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TRANSCRIPT:
The Earl Baldwin Show
Wednesday, August 18th, 1988
KFYI Radio
Guests: Richard Hall, Jim Speiser
Transcript begins approx. 7:15PM
EB: ...this hour, we have the author of a book with us, it says
"Top Secret" on the cover, and I don't know, I've read a lot of
the secrets in here. "Uninvited Guests", its a "documented
history of UFO sightings, alien encounters, and cover-ups." And
the author is Richard Hall. Richard is with us here on The Talk
Station via the telephone. Hello, Richard Hall!
RH: Hi. How're you doing?
EB: Pretty good. And we have in studio, Jim [Speezer], or is it
Speiser? Speiser...who is a ufologist, and director of ParaNet,
which is a computer Bulletin Board of explorers of the
paranormal...a network, I guess, of all those people who are
comparing data [such] as you have in your book. Your book is a
compendium of all of the reports correlated here in different
categories, from "Close Encounters of the Vehicular Kind" to
bodies in the morgue, humanoids, and big secrets and other...uh,
what gave you the idea for doing this, Richard Hall?
RH: The idea for doing it was that the public at large has had very
little in the way of current, honest sources of information on
this subject for many years now, and their primary source of
information, very regrettably, has been the tabloid newspapers.
The conventional news media do not give adequate coverage of the
subject, so I felt it was time to do an update, pulling together
the most impressive information, and (whether impressive or not)
the currently reliable information on the subject. So that's
what I tried to do.
EB: Now isn't this a case of, "where there's smoke there's fire,"
the idea, with all this smoke there must be a flame somewhere?
With all of the reports, and many of them seem to correlate,
most people who sight spaceships seem to give the same general
description. Most people who see lifeforms coming from
spaceships, or assuming they come from some kind of
extraterrestrial vehicle or transportation, put them in similar
categories, and, are we saying, because these things have gone
on for many, many years now, and seem to correlate from
different sources, different countries, and come up with the
same kinds of general observations, that there must be something
to it?
RH: Yes, indeed. I think that's exactly right. I think if we'd had
all these reports over the years, and they were of 90,000
different sightings, and no two were alike, you know, you could
write it off as some kind of psychological phenomenon or
whatever, but we do indeed have all these converging patterns,
very STRONG patterns, in fact, of exactly, similar descriptions
from people worlds apart, continents apart, all walks of life,
and it tells a very important picture here of some real
phenomenon going on that has not been adequately investigated.
EB: What disturbs me is the fact that it has NOT been adequately
investigated, and that there seems to be a pattern of covering
up; that, if there is something to this, the government - the
military in particular - doesn't seem to want anybody else to
have the information.
RH: Yes.
EB: And why is that?
RH: Well, one can only speculate. But the case I build in my book is
that, sometime back several decades ago, the government and/or
the...at least the military services found very strong evidence
of what we will call extraterrestrial visitation, for lack of a
better term - some kind of intrusion into our airspace by
mysterious, unexplainable objects and apparently humanoid
beings. And they really didn't know how to cope with this. It
was not really treated as a scientific problem, it was treated
as a national security problem. Who are these beings, what are
these craft, where are they coming from? Are they about to
attack us or what? But there was no evidence of any kind of
invasion per se. So the military forces were stuck with a
problem that they really couldn't cope with. Now there's much
more to it than that, which I'll be glad to get into, but
that's as short an answer as I can give to such a complex
question.
EB: Let me ask our guest, Jim Speiser...how did you get an interest,
or develop an interest in UFOs, extraterrestrials, and the like?
JS: I got an interest in it from way back, about 1966. I was a young
boy and I read all of the pulp magazines, etc. Kinda lost
interest up until college, when I learned of the "skeptical
side" of things. From there on I proceeded from a skeptical
point of view, as I pursued many other facets of the so-called
"paranormal": ghosts, ESP, etc. [But] it soon came to my
attention that the skeptical information I was getting on UFOs -
that they didn't exist, that they couldn't possibly be here,
that they've been explained in other ways - I slowly came to the
realization that those explanations were not quite as
scientifically based as the skeptics would have us believe. And
so I said, "Wait a second. If our best debunkers and skeptics
can't explain these cases, or have to resort to way-out
left-field explanations that make the `alien' theory look
ridiculous, maybe there really IS some fire behind the smoke."
EB: Was there any one, or two or three, basic incidents that
convinced you there was something out there? or up there?
JS: Well, I remember the particular turning point in my mind was the
Helicopter-UFO Incident over Mansfield, Ohio in 1973,
and...that's a case where the best debunker in the world, Philip
Klass, as far as I can see, really dropped the ball. He tried to
explain this thing as a "bolide", or meteor, that lasted some one
minute and twenty seconds, which...I've called dozens of
meteorologists, astronomers, experts...[and] no one can tell me
that a meteor could possibly last a minute and twenty seconds.
EB: OK, and, Richard Hall, the author of "Uninvited Guests", was
there one turning point, one "ah-HA!" factor for you that said,
"there must be something to this?"
RH: I'm not sure I can pin it down to one precise case, but I think
one category of reports that impressed me highly was reports by
professional pilots, military and civilian professional pilots,
airline pilots, Air Force pilots... and I have over the years
talked to many, many of them, face to face. Reports sometimes
that they don't put on public record, because they fear
ridicule. But their reports are being investigated by Dr.
Richard Haines at NASA-Ames Research Center, and I think they're
a very impressive category of reports.
EB: Mm-hmm. And, uh, some of the movies, like "Close Encounters of
the Third Kind," "ET," and like that, they've done a lot of
research, which seems to be parallelled by a lot of the stories,
this documented history that you present in your book "Uninvited
Guests." Do you think that Steven Spielberg, for example, was
borrowing from the same basic materials that you've used in your
book, to background his films?
RH: Yes. Steven Spielberg had some contact with the Center for UFO
Studies, which was headed by Dr. J. Allen Hynek, and did indeed
borrow from the UFO literature, but I think he expanded beyond
that and took a few "artistic liberties," shall we say...went a
little beyond the legitimate database, but indeed he was
borrowing from it.
EB: OK, because I notice that, "Close Encounters," I notice a lot of
the lights and the sightings and the shapes of the humanoids
seem to correlate with a lot of the actual sightings that are
documented in your book.
RH: Right.
[Commercial Break]
[Transcript picks up when Speiser is talking to Baldwin about Senator
Goldwater incident. Tape started late...]
JS: ...confirmed to ParaNet that he was not allowed access to
records where UFO information was kept.
EB: Why? Isn't he...
JS: That is a good question....
EB: ...a high muckety-muck, or was...
RH: He didn't have a high enough security clearance.
EB: ...a member of the Senate, head of the Armed Services Committee,
whatever he was the head of, a top-secret clearance...
JS: He was head of just about every possible Senate committee that
would have oversight powers over anything that would have
anything to do with foreign technology, alien technology,
space...he was head of just about everything that would come
under that venue.
EB: Is there any member of [the] Senate, or of the President's
Cabinet, who would be allowed...I mean, the head of the Armed
Services on the President's Cabinet, the head of Defense, the
Defense Secretary, rather, wouldn't that person be allowed...?
JS: Well, any answer I give would only be speculation, we don't know
who has the clearance... Dick might have a better aspect than I
do on that...
RH: Well, I'm in the same boat. We really don't know who has been
told what, you know. All we know is that increasing
documentation from the past suggests that there has been a
tightly-held secret by a group called MJ-12...
EB: MJ-12?
RH: Yes, MJ-12, which was a group of very high, highly placed
political leaders and scientists, back when they allegedly first
got some kind of physical evidence. And this was just between
the President (then Harry Truman) and this group of scientists.
And it was very tightly-held. Other members of the
Administration were not told, other military leaders were not
told, other politicians were not told, so we just don't know.
Assuming that's true in the first place, which we don't really
know, although there's suggestive evidence of it...assuming
that's true, then we don't know where it went from there...what
has become of this evidence, who has been clued in and who
hasn't. So its very much up in the air. But there's enough
suggestive evidence and leads here that we only wish that we
could get some high-powered investigative reporters involved, to
really dig into this, because, you know, we could certainly
provide some very substantial leads to them that they could have
a ball with.
EB: Well now, in your appendix, Appendix B here, you have a briefing
document of Operation Majestic-12 that was "prepared for [then-]
President Dwight David Eisenhower," back in November of 1952,
and it says "Copy 001 of 001," which means this was the only
copy ever made? "Top Secret" is crossed out and "Eyes-Only"
crossed out on my copy, in the book. Can't you get in trouble
for even copying this, or publishing this?
RH: No, no.
EB: Why? says "Top Secret"!
RH: Civilians are not subject to this kind of thing. If I were a
member of the military and published this, then I might get in
trouble, but they have no hold over me...
EB: Well, the Rosenbergs weren't members of the military and they
took some Top Secret information out of the country...
RH: Well, I'm not publishing any atomic secrets, see, I'm publishing
something whose validity is denied...
EB: Oh, I see, they deny that this is an actual document...
RH: ..and also I'm not the original publisher of this. This was
released by Bill Moore and Stanton Friedman and Jaime Shandera.
EB: How did they get it?
RH: They...Shandera received it in the mail anonymously on film. It
was an undeveloped roll of film, and he had it developed, and
this was what was on the film. They have spent several years
since then (this was several years ago), they've spent several
years doing a lot of clever documentary research, and
biographical research to find out who are the principals named
in here - they name the twelve, the Majestic Twelve, in here -
they did a lot of research to find out who these people were,
where they were at the time of the alleged incidents, you know,
the whole thing. And everything they've been able to find out is
at least CONSISTENT with this report. Doesn't prove it...
EB: Well, now wait, according to this there were nine, whatever,
nine spaceships or craft or whatever else flying over New
Mexico, right? Or the Cascade...I'm sorry, uh, Cascade Mountains
in the state of Washington, but then, later on, there was a
[begins more-or-less quoting from document] crash in a remote
region of New Mexico, about 75 miles northwest of Roswell Army
Air Base (now Walker Field), and aerial reconnaisance discovered
four small human-like beings that had apparently ejected from
the craft, somewhat before it exploded, and fallen to the earth
about two miles east of the wreckage site, and all four were
dead and badly decomposed due to the action [of] predators and
exposure to the elements due to the approximately one week time
period which had elapsed before their discovery. Now they
removed the bodies, and so forth, and put a cover story out
about a weather balloon. But the question I have is, that there
were nine of these craft visible just before, or a month before,
in the Cascade Mountains, and a month later, one of these,
obviously, from the same formation, or a similar one, crashes,
why wouldn't the other eight have stuck around or why wouldn't
they be able to get there if they have the advanced technology
and pick these other creatures up, or find out where they had
crashed, if they had this advanced technology? Why couldn't they
find it before we did?
RH: We don't know, but, the point is that these things allegedly
crashed and allegedly were retrieved. And you can only speculate
about what else went on. Actually, if the story...if you take it
at face value, the beings were dead when they hit the ground and
the craft exploded in the air. So they may have been "written
off..."
EB: Oh, and they thought there wasn't enough to even go after...
[Commercial Break]
[Tape again started late...]
EB: ..if they know that much about us, why don't they speak our
language? Because some of the sightings, uh, the people say they
make "unintelligible sounds." Why wouldn't they have taken a
Berlitz course or something, in English?
RH: [chuckles] That's a good question. I don't know. I say in my
book, in various places, that we may underestimate the
difficulties in cultural differences between us and supposed
alien beings, or beings [from] elsewhere, as I call them...
EB: But if you can build a spaceship, you must have some computer
technology. We have computers that will translate most foreign
languages. They can translate Chinese to Russian to English in a
matter of seconds.
RH: Yes, but if they come from a totally different biosphere than
anything we're familiar with, you know, and there could be
tremendous roadblocks. They might not even be able to recognize,
out of all the myriad forms of life on Earth, which is the
supposedly intelligent life. They may be down there trying to
talk to porpoises. Who knows?
EB: Well, we have some intelligent life now on Line #1. From
Phoenix, here's Charles, at 258-KFYI. You're on with the author
of "Uninvited Guests," Richard Hall, and Jim Speiser, the
ufologist and director of ParaNet. Charles, you're on KFYI,
hello there.
Caller: Hello. Uh, gentlemen, I frankly, I think this is all hogwash.
RH: Good.
EB: Hogwash!
Caller: Right. And here, let me give you my proof. Now, I don't know
about the rest of it, but this one part where these craft
landed, and all that, and our government is either hiding it,
hiding them, or destroying them, or something, to keep us from
finding out. Now, just think of this for a moment: We are not
the only nation on Earth. I mean, there are hundreds of nations
where others could have landed, and it is assumed that...I don't
believe that for whatever planet they come they'd pick just the
United States and these little confines. Therefore, all the
nations of Earth - Russia, China, India, Australia, Canada,
England, Germany - all of them must have ALL gotten together in
one great conspiracy to keep this information from all the
peoples of the Earth. Is that humanly possible?
EB: Or extraterrestrially possible...
Caller: It is?
EB: Is it EXTRATERRESTRIALLY possible, not HUMANLY possible.
Caller: Well, no, WE are the humans who are hiding this, you see. Or our
government.
EB: Well, that's a good question, except that, in this book, I might
point out, that there are sightings in places like Finland,
France, Italy, and New Guinea, and Brazil.
Caller: But how about absolute proof, that is, like you say, wreckage,
bodies, even though decomposed...apparently, since these bodies
were damaged by predators, they are apparently edible.
RH: Well, that's very interesting, you show some signs of having
read the literature, because we didn't mention the predator
damage before...
EB: I had mentioned that just a moment ago...
RH: Oh, did you mention predator damage? OK, but let me just say
that, you talk about the international scope of this thing,
that's absolutely correct. We've learned that even mainland
China, communist China, has had a long history of UFO sightings
in modern times, which is only now beginning to come out since
the country has opened up a little bit to the West. We have an
official ongoing investigation in France, and so forth. I don't
think it requires any international conspiracy to account for
why governments haven't told us things. The governments are
confronted with some very strange, baffling information and so
are we. What we're getting tonight in this discussion is some of
the most extreme, very dubious sort of information. In my book,
I have a solid underpinning of why we take this subject
seriously at all. This question of whether or not there are
crashed UFOs and physical evidence is definitely up in the air.
I don't insist that that's true. All I do is report the
information that is available, and suggest that we really need
to study this seriously. But I don't think it necessarily
follows that there has to be some big international conspiracy,
I don't follow that logic.
Caller: Well, somehow it must have sneaked out from SOME country, that
they have evidence which I assume that they would have also, not
just we.
EB: Oh, well there have been crashed UFO reports from other
countries. There have been abduction reports from other
countries.
Caller: And they are also keeping this a deep, dark secret from their
people?
RH: No, its NOT being kept a deep, dark secret, because we're aware
of it. But its just not believed, you see....
Caller: Well, if they would show me, I'd believe it.
RH: ...like you, people say "hogwash."
Caller: Yeah, but if they would show me, I would believe it!
RH: Well, read my book. I'll show you.
EB: We had a shooting down of an airplane by one of our Naval
vessels with hundreds of casualties, and people called our
station and said they don't believe it, that it was set up and
that there were fake bodies and corpses that were set up from
Iran...
JS: That's the trouble, a lot of people...you've heard the
expression, "I'll believe it when I see it." A lot of people
will see it when they believe it. They preface it by that..."I
have to believe it first, and no matter what you show me, I'm
not going to believe it until I believe it."
[Commercial Break]
EB: Six minutes before 8:00, we had a fellow named Joe waiting on
Line #2, but obviously a UFO has spirited him away. So if
anybody else is allowed to call us, if they're not in the hands
of either the Air Force or the extraterrestrials, then you are
free to dial 258-KFYI or toll-free 1-800-242-TALK. And our
guests for these last few minutes of this first hour: we have
Richard Hall, the author of "Uninvited Guests," which is
probably the best collection in logical sequence of all the
sightings, all the reports, and lots and lots of theories on
whether or not the government is covering up something, or
whether or not we have aliens among us. And Jim Speiser in our
studio, ufologist and director of ParaNet. Now that's a computer
Bulletin Board, Jim?
JS: Yeah, its a network, actually, of computer Bulletin Board
Systems, designed to collect and disseminate information on
what's happening right now in the paranormal, especially UFOs
and other anomaly fields such as Bigfoot, Loch Ness Monster,
Cattle Mutilation, things like that. There's a communications
gap in these fields...
EB: So sharing information, and trying to see if there's a pattern
here...
JS: Exactly.
EB: ...might help. Richard Hall, I understand our government, or
SOMEONE, investigated you, when they found out you were putting
this book together, this gathering of all the intelligence data
on possible life from other atmospheres, other planets, other
solar systems. Is that true?
RH: I was investigated back a few years ago, a number of years ago
by the Central Intelligence Agency, and its kind of an elaborate
story, but the bottom line is that I found out, through some
other acquaintances and some Freedom of Information Act requests
that they had conducted a security clearance on me, without my
knowledge or consent and...
EB: Why? Were you applying...
RH: I don't know, but I've been told that they were apparently
trying to set me up as a so-called "window," a source on the
subject, but whatever happened to the effort, I don't know,
because they never did that, at least I was not aware of it...
EB: In other words, they were trying to see if they could trust you,
and maybe put you on the Majestic Twelve list...
RH: Well, perhaps, but apparently I flunked their security
clearance...
EB: Well, I would too, if you put out a book that has a Top Secret
document in it. I'm not sure they want those kinds of people...
RH: Yeah, well, that was much later that I did that...
EB: Well, they could tell. They knew you were capable of doing this
type of thing.
JS: I think that's the bottom line, Earl. If there's nothing to the
subject, why all this government interest? Why are there these
documents - and I mean documents that we HAVE confirmed - Why did
the government tell us that they had no further information on
UFOs, when all of a sudden, under the Freedom of Information
Act, more documents started pouring in that showed that they DID
have interest when they were telling us they didn't?
EB: Well, officially they closed out this "Blue Book" the Air Force
used to keep? Right?
JS: That's right, in 1969.
EB: Does that mean that, for the last, well 19 years, they really
haven't gathered any information about flying saucers, that
they've ignored all their own pilots, uh, visual...
JS: We have confirmed information to the contrary. Although if you
write to the Air Force, they'll STILL tell you, "We closed out
Project Blue Book in 1969, and that was it, that was the end of
our interest."
EB: So nobody in the Air Force is keeping track, right Julie?
Julie's on our Phoenix line here, with a minute to go in our
show.
Caller: Hi.
EB: Hi there.
Caller: I just wanted to ask your guests if they had any dealings with
Richard Hoagland, who wrote "The Monuments of Mars." I just
finished reading that book, and it was supposed to be pictures
of...
EB: We had Richard on last month.
Caller: Right! That's where I heard of the book.
EB: Ah, OK.
JS: I haven't dealt with Hoagland directly, but that's a very
interesting thing that he's got there with the face, and more
interesting is the actual "buildings" or whatever,
"structures"...
EB: That's computer-aided, though! That means that you can twist
your computer and have your computer make any pictures it wants.
JS: I invite any computer analyst to see if those things were
twisted or if they were merely enhanced. If they were, I would
be willing to listen to them. However, I haven't heard that
charge made, because nobody's bothered to follow up on the
analysis.
EB: I'm not sure I could prove a computer either twists or enhances
my mind...
[End transcript]
[End program]