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INTERVIEW WITH JOHN TARDY / TRIDENT / THE NETHERLANDS
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Give me a short description of who you are?
- I am called John Tardy, born somewhere in the beginning of the 70ties.
From where did you get you handle, John Tardy?
- In the beginning of time, I was fascinated by certain death metal
groups like Deicide and Obituary. The lead singer of the band is
John Tardy and has a hell of a voice. I wanted to adapt his name to
the underground also. If you know the first group, you know my handle
when I was young (and more childish than you can imagine. That Nazi-
virus was just nice compared to my first ones. They were insane).
When did you discovered the world of computers?
- I think I was almost 10 years old, but I heard of PC's when in 1990 I
had my first PC...
How long have you been active in the scene?
- At the end of 1991, I wrote my first virus, but using another handle...
How did you came into the virus business?
- That's a nice confusing question. When I first got struck by a virus
myself, I was convinced of the menace of it. I wanted to kill these
things that ruined my PC. So I wanted to write a scanner or another
antivirus toolkit. I contacted several persons in The Netherlands,
including the author of TbScan, but they pulled me off. I wasn't
thrustworthy and so on... Then I read a document from Vesselin
Bonthev, about the Virus Exchange BBS's. You could only get a virus
from them if you wrote one yourself, he said. So I did....
What part(s) of the underground do you think needs improvements?
- Hmm, I don't know... I like it how it is now...
Positive/negative aspects of the scene?
- People promising they will release a super virus (targetting all kinds
of files), or a superb virus creation toolkit, but you won't see it
in years. Better bring it out first and then boast about it... You saw
and heard of TPE only when it was out...
Have you been involved in any other group that TridenT?
Yes, before I went to PC I was a demo coder and musician, but as it is
extremely difficult to get good information on PC about these things,
it's easier to write a virus.
Who started/created TridenT?
I did, together with Bit Addict. We thought it would bring more fame
if we worked together. Later we contacted the other people now in
TridenT.
What's the groups goal?
- Hmmm, that's not really an easy one... We want to be known (which now
is the case), but we all have our personal goals also. I want to have
the fuzz cleared around the antivirus writers. If they were more open
to me, I didn't make a virus or even founded TridenT... I would be a
researcher then... I can't do that now, because of my history as a
virus writer, so I'll have to go on and on and on (blame them! Cartel
isn't good!)
How many people are you?
- About 7 or so... It can vary...
What's their handles?
- In alphabetical :
Bit Addict
Dark Helmet
DarkRay
John Tardy
Masud Khafir
Some are missing, but that's better for them, I think...
Do all of them program, if not, what's the others job?
We _only_ have coders, or should be... We don't have any hackers,
phreakers or that type of guys in our group, because of the lack of
interest in that.
Who are the "leading/head-persons" in the group?
- Hmmm, let them speak for themselves, but I am only the founder, but
not the best programmer of the bunch. Bit Addict is surely the best
and Masud Khafir is on a second place, but we are not used to things
as "ratings", because we share the same interest.
What's your position in it?
- I founded it (as said before (a few times)) and I code some things.
That's all. Nothing special... Well, sometimes I searched a new member
and pulled him into this (like Masud, Dark Helmet, etc.)
How is TridenT (currently) organized?
- It was very well organized (own mailing system, etc.), but now we are
in a total void and it will take some time to recover, but I think
in a few months it will be better, or TridenT will not be here
anymore, as we all don't have very much time to write viruses
anymore, so... Wait and see...
Have you got any contacts with other virus-groups/programmers?
- No, I do not... I have to call much more then and I have a slight
problem regarding phone-bills ;-) And I don't want to phreak...
Can anyone ask for membership, or are you a "private" group?
- Well, we never had anyone asking to come in... If we saw a very good
virus, I tried to trace the person who wrote it down and contacted him
and asked him if he wanted to join... If you see it that way, I think
it's a little bit private...
What does it take to join up?
- I honestly don't know. If we saw a good virus (like coffeeshop or
gotcha!), we contacted the person. If people are far too willing to
join, I have to think twice...
You've programmed a lot of polymorphic things, and one of them is the
TPE, what comments have you received about it?
- Well, you can better ask if we don't get any comments... Ask
Frans Veldman how he is doing detecting TPE 1.4... Silence... Ask any
other AV-writer. Only a very few can detect it reliably and even more
engines are popping up...
Will you continue to "upgrade" it or is it a finished project?
- Ask Masud, he wrote it, but I think he is bored yet with it. He now
knows how to write such an engine and the challenge is taken, so he
goes on to the next challenge (Virus_For_Windows_1.4 or an OS/2
virus).
How many strains/mutations can it produce?
- Euh.... I never counted it... It was sufficient to see the routines,
and I couldn't find many similarities.
Eventhough polymorphic engine's are a great thing, not many people
seems to use them? You have any theorie why then don't?
- Yes, find one cloaked with the engine, find 'em all... If they broke
the polymorphic code, all viruses using it are known...
Which is the best polymorphic engine around today?
- I like TPE 1.4 a lot... DMU (included with the Mirror virus) is also
nice. It's not very complicated, but it's very small (under 1K). The
Multiple Encryptor of Dark Angel (DAME) is very nice, escpecially the
double word encryption... Comment : Make them overlapping...
Have you aver thought of/are currently releasing some sort of
electronic magazine (text/executable/hardcopy)
- We thought of it, but after a long(!) discussion in our net, we
decided not to do it. There are so many mags now, why writing one more
with debug scripts and sources of viruses. There's enough study
material. We planned to make a hypertext engine for writing viruses,
but that will take a while, as the programmer of it is lazy (he said
it himself!).
Are you into other things such as hacking and phreaking aswell, or just
viruses?
- Now only viruses...
Do you have some network connection (some sort of e-mail or something)?
- Well, we have our private TridenT network, but I had a connection
on email, but I think I am sorta locked out...
Can you name a few viruses/engines that members of TridenT have
written?
- Yes, for example : Pogue, PlayGame, TPE, Mirror, Circus Clusters,
Cybertech, Servant, Thunderdome, Civil War, Weirdo, Horns of Jericho,
Flue, April30, Bit Addict (the non-destructive ones), OW 0-10,
New Creeping Death, Smile, Yeah and many, many others.
Which of them have you written yourself?
There are many... I guess around 60 or so... But the most known are
Circus Clusters, Servant and OW 0-10. Some other viruses like deicide
are the be known as myne, but it's not with this name and I don't
want to be assosiated with the old name anymore.
Which one was the hardest to write?
- Circus Clusters was an interesting experiment, and I had a little
trouble making the virus stable enough (which you could see in an
old crypt newsletter, I made it up for you in a newer one).
Do you have any sort of company or law-enforcement who are trying
bust TridenT?
- I guess so, we have released an awful lot of viruses in a relatively
short time, so I wouldn't be suprised if CRI or so are watching us
carefully, but I think we aren't illegal in any way. I never released
my viruses in the wild, only as source or in an archive accompanied by
a message and/or source code.
If so, are they a real threat or just "childish"?
I think they could be a real threat, not only for us, but for
censoring the whole scene. That would be very bad. I am not so
worried for myself, but more about the fact that the antivirus
business has become a very awful thing with CARO which wanted to
set up a murky database and hunt people down.
Have you ever had any trouble in the group with the result of kicked
member(s)?
- No... Sometimes we have a discussion getting around, but it's only a
matter of time before it dissolves. No one ever has been kicked out
and only will be if he can be really dangerous to other members.
Do you call a lot, and if so how (phone/internet etc.)
- I used to call a lot, but when momma saw the phone-bill, I have to
stay put.. I didn't call any board since a month and it will take
some time before I can begin again... (Gotta pay first).
Do you have any couriers that spread your products around?
- Well, if you mean uploading viruses to unsuspecting users, I must say
"NO". Only interested people can get it from us. We used to drop it
on "Arrested Development" on that time, but are now using another
base that will be much more informative (no hard feelings, AD!).
What do you think about the laws against h/p/v that has arrived lately?
It's a very sad business. What I want to do on _my_ computers is no
ones business. If I want to release a virus on my system, who's to say
I may not? And giving source code to someone to see how a virus works,
is _that_ illegal? They're just plain textfiles! Other people compile
and release them, it's not my responsibility. They can also watch and
say "This is nice" and then throw it away. The laws in The Netherlands
are vague and not very specific. These laws would also make virus
researchers illegal if they send samples to eachother.
What do you think about various news-papers thinking us as nerds?
Have a good laugh at them. I just wear hair curlers in my beard and
a condom on my nose in order to ward off radiation (hello Dr. J.
Popp! (Aids Trojan)). No let them think their way, I think my way.
Has the scene in any way influented on your real life?
No. I'm absolutely schizo! In real life I am ...#^#%$#@ and then it's
like a switch is pulled over and I am John Tardy of TridenT. Sometimes
it's like there are two persons in me, and can't even remember what
virus I actually wrote... Luckily enough it's for me to switch over,
so I don't need any doctor or something like that. I think everyone
has two persons in him, but they opress the other side. Quite
interesting, but not in this issue.
Whould you feel guilty if one of your viruses made damage to a
hospital?
- Yes. For me it's only to get other viruses to research or for learning
the inner tricks of DOS. If by some programming fault of mine a person
in a hospital gets a lethal injection, I would be terribly sorry
indeed, because that's never what I wanted.
Do you see any differences between the scene now and a couple of years
ago (concerning the underground part of course)?
- No, but I do hear a lot more of more people. The first groups that
were then very young (and childish) are now grown up (Phalcon/Skism)
and have become very talented programmers. Now the new groups are
popping up (Immortal Riot) and are just behaving like Nuke in the
beginning. But that's a stage we all have to pass.
Which virus-magazine do you think is the best available nowadays?
I read 40Hex with pleasure and reading score is high. The Nuke
Infojournal contains a lot of rubbish for me (I am not interested in
phreaking) and it's a pain for me to download it.
Which virus-group/programmer do you admire/like?
- The best programmer I've ever seen is Bit Addict. He doesn't make a
virus very often, but when he finally makes one, it's a very nice one.
In the beginning I admired Dark Avenger, but I didn't like his INT13
or INT26 routines at all. I must say, he started with the nice ideas
and the (even) more talented programmers progress on his work
(mutation engines).
Which country is the best virus-writing today?
- Well, I don't think it depends on country anymore, because of the
international virus groups, but I think it's TridenT together with
Phalcon/Skism that produces the best viruses. Don't understand me
wrong, but Nuke has a stealth routine which they must alter, because
it doesn't work if you wanna stealth a virus on a write protected
disk. Look at "Mirror" of Bit Addict and I think you have a nice
playground!
Which virus-group(s) do you think is the best?
- TridenT and Phalcon/Skism, as they solely produce nice viruses and
don't do any side activities like hacking/phreaking...
What do you think about these virus generators, such as VCL and PS-MPC?
- Nice, but real virus writers create their own code, but it's nice to
see it working and you can sometimes learn from the generated source
code.
What do you think about such individues as board-crashers?
- ~~~+++~~~ ATH0 or simply : hangup!
Describe the perfect virus :
- A fully stealth virus using polymorphic techniques and various
ways of infecting strange types of file to escape total annihilation.
(infecting OBJ or NLM's). Read for a perfect description the text
Vesselin Bontchev wrote (Possible attacks of a computer virus).
Describe the perfect viruscoder :
A person that is totally unaware of his other side and can live two
lives apart, his dark side and his normal side.
Describe the AV-community with a few lines :
- I don't like all commercial products, but encourage shareware, as it
is also for the normal computer user important to protect their
computer.
Which AV-program do you think is the best, and why?
- I like Thunderbyte, but it has some flaws. I like DEBUG a lot ;-)
What do you think about the underground's future?
- I don't know how long it will last, but I think the next generations
of virus groups will only write Windows NT or OS/2 viruses.
Do you know/heard of any new technics coming in the near future?
- Yes. I think the new breed of viruses will analyse any type of code
run and tries to insert it somewhere in there. With protected mode
programming it's possible to stay away from any scanner and control
everything. As a result, such virus could infect a .MOD file somewhere
halfway if it's contains executable code which is run. Also own
compression mechanisms are nice (take Cruncher for an example, but it
utilized the Diet algorithm).
Any advice to people who want's to learn the basic of virus-writing?
- Buy a good book of P. Norton and read some virus mags. It's all you
will need nowadays. For excellent ideas read the mail of Vesselin
Bontchev. Sometimes without realizing it he gives good ideas...
Can you be reached somewhere (on a board/e-mail address/internet)?
- No, only a few people can contact me, because my shortage of time...
I was on echomail, but I think my account is gone.
Something else you wish to say?
Well, I'll send you the letter The Unforgiven never seemed to receive
and a message to the antivirus community :
"If you had helped me in the first place, there wouldn't be a
John Tardy or a TridenT. Think that over again and help people
who want to support the antivirus community. For me it's too
late to return, but other interested users can be helped. Only
of this commercial behaviour some people start writing them.
Think twice. Big mouths but even bigger fools sometimes."
Do you wish to send any greets?
- Yes, but the list is very long, so I greet here : Phalcon/Skism, Nuke,
ofcourse the rest of Immortal Riot, The Crypt Newsletter staff and
Arrested Development. Further greets to all other virus writers who
doesn't make destructive viruses.
John Tardy / TridenT
My last words for now :
INCENDERE SUUS
DAMNARE SUUS VITA
DARE SUUS AD ART VENTUS
CAPARE SUUS
ET FACERE SUUS
FERIRE SUUS PERSICUM CUTIS
NUDUS, TURPIS
PUTRIDUS, FINDERE.
ACERBUS, CRUDUS,
RAPTUS, CONTEMPTIO.
MORDAX, ATTERERE
INFICERE, BILIS.
NAM TUUS SCELUS
AMABILIS
TU LICET PERIRE
AD ANTE TU
HABERE AEQUUS SIC
DOLOR NIL FINIS
EGO LIBERARE ART ULTIMUS INIURIA.
Ps. The last thing is to read over for the smart ones. Read it and think.
Intelligence is our most dangerous weapon.