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THE CRUCIBLE <<UFONET I>> 416-244-9999 *HST* - 24Hrs - 12/24/96 - 60 Megs
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The following file contains clarification and correction
of a number of claims attributed to Tracy Torme by Larry
Fenwick within the Fenwick.txt interview transcript of
Nov.6/88. Tracy Torme's version comes from a taped conversation
I had with him on Dec.4/88 In addition to Torme's reaction,
I also have Larry Fenwick's response to this. Lastly, Tracy
also has kindly offered to give his views on the Gulf Breeze
series of UFO sightings, and of his appraisal of "Mr. Ed".
The following is a series of selected statements made by Tracy
Torme, who gave me permission to use "any, or part of this" so
as to reproduce in electronic form for distribution on ParaNet.
<Tracy Torme>
"Although there are grains of truth...small grains of truth, in
some of what Larry said, a great majority of it is inaccurate
and highly exaggerated. Just for the record, some of the positions
that he has me taking are positions that I absolutely do not
believe...I never did, and I still don't. When I talked to Larry
about this after having read the transcript, Larry was pretty
apologetic, and said, well, he realizes he has a faulty memory
and he tends to exagerate. Thats his quote. And that's how I
found the whole thing on me.
For the record, the following things are the way that I feel:
(1) I do not have any inside information on Project Aquarius.
(2) I have strong doubts that Project Aquarius even exists as
interpreted by Larry Fenwick.
(3) I do not believe in underground alien bases. Although I keep
open the possibility that such things exist, I personally
would tend to disbelieve that. And never said anything like that.
(4) The "religion" comments were taken out of context. And most
of what was said were not my words. When I was pressed to
reveal anything I might know about Bill Moore's situation, I
basically refused. Then Larry and Harry Tokarz etc., and Joe
Muskat started asking me, well, if the stuff that Bill is onto
is true, then what would it affect? And they started running
through a number of things, and one of the them that I agreed
could be affected, would be religion. But I never said it
would be affected. And I never NEVER said anything about 20
million suicides. That is something that someone from CUFORN
said, and Larry is getting them mistaken."
"As far as me knowing everything that Bill Moore knows, that is
ridiculous...back in 1982 or today."
"I'm often amused with people who decide that I'm some kind of
agent who knows all that Moore knows, and works so closely to
Moore. Because the reality is that I know only slightly more than
what most people do. For instance, John Lear came out and said I
was an agent of disinformation for Bill Moore. And when I asked
John why he said that, he said, well you seem to agree with him alot.
That's the kind of reasoning that leads to these nonsensical claims."
[Regarding the New York Meeting with...here are some of Torme's remarks]
"Larry Fenwick used to tell me that he saw suspicious people in
the lobby of my hotel who's eyes were following me wherever I went.
So he started to suspect that I was being surveilled. And again, I
don't think there is anything to that either."
"I don't specifically remember anything about saying "don't take
notes", but I'm not denying I said that, because most likely what
the context of it was...they [the CUFORN guys] started asking alot
of questions again...and they may have gotten a tape recorder out
or something, and I may have discouraged them and said, "look guys
I'll just talk to you off the record, but I don't want this to
become like an interview, where I'll have to watch my words. Thats
as much as there is to that."
"Basically, my last statement would be that this is a small but
important example how rumour mongering, exaggeration, excitability,
melodrama, etc....enter into the simplest of stories, and by the
time they make their rounds of the UFO grapevine, they are blown
all out of proportion."
[In response to my query about what percentage of Moore's info Tracy knows..]
I think I still know some things that Bill Moore knows that only
a few people know. I'm sure there are some things that I still know
that are not known to the general public. I wouldn't say [they are]
anything earth-shattering, nothing that anyone wouldn't imagine."
"In my viewpoint, if the UFO community knows 15% of what Bill Moore
knows, then maybe I know 25%."
"I don't know where MJ-12 hangs out, where they play golf, and all
that kinda stuff. I don't know that stuff. If anyone thinks that I
do, then more power to them, but its not true. So thats the situation.
"
[Regarding the above...in conversations with Larry Fenwick, he has agreed tha
t
his recollection of what transpired during certain events (all of which did
occur as Fenwick mentioned) was indeed "faulty", and as they took place some
6-8 years ago, Fenwick blames the passage of time for this error on his part.
]
[One mistake made while transcribing, was my attributing Torme with working
at CTV instead of at SCTV. - other than that, except for a few typographical
errors, the text is an accurate portrayal of the Fenwick.txt transcript.]
[The following are Tracy Torme's views on the Gulf Breeze UFO sightings,
whose views I solicited due to Tracy's own work with, and meetings, with
many of the individuals involved...including with "Mr.Ed" and his family.
As you may know, Tracy's work on the TV special "UFO-Coverup LIVE" was
primarily on the Gulf Breeze segment, and as such he is quite familiar
with it.]
<Torme>"Well, I started as a skeptic, and became a definite believer.
I keep hearing from skeptics that new information, or certain
things that have come out, have blown the case out of the water.
But everytime I look into that so-called "new information",
there's nothing there that damages the case at all, really. So,
I'm still keeping the door open that its an incredibly elaborate
hoax...because I don't think that's an impossibility. But I'm
98% convinced that something very unusual really was flying around
down there. That much, I'm pretty convinced off."
<Mickus>"So I guess you and Jim [Speiser] would differ on that then...
cause I know that he's come out and called it a hoax."
<Torme>"Jim Speiser has?"
<Mickus>"Well, ParaNet's current classification on it is that it is
a hoax."
<Torme>"Is that right?"
<Mickus>"Yes. I thought that it was maybe a little premature."
<Torme>"I'm surprised to hear that. There's so much to the case, that
someday I would love to be part of a real, bigger discussion about
it. I've been down there now I think four times. And I've been
involved with all the principals directly down there in Gulf Breeze.
If its a fake, they sure got me fooled, I can tell you that much.
And I'm not saying that that's impossible, but it would be a real
surprise."
"One thing I will say about it is that, its an interesting case
in that most cases like it, like the Meier case...and others, the
more you find out about them, the less you believe in them. What
I've found with Gulf Breeze is, that the more you stay at a distance
from it, the easier it is to say that its not real. Because the
photos look fake, and its the type of case that has never happenend
really legitimately before. So its easy to just base it on the
superficial ideal like that, and say okay its not real. And I think
to a certain extent, Richard Haines and Richard Hall, and other
people that are good people in the field...when I talk about it to
them, that's pretty much where they stood. But I really found out
that I didn't feel like they knew as much about it as they should,
in order to make that decision [against GB being legit]. The
interesting thing about Gulf Breeze is the more you learn about it
and the more you get to know who "Mr. Ed" really is, and who some
of the other witnesses are, and the details of what they saw, I
think you have to come away from it making the same judgement that
Hopkins made and that Maccabee has made and that I have made, along
with most other people, and that is that it is a real series of
incidents. I've spent quite a bit of time with "Mr. Ed" I've gone
to all the major sites where with him where he had incidents...and
I've relived them with him [through Ed's re-telling]. I've met his
family, his kids, his wife and some of his neighbors and friends."
"I think the guy has a lot of integrity, and I think he's suffering
because of this, instead of profiting because of it." I think its
a real case, that's my feeling on it."
[Lastly, a closing remark about Tracy Torme's view of Larry Fenwick...]
"Larry Fenwick really means well. And he is not dishonest. He's
a nice guy, and he's earnest, and he means well...but like he
himself said, he gets things mixed up. Unfortunately, thats what
happened this time."
[ -- End of File -- ]
there.
<Mickus>"So I guess you and Jim [Speiser] would differ on that then...
cause I know that he's come out and called it a hoax."
<Torme>"Jim Speiser has?"
<Mickus>"Well, ParaNet's current classification on it is that it is
a hoax."