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APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
March 21, 1989 10:00 p.m. Eastern Time
Topic: Programming Utilities and Environments
Forum Leader: James Luther (AFL Jim)
AFL Jim Howdy
AFL Dyfet Hello Jim!
HazelH1 Hi guys
Dave Lyons (No parentheses needed, Joe. :-)
Matt DTS You guys should have seen Mr. Luther today reconstructing our
offices like a real pro...
AFA Gary J Hi Jim!
AFL Dyfet Oh my...
Dave Lyons <sniff> _My_ TNs haven't arrived....
Matt DTS ...makes me wonder if maybe he missed his calling (or at least one
of them).
JSchober Yeah, but aesthetics, Dave. :) BTW, I sent a mild nasty-gram on
info-apple
JSchober about your comment that I don't like ShareWare. :)
AFL Jim :P Matt
AFL Marty Hi Jim
Dave Lyons (If you want aestehtics, use "true" instead of "1=1" :-)
AFL Marty [[[Hazel]]]
Matt DTS (Did you get that done, anyway? Did you pile all the garbage in
Dave's office like we said?)
HazelH1 HI Marty :)
JSchober LOL... hey, good point, Dave! Forgot THAT... (not like I use it
often or
JSchober anything...)
AFL Jim Dave, I'm still giving passing out constant reminders that we need
the March
AFL Jim Tech Notes in text files.
JSchober Hi Bill...
Lombar I've never been in here before, what's the etiquette like?
Dave Lyons What's this...do I have an office?
BillP Hi Joe
HazelH1 Howdy Bill!
Matt DTS They still have to be converted by hand, and they just haven't
been done yet. <shrugging>
AFA Gary J Welcome, Lombar.
Matt DTS Dave: Yeah, but you don't wanna go in it yet... <evil grin>
Dave Lyons What etiquette? :)
BillP Hi Hazel! Been a long time!
AFL Dyfet Welcome aboard Lombar...
AFL Marty Down the hall Dave.... to the left.... tile walls, tile floor :)
Lombar Thanx.
AFL Jim Well, let's get started here...
Matt DTS or there...
AFA John Hi Hazel!
Dave Lyons :)
Matt DTS (Sorry - I'm in /behave mode now...)
Lombar :)
AFL Jim Welcome to the Apple II Development Forum! Tonight, our topic is
programming
AFL Jim utilities and programming environments. We'll follow forum
protocol, so if you
AFL Jim have a question, type a question mark on a line by itself. If you
have a
AFL Jim comment on the current topic, type an exclamation point on a line
by itself.
AFL Jim We'll keep track of who asked to speak first and call on you when
it's your
AFL Jim turn.
Parik Dude ?
AFA Gary J Q = Parik
Matt DTS [I hate software]
AFL Jim To start off with, I'd like to introduce my replacement here on
AppleLink (yes
AFL Jim I'm leaving the ranks of AFLs). Starting in April, the new Forum
Leader will
AFL Jim be Dave Sugar!
AFA Gary J Welcome, Dave!!
Matt DTS <fanfare and tocatta>
AFL Jim Say Hi, Dave.
Parik Dude Hi, Dave.
AFL Dyfet Thank you! I hope to keep things smooth during the change...
Dave Lyons Hi, Dave.
JSchober Hi, Dave! (Dave L, stop talking to yourself...)
AFL Dyfet Dave's recursive
Parik Dude What's Dyfet mean? (not my question :)
Matt DTS If you need anything from DTS, be sure to ask us so we can ignore
you as equally as we did Jim. <grin>
JSchober heheh
AFL Marty (recursive = swears repeatedly)
BillP :)
AFL Dyfet Older form of David....so I wouldn't get confused with a certain
other Dave :)
AFL Jim I'll be here still, but in an unofficial capacity.
Parik Dude unofficial capacitance is the best.
BillP me too :)
AFL Jim You mean MacDave, Dave??
AFA Gary J :)
AFL Dyfet MacDave! :) Another one!
Matt DTS I can see how "AFL Sugar" might lead to some weird E-mail, that's
true.
JSchober LOL Matt...
AFL Jim Let's get on to the questions... Parik, I believe you are first in
the queue.
AFL Jim GA
AFL Dyfet :)
Lombar I hate to sound impatient, especially for a newcomer, but my VISA
doesn't
Parik Dude In the AUT forum, in INITs library a file that "speeds up text
output by alot.
Lombar stretch very far...
AFA Gary J (Looks like Matt has a bug in his "behave mode" :)
Parik Dude Has anyone used this? Is it a RAM driver? Just got it today, and
wondering
Parik Dude what it does. I think Orca was fassst...
Parik Dude think = thought (but I still think) ga
AFA Gary J Q = Parik
AFL Jim I haven't seen it. Anyone else?
Matt DTS !
AFL Jim GA Matt
Matt DTS No.
JSchober ! (shuffling up as AUT rep...)
AFL Jim GA Joe
Matt DTS It could be an INIT that speeds up QuickDraw text drawing, not
actual text screen I/O...
Matt DTS ...but I think I'll let Joe talk. GA
JSchober It patches into the Pascal text-screen (80 col... well, I guess 40
col, too,
AFA Gary J Q = Parik (Joe)
JSchober if you wanted) Text Toolset. I don't know WHAT it does to that
toolset, but
JSchober anything that uses Text Tools on a Pascal driver goes like greased
lightning.
JSchober ORCA and APW seem to have the best improvements. I haven't
noticed any
Matt DTS I can *guess*...
AFL Dyfet !
JSchober compatibility problems or anything like that. GA...
AFL Jim Dave, GA
AFA Gary J Q = Parik (Dave)
AFL Dyfet How does it compare to the GS/OS console driver?
AFL Jim (Matt, you can type an !, too)
Dave Lyons !
Matt DTS ! (Oh, I thought my last ! was still active. My mistake)
AFL Jim Joe, comparison??
JSchober It's faster, Dave. It's REAAAL fast. Short bugger (4 blks),
too.
JSchober <that's unofficial, BTW, I can time it if you really want...>
AFA Gary J Q = Parik (Dave L, Matt)
AFL Jim Dave Lyons, GA
AFL Jim (and I think I'll start using Dyfet :)
Dave Lyons We're talking about Paul Elseth's FASTEXT init, right?
JSchober (just type "Dyfet" 20 times fast...)
JSchober Righto, Dave.
Dave Lyons If you wanna know what it does...it replaces a few functions in
the Text Tools:
Dave Lyons specifically
Dave Lyons Just a sec:
AFP Draco Dyfet Dyfet Dyfet Dyfet Dyfet Dyfet Dyfet Dyfet Dyfet Dyfet Dyfet
Dyfet Dyfet Dyfet Dyfet Dyfet
JSchober (that was 16 times and slow... ;)
AFL Dyfet !
Matt DTS We now return to our program.
Dave Lyons Geez...printer jammed. Anyway, it replaces WriteCString and
WriteString,
Dave Lyons mostly, and it checks for the special case of printing to slot 3
with no
Dave Lyons the firmware separately for each character. I keep it installed
all the time--
AFA Gary J Ooops
Dave Lyons speeds things up a lot. (done)
Parik Dude ? (another question)
AFL Jim Matt, GA
AFA Gary J Q = Parik (Matt, Dyfet)
AFA Gary J Q + Parik
Matt DTS Since the Text Tools are mainly an arbiter, they pass everything
along to the firmware, when some...
Matt DTS ...of the stuff might be doable a little faster, as this init
shows. The speed increase is quite...
Matt DTS ...nice, but we still recommend that programmers use the Console
driver because it's not...
Matt DTS ...slot dependent. (See GS/OS TN #4 for more details, I think.)
GA.
AFL Jim Dyfet, GA
AFA Gary J Q = Parik (Dyfet), Parik
AFL Dyfet It seems DL and Matt just answered both parts of my
question/statement! GA
Parik Dude Has anyone here actually GOT Merlin 16+? I'm looking for
something that is
Matt DTS Ha! We got him! Hazing has begun!
Parik Dude like Orca/M but a faster assembler & linker... ga
DennisDoms !
AFL Jim Somebody?? Anybody? GA Dennis
Lombar ?
Parik Dude (don't say "No" again Matt... :)
DennisDoms `I've got it; I wouldn't claim to know it well yet.
Dave Lyons !
AFA Gary J Q = Parik (Dennis, Dave), Lombar
DennisDoms It does have provisions for importing ORCA files (HodgePodge is
used...
AFL Jim Done Dennis??
AFL Jim oops
DennisDoms as an example of a conversion).
DennisDoms GA (Done...typing "blind" :).
Dave Lyons I've got it too, but haven't used it a lot. If you're looking for
something a
AFL Jim GA Dave
Dave Lyons _little_ bit faster, Merlin 16+ is not what you want. It's a LOT
faster. :)
Parik Dude :)
JSchober heheh
Dave Lyons (Whoops...you didn't even say "a little." There I go making a
minimal amount
Parik Dude thanks, GA
Dave Lyons of sense again...oh, well.) done.
AFL Jim How's linking to other languages?
Dave Lyons !
AFL Jim GA Dave
Dave Lyons It can be done, but it's an extra step, I think--normally it
doesn't generate
Dave Lyons OMF files, but it's an option.
Dave Lyons (done)
AFA Gary J Q = Parik (Dave), Lombar
AFL Jim GA with your question, Lombar
Lombar I've just ordered ORCA/M. I like the reviews on the ORCA
products, but admit
Lombar ignorance.....
Lombar I want one shell to eventually do everything. Can I add, say, the
Merlin
AFP Draco ?
Lombar assembler to the ORCA shell and use the ORCA pascal?
Matt DTS !
AFA Gary J Q = Lombar (Matt), Kent
AFL Jim I don't think you can add Merlin to the APW or ORCA environment
unless Glen
AFL Jim Bredon has really changed him design :)
AFL Jim GA Matt
Lombar It's been four years since I did any compiler-type programming....
DONE
AFL Jim Him = His
Matt DTS Merlin is one of the three IIgs compilers or assemblers you can
NOT add to the ORCA shell...
Matt DTS (the other two being MPW IIgs Assembler and MPW IIgs C :-)
However, you have the concept right...
AFA Gary J :)
Matt DTS ...in that multiple languages may be added to ORCA or APW and all
used under one shell. It's just...
Matt DTS ...that Merlin is not available in a version that runs under the
ORCA/APW shell. It has it's own.
Matt DTS GA.
Lombar ?
AFL Jim GA Lombar
AFA Gary J Q = Lombar, Kent
AFL Jim (you still have the floor)
Lombar Is it best to use all one brand of product line, or is it fairly
safe to
Lombar mix and match without worrying about compatabilities?
AFL Jim You're fairly safe mixing one high level language with assembly,
but you
AFL Jim may run into some problems if you try to mix two high level
languages such as
AFL Jim Pascal and C (or for that matter, ORCA Pascal and TML Pascal).
AFL Jim GA
Lombar I thought that according to what I read about the TML/ORCA shells,
you could
Lombar mix and match C, Pascal, and Assy. without any problems. Anyone
have exper-
Lombar ience with this?
AFL Jim You can, but....
AFL Jim The high level languages all use slightly different ways of
passing parameters
AFL Jim and may depend on certain global routines and variables to be
present at run-
Lombar Okay, I get it. I'll just forge ahead and stick with one brand of
environ.
AFL Jim time. You have to really know what the languages are doing at a
fairly low
AFL Jim level to make them talk to each other.
Matt DTS !
AFA Gary J Q = Lombar (Matt), Kent
AFL Jim assembly is the common denominator.
AFL Jim GA Matt
Lombar I'm done for now. Thanks.
Matt DTS For this purpose, you can consider APW and ORCA to be the "same
environment"; to wit:
Matt DTS You can use APW C or the "APW version" of TML Pascal with the ORCA
system with no problems. GA.
Lombar One more question...
AFL Jim Kent, GA with your question...
Matt DTS (uh-oh. Question contention)
AFP Draco no let him have it
AFL Jim OK, GA Lombar
AFA Gary J Q = Lombar, Kent
Lombar I only have 512K :(. Are there any pascal compilers I can use
besides Apple's
Lombar I want to stick with a desktop environ
AFL Dyfet !
AFA Gary J !
AFA Gary J Q = Lombar (Dyfet), Kent
AFL Jim Nope, TML requires 768K and ORCA requires a Meg I think.
AFL Jim GA Dyfet
AFL Dyfet I would suggest TML, which has a full desktop environment, but, as
mentioned,
AFL Dyfet it requires 768K...GA
Lombar OK. GA Kent.
AFP Draco Thanks... I wanted to change to subject a little.
AFP Draco Dyfet (Dave): What's the latest word on COMMAND.COM? When (if
ever) will we see an upgrade?
AFL Dyfet !
AFL Jim GA Dyfet
AFA Gary J Q = Kent (Dyfet)
AFL Jim :)
AFL Dyfet No, I didn't bribe Kent for that question :). Well, we have taken
Command.COM
AFL Dyfet back from PinPoint, and we will be re-releasing Command.COM
'release II', with
AFP Draco I LOVE Command.COM, that's why I asked.
AFL Dyfet all the goodies we have and with Xterm 2.0 as a complete package.
For those
Matt DTS ! ("We" = ?)
AFL Dyfet unclear as to what Command.COM is, it is a programmable shell
and
AFL Dyfet communications environment for ProDOS 8 with MANY features and
over 200 command
AFL Dyfet programs. (done...I think...:)
AFL Jim Dyfet, WE = ??
AFL Dyfet Oh, sorry, that would be WE as in HyperDyne Software...
AFL Jim Dave, would you like to tell us what else HyperDyne is up to?
AFL Jim (giving you this las chance to soapbox it before you do it and
look like a
AFL Dyfet Sure. HDS is putting out Bbasic // for the Apple // (ProDOS 8
based) also, and
AFL Jim self promoter :)
AFL Marty (BBasic???)
JSchober <Blankenship BASIC, Applesoft with a kick... it's great!> <===
unbiased, too!
AFL Dyfet we will have a number of surprises (GS specific) by the end of the
year. HDS
AFL Jim HDS = Hyper Dave Sugar
AFL Dyfet also has an add-on toolkit for Command.COM. Bbasic // is an
enhanced Basic
AFP Draco Dave - will you be posting some of your COM files soon?
AFL Marty (must be too much sugar in his diet :)
AFL Dyfet programming environment. It's fully structured, has better disk
and graphics
AFP Draco (( Despite rumors to the contrary, Sugar Daddy is NOT dave's
father! ))
AFA Gary J heheh
AFL Dyfet support, and in many ways extends Applesoft into a very useful
environment.
AFL Marty :)
DwightW1 how does bbasic compare with tml basic?
AFL Dyfet In regards to COM programs (in regards to Kent's comment), most
everything we
JSchober !
AFA Gary J Q = (Joe)
AFL Dyfet have will be included already with release II of Command.COM.
(done???)
AFL Jim GA Joe
JSchober I figure Dave could use outside comments. ;) BBasic sits there
and pretends
JSchober it's Applesoft -- until you start programming, you can't tell it's
not. But
JSchober it offers all sorts of commands -- kinda like the GS toolbox in
BASIC; that's
JSchober the best way I can think of to describe it. (Although, unless I
really missed
JSchober something, it does =not= support the GS specially; it's 128K //e c
GS...) GA!
JSchober :)
AFL Jim Dwight, does that explain thing OK?
AFL Dyfet (good try...most of our products seem to defy easy description
:)
DwightW1 yes
JSchober :) Well, that's true... ;)
AFL Jim Well, the queue is empty.... Does anyone have anything new to
bring up this
AFL Jim week?
Dave Lyons MIDI?
Matt DTS (oh, God...)
Dave Lyons I managed to play a note yesterday. :-)
AFL Jim GA Dave
JSchober ()()()
AFL Marty C#
Dave Lyons The Toolbox Reference Update info is incomplete, but along with
JSchober No, no, Bb, Marty! Sheesh...
Dave Lyons the System Disk 3.2 release notes and Jim Mensch's article in Dec
88 Call-
AFA Gary J Coming soon - to a shareware board near you... Dave Lyon's "Nifty
Tunes"!
JSchober ROTFL Gary!
Dave Lyons A.P.P.L.E., I think it's all there.
AFL Dyfet !
DaviesDoug yah
Lombar --all done in C#
AFL Jim GA Dyfet
AFL Marty Loony Tunes?
AFA Gary J :)
AFL Dyfet I was swamped in flashes...I just wanted to add that if anyone
would like
AFL Dyfet further info on HDS products, feel free to leave me a mail message
with your
AFL Dyfet address and I will see the person I have that does HDS mailings
now gets it...
AFL Dyfet (done with commercial)
JSchober "And now... Purina Cat Chow."
AFL Marty Tim!!
AFL TimB Marty!!
JSchober (Howdy, Tim!)
AFL Jim Hi Tim
AFL Jim Tim, I was about to mention your conference this week, but I'll
let you do it.
AFL Jim GA Tim
AFL TimB OK!
DwightW1 ?
AFA Gary J Q = Tim, Dwight
Matt DTS (How con-VEEEE-nient)
AFL TimB Tomorrow at the Apple // Music and Sound Forum at 10pm EST we'll
be ...
AFL TimB introducing Matt Denman, Apple Sound Tool programmer
extraordinaire!....
AFL TimB We'll also be giving away THREE HOURS of AppleLink - PE time to
the person...
Dave Lyons Uh oh, we're in treble now....
AFL TimB who asks (in my opinion) the best question.
JSchober ::bad pun alert, Dave Lyons!::
Matt DTS (I'm gonna thrash that boy when he gets here...)
AFL TimB So be there or be a four equal sized object!
AFL Marty Joe... don't harass the staff :)
AFA Gary J :)
Dave Lyons Take "note" of the prize...don't let anybody "beat" you to
it....
AFL TimB (Why's that Mr Matt?)
Matt DTS (not Matt, Dave!)
AFL TimB (I'm a poet too)
AFL Jim OK GA with your question Dwight
JSchober Ugh... get Dave OUT of here! ::groan::
DwightW1 dave, i want your 'nifty list' shareware program...and i plan to
pay for...
Dave Lyons And I'm going to fix the rest of your appliances to blow up on
you.... :)
AFL Jim (and hush up enveryone else)
AFA Gary J Q = Dwight
AFL TimB :X
THE GIBBER Well....At least the Bass buns are out of the way ;)
THE GIBBER oops puns
DwightW1 it... so give me the cost and where to send for it please....I
NEED IT!!
AFL Jim Go Dave... a sale is made.
AFL Marty This is your lucky day Dwight! :)
AFA Gary J Q = Dwight ($Dave$)
Dave Lyons Okay, my address is PO Box 287, North Liberty IA 52317, and Nifty
List is
AFL Dyfet (and another starving programmer gets supper tonight)
Dave Lyons fifteen bucks. If you're in a hurry, download it from ADV or AUT,
but you'll
Dave Lyons get a disk in any case when I get your bucks.
DwightW1 I have no doubt you have put much effort into the production of
your .....
AFL Jim or dollars as they're known outside of North Liberty...
Dave Lyons (And if you already had Nifty List installed, you could do a
screen dump now
Dave Lyons instead of writing down that address. :-)
AFA Gary J :)
AFL Dyfet (Nifty List truelly is)
DwightW1 program, so i will send for it prepaid AS ALL PEOPLE THAT WANT
SHAREWARE
DwightW1 thanks dave
Matt DTS (if he already had Nifty List, he wouldn't need to see the address
on-line)
Dave Lyons (That's true, too.)
AFA Gary J He'll have to change the address, now - to California
Dave Lyons (Matt thinks Nifty List's user interface is the most user-friendly
one in the
Dave Lyons Whole World, by the way. :)
JSchober hehehe
AFL Marty ?
DwightW1 let's hope that is not necessary to change addresses
AFA Gary J Q = Marty
AFL Jim GA Marty
AFL Marty How much time will you be spending in the DTS jacuzzi, Dave? :)
AFA Gary J Just assign a handle to your address, Dave.
DaviesDoug and matt doesn't even like "bill and ted's excellent adventure"
so...
DaviesDoug he should know
Matt DTS ("The testmonial was portrayed by actors and is not intended to
imply a true endorsement.") :-)
AFL Marty (the hour's up) :)
Matt DTS DTS Jacuzzi? Where?
JSchober That's true, anyone who would want to use NiftyList would probably
be able to
JSchober deref a handle...
Matt DTS I keep asking for one and Rilla keeps saying "Maybe"...
AFL Marty Rilla should learn to share.
Matt DTS (we have a sink with a vortex under a hot water tap; does that
count?)
AFL Dyfet (does Dave now become Dave DTS?)
Dave Lyons The jacuzi is where you throw the old GS batteries once they start
leaking,
Dave Lyons right?
JSchober ugh...
Matt DTS Sure. Then YOU go sit in it.
Dave Lyons Beats me...I may keep my current screen name if that doesn't
bother anybody
AFL Marty only when occupied :)
AFA Gary J That would certainly stir things up! :)
JSchober Boy, those three'll make a team, alright. :-)
Dave Lyons too terribly much....
AFL Marty The Three Amigos?
AFP Draco Dave - I'm afraid we might confuse you with a civilian.
Dave Lyons (That way you don't even need to swirl or heat the water w/
outside forces.)
JSchober <=== going to die of pun attack in another few seconds... LOL
Marty...
Matt DTS Dave? Civil? It'll never happen.
AFP Draco Joey - Pun stroke?
Dave Lyons :)
JSchober Righto, Kent. :) ::slump, dead::
Matt DTS "And with a stroke of a pun, the mighty were felled."
Matt DTS (I can just see AFL Jim shaking his head and mumbling "I'm almost
out! Hee hee hee!")
AFP Draco Wil will PUNish them PUNctiaully
AFL Scott And now.. straight from the from... Nah....
AFL Jim Well.... thanks for stopping in tonight and remember to stop into
the auditori
Dave Lyons The pun is mightier than the sored? or something....
AFL Jim um next week when you'll get a change to talk to Tom Weishaar,
some editors
JSchober LOL.... no, Scott, don't try it... ;) oh my... these =are=
deadly... :))
Dave Lyons You could probably confuse me with a simple card trick
actually...no
Dave Lyons civilians necessary.
AFL Jim from Call-A.P.P.L.E. and Nibble.
AFL Jim See you there!
AFA Gary J ()()()()
AFL TimB Moral: Never trust a developer from the mid-west!
AFL Jim Good night everyone (I have to run)
DwightW1 well, good-bye everybody, and again thanks dave