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APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
January 3, 1989 10:00 pm Eastern
Topic: An open discussion
Forum Leader: James Luther (AFL Jim)
AFL Jim Hi Mike!
Mike Lutz Hi Jim!!
AFL Jim Howdy, Gary
AFL Jim Like the new buttons?
AFL Jim :)
AFA Gary J Hi, Jim, Mike
AFA Gary J YES!
AFL Jim We have the power!
AFA Gary J :)
Mike Lutz You can do some really weird things with my software and
keywords....
AFL Jim Mike: we can finally release files real time now!
AFL Jim Like what, Mike?
Mike Lutz Hu??
Mike Lutz I can do two things at once... It is weird...
AFL Jim What wierd things?
AFA Gary J hehe...I thought that banner said, "Learn the best software
BUGS..." at first
AFA Gary J :)
AFL Jim What software?
Mike Lutz Ok....I'll run you though....
AFA Parik Hello all.
AFA Gary J Hi Parik.
AFL Jim Hi Parik
Mike Lutz I logon, do an apple - k for a key word and do adv...
AFA Parik I feel happy, I have software library power now. :)
AFA Gary J I enjoyed your upload.
AFA Gary J YES! Power!
AFA Gary J :)
AFA Parik I can validate files... yippeee...:)
AFA Parik Thanks Gary.
AFL Jim I enjoyed your source code :) (ga Mike, I'm listening)
AFA Parik Hi Scott
AFL Jim hi Scott
AFA Gary J Yes, the source code is very interesting, Parik.
AFA Gary J Hi Scott
ScottG25 Hi Parik, Jim, Gary, Mike!
Mike Lutz then I get the menu bar and scute over to the post offist...
Mike Lutz and pick read mail
AFL Jim and..??
Mike Lutz But it (as in alink) pulls down the ADV menu under the post offise
menu...
AFL Jim Hi Steve
AFA Parik HI STEVE
SEGlass Good Evening.
AFA Parik (damn cap locks key :)
AFA Gary J Hi Steve
Mike Lutz so then I pick enter chat or what ever it is...
Mike Lutz then my mail widow pops up...
AFL Jim Hi John, Coach
Coach101 Good evening Jim
AFA Gary J Hi Coach, John
AFL Jim IIGS or IIe/IIc software, Mike?
Mike Lutz but before I can read it I get put in here.....weird hu :|
AFA Parik Hi Coach & John!
AFA John Evening everyone!
Mike Lutz so here I am..
Mike Lutz IIe/c
AFL Jim does it happen every time?
AFA Parik Hi Dave
Dave Lyons howdy
AFA Gary J Maybe this software bug is just a good thing for the Development
Forum, Mike?
AFA Gary J :)
AFL Jim Hi Dave
AFA Gary J Hi Dave
AFA John Hello, Dave
Mike Lutz Hiya Dave!!
AFA Parik A mail window shouldn't pop up, should it?
Dave Lyons Howdy, all....
AFA Parik Hi John!
Mike Lutz Nope it happens with every keyword...
AFA John Hi Parik.
THE GIBBER Yep....A slow Node to Alink :)
AFL Jim Sounds like your disk is glitched, Mike.
AFA Parik Other John, John. But hi anyways. :)
THE GIBBER I hate delays in the net.... I have to think about what I am going
to say :)
Mike Lutz if I pick something in the ADV menu right when I get here I just
get another..
Mike Lutz copy if the menu...
THE GIBBER Hi All.....How is everything going in Development Land????
AFA Parik That happens to me too Mike, you've got to let the software finish
what its
AFA Parik doing currently. When you hit ADV, just let it put the menu on
the screen
AFA Parik before using up/down arrows.
Mike Lutz I don't know ... Alink is doing a lot of the work...
Dave Lyons Mike, I've had that happen to me, too. There _are_ some weird
things that
Dave Lyons can happen w/ ALPE & the timing of windows appearing.
AFA Parik (hehe, ever get Flashnotes in the middle of a window? :)
AFL Jim I always hit open-apple-period to kill the menus as they drop.
Mike Lutz I'll talk to you voice later dave I'll tell you it then...
AFA Gary J I wish there was a mouse location that would be the same as
hitting open-apple
AFA Gary J period, so I could stay off of the keys.
AFA Parik Hi Mark
Mark1000 Hiya Parik
AFL Jim Parik, I looked thru your source code quickly for UNPACK. It
doesn't handle
AFL Jim anything but the MAIN information block. Right?
AFA Parik Right.
AFA Parik It just works with the graphics screen, not SCBs or such. It
always unpacks to
AFA Parik a $C1 file.
AFA Parik Hi Tim, Marty, Bruce, and Matt
THE GIBBER Hi Marty!!!
AFA Gary J That would be the only way it could work, then. (Being $C1
only)
AFL Marty Hi all
AFA John Hi Marty, Matt, Tim, Bruce, Jack and Mark.
AFA Parik (It DOES unpack the SCBs and such, it just doesn't unpack SCB type
blocks that
AFA Parik doesn't contain pictures)
AFA Parik Hi Deadhead.
DeadHead13 Hi all
AFL Jack hiya :)
DeadHead13 What's the current talk about?
AFA Parik Hiya Sarge!
AFL Jim Nothing much yet, Deadhead. We were talking about the source code
Parik
AFL Jim uploaded for unpacking Apple Preferred format pictures.
DeadHead13 Mind if I jump in
AFA Parik Lot of files released today, eh? Wonder why...:)
AFL Jim GA
AFA Gary J :)
AFA Gary J Yeah, Parik!
THE GIBBER Which files parik
AFA Parik Hi Kathy
DeadHead13 O.K. I develop for a firm using UCSD (ugh...), and I recently got
my hands
AFA Kathy Hi!
AFA Parik John, files all across AppleLink are being unbonded from their
hidden status
AFA Parik as we talk.
DeadHead13 on Kyan pascal, BUT...
AFL Jim I case anyone wonders, we finally got the online tools to release
files anytime
AFL Jim during the day or night.
DeadHead13 but the but is that I cannot reach them in any way to get the
extensions,
Dave Lyons Keen!
AFA Parik Hi Jono & Mike!
DeadHead13 latest version, or know even if it is worth my while to deal with
it.
JonoS Hi Parik..
THE GIBBER Ohhhhhhhh.......that is great..... Now I have DL them....:(
Dave Lyons I don't think anybody's heard a peep out of Kyan lately....
AFL Jim I haven't been able to get Kyan to respond in months either,
DeadHead.
DeadHead13 Anyone know about them?
THE GIBBER All these files and so little time to Down load ;)
AFA Parik Hello Mark.
MarkHulme1 Hiya
AFL Jim Last I knew, they were going to pay for articles printed in their
newsletter,
AFA Parik Hello Omnitreant and Oli.
DeadHead13 I was thinking of maybe sending them a registerd letter, because
they haven't
AFL Jim they printed a couple of mine and then disappeared. They have an
answering
DeadHead13 responded to my other letters.
AFL Jim machine that catches the phone, but they never call back.
AFL Jim (they = Kyan)
DeadHead13 Should we get the Better Business Bureau after them??
AFA Kathy brb
DeadHead13 This behavior is dispicable
AFA Parik Hi Floyd & Paul
PGauthier Good Evening.
AFL Floyd Hi, all.
THE GIBBER Hi Floyd!!! What is up??
AFA Parik (bet Floyd is sick of the number $0046 :)
DeadHead13 brb
AFL Floyd Not much. Still trying to recover from New Years! ;)
AFL Jim DeadHead, which toolkits from Kyan are you looking for? I can
probably tell
AFL Jim you if the search is worth your time or not (I have most of them
if not all).
THE GIBBER <------Still recovering from New Years :(
THE GIBBER <-------3 day of Hangover and still counting :(
DeadHead13 Ok, I realy don't know -- I want to develop in double hi res with
full control
DeadHead13 of the serial port
AFL Floyd (Parik: You got that right! I'm in the process of doing my own
documentation for ACU to replace...
AFL Floyd what Quantum has up)
JonoS Floyd: I was wondering why ACU was created when it packs only a
few blocks..
AFA Parik heh
AFA Gary J Re-hi, Kathy
JonoS smaller than BLU.
AFL Jim Kyan's MouseText and Graphics toolkits both eat so much memory
that you don't
AFA Kathy :)
AFL TimB Floyd, you're typing seems slower too! You really are recovering
from New...
AFL TimB Years!
AFL TimB you're=your
AFL Floyd Jono: ACU doesn't use the Binary II file format. It uses it's own
more flexible one. AppleLink
AFL Jim have enough left to write any kind of application. To be exact,
you have 8.25K
Omnitreant Hi everyone. Anybody here familiar with programmin the SHR
screen?
DeadHead13 AS far as double-hi res, I don't see it taking much more since
they don't
AFL Floyd doesn't require Binary II since it maintains all file
attributes.
AFA Parik I've programmed it quite a bit Omnitreant.
DeadHead13 support the upper bank anyway
AFL Jim left after the MouseText kit and the runtime library are loaded.
AFL Floyd (TimB: Flashnote city! ;)
DeadHead13 That is ridiculous
AFA Parik (protocol, anyone? :)
AFA Gary J Q = DeadHead, Omnitreant
AFL TimB Floyd: %)
ScottG25 ?
DeadHead13 Gary, what is Omnitreant?
THE GIBBER Hi Dennis!!!
THE GIBBER *
Omnitreant Parik: We're trying to do the absolute fastest
copy-buffer-to-screen routine,
Omnitreant and were wondering if LDA,STA pairs or MVN would be fastest...
AFL Jim Hi Dennis
Omnitreant I am an Omnitreant, that's who!
AFA Parik Using LDA with direct page is the fastest Omnitreant.
AFA Gary J :)
DeadHead13 Oh, sorry
Matt DTS LDA/STA pairs are faster, Omnitreant.
Omnitreant But doesn't one pair take about 12 cycles compared to 7*n for
mvn?
JonoS <-- Got dumped.
CecilFret What's happening?
AFA Gary J Hi Cecil
CecilFret Hey, Doms. Cleaning up my phone book. Last digit of your home
phone = 6??
AFA Parik Omnitreant, LDA [0],y takes 7-8 clock cycles.
Omnitreant Actually, tonite WE are Omnitreant...my friend is here on the
other keyboard
Omnitreant Yes, but you need a store too< the friendo
SEGlass The fastest way to move depends on where you are going.
DeadHead13 Gary... could we discuss my problem
AFA Parik (holding off till Deadheads problem is finished)
AFL Floyd What about setting the screen area as the stack and using PHA?
THE GIBBER Hi Cecil
CecilFret Nice to "see" you again gibber.
Omnitreant That sounds interesting Floyd...
DeadHead13 I don't thinkl it is that big a deal, but I realy NEED a real
development
DeadHead13 system for the //e that IS NOT assembler ... I don't mind but my
job wants
DeadHead13 something that is easy to maintain. I personally find aztec the
pits, and have
THE GIBBER Nice to see you.... I am still working on that problem
ScottG25 That would only work for pure word transfers, tho, you would waste
time if you
ScottG25 had a mask, no?
DeadHead13 been using UCSD. I recently purchased Kyan to see if I could use
it, but I am
DennisDoms (Where did you find Kyan?)
DeadHead13 unable to contact them. Therefore I was wondering if any of you
would help me
DeadHead13 with Kyan??? :)
DeadHead13 Believe it or not, off the dusty shelves of the APDA store (they
had one in the
AFL Jim Deadhead, as I said before, I've tried to contact Kyan as have
others and they
DeadHead13 store on the shelf and sent it to me!)
AFL Jim don't answer.
AFA Gary J Q = DeadHead
ScottG25 ?
AFA Gary J Q = DeadHead, Scott
AFA Gary J (Sorry Scott!)
AFA Parik (guess what folks... this room is full!)
ScottG25 <No Problem!:)>
AFL Jim If I lived in San Francisco, I'd go beat on their door, but I'm in
Kansas City
AFL Jim so....
AFL Oli (No Parik... limit here is 50
AFL Floyd DeadHead: In my opinion the ONLY development system for a //e is
assembler. Sorry.
AFL Floyd Aren't these 50 person rooms?
AFA John (No -- 50 people is the limit Parik. :)
AFA Parik (Try getting in Oli. My other account just did. I'm in Developer
Chat A)
JonoS <-- Lives half a mile from Kyan. But never bought anything from
them.
DeadHead13 Well, I guess I'm pretty much done. If anyone wants to help me
outide of the
AFA Gary J Q = Deadhead, Scott
DeadHead13 forumn, thanks. Jonos... could you possibly see if they are still
alive??
AFL Jim Dennis, waht to give us you list of other high level languages for
the //e?
AFL Floyd <Oops, are we using protocol?>
DeadHead13 Or if they have a local phone beside the one they advertise I
could actually
JonoS If you give me the address # I'll check tommorow...
DennisDoms I came late...what has been covered?
DeadHead13 reach them at and leave me Email?
Omnitreant ?
AFA Gary J Q = Deadhead, Scott, Omnitreant
DeadHead13 I'll Email the address to you, thanks all. I agree with you Floyd,
but the boss
AFL Jim Deadhead is looking for a high level language for the //e.
DeadHead13 is the boss. All done, next question...scott
ScottG25 The question Omnitreant asked brings up another interesting thing,
how _does_
AFL Jim OK, Scott GA
DennisDoms Orhaned - ZBASIC, WSM C, Kyan Pascal, ???.
ScottG25 one calculate the total time in cycles an instruction executing in
fast memory
AFA Parik Hi Stowell.
AFA Gary J Q = Scott, Omnitreant
ScottG25 takes when the operand is in slow ram? I was thinking that it is
the same
DennisDoms (orhaned=orphaned) Only "major" ones I know of are Manx/Aztec C
and PROMAL...
SEGlass !
AFA Parik Hi Don.
ScottG25 cycle count, but the time is different... I am doing the same
thing as OT
ScottG25 is and would like my routine to be the fastest possible, too!
ScottG25 Done
AFL Jim GA Steve
AFA Gary J Q = Scott (Steve), Omnitreant
DennisDoms oops, Micol BASIC..I'd have to agree with Floyd that assembler
seems to end..
DennisDoms up being more viable in the long run.
SEGlass Code running in slow ram, runs slow (at 1megh) no matter what
addresses
SEGlass it accesses.
AFL Jim (thanks Dennis :)
SEGlass The number of cycles is always the same.
AFA Parik ?
SEGlass The length of the cycles just differs.
SEGlass ga
AFA Gary J Q = Scott (Steve), Omnitreant, Parik
ScottG25 To limit time, then limit references to screen memory, no?
AFL Jim So, leave your code in fast RAM, Scott.
SEGlass To limit time (ie go fast) run code in fast RAM and access slow
RAM
ScottG25 It IS in fast ram, Jim..
SEGlass as infrequently as possible.
SEGlass The most common accesses to slow RAM are writes to the screen.
SEGlass If we are talking text screen, I don't think counting cycles will
make
SEGlass a difference. But in Graphics, there can be a lot of accesses.
SEGlass For example to draw a dot on the screen you have to read the
screen and write
SEGlass the screen, both accesses go slow for some of the read and write
cycles.
SEGlass The number of slow cycles depends on the addressing mode you
use.
SEGlass I don't remember all the differences off hand, but the more direct
the mode
SEGlass the faster it is. GA
ScottG25 so then this would save time, no? Lda [Screen],y Eor
[Offscreen],y BEQ Skip
AFA Gary J Q = Scott (Steve), Omnitreant, Parik
SEGlass As apposed to storing anyway?
ScottG25 Skip terminates all Screen memory references in this time through
an indexed
ScottG25 loop... No?
SEGlass I'm still confused. What are you doing?
ScottG25 Yes, Steve, as opposed to storing.... I'm moving contents of an
offscreen port
ScottG25 to the screen, through a mask... and only writing words to the
screen that are
ScottG25 different... GA
SEGlass Is the mask usually FFFF?
SEGlass Or is it only rarely FFFF.
AFL Jim Scott, if a lot of the contents are different, then your code will
run slower.
ScottG25 Yes in areas where it is ok to store... in areas that are masked
it is zeros...
ScottG25 I know... but not much slower... I think...
AFA Gary J Q = Scott (Steve), Omnitreant, Parik
SEGlass What I mean to say is that if you can test the mask for FFFF
quickly, you can
SEGlass avoid reading the screen to begin with.
ScottG25 And [Mask]y
SEGlass Just store with the mask is FFFF. Avoiding the read saves time.
SEGlass (That should read: Just store when the mask is FFFF.
Matt DTS Even just storing when the mask is non-zero will save a lot of
time by...
Matt DTS ...eliminating the write to slow RAM when you won't be changing
the value there
ScottG25 That's what I do, only the EOR [Screen],y is testing for
difference in the
ScottG25 screen and offscreen buffers, This serves as kind of a look ahead
function
DeadHead13 Bye Y'all, thanks for all the help (I'm not from down south!)
DeadHead13 :)
AFA Parik :)
AFA Gary J Q = Scott (Steve), Omnitreant, Parik
SEGlass You can copy data through a mask to a destination in five
instructions.
AFA Parik All these ANDs, ORs, they need a WHY opcode.
SEGlass Adding any testing usually slows you down. The big win comes if
you can
SEGlass decide if a whole line will not be masked.
SEGlass This happens in QuickDraw a lot. When the clip and vis regions
are rects,
SEGlass the drawing is much faster than when they are not.
AFA Kathy Day job calls. :( Byeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.... :<<<<<
AFA Gary J Bye, Kathy
ScottG25 Ok that makes sense.... my loop is seven instructions, including
the BEQ, I can
ScottG25 therefore trim the BEQ and the LDA [Screen],y, right?
SEGlass My thinking is a little fuzzy. I think I need to see the whole
thing...
AFA Gary J Q = Scott (Steve), Omnitreant, Parik
SEGlass Let me show you the five instructions: lda src, eor dest, and
mask, eor dest,
SEGlass and sta dest.
SEGlass This copies src to dest through mask.
SEGlass If you do any testing in here you slow down the case where you
must copy
SEGlass through the mask.
ScottG25 Same as mine except the first eor... !
ScottG25 My eor [Screen],y is at the top of the five instructions you just
mentioned..
SEGlass If enough words have a mask of zero, you might save time by
checking it first,
ScottG25 then there is the beq to the dey dey bpl loop part!
SEGlass but if most have to draw anyway, I think this is as fast as you
can get.
AFA Gary J Q = Scott (Steve), Omnitreant, Parik
SEGlass A better way to speed it up is to unwind the loop. Its a clear
win every time.
SEGlass Just takes code space.
SEGlass GA
AFL Jim Scott, Do you have it now?
ScottG25 I'll post a facsimile in the quickdraw folder after the chat!
ScottG25 Yes! I was thinking to unwind the loop, too...! Thanks, Steve!!
GA
AFL Jim GA Omnitreant with your question.
Omnitreant The Goal: Fastest Screen Refresh!
AFA Gary J Q = Omnitreant, Parik
Omnitreant Under what conditions are a LDA/STA faster than MVN? We though
MVN was faster.
SEGlass !
Omnitreant !?
AFA Gary J Q = Omnitreant (Steve), Parik
Omnitreant (did I lay an egg???)
AFL Jim GA Steve
AFL Jim ! is for a comment, Omni
SEGlass The MVN tends to be faster than unwound loops unless the slow
cycles
SEGlass get in the way.
SEGlass For example an mvn from screen memory to screen memory is 7 cycles
per
SEGlass byte but 4 of the cycles are slow.
SEGlass An unwound loop of lda[],y sta [],y is 8 cycles per byte but only
2 are
SEGlass slow.
Omnitreant We are copying a screen image from bank 07 to E1 direct. Should
we go with
SEGlass Depending on your loop overhead, I think you can go faster without
the mvn.
SEGlass GA
Omnitreant the unwound pair or the mvn?
AFA Parik !
SEGlass Are you copying a full screen?
Omnitreant Ga
Matt DTS !
Dave Lyons [Eek! You shouldn't _know_ your image is in bank 7. Use the
memory mgr!]
Omnitreant Let's say half a screen.
AFA Parik :) dave
Matt DTS [dave zapped me again. Withdraw the !]
SEGlass Is it always in the same place? or can it move (code is easier if
you
AFA Gary J Q = Omnitreant (Steve, Parik), Parik
SEGlass can hard code it)
Omnitreant Well, we put the image there (heh!). APW crashes merrily!
SEGlass Did I really say that?
AFA Gary J :)
AFA Parik OmniTreant, I did the same type thing, and I find the LDA/STA
combo faster. I
SEGlass I mean hard coding the part of the screen to refresh.
Omnitreant We are hard coding it. First, we had inline mvns that did the
move. It was
Omnitreant pretty smooth.
AFA Parik use Y as the offset for the source in the direct page (LDA [0],y)
and X for the
AFA Parik destination offset (STA $E12000,x)
SEGlass There are ways to be faster. First don't use sta []y or even sta
$e12000,x.
Omnitreant For a scrolling game, this kind of refresh might not look good for
side-side
Omnitreant movement.
SEGlass set the data bank to $E1 and use 2000,x addressing.
Omnitreant Wow! Sounds like a good idea!
SEGlass Or if you want to get really tricky, you can reserve $2000 to
$9FFF in bank 1
AFA Gary J Q = Omnitreant (Steve), Parik
SEGlass and try the following: turn shadowing on for the super hi res
screen.
AFL Jim Let the hardware move the bytes for you from fast to slow...
SEGlass Turn off interrupts and Set the aux-mem switch. so that your stack
is now
AFA Parik Steve stole my question...:)
AFA Gary J (I was thinking the same question, Parik! :)
SEGlass really bank 1. Finally, set the dbr to your source bank and lda
xxxx,x pha in
SEGlass an unwound loop. It can only be faster by compiling the image
into pea XXXX.
SEGlass and then runing the compiled code. GA
Omnitreant (awe)
Matt DTS !
Omnitreant GA Matt
AFA Gary J Q = Omnitreant (Matt), Parik?
Matt DTS (wow a new forum leader) Be SURE you turn off interrupts before
doing that, if
AFA Parik Yes (keep me)
AFA Gary J Ok! :)
Matt DTS you're going to. An OS call or other heartbeat or interrupt
handler can really
Matt DTS muck things up in a hurry. (this is obviously not for standard
applications)
Matt DTS GA.
SEGlass I think the tech support sample code gives an example of all
this.
SEGlass If it doesn't it should (or will in the future).
DwightW1 WHICH ONE?
SEGlass Matt will hit me now.
AFL Jim hehehe
AFA Gary J Q = Omnitreant (Steve/Matt), Parik
Matt DTS I don't think it does currently, but it could in the future (when
we dig out).
Omnitreant Thanks. You've all given us stuff to think about! One more quick
one...
Matt DTS I'll throw fruitcake; I really will.
Omnitreant Never mind. I'm done. Bye
AFL Jim Should I bring a big shovel, Matt?
AFL Jim OK Parik... your turn.
AFA Parik I'm doing what steve said basically (used bank $01) except I
didn't think about
AFA Gary J Q = Parik
AFA Parik using the stack! Thanks Steve! :) My question. Is there
anything I will
Matt DTS I'll have you know my mother's fruitcake got rave reviews from
the...
AFA Parik stomp on in bank $01? For those who will use this technique, you
need to set
Matt DTS ...IIgs System Software group.
AFA Parik a ORG in your APW/Orca source code to somewhere, otherwise your
program will
Matt DTS !
AFA Parik probably get stomped on by your scrolling (using bank $01 with
shadow on)
SEGlass Hey, I have to leave and terrorize some children. See you all
soon.
AFA Gary J Q = Parik (Matt)
AFA Gary J Bye Steve
DougDavies Hi Dave
AFA Parik bye steve
AFA Parik GA
AFL Jim Bye Steve
AFL Jim GA Matt
ScottG25 Bye and Thanks!
Matt DTS That makes it my turn. If you're going to shadow into bank 1, you
don't...
Dave Lyons Howdy, Doug.
Matt DTS ...need to ORG the code. You just try to NewHandle for $01/2000 -
$01/9FFF...
Dave Lyons !
Matt DTS (what, did I type the wrong address? go ahead, dave <sheesh>0
AFA Gary J Q = Parik (Matt, Dave)
AFL Jim Go on, Dave
AFA Parik Will it move my program though Matt?
DougDavies What's the subject tonight? I have a good one if anyone cares to
chat about it
Dave Lyons And if NewHandle gives you an error, DON'T go ahead and use the
memory anyway
Dave Lyons the way TETRIS does!
Matt DTS (oh, that's benevolent enough) He's right. The problem you might
hit, Parik..
AFL Jim Is that why Tetris crashes GS/OS, Dave?
Dave Lyons [Gee, why do people always think I'm going to correct them?
Sheesh... :-) ]
Matt DTS ...is that your program might have been loaded there. OMF 2.0 has
a bit you...
AFA Parik :)
Matt DTS ...can set to specify that the loader not load your application in
Special...
AFA Parik Thats the problem i hit every time Matt. Orca loads my program
into $01. :)
AFA Gary J Q = Parik (Matt)
Dave Lyons Generally the Tetris crashes I've seen are when you Quit
Tetris--yes, that's
Dave Lyons what's happening then.
Matt DTS ...memory (bank 0 or 1). Also, you could make an initial segment
that...
Matt DTS ...loads the rest of the program not in special memory, and then
disposes...
Matt DTS ...of the initial segment (which might have loaded in bank 1).
The rest of the
Matt DTS program should then be able to NewHandle the shadow memory with
few problems.
Matt DTS (whew!) GA
AFA Parik aha. Thanks. :)
AFA Parik FEW problems, eh? ;)
Dave Lyons 0 is "few", isn't it?
Matt DTS It might fail. A DA might get it, for instance, but that's less
likely.
AFA Gary J Q = Parik (Matt)
Dave Lyons Grab the memory before calling DeskStartup to increase the chance
of success.
Matt DTS i'm out
AFA Parik Heh, was very interesting using the debugger... debugger loaded
into $01, the
Matt DTS (done, that is)
AFA Parik program loaded into $01, and graphics were in $01. :)
AFA Parik Doug, whats up? I want to hear the interesting topic...
AFL Jim So, what else is up with everyone tonight?
DougDavies You can tell the debugger to load where ever you want!
DougDavies oh ok Parik
Dave Lyons How?
AFA Parik BLOAD DEBUGGER,A$... :-)
AFA Gary J hehe
Dave Lyons BLOAD the debugger? I think we're talking about different
debuggers....
AFA Parik Just kidding Dave
Dave Lyons (Oh...didn't see your ":-)" :-)
Matt DTS Calm down, Dave. Breathe deeply. Think of Valium.
DougDavies Just go in with an editor and change the org address in the load
information
AFA Parik Developers going blind? Oh no! ;)
Matt DTS (Oh yeah: :-) )
Dave Lyons I know: you just allocate all the RAM except for where you want
the debugger
DougDavies i load it in bank 7 a lot
Dave Lyons to load, and then you dispose of it later [making Mem Mgr calls in
the monitor
Dave Lyons thru NIfty List, for example].
Matt DTS Or through the mangler, for those who have it
DougDavies No just change the OMF info
Matt DTS Doug: What was your whiz-bang gonzo topic?
DougDavies Well any way my question, dave already knows it!
Dave Lyons Hmmm...hadn't thought of that. Make it an absolute-address
segment.
DougDavies Anyone written a program with scroll bars not allocatted with
TaskMaster..?
DougDavies that act the same a task masters?
Dave Lyons Oh, _that_ topic...I was going to try to figure out how SizeWindow
or TaskMstr
DougDavies We relocate the debugger to break out a lot of games...
Dave Lyons resizes the scroll bars--haven't done it yet.
DougDavies found out how to debug prodos 8 applications with it too.
Matt DTS It's not SetDataSize, Dave?
DougDavies Dave looks like your correct, need to dispose and then reallocate
control
Dave Lyons He wants to know how to move the bounding rectangle when the
window changes
DougDavies Need to change bounds rect, not data represented by scroll bar
Matt DTS (I'm really rusty on this; I've been buried in OS for several
months now)
Dave Lyons size--SetDataSize will just recalc the size of the indicator.
DougDavies And then how do you stop your Draw Content routine from clobbering
your
DougDavies scroll bars
Matt DTS Doug - send an Email through MCI and we'll tackle it tomorrow.
DougDavies with the ClipRect? Seems logical
AFA Parik Buried in OS? Sounds like Dorothy & Toto's problem, 'cept they
were trapped.
DougDavies ok matt, i'll check with dale
Matt DTS Thanks.
AFL Floyd Doug: You might want to look at some Mac source code for this
since the Mac doesn't have TaskMaster
DougDavies Guess you never fool with the origin then, leave it at (0,0) all
the time
Matt DTS Anything else someone wants me to ignore and not answer? <grin>
DougDavies Where floyd, i've looked everywhere, no one here at WordPerfect
has any
AFL Floyd I have a stupid little scrolling program written in LightSpeed C
if you want to look at it.
Dave Lyons Doug, if your data size will always be less than 16K pixels, you
can use the
Dave Lyons Origin as usual. Having a super-large data area is sort of a
separate problem
Dave Lyons from doing your own scroll bars, except that I guess that's the
only reason you
Dave Lyons want to do yours yourself.
ScottG25 What was the solution for the super large area drawing, anyway?
AFL Floyd Doug: I'll upload the source to my little program to you
tonight.
DougDavies Yeah, really want to be able to display 50,000 lines if possible
DougDavies ok floyd, uses control managers scroll bars, not taskmasters?
AFA Parik hire someone to do it for you is a good solution Scott.
AFL Floyd Doug: It is Mac source code. LightSpeed C, but you should be able
to figure it out.
DougDavies ok, great, no 68000, GOOD
AFL Floyd The Mac doesn't have TaskMaster, you have to do everything
yourself.
AFL Floyd I'll send it to ya as a straight text file.
AFA Parik Next time I see a Mac user, I'm going to rub THAT in his face.
DougDavies there use to be a call called SizeControl, it dissappeared i
guess?
DougDavies ok thanks floyd
AFL Floyd BRB... uploading to doug.
DougDavies No explanation how to do it now in any books though
Matt DTS parik: Like that will mean anything to an average Mac user.
AFA Parik :-)
Matt DTS Try it on AFL Tom and see what he says.
DougDavies Could pull apart task master
Matt DTS Only if you have a strong stomach, doug. <grin>
AFA Parik "I have Taskmaster and YOU don't!!!" "I have a 25 megahertz
machine..." :-)
DougDavies Too bad apple didn't make the Data size bigger than $3FFF
Matt DTS Remember, the Window Manager can do what it likes in TM because
it's...
DougDavies yah, sucks doesn't it
Matt DTS ...using it's own data structures. It can "cheat" if it wants to,
iow.
Matt DTS Doug: You got an enhancement request, send it in. We read 'em
all.
DougDavies enhancement request?
Matt DTS "Gee, it would be nice if the data size could be bigger than
$3FFF..."
Dave Lyons (Request an infinite Data Size, Doug! This is your big chance!
:)
DougDavies would be nice, but they wouldn't even listen to half my ideas on
custom menus
DougDavies at least Jim wouldn't, he did help quite a bit though...
DougDavies what happened to Jim
Matt DTS Jim's gone to work for Steve in Apple II System Software (making
the toolbox).
DougDavies yes, wish we could get a journalling driver working too?
AFA Parik Hi again Dwight
DougDavies it's all GetMouse's fault
Matt DTS ReadMouse, isn't it?
DwightW1 MODEM PROBLEM AGAIN
DougDavies yah, almost works
Matt DTS It will work better on a future system disk. Jim says so.
<grin>
DougDavies great, guess or new product won't support it for a while then.
Matt DTS Well, it almost works. <sighing>
DougDavies but Jim is a big help.....cleared me up on a lot of things
Matt DTS (For the audience: Journalling doesn't work because it doesn't
journal...
Matt DTS ...the ReadMouse call, which is made by many of the tools quite
often.)
Matt DTS And it can't journal ReadMouse because the Event Manager calls
that.
Matt DTS (ALL the time.)L
DougDavies sniff
Matt DTS SO: Who's gonna buy me dinner at Boston AppleFest? Positions
still available!
DougDavies ok, any more on the scroll bar stuff?
AFA Gary J :)
Matt DTS (Like I always say: when depressed, go for the ultimate gall.)
Matt DTS Not off hand, Doug. Write in tonight; we'll attack it tomorrow
morning.
AFA Parik I thought DTS was going to buy dinner for everyone.
AFL Jim Matt, we'll send Willie to pick you up.
Matt DTS I think you're mistaken, parik. Isn't it the other way around?
DougDavies Ok, how bout this one?
Matt DTS Willie? The Great Missing AFP?
DougDavies How to have a lot of dialogs without all those structures sitting
in memory?
AFL Jim Ask Floyd about Willie's sense of direction :)
DougDavies how bout out in a text file?
AFL Floyd Doug: The source code is in your mailbox. Remember this is my
first program on the Mac. ;)
DougDavies ok floyd, thanks
Matt DTS If you want to read them from a text file into a handle, use them
and then...
AFL Floyd Jim: I barf just thinking about it. ;)
DougDavies We don't have resources yet do we?
Matt DTS ...dispose of the handle, it should work.
Matt DTS We have resource forks, but no resource manager. Patience.
DougDavies thats what I thought of doing
DougDavies shame to waste all that memory on a dialog that only gets called
once
Matt DTS I personally, being a filetypes kinda guy, would recommend reading
them...
DougDavies No info on resource forks, though!
AFL Jim Floyd: I remember seeing your breakfast flash before my eyes...
Matt DTS ...from a BIN file (or an EXE file if you wanna use the loader)
instead of TXT.
Dave Lyons Doug, what info on resource forks don't you have?
DwightW1 excellent conference...looking forward to downloading it....bye
:)
AFA Parik bye Dwight.
AFL Floyd Jim: I didn't have breakfast...that was dinner from the night
before. ;)
Dave Lyons Matt, that reminds me...why is the ERROR.MSG file in */SYSTEM an
EXE file?
Dave Lyons It ought to be GLF, or something.
AFA Gary J I get the idea that Willie is NOT the person to get a ride with?
:)
DougDavies not sure, I have the most recent GSOS stuff, really haven't looked
at it
Matt DTS Why not? There was really no reason to change it to anything
else, although...
Dave Lyons The only info there _is_ on resource forks is how to open them,
and how to
AFL Floyd Not if you want to get anywhere in a reasonable amount of time.
:)
Matt DTS ...it probably ought to be either $BC or $F9. It just wasn't
important...
Dave Lyons create a file that has one. The format of data in all resource
forks is
Dave Lyons currently reserved by Apple.
Matt DTS ...enough to delay 4.0 for. (grin; some things always fall
through the crax)
DougDavies thats what i thought
Dave Lyons Matt--unimportant as long as nobody tries to run the thing! It's
currently in
AFA Gary J Floyd: Yes, but didn't he deliver your dinner right to your
doorstep? :)
Dave Lyons OMF format, so $BC sounds good. I guess $F9 would work if the
system just
Dave Lyons OPENed and READ it instead of InitialLoading it.
DougDavies anyone want to know how to run a prodos 8 program under the APW
debugger?
AFA Parik Oh matt, that reminds me, has anyone asked for filetype $CD to be
used as the
Matt DTS Yeah. It may be changing around (internally) a bit anyway.
Matt DTS (it can do that since it's a private data structure.)
AFA Parik ACE packed files? $Bsomething is sound, but just about everyone
is using
AFA Parik $CD.
Matt DTS The ACE files will be filetype $D8, with a low auxtype.
Matt DTS Early ASIF, AIFF and ACE documentation referred to filetypes $CA,
$CB and $CD
Matt DTS ...which created no end of confusion. The new sound filetypes are
in the $Dx
AFL Floyd Doug: Yes to P8 and APW debugger.
Matt DTS range. ($D8 is "Sampled Sound")
DougDavies Ok here it is
AFA Parik Ok.
DougDavies put a break in the PRODOS file (prodos 8) at byte 0, with an
editor
DougDavies now load the debugger and type in a program that does a QUIT call
to PRODOS
DougDavies run the program. It will load prodos, hit the break, and your
debugging
DougDavies prodos 8, very useful for cracking prodos 8 games, like ELECTRONIC
ARTS...
DougDavies who hasn't figured out how to program in a real operating system
yet
Matt DTS Shame shame, Doug. <cant believe you said that>
AFA Parik haha! I love it! Thats great Doug! Thanks a LOT!
AFL Floyd Neat.