💾 Archived View for tilde.team › ~tomasino › irc › log.txt captured on 2023-06-14 at 14:38:49.
⬅️ Previous capture (2021-11-30)
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2019-09-01 22:19:51 ▬▬▶ tomasino has joined #gemini
2019-09-01 22:19:51 ℹ Topic for #gemini is "channel for gemini (protocol) enthusiasts"
2019-09-01 22:19:51 ℹ Topic set by jan6 (jan6@tilde.team) on Sat, 31 Aug 2019 22:42:44
2019-09-01 22:19:51 ℹ Channel #gemini: 3 nicks (2 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 1 normal)
2019-09-01 22:19:52 ℹ Channel created on Sat, 31 Aug 2019 22:41:57
2019-09-02 00:28:30 ℹ Mode #gemini [+o tomasino] by tiwesdaeg
2019-09-02 00:28:58 ~tiwesdaeg do we know of anyone else interested in gemini here in the tildeverse?
2019-09-02 12:51:44 @tomasino Hmm, not sure
2019-09-02 12:51:50 @tomasino Are you on the mailing list?
2019-09-02 12:58:23 ⚡ jan6 iz a noobz (as I said before ya got here)
2019-09-02 12:59:24 ⚡ jan6 doesn't even know how to view gemini pages, not to mention what it is (had to shutdown computer mid-reading iirc), nor if there's any list, just snatched up the channel ;P
2019-09-02 13:10:38 ~tiwesdaeg I subscribed, but haven't seen any traffic yet
2019-09-02 14:20:51 @tomasino There were two emails this morning. One from me
2019-09-02 14:31:46 ~tiwesdaeg yeah, maybe I forgot to confirm the subscription
2019-09-02 14:32:08 ~tiwesdaeg I just reapplied with my tilde.pink address
2019-09-02 14:36:00 ~tiwesdaeg I'm reading through the archives now
2019-09-02 14:47:16 ~tiwesdaeg I didn't realize there was so much talk about incorporating markdown
2019-09-02 14:50:06 ~tiwesdaeg hah, for some reason I thought pink was the 10th, but it's the 12th
2019-09-02 14:50:16 ~tiwesdaeg dirty dozen baby
2019-09-02 14:51:14 ~tiwesdaeg I need to catch up on some of these concepts like text reflow
2019-09-02 14:52:28 ~tiwesdaeg nevermind, it's just how av98 displays the links
2019-09-02 14:52:44 ~tiwesdaeg link 12, 10th server
2019-09-02 14:53:25 ~tiwesdaeg I talked to erkin about maybe converting gophwr over to gemini
2019-09-05 02:55:24 ▬▬▶ mhj has joined #gemini
2019-09-05 13:43:19 ⚡ tiwesdaeg waves at mhj
2019-09-05 13:59:24 ℹ Notice(team.tilde.chat): *** tiwesdaeg invited ben into the channel
2019-09-05 13:59:28 ▬▬▶ ben has joined #gemini
2019-09-05 13:59:34 ben so many damn channels
2019-09-05 13:59:37 ~tiwesdaeg I know
2019-09-05 13:59:59 ~tiwesdaeg we just started this a day or two ago
2019-09-05 14:01:27 ~tiwesdaeg are you on the mailing list?
2019-09-05 14:01:46 ben no
2019-09-05 14:01:49 ben is it on lists.t.o?
2019-09-05 14:01:58 ben gemini://tilde.team
2019-09-05 14:02:17 ~tiwesdaeg https://lists.orbitalfox.eu/listinfo/gemini
2019-09-05 14:02:48 ~tiwesdaeg gopher://zaibatsu.circumlunar.space:70/1/~solderpunk/gemini
2019-09-05 14:02:57 ~tiwesdaeg main gemini page on gopher
2019-09-05 14:03:40 @tomasino prolly should add that to the title, eh?
2019-09-05 14:03:45 ~tiwesdaeg gemini://zaibatsu.circumlunar.space
2019-09-05 14:03:55 ~tiwesdaeg links to the same page on gemini
2019-09-05 14:04:13 ℹ tomasino has changed topic for #gemini from "channel for gemini (protocol) enthusiasts" to "Gemini (protocol) enthusiasts - gopher://zaibatsu.circumlunar.space:70/1/~solderpunk/gemini"
2019-09-05 14:04:16 @tomasino there we go
2019-09-05 14:04:59 ~tiwesdaeg gemini://tilde.team so boring
2019-09-05 14:05:09 ~tiwesdaeg gemini://tilde.pink way better
2019-09-05 14:06:20 @tomasino :D
2019-09-05 14:06:22 ben oh huh
2019-09-05 14:06:34 @tomasino gemini://tilde.black is slightly less cool than pink
2019-09-05 14:06:47 ~tiwesdaeg index.gmi
2019-09-05 14:07:07 ~tiwesdaeg currently there's plain text and gemini links
2019-09-05 14:07:17 @tomasino index.gmi tiwesdaeg ?
2019-09-05 14:07:21 @tomasino not .gemini?
2019-09-05 14:07:33 @tomasino did jetforce update to support index.gmi too?
2019-09-05 14:07:37 ~tiwesdaeg there's a lot of discussion on a gemini specific markdown language
2019-09-05 14:08:04 ~tiwesdaeg tomasino: originally jetforce was .gemini
2019-09-05 14:08:23 @tomasino that's what i've got running still on black
2019-09-05 14:08:26 ~tiwesdaeg but it looks like the jetforce author added .gmi as well
2019-09-05 14:08:29 @tomasino i better update
2019-09-05 14:08:38 @tomasino and fix my script to check for either file for listings
2019-09-05 14:08:46 ~tiwesdaeg I think everyone was leaning towards .gmi as a suggested default
2019-09-05 14:09:00 ~tiwesdaeg each server can make whatever they want as default
2019-09-05 14:09:22 @tomasino yeah, that was my email. ;D
2019-09-05 14:09:35 ~tiwesdaeg I want to say jetforce lets you set a default
2019-09-05 14:09:51 @tomasino he must have updated again. when i read his source it was hardcoded to .gemini
2019-09-05 14:09:54 @tomasino that's great, though
2019-09-05 14:10:04 @tomasino being able to set an index or a line of indeces
2019-09-05 14:10:07 ~tiwesdaeg --index-file FILE
2019-09-05 14:10:33 ~tiwesdaeg you could cal it geminimap if that's your fancy
2019-09-05 14:10:46 mhj yo tiwesdaeg, morning
2019-09-05 14:10:52 mhj heyo all
2019-09-05 14:10:59 ben https://ttm.sh/fs.txt
2019-09-05 14:11:02 ben systemd unit for jetforce
2019-09-05 14:11:32 ~tiwesdaeg I should just set me letsencrypt key for tilde.pink
2019-09-05 14:11:52 ~tiwesdaeg I was trying out jetforce's key autogen feature
2019-09-05 14:12:21 @tomasino i generated a new key instead of piggybacking on letsencrypt
2019-09-05 14:12:30 @tomasino if it's easy to do, let me know. I'd rather do that too
2019-09-05 14:12:35 @tomasino nice, ben
2019-09-05 14:12:48 ben self-signed feels silly when i have a perfectly good cert just sitting there
2019-09-05 14:13:47 ~tiwesdaeg tomasino: jetforce just generates a new key each time you run it if you don't set the key
2019-09-05 14:13:58 @tomasino i set the key manually to one i generated for a year
2019-09-05 14:14:04 @tomasino but i didn't point it at lets encrypt
2019-09-05 14:14:16 @tomasino i was just following the readme, honestly
2019-09-05 14:14:19 ~tiwesdaeg If you do not provide a TLS certificate file using the --tls-certfile flag, jetforce will automatically generate a temporary cert for you to use.
2019-09-05 14:14:41 ben are self-signed/temp certs automatically trusted?
2019-09-05 14:14:44 @tomasino agreed. i'd rather use the letsencrypt one
2019-09-05 14:14:48 ben or does it throw a warning?
2019-09-05 14:14:53 @tomasino they're trusted
2019-09-05 14:15:01 @tomasino i think
2019-09-05 14:15:04 ben weird
2019-09-05 14:15:04 @tomasino no warnings
2019-09-05 14:15:17 @tomasino i don't grok TLS so no clue
2019-09-05 14:15:34 ben i have a vague understanding of it
2019-09-05 14:16:42 @tomasino gonna update my rcctl to use lets encrypt like ben's systemd script is doing
2019-09-05 14:18:50 mhj I don't have a domain name, but here ya go: 165.22.178.247 . It's running on a FreeBSD digital ocean instance ``
2019-09-05 14:19:00 ben o
2019-09-05 14:19:04 ben no domaine?
2019-09-05 14:19:11 @tomasino uhoh
2019-09-05 14:19:11 mhj Not yet D:
2019-09-05 14:19:24 mhj ?
2019-09-05 14:22:15 ~tiwesdaeg I think with gemini, there's no support for certificate servers, so the client just trusts the keys
2019-09-05 14:23:08 ben tls doesn't need cert servers
2019-09-05 14:23:15 ben it's a chain of trust
2019-09-05 14:24:36 ben do you server per-user geminispaces?
2019-09-05 14:24:42 ben does jetforce support ~/public_gemini
2019-09-05 14:24:46 @tomasino and i broke it
2019-09-05 14:24:51 ben nice
2019-09-05 14:24:54 ~tiwesdaeg nope
2019-09-05 14:25:01 ben :(
2019-09-05 14:25:04 ~tiwesdaeg I'm suing the same trick I did with geomyidae
2019-09-05 14:25:10 @tomasino no, it doesn't, but i generated my own with symlinks
2019-09-05 14:25:14 ben oh yikes
2019-09-05 14:25:23 ~tiwesdaeg ln ~username to public_gemini
2019-09-05 14:25:24 ben sounds painful
2019-09-05 14:25:30 @tomasino scripted it
2019-09-05 14:25:33 @tomasino was pretty quick
2019-09-05 14:25:36 ben right
2019-09-05 14:25:41 ben not super maintainable though
2019-09-05 14:25:46 ~tiwesdaeg ben: I have a cron setup that searches for public_gemini every 15 minutes
2019-09-05 14:25:53 @tomasino for black it makes sense. we don't make new accounts when people join
2019-09-05 14:26:01 ben oh right
2019-09-05 14:26:11 @tomasino now why is everything broken
2019-09-05 14:26:13 @tomasino i'm sad
2019-09-05 14:27:02 ben rip
2019-09-05 14:29:29 @tomasino i can run it manually just fine
2019-09-05 14:29:33 @tomasino ugh, i hate computers
2019-09-05 14:29:40 @tomasino i just undid my changes and it's failing again
2019-09-05 14:29:55 ~tiwesdaeg is this your rc script?
2019-09-05 14:29:59 ~tiwesdaeg mine sucks
2019-09-05 14:30:03 ~tiwesdaeg it will start it
2019-09-05 14:30:19 ~tiwesdaeg but then I can't use to stop or restart it
2019-09-05 14:30:54 ben heh mine works great with systemd so far
2019-09-05 14:30:58 ben logs aren't showing up though
2019-09-05 14:31:05 ben do they go to stderr or something instead?
2019-09-05 14:31:10 @tomasino mine was workin fine to start, stop, restart
2019-09-05 14:31:22 @tomasino and now, it craps out
2019-09-05 14:31:24 @tomasino grrr
2019-09-05 14:31:25 ben rip
2019-09-05 14:31:37 @tomasino that's the worst, when you didn't change anything and it's broken
2019-09-05 14:33:52 ~tiwesdaeg I don't see a log option
2019-09-05 14:34:08 ben journalctl shows stdout
2019-09-05 14:34:14 ben but it's not showing up for jetforce
2019-09-05 14:39:18 @tomasino ahha
2019-09-05 14:39:25 @tomasino it's my attempt to run it as the gemini user
2019-09-05 14:39:28 @tomasino getting permission errors
2019-09-05 14:41:21 @tomasino yep
2019-09-05 14:41:36 @tomasino my private key for letsencrypt wasn't visible to the gemini user
2019-09-05 14:41:43 @tomasino had to change groups around and tweak permissions
2019-09-05 14:41:46 @tomasino whew, we're back
2019-09-05 14:47:56 @tomasino he changed from .gemini to index.gmi but didn't leave both working
2019-09-05 14:48:00 @tomasino gotta update my stuffs now
2019-09-05 14:54:52 @tomasino whew
2019-09-05 14:54:54 @tomasino and black is back
2019-09-05 15:00:32 ~tiwesdaeg ahh
2019-09-06 13:40:14 tiwesdaeg has quit (quit: WeeChat 2.5)
2019-09-06 13:41:38 ▬▬▶ tiwesdaeg has joined #gemini
2019-09-06 13:41:38 ℹ Mode #gemini [+qo tiwesdaeg tiwesdaeg] by ChanServ
2019-09-08 15:16:57 ~tiwesdaeg I'm finally reading through the gemini message list
2019-09-08 15:34:25 ▬▬▶ hyperboredoubt has joined #gemini
2019-09-08 15:34:30 hyperboredoubt Hi, peoples.
2019-09-08 15:49:37 ~tiwesdaeg welcome to project gemini
2019-09-08 15:49:50 ⚡ tiwesdaeg issues hyperboredoubt a tinfoil hat
2019-09-08 15:51:30 hyperboredoubt https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urglg3WimHA
2019-09-08 15:52:53 hyperboredoubt Bad idea: someone should make a new protocol for each of the zodiac. Haha.
2019-09-08 16:07:41 mhj Hi tiwesdaeg, got my gemini server up with a domain name now. Just go to earthlight.xyz :D
2019-09-08 16:07:57 mhj yo hyperboredoubt
2019-09-08 16:09:42 ~tiwesdaeg awesome!
2019-09-08 16:09:49 ~tiwesdaeg did you let solderpunk know?
2019-09-08 16:10:00 ~tiwesdaeg he's been keeping a list of known servers
2019-09-08 16:10:51 mhj Oh, I will. How would I get in touch with him?
2019-09-08 16:13:13 ~tiwesdaeg I sent him an email
2019-09-08 16:13:31 mhj Thanks :D
2019-09-08 16:14:02 ~tiwesdaeg solderpunk@sdf.org
2019-09-08 16:14:38 mhj I will keep that for future reference. I've joined the gemini mailing list too.
2019-09-08 16:15:02 hyperboredoubt Hi, mhj.
2019-09-08 16:16:08 mhj How've you been hyperboredoubt? Do you go through gopher servers a lot? Ever been on a gemini server yet?
2019-09-08 16:17:09 ~tiwesdaeg I'm still trying to read through it right now
2019-09-08 16:17:23 ~tiwesdaeg so many things distracting me this morning like cats and kids
2019-09-08 16:18:11 mhj Wow, that would be a distraction lol
2019-09-08 16:20:14 ~tiwesdaeg life is distracting
2019-09-08 16:20:42 ~tiwesdaeg also, compiling wireguard on netbsd has been very distracting for the past few days
2019-09-08 16:21:24 hyperboredoubt Honestly, I usually only check Gopher once a month or so.
2019-09-08 16:21:50 hyperboredoubt I can't access Gemini since there are no web-to-Gemini proxies yet.
2019-09-08 16:27:23 ~tiwesdaeg https://tildegit.org/solderpunk/agena
2019-09-08 16:27:35 ~tiwesdaeg there is a gemini to gopher proxy though ;P
2019-09-08 16:27:36 mhj tiwesdaeg: didn't know you used NetBSD. I primarily have experience with Open and FreeBSD
2019-09-08 16:27:52 ~tiwesdaeg it's a new hobby
2019-09-08 16:28:12 ~tiwesdaeg these days, I am familiar with openbsd the most
2019-09-08 16:28:35 ~tiwesdaeg tilde.pink just recently switched to netbsd from dragonflybsd
2019-09-08 16:29:10 mhj Did Dragonfly have too much overhead or something?
2019-09-08 16:29:18 ~tiwesdaeg there's better software support overall, but I have not been able to get wireguard running to connect to tildenet
2019-09-08 16:29:37 ~tiwesdaeg there were issues with an upgrade and a full hammer filesystem
2019-09-08 16:29:43 ~tiwesdaeg mistakes were made ;P
2019-09-08 16:29:52 mhj Yeah I get that :X
2019-09-08 16:30:15 ~tiwesdaeg it seemed like a nice time to start fresh and with something new
2019-09-08 16:30:32 ~tiwesdaeg so far, netbsd has been really nice to use
2019-09-08 16:30:50 ~tiwesdaeg it feels slightly closer to openbsd than freebsd
2019-09-08 16:32:31 mhj Yeah, the only thing I could never get into about NetBSD was that it does absolutely nothing for you in regards to installing daemons. Like it'll tell you what needs to be done, but sometimes in a confusing manner I think
2019-09-08 16:33:18 mhj Whereas with OpenBSD it's just like "rcctl <daemon> start" BAM, DONE
2019-09-08 16:34:09 ~tiwesdaeg basically, you copy the example rc file to /etc/rc.d
2019-09-08 16:34:31 ~tiwesdaeg add daemon=YES to /etc/rc.conf
2019-09-08 16:34:39 ~tiwesdaeg then service daemon start
2019-09-08 16:35:02 ~tiwesdaeg I don't know why they don't just put it in rc.d from the get go
2019-09-08 16:35:25 ~tiwesdaeg openbsd I think still requires rc.conf to have an entry
2019-09-08 16:35:38 ~tiwesdaeg then you can control it with rcctrl or whatever
2019-09-08 16:35:49 mhj Oooh. OK, I get it now. I think I mostly got confused with samba, but everything else worked
2019-09-08 16:36:06 ~tiwesdaeg yeah, if you read the output after installing a daemon package
2019-09-08 16:36:25 ~tiwesdaeg it tells you the location of the rc file and where you should put it if you want to run it
2019-09-08 16:36:45 ~tiwesdaeg errbody gotta be different
2019-09-08 16:36:52 mhj lol yup
2019-09-08 16:38:04 mhj I have no idea how Dragonfly does it btw
2019-09-08 16:38:12 mhj Do they just copy from FreBSD?
2019-09-08 16:40:08 ~tiwesdaeg a lot of the packages are brought over from freebsd still
2019-09-08 16:40:18 ~tiwesdaeg it definitely feels more freebsd like
2019-09-08 16:40:42 ~tiwesdaeg you don't have to manually copy rc files
2019-09-08 16:41:01 ~tiwesdaeg I used freebsd back in the early 2000s
2019-09-08 16:41:47 ~tiwesdaeg I actually installed netbsd once back in like 97/98 timeframe
2019-09-08 16:42:00 ~tiwesdaeg got it to dialup for internet
2019-09-08 16:45:50 mhj Hmm
2019-09-08 16:46:08 mhj I used Linux back then, and then, only for a bit.
2019-09-08 16:46:21 mhj But I felt like I always liked BSD more
2019-09-08 16:46:44 mhj Mainly because it seems to be more evolutionary than revolutionary in regards to development
2019-09-08 16:47:58 mhj Also the fact that it comes with so many utils in the base, compared with Linux which varies wildly by distro
2019-09-08 16:50:00 ~tiwesdaeg there was this big lawsuit back in the 90s of bsd code
2019-09-08 16:50:10 ~tiwesdaeg s/of/over
2019-09-08 16:50:43 ~tiwesdaeg it created this perfect window for linux to move in as the open source operating system of choice
2019-09-08 16:51:11 ~tiwesdaeg even after the lawsuit was over and bsd won, it never quite recovered
2019-09-08 16:52:00 ~tiwesdaeg I mean, a lot of bsd code has gone in to some closed source software that is in high use today, like macos
2019-09-08 16:52:35 ~tiwesdaeg I'm still happy that the different bsd operating systems keep on chugging along
2019-09-08 17:00:29 mhj Me too
2019-09-08 17:00:53 mhj When OpenBSD 6.6 comes out, I plan to put it on my desktop
2019-09-08 17:03:01 hyperboredoubt What is it?
2019-09-08 17:03:37 mhj ?
2019-09-08 17:08:41 hyperboredoubt What is OpenBSD?
2019-09-08 17:16:15 mhj Sorry, was on the phone
2019-09-08 17:16:35 mhj OpenBSD is an operating system that's focused on security and simplicity
2019-09-08 17:16:56 mhj It's very Unix-like
2019-09-08 17:17:18 mhj Well, I should say, it IS a Unix
2019-09-08 17:17:42 mhj But in any case, it's very barebones, but also very usable.
2019-09-08 17:17:50 hyperboredoubt And GNU is Gnu's Not Unix.
2019-09-08 17:17:59 mhj lol yup
2019-09-08 17:18:21 hyperboredoubt Why is it not Unix?
2019-09-08 17:18:46 mhj Long story haha
2019-09-08 17:19:32 hyperboredoubt Too many nerd wars. It is worse than learning ancient history, lol.
2019-09-08 17:19:41 mhj I'll give a summary in a bit, gotta do some stuff first lol
2019-09-08 17:20:04 hyperboredoubt Have fun.
2019-09-08 20:12:29 ~tiwesdaeg anyone try the asuka client yet?
2019-09-08 20:12:35 ~tiwesdaeg I'm digging the ncurses look
2019-09-08 20:13:11 hyperboredoubt I haven't tried any yet, sorry.
2019-09-08 20:14:15 ~tiwesdaeg mhj: nice art on earthlight.xyz
2019-09-08 20:14:46 hyperboredoubt What is it?
2019-09-08 20:15:32 ~tiwesdaeg looks like a sphere lit by an external light source
2019-09-08 20:15:44 ~tiwesdaeg I'm guessing it's probably the earth
2019-09-08 20:18:14 hyperboredoubt Cool!
2019-09-08 20:18:40 ~tiwesdaeg hyperboredoubt: do you have python installed on your computer?
2019-09-08 20:18:58 ~tiwesdaeg if so, you should be able to run AV-98, a gemini browser
2019-09-08 20:19:23 hyperboredoubt I do not. Perhaps I should.
2019-09-08 20:27:03 hyperboredoubt has quit (quit: WeeChat 2.5)
2019-09-09 01:32:09 mhj Hey all
2019-09-09 01:32:23 mhj Gonna work on updating the site a little tonight
2019-09-09 01:33:29 mhj And the picture I converted to ANSI is actually a solar eclipse, lol
2019-09-09 01:34:05 mhj I'm debating whether to keep it, but I do like it
2019-09-09 16:00:57 ben has quit (quit: i'll probably be back soon)
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2019-09-09 18:17:31 ℹ Notice(team.tilde.chat): *** tiwesdaeg invited julienXX into the channel
2019-09-09 18:17:42 ℹ Notice(team.tilde.chat): *** tiwesdaeg invited julienXX into the channel
2019-09-10 00:02:44 ▬▬▶ hyperboredoubt has joined #gemini
2019-09-10 00:02:49 hyperboredoubt Hey, everyone. I'm slowly trying to phase the internet out of my life since I spend a significant portion of my waking hours on it and books stimulate my mind better.
2019-09-10 00:02:52 hyperboredoubt If anyone wants to keep in contact, please send me a message so I can send you my e-mail address and through that my physical address.
2019-09-10 00:02:54 hyperboredoubt Thank you for having me.
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2019-09-10 15:07:54 ℹ Mode #gemini [+qo tiwesdaeg tiwesdaeg] by hub.tilde.chat
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2019-09-14 10:36:19 ▬▬▶ julienXX has joined #gemini
2019-09-14 10:36:43 julienXX hi there!
2019-09-14 11:04:21 cat hi julienXX!
2019-09-14 11:58:50 @jan6 ahoy
2019-09-14 11:59:05 ℹ Mode #gemini [+o ben] by jan6
2019-09-14 13:02:32 ~tiwesdaeg julienXX: I really like your asuka client
2019-09-14 13:02:46 ~tiwesdaeg hey cat
2019-09-14 13:08:57 julienXX Hey thanks tiwesdaeg!
2019-09-14 13:09:24 ~tiwesdaeg I haven't tried out your server
2019-09-14 13:10:28 julienXX It’s not really ready for prime time, heavily customized for my needs but I want to clean it up to make a real release
2019-09-14 13:11:06 ~tiwesdaeg have you been planning any new features for asuka?
2019-09-14 13:12:47 julienXX Not really I was in a cleaning phase. I want to be able to open non-gemini links first (in external tools I suppose). Do you have specific features you’d like?
2019-09-14 13:14:21 ~tiwesdaeg hmmm, maybe a way to bookmark links
2019-09-14 13:14:42 ~tiwesdaeg back and forward keys would be nice
2019-09-14 13:15:02 ~tiwesdaeg I just broke the program ;P
2019-09-14 13:15:12 julienXX Ah yes bookmarks were on my list too.
2019-09-14 13:15:28 ~tiwesdaeg it crashed when I went to a link
2019-09-14 13:15:46 ~tiwesdaeg I just restarted it and all three menu options return the same error
2019-09-14 13:15:50 @jan6 ideally you'd allow specifying openers for any file, so that say, if there's ssh:// or kermit:// then it won't refuse to open, or try opening wrong thing ;P
2019-09-14 13:16:11 @jan6 s/file/protocol/
2019-09-14 13:16:23 ~tiwesdaeg Could not connect to start page:1965
2019-09-14 13:16:48 ~tiwesdaeg failed to look up address information: Name or service not known
2019-09-14 13:17:09 ~tiwesdaeg but if I type the letter for the menu item it works
2019-09-14 13:17:20 ~tiwesdaeg sort of
2019-09-14 13:18:41 ~tiwesdaeg so, it's crashing when I highlight a link and press enter
2019-09-14 13:20:36 julienXX Hmm weird are you on 0.5.0 or master?
2019-09-14 13:20:52 julienXX Last tag is supposed to be working well
2019-09-14 13:21:31 julienXX I would open everything as long as the mime type is registered with an app
2019-09-14 13:21:31 ~tiwesdaeg 0.5.0
2019-09-14 13:22:22 ~tiwesdaeg might be master
2019-09-14 13:22:32 ~tiwesdaeg whatever is the default on the git page
2019-09-14 13:23:11 ~tiwesdaeg let me try something
2019-09-14 13:24:01 julienXX Oh you mean you are trying to click the items on the initial page? Those won’t work it’s just some kind of help.
2019-09-14 13:26:03 julienXX I should disable clicking them
2019-09-14 13:29:51 ~tiwesdaeg julienXX: exactly
2019-09-14 13:30:10 ~tiwesdaeg you can highlight the menu items and then hit enter
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2019-09-14 14:53:14 julienXX By the way if anybody wants to try Asuka but don’t want to bother with the Rust toolchain, you can ssh into asuka@typed-hole.org (password asuka) to test-drive the latest version.
2019-09-14 15:31:38 jan6 noice, that's cool
2019-09-14 15:32:42 jan6 we should have a wiki-like place to put for example that ^ in, so it's not lost to scrollback
2019-09-14 15:33:06 jan6 also kinda sad I lost my op, but I suppose it's not much of a deal...
2019-09-14 16:06:10 ~tiwesdaeg rust and I have a difficult relationship
2019-09-14 16:15:34 jan6 rus sux ;P
2019-09-14 16:15:37 jan6 *rust
2019-09-14 16:21:17 ~tiwesdaeg it's like fancy c++
2019-09-14 16:21:39 julienXX It’s my preferred tool after Haskell ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
2019-09-14 16:22:08 ~tiwesdaeg I used rust once to write a simple discordian calendar conversion program
2019-09-14 16:22:30 ~tiwesdaeg I was lost with all these Uwhatever integer types
2019-09-14 16:22:47 ~tiwesdaeg but finally mashed it in to a working program
2019-09-14 16:23:01 ~tiwesdaeg python is really the only thing I've seriously used
2019-09-14 16:28:56 julienXX Yeah it’s not really beginner friendly but it’s a good mix of close to the metal like C++ with high level abstractions à la Haskell. A good productive hybrid tool IMO
2019-09-14 16:40:32 jan6 rust also is bad in the sense it would be great trouble to completely compile from scratch
2019-09-14 16:46:46 ~tiwesdaeg I compiled go from scratch the other day
2019-09-14 16:46:50 ~tiwesdaeg that was exciting
2019-09-14 16:47:07 ~tiwesdaeg when I was trying to get wireguard-go running
2019-09-14 16:53:32 jan6 Go is...eeh, syntax seems a little backwards for me ;P
2019-09-14 16:53:47 jan6 I suppose Go isn't bad, it's just weird, imho
2019-09-14 17:30:13 julienXX Go is nice if you like programming like it’s 1973 :p
2019-09-14 18:19:55 jan6 heh, how so?
2019-09-14 18:19:59 jan6 also wdym?
2019-09-14 18:21:11 ~tiwesdaeg Gimme some o' that fortran
2019-09-14 18:22:27 jan6 what about COBOL ? ;P
2019-09-14 18:22:51 jan6 also kinda sad BASIC is so forgotten nowdays
2019-09-14 18:38:00 julienXX jan6: only for loops, simple structs and manual error handling but that’s cool to replace C when you don’t need as much performance
2019-09-14 21:15:37 jan6 C is cool, but it's a once-upon-a-time-low-level high level language ;P
2019-09-14 21:17:39 @tomasino brool copied their stoned.txt file to gemini
2019-09-14 21:17:44 @tomasino and gemini just got 10X better
2019-09-14 21:26:51 ~tiwesdaeg Haha, I haven't read that recently
2019-09-14 21:27:20 @tomasino looks great in av-98
2019-09-14 21:31:29 ~tiwesdaeg Link?
2019-09-14 21:32:20 @tomasino gemini://tilde.black/users/brool
2019-09-14 22:49:22 julienXX Very cool!
2019-09-14 22:52:06 @tomasino indeed
2019-09-14 22:52:11 @tomasino it gives me a big smile
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2019-09-17 11:01:15 julienXX Hey thanks for stopping by cat :)
2019-09-17 11:01:24 @tomasino woo
2019-09-17 11:01:32 @tomasino cat makes the world go round
2019-09-17 14:22:02 jan6 no, cat makes the world go meow
2019-09-17 15:32:22 ~tiwesdaeg yay, vacation over
2019-09-17 15:32:35 ~tiwesdaeg I can pay attention to the tildeverse again
2019-09-17 15:39:40 @ben hihi tiwesdaeg
2019-09-17 15:39:50 ~tiwesdaeg how goes it?
2019-09-17 15:40:02 ~tiwesdaeg I'm trying to recover from "vacation"
2019-09-17 15:40:07 @ben nuts
2019-09-17 15:40:31 @ben tilde.club is back
2019-09-17 15:40:40 ~tiwesdaeg I took today off as well so I could recover a bit before going back to work
2019-09-17 15:40:52 ~tiwesdaeg tilde.club was one of the early tildes, right?
2019-09-17 15:42:15 @ben first pubnix with the tilde moniker
2019-09-17 15:42:50 ~tiwesdaeg I remember visiting their webpage when I first learned about the tildeverse
2019-09-17 15:43:28 ⚡ ben nod
2019-09-17 15:44:37 ~tiwesdaeg were they ever part of tilde.chat?
2019-09-17 15:48:44 @ben we are now
2019-09-17 15:57:56 ~tiwesdaeg julienXX: I'm having issues with installing asuka on netbsd
2019-09-17 15:58:12 ~tiwesdaeg ben: are you running the tilde.club show?
2019-09-17 15:58:22 @ben ya, deepend and i are the new admins
2019-09-17 15:58:26 ~tiwesdaeg neat
2019-09-17 15:58:42 ~tiwesdaeg just to add to all that tilde.team fun
2019-09-17 15:58:44 julienXX tiwesdaeg: I have just tested on OpenBSD (my main machine) what kind of error do you get?
2019-09-17 15:59:05 ~tiwesdaeg Shared object "libncursesw.so.6" not found
2019-09-17 16:00:11 ~tiwesdaeg so, netbsd installs all packages in /usr/pkg
2019-09-17 16:00:15 julienXX https://wiki.netbsd.org/curses_in_netbsd/ damn...
2019-09-17 16:00:46 ~tiwesdaeg in this case, /usr/pkg/lib/libncursesw.so.6
2019-09-17 16:02:23 @ben yeah, figured i'd spread myself a little thinner lol
2019-09-17 16:02:30 ~tiwesdaeg I'm a bit fuzzy on how libs are accessed by an application
2019-09-17 16:03:56 ~tiwesdaeg is the current userbase still pretty active on tilde.club?
2019-09-17 16:05:53 ~tiwesdaeg nice, so a did ln -s to /usr/lib
2019-09-17 16:06:07 ~tiwesdaeg it runs, but unusable
2019-09-17 16:06:47 julienXX tiwesdaeg: unusable in what way?
2019-09-17 16:07:36 ~tiwesdaeg ~T~@T~@T~@T~@T~@T~@T~@T~@T~@T~@T~@T~@T~@~gemini://tilde.black/ T~\T~@T~@T~@T~@T~@T~@T~@T~@T~@T~@T~@T~@[2;1H~T~PB~@T~@T~@T~@T~@T~@T~@T~@T~@T~@T~@T~@T~@T~@T~@T
2019-09-17 16:07:41 ~tiwesdaeg top line looks like that
2019-09-17 16:08:27 julienXX maybe you coult try to change your locale to an UTF8 one if that's not the case
2019-09-17 16:10:41 ~tiwesdaeg nope
2019-09-17 16:10:47 ~tiwesdaeg didn't change it
2019-09-17 16:12:26 ~tiwesdaeg julienXX: https://imgur.com/FImpQr2
2019-09-17 16:12:55 julienXX fancy
2019-09-17 16:13:06 ~tiwesdaeg yeah
2019-09-17 16:13:20 ~tiwesdaeg so, the commands work and I can enter a url
2019-09-17 16:13:52 julienXX I've never used NetBSD but I can try in a VM when I get some time. It's clearly an issue with NCurses, not with Asuka specifically.
2019-09-17 16:13:57 ~tiwesdaeg could this be due to my weird symbolic link for the lib?
2019-09-17 16:14:28 julienXX Seems to me NetBSD support for curses apps is not great
2019-09-17 16:14:38 ~tiwesdaeg yeah, which is kind of weird
2019-09-17 16:14:49 julienXX if it compiled I guess it found what it needed code-wise.
2019-09-17 16:15:45 julienXX so the link should be okay. I would try to change the terminal settings to see if it improves things
2019-09-17 16:16:21 ~tiwesdaeg it works fine in the same terminal locally
2019-09-17 16:16:26 @ben tiwesdaeg: http://tilde.club/~delfuego/tilde.24h.html
2019-09-17 16:17:08 ~tiwesdaeg that's a lot of users just updating in the last day
2019-09-17 16:17:24 ~tiwesdaeg did you move the everything over to your massive server?
2019-09-17 16:17:56 ~tiwesdaeg also, at this point, lets just kill the old dragonflybsd vm and free up all the resources
2019-09-17 16:18:18 @ben ok i'll kill the old vm
2019-09-17 16:18:28 @ben no, ~club is on deepend's server
2019-09-17 16:18:33 julienXX tiwesdaeg: so try to fiddle with env variables on the remote system
2019-09-17 16:18:51 @ben i am planning on moving to an ovh box when my current subscription runs out in january
2019-09-17 16:19:00 @ben upgrading from soyoustart to ovh proper
2019-09-17 16:20:27 julienXX tiwesdaeg: here is what I have on a working system https://www.pastiebin.com/5d8107acf128d if that can help
2019-09-17 16:22:16 ~tiwesdaeg https://www.pastiebin.com/5d81082e26344
2019-09-17 16:22:18 ~tiwesdaeg my current
2019-09-17 16:22:41 ~tiwesdaeg I'll try LC_ALL
2019-09-17 16:23:47 ~tiwesdaeg same
2019-09-17 16:23:49 ~tiwesdaeg hmmm
2019-09-17 16:30:47 julienXX perhaps rm -rf target and recompile to have the new vars taken into account during compilation
2019-09-17 16:31:31 ~tiwesdaeg sure
2019-09-17 16:50:02 julienXX tiwesdaeg: you can try the termion-backend branch otherwise which uses another backend that might be better (but does not support windows)
2019-09-17 17:15:51 ~tiwesdaeg it's slowly compiling still
2019-09-17 17:47:33 julienXX Yeah takes about 15min on my Pi Zero that hosts typed-hole.org Gemini stuff
2019-09-17 19:08:12 ~tiwesdaeg julienXX: even with locale updated, recompile results in the same issue
2019-09-17 19:10:35 julienXX Well if you have some time you could try the branch I mentioned earlier otherwise I’ll try in a VM to see what I can find. Not supporting NetBSD would be a bummer
2019-09-17 19:11:49 ~tiwesdaeg git checkout termion-backend?
2019-09-17 19:15:38 ~tiwesdaeg I just pulled it from the website and am building now
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2019-09-17 19:42:11 julienXX Yes checkout termion-backend, not sure it will improve things but it might be more compatible with NetBSD
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2019-09-18 02:20:31 ~tiwesdaeg julienXX: nogo on the termion-backend branch
2019-09-18 13:00:10 julienXX tiwesdaeg: did a test on a fresh netbsd 8.1 VM and I get the garbage screen too.
2019-09-18 13:00:33 ~tiwesdaeg it's gotta be netbsd's weird ncurses
2019-09-18 13:01:07 ~tiwesdaeg AV-98 does work, so there is at least one gemini browser running on tilde.pink
2019-09-18 13:01:32 jan6 don't use N-curses then? ;p
2019-09-18 13:01:50 ~tiwesdaeg it's so pretty though
2019-09-18 13:02:14 ~tiwesdaeg julienXX: have you thought about using a different color background for popup windows?
2019-09-18 13:02:28 ~tiwesdaeg I'm not sure the proper terminology for ncurses
2019-09-18 13:03:26 jan6 there are other curses, and non-cursing libraries and stuff
2019-09-18 13:03:58 @tomasino so much cursing
2019-09-18 13:04:04 @tomasino ~black has a few gemini holes now
2019-09-18 13:04:17 @tomasino well, it's got my "hey, gemini is available" post, and a couple stoners
2019-09-18 13:04:20 julienXX not really those are default colors, I'm not even sure of how much customization I can make regarding colors. I guess everything is possible but I should invest more time learning ncurses
2019-09-18 13:04:25 @tomasino but i say that's all good
2019-09-18 13:05:58 ~tiwesdaeg the mailing list seemed to taper off again
2019-09-18 13:06:55 ~tiwesdaeg I'm kinda curious as to where the gemini markdown language will end up
2019-09-18 13:09:46 jan6 html
2019-09-18 13:09:56 julienXX I guess it will have to wait for someone starting a GUI client to see the eventual pain points
2019-09-18 13:10:24 ⚡ jan6 supposes it to be a nice exercise
2019-09-18 13:10:30 jan6 fltk ftw!
2019-09-18 13:10:42 julienXX returning a text/markdown mime type should be enough if you ask me
2019-09-18 13:10:51 julienXX and the client deals with it
2019-09-18 13:11:22 julienXX or not in the case of my client :D
2019-09-18 13:12:34 ~tiwesdaeg I really would like to try doing some sort of gui client, but I just feel like my programming skills are lacking
2019-09-18 13:12:47 jan6 me too
2019-09-18 13:12:56 jan6 but you never learn if you don't try
2019-09-18 13:13:02 ~tiwesdaeg what would be a good cross platform language for it?
2019-09-18 13:13:05 julienXX see it as a good way to improve
2019-09-18 13:13:14 jan6 fltk should be good enough toolkit imho
2019-09-18 13:13:19 ~tiwesdaeg python is the only one I'm ok at
2019-09-18 13:13:20 julienXX python + gtk could be nice
2019-09-18 13:13:21 jan6 and C for the core language
2019-09-18 13:13:39 jan6 then maybe python FFI to the core
2019-09-18 13:14:06 jan6 or lua
2019-09-18 13:14:06 ~tiwesdaeg any helpful websites on how to use gtk with a python program?
2019-09-18 13:14:59 jan6 löve2d bundle of lua works on linux, android, windows, mac, maybe some others
2019-09-18 13:15:41 julienXX tiwesdaeg: https://python-gtk-3-tutorial.readthedocs.io/en/latest/
2019-09-18 13:15:49 jan6 *search engine of yourbchoice* is your friend
2019-09-18 13:16:02 ~tiwesdaeg there are often many options
2019-09-18 13:16:20 ~tiwesdaeg I'll look in to it
2019-09-18 13:16:46 ~tiwesdaeg I wonder if I could make it gopher/gemini
2019-09-18 13:17:20 jan6 start with one, of course
2019-09-18 13:17:30 jan6 but sure you can
2019-09-18 13:18:21 julienXX gemini will be a bit harder because of TLS
2019-09-18 13:18:29 jan6 I'd like if all gemini browsers also supported gopher in some capacity too, at least by executong external programs if nothing else
2019-09-18 13:18:46 jan6 right now they tend to just freeze at gopher links
2019-09-18 13:20:28 julienXX we just need gemini support in lynx and there you have a universal client
2019-09-18 13:23:19 @tomasino av-98 and vf-1 are very similar code bases. I wouldn't be surprised to see solderpunk make a super-set
2019-09-18 13:23:48 @tomasino if it just changed color or something to indicated when you were TLS protected vs not, that'd be great
2019-09-18 13:24:03 @tomasino gopher over TLS or gemini get one color, gopher in plain text another
2019-09-18 13:24:11 @tomasino bonus if tor got a 3rd
2019-09-18 13:28:27 julienXX that would be super nice!
2019-09-18 13:28:56 jan6 what about i2p? ;p
2019-09-18 13:30:01 ~tiwesdaeg installing pygobject
2019-09-18 13:30:29 jan6 qt > gtk, btw ;p
2019-09-18 13:30:40 @tomasino gopher://gopher.black/1/phlog/20190918-av-98-and-vf-1-daydream
2019-09-18 13:34:15 ~tiwesdaeg I use gnome the majority of the time
2019-09-18 13:37:04 jan6 then sure, for you
2019-09-18 13:40:07 mhj Good day geminers, what have y'all recently added to your gemini gems recently?
2019-09-18 13:41:56 julienXX Hello mhj, I added a basic git browsing capability
2019-09-18 13:42:40 mhj yo julienXX, that's cool. :D I can see that being pretty useful!
2019-09-18 13:43:08 mhj I use AV-98 to browse the gemspace
2019-09-18 13:45:30 mhj Still working on my gemini server at gemini://earthlight.xyz
2019-09-18 13:46:45 julienXX I wanted to add some kind of old-school webring for the gemini-space but haven't started anything yet.
2019-09-18 13:47:20 mhj I think that's a good idea
2019-09-18 13:58:03 ~tiwesdaeg work keeps interfering with my tilde time
2019-09-18 14:07:55 @tomasino ooh, gemspace is a nice name
2019-09-18 14:26:27 ~tiwesdaeg a little nicer than gopherhole
2019-09-18 14:26:59 @tomasino burrows are nice
2019-09-18 14:27:14 @tomasino or even gopher dens
2019-09-18 14:55:41 mhj I like the term gemspace because it conjures up a bazarre or like mining site full of gems lol
2019-09-18 14:55:58 @tomasino yeah
2019-09-18 14:56:41 mhj *bazaar
2019-09-18 15:04:22 jan6 I don't exactly like gemspace, because it's too close to ruby gems ;P
2019-09-18 15:04:29 jan6 but it's not too bad of a name
2019-09-18 15:11:39 ~tiwesdaeg might as well just call it janspace
2019-09-18 15:18:22 @tomasino agreed
2019-09-18 15:18:26 @tomasino janspace
2019-09-18 15:18:48 julienXX janhole maybe?
2019-09-18 15:19:54 @tomasino oh, that is much less desirable
2019-09-18 15:19:54 @tomasino haha
2019-09-18 15:46:00 jan6 lol
2019-09-18 15:46:10 jan6 janspace would be good if I actually had any content
2019-09-18 15:46:24 @tomasino step 1: make stuff
2019-09-18 15:46:28 @tomasino step 2: take over the world
2019-09-18 15:46:35 jan6 I still don't know anything about it, other than the declaration what it's trying to do
2019-09-18 15:46:46 jan6 step 0: be born
2019-09-18 15:47:18 jan6 step 3 is the most problematic part tho, what to do with the world, also 4, how to keep the world ;P
2019-09-18 15:57:27 jan6 spacespace > any other space
2019-09-19 12:16:40 ~tiwesdaeg man, gui programming has a learning curve
2019-09-19 12:49:12 @tomasino this is why electron is so popular
2019-09-19 13:02:09 ~tiwesdaeg but I don't wanna
2019-09-19 13:02:37 ~tiwesdaeg I was playing with glade, but it's still not simple
2019-09-19 15:03:20 mhj If only Electron and Oracle Java could come together, they could make the ultimate chat client that only takes over 2 GB to use
2019-09-19 15:10:17 jan6 *4gb
2019-09-19 15:10:51 jan6 also I wonder how much of the java's problems are jvm and how much are java itself
2019-09-19 15:11:30 @tomasino java went deep and hard on all the stuff that annoyed me about C++ over C. I turn my nose up at it still
2019-09-19 15:11:54 @tomasino interface all the things! Even things that there will only ever be one of
2019-09-19 15:12:05 @tomasino meh
2019-09-19 16:01:34 jan6 lol
2019-09-19 16:01:49 jan6 jvm is cool, java is....well...java
2019-09-19 16:03:05 jan6 https://pics.onsizzle.com/how-many-layers-of-abstraction-are-you-on-you-are-3409103.png
2019-09-19 16:07:45 jan6 http://www.foundery.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/sherwin-2.jpg
2019-09-19 16:07:47 jan6 that too
2019-09-19 16:10:52 jan6 https://images3.memedroid.com/images/UPLOADED793/5b4f049b3a976.jpeg
2019-09-19 16:10:55 jan6 enough java
2019-09-19 16:14:08 jan6 also unrelated https://i.imgur.com/gh2H9id.jpg
2019-09-19 16:14:17 ⚡ jan6 the link-man
2019-09-19 19:31:05 @tomasino janspace
2019-09-19 19:33:24 jan6 sure ;P
2019-09-19 22:50:29 cat aside from the few on ~black, is there anyone producing content for gemini that isn't about gemini?
2019-09-19 23:09:46 @tomasino Not that I've seen
2019-09-19 23:58:29 cat i guess it's still hella early days
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2019-09-20 15:03:24 ℹ Mode #gemini [+qo tiwesdaeg tiwesdaeg] by ChanServ
2019-09-20 15:56:29 jan6 I could produce content, if I had anything to produce and if I knew how to ;PO
2019-09-20 15:56:31 jan6 P;
2019-09-20 16:00:21 ~tiwesdaeg jan6: create public_gemini on your tilde.pink account
2019-09-20 16:00:30 ~tiwesdaeg create a file called index.gmi in there
2019-09-20 16:00:36 ~tiwesdaeg fill it with crap
2019-09-20 16:01:06 ~tiwesdaeg if you want to link to some other page or gemini site, links work like this
2019-09-20 16:01:40 ~tiwesdaeg => gemini://tilde.pink/~tiwesdaeg/ Some super cool guy's gemspace!
2019-09-20 16:02:33 ~tiwesdaeg you can view it from tilde pink with 'av98'
2019-09-20 16:06:29 ~tiwesdaeg also, space or tab works between the url and the label/title
2019-09-20 16:06:38 ~tiwesdaeg you can make all your links nice and even
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2019-09-20 17:11:28 jan6 how long till it shows up?
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2019-09-20 17:26:41 jan6 k on now
2019-09-20 21:16:45 ~tiwesdaeg yeah, I think the cron runs every 15 minutes or so
2019-09-20 21:34:16 ⚡ jan6 ought to figure out fun uses of socat, eventually...eventually...
2019-09-20 21:36:01 jan6 semi-wrong channel
2019-09-21 01:36:46 mhj Hi geminars from planet X
2019-09-21 03:13:34 ~tiwesdaeg yo
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2019-09-21 17:22:30 creme hi
2019-09-21 18:10:45 ~tiwesdaeg hey there creme
2019-09-21 18:11:38 ⚡ jan6 shrugs off the op-loss and procrastinates despite being busy
2019-09-21 18:35:50 creme yeah i have now an running gemini server =)
2019-09-21 18:35:55 creme with jetforce
2019-09-21 18:37:31 mhj Ooh sweet
2019-09-21 18:37:55 mhj Do you have a domain or anything for it yet?
2019-09-21 18:38:01 mhj Mine is at earthlight.xyz
2019-09-21 18:38:30 creme gemini://envs.net
2019-09-21 18:38:48 ⚡ mhj fires up AV-98
2019-09-21 18:39:12 creme i have the gemini client av98 too =)
2019-09-21 18:39:14 creme so nice
2019-09-21 18:40:09 @ben gemini://tilde.team
2019-09-21 18:40:11 mhj Yeah, it makes browsing things so familier
2019-09-21 18:40:24 creme ben o/
2019-09-21 18:40:32 @ben hi
2019-09-21 18:40:39 creme yeah really. also vf-1 for gopher
2019-09-21 18:42:16 ⚡ jan6 wonders if gemini vhosts or such would be possible
2019-09-21 18:45:02 @ben probably
2019-09-21 18:52:32 creme Is there an online cheatsheet like I write a .gmi?
2019-09-21 18:53:19 jan6 well, the specs are available over gopher-only afaik
2019-09-21 18:53:46 jan6 all i know so far is
2019-09-21 18:53:49 jan6 19:01 <~tiwesdaeg> if you want to link to some other page or gemini site, links work like this
2019-09-21 18:53:49 jan6 19:01 <~tiwesdaeg> => gemini://tilde.pink/~tiwesdaeg/ Some super cool guy's gemspace!
2019-09-21 18:53:57 jan6 and rest is plaintext?
2019-09-21 18:57:10 creme or a example index.gmi
2019-09-21 18:58:09 creme i like to see how to do a shell cmd or create a link ..
2019-09-21 19:03:35 jan6 "do a shell cmd"?
2019-09-21 19:03:44 jan6 link I just pasted
2019-09-21 19:04:12 jan6 like 5 min before you asked, and 1 min after you asked for cheatsheet, lol
2019-09-21 19:06:21 creme "do a shell cmd"?
2019-09-21 19:06:43 creme ^^ i need to call 'foglet'
2019-09-21 19:06:56 creme or include a static file
2019-09-21 19:07:04 creme Is that possible?
2019-09-21 19:07:24 creme s/foglet/figlet/
2019-09-21 19:13:37 creme I build a script best to create the .gmi file.
2019-09-21 19:19:31 jan6 well, you sure can just "figlet asd >index.gmi" if you want
2019-09-21 19:19:55 jan6 but idk if cgi or such works, would hope it will, eventually
2019-09-21 19:32:21 ~tiwesdaeg creme, jetforce does support CGI scripts
2019-09-21 19:32:58 ~tiwesdaeg I don't know if there is support yet for running CGI inside a regular Gemini file
2019-09-21 19:34:35 creme no problem and thanks for help!
2019-09-21 19:34:52 creme i build a script to create my index.gmi ;=
2019-09-21 19:34:54 creme ;)
2019-09-21 19:38:31 jan6 tiwesdaeg: does it? I tried navigating to the cgi scripts in your folder but it only displayed the contents, copied to my folder and even made into executable (and fixed one's shebang line) but still nada
2019-09-21 19:40:21 jan6 even made a cgi-bin dir just in case, but didn't help
2019-09-21 19:41:40 @tomasino hiya all
2019-09-21 19:41:57 @tomasino might i direct your attention to the latest phlog post on gopher.black for relevant gemini info
2019-09-21 19:42:01 jan6 hai
2019-09-21 19:42:09 @tomasino gopher://gopher.black/1/phlog/20190921-av-98-gopher-proxy-on-gopher-black
2019-09-21 19:43:15 jan6 not on gemini, still ;P
2019-09-21 19:43:33 @tomasino not yet
2019-09-21 19:43:38 @tomasino i may write something on ~black
2019-09-21 19:43:43 @tomasino but my main platform is gopher
2019-09-21 19:43:56 @tomasino i actually have to write up 2 web blog posts tonight
2019-09-21 19:44:04 @tomasino updates for the family on the expat adventures
2019-09-21 19:44:16 @tomasino took my son on his first ever hike and topped his first ever mountain
2019-09-21 19:45:48 jan6 real mountain, or "technically just a tall hill we call mountain here"? ;P
2019-09-21 19:46:02 jan6 probably latter, but still cool
2019-09-21 19:51:04 @tomasino real mountain
2019-09-21 19:58:42 jan6 kewl
2019-09-21 20:03:59 ~tiwesdaeg jan6: you have to specify a specific cgi folder
2019-09-21 20:04:10 ~tiwesdaeg default is gemini-root/cgi-bin
2019-09-21 20:04:29 jan6 well, how'd I do it on ~pink for example, then?
2019-09-21 20:04:44 jan6 I even made a cgi-bin in my own folder, didn't seem to help
2019-09-21 20:04:54 ~tiwesdaeg so, I think for users to execute cgi scripts, we'd have to figure out some sort of symbolically linked shared folder I guess
2019-09-21 20:05:39 ~tiwesdaeg I don't know yet
2019-09-21 20:05:56 ~tiwesdaeg I'd prefer the server allowing cgi in any sub folder
2019-09-21 20:06:16 ~tiwesdaeg I can try making it the gemini root and seeing if it works
2019-09-21 20:13:51 ~tiwesdaeg it doesn't look like I can set cgi-bin directly to the gemini root
2019-09-21 20:38:47 jan6 too bad it doesn't even work in my own cgi-bin or such
2019-09-21 20:39:00 jan6 and linking everyone's cgi together is....probably a very bad idea
2019-09-21 21:11:00 creme can i create in .gmi a link to a https: or gopher: url?
2019-09-21 21:11:24 @tomasino yep
2019-09-21 21:11:26 creme i try to use: => https://xyz.foo link to https site
2019-09-21 21:11:29 @tomasino but the client may not support it
2019-09-21 21:11:31 @tomasino or it may
2019-09-21 21:11:47 creme i use av98
2019-09-21 21:12:09 @tomasino then if you link to gopher it will work only if you also point your gopher_proxy to a gopher to gemini proxy
2019-09-21 21:12:22 @tomasino my phlog posting a little ways up in the log has info on how
2019-09-21 21:12:41 @tomasino as for https, i forget if he's got av-98 set to launch a browser or not
2019-09-21 21:15:33 creme okay i try to understand. i can not directly set a gopher url rather i use a link to the gopherproxy (https) url or to agena url?
2019-09-21 21:16:02 creme and to use https i need to set a browser in av98
2019-09-21 21:16:09 @tomasino you can point to a gopher URL in your .gmi file, but since many clients are so new not many have accounted for how to browse both
2019-09-21 21:16:19 @tomasino bombadillo i think will have both in its new version
2019-09-21 21:16:29 @tomasino and av-98 gets around it by using a proxy called agena
2019-09-21 21:16:43 @tomasino i'm offering a public agena server on gopher.black on port 1965
2019-09-21 21:17:10 @tomasino i'm not sure about the state of https in av98. I can check in abit but i've got another thing in progress at the moment
2019-09-21 21:20:44 creme okay thanks for the infos tomasino
2019-09-21 21:21:41 creme can you pls pastebin me your agena.service file? =)
2019-09-21 21:21:56 creme i will try to setup this gopher-gemini proxy =)
2019-09-21 21:22:42 @tomasino i haven't made a service for it just yet. It's running interactively in a tmux pane. Solderpunk still has a lot of work left on agena, so I'm watching errors to help him
2019-09-21 21:23:21 creme okay .. maybe I'll wait for something else;)
2019-09-21 21:23:59 creme I should anyway first write a small user help page for gemini use.
2019-09-21 21:24:24 creme my gemini page is running now I think like she should :)
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2019-09-30 22:06:52 ℹ You are now known as tomasino--
2019-09-30 22:07:25 ℹ You are now known as tomasino
2019-10-01 00:25:06 ~tiwesdaeg I am totally digging sloum's bombadillo browser for gemini/gopher
2019-10-01 00:28:45 ~tiwesdaeg It puts the url at the top and does both gemini and gopher
2019-10-01 00:28:54 ~tiwesdaeg thought I checked out the tofu branch for that
2019-10-01 00:29:03 ~tiwesdaeg I think the current release is gopher only
2019-10-01 00:29:10 mhj I've tried it before, it is really awesome indeed
2019-10-01 00:29:42 mhj He runs it on colorfield, so I just use it from there
2019-10-01 00:29:51 mhj I think he's a master in minimalism :D
2019-10-01 00:30:58 ~tiwesdaeg I had to read the help file to get the screen to scroll, since I kept trying to use the arrow keys ;P
2019-10-01 00:32:42 mhj It uses vi keys right?
2019-10-01 00:34:38 ~tiwesdaeg j and k for up and down
2019-10-01 00:34:55 ~tiwesdaeg single g and G for top of page and bottom
2019-10-01 00:35:06 mhj Ah
2019-10-01 00:35:27 ~tiwesdaeg you can just type :help and scroll through the whole help file
2019-10-01 00:36:30 ~tiwesdaeg I like the way it handles bookmarks as well
2019-10-01 00:39:02 mhj Ooh
2019-10-01 00:39:16 mhj I didn't bookmark anything so I don't know how well it handles that
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2019-10-01 11:05:02 @tomasino It's pretty nice and different
2019-10-01 15:32:27 mhj yo gemstars
2019-10-01 15:38:50 jan6 aye, pi-rate gemstah
2019-10-01 15:47:22 mhj lol
2019-10-01 18:11:29 julienXX A preview of the next Asuka release https://mastodon.sdf.org/@julienxx/102888107065303015 with somewhat nice colors and the ability to open web/gopher links and any file your OS can open.
2019-10-01 18:18:52 ~tiwesdaeg yay!
2019-10-01 18:19:11 ~tiwesdaeg thanks julienXX, I'll try it out
2019-10-01 18:20:09 julienXX Not yet released, I have quite a bit of cleanup to do before :)
2019-10-01 20:44:48 mhj Ooh sweet
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2019-10-02 15:47:52 ~tiwesdaeg julienXX: I just compiled the newer release of asuka
2019-10-02 15:48:17 ~tiwesdaeg I like the link colors
2019-10-02 15:48:50 ~tiwesdaeg one thing I noticed was that the line highlight is behaving differently
2019-10-02 15:49:26 ~tiwesdaeg previously, when you scroll to a link, it would highlight the whole link, but now it only highlights the area past the link
2019-10-02 15:49:39 ~tiwesdaeg for regular text, it's behaving like the last version
2019-10-02 15:51:28 julienXX Cool, yes that's an issue with the NCurses lib I use I think. No fix yet but I'm searching.
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2020-01-07 10:11:55 ℹ Topic for #gemini is "Gemini (protocol) enthusiasts - gopher://zaibatsu.circumlunar.space:70/1/~solderpunk/gemini"
2020-01-07 10:11:55 ℹ Topic set by tomasino (~tomasino@gopher.black) on Thu, 05 Sep 2019 14:04:13
2020-01-07 10:11:55 ℹ Channel #gemini: 13 nicks (1 op, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 12 normals)
2020-01-07 10:11:57 ℹ Channel created on Sat, 31 Aug 2019 22:41:57
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2020-01-07 13:53:50 bacterio o/
2020-01-07 13:54:14 bacterio trying to download the konpeito mixtape zip with av98
2020-01-07 13:54:38 ~tiwesdaeg is it giving you issues?
2020-01-07 13:54:45 bacterio yep
2020-01-07 13:54:59 ~tiwesdaeg let me try
2020-01-07 13:55:06 bacterio by default it tries to use xdg-open
2020-01-07 13:55:28 bacterio i've tried to set up wget as a handler
2020-01-07 13:55:39 bacterio and i got this error
2020-01-07 13:55:55 bacterio /tmp/tmp7ketnrj0: Scheme missing.
2020-01-07 13:56:16 bacterio probably because wget doesn't understand gemini:// right?
2020-01-07 13:56:32 bacterio so, not sure whats the proper way to download it
2020-01-07 13:56:56 bacterio btw, tiwesdaeg, i'm doing this from tilde.pink
2020-01-07 13:57:02 ~tiwesdaeg ahhh
2020-01-07 13:57:20 ~tiwesdaeg you're trying to store it there, not locally on your computer?
2020-01-07 13:57:48 bacterio yep
2020-01-07 13:58:16 bacterio i don't have av98 in my computer
2020-01-07 13:58:39 bacterio i can install it, tho
2020-01-07 13:59:00 bacterio this is more about understanding how gemini/av98 works
2020-01-07 13:59:06 ~tiwesdaeg bombadillo doesn't like the site because the cert is expired
2020-01-07 13:59:16 bacterio oh, i tried that too
2020-01-07 13:59:22 bacterio yep, same error
2020-01-07 13:59:31 bacterio cert expired
2020-01-07 14:01:13 ~tiwesdaeg I let cat know the other day
2020-01-07 14:02:07 ~tiwesdaeg I'm not super familiar with av98
2020-01-07 14:02:24 ~tiwesdaeg let me see if I can figure out how to get it to download
2020-01-07 14:05:37 bacterio this is what i've used to set the handler
2020-01-07 14:05:40 bacterio handler application/zip wget %s
2020-01-07 14:07:22 tomasino you can dig up the vf-1 repo from solderpunk on github
2020-01-07 14:07:29 tomasino the readme for that pretty much applies to av98
2020-01-07 14:09:13 ~tiwesdaeg all the handlers expect you to be running a gui
2020-01-07 14:11:07 ~tiwesdaeg I tried commenting out the handlers for audio and now it's defaulting to xdg-open
2020-01-07 14:13:04 bacterio tomasino, i got the syntax for the handler from vf1
2020-01-07 14:17:11 ~tiwesdaeg do either even support downloading as an option?
2020-01-07 14:17:34 ~tiwesdaeg I know I downloaded the first mix tape with bombadillo when the cert was working
2020-01-07 14:20:18 bacterio ok
2020-01-07 14:20:45 bacterio i've copied /tmp/tmp7ketnrj0 to ~/konpeito.zip
2020-01-07 14:20:55 bacterio and it works
2020-01-07 14:21:10 tomasino huzzah
2020-01-07 14:21:12 bacterio i can unzip it and the files are there
2020-01-07 14:21:38 bacterio so the handler seems to work
2020-01-07 14:22:11 bacterio and wget downloads the file correctly
2020-01-07 14:22:51 tomasino handler text/plain /usr/bin/fold -sw 80 "%s" | /usr/games/lolcat -f
2020-01-07 14:22:54 tomasino for fun & profit
2020-01-07 14:24:06 ~tiwesdaeg hahah
2020-01-07 14:24:43 bacterio :)
2020-01-07 14:27:04 bacterio seeems like te proble is moving and renaming the temp file...
2020-01-07 14:27:15 bacterio s/ble/blem
2020-01-07 14:29:13 ~tiwesdaeg asuka was the other console gemini browser I could get running
2020-01-07 14:29:18 ~tiwesdaeg just not on netbsd
2020-01-07 14:30:36 bacterio this works well enough for me, now that i know i can download files
2020-01-07 14:30:57 bacterio but i still don't understand the problem and not sure how to debug it
2020-01-07 14:33:42 tomasino i wonder if there's other variables available to the handlers in av98. in vf-1 there isn't a filename or anything, but gemini gives more info
2020-01-07 14:35:32 ~tiwesdaeg it's gotta be something in a python library
2020-01-07 14:36:02 ~tiwesdaeg when the cert is working again, bombadillo works well at downloading mp3s
2020-01-07 14:47:13 bacterio handler application/zip unzip %s
2020-01-07 14:47:17 bacterio works
2020-01-07 14:47:26 bacterio the files get extracted
2020-01-07 14:47:58 bacterio seems like av98 downloads the file to tmp before is passed to the handler
2020-01-07 14:48:49 ~tiwesdaeg it does appear to wait a hot minute for the larger file before responding
2020-01-07 14:49:35 bacterio i think is bc is downloading it
2020-01-07 14:50:19 bacterio i've tried wget and curl as handlers and the tmp file is created and the i got the error
2020-01-07 14:50:20 ℹ Mode #gemini [+o tomasino] by ChanServ
2020-01-07 14:50:37 bacterio s/the/then
2020-01-07 14:51:39 ~tiwesdaeg maybe the mv command?
2020-01-07 14:54:39 bacterio yep, i just tried
2020-01-07 14:55:03 bacterio handler application/zip cp %s kon.zip
2020-01-07 14:55:23 bacterio and it worked just fine
2020-01-07 14:55:59 ~tiwesdaeg mv wouldn't leave the file in tmp
2020-01-07 14:56:14 bacterio sure
2020-01-07 14:56:31 bacterio thats a good thing with files this size
2020-01-07 14:56:33 bacterio :)
2020-01-07 14:57:06 bacterio btw, i hope i'm not abusing pink downloading this thing there
2020-01-07 15:02:25 ~tiwesdaeg go for it
2020-01-07 15:03:46 bacterio nice
2020-01-07 15:04:52 ~tiwesdaeg we have about 15gb of free space currently
2020-01-07 15:05:38 ~tiwesdaeg if tilde.pink does grow beyond that, I'll probably have to give in and move on to a bigger vps
2020-01-07 15:21:25 ben i can grow the disk if you need btw
2020-01-07 15:47:35 bacterio tea
2020-01-07 15:47:38 bacterio oops
2020-01-07 15:53:47 ~tiwesdaeg I don't want to use up too much of your resources
2020-01-07 15:55:18 ben i've got room on this new server
2020-01-07 15:55:50 ~tiwesdaeg all migrations complete?
2020-01-07 15:56:05 ben yeah
2020-01-07 15:58:29 ~tiwesdaeg awesome, any major hurdles?
2020-01-07 15:59:18 ben just slow disk io
2020-01-07 15:59:28 ben took longer than expected but it all worked fine
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2020-01-08 00:53:26 cat konpeito.media should have a proper cert now, if someone wants to test?
2020-01-08 00:58:26 @tomasino Woo
2020-01-08 05:29:57 bacterio just tested. works wit bombadillo and can download the tapes.
2020-01-08 05:30:03 bacterio thanks cat!
2020-01-08 05:36:42 cat ayyy, nice. thanks for confirming
2020-01-08 06:36:19 bacterio np, thank you for putting out the mixtapes
2020-01-08 07:32:42 cat it's my pleasure :3
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2020-01-10 18:28:33 julienXX tiwesdaeg: do you happen to have the latest icon you made as svg?
2020-01-10 20:11:30 ~tiwesdaeg I sure do
2020-01-10 20:12:27 ~tiwesdaeg julienXX: the one where the stars are the same color as the symbol looks the best small
2020-01-10 20:13:54 julienXX Yes! If you can send me a link that would be great, I want to make a first build with an icon :)
2020-01-10 20:16:56 ~tiwesdaeg https://ttm.sh/EiY.svg
2020-01-10 20:20:41 julienXX Perfect! Thanks a lot!
2020-01-10 20:20:51 ~tiwesdaeg no problem
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2020-01-11 16:21:49 julienXX tiwesdaeg: looking good https://imgur.com/a/ZGu2BlF
2020-01-11 16:24:50 ~tiwesdaeg Beautiful
2020-01-11 16:25:22 ~tiwesdaeg I had no issues making an icns file for macos either when I packaged it as an app
2020-01-11 17:07:39 julienXX Pushed a new release (0.4.0) https://git.sr.ht/~julienxx/castor with an icon, a Makefile to ease the installation process and URL mime handlers set which means that clicking a gemini://, gopher:// or finger:// URL in your browser should open Castor.
2020-01-11 17:09:39 @tomasino Huzzah
2020-01-11 18:29:31 ~tiwesdaeg I'll spin it up on debian later today
2020-01-11 18:29:52 ~tiwesdaeg see how the make install process goes
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2020-01-13 13:56:14 ~tiwesdaeg julienXX: make install worked on debian
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2020-01-15 18:04:22 cmccabe is this the right channel for discussing human head transplants?
2020-01-15 18:22:02 @tomasino :D
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2020-01-16 11:06:05 cat i was talking to a non-technical friend about KONPEITO and thought nothing more of it, turns out she managed to find her way to a gemini proxy and grab the tapes
2020-01-16 12:11:56 @tomasino Damn! Very nice
2020-01-16 21:07:02 @tomasino i love portal.mozz.us
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2020-01-16 21:39:42 cat ooh i hadn't seen that one, it's good!
2020-01-16 21:39:58 cat i've been recommending http://proxy.vulpes.one/
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2020-01-17 04:59:08 bacterio vulpes was the name of a spanish teen punk band :)
2020-01-17 04:59:38 bacterio https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZBmBAe2G8g
2020-01-17 05:00:15 bacterio they did a cover The Stooges' 'I wanna be your dog'
2020-01-17 05:01:09 bacterio on public tv.
2020-01-17 05:01:42 bacterio Pretty controversial at the time, lots of cursing.
2020-01-17 05:04:33 bacterio An all female teen punk band singing about women empowering didn't land well
2020-01-17 05:05:02 bacterio they cancel the tv show next day. :(
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2020-01-17 16:35:18 m68k ohh I like how mozz's one looks now
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2020-01-19 01:53:27 @tomasino Lively mailing list chatter today
2020-01-19 02:12:41 cmccabe But I am a little disappointed that nobody wants to refer to gemiNi logs as nogs.
2020-01-19 02:14:43 @tomasino haha
2020-01-19 02:14:48 @tomasino nogs is great
2020-01-19 02:15:57 @tomasino capsule makes the sci-fi aspect nice
2020-01-19 02:16:03 @tomasino but it'll get abbreviated
2020-01-19 02:16:06 @tomasino caps, maybe?
2020-01-19 03:05:32 cmccabe i do actually like the idea of getting away from words that rhyme with log
2020-01-19 03:17:19 cat i like capsule
2020-01-19 06:02:35 @tomasino you're a capsule
2020-01-19 09:38:09 cat true
2020-01-19 09:38:13 cat hahaha
2020-01-19 14:37:05 ~tiwesdaeg captain's log
2020-01-19 14:37:08 ~tiwesdaeg clogs?
2020-01-19 14:37:17 ⚡ tiwesdaeg does a dance
2020-01-19 15:47:47 m68k i call mine a nilog! same structure as blog
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2020-01-21 13:08:50 ℹ Topic for #gemini is "Gemini (protocol) enthusiasts - gopher://zaibatsu.circumlunar.space:70/1/~solderpunk/gemini"
2020-01-21 13:08:50 ℹ Topic set by tomasino (~tomasino@gopher.black) on Thu, 05 Sep 2019 14:04:13
2020-01-21 13:08:50 ℹ Channel #gemini: 15 nicks (1 op, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 14 normals)
2020-01-21 13:08:50 ℹ Mode #gemini [+o tomasino] by ChanServ
2020-01-21 13:09:19 ℹ Channel created on Sat, 31 Aug 2019 22:41:57
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2020-01-23 17:02:03 MrETH1 Hello ppl!! OMG there is free money and Bitcoin here!! : https://freebitco.in/?r=599908
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2020-04-19 15:12:50 ℹ Topic for #gemini is "Gemini (protocol) enthusiasts - gopher://zaibatsu.circumlunar.space:70/1/~solderpunk/gemini"
2020-04-19 15:12:50 ℹ Topic set by tomasino (~tomasino@gopher.black) on Thu, 05 Sep 2019 14:04:13
2020-04-19 15:12:50 ℹ Channel #gemini: 23 nicks (1 op, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 22 normals)
2020-04-19 15:12:50 ℹ Mode #gemini [+o tomasino] by ChanServ
2020-04-19 15:12:52 ℹ Channel created on Sat, 31 Aug 2019 22:41:57
2020-04-19 15:12:57 @tomasino i always fall out of here and forget to come back
2020-04-19 15:13:01 @tomasino thanks for the reminder julienxx
2020-04-19 15:13:47 julienxx you're welcome, perhaps it can bring a bit more activity
2020-04-19 15:15:13 m68k yeah I just logged into ~town to set up a garden ^_^
2020-04-19 15:17:38 @tomasino the mailing list chatter got over my head when it went deep into TLS vs whatever
2020-04-19 15:17:43 @tomasino i stopped reading
2020-04-19 15:19:18 julienxx yeah between the reflow and alternative crypto it was a bit boring, fortunately solderpunk froze the spec so that we can discuss something else
2020-04-19 15:19:31 @tomasino get to adding content
2020-04-19 15:19:41 login does gemini have alt crypto too?
2020-04-19 15:20:14 @tomasino no clue
2020-04-19 15:21:19 julienxx not yet, there was a proposal with a proof of concept to use libsodium
2020-04-19 15:21:27 m68k yeah I need to write some more interesting nilog entries...
2020-04-19 15:21:44 login why not just use libtls?
2020-04-19 15:21:51 login (which uses libsodium underneath i think)
2020-04-19 15:22:12 @tomasino oh go read the bajillion exchanges in the thread
2020-04-19 15:22:47 julienxx login: no idea, I really don't have skills in crypto. Discussion is here https://lists.orbitalfox.eu/archives/gemini/2020/000442.html
2020-04-19 15:24:03 login neither do i
2020-04-19 15:24:21 login yeah, i'll read the bajillion exchanges in the thread when the spec is frozen, thanks tomasino
2020-04-19 15:25:12 julienxx I'm trying to figure out a way to choose a certificate for my graphical browser, this stuff is hard, command line options are much easier :)
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2020-04-20 12:42:41 julienxx tiwesdaeg: I'm working on customizing colors https://mastodon.sdf.org/system/media_attachments/files/006/766/023/original/67dbfd262f73a94f.png
2020-04-20 12:43:58 ~tiwesdaeg Yay, theming!
2020-04-20 12:44:38 ~tiwesdaeg Is that markdown?
2020-04-20 12:52:24 julienxx No, it's a config file. I prefer not to use any web-related technologies in this project.
2020-04-20 12:55:34 @tomasino theming ftw
2020-04-20 12:55:43 @tomasino user determined colors are awesome
2020-04-20 12:56:04 @tomasino besides, we already have the nasty creepy wonderful escape codes for terminal clients that allow them
2020-04-20 12:56:08 julienxx and delimiters too, like the flower for list items :)
2020-04-20 12:58:23 julienxx config looks like https://gist.github.com/julienXX/dc23362ca9e8a04c080e2150b3728c5d at the moment
2020-04-20 12:59:34 @tomasino lovely!
2020-04-20 13:06:20 ~tiwesdaeg I meant the page you are viewing
2020-04-20 13:06:42 ~tiwesdaeg I know there was a big hadoo about lists
2020-04-20 13:07:20 ~tiwesdaeg did we get support for titles/headers in gemini too?
2020-04-20 13:07:28 ~tiwesdaeg like markdown's # ## and ###
2020-04-20 13:09:01 julienxx ah yes it's in the spec now
2020-04-20 13:11:20 julienxx # for headings (can be multiple) and * for unordered lists are defined in the spec
2020-04-20 13:23:40 @tomasino Huzzah
2020-04-20 13:26:58 ~tiwesdaeg so, I can use a middle finger emoji for bullets
2020-04-20 13:27:02 ~tiwesdaeg sounds great
2020-04-20 13:30:19 kkernig If there are headers, clients can implement shortcuts to jump to them. Would be really nice for navigating large documents.
2020-04-20 13:32:46 kkernig Or they can show a poor man's table of content by only showing the headers.
2020-04-20 13:37:04 julienxx tiwesdaeg you can https://imgur.com/7seH69p :D
2020-04-20 13:37:37 ~tiwesdaeg you found the backdoor to image filled gemini pages!
2020-04-20 13:37:51 ~tiwesdaeg but of course, this is end user defined only
2020-04-20 13:39:33 julienxx you can put emojis in your gemini maps too, it's utf8
2020-04-20 13:54:53 ~tiwesdaeg hmmmmmm....
2020-04-20 13:56:31 ~tiwesdaeg so, gemini porn is a bunch of 🍆 and 🌮 emojis
2020-04-20 14:03:55 @tomasino i'm into it
2020-04-20 14:04:21 @tomasino kkernig: absolutely a great feature-add on the client side
2020-04-20 14:10:56 kkernig Are there LaTeX-to-ascii/utf8 compilers? I've seen some really well-readable scientific documents from the 90s typeset that way.
2020-04-20 14:11:39 kkernig That would be a nice way to add elegant content to gemini. Text-only, but spiced up with utf-8 characters.
2020-04-20 15:23:35 kkernig Although it should probably be a "good practice" to avoid obscure unicode characters when possible, since not every client will have a complete font set.
2020-04-20 15:33:38 ~tiwesdaeg does pandoc do it?
2020-04-20 15:33:55 ~tiwesdaeg I was using pandoc a couple days ago to do markdown to pdf
2020-04-20 15:34:50 ~tiwesdaeg I really like the auto table of contents feature
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2020-04-20 23:49:43 kkernig I just saw that in the current gemini spec the idea of using headers for a table of contents is already explained.
2020-04-20 23:50:12 kkernig Section 1.3.5.4.1
2020-04-21 06:59:49 kkernig Question: Is there a reason why three backticks on a line are defined for toggling monospace font? I think backticks are really weird, as they are dead keys on my keyboard.
2020-04-21 07:02:42 kkernig This means I cannot type them easily as isolated characters, as they are intended as modifiers for other characters (e.g. Spanish and French). I can create a single one by typing a backtick and then a character which does not fuse with it (e.g. a number) and then delete that character.
2020-04-21 07:33:18 login kkernig: yeah, gemini needs to be more inclusive
2020-04-21 07:33:25 login they could have gone with !!!
2020-04-21 07:34:13 login it's because markdown uses ``` to designate code
2020-04-21 07:34:15 login that's why
2020-04-21 09:13:38 kkernig Ah ok. Simple ticks (apostrophes) would be fine to me as well. By that I mean those used e.g. in "don't". But I'm not how well they are covered by other keyboard layouts.
2020-04-21 09:16:57 kkernig It should be a sequence which effectively nobody would ever use alone on a line in regular text. I can imagine scenarios where an angry phlog/glog writer with hard-wrapping activated would end up with "!!!" on a line.
2020-04-21 09:22:24 kkernig Something like %%% or &&& seems even more unlikely to be accidentally part of some auto-converted text.
2020-04-21 09:31:16 julienxx Note that those markers should be put on a single line with nothing before or after for them to work
2020-04-21 09:34:21 kkernig I know. That's why !!! might not be the best choice, because if a line ending with "nooo!!!!!!" is somewhat crudely hard-wrapped, !!! could end up alone on the next line. I'm not saying that this is a very likely scenario, but if such an accident is even less likely for other common characters, why not use them?
2020-04-21 09:37:09 kkernig I would assume that virtually every computer keyboard worldwide will have the "%" character, and I cannot think of any situation where one would three of them in a row.
2020-04-21 09:44:10 julienxx backticks were chosen because people using markdown were already used to it I suppose
2020-04-21 09:44:26 julienxx also nobody uses them outside maybe ASCII art
2020-04-21 09:44:45 julienxx I mean nobody uses them alone
2020-04-21 11:23:26 login why not <code>?
2020-04-21 11:23:34 login i jest, of course
2020-04-21 11:33:16 ⚡ tomasino hearts backticks
2020-04-21 11:33:22 @tomasino it's my tmux leader
2020-04-21 11:37:19 julienxx login because it would open the box to having every kind of tags I think
2020-04-21 11:37:48 julienxx which nobody wants, otherwise we would just use html
2020-04-21 11:38:18 login haha yeah
2020-04-21 11:38:40 login gemini is a way to describe directories right?
2020-04-21 11:40:57 julienxx no gemini files just have some syntax for headings, lists, preformatted blocks and links
2020-04-21 11:41:43 julienxx but gemini is a protocol that can serve anything, mime types are used so you could serve html, txt, mp3 whatever
2020-04-21 11:56:44 @tomasino this syntax is specifically for the gemini index files
2020-04-21 11:57:00 @tomasino if you wanted you are fully in your rights to serve text/markdown or whatever
2020-04-21 12:10:14 kkernig Just wondering, are backticks easier to type on US keyboard layouts?
2020-04-21 12:13:04 julienxx kkernig compared to a French keyboard they are yes, single key press just above tab
2020-04-21 13:12:01 ~tiwesdaeg ```
2020-04-21 13:12:10 ~tiwesdaeg right below our beloved ~
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2020-04-21 14:56:04 kkernig I have a German keyboard. Here they are left of the backspace, but need shift pressed and only appear together with other characters. Like `1
2020-04-21 14:57:47 kkernig My ~ is left of the return key and needs the right alt modifier pressed. But it's fairly comfortable to type.
2020-04-21 14:57:59 ~tiwesdaeg I can't even type umlout on mine :(
2020-04-21 14:58:11 ~tiwesdaeg ..
2020-04-21 14:58:15 ~tiwesdaeg close enough?
2020-04-21 15:03:20 kkernig Ümläüt :D
2020-04-21 15:05:52 kkernig I think if the Umlaut keys are not available, it's best to just type a, o and u. Will look a bit weird, but won't cause any great confusions. Alternatively, use ä=ae, ö=oe, ü=ue.
2020-04-21 15:10:10 ~tiwesdaeg I just use the extra e like in verrueckt
2020-04-21 15:12:05 kkernig On German web forums there are sometimes people who apparently don't use a German keyboard layout and constantly use the extra e. I do find that a bit annoying after a while.
2020-04-21 15:12:19 kkernig But for the occasional German word/quote it's perfectly fine.
2020-04-21 15:14:27 ~tiwesdaeg there's always ctrl-c ctrl-v üüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüü
2020-04-21 15:15:39 kkernig I just found out that Ctrl+Shift+ß is backspace on my Keyboard.
2020-04-21 15:16:53 kkernig ¿Que?
2020-04-21 15:19:41 kkernig ×_-¯-_× µº’.Ħ.ªı€ΩÆ›>‹<©Ð¥↑ıÞØ° Exploring Shift+Right Alt modifiers... I'll stop that now. But we can have all of that in gemini!
2020-04-21 15:32:50 @tomasino having the wrong accented vowels in iceland will make your text 100% unreadable
2020-04-21 15:33:02 @tomasino compose key FTW
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2020-04-24 06:24:21 styan I am wondering, are the possibly infinite whitespaces in the response header to allow for possible (random?) padding?
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2020-04-24 09:06:06 southerntofu you mean padding as in crypto padding?
2020-04-24 09:07:34 styan I am reffering to the following part of the Gemini spec: <whitespace> is any non-zero number of consecutive spaces or tabs.
2020-04-24 09:08:20 southerntofu (sry i'm not familiar at all with gemini which is why i'm asking also)
2020-04-24 09:10:26 southerntofu just reading it now it sounds like it's to allow for it not to crash if you add spaces? like if you hand craft a reply? idk
2020-04-24 09:14:38 styan My guesses are either to allow the server to align packets (multiple of 8 bytes, for example), to allow the server to mess with the total length (anti-fingerprinting), or to allow for fixed-size headers (I don't know why).
2020-04-24 09:15:17 styan I am not too knowledgable about networking, so I can not say what is most likely.
2020-04-24 09:16:38 southerntofu fixed-size headers somehow makes sense to make parsing easier but i doubt that's the case (i didn't see that)
2020-04-24 09:17:12 styan Also, literally infinite spaces makes parsing harder.
2020-04-24 09:17:23 southerntofu also encryption-related padding should take place on the TLS side not in the plaintext headers
2020-04-24 09:17:50 southerntofu how so ? while char == ' ' { continue; }
2020-04-24 09:18:03 styan Cool, I did not know that was part of TLS.
2020-04-24 09:18:44 styan Because you have to account for the header being split between reads.
2020-04-24 09:20:09 southerntofu or headers.split_whitespace() <-- if you use a fancier language
2020-04-24 09:20:21 southerntofu what do you mean a header is split between reads?
2020-04-24 09:20:51 southerntofu (also yes padding is part of any good TLS library, you can do TLS without padding but encryptiong without padding or with bad padding is as good as zero encryption :D)
2020-04-24 09:22:55 styan So, for example, reading 2048 octets where the first two are the status, the next 1021 characters are spaces, and a full sized (1024 octet) META section would have it end with the CR of the CR-LF.
2020-04-24 09:24:09 styan Of course 1021 characters of useless spaces seems like a silly case to account for, which is why I wanted to know more. :-)
2020-04-24 09:24:25 southerntofu what would it change for your parser?
2020-04-24 09:25:32 styan In my case, I have overengineered it into a state-machine.
2020-04-24 09:25:38 southerntofu oooooo :)
2020-04-24 09:26:27 southerntofu well your state machine can certainly loop over a state of whitespace stripping until it meets any other char?
2020-04-24 09:27:05 styan No, I put everything in the state machine, hence my overengineering :-)
2020-04-24 09:27:16 southerntofu (also why would a digit be a full byte? 2 digits should be a single byte (<128)
2020-04-24 09:27:59 styan Because the header is text, not binary.
2020-04-24 09:28:04 southerntofu oh k
2020-04-24 09:28:20 southerntofu that makes sense ^^
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2020-04-24 14:07:10 ~tiwesdaeg julienxx: going to try out compiling castor on openbsd today
2020-04-24 14:12:32 julienxx cool, I just installed it on my laptop today :) Not sure I'll keep it though, wifi performance is awful and the fans are kinda always on
2020-04-24 14:14:39 ~tiwesdaeg I revived an old small form factor cor 2 duo desktop and installed openbsd on it
2020-04-24 14:15:11 ~tiwesdaeg I know rustup doesn't work on openbsd, so we'll see if we can get this to compile
2020-04-24 14:16:12 ~tiwesdaeg I just realized that my rust version is 1.38 :(
2020-04-24 14:16:23 ~tiwesdaeg let me see if I can learn how to upgrade to current
2020-04-24 14:22:58 julienxx sysupgrade -c if I'm not mistaken
2020-04-24 14:26:48 ~tiwesdaeg -s for snapshot
2020-04-24 14:27:04 ~tiwesdaeg which is more stable starting point
2020-04-24 14:27:28 ~tiwesdaeg netbsd has rustup support
2020-04-24 14:27:42 ~tiwesdaeg I wonder what openbsd is doing wrong
2020-04-24 14:29:50 southerntofu tiwesdaeg: 1.38 isn't so bad on ~fr i've only got 1.34 (debian buster) :)
2020-04-24 14:37:48 southerntofu still it could compile lsd, but nothing else i tried :D
2020-04-24 14:38:02 ~tiwesdaeg you can use rustup on buster
2020-04-24 14:38:19 southerntofu yeah i probably should, but i wanted as much as possible to use distro packages
2020-04-24 14:38:22 ~tiwesdaeg I am now upgrading all packages
2020-04-24 14:38:28 ~tiwesdaeg we'll see how long this takes
2020-04-24 14:38:38 ~tiwesdaeg the debian way
2020-04-24 14:38:55 ~tiwesdaeg I'm a bad debian user
2020-04-24 14:39:03 ~tiwesdaeg sometimes I compile things myself
2020-04-24 14:39:50 southerntofu who doesn't? :P
2020-04-24 14:40:23 southerntofu later today i'll compile lua-pam so i can use UNIX accounts for Jabber authentication backend :)
2020-04-24 14:40:42 ~tiwesdaeg and when I'm feeling extra frisky, I drop binaries and scripts in to /bin
2020-04-24 14:41:09 southerntofu is it wrong? i often fail to think of /usr/local/bin and do that too :P
2020-04-24 14:41:53 ~tiwesdaeg it's wrong in the moral sense?
2020-04-24 14:41:58 ~tiwesdaeg not the functional
2020-04-24 14:43:00 southerntofu :D
2020-04-24 14:43:48 ~tiwesdaeg I mean, you could make your own linux distro and put everything in /bin
2020-04-24 14:44:16 ~tiwesdaeg everything.......... like, one monolithic directory for all files
2020-04-24 14:44:21 ~tiwesdaeg for fun
2020-04-24 14:46:38 southerntofu :)
2020-04-24 14:49:50 m68k gemini://gemini.68kmentat.com/images/astrobotany.png
2020-04-24 14:50:00 m68k astrobotany on a 33 year old pc 8)
2020-04-24 15:05:55 julienxx awesome!
2020-04-24 15:22:36 ~tiwesdaeg ok, now I have rust 1.42!
2020-04-24 15:30:57 ~tiwesdaeg hmmm
2020-04-24 15:31:09 ~tiwesdaeg openssl failure
2020-04-24 15:31:35 ~tiwesdaeg I installed openssl 1.1.1, but openbsd uses libressl natively
2020-04-24 15:32:50 ~tiwesdaeg cargo:libressl_version_number=3010000f
2020-04-24 15:38:58 ~tiwesdaeg looks like it has something to do with the -current version of libressl
2020-04-24 15:46:16 ~tiwesdaeg April 8th, libressl 3.1 was released :(
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2020-04-26 08:51:11 styan ¹
2020-04-26 08:51:20 styan Whoops.
2020-04-26 10:11:12 julienxx tiwesdaeg: I made an openbsd branch which builds successfully. I add to bump some values in /etc/login.conf though because some libs like gtk where needing more memory to build.
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2020-04-26 13:08:35 ~tiwesdaeg julienxx: I'll try it out today
2020-04-26 13:10:05 ~tiwesdaeg julienxx: are you building on 6.7 stable?
2020-04-26 13:11:54 ~tiwesdaeg I upgraded to current and my libressl is too new to be supported by one of hte modules
2020-04-26 13:27:59 julienxx 6.7 snapshot, I don’t think there is a stable yet
2020-04-26 13:43:36 ~tiwesdaeg ok, I'll try the branch out in a few minutes
2020-04-26 13:43:45 ~tiwesdaeg still working on morning coffee
2020-04-26 14:04:45 julienxx if you get llvm issues complaining about memory you'll have to tweak some values in /etc/login.conf
2020-04-26 14:06:39 ~tiwesdaeg I already upped mine to 4096mb right after install
2020-04-26 14:18:45 ~tiwesdaeg hey, I remembered how to checkout a branch all by myself!
2020-04-26 14:27:48 ~tiwesdaeg made it past openssl
2020-04-26 14:32:58 ~tiwesdaeg glib is making this old core2duo work for its money
2020-04-26 14:42:03 ~tiwesdaeg it works!
2020-04-26 14:42:09 ~tiwesdaeg my dark theme is making a mess of things
2020-04-26 14:43:34 ~tiwesdaeg did you take that screenshot with twm or fvwm2?
2020-04-26 14:46:58 ~tiwesdaeg also, shouldn't castor_settings.toml be in ~/.config/castor/castor_settings.toml ?
2020-04-26 14:47:33 ~tiwesdaeg I think ~/.local/share is for storing images and fonts and other files, not configuration files
2020-04-26 14:47:49 ~tiwesdaeg super happy I got this running on openbsd, thanks!
2020-04-26 14:51:47 ~tiwesdaeg Also, gopher font color stays white
2020-04-26 15:21:56 julienxx Great! I didn’t try the setting yet, the shot was taken under fvwm yes
2020-04-26 15:22:34 julienxx That’s a good point for the config files I’m not sure where they belong on every OS
2020-04-26 15:23:22 julienxx The openbsd branch is the same as master except I use my forks of the ssl libs to allow the latest libressl while it’s not merged
2020-04-26 15:24:48 m68k ~/%APPDATALOCAL%/.castor ?
2020-04-26 15:42:05 ~tiwesdaeg I think ~/.config/ is pretty standard across the unix spectrum
2020-04-26 15:42:30 ~tiwesdaeg I mean, you can put a config file anywhere that is user writable, but then there's best practice
2020-04-26 15:42:58 ~tiwesdaeg some programs still use ~/ for their dotfiles, but I that just turns in to a big mess
2020-04-26 15:43:02 m68k yeah it ought to be, and I guess makefiles aren't common anymore but aren't they supposed to take care of differences as the arise?
2020-04-26 15:43:21 @tomasino $XDG_CONFIG_HOME please
2020-04-26 15:43:22 ~tiwesdaeg I really like ~/.config/program-name/
2020-04-26 15:43:56 m68k yeah home directory pollution is bad
2020-04-26 15:44:07 @tomasino that's for config. If you want cache files there's $XDG_CACHE_HOME
2020-04-26 15:44:50 julienxx good to know, thanks!
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2020-04-26 18:53:43 ℹ Topic for #gemini is "Gemini (protocol) enthusiasts - gopher://zaibatsu.circumlunar.space:70/1/~solderpunk/gemini"
2020-04-26 18:53:43 ℹ Topic set by tomasino (~tomasino@gopher.black) on Thu, 05 Sep 2019 14:04:13
2020-04-26 18:53:43 ℹ Channel #gemini: 20 nicks (1 op, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 19 normals)
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2020-04-26 19:08:52 ℹ Topic for #gemini is "Gemini (protocol) enthusiasts - gopher://zaibatsu.circumlunar.space:70/1/~solderpunk/gemini"
2020-04-26 19:08:52 ℹ Topic set by tomasino (~tomasino@gopher.black) on Thu, 05 Sep 2019 14:04:13
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2020-04-26 19:10:20 ℹ Topic for #gemini is "Gemini (protocol) enthusiasts - gopher://zaibatsu.circumlunar.space:70/1/~solderpunk/gemini"
2020-04-26 19:10:20 ℹ Topic set by tomasino (~tomasino@gopher.black) on Thu, 05 Sep 2019 14:04:13
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2020-04-26 19:21:34 ℹ Topic for #gemini is "Gemini (protocol) enthusiasts - gopher://zaibatsu.circumlunar.space:70/1/~solderpunk/gemini"
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2020-04-27 14:53:33 julienxx Hi Geminauts
2020-04-27 14:55:13 julienxx tiwesdaeg: I fixed the gopher text color in Castor. Also added the ability to choose between monospaced/serif fonts for every protocol and moved the settings and bookmarks to some proper place
2020-04-27 14:58:15 ~tiwesdaeg aswesome
2020-04-27 14:58:26 ~tiwesdaeg I'll get to compiling again
2020-04-27 15:01:26 ~tiwesdaeg julienxx: do you use fvwm as your daily driver?
2020-04-27 15:01:46 ~tiwesdaeg I always feel awkward resizing windows
2020-04-27 15:02:20 julienxx yes for my personal laptop but since a few weeks, I use sway on the work one
2020-04-27 15:03:12 julienxx it keeps the sizes between sessions so resizing once with the mouse is not too bad
2020-04-27 15:05:31 julienxx what do you use?
2020-04-27 15:07:21 ~tiwesdaeg I am using i3 on this openbsd desktop I put together for work
2020-04-27 15:07:28 ~tiwesdaeg so, basically sway
2020-04-27 15:08:07 julienxx I tried cwm a bit which is quite nice, but I wanted to get away from tiling a bit so fvwm for now
2020-04-27 15:08:14 ~tiwesdaeg I also hop around between xfce and kde at home
2020-04-27 15:08:39 julienxx latest kde seems pretty good, I should try it again some time
2020-04-27 15:10:43 ~tiwesdaeg I thought cwm was stacking not tiling
2020-04-27 15:11:30 ~tiwesdaeg I was using it for a bit on here, since it comes wit the base openbsd installation
2020-04-27 15:11:56 ~tiwesdaeg I am just so slow in getting it to work and I like have the i3status bar
2020-04-27 15:12:37 julienxx cwm does stacking and can do some tiling, I set it up like my sway basically. I'm quite a WM hopper :)
2020-04-27 15:12:50 m68k I used twm, then vtwm, then fvwm for years on my laptop. very minimal setup, windows only had a 3px border and manipulation was done with keypresses. I switched to dwm a few years ago mainly for an integrated status bar but would like to go back to a TWM-like stacking
2020-04-27 15:19:59 ~tiwesdaeg how well do bars integrate with twm style wms?
2020-04-27 15:20:15 ~tiwesdaeg I know cwm didn't do well with a bar
2020-04-27 15:33:53 m68k it's not *that* hard to set a zone where windows can't move in twm-descendants, but I always tried to use dockapps instead since they were more authentic
2020-04-27 15:34:26 m68k only problem is most dockapps are very old and the ones that can compile don't work right
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2020-04-27 15:52:24 julienxx fvwm buttons are pretty good for that http://www.fvwm.org/documentation/manpages/FvwmButtons.html but fvwm is quite awful to setup
2020-04-27 15:54:10 ⚡ wangofett is a fan of i3wm
2020-04-27 15:54:14 wangofett it's always just worked for me
2020-04-27 15:55:17 wangofett it's geared towards tiling, but you can do other stacking, and you can control all the things with keypresses
2020-04-27 15:56:21 m68k yeah I think that's why I ended up switching to FVWM. It was pretty good, I think I switched to dwm just because I read programmernerds going off about how tiling managers are modern and superior...
2020-04-27 16:00:48 julienxx Regarding fonts in Castor do you have an opinion on what should be the default? I allow monospace or serif at the moment. Monospace would seem like a good default to preserve ascii art but at the same time reading text in serif is pleasant I think for a GUI app.
2020-04-27 16:01:47 m68k I would prefer serif, switch to monoscape when the document calls for it
2020-04-27 16:03:14 m68k I think variable-width fonts are conventional for graphical programs & those conventions are why I'd be using it
2020-04-27 16:04:16 julienxx cool, I need to implement dynamic switching, not there yet
2020-04-27 16:07:34 wangofett julienxx: what are you writing it in?
2020-04-27 16:07:52 julienxx it's GTK with Rust
2020-04-27 16:08:46 wangofett Nice. I think you could add a button to toggle between reading mode (variable width) and browsing mode (monospace)
2020-04-27 16:09:00 wangofett of course if it's loading HTML then it should respect that
2020-04-27 16:11:21 julienxx it's not a webview, just pure GTK text and components. I could reload the page and apply a setting, I'm just not sure how it should be materialized in the UI. Just a button I guess.
2020-04-27 16:12:02 julienxx like the "reader mode" in web browsers could be nice
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2020-04-27 19:24:26 ~tiwesdaeg thanks julienxx, now I have wasted half the day playing with fvwm
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2020-04-27 21:10:47 julienxx Haha have fun!
2020-04-27 22:04:21 @tomasino i believe breadpunk.club offers gemini hosting
2020-04-27 22:04:24 @tomasino are they on the server list?
2020-04-28 01:30:24 styan And I just moved a header-file onto the C file I have spent hours on...
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2020-04-28 07:29:04 julienxx breadpunk.club looks cool!
2020-04-28 08:56:57 styan It seems to have a good crumb.
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2020-04-28 10:59:25 @tomasino :)
2020-04-28 15:23:27 ~tiwesdaeg I went down some WM rabbit holes and now I'm using NsCDE
2020-04-28 15:23:51 ~tiwesdaeg it emulates CDE, but with FVWM as the WM for a more modern approach
2020-04-28 15:23:59 ~tiwesdaeg super fun!
2020-04-28 15:25:32 m68k thank you tiwesdaeg! the discussion made me try to find a WM folks were talking about recently, but I couldn't find it in my bookmarks. looks like I've visited NsCDE's webpage, so maybe that's the one :)
2020-04-28 15:27:40 julienxx NsCDE is really nice!
2020-04-28 15:28:58 julienxx NsCDE with your icon tiwesdaeg https://mastodon.sdf.org/system/media_attachments/files/006/606/048/original/5a0f45a7fdd3409c.png?1586013069 :)
2020-04-28 15:32:24 ~tiwesdaeg woo, I'm working on figuring it all out
2020-04-28 15:32:48 ~tiwesdaeg I've used CDE professional a bit here and there
2020-04-28 15:33:11 ~tiwesdaeg some of the US military weapon systems still use Solaris with CDE
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2020-04-28 15:39:11 ~tiwesdaeg I'm trying to get used to the front panel
2020-04-28 15:41:09 ~tiwesdaeg NsCDE does seem to force Castor to use the system theme
2020-04-28 15:41:47 julienxx yes NsCDE applies GTK and QT themes automatically
2020-04-28 15:45:14 ~tiwesdaeg is there a way to disable that in your application if a user wants to define the theme?
2020-04-28 15:45:40 julienxx I don't think so, GTK themes are kinda global
2020-04-28 15:45:50 ~tiwesdaeg hmmm
2020-04-28 15:45:53 julienxx that's the point to have a unified experience
2020-04-28 15:46:17 ~tiwesdaeg I had to set the main font as mono to get castor to display correctly
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2020-04-29 04:25:43 styan Have any clients implemented "known_hosts" style certificate checking? I can not seem to find one that has.
2020-04-29 04:27:23 styan Oh hey, tildegit is a thing.
2020-04-29 04:32:29 ben sure is :0
2020-04-29 04:32:31 ben :)
2020-04-29 04:44:48 styan And, account activation does not work...
2020-04-29 04:46:09 ben it's whitelisted to tilde emails
2020-04-29 04:46:22 ben there were dozens of spam accounts being created
2020-04-29 04:46:31 styan I used my email on tilde.black
2020-04-29 04:46:37 ben ah yeah that should work
2020-04-29 04:46:59 ben what was the error?
2020-04-29 04:47:08 styan It created the account, just that the activation code was "Invalid or Expired"
2020-04-29 04:47:23 ben mail logs say it sent
2020-04-29 04:47:32 ben huh
2020-04-29 04:47:42 ben just manually activated it
2020-04-29 04:47:43 styan I got it, and entered it, but then it fails.
2020-04-29 04:47:58 styan Cool, but the mystery still perplexes.
2020-04-29 04:48:33 ben i'm seeing 4 emails going out
2020-04-29 04:48:35 ben not sure why it's 4
2020-04-29 04:49:05 styan I retryed because it asked me to, then with a better system time, then from tilde.black itself.
2020-04-29 04:49:31 styan Maybe not in that order?
2020-04-29 05:05:29 styan And, I published my client library :-) https://tildegit.org/styan/libgeminiclient
2020-04-29 05:05:56 styan It is still under commented and documented, and probably a bit messy though.
2020-04-29 05:26:30 ben cool :)
2020-04-29 05:27:06 styan Thanks for your help with tildegit.
2020-04-29 05:27:34 styan P.S. It probably needs libbsd on Linux.
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2020-04-29 08:32:34 julienxx I think bombadillo has implemented certificates check
2020-04-29 08:34:06 julienxx thanks for the lib styan! I'll probably use it for an upcoming project
2020-04-29 08:41:11 login ooh, certificates check is nice (also v critical code)
2020-04-29 08:44:11 styan My library uses "$host $hash $expires" triples and mostly compairs hashes, bombadillo seems to use "$host=$cert" with the whole certificate, I wonder if the latter has any major advantages?
2020-04-29 08:46:44 styan If you do end up using my code and run into any usability problems, do let me know. Note that it does depend on LibreSSL via libtls.
2020-04-29 08:53:25 styan Also, I will add a BSD0 licence when I add a README and more man-pages. :-)
2020-04-29 08:58:59 login so it's custom certificates or is there a ca thing?
2020-04-29 08:59:05 login ca, certificate transparency, etc.
2020-04-29 09:01:57 styan The point mentioned in the spec is so that self-signed certificates are first class citizens, so it is meant to check the server certificate against what was previously seen from that particular host.
2020-04-29 09:05:50 styan Custom client certificates are easier to implement and seem much more common among Gemini clients. Things like: `gemini-client -C custom-certificate-file -K custom-key-file'
2020-04-29 09:09:43 login oh, so it's more like certificate pinning?
2020-04-29 09:10:00 login with each gemini site having its own ca
2020-04-29 09:11:09 styan The example used is the spec for TOFU (Trust On First Use) is SSH, where when you make a new SSH connection it asks you if it is okay then adds that host's information to ~/.ssh/known_hosts.
2020-04-29 09:11:51 login you know, big companies use ssh keys as "session keys"
2020-04-29 09:11:57 login and have an SSH CA
2020-04-29 09:22:14 styan Interesting. I am not sure if I knew that, maybe I heard something about it but was not paying it much attention, or it just sounds aggressively plausible.
2020-04-29 09:32:08 styan I may have some unreasonable affection for the phrase "aggressively plausible" :-)
2020-04-29 09:39:56 login openssh even has native CA support
2020-04-29 09:40:17 login so if, in the future, say, let's encrypt starts being an SSH CA
2020-04-29 09:40:24 login etc...
2020-04-29 09:40:33 login however, the keys are not that long lived
2020-04-29 09:40:43 login much shorter than the three months of let's encrypt
2020-04-29 09:40:50 login just a single session
2020-04-29 09:40:53 login this is good for privacy reasons too
2020-04-29 09:49:59 styan But for the purposes of Gemini, that is just to apply some form of certificate-validation without imposing the whole CA model onto hosts. I am unsure if this is a tangent, but if it is it is an interesting one. :-)
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2020-04-29 19:24:19 ~tiwesdaeg has anyone figured out cgi scripts yet?
2020-04-29 19:24:35 ~tiwesdaeg I feel like I'm just shooting int he dark trying to get this to work
2020-04-29 19:24:48 ~tiwesdaeg currently using molly-brown for the gemini server
2020-04-29 19:28:37 @tomasino have not tried
2020-04-29 19:55:18 ~tiwesdaeg I just get errors
2020-04-29 19:59:22 @tomasino maybe that's what's supposed to happen!
2020-04-29 19:59:31 @tomasino cgis that only create errors
2020-04-29 19:59:34 @tomasino could be very useful
2020-04-29 20:14:48 ~tiwesdaeg I figured it out on jetforce
2020-04-29 20:14:58 ~tiwesdaeg mollybrown just crashes the clients
2020-04-29 20:15:18 @tomasino what did you do on jettforce
2020-04-29 20:15:23 @tomasino that's what i use
2020-04-29 20:15:27 ~tiwesdaeg echo "20 text/gemini"
2020-04-29 20:15:43 ~tiwesdaeg then whatever else you want the script to output
2020-04-29 20:15:46 @tomasino oh
2020-04-29 20:15:52 @tomasino okay
2020-04-29 20:15:53 ~tiwesdaeg it was 20 I was missing
2020-04-29 20:16:00 @tomasino right, the success code
2020-04-29 20:16:21 ~tiwesdaeg let's try python!
2020-04-29 20:18:54 ~tiwesdaeg works as well
2020-04-29 20:19:42 ~tiwesdaeg so, I don't think solderpunk has cgi fully working yet
2020-04-29 20:20:50 @tomasino OHNOES
2020-04-29 20:20:54 @tomasino solderpunk!
2020-04-29 20:22:22 ~tiwesdaeg I mean, it's not like I've even written a gemini server
2020-04-29 20:23:29 @tomasino i was gonna, but things kept getting harder
2020-04-29 20:24:35 @tomasino i wanted to try doing one in Ada but i hit 2 walls
2020-04-29 20:24:42 @tomasino 1) just doing anything with text at all
2020-04-29 20:24:56 @tomasino 2) tls. couldn't figure out how the hell to do anything with TLS
2020-04-29 21:33:07 ~tiwesdaeg yeah, tls scares me
2020-04-29 21:33:41 ~tiwesdaeg I always want to use telnet to try and debug gemini, but tls
2020-04-29 21:54:31 @tomasino it puts coding into a different category
2020-04-29 21:54:44 @tomasino if you're in a language with an easy library, like python, you don't have to think about it
2020-04-29 21:55:05 @tomasino but in ada i search and search and the best i can tell i needto figure out how to link to system libraries. that's not a thing I have any clue how to do
2020-04-29 21:55:12 @tomasino it's not a basic thing, that's for sure
2020-04-29 23:07:49 ben tomasino: openssl s_client
2020-04-29 23:17:33 @tomasino Can I use that in ada somehow?
2020-04-29 23:31:50 ben oh
2020-04-29 23:31:52 ben idk
2020-04-29 23:31:57 ben it's a shell tool
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2020-05-01 07:58:53 styan Does anyone have thoughts on conventional vs plan9 style includes for C libraries?
2020-05-01 08:01:25 login conventional
2020-05-01 08:06:20 styan I have been using plan9 style headers in all of my personal projects and now conventional headers including header files look weird to me.
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2020-05-01 20:21:22 epoch found a typo in the spec
2020-05-01 20:21:40 epoch "authors of text/gemini content SHOULD avoid hard-wrapping to a
2020-05-01 20:21:42 epoch pecific fixed width"
2020-05-01 20:21:52 epoch pecific is missing an 's'
2020-05-01 20:25:28 @tomasino we only deal in pacific widths. not atlantic
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2020-05-02 05:33:07 pentangle im in
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2020-05-02 11:13:53 jan6 you're in, or are you, pentangle ;P
2020-05-02 11:26:08 pentangle lol I'm about to be out, as in passed out
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2020-05-02 21:18:01 makeworld Hello
2020-05-02 21:18:59 @tomasino hi
2020-05-02 21:19:24 makeworld Success! Lol
2020-05-02 21:19:44 @tomasino heh
2020-05-02 21:19:58 makeworld Just found about Gemini from HN yesterday, been exploring and it's pretty cool
2020-05-02 21:20:22 @tomasino oh, glad you found your way here hten
2020-05-02 21:20:32 makeworld Yeah, from the mailing list
2020-05-02 21:20:33 @tomasino yeah, gemini is a nice little gem
2020-05-02 21:20:58 makeworld I've also been exploring gopher for the first time too
2020-05-02 21:21:09 makeworld Bombadillo has been good for both
2020-05-02 21:21:17 @tomasino yes, and castor as well
2020-05-02 21:21:37 @tomasino more and more hybrid clients coming along
2020-05-02 21:21:43 @tomasino it's a lovely little renaissance
2020-05-02 21:21:54 makeworld Yeah it seems like an interesting community
2020-05-02 21:22:03 makeworld Everyone hungry for the old web days
2020-05-02 21:22:17 @tomasino just livin' and enjoying the small internet
2020-05-02 21:22:29 makeworld I tried Castor although it crashed when clicked Show Bookmarsk lol
2020-05-02 21:22:32 makeworld Yeah
2020-05-02 21:22:50 @tomasino oh, whoops!
2020-05-02 21:22:57 @tomasino julienxx ^^
2020-05-02 21:23:42 makeworld I installed it from AUR if that makes any difference
2020-05-02 21:24:03 makeworld thread 'main' panicked at 'called `Result::unwrap()` on an `Err` value: RelativeUrlWithoutBase', src/draw.rs:257:27
2020-05-02 21:24:05 makeworld note: run with `RUST_BACKTRACE=1` environment variable to display a backtrace
2020-05-02 21:26:40 makeworld Are there any other cool clients I should check out?
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2020-05-02 21:39:36 @tomasino oh yes
2020-05-02 21:39:41 @tomasino there's a whole page
2020-05-02 21:39:43 @tomasino lemme find you a link
2020-05-02 21:39:59 @tomasino https://www.circumlunar.space/~solderpunk/clients.html
2020-05-02 21:40:02 @tomasino this is the gopher client page
2020-05-02 21:40:20 @tomasino there's a gemini version of this page too
2020-05-02 21:40:30 @tomasino i just need to remember where it is
2020-05-02 21:46:03 makeworld Oh yeah I've seen that
2020-05-02 21:46:28 makeworld gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space:1965/software/
2020-05-02 21:48:38 @tomasino ahh, there ya go
2020-05-02 21:49:34 makeworld Bombadillo seems to be the best
2020-05-02 21:50:59 @tomasino it's a great overall client
2020-05-02 21:51:07 @tomasino i use lynx still out of habit in gopher most of the time
2020-05-02 21:51:07 makeworld Any thoughts on what the best server is right now?
2020-05-02 21:51:12 @tomasino vf1 is fantastic
2020-05-02 21:51:18 makeworld Oh nice
2020-05-02 21:51:24 @tomasino and av98 is the gemini version of vf1
2020-05-02 21:51:36 @tomasino gemini server wise i use jetforce on tilde.black
2020-05-02 21:51:39 makeworld Yeah tried that, but bombadillo feels more interactive to me
2020-05-02 21:51:41 @tomasino it was the easiest to install
2020-05-02 21:51:45 @tomasino :D
2020-05-02 21:52:59 makeworld Oh Jetforce looks good
2020-05-02 21:53:21 @tomasino yeah, it's quite simple to get running
2020-05-02 21:53:42 @tomasino it has some handy convenience stuff too, like generating self-signed certs if you don't have your own to point to
2020-05-02 21:53:48 makeworld Is there source code for gus anywhere?
2020-05-02 21:53:52 makeworld Oh cool
2020-05-02 21:54:02 @tomasino yeah, source is out there too
2020-05-02 21:54:07 @tomasino um, where was that
2020-05-02 21:54:18 @tomasino https://github.com/michael-lazar/jetforce
2020-05-02 21:54:48 makeworld No I meant for GUS, the search engine
2020-05-02 21:54:57 @tomasino ooooh
2020-05-02 21:54:59 @tomasino GUS? no idea
2020-05-02 21:56:11 makeworld It's too bad it's not listed on the site or anything
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2020-05-02 21:56:33 makeworld It better not be *gasp* closed source!
2020-05-02 21:56:35 makeworld Lol
2020-05-02 21:56:42 wingy Hi I'm new to this channel :)
2020-05-02 21:57:00 wingy Gemini did really well on HN and lobste.rs for some reason
2020-05-02 21:57:07 wingy Looks interesting
2020-05-02 21:57:09 makeworld Hello!
2020-05-02 21:57:35 @tomasino yah, i'm happily surprised
2020-05-02 21:57:58 @tomasino gemini has been a nice little secret party for a few months now, but i guess it's scratching an itch many others share
2020-05-02 22:00:24 makeworld I was trying access the konpeito mixtape, but it seems like it's got cert issues
2020-05-02 22:25:10 @tomasino oh really?
2020-05-02 22:25:18 @tomasino cat has been stuck offline for a couple weeks
2020-05-02 22:25:27 @tomasino he's moving and the new internet company is screwing things up
2020-05-02 22:25:37 @tomasino hopefully he'll be back up soon and will fix that up
2020-05-02 22:33:33 calmbit the spec is just beautiful enough to make me want to make a client despite it being practically unnecessary
2020-05-02 22:47:19 makeworld Haha ikr, I feel the same way
2020-05-02 22:47:23 makeworld I just wanna build on it
2020-05-02 22:47:43 makeworld tomasino: Good to hear it's not abandoned
2020-05-02 22:48:54 @tomasino Oh certainly not
2020-05-02 22:49:04 @tomasino He's got 2 new tapes ready to drop
2020-05-02 22:49:10 @tomasino Just as soon as he can get online
2020-05-02 22:50:20 makeworld Ooh
2020-05-02 22:50:44 styan The lobsters poste helped me find the torture tests, and by extension a bug in my library (prematurly resetting the redirect counter). :-)
2020-05-02 22:51:17 styan Though, it did leave me even more curious about the story behind the infinite whitespace.
2020-05-02 22:51:45 pentangle I'm back from being passed out
2020-05-02 22:51:53 pentangle I'm happy to see all the activity here
2020-05-02 22:53:18 pentangle I don't have any development experience, but I made a small gopherhole on tilde.town with a hasty idea I had
2020-05-02 22:53:36 pentangle and I'm interested in everything to do with old web revival
2020-05-02 22:55:40 makeworld Did GUS just go down?
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2020-05-02 23:36:18 makeworld .
2020-05-02 23:36:51 makeworld Idk if my client cacked out or anything: Can anyone access GUS?
2020-05-02 23:36:58 makeworld I could early today but now I can't
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2020-05-02 23:54:32 makeworld Also carcosa.net
2020-05-03 00:06:11 makeworld Huh it seems I get "connection reset by peer" when accessing gemini://carcosa.net in Bombadillo
2020-05-03 00:06:16 makeworld But it works fine in Castor
2020-05-03 00:06:19 makeworld Any ideas/
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2020-05-03 00:57:54 makeworld .
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2020-05-03 01:20:30 makeworld Can anyone else confirm?
2020-05-03 01:36:30 styan I tried, and I can not confirm. It worked for me.
2020-05-03 01:38:11 makeworld Did you try in Bombadillo?
2020-05-03 01:38:25 styan Fresh from git.
2020-05-03 01:38:30 makeworld Weird...
2020-05-03 01:38:45 makeworld Both GUS and carcosa fail in Bombadillo but work in Castor for me
2020-05-03 01:39:07 makeworld What's your version?
2020-05-03 01:39:11 makeworld Mine is: Bombadillo r331.61ae285 - build 2020-05-02T12:59-0400
2020-05-03 01:39:34 styan Bombadillo 2.2.0 - build 2020-05-03T01:33+0000
2020-05-03 01:40:49 styan I guess the build is useless, since it is just when I typed gmake (after make(1) failed)
2020-05-03 01:41:26 makeworld Yeah
2020-05-03 01:41:46 makeworld My doesn't say 2.2.0 because I installed it from AUR, but the contents should be the same
2020-05-03 01:42:00 styan The last commit is a month ago.
2020-05-03 01:42:37 styan Strange.
2020-05-03 01:42:58 makeworld Yeah...
2020-05-03 01:43:25 makeworld carcosa says "read: connection reset by peer" and GUS is "Invalid response from server"
2020-05-03 01:43:26 styan Also, what is GUS?
2020-05-03 01:43:44 makeworld The gemini search engine. It's at gemini://gus.guru
2020-05-03 01:44:26 makeworld Pretty handy
2020-05-03 01:44:42 styan bombadillo loaded GUS for me, though it seems to like hanging sometimes.
2020-05-03 01:44:50 makeworld I'm stumped
2020-05-03 01:45:24 makeworld Just gonna reinstall and see
2020-05-03 01:45:54 styan You could check ~/.bombadillo.ini for any oddities
2020-05-03 01:49:46 makeworld https://pastebin.com/595LAkDc
2020-05-03 01:50:00 makeworld See any problems?
2020-05-03 01:50:54 makeworld Hmm I just moved the config file so Bombadillo wouldn't find it, and now gus loads
2020-05-03 01:51:08 makeworld Carcosa too
2020-05-03 01:53:03 styan The one it created for me is much different: https://bhh.sh/5su
2020-05-03 01:53:45 makeworld That does have some differences yeah, weird
2020-05-03 01:53:56 makeworld Although mine has lots of extra stuff because I edited it
2020-05-03 01:54:04 makeworld Added bookmarks, the client added certs, etc
2020-05-03 01:54:28 styan It did not add any certs to my ini file, weird.
2020-05-03 01:58:44 makeworld Hmm I figured it out
2020-05-03 01:58:49 makeworld I think
2020-05-03 01:59:17 makeworld I have a tls cert and key for the astrobotany site, and that's messing it up
2020-05-03 01:59:45 styan Ah
2020-05-03 01:59:49 makeworld Once I comment that out, I can visit gus and carcosa again
2020-05-03 02:00:00 makeworld But that shouldn't mess it up, idk
2020-05-03 02:01:30 makeworld I'll file a bug
2020-05-03 02:02:30 styan Well, I am glad that you were able to solve your mystery :-)
2020-05-03 02:03:18 makeworld Ha thanks
2020-05-03 02:19:11 makeworld I couldn't file a bug because I don't have tildeverse account :(
2020-05-03 02:19:29 makeworld Can someone in the channel let him now?
2020-05-03 02:19:46 makeworld Maybe sloum is here
2020-05-03 02:23:56 makeworld *let him know
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2020-05-03 03:57:54 login makeworld: you can make a tildeverse account ;)
2020-05-03 03:58:43 styan And then login to it? :-)
2020-05-03 03:59:13 styan (sorry, I could not resist)
2020-05-03 03:59:27 login well
2020-05-03 03:59:33 login do you have a tildeverse account styan
2020-05-03 04:00:11 styan I do, I just wanted to make a bad joke.
2020-05-03 04:00:32 ben https://tildeverse.org/members/
2020-05-03 04:00:50 ben i'm also happy to set up a tildegit account though
2020-05-03 04:01:08 ben the whitelist to tilde emails is just a spam prevention measure
2020-05-03 04:01:27 ben i was seeing dozens of spam accounts created every week when open signup was still on
2020-05-03 04:49:14 epoch .
2020-05-03 05:19:48 login ben, you spend so much time on here, hope you're getting free time to spend in other areas too (like travel and family)
2020-05-03 05:20:21 ben nowhere to travel nowadays
2020-05-03 05:20:40 ben and i'm back at my parents' for the time being
2020-05-03 05:21:38 login well then, maybe on some personal development
2020-05-03 05:21:55 login or saving money to invest in your future/retirement
2020-05-03 05:22:06 login tildeverse.org is quite expensive to run, going by 130 per month
2020-05-03 05:22:22 login that's more than the complete monthly salary of a lot of folks in other countries
2020-05-03 05:23:52 ben are you saying you don't want to see me around?
2020-05-03 05:24:14 ben my expenses have dropped a ton now that i'm not going out drinking
2020-05-03 05:55:10 login i'm saying i want you to be more sustainable
2020-05-03 05:55:34 login and to let go of all alcohol and fast food
2020-05-03 05:55:39 login to preserve and maximise your life
2020-05-03 05:57:01 login indirectly, what i'm saying is to weigh tildeverse against better financial wellbeing
2020-05-03 05:57:31 login tilde.town is being paid for monthly in full (other than the time cost of humans managing the servers)
2020-05-03 05:57:48 login but the other tildes are not getting the same love
2020-05-03 05:57:53 login especially envs.net
2020-05-03 05:58:52 login https://en.liberapay.com/envs.net/donate <-- it's one of the best tildeboxes out there
2020-05-03 05:59:19 login one of the beefiest, and with good design, and good urls (envs.net and envs.sh) and an admin who has renamed the "tilde" command to "envs" to fit with the theme
2020-05-03 05:59:34 login i don't any other tilde that uses the "tilde" script has customised it in this way
2020-05-03 05:59:45 login envs.net updates all the time, i think it supports gemini and gopher too
2020-05-03 06:00:45 login really, there's no reason envs.net shouldn't be getting as much as US$120 per month (same as tilde.town), other than that it not that popularised
2020-05-03 06:01:37 login and creme has been nothing but kind to me, even with my insistent questions and kind of intenseness
2020-05-03 06:02:37 login fast, responsive and caring admin + good urls + great design (both website and shell) + no lag in updates should be = $120 per month
2020-05-03 06:04:08 login and the saddest part is, the admin asks for 68.7 USD per month while just the domain name envs.sh costs 80 euros a year
2020-05-03 06:14:33 ben oh don't worry i'm sustainable
2020-05-03 06:14:52 ben i agree that creme has done a ton of work and definitely deserves it
2020-05-03 06:15:23 ben sounds like he's getting shafted on the .sh domain though
2020-05-03 06:15:33 ben i wouldn't pay more than $35 for those
2020-05-03 06:19:23 styan I initially read that as "80 euros a month" and befuddled for about ten minutes, going so far as to look up random domain name prices...
2020-05-03 06:20:33 styan I hope that you get a chuckle out of that, I did. :-)
2020-05-03 06:20:54 ben lol 80eur/month might be a thing if you have a "premium" domain
2020-05-03 06:21:06 ben but i'm not familiar with any registrars offering monthly pay plans
2020-05-03 06:22:35 styan Neither was I, but I did not think I read it wrong at the time
2020-05-03 06:23:11 styan I ran with that silly idea into the ethernet.
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2020-05-03 08:15:31 login ben: but you can be more sustainable ;)
2020-05-03 08:15:53 login you found a house with below market rent, not many people can do that
2020-05-03 08:16:18 login styan: sorry;)
2020-05-03 08:48:30 @tomasino I'm glad to hear vil is getting nice support on town. I'm in ben's camp. I don't need anything for my tildes. They're cheap
2020-05-03 10:31:26 login but they're not free
2020-05-03 10:31:55 login and money into tilde could instead grow in a stock market
2020-05-03 10:32:08 login especially now, when it is a good time to invest
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2020-05-03 10:37:11 @tomasino You think now is a good time to invest?
2020-05-03 10:38:29 @tomasino I've got a donation link in #cosmic if anyone feels generous
2020-05-03 10:38:59 @tomasino But my total out of pocket cost for that site is about $100/yr
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2020-05-03 10:48:00 login that's not investing, that's just donation
2020-05-03 10:48:19 login $100/year is more than netflix right?
2020-05-03 10:48:57 @tomasino Not sure. How much is Netflix
2020-05-03 10:50:39 login do you torrent?
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2020-05-03 10:51:22 login 1100 ISK per month, tomasino
2020-05-03 10:52:39 @tomasino Similar in cost then
2020-05-03 10:52:41 login Welcome back, Mlle/Mssr Clavus
2020-05-03 10:52:55 @tomasino I Plex
2020-05-03 10:53:08 login i love that icelandic krona has the same currency code as eve online
2020-05-03 10:53:23 login almost as if it was iceland that took over the world and made it beyond earth
2020-05-03 10:53:32 login tomasino: where do you get the videos to plex?
2020-05-03 10:53:37 @tomasino EVE is made here in Iceland
2020-05-03 10:53:49 login surely you are paying the copyright owners their royalties
2020-05-03 10:54:02 @tomasino Surely
2020-05-03 10:54:23 login oh yeah lol, i didn't know eve was made in iceland
2020-05-03 10:54:41 login you can buy each content on google play movies, and then claim the plex version is a personal copy
2020-05-03 10:54:44 login they can't get you for that
2020-05-03 10:54:46 login no mater what
2020-05-03 10:55:04 login if you're not, then you're committing a felony/breaking the law/committing a crime with potential jail time
2020-05-03 10:55:15 login in other words, the police can getcha
2020-05-03 10:55:26 @tomasino The police don't need an excuse to get you
2020-05-03 10:56:16 login because you're always at all times breaking one law or the other
2020-05-03 10:56:25 login and only selective enforcement is keeping you safe
2020-05-03 10:58:07 @tomasino It's not even about law. A cop can just shoot you. Then the police will put that cop on paid leave for a bit while they "look into it" and clear the cop who obviously feared for his life
2020-05-03 10:58:50 @tomasino And then there's the copyright itself
2020-05-03 10:59:18 login i mean, if there are no false negatives, there will be false positives
2020-05-03 10:59:26 login *other way around
2020-05-03 10:59:33 login if there are no false positives, there will be false negatives
2020-05-03 10:59:37 login and a single false negative is death
2020-05-03 10:59:56 login sounds like it's just the safest to shoot at any cop
2020-05-03 11:00:04 login and claim the cop would have shot you thinking you'd shoot them
2020-05-03 11:00:08 login so you shot them to protect yourself
2020-05-03 11:00:12 login seems reasonable
2020-05-03 11:01:06 login is it possible to buy an autorickshaw in iceland?
2020-05-03 11:01:12 login and use it in lieu of a car?
2020-05-03 11:01:20 @tomasino If you take the slightly less extreme view, that you need an independent armed force to watch over police activity in areas where they have a history of violence, then congrats! You just recreated the black Panthers
2020-05-03 11:03:38 @tomasino Not sure about the autorickshaw
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2020-05-03 12:54:12 login idk about the black panthers
2020-05-03 12:54:41 login i do know that Police departments have Internal Affairs
2020-05-03 12:54:59 login and in the US, state police sometimes got into trouble if the justice department felt reform was needed
2020-05-03 12:55:05 login so they got put on an improvement plan
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2020-05-03 16:27:19 makeworld Hello
2020-05-03 16:27:34 makeworld I'm back with logs now, thanks to thelounge
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2020-05-03 16:34:23 makeworld .
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2020-05-03 16:35:58 @tomasino yay
2020-05-03 16:37:36 makeworld Yeah, it's nice not to have to worry about missing chats and stuff. What do most people do? I don't have much experience with irc
2020-05-03 16:37:50 ben most people hang out in #meta
2020-05-03 16:37:56 ben but there are channels for all kinds of things
2020-05-03 16:38:09 ben you can check /list or it's on the web at https://tilde.chat/stats/
2020-05-03 16:38:26 makeworld Thanks! I meant what do most people do for logs though sorry
2020-05-03 16:38:35 ben i use weechat
2020-05-03 16:38:36 @tomasino weechat logs here
2020-05-03 16:38:47 ~tiwesdaeg I try to see how high I can get my #meta unread messages before I get bored
2020-05-03 16:38:55 ben i leave it running 24/7 and it logs automatically
2020-05-03 16:39:02 @tomasino i don't read back very far
2020-05-03 16:39:09 @tomasino just a few lines, or mentions
2020-05-03 16:39:14 ben i don't read scrollback unless someone mentions or asks me to
2020-05-03 16:39:25 ~tiwesdaeg which happens all the time ;P
2020-05-03 16:39:29 ben it's been really busy lately
2020-05-03 16:39:32 ~tiwesdaeg the most popular nick in the tildeverse
2020-05-03 16:39:51 @tomasino true
2020-05-03 16:39:56 makeworld Ah okay, cool
2020-05-03 16:40:23 ~tiwesdaeg I've been out planting tomatoes and stuff and haven't been paying attention to irc as much the past few days
2020-05-03 16:40:38 ben nice
2020-05-03 16:40:52 ~tiwesdaeg we've been slackers this year
2020-05-03 16:41:17 ~tiwesdaeg I'm keeping some volunteer squash/melons to help fill things in
2020-05-03 16:41:27 ~tiwesdaeg they came out of the compost pile, so surprise!
2020-05-03 16:59:59 makeworld The latest castor won't even start for me :(
2020-05-03 17:00:13 makeworld I'm compiling from the latest release to see how that is
2020-05-03 17:00:35 makeworld Can't complain too much about new software for a new protocol lol
2020-05-03 17:05:22 makeworld It works very well!
2020-05-03 17:06:24 makeworld It doesn't appear to verify certs though
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2020-05-03 17:19:52 makeworld2 Does anyone know how to go to the second page of GUS?
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2020-05-03 18:15:05 DominikD Howdy! I'm working on a cross-platform graphical gemini client. It's still an early POC but I already have a lot of, uhm, opinions about the spec. Should I discuss stuff here first or simply write up on the list?
2020-05-03 18:15:57 makeworld2 Probably the list?
2020-05-03 18:16:16 DominikD Mkay
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2020-05-03 18:21:59 makeworld2 tomasino: Can you kick makeworld? I think something messed up with my client
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2020-05-03 18:25:39 makeworld Thanks
2020-05-03 18:28:49 makeworld I've been thinking about making a wget-like tool for gemini as my first project
2020-05-03 18:29:22 makeworld Also having some sort of comment CGI script would be cool, that could integrate with blog posts
2020-05-03 18:43:17 makeworld Does anyone have experience with https://git.sr.ht/~yotam/go-gemini/ ?
2020-05-03 18:44:29 @tomasino i do not!
2020-05-03 18:44:30 @tomasino :)
2020-05-03 18:49:48 makeworld Fair enough
2020-05-03 18:50:14 makeworld I mean the protocol seems to be simple enough that you could easily reimplement it if needed
2020-05-03 18:57:21 DominikD You should. You'll learn a lot about the protocol and be able to contribute to the spec :)
2020-05-03 19:05:45 DominikD ta-ta!
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2020-05-03 19:09:31 makeworld Android client :o
2020-05-03 19:09:32 makeworld https://framagit.org/waweic/gemini-client
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2020-05-03 20:09:47 jan6 hmm, I wonder how popular would gemini have to be, for curl to have a gemini protocol support, like it has a gopher support...(well, if it can be considered "support"...but it handles gopher:// urls)
2020-05-03 20:11:16 @tomasino if you can do a TLS handshake i guess you could curl now
2020-05-03 20:11:34 @tomasino no idea how that works
2020-05-03 20:40:36 jan6 probably not that hard to patch in, question is if it'd be accepted upstream ;P
2020-05-03 20:42:17 @tomasino Curl maintainer is on fedi. @bagder@mastodon.social
2020-05-03 20:42:22 @tomasino Ask away
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2020-05-03 21:23:20 makeworld That'd be handy for sure
2020-05-03 21:23:47 makeworld Are there any unix tools that can see the raw protocol? I was messing around but couldn't get stuff to work
2020-05-03 22:15:24 styan makeworld: I have been using nc(1) to manually type in server responses, if that is type of thing that you mean. (Though, OpenBSD nc(1) *might* be the only one that supports being a TLS server)
2020-05-03 22:33:05 styan Huh, I was wrong. Only NetBSD and OpenBSD nc(1) support TLS at all (according to the man-pages), and both support being a server.
2020-05-03 22:36:02 styan Oh, nevermind, NetBSD has OpenBSD's nc(1) and its man-page but `ifndef's out they TLS sections because that part uses libtls from LibreSSL, which is not in the NetBSD base.
2020-05-03 22:40:38 makeworld Oh I didn't realize it supported it
2020-05-03 22:40:48 makeworld I have OpenBSD installed
2020-05-03 22:41:01 makeworld OpenBSD netcat, that is
2020-05-03 22:41:43 makeworld The manpage I have doesn't mention TLS though...
2020-05-03 22:42:24 makeworld Are you sure you're using the OpenBSD one?
2020-05-03 22:42:24 makeworld https://superuser.com/questions/346958/can-the-telnet-or-netcat-clients-communicate-over-ssl
2020-05-03 22:42:50 styan as a Gemini client `nc -c -T noverify localhost 1965'
2020-05-03 22:43:41 styan as a Gemini server `nc -cl -K file.key -C file.crt localhost 1965'
2020-05-03 22:43:58 styan The `-c' is for TLS
2020-05-03 22:47:39 styan Yes, I am sure it is the OpenBSD one on an OpenBSD system (tilde.black)
2020-05-03 22:48:11 styan https://man.openbsd.org/nc
2020-05-03 23:02:02 styan Ah, the answer you found is older than TLS support in OpenBSD's nc(1). 2011 vs 2015.
2020-05-03 23:17:33 makeworld Huh idk what's up with mine
2020-05-03 23:17:49 makeworld The manpage says 2018, but the -c option fails
2020-05-03 23:19:14 makeworld I guess my version is old
2020-05-03 23:22:24 makeworld I had success using gnutls-cli instead
2020-05-03 23:22:41 @tomasino Yay for tilde.black helping
2020-05-03 23:30:29 makeworld Anyone here know yotam?
2020-05-03 23:37:32 @tomasino not i
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2020-05-04 03:37:04 makeworld I made a gemini downloader in Go! Just finished testing it
2020-05-04 03:37:16 makeworld I'll upload tomorrow, it's late over here
2020-05-04 03:38:11 makeworld It works like wget, so you can download files in the command line
2020-05-04 03:42:52 styan Cool, I am curious to see how complex that turned out to be in Go.
2020-05-04 03:46:14 makeworld It was pretty easy, but definitely good for a beginner like me
2020-05-04 03:46:45 makeworld I used a gemini library for the requests though, so I didn't have to worry about too much
2020-05-04 03:47:30 styan I did pretty much the same thing when I came across Gemini last week or so, but in C, so I mostly wanted to quantify how much extra stuff using C caused. :-)
2020-05-04 03:51:57 makeworld Oh nice, is the code up anywhere?
2020-05-04 03:53:32 styan I have the C library that evolved out of that on my tildagit, but I still have the old version here.
2020-05-04 03:59:57 styan Here: https://bhh.sh/5sv
2020-05-04 04:00:39 styan It makes a few assumptions that I later found to be incorrect, but that was my first attempt at Gemini, more or less.
2020-05-04 04:07:03 makeworld Nice, thanks
2020-05-04 04:07:09 makeworld Gn!
2020-05-04 04:07:55 styan Rest well.
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2020-05-04 08:45:55 pentangle I'm really liking the experience with bombadillo, I think I might make some suggestions on the git
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2020-05-04 14:33:20 ~tiwesdaeg bombadillo is my default console browser for gopher and gemini
2020-05-04 14:35:43 jeffpc it is rather weird to hear people talk about gopher non-sarcastically :)
2020-05-04 14:36:04 jeffpc as many have already stated, I'm intrigued by gemini
2020-05-04 14:42:03 login I'm okay with gopher and gemini as long as it remains stateless
2020-05-04 14:44:30 ⚡ tomasino hearts gopher
2020-05-04 14:44:39 @tomasino and gemini is pretty cool
2020-05-04 14:44:51 @tomasino i hope it continues to gain momentum
2020-05-04 14:45:35 ⚡ jeffpc considered expanding his blogging engine to spit out gopher, but hasn't exactly found gopher type chars great
2020-05-04 14:45:42 jeffpc gemini will hopefully change that :)
2020-05-04 14:45:53 makeworld Yeah, that's one of the goals I think
2020-05-04 14:45:58 jeffpc that is, I know it is better already
2020-05-04 14:46:04 makeworld Cause it uses mime-types instead
2020-05-04 14:46:16 jeffpc and URLs
2020-05-04 14:47:40 login how is the internationalisation of gemini?
2020-05-04 14:47:45 login does it work with utf8?
2020-05-04 14:48:03 makeworld Yes
2020-05-04 14:48:04 @tomasino yep
2020-05-04 14:48:23 makeworld That's the default encoding, but other charsets can be specified in the mime type
2020-05-04 14:51:50 jeffpc hmm.... mime times
2020-05-04 14:51:54 jeffpc types
2020-05-04 14:52:16 jeffpc I wonder what sort of creative multipart abuse one could come up with
2020-05-04 14:54:07 jeffpc message/partial and message/external-body could be fun
2020-05-04 14:55:34 jeffpc yes! message/external-body;access-type=ftp
2020-05-04 14:55:51 login i didn't know there was such athing as message/external-body
2020-05-04 14:56:47 jeffpc yeah, MIME is actually *really* complex
2020-05-04 15:04:16 login i mean, message/externalbody is a link right?
2020-05-04 15:04:27 jeffpc essentially, yes
2020-05-04 15:04:42 jeffpc but a MIME level one
2020-05-04 15:05:06 login so mime mimes every protocl?
2020-05-04 15:05:23 jeffpc and at least the original RFC (2046) doesn't like a generic URI support - just a handful of access methods
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2020-05-04 15:34:22 ℹ Topic for #gemini is "Gemini (protocol) enthusiasts - gopher://zaibatsu.circumlunar.space:70/1/~solderpunk/gemini"
2020-05-04 15:34:22 ℹ Topic set by tomasino (~tomasino@gopher.black) on Thu, 05 Sep 2019 14:04:13
2020-05-04 15:34:22 ℹ Channel #gemini: 32 nicks (1 op, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 31 normals)
2020-05-04 15:34:23 makeworld styan: There's my downloader
2020-05-04 15:35:04 ℹ Channel created on Sat, 31 Aug 2019 22:41:57
2020-05-04 15:44:07 makeworld Building binaries now, I'll make a release once I have them. I was thinking of announcing this on the mailing list?
2020-05-04 15:56:09 julienxx The most simple gemini client `echo gemini://konpeito.media/index-spicy.gmi | openssl s_client -crlf -ign_eof -quiet -connect konpeito.media:1965` :D
2020-05-04 16:00:46 makeworld Perfect
2020-05-04 16:01:07 makeworld Alright, I have binaries up now, I'd be happy if anyone wants to try it out!
2020-05-04 16:01:17 makeworld Is it worth sending on the mailing list?
2020-05-04 16:07:16 julienxx please do
2020-05-04 16:07:52 makeworld :)
2020-05-04 16:08:02 makeworld I will then, thanks
2020-05-04 16:24:40 makeworld Done
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2020-05-04 18:30:23 tomasino well done
2020-05-04 18:37:15 makeworld Thanks! It was fun
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2020-05-04 21:48:11 styan You were not kidding about building binaries makeworld, there are quite a lot of targets.
2020-05-04 21:48:44 makeworld Haha I know, it felt a bit excessive, especially for a project that might have some rapid development
2020-05-04 21:48:57 makeworld I just used a script that goes through all the possible Go targets
2020-05-04 21:49:37 styan It is funny seeing so many architectures, then openbsd-amd64 :-)
2020-05-04 21:50:50 styan I wonder what a strict syscall-verification will do to the ability to cross-compile to OpenBSD?
2020-05-04 21:54:52 makeworld What do you mean?
2020-05-04 21:55:10 styan https://github.com/golang/go/issues/36435
2020-05-04 21:56:11 styan It does not matter for static binaries though, I just incorrectly remembered that they wanted it to.
2020-05-04 21:59:17 makeworld Huh, weird
2020-05-04 21:59:54 makeworld Are you trying it out now?
2020-05-04 22:01:53 styan On *BSD, and Illumos, the stable API is libc, so OpenBSD can make the assumption that things should be making syscalls though libc. If that helps give context.
2020-05-04 22:02:23 makeworld Yeah that what the issue seemed to say
2020-05-04 22:02:34 makeworld But it looks like it should be okay for Go, for now anyway
2020-05-04 22:04:54 styan As I said, I mistakenly remembered something about static binaries (which is what your release is), but it is dynamic binaries that have extra-permissions because Go likes making direct syscalls, so it does not appear to affect cross-compilation.
2020-05-04 22:08:09 styan I tried your program and it works, though I managed to confuse myself by assuming it would print to the standard-output, even though I just read the code a few minutes ago :-)
2020-05-04 22:09:06 styan FreeBSD and OpenBSD
2020-05-04 22:11:05 styan Also, your Github username is entertaining. It made me think of 'The One True Awk'.
2020-05-04 22:15:11 styan The following fails strangely: `gemget --insecure -o- //tilde.black'
2020-05-04 22:37:08 makeworld Hey, glad it works!
2020-05-04 22:37:18 styan The progress-bar seems to clobber the output whine writing to the standard-output, maybe you should make that imply `-q'?
2020-05-04 22:37:26 makeworld Hmm one sec
2020-05-04 22:37:40 styan s/whine/while/
2020-05-04 22:37:50 makeworld Yeah I'll do that
2020-05-04 22:38:04 makeworld Thanks
2020-05-04 22:38:40 styan No problem :-)
2020-05-04 22:40:23 makeworld As for the tilde.black thing, that has to do with URL parsing
2020-05-04 22:41:21 makeworld It assumes your url either starts with "gemini://" or doesn't have any scheme info at all, and just starts with the domain
2020-05-04 22:42:57 styan tilde.black's gemini server actually responds to "//tilde.black" but not "tilde.black", which is why I tried it
2020-05-04 22:45:39 styan If you want to try my current client thing (*NIX with LibreSSL only), it is here: https://tildegit.org/styan/libgeminiclient
2020-05-04 22:46:19 makeworld They shouldn't respond to either according to spec I thought
2020-05-04 22:46:27 makeworld Only an absolute gemini URL
2020-05-04 22:46:51 makeworld In any case, my tool tries to be smart, and adds the scheme for you, as well trailing slashes on domains, etc
2020-05-04 22:46:52 styan The spec says that if the scheme is left out it is implied to be gemini:
2020-05-04 22:47:01 makeworld Ah okay
2020-05-04 22:47:40 styan But due to how URLs work, the host-name is only suppose to follow a "//" regardless.
2020-05-04 22:47:51 makeworld I don't do much C but the client looks cool! You should submit it to the mailing list, or at least send it to solderpunk so it shows up on the Software page
2020-05-04 22:48:29 makeworld What's an example URL that caused the progress bar to appear for you?
2020-05-04 22:49:08 styan I tried downloading an mp3 from gemini://konpeito.media/
2020-05-04 22:49:29 makeworld And output to stdout?
2020-05-04 22:49:39 styan And pipe to a file
2020-05-04 22:49:43 makeworld Ah yeah
2020-05-04 22:49:50 makeworld Good catch
2020-05-04 22:50:18 styan Oh, maybe you can do something like isatty(3)?
2020-05-04 22:52:25 makeworld Hmm maybe, but honestly I think it's fine to just make it quiet
2020-05-04 22:52:38 makeworld It's usually what you want anyway
2020-05-04 22:53:34 makeworld If you don't have any more suggestions I'll cut a new release, v1.0.1 :D
2020-05-04 22:53:48 styan Add non-long options for things?
2020-05-04 22:54:26 styan That one is purly an irrational dislike of long-options on my part :-)
2020-05-04 22:55:04 makeworld Sure!
2020-05-04 22:55:18 makeworld Something I'm unsure about is the follow option
2020-05-04 22:55:57 makeworld Maybe I should change it to --nofollow or something, because right now it's set to true by default, which leads to more awkward things like --follow=false
2020-05-04 22:56:14 makeworld But I definitely want to keep following redirects as the default
2020-05-04 22:56:28 styan I eventually put mine as `-r maximum-redirects'
2020-05-04 22:56:59 styan I do not know if the library you are using supports that though.
2020-05-04 22:57:06 makeworld With a default number of 5 maybe?
2020-05-04 22:57:11 makeworld Yeah it should
2020-05-04 22:57:50 styan Then you can turn it off by setting it to 0.
2020-05-04 22:58:54 makeworld Yeah
2020-05-04 23:07:44 makeworld Alright, I'll commit and release that I think
2020-05-04 23:22:25 styan Wow, I just tried my code in a Linux VM and it did not go well.
2020-05-04 23:23:46 makeworld Your client?
2020-05-04 23:24:24 styan Yeah, my client library and example.
2020-05-04 23:28:37 styan There are weird `_XOPEN_SOURCE' and `_DEFAULT_SOURCE' defines required, `pkg-config --cflags' does not give the include directory I thought it would, and apperently the compiler actually cares about the order of `-l' arguments.
2020-05-04 23:36:29 makeworld Huh
2020-05-04 23:37:03 makeworld You developed it on OpenBSD, that's why it's different?
2020-05-04 23:39:23 styan Mostly OpenBSD, a tiny bit FreeBSD.
2020-05-04 23:48:07 makeworld Cool, I've never really used those
2020-05-05 00:22:06 styan It builds and runs on Linux now, if you can find a way to install LibreSSL.
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2020-05-05 06:50:39 jan hi. i have a question about the spec, section 1.3.5.3.2 Link lines
2020-05-05 06:51:04 jan the examples list "=>gemini://example.org/bar Yet another example link at the same host" as a valid link line
2020-05-05 06:51:19 jan but the syntax says "
2020-05-05 06:51:22 jan =>[<whitespace>]<URL>[<whitespace><USER-FRIENDLY LINK NAME>]<CR><LF>
2020-05-05 06:51:49 jan where whitespace i a non-zero number of whitespace characters
2020-05-05 06:52:10 jan so "=>gemini..." should not be valid
2020-05-05 06:52:21 jan but "=> gemini" is
2020-05-05 06:53:00 styan Square brackets normally mean that something is optional, so the whitespace is probably optional.
2020-05-05 06:53:21 jan doh. of course
2020-05-05 06:53:35 jan thanks, styan
2020-05-05 06:54:22 styan No problem.
2020-05-05 07:12:46 styan Huh, `gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/' accepts UNIX line-endings for everything, no carriage-returns needed (or served).
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2020-05-05 07:13:50 styan I guess all the "<CR>" characters are defacto optional.
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2020-05-05 10:17:02 tomasino When the spec started it was gopher style
2020-05-05 10:17:16 tomasino Then we talked and the list said that was probably unnecessary
2020-05-05 10:17:31 tomasino But the spec didn't go back and uniformly correct it
2020-05-05 10:18:00 tomasino So basically like endings should work Unix style or windows style
2020-05-05 15:45:51 ℹ Mode #gemini [+qo tiwesdaeg tiwesdaeg] by ChanServ
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2020-05-05 17:20:13 Ekkie qsxdrew123
2020-05-05 17:20:32 Ekkie oh cool my screen lock *wasnt* on
2020-05-05 17:52:15 jan gemini-support in ncgopher i coming along nicely: https://jan.bio/gemini.png
2020-05-05 17:53:55 jan so now i wish that i'd come up with a better name than ncgopher :-)
2020-05-05 17:54:08 tomasino change it?
2020-05-05 17:54:12 tomasino ncg?
2020-05-05 17:55:12 jan that would save some bits
2020-05-05 17:55:26 tomasino well there ya go!
2020-05-05 17:55:27 tomasino :D
2020-05-05 17:55:50 tomasino and it's extensible! you can support any protocol beginning with a "g"
2020-05-05 17:56:04 jan like ginger
2020-05-05 17:57:16 jan and gelnet
2020-05-05 17:58:00 jan maybe I should use a wildcard instead.
2020-05-05 17:58:18 jan nc* => ncstar
2020-05-05 17:58:52 jan and what when I implement several frontends, not just ncurses?
2020-05-05 17:59:31 jan like, doublestar
2020-05-05 18:00:05 tomasino ** would be an excellent utility
2020-05-05 18:00:12 tomasino we need more things that need escaped to be executed
2020-05-05 18:01:53 jan rm ** to uninstall
2020-05-05 18:06:09 tomasino exactly!
2020-05-05 18:28:50 jeffpc that wouldn't work if you aren't in the right directory
2020-05-05 18:28:59 jeffpc therefore I propose: rm /bin/** /usr/bin/** **
2020-05-05 18:29:10 jeffpc maybe even /usr/local/bin/** ;)
2020-05-05 18:42:59 tomasino ahh, true
2020-05-05 18:43:00 tomasino very important
2020-05-05 19:53:31 ℹ Mode #gemini [+o julienxx] by ChanServ
2020-05-05 19:54:24 ~tiwesdaeg it seems tomasino hasn't registered his nick lately
2020-05-05 19:54:31 ~tiwesdaeg also, it's getting crowded in here
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2020-05-05 20:02:18 tomasino I haven't?
2020-05-05 20:04:10 ~tiwesdaeg I'm pretty sure I added you to aop
2020-05-05 20:05:02 ~tiwesdaeg I got booted off the server just recently and had identify again
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2020-05-05 21:10:29 tomasino oh, i was an op last time, yeah
2020-05-05 21:10:36 tomasino but i use sasl here
2020-05-05 21:10:46 ℹ Mode #gemini [+o tomasino] by ChanServ
2020-05-05 21:11:02 @tomasino well, something was screwy
2020-05-05 21:11:03 @tomasino hah
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2020-05-06 15:05:06 ~tiwesdaeg solderpunk's gemini server list is growing
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2020-05-06 20:27:17 wangofett nice :D
2020-05-06 20:28:20 @tomasino :D
2020-05-06 20:28:22 @tomasino yay gemini!
2020-05-06 23:05:06 makeworld Ooh yeah
2020-05-06 23:05:12 makeworld I should get mine up and running
2020-05-06 23:07:09 makeworld gemini://vi.rs is one of the new ones, looks cool
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2020-05-07 13:47:54 m68k ooh yeah wow 3 new servers :)
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2020-05-07 17:59:00 makeworld I was just thinking about how Bombadillo and all Gemini clients should track cert expiry along with the cert hash
2020-05-07 17:59:09 makeworld And then the issue happened to me
2020-05-07 17:59:32 makeworld Just know I couldn't access gemini.circumlunar.space, because the cert had been updated and Bombadillo had the old hash
2020-05-07 17:59:44 makeworld So I had to manually go in and delete the hash
2020-05-07 18:00:22 makeworld "If the certificate is not the
2020-05-07 18:00:22 makeworld one previously received, but the previous certificate's expiry date
2020-05-07 18:00:22 makeworld has not passed, the user is shown a warning, analogous to the one web
2020-05-07 18:00:22 makeworld browser users are shown when receiving a certificate without a
2020-05-07 18:00:22 makeworld signature chain leading to a trusted CA."
2020-05-07 18:00:40 makeworld Whoops, meant to send that as one message
2020-05-07 18:00:46 makeworld But that's from the spec
2020-05-07 18:05:25 makeworld I'll send an email to sloum I guess, and report the bug
2020-05-07 20:25:29 wangofett Is there a reference Gemini server? Or others? The only thing I found was the one that lets you serve both gemini & gopher, but I looked at that a bit and it definitely wasn't what I was after :P
2020-05-07 21:09:10 makeworld wangofett: gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/software/ has a big list of servers
2020-05-07 21:18:38 ℹ tomasino has changed topic for #gemini from "Gemini (protocol) enthusiasts - gopher://zaibatsu.circumlunar.space:70/1/~solderpunk/gemini" to "Gemini (protocol) enthusiasts - gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/"
2020-05-07 21:18:56 @tomasino now that the project home is hosted on the actual protocol. that was long overdue
2020-05-07 23:35:36 lucidiot has quit (The TLS connection was non-properly terminated.)
2020-05-08 05:48:58 jan hah. finally got a gemini server up and running at gemini://jan.bio/ . now comes the hard part: content :)
2020-05-08 08:26:51 login that's an amazing URL, jan
2020-05-08 08:27:01 login how does one get a .bio? that seems kinda perfect for humans
2020-05-08 08:44:53 jan pluss, i'm interested in biology / entomology
2020-05-08 08:45:42 jan that's the shortest url I could find. got it via my local registrar at https://domene.shop/
2020-05-08 09:02:45 login how local is that registrar?
2020-05-08 09:33:49 jan not sure if they have an english page. i've only seen the norwegian site
2020-05-08 09:45:50 jan godaddy.com has also .bio-domains. not sure if this is the best registrar though
2020-05-08 09:46:04 ▬▬▶ lucidiot has joined #gemini
2020-05-08 09:47:23 jan login: namecheap.com sells these as well
2020-05-08 09:47:30 login i see
2020-05-08 12:49:54 lucidiot has quit (Client exited)
2020-05-08 12:52:38 ~tiwesdaeg login: https://tld-list.com/
2020-05-08 12:52:54 ~tiwesdaeg a great way to search tlds and registrars
2020-05-08 12:53:12 ~tiwesdaeg you can even search by tld character length
2020-05-08 13:31:40 login oh, i might do the tld character length search
2020-05-08 13:42:11 ~tiwesdaeg there are a bunch of two character tlds that are fairly inexpensive
2020-05-08 13:44:49 @tomasino .is are roughly $50/year
2020-05-08 13:51:21 login that's not inexpensive
2020-05-08 13:51:33 login what about .nz or .rs?
2020-05-08 13:51:46 ~tiwesdaeg .nz is 15 I think for the cheapest
2020-05-08 13:51:49 login btw, how did acdw get rw.rs? seems like a super expensive domain name
2020-05-08 13:52:26 ~tiwesdaeg login: find two character you want for a domain, set the tld to two characters and let her rip
2020-05-08 13:52:43 ~tiwesdaeg there are still tons of options out there
2020-05-08 13:52:51 login none are cheap
2020-05-08 13:53:10 ~tiwesdaeg do you have a specific two letters?
2020-05-08 13:53:10 @tomasino i have ino.is
2020-05-08 13:53:12 @tomasino that's my shortest
2020-05-08 13:53:20 @tomasino i use it as a private shortlink generator
2020-05-08 13:53:24 @tomasino https://ino.is/stutter
2020-05-08 13:53:48 ~tiwesdaeg I tried tt the other day and found some under 15 a year
2020-05-08 13:54:07 @tomasino nice, not just year 1?
2020-05-08 13:54:43 ~tiwesdaeg I think tt.nz was open
2020-05-08 13:55:45 ~tiwesdaeg tt.vg is 8 bucks continuously
2020-05-08 13:59:28 login that one's nice
2020-05-08 14:00:26 ~tiwesdaeg looks like the tld-list .vg isn't setup right
2020-05-08 14:00:39 @tomasino vg!
2020-05-08 14:00:44 ~tiwesdaeg I went to the registrar they listed and it wasn't available
2020-05-08 14:04:27 login ah
2020-05-08 14:05:56 ~tiwesdaeg ls.fi and ls.si are available at https://www.istanco.com/
2020-05-08 14:06:03 ~tiwesdaeg both under 20
2020-05-08 14:08:25 ~tiwesdaeg or not
2020-05-08 14:08:31 ~tiwesdaeg man these registrars are all broken
2020-05-08 14:12:57 ~tiwesdaeg now I want to get a two letter domain just to do it
2020-05-08 14:15:55 @tomasino that's the slippery slope
2020-05-08 14:16:00 @tomasino you'll be ben before you know it
2020-05-08 14:16:06 @tomasino how many domains are you squatting on now ben?
2020-05-08 14:16:21 ben i think i'm back below 30
2020-05-08 14:16:25 ben i let a couple expire
2020-05-08 14:16:32 @tomasino oh nice!
2020-05-08 14:17:23 ~tiwesdaeg I keep letting one expire when I get a new one
2020-05-08 14:17:45 ben that's also reasonable
2020-05-08 14:17:59 @tomasino i am gonna let some of mine expire
2020-05-08 14:18:03 @tomasino gopher.studio for instance
2020-05-08 14:19:57 ~tiwesdaeg I only have 5 right now
2020-05-08 14:20:02 ~tiwesdaeg which my wife would say is too many
2020-05-08 14:20:45 ben lol
2020-05-08 14:22:20 ~tiwesdaeg do I really need a short domain? definitely not
2020-05-08 14:22:38 ben heh
2020-05-08 14:22:54 ben i use bhh.sh for all kinds of things
2020-05-08 14:23:19 ben short names for all my ipv4 addrs, <hostname>.bhh.sh etc
2020-05-08 14:25:29 @tomasino https://status.ino.is/
2020-05-08 14:25:37 @tomasino otherwise just ino.is/shortcode
2020-05-08 14:25:49 ~tiwesdaeg har har
2020-05-08 14:25:50 @tomasino tomasino.is is mostly file hosting and rando nonsense
2020-05-08 14:26:09 ~tiwesdaeg now I get the ino.is
2020-05-08 14:26:19 ben woah what status page thing is that
2020-05-08 14:26:24 @tomasino updown.io
2020-05-08 14:26:32 ben you should make a tomas.ino.is subdomain
2020-05-08 14:26:37 @tomasino i probably should
2020-05-08 14:26:54 @tomasino updown.io is great
2020-05-08 14:27:07 ben do u pay for it?
2020-05-08 14:27:11 @tomasino i've got 96 more months of monitoring before i use up all the free credits
2020-05-08 14:27:17 @tomasino then it's like $5 for the next 96 months
2020-05-08 14:27:27 ben huh not bad
2020-05-08 14:27:38 @tomasino you can enable a bucnh of shit and up the time checking and get far shorter times
2020-05-08 14:27:50 @tomasino i use 10 min checks on work sites
2020-05-08 14:28:04 @tomasino i only share my public stuff on the status page, but i have a login view that shows the other ones
2020-05-08 14:29:04 ben nice
2020-05-08 14:29:15 ben i do need better monitoring
2020-05-08 14:29:40 @tomasino well, i haven't tried a lot of options, but i can recommend them. And it's free to try out
2020-05-08 14:29:46 @tomasino oh, i may have a referal link
2020-05-08 14:29:47 @tomasino lemme see
2020-05-08 14:29:59 ben i don't have time to do it now, but i will keep it in mind
2020-05-08 14:31:02 @tomasino for the room: https://updown.io/r/mCUEB
2020-05-08 14:31:09 @tomasino use that and you'll get 100k extra free credits
2020-05-08 14:31:22 @tomasino and if you ever do need to spend the $5 to renew, I also get 100k free credits
2020-05-08 14:33:12 ~tiwesdaeg does this site basically ping yours at specified intervals and keep track of the response?
2020-05-08 14:35:02 @tomasino yep
2020-05-08 14:35:25 @tomasino https://updown.io/myjs
2020-05-08 14:35:29 @tomasino here's the detail page on cosmic
2020-05-08 14:35:51 @tomasino you can configure which endpoints it should ping from, set timeout thresholds, do ipv6 if you want. there's some options
2020-05-08 14:36:34 ~tiwesdaeg what interval are you using?
2020-05-08 14:37:46 @tomasino 1hour on personal sites, 10min on professional ones
2020-05-08 14:38:18 @tomasino i used to have all my personal sites up, but decided to just do one per VM instead
2020-05-08 14:38:33 @tomasino if cosmic is up, then tomasino.org is probably up too. no reason to waste credits
2020-05-08 14:38:46 @tomasino well, wait, bad example. those are on diferent vms
2020-05-08 14:38:49 @tomasino you know what i mean
2020-05-08 14:39:00 ~tiwesdaeg I get it
2020-05-08 14:39:11 ~tiwesdaeg I have no professional sites ;P
2020-05-08 14:39:19 @tomasino even easier!
2020-05-08 14:39:40 ~tiwesdaeg I don't know why I never got in to IT for work
2020-05-08 14:40:09 ~tiwesdaeg I swear I was only doing 4 years in the military then going back to college
2020-05-08 14:40:18 @tomasino eh, there's always tomorrow
2020-05-08 14:40:22 @tomasino you retire soon, right?
2020-05-08 14:40:28 @tomasino ready for career #2?
2020-05-08 14:40:32 ~tiwesdaeg 20 years later, I'm still chugging along
2020-05-08 14:40:49 ~tiwesdaeg I don't want a real career when I get out
2020-05-08 14:41:01 @tomasino well, you can have a fake one!
2020-05-08 14:41:05 @tomasino get into woodworking or something
2020-05-08 14:41:24 ~tiwesdaeg I've just been working away on investments so I can float myself to retirement when I tap in to more funds
2020-05-08 14:41:25 @tomasino ooh, or let your retirement pay for a small self-sufficient farm
2020-05-08 14:41:40 @tomasino go off grid, enjoy stuffs
2020-05-08 14:41:44 @tomasino that'd be great
2020-05-08 14:41:57 @tomasino hit one of the big counties in AK without property taxes
2020-05-08 14:42:04 ~tiwesdaeg I've thought about luthiery
2020-05-08 14:42:21 @tomasino that would be cool too
2020-05-08 14:42:23 ~tiwesdaeg make some ukuleles or something
2020-05-08 14:42:24 @tomasino probably not AK then
2020-05-08 14:42:27 ~tiwesdaeg haha
2020-05-08 14:42:42 ~tiwesdaeg I do miss alaska
2020-05-08 14:42:56 ~tiwesdaeg not the cheapest place to live
2020-05-08 14:42:57 @tomasino it's my fav state
2020-05-08 14:43:17 ~tiwesdaeg there's like a 5% chance I can transfer to Juneau next year
2020-05-08 14:43:17 @tomasino well, it would get cheaper for you if you get yourself a nice greenhouse and plant your own food
2020-05-08 14:43:40 ~tiwesdaeg my tomatoes are in the ground currently
2020-05-08 14:44:31 @tomasino to your earlier question, not just a ping on updown,io. itdoes the full http load and tells you time for various parts of the handshake. There is an ICMP option and a TCP one too, though
2020-05-08 14:44:58 ~tiwesdaeg how much does it cost when credits run out?
2020-05-08 14:45:28 @tomasino +200,000
2020-05-08 14:45:28 @tomasino 5 €
2020-05-08 14:45:42 @tomasino 200,000 credits for 5 euro
2020-05-08 14:45:52 @tomasino so, years and years and years for 5
2020-05-08 14:46:15 ~tiwesdaeg I guess it must make them money
2020-05-08 14:50:59 @tomasino if you are an individual you don't add much load
2020-05-08 14:51:15 @tomasino but if you are a company with lots of properties then that actually earns them a fair clip
2020-05-08 14:51:26 @tomasino https://github.com/jamestomasino/updown-status-page
2020-05-08 14:51:31 @tomasino this is what runs my status page, via netlify
2020-05-08 14:54:31 @tomasino clone the repo, customise page_config.json with your updown.io info, and click the big button in the readme to deploy it on netlify
2020-05-08 14:54:41 @tomasino add a cname for a custom domain on netlify and tada!
2020-05-08 14:55:00 @tomasino okay, on that note, gonna put on pants and go buy booze
2020-05-08 14:55:08 @tomasino ciao!
2020-05-08 15:52:42 ~tiwesdaeg I'm still looking at short domains
2020-05-08 16:16:45 ben hm it's not pulling my checks
2020-05-08 16:18:44 ben tomasino: did you see this option? https://updown.io/public-status
2020-05-08 16:20:04 ben ah now it works
2020-05-08 16:24:46 @tomasino Oh yes
2020-05-08 16:24:52 @tomasino Forgot that part
2020-05-08 16:26:21 ben all set now
2020-05-08 16:41:25 jan whooaa. i want a shorter domain as well!
2020-05-08 16:46:20 ben i have bhh.sh and ttm.sh
2020-05-08 16:46:25 ben nice n short
2020-05-08 16:48:37 jan js.im is free
2020-05-08 16:48:45 jan not free, but available
2020-05-08 17:04:12 @tomasino do it!
2020-05-08 17:04:17 @tomasino j.an not avail?
2020-05-08 17:05:03 @tomasino https://status.bhh.sh/ - quite sexy ben
2020-05-08 17:05:18 @tomasino how long will it stay free for you?
2020-05-08 17:07:14 jan j.an is not available
2020-05-08 17:08:23 @tomasino booo
2020-05-08 17:09:13 jan heh. j.me is just $301643.00 / year
2020-05-08 17:10:13 @tomasino hahaha
2020-05-08 17:11:12 jan but then, renewal is just 12$ per year ;-)
2020-05-08 17:14:41 login hey, might be worth buying j.me
2020-05-08 17:15:00 login who knows if someone comes up with a cool service and wants a shortlink, so offers more than 301643k for j.me
2020-05-08 17:15:07 login if they offer 1 dollar more, you make 1 dollar more
2020-05-08 17:19:26 jan j.cat is just 499$/year
2020-05-08 17:22:50 jan j is premium, that's all i have to say
2020-05-08 17:22:58 ben tomasino: 17m2d
2020-05-08 17:23:09 ben i'm not sure i got credits from you
2020-05-08 17:25:27 ben i'm only seeing 100k credits
2020-05-08 17:26:05 ben pretty slick solution though
2020-05-08 17:43:39 ~tiwesdaeg there are several two letter .ci domains available
2020-05-08 17:44:20 ben you have to host a ci server though
2020-05-08 17:44:24 ben that's the requirement
2020-05-08 18:07:19 jan I gave up. jan.bio is short enough...
2020-05-08 18:11:27 jan6 ye
2020-05-08 18:12:14 jan jan6: you should register jan6.bio ;-)
2020-05-08 18:12:25 jan for total confusion
2020-05-08 18:12:47 jan6 lol
2020-05-08 18:13:51 jan6 wer.ee and 1337331.xyz are enough for me, I might want to update https://about.me/jan6 to not point to my dead old site, lol
2020-05-08 18:15:09 ⚡ jan6 only stepped in to figure out where the gemini docs are, only to be dissapointed they aren't in the topic
2020-05-08 18:17:50 jan6 I wanna automatically download all of konpeito, and thinking why not make a netcat and shell scripts thingy to parse that ;P
2020-05-08 18:19:10 jan6 (I suppose something to deal with tls/ssl but still)
2020-05-08 19:03:49 jan just committed initial geminisupport for ncgopher
2020-05-08 19:04:03 jan binary downloads are not yet supported
2020-05-08 19:06:27 ~tiwesdaeg I hadn't even heard of ncgopher
2020-05-08 19:06:36 ~tiwesdaeg so many clients and so little time
2020-05-08 19:06:43 jan6 lol ye
2020-05-08 19:07:00 ~tiwesdaeg Work has been eating all my time today and I meant to compile the most recent version of castor
2020-05-08 19:07:45 jan now you can try ncgopher instead ;-)
2020-05-08 19:08:03 jan https://github.com/jansc/ncgopher
2020-05-08 19:08:29 jan6 anyone used socat or openssl's s_client successfully to connect to gemini?
2020-05-08 19:10:05 ~tiwesdaeg all these rusty projects
2020-05-08 19:10:09 ~tiwesdaeg they're going to fall apart
2020-05-08 19:10:16 jan nope ;-)
2020-05-08 19:11:05 jan6 nope @ haven't tried or nope at "not gonna fall apart"?
2020-05-08 19:12:12 jan nope at not gonna fal apart
2020-05-08 19:12:34 ~tiwesdaeg I'm running openbsd here on my work play computer
2020-05-08 19:12:42 ~tiwesdaeg we'll see if it compiles
2020-05-08 19:12:49 jan it compiles on freebsd
2020-05-08 19:12:58 jan (my private work machine)
2020-05-08 19:12:59 ~tiwesdaeg freebsd smells funny
2020-05-08 19:13:49 ~tiwesdaeg I've got two monitors. One hooked up to my official work computer I just use for email and some documents creation
2020-05-08 19:14:01 ~tiwesdaeg then my other for my fun computer!
2020-05-08 19:14:25 jan I'd like to try out openbsd on my old mac mini
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2020-05-08 19:14:30 ~tiwesdaeg I was just using my laptop, but got tired of hooking it up each day, so I revived an old hp office computer
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2020-05-08 19:14:32 jan or netbsd if that does not work
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2020-05-08 19:15:03 ~tiwesdaeg I run both and seem to do better with openbsd on x86
2020-05-08 19:15:16 ~tiwesdaeg yay, didn't compile
2020-05-08 19:15:22 ~tiwesdaeg let's read the errors
2020-05-08 19:15:55 jan depends on sqlite and ncurses
2020-05-08 19:16:15 ~tiwesdaeg it's the openssl-sys crate
2020-05-08 19:16:22 jan ah, right
2020-05-08 19:16:31 ~tiwesdaeg I'm running 6.7 current
2020-05-08 19:16:36 ~tiwesdaeg I ran in to this before
2020-05-08 19:17:12 ⚡ jan6 getting all kinds of ssl errors trying to do gemini
2020-05-08 19:17:15 ~tiwesdaeg my libressl is too new
2020-05-08 19:18:52 ~tiwesdaeg I believe julienxx fixed this for castor
2020-05-08 19:19:06 jan hm.
2020-05-08 19:20:37 ⚡ jan6 grumbles at ssl shenanigans
2020-05-08 19:23:47 jan I'm at my cabin with a lousy internet connection, otherwise i could install openbsd in a virtual machine and try it out myself
2020-05-08 19:24:09 ~tiwesdaeg I think openbsd 6.6 would compile it
2020-05-08 19:24:52 ~tiwesdaeg I'm guessing by the time 6.7 is realeased, the open-ssl crate owner will have updated it to build correctly
2020-05-08 19:25:02 jan can you paste the error message somewhere?
2020-05-08 19:25:54 ~tiwesdaeg sure, give me a minute
2020-05-08 19:29:37 ~tiwesdaeg jan: https://pastebin.com/1wSXJ2DP
2020-05-08 19:33:25 jan thanks!
2020-05-08 19:33:44 ~tiwesdaeg no problem
2020-05-08 19:34:25 ~tiwesdaeg I want to say he modified a local copy of the crate or something
2020-05-08 19:34:32 ~tiwesdaeg my rust experience is minimal
2020-05-08 19:34:53 ~tiwesdaeg like ti downloaded from the same location as the git repository was located
2020-05-08 19:36:32 jan hm. version 0.9.55 is old, latest version of this crate is is 0.10.29
2020-05-08 19:36:53 jan but it seems to be installed as a dependency somewhere.
2020-05-08 19:37:16 ~tiwesdaeg openssl = { git = "https://github.com/julienXX/rust-openssl", branch="master" }
2020-05-08 19:37:44 ~tiwesdaeg that in the Cargo.toml for castor
2020-05-08 19:42:19 ~tiwesdaeg Compiling rustc_version v0.2.3
2020-05-08 19:42:32 ~tiwesdaeg that's what triggers the error I think
2020-05-08 19:43:54 ~tiwesdaeg it hasn't been updated for 2 years
2020-05-08 19:47:30 jan hm. weird.
2020-05-08 19:49:34 ~tiwesdaeg it's openssl-sys
2020-05-08 19:49:46 ~tiwesdaeg not openssl that is triggereing it
2020-05-08 19:50:05 ~tiwesdaeg I told it to use v0.9.56
2020-05-08 19:51:18 jan seems like openssl-sys is a dependency of native-tls
2020-05-08 19:51:27 ~tiwesdaeg I think we made it
2020-05-08 19:51:39 jan and native-tls has not updated its dependencies in a while
2020-05-08 19:51:53 ~tiwesdaeg fingers crossed
2020-05-08 19:52:03 ~tiwesdaeg it got past rustc_version
2020-05-08 19:52:15 jan good start ;)
2020-05-08 19:53:10 ~tiwesdaeg at lest I know enough to sort of understand what Cargo.toml is ;P
2020-05-08 19:53:24 ~tiwesdaeg this thing is an old core2duo
2020-05-08 19:53:31 ~tiwesdaeg takes forever to compile things
2020-05-08 19:53:51 jan and rustc is not the fastest compiler
2020-05-08 19:56:28 ~tiwesdaeg still chugging along
2020-05-08 19:56:33 ~tiwesdaeg it's almost time to go home
2020-05-08 19:57:07 jan I pushed an updated cargo.toml. but you don't have to use it if your current build works
2020-05-08 19:57:53 ~tiwesdaeg let us see what happens
2020-05-08 19:59:48 jan thanks for taking your time!
2020-05-08 20:00:25 ⚡ jan6 figured out how to gemini get stuff with a very roundabout way, with socat -> netcat -> other stuff
2020-05-08 20:00:56 ~tiwesdaeg we have compiled!
2020-05-08 20:01:03 jan wohooo!
2020-05-08 20:01:15 ~tiwesdaeg so it was openssl-sys needing the bump to the newest version
2020-05-08 20:01:56 ~tiwesdaeg are those some beautiful ncurses graphics there?
2020-05-08 20:03:30 jan ncurses all the way down
2020-05-08 20:03:38 ~tiwesdaeg alright, it's time for me to head home
2020-05-08 20:04:00 ~tiwesdaeg I'll install the client on debian when I get home later
2020-05-08 20:04:02 jan thanks again for giving ncgopher a try!
2020-05-08 20:04:27 ~tiwesdaeg it looks really nice
2020-05-08 20:19:10 jan thanks!
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2020-05-08 22:54:06 makeworld jan6: jan: I've been able to connect with servers using gnutls-cli
2020-05-08 22:54:13 jan6 can anyone confirm konpeito to be down right now?
2020-05-08 22:54:52 makeworld Yep
2020-05-08 22:54:56 makeworld I get connection refused
2020-05-08 22:55:24 jan6 also I managed to get stuff working using socat to a local socket, waiting 0.5 seconds, and then netcat-ing out of the local socket...
2020-05-08 22:55:40 makeworld Interesting lol
2020-05-08 22:56:05 makeworld I think I'm gonna write a markdown to gemini tool
2020-05-08 22:56:06 jan6 so now I have a script that allows to automatically mirror konpeito files, but would work for any other site with a page full of file links ;P
2020-05-08 22:56:19 jan6 I should properly read the spec sometime
2020-05-08 22:56:24 makeworld Oh nice
2020-05-08 22:56:32 makeworld I made a gemini downloader if that helps with mirroring
2020-05-08 22:56:54 jan6 by mirror, I mean that it just gets the page, and downloads all the links on it, lol
2020-05-08 22:57:04 makeworld It doesn't do recursive downloading, but you could pass it a bunch of urls that you've scraped
2020-05-08 22:57:06 makeworld Yeah lol
2020-05-08 22:57:06 jan6 same
2020-05-08 22:57:15 makeworld Oh got a link?
2020-05-08 22:57:17 jan6 what did you make yours in?
2020-05-08 22:57:23 jan6 no link, all local so far
2020-05-08 22:57:33 makeworld Go, it's at https://github.com/makeworld-the-better-one/gemget/
2020-05-08 22:57:42 jan6 mine is all shell scripts, like most of my stuff, lol
2020-05-08 23:09:49 makeworld Definitely read the spec though, it's quick and easy
2020-05-08 23:10:00 makeworld Good to get a overview of how it all works
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2020-05-08 23:37:57 styan I made an echo server, and I was testing out the percent encoding/decoding, and somehow I got tmux to change how a bunch of characters are displayed.
2020-05-08 23:38:20 @tomasino that's exciting
2020-05-08 23:38:33 styan It is only cosmentic, and only some characters.
2020-05-08 23:38:40 styan Including all lowercase characters.
2020-05-08 23:40:52 styan I was echoing random control characters back to the terminal, thinking wrongly that most of them would not do anything without ESC, "^T^?^N^S^L" did something.
2020-05-09 00:17:19 styan It gets weirder. It only happens in ttys that ncurses was used on.
2020-05-09 00:19:12 styan It looks like it is an xterm(1) bug, st(1) does not break.
2020-05-09 00:20:59 styan Okay, nevermind, it is an xterm(1) and tmux(1) bug. Somehow they have the same bug.
2020-05-09 00:21:37 @tomasino magic sauce
2020-05-09 00:24:06 styan It is probably more likely that st(1) does not implement whatever feature causes this.
2020-05-09 00:25:48 styan Oh, and from ASCII it only affects "+,-.0`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~".
2020-05-09 00:34:48 jan6 https://tildegit.org/jan6/geminish
2020-05-09 00:34:49 jan6 wheee
2020-05-09 00:35:34 jan6 a bit naive implementation, didn't read the spec well, has magic wait times, etc, but hey, it works ;P
2020-05-09 00:36:14 jan6 makeworld: ^ I put my thingy up ^
2020-05-09 00:44:43 styan Okay, I figured out most of the bug, '\016' (shift-out) did it, and '\017' (shift-in) fixes it. Somewhat anti-climactic.
2020-05-09 01:25:14 tuesday jan: ncgopher compiled just fine on debian
2020-05-09 04:25:06 styan I made an excessively engineered echo server: https://tildegit.org/styan/gemini-echo-server
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2020-05-09 05:29:31 login hi tleb
2020-05-09 05:29:36 login and lucidiot
2020-05-09 05:32:32 tleb hi
2020-05-09 05:34:52 tleb I had a quick question about the procol, as I was implementing my own client. How should a link such as "foo/bar/" be parsed? It could be relative or absolute with "foo" as host
2020-05-09 05:41:02 login depends on if foo resolves to a host or not
2020-05-09 05:41:05 login *a potential host
2020-05-09 05:41:20 styan There is an example like that in the spec "=> foo/bar/baz.txt A relative link"
2020-05-09 05:41:30 login ah, so it is always relative
2020-05-09 05:41:40 login for absolute, would one do /foo/bar/baztxt or
2020-05-09 05:41:55 login gemini://foo/bar/baz.txt?
2020-05-09 05:42:45 styan According to the URI spec, /foo/bar/baz.txt is absolute, but `foo' is not the host name.
2020-05-09 05:43:13 styan The hostname is only technically valid after the "//"
2020-05-09 05:44:06 styan The Gemini spec says that the protocol is optional, and assumed to be "gemini:" if it is missing, so "//hostname/foo/bar/baz.txt" would be valid.
2020-05-09 05:47:35 tleb I assumed that "If the URL does not include a scheme, a scheme of gemini:// is implied." meant that we could have absolute URL of type "example.org/foo". So that's not true?
2020-05-09 05:50:17 styan The scheme part of the uri does not include the "//", and hostnames are only expected after the "//".
2020-05-09 05:50:37 tleb Ok, that's clearer. Thanks!
2020-05-09 05:51:00 styan Here is the RFC for URIs: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3986
2020-05-09 05:51:41 styan I personally found it very fiddly and unfun (especially IPv6).
2020-05-09 05:52:36 styan It is not complicated, however. Just fiddly.
2020-05-09 06:25:42 tleb I once had to parse IPv6, wasn't fun. The zeros-abbreviation lead to a stateful parser a bit too stateful
2020-05-09 06:35:23 jan tuesday: thanks for testing!
2020-05-09 08:08:37 login They should have said a scheme of gemini: is implied
2020-05-09 08:19:20 styan Let us see what gemini.circumlunar.space is doing :-)
2020-05-09 08:19:54 styan gemini.circumlunar.space -> 53 No proxying to other hosts!
2020-05-09 08:20:10 styan \/gemini.circumlunar.space -> 53 No proxying to other hosts!
2020-05-09 08:20:28 styan \//gemini.circumlunar.space -> 31 gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/
2020-05-09 08:22:08 styan I wonder what its parser thinks that request is trying to proxy to?
2020-05-09 08:44:47 tleb If the server is Molly Brown, then the reason is there: https://tildegit.org/solderpunk/molly-brown/src/branch/master/handler.go#L66
2020-05-09 08:45:01 tleb It parses the URL using Go's stdlib url.Parse()
2020-05-09 08:45:14 tleb Which gives a struct with a host == ""
2020-05-09 08:45:57 tleb And it checks the empty string against the config defined host, which is therefore different
2020-05-09 08:48:29 styan That is basically what I thought, but it would have been amusing if the answer was "/", or something similarly silly. :-)
2020-05-09 13:58:32 ℹ irc: disconnected from server
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2020-05-09 13:59:10 ℹ Topic for #gemini is "Gemini (protocol) enthusiasts - gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/"
2020-05-09 13:59:10 ℹ Topic set by tomasino (~tomasino@gopher.black) on Thu, 07 May 2020 21:18:38
2020-05-09 13:59:10 ℹ Channel #gemini: 32 nicks (2 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 30 normals)
2020-05-09 13:59:10 ℹ Mode #gemini [+o tomasino] by ChanServ
2020-05-09 13:59:46 ℹ Channel created on Sat, 31 Aug 2019 22:41:57
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2020-05-09 20:24:20 styan My echo server is running on tilde.black:5691 for a bit, if anyone wants to poke it. It returns status 10 if the request does not have a query, so it can test that client feature.
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2020-05-11 08:19:07 @julienxx Hi there! If anybody uses some of my software (Asuka, Pollux or atomini) their repos have been moved to Sourcehut where Castor was already hosted. The software list on gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/software/ is up to date with the new URLs.
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2020-05-11 12:46:08 ~tiwesdaeg julienxx: how is Pollux doing these days?
2020-05-11 12:46:16 ~tiwesdaeg I don't think I ever got it to work
2020-05-11 12:53:32 @julienxx haven't touched it in a while unfortunately but I read that vi.rs used Pollux with modifications
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2020-05-11 13:16:13 ~tiwesdaeg I've been wanting to host gopher.libraryoferis.org on gemini, but I need some functioning cgi
2020-05-11 13:16:46 ~tiwesdaeg I think jetforce may work for my needs, but I'm not sure
2020-05-11 13:18:32 ~tiwesdaeg I'm using molly-brown on tilde.pink due the built in support for user public_gemini folders
2020-05-11 13:21:01 ~tiwesdaeg with jetforce, I had to create symbolic links for each user
2020-05-11 13:27:30 ~tiwesdaeg honestly, something like geomyidae for gemini would be great
2020-05-11 13:29:22 @tomasino i also made a bunch of links for black to use jetforce
2020-05-11 13:30:26 ~tiwesdaeg it's kind of a pain
2020-05-11 13:30:34 @tomasino it was
2020-05-11 13:30:42 @tomasino black isn't ever doing it again, so that helps
2020-05-11 13:30:50 @tomasino but for another tilde you'd have to code it into the new user script
2020-05-11 13:30:58 ~tiwesdaeg I removed them all after installing molly-brown
2020-05-11 13:31:05 ~tiwesdaeg works like gophernicus
2020-05-11 13:31:15 @tomasino cool
2020-05-11 13:31:38 @tomasino i had to do some other fancy-pants stuff too, cause homedirs are 700 on black
2020-05-11 13:31:40 ~tiwesdaeg I can't figure out cgi on molly-brown though
2020-05-11 13:31:51 @tomasino is molly-brown solderpunks?
2020-05-11 13:32:08 ~tiwesdaeg I still have a script running to see if users change index.gmi.sample to index.gmi
2020-05-11 13:32:13 ~tiwesdaeg to add to the main page
2020-05-11 13:32:16 ~tiwesdaeg it is
2020-05-11 13:32:29 @tomasino he doesn't hang with us in irc enough
2020-05-11 13:32:30 @tomasino :)
2020-05-11 13:32:43 ~tiwesdaeg I feel like I generally have an easier time compiling go software than rust
2020-05-11 13:32:50 ~tiwesdaeg I know, the slacker
2020-05-11 13:33:01 @tomasino i have a hard time with both
2020-05-11 13:33:14 ~tiwesdaeg julienxx is my favorite gemini dev ;P
2020-05-11 13:33:19 ~tiwesdaeg always around to pester
2020-05-11 13:33:23 @tomasino julienxx++
2020-05-11 13:33:47 @julienxx haha thanks!
2020-05-11 13:35:11 ~tiwesdaeg I think the biggest challenge so far with any gemini software project is figuring out how to compile it
2020-05-11 13:36:13 ~tiwesdaeg that lua server, I could not figur out how to get all the dpenendencies
2020-05-11 13:41:08 @tomasino Package managers FTW
2020-05-11 13:42:05 @tomasino It's love to see a flatpack for some of these
2020-05-11 13:42:09 @tomasino That's my new fav
2020-05-11 13:42:56 @julienxx this will be solved once packaging will be figured out, never packaged anything for a distro but I'm trying to submit Castor to OpenBSD ports
2020-05-11 13:43:19 @tomasino I need to figure out how to use ports
2020-05-11 13:43:28 @tomasino Not a clue
2020-05-11 13:51:06 @julienxx It's not really simple https://www.openbsd.org/faq/ports/ports.html#PortsInstall but doable
2020-05-11 13:55:09 tleb Any C client/server? I already have a simplistic client in Go but my plan is to have a client+server implemented in C
2020-05-11 13:55:32 @tomasino so i need to clone down something first
2020-05-11 13:55:37 @tomasino cause i don't even have /usr/ports
2020-05-11 13:56:07 tleb First issue: write a proper Makefile :'(
2020-05-11 13:56:18 @tomasino oh yeah, gotta scroll up to the top of that page
2020-05-11 13:57:29 @tomasino "The ports tree is meant for advanced users."
2020-05-11 13:57:31 @tomasino awesome
2020-05-11 13:57:32 @tomasino haha
2020-05-11 13:57:42 @tomasino black has gotten by with pkg_add so far
2020-05-11 13:57:52 @tomasino but i know there's stuff in ports that someone will ask for eventually
2020-05-11 14:08:25 @julienxx tomasino: yes you have to fetch the ports tree beforehand
2020-05-11 16:34:16 tleb The "[ \t]+" in the response header is really annoying as we can't just have a fixed size buffer to read the header :|
2020-05-11 16:42:35 @julienxx with the various mime types in the meta part you still couldn't I suppose
2020-05-11 16:50:04 tleb Meta has a max length though
2020-05-11 16:51:45 tleb You could assume that one read of size 2+1+1024+2 would contain the entire header if <whitespace> = "[ \t]"
2020-05-11 16:56:29 @julienxx oh right, skipped the max size for meta
2020-05-11 16:57:32 tleb Although it's unclear if it's 1024 bytes or 1024 code points from the spec
2020-05-11 16:57:33 tleb > <META> is a UTF-8 encoded string of maximum length 1024, whose meaning
2020-05-11 16:57:33 tleb is <STATUS> dependent.
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2020-05-11 19:23:31 cmccabe the stragglers are catching up. rawtext.club finally running a gemini server, gemini://rawtext.club (although without much content at the moment
2020-05-11 19:49:31 @tomasino noice
2020-05-11 19:49:34 @tomasino this is great
2020-05-11 21:17:01 styan tomasino: There is a set for ports that you can download and extract.
2020-05-11 21:17:05 styan https://cdn.openbsd.org/pub/OpenBSD/6.6/ports.tar.gz
2020-05-11 21:17:34 styan It is much faster than CVS.
2020-05-11 21:27:11 styan tleb_: I wrote a client library in C, and had a similar reaction to the infinite white-spaces when I did. That and an event-based echo server are on my tildegit.
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2020-05-11 22:08:42 tleb Nice! I properly started just now and libtls' API is awesome, I noticed you used it too.
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2020-05-11 22:28:18 styan Yes, libtls is good. Though when I tried to compile it in a Linux VM after I was done I noticed that I could not `apt install libressl'.
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2020-05-12 15:09:59 cmccabe does anyone maintain a list of active gemini servers?
2020-05-12 15:13:48 @julienxx solderpunk does at gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/servers/
2020-05-12 15:21:29 cmccabe oh nice. thanks julienxx
2020-05-12 15:22:33 cmccabe sloum just created a gemini updates aggregator too, if anyone is interested: gemini://rawtext.club:1965/~sloum/spacewalk.gmi
2020-05-12 15:31:30 @julienxx oh that's looking good!
2020-05-12 16:02:25 cmccabe i was impressed too!
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2020-05-13 11:00:47 ⚡ jan6 learned that https://bearssl.org/ is a thing, might try to use this sometime
2020-05-13 11:01:10 jan6 "a minimal server implementation may fit in about 20 kilobytes of compiled code and 25 kilobytes of RAM."
2020-05-13 11:01:34 jan6 and since it's C, it can be used with a ton of languages ;P
2020-05-13 11:13:47 login ^ that's normal for the 1960s of computers
2020-05-13 11:29:45 jan6 you could probably run it on one of them
2020-05-13 11:29:46 jan6 lol
2020-05-13 11:29:49 jan6 also it's not
2020-05-13 11:35:21 styan Huh, FreeBSD can use BearSSL in its loader for things like Secure Boot.
2020-05-13 11:39:32 login ^ that's nice
2020-05-13 11:44:16 @tomasino Cool
2020-05-13 11:44:39 styan BearSSL's Makefile is even more horrifying than mine are.
2020-05-13 11:45:42 styan It does a newline escape hack to support nmake.exe.
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2020-05-13 12:12:19 login well, is that a bad thing?
2020-05-13 12:12:27 login why does nmake.exe not like newlines?
2020-05-13 12:26:20 @tomasino nmake sounds funny when you say it
2020-05-13 12:29:55 login like mbappe
2020-05-13 12:30:11 @tomasino sounds like it should be a starbucks drink
2020-05-13 12:31:48 login starbucks is so bougie
2020-05-13 12:32:00 login and so is apple
2020-05-13 12:33:53 jan6 npampe
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2020-05-13 15:50:05 cmccabe julienxx: what is the url of the castor repo?
2020-05-13 15:50:41 @julienxx https://git.sr.ht/~julienxx/castor
2020-05-13 15:51:11 cmccabe thanks :)
2020-05-13 15:51:13 ~tiwesdaeg julienxx: I ran in to a weird gopher link issue on castor the other day
2020-05-13 15:51:21 ~tiwesdaeg let me see if I can replicate it
2020-05-13 15:57:43 ~tiwesdaeg gopher://tilde.pink/1/test.gph
2020-05-13 15:58:00 ~tiwesdaeg castor does not display a link for type "h"
2020-05-13 15:58:09 ~tiwesdaeg bombadillo does
2020-05-13 15:58:23 ~tiwesdaeg it just sort of ignores it and doesn't display anything for that line
2020-05-13 16:00:40 login can we replace the internet with a signal protocol for communication?
2020-05-13 16:00:45 login html over signal procol
2020-05-13 16:00:52 login or gemini in this case
2020-05-13 16:02:35 login what is your vision for Castor?
2020-05-13 16:04:27 @julienxx not sure what you mean, Gemini is mostly a read-only protocol even if it has some kind of input type
2020-05-13 16:12:23 @julienxx tiwesdaeg: spotted the bug, will fix it shortly. Thanks!
2020-05-13 16:13:44 ~tiwesdaeg also, have you thought about gopher urls displaying the gopher selector?
2020-05-13 16:14:04 ~tiwesdaeg nevermind
2020-05-13 16:14:11 ~tiwesdaeg I clicked a link and it was there
2020-05-13 16:15:02 @julienxx allright just pushed 0.8.4 that fixes the h link issue
2020-05-13 16:15:20 ~tiwesdaeg I haven't tried every selector yet
2020-05-13 16:16:51 @julienxx type 7 is not yet supported
2020-05-13 16:18:03 login why?
2020-05-13 16:20:51 ~tiwesdaeg it smells funny
2020-05-13 16:20:57 @julienxx login: time essentially
2020-05-13 16:21:11 @julienxx it's planned though
2020-05-13 16:21:12 login ah
2020-05-13 16:21:45 login well, it's a good project, will it be published on the play store?
2020-05-13 16:23:52 @julienxx for mobile phones? Never though about that, there is already a real Android client in the works
2020-05-13 16:24:06 ~tiwesdaeg both android gopher clients suck
2020-05-13 16:24:11 ~tiwesdaeg is there a gemini client?
2020-05-13 16:24:26 @julienxx yes let me find where I saw that
2020-05-13 16:25:27 ~tiwesdaeg not pulling anything up in f-droid
2020-05-13 16:28:08 @julienxx it's not released yet but I saw someone working on one, can't find where
2020-05-13 16:28:18 ~tiwesdaeg ahh
2020-05-13 16:28:35 ~tiwesdaeg solderpunk's software list can take a bit to update sometimes
2020-05-13 16:28:56 @tomasino i appreciated his "content first" mailing list email the other day
2020-05-13 16:29:55 ~tiwesdaeg https://framagit.org/waweic/gemini-client
2020-05-13 16:30:18 @julienxx yes it's that one!
2020-05-13 16:30:27 ~tiwesdaeg I updated my phlog/gemlog just to make some extra content after reading that
2020-05-13 16:30:51 ~tiwesdaeg and I got added t one of the aggregators
2020-05-13 16:31:46 @julienxx did my part today too
2020-05-13 16:38:26 @julienxx with all those clients and servers being developed it would be a shame not to see more content
2020-05-13 16:39:11 @julienxx I like gemini://vi.rs and gemini://astrobotany.mozz.us
2020-05-13 16:39:59 @tomasino i'm revisiting by ~black page now
2020-05-13 16:40:03 @tomasino giving it some life
2020-05-13 16:41:22 ~tiwesdaeg I like the icon usage on astrobotany
2020-05-13 16:42:33 @julienxx on ~.black the stoned.txt are awesome!
2020-05-13 16:42:43 @tomasino i love that theme
2020-05-13 16:42:44 @tomasino haha
2020-05-13 16:43:11 @tomasino just fixed some indexing for the user pages so bombadillo doesn't throw redirect notices on links
2020-05-13 16:43:17 @tomasino okay, i need ot build castor
2020-05-13 16:43:19 @tomasino what do i do?
2020-05-13 16:43:46 @julienxx I can make you a build if you prefer
2020-05-13 16:43:56 @julienxx I'm on my Ubuntu machine right now
2020-05-13 16:43:59 @tomasino oh nice
2020-05-13 16:44:01 @tomasino i love that
2020-05-13 16:44:55 @tomasino is my ascii art on ~black looking okay on your end? maybe just a problem with the older build?
2020-05-13 16:44:59 @tomasino i think i code fenced it
2020-05-13 16:45:11 @tomasino nope
2020-05-13 16:45:12 @tomasino i'm dumb
2020-05-13 16:45:14 @tomasino one sec!
2020-05-13 16:45:52 ~tiwesdaeg tomasino: looks fine from an openbsd build of castor
2020-05-13 16:45:52 @tomasino fixed!
2020-05-13 16:45:56 @tomasino :D
2020-05-13 16:46:02 @tomasino i didn't have code fencing on my header
2020-05-13 16:46:35 ~tiwesdaeg I need to rebuild castor for the new update
2020-05-13 16:47:01 @julienxx tomasino: here you are https://juliensharing.s3.amazonaws.com/castor-0.8.4-ubuntu.zip
2020-05-13 16:47:19 @julienxx I really need to setup a proper FTP and stop using aws
2020-05-13 16:47:49 @tomasino 3thanks!
2020-05-13 16:47:54 @julienxx much better with the code fences :)
2020-05-13 16:47:55 @tomasino hrm, my ## users header is falling off
2020-05-13 16:48:04 @tomasino lemme try the new version
2020-05-13 16:49:04 @tomasino hrm, still missing
2020-05-13 16:49:04 jan6 lol, how bad of an idea would it be to pack up an android app that's literally a terminal emulator running a program or few? ;P
2020-05-13 16:50:08 @tomasino do you see anything wrong with my header syntax on the tilde.black index page, julienxx ?
2020-05-13 16:50:15 @tomasino ## Users
2020-05-13 16:50:30 @julienxx no I can see it, did you customize the colors?
2020-05-13 16:51:58 @tomasino i did, probably screwed that up
2020-05-13 16:52:00 @tomasino uno momento
2020-05-13 16:52:00 @julienxx like h2 color would be the same as background?
2020-05-13 16:53:18 ~tiwesdaeg 0.8.4 builds successfully!
2020-05-13 16:53:35 @julienxx yay! What system are you using?
2020-05-13 16:53:38 @tomasino must have been, yeah
2020-05-13 16:53:44 @tomasino picknig a better color now
2020-05-13 16:55:53 ~tiwesdaeg h selector worked perfectly and was handed off to firefox
2020-05-13 16:56:12 @tomasino this is sexy my man
2020-05-13 16:56:21 ~tiwesdaeg isn't it
2020-05-13 16:56:27 ~tiwesdaeg you like that icon ;P
2020-05-13 16:56:45 ~tiwesdaeg I don't get to see it since I am using CWM right now
2020-05-13 16:56:48 @tomasino icon?
2020-05-13 16:56:58 @tomasino i don't get one of those with the build, i don't think
2020-05-13 16:57:01 ~tiwesdaeg what WM/DE are you uisng?
2020-05-13 16:57:05 @tomasino gnome
2020-05-13 16:57:19 ~tiwesdaeg ahh, it's probably part of make install
2020-05-13 16:57:24 @tomasino yeah
2020-05-13 16:57:26 @tomasino likely
2020-05-13 16:57:35 @tomasino i should get around to doing that though
2020-05-13 16:57:37 ~tiwesdaeg it installs a .desktop file
2020-05-13 16:57:44 @tomasino this deserves to become a default handler for gemini
2020-05-13 16:57:48 ~tiwesdaeg just needs a little rust
2020-05-13 16:58:11 ~tiwesdaeg should be easy peasy on linux
2020-05-13 16:59:02 jan6 rust?!?
2020-05-13 16:59:28 @julienxx yeah I should provide a step by step installation process someday, I don't remember which dependencies I had to install for GTK
2020-05-13 16:59:33 @tomasino brool is so damn cool
2020-05-13 16:59:50 ~tiwesdaeg julienxx: I think the problem is, each distro will be different
2020-05-13 17:00:08 ~tiwesdaeg and then bsd's are even more different
2020-05-13 17:00:38 @julienxx yeah I only have OpenBSD and Ubuntu at hand and not really the time to fiddle with the most common distros
2020-05-13 17:01:56 @julienxx tomasino: I use Castor as my default handler for gopher and gemini, works great. I am always surprised to see my tool pop up :)
2020-05-13 17:01:59 jan6 debian/ubuntu, arch, freebsd and openbsd, should give a pretty wide base, possibly fedora too
2020-05-13 17:03:02 @julienxx someone told me about openbuild https://build.opensuse.org/ that might be a solution but haven't looked into it yet
2020-05-13 17:03:35 @julienxx flatpak is possible but has too much haters
2020-05-13 17:04:08 jan6 flatpak, eeeh
2020-05-13 17:04:24 jan6 I'd take an AppImae over a flatpak any day
2020-05-13 17:04:29 jan6 *AppImage
2020-05-13 17:10:53 @julienxx Hmm will look into AppImage
2020-05-13 17:11:17 @julienxx Does it work like out of the box?
2020-05-13 17:19:08 ~tiwesdaeg I feel like you needed something still
2020-05-13 17:19:55 ~tiwesdaeg maybe that was flatpak
2020-05-13 17:20:14 ⚡ tiwesdaeg pulls out his laptop with debian on it
2020-05-13 17:24:14 ~tiwesdaeg mmmm 160 kb/s max
2020-05-13 17:29:17 ~tiwesdaeg it does work as advertised
2020-05-13 17:29:36 ~tiwesdaeg I made it executable and ran it
2020-05-13 17:35:34 ~tiwesdaeg Which browsers support client tls keys?
2020-05-13 17:39:47 jan6 AppImage should work out of the box, pretty much, because the idea is that you put all the dependecies inside it
2020-05-13 17:45:22 ~tiwesdaeg it the macos app concept
2020-05-13 17:45:40 ~tiwesdaeg /s/it/it's
2020-05-13 17:57:26 jan6 idk anything about macs
2020-05-13 17:57:48 ⚡ jan6 wonders what cipher suites should be supported with gemini TLS
2020-05-13 18:05:42 ~tiwesdaeg hmmm
2020-05-13 18:06:46 ~tiwesdaeg jetforce supports cgi, but I seem to be failing to input data into a cgi script like script.cgi?someinfo
2020-05-13 18:13:50 @tomasino appimage++
2020-05-13 18:14:07 @tomasino i LOVE appimages
2020-05-13 18:14:11 @tomasino chmod 755 and run
2020-05-13 18:14:11 @tomasino done
2020-05-13 18:14:12 jan6 no bitbot, but yeah, appimages are cool AND simple
2020-05-13 18:14:35 @tomasino oh, yeah, i have bitbot ignored everywhere but meta anyway. :D ++ all the things
2020-05-13 18:14:58 jan6 and all it is is an executable archive with a specific format, that you can unpack and run unpacked form too
2020-05-13 18:15:02 jan6 which is extra cool
2020-05-13 18:20:58 ~tiwesdaeg anyone get gemserv to compile?
2020-05-13 18:28:53 @julienxx tomasino: if you ever want to compile it yourself someone added this on the HN post: apt install build-essential rustc cargo libgtk-3-dev libgdk-pixbuf2.0-dev libssl-dev then make and make install
2020-05-13 18:33:36 @julienxx someone added MacOS instructions too https://tcp.rip/text/misc/install-castor.txt.html
2020-05-13 18:50:33 login tcp.rip, what a cool url
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2020-05-13 20:09:56 @tomasino doing the apt stuffs
2020-05-13 20:10:02 @tomasino i'll clone in a few
2020-05-13 20:19:36 @tomasino gtk sure does take a bit to build
2020-05-13 20:19:37 ⚡ tomasino waits
2020-05-13 20:21:54 @tomasino install victory
2020-05-13 20:21:58 @tomasino now i have a prety icon
2020-05-13 20:22:07 @tomasino okay, how do i make it the default gopher & gemini handler now
2020-05-13 20:26:16 @tomasino solved it
2020-05-13 20:26:18 @tomasino yay!
2020-05-13 20:26:21 @tomasino castor awesomeness
2020-05-13 20:44:36 @julienxx Cool :)
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2020-05-14 10:38:52 @julienxx Fresh paint gemini://typed-hole.org, what do you think?
2020-05-14 11:07:43 cmccabe very nice, julienxx! that's not figlet, it is?
2020-05-14 11:51:54 @julienxx no :) the letters come from https://fsymbols.com/
2020-05-14 12:52:05 ~tiwesdaeg julienxx: will castor eventually support type 9 selector?
2020-05-14 12:52:33 ~tiwesdaeg gopher.libraryoferis.org is chock full of pdf files
2020-05-14 12:52:34 login yes
2020-05-14 12:53:31 @julienxx it will
2020-05-14 12:53:33 login just need to learn how to parse pdf files
2020-05-14 12:54:26 ~tiwesdaeg I'm still at a standstill for cgi support to port the site over to gemini
2020-05-14 12:54:29 @julienxx Castor will download the file and open it with any app assiciated with .pdf thanks to xdg-open, let me see if I can quickly add it
2020-05-14 12:54:38 ~tiwesdaeg I'll try getting gemserv to compile again
2020-05-14 12:55:05 ~tiwesdaeg I've tried debian's version of rust, I used rustup, I tried using nightly
2020-05-14 12:55:11 ~tiwesdaeg that thing hates me
2020-05-14 12:55:42 ~tiwesdaeg right now it just displays the raw gophermap link
2020-05-14 12:56:05 ~tiwesdaeg is there a default to just download the file?
2020-05-14 12:56:16 ~tiwesdaeg that's what most gopher clients seem to do
2020-05-14 13:40:10 @julienxx I can build gemserv using stable rust from rustup on Ubuntu
2020-05-14 13:44:46 @julienxx Castor 0.8.6 pushed with binary files support
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2020-05-14 14:09:48 tuesday julienxx: I'll try and wipe my rustup instal and try again
2020-05-14 14:10:06 tuesday this is the box I am trying to get it to build on
2020-05-14 14:21:49 tuesday ok, now it compile
2020-05-14 14:21:51 tuesday s
2020-05-14 14:35:38 ben is there a geminid that supports ~/public_gemini dirs for users?
2020-05-14 14:35:59 ben i know tomasino wrote some cronjob that looks for new ones and sets up symlinks
2020-05-14 14:36:05 ben don't really feel like doing that :P
2020-05-14 14:43:49 ~tiwesdaeg ben: molly-brown supports user public_gemini directories
2020-05-14 14:43:55 ~tiwesdaeg gemserv does too
2020-05-14 14:43:58 @tomasino Jetforce currently doesn't do vdirs, but Molly...
2020-05-14 14:44:19 @tomasino I faked it on black with symlinks
2020-05-14 14:44:25 ~tiwesdaeg tilde.pink is running molly-brown and it's working great
2020-05-14 14:44:35 ~tiwesdaeg yeah, I originally did the same
2020-05-14 14:44:37 ben mm ok i think i will switch to that
2020-05-14 14:44:47 ~tiwesdaeg I'm poking at gemserv right now
2020-05-14 14:44:52 ben can you link the repo? i'm not finding it currently
2020-05-14 14:45:00 ~tiwesdaeg if I can get it running, it also fully supports cgi
2020-05-14 14:45:19 ~tiwesdaeg https://tildegit.org/solderpunk/molly-brown
2020-05-14 14:45:52 cmccabe tiwesdaeg: doesn't molly brown require the admin to manually link to each user's public_gemini?
2020-05-14 14:45:58 ben mmm nice
2020-05-14 14:46:00 ben thx
2020-05-14 14:46:25 ~tiwesdaeg cmccabe: nope
2020-05-14 14:47:13 @tomasino Every account on black has public_gemini and public_html and public_gopher. Users show up in the listings when they add the default index file in each
2020-05-14 14:47:13 cmccabe is there a config option? i had to set up symlinks from /var/gemini/users/username to each user (or at least i thought that was required)
2020-05-14 14:48:37 @tomasino https://tildegit.org/tilde.black/ops/src/branch/master/creategemini.sh
2020-05-14 14:49:04 ~tiwesdaeg in my /etc/molly.conf I have this line: HomeDocBase = "users"
2020-05-14 14:49:35 @tomasino I think tiwesdaeg's solution is easier
2020-05-14 14:49:37 @tomasino ;)
2020-05-14 14:50:16 cmccabe where docbase is /var/gemini?
2020-05-14 14:51:00 ~tiwesdaeg I still have a script that runs and looks to see if there is an index.gmi in each user's public_gemini folder to add a link to the main page
2020-05-14 14:51:13 ~tiwesdaeg yep
2020-05-14 14:51:19 cmccabe the gemini docs say "Note that Molly Brown does not look inside user's actual home directories like you may expect based on experience with other server software. Of course, you can symlink /var/gemini/users/gus/ to /home/gus/public_gemini/ if you want."
2020-05-14 14:51:34 ~tiwesdaeg whatever it's doing, it works
2020-05-14 14:51:40 cmccabe huh, interesting. thanks!
2020-05-14 14:51:49 cmccabe maybe the docs are outdated
2020-05-14 14:52:14 cmccabe what is your server url, tiwesdaeg?
2020-05-14 14:53:30 ~tiwesdaeg let me test it out
2020-05-14 14:53:34 ~tiwesdaeg tilde.pink
2020-05-14 14:54:31 ~tiwesdaeg ok, yeah, I still ahve a lot of holdover from jetforce
2020-05-14 14:54:42 cmccabe oh yeah, tilde.pink, i knew that :P
2020-05-14 14:54:53 ~tiwesdaeg I might just be giant idiot ;P
2020-05-14 14:56:20 ~tiwesdaeg I was having a weird issue were one of the new users had multiple links added by my script
2020-05-14 14:56:32 cmccabe tangent: i walked within 1/4 mile of molly brown's home in denver colorado last fall and didn't realize it. i blew the chance to an epic selfie (even though i don't do selfies)
2020-05-14 14:57:09 ~tiwesdaeg ok, maybe I do need symlinks hrmm
2020-05-14 14:57:25 ~tiwesdaeg I get so few new users
2020-05-14 14:57:54 ~tiwesdaeg ok, I guess it's time to sort out gemserv
2020-05-14 14:58:06 ben is there a list of server softwares?
2020-05-14 14:58:30 ~tiwesdaeg gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/software/
2020-05-14 15:03:04 ben why isn't that linked anywhere
2020-05-14 15:05:41 ben bombadillo isn't loading that...
2020-05-14 15:05:42 ~tiwesdaeg well, it's linked on the main gemini page at gemini.circumlunar.space
2020-05-14 15:06:11 ~tiwesdaeg works on my version of bombadillo
2020-05-14 15:06:19 ~tiwesdaeg is yours the older version without gemini support?
2020-05-14 15:06:20 ben would be nice if it were on the gopher or http version so you can find a client to view the list...
2020-05-14 15:06:29 ben i just built again from master
2020-05-14 15:07:02 ~tiwesdaeg I think the idea is to put all the content on gemini
2020-05-14 15:07:22 ~tiwesdaeg there's been talk about making it easier for people to install browsers
2020-05-14 15:07:26 ben if you don't have a client or server how will you find it
2020-05-14 15:07:30 ~tiwesdaeg since you have to compile everything
2020-05-14 15:07:36 ben chicken and egg problem
2020-05-14 15:07:55 ben also no note of there being more info on gemini
2020-05-14 15:08:12 ben No matching certificate was found for host "gemini.circumlunar.space"
2020-05-14 15:08:14 ben huh
2020-05-14 15:08:31 ~tiwesdaeg umm something about purging certs
2020-05-14 15:09:19 ben why is this so hard lol
2020-05-14 15:09:30 ~tiwesdaeg try this, hit space to get the prompt and enter "purge gemini.circumlunar.space"
2020-05-14 15:09:33 ~tiwesdaeg haha
2020-05-14 15:09:51 ben why do i have to do that
2020-05-14 15:09:59 ~tiwesdaeg security?
2020-05-14 15:10:06 ~tiwesdaeg I dunno
2020-05-14 15:10:08 ben what does that help
2020-05-14 15:10:13 ⚡ ben annoyed
2020-05-14 15:10:17 ben if you can't tell lol
2020-05-14 15:10:28 ~tiwesdaeg it lets you know that the cert has changed
2020-05-14 15:10:41 ben it didn't though
2020-05-14 15:10:53 ~tiwesdaeg no clue then
2020-05-14 15:11:35 ~tiwesdaeg gemserv is not working well for me
2020-05-14 15:11:51 ben bleh i will deal with this later
2020-05-14 15:11:53 ~tiwesdaeg gemini://libraryoferis.org/
2020-05-14 15:12:05 ~tiwesdaeg instead of loading index.gmi, we get a directory listing
2020-05-14 15:12:15 ~tiwesdaeg then it fails when selecting a link
2020-05-14 15:12:34 ~tiwesdaeg thread 'tokio-runtime-worker' panicked at 'called `Option::unwrap()` on a `None` value', src/main.rs:39:13
2020-05-14 15:12:42 ~tiwesdaeg rust hates mes
2020-05-14 15:13:41 ben :<
2020-05-14 15:41:03 lucidiot has quit (Client exited)
2020-05-14 15:48:05 ▬▬▶ lucidiot has joined #gemini
2020-05-14 15:52:37 @julienxx tiwesdaeg: from the source it seems it expects an index.gemini
2020-05-14 15:59:16 @julienxx is your gopher server down on gopher://gopher.libraryoferis.org or it's on my side?
2020-05-14 16:12:38 ~tiwesdaeg yeah, I rebooted the vps and never created systemd script for geomyidae
2020-05-14 16:13:20 ~tiwesdaeg did we never come up with a standard file type for gemini?
2020-05-14 16:13:28 ~tiwesdaeg most of the servers have been using .gmi
2020-05-14 16:15:39 ~tiwesdaeg thanks for the tip, .gemini worked for the index
2020-05-14 16:18:23 ~tiwesdaeg next trick, will the cgi do what I want
2020-05-14 16:31:33 ~tiwesdaeg all my cgi scripts kill all the browsers :(
2020-05-14 16:32:56 ~tiwesdaeg ok, av-98 is working
2020-05-14 16:34:10 @julienxx in the spec .gmi and .gemini are both valid, I use .gemini for my content
2020-05-14 16:42:45 ~tiwesdaeg hmm
2020-05-14 16:43:21 ~tiwesdaeg I'm trying to figure out why the cgi scripts cause bombadillo and castor to crash, but av-98 is working fine
2020-05-14 16:43:39 @julienxx do you have an URL I could try?
2020-05-14 16:43:57 ~tiwesdaeg gemini://libraryoferis.org/cgi-bin/test.cgi
2020-05-14 16:45:09 ~tiwesdaeg it's basically "printf "20 text/gemini\n"
2020-05-14 16:45:21 ~tiwesdaeg printf "\n"
2020-05-14 16:45:35 ~tiwesdaeg printf "test\n"
2020-05-14 16:46:51 @julienxx For Castor it's because you didn't add a clrf (\r\n) I think
2020-05-14 16:47:24 ~tiwesdaeg is clrf a requirement in the spec?
2020-05-14 16:48:14 ~tiwesdaeg that was it for bombadillo too
2020-05-14 16:49:44 @julienxx I think so
2020-05-14 16:50:44 @julienxx Yes from the spec "Gemini response headers look like this: <STATUS><whitespace><META><CR><LF>"
2020-05-14 16:52:38 ~tiwesdaeg thanks for the help
2020-05-14 16:53:06 ~tiwesdaeg let's see if I can get the next part to work
2020-05-14 16:56:12 ~tiwesdaeg gemini://libraryoferis.org/cgi-bin/item.cgi?LOE00001
2020-05-14 16:56:18 ~tiwesdaeg progress!
2020-05-14 16:56:35 @julienxx that's cool!
2020-05-14 16:56:59 ~tiwesdaeg with geomyidae, the variable for the query string is $2
2020-05-14 16:57:15 ~tiwesdaeg I had to change it to $QUERY_STRING
2020-05-14 16:57:49 ~tiwesdaeg ok, now to get the python script to output the correct link type
2020-05-14 17:03:40 @tomasino didn't the cr/lf thing get changed in discussion on the mailing list to be more flexible?
2020-05-14 17:03:49 @tomasino did that never make it back in the spec?
2020-05-14 17:10:27 ~tiwesdaeg gemini://libraryoferis.org/cgi-bin/item.cgi?LOE00001
2020-05-14 17:10:33 ~tiwesdaeg the TXT link works!
2020-05-14 17:47:56 ▬▬▶ xq has joined #gemini
2020-05-14 17:49:40 xq hey
2020-05-14 17:51:49 ~tiwesdaeg yo
2020-05-14 17:53:32 xq just discovered gemini and checking out some corners
2020-05-14 17:54:13 ~tiwesdaeg I'm working using cgi for dynamic gemini content
2020-05-14 17:54:40 xq oh neat!
2020-05-14 17:54:51 xq if you're on the ML, i'm the dude that just joined with a Zig project
2020-05-14 17:56:56 ~tiwesdaeg I remember seeing Zig on there
2020-05-14 17:58:27 xq oh really?
2020-05-14 18:00:49 ~tiwesdaeg I was just poking through the mailing list and Zig sounds familiar
2020-05-14 18:01:20 xq ah
2020-05-14 18:01:21 xq br_ssl_engine_last_error
2020-05-14 18:01:24 xq https://ziglang.org/
2020-05-14 18:01:30 xq my clipboard is so broken
2020-05-14 18:03:14 ~tiwesdaeg ahh, you're the guy with the esset in his name
2020-05-14 18:04:02 xq yep
2020-05-14 18:04:18 ~tiwesdaeg what sets zig apart from other languages?
2020-05-14 18:05:00 xq give me a sec, food was just delivered :D
2020-05-14 18:05:05 xq important interrupt
2020-05-14 18:16:54 @tomasino oh, solderpunk's last question was a good one
2020-05-14 18:17:03 ~tiwesdaeg I've got to go out and dig a posthole for a fence :(
2020-05-14 18:17:04 @tomasino about hosting IRC logs in gemini space
2020-05-14 18:17:33 @tomasino i could probably rig that up
2020-05-14 18:18:17 @julienxx That would be cool, I have no idea on how it’s achievable though
2020-05-14 18:18:38 ~tiwesdaeg ugh, new project?
2020-05-14 18:18:52 @julienxx I have a bouncer maybe I could extract stuff from there but there must be a better way
2020-05-14 18:19:06 xq quick info: i already host some irc logs on http
2020-05-14 18:19:11 ~tiwesdaeg so, one big txt file accessible via gemini?
2020-05-14 18:19:21 xq having a gemini server that serves these logs shoudn't be that hard
2020-05-14 18:19:27 ~tiwesdaeg or chop it up by day/month
2020-05-14 18:19:37 xq usually you host logs in a /year/month/day directory
2020-05-14 18:19:41 xq it's too much otherwise
2020-05-14 18:19:45 ~tiwesdaeg hmm
2020-05-14 18:20:07 ~tiwesdaeg can weechat store logs in that manner?
2020-05-14 18:20:45 @tomasino well, normally it's one big file
2020-05-14 18:20:45 ben you could point logrotate at weechat logs probably
2020-05-14 18:20:50 ben they're one big file though
2020-05-14 18:20:53 @tomasino but there's timestamps in there, so you could cron it
2020-05-14 18:21:05 @tomasino and break it up and generate stuff each night
2020-05-14 18:21:15 ben logrotate can do all that for you
2020-05-14 18:21:20 @tomasino oh nice
2020-05-14 18:21:24 @tomasino well logrotate++
2020-05-14 18:21:26 @tomasino :D
2020-05-14 18:21:43 @tomasino could be a nice time to learn that. I could run it on this box and then scp it over to ~black
2020-05-14 18:21:52 ben sure
2020-05-14 18:22:01 @tomasino or rsync or whatever
2020-05-14 18:22:41 @tomasino before i jump in and have a rando section in fox's page, anyone else feel like this is their new calling and want to do it instead?
2020-05-14 18:23:15 xq i wanted to try that as well
2020-05-14 18:23:23 xq based on my logger
2020-05-14 18:23:58 @tomasino have at it xq
2020-05-14 18:24:10 @tomasino lemme know if you hit a snag or get bored. :)
2020-05-14 18:25:15 xq yeah
2020-05-14 18:25:22 xq right now i still have to work on my client though
2020-05-14 18:25:29 xq trying to get it running with BearSSL
2020-05-14 18:28:09 xq <tiwesdaeg> what sets zig apart from other languages?
2020-05-14 18:29:00 xq It's a sane version of C, multiplatform as a true first-class use case, generics/templates are supported via arbitrary comptile time execution, no dependency on the C ecosystem, but near-100% compatibility
2020-05-14 18:30:59 ~tiwesdaeg I noticed it looked very familiar
2020-05-14 18:31:26 xq it's syntax is "quite" different though, even if it looks very familar at first glance
2020-05-14 18:31:51 xq what is also nice: there is *no* hidden control flow, you can recognize the control flow of any snippet at first glance
2020-05-14 18:32:56 xq it's really funny, i immediatly found some code smells in BearSSL because they store their key data as mutable strings instead of const ones
2020-05-14 18:42:07 ▬▬▶ rb100 has joined #gemini
2020-05-14 18:46:02 ▬▬▶ sloum has joined #gemini
2020-05-14 18:46:20 ▬▬▶ plugd has joined #gemini
2020-05-14 18:46:48 sloum Man, the mailing list has been blowing up today :)
2020-05-14 18:49:56 lucidiot has quit (Client exited)
2020-05-14 18:52:53 ~tiwesdaeg hey sloum!
2020-05-14 18:53:29 plugd not just the mailing list - some kind stranger just sent me a gemini-related patch for elpher, despite my having the most convoluted contribution system in history. A tiny thing, but I'm chuffed! :-) The slashdot/HN effect...
2020-05-14 18:55:00 xq It may correlate with my way to gemini:
2020-05-14 18:55:15 xq someone posted the link to Castor on hackernews and it was like place 3 for some hours
2020-05-14 18:55:20 sloum I have also been sent patch requests and the like. This level of activity is kind of exciting.
2020-05-14 18:55:24 xq so a lot of coverage
2020-05-14 18:55:55 sloum Yeah! I read through a lot of the comments on there. People seem to be digging it. Really cool.
2020-05-14 18:56:01 makeworld It's great!
2020-05-14 18:56:07 makeworld And yeah a lot of email today
2020-05-14 18:57:09 plugd It's a nice change from the first (?) time it appeared half a year ago or so, I remember the response then being a bit negative. I wonder what's changed?
2020-05-14 18:57:52 xq plugd: i feel that people are getting more and more fed up with the modern web, all this cookie compliance crap, javascript monsters, pages that serve 100 byte of text with 10 Megs of bloat
2020-05-14 18:58:02 makeworld plugd: Oh really, on HN or something?
2020-05-14 19:00:51 xq makeworld: i think it's enough if you answer your emails to the list :D
2020-05-14 19:01:04 xq otherwise solderpunk will receive it twice
2020-05-14 19:01:53 makeworld xq: Are you talking about the email I just sent, because I CC'ed solderpunk?
2020-05-14 19:02:02 makeworld I didn't meant to, I guess I hit reply all
2020-05-14 19:02:06 xq yep :D
2020-05-14 19:02:08 makeworld Also how did you know?
2020-05-14 19:02:21 xq i read emails, and you can see that you set a whole set of headers
2020-05-14 19:02:28 makeworld Oh ok
2020-05-14 19:02:29 xq if you use thunderbird, there's a nice "reply list" button now
2020-05-14 19:02:30 makeworld Whoops
2020-05-14 19:02:48 xq otherwise the headers of the (incoming) mail should be set right by mailman
2020-05-14 19:02:52 xq so you can just hit replace
2020-05-14 19:02:53 xq *reply
2020-05-14 19:03:05 xq oh, they aren't anymore :(
2020-05-14 19:07:30 plugd makeworld: ok, forget it - did a quick search and cant find any older HN post. Must have seen it somewhere else.
2020-05-14 19:07:57 makeworld Huh
2020-05-14 19:10:18 sloum Oh, sorry tiwesdaeg. missed your hello. Hi!
2020-05-14 19:14:38 ben does solderpunk do irc?
2020-05-14 19:14:42 @tomasino not often
2020-05-14 19:14:42 ben would be good to get him on here
2020-05-14 19:14:59 ben bummer
2020-05-14 19:15:05 @tomasino he's been on before... maybe not this server. Maybe SDF? i forget
2020-05-14 19:15:07 @tomasino it's rare
2020-05-14 19:15:36 @tomasino it's okay. it's like gopher. There's little micro communities. There's still that one on comp.infosystems.gopher on USENET that's truckin' along
2020-05-14 19:15:50 ben i still feel sometimes that people don't exist if they're not on irc
2020-05-14 19:15:54 @tomasino hah
2020-05-14 19:15:58 @tomasino that's cause this is your house!
2020-05-14 19:16:08 ben i rarely check anything else
2020-05-14 19:16:34 xq ben: i know this feel, IRC is really a nice place to be
2020-05-14 19:17:06 ben :)
2020-05-14 19:17:21 ben don't think i've seen you around before xq
2020-05-14 19:17:23 ben welcome!
2020-05-14 19:17:41 xq yeah, i joined earlier
2020-05-14 19:17:56 ben which tilde are you on?
2020-05-14 19:18:04 xq found gemini on HN yesterday and it looks cool
2020-05-14 19:18:15 ben ahh nice
2020-05-14 19:19:07 xq <ben> which tilde are you on?
2020-05-14 19:19:09 xq wdym? :D
2020-05-14 19:19:36 ben this irc network was created for the tildeverse (gopher/http tildeverse.org)
2020-05-14 19:20:28 @tomasino ahh yes, some folks finding there way here only know about gemini!
2020-05-14 19:20:35 xq i'm new to all of this :D
2020-05-14 19:20:35 @tomasino definitely check out tildeverse.org
2020-05-14 19:21:11 xq it feels really oldschool
2020-05-14 19:21:29 ben tilde.club is the original
2020-05-14 19:21:33 @tomasino we make everything new again
2020-05-14 19:21:35 ben i started tilde.team
2020-05-14 19:21:35 @tomasino :)
2020-05-14 19:21:37 ben etc
2020-05-14 19:21:44 @tomasino i run cosmic.voyage and tilde.black
2020-05-14 19:21:57 @tomasino #cosmic and #black in irc respectively
2020-05-14 19:22:06 xq so do i understand this right? each tilde is a server?
2020-05-14 19:22:11 @tomasino yep
2020-05-14 19:22:27 @tomasino individually run and operated and open to free shell accounts for whoever
2020-05-14 19:22:35 @tomasino micro communities for fun and learning
2020-05-14 19:22:43 @tomasino a ~ (home) on the internet
2020-05-14 19:22:44 xq sounds cool
2020-05-14 19:23:13 @tomasino team has a bajillion services to offer. tilde.town is an art community. cosmic.voyage is a collaborative sci-fi story-writing thing.
2020-05-14 19:23:16 @tomasino every one has their own flavor
2020-05-14 19:23:29 xq yeah grasped that already
2020-05-14 19:24:18 plugd xq: you're not alone, I'm another out-of-towner here due to gemini :-)
2020-05-14 19:24:25 xq heh
2020-05-14 19:24:44 ben well cool :)
2020-05-14 19:25:07 ⚡ xq learns a lot new these days
2020-05-14 19:25:13 xq i learnt that gemini exists
2020-05-14 19:25:17 @tomasino heh, yeah
2020-05-14 19:25:18 xq now i have to learn how to SSL
2020-05-14 19:25:32 xq and now i learnt that there are cool people doing stuff with *nixes
2020-05-14 19:25:32 ben lots of stuff out there :)
2020-05-14 19:26:04 @tomasino hop around and explore. most tildes are open to new users if you see something that catches your eye
2020-05-14 19:26:37 xq yeah, step by step :)
2020-05-14 19:26:48 xq i have too many projects anyways :D
2020-05-14 19:27:00 xq any tilde for HW/FPGA devs? :D
2020-05-14 19:27:36 @tomasino hrm, great question
2020-05-14 19:27:56 @tomasino not my wheelhouse, but ask in #meta and maybe someone can advise
2020-05-14 19:29:11 plugd solderpunk's a hardware nerd (see gopher://zaibatsu.circumlunar.space:70/1/~solderpunk/) so his tlide might be a place to start looking
2020-05-14 19:29:36 ⚡ tiwesdaeg waves from tilde.pink
2020-05-14 19:29:49 ~tiwesdaeg one post hole dug, hooray
2020-05-14 19:29:54 @tomasino i think circumlunar.space is pretty minimal
2020-05-14 19:29:57 @tomasino but who knows
2020-05-14 19:29:58 ~tiwesdaeg it feels like summer is finally here
2020-05-14 19:30:11 @tomasino there's always tilde.team and tilde.institute that offer a broad variety of things and big communities
2020-05-14 19:30:23 xq never used gopher before :D
2020-05-14 19:30:27 xq what are good clients?
2020-05-14 19:30:28 cmccabe i always like to point out that tildes are just one form of a broader category called public access unix systems, or pubnixes. not all pubnixes (like zaibatsu) are tildes
2020-05-14 19:30:32 @tomasino lynx is the easiest, xq
2020-05-14 19:30:44 @tomasino but vf1, bombodillo, and castor can be good too
2020-05-14 19:30:48 @tomasino you may have castor for gemini already
2020-05-14 19:31:54 xq ah
2020-05-14 19:31:59 xq gemini definitly is very minimal :D
2020-05-14 19:32:05 @tomasino heh, yeah
2020-05-14 19:32:09 @tomasino gopher is my happy place though
2020-05-14 19:32:13 @tomasino #gopher here
2020-05-14 19:33:44 xq damn, you all are distracting me! :D
2020-05-14 19:33:50 @tomasino haha
2020-05-14 19:33:54 xq i should stop reading and get back to my certificate stuff
2020-05-14 19:33:54 @tomasino we're good at that
2020-05-14 19:33:55 ~tiwesdaeg many rabbit holes
2020-05-14 19:34:03 xq tomasino: good! :)
2020-05-14 19:34:15 @tomasino if you do want to try out gopher, tilde.pink is a great little place to start
2020-05-14 19:34:54 ~tiwesdaeg we use geomyidae for gopherd
2020-05-14 19:35:19 ~tiwesdaeg nice easy to read link syntax and very flexible with cgi
2020-05-14 19:35:37 plugd has quit (Ping timeout: 120 seconds)
2020-05-14 19:36:02 @tomasino very friendly indeed for new gopherites
2020-05-14 19:36:23 @tomasino even if tilde.pink is only 73% as cool as tilde.black. just sayin'....
2020-05-14 19:36:25 @tomasino :P
2020-05-14 19:36:42 ~tiwesdaeg ;P
2020-05-14 19:36:57 @tomasino but on black we run motsognir, which is like gopher in hard-mode.
2020-05-14 19:37:04 @tomasino so yeah, pink!
2020-05-14 19:37:16 ~tiwesdaeg must write raw gophermap from memory!
2020-05-14 19:37:22 @tomasino pretty much!
2020-05-14 19:37:22 ~tiwesdaeg it's like tar commands
2020-05-14 19:37:26 @tomasino haha
2020-05-14 19:37:44 @tomasino i wonder if i could make a suicide-linux style tilde. Not that deletes the whole system, just the user's account on error
2020-05-14 19:38:10 ~tiwesdaeg probably pretty simple
2020-05-14 19:38:15 @tomasino yeah
2020-05-14 19:38:23 @tomasino hmmmm
2020-05-14 19:38:27 ⚡ tomasino wastes time
2020-05-14 19:38:33 ~tiwesdaeg restrict to one shell
2020-05-14 19:38:50 ~tiwesdaeg I'm not sure what part of the shell responds with command not found or whatever
2020-05-14 19:39:06 ▬▬▶ plugd has joined #gemini
2020-05-14 19:39:15 ~tiwesdaeg just have it triggered to like rm -r ~/*
2020-05-14 19:39:47 ~tiwesdaeg and to terminate the ssh connection
2020-05-14 19:40:29 ~tiwesdaeg then have a script that looks for empty user directories and cleans up everything
2020-05-14 19:40:38 plugd cmccabe: ah yes, sorry, s/tilde/pubnix/
2020-05-14 19:41:00 xq tiwesdaeg: drop connection, replace user shell with /bin/nologin
2020-05-14 19:41:00 @tomasino yeah, you could trap errors and handle it that way. limiting the shell choice would be a big part of it
2020-05-14 19:41:14 @tomasino and of course you need to make sure it's using dash for extra hard-mode
2020-05-14 19:41:48 @tomasino no worries plugd. the distinction gets tricky even for tilde admins sometimes
2020-05-14 19:43:43 ~tiwesdaeg most of us allow key only login anyway
2020-05-14 19:44:09 ~tiwesdaeg I don't even bother generating a user passwd unless a user requests it, for something like chsh
2020-05-14 19:44:27 @tomasino hmmm, good point
2020-05-14 19:45:06 ~tiwesdaeg technically I am running imap now, but I'm pretty sure it's not in large demand
2020-05-14 19:46:04 @tomasino oh, i need to mess with my postfix soon
2020-05-14 19:46:29 @tomasino i have cosmic locked from sending out emails except to other tildes and pubnix, but the list has grown since i set it up. Need to add a lot more destinations
2020-05-14 19:50:05 xq the gemini web is called gemspace?
2020-05-14 19:53:07 ▬▬▶ exprez135 has joined #gemini
2020-05-14 19:55:02 cmccabe probably. i haven't heard a consensus yet
2020-05-14 19:55:15 cmccabe maybe the gemnosphere or
2020-05-14 19:56:01 ~tiwesdaeg we can't even agree on things like a gemini log, gemlog glog or .gmi .gem .gemini
2020-05-14 19:56:23 ~tiwesdaeg gemhoard
2020-05-14 19:56:41 ~tiwesdaeg constellation
2020-05-14 19:56:53 xq gempile?
2020-05-14 19:56:55 cmccabe gemboree
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2020-05-14 19:57:09 ~tiwesdaeg gemiverse
2020-05-14 19:57:16 @tomasino i thought gemlog got ratified after solderpunk checked with gemlog on mastodon
2020-05-14 19:57:57 ~tiwesdaeg well, it's my preferred abbreviation
2020-05-14 19:58:21 ~tiwesdaeg I still see glog around the gemosphere
2020-05-14 19:58:49 @tomasino glog is still used on gopher in places
2020-05-14 19:58:53 @tomasino so it's confusing in gemini
2020-05-14 19:58:56 cmccabe maintaining a gemlog is referred to as doing gemnastics
2020-05-14 20:01:02 ~tiwesdaeg I've also seen mlog
2020-05-14 20:01:29 ~tiwesdaeg gemtastic gemnastics
2020-05-14 20:01:35 ~tiwesdaeg ok, back to sweating outside
2020-05-14 20:39:31 xq ssl initialized.
2020-05-14 20:39:31 xq socket connected to 168.235.111.58:1965.
2020-05-14 20:39:31 xq ssl connection established.
2020-05-14 20:39:31 xq 20 text/gemini
2020-05-14 20:39:35 xq ha, this feels good
2020-05-14 20:39:41 xq a lot better than yesterday
2020-05-14 20:40:43 xq makeworld: thanks for hinting me BearSSL!
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2020-05-14 20:41:59 plugd xq: if you just noticed a spurious connection, that was me being nosey :-)
2020-05-14 20:42:20 xq huh, where did you connect to?
2020-05-14 20:42:53 plugd xq: gemini://168.235.111.58/
2020-05-14 20:43:34 xq you may have noticed that this is actually solderpunks IP :D
2020-05-14 20:43:43 xq i don't have a gemini service running yet
2020-05-14 20:44:36 plugd doh - no wonder I got a 53 response :-)
2020-05-14 20:44:55 xq i'm still writing the client
2020-05-14 20:45:03 xq and now i'm happy to have chosen BearSSL
2020-05-14 20:45:09 xq it's much more code to write
2020-05-14 20:45:11 plugd (wasn't following the conversation and thought you were writing a server)
2020-05-14 20:45:24 xq but i start to understand all that SSL stuff one day anyways
2020-05-14 20:46:48 xq and: gemini server will be next after the client
2020-05-14 20:47:26 plugd xq: that's the exact same path I took about a year ago with gopher
2020-05-14 20:49:49 plugd (actually this whole side of the internet is playing absolute and glorious havoc with my already-severe not-invented-here syndrome...)
2020-05-14 20:50:09 xq haha
2020-05-14 20:50:12 xq i can imagine!
2020-05-14 20:53:08 xq since i joined Zig community, i have this too
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2020-05-14 20:53:36 xq zig is like a fresh breeze in software development, doing everything from ground up, with all the lessons learned and atm without the fear of breaking code
2020-05-14 20:53:48 xq just break everything until 1.0
2020-05-14 20:54:28 plugd I'll have to check it out, honestly this is the first I've heard of it.
2020-05-14 20:55:08 xq yeah, do that!
2020-05-14 20:55:22 xq andrew (BDFL) will start a stream in an hour on twitch
2020-05-14 20:55:32 xq talking and coding on the new self-hosted backend
2020-05-14 20:56:59 xq it's a good thing to get a grasp of the community and the style of the language
2020-05-14 20:57:05 xq *chance
2020-05-14 21:06:41 plugd thanks for the heads-up!
2020-05-14 21:06:57 acdw is there a link for the twitch stream?
2020-05-14 21:07:54 xq https://www.twitch.tv/andrewrok/
2020-05-14 21:10:42 acdw TY!
2020-05-14 21:11:35 xq you're welcome
2020-05-14 21:11:42 ⚡ xq is happy to spread the zen of zig
2020-05-14 21:20:50 login zig being?
2020-05-14 21:21:29 login the culmination and saviour of software?
2020-05-14 21:22:00 login scriptable and fast and memory safe and no garbage collection and real-time and
2020-05-14 21:22:25 login compiling to llvm
2020-05-14 21:22:57 login and completely bootstrappable?
2020-05-14 21:25:09 xq fast: yes
2020-05-14 21:25:13 xq memory safe: no
2020-05-14 21:25:18 xq garbage collection: no
2020-05-14 21:25:22 xq real-time: depends on your skills
2020-05-14 21:25:25 xq llvm: yes
2020-05-14 21:25:34 xq bootstrappable: nah, not even self-hosting
2020-05-14 21:26:02 xq well, you can bootstrap zig with zig atm, but not the self-hosting compiler
2020-05-14 21:33:48 @tomasino julienxx: can i change font sizes in castor?
2020-05-14 21:35:34 plugd 'night all, nice to meet you
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2020-05-14 21:38:13 sloum @tomasino, I think I remember julien mentioning that at the moment it is handled by some kind of system level gtk config
2020-05-14 21:38:46 @tomasino ahh
2020-05-14 21:38:49 @tomasino hi sloum
2020-05-14 21:38:53 @tomasino gotta check out your aggregator!
2020-05-14 21:38:58 acdw hey do yall know how to generate an atom feed from my gemblog and get it listed in the CAPCOM on circumlunar.space?
2020-05-14 21:38:58 sloum Hi :) How are things in iceland?
2020-05-14 21:39:03 @tomasino i'll eventually ask for fox@~black to get added, but i don't have much up yet
2020-05-14 21:39:04 acdw speaking of aggregator lol
2020-05-14 21:39:10 @tomasino things here are quite lovely
2020-05-14 21:39:11 @tomasino thanks!
2020-05-14 21:39:15 sloum Please do! Do you have gemini content up? If so, I'll have to add it to spacewalk.
2020-05-14 21:39:24 @tomasino i have 2 posts up
2020-05-14 21:39:28 sloum I was there a few years back. Really really lvoed it.
2020-05-14 21:39:34 @tomasino gemini://tilde.black/users/fox/ is the root
2020-05-14 21:39:40 @tomasino i don't have a dedicated journal page yet
2020-05-14 21:39:43 @tomasino but i'd link to root
2020-05-14 21:39:52 @tomasino i'm gonna keep the latest 5 or 10 posts on there
2020-05-14 21:40:00 sloum Cool. Will do.
2020-05-14 21:40:01 @tomasino it'll be nice if i add non-journal stuff too
2020-05-14 21:40:31 @tomasino come again! we open for visitors june 15th
2020-05-14 21:40:43 sloum The day after my birthday.
2020-05-14 21:40:50 @tomasino you can either come and go into quarantine for 2 weeks, or get tested for covid at the airport, or bring documentation from abroad that you're healthy
2020-05-14 21:41:02 @tomasino :D
2020-05-14 21:41:18 @tomasino if any of you ever come through iceland i expect a heads up so we can get a kaffi
2020-05-14 21:41:20 sloum I'd love to. It would be nice to see some of the parts north of Reykjavik. We mostly stuck to the ring road and the city.
2020-05-14 21:41:32 @tomasino ring road + city is a fantastic first trip
2020-05-14 21:41:40 @tomasino i'd recommend the southern coast as well
2020-05-14 21:42:16 @tomasino we're heading up to the north for the beginning of july
2020-05-14 21:42:30 @tomasino haven't decided if we're driving up or flying yet. still working on details
2020-05-14 21:42:43 @tomasino trying to travel and spend money domestically this summer to help get things moving economically
2020-05-14 21:42:50 sloum Awesome. You should .log about it once you do ;)
2020-05-14 21:42:56 @tomasino the gov here is giving everyone $500 to spend on domestic summer travel
2020-05-14 21:42:59 @tomasino i should!
2020-05-14 21:43:04 sloum I'm sure I'm not the only one that would enjoy reading about gorgeous palces after being stuck inside for so long
2020-05-14 21:43:12 sloum Aw, that is nice.
2020-05-14 21:43:18 @tomasino my big problem is i don't know what i want to write about on gemini that i don't already write about on gopher
2020-05-14 21:43:27 @tomasino and most of my iceland stuff i write on my blog so my family can read it
2020-05-14 21:43:28 sloum That has been my problem as well.
2020-05-14 21:43:32 @tomasino https://blog.tomasino.org
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2020-05-14 21:43:55 @tomasino if i had weed i'd join brool & smore and make a stoned.txt
2020-05-14 21:44:08 sloum lol, no weed in Iceland?
2020-05-14 21:44:16 @tomasino oh, there's plenty here, i just don't have a connection
2020-05-14 21:44:17 @tomasino heh
2020-05-14 21:44:34 @tomasino i got rid of my vape and everything when we moved
2020-05-14 21:44:40 sloum The only other person I know there is a friends grandmother. not sure that she'd be able to hook you up.
2020-05-14 21:44:48 @tomasino you never know!
2020-05-14 21:44:49 @tomasino ;)
2020-05-14 21:45:05 @tomasino i'm pretty close to a bunch of MPs now
2020-05-14 21:45:07 @tomasino pirate party
2020-05-14 21:45:13 @tomasino i can probably get a hook up through them
2020-05-14 21:45:13 @tomasino hah
2020-05-14 21:45:27 @tomasino nah, they're cool people though
2020-05-14 21:45:30 sloum Very true. Said grandmother is fond of complaining about the water. It used to be more sulfery and she complains "its terrible what they've done to the water, you cant even smell it anymore!"
2020-05-14 21:45:41 @tomasino haha
2020-05-14 21:45:50 @tomasino they do filter out the sulfer in some areas
2020-05-14 21:45:53 @tomasino no smell
2020-05-14 21:45:54 sloum She also refers to the errosion fighting trees as eyesores.
2020-05-14 21:45:56 @tomasino but still amazing
2020-05-14 21:46:02 @tomasino that's amazing
2020-05-14 21:46:15 @tomasino she sounds like a character
2020-05-14 21:46:19 sloum Totally.
2020-05-14 21:46:26 sloum You've been there a year or two now right?
2020-05-14 21:46:51 sloum Have you been there for airwaves?
2020-05-14 21:47:52 @tomasino 1 year july 1st
2020-05-14 21:48:00 @tomasino yep, was here for airwaves last fall
2020-05-14 21:48:07 @tomasino i saw one show off the main strip
2020-05-14 21:48:30 @tomasino still have a young one at home so it's kinda hard to tell my wife, "see ya! i'm gonna go party for a couple days. have fun!"
2020-05-14 21:48:44 sloum Cool. It is quite a thing to walk downtowna nd all the bookstores, clothing stores, everything seem to ahve music coming out of them.
2020-05-14 21:49:00 sloum Yeah. I get that (11m old at home right now)
2020-05-14 21:49:05 @tomasino i really like our little city. i go downtown once a month or so
2020-05-14 21:49:17 @tomasino i'm about as far out as the capital region busses go
2020-05-14 21:49:51 ⚡ xq plays stream notification for acdw
2020-05-14 21:49:57 acdw :)
2020-05-14 21:49:59 acdw yo
2020-05-14 21:50:07 sloum Sounds nice too. Out of the hustle and bustle (such that it is).
2020-05-14 21:50:28 @tomasino yeah
2020-05-14 21:50:44 @tomasino we're in the mountains a bit. i walk outside and a block away and i'm into trails
2020-05-14 21:53:26 sloum That is what my wife and I are hoping to find her ein the states. We have been looking into Oregon and Washington. With luck we'll find something nice that fits what we want (at least an acre with some space to grow some food and some nearby woods or trails).
2020-05-14 21:56:01 @tomasino you're looking in the right area
2020-05-14 21:56:12 @tomasino technically utah too, but then you have mormons
2020-05-14 22:01:25 sloum ha, I'm in southern california now so it could be argued I have scientologists (who do indeed have a heavily surveiled building not far from where I live).
2020-05-14 22:02:08 @tomasino oh, that's ... yeah
2020-05-14 22:02:10 @tomasino go away from that
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2020-05-14 22:08:57 @julienxx Hey sloum!
2020-05-14 22:09:31 ⚡ tomasino high fives julienxx
2020-05-14 22:09:36 @julienxx tomasino: if you want to change the font size this will only be through GTK global settings for now
2020-05-14 22:09:48 @tomasino okay
2020-05-14 22:09:51 @tomasino i'll squint and lean in
2020-05-14 22:09:55 ⚡ tomasino has terrible eye sight
2020-05-14 22:12:44 @julienxx Somebody posted the solution somewhere, just have to remember where ^^
2020-05-14 22:13:30 @julienxx Ah here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23170728
2020-05-14 22:13:58 @julienxx But I intend to provide a setting someday :)
2020-05-14 22:14:46 @tomasino ahha
2020-05-14 22:14:49 @tomasino setting++
2020-05-14 22:38:54 sloum Hi julienxx!
2020-05-14 22:39:16 sloum Nah, I had to squint and lean in on that one too, lol.
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2020-05-15 02:51:17 makeworld I just realized it wouldn't be that hard to hack Gemini for live streaming data
2020-05-15 02:51:32 makeworld Just have the body response never stop ;)
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2020-05-15 05:25:21 epoch that's pretty much how ice-cast works.
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2020-05-15 08:34:27 @tomasino same trick works on gopher too
2020-05-15 08:34:44 @tomasino have a friend that made a gopher video stream the other day for giggles. works great
2020-05-15 08:36:59 @julienxx good morning
2020-05-15 08:39:11 @tomasino hiya julienxx
2020-05-15 08:40:36 @julienxx gemini with video could be nice
2020-05-15 08:41:03 @tomasino konpeito is sure to do something of the sort eventually
2020-05-15 08:41:04 @tomasino :)
2020-05-15 08:41:13 @tomasino have you checked out baud.vision?
2020-05-15 08:41:43 @tomasino julien is in the irc chan, but for the rest of you: http://baud.vision:21225/vcr
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2020-05-15 08:43:18 @julienxx yes I was thinking about a gemini://baud.vision :)
2020-05-15 08:44:54 jan6 lol what is that
2020-05-15 08:45:26 @tomasino another of cat's amazing art projects
2020-05-15 08:45:38 @tomasino basically streaming lowfi archive.org video content
2020-05-15 08:45:41 @julienxx gopher://baud.vision
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2020-05-15 10:06:23 ⚡ cat takes a bow
2020-05-15 10:10:47 cat i need to mirror the baud.vision jnfo
2020-05-15 10:10:54 cat *info on gemini too
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2020-05-15 10:38:10 @tomasino hiya cat!
2020-05-15 10:38:16 @tomasino how's it going?
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2020-05-15 11:25:02 cat going ok, busy busy
2020-05-15 11:25:10 cat hows things with you?
2020-05-15 11:43:42 ⚡ southerntofu heard there's now a gemini server on rawtext.club :)
2020-05-15 12:09:10 @julienxx muchos servidores
2020-05-15 12:20:01 @tomasino stuff here is good. Feeling energetic today
2020-05-15 12:20:12 @tomasino lots of work coming, but none in hand
2020-05-15 12:28:27 @julienxx will cosmic.voyage have a Gemini presence someday?
2020-05-15 12:31:04 @tomasino oh yes
2020-05-15 12:31:06 @tomasino most definitely
2020-05-15 12:31:29 @tomasino since gopher is the canonical format it's relatively trivial to generate gemini files
2020-05-15 12:32:19 @tomasino Maybe i'll do that in a little bit today
2020-05-15 12:32:25 @tomasino i need to eat something and get cleaned up
2020-05-15 12:33:54 @tomasino regarding my recent post on the mailing list about serving the text/markdown mime type, i didn't want to spell it out there too much, but really, you could pretty much ignore the gemini filetype stuff and just serve html files over gemini and render it browser-like
2020-05-15 12:34:04 @tomasino the only difference then would be headers
2020-05-15 12:34:28 xq tomasino: even that would be a benefit
2020-05-15 12:34:29 @tomasino if you parse html and pull the other resources, images, scripts, and styles, with their appropriate mimes, you could just make the web
2020-05-15 12:34:40 xq as you could serve "modern web", but it would remove a lot of tracking surface
2020-05-15 12:35:09 @tomasino well, most of the tracking service is in JS, so that really wouldn't change much if it's reporting back to an HTTP source, but to some degree it could work
2020-05-15 12:35:23 @tomasino if your gemini client ignores http(s?):// completely, then yeah
2020-05-15 12:35:32 @tomasino you could pretty much carve out the nasty bits of the web
2020-05-15 12:35:40 xq yep
2020-05-15 12:35:47 @tomasino i don't want to give people ideas, though.
2020-05-15 12:35:49 @tomasino not this early
2020-05-15 12:35:50 xq but a markdown renderer would be beautiful as well
2020-05-15 12:35:55 jan6 why not ideas
2020-05-15 12:36:04 xq maybe even with client-side styling
2020-05-15 12:36:08 xq (client-side only)
2020-05-15 12:36:15 @tomasino a markdown renderer is, i suspect, inevitable. I also suspect it could easily overtake the .gmi format as the default document type
2020-05-15 12:36:20 xq would mean you can chose how a site looks, but the site could serve more complex content anyways
2020-05-15 12:37:33 jan6 you can just require (x)html5 and css3, and that would mean you can forget about most of the crap needed for normal browser engines, also no need for all the fancy browser APIs since no javascript
2020-05-15 12:37:40 jan6 styling is GREAT
2020-05-15 12:37:53 @tomasino jan6: there's a lot of people eager to dive into gemini right now and build something. If they start going off building a "new web" with html and crap, it could disrupt the great momentum that's moving forward. One day I expect we'll see it regardless, but I don't want to be the one that starts that fire
2020-05-15 12:38:01 jan6 gemini format is nicer than markdown, imho
2020-05-15 12:38:05 jan6 it's a LOT easier to parse
2020-05-15 12:38:10 @tomasino i agree
2020-05-15 12:38:24 xq yep
2020-05-15 12:38:26 jan6 no bold or italic or images or such tho
2020-05-15 12:38:30 xq commonmark is a hell of a syntax
2020-05-15 12:38:35 @tomasino but the protocol allows other mime types so there's nothing stopping a client dev from just using an off the shelf markdown parser and saying "DONE!"
2020-05-15 12:38:45 jan6 sure
2020-05-15 12:38:59 jan6 tbh would be great if there was an alternative to markdown
2020-05-15 12:39:07 @tomasino there are several alternatives
2020-05-15 12:39:20 jan6 something that doesn't require complex parsers and such
2020-05-15 12:39:35 xq yeah
2020-05-15 12:39:41 @tomasino if you don't want a parser, then just .txt
2020-05-15 12:39:41 xq commonmark is pretty complex, sadly
2020-05-15 12:39:44 xq they allow *too* much
2020-05-15 12:39:51 @tomasino but commonmark, asciidoc, there are other small formats
2020-05-15 12:39:55 jan6 like gemini you can just check "line starts with =>, next field is url, after that take the text and display"
2020-05-15 12:40:03 @tomasino i'd love to see a client parse troff
2020-05-15 12:40:10 @tomasino or, ooooh, latex
2020-05-15 12:40:13 jan6 no need to check "is this nested" or "was there another formatting character before it"
2020-05-15 12:40:17 jan6 lol
2020-05-15 12:40:30 xq just serve postscript
2020-05-15 12:40:33 @tomasino .gmi is remarkably simple and fits the heart of gemini's purpose
2020-05-15 12:40:50 @tomasino i hope it stays dominant, but there's really nothing stopping another type from dominating instead
2020-05-15 12:40:53 jan6 I'd like something to bold and italic, and it'd be great
2020-05-15 12:41:06 jan6 and yeah, hopefully it stays in the top tier
2020-05-15 12:41:11 xq heh
2020-05-15 12:41:18 xq i like geminis simplicity
2020-05-15 12:41:26 xq but the TLS stuff is making it much more complicated
2020-05-15 12:41:29 jan6 ^
2020-05-15 12:41:31 jan6 that too
2020-05-15 12:41:37 @tomasino that's why i haven't written a client or server
2020-05-15 12:41:39 xq otherwise i would already be tempted to implement a gemini client on a microcontroller :D
2020-05-15 12:41:55 jan6 tomasino: making a client is easy, I did it in shell scripts, twice ;P
2020-05-15 12:41:55 @tomasino i have not the first clue how to use a system library in code
2020-05-15 12:42:01 jan6 "kinda" did it
2020-05-15 12:42:11 jan6 a kind of gemini-curl like thingy
2020-05-15 12:42:20 xq a client can be done with the openssl-cli tool :D
2020-05-15 12:42:21 @tomasino yep
2020-05-15 12:42:22 @tomasino it was nice
2020-05-15 12:42:29 xq openssl s_client --connect server.host
2020-05-15 12:42:31 jan6 if only "dialog" wasn't such a pain, I'd already have finished the second iteration
2020-05-15 12:42:44 jan6 which is a lot better
2020-05-15 12:42:58 @tomasino if it were a different thing instead of TLS i'd have the same problem
2020-05-15 12:43:02 jan6 printf 'gemini://konpeito.media/index-mild.gmi\r\n' | openssl s_client -connect konpeito.media:1965 -quiet -verify_quiet
2020-05-15 12:43:05 jan6 is all you need
2020-05-15 12:43:07 @tomasino my coding background doesn't go to that sort of stuff
2020-05-15 12:43:33 @tomasino once i'm getting input and parsing and handling it, fine. i can do some magic there
2020-05-15 12:44:05 jan6 someone who knows C, should look into how to do this stuff with BearSSL, imho, it supports up to TLS 1.2, but that should be enough
2020-05-15 12:44:26 @tomasino i think a bearssl client and/or server just got annonuced on the mailing list
2020-05-15 12:44:31 jan6 huh
2020-05-15 12:44:31 @tomasino isn't makeworld using it?
2020-05-15 12:44:34 jan6 idk where the list is
2020-05-15 12:44:39 @tomasino the mailing list?
2020-05-15 12:44:44 jan6 ye
2020-05-15 12:44:51 ▬▬▶ sloum has joined #gemini
2020-05-15 12:45:05 @tomasino ttps://lists.orbitalfox.eu/listinfo/gemini
2020-05-15 12:45:05 ⚡ xq waves at tomasino
2020-05-15 12:45:09 @tomasino add an h
2020-05-15 12:45:10 jan6 also edit the topic, there is a http version of the gemini site, which is often a single click away
2020-05-15 12:45:25 @tomasino okay, i'll add the http version too
2020-05-15 12:45:26 @tomasino :P
2020-05-15 12:45:42 @tomasino hiy xq - were you the bearssl client/server coder?
2020-05-15 12:45:50 @tomasino so many new faces, hard to keep everyone straight
2020-05-15 12:45:51 jan6 a bit silly to have "to use gemini, use gemii to look up gemini info"
2020-05-15 12:45:53 ~tiwesdaeg burn it down tomasino
2020-05-15 12:45:56 jan6 lol
2020-05-15 12:46:23 xq i'm coding on a bearssl client atm
2020-05-15 12:46:42 xq server will probably follow D
2020-05-15 12:46:45 ⚡ tiwesdaeg is sipping tea and compiling
2020-05-15 12:47:02 ℹ tomasino has changed topic for #gemini from "Gemini (protocol) enthusiasts - gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/" to "Gemini (protocol) enthusiasts - gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | https://gemini.circumlunar.space/"
2020-05-15 12:47:15 ~tiwesdaeg might be shifting tilde.pink to gemserv today
2020-05-15 12:47:27 ℹ tomasino has changed topic for #gemini from "Gemini (protocol) enthusiasts - gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | https://gemini.circumlunar.space/" to "Gemini (protocol) enthusiasts - gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | https://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | gopher://gemini.circumlunar.space/"
2020-05-15 12:47:43 jan6 great
2020-05-15 12:47:52 @tomasino oh fun
2020-05-15 12:48:09 ~tiwesdaeg there really should be a client list on http and gopher, like ben was complaining about yesterday
2020-05-15 12:48:32 @tomasino yep, i think solderpunk made mention of that recently
2020-05-15 12:48:39 @tomasino he needs to equally share the love between all 3 sites
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2020-05-15 12:49:10 @tomasino tiwesdaeg: have you thought about forking geomyidae and adding gemini support?
2020-05-15 12:49:11 ~tiwesdaeg it makes I do like how gemserv's main page is gemini
2020-05-15 12:49:33 ~tiwesdaeg tomasino: I am not very c compatible
2020-05-15 12:49:39 @tomasino fair fair
2020-05-15 12:49:55 jan6 I'd have made a proper client in C if I had any clue
2020-05-15 12:49:58 ~tiwesdaeg and I really don't want to have to talk to 20h about how it all works
2020-05-15 12:50:07 ~tiwesdaeg that guy is toxic
2020-05-15 12:50:07 @tomasino yeah
2020-05-15 12:50:12 @tomasino the whole community is
2020-05-15 12:50:16 @tomasino except solene
2020-05-15 12:50:16 jan6 what
2020-05-15 12:50:23 ~tiwesdaeg except solene and leot
2020-05-15 12:50:31 @tomasino we should import them
2020-05-15 12:50:32 @tomasino :)
2020-05-15 12:50:32 ~tiwesdaeg they were always helpful
2020-05-15 12:51:02 ~tiwesdaeg can we clone them on the tildeverse with git?
2020-05-15 12:51:42 @tomasino solene would probably want us to use drist
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2020-05-15 12:52:09 jan6 "we should import them" lol
2020-05-15 12:52:19 jan6 oh wow, people are popping in today
2020-05-15 12:52:20 @tomasino which i should really eye up again now that i changed my dotfile structure. It could work well
2020-05-15 12:55:57 ~tiwesdaeg awww, build failed on netbsd
2020-05-15 12:56:03 ⚡ tiwesdaeg goes to search errors
2020-05-15 12:56:45 @tomasino blerg
2020-05-15 13:01:59 @julienxx Anybody knows a good IRC client on iOS by any chance?
2020-05-15 13:03:10 @tomasino cl....something
2020-05-15 13:03:18 ~tiwesdaeg I only use ios for work, and I barely use it at that
2020-05-15 13:03:20 @tomasino clementine? or was that music? coliopy?
2020-05-15 13:03:30 @tomasino something like that. It's cute
2020-05-15 13:03:30 ~tiwesdaeg they make us use blackberry software
2020-05-15 13:03:32 ~tiwesdaeg the worst
2020-05-15 13:03:35 @tomasino oh jeez
2020-05-15 13:03:46 ~tiwesdaeg coloquoy?
2020-05-15 13:03:47 @tomasino oh wait, ios... that's osx
2020-05-15 13:03:49 @julienxx I use Colloqui but maybe there is something better
2020-05-15 13:03:51 ~tiwesdaeg some weird word like that
2020-05-15 13:04:01 @tomasino so, dunno
2020-05-15 13:04:28 ~tiwesdaeg so, clean install of rustup stable on netbsd
2020-05-15 13:04:39 ~tiwesdaeg I think it's something to do with openssl
2020-05-15 13:04:44 @tomasino ahha
2020-05-15 13:05:15 ~tiwesdaeg I tried to install the openssl package, but that didn't work and there are no rust specific openssl packages
2020-05-15 13:07:23 ~tiwesdaeg julienxx: https://github.com/lindskogen/weechatRN
2020-05-15 13:07:29 ~tiwesdaeg it's not that stale
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2020-05-15 15:37:31 @julienxx cmccabe on gemini://rawtext.club/social_contract.gmi it would be nice to have gemini links at the end, what do you think?
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2020-05-15 15:40:19 cmccabe julienxx: agreed! i don't know how to make a gemini link yet, so give me a bit to figure it out. :)
2020-05-15 15:40:39 cmccabe is it like markdown link syntax?
2020-05-15 15:41:35 @julienxx It’s `=> url description` with description being optional
2020-05-15 15:47:15 cmccabe fixed. those links don't work in bombadillo, so i should probably find a suitable alternative. but that's another story
2020-05-15 15:51:05 @julienxx nice!
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2020-05-15 16:07:07 @tomasino i hear castor is nice. ;)
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2020-05-15 16:21:27 @julienxx cmccabe there is a setting in bombadillo to open http links `:set openhttp true`
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2020-05-15 17:10:58 makeworld tomasino: jan6: I don't use bearssl or C, no. I just heard about the project and thought it might be a good fit for some people
2020-05-15 17:11:05 makeworld The mailing list has been so busy
2020-05-15 17:11:18 makeworld Lots more servers!
2020-05-15 17:11:36 jan6 lotsa
2020-05-15 17:11:41 jan6 lodza
2020-05-15 17:12:07 @tomasino pizza
2020-05-15 17:12:48 jan6 fizzy
2020-05-15 17:20:46 makeworld Exactly
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2020-05-15 19:34:37 jackdoe hi, not sure where the best place to post this is, i just pushed https://github.com/jackdoe/net-gemini and also added support for gemini on gemini://berserk.red [its just for me and my friends to talk(1)], but anyway thanks for making such nice spec! TOFU works great!
2020-05-15 19:38:50 @tomasino fantastic!
2020-05-15 19:41:30 @tomasino quite the minimal setup, but i like that you're offering stuff to people
2020-05-15 19:41:39 @tomasino chroot is an interesting move
2020-05-15 19:43:07 jackdoe i did the net-gemini in this way so other people can just embed it and then serve dynamic content without cgi (due to go limitation)
2020-05-15 19:43:29 jackdoe go setuid limitation i mean
2020-05-15 19:44:56 jackdoe tomasino: i am not sure about the chroot tbh, i just wanted to see how far i can go without modern containers, but i think i will move to runc soon
2020-05-15 20:01:12 cmccabe thanks julienxx. i will try that
2020-05-15 20:07:52 ~tiwesdaeg woo, got gemserv to build on tilde.pink
2020-05-15 20:08:06 @tomasino huzzah!
2020-05-15 20:08:19 ~tiwesdaeg had to set an environment variable to point at the openssl install
2020-05-15 20:08:28 ~tiwesdaeg netbsd is weird and all packages go in /usr/pkg
2020-05-15 20:08:50 ~tiwesdaeg after it compiled, it still complained about missing libs
2020-05-15 20:09:14 ~tiwesdaeg so I had to make symbolic links
2020-05-15 20:10:23 ~tiwesdaeg tomasino: I test user directories and they are working perfectly with gemserv
2020-05-15 20:10:30 ~tiwesdaeg I deleted all my symbolic links
2020-05-15 20:12:49 @tomasino brilliant!
2020-05-15 20:18:00 ~tiwesdaeg I'm guessing it would build fine on openbsd
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2020-05-15 20:51:30 @tomasino most likely
2020-05-15 20:51:42 @tomasino i'll put a note on it
2020-05-15 21:17:39 makeworld jackdoe: You're offline now but have you seen https://git.sr.ht/~yotam/go-gemini ?
2020-05-15 21:18:05 makeworld It's a golang library for gemini, I've been working on my fork for it that will update and improve it
2020-05-15 21:18:14 makeworld Might be helpful to double check with your code
2020-05-15 21:18:39 makeworld The mailing list momentum shows no sign of stopping.... :)
2020-05-15 21:29:02 @julienxx OS News posted about Castor https://www.osnews.com/story/131791/castor-a-browser-for-the-small-internet-gemini-gopher-finger/ the comments are something ^^
2020-05-15 21:35:34 ~tiwesdaeg I feel like the number of gemini servers has gone exponential
2020-05-15 21:35:56 ~tiwesdaeg and yay for castor news!
2020-05-15 21:37:46 ~tiwesdaeg the comments feel like reading youtube comments
2020-05-15 21:41:53 makeworld Yeah lol
2020-05-15 21:47:19 ~tiwesdaeg I mean, to their credit, pretentious is a pretty big word that 95% of youtube commenters wouldn't know
2020-05-15 22:01:19 makeworld On the other hand, what a stunning article, a whole two sentences
2020-05-15 22:01:28 makeworld Now tHat's quality journalism
2020-05-15 22:27:20 xq interesting topic about inline links
2020-05-15 22:27:40 xq for a httpweb-user, inline links are status quo and i'm used to that
2020-05-15 22:29:53 xq also: comments on that article above are … gross
2020-05-15 22:48:01 @tomasino yeah, looooong, looooong discussions on that front in the mailing list
2020-05-15 22:48:21 xq well, it's a thing
2020-05-15 22:48:22 @tomasino the line-oriented parsing of the gemini files is a huge win for simplicity borrowed from gopher
2020-05-15 22:48:28 xq i can understand why it's not wanted in gemini
2020-05-15 22:48:33 @tomasino but, all that as it is, you can just serve text/markdown
2020-05-15 22:48:39 xq true
2020-05-15 22:48:45 @tomasino once one or two people add parsing for that mime type it's moot
2020-05-15 23:01:22 ▬▬▶ sloum has joined #gemini
2020-05-15 23:07:58 xq anyone here fit with the x509 process?
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2020-05-16 00:06:24 sloum Hi mhj! (I'm on my way out, but good to see you)
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2020-05-16 00:11:25 xq ha
2020-05-16 00:11:41 xq my client starts to pass conmans torture suit (at least the protocol bits)
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2020-05-16 00:11:45 kaoD hi
2020-05-16 00:12:03 xq hey
2020-05-16 00:14:48 kaoD is there a public self-signed gemini server available? I want to test my client's TOFU
2020-05-16 00:14:59 xq gemini://gemini.conman.org/test/torture/0000
2020-05-16 00:15:04 kaoD ty!
2020-05-16 00:15:12 xq doesn't work with openss s_client, so i assume it's self-signed
2020-05-16 00:15:27 xq also has a lot of nice tests for gemini
2020-05-16 00:15:39 xq kaoD, what SSL library are you using?
2020-05-16 00:17:06 kaoD NodeJS's builtin TLS module (uses OpenSSL)
2020-05-16 00:17:23 xq ah
2020-05-16 00:17:27 xq i'm using BearSSL
2020-05-16 00:17:30 xq really bear bones
2020-05-16 00:17:44 xq but well documented
2020-05-16 00:17:56 xq i just hacked the whole x509 trust chain and now i accept everything :D
2020-05-16 00:18:05 xq not quite TOFU, but TOAU
2020-05-16 00:18:18 kaoD ...au?
2020-05-16 00:18:55 xq Trust on all uses :D
2020-05-16 00:19:01 kaoD :P
2020-05-16 00:19:07 xq i just ignore if i know the cert or not
2020-05-16 00:23:28 kaoD so far that's been my strategy too :P
2020-05-16 00:27:23 xq heh
2020-05-16 00:27:35 xq shit, i think i just DDoSd conman
2020-05-16 00:28:01 xq julienxx, i heared you're the one doing castor?
2020-05-16 00:28:07 kaoD huh, this is going to be harder than I expected :/ I thought Node had a way to customize the validation, but it's only called _after_ and _iff_ the CA has been validated
2020-05-16 00:28:10 xq it may has a slight problem with the redirection hell
2020-05-16 00:49:20 @tomasino ahh, you're the one he posted about on the mailing list
2020-05-16 00:49:22 @tomasino naughty naughty
2020-05-16 00:49:53 xq hey, it's not my fault :D
2020-05-16 00:49:56 xq i closed the client!
2020-05-16 00:50:06 xq but killed only one of two threads *fail*
2020-05-16 00:50:22 @tomasino oopses
2020-05-16 00:51:02 xq yep
2020-05-16 00:51:19 xq already mailed him and apologized
2020-05-16 00:55:31 cmccabe hi geminauts. someone mentioned capcom to me today. what is that? a gemini search engine?
2020-05-16 00:57:56 xq hey cmccabe
2020-05-16 00:58:27 xq afaik CAPCOM is an aggregator that collects atom feeds in gemverse
2020-05-16 00:58:58 xq and it will collect them and display them in a daily manner
2020-05-16 01:04:08 cmccabe thanks xq. do you know where it is hosted?
2020-05-16 01:04:53 xq gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/capcom/
2020-05-16 01:06:51 cmccabe great, thanks again xq :)
2020-05-16 01:08:38 xq i should fetch some sleep
2020-05-16 01:08:44 xq but coding is working so well atm
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2020-05-16 05:36:54 makeworld I made a markdown to gemini converter! I've been wanting to make one for a while, and it works!
2020-05-16 05:37:01 makeworld Feels good :)
2020-05-16 05:37:46 makeworld I got to add some more stuff, and publish it to Github and PyPI, but if all goes well expect to see a link to it on the mailing list this weekend
2020-05-16 05:37:58 makeworld Anyway, I'm off to bed, goodnight geminauts
2020-05-16 06:09:43 login nice
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2020-05-16 09:18:49 kaoD hi
2020-05-16 09:26:42 epoch hi
2020-05-16 09:39:57 @julienxx Morning
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2020-05-16 10:10:06 @tomasino morning
2020-05-16 10:10:27 xq hey
2020-05-16 10:11:09 @tomasino what's new
2020-05-16 10:11:40 xq i got my "requestRaw" function done yesterday
2020-05-16 10:11:52 @tomasino very nice!
2020-05-16 10:11:58 xq core of my client library now survives a lot of requests!
2020-05-16 10:12:11 @tomasino multithreaded?
2020-05-16 10:12:12 xq including conmans torture suite (at least the protocol part)
2020-05-16 10:12:32 xq nah, not at all (yet)
2020-05-16 10:12:37 @tomasino it's a really helpful torture suite, isn't it?
2020-05-16 10:12:42 @tomasino i'm so glad he did that
2020-05-16 10:12:42 xq yeah, true
2020-05-16 10:12:56 xq but i have to write him a patch list :D
2020-05-16 10:13:03 xq there are some typos and errors in it
2020-05-16 10:13:10 @julienxx Hey xq to answer your question earlier I’m the Castor maker
2020-05-16 10:13:41 xq ah
2020-05-16 10:13:58 xq your client follows indirections forever :D
2020-05-16 10:14:07 xq but otherwise, really cool project!
2020-05-16 10:14:48 @julienxx Yeah there are still so much things to do like TOFU, pass Conman’s test...
2020-05-16 10:15:03 @julienxx Slowly but surely :)
2020-05-16 10:15:45 @tomasino they all start somewhere
2020-05-16 10:15:55 @tomasino i really appreciate castor. it's really nice
2020-05-16 10:17:10 xq yeah, it's my primary client
2020-05-16 10:17:30 xq i miss a lot of features, but i think julienxx knows what features are missing :D
2020-05-16 10:19:12 xq how's rust treating you, julienxx?
2020-05-16 10:21:20 @julienxx I like it, I’m still a beginner and Castor is my first real GUI program so I struggle a bit on some stuff like GTK and multithreading.
2020-05-16 10:21:42 xq ah yeah
2020-05-16 10:21:49 @julienxx But anytime I add something it’s pretty easy so I guess my code is not that bad
2020-05-16 10:21:54 xq guis are usually bad for multithreading
2020-05-16 10:21:56 @tomasino i'm sure you'll nail down the technical stuffs as time goes on
2020-05-16 10:22:09 @julienxx Which features were you thinking about xq?
2020-05-16 10:22:18 xq can you notify/ping me, when new relevant features come out?
2020-05-16 10:22:31 xq my first big wish: tabs!
2020-05-16 10:22:50 @tomasino tabs eh? that sounds like a fancy one
2020-05-16 10:22:59 xq shouldn't be that hard with GTK actually
2020-05-16 10:23:09 @tomasino i was just thinking a user setting for where to wrap text
2020-05-16 10:23:28 xq theres the gtk3-demo tool that explains in short how every GTK feature works
2020-05-16 10:23:32 xq with a small example code
2020-05-16 10:23:33 xq so awesome
2020-05-16 10:23:34 @tomasino oh nice
2020-05-16 10:23:36 xq oh and some error feedback when an URL
2020-05-16 10:25:04 @julienxx tomasino: where would you want text to wrap? You mean like a line length?
2020-05-16 10:25:25 @tomasino yeah
2020-05-16 10:25:30 @tomasino just a number in the conf
2020-05-16 10:25:37 @tomasino or a slider on the page
2020-05-16 10:25:46 @tomasino something like that would be handy
2020-05-16 10:26:08 @tomasino a slider probably moreso. adjustable on the go
2020-05-16 10:26:22 @tomasino you can resize the whole window, but that's less sexy
2020-05-16 10:26:32 @tomasino i dunno, just thinking out loud
2020-05-16 10:26:40 @tomasino font size tweaking would be my #1
2020-05-16 10:26:44 @tomasino just cause i'm blind
2020-05-16 10:27:11 @julienxx This one is planned in the next few days
2020-05-16 10:27:37 @julienxx I wanted to experiment with soldepunk’s idea of a different color scheme per domain
2020-05-16 10:29:13 xq yeah i love this idea as well!
2020-05-16 10:33:30 xq hmm
2020-05-16 10:33:48 xq what would be a good place to store a list of trusted certificates to build your own trust store for TOFU?
2020-05-16 10:36:06 @julienxx For castor I was thinking of an equivalent to SSH known-hosts somewhere in .local
2020-05-16 10:40:19 @tomasino the one where you choose to set a color, or my "hash the domain and generate color differences" thing?
2020-05-16 10:40:36 xq i think we both talk about the latter one
2020-05-16 10:40:54 @tomasino :)
2020-05-16 10:41:14 @tomasino if it turns out to be too much on the page, you could change the tab color instead
2020-05-16 10:41:19 @tomasino you know, if you have tabs
2020-05-16 10:41:20 @tomasino :P
2020-05-16 10:41:26 xq hmm
2020-05-16 10:41:32 xq how much colors do we need anyways?
2020-05-16 10:41:42 xq we have headings, links, background and text, right?
2020-05-16 10:41:44 @tomasino depends on if you care about accessibility
2020-05-16 10:41:54 @tomasino oh you mean how many stylable colors
2020-05-16 10:41:58 xq yeah
2020-05-16 10:42:24 @tomasino 3 levels of hierarchy headers, lists, and links, though links could change by protocol if you want
2020-05-16 10:42:36 @tomasino or indicate external links to another domain vs relative or same-domain
2020-05-16 10:43:03 @tomasino once people have set their colors in their theme, changing stuff on them might not be as well received as a client that didn't offer styling
2020-05-16 10:43:16 @tomasino but that's why i thought the tab itself might be better
2020-05-16 10:43:21 @tomasino or an outline or something
2020-05-16 10:43:36 @tomasino especially if it's a color that won't affect readability
2020-05-16 10:44:16 @tomasino then you can use colors that are significantly different enough from one another to be identified as changing. You don't want 16 million color choices, for instance. Maybe 256, or even 64
2020-05-16 10:44:30 @tomasino again, just letting my brain out as i think of stuff
2020-05-16 10:44:54 @tomasino if not a tab, maybe a 1-2 px bar across the top of the screen above the page
2020-05-16 10:45:04 @tomasino stylistic, but insignificant to the overall design
2020-05-16 10:45:11 @tomasino or hell, the URL bar!
2020-05-16 10:45:23 @tomasino colorize the text of the domain portion of the URL
2020-05-16 10:45:42 @tomasino many options if the full page change is too much or invades on people's color prefs
2020-05-16 10:46:14 xq well, there's place for experimentation
2020-05-16 10:47:24 @julienxx First I wanted to try generating palettes and if successful provide a setting like random_palette: true/false
2020-05-16 10:48:03 @tomasino :D
2020-05-16 10:48:16 xq guys, what do you think about this:
2020-05-16 10:48:17 @tomasino color palette generation is fun
2020-05-16 10:48:55 epoch maybe do 0x000 to 0xfff ?
2020-05-16 10:49:19 xq if a server is using CA-signed certificates, don't ask for trust, but store the server certificate in the trust store. if it's self-signed or otherwise untrusted, ask the user if they trust the server, if yes, then store the certificate in the trust store as well
2020-05-16 10:49:47 xq epoch: i prefer using handcrafted color palettes to the ones using only "coder colors"
2020-05-16 10:49:49 epoch 12bit color, maybe another 4 bits of transparency if you want two bytes worth
2020-05-16 10:50:23 xq examples: https://lospec.com/palette-list/dawnbringer-16
2020-05-16 10:50:24 xq https://lospec.com/palette-list/pico-8
2020-05-16 10:50:27 @tomasino i think the idea of TOFU was (and please don't rely on me here cause i'm just parroting) to encourage people to move away from CA-signatures for gemini and promote more self-signed certs
2020-05-16 10:50:29 xq both are pretty nice 16 color palettes
2020-05-16 10:50:57 xq tomasino: yeah, i understand that. but why should i click "yes, i trust this server" if i already do anyways because of the CA facility
2020-05-16 10:51:04 xq (that's the idea at least)
2020-05-16 10:51:20 @tomasino i mean why would you prompt at all?
2020-05-16 10:51:40 @tomasino you should just accept it on first use, right?
2020-05-16 10:51:58 @tomasino maybe have a "paranoid mode" or something so people can choose to manually accept new and changing certs?
2020-05-16 10:52:02 xq well, i'd like to offer any of the ideas
2020-05-16 10:52:03 xq like
2020-05-16 10:52:10 xq you can set a trust level between
2020-05-16 10:52:33 @tomasino ahh, i see
2020-05-16 10:52:54 @tomasino well, then yeah... i guess if it's an option you can ramp up to that would be of value to some folks
2020-05-16 10:52:57 xq [accept everything / auto-accept on first use / use CAs or ask on first sight / always ask on first sight / always ask when first seen in a session]
2020-05-16 10:53:22 @tomasino as a casual user i want the cert bit to go away from my end-user experience
2020-05-16 10:53:28 xq we should definitly not depend on the CA system, but we can utilize it anyways
2020-05-16 10:53:53 @tomasino the part that confuses me is what happens if & when a self-signed cert changes
2020-05-16 10:53:55 xq you could query the user what he wants on first start, save that option and allow changing it later
2020-05-16 10:54:09 xq you mean the private key changes?
2020-05-16 10:54:10 @tomasino should that be a warning to teh user or is that something servers are going to do all the time?
2020-05-16 10:54:28 xq i change my *cert* every 5 days on my https server
2020-05-16 10:54:29 @tomasino dunno! i know jetforce generates one when you run it
2020-05-16 10:54:47 xq but the private key stays the same
2020-05-16 10:55:27 styan xq: If you are going to add that many options, maybe add one to prevent it from writing to the disk?
2020-05-16 10:55:41 xq that would be the last onee
2020-05-16 10:55:44 @tomasino i guess if that's the technique servers are using then if a cert indicates that the private key changed then clients would be able to distinguish that change and warn of it
2020-05-16 10:55:50 xq or the first one
2020-05-16 10:56:06 xq "always accept" and "always ask on first sight in session""
2020-05-16 10:56:50 styan auto-accept on first sight in a session?
2020-05-16 10:57:39 @tomasino if you auto-accept, isn't it of more value to store the key so you know of a change later?
2020-05-16 10:58:25 xq styan: usually certs don't change in a day
2020-05-16 10:58:48 styan xq: Unless it gets hacked :-)
2020-05-16 10:58:54 xq yes
2020-05-16 10:59:08 xq but if the server gets hacked, you have lost anyways
2020-05-16 10:59:24 xq TLS secures you against "outer attacks"
2020-05-16 11:00:04 styan I guess I should have said MITMed
2020-05-16 11:00:16 xq yeah true
2020-05-16 11:00:38 @tomasino always ask on first sight in session. i can't read
2020-05-16 11:00:46 @tomasino not auto-accept on first sight in session
2020-05-16 11:00:55 @tomasino derpy derp
2020-05-16 11:02:03 @tomasino oh, so i came up with what i'm gonna write about on gemini!
2020-05-16 11:02:35 @tomasino i'm gonna use my gemlog to record thoughts and impressions as i watch old vintage tv shows
2020-05-16 11:02:49 cmccabe welcome back kotter?
2020-05-16 11:02:49 @tomasino i have one on The Adventures of Superman from the 1950s in my head
2020-05-16 11:02:59 @tomasino i may go as late as kotter eventually
2020-05-16 11:03:17 cmccabe :)
2020-05-16 11:03:19 @tomasino i'll be starting with superman, patty duke, get smart, f-troop, and dobie gillis
2020-05-16 11:03:24 styan Writing every host/key pair to the disk is a little too much like browsing history for my taste.
2020-05-16 11:03:38 styan tomasino: That sounds neat!
2020-05-16 11:03:41 @tomasino thanks!
2020-05-16 11:04:12 @tomasino i'll leave the security stuff to you guys. I know barely enough of that junk to install a cert in apache or nginx, or run certbot
2020-05-16 11:04:57 xq styan: well, it's the list of domains you ever interacted with, so might be some privacy issue, yes
2020-05-16 11:05:12 styan tomasino: That is more than I have done :-)
2020-05-16 11:05:19 @tomasino hah
2020-05-16 11:05:42 @tomasino if you don't store them, does that make you more vulnerable? not noticing something is amiss?
2020-05-16 11:06:17 xq yeah, you would not notice if someone would've MITMd a server between two sessions
2020-05-16 11:06:19 styan xq: I am a strange person who tries very hard to keep my browser from storing persistent state by default.
2020-05-16 11:06:31 xq styan: relatable
2020-05-16 11:06:43 xq i'm the opposite guy, even using cloud features
2020-05-16 11:06:51 cmccabe for people using lets encrypt certs, which are owner/group root by default, what did you do to give your gemini server access?
2020-05-16 11:06:54 xq but i can see your position being reasoanble as well :D
2020-05-16 11:07:00 @tomasino in a ca-signed cert world, not keeping them around is pretty simple
2020-05-16 11:07:21 @tomasino but in self-signed land, detecting unexpected changes over time is harder without keeping a copy around
2020-05-16 11:07:53 @tomasino cmccabe: i forget, but it was a pain in the butt
2020-05-16 11:08:19 cmccabe that was the hang-up that kept me out of gemini serving for some time. i eventually went with self-signed to avoid the problem
2020-05-16 11:08:21 @tomasino oh, no, i think i did something horrible like run the server as a service user that was added to the group with access to the certs
2020-05-16 11:09:01 @tomasino but the more i'm reading on the mailing list the more i'm thinking i should break the letsencrypt connection. Leave that for my web stuff and let jetforce generate things for gemini
2020-05-16 11:09:31 @tomasino i try to run exposed services as a service user in general when possible, so that part won't change
2020-05-16 11:09:46 cmccabe that's a decent idea
2020-05-16 11:10:17 styan I am trying to start writing a server, but I keep bike-shedding with myself about how to configure it.
2020-05-16 11:11:08 @tomasino when gemini first got talked about by solderpunk i decided i wanted to write a server in Ada
2020-05-16 11:11:21 @tomasino i got a port listener up pretty quick, but then i immidiately hit a wall on TLS
2020-05-16 11:11:44 @tomasino no clue at all how to link to c-libs or whatever i'd need to do
2020-05-16 11:11:55 @tomasino never done anything like that in all my programming career
2020-05-16 11:12:08 @tomasino and so... here we are!
2020-05-16 11:12:16 xq tomasino: i don't know for Ada, but it should be pretty easy in general
2020-05-16 11:12:25 xq ada is a native language, so you can use any native TLS library
2020-05-16 11:12:33 xq (which is sadly quite the pain for some of them)
2020-05-16 11:13:06 @tomasino it's like anything, really. If you know what that entails, the terminology to search on or the processes involved, then it's probably easy. I have none of that so it's just a black hole of unknowns
2020-05-16 11:13:26 styan I remember wanting to learn Ada before but it is very big, with no free version of the spec that I could find at the time.
2020-05-16 11:13:37 @tomasino oh, weird
2020-05-16 11:13:42 @tomasino it's all out there free now
2020-05-16 11:13:47 @tomasino it is quite big, though
2020-05-16 11:14:10 xq yeah
2020-05-16 11:14:17 @tomasino I really like its philosophy and enjoy writing the verbose code for a change
2020-05-16 11:14:33 @tomasino text handling is obnoxiously difficult for me though
2020-05-16 11:14:36 xq fun fact: my (former) uni prof for computer languages is one of the main guys in Ada development and even has written the language manual :D
2020-05-16 11:14:48 @tomasino that's cool as heck
2020-05-16 11:14:57 xq yeah, he's a really cool dude
2020-05-16 11:15:01 cmccabe i have a harebrained hankering to write a server in awk, but TLS is the part of the roadmap i think might be tough
2020-05-16 11:15:15 @tomasino you can do a shell script that wraps openssl and passes to awk
2020-05-16 11:15:18 xq Mr. Plödereder :D
2020-05-16 11:15:28 styan xq: What tomasino said.
2020-05-16 11:15:34 @tomasino i think you can subshell in awk itself too, but only in the gnu one
2020-05-16 11:15:38 ⚡ cmccabe makes a note
2020-05-16 11:15:44 cmccabe yes, gawk
2020-05-16 11:15:57 @tomasino jan6: i summon thee....
2020-05-16 11:15:58 styan You can subshell in any AWK
2020-05-16 11:16:06 @tomasino what was your one-liner for gemini that does the openssl bit?
2020-05-16 11:16:17 styan `command | getline'
2020-05-16 11:16:18 xq openssl s_client --connect host.name
2020-05-16 11:16:20 jan6 printf 'gemini://konpeito.media/index-mild.gmi\r\n' | openssl s_client -connect konpeito.media:1965 -quiet -verify_quiet
2020-05-16 11:16:21 jan6 yes
2020-05-16 11:16:25 jan6 both might work
2020-05-16 11:17:00 @tomasino there ya go, cmccabe ... you have half your program right there
2020-05-16 11:17:13 cmccabe bob's your uncle. thanks!
2020-05-16 11:17:15 @tomasino i have a gopher awk parser if you want it to start from
2020-05-16 11:17:16 jan6 lol
2020-05-16 11:17:36 @tomasino https://github.com/jamestomasino/dotfiles-minimal/blob/master/bin/gophermap.awk
2020-05-16 11:17:47 xq funky, i cannot connect to conmans site…
2020-05-16 11:17:59 cmccabe i have an awk gopher parser on rawtext.club, written by ~trnslts. it would be neat to compare with yours, tomasino
2020-05-16 11:18:13 @tomasino oh that would be neat
2020-05-16 11:18:30 cmccabe let me see if trnslts has it in a repo anywhere
2020-05-16 11:18:50 @tomasino i use this one for testing things sometimes
2020-05-16 11:18:57 @tomasino curl | ...
2020-05-16 11:19:17 @tomasino or locally cat | ...
2020-05-16 11:20:09 xq btw
2020-05-16 11:20:24 xq i cannot connect to gemini.conman.org with openssl
2020-05-16 11:20:34 @tomasino oh?
2020-05-16 11:20:56 @tomasino crap, i'm on the wrong machine... julienxx where's your castor repo again?
2020-05-16 11:20:59 @tomasino i need to install it here
2020-05-16 11:21:10 @tomasino source hut somewhere?
2020-05-16 11:21:31 @tomasino i installed the dependencies the other day, but then i upgraded to ubuntu 20.04 so... we'll see how this goes
2020-05-16 11:21:40 @julienxx https://git.sr.ht/~julienxx/castor
2020-05-16 11:21:55 @tomasino danke
2020-05-16 11:22:33 @tomasino cargo is fetching stuff, so i guess we're good
2020-05-16 11:22:36 styan I got "unable to get local issuer certificate" from OpenBSD netcat
2020-05-16 11:22:51 @tomasino maybe it's a complex new test!
2020-05-16 11:23:06 @tomasino that he didn't tell anyone about
2020-05-16 11:23:12 @tomasino you found the secret
2020-05-16 11:23:15 styan With `-T noverify' it works though
2020-05-16 11:24:02 @tomasino nope, i need to install those dependencies again
2020-05-16 11:24:10 ⚡ tomasino checks the #gemini logs f or them again
2020-05-16 11:24:39 styan It is just a certificate verification error, not an easter-egg.
2020-05-16 11:24:54 styan Sadly
2020-05-16 11:25:08 ⚡ tomasino gives styan and xq a blue ribbon anyway
2020-05-16 11:25:20 xq blue ribbon?
2020-05-16 11:25:46 styan We got a prize for finding a not-easter-egg :-)
2020-05-16 11:25:50 xq ah!
2020-05-16 11:25:52 xq \o/
2020-05-16 11:26:21 @tomasino congrats
2020-05-16 11:31:12 styan My server's config format is turning into a hardcoded version of a Forth DSL...
2020-05-16 11:33:23 xq push push pop!
2020-05-16 11:35:10 styan The hard-coded means no stack... yet :-)
2020-05-16 11:36:37 styan I honestly thought about having a boolean stack just for using and/or/xor with conditionals...
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2020-05-16 12:37:08 xq yiss!
2020-05-16 12:37:15 xq i now understand how to do TOFU
2020-05-16 12:37:36 xq just put the certificate chain the server delivers into your trust store and be happy about that
2020-05-16 12:37:48 xq which means atm i can only accept conmans site lol
2020-05-16 12:45:07 login be careful xq
2020-05-16 12:45:16 styan I am not entirely sure of what that means, but I just compared hashes, and I think bombadillo compares the whole certificate.
2020-05-16 12:45:22 login the certificate in that trust chain can sign any website's cert
2020-05-16 12:45:29 login you have to compare the public key only
2020-05-16 12:58:33 xq login: a, thanks! :)
2020-05-16 12:58:43 xq still good to know how to extract the server certs :)
2020-05-16 13:00:03 xq it's reasonable to use PEM files everywhere, right? :D
2020-05-16 13:00:05 login yeah, definitely
2020-05-16 13:00:09 login no knowledge goes waste ever
2020-05-16 13:00:28 xq yep
2020-05-16 13:00:51 xq i'm still new to all of this SSL stuff
2020-05-16 13:04:54 ~tiwesdaeg emacs makes me cry
2020-05-16 13:05:12 ~tiwesdaeg I finally figured I'd try and get elpher working to test it out
2020-05-16 13:11:07 styan I wrote some kind of client in AWK: https://paste.tildeverse.org/?ab67fa6f3bc00cba#H84Lj577R4t2iCyvXJGWTGZ8eirMMnkDJBiZSoNMPtFS
2020-05-16 13:12:11 styan It only works with LibreSSL nc(1), if you do not replace netcat with something else.
2020-05-16 13:14:07 styan I forgot to wrap it up in getopts(1).
2020-05-16 13:34:42 login v nice
2020-05-16 14:58:06 mhj has quit (Ping timeout: 120 seconds)
2020-05-16 15:01:40 ▬▬▶ mhj has joined #gemini
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2020-05-16 15:50:11 kaoD is there a changelog for spec-spec, or is it just announcements in the mailing list?
2020-05-16 16:03:33 @julienxx for now I think there were just discussions in the list and the spec was updated
2020-05-16 16:04:26 login h
2020-05-16 16:13:26 @tomasino in the beginning solderpunk kept all his updates in gopher discussions. you can still see the history of those on his gopher hole. once the mailing list got going decisions started showing up there instead
2020-05-16 16:19:59 login gopher cgi forum?
2020-05-16 16:20:28 @julienxx gemini cgi forum even better
2020-05-16 16:34:44 ~tiwesdaeg hmmm
2020-05-16 16:35:06 ~tiwesdaeg what kind of input options are even available for gemini?
2020-05-16 16:35:17 ~tiwesdaeg gopher has the search type
2020-05-16 16:46:35 @tomasino we have gopher polls
2020-05-16 16:46:42 @tomasino and some weak guestbook stuff
2020-05-16 17:24:51 @julienxx Gemini has a generic input type, some kind of POST request
2020-05-16 17:41:24 ~tiwesdaeg were we talking about reasonably priced 4 letter domains in here?
2020-05-16 17:41:51 ~tiwesdaeg I think I found the only tld left at a decent price, .ci
2020-05-16 17:46:47 login trauis.ci
2020-05-16 17:47:05 ~tiwesdaeg as in xx.ci
2020-05-16 17:47:10 ~tiwesdaeg pick two characters
2020-05-16 18:10:07 login ra.ci
2020-05-16 18:10:23 login ci.xi
2020-05-16 18:10:32 login ea.ci
2020-05-16 18:10:53 login bc.ci
2020-05-16 18:11:04 login ac.ci
2020-05-16 18:11:14 login la.ci
2020-05-16 18:26:43 lucidiot lu.ci/diot
2020-05-16 19:24:09 @tomasino ic.ci?
2020-05-16 19:57:48 jan6 ugh
2020-05-16 19:58:06 jan6 remaking my konpeito downloader in python
2020-05-16 19:58:17 jan6 the fact the spec says the whitespace is optional, is annoying
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2020-05-16 21:39:11 makeworld julienxx: tiwesdaeg: RE: gemini forum - I've been thinking about writing a gemini comment system, so that people can easily add comments and like functionality to their gemlogs
2020-05-16 21:39:27 makeworld It would just use the regular gemini input, like status code 10
2020-05-16 21:40:43 makeworld Making it work as CGI might be hard though, but I worry that if I write it as a separate Jetforce or Go server people won't be as likely to add it
2020-05-16 21:40:54 ⚡ makeworld shrugs
2020-05-16 21:44:38 @julienxx Could work, I’m not a fan of comments myself, I’d rather get some email but I can see the appeal
2020-05-16 21:49:59 ~tiwesdaeg export $OPENSSL_DIR="/usr/pkg"
2020-05-16 21:50:18 ~tiwesdaeg julienxx: the magic needed for castor and gemserv on netbsd
2020-05-16 21:51:44 @julienxx Ha good to know I should add that to the README
2020-05-16 21:52:09 @tomasino https://labs.tomasino.org/comments/
2020-05-16 21:52:54 ~tiwesdaeg of course that means it looks for libs in the wrong place too
2020-05-16 21:53:05 ~tiwesdaeg castor: Shared object "libssl.so.1.1" not found
2020-05-16 21:54:31 @julienxx tomasino: agree 100%
2020-05-16 21:55:39 @julienxx netbsd and rust-openssl don’t get along :/
2020-05-16 21:56:12 ~tiwesdaeg there are lots of missing libs ;P
2020-05-16 21:56:17 @julienxx I remember you had issues with Asuka which uses the same rust lib
2020-05-16 21:56:25 ~tiwesdaeg I'm not sure how kosher it is to symbollically link them all
2020-05-16 21:58:43 ~tiwesdaeg finally got it to run after like 10 symbolic links
2020-05-16 21:58:54 ~tiwesdaeg gtk is complaining about missing icons
2020-05-16 21:59:42 ~tiwesdaeg I'll have to play with it later
2020-05-16 22:02:20 @julienxx This is a issue I already saw, I needed to install a basic theme like adwaita
2020-05-16 22:03:17 ▬▬▶ mhj has joined #gemini
2020-05-16 22:16:51 epoch with a properly setup mailto: handler just having mailto:comments@my-site&subject=URL-being-commented-on would be fine?
2020-05-16 22:17:02 epoch err ?subject*
2020-05-16 22:17:07 jan6 this is one of the reasons why static linking is da bomb ;P
2020-05-16 22:21:12 ~tiwesdaeg the icon theme did it, thanks
2020-05-16 22:27:09 jan6 @forum, one could always rig up a mail-based comment system that automatically proccesses the mails
2020-05-16 22:28:07 jan6 if incorrect format, reply with error, else if command == null or add or edit or delete, do_command
2020-05-16 22:30:01 @julienxx Could
2020-05-16 22:31:33 @julienxx (Sorry typing on mobile doesn’t help)I’m quite sure cmccabe FriSBE could be used https://rawtext.club/~frisbee/
2020-05-16 22:35:20 ⚡ southerntofu always enjoys frisbee's pizza
2020-05-16 22:41:30 @julienxx Email is the best
2020-05-16 22:52:06 epoch building castor on debian, so far have needed to install librust-pango-dev and librust-atk-dev
2020-05-16 22:54:56 epoch and librust-gdk-dev
2020-05-16 22:59:16 @tomasino epoch: apt install build-essential rustc cargo libgtk-3-dev libgdk-pixbuf2.0-dev libssl-dev
2020-05-16 22:59:21 @tomasino that's what it took me
2020-05-16 22:59:42 @tomasino then i could just make & make install
2020-05-16 22:59:43 epoch you probably already had pango?
2020-05-16 22:59:50 @tomasino i had nada
2020-05-16 23:00:11 epoch yeah, I just did git clone, then cd, then make then apt install whatever it errors at
2020-05-16 23:00:12 @tomasino never touched rust stuff on either of my boxen
2020-05-16 23:00:28 epoch guess I already had rust and cargo installed
2020-05-16 23:00:36 @tomasino that helps! :)
2020-05-16 23:00:46 epoch and libssl-dev
2020-05-16 23:00:53 @tomasino julien had grabbed that list of stuff from one of the mailing list emails, i think
2020-05-16 23:00:59 @tomasino i just grab it from weechat logs now when i need it
2020-05-16 23:01:38 epoch seems like something that would go good in an INSTALL file in the repo
2020-05-16 23:01:48 epoch it might already be there, I haven't looked.
2020-05-16 23:02:12 epoch it is
2020-05-16 23:02:31 epoch in README.md
2020-05-16 23:05:27 epoch I had a couple shell scripts for doing gemini client things and I had them named castor and the other pollux, the dir I put them in was dioscuri I think
2020-05-16 23:06:28 epoch I'll probably name them from a different gemini reference.
2020-05-16 23:06:34 @tomasino haha
2020-05-16 23:06:39 @tomasino yay for readme
2020-05-16 23:08:33 epoch NASA references probably would work better, since outer*space* and cyber*space*
2020-05-16 23:10:00 epoch merp. castor's 'install' target failed
2020-05-16 23:10:20 epoch update-desktop-database
2020-05-16 23:10:42 epoch tried to use the global /usr/local/share/applications instead of using $PREFIX, or $prefix
2020-05-16 23:11:17 epoch maybe I just need XDG_DATA_DIRS set?
2020-05-16 23:12:20 epoch yeah, that fixed it.
2020-05-16 23:12:30 styan I made my AWK client handle user-input and redirects, and wrote a man-page, now it is almost like a real client: https://tildegit.org/styan/geminawk
2020-05-16 23:12:36 ⚡ epoch shoves: export XDG_DATA_DIRS=/home/epoch/.local/share into bashrc
2020-05-16 23:13:22 @tomasino I like xdg
2020-05-16 23:13:39 ⚡ epoch first does: castor --help
2020-05-16 23:13:59 epoch "Could not connect to --help:1965"
2020-05-16 23:14:02 epoch :)
2020-05-16 23:14:43 @tomasino Love it
2020-05-16 23:14:54 @tomasino Geminiawk is gonna be my fav
2020-05-16 23:15:16 @tomasino That's code I know how to mess with!
2020-05-16 23:15:31 epoch bunch of stuff like: "Error loading theme icon 'list-add' for stock: Icon 'list-add' not present in theme Adwaita"
2020-05-16 23:15:37 epoch guess I need to install some icon packs?
2020-05-16 23:15:58 styan tomasino: It probably only works on OpenBSD, so probably start playing with it on tilde.black :-)
2020-05-16 23:16:09 epoch were there no good icons in unicode that could have been used instead of trying to find images?
2020-05-16 23:16:10 @tomasino Woo
2020-05-16 23:18:05 styan vis(1) does not appear to be a thing in Linux land.
2020-05-16 23:18:55 epoch you can get it.
2020-05-16 23:19:07 @tomasino What's it do? ( On mobile)
2020-05-16 23:19:20 epoch it does conversions kind of
2020-05-16 23:19:31 epoch like, you can encode stuff as html entities, or decode with unvis
2020-05-16 23:19:38 epoch or percent encoding
2020-05-16 23:19:39 styan Converts non-visable characters to a visual representation.
2020-05-16 23:19:43 @tomasino Ahh
2020-05-16 23:19:44 epoch or mail-format or something
2020-05-16 23:20:02 styan It also has percent-encoding for URLs, for some reason.
2020-05-16 23:21:21 epoch I wrote my own tools to do html entities and percent encoding that I use in shell scripts a lot
2020-05-16 23:21:22 styan If `cat -v' is considered harmful, what would a `cat --uri-percent-encoding' be considered to be? :-)
2020-05-16 23:23:24 @tomasino in the same way, yes
2020-05-16 23:23:28 styan Oh, I almost forgot, the syntax-highlighting breaks on tildegit with geminawk.sh
2020-05-16 23:23:34 @tomasino that a program should specialize in it
2020-05-16 23:23:38 @tomasino and therefore, who cares
2020-05-16 23:23:40 @tomasino do what you want. ;D
2020-05-16 23:24:02 @tomasino yeah, syntax highlighting of awk inside a shell script is tricksy
2020-05-16 23:24:53 styan I put a lot of single-quotes inside single-quotes.
2020-05-16 23:25:56 @tomasino there's the EOF <<< trick for awk inside a shell script
2020-05-16 23:26:16 @tomasino https://stackoverflow.com/a/15020506
2020-05-16 23:26:43 @tomasino if you're going to write a lot of awk inside i find that easier to work with
2020-05-16 23:26:44 epoch multiple languages in a single file probably break most syntax highlighters?
2020-05-16 23:26:57 @tomasino yarp
2020-05-16 23:27:25 styan It was not syntax-highlighting the AWK, it just stopped considering the quoted string a quoted string.
2020-05-16 23:27:52 @tomasino or a more thorough explanation of here-docing awk nside a shell script is here: https://superuser.com/a/440059
2020-05-16 23:28:25 kaoD has quit (Connection closed)
2020-05-16 23:29:37 styan I thought that `$VAR' is expanded by the shell in here-documents?
2020-05-16 23:29:43 @tomasino geminiawk works great on ~black
2020-05-16 23:30:45 @tomasino give it a shot. i've used it in the past well
2020-05-16 23:30:58 @tomasino and yeah, it does NOT work on ubuntu. :D
2020-05-16 23:31:06 @tomasino netcat choked right out of the gate
2020-05-16 23:32:05 styan Read the CAVEATS section on how to fix that without editing it.
2020-05-16 23:32:35 @tomasino ahh, coolio
2020-05-16 23:33:25 styan It should be a simple as `NC=openssl NCFLAGS=sclient...'
2020-05-16 23:33:35 styan Then everything except user-input will work.
2020-05-16 23:33:57 epoch oh no, regex for parsing URIs, may I interest you in some uri parsing code I have? :)
2020-05-16 23:34:25 epoch https://github.com/kkabrams/uritools/
2020-05-16 23:35:48 @tomasino but then it wouldn't be an awk thing anymore
2020-05-16 23:35:49 @tomasino :P
2020-05-16 23:36:06 @tomasino styan: installed it on black
2020-05-16 23:36:12 @tomasino i'll update as you go
2020-05-16 23:36:12 epoch you're already using shell
2020-05-16 23:36:31 styan The URI RFC actually gives you regular-expressions to parse URIs though :-)
2020-05-16 23:36:41 @tomasino ahh, nice
2020-05-16 23:36:43 @tomasino yay RFCs
2020-05-16 23:37:05 styan And they are a lot more lenient than what I wrote.
2020-05-16 23:37:44 epoch usually the people that write regexes to do URI stuff don't use the regexes from the RFC
2020-05-16 23:38:54 epoch they're like is "^https?://[a-z.:-]/[a-z/_.-]*" good enough?
2020-05-16 23:39:46 styan I bet, the URI spec is a bit convoluted.
2020-05-16 23:41:17 jan6 sure is
2020-05-16 23:41:38 styan I went though the RFC's syntax part over and over again writing a URI validator in C. The way it specifies IPv6 addresses is unnecessarily confusing.
2020-05-16 23:41:41 @tomasino I made a t-shirt out of the email RFC regex
2020-05-16 23:42:00 jan6 lol
2020-05-16 23:42:08 jan6 the mail regex is a classic
2020-05-16 23:42:14 @tomasino Let me see if I can find it
2020-05-16 23:43:35 @tomasino https://ttm.sh/Ex-.png
2020-05-16 23:44:08 @tomasino i have a lovely illustrator file for it as well in case anyone wants to go get one printed
2020-05-16 23:44:25 styan Also, the fact that nc(1) *actually* parses what it gets helps me be less parinoid about using the regular-expressions.
2020-05-16 23:44:57 styan tomasino: That is a fun shirt
2020-05-16 23:45:06 @tomasino https://ttm.sh/E-D.ai - adobe illustrator vector version
2020-05-16 23:45:19 jan6 tomasino: do the perl/ruby version instead P;
2020-05-16 23:45:19 @tomasino i have one in my closet
2020-05-16 23:45:20 jan6 ;P
2020-05-16 23:45:34 @tomasino i was planning on doing more tshirts based on RFCs
2020-05-16 23:45:49 @tomasino the next one, which i haven't done yet, was going to be the ascii table
2020-05-16 23:46:04 @tomasino RFC 20
2020-05-16 23:46:16 styan That is a much longer one that what I saw: ^(([^:/?#]+):)?(//([^/?#]*))?([^?#]*)(\?([^#]*))?(#(.*))?
2020-05-16 23:46:41 jan6 it depends on language
2020-05-16 23:46:50 jan6 https://emailregex.com/
2020-05-16 23:47:15 jan6 Perl / Ruby variant is the best, lol
2020-05-16 23:47:23 @tomasino there's the functional regex and there's the RFC
2020-05-16 23:47:28 @tomasino the RFC is just plain silly
2020-05-16 23:47:32 @tomasino and that's why it's tshirt worthy
2020-05-16 23:47:48 styan jan6: I am tempted to write a Tcl version.
2020-05-16 23:48:19 jan6 did you look at the perl/ruby variant, styan?
2020-05-16 23:48:27 jan6 keep that in mind before you try
2020-05-16 23:48:31 jan6 but otherwise, go for it ;P
2020-05-16 23:49:47 @tomasino :)
2020-05-16 23:50:15 styan tomasino: I got that regex from this RFC: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3986#page-50
2020-05-16 23:50:44 styan jan6: I did, but I quickly looked away. It is huge!
2020-05-16 23:50:51 @tomasino that one would be really cool
2020-05-16 23:51:48 jan6 hehe
2020-05-16 23:52:12 jan6 I said, keep that in mind, because your TCL version may or may not get close ;P
2020-05-16 23:52:17 styan Tcl strings are always UTF-8, so I think it would be a bit easier.
2020-05-16 23:54:18 styan Oh, a lot of those do not have line-breaks, and have horizontal scroll bars...
2020-05-16 23:58:26 styan I think you need to rebuild the man-page database for man(1) to find the man-page.
2020-05-16 23:58:53 styan Oops, wrong channel
2020-05-16 23:59:11 styan tomasino: That was for you ^
2020-05-17 00:01:23 @tomasino oh?
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2020-05-17 00:05:21 quinnj Hi, I heard about this recently and I'd like to use it for my site; I was wondering what the most sensible way to indicate a page title is? Should I just use a single-hash header at the top?
2020-05-17 00:06:02 @tomasino that's the best for a top level heading, so i'd say so
2020-05-17 00:06:18 @tomasino but some people prefer the less accessible, but fancier, ascii art header
2020-05-17 00:06:22 @tomasino or figlet style
2020-05-17 00:06:29 @tomasino it's really up to you
2020-05-17 00:06:41 quinnj ah, okay
2020-05-17 00:07:17 quinnj I was just asking because using a single-hash header would take up a level for the whole document
2020-05-17 00:07:27 @tomasino that's true
2020-05-17 00:07:43 @tomasino I'm more of a figlet guy myself
2020-05-17 00:07:49 makeworld But that's how most markdown is written anyway
2020-05-17 00:07:53 @tomasino if you decided to go the art way just be sure to code-fence it
2020-05-17 00:08:09 @tomasino true, makeworld, but gemini only has 3 level
2020-05-17 00:08:12 makeworld With using a single header at the top, and all the subsequent headers are h2, aka ##
2020-05-17 00:08:13 makeworld Yeah
2020-05-17 00:08:47 makeworld I wouldn't worry to much about using multiple levels though. Idk why it only has 3 when Markdown has 6, it doesn't make much difference imo
2020-05-17 00:08:53 @tomasino i'm excited about the alt-text in code fencing stuff getting discussed
2020-05-17 00:08:55 @tomasino i hope that happens
2020-05-17 00:09:15 makeworld Yeah
2020-05-17 00:09:32 makeworld It'd be nice to support ANSI codes properly, it's just complicated
2020-05-17 00:09:37 @tomasino there's just books worth of discussion in all that in the archives
2020-05-17 00:09:41 makeworld Because having color like some sites do is super nice
2020-05-17 00:10:07 @tomasino that was also discussed. to use term stuff or not. since many people are making graphical clients now it makes less sense
2020-05-17 00:10:13 @tomasino so do you allow it and strip it or disallow it
2020-05-17 00:10:16 @tomasino and blah blah blah
2020-05-17 00:10:19 @tomasino endless rounds
2020-05-17 00:10:21 makeworld The main issue from those discussions seemed to be security bc of some certain codes right?
2020-05-17 00:10:33 @tomasino the arguement against it is 2-fold
2020-05-17 00:10:37 makeworld Yeah, but I don't think it would be that hard for graphical clients to parse
2020-05-17 00:10:41 makeworld Oh yeah?
2020-05-17 00:10:56 @tomasino 1) the codes are not just color, and could represent security issues, or a clear screen, or all sorts of crap
2020-05-17 00:11:13 @tomasino 2) they're terminal based which makes no sense outside a term
2020-05-17 00:11:28 @tomasino but as soon as you get into what ELSE to use, now we're adding styling markup
2020-05-17 00:11:34 @tomasino and that has a hard no
2020-05-17 00:12:14 @tomasino i think we'll probably ignore it in the spec and people will use them and they'll just work in terminal clients
2020-05-17 00:12:19 @tomasino and graphical clients may learn to strip them
2020-05-17 00:12:23 @tomasino or not adn get junk
2020-05-17 00:12:28 @tomasino we'll see, though
2020-05-17 00:12:39 @tomasino konpeito, like a boss, is doing the right move
2020-05-17 00:12:52 @tomasino add actual content and just do the thing you want to see work
2020-05-17 00:13:01 @tomasino and people want to go there, so bam... support shows up
2020-05-17 00:13:10 @tomasino cat's awesome though adn gives you the non-spicy option too
2020-05-17 00:13:42 styan You are making me wonder what sites I have visited (other than konpeito) have color. (my terminals are set to monochrome)
2020-05-17 00:15:18 @tomasino not sure! :D
2020-05-17 00:15:25 @tomasino i may add some to fox
2020-05-17 00:15:35 @tomasino i'm about to journal a thing!
2020-05-17 00:15:53 styan Exciting!
2020-05-17 00:21:34 cat genin has color on ~black but i'm
2020-05-17 00:21:49 cat not sure i mirrorred it on gemini or just left it on gopher
2020-05-17 00:24:59 makeworld The advantage of ANSI codes I think, is that you get styling without needing to invent styling markup
2020-05-17 00:25:09 makeworld Cause they already exist
2020-05-17 00:25:10 epoch looks like castor cleans up the URI before sending it, like removing ../s and stuff
2020-05-17 00:25:22 epoch so I'll have to test directory traversals with something else
2020-05-17 00:25:50 makeworld You could use a lower level client like gurl or the one I wrote, gemget
2020-05-17 00:26:20 makeworld Also I a new project to announce. You heard it here first folks!
2020-05-17 00:26:21 makeworld https://github.com/makeworld-the-better-one/md2gemini
2020-05-17 00:26:27 styan epoch: Non of my clients clean that up.
2020-05-17 00:26:35 makeworld Markdown to Gemini converter
2020-05-17 00:26:45 xq hey makeworld :)
2020-05-17 00:26:50 makeworld Gonna announce on the mailing list now too
2020-05-17 00:26:53 xq gurl is maybe perfect for a low-level job atm :D
2020-05-17 00:26:58 ⚡ makeworld waves
2020-05-17 00:27:00 xq it can only do "raw requests"
2020-05-17 00:27:03 xq but it works! :)
2020-05-17 00:27:19 xq working on the TOFU stuff atm
2020-05-17 00:27:20 @tomasino i'm flowing into this new content well
2020-05-17 00:27:32 @tomasino i'm gonna keep fox to a single level deep
2020-05-17 00:27:35 xq have to get that running, then i can continue with more interesting parts :D
2020-05-17 00:27:47 @tomasino all updates will be on my root gophermap and link to the relevant document. No phlog subfolder to aggregate
2020-05-17 00:27:54 @tomasino or gemlog, or whatever
2020-05-17 00:28:34 @tomasino also, hi cat!
2020-05-17 00:33:08 makeworld I'm hoping the tool I wrote can be used to auto convert existing blogs to gemini
2020-05-17 00:33:12 makeworld Or allow for dual hosting
2020-05-17 00:33:28 makeworld Like write in Markdown and use jekyll for HTTP, and md2gemini for gemini
2020-05-17 00:35:45 @tomasino back to writing!
2020-05-17 00:58:35 epoch so, if someone sends my gemini server a directory traversal attempt, I should respond with a code 59?
2020-05-17 00:59:01 epoch (assuming I /don't/ want to leave it as an easter egg)
2020-05-17 00:59:27 xq so you mean access gemini://your.server/../lol
2020-05-17 00:59:28 xq ?
2020-05-17 00:59:50 xq yeah sounds like a 59 to me
2020-05-17 01:00:48 epoch yeah, that's what I meant.
2020-05-17 01:02:32 epoch gemini://batou.thebackupbox.net/
2020-05-17 01:02:41 epoch I might make a cname for gemini.thebackupbox.net later
2020-05-17 01:05:46 epoch the oneko that runs around on my screen causes visible blinking of full-window refreshes in castor
2020-05-17 01:06:16 epoch not sure if that's fixable easily
2020-05-17 01:06:25 epoch like be a gdk bug or something
2020-05-17 01:07:20 epoch the X server will tell X clients which parts need to be refreshed, but the code probably just redraws everything if any bit gets an expose or something
2020-05-17 01:09:22 epoch looks like castor doesn't trust servers to know that what they're sending is a URI?
2020-05-17 01:09:44 epoch tried something like: =>madeup+uri://lolwat/wellheck
2020-05-17 01:09:49 epoch silently ignored it
2020-05-17 01:13:11 epoch also, tried to show a plaintext version of a gemini file, but it seems like castor is mime sniffing
2020-05-17 01:13:52 epoch IRC is probably not the best place to submit bug reports
2020-05-17 01:15:23 xq epoch: thanks for the test case
2020-05-17 01:20:27 xq also epoch: my library tells me that your certificate is not valid for /batou.thebackupbox.net?
2020-05-17 01:21:03 epoch that makes sense, I just reused whatever cert I had laying around for my http daemon
2020-05-17 01:21:10 xq haha okay :D
2020-05-17 01:21:21 epoch I'll generate a real one later
2020-05-17 01:21:29 epoch it'll have its own private key and stuff
2020-05-17 01:21:33 xq works without gemini/batou prefix :)
2020-05-17 01:21:38 epoch just have to update my makefile
2020-05-17 01:21:56 styan epoch: gemini://batou.thebackupbox.net/a_page returns the text/gemini mime-type, so that might be your issue.
2020-05-17 01:22:14 epoch oh, wtf?
2020-05-17 01:22:31 epoch piss
2020-05-17 01:22:35 epoch yeah, I'm wrong.
2020-05-17 01:22:50 ⚡ epoch sets to text/plain
2020-05-17 01:23:57 epoch yep, works now. :)
2020-05-17 01:24:10 styan It would have been funny if it did not. :-)
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2020-05-17 01:24:32 epoch (I don't have .gmi setup to use text/gemini yet, so viewing index.gmi directly will show its source)
2020-05-17 01:24:48 epoch hrm.. view-source:gemini://thebackupbox.net/ ?
2020-05-17 01:25:04 epoch that might be handy.
2020-05-17 01:25:14 epoch it complains about port number when I try that now
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2020-05-17 01:50:59 @tomasino wowza
2020-05-17 01:51:01 @tomasino that took a while
2020-05-17 01:51:16 @tomasino please check out fox's gemspace on tilde.black
2020-05-17 01:51:22 @tomasino there's something wonderful for you all
2020-05-17 01:51:28 @tomasino cat: ^
2020-05-17 01:54:38 styan tomasino: It will be neat if you do one from 1965 :-)
2020-05-17 01:54:48 @tomasino :D i'll get there!
2020-05-17 01:55:46 @tomasino exclusive long-form content on obscure nerdy, but non-technical topics
2020-05-17 01:55:56 @tomasino that's my new gemini bag, baby
2020-05-17 01:56:17 xq tomasino: nice write
2020-05-17 01:56:42 xq i actually think to start a blog on my website as well, served via gemini and http
2020-05-17 01:56:51 @tomasino julienxx: feature request!
2020-05-17 01:57:07 @tomasino i want to add the ```art things and the ``` alt text closing things
2020-05-17 01:57:20 @tomasino but if i add anything except JUST the ``` castor doesn't parse it well
2020-05-17 01:57:55 @tomasino if you tweak that to only check the first 3 characters and ignore the rest of the line it'll work perfect and flexibly
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2020-05-17 02:05:23 ℹ Mode #gemini [+qo tiwesdaeg tiwesdaeg] by ChanServ
2020-05-17 02:36:47 epoch merp.
2020-05-17 02:37:02 epoch was looking at what castor uses to open random files
2020-05-17 02:37:13 epoch uses open::that
2020-05-17 02:37:29 epoch which tries 4 different hard-coded program names
2020-05-17 02:37:45 epoch xdg-open, gnome-open, kde-open, and wslview
2020-05-17 02:38:27 epoch https://docs.rs/open/1.4.0/src/open/lib.rs.html#58-76
2020-05-17 02:39:13 epoch so looks like I'll have to hijack xdg-open
2020-05-17 02:40:05 epoch also, I really hate how stuff will know exactly that the mime-type of a file is supposed to be, but never pass it on to something like xdg-open
2020-05-17 02:40:37 epoch and rely on libmagic instead
2020-05-17 02:41:57 epoch like, a second argument xdg-open 'filepath' 'mime/type-we-want-to-treat-it-as'
2020-05-17 02:43:41 xq xdg-open does not have an entry for the mime type in my man page
2020-05-17 02:44:37 ⚡ styan Is surprised to find xdg-open(1) on my computer.
2020-05-17 02:45:53 styan Oh, I have devel/xdg-utils installed for xdg-settings(1)
2020-05-17 02:50:19 epoch I'm saying that it should be added
2020-05-17 02:50:23 epoch to xdg-open
2020-05-17 02:50:28 xq yeah, true
2020-05-17 02:51:09 epoch then programs that try to call out to external programs for "hey, can I get this file to open" will start sending an extra "by the way, it is probably this/type of file"
2020-05-17 02:52:24 epoch I'm doing something like the two-argument thing using a file: URI instead
2020-05-17 02:52:38 epoch with the mime-type as a query param
2020-05-17 02:55:01 epoch so if I do: uristart file://home/epoch/anything?mime-type=text/plain it'll open it with my plain-text editor, even if the mime sniffing would have said it was an image or a directory
2020-05-17 02:55:21 epoch err
2020-05-17 02:55:26 epoch need more /s after the :
2020-05-17 02:55:50 epoch or one less..
2020-05-17 02:57:26 styan I am fairly sure just one is fine. But more slashes go to the same place anyway.
2020-05-17 02:58:25 epoch zero or two is the only wrong way
2020-05-17 02:58:38 epoch file://home/epoch is /epoch on the "home" host
2020-05-17 02:59:14 epoch zero would have it be a path of home/epoch instead of /home/epoch
2020-05-17 03:04:39 epoch https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Specifications/mime-apps-spec/ links to gmane.org
2020-05-17 03:04:45 epoch gmane.org lost its domain
2020-05-17 03:04:52 epoch so they're on gmane.io, but
2020-05-17 03:04:58 xq afaik it should be file:/home/epoch
2020-05-17 03:05:02 epoch they don't allow you to view stuff over http anymore
2020-05-17 03:05:09 ⚡ xq quotes: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3986#section-3.3
2020-05-17 03:05:10 styan I was wrong, *technically* only one slash, or two if the the first component is a valid authority, is valid.
2020-05-17 03:05:42 epoch or, time to check that an NNTP client is installed
2020-05-17 03:06:11 styan epoch: archive.org?
2020-05-17 03:06:13 epoch so*
2020-05-17 03:06:49 epoch mmmeh. I want as recent as possible.
2020-05-17 03:07:02 epoch looks like pan is crashing. :/
2020-05-17 03:07:28 epoch guess I could try lynx
2020-05-17 03:08:25 ⚡ epoch installs tin
2020-05-17 03:09:38 epoch hrm. tin -r tries to read news.[my-domain]
2020-05-17 03:09:58 xq hey, anyone in for a small test?
2020-05-17 03:10:00 xq https://github.com/MasterQ32/gurl/releases/tag/v0.1
2020-05-17 03:10:07 xq gurl just reached "usable" state
2020-05-17 03:11:57 xq ROFL
2020-05-17 03:12:21 xq I'm laughing so hard right now
2020-05-17 03:12:28 epoch tin -g news.gmane.io gmane.linux.xdg.devel
2020-05-17 03:13:13 epoch latest post is... May 8th 2020
2020-05-17 03:14:23 styan xq: It did not compile on FreeBSD 13-CURRENT "InvalidAbiVersion"
2020-05-17 03:14:34 styan I would blame Zig though.
2020-05-17 03:15:25 xq oh? can you tell me more?
2020-05-17 03:15:36 xq would be nice to have freebsd supported as well :)
2020-05-17 03:16:05 xq i've seen that there is no cross-libc for freebsd, otherwise i would've built a file for you guys already :)
2020-05-17 03:16:06 styan It is probably Zig trying to not call things through libc, and failing.
2020-05-17 03:16:18 xq try
2020-05-17 03:16:25 xq zig build -Dtarget=native-native
2020-05-17 03:17:31 styan It fails in the same way.
2020-05-17 03:17:55 styan It probably does not like CURRENT, and only *really* supports releases.
2020-05-17 03:18:13 xq yeah probably
2020-05-17 03:18:21 styan Or supports specifically an older CURRENT.
2020-05-17 03:18:35 xq i think we have no freebsd users in the community and it's only tested in CI
2020-05-17 03:19:38 styan Personally, I wanted to like Zig, but so many parts of it rub me the wrong way.
2020-05-17 03:20:15 xq huh? tell me
2020-05-17 03:20:37 xq i'm quite in love with the language already
2020-05-17 03:21:07 styan Well, things like this for one. Doing so many things for two. And it is quite an opinionated language for three.
2020-05-17 03:22:23 xq wdym by "for two"?
2020-05-17 03:22:58 styan Oh, and being so tied to LLVM. Compiling LLVM to update FreeBSD makes me not like it (it takes forever). :-)
2020-05-17 03:23:11 xq ah
2020-05-17 03:23:26 xq the LLVM binding is just released ;)
2020-05-17 03:23:27 styan It is just post-hoc making it a numbered list.
2020-05-17 03:23:34 xq ah, got it now
2020-05-17 03:23:40 xq andrew is currently working on self-hosted, llvm-free compiler
2020-05-17 03:24:08 styan I saw that the self-hosted one will support tabs!
2020-05-17 03:24:16 xq ^^
2020-05-17 03:24:23 xq yeah, 1.0 will remove that restriction
2020-05-17 03:24:24 xq everything is still quite early in development, but it already has a better-working cross-dev environment than anything before
2020-05-17 03:24:32 xq you know what the restriction is there?
2020-05-17 03:25:46 styan Something about the current compiler only being meant to bootstrap the self-hosted one?
2020-05-17 03:26:27 xq yep
2020-05-17 03:26:33 makeworld Anyone else not able to access gemini://rawtext.club:1965/~sloum/geminilist/
2020-05-17 03:26:38 xq llvm will be an optional module
2020-05-17 03:26:46 xq makeworld: doesn't have port 1965 open
2020-05-17 03:26:53 xq nc doesn't connect :D
2020-05-17 03:26:53 makeworld Huh
2020-05-17 03:27:15 xq styan: what do you mean by opinionated?
2020-05-17 03:27:16 styan makeworld: Connection refused
2020-05-17 03:27:25 makeworld Thanks
2020-05-17 03:27:45 ⚡ xq is a bit sorry for stealing a ML thread :D
2020-05-17 03:27:59 xq but also: how dare is he to steal my mail topic i was just typing!
2020-05-17 03:29:18 styan xq: From the "zen of zig": "Only one obvious way to do things" and "Minimize energy spent on coding style"
2020-05-17 03:29:52 xq ah yeah
2020-05-17 03:29:58 xq last thing is quite true actually
2020-05-17 03:30:07 xq i just don't care about formatting, zig fmt does that for me
2020-05-17 03:30:14 styan Though, you should know I compair everything to concatnative languages. :-)
2020-05-17 03:30:26 styan Any syntax is more opinionated than no syntax.
2020-05-17 03:30:34 xq well
2020-05-17 03:30:52 xq zig zen is a guideline for discussions and language design
2020-05-17 03:31:00 xq and i think it's a quite good guideline
2020-05-17 03:31:14 xq the "one obvious way" is not meant in: "they way is obvious for every programmer"
2020-05-17 03:31:40 xq but "if you know the language and want to do X, it should be immediatly clear how to do X and everybody should get roughly to the same solution"
2020-05-17 03:31:58 xq and this was one thing that actually surprised me how well it is achieved
2020-05-17 03:32:30 xq also: shit. i just looked at the clock
2020-05-17 03:32:34 xq 5:30 am
2020-05-17 03:32:39 xq this is waaaaay past sleeping time
2020-05-17 03:33:10 styan I have not spent much time with zig, between iffy BSD support and having to preprocess source files for tabs, I quickly stopped
2020-05-17 03:33:13 styan Maybe it gets better.
2020-05-17 03:33:59 styan nvi(1) can not auto-expanding tabs. (at least until OpenBSD patches it)
2020-05-17 03:34:23 styan s/expanding/expand/
2020-05-17 03:35:05 xq you can also just zig fmt your file, minimize time spent on coding style and it will auto-remove and replace all tabs for you :)
2020-05-17 03:35:25 xq but yeah, that BSD support is not good yet is sad
2020-05-17 03:35:32 styan But a program modifying my source files automatically...
2020-05-17 03:35:47 xq yeah, that's something you can get used to
2020-05-17 03:35:48 styan I am a bit of a control freak about my computer.
2020-05-17 03:35:50 xq i do that every safe
2020-05-17 03:35:58 xq i even just use it to fix indentation
2020-05-17 03:36:00 styan I do not like it doing anything automatically.
2020-05-17 03:36:20 xq i've started to use code formatters with zig
2020-05-17 03:36:37 xq the thing is: the formatter only formats valid source files and uses the same parser as the compiler
2020-05-17 03:36:58 xq so if your file compiles, the formatter will definitly not fuck up your code
2020-05-17 03:37:09 xq i've seen worse (clang-format)
2020-05-17 03:37:12 styan The fact that Zig comes with a build system, code formatter, C transpiler, C compiler, etc. is also something that rubs me the wrong way. :-)
2020-05-17 03:37:26 xq which fucks up your files royally
2020-05-17 03:37:32 styan It is not that I think it will mess it up, I just do not like it.
2020-05-17 03:37:36 xq ah
2020-05-17 03:37:37 xq :D
2020-05-17 03:37:50 xq zig comes with libclang for header import, so it's not that hard to just export clang_main :D
2020-05-17 03:37:52 ⚡ styan is a control freak
2020-05-17 03:37:56 xq i see
2020-05-17 03:38:20 xq and i really should go to bed, would love to continue a discussion about pros and especially (non-personal) cons for zig
2020-05-17 03:38:30 xq so we can improve that stuff!
2020-05-17 03:38:37 makeworld This gurl thing is gonna get confusing :)
2020-05-17 03:38:40 xq gn8 (or whatever is appropriate at your place)
2020-05-17 03:38:46 xq makeworld: yeah *rofl*
2020-05-17 03:38:54 makeworld If you haven't seen the mailing list, there's now two tools that do the same thing, with the same name
2020-05-17 03:38:56 makeworld Lolol
2020-05-17 03:38:56 xq but i could not resist to hijack this thread
2020-05-17 03:39:35 styan xq: I would like that. As I said, I *wanted* to like zig, so you have a good starting spot.
2020-05-17 03:42:50 styan xq: Maybe you could make a #zig channel, if more people are interesting in talking about it?
2020-05-17 03:43:16 xq has quit (Ping timeout: 120 seconds)
2020-05-17 03:44:14 makeworld julienxx: Could you post the castor settings file you use for the screenshots in the README?
2020-05-17 03:44:33 makeworld It looks so good and it's annoying not to have it :)
2020-05-17 03:44:51 makeworld Maybe you could put it in the repo along with that flowery one
2020-05-17 03:44:59 styan Sorry for filling #gemini with ziglang talk, I hope it was not obnoxious.
2020-05-17 03:50:38 makeworld No worries
2020-05-17 03:53:27 makeworld Is anyone here opposed to me putting chat logs on gemini?
2020-05-17 03:53:54 makeworld tiwesdaeg: ^^
2020-05-17 03:56:07 ~tiwesdaeg Go for it
2020-05-17 03:56:28 makeworld Thanks!
2020-05-17 04:10:09 styan makeworld: I wonder, does your name come from FreeBSD?
2020-05-17 04:10:48 makeworld Haha no, I've never even used FreeBSD. Remind me again why it makes you think that? I think I've heard someone say that before
2020-05-17 04:11:33 styan Because part of building FreeBSD is `make world'
2020-05-17 04:14:21 styan makeworld: https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/makeworld.html
2020-05-17 04:15:04 styan Look, there is your name in the URL! :-)
2020-05-17 04:15:09 makeworld Aha, that's cool
2020-05-17 04:15:26 makeworld I try to keep with the world theme I guess, my laptop's hostname is earth
2020-05-17 04:15:30 makeworld And my server's is jupiter
2020-05-17 04:17:41 styan That is neat. My laptop's hostname is localhost, because at some point Firefox was sending my hostname to DNS to try and find an X server.
2020-05-17 04:18:04 styan Now that I think of it, I could have just added my hostname to /etc/hosts.
2020-05-17 04:32:40 makeworld Test
2020-05-17 04:32:51 makeworld Aha, IRC logs work!
2020-05-17 04:33:01 makeworld gemini://makeworld.gq/cgi-bin/gemini-irc
2020-05-17 04:34:33 styan Are they suppose to be backwards?
2020-05-17 04:35:28 styan They switched around.
2020-05-17 04:35:43 styan Oh, a comment.
2020-05-17 04:36:15 makeworld Yeah I originally made it in reverse order so you wouldn't have to scroll to the bottom
2020-05-17 04:36:22 makeworld But that's crazy hard to read
2020-05-17 04:37:28 styan Appending is probably faster too, on most file-systems.
2020-05-17 04:37:58 makeworld Yeah well the original file is appended. I just was just was using `tac` to reverse it in a shell script
2020-05-17 04:38:08 makeworld Now I'm just using `tail -n 100`
2020-05-17 04:38:56 styan Huh, tac(1), another weird GNU utility that I did not know exists.
2020-05-17 04:39:41 styan I am going to write a portable one in awk(1).
2020-05-17 04:46:16 makeworld Yeah it was weird to find out it exists, but sometimes it's exactly what you need
2020-05-17 04:46:46 makeworld My server is up finally: gemini://makeworld.gq
2020-05-17 04:57:53 makeworld tiwesdaeg: Your site is... interesting lol
2020-05-17 04:57:55 makeworld I love it
2020-05-17 04:59:30 login nice
2020-05-17 04:59:43 login how to browse gemini over tor?
2020-05-17 05:02:33 styan SOCKS/transparent proxy?
2020-05-17 05:16:18 styan makeworld: https://tildegit.org/styan/tac
2020-05-17 05:21:48 makeworld Scary stuff
2020-05-17 05:21:55 makeworld Good job I guess haha
2020-05-17 05:25:17 styan Oh, nl(1) is POSIX: cat -- file ... | nl -ba | sort -rn | sed 's/[[:blank:]]*[0-9][0-9]*[[:blank:]]//'
2020-05-17 05:30:55 styan makeworld: Oh, if that is scary did you miss that I wrote a Gemini client in AWK? :-)
2020-05-17 07:03:21 ▬▬▶ admicos has joined #gemini
2020-05-17 08:05:16 ▬▬▶ kaoD has joined #gemini
2020-05-17 08:05:23 kaoD hi!
2020-05-17 08:06:17 styan Hello!
2020-05-17 08:08:49 quinnj login: try launching whatever client you're using with torsocks(1)
2020-05-17 08:09:24 admicos \o
2020-05-17 08:09:53 quinnj also hi
2020-05-17 08:41:10 @julienxx Hello
2020-05-17 08:43:45 @julienxx makeworld: it’s my GTK theme, not Castor settings. I can upload it if you want
2020-05-17 08:44:25 @julienxx tomasino: I’ll update the fence parsing, I love the proposal with art/code...
2020-05-17 08:58:31 jan6 btw @ the spec ambiguity mentioned in the list, /me fully supports allowing of either \n OR \r\n endings, just throwing that out here, despite spec-craftin' punk's not here
2020-05-17 09:19:12 styan jan6: Considering the '\r' is optional on gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/ itself, I think that is a good decision :-)
2020-05-17 10:10:47 @julienxx tomasino: pushed 0.8.7 to allow for simpler fence matching
2020-05-17 10:13:47 @julienxx added ```art and ```description to gemini://typed-hole.org front page to test, I think I really like this idea.
2020-05-17 10:41:44 ▬▬▶ xq has joined #gemini
2020-05-17 10:57:28 xq hey
2020-05-17 11:02:41 jan6 yeh
2020-05-17 11:03:00 ⚡ jan6 wants a server but has nothing to put on said server
2020-05-17 11:03:11 jan6 classic jan6 problem
2020-05-17 11:03:46 jan6 I could make cool pages, but I have nothing to put into the cool pages...
2020-05-17 11:04:00 xq hey jan6
2020-05-17 11:04:55 jan6 ahoy
2020-05-17 11:08:07 @tomasino Awesome, I'll download the latest build and start using the fencing hints on black
2020-05-17 11:14:12 cmccabe gemini://neat-bash-tricks-by-jan6.xyz
2020-05-17 11:23:17 @tomasino would be a thing
2020-05-17 11:23:23 @tomasino people would read it and get value
2020-05-17 11:24:02 @tomasino my code fencing in fox's gemspace now have the art/desc stuff too
2020-05-17 11:24:29 @tomasino and thanks to makeworld for getting a gemini irc backlog generating
2020-05-17 11:34:16 @tomasino new client update works great julienxx !
2020-05-17 11:40:02 @julienxx Cool, I also made a small change to prefer ipv4 for connection given the choice, it has resolved issues connecting to some servers for me. Let me know if you have more connection errors than before.
2020-05-17 11:41:41 xq julienxx: do you try all IPs from the DNS resolving
2020-05-17 11:43:50 @julienxx Not really, so far I only encountered one ipv4 and one ipv6 for a given domain at most
2020-05-17 11:44:13 @tomasino what is the symbol for lists?
2020-05-17 11:44:16 @tomasino i thought it was -
2020-05-17 11:44:17 @julienxx If there are several the first one will be used
2020-05-17 11:44:54 @tomasino i have some list entries in my latest article, but castor isn't changing their prefix for me when i tweak the settings
2020-05-17 11:44:58 @julienxx tomasino: It’s star
2020-05-17 11:45:01 @tomasino ahh
2020-05-17 11:45:02 @tomasino okay
2020-05-17 11:45:05 @tomasino lemme fix!
2020-05-17 11:45:26 @julienxx Great article by the way!
2020-05-17 11:46:34 @tomasino thank you!
2020-05-17 11:46:45 @tomasino it will never be mirrored to my other protocol sites
2020-05-17 11:46:50 @tomasino unique gemini stuffs!
2020-05-17 11:49:41 jan6 heh
2020-05-17 11:49:59 jan6 why not have a secret password protected mirror on other protocols?
2020-05-17 11:50:34 @tomasino the goal is to add unique content to gemini to increase its value
2020-05-17 11:50:39 @tomasino any cross-posting lowers that
2020-05-17 11:50:46 jan6 like view gemini page to see the password is "geminirocks1965" and then go to http://gemini.yoursite/geminirocks1965/awesome-article-here
2020-05-17 11:51:06 @tomasino that made it hard for me to figure out what to put on gemini in the first place, since i just put whatever i want on gopher
2020-05-17 12:06:12 jan6 put half article on gemini, half on gopher ;P
2020-05-17 12:06:21 jan6 cut it up at the most interesting part ;P
2020-05-17 12:06:37 @tomasino tell jokes on gopher but the punchlines are all on gemini
2020-05-17 12:06:41 @tomasino riddles too!
2020-05-17 12:10:20 jan6 lol
2020-05-17 12:19:58 ▬▬▶ lanodan has joined #gemini
2020-05-17 12:34:17 @julienxx https://git.sr.ht/~ft/gemnine anybody uses plan9?
2020-05-17 12:36:21 ~tiwesdaeg I thought about the idea of a plan9 tilde once
2020-05-17 12:36:31 ~tiwesdaeg even got as far as installing it on a vps
2020-05-17 12:36:49 ▬▬▶ lucidiot has joined #gemini
2020-05-17 12:37:29 jan6 why're you stop?
2020-05-17 12:40:35 @tomasino There's been desire for a plan9 tilde for years
2020-05-17 12:40:50 @tomasino If you have the know how to make it happen you'll be quite popular
2020-05-17 12:54:24 jan6 *why'd you stop, still?
2020-05-17 12:54:37 jan6 who cares if you KNOW how to do stuff, you'll learn!
2020-05-17 12:54:41 xq was the topic of "data uploads" via gemini discussed on the mailing list already?
2020-05-17 12:55:13 jan6 hm, check the archives? I've not been on for long and it's not been discussed in the last few days
2020-05-17 12:57:38 xq well, i just asked on the ML :D
2020-05-17 12:57:45 xq had another question regarding line endings as well
2020-05-17 13:15:24 jan6 guess who replied ;P
2020-05-17 13:16:05 xq heh
2020-05-17 13:16:16 xq yeah i know the reasons ;)
2020-05-17 13:16:29 xq my question was more why the spec says <CR><LF>
2020-05-17 13:23:14 @tomasino i believe solderpunk mentioned last night in his responses that he'd be addressing this to make it <LF> only as optional, but not until the spec unfreezes
2020-05-17 13:23:23 @tomasino it was discussed, but never written down
2020-05-17 13:23:51 @tomasino regarding uploads, that was an early discussion and i think there were some pretty heavy feelings on the subject, but i don't recall the reasoning
2020-05-17 13:23:55 @tomasino i'm sure someone will chime in
2020-05-17 13:32:07 ~tiwesdaeg eh, plan9 was just so foreign to me
2020-05-17 13:33:05 ~tiwesdaeg just attempting to use the text editor acme, felt like trying to read a chinese translation of harry potter
2020-05-17 13:33:31 ~tiwesdaeg I did get the gopher client installed
2020-05-17 13:34:04 ~tiwesdaeg I'm trying to catch up on the mailing list
2020-05-17 13:34:28 ~tiwesdaeg I was so distracted last night upgrading pink to netbsd 9.0
2020-05-17 13:35:50 @tomasino yeah, i'm still playing around with crap and i have a bunch of work to do today
2020-05-17 13:36:17 ~tiwesdaeg I've already been assigned three different tasks by my wife
2020-05-17 13:38:10 ~tiwesdaeg also, jan6, what is tilde.ninja?
2020-05-17 13:39:01 jan6 tilde.team's alias
2020-05-17 13:39:04 jan6 the coolest one ;P
2020-05-17 13:39:12 jan6 also tilde.pizza and fuckup.club
2020-05-17 13:40:03 jan6 unlike some, it's a full alias so you can use https://jan6.tilde.ninja/banner.jpg and whatnot
2020-05-17 13:40:12 jan6 instead of tilde.team
2020-05-17 13:40:55 ~tiwesdaeg ahhh
2020-05-17 13:41:27 ~tiwesdaeg also, http://9front.org/
2020-05-17 13:41:43 ~tiwesdaeg that's what I installed on a vps
2020-05-17 13:41:57 ~tiwesdaeg they're keeping plan9 alive
2020-05-17 13:46:39 xq tiwesdaeg: i tried ACME and it's really alien
2020-05-17 13:46:49 xq but the ideas are great and using it is quite a joy
2020-05-17 13:47:04 @tomasino the company that makes holes?
2020-05-17 13:47:43 @tomasino https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQ1ygyUQZik
2020-05-17 13:51:24 xq tomasino: ACME is the Editor of Plan9
2020-05-17 13:51:39 @tomasino oooh, fun
2020-05-17 13:51:51 @tomasino i'll learn about these things when the plan9 tilde launches
2020-05-17 13:51:52 @tomasino :D
2020-05-17 13:57:09 ▬▬▶ jba has joined #gemini
2020-05-17 13:58:06 jan6 ACME is A Company that Makes Everything
2020-05-17 13:58:09 jan6 including holes
2020-05-17 14:03:01 xq yeah, true as well :D
2020-05-17 14:21:19 ~tiwesdaeg haha
2020-05-17 14:21:31 ~tiwesdaeg will it ever launch?
2020-05-17 14:21:45 ~tiwesdaeg also 9term is interesting
2020-05-17 14:22:18 ~tiwesdaeg the remote interface for plan9 is gui from the get go
2020-05-17 14:25:25 @julienxx Okay trying to setup a shared 9front instance for fun, let's see how it goes
2020-05-17 14:26:03 ~tiwesdaeg julienxx: I've already forgotten all the hurdles
2020-05-17 14:26:09 ~tiwesdaeg I just remember pain
2020-05-17 14:27:03 @julienxx hahaha just an experiment for now and as any experiment I expect total failure
2020-05-17 14:31:20 ▬▬▶ acdw has joined #gemini
2020-05-17 14:36:58 ~tiwesdaeg that's how mine went
2020-05-17 14:37:15 ~tiwesdaeg I mean, I had it running, but administering it?
2020-05-17 14:49:54 ~tiwesdaeg woo, we are currently the 9th largest channel on tilde.chat
2020-05-17 15:01:51 @tomasino oh yeah?
2020-05-17 15:01:51 @tomasino nice
2020-05-17 15:14:01 jan6 noice
2020-05-17 15:15:33 login noce
2020-05-17 15:34:21 tiwesdaeg has quit (Ping timeout: 120 seconds)
2020-05-17 15:43:42 quinnj i wrote a little emacs major mode for text/gemini documents
2020-05-17 15:43:57 quinnj and i have to say, my relationship with emacs has only worsened
2020-05-17 15:45:44 ▬▬▶ tiwesdaeg has joined #gemini
2020-05-17 15:45:44 ℹ Mode #gemini [+qo tiwesdaeg tiwesdaeg] by ChanServ
2020-05-17 16:19:35 acdw has quit (Client exited)
2020-05-17 16:22:46 makeworld julienxx: Re: castor theme: I didn't realize it was your GTK theme, huh. I'd appreciate getting a castor settings file for it anyway, but only if you can no worries. I think I should be able to do it myself if I use a colour picker on the screenshot
2020-05-17 16:27:17 @julienxx makeworld: here is my gtk config https://juliensharing.s3.amazonaws.com/gtk_irix_theme.zip
2020-05-17 16:27:27 @julienxx it should be enough
2020-05-17 16:30:40 makeworld Thanks, I'll check it out!
2020-05-17 17:02:53 lucidiot has quit (Client exited)
2020-05-17 18:13:58 ▬▬▶ sloum has joined #gemini
2020-05-17 18:18:42 sloum quit
2020-05-17 18:18:44 sloum has quit (Client exited)
2020-05-17 18:25:53 ~tiwesdaeg haha
2020-05-17 18:33:20 quinnj i finished setting up my webbed sight, if anyone wants to look at an empty website gemini://hckrenbywyjcqxbhhsfel5md7uwmdtggcmxsp4u35xwudlw2ybpg3qyd.onion.to/
2020-05-17 18:44:41 jan6 hehe
2020-05-17 18:44:55 jan6 is that the first gemini site on tor?
2020-05-17 18:46:15 login quinnj: how to make ff support tor?
2020-05-17 18:46:23 login w/o torsocks
2020-05-17 18:46:28 jan6 you don't
2020-05-17 18:46:41 jan6 your only way is to use torsocks, or similar, to make a socks proxy
2020-05-17 18:46:49 jan6 otherwise just use the tor browser
2020-05-17 18:46:52 login also, how 2 make a hidden service with a locked router
2020-05-17 18:46:53 jan6 which is pretty much firefox
2020-05-17 18:46:54 ~tiwesdaeg I had tilde.pink gopherd running on tor a while back
2020-05-17 18:47:15 jan6 also don't be stupid and search it yourself
2020-05-17 18:47:23 login tor browser supports no gemini
2020-05-17 18:47:27 jan6 locked router means you can't do it from home
2020-05-17 18:47:37 jan6 neither does firefox, login
2020-05-17 18:47:57 login no search, dont call names regardless of truth/opinion
2020-05-17 18:48:02 jan6 unless there's another ff you didn't bother to explain
2020-05-17 18:48:27 jan6 I only warned to not BE, I didn't call YOU stupid ;P
2020-05-17 18:48:43 login no search will help with locked router
2020-05-17 18:48:55 jan6 if it doesn't, neither can anyone here
2020-05-17 18:48:59 jan6 simple
2020-05-17 18:49:04 login well
2020-05-17 18:49:11 jan6 you can always forward to some other server
2020-05-17 18:49:19 jan6 ssh -R port redirect is a thing
2020-05-17 18:49:23 login there is a port upnp function
2020-05-17 18:49:30 jan6 but at that point, why not host directly on that server
2020-05-17 18:49:37 jan6 so? just use that?
2020-05-17 18:49:37 login but it doesnt do anythibg
2020-05-17 18:49:45 jan6 if it's a function, it does something
2020-05-17 18:49:56 jan6 if it's enabled, that is
2020-05-17 18:50:00 login any way to use a port on another server but hqve it e2e?
2020-05-17 18:50:08 jan6 ssh
2020-05-17 18:50:16 login i.e. server cant read the mag at all
2020-05-17 18:50:28 jan6 if server can't read it, how can the client?
2020-05-17 18:50:41 login client decrypts
2020-05-17 18:50:53 jan6 but how do you make it decryptable by client, but not server?
2020-05-17 18:51:16 login exactly, cant be done
2020-05-17 18:51:35 jan6 it can if you have pre-shared secrets, but otherwise of course not
2020-05-17 18:51:45 login anyway, will you work for Bolt?
2020-05-17 18:51:54 jan6 you are as always, asking ridiculous theoretical quastions you alreayd know the answer of
2020-05-17 18:52:02 jan6 only if they ask me to
2020-05-17 18:53:05 login can you solve
2020-05-17 18:53:22 jan6 what
2020-05-17 18:53:47 jan6 also this isn't the channel for completely unrelated chat
2020-05-17 18:55:23 ⚡ tiwesdaeg slaps jan6
2020-05-17 18:55:26 ~tiwesdaeg be nice
2020-05-17 18:56:22 ⚡ jan6 slaps tiwesdaeg back
2020-05-17 18:56:26 jan6 I am
2020-05-17 19:01:20 login https://codingcompetitions.withgoogle.com/kickstart/round/000000000019ff43/
2020-05-17 19:01:39 login solve these 4 ^ especially 1 and 2
2020-05-17 19:15:35 @tomasino Gotta double check black
2020-05-17 19:15:49 @tomasino I may have enabled 1965 for tor
2020-05-17 19:16:02 login 1965 port?
2020-05-17 19:16:13 @tomasino Yep
2020-05-17 19:16:18 login 1984 would be a cooler port
2020-05-17 19:16:31 @tomasino But that wouldn't be for Gemini
2020-05-17 19:16:33 login tor invented in 1965?
2020-05-17 19:16:39 login *gemini
2020-05-17 19:32:10 xq sloum will be happy if he hears what i do in gurl :D Asking the user for permissions when creating config directories and such instead of just silently doing it
2020-05-17 19:32:50 @tomasino 1965 is enabled on black via tor
2020-05-17 19:32:57 @tomasino Has anyone tried it?
2020-05-17 20:10:16 ▬▬▶ jan has joined #gemini
2020-05-17 20:28:25 xq tomasino, i don't have a tor node running
2020-05-17 20:29:49 ▬▬▶ benoliver999 has joined #gemini
2020-05-17 20:36:06 cmccabe i tried with bombadillo over torsocks and got connection refused
2020-05-17 21:57:18 ▬▬▶ plugd has joined #gemini
2020-05-17 21:59:56 plugd has quit (Client exited)
2020-05-17 22:28:31 @tomasino poop
2020-05-17 22:28:52 @tomasino i dunno if there's anything weird about the handshakey bits or if it's just a config in tor being wrong
2020-05-17 23:03:56 styan tomasino: I can connect but "This server does not allow proxy requests" for the onion address.
2020-05-17 23:06:33 styan Connecting manually and typing "gemini://tilde.black/\r\n" works.
2020-05-17 23:23:05 @tomasino hmm
2020-05-17 23:23:23 @tomasino HiddenServicePort 1965 127.0.0.1:1965
2020-05-17 23:23:32 @tomasino maybe i need to point it at the domain instead of 127...
2020-05-17 23:23:52 styan That response was from jetforce
2020-05-17 23:25:33 styan It has the same response for localhost and 127.0.0.1.
2020-05-17 23:26:15 kaoD has quit (Connection closed)
2020-05-17 23:27:42 styan ``printf 'gemini://localhost/\r\n' | nc -c -T noverify -T noname localhost 1965'' -> "53 This server does not allow proxy requests"
2020-05-17 23:29:03 xq conman is really pushing my project without even knowing :D
2020-05-17 23:29:10 ⚡ xq now has TOFU implemented in gurl
2020-05-17 23:29:23 @tomasino okay, lemme try this...
2020-05-17 23:29:26 ⚡ xq also sent a bug report to the maintainer of BearSSL as i found undefined behaviour in the library
2020-05-17 23:29:58 @tomasino any luck now, styan? i tried it by name
2020-05-17 23:32:30 xq has quit (Client exited)
2020-05-17 23:43:08 @tomasino so what aggregators are people using?
2020-05-17 23:44:28 styan tomasino: Nope. This setting might help: https://github.com/michael-lazar/jetforce/blob/master/jetforce.py#L158
2020-05-18 00:30:05 epoch how should I setup gemini behind an onion? I can't get a valid cert
2020-05-18 00:31:23 styan epoch: Self-signed certificate, or just rely on Tor's encryption?
2020-05-18 00:31:53 epoch I probably need to look into how plaintext gemini is supposed to work.
2020-05-18 00:32:41 styan Most clients probably accept self-signed certificates.
2020-05-18 00:33:18 epoch would be neat if letsencrypt could sign onions
2020-05-18 00:35:09 styan I know tilde.black uses a self-signed certificate.
2020-05-18 00:36:17 styan (for gemini)
2020-05-18 00:37:29 epoch would be neat if I could set a DNS record for the domains listed in my clear-net certs that also says "and we also host this onion service we want any certificate pointing at us to be valid for"
2020-05-18 00:38:08 epoch like, onion.thebackupbox.net CNAME fgc2df7jssqt7adacvhinvwdjmn4gwfp6fqxczxunw4qtb37554yexyd.onion
2020-05-18 00:38:21 epoch which would make any certs that are valid for thebackupbox.net also valid for the CNAME'd onion
2020-05-18 00:38:49 epoch but I don't think browsers would want to support something like that
2020-05-18 00:38:56 epoch or ssl libraries?
2020-05-18 00:39:06 styan Though you probably do not even need TLS for onion addresses.
2020-05-18 00:39:17 epoch I know.
2020-05-18 00:39:24 epoch but is there a plaintext version of gemini?
2020-05-18 00:40:22 styan Not really, no.
2020-05-18 00:40:56 epoch then I do need TLS for an onion if I'm serving gemini
2020-05-18 00:42:08 epoch yer, "Use of TLS for Gemini transactions is mandatory."
2020-05-18 00:44:05 epoch for some reason gemini://hckrenbywyjcqxbhhsfel5md7uwmdtggcmxsp4u35xwudlw2ybpg3qyd.onion/ isn't working in castor
2020-05-18 00:45:40 styan Are you using torsocks(1) or some other proxying?
2020-05-18 00:46:14 epoch os error 22
2020-05-18 00:46:22 epoch transparent proxy I'm pretty sure...
2020-05-18 00:46:23 styan It works with my clients using torsocks(1), if that helps.
2020-05-18 00:47:25 epoch it might just be my setup is borked
2020-05-18 00:49:04 epoch openssl s_client is connecting and getting the certs...
2020-05-18 00:50:10 epoch and the exact same request works on my server when not going over tor..
2020-05-18 00:55:53 styan Using `openssl s_client' with torsocks(1) works here, if a bit noisy.
2020-05-18 00:57:02 epoch for some reason firefox with no proxy settings can load the https site on the same onion
2020-05-18 00:57:07 styan Are you remembering to type the carriage-return before the line-feed? You server does not accept just the line-feed.
2020-05-18 00:58:49 epoch yeah
2020-05-18 01:01:28 styan Here is what I did: https://paste.tildeverse.org/?87d1df28d947fd47#FtpwxNzqzzJE615mVBuRqojtHvk5rcBPRriULnZNkk7L
2020-05-18 01:04:37 ⚡ epoch sets up torsocks
2020-05-18 01:07:15 epoch works both with and without torsocks
2020-05-18 01:07:22 epoch on other servers
2020-05-18 01:07:27 epoch mine is just not working for some reason
2020-05-18 01:07:40 styan Oh, try `-noct'
2020-05-18 01:08:13 styan Maybe that is not the default on your version of OpenSSL.
2020-05-18 01:08:27 styan It fails if I set `-ct'
2020-05-18 01:11:41 epoch the crap I have doing the ssl server part is probably borkedish
2020-05-18 01:11:48 epoch maybe my certs just expired or something
2020-05-18 01:12:12 styan Oh, nevermind, I just figured out how to navigate github's blame UI. `-noct' has existed, and been the default, for 4 years.
2020-05-18 01:12:42 epoch expire Jun 20th
2020-05-18 01:13:21 styan The version of openssl I tested with was "OpenSSL 1.1.1g", if that helps.
2020-05-18 01:13:22 epoch right now I'm using socat to do the ssl for both my https and gemini
2020-05-18 01:13:27 epoch so it is probably something wrong with it
2020-05-18 01:13:28 epoch socat openssl-listen:1965,certificate=/etc/letsencrypt/https.crt,key=/etc/letsencrypt/keys/https.key.pem,verify=0,fork,reuseaddr exec:/service/gemini/gemini.sh
2020-05-18 01:14:08 epoch and they're both connecting, sending the server cert, and then disconnecting before any data
2020-05-18 01:22:30 epoch weird that it randomly stopped working
2020-05-18 01:23:24 styan Weirder that it works for me here.
2020-05-18 01:23:48 epoch the socat line as server?
2020-05-18 01:24:05 styan No, reading from your server.
2020-05-18 01:24:09 styan I have zero issues.
2020-05-18 01:24:13 epoch wait. wat?
2020-05-18 01:24:20 epoch the maybe the bug exists on my desktop
2020-05-18 01:24:48 styan Yeah, did you see the pastebin? I got your index.gmi.
2020-05-18 01:25:48 epoch nah, the hck one is somebody else's
2020-05-18 01:26:00 epoch mine is the one that starts with f
2020-05-18 01:26:06 epoch fgc2d...
2020-05-18 01:26:07 styan Oh
2020-05-18 01:26:14 epoch fgc2df7jssqt7adacvhinvwdjmn4gwfp6fqxczxunw4qtb37554yexyd.onion
2020-05-18 01:26:22 epoch gemini://fgc2df7jssqt7adacvhinvwdjmn4gwfp6fqxczxunw4qtb37554yexyd.onion/
2020-05-18 01:26:54 epoch tested client running on another computer
2020-05-18 01:27:06 epoch it is a server-side bug most likely
2020-05-18 01:27:08 styan Does your page start with "wtf"?
2020-05-18 01:27:13 epoch yeah
2020-05-18 01:27:15 epoch wtf?
2020-05-18 01:27:48 ⚡ epoch gets rid of the wtf
2020-05-18 01:28:14 styan "GMI? Genetically Modified... Internet?"
2020-05-18 01:28:26 epoch heh. yer that's my gemini site.
2020-05-18 01:28:53 styan The "wtf?' is lower new.
2020-05-18 01:28:58 styan s/new/now/
2020-05-18 01:29:11 epoch I took out the "echo wtf" that was at the very start so it'd be a valid text/gemini
2020-05-18 01:29:20 epoch hrm. valid gemini protocol*?
2020-05-18 01:29:32 epoch since the 20 mime/type isn't text/gemini
2020-05-18 01:31:08 epoch :/ weird shit
2020-05-18 01:31:48 styan Here is what I get: https://bhh.sh/5u6
2020-05-18 01:34:30 epoch copy-pasted that and it works. wtf is different? :/
2020-05-18 01:34:55 styan What were you doing before?
2020-05-18 01:36:26 epoch ... for some reason adding -quiet makes it work
2020-05-18 01:37:20 styan Strange.
2020-05-18 01:38:51 epoch https://paste.tildeverse.org/?c3b821fa95d1c26f#8p2DYYj8HjGj2ZxDvk5mHT8GVd5VGio3tqKydXevXBYA
2020-05-18 01:38:53 styan Okay, `-quiet' implies `-ign_eof'
2020-05-18 01:39:03 styan And *that* makes it work
2020-05-18 01:40:03 epoch that's ignoring the eof on stdin?
2020-05-18 01:40:13 ⚡ epoch checks man page
2020-05-18 01:40:19 styan It works without if you type it in, but `-ign_eof' prevents it from closing early after printf(1) finishes.
2020-05-18 01:40:32 epoch yeah
2020-05-18 01:40:38 epoch it ignores stdin's eof
2020-05-18 01:40:41 epoch well shit
2020-05-18 01:41:04 styan Anticlimactic.
2020-05-18 01:41:48 styan Like most computer problems.
2020-05-18 01:43:14 ⚡ epoch tells other nerds in the fediverse
2020-05-18 01:44:48 styan If you want further confusion you can try to `printf \\016' in a terminal after you use something that uses ncurses (like vi(1))...
2020-05-18 01:56:16 epoch is that the code that changes character sets?
2020-05-18 01:56:28 epoch I think ^O does something like that too
2020-05-18 01:56:42 epoch I don't remember exactly what ^N is
2020-05-18 01:56:57 styan Yes.
2020-05-18 01:57:20 styan ^O fixes ^N
2020-05-18 01:59:41 styan I found out about those the other week echoing unescaped characters back to myself to test percent-encoding/decoding.
2020-05-18 02:01:16 epoch digicert will do onion certs
2020-05-18 02:03:42 epoch wonder what would happen if I got a cert signed for onion.my.domain, then set the CNAME to the real onion, then pointed a client at onion.my.domain
2020-05-18 02:04:44 epoch I guess I could just CNAME one of the subdomains I already have in the cert to the onion
2020-05-18 02:12:40 epoch seems like it goes through tor to my hidden service and has a valid cert, but requires using a clear-net hostname
2020-05-18 02:47:56 styan epoch: I managed to build castor and tried your site with torsocks(1), and it worked.
2020-05-18 02:48:36 styan Though Castor stops redrawing itself when it is connecting.
2020-05-18 02:57:05 ⚡ epoch git pull ; make in castor
2020-05-18 02:59:03 epoch merp. yeah, it works with torsocks, but not with a transparent proxy
2020-05-18 02:59:49 epoch Could not connect to fgc2df7jssqt7adacvhinvwdjmn4gwfp6fqxczxunw4qtb37554yexyd.onioninvalid argument (os error 22)
2020-05-18 02:59:52 epoch bah
2020-05-18 03:00:18 epoch "Could not connect to fgc2df7jssqt7adacvhinvwdjmn4gwfp6fqxczxunw4qtb37554yexyd.onion:1965 invalid argument (os error 22)"
2020-05-18 03:00:42 styan Getting onion addresses working with a transparent proxy is something that I was never able to figure out entirely.
2020-05-18 03:01:09 epoch my transparent proxy works for most things, just not castor atm
2020-05-18 03:01:19 styan Strange.
2020-05-18 03:01:57 styan In other news, I build castor, and it was painful.
2020-05-18 03:02:39 styan My version of LibreSSL is too new for it, the package it was using added support on May 9th, while the latest release is May 7th.
2020-05-18 03:04:23 styan Even with OPENSSL_DIR and OPENSSL_LIB_DIR set, the final linking command kept trying to link LibreSSL with Castor.
2020-05-18 03:04:44 styan So I copied the command it spit out and manually edited it.
2020-05-18 03:07:11 epoch it is probably trying to do IPv6 transparent proxy
2020-05-18 03:07:20 epoch which might not be setup right
2020-05-18 03:08:31 epoch oh. it works now.
2020-05-18 03:08:44 epoch I think I forgot a make install
2020-05-18 03:08:52 epoch after pulling the newest version
2020-05-18 03:32:00 ⚡ epoch AFKs
2020-05-18 04:03:19 smoerk has quit (The TLS connection was non-properly terminated.)
2020-05-18 04:03:22 ▬▬▶ smoerk has joined #gemini
2020-05-18 05:33:51 makeworld I got some server stats up!
2020-05-18 05:33:58 makeworld gemini://makeworld.gq/cgi-bin/stats
2020-05-18 05:34:09 makeworld Does anyone know of any other servers that have stats?
2020-05-18 05:34:32 makeworld Not just checking if I'm the first lol, I'm wondering if there's more I can add
2020-05-18 05:48:39 makeworld julienxx: Version 0.8.7 of Castor crashes when I click bookmarks
2020-05-18 05:51:33 styan Oh yeah, when I tried it I made a bookmark of the bookmarks page and that made it crash when you open bookmarks
2020-05-18 05:57:20 makeworld I don't even have any bookmarks, it was a fresh install with no config
2020-05-18 05:57:25 makeworld But nice work lol
2020-05-18 06:42:25 styan makeworld: The last entry in your `one-liners.gmi' made me think of this: https://i.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/dtect/
2020-05-18 06:55:56 epoch bytebeats is what they're called
2020-05-18 07:04:32 styan epoch: That is really cool.
2020-05-18 07:05:20 styan There is a high probability of me writing a `glitch:' implementation.
2020-05-18 07:11:27 @julienxx makeworld: weird I don't have issues with bookmarks, let me try without any maybe
2020-05-18 07:12:44 @julienxx hmm no problem without a bookmarks file
2020-05-18 07:14:09 epoch ? daheck is "glitch:"?
2020-05-18 07:14:11 ⚡ epoch looks up stuff
2020-05-18 07:14:59 styan epoch: The last paragraph of http://canonical.org/%7Ekragen/bytebeat/
2020-05-18 07:18:41 epoch seems like a glitch URI could be better done with a data URI
2020-05-18 07:19:14 styan Either way, it is a stack machine, and I am in. :-)
2020-05-18 07:19:39 epoch data:application/glitch,<data>
2020-05-18 07:20:20 epoch the example glitch://data would have the data as the authority section which bugs me.
2020-05-18 07:21:10 styan It seems to be a multi-line file format.
2020-05-18 07:21:46 styan application/x-glitch
2020-05-18 07:21:56 ▬▬▶ lucidiot has joined #gemini
2020-05-18 07:41:33 epoch you can put %0a
2020-05-18 07:41:34 epoch :P
2020-05-18 07:42:10 styan You got me there :-)
2020-05-18 07:50:51 styan epoch: You were right about it, I was confused because it defines "newline" as '!'.
2020-05-18 07:52:22 lucidiot has quit (Client exited)
2020-05-18 09:45:52 epoch would it be handy to have a iana urn namespace which subnamespaces like...
2020-05-18 09:46:00 epoch ip4, asn, ip6, tld ?
2020-05-18 09:50:14 epoch offtopic anyway
2020-05-18 10:08:44 ▬▬▶ xq has joined #gemini
2020-05-18 10:40:14 quinnj has quit (Client exited)
2020-05-18 11:19:56 @julienxx Browsing Gemini from 9front https://mastodon.sdf.org/system/media_attachments/files/007/049/840/original/7eb4b5b035ad6797.png this is cool
2020-05-18 11:36:46 xq neat!
2020-05-18 11:37:06 ⚡ xq is laughing way too hard at <dot> auf jeden fall würde ich empfehlen, dass ihr euch von dem gedanken löst, dass man eine engine braucht um ein spiel zu schreiben
2020-05-18 11:37:06 xq <dot> das ist nicht der fall
2020-05-18 11:37:08 xq damn :D
2020-05-18 11:37:10 xq paste fail
2020-05-18 11:37:13 xq https://www.theolognion.com/
2020-05-18 11:43:26 @tomasino haha
2020-05-18 11:43:30 @tomasino i was like... um...
2020-05-18 11:44:50 xq this site is great satire
2020-05-18 11:49:01 @tomasino haha
2020-05-18 11:49:03 @tomasino this is really good
2020-05-18 11:51:35 @tomasino net news convo brought up the idea of patching gemini support into lynx
2020-05-18 11:51:40 @tomasino i likes it
2020-05-18 11:51:44 @tomasino i likes it a lots
2020-05-18 11:52:09 xq hehe
2020-05-18 11:52:47 xq if everything works well, i can get client certificate support into my gemini client today
2020-05-18 11:53:02 xq when this works, i can finally start writing a nicer frontend for that
2020-05-18 11:53:17 xq do you know of any service that uses this already?
2020-05-18 11:53:40 @tomasino not sure
2020-05-18 11:55:47 xq i really love the idea of client certificates
2020-05-18 11:55:59 xq allows a really fine grained control for identiy management
2020-05-18 11:57:10 login yeah, client certificates are really good
2020-05-18 11:57:15 login especially if they can be remotely loaded
2020-05-18 11:57:23 login like from a flash drive
2020-05-18 12:45:21 ~tiwesdaeg man, I can't keep up wih compiling all this high paced development gemini software
2020-05-18 12:46:11 @tomasino what pages are you all bookmarking, or visiting regularly?
2020-05-18 12:46:18 @tomasino are there a few main aggregators pulling stuff in?
2020-05-18 12:46:23 @tomasino i want to get in to the reading habit
2020-05-18 12:50:41 ~tiwesdaeg test
2020-05-18 12:50:50 ~tiwesdaeg man, I can't keep up wih compiling all this high paced development gemini software
2020-05-18 12:51:39 xq login: true! after gurl i want to write a graphical client with support for gemini text rendering and a well-done approach on client certificate management
2020-05-18 12:51:56 xq tiwesdaeg: everything worked well, last message appeared twice, splitted by a test
2020-05-18 12:53:31 ~tiwesdaeg oh, weird
2020-05-18 12:53:39 ~tiwesdaeg I never saw it send, so I resent
2020-05-18 12:53:50 ~tiwesdaeg I'm not sure what weechat is on about this morning
2020-05-18 12:54:49 ~tiwesdaeg I want easy client certificates so I can easily try out that tomagotchi plant site
2020-05-18 12:54:55 ~tiwesdaeg I forget the name
2020-05-18 12:56:47 xq huh ,tamagotchi plant site? :D
2020-05-18 12:58:33 ~tiwesdaeg I forget the name. Something about space plants?
2020-05-18 12:59:03 ~tiwesdaeg I dunno, you use a client certificate to identify and then tend so a virtual plant
2020-05-18 12:59:10 ~tiwesdaeg s/so/to
2020-05-18 12:59:51 ~tiwesdaeg gemini://astrobotany.mozz.us
2020-05-18 13:03:35 xq thanks, a new test vector!
2020-05-18 13:23:32 admicos writing a (yet another) client, anyone have any suggestions for the page styling? https://files.ecmelberk.com/img/1589808074.png
2020-05-18 13:35:20 @julienxx tomasino: I visit astrobotany to water my plant, then capcom and spacewalk usually (both available on gemini.circumlunar.space).
2020-05-18 13:36:21 @julienxx admicos using a webview?
2020-05-18 13:36:30 admicos nope
2020-05-18 13:36:35 admicos gtkdrawingarea + airo
2020-05-18 13:36:37 admicos cairo*
2020-05-18 13:37:09 @julienxx looks very slick!
2020-05-18 13:38:05 admicos thanks
2020-05-18 13:38:51 admicos i've mostly gone for looks until now, interactivity is going to be a little harder as I'll probably need to implement all the in-content navigation myself
2020-05-18 13:39:02 admicos currently you can only click on links, otherwise it's a static image
2020-05-18 13:39:35 admicos (oh also scrolling, but that's just a wrapper over the content widget, everything outside is still being drawn. might need to clip that depending on performance)
2020-05-18 13:41:18 jan6 lol @ theolognion
2020-05-18 13:42:39 @julienxx admicos: which language are you using?
2020-05-18 13:42:44 admicos rust with relm
2020-05-18 13:47:09 @julienxx cool I initially started Castor with relm but had issues and switched to gtk-rs directly
2020-05-18 13:48:00 admicos yeah, relm is a little finicky
2020-05-18 13:51:52 @tomasino ahh, perfect. thanks julien
2020-05-18 14:29:13 ~tiwesdaeg /buffer 2
2020-05-18 14:29:23 ~tiwesdaeg I have been doing that a lot lately
2020-05-18 14:32:42 ▬▬▶ wangofett has joined #gemini
2020-05-18 14:35:48 wangofett has quit (Client exited)
2020-05-18 14:36:43 ▬▬▶ wangofett has joined #gemini
2020-05-18 14:44:00 ~tiwesdaeg maybe it's time to move my weather station over to the gemini protocol from gopher
2020-05-18 14:44:49 @tomasino could be cool. Nice reliable utf-8
2020-05-18 14:45:40 ~tiwesdaeg I'd have to redo a lot of it
2020-05-18 15:02:55 xq admicos: sweet!
2020-05-18 15:03:04 xq I still consider what toolkit i want to use
2020-05-18 15:03:18 xq how's GTK in general? good experience?
2020-05-18 15:04:18 admicos gtk is good if you want to stick with *nix, as windows builds can be painful and won't integrate well
2020-05-18 15:05:01 admicos plus, i use relm on top of gtk, which is still on beta, but if you want to use raw gtk calls (or something like glade), it should work pretty well
2020-05-18 15:05:29 xq yeah, im Zig coder, not using Rust, so pure C apis are the one for me
2020-05-18 15:05:55 xq but sadly, there aren't many good C-based UI toolkits
2020-05-18 15:06:37 admicos the only (good) ui toolkits i know of are: gtk, qt, and electon (if you count it)
2020-05-18 15:06:52 admicos qt is c++, electon is (ugh) js
2020-05-18 15:07:02 admicos maybe wxwidgets or fltk, though i haven't used them
2020-05-18 15:07:47 xq yeah
2020-05-18 15:08:02 xq Qt is just "too big" for my taste, even if i like working with it
2020-05-18 15:08:14 xq gtk looks really sweet, i love the style of modern GTK
2020-05-18 15:08:23 xq it's really unique, but very usable
2020-05-18 15:08:25 admicos qt is an entire c++ stdlib on it's own, right?
2020-05-18 15:08:27 admicos with qstrings and stuff
2020-05-18 15:08:29 xq yeah
2020-05-18 15:08:40 xq And yeah. Electron is … Electron
2020-05-18 15:08:56 admicos i actually considered just using opengl+sdl, but having to re-implement literally everything can be a pain
2020-05-18 15:09:08 admicos integration with the host os becomes especially difficult
2020-05-18 15:09:35 xq do you know Dear ImGui?
2020-05-18 15:09:46 admicos yep
2020-05-18 15:10:00 xq with SDL, it's a quite a joy
2020-05-18 15:10:04 xq and the feature set is nice
2020-05-18 15:10:23 admicos that might be good with a little bit of style tweaking, but i'm not entirely sure on it's input handling, accessibility, etc.
2020-05-18 15:10:34 admicos i remember it as more of a debugging tool than a complete ui toolkit
2020-05-18 15:10:37 admicos might be false, though
2020-05-18 15:11:44 xq i've written complete UI Applications with it
2020-05-18 15:11:58 xq it works really well, but it looks all the same™
2020-05-18 15:26:46 ℹ login is now known as l
2020-05-18 15:27:09 ℹ l is now known as login
2020-05-18 15:42:34 makeworld julienxx: I found the bug
2020-05-18 15:42:59 makeworld When I open Castor, without specifying a page, then click the bookmarks bar it crashes with this error:
2020-05-18 15:43:01 makeworld thread 'main' panicked at 'called `Result::unwrap()` on an `Err` value: RelativeUrlWithoutBase', src/draw.rs:259:27
2020-05-18 15:43:55 @julienxx that's weird, I almost never specify a page and I can open the bookmarks with or without a bookmarks file
2020-05-18 15:44:38 makeworld Huh
2020-05-18 15:45:24 @julienxx you're running 0.8.7 right? Under which OS?
2020-05-18 15:46:11 makeworld Linux
2020-05-18 15:46:26 makeworld With no castor settings file
2020-05-18 15:51:52 ⚡ jan6 loves fltk's lightness
2020-05-18 15:52:02 makeworld Ok once I wrote a castor settings file it worked julienxx
2020-05-18 15:52:08 makeworld Maybe that was the issue?
2020-05-18 15:52:38 @julienxx Ha interesting, I'll try to reproduce. Thanks!
2020-05-18 16:00:40 ~tiwesdaeg julienxx: I'm getting a weird behavior on castor
2020-05-18 16:00:58 ~tiwesdaeg I think it may be related to gemserv
2020-05-18 16:01:22 ~tiwesdaeg maybe not?
2020-05-18 16:01:29 ~tiwesdaeg also, only happening on openbsd
2020-05-18 16:01:50 ~tiwesdaeg if I enter tilde.pink in to the url bar, it crashes
2020-05-18 16:02:33 ~tiwesdaeg gemini://tilde.pink does it too, but not tilde.pink/ or gemini://tilde.pink/
2020-05-18 16:04:34 jan6 maybe it doesn't handle redirects?
2020-05-18 16:04:48 ~tiwesdaeg it's that one domain
2020-05-18 16:04:56 @julienxx you server is trying to redirect to / it seems
2020-05-18 16:05:08 ~tiwesdaeg libraryoferis.org is also on gemserv
2020-05-18 16:05:31 ~tiwesdaeg but they are different versions
2020-05-18 16:05:46 @julienxx I'm not sure I handle relative redirects yet
2020-05-18 16:05:57 ~tiwesdaeg I think tilde.pink is the newer
2020-05-18 16:06:18 ~tiwesdaeg I'll try and upgrade the other to see if I get the same behavior
2020-05-18 16:06:22 @julienxx adding a trailing slash works
2020-05-18 16:06:26 ~tiwesdaeg yep
2020-05-18 16:06:42 @julienxx I should re-read the spec on relative redirects
2020-05-18 16:07:16 @julienxx but it's weird to force a redirect to '/' IMO
2020-05-18 16:08:45 makeworld Can confirm the crashing
2020-05-18 16:09:18 @julienxx yeah Castor tries to access '/' but has no domain in it's history to append the / to
2020-05-18 16:09:40 ~tiwesdaeg let me confirm which is the older instance
2020-05-18 16:09:53 @julienxx should be an easy fix but I first want to make sure I'm supposed to support this
2020-05-18 16:10:49 jba I've seen relative redirects to '/' on a few sites now
2020-05-18 16:11:16 ~tiwesdaeg looks like tilde.pink is the newer
2020-05-18 16:15:35 ~tiwesdaeg these rust projects take forever to build ;P
2020-05-18 16:16:12 ⚡ makeworld whispers golang to stir up contreversy
2020-05-18 16:16:53 @julienxx that's the price of safety :p
2020-05-18 16:17:18 ⚡ xq throws Zig into the Room and feels like his toy isn't completly done yet
2020-05-18 16:20:23 jan6 lol
2020-05-18 16:20:34 @julienxx for the tilde pink issue it looks like it's not a redirect issue. Without a trailing slash the server does not seem to send a CRLF
2020-05-18 16:20:42 ⚡ jan6 throws V in the room
2020-05-18 16:20:49 xq that's vapour vare :D
2020-05-18 16:20:56 xq although Jai is even more :D
2020-05-18 16:41:32 ~tiwesdaeg I think I fixed it
2020-05-18 16:42:35 ~tiwesdaeg there is an option in config.toml about redirects
2020-05-18 16:42:51 ~tiwesdaeg I uncommented it and now it's killing castor
2020-05-18 16:50:05 jan6 is killing good?
2020-05-18 16:50:15 @tomasino only vegetables
2020-05-18 16:50:25 jan6 and nuts, and fruits
2020-05-18 16:52:42 @julienxx poor Castor
2020-05-18 16:54:58 @julienxx (a castor is a beaver in french)
2020-05-18 16:57:28 ~tiwesdaeg the french were big on beaver/castor trapping back in the day
2020-05-18 16:59:59 @julienxx looks like tilde.pink works without a / now
2020-05-18 17:00:00 ~tiwesdaeg oops
2020-05-18 17:00:08 ~tiwesdaeg yeah
2020-05-18 17:00:16 ~tiwesdaeg after I changed that setting for gemserv
2020-05-18 17:00:29 @julienxx cool
2020-05-18 17:00:44 ~tiwesdaeg now I'm killing castor for new reasons
2020-05-18 17:01:09 ~tiwesdaeg I got the gemserv author to add .gmi support
2020-05-18 17:01:32 @julienxx so much hate for the poor little animal ^^
2020-05-18 17:01:35 ~tiwesdaeg I just added that change for libraryoferis.org, but forgot to change the files from .gemini to .gmi
2020-05-18 17:01:42 ~tiwesdaeg also causes castor to crash
2020-05-18 17:03:01 @julienxx hmm must be on the server side
2020-05-18 17:03:18 @julienxx sending invalid data somehow
2020-05-18 17:05:22 @julienxx Some 9front gemini action https://toobnix.org/videos/watch/aed52d47-3c6c-413a-b84c-925990cd86aa
2020-05-18 17:06:01 ~tiwesdaeg there we go
2020-05-18 17:06:32 ~tiwesdaeg should I install 9term in anticipation?
2020-05-18 17:07:59 ~tiwesdaeg mothra is so weird
2020-05-18 17:08:03 ~tiwesdaeg like acme
2020-05-18 17:43:26 @julienxx Everything is so different in plan9, that’s fun to explore at least
2020-05-18 17:48:07 ⚡ tomasino sings the mothra song
2020-05-18 19:34:25 ▬▬▶ KayW has joined #gemini
2020-05-18 19:54:07 ~tiwesdaeg gemserv's vhirtual hosts work perfectly
2020-05-18 19:56:28 @tomasino brilliant
2020-05-18 20:16:48 xq someone here was a freebsd user, right?
2020-05-18 20:16:57 xq does XDG specs also apply to freebsd?
2020-05-18 20:21:57 epoch if you want them to?
2020-05-18 20:23:53 @tomasino officially, i don't think so
2020-05-18 20:23:56 @tomasino but they can be used
2020-05-18 20:24:04 @tomasino it's nice to have a fallback path if they're unset
2020-05-18 20:29:30 xq yeah, are these the default ones also common on linux?
2020-05-18 20:29:34 xq like ~/.config
2020-05-18 20:33:04 epoch I figured they should have just made .local and put everything in there in the same way stuff gets put in /usr/local
2020-05-18 20:33:21 epoch instead of half of everything in .local and the other half in .config and .cache or whatever
2020-05-18 20:33:52 epoch maybe have .config be a symlink to ~/.local/etc or something
2020-05-18 20:34:18 epoch and .cache be ~/.local/var/cache
2020-05-18 20:43:46 xq :D
2020-05-18 20:43:57 xq yeah, we're trying to write a special folders library
2020-05-18 20:44:03 xq and it looks like it's the same mess everywhere
2020-05-18 20:49:22 makeworld Ooh, spec changes coming up
2020-05-18 20:49:25 makeworld See the mailing list
2020-05-18 20:51:56 xq already noticed it, will read it son
2020-05-18 20:53:59 @tomasino i'm in favor of all the changes solderpunk laid out
2020-05-18 20:58:06 @julienxx Same for me
2020-05-18 21:28:27 makeworld I just have an issue with 2, as I described in my email
2020-05-18 21:43:25 epoch where's the mailing list?
2020-05-18 21:43:48 epoch nvm
2020-05-18 21:43:55 epoch https://lists.orbitalfox.eu/listinfo/gemini
2020-05-18 21:55:42 makeworld Yep
2020-05-18 21:55:59 makeworld That's where all the Gemini info happens, it's a good idea to subscribe
2020-05-18 21:56:03 makeworld Although it's somewhat busy
2020-05-18 21:56:38 epoch if text/* is supposed to require \r\n for line endings, what mime-type would you use for text files with unix line endings?
2020-05-18 21:56:48 epoch I sub'd
2020-05-18 22:01:17 @tomasino you can author in either
2020-05-18 22:01:25 @tomasino it's the server that needs to transmit crlf
2020-05-18 22:05:36 styan xq: Most of the *NIX desktop software uses XDG, which *NIX OS you use does not matter for that.
2020-05-18 22:06:02 makeworld epoch: My issue is that no one really follows that rule
2020-05-18 22:06:27 styan xq: Also, if you are looking for a good GUI toolkit to use with C, there is always Tk. :-)
2020-05-18 22:07:01 epoch yeah, I don't follow that rule for stuff my http server sends out
2020-05-18 22:08:00 epoch but, is there an rfc that has anything saying what a unix newline file should be called?
2020-05-18 22:08:44 styan text/plain-better?
2020-05-18 22:08:48 makeworld Lol
2020-05-18 22:08:52 epoch like sure "you shouldn't do that" is there, but unless they've made up alternative to doing it "wrong", then let's just keep doing it wrong the same way we've been doing it wrong
2020-05-18 22:08:57 makeworld I'd be surprised if there was epoch
2020-05-18 22:09:06 makeworld Yeah exactly
2020-05-18 22:09:12 makeworld That's what I argued in my email
2020-05-18 22:09:26 makeworld No response yet, we'll see what happens
2020-05-18 22:09:33 ⚡ makeworld afk
2020-05-18 22:11:46 epoch maybe a "charset"-like option?
2020-05-18 22:14:07 epoch https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5147#section-4.1
2020-05-18 22:14:53 epoch " Implementers should be aware of the fact that line endings in plain
2020-05-18 22:14:54 epoch text entities can be represented by other characters or character
2020-05-18 22:14:54 epoch sequences than CR+LF."
2020-05-18 22:19:29 @tomasino Sounds like something good to share
2020-05-18 22:19:29 xq styan: thanks for the answer
2020-05-18 22:37:07 wangofett has quit (Client exited)
2020-05-18 22:37:22 epoch let's see if I'm able to send mail...
2020-05-18 22:37:40 epoch https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2616#section-3.7.1
2020-05-18 22:38:04 epoch that's the part of the http RFC that says to allow alternate line endings
2020-05-18 22:38:40 epoch looks like I can send email properly. :)
2020-05-18 22:38:54 epoch got a "awaits moderation approval" response
2020-05-18 22:41:07 epoch looks like I used the wrong email address.
2020-05-18 22:42:18 makeworld Huh you should just be able to sign up to the mailing list on the website you linked
2020-05-18 22:43:59 epoch I had signed up with the wrong address
2020-05-18 22:44:25 epoch the email I sent was from epoch@enzo.thebackupbox.net and I signed up with epoch@thebackupbox.net
2020-05-18 22:44:57 epoch I just changed my subscription to use @enzo so it shouldn't be a problem anymore
2020-05-18 22:45:29 makeworld Ah ok
2020-05-18 22:46:39 ▬▬▶ wangofett has joined #gemini
2020-05-18 22:58:20 makeworld Can anyone ping 81.2.126.37 for me?
2020-05-18 22:58:36 makeworld Or access gemini://gemini.ucant.org ?
2020-05-18 22:58:53 makeworld I get "Packet filtered" and "No route to host" respectively
2020-05-18 23:01:17 ~tiwesdaeg makeworld: From 81.2.112.182 icmp_seq=1 Packet filtered
2020-05-18 23:01:30 makeworld Okay, not just me then
2020-05-18 23:01:45 cmccabe no route to host is what bombadillo tells me
2020-05-18 23:01:45 makeworld This is the latest email on the mailing list, I'll reply and let them know
2020-05-18 23:01:53 ~tiwesdaeg TLS Dial Error: dial tcp 81.2.126.37:1965: connect: no route to host
2020-05-18 23:04:01 makeworld I figured it was just some misconfiguration
2020-05-18 23:04:09 makeworld But I've never seen Packet filtered before
2020-05-18 23:04:42 makeworld I know it's used for censoring for sometimes, but idk why it would appear here
2020-05-18 23:05:37 wangofett packet filtered? Weeeeeeird
2020-05-18 23:05:51 wangofett (confirmed that behavior, fwiw
2020-05-18 23:18:52 makeworld Yeah it's strange
2020-05-18 23:19:06 makeworld Since everyone's getting it, it's not my ISP or something
2020-05-18 23:19:13 makeworld Maybe it's anti-DDOS prevention
2020-05-18 23:19:19 makeworld Or some weird hosting setup
2020-05-18 23:20:30 makeworld Ah he just replied, said it was the firewall
2020-05-18 23:23:40 makeworld And it looks like he'll be joining us here!
2020-05-18 23:24:09 makeworld tiwesdaeg: Could you add a notice about logging to the chan topic? Might good for people to know
2020-05-18 23:24:20 makeworld "This chan is logged on Gemini" or something
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2020-05-19 00:42:11 ℹ Mode #gemini [+o julienxx] by ChanServ
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2020-05-19 02:53:50 makeworld julienxx tomasino Maybe one of you could do that ^^ ? I'm not clear on perms
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2020-05-19 07:26:32 @julienxx I don’t think I’m a chan op
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2020-05-19 12:32:05 southerntofu hi, i'm curious if there's been discussions in the past about DANE for TLS certificate distribution ?
2020-05-19 12:32:50 southerntofu i love TOFU, but i strongly believe certificate discovery should take place on the name resolution level
2020-05-19 12:33:14 @julienxx I don't think it was mentioned, didn't knew it existed myself
2020-05-19 12:33:34 southerntofu (because DNSSEC is a thing, and if your DNS gets hijacked TLS is the least of your worries, and also because DNS will sooner or later be replaced with better tchnology like the GNU Name System)
2020-05-19 12:34:08 southerntofu julienxx: hey thanks for the info
2020-05-19 12:34:43 southerntofu where can i start a discussion about this? should i subscribe to the ML and post there?
2020-05-19 12:36:07 ~tiwesdaeg julienxx: you are a channel op!
2020-05-19 12:36:28 ~tiwesdaeg also, do we really have any more room in the topic?
2020-05-19 12:36:32 @julienxx southerntofu: yes
2020-05-19 12:36:40 @julienxx tiwesdaeg: cool, thanks
2020-05-19 12:39:35 ~tiwesdaeg we are now ranked above #covid19 at 8th largest channel
2020-05-19 12:51:24 ℹ Mode #gemini [-o julienxx] by julienxx
2020-05-19 12:55:06 ~tiwesdaeg awww
2020-05-19 12:55:21 julienxx tiwesdaeg: I think I removed my op thing by mistake ^^
2020-05-19 12:55:30 ℹ Mode #gemini [+o julienxx] by tiwesdaeg
2020-05-19 12:55:44 ~tiwesdaeg you're on auto-op with chanserv anyway
2020-05-19 12:55:58 ~tiwesdaeg any time you join, chanserv will op you
2020-05-19 12:56:00 @julienxx neat
2020-05-19 12:56:32 ~tiwesdaeg I didn't bother opping ben, he's like a super duper op
2020-05-19 12:57:17 ▬▬▶ Ernoz has joined #gemini
2020-05-19 12:57:23 Ernoz hey
2020-05-19 12:57:27 ~tiwesdaeg howdy
2020-05-19 12:58:34 Ernoz how are you? :)
2020-05-19 12:58:59 ~tiwesdaeg sipping tea and waking up, you?
2020-05-19 13:29:20 southerntofu thanks for the info i'll drop a mail later today :)
2020-05-19 13:35:03 ben tiwesdaeg: did you use /cs aop?
2020-05-19 13:35:18 ben note that you'll need to be logged in to services to be auto-opped
2020-05-19 13:36:55 ~tiwesdaeg I used some long command I always have to ask chanserv about
2020-05-19 13:37:23 ben aop/qop/hop/vop are the easiest way to do it
2020-05-19 13:37:34 ben eg /cs aop #gemini add tiwesdaeg
2020-05-19 13:37:51 ben i always forget the commands for the other way
2020-05-19 13:37:54 ben something with flags
2020-05-19 13:38:18 @tomasino i like keeping chanserv in my room with me
2020-05-19 13:38:21 @tomasino it's cozy
2020-05-19 13:39:03 ~tiwesdaeg hmmm /cs doesn't seem to be doing anything for me
2020-05-19 13:39:15 ~tiwesdaeg but /msg chanserv does
2020-05-19 13:40:07 ℹ Notice(cosmic.tilde.chat): *** ChanServ invited ChanServ into the channel
2020-05-19 13:40:08 @tomasino no /cs for me either
2020-05-19 13:40:28 ~tiwesdaeg sounds like an alias on your client?
2020-05-19 13:40:56 ~tiwesdaeg aww, I invited chanserv, but he didn't come
2020-05-19 13:41:10 ℹ Mode #gemini [+o ben] by ChanServ
2020-05-19 13:41:20 ~tiwesdaeg see, that one worked fine
2020-05-19 13:41:44 @tomasino hrm
2020-05-19 13:41:48 @tomasino i forget how i got him into cosmic
2020-05-19 13:42:29 ~tiwesdaeg I'm reading through the help
2020-05-19 13:42:32 @tomasino i think it might be protect or enforce or something
2020-05-19 13:43:20 ℹ Mode #gemini [+a tiwesdaeg] by ChanServ
2020-05-19 13:43:39 ~tiwesdaeg that was protect
2020-05-19 13:49:29 @ben /quote cs
2020-05-19 13:49:34 @ben it's an ircd alias
2020-05-19 13:49:39 @ben your client just isn't forwarding it on
2020-05-19 13:49:50 @ben /set irc.network.send_unknown_commands on
2020-05-19 13:50:09 @ben not really a huge reason to bring chanserv in
2020-05-19 15:24:16 m68k howdy folks
2020-05-19 15:25:19 m68k uhh I guess I realize this is open-ended but I've been using jetforce since december, I installed it once & left it. Is there a "fuller" server I should be using instead by now?
2020-05-19 15:25:32 m68k that's also not too complicated to set up ^_^;
2020-05-19 15:25:43 @tomasino you can update jetforce and keep running it, but there's a bunch of other options too
2020-05-19 15:25:46 @tomasino check out teh link in the topic
2020-05-19 15:25:58 @tomasino many, many new ones available
2020-05-19 15:26:25 m68k yeah I guess I can just read throug the ist
2020-05-19 15:26:28 m68k *list
2020-05-19 15:29:12 @tomasino tiwesdaeg: which one did you just switch to again?
2020-05-19 15:29:29 @tomasino he was running jetforce and likes this new one better as it offers some nice out-of-the-box stuff
2020-05-19 15:31:04 m68k oh, looks like there's not actually that many new servers. Maybe Molly Brown? I feel like I read that it's more of the "flagship" one now
2020-05-19 15:48:12 @tomasino molly brown is solderpunks, so it's got that goin for it
2020-05-19 15:48:17 @tomasino but it's behind on features
2020-05-19 15:51:27 makeworld Yeah, it seems Jetforce has more
2020-05-19 15:54:57 kayw Jetforce is super nice imo
2020-05-19 15:55:01 kayw works extremely well
2020-05-19 15:55:55 makeworld has quit (Ping timeout: 120 seconds)
2020-05-19 15:57:21 m68k ah, ok thanks for the responses. I don't do any scripting on my server so it's fine for me, for some reason I thought it was less featured than others by now
2020-05-19 15:57:45 @tomasino well, just make sure you give it a pull and build the latest once in a while
2020-05-19 15:57:54 @tomasino still plenty of dev happening on the spec
2020-05-19 16:00:43 m68k yeah, just went from 0.2.0->0.2.2, forgot that pip packages don't get updated in my scheduled updates
2020-05-19 16:32:14 quinnj has quit (Client exited)
2020-05-19 17:07:55 smoerk has quit (The TLS connection was non-properly terminated.)
2020-05-19 17:39:38 m68k aha, great. my cert isn't up to spec apparently. I think that might have been why I thought another server was better...
2020-05-19 17:40:00 m68k time to read the last month or two of the mailing list and find the current best practice
2020-05-19 17:50:09 kayw question: should I have a robots.txt file for my server?
2020-05-19 17:56:25 xq guys, the gurl client has now tofu support :)
2020-05-19 17:56:31 xq *happy*
2020-05-19 17:59:19 xq next up: *shiver* client certs
2020-05-19 18:54:25 ~tiwesdaeg tomasino: gemserv
2020-05-19 18:55:49 ~tiwesdaeg cgi works, vhosts works, and user directories work as well
2020-05-19 18:55:58 ~tiwesdaeg it's like everything I need in one place
2020-05-19 20:43:35 xq <xq> guys, the gurl client has now tofu support :)
2020-05-19 20:43:38 xq well, maybe not yet…
2020-05-19 20:43:43 xq i missunderstood something :D
2020-05-19 20:43:47 xq back to the code
2020-05-19 20:43:57 ▬▬▶ makeworld has joined #gemini
2020-05-19 20:47:03 makeworld Test
2020-05-19 20:47:17 makeworld Gemini IRC logs are back online... for now anyway
2020-05-19 20:47:28 makeworld My internet has been acting up today ;(
2020-05-19 20:48:57 ~tiwesdaeg makeworld: what's the link again?
2020-05-19 20:49:14 ⚡ tiwesdaeg is attempting to compile firefox-esr
2020-05-19 20:49:20 makeworld gemini://makeworld.gq/cgi-bin/gemini-irc
2020-05-19 20:49:39 makeworld tiwesdaeg
2020-05-19 20:49:55 makeworld I was thinking you should mention that this chat is logged in the topic btw
2020-05-19 20:50:27 makeworld Good luck, compiling browsers is no joke...
2020-05-19 20:51:19 ~tiwesdaeg well, netbsd pkgsrc doesn't currently have a modern version of firefox in binary form
2020-05-19 20:51:49 ~tiwesdaeg I'm using pkgsrc to compile it, but my guess is something will go wrong, which is why there isn't a current binary
2020-05-19 20:52:00 ~tiwesdaeg esr 52 is the only thing available right now
2020-05-19 20:52:31 @tomasino you need historicals makeworld ?
2020-05-19 20:52:40 @tomasino i can shoot you a copy of my old logs back to nearly channel creation
2020-05-19 20:53:11 makeworld I'll take 'em, but my server only displays the most recent 100 lines right now so they won't be online
2020-05-19 20:53:17 @tomasino ahha
2020-05-19 20:53:18 ~tiwesdaeg these should all be converted to picture meme format
2020-05-19 20:53:19 makeworld But I wouldn't mind having them :)
2020-05-19 20:53:55 @tomasino https://ttm.sh/QEL.weechat
2020-05-19 20:54:26 makeworld Nice thanks
2020-05-19 20:54:36 @tomasino NP
2020-05-19 20:54:41 ~tiwesdaeg stupid web pages
2020-05-19 20:54:59 ~tiwesdaeg this recipe site keep crashing my tab on firefox 52
2020-05-19 20:55:12 makeworld o.O
2020-05-19 20:55:51 ~tiwesdaeg it's baked ziti for dinner tonight
2020-05-19 20:55:52 @tomasino recipe sites are beasts
2020-05-19 20:55:56 @tomasino pi-holes help
2020-05-19 20:56:17 ~tiwesdaeg especially when 90% of the page is some long story
2020-05-19 20:56:28 ~tiwesdaeg I just want some simple instructions
2020-05-19 20:57:44 makeworld Can't remember what it is now, but I saw some tool that will attempt to automatically remove that and just find the recipe
2020-05-19 20:57:55 makeworld What a world where you have to write tools like that lol
2020-05-19 20:58:27 makeworld +1 for pi-hole though, it's been great for me
2020-05-19 20:58:36 @tomasino gopher://gopher.black/1/recipebox
2020-05-19 20:58:59 ~tiwesdaeg does it have baked ziti?
2020-05-19 20:59:04 makeworld Ooh
2020-05-19 20:59:24 @tomasino i have a couple things i should add
2020-05-19 20:59:35 @tomasino like the perfect way to make popcorn
2020-05-19 20:59:59 makeworld Do tell
2020-05-19 21:00:02 ~tiwesdaeg yeah, don't make it, perfecto
2020-05-19 21:00:26 ~tiwesdaeg I like my corn ground
2020-05-19 21:00:30 @tomasino I'll add it to the hole! :D
2020-05-19 21:00:33 ~tiwesdaeg though elote ain't bad
2020-05-19 21:00:52 ~tiwesdaeg ok, I take it back
2020-05-19 21:00:59 ~tiwesdaeg if it's kettle corn, I am down
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2020-05-19 21:11:40 @tomasino popcorn recipe added
2020-05-19 21:17:10 xq it's funny to start reading gemini pages via gurl requests instead of using castor :D
2020-05-19 21:17:18 xq but hey, it works and using the own client is a good test
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2020-05-19 21:25:48 ⚡ tiwesdaeg waves at sloum
2020-05-19 21:26:26 sloum There was some chatter on the mailing list re: a formatting tool ala go fmt. Do any of you think you'd use a tool like that? If so, I could probably write something in AWK tonight that would get the job done. AWK should be reasonably portable for most users.
2020-05-19 21:26:41 sloum I know know how to do actions in IRC, but I wave back tiwesdaeg!
2020-05-19 21:27:12 @tomasino i just write in vim with PencilSoft enabled
2020-05-19 21:27:19 ⚡ xq waves at sloum and thinks: Hell yeah, autoformatters!
2020-05-19 21:27:21 sloum What is PencilSoft?
2020-05-19 21:27:34 @tomasino Pencil plugin
2020-05-19 21:27:37 @tomasino it's one of the modes
2020-05-19 21:27:41 @tomasino excellent vim plugin for writing
2020-05-19 21:27:49 @tomasino m Reeves
2020-05-19 21:27:51 @tomasino lemme find you a link
2020-05-19 21:28:00 @tomasino https://github.com/reedes/vim-pencil
2020-05-19 21:28:05 @tomasino reedes, got his name wrong
2020-05-19 21:28:15 @tomasino i use a bunch of his plugins for writing prose
2020-05-19 21:28:33 sloum Hm. I ahve not delved into plugins and tend to just use base Vim (well, I use SpaceVim at work... I guess that uses plugins, but I've never configured any of them). I'll take a look. Sounds interesting!
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2020-05-19 21:30:37 @tomasino that readme is a treasure trove of techniques you can use with it and links to ohter good plugins for writing
2020-05-19 21:31:02 sloum Interesting. So that easily takes care of how wrapping is handled... which is something I felt like couldnt be easily done by a formatter (since it is difficult to know whether someone _really_ wanted that newline there or if it is just a continuation)
2020-05-19 21:31:28 @tomasino yeah, and there's some powerful rules to customize it by language
2020-05-19 21:32:09 @tomasino there's a part about blacklisting down further in the readme explaining how to avoid breaking markdown links, for instance
2020-05-19 21:32:43 sloum Oh cool. That does sound really nice and useful.
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2020-05-19 21:37:54 ℹ mk is now known as mk270
2020-05-19 21:48:35 xq makeworld, now that you mention it
2020-05-19 21:48:47 xq i haven't taken a look at your page! 😱
2020-05-19 21:48:58 makeworld Haha
2020-05-19 21:49:14 makeworld Well better take a look now before my internet goes out again!
2020-05-19 21:49:46 xq WHAT ON EARTH IS THAT :D
2020-05-19 21:49:54 xq your email is glorious
2020-05-19 21:49:57 xq ♥
2020-05-19 21:50:31 makeworld Aww thanks
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2020-05-19 21:50:55 admicos makeworld: your page seems to be rendering "fine" on moonlander in my end. does your system default sans-serif support the unicode madness you have?
2020-05-19 21:51:04 makeworld I picked up that trick from https://mathilde.website/ although their site seems to be down right now
2020-05-19 21:51:05 admicos (fine: same with castor)
2020-05-19 21:51:12 makeworld Hmm let me check again with moonlander
2020-05-19 21:51:13 xq i think my client handles it right though
2020-05-19 21:51:13 xq https://mq32.de/public/526498cefe08af0f255dec9451492ac51d2e54fe.png
2020-05-19 21:52:20 makeworld admicos: Looks like it's just having issues loading it for some reason
2020-05-19 21:52:37 admicos makeworld: yeah, there are some issues loading some pages
2020-05-19 21:52:42 makeworld But my homepage loads fine
2020-05-19 21:52:48 admicos probably the page clipping acting up
2020-05-19 21:52:52 makeworld I assumed the unicode was messing it up
2020-05-19 21:52:54 makeworld But yeah idk
2020-05-19 21:53:05 makeworld Sorry for naming and shaming in the email ;)
2020-05-19 21:53:18 admicos lol no worries, it's still in development
2020-05-19 21:53:51 admicos with the surface caching implemented, i'm not sure how effective the clipping would be relative to the pain it's given me
2020-05-19 21:53:57 admicos especially since it's a complete afterthought
2020-05-19 21:55:27 admicos but that's for tomorrow, it's getting late here
2020-05-19 21:56:08 makeworld Hmm I just thought of another client torture test, but I also have a question
2020-05-19 21:56:27 makeworld What if I request a resource, and it responds with status 10, for input
2020-05-19 21:56:51 makeworld But after providing input, by re-requesting: resource.gmi?querytext, it responds with status 10 again, for more input
2020-05-19 21:57:11 makeworld Is that valid? It should be, I think
2020-05-19 21:57:24 admicos not sure about the spec, but i can tell you what moonlander will do
2020-05-19 21:57:28 admicos completely ignore and probably panic
2020-05-19 21:57:49 admicos status codes that aren't 2x or 3x are not implemented yet
2020-05-19 21:57:57 makeworld But then would some clients do the next request as: resource.gmi?querytext?nextquery, or would it be resource.gmi?nextquery ? Which is correct?
2020-05-19 21:58:35 makeworld I believe it's the latter, but I bet a lot of clients just tack it on and would fail
2020-05-19 21:59:13 admicos i'd say it will depend on the author, and if they decided to use a proper url parser or written their own
2020-05-19 21:59:30 admicos (and if they choose to use it in this specific situation)
2020-05-19 21:59:41 admicos it's definitely tempting to just append ?query into the url
2020-05-19 22:00:32 makeworld Yeah, but a proper usage would be to replace the .query value of a parsed url, then send the new string
2020-05-19 22:01:02 makeworld s/but//
2020-05-19 22:01:37 admicos anyway, i'm heading off for today, feel free to torture moonlander more and let me know which parts actually work (because that list will be smaller than the ones that break)
2020-05-19 22:01:56 makeworld Ha okay, I might. Goodnight!
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2020-05-19 23:14:52 makeworld So many graphical clients now..
2020-05-19 23:15:01 makeworld It's nice, but I'm still partial to bombadillo :)
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2020-05-19 23:40:40 bard bombadillo is great! it's the only client I've used, actually, but I am a fan of it.
2020-05-19 23:47:31 @tomasino castor has taken first place in my gemini list
2020-05-19 23:47:50 @tomasino i still default to lynx for gopher, and sometimes bust out vf1 or burrow or bombadillo
2020-05-20 00:02:27 styan I saw that OpenBSD 6.7 is out, and I am happy to see the sioctl_ondesc(3) interface.
2020-05-20 00:03:40 @tomasino i tried updating black, but it broke everything and i rolled back
2020-05-20 00:05:47 styan How so?
2020-05-20 00:06:18 @tomasino services all came up, but pkg_add threw a C error and wouldn't run
2020-05-20 00:06:28 @tomasino most(1) wasn't installed
2020-05-20 00:06:35 @tomasino i couldn't diff the remaining files that needed merging
2020-05-20 00:07:40 styan That sounds like a mess. At least you got it back to a known-good state.
2020-05-20 00:07:57 @tomasino i made sure to take a snapshot before i started
2020-05-20 00:08:02 @tomasino :)
2020-05-20 00:14:40 styan Oh, This is #gemini, the windows are in a different order now.
2020-05-20 00:21:42 bard I was pleasantly surprised that bombadillo could browser gopher. I remember looking into gopher a year or two ago and not liking the browser selection much
2020-05-20 00:21:52 bard s/browser gopher/browse gopher/
2020-05-20 00:22:33 kayw bombadillo is a great browser
2020-05-20 00:28:09 styan I think I know what I could put on Gemini. Retro Forth practice!
2020-05-20 00:29:37 styan The source files already use literate programming, and if I want code blocks s/~~~/```/.
2020-05-20 00:36:08 makeworld What gemini servers support CGI, besides Jetforce?
2020-05-20 00:36:46 makeworld I'm writing a gemini app, but I'm trying to make it work through CGI so you wouldn't have to run two servers or something
2020-05-20 00:39:26 makeworld Ok I found some
2020-05-20 02:16:08 ~tiwesdaeg makeworld: gemserv
2020-05-20 02:18:54 makeworld Yeah, I saw that one thanks. Just wanted to make sure they all support QUERY_STRING and REMOTE_ADDR
2020-05-20 02:19:07 makeworld But those are part of an RFC iirc, so it should be good
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2020-05-20 02:46:04 sloum Good evening everyone :)
2020-05-20 02:47:19 @ben hola sloum
2020-05-20 02:47:26 @ben internet troubles?
2020-05-20 02:50:27 sloum Me? Nope.
2020-05-20 02:53:59 @ben ah your irc client was disconnected for a while
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2020-05-20 03:31:20 sloum Oh. I had closed my laptop without logging off.
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2020-05-20 06:58:46 xwindows scrollback goto -40
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2020-05-20 11:34:36 @julienxx Hi geminauts, I'm working on adding font size and family choice for Castor, what defaults do you think would make sense? I was thinking serif and 11.
2020-05-20 11:37:28 admicos on Moonlander, I use 13.5 (px or pt, not sure) sans-serif, though I recall some places saying serif fonts might be better for readability
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2020-05-20 11:48:49 @tomasino serif fonts have increased legibility at larger font sizes, but lower legibility at smaller font sizes
2020-05-20 11:49:51 @tomasino most news sites focused are at 13 or 13.5 these days
2020-05-20 11:49:59 @tomasino focused on readibility, rather
2020-05-20 11:52:23 login a font like fantasque sans mono is nice
2020-05-20 11:52:55 login if each letter, including mirrored ones like d and b or p and q look different enough, it makes the text easier to read
2020-05-20 11:53:06 login different enough from each other, i mean
2020-05-20 11:53:37 login also, something that disambiguates 1, I,l and 0, O and o
2020-05-20 11:56:40 @tomasino if you're bundling fonts, this is a nice option to include: https://opendyslexic.org/
2020-05-20 12:02:04 @tomasino but regardless, font & family choice ++!
2020-05-20 12:03:09 @tomasino lemme think here. You'll have font styling for headings 1,2,3, body, list, fixed, and link ?
2020-05-20 12:03:11 @tomasino that's not so many
2020-05-20 12:06:22 @julienxx I won't bundle a font, that's left to the user GTK preferences. I'll have to rewrite the config file shape which will break existing settings probably but whatever
2020-05-20 12:07:23 @tomasino cool cool
2020-05-20 12:07:54 @tomasino Can it use multiple fonts? Mostly a distinction between the code-fenced and non?
2020-05-20 12:21:11 admicos oh no
2020-05-20 12:21:23 admicos i have no idea how i can do text selection
2020-05-20 12:21:35 admicos finding which line the cursor is under is easy, already done for link handling
2020-05-20 12:21:38 admicos but finding each character
2020-05-20 12:27:36 @julienxx tomasino: code fence would always be monospace
2020-05-20 12:27:55 @julienxx otherwise art would look like shit
2020-05-20 12:39:39 mk270 hello - how do people expect, if at all, gemini to use client certificates for authenticating users? would it be possible to have a scheme whereby a particular resource is available only to clients whose cert has been signed by a particular signer?
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2020-05-20 12:45:47 admicos it took just about 2 days for Moonlander's codebase to turn into spaghetti
2020-05-20 12:45:51 admicos hooray!
2020-05-20 12:47:04 mk270 interesting: i just tried looking up moonlander on duckduckgo, out of muscle memory. then looked it up on gemini ... found it :) unsurprising, but still
2020-05-20 12:47:44 admicos it's too generic of a name to turn up in the regular web even if it was popular
2020-05-20 12:48:59 mk270 yeah. there are a bunch of htings one does *not* look up on the web: academic paper, law reports, anything involving exact textual phrases (used to be supported), ... looks like a bit more fragmentation, whcih is interesting
2020-05-20 12:51:09 mk270 there are now, what, three gemini clients in rust? can we factor out the protocol handler into a module yet?
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2020-05-20 12:54:52 @julienxx at some point that might be a good idea, haven't looked at how the other clients do this part yet
2020-05-20 12:55:40 admicos Mine is separated enough to be split from the code base completely, though it's not as clean as i would've liked
2020-05-20 12:55:47 admicos also missing some features
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2020-05-20 13:18:42 mk270 also, is there a server torture script?
2020-05-20 13:20:46 xq there's only a client torture suite by conman
2020-05-20 13:20:48 xq afaik
2020-05-20 13:21:02 xq but having a server torture suite wouldn't be bad, either
2020-05-20 13:21:13 @tomasino sexy curl suite
2020-05-20 13:21:47 login what is this about torture?
2020-05-20 13:23:39 xq login: It's a set of bad/good/special requests/responses you throw at a server/client to see how it behaves in bad situations
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2020-05-20 14:05:59 ~tiwesdaeg login: I use fantasque sans mono for everything
2020-05-20 14:06:10 ~tiwesdaeg it's so comfy
2020-05-20 14:49:46 login thanks to nilaky for introducing me to it
2020-05-20 14:49:56 login ah
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2020-05-20 15:49:34 @julienxx Just pushed a new Castor update where you can set various font family, size and style. Look at the README for setting changes.
2020-05-20 15:52:07 ~tiwesdaeg I'll compile it if I ever get around to finishing up compiling firefox
2020-05-20 15:52:34 ~tiwesdaeg it's first compiling all of rust :(
2020-05-20 15:52:58 @julienxx wow! Why are you compiling firefox?
2020-05-20 15:55:24 ~tiwesdaeg the binary is missing from the package system on netbsd
2020-05-20 15:55:36 ~tiwesdaeg only firefox52 is available
2020-05-20 15:56:00 ~tiwesdaeg I'm using pkgsrc to hopefully get it compiled, but I have my doubts
2020-05-20 15:58:55 @julienxx you'll know in 48h :p
2020-05-20 16:07:25 ~tiwesdaeg ;P
2020-05-20 16:07:45 ~tiwesdaeg my poor little ryzen 5 is just chugging along
2020-05-20 16:08:29 ~tiwesdaeg it doesn't help that each rust component must download and compile its dependencies over and over
2020-05-20 16:09:03 ~tiwesdaeg looks like I'm compiling nodejs right now
2020-05-20 16:09:26 ~tiwesdaeg I could probably have installed some of these as binary packages
2020-05-20 18:01:37 makeworld Yikes
2020-05-20 18:01:42 makeworld Gl
2020-05-20 18:03:53 ~tiwesdaeg I've had to stop from time to time as I have different operating systems on this system that I need to access
2020-05-20 18:38:34 ~tiwesdaeg so, are ``` official yet when it comes to formatted text?
2020-05-20 18:42:41 @julienxx Yes but not the optional part afterwards yet
2020-05-20 18:43:15 ~tiwesdaeg ok, I need to start using it
2020-05-20 18:43:29 ~tiwesdaeg some browsers seem to pay attention and other don't
2020-05-20 18:55:27 ~tiwesdaeg new non-gemini gemini content
2020-05-20 18:55:32 ~tiwesdaeg gemini://qd.libraryoferis.org/
2020-05-20 19:03:25 kayw just a heads up, but av-98 is saying that your cert wont be available for another hour and a half
2020-05-20 19:05:48 ~tiwesdaeg that's weird
2020-05-20 19:06:25 ~tiwesdaeg I just expanded the let's encrupt cert to add qd.libraryoferis.org
2020-05-20 19:06:47 ~tiwesdaeg is it a timezone thing?
2020-05-20 19:08:50 kayw maybe?
2020-05-20 19:10:41 ~tiwesdaeg I haven't updated av98 in a while. The site just crashed my version
2020-05-20 19:10:54 kayw yikes
2020-05-20 19:11:01 kayw lemme try connecting through bombadillo
2020-05-20 19:11:13 kayw and it connected fine
2020-05-20 19:11:18 kayw that's strange
2020-05-20 19:11:37 ~tiwesdaeg yeah, I tried bombadillo as well and no issue
2020-05-20 19:11:50 kayw guess it's just an av-98 issue
2020-05-20 19:11:52 ~tiwesdaeg maybe try av98 and an hour and a half
2020-05-20 19:11:57 ~tiwesdaeg castor is fine too
2020-05-20 19:14:25 kayw yeah sure
2020-05-20 19:14:30 kayw i'll let you know then
2020-05-20 19:27:41 @julienxx Castor does not really check certificates validity, just présence for now
2020-05-20 20:41:38 ~tiwesdaeg woo, I did it! built firefox esr
2020-05-20 20:41:50 ~tiwesdaeg now I'm trying 74
2020-05-20 20:44:44 kayw tiwesdaeg, av-98 connected without any issues now
2020-05-20 20:50:25 @tomasino Yay
2020-05-20 20:51:51 mk270 hello - would anyone be willing and able to help me write a server-torture test for gemini?
2020-05-20 21:03:25 ~tiwesdaeg awesome, thanks!
2020-05-20 22:29:16 styan mk270: Sure, if I can, why not.
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2020-05-21 02:55:37 makeworld https://github.com/michael-lazar/jetforce/commit/1066d39125a8bff334c63fe3abc50fc3f45fb837#commitcomment-39320242
2020-05-21 02:56:01 makeworld Opinions on the Floodgap license? There's some discussion there ^^, about how Jetforce is using it
2020-05-21 02:56:18 makeworld I don't like it much at the moment but I'm open to changing my mind
2020-05-21 02:56:46 makeworld I only saw it for the first time in Gemini, several gemini software projects I've seen have used it
2020-05-21 02:59:42 kayw why would he not want jetforce to be redistributable? im so confused
2020-05-21 03:00:21 kayw i use jetforce myself, and i might just switch to molly-brown depending on how this all goes down
2020-05-21 03:00:25 makeworld Yeah I didn't get it either, that's why I asked. We'll see what the response is
2020-05-21 03:12:11 kayw I pretty much feel the same way as ddevault, "I don't think this is a good contribution to the growing Gemini ecosystem under these license terms, and I'm disappointed in your choice."
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2020-05-21 04:13:49 epoch anyone using multipart responses?
2020-05-21 06:31:56 bard I haven't set up a gemini server yet, but I'm glad to know to avoid jetforce I guess
2020-05-21 09:17:53 @tomasino I don't see why it matters. It's still free to use. It won't be bundled into anything that can be done. Fine
2020-05-21 09:29:39 @tomasino Reading it more... It has provisions where it can be bundled and sold too
2020-05-21 09:30:03 @tomasino You just can't sell it specifically. It's a rather weak license
2020-05-21 09:30:33 @tomasino CC-BY-NC gets almost the same goals but with better international legal protections
2020-05-21 09:30:42 @tomasino But whatever
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2020-05-21 12:30:46 bard simple as wanting to use all free software for me personally, so if it breakes any of the four freedoms I'd rather avoid it. I don't have to think about it too much beyond that
2020-05-21 12:49:41 ~tiwesdaeg jetforce was nice in that it was very to install with pip
2020-05-21 12:50:00 ~tiwesdaeg that helped with adoption
2020-05-21 12:50:16 ~tiwesdaeg I never did get cgi working the way I wanted though
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2020-05-21 13:28:43 makeworld Yeah, I'm still using jetforce, I like it. It was easy to install, featureful,and I like python
2020-05-21 13:28:50 makeworld But now I'm a bit conflicted
2020-05-21 13:42:56 ⚡ tiwesdaeg bashes rust with a hammer
2020-05-21 13:43:00 ~tiwesdaeg see, it fits
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2020-05-21 14:23:52 ~tiwesdaeg julienxx: H1 lines aren't displaying for me on the current version of castor
2020-05-21 14:45:01 @julienxx tiwesdaeg: could you try by moving your settings file for a test? Seems to work for me but I’ll recheck
2020-05-21 14:47:36 ~tiwesdaeg julienxx: I can now see the H1
2020-05-21 14:47:50 ~tiwesdaeg I copied your settings.toml this morning
2020-05-21 14:48:14 ~tiwesdaeg I also tried making the H1 section look like the H2 section
2020-05-21 14:48:20 ~tiwesdaeg it still did not display
2020-05-21 14:48:25 makeworld Anyone have an idea for how to send two bits of data in Gemini? Like if I want to send a string that refers to a specific file, using CGI. You can call the CGI binary with `binary?filename`, but then users can't send a string as a query and still have the binary know what file is being referred to
2020-05-21 14:48:40 makeworld Idk if that makes sense
2020-05-21 14:50:58 ~tiwesdaeg hmmm
2020-05-21 14:53:28 ~tiwesdaeg makeworld: are you trying to send two pieces of information with one QUERY_STRING?
2020-05-21 14:54:07 makeworld Basically, but the problem is I want the user to type the second piece, so I cant do something like `?first=foo&second=bar`
2020-05-21 14:54:39 @tomasino i'm sorry, really not familiar with how gemini cgi is supposed to function
2020-05-21 14:54:47 makeworld Using a full server could easily do this, but I was trying to write it for CGI originally so people wouldn't have to run multiple servers
2020-05-21 14:54:55 makeworld CGI is just about calling a binary
2020-05-21 14:55:04 ~tiwesdaeg can you store first somehow and call it up again?
2020-05-21 14:55:24 ~tiwesdaeg like a tmp file that will be deleted
2020-05-21 14:55:59 makeworld Yeah I thought about that, maybe I can? The problem is that there may be other requests in between the first and second one. Possibly even by the same IP address (multiple people under the same NAT)
2020-05-21 14:56:51 ~tiwesdaeg I guess this is where user certs may come in handy
2020-05-21 14:57:12 makeworld Yeah, definitely would need to use a full server then
2020-05-21 14:57:41 makeworld Lmk if you think of another way to do this though
2020-05-21 14:58:45 ~tiwesdaeg I don't know much abut the gemini user search entry
2020-05-21 14:59:00 ⚡ tiwesdaeg goes to look at gus
2020-05-21 15:00:36 ~tiwesdaeg makeworld: could the user entry come first?
2020-05-21 15:02:03 makeworld I don't think so.. I'll look into it
2020-05-21 15:02:21 makeworld Maybe I'll just come clean.. I'm trying to make a comment system for Gemini
2020-05-21 15:02:32 makeworld But I think a server will be needed
2020-05-21 15:04:16 makeworld I'm working on a like system too though, and that will work fine with just CGI
2020-05-21 15:14:07 ~tiwesdaeg any good examples on how to do a text entry query link?
2020-05-21 15:55:56 makeworld tiwesdaeg: Like this? `=> somefile?queryhere Link text`
2020-05-21 15:56:06 makeworld Or do you on the server
2020-05-21 15:56:11 makeworld *you mean
2020-05-21 16:00:36 ~tiwesdaeg so, on gus, when you click the search link, it pops up a query entry box
2020-05-21 16:00:44 ~tiwesdaeg to get user input
2020-05-21 16:01:03 ~tiwesdaeg How does one trigger that action?
2020-05-21 16:01:18 ~tiwesdaeg in a .gmi file
2020-05-21 16:28:00 jba it's a response code, so that link triggers a 1 response from the server
2020-05-21 16:28:12 jba and the client knows to ask for input
2020-05-21 16:33:25 ~tiwesdaeg ahh
2020-05-21 16:33:50 ⚡ tiwesdaeg goes to play with response codes
2020-05-21 16:52:22 makeworld Yeah it's code 10
2020-05-21 16:52:40 makeworld Anyway I got likes working, come try it out! I'll release the code soon
2020-05-21 16:52:42 makeworld gemini://makeworld.gq:1965/gemlog/2020-05-21-first.gmi
2020-05-21 16:52:51 makeworld gemini://makeworld.gq/gemlog/2020-05-21-first.gmi
2020-05-21 16:53:37 makeworld Let me know it works for gives an error, etc
2020-05-21 16:58:34 ~tiwesdaeg I was able to like it with castor
2020-05-21 17:00:27 ~tiwesdaeg so, one thing I miss about geomyidae the gopher server, you can have any "gophermap" be dynamic content
2020-05-21 17:00:57 ~tiwesdaeg so, if you have an index.cgi, the server will default to that as the main gophermap
2020-05-21 17:01:30 ~tiwesdaeg all the existing gemini servers use the separate cgi-bin folder type method
2020-05-21 17:02:18 ~tiwesdaeg so like, I can't display the current discordian date using ddate in the index.gmi file for libraryoferis.org
2020-05-21 17:03:02 ~tiwesdaeg I'd either have to have some entry page that links to the main page in something like /cgi-bin/index.cgi
2020-05-21 17:03:28 ~tiwesdaeg or have some external script write over the file with new information each day
2020-05-21 17:03:57 ~tiwesdaeg gophernicus allowed executing scripts in the gophermap as well with the = line
2020-05-21 17:04:37 ~tiwesdaeg maybe this can all be done with forwarding/proxy stuff?
2020-05-21 17:04:45 ~tiwesdaeg at least to maintain a clean url
2020-05-21 17:17:45 makeworld Hmm yeah you'd have to forward maybe
2020-05-21 17:17:52 makeworld Also yay it worked!
2020-05-21 17:19:02 @julienxx Please don’t make likes happen ^^
2020-05-21 17:24:42 ~tiwesdaeg we can just rename likes to something else
2020-05-21 17:49:50 @julienxx No please do whatever you want! Likes and other vanity metrics destroyed the online society but that’s cool :p
2020-05-21 17:51:21 ⚡ tiwesdaeg upvotes this
2020-05-21 17:52:01 ~tiwesdaeg julienxx: another bug/not bug
2020-05-21 17:52:19 ⚡ julienxx likes
2020-05-21 17:52:37 ~tiwesdaeg castor does not handle this well gemini://tilde.pink/~tiwesdaeg/
2020-05-21 17:52:43 makeworld What makes it bad? I'm open to hearing about it
2020-05-21 17:53:02 ~tiwesdaeg the color codes only partially work
2020-05-21 17:53:17 ~tiwesdaeg av98 and bombadillo display it correctly
2020-05-21 17:53:21 makeworld I thought it's different because it's not a social media feed, it's just a way to show you enjoy it. I guess it makes people petty though?
2020-05-21 17:53:44 ~tiwesdaeg social media concept is all about user generated content
2020-05-21 17:53:44 @julienxx makeworld: sorry I was just joking :)
2020-05-21 17:53:57 ~tiwesdaeg so, a like is part of that
2020-05-21 17:54:20 ~tiwesdaeg I think it's fun
2020-05-21 17:54:32 ~tiwesdaeg now make upvotes and downvotes ;P
2020-05-21 17:54:38 makeworld julienxx: Oh really? Ok
2020-05-21 17:54:50 makeworld tiwesdaeg That's where I draw the line :)
2020-05-21 17:55:06 ⚡ tiwesdaeg downvotes line drawing
2020-05-21 17:55:43 @julienxx Haha
2020-05-21 17:55:44 ⚡ makeworld retweet "Can you believe this guy"
2020-05-21 17:56:03 ~tiwesdaeg I feel like breaking castor is my new hobby
2020-05-21 17:59:40 @julienxx tiwesdaeg: I’ll have a look my color parsing code is far from complete
2020-05-21 18:00:40 @julienxx And there are too many ways to declare a color in ANSI
2020-05-21 18:02:34 @tomasino i love the idea of client-side only hearts
2020-05-21 18:02:42 @tomasino like bookmarks in the wild
2020-05-21 18:02:43 @tomasino :D
2020-05-21 18:02:50 makeworld Wdym?
2020-05-21 18:03:02 @tomasino if you hit a page that's cool, then click the heart
2020-05-21 18:03:15 @tomasino when you run across a link to it later, it can show up with a happy heart next to it
2020-05-21 18:03:47 ~tiwesdaeg so, something the gopher client would keep track of
2020-05-21 18:03:56 @tomasino or gemini, yep
2020-05-21 18:03:59 ~tiwesdaeg basically a bookmark
2020-05-21 18:04:12 @tomasino yep! it could even be a form of bookmarks
2020-05-21 18:04:20 ~tiwesdaeg make it a gem
2020-05-21 18:04:20 @tomasino but just "favs"
2020-05-21 18:04:53 @tomasino bookmarks have a contextual meaning to people and get used a certain way
2020-05-21 18:05:12 @tomasino even though the implementation is almost the same, just "heart"ing something or liking it, has another context
2020-05-21 18:05:16 ~tiwesdaeg 💎
2020-05-21 18:05:18 @julienxx That would be nice!
2020-05-21 18:05:19 @tomasino yeah
2020-05-21 18:05:25 @tomasino this this is a gem
2020-05-21 18:05:26 @tomasino :D
2020-05-21 18:05:30 ~tiwesdaeg there's a UTF-8 character gem stone
2020-05-21 18:05:44 @tomasino when i'm reading phlogs i wish i had something like that
2020-05-21 18:05:55 @tomasino i don't want to bookmark interesting ones, but i do want to mark them as particularly interesting
2020-05-21 18:06:03 @tomasino sometimes, weeks later, i may reference one in my own writing
2020-05-21 18:06:18 ~tiwesdaeg 💎log
2020-05-21 18:06:22 @tomasino !!
2020-05-21 18:06:22 ~tiwesdaeg just tring it out
2020-05-21 18:06:30 ~tiwesdaeg s/tring/trying
2020-05-21 18:06:47 ~tiwesdaeg it's a great character
2020-05-21 18:08:31 ~tiwesdaeg I need to change my locale info on tilde.pink
2020-05-21 18:08:41 @julienxx client-side would b ereally neat as it would remove the tracking part
2020-05-21 18:09:36 @tomasino yeah
2020-05-21 18:10:03 @tomasino save it in XDG_CACHE for fun & profit
2020-05-21 18:11:00 ~tiwesdaeg brb
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2020-05-21 18:12:45 ℹ Mode #gemini [+qo tiwesdaeg tiwesdaeg] by ChanServ
2020-05-21 18:13:05 ~tiwesdaeg hmm
2020-05-21 18:13:14 ~tiwesdaeg why does netbsd wlays have to make it hard
2020-05-21 18:13:32 ~tiwesdaeg locale is set to UTF-8 in my shell
2020-05-21 18:13:45 ~tiwesdaeg 💎
2020-05-21 18:13:51 ~tiwesdaeg ok, that did work
2020-05-21 18:14:17 ~tiwesdaeg I see a ? in the backlog
2020-05-21 18:19:31 @tomasino it works here
2020-05-21 18:19:40 @tomasino utf in irc is a couple layers of term settings
2020-05-21 18:19:42 @tomasino and locale
2020-05-21 18:21:11 ~tiwesdaeg I think a lot of linux distributions default to utf-8 for everything
2020-05-21 18:21:31 ~tiwesdaeg my debian weechat instance didn't need anything
2020-05-21 18:21:47 ~tiwesdaeg openbsd/netbsd, they default to ascii
2020-05-21 18:21:53 ⚡ wgreenhouse is here through emacs which is mostly utf-8 all the things
2020-05-21 18:22:07 wgreenhouse and has good ol' C-x 8 RET for entering emoji
2020-05-21 18:22:26 ~tiwesdaeg I just changed gemlog to 💎long on my 💎log ;P
2020-05-21 18:22:43 ~tiwesdaeg man, so many typos
2020-05-21 18:23:42 ~tiwesdaeg glowing-bear gives me a nice purple gemstone emoji
2020-05-21 18:27:39 @tomasino hah
2020-05-21 18:27:41 @tomasino it's blue here
2020-05-21 18:28:08 @tomasino https://ttm.sh/QQV.png
2020-05-21 18:28:19 wgreenhouse blue here as well (emacs on termux, so presumably using whatever the heck android emoji font)
2020-05-21 18:29:17 login blue here too
2020-05-21 18:29:44 login emoji hieroglyphics are not standardised it seems
2020-05-21 18:30:10 login it could diamond, gem or ruby
2020-05-21 18:30:17 wgreenhouse indeed. and on X11 (Symbola font) I think it'd be a monochrome outline
2020-05-21 18:30:28 login no emoji grammar either
2020-05-21 18:30:48 wgreenhouse true. like most creoles, that will accrete over time
2020-05-21 18:33:34 kayw blue for me too
2020-05-21 18:36:39 ~tiwesdaeg very pretty
2020-05-21 18:37:29 ~tiwesdaeg in castor it's displayed as the monochrome outline
2020-05-21 18:38:02 wgreenhouse probably Symbola or one of the other usual ttf fonts that covers this range
2020-05-21 18:38:53 ~tiwesdaeg well, we don't have inline images, but we have utf-8
2020-05-21 18:38:54 login the emoji is not stored in the font right?
2020-05-21 18:39:36 wgreenhouse login: it's a utf-8 codepoint, which whatever environment is responsible for coming up with a font that can display it
2020-05-21 18:40:08 wgreenhouse through whatever fallback mechanism (e.g. fontconfig on *nix/x11)
2020-05-21 18:40:36 ~tiwesdaeg it looks like glowing-bear uses emojione support
2020-05-21 18:41:27 wgreenhouse the gem is 0x1F48E, "GEM STONE"
2020-05-21 18:43:59 wgreenhouse hah, this termux/emacs can display BAGUETTE BREAD but not BAGEL
2020-05-21 18:44:39 ~tiwesdaeg we want bagels now
2020-05-21 18:46:00 ~tiwesdaeg I can't see 🥯 either
2020-05-21 18:48:03 wgreenhouse it's a fairly new emoji
2020-05-21 18:49:11 ~tiwesdaeg I installed symbola and now I can see 🥖
2020-05-21 18:49:16 wgreenhouse heheh
2020-05-21 18:49:30 ~tiwesdaeg bagel is still a box of fun
2020-05-21 18:49:52 wgreenhouse in fonts that can display it, it's usually a bagel sandwich with cream cheese
2020-05-21 18:50:06 wgreenhouse but as login says, the visual "hieroglyphs" are not standard
2020-05-21 18:50:45 kayw emojis break weechat for me https://i.salejandro.me/oiirif.png
2020-05-21 18:52:02 ~tiwesdaeg I wonder if that's your terminal displaying emojis
2020-05-21 18:52:43 kayw it could be kitty but idk
2020-05-21 18:52:52 kayw lemme try with alacritty really quick
2020-05-21 18:52:52 wgreenhouse yeah, weechat itself shouldn't care about utf-8
2020-05-21 18:53:12 kayw wow its even worse in alacritty
2020-05-21 18:53:24 wgreenhouse haha
2020-05-21 18:53:31 kayw https://i.salejandro.me/ETUubl.png
2020-05-21 18:54:04 ~tiwesdaeg xfce4-term isn't displaying them as emoji, just monochrome font
2020-05-21 18:54:31 wgreenhouse probably linking against fontconfig, and deciding symbola is eligible to display them
2020-05-21 18:54:48 wgreenhouse I think that is even hard coded in some distros
2020-05-21 18:55:45 wgreenhouse this is important stuff to know about, in case you are in some project where people use emojis in their git config messages
2020-05-21 18:55:50 wgreenhouse *commit messages
2020-05-21 18:59:58 ℹ tiwesdaeg has changed topic for #gemini from "Gemini (protocol) enthusiasts - gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | https://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | gopher://gemini.circumlunar.space/" to "💎 Gemini (protocol) enthusiasts - gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | https://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | gopher://gemini.circumlunar.space/"
2020-05-21 19:00:04 ~tiwesdaeg flair
2020-05-21 19:03:15 wgreenhouse my acid test for terminals is the emacs HELLO file which does a bunch of langauge scripts
2020-05-21 19:03:23 wgreenhouse it should also do emoji now
2020-05-21 19:03:27 kayw oh?
2020-05-21 19:03:39 kayw oh god emojis have ruined weechat
2020-05-21 19:03:42 wgreenhouse <f1> h in emacs
2020-05-21 19:03:54 kayw with `emacs -nw`?
2020-05-21 19:03:58 wgreenhouse yep
2020-05-21 19:04:04 wgreenhouse some terminals break amusingly on the RTL scripts like Arabic and Hebrew
2020-05-21 19:04:13 wgreenhouse like the whole terminal gets f'ed up if that's not supported
2020-05-21 19:04:16 wgreenhouse it's great
2020-05-21 19:04:26 kayw oh shit im using doom so it got rebound
2020-05-21 19:04:43 wgreenhouse kayw: the command is view-hello-file
2020-05-21 19:05:11 kayw well, kitty seemed to handle it well
2020-05-21 19:05:21 wgreenhouse including the right to left scripts?
2020-05-21 19:05:27 kayw yeah
2020-05-21 19:05:30 wgreenhouse nice
2020-05-21 19:05:38 kayw the docs for kitty include examples for RTL sscripts
2020-05-21 19:08:22 ~tiwesdaeg I had issues with kitty and terminfo on netbsd ;(
2020-05-21 19:08:46 wgreenhouse yeah, emoji is possibly a separate yak the devs haven't shaved yet
2020-05-21 19:09:14 @ben working emoji just means you have proper unicode support
2020-05-21 19:09:22 @ben nothing to shave, it works if your unicode works
2020-05-21 19:09:54 wgreenhouse kayw: you can try doing emoji nonsense in emacs -nw too and see if bad stuff happens. ucs-insert is the type arbitrary unicode command
2020-05-21 19:10:05 wgreenhouse but I suspect the terminal is to blame rather than weechat
2020-05-21 19:10:26 wgreenhouse ask for BAGUETTE BREAD for example
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2020-05-21 21:11:38 anton I think I asked before but does anyone have recommendations for gemini server software?
2020-05-21 21:21:05 mk270 anton: gemserv (and i say that as the author of a different server :) )
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2020-05-21 21:53:39 admicos I never realized _how_ much GTK on Windows is a pain
2020-05-21 21:54:01 admicos like, you can do the majority of the porting work quickly, but the last 2% of the details just never work
2020-05-21 21:54:04 admicos example: https://files.ecmelberk.com/img/1590097932.png
2020-05-21 21:54:20 anton mk270: I can't find anything about it. is there a web/gopher site?
2020-05-21 21:57:42 ~tiwesdaeg anton: I agree, gemserv has a bunch of features
2020-05-21 21:57:59 ~tiwesdaeg anton: it has a gemini site
2020-05-21 21:58:24 anton link?
2020-05-21 21:58:57 ~tiwesdaeg gemini://80h.dev/projects/gemserv/
2020-05-21 21:59:02 ~tiwesdaeg I was digging it up
2020-05-21 22:00:47 anton ty
2020-05-21 22:07:44 ~tiwesdaeg Np
2020-05-21 22:19:54 @julienxx admicos: I think you need to install a standard gtk theme like adwaita
2020-05-21 22:20:42 admicos when trying adwaita, the window buttons worked (close, minimize, etc) but the back, forward, etc didn't work
2020-05-21 22:21:56 @julienxx Weird, I had this issue for Castor and adding theme was usually enough
2020-05-21 22:49:01 @tomasino adwaita is a neat name
2020-05-21 22:49:08 @tomasino it reminds me of something i can't quite think of
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2020-05-22 04:05:51 anton do any tildes have a gemini client on them already
2020-05-22 04:27:55 styan anton: A few clients were installed on tilde.black recently.
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2020-05-22 04:34:44 anton ok i got gemini://antonmcclure.com up
2020-05-22 04:35:04 anton is there any documentation on how to make a site for it?
2020-05-22 04:37:01 styan There is text/gemini mime type described in the spec.
2020-05-22 04:37:15 kayw it's super simple to understand
2020-05-22 04:44:15 styan The spec is here: gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/docs/spec-spec.txt
2020-05-22 04:45:19 anton ty
2020-05-22 04:46:03 anton sorry if i'm asking stupid questions... new to gemini and don't exactly know where everything for it is
2020-05-22 04:47:34 styan The site in the channel's topic is the main site for the protocol.
2020-05-22 04:48:16 styan There are more resources it links to on the root page.
2020-05-22 04:48:47 anton ok
2020-05-22 04:48:56 anton I'll start working on the site tomorrow
2020-05-22 04:50:57 styan I do not think you are asking stupid questions, if that helps :-)
2020-05-22 04:52:57 styan Normal protocol and file-format specifications are separate, so unless you read the spec you may not assume that it contains a file-format.
2020-05-22 04:53:10 styan s/Normal/Normally/
2020-05-22 04:53:18 styan In my opinion, at least.
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2020-05-22 07:38:19 epoch hrm. either I have an old version or I've found two bugs.
2020-05-22 07:38:25 epoch (of castor)
2020-05-22 07:52:53 epoch mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. to make an account and a whole issue, or just dump bug here, or in PM?
2020-05-22 07:56:47 epoch castor gemini://127.0.0.1:12345/ still tries to get the page from port 1965 instead of the expected port 12345
2020-05-22 07:57:10 @julienxx Are you using the latest version?
2020-05-22 07:57:14 epoch I think so
2020-05-22 07:57:32 @julienxx I fixed that like yesterday I think
2020-05-22 07:57:34 epoch did a git pull and rm and make and make install
2020-05-22 07:57:38 epoch hrm.
2020-05-22 07:57:46 epoch I thought I had heard something about it being fixed.
2020-05-22 07:58:22 ⚡ epoch deletes all copies of castor
2020-05-22 07:58:44 epoch I might have needed a "make clean" before make again
2020-05-22 07:59:00 epoch heh. now to wait for a full recompile
2020-05-22 07:59:23 epoch the other one was an empty response from the server
2020-05-22 07:59:47 epoch I tested with ncat --ssl -l -p 1965, then when castor sent the URL, I pressed ctrl+D in ncat
2020-05-22 08:01:11 epoch I'd give a backtrace, but it should be easy to reproduce if it isn't my fault for having an old version
2020-05-22 08:01:35 @julienxx This should still fail in the last version
2020-05-22 08:03:05 @julienxx I think I see why it would crash
2020-05-22 08:03:15 @julienxx Thanks for the report!
2020-05-22 08:03:28 epoch np
2020-05-22 08:04:09 epoch I found the empty-response one by accident when my server had a bug in it
2020-05-22 08:04:26 epoch bugs helping find bugs
2020-05-22 08:07:12 epoch 💎
2020-05-22 08:07:43 epoch ♊
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2020-05-22 08:23:19 epoch holy scrap, rustc was using like, 118% CPU, which, since 1 is 100% of 1 CPU, is a SHITLOAD
2020-05-22 08:23:43 epoch 11800%
2020-05-22 08:24:46 epoch oooooh. I know what I did wrong.
2020-05-22 08:24:58 epoch I didn't read the error message from git when I did "git pull"
2020-05-22 08:28:20 epoch yeah, port number thing working now. still doing the 'called `Option::unwrap()` on a `None` value' thing on empty reponse
2020-05-22 08:34:46 epoch gemini://thebackupbox.net/radio :P
2020-05-22 08:34:48 @julienxx Yep it’s trying to find a CLRF and crashing I suppose
2020-05-22 08:36:37 epoch gemini://thebackupbox.net/now-playing.txt
2020-05-22 08:45:20 epoch when should gemini clients give up on a large file?
2020-05-22 08:46:04 epoch ncat --ssl -klp 1965 -c 'yes'
2020-05-22 09:52:43 epoch hrm. with all the problems of text/* line endings, nobody's suggested application/gemini instead of using text/gemini
2020-05-22 09:52:48 epoch (so far that I've read)
2020-05-22 10:12:07 styan I am still unsure about how to approach literate code, but I have my Retro Forth Glitch implementation on my tilde.black gemini directory.
2020-05-22 10:12:39 styan gemini://tilde.black/users/styan/retro/glitch.retro
2020-05-22 10:13:53 styan It actually compiles glitch bytecode, to retro's bytecode.
2020-05-22 10:15:34 styan Note, it outputs an 8khz u8 stream to the standard output.
2020-05-22 10:16:25 styan Also, I don't know what kind of (non-custom) tools can turn that into audio.
2020-05-22 10:27:59 xwindows styan: something | ffmpeg -f u8 -ar 8000 -ac 1 -i - -acodec pcm_u8 pcm.wav
2020-05-22 10:28:33 xwindows where `something` is your mystery audio-producing code.
2020-05-22 10:29:27 xwindows and `pcm.wav` is the RIFF WAVE output filename.
2020-05-22 10:30:29 styan I should put that in the file as a note.
2020-05-22 10:30:47 styan I have been using my own audio tools for a while.
2020-05-22 10:54:13 styan I also added an example using NetBSD's audioplay(1).
2020-05-22 10:55:07 styan aucat(1) did not do well with mono input.
2020-05-22 10:55:37 styan xwindows: Thanks for the input.
2020-05-22 11:00:23 xwindows styan: actually: something | ffmpeg -f u8 -ar 8000 -ac 1 -i - -acodec copy pcm.wav
2020-05-22 11:00:58 xwindows should work better if you need to change the sample format/frequency/channel count often
2020-05-22 11:02:09 xwindows (Note that I just changed `-acodec pcm_u8` to `-acodec copy`)
2020-05-22 11:03:08 styan Maybe I should just have it output an Au stream.
2020-05-22 11:13:52 styan I also added aplay(1) and paplay(1) to the examples. I am always unthrilled to see "[options]" in a man-page.
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2020-05-22 21:36:31 ℹ Topic for #gemini is "💎 Gemini (protocol) enthusiasts - gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | https://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | gopher://gemini.circumlunar.space/"
2020-05-22 21:36:31 ℹ Topic set by tiwesdaeg (~tiwesdaeg@tilde.pink) on Thu, 21 May 2020 18:59:58
2020-05-22 21:39:25 @tomasino I'm on mobile and can't recall.. can someone drop a Gemini proxy link in here for me
2020-05-22 21:39:49 @tomasino Unless we have a mobile client I can install on my phone without having to build it
2020-05-22 21:42:08 kayw tomasino: https://portal.mozz.us/
2020-05-22 21:42:15 @tomasino Danke
2020-05-22 21:42:19 kayw np
2020-05-22 21:43:10 @tomasino https://portal.mozz.us/gemini/tilde.black:1965/users/fox/
2020-05-22 21:43:24 @tomasino :( sad render
2020-05-22 21:43:58 kayw damn
2020-05-22 21:44:06 kayw i wonder how mine renders
2020-05-22 21:44:24 kayw oh it renders very nicely
2020-05-22 21:44:25 @tomasino It looks like it's the ``` alt
2020-05-22 21:44:34 @tomasino Throwing it off
2020-05-22 21:44:43 @tomasino Not in spec yet
2020-05-22 21:44:47 kayw yeah sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt
2020-05-22 21:45:14 @tomasino Brb! Reading to a boy
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2020-05-22 21:59:27 @tomasino Back
2020-05-22 22:01:10 jan6 lol maybe make a FAQ page and put it in the topic, "web proxies at these addresses, blablabla"
2020-05-22 22:04:00 @tomasino https://proxy.vulpes.one/gemini/tilde.black:1965/users/fox/
2020-05-22 22:04:32 @tomasino The links are on the Gemini page hosted at circumlunar, but it's not up to date on the web version
2020-05-22 22:04:42 @tomasino I was in a catch 22
2020-05-22 22:05:05 @tomasino This proxy seems to just ignore ``` blocks completely
2020-05-22 22:05:48 @tomasino Or maybe it's the alt text again
2020-05-22 22:05:51 @tomasino Not sure
2020-05-22 22:06:00 kayw i think it's just ``` blocks
2020-05-22 22:09:27 @tomasino Same issue
2020-05-22 22:09:40 @tomasino They're checking the whole line for only ```
2020-05-22 22:09:46 @tomasino Not the first 3 characters
2020-05-22 22:10:06 @tomasino In this case the block is not rendered at all
2020-05-22 22:10:12 @tomasino Interesting
2020-05-22 22:11:03 @tomasino The first proxy doesn't recognize the line as valid and ends up inverting the code fence
2020-05-22 22:11:18 @tomasino The second proxy recognizes the line but hides the block
2020-05-22 22:11:24 @tomasino Fascinating
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2020-05-23 00:56:16 epoch any gemini clients have fragment_id support?
2020-05-23 00:56:57 epoch text/plain has a specification for what a fragment id could do
2020-05-23 00:58:36 epoch https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5147
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2020-05-23 03:01:52 epoch for syntax highlighting you could do multipart with content types like: text/c or test/perl (file --mime-type something.c) will output text/x-c
2020-05-23 03:08:29 styan I wonder, should I tag blocks with "code-$lang" or just "code"?
2020-05-23 03:11:38 styan epoch: If you did not see, I wrote an interpreter for that RPN bytebeat thing we talked about a few days ago.
2020-05-23 03:11:43 makeworld Can someone give me the TL;DR about the latest spec change emails
2020-05-23 03:12:02 makeworld There's 58 new emails in that thread for me to read through :0
2020-05-23 03:15:40 kayw I myself haven't even began to scratch the surface of those emails
2020-05-23 03:16:19 @ben the gemini list is so lively
2020-05-23 03:17:58 makeworld Yeah
2020-05-23 03:18:10 makeworld That has its pros and cons I guess
2020-05-23 03:18:20 makeworld Anyway, if anyone has read them I'd be happy for an update
2020-05-23 03:19:42 @ben i haven't posted anything to the list yet
2020-05-23 03:20:08 @ben and if there are more than like 5 messages i usually end up just marking them all read lol
2020-05-23 03:21:27 styan This appears to be the result: https://lists.orbitalfox.eu/archives/gemini/2020/000969.html
2020-05-23 03:23:11 styan Line-ending in text/gemini will be /\r?\n/, responses will be separated by exactly one space, SNI is manditory.
2020-05-23 03:23:21 styan s/ending/&s/
2020-05-23 03:23:37 @ben i've been getting some emails from people responding to tildegit issues
2020-05-23 03:24:10 @ben unfortunately gitea doesn't support incoming mail handling yet
2020-05-23 03:24:30 makeworld styan: Thanks for digging for that! Helpful
2020-05-23 03:24:46 makeworld Those all sound like good changes, I'm glad he came around to allowing just LF too
2020-05-23 03:25:39 styan makeworld: I cheated a bit and just clicked solderpunk's responses until I found something interesting. :-)
2020-05-23 03:25:58 makeworld Hehe, whatever works
2020-05-23 03:27:27 makeworld Feels good to mark all 58 emails as read :)
2020-05-23 04:21:53 makeworld What should I do if I want to host my www site on Github Pages, but my gemini site obv on my personal server
2020-05-23 04:22:17 makeworld I guess I could switch to using a `gem` subdomain for my Gemini server?
2020-05-23 04:22:18 @ben www CNAME for user.github.io
2020-05-23 04:22:43 @ben send @ http redirect to www
2020-05-23 04:22:45 makeworld Yeah, but not having the apex domain work on the web would suck
2020-05-23 04:22:55 @ben just set up a redirect
2020-05-23 04:23:01 makeworld Like have my personal server send the redirect?
2020-05-23 04:23:41 makeworld Yeah I guess, and if any content gets popular it should be a big deal, bc redirects are small and I'll set it to be a permanent redirect
2020-05-23 04:23:57 makeworld And then my gemini site is still first class
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2020-05-23 04:26:30 @ben yeah redirects are not a big deal
2020-05-23 04:26:46 @ben people generally redirect from www to non-www and vice versa
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2020-05-23 04:32:34 makeworld Boom, done - thanks
2020-05-23 04:32:49 @ben lol sure
2020-05-23 04:33:20 styan I think I am done polishing my first big Retro Forth / Gemini page.
2020-05-23 04:34:05 kayw oo neat
2020-05-23 04:34:19 kayw i dont think i've shared mine here but its gemini://salejandro.me
2020-05-23 04:34:24 styan gemini://tilde.black/styan/users/retro/
2020-05-23 04:35:32 styan kayw: That is the roundest ASCII-art text.
2020-05-23 04:35:45 kayw `basic` font in figlet
2020-05-23 04:39:41 styan I am not quite sure how I feel about literate-programming.
2020-05-23 04:56:19 @tomasino i think that url should be gemini://tilde.black/users/styan/retro/
2020-05-23 04:57:02 @tomasino and also, cool
2020-05-23 04:59:36 styan tomasino: Wow, that is a weird mistake.
2020-05-23 05:00:08 styan I think I may have been writing too much Forth today, everything is getting flipped around.
2020-05-23 05:01:39 epoch has quit (Ping timeout: 120 seconds)
2020-05-23 05:02:51 styan I am glad you found it interesting though.
2020-05-23 05:08:36 styan Here are some stats for the gemini page: 23 preformatted blocks, 219 preformatted lines, 84 blank lines, 119 other lines.
2020-05-23 05:29:13 styan Retro's vm has a C# implementation. If you run my code with that there would be 3 stack-based VMs running on top of one another.
2020-05-23 05:29:54 styan How many stack-based VMs could you get to before something overflows?
2020-05-23 08:41:32 jan6 infinite, if done right
2020-05-23 08:45:28 jan6 the text/plain fragment id support thingy seems real cool
2020-05-23 08:45:41 jan6 sure would hope it gets included in some clients
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2020-05-23 12:03:45 @tomasino Hmm, I wonder if you could create an infinite loop of two VMs that have each other mounted
2020-05-23 12:10:15 @tomasino Fragment id is interesting in Gemini context
2020-05-23 12:11:20 @tomasino I'm hoping solderpunk makes some decision on code fence alt text soon. I'm using it in places now and is breaking some clients. I'd like to see that settled one way or another
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2020-05-23 13:39:54 jan6 lol
2020-05-23 13:40:02 jan6 lol @ loop, I meant
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2020-05-23 14:53:03 ~tiwesdaeg jan6 <--> jan6 = boom
2020-05-23 14:54:30 jan6 what
2020-05-23 14:54:44 jan6 "separate jan6 from jan6 to create an explosion"?
2020-05-23 14:54:49 m68k you heard of splitting an atom?
2020-05-23 14:55:09 jan6 kinda
2020-05-23 14:55:18 jan6 it's hard to do
2020-05-23 15:04:50 @tomasino nah, it's easy
2020-05-23 15:04:52 @tomasino atoms do it all the time
2020-05-23 15:05:34 m68k i love how solderpunk constantly says CR instead of LF and it confuses someone every time
2020-05-23 15:07:30 Ernoz has quit (Client exited)
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2020-05-23 15:10:19 @tomasino it's pretty funny
2020-05-23 15:13:01 m68k "wait we *just* talked about this, why are you insisting we support 40-year-old dead systems and not Linux?"
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2020-05-23 16:57:30 makeworld Lol ik
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2020-05-23 19:42:15 ℹ Mode #gemini [+o julienxx] by ChanServ
2020-05-23 19:59:38 @julienxx is gemini.circumlunar.space down or is it just me?
2020-05-23 20:03:30 kayw uhh, ill check
2020-05-23 20:03:54 kayw i can connect over https
2020-05-23 20:04:15 kayw and over gemini
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2020-05-23 20:45:36 ~tiwesdaeg julienxx: works for me over castor
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2020-05-23 21:25:19 makeworld julienxx: isup.me is a good site to check stuff like this, for http anyway
2020-05-23 21:52:18 @julienxx Thanks, apparently it had a small downtime just when I tried but it’s now in order :)
2020-05-23 21:54:07 @julienxx By the way my server (typed-hole.org) and my bouncer will be offline for a week or more as I’ll be moving starting tomorrow so see ya in some days!
2020-05-23 22:07:06 makeworld Aww the cert is expired
2020-05-23 22:07:51 makeworld But that's a cool server for it, what are the RPi Zeros doing?
2020-05-23 22:08:38 makeworld Do you... have them on a HAT connecting to a full RPi? That's crazy
2020-05-23 22:11:41 kayw yeah, such a hat exists
2020-05-23 22:11:45 kayw i need to get one myself
2020-05-23 22:11:54 makeworld Got a link for it? It sounds interesting?
2020-05-23 22:11:57 kayw do a little screwing around with cluster computing
2020-05-23 22:12:05 kayw uhh, i forget the name, gimmie a sec
2020-05-23 22:12:27 kayw you can probably find it by searching for "cluster rpi hat"
2020-05-23 22:12:27 makeworld What's the point though, clustering with such low powered devices? Like wouldn't just an RPi be enough? I get it just for fun though
2020-05-23 22:12:54 makeworld kayw: https://clusterhat.com/
2020-05-23 22:12:57 makeworld I think I got it
2020-05-23 22:13:31 makeworld Man, that's weird
2020-05-23 22:13:33 makeworld Cool though ofc
2020-05-23 22:14:39 @julienxx That’s what I use, pretty cool device! I have finger, gopher, http and the bouncer running on one of each basically
2020-05-23 22:14:57 makeworld And what about the main Pi?
2020-05-23 22:15:02 @julienxx I don’t really use the cluster part, more like a little data center at home
2020-05-23 22:15:10 @julienxx It’s a pi3
2020-05-23 22:15:16 makeworld Ah, cool
2020-05-23 22:15:20 makeworld No I meant what runs on it
2020-05-23 22:16:04 @julienxx I think nothing right now ^^ everything is on the zeroes
2020-05-23 22:16:10 makeworld I wonder how the perf compares to just running it all on a Pi 3 or 4, or using Docker on them
2020-05-23 22:16:11 makeworld Oh lol
2020-05-23 22:16:37 @julienxx Ah yes I have my CLI Gemini client in kiosk mode on the main Pi
2020-05-23 22:18:43 @julienxx Initially I wanted to do cool clustering stuff on it but then this is what I do at work these days so I preferred to run services the old way for a change... I guess a zero would be enough for everything at the moment :D
2020-05-23 22:19:51 makeworld If it ain't broke
2020-05-23 22:22:17 @julienxx It a cool device, too bad it’s Linux only
2020-05-23 22:23:27 @julienxx One issue with self-hosting on Pi’s is the SD cards though, they tend to break easily
2020-05-23 23:20:24 makeworld I've *finally* setup a blog on both the web and Gemini...
2020-05-23 23:20:30 makeworld Now comes the hard part, lol
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2020-05-23 23:25:55 kayw i need to host my own gopher server and then i'll have everything set up
2020-05-23 23:26:10 kayw right now im just using .club's gopher hosting
2020-05-23 23:34:00 makeworld Working on my Gemini comment system now - is it a problem to show the IP address of who's commenting?
2020-05-23 23:34:27 makeworld They'll have a username too, but I figure showing IP address helps combat impersonation using Unicode tricks, etc
2020-05-23 23:36:01 kayw maybe not their IP, but some sort of identifier based on their IP?
2020-05-23 23:37:30 kayw like, take their IP and pass it through base64 or something similar, and their id is the first 5/6 characters
2020-05-23 23:37:34 makeworld Shortened IP hash, maybe, good thinking
2020-05-23 23:38:10 makeworld Base64 could work I guess, but I like a hash better because you can just reverse base64
2020-05-23 23:39:11 styan Also, a full IPv6 address is 39 characters, which is about half the recommended columns for text/gemini.
2020-05-23 23:39:44 makeworld tiwesdaeg: Can you kick makeworld_ ? I think it's some client bug thing, idk
2020-05-23 23:40:10 makeworld styan: afaik Gemini has no recommended column length, because everything soft wraps
2020-05-23 23:42:35 styan I thought I read that somewhere, my mind is playing tricks on me.
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2020-05-24 01:37:36 ~tiwesdaeg makeworld: I could have kicked it from the channel, but not the server.
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2020-05-24 01:47:27 styan I made something that enables circular pipelines, to see if I could wrap netcat or openssl-s_client around other utilites.
2020-05-24 01:49:43 styan There is a Gemini example with it: https://tildegit.org/styan/fdwrap/src/branch/master/example-gemini.sh
2020-05-24 01:50:50 styan Unfortunately it does not work with things as well as I had hoped.
2020-05-24 01:58:13 makeworld tiwesdaeg: Channel's fine
2020-05-24 01:58:33 makeworld Oh nvm, I see you tried that
2020-05-24 01:58:42 makeworld Idk why it's there, doesn't matter I guess
2020-05-24 02:12:14 tiwesdaeg has kicked makeworld_ (tiwesdaeg)
2020-05-24 02:12:17 ~tiwesdaeg there you go
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2020-05-24 03:16:53 lick ben: are the ~team gemini userdirs currently functional?
2020-05-24 03:17:16 @ben uh
2020-05-24 03:17:19 @ben not sure
2020-05-24 03:30:19 pokes has quit (Ping timeout: 120 seconds)
2020-05-24 03:32:46 makeworld Test
2020-05-24 03:33:19 makeworld K thanks tiwesdae g
2020-05-24 03:34:09 @ben any ideas on when the software list will be available on http
2020-05-24 03:34:43 @ben tiwesdaeg: which geminid was the one that supports userdirs
2020-05-24 03:34:58 ~tiwesdaeg gemserv
2020-05-24 03:35:21 @ben can you link it?
2020-05-24 03:35:32 ~tiwesdaeg Not on my phone
2020-05-24 03:35:37 @ben the one i'm seeing is gemserve
2020-05-24 03:35:39 @ben with an e
2020-05-24 03:35:42 @ben is that the same ?
2020-05-24 03:35:56 ~tiwesdaeg Solderpunk spelled it wrong
2020-05-24 03:36:05 ~tiwesdaeg That's the one
2020-05-24 03:36:20 @ben oh lol
2020-05-24 03:36:29 @ben ok i'll try that one out
2020-05-24 03:36:40 ~tiwesdaeg Should compile with rustup stable
2020-05-24 03:36:54 @ben i don't use rustup on here
2020-05-24 03:37:26 ~tiwesdaeg Hmm, you can if it doesn't compile with the rust package
2020-05-24 03:37:44 ~tiwesdaeg Rustup installs in your user directory
2020-05-24 03:37:51 @ben yeah i know
2020-05-24 03:37:57 @ben it takes up crazy amounts of disk space
2020-05-24 03:38:19 ~tiwesdaeg Remove when done ;P
2020-05-24 03:38:29 @ben ehh i guess
2020-05-24 03:39:11 ~tiwesdaeg There's a branch that allows for CGI in any directory
2020-05-24 03:39:27 ~tiwesdaeg Even an executable index.gmi
2020-05-24 03:39:42 ~tiwesdaeg I'm using it now for tilde.pink
2020-05-24 03:40:41 @ben it doesn't want to install rustup alongside rust
2020-05-24 03:40:55 @ben what's stable rust on now?
2020-05-24 03:40:58 @ben i have 1.41
2020-05-24 03:41:17 @ben oh huh ok the compilation error is something about the openssl version
2020-05-24 03:42:10 ~tiwesdaeg Yeah, rust and openssl aren't fun
2020-05-24 03:42:50 @ben downgrading libressl
2020-05-24 03:43:09 @ben looks like it's expecting libressl 3.0, not 3.1
2020-05-24 03:43:47 ~tiwesdaeg I had that on openbsd
2020-05-24 03:44:21 ~tiwesdaeg I don't like the openssl crate. It's too picky.
2020-05-24 03:44:43 @ben bleh
2020-05-24 03:45:57 ~tiwesdaeg This is easier that the lisp server
2020-05-24 03:46:15 ~tiwesdaeg S/that/than
2020-05-24 03:46:22 @ben lol
2020-05-24 03:46:27 ~tiwesdaeg OK, bedtime.
2020-05-24 03:46:31 @ben cheers
2020-05-24 04:19:33 epoch what is the dir that people put in their ~? public_gemini?
2020-05-24 04:19:41 epoch ~/.local/var/gemini ?
2020-05-24 04:20:51 epoch ~/public_html seems like a default value you were meant to change that got turned into a defacto-standard
2020-05-24 04:21:09 @ben public_gemini
2020-05-24 04:21:52 epoch I usually use /var/[protocol]/ for server-wide, except I use www instead of http...
2020-05-24 04:22:55 epoch so I have like, /var/{gopher,gemini,ftp,git,www}/
2020-05-24 04:25:00 @ben yep same
2020-05-24 04:27:11 makeworld Yeah
2020-05-24 04:27:27 makeworld I'm so close to getting my comment system working
2020-05-24 04:27:36 makeworld But I'm also so tired lol
2020-05-24 04:28:12 @ben bah i can't get gemserv to run
2020-05-24 04:31:48 epoch I'm using a like, 30-line shell script as my gemini server
2020-05-24 04:32:13 makeworld Haha perfect
2020-05-24 04:32:13 kayw i might write my own gemini server, idk
2020-05-24 04:32:16 kayw i've got the time
2020-05-24 04:32:16 epoch no home dir support, but it does dynamic pages
2020-05-24 04:32:51 epoch I'm also using some C programs for some parts of it, which probably makes it shorter. :/
2020-05-24 04:33:04 epoch and other scripts I made for other reasons..
2020-05-24 04:33:43 wgreenhouse epoch: which shell? I know zsh has a tcp server built in
2020-05-24 04:33:46 epoch like "mime-type" script which I made for my httpd to pick the right mime type based on file --mime-type and file extension
2020-05-24 04:33:53 epoch the "server" part is socat
2020-05-24 04:33:58 ⚡ wgreenhouse nods
2020-05-24 04:34:07 epoch exec socat openssl-listen:1965,certificate=/etc/letsencrypt/https.crt,key=/etc/letsencrypt/keys/https.key.pem,verify=0,fork,reuseaddr exec:/service/gemini/gemini.sh
2020-05-24 04:34:25 epoch need to swap the cert eventually...
2020-05-24 04:39:22 makeworld Haha I've used the `file --mime-type` trick before for other stuff
2020-05-24 04:46:29 epoch git://thebackupbox.net/shell-daemons
2020-05-24 04:46:59 epoch contains gopherd, httpd, and gemini and some support scripts/source-code
2020-05-24 04:47:46 epoch still missing stuff and I don't suggest anyone else run it without reading it first.
2020-05-24 04:47:57 makeworld Omg I got it working
2020-05-24 04:48:21 makeworld emini://makeworld.gq/gemlog/2020-05-21-first.gmi
2020-05-24 04:48:30 makeworld gemini://makeworld.gq/gemlog/2020-05-21-first.gmi
2020-05-24 04:48:36 makeworld Come try it out, add some comments!
2020-05-24 04:49:27 @ben nice
2020-05-24 04:49:39 @ben i still haven't been able to get gemserv running
2020-05-24 04:49:50 makeworld Code and mailing list announcement with probably be posted tomorrow
2020-05-24 04:49:54 makeworld Eyy you added one
2020-05-24 04:49:58 makeworld Glad to see it works!
2020-05-24 04:50:02 epoch what client has it been tested in?
2020-05-24 04:50:06 makeworld Sorry about that though
2020-05-24 04:50:17 makeworld epoch: My thing? Just Bombadillo rn
2020-05-24 04:50:17 @ben bombadillo
2020-05-24 04:50:27 epoch the like worked in castor, but commenting seemed to not
2020-05-24 04:50:29 @ben target/release/gemserv: error while loading shared libraries: libssl.so.47: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
2020-05-24 04:51:36 makeworld epoch: Uh oh, let me try
2020-05-24 04:51:54 epoch I might have an old version of castor with how often stuff changes with gemini
2020-05-24 04:52:27 epoch (git pull said I'm good)
2020-05-24 04:52:58 makeworld Can confirm castor fails. I will look into this
2020-05-24 04:53:50 styan Hmm, OpneBSD's vis(1) does not have the `-h' option.
2020-05-24 04:54:01 makeworld Ugh it looks like Bombadillo doesn't escape query strings but castor does. Castor is correct here
2020-05-24 04:54:49 makeworld styan: I assume you were using geminiawk? You need to escape your query strings too then
2020-05-24 04:55:26 styan Yes, it failed to run them though vis(1) to escape it.
2020-05-24 05:01:45 makeworld Castor works now! :)
2020-05-24 05:03:21 makeworld And bombadillo still does too! Unless you try and put % signs in your comment
2020-05-24 05:03:43 makeworld I filed an issue about not escaping the query strings. I'll mention it in my announcement tomorrow
2020-05-24 05:04:45 makeworld Alright, I'm off
2020-05-24 05:05:24 kayw cya
2020-05-24 05:10:32 gbmor i've been playing around with gemini in rust. i like how simple the protocol is. really refreshing.
2020-05-24 05:21:02 @ben lick: gemserv is up and running on ~team
2020-05-24 05:21:33 @ben also i've been getting some mails from people trying to respond to issues on tildegit
2020-05-24 05:21:40 @ben gitea doesn't handle incoming mail yet
2020-05-24 05:40:48 styan I fixed geminawk(1), the only non-POSIX utility it relies on is a nc(1) with TLS support, or openssl(1) for `s_client'. So it should run on almost anything, without compiling anything.
2020-05-24 05:41:49 styan It also grew proxy support a few days ago.
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2020-05-24 08:27:56 login hi plugd
2020-05-24 08:31:50 jan ncgopher now supports gemini queries. finally. i also added gus and houston to the search menu: https://jan.bio/ncgopher-search.png
2020-05-24 09:28:09 plugd has quit (The TLS connection was non-properly terminated.)
2020-05-24 09:43:22 epoch am I interpreting the spec correctly when...
2020-05-24 09:44:09 epoch let's say, page: prompt?prompt%20value returns 10 prompt value
2020-05-24 09:44:29 epoch the user input would replace prompt%20value in the URI, and then be re-requested?
2020-05-24 09:46:54 styan That is how I interpreted it.
2020-05-24 09:47:55 styan It says "separated from the path by a ?", and the "path" does not include the query.
2020-05-24 09:48:35 epoch was wondering how the comment page on makeworld's site works.
2020-05-24 09:49:01 epoch since the thing to be commented on is stored in the previous page's query string
2020-05-24 09:49:50 styan I wonder what would happen if you type just the page's name?
2020-05-24 09:50:13 styan Oooh.
2020-05-24 09:50:32 styan It says that the comment is separated from the user name by a space.
2020-05-24 09:51:12 styan So unless makeworld makes a page with "%20" there will not be any collisions.
2020-05-24 09:52:41 epoch but, how does it know which page gets the comment?
2020-05-24 09:53:17 styan That is a good question. It is a prototype so maybe it is hard-coded.
2020-05-24 09:54:33 styan I just added a comment on the add-comment script though...
2020-05-24 09:55:53 ℹ epoch is now known as `epoch
2020-05-24 10:03:34 julienxx has quit (Ping timeout: 120 seconds)
2020-05-24 10:05:35 styan makeworld: I am pretty sure that I can `..' out of your gemini directory...
2020-05-24 10:06:56 styan gemini://makeworld.gq/../../var/gemini/ is the same as gemini://makeworld.gq/
2020-05-24 10:08:04 login ooh, that seems like a bug in geminid, to allow that
2020-05-24 10:09:08 styan I did not try to actually poke around though, because that would be really rude and invasive.
2020-05-24 10:09:52 styan So maybe the server just resolves the path and sees that it leads to a valid directory.
2020-05-24 10:10:26 styan That would still be an information leak, but much less of one.
2020-05-24 10:11:28 styan Also, I left comments on some CGI scripts.
2020-05-24 10:25:17 styan I am pretty sure makeworld's comment system remembers the last path passed to `add-comment', probably per ip address, and adds the comment to that path.
2020-05-24 10:33:44 login so it's.... stateful??
2020-05-24 10:34:22 `epoch it might make sense to pass the target as the PATH_INFO
2020-05-24 10:34:37 styan login: that is my guess.
2020-05-24 10:34:46 `epoch like /cgi-bin/add-comment.cgi/target-page
2020-05-24 10:35:08 `epoch which would return a 10, and the submitted URL would be
2020-05-24 10:35:17 `epoch like /cgi-bin/add-comment.cgi/target-page?comment%20goes%20here
2020-05-24 10:36:23 styan The server would have to support that. I did check by turning off redirects and it, currently, does not do that.
2020-05-24 10:37:25 `epoch are there any gemini servers that support running CGIs and passing a PATH_INFO to them?
2020-05-24 10:38:46 `epoch also, that comment posting system is not "indempotent"? I think I'm using that right.
2020-05-24 10:39:09 `epoch I'm gonna go to bed I think.
2020-05-24 10:43:13 styan After looking up "indempotent", I think a comment system could only be considered to be that if posting a comment twice were impossible.
2020-05-24 10:44:45 styan Good night epoch.
2020-05-24 10:53:48 login so each posting would require both the issuance of an id prior to posting
2020-05-24 10:53:54 login and a signature of said id with time of issual and expiry
2020-05-24 10:54:06 login to be checked to ensure a "fake id" was not issued
2020-05-24 10:54:10 login or reused
2020-05-24 11:01:40 styan If you are talking about the "indempotent" thing. From my breif look at the word it means that "repeating the operation will not change the result", so if the operation is posting a comment, and the result is a particular comment being posted, an indempotent comment system would not allow the same operation to post an additional comment.
2020-05-24 11:05:08 styan The examples I saw were similar to `a |= b' is indempotent, `a += b' is not. (unless 'b' is zero, of course)
2020-05-24 11:33:45 `epoch well, like, I could link to a URL that would post a comment, and anyone that opened the URL would create a new comment. Usually with HTTP people avoid doing that and reserve the actions that can change things for POSTs, which can't be directly linked to.
2020-05-24 11:34:19 `epoch like the gemini search engine might try to spider down a link I put on my gemini site, that would post a comment each time it spiders through it
2020-05-24 11:36:01 `epoch so, gemini should get a POST-like thing, or should people just not use the GET-like input request for this kind of stuff?
2020-05-24 11:36:14 `epoch and maybe put a mailto: link for comments
2020-05-24 11:37:04 styan I thought I read something about a `robots.txt' for gemini.
2020-05-24 11:38:39 ⚡ `epoch tests gemini://makeworld.gq/cgi-bin/gemlikes/add-comment?hack%20I%20open%20URLs%20that%20post%20comments
2020-05-24 11:42:28 `epoch looks like makeworld isn't working atm
2020-05-24 11:42:35 `epoch oh well, I wanna go to bed still.
2020-05-24 11:42:37 `epoch g'night
2020-05-24 11:43:03 styan Good night.
2020-05-24 11:43:17 makeworld has quit (Ping timeout: 120 seconds)
2020-05-24 11:44:45 login it still means you can post multiple comments if you click "submit" in quick succession on a slow connection with no js to disable the submit button as soon as pressed
2020-05-24 11:48:39 @tomasino yes, there's a robots thing
2020-05-24 12:30:18 ~tiwesdaeg so much gemini talk while I slept
2020-05-24 12:30:27 ~tiwesdaeg and hooray for getting it working ben
2020-05-24 12:44:26 wingy has quit (Ping timeout: 120 seconds)
2020-05-24 12:48:39 ~tiwesdaeg Weird, my script for generating links to user's gemini directories somehow was writing to the main index.gmi
2020-05-24 13:19:05 ▬▬▶ makeworld has joined #gemini
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2020-05-24 14:21:57 ▬▬▶ jba has joined #gemini
2020-05-24 14:27:15 ~tiwesdaeg I think it was a cat >> EOF command used improperly
2020-05-24 14:53:45 login i never understood how the >>EOF works
2020-05-24 14:59:50 anton how's this for a start? gemini://antonmcclure.com:1965/
2020-05-24 15:09:07 jba anton: i couldn't connect
2020-05-24 15:10:04 anton oh
2020-05-24 15:10:22 ⚡ anton forgot to open port in firewall
2020-05-24 15:10:48 anton jba: does it work now
2020-05-24 15:11:18 jba anton: yep! the client kept trying. when i switched tabs it was up.
2020-05-24 15:13:16 jan works here too :)
2020-05-24 15:13:39 anton :)
2020-05-24 15:14:11 anton forgot to allow port 1965 in firewall lol
2020-05-24 15:14:44 jan nice site, anton!
2020-05-24 15:15:01 anton ty
2020-05-24 15:15:05 jba ya, there's lot's there, anton
2020-05-24 15:21:50 makeworld has quit (Client exited)
2020-05-24 15:25:08 jba has quit (Client exited)
2020-05-24 16:10:17 @ben is there a way to get gemserv to list users that have ~/public_gemini ?
2020-05-24 16:36:06 ~tiwesdaeg Ben, yes, with the CGI anywhere branch
2020-05-24 16:36:20 ~tiwesdaeg Look at tilde.pink right now
2020-05-24 16:36:39 ~tiwesdaeg That list is generated dynamically
2020-05-24 16:37:13 ~tiwesdaeg I'm not sure when into 80h plans to merge that in to master
2020-05-24 16:37:47 ~tiwesdaeg s/into/int
2020-05-24 16:38:49 ~tiwesdaeg You could do it now if you wanted to create a link to a script in cgi-bin, but then it's not on the main page
2020-05-24 16:40:34 ~tiwesdaeg I'm wiping my desktop os right now and stuck on the phone
2020-05-24 16:56:18 @ben hmm would be nice if castor came back to the same scroll location on a page when you click the back button
2020-05-24 17:01:46 ~tiwesdaeg do any of the browsers do it?
2020-05-24 17:02:19 @ben not sure, i was just clicking through the user list on ~pink and was getting annoyed by having to scroll back down each time
2020-05-24 17:03:03 @ben how does cgi work?
2020-05-24 17:04:00 ~tiwesdaeg it's basically any scrypt that can output correct gemini format
2020-05-24 17:04:14 ~tiwesdaeg ben: git branch origin cgi-everywhere
2020-05-24 17:04:25 @ben yeah i did that
2020-05-24 17:04:36 ~tiwesdaeg do that in your gemserv git repository
2020-05-24 17:04:42 @ben i built and restarted
2020-05-24 17:04:47 ~tiwesdaeg ok
2020-05-24 17:05:10 ~tiwesdaeg on pink, vim/nano/whatever /var/gemini/index.gmi
2020-05-24 17:05:32 @ben i made it #!/bin/sh
2020-05-24 17:05:41 ~tiwesdaeg the most important parts are, chmod +x
2020-05-24 17:05:43 ~tiwesdaeg that's fine
2020-05-24 17:05:44 @ben and changed the content to printf "stuff\n"
2020-05-24 17:06:30 ~tiwesdaeg you need the first line to be 'printf "20 text/gemini\r\n"'
2020-05-24 17:06:53 @ben oh is the \r required?
2020-05-24 17:06:55 @ben windows thing?
2020-05-24 17:07:25 ~tiwesdaeg there are endless mailing list discussions about it
2020-05-24 17:07:43 ~tiwesdaeg the spec currently says the first line must end with \r\n
2020-05-24 17:07:54 @ben but not all lines?
2020-05-24 17:07:56 ~tiwesdaeg based on some old ISO thingy
2020-05-24 17:07:57 ~tiwesdaeg nope
2020-05-24 17:08:06 @ben i haven't had time to read all the mailing list stuff
2020-05-24 17:08:09 @ben it's just so much
2020-05-24 17:08:20 ~tiwesdaeg you can echo "blah" or printf "blah\n"
2020-05-24 17:08:29 ~tiwesdaeg I learned all this the ahrd way
2020-05-24 17:08:32 @ben ok
2020-05-24 17:08:56 ~tiwesdaeg if you look at my index.gmi, you can see the section that creates the user links
2020-05-24 17:09:12 ~tiwesdaeg you may want to tweak it, if you're looking for a public_gemini folder
2020-05-24 17:09:29 ~tiwesdaeg I automatically add one from the skel files with an index.gmi.sample
2020-05-24 17:09:45 ~tiwesdaeg then, if the user makes an index.gmi files, it gets listed
2020-05-24 17:11:19 @ben i'm not going to add a public_gemini folder to /etc/skel for now
2020-05-24 17:11:32 @ben i will just list the people who've created one
2020-05-24 17:15:02 @ben https://ttm.sh/Q2S.txt
2020-05-24 17:15:06 @ben this is what i came up with
2020-05-24 17:15:31 @ben is that the right link syntax?
2020-05-24 17:15:39 @ben gemini://tilde.team
2020-05-24 17:16:07 @ben seems to work
2020-05-24 17:20:19 @ben lick: looks like your public_gemini isn't working
2020-05-24 17:20:34 lick what
2020-05-24 17:20:36 ~tiwesdaeg I'm proably going to convert the main body to "cat >> EOF
2020-05-24 17:20:38 ~tiwesdaeg EOF"
2020-05-24 17:20:51 lick why isint my public gemini working lol ben
2020-05-24 17:21:08 @ben lick: idk
2020-05-24 17:21:14 @ben but it's not loading
2020-05-24 17:21:32 ~tiwesdaeg it makes is a lot easier to edit the main body, instead of having a bunch of echo or printf lines
2020-05-24 17:21:51 @ben yeah
2020-05-24 17:22:04 @ben hm would i be able to call figlet
2020-05-24 17:22:12 ~tiwesdaeg sure
2020-05-24 17:22:28 @ben nice
2020-05-24 17:22:40 @ben that's easier than having the output in there
2020-05-24 17:22:51 ~tiwesdaeg I usually do something like "/usr/bin/figlet whatever options"
2020-05-24 17:22:57 ~tiwesdaeg or wherever figlet is located
2020-05-24 17:23:08 @ben oh i didn't even put the full path
2020-05-24 17:23:10 @ben worked fine
2020-05-24 17:23:23 @ben figlet -f slant tilde.team
2020-05-24 17:23:40 ~tiwesdaeg you can use date as well, or any program that outputs text
2020-05-24 17:23:55 ~tiwesdaeg try some lolcat ;P
2020-05-24 17:24:22 lick ben: huh maybe its because i didint put anything in my public_gemini lol, once i stuck a index.gmi into it, it appears to work fine now
2020-05-24 17:24:34 ~tiwesdaeg that would make sense
2020-05-24 17:24:51 ~tiwesdaeg which is why my if statement is superior ;P
2020-05-24 17:24:51 @ben lick: nice
2020-05-24 17:25:47 lick why does it just say "# directory listing" instead of file not found or something when its empty?
2020-05-24 17:25:48 @ben ok i added an inf
2020-05-24 17:25:53 @ben ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
2020-05-24 17:25:55 @ben if
2020-05-24 17:25:55 lick inf?
2020-05-24 17:26:01 lick oh
2020-05-24 17:26:05 @ben see /var/gemini/index.gmi
2020-05-24 17:26:12 ~tiwesdaeg I like the utf-8 characters as icons
2020-05-24 17:26:24 @ben yeah it's cute
2020-05-24 17:26:51 ~tiwesdaeg the bleyble site was using them, so hopped on the train
2020-05-24 17:26:56 lick wait you can use a bash script as your gmi?
2020-05-24 17:28:01 @ben yeah
2020-05-24 17:32:35 lick cool
2020-05-24 17:34:16 ▬▬▶ makeworld has joined #gemini
2020-05-24 17:36:04 ~tiwesdaeg ben: this line ' printf "=> gemini://tilde.team/~%s ~%s\n" "$user" "$user"'
2020-05-24 17:36:18 ~tiwesdaeg should be ' printf "=> gemini://tilde.team/~%s ~%s/\n" "$user" "$user"'
2020-05-24 17:36:45 ~tiwesdaeg yours requires a redirect, your links should end with a / for a directory
2020-05-24 17:36:50 ~tiwesdaeg oops
2020-05-24 17:36:59 ~tiwesdaeg should be ' printf "=> gemini://tilde.team/~%s/ ~%s\n" "$user" "$user"'
2020-05-24 17:37:36 ~tiwesdaeg so you get gemini://tilde.team/~user/ instead of gemini://tilde.team/~user
2020-05-24 17:37:45 ▬▬▶ makeworld0 has joined #gemini
2020-05-24 17:38:56 makeworld0 `epoch styan: What are your questions?
2020-05-24 17:38:59 ~tiwesdaeg makeworld0, that's different from makeworld_
2020-05-24 17:39:03 makeworld0 Yeah...
2020-05-24 17:39:06 makeworld0 Idk what's going on
2020-05-24 17:39:15 ~tiwesdaeg what client are you using?
2020-05-24 17:39:16 makeworld0 I'd appreciate if you could kick makeworld though
2020-05-24 17:39:20 makeworld0 I'm using thelounge
2020-05-24 17:39:32 makeworld0 It's running on my server, so I just access it through a web UI
2020-05-24 17:39:37 ~tiwesdaeg ahh
2020-05-24 17:39:54 makeworld0 Although when I just checked into the UI right now it said it was disconnected, I had to do /connect
2020-05-24 17:40:06 ~tiwesdaeg well, as long as makeworld is connected to the tilde chat server, you won't be able to use that nick
2020-05-24 17:40:24 makeworld0 Yes, that's why I'm asking if you could kick that name and I'll reassume it
2020-05-24 17:40:32 ~tiwesdaeg have you thought about using weechat, our lord and savior?
2020-05-24 17:40:58 ~tiwesdaeg I'm not an ircop, so I can't actually kill it
2020-05-24 17:41:10 ~tiwesdaeg kicking it just makes it leave this one channel
2020-05-24 17:41:14 makeworld0 Yeah that's fine
2020-05-24 17:41:24 makeworld0 I'm only in this channel lol, I don't use IRC much
2020-05-24 17:41:27 ~tiwesdaeg you're still stuck as makeworld0
2020-05-24 17:41:42 tiwesdaeg has kicked makeworld (kablooie)
2020-05-24 17:41:54 ~tiwesdaeg that's about the limits of my power
2020-05-24 17:42:10 makeworld0 Good enough I think, thanks
2020-05-24 17:42:32 makeworld0 Hmm I still can't change nicks
2020-05-24 17:42:50 ~tiwesdaeg I told you, it's still connected to the server
2020-05-24 17:42:54 ~tiwesdaeg just not in this channel
2020-05-24 17:43:02 ~tiwesdaeg nicks are global for the server
2020-05-24 17:43:07 makeworld0 Oh I see, sorry
2020-05-24 17:43:08 ~tiwesdaeg not special for each channel
2020-05-24 17:43:10 makeworld0 I'll try and restart
2020-05-24 17:43:55 makeworld0 has quit (Client exited)
2020-05-24 17:44:03 ▬▬▶ makeworld0 has joined #gemini
2020-05-24 17:44:12 lick are bombadillo bookmarks working for anyone?
2020-05-24 17:47:00 lick makeworld0: do you have telepathy running anywhere on your computer?
2020-05-24 17:47:27 makeworld0 No
2020-05-24 17:48:17 lick well someone with the same ip as you is using telepathy-im/voip framework on the same ip as you and they are logged in as makeworld
2020-05-24 17:48:34 lick oop
2020-05-24 17:48:40 makeworld0 Uh oh
2020-05-24 17:48:57 makeworld0 Impersonating me?
2020-05-24 17:50:37 makeworld0 ben: Could you kick them off the server? Idk what the protocol for this kinda thing is. I think my Internet disconnected last night or something, and now someone's taken my nick
2020-05-24 17:50:52 lick anyone else have access to the server you have thelounge on makeworld0?
2020-05-24 17:51:06 makeworld0 They shouldn't, no
2020-05-24 17:51:20 lick weird...
2020-05-24 17:52:17 lick makeworld0: are you registered with NickServ? if so you can "/msg NickServ RECOVER" to get your nick back
2020-05-24 17:52:31 makeworld0 They have the same IP as me though, so idk what's going on there
2020-05-24 17:52:58 ▬▬▶ makeworld has joined #gemini
2020-05-24 17:53:04 makeworld has quit (Client exited)
2020-05-24 17:53:10 ℹ makeworld0 is now known as makeworld
2020-05-24 17:53:33 makeworld Okay my bad, I opened Polari last night I think, and it messed every up
2020-05-24 17:53:42 lick polari?
2020-05-24 17:53:43 makeworld Sorry for the pings and confusion everyone, still figuring out IRC I guess
2020-05-24 17:54:16 lick does polari use telepathy im framework as its backend or something?
2020-05-24 17:54:20 makeworld https://wiki.gnome.org/Apps/Polari/
2020-05-24 17:54:23 makeworld I guess it must
2020-05-24 17:54:44 makeworld Yeah it does, I saw the dependencies
2020-05-24 18:00:14 @tomasino you are so chatty, peoples
2020-05-24 18:00:21 @tomasino i missed so much
2020-05-24 18:00:24 ⚡ tomasino goes back to bed
2020-05-24 18:02:52 makeworld styan `epoch: Yes, it's stateful somewhat. It stores the filename that's being commented on, for each IP address
2020-05-24 18:02:58 makeworld Temporarily
2020-05-24 18:35:47 makeworld Anyone know of any other servers that run Jetforce?
2020-05-24 18:37:27 makeworld Because the issue styan found with my server, the directory escape, is super serious
2020-05-24 18:37:35 makeworld But I couldn't replicate it on mozz.us
2020-05-24 18:45:47 makeworld Anyway, my server's going to be offline now, until I figure that out
2020-05-24 18:45:58 makeworld I'd appreciate in anyone could confirm or deny this issue
2020-05-24 18:48:19 ▬▬▶ info has joined #gemini
2020-05-24 18:48:45 makeworld I sent an email to Michael about this though
2020-05-24 19:09:44 info has quit (Connection closed)
2020-05-24 19:17:32 ~tiwesdaeg makeworld: which server is yours?
2020-05-24 19:32:05 @tomasino I run it on tilde.black
2020-05-24 20:03:04 login how does gopher work in tor browser?
2020-05-24 20:03:46 login only through a localhost tor2html proxy?
2020-05-24 20:04:11 login or a txt browser like lynx?
2020-05-24 20:07:24 @tomasino You can run most clients through torsocks
2020-05-24 20:07:30 @tomasino Lynx doesn't like it though
2020-05-24 20:07:35 @tomasino Try vf1
2020-05-24 20:17:22 cmccabe torsocks is really nice
2020-05-24 20:17:43 cmccabe i've used lynx through torsocks before. what problems have you seen, tomasino?
2020-05-24 20:18:20 @tomasino Don't recall the error. Something about local proxy
2020-05-24 20:19:00 @tomasino Whenever I try torsocks lynx gopher://toraddress... It fails
2020-05-24 20:19:27 @tomasino But substitute lynx with vf1 or bombadillo or something and it's fine
2020-05-24 20:20:16 wgreenhouse torsocks is kind of hackish (LD_PRELOAD badness) so anything not using normal libc stuff to resolve domains or make tcp connections can behave badly
2020-05-24 20:20:55 wgreenhouse lynx is old enough that I can imagine it rolling its own tcp stack in places :P
2020-05-24 20:43:51 makeworld tiwesdaeg: I'm at makeworld.gq but it's offline now bc of the bug
2020-05-24 20:44:14 makeworld Try accessing gemini://tilde.black/../../var/ or something
2020-05-24 20:50:36 @tomasino gemini://tilde.black/users/fox/vintagetv/superman-01.gmi
2020-05-24 20:50:37 @tomasino :D
2020-05-24 21:07:19 @tomasino bombadillos updates are quite nice
2020-05-24 21:07:32 @tomasino and also yay for alt text support
2020-05-24 21:09:23 @tomasino well, preemptive yay. i tried toggling the settings but it's not doing anything
2020-05-24 21:09:31 @tomasino i wonder which alt text style was implemented
2020-05-24 21:11:22 @tomasino looking at the code it "should" work...
2020-05-24 21:11:44 @tomasino ooooh
2020-05-24 21:11:49 @tomasino it overwrote my ini change
2020-05-24 21:11:50 @tomasino hrm
2020-05-24 21:12:12 @tomasino Yisss, it works!
2020-05-24 21:12:25 `epoch if your nick is registered with nickserv there might be a "ghost" command
2020-05-24 21:12:35 `epoch (oh, replying to backlog... derp.)
2020-05-24 21:17:26 styan tomasino makeworld: `gemini://tilde.black/../../etc/motd' works
2020-05-24 21:18:04 @tomasino oh wild
2020-05-24 21:18:10 @tomasino that seems pretty dangerous
2020-05-24 21:18:20 styan It can not read user directories, at least.
2020-05-24 21:18:30 @tomasino i have userdirs on black as 700
2020-05-24 21:18:34 styan Hooray for strict permissions.
2020-05-24 21:19:00 @tomasino but that could still read some sensitive stuffs
2020-05-24 21:19:21 @tomasino yep, /etc/passwd comes up just fine
2020-05-24 21:20:15 @tomasino hmm, i wonder if i can chroot it or something
2020-05-24 21:21:50 styan /etc/master.passwd is only readable by root, thankfully.
2020-05-24 21:22:25 lick lmao
2020-05-24 21:22:31 @tomasino and i do run this as a daemon user
2020-05-24 21:22:40 lick tomasino: you should chmod 777 /etc/shadow
2020-05-24 21:22:54 @tomasino buuuuut...
2020-05-24 21:22:58 @tomasino big problem
2020-05-24 21:23:06 @tomasino i can browse to the private key of the server
2020-05-24 21:23:13 lick uh oh
2020-05-24 21:23:15 styan That is not good.
2020-05-24 21:23:20 @tomasino cause the user running jetforce needs to be able to see it to run it
2020-05-24 21:23:21 lick gemini private key?
2020-05-24 21:23:24 @tomasino yep
2020-05-24 21:23:39 lick why not chown it to jetforce?
2020-05-24 21:23:58 @tomasino it is chowned to my jetforce user, "gemini"
2020-05-24 21:24:03 @tomasino but jetforce is running AS gemini
2020-05-24 21:24:10 @tomasino so... when you browse, you're running as gemini
2020-05-24 21:24:14 @tomasino and thus, you can see it
2020-05-24 21:24:34 styan I guess tilde.black's gemini server will be down for emergency chrooting.
2020-05-24 21:24:41 @ben makeworld: usually you can just nickserv recover
2020-05-24 21:24:55 @ben looks like you were able to recover it
2020-05-24 21:25:00 lick gwmini can browse random files tomasino?
2020-05-24 21:25:12 @tomasino jetforce allows arbitrary file path reading with ../
2020-05-24 21:25:15 lick ben: i dont think makeworld is nickserv registered
2020-05-24 21:25:18 @tomasino you can do directory traversal
2020-05-24 21:25:21 @ben oh
2020-05-24 21:25:22 lick oh noes
2020-05-24 21:25:32 @tomasino about to log an issue on the githubs
2020-05-24 21:25:40 @ben well usually you can kill your own clients locally
2020-05-24 21:25:45 @ben i was afk
2020-05-24 21:25:53 @ben but feel free to ping me or another oper in #helpdesk
2020-05-24 21:26:01 @ben going afk again, bbl
2020-05-24 21:28:19 @tomasino https://github.com/michael-lazar/jetforce/issues/24
2020-05-24 21:28:25 @tomasino feel free to add on any details i left out
2020-05-24 21:30:09 @tomasino anyone know if a similar problem exists in other gemini servers?
2020-05-24 21:53:23 `epoch I only know that the gemini server I wrote doesn't have directory traversal
2020-05-24 21:54:38 `epoch instead of trying to chroot it just bails if the normalized path is outside of /var/gemini
2020-05-24 21:55:52 `epoch would want to also do symlink dereferencing if you're allowing users to do their own files
2020-05-24 21:56:12 `epoch otherwise someone could just symlink to the gemini server's private key from their ~/public_gemini
2020-05-24 22:03:32 @tomasino yep
2020-05-24 22:17:22 `epoch IMPLICATIONS FOR SERVER AUTHORS:
2020-05-24 22:17:22 `epoch If your server is using a tab character to separate status codes from
2020-05-24 22:17:23 `epoch <META> content, you MUST switch to using a space.
2020-05-24 22:17:43 `epoch I was poking at a server the yesterday that was using tab
2020-05-24 22:20:33 `epoch also, looks like the clients that use basic ssl will need to figure out how to enabled SNI
2020-05-24 22:21:50 `epoch and how do I get the SNI host from a socat server? hrm...
2020-05-24 22:40:24 `epoch hrm... a gemini client from inside minetest?
2020-05-24 22:41:33 kayw that would be cool if done
2020-05-24 22:43:21 `epoch I have a world where me and someone else build a network using digi-things
2020-05-24 22:43:44 `epoch and eventually added a relay between that network and IRC using the NIC part
2020-05-24 22:44:13 `epoch I'm not sure how painful it would be to read gemini sites on the in-game LCD
2020-05-24 22:44:33 `epoch maybe use a command block to dump it into the chat box
2020-05-24 22:45:17 `epoch might require abusing a bug in the digiboard that allows formspec injection
2020-05-24 22:55:50 makeworld tomasino: Wish I had caught you before you filed that issue... I already emailed him personally because I figured it was an important security issue
2020-05-24 23:01:22 `epoch two disclosure methods clash in the wild
2020-05-24 23:13:08 @tomasino ahha
2020-05-24 23:13:17 @tomasino well, hopefully something he'll address quickly
2020-05-24 23:16:19 styan I wonder if simply returning an error when a path has a ".." in it would violate any RFCs?
2020-05-24 23:16:38 xq styan: yes, that violates the URI RFC
2020-05-24 23:17:07 xq you may not go "out below root", but "foo/../foo" is equivalent to "foo" and should be generated by a normalizer
2020-05-24 23:22:18 styan It would have been nice if it could be classed as a problem for the client, since they already have to deal with relative links; then servers would not have to deal with it.
2020-05-24 23:24:13 makeworld tomasino: Hopefully, yeah. But for now my server has to be offline, until I have enough energy to get Molly Brown runnin
2020-05-24 23:26:00 `epoch a/path/like/merp..derp/should/be/valid/though?
2020-05-24 23:27:42 styan `epoch: Something like `path !~ /\/\.\.([\/?#]|$)/' would be easy though.
2020-05-24 23:31:08 `epoch what language is that?
2020-05-24 23:32:06 `epoch ruby?
2020-05-24 23:32:27 mk270 perl?
2020-05-24 23:32:42 `epoch perl would use a $ for the variable path
2020-05-24 23:32:44 mk270 possibly also awk
2020-05-24 23:34:41 `epoch I figure !~ is like the perl =~ except in a while loop or something
2020-05-24 23:35:53 `epoch I don't know if there's a correct regex that fixes ../s in one pass while somehow not leaving other ../s behind
2020-05-24 23:36:29 `epoch a/./.././path with /../ removed is still a/../path
2020-05-24 23:37:25 `epoch I guess that line with !~ is just a checker and not a sanitizer
2020-05-24 23:37:39 `epoch which make sense now that I see there's not // at the end of the regex.
2020-05-24 23:37:40 `epoch derp me.
2020-05-24 23:38:23 `epoch !~ is just =~ but NOTd
2020-05-24 23:42:57 styan `epoch: awk
2020-05-24 23:44:19 styan "~ (matches) or !~ (does not match)"
2020-05-24 23:46:09 `epoch made a prompt loop to see what clients do with it.
2020-05-24 23:46:36 `epoch castor will leave the old prompt up and open up another one.
2020-05-24 23:46:52 `epoch gemini://thebackupbox.net/prompt
2020-05-24 23:47:10 `epoch just does printf '10 %s\r\n' "$QUERY_STRING"
2020-05-24 23:48:17 `epoch castor didn't open the main window until after I stopped pressing "OK"
2020-05-24 23:48:30 `epoch er "Send"*
2020-05-24 23:51:40 `epoch bookmarking the bookmarks page still crashes castor
2020-05-24 23:58:31 styan `epoch: That test helped me find some bugs, thank you.
2020-05-24 23:58:48 `epoch np :)
2020-05-24 23:58:49 styan geminawk(1) was counting input requests as redirects.
2020-05-25 00:01:54 `epoch where does geminawk live?
2020-05-25 00:02:37 styan https://tildegit.org/styan/geminawk/
2020-05-25 00:04:16 kayw i love seeing the cool things people do with awk
2020-05-25 00:04:20 `epoch is there someone keeping a big list of all the client and server software?
2020-05-25 00:04:28 kayw uhh, no clue
2020-05-25 00:04:42 styan gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/software/
2020-05-25 00:04:57 `epoch I've only done piddly stuff with awk
2020-05-25 00:05:12 `epoch gracias, sytan
2020-05-25 00:07:39 styan `epoch: No problem.
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2020-05-25 01:50:35 ~tiwesdaeg We really need an android client
2020-05-25 01:50:51 @ben i was just going to ask about that earlier
2020-05-25 02:33:51 lick ben, tiwesdaeg: apperently there is one lol https://framagit.org/waweic/gemini-client
2020-05-25 02:34:31 @ben lol nice
2020-05-25 03:13:36 makeworld tomasino: I'm going to bed now but Michael has made a new release that fixes the bug, but now all relative links not in the root directory fail, returning 51 Not Found
2020-05-25 03:13:39 makeworld Rip
2020-05-25 03:13:47 makeworld I let him know in the same issue
2020-05-25 03:29:48 makeworld Nvm, I think it's bombadillo
2020-05-25 04:04:18 styan gemini://makeworld.gq/gemlog/../cgi-bin/stats works.
2020-05-25 04:06:09 styan makeworld: I just rememberd that I used your comment system to leave a comment on your comment system yesterday.
2020-05-25 04:07:00 `epoch gemini://makeworld.gq/gemlog/../cgi-bin/stats /should/ work, right?
2020-05-25 04:07:29 `epoch "works" how? like, attempts to run "stats" as a CGI, or it shows the contents of it?
2020-05-25 04:07:56 styan Yes it should, makeworld thought that there was a bug in jetforce that made it not work.
2020-05-25 04:08:17 `epoch oh. I need to read more backlog.
2020-05-25 04:08:20 `epoch probably
2020-05-25 04:13:53 styan `epoch: A bug was fixed in jetforce, and makeworld thought that the fix broke additionaly things, but now thinks that it is bombadillo.
2020-05-25 04:14:19 `epoch kk.
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2020-05-25 11:21:17 lukee hello - I'm just checking out tilde chat for gemini for the first time
2020-05-25 11:22:33 @tomasino Black updated jetforce
2020-05-25 11:22:41 @tomasino Looking safer!
2020-05-25 11:23:51 cmccabe hey lukee. welcome
2020-05-25 11:26:37 lukee lots of new tools for me to learn recently. I've heard of IRC but never used it before
2020-05-25 11:28:03 lukee I've been getting my hands dirty with Gemini - I really like it
2020-05-25 11:28:17 lukee Hope to have a new Windows client released soon
2020-05-25 11:29:05 xq hey lukee :)
2020-05-25 11:29:16 lukee I think we need to have more accessible tools to make Gemini more accessible to the wider world
2020-05-25 11:29:30 lukee But I understand this is just early days.
2020-05-25 11:31:06 lukee Or maybe we'd rather keep the wider world out ;-)
2020-05-25 11:32:17 lukee I found some IRC logs at gemini://makeworld.gq/cgi-bin/gemini-irc and thought I would check it out
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2020-05-25 11:49:12 @tomasino accessibility is an important goal
2020-05-25 11:49:27 @tomasino i'm hoping our alt-text stuff will make its way officially into spec shortly
2020-05-25 11:49:43 @tomasino otherwise we have decent semantics. lang still needs to be figured out, but we're on a good path
2020-05-25 11:49:47 xq hehe, yeah
2020-05-25 11:50:14 xq but i think we should split the spec into one for gemini(protocol) and gemini(markup)
2020-05-25 11:50:14 @tomasino anyone know someone using a braille client?
2020-05-25 11:50:49 @tomasino xq: not a bad idea, or at least very clearly separate the sections in the spec
2020-05-25 11:50:54 xq yeah
2020-05-25 11:50:58 xq let's write an email:D
2020-05-25 11:51:11 xq i don't know if should say "sadly, i don't know anyone" or "luckily, i don't know anyone"
2020-05-25 11:51:32 xq i'd love to talk to people with such disabilities to make my programs better suitable for them
2020-05-25 11:51:39 xq but the less people i know, the less likely that disability is
2020-05-25 11:51:42 @tomasino i suspect the line-based operations of braille clients would work really well with gemini, but i'd love to get some first hand feedback
2020-05-25 11:55:04 xq yeah, true
2020-05-25 11:55:27 @tomasino heading out... car shopping time
2020-05-25 12:23:06 lukee I suppose at least for now braille readers can use the web proxies. There is the audio client which is already released
2020-05-25 12:23:39 wgreenhouse I should see if elpher enjoys emacspeak
2020-05-25 12:24:07 lukee Yes this sort of accessibility is important. The question is when the wider non-expert Internet users will start to use Gemini
2020-05-25 12:26:09 xq hm
2020-05-25 12:26:21 xq i badly want to write a *good* cross-platform gemini browser
2020-05-25 12:26:43 xq but there aren't really much good user interface libaries with a plain C interface available
2020-05-25 12:27:07 lukee There is always electron :-)
2020-05-25 12:27:23 xq well, that's something i don't consider "good" :D
2020-05-25 12:27:57 xq i have my own, self-written UI framework, but that's not meant for standard applications
2020-05-25 12:28:04 xq so it's ruled out as well
2020-05-25 12:28:49 lukee I think one could be built on Scintilla
2020-05-25 12:28:50 lukee https://www.scintilla.org/SciTE.html
2020-05-25 12:29:04 lukee It would do all the text rendering.
2020-05-25 12:29:29 lukee there are quite a few cross platform text editors that use it
2020-05-25 12:29:41 xq yeah, i love scintilla
2020-05-25 12:30:05 xq but text rendering isn't the part i would've problems with
2020-05-25 12:30:21 xq making a good user experience requires a lot of carefully placed widgets, notifications and everything
2020-05-25 12:30:39 lukee that is true
2020-05-25 12:31:12 lukee I'm writing mine in C# WPF and there is a wealth of widgets available, so you are a bit spoiled.
2020-05-25 12:31:17 lukee but not cross platform
2020-05-25 12:31:27 xq yeah, sadly
2020-05-25 12:31:28 xq i love WPF
2020-05-25 12:31:34 xq the base concept is *sooo gud*
2020-05-25 12:32:50 lukee I think Qt is probably OK - have seen some good applications in it like TortoiseHg
2020-05-25 12:33:10 lukee but underlying platform is c/c++ so that rules me out for now
2020-05-25 12:33:35 xq well
2020-05-25 12:33:38 xq Qt is C
2020-05-25 12:33:40 xq *C++
2020-05-25 12:33:59 xq i'd like to use C though (as i can bind C libraries pretty easily to Zig, my main language)
2020-05-25 12:34:10 xq but it looks like all major UI frameworks use C++
2020-05-25 12:45:23 jan6 is there any server that refuses tls 1.2 and requires 1.3? probably not, but just asking...
2020-05-25 12:54:53 wgreenhouse lukee: could do python and pyqt :)
2020-05-25 13:04:41 ~tiwesdaeg time to read all the messages I missed
2020-05-25 13:10:51 lukee I never have much success with Python. It always seems very heavyweight to install
2020-05-25 13:11:07 xq it's also quite imperformant, sadly :(
2020-05-25 13:11:17 lukee I've just started dabbling with Go so I can poke around with Gemget and Molly Brown
2020-05-25 13:11:54 lukee I have a patch for Molly Brown so it sends the CGI parameters to CGI scripts
2020-05-25 13:12:25 lukee I had to tweak Gemget to remove a reference to a text progress bar which meant it didnt run on my server
2020-05-25 13:12:36 lukee which is an old raspberrypi B
2020-05-25 13:13:09 ~tiwesdaeg what did the pi not like about it?
2020-05-25 13:13:41 ~tiwesdaeg are you running raspbian?
2020-05-25 13:13:43 lukee it needs a later version of Go that has millsecond support
2020-05-25 13:13:50 ~tiwesdaeg ahh
2020-05-25 13:13:52 wgreenhouse online with elpher in my emacs. :C
2020-05-25 13:14:38 ~tiwesdaeg from the user end, compiling go software can be a pain
2020-05-25 13:14:39 lukee once I commented that out it runs fine. It just seems to be a UI thing to show progress as it downloads
2020-05-25 13:14:41 lukee the content
2020-05-25 13:15:59 lukee yes running the latest raspbian. Its not very fast, but works Ok for my testing
2020-05-25 13:16:15 ~tiwesdaeg well, the pi isn't very fast ;P
2020-05-25 13:17:52 ~tiwesdaeg I've got an old pi b running my gopher weather station
2020-05-25 13:18:17 ~tiwesdaeg I've thought about converting it to gemini and do away with all the gopher cruft
2020-05-25 13:18:55 lukee sounds interesting. I think a lot of simple web apps could serve GMI.
2020-05-25 13:19:18 lukee maybe we can invent a JSON-GMI clone to annoy everyone ;-)
2020-05-25 13:19:38 ~tiwesdaeg gopher://perilo.us or https://wx.perilo.us
2020-05-25 13:20:04 ~tiwesdaeg it's a mashup of shell script and python
2020-05-25 13:20:33 ~tiwesdaeg gnuplot for graphs
2020-05-25 13:21:16 ~tiwesdaeg I can't really program in anything else ;P
2020-05-25 13:27:20 wgreenhouse it seems elpher is quite pleasant as a gemini client. https://ttm.sh/Quq.png
2020-05-25 13:28:01 ~tiwesdaeg irc in emacs?
2020-05-25 13:28:18 wgreenhouse emacs actually ships with two different irc clients by default
2020-05-25 13:28:20 wgreenhouse :P
2020-05-25 13:28:25 ~tiwesdaeg haha
2020-05-25 13:28:26 wgreenhouse this is erc
2020-05-25 13:28:36 ~tiwesdaeg I have only ever dabbled in emacs
2020-05-25 13:28:46 ~tiwesdaeg I did get elpher working though, to try it out
2020-05-25 13:28:55 wgreenhouse the other is rcirc (the name being a pun on the client was shorter than the author's ~/.ercrc)
2020-05-25 13:29:02 ~tiwesdaeg I learned vi many moons ago
2020-05-25 13:29:32 wgreenhouse two irc clients and ~3 mailclients (approximately 3 because one is a frontend to mh)
2020-05-25 13:29:55 ~tiwesdaeg does it have its own shell?
2020-05-25 13:30:22 wgreenhouse eshell, but it's not really a shell in the unix sense, just an elisp repl with some syntactic sugar so you can use it like a shell
2020-05-25 13:30:30 wgreenhouse also a terminal emulator (ansi-term)
2020-05-25 13:30:52 ~tiwesdaeg I know I've heard the joke many times that emacs is an os
2020-05-25 13:30:57 wgreenhouse I like eshell; it is a wacky place where you can redirect shell output to editor buffers, and stuff like that
2020-05-25 13:31:03 ~tiwesdaeg has anyone ever tried to live solely in emacs?
2020-05-25 13:31:38 wgreenhouse I mean, I basically do that. it is even my X window manager on systems where I have one of those. the only times I have to leave are when I need a full-js browser
2020-05-25 13:32:20 wgreenhouse the slippery slope is that the efficiency and ux gains to doing things in emacs are increased by doing other things in emacs
2020-05-25 13:33:00 ~tiwesdaeg I've given up on efficiency in life
2020-05-25 13:33:11 lukee ha ha
2020-05-25 13:33:27 wgreenhouse well, I don't know if I'm efficieny, actually, but context-switching is painful
2020-05-25 13:33:35 wgreenhouse *efficient
2020-05-25 13:33:48 ~tiwesdaeg besides, I have so many distractions outside the computer, that there is no way I could every do anything efficiently
2020-05-25 13:33:50 lukee Instead you could live your whole life inside a web browser
2020-05-25 13:33:59 xq lukee: true.
2020-05-25 13:34:11 xq there's a lot of web tooling out there that is quite practical
2020-05-25 13:34:19 ~tiwesdaeg isn't the modern web browser kind of like emacs?
2020-05-25 13:34:22 xq yeah
2020-05-25 13:34:28 ~tiwesdaeg a one stop shop for your software needs
2020-05-25 13:34:29 xq it's an OS embedded into an application
2020-05-25 13:34:33 ~tiwesdaeg works for chrome os
2020-05-25 13:34:44 lukee only thing is every website has its own UI
2020-05-25 13:34:50 xq yeah
2020-05-25 13:34:54 lukee links are uninversal though
2020-05-25 13:34:55 wgreenhouse it has some things in common for sure. browser extensions are a lot like elisp libraries. but yeah, the UI/keybinding situation on the web is a pain
2020-05-25 13:34:57 rak tiwesdaeg: Cute weather plots
2020-05-25 13:35:09 ~tiwesdaeg rak: it was such a fun build
2020-05-25 13:35:16 wgreenhouse and browsers increasingly don't make it easy to override keybindings everywhere
2020-05-25 13:35:29 wgreenhouse there's vimium and things like that fighting against the current
2020-05-25 13:36:29 lukee I guess each website wants to promote its own UI and brand to be distinctive
2020-05-25 13:37:14 lukee so they dont have much incentive to adopt a common set of UI conventions beyond the basics
2020-05-25 13:37:34 lukee Click here to see my innovative website (requires 10mb download)
2020-05-25 13:37:36 rak God, I'd hate to live entirely in a web browser. They have horrible keybinding support unless you use vimium, they're very resource intensive, etc.
2020-05-25 13:39:14 lukee I have to admit though that the web was the first bit of technology that really attracted me
2020-05-25 13:39:30 lukee being able to make your own stuff and share it online
2020-05-25 13:39:49 lukee It is this huge edifice now.
2020-05-25 13:40:01 lukee I guess that's why Gemini is interesting
2020-05-25 13:41:13 wgreenhouse lukee: that, and being fast, and readable by default
2020-05-25 13:41:27 wgreenhouse readability addons to decrufitify websites are far more necessary than they should be
2020-05-25 13:48:35 lukee got to go now do some other stuff. cheers!
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2020-05-25 13:49:47 ~tiwesdaeg wgreenhouse: now I have to connect to irc via emacs today, just because
2020-05-25 13:50:25 wgreenhouse tiwesdaeg: yay :) it's nice.
2020-05-25 13:51:00 ~tiwesdaeg I use a weechat session with a relay so I can access it from whatever device and it's always connected
2020-05-25 13:51:07 ~tiwesdaeg but you know, for science
2020-05-25 13:56:46 wgreenhouse tiwesdaeg: yeah, none of the extant emacs clients afaik have that capacity to also act as a bouncer. it would bee a step down in that sense. traditionally I pair erc with znc, more recently with irccloud.
2020-05-25 13:57:47 wgreenhouse as I settle in to tilde.club, thinking about just leaving an emacs running there for irc purposes and doing ssh + emacsclient as needed
2020-05-25 13:57:57 wgreenhouse (oh yeah, it's a terminal multiplexer too, sort of)
2020-05-25 13:59:22 ~tiwesdaeg I often use ssh + weechat, like right now
2020-05-25 13:59:31 ~tiwesdaeg it's nice to have it on my phone though
2020-05-25 14:00:10 wgreenhouse yeah mobile stuff was how I ended up falling for irccloud and being a sinner in the eyes of gnu
2020-05-25 14:00:18 wgreenhouse good mobile client, plus for the past year also offers a bouncer
2020-05-25 14:02:43 ~tiwesdaeg I'm definitely no gnu purist
2020-05-25 14:02:53 ⚡ tiwesdaeg hugs his bsd friends
2020-05-25 14:04:12 wgreenhouse I'm also running this here emacs on a chromebook in the termux environment. so my sins are manifold. :D
2020-05-25 14:04:20 ~tiwesdaeg irccloud is a web based bouncer?
2020-05-25 14:04:35 ~tiwesdaeg I secretly like some of the simplicity of chromebooks
2020-05-25 14:04:57 wgreenhouse tiwesdaeg: yeah, used to be just a web-based client, but they added bouncer connectivity for non-irccloud clients about a year ago
2020-05-25 14:04:58 ~tiwesdaeg I don't think I could use one as a main workstation
2020-05-25 14:05:05 xq i don't think "chromebook" is a bad concept
2020-05-25 14:05:13 xq it suits most casual uses pretty well
2020-05-25 14:05:32 ~tiwesdaeg my kid won a chromebook in a library contest
2020-05-25 14:05:35 xq never used chrome os, but sounds like it solves the "computers are complicated things"-problem for most people
2020-05-25 14:05:41 ~tiwesdaeg first thing she asked me was if I could install linux on it
2020-05-25 14:05:47 xq similar to android or even more iOS
2020-05-25 14:05:53 xq tiwesdaeg: BE PROUD!
2020-05-25 14:06:10 ~tiwesdaeg I think google's future plan is to just sort of merge the two
2020-05-25 14:06:35 ~tiwesdaeg chrome os sucks for art based needs
2020-05-25 14:06:42 ~tiwesdaeg drawing tablet support
2020-05-25 14:06:49 wgreenhouse xq: the security design of chromeos is thoughtful, too, in many ways moreso than android. it's designed to meet the case of "you can let someone else borrow it and not worry about your own user's stuff"
2020-05-25 14:07:01 ~tiwesdaeg support for stuff like kritta, inkscape, gimp
2020-05-25 14:07:02 xq wgreenhouse: wow, that sounds nice
2020-05-25 14:07:30 ~tiwesdaeg it's a pain to manage for kids though
2020-05-25 14:07:52 ~tiwesdaeg my youngest uses one and can't be trusted to not access any device he finds
2020-05-25 14:08:17 ~tiwesdaeg we had to setup his google account to be handled by parental controls
2020-05-25 14:08:31 wgreenhouse right, and chrome os grants "guest" access by default. :) which doesn't persist after reboot, but could be fucky if a kid wants to do stuff unnoticed. :D
2020-05-25 14:08:34 ~tiwesdaeg but now his browser can't install plugins which he needs for school
2020-05-25 14:08:58 ~tiwesdaeg I had to lock it down and only allow a specific set of users
2020-05-25 14:09:04 ~tiwesdaeg so he couldn't just make a new google account
2020-05-25 14:09:10 wgreenhouse yup.
2020-05-25 14:10:32 ~tiwesdaeg the parental app is pretty awkward too
2020-05-25 14:10:50 wgreenhouse the main pain point compared with desktop linux (slackware, in my case) for using it as a main workstation is that it's really the antithesis of a system that's compliant with running always-on stuff in background. if you're not interacting with it, it wants to be locked and asleep.
2020-05-25 14:11:06 wgreenhouse and as part of the aforementioned security model, other users' background stuff doesn't get to run while you're logged in
2020-05-25 14:11:21 ~tiwesdaeg I haven't used slackware since the late 90's
2020-05-25 14:11:33 ~tiwesdaeg it's nice to see it is still chugging along
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2020-05-25 14:12:57 lick tiwesdaeg: good thing your kid has not found out that they can just go into developer mode and ignore all the restrictions lol
2020-05-25 14:13:19 ~tiwesdaeg well, I might notice the beeping sound
2020-05-25 14:13:24 ~tiwesdaeg does it still do that on boot?
2020-05-25 14:14:02 lick no
2020-05-25 14:14:18 ~tiwesdaeg I haven't played with in a while
2020-05-25 14:15:10 ~tiwesdaeg I've been using cwm for the past month and am currently using xfce
2020-05-25 14:15:25 ~tiwesdaeg it's so hard to move around and find windows now
2020-05-25 14:15:51 lick lol
2020-05-25 14:16:01 ⚡ lick btw uses arch on his chromebook
2020-05-25 14:18:27 xq lick: "how do you know someone uses arch linux? They tell you!" *grins*
2020-05-25 14:18:39 ~tiwesdaeg I was having freezing issues on my desktop with debian
2020-05-25 14:18:47 ~tiwesdaeg trying manjaro to see if that goes away
2020-05-25 14:19:03 ~tiwesdaeg and yea, I've installed plain arch a few times before
2020-05-25 14:20:08 xq i started recomminging manjaro to people, although i don't use it myself
2020-05-25 14:20:11 ~tiwesdaeg I like how this pamac-manager thing installs from the aur
2020-05-25 14:20:16 lick tiwesdaeg: lol i also have it freezing
2020-05-25 14:20:31 ~tiwesdaeg it was driving me nuts
2020-05-25 14:20:37 xq on the freezing: is it a sstem freeze or only a graphics freezing?
2020-05-25 14:20:58 xq i had problems with current kernel, integrated graphics and display port
2020-05-25 14:21:02 ~tiwesdaeg well, when it happened, I was unable to get to console
2020-05-25 14:21:08 xq the graphics froze, but system stayed responsive
2020-05-25 14:21:13 xq sshing worked though ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
2020-05-25 14:21:18 ~tiwesdaeg hmmm
2020-05-25 14:21:23 ~tiwesdaeg who knows now
2020-05-25 14:21:32 ~tiwesdaeg I've got an amd card in this desktop
2020-05-25 14:21:53 ~tiwesdaeg it never used to freeze
2020-05-25 14:22:02 ~tiwesdaeg maybe it's getting old
2020-05-25 14:22:50 xq ah this may be a cause
2020-05-25 14:22:56 xq my old amd card just died on my gradually
2020-05-25 14:23:01 xq having more and more visual noise
2020-05-25 14:23:07 xq and then one day. black.
2020-05-25 14:23:13 ⚡ xq misses his graphics card
2020-05-25 14:26:03 ~tiwesdaeg this is an old radeon 78xx something or other I got for mining litecoin back in the day
2020-05-25 14:26:18 ~tiwesdaeg still plays a lot of games just fine, so I never upgraded
2020-05-25 14:26:43 xq yeah, keep it that way as long as it works :)
2020-05-25 14:27:21 ~tiwesdaeg anyone try the zain client?
2020-05-25 14:27:41 ~tiwesdaeg I'm trying to find out which dependancy it is looking for
2020-05-25 14:28:09 ~tiwesdaeg package require tls
2020-05-25 14:28:26 ~tiwesdaeg I tried pip install tls, but there doesn't seem to be a package available
2020-05-25 14:29:38 ~tiwesdaeg there's a tlstk (0.0) and tls (0.0) when I run a search
2020-05-25 14:59:40 @tomasino hrm, jetforce still seems to be leaking for tilde black
2020-05-25 15:00:14 @tomasino there we go
2020-05-25 15:00:17 @tomasino had to restart the service
2020-05-25 15:12:46 lick o
2020-05-25 16:10:41 jan6 no
2020-05-25 16:12:59 lick jan6: no what?
2020-05-25 16:13:12 jan6 18:12 <lick> o
2020-05-25 16:13:12 jan6 19:10 <jan6> no
2020-05-25 16:13:29 jan6 that's what
2020-05-25 16:13:32 lick lmao
2020-05-25 16:21:30 makeworld styan: What did you do to leave comments on CGI scripts? I'm gonna release my comment system today but I want to fix that if possible
2020-05-25 17:33:38 makeworld I just wrote some code that should fix and prevent all kinds of directory traversal for commenting and liking. Feel free to try to break it and let me know
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2020-05-25 17:58:55 ~tiwesdaeg tomasino: did you see the mailing list announcement for the jetforce vulnerability?
2020-05-25 17:59:39 kayw the what?
2020-05-25 17:59:49 kayw lemme see this
2020-05-25 17:59:52 @tomasino i logged the issue, tiwesdaeg ! black is all good
2020-05-25 18:00:00 ~tiwesdaeg excellent!
2020-05-25 18:00:06 ~tiwesdaeg did you also find a car?
2020-05-25 18:00:14 @tomasino i did!
2020-05-25 18:00:17 @tomasino 2017 tivoli
2020-05-25 18:00:20 @tomasino it's nice
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2020-05-25 18:00:39 ~tiwesdaeg I realized today that pink's clock, set to GMT, should be the same time as your local timezone
2020-05-25 18:01:59 ~tiwesdaeg SsangYong, that's a fun one to say
2020-05-25 18:14:53 @tomasino hah, yeah
2020-05-25 18:14:58 @tomasino i'd never heard of them before
2020-05-25 18:15:11 @tomasino did some research and boy did they amke some ugly cars
2020-05-25 18:15:16 @tomasino but the quality seems just fine
2020-05-25 18:15:25 @tomasino it shares a gearbox with the mid-level BMWs
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2020-05-25 18:29:53 lick if jetforce has vulnerabilities, why not switch to gemserv?
2020-05-25 18:38:19 ~tiwesdaeg they've been fixed already
2020-05-25 18:38:27 ~tiwesdaeg you just need to update it
2020-05-25 18:38:33 lick ah
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2020-05-25 19:14:03 makeworld Anyone got suggestions for a name for my comment and like system? I'm calling it gemlikes right now, but idk if that's good
2020-05-25 19:21:25 wgreenhouse boosters?
2020-05-25 19:23:43 makeworld Why boosters?
2020-05-25 19:31:58 wgreenhouse makeworld: as in rocket boosters
2020-05-25 19:32:04 wgreenhouse bad space pun
2020-05-25 19:32:14 wgreenhouse also a like boosts the content
2020-05-25 19:32:29 makeworld Ah ok lol
2020-05-25 20:01:31 makeworld I might stick with gemlikes for now, I've written it a lot lol
2020-05-25 20:04:21 login s/p/P
2020-05-25 20:06:13 makeworld ?
2020-05-25 20:07:14 login call it muslin
2020-05-25 20:07:32 login what you use to polish gems
2020-05-25 20:16:03 @tomasino superpoops
2020-05-25 20:16:43 @tomasino you know, like this was worthy of reading in the bathroom on my phone and has turned this experience into...
2020-05-25 20:28:04 makeworld Hahaha
2020-05-25 20:29:25 ⚡ tomasino is excellent at naming things
2020-05-25 21:03:48 styan makeworld: gemini://makeworld.gq/cgi-bin/gemlikes/add-comment?../cgi-bin/gemlikes/add-comment
2020-05-25 21:04:16 makeworld Does it still work?
2020-05-25 21:04:24 makeworld Thanks btw
2020-05-25 21:05:11 makeworld Yep, it seems to fail now
2020-05-25 21:05:19 ⚡ makeworld afk for a while
2020-05-25 21:19:57 styan makeworld: It is kind of neat to think that if I was not able to do that jetforce would probably still have that bug.
2020-05-25 21:21:36 styan tiwesdaeg: I tried zain for a little bit, it needed devel/tcltls (FreeBSD port) on my system.
2020-05-25 21:21:58 ~tiwesdaeg hmm, I'll see what I can dig up
2020-05-25 21:22:03 styan This is its website: http://core.tcl.tk/tcltls
2020-05-25 21:22:25 ~tiwesdaeg I got my netbsd drive running again so I'm back in bsd land
2020-05-25 21:23:05 styan xq: Tk is a good cross-platform GUI toolkit with C bindings. :-)
2020-05-25 21:23:52 xq styan: i sadly didn't find a quick example
2020-05-25 21:23:57 xq only some macro magic which uses Tcl
2020-05-25 21:25:55 styan Here is the C API, if you did not already find it: http://www.tcl-lang.org/man/tcl8.6/TkLib/contents.htm
2020-05-25 21:28:10 styan I have not actually used it from C though.
2020-05-25 21:37:43 styan makeworld: I could not break gemlikes again.
2020-05-25 21:44:36 xq hack of the day: serving gemini files via the web
2020-05-25 21:45:44 xq thanks styan!
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2020-05-25 21:53:03 styan xq: I hope it works for you. I do not know if you can completely avoid Tcl, though.
2020-05-25 21:53:16 xq yeah, i'll take a look :)
2020-05-25 21:53:28 xq but i think i look at gtk+ first
2020-05-25 22:00:46 ⚡ lick is comping gemserv its taking a while lol
2020-05-25 22:01:57 styan xq: Well, good lick with whichever you end up using.
2020-05-25 22:02:10 xq thanks :)
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2020-05-25 22:03:24 makeworld styan: It is pretty cool to think about that. Nice job discovering it! I shudder to think about how long my server and others were unguarded...
2020-05-25 22:03:46 makeworld Also glad to hear you couldn't break it anymore, seems like the path detection I added worked
2020-05-25 22:05:46 styan makeworld: There is one idea that I could not test fully, that is navigating back froma sub-directory.
2020-05-25 22:06:04 makeworld Could you give an example of what you mean?
2020-05-25 22:06:22 styan Like: gemini://makeworld.gq/cgi-bin/gemlikes/add-comment?directory/../../cgi-bin/gemlikes/add-comment
2020-05-25 22:06:52 makeworld I feel quite sure that will fail, esp. if the other ones did too. But why couldn't you test it fully?
2020-05-25 22:06:56 styan It is probably fine, but I just thought that I would mention it.
2020-05-25 22:07:08 makeworld Yeah, thanks
2020-05-25 22:07:29 styan I could not test it fully because there are no sub-directories in `gemlog'
2020-05-25 22:07:55 styan Without seeing the code, I do not know if it requires the directories to exist.
2020-05-25 22:08:25 makeworld Gtg now, but the code will be up shortly
2020-05-25 22:08:34 makeworld There's a sub dir now, it's gemlog/test/
2020-05-25 22:08:36 styan It does fail with non-existing directories though.
2020-05-25 22:08:40 makeworld Good to hear
2020-05-25 22:09:52 styan I got `40 File not known', so now I am out of ideas. :-)
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2020-05-25 22:46:06 makeworld Perfect lol
2020-05-25 22:46:07 makeworld Thanks
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2020-05-25 23:22:50 ℹ Mode #gemini [+oqo ben tiwesdaeg tiwesdaeg] by team.tilde.chat
2020-05-25 23:27:06 makeworld https://github.com/makeworld-the-better-one/gemlikes
2020-05-25 23:27:11 makeworld Gemlikes is live :)
2020-05-25 23:27:17 makeworld Writing the mailing list post rn
2020-05-25 23:29:12 lick o
2020-05-25 23:39:10 makeworld Alright, sent
2020-05-25 23:48:37 makeworld Lmk if any of you guys end up using it on your gemlogs
2020-05-25 23:58:02 styan Oh, full Go programs. For some reason I assumed that they were shell scripts.
2020-05-26 00:02:37 makeworld Yeah that would still work, but I wanted to sharpen my Go skills - and also shell scripts would be really hard to get right I think
2020-05-26 00:03:03 makeworld Like if I weren't using Go I'd use Python or something, but not Bash
2020-05-26 00:15:59 lick are there any gemini clients at the moment that complain if the server is using a self-signed cert?
2020-05-26 00:16:45 ⚡ lick installed jetforce on his pi come check it out gemini://data.bellz.org/
2020-05-26 00:18:45 kayw lick: your cert is not valid for me
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2020-05-26 00:18:53 kayw `ERROR: ('Certificate not valid until: 2020-05-25 23:45:06!',)`
2020-05-26 00:20:09 kayw oddly enough, thats only being reported in av98
2020-05-26 00:22:25 lick lol wut
2020-05-26 00:22:50 lick maybe its confused from my timezone
2020-05-26 00:23:05 lick bombadillo on ~team does not complain for me...
2020-05-26 00:29:05 @tomasino i'd hope not, since self signed seems to be the preferred way
2020-05-26 00:29:13 styan makeworld: You might be interested and/or horrified to know that there are web servers written in plan9's shell. :-)
2020-05-26 00:32:54 lick lol omg why do those exist styan
2020-05-26 00:35:37 styan lick: Because listen(8) exists, probably. http://man.9front.org/8/listen
2020-05-26 00:36:57 lick lol
2020-05-26 00:37:30 styan Also, because rc(1) and awk(1) are easier to use for string processing than C.
2020-05-26 00:38:09 makeworld styan: I'd prefer not to know haha
2020-05-26 00:45:06 @tomasino yay shell scripts!
2020-05-26 00:45:49 styan It is not nearly as bad as it sounds. rc(1) is better than sh(1), an plan9's security model makes dropping capabilities relatively trivial.
2020-05-26 00:46:03 styan s/ an / and /
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2020-05-26 02:06:45 gbmor lick: i've been doing some local stuff on my own machine and bombadillo complains loudly about my self-signed cert, so i've been using openssl s_client lol
2020-05-26 02:07:47 gbmor Bombadillo 2.3.0 - build 2020-05-25T00:42-0400
2020-05-26 02:15:47 lick huh im using the same version of bombadillo and it doesint seem to care about my self signed cert lol
2020-05-26 02:15:59 @ben i don't really grok the cert stuff in gemini
2020-05-26 02:16:37 lick grok?
2020-05-26 02:17:12 @ben it's slang for understand
2020-05-26 02:18:38 lick ah
2020-05-26 02:28:33 @tomasino whew
2020-05-26 02:28:37 @tomasino and done
2020-05-26 02:29:10 @tomasino gemini://tilde.black/users/fox/vintagetv/superman-02.gmi
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2020-05-26 02:29:54 @tomasino superman essay #2
2020-05-26 02:30:05 @tomasino now i'm off to bed
2020-05-26 02:30:09 @tomasino night all
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2020-05-26 02:32:56 vclv nice post
2020-05-26 02:42:43 gbmor ah i just double checked lick - it's because i quickly generated a self-signed cert to use and didn't fill in any of the pertinent fields, so it's complaining about the hostname not matching. woops.
2020-05-26 02:44:07 gbmor yep, filling out CN=localhost, it works fine
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2020-05-26 14:27:08 jan6 I know this is most probably useless for many, but if anyone wants a barebones snippet to get raw geminis, then here's one with openssl s_client, you can prefill the variable i with the full url, or remove it from the start to get prompted for it, should work with any posix-compatible shell
2020-05-26 14:27:11 jan6 i="gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/";if [ -z "$i" ];then printf "gemini:// URL: ";read -r i;fi;if [ -n "$i" ];then echo "$i"|cut -d / -f 3-|{ read a;domain="$(echo "$a"|cut -d / -f 1)";url="$(echo "$a"|cut -d / -f 2-)";printf "%s\r\n" "gemini://$domain/$url"|openssl s_client -connect "$domain":1965 -quiet -verify_quiet;};else echo "no gemini:// url detected!";fi;i=""
2020-05-26 14:27:40 cmccabe nice jan6
2020-05-26 14:28:01 jan6 it's cool for when you "just want the content" imho
2020-05-26 14:28:25 jan6 like if I just want that superman essay, without caring about getting a client and whatnot ;P
2020-05-26 14:30:30 ⚡ jan6 is thinking of some sort of modular client, but not sure what language t use...
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2020-05-26 14:34:54 @tomasino you have that in a repo somewhere or a pastebin?
2020-05-26 14:39:50 jan6 nah
2020-05-26 14:39:54 jan6 and have what?
2020-05-26 14:40:11 jan6 all I have is the old thingy I made to download konpeito
2020-05-26 14:41:44 @tomasino just hard to read in IRC. was gonna poke through it pretty-like
2020-05-26 14:42:08 jan6 https://tildegit.org/jan6/geminish still uses socat
2020-05-26 14:42:18 jan6 not sure which is better for comatibility, tbh
2020-05-26 14:47:33 lick socat++
2020-05-26 14:54:11 jan6 k, should be up in a few minutes
2020-05-26 14:57:03 jan6 tomasino: https://tildegit.org/jan6/geminish/src/branch/master/gemini_get_openssl.sh
2020-05-26 14:58:14 @tomasino huzzah
2020-05-26 14:58:28 @tomasino kiitos
2020-05-26 14:58:37 lick kitties
2020-05-26 14:58:53 jan6 and yes, you can do
2020-05-26 14:58:54 jan6 i="gemini://tilde.black/users/fox/vintagetv/superman-02.gmi" ./gemini_get_openssl.sh
2020-05-26 14:59:14 jan6 or ./gemini_get_openssl.sh "gemini://tilde.black/users/fox/vintagetv/superman-02.gmi"
2020-05-26 14:59:28 jan6 or ./gemini_get_openssl.sh and then at prompt write url
2020-05-26 14:59:47 jan6 or echo "gemini://tilde.black/users/fox/vintagetv/superman-02.gmi"|./gemini_get_openssl.sh
2020-05-26 14:59:57 jan6 it works in many ways, which is great
2020-05-26 15:00:43 jan6 and as usual, you can tail -n +2 to get files properly
2020-05-26 15:13:09 makeworld https://github.com/michael-lazar/jetforce/commit/1066d39125a8bff334c63fe3abc50fc3f45fb837
2020-05-26 15:13:17 makeworld He locked the thread without answering my question :/
2020-05-26 15:13:29 makeworld So I made a new issue about it: https://github.com/michael-lazar/jetforce/issues/25
2020-05-26 15:15:46 makeworld Also speaking of licensing, I was wondering about switching md2gemini from MIT to GPLv3, does anyone have opinions? Idk if there's much point but I think originally I though the project would be so simple that MIT would be fine, but it ended up being more work then I thought
2020-05-26 15:19:32 kayw Why do people care about what licences are used on projects
2020-05-26 15:19:40 kayw Thats just something i've never understood
2020-05-26 15:19:44 jan6 that is a weird stance on jetforce for sure
2020-05-26 15:20:06 jan6 making it run on less platforms is desireable for SOME reason...wow...
2020-05-26 15:20:40 jan6 kayw: would you like if someone say, sold your software, without mentioning it learly you made it?
2020-05-26 15:21:47 kayw yeah no
2020-05-26 15:23:52 makeworld Yeah that's why I want to switch to GPL, because I put actual work into md2gemini and I don't like the idea that someone could just make their own proprietary version
2020-05-26 15:25:37 wgreenhouse jan6: so basically they did something morally equivalent to licensing it as CC BY-NC
2020-05-26 15:25:40 wgreenhouse weird
2020-05-26 15:25:44 kayw ok maybe i should change some of my projects from WTFPL to MIT or something else
2020-05-26 15:26:42 kayw my dots are under WTFPL, but i should probably change others
2020-05-26 15:26:55 jan6 I'd like if there were more such permissive licenses that allowed "do whatever ou want as long as I'm credited, you don't blame me on anything, and you don't make money off of it"
2020-05-26 15:27:06 jan6 *you
2020-05-26 15:27:43 kayw yeah something like WTFPL but with what you said
2020-05-26 15:27:49 makeworld The last one is the harder part, the money thing
2020-05-26 15:28:09 makeworld CC-BY-NC basically covers that I think, but you shouldn't use it for code
2020-05-26 15:32:30 makeworld I mean making something open source helps cover the money thing a bit but that's not the goal
2020-05-26 15:33:47 makeworld Anyway does anyone have a reason why I shouldn't switch to GPL
2020-05-26 15:35:09 @tomasino you're the only contributor so far, right?
2020-05-26 15:35:13 @tomasino do as thou wilt!
2020-05-26 15:35:24 @tomasino i personally like gpl-3, but it's up to you
2020-05-26 15:40:36 bard gpl is good
2020-05-26 15:41:08 jan6 also why no CC for code?
2020-05-26 15:41:53 bard any non-commercial clause breaks freedom 0 (use the software for any purpose) of free software, so that'd be a no-go for me at least
2020-05-26 15:42:37 wgreenhouse agree. it makes it non-free
2020-05-26 15:42:52 wgreenhouse and for server software in particular it's a bizarre thing to do
2020-05-26 15:42:59 wgreenhouse > try to encourage uptake of a new protocol
2020-05-26 15:43:12 wgreenhouse > make reference server unable to be used for commercial purposes
2020-05-26 15:43:13 wgreenhouse wat
2020-05-26 15:43:19 makeworld Yeah it's so strange
2020-05-26 15:43:34 ⚡ lick now has drone ci push to his gemini pod yay https://drone.tildegit.org/LickTheCheese/pod/7
2020-05-26 15:43:47 wgreenhouse I can see doing it for a game, since that is possibly more like art than software
2020-05-26 15:43:51 wgreenhouse but for a server?
2020-05-26 15:44:17 makeworld jan6: https://creativecommons.org/faq/#can-i-apply-a-creative-commons-license-to-software
2020-05-26 15:44:32 makeworld "Unlike software-specific licenses, CC licenses do not contain specific terms about the distribution of source code, which is often important to ensuring the free reuse and modifiability of software."
2020-05-26 15:44:51 makeworld The wording and history of the licenses are not aimed at software, and so it wouldn't be as strong legally
2020-05-26 15:45:06 makeworld They are also not GPL compatible
2020-05-26 15:45:16 lick whos stopping them from using gpl software for commertial use? they can just make their stuff open source lol
2020-05-26 15:46:48 wgreenhouse lick: gpl can be used commercially just fine
2020-05-26 15:46:55 @tomasino i'm pretty sick of the word free being used in software context at all. It just causes needless confusion and argument about semantics. Libre & Gratis. What matters to you most
2020-05-26 15:47:05 wgreenhouse lick: but the dev of jetforce decided to use a non-commercial license
2020-05-26 15:47:23 lick ohhh
2020-05-26 15:47:31 wgreenhouse yeah, weird right?
2020-05-26 15:47:43 bard I'd rather people default to free meaning freedom than cost, plus wikipedia's article on "free software" is for free as in freedom software, not freeware or anything like that
2020-05-26 15:47:52 @tomasino jetforce's choice of license is strange since there are others that achieve the same goal with more mature usage, but ultimately it is what it is
2020-05-26 15:48:16 lick lolwut thats such a strange license, it can be closed source but you cant charge money?
2020-05-26 15:48:33 makeworld I feel like I've seen other Gemini software that chooses the FFSL, can anyone confirm?
2020-05-26 15:48:57 @tomasino a lot of early gratis software was closed source
2020-05-26 15:50:00 @tomasino I care more about my software being available gratis than libre
2020-05-26 15:50:15 makeworld Oh shoot I just changed the license but I remember a reason why MIT might make sense. It also works as a Python library, and I don't want to force people to use GPL
2020-05-26 15:50:20 makeworld Oh wait I'll just switch to LGPL
2020-05-26 15:50:33 @tomasino there ya go
2020-05-26 15:50:39 makeworld Lol
2020-05-26 15:51:06 @tomasino anywho, license however you like, peoples
2020-05-26 15:51:24 @tomasino if a company wants to rip you off they'll do it and drown you in legal fees anyway
2020-05-26 15:51:27 @tomasino so it's all moot
2020-05-26 15:51:33 makeworld :(
2020-05-26 15:51:48 makeworld However I think the risk of that happening to Gemini projects is pretty low lol
2020-05-26 15:51:58 @tomasino :D likely
2020-05-26 15:52:26 @tomasino i made one small amendment to the end of my superman part 2, if any of you read it already
2020-05-26 15:59:35 makeworld What's the link again?
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2020-05-26 16:26:07 login windows makes more money from enterprise licences i think
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2020-05-26 16:58:07 @tomasino makeworld:gemini://tilde.black/users/fox/vintagetv/superman-02.gmi
2020-05-26 16:59:44 makeworld Oh okay thanks
2020-05-26 16:59:52 makeworld I haven't read it yet but the ASCII art draws me in :)
2020-05-26 17:03:34 @tomasino :D
2020-05-26 17:03:44 @tomasino i just tweaked some formatting and added links to part 1 and so-on
2020-05-26 18:10:09 ~tiwesdaeg ugh, compiling gemserv on my old raspberry pi b
2020-05-26 18:10:20 ~tiwesdaeg this is going to take a year
2020-05-26 18:10:28 kayw oh boy
2020-05-26 18:10:41 kayw why not just cross compile a static binary or something
2020-05-26 18:10:59 ~tiwesdaeg the little guy needs the exercise
2020-05-26 18:11:35 ~tiwesdaeg nice, failed on the first crate
2020-05-26 18:14:20 ~tiwesdaeg invalid memory reference
2020-05-26 18:14:24 ~tiwesdaeg maybe I can't?
2020-05-26 18:15:03 ~tiwesdaeg come on, 512mb is plenty of memory
2020-05-26 18:18:24 ~tiwesdaeg looks like an arm bug for libc
2020-05-26 18:21:30 ~tiwesdaeg kayw: on your ~pink gemini page, did you want to show that actual code for gemini links or create gemini links as examples that don't work?
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2020-05-26 18:23:22 lick tiwesdaeg: i tried compiling it on my pi zero it didint work lol
2020-05-26 18:24:31 ~tiwesdaeg libc failed?
2020-05-26 18:24:49 ~tiwesdaeg [profile.release]
2020-05-26 18:24:49 kayw oh uhh, fuck
2020-05-26 18:24:51 ~tiwesdaeg codegen-units = 1
2020-05-26 18:24:58 kayw i forgot to finish setting it up
2020-05-26 18:25:03 kayw thanks for reminding me
2020-05-26 18:25:04 ~tiwesdaeg I put that in the Cargo.toml and libc built
2020-05-26 18:25:39 ~tiwesdaeg kayw: you can use ``` for the links if you meant to display the code
2020-05-26 18:26:02 kayw thanks
2020-05-26 18:26:41 ~tiwesdaeg I like to poke around at the new user pages on pink
2020-05-26 18:27:09 ~tiwesdaeg woo, built 28 of 89
2020-05-26 18:27:24 ~tiwesdaeg I'm full expecting openssl or openssl-sys to fail
2020-05-26 18:28:02 kayw alright, cool
2020-05-26 18:28:11 kayw i set it up
2020-05-26 18:28:44 ~tiwesdaeg haha, I leave those links all over the place too
2020-05-26 18:29:35 ~tiwesdaeg woo, openssl-sys built
2020-05-26 18:30:09 ~tiwesdaeg lick: your pi zero has the same cpu as my old pi b I believe
2020-05-26 18:31:14 lick huh
2020-05-26 18:31:45 ~tiwesdaeg I have a couple pi zeros and a 3 b+ too
2020-05-26 19:58:48 ~tiwesdaeg lick: it compiled!
2020-05-26 19:59:07 ~tiwesdaeg those two lines I pasted up there might do the trick for you
2020-05-26 19:59:26 lick oo
2020-05-26 20:15:57 ~tiwesdaeg it works!
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2020-05-26 21:09:55 lukee @tiwesdaeg - I managed to compile Molly Brown on a Pi B. Most of the other servers I tried didnt succeed
2020-05-26 21:48:19 ~tiwesdaeg So gemserv and molly brown both work on old pi's
2020-05-26 21:48:57 ~tiwesdaeg I would think jetforce would probably work too
2020-05-26 21:49:57 kayw dont see why it wouldn't, it's python
2020-05-26 21:52:50 ~tiwesdaeg ok, now to see if I can convert over my weather software
2020-05-26 21:56:56 lick tiwesdaeg: jetforce works, i use it on my pi
2020-05-26 21:58:20 ~tiwesdaeg ooo, maybe we should create a gemini server ready pi image
2020-05-26 21:58:25 lick ooo
2020-05-26 21:58:38 ~tiwesdaeg geminpi, gempi, gemini pi
2020-05-26 21:58:44 kayw i like gempi
2020-05-26 21:58:45 ~tiwesdaeg I think the last one sounds nice
2020-05-26 21:59:13 kayw i would host my gemini server on my rpi, but i dont have a static pi :(
2020-05-26 21:59:17 kayw ip*
2020-05-26 21:59:35 ~tiwesdaeg I technically don't but it's been the same for a year and a half
2020-05-26 21:59:53 kayw mine changed like 2 days ago
2020-05-26 22:00:02 ~tiwesdaeg I'm on fiber
2020-05-26 22:00:20 kayw i believe i am too
2020-05-26 22:00:23 ~tiwesdaeg even when if went down for a few days due to neighbor's lawn mower
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2020-05-26 22:55:37 makeworld lukee: Why not cross-compile for the Pi? Idk what that's like for Rust but Molly is written in Go and it's super easy
2020-05-26 23:01:15 lukee I'm new to Go. I didnt remember you can cross-compile. I first downloaded the molly binary which worked but I wanted to tweak the source
2020-05-26 23:01:41 lukee so it seemed to make sense to compile in situ. It didnt take too long really - maybe 30 seconds
2020-05-26 23:02:46 lukee Molly doesnt pass the query string via the environment, so my tweak was to make it more "CGI" like
2020-05-26 23:07:18 lukee I made a small change to gemget too to get it to compile - it references a progress bar which needs a more recent Go than I can install on my old pi
2020-05-26 23:07:30 lukee I just removed the reference then it compiled ok
2020-05-26 23:08:01 makeworld Oh what Go version do you have?
2020-05-26 23:08:15 makeworld But yeah the progress bar is just for fun
2020-05-26 23:11:11 lukee go version go1.11.6 linux/arm
2020-05-26 23:12:03 makeworld Hmm I thought that should work, as an absolute minimum, but maybe not
2020-05-26 23:12:08 lukee I have a recent raspbian but it doesnt want to let me upgrade to a more recent Go than that
2020-05-26 23:12:15 makeworld Do you remember the error?
2020-05-26 23:12:30 lukee it complained the progress bar needing "Millisecond" support
2020-05-26 23:13:09 makeworld Huh that's weird
2020-05-26 23:13:24 makeworld Guess it really was the version then
2020-05-26 23:13:29 lukee I googled it and apparently it was fixed in a later Go version
2020-05-26 23:14:20 makeworld Aha
2020-05-26 23:14:24 makeworld https://www.e-tinkers.com/2019/06/better-way-to-install-golang-go-on-raspberry-pi/
2020-05-26 23:14:34 lukee I've been using gemget as a gemini client in my forthcoming Windows client. It seems to work well
2020-05-26 23:14:42 makeworld Not too hard to update the version, there's just not a pkg though
2020-05-26 23:14:48 makeworld Oh you have?
2020-05-26 23:14:56 makeworld Cool to see it getting some use :)
2020-05-26 23:15:16 makeworld How are you using it though?
2020-05-26 23:15:49 lukee via the command line
2020-05-26 23:16:22 lukee One thing I couldnt see how to do yet is how do I get the mime type coming back from the server?
2020-05-26 23:17:52 makeworld No I meant how does it integrate with your windows client
2020-05-26 23:17:57 lukee At the moment I just assume everything is text/gemini
2020-05-26 23:18:17 makeworld The mime type is in the META area of a response
2020-05-26 23:18:24 makeworld But gemget doesn't display that for you
2020-05-26 23:18:47 lukee It would be great if there was a way to get it, otherwise I have to guess
2020-05-26 23:19:29 makeworld Yeah, you shouldn't really be guessing. Gemget is not really the tool for this. It's just made for downloading
2020-05-26 23:19:32 lukee I've been using the -o to save the GMI to a file then parsing some of the content returned on stout
2020-05-26 23:20:11 lukee Maybe, but it works fine for my purposes right now :-)
2020-05-26 23:20:57 lukee eventually I will use a dedicated client. but at the moment I just want to focus on the UI aspects
2020-05-26 23:21:11 makeworld Hey, if you're able to use it that's great! Just be aware of its limitations
2020-05-26 23:21:17 lukee so having another application do the networking is helpful
2020-05-26 23:21:29 makeworld Happy to be able to make something that people can use
2020-05-26 23:21:30 lukee OK, thats fair enough
2020-05-26 23:24:05 makeworld tomasino: Just finished superman 01, great analysis :D
2020-05-26 23:24:18 makeworld Keep writing! For now, I'll be moving on to the next one
2020-05-26 23:24:39 lukee I might tweak the source so it puts the mime type on std out like some other output.
2020-05-26 23:24:55 lukee maybe like this *** mime type: text/gemini ***
2020-05-26 23:25:31 lukee anyway thanks for it so far it has been helpful. If I make any other changes I'll let you know
2020-05-26 23:26:24 makeworld Sure yeah, you're welcome. I'd appreciate if you release your source changes at some point, but you don't have to
2020-05-26 23:27:20 lukee yes I will if I'm not too embarrassed by them. I'm just dipping a toe in the Go waters for the first time
2020-05-26 23:30:11 @tomasino Thanks for reading makeworld
2020-05-26 23:30:54 makeworld I wasn't expecting the ending of the first one, it's a good connection though
2020-05-26 23:31:59 gbmor lukee Go is really fun to use. I really recommend the Go Programming Language by Kernighan, it's a solid book and it's not a super long read.
2020-05-26 23:33:46 @tomasino I'm having fun with it
2020-05-26 23:33:57 lukee gbmor: thanks for the recommendation - I'll check it out.
2020-05-26 23:33:57 @tomasino Just letting my mind wander as I watch
2020-05-26 23:35:18 gbmor no problem :)
2020-05-26 23:47:23 makeworld It's great
2020-05-26 23:47:27 makeworld Thinking of writing more?
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2020-05-27 00:00:06 @tomasino Oh yes
2020-05-27 00:00:13 @tomasino I'm barely at the end of season 1
2020-05-27 00:00:43 @tomasino I'm already looking forward to when I do Patty Duke
2020-05-27 00:07:57 styan Are there any features other than user-dirs (and CGI, but I am not going to do tha at first) that anyone would like in a server?
2020-05-27 00:11:02 styan Also, I already wrote the user-dir binary that can be used to send fds from the userdir to the chrooted server. I do not know how useful such a model is outside of C though.
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2020-05-27 00:57:13 ~tiwesdaeg now I want to use one of my pi zeros as gemini appliance
2020-05-27 00:57:25 ~tiwesdaeg what can I make it do?
2020-05-27 01:23:46 makeworld tiwesdaeg: Hook it up to some sensors and publish the data live on Gemini
2020-05-27 01:24:05 makeworld I think I saw someone do that with weather stuff on Gopher before
2020-05-27 01:25:15 cmccabe wire it to your thermostat and let random people in the geminisphere control your home temperature
2020-05-27 01:36:34 ~tiwesdaeg makeworld: that was me ;P
2020-05-27 01:37:14 ~tiwesdaeg I'm working on converting the pi b weather station to gemini
2020-05-27 01:37:56 ~tiwesdaeg The main page works gemini://perilo.us/
2020-05-27 01:49:33 kayw damn, i cant get cgi scripts working
2020-05-27 01:49:40 kayw i don't know what im doing wrong
2020-05-27 01:53:44 @ben do you have 20 text/gemini\r\n
2020-05-27 01:55:04 kayw yes
2020-05-27 01:55:15 kayw but bombadillo just shows it as the raw text
2020-05-27 01:55:22 kayw and im using jetforce locally
2020-05-27 01:59:09 @ben oh i'm not familiar with the cgi in jetforce
2020-05-27 01:59:19 kayw what do you use?
2020-05-27 01:59:27 @ben gemserv
2020-05-27 02:01:21 kayw oh okay
2020-05-27 02:03:16 kayw yeah i might give gemserv a try
2020-05-27 02:04:22 @ben it's nice
2020-05-27 02:04:28 @ben i'm running the cgi-everywhere branch
2020-05-27 02:05:48 kayw oh? does that just make it so that everything is considered a potential cgi script?
2020-05-27 02:07:33 @ben pretty much
2020-05-27 02:07:36 kayw neat
2020-05-27 02:07:38 ~tiwesdaeg You have to make the file executable first
2020-05-27 02:08:13 kayw yeah i know
2020-05-27 02:08:19 ~tiwesdaeg There's no difference in name for index.gmi
2020-05-27 02:08:44 ~tiwesdaeg The file can be any name really
2020-05-27 02:10:51 kayw ok im building gemserv now
2020-05-27 02:12:35 kayw oh that was fast
2020-05-27 02:35:16 ~tiwesdaeg takes a long time on an old pi
2020-05-27 02:37:02 makeworld tiwesdaeg: That was you? Awesome. What's the gopher link?
2020-05-27 02:37:20 ~tiwesdaeg gopher://perilo.us ;)
2020-05-27 02:37:42 makeworld The gemini one doesn't work btw
2020-05-27 02:37:46 ~tiwesdaeg I'm running in to weird issues with how the cgi scripts handle directories
2020-05-27 02:37:55 ~tiwesdaeg they'll work from the command line but not in browser
2020-05-27 02:38:19 ~tiwesdaeg well, it was
2020-05-27 02:38:28 makeworld Aha I might ahve
2020-05-27 02:38:28 ~tiwesdaeg I was playing with scripts
2020-05-27 02:38:35 makeworld *I might have had the same issue
2020-05-27 02:38:39 makeworld What server?
2020-05-27 02:38:39 ~tiwesdaeg it's a work in progress
2020-05-27 02:38:43 ~tiwesdaeg gemserv
2020-05-27 02:38:53 ~tiwesdaeg geomyidae for gopher
2020-05-27 02:39:11 ~tiwesdaeg it doesn't like using pwd
2020-05-27 02:39:22 ~tiwesdaeg but if I manually set the directory, it was working
2020-05-27 02:39:34 ~tiwesdaeg I could just convert it all to python
2020-05-27 02:39:46 ~tiwesdaeg shouldn't be as much of a problem then
2020-05-27 02:40:01 ~tiwesdaeg I've also improved my sqlite3 skills now too
2020-05-27 02:40:24 lick oooo cool graphics
2020-05-27 02:40:32 ~tiwesdaeg right now, everything is kept in txt files
2020-05-27 02:40:44 ~tiwesdaeg I had a lot of fun with the layout
2020-05-27 02:40:48 makeworld Yeah idk even in Go I had problems with getting the directory and stuff
2020-05-27 02:40:54 lick is the daily plot gnuplot?
2020-05-27 02:40:58 makeworld I don't remember exactly the issue unfortunately
2020-05-27 02:41:05 ~tiwesdaeg it gets complicated with line lengths as numbers change lengths
2020-05-27 02:41:07 ~tiwesdaeg yep
2020-05-27 02:41:31 ~tiwesdaeg there are also plots of a lot of data if you dig in to the logs
2020-05-27 02:41:47 makeworld I ended up having to use this to get the directory: https://golang.org/pkg/os/#Executable
2020-05-27 02:42:27 makeworld Which is just something that gives the current path of the executable
2020-05-27 02:42:52 makeworld But using stuff like Open("filename") wouldn't open in the directory I expected
2020-05-27 02:43:03 makeworld I think it has something to do with CGI, I guess
2020-05-27 02:43:12 ~tiwesdaeg it could be that gemserv is still executing the binaries as if they were in cgi-bin
2020-05-27 02:43:25 makeworld As opposed to?
2020-05-27 02:43:35 ~tiwesdaeg the directory the script is actually located in
2020-05-27 02:43:38 makeworld My problem was that they were in cgi-bin, but didn't act like it
2020-05-27 02:43:46 makeworld Are you using a symlink?
2020-05-27 02:43:58 ~tiwesdaeg no, gemserv has a branch for cgi-everywhere
2020-05-27 02:44:04 ~tiwesdaeg that's what I am playing with
2020-05-27 02:44:17 makeworld Ah
2020-05-27 02:44:22 makeworld Yeah I can't speak to that sorry
2020-05-27 02:46:03 ~tiwesdaeg try gemini://perilo.us/ again
2020-05-27 02:47:48 kayw woah thats neat as fuck
2020-05-27 02:48:49 ~tiwesdaeg it's still not fully functional, just the main page
2020-05-27 02:48:56 ~tiwesdaeg the gopher version works fine though
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2020-05-27 02:55:37 makeworld Wow very nice
2020-05-27 02:55:40 makeworld What's not functional?
2020-05-27 02:56:24 ~tiwesdaeg all the log stuff
2020-05-27 02:56:30 kayw alright cool, i'm now using gemserv
2020-05-27 02:56:52 makeworld Loads fine for me
2020-05-27 02:57:00 ~tiwesdaeg on the gopher side, you can go back and view all the old logs and display plots of different sorts of data
2020-05-27 02:57:10 makeworld Ah ok
2020-05-27 02:57:24 makeworld The server's kinda slow to load btw
2020-05-27 02:57:41 ~tiwesdaeg also, this is a duplicate of the /var/gopher director from earlier today
2020-05-27 02:58:11 ~tiwesdaeg the program updating the log files isn't touching the files in /var/gemini
2020-05-27 02:58:31 ~tiwesdaeg it'll probably break in the morning ;P
2020-05-27 02:59:35 makeworld Perfect
2020-05-27 03:00:31 ~tiwesdaeg bedtime now
2020-05-27 03:00:38 ~tiwesdaeg it's a project for the morning
2020-05-27 03:01:24 makeworld See ya
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2020-05-27 05:47:38 lukee ~tiwesdaeg: like the new weather station. Can I suggest to wrap the chart data in ``` as not every client uses fixed text font. That will make them come out nice
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2020-05-27 11:15:23 ~tiwesdaeg yeah, I'm still not done converting it over from gopher
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2020-05-27 11:58:59 cat whoa
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2020-05-27 12:01:07 @tomasino uh...
2020-05-27 12:03:44 kayw what the fuck
2020-05-27 12:14:44 xq that's a lot of XOFF
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2020-05-27 12:55:05 ~tiwesdaeg it looked cooler on my phone
2020-05-27 12:56:56 dkibi tiwesdaeg: perilo.us crashes castor and asuka -.-
2020-05-27 12:57:12 ~tiwesdaeg it probably isn't working now, since it's a new day
2020-05-27 12:58:04 dkibi s/periolo.us/an inactive server/
2020-05-27 12:58:08 ~tiwesdaeg basically, the program that writes the weather data to file, is saving that in /var/gopher
2020-05-27 12:58:22 ~tiwesdaeg I copied /var/gopher vo /var/gemini yesterday
2020-05-27 12:59:00 ~tiwesdaeg I'm going to work on it today to expand capabilities
2020-05-27 12:59:26 ~tiwesdaeg my goal is to eventually shut down the gopher server, so I didn't just create symbolic links to the data
2020-05-27 12:59:46 dkibi I must admit that I mostly tried to access it to try out those clients and the link was on my screen (and is nice and short)
2020-05-27 13:03:12 ~tiwesdaeg try now
2020-05-27 13:08:26 dkibi oh nice!
2020-05-27 13:09:56 ~tiwesdaeg it's still a work in progress since gemserv cgi behaves differently than geomyidae
2020-05-27 13:12:57 kayw i couldn't even get the gemserv cgi working last night
2020-05-27 13:15:27 ~tiwesdaeg were you using the master branch or cgi-everywhere?
2020-05-27 13:15:48 kayw cgi-everywhere
2020-05-27 13:16:19 kayw i had the "20 text/gemini\r\n" at the top too
2020-05-27 13:16:29 kayw and it was executable
2020-05-27 13:16:45 ~tiwesdaeg printf "20 text/gemini\r\n"
2020-05-27 13:17:01 ~tiwesdaeg above tha should be at least #!/bin/sh
2020-05-27 13:18:04 ~tiwesdaeg the printf command actually outputs the text and allows you specify \r\n
2020-05-27 13:18:22 ~tiwesdaeg after that you could use echo
2020-05-27 13:18:32 ~tiwesdaeg like echo "Hellow World!"
2020-05-27 13:18:45 ~tiwesdaeg you know, if I could type
2020-05-27 13:19:41 kayw yeah i was using python so i had a print statement with exactly that, but i'll try it again
2020-05-27 13:20:46 ~tiwesdaeg start with a simple shell script to make sure it works
2020-05-27 13:21:00 ~tiwesdaeg #!/bin/sh
2020-05-27 13:21:13 ~tiwesdaeg printf "20 text/gemini\r\n"
2020-05-27 13:21:24 ~tiwesdaeg echo "Hello World!"
2020-05-27 13:21:40 ~tiwesdaeg I think I have an python example somewhere
2020-05-27 13:22:07 kayw oh sweet
2020-05-27 13:30:51 ~tiwesdaeg kayw: gemini://libraryoferis.org/cgi-bin/py.cgi
2020-05-27 13:31:17 ~tiwesdaeg that server is on the master branch
2020-05-27 13:34:07 kayw oh okay
2020-05-27 13:34:30 kayw another thing, do all files have to be executable?
2020-05-27 13:34:52 ~tiwesdaeg only ones you want to run as scripts
2020-05-27 13:35:10 kayw oh okay
2020-05-27 13:35:20 ~tiwesdaeg so, if you have say, about.gmi
2020-05-27 13:35:56 ~tiwesdaeg and you just want static content, then just use standard gemini format
2020-05-27 13:37:40 kayw ok cool, i got it to work with a bash script
2020-05-27 13:38:23 kayw gemini://salejandro.me/test.gmi
2020-05-27 13:41:17 ~tiwesdaeg did my python example work for you?
2020-05-27 13:42:05 kayw i'm gonna try it in a bit
2020-05-27 13:42:57 ~tiwesdaeg man, work is putting a dent in my morning gemini fun time
2020-05-27 13:49:12 kayw yeah, same with my school work
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2020-05-27 14:17:54 makeworld Did I miss much? My Internet was disconnected :/
2020-05-27 14:18:28 makeworld Last msg I have is at 1:47 EDT by luk ee
2020-05-27 14:18:45 @tomasino we were all talking about you
2020-05-27 14:19:50 kayw very poorly, too /s
2020-05-27 14:20:04 makeworld I'm shocked
2020-05-27 14:21:52 ~tiwesdaeg poking around at getting kayw's python cgi working
2020-05-27 14:22:49 kayw thankfully, it's been solved
2020-05-27 14:23:07 kayw i'm just a moron and had made my index executable when it's not even a script
2020-05-27 14:23:30 ~tiwesdaeg that would do it
2020-05-27 16:16:57 kayw well, now i dont know what im doing wrong
2020-05-27 16:17:16 kayw i have the print statement for `20 text/gemini\r\n` in my script but av98 is reporting an invalid header
2020-05-27 16:26:20 ~tiwesdaeg kayw: shell or python?
2020-05-27 16:27:04 kayw python
2020-05-27 16:30:32 ~tiwesdaeg let me try
2020-05-27 16:31:16 ~tiwesdaeg av98 like my gemini://libraryoferis.org/cgi-bin/py.cgi
2020-05-27 16:31:44 ~tiwesdaeg do you have it printing anything before the 20 line?\
2020-05-27 16:46:22 kayw nope nothing
2020-05-27 17:17:50 makeworld kayw: Loads for me
2020-05-27 17:17:56 makeworld In Bombadillo
2020-05-27 17:21:03 kayw makeworld: try gemini://salejandro.me/index-cgi.gmi
2020-05-27 17:44:12 makeworld I see the issue
2020-05-27 17:44:17 makeworld I looked at the raw response
2020-05-27 17:44:39 makeworld And you're printing a giant welcome banner before the status code line
2020-05-27 17:44:42 makeworld kayw
2020-05-27 17:44:58 makeworld Also: *** Fatal error: The TLS connection was non-properly terminated.
2020-05-27 17:47:59 gbmor kayw: scroll to the bottom, below the cert https://ttm.sh/QFx.txt
2020-05-27 17:58:19 kayw oh, thats odd
2020-05-27 17:58:28 kayw when i run the script it's formatted just fine
2020-05-27 17:59:27 kayw makeworld, gbmor: https://f.salejandro.me/index-cgi.gmi
2020-05-27 17:59:58 kayw https://i.salejandro.me/VYk5sS.png
2020-05-27 18:14:14 gbmor that's odd. i don't know enough about the python runtime to make an accurate diagnosis, but maybe it's waiting for the child process to return and print before it executes the remaining statements?
2020-05-27 18:14:31 kayw yeah maybe
2020-05-27 18:14:38 kayw i can just do a multiline comment
2020-05-27 18:14:51 kayw well not comment, but print statement
2020-05-27 18:18:05 gbmor ya
2020-05-27 18:18:36 kayw alright, now it works
2020-05-27 18:18:38 kayw finally
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2020-05-27 18:26:21 lukee tiwesdaeg: ah thats much better - can see the nicely formatted charts now
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2020-05-27 19:05:04 ~tiwesdaeg I'm still working on it
2020-05-27 19:05:32 ~tiwesdaeg had to talk to int 80h about an issue with the cgi and he updated the branch
2020-05-27 19:05:41 ~tiwesdaeg I am now compiling it
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2020-05-27 21:03:58 makeworld kayw: What did you change? That's a very strange bug
2020-05-27 21:04:12 makeworld Oh did you just paste in the banner as text?
2020-05-27 21:05:19 kayw yeah i put it in as text
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2020-05-27 22:30:50 @tomasino I'm playing the glider album sloum shared on one of his music sprockets
2020-05-27 22:31:05 @tomasino my wife walked by and asked what i was listening to, so i let her listen and she's like "who is this?"
2020-05-27 22:31:15 @tomasino so I tell her, "oh, it's exclusive to gemini"
2020-05-27 22:31:22 @tomasino "what's gemini?" she asks
2020-05-27 22:31:37 @tomasino "It's a place for people who think gopher is getting too crowded. :D"
2020-05-27 22:38:27 wangofett rofl
2020-05-27 22:39:55 wangofett When you liked things when they were still underground, but underground is too crowded, have you tried reaching for the stars?
2020-05-27 22:41:03 @tomasino there's fewer people in outer space than in underground burrows, for now
2020-05-27 22:42:47 `epoch rocket maaaaaaaan, burning out his fuse up here alone
2020-05-27 22:42:55 `epoch and I think it's gonna be a long long time
2020-05-27 22:43:11 `epoch or maybe space oddity?
2020-05-27 22:46:00 cmccabe when gemini fills up, there's always finger
2020-05-27 22:46:17 @tomasino i do have some wonderful finger content
2020-05-27 22:46:37 `epoch and whois, which is pretty much the same protocol
2020-05-27 22:46:42 `epoch [something]\r\n
2020-05-27 22:47:27 @tomasino please finger all sorts of things @cosmic.voyage
2020-05-27 22:47:31 @tomasino there's fun to be had
2020-05-27 22:48:25 `epoch https://archive.org/details/David_Bowie-Space_Oddity
2020-05-27 22:48:35 @tomasino we even have reverse pings! finger ping@cosmic.voyage
2020-05-27 22:48:45 `epoch majortom@cosmic.voyage?
2020-05-27 22:48:54 @tomasino well, tomasino@ works
2020-05-27 22:49:28 `epoch I used to have a reverse ident service for a while.
2020-05-27 22:49:49 `epoch you'd connect to it, and it'd connect to your ident daemon and find out who you were, then tell you who you were.
2020-05-27 22:50:08 @tomasino i curl https://tomasino.org/ip sometimes
2020-05-27 22:50:31 @tomasino not quite the same
2020-05-27 22:50:32 @ben curl ip.ttm.sh
2020-05-27 22:50:44 `epoch I guess i could have the reverse ident thing be a finger or whois target
2020-05-27 22:50:58 @tomasino yep yep yep
2020-05-27 22:51:26 `epoch wouldn't want it to conflict with real possible targets
2020-05-27 22:51:28 @tomasino https://tildegit.org/cosmic/cosmic/src/branch/master/efingerd/nouser#L15-L19
2020-05-27 23:14:48 wangofett tomasino:way more space in outerspace, too
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2020-05-28 01:22:11 ℹ Mode #gemini [+oqo ben tiwesdaeg tiwesdaeg] by hub.tilde.chat
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2020-05-28 02:49:55 makeworld tomasino: How'd you get my IP!!11!!1
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2020-05-28 04:01:30 lick makeworld: lol wut
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2020-05-28 11:21:40 lukee I'm about to announce this on the email list, but here is a link to my new Windows gemini client
2020-05-28 11:21:41 lukee https://www.marmaladefoo.com/pages/geminaut
2020-05-28 11:23:39 cmccabe the website looks nice, lukee. i don't have a windows machine or i would try it out
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2020-05-28 12:46:49 lukee thanks
2020-05-28 13:22:49 ~tiwesdaeg tomasino: what are you using to customize your fingerd response?
2020-05-28 13:23:26 ~tiwesdaeg it looks like I have the option to use -P for a customized program
2020-05-28 13:23:46 @tomasino efingerd
2020-05-28 13:24:02 @tomasino it lets you write your own handler as a user
2020-05-28 13:24:14 @tomasino or, i did that.... one of those
2020-05-28 13:24:16 @tomasino lemme check
2020-05-28 13:24:34 @tomasino https://tildegit.org/cosmic/cosmic/src/branch/master/efingerd/luser
2020-05-28 13:25:48 @tomasino yes, it's built in
2020-05-28 13:25:57 @tomasino that's the default that happens if you don't define an override
2020-05-28 13:26:00 @tomasino ~/.efingerd
2020-05-28 13:26:07 @tomasino create that file and finger will run that when you get fingered
2020-05-28 13:26:09 ~tiwesdaeg neat, thank you
2020-05-28 13:26:24 @tomasino http://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/bionic/man8/efingerd.8.html
2020-05-28 13:26:35 ~tiwesdaeg I have finger enabled on tilde.pink, but I was wondering about customizing it a bit
2020-05-28 13:26:39 @tomasino it's pretty friendly
2020-05-28 13:26:41 @tomasino ahh, coolio
2020-05-28 13:26:57 @tomasino yeah, i have all my finger scripts up on that tildegit repo. feel free to steal and build
2020-05-28 13:35:50 ~tiwesdaeg doesn't look like efingerd is going to build on netbsd
2020-05-28 13:59:25 @tomasino oh poop
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2020-05-28 15:15:29 login hi tastytea
2020-05-28 15:16:38 tastytea Hi.
2020-05-28 15:17:01 login how are you?
2020-05-28 15:19:57 tastytea That's hard to answer. Good relative to some, bad relative to others.
2020-05-28 15:24:14 login true, it's the same for me
2020-05-28 15:24:20 login how are you compared to yesterday>
2020-05-28 15:24:24 login s/>/?
2020-05-28 15:28:24 tastytea I guess about the same.
2020-05-28 15:36:16 login and how will you be tomorrow compared to today?
2020-05-28 17:10:37 jan6 impossible to answer
2020-05-28 17:10:42 ⚡ jan6 drinks tastytea
2020-05-28 18:03:38 makeworld o.o
2020-05-28 18:04:10 makeworld lukee: Your client looks really nice! In the screenshots, anyway, I don't run Windows either :P
2020-05-28 18:04:26 makeworld Do you think there's a way to run it on Linux with dotnet core or something?
2020-05-28 18:04:39 makeworld I was gonna be cheeky and open Linux support as the first issue
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2020-05-28 19:16:21 lukee ha ha
2020-05-28 19:17:03 lukee it would be nice I agree. Most of the work of the client is orchestrating the webbrowser that renders the content
2020-05-28 19:17:48 lukee The rendering of the GMI to HTML is done by REBOL, which is cross platform
2020-05-28 19:18:19 lukee so I think it might be possible, but it might involve going down the route towards Electron
2020-05-28 19:24:30 lukee It is - as they say - an exercise for the reader.
2020-05-28 19:24:52 lukee At this stage I'm more interested in making it a nice experience on Windows
2020-05-28 19:26:56 lukee So the cross-platform web browser element is quite challenging idea.
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2020-05-28 19:40:33 @tomasino lukee: you shared the windows one on the mailing list earlier? looks great! I was trying to see screenshots that show more heirarchy + code fencing all at once. Wasn't someone making a demo page?
2020-05-28 19:42:37 lukee What page would you like to see rendered?
2020-05-28 19:51:04 @tomasino i thought someone had discussed making a specific "test page" that demo'd all of the possible gemini markup on a single page so we could use it for testing
2020-05-28 19:51:10 @tomasino i don't remember if anyone actually did that, though
2020-05-28 19:51:21 @tomasino makeworld, you pay more attention than i do. Do you recall?
2020-05-28 19:51:31 lukee I think it was mentioned, but I didnt see a link yet
2020-05-28 19:54:05 lukee here is an example page that has some code fences
2020-05-28 19:54:06 lukee https://www.marmaladefoo.com/vanilla/marmaladefoo/uploads/geminaut/geminaut_code_fences.png
2020-05-28 19:55:59 @tomasino pretty!
2020-05-28 19:56:00 @tomasino :)
2020-05-28 19:56:09 @tomasino hrm, well, if nobody has made one yet, maybe I should do that
2020-05-28 19:58:54 lukee sounds good.
2020-05-28 19:59:13 lukee here is one with some ascii art and some japanese unicode characters
2020-05-28 19:59:16 lukee https://www.marmaladefoo.com/vanilla/marmaladefoo/uploads/geminaut/geminaut_ascii_art.png
2020-05-28 20:06:06 @tomasino looks awesome
2020-05-28 20:06:20 @tomasino one of the nicest clients yet, for sure
2020-05-28 20:10:21 lukee well I've been a bit obsessed about it. My wife will tell you
2020-05-28 20:25:21 anelki ,shorten
2020-05-28 20:25:31 anelki oh. is bitbot not in here?
2020-05-28 20:47:43 ~tiwesdaeg nope, were tiny up until a couple weeks ago
2020-05-28 20:47:52 ~tiwesdaeg ^we
2020-05-28 20:56:13 anelki ahh yeah fair
2020-05-28 20:56:20 anelki I only joined last week
2020-05-28 21:13:13 makeworld tomasino: There probably is one but I don't remember sorry. It would be trivial to create though
2020-05-28 21:13:27 makeworld lukee: That's the best looking client I've seen so far, nice work
2020-05-28 21:13:33 @tomasino trivial is my favorite kind of effort
2020-05-28 21:13:53 makeworld Just makes me want to get it working on Linux even more
2020-05-28 21:14:40 makeworld It's kinda ridiculous how the stereotypes are coming out, where we have terminal clients that are Unix only and a nice GUI client that's Windows only
2020-05-28 21:14:42 makeworld Lol
2020-05-28 21:16:22 @tomasino castor is a gui!
2020-05-28 21:17:03 makeworld Yeah, there are definitely some Linux ones, I'm just cherry picking :)
2020-05-28 21:21:10 ~tiwesdaeg are there any http to gemini proxy git sites?
2020-05-28 21:21:25 ~tiwesdaeg I know of a couple proxies, but they don't link to the software
2020-05-28 21:23:40 makeworld I would email Michael (mozz) and ask
2020-05-28 21:23:45 makeworld He runs portal.mozz.us
2020-05-28 21:23:58 makeworld Or publicly shame on the mailing list
2020-05-28 21:26:35 ~tiwesdaeg I need to setup one for my wife to use if I move the weather station over to gemini fully
2020-05-28 21:27:06 ~tiwesdaeg she access the gopher side at https://wx.perilo.us
2020-05-28 21:27:22 ~tiwesdaeg and does not care in the least about protocols
2020-05-28 21:29:31 ~tiwesdaeg if I were smart enough, I'd modify the simple gopher proxy c program for gemini
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2020-05-28 21:43:41 lukee thanks, makeworld
2020-05-28 21:44:38 lick lol publicly shame on the mailing list
2020-05-28 21:55:44 lukee I've just implemented automatic page level table of contents
2020-05-28 21:55:49 lukee https://www.marmaladefoo.com/vanilla/marmaladefoo/uploads/geminaut/geminaut_toc.png
2020-05-28 21:55:56 lukee will do a new build
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2020-05-28 22:01:34 makeworld Wow nice
2020-05-28 22:01:48 makeworld What's the icon in the corner, some sort of hash?
2020-05-28 22:02:03 makeworld Also you should reply to Solderpunk's email once you do that
2020-05-28 22:02:20 makeworld The one where he was like "I wish clients had a table of contents"
2020-05-28 22:02:49 ⚡ makeworld afk
2020-05-28 22:02:56 lukee yes its a page level "placemarker", based on the hash of the current site URL.
2020-05-28 22:03:14 lukee yes I will. It was on my list and I knew it wasnt going to be hard
2020-05-28 22:04:11 lukee Eventually I was thinking if a site has a favicon, maybe it could go there, otherwise this is a unique "logo" for each site
2020-05-28 22:04:22 lukee to enhance the users visual memory of the site
2020-05-28 22:06:19 lukee my concept of a site is that it is either the domain, or possibly user specific, since there might be many users on the same domain
2020-05-28 22:06:37 lukee and you probably want a different "theme" for each user
2020-05-28 22:07:06 lukee so if there is /~username or /users/username in the path, then that is the differntiator
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2020-05-28 22:26:03 acdw Hey everyone! Do any of yall have any idea how to get Firefox to recognize gemini: as a protocol for, say, https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Navigator/registerProtocolHandler?
2020-05-28 22:26:25 acdw I want to fork OverbiteWX but FF doesn't recognize gemini!
2020-05-28 22:29:15 xq to natively support gemini, you have to change the core of firefox itself
2020-05-28 22:29:40 xq for something like registerProtocolHandler, you still need a server that does the translation for you, not possible in-client
2020-05-28 22:29:49 acdw The way OverbitWX does it is just redirect gopher requests to floodgap's proxy, which is what I'd want to do with the extension
2020-05-28 22:30:07 acdw have it redirect gemini: requests to portal.mozz.us or proxy.vulpes.one (ideally configurable by the user)
2020-05-28 22:31:35 acdw the problem is, registerProtocolHandler only accepts a list of protocols:
2020-05-28 22:31:35 acdw bitcoin
2020-05-28 22:31:35 acdw geo
2020-05-28 22:31:35 acdw im
2020-05-28 22:31:35 acdw irc
2020-05-28 22:31:35 acdw ircs
2020-05-28 22:31:35 acdw magnet
2020-05-28 22:31:35 acdw mailto
2020-05-28 22:31:35 acdw mms
2020-05-28 22:31:35 acdw news
2020-05-28 22:31:36 acdw nntp
2020-05-28 22:31:37 acdw openpgp4fpr
2020-05-28 22:31:38 acdw sip
2020-05-28 22:31:39 acdw sms
2020-05-28 22:31:40 acdw smsto
2020-05-28 22:31:41 acdw ssh
2020-05-28 22:31:42 acdw tel
2020-05-28 22:31:43 acdw urn
2020-05-28 22:31:44 acdw webcal
2020-05-28 22:31:45 acdw wtai
2020-05-28 22:31:46 acdw xmpp
2020-05-28 22:31:59 acdw (sorry, should've copy-pasted the link instead of the list)
2020-05-28 22:35:34 acdw it looks like there must be some method of getting Mozilla to add a protocol to the list -- bitcoin is pretty new, for example -- otherwise I need to use a protocol like "web+gemini"
2020-05-28 22:35:37 acdw which is clunky
2020-05-28 22:37:45 xq yeah, true
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2020-05-28 22:52:27 acdw I *thought* that dat was a protocol available too, but maybe I was mistaken. If it were I could ask the devs over there what kind of steps they took.
2020-05-28 22:59:53 acdw well thanks for helping xq!
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2020-05-28 23:00:29 @tomasino i just added gemini as a protocol handler in firefox and pointed it at castor
2020-05-28 23:00:42 @tomasino is that linux specific? dunno
2020-05-28 23:01:39 @tomasino https://ttm.sh/Qtr.png
2020-05-28 23:01:43 @tomasino it's right there in "General"
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2020-05-29 01:23:49 makeworld Gemini automatically shows up asking me about opening in Castor and Bombadillo without me doing anything
2020-05-29 01:24:09 makeworld But that might have been because of the Arch Linux pkg I installed them from
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2020-05-29 01:28:55 epoch I have firefox recognizing gemini as a protocol already
2020-05-29 01:29:05 epoch added two things to about:config
2020-05-29 01:29:21 epoch point it at "uristart" and configure it from inside there
2020-05-29 01:30:33 epoch that registerProtocolHandler is probably just for if you want to do that from javascript
2020-05-29 01:40:43 epoch I was thinking that a service that browsers could use to redirect unknown uri schemes to
2020-05-29 01:40:53 epoch would be cool
2020-05-29 01:41:35 epoch but probably be the target of a lot of malware attempts
2020-05-29 01:41:54 cmccabe makeworld: what package was that?
2020-05-29 01:42:22 epoch There's probably a .desktop file that they came with
2020-05-29 01:42:49 epoch that contains a line about being able to handle x-uri-scheme/gemini or something
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2020-05-29 07:06:23 ironzorg hi everybody
2020-05-29 07:06:57 ironzorg I was wondering if anybody had made any performance benchmarks involving HTTPS and Gemini
2020-05-29 07:07:42 ironzorg I'm interested to see if there would be any substancial improvements of using Gemini over HTTPS to fetch media, text documents etc.
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2020-05-29 07:43:18 styan I would imagine that there would not be any substantial difference, because at the end of the day they are both TLS connections over the same networks.
2020-05-29 07:45:02 ironzorg I expect *some* gains, when running several connections fetching kb/mb sized files
2020-05-29 07:45:12 ironzorg I just want to know how much
2020-05-29 07:45:41 styan Gemini does not do multiple files per connection, if that helps.
2020-05-29 07:46:46 styan I have not run any benchmarks, so I am only speculating. :-)
2020-05-29 07:48:00 ironzorg one file per connection
2020-05-29 07:48:23 ironzorg e.g. polling an RSS feed
2020-05-29 07:49:31 styan Then there are two things that I can think of off of the top of my head. Gemini has a smaller header, and HTTP supports compression (of uncompressed resources).
2020-05-29 07:51:03 ironzorg true
2020-05-29 07:56:21 styan I wonder what the best servers to compare would even be? Molly Brown and some Go httpd? Gemserv and thttpd?
2020-05-29 07:57:17 styan I doubt that comparing anything to Apache or Nginx would be useful for you.
2020-05-29 08:00:05 ironzorg actually it would be, for instance with RSS the URLs point at random servers who probably run Lighttpd/Apache/Nginx
2020-05-29 08:00:17 ironzorg s,who,that,
2020-05-29 08:03:09 ironzorg I also like the idea of running a documentation server in Gemini (e.g. a small wiki or man pages written in Gemini), without all the HTTP overlay
2020-05-29 08:03:29 ironzorg projects like TLDR could benefit from that
2020-05-29 08:05:07 southerntofu ironzorg: you mean like serving markdown pages with your gemini server?
2020-05-29 08:05:43 ironzorg yes
2020-05-29 08:06:15 ironzorg it's a suitable protocol because it supports authentication
2020-05-29 08:06:27 ironzorg without authentication you can just use Telnet I suppose
2020-05-29 08:06:28 southerntofu yeah i've been thinking of hooking up gemini support in my favorite SSG so i can geenrate my blog/docs both to HTML and gemini :)
2020-05-29 08:06:43 southerntofu what auth?
2020-05-29 08:07:06 ironzorg Gemini and user passwords
2020-05-29 08:07:28 ironzorg for like a company wiki that guests on the network shouldn't be able to access
2020-05-29 08:07:32 southerntofu yeah but how's that relevant to docs?
2020-05-29 08:07:34 southerntofu ah ok
2020-05-29 08:07:53 styan ironzorg: My thought was because Apache and Nginx have had so much work and complexity put into them, that comparing it to a simple new-ish server for a new-ish protocol would not really compair the underlying protocols.
2020-05-29 08:08:42 ironzorg probably
2020-05-29 08:09:02 styan s/compair/compare/
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2020-05-29 08:30:11 southerntofu i just sent a mail to the ML about DANE/GNS and how to distribute certificates :)
2020-05-29 09:13:11 styan Are there any implementations of GNS outside of GNUnet?
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2020-05-29 11:10:27 ironzorg has anybody made a dumb utility that simply queries a URL, like a very small Curl?
2020-05-29 11:18:10 @tomasino yes
2020-05-29 11:18:12 @tomasino there's a few
2020-05-29 11:18:30 @tomasino gurl and... what did the other one get renamed to... crap, i forget
2020-05-29 11:18:39 @tomasino plus jan6 made a shell script that daes that too
2020-05-29 11:18:57 ironzorg thanks, I'll look that yp
2020-05-29 11:18:59 ironzorg up
2020-05-29 11:19:35 @tomasino as for profling, my expectation would be that complex servers with lots of processing and redirects will be noticably slower than gemini on the handshake, but once data starts transferring will outpace it due to gzip
2020-05-29 12:41:25 jan6 ironzorg: https://tildegit.org/jan6/geminish/src/branch/master/gemini_get_openssl.sh is mine, if you're interested
2020-05-29 12:43:01 ironzorg cheers
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2020-05-29 14:30:07 makeworld cmccabe: Just search bombadillo and castor in AUR, there's only one pkg for each right now. They're both git pkgs
2020-05-29 14:36:03 makeworld southerntofu ironzorg: Related, I've been thinking about adding a plugin to some server that will automatically convert markdown files into gemini files using md2gemini
2020-05-29 14:36:12 makeworld Serving them on the fly
2020-05-29 14:37:51 ironzorg you could implement a new exporter for Pandoc
2020-05-29 14:38:20 ironzorg a Github wiki will typically have Mardown and Asciidoc, but there are other formats some of which Pandoc handles
2020-05-29 14:40:15 makeworld Hmm yeah, I'll look into that. Pandoc support would be cool
2020-05-29 14:40:32 makeworld I just made md2gemini to support that specific usecase
2020-05-29 14:41:15 makeworld Also everyone on the mailing list keeps trying to extend the text/gemini spec lol
2020-05-29 14:42:51 ~tiwesdaeg I'm stuck using windows for work this morning, so I installed geminaut!
2020-05-29 14:43:24 ironzorg is there a standard file extension for file containing Gemini markup?
2020-05-29 14:43:29 ironzorg I might have missed it in the spec
2020-05-29 14:44:05 ~tiwesdaeg .gmi/.gemini
2020-05-29 14:44:20 ~tiwesdaeg most of the servers seem to be working off of .gmi
2020-05-29 14:44:56 ironzorg cheers
2020-05-29 14:45:47 ironzorg it's not in the spec, is it?
2020-05-29 14:46:06 ~tiwesdaeg I don't remember seeing it
2020-05-29 14:47:47 ironzorg tiwesdaeg: are you Sean?
2020-05-29 14:48:09 ironzorg err, Solderpunk rather
2020-05-29 14:48:40 ~tiwesdaeg nope
2020-05-29 14:48:55 ~tiwesdaeg I'm just some guy
2020-05-29 14:49:16 ~tiwesdaeg I've sent a couple emails out on the mailing list
2020-05-29 14:49:33 ironzorg no matter :)
2020-05-29 14:49:45 ~tiwesdaeg I think solderpunk is allergic to irc
2020-05-29 14:50:02 ironzorg ironic
2020-05-29 14:50:18 ~tiwesdaeg I just quick read and did a search through the spec. I didn't see a mention of file naming standards
2020-05-29 14:50:43 ~tiwesdaeg I think solderpunk is leaving that up to the server developers
2020-05-29 14:51:25 ~tiwesdaeg basically, as long as the server responds with text/gemini, it doesn't matter the filename
2020-05-29 14:52:29 ironzorg editors like to have file extensions to highlight the file properly, it'd be nice to put that info somewhere
2020-05-29 14:52:49 ironzorg since the spec documents the markup language, it'd make sense to have that there as well
2020-05-29 14:52:52 ~tiwesdaeg you should suggest it on the mailing list ;P
2020-05-29 14:53:04 ~tiwesdaeg the unfreeze is happening shortly I believe
2020-05-29 15:01:56 ironzorg I was hoping I could make suggestions to whoever is in charge here :p
2020-05-29 15:02:43 @tomasino .gmi/.gemini is in the best practices doc, not the spec itself
2020-05-29 15:03:44 @tomasino ironzorg: solderpunk doesn't come in here much. Official chatter happens on the mailing list. This is informal talk and brainstorming stuff
2020-05-29 15:04:32 @tomasino i'd encourage you to share that thought with the list. :)
2020-05-29 15:04:59 cmccabe makeworld: my bad. i thought you were talking about a package for some kind of alternate firefox
2020-05-29 15:05:02 ironzorg alright
2020-05-29 15:11:07 ~tiwesdaeg I'm not in charge ;P
2020-05-29 15:11:30 ~tiwesdaeg I just thought an irc channel to talk about gemini stuff would be fun
2020-05-29 15:11:45 ironzorg the topic doesn't mention this is an unofficial channel, so users are bound to ask you things :p
2020-05-29 15:13:02 ~tiwesdaeg enthusiasts often denotes unofficial capacity
2020-05-29 15:14:43 ironzorg oh, I found the channel in https://gemini.circumlunar.space/docs/faq.txt that's why I thought soldier would be here
2020-05-29 15:16:07 ~tiwesdaeg I mean, I'd love if he hung out here more
2020-05-29 15:16:38 ~tiwesdaeg I feel like irc has a better pace for discussing development than a mailing list
2020-05-29 15:17:10 ironzorg I was surprised to see 50+ users here but only a few threads on the mailing list, comparatively
2020-05-29 15:17:27 ~tiwesdaeg we were like 10 users a few weeks ago
2020-05-29 15:17:47 ironzorg I heard about Gemini on lobsters I think
2020-05-29 15:18:04 ~tiwesdaeg then some articles popped up and now we have a million servers and clients
2020-05-29 15:21:51 ~tiwesdaeg yay, the cgi everywhere branch has merged with master on gemserv
2020-05-29 15:21:58 ~tiwesdaeg now I have to update all my servers
2020-05-29 16:07:36 @ben the mailing list is so busy tbh
2020-05-29 16:09:39 @tomasino yeah
2020-05-29 16:09:41 @tomasino pew pew pew
2020-05-29 16:17:40 ~tiwesdaeg I haven't even looked yet
2020-05-29 16:20:59 makeworld ironzorg: It looks like I'd need to write my code in Lua to make a Pandoc writer
2020-05-29 16:21:11 makeworld Which I don't know, and wouldn't be worth the effort to me
2020-05-29 16:21:41 makeworld Your best bet for now would be to convert to markdown using pandoc and then convert using md2gemini
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2020-05-29 21:35:36 bdju how can I link to a .txt file in the same directory as my index.gmi file?
2020-05-29 21:36:07 bdju I've attempted with something like => file.txt and it did not work
2020-05-29 21:36:24 styan "=> file.txt", "=> ./file.txt", or "=> /path/to/file.txt" should all work.
2020-05-29 21:37:02 bdju oh wow
2020-05-29 21:37:18 bdju it seems the problem is bombadillo then, I guess it does work via a web proxy
2020-05-29 21:38:36 styan If the file-name has characters that are invalid for a uri segment, then you might need to escape it.
2020-05-29 21:39:17 bdju it's just "test.txt"
2020-05-29 21:39:47 styan Then it seems like bombadillo is "bombing" on relative links :-)
2020-05-29 21:43:51 styan bdju: The issues seems to have been solved. https://tildegit.org/sloum/bombadillo/issues/163
2020-05-29 21:44:28 bdju oh, thank you for checking
2020-05-29 21:45:56 styan You are welcome, I am happy to help. :-)
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2020-05-29 23:07:45 makeworld Yeah, Bombadillo is somewhat broken right now unfortunately
2020-05-29 23:07:58 makeworld Once 2.3.1 comes out it should all be good
2020-05-29 23:08:42 lick ohhh it was a bug? i was wondering why my relitive links were shitting themselfs lol
2020-05-29 23:10:38 makeworld Yeah :/
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2020-05-30 09:42:19 epoch holy crap I just noticed how much space castor takes up
2020-05-30 09:42:34 epoch 321 MB atm
2020-05-30 09:44:02 epoch that's post-build ~/src/castor. For comparison, minetest is 135 MB
2020-05-30 09:45:32 epoch I'm thinking a littler harder of making my own graphical client.
2020-05-30 09:45:51 epoch probably C and xlib
2020-05-30 10:19:06 jan6 oh wow
2020-05-30 10:19:16 jan6 yeah that is massive!
2020-05-30 10:28:18 pentangle castor looks pretty nice
2020-05-30 10:28:50 pentangle weird that it takes up so much disk space
2020-05-30 10:28:55 epoch yeah, it is nice and I like it, just hadn't noticed the size before.
2020-05-30 10:30:19 epoch I'm gonna blame rust's build system storing a bunch of stuff in the dir the project is built in.
2020-05-30 10:31:13 epoch 302MB is target/release/deps
2020-05-30 10:31:42 epoch libgtk is kind in there
2020-05-30 10:32:14 epoch 46M libgtk[...].rlib
2020-05-30 10:32:25 epoch 28M libgtk[...].rmeta
2020-05-30 10:33:01 epoch might be able to strip and get it significantly smaller
2020-05-30 10:33:10 epoch rust might have a shitload of useful debug symbols by default
2020-05-30 10:34:56 epoch 7.6MB for libgtk[...].so in /usr/lib/x86_64blahblah/
2020-05-30 10:35:27 epoch which someone will probably say isn't a fair comparison for some reason if they care enough about rust possibly getting a bad rap
2020-05-30 10:35:33 epoch wrap?
2020-05-30 10:35:35 epoch hrm..
2020-05-30 10:36:46 epoch rap.
2020-05-30 11:04:58 jan6 lol
2020-05-30 11:05:01 jan6 bad rep
2020-05-30 11:05:11 jan6 rep(utation)
2020-05-30 11:16:00 epoch the one web result I found said "bad rep", while it makes sense, was usually considered a mispelling
2020-05-30 11:16:41 epoch when I've heard it the vowel has always sounded like an 'a'
2020-05-30 11:16:47 epoch which I why I didn't consider "rep"
2020-05-30 11:17:18 epoch I heard it from things about breaking laws, like cop shows or gangster movies
2020-05-30 11:17:33 epoch like a "rap sheet"
2020-05-30 11:17:42 epoch or "getting a bad rap"
2020-05-30 11:17:56 epoch where a
2020-05-30 11:18:16 epoch "rap" is the things claimed of you I guess
2020-05-30 11:20:59 ironzorg https://grammarist.com/usage/bad-rap/
2020-05-30 11:36:51 xq heyhey
2020-05-30 11:38:36 ⚡ xq started another Gemini Client after gurl
2020-05-30 11:38:53 xq Using Qt now and it looks like i passed the conman torture test already :)
2020-05-30 11:40:57 jan is there a tool for converting gophermaps to gmi-files? i know about md2gemini, but is these something like gophermap2gemini?
2020-05-30 11:57:25 epoch could probably be done with a line of sed, but I haven't seen it yet.
2020-05-30 11:58:50 jan would be great for converting existing content
2020-05-30 12:02:10 epoch I'll put it on my todo list.
2020-05-30 12:03:11 epoch g'night
2020-05-30 12:18:23 jan good night
2020-05-30 12:29:14 ironzorg do parsers assume that URLs in link lines do not contain whitespace (i.e. are URL encoded)?
2020-05-30 12:29:28 ironzorg I'm guessing yes, but the spec doesn't say
2020-05-30 12:33:30 ~tiwesdaeg epoch: are you talking about the build environment or the binary itself?
2020-05-30 12:33:36 ~tiwesdaeg in regards to castor
2020-05-30 12:33:54 ~tiwesdaeg my castor binary on netbsd is 5.6mb
2020-05-30 12:34:21 ironzorg another one, is "foo" rendered in the following case? ```abc\ndef\n```foo
2020-05-30 12:38:33 ironzorg another one, does "line beginning" mean absolutely no whitespace are allowed beforehand? It'd be convenient to be able to indent a list item with a couple spaces
2020-05-30 12:38:49 ironzorg if nobody knows, I'll email soldierpunk directly
2020-05-30 12:55:01 ~tiwesdaeg I think a space in a url line would be considered a break between the url and the link description according to the spec
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2020-05-30 12:57:42 ~tiwesdaeg so "=> gemini://domain.com/the gap/item.txt My Item" would be displayed as "gap/item.txt My Item" by a client
2020-05-30 12:57:49 ~tiwesdaeg and would be an invalid link
2020-05-30 12:59:49 ~tiwesdaeg I'm not sure how the clients are displaying or handling anything after ```
2020-05-30 13:00:02 ~tiwesdaeg it still seems like a work in progress
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2020-05-30 13:05:02 ~tiwesdaeg heya login
2020-05-30 13:05:59 login hey tiwesdaeg
2020-05-30 13:24:01 tastytea ironzorg: “A URI is composed from a limited set of characters consisting of digits, letters, and a few graphic symbols.” <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3986#section-2>
2020-05-30 13:25:20 tastytea I would think that “line beginning” means the very first character of the line.
2020-05-30 13:28:43 tastytea 5.3.2 of the spec explicitly states where whitespace is allowed.
2020-05-30 15:50:51 makeworld What is up with Petite Abeille on the mailing list
2020-05-30 15:54:35 bard with the garbled emails?
2020-05-30 15:55:09 bard if it's who I'm thinking of, aerc couldn't seem to display the emails properly so I had to pull them up in a webmail client
2020-05-30 15:55:40 bard nevermind, I'm thinking of someone else I think
2020-05-30 16:07:58 makeworld No I just mean the repeated attempts at extending Gemini
2020-05-30 16:14:15 ~tiwesdaeg some people just want the world
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2020-05-30 16:38:44 makeworld v2.3.1 of Bombadillo is ready to go btw, it just hasn't been released yet
2020-05-30 17:10:31 ironzorg tastytea: a URL is not a URI and that section doesn't specify whether the URL should be encoded, so we're back to my question
2020-05-30 17:10:57 ironzorg I'm sending an email directly to the author any way, to be sure
2020-05-30 17:28:00 tastytea ironzorg: URL is a subset of URI: <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3986#section-1.1.3>. Percent-encoding: <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3986#section-2.1>.
2020-05-30 17:46:27 admicos when did the mailing list get to 206 unread mails
2020-05-30 17:46:34 admicos i've only been away from email for what, two days?
2020-05-30 17:47:01 admicos (ps: does anyone here know of a good cli mail client, preferably with notification support)
2020-05-30 18:15:02 ironzorg admicos: Alot, Mutt, Pine
2020-05-30 18:15:13 ~tiwesdaeg neomutt
2020-05-30 18:23:38 kayw aerc?
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2020-05-30 20:30:17 @tomasino gophermap2gmi... i can do that. I have a gophermap2txt thing that's 90% there
2020-05-30 20:30:19 @tomasino gimme a min
2020-05-30 20:30:49 epoch ^ same situation I'm in.
2020-05-30 20:36:10 @tomasino https://github.com/jamestomasino/dotfiles-minimal/blob/master/bin/gophermap2gemini.awk
2020-05-30 20:36:14 @tomasino there ya go
2020-05-30 20:36:29 @tomasino just pipe the gophermap through that bad boy and get the gemini file on the other side
2020-05-30 20:36:54 @tomasino i'm not doing any code fencing with it, but it converts links for gopher https and telnet
2020-05-30 20:42:25 @tomasino jan ^
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2020-05-30 21:17:11 acdw nice awking tomasino
2020-05-30 21:18:58 @tomasino The gsub stuff can come out. That was from my gophermap parser where I was renumbering links to the footer
2020-05-30 21:23:34 @tomasino there, fixed
2020-05-30 21:24:22 @tomasino gonna play with code fencing now
2020-05-30 21:28:43 @tomasino there, now all type i lines are code fenced
2020-05-30 21:29:57 @tomasino i can write some exceptions for lines starting with # ## and ###, or *
2020-05-30 21:39:23 @tomasino and now headers and lists are exempted
2020-05-30 21:39:29 @tomasino la la la
2020-05-30 21:46:56 @tomasino okay, i now consider it "done"
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2020-05-31 04:22:23 jan thanks, tomasino! works perfectly :)
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2020-05-31 10:46:00 @tomasino Hooray
2020-05-31 12:10:34 ~tiwesdaeg I'm smashing solderpunk's python example client in to a CGI web proxy
2020-05-31 13:15:56 @tomasino noice
2020-05-31 13:20:01 ironzorg I've extended python-markdown to support Gemini output, no regex, a real markdown parser that supports extension, and pretty printed output!
2020-05-31 13:20:23 ironzorg if I'm not too lazy, I should soon add asciidoc support, and I'll be able to serve Github wiki over Gemini
2020-05-31 13:20:25 ironzorg pretty keen
2020-05-31 13:20:44 @tomasino brilliant
2020-05-31 13:22:37 ~tiwesdaeg https://www.libraryoferis.org/cgi-bin/gproxy.cgi?q=gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space
2020-05-31 13:22:44 ~tiwesdaeg it's kind of working
2020-05-31 13:25:12 @tomasino yeah
2020-05-31 13:25:23 @tomasino choking on port numbers in the path, but i can see black stuff if i remove those
2020-05-31 13:26:53 ~tiwesdaeg hehe
2020-05-31 13:27:14 ~tiwesdaeg I don't think the python example allowed for port numbers
2020-05-31 13:28:22 ~tiwesdaeg It doesn't seem to be able to handle links to anything but text/gemini
2020-05-31 13:31:58 ironzorg any idea why common font decorations are not supported? *bold* /italic/ _underline_ ?
2020-05-31 13:32:05 ironzorg s,supported,standard,
2020-05-31 13:34:17 ironzorg "it's a nightmare to parse when combined together" that's one reason I suppose
2020-05-31 13:43:45 ~tiwesdaeg ironzorg: in the gemini protocol?
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2020-05-31 14:16:35 @tomasino there's 30-40 posts on the topic in the mailing list archives
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2020-05-31 17:08:23 makeworld ironzorg: where's the code for your converter stuff?
2020-05-31 17:09:26 makeworld I made md2gemini so I'm interested in seeing it and maybe working it in
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2020-05-31 20:19:54 ironzorg makeworld: still on my system for now, I'll work on it next it and eventually publish it
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2020-06-01 00:51:03 lick are there any programs like makeworld's gemget, but they convert all links to be absolute?
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2020-06-01 10:16:06 epoch finally got around to making a subdomain and cert for gemini
2020-06-01 10:17:59 epoch but, I have no idea how to do SNI support
2020-06-01 10:27:06 ironzorg wow I didn't realise there was such a long thread about font decoration on the ML already
2020-06-01 10:27:13 ironzorg I should have checked before asking here :p
2020-06-01 10:35:58 epoch > the person posting to the mailing list using text/html emails
2020-06-01 10:36:22 epoch hrm... I /could/ be posting to the mailing list with text/gemini XD
2020-06-01 10:39:00 ironzorg epoch: how would you handle "tagging" text that is associated with a link? e.g. in text I usually do `foo[1] … ^[1]: https://…` but you can't inline links in gemini, right?
2020-06-01 10:39:46 epoch I'd probably just put the link in the middle of the text.
2020-06-01 10:39:48 ironzorg so you would end up with a list of links at the end of the email taking two lines per ([1]\n=> https://…), or placing the [1] in the link description… ?
2020-06-01 10:40:02 epoch if I wanted nice-looking paragraphs though
2020-06-01 10:40:03 ironzorg yes that I don't do because it breaks the reading flow
2020-06-01 10:40:27 epoch I'd do something like derp [n][n+1] and put them at the bottom of the page
2020-06-01 10:40:54 ironzorg yea but where do you put the [n] in relation with the link?
2020-06-01 10:41:17 epoch => $URL [1] $URL
2020-06-01 10:41:29 epoch right before it
2020-06-01 10:41:36 ironzorg yea, I mentioned that, not amazing :p
2020-06-01 10:41:55 epoch you can pick the visible text for the link
2020-06-01 10:42:13 epoch I think
2020-06-01 10:42:26 ironzorg ok you're assuming the email will be rendered, and not displayed as-is
2020-06-01 10:44:17 epoch depends on how people have their mail clients setup
2020-06-01 10:44:49 epoch my client wouldn't render it because I cbf to setup text/gemini being handed off back to localhost from my mail server
2020-06-01 10:53:40 epoch people seem to be misunderstanding the implications of data: URIs
2020-06-01 10:53:51 epoch they're still just links
2020-06-01 10:54:40 epoch <a href="data:image/png...">lolcat</a> is a link to a picture, but people seem to be thinking it'd somehow force gemini clients to implement it as an <img>
2020-06-01 10:56:32 epoch you /could/ bloat up a page indefinately, but there's not really a point because inline images aren't a thing in gemini
2020-06-01 11:04:56 epoch oh god. "I think it is completely reasonable to specify a set of allowed schemes [...]"
2020-06-01 11:05:01 epoch nope nope nope nope
2020-06-01 11:06:14 ironzorg where are you getting that from
2020-06-01 11:06:24 epoch mailing list
2020-06-01 11:06:52 epoch Sat, 30 May 2020
2020-06-01 11:06:58 epoch From: Thomas Karpiniec
2020-06-01 11:06:58 ironzorg right
2020-06-01 11:07:20 epoch I'm reading it in my mail client so I don't have a direct link to it.
2020-06-01 11:07:28 ironzorg no problems, thanks
2020-06-01 11:08:00 ironzorg it's inevitable when you come up with anything minimalistic, not everybody has the same vision of what consitutes minimalism
2020-06-01 11:10:04 epoch "So it might be prudent to state in the Gemini spec that
2020-06-01 11:10:24 epoch 1) urn: is not a valid URI type for links,[...]"
2020-06-01 11:10:34 epoch uhhhh. I'd prefer not.
2020-06-01 11:11:25 epoch maybe I want to link to urn:ietf:rfc:1918
2020-06-01 11:13:12 ironzorg it'd be so productive if soldierpunk was on here
2020-06-01 11:13:51 epoch If I care enough about these things I'll actually post to the mailing list I guess.
2020-06-01 11:14:49 ironzorg sometimes hashing things out with IM is better
2020-06-01 11:15:03 ironzorg plus it's not like there's a handful of users here, there are 50+ !
2020-06-01 11:15:23 epoch if solderpunk was going to be on an IRC it'd probably be sdf's
2020-06-01 11:30:06 ironzorg <div dir='auto'>I have a couple of silly ideas for extra formatting:<div dir="auto"><br></div>
2020-06-01 11:30:08 ironzorg :)
2020-06-01 12:00:13 @tomasino solderpunk has popped into IRC once or twice before. He does visit #gopher on SDF on rare occassion, but it's not a fun place for him. You can chat him up on fedi though
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2020-06-01 14:03:11 ironzorg I like that gemini supports comment blocks by default
2020-06-01 14:03:28 ironzorg ```
2020-06-01 14:03:30 ironzorg ``` This is a
2020-06-01 14:03:34 ironzorg ``` comments block
2020-06-01 14:03:37 ironzorg ```
2020-06-01 14:03:39 ironzorg :)
2020-06-01 14:07:15 @tomasino that'll end up halfway read by screen readers
2020-06-01 14:07:58 ironzorg why is that? none of those lines should be rendered
2020-06-01 14:09:46 @tomasino the first ``` of a block is pre-spec becoming alt text
2020-06-01 14:09:49 ~tiwesdaeg I thought any text after ``` would be ignored
2020-06-01 14:10:17 @tomasino if your client doesn't display alt text, you can ignore it
2020-06-01 14:10:34 @tomasino but screen readers and accessible clients can pull the alt info now from the opening one
2020-06-01 14:10:56 @tomasino there's an option for it in bombadillo already if you want to test it out
2020-06-01 14:11:08 ironzorg tiwesdaeg: the whole lines must be discarded :)
2020-06-01 14:11:19 ~tiwesdaeg wouldn't it be something like ```\n ``` alt text\n This is read by a screen reader\n ``` more alt text\n ```\n
2020-06-01 14:11:28 ~tiwesdaeg oops
2020-06-01 14:11:36 ~tiwesdaeg my escapes escaped ;P
2020-06-01 14:11:48 ~tiwesdaeg I was trying not to flood the channel
2020-06-01 14:13:08 @tomasino there was back and forth about which ``` the alt would live on. current working consensus is the opening one and nothing after the closing one would matter. But it's not been rubber stamped by solderpunk yet
2020-06-01 14:14:58 @tomasino for search engines, if alt text appears on the opening of a preformatted block it should use the alt and ignore the block contents. If there is no alt it should assume it can spider it. screen readers can prompt with alt and the user can decide whether to skip or parse the block
2020-06-01 14:15:08 ironzorg I got an email from soldierpunk yesterday saying none of the text following backticks matter, it's all stripped away
2020-06-01 14:15:18 ironzorg unless I don't understand what's being discussed :p
2020-06-01 14:15:58 @tomasino if you are working in a visual client, then you can strip it away. I'm just letting you know that it's an active discussion to use that place for accessibility and will likely be in the spec soon
2020-06-01 14:16:25 ironzorg ok here's the exact quote:
2020-06-01 14:16:26 ironzorg The current spec is pretty clear that preformatted toggle lines should
2020-06-01 14:16:29 ironzorg not be displayed to the user. So, any text after opening or closing
2020-06-01 14:16:31 ironzorg ```s is discarded. There is an ongoing discussion whether or not some
2020-06-01 14:16:33 ironzorg kind of semantics should be attached to any such text, to allow things
2020-06-01 14:16:35 ironzorg like specifying alt-text for ASCII art, but nothing has been officially
2020-06-01 14:16:37 ironzorg adopted yet.
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2020-06-01 15:49:52 jan6 DISPLAYED
2020-06-01 15:50:03 jan6 but if it's read aloud, for example, it'd be used ;P
2020-06-01 15:57:19 @tomasino gemini://tilde.black/users/fox/journal/20200601-accessibility.gmi
2020-06-01 16:09:04 acdw great write up tomasino!
2020-06-01 16:42:59 @tomasino Thanks
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2020-06-01 18:41:52 dkibi is ``` without alt text assumed to not be ascii art?
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2020-06-01 18:59:22 dkibi another question? how are people creating atom feeds? gmi is simple enough to write it in a text editor, but I'm not sure I want to manualy edit an atom feed
2020-06-01 19:01:39 dkibi ah ok you talk about this (my first question) in the text anyway
2020-06-01 19:06:16 wangofett dkibi: https://feedgen.kiesow.be/ is pretty straightforward, if you've got all the deps.
2020-06-01 19:06:52 wangofett But TBH it's not *really* that hard to edit a feed, especially if you just use some comments for a template block.
2020-06-01 19:10:51 @tomasino dkibi: in my write up i suggest that ``` followed by nothing be treated as if the content in the block is searchable and readable by a screen reader. AKA, no alt text was necessary because it contains text content
2020-06-01 19:11:16 @tomasino and now i caught up on YOUR messages and see you already saw that
2020-06-01 19:11:18 @tomasino cool cool
2020-06-01 19:11:45 @tomasino i haven't bothered with an atom feed yet. I'm enjoying doing everything painstakingly by hand for the moment
2020-06-01 19:18:15 dkibi I use hakyll for my personal webpage, it's neat but quite complicated to use. I thought at first to just this too (maybe even integrating generating gmi content with the script for my http page), but I like the idea of doing things by hand
2020-06-01 19:19:07 dkibi wangofett: oh this looks nice, it's even packaged on my distribution. so maybe having a small python script that is called from a makefile is a good idea
2020-06-01 19:22:24 @tomasino i wrote a shell thing for gopher to do it, but here i feel like it's overkill. Make on its own could probably do it parsing filenames and timestamps
2020-06-01 19:22:42 @tomasino but today i have an actual goal
2020-06-01 19:22:48 @tomasino gotta get gemini running on cosmic.voyage
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2020-06-01 20:17:09 ~tiwesdaeg got the gemini ios client installed on my work phone
2020-06-01 20:17:39 ~tiwesdaeg the phone is great for browsing word wrapped text
2020-06-01 20:21:34 @tomasino that's awesome
2020-06-01 20:21:38 @tomasino i want a proper android client
2020-06-01 20:26:57 ~tiwesdaeg me too
2020-06-01 20:27:10 ~tiwesdaeg I don't carry the work phone around much
2020-06-01 20:28:06 @tomasino loggin' bugs in jetforce like a pro
2020-06-01 20:29:48 acdw tomasino: I too would love an android client. tried the one linked wherever and it wasn't quite as nice as the portal.mozz.us bookmarked on my homescreen
2020-06-01 20:30:23 acdw I just implemented (VERY basic) history in bollux! Which I'm happy about
2020-06-01 20:31:19 @tomasino i've been using mozz portal and it makes me sad
2020-06-01 20:31:25 @tomasino it fails pretty much everything in the client torture test
2020-06-01 20:31:36 @tomasino but i can read stuff, so....
2020-06-01 20:31:38 ⚡ tomasino shrugs
2020-06-01 20:31:51 @tomasino huzzah for bollux!
2020-06-01 20:32:09 @tomasino i figured out jetforce doesn't know what to do with %20 in urls
2020-06-01 20:32:10 acdw :)
2020-06-01 20:32:16 @tomasino logged the issue
2020-06-01 20:32:43 acdw oh yes, I tried that torture test with the poral and yeah
2020-06-01 20:32:46 acdw it was a good laugh
2020-06-01 20:32:50 @tomasino :D
2020-06-01 20:37:54 admicos man i should continue working on moonlander sometime
2020-06-01 20:39:12 ~tiwesdaeg you should adapt it to android ;P
2020-06-01 20:40:04 admicos i don't think android supports gtk
2020-06-01 20:40:14 admicos would be better to just rewrite it in android-land
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2020-06-01 20:40:29 ~tiwesdaeg currently, we have many desktop and command client clients
2020-06-01 20:40:35 ~tiwesdaeg only one mobile client on ios
2020-06-01 20:40:54 ~tiwesdaeg brain slow s/client/line
2020-06-01 20:41:04 admicos i don't know why, but i feel like android dev is unneccesarily complex
2020-06-01 20:41:30 admicos except for flutter, but that's dart, and... it's dart.
2020-06-01 20:42:13 ~tiwesdaeg yeah, it never seemed newbie friendly
2020-06-01 20:42:34 ⚡ tiwesdaeg is forever a newbie
2020-06-01 20:42:35 @tomasino maybe i'll do some stupid vue-native js crap and make a client
2020-06-01 20:42:36 @tomasino ugh
2020-06-01 20:42:41 @tomasino :P
2020-06-01 20:42:53 @tomasino okay gemini://cosmic.voyage
2020-06-01 20:42:59 @tomasino works except for ships with a space in their name
2020-06-01 20:43:12 @tomasino gemini://cosmic.voyage/ships/Melchizedek/
2020-06-01 20:43:12 ~tiwesdaeg what server?
2020-06-01 20:43:23 @tomasino jetforce
2020-06-01 20:43:28 ~tiwesdaeg how did you handle that on gopher?
2020-06-01 20:43:34 @tomasino gopher supports spaces
2020-06-01 20:43:36 @tomasino :)
2020-06-01 20:43:56 @tomasino tab separated paths. spaces in the URL just work as spaces
2020-06-01 20:44:08 ~tiwesdaeg oh yeah
2020-06-01 20:44:14 @tomasino brb, getting kid to bed
2020-06-01 20:44:29 ~tiwesdaeg I've been playing with http stuff today, so I was thinking in URL
2020-06-01 20:45:17 ~tiwesdaeg maybe you need some cgi
2020-06-01 20:46:08 admicos oh wow, firefox supports custom protocol handlers
2020-06-01 20:46:10 admicos https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Mozilla/Add-ons/WebExtensions/manifest.json/protocol_handlers
2020-06-01 20:46:31 admicos thinking about a gemini extension for firefox
2020-06-01 20:46:33 ~tiwesdaeg Escanaba files work, but I hate spaces in folders and filenames ;P
2020-06-01 20:47:02 ~tiwesdaeg the gopher one needed some local binary
2020-06-01 20:47:19 ~tiwesdaeg that you had to compile to go along with the plugin
2020-06-01 20:47:22 ~tiwesdaeg no idea why
2020-06-01 20:47:43 admicos oh yeah
2020-06-01 20:47:47 admicos firefox cannot do raw tcp
2020-06-01 20:47:55 admicos *sigh*
2020-06-01 20:48:18 ~tiwesdaeg umm, maybe some sort of plugin front in for a web proxy?
2020-06-01 20:48:20 ~tiwesdaeg I dunno
2020-06-01 20:48:29 admicos yeah
2020-06-01 20:48:32 admicos but that would be cheating
2020-06-01 20:49:06 ~tiwesdaeg it would make it "easier" for someone who has no clue what's going on, but just enough to understand what gemini is
2020-06-01 20:49:20 admicos yeah i know
2020-06-01 20:50:10 @tomasino castor registers the protocol nicely. I appreciate having a handler
2020-06-01 20:50:44 @tomasino https://github.com/michael-lazar/jetforce/issues/29
2020-06-01 20:51:09 ~tiwesdaeg tomasino: if you make an adroid client, display the link names only, not the URL as well
2020-06-01 20:51:22 ~tiwesdaeg the ios one does that and it looks like a mess
2020-06-01 20:51:35 @tomasino i'd want to make them inspectible. Maybe long-press on them or something
2020-06-01 20:51:49 @tomasino but i probably won't bother cause i have not the first clue how to deal with TLS
2020-06-01 20:51:53 ~tiwesdaeg also, I'm not sure what I feel about how people handle the ``` text
2020-06-01 20:52:08 @tomasino did you read my thing tiwesdaeg ?
2020-06-01 20:52:08 ~tiwesdaeg I've been using it so that the ascii art is lined up nicely
2020-06-01 20:52:16 @tomasino about ```
2020-06-01 20:52:17 ~tiwesdaeg I guess not ;P
2020-06-01 20:52:34 @tomasino gemini://tilde.black/users/fox/journal/20200601-accessibility.gmi
2020-06-01 20:53:55 ~tiwesdaeg yeah, I'm totally down with alt text
2020-06-01 20:54:20 admicos ouch, moonlander doesn't load your url
2020-06-01 20:54:32 admicos invelid certificate, apparently
2020-06-01 20:54:34 admicos wonder what's wrong
2020-06-01 20:54:39 ~tiwesdaeg I was complaining about how some browsers put pre-formatted text in a box
2020-06-01 20:55:06 ~tiwesdaeg that graphical windows client with the cool backgrounds does it
2020-06-01 20:56:55 ~tiwesdaeg anyway, it messes with using ascii art as a way of displaying inline imagery and design that goes with your gemini page
2020-06-01 20:57:23 ~tiwesdaeg like on gemini://tilde.pink
2020-06-01 20:57:29 ~tiwesdaeg I use this
2020-06-01 20:57:29 @tomasino It's only thinking about it as code, not just preformatted
2020-06-01 20:57:31 ~tiwesdaeg -=News=-
2020-06-01 20:57:41 ~tiwesdaeg to denote the enw section
2020-06-01 20:59:06 @tomasino the windows client seems to have pulled a bunch of formatting from github styled markdown stuff. it's cool. Not my style, but that's part of the charm of gemini
2020-06-01 21:01:06 ~tiwesdaeg have you thought about a ships.cgi that takes the links with spaces and outputs text/gemini?
2020-06-01 21:01:47 @tomasino seems like more work than is necessary
2020-06-01 21:01:54 @tomasino once the server handles spaces it'll "just work"
2020-06-01 21:02:12 ~tiwesdaeg is the jetforce author working on it?
2020-06-01 21:02:27 @tomasino i'm generating this stuff in the world's laziest way anyway
2020-06-01 21:02:38 @tomasino lemme get it into git and i'll show you
2020-06-01 21:02:56 ~tiwesdaeg my dumb proxy is slowly moving ahead
2020-06-01 21:03:16 ~tiwesdaeg I was working on ports in URLs when I got mad at it
2020-06-01 21:03:58 @tomasino https://tildegit.org/cosmic/cosmic/src/branch/master/bin/gemini
2020-06-01 21:04:00 ~tiwesdaeg I wrote some simple if statements with string splits that work on their own, but something isn't working right when it's all together
2020-06-01 21:04:40 @tomasino and the awk script it references is a modified version of that utility i shared on the mailing list. Here's the cosmic version: https://tildegit.org/cosmic/cosmic/src/branch/master/awk/gophermap2gemini.awk
2020-06-01 21:05:06 ~tiwesdaeg so you're maintaining an almost duplicate set of files?
2020-06-01 21:06:14 ~tiwesdaeg for libraryoferis.org all I copied over was the cgi scripts I made for gopher, changed a couple things like links
2020-06-01 21:06:40 ~tiwesdaeg so web/gopher/gemini are all sharing the same database and files
2020-06-01 21:07:53 ~tiwesdaeg awk scripts look a lot like shell scripts
2020-06-01 21:09:04 @tomasino awk is really friendly when you don't have to 1-line it
2020-06-01 21:09:26 @tomasino and yeah, i dupe stuff for gemini & html as well
2020-06-01 21:09:49 @tomasino it takes up next to nothing on the disk since it's all just plain text
2020-06-01 21:10:08 @tomasino gopher is master. it gets backed up in git nightly
2020-06-01 21:10:16 @tomasino the rest just generates every 15 minutes
2020-06-01 21:11:36 @tomasino gopher itself makes heavy use of partials & inline scripting that gophernicus offers. Here's the root gophermap: https://tildegit.org/cosmic/cosmic-backup/src/branch/master/gopher/gophermap
2020-06-01 21:13:50 ~tiwesdaeg the good old = lines
2020-06-01 21:14:29 @tomasino they're really handy
2020-06-01 21:15:04 ~tiwesdaeg does gophernicus allow other filenames for gophermaps now?
2020-06-01 21:15:35 ~tiwesdaeg I haven't been following it for a while
2020-06-01 21:17:19 ~tiwesdaeg tomasino: I brought up a user in honeypot that has ~black accounts
2020-06-01 21:17:58 @tomasino Which one?
2020-06-01 21:18:58 @tomasino I have neutered a few so far
2020-06-01 22:05:46 makeworld dkibi: Most people use Gemfeed to generate Atom feeds I believe
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2020-06-01 22:21:38 jan6 admicos: @firefox, you can do like overbite-nx, with a native component, and a lil addon ;P
2020-06-01 22:22:03 jan6 hummm, websocket <-> gemini proxy? ;P
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2020-06-01 23:03:46 makeworld Test
2020-06-01 23:13:23 makeworld Let me know if you can see this
2020-06-01 23:13:51 styan makeworld: I can see that.
2020-06-01 23:14:06 makeworld Great thanks
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2020-06-01 23:49:34 @tomasino You are seen
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2020-06-02 08:23:02 dkibi makeworld: oh thank nice, that's pretty much what I was about to build myself %%
2020-06-02 08:56:50 ironzorg what are the chances that the markup spec is going to end up like a dumb clone of Mardown, over time and spec addendums?
2020-06-02 09:13:14 epoch the text/gemini format could be frozen whenever they feel like and just say "if you want markdown, send it as text/markdown"
2020-06-02 09:14:04 @tomasino unlikely ironzorg
2020-06-02 09:14:10 epoch https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7763
2020-06-02 09:14:36 ⚡ epoch double-checks that this rfc isn't an april 1st joke
2020-06-02 09:14:42 epoch March 2016. nope.
2020-06-02 09:16:56 ironzorg tomasino: Markdown is already pretty good for writing readble documents without any post-processing, and fairly minimal in my opinion, so I'm concerned that the line-oriented paradigm in Gemini is going to hold users back from using it to write their documents
2020-06-02 09:17:00 epoch how many different mime-types will gemini clients want to implement built-in?
2020-06-02 09:17:19 ironzorg and in an attempt to satisfy those users, the Gemini spec is going to tend towards Markdown, except slightly different
2020-06-02 09:17:31 dkibi doesn't markdown suffer a bit of the huge number of extensions?
2020-06-02 09:17:52 epoch ^ yes
2020-06-02 09:17:56 ironzorg yes it does, but Gemini is very minialist at the moment
2020-06-02 09:18:00 ironzorg m
2020-06-02 09:18:27 dkibi I personally don't care how many features text/gemini picks up, as long as interpretation of it stays mostly consistent
2020-06-02 09:18:43 ironzorg just wondering where the spec is going, and if it's not going to move forward any more I just won't be able to justify using it :/
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2020-06-02 09:19:30 ironzorg not being able to inline links is already impacting how users write, because they can't inline them seamlessly
2020-06-02 09:19:49 ironzorg not being able to emphasise on some words as well
2020-06-02 09:21:14 epoch I would have been fine for text/gemini to be pretty much text/plain, BUT WITH LINKS
2020-06-02 09:22:20 ironzorg I'm still not sure soldierpunk sees Gemini as a text-first language :p
2020-06-02 09:28:12 epoch well, what are some other formats we could serve to make hyperlinked document systems with?
2020-06-02 09:28:22 epoch application/latex
2020-06-02 09:28:50 epoch pdfs can have clickable links, right?
2020-06-02 09:29:48 epoch as long as your document viewer knows to send the URLs it opens to a specific program that knows how to do the network part...
2020-06-02 09:29:59 epoch then launch what it receives based on the received mime-type
2020-06-02 09:30:11 epoch then it doesn't really matter which protocol or file format used?
2020-06-02 09:30:53 epoch inb4 someone makes .docx gemini site
2020-06-02 09:30:56 @tomasino gemini's one required mime type is opinionated and seeks simplicity and to limit extensibility. markdown was a major inspiration, but does far more than was wanted.
2020-06-02 09:31:13 @tomasino it will not grow much more than it is currently
2020-06-02 09:31:31 @tomasino https://lists.orbitalfox.eu/archives/gemini/2019/000003.html
2020-06-02 09:31:44 @tomasino this is the start of the thread of doom about bullets and preformatted text
2020-06-02 09:31:50 ironzorg I hope the spec isn't going to be hard-frozen every three months, that slows things down considerably especially with an active community
2020-06-02 09:31:56 epoch which is good, though a slightly more generic name might've been nice. text/hypertext? heh
2020-06-02 09:32:29 epoch I guess a more generic name couldn't be as flexible
2020-06-02 09:32:31 ironzorg oh I tried reading, the reflow threads, but realised I only had 20 min not 2h :p
2020-06-02 09:32:54 @tomasino there's only been one freeze so far
2020-06-02 09:33:01 ironzorg right
2020-06-02 09:33:22 ironzorg my hope for Gemini is that it sits exactly between plain text and Markdown, that would be great along with the protocol
2020-06-02 09:35:55 epoch oh. I'm going to see how the "info" format works.
2020-06-02 09:36:25 @tomasino https://lists.orbitalfox.eu/archives/gemini/2020/000444.html
2020-06-02 09:36:37 @tomasino here's a literal question about markdown, followed by solderpunk announcing the freeze and why
2020-06-02 09:38:04 @tomasino the official spec freeze announcement here: https://lists.orbitalfox.eu/archives/gemini/2020/000463.html
2020-06-02 09:40:07 ironzorg Text Junior looks very similar
2020-06-02 09:53:13 epoch hrm.. firefox is opening castor for some reason when I give it a gemini link.
2020-06-02 09:54:41 @tomasino it registers the gemini protocol when you install it
2020-06-02 09:54:49 @tomasino you can change it to another app in settings -> general
2020-06-02 09:54:57 epoch it isn't listed in there.
2020-06-02 09:55:01 epoch I think.
2020-06-02 09:55:28 epoch yeah. it isn't there.
2020-06-02 09:55:45 @tomasino https://ttm.sh/Qbg.png
2020-06-02 09:55:51 @tomasino filter perhaps?
2020-06-02 09:55:53 epoch it might be my firefox is attempting to push it out to xdg-open or something?
2020-06-02 09:56:16 epoch yeah, I typed "gemini" in that box, didn't show up
2020-06-02 09:57:14 @tomasino that IS weird
2020-06-02 09:57:16 @tomasino magic castor
2020-06-02 09:57:43 epoch launching a gemini uri with xdg-open is using castor
2020-06-02 10:04:58 epoch I could override it probably with about:config settings
2020-06-02 10:06:01 epoch I don't have firefox doing a "dunno what it is, let's just pass it to xdg-open" because wtf:derp gave an error page
2020-06-02 10:14:23 epoch alright, I think xdg-open was attempting to pass it to firefox, then firefox was using the .desktop file that castor puts into ~/.local/share/applications
2020-06-02 10:16:26 @tomasino ahh, that makes sense
2020-06-02 10:16:36 @tomasino it has to fight bombadillo on my system
2020-06-02 10:16:41 @tomasino so i guess that means it prompts
2020-06-02 10:16:47 epoch not sure how firefox knows where castor is though
2020-06-02 10:19:46 ⚡ epoch greps "Castor.desktop
2020-06-02 10:20:14 epoch nowhere in ~/.mozilla/firefox
2020-06-02 10:20:19 epoch :/
2020-06-02 10:25:18 epoch stopped firefox. moved Castor.desktop to Derp.desktop
2020-06-02 10:25:23 epoch started firefox.
2020-06-02 10:25:32 epoch firefox doesn't know how to use gemini links anymore.
2020-06-02 10:25:47 epoch so, it wasn't just checking ~/.local/share/applications on startup and keeping a list in-memory
2020-06-02 10:26:00 epoch and it doesn't store the name of the .desktop file in any files in its config dir...
2020-06-02 10:26:04 epoch so... wtf?
2020-06-02 10:27:44 epoch share/applications/mimeinfo.cache:x-scheme-handler/gemini=Castor.desktop;
2020-06-02 10:27:46 epoch there it is.
2020-06-02 10:28:08 epoch so, it /is/ xdg-open doing it then falling back to firefox if castor is missing probably
2020-06-02 10:30:17 epoch alright, so, updating /that/ file will get firefox to magically know what to do with a uri scheme it would otherwise not know about
2020-06-02 10:30:31 epoch without firefox having to be configured specifically to handle it
2020-06-02 10:31:31 epoch and the x-uri-scheme/merp doesn't have to be in the .desktop file for it to be passed to it.
2020-06-02 10:31:45 epoch so you only have to add a line to that one place pointing at your own .desktop file in the same dir.
2020-06-02 10:33:34 epoch but if you don't put it into the .desktop, if the cache gets regenerated it'll probably lose that handler
2020-06-02 11:36:13 @tomasino interesting and weird behavior
2020-06-02 11:39:50 @tomasino i like acdw's bollux client. it's nice on ubuntu
2020-06-02 11:39:56 @tomasino doesn't work on openbsd, sadly
2020-06-02 11:42:27 ironzorg has anybody made a Gemini search engine yet? :)
2020-06-02 11:42:40 @tomasino there are 2
2020-06-02 11:42:48 ironzorg nice
2020-06-02 11:42:50 @tomasino links to both on the gemini link in the topic
2020-06-02 11:43:24 @tomasino i've noly used GUS so far
2020-06-02 11:43:27 @tomasino haven't tried Houston
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2020-06-02 13:06:35 ~tiwesdaeg tomasino: I'm getting some iconv error when I run it on netbsd
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2020-06-02 14:10:08 @tomasino Sames
2020-06-02 14:35:12 ~tiwesdaeg bombadillo has a big update
2020-06-02 14:35:34 ~tiwesdaeg you can even turn on block quote meta text display
2020-06-02 14:36:59 ~tiwesdaeg sloum said he was going to take a break on gemini updates for a bit and wait for the chaos in the mailing list to die down a bit
2020-06-02 14:49:49 kayw the mailing list hasn't been the best thing to read lately
2020-06-02 14:51:29 ironzorg what's happening down there, I haven't gone through the long chains
2020-06-02 14:56:57 ~tiwesdaeg just a bunch of wild west idea zooming about
2020-06-02 15:05:35 ironzorg someone has already forked it (Mercury) https://portal.mozz.us/gemini/gemini.circumlunar.space/users/solderpunk/cornedbeef/the-mercury-protocol.gmi
2020-06-02 15:07:13 kayw solderpunk made both gemini and mercury
2020-06-02 15:07:22 ironzorg yea just realised
2020-06-02 15:07:25 ironzorg if you write an article, sign your name and date it
2020-06-02 15:07:48 makeworld The name is in the URL
2020-06-02 15:07:57 ~tiwesdaeg solderpunk is the new google?
2020-06-02 15:08:06 makeworld But yeah, the date should be there
2020-06-02 15:08:15 ~tiwesdaeg put out two competing technologies and see which ones survives
2020-06-02 15:08:27 ironzorg the URL is metadata, an article should have the author's name and date at the minimum
2020-06-02 15:08:42 ironzorg I liked that TLS was mandatory
2020-06-02 15:11:03 ~tiwesdaeg it hasn't really hindered people from making a bunch of servers and clients
2020-06-02 15:15:34 jan6 lol
2020-06-02 15:15:59 jan6 tls being mandatory is annoying, but from security perspective, a very good idea
2020-06-02 15:17:27 jan6 being plaintext-only is..not exactly good
2020-06-02 15:18:05 wangofett well, in particular it's good when it comes to eavesdropping/monitoring. I guess it's also good from an authentication perspective.
2020-06-02 15:18:23 jan6 authentication is possible to workaround
2020-06-02 15:18:52 jan6 like pgp, where you hide your key in an image, for verification, and plaintext-sign the pages
2020-06-02 15:19:18 jan6 or speak out and provide an audio file where you read out the public key or whatnot
2020-06-02 15:19:31 jan6 but snooping is still a thing....
2020-06-02 15:20:29 ironzorg what if I'm at home and distributing files on a trusted network
2020-06-02 15:20:52 ironzorg was making TLS mandatory guided solely by the security incensitve?
2020-06-02 15:20:59 ironzorg incentive
2020-06-02 15:21:49 wgreenhouse it makes clients a lot simpler if they assume TLS+TOFU and don't have to make the complex decisions about what to tell the user that current web browsers do (lock, no lock, crossed-out lock, etc.)
2020-06-02 15:22:29 wgreenhouse and explicitly tolerating the TOFU self-signed option makes this a lot less terrible on the server-difficulty side
2020-06-02 15:22:45 jan6 I like optional tls
2020-06-02 15:22:56 jan6 but not forced plaintext
2020-06-02 15:23:36 jan6 my suggestion would be the *server* has to support tls, but the client part is optional
2020-06-02 15:23:37 ironzorg interesting
2020-06-02 15:23:55 jan6 so if you have a client that's capable of tls, you will be able to use it ALWAYS
2020-06-02 15:24:05 jan6 but you can also use an insecure client if you want
2020-06-02 15:24:21 jan6 I see no downside to this
2020-06-02 15:25:02 jan6 just ask the clients to all clearly mention that in their helptext, manpages, and welcome screens if there's any, and I see no downsides ;P
2020-06-02 15:25:27 wgreenhouse hm, I don't think that's a distinction that makes sense. who would the insecure client talk to if all gemini servers that exist automatically require at least a self-signed tls cert to run?
2020-06-02 15:26:15 jan6 also something that seems to be overlooked, is that versioning exists, you can have different gemini versions
2020-06-02 15:26:35 jan6 even parallel, if wanted
2020-06-02 15:26:50 jan6 which is something I suggested, but not sure if got a response, too much mail noise
2020-06-02 15:27:25 ironzorg wgreenhouse: I think they meant that the server has to support TLS but the client ultimately decides if the session uses it?
2020-06-02 15:27:27 jan6 could have periodic stable "releases" of the spec, and an "unstable" one which can change in any way, at any time, and good ideas can get merged to stable
2020-06-02 15:27:57 wgreenhouse ironzorg: I see. hmm.
2020-06-02 15:28:01 jan6 I meant that the server supports both tls and plaintext, and the client decides which one to use, yes
2020-06-02 15:28:20 jan6 could have plaintext version only serve "please use tls, no plaintext for you" pages ;p
2020-06-02 15:28:35 jan6 nobody's telling you have to have SAME content on both ;P
2020-06-02 15:29:00 wgreenhouse yeah I guess can see wanting a scary knob on the client for the case where you know the session is otherwise in an encrypted tunnel (ssh port forwarding, .onion, whatever)
2020-06-02 15:29:12 jan6 that's one case
2020-06-02 15:29:23 jan6 another is writing clients in languages where ssl is tricky
2020-06-02 15:29:52 jan6 like if you wanted to write a client in handwritten assembly code, or some other thing like that
2020-06-02 15:29:56 wgreenhouse yeah. requiring modern TLS will likely exclude people from writing a gemini client for plan9 for instance :D
2020-06-02 15:31:24 jan6 also I'd like if tls 1.2 was required support, with version above that reccommended, but not required, which would be nice, since tls1.3 is a lot trickier and basically supported on stuff other than openssl apparently
2020-06-02 15:31:29 jan6 *unsupported
2020-06-02 15:32:05 jan6 so afaik, iirc, right now you could have a gemini server that only uses tls 1.3, just some clients would error out
2020-06-02 15:52:31 makeworld I like that TLS is required for everything
2020-06-02 15:52:46 makeworld It's a different sort of security paradigm, and it's interesting
2020-06-02 16:12:39 makeworld Just a heads up, I changed my site cert so you may have to delete the cached in your bombadillo config
2020-06-02 16:26:59 ⚡ jan6 would seriously love if client-side tls was optional, not aware of any way to "ignore" the tls part without full-on tls library/utility
2020-06-02 16:27:38 ironzorg you could connect to a proxy that supports TLS :)
2020-06-02 16:32:31 jan6 sure, sure
2020-06-02 16:33:01 jan6 you could also make a proxy that allows websocket connections and make a proper browser client that uses websockets instead of normal sockets
2020-06-02 16:33:24 ironzorg we don't say the w-word here
2020-06-02 16:33:41 jan6 websocket is the only w-word I said ;P
2020-06-02 16:35:04 jan6 I mean, it's always possible to have different building blocks, write the tls part in C, and call that from whatever other thing... but that's just an imperfect workaround...
2020-06-02 16:35:47 jan6 I see literally no actual downsides to not requiring tls connections, because the server itself can refuse them if the person deems it a bad idea ;P
2020-06-02 16:42:07 wgreenhouse imho there's no sin for a client to use "openssl s_client" or stunnel or whathaveyou for its tls clients
2020-06-02 16:42:16 wgreenhouse tls connections, even
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2020-06-02 17:02:38 @julienxx Hello I’m back online! Feels good :)
2020-06-02 17:08:21 jan6 yay
2020-06-02 17:09:27 kayw wb
2020-06-02 17:12:02 jan6 missed a bit of stuff as expected, most lately some of us finding mercury protocol which seems worse than gemini in about half the ways, and me yelling out how cool it'd be if gemini servers would support both tls and plaintext, and the client could choose either, and whatnot other stuffs, normal stuffs
2020-06-02 17:16:51 makeworld I would hesitate to call mercury a full protocol yet, it's just an idea
2020-06-02 17:17:27 @tomasino welcome back julienxx
2020-06-02 17:17:52 @tomasino it was a moment of doubt from solderpunk
2020-06-02 17:17:55 @tomasino mercury that is
2020-06-02 17:18:21 @tomasino looks like jetforce is getting a patch
2020-06-02 17:18:46 @tomasino https://github.com/michael-lazar/jetforce/commit/9cc4a320c2254ba72f500961cb59c27edb9280cc
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2020-06-02 17:25:10 makeworld Looks good
2020-06-02 18:06:38 @julienxx Yeah that’s how I read the mercury post too, with a lot of people trying to turn gemini into the web I can understand
2020-06-02 18:06:59 @julienxx (On the ML)
2020-06-02 18:39:06 makeworld Hey I finally put my first real gemlog post up
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2020-06-02 18:58:42 acdw Hello all
2020-06-02 18:58:48 lick hi
2020-06-02 18:59:42 acdw What's doing?
2020-06-02 19:15:09 kayw i have two posts on my gemlog so far, and i just started it yesterday
2020-06-02 19:15:23 kayw they're not long, but they're something
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2020-06-02 19:17:37 @tomasino yay content!
2020-06-02 19:21:28 kayw i should probably announce my site on the mailing list
2020-06-02 19:23:55 @tomasino probably. :)
2020-06-02 19:24:09 @julienxx Hey acdw 👋
2020-06-02 19:24:46 @tomasino aww, and acdw is gone again
2020-06-02 19:24:58 @tomasino i had something important to tell them about... the client maybe?
2020-06-02 19:25:00 @tomasino what was it
2020-06-02 19:25:09 @tomasino oh! not working on BSD cause of stuffs
2020-06-02 19:25:22 @tomasino was gonna offer them a spot on ~black to work on cross-platformitude
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2020-06-02 19:41:43 kayw i just tried to add tildegit to authy and got konpeito as the logo that they auto-detect
2020-06-02 19:46:08 @tomasino haha
2020-06-02 19:46:09 @tomasino awesome
2020-06-02 19:46:31 @tomasino konpeito seems down atm
2020-06-02 19:46:38 @tomasino i know cat's working on that
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2020-06-02 20:45:36 @tomasino makeworld: gemini://tilde.black/users/fox/journal/20200602-re-replies.gmi
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2020-06-02 21:43:56 makeworld tomasino: Hmm, I see your point. I would want to remove nasty people from my replies as well. I guess with the system I advocated, their reply would be auto-added but you could always remove it yourself. Or it could be on a separate page. But still I get what you meant
2020-06-02 21:43:59 makeworld *mean
2020-06-02 21:44:17 @tomasino it's an easy channel for abuse too
2020-06-02 21:44:30 @tomasino but mostly it's just not relevant most of the time
2020-06-02 21:44:37 @tomasino you want threads on conversations
2020-06-02 21:45:17 makeworld I mean I see this as a way to maintain threads
2020-06-02 21:45:20 makeworld But yeah
2020-06-02 21:46:00 @tomasino i think what you did in your last post is the best method
2020-06-02 21:46:02 @tomasino manual, but great
2020-06-02 21:46:06 makeworld Thanks for pointing this out
2020-06-02 21:46:09 @tomasino just summarize the links that came before
2020-06-02 21:46:15 makeworld Oh the listing of them
2020-06-02 21:46:21 @tomasino yeah
2020-06-02 21:46:36 makeworld Yeah, it was definitely tedious though. It won't scale, which is the what this discussion is about I think
2020-06-02 21:47:00 makeworld I mean there could always be a third party system (a la CAPCOM) that maintains lists of post and replies through crawling
2020-06-02 21:47:06 makeworld Hmm
2020-06-02 21:49:59 @tomasino what might be a nice tool is a back-link utility that can start with a gemini link and work backwards through other gemlogs it references to try and create a thread that you can then serve up as its own thing. It'd be tricky if people start putting "back to main" links in their pages, but you could write exceptions, i suppose
2020-06-02 21:50:46 @tomasino oh, this is part of a thread, "uberthreadz" will gobble that up and spit out a reading list
2020-06-02 21:51:39 @tomasino you can feel free to use uberthreadz as the name if you go build it. I don't mind. :P
2020-06-02 21:52:44 makeworld Ha thanks
2020-06-02 21:52:50 makeworld But yeah, that's a good idea
2020-06-02 21:53:33 makeworld That's basically what I meant with what I was saying above
2020-06-02 21:54:24 @tomasino as long as it doesn't mess with the original author's page, coolio
2020-06-02 21:54:43 makeworld 👍
2020-06-02 21:55:06 @julienxx I like this idea!
2020-06-02 22:01:19 makeworld This seems pretty complex actually
2020-06-02 22:01:30 @tomasino it starts simple, then gets explodey
2020-06-02 22:01:32 makeworld Because you basically just end up creating a web (lol) of all the content
2020-06-02 22:01:33 makeworld Yeah
2020-06-02 22:01:43 @tomasino start with assuming you stay in gem-space
2020-06-02 22:01:49 makeworld It's hard to tell whether it's just a link, or a link that's a reply
2020-06-02 22:01:50 makeworld Yeah
2020-06-02 22:02:03 @tomasino and check for circular paths and drop those
2020-06-02 22:02:31 @tomasino favor links with "reply" or "response" or "re:" in the descriptor first
2020-06-02 22:02:32 makeworld I can also use dates in the filename to try and tell which one is the first
2020-06-02 22:02:46 @tomasino yeah, that's a nice technique
2020-06-02 22:02:50 makeworld But still, it gets complicated
2020-06-02 22:02:53 @tomasino yep!
2020-06-02 22:02:57 @tomasino it'll take some massaging
2020-06-02 22:02:59 makeworld Hmmph
2020-06-02 22:03:09 @tomasino you didn't want an easy project, did you
2020-06-02 22:03:24 @tomasino uberthreadz is complex black magic
2020-06-02 22:03:31 makeworld *you* didn't want an easy project haha
2020-06-02 22:03:46 @tomasino hehe
2020-06-02 22:03:51 @tomasino you saw my solution in my post
2020-06-02 22:03:56 @tomasino i'm happy with that
2020-06-02 22:03:56 makeworld Anyway, I've written this down in a not, but idk if I'll start on it anytime soon
2020-06-02 22:03:59 makeworld *note
2020-06-02 22:04:37 @tomasino i'm gonna advocate strongly in gemini for alt text on ``` lines and then calling the text/gemini format done
2020-06-02 22:04:41 @tomasino oh, and giving it a name
2020-06-02 22:04:57 rak Man, 29 gemini-related emails in one afternoon? That's more than I get from debian-devel in days.
2020-06-02 22:05:26 makeworld Yeah there's so much
2020-06-02 22:05:47 makeworld tomasino: Sounds good to me too. The only other thing I can think of would be blockquotes
2020-06-02 22:05:51 rak tomasino: Yeah, it's a good idea. The spec is a little odd in that it allows for text on ``` lines but this next never gets displayed.
2020-06-02 22:05:55 @tomasino yeah, but 90% of those emails are from Petite Abeille
2020-06-02 22:06:00 makeworld Lol
2020-06-02 22:06:24 @tomasino rak: gemini://tilde.black/users/fox/journal/20200601-accessibility.gmi
2020-06-02 22:06:37 rak makeworld: can't you just hack in blockquotes by using preformated lines?
2020-06-02 22:06:55 @tomasino blockquotes were brought up in the long formatting discussions of 19/20
2020-06-02 22:07:03 @julienxx This little bee is really bzzzing
2020-06-02 22:07:07 makeworld Yeah, but it'd be nice to have them in explicitly
2020-06-02 22:07:07 @tomasino > as the prefix
2020-06-02 22:07:14 makeworld They came up again recently
2020-06-02 22:07:17 @tomasino no nesting, like *
2020-06-02 22:07:22 makeworld Solderpunk was open to it
2020-06-02 22:07:25 @tomasino but it didn't make the cut with solderpunk's first pass
2020-06-02 22:08:21 @tomasino they could be interesting, but i'm not fighting for or against them
2020-06-02 22:08:27 @tomasino if they end up in spec i'll use it
2020-06-02 22:08:55 @tomasino i want gemini to be the best accessible hypertext solution around, though
2020-06-02 22:08:59 @tomasino i'm passionate about that
2020-06-02 22:09:06 makeworld That'd be nice
2020-06-02 22:09:09 @tomasino we're very close
2020-06-02 22:09:17 ⚡ makeworld afk
2020-06-02 22:12:50 @julienxx I really hope people will stop with formatting wishes on the ML, it’s getting kinda tiresome. The web is already there for pretty stuff after all. What matters to me is accessibility and ease of publishing.
2020-06-02 22:13:33 @tomasino yeah
2020-06-02 22:13:48 kayw formatting wishes as in plaintext only kinda thing?
2020-06-02 22:13:52 @tomasino TLS stuff aside, as i have no clue about any of that, I feel like the spec is 98% there
2020-06-02 22:14:14 @tomasino a few days ago people were asking for frames too
2020-06-02 22:14:46 @tomasino i don't want to be rude, but I wish there was a quick way to tell them to go read the mailing list archives first. But that's kind of an RTFM approach which I hate
2020-06-02 22:15:38 @tomasino perhaps someone with WAY more time on their hands than I have could wiki-fy the spec and reference with footnotes each part of it back to the threads in the mailing list that led to it
2020-06-02 22:15:49 @tomasino but even if we had that, people wouldn't read it
2020-06-02 22:15:52 @tomasino so, poo
2020-06-02 22:35:41 @julienxx I think a lot of people misread the overview of the protocol and think it might be an alternative www with all the bells and whistles
2020-06-02 22:41:07 @julienxx But maybe I’m just plain wrong and it’s just a bias I have. I hope it will settle down a bit and we can move on toward doing stuff with what is available. The alt-text would be nice though
2020-06-02 22:41:27 makeworld A wiki would be good to have
2020-06-02 22:43:41 makeworld Also, naming things is hard
2020-06-02 22:43:52 makeworld Why don't we have programmers working on that problem huh
2020-06-02 22:44:53 makeworld tom seems to have this solved though, lol
2020-06-03 01:10:08 @tomasino people put too much investment into naming stuff
2020-06-03 01:10:21 @tomasino call it something stupid!
2020-06-03 01:10:37 @tomasino gemini wiki? how about "archibald"?
2020-06-03 01:10:42 @tomasino why? no clue. just popped in my head
2020-06-03 02:03:23 makeworld Good advice
2020-06-03 02:03:25 makeworld https://github.com/makeworld-the-better-one/go-gemini
2020-06-03 02:03:45 makeworld I'm not gonna make a public post about this, but if anyone uses Go this might be helpful ^^
2020-06-03 02:03:50 makeworld It's a Gemini library for Go
2020-06-03 02:04:01 makeworld But it's still alpha/beta
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2020-06-03 08:28:30 @julienxx tomasino: great to read cosmic.voyage on gemini what a perfect match :)
2020-06-03 08:28:44 @tomasino right?!
2020-06-03 08:28:47 @tomasino :D
2020-06-03 08:29:34 @tomasino i was wating on michael to patch jetforce's url encode/decode bug
2020-06-03 08:29:43 @tomasino he did that in today's update, so here we are
2020-06-03 08:31:13 @tomasino maybe i'll get a few new writers out of the deal too
2020-06-03 08:33:05 ironzorg fun
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2020-06-03 10:41:33 ironzorg I'd like Gemini to look more something like the following, any thoughts? http://dpaste.com/0PQPVEN
2020-06-03 10:42:06 ironzorg please be gentle, this is a brain dump, so some stupid corner cases might be obvious but I haven't thought of them :)
2020-06-03 10:43:56 @tomasino i think you're better off just serving text/markdown then
2020-06-03 10:44:51 ironzorg I think this is still a fair distance off Markdown https://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/basics
2020-06-03 10:46:23 @tomasino i don't think you'll get any of the inline things you're looking for here into text/gemini
2020-06-03 10:47:06 ironzorg yea that's fine, I'm looking to use Gemini solely as a text format
2020-06-03 10:47:35 @tomasino i suspect people will decorate with the bold and underlines in their text from habit
2020-06-03 10:47:48 ironzorg I'm not advocating for any of this to be implemented btw, just need to get it out of my head :)
2020-06-03 10:47:55 jan6 this looks very much like just a markdown extention
2020-06-03 10:47:55 @tomasino if clients don't support it, it doesn't affect anything. If they do, cool
2020-06-03 10:48:20 @tomasino perhaps not /italic/
2020-06-03 10:48:34 @tomasino but *bold* is something I do in plain text for emphasis sometimes anyway
2020-06-03 10:48:41 ironzorg yea
2020-06-03 10:48:51 jan6 though really, if I got bold and italic and monospace and links, that's all I need for formatting anyway
2020-06-03 10:49:50 ironzorg you can't expect people to sift through ten paragraphs of your prose, so emphasising text is a big help for everybody
2020-06-03 10:50:15 ironzorg I don't think I've ever made it through a single of Torvalds emails because the only emphasis he does is CAPITALISE
2020-06-03 10:50:21 ironzorg and it's generally an insult
2020-06-03 10:50:25 jan6 hmmmm, while complicating the spec slightly, one could actually implement formatting "inline" client side, while being separate lines on the raw response!
2020-06-03 10:51:30 @tomasino authoring a meta-format already jan6?
2020-06-03 10:51:33 jan6 you could say that line starting with / can optionally be rendered italic, but should be joined together with previous and next line
2020-06-03 10:51:49 jan6 which means that
2020-06-03 10:51:52 jan6 hello
2020-06-03 10:51:55 jan6 / there
2020-06-03 10:51:56 jan6 sir
2020-06-03 10:52:06 jan6 would become hello there sir
2020-06-03 10:52:10 jan6 all in one line
2020-06-03 10:52:21 jan6 and it'd be optional if it should be italic or bold
2020-06-03 10:52:29 jan6 could also extend it to links
2020-06-03 10:52:46 jan6 if you wanted italic on a separate line, you just put an empty line before and after
2020-06-03 10:52:49 ironzorg until slash becomes a special column0 character in the actual spec :)
2020-06-03 10:53:00 jan6 I mean, it could be put to spec
2020-06-03 10:53:01 jan6 like that
2020-06-03 10:53:26 ironzorg I think allowing text decoration to be inline would be more convenient
2020-06-03 10:53:33 ironzorg it's already hard enough with links :p
2020-06-03 10:53:44 jan6 a big point currently is that you do NOT need inline shenanigans
2020-06-03 10:54:03 jan6 that you only read a few characters off of the start of the line and know exactly how to format it
2020-06-03 10:54:07 @tomasino you can process an entire text/gemini file from top to bottom in a single pass, line by line
2020-06-03 10:54:09 @tomasino that's awesome
2020-06-03 10:54:16 jan6 my idea would fit in with that ;P
2020-06-03 10:54:19 @tomasino that means you could potentially turn it into a stream
2020-06-03 10:55:38 @tomasino but as i said, *bold* and _underline_ don't break anything if you just start using them. spec or not they're understandable and won't break screen readers. It'll just be like "quote"
2020-06-03 10:55:55 jan6 asterisk-bold-asterisk
2020-06-03 10:56:29 @tomasino yep yep
2020-06-03 10:58:05 ironzorg must be tough being in charge of the spec, no wonder there was a 3 month total freeze
2020-06-03 10:58:28 @tomasino it's easy for people to come in from left field and just start wishlisting
2020-06-03 10:59:03 @tomasino oh, regarding *bold*... there was the clarification just made to list items so that the line starts with *[space] to differentiate from *bold* because *bold* is already in such wide practice
2020-06-03 10:59:10 jan6 I'd really like my branching idea, btw (also the clear separation of the protocol, and text/gemini specs)
2020-06-03 10:59:22 ironzorg yes exactly tomasino
2020-06-03 10:59:29 @tomasino at least it's got a separate section now, jan6
2020-06-03 10:59:44 ironzorg hence starting every special line with a space character, but I think soldier already had that in mind
2020-06-03 10:59:50 ironzorg he mentions it somewhere in the ML
2020-06-03 11:00:18 @tomasino we discussed it as an early option instead of the ``` thing
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2020-06-03 13:08:15 ⚡ tiwesdaeg yawns
2020-06-03 15:04:32 makeworld gemini://mozz.us:1965/files/rfc_gemini_favicon.gmi
2020-06-03 15:04:38 makeworld What do you guys think about this?
2020-06-03 15:05:03 makeworld It breaks the one request per page idea that I like, but it's also completely optional so it's maybe not a big deal?
2020-06-03 15:06:02 ironzorg "motivation: TODO" uh oh
2020-06-03 15:11:11 @tomasino i don't think i'd bother to use it
2020-06-03 15:11:41 @tomasino and honestly, this is exactly the type of "extending the protocol" that solderpunk worries about
2020-06-03 15:11:55 @tomasino it's meaningless and display only
2020-06-03 15:12:17 @tomasino it doesn't actively harm users or servers, so that's nice
2020-06-03 15:12:26 @tomasino but it feels just completely unnecessary
2020-06-03 15:15:00 dkibi emojis are not es widely supported as one would think: I, as an urxvt users, only see tofu. and in the next step wonder why not more general glyps e.g. 한 renders prefectly fine for me and can also serve as an icon.
2020-06-03 15:16:41 jan6 ⁖
2020-06-03 15:16:49 jan6 ♧
2020-06-03 15:27:25 ~tiwesdaeg 🍌
2020-06-03 15:28:57 wgreenhouse dkibi: yes, font fallback in *nix is indeed a wildly inconsistent mess
2020-06-03 15:29:45 wgreenhouse best practice is probably to use fontconfig but there is every chance that [u]rxvt instead does some sort of hardcoded fallback thing, or expects you to manually maintain a font list
2020-06-03 15:30:10 wgreenhouse you might try installing the Symbola font on your system and see what happens; many programs look to that as a fallback
2020-06-03 15:34:59 jan6 urxvt ain't that good at unicode anyway
2020-06-03 15:35:23 jan6 I've once read someone comment that it's worse than normal rxvt, or xterm, or something like that, lol
2020-06-03 15:36:08 dkibi in my understanding this is actually a more fundamental problem with urxvt's unicode handling
2020-06-03 15:36:16 dkibi but I'm too lazy to switch ^^
2020-06-03 15:36:57 wgreenhouse jan6: the longer I'm around, the more impressed I am with the work that has gone into xterm
2020-06-03 15:37:29 wgreenhouse also all those huge PDFs on invisible-island documenting VT history and quirks are fascinating
2020-06-03 15:37:58 wgreenhouse rendering "plain text" it turns out is a hard problem
2020-06-03 15:38:26 jan6 huh
2020-06-03 15:38:35 jan6 xterm code is a mess though, as I heard
2020-06-03 15:38:48 wgreenhouse well it's like any ancient C codebase
2020-06-03 15:38:52 jan6 mostly because of all the tons of legacy code and tons of different people
2020-06-03 15:39:05 wgreenhouse you are in a forest of macros all alike
2020-06-03 15:39:40 ⚡ jan6 wonders what a minimal utf8 + standard ansi escape sequences supporting terminal would be like
2020-06-03 15:40:11 wgreenhouse jan6: "standard escape sequences" is part of the problem, which DEC hardware are you pretending to be :P
2020-06-03 15:40:14 wgreenhouse or some hybrid
2020-06-03 15:40:32 jan6 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANSI_escape_code#CSI_sequences
2020-06-03 15:40:34 jan6 these ones
2020-06-03 15:40:59 jan6 all of them
2020-06-03 15:41:35 dkibi I think I will take the chance to plug this project of mine: https://git.beepboop.network/hansjoerg/hvif-light a renderer for Haiku Vector Icons (in a very early state)
2020-06-03 15:42:31 jan6 cool
2020-06-03 15:42:38 jan6 I read haiku icons are a cool format
2020-06-03 15:43:21 jan6 love some tiny files
2020-06-03 15:45:22 dkibi it is. now that I know it a bit better I see the more ugly bits, but it's quite nice overall.
2020-06-03 15:47:41 dkibi some featuers are easy with antigrain geometry, but tricky to implement independently: there is a transform that can use the outline of a stroke as a path for further strokes. cairo doesn't have such a feature and I found a ML post that said that a partial implementation was abandoned because of numeric instabilities
2020-06-03 15:48:03 wgreenhouse jan6: there is a much longer list of CSIs than that, that varied with particular model numbers of hardware terminal
2020-06-03 15:48:13 wgreenhouse xterm picked to mostly be a VT220 which looks like what we actually want
2020-06-03 15:48:18 wgreenhouse (VT100 is too barebones)
2020-06-03 15:48:35 dkibi fortunately its utility is quite restricted in hvif and hence not in wide use
2020-06-03 15:49:56 jan6 why's vt100 too barebones?
2020-06-03 15:50:19 jan6 all you really need is colors, bold/dim, cursor position, and clear line, pretty much
2020-06-03 15:50:23 wgreenhouse jan6: no color in vt100
2020-06-03 15:50:29 wgreenhouse https://invisible-island.net/xterm/ctlseqs/ctlseqs.html#h3-Functions-using-CSI-_-ordered-by-the-final-character_s_
2020-06-03 15:50:35 wgreenhouse btw is a fuller list of CSIs
2020-06-03 15:51:04 wgreenhouse somewhere that guy has actually stashed the hardware manuals for these terminals, too, can't find that link right now
2020-06-03 15:51:23 jan6 lol
2020-06-03 15:57:28 wgreenhouse ah, further down that same page, https://invisible-island.net/xterm/ctlseqs/ctlseqs.html#h3-Technical-manuals
2020-06-03 17:06:21 kayw does anyone have a link for the plan9 client that was released
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2020-06-03 17:42:56 @julienxx kayw: https://git.sr.ht/~ft/gemnine
2020-06-03 17:43:06 kayw awesome, thanks
2020-06-03 17:43:12 kayw im gonna try and get it running
2020-06-03 17:44:46 @julienxx It’s pretty good!
2020-06-03 17:46:27 kayw I joined the plan9 bootcamp that SDF has going on right now, so i'm currently dicking around on plan9
2020-06-03 17:48:31 @julienxx Cool! I should join too as I know next to nothing :) Is it good?
2020-06-03 17:52:33 kayw As of right now, the main goal is to get drawterm setup, and have yourself login
2020-06-03 17:52:50 kayw also, side note
2020-06-03 17:53:22 kayw i had an issue with DNS stuff and running `DNSSERVER=8.8.8.8` before running `ndb/dns -r` will fix it
2020-06-03 17:55:27 makeworld Boo, use 1.1.1.1
2020-06-03 17:55:28 wgreenhouse kayw: have sometimes considered getting an sdf acct just for the fact that they still have a plan9 system available to play with
2020-06-03 17:55:28 makeworld :)
2020-06-03 17:55:55 kayw yeah, it's good
2020-06-03 17:56:09 kayw also, i just used 8.8.8.8 so i could connect
2020-06-03 17:56:34 wgreenhouse do they also still have opengenera (lisp machine)? I see it listed in their propaganda
2020-06-03 17:58:51 kayw also i keep getting these weird chars whenever i press shift... https://i.salejandro.me/aQk0fL.png
2020-06-03 18:00:22 wgreenhouse wow
2020-06-03 18:00:25 wgreenhouse very zalgotext
2020-06-03 19:23:26 wangofett zalgo - he comes
2020-06-03 20:14:44 makeworld H̢̧̛̜̺̻̯͉͚̞̤̫̳̑͛͊͝ę̷̵̜̘͕̣̮̺ͣ̇͌ͯ͛ͯ̿͗̌̾ ͆ͯ̏ͬ̓̒̉ͮͭͬ͋͏̱̼̗̲̦̼̭̬͖̗̱̮̀́͘͘c̞̮̯̬͙͕̐̏̓̑͂͑̊ͦͩͦͯ͐ͪ͡ơ̖̳̰͍͈͈̮͗ͯ͛͘͞m̵̵̢̦͇̟̗͙͕͔̤̘̪̰̝̺̃͑ͣͨ̋̇̒͆̅̎ͭͥͤ̅ͨ̓͆̎̍͠ę̸̵̬̠̠̮̥͙̜̭ͨ̇́̊ͬͩ̌̒̃̃̊̒͆͢ͅ
2020-06-03 20:14:44 makeworld ş̴̺̱͉̪̰͚̰̜̠̓ͩ̈́ͥ̌̍̏̈̓͑ͯ̍͐̅͜͠͡
2020-06-03 20:22:02 wgreenhouse impressed how well my terminal rendered zalgo
2020-06-03 20:22:44 lick lol
2020-06-03 20:34:12 kayw wow, mind did not render well
2020-06-03 20:34:20 kayw s/nd/ne/
2020-06-03 20:37:40 wgreenhouse I mean it rendered like zalgo, i.e. bleeding over the lines
2020-06-03 20:37:47 wgreenhouse technically not "well" Ж)
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2020-06-04 02:57:19 epoch 17:58 < kayw> also i keep getting these weird chars whenever i press shift... https://i.salejandro.me/aQk0fL.png
2020-06-04 02:57:34 epoch it kinds of looks like the head of an android
2020-06-04 02:57:45 epoch with the right half shadowed
2020-06-04 02:58:09 epoch and the black line across the face like an eye-band, and you can see a pixel of black mouth coming out of the shadow
2020-06-04 02:58:45 epoch no idea what it'd be otherwise
2020-06-04 03:01:46 kayw yeah dude, i've got no clue what it is
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2020-06-04 07:12:22 ℹ Mode #gemini [+o julienxx] by ChanServ
2020-06-04 08:03:03 xq heyhoh
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2020-06-04 08:23:22 @tomasino ho-hey!
2020-06-04 08:27:45 @julienxx hello, how's everyone doing?
2020-06-04 08:27:56 @tomasino swimmingly
2020-06-04 08:27:58 @tomasino you?
2020-06-04 08:31:57 @julienxx pretty good, getting used to my new place
2020-06-04 08:34:21 @tomasino oh right, the move!
2020-06-04 08:34:24 @tomasino that's awesome
2020-06-04 08:37:34 @julienxx my space is more than twice the surface of the previous, that's so strange
2020-06-04 08:39:22 @tomasino just lie down in the middle and sprawl for a bit
2020-06-04 08:59:27 xq oh nice!
2020-06-04 08:59:31 xq having more place to live is great
2020-06-04 09:01:28 xq the mailing list on "new features for gemini" is exploding :D
2020-06-04 09:02:53 @julienxx I don't get the use-case for all these weird urls
2020-06-04 09:03:18 xq well, a lot of URLs are not *that* bad
2020-06-04 09:03:26 xq like phone:… or mailto:
2020-06-04 09:03:44 xq but for gemini, data url is just not the way it's meant to be used
2020-06-04 09:03:45 xq ain't nobody can read those
2020-06-04 09:13:43 @tomasino i beginning to sense that person that keeps posting all the URL nonsense is trolling or else really REALLY doesn't get it
2020-06-04 09:17:19 ironzorg Petite Abeille?
2020-06-04 09:19:01 @tomasino yeah
2020-06-04 09:21:57 @julienxx I vote trolling, their posts are exhausting
2020-06-04 09:24:43 ironzorg so the argument is about whether Gemini should specify which URL types are allowed in link lines, or if it should let clients decide what constitutes a URL, or something in between?
2020-06-04 09:25:20 ironzorg it's an interesting question, if I understand correctly
2020-06-04 09:27:54 @tomasino solderpunk wants links to be links. petite abeille keeps going down deep paths explaining all the shitty htings you can do with URLs that aren't links at all but rather inline shit
2020-06-04 09:28:00 @tomasino which completely misses the point
2020-06-04 09:28:48 @tomasino "but what if we use a data url bullshit to embed a whole bunch of data that evaluates to a vcard" ... just link to a vcard
2020-06-04 09:30:53 ironzorg in my experience with programming/engineering, these are the two POVs there are in the wild: the more liberal view of allowing/facilitating features whenever they can be used, and the more conservative view that wants consistency and predictability over all (and sometimes over convenience of use)
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2020-06-04 09:31:36 ironzorg the two views are orthogonal, there's no right or wrong, and a compromise can lead to the consensus trap…
2020-06-04 09:33:13 ironzorg but I think Petite Abeille doesn't understand the other side's mindset, and just spams examples hoping one would magically convince SP
2020-06-04 09:33:25 ironzorg it's not trolling
2020-06-04 09:37:23 @julienxx I really don't think so, PA is having fun torturing the spec for me. Whey they contribute with gemini content or software I'll change my mind.
2020-06-04 09:37:33 styan I am reading the latest post, and it is basically trolling solderpunk with the concept of auto-executing shell scripts embedded in data URLs...
2020-06-04 09:38:45 styan At least, it caused me to shudder at the thought. Shellscript.
2020-06-04 09:39:39 styan ironzorg: Also, Lisp seems like it fits both of your two POVs :-)
2020-06-04 09:39:57 ironzorg remember the times when people were running Java applets in their browsers, and saw now problems with it? I don't know what's going through his mind, it's not self-evident there's malicious intent :)
2020-06-04 09:40:14 ironzorg styan: does it?
2020-06-04 09:41:44 styan Lisp the language is composed entirely of explicitly predictable S-expressions, while also allowing unlimited freedom in the form of macros. I thought that sounded like both of the things.
2020-06-04 09:43:14 @tomasino the goals of the project and repeated explanation of the desires of what it stands for are very clearly opposed to that liberal view you're talking about ironzorg. I'm running out of good faith in petite
2020-06-04 09:43:34 styan But, in that line of thinking, every turing-complete language can be hammered into that hole.
2020-06-04 09:45:57 ironzorg styan: I get your example, I think this is what SP wants to avoid, c.f. https://lists.orbitalfox.eu/archives/gemini/2020/001241.html grep what the heck do I do with a tag: link?
2020-06-04 09:46:14 ironzorg leaving the field open to interpretation
2020-06-04 09:47:07 ironzorg tomasino: I understand that, but a liberal type does not see a specification as a rulebook, more like a list that is always extensible because editing it costs so little in itself :)
2020-06-04 09:47:44 jan6 anything can be abused with sufficient will
2020-06-04 09:48:11 ironzorg I'm behind SP on that one anyway, I've read his emails and I agree with his concerns, so w8&see
2020-06-04 09:48:20 jan6 #parts of urls also exist
2020-06-04 09:48:40 jan6 url fragments, or whatnot
2020-06-04 09:49:17 xq <styan> I am reading the latest post, and it is basically trolling solderpunk with the concept of auto-executing shell scripts embedded in data URLs...
2020-06-04 09:49:25 xq that's really up to the point where i was like: WHAT?!
2020-06-04 09:50:33 xq but a thing that i thought about for clients:
2020-06-04 09:50:56 xq what do you guys think of the idea of an opt-in option to inline-display images in a graphical client?
2020-06-04 09:51:20 xq so, when a link to an image is encountered (guessed by the file extension), you can click a [+] button and the client will then inline-load te image
2020-06-04 09:56:01 @tomasino i'm against it
2020-06-04 09:56:11 jan6 ?url params could be used for that
2020-06-04 09:56:26 jan6 like image.png?type=inline
2020-06-04 09:56:42 @tomasino if some clients start doing it people will start building content for it which will make other clients start doing it, and then we have inline images everywhere
2020-06-04 09:56:52 @tomasino just let links be links
2020-06-04 09:58:07 @tomasino xq: "you can click a [+] button and the client will then" - that wouldn't be inlining, really...
2020-06-04 09:58:09 @tomasino i don't mind that
2020-06-04 09:58:12 @tomasino as long as there's a click
2020-06-04 10:00:07 jan6 as long as whatever thing is completely optional, it's not too bad in my book
2020-06-04 10:03:11 styan Maybe there should be a "roboclient" meta-user-agent in the robots.txt, so that a tiny server can indicate that clients should not auto-fetch large files?
2020-06-04 10:04:41 @julienxx not a fan, would make a gemini page look like a web page
2020-06-04 10:08:46 xq idea is that it's 100% optional and configurable
2020-06-04 10:09:57 xq but having an image inlined is not bad for usability
2020-06-04 10:11:40 ironzorg I think somebody on the ML suggested registering mime types along with the programs to handle them, which would make the question of handling images just one case among others
2020-06-04 10:11:56 ironzorg that's how browsers handle… URIs…
2020-06-04 10:12:26 @tomasino if you click the link before it does anything then i'm cool with it. if it displays images without a click that's no good and gets away from the document with links structure
2020-06-04 10:12:40 @tomasino of text/gemini, that is. Feel free to serve markdown. :)
2020-06-04 10:12:50 xq tomasino: yeah, exactly
2020-06-04 10:13:01 xq i for myself would be okay with auto-serving inline images
2020-06-04 10:13:21 xq but: we do software and we can make it configurable with the sane defaults
2020-06-04 10:13:26 xq which would be "do nothing at all"
2020-06-04 10:13:37 xq don't even provide an option for accidential clicks
2020-06-04 10:16:35 @tomasino remember, inline images is the cheapest way to add tracking
2020-06-04 10:17:20 @tomasino it's also a slippery slope
2020-06-04 10:17:32 jan6 you could serve all images as "inline"
2020-06-04 10:17:32 @tomasino you'll get petite in there using it to side-load scripts in an hour
2020-06-04 10:17:34 xq yes, that's why i want the default to be "don't even allow an accidential click"
2020-06-04 10:17:41 jan6 client fetches them and displays on click
2020-06-04 10:17:48 jan6 but not per spec
2020-06-04 10:18:03 xq jan6: no, i wouldn't do that
2020-06-04 10:18:17 xq it must be obvious what happenes
2020-06-04 10:18:20 jan6 I mean, is there anything that prohibits that? ;P
2020-06-04 10:18:31 styan Also, if you allow external images and do not check that you already downloaded it, then your client could flood someone's server with requests from a maliciously crafted page!
2020-06-04 10:18:31 xq no, except for personal standards :D
2020-06-04 10:18:43 xq styan: true
2020-06-04 10:18:45 xq good point!
2020-06-04 10:19:06 jan6 tbh not having inline images isn't bad at all
2020-06-04 10:19:09 jan6 it's just a different mindset
2020-06-04 10:19:16 xq yeah, and i respect that! :)
2020-06-04 10:19:35 jan6 it's not a "everything at once", like html, but just "everything as needed"
2020-06-04 10:19:35 xq hm
2020-06-04 10:19:55 xq yeah, i think i'll go with the "inline the image on request" option
2020-06-04 10:20:07 jan6 also avoids the need to downscale images, which would take ages to load on the page
2020-06-04 10:20:11 xq that's convenient, and the user stays in power of their requests
2020-06-04 10:20:17 @tomasino you could display it in a pretty lightbox
2020-06-04 10:20:20 @tomasino on click
2020-06-04 10:20:31 xq what's a lightbox?
2020-06-04 10:20:41 @tomasino a modal-type thingy that does an overlay of the content
2020-06-04 10:20:53 @tomasino picture takes over with a way to dismiss it
2020-06-04 10:21:56 xq hm
2020-06-04 10:22:04 xq that's what Castor does for me atm
2020-06-04 10:22:29 xq and i don't like it (opening the image file in another tool/window)
2020-06-04 10:22:44 @tomasino ahh, a lightbox would be in the same tool, just overlaying your stuff
2020-06-04 10:22:52 xq yeah, true
2020-06-04 10:22:52 @tomasino but really, as a client author, do what you feel works best
2020-06-04 10:23:03 xq sure thing ;)
2020-06-04 10:23:14 xq but asking some other people what they think of your ideas is always a good thing
2020-06-04 10:23:24 xq to prevent doing utterly stupid stuff in the first place
2020-06-04 10:23:44 @tomasino all the world on fire shit in 2020 has me really riled up and i keep snapping at people. trying not to do that here and on the mailing list, but i'm not always good at it
2020-06-04 10:24:39 @tomasino i'm really, really trying not to respond to petite cause i think it'd would be some shit suggesting they serve text/html over gemini and really just fuck up everything all at once and save us some time
2020-06-04 10:25:00 @tomasino not helpful to anyone
2020-06-04 10:25:04 ⚡ tomasino goes back to work
2020-06-04 10:27:28 jan6 heh
2020-06-04 10:27:41 jan6 why not text/html? ;P
2020-06-04 10:28:08 jan6 that's the point people seem to miss, that text/gemini doesn't need all the fancy extentions, they can simply use any other mimetype, and call it a day
2020-06-04 10:28:33 xq yeah, exactly
2020-06-04 10:28:37 jan6 just make a text/geminline with all the inline stuff ;P
2020-06-04 10:28:47 xq i think the current spec is (except for ambiguities) pretty perfect
2020-06-04 10:28:50 jan6 text/gemini+image
2020-06-04 10:29:05 jan6 someone should yell at mailing list with the info
2020-06-04 10:29:24 ⚡ jan6 isn't good communicator
2020-06-04 10:30:23 @tomasino jan6: huh?
2020-06-04 10:30:24 @tomasino ;)
2020-06-04 10:31:44 jan6 what huh?
2020-06-04 10:32:35 @tomasino whoozits?
2020-06-04 10:35:20 jan6 watzitz?
2020-06-04 10:36:50 @tomasino ahh, taika waititi
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2020-06-04 11:22:53 sysdharma Hey folks - I just started reading the specification for Gemini (at https://gopher.commons.host/gopher://gemini.circumlunar.space/0/docs/spec-spec.txt) and had trouble parsing this "Gemini clients MUST accept CRLF and bare LF as being representative of a line break in text media received via HTTP."
2020-06-04 11:22:53 sysdharma Is that "via HTTP" an artifact?
2020-06-04 11:23:19 @tomasino Yep
2020-06-04 11:23:36 @tomasino Copied from another spec most likely
2020-06-04 11:24:01 sysdharma tomasino: thanks!
2020-06-04 11:24:07 @tomasino NP!
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2020-06-04 12:01:57 xq huh
2020-06-04 12:01:58 xq :D
2020-06-04 12:39:31 sysdharma tomasino: another question about the spec, on relative URL paths, is it relative to the current URL or the root at the current server? meaning a link to 'foo/bar' from gemini://server/a/b/c points to gemini://server/foo/bar or gemini://server/a/b/foo/bar ?
2020-06-04 12:47:03 ironzorg sysdharma: I think this answers your question https://lists.orbitalfox.eu/archives/gemini/2020/001248.html
2020-06-04 12:49:34 xq "foo/bar" is relative to the current fil
2020-06-04 12:49:41 xq "/foo/bar" is absolute on the current server
2020-06-04 12:49:51 jan6 I'd assume normal convention of "/path/path" is relative to the server and "path/path" is relative to current dir
2020-06-04 12:49:54 xq both URIs don't have a schema, one is relative, one is absolute
2020-06-04 12:50:33 xq [scheme][//authority]{[/abspath]|[relpath]}
2020-06-04 12:50:36 xq is roughly the syntax
2020-06-04 12:58:19 sysdharma ok, thanks!
2020-06-04 13:35:29 ⚡ rak mumbles something about per-sender rate limiting on the ML
2020-06-04 13:36:17 rak 14 of the 22 emails I've gotten since last night are from the same person
2020-06-04 13:37:30 kayw PA has been sending a lot of emails
2020-06-04 13:37:32 kayw like
2020-06-04 13:37:37 kayw a little too many emails
2020-06-04 13:38:14 kayw it's hard to keep up
2020-06-04 13:44:08 makeworld It's annoying
2020-06-04 13:44:44 makeworld It's like they're really tone deaf to the whole project and community
2020-06-04 13:45:01 makeworld One day they'll find out about this IRC and that'll be the end
2020-06-04 13:45:02 makeworld Lol
2020-06-04 13:46:30 jan6 lol
2020-06-04 13:46:37 jan6 how about you tell them yourself? ;P
2020-06-04 13:46:44 jan6 no more flooding the list ;P
2020-06-04 13:47:51 ~tiwesdaeg can we make this a no bees allowed space?
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2020-06-04 13:49:06 makeworld jan6: I've considered emailing them
2020-06-04 13:50:30 wgreenhouse tiwesdaeg: bzz bzz
2020-06-04 13:51:16 dkibi don't know if this is relevant for anyone, but I have gemserv running on nixos and reproduced parts of the config here: gemini://otrn.org:1965/updates/2020-06-04-gemserv.gmi
2020-06-04 13:51:34 rak makeworld: Indeed, many of the proposals I've seen on the ML seem to go against the spirit of the project
2020-06-04 13:52:20 makeworld As a general rule, if you want to extend it, you're doing it wrong
2020-06-04 13:52:33 rak If you want to serve something feature equivalent to markdown or HTML, why not just serve markdown or HTML.
2020-06-04 13:52:55 makeworld Yeah exactly
2020-06-04 13:54:10 ~tiwesdaeg I wouldn't mind seeing some of the graphical browsers render markdown
2020-06-04 13:54:40 makeworld Yeah, me neither
2020-06-04 13:54:48 ~tiwesdaeg I'm quite happy with the simplicity of text/gemini
2020-06-04 13:55:19 ~tiwesdaeg html should just be offloaded to your default web browser
2020-06-04 13:57:29 jan6 I still like my idea of extending text/gemini to support formatting in a line-oriented way which is displayed inline, too bad it's not gonna be added and it'd look weird when clients don't support it
2020-06-04 13:58:31 ironzorg it's also not usable in pure markup mode jan6
2020-06-04 13:58:45 wgreenhouse I think that kind of formatting should be limited to things that people use as conventions on IRC and plaintext email, like *bold* and _underline_
2020-06-04 13:59:03 wgreenhouse so your eye can parse it even if the client does not
2020-06-04 13:59:46 jan6 pure markup mode?
2020-06-04 13:59:47 dkibi Should text/gemini lines and with crlf?
2020-06-04 13:59:56 rak I don't this kind of thing doesn't need to be in the spec. A client could just arbitrarily adopt the convention of making *bold* look bold in a terminal if it wanted.
2020-06-04 14:00:09 jan6 *end, and good idea to end in crlf, yes
2020-06-04 14:00:26 rak please no
2020-06-04 14:00:41 rak I don't want to have to run all of my files through unix2dos or whatever the current utility name is.
2020-06-04 14:00:47 dkibi does anyone know how to make git on not-windows allow this?
2020-06-04 14:01:01 jan6 I'd like specifically the line-oriented nature, you don't need to worry about what happens if you do *1*2**3**4
2020-06-04 14:01:13 jan6 rak: why would you need to?
2020-06-04 14:01:18 jan6 it prints fine on linux ;P
2020-06-04 14:02:01 rak dkibi: Allow what? This might be useful: https://help.github.com/en/github/using-git/configuring-git-to-handle-line-endings
2020-06-04 14:02:03 ~tiwesdaeg I'm pretty sure only first response from the server needs to have CRLF
2020-06-04 14:02:23 jan6 unless you're gonna be editing it, crlf should display fine on linux
2020-06-04 14:02:55 dkibi rak: ah thanks I found some discussions about this bot no short writeup
2020-06-04 14:03:09 jan6 printf "hello\r\nthere\n" works totally fine in my terminal
2020-06-04 14:03:15 rak Right, that's my understanding. The first response line has to end with CRLF, but clients have to accept LF and CRLF as line endings in text/* media
2020-06-04 14:03:27 ~tiwesdaeg when I make CGI scripts in shell, I do 'printf "20 text/gemini\r\n"'
2020-06-04 14:03:40 ~tiwesdaeg any line after that can just be \n
2020-06-04 14:03:47 jan6 sure
2020-06-04 14:03:50 dkibi unix2dos did not produce a diff so I assumed git would strip off the \r by default?
2020-06-04 14:03:50 ~tiwesdaeg I think that's all echo outputs
2020-06-04 14:04:14 rak Maybe I misinterpreted dkibi's proposal. I thought dkibi was proposing requiring that every line in a text/gemini file end with \r\n.
2020-06-04 14:04:19 jan6 you set git options, git for windows just has a GUI to do that
2020-06-04 14:04:55 dkibi nono it's not a proposal it's a "I want to adher to the standard for my own page"
2020-06-04 14:05:02 ~tiwesdaeg ahh
2020-06-04 14:05:14 dkibi s/page/space/
2020-06-04 14:05:15 rak Oooh, phew.
2020-06-04 14:05:18 ~tiwesdaeg dkibi: you jsut need it for the first line of the server output
2020-06-04 14:05:22 rak Sorry, I misunderstood you :-)
2020-06-04 14:05:31 ~tiwesdaeg if you are just talking about .gmi/.gemini files
2020-06-04 14:05:39 ~tiwesdaeg then don't worry about it
2020-06-04 14:05:43 dkibi it's alright I was not precise
2020-06-04 14:05:57 ~tiwesdaeg the server should handle that part
2020-06-04 14:06:54 dkibi I'm asking because gemini-diagnostics complains
2020-06-04 14:07:54 ~tiwesdaeg I don't think any is writing .gmi files with each ine ending in CRLF
2020-06-04 14:08:02 ~tiwesdaeg s/ine/line
2020-06-04 14:08:33 jan6 @git, a quick grep suggests that you might want to look into merge.renormalize core.autocrlf core.safecrlf core.eol config options, and however exactly those are set
2020-06-04 14:08:44 jan6 *IF* you want to autoconvert
2020-06-04 14:09:39 jan6 is there any clarity if client should accept CRLF and LF in the same file at the same time, or only one should be used at a time?
2020-06-04 14:09:56 ~tiwesdaeg I don't think so
2020-06-04 14:10:19 jan6 like "hello \r\n there \n mr \r\n tiwesdaeg" should be read fine?
2020-06-04 14:10:38 ~tiwesdaeg test it out!
2020-06-04 14:10:51 dkibi haah "site/index.gmi: Dyalog APL transfer"
2020-06-04 14:10:53 dkibi says file
2020-06-04 14:10:54 ~tiwesdaeg but yeah, I think all the clients can handle both
2020-06-04 14:12:37 rak Indeed, the spec requires them to. §3.3: "Gemini clients MUST accept CRLF and bare LF as being representative of a line break in text media"
2020-06-04 14:13:42 dkibi ok nice
2020-06-04 14:13:57 dkibi so the diagnostic is a bit to strict, but I guess that's alright
2020-06-04 14:14:20 rak OTOH, the sentence above it says: "Gemini relaxes this requirement and allows the transport of text media with plain LF alone representing a line break when it is done consistently for an entire response body."
2020-06-04 14:16:05 jan6 which isn't too clear about what if it's inconsistent line endings, should it error? try to render anyway, converting them to be consistent?
2020-06-04 14:22:35 ironzorg ugh the top posting
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2020-06-04 15:42:46 ironzorg the spec mentions clients can generate a ToC from header lines to "allow users to easily jump to specific sections without excessive scrolling", does anybody know if that implies the fragment part of a URL should be used to jump to a given line, as with HTTP browsers?
2020-06-04 15:48:38 ironzorg that was probably asked about a million times :p
2020-06-04 15:57:26 lick ooo
2020-06-04 16:07:46 ℹ lick is now known as lickthecheese
2020-06-04 16:08:26 ℹ lickthecheese is now known as lick
2020-06-04 16:13:09 dkibi rak: thanks for taking this to the ML and collecting prior discussions
2020-06-04 16:15:33 @tomasino i guess it's theoretically possible, iron, but there's no id's or anything that a fragment descriptor would target
2020-06-04 16:15:50 @tomasino having a hash followed by a URL encoded string that matches your headline could work, but yuck
2020-06-04 16:16:09 @tomasino i think it's meant for inner-document referencing on the client-side
2020-06-04 16:19:41 rak dkibi: Sure thing. Fixing the spec might make some existing servers non-compliant, but it won't break any clients. And in fact, it should simplify things for clients.
2020-06-04 16:20:32 ironzorg tomasino: got it, thanks
2020-06-04 16:22:21 ℹ lick is now known as thisisatest
2020-06-04 16:22:34 rak I have no clue what PA's reply to my email is supposed to mean, short of trolling...
2020-06-04 16:22:41 ℹ thisisatest is now known as lick
2020-06-04 16:25:02 @tomasino trolling, yes
2020-06-04 16:41:15 xq i'm pretty sure that the last proposals are just trolls
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2020-06-04 16:52:34 dkibi rak: would what you suggest also allow e.g. unicode normalization?
2020-06-04 16:56:03 lukee @ironzorg: I've implemented the table of contents in GemiNaut, but I dont think the spec says anything about using a fragment as a persistent reference
2020-06-04 16:56:18 lukee it would be a nice idea
2020-06-04 16:59:27 lukee there would have to be a canonical way to reference these headings
2020-06-04 16:59:59 lukee the google style guide suggests a kebab case link id
2020-06-04 16:59:59 lukee https://developers.google.com/style/headings-targets
2020-06-04 17:00:13 lukee so if you had a heading # My heading in Gemini
2020-06-04 17:00:30 lukee the link target would be #my-heading-in-gemini
2020-06-04 17:01:21 lukee clients can mostly sort this out, but there needs to be an agreed convention, since there is no way of for the author to explicitly define the id
2020-06-04 17:05:47 @tomasino #3 (links to third heading)
2020-06-04 17:05:47 @tomasino :)
2020-06-04 17:06:12 @tomasino it's just as fragile
2020-06-04 17:06:19 @tomasino someone tweaks the spelling and your link fails
2020-06-04 17:07:00 makeworld tomasino: I like that numbered link
2020-06-04 17:07:12 makeworld But yeah we should definitely have a standard way of doing it
2020-06-04 17:09:20 lukee I think at least the version based on the text of the heading is somewhat robust to additional headings being defined
2020-06-04 17:09:55 lukee personally I prefer that to URL encoding spaces into the fragment
2020-06-04 17:10:04 lukee And it should be case insensitive IMO
2020-06-04 17:13:29 jan6 hmm
2020-06-04 17:15:45 makeworld Yeah, I think going with an existing standard makes sense
2020-06-04 17:15:53 makeworld Like basically just copy what markdown does
2020-06-04 17:46:29 lukee Hey folks, I just commissioned a new server
2020-06-04 17:46:30 lukee gemini://gemini.marmaladefoo.com/
2020-06-04 17:46:48 lukee Everyone needs a playground
2020-06-04 17:47:11 makeworld Abeille says "I foretell a schism" smh
2020-06-04 17:47:20 makeworld Yeah who's leading the schism huh
2020-06-04 17:47:49 makeworld lukee: Cool!
2020-06-04 17:53:42 lukee my ISP does raspberrypi in the cloud
2020-06-04 18:07:12 ~tiwesdaeg so many www links!
2020-06-04 18:07:44 ~tiwesdaeg also, I would love to learn how to make lutes
2020-06-04 18:08:13 ~tiwesdaeg I've got an anglo-saxon lyre project partially complete
2020-06-04 18:08:51 ~tiwesdaeg and a made a ghetto version with a cigar box and a piece of old table
2020-06-04 18:22:31 rak dkibi: No. All I'm proposing is simplifying the spec to 1) eliminate ambiguity, and 2) be consistent with every other text-transmitting protocol since at least the 80s, and 3) not violate the RFCs that define mime types.
2020-06-04 18:26:31 rak There's also the part that, if at any point the community wishes to register the text/gemini mime type or otherwise standardize gemini, (3) will be a deal breaker to the best of my knowledge (it violates a MUST requirement for being classified under the "text" type, RFC2046§4.1)
2020-06-04 18:28:16 rak So the community might as well put up with minor pain now while the community is small and flexible and things are still a bit fluid, rather than be stuck N years down the road when change will be painful.
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2020-06-04 18:36:01 dkibi right you comment about a well-defined representation was just to justify changing the line ending (from the on disk representation)
2020-06-04 18:36:35 dkibi I can't find a definition of "canonecal form" in this rfc. is a file transmitted via a protocol supposed to be in canonical form (I know next to nothing about mime)
2020-06-04 18:38:45 dkibi ah thats in part 1?
2020-06-04 18:39:29 dkibi s/canonecal/canonical/
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2020-06-04 18:41:42 dkibi oh no :( I fear that I stole the geminaut spot on the list :(
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2020-06-04 18:46:45 jan6 there was some discussion about the line endings
2020-06-04 18:47:07 jan6 html or something had already set the precedent of allowing different line endings
2020-06-04 18:47:13 jan6 or was it http, idk
2020-06-04 18:49:23 rak I dug it up and will reply to the list later, I have other stuff to tend to now.
2020-06-04 18:50:31 rak But in short: HTTP requires servers to sent everything in canonical form, including text. This means that text/* line endings must be CLRF. However, the protocol also says that applications must accept CRLF, bare CR, and bare LF as line endings for text/* sent over HTTP.
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2020-06-04 18:51:40 jan6 which is pretty much the case here, except no living OS uses CR
2020-06-04 18:51:41 rak I'll send an email later revising my proposal to essentially: the canonical form of text/gemini has crlf line endings, and servers must send data in canonical form, but clients must also accept crlf and bare lf (à la http)
2020-06-04 18:51:53 jan6 what's the point then
2020-06-04 18:52:15 jan6 also just let it be, several people argued they didn't want to transform user's content server-side
2020-06-04 18:53:03 jan6 you can just spread the word that crlf is the unofficially best preferred line ending for gemini ;P
2020-06-04 18:53:11 rak Not violating existing RFCs on mime types, and being able to eventually standardize the protocol and mime/type. But perhaps this is just the academic in me talking.
2020-06-04 18:55:40 dkibi the one thing I really don't understand in all of this: does the mime type rfc specify that content needs to be transmited in canonical form? can not one say that the canonical form is "crlf" line ending, but servers are free to transmit a denomalized form with lf line endings?
2020-06-04 18:59:17 jan6 ^
2020-06-04 19:04:41 @tomasino that line, rak, is copypasta from another RFC (hence the accidental HTTP still in it)
2020-06-04 19:05:08 @tomasino originally soldepunk said CRLF only because he was looking at the same spec you are, but people found ones that superceded it that were newer showing exceptions
2020-06-04 19:13:07 jan6 ^
2020-06-04 19:35:29 ▬▬▶ acdw has joined #gemini
2020-06-04 19:52:58 makeworld I have a cache, renderer, and TOFU database working for my top-secret client - it's been a lot of fun to implement
2020-06-04 19:53:32 acdw oooh
2020-06-04 19:53:52 acdw I need to implement TOFU -- mind talking about how your database works?
2020-06-04 19:53:58 makeworld Sure!
2020-06-04 19:56:32 makeworld It's basically what Bombadillo does. I store the hash of the raw cert, as well as its expiry date. Then for every request, I pass the cert to a function that tries to load the TOFU entry from storage. If it doesn't exist, then the current cert is saved. If the fingerprints match, everything's good. If they don't match, but the expiry date has
2020-06-04 19:56:32 makeworld passed, then the new cert is saved over top of the old one. Otherwise, something malicious has happened
2020-06-04 19:57:07 makeworld https://pastebin.com/xMsdE5D0
2020-06-04 19:57:30 makeworld acdw: That's the overview, and the text of my high level function that handles it
2020-06-04 19:57:48 makeworld It really wasn't that bad to do
2020-06-04 19:57:56 acdw Awesome!
2020-06-04 19:58:02 acdw Thank you :)
2020-06-04 19:58:40 makeworld You're welcome, let me know if you any other questions
2020-06-04 19:58:45 makeworld *you have
2020-06-04 19:59:11 acdw so a secret client eh?
2020-06-04 19:59:24 makeworld For now...
2020-06-04 19:59:39 acdw hahaha
2020-06-04 19:59:40 acdw awesome
2020-06-04 19:59:42 makeworld Once it work properly I'll announce it ofc
2020-06-04 19:59:44 makeworld Ha thanks
2020-06-04 19:59:58 ⚡ makeworld afk
2020-06-04 20:00:12 ⚡ lick is nolonger afk
2020-06-04 20:01:13 jan6 nolon ger
2020-06-04 20:01:34 jan6 I should make a proper client sometime shouldn't I...
2020-06-04 20:04:58 lukee tiwesdaeg: yes too many www links right now, I need to write more gemini content.
2020-06-04 20:05:27 ~tiwesdaeg and make more lutes
2020-06-04 20:05:39 lukee lute making is like making other instruments, you just need to work precisely and follow a good plan. Well thats the basics
2020-06-04 20:05:51 lukee getting a good sound, thats the black art!
2020-06-04 20:06:14 acdw I don' teven know what lutes sound like tbh
2020-06-04 20:06:21 acdw and I'm at work so I can't listen :(
2020-06-04 20:06:26 lukee omg you havent lived :-)
2020-06-04 20:06:41 acdw Tonight, my life will begin!
2020-06-04 20:06:53 ~tiwesdaeg how difficult is it to make the back?
2020-06-04 20:07:29 lukee yeah thats one of the tricky bits - you need to make a solid mold and bend the ribs over it
2020-06-04 20:07:39 ~tiwesdaeg I was about to ask
2020-06-04 20:08:01 ~tiwesdaeg so you don't bend each individually, but bend put them all in the mold
2020-06-04 20:09:19 ~tiwesdaeg I'm guessing it's still easier than messing with arched topped guitars or violins
2020-06-04 20:09:19 lukee @acdw here is a link to a full album of one of my customers - you can stream the whole album. he has others too https://veterummusica.bandcamp.com/album/elizabeths-lutes
2020-06-04 20:09:48 lukee no you bend them one by one from the centre outwards. Each rib is fitted to its neighbour
2020-06-04 20:09:54 ~tiwesdaeg lukee: do you have a link with examples of some of your builds?
2020-06-04 20:10:13 acdw lukee thank you! I'll add it to my long "work notes" email I send to myself
2020-06-04 20:10:24 lukee https://www.orlando-lutes.com/pages/gallery
2020-06-04 20:11:02 ~tiwesdaeg I've really thought about getting in to luthiery as a hobby when I retire
2020-06-04 20:11:30 lukee its great fun - quite absorbing
2020-06-04 20:12:28 ~tiwesdaeg did you learn from someone experienced or just do it the hard way and figure it out along the way?
2020-06-04 20:12:57 acdw those are beautiful lutes!
2020-06-04 20:13:18 ~tiwesdaeg so many courses, so much tuning
2020-06-04 20:13:22 lukee my first one I just made myself. Later I managed to go on a summer school run by David van Edwards who is a master builder in the UK
2020-06-04 20:13:54 lukee he has an online course if you are interested. I can highly recommend it
2020-06-04 20:13:55 lukee https://www.vanedwards.co.uk/renlute.htm
2020-06-04 20:15:10 lukee the "simpler" lutes only have 6 courses. Each is played as a pair, so its no harder to play than the guitar really
2020-06-04 20:15:21 lukee yes some later ones have many more courses (up to 14)
2020-06-04 20:15:36 lukee most players come from the guitar
2020-06-04 20:16:59 lukee there is also The Lute Society which is worth joining
2020-06-04 20:17:00 ~tiwesdaeg my mountain dulcimers have one course only
2020-06-04 20:17:00 lukee https://www.lutesociety.org/
2020-06-04 20:17:23 ~tiwesdaeg plus a couple of single strings
2020-06-04 20:17:25 lukee let me know if I'm going on too much about lutes, I know it is off topic!
2020-06-04 20:17:31 ~tiwesdaeg haha
2020-06-04 20:17:46 ~tiwesdaeg I can talk about stringed instruments all day
2020-06-04 20:18:13 ~tiwesdaeg I play guitar, bass, sorta banjo, mountain dulcimer, ukulele
2020-06-04 20:18:20 ~tiwesdaeg I did have a mandolin for a while
2020-06-04 20:18:23 lukee instrument making is a whole world unto itself
2020-06-04 20:18:43 lukee so now you are ready to take up the lute ;-)
2020-06-04 20:19:00 ~tiwesdaeg if I were only single, I would own so many more instruments ;P
2020-06-04 20:19:38 lukee yup I know that feeling
2020-06-04 20:20:23 makeworld acdw: What client is yours again?
2020-06-04 20:26:05 rak dkibi: Yeah, I came to that realization while outside bagpiping. The MIME RFC simply specifies the canonical format, but the protocol can, in principle allow other stuff.
2020-06-04 20:26:30 acdw makeworld: https://git.sr.ht/~acdw/bollux/
2020-06-04 20:26:36 acdw I have my own secret project ;)
2020-06-04 20:26:41 rak tomasino: Yeah, it looks like a copypasta out of RFC 1945 §3.6.1
2020-06-04 20:31:48 makeworld Oh yeah, that was gonna be my first guess
2020-06-04 20:31:53 makeworld Maybe second
2020-06-04 20:31:54 makeworld Lol
2020-06-04 20:46:53 jan6 is this #gemini or #lutes lol ;P
2020-06-04 20:47:05 lukee #gemini
2020-06-04 20:47:52 lukee everyone has a secret skill - what is yours?
2020-06-04 20:53:23 makeworld Does anyone have any gemini test files online?
2020-06-04 20:53:29 makeworld With all gemini link types, etc
2020-06-04 20:54:54 acdw you mean like different protocols?
2020-06-04 20:55:35 acdw or like the different line types?
2020-06-04 20:56:45 acdw I have all line types but '### ' at gemini.circumlunar.space/users/acdw/2020-06-04-ascii-art-vim.gmi
2020-06-04 21:00:01 lukee acdw: I notice the text on that page has lots of escape codes in it - does that presuppose a certain client will do something with them?
2020-06-04 21:02:01 acdw it's colors!
2020-06-04 21:02:23 acdw yes, terminal clients might display them, I know castor converts some term escapes to colors
2020-06-04 21:02:40 acdw I display them with less -R
2020-06-04 21:03:44 makeworld My secret client does too. It's a terminal client but the library has a function that will convert ANSI codes into a general colour format, so they can work on Windows too
2020-06-04 21:03:55 acdw aww yus
2020-06-04 21:04:08 acdw oh shoot windows doesn't do ansi codes? -_-
2020-06-04 21:04:19 makeworld Pretty sure it doesn't
2020-06-04 21:04:22 acdw that's why bollux is weird on cmder
2020-06-04 21:04:30 acdw it does *something* with them, but it's weirder
2020-06-04 21:04:45 rak makeworld: there are the client stress tests linked to from gemini.circumlunar.space iirc.
2020-06-04 21:04:56 acdw oh yeah, duh! thanks rak
2020-06-04 21:05:14 makeworld Thanks!
2020-06-04 21:05:38 makeworld Oh but that's just the torture test
2020-06-04 21:05:50 makeworld I was hoping for a static document with many different link types
2020-06-04 21:05:55 lukee these term escapes presuppose a terminal client then. As far as the content is concerned they just come down the stream as [47m, [34mfill etc
2020-06-04 21:05:57 makeworld But I'll write it myself, it's trivial
2020-06-04 21:06:05 makeworld lukee: yep
2020-06-04 21:06:27 makeworld But since many people are using it, we have graphical client like Castor that support it anyway
2020-06-04 21:06:35 acdw windows terminal looks like this https://imgur.com/a/3EnLaxD
2020-06-04 21:06:50 acdw lukee: yep! lol
2020-06-04 21:07:03 acdw I'm not going to use it *much*
2020-06-04 21:07:17 acdw and will probably include an option at some point to turn it off
2020-06-04 21:07:52 lukee is there a spec somewhere to know the shape of them. I guess we cant assume any particular client will know what to do with them
2020-06-04 21:08:40 lukee I know they are pretty, but it seems to make specific assumptions about the client that doesnt seem generalisable
2020-06-04 21:11:36 lukee Maybe the solution is to use the "alt text" option on preformatted regions to hint the text is ansi-enhanced
2020-06-04 21:12:02 acdw https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANSI_escape_code#CSI_sequences
2020-06-04 21:12:04 lukee do we know if solderpunk will include that alt text proposal in the next iteration
2020-06-04 21:12:31 acdw You're making a good point, lukee.
2020-06-04 21:12:40 acdw I really hope solderpunk puts the alt text thing in there
2020-06-04 21:12:56 lukee I think it will be good too
2020-06-04 21:13:23 acdw I would be in favor of something in the spec that clients should at least filter out terminal escapes
2020-06-04 21:13:47 acdw and maybe that like nothing but formatting ones (\033[ ... m) should be allowed
2020-06-04 21:13:59 acdw or that clients only have to know those ones, or something
2020-06-04 21:14:27 acdw but at the same time that's going to complicate the spec and be really prescriptive on content,
2020-06-04 21:14:35 acdw maybe it'd work as part of text/gemini
2020-06-04 21:14:46 makeworld It would ruin the line by line thing though
2020-06-04 21:15:01 makeworld I think we should just leave it alone
2020-06-04 21:15:12 makeworld Some client and authors may use it, some may not
2020-06-04 21:15:21 makeworld But I think it's outside the spec
2020-06-04 21:15:44 lukee my own view is they shouldnt be assumed to be interpreted by clients by authors, but can be added to the alt text so those that know what to do with it (and want to) will know when they should do so
2020-06-04 21:16:34 lukee I think the alt text will be good - it could be used to hint certain programming languages and then they can be syntax highlighted
2020-06-04 21:16:51 acdw oh i didn't think about the line-by-line
2020-06-04 21:16:53 lukee if it makes it into the spec!
2020-06-04 21:20:55 lukee this is what you get in non-terminal clients https://imgur.com/a/U8UdeDV
2020-06-04 21:20:55 acdw fingers crossed!
2020-06-04 21:21:09 acdw oh ahahahh! that's great
2020-06-04 21:21:32 acdw that's a good looking client tho
2020-06-04 21:21:43 acdw i like the border around the preformatted block
2020-06-04 21:22:19 makeworld Yeah it sure is
2020-06-04 21:22:25 makeworld I'm jealous of Geminaut
2020-06-04 21:22:28 makeworld Wish it ran on Linux
2020-06-04 21:22:35 acdw yes! it looks SO GOOD
2020-06-04 21:22:41 xq makeworld: i'm hacking together a graphical client based on Qt
2020-06-04 21:22:43 acdw and work won't let me run it :(
2020-06-04 21:22:53 acdw I've been trying to get my wife to install it but she's like "ok babe"
2020-06-04 21:22:57 makeworld Lol
2020-06-04 21:23:00 acdw xq sounds great!
2020-06-04 21:23:02 makeworld xq: Good luck!
2020-06-04 21:23:11 makeworld Make it look as good as geminaut plz
2020-06-04 21:23:19 xq if you want, you can try
2020-06-04 21:23:25 xq makeworld: i want to support a lot of styling
2020-06-04 21:23:46 xq two spoilers:
2020-06-04 21:23:47 xq https://mq32.de/public/e301169efe4e06c420d5c4ace2523e8d1b029073.png
2020-06-04 21:23:58 lukee personally I tend to use the Fabric theme which is even more visual https://imgur.com/a/tAKxWUg
2020-06-04 21:24:04 makeworld Personally I just want it to have good defaults
2020-06-04 21:24:07 makeworld Ooh nice
2020-06-04 21:24:15 acdw oh that's great! Love all the panels
2020-06-04 21:24:35 makeworld Tbh the panels turn me off a bit
2020-06-04 21:24:49 makeworld Because they take up so much real estate even when they're not doing much
2020-06-04 21:24:50 kayw I kinda want to write my own client, but idk where to start lmao
2020-06-04 21:24:56 xq https://mq32.de/public/9a9e8fb02352e4acee2b16c32829130baa1fdefc.png
2020-06-04 21:24:58 xq what panels? :D
2020-06-04 21:25:14 makeworld Ahaha you got me
2020-06-04 21:25:16 xq kayw: read the spec, start hacking
2020-06-04 21:25:20 makeworld It's weird to see my site there
2020-06-04 21:25:22 lukee nice!
2020-06-04 21:25:43 kayw speaking of sites, I should probably announce mine on the ML
2020-06-04 21:25:59 xq you can also collapse the panes
2020-06-04 21:26:00 xq https://mq32.de/public/e19a03d1eab03e01a7f3270d990d90b12702213a.png
2020-06-04 21:26:10 acdw love. it!
2020-06-04 21:26:32 acdw kayw: at least for me the first part is getting an openssl connection.
2020-06-04 21:26:47 makeworld xq: I'd be nice if there was some margin, so that the text doesn't start right at the edge
2020-06-04 21:26:55 acdw most languages have an SSL library, for bash I used 'openssl s_client'
2020-06-04 21:26:55 xq yeah
2020-06-04 21:27:14 xq i just ported it from QWebView to a plain richtext document
2020-06-04 21:27:21 xq way better and faster than dragging a whole browser in
2020-06-04 21:27:22 kayw i was gonna do python, but i'll probably try something else
2020-06-04 21:27:23 xq https://github.com/MasterQ32/kristall
2020-06-04 21:27:29 xq for those who want to check it out
2020-06-04 21:27:42 acdw :D
2020-06-04 21:27:43 xq no official announcement yet, as it's heavily work-in-progress
2020-06-04 21:27:44 xq but!
2020-06-04 21:27:56 ⚡ xq proudly survices the torture suite to 95%
2020-06-04 21:28:00 xq except for the encoding stuff
2020-06-04 21:28:05 lukee do you have any binaries? my cpp compiling skills are limited!
2020-06-04 21:28:24 xq lukee: it should require only Qt5 with build system installed
2020-06-04 21:28:26 xq then you can do
2020-06-04 21:28:42 xq mkdir build; cd build; qmake ../kristall.pro && make
2020-06-04 21:28:45 xq and get a binary
2020-06-04 21:28:55 xq shipping qt is sadly a bit of work
2020-06-04 21:29:07 xq but i could try uploading my binary if you want to try
2020-06-04 21:29:22 lukee I would if its not too much effort
2020-06-04 21:29:47 xq https://mq32.de/public/kristall.x86_64
2020-06-04 21:31:06 lukee erm I just realised you are probably on linux, I'm on windows!
2020-06-04 21:31:23 lukee for my sins
2020-06-04 21:31:50 xq oh well
2020-06-04 21:31:51 xq sorr y:D
2020-06-04 21:31:55 xq no windows builds atm
2020-06-04 21:32:00 xq have to set up a build VM first
2020-06-04 21:32:03 lukee fair enough.
2020-06-04 21:32:10 xq but i want to make it build with CI on github
2020-06-04 21:32:20 xq just need some time
2020-06-04 21:32:40 xq luckily i have so much hours on my time account, i only need to work 2 days next week :D
2020-06-04 21:32:47 xq time to make some *really nice* Gemini client
2020-06-04 21:36:57 xq makeworld: your server doesn't seem to close the connection?
2020-06-04 21:37:23 acdw v nice xq!
2020-06-04 21:37:28 makeworld xq: That's weird? I'm just using Jetforce
2020-06-04 21:37:50 xq oh
2020-06-04 21:37:59 xq i noticed some servers not closing their connection correctly
2020-06-04 21:38:13 xq (means that my client just does not return from a read request)
2020-06-04 21:38:24 xq thanks acdw :)
2020-06-04 21:38:45 makeworld xq: Is that happening reliably?
2020-06-04 21:38:48 xq my plan is to make the nicest cross-platform GUI client for Gemini
2020-06-04 21:38:52 xq makeworld: it seems so, yes
2020-06-04 21:38:53 makeworld Can you test with tilde.black too?
2020-06-04 21:38:58 xq sure thing
2020-06-04 21:39:03 makeworld They're also runnning jetforce I think
2020-06-04 21:39:12 makeworld Also try mozz.us
2020-06-04 21:39:15 xq ack, doesn't work there too
2020-06-04 21:39:24 xq redirection works
2020-06-04 21:39:31 xq but that's because i close the connection
2020-06-04 21:39:36 makeworld Wdym doesn't work. It closes or no?
2020-06-04 21:39:41 xq it doesn't close
2020-06-04 21:39:51 makeworld Hmm yikes
2020-06-04 21:39:57 xq i can make my socket time out, but that seems like a hack
2020-06-04 21:40:34 makeworld I'm gonna file an issue can you chime in?
2020-06-04 21:40:34 xq huh
2020-06-04 21:40:43 xq seems like i receive garbage?
2020-06-04 21:40:47 xq let me investigate further
2020-06-04 21:41:12 makeworld Should I not file the issue yet?
2020-06-04 21:41:41 makeworld xq
2020-06-04 21:41:48 @tomasino hey what's up?
2020-06-04 21:41:50 @tomasino tilde black?
2020-06-04 21:41:54 @tomasino yes, i'm running the latest jetforce
2020-06-04 21:42:20 acdw tomasino are you also using tls 1.2?
2020-06-04 21:42:26 xq wait a second
2020-06-04 21:42:28 @tomasino i have no idea how to answer that question
2020-06-04 21:42:30 makeworld It's just whatever Jetforce supports
2020-06-04 21:42:36 acdw Oh okay lol
2020-06-04 21:42:38 makeworld He and I don't decide what TLS version
2020-06-04 21:42:46 @tomasino :D
2020-06-04 21:42:51 acdw oh I do not understand TLS, lol
2020-06-04 21:43:25 @tomasino me either
2020-06-04 21:43:26 acdw I'm asking b/c bollux is first not getting a response, then getting one -- I'm assuming it's b/c I try tls 1.3 first, then 1.2
2020-06-04 21:43:32 makeworld Afaik, there's a minimum accepted version, and then beyond that the client and server negotiate a version and encryption scheme
2020-06-04 21:43:40 @tomasino oh bollux is installed on tilde.black
2020-06-04 21:43:44 acdw :D
2020-06-04 21:43:52 makeworld So you shouldn't be trying multiple versions
2020-06-04 21:43:57 @tomasino no. i lied
2020-06-04 21:44:01 @tomasino it's installed on cosmic.voyage
2020-06-04 21:44:02 acdw D:
2020-06-04 21:44:04 acdw :D
2020-06-04 21:44:05 @tomasino it doesn't run on bsd yet
2020-06-04 21:44:08 acdw right!
2020-06-04 21:44:10 makeworld You should just try once with a minimum version and your ssl client will handle the rest acdw
2020-06-04 21:44:14 acdw I have to get in touch with you at that
2020-06-04 21:44:20 acdw oh for real?
2020-06-04 21:44:23 @tomasino just need a pubkey & an email
2020-06-04 21:44:33 makeworld acdw: Afaik yep
2020-06-04 21:44:37 acdw gotta generate one @ home tomasino, will tonight if I remember
2020-06-04 21:44:43 @tomasino :D woo
2020-06-04 21:44:44 acdw makeworld: welp.
2020-06-04 21:44:51 acdw hmmm
2020-06-04 21:45:18 acdw Thanks for that info -- I'll need to read the man page for openssl s_client
2020-06-04 21:46:13 acdw do any of yall have a link to like, the TLS spec? Or a primer on SSL in general?
2020-06-04 21:46:20 acdw that would be good to read too
2020-06-04 21:47:09 makeworld :By default s_client will negotiate the highest mutually supported protocol version."
2020-06-04 21:47:40 acdw oh nice!
2020-06-04 21:47:51 acdw well the patch request I got was unnecessary lol
2020-06-04 21:47:55 makeworld acdw: I think you can just provide multiple tls flags at once: -tls1_2 -tls1_3
2020-06-04 21:48:10 makeworld The key thing is that you shouldn't support TLS versions below 1.2
2020-06-04 21:48:54 acdw omg awesome! thanks makeworld
2020-06-04 21:50:19 xq huh
2020-06-04 21:50:27 xq using s_client mozz.us works
2020-06-04 21:50:32 xq but not using QSslSocket or using gurl
2020-06-04 21:50:38 acdw makeworld: When a specific TLS version is required, only that version will be offered or accepted. Only one specific protocol can be given and it cannot be combined with any of the no_ options.
2020-06-04 21:50:48 xq seems like the ssl session is terminated, but not the sock itself
2020-06-04 21:50:57 makeworld So not the server's fault
2020-06-04 21:51:16 acdw So I think if I specify "-no_tls1 -no_tls1_1" I'll be good
2020-06-04 21:51:24 acdw xq that is weird
2020-06-04 21:51:41 makeworld acdw: I don't have that second line in my man page
2020-06-04 21:51:46 makeworld Where is it?
2020-06-04 21:51:55 makeworld Also make sure to do -no_ssl too or whatever
2020-06-04 21:51:56 acdw https://www.openssl.org/docs/manmaster/man1/openssl.html, under TLS Version options
2020-06-04 21:52:02 acdw Yes! Okay awesome
2020-06-04 21:52:18 acdw The manpage doesn't have IDs for the headers :(
2020-06-04 21:52:41 acdw oh it's in man openssl, btw. not openssl-s_client
2020-06-04 21:52:45 makeworld https://www.openssl.org/docs/manmaster/man1/openssl-s_client.html
2020-06-04 21:52:49 makeworld Yep I was just about to say
2020-06-04 21:53:01 acdw b/c many commands use the -tls options
2020-06-04 21:53:48 makeworld Oh yeah I see that now
2020-06-04 21:54:11 makeworld Probably just do: -no_ssl3, -no_tls1, -no_tls1_ then
2020-06-04 21:54:18 acdw :) yes!
2020-06-04 21:54:25 makeworld 👍
2020-06-04 21:54:31 acdw thanks again
2020-06-04 21:56:36 makeworld Happy to help!
2020-06-04 21:56:42 xq ah yes
2020-06-04 21:56:44 xq > QAbstractSocket::RemoteHostClosedError "The TLS/SSL connection has been closed"
2020-06-04 21:56:44 makeworld This IRC channel has been great
2020-06-04 21:56:53 xq it looks like i found the culprit and i can react to that as well
2020-06-04 21:57:43 acdw nice!
2020-06-04 21:57:50 acdw squashing those bugs :0
2020-06-04 21:57:51 acdw :)
2020-06-04 21:59:17 xq yiss
2020-06-04 21:59:18 xq nice, works
2020-06-04 22:02:34 xq and now: gn8!
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2020-06-04 22:05:58 acdw nice!
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2020-06-05 01:56:01 @tomasino okay, cosmic.voyage and tilde.black have favicons now
2020-06-05 01:56:31 @tomasino i tried to use an alt of a detective that looks like a spy, but i dunno how to make the alts work. So instead i used a hole.
2020-06-05 01:56:39 @tomasino cosmic got a rocket
2020-06-05 02:36:31 makeworld tomasino: What do you mean alt?
2020-06-05 03:23:09 ▬▬▶ numilani has joined #gemini
2020-06-05 03:48:29 lick wait gemini can have favicons?
2020-06-05 03:48:49 ironzorg => //favicon.ico
2020-06-05 04:32:21 ironzorg hey, stupid question: why enforce a \r at the end of link lines?
2020-06-05 04:55:24 ℹ gbmor is now known as dosens
2020-06-05 04:57:02 ℹ dosens is now known as gbless
2020-06-05 04:58:14 ℹ gbless is now known as june
2020-06-05 04:59:44 ℹ june is now known as gbm0r
2020-06-05 05:00:00 ℹ gbm0r is now known as gbmor
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2020-06-05 07:08:47 ironzorg a small extension I implemented for fun in my editor's Gemini renderer, thoughts? https://files.catbox.moe/tp3zwo.png
2020-06-05 07:11:39 ironzorg I think these rules would be more logical if all special lines in Gemini started with a space, and lines that don't would always be rendered verbatim - but it extends teh current spec (as an opt-in client rendering functionality) well
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2020-06-05 07:15:04 ironzorg my other rule in the above is that combined decoration operators have to be in the same order on both sides, example _*/`combined_*/` this makes parsing easier
2020-06-05 08:14:04 xq does anyone knows spontaneuos a server that serves an png/jped via gemini?
2020-06-05 08:17:01 @julienxx I have a picture on gemini://typed-hole.org
2020-06-05 08:17:42 xq thanks, looking it up
2020-06-05 08:18:09 @julienxx It's down for a minute
2020-06-05 08:18:24 @julienxx ok back up
2020-06-05 08:19:06 ⚡ xq definitly needs to implement back/forward
2020-06-05 08:19:18 @julienxx first link in random stuff for the picture
2020-06-05 08:27:09 xq thanks!
2020-06-05 08:27:11 xq works :)
2020-06-05 08:27:17 xq Kristall can now display pictures
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2020-06-05 11:42:18 epoch I'm thinking of how I can use some xargs-line program I have to be used as the forwards/backwards list navigator
2020-06-05 11:42:27 epoch xargs-like*
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2020-06-05 13:47:33 makeworld lick: Favicons go against the "one request per page" idea, but anyone could add them or implement them yeah
2020-06-05 13:48:28 makeworld ironzorg: It's interesting, but I like that the text/gemini spec only requires you to look at the first bit of each line. This makes parsing much harder
2020-06-05 13:52:25 ~tiwesdaeg UTF-8 characters as favicons!
2020-06-05 13:53:41 ~tiwesdaeg tilde.pink claims 🕶
2020-06-05 14:00:56 lick lol
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2020-06-05 14:03:36 ironzorg makeworld: I'd argue that it's no more complicated than link lines, whose parsing requires more than looking at the first = sign
2020-06-05 14:04:19 makeworld It's definitely more complicated than that, since you just have to look at the space that breaks the link and link text
2020-06-05 14:04:26 ironzorg but that's fair enough, especially if you want to handle escaping
2020-06-05 14:05:33 ⚡ tiwesdaeg waves at julienxx
2020-06-05 14:06:33 @julienxx hey tiwesdaeg!
2020-06-05 14:06:47 ~tiwesdaeg another exciting gemini day!
2020-06-05 14:07:14 ~tiwesdaeg I'm going to spend most of it laboring in the harsh Mississippi sun, working on the yard
2020-06-05 14:12:23 @julienxx lucky you!
2020-06-05 15:36:08 ▬▬▶ lukee has joined #gemini
2020-06-05 15:36:27 lukee hey folks
2020-06-05 15:36:40 lukee I just wrote my first CGI script for Gemini
2020-06-05 15:36:47 lukee and a short blog post
2020-06-05 15:36:50 lukee gemini://gemini.marmaladefoo.com/blog/5-Jun-2020 - first CGI.gmi
2020-06-05 15:43:20 lukee actually I moved it here (to avoid spaces in URL)
2020-06-05 15:43:21 lukee gemini://gemini.marmaladefoo.com/blog/5-Jun-2020_first_CGI.gmi
2020-06-05 15:56:47 ~tiwesdaeg hey lukee
2020-06-05 15:56:52 ~tiwesdaeg never heard of rebol
2020-06-05 15:57:50 ironzorg everybody on the ML should be writing their emails in text/gemini to see what's lacking better :p
2020-06-05 15:58:19 ~tiwesdaeg who's writing the client that can render it?
2020-06-05 15:59:03 ironzorg render what, it's a markup language, it should be legible without any post-processing
2020-06-05 15:59:35 ~tiwesdaeg of course, but one might want to click the links
2020-06-05 16:00:28 ironzorg that's the terminal's job, or the MUA's
2020-06-05 16:04:04 lukee Rebol is a nice language, but not widely used. Simple syntax, homoiconic like LISP
2020-06-05 16:04:43 lukee Its a server application, so you dont really need to care - the CGI just spits out dynamic GMI for whatever client you want to use
2020-06-05 16:05:26 ⚡ tiwesdaeg uses shell script and python
2020-06-05 16:05:42 ~tiwesdaeg depends one my needs I guess
2020-06-05 16:07:06 lukee Writing emails in text/gemini is just becoming a habit
2020-06-05 16:07:25 lukee It is not far off from how I used to write emails anyway
2020-06-05 16:14:44 lukee Also there are the gemini mailing list archives in geminispace
2020-06-05 16:15:00 lukee so maybe they will be read by a gemini client some day
2020-06-05 17:02:10 jba has quit (Client exited)
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2020-06-05 17:37:50 makeworld Are there any tabbed browsers for Gemini yet?
2020-06-05 17:37:57 makeworld Or will my client be the first ;)
2020-06-05 17:38:13 @tomasino i think the windows one has tabs, doesn't it?
2020-06-05 17:38:20 makeworld Geminaut?
2020-06-05 17:38:59 @tomasino i forget the name. I dismissed it since i don't windows
2020-06-05 17:39:08 makeworld Lol
2020-06-05 17:39:14 makeworld From the screenshots I don't think so
2020-06-05 17:39:17 @tomasino maybe that was on the to-do list or maybe it already has those. i forget
2020-06-05 17:39:28 @tomasino castor doesn't i don't think
2020-06-05 17:39:32 makeworld https://www.marmaladefoo.com/pages/geminaut
2020-06-05 17:39:34 @tomasino castor needs a forward button
2020-06-05 17:39:39 makeworld No Castor doesn't
2020-06-05 17:39:41 makeworld And yeah
2020-06-05 17:39:59 @tomasino and better font wrapping
2020-06-05 17:40:10 @tomasino and.... no, that's it
2020-06-05 17:40:19 @tomasino :D
2020-06-05 17:55:36 makeworld https://sr.ht/~nhanb/mcross/
2020-06-05 17:55:49 makeworld McRossi s often forgot about but seems to be a nice graphical client
2020-06-05 17:55:58 makeworld *McRoss is
2020-06-05 17:56:03 makeworld There's a forward button!
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2020-06-05 18:18:38 dkibi oh that looks nice
2020-06-05 18:19:02 dkibi ok hacked up feedgen does what I want
2020-06-05 18:19:09 dkibi next step: trying out cgi ^^
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2020-06-05 18:33:51 makeworld dkibi: What'd you do to feedgen?
2020-06-05 18:58:59 @julienxx I’m against forward button and tabs :D sorry I like to read slowly and carefully
2020-06-05 19:00:03 @julienxx McRoss looks nice but the README does not make me want to try it, go figure...
2020-06-05 19:00:46 @julienxx (but he’s right)
2020-06-05 19:12:47 makeworld How are you against forward buttons and tabs?
2020-06-05 19:12:51 makeworld I don't get it, sorry
2020-06-05 19:13:13 makeworld I see what you meant about reading carefully, but I don't think they're mutually exclusive
2020-06-05 19:19:36 @julienxx They’re but I just wouldn’t use tabs or forward button I guess :) Forward I could, but honestly never had a moment where I told myself using my tool that I missed it
2020-06-05 19:20:06 @julienxx (They’re NOT indeed, sorry)
2020-06-05 19:31:08 ▬▬▶ kensanata has joined #gemini
2020-06-05 19:31:57 kensanata It's weird to see more people here than I remember seeing on #gopher.
2020-06-05 19:33:18 ▬▬▶ lukee has joined #gemini
2020-06-05 19:50:15 @tomasino hey
2020-06-05 19:50:22 @tomasino welcome kensanata
2020-06-05 19:51:08 @tomasino i sometimes when i'm reading something that references something else i toggle back & forth with back/forward
2020-06-05 19:51:19 @tomasino right now i can back easily, but forward i have to hunt the link down again
2020-06-05 19:51:27 @tomasino minor thing, but that's why i was saying it
2020-06-05 19:59:56 kensanata How does AV-98 know that gus.guru link 2 is a query and knows to ask for input?
2020-06-05 20:00:48 makeworld kensanata: Because the server returns status code 10
2020-06-05 20:01:03 makeworld See the spec for more info: https://gemini.circumlunar.space/docs/spec-spec.txt Also I can tell you :)
2020-06-05 20:01:22 kensanata Ah, status 1!
2020-06-05 20:01:25 makeworld The server returns code 10 and prompt text
2020-06-05 20:01:26 makeworld Yeah
2020-06-05 20:01:43 kensanata I was staring at the URL and wondering: magic!
2020-06-05 20:01:54 makeworld Lol it is pretty magical
2020-06-05 20:15:10 ⚡ jan6 feels like what tomasin said, back and forth P;
2020-06-05 20:36:17 @tomasino hehe
2020-06-05 20:37:01 @tomasino oh, hey, you had a "are you THAT Alex?" moment on the ML. you're internet famous!
2020-06-05 20:37:10 @tomasino love it
2020-06-05 20:59:59 kensanata haha
2020-06-05 21:00:12 kensanata I had to reread it, too.
2020-06-05 21:01:25 wgreenhouse kensanata: oh hey :)
2020-06-05 21:02:17 kensanata Yo!
2020-06-05 21:03:11 xj9 *thinking about building content-addressed file storage on gemini*
2020-06-05 21:09:41 @tomasino I just write stuff
2020-06-05 21:09:49 @tomasino No cool projects
2020-06-05 21:10:05 xj9 writing is cool though
2020-06-05 21:19:26 kensanata It is.
2020-06-05 21:19:45 kensanata I, on the other hand, have stopped writing... Makes me sad!
2020-06-05 21:19:58 xj9 same though
2020-06-05 21:20:06 kensanata All those colony ships in space, lost...
2020-06-05 21:20:34 kensanata At least searching works on my wiki via Gemini, now.
2020-06-05 21:28:35 ▬▬▶ jba has joined #gemini
2020-06-05 21:29:49 makeworld xj9: How would that work, wouldn't that be a different protocol?
2020-06-05 21:30:14 makeworld Like IPFS is a great content-addressed system, but it isn't related to HTTP at all
2020-06-05 21:30:23 makeworld It is an alternative to it in some ways
2020-06-05 21:32:32 xj9 gemini://example.org/bfs/<sha256>
2020-06-05 21:33:15 xj9 its more like a repo format that a protocol, but its quite a bit simpler than http
2020-06-05 21:33:32 xj9 gemini is quite a bit simpler than http
2020-06-05 21:34:42 xj9 maybe like /bfs/<sha256.firstbits>/<sha256.rest> so the fs doesn't cry so much
2020-06-05 21:34:58 @tomasino got a RPG tonight
2020-06-05 21:35:01 @tomasino can't wait!
2020-06-05 21:35:03 xj9 fun
2020-06-05 21:36:05 jan6 at least you write, and at least you have rpgs
2020-06-05 21:38:09 kensanata Thanks
2020-06-05 21:38:18 kensanata RPGs are the best!
2020-06-05 21:38:23 @tomasino agreed
2020-06-05 21:38:31 @tomasino tonight is my game, Fate Core
2020-06-05 21:38:40 jba has quit (Client exited)
2020-06-05 21:39:16 kensanata Do you like the Fate points? That's what drove me away, in the end.
2020-06-05 21:39:24 @julienxx Do you play with friends at a table?
2020-06-05 21:40:18 @tomasino fate points, yeah, they're great. It's how you measure the mechanic of claiming compulsions or negative aspect effects to store up awesome
2020-06-05 21:40:38 @tomasino and then some people creating aspects and others are invoking and the teamwork is awesome
2020-06-05 21:40:49 @tomasino i play on roll20 atm
2020-06-05 21:41:12 @tomasino in fact, the game starts tonight for me at 1am
2020-06-05 21:41:13 @julienxx I played a lot of Shadowrun and Vampire the masquerade but it’s been quite a while
2020-06-05 21:41:31 @tomasino i love fate because i worry about the mechanics AFTER the role play
2020-06-05 21:41:50 @tomasino people describe what they're doing and then I ask for a check or not depending on whether it would be interesting if they fail
2020-06-05 21:42:38 lukee has quit (Ping timeout: 120 seconds)
2020-06-05 21:42:38 @julienxx Looks cool! I should try someday
2020-06-05 21:43:51 kensanata I ran it a few times and even wrote a super short ruleset which we used about two or three times.
2020-06-05 21:43:55 kensanata (In German)
2020-06-05 21:44:59 @tomasino i played fate, fate accellerated, dresden, and now fate core. I love where they've landed with Core
2020-06-05 21:45:20 @tomasino i also play in a pathfinder game, a starwars d20, and a super hero one ... i forget teh system name
2020-06-05 21:58:06 xq what is "dresden" except for a german city?! :D
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2020-06-05 21:58:40 ⚡ xq waves companion_cube
2020-06-05 21:58:44 companion_cube o/
2020-06-05 21:59:10 xq the big question: are you weighted? :D
2020-06-05 21:59:20 kensanata Time for bed over here. Good night y'alls! Stay safe.
2020-06-05 21:59:26 xq gn8!
2020-06-05 21:59:38 kensanata has quit (The TLS connection was non-properly terminated.)
2020-06-05 21:59:50 @tomasino dresden files is a urban fantasy series and they made a setting for it in fate
2020-06-05 21:59:52 xq that quit reason :D
2020-06-05 22:00:02 companion_cube xq: [♥]
2020-06-05 22:00:04 companion_cube of course I am
2020-06-05 22:00:23 xq crazy
2020-06-05 22:00:36 xq really have to continue working on Kristall tomorrow :)
2020-06-05 22:01:12 companion_cube is the protocol still heavily in flux?
2020-06-05 22:02:03 xq the spec was frozen for 3 months and got unfrozen some days ago
2020-06-05 22:02:20 xq mailing list is exploding with usefu and less useful proposals, will be frozen again in some weeks
2020-06-05 22:02:29 companion_cube 😂
2020-06-05 22:02:30 xq so i don't expect muc flux in protocol layer anymore
2020-06-05 22:02:39 xq companion_cube: you know the proposal story from zig :D
2020-06-05 22:02:46 companion_cube oh well :D
2020-06-05 22:03:34 xq good thing i learnt respecting community ideas in zig already :D
2020-06-05 22:03:48 xq and only explore smaller ideas and not like "yeah we have to change everything"
2020-06-05 22:09:15 companion_cube rust manages pretty well with its RFCs, too
2020-06-05 22:09:21 companion_cube it's quite labor intensive, of course
2020-06-05 22:10:09 xq yeah true
2020-06-05 22:12:40 xq for gemini right now it'S pretty much only wild discussions on the ML
2020-06-05 22:12:41 companion_cube I wonder why things are so lenient in the specs, though
2020-06-05 22:12:46 companion_cube like the variable spaces
2020-06-05 22:12:53 xq so feels like zig issues here and there
2020-06-05 22:13:03 companion_cube what, no forge accessible only via gemini:// ? :p
2020-06-05 22:14:31 xq companion_cube: what do you mean by lenient?
2020-06-05 22:14:52 companion_cube well, the spec can be stricter, mandating exactly one space, for example
2020-06-05 22:15:01 xq ah, that's afaik already changed :
2020-06-05 22:20:26 dkibi oh hi companion_cube
2020-06-05 22:21:58 companion_cube o/
2020-06-05 22:23:22 dkibi creepy
2020-06-05 22:23:31 dkibi I wanted to write a little maze generators to try ot cgi
2020-06-05 22:23:33 dkibi for gemini
2020-06-05 22:23:54 dkibi and found the maze algorithms site that was posted on hacker news (~ 3h before it was posted)
2020-06-05 22:24:16 dkibi anyway sleeping time
2020-06-05 22:28:32 @tomasino creeepy
2020-06-05 23:31:44 xj9 hmm a gemini interface to sourcehut could be interesting
2020-06-05 23:32:41 companion_cube pretty cool idea indeed
2020-06-06 00:05:45 makeworld Well the sourcehut creator has a site on Gemini so I think it could happen
2020-06-06 00:05:52 makeworld I forget the URL rn thoughb
2020-06-06 00:10:59 @tomasino That's awesome
2020-06-06 00:25:52 companion_cube oh he does?
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2020-06-06 08:08:29 ironzorg has SP decided to renew his hiatus, after coming back from the first one and instantly getting burned out? :p
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2020-06-06 09:24:43 solderpunk Ahoy!
2020-06-06 09:27:19 ironzorg hi
2020-06-06 09:27:52 solderpunk Thought it was about time I made an appearance here.
2020-06-06 09:28:07 ironzorg the last thing that was said before you joined in was:
2020-06-06 09:28:09 ironzorg ironzorg | has SP decided to renew his hiatus, after coming back from the first one and instantly getting burned out? :p
2020-06-06 09:28:18 ironzorg great timing
2020-06-06 09:28:56 ironzorg and yes, lots of discussions happen here, so you'd be getting instant feedback on anything, better than through the ML :)
2020-06-06 09:29:43 solderpunk Haha, honestly I think it's often instant feedback that I *don't* want, so I can think things over carefully instead of always having to react to feedback :p
2020-06-06 09:29:56 solderpunk I have been having a productive hiatus thus far, working on Molly Brown.
2020-06-06 09:30:26 ironzorg ah, right
2020-06-06 09:31:45 solderpunk Adding CGI and SCGI support, and passing information about client certificates through the varibles, so I can start experimenting with the client cert stuff and decide if I want to make changes.
2020-06-06 09:31:50 solderpunk Which I think I do.
2020-06-06 09:31:57 solderpunk But we'll see.
2020-06-06 09:32:28 solderpunk ironzorg, I don't recognise your nick, have you been posting on the ML with a different name, or do you have a gemini server I might recognise?
2020-06-06 09:33:08 ironzorg neither, just interested in Gemini and thinking about what I would like to see in it
2020-06-06 09:34:05 solderpunk Fair enough!
2020-06-06 09:34:09 ironzorg I'd like to use it purely as a markup language for documentation and µblogging, but I'm missing inline text decorations
2020-06-06 09:34:22 ironzorg and I can see this being heavily discussed/argued upon
2020-06-06 09:34:30 solderpunk Like *this* and _that_?
2020-06-06 09:34:39 ironzorg and /this/ and `that`, exactly
2020-06-06 09:35:27 ironzorg I even played around with a Gemini-based custom markup format, which would address some problems but be completely incompatible http://dpaste.com/12MH0PC
2020-06-06 09:35:38 solderpunk I suspect that some clients might end up handling those themselves, like modern email clients do.
2020-06-06 09:35:44 ironzorg so… I'm just waiting for your amendments in the meantime :)
2020-06-06 09:35:58 solderpunk But I'm wary of speccing them even as an optional thing, because the complexity can easily spiral.
2020-06-06 09:36:07 ironzorg yea
2020-06-06 09:36:12 solderpunk Like, if they're allowed to span multiple words, can they then span multiple lines?
2020-06-06 09:36:21 ironzorg not in my view, c.f. link above
2020-06-06 09:36:48 ironzorg my main concern is the conflict with bullet items, `^<space>*`
2020-06-06 09:37:09 solderpunk Yeah, that's something else I was going to mention.
2020-06-06 09:38:18 ironzorg so, even if clients handle this spontaneously, there's still a gap :)
2020-06-06 09:38:33 ironzorg another topic around here is whether Petite Abeille is trolling :)
2020-06-06 09:39:11 ironzorg and if URL fragments should be used to jump to a # header in the document, as the spec suggests a ToC could be similarly generated by the clients
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2020-06-06 09:41:48 @julienxx Hi solderpunk!
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2020-06-06 09:44:28 solderpunk Hi julien!
2020-06-06 09:44:34 solderpunk Haha, good question about Petite Abeille.
2020-06-06 09:44:41 solderpunk I can't make up my mind.
2020-06-06 09:45:16 solderpunk If they are a troll I am probably playing right into their hands by melting down over data:// URIs.
2020-06-06 09:46:51 ironzorg I'm in the "not a troll" camp, but I don't think any more has to be said about the topic, he's swinging in the water
2020-06-06 09:49:26 solderpunk I have wondered about the fragment thing, too. They would kind of be long and unweildy fragments, though, right?
2020-06-06 09:49:37 solderpunk As they'd pretty much have to be equal to the header text?
2020-06-06 09:49:52 solderpunk Unless we came up with some kind of x.y.z numeric scheme.
2020-06-06 09:50:00 ironzorg as with HTTP, you could do '#' + headline.replace(" ", "-")
2020-06-06 09:50:22 ironzorg #gemini-protocol for "# Gemini Protocol"
2020-06-06 09:54:31 solderpunk I guess that's not so bad.
2020-06-06 09:54:52 ironzorg :)
2020-06-06 10:01:16 ironzorg solderpunk: any idea when you're going to release a new version of the spec?
2020-06-06 10:02:03 solderpunk I may end up doing some changes this weekend
2020-06-06 10:02:22 solderpunk Not to the cert stuff, but getting the `lang` param in, for example.
2020-06-06 10:02:25 ironzorg oh cool
2020-06-06 10:02:39 ironzorg is the spec document versioned anywhere, so we can get diffs across versions?
2020-06-06 10:02:52 solderpunk Changing the list item start from just "*" to "* ", etc.
2020-06-06 10:03:06 solderpunk It is in a git repo, but it's entirely local to the machine it's on.
2020-06-06 10:03:19 solderpunk I have wondered about putting the whole thing somewhere else so people can open issues, make PRs, etc.
2020-06-06 10:03:42 ironzorg I'd be happy even with a readonly repo
2020-06-06 10:03:52 solderpunk But I'm not sure where to do it. The email domain whitelist at tildegit is stopping a lot of folk from contributing, so I don't think I'd want to put it there.
2020-06-06 10:03:57 solderpunk Well, that should be easy enough to do.
2020-06-06 10:04:30 ironzorg people can still use Git to send emails to the ML
2020-06-06 10:04:40 ironzorg send patches*
2020-06-06 10:04:45 solderpunk Yeah, but thanks to GitHub nobody knows how to do that :p
2020-06-06 10:05:05 ironzorg eh
2020-06-06 10:13:10 solderpunk Back in a bit!
2020-06-06 10:13:34 ironzorg see you
2020-06-06 10:18:47 xq oh, hey solderpunk
2020-06-06 10:24:42 lukee hello all
2020-06-06 10:25:29 lukee a +1 from me about the headline id convention, but I'd also lower case that for a common shape
2020-06-06 10:25:51 lukee like this lowercase(headline.replace(" ", "-")) or similar. this seems to be widely used in markdown
2020-06-06 10:26:24 lukee this way is more robust than #head1 #head2 etc
2020-06-06 10:33:33 epoch oh damn, when did solderpunk start using IRC?
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2020-06-06 10:38:19 epoch > content-addressed file storage on gemini
2020-06-06 10:38:35 epoch I was reading about someone doing some content addressed storage..
2020-06-06 10:39:23 epoch also, if you were using a filesystem as the backing for it you could just split the path from the gemini server however you wanted.
2020-06-06 10:39:45 epoch so you wouldn't have to add /s to the actual URL just because of a backend quirk
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2020-06-06 10:49:30 epoch ah, they were using "venti"
2020-06-06 10:49:39 epoch which was made by the plan9 nerds it seems
2020-06-06 10:51:30 epoch they were using it as backing for stuff posted to their pleroma instance
2020-06-06 11:36:21 ⚡ xq just reworked the document rendering of Kristall
2020-06-06 11:36:21 xq https://mq32.de/public/fbaf79f0e4f4cf4b8e61be76cc31922625fd0d24.png
2020-06-06 11:37:17 xq (just changed the color of cross-protocol links so you can see relative/absolute/cross-protocol)
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2020-06-06 11:40:37 solderpunk Ooh, what's Kristall?
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2020-06-06 11:41:35 xq it's a Gemini client based on Qt5 i'm working on
2020-06-06 11:41:52 xq isn't announced on the ML yet as it's not quite ready-to-use
2020-06-06 11:42:21 solderpunk Ah, nice.
2020-06-06 11:42:25 solderpunk Oh, is that a screenshot you just linked?
2020-06-06 11:42:28 xq yes!
2020-06-06 11:42:35 solderpunk Ah, looks nice
2020-06-06 11:42:52 solderpunk Different coloured links indicate same/different host?
2020-06-06 11:42:59 xq yeah
2020-06-06 11:43:13 solderpunk I haven't seen that before, I like it a lot.
2020-06-06 11:43:28 xq if you hover the link, the status bar will show where the link leads
2020-06-06 11:43:39 solderpunk Perfect.
2020-06-06 11:43:49 xq we discussed image inlining yesterday
2020-06-06 11:44:03 xq i want to have a feature that allows you opt-in load image inline into the document
2020-06-06 11:44:11 xq so a link for an image looks like this:
2020-06-06 11:44:21 xq → Some Image [+]
2020-06-06 11:44:33 xq and you can click the [+] to inline the image instead of loading it fullscreen
2020-06-06 11:45:18 solderpunk Where "imageness" is guessed from file extension?
2020-06-06 11:45:43 xq yeah
2020-06-06 11:46:10 xq no additional requests, as designed by our BDFL :D
2020-06-06 11:46:20 solderpunk Haha
2020-06-06 11:47:08 solderpunk Making it an optional thing the user has to explicitly do for each link is fully in keeping with the intended philsoophy. I hope it's not a slippery slope, though, to clients first adding an option to automatically do this, perhaps for trusted domains, and then eventually just doing to always.
2020-06-06 11:47:14 solderpunk But we can't ever stop clients doing that.
2020-06-06 11:47:23 solderpunk So I guess it's no reason not to experiment with less problematic stuff.
2020-06-06 11:47:39 xq yeah
2020-06-06 11:47:58 xq i don't have domain trust built-in yet (so no TOFU, just "accept all")
2020-06-06 11:48:19 xq but it's planned and you should be able to trivially revoke your trust
2020-06-06 11:49:16 solderpunk I'm glad to see more people planning to adopt the TOFU idea.
2020-06-06 11:49:23 xq i really like it
2020-06-06 11:49:32 solderpunk I have, like, a bajillion TOFU-adjacent ideas I want to experiment with, but have been prioritising the basics first.
2020-06-06 11:49:45 xq i'm still thinking about how it would look like for a good client
2020-06-06 11:49:57 solderpunk It's definitely a tricky UI issue.
2020-06-06 11:50:04 xq yeah
2020-06-06 11:50:15 xq i think i'll add several trust levels
2020-06-06 11:50:30 xq like, unattended tofu (just trusts on first use)
2020-06-06 11:50:47 xq tofu with confirmation (does this site looks like the one you wanted to visit)
2020-06-06 11:51:15 solderpunk TOFU with DANE check is something I'm keen to try.
2020-06-06 11:51:43 xq DANE sounds quite good
2020-06-06 11:51:59 solderpunk Also an idea that server admins can pre-announce the fingerprint of their next cert at a well-known URL, and having TOFU clients automatically check that when they notice a trusted cert has one month to go before expiry or something.
2020-06-06 11:52:22 solderpunk Since renewing an expiring cert is the big risk time for TOFU.
2020-06-06 11:52:29 xq yeah
2020-06-06 11:52:37 xq do you have an idea on how to solve the client certificate stuff yet?
2020-06-06 11:52:58 solderpunk Also some kind of Convergence/Perspectives-esque system where a client can query various geographically distributed servers that say whether or not they've seen a fingerprint before.
2020-06-06 11:53:22 solderpunk I am thinking pretty seriously about streamlining the in-protocol support for client certs.
2020-06-06 11:53:45 solderpunk In particular, I've realised that the transient cert idea, as currently specced, totally violates the idea that simple clients can ignore the second digit of a status code and still do the right thing.
2020-06-06 11:54:31 solderpunk I think the in-band transient cert idea is a clever solution in search of a problem, perhaps.
2020-06-06 11:54:52 solderpunk And maybe the stuff in the protocol should be simpler, and good clients should offer transient certs as a feature of their own.
2020-06-06 11:57:17 xq hmm
2020-06-06 11:57:32 xq i really love the idea of using temporary client certs as a replacement for cookies
2020-06-06 11:58:35 solderpunk Me too! But I don't see why, e.g., when a user "deactivates" a cert in their client, the client can't say "Hey, wanna destroy this cert forever?".
2020-06-06 11:59:26 solderpunk Without the requirement that the server signalled it as being transient in the first place.
2020-06-06 11:59:38 solderpunk Basically, let the user make the transient/persistent decision themselves, always.
2020-06-06 11:59:59 xq sounds reasonable
2020-06-06 12:00:11 xq so status code "6x" will have a usage hint
2020-06-06 12:00:12 xq like
2020-06-06 12:00:28 xq 60 Requires client certificate for session management
2020-06-06 12:00:29 xq or
2020-06-06 12:00:38 xq 60 Please authenticate yourself
2020-06-06 12:00:43 solderpunk Something like that.
2020-06-06 12:00:59 solderpunk I still need to think about how to use <META> for 6x statuses.
2020-06-06 12:01:16 xq and using the second number for hinting the client software about the certificate usage
2020-06-06 12:01:29 solderpunk It could convey really useful information, like a path which the certificate should be used for sub-paths of.
2020-06-06 12:01:41 solderpunk Right now, client certs are specced (vaguely!) as being domain-specific.
2020-06-06 12:01:45 solderpunk Which fails badly for multi-user hosts.
2020-06-06 12:01:51 xq true
2020-06-06 12:02:01 solderpunk It would be nice if servers could specify very narrowly applicable certs.
2020-06-06 12:02:02 xq user has a "popup" where they can chose a certificate or create a new one
2020-06-06 12:02:14 solderpunk We don't need to copy the idea of cookies applying for entire domains.
2020-06-06 12:02:51 solderpunk So, possibly the <META> becomes a machine-centric thing (like for 2X or 3x) rather than a human-centric thing.
2020-06-06 12:03:18 xq would be an option as well
2020-06-06 12:03:36 solderpunk In which case it could also specify a suggested duration in days? Overridable by the user always, but a clear way for servers to be able to hint at whether "I expect you to delete this after you fill out htis multi-part form" or "Your identity is permanently tied to this cert, back it up!".
2020-06-06 12:03:49 xq but then you can still provide info like "authenticate yourself" or "provide means to recognize you later"
2020-06-06 12:06:08 solderpunk Yeah, whatever ends up happening with <META> I would like it to be a strong convention that pages linking to resources which return a 6x code make it clear in writing what's going on.
2020-06-06 12:07:19 solderpunk Just about done converting the spec to text/gemini.
2020-06-06 12:07:50 xq uh, nice @ text/gemini
2020-06-06 12:07:57 styan If there is a "permanent association" mode for certificates, what would updating the client certificate possibly look like (eg. to a newer algorithm)?
2020-06-06 12:07:59 solderpunk Because there are no actual links in there, it's easy to convert it to HTML by treating it as Markdown, so the web version of the spec should look a little fancier soon.
2020-06-06 12:08:04 xq and yeah, sounds reasonabe that people should describe what happens
2020-06-06 12:08:38 solderpunk One possibility is that you visit the relevant site with the old cert selected, and visit a menu item designed especially for this purpose.
2020-06-06 12:08:55 solderpunk Which then returns a page with a link to a special URL with a randomly generated token in it.
2020-06-06 12:09:00 xq using a token to refresh it should be possible
2020-06-06 12:09:02 xq yeah
2020-06-06 12:09:08 xq btw
2020-06-06 12:09:12 solderpunk And the first client cert used to visit that URL within the next 60 minutes becomes your "new" identity.
2020-06-06 12:09:33 xq servers may also be able to serve a "20" instead of a "6x" when authentication is required
2020-06-06 12:09:57 xq "This site is here, but authentication is required to display this page. Please enable your user identitiy client certificate and refresh"
2020-06-06 12:10:05 solderpunk Or, the server could use 10 to ask you, while using your old cert, to provide it the fingerprint of a new cert.
2020-06-06 12:10:17 solderpunk That's perhaps a bit less fiddly.
2020-06-06 12:10:52 solderpunk Yeah, CGI apps can definitely do something like that 20 or 60 thing based on whether or not they see the environment variables for a cert.
2020-06-06 12:10:53 xq hm, does anyone of you know a gemini url that serves text/markdown with the correct mime type? :D
2020-06-06 12:10:57 xq my server doesn't recognize .md
2020-06-06 12:12:01 solderpunk Hmm, @kensanta has some, right?
2020-06-06 12:12:30 styan Maybe a status 1[1-9] to indicate a request for a (possibly) automated response would be useful such tasks?
2020-06-06 12:13:29 styan With a machine focused META instead of the human focused prompt.
2020-06-06 12:13:49 xq i don't think that's a good idea
2020-06-06 12:14:11 xq automated responses sound bad to me
2020-06-06 12:14:31 solderpunk Hmm, maybe there isn't text/markdown at Alex's site anymore, I can't find it now.
2020-06-06 12:15:30 styan My thought was just to have "new-fingerprint" instead of "New Certificate Fingerprint? ", but I see the point.
2020-06-06 12:18:29 styan Few enough sites would have a use for long-term certificates like that, so having a more standardized way to update them probably does not *really* matter.
2020-06-06 12:20:09 solderpunk I'm hoping that the most common use for really long-term certs like this is actually for self-hosted apps, where it's easy enough to just change these things yourself.
2020-06-06 12:20:20 solderpunk Like adding a new ssh key to .authorized_keys
2020-06-06 12:21:24 solderpunk The combination of client certs and the 10 status code make it *really* easy to host simple little apps that feel like CLI programs, but only you can access them, you can access them from anywhere, and unlike ssh you don't need to disconnect/reconnect when e.g. turning off a laptop.
2020-06-06 12:21:49 solderpunk Or worry about using screen/tmux etc.
2020-06-06 12:22:04 xq yeah true
2020-06-06 12:22:30 solderpunk I think that could be a nice little niche application for some people.
2020-06-06 12:22:45 styan That idea sounds really neat.
2020-06-06 12:22:46 solderpunk And it's something Gemini does way better than Gopher or the web.
2020-06-06 12:23:12 xq oh btw
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2020-06-06 12:23:29 xq have you thought about my proposal regarding larger data uploads?
2020-06-06 12:24:13 solderpunk I have not, and I'm already panicing :p
2020-06-06 12:24:34 xq haha
2020-06-06 12:24:41 solderpunk (only half joking, tell me about it!)
2020-06-06 12:25:01 xq discussion was some while ago on the ML
2020-06-06 12:25:12 xq about extending "10" to allow larger uploads
2020-06-06 12:25:13 solderpunk Oh, was it you who suggested the idea of server-initiated uploads?
2020-06-06 12:25:25 xq yeah probably :D
2020-06-06 12:25:32 styan As long as there is not an explosion of gemini-games, all doing cert-updating a different way, or not doing it at all. That was the only possibility that I had in my head earlier. :-)
2020-06-06 12:25:50 xq i just noticed that it's probably a stupid idea to do it this way
2020-06-06 12:26:17 xq but i stil like to see some way of uploading larger data via gemini
2020-06-06 12:26:43 xq with client certs, it would allow some cool services similar puush.me or pastebin.com
2020-06-06 12:26:55 solderpunk I'm hoping that after a brief period of exploration, there will be a small number of cert-managing paradigms which are obviously better than the rest, and they can be written up as best practices.
2020-06-06 12:27:55 solderpunk I mean, it would be ugly (which might be a good thing, to discourage frivolous use?), but you could specify some kind of upload-via-Gemini meta-protocol around what's there now, right?
2020-06-06 12:28:16 solderpunk Like the server could issue a 10, you could upload some base64 data, the server could reply with another 10 asking if there's more or that's it, etc.
2020-06-06 12:28:20 styan That seems much, much, more likely than my contrived scenario.
2020-06-06 12:28:32 solderpunk With machine-readable <METAs> by convention.
2020-06-06 12:28:39 xq solderpunk: i mentioned that this is a option that will happen
2020-06-06 12:28:41 solderpunk So you could write an upload program that automated it for you.
2020-06-06 12:29:24 solderpunk I'm not sure how I feel about that option, compared to putting in first-class support for it.
2020-06-06 12:29:34 xq and with only having ~300 byte per request, uploading an image costs 2083 requests :D
2020-06-06 12:29:44 xq just as a reference ^^
2020-06-06 12:30:08 xq (which is a 700k PNG file)
2020-06-06 12:30:24 xq ah wait
2020-06-06 12:30:39 xq misinterpreted some data
2020-06-06 12:30:43 xq still ~1000 requests though
2020-06-06 12:30:44 styan solderpunk: I find it really neat that the problem space for gemini allows for such interesting hacks, but is small enough that I was half way though thinking of the exact same solution!
2020-06-06 12:31:47 xq with TLS overhead, it would take ages compared to an actual upload operation
2020-06-06 12:32:11 solderpunk Fair point.
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2020-06-06 12:32:29 solderpunk Then again, there are lots of reasons Gemini is not a good fit for "large" files, even when just downloading.
2020-06-06 12:32:42 solderpunk No compression, no caching, no resumption of interrupted downloads, etc.
2020-06-06 12:32:51 solderpunk "Keep Gemini files small!" should be a thing.
2020-06-06 12:33:02 solderpunk Although whether or not 700k counts as "large" is debatable.
2020-06-06 12:33:23 xq spec says something about 100 MB which i implemented in my clients as a maximum read size
2020-06-06 12:33:32 xq i would count everything <5MB as small
2020-06-06 12:33:42 xq that's a thing i can even dowload via bad mobile internet connections
2020-06-06 12:33:51 @tomasino solderpunk!!!
2020-06-06 12:33:57 solderpunk Tomasino!!!
2020-06-06 12:34:11 @tomasino Glad you made it in
2020-06-06 12:34:17 solderpunk Tetsuo!!!
2020-06-06 12:34:24 solderpunk Thanks for giving me the push.
2020-06-06 12:34:28 @tomasino Kenada!
2020-06-06 12:35:12 @tomasino My pleasure. I'll have to catch up on the chatter in a bit. I'm out in the countryside today. Waterfalls and rivers
2020-06-06 12:35:31 styan xq: If you want to get really hacky, you could start a gemini server on your local machine, serve it via an onion address, and give the URL to the destination server. :-)
2020-06-06 12:36:18 solderpunk Sounds lovely! Crappy weather here this weekend so I'll be hacking on Gemini most of the time.
2020-06-06 12:37:04 xq styan: that's actually a funny idea, i like it
2020-06-06 12:37:37 xq but i still kinda like the "input expected" thing where the user uploads data when the server requests it
2020-06-06 12:38:28 lukee about the image or content inlining - we just a way to hint to the client. I think it is v important it is user optional not expected
2020-06-06 12:38:37 lukee I put some thoughts here https://github.com/LukeEmmet/GeminiLUACH
2020-06-06 12:38:45 lukee Or maybe something can go in the spec
2020-06-06 12:39:31 xq hey lukee
2020-06-06 12:39:43 solderpunk Hey lukee!
2020-06-06 12:39:51 xq you're the guy with GemiNaut, right?
2020-06-06 12:39:56 solderpunk Yes!
2020-06-06 12:40:17 solderpunk I am such a GemiNaut fan!
2020-06-06 12:40:28 solderpunk I have never before been such a big fan of a program I have never once used :p
2020-06-06 12:41:48 lukee Ha ha
2020-06-06 12:41:52 lukee yes thats me
2020-06-06 12:42:12 lukee Thanks for the positive feedback
2020-06-06 12:42:29 solderpunk I'm really glad to see ideas like TOCs and per-site scheming getting implemented.
2020-06-06 12:44:27 quark has quit (Client exited)
2020-06-06 12:45:29 lukee really I'm just piggy backing on top of html rendering, so its not too hard
2020-06-06 12:45:55 lukee but still it is nice to have your own client to try these things out
2020-06-06 12:46:53 lukee I hope to refactor it a bit so users can provide their own theme
2020-06-06 12:47:20 solderpunk Hmm, maybe I over-estimated how simple using a Markdown processor to turn a text/gemini version of the spec into HTML would be.
2020-06-06 12:48:26 solderpunk Lots of silly little fiddly things keep getting in the way.
2020-06-06 12:48:27 lukee I can try to pull that bit out - it uses rebol, so the GMI to HTML is cross platform
2020-06-06 12:49:22 xq hm
2020-06-06 12:49:30 xq i removed the HTML renderer from my project just yesterday
2020-06-06 12:49:37 xq makes it *way* faster
2020-06-06 12:51:08 lukee in my experience its the networking/TLS that takes the longest part of page lifecycle
2020-06-06 12:51:33 xq it doesnt!
2020-06-06 12:51:42 solderpunk Haha, along with all my advanced-TOFU stuff, I have a tonne of ideas to throw out regarding TLS overhead.
2020-06-06 12:51:47 xq i have implemented QTextDocument and QWebView at the same time
2020-06-06 12:51:54 xq and the text document was roughly 1 sec faster
2020-06-06 12:52:29 lukee huh - different experience over here on windows
2020-06-06 12:54:26 ~tiwesdaeg hey solderpunk, welcome!
2020-06-06 12:55:12 solderpunk Hey tiwesdaeg, thank you!
2020-06-06 12:55:42 solderpunk I guess https://gemini.circumlunar.space/test.html doesn't look too broken now?
2020-06-06 12:56:36 ~tiwesdaeg all the Europeans and Asians getting in on the early chatting
2020-06-06 12:58:06 xq looks good!
2020-06-06 12:58:22 xq i would put something like
2020-06-06 12:58:23 xq =>[<whitespace>]<URL>[<whitespace><USER-FRIENDLY LINK NAME>]<CR><LF>
2020-06-06 12:58:25 xq into preformatted
2020-06-06 12:58:35 solderpunk Oh, did I miss one?
2020-06-06 12:59:00 xq oh
2020-06-06 12:59:10 xq wait, i change the style for your site so i can differentiate :D
2020-06-06 12:59:17 solderpunk Haha, sorry
2020-06-06 12:59:39 xq the first one: v
2020-06-06 12:59:39 xq <URL><CR><LF>
2020-06-06 12:59:42 solderpunk You're right, the current style doesn't suit this new content very well.
2020-06-06 12:59:54 solderpunk Ah, right.
2020-06-06 12:59:56 solderpunk Hmm.
2020-06-06 13:00:56 ℹ Mode #gemini [+o solderpunk] by ChanServ
2020-06-06 13:01:26 ~tiwesdaeg looks like you registered your nick ;P
2020-06-06 13:02:10 @solderpunk Oh dear, I certainly haven't.
2020-06-06 13:02:16 ~tiwesdaeg hmm
2020-06-06 13:02:22 ~tiwesdaeg who knows then
2020-06-06 13:02:49 ~tiwesdaeg I thought chanserv only performed autoop on registered nicks
2020-06-06 13:06:19 ~tiwesdaeg xq: do you have your client on a public git site?
2020-06-06 13:06:39 xq https://github.com/masterQ32/kristall
2020-06-06 13:06:45 xq no binaries provided atm
2020-06-06 13:07:14 xq the outline generation just breaks atm in some cases :D
2020-06-06 13:07:21 ~tiwesdaeg I don't think anyone is providing binaries except on windows
2020-06-06 13:07:23 ⚡ xq started writing another client torture suite
2020-06-06 13:07:56 @solderpunk Popping out for a bit again!
2020-06-06 13:08:34 ~tiwesdaeg have a good one
2020-06-06 13:09:45 xq ha!
2020-06-06 13:09:47 xq it works!
2020-06-06 13:09:58 xq i can now differentiate between 6 classes of links :D
2020-06-06 13:11:44 ~tiwesdaeg xq: can you point me towards an instruction on how to compile qt5?
2020-06-06 13:12:08 lukee hi folks got to go - catch up again soon
2020-06-06 13:12:47 xq tiwesdaeg: I have just installed it from my distro distribution
2020-06-06 13:12:59 xq and then using qmake/make for building the actual program itself
2020-06-06 13:13:04 xq what distro are you using?
2020-06-06 13:13:19 ~tiwesdaeg netbsd
2020-06-06 13:13:44 ~tiwesdaeg you have to generate a Makefile first?
2020-06-06 13:14:38 xq yeah
2020-06-06 13:14:46 xq qt is using qmake as a precompiler/project file system
2020-06-06 13:15:41 ⚡ tiwesdaeg is installing the qt5 meta package
2020-06-06 13:16:03 xq if you figure out how it works on netbsd, i'd love to include a installation instruction :)
2020-06-06 13:16:29 ~tiwesdaeg I've been able to figure out most gemini software
2020-06-06 13:16:54 ~tiwesdaeg it always takes a bit to learn how to compile a new language
2020-06-06 13:16:59 styan tiwesdaeg: If you are using LibreSSL, qt5's network layer will not work.
2020-06-06 13:17:22 ~tiwesdaeg I learned a lot about go by trying to smash and openbsd based program in to working for netbsd
2020-06-06 13:18:04 ~tiwesdaeg openssl is installed
2020-06-06 13:18:20 ~tiwesdaeg I'm pretty sure I needed it for one of the rust programs
2020-06-06 13:26:04 xq hm
2020-06-06 13:26:26 xq i using agate for serving my gemini site
2020-06-06 13:26:32 xq and it looks like it breaks some time
2020-06-06 13:33:32 ~tiwesdaeg ok, getting a build error on QWidget
2020-06-06 13:34:07 ~tiwesdaeg I've got every QT5 package installed, so I'm going to have to dig around
2020-06-06 13:36:24 xq huh
2020-06-06 13:36:30 xq when building qt or kristall=
2020-06-06 13:39:04 ~tiwesdaeg kristall
2020-06-06 13:39:14 makeworld solderpunk Woah, glad to have you here
2020-06-06 13:39:18 ~tiwesdaeg I don't even know what I am doing really
2020-06-06 13:39:46 ~tiwesdaeg I ran qmake -project, but I'm guessing that's just to initiate a new project
2020-06-06 13:39:48 makeworld Also about the linking to headers, there's an existing standard we should probably just reuse: https://docs.gitlab.com/ee/user/markdown.html#header-ids-and-links
2020-06-06 13:40:13 ~tiwesdaeg then I just ran qmake kristall.pro and then gmake
2020-06-06 13:40:30 ~tiwesdaeg netbsd generally needs gmake run on linux projects
2020-06-06 13:40:53 xq tiwesdaeg:
2020-06-06 13:40:58 ~tiwesdaeg its own verson of make has different standards
2020-06-06 13:41:00 xq in the project directory:
2020-06-06 13:41:08 xq mkdir build; cd build; qmake ../kristall.pro; make -j
2020-06-06 13:41:23 ~tiwesdaeg ahhh
2020-06-06 13:41:25 ~tiwesdaeg ok
2020-06-06 13:41:38 ~tiwesdaeg I've this once before, with ddate
2020-06-06 13:43:21 ~tiwesdaeg xq: still getting a ../browsertab.hpp:4:10: fatal error: QWidget: No such file or directory
2020-06-06 13:43:27 xq huh
2020-06-06 13:43:41 xq weird, seems like it's missing a qt installation?!
2020-06-06 13:43:53 styan I made wrote a gmi2html converter, because I literally can not resist AWK: https://paste.tildeverse.org/?751148ebfb76ed07#3nHcFKVqhPt3sLd3YV4Lj8MmnrxJkpyjJzc9LyNA66Uh
2020-06-06 13:43:54 ~tiwesdaeg netbsd being weird again
2020-06-06 13:44:01 styan s/made//
2020-06-06 13:44:05 styan bad delete
2020-06-06 13:45:32 ⚡ xq screams over his stupidity
2020-06-06 13:47:00 xq i've read network data byte by byte
2020-06-06 13:47:09 xq i've stopped doing this
2020-06-06 13:47:14 xq now suddenly everything is fsat
2020-06-06 13:47:46 styan xq: Kristall compiles and runs on FreeBSD.
2020-06-06 13:47:51 makeworld Good fix lol :)
2020-06-06 13:48:18 xq styan: whoo! \o/
2020-06-06 13:48:26 xq can do requests? :D
2020-06-06 13:48:38 styan It loaded the default page, so yes?
2020-06-06 13:48:40 xq this means i can add one OS to the list of supported operating systems
2020-06-06 13:48:57 lick are there any open source gemini to http proxies?
2020-06-06 13:50:02 styan xq: C++ is (un?)fortunately more portable than Zig :-)
2020-06-06 13:50:08 ~tiwesdaeg styan: any weird issues with missing dependencies?
2020-06-06 13:50:25 xq styan: c++ is way more mature than zig
2020-06-06 13:51:16 styan tiwesdaeg: No, sorry.
2020-06-06 13:52:28 styan xq: I know, I was just lightly teasing Zig :-)
2020-06-06 13:52:43 xq i was triggered shortly :D
2020-06-06 13:52:49 xq but you are right ^^
2020-06-06 13:55:07 styan tiwesdaeg: It is linked against Qt5Widgets, Qt5Gui, and Qt5Network if that helps.
2020-06-06 13:56:08 makeworld Hey you know what I noticed last night?
2020-06-06 13:56:23 makeworld Markdown documents now vastly outnumber gemini document on Gemini now
2020-06-06 13:56:27 ~tiwesdaeg libQt5Widgets.so
2020-06-06 13:56:30 makeworld Thanks to one man and his wiki site
2020-06-06 13:56:41 ~tiwesdaeg I do have that
2020-06-06 13:56:52 ~tiwesdaeg hmmm
2020-06-06 13:57:09 makeworld Nearly two times more MD then gmi
2020-06-06 13:57:15 makeworld gemini://gus.guru:1965/statistics
2020-06-06 13:57:51 makeworld gemini://alexschroeder.ch:1965/ is the culprit
2020-06-06 14:00:32 styan xq: Kristall looks good so far, it would be interesting when you have styling and I can get rid of the header colors :-)
2020-06-06 14:00:48 xq styan: working on it!
2020-06-06 14:00:50 xq in the moment!
2020-06-06 14:00:57 xq colors are just debugging colors atm
2020-06-06 14:01:11 xq i'd like to explore "light/dark color schemes deduced by host name"
2020-06-06 14:01:13 xq a bit
2020-06-06 14:01:19 xq and i need configurable styling for this anyways
2020-06-06 14:01:35 styan Would tilde.black automatically be light-on-black?
2020-06-06 14:01:50 xq haha :D
2020-06-06 14:01:59 makeworld I'm thinking about italicizing quote lines in my client
2020-06-06 14:02:01 xq (domain.contains("black")) { theme = dark; }
2020-06-06 14:02:07 xq oh btw
2020-06-06 14:02:15 xq makeworld, thanks for embedding ansi escapes in your site!
2020-06-06 14:02:23 xq i can now write text to strip them :D
2020-06-06 14:02:27 xq *tests
2020-06-06 14:02:27 makeworld Haha, you're welcome?
2020-06-06 14:02:28 ~tiwesdaeg -I/usr/pkg/qt5/include/QtWidgets in the makefile include section got me further
2020-06-06 14:02:35 makeworld Hey, process them instead! Lol
2020-06-06 14:02:39 ~tiwesdaeg qmake didn't generate that
2020-06-06 14:02:57 ~tiwesdaeg now it's failing on QSslSocket
2020-06-06 14:03:54 xq probably the same thing…
2020-06-06 14:04:37 ~tiwesdaeg it's not in /usr/pkg/qt5/include like QTWidgets
2020-06-06 14:05:20 ~tiwesdaeg found it
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2020-06-06 14:08:20 ~tiwesdaeg #include "ui_browsertab.h" ?
2020-06-06 14:08:47 xq that should be generated by qmake on the call
2020-06-06 14:09:04 xq it's in the same directory where you called qmake
2020-06-06 14:09:25 ~tiwesdaeg qmake is not behaving normally ;P
2020-06-06 14:10:37 xq seems so
2020-06-06 14:12:49 ~tiwesdaeg version is 5.14.1
2020-06-06 14:13:41 makeworld I was thinking about putting 5 MiB as the limit for pages in my client, before it brings up a prompt at least
2020-06-06 14:13:59 xq tiwesdaeg: that sounds okay to me
2020-06-06 14:18:05 ~tiwesdaeg ok so... I just pulled a clean copy and built it the right way from the get go
2020-06-06 14:18:09 ~tiwesdaeg and it worked just fine
2020-06-06 14:18:25 ~tiwesdaeg I over complicated things by messing it up in the first
2020-06-06 14:18:36 ~tiwesdaeg so, it works on netbsd!
2020-06-06 14:18:56 xq \o/
2020-06-06 14:19:21 ~tiwesdaeg ahhhhh, the link mouse icon points the wrong way!
2020-06-06 14:20:30 xq :D
2020-06-06 14:20:37 ~tiwesdaeg back button isn't working for me
2020-06-06 14:21:14 xq yep
2020-06-06 14:21:19 xq it's not implemented yet
2020-06-06 14:21:33 xq still pondering about how to implement back/forth
2020-06-06 14:21:42 xq welll, "back" is easy
2020-06-06 14:21:50 xq but forward makes the stuff a bit more complicated
2020-06-06 14:21:52 xq i think i have a solution
2020-06-06 14:21:57 xq but that will have to wait until styling
2020-06-06 14:22:07 makeworld What's that? I want to implement this too
2020-06-06 14:22:11 ~tiwesdaeg I like the cert section
2020-06-06 14:22:17 ~tiwesdaeg you know, when you get ti work
2020-06-06 14:22:57 ~tiwesdaeg I don't think any other client makes certs visible in the browser
2020-06-06 14:23:30 xq hehe
2020-06-06 14:23:32 xq thanks
2020-06-06 14:23:40 xq but yeah, gemini is about user control and transparency
2020-06-06 14:23:51 xq and i want to make a client that is inheriting these thoughts
2020-06-06 14:24:09 xq makeworld: when navigating forward, you don't change history, but only move a pointer where in history you are
2020-06-06 14:24:18 xq when then navigating somewhere else
2020-06-06 14:24:29 makeworld Couldn't you just have an array of URLs? And when they go forward, you slice the array up to the that point and add the new url to the end
2020-06-06 14:24:31 xq you cut everything from the "future" history and start anew
2020-06-06 14:24:32 makeworld Hmm
2020-06-06 14:24:41 xq same thought i think :D
2020-06-06 14:24:43 makeworld Ah that's sort of what I said, I think
2020-06-06 14:24:46 ~tiwesdaeg xq: also, being able to click and load a url from the history pane
2020-06-06 14:24:47 makeworld Lol :)
2020-06-06 14:25:16 xq tiwesdaeg: should work already, right?
2020-06-06 14:25:27 ~tiwesdaeg not for me
2020-06-06 14:25:32 xq okay, then it's not done yet :D
2020-06-06 14:25:33 ~tiwesdaeg I tried single and double click
2020-06-06 14:25:35 ~tiwesdaeg right click
2020-06-06 14:26:01 xq yeah
2020-06-06 14:26:10 xq there's a reason i didn't announce it on the ML yet :D
2020-06-06 14:26:21 xq but we can get to a usable state today i think
2020-06-06 14:27:33 ~tiwesdaeg I'll try a build on openbsd later today
2020-06-06 14:28:14 ~tiwesdaeg we get that working and you support the trifecta of BSDs
2020-06-06 14:29:41 xq nice
2020-06-06 14:44:00 xq styan: https://mq32.de/public/f50ed2451652af4105d50c92849e4856a17f57ed.png
2020-06-06 14:44:09 xq setting the font works now :)
2020-06-06 14:47:13 makeworld Different stylings for different types of links.. cool
2020-06-06 14:47:17 makeworld I might steal that
2020-06-06 14:49:23 ~tiwesdaeg nice
2020-06-06 14:49:29 jba has quit (Client exited)
2020-06-06 14:49:37 ~tiwesdaeg ok, I need to go finish mowing
2020-06-06 14:49:59 ~tiwesdaeg I'll be back in a few hours to try out the openbsd compile
2020-06-06 14:51:05 xq whoo, thanks! :)
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2020-06-06 15:06:04 rak Has the gemini server on gemini.circumlunar.space been upgraded in the past day? My WIP client was working with it yesterday, but I'm suddenly getting unexpected_message alerts.
2020-06-06 15:09:19 makeworld What would be causing those?
2020-06-06 15:14:06 rak Not sure, either I'm sending an "inappropriate message", or I'm receiving one (I don't yet understand the OCaml TLS implementation well enough to figure which). I do manage to connect to a local openssl s_server without issues. It's very mysterious.
2020-06-06 15:14:10 rak https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5246#section-7.2.2
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2020-06-06 15:32:51 @solderpunk Hey rak - Molly Brown has undergone a *lot* of work in the past 36 hours or so, which is almost certainly the cause of what you're noticing!
2020-06-06 15:33:06 @solderpunk It could *easily* be a bug I've introduced on my end.
2020-06-06 15:33:18 @solderpunk If you can figure out exactly what is going on, please let me know.
2020-06-06 15:35:41 @solderpunk And speaking of change at gemini.circumlunar.space...
2020-06-06 15:35:55 @solderpunk The spec, FAQ and best practices document are now all being served as text/gmi.
2020-06-06 15:36:14 @solderpunk The stuff being served on https:// is converted from the original with a markdown tool and little bit of sed patching.
2020-06-06 15:36:25 @solderpunk The stuff being served on gopher:// is converted from the original using fmt.
2020-06-06 15:36:49 @solderpunk I *think* everything is looking fairly nice on all three protocols now, but testing is very welcome, especially in graphical Gemini clients.
2020-06-06 15:37:13 @solderpunk URLs have changed (.txt becomes .gmi or .html depending on protocol, and spec-spec is now just specification).
2020-06-06 15:37:29 @solderpunk Via gemini:// you should get status 30 redirects from the old URLs, so bookmarks etc. should still work.
2020-06-06 15:37:45 @solderpunk The .txt https:// URLs should still work too.
2020-06-06 15:38:06 @solderpunk But, in general, testing of bookmarks/links/etc is very welcome.
2020-06-06 15:47:33 rak solderpunk: I'll get the molly brown source and try to git bisect it and find out which commit is causing the change in behaviour, thanks!
2020-06-06 15:49:45 makeworld The homepage still links to the txt versions tw
2020-06-06 15:49:48 makeworld *btw
2020-06-06 15:51:36 @solderpunk lol, thanks, nice catch!
2020-06-06 15:51:48 @solderpunk Wait.
2020-06-06 15:51:53 @solderpunk Which homepage
2020-06-06 15:51:53 @solderpunk ?
2020-06-06 15:57:25 ~tiwesdaeg the links work for me
2020-06-06 15:58:26 xj9 oi solderpunk
2020-06-06 15:58:50 @solderpunk Sempai~!
2020-06-06 15:58:54 @solderpunk So glad you're here.
2020-06-06 15:59:02 @solderpunk Tell me about this rlog thing.
2020-06-06 16:00:26 @solderpunk Or link me to a blog post, if you've made one and I missed the toot.
2020-06-06 16:08:10 xq solderpunk: i'm playing around with auto-themeing atm
2020-06-06 16:09:21 makeworld solderpunk: gemini.circumlunar.space
2020-06-06 16:09:32 makeworld The links on there don't go to an HTML page
2020-06-06 16:09:47 @solderpunk At https://gemini.circumlunar.space?
2020-06-06 16:10:01 @solderpunk They should, and do for me...
2020-06-06 16:10:28 @solderpunk xq: nice, what sort of things are you changing?
2020-06-06 16:10:40 xq color theme atm
2020-06-06 16:11:37 ~tiwesdaeg user customizable?
2020-06-06 16:12:09 @solderpunk Are you finding it difficult to programmatically generate a large number of colour combinations that don't look too hideous?
2020-06-06 16:12:21 makeworld Whoops, I just had to clear my cache sorry
2020-06-06 16:12:25 xq nah
2020-06-06 16:12:30 makeworld Lookingg very nice
2020-06-06 16:12:30 xq i'm a graphics/shader coder
2020-06-06 16:12:35 xq math and color is the same thing for me :D
2020-06-06 16:12:40 xq right now i'm only playing with HSL
2020-06-06 16:12:54 xq and just make a 2-color palaette based on the hue and hue + 180°
2020-06-06 16:13:24 @solderpunk Oh, right, you're the demoscener?
2020-06-06 16:13:59 @solderpunk makeworld: Ah, glad it's working.
2020-06-06 16:14:10 xq yeah!
2020-06-06 16:14:13 @solderpunk I toned down the retro theming a bit, I don't think it worked super well for long, detailed documents.
2020-06-06 16:14:29 makeworld The red bg was a bit hard to read, yeah
2020-06-06 16:16:14 @solderpunk Now that everything's in text/gemini and the conversions are all automated, I can make some changes to the spec and FAQ tomorrow.
2020-06-06 16:18:21 ironzorg yea I floated the idea that emails could be written in text/gemini, to see what the spec would be lacking better
2020-06-06 16:18:32 ironzorg on the ML that is
2020-06-06 16:21:44 @solderpunk That's what I write actual Gemini content for :p
2020-06-06 16:22:19 ironzorg great, it seems that most of the vocal community is focused on doing web stuff with it >)
2020-06-06 16:22:26 ironzorg :)
2020-06-06 16:24:31 xq generating a lot of color schemes: https://mq32.de/public/kristall-01.mp4
2020-06-06 16:25:33 @solderpunk Aah, that looks friggin' sweet!
2020-06-06 16:25:42 xq thanks!
2020-06-06 16:25:52 xq wasn't that hard actually
2020-06-06 16:25:53 @solderpunk I look forward to being able to try it out.
2020-06-06 16:25:58 ironzorg xq: what's this "local link" thing
2020-06-06 16:26:09 xq ironzorg: referring to the same or another domain/host
2020-06-06 16:26:21 ironzorg yea I assume it's -> but is that standard?
2020-06-06 16:26:24 xq "hash domain name, use bytes as a hsl angle, use that for color stuff"
2020-06-06 16:26:35 xq ironzorg: it's just a way to display links ;)
2020-06-06 16:26:46 ironzorg oh it's a display thing, right!
2020-06-06 16:26:59 ironzorg cool idea
2020-06-06 16:27:02 xq using a link referring to the same domain/host is using →, a link to an extern host displays a ⇒
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2020-06-06 16:28:22 xq now i have to figure out how/where to store settings with Qt
2020-06-06 16:32:18 ironzorg solderpunk: ever considered using whatever follows ^``` for anything at all?
2020-06-06 16:45:41 jan xq: your colorscheme dialog looks nice!
2020-06-06 16:47:08 jan is there a changelog of the gemini spec somewhere? that would be nice for implementors
2020-06-06 16:47:54 @solderpunk jan: I will try to get around to setting up the git daemon on gemini.circumlunar.space so people can check out copies of the repo with the spec and other documents in it.
2020-06-06 16:48:13 @solderpunk ironzorg: Yeah, there's still big ongoing discussion about using that text for something like "alt text".
2020-06-06 16:49:23 jan solderpunk: thanks :)
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2020-06-06 16:52:29 xq jan: thanks!
2020-06-06 16:54:38 ironzorg solderpunk: underwhelming, any other ideas? :p
2020-06-06 16:59:59 xj9 solderpunk: rlog is a simple append-only log format with some crypto verficication built in
2020-06-06 17:00:06 xj9 verification
2020-06-06 17:00:12 xj9 however that spelt
2020-06-06 17:01:03 xj9 here's an example log file: https://paste.sunshinegardens.org/%7Exj9/076ca208d1b570358ff82c8308dcb75625e8637f
2020-06-06 17:01:51 xj9 its based on tsv, here's the record format: https://git.sunshinegardens.org/~xj9/bbnet/tree/master/rlog/rlog#L174
2020-06-06 17:02:16 @solderpunk Kind of like an ultralight ssb?
2020-06-06 17:02:19 xj9 ye
2020-06-06 17:02:29 xj9 with nothing to say about network, just the log format
2020-06-06 17:02:35 @solderpunk Right.
2020-06-06 17:03:00 @solderpunk Any exciting applications you have in mind?
2020-06-06 17:04:19 xj9 i tend to gravitate to replicated wikis and discussion forums
2020-06-06 17:04:50 xj9 rlog+bfs is meant to be a general purpose thing though
2020-06-06 17:05:35 xj9 networking generally is secondary, i want to have a really stellar sneakernet workflow
2020-06-06 17:06:30 @solderpunk Fair enough.
2020-06-06 17:06:44 @solderpunk Might be a neat thing to build tiny Gemini apps around, though.
2020-06-06 17:07:16 xj9 i think it fits well, simple hackable &c.
2020-06-06 17:08:23 @solderpunk Yeah, seems like a natural pairing.
2020-06-06 17:08:32 xj9 <3
2020-06-06 17:10:38 @solderpunk ironzorg: tbh, underwhelming is the perfect use for that space! Right now you can chain together consecutive ``` lines and put whatever you like after them knowing it will never be displayed by a compliant client.
2020-06-06 17:11:00 @solderpunk This is an easy way for people to hack in arbitrary extension syntax, which I definitely want to nip in the bud.
2020-06-06 17:11:12 xj9 i'm trying to fit everything into an ESP32 and i think gemini is smol enough for that.
2020-06-06 17:11:23 @solderpunk Yeah, somebody has already done it!
2020-06-06 17:11:29 xj9 noice
2020-06-06 17:12:09 @solderpunk It was slow as heck, apparently, but I think they were using large RSA keys. Might be more feasible with a smarter choice of cert and ciphersuite.
2020-06-06 17:13:21 xj9 i'll need to benchmark rlog on one of these too, currently using ed25519 which *should be* ok
2020-06-06 17:15:12 @solderpunk I've been wondering whether the Gemini best practices document should suggest clients or servers prefer (or have an option to prefer) ChaCha20 over AES to make RPis and other smol compies happier.
2020-06-06 17:15:26 @solderpunk Since, again, they seem a kind of natural pairing with Gemini.
2020-06-06 17:19:17 makeworld They definitely are yeah
2020-06-06 17:19:42 makeworld I mean there's no harm in suggesting it. Most people won't dive that deep into TLS settings though
2020-06-06 17:19:57 makeworld It might not even be possible with many libraries
2020-06-06 17:22:09 @solderpunk I think it should be.
2020-06-06 17:22:33 @solderpunk I'm loving Go's TLS and general crypto libraries so far, incidentally.
2020-06-06 17:22:44 @solderpunk Compared to Python's standard ssl module it's an absolute dream.
2020-06-06 17:26:12 makeworld Yeah it's been great for me too, very simple. The one trip-up for clients is you have to make it insecure and then check stuff manually
2020-06-06 17:26:59 makeworld Oh this reminds me, I sent you an email about the library I forked, could you add it to the software list?
2020-06-06 17:27:12 @solderpunk Oh yeah, sorry, I forgot about that.
2020-06-06 17:29:13 @solderpunk Done
2020-06-06 17:29:58 @solderpunk Once the spec settles down a bit, I'll have to go through and find stuff in that software list which isn't being maintained, maybe submit patches if I know the language, but eventually remove old cruft.
2020-06-06 17:30:30 @solderpunk The downside of Gemini being so simple is people discover it, get excited, write and release something over a weekend, then forget about it forever after.
2020-06-06 17:32:12 makeworld Thanks! And that sounds good
2020-06-06 17:32:23 makeworld Yeah, I guess it's easy to do that
2020-06-06 17:32:53 makeworld To be honest, I think it might be good to keep them on the list but in a diff section, marked as OLD or something
2020-06-06 17:33:02 @solderpunk If anybody has good graphics skills and wants to make me extremely happy, I'd love to see a parody of this logo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smiling_Sun
2020-06-06 17:33:14 @solderpunk Where instead of "Nuclear power?" it says "HTTP+HTML+CSS?"
2020-06-06 17:33:20 makeworld Oh also I have to ask: What client(s) do you use?
2020-06-06 17:33:49 @solderpunk And instead of the smiling sun it has the orange Gemini capsule from here: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0e/Gemini_12_insignia.png
2020-06-06 17:34:01 makeworld Haha that would look great
2020-06-06 17:34:02 @solderpunk Just AV-98 on the reg.
2020-06-06 17:34:13 makeworld Nice, that was my guess
2020-06-06 17:34:28 @solderpunk I have a small crush on McRoss, though.
2020-06-06 17:34:42 makeworld It does look pretty nice yeah
2020-06-06 17:34:50 @solderpunk The author and I exchanged a few emails, I hope they keep developing it.
2020-06-06 17:34:56 makeworld Geminaut still wins imo *sigh*
2020-06-06 17:34:59 makeworld Oh nice
2020-06-06 17:35:27 @solderpunk Tkinter GUIs make me nostalgic for my early Python hacking days.
2020-06-06 17:35:45 @solderpunk Yeah, Geminaut is like the first time I've been jealous of Windows-only software in I don't know how long.
2020-06-06 17:36:03 xq what's the cool thing about geminaut? :D
2020-06-06 17:36:14 xq so i can provide us linux dudes with the same features in kristall!
2020-06-06 17:36:33 @solderpunk I think you are already mostly there with the per-site scheming stuff.
2020-06-06 17:36:43 @solderpunk But I also like that it does TOC generation.
2020-06-06 17:36:43 makeworld The styling and interface are really attractive. The site text is inset and has large margins around it. It looks fresh and modern
2020-06-06 17:36:49 makeworld But not like Electron
2020-06-06 17:37:15 makeworld You doing the same for Linux would be great!
2020-06-06 17:38:30 makeworld The margins are important I think. So the text is away from other things and stands out
2020-06-06 17:39:33 @solderpunk I was also really impressed at the heuristics GemiNaut uses to figure out when to apply a differnet scheme, so that different users at tildes don't all end up with the same theme.
2020-06-06 17:39:56 @solderpunk It recognises, IIRC, ~username and users/username in URLs.
2020-06-06 17:41:24 xq oh, neat
2020-06-06 17:41:31 makeworld There's different themes per page?
2020-06-06 17:41:34 xq that's an idea i can incorporate
2020-06-06 17:41:42 makeworld I thought it was just the icon thing
2020-06-06 17:41:55 @solderpunk No, it changes the colour of the background too, if I understand rightly.
2020-06-06 17:42:07 makeworld Huh
2020-06-06 17:42:27 xq solderpunk: i have (broken) outline generation as well
2020-06-06 17:42:35 xq it's on the todo for today to make Kristall usable
2020-06-06 17:42:52 makeworld Sounds good :)
2020-06-06 17:43:02 @solderpunk In general I am just really excited that, instead of complaining about how text/gemini doesn't support various fancy features, somebody has taken full advantage of the fact that styling is up to the client to make Gemini content look good and to clearly provide important information to the user.
2020-06-06 17:43:32 makeworld Yeah it's a pretty cool reversal of the web paradigm
2020-06-06 17:43:38 makeworld A future post?
2020-06-06 17:44:14 xq yeah i love client themeing too
2020-06-06 17:44:24 ⚡ xq has always a userstyle plugin in his browsers
2020-06-06 17:44:52 ▬▬▶ kensanata has joined #gemini
2020-06-06 17:47:43 ~tiwesdaeg solderpunk: I could probably pull that off in inkscape
2020-06-06 17:48:56 makeworld You might have to trace some stuff but having an SVG would be worth it
2020-06-06 17:49:29 @solderpunk I mean, no pressure at all. I just thought it would be super cool and failed miserable at my brief attempt to do it myself with Gimp.
2020-06-06 17:49:41 @solderpunk *miserably
2020-06-06 17:49:59 ~tiwesdaeg you can convert png to svg
2020-06-06 17:50:11 ~tiwesdaeg and there may be an svg on wikipedia of that gemini logo
2020-06-06 17:50:20 @solderpunk I think there is, actually.
2020-06-06 17:50:40 makeworld Not reliably though, like it's just a best effort tracing algo isn't it?
2020-06-06 17:50:42 ~tiwesdaeg this is an inkscape job all the way
2020-06-06 17:50:52 ~tiwesdaeg I would hate to try it in gimp
2020-06-06 17:51:09 @solderpunk I did hate trying it :p
2020-06-06 17:51:10 ~tiwesdaeg makeworld: I've done it before, I just always have to find a guide for it
2020-06-06 17:51:28 makeworld Ah ok
2020-06-06 17:51:49 ~tiwesdaeg first thing is, let's see if I can compile kristall on openbsd
2020-06-06 17:53:21 @solderpunk Oh, actually, it should definitely have
2020-06-06 17:53:31 @solderpunk "+JS?" in the top, too.
2020-06-06 17:53:48 makeworld That's pretty long haha
2020-06-06 17:53:50 ~tiwesdaeg so needy!
2020-06-06 17:54:22 @solderpunk Haha
2020-06-06 17:54:26 ~tiwesdaeg I wonder what that font is on the smiling sun logo
2020-06-06 17:54:34 @solderpunk No idea.
2020-06-06 17:54:39 makeworld Looks very generic
2020-06-06 17:54:42 @solderpunk I guess if they don't all fit, JS is more evil than CSS.
2020-06-06 17:54:55 @solderpunk Anyway, I gotta run folks, but nice chatting with you all!
2020-06-06 17:55:00 @solderpunk I shall return to the mailing list tomorrow.
2020-06-06 17:55:05 ~tiwesdaeg they can all fit, you just may end up with a smaller font
2020-06-06 17:55:05 @solderpunk And try to pop in here from time to time, too.
2020-06-06 17:55:07 makeworld See you! Happy to hear it
2020-06-06 17:55:19 ~tiwesdaeg I'll work on the logo in a bit
2020-06-06 17:55:27 @solderpunk Definitely no rush!
2020-06-06 17:55:29 ~tiwesdaeg have a good one!
2020-06-06 17:55:35 @solderpunk Cheers, you too.
2020-06-06 17:55:37 solderpunk has quit (Client exited)
2020-06-06 17:55:56 makeworld "~luke"?
2020-06-06 17:56:03 makeworld o.O
2020-06-06 18:00:00 lukee Hi folks - just joined again - my ears were burning ;)
2020-06-06 18:01:29 ~tiwesdaeg heya
2020-06-06 18:02:09 ~tiwesdaeg xq: some weird issues on openbsd
2020-06-06 18:02:36 xq :(
2020-06-06 18:02:39 xq can you tell me more?
2020-06-06 18:03:53 ~tiwesdaeg qmake is reporting ld.so: rcc: can't load library 'libzstd.so.3.1'
2020-06-06 18:04:06 ~tiwesdaeg I've got libzstd.so.3.2
2020-06-06 18:04:06 lukee to catch up on a couple of earlier comments, yes GemiNaut does site specific themes. It tries to work out the most likely site based on the URL
2020-06-06 18:04:47 lukee At the moment if there is a /~foo or /users/foo in the URL, that is taken as the site base for the URL
2020-06-06 18:04:48 ~tiwesdaeg I just sort of created a symbolic link to it ad qmake was happy
2020-06-06 18:05:16 liberius has quit (Client exited)
2020-06-06 18:05:17 ~tiwesdaeg then I get this when I run gmake: cc1plus: error: unrecognized command line option "-std=gnu++1z"
2020-06-06 18:05:30 xq oh
2020-06-06 18:05:32 xq ouh
2020-06-06 18:05:33 lukee otherwise it is the domain. Mostly this works. To be more precise would require the page itself to inform where "home" is
2020-06-06 18:05:39 xq what's the GCC/CXX version?
2020-06-06 18:06:08 ~tiwesdaeg gcc version 4.2.1 20070719
2020-06-06 18:07:00 xq oh
2020-06-06 18:07:02 xq crap
2020-06-06 18:07:02 xq :D
2020-06-06 18:07:04 ~tiwesdaeg hehe
2020-06-06 18:07:15 xq that's a bit … outdated :D
2020-06-06 18:07:29 ~tiwesdaeg cc -v gives me OpenBSD clang version 8.0.1 (tags/RELEASE_801/final) (based on LLVM 8.0.1)
2020-06-06 18:07:41 xq you can probably use clang
2020-06-06 18:07:42 xq then
2020-06-06 18:07:42 ~tiwesdaeg yeah, opebsd and gnu aren't the best of friends
2020-06-06 18:08:21 xq hm, i'm using some C++17 fans
2020-06-06 18:08:33 xq should be available in clang8 tho
2020-06-06 18:09:42 ~tiwesdaeg well, when I run make instead of gmake, I get ../browsertab.cpp:152:5: error: division by zero in preprocessor expression
2020-06-06 18:10:13 xq can you link me the line?
2020-06-06 18:10:24 xq i think i had the same problem on windows
2020-06-06 18:11:26 ~tiwesdaeg the line in the code?
2020-06-06 18:11:59 ~tiwesdaeg or or the compilation line
2020-06-06 18:12:29 xq i think i can fix it
2020-06-06 18:12:47 xq can you pull and retry?
2020-06-06 18:13:00 ~tiwesdaeg k
2020-06-06 18:14:55 ~tiwesdaeg that fixed the error
2020-06-06 18:15:07 ~tiwesdaeg now we hit something else
2020-06-06 18:15:15 xq okay, good
2020-06-06 18:15:21 xq can you just send me the compiler error?
2020-06-06 18:15:40 ~tiwesdaeg hold on
2020-06-06 18:16:07 ~tiwesdaeg it's something to do with markdown and qt
2020-06-06 18:16:19 ~tiwesdaeg not specifically a code error
2020-06-06 18:16:41 xq hm
2020-06-06 18:16:57 ~tiwesdaeg it's on my end is my guess
2020-06-06 18:17:02 xq kindaish?
2020-06-06 18:17:46 ~tiwesdaeg error: no member named 'MarkdownText' in namespace 'Qt'
2020-06-06 18:18:11 xq damn.
2020-06-06 18:18:19 xq i can fix this as well :D
2020-06-06 18:18:55 ~tiwesdaeg I think it's a clang thing
2020-06-06 18:19:39 xq nah
2020-06-06 18:19:41 xq it's a Qt thing
2020-06-06 18:19:46 xq you can compile Qt with different modules
2020-06-06 18:19:50 xq and you don't have the markdown module
2020-06-06 18:19:54 xq and … i don't use that D
2020-06-06 18:20:12 xq pull; recompile
2020-06-06 18:20:17 xq may another error strike us
2020-06-06 18:20:24 ~tiwesdaeg https://ctxt.io/2/AADAtkpdEg
2020-06-06 18:21:11 xq have you rerun qmake?
2020-06-06 18:23:29 ~tiwesdaeg it build
2020-06-06 18:23:34 ~tiwesdaeg built
2020-06-06 18:24:03 ~tiwesdaeg I'm getting a black on black theme currently
2020-06-06 18:24:11 ~tiwesdaeg I can only see the text if I highlight it
2020-06-06 18:24:14 xq that's a weird theme :D
2020-06-06 18:25:21 ~tiwesdaeg when I pull up your theme configuration window
2020-06-06 18:25:39 ~tiwesdaeg almost ever text box is black/black and the preview
2020-06-06 18:26:14 ~tiwesdaeg also, it's yelling at me if I don't enter gemini:// before a domain
2020-06-06 18:26:36 ~tiwesdaeg Unsupported uri scheme:
2020-06-06 18:26:42 ~tiwesdaeg I'm breaking things left and right
2020-06-06 18:26:51 xq ooooooh
2020-06-06 18:26:55 xq *laughing*
2020-06-06 18:26:58 xq oOOOOH
2020-06-06 18:27:00 xq yeah, true
2020-06-06 18:27:05 xq thaaaat's the default theme now
2020-06-06 18:27:08 xq black on black
2020-06-06 18:27:09 xq :D
2020-06-06 18:27:36 xq just switch to "auto theme" with dark mode or something
2020-06-06 18:28:06 xq and yeah, the url bar is a bit … picky
2020-06-06 18:28:13 xq it's on the todo list now!
2020-06-06 18:30:04 ~tiwesdaeg there we go
2020-06-06 18:30:19 ~tiwesdaeg the text boxes are still all black ;P
2020-06-06 18:30:22 xq current feature on the workbench: navigation history
2020-06-06 18:31:51 ~tiwesdaeg anyway, besides all the stuff we fixed, there is still the weird issue with libzstd
2020-06-06 18:33:35 xq hm?
2020-06-06 18:39:24 @tomasino and i have returned
2020-06-06 18:39:26 makeworld if !strings.Contains(u, "://") && !strings.HasPrefix(u, "//") {
2020-06-06 18:39:26 makeworld parsed, err = url.Parse("gemini://" + u)
2020-06-06 18:39:27 @tomasino what's up, my people
2020-06-06 18:39:32 makeworld Heyo
2020-06-06 18:39:36 @tomasino hiya
2020-06-06 18:40:02 kensanata Converting my chaotic neutral wiki text to semi-lawful gemini format.
2020-06-06 18:40:08 @tomasino haha
2020-06-06 18:40:14 @tomasino fantastic
2020-06-06 18:40:30 kensanata Basically just looking at the last few blog post and checking whether anything seems super off.
2020-06-06 18:40:31 kensanata of
2020-06-06 18:40:33 makeworld kensanata: Are you alex?
2020-06-06 18:40:44 kensanata Yeah
2020-06-06 18:40:48 makeworld Oh haha
2020-06-06 18:40:59 makeworld You're the one who's been flooding Gemini with markdown ;)
2020-06-06 18:41:08 @tomasino haha
2020-06-06 18:41:23 kensanata The problem seems to be that I have such a huge ass site...
2020-06-06 18:41:32 makeworld As of right now, there are more md documents than gmi on Gemini rn, all because of you lolol
2020-06-06 18:41:39 kensanata Haha
2020-06-06 18:41:40 ~tiwesdaeg I might have a markdown file or two in gemini space
2020-06-06 18:41:44 makeworld It's nearly a 2:1 ratio in fact
2020-06-06 18:42:01 kensanata Step 1 for AV-98 was to define a text/markdown handler of mdcat. :)
2020-06-06 18:42:19 makeworld If I can plug my own stuff for a sec, I wrote a markdown to gemini converter if that helps you
2020-06-06 18:42:25 kensanata But yeah, this should all change as the crawlers go through it all again.
2020-06-06 18:42:51 kensanata makeworld: The problem is that I have acreted markup rules for 17 years, more or less.
2020-06-06 18:43:12 makeworld Oh so it's not really markdown?
2020-06-06 18:43:19 kensanata I've been through UseMod, Wiki Creole, bbCode, raw HTML, stuff I liked I couldn't find elsewhere, my own Markdown parser...
2020-06-06 18:43:25 makeworld Like it's a wiki syntax?
2020-06-06 18:43:44 makeworld If you know what's what you could convert to markdown using pandoc and then use my tool maybe
2020-06-06 18:43:47 kensanata Well, I use Oddmuse, which allows you to write your own markup rules... so...
2020-06-06 18:43:52 makeworld ....
2020-06-06 18:43:53 kensanata it's... uh... chaotic!
2020-06-06 18:43:56 makeworld Haha
2020-06-06 18:44:43 kensanata Yeah, there's no out of the box solution, I'm afraid. It's just that I recently started using more basic Markdown formatting so treating it as Markdown is pretty good.
2020-06-06 18:45:01 kensanata But then all the links point to the web side of the site.
2020-06-06 18:45:12 kensanata So now I'm trying to be a better Geminonaut.
2020-06-06 18:45:21 makeworld Well the tool is https://github.com/makeworld-the-better-one/md2gemini if that helps. You'll have to do some sed for linking
2020-06-06 18:45:34 kensanata Thanks.
2020-06-06 18:46:38 kensanata I wonder where the page with all the clients, servers and tools went. I need to bookmark that.
2020-06-06 18:48:37 xq tiwesdaeg: i would like to do another run
2020-06-06 18:48:46 xq can you delete the folder ~/.config/xqTechnologies ?
2020-06-06 18:48:54 ~tiwesdaeg sure
2020-06-06 18:48:59 ~tiwesdaeg then rebuild?
2020-06-06 18:49:02 xq not yet
2020-06-06 18:49:44 xq i'll have to do some minor changes to do
2020-06-06 18:49:49 xq and design some better default theme
2020-06-06 18:51:18 ~tiwesdaeg black on black is pretty metal though
2020-06-06 18:51:25 xq haha
2020-06-06 18:51:28 xq tilde.black approves
2020-06-06 18:51:35 ⚡ tomasino nods
2020-06-06 18:58:04 xq tiwesdaeg: go!
2020-06-06 18:58:28 kensanata 🤘
2020-06-06 18:58:44 ~tiwesdaeg k
2020-06-06 18:58:47 xq new features: sane default theme, page margins are settable, history works
2020-06-06 18:59:05 xq way too many settings settings now on the style tab!
2020-06-06 19:01:31 ~tiwesdaeg look at those arrows go!
2020-06-06 19:01:46 ~tiwesdaeg much less metal now, but very readable
2020-06-06 19:02:18 xq hrhr
2020-06-06 19:02:22 xq "./kristall --metal"
2020-06-06 19:02:42 ~tiwesdaeg I'm not sure if it's my wm, but when the settings window is open, I can't move my mouse outside of it
2020-06-06 19:02:52 ~tiwesdaeg it pops back to the center
2020-06-06 19:03:32 xq hm, weird
2020-06-06 19:04:37 ~tiwesdaeg I'm using cwm
2020-06-06 19:06:28 kensanata I must say I like how my blog looks as Gemini site. I was afraid that those line-links would annoy my, but it's very readable!
2020-06-06 19:06:46 kensanata I wonder whether my writing habits will change as a result.
2020-06-06 19:07:27 kensanata makeworld: Now I feel the urge to add support for Gemini links to my wiki markup parser and then... It'll even more weird! Yikes.
2020-06-06 19:07:47 makeworld Haha
2020-06-06 19:09:07 xq makeworld: wanna do another test of Kristall?
2020-06-06 19:09:34 makeworld I can't right now sorry
2020-06-06 19:09:55 makeworld Or did you meant to @ someone else? I haven't done a first one lol
2020-06-06 19:10:57 ~tiwesdaeg there we go, got a nice dracula theme going
2020-06-06 19:11:50 ~tiwesdaeg xq: theming for the info panes?
2020-06-06 19:12:22 ~tiwesdaeg the dark background looks very contrasty with the white panes on either side
2020-06-06 19:12:45 xq tiwesdaeg: oh, yeah have to look up how to theme Qt :D
2020-06-06 19:12:50 xq would only provide a dark/light theme
2020-06-06 19:13:02 xq and: can you show me your color theme? i'd like to provide some presets
2020-06-06 19:13:21 ~tiwesdaeg it's gone
2020-06-06 19:13:25 ~tiwesdaeg does it save on exit?
2020-06-06 19:13:52 xq yeah
2020-06-06 19:13:57 ~tiwesdaeg I clicked a drop down arrow on the left menu section and the program crashed
2020-06-06 19:14:07 ~tiwesdaeg well, that's what happened
2020-06-06 19:14:23 ~tiwesdaeg it came back with the default theme
2020-06-06 19:15:24 ~tiwesdaeg xq: I can replicate the crash
2020-06-06 19:15:41 xq huh
2020-06-06 19:15:45 xq where exactly?
2020-06-06 19:15:46 ~tiwesdaeg go to the specification.gmi
2020-06-06 19:16:01 ~tiwesdaeg that solderpunk just created
2020-06-06 19:16:02 kensanata Is there something like a central list of Gemini sites, including their updates?
2020-06-06 19:16:29 ~tiwesdaeg click the drop down arrow next to Project Gemini
2020-06-06 19:16:48 ~tiwesdaeg kensanata: gus keeps track of all indexed servers and has a list
2020-06-06 19:16:55 xq thanks!
2020-06-06 19:16:59 xq got a repro
2020-06-06 19:17:26 kensanata tiwesdaeg: Thanks!
2020-06-06 19:17:27 ~tiwesdaeg solderpunk said he would stop updating his list on gemini.circumlunar.space after the first 50 or something
2020-06-06 19:17:30 ~tiwesdaeg np
2020-06-06 19:17:52 ~tiwesdaeg the the GUS list seems to be in random order and changes order regularly
2020-06-06 19:19:02 kensanata Well, 76 is a start. :)
2020-06-06 19:21:11 xq tiwesdaeg: gonna fix that bug now
2020-06-06 19:21:18 xq it's going to be awesome!
2020-06-06 19:21:20 kensanata Holy cow the first one I tried is freedombone and the second one is astrobotany. This is great!
2020-06-06 19:22:14 kensanata I wonder whether elpher can do client certificates. Probably doable with some weird extraplanar Emacs wizardry.
2020-06-06 19:26:34 xq oh, beginner mistake
2020-06-06 19:29:50 ironzorg tiwesdaeg: what if servers (voluntarily) announced themselves to a masterserver, similarly to how video game servers do it, to help with discoverability of the network?
2020-06-06 19:31:10 ironzorg it's not scalable, but it could help, at the beginning, instead of having somebody update a list manually
2020-06-06 19:31:53 ~tiwesdaeg sounds kind of centralized
2020-06-06 19:32:30 ironzorg there's only one list of 50 known servers as well ;)
2020-06-06 19:32:54 ironzorg and it can be hard capped as well, and dropped once there are several hundred of servers
2020-06-06 19:33:03 ironzorg just a random thought
2020-06-06 19:34:44 ~tiwesdaeg There's no official list of webservers either
2020-06-06 19:34:54 xq tiwesdaeg: but did i understand correct? Kristall supports OpenBSD as well?
2020-06-06 19:35:18 ~tiwesdaeg you kind find stuff via search indexers and by discovering them through clicking links
2020-06-06 19:35:49 ~tiwesdaeg xq: yes, all this kristall drama for the past hour and a half has been on openbsd
2020-06-06 19:36:27 ~tiwesdaeg the only thing I ran in to that I don't think is a code issue is the one library problem
2020-06-06 19:37:06 ~tiwesdaeg quoting myself: qmake is reporting ld.so: rcc: can't load library 'libzstd.so.3.1'
2020-06-06 19:37:06 xq okay, do you know how to solve that except for "have yourself a symlink?"
2020-06-06 19:38:14 ~tiwesdaeg I ran 'ln -s /usr/local/lib/libzstd.so.3.2 /usr/local/lib/libzstd.so.3.1'
2020-06-06 19:38:22 ~tiwesdaeg and that made it happy
2020-06-06 19:38:40 ~tiwesdaeg no idea why it was trying to link to the slightly older version
2020-06-06 19:40:51 ~tiwesdaeg I would say if you were adding instructions, ensure openbsd users run make and not gmake
2020-06-06 19:41:17 ~tiwesdaeg gmake on netbsd must be using a newer gcc/g++
2020-06-06 19:44:47 makeworld ironzorg: That already happens with GUS
2020-06-06 19:44:57 makeworld You can add your URL to gus.guru and it displays a list of servers
2020-06-06 19:45:06 makeworld I've added people's servers there before
2020-06-06 19:50:45 makeworld Man, tabs are more work than I thought
2020-06-06 19:50:58 makeworld And that's before I've even ran the code
2020-06-06 20:01:29 kensanata If Emacs taught me anything it's that tabs don't scale. I also don't listen to browser users that suffer from tabitis, which is the mental health issue of being unable to close tabs.
2020-06-06 20:01:41 kensanata I always close my Emacs buffers, of course.
2020-06-06 20:04:29 @tomasino Buffers ftw
2020-06-06 20:05:05 makeworld Lol
2020-06-06 20:05:06 @tomasino But, you know... in vim
2020-06-06 20:05:29 makeworld I have 11 tabs open right now, which is about as high as it gets for me
2020-06-06 20:05:41 makeworld I don't expect to use tabs much for Gemini, but I thought it would be a cool feature
2020-06-06 20:07:05 @tomasino I'm kinda curious about creating a Gemini stream
2020-06-06 20:08:08 @tomasino Since parsing can happen line by line it should be possible, but I'm not coming up with a good but of perpetual content
2020-06-06 20:09:03 @tomasino How would your clients deal with that?
2020-06-06 20:09:05 dkibi got some cgi to work: gemini://otrn.org/test/labyrinth.py
2020-06-06 20:26:56 lukee I'm playing with cgi too
2020-06-06 20:27:18 lukee here is my first script that requires user input - an arbitrary calculator
2020-06-06 20:27:20 lukee gemini://gemini.marmaladefoo.com/cgi-bin/calc.cgi?0
2020-06-06 20:27:52 lukee can anyone test that works with their client?
2020-06-06 20:28:06 companion_cube cgi, as in common gateway interface?
2020-06-06 20:28:31 lukee yes old school cgi - not computer graphics
2020-06-06 20:29:27 companion_cube so that's a new feature of gemini?
2020-06-06 20:29:39 companion_cube (or of some server thereof?)
2020-06-06 20:29:51 lukee not really its just implemented by some of the servers
2020-06-06 20:31:22 companion_cube semi relatedly, yesterday I read something about systemd being able to replace inetd :D
2020-06-06 20:31:39 companion_cube you can write a program that does stdin/stdout, and use systemd to wire it on the network
2020-06-06 20:32:31 lukee I have no idea how to do that, my linux skills are pretty rudimentary
2020-06-06 20:34:04 lukee @dkibi: will you implement some navigation commands through those mazes?
2020-06-06 20:34:54 companion_cube https://www.linux.com/training-tutorials/end-road-systemds-socket-units/ this explains it nicely, really
2020-06-06 20:34:56 companion_cube systemd is neat
2020-06-06 20:37:08 lukee that would make a nice gemnini blog post if you can get that working
2020-06-06 20:37:17 kensanata tomasino: Parsing on the go is rare these days. Most people expect to load complete documents before beginning to parse. But it should be no problem, really.
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2020-06-06 21:33:59 makeworld Yeah, at the moment my client just loads the whole file into memory, which isn't great
2020-06-06 21:34:19 makeworld In 99% of cases it'll be fine, but I should handle that edge case of a 1 GB gemini file
2020-06-06 21:41:37 companion_cube is the author of bombadillo here?
2020-06-06 21:41:58 companion_cube it's a bit rough to only have vim bindings 😅
2020-06-06 21:43:59 kensanata I guess I have come full circle, now. My Gemini client ate my post.
2020-06-06 21:44:44 xq hmm
2020-06-06 21:44:54 xq thinking about adding https and http support to Kristall as well
2020-06-06 21:46:32 @tomasino ate your post?
2020-06-06 21:46:38 @tomasino mangled the file or something?
2020-06-06 21:55:42 kensanata tomasino: I'm trying to use my Gemini client as the editor for new blog posts.
2020-06-06 21:56:15 kensanata tomasino: And of course, everything is full of bugs. My server, the patch for the client, and so on.
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2020-06-06 21:59:13 makeworld companion_cube: Working on that ;)
2020-06-06 21:59:26 companion_cube arrows!! :p
2020-06-06 21:59:48 kensanata I was hoping to hear you say: Emacs bindings!!
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2020-06-06 22:00:13 kensanata Then again, why wouldn't you be using Emacs in the first place? 🤔
2020-06-06 22:00:33 companion_cube I do use vim, but without j/k :p
2020-06-06 22:00:50 kensanata j/k is basically the only vim binding I know!
2020-06-06 22:01:05 kensanata I get to use it a lot in aerc, the new mail client I'm trying to get used to.
2020-06-06 22:01:46 kensanata I even added it to the Javascript for https://campaignwiki.org/rpg so I can quickly skip back and forth from post to post. j/k is the best binding!
2020-06-06 22:01:53 kensanata And I don't even use vim.
2020-06-06 22:08:06 makeworld companion_cube: Arrows, yes :)
2020-06-06 22:22:39 lick vim is cool
2020-06-06 22:26:47 xq hmm
2020-06-06 22:26:54 xq some of you are also using gopher, right?
2020-06-06 22:26:59 @tomasino oh yes
2020-06-06 22:27:01 @tomasino gopher is life
2020-06-06 22:27:12 xq do i see it right that gopher has basically two modes of operation
2020-06-06 22:27:18 xq one is "serve a full file"
2020-06-06 22:27:25 xq and the other is "serve a directory listing"
2020-06-06 22:27:25 xq ?
2020-06-06 22:27:39 @tomasino sounds like you're thinking about two of the most common item types
2020-06-06 22:27:42 @tomasino type 0 is plain text
2020-06-06 22:27:55 @tomasino type 1 is a "gophermap" which describes links
2020-06-06 22:28:05 @tomasino there are others, including sound, telnet, binary, search, etc
2020-06-06 22:28:11 xq i'm just skipping through wikipedia and get to know the protocol
2020-06-06 22:28:19 @tomasino https://gopher.zone
2020-06-06 22:28:28 xq my experiment atm as `echo / | nc gopher.quux.org 70`
2020-06-06 22:28:28 xq :D
2020-06-06 22:28:31 @tomasino you can use this collection of getting started stuff too
2020-06-06 22:28:48 kensanata has quit (The TLS connection was non-properly terminated.)
2020-06-06 22:28:49 @tomasino i run gopher://gopher.black
2020-06-06 22:28:53 xq thanks for the link :)
2020-06-06 22:29:07 @tomasino we have a #gopher channel on here if you want any help with anything
2020-06-06 22:29:12 xq hehe, nice
2020-06-06 22:30:37 xq my plan right now is to also add gopher support to Kristall because … why not?! :D
2020-06-06 22:30:47 xq maybe later even FTP browsing or something
2020-06-06 22:30:57 @tomasino absolutely
2020-06-06 22:31:04 @tomasino small-internet protocol support FTW
2020-06-06 22:31:10 @tomasino toss finger in there too while you're at it
2020-06-06 22:31:18 @tomasino it's just as simple
2020-06-06 22:31:22 xq what's finger exactly?
2020-06-06 22:31:28 xq wikipedia isn't that … expressive
2020-06-06 22:31:56 @tomasino do you have tilde account on any of the tildes?
2020-06-06 22:31:59 @tomasino i can demonstrate
2020-06-06 22:32:02 xq nope, not yet
2020-06-06 22:32:10 @tomasino or if you have finger installed, $ finger tomasino@cosmic.voyage
2020-06-06 22:32:29 @tomasino originally it was used to poke at users on systems to see what they were up to and where their office was on campus
2020-06-06 22:32:36 @tomasino later it got abused and abandonded
2020-06-06 22:32:48 @tomasino now it's being resurrected and turned into little silly art things
2020-06-06 22:33:08 @tomasino efingerd is a popular finger daemon that just passes the requests to a script for you. You can respond with whatever you want
2020-06-06 22:33:25 @tomasino finger ping@cosmic.voyage and it'll respond to you with a reverse ping from that server toward your IP
2020-06-06 22:33:38 @tomasino castor has support built in, if you have that installed
2020-06-06 22:33:59 @tomasino finger://tomasino@cosmic.voyage
2020-06-06 22:35:02 xq lol
2020-06-06 22:35:03 xq killed castor :D
2020-06-06 22:36:00 @tomasino haha, really?
2020-06-06 22:36:02 xq yeah
2020-06-06 22:36:05 xq with ping@ … :D
2020-06-06 22:36:15 xq finger is a "protocol", huh? :D
2020-06-06 22:36:20 @tomasino yep!
2020-06-06 22:36:27 @tomasino port 79, if memory serves
2020-06-06 22:36:30 xq just send the name followed by CR to the server and get a response :D
2020-06-06 22:36:38 @tomasino it's so damn simple it's criminal
2020-06-06 22:36:45 xq yep :D
2020-06-06 22:36:45 @julienxx Port 79 is the best
2020-06-06 22:36:48 @tomasino and a blank name is great too
2020-06-06 22:36:53 @tomasino finger @cosmic.voyage
2020-06-06 22:37:05 xq julienxx: bug report. finger://ping@cosmic.voyage kills castor :D
2020-06-06 22:37:26 @julienxx :)
2020-06-06 22:37:33 @tomasino it returns for me without killing castor... just takes a few seconds
2020-06-06 22:37:55 xq but hey, thanks for the input
2020-06-06 22:38:01 xq let's do gopher and finger as well in Kristall!
2020-06-06 22:38:30 @tomasino most of the tildes have finger support running, so you should have lots of stuff to test
2020-06-06 22:39:00 xq neat
2020-06-06 22:39:28 xq can you tell me how i know what type of resource gopher is outputting?
2020-06-06 22:39:36 xq or do i just have to assume the first link is a directory? :D
2020-06-06 22:40:37 @tomasino the root is type 1 by default
2020-06-06 22:40:52 xq okay
2020-06-06 22:40:56 @tomasino but as a client, you just use the type in the request
2020-06-06 22:41:00 @tomasino the server won't tell you
2020-06-06 22:41:24 @tomasino gopher://gopher.black/1/about vs gopher://gopher.black/0/about
2020-06-06 22:43:37 @tomasino open both of those links in a gopher client and compare, then curl them both
2020-06-06 22:43:53 @tomasino you'll see curl responds the same. the client's on the hook to use the type to know what to do
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2020-06-06 22:53:24 ~tiwesdaeg xq: I'm back at home, so I am going to try all your changes on netbsd now
2020-06-06 22:54:00 xq oh yeah :D
2020-06-06 22:54:08 xq if you give me 20 minutes, you get the full package
2020-06-06 22:54:21 xq which is probably worthy a first release
2020-06-06 22:59:59 ~tiwesdaeg you put it all in src I noticed
2020-06-06 23:00:02 ~tiwesdaeg I like the icon
2020-06-06 23:00:30 xq thanks! :)
2020-06-06 23:00:41 xq i've never seen the icon except for my editor and about dialog :D
2020-06-06 23:00:53 ~tiwesdaeg I'm totally a big fan of using gem symbols for gemini
2020-06-06 23:00:58 ⚡ tiwesdaeg points at the topic
2020-06-06 23:01:46 ~tiwesdaeg I'm using tint2 bar, it shows up there
2020-06-06 23:02:58 ~tiwesdaeg let me know when you are done and I'll git pull again
2020-06-06 23:06:14 xq done!
2020-06-06 23:07:02 xq new features:
2020-06-06 23:07:05 xq more works, less bugs
2020-06-06 23:07:16 xq you have about:favourites as a start page, and can configure the start page
2020-06-06 23:07:22 xq you can enable http/https support
2020-06-06 23:07:32 xq and the menu structure is a bit different
2020-06-06 23:09:22 xq oh: and forward/backward navigation now works
2020-06-06 23:12:59 styan xq: Hooray for styling!
2020-06-06 23:13:06 xq \o/
2020-06-06 23:13:11 xq it now is also saved when you click okay
2020-06-06 23:13:23 xq also it saves your window layout and configuration
2020-06-06 23:13:40 xq so if you want to have the outline open, it will remember this and reopen it on the next start
2020-06-06 23:13:56 xq you can enable/disable support for each protocol individually :)
2020-06-06 23:14:15 styan Also, because Gemini is awesome, you do not have to worry about fingerprinting!
2020-06-06 23:14:30 xq hehe
2020-06-06 23:14:40 xq btw, i also serve http and markdown :D
2020-06-06 23:14:49 xq but without any secondary requests
2020-06-06 23:14:57 xq so: no styles, only plain html
2020-06-06 23:15:02 xq *html, not http *facepalm*
2020-06-06 23:15:09 styan Serve, or fetch?
2020-06-06 23:15:34 xq both
2020-06-06 23:15:46 xq visit gemini://random-projects.net/
2020-06-06 23:15:50 xq scroll down
2020-06-06 23:16:01 xq and you can switch between both https *and* html serving :D
2020-06-06 23:17:31 styan TLS Error: handshake failed on tilde.black
2020-06-06 23:17:59 xq oh, yeah. i don't ignore those yet :D
2020-06-06 23:18:19 xq TLS handling is work-in-progress
2020-06-06 23:18:35 ~tiwesdaeg xq: looks fantastic
2020-06-06 23:18:43 xq thanks! ♥
2020-06-06 23:18:49 ~tiwesdaeg I'll see if I can break it
2020-06-06 23:18:55 xq please, do!
2020-06-06 23:19:02 xq more breaking means less breaking
2020-06-06 23:19:24 styan The build instructions in your README no longer work
2020-06-06 23:19:42 xq added the ../src/kristall.pro
2020-06-06 23:19:43 xq :D
2020-06-06 23:19:56 xq i had it in mind, didn't changed it. next commit will fix it
2020-06-06 23:20:46 ~tiwesdaeg so you've got BSD and linux support
2020-06-06 23:20:49 styan Maybe add a stub of a makefile that will run those commands?
2020-06-06 23:20:51 ~tiwesdaeg Haiku next?
2020-06-06 23:20:53 ~tiwesdaeg haha
2020-06-06 23:21:11 xq :D
2020-06-06 23:21:21 xq tiwesdaeg: the fastest browser on earth? :D
2020-06-06 23:21:40 xq i just noticed that my website is blazingly fast compared to chrome, links or even dillo :D
2020-06-06 23:21:49 xq styan: good idea, i'll take a look
2020-06-06 23:22:12 ~tiwesdaeg I made that logo for solderpunk
2020-06-06 23:23:00 xq what logo exactly?
2020-06-06 23:24:07 makeworld tiwesdaeg: Ooh let's see
2020-06-06 23:24:41 ~tiwesdaeg let me upload it
2020-06-06 23:30:12 styan xq: I checked more thoroughly, your site does not work with LibreSSL's libtls.
2020-06-06 23:30:31 xq huh, weird
2020-06-06 23:30:36 ~tiwesdaeg https://www.titmouse.org/Gemini-No-Thanks-Bullet.svg.png
2020-06-06 23:30:41 xq do you have debug output?
2020-06-06 23:30:50 xq haha nice
2020-06-06 23:31:12 styan TLS Error: handshake failed: error:14004410:SSL routines:CONNECT_CR_SRVR_HELLO:sslv3 alert handshake failure
2020-06-06 23:31:43 ~tiwesdaeg solderpunk wanted a logo made out of two different logos
2020-06-06 23:31:52 xq i love it
2020-06-06 23:32:22 makeworld Wow nice! The text rolls around too much though, because of how long the question is
2020-06-06 23:32:28 makeworld Maybe a smaller font would help?
2020-06-06 23:32:28 ~tiwesdaeg how did you make kristall's logo?
2020-06-06 23:32:44 ~tiwesdaeg it's that last JS
2020-06-06 23:32:51 ~tiwesdaeg he requested I add it at the end
2020-06-06 23:33:02 xq tiwesdaeg: not my work actually, just "diamond" from materialdesignicons with minor tweaks :D
2020-06-06 23:33:05 xq via inkscape
2020-06-06 23:33:21 ~tiwesdaeg yeah, inkscape is great
2020-06-06 23:33:36 ~tiwesdaeg I copied that gemini portion by hand
2020-06-06 23:34:04 ~tiwesdaeg it looked like crap converting the original png to vector
2020-06-06 23:34:41 ~tiwesdaeg makeworld: I was trying to keep tot he original No Thanks logo when it came to the font
2020-06-06 23:34:46 ~tiwesdaeg https://www.titmouse.org/Gemini-No-Thanks-Space.svg.png
2020-06-06 23:34:54 ~tiwesdaeg here is is slightly tighter
2020-06-06 23:35:00 ~tiwesdaeg with no bullets
2020-06-06 23:35:15 makeworld Yeah, it's just very round I guess. It's still nice just hard to read
2020-06-06 23:35:24 ~tiwesdaeg when the font is smaller, there is so much open space since the gemini logo is fairly narrow
2020-06-06 23:36:11 ~tiwesdaeg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smiling_Sun#/media/File:Smiling_Sun_English_Language.svg
2020-06-06 23:37:00 ~tiwesdaeg I could decrease the spacing between characters even more on the top letters
2020-06-06 23:38:13 xq can't you just make the font a tad thinner?
2020-06-06 23:38:20 xq i liked the first one with the dots more
2020-06-06 23:38:40 ~tiwesdaeg that's the not bold version
2020-06-06 23:39:05 ~tiwesdaeg you can set character spacing in inkscape
2020-06-06 23:39:08 xq note that you can convert font to path in inkscape
2020-06-06 23:39:13 xq and then fiddle around however you want!
2020-06-06 23:39:25 xq (it also makes the file platform independant)
2020-06-06 23:39:48 ~tiwesdaeg that's what I did ;P
2020-06-06 23:40:09 ~tiwesdaeg the only way I know to make fonts go round and round
2020-06-06 23:43:18 xq so, i think i'll call it a night
2020-06-06 23:43:41 xq let's just write a small announcement mail that Kristall is now at least in a usable state and will replace castor as my primary gemini browser :)
2020-06-06 23:45:17 makeworld Where's the source?
2020-06-06 23:45:22 makeworld I'm excited to try it
2020-06-06 23:45:34 makeworld xq
2020-06-06 23:46:01 xq gemini://random-projects.net/blog/2020-06-07-kristall.gemini
2020-06-06 23:49:04 ~tiwesdaeg xq: I'll get you a screenshot of the dracula theme when I get a chance
2020-06-06 23:49:12 ~tiwesdaeg I have to set it up on this computer
2020-06-06 23:49:18 xq yes, please!
2020-06-06 23:49:46 xq i just added "save/load/share theme presets" to the todo list
2020-06-06 23:52:38 ~tiwesdaeg nice
2020-06-06 23:54:53 styan xq: https://ttm.sh/Qqv.png :-)
2020-06-06 23:55:05 xq styan: black. :D
2020-06-06 23:58:44 styan xq: When using torsocks(1) on kristall QNetworkInterface complains loudly about not being permitted to create an IPv6 socket..
2020-06-06 23:59:23 xq hm
2020-06-06 23:59:23 ~tiwesdaeg xq: https://www.titmouse.org/2020-06-06-185547_1920x1080_scrot.png
2020-06-07 00:00:01 xq i put that in "bug reports"
2020-06-07 00:00:09 xq i have no ipv6 here to test *anything* :(
2020-06-07 00:00:21 xq tiwesdaeg: fabulous!
2020-06-07 00:00:40 xq btw, the outline can now be used to navigate!
2020-06-07 00:01:02 styan xq: It still works, it just complains
2020-06-07 00:01:18 xq hmm :D
2020-06-07 00:04:03 xq i really like my idea of having cross-scheme links in another color
2020-06-07 00:04:27 xq but damn, i have to go to bed :D
2020-06-07 00:04:35 xq happy for more comments tomorrow/later
2020-06-07 00:06:10 styan xq: In the Makefile, use of `{body}lt;' in non-suffix rules is not-portable. Also, good night!
2020-06-07 00:08:24 lukee nice screenshots xq!
2020-06-07 00:08:59 ~tiwesdaeg you can even see your icon
2020-06-07 00:10:27 makeworld Wow that looks great
2020-06-07 00:13:16 makeworld Wow I'm looking at the README and this is awesome
2020-06-07 00:19:45 makeworld Great work
2020-06-07 00:20:08 makeworld tiwesdaeg: Can you share your config for that?
2020-06-07 00:23:23 makeworld xq: No unicode handling?
2020-06-07 00:23:51 makeworld Emojis aren't displaying for me, I think maybe the font doesn't handle it and it doesn't know to switch to an emoji font
2020-06-07 00:32:33 pokes has quit (Ping timeout: 120 seconds)
2020-06-07 00:40:12 makeworld Also tiwesdaeg what is up with your Date in that screenshot lol
2020-06-07 00:40:17 makeworld Is that discordianism?
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2020-06-07 01:02:17 ~tiwesdaeg it is indeed the discordian date
2020-06-07 01:02:36 ~tiwesdaeg I'm using the classic ddate progam to output that
2020-06-07 01:02:47 ~tiwesdaeg it used to be default in most linux distributions
2020-06-07 01:04:07 ~tiwesdaeg I'm not on that computer right now, but I'll grab the config files when I get a chance
2020-06-07 01:04:37 ~tiwesdaeg I'm on a *gasp* chromebook right now
2020-06-07 01:04:57 ~tiwesdaeg which I am using as a glorified ssh platform
2020-06-07 01:08:21 makeworld Oh okay, interesting
2020-06-07 01:09:18 ~tiwesdaeg https://github.com/bo0ts/ddate
2020-06-07 01:09:44 ~tiwesdaeg such an orderly calendar system for such a disorderly religion
2020-06-07 01:22:14 lukee has quit (Client exited)
2020-06-07 01:35:24 makeworld I really don't get the Discordianism stuff lol
2020-06-07 01:35:35 makeworld I've been meaning to look into it properly for a while now
2020-06-07 01:48:08 cmccabe did someone say fnord?
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2020-06-07 03:03:32 companion_cube fnord
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2020-06-07 07:50:20 xq hey hey
2020-06-07 07:50:27 xq <makeworld> xq: No unicode handling?
2020-06-07 07:50:37 @julienxx good morning
2020-06-07 07:50:49 xq Qt should actually handly it… But it seems like one have to chose a font that supports unicode…
2020-06-07 07:50:55 xq i'll have to investigate that further
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2020-06-07 09:10:45 epoch for some reason castor is freezing up on a specific url.
2020-06-07 09:11:01 epoch looking into how to reproduce it better than just "here's the URL. good luck"
2020-06-07 09:11:18 epoch strace is showing it sitting on a wait4
2020-06-07 09:11:44 @julienxx freezing usually means it's waiting for an answer or the answer is big maybe?
2020-06-07 09:12:06 epoch the answer should be fairly small. it might be that my server is borking
2020-06-07 09:13:06 epoch it works with openssl s_client
2020-06-07 09:15:05 epoch it is probably the weird mime-type I'm sending
2020-06-07 09:15:38 @julienxx ah yes if you mime type is not text/something Castor will try to download content
2020-06-07 09:15:58 epoch I'm sending application/something
2020-06-07 09:16:08 epoch but it just sits without redrawing
2020-06-07 09:16:22 epoch and ctrl+c doesn't stop it, so I ctrl+z and kill %1
2020-06-07 09:16:42 @julienxx so it will try to download whatever the server returns and use xdg-open to open it. Perhaps the response has no crlf?
2020-06-07 09:16:56 epoch maybe.
2020-06-07 09:17:01 @julienxx and it waits indefinitely
2020-06-07 09:17:17 epoch it might be xdg-open is hanging
2020-06-07 09:17:40 @julienxx might be too, you should see the response in /tmp
2020-06-07 09:18:21 epoch named /tmp/.tmp[something]?
2020-06-07 09:18:39 epoch yep
2020-06-07 09:18:48 epoch the whole file is written there
2020-06-07 09:19:25 @julienxx so maybe that's smething I don't handle properly, the case where xdg-open does nothing
2020-06-07 09:20:48 epoch gemini://gemini.thebackupbox.net/appmime
2020-06-07 09:21:39 @julienxx ah opens Emacs here :)
2020-06-07 09:22:15 epoch freezes here. guess I have xdg-open problems.
2020-06-07 09:22:35 @julienxx you might need some kind of catch all handler
2020-06-07 09:22:53 epoch I'll make the appmime thing able to let you select which mime-type it responds with
2020-06-07 09:22:59 epoch so you can test any mime-type you want easily. :)
2020-06-07 09:23:07 @julienxx that's cool!
2020-06-07 09:24:19 epoch alright, reload to test?
2020-06-07 09:24:36 epoch I made it do a 10 if there isn't a mime-type in the query string
2020-06-07 09:25:02 epoch should end up at something like: gemini://gemini.thebackupbox.net/appmime?text/plain I think
2020-06-07 09:25:25 @julienxx got a popup
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2020-06-07 09:28:42 epoch are path-relative links supposed to work?
2020-06-07 09:29:02 epoch like => ?a_query_string
2020-06-07 09:29:33 @julienxx supposedly yes :)
2020-06-07 09:29:47 @julienxx if you have the domain in your history
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2020-06-07 09:30:42 epoch well, like, on the page: site.gemini/some_page if it contains a link to ?derp it should probably be expanded to site.gemini/some_page?derp
2020-06-07 09:30:53 inst\andinus has quit (The TLS connection was non-properly terminated.)
2020-06-07 09:31:14 @julienxx perhaps query params don't count as a relative url
2020-06-07 09:31:57 epoch right now in castor it considers it treats it like a link that'd usually start with /
2020-06-07 09:32:02 epoch derp
2020-06-07 09:32:07 epoch can't type a sentence
2020-06-07 09:32:26 epoch gemini://gemini.thebackupbox.net/appmime?text/gemini like the two links on this page
2020-06-07 09:33:42 @julienxx if you hover the links you should see what its parsed like
2020-06-07 09:33:44 anelki has quit (Ping timeout: 120 seconds)
2020-06-07 09:33:46 @julienxx first link is working
2020-06-07 09:34:22 @julienxx both lead me to gemini://gemini.thebackupbox.net/?text/gemini
2020-06-07 09:34:23 epoch they're going to /? here.
2020-06-07 09:34:34 epoch yeah, that's not where I expected them to go
2020-06-07 09:35:19 epoch I was expecting gemini://gemini.thebackupbox.net/appmime?text/gemini
2020-06-07 09:38:15 @julienxx might be because I don't treat ?foo as a relative link, not sure. Does it work with another client?
2020-06-07 09:38:37 epoch after I get my client working it will.
2020-06-07 09:38:40 epoch :P
2020-06-07 09:39:15 epoch #fragment links are another type of relative link
2020-06-07 09:40:39 epoch my client is two shell scripts atm and they don't wory very well
2020-06-07 09:47:17 epoch those type of links aren't mentioned in the spec it seems
2020-06-07 09:47:46 epoch I'm assuming that's how they should be handled based on how those types of links work in web-browsers
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2020-06-07 09:56:06 epoch hrm... a // link inside a gemini document being viewed over http...
2020-06-07 09:56:18 @julienxx epoch: is your server down?
2020-06-07 09:56:27 epoch ? maybe?
2020-06-07 09:56:31 epoch it is lagging pretty hard
2020-06-07 09:56:50 @julienxx yeah looks like a timeout
2020-06-07 09:59:51 epoch should be good now
2020-06-07 10:00:01 epoch there were a couple processes being hogs
2020-06-07 10:01:02 @julienxx looks like your relative links work in AV-98
2020-06-07 10:01:59 @julienxx at least I'm not redirected to another page
2020-06-07 10:02:06 epoch that's solderpunk's implementation?
2020-06-07 10:02:19 @julienxx yes https://tildegit.org/solderpunk/AV-98
2020-06-07 10:03:11 epoch I'll put the mime-type in the content too
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2020-06-07 10:12:47 kensanata 🚀
2020-06-07 10:23:41 @julienxx epoch: I think the issue might be that your relative links are not relative to the directory but to appmime (which is a page I guess). If I change my code to handle them, Castor does not pass Conman's torture tests anymore.
2020-06-07 10:23:52 ⚡ julienxx waves at kensanata
2020-06-07 10:24:31 epoch hrm... maybe conman's torture tests need to be fixed then
2020-06-07 10:26:12 anelki has quit (Ping timeout: 120 seconds)
2020-06-07 10:26:32 @julienxx relative to a file seems weird to me, would it work in html?
2020-06-07 10:28:10 @julienxx apparently yes
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2020-06-07 10:43:21 anelki has quit (Ping timeout: 120 seconds)
2020-06-07 10:45:16 kensanata What was the question again regarding relative links?
2020-06-07 10:45:44 kensanata To be sure, in my server code I translated all the relative URLs to absolute URLs just to be safe...
2020-06-07 10:46:33 epoch I use ?links on my website
2020-06-07 10:47:01 epoch from pageview.cgi it has a list of pages on the left with links like: ?page=news ?page=derp ?page=etc...
2020-06-07 10:48:43 epoch here's what I have my client doing atm. https://thebackupbox.net/~epoch/incoming/2020-06-07-054822_1920x1080_scrot.png
2020-06-07 10:48:58 epoch extra verbose to see the input link and what it gets converted to
2020-06-07 10:49:53 epoch should I have linked to that over gemini? :P
2020-06-07 10:50:01 ⚡ epoch adds home-dir support to server-script
2020-06-07 10:50:35 @tomasino ?link and #link are weird ones
2020-06-07 10:52:50 epoch I use them though. :)
2020-06-07 10:52:55 epoch I have a good example for #links
2020-06-07 10:53:04 epoch it's in html though
2020-06-07 10:53:41 epoch https://thebackupbox.net/docs/Industrial_Society_and_Its_Future-Ted_Kaczynski.html
2020-06-07 10:53:47 @tomasino document fragment links in html make more sense, what with ids and all
2020-06-07 10:54:08 epoch fragment IDs in text/plain are a thing
2020-06-07 10:54:14 epoch just don't know of any client that support them yet.
2020-06-07 10:54:19 kensanata I'm reading https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3986#section-4.2
2020-06-07 10:54:42 kensanata an empty path followed by a query is legal.
2020-06-07 10:54:44 epoch https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5147
2020-06-07 10:56:27 @tomasino ahh, yes, this is great
2020-06-07 10:56:36 @tomasino some folks on here were discussing this the other day and reinventing the wheel
2020-06-07 10:57:17 kensanata Interesting
2020-06-07 10:59:02 kensanata I like the example section!
2020-06-07 11:00:23 epoch if that RFC was paper it'd be worn
2020-06-07 11:15:33 @tomasino you mean like this? https://ttm.sh/Ex-.png
2020-06-07 11:17:14 ▬▬▶ anelki has joined #gemini
2020-06-07 11:18:12 @tomasino i've been meaning to make a follow-up t-shirt with the ascii table from RFC20
2020-06-07 11:18:25 @tomasino too many fun projects
2020-06-07 11:18:57 epoch ha.
2020-06-07 12:05:14 epoch merp. what's the link for the client torture test?
2020-06-07 12:13:43 kensanata gemini://gemini.conman.org/test/torture/
2020-06-07 12:14:22 kensanata I think people can now leave comments on my blog via Gemini (well, one liners). gemini://alexschroeder.ch/Gemini_Test
2020-06-07 12:15:18 epoch gracias
2020-06-07 13:09:40 epoch https://github.com/kkabrams/geminiclient here's the crap I've been working on.
2020-06-07 13:11:15 epoch I haven't tried to setup the required stuff to get it working from scratch yet.
2020-06-07 13:11:20 epoch it is probably a pain.
2020-06-07 13:11:44 epoch like, 5 or so repos and combining config files and maybe making dirs.
2020-06-07 13:11:49 epoch maybe.
2020-06-07 13:13:52 kensanata has quit (Ping timeout: 120 seconds)
2020-06-07 13:20:58 ▬▬▶ kensanata has joined #gemini
2020-06-07 13:53:36 kensanata I think my Gemini server is simply going to reflow any paragraphs (with empty lines separating paragraphs) if and only if they start with a word character.
2020-06-07 13:54:00 kensanata $block = fill('', '', $block) if $block =~ /^\w/; # not a list, quote, etc
2020-06-07 13:54:04 kensanata In Perl...
2020-06-07 13:54:32 kensanata So now all I have to worry about is a special rule for list items...
2020-06-07 13:59:11 ⚡ tiwesdaeg yawns
2020-06-07 13:59:50 ~tiwesdaeg kensanata: which server is yours?
2020-06-07 14:00:01 kensanata alexschroeder.ch
2020-06-07 14:00:53 ~tiwesdaeg your own personal server, not one posted on solderpunk's software list?
2020-06-07 14:02:04 kensanata Yeah.
2020-06-07 14:02:24 kensanata It's a plugin for my wiki, basically, which can run without the wiki running.
2020-06-07 14:02:57 kensanata Now that I'm starting to write a blog post about line wrapping I'm starting to see more and more issues with my heuristic. Gah!
2020-06-07 14:03:35 ~tiwesdaeg so you are having the server do the line wrapping instead of relying on the client?
2020-06-07 14:03:49 pokes has quit (Ping timeout: 120 seconds)
2020-06-07 14:04:40 kensanata My thinking was: why not both?
2020-06-07 14:05:32 @tomasino i guess if you're not authoring things using the mentality that long paragraphs should be written all on one line then you'd need the server to do that before handing it off to the client to render properly
2020-06-07 14:05:32 kensanata In a way, I think of Gemini like I think of Markdown: I should be able to comfortable read those text files in my editor.
2020-06-07 14:06:01 kensanata tomasino: Yeah, that's what I'm realizing right now.
2020-06-07 14:06:18 ~tiwesdaeg I've never been able to write one long line per paragraph
2020-06-07 14:06:32 @tomasino i had to configure vim for .gmi to do soft-wrapping
2020-06-07 14:06:35 @tomasino i almost never use that
2020-06-07 14:06:45 kensanata The weird thing is that text paragraphs can consist of multiple lines, but list items cannot, right?
2020-06-07 14:06:58 @tomasino neither can
2020-06-07 14:07:04 @tomasino if you break a line, it's a new paragraph
2020-06-07 14:07:07 @tomasino even without whitespace
2020-06-07 14:07:39 ~tiwesdaeg is anyone enforcing that on their clients?
2020-06-07 14:07:54 @tomasino not a clue. it's a fact i'm not super happy about
2020-06-07 14:08:11 ~tiwesdaeg I feel like none of the clients I use do
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2020-06-07 14:08:23 @tomasino if i write
2020-06-07 14:08:25 @tomasino very short lines
2020-06-07 14:08:27 @tomasino like this
2020-06-07 14:08:28 kensanata tiwesdaeg: The iOS client I use is treating every line as a paragraph.
2020-06-07 14:08:30 @tomasino they shouldn't reflow
2020-06-07 14:08:32 ~tiwesdaeg they are just displaying the text as I created it
2020-06-07 14:08:39 @tomasino according to spec, that is
2020-06-07 14:08:51 kensanata «Note also that consecutive non-blank text lines do not form any kind of coherent unit or block such as a "paragraph": all text lines are independent entities.»
2020-06-07 14:09:02 @tomasino ^ there you have it
2020-06-07 14:09:11 @tomasino keeps parsing very VERY simple
2020-06-07 14:09:26 kensanata That's true
2020-06-07 14:09:32 kensanata Gaaaah.
2020-06-07 14:09:42 @tomasino haha, and that's the right reaction as a server writer
2020-06-07 14:09:56 ~tiwesdaeg so, a client shouldn't be adding spacing between lines
2020-06-07 14:10:15 kensanata Well, I read that as every line is a paragraph.
2020-06-07 14:10:19 ~tiwesdaeg just wrapping if the lines exceed the display limit
2020-06-07 14:10:27 kensanata Whether you add spacing to paragraphs is a different matter,
2020-06-07 14:10:31 kensanata Yes.
2020-06-07 14:10:32 @tomasino that's a good question, tiwesdaeg
2020-06-07 14:10:50 @tomasino i mean, clients can display "paragraphs" in whatever formatting they want
2020-06-07 14:10:51 kensanata I think it's pretty unambiguous.
2020-06-07 14:10:54 @tomasino you could add bottom spacing
2020-06-07 14:11:02 @tomasino but short blocks of text in sequence are each paragraphs
2020-06-07 14:11:12 kensanata «Text lines which are longer than can fit on a client's display device SHOULD be "wrapped" to fit, i.e. long lines should be split (ideally at whitespace or at hyphens) into multiple consecutive lines of a device-appropriate width. This wrapping is applied to each line of text independently.»
2020-06-07 14:12:13 ~tiwesdaeg So, if you want to ensure your text comes out looking like a paragraph on a narrow display, you need to put it on one line
2020-06-07 14:12:30 @tomasino hmm, so even in the rendered version there's no concept of a paragraph
2020-06-07 14:12:43 ~tiwesdaeg otherwise you get this effect
2020-06-07 14:12:44 @tomasino and we should do long line <blank line> long line <blank line> if we want spacing
2020-06-07 14:12:46 ~tiwesdaeg xxxxxxxxxxxx
2020-06-07 14:12:48 ~tiwesdaeg xxxx
2020-06-07 14:12:50 ~tiwesdaeg yyyyyyyyyyy
2020-06-07 14:12:52 ~tiwesdaeg yyyy
2020-06-07 14:13:30 ~tiwesdaeg yeah, I don't think a client should be adding spacing on its own
2020-06-07 14:13:45 @tomasino that probably deserves a spec note
2020-06-07 14:14:12 kensanata tiwesdaeg: This is exactly the effect I'm getting right now with the iOS client.
2020-06-07 14:15:57 ~tiwesdaeg I've been formatting my .gmi files as I would gopher, setting my own line length limits
2020-06-07 14:16:05 kensanata Same.
2020-06-07 14:17:00 ~tiwesdaeg I feel like there should be a way, besides putting a paragraph on one long line, to denote that this body of text is one paragraph, wrap as needed
2020-06-07 14:17:44 ~tiwesdaeg single line paragraphs just suck from the content generation viewpoint
2020-06-07 14:19:01 ~tiwesdaeg what about this?
2020-06-07 14:19:13 ~tiwesdaeg First line of paragraph\n
2020-06-07 14:19:25 ~tiwesdaeg < Second line of paragraph\n
2020-06-07 14:19:40 ~tiwesdaeg < Last line of paragraph\n
2020-06-07 14:19:53 @tomasino doesn't work well with text editors just doing hard wrapping
2020-06-07 14:21:30 ~tiwesdaeg it really only seems like this will be an issue on narrow displays
2020-06-07 14:22:24 @tomasino text wrapping?
2020-06-07 14:22:33 @tomasino or authoring?
2020-06-07 14:26:25 ~tiwesdaeg text wrapping
2020-06-07 14:26:56 ~tiwesdaeg well
2020-06-07 14:27:08 @tomasino this is true, but it was a hot-button issue in the text formatting wars of the early mailing list
2020-06-07 14:27:12 ~tiwesdaeg as we keep authoring to fit our needs of file readability
2020-06-07 14:27:23 @tomasino i see the current solution as "not what i would have chosen, but i can work with it"
2020-06-07 14:28:06 ~tiwesdaeg maybe when we get an android client out there as well and people start complaining it looks bad on mobile
2020-06-07 14:29:09 ~tiwesdaeg I could always just make everything cgi, and use printf instead of echo, then remember to add the \n on the last line of the paragraph
2020-06-07 14:29:55 @tomasino i hope we get an android client soon
2020-06-07 14:30:19 ~tiwesdaeg yes please
2020-06-07 14:30:20 @tomasino i'd do a lot more gemini reading if i could do it on the couch in the other room
2020-06-07 14:30:40 ~tiwesdaeg you can use one of the web proxies from the phone
2020-06-07 14:30:49 ~tiwesdaeg I think I had to do a lot of zooming though
2020-06-07 14:31:44 ~tiwesdaeg I'm going to try redoing tilde.pink's index.gmi paragraphs the gemini way
2020-06-07 14:31:47 ~tiwesdaeg see how it looks
2020-06-07 14:35:34 @tomasino the proxies are barely viable right now
2020-06-07 14:35:48 @tomasino they allow me to see stuff, but they fail almost all the torture tests
2020-06-07 14:36:18 @tomasino i made cosmic just ouput everything that's not a link with a ``` wrapper
2020-06-07 14:36:25 ~tiwesdaeg gemini://tilde.pink/
2020-06-07 14:36:34 ~tiwesdaeg now with wrapped paragraphs!
2020-06-07 14:36:42 @tomasino https://tildegit.org/cosmic/cosmic/src/branch/master/awk/gophermap2gemini.awk
2020-06-07 14:37:03 @tomasino that worked. :D
2020-06-07 14:37:09 kensanata "not what i would have chosen, but i can work with it" 👍
2020-06-07 14:37:17 ~tiwesdaeg index.gmi is a cgi script
2020-06-07 14:37:41 ~tiwesdaeg I just did the printf trick and made sure every line ended with a space except for the last one
2020-06-07 14:37:49 @tomasino hah, smart
2020-06-07 14:39:07 ~tiwesdaeg hmmm, bombadillo wraps in the middle of words
2020-06-07 14:39:23 ironzorg in my made up markup format inspired after Gemini, I made it so lines that start with a space within a paragraph are appended to the previous one :) those that don't still respect the linebreak though
2020-06-07 14:40:36 ~tiwesdaeg I thought about that too when I was pondering it
2020-06-07 14:41:25 @tomasino i hate to see meta-languages already getting created
2020-06-07 14:41:27 @tomasino that's a bad sign
2020-06-07 14:42:47 ironzorg if you're passive-agressively refering to my remark, what I came up with is entirely incompatible with the current implementation
2020-06-07 14:44:46 ~tiwesdaeg I think he was referring more to the fact that the gemini standard may have some major issues if people are already creating meta-languages
2020-06-07 14:45:01 ~tiwesdaeg to fulfill needs it doesn't meet very well
2020-06-07 14:45:42 jba has quit (Client exited)
2020-06-07 14:47:01 @tomasino yes, not passive aggressive at all. It's a serious problem for gemini
2020-06-07 14:50:05 kensanata has quit (The TLS connection was non-properly terminated.)
2020-06-07 15:13:16 @julienxx Castor should wrap to adapt to the window width, not when resizing though
2020-06-07 15:39:13 @tomasino julienxx: castor's wrapping is weird when it falls to the left like this - https://ttm.sh/Qqy.png
2020-06-07 15:39:20 @tomasino is that intentional, or do i have a weird setting or something
2020-06-07 15:41:00 @tomasino also, i recently emailed the mailing list that the examples in 5.3.2 of the spec aren't rendering right. That was based on viewing it in Castor
2020-06-07 15:41:05 @tomasino that looks like this: https://ttm.sh/Qq6.png
2020-06-07 15:43:31 @tomasino looks like it renders properly in av98
2020-06-07 15:48:58 @julienxx tomasino: That was intentional, just like a new paragraph. Also it was easier to do :D
2020-06-07 15:50:32 @julienxx There is a global margin which affects only the beginning of the line, haven’t investigated much why yet
2020-06-07 15:52:42 @tomasino ahh, i can see it on paragraphs, but it threw me off because the headings were also indented with it, so i thought it was an accident
2020-06-07 15:52:53 @tomasino writing up a message to castor's ML about the spec thing
2020-06-07 15:55:57 @julienxx having everything glued to the left hand side of the window didn't look right, I'll see what I can do about it
2020-06-07 15:57:08 ~tiwesdaeg kristall implemented customizable margins
2020-06-07 15:57:20 ~tiwesdaeg the default is like 55px
2020-06-07 15:57:51 @julienxx oh nice, gotta see if GTK supports this
2020-06-07 15:59:48 ~tiwesdaeg I need to give castor the same theme treatment I did for kristall
2020-06-07 16:00:07 ~tiwesdaeg it's interesting to set them side by side and see how they render differently
2020-06-07 16:02:15 @julienxx I wanna add the optional per domain or user color scheme, this looks fun!
2020-06-07 16:04:10 @julienxx the header navigation is nice for very big documents but for regular phlogs and stuff I'm not sure, so maybe later. First TOFU, async UI, colors and Castor should be good for a 1.0 release.
2020-06-07 16:05:14 @julienxx I also need to make my ansi colors parsing better as some gemini places don't render well. konpeito looks nice and that was the goal initially
2020-06-07 16:33:26 dkibi does the standard allow justified text?
2020-06-07 16:34:35 @tomasino i would interpret it as yes
2020-06-07 16:36:09 @tomasino oh shit, > is in spec now!
2020-06-07 16:36:10 @tomasino nice
2020-06-07 16:36:21 @tomasino (see ML that just came from solderpunk)
2020-06-07 16:38:34 @julienxx neat, I wonder how I should display quotes...
2020-06-07 16:39:35 @julienxx anyone uses them in the wild yet?
2020-06-07 16:42:03 @tomasino i have one i'm about to update
2020-06-07 16:42:05 @tomasino from a phlog reply
2020-06-07 16:42:07 @tomasino one sec
2020-06-07 16:42:21 dkibi I hope in 5 years or so we have clients who can do proper nice justified text with all the typographic bells and whistles, something the web can still not do
2020-06-07 16:42:46 @tomasino gemini://tilde.black/users/fox/journal/20200602-re-replies.gmi
2020-06-07 16:42:54 @julienxx perfecto
2020-06-07 16:43:43 @tomasino did my castor mailing list post come through?
2020-06-07 16:43:59 @julienxx yes!
2020-06-07 16:44:14 @tomasino cool cool
2020-06-07 16:46:51 @julienxx working with sr.ht is really nice I find, the mailing list for projects is very cool and git patches by email is the best!
2020-06-07 16:49:49 @tomasino i still have never played with git email stuff
2020-06-07 16:50:01 @tomasino every time i see it i just take a deep sigh and then do something else
2020-06-07 16:51:48 @tomasino one day, maybe
2020-06-07 16:53:14 dkibi I wonder if email based thing would generally work well in gemini space e.g. for gemlog comments
2020-06-07 16:53:51 @tomasino here's a stupid and insecure way:
2020-06-07 16:53:53 @julienxx tomasino: the intro video for aerc shows the mail flow https://aerc-mail.org/
2020-06-07 16:54:17 @tomasino generate a unique postfix alias per post. point alias at a script that processes incoming mail, strips headers, and appends comments to original post.
2020-06-07 16:54:19 @julienxx too bad I can't make it run on openbsd
2020-06-07 16:55:12 dkibi well at least with text/gemini the worst thing one can do is to add unveted link lines
2020-06-07 16:55:39 @tomasino he pronounced vi as "vee"
2020-06-07 16:55:44 @tomasino that totally threw me off
2020-06-07 16:57:21 @julienxx Hahaha
2020-06-07 16:58:53 ~tiwesdaeg that is... weird
2020-06-07 16:59:38 @tomasino aerc is pretty cool though
2020-06-07 16:59:46 dkibi hm I pronounce vim as veem and I think I used to pronounce vi as vee
2020-06-07 17:00:04 @tomasino i say "vee-eye" and "vim like him"
2020-06-07 17:00:14 ~tiwesdaeg vee-eye and vim as in him
2020-06-07 17:00:16 ~tiwesdaeg haha
2020-06-07 17:00:19 @tomasino :D
2020-06-07 17:00:33 ~tiwesdaeg can you spot the native english speakers?
2020-06-07 17:03:06 ~tiwesdaeg aerc has so many dependencies
2020-06-07 17:03:22 ~tiwesdaeg I love how bombadillo just compiles nice and quick
2020-06-07 17:04:10 ~tiwesdaeg julienxx: did you use make or gmake for aerc?
2020-06-07 17:04:32 ~tiwesdaeg also, I found out openbsd uses a very old release of gcc
2020-06-07 17:04:53 @julienxx I used go build I think
2020-06-07 17:06:05 ~tiwesdaeg looks like my version is too old :(
2020-06-07 17:06:34 ~tiwesdaeg I think my package is out of date
2020-06-07 17:06:55 @tomasino i should write a cron to just pull & build all these gemini projects nightly
2020-06-07 17:07:26 ~tiwesdaeg haha
2020-06-07 17:07:33 ~tiwesdaeg it is very hard to keep up to date
2020-06-07 17:10:39 ~tiwesdaeg hmm, I do have 1.13+ on this desktop
2020-06-07 17:14:50 ~tiwesdaeg julienxx: try running make, not go build
2020-06-07 17:15:09 ~tiwesdaeg I build with no issues on netbsd 9.0 using native make
2020-06-07 17:15:23 ~tiwesdaeg the instructions on the website say to use make as well
2020-06-07 17:15:43 ~tiwesdaeg now I need to figure out why I have an old go version on tilde.pink
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2020-06-07 17:30:03 ~tiwesdaeg there we go, built and installed on tilde.pink
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2020-06-07 18:08:04 kensanata 🙬🙭🙯🙮 ... so many rockets
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2020-06-07 18:14:09 xq good evening
2020-06-07 18:22:15 kensanata Is the elpher author ever on here?
2020-06-07 18:24:46 kensanata I'm surprised to see a Tcl/Tk client. I think I gave away a Tcl/Tk book a decado ago or so. And yet it's still alive!
2020-06-07 18:36:10 ~tiwesdaeg heya xq
2020-06-07 18:44:37 xq now: Star Wars Episode V and "Learn Gopher"
2020-06-07 19:28:13 @julienxx That’s a good evening!
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2020-06-07 19:47:19 acdw hey yall!
2020-06-07 19:47:52 ~tiwesdaeg yo
2020-06-07 19:48:15 acdw wild times in geminispace this weekend eh? new protocol stuff!
2020-06-07 19:49:16 xq hey
2020-06-07 19:50:28 acdw hi xq!
2020-06-07 19:59:28 kensanata acdw: What's new?
2020-06-07 20:00:52 acdw not much -- went camping this weekend and pushed an update to bollux :)
2020-06-07 20:00:59 acdw what's new with you?
2020-06-07 20:01:40 xq https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPRA0W1kECg
2020-06-07 20:01:43 xq whoops wrong chat
2020-06-07 20:01:47 acdw lolol
2020-06-07 20:01:52 kensanata This weekend... I converted about 10'000 pages from text/markdown to text/gemini... Just kidding. But they are now served as such.
2020-06-07 20:02:06 acdw oh cool!
2020-06-07 20:02:36 kensanata Also, leaving anonymous single-paragraph comments is now possible. Including answering a security question.
2020-06-07 20:02:48 acdw i have a couple of projects I want to convert to be served over gemini....but i've been doing other stuff
2020-06-07 20:03:01 kensanata "Other stuff" is the bane of my existence.
2020-06-07 20:03:08 acdw that's great -- 1 step closer to fediverse over gemini!
2020-06-07 20:03:11 acdw hahah YES
2020-06-07 20:03:13 acdw gemiverse
2020-06-07 20:03:17 acdw gediverse
2020-06-07 20:03:35 kensanata super-brutaldon...
2020-06-07 20:03:46 acdw awww yis
2020-06-07 20:04:17 kensanata Too bad all this ActivityPub stuff seems way to complicated to me. I can barely handle the Mastodon Client protocol.
2020-06-07 20:04:29 kensanata too
2020-06-07 20:04:41 acdw yeah I haven't even looked at that -- or rather I lookd at a little bit and after the first paragraph was lik NOE
2020-06-07 20:05:15 kensanata Heh.
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2020-06-07 21:27:42 xq i love how Kristall just makes the auto-styling :D
2020-06-07 21:27:52 xq it's really nice to see domain changes with that
2020-06-07 21:32:53 styan xq: I did figure out why libtls did not like your site. It defaults to TLS 1.2 only.
2020-06-07 21:33:58 xq can you elaborate that?
2020-06-07 21:36:18 styan libtls (by default) only allows TLS 1.2 connections, and your Gemini server did not appreciate that restriction.
2020-06-07 21:38:47 xq hm
2020-06-07 21:39:17 xq yeah
2020-06-07 21:39:28 xq i removed some code from gemserve
2020-06-07 21:39:38 xq as it does not compile
2020-06-07 21:39:45 xq > acceptor.set_min_proto_version(Some(SslVersion::TLS1_2))?;
2020-06-07 21:39:50 xq this line fails to compile on my server
2020-06-07 21:41:08 xq my server seems to be too old
2020-06-07 21:41:23 xq :D
2020-06-07 21:41:41 xq looks like it's time to finally migrate to a new VPS
2020-06-07 21:42:34 styan I just need to add an option to allow "legasy" protocol versions to my library.
2020-06-07 21:42:46 styan s/legasy/legacy/
2020-06-07 21:43:05 xq :D
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2020-06-07 21:49:43 styan xq: The default font-size in kristall is bigger than it is expecting. The ASCII art in the style menu is wrapping at the default window size, and some of the menu-items in the drop-downs are overlapping the hotkey descriptions.
2020-06-07 21:50:22 xq yeah i noticed the menu thing already :(
2020-06-07 21:50:47 xq and the wrapping ascii art is a known problem as preformatted lines don't nowrap atm
2020-06-07 21:50:51 xq have to find out how to make it work
2020-06-07 21:51:23 styan That they are wrapping with the default window size was my concern.
2020-06-07 21:52:20 xq that's system dependent i think
2020-06-07 21:52:31 xq i adjusted window size already a bit
2020-06-07 21:53:23 xq but i'll take a look
2020-06-07 21:54:04 styan Also, did you see my Makefile quibble?
2020-06-07 21:55:01 xq yeah, but i forgot half of it already :D
2020-06-07 21:55:03 styan `{body}lt;' in a non-suffix rule does not work in bmake(1).
2020-06-07 21:55:13 xq what's a non-suffix rule?
2020-06-07 21:55:38 styan .c.o:
2020-06-07 21:56:03 styan Basically, extention matching automatic rules.
2020-06-07 21:56:18 xq ah
2020-06-07 21:57:07 xq so what'S the correect way to select the first dependency then?
2020-06-07 21:57:19 xq i could probably use $^ ?
2020-06-07 21:57:20 styan `{body}gt;' is non-standard, but more portable, and just writing out the source is POSIX.
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2020-06-07 21:57:59 xq can you send me the full rule then?
2020-06-07 21:58:07 styan `{body}gt;' is ALLSRC though, so it is not *just* the first source.
2020-06-07 21:59:31 styan https://paste.tildeverse.org/?7e06f50d251d4481#G65cRRrT3x2ihd95o8vJCyR3EN1TBzgmcoqqqS3AMYjk
2020-06-07 22:00:40 styan ^ That was a quick polishing, it is not 100% POSIX (.PHONY:) but it will work in pretty much any make(1).
2020-06-07 22:02:09 xq thanks! ♥
2020-06-07 22:04:44 styan I do not think that .PHONY will work on Illumos' dmake(1), so you should probably put that back at the bottom so it does not become the default target (the first target encountered).
2020-06-07 22:12:02 xq changed it
2020-06-07 22:12:05 xq will update with the next push
2020-06-07 22:12:49 styan Now it will "just work" on *BSD (if you have QT5 installed) :-)
2020-06-07 22:13:07 xq neat
2020-06-07 22:13:11 xq that's an achievement!
2020-06-07 22:20:06 styan If you ever need to know about *NIX tools portability, I have read way too much about it, so you can ask me. :-)
2020-06-07 22:27:51 xq thanks for the offer
2020-06-07 22:28:03 xq but i'm tired, i'm going to bed now… just need to do a small push *grin*
2020-06-07 22:29:42 xq screenshot of the day: https://mq32.de/public/7df063a9221f3ac32001d8bbbde85ac4791703c4.png
2020-06-07 22:29:52 xq tomasino is probably being happy about this
2020-06-07 22:30:41 styan It looks nice!
2020-06-07 22:30:43 @tomasino Which sexy client is that
2020-06-07 22:31:02 xq Still Kristall!
2020-06-07 22:31:07 @tomasino Nice
2020-06-07 22:31:09 xq but now with gopher!
2020-06-07 22:31:17 @tomasino Double nice
2020-06-07 22:31:25 @tomasino What do I need to install that
2020-06-07 22:31:38 xq qt5, a c++ compiler and a make
2020-06-07 22:31:51 xq will add icons to the different gopher entries
2020-06-07 22:32:04 xq fetch it here: https://github.com/MasterQ32/kristall
2020-06-07 22:32:42 styan It should not need gmake either :-)
2020-06-07 22:33:11 @tomasino qt5...
2020-06-07 22:33:25 @tomasino I'll have to look at what that takes, but I'll try it tonight
2020-06-07 22:33:43 xq neat, i'm going to bed now :D
2020-06-07 22:33:48 @tomasino Night
2020-06-07 22:33:48 xq work is calling tomorrow morning
2020-06-07 22:33:56 xq night! and try Kristall, it is really good! :D
2020-06-07 22:34:11 ⚡ xq puts an advertising sign on the door after leaving
2020-06-07 22:34:17 styan Good night.
2020-06-07 22:42:05 ~tiwesdaeg tomasino: I got it to build on netbsd and openbsd
2020-06-07 22:42:44 ~tiwesdaeg openbsd had some issues, but netbsd compiled just fine
2020-06-07 22:46:03 ~tiwesdaeg awww, I thought he had pushed gopher already
2020-06-07 22:54:25 styan I just updated it, and it has Gopher support.
2020-06-07 22:55:14 styan Though, gopher does not use a monospace font yet.
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2020-06-07 23:23:49 @tomasino is there any way to install QT without having to register with them and go through a bunch of hoops?
2020-06-07 23:23:57 @tomasino I just want to build kristall
2020-06-07 23:24:26 kayw install the dev package for your system?
2020-06-07 23:24:29 @tomasino this website is a labyrinth of crap i don't care about
2020-06-07 23:24:38 @tomasino yeah, that's what i want to do, not sure where to find it
2020-06-07 23:24:55 kayw what distro?
2020-06-07 23:25:04 @tomasino ubuntu 18.04
2020-06-07 23:25:44 kayw uhh
2020-06-07 23:26:04 kayw looks like it should be `qt5-devel`
2020-06-07 23:26:18 kayw oh no
2020-06-07 23:26:19 kayw wait
2020-06-07 23:26:25 kayw it's `qtbase5-dev`
2020-06-07 23:26:30 @tomasino in apt?
2020-06-07 23:26:58 kayw yeah
2020-06-07 23:27:14 @tomasino hrm, i already had that installed apparently
2020-06-07 23:27:18 @tomasino but make failed spectacularly
2020-06-07 23:27:22 @tomasino lets see why...
2020-06-07 23:28:35 @tomasino https://wiki.qt.io/Install_Qt_5_on_Ubuntu
2020-06-07 23:28:37 @tomasino gonna try this
2020-06-07 23:28:57 @tomasino or not
2020-06-07 23:30:41 kayw maybe `qt5-default`?
2020-06-07 23:32:26 @tomasino that's installed too
2020-06-07 23:32:32 @tomasino i think it's the extras he mentions
2020-06-07 23:32:35 @tomasino widgets and so on
2020-06-07 23:32:43 @tomasino widgets & network
2020-06-07 23:33:59 @tomasino nope, i have those too
2020-06-07 23:34:01 @tomasino already, and automatic
2020-06-07 23:34:06 @tomasino so why is this blowing up
2020-06-07 23:35:26 @tomasino ../src/geminirenderer.hpp:32:17: error: ‘unique_ptr’ in namespace ‘std’ does not name a template type
2020-06-07 23:35:26 @tomasino static std::unique_ptr<GeminiDocument> render(
2020-06-07 23:35:34 @tomasino that's the first of many, many errors
2020-06-07 23:35:50 @tomasino i guess i'll bug xq when they're back
2020-06-07 23:36:58 styan They said that kristall uses a few c++17 bits.
2020-06-07 23:42:23 @tomasino hrm, does htat require a newer gcc or something?
2020-06-07 23:42:28 @tomasino meh, no clue
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2020-06-08 00:19:10 ~tiwesdaeg tomasino:
2020-06-08 00:19:17 ~tiwesdaeg how are you trying to compile it?
2020-06-08 00:20:06 @tomasino make
2020-06-08 00:20:08 @tomasino :D
2020-06-08 00:20:15 @tomasino i tried the other method in the readme too
2020-06-08 00:20:30 ~tiwesdaeg should be, git pull... / cd kristall / mkdir build / cd build / qmake ../src/kristall.pro / make install
2020-06-08 00:21:08 ~tiwesdaeg he did put everything is src just recently, not sure if the readme was updated
2020-06-08 00:22:08 @tomasino i did that method too
2020-06-08 00:24:19 acdw I had to set my QT version before building: `make QT_SELECT=5`
2020-06-08 00:30:18 @tomasino https://ttm.sh/Q05.txt
2020-06-08 00:33:03 acdw :O
2020-06-08 00:33:11 acdw That's beyond my paygrade lol
2020-06-08 00:34:36 @tomasino hehe
2020-06-08 00:34:40 ⚡ tomasino shrugs
2020-06-08 00:35:39 acdw but hey, tomasino, I just checked bollux on tilde.black and tilde.institute and it's working for me... can you check it on yr end to let me know what errors you're finding?
2020-06-08 00:36:00 @tomasino sure!
2020-06-08 00:36:43 @tomasino well, the makefile starts with this:
2020-06-08 00:36:45 @tomasino install -Dt /usr/bin/ bollux
2020-06-08 00:36:45 @tomasino install: unknown option -- t
2020-06-08 00:36:45 @tomasino usage: install [-bCcDdFpSs] [-B suffix] [-f flags] [-g group] [-m mode] [-o owner]
2020-06-08 00:36:45 @tomasino source ... target ...
2020-06-08 00:36:45 @tomasino *** Error 1 in /root/git/bollux (Makefile:14 'install')
2020-06-08 00:36:51 @tomasino i'll manually copy it to path
2020-06-08 00:37:51 @tomasino works!
2020-06-08 00:38:02 @tomasino yep, just the makefile that is a sad, sad man
2020-06-08 00:38:17 @tomasino install -m 755 bollux /usr/local/bin/ # works fine
2020-06-08 00:38:54 ⚡ tomasino shimmies
2020-06-08 00:38:57 @tomasino i like bollux
2020-06-08 00:39:06 @tomasino and now we have av98 on black as well (and cosmic)
2020-06-08 00:39:50 makeworld tomasino: tilde.black is still serving tabs in between its status and metas
2020-06-08 00:40:00 @tomasino oh yeah?
2020-06-08 00:40:06 @tomasino gotta update jetforce again, i guess
2020-06-08 00:40:07 @tomasino uno momento
2020-06-08 00:40:14 makeworld What version?
2020-06-08 00:40:44 @tomasino how about now?
2020-06-08 00:40:46 @tomasino i just upgraded
2020-06-08 00:41:14 @tomasino last time i upgraded on black was for the security patch that leaked info through ..
2020-06-08 00:41:21 makeworld Still a tab I think
2020-06-08 00:41:37 makeworld Idk, my server and yours are doing different behaviour for some reason
2020-06-08 00:42:01 makeworld For example mine just closes the connection when I send a bad URL, but yours reports it with a ta
2020-06-08 00:42:02 makeworld *tab
2020-06-08 00:42:15 makeworld echo -e -n 'test\r\n' | gnutls-cli -p 1965 --insecure tilde.black
2020-06-08 00:42:21 makeworld That returns an error code
2020-06-08 00:42:34 makeworld But doing the same with makeworld.gq just closes the connection
2020-06-08 00:42:55 makeworld Like it doesn't seem like they're running the same server
2020-06-08 00:43:12 makeworld I'm running jetforce 0.3.2
2020-06-08 00:43:24 makeworld You're probably on 0.2.1?
2020-06-08 00:46:22 @tomasino it says 0.3.2
2020-06-08 00:47:13 acdw hey tomasino, sorry for being away; I sometimes think I'm not great @ IRC. But great! I'll update the Makefile :)
2020-06-08 00:47:36 @tomasino you're doing IRC just fine. people pop in and out
2020-06-08 00:47:59 @tomasino a highlight window is a good addition if you don't have one. Then people can just do "acdw ^" and leave you a note for later
2020-06-08 00:49:11 acdw Oh yes!
2020-06-08 00:51:28 acdw tomasino: pushed :)
2020-06-08 00:52:29 @tomasino and there we go
2020-06-08 00:52:37 @tomasino no errors
2020-06-08 00:53:06 @tomasino cosmic.voyage looks so sexy in bollux
2020-06-08 00:53:32 acdw :D
2020-06-08 00:53:38 acdw awesome possum I'm so happy
2020-06-08 00:53:58 acdw any sexyness-related suggestions are welcome
2020-06-08 00:54:47 @tomasino i use "o" to open a link while i'm looking at it, but it kicks me over to the big list of links when i "o" and i lose my place
2020-06-08 00:56:36 acdw yes that's like, the worst part. It's a limitation of less only letting me pipe to programs, and only allowing customization of 10 exit codes
2020-06-08 00:56:54 @tomasino ahha
2020-06-08 00:56:58 @tomasino well, okay then. :D
2020-06-08 00:57:00 acdw I could 'cancel' the o with another keybind, but it'd reload the page
2020-06-08 00:57:03 acdw it's so frustratin!
2020-06-08 00:57:20 @tomasino brool's stoned.txt looks sexy too
2020-06-08 00:57:44 acdw I'm thinking about just adding a command line option in bollux itself to like, open a link number. oooor I could extract the url and have it exec $0
2020-06-08 00:57:48 acdw hmmmmmm
2020-06-08 00:58:01 acdw I thought this was a done deal but now I'm thinking
2020-06-08 00:58:31 @tomasino :D
2020-06-08 00:58:38 @tomasino i'm gonna celebrate by going to bed
2020-06-08 00:58:41 @tomasino peace all
2020-06-08 00:58:52 acdw o/
2020-06-08 00:58:54 acdw night!
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2020-06-08 08:01:16 tadzik hello #gemini o/
2020-06-08 08:14:41 @julienxx Hi!
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2020-06-08 10:19:27 xq heyhey
2020-06-08 10:57:29 xq implemented some new features for Kristall on the bus
2020-06-08 10:57:40 xq it can now display video files and play back audio files
2020-06-08 11:52:30 @tomasino good morning xq !
2020-06-08 11:52:45 @tomasino i tried installing Kristall last night, but i ended up with this: https://ttm.sh/Q05.txt
2020-06-08 12:00:22 ℹ `epochbot is now known as epoch
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2020-06-08 12:12:22 xq what compiler did you use?
2020-06-08 12:12:33 xq you need a c++ compiler that can work with C++17
2020-06-08 12:17:33 @tomasino i'm not sure
2020-06-08 12:17:45 @tomasino i have gcc and cc, what do you use?
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2020-06-08 12:18:51 @tomasino looking inthe build dir makefile i see:
2020-06-08 12:18:53 @tomasino CC = gcc
2020-06-08 12:18:53 @tomasino CXX = g++
2020-06-08 12:26:46 xq what g++ version is that?
2020-06-08 12:27:22 xq and what OS are you on?
2020-06-08 12:31:54 @tomasino ubuntu 18.04
2020-06-08 12:31:56 @tomasino let me check!
2020-06-08 12:32:30 @tomasino g++ (Ubuntu 7.5.0-3ubuntu1~18.04) 7.5.0
2020-06-08 12:33:52 xq hmm
2020-06-08 12:34:16 xq can you add a
2020-06-08 12:34:19 xq #include <memory>
2020-06-08 12:34:23 xq at top of browsertab.hpp ?
2020-06-08 12:34:27 xq just pack it to the other includes
2020-06-08 12:37:54 @tomasino hat got rid of most of the errors
2020-06-08 12:37:55 @tomasino https://ttm.sh/Q0r.txt
2020-06-08 12:37:58 @tomasino that's all that's left
2020-06-08 12:43:25 xq o, whoops
2020-06-08 12:43:45 ⚡ xq may be a bit stupid :D
2020-06-08 12:44:19 xq you can just comment that statement
2020-06-08 12:44:56 xq https://github.com/MasterQ32/kristall/blob/master/src/browsertab.cpp#L335-L344
2020-06-08 12:45:01 xq prepend all these lines with //
2020-06-08 12:45:05 xq and you should be good to go
2020-06-08 12:47:06 @julienxx Pushed Castor 0.8.14 with quotes support and better wrapping, tomasino it should fix the issue you raised yesterday regarding links in ``` and text alignment.
2020-06-08 12:48:50 tadzik julienxx: oh, am I right to assume you develop asuka as well?
2020-06-08 12:49:16 tadzik ``` reminded me that asuka actually renders these incorrectly, as I noticed when reading the spec on it yesterday :)
2020-06-08 12:51:44 @tomasino commented out, and now: https://ttm.sh/Q0s.txt
2020-06-08 12:51:45 @tomasino hehe
2020-06-08 12:51:50 @tomasino this is pretty funny
2020-06-08 12:51:52 @julienxx yes I do Asuka too
2020-06-08 12:52:10 @tomasino thanks julienxx !
2020-06-08 12:52:33 @tomasino building now
2020-06-08 12:52:51 @tomasino i love these projects
2020-06-08 12:53:01 @tomasino i'm excited to try Kristall soon
2020-06-08 12:53:11 @julienxx ah forgot to update the README, doing it right now
2020-06-08 12:54:21 @tomasino my cpu fan is preparing for takeoff
2020-06-08 12:54:26 @tomasino that's how you know the compiling is good
2020-06-08 12:59:54 @julienxx sorry will have to push again, just noticed a small mistake
2020-06-08 13:00:17 @tomasino OHNOES
2020-06-08 13:00:18 @tomasino :D
2020-06-08 13:00:19 @tomasino no biggy
2020-06-08 13:01:24 @julienxx for quotes my background color setting was using foreground color setting :D
2020-06-08 13:02:17 @tomasino that would have been ... difficult
2020-06-08 13:02:37 @julienxx All right it should be fixed
2020-06-08 13:02:46 @tomasino building again
2020-06-08 13:02:51 @tomasino let's light this candle
2020-06-08 13:03:00 @tomasino as the astronauts say
2020-06-08 13:03:49 xq tomasino: add "#include <cassert>" to the top of documentoutlinemodel.cpp
2020-06-08 13:05:52 @tomasino okay,same error was on a few other cpp files and i did the same. Up to a new one now: https://ttm.sh/Q09.txt
2020-06-08 13:06:45 ~tiwesdaeg curse you ubuntu!
2020-06-08 13:06:50 @tomasino hehe
2020-06-08 13:06:59 @tomasino am i missing something environment wise?
2020-06-08 13:07:02 ~tiwesdaeg xq: what system are you building it on?
2020-06-08 13:09:55 xq arch
2020-06-08 13:10:09 xq i had the fear with ubuntu :D
2020-06-08 13:10:21 xq yeah, looks like i have to build it with ubuntu
2020-06-08 13:10:31 ~tiwesdaeg we should all fear ubuntu
2020-06-08 13:10:33 xq let me boot up my ubuntu VM
2020-06-08 13:10:36 ⚡ xq doesn't like ubuntu
2020-06-08 13:10:45 @tomasino :D
2020-06-08 13:10:51 @tomasino you want a diff of what i've done so far?
2020-06-08 13:10:51 ~tiwesdaeg debian: yes ubuntu: no
2020-06-08 13:11:14 xq nah, i've written what you should have changed
2020-06-08 13:11:19 @tomasino coolio
2020-06-08 13:11:25 @tomasino i'll reset and wait for a new version then
2020-06-08 13:11:37 ~tiwesdaeg xq: you haven't pushed the gopher support yet?
2020-06-08 13:12:00 ~tiwesdaeg I saw that image you posted, but the build I did this morning still doesn't have it
2020-06-08 13:12:30 xq tiwesdaeg: i have, but i think you have to enable gopher in the settings :D
2020-06-08 13:13:01 @tomasino julienxx: this looks great!
2020-06-08 13:13:25 ~tiwesdaeg ahhh
2020-06-08 13:13:38 @tomasino i'm guessing there's a new color var i need to set in the config for quotes
2020-06-08 13:13:50 ~tiwesdaeg building new castor now
2020-06-08 13:14:09 @julienxx indeed, checkout the README you can set background and foreground this time
2020-06-08 13:14:31 @tomasino found it. thanks!
2020-06-08 13:16:19 @tomasino i like how you're handling wrapping too
2020-06-08 13:16:23 @tomasino this is really solid
2020-06-08 13:19:28 @julienxx cool :)
2020-06-08 13:37:22 xq mr tomasino, can you try again? it builds in my ubuntu 20.04 VM
2020-06-08 13:42:06 ~tiwesdaeg I blame his icelandic copy of ubuntu for being too cold
2020-06-08 13:43:43 xq hrhr
2020-06-08 13:43:50 ⚡ xq blames Ubuntu for being ubuntu
2020-06-08 13:46:53 @tomasino xq: https://ttm.sh/Q0N.txt -- changes I made to get it to work
2020-06-08 13:46:56 @tomasino but it DID work
2020-06-08 13:46:57 @tomasino yay!
2020-06-08 13:47:09 ~tiwesdaeg yes!
2020-06-08 13:47:14 xq nice!
2020-06-08 13:47:17 ~tiwesdaeg welcome to the kristall nation
2020-06-08 13:47:21 @tomasino huzzah
2020-06-08 13:47:30 xq weird that i don't need the asserts :D
2020-06-08 13:47:34 xq but i'll add them
2020-06-08 13:49:21 xq i love *nix
2020-06-08 13:49:28 xq curl https://ttm.sh/Q0N.txt | patch
2020-06-08 13:49:29 xq :D
2020-06-08 13:52:09 @tomasino i figured that would be the easiest way to do it for ya
2020-06-08 13:52:10 @tomasino heh
2020-06-08 13:52:25 xq thanks <3
2020-06-08 13:52:30 xq +2 OS now!
2020-06-08 13:52:38 xq a friend of mine tested MacOS and it also builds there!
2020-06-08 13:53:03 @tomasino i love that i can make the font bigger in Kristall
2020-06-08 13:53:09 ⚡ tomasino has bad vision
2020-06-08 13:53:26 @tomasino i'll have to rig up a desktop file for it later
2020-06-08 13:54:25 xq :)
2020-06-08 13:54:34 xq i think customizability is important
2020-06-08 13:54:53 xq i have to check if i can provide also different UI styles for the Qt widgets
2020-06-08 13:55:08 xq also, in production right now: import/export of custom document styles
2020-06-08 13:57:17 @tomasino kicking the tires on gopher
2020-06-08 13:57:23 @tomasino navigation looks good
2020-06-08 13:57:34 @tomasino i don't think it's using the fixed width font, though... or something's off for ascii art
2020-06-08 13:57:37 @tomasino but otherwise solid
2020-06-08 13:57:50 @tomasino gemini looks stellar
2020-06-08 13:57:53 @tomasino (get it?)
2020-06-08 13:58:21 xq yeah, gopher is not fully ready yet
2020-06-08 13:58:48 xq gopher should use the preformatted font for example
2020-06-08 13:58:57 xq i also want to add type icons instead of a text note
2020-06-08 13:59:06 xq and implement uudecode/hexbin decoding
2020-06-08 14:00:14 @tomasino you're on your way
2020-06-08 14:01:14 xq i still think about the finger implementation though
2020-06-08 14:01:22 xq for static data, it's clear how to solve this
2020-06-08 14:01:27 xq but the reverse ping is giving me a headache
2020-06-08 14:01:33 xq is this a common service?
2020-06-08 14:01:53 @tomasino no, not at all
2020-06-08 14:02:12 xq okay, so i can just show an endless loading icon and allow the user to cancel the request
2020-06-08 14:02:15 @tomasino it's weird because it takes a while to process and respond
2020-06-08 14:02:30 @tomasino normally finger is really quick
2020-06-08 14:05:05 xq okay, so i can just implement it with "display the response as text/plain" and be happy about that
2020-06-08 14:29:57 ~tiwesdaeg xq: openbsd and netbsd = 2 different operating systems
2020-06-08 14:30:21 ~tiwesdaeg very different kernels and binaries are not compatible
2020-06-08 14:31:38 xq tiwesdaeg: I think i'm kinda aware of this, but why do you tell me this? :D
2020-06-08 14:32:25 ~tiwesdaeg I think I read your +2 OS now! as you support 2 os's now
2020-06-08 14:33:10 ~tiwesdaeg has anyone compiled it on windows?
2020-06-08 14:33:15 xq i tried :D
2020-06-08 14:33:31 xq i will do some windows 7/10 builds later
2020-06-08 14:33:40 xq also, what i really want to try:
2020-06-08 14:33:46 xq Qt Widgets support android
2020-06-08 14:33:59 xq would be neat to also have an android app with all these features
2020-06-08 14:34:18 ~tiwesdaeg yes please!
2020-06-08 14:34:38 ~tiwesdaeg some of us really want an android app
2020-06-08 14:35:53 xq :)
2020-06-08 14:53:35 @tomasino xq: i should have remembered i made this -- https://toobnix.org/videos/watch/1b9699da-3c41-48a8-8009-97b756e88a3d
2020-06-08 14:53:43 @tomasino may have saved you a few minutes
2020-06-08 14:54:04 xq :D
2020-06-08 14:54:13 xq i'll watch it later, i probably learn some stuff anyways
2020-06-08 14:57:10 natpen has quit (Ping timeout: 120 seconds)
2020-06-08 15:03:30 ▬▬▶ natpen has joined #gemini
2020-06-08 15:33:13 makeworld My client is starting to feel like the real thing, it's cool
2020-06-08 15:33:32 makeworld I can finally browse around, click links, load URLs, use different tabs, etc
2020-06-08 15:33:33 makeworld Lol
2020-06-08 15:33:59 makeworld Also tomasino tilde.black is still giving me tabs
2020-06-08 15:34:05 xj9 has left #gemini
2020-06-08 15:34:06 ▬▬▶ xj9 has joined #gemini
2020-06-08 15:34:38 @tomasino i'm not sure what else to do. I just pip upgrade and restart jetforce
2020-06-08 15:35:05 makeworld What version do you have? It's so strange to me bc I'm also running Jetforce
2020-06-08 15:35:37 @tomasino jetforce 0.3.2
2020-06-08 15:35:50 @tomasino what about cosmic voyage?
2020-06-08 15:36:15 @tomasino i'm running 0.3.2 on there as well
2020-06-08 15:37:10 makeworld Hmm it's different
2020-06-08 15:37:58 @tomasino maybe it's an openbsd thing
2020-06-08 15:38:06 makeworld It shouldn't be
2020-06-08 15:38:13 makeworld There's some weird stuff going on for sure
2020-06-08 15:38:37 makeworld Because cosmic.voyage and makeworld.gq just close the connection when the URL is wrong
2020-06-08 15:38:57 makeworld But tilde.black returns status code 51, which seems correct
2020-06-08 15:39:24 makeworld Tbh I think it must be an error with the way I'm doing it or something
2020-06-08 15:39:34 makeworld Because it works fine in real clients
2020-06-08 15:39:42 makeworld Like I get a Not Found and everything
2020-06-08 15:39:54 makeworld So maybe it's just my commandline thing that's messing things up
2020-06-08 15:40:08 makeworld Bc I'm just using echo and gnutls-cli
2020-06-08 15:40:24 @tomasino hmm
2020-06-08 15:40:33 @tomasino possibly
2020-06-08 15:40:42 makeworld echo -e -n 'test\r\n' | gnutls-cli -p 1965 --insecure tilde.black
2020-06-08 15:41:07 makeworld However I still think there are issues because I'm getting "can't read header" issues with tilde.black and no one else
2020-06-08 15:41:17 makeworld Clearly there is something different going on
2020-06-08 15:41:53 makeworld Maybe you installed Jetforce in the wrong place? Like with --user but not sudo or something??
2020-06-08 15:42:03 @tomasino installed it as root
2020-06-08 15:42:15 @tomasino it runs as a gemini user though
2020-06-08 15:42:51 makeworld Argh this is very strange
2020-06-08 15:43:16 makeworld The easiest solution is to just fix my client so it works with your server
2020-06-08 15:43:19 makeworld But still
2020-06-08 15:43:33 @tomasino if there's something wrong i'd love to fix it
2020-06-08 15:46:59 makeworld I'll try and look around to see what the issue is but there's definitely something wrong
2020-06-08 15:47:27 makeworld Part of it is my client code, but also I think your server is strange somehow
2020-06-08 15:50:30 @tomasino try it again now
2020-06-08 15:50:35 @tomasino i hard-killed it and restarted
2020-06-08 15:50:43 @tomasino i think maybe my restart didn't take
2020-06-08 15:51:16 makeworld Yep it's down
2020-06-08 15:51:25 @tomasino all the way down?
2020-06-08 15:51:29 @tomasino didn't start back again?
2020-06-08 15:51:30 @tomasino hrm
2020-06-08 15:51:34 makeworld I'm getting connection refused so I think yes
2020-06-08 15:52:14 @tomasino try now?
2020-06-08 15:53:36 ironzorg the server doesn't assume the scheme is gemini:// in the request
2020-06-08 15:54:15 ironzorg 59: printf 'tilde.black\r\n' | openssl s_client -connect tilde.black:1965 -quiet -verify_quiet
2020-06-08 15:54:16 ironzorg 31: printf 'gemini://tilde.black\r\n' | openssl s_client -connect tilde.black:1965 -quiet -verify_quiet
2020-06-08 15:54:23 makeworld It's still sending tabs
2020-06-08 15:54:24 ironzorg unless I'm missing something?
2020-06-08 15:54:48 makeworld Well there's that yeah
2020-06-08 15:54:56 makeworld But also it's sending tabs
2020-06-08 15:55:17 @tomasino still?
2020-06-08 15:55:20 makeworld tomasino: I really doubt that Jetforce v0.3.2 is answering these requests, I think something else is going on. It doesn't make sense
2020-06-08 15:55:21 makeworld Yeah
2020-06-08 15:55:27 makeworld echo -e -n 'gemini://tilde.black\r\n' | gnutls-cli -p 1965 --insecure tilde.black
2020-06-08 15:56:09 @tomasino it's def 0.3.2
2020-06-08 15:56:30 makeworld Argh that's so strange then. It doesn't make any sense how it would be acting different from my server
2020-06-08 15:56:51 @tomasino https://ttm.sh/Q0y.txt
2020-06-08 15:57:00 @tomasino that's my service runner
2020-06-08 15:58:52 makeworld I have no idea
2020-06-08 15:59:01 makeworld Okay maybe this is stupid but
2020-06-08 15:59:10 makeworld What does /usr/local/bin/jetforce --version return?
2020-06-08 15:59:15 @tomasino 0.3.2
2020-06-08 15:59:31 @tomasino and ps confirms, that's the only one running
2020-06-08 15:59:41 makeworld Wow
2020-06-08 16:01:57 makeworld https://github.com/michael-lazar/jetforce/blob/9ac80a986c6ed8a62951c857315ca04b6d127c32/jetforce/protocol.py#L198
2020-06-08 16:02:07 makeworld It looks like even v0.3.2 Jetforce uses a tab lol
2020-06-08 16:02:15 makeworld Still doesn't explain why your server is different
2020-06-08 16:02:34 @tomasino cosmic isn't giving you a tab?
2020-06-08 16:02:38 @tomasino it's also on 0.3.2
2020-06-08 16:04:12 makeworld Actually, cosmic just closes the connection all the time when I use gnutls-cli
2020-06-08 16:04:22 makeworld Just like my site does
2020-06-08 16:04:44 makeworld Bc I'm clearly missing something, idk. My "client" isn't doing what it expects maybe
2020-06-08 16:04:59 makeworld But it also shows that yours is definitely different
2020-06-08 16:05:22 ▬▬▶ acdw has joined #gemini
2020-06-08 16:05:30 @tomasino so strange
2020-06-08 16:05:41 @tomasino cosmic is ubuntu and running jetforce with systemd
2020-06-08 16:05:46 @tomasino but it's still jetforce
2020-06-08 16:06:09 makeworld Yeah it really shouldn't make a difference
2020-06-08 16:06:36 makeworld Can you use a networking command to look at all the processes attached to that port?
2020-06-08 16:07:26 makeworld sudo netstat -tulpn | grep 1965
2020-06-08 16:09:11 makeworld Man this is weird
2020-06-08 16:09:17 @tomasino -tulpn isn't valid in openbsd
2020-06-08 16:09:21 @tomasino must be gnu netstat
2020-06-08 16:09:32 makeworld Oh yeah sorry I'm on linux
2020-06-08 16:10:00 makeworld Idk what the equiv. is but maybe you can from there? Idk what to think lol, I'm just trying to look at what maybe it could be
2020-06-08 16:10:19 makeworld You know better than me what's going on there, I'm just confused why two servers would act different
2020-06-08 16:10:59 @tomasino i'm reading the man pages side by side
2020-06-08 16:11:35 makeworld 👍
2020-06-08 16:12:40 ironzorg clear the Python pyc cache
2020-06-08 16:14:18 makeworld Where even is that?
2020-06-08 16:14:25 @tomasino python3 -m pip --no-cache-dir install --upgrade --force jetforce
2020-06-08 16:14:29 @tomasino i'm doing this
2020-06-08 16:14:50 @tomasino forcing a clean rebuild
2020-06-08 16:14:59 @tomasino there's only one thing listening to 1965
2020-06-08 16:15:09 @tomasino netstat on bsd is NOTHING like gnu netstat
2020-06-08 16:15:11 @tomasino it's frustrating
2020-06-08 16:15:34 makeworld Ah damn
2020-06-08 16:15:51 makeworld Maybe sudo ss -tulpn | grep 1965
2020-06-08 16:15:59 makeworld Idk if ss is different on openbsd
2020-06-08 16:18:13 makeworld tomasino: Won't that command maybe install to the local user folder?
2020-06-08 16:18:19 makeworld You might want to use sudo
2020-06-08 16:20:35 @tomasino i'm root
2020-06-08 16:21:00 xq tomasino: https://mq32.de/public/1f362dda4c567c6a6c5481062f29b36fa76b0f16.png
2020-06-08 16:21:03 xq got some stuff improved :)
2020-06-08 16:21:22 @tomasino so pretty
2020-06-08 16:21:39 @tomasino interesting... this python build failed
2020-06-08 16:21:45 @tomasino incompatable dependencies
2020-06-08 16:21:57 @tomasino upgraded pip and trying again
2020-06-08 16:23:20 makeworld Hmm
2020-06-08 16:23:58 makeworld So there was definitely something going on, some old software somewhere - maybe?
2020-06-08 16:24:05 @tomasino ERROR: requests 2.22.0 has requirement idna<2.9,>=2.5, but you'll have idna 2.9 which is incompatible.
2020-06-08 16:24:05 makeworld Definitely maybe
2020-06-08 16:24:22 makeworld Uninstall idna and try again?
2020-06-08 16:24:49 makeworld If you need idna for something else you'll be stuck in Python dep hell and have to create a virtualenv probably
2020-06-08 16:25:16 companion_cube python packaging seems like a nightmare…
2020-06-08 16:25:36 @tomasino i love python the language, and absolutely abhore pip
2020-06-08 16:26:33 acdw It seems that the "correct" command to use for python packaging keeps changing, as well -- pip, poetry, python -m venv, etc etc etc
2020-06-08 16:26:40 @tomasino yep
2020-06-08 16:26:46 acdw I know those are all different, but they're not different enough for me to keep them straight
2020-06-08 16:27:04 companion_cube that's why people are so eager to move to Go for devops stuff
2020-06-08 16:27:08 companion_cube just get one binary, end of story
2020-06-08 16:27:09 acdw I feel like the Python community should stop everything until they get first-class packaging support like go, or rust
2020-06-08 16:27:24 acdw b/c it's a huge reason I don't use python tbh
2020-06-08 16:27:27 companion_cube same
2020-06-08 16:27:36 companion_cube or that I try to not use software written in python
2020-06-08 16:28:29 @tomasino yes, that exactly
2020-06-08 16:28:59 xj9 packaging support is bad for you (imo)
2020-06-08 16:29:02 companion_cube whereas, even though I despise Go's design, I like a lot of programs written in Go, and they don't break
2020-06-08 16:30:03 acdw xj9 I admit I don't really know what I'm talking about; I'm probably using the wrong language.
2020-06-08 16:30:04 xj9 only the system package manager should be dealing with packages
2020-06-08 16:30:33 companion_cube that's a C centric view
2020-06-08 16:30:37 acdw But what I mean is -- I have no idea how to start a program in python. Especially if I think it's going to be medium-to-large and will require a couple of things others have written
2020-06-08 16:31:06 companion_cube xj9: my beef with that is that if you write a library, then you need to package it for hundreds of distros, macOS, windows, BSD, etc.
2020-06-08 16:31:08 companion_cube it's just too much
2020-06-08 16:31:09 @tomasino someone should write a python2appimage thing
2020-06-08 16:31:15 makeworld Yeah deps are kinda bad sometimes, but personally I've actually never had issues
2020-06-08 16:31:32 acdw If you have any resources to figuring it out I'd love to see them
2020-06-08 16:31:40 @tomasino i've had so many issues with python over the years
2020-06-08 16:31:41 xj9 tomasino: i'd like to do that for python programs and some node.js programs i have to use
2020-06-08 16:31:42 makeworld I've looked into the tools to manage dependencies though, and it seems that Poetry is the best one
2020-06-08 16:31:56 makeworld https://python-poetry.org/
2020-06-08 16:32:00 makeworld It's what GUS uses, in fact
2020-06-08 16:32:04 acdw thanks, makeworld! I've used poetry ... once? So I'm not used to it. But I'll try it out more :)
2020-06-08 16:32:05 companion_cube I remember that pelican was the straw that broke my back wrt python
2020-06-08 16:32:10 @tomasino give me a self contained thing that i can run, or let a package manager deal with it properly
2020-06-08 16:32:18 companion_cube clearly now, it's replaced by hugo/zola/…
2020-06-08 16:32:21 makeworld acdw: Welcome! It seems great
2020-06-08 16:32:29 ironzorg → Docker
2020-06-08 16:32:40 xj9 that's not self contained though
2020-06-08 16:32:47 xj9 you need to set up a daemon first
2020-06-08 16:32:59 makeworld One of the nice things about Go dep management is that it can download and manage multiple dependency versions recursively
2020-06-08 16:33:01 dkibi xj9: you will not be able to convince companion_cube, I tried ^^
2020-06-08 16:33:16 companion_cube convince me about what? system packages? it's terrible :D
2020-06-08 16:33:25 companion_cube I mean, it's good for applications, terrible for libraries
2020-06-08 16:33:26 xj9 we'll you're right
2020-06-08 16:33:30 makeworld Like I can install whatever version of whatever stuff I want and it will list all the dependencies and their hashes in two files
2020-06-08 16:33:43 xj9 package managers generally are terrible
2020-06-08 16:33:47 makeworld There's never a problem bc you just maintain mutliple versions
2020-06-08 16:34:10 makeworld xj9: There's an inherent problem, but lots of software does i pretty well
2020-06-08 16:34:50 makeworld Anyway I still love Python, the language makes it worth it for me I guess. Although I've been writing a lot of Go these days :)
2020-06-08 16:35:24 companion_cube I wish go wasn't that bad a language, its tooling is cool
2020-06-08 16:36:07 makeworld Haha what makes it bad to you? I like it so far
2020-06-08 16:36:33 companion_cube everything in the design, really: nil, no sum types, statement-based instead of expression-based…
2020-06-08 16:36:41 companion_cube (no generics, ofc)
2020-06-08 16:37:02 companion_cube the only nice thing it has is that it makes nice self contained binaries :D
2020-06-08 16:39:04 makeworld Huh, I don't think I know enough to really care about that stuff
2020-06-08 16:39:25 makeworld I learned Python first, and then Go. Some C, and Java when I'm forced too
2020-06-08 16:39:27 makeworld *to
2020-06-08 16:39:38 companion_cube right, different audiences, is all
2020-06-08 16:42:45 ~tiwesdaeg xq: have you pushed that gopher update already?
2020-06-08 16:43:00 xq yes, *at the moment* :D
2020-06-08 16:43:14 xq and: have you enabled gopher in the settings?
2020-06-08 16:43:27 @tomasino i can't reinstall jetforce from scratch. it hits too many problems with compatibility of other things
2020-06-08 16:43:35 @tomasino i'd need to figure out a virtual env or something
2020-06-08 16:43:44 @tomasino i'll leave it as is for now until i have time to deal with it
2020-06-08 16:44:26 xj9 i find python to be a nice language to teach with (assuming you avoid the package management issues)
2020-06-08 16:44:44 companion_cube as long as you don't try to write production code in it… ;)
2020-06-08 16:44:45 ~tiwesdaeg I sure did
2020-06-08 16:45:13 ~tiwesdaeg also, I found out that netbsd's native make compiles kristall just fine and with less warnings
2020-06-08 16:45:41 xj9 yes i prefer FORTH or scheme for production uses
2020-06-08 16:45:47 ~tiwesdaeg I really need to make a kristall.desktop
2020-06-08 16:45:58 xj9 OCaml when the situation calls for it
2020-06-08 16:46:09 companion_cube you laugh, but I use OCaml in production :D
2020-06-08 16:46:14 ~tiwesdaeg fortran or die
2020-06-08 16:46:27 xj9 i'm not laughing, i actually like ocaml 🙂
2020-06-08 16:46:28 companion_cube (and the packaging is also painful :()
2020-06-08 16:46:39 ~tiwesdaeg I actually learned fortran in school in the mid 90's
2020-06-08 16:46:43 xj9 packaging is painful.
2020-06-08 16:46:56 companion_cube rust has an ok story there, imho
2020-06-08 16:47:17 ~tiwesdaeg I always feel like I have to beat up rust programs to get them to compile
2020-06-08 16:47:18 xj9 i'm actually impressed with cargo, even if rust itself is too complex for my taste
2020-06-08 16:47:46 xj9 it was nice at first, but they kept adding things and i got tired of it
2020-06-08 16:48:57 companion_cube what did they add, really?
2020-06-08 16:49:08 companion_cube I can only see async/await support as a major post 1.0 feature
2020-06-08 16:49:43 xj9 i don't remember, this was like four or five years ago
2020-06-08 16:50:00 companion_cube hu, so around 1.0 then?
2020-06-08 16:50:26 xj9 yeah 2015 rust doesn't compile anymore
2020-06-08 16:50:39 companion_cube it should if you have `edition="2015"`
2020-06-08 16:50:50 xj9 things i don't care to learn
2020-06-08 16:51:28 companion_cube afaik code from 2015, post 1.0, should still compile
2020-06-08 16:51:38 xq hmm... plan for train home: implement a lot of UX smaller features
2020-06-08 16:51:41 xq then, implement finger
2020-06-08 16:51:43 xq then, be awesome :D
2020-06-08 16:51:47 xj9 nice
2020-06-08 16:51:47 companion_cube (except if it was relying on bugs of the borrow checker)
2020-06-08 16:52:20 xj9 the project was a coreutils implementation in rust, nothing really complex
2020-06-08 16:52:54 xj9 i abandoned it, but my friend had to fix a bunch of stuff to get it workong on modern rust
2020-06-08 16:53:02 companion_cube url? :D
2020-06-08 16:53:18 xj9 let me see if i can find it
2020-06-08 16:54:49 xj9 can't find my friends fork, but here's the repo i have https://git.sunshinegardens.org/~xj9/rust-coreutils
2020-06-08 16:55:31 xj9 the git log says my memory betrayed me
2020-06-08 17:00:45 companion_cube builds for me, indeed
2020-06-08 17:16:56 @julienxx tiwesdaeg: were you able to run aerc on OpenBSD? It compiles but the wizard fails for me
2020-06-08 17:17:29 ~tiwesdaeg I haven't had a chance to on openbsd
2020-06-08 17:17:39 ~tiwesdaeg On netbsd the wizard failed once
2020-06-08 17:18:02 ~tiwesdaeg Then worked, but I could never get it to actually receive mail
2020-06-08 17:47:37 ▬▬▶ lukee has joined #gemini
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2020-06-08 17:51:54 ~tiwesdaeg attack of the lukees
2020-06-08 17:52:38 makeworld tomasino: Did you get it to work? Seems like t tilde.black is still down
2020-06-08 18:12:29 lukee_ my client seems to show two entries for this channel - I can try to remove one
2020-06-08 18:13:17 @tomasino It's down?
2020-06-08 18:13:19 xq is int80h active in IRC?
2020-06-08 18:13:25 @tomasino That's not good
2020-06-08 18:13:29 lukee_ has left #gemini
2020-06-08 18:13:31 @tomasino It shouldn't be down
2020-06-08 18:13:39 @tomasino I won't be able to look at it tonight
2020-06-08 18:16:26 makeworld Yep it's down I'm afraid
2020-06-08 18:32:51 @julienxx Down since a few hours for me
2020-06-08 18:34:46 @julienxx Haha looks like my server is down too
2020-06-08 18:35:15 acdw somebody hacked all of geminispace
2020-06-08 18:35:25 acdw must be that elite hacker 4chan
2020-06-08 18:35:35 xq oh no
2020-06-08 18:35:36 xq 4chan!
2020-06-08 18:35:38 xq *screams*
2020-06-08 18:35:39 tadzik quick, call the president of anarchists!
2020-06-08 18:36:47 makeworld Where' s the antifa CEO when you need them
2020-06-08 18:37:07 dkibi lukee: iirc you asked me the other day if I wanted to add navigation to the labyrinth thing?
2020-06-08 18:37:13 tadzik I heard you can reach them here: https://antifaheadoffice.tumblr.com/
2020-06-08 18:37:29 makeworld They're on antifa.org actually
2020-06-08 18:38:03 tadzik that's a good one
2020-06-08 18:38:14 dkibi probably will not, this for me is really just a non-trival script to see how to do a cgi script (with some input). It's completely stateless i.e. it would regenerate the labyrinth on every step
2020-06-08 18:38:25 dkibi that said I certainly want to do mor such experiments
2020-06-08 18:39:06 ~tiwesdaeg xq: kristall compiles on manjaro, but, you know, it's just pretty arch
2020-06-08 18:39:11 xq :D
2020-06-08 18:39:13 xq yeah
2020-06-08 18:39:32 ~tiwesdaeg needed only qt5-multimedia
2020-06-08 18:39:39 xq i'll take notes
2020-06-08 18:39:42 ~tiwesdaeg every other package was installed already
2020-06-08 18:39:56 tadzik you good people mention all these cool projects but I can't find them on gus.guru :(
2020-06-08 18:40:11 ~tiwesdaeg this is a fairly new install, so I don't think I added qt5
2020-06-08 18:40:19 ~tiwesdaeg it's the xfce version
2020-06-08 18:40:20 xq tadzik: i think my website isn't there yet
2020-06-08 18:40:28 ~tiwesdaeg tadzik: mailing list
2020-06-08 18:40:29 makeworld Just submit it
2020-06-08 18:40:35 acdw oh xq: I was able to compile kristall on Void, but I had to specify QT_SELECT=5
2020-06-08 18:40:54 ~tiwesdaeg acdw: was that with qmake?
2020-06-08 18:40:56 makeworld xq: You can add your site to GUS through an input on the site
2020-06-08 18:41:07 acdw yes. Though I ran it through `make QT_SELECT=5`
2020-06-08 18:41:13 acdw in the repo folder
2020-06-08 18:41:28 tadzik tiwesdaeg: yeah, I'm there now :) But it'd still be useful to be able to look stuff up when it comes up
2020-06-08 18:41:49 tadzik I can of course find it with duckduckgo or something, but the more dogfooding the better I think:)
2020-06-08 18:42:00 xq acdw: thanks for the info! build hints++
2020-06-08 18:42:18 ~tiwesdaeg a lot of it isn't available through web searches
2020-06-08 18:42:50 xq new feature:
2020-06-08 18:42:51 xq https://mq32.de/public/b7abc3773123177942386dea9a8326e5ef6adca4.png
2020-06-08 18:43:03 xq https://mq32.de/public/ce3b9e3a99ef616cd9f5c42ef3023645db4e3daf.png
2020-06-08 18:43:05 xq finger is now supported
2020-06-08 18:43:19 tadzik nice :)
2020-06-08 18:43:32 xq 5 packets transmitted, 0 received, 100% packet loss, time 4091ms
2020-06-08 18:43:33 xq LOL
2020-06-08 18:43:37 xq #justMobileThings
2020-06-08 18:44:45 acdw xq: :)
2020-06-08 18:45:14 acdw also xq: where did you find documentation on finger? I'd like to do the same for bollux, hop on that train
2020-06-08 18:45:25 xq https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1288
2020-06-08 18:45:32 xq RFC all the things!
2020-06-08 18:45:50 xq also, client side finger is pretty much just … "send username or nothing, then CR LF, then wait for response"
2020-06-08 18:47:20 acdw :D
2020-06-08 18:47:25 xq i wonder if i should implement favicon support… there were some discussions on the ML about favicon.txt and favicon.ico
2020-06-08 18:48:10 acdw i've been wondering the same. since it's an emoji ... but also it's an extra network request, which is now verboten
2020-06-08 18:48:19 acdw maybe a configurable, default false?
2020-06-08 18:48:27 xq yep, that's the plan
2020-06-08 18:48:36 xq ask once a day when you visit the site first
2020-06-08 18:48:38 acdw also your finger interface looks great
2020-06-08 18:48:46 xq no, it doesn't ! :D
2020-06-08 18:48:50 xq has to be fixed-size :D
2020-06-08 18:48:54 lukee dkibi: no problem, I just thought it would be an interesting thought experiment to see if it could be done
2020-06-08 18:48:56 acdw haha *I* like it :D
2020-06-08 18:49:10 acdw oh right, that could maybe help
2020-06-08 18:49:53 xq and thanks :)
2020-06-08 18:51:02 xq fixed
2020-06-08 18:51:14 lukee you could have something like endpoint?seed=ABC&x=10&y=20&nextx=11&nexty=20
2020-06-08 18:51:59 lukee it would show a blob on the maze where you were and you would have to move the blob through the maze without hitting the wall
2020-06-08 18:52:21 lukee still a bit pointless activity - why would anyone do this? :-)
2020-06-08 18:52:41 xq now if i implement FTP support… i have all the procotols i know or ever heard of :D
2020-06-08 18:53:46 lukee about the favicon.txt and .ico - I think these are nice optional ideas, however it would be better if it is site specific not just for the whole domain
2020-06-08 18:54:21 lukee there might be a number of users on the same domain - should they all have the same favicon?
2020-06-08 18:55:08 dkibi I would like to do some ascii art dungeon crawler type thing
2020-06-08 18:55:11 lukee perhaps one approach is to look for favicon in all parent folders up to the top of the path
2020-06-08 18:55:11 dkibi if time allows
2020-06-08 18:56:02 lukee @dkibi - it would be a neat demonstration of what is possible in gemini
2020-06-08 18:56:59 lukee still it would be rather slow to move link by link through the space
2020-06-08 18:58:40 acdw a text-based adventure would be better, I think -- like a choose-your-own adventure or an interactive fiction
2020-06-08 18:58:44 dkibi yeah I think i lot's of exploration is involved, it wouldn't work.
2020-06-08 18:58:57 dkibi yeah I also thought about that ^^
2020-06-08 18:59:03 lukee that would work - a classic application of hypertext
2020-06-08 18:59:26 dkibi In school I wasted way too much time in those browser games
2020-06-08 19:00:09 lukee I remember getting hooked on the book versions of those
2020-06-08 19:00:23 acdw oh they're great!
2020-06-08 19:00:24 lukee turn to page 83 if you attack the troll
2020-06-08 19:00:26 dkibi that would run in the background and have long move times and everything is presented on static pages. I think such a thing could also work well with gemini
2020-06-08 19:01:09 dkibi there is this scripting language called ink from the inkle people: https://www.inklestudios.com/ink/
2020-06-08 19:01:23 acdw For just a choose-your-own adventure, you wouldn't even need a special server, just a lot of pages
2020-06-08 19:01:31 acdw I'll try to port mine over today
2020-06-08 19:01:36 acdw for a proof-of-concept
2020-06-08 19:01:39 dkibi I wonder if one could take only the core components and build a tiny layer above text/gemini that compiles to a couple of pages
2020-06-08 19:02:11 lukee it depends if you need to hold any player state - for example their life credits
2020-06-08 19:02:12 acdw the one I wrote I did by hand --- the hardest part is keeping the nodes straight.
2020-06-08 19:02:25 acdw oh yes well state does make things more complex!
2020-06-08 19:02:36 lukee there is always the URL query
2020-06-08 19:02:40 acdw that'd need a server -- unless it was part of the query. lol
2020-06-08 19:02:46 acdw jinx
2020-06-08 19:03:06 acdw oh but it'd still need to be server-side
2020-06-08 19:03:58 lukee if it was just choices, you could compile it to a static site
2020-06-08 19:04:53 acdw yep! That's easiest
2020-06-08 19:10:21 lukee inkle looks interesting. Might be quite a bit of work to build a gemini front end on top of it
2020-06-08 19:12:01 dkibi it's very nice, the biggest problem is that the tooling is quite restricted, there is the C# implementation (mostly for unity) and a javascript one
2020-06-08 19:12:12 lukee For a simpley hypertext I think you just need a simple graph editor and then export in a standard format and then generate the gmi files from that
2020-06-08 19:12:53 lukee you could always run javascript on the server - might work
2020-06-08 19:13:12 lukee it might be the first node.js gemini server?
2020-06-08 19:15:03 acdw lololoo
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2020-06-08 19:15:22 companion_cube s/node.js/deno/, keep up with the modern times!
2020-06-08 19:15:54 lukee apparently it does run on node.js
2020-06-08 19:15:55 lukee https://github.com/y-lohse/inkjs
2020-06-08 19:16:21 lukee tweak the back end a bit and emit gemini not html
2020-06-08 19:18:22 dkibi I think the js api just gives you strings anyway
2020-06-08 19:18:50 lukee yeah maybe its a lot of work
2020-06-08 19:19:13 lukee there might be simpler engines out there that just emit html that could be more easily adapted
2020-06-08 19:20:14 dkibi there is also twine, but I think that's strongly oriented towards having clickable words
2020-06-08 19:20:26 @julienxx I have two CYOA games on Gemini gemini://typed-hole.org/cyoa/underground and gemini://typed-hole.org/cyoa2/pyramid.gemini
2020-06-08 19:21:35 lukee surely you can just use twine in a way that has a seperate line for the links?
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2020-06-08 19:22:25 lukee I'm just guessing - never tried it
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2020-06-08 19:28:29 lukee I found this with a little googling
2020-06-08 19:28:30 lukee https://itsfoss.com/create-interactive-fiction/
2020-06-08 19:28:34 lukee mentions a few engines
2020-06-08 19:29:00 lukee There is Quest which has a mode that you have the text then the choices at the bottom
2020-06-08 19:29:09 lukee that might map to gemini quite nicely
2020-06-08 19:29:28 lukee you can export as XML, so you could parse that and generate a gemini site. Maybe
2020-06-08 19:30:31 lukee Seems you could generate a site similar to that on julienxx's site
2020-06-08 19:36:49 dkibi julienxx: that ascii art map of france is gorgous
2020-06-08 19:45:53 ~tiwesdaeg xq: where are the kristall config files at?
2020-06-08 19:46:17 ~tiwesdaeg nevermind, found it
2020-06-08 19:47:56 xq should follow XDG on *nix
2020-06-08 19:48:04 xq but i trust Qt to do that right actually :D
2020-06-08 19:50:27 ~tiwesdaeg it's you calling it ~/.config/xqTechnologies that is throwing me off
2020-06-08 19:50:39 ~tiwesdaeg I keep looking for ~/.config/kristall
2020-06-08 19:51:01 ~tiwesdaeg I made a .desktop file for it
2020-06-08 19:51:18 ~tiwesdaeg I took your svg of the gem and converted it to png
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2020-06-08 19:59:09 xq yeah, Qt requires a company name :D
2020-06-08 19:59:19 xq ah, so it's you who did the PR?
2020-06-08 19:59:29 xq is it ready to use?
2020-06-08 20:03:35 xq i think it was styan who told me that my server doesn't do good TLS?
2020-06-08 20:03:46 xq i now know how to fix that :)
2020-06-08 20:23:04 lukee New spec has quotation marks
2020-06-08 20:23:21 lukee like in emails etc line begins >
2020-06-08 20:23:31 lukee I have an implementation of that
2020-06-08 20:23:33 lukee https://imgur.com/a/AB4ziDV
2020-06-08 20:23:50 lukee in GemiNaut
2020-06-08 20:23:53 lukee for next build
2020-06-08 20:25:29 xq good call!
2020-06-08 20:29:44 xq thanks tiwesdaeg for the desktop file! :)
2020-06-08 20:30:06 ~tiwesdaeg Did you want a copy?
2020-06-08 20:30:18 lukee maybe acdw will recognise the screenshot ;-)
2020-06-08 20:31:05 xq oh
2020-06-08 20:31:10 xq so the GitHub PR wasn't you? :D
2020-06-08 20:31:19 xq there was a PR with a desktop file *grin*
2020-06-08 20:31:55 xq i can now click finger/gopher/gemini links and they open with kristall
2020-06-08 20:31:58 xq which is nice
2020-06-08 20:32:33 lukee thats a nice feature - involves some low level registry tweaking in windows
2020-06-08 20:33:54 xq yeah, it's only working on linux atm
2020-06-08 20:33:56 ~tiwesdaeg Nope, I have to try really hard to make pull requests
2020-06-08 20:34:11 xq :D
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2020-06-08 20:41:23 acdw lukee: :O :D awesome shot!
2020-06-08 20:41:25 tastytea xq: The PR was from me. :-)
2020-06-08 20:41:47 xq well. could've guessed/searched for the name here m(
2020-06-08 20:41:48 xq thanks!
2020-06-08 20:43:00 acdw does that desktop file work for firefox out of the box, or do I have to do something?
2020-06-08 20:43:03 acdw I think I have to do something
2020-06-08 20:44:08 acdw also xq: I am so jealous of your amazing TOC generation and navigation pane.
2020-06-08 20:44:20 acdw I think if I wanted to do that in bollux I'd have to write my own pager in bash
2020-06-08 20:44:33 xq *blushes*
2020-06-08 20:45:04 xq i linked the desktop file to ~/.local/share/applications/kristall.desktop
2020-06-08 20:45:40 tastytea acdw: The desktop file should work out of the box, if it is in one of the right directories.
2020-06-08 20:46:32 acdw okay cool!
2020-06-08 20:46:51 xq lukee: https://mq32.de/public/a96332d9dfba1b107a69354bafa410c6b1b12b3d.png
2020-06-08 20:47:01 lukee acdw: seeing as you wrote a post about the new spec feature, you did the work of making a test case for us all
2020-06-08 20:47:02 xq i now have ultra-ugly block quotes :D
2020-06-08 20:47:31 acdw hahaha -- though really mozz did a better job
2020-06-08 20:47:51 acdw b/c they actually talked about the spec: gemini://mozz.us/journal/2020-06-08.gmi
2020-06-08 20:48:56 lukee xq: eek - i hope users can change that colour :)
2020-06-08 20:49:12 xq nope, not atm :D
2020-06-08 20:49:14 acdw no way it's perfect :P
2020-06-08 20:49:20 xq just needed a color to test ^^
2020-06-08 20:50:47 lukee my first version had bright yellow for testing ;)
2020-06-08 20:51:10 lukee here is the rendering of the mozz.us page
2020-06-08 20:51:11 lukee https://imgur.com/a/OBbg6RK
2020-06-08 20:58:42 xq perfection, i created the CIA block quote mode: https://mq32.de/public/2d2c37233304d097be7b5c53332b9ddf5950d48c.png
2020-06-08 20:59:00 lukee ha ha
2020-06-08 21:00:23 xq styling seems to work though
2020-06-08 21:00:28 xq new default color: "black"
2020-06-08 21:00:34 xq tilde.black approves
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2020-06-08 21:44:51 @tomasino tilde.black is back online
2020-06-08 21:45:08 @tomasino i dunno what's up with tab boys, but i'll just keep the server truckin' along for now
2020-06-08 21:46:44 styan xq: I was wrong about why libtls did not like your site. I need to add `-T ciphers=legacy' not `-T protocols=legacy' to nc(1) to be able to connect to it. I guess that shows you how much I know about TLS. :-)
2020-06-08 21:47:43 xq haha, same here :D
2020-06-08 21:47:56 xq i will patch up a newer OpenSSL version
2020-06-08 21:48:02 xq which supports the correct funtions
2020-06-08 21:48:27 styan It might(?) be the key type?
2020-06-08 21:50:02 styan tomasino: I get tabs from both tilde.black and cosmic.voyage, so I guess it is just Jetforce.
2020-06-08 21:50:21 xq nah, it's just that i don't enforce TLS 1.2…
2020-06-08 21:50:52 styan makeworld: I also get a tab from your site :-)
2020-06-08 21:51:37 styan xq: I meant that I was wrong about it being the TLS version, it was actually the cipher version.
2020-06-08 21:51:45 @tomasino Oh good
2020-06-08 21:51:55 xq ah, well
2020-06-08 21:54:47 kensanata has quit (The TLS connection was non-properly terminated.)
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2020-06-08 22:01:23 styan xq: Okay, I think I have it. `TLS_CIPHERS_DEFAULT' is "TLSv1.3:TLSv1.2+AEAD+ECDHE:TLSv1.2+AEAD+DHE", and your server is using "AES256-GCM-SHA384", which is apparently covered by `TLS_CIPHERS_COMPAT' which is "HIGH:!aNULL". What all of the extra letters mean, I do not know, but `compat' seems better than `legacy' :-)
2020-06-08 22:02:07 xq ^^
2020-06-08 22:02:09 xq yeah, true
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2020-06-08 22:33:36 xq tastytea: can you verify that the latest master does not have broken navigation anymore?
2020-06-08 22:35:48 tastytea xq: Yep, looks good now.
2020-06-08 22:35:58 xq neat!
2020-06-08 22:36:29 xq Version 0.2 is a huge update :D
2020-06-08 22:36:34 ⚡ xq has just taken a look at the release notes
2020-06-08 22:57:29 tastytea xq: Can you make the prefix configurable in the build recipe? I'd like to install into /usr/ instead of /opt/kristall/.
2020-06-08 22:57:43 xq it should be already
2020-06-08 22:57:57 xq qmake should provide this, i call a friendly RTFM
2020-06-08 22:58:14 xq not because i don't want to help, but because it'#s 1:00 am and i really should get some sleep zzz
2020-06-08 22:59:35 xq have added a lot of new features today and improved pretty much everything
2020-06-08 22:59:42 xq also "f1" is a thing now :D
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2020-06-08 23:56:52 tastytea The manual is not very detailed, unfortunately. I couldn't find out how to change target.path but sed works well enough. :-)
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2020-06-09 08:07:06 xq tastytea: yea, i'm not really happy with qmake as well, but cmake is even worse
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2020-06-09 09:02:49 epoch I figure message/gemini would be an appropriate mime-type for a gemini response that includes the response header?
2020-06-09 09:03:05 epoch (if not, I'm using it anyway for my own playing)
2020-06-09 09:04:59 epoch I'm thinking my 2-script client should actually get split into 3.
2020-06-09 09:06:11 epoch one does the request and launches off the message/gemini handler on the response, which the launches the handler for content of the response (or goes back to the requester if type 10 or 30 or whatever)
2020-06-09 09:08:32 xq epoch, what do you want to do?
2020-06-09 09:10:48 epoch store cached whole responses and have a type-label for them that keeps me from attempting to open them as the type of the response body
2020-06-09 09:11:13 epoch I'm thinking I might just not store the header
2020-06-09 09:11:22 epoch or put the header into the filename
2020-06-09 09:11:29 epoch not sure yet.
2020-06-09 09:12:17 epoch in the filename seems like the wrong spot.
2020-06-09 09:14:31 xq why not store the full response?
2020-06-09 09:14:42 xq first line is mime type, the rest is the file itself
2020-06-09 09:15:45 epoch that's what I'm doing right now.
2020-06-09 09:16:03 epoch but I also want to be able to pass only the response body to another program
2020-06-09 09:16:08 epoch so I'll have to make two copies?
2020-06-09 09:16:16 epoch which I guess makes sense.
2020-06-09 09:16:30 epoch one is "gemini cache" and the other is "downloaded files"
2020-06-09 09:17:53 epoch I have a mime-type script that uses extended file attributes for seeing what the user-defined mime-type override is.
2020-06-09 09:18:22 epoch so, I'll probably have the message/gemini handler set that extended file attribute in the downloaded file.
2020-06-09 09:19:10 xq epoch: "head -n-1" ? :D
2020-06-09 09:19:50 epoch yeah, that's how I'd extract it from the message/gemini file
2020-06-09 09:20:02 xq ^^
2020-06-09 09:20:11 epoch but I'd still want the raw file contents in its own file and have the type associated with that file.
2020-06-09 09:20:28 epoch I'm wanting to be able to apply these types of scripts to more than just gemini though
2020-06-09 09:20:51 xq hm
2020-06-09 09:21:03 xq then i think it's needed to have the files duplicated
2020-06-09 09:21:11 xq or you can create another database
2020-06-09 09:21:17 xq which uses one line per file with the mime type
2020-06-09 09:21:19 xq like
2020-06-09 09:21:32 xq and origin url
2020-06-09 09:25:07 epoch I have a uriescaped origin URL used as the name of the cached message/gemini files
2020-06-09 09:26:13 epoch which makes it easier to cache any type of response, but the type of the response also needs to be stored with the cache file somewhere.
2020-06-09 09:26:19 epoch right now I'm just using subdirs
2020-06-09 09:28:48 epoch looks like xdg has "origin url" stored in files
2020-06-09 09:29:09 epoch just ran getfattr -d * in my home dir
2020-06-09 09:29:17 epoch (debian package attr)
2020-06-09 09:30:18 epoch that's probably something firefox does?
2020-06-09 09:41:11 epoch hrm. my http server is saying "this is text/plain" but firefox insists it is a jpeg.
2020-06-09 09:41:26 ⚡ epoch looks for the mime-sniffing toggle
2020-06-09 09:43:23 ⚡ epoch adds X-Content-Type-Options: nosniff to HTTP server...
2020-06-09 09:43:29 epoch and I'm offtopic it seems.
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2020-06-09 12:50:34 ~tiwesdaeg xq: text files over gopher protocol are not following the theme right
2020-06-09 12:51:08 ~tiwesdaeg the background is the correct color, but the text doesn't use the default color
2020-06-09 12:51:50 ~tiwesdaeg I am using a dark theme and I get dark grey for the font color of a txt file with the gopher protocol
2020-06-09 12:52:36 ~tiwesdaeg actually, I just tested gemini and it is doing the same with
2020-06-09 12:53:19 ~tiwesdaeg I'm also showing the same for .md files
2020-06-09 12:54:25 jba has quit (Client exited)
2020-06-09 13:10:10 julienxx_ I'm not a native english speaker, how do you pronounce it? jeh·muh·nai or jeh-me-nee?
2020-06-09 13:10:29 bard the first one
2020-06-09 13:10:58 julienxx_ I use the latter in my head
2020-06-09 13:12:02 xq has quit (Ping timeout: 120 seconds)
2020-06-09 13:21:06 ~tiwesdaeg how did the greeks pronounce it?
2020-06-09 13:24:28 ℹ julienxx_ is now known as julienxx
2020-06-09 13:24:28 ℹ Mode #gemini [+o julienxx] by ChanServ
2020-06-09 13:24:45 @tomasino ˈdʒɛm əˌnaɪ
2020-06-09 13:24:57 @tomasino aka, the first option
2020-06-09 13:30:01 @julienxx I had doubt, from http://www.collectspace.com/ubb/Forum29/HTML/000566.html "From memory, most transmissions to and from the Gemini capsules used the "Gemin-ee" pronunciation, perhaps because it was quicker to say "Gemin-ee 4, get back in!" than "Gemin-eye 4, get back in!""
2020-06-09 13:37:10 ~tiwesdaeg I've never heard it spoken gemin-ee
2020-06-09 13:37:23 ~tiwesdaeg it's just one of those words
2020-06-09 13:38:15 ~tiwesdaeg I mean, english is full of words with different pronunciations based on regional dialects
2020-06-09 13:39:04 wgreenhouse classical Latin would prob be closest to geh-me-nee but we love to mispronounce our Latin words in English
2020-06-09 13:45:12 @tomasino pronouncing it like latin would be quite silly for a greek word, but yeah... english is great at butchering stuff
2020-06-09 14:31:27 ▬▬▶ wingy has joined #gemini
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2020-06-09 15:03:56 ⚡ tiwesdaeg pokes xq
2020-06-09 15:04:15 xq whooo \o/
2020-06-09 15:04:18 xq my server is back and online
2020-06-09 15:04:25 xq and another VPS ordered, fuck Strato
2020-06-09 15:04:33 ~tiwesdaeg do you have the chatlogs?
2020-06-09 15:04:38 xq sadly, not
2020-06-09 15:04:49 ~tiwesdaeg I found another issue with kristall
2020-06-09 15:04:55 xq oh, what is it?
2020-06-09 15:05:06 ~tiwesdaeg .txt and.md and I am guessing anything that is simple text
2020-06-09 15:05:17 ~tiwesdaeg the font color is not following the theme
2020-06-09 15:05:25 xq oh, thanks :)
2020-06-09 15:05:43 ~tiwesdaeg I'm using a dark background and I get dark grey text
2020-06-09 15:05:49 xq i wanted to do improved markdown support anyways
2020-06-09 15:05:59 ~tiwesdaeg markdown redndering would be cool
2020-06-09 15:06:04 xq right now i'm using the Qt builtin one and i'm not really happy with that
2020-06-09 15:06:11 xq way too less control
2020-06-09 15:06:22 xq and it's html-based which is stupid for Kristall, which uses rich text documents
2020-06-09 15:06:28 ~tiwesdaeg is it supposed to render markdown right now?
2020-06-09 15:06:37 xq yeah
2020-06-09 15:06:42 ~tiwesdaeg I'm on my openbsd system here at work and it was not
2020-06-09 15:06:45 xq but it depends if your qt supports markdown or not
2020-06-09 15:06:54 xq and i want ot have reliable MD rendering
2020-06-09 15:07:11 ~tiwesdaeg ahhh
2020-06-09 15:08:12 ~tiwesdaeg will it compile without support if it doesn't find that specific dependency ?
2020-06-09 15:08:27 ~tiwesdaeg I should see if there is a separate package
2020-06-09 15:11:04 xq yes it does!
2020-06-09 15:11:14 xq i made sure that it doesn't break when not having markdown
2020-06-09 15:11:20 xq will do the same for the multimedia packages
2020-06-09 15:11:32 xq because i know that some people don't want those features included
2020-06-09 15:11:55 ~tiwesdaeg I did have that package
2020-06-09 15:12:34 xq so you can watch videos and listen to mp3 in kristall! :)
2020-06-09 15:14:57 ~tiwesdaeg I have no sound on here!
2020-06-09 15:19:14 ~tiwesdaeg I'm not even sure where markdown support is coming from
2020-06-09 15:19:37 ~tiwesdaeg everything I search turns up qt based markdown viewers/editors
2020-06-09 15:22:52 xq i think it's the qt version…
2020-06-09 15:22:53 xq not sure
2020-06-09 15:23:21 xq and as said: i want to improve markdown supports anyways
2020-06-09 15:25:26 ~tiwesdaeg write your own renderer?
2020-06-09 15:27:45 xq use another library
2020-06-09 15:27:56 xq Qt as a QTextDocument which i use for rendering all the text
2020-06-09 15:28:06 xq but parsing the markdown is somehow intransparent
2020-06-09 15:28:10 xq and how styles apply even more
2020-06-09 15:57:43 ~tiwesdaeg ugh, work is taking up all of my gemini time today
2020-06-09 16:02:39 xq noooo
2020-06-09 16:25:19 xq hm, i think i'll take the CMark library
2020-06-09 16:25:33 xq which is the reference implementation for CommonMark
2020-06-09 16:48:48 wangofett CommonMark FTW
2020-06-09 17:03:56 ~tiwesdaeg yeah, I like commonmark
2020-06-09 17:11:38 @tomasino AristocratScrawl FTW
2020-06-09 17:24:25 xq sadly, commonmark is quite insane
2020-06-09 17:24:46 xq but it's the "smallest common denominator"
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2020-06-09 18:57:48 solderpunk Howdy, Geminauts!
2020-06-09 18:58:11 xj9 o/
2020-06-09 18:58:50 @tomasino hey solderpunk
2020-06-09 18:58:55 @tomasino i was just gonna ping you
2020-06-09 18:59:09 @tomasino I'm prepping notes to do a "What is Gemini" video tonight
2020-06-09 18:59:19 solderpunk Oh, wow, fantastic!
2020-06-09 18:59:25 @tomasino wanted to run the topics by you and see if you think I should add anything
2020-06-09 18:59:26 @tomasino gemini://tilde.black/users/fox/journal/20200609-what-is-gemini.gmi
2020-06-09 18:59:37 solderpunk So glad that *other people* are doing that kind of stuff for me :p
2020-06-09 19:01:18 solderpunk What's your target audience?
2020-06-09 19:01:48 @tomasino moderately technical people
2020-06-09 19:02:14 @tomasino i share on toobnix/peertube, but i'll also post on my youtube channel. I don't have mayn followers there, though
2020-06-09 19:02:43 cmccabe holy moly it's solderpunk
2020-06-09 19:02:45 solderpunk So the "What makes it different?" section is aimed mostly at people whose default is the web?
2020-06-09 19:02:50 solderpunk Holy moly, it's cmccabe!
2020-06-09 19:03:10 @tomasino yep!
2020-06-09 19:03:18 solderpunk I'm, uhh, definitely not goofing around on IRC instead of completing your pubnix admin interview...
2020-06-09 19:03:33 @tomasino but the "sane markup" is aimed at gopher people too
2020-06-09 19:03:36 cmccabe heh. i'm also not goofing around on irc instead of working
2020-06-09 19:03:38 solderpunk Fair enough.
2020-06-09 19:03:46 @tomasino oooh, you get interviewed
2020-06-09 19:03:49 ⚡ tomasino pouts
2020-06-09 19:03:58 solderpunk Maybe emphasise DIYability, then?
2020-06-09 19:03:59 cmccabe you're next, tomasino.
2020-06-09 19:04:03 @tomasino :D!!!
2020-06-09 19:04:11 @tomasino DIY, yes yes
2020-06-09 19:04:29 solderpunk Don't tell him that, now I can't make him beg me to use him as my answer to the last question (which is "who should I interview next?").
2020-06-09 19:04:43 @tomasino me me me!
2020-06-09 19:05:29 solderpunk I really should invest the time to come up with a really good, compact set of "propaganda points" for stuff like this.
2020-06-09 19:05:51 @tomasino well, i'll give you 30min of material soon to draw from
2020-06-09 19:06:24 solderpunk Awesome.
2020-06-09 19:06:41 @tomasino oh, my TLS coverage is gonna be.... basic
2020-06-09 19:06:52 @tomasino that's the part of all this i don't really get beyond the basics
2020-06-09 19:07:21 solderpunk Ah, so it's no good me asking you for an off-the-cuff opinion on the client certificate thing?
2020-06-09 19:07:30 @tomasino hehe
2020-06-09 19:07:46 @tomasino you'll notice how i've been wonderfully silent on all the crypto talk?
2020-06-09 19:08:05 @tomasino i'll put it this way...
2020-06-09 19:08:16 @tomasino i only understand tor's routing system from a high level
2020-06-09 19:08:24 @tomasino if i need to "do" anything to make that work i wouldn't
2020-06-09 19:08:39 @tomasino but since there's a button i can press to trigger a new identity, i use it when moving from site to site
2020-06-09 19:08:58 @tomasino if client certs get to a point where their purpose is transparent to me as a user, i'll use it
2020-06-09 19:09:11 @tomasino but i have no idea how to "do" anything related to those
2020-06-09 19:09:42 solderpunk Fair enough.
2020-06-09 19:10:26 @tomasino in other news, you totally blindsided me with the > addition
2020-06-09 19:10:34 xq hey solderpunk
2020-06-09 19:10:36 solderpunk Oh?
2020-06-09 19:10:40 solderpunk Hey xq
2020-06-09 19:10:48 @tomasino yeah, i thought you had been a hard no on quotes back in the earlier conversation
2020-06-09 19:11:09 @tomasino i'm already using it now: gemini://tilde.black/users/fox/journal/20200602-re-replies.gmi
2020-06-09 19:11:30 solderpunk I was a hard no on how they were originally proposed, which was infinitely nestable.
2020-06-09 19:11:39 @tomasino gotcha
2020-06-09 19:11:45 @tomasino well this is nice and simple
2020-06-09 19:12:01 solderpunk I mean, I still don't think it's a super important thing to have, but multiple people were asking for it and it does no harm.
2020-06-09 19:12:02 @tomasino i really like how you rendered it in av98
2020-06-09 19:12:23 @tomasino true true. Before i had the > i just had teh block wrapped in quotes
2020-06-09 19:12:41 solderpunk I'm pretty bad at saying "no", really, which is a terrible trait for a BDFN to have :p
2020-06-09 19:13:06 @tomasino you're doing great
2020-06-09 19:13:14 @tomasino no complaints here
2020-06-09 19:13:15 solderpunk I am so ready to just have the thing be finished, though!
2020-06-09 19:13:16 xq solderpunk: you make a pretty good impression as BDFN to me
2020-06-09 19:13:24 solderpunk So we can just get on with building cool stuff.
2020-06-09 19:13:40 @tomasino building cool stuff, like an RSS reader for CAPCOM
2020-06-09 19:13:42 @tomasino ;)
2020-06-09 19:13:42 xq the next release cycle of Kristall is going to focus on client certificates
2020-06-09 19:14:16 solderpunk That will probably be super easy, actually, CAPCOM just uses the Universal Feed Parser which handles Atom and RSS.
2020-06-09 19:14:30 solderpunk xq, how are you feeling about that task?
2020-06-09 19:14:30 @tomasino oh nice
2020-06-09 19:14:43 xq solderpunk: still thinking about how to do it
2020-06-09 19:15:10 xq i'm still kinda waiting on your decisions, but i'm happy to discuss the topic
2020-06-09 19:15:24 ~tiwesdaeg solderpunk! did you ever get me email with the image?
2020-06-09 19:15:27 ⚡ tomasino gets out of the way while whispering "alt text...."
2020-06-09 19:15:35 xq plan right now is to be a bit off-spec ^^
2020-06-09 19:15:43 xq ```alt what?
2020-06-09 19:15:44 solderpunk Are you planning to add it because you feel like you at least vaguely understand what it's about and think it's cool, or are you just feeling an completionist obligation to do it?
2020-06-09 19:15:59 @tomasino xq++
2020-06-09 19:16:06 solderpunk Hahah, literally alt-text and simplifying (but probably not removing) client certs are literally wall I wan to do before freezing again.
2020-06-09 19:16:24 xq i think i deeply understand your idea and your ways of thinking
2020-06-09 19:16:34 solderpunk And I'm strongly leaning toward a bare-minimum response on the alt text thing and encouraing people to maybe form a convention which is like a separate little side-spec. I dunno
2020-06-09 19:16:35 xq it's just waaaay too elegant to not use client certs for authentication
2020-06-09 19:16:38 solderpunk tiwesdaeg, I did!
2020-06-09 19:16:44 solderpunk I have tried replying to you twice.
2020-06-09 19:16:47 solderpunk I keep getting bounces.
2020-06-09 19:16:49 ~tiwesdaeg hmmm
2020-06-09 19:16:51 solderpunk I was hoping to bump into you here.
2020-06-09 19:16:54 ~tiwesdaeg weird
2020-06-09 19:17:05 ~tiwesdaeg I'll go look at email logs
2020-06-09 19:17:13 solderpunk 451 4.4.1 reply: read error from tilde.pink.
2020-06-09 19:17:13 solderpunk <tiwesdaeg@tilde.pink>... Deferred: Connection reset by tilde.pink.
2020-06-09 19:17:13 solderpunk Warning: message still undelivered after 18 hours
2020-06-09 19:17:13 solderpunk Will keep trying until message is 5 days old
2020-06-09 19:17:25 solderpunk A greylisting problem?
2020-06-09 19:17:29 ~tiwesdaeg I normally have no issue receiving email
2020-06-09 19:17:39 ~tiwesdaeg I'm not filtering anything on tilde.pink
2020-06-09 19:17:47 solderpunk Hmm, that's weird, then.
2020-06-09 19:18:02 solderpunk Anyway, I really loved the images you provided! I appreciate the work you put into them.
2020-06-09 19:18:07 solderpunk I tooted one :p
2020-06-09 19:18:12 ~tiwesdaeg did you have any changes you wanted?
2020-06-09 19:18:17 solderpunk xq: glad you think so!
2020-06-09 19:18:46 ~tiwesdaeg it ended up being pretty easy to just redraw the gemini capsule
2020-06-09 19:18:48 solderpunk It would be nice if the capsule image were rounder, to better match the sun, but I wasn't able to find a nice clean image that I thought was usable.
2020-06-09 19:18:59 solderpunk At least the colours kind of match.
2020-06-09 19:19:11 ~tiwesdaeg one option would be to only use a portion of it
2020-06-09 19:19:18 xq solderpunk: i'm really sad that the web doesn't use them… but gemini has a fresh start and is able to make client certs the "next best thing" in authentication
2020-06-09 19:19:35 ~tiwesdaeg the other is to give it some sort of background/field
2020-06-09 19:19:46 @tomasino tor can use elliptic curve keys for auth now
2020-06-09 19:21:20 @tomasino i have no idea _how_ yet, but it's something i'm exploring for ~black
2020-06-09 19:21:24 solderpunk Hmm. Like an orange circle with a capsule centred in it?
2020-06-09 19:21:47 solderpunk xq: okay, great you are on board! How are you planning to go slightly off-spec?
2020-06-09 19:22:05 xq i think i'll go with your "planned" changes
2020-06-09 19:22:10 xq and just make a cert pool in the client
2020-06-09 19:22:30 xq each cert has a life span, and can be created persistent or "in-memory" for session work
2020-06-09 19:22:50 @ben woah solderpunk on irc!!
2020-06-09 19:22:56 @ben salutations!
2020-06-09 19:23:00 solderpunk So you think the rough plan I sketched out in an email recently is an improvement over the current spec?
2020-06-09 19:23:06 solderpunk Yes, it *does* happy!
2020-06-09 19:23:09 solderpunk Err, happen
2020-06-09 19:23:16 solderpunk Very rarely. :)
2020-06-09 19:23:21 solderpunk And salutations to you, too.
2020-06-09 19:23:25 ~tiwesdaeg hmmm, getting some weird dovecot error, but that shouldn't cause it to ignore you
2020-06-09 19:23:33 @tomasino tiwesdaeg: did you get my test email?
2020-06-09 19:23:41 @tomasino i sent you one when solderpunk first mentioned the issue
2020-06-09 19:23:59 xq solderpunk: yeah exactly. I'm trying to read all of those mails and have some highlights on stuff i need to read again
2020-06-09 19:24:00 solderpunk Good Guy Tomasino!
2020-06-09 19:24:12 xq i will only support one field in the cert (i think it's the Common Name field)
2020-06-09 19:24:23 @ben the mailing list is a lot for me to keep up with :P
2020-06-09 19:24:33 @ben are you testing tilde.pink mail tiwesdaeg ?
2020-06-09 19:24:37 ~tiwesdaeg tomasino: not yet
2020-06-09 19:24:47 solderpunk Yeah, the list is super exhausting.
2020-06-09 19:24:49 ~tiwesdaeg I'm getting everything from the list
2020-06-09 19:25:04 solderpunk I can't wait to finalise the spec and resume a cyber mountain hermit lifestyle.
2020-06-09 19:25:14 xq haha
2020-06-09 19:25:19 @ben lol
2020-06-09 19:25:27 xq btw, solderpunk: have you thought about gemini for automation?
2020-06-09 19:25:30 @tomasino get back to finger work
2020-06-09 19:25:41 xq i think a lot of systems could benefit from gemini instead of HTTP for stuff like REST
2020-06-09 19:25:46 @ben Jun 9 15:25:34 tilde postfix/smtp[6287]: 1726F2E2062D: to=<tiwesdaeg@tilde.pink>, relay=tilde.pink[192.95.3.21]:25, delay=1.4, delays=0.26/0.01/1.1/0, dsn=4.4.2, status=deferred (lost connection with tilde.pink[192.95.3.21] while performing the EHLO handshake)
2020-06-09 19:25:55 @ben oops sorry i should have /query'd that
2020-06-09 19:26:08 solderpunk I definitely have, it's actually one of my motivations for wanting to make client certs a thing.
2020-06-09 19:26:16 solderpunk Instead of API tokens or whatever the kids are passing around nowadays.
2020-06-09 19:26:17 xq ah!
2020-06-09 19:26:18 xq yep
2020-06-09 19:26:31 xq that's why i was asking for an improved way to uploading data as well
2020-06-09 19:26:31 @ben client certs seem like a much nicer way for auth than tokens
2020-06-09 19:26:49 xq maybe i should write an RFC or something and make a POC implementation
2020-06-09 19:26:57 ~tiwesdaeg I hate mail servers
2020-06-09 19:26:58 xq to see how well it works
2020-06-09 19:27:05 @tomasino xq, hit up khuxkm if you are
2020-06-09 19:27:08 xq tiwesdaeg: how doesn't?
2020-06-09 19:27:12 @ben tiwesdaeg: they're fine once you get em running
2020-06-09 19:27:14 @tomasino he's working on something similar for the1024.club
2020-06-09 19:27:34 @tomasino i agree tiwesdaeg. mail servers are the worst
2020-06-09 19:28:20 xq how can i reach khuxkm?
2020-06-09 19:28:30 @tomasino he's in #meta
2020-06-09 19:28:50 @tomasino that's the big party room
2020-06-09 19:29:19 solderpunk Re uploads: I kind of really want to say "embrace limitation and enjoy the creativity it enforces! Think of cool things to do that fit inside 1024 byte queries!".
2020-06-09 19:29:38 solderpunk But I dunno if that's going to massively curb adoption in that RESTish sphere.
2020-06-09 19:29:46 solderpunk I really dunno what people even do with that stuff.
2020-06-09 19:29:52 @tomasino solderpunk: https://tildegit.org/the1024.club/the1024.club
2020-06-09 19:29:52 xq i don't think so ^^
2020-06-09 19:29:58 xq also, it's way less than 1024 byte data :(
2020-06-09 19:30:04 solderpunk Ah, true.
2020-06-09 19:30:14 solderpunk How much actual data does 1024 bytes of base64 bit?
2020-06-09 19:30:50 solderpunk Oh, wow, that's awesome! (the 1024.club)
2020-06-09 19:31:16 @tomasino i've been so swamped with work i haven't gotten to work on it much
2020-06-09 19:31:21 solderpunk Need to make some cool 32x32 pixel black-and-white avatars that look good blown up.
2020-06-09 19:31:21 xq i think it's 700 something
2020-06-09 19:31:21 xq with a valid url and all characters escaped, you're at roughly 500 i think
2020-06-09 19:31:39 solderpunk Hmm.
2020-06-09 19:32:00 solderpunk (registers the 512.club...)
2020-06-09 19:32:03 xj9 1024 bytes might be a little smol for bfs file replication, logs can fit in that size with out too much chunk overhead.
2020-06-09 19:32:08 @tomasino hehehe
2020-06-09 19:32:37 solderpunk I mean, I'll guess I'll read your RFC with interest.
2020-06-09 19:32:47 solderpunk If you can make it dead simple, I totally grant it will boost the power to weight ratio massively.
2020-06-09 19:34:02 @tomasino got a buddy who already has a math proof version of a FAT storage volume using ed25519 keys to link together the blocks on 1024. I need to finish building it just to see that in action
2020-06-09 19:34:07 solderpunk I just worry a lot of people will see it as Gemini jumping the shark on the whole idea of radical simplicity.
2020-06-09 19:34:18 xq solderpunk: my idea is dead simple
2020-06-09 19:34:23 xq and it has a simple assumption
2020-06-09 19:34:28 xq "no one wants to upload 0 byte of data"
2020-06-09 19:34:33 ~tiwesdaeg ok, made the weird dovecot error go away
2020-06-09 19:34:41 solderpunk Yay!
2020-06-09 19:34:45 ~tiwesdaeg tomasino: can you try a second test email?
2020-06-09 19:34:56 @tomasino you bet
2020-06-09 19:35:05 solderpunk I guess my messages should come in sometime soonish, sdf's mx will keep trying periodically.
2020-06-09 19:35:06 ~tiwesdaeg since I know I didn't get one from you recently
2020-06-09 19:35:15 ~tiwesdaeg gmail.com email came through fine
2020-06-09 19:35:27 ~tiwesdaeg if this fixed it
2020-06-09 19:35:31 @tomasino sent
2020-06-09 19:35:36 xj9 then again, LoRa messages are a lot smaller than 1024 bytes
2020-06-09 19:35:56 ~tiwesdaeg it did!
2020-06-09 19:36:17 ~tiwesdaeg so it was dovecot throwing a fit that somehow broke postfix
2020-06-09 19:36:57 ~tiwesdaeg solderpunk: I'll play around with some ideas for making the logo look better
2020-06-09 19:37:08 solderpunk The thing about breaking large content up into lots of ~1024 byte chunks over Gemini is that every single request has TLS handshake overhead so it's super wasteful.
2020-06-09 19:37:16 ~tiwesdaeg How do you feel about removing JS vs keeping it?
2020-06-09 19:37:21 solderpunk Hopefully better support for session resumption will make it a little better soon.
2020-06-09 19:37:30 solderpunk I actually wondered if bumping CSS for JS made sense?
2020-06-09 19:37:39 solderpunk Not that I don't have gripes with CSS, but JS is obviously worse.
2020-06-09 19:38:09 ~tiwesdaeg that could help clean up the look
2020-06-09 19:38:28 ~tiwesdaeg it just feels a bit crowded on top
2020-06-09 19:38:36 solderpunk Yeah, I agree, it does.
2020-06-09 19:40:28 @tomasino i'm honestly surprised nobody has plugged in a web browser on gemini yet just to be horrible
2020-06-09 19:40:48 solderpunk How do you mean?
2020-06-09 19:40:58 xq tomasino: you can use HTML sites with Kristall *grin*
2020-06-09 19:41:03 @tomasino if i serve a type/html and the client can render html it can fetch the css and js over gemini as well
2020-06-09 19:41:04 xq but they get rendered in pure text form
2020-06-09 19:41:14 @tomasino nothing stopping a full web browser just piggy backing on gemini://
2020-06-09 19:41:19 solderpunk Oh, right.
2020-06-09 19:41:32 solderpunk No, there's not.
2020-06-09 19:41:42 solderpunk But I mean it would suck for most websites.
2020-06-09 19:41:52 ~tiwesdaeg I'm guessing mission XII isn't anything special
2020-06-09 19:41:53 @tomasino oh yes, it would be a waste of time and energy
2020-06-09 19:41:56 solderpunk Which depend on pipelining and other stuff to be almost just barely usable.
2020-06-09 19:42:17 solderpunk Yeah, but that doesn't stop people doing all kinds of things on the internet. :p
2020-06-09 19:42:21 solderpunk Not us, of course.
2020-06-09 19:42:22 @tomasino but even so, i'm honestly surprised nobody has a proof of concept of that one yet
2020-06-09 19:42:38 @tomasino we only do meaningful things, like social networks over finger
2020-06-09 19:42:46 solderpunk No, it was just a nice "graphic"-looking capsule in the right colour.
2020-06-09 19:43:07 solderpunk Speaking of, did anybody read my Corned Beef post about lightweight microblogging over Gemini?
2020-06-09 19:43:31 @tomasino oh yes
2020-06-09 19:43:46 @tomasino it sounded very neat but got into the client stuff i don't grok
2020-06-09 19:44:16 solderpunk I really like that it's technically possible, but it feels very un-"Small Internet".
2020-06-09 19:44:25 solderpunk But I might make at least a little one-person version of it for myself.
2020-06-09 19:44:33 xq no, didn't. reading now!
2020-06-09 19:44:42 solderpunk I want an analogue of Shufei's weiphlog, for simple, short thoughts.
2020-06-09 19:44:44 tadzik link? :)
2020-06-09 19:45:03 xq gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/users/solderpunk/cornedbeef/microblogging-via-gemini-a-sketch.gmi
2020-06-09 19:45:06 tadzik cheers
2020-06-09 19:46:06 xq solderpunk: do you have me resources on atom feeds? is there an RFC or something?
2020-06-09 19:46:22 solderpunk There is!
2020-06-09 19:46:29 solderpunk Unlike RSS :p
2020-06-09 19:46:33 xq neat
2020-06-09 19:46:41 solderpunk And there's a validator at w3c.org and bla bla bla. Hand on...
2020-06-09 19:46:53 solderpunk https://validator.w3.org/feed/docs/atom.html
2020-06-09 19:47:00 @tomasino hehe
2020-06-09 19:47:55 xq nice, so i can provide my blog as an atom feed as well
2020-06-09 19:47:56 xq :D
2020-06-09 19:48:03 ~tiwesdaeg ben: your test came in too and tomasino's first
2020-06-09 19:48:10 ~tiwesdaeg looks like we are feeding along now
2020-06-09 19:48:21 solderpunk Please let me know if you do!
2020-06-09 19:48:40 xq yeah
2020-06-09 19:48:43 solderpunk If Gemini keeps growing at current rates (which it may not, obviously HN induced a big spike), it's going to get pretty hard to find/follow stuff soon.
2020-06-09 19:48:50 xq oh, and: Kristall is now also a Gopher client!
2020-06-09 19:48:59 solderpunk So people really need to start publishing feeds, or doing *something* if they want to get read.
2020-06-09 19:51:07 lukee hi everyone - just back from my government-sanctioned daily walk
2020-06-09 19:51:23 xq hey lukee!
2020-06-09 19:51:27 lukee hiya
2020-06-09 19:51:36 solderpunk Howdy!
2020-06-09 19:51:57 lukee talking of feeds I've been wondering if we could define a feed format in text/gmi instead of xml
2020-06-09 19:52:12 lukee it would be dogfooding the format in other places
2020-06-09 19:52:21 lukee does a feed really need to be xml?
2020-06-09 19:52:52 lukee for now I have a simple text/gmi to atom converter I am looking into
2020-06-09 19:53:22 lukee and the source data would double as an index file into the blog posts
2020-06-09 19:54:01 tadzik well, feed can be whatever feed readers can read :)
2020-06-09 19:54:15 ~tiwesdaeg solderpunk: https://ttm.sh/QS3.png
2020-06-09 19:54:23 ~tiwesdaeg just playing with the rounded idea
2020-06-09 19:54:46 solderpunk Oooh~!
2020-06-09 19:55:14 ~tiwesdaeg I was trying to keep it 3 colors still
2020-06-09 19:55:57 ~tiwesdaeg if we made the spacecraft and gemini logo black we could make the circle orange
2020-06-09 19:56:24 lukee something like this - is a similar to simplified atom
2020-06-09 19:56:25 lukee https://imgur.com/a/cRxl2Rw
2020-06-09 19:56:44 solderpunk I'd like that, it would make it resemble the original more.
2020-06-09 19:56:54 solderpunk Do people recognise the original, out of curiosity?
2020-06-09 19:56:57 lukee what is the double pi symbol thing?
2020-06-09 19:57:10 xq solderpunk: i like your idea of microblogging/gemini
2020-06-09 19:57:29 ~tiwesdaeg give me a second
2020-06-09 19:57:31 solderpunk The Gemini zodiac sign.
2020-06-09 19:57:49 lukee ok - might be a bit obscure for a general audience?
2020-06-09 19:59:19 solderpunk True. I'm not really thinking of this as an "official" logo, just a cute little bit of marketing.
2020-06-09 20:00:33 lukee the visual design is nice and simple and bold - good from a marketing point of view
2020-06-09 20:01:04 lukee I take it there is a reference to this style of button in popular culture (whatever that is!)
2020-06-09 20:04:11 ~tiwesdaeg https://ttm.sh/QSY.png
2020-06-09 20:04:51 ~tiwesdaeg I'm not sure how I feel about that one
2020-06-09 20:05:11 solderpunk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smiling_Sun
2020-06-09 20:06:04 ~tiwesdaeg do you like the sun's color better?
2020-06-09 20:06:08 solderpunk It seems most popular in Germany (Atomkraft? Nein, danke!), but I've seen a Swedish version here, too.
2020-06-09 20:06:35 solderpunk I wonder how it would look with a darker, redder orange, like the original?
2020-06-09 20:06:40 ~tiwesdaeg that orange comes from the gemini patch
2020-06-09 20:06:53 solderpunk Yeah, I know.
2020-06-09 20:07:05 solderpunk Maybe that is a good a reason to keep it.
2020-06-09 20:08:35 lukee how about even more explicit: bloated, slow, and tracked? No thanks!
2020-06-09 20:08:59 ~tiwesdaeg https://ttm.sh/QSC.png
2020-06-09 20:09:37 solderpunk The acronyms barely fit as it is!
2020-06-09 20:09:50 ~tiwesdaeg oops
2020-06-09 20:09:55 ~tiwesdaeg messed up that png
2020-06-09 20:12:16 solderpunk Actually, having seen it, I much prefer the orange from the Gemini mission patch.
2020-06-09 20:16:56 solderpunk Sorry to be fussy!
2020-06-09 20:17:23 ~tiwesdaeg no worries
2020-06-09 20:17:37 ~tiwesdaeg I realized I messed something up on the rotation
2020-06-09 20:17:45 xq solderpunk: speccing a upload ability is hard. damn.
2020-06-09 20:17:51 ~tiwesdaeg I'm playing with a sun like background idea
2020-06-09 20:18:21 ~tiwesdaeg gotta drive home, but I will poke around some more
2020-06-09 20:18:31 solderpunk No rush! Thanks again for the effort.
2020-06-09 20:18:42 solderpunk xq: yeah, it ain't as easy as it looks :p
2020-06-09 20:18:54 ~tiwesdaeg also, I am receiving your emails now!
2020-06-09 20:19:11 ~tiwesdaeg I'll be back
2020-06-09 20:19:16 xq "problem" is the simplicity
2020-06-09 20:19:41 xq Gemini State Machine is pretty much {Request} → {Response}
2020-06-09 20:19:47 solderpunk Yeah, simple is hard!
2020-06-09 20:19:54 xq tre
2020-06-09 20:19:55 xq *true
2020-06-09 20:20:07 xq my idea was to terminate a client upload by "close the connection"
2020-06-09 20:20:19 xq but this requires a more complex state machine
2020-06-09 20:20:37 solderpunk I mean, in an ideal world I'd say you should upload stuff by running a small, transient server of your own, and sending it's URL as a query to an "upload point".
2020-06-09 20:20:40 xq {Request} → {Response/10} → {Upload}
2020-06-09 20:20:51 solderpunk But that only works in a dream world where people aren't stuck behind NATs and shit.
2020-06-09 20:20:55 xq yep
2020-06-09 20:21:17 xq i cannot use finger://ping@cosmic.voyage from my mobile phone
2020-06-09 20:21:19 solderpunk I was so naively optimistic ten years ago about how IPv6 would change everything in that regard. :p
2020-06-09 20:21:28 xq i don't have IPv6
2020-06-09 20:22:34 solderpunk Me neither.
2020-06-09 20:23:05 xq :(
2020-06-09 20:23:08 xq modern world it is.
2020-06-09 20:23:56 solderpunk <crazy hat>The powers that be won't let it happen. If NAT went away, there would be no reason for IOT and other "smart" devices to go through middle men, and then nobody would get huge piles of data as a side-effect of selling their future eWaste, and the entire IOT industry would collapse</crazy hat>
2020-06-09 20:24:22 xq that's a tin foil hat :D
2020-06-09 20:24:49 xq Hanlon’s Razor is probably the cause
2020-06-09 20:24:49 solderpunk I mean, I honestly believe that's the motivation behind most "smart" appliances.
2020-06-09 20:25:00 xq that's something i'm with you
2020-06-09 20:25:35 xq the company i work at has smart devices as well and we have a portal that collects data for the users
2020-06-09 20:25:56 xq but: we don't do anything with the data. it's there for the users themselves to analyze or just watch
2020-06-09 20:26:25 solderpunk For now :p
2020-06-09 20:26:29 xq nah
2020-06-09 20:26:37 xq we do that since 2010
2020-06-09 20:27:24 solderpunk Well, I wish that were the norm.
2020-06-09 20:27:28 xq yeah!
2020-06-09 20:27:36 xq and only because our clients wanted that
2020-06-09 20:27:57 xq our devices are always available without internet access
2020-06-09 20:28:07 xq you can control them via local network
2020-06-09 20:28:20 xq "IoT" isn't really a thing, most of us hate it :D
2020-06-09 20:28:42 ▬▬▶ acdw has joined #gemini
2020-06-09 20:29:05 ▬▬▶ testingSun has joined #gemini
2020-06-09 20:29:28 testingSun eh?
2020-06-09 20:31:23 xq hello testingSun
2020-06-09 20:31:48 testingSun Hello, xj9 brought me here, still recapitulating.
2020-06-09 20:32:12 solderpunk The sun works pretty well, I can assure you!
2020-06-09 20:32:23 testingSun Yes lol indeed.
2020-06-09 20:32:35 solderpunk Are you affiliated with Sunshine Gardens?
2020-06-09 20:32:39 testingSun absolutely
2020-06-09 20:33:48 mhj Heyo all, running a gemini server on a FreeBSD machine on Digital Ocean. Still getting everything together. How're y'all doing?
2020-06-09 20:34:02 @tomasino lovely
2020-06-09 20:34:04 testingSun Gemini reminds me of GoFish.
2020-06-09 20:34:12 xq hey mhj
2020-06-09 20:34:17 lukee hi mhj - doing good thanks
2020-06-09 20:34:17 solderpunk Yay! I'm a fan of the SG philosophy.
2020-06-09 20:34:21 solderpunk Hey1
2020-06-09 20:34:22 xq doing well, my weekend just started! *grin*
2020-06-09 20:34:28 mhj Noice :D
2020-06-09 20:34:35 testingSun noice
2020-06-09 20:35:31 mhj Does everyone here run a gemini server too? Or is this mostly to just discuss the protocol? In any case, my server is at earthlight.xyz
2020-06-09 20:36:09 ⚡ xq can be found at gemini://random-projects.net
2020-06-09 20:36:12 @tomasino i run tilde.black and cosmic.voyage which are both now on gemini
2020-06-09 20:36:40 mhj Ooh nice. I remember them on gopher, tomasino
2020-06-09 20:36:55 lukee mjh: anything you like if there is a Gemini angle I think
2020-06-09 20:37:06 xq tomasino: i can probably help with the advanced error codes
2020-06-09 20:37:09 acdw One day I will run a server! Just have to figure out where to migrate to from nearlyfreespeech.net
2020-06-09 20:37:28 mhj I shall see the gemini version and I'll see your server too, xq
2020-06-09 20:37:49 xq btw, solderpunk: just publish the RFC on my blog (link above)
2020-06-09 20:37:58 lukee mjh: would be good to see some content on your server :)
2020-06-09 20:38:12 xq i pretty much gave up on that approach, as it's too complex for now… but maybe somehow actually does comment it ! :D
2020-06-09 20:38:25 testingSun cute servers tomasino
2020-06-09 20:38:31 mhj I mostly have more content on my website and gopher, but gemini content is coming!
2020-06-09 20:38:41 @tomasino thanks, testingSun
2020-06-09 20:38:52 testingSun acdw: they don't have ssh accounts anymore?
2020-06-09 20:39:10 solderpunk Hmm, why can't I connect to random-projets.net with AV-98?
2020-06-09 20:39:36 testingSun http://gofish.sourceforge.net/ this is what I was talking about, both are extremely similar
2020-06-09 20:39:42 xq probably because i've fucked up the server :D
2020-06-09 20:39:59 xq it doesn't do TLS 1.2 atm :D
2020-06-09 20:40:04 acdw testingSun: they do, and I have one, but I want gemini on my own domain :)
2020-06-09 20:40:08 xq porting the server atm
2020-06-09 20:40:20 xj9 i'm working on converting my site to gemini and adding gemini / gopher support to sunshine gardens tilde
2020-06-09 20:40:24 xj9 *my blog
2020-06-09 20:40:28 xj9 is fun project
2020-06-09 20:40:58 testingSun acdw: ah, I see! Yeah, I'm done with ICAAN
2020-06-09 20:41:16 mhj solderpunk: I was getting the same error. I use av-98 too
2020-06-09 20:41:19 @tomasino gemini over tor time?
2020-06-09 20:41:32 solderpunk xj9: that makes me so happy! :)
2020-06-09 20:41:37 xj9 we gemini over yggdrasil
2020-06-09 20:41:41 testingSun xj9, there's a lot that can be cut, when I get my paycheck, I'm renovating IRC, how it should have been run.
2020-06-09 20:42:01 xj9 nice
2020-06-09 20:42:36 xj9 solderpunk: <3
2020-06-09 20:42:44 testingSun xj9: Sorry about July, won't make it, I have 3 jobs now, all physically demanding and present. fml
2020-06-09 20:42:53 acdw oooooof
2020-06-09 20:42:58 acdw that really sucks testingSun
2020-06-09 20:43:00 solderpunk I am so going to play with yggdrasil once Gemini stops eating 90% of my geek time.
2020-06-09 20:43:00 testingSun all part times
2020-06-09 20:43:14 xj9 that's ok we won't either, 2020 has been a shitshow for all involved
2020-06-09 20:43:24 testingSun wait what?
2020-06-09 20:43:35 testingSun ohhhhhh
2020-06-09 20:43:41 testingSun oh, damn
2020-06-09 20:44:07 xj9 looking for a job rn lol
2020-06-09 20:44:09 testingSun Can I offer you a job at Fedex then lol?
2020-06-09 20:44:35 testingSun I get 100$ for recommendations
2020-06-09 20:45:25 mhj When I'm not fooling around with gemini, gopher, and my website, I'm streaming or writing my zine. I wish I had a job tho, but I have school atm.
2020-06-09 20:46:04 testingSun You're lucky, I'm going back to finish a doctorate after I get 2k$
2020-06-09 20:51:16 solderpunk I think the AV-98 + random-projects.net problem is AV-98' fault.
2020-06-09 20:53:38 testingSun Will Gemini support TLS 3, or is gemini based enough to ignore it, and attempt postquantuum shakes?
2020-06-09 20:54:28 solderpunk TLS 3?
2020-06-09 20:55:24 xq solderpunk: not sure… i'm using gemserv, but a tad modified :D
2020-06-09 20:57:37 solderpunk Nah, it's an unintentionally over-restrictive ciphersuite on my end.
2020-06-09 20:57:45 solderpunk I'm looking at your upload post now.
2020-06-09 20:57:59 testingSun solderpunk: 1.3, just less typing
2020-06-09 20:58:50 testingSun https://tools.ietf.org/rfc/rfc8446.txt
2020-06-09 21:00:02 solderpunk Oh, 1.3, sure.
2020-06-09 21:00:09 testingSun fuggg
2020-06-09 21:00:17 solderpunk Heck, I really *want* to mandate 1.3 or above only.
2020-06-09 21:00:31 solderpunk But until very recently that would have ruled out LibreSSL, and it *still* rules out BearSSL.
2020-06-09 21:01:01 testingSun You don't know what you're asking wwwwwwww
2020-06-09 21:01:55 solderpunk Am I missing something? 1.3 is drastically simpler than the earlier versions.
2020-06-09 21:02:53 testingSun You're welcome if you like: https://github.com/wolfSSL/wolfssl
2020-06-09 21:03:32 solderpunk Oh, huh!
2020-06-09 21:03:37 testingSun solderpunk: there 3 caveats to TLS1.3 that technically make it insecure, and it's by spec.
2020-06-09 21:03:53 acdw hey do yall remember if there was consensus on doing TOFU per-domain or per-path?
2020-06-09 21:04:04 testingSun But, ye ask for a demand, ye give fill it
2020-06-09 21:05:06 solderpunk Certs are per-domain, not per-path, so I'm not sure how per-path TOFU would work...
2020-06-09 21:05:29 solderpunk testingSun: Got a link on these 3 caveats?
2020-06-09 21:05:39 acdw hah thanks solderpunk. Just making sure :)
2020-06-09 21:06:29 testingSun 3 doctors wrote about it, including I in my darkblog solderpunk. Exercise on security is recommended.
2020-06-09 21:09:14 xj9 rough start, and it wont live here permanently https://portal.mozz.us/gemini/xj9.io/
2020-06-09 21:09:30 testingSun qt
2020-06-09 21:10:16 solderpunk In some ways Gemini is deliberately not super ambitious on the security front, for the sake of being "radically familiar" and easy to implement.
2020-06-09 21:10:44 solderpunk TLS ain't perfect, but "definitely not worse than the web" is good enough for a whole lot of folk.
2020-06-09 21:12:16 solderpunk Compared to Gopher, it's obviously and clearly a step up, and compared to the web, it's obviously and clearly on par, so it's not a reason *against* shifting from either.
2020-06-09 21:12:18 testingSun There's a saying I keep close to heart solderpunk:
2020-06-09 21:12:18 testingSun The illusion of security is far worse than no security at all.
2020-06-09 21:13:18 xq testingSun: where's the problem with TLS security for day-to-day communications?
2020-06-09 21:13:36 testingSun Regarding specifically TLS, it's just sugar for investors.
2020-06-09 21:14:17 testingSun Several, I prefer not to rant here, or in the clearnet.
2020-06-09 21:14:33 solderpunk It that a criticism of the CA system, or of the crypto primitives in TLS?
2020-06-09 21:15:28 testingSun The design, scoping our Dragnet Surveillance Machina today. ISPs are deliberately complicit.
2020-06-09 21:16:39 testingSun Covid19 did help me pop a few cherries though, so I'm thankful for those.
2020-06-09 21:17:41 solderpunk If an ISP feeds you a phony certificate with a valid CA signature as part of some kind of state-level scheme, a TOFU client will spot that.
2020-06-09 21:17:59 solderpunk I don't believe ISPs can break AES or DH.
2020-06-09 21:19:27 xq If anyone can break AES/DH, we can just stop encrypting anyways
2020-06-09 21:20:10 xj9 afaik AES and SHA2+ are unlikely to break
2020-06-09 21:20:28 xj9 DH will probably break if i'm remembering correctly that its for EC key exchange
2020-06-09 21:21:32 solderpunk There's nothing inherently EC about DH, it's defined over arbitrary groups.
2020-06-09 21:21:33 testingSun solderpunk: notice, I'm not talking about crypto, for good reason.
2020-06-09 21:21:50 solderpunk Right, thta's why I asked if you were criticising the CA system.
2020-06-09 21:21:56 solderpunk In which case, I'm all with you.
2020-06-09 21:22:02 testingSun notevenclose
2020-06-09 21:22:04 solderpunk Just saying "the design" isn't giving me much to go on.
2020-06-09 21:23:24 testingSun look up "tls 1.3 [flaws, caveats, ill, bad,[etc.]]", you'll find 2/3rds of my opinion on my .i2p.
2020-06-09 21:25:03 testingSun My opinion doxes me a bit, which is why I'm extremely hesitant on sharing. Not that I don't want to address you, solderpunk
2020-06-09 21:25:20 solderpunk I understand that.
2020-06-09 21:28:09 testingSun xj9, saw what ch sent me?
2020-06-09 21:28:37 xj9 i don' think so?
2020-06-09 21:29:22 ⚡ xq is a bit hyped
2020-06-09 21:29:40 xq It seems like Kristall is also working on Haiku
2020-06-09 21:30:38 testingSun https://blog.chiariglione.org/a-future-without-mpeg/
2020-06-09 21:31:02 @tomasino huzzah
2020-06-09 21:31:04 testingSun I've been holding my laughter
2020-06-09 21:42:37 xq solderpunk: what do you use to create/update your atom feed?
2020-06-09 21:43:06 solderpunk https://tildegit.org/solderpunk/gemfeed, of course :p
2020-06-09 21:43:33 solderpunk It's quick and painless if you use # headers, have a sensible filesystem layout, and can manage to avoid messing up your filesystem timestamps.
2020-06-09 21:43:54 solderpunk Which it turns out is a set of criteria almost nobody can actually manage :p
2020-06-09 21:44:06 solderpunk Some people hax0r it up a little.
2020-06-09 21:45:28 xq hm
2020-06-09 21:45:35 solderpunk You can make it a bit less fiddly if you choose to put YYYY-MM-DD stamps at the front of your filenames.
2020-06-09 21:45:55 xq i have that already
2020-06-09 21:46:06 solderpunk Yeah, I just had a quick look.
2020-06-09 21:46:25 xq maybe i'll hack something together
2020-06-09 21:46:39 solderpunk Looks like making a feed for your `blog` dir will just work.
2020-06-09 21:46:47 solderpunk No hacking should be required.
2020-06-09 21:47:09 solderpunk You have one-file-per-post, all posts in the same dir, timestamps in the filenames, headers in the files.
2020-06-09 21:47:20 solderpunk Congratulations on your rare common sense :p
2020-06-09 21:47:36 xq thanks
2020-06-09 21:47:48 xq i'm not always that … sensible
2020-06-09 21:47:52 xq my server is a horrible mess
2020-06-09 21:48:08 solderpunk Haha.
2020-06-09 21:48:19 solderpunk Well, let me know if gemfeed doesn't work out of the box for you, but I think it will.
2020-06-09 21:48:24 solderpunk Anyway, I'm off to bed.
2020-06-09 21:48:29 xq it means i have to install python :D
2020-06-09 21:48:45 solderpunk testingSun, I've found some interesting TLS 1.3 reading. Thanks for the pointers.
2020-06-09 21:48:54 solderpunk Ah, true.
2020-06-09 21:49:03 ⚡ xq is no fan of the snek
2020-06-09 21:49:11 solderpunk If you don't have it already, I retract my common sense comment :p
2020-06-09 21:49:16 acdw lolol
2020-06-09 21:49:27 acdw xq: you could rewrite it in bash!
2020-06-09 21:49:29 solderpunk I bet you can find an Atom library in your language of choice.
2020-06-09 21:49:37 acdw or shoot *I* could try rewriting it in bash
2020-06-09 21:49:40 xq my language of choice would force me to write one :D
2020-06-09 21:49:44 acdw that'd be good for my personal site too
2020-06-09 21:49:57 solderpunk Or, heck, even an XML generating library would make it easy enough.
2020-06-09 21:50:06 xq hehe
2020-06-09 21:50:11 xq seems like string manips is enough
2020-06-09 21:50:25 solderpunk Yeah, there's not a lot to a minimal feed.
2020-06-09 21:51:00 solderpunk Alright, night everybody!
2020-06-09 21:51:07 acdw o/
2020-06-09 21:51:14 solderpunk has quit (Client exited)
2020-06-09 21:52:54 testingSun solderpunk: you're extremely welcome.
2020-06-09 21:52:54 testingSun Fug, i missed him.
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2020-06-09 22:14:02 ~tiwesdaeg testingSun: what is yggdrasil? besides a giant tree or an ancient linux distro
2020-06-09 22:14:19 testingSun eh?
2020-06-09 22:14:48 ~tiwesdaeg or was that xj9
2020-06-09 22:15:00 testingSun probably xj9
2020-06-09 22:15:13 ~tiwesdaeg yeah, sorry
2020-06-09 22:15:27 ~tiwesdaeg solderpunk also sounded like he knew what they were talking about
2020-06-09 22:15:28 testingSun but a quick google search https://yggdrasil-network.github.io/
2020-06-09 22:15:37 xj9 ^
2020-06-09 22:16:01 xj9 encrypted ipv6 overlay network
2020-06-09 22:16:02 xq >
2020-06-09 22:16:02 xq Yggdrasil is an early-stage implementation of a fully end-to-end encrypted IPv6 network.
2020-06-09 22:16:02 xq okay, i'm out.
2020-06-09 22:16:07 testingSun lol
2020-06-09 22:16:19 xq okay, i should continue reading :D
2020-06-09 22:16:49 testingSun upto you m8, Iirc this project tried to fix problems of another project
2020-06-09 22:17:02 xq was just referring to IPv6
2020-06-09 22:17:07 xq which is just "not there"
2020-06-09 22:17:17 testingSun and yes, it was yetanother Ipv6 p2p reimplementation
2020-06-09 22:17:40 xj9 works better than cjdns imo
2020-06-09 22:17:48 testingSun I forgot the project, yeaaah that one!
2020-06-09 22:17:52 ~tiwesdaeg ok, grilling time
2020-06-09 22:18:03 xj9 well, more like out of experience. out network is way more stable on yggdrasil than it was on cjdns
2020-06-09 22:18:05 xq tiwesdaeg: I'm jealous now
2020-06-09 22:18:07 testingSun whatchu cooking?
2020-06-09 22:18:39 testingSun something like that, haven't played it with at all, so I can't say anything.
2020-06-09 22:18:41 ~tiwesdaeg gotta do something in this hot southern heat
2020-06-09 22:18:53 ~tiwesdaeg we don't have nice weather like in Deutschland
2020-06-09 22:19:00 testingSun build an underground bunker, and cool off
2020-06-09 22:19:04 ~tiwesdaeg just some hotdogs, jalapenos
2020-06-09 22:19:08 testingSun nice
2020-06-09 22:19:10 ~tiwesdaeg making seattle style hotdogs
2020-06-09 22:19:18 testingSun nicer
2020-06-09 22:19:24 xq sounds good
2020-06-09 22:19:33 xq and the weather here is … okayish right now?
2020-06-09 22:19:37 ~tiwesdaeg gotta grill some onions too
2020-06-09 22:19:44 xq it rained bit (which is nice!), but it got cold again
2020-06-09 22:19:55 testingSun yum, you got me salivating now
2020-06-09 22:19:57 ~tiwesdaeg cold = nice
2020-06-09 22:20:14 xq it dependes
2020-06-09 22:20:18 xq i'm on the 22°C train
2020-06-09 22:20:20 ~tiwesdaeg here it is hot and humid all summer long
2020-06-09 22:20:22 testingSun heh
2020-06-09 22:20:28 xq tiwesdaeg: rough location?
2020-06-09 22:20:46 ~tiwesdaeg Memphis metro area
2020-06-09 22:20:52 ~tiwesdaeg on the Mississippi side
2020-06-09 22:21:33 ~tiwesdaeg I was actually born in Deutschland, but haven't been back since 1988
2020-06-09 22:21:43 ~tiwesdaeg so I know it has nice weather ;P
2020-06-09 22:21:54 xq haha
2020-06-09 22:22:01 xq weather has changed in the last years though
2020-06-09 22:22:20 ~tiwesdaeg hasn't it everywhere?
2020-06-09 22:22:32 xq probably, can only speak for Baden-Württemberg though :D
2020-06-09 22:22:38 ~tiwesdaeg I guess it used to snow regularly here in the winter and you could ice skate on the ponds
2020-06-09 22:22:51 testingSun same difference. I'm just waiting for the glaciers to melt, and the poles to shift.
2020-06-09 22:22:51 xq we had snow last year…
2020-06-09 22:22:59 ~tiwesdaeg now you're lucky if you get a dusting once
2020-06-09 22:23:23 testingSun #NoMoreWinter in twitter soon.
2020-06-09 22:23:33 ~tiwesdaeg I've only been here for two years though
2020-06-09 22:23:39 testingSun come to your local news® outlet.
2020-06-09 22:23:40 ~tiwesdaeg maybe we'll luck out this winter
2020-06-09 22:24:16 xq i really hope we get more rain soon
2020-06-09 22:24:18 ~tiwesdaeg I used to live up near Bremerhaven
2020-06-09 22:24:21 xq it's way too dry
2020-06-09 22:24:40 ~tiwesdaeg in Osterholz-Scharmbeck
2020-06-09 22:24:57 xq that's a very german name :D
2020-06-09 22:26:10 ~tiwesdaeg I know
2020-06-09 22:26:32 ~tiwesdaeg Used to be an american army base in the area
2020-06-09 22:33:53 ~tiwesdaeg xq: you get that cmark going?
2020-06-09 22:34:03 ~tiwesdaeg darn coals aren't ready eyt
2020-06-09 22:34:20 xq nope, didn't work on that yet…
2020-06-09 22:34:30 xq postponed that for "later", want to get my 0.2 release ready
2020-06-09 22:34:44 ~tiwesdaeg I see it in the lib directory
2020-06-09 22:34:47 xq yeah, true
2020-06-09 22:34:50 xq i prepared!
2020-06-09 22:35:25 xq working on OS default handling atm
2020-06-09 22:35:32 xq so you can open telnet links and such
2020-06-09 22:36:16 ~tiwesdaeg how many telnet servers are left in the world?
2020-06-09 22:37:10 xq good question
2020-06-09 22:37:26 xq i found one on gopher://bitreich.org
2020-06-09 22:37:33 wgreenhouse tiwesdaeg: intentional, or de facto?
2020-06-09 22:37:43 ~tiwesdaeg intentional
2020-06-09 22:37:58 ~tiwesdaeg I mean, how many operating systems run telnet by default?
2020-06-09 22:38:15 ~tiwesdaeg a lot you have to enable ssh
2020-06-09 22:43:27 @tomasino i have some links to telnet BBS's on my gopher hole in the explorations area
2020-06-09 22:52:56 xq thanks for that rabbit hole
2020-06-09 22:53:16 xq i'm now talking to a Apple ][ via Telnet
2020-06-09 23:00:54 @tomasino that's a great BBS
2020-06-09 23:00:55 @tomasino :)
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2020-06-10 01:06:31 xq just released Kristall V0.2: https://github.com/MasterQ32/kristall/releases/tag/V0.2
2020-06-10 01:07:28 xq and now: bed. took me way longer than planned to make that version ready.
2020-06-10 01:10:31 epoch > cool 32x32 pixel black-and-white avatars
2020-06-10 01:10:43 epoch or have them 48x48 and they'll be x-face size
2020-06-10 01:13:33 xq has quit (Connection closed)
2020-06-10 01:53:31 mhj Ooh BBS talk
2020-06-10 01:54:36 mhj Too bad I missed it lol
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2020-06-10 06:30:53 ℹ Mode #gemini [+o julienxx] by ChanServ
2020-06-10 06:43:23 epoch hrm. gemini link shortener
2020-06-10 06:43:44 epoch inb4 link shorteners are terrible broken-link-causing cancer
2020-06-10 08:01:22 ℹ epoch is now known as `epochbot
2020-06-10 09:14:57 ℹ `epochbot is now known as epoch
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2020-06-10 09:52:44 jan6 lol
2020-06-10 09:53:19 jan6 link shorteners are good as long as you don't use them in your sites, and only use them for sharing with humans
2020-06-10 09:53:47 jan6 (unless you use your own shortener, where you know it'll be around as long as the site is)
2020-06-10 10:10:38 xq Link shorteners are the epitome of tracking
2020-06-10 10:13:34 tadzik I thought they're a testament to IRC clients with poor line wrapping
2020-06-10 10:13:58 tadzik and talks where one of the slides says "get the examples here"
2020-06-10 10:16:21 xq yeah, for talks they're okay
2020-06-10 10:21:01 epoch > IRC clients with poor line wrapping
2020-06-10 10:21:10 epoch that's what I use mine for mostly
2020-06-10 10:22:55 epoch > link shorteners are the epitome of tracking
2020-06-10 10:23:21 epoch not all link shorteners are bastards
2020-06-10 10:24:41 xq true, but they must have high moral standards to not do accidential tracking (log files)
2020-06-10 10:25:32 ⚡ epoch checks what accidental tracking epo.k.vu might be doing
2020-06-10 10:26:13 epoch logs... date/time, IPs, requested resource, useragent
2020-06-10 10:26:31 xq does it note what the link is referring to? :D
2020-06-10 10:26:57 epoch the links are stored on the same computer as the logs
2020-06-10 10:28:03 epoch so, they could be manually dereferenced
2020-06-10 10:28:06 xq yeah that's kinda what i meant with "accidential tracking" :D
2020-06-10 10:28:15 epoch assuming they're still around
2020-06-10 10:28:23 xq it's not like it's bad, but it's still kinda tracking. you just don't do it :D
2020-06-10 10:29:24 epoch the logs are stored on a tmpfs so they get cleared quite often
2020-06-10 10:29:38 ⚡ epoch checks uptime
2020-06-10 10:29:40 epoch 1 day ago
2020-06-10 10:32:13 epoch alright, so...
2020-06-10 10:32:21 xq ah nice :)
2020-06-10 10:32:27 xq +1 for tmpfs logs
2020-06-10 10:32:28 epoch how do I not do "accidental tracking" while still being able to catch attacks?
2020-06-10 10:33:41 epoch (and bugs)
2020-06-10 10:34:16 xq yeah i think the logging with log rotation over some days is totally okay
2020-06-10 10:34:27 xq but i know a lot of servers where logs are kinda infinite
2020-06-10 10:38:11 ℹ epoch is now known as \_o-
2020-06-10 10:39:25 ℹ \_o- is now known as \_0-
2020-06-10 10:39:44 @tomasino i like having my own personal shortener
2020-06-10 10:39:54 @tomasino handy for linking people to projects without a big long thing
2020-06-10 10:40:00 @tomasino https://ino.is/stutter
2020-06-10 10:40:12 @tomasino https://ino.is/stitchy
2020-06-10 10:40:17 ℹ \_0- is now known as epoch
2020-06-10 10:44:24 ⚡ epoch adds a <blink> tag to gemini site
2020-06-10 11:06:15 xq we need more blink!
2020-06-10 11:46:37 dkibi in an alternative universe solderpunk ended all that inline decoration discussion by specifying precicely one inline decoration
2020-06-10 11:50:06 tadzik <decorated></decorated>
2020-06-10 11:50:08 ⚡ tadzik hides
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2020-06-10 12:37:35 ~tiwesdaeg guten morgen
2020-06-10 12:37:49 ⚡ tiwesdaeg is having a slow morning
2020-06-10 12:56:01 ▬▬▶ bacterio has joined #gemini
2020-06-10 12:58:52 xq hey tiwesdaeg
2020-06-10 12:59:57 ⚡ tomasino gives tiwesdaeg some groove - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUHgpFJBCw4
2020-06-10 13:02:44 ~tiwesdaeg yo
2020-06-10 13:02:47 ⚡ tiwesdaeg groves
2020-06-10 13:02:52 ~tiwesdaeg +o
2020-06-10 13:03:17 ~tiwesdaeg I see some markdown rendering
2020-06-10 13:06:16 @tomasino you do?
2020-06-10 13:06:23 xq now: certificate stuff for Kristall!
2020-06-10 13:06:49 ~tiwesdaeg still getting dark grey text only
2020-06-10 13:07:07 ~tiwesdaeg markdown looks good when you choose the light autotheming
2020-06-10 13:07:15 xq tiwesdaeg: i assume you talk about kristall? :D
2020-06-10 13:07:18 xq for markdown? probably, yes. plaintext works though
2020-06-10 13:07:20 ~tiwesdaeg I am
2020-06-10 13:07:26 xq haven't changed anything about markdown rendering yet
2020-06-10 13:07:35 xq want to get the certificate stuff done first
2020-06-10 13:08:13 @tomasino i better pull and update to the latest
2020-06-10 13:08:14 ~tiwesdaeg yes, plaintext looks right
2020-06-10 13:08:35 ~tiwesdaeg so much growth is so few days
2020-06-10 13:08:42 xq html is probably borked too
2020-06-10 13:08:47 @tomasino html is borked by design
2020-06-10 13:09:03 ~tiwesdaeg <bork></bork>
2020-06-10 13:09:17 ~tiwesdaeg hidden first and last tag of every html file
2020-06-10 13:09:37 @tomasino error, in html7 <bork> has no end tag. It must also come after the </head> but before <body>
2020-06-10 13:09:48 @tomasino :D
2020-06-10 13:10:01 xq :D
2020-06-10 13:10:09 ~tiwesdaeg I say this as I access irc through glowing-bear ;P
2020-06-10 13:11:11 @tomasino hah
2020-06-10 13:11:27 @tomasino web is my $DAY_JOB
2020-06-10 13:11:31 @tomasino it's just fun to make fun of
2020-06-10 13:11:52 ~tiwesdaeg I should have gone in to software
2020-06-10 13:14:25 xq uuuuh
2020-06-10 13:14:34 xq a friend of mine wants to try Kristall on her Pine Phone
2020-06-10 13:15:35 mk270 xq: are you the author of kristall, or of a different client?
2020-06-10 13:15:43 xq yeah, i'm creating Kristall
2020-06-10 13:16:17 mk270 url?
2020-06-10 13:16:54 xq https://github.com/MasterQ32/kristall
2020-06-10 13:18:25 @tomasino xq: https://ttm.sh/QSg.txt
2020-06-10 13:18:30 @tomasino some makefile love for you
2020-06-10 13:19:27 xq thanks
2020-06-10 13:19:56 @tomasino :)
2020-06-10 13:20:05 xq can you explain to me what "install" does?
2020-06-10 13:20:28 xq so, what's the difference to "cp"?
2020-06-10 13:23:50 bacterio has quit (Ping timeout: 120 seconds)
2020-06-10 13:25:00 @tomasino it also sets permissions properly with it and has some other advanced features
2020-06-10 13:25:31 xq ah!
2020-06-10 13:26:19 ~tiwesdaeg it looks looks like install also deletes the destination file
2020-06-10 13:26:39 ~tiwesdaeg I guess weird stuff happens if the file is running and you try to cp over it
2020-06-10 13:26:53 @tomasino sure can
2020-06-10 13:27:13 @tomasino install is a pretty standard convention for make installs too
2020-06-10 13:27:30 @tomasino i cleaned up your dependency tree and got rid of the PHONY too
2020-06-10 13:27:42 @tomasino i don't think you need the default: all there, either
2020-06-10 13:27:43 ~tiwesdaeg you should add an install of the kristall.desktop file as well
2020-06-10 13:27:45 @tomasino but i left it. it's not harming
2020-06-10 13:27:51 @tomasino i haven't made one yet
2020-06-10 13:27:54 @tomasino is there one in the repo?
2020-06-10 13:27:57 ~tiwesdaeg there is one already
2020-06-10 13:28:01 @tomasino oh, there is
2020-06-10 13:28:05 @tomasino okay, gimme a few
2020-06-10 13:28:13 @tomasino just got a request to push a site live
2020-06-10 13:29:00 ~tiwesdaeg I'm not sure the proper method for icon install
2020-06-10 13:30:47 @tomasino probably points to a install cache spot or something, but not sure where that would live
2020-06-10 13:31:02 @tomasino back in a while!
2020-06-10 13:50:46 ℹ paper is now known as paper__
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2020-06-10 14:04:23 ~tiwesdaeg hola bacterio!
2020-06-10 14:06:08 xq what tls libraries are you guys using? i need to include one to create client certificates with Kristall… I heard of LibreSSL and OpenSSL?
2020-06-10 14:07:01 ~tiwesdaeg bearssl?
2020-06-10 14:07:25 ~tiwesdaeg https://bearssl.org/
2020-06-10 14:07:26 xq i think bearssl has no option to *create* new certificates and keys
2020-06-10 14:07:32 paper Libressl is a fork of OpenSSL, so you shouldn't need to do almost anything to get it working
2020-06-10 14:07:33 ~tiwesdaeg seems to pop up from time to time
2020-06-10 14:07:48 xq paper: sounds good, so i can just solve this by adding a -lcrypto probably
2020-06-10 14:07:55 ~tiwesdaeg libressl is the openbsd fork
2020-06-10 14:08:07 ~tiwesdaeg happened back during the heartbleed thingy
2020-06-10 14:09:09 xq okay, sounds like this will work then :)
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2020-06-10 14:24:06 xq WHOOO
2020-06-10 14:24:13 xq i have just loaded gemini://gemini.conman.org/private/mondrian.gif
2020-06-10 14:30:51 mhj Yo geminars
2020-06-10 14:37:56 xq hey mhj
2020-06-10 14:41:02 jba has quit (Client exited)
2020-06-10 14:44:39 mhj yo xq
2020-06-10 14:45:05 mhj Gonna spruce up my gemini site
2020-06-10 14:47:01 xq do that!
2020-06-10 14:54:18 ~tiwesdaeg is key generation handled in the client or do you have to generate then link?
2020-06-10 14:54:35 xq i will provide both ways
2020-06-10 14:54:46 xq one for importing a key and also having built-in key generation
2020-06-10 14:54:53 xq (that's what i'm working on right now)
2020-06-10 14:55:35 xq idea for transient certs is that you click the "enable cert" button, hit a "30 minutes" button and you have a fresh, unique 30 minute long valid cert enabled
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2020-06-10 15:00:10 ~tiwesdaeg oh wow, kristall is running in Haiku
2020-06-10 15:00:14 ~tiwesdaeg that's pretty neat
2020-06-10 15:02:57 xq yes!
2020-06-10 15:05:28 ~tiwesdaeg I wonder how haiku is bare metal
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2020-06-10 19:05:57 xq hey lukee
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2020-06-10 19:09:11 @tomasino hey sexy geminauts
2020-06-10 19:09:14 @tomasino how you all doing?
2020-06-10 19:10:57 lukee I've never been chatted up like that before
2020-06-10 19:11:08 @tomasino :D
2020-06-10 19:11:52 lukee I'm preparing a point release for GemiNaut - has a few new features and bug fixes
2020-06-10 19:12:09 @tomasino oh yeah?
2020-06-10 19:12:32 @tomasino do you have a thing in it so that when it updates the first and only first time it updates it defaults to a changelog page that says what changed?
2020-06-10 19:12:33 xq hey tomasino!
2020-06-10 19:12:40 @tomasino cause i feel like that would be a sexy addition
2020-06-10 19:13:07 @tomasino hey xq
2020-06-10 19:13:09 lukee no, maybe one day
2020-06-10 19:13:15 @tomasino maybe next version
2020-06-10 19:13:16 @tomasino haha
2020-06-10 19:13:39 lukee Could have a link to the change log in the help->history menu
2020-06-10 19:13:44 lukee might be more straightforward
2020-06-10 19:13:44 xq i have something exciting to show :)
2020-06-10 19:14:23 lukee what's new xq?
2020-06-10 19:14:52 @tomasino well, i suppose a history in the help menu also makes sense, yes
2020-06-10 19:15:21 xq let me take a video
2020-06-10 19:15:31 xq tomasino: good point, i'll make that!
2020-06-10 19:18:18 xq https://mq32.de/public/kristall-04.mp4
2020-06-10 19:18:29 xq be excited about: transient certificate support!
2020-06-10 19:20:59 lukee nice
2020-06-10 19:21:33 xq yep, i think the workflow is good, too
2020-06-10 19:25:08 lukee xq: what do you think about the server providing the content-length?
2020-06-10 19:25:25 xq not sure
2020-06-10 19:25:30 @tomasino huzzah
2020-06-10 19:26:16 lukee call me a pragmatist, but I dont see the philosophical objection to this info as it cannot be used for tracking or anything nefarious like that
2020-06-10 19:26:44 tadzik it's mostly a slippery slope worry I think
2020-06-10 19:27:05 tadzik we have content-type, we add content-length, tomorrow we'll have HTTP
2020-06-10 19:27:08 lukee but not all slopes are in fact slippery
2020-06-10 19:27:13 tadzik I agree
2020-06-10 19:27:17 tadzik (hence my email :))
2020-06-10 19:28:03 tadzik I do see solderpunk's point though. Even if you disregard slippery slope, the lack of certain features implicitely encourages a certain culture
2020-06-10 19:28:45 tadzik if downloading big files sucks, there's less incentive to create servers that are about sharing big files, and that encourages a small(er) internet which is the original idea
2020-06-10 19:28:51 lukee its seems to me if we are serious about supporting low end devices and networks, we need to communicate that info
2020-06-10 19:29:00 tadzik I'm not sure if that's their intention, but that's what I'm seeing between the lines
2020-06-10 19:29:56 tadzik well there's two sides to this. With the lack of Content-Length equivalent, sharing anything >1MB is bound to be a shitty experience for the users and so people will avoid doing that
2020-06-10 19:29:57 lukee maybe we shouldnt support any other mime types than text/plain and text/gemini then
2020-06-10 19:30:08 tadzik and possibly switch to sharing magnet links, ipfs:// or whatnot
2020-06-10 19:30:30 lukee what is a magnet link?
2020-06-10 19:30:40 tadzik that's a link-ified .torrent file, basically
2020-06-10 19:31:11 xq yeah, a magnet url attracts torrents :D
2020-06-10 19:31:15 tadzik I was wondering about this recently wrt lack of POST/PUT in gemini: if you really wanted to allow the equivalent of file uploads, how would you do it?
2020-06-10 19:31:22 xq i think that's actually a pretty nice idea
2020-06-10 19:31:35 xq use gemini for browsing small-scale files and use another service to distribute the larger files
2020-06-10 19:31:35 ~tiwesdaeg super cool xq
2020-06-10 19:31:44 lukee I agree - it would be nice to be able to implement a really minimal wiki
2020-06-10 19:32:00 xq tiwesdaeg: thanks! i fixed some bugs, gonna push now. if you wanna test, i'll notify
2020-06-10 19:32:12 ~tiwesdaeg will do
2020-06-10 19:32:19 ~tiwesdaeg let me know when it's safe to pull
2020-06-10 19:38:14 xq okay, pushed
2020-06-10 19:39:43 ~tiwesdaeg pulled
2020-06-10 19:42:32 ~tiwesdaeg getting an error trying to access conman
2020-06-10 19:42:57 xq okay? what error?
2020-06-10 19:43:23 ~tiwesdaeg An error happened:
2020-06-10 19:43:25 ~tiwesdaeg Temporary Failure
2020-06-10 19:43:27 ~tiwesdaeg Temporary Error
2020-06-10 19:45:41 xq huh, weird :D
2020-06-10 19:45:46 xq so, the server tells you this error?
2020-06-10 19:45:58 xq hmmm… when you enable the certificate?
2020-06-10 19:46:25 ~tiwesdaeg nope
2020-06-10 19:46:29 ~tiwesdaeg just trying to load it
2020-06-10 19:46:35 @tomasino eh, konpeito.media was one of the first popular destinations in gemspace and it's all big content
2020-06-10 19:46:42 @tomasino you just deal
2020-06-10 19:47:36 xq hm, is it still open?
2020-06-10 19:47:41 xq can't connect with :1965
2020-06-10 19:48:24 lukee me neither
2020-06-10 19:49:48 @tomasino it's down at the moment
2020-06-10 19:49:54 @tomasino cat was having jetforce issues and then just moved
2020-06-10 19:49:55 ~tiwesdaeg cq
2020-06-10 19:49:57 ~tiwesdaeg oops
2020-06-10 19:49:58 xq tiwesdaeg, it's gemini://gemini.conman.org/
2020-06-10 19:50:01 @tomasino hasn't had time to fix it yet
2020-06-10 19:50:07 xq not gemini://gemini.conman.org
2020-06-10 19:50:21 ~tiwesdaeg can you only create transient keys?
2020-06-10 19:50:28 xq right now, yes
2020-06-10 19:50:31 ~tiwesdaeg ok
2020-06-10 19:50:36 xq they have a randomized user identity
2020-06-10 19:50:57 ~tiwesdaeg I was about to get astrobotany to work with one, but then you lose access after the key expires
2020-06-10 19:51:03 xq yeah
2020-06-10 19:51:09 ~tiwesdaeg about = able
2020-06-10 19:51:09 xq for that, you have to wait a bit
2020-06-10 19:51:29 xq the transient certificates are only stored in-memory, not on disk
2020-06-10 19:51:43 ~tiwesdaeg yep the / did it
2020-06-10 19:51:54 ~tiwesdaeg solderpunk's link isn't correct
2020-06-10 19:56:20 xq really looking forward on creating my astrobotany account :D
2020-06-10 19:57:09 xq how do you like the interface for certificate selection?
2020-06-10 19:57:36 xq the empty area on the upper side is planned to list all your certificates in a single-level folder structure
2020-06-10 19:57:54 xq so you have something like /games/astrobotany
2020-06-10 20:00:51 wgreenhouse oof, I guess I can't try cool gemini games requiring authentication from emacs yet. just checked elpher's issues list and found - [ ] gemini transactions requiring client certificates
2020-06-10 20:02:47 ~tiwesdaeg I figured as much
2020-06-10 20:03:59 lukee gemini://gemini.conman.org already redirects to gemini://gemini.conman.org/
2020-06-10 20:05:14 ~tiwesdaeg not sure what is going on then
2020-06-10 20:05:45 ~tiwesdaeg it's not redirecting in kristall
2020-06-10 20:06:14 xq it does not
2020-06-10 20:06:28 xq openssl s_client says "no redirection"
2020-06-10 20:06:29 xq gemini://gemini.conman.org
2020-06-10 20:06:29 xq 40 Temporary Error
2020-06-10 20:12:59 lukee Ok maybe it is a client behaviour - I'm using gemget. maybe it does it itself as a reasonable assumption
2020-06-10 20:14:26 ▬▬▶ kensanata has joined #gemini
2020-06-10 20:15:04 kensanata 🚀❕❕
2020-06-10 20:15:36 kensanata I'm writing tests for my Gemini server and oh my there is a lot to fix.
2020-06-10 20:16:52 xq hey kensanata
2020-06-10 20:17:06 xq dd if=/dev/urandom | openssl s_client -connect kensata.server:1965
2020-06-10 20:17:07 xq :D
2020-06-10 20:17:26 kensanata Ultimate fuzzing!
2020-06-10 20:25:09 xq lol
2020-06-10 20:25:18 xq i may have done goofed the client name generation :D
2020-06-10 20:25:24 xq tiwesdaeg, we have the same plant!
2020-06-10 20:25:52 ~tiwesdaeg mine will die after I can't water it anymore after 48 hours
2020-06-10 20:26:46 xq but i can water yours!
2020-06-10 20:27:00 xq ║ 1. sg4zMSeUVJE │ 1 minutes ago ║
2020-06-10 20:27:01 xq ║ 2. sg4zMSeUVJE │ 32 minutes ago ║
2020-06-10 20:27:01 xq ║ 3. sg4zMSeUVJE │ 38 minutes ago ║
2020-06-10 20:27:02 xq :D
2020-06-10 20:27:10 xq the rng is … bad for the name generation :D
2020-06-10 20:27:30 ~tiwesdaeg we have the same temp cert?
2020-06-10 20:29:36 xq no, but the same name
2020-06-10 20:32:27 @tomasino ohnoes
2020-06-10 20:33:27 xq i think i have to seed the RNG :D
2020-06-10 20:43:41 kensanata I always look at the plant right above it and water it as well.
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2020-06-10 22:05:36 styan xq: If you are adding `PREFIX' to your Makefile, you should add `DESTDIR' before it. ``${DESTDIR}${PREFIX}/bin''
2020-06-10 22:07:12 @tomasino why destdir, styan?
2020-06-10 22:07:53 styan It helps with stanging in ports.
2020-06-10 22:08:01 styan s/stanging/staging/
2020-06-10 22:08:02 @tomasino ahh, ports has naming conventions?
2020-06-10 22:08:05 @tomasino okay
2020-06-10 22:08:44 styan No, it is a common convention, possibly originally from autotools
2020-06-10 22:08:55 @tomasino i see
2020-06-10 22:09:04 @tomasino i provided the prefix bit to him, but i don't package or use autotools
2020-06-10 22:09:17 @tomasino so if it's headed for packages it would be helpful to have those things aligned
2020-06-10 22:09:25 @tomasino maybe you can tweak it and send xq a diff
2020-06-10 22:11:47 styan xq: https://ttm.sh/QWQ.txt
2020-06-10 22:12:38 styan tomasino: `pb' is your tool, right?
2020-06-10 22:13:24 styan It does not print a usage message when you give it an invalid option. ``pb -?''
2020-06-10 22:13:57 @tomasino it is indeed
2020-06-10 22:14:31 @tomasino no, but i have -h
2020-06-10 22:14:35 @tomasino do you use -? a lot?
2020-06-10 22:14:47 styan It is the first thing I do if there is no man-page.
2020-06-10 22:15:06 styan It almost always prints the usage message.
2020-06-10 22:15:33 @tomasino i'll add it
2020-06-10 22:15:35 @tomasino standby
2020-06-10 22:15:35 styan While some tools use `-h' for other things.
2020-06-10 22:16:32 styan tomasino: Cool :-)
2020-06-10 22:17:02 @tomasino just gotta figure out how to allow a literal ? in getopt
2020-06-10 22:17:25 styan Oh, getopt, I have never used that one.
2020-06-10 22:17:50 @tomasino it's ... troublesome
2020-06-10 22:17:54 @tomasino but highly portable
2020-06-10 22:18:11 styan Is there a platform without getopts(1)?
2020-06-10 22:18:30 @tomasino yeah
2020-06-10 22:19:27 @tomasino specifically there's some old shells that don't
2020-06-10 22:22:32 @ben i've never seen -? before
2020-06-10 22:22:38 @ben /? on windows
2020-06-10 22:22:49 @ben but it's always -h or --help
2020-06-10 22:23:11 styan getopt(3) and getopts(3) return '?' when an invalid option is encountered.
2020-06-10 22:23:20 @ben ls: invalid option -- '?'
2020-06-10 22:23:26 styan So it forces them to handle the case of an invalid option.
2020-06-10 22:23:35 styan Which normally prints the usage.
2020-06-10 22:23:58 @ben all of the ones i just tried say invalid option and tell you to use --help instead...
2020-06-10 22:24:19 @tomasino and i'm not using gnu getopt, so i don't even have long-opts available
2020-06-10 22:24:37 @tomasino if i used getopts i would, but then it breaks on old ass machines, which at least one person on the tildeverse is doing
2020-06-10 22:24:41 @ben what tools use -? ?
2020-06-10 22:24:46 @ben i can't find any that support it
2020-06-10 22:24:58 @ben i'm curious now cause this is the first time i've heard of that
2020-06-10 22:24:59 @tomasino ffmpeg does
2020-06-10 22:25:08 @tomasino but not cat
2020-06-10 22:25:14 styan Pretty much everything on BSDs
2020-06-10 22:25:18 @ben fish shell doesn't even let me use that command
2020-06-10 22:25:21 @tomasino gnu sed supports -?
2020-06-10 22:25:26 styan cat: illegal option -- ?
2020-06-10 22:25:26 styan usage: cat [-belnstuv] [file ...]
2020-06-10 22:25:29 @tomasino bsd sed does not
2020-06-10 22:25:44 @ben i just get Try 'cat --help' for more information.
2020-06-10 22:25:55 @tomasino fish is helping you out, sounds like
2020-06-10 22:25:58 @ben on bsd i get "fish: No matches for wildcard '-?'. See `help expand`."
2020-06-10 22:26:09 @ben and linux too
2020-06-10 22:26:21 @tomasino sed: unknown option -- ?
2020-06-10 22:26:21 @tomasino usage: sed [-aEnru] [-i[extension]] command [file ...]
2020-06-10 22:26:21 @tomasino sed [-aEnru] [-e command] [-f command_file] [-i[extension]] [file ...]
2020-06-10 22:26:42 styan ^ That
2020-06-10 22:26:44 @ben ah well it tells you unknown uption
2020-06-10 22:27:27 styan That is exactly what I use it to do, give a gurenteed invalid option. :-)
2020-06-10 22:27:40 @tomasino lemme see what i can do then
2020-06-10 22:27:49 @tomasino i can at least parse that it's an invalid opt and do something
2020-06-10 22:28:13 @ben invalid opt should print usage
2020-06-10 22:29:08 @tomasino yeah, i'm on it
2020-06-10 22:29:09 styan On a tangent, getopts(1) is in the oldest POSIX version I have a link to: https://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/007908799/xcu/getopts.html
2020-06-10 22:29:25 @tomasino getopt(1) uses getopt(3) which allows you to use the first character as a : to suppress error messages but still return an error code
2020-06-10 22:29:30 @tomasino i'll use that to trigger a usage message
2020-06-10 22:30:43 styan Everything else just prints "illegal option" or something similar, if you do not want to bother with that.
2020-06-10 22:38:57 @tomasino okay
2020-06-10 22:39:01 @tomasino it's updated
2020-06-10 22:39:04 styan tomasino: Would you like a man-page for pb(1)?
2020-06-10 22:39:11 @tomasino there is already a manpage
2020-06-10 22:39:15 @tomasino man pb
2020-06-10 22:39:26 @tomasino it's quite extensive
2020-06-10 22:39:32 styan man: No entry for pb in the manual.
2020-06-10 22:39:37 styan Not on tilde.black.
2020-06-10 22:39:47 @tomasino oh, openbsd manpaths are different
2020-06-10 22:39:49 @tomasino uno momento
2020-06-10 22:40:26 @tomasino yeah, this makefile doesn't work in openbsd at all
2020-06-10 22:40:32 @tomasino i'll just manually copy stuff
2020-06-10 22:41:18 @tomasino there you go
2020-06-10 22:41:45 @tomasino black is updated and the man page is in place
2020-06-10 22:41:51 styan Thank you very much. :-)
2020-06-10 22:41:58 @tomasino i need to gut that manpage and build it up again
2020-06-10 22:42:03 @tomasino er, makefile i mean
2020-06-10 22:42:06 @tomasino the manpage is great
2020-06-10 22:42:54 styan The manpage is, indeed, great.
2020-06-10 22:43:05 styan I have not seen STANDARDS used like that before.
2020-06-10 22:43:15 @tomasino :D i based it off the openbsd pages
2020-06-10 22:43:58 @tomasino man cat and check out STANDARDS
2020-06-10 22:44:28 styan cat(1) is part of the POSIX standard though.
2020-06-10 22:45:48 @tomasino hrm, maybe i shouldn't have that in there then
2020-06-10 22:45:49 @tomasino hehe
2020-06-10 22:46:56 styan You could just say that you are hoping pb(1) will become standard :-)
2020-06-10 22:49:01 @tomasino eh, removed it
2020-06-10 22:49:23 @tomasino i was thinking it was saying it was posix compatible aka portible, but i should just avoid the posix language. it's a minefield
2020-06-10 22:49:37 @tomasino it means a specific thing and not the thing i always think it means
2020-06-10 22:59:29 styan Reading pb.1 made me realize that I never remembered do add EXIT STATUS to anything.
2020-06-10 23:00:58 @tomasino hah
2020-06-10 23:01:13 @tomasino it's a really simple utility at the heart, but it was good practice for writing good documentation
2020-06-10 23:04:41 styan Oh, all of this shell stuff reminds me that I wrote a gemini to html converter the other day: https://tildegit.org/styan/misc-scripts/src/branch/master/gmi2html.sh
2020-06-10 23:05:29 @tomasino very nice!
2020-06-10 23:05:37 @tomasino reminds me of my gopher2gemini awk script
2020-06-10 23:05:43 styan I am fairly sure that I just wrote it because someone on here mentioned something vaguely similar and I thought it would be fun.
2020-06-10 23:05:54 @tomasino can't go wrong with that
2020-06-11 00:08:32 xq *yiss*
2020-06-11 00:08:41 xq i have now support for persistent certificates as well
2020-06-11 00:11:49 xq i really love how astrobotany is auto-themed green :D
2020-06-11 00:49:35 xq for those of you who want to play astrobotany: Kristall now has support for persistent certificates
2020-06-11 00:52:33 styan "astrobotany" sounds cooler than the sum of its parts. It is a fun word.
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2020-06-11 06:45:48 epoch how about domains in the requests that have a trailing . in them?
2020-06-11 06:46:05 epoch like, gemini://gemini.thebackupbox.net./ ?
2020-06-11 06:46:10 epoch are servers handling those properly?
2020-06-11 06:46:44 epoch mine isn't even looking at the hostname or scheme portions of the request so you could put whatever you wanted.
2020-06-11 06:55:03 styan I know Jetforce checks the hostname by default.
2020-06-11 06:56:15 styan It makes connecting to gemini://tilde.black/ over Tor obnoxious for clients that do not support proxying.
2020-06-11 06:57:46 styan s/obnoxious/impossible/
2020-06-11 06:57:57 epoch oh yeah, I broke my gemini over onion stuff.
2020-06-11 06:58:04 styan It is obnoxious for clients that support proxying.
2020-06-11 07:01:12 ⚡ epoch adds onion.thebackupbox.net to gemini cert
2020-06-11 07:02:54 epoch hrm.
2020-06-11 07:03:05 epoch probably going to use gemini.onion.thebackupbox.net
2020-06-11 07:03:32 epoch A record it to the letsencrypt responder, then CNAME it to the onion
2020-06-11 07:04:13 epoch then people can connect to the hidden service using a real hostname if they want to
2020-06-11 07:18:15 ℹ epoch is now known as `epochbot
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2020-06-11 10:14:24 xq hey people
2020-06-11 10:14:47 @tomasino hay people
2020-06-11 10:14:52 @tomasino aka horses
2020-06-11 10:19:09 xq astrobotany has awoken an itch in me…
2020-06-11 10:19:24 xq i wanted to do a "browser game" for a long time now …
2020-06-11 10:19:35 xq maybe gemspace is the right place to get started
2020-06-11 10:28:50 xq > Your plant was recently watered by tiwesdaeg.
2020-06-11 10:28:51 xq thanks!
2020-06-11 10:32:54 @tomasino astrobotany is pretty cool
2020-06-11 10:33:26 @tomasino so, what do i have to do to do that sort of thing?
2020-06-11 10:33:32 @tomasino lets say with kristall
2020-06-11 10:34:27 xq to play astrobotany?
2020-06-11 10:34:30 @tomasino xq:../src/certificateselectiondialog.cpp:66:10: fatal error: QRandomGenerator: No such file or directory
2020-06-11 10:34:35 @tomasino on the latest source
2020-06-11 10:34:46 @tomasino yeah. i need to do some sort of cert thingy, right?
2020-06-11 10:34:56 xq yeah
2020-06-11 10:35:12 xq just open gemini://astrobotany.mozz.us, click "get to gardening" and create a new persistent certificate :)
2020-06-11 10:35:24 xq what's your qt version?
2020-06-11 10:35:32 xq it's there since Qt 5.10
2020-06-11 10:35:53 @tomasino lemme see
2020-06-11 10:36:04 @tomasino okay, how do i see
2020-06-11 10:36:05 @tomasino :D
2020-06-11 10:36:50 xq do you have qtdiag available?
2020-06-11 10:37:00 styan `qmake -v'?
2020-06-11 10:37:28 xq yeah that may also help
2020-06-11 10:37:58 @tomasino 5.9.5
2020-06-11 10:38:03 @tomasino qtdiag worked
2020-06-11 10:39:02 xq hm, okay
2020-06-11 10:39:07 xq lemme do a workaround
2020-06-11 10:39:23 xq need to touch that place anyways
2020-06-11 10:39:34 @tomasino "create a new persistent certificate" this is the part i have no idea how to do
2020-06-11 10:40:04 @tomasino it would be a good subject of a gemlog for someone. :D
2020-06-11 10:40:13 @tomasino i'd also like to cover it in my video i'm going to record soon
2020-06-11 10:41:29 @tomasino updating my notes to reflect that
2020-06-11 10:41:31 @tomasino :D
2020-06-11 10:41:55 xq tomasino: trust me, you'll see!
2020-06-11 10:41:59 xq it's 100% user friendly
2020-06-11 10:43:22 xq try again, removed the dep on QRandomGenerator
2020-06-11 10:44:15 @tomasino kk
2020-06-11 10:45:25 @tomasino compiles, though you're starting to get warnings
2020-06-11 10:45:26 @tomasino ../src/gopherclient.cpp: In member function ‘void GopherClient::on_readRead()’:
2020-06-11 10:45:26 @tomasino ../src/gopherclient.cpp:72:12: warning: init-statement in selection statements only available with -std=c++1z or -std=gnu++1z
2020-06-11 10:45:45 styan xq: I just tried updating Kristal, and it crashed when I started it.
2020-06-11 10:46:24 styan xq: https://ttm.sh/QWC.txt
2020-06-11 10:46:41 xq ah damn. that's nothing i can remote-debug :(
2020-06-11 10:47:20 @tomasino looks like the next message on startup would normally be....
2020-06-11 10:47:21 @tomasino QMetaObject::connectSlotsByName: No matching signal for on_focus_inputbar()
2020-06-11 10:47:21 @tomasino QMetaObject::connectSlotsByName: No matching signal for on_media_positionChanged(qlonglong)
2020-06-11 10:47:39 @tomasino anywho, kristall running here and looks great. I like the mime-type in teh footer
2020-06-11 10:47:58 @tomasino enable client certificate in this tab
2020-06-11 10:47:59 @tomasino oooh
2020-06-11 10:48:00 xq those messages are okay, it's probably something i fucked up, but doesn't hurt
2020-06-11 10:48:32 xq tomasino: do you see now what i mean by "just create a permanent client certificate?"
2020-06-11 10:48:32 xq :D
2020-06-11 10:49:00 xq styan: what OS are you on?
2020-06-11 10:49:08 xq maybe i need another VM…
2020-06-11 10:49:44 @tomasino oooh
2020-06-11 10:49:45 @tomasino yeah
2020-06-11 10:49:48 @tomasino this is pretty
2020-06-11 10:50:54 @tomasino hrm, how to i make it permanent?
2020-06-11 10:50:59 @tomasino there's expiration dates on everything
2020-06-11 10:51:34 xq yes, certificates require expiration dates
2020-06-11 10:51:43 xq jut set expiration to like 5 years or so
2020-06-11 10:51:52 @tomasino or.... 2090
2020-06-11 10:51:53 @tomasino got it
2020-06-11 10:51:57 @tomasino :D
2020-06-11 10:52:00 xq yeah :D
2020-06-11 10:52:09 styan xq: It was just QT not supporting LibreSSL, but still linking to it.
2020-06-11 10:52:10 @tomasino if i make it to 110 years old, that'll be a problem for future me
2020-06-11 10:52:55 xq yeah i had the fear that this may happen :(
2020-06-11 10:54:30 @tomasino where/how are the certificates stored?
2020-06-11 10:54:45 @tomasino would i be able to use the same one betwe different clients?
2020-06-11 10:55:13 @tomasino also, holy crap... astrobotony is awesome
2020-06-11 10:55:14 xq not right now
2020-06-11 10:55:19 xq i embed them in the settings file
2020-06-11 10:55:25 xq (like everything else)
2020-06-11 10:55:30 @tomasino gotcha
2020-06-11 10:55:39 xq but i want to provide means to import/export PEM and DER key-certificates-pairs :)
2020-06-11 10:56:27 xq btw, if any of you uses a cool color scheme, share them!
2020-06-11 10:56:27 xq :)
2020-06-11 10:56:32 @tomasino yeah, i see that ab has ansi color support, so i was gonna check it in av98
2020-06-11 10:56:33 xq it's now possible to export color schemes
2020-06-11 10:56:48 xq ansi color support would be … interesting in Kristall
2020-06-11 10:56:56 xq have to parse the whole color coding stuff in the document :D
2020-06-11 10:59:49 @tomasino https://ttm.sh/QWR.kthm
2020-06-11 11:00:10 @tomasino oh yeah, i wouldn't expect it to work in kristall
2020-06-11 11:01:19 xq i'm thinking about support for it though… :D
2020-06-11 11:01:51 @tomasino well that'd be stellar if you can pick out color codes that way
2020-06-11 11:01:59 xq also i think about recognizing kthm files and instead of serving them flat as text/plain i provide a preview and means to import/use the theme directly
2020-06-11 11:02:53 xq also: nice theme!
2020-06-11 11:03:20 styan xq: As you might have guessed https://ttm.sh/QW1.kthm
2020-06-11 11:04:28 xq i would include both schemes in the preset folder in the repo if you're okay with this :)
2020-06-11 11:08:20 styan Importing presets is not working for me.
2020-06-11 11:08:24 @tomasino i'm going to town on your makefile
2020-06-11 11:08:35 @tomasino should have support for an icon for you in a sec
2020-06-11 11:08:53 @tomasino do you have one made?
2020-06-11 11:09:46 @tomasino i'm using Castor's makefile for reference. looks like he's got all the proper vars in here and is addressing all the same needs
2020-06-11 11:10:30 xq tomasino: there's an icon in src/icons/kristall.svg
2020-06-11 11:10:53 xq styan: you sure? the import is a bit clunky atm, it does only import the preset into the list, you have to manually load it afterwards
2020-06-11 11:10:58 xq probably going to change this
2020-06-11 11:12:01 @tomasino awesome
2020-06-11 11:12:16 @tomasino what's your development domain xq?
2020-06-11 11:12:28 @tomasino icons installed have a reverse domain convention
2020-06-11 11:13:04 xq i'm a full stack developer by day and a crazy scientist by night :D
2020-06-11 11:13:12 styan Oh, there is a load preset button.
2020-06-11 11:13:25 @tomasino this is really, really friendly, xq
2020-06-11 11:13:50 xq doing a lot of hobby coding in embedded/low level stuff including my own computer/isa
2020-06-11 11:14:27 xq tomasino: wdym? :)
2020-06-11 11:14:34 @tomasino de.masterq32.kristall
2020-06-11 11:14:37 @tomasino or something
2020-06-11 11:14:41 @tomasino not sure which one you want to use
2020-06-11 11:14:43 xq oh, i misunderstood the question :D
2020-06-11 11:15:01 xq go for net.random-projects.kristall
2020-06-11 11:15:04 @tomasino kk
2020-06-11 11:19:05 @tomasino gonna actually PR this one
2020-06-11 11:21:58 styan xq: Sure you can use that theme for a default (I highly doubt that two bits could be considered "artistic expression" or anything like that), maybe you can call it something cooler like "Inverse Monochrome", or "VT100" :-)
2020-06-11 11:23:08 xq well it's definitly no VT-100, the font is too thin! :D
2020-06-11 11:25:30 @tomasino got it working
2020-06-11 11:25:50 xq 👍
2020-06-11 11:26:43 @tomasino okay, PR sent
2020-06-11 11:28:59 xq isn't ?= the variant you want to use when not overriding a existing var?
2020-06-11 11:30:20 @tomasino it is indeed
2020-06-11 11:30:32 @tomasino i copied castors and didn't even notice he wasn't ?= ing
2020-06-11 11:30:41 @tomasino would make it awfully hard to override
2020-06-11 11:30:48 @tomasino one sec
2020-06-11 11:30:49 @tomasino i'll fix it
2020-06-11 11:30:52 styan `make var=value' overrides even plain `='s
2020-06-11 11:31:16 xq ah, good to know :)
2020-06-11 11:31:34 styan It is a useful trick :-)
2020-06-11 11:31:40 @tomasino interesting
2020-06-11 11:31:45 @tomasino i thought that's what ?= was for
2020-06-11 11:32:06 styan `?=' will not overwrite environment variables.
2020-06-11 11:32:22 @tomasino only if not set
2020-06-11 11:32:24 @tomasino gotcha
2020-06-11 11:32:26 @tomasino okay
2020-06-11 11:32:28 styan Which are often used for packaging, and the like.
2020-06-11 11:32:31 @tomasino so this is fine as is,then
2020-06-11 11:33:15 styan Yep, you can just add the definitien to MAKEFLAGES.
2020-06-11 11:33:27 styan s/FLAGES/FLAGS/
2020-06-11 11:35:07 xq looks good then, hitting merge :)
2020-06-11 11:36:57 xq how can i change file names depending on the OS?
2020-06-11 11:37:10 xq MacOS X needs .app as a suffix, Windows needs .exe
2020-06-11 11:37:45 @tomasino doesn't the app need to be a folder in a certain structure?
2020-06-11 11:38:09 styan ^ Yes.
2020-06-11 11:38:48 @tomasino if you want, you can create specific targets for each one and use some logic to determine which to run like so: https://github.com/jamestomasino/dotfiles/blob/master/Makefile#L6-L24
2020-06-11 11:38:58 styan And Windows would not run a Makefile anyway.
2020-06-11 11:39:05 @tomasino and there's that
2020-06-11 11:39:06 @tomasino :)
2020-06-11 11:39:06 styan bat vs sh
2020-06-11 11:40:19 @tomasino that makefile example above is an old one and doesn't account for BSDs
2020-06-11 11:40:26 @tomasino but you can get the basic idea from it
2020-06-11 11:41:18 styan Also, it is a GNUMakefile, to be pedantic. :-)
2020-06-11 11:42:07 @tomasino it is indeed
2020-06-11 11:42:14 styan Every time I see complex Makefiles I just want to rewrite them in mk(1)...
2020-06-11 11:42:24 styan mk is cool
2020-06-11 11:42:56 @tomasino https://github.com/jamestomasino/ts-boilerplate/blob/master/Makefile
2020-06-11 11:43:39 @tomasino complex makefile for great justice
2020-06-11 11:55:23 @tomasino ugh, Petite Abeille again
2020-06-11 12:29:14 styan tomasino: Your makefile would look something like this in mk: https://ttm.sh/QWk.mk
2020-06-11 12:29:46 styan Caveat, mk does not support spaces in file-names at all.
2020-06-11 12:31:32 @tomasino not bad
2020-06-11 12:31:40 @tomasino it's quite readable
2020-06-11 12:32:44 styan mk is interesting in that it lets the shell handle all of the programming bits, and it just handles the dependency tree and calling the shell.
2020-06-11 12:35:49 @tomasino that's handy
2020-06-11 12:35:57 @tomasino the shell is solid at that stuff already
2020-06-11 12:44:40 ▬▬▶ thombles has joined #gemini
2020-06-11 12:45:35 thombles evening fellow astronauts
2020-06-11 12:45:53 xq hey thombles
2020-06-11 12:46:04 @tomasino yo
2020-06-11 12:46:38 ~tiwesdaeg morning all
2020-06-11 12:49:25 ~tiwesdaeg windows and macos are probably best distributed as binaries
2020-06-11 12:51:43 xq yeah, true
2020-06-11 12:52:01 xq i should set up github CI to do nightly builds of the windows/macos version
2020-06-11 12:53:10 thombles github actions for win/mac is great
2020-06-11 12:53:37 ~tiwesdaeg you can have github do the compilation?
2020-06-11 12:54:07 thombles Yeah they have VMs hosting visual studio and Xcode, free up to a runtime limit
2020-06-11 12:54:37 thombles New thing since MS took over - I assume it's all running on azure
2020-06-11 12:54:54 xq yeah, probably
2020-06-11 12:55:05 xq thombles, do you have experience using github CI with qt?
2020-06-11 12:55:37 thombles Not qt specifically. But generally speaking you have admin access and at least on linux I was able to apt-get whatever deps I needed before doing my buidl
2020-06-11 12:55:41 ~tiwesdaeg that's really handy
2020-06-11 12:56:23 ~tiwesdaeg xq: I've been using your auto-theming as default
2020-06-11 12:56:29 ~tiwesdaeg I really like how it's working out
2020-06-11 12:56:46 xq thanks
2020-06-11 12:56:58 xq i really like that some stuff is fitting
2020-06-11 12:57:02 xq like astrobotany is green :D
2020-06-11 12:57:20 ~tiwesdaeg mine is green too
2020-06-11 12:57:35 ~tiwesdaeg is it random?
2020-06-11 12:57:47 thombles I haven't seen a colourisation scheme like that since I was using IRC in xchat... maybe 10 years ago
2020-06-11 12:58:00 thombles It adds so much character so easily, it's great
2020-06-11 12:59:19 ~tiwesdaeg compiling kristall on this old core 2 duo vs my ryzen desktop at home
2020-06-11 12:59:22 xq tiwesdaeg: kinda. i hash the domain name and use that for color/saturation generation
2020-06-11 12:59:45 ⚡ tiwesdaeg waits
2020-06-11 12:59:55 xq i'm going to try building Kristall for Android…
2020-06-11 13:00:07 ~tiwesdaeg so, everyone should have the same experience on each instance
2020-06-11 13:00:13 xq yes
2020-06-11 13:00:13 ~tiwesdaeg please!
2020-06-11 13:00:19 xq if that works, i'll add an improved mobile interface
2020-06-11 13:00:31 xq for both linux and android
2020-06-11 13:00:42 xq → pinephone users get first-class mobile experience browser :D
2020-06-11 13:01:05 ~tiwesdaeg I wouldn't mind a pinephone
2020-06-11 13:01:12 xq me neither
2020-06-11 13:01:13 xq :D
2020-06-11 13:01:19 xq i'm really tempted to get one
2020-06-11 13:01:20 ~tiwesdaeg I'm tempted to order a pinebook pro
2020-06-11 13:01:35 xq but i think i'll wait some months still, got a new phone in november
2020-06-11 13:02:15 ~tiwesdaeg I've been on my nexus 5x for over 4 years
2020-06-11 13:02:45 ~tiwesdaeg my wife's died of the bootloop issue that plagues all the nexus 5x's
2020-06-11 13:02:50 xq yeah i try to keep my phone as long as possible
2020-06-11 13:02:52 ~tiwesdaeg mine just won't die
2020-06-11 13:02:57 xq last phone held 7 years :D
2020-06-11 13:11:43 thombles those pinebook pros are reviewing very well for the price
2020-06-11 13:19:47 wgreenhouse thombles: if you try one, report back
2020-06-11 13:19:57 wgreenhouse I have a vow not to early-adopt crowdfunded hardware
2020-06-11 13:20:34 thombles not likely in the short term, I'm in the market for a cheap linux laptop for CTFing but until conferences are happening I'm holding off
2020-06-11 13:20:49 thombles there were a couple of detailed reviews on lobsters in recent weeks though
2020-06-11 13:21:34 xq i can not-recommend the TERES I as a cheap ARM machine
2020-06-11 13:21:48 thombles good to know lol
2020-06-11 13:22:07 thombles what was the key disappointment?
2020-06-11 13:22:14 xq idea is good, but 2 Gigs of RAM and a unusable touch pad
2020-06-11 13:22:18 xq also sound is janky
2020-06-11 13:22:52 xq it's self-assembly, but that shouldn't be a problem
2020-06-11 13:23:15 thombles hmm yeah that's not enough ram unless you're seriously invested in gemini
2020-06-11 13:23:22 xq hehe
2020-06-11 13:23:31 xq it could be used as a perfect gemini browsing machine :D
2020-06-11 13:23:39 xq but compiling qt may be a pain already
2020-06-11 13:23:40 wgreenhouse I can similarly disrecommend the v1 pi-top
2020-06-11 13:23:45 wgreenhouse power management stuff is janky
2020-06-11 13:24:03 wgreenhouse ended up somehow bricking the battery control board, and that pi3b is now hooked up to a motorola lapdock
2020-06-11 13:25:58 thombles I can put up with how slow pis are (and the pi4 is not that bad tbh) but the SD storage is just no good for general use
2020-06-11 13:26:24 xq yeah
2020-06-11 13:26:58 thombles I am ignorant, is there a machine filling the gap somewhere between a Pi4 and a NUC that will let me use real storage?
2020-06-11 13:27:58 xq there is the rockpi which provides a M.2 slot
2020-06-11 13:28:10 xq i have one and i'm unhappy because of software support
2020-06-11 13:28:22 thombles ooh never heard of it
2020-06-11 13:28:41 thombles what sort of support problems?
2020-06-11 13:35:06 xq i couldn't find a stripped-down distro
2020-06-11 13:35:06 xq https://wiki.radxa.com/Rockpi4/downloads
2020-06-11 13:35:13 xq these are all prebuilt without much documentation :(
2020-06-11 13:36:01 xq i wasn't very happy with it, but i hadn't really a use case
2020-06-11 13:36:12 xq my 2 pis are doing their job well
2020-06-11 13:36:51 thombles hmm I see
2020-06-11 13:42:31 ~tiwesdaeg pine64 has some board with RK3399's as wel
2020-06-11 13:47:10 @tomasino jetforce on ~black updated to 0.4.0
2020-06-11 13:48:13 @tomasino and cosmic too
2020-06-11 14:19:52 ~tiwesdaeg I wonder if gemserv has any updates
2020-06-11 14:36:14 xq i think it had some the last days fixing bugs with spaces in file names :D
2020-06-11 14:38:50 xq my laptop is burning
2020-06-11 14:39:48 ~tiwesdaeg too much compiling?
2020-06-11 14:42:49 xq yep
2020-06-11 14:42:56 xq qt5 for android aarch64 and arm
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2020-06-11 15:25:26 ~tiwesdaeg nice
2020-06-11 15:25:39 ~tiwesdaeg time for a production machine
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2020-06-11 15:52:42 xq okay, no Qt/Android for me…
2020-06-11 15:52:47 xq my system is too new
2020-06-11 15:57:39 ℹ lickthecheese is now known as lick|archbtw
2020-06-11 16:03:40 ~tiwesdaeg xq: are the tools al old?
2020-06-11 16:03:54 ~tiwesdaeg man, typing is poor today
2020-06-11 16:04:25 xq dunno, openjdk complains that java 6 is not supported anymore and i should use java7
2020-06-11 16:04:27 xq or something
2020-06-11 16:06:15 xq i tried using NDK once before and it didn't work out as well
2020-06-11 16:06:19 xq it's a horrible mess
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2020-06-11 16:11:54 ~tiwesdaeg hmmm
2020-06-11 16:12:29 ~tiwesdaeg any other options to move forward?
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2020-06-11 16:13:49 xq good question
2020-06-11 16:13:58 xq i'll may check out if there's a docker image or something
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2020-06-11 17:00:44 acdw i have spent way too much time working on url munging
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2020-06-11 17:03:31 kensanata 🚀
2020-06-11 17:03:42 kensanata ☁☁☁
2020-06-11 17:07:54 kensanata On a scale from 0 to 1, where do you see text/html pages on Gemini?
2020-06-11 17:08:34 @tomasino √-1
2020-06-11 17:08:37 xq 0.5 ?
2020-06-11 17:09:05 kensanata Heh.
2020-06-11 17:10:23 ~tiwesdaeg C
2020-06-11 17:10:26 kensanata I'm dreaming of the day where I just switch off the HTML interface to my wiki and it'll be 100% Gemini, haha
2020-06-11 17:10:57 kensanata I wonder if anybody would install a Gemini-Wiki.
2020-06-11 17:10:57 ~tiwesdaeg I was thinking about the wiki concept on gemini this morning
2020-06-11 17:11:14 kensanata Do tell!
2020-06-11 17:11:14 ~tiwesdaeg how to do submissions
2020-06-11 17:11:36 ~tiwesdaeg maybe a system where you sends diffs via email
2020-06-11 17:11:51 kensanata tiwesdaeg: Becaus you need somebody to review them?
2020-06-11 17:12:00 ~tiwesdaeg no, just to apply them
2020-06-11 17:12:12 ~tiwesdaeg since you can only send single lines from clients
2020-06-11 17:12:17 kensanata tiwesdaeg: You don't like the option to simply add upload capabilities?
2020-06-11 17:12:46 ~tiwesdaeg People have created guestbooks so far
2020-06-11 17:12:56 ~tiwesdaeg and some "like" options
2020-06-11 17:13:00 kensanata I have a client and a server that work together and have edited my wiki using it.
2020-06-11 17:13:13 ~tiwesdaeg but what if you have a complex page, like a wikipedia article on a specific plant species
2020-06-11 17:13:19 kensanata Sure.
2020-06-11 17:13:24 kensanata One-liners won't do.
2020-06-11 17:13:49 ~tiwesdaeg how do the edits work?
2020-06-11 17:14:00 kensanata Using an extension to the protocol.
2020-06-11 17:14:56 xq oh, server is a good trigger for me…
2020-06-11 17:15:09 xq next up: write the antipiece to Kristall for fancy server stuff :D
2020-06-11 17:15:10 kensanata Basically you send an URL with the gemini+write scheme, e.g. gemini+write://alexschroeder.ch/raw/Test \n hello \n text/plain \n 10 \n ten bytes!
2020-06-11 17:15:12 ~tiwesdaeg what does the process look like from a user perspective
2020-06-11 17:15:50 xq kensanata: that's actually a goof idea to use a different protocol for uploads
2020-06-11 17:15:53 xq *good
2020-06-11 17:16:00 kensanata tiwesdaeg: In my client, I visit the "Raw page" link at the bottom of a Gemini page, then I press "e" to edit the plain text, then C-c C-c to save it, and I'm redirected back to the Gemini page.
2020-06-11 17:16:13 kensanata xq: baschdel actually suggested it
2020-06-11 17:16:43 kensanata And baschdel has a different suggestion for doing it (and wrote a proposal).
2020-06-11 17:16:50 xq oh, can you link that?
2020-06-11 17:16:59 xq i would love to see an upload option for files without http
2020-06-11 17:17:05 ~tiwesdaeg that's prett neat
2020-06-11 17:17:35 kensanata My proposal is described here: gemini://alexschroeder.ch/2020-06-05_Gemini_Write and it includes examples for posting from the command line.
2020-06-11 17:17:37 ~tiwesdaeg this falls outside the spec then?
2020-06-11 17:17:45 kensanata Totally, yes.
2020-06-11 17:18:17 kensanata My proposal just falls outside the spec when it comes to the single upload capability. Baschdel's proposal is a bit more involved.
2020-06-11 17:18:27 acdw you ... *could* (??) ... do edits with an 'ed' type interface using only status 10 ??
2020-06-11 17:18:31 ~tiwesdaeg That's probably why I was stuck on using something like email for uploads
2020-06-11 17:18:45 kensanata Baschdel's proposal is here: gemini://alexschroeder.ch/Baschdels_spin_on_Gemini_uploading
2020-06-11 17:19:04 kensanata acdw: Hehehe, yes... you could...
2020-06-11 17:19:31 kensanata How does one make a nice short video on a Linux laptop?
2020-06-11 17:20:37 kensanata Hm. I see there's "Deepin Screen Recorder".
2020-06-11 17:20:46 acdw :P
2020-06-11 17:20:56 acdw I've never recorded my screen, sadly
2020-06-11 17:20:57 ~tiwesdaeg I've used kdenlive for editing
2020-06-11 17:21:12 ~tiwesdaeg never recorded the screen though
2020-06-11 17:21:29 ~tiwesdaeg xq has
2020-06-11 17:21:38 kensanata Sometimes I don't understand software people. "SimpleScreenRecorder is a feature-rich screen recorder..." how can it be both.
2020-06-11 17:21:46 xq kensanata: "peek" tool
2020-06-11 17:22:01 xq https://github.com/phw/peek
2020-06-11 17:23:17 @tomasino i use https://toobnix.org/videos/watch/5fbbb775-bf63-4866-b126-acdc317ee7e3
2020-06-11 17:23:37 kensanata Oh, nice. Peek also comes wi
2020-06-11 17:23:47 kensanata th this distro.
2020-06-11 17:24:16 @tomasino i wanted one that did the webcam with it
2020-06-11 17:24:27 @tomasino vokoscreenNG is nice
2020-06-11 17:24:34 @tomasino off to laser tag! peace
2020-06-11 17:24:35 xq tomasino: OBS Studio is probably really good
2020-06-11 17:24:39 xq have fun!
2020-06-11 17:25:45 acdw My coworker swears by OBS Studio
2020-06-11 17:25:57 acdw Didn't realize it was available for Linux tho
2020-06-11 17:26:32 xq heh
2020-06-11 17:26:35 xq afaik it originated on linux
2020-06-11 17:28:40 xq hmmm
2020-06-11 17:28:50 ~tiwesdaeg did they ever hash out comments in the message board?
2020-06-11 17:28:55 xq the upload protocol looks way mor ecomplex to me than gemini :D
2020-06-11 17:29:50 acdw xq: cool!
2020-06-11 17:30:14 acdw tiwesdaeg : you mean like gemini replies on the mailing list? afaik no
2020-06-11 17:30:22 acdw it's still the wild west out there
2020-06-11 17:30:37 ~tiwesdaeg like using ``` lines as a way to comment
2020-06-11 17:30:42 bard ffmpeg works pretty well for recording your screen, but it may take you a bit to figure out the right arguments and such
2020-06-11 17:31:15 acdw oh no I don't think so -- there's still the real possibility of having alt-text after the ```, which I am very in favor of
2020-06-11 17:32:12 acdw Even though I know solderpunk said > lines will be the last line-type, i'd be down for some comment linetype
2020-06-11 17:32:21 acdw though that might be better suited for authoring software
2020-06-11 17:32:52 acdw since gemini is supposed to be lean on the pipe, having comments in the transmitted source of pages doesn't make a ton of sense
2020-06-11 17:37:59 kensanata Ok, got a 50s movie using Peek.
2020-06-11 17:38:07 kensanata Now I need to add some music...
2020-06-11 17:38:08 kensanata Hahaha
2020-06-11 17:38:12 ~tiwesdaeg does it have great music?
2020-06-11 17:38:21 kensanata It has the Sound of Silence!
2020-06-11 17:38:23 ~tiwesdaeg 'cause I don't have sound
2020-06-11 17:38:33 kensanata I guess then it's perfect!
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2020-06-11 17:54:31 kensanata There you go: https://alexschroeder.ch/videos/gemini_write_demo.mp4
2020-06-11 17:54:35 kensanata With music.
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2020-06-11 20:11:41 @tomasino tiwesdaeg: whatever astrobotany is doing for their message board is fantastic as far as commenting goes, if one is looking for that open-engagement type thing
2020-06-11 20:12:27 @tomasino solderpunk has mentioned he'll likely have a ruling on alt text before the next spec freeze, so hopefully very soon
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2020-06-11 20:42:54 kensanata 🚀🚀 – I feel that Gemini deserves twin rockets.
2020-06-11 20:43:12 @tomasino good call
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2020-06-11 20:49:12 @tomasino oh look: solderpunk addressing kensanata and xq about uploading on fedi
2020-06-11 20:49:15 @tomasino perfect timing you guys
2020-06-11 20:51:03 xq huh, can you link that?
2020-06-11 20:51:12 kensanata tomasino: Now I'm thinking: has it come to this? Did I need a video to explain how a plain text protocol could be extended‽
2020-06-11 20:51:25 kensanata xq: https://tilde.zone/@solderpunk/104327315960580927
2020-06-11 20:52:29 xq thanks!
2020-06-11 20:57:23 @tomasino hehe
2020-06-11 20:57:30 @tomasino i do intend on recording my gemini vid tonight
2020-06-11 20:57:36 @tomasino gonna make some coffee here shortly
2020-06-11 20:57:40 xq \o/
2020-06-11 20:59:34 kensanata tomasino: That sounds like you already have other videos?
2020-06-11 20:59:45 @tomasino i have one on gopher and one on git
2020-06-11 21:00:00 @tomasino https://toobnix.org/videos/watch/1b9699da-3c41-48a8-8009-97b756e88a3d
2020-06-11 21:00:02 @tomasino gopher ^
2020-06-11 21:00:22 @tomasino https://toobnix.org/videos/watch/74b2b149-3c64-42db-a166-3f12ea241216
2020-06-11 21:00:23 @tomasino git ^
2020-06-11 21:00:40 @tomasino my fancy-pants ssh key management system using lastpass - https://toobnix.org/videos/watch/7723d336-96be-4559-8b3c-336daf6d7367
2020-06-11 21:01:45 kensanata OK, bookmarking these!
2020-06-11 21:01:56 @tomasino :D
2020-06-11 21:03:19 kensanata Nice mic setup!
2020-06-11 21:04:11 kensanata I have small Snowball mic for my podcast...
2020-06-11 21:04:40 kensanata Does anybody do anything with the language tag?
2020-06-11 21:04:58 kensanata The mailing list is like a firehose!
2020-06-11 21:06:44 @tomasino yeah, it's redic
2020-06-11 21:06:55 @tomasino but i stay on just in case someone tries to screw with text/gemini
2020-06-11 21:07:04 @tomasino that's pretty much the only spot i have *opinions*
2020-06-11 21:07:10 xq heh
2020-06-11 21:07:22 xq it's really on fire, i stopped reading discussions as well :D
2020-06-11 21:07:31 @tomasino and i hang out in here to test peoples clients and give feedabck and occasionally mess with a makefile
2020-06-11 21:11:04 xq and that's awesome! :)
2020-06-11 21:11:11 @tomasino :)
2020-06-11 21:11:48 ~tiwesdaeg nice: presets/tomasino.kthm
2020-06-11 21:13:08 @tomasino thanks
2020-06-11 21:13:16 ~tiwesdaeg I haven't seen it yet
2020-06-11 21:13:24 ~tiwesdaeg just building currently
2020-06-11 21:14:43 ~tiwesdaeg I guess I have to manually copy the preset somewhere
2020-06-11 21:16:13 xq you can import the preset in the settings menu :)
2020-06-11 21:16:21 xq not 100% convenient atm
2020-06-11 21:16:35 @tomasino it's not nothin'
2020-06-11 21:16:40 ~tiwesdaeg just did
2020-06-11 21:16:52 @tomasino are we kristall twins now?
2020-06-11 21:17:17 ~tiwesdaeg by the power of kristall, form of twins!
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2020-06-11 21:17:26 ⚡ tomasino takes the form of a wet sock
2020-06-11 21:17:27 xq \o/
2020-06-11 21:17:33 xq ROFL
2020-06-11 21:17:49 ⚡ tiwesdaeg uses wet sock to defeat the evil html
2020-06-11 21:18:27 @tomasino well done
2020-06-11 21:48:37 kensanata I don't know why I always postpone writing tests. When I finally get to it, it feels so good. No longer always on the brink of disaster.
2020-06-11 21:49:23 xq :)
2020-06-11 21:51:38 kensanata And with that, I'm off to bed. Good night, astronauts!
2020-06-11 22:04:42 @tomasino Night
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2020-06-11 23:27:17 thombles sorry for the noise, I forgot this laptop will sleep haphazardly which plays poorly with irssi
2020-06-11 23:46:02 @tomasino i just recorded my gemini video
2020-06-11 23:46:10 @tomasino will be posting to peertube & youtube shortly
2020-06-12 00:02:49 @tomasino peertube is still transcoding, but youtube is ready - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoEI6VzybDk&feature=youtu.be
2020-06-12 00:06:08 @tomasino and here's peertube half-transcoded... still waiting on HD - https://toobnix.org/videos/watch/8ee54700-971c-4da3-a8b4-7a78ed9ac42e
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2020-06-12 00:18:12 styan xq: I see Kristall ^
2020-06-12 00:18:49 @tomasino Kristall is front and center!
2020-06-12 00:19:02 @tomasino Castor gets a shout out, and Av98 for a minute
2020-06-12 00:19:16 xq oh neat
2020-06-12 00:19:17 xq much love
2020-06-12 00:19:47 @tomasino ❤️
2020-06-12 00:22:34 @tomasino oh nice, i just checked the #gemini fedi hashtag and found my own peertube post there
2020-06-12 00:22:37 @tomasino i love federation
2020-06-12 00:33:30 styan tomasino - "I don't think anyone has made an Android client just yet". Also on screen "=> A Gemini client for Android [HTTPS]" :-)
2020-06-12 00:34:10 @tomasino hehe
2020-06-12 00:34:23 @tomasino comment away about it
2020-06-12 00:34:55 @tomasino and of course do so if i say anything incorrect or misleading
2020-06-12 00:35:39 styan Your window manager looks cool for presentations, with the easy tile resizing.
2020-06-12 00:36:11 @tomasino thanks... it's... (looks around)... gnome
2020-06-12 00:36:12 @tomasino :P
2020-06-12 00:38:58 xq now watching
2020-06-12 00:39:04 @tomasino yay!
2020-06-12 00:39:07 ⚡ tomasino makes a sammich
2020-06-12 00:40:13 xq enjoy!
2020-06-12 00:44:15 xq tomasino: i see you were cowardly not clicking any of the links in the torture test :D
2020-06-12 00:46:57 styan nvi(1) does not have a soft-wrap option, so "Don't manually break lines." would make it awful to write (for me).
2020-06-12 00:59:31 xq btw, Kristall can *highlight* and _underline_ text, but that's an experimental feature
2020-06-12 01:01:32 xq oh, tomasino: what font are you using to get emoji support? :D
2020-06-12 01:01:38 xq mine doesn't render those *sad*
2020-06-12 01:02:11 @tomasino Um, I'm not in front of my machine but I think it's in my theme file
2020-06-12 01:02:51 @tomasino It's so pretty isn't it?
2020-06-12 01:03:00 xq yees!
2020-06-12 01:03:23 xq (also i just fixed that horrible wide text display when opening astrobotany)
2020-06-12 01:08:23 xq I'm tempted to submit Kristall to HN
2020-06-12 01:08:36 xq the post of Castor already spun up hype :D
2020-06-12 01:12:10 xq wonderful video, it's a really good introduction on Gemini :)
2020-06-12 01:13:25 xq also, i'm really proud right now seeing you using Kristall and it just looks like a modern, usable browser *blush*
2020-06-12 01:16:02 @tomasino You've done a great job!
2020-06-12 01:19:07 xq thanks
2020-06-12 01:19:14 xq and still there is so much to do
2020-06-12 01:19:32 xq for example: query the user if they want to keep their client certificate active when switching domains
2020-06-12 01:20:41 xq which is kinda a safety/tracking concern
2020-06-12 01:23:31 xq but this will all be included in the 0.3 public release :)
2020-06-12 01:23:36 xq and now: bed. it's late already again
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2020-06-12 03:27:44 makeworld xq: Yeah, submit it! Maybe make binaries first though? But overall go for it yeah
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2020-06-12 09:43:33 kensanata 🚀🚀‼
2020-06-12 09:43:47 kensanata Checking in before going to buy ice cream!
2020-06-12 09:45:54 @julienxx Got molly brown running on Plan 9 gemini://9til.de/ I'm so happy!
2020-06-12 09:46:03 xq hey makeworld
2020-06-12 09:46:18 xq julienxx: you what?! nice!
2020-06-12 09:46:48 kensanata I really have to install Plan 9 one of these days.
2020-06-12 09:46:58 kensanata Does Emacs work on Plan 9 is all I want to know!
2020-06-12 09:47:03 @julienxx I'm trying to make a small Plan 9 pubnix
2020-06-12 09:47:12 @julienxx no emacs on plan9
2020-06-12 09:47:15 kensanata Noooooooo
2020-06-12 09:47:34 @julienxx sam is like a better ed and there is acme which is kinda nice
2020-06-12 09:47:47 kensanata I read about them in a book, on actual paper.
2020-06-12 09:47:52 kensanata That's how long ago it was.
2020-06-12 09:47:58 @julienxx plan 9 is very mouse oriented overall
2020-06-12 09:48:03 styan You can check your email in acme, like emacs.
2020-06-12 09:48:22 @julienxx you can do everything in acme basically
2020-06-12 09:49:04 xq kensanata: you don't need EMACS on plan9
2020-06-12 09:49:11 xq ACME is everything
2020-06-12 09:49:16 xq it's … intruiging
2020-06-12 09:49:43 xq i watched some tutorials and used it for a moment
2020-06-12 09:49:43 @julienxx everything is a file and you open files in acme :)
2020-06-12 09:49:47 xq yep
2020-06-12 09:49:58 xq ftp server? use acme + ls
2020-06-12 09:50:06 xq irc? use acme
2020-06-12 09:50:15 kensanata I'll think about ACME as I go about buying ice-cream.
2020-06-12 09:50:27 kensanata acme has irc? Cool.
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2020-06-12 09:51:18 styan Acme is cool... if you have a good mouse for chording.
2020-06-12 09:51:59 xq you mean for plumbing? :D
2020-06-12 09:52:33 styan I thought that was just middle-click?
2020-06-12 09:53:09 xq kinda
2020-06-12 09:53:12 styan Or right-click.
2020-06-12 09:54:23 xq not sure, the mouse stuff was really unusual
2020-06-12 09:59:46 styan I love the idea of proportional fonts for programming, I just like my nvi keys too much.
2020-06-12 10:00:52 xq i never got to like CLI editors
2020-06-12 10:01:00 xq or better: TUI editors
2020-06-12 10:05:20 ⚡ tomasino mutters, "vim is life" from the corner
2020-06-12 10:05:55 xq yeah yeah :D
2020-06-12 10:06:04 xq it's a matter of taste and what you're used to
2020-06-12 10:08:14 xq i used windows for the first 10 years of my coding life
2020-06-12 10:10:20 styan I would probably prefer herloom vi over vim, vim is big.
2020-06-12 10:11:38 @tomasino I use neovim now mostly, but maintain my vimrc too
2020-06-12 10:12:12 styan If I use vim for too long I mess up something by trying to redo a set of undos.
2020-06-12 10:12:17 @tomasino I coded on windows for 6-7 years and it was tedious
2020-06-12 10:13:16 @tomasino Branching history stuff is hard to grok but so powerful. I miss it when I'm not in vim
2020-06-12 10:13:25 styan Redo 5 times on nvi: "u....", on vim that will erase the redo history.
2020-06-12 10:13:42 @tomasino No, it won't
2020-06-12 10:13:47 @tomasino It's in another branch
2020-06-12 10:14:20 styan I have never heard of that.
2020-06-12 10:14:27 @tomasino https://github.com/mbbill/undotree
2020-06-12 10:14:36 @tomasino This makes it easier to visualize
2020-06-12 10:14:51 styan Would it work in vi-compatible mode?
2020-06-12 10:15:10 @tomasino If it's in actual vim, yes
2020-06-12 10:15:23 @tomasino I dunno about nvi
2020-06-12 10:15:33 @tomasino Or elvis
2020-06-12 10:15:38 @tomasino Or any of those
2020-06-12 10:16:50 @tomasino I think there's a vimcast on the undo tree
2020-06-12 10:17:15 @tomasino http://vimcasts.org/episodes/undo-branching-and-gundo-vim/
2020-06-12 10:17:24 @tomasino This explains it wonderfully
2020-06-12 10:18:46 styan Ah, vi-compatible only hase one undo level like heirloom vi.
2020-06-12 10:19:26 styan :earlier still works though?
2020-06-12 10:19:29 styan Weird.
2020-06-12 10:19:50 @tomasino :)
2020-06-12 10:20:19 @tomasino It's powerful stuff once you start actually using it
2020-06-12 10:20:39 @tomasino I keep a massive history depth on my projects
2020-06-12 10:20:42 styan That is something good to know the next time I am editing something in some Linux VM.
2020-06-12 10:22:34 @tomasino :earlier 5m
2020-06-12 10:22:41 @tomasino Life saver
2020-06-12 10:22:44 @tomasino ;)
2020-06-12 10:22:52 styan I still think that vim is way too big though :-)
2020-06-12 10:23:00 styan )I also think that nvi is too big too)
2020-06-12 10:23:43 @tomasino ed!
2020-06-12 10:23:55 jan or emacs in evil-mode
2020-06-12 10:23:57 styan I should learn sam
2020-06-12 10:24:24 @tomasino Everyone is plan9ing these days
2020-06-12 10:25:18 @tomasino I have jed as the default editor on cosmic for new users
2020-06-12 10:25:28 @tomasino Reminds me of oooooold word perfect
2020-06-12 10:25:44 @tomasino F-key menu, easy editing
2020-06-12 10:28:51 styan Like ee(1)! <- pun
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2020-06-12 10:43:40 @julienxx kensanata: are you happy with Radicale?
2020-06-12 10:44:25 kensanata julienxx: Well, setup is complete. I don't think I've added a single calendar item or contact, yet.
2020-06-12 10:44:38 kensanata So, as happy as is reasonable for zero data, haha.
2020-06-12 10:45:17 @julienxx haha cool
2020-06-12 10:47:38 kensanata ASCII diagrams, Unicode diagrams, or Mermaid? https://mermaid-js.github.io/mermaid/#/sequenceDiagram?id=syntax
2020-06-12 10:48:11 kensanata Or ASCIIflow??
2020-06-12 10:48:48 @julienxx I use plantUML at work, it's a nice tool
2020-06-12 10:49:42 kensanata I like the word "plant"
2020-06-12 10:50:47 kensanata The yellow boxes make me think of Rational Rose.
2020-06-12 10:51:28 @julienxx being able to make commits and pull requests on diagrams is really practical
2020-06-12 10:54:59 kensanata True!
2020-06-12 11:03:39 @tomasino i am here! (like, on the computer now)
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2020-06-12 11:22:31 @tomasino xq: https://ttm.sh/QBj.png - note the document outline
2020-06-12 11:22:42 @tomasino looks like the 3rd level item isn't parsing properly
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2020-06-12 11:24:12 styan Hmm, Gemini application idea: Public calender using client certificates to controll read/write/invite permissions.
2020-06-12 11:24:21 styan s/controll/control/
2020-06-12 11:27:24 @tomasino fancy!
2020-06-12 11:27:34 @tomasino i'm inviting you all to the party in my pants
2020-06-12 11:27:43 @tomasino :P
2020-06-12 11:43:43 @tomasino xq: https://github.com/MasterQ32/kristall/pull/8
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2020-06-12 11:52:04 kensanata OK, mermaid annoyed me enough that I've decided to give text a try.
2020-06-12 11:52:35 @tomasino asciifloooooow
2020-06-12 11:52:36 @tomasino :P
2020-06-12 11:53:10 kensanata I actually tried to use Artist Mode in Emacs, which is somewhat similar, and it annoyed me, too.
2020-06-12 11:59:28 styan tomasino xq: You could do something like this and let the qmake generated Makefile deal with dependencies: https://ttm.sh/QBZ.mk
2020-06-12 12:34:19 ~tiwesdaeg julienxx: I use radicale for contact syncing storage
2020-06-12 12:34:59 @julienxx works well with phones?
2020-06-12 12:35:02 ~tiwesdaeg it replaced an instance of nextcloud that I had, which I never used much except for the dav stuff
2020-06-12 12:35:25 ~tiwesdaeg works great with davx5
2020-06-12 12:35:32 ~tiwesdaeg I honestly forget it exists sometimes
2020-06-12 12:35:48 ~tiwesdaeg just chugs along on one of my vps's
2020-06-12 12:36:33 @julienxx neat!
2020-06-12 12:38:52 ~tiwesdaeg looks like it even comes with a systemd service
2020-06-12 12:38:59 ~tiwesdaeg I figured I'd check in on it
2020-06-12 12:42:34 ~tiwesdaeg also, on the text editor topic, has anyone tried micro?
2020-06-12 12:43:00 ~tiwesdaeg it's sort of like nano, but with normal shortcuts
2020-06-12 12:44:12 @tomasino no! i was unaware of it
2020-06-12 12:44:24 @tomasino i've been trying to install every terminal editor i can find on cosmic
2020-06-12 12:44:39 ~tiwesdaeg it's actually really nice
2020-06-12 12:45:19 ~tiwesdaeg should be even easier than jed
2020-06-12 12:45:29 ~tiwesdaeg you want to save? ctrl-s
2020-06-12 12:45:29 @tomasino oh, hah, nevermind
2020-06-12 12:45:33 ~tiwesdaeg you want to quit?
2020-06-12 12:45:33 @tomasino i already did install that one
2020-06-12 12:45:35 ~tiwesdaeg ctrl-q
2020-06-12 12:45:41 ~tiwesdaeg haha
2020-06-12 12:46:02 ~tiwesdaeg the author is really big on distributing binaries for every platform
2020-06-12 12:46:19 @tomasino it's cool
2020-06-12 12:46:35 ~tiwesdaeg I flip flop between it and vim
2020-06-12 12:47:07 ~tiwesdaeg it seems to be a bit more mouse friendly
2020-06-12 12:47:51 ~tiwesdaeg nano/pico have crazy shortcuts since they are based on the old pine email client
2020-06-12 12:49:43 @tomasino jeds info page is great
2020-06-12 12:50:19 @tomasino i should learn how to make these info docs
2020-06-12 12:50:43 @tomasino the infodoc for recutils is also stellar
2020-06-12 12:51:08 ~tiwesdaeg when did xq add the Makefile?
2020-06-12 12:51:50 @tomasino i pr'd it in yesterday
2020-06-12 12:52:09 @tomasino there was a simpler one before that
2020-06-12 12:53:49 ~tiwesdaeg I've been doing it the old manual way
2020-06-12 12:55:05 ~tiwesdaeg no issues on manjaro
2020-06-12 12:55:16 @tomasino :)
2020-06-12 12:55:34 ~tiwesdaeg I was fiddling with hard drives in this desktop, trying to install Haiku
2020-06-12 12:55:41 ~tiwesdaeg now I can't boot the netbsd drive
2020-06-12 12:55:45 @tomasino oh no
2020-06-12 12:55:52 @tomasino boot loader issues?
2020-06-12 12:55:53 ~tiwesdaeg I'm not sure if I over fiddled with a cable or something
2020-06-12 12:55:57 @tomasino oh, hardware
2020-06-12 12:56:09 ~tiwesdaeg I unplugged that drive to put in another
2020-06-12 12:56:27 ~tiwesdaeg put everything back, but it won't boot from the uefi boot menu
2020-06-12 12:56:40 ~tiwesdaeg who uses grub for multiboot anymore?
2020-06-12 12:57:05 ~tiwesdaeg especially when I'm always moving things around and installing different operating systems
2020-06-12 12:57:35 ~tiwesdaeg I'll pop open the case later and try again
2020-06-12 13:00:55 ~tiwesdaeg are we using capsule is the same way as gopherhole?
2020-06-12 13:01:17 ~tiwesdaeg and not just another way to say gemlog/glog/phlog/blog
2020-06-12 13:12:37 xq tiwesdaeg, tomasino: do you know tilde?
2020-06-12 13:12:39 xq the editor?
2020-06-12 13:12:48 xq https://os.ghalkes.nl/tilde/
2020-06-12 13:13:35 ~tiwesdaeg the blue, it hurts my eyes!
2020-06-12 13:14:01 xq it has color schemes
2020-06-12 13:14:37 xq funny thing: it's mouse-usable :D
2020-06-12 13:14:49 @tomasino oh yes, i do
2020-06-12 13:14:59 @tomasino it's installed on cosmic! :D
2020-06-12 13:15:06 xq neat
2020-06-12 13:15:44 ~tiwesdaeg it's in the aur
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2020-06-12 13:16:54 ~tiwesdaeg xq: I really like the info text at the bottom right of the kristall window
2020-06-12 13:17:02 xq thanks! :)
2020-06-12 13:17:15 xq i improved it earlier a tad, but it has some bugs stilla
2020-06-12 13:18:15 xq i need to add a timer to refresh the numbers even when nothhing is transferred
2020-06-12 13:18:24 xq so you can see that thhe loading is still in progress
2020-06-12 13:18:30 ~tiwesdaeg I also found a radon image in the wild and was surprised at the in browser display
2020-06-12 13:18:38 @tomasino xq, that 3rd level thingy i screenshotted only happens on that page. maybe the parens in the line?
2020-06-12 13:19:29 xq huh, what do you mean?
2020-06-12 13:19:33 ⚡ xq is missing some context
2020-06-12 13:19:39 ~tiwesdaeg though, they do maximize to window size instead of displaying at regular size
2020-06-12 13:26:25 kensanata gemini://alexschroeder.ch/2020-06-12_Leaving_comments_on_a_Gemini_site
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2020-06-12 13:34:17 xq tomasino: can you tell me what you mean by "3rd level thingy"?
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2020-06-12 13:36:23 @tomasino ###
2020-06-12 13:36:30 @tomasino heading level 3 on the fox index page
2020-06-12 13:36:50 @tomasino in the outline view the text isn't matching what is on the page. it's just showing the top level one again
2020-06-12 13:37:20 xq oh thanks!
2020-06-12 13:37:41 @tomasino really digging deep for bug reports now. ;)
2020-06-12 13:38:36 xq heh
2020-06-12 13:42:22 xq > Your plant was recently watered by tomasino.
2020-06-12 13:42:23 xq thanks!
2020-06-12 13:45:30 mhj Morning geminoes
2020-06-12 13:45:44 xq hey mhj
2020-06-12 13:46:12 mhj yo xq, how're ya
2020-06-12 13:46:27 xq really awesome!
2020-06-12 13:46:47 xq weather is so great, was meeting some friends and we had a fine cup of ice with 27°C
2020-06-12 13:46:54 xq and the most shiny sun
2020-06-12 13:50:49 kensanata has quit (Ping timeout: 120 seconds)
2020-06-12 13:50:58 mhj Nice, sounds good :D
2020-06-12 13:51:45 xq yeah
2020-06-12 13:51:50 xq and now back to coding Kristall
2020-06-12 13:53:08 @tomasino :)
2020-06-12 13:53:33 xq but! I have to spend some time on writing some actual content for my blog as well
2020-06-12 13:53:40 @tomasino content is king
2020-06-12 13:53:45 xq have a half-finished blog entry about resource management in games :D
2020-06-12 13:53:53 @tomasino oooh, games
2020-06-12 13:53:58 @tomasino i need to play something
2020-06-12 13:54:01 @tomasino but i have SO MUCH WORK
2020-06-12 13:54:01 @tomasino ugh
2020-06-12 13:54:22 xq hehe
2020-06-12 13:54:28 xq it's more about writing games, but yeah :D
2020-06-12 13:56:14 @tomasino those are good too
2020-06-12 13:57:37 xq i'm still tempted to create some competition to Astrobotany
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2020-06-12 14:00:16 ~tiwesdaeg competition is great
2020-06-12 14:00:27 xq need to write a gemini server though :D
2020-06-12 14:00:32 xq can't do that stuff with CGI
2020-06-12 14:00:42 ~tiwesdaeg more tomagotchi like games?
2020-06-12 14:00:48 xq heh
2020-06-12 14:01:01 xq my idea was something like a small strategy builder game
2020-06-12 14:01:13 xq where you have to build a small space colony or fund a rocket or something :D
2020-06-12 14:01:23 ~tiwesdaeg lemonade stand
2020-06-12 14:02:01 ~tiwesdaeg I played that on some old tandy something or other as a kid in school
2020-06-12 14:03:38 @tomasino recreate tradewars
2020-06-12 14:04:01 @tomasino oooh, or Legend of the Red Dragon
2020-06-12 14:04:41 dkibi xq: I was thinking about doing an ogame-like throwback
2020-06-12 14:04:49 xq yeah, something like that :D
2020-06-12 14:05:05 xq builing mines, spaceships and conquer the world
2020-06-12 14:05:54 @tomasino brilliant
2020-06-12 14:06:07 @tomasino did door games have a common api?
2020-06-12 14:06:18 @tomasino i wonder if you could just build a bbs door game interface
2020-06-12 14:06:30 @tomasino "you" being anyone
2020-06-12 14:06:55 mhj I heard BBS
2020-06-12 14:06:58 xq hmm *thinking*
2020-06-12 14:07:17 mhj That would be cool tho
2020-06-12 14:07:49 @tomasino i would waste SO MUCH TIME on gemini
2020-06-12 14:07:52 @tomasino holy moly
2020-06-12 14:08:30 mhj As far as Door games having a common API, I don't really know. I just know that they ran on DOS and used a similar graphical style
2020-06-12 14:08:49 xq friend of mine tried to build an emulator kind of thingy for door games
2020-06-12 14:09:09 dkibi some mud like could also work?
2020-06-12 14:09:15 xq hmm
2020-06-12 14:10:08 @tomasino a mud might be more annoying since you have to type input so much
2020-06-12 14:10:24 @tomasino door games mostly had menu-driven interactions which could be parsed to clickable links
2020-06-12 14:10:42 mhj Yeah, I think that makes sense for something like Gemini
2020-06-12 14:11:09 mhj Something like LORD, which I feel is a great game
2020-06-12 14:11:11 @tomasino i know that door games are still running on some modern bbs's like synchronet and mysticbbs
2020-06-12 14:11:55 @tomasino if it wasn't "all" door games and someone just ripped through LORD for its logic and slapped a UTF-8 output thingy on there and client certificate handling, that person would earn $10 from me as a donation
2020-06-12 14:12:00 @tomasino (so not worth the effort)
2020-06-12 14:12:02 dkibi I must admit that I'm not familiar with the concept
2020-06-12 14:12:03 @tomasino but i'd be so happy
2020-06-12 14:12:14 @tomasino let me see if i can find a video or something
2020-06-12 14:12:32 @tomasino https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOBm_JSAKmU
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2020-06-12 14:14:19 dkibi I will watch it! (currently waiting for a meeting to start)
2020-06-12 14:14:42 dkibi the other day I searched the webs for cc licenced cyoa games, but I didn't imediately find some. does anyone know a source?
2020-06-12 14:14:50 dkibi iirc julienxx had some on their capsüle
2020-06-12 14:17:01 mhj A lot of the door games are propeitary licensed IIRC and closed source, which is very unfortunate. Same with the BBSes.
2020-06-12 14:17:14 @tomasino yeah
2020-06-12 14:17:51 @tomasino damn, now i'm thinking we missed an opportunity for ANSi graphics in gemini
2020-06-12 14:17:53 @tomasino :P
2020-06-12 14:18:00 xq you mean colored grraphics?
2020-06-12 14:18:02 @tomasino i'm gonna taunt solderpunk with that in fedi
2020-06-12 14:18:08 @tomasino no, the actual ANSi graphics format
2020-06-12 14:18:11 @tomasino it's different
2020-06-12 14:18:22 @tomasino https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANSI_art
2020-06-12 14:18:42 @tomasino extended character set
2020-06-12 14:19:00 xq where's the problem? that's jus a text file ;)
2020-06-12 14:19:05 xq you have all those chars in utf-8 as well
2020-06-12 14:19:08 xq only no color codes
2020-06-12 14:19:37 @julienxx dkibi: I know it took me time to find the games and I don't remember where I found those
2020-06-12 14:23:54 xq tomasino: you know this page? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Block_Elements
2020-06-12 14:24:47 @tomasino i do, i'm honestly not sure what the functional differences are now that we're talking about it
2020-06-12 14:25:13 @tomasino there was some encoding shenanigans back in the day, but if we're not trying to render actual ANSI art, but create something similar out of UTF-8, i guess that's doable
2020-06-12 14:25:25 xq "ANSI" art is pretty much "use an ansi code page + ansi escape sequences" instead of plain text
2020-06-12 14:25:40 xq you can even iconv these files :)
2020-06-12 14:26:14 xq problem are the escape sequences that change colo
2020-06-12 14:26:27 @tomasino well, i would welcome "ansi" art then
2020-06-12 14:26:36 @tomasino even in B&W
2020-06-12 14:26:48 xq heh
2020-06-12 14:26:54 xq people make awesome ansi art
2020-06-12 14:26:55 xq https://demozoo.org/graphics/268046/
2020-06-12 14:27:16 @tomasino they do indeed
2020-06-12 14:27:20 @tomasino ACiD was amazing
2020-06-12 14:27:35 @tomasino https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACiD_Productions
2020-06-12 14:28:15 @tomasino https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbgD14LH0Ck
2020-06-12 14:28:55 xq pablo draw is still a thing btw
2020-06-12 14:29:31 ⚡ tomasino dances
2020-06-12 14:30:15 rak Hah, I've been reading the Boston Diaries on gopher for close to a year now, but only just put together that Sean Conner on the gemini list is Sean Conner of Boston Diaries.
2020-06-12 14:30:19 xq "that's the song of my people"
2020-06-12 14:30:30 @tomasino hehe
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2020-06-12 15:23:25 ~tiwesdaeg maybe they licked too many cats?
2020-06-12 15:23:37 xq i wouldn't lick a cat
2020-06-12 15:24:47 companion_cube in soviet russia, cats lick you
2020-06-12 15:24:57 lickthecat lol
2020-06-12 15:25:04 xq :O
2020-06-12 15:25:14 xq working on a new feature for Kristall: https://mq32.de/public/8ecb49d08a3f9f77ca9c1267ae5f4c1086a5a027.png
2020-06-12 15:25:24 lickthecat tiwesdaeg: its because im using an irc client called catgirl lol
2020-06-12 15:25:27 xq Certficiate Manager for importing/exporting certificates as well as writing your own notes
2020-06-12 15:25:37 xq lick the cat girl
2020-06-12 15:28:51 ~tiwesdaeg haha
2020-06-12 15:29:24 ~tiwesdaeg is there a way to pull up the cert dialog then without clicking on a link that requires one?
2020-06-12 15:31:35 xq sure
2020-06-12 15:31:39 ~tiwesdaeg #3 search item for "catgirl irc client" on google is Anthrochat, an irc network for furries
2020-06-12 15:31:54 xq just hit the certificate button right of the URL bar!
2020-06-12 15:31:56 ~tiwesdaeg #5 is FurNEt
2020-06-12 15:31:59 ~tiwesdaeg ahh
2020-06-12 15:32:08 ~tiwesdaeg I just thought that disabled the cert
2020-06-12 15:32:18 xq that's one function :D
2020-06-12 15:32:22 xq but it also enables the certificate :)
2020-06-12 15:32:40 ⚡ tiwesdaeg just came back from the garden
2020-06-12 15:32:44 ~tiwesdaeg so many weeds
2020-06-12 15:32:48 ~tiwesdaeg the grass is taking over
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2020-06-12 15:39:29 lickthecat tiwesdaeg: lol https://git.causal.agency/catgirl/about/
2020-06-12 15:44:25 ~tiwesdaeg ooo, I forgot about pounce
2020-06-12 15:45:08 ⚡ lickthecat pounces in tiwesdaeg
2020-06-12 15:45:52 companion_cube apparently there's catnip in your garden tiwesdaeg
2020-06-12 15:46:21 ~tiwesdaeg nice, pounce handles history correctly
2020-06-12 15:46:57 wgreenhouse why do I keep typoing june's site as casual.agency and not causal.agency
2020-06-12 15:47:00 ~tiwesdaeg I wonder if it will build on netbsd or debian
2020-06-12 15:47:06 lickthecat wgreenhouse: omg me too
2020-06-12 15:47:31 ~tiwesdaeg the cat's not allowed outside
2020-06-12 15:47:38 ~tiwesdaeg we haven't gotten her fixed yet
2020-06-12 15:50:00 companion_cube ours stay inside anyway
2020-06-12 15:52:20 ~tiwesdaeg mine got locked in the laundry at night and tore a hole in the screen of the open window
2020-06-12 15:55:25 lickthecat lol wut is your cat wet?
2020-06-12 15:57:08 ~tiwesdaeg was in heat ;P
2020-06-12 15:57:15 ~tiwesdaeg she had some needs
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2020-06-12 16:07:43 wgreenhouse pon farr
2020-06-12 16:41:07 companion_cube the overhead of TLS… can't one just use persistent connections anyway?
2020-06-12 16:41:16 companion_cube (with proper framing ofc)
2020-06-12 16:42:07 xq no, that's not possible in gemini
2020-06-12 16:42:10 xq you have no size header
2020-06-12 16:42:19 xq file size is determined by closing the (TLS) connection
2020-06-12 16:45:25 companion_cube yes but that makes the overhead hard to avoid :p
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2020-06-12 16:50:23 ~tiwesdaeg lickthecat: are you using catgirl on freebsd?
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2020-06-12 17:25:33 xq hmm 🤔
2020-06-12 17:25:48 xq for import/export of certificates, i always need to use certificate-key-pairs
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2020-06-12 17:26:35 xq any ideas how to make that user friendly?
2020-06-12 17:27:11 xq one option would be to let the user select the base file name (name.pem or name.der) and Kristall then exports to name.pem and name.key
2020-06-12 17:27:23 @tomasino that would be cool
2020-06-12 17:27:25 xq or i make an in-between dialog where you can select both files before the transaction
2020-06-12 17:27:26 @tomasino or you could use the CN
2020-06-12 17:28:06 xq it's not really about the file name :D
2020-06-12 17:28:10 xq high level usability features
2020-06-12 17:28:10 xq :D
2020-06-12 17:29:15 mhj I am using this weird and wacky server called Molly Brown on FreeBSD. Who names their servers after names? SO WEIRD.
2020-06-12 17:29:35 mhj JK, I love the server.
2020-06-12 17:29:57 xq heh
2020-06-12 17:30:04 xq i'm using gemserv, it's quite nice
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2020-06-12 17:45:15 @tomasino :)
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2020-06-12 17:49:15 xq hmm, i'm off playing shantae
2020-06-12 17:49:51 xq and thinking about new ways of doing the client cert stuff
2020-06-12 17:51:36 @julienxx Shantae <3
2020-06-12 17:52:54 xq new game is out since 4.6.
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2020-06-12 18:31:17 ~tiwesdaeg schweaty bicycle time is at an end
2020-06-12 18:31:20 ~tiwesdaeg I'm sort of back
2020-06-12 18:45:36 @tomasino yay
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2020-06-12 20:50:28 lukee hi everyone - whats up?
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2020-06-12 20:51:52 acdw hey hey lukee!
2020-06-12 20:51:59 lukee hi there
2020-06-12 20:52:01 acdw just writing and talking on the phone to library patrons
2020-06-12 20:52:02 acdw how are you?
2020-06-12 20:52:30 lukee not bad - I tried to have a day away from the computer today. Not entirely successful
2020-06-12 20:52:51 acdw you *are* here, lol
2020-06-12 20:52:56 lukee exactly
2020-06-12 20:53:07 lukee I tried your bollux client by the way - nice
2020-06-12 20:53:31 lukee for when I am stuck on a terminal
2020-06-12 20:53:55 lukee bombadillo makes no sense to me as I dont use vi and the emacs one, well needs emacs
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2020-06-12 20:54:43 acdw I know :D
2020-06-12 20:55:01 acdw oh shooot I meant to say "I know .." something and then :D in a separate message
2020-06-12 20:55:08 lukee its amazing what you can do with a shell script
2020-06-12 20:55:13 acdw I was going to say "I know how it feels to try and be off the computer"
2020-06-12 20:55:16 acdw and then ":D"
2020-06-12 20:55:29 acdw thanks !
2020-06-12 20:55:42 lukee you work in a library?
2020-06-12 20:55:45 acdw I like shell because it lets you leverage existing technologies and glue them together
2020-06-12 20:55:47 acdw yep!
2020-06-12 20:56:15 lukee for academics or the public
2020-06-12 20:57:01 acdw the public. I just looked up a bible verse for a caller
2020-06-12 20:57:18 acdw which I guess *could* be academic. but also people call to ask for phone numbers all the time
2020-06-12 20:57:49 lukee you could have send a gemini link to him/her - I saw there was a full text of the King James bible in Gemini somewhere
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2020-06-12 20:58:26 acdw haha I'm sure they would've known what to do with that
2020-06-12 20:58:56 lukee one niche interest meets another
2020-06-12 21:00:09 acdw haha
2020-06-12 21:00:43 acdw It is pretty cool they have the bible up on geminispace though! I saw the library of Eris up too
2020-06-12 21:00:56 acdw It'd be cool to get as many public domain books as available and put them up
2020-06-12 21:01:07 acdw gemini://sci-hub.gem
2020-06-12 21:01:14 lukee I clicked on a few links into that library of Eris - its pretty weird stuff - what is it?
2020-06-12 21:01:42 acdw "Discordianism"
2020-06-12 21:01:51 lukee which is...
2020-06-12 21:01:54 acdw https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discordianism
2020-06-12 21:02:02 acdw It's like a parody religion?
2020-06-12 21:02:04 acdw I think?
2020-06-12 21:02:12 lukee like pastafarianism?
2020-06-12 21:02:20 acdw Yeah I think so
2020-06-12 21:03:14 lukee I'll have to read that later - looks interesting. No less strange than the established ones probably
2020-06-12 21:03:47 @tomasino yes, but older
2020-06-12 21:03:56 @tomasino and wonderfully silly
2020-06-12 21:04:03 lukee the sci-hub.gem URL doesnt work for me
2020-06-12 21:04:28 lukee hi tomasino
2020-06-12 21:04:38 lukee Enjoyed your video :-)
2020-06-12 21:06:05 kensanata tomasino hosts the bible, I think?
2020-06-12 21:06:32 @tomasino i do
2020-06-12 21:06:37 @tomasino english standard version
2020-06-12 21:06:48 @tomasino with permission! had to do paperwork and everything
2020-06-12 21:06:52 kensanata Wow
2020-06-12 21:06:54 @tomasino it was fun explaining gopher to them
2020-06-12 21:07:00 kensanata Haha
2020-06-12 21:07:10 companion_cube whose copyright is it?!
2020-06-12 21:08:12 lukee The Good Lord's I think
2020-06-12 21:08:42 lukee that's probably not strictly true...
2020-06-12 21:09:36 kensanata You can get older bibles that are out of copyright. But newer translations have new copyrights.
2020-06-12 21:09:51 kensanata You can get plenty old versions on Gutenberg, I'm sure.
2020-06-12 21:10:11 kensanata I wonder if anybody would look at photo albums via Gemini.
2020-06-12 21:10:43 lukee its hard to visually browse them without thumbnails
2020-06-12 21:10:52 @tomasino Crossway
2020-06-12 21:11:18 @tomasino if you crawl them wiht an ai to label your links it could be fun
2020-06-12 21:11:39 lukee The AI would find all the cats, anyway
2020-06-12 21:11:56 lukee That seems to be the first application of image recognition technologies
2020-06-12 21:12:10 acdw lukee: I was joking about sci-hub.gem, lol
2020-06-12 21:12:26 lukee haha - you never know
2020-06-12 21:12:37 kensanata The images in my albums nearly all have some description...
2020-06-12 21:13:08 lukee why not put a few albums up and experiment to see what the best UI looks like
2020-06-12 21:14:27 @tomasino what's that game ... think of anything and the machine will guess it in 20 questions
2020-06-12 21:14:34 @tomasino that would be fun to make on gemini
2020-06-12 21:14:42 lukee its called "20 questions"
2020-06-12 21:15:24 lukee or maybe thats the human version
2020-06-12 21:17:18 bard tomasino: akinator
2020-06-12 21:18:33 lukee Akinator.com works mainly through advertising. If you enjoy our content, please deactivate your adblocker on Akinator.com.
2020-06-12 21:18:40 lukee lol
2020-06-12 21:19:13 @tomasino Hehe
2020-06-12 21:19:34 bard oh my god, I loaded up the site and my mouse started lagging, it was cranking my cpu or something
2020-06-12 21:20:01 bard maybe mining crypto because I didn't load their ads...
2020-06-12 21:21:07 lukee ok folks nice to catch up, got to go now
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2020-06-12 21:22:45 @tomasino ciao!
2020-06-12 21:29:52 acdw tomasino 20 questions would be an awesome game to do thru gemini, you could even do it with just links
2020-06-12 21:30:04 acdw b/c it's "Animal, Vegetable, Mineral," followed by yes/no
2020-06-12 21:32:26 acdw kensanata: I think it'd be really cool to dither images with like, braille characters and serve those up over Gemini
2020-06-12 21:32:34 kensanata haha
2020-06-12 21:40:30 acdw I don't even know how to begin with that, but it'd be a really neat project
2020-06-12 21:40:31 acdw if huge
2020-06-12 21:40:36 acdw the images I mean, they'd be huge
2020-06-12 21:54:16 xq looks like i really should get that certificate fingerprinting TOFU stuff running
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2020-06-12 21:54:34 acdw oh yes xq me as well
2020-06-12 21:54:39 acdw i've been putting it off
2020-06-12 21:54:45 xq hehe
2020-06-12 21:54:52 acdw but I don't think it'll be hard to *do*
2020-06-12 21:54:55 acdw I just haven't done it yet
2020-06-12 21:55:05 xq 0.3 will be the "Certificate RElease Cycle" for Kristall
2020-06-12 21:55:15 xq i'm just finishing the client certificate stuff
2020-06-12 21:55:28 xq and this means i now know how the certs work
2020-06-12 21:55:47 acdw nice!
2020-06-12 21:56:35 acdw I'm trying to decide how I want to do mine, since right now the page is just coming down the pipe and I'm displaying it
2020-06-12 21:56:52 acdw but to get the certs thing working I think I need to download the pages or something like it
2020-06-12 21:57:14 acdw and I kind of want to, for like, caching purposes. But then that opens up a can of worms like, how long should the cache stay?
2020-06-12 21:57:24 acdw I guess that could be *configurable*
2020-06-12 21:57:50 acdw but it opens up a can of worms I guess
2020-06-12 21:58:00 acdw anyway sorry to rant a little. I have to go back downstairs.
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2020-06-12 22:06:01 acdw aand i'm back!
2020-06-12 22:06:13 acdw i need to make some gemini bookmarks so i don't have to keep searching all over the place
2020-06-12 22:06:39 acdw xq: was it too hard to implement client stuff in Krystall?
2020-06-12 22:06:48 xq nah
2020-06-12 22:06:50 xq not really
2020-06-12 22:07:09 xq i had to include openssl though for cert generation
2020-06-12 22:07:34 acdw oh okay cool-- I already have openssl to get the page
2020-06-12 22:07:38 acdw so that's good
2020-06-12 22:07:38 xq neat
2020-06-12 22:08:45 xq i just wonder
2020-06-12 22:09:07 xq should i store the public key or the certificate fingerprint
2020-06-12 22:09:25 acdw I've been wondering the same! I was thinking about ... both?
2020-06-12 22:09:47 xq i think we actually should store the pubkey
2020-06-12 22:09:52 xq instead of certificate info
2020-06-12 22:09:53 acdw Like here's what I was thinking, with the caching and all: I'd download the whole response, `openssl s_client` the whole thing
2020-06-12 22:09:57 xq because then we can also renew certificates
2020-06-12 22:10:01 acdw hmm yes
2020-06-12 22:10:23 xq would also solve the thing with the client certificates
2020-06-12 22:10:24 acdw I like also how portal.mozz.us allows users to view the certificate of the page
2020-06-12 22:10:41 acdw what's that thing?
2020-06-12 22:10:50 acdw that it'd solve?
2020-06-12 22:10:50 acdw Sorry I don't quite follow
2020-06-12 22:10:50 xq can you link me that page?
2020-06-12 22:10:59 xq ah
2020-06-12 22:11:01 acdw https://portal.mozz.us/gemini/gemini.circumlunar.space/?crt=1
2020-06-12 22:11:08 xq "that thing" is the point that client certificates expire
2020-06-12 22:11:16 acdw I think just `?crt=1` after the URL
2020-06-12 22:11:20 acdw oh yes that's right!
2020-06-12 22:11:20 acdw !
2020-06-12 22:11:56 acdw so if you saved the pubkey of the page, you could see if it expired?
2020-06-12 22:12:04 xq i think we actually should store the pubke
2020-06-12 22:12:07 xq SSH does so as well
2020-06-12 22:12:13 xq (looking at "known hosts")
2020-06-12 22:12:34 xq nah, i can see expiry even when i'm not using the pubkey
2020-06-12 22:12:35 acdw that would guarantee no collisions
2020-06-12 22:12:43 xq but i can re-recognize a new certificate by the same private key
2020-06-12 22:12:56 acdw oh okay. Oh okay! I think I get it
2020-06-12 22:13:19 acdw Did you read anything besides manuals on SSL to write the client cert stuff for Krystall?
2020-06-12 22:13:57 xq nope
2020-06-12 22:14:02 xq Qt has that all built-in
2020-06-12 22:14:26 acdw niiiccceee
2020-06-12 22:14:38 acdw that's probably the thing that's biting me the most re: shell.
2020-06-12 22:14:46 acdw I have to do a lot of stuff from scratch.
2020-06-12 22:15:19 makeworld acdw: I can explain how the cache in my client works if that helps
2020-06-12 22:15:34 makeworld It seems to work well
2020-06-12 22:15:45 xq makeworld: do you have TOFU implemented yet?
2020-06-12 22:15:46 acdw yes please makeworld!
2020-06-12 22:15:52 acdw I'd love to learn as much as possible.
2020-06-12 22:16:04 makeworld xq: Yep! Seems to work
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2020-06-12 22:16:10 makeworld acdw: Sounds good :)
2020-06-12 22:16:13 xq okay, what do you store?
2020-06-12 22:16:17 xq pubkey or certificate?
2020-06-12 22:16:29 makeworld Hash of raw cert and expiry date
2020-06-12 22:16:33 makeworld afaik that's all you need
2020-06-12 22:16:33 xq hm
2020-06-12 22:16:43 xq ssh saves pubkeys
2020-06-12 22:16:57 xq because you couldn't visit my site then after a week
2020-06-12 22:17:01 xq (at least my https site)
2020-06-12 22:17:02 makeworld Yeah but that means an attacker could use an old cert with the same key
2020-06-12 22:17:07 xq i refresh the certificate every other day
2020-06-12 22:17:18 xq but they need the private key
2020-06-12 22:17:25 xq and if they have the private key, everytihng is lost anyways
2020-06-12 22:17:25 makeworld Hmm yeah I guess
2020-06-12 22:17:31 xq because certs don't contain that ,)
2020-06-12 22:17:42 xq if i have the private key, i can create new certs for that identity
2020-06-12 22:18:02 makeworld I don't know enough to say, but I just know they're a precedent for storing it like that thanks to Bombadillo. Idk, maybe public key is better?
2020-06-12 22:18:22 xq i think so
2020-06-12 22:18:48 acdw Afaict the main difference would be space, at least for most use-cases. Pubkey is *public*, so there's no expectation of privacy there
2020-06-12 22:19:24 xq yes, but the pubkey allow us to recognize a privkey aain
2020-06-12 22:19:26 xq *again
2020-06-12 22:19:42 acdw oh yes okay. which is different from a cert as well.
2020-06-12 22:19:46 xq the cert is pretty much just an expiry date signed with the privkey
2020-06-12 22:19:46 acdw this is where I get confused.
2020-06-12 22:19:50 acdw OH
2020-06-12 22:19:59 xq (at least to my understanding)
2020-06-12 22:20:14 xq it's like "i'm guaranteeing you for 3 months that i am in control of this server"
2020-06-12 22:20:17 acdw hey it's more than mine lol
2020-06-12 22:20:19 makeworld As long as you're storing the expiry date I don't think it matters to much
2020-06-12 22:20:22 makeworld *too
2020-06-12 22:20:25 xq i have to refresh the certificate to continue trust
2020-06-12 22:20:28 xq in that time
2020-06-12 22:20:50 makeworld You should still store expiry in case the cert is lost, or the protocol changes, etc
2020-06-12 22:21:13 acdw yes that makes sense
2020-06-12 22:21:41 makeworld But yeah maybe pubkey is better than fingerprint
2020-06-12 22:21:44 makeworld Idk
2020-06-12 22:21:46 xq i think privkey + fingerprint (as in sha256 hash of the cert in DER format) should be enough
2020-06-12 22:21:59 makeworld What's the point of storing both?
2020-06-12 22:22:06 xq fingerprint allows you to recognize a refreshing of the cert
2020-06-12 22:22:07 makeworld I think expiry is still valuable, see above
2020-06-12 22:22:14 makeworld But why do you care?
2020-06-12 22:22:21 xq so you notice that the certificate is refreshed
2020-06-12 22:22:28 makeworld But what does that mean to the user?
2020-06-12 22:22:41 xq you can always check the expiry date of the cert provided by the server
2020-06-12 22:22:50 xq as long as the legit owner is in charge
2020-06-12 22:22:55 xq it can refresh the certificate
2020-06-12 22:23:18 makeworld But what if I lose the cert and private key?
2020-06-12 22:23:40 makeworld The advantage of storing the expiry date is that if everything is lost the site will still start working again
2020-06-12 22:23:46 xq if you lose the cert
2020-06-12 22:23:46 makeworld After the old cert expires
2020-06-12 22:23:48 xq yo can make a new one
2020-06-12 22:23:52 xq if you lose the private key
2020-06-12 22:23:55 xq you have to rebuild the trust
2020-06-12 22:23:59 xq (you're a new identity then)
2020-06-12 22:24:12 xq please note that you need BOTH cert and private key
2020-06-12 22:24:14 xq to serve a site
2020-06-12 22:24:14 makeworld Hmm
2020-06-12 22:24:21 xq cert alone doesn't help
2020-06-12 22:24:29 xq you send the whole certificate to the client anyways
2020-06-12 22:24:39 makeworld And I guess this helps fix attacks where you wait for the expiry of a cert than MITM to become the new trust
2020-06-12 22:25:14 xq hm, i can't follow you there…
2020-06-12 22:25:26 xq the idea of tofu is that you trust the servers keypair
2020-06-12 22:25:39 xq as long as that keypair is maintained, you cannot MITM the server
2020-06-12 22:25:48 makeworld No I mean with the thing I was doing
2020-06-12 22:25:59 makeworld With the storing of the hash and expiry
2020-06-12 22:26:04 xq storing the expiry date doesn't help anything afaik
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2020-06-12 22:26:13 xq you can only re-recognize the same certificate
2020-06-12 22:26:27 makeworld An attacker could wait until the cert expires, then MITM and have the user add a new hash to their db of the attacker's cert
2020-06-12 22:26:32 makeworld Under my code
2020-06-12 22:26:34 kensanata I'm interested in UI feedback: gemini://alexschroeder.ch/do/gallery – I recommend all the Galápagos galleries to take a peek.
2020-06-12 22:27:10 acdw makeworld: I get it, but if they saved the pubkey it wouldn't work
2020-06-12 22:27:19 acdw I don't know if I can get the pubkey using openssl s_client
2020-06-12 22:27:23 xq oh, pictures of boobies!
2020-06-12 22:27:24 xq i like that
2020-06-12 22:27:39 acdw you about had me xq, i'm at work rn
2020-06-12 22:27:56 xq those boobies are perfectly SFW
2020-06-12 22:28:16 acdw hahaha
2020-06-12 22:28:22 makeworld xq: Under my system any cert can replace another, once it expires. Which is obv bad, I see that now
2020-06-12 22:28:31 acdw also great pictures kensanata! I'm def going to use this site to work on my downloading logic
2020-06-12 22:28:33 xq oh, true :D
2020-06-12 22:28:37 acdw b/c it leaves a lot to be desired
2020-06-12 22:29:02 makeworld But the main issue that you brought up is that if you change the cert early it will cause an error
2020-06-12 22:29:12 xq yeah
2020-06-12 22:29:25 xq i think i'll write a mail to the ML :D
2020-06-12 22:30:13 makeworld About how to do TOFU? That'd be great
2020-06-12 22:30:13 acdw oh fun!
2020-06-12 22:30:17 acdw yes pls
2020-06-12 22:31:18 acdw and oh! I can chain options with openssl x509
2020-06-12 22:31:44 xq yeah, about TOFU
2020-06-12 22:31:44 acdw so `openssl x509 -pubkey -dates -...` will get me everything I need and I can pop that in a file by like, domain
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2020-06-12 22:33:15 makeworld xq: Why store the fingerprint along with the pubkey, like why does it matter if the cert is refreshed or not, as long as the pubkey matches?
2020-06-12 22:33:25 xq nah, doesn#t really matter
2020-06-12 22:33:37 xq i would just announce to the user that something has changed in a non-intrusive way
2020-06-12 22:35:17 makeworld Ah okay
2020-06-12 22:35:30 makeworld https://tildegit.org/sloum/bombadillo/issues/173
2020-06-12 22:35:36 makeworld Made that issue for Bombadillo about it
2020-06-12 22:35:43 makeworld Lmk if I should rewrite something
2020-06-12 22:36:56 makeworld acdw: Sorry, cache time haha
2020-06-12 22:37:10 acdw :D
2020-06-12 22:37:13 acdw no worries!
2020-06-12 22:37:41 acdw speaking of certificates: https://drewdevault.com/tls/security/oauth/2020/06/12/Can-we-talk-about-client-side-certs.html
2020-06-12 22:37:54 makeworld My unreleased browser caches any text/gemini or text/plain pages, storing the rendered page, url and the link. The max number of pages and/or the max cache size in bytes is configurable
2020-06-12 22:38:11 makeworld The cache is just in-memory, so it starts whenever the browser is opened
2020-06-12 22:38:31 acdw oh cool -- yes I was thinking about an in-memory cache so like, backs and forwards wouldn't do a round-trip with the server
2020-06-12 22:38:47 makeworld The cache is organized by URLs, and I also normalize the URLs so that if it has :1965 or no port it doesn't create a double entry
2020-06-12 22:38:50 makeworld Yeah exactly
2020-06-12 22:39:08 makeworld And when you reload a page, it clears the cache for that URL, then tries to load it again
2020-06-12 22:39:16 makeworld So it's trivial for the user to get an updated version
2020-06-12 22:39:19 acdw that makes a lot of sense! And I need to make sure I normalize URLs for like, my history too
2020-06-12 22:39:20 acdw YES!
2020-06-12 22:39:25 acdw that's exactly what I was thinking
2020-06-12 22:39:33 makeworld And also at the moment I don't cache any URLs with query strings
2020-06-12 22:39:42 acdw so glad that you're also thinking it--it makes me think that I'm on the right track
2020-06-12 22:39:44 makeworld To prevent unexpected behaviour
2020-06-12 22:39:46 makeworld :)
2020-06-12 22:39:57 acdw that makes a lot of sense -- usu. those would be dynamic
2020-06-12 22:40:05 acdw hmm the other thing is cgi scripts
2020-06-12 22:40:20 acdw like there's a page somewhere that gives the current time, that wouldn't be good to cache
2020-06-12 22:40:26 acdw but I'm not sure how to heuristic those things
2020-06-12 22:40:36 makeworld Also maybe I should not serve cached results when the user manually types a URL? Idk
2020-06-12 22:40:47 makeworld Well I could just search for "/cgi-bin/"
2020-06-12 22:41:02 acdw hmm
2020-06-12 22:41:10 acdw I was thinking about /cgi-bin/ or /cgi/
2020-06-12 22:41:27 acdw Whatever it is it should prabably be configurable
2020-06-12 22:41:47 makeworld But anyway you can't actually determine whether it's CGI or not
2020-06-12 22:42:07 acdw yeah I figured.
2020-06-12 22:42:08 acdw womp
2020-06-12 22:42:23 acdw Does HTTP have some header about CGI-ness? Or how do they do it?
2020-06-12 22:42:30 acdw I"m guessing it's about 10201923810293810832% more complicated
2020-06-12 22:42:37 makeworld Lol, idk
2020-06-12 22:43:33 acdw I'm loving this, by the way, about geminispace: it's like everyone's kind of figuring it out together
2020-06-12 22:43:48 makeworld Yeah :)
2020-06-12 22:44:51 acdw I'm wondering if SirCmpwn has been reading around gemini...that article about client certs is basically everything that's been on the mailing list
2020-06-12 22:45:17 makeworld acdw: He definitely knows about it, he might have a site?
2020-06-12 22:45:23 acdw oh wild
2020-06-12 22:45:26 makeworld Drew Devault you mean right?
2020-06-12 22:45:28 acdw yes
2020-06-12 22:45:32 acdw right the real name
2020-06-12 22:45:33 acdw lol
2020-06-12 22:45:42 makeworld He said he might but sr.ht on Gemini I think, I don't remember
2020-06-12 22:46:24 acdw oh that'd be cool, I've been wishing I could host bollux on gemini since it is gemini
2020-06-12 22:46:39 ⚡ makeworld afk
2020-06-12 22:51:01 xq oh, conman approves my ideas :D
2020-06-12 22:52:38 acdw oh nice! You already wrote it up :)
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2020-06-12 22:55:04 @tomasino the mailing list loves you
2020-06-12 22:55:56 xq well, we discussed the heavy parts already
2020-06-12 22:56:08 xq thoughts are there, only need to put it into words :D
2020-06-12 22:56:47 acdw So basically, TOFU but with pubkeys instead of certs?
2020-06-12 22:57:45 xq yeah
2020-06-12 22:57:54 acdw cool :)
2020-06-12 22:57:55 acdw o/
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2020-06-12 23:23:07 xq test 1 2
2020-06-12 23:27:58 makeworld Pong
2020-06-12 23:28:28 xq thanks :)
2020-06-12 23:28:33 xq migration of ZNC to a new server: successful
2020-06-12 23:29:58 xq *grin* tomorrow i can implement the TOFU stuff :)
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2020-06-13 00:08:07 xq whoopsies
2020-06-13 00:14:45 bard https://cybre.space/@grainloom/104333762177627370
2020-06-13 00:31:32 makeworld tomasino: Did you end up working more on that logo or do you want to publish it somewhere as is?
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2020-06-13 01:30:52 @tomasino Logo?
2020-06-13 01:31:37 @tomasino Was I working on a logo? Did I forget?
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2020-06-13 03:29:21 makeworld tomasino: The gemini logo?
2020-06-13 03:29:32 makeworld Please don't tell me I'm getting you confused with someone else..
2020-06-13 03:29:37 makeworld Sorry if so, yoinks
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2020-06-13 04:11:13 dozens spend some time tonight setting up my pod: gemini://breadpunk.club:1965/~bakersdozen/
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2020-06-13 04:40:15 dozens what's the noun for those who gemini?
2020-06-13 04:40:29 dozens astronauts?
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2020-06-13 05:35:50 Nalaph Out of curiousity, would there be any interest in a gemini server written in C#?
2020-06-13 05:36:46 Nalaph I know C# is generally a bit more "heavyweight" compared to the languages that currently have gemini servers written for them.
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2020-06-13 08:00:51 lukee Hi @Nalaph - yes I'd be interested in a Gemini server in c# if you're writing one.
2020-06-13 08:01:17 lukee My client GemiNaut is in C#
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2020-06-13 08:20:27 kensanata 🚀🚀
2020-06-13 08:41:02 @tomasino .net Core? Mono deployable?
2020-06-13 08:41:30 lukee why not
2020-06-13 08:41:57 @tomasino Then sure
2020-06-13 08:42:03 @tomasino :D
2020-06-13 08:42:21 @tomasino I mean, do it anyway however you like
2020-06-13 08:42:30 @tomasino It will get used
2020-06-13 08:43:44 @tomasino makeworld: not me, though I guess I could... But I think it was someone else in here
2020-06-13 08:45:33 lukee I think it was tiwesdaeg doing the logo
2020-06-13 08:49:19 lukee there are plenty of c# libraries to get started with for things like TLS, some from microsoft, others too
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2020-06-13 11:06:57 thombles alas. "Gemini: These are two signs that have a great tendency to bring out the worst in each other. Gemini sees Virgo as incredibly dull and boring while Virgo sees Gemini as too impractical and flighty. Virgo’s rigidity further clashes with the Geminian penchant for fickleness, often causing Gemini to look elsewhere when things begin to sour."
2020-06-13 11:09:18 thombles one hopes fickleness isn't a defining trait of the protocol :)
2020-06-13 11:17:55 lukee hopefully not a portent
2020-06-13 11:20:56 lukee actually it is probably the gemini protocol that is dull and boring
2020-06-13 11:21:00 lukee in a good way though...
2020-06-13 11:33:55 `epochbot merp. bunch of mailing-list to read
2020-06-13 11:34:03 `epochbot 637 new
2020-06-13 11:34:43 @tomasino ouch
2020-06-13 11:35:02 ⚡ thombles clicks mark as read
2020-06-13 11:37:16 thombles I found another esperantist via the GUS server list and we've been having an email discussion about what to actually call gemini. The options are weird
2020-06-13 11:37:54 thombles A direct translation of "twins" works except it becomes much more obviously plural than it is in english and sounds weird. "Twin" would be stranger
2020-06-13 11:38:54 thombles if you aim for something similar _sounding_ with a soft G, you get a word which would double as "a feminine groan", or with a hard G "a feminine gem(stone)"
2020-06-13 11:39:18 @tomasino does the constellation already have a name in esperanto?
2020-06-13 11:39:21 thombles I think I want to aim for a middle ground and just have a new word
2020-06-13 11:39:44 thombles Hmm good question
2020-06-13 11:40:03 @tomasino Ĝemeloj
2020-06-13 11:40:10 @tomasino looked it up
2020-06-13 11:40:18 thombles Yeah okay literally "twins"
2020-06-13 11:40:52 `epochbot I would have assumed it would count as a name
2020-06-13 11:41:32 `epochbot so wouldn't translate, and more likely just be pronounced as close as the language can phonetically
2020-06-13 11:41:32 @tomasino it appears to be the only constellation that is plural
2020-06-13 11:41:53 `epochbot like, is there something written in esperanto about the gemini program?
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2020-06-13 11:43:10 thombles in vikipedio for project gemini they ended up just writing "Gemini" as is through the text https://eo.wikipedia.org/wiki/Projekto_Gemini
2020-06-13 11:43:30 `epochbot that's what I was trying to find.
2020-06-13 11:43:36 `epochbot was already at the eo.wikipedia
2020-06-13 11:44:05 thombles It's okayish but kind of sad because you can't inflect it properly
2020-06-13 11:44:22 `epochbot on the talk page is there a discussion about attempting to translate it differently?
2020-06-13 11:44:39 thombles negatory, no discussion
2020-06-13 11:44:39 `epochbot (good thing the URLs are still in english)
2020-06-13 11:44:55 `epochbot oh well
2020-06-13 11:47:43 thombles could take a lead from interreto and call it ĝemelreto, which is kind of a nice pun "twin net"
2020-06-13 11:53:05 kensanata has quit (The TLS connection was non-properly terminated.)
2020-06-13 11:53:46 ~tiwesdaeg lukee: it was me. I was working with solderpunk on the design.
2020-06-13 12:04:47 `epochbot is there a place to test that my client is sending SNI?
2020-06-13 12:10:00 `epochbot got an error with AV-98
2020-06-13 12:10:12 `epochbot probably a locale problem on my computer
2020-06-13 12:10:49 `epochbot $ python av98.py
2020-06-13 12:10:49 `epochbot File "av98.py", line 843
2020-06-13 12:10:50 `epochbot SyntaxError: Non-ASCII character '\xe2' in file av98.py on line 843, but no encoding declared; see http://python.org/dev/peps/pep-0263/ for details
2020-06-13 12:13:52 `epochbot ah, looks like python on my desktop is python2. ew.
2020-06-13 12:21:22 @tomasino that would be an issue
2020-06-13 12:21:32 @tomasino python3 -m pip install AV-98
2020-06-13 12:32:36 ~tiwesdaeg lukee: https://ttm.sh/QBx.png
2020-06-13 12:32:45 ~tiwesdaeg That was the final edit
2020-06-13 12:34:29 lukee very nice.
2020-06-13 13:12:29 lukee Can we put that sticker up on our websites - what is its reuse status?
2020-06-13 13:19:32 ~tiwesdaeg it's a do whatever you want with it, but it's not my fault if you do bad things with it license
2020-06-13 13:19:58 ~tiwesdaeg I've got the SVG if you want it
2020-06-13 13:33:15 lukee somewhat ironic to put it on your website though!
2020-06-13 13:36:22 @tomasino like http://tomasino.sdf.org/ ?
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2020-06-13 13:42:39 solderpunk Ahoy!
2020-06-13 13:42:44 @tomasino hey!
2020-06-13 13:42:46 @tomasino welcome, buddy
2020-06-13 13:42:49 dkibi hoi
2020-06-13 13:42:59 ironzorg hi
2020-06-13 13:43:28 @tomasino how goes the series of tubes?
2020-06-13 13:44:20 dozens thombles: saluton, jen alia esperantisto! mdr
2020-06-13 13:44:31 solderpunk Doing my best to replace it with a series of smaller tubes!
2020-06-13 13:44:45 @tomasino smoltubez++
2020-06-13 13:45:22 solderpunk Tiny Tonka trucks you can dump *some* stuff on.
2020-06-13 13:45:31 dkibi https://designyoutrust.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/111-13.jpg
2020-06-13 13:46:01 ironzorg solderpunk: have you ever thought of a project idea/concept that would benefit most from Gemini's approach to the protocol (TOFU, small footprint etc.)? or you've never had a specific use-case in mind.
2020-06-13 13:46:03 @tomasino cthulu train
2020-06-13 13:47:13 solderpunk I guess the driving motivation was always just to enable something vaguely like the phlogosphere. But I'm definitely very interested in figuring out other things that it's a natural fit for.
2020-06-13 13:47:30 solderpunk There has been some talk of using it as a replacement for HTTP in small REST-like APIs.
2020-06-13 13:48:00 solderpunk Where TOFU is less the ideal than pre-shared client cert fingerprints.
2020-06-13 13:48:41 ironzorg right
2020-06-13 13:49:28 ironzorg it'd be good to find *something* that doesn't make Gemini sites look like more of the same (i.e. sed 's/HTTP/Gemini/')
2020-06-13 13:49:42 ironzorg I just have no imagination for that sort of thing.
2020-06-13 13:50:17 solderpunk Yeah, I totally agree. You can definitely do some whacky stuff with it. Using client certs and chaining status code 10 responses together you can basically do something a lot like a remote shell.
2020-06-13 13:50:25 solderpunk The TLS overhead would be pretty heavy, though.
2020-06-13 13:51:44 ironzorg :)
2020-06-13 13:53:42 solderpunk I am sure some creative people will come up with things to use it for which I never even imagined.
2020-06-13 13:54:09 xq hey solderpunk :)
2020-06-13 13:55:01 solderpunk Hey xq!
2020-06-13 13:55:26 @tomasino heyya!
2020-06-13 13:56:50 lukee hi solderpunk
2020-06-13 13:57:01 xq solderpunk: client certificate support in Kristall is implemented :)
2020-06-13 13:57:18 @tomasino i was playing around with fonts in kristall today. Got a nice new stylesheet going: https://ttm.sh/QID.kthm
2020-06-13 13:57:23 solderpunk Congrats! I got a brief look at how it works when I watched Tomasino's video last night.
2020-06-13 13:57:39 xq ah neat!
2020-06-13 13:57:54 @tomasino oh yeah, now you have a famous client from my tens of views!
2020-06-13 13:57:57 xq tomasino: i definitly need a quick theme import for Kristall
2020-06-13 13:58:03 solderpunk I am drafting the client cert related spec changes at the moment.
2020-06-13 13:58:19 solderpunk Are you currently differentiating between the different 6x statuses at all?
2020-06-13 13:58:27 @tomasino oh that's good. maybe that'll slow the firehose on the ML a bit
2020-06-13 13:58:28 xq only in theory :D
2020-06-13 13:58:37 xq well, the code is, but it's not visible for the user yet
2020-06-13 13:58:51 xq i think i'll put a message what kind of cert the server expects
2020-06-13 13:58:57 kayw the mailing list has been waaay to active for me to understand
2020-06-13 13:59:04 solderpunk The firehose cannot be stopped :p It is self-perpetuating.
2020-06-13 13:59:11 @tomasino haha
2020-06-13 13:59:37 @tomasino it's been a few days. We're due for someone to recommend inline linking again
2020-06-13 13:59:46 jan creating client certificates in a portable way does not seem easy in rust :(
2020-06-13 14:00:05 jan i really love the way kristall handles client certificates!
2020-06-13 14:00:23 xq <tomasino> it's been a few days. We're due for someone to recommend inline linking again
2020-06-13 14:00:24 xq lol :D
2020-06-13 14:00:25 @tomasino i do too, though i'll feel better about it when i can export it adn back it up somewhere
2020-06-13 14:00:42 @tomasino but thanks for reminding me to water my plant
2020-06-13 14:00:54 xq jan: thanks!
2020-06-13 14:01:03 xq right now, you cannot import/export those certs
2020-06-13 14:01:17 xq but just because i haven't had the time to implement it properly
2020-06-13 14:01:30 jan i'm not sure how i can handle this in ncgopher
2020-06-13 14:01:49 jan import would be the easiest solution
2020-06-13 14:02:22 jan but from a users point of view, generation directly in ncgopher would be nice
2020-06-13 14:03:31 xq yeah
2020-06-13 14:03:42 xq especially for transient certs it's the thing you want
2020-06-13 14:04:12 admicos has quit (Client exited)
2020-06-13 14:06:10 solderpunk I wonder how brutal I should be in trimming this stuff back...is just 3 status codes enough? 60 = Gimme a cert, 61 = That cert's not authorised for this particular resource, 62 = That cert is expired or otherwise invalid in some way not specific to the requested resource.
2020-06-13 14:06:55 @tomasino if there was a 4th code, what would it say?
2020-06-13 14:07:19 @tomasino your cert makes you look fat
2020-06-13 14:07:23 @tomasino ?
2020-06-13 14:07:52 xq solderpunk: sounds good
2020-06-13 14:08:06 solderpunk I wonder if it's a good idea to add two extra ones to disambiguate 60 a bit - making it clear whether a pre-authorised cert whose fingerprint is on a list is required, or whether you can just generate something on the spot now (with the lifespan up to you) and it'll be good.
2020-06-13 14:08:16 xq hmm
2020-06-13 14:08:24 xq i think that's not a bad idea
2020-06-13 14:08:34 solderpunk Or whether the combination of the META text with a 60, plus context and convention, are enough to make it obvious.
2020-06-13 14:08:34 xq something like "transient cert required" isn't that bad
2020-06-13 14:08:50 @tomasino would it be the opposite?
2020-06-13 14:08:52 xq maybe?
2020-06-13 14:09:02 @tomasino "any cert required" vs "long-lived cert suggested"
2020-06-13 14:09:48 solderpunk But there are long-lived certs you just make up (like Astrobotany) and those that are pre-approved (like if you're restricting access to something to people in a particular group).
2020-06-13 14:10:05 solderpunk That's the distinction people need to be clear on to make a good informed choice.
2020-06-13 14:10:31 @tomasino hmmm
2020-06-13 14:10:48 @tomasino is that information designed to be fed back to the user?
2020-06-13 14:11:19 solderpunk I think it should be? If a server is checking certs against a list of authorised certs, people are wasting their time generating a new one.
2020-06-13 14:11:26 xq it definitly should be
2020-06-13 14:12:03 @tomasino is that message uniform to the code, or is it something the server will want to communicate specifically to the user about
2020-06-13 14:12:08 @tomasino like, the difference between:
2020-06-13 14:12:14 @tomasino "Authorization required" or...
2020-06-13 14:12:27 @tomasino "To enter this section you'll need to request a cert from the admin"
2020-06-13 14:13:48 solderpunk Maybe I'm over thinking this. I imagine most resources that are behind a certificate whitelist will probably not be publically linked to.
2020-06-13 14:14:01 solderpunk Either that, or the entire server will be, which makes it pretty clear what is going on.
2020-06-13 14:14:15 @tomasino you don't think they'll have something like astrobotany where there's a link to the app area
2020-06-13 14:14:22 @tomasino or a "Enter the restricted zone!"
2020-06-13 14:14:46 solderpunk Well, apps like astrobotany are using a whitelist, they'll just accept a cert you make up on the spot.
2020-06-13 14:14:50 ironzorg 60=cert required; 61=I don't accept this cert - EOF
2020-06-13 14:14:58 solderpunk So there's no risk of disappointment or confusion.
2020-06-13 14:14:58 @tomasino if i were going to run a private forum, for instance, i'd have a public page about the forum with info on what it's about, how to contact peolpe and get access... and then a login/enter link
2020-06-13 14:15:11 solderpunk Hmm.
2020-06-13 14:15:36 solderpunk Okay, but it should be very obvious from context, then, that you can't just make up a cert on the spot.
2020-06-13 14:15:43 solderpunk There's no need to also convey it in the status code.
2020-06-13 14:15:49 @tomasino cool
2020-06-13 14:15:54 @tomasino i guess you have your answer then. :)
2020-06-13 14:15:58 solderpunk I think so.
2020-06-13 14:16:24 solderpunk Best, anyway, to strip it back maximally now and add more later if there are clear problems.
2020-06-13 14:17:49 solderpunk ironzorg, I do think it's useful to provide *some* information on why a cert isn't being accepted.
2020-06-13 14:18:07 @tomasino honestly, if it leads to people just having a bit of text above the link saying "you'll need to negotiate a cert with the admin before you can proceed" that's not a bad thing at all
2020-06-13 14:18:26 ironzorg there are so many reasons why a cert wouldn't be accepted, I don't know if it's worth it having all of them in the protocol
2020-06-13 14:19:41 solderpunk I agree there's no need to give them all their own code. But making it clear if the problem is with the certificate itself, or is specific to the particular resource, seems like a good idea.
2020-06-13 14:19:58 ironzorg fair enough
2020-06-13 14:21:13 @tomasino so it distinguishes between "the client provided something that isn't valid" vs "the server has said what you supplied isn't sufficient for this action" ?
2020-06-13 14:22:04 solderpunk Yeah, basically.
2020-06-13 14:22:17 @tomasino what would client authors do differently based on that result?
2020-06-13 14:22:52 solderpunk "Your driver's license / passport has expired" vs "This driver's license is fine and I believe your name really is Tomasino, but your name isn't on my list of awesome people to let in the door".
2020-06-13 14:23:31 solderpunk They could prompt to generate a new cert, if the problem is with the cert itself.
2020-06-13 14:23:46 @tomasino i love having the info as a user, but that's where a message that's variable becomes useful. A separate code is useful to the client itself. What would it's different action be based on those two scenarios? Prompt the user for a different cert?
2020-06-13 14:24:47 @tomasino not a criticism of the idea, just honestly don't know the answer
2020-06-13 14:25:49 ⚡ tomasino listens from over there as he makes a kid lunch
2020-06-13 14:27:23 solderpunk Bloody hell! It's hard to be motivated to hack on Molly Brown when people are churning out stuff like https://github.com/pitr/gig!
2020-06-13 14:31:41 @tomasino Molly is still lovely
2020-06-13 14:33:00 xq oh wow
2020-06-13 14:33:13 ▬▬▶ rb100 has joined #gemini
2020-06-13 14:33:22 xq looks like i don't need to write my own server but just learn go :D
2020-06-13 14:33:29 xq (wanted to do that anyways)
2020-06-13 14:35:21 solderpunk I really want to learn it properly, I've just been picking it up as I go along working on Molly and Shizaru.
2020-06-13 14:35:34 solderpunk Both of which probably look very amateurish to somebody who knows what they're doing.
2020-06-13 14:35:51 solderpunk But I quite enjoy the language so far. I'll be very happy if they get setuid working properly.
2020-06-13 14:36:39 xq hehe :)
2020-06-13 14:37:21 xq btw, i'm brainstorming about some gemini-based game :)
2020-06-13 14:38:04 @tomasino Door game style like we were talking about?
2020-06-13 14:38:46 xq probably, yes
2020-06-13 14:38:50 xq nothing too magic
2020-06-13 14:39:18 @tomasino now that it's been explained to me a bit more, i think i want to explore creating more robust utf-8 art
2020-06-13 14:39:24 @tomasino like the ansi of old
2020-06-13 14:40:13 rb100 has quit (Ping timeout: 120 seconds)
2020-06-13 14:40:24 xq go for it!
2020-06-13 14:41:18 solderpunk Good ANSI art is really great.
2020-06-13 14:41:28 xq yep
2020-06-13 14:41:35 solderpunk I'm pretty sure the same, or very similar, characters are available in Unicode.
2020-06-13 14:41:36 xq the demoscener approves
2020-06-13 14:41:45 solderpunk Oh, of course.
2020-06-13 14:41:51 solderpunk I mean, it's not as good as PETSCII :p
2020-06-13 14:41:59 xq solderpunk: afaik unicode has *all* symbols available in the ansi codepages
2020-06-13 14:42:07 xq https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Box-drawing_character
2020-06-13 14:42:31 xq ╒══════════╪╪╦╦╦
2020-06-13 14:42:31 solderpunk Nice!
2020-06-13 14:42:35 xq yeah
2020-06-13 14:42:40 xq wikipedia is really awesome on unicode blocks
2020-06-13 14:42:54 solderpunk Oh, and the "Block Elements" look a little PETSCIIy, too.
2020-06-13 14:43:17 @tomasino monodraw has most of what i need, but it's mac only
2020-06-13 14:43:33 @tomasino i'd like to add color options and a way to save it out with escape codes
2020-06-13 14:43:52 ⚡ tomasino tosses it on the pile of hobby ideas
2020-06-13 14:47:11 ▬▬▶ rb100 has joined #gemini
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2020-06-13 15:03:26 makeworld I don't totally get why everyone keeps extending gemini to do writes
2020-06-13 15:04:11 xq how do you author your site?
2020-06-13 15:04:17 ironzorg solderpunk: so what's more likely going to happen with the "response of the body in the header" issue?
2020-06-13 15:04:55 solderpunk Sorry, I don't follow you. Which issue?
2020-06-13 15:05:12 makeworld xq: Personally? Over SSH or NFS
2020-06-13 15:05:36 ironzorg solderpunk: "Wide load" status code(s)
2020-06-13 15:05:45 solderpunk Oh!
2020-06-13 15:05:53 solderpunk I don't think I'll bother.
2020-06-13 15:06:20 xq makeworld: that's my current way of authoriing as well. but i find it appealing to be able to just klick on "edit" in Kristall and push an update to the site
2020-06-13 15:06:36 makeworld I guess... It just seems a bit much
2020-06-13 15:06:47 solderpunk I am really torn on that issue.
2020-06-13 15:06:57 solderpunk I totally get the philosophy behind it.
2020-06-13 15:07:15 lukee also not every end user who wants to write in gemini will be a sysadmin familiar with ssh and the rest
2020-06-13 15:07:16 solderpunk If publishing to Gemini requires you to get ssh of sftp access to a server and push your files, 99% of people will never be able to use it.
2020-06-13 15:07:32 makeworld Hmm yeah
2020-06-13 15:07:36 solderpunk If you can do it from within the client with no technical skills, it's accessible to anybody.
2020-06-13 15:07:52 lukee like the original wiki by ward cunningham
2020-06-13 15:08:01 solderpunk Which could really, dramatically shift the project's destiny.
2020-06-13 15:08:02 ironzorg the idea of a progress bar in case of a big download sounded good though
2020-06-13 15:08:05 solderpunk On the other hand...
2020-06-13 15:08:25 solderpunk Being able to publish that way could foster a culture of dependency.
2020-06-13 15:08:43 solderpunk It will probably lead quite quickly to commercial hosting services.
2020-06-13 15:08:54 ironzorg I can see somebody downloading a single-page documentation file for an entire framework over 4G :)
2020-06-13 15:09:37 lukee yes the question is who is it for?
2020-06-13 15:09:45 solderpunk Progress bars for big downloads are a good idea, but I don't think they need the 2x codes to facilitate it. Once a download exceeds a few KB, the client can just start drawing some kind of animationto make it clear something is happening.
2020-06-13 15:10:18 ironzorg you could have chunked replies too :p
2020-06-13 15:10:29 ironzorg the server would decide what constitutes a "big reply"
2020-06-13 15:11:01 solderpunk Commercial hosts would probably provide their own clients, to make things easier, and then they could start support extensions to text/gemini, etc., etc.
2020-06-13 15:11:32 makeworld Uh oh
2020-06-13 15:11:42 solderpunk I dunno, maybe that's paranoid.
2020-06-13 15:11:50 lukee hmm mm
2020-06-13 15:12:02 solderpunk I just really like the idea of people being self sufficient online.
2020-06-13 15:12:15 lukee the commercial internet already exists - they can have as many adverts and tracing as they need
2020-06-13 15:12:29 lukee we can keep it text focussed
2020-06-13 15:12:42 lukee which is not easily monetisable
2020-06-13 15:13:10 solderpunk I mean, that's the other issue, about making it accessible even to not very technical people: how many not very technical people are going to have *any* interest in choosing Gemini over the web?
2020-06-13 15:14:02 ironzorg those who don't have 4GB of RAM required to run a browser nowadays!
2020-06-13 15:14:48 xq solderpunk: i actually think there are a lot of people that don't know *yet* that they would rather like gemini instead of the web
2020-06-13 15:15:11 makeworld Yeah that's fair
2020-06-13 15:15:12 xq the one thing missing is a good android client and some interesting content to read :)
2020-06-13 15:15:22 lukee writers
2020-06-13 15:15:22 xq because gemini is much more suited for mobile than the web
2020-06-13 15:15:29 makeworld Did you see the ml post about a new Android client
2020-06-13 15:15:34 lukee people who want a simpler life
2020-06-13 15:15:37 lukee better performance
2020-06-13 15:15:41 lukee less tracking...
2020-06-13 15:15:42 xq makeworld: yes, haven#t had the time to check it out
2020-06-13 15:15:48 makeworld Me neither
2020-06-13 15:16:02 makeworld lukee: Yes yes yes! I think it could be really attractive
2020-06-13 15:16:18 solderpunk Nor I, but I'm excited, the other Android client is nice but could easily be improved upon.
2020-06-13 15:16:35 makeworld Now I'm thinking of my gf who's somewhat interested, but on Windows and stuff
2020-06-13 15:16:46 xq i have to prepare a talk for tomorrow, but i'll try to make Kristall also available on Android
2020-06-13 15:17:30 makeworld But now I can tell her to use Geminaut, so that's cool
2020-06-13 15:17:36 makeworld Woah really?
2020-06-13 15:17:48 solderpunk makeworld: After install GemiNaut on windows, my wife is also somewhat interested, so I'm very susceptible to this idea of making it more easily accessible to people who aren't comfortable with scp/sftp/etc.
2020-06-13 15:18:19 solderpunk I'm just a little irrationally worried, this feels *so* much like we are just racing down the old tracks laid out by the web.
2020-06-13 15:19:42 lukee we just need some clear blue water between us and the web.
2020-06-13 15:19:43 ~tiwesdaeg xq: did you figure out the qt issues?
2020-06-13 15:19:49 xq nah, not yet
2020-06-13 15:19:57 makeworld Like by making things too easy solderpunk? Worried about eternal september?
2020-06-13 15:19:57 lukee them: inline images,
2020-06-13 15:20:00 lukee inline scripts
2020-06-13 15:20:03 lukee cookies
2020-06-13 15:20:04 xq i want to build qt for android not from AUR but by hand
2020-06-13 15:20:08 lukee incoherent UI
2020-06-13 15:20:10 lukee us...
2020-06-13 15:20:58 makeworld solderpunk: I think the protocol actually limits the eternal september bc there's not much room for advancement of crazy stuff
2020-06-13 15:21:26 solderpunk Less eternal september, more excessive reliance on third parties offering services beyond the user's control.
2020-06-13 15:22:18 solderpunk And the centralisation that tends to follow from that.
2020-06-13 15:22:35 makeworld Ah I see
2020-06-13 15:22:48 makeworld Well most users will need to rely on someone providing a server
2020-06-13 15:23:02 makeworld Not much getting around that
2020-06-13 15:23:18 makeworld But ideally we can make it like fedi
2020-06-13 15:23:24 makeworld With many server options
2020-06-13 15:23:45 makeworld You should create a "Hosting Options" page
2020-06-13 15:25:02 makeworld With links to all the servers that offer space and a sentence about each of them
2020-06-13 15:25:08 makeworld Maybe I should do it, haha
2020-06-13 15:25:11 solderpunk True, in this day and age of cheap VPSes and RPis, it's much, much easier for individuals or small clubs etc. to put up hosts than it was in the early days of blogging services.
2020-06-13 15:25:22 solderpunk There is such a list in the FAQ, near the end.
2020-06-13 15:25:26 solderpunk Maybe section 3.3? I forget.
2020-06-13 15:25:31 solderpunk But it's a short list so far.
2020-06-13 15:25:36 xq i think self-hosting on an RPI is too much for for all non-technical people
2020-06-13 15:25:56 makeworld Ah I see
2020-06-13 15:26:01 xq as much as it appeals to me, you have to learn more than just "how to click a website and drop in some stuff via windows explorer + ftp"
2020-06-13 15:26:22 makeworld xq: Yes, but I think sp's point was that for the technical users, it's much easier to set up hosts for others to use then it was before
2020-06-13 15:27:21 xq yeah probably
2020-06-13 15:27:36 xq i hope so :)
2020-06-13 15:27:39 solderpunk Right, which means we have a much better chance of ending up with thousands of small providers of easy Gemini hosting, like the fediverse, rather than a handful of massive ones (like Wordpress, Blogspot, etc.)
2020-06-13 15:28:13 makeworld fingers crossed
2020-06-13 15:28:43 xq i'm tempted to provide some user space on random-projects.net as well
2020-06-13 15:28:50 xq have to plan it through though
2020-06-13 15:31:23 @tomasino i suppose if those systems all existed it would be easy to sign up for a service with one, exchange cert goodness, and then do everything for your site via your client
2020-06-13 15:31:31 @tomasino edit and view both
2020-06-13 15:31:34 @tomasino that's kinda neat
2020-06-13 15:31:54 ironzorg somebody could extend the protocol to make a federated network of Gemini servers… for whatever reason
2020-06-13 15:32:06 @tomasino i mean... isn't it already?
2020-06-13 15:32:16 @tomasino we talk to each other via an established protocol
2020-06-13 15:32:25 @tomasino and anyone can run a node
2020-06-13 15:32:47 ironzorg Gemini servers do not communicate with each other, that would also create tons of problems
2020-06-13 15:33:15 @tomasino gopher://gopher.black/1/phlog/20180627-federation-and-gopher - relevant musics when it was gopher as the topic
2020-06-13 15:34:05 solderpunk I mean, Gemini servers *could* talk with one another.
2020-06-13 15:34:18 solderpunk In fact, the "upload" problem is solved in that case.
2020-06-13 15:34:31 solderpunk They can just pass URLs between each other.
2020-06-13 15:35:08 solderpunk Like, you could build any kind of P2P network on top of it, just like you could build one on top of HTTPS.
2020-06-13 15:36:08 ironzorg yup
2020-06-13 15:36:37 ironzorg you could run a mailing list without SMTP on that :p
2020-06-13 15:39:03 solderpunk At last!
2020-06-13 15:40:08 solderpunk IMHO the URL passing approach is *way* more elegant than the proposed upload extensions. It's just a shame that somehow we *still* all live behind IPv4 NATs so this doesn't work for "normal" people.
2020-06-13 15:40:33 solderpunk Hopefully that will change one day - which perhaps argues in favour of leaving the extensions as separate extensions, so we can leave them behind one day.
2020-06-13 15:40:39 makeworld Yeah, I was thinking about URL passing
2020-06-13 15:40:57 solderpunk Btw, I love the heck out of the idea of calling the upload helper extension "Titan", if whoever suggested that is here.
2020-06-13 15:42:46 @tomasino so you mean that if i want to edit a page, my client will fetch it, store it temporarily, make it editable to me, and serve it back as a gemini page with a URL @ my current IP on some user-space port... and when i "save" i'm actually transmitting an upload request to the server that points back to the URL of my temporarily staged document so the server can fetch it and replace its
2020-06-13 15:42:46 @tomasino copy?
2020-06-13 15:42:56 @tomasino or did i just massively misread what you're talking about with URL passing
2020-06-13 15:43:20 lukee like a "pull request"
2020-06-13 15:44:00 solderpunk No, you pretty much nailed it.
2020-06-13 15:44:23 solderpunk To upload something you serve it yourself, using a random and short-lived URL, which you pass to the server you want to upload to.
2020-06-13 15:44:38 lukee still IP6 is always just 2 years till total adoption...
2020-06-13 15:44:40 @tomasino okay, i ... actually love that
2020-06-13 15:44:45 solderpunk Me too!
2020-06-13 15:44:54 lukee I think it is nice
2020-06-13 15:44:56 solderpunk Like, we could even just use status code 12 for it.
2020-06-13 15:45:01 makeworld It's great, but it won't work for most users so I think it's a no go from the start
2020-06-13 15:45:11 solderpunk And even in dumb clients, you could just paste the URL into the query form.
2020-06-13 15:45:39 @tomasino if your client didn't support it people could write separate upload/replace utilities pretty easily
2020-06-13 15:45:52 @tomasino provide it the destination URL, your source URL, and a client cert that validates it
2020-06-13 15:45:53 solderpunk Yeah, you could totally put a smooth UI around it.
2020-06-13 15:45:55 makeworld But most users won't have a public IP address
2020-06-13 15:46:00 solderpunk Exactly.
2020-06-13 15:46:02 solderpunk For now.
2020-06-13 15:46:13 makeworld For the foreseeable future
2020-06-13 15:46:17 @tomasino proxy push or something something
2020-06-13 15:46:18 solderpunk But it works fantastic for inter-server communication, like in the P2P network idea discussed above.
2020-06-13 15:46:21 @tomasino ttm.sh style
2020-06-13 15:46:32 makeworld Yeah between servers it's pretty cool
2020-06-13 15:46:46 makeworld But for most users you're gonna want some sort of write protocol
2020-06-13 15:46:52 solderpunk Agreed.
2020-06-13 15:47:03 solderpunk I just think maybe it should be a separate optional extension.
2020-06-13 15:47:24 solderpunk So that One Happy Day when we all have public IPv6 addresses up the wazoo, we can leave it behind, and do the elegant URL passing thing.
2020-06-13 15:47:48 lukee t+2 years for any value of t?
2020-06-13 15:47:53 @tomasino yep
2020-06-13 15:48:06 @tomasino vodafone doesn't offer ipv6 here
2020-06-13 15:48:15 @tomasino i believe verizon still doesn't to most markets in the US
2020-06-13 15:48:15 solderpunk Rather than permanently uglying up the core spec forever in order to work around an embarrassing shortcoming of the current internet.
2020-06-13 15:48:44 @tomasino i think if you do your fancy URL passing thing now, the ugly would be less ugly as people just write some proxy pushers
2020-06-13 15:48:48 lukee I dont see why it makes the spec ugly, but each to their own
2020-06-13 15:48:56 @tomasino as opposed to a +write
2020-06-13 15:49:19 makeworld But proxy pushers centralize things
2020-06-13 15:49:51 @tomasino well, sorta, but not really
2020-06-13 15:49:53 solderpunk Well, small specs are always prettier than large specs. :)
2020-06-13 15:50:16 lukee adopted specs are always better than niche ones
2020-06-13 15:50:19 lukee :)
2020-06-13 15:50:20 @tomasino you can proxy your content anywhere. it just needs to be at a URL when you tell the server where to grab it
2020-06-13 15:50:33 solderpunk Touché!
2020-06-13 15:51:26 @tomasino oh, easy peasy... just do it all over tor. :)
2020-06-13 15:51:32 @tomasino bam, onioned
2020-06-13 15:52:24 @tomasino but yeah, seriously... nice ideas guys
2020-06-13 15:52:46 solderpunk Or that Yggdrasil thing.
2020-06-13 15:52:56 solderpunk Which I will find time to play with if you guys ever leave me alone :p
2020-06-13 15:53:05 @tomasino that'll never happen
2020-06-13 15:53:08 lukee :D
2020-06-13 15:53:12 solderpunk Haha, you're right.
2020-06-13 15:53:13 ⚡ tomasino pokes solderpunk
2020-06-13 15:53:16 solderpunk I am bound to the firehose.
2020-06-13 15:53:31 @tomasino https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXc5ltzKq3Y
2020-06-13 15:54:13 makeworld Yggdrasil is very cool
2020-06-13 15:54:39 ~tiwesdaeg speaking of easy to spin up VPSs, I just setup a $15/yr vps to try out an irc bouncer
2020-06-13 15:54:39 solderpunk xj9 is/was running a Gemini server on it.
2020-06-13 15:54:58 @tomasino $15/yr? wow, nice
2020-06-13 15:55:01 ~tiwesdaeg I even bought a .de domain since they are so cheap
2020-06-13 15:55:19 ~tiwesdaeg it's 1gb ram 15gb drive
2020-06-13 15:55:30 @tomasino i'm sitting on 1338.ninja if anyone has an idea for it
2020-06-13 15:55:36 @tomasino it's leet++
2020-06-13 15:56:03 ~tiwesdaeg I used to work on a Coast Guard ship with the hull number 1335
2020-06-13 15:56:12 ~tiwesdaeg I always felt it was just 2 numbers away from leetness
2020-06-13 15:56:13 makeworld tiwesdaeg: What host is that?
2020-06-13 15:56:16 solderpunk Haha, so close.
2020-06-13 15:56:21 companion_cube is it wrong to think of gemini as a sort of hobby? :)
2020-06-13 15:56:32 makeworld No
2020-06-13 15:56:33 ~tiwesdaeg desivps.com
2020-06-13 15:56:39 solderpunk Sometimes it feels more like a job :p
2020-06-13 15:56:50 ~tiwesdaeg they're based out of india I think
2020-06-13 15:57:02 ~tiwesdaeg this was a lowendbox link
2020-06-13 15:57:02 solderpunk But, no, I think that's a great attitude.
2020-06-13 15:57:07 makeworld Which one did you go for?
2020-06-13 15:57:08 companion_cube heh, but do y'all hope for it to become more widely used?
2020-06-13 15:57:11 makeworld Yeah
2020-06-13 15:57:13 ~tiwesdaeg let me find it
2020-06-13 15:57:35 ~tiwesdaeg I needed kvm with custom iso option so I could install freebsd
2020-06-13 15:57:35 companion_cube I wonder where the cursor between simplicity of implem, and features, lies, then
2020-06-13 15:57:55 solderpunk It's a very tricky question.
2020-06-13 15:58:32 @tomasino i guess it's an opinionated place
2020-06-13 15:58:49 companion_cube say, if the gemini text format was replaced with markdown
2020-06-13 15:58:54 companion_cube (or a simple subset of it)
2020-06-13 15:59:02 ~tiwesdaeg makeworld: https://lowendbox.com/blog/desivps-1gb-kvm-vps-from-15-year-in-los-angeles/
2020-06-13 15:59:15 makeworld Huh thanks
2020-06-13 15:59:23 solderpunk People who want more than text/gemini offers can just use Gemini to serve markdown, though.
2020-06-13 15:59:28 solderpunk With the appropriate MIME type.
2020-06-13 15:59:34 companion_cube it's a question of culture
2020-06-13 15:59:35 @tomasino yep yep text/markdown and be done
2020-06-13 15:59:47 companion_cube you can send other things than html on browsers, yet it's the default
2020-06-13 15:59:53 companion_cube receive*
2020-06-13 16:00:01 ~tiwesdaeg I have one markdown file on libraryoferis.org
2020-06-13 16:00:12 solderpunk Sure.
2020-06-13 16:00:15 @tomasino kensanata serves almost everything in markdown, i believe
2020-06-13 16:00:21 solderpunk And the cultural default of Gemini is radical simplicity.
2020-06-13 16:00:22 makeworld Not anymore
2020-06-13 16:00:23 ~tiwesdaeg kristall displays it almost correctly ;P
2020-06-13 16:00:27 @tomasino ahh, he transformed it?
2020-06-13 16:00:29 makeworld He converted a lot of it
2020-06-13 16:00:31 makeworld I think so
2020-06-13 16:00:33 @tomasino cool cool
2020-06-13 16:00:49 companion_cube but is radical simplicity compatible with adoption? :)
2020-06-13 16:00:52 solderpunk Haha, Gemtext has conquered the inferior markup :p
2020-06-13 16:00:55 solderpunk Perhaps not.
2020-06-13 16:01:10 solderpunk Mass appeal and wide adoption was never an explicit goal.
2020-06-13 16:01:14 @tomasino i'll tell you what... i was clicking around fedi early this morning and found a blind woman chatting with friends about Gemini asking questions and already going deep into accessibility questions.
2020-06-13 16:01:28 solderpunk I never even dreamed of it until these wiki-geeks turned up :p
2020-06-13 16:01:43 solderpunk Wow, really?
2020-06-13 16:01:44 @tomasino her essential features list is far different than some we've had on the ML
2020-06-13 16:01:45 @tomasino yep
2020-06-13 16:01:53 makeworld There are only 6 markdown files on all of Gemini now, according to GUS
2020-06-13 16:02:04 makeworld Thanks to kensanata they used to outnumber the gemini ones lol
2020-06-13 16:02:06 @tomasino "gemtext" is hat official now?
2020-06-13 16:02:09 lukee What does a blind person want from Gemini?
2020-06-13 16:02:24 solderpunk Eh, I haven't announced it, but it's stuck in my mind.
2020-06-13 16:02:27 solderpunk Yeah, how are we doing so far?
2020-06-13 16:02:30 @tomasino semantics and alt text
2020-06-13 16:02:33 makeworld tomasino: Got a link? That's cool
2020-06-13 16:02:33 @tomasino it's got #1 already
2020-06-13 16:02:38 @tomasino and #2 is ....
2020-06-13 16:02:41 ⚡ tomasino looks at solderpunk
2020-06-13 16:02:44 solderpunk Coming! I swear!
2020-06-13 16:02:46 @tomasino :D
2020-06-13 16:03:30 solderpunk One week until the first anniversary of Gemini, btw, if anybody wants to stock up on booze for the party in advance :p
2020-06-13 16:03:54 lukee Did anyone say party?!
2020-06-13 16:04:07 lukee Should totally do that
2020-06-13 16:04:35 @tomasino it started in this thread: https://mastodon.sdf.org/web/statuses/104333833098927140
2020-06-13 16:05:01 @tomasino ooh, sounds like perfect time for a spec freeze
2020-06-13 16:05:23 solderpunk Good point!
2020-06-13 16:05:45 @tomasino i'm trying to find the right lady
2020-06-13 16:05:55 @tomasino she's not in that thread directly but was talking to one of the other 2 people in the thread
2020-06-13 16:06:04 @tomasino it was easier on my phone in bed clicking around
2020-06-13 16:06:12 @tomasino they weren't hashtagging
2020-06-13 16:06:13 makeworld I emailed Natalie about updating the GUS code, with luck she will
2020-06-13 16:06:22 @tomasino GUS is really cool
2020-06-13 16:06:27 makeworld She told me a while ago that she forgets to keep it updated haha
2020-06-13 16:06:29 lukee @tomasino: thanks - seems like the alt text is the one most wanted
2020-06-13 16:06:33 makeworld But I definitely want to hack on it
2020-06-13 16:06:42 lukee oh ok
2020-06-13 16:06:49 @tomasino but yes, it is
2020-06-13 16:06:57 solderpunk GUS is better than any of us deserve.
2020-06-13 16:07:01 @tomasino with that in place gemtext is 100% accessible
2020-06-13 16:07:16 lukee No one has tried to SEO on GUS yet anyway :)
2020-06-13 16:07:29 @tomasino naughty lukee
2020-06-13 16:07:47 solderpunk I really think not making use of the link graph for GUS ranking was the right decision.
2020-06-13 16:07:55 solderpunk It totally disincentivises link spamming.
2020-06-13 16:08:02 makeworld How does it rank, actually?
2020-06-13 16:08:06 @tomasino magic
2020-06-13 16:08:24 makeworld Well because she hasn't pushed the code, yeah
2020-06-13 16:08:25 makeworld Lol
2020-06-13 16:08:48 @tomasino doesn't she go by Pendragon?
2020-06-13 16:09:02 @tomasino totally a sorceress
2020-06-13 16:09:02 lukee No, but someone could still dictionary bomb GUS with a million pages
2020-06-13 16:09:12 makeworld I mean natpen is her handle, that's just her last name I think
2020-06-13 16:09:27 @tomasino ahha
2020-06-13 16:09:34 @tomasino what an awesome last name
2020-06-13 16:09:36 lukee but we're still at the stage they could be manually removed as a bad actor
2020-06-13 16:09:37 @tomasino not much to live up to there
2020-06-13 16:09:38 makeworld I know right
2020-06-13 16:09:50 makeworld First thing I thought haha
2020-06-13 16:10:29 solderpunk It uses TF-IDF: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tf%E2%80%93idf
2020-06-13 16:10:41 solderpunk As far as I know.
2020-06-13 16:11:06 @tomasino oh, that's smart
2020-06-13 16:12:01 makeworld Hmm very cool
2020-06-13 16:12:07 makeworld Never heard of that, I'll read
2020-06-13 16:12:40 solderpunk It's a pretty standard tool in the information retrieval world.
2020-06-13 16:12:53 @tomasino xq: i just ran into a feature request in kristall! "ctrl-f"
2020-06-13 16:13:01 lukee It generally shows up the right thing
2020-06-13 16:13:18 @tomasino i searched superman and my essays rightfully came up first
2020-06-13 16:13:20 solderpunk Big yes to ctrl-F.
2020-06-13 16:13:32 solderpunk Actually, that reminds me.
2020-06-13 16:13:36 lukee xq: I already have it in GemiNaut (well the rendering front end does it for free)
2020-06-13 16:13:45 @tomasino awesome
2020-06-13 16:14:03 @tomasino i'm mostly using 4 clients: av98 & bollux on my tildes, and castor & kristall on my local
2020-06-13 16:14:18 @tomasino i need to build one of teh android ones
2020-06-13 16:14:19 ~tiwesdaeg how about alt+<== so my mouse button works to go back
2020-06-13 16:14:24 @tomasino i don't like using the proxies
2020-06-13 16:14:26 makeworld I tend to just stick with Bombadillo because it's easy to hop into the terminal
2020-06-13 16:14:33 solderpunk Some way to specify a number of characters to wrap up, and centering the text, would make Kristall much nicer to use on wide monitors.
2020-06-13 16:14:39 makeworld But Kristall is nice, I should use it more
2020-06-13 16:14:47 solderpunk I know you can set a margin in the preferenes, but it adds space at the *top*, as well.
2020-06-13 16:14:54 makeworld Mostly I'm just happy with how well Gemini lends itself to terminal usage
2020-06-13 16:15:11 makeworld tomasino: Share the binary if you build it?
2020-06-13 16:15:26 @tomasino kristall?
2020-06-13 16:16:04 @tomasino https://ttm.sh/QIE.bin
2020-06-13 16:16:06 @tomasino there you go
2020-06-13 16:16:13 @tomasino rename it to kristall
2020-06-13 16:16:22 makeworld I meant deedum
2020-06-13 16:16:28 makeworld Android clients
2020-06-13 16:16:30 @tomasino oooooooh
2020-06-13 16:16:31 @tomasino yes yes
2020-06-13 16:16:38 @tomasino okay, lemme give it a try
2020-06-13 16:16:43 @tomasino crap, anyone have the link handy
2020-06-13 16:16:47 makeworld I have a Waweic binary somewhere if anyone wants it, but development seesm to have stopped
2020-06-13 16:16:50 makeworld https://github.com/snoe/deedum
2020-06-13 16:17:03 @tomasino grazie
2020-06-13 16:18:20 solderpunk Last I spoke to the author of Waweic, they had put it on the back burner because they were studying for some upcoming exams.
2020-06-13 16:18:25 makeworld I think I'll try myself too
2020-06-13 16:18:28 makeworld Ah fair enough
2020-06-13 16:18:30 solderpunk But they said that were interested in picking it back up afterwards.
2020-06-13 16:18:33 makeworld Glad to hear it's still in their mind
2020-06-13 16:18:51 solderpunk I asked if they would be interested in putting it on F-Droid one day, and they said they definitely wanted to.
2020-06-13 16:18:55 solderpunk So, hopefully that comes to pass.
2020-06-13 16:19:06 ⚡ tomasino installs flutter
2020-06-13 16:19:12 solderpunk But I guess we'll see.
2020-06-13 16:19:14 makeworld Haha same here
2020-06-13 16:20:37 makeworld Hmm nope, I'm gonna have to update everything first
2020-06-13 16:20:41 makeworld Go Arch Linux
2020-06-13 16:21:09 makeworld Might just wait for your binary...
2020-06-13 16:21:48 @tomasino ahh, i guess i need to install java
2020-06-13 16:21:49 @tomasino crap
2020-06-13 16:22:03 makeworld Uh oh
2020-06-13 16:22:09 makeworld Makes sense though
2020-06-13 16:22:50 @tomasino yeah, i hate android dev
2020-06-13 16:22:51 @tomasino :)
2020-06-13 16:23:05 @tomasino almost as much as i hate ios dev
2020-06-13 16:23:12 makeworld Almost
2020-06-13 16:23:55 ⚡ makeworld afk, watch my computer for me thanks
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2020-06-13 16:27:23 ⚡ tomasino builds....
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2020-06-13 16:30:33 julienxx_ solderpunk: hi! I'm trying stuff with molly brown, am I correct that the only way to use input or redirects is by adding cgi scripts?
2020-06-13 16:33:41 @tomasino omg, i really, really hate android dev
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2020-06-13 16:45:51 solderpunk julienxx: That's the only way to get input, but you can specify redirects in the config file.
2020-06-13 16:46:06 @julienxx Added a Plan 9 man page reader because everyone can’t wait to read those right? gemini://9til.de
2020-06-13 16:46:44 @julienxx Plan 9 has python 2.5 this is rough
2020-06-13 16:46:54 solderpunk It works, I just fetched the man page for acme!
2020-06-13 16:47:00 solderpunk 2.5, yikes!
2020-06-13 16:49:57 @julienxx The ‘with’ syntax is not there and many other things I take for granted, I don’t know much python but this was quite an exercise!
2020-06-13 16:52:36 solderpunk I might actually be fine, I am a pretty conservative coder and don't adopt new bells and whistles lightly.
2020-06-13 16:53:03 solderpunk When I first looked at the Jetforce code I was like "Wow, what language is this? It's a lot like Python but has all kinds of crazy extra syntax I've never seen before!"
2020-06-13 16:55:50 solderpunk Turns out recent 3.x releases have some kind of type hinting stuff.
2020-06-13 17:05:34 @tomasino got it to bloody build
2020-06-13 17:05:39 @tomasino sweet jesus
2020-06-13 17:06:13 @tomasino https://ttm.sh/QId.apk -- deedum-debug.apk
2020-06-13 17:06:32 @tomasino you'll need to get it onto your device and be in developer mode to install it and disable all the play store warnings
2020-06-13 17:06:42 @tomasino it's... kinda slow
2020-06-13 17:06:44 @tomasino but it works
2020-06-13 17:08:36 @tomasino hrm
2020-06-13 17:08:45 @tomasino maybe it's just tilde.black that's really slow
2020-06-13 17:09:06 @tomasino eh, cosmic is too
2020-06-13 17:09:08 @tomasino hrm
2020-06-13 17:23:10 makeworld Looks like I can't just install it directly on my device
2020-06-13 17:23:17 makeworld I wonder why
2020-06-13 17:25:33 @tomasino ::shrug::
2020-06-13 17:25:45 makeworld I'll try using my laptop
2020-06-13 17:25:59 makeworld Thanks btw
2020-06-13 17:26:07 @tomasino hope it works out for ya!
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2020-06-13 19:33:12 @tomasino solderpunk: 5.4.1 Heading lines, last line has an extra linebreak
2020-06-13 19:33:53 @tomasino i like the changes otherwise
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2020-06-13 20:05:48 kensanata 🚀🚀
2020-06-13 20:06:18 @tomasino pew pew
2020-06-13 20:06:44 kensanata Sadly, the Gemini spec has a strange problem: There's always a line break between MIME types and charset parameter so somebody like me can't tell whether there's a space after the semicolon or not.
2020-06-13 20:08:57 kensanata Also, too bad there's no example showing both a charset and a lang parameter.
2020-06-13 20:09:19 kensanata Actually, the lang parameter examples show a space after the semicolon.
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2020-06-13 20:26:14 kensanata How one would set up a Gemini wiki using Oddmuse: https://oddmuse.org/wiki/Gemini_Wiki
2020-06-13 20:26:41 kensanata (This only covers a local installation, for now.)
2020-06-13 20:32:45 wgreenhouse kensanata: awesome! :) btw you could also use "gnutls-cli --tofu" in that example
2020-06-13 20:39:24 kensanata wgreenhouse: I tried it and it didn't work. I suspect that's because --insecure also makes sure the common name matches.
2020-06-13 20:39:47 kensanata Perhaps if I had used localhost instead of gemini as the cn? I don't know.
2020-06-13 20:40:24 wgreenhouse Hmm.
2020-06-13 20:42:11 wgreenhouse I'll try later :) I'm going to try oddmuse-gemini-over-.onion, just to be extra crazypants
2020-06-13 20:43:10 kensanata Oh wow.
2020-06-13 20:44:13 @tomasino do we have gemini over tor working anywhere?
2020-06-13 20:44:30 @tomasino i mean, i have an onion address on tilde.black
2020-06-13 20:44:34 kensanata tomasino: didn't you provide a super simple solutino for running gopher over tor?
2020-06-13 20:44:39 kensanata Some sort of wrapper?
2020-06-13 20:44:44 @tomasino sort of
2020-06-13 20:44:58 @tomasino i just run a second gopherd on port 71 and do some port trickery with tor
2020-06-13 20:45:07 @tomasino it's really as easy as that
2020-06-13 20:45:28 @tomasino ports 70 and 71 both point to my internal server's 71 which runs a gopherd where the hostname is the onion address
2020-06-13 20:45:48 @tomasino initial requests to port 70 find it and relative links point to 71, so that works too
2020-06-13 20:46:01 @tomasino gemini shouldn't need any of that, though
2020-06-13 20:46:08 @tomasino i should just be able to point at it, i think
2020-06-13 20:46:37 @tomasino tilde.black's onion address is black6kfjetfuzaeozz7fs53whh7xtd4e27telrf5fg5kgdt5ah5plad.onion
2020-06-13 20:46:46 @tomasino i have tor running and accepting 1965
2020-06-13 20:46:58 @tomasino i haven't gotten it to show up in any clients though
2020-06-13 20:47:46 @tomasino it's just hanging in av98 right now when run through torify
2020-06-13 20:48:08 kensanata Hm. I'm wondering something else: I have a machine that has multiple names. Can I run two different Gemini servers on the same port, each listening for a different hostname? I don't think so, right? I can only have one Gemini server listening on the port and it does the virtual host thing by looking at the URI.
2020-06-13 20:48:29 @tomasino currently, yes
2020-06-13 20:48:53 @tomasino but since the request has the name it it you could split it before it gets to your server if you put something in the way, i think... the TLS bit makes it all harder
2020-06-13 20:49:03 @tomasino i'm not sure where that fits in
2020-06-13 20:49:40 @tomasino bollux: Permanent error [53]: This server does not allow proxy requests
2020-06-13 20:49:47 @tomasino when i tried to torify to tilde.black's onion
2020-06-13 20:50:14 @tomasino maybe it's just that jetforce doesn't know the onion name?
2020-06-13 20:52:04 kensanata tomasino: Yeah, I guess you need to connect to the onion address and in your request you still need to send the normal URI, so either the server needs to know how to handle both, or the client needs to know how to construct those requests.
2020-06-13 20:52:31 kensanata I hadn't considered that sending the full URI would make torifying the site a bit harder.
2020-06-13 21:22:10 jan is there a gemini server that only accepts TLS 1.3?
2020-06-13 21:22:24 jan i need to test something here...
2020-06-13 21:22:49 solderpunk Good question, I don't know.
2020-06-13 21:23:23 kensanata How would I force gnutls-cli to use 1.2?
2020-06-13 21:23:41 jan and: how do clients handle certificate validation for self-signed certificates?
2020-06-13 21:23:56 kensanata tofu?
2020-06-13 21:24:39 @tomasino would GUS know that?
2020-06-13 21:24:55 kensanata That is, save something in a local file. gnutls-cli for example uses .gnutls/known_hosts and saves a long line for each certificate.
2020-06-13 21:24:57 jan right now, ncgopher accepts invalid server certificates, where invalid means self-signed. but invalid in this case means also expired certificates, so i check the expiration date after the connection has been established
2020-06-13 21:25:13 kensanata jan: makes sense
2020-06-13 21:26:35 jan hm. the more i keep digging into rust tls libraries, the more edge cases arise.
2020-06-13 21:27:24 jan i should probably rewrite my code to use rusttls instead of native-tls. better support for tls 1.3
2020-06-13 21:27:32 jan bummer.
2020-06-13 21:37:03 kensanata OK, I have a second Gemini wiki up and running on communitywiki.org:1966. There is no web interface. 😱
2020-06-13 21:37:53 kensanata That is to say, it isn't based on https://communitywiki.org/
2020-06-13 21:39:34 thombles dozens: :)
2020-06-13 21:41:00 thombles rustls's 1.3 support goes nicely and it's pretty flexible with certs, I've been down that path before. Not having to build openssl-sys (y)(y)
2020-06-13 21:43:43 jan thombles: sounds good.
2020-06-13 21:44:19 jan rusttls is based on ring, which also would allow ad-hoc creation of client certificates (afaik)
2020-06-13 21:45:46 solderpunk 'night, everybody!
2020-06-13 21:46:10 solderpunk has quit (Client exited)
2020-06-13 21:50:34 @tomasino night!
2020-06-13 21:52:09 styan tomasino: I mentioned the onion address thing before. There is a setting in Jetforce that you can add to the startup script that will make it ignore the hostname but, unless something changed, I did not see a way to specify alias names.
2020-06-13 21:53:55 styan geminawk(1) supports proxying though, so ``NC='nc -X5 -xlocalhost:9050' geminawk -h black....onion gemini://tilde.black/'' works. :-)
2020-06-13 21:55:21 makeworld I'm hoping solderpunk will formalize a Gemini write protocol
2020-06-13 21:55:30 makeworld It'd be nice to have something down for everyone to follow
2020-06-13 22:03:35 kensanata I don't know whether solderpunk is interested in Gemini extensions...
2020-06-13 22:03:43 kensanata I suspect he might not be!
2020-06-13 22:03:49 jan +1
2020-06-13 22:05:01 thombles I think this titan thing is rapidly going to get out of hand - I could have missed it but so far I've seen no mention of directory listing, adding/removing directories, or renaming resources
2020-06-13 22:05:35 thombles Unless you can have enough primitives to build something like VS Code's remote development file tree, I can't see to practically author/maintain a gemini site
2020-06-13 22:05:46 thombles how* to
2020-06-13 22:05:47 kensanata Hm?
2020-06-13 22:05:58 kensanata I run a wiki...
2020-06-13 22:06:21 kensanata That's basically a flat soup of files, if you want to visualize it like that.
2020-06-13 22:07:38 thombles if you wanted to list all pages available for editing on the wiki would that be via a server-generated directory list, or perhaps a CGI program?
2020-06-13 22:08:33 thombles I'm assuming that even basic users with a handful of pages will have an index.gmi that makes it hard to see what pages even exist
2020-06-13 22:17:01 @tomasino i'm assuming it would be "edit resource at XXX URL" and "upload/replace resource at XXX URL"
2020-06-13 22:23:21 kensanata Yeah.
2020-06-13 22:23:46 kensanata thombles: take a look at gemini://alexschroeder.ch to see what a wiki would look like.
2020-06-13 22:24:49 kensanata So basically there aren't any "files" necessarily. The server simply serves stuff. Like on the web. Clients don't need to know whether resources are actually files on the server or not.
2020-06-13 22:25:34 thombles Right I see, this presupposes a CMS of some description
2020-06-13 22:26:11 thombles and if you need to do anything more specialised than put, you can interact with a CGI page to tell it to do so
2020-06-13 22:26:48 kensanata Yeah, the wiki is a CMS of sorts, exactly.
2020-06-13 22:27:20 thombles I perhaps got the wrong impression from the commentary around whether this could be a replacement for people having to learn (s)ftp
2020-06-13 22:27:37 thombles I'm not sure we're all on the same page
2020-06-13 22:30:32 kensanata Ah. Well... that wouldn't be a usecase I had in mind with my Gemini wiki, but sure, somebody could write a different kind of server that did all sorts of stuff.
2020-06-13 22:31:23 kensanata And now it's time for bed. My wife just fell asleep on the sofa.
2020-06-13 22:31:38 kensanata I bet she's going to claim she was just "thinking about the book".
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2020-06-13 23:06:59 xq <tomasino> xq: i just ran into a feature request in kristall! "ctrl-f"
2020-06-13 23:07:07 xq yes, that's on the list. it bugs me as well
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2020-06-14 00:32:35 ℹ Mode #gemini [+qo tiwesdaeg tiwesdaeg] by ChanServ
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2020-06-14 06:09:31 thombles Hmm I was kicked off the list again... and coincidentally it was somebody else who set up their email hosting using migadu, who for whatever reason is encouraging their customers to use p=reject
2020-06-14 06:12:02 thombles Having already inadvertently chased away Alex S, before I do it again - does anyone else get their gemini ML membership disabled due to bounces? Or is my provider unique in actually enforcing the DMARC policy?
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2020-06-14 11:42:45 ℹ jan6 is now known as DraugurLord
2020-06-14 12:02:01 ℹ DraugurLord is now known as _
2020-06-14 12:02:19 ℹ _ is now known as jan6
2020-06-14 12:17:47 mhj Heyo gemasaurus rex's, what's new in y'alls giant gemholes?
2020-06-14 12:19:23 xq hello people
2020-06-14 12:22:43 mhj Hmm, might upload scripts I made for Void Linux, even though I use Manjaro now.
2020-06-14 12:23:24 xq what's the script for?
2020-06-14 12:24:55 mhj It's to make using service manager that Void uses easier. Void uses something called sv, so I made a script called svctl so I don't have to constantly do symbolic linking to get services up and running, or to shut them down
2020-06-14 12:25:31 xq :D
2020-06-14 12:25:42 xq sounds kinda complicated
2020-06-14 12:26:02 mhj Eh, Void itself is easy to understand
2020-06-14 12:26:22 mhj I made it harder than it understand than it actually is lol
2020-06-14 12:27:06 xq probably :D
2020-06-14 12:27:14 mhj https://docs.voidlinux.org/config/services/index.html
2020-06-14 12:27:37 mhj Er, harder to understand
2020-06-14 12:27:59 mhj Void doesn't use systemd, it uses runit
2020-06-14 12:28:19 mhj It boots ultra fast because of it
2020-06-14 12:28:31 xq hmm
2020-06-14 12:28:33 xq sounds appealing
2020-06-14 12:30:09 mhj The only reason I stopped using it was due to lack of software in it. I felt like I wanted some stuff Arch Linux's AUR.
2020-06-14 12:30:30 mhj Er, some stuff in the AUR
2020-06-14 12:30:41 mhj Mostly games lol
2020-06-14 12:30:53 xq heh
2020-06-14 12:31:03 xq was going to ask if switching from Arch is worth it
2020-06-14 12:31:16 xq but i'm heavily using AUR stuff
2020-06-14 12:32:01 mhj Yeah, Void doesn't have anything like the AUR, so yeah
2020-06-14 12:32:46 ironzorg https://drewdevault.com/tls/security/oauth/2020/06/12/Can-we-talk-about-client-side-certs.html related
2020-06-14 12:37:12 xq the TODO list for Kristall is piling up :D
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2020-06-14 12:51:26 ~tiwesdaeg when are we getting kristall in the AUR?
2020-06-14 12:52:13 ⚡ xq has to look up how to do this…
2020-06-14 12:56:17 ~tiwesdaeg it looks like it's handled through git
2020-06-14 12:56:52 xq yeah… probably going to check this out after the 0.3 version
2020-06-14 12:57:01 xq when all the spec-required stuff is implemented
2020-06-14 12:58:27 ~tiwesdaeg just pulled kristall, smallest amount of changes ever
2020-06-14 12:59:05 xq haha, yeah
2020-06-14 12:59:09 xq wasn't busy the last two days
2020-06-14 12:59:14 ~tiwesdaeg one note, I've found the icon isn't the most visible with dark themes
2020-06-14 12:59:21 xq yep, i know
2020-06-14 12:59:38 xq i need to check out how to switch out icons or just the icon color
2020-06-14 12:59:47 ~tiwesdaeg I had actually made a lighter one for myself before I started using the make install method
2020-06-14 12:59:51 xq i don't like having two sets of the same files differing only in a single color value
2020-06-14 13:00:10 xq have a talk in roughly one hour, a bit nervous atm :D
2020-06-14 13:00:36 ~tiwesdaeg good luck with whatever is causing the nervousness
2020-06-14 13:00:44 xq if any of you wanna see me talking about how to write assemblers and building computers, join us at https://zig.show/ (twitch)
2020-06-14 13:00:45 ~tiwesdaeg oh I get it
2020-06-14 13:00:47 ~tiwesdaeg brain is slow
2020-06-14 13:00:49 ~tiwesdaeg what kind of talk?
2020-06-14 13:01:16 xq i'm in the process of building/developing my own computer from "scratch" (as in: use an FPGA and breadboards)
2020-06-14 13:01:53 ~tiwesdaeg a theoretical/software computer or are you looking at actual manufacture?
2020-06-14 13:02:42 ~tiwesdaeg I haven't had any caffeine yet and my brain is chugging along at a snails pace
2020-06-14 13:04:30 ⚡ xq looks at the breadboard to his side and a whole bunch of wires
2020-06-14 13:04:35 xq seems pretty physical to me *grin*
2020-06-14 13:05:03 ~tiwesdaeg yeah, see it takes me until after I have responded to fully parse what I just read
2020-06-14 13:05:41 xq *grins*
2020-06-14 13:05:44 ⚡ tiwesdaeg installs zig
2020-06-14 13:05:48 xq what time is it at your place?
2020-06-14 13:05:58 ~tiwesdaeg 08:05
2020-06-14 13:06:04 xq oh :D
2020-06-14 13:06:12 ~tiwesdaeg no hot water in the electric kettle
2020-06-14 13:06:14 xq get the latest master tar ball from here: https://ziglang.org/download/
2020-06-14 13:06:25 mhj Oh you're on twitch?
2020-06-14 13:06:29 mhj Awesome
2020-06-14 13:06:44 xq i don't stream myself very often, but today i'm joining in on Zig Showtime
2020-06-14 13:06:50 mhj Sweet :D
2020-06-14 13:07:00 xq last stream was in march, making some life shader coding
2020-06-14 13:07:11 mhj I do lots of streaming, I plan to do some stuff about using Linux/Unix
2020-06-14 13:07:17 ~tiwesdaeg arch has 0.6.0-1
2020-06-14 13:07:34 xq yeha 0.6.0 is quite outdated already, zig isn't stable software atm :D
2020-06-14 13:07:36 mhj But today I play Mega Man V(Gameboy Mega Man) and Ridge Racer Type 4
2020-06-14 13:07:41 ~tiwesdaeg hehe
2020-06-14 13:07:44 xq sounds good
2020-06-14 13:07:50 ⚡ tiwesdaeg uninstalls zig
2020-06-14 13:07:54 xq *rofl*
2020-06-14 13:09:41 ⚡ tiwesdaeg goes to put on a pot of tea
2020-06-14 13:17:26 ~tiwesdaeg xq: how do you normal setup you tarball folder?
2020-06-14 13:17:40 ~tiwesdaeg stick it somewhere and link to the binary?
2020-06-14 13:18:05 xq yeah
2020-06-14 13:18:16 xq i have ~/software/ for manually installed software
2020-06-14 13:21:53 ~tiwesdaeg I usually have ~/Projects/ folder
2020-06-14 13:22:15 ~tiwesdaeg but that is usually for stuff I am working on or downloaded software to build
2020-06-14 13:23:16 paper ~/.local/bin and ~/opt works for me
2020-06-14 13:25:49 xq yeah i have ~/projects as well, but it's not the right place for precompiled software
2020-06-14 13:27:02 ~tiwesdaeg I'm guessing the zig binary should stay with the libs folder
2020-06-14 13:36:44 xq yes
2020-06-14 13:44:18 `epochbot :> anyone know of gophervr?
2020-06-14 13:45:03 `epochbot I think I might convert my shell-script gemini client into a geminivr
2020-06-14 13:53:49 mhj I've heard of gophervr, never used it tho
2020-06-14 14:04:42 ⚡ tiwesdaeg tunes in to twitch
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2020-06-14 14:33:28 @tomasino played with it once or twice, but beyond it looking neat it just seemed to slow down my use
2020-06-14 14:38:30 dozens always seemed a bit of a novelty to me
2020-06-14 15:07:17 @tomasino futurama did an episode on VR interfaces if i recall
2020-06-14 15:07:39 @tomasino the crew got stuck inside the virtual world and at one point they needed to go to another folder to get a file and had to literally hike to another mountain
2020-06-14 15:07:50 @tomasino they were like, "why is this better, again?"
2020-06-14 15:11:17 ⚡ xq is back
2020-06-14 15:12:49 ~tiwesdaeg xq: I followed the first bit, but then became completely lost
2020-06-14 15:13:20 xq why? too in-depth? too unfocused?
2020-06-14 15:13:36 ℹ notandinus is now known as totallynotandinus
2020-06-14 15:18:07 ~tiwesdaeg way outside my normal purview
2020-06-14 15:19:13 ~tiwesdaeg I've never really spent that time studying cpu architecture
2020-06-14 15:19:21 xq yeah, true
2020-06-14 15:19:31 xq it's not a talk for a highlevel coder :D
2020-06-14 15:19:31 ~tiwesdaeg great shot of the breadboard setup
2020-06-14 15:19:39 xq thanks :D
2020-06-14 15:19:56 xq but as said: i needed to learn a lot of stuff while doing the project
2020-06-14 15:19:57 ~tiwesdaeg I'm not even a very good highlevel coder ;P
2020-06-14 15:20:11 xq yeah, definitly no entry-level talk :D
2020-06-14 15:20:39 ⚡ tiwesdaeg is putting off going on a bike ride
2020-06-14 15:20:43 xq have fun!
2020-06-14 15:20:48 xq it's raining heavily here
2020-06-14 15:20:52 ~tiwesdaeg I know it'll be mroe fun once I'm out there, but I'm tired
2020-06-14 15:20:59 ~tiwesdaeg getting warm here
2020-06-14 15:21:27 ~tiwesdaeg currently only 27, but 100% humidity
2020-06-14 15:22:18 ~tiwesdaeg we hit about 33 yesterday, so I am guessing it will be similar today
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2020-06-14 16:20:50 kensanata Does anybody here know their way around DNS and IPv6 issues? When I use AV-98 to visit gemini://communitywiki.org:1966, it's fast. When I do the same via Elpher/Emacs, it's slow and I get a message saying: "Connection timed out. Retrying with IPv4." As if the IPv6 setup somehow doesn't work. When visiting gemini://alexschroeder.ch I don't see this problem. Ideas?
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2020-06-14 16:38:34 kensanata I'm suspecting some sort of hickup that I ought to figure out using dig, but I have no idea what I'm looking for. It looks fine.
2020-06-14 16:39:59 @tomasino ben groks it best
2020-06-14 16:40:18 @tomasino I think he's off to the beach though
2020-06-14 16:40:25 kensanata Hm... the log file for the one that works starts as follows:
2020-06-14 16:40:25 kensanata Resolved [alexschroeder.ch]:1965 to [178.209.50.237]:1965, IPv4
2020-06-14 16:40:25 kensanata Resolved [alexschroeder.ch]:1965 to [2a02:418:6a04:178:209:50:237:1]:1965, IPv6
2020-06-14 16:40:40 kensanata The log file for the one that doesn't work for IPv6 starts with just one...
2020-06-14 16:40:52 kensanata Resolved [communitywiki.org]:1966 to [178.209.50.237]:1966, IPv4
2020-06-14 16:41:14 @tomasino 1966?
2020-06-14 16:41:17 kensanata GAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH!!!!
2020-06-14 16:41:20 kensanata I found it
2020-06-14 16:41:30 kensanata It's /etc/hosts!!
2020-06-14 16:41:36 @tomasino Yay
2020-06-14 16:41:39 @ben damn /etc/hosts
2020-06-14 16:41:46 kensanata I have an IPv4 for all my hostnames, and just one of them with IPv6.
2020-06-14 16:41:54 @tomasino Shame
2020-06-14 16:41:57 @ben kensanata: gemini can do SNI
2020-06-14 16:41:58 @tomasino :P
2020-06-14 16:42:01 @ben no need to use an alternate port
2020-06-14 16:42:02 kensanata Yes, I hate those sysadmins. Always tinkering with their /etc/hosts file.
2020-06-14 16:42:06 kensanata What were they THINKING!?
2020-06-14 16:42:36 kensanata ben: I run two Gemini servers. The real one on 1965 (for one hostname) and a toy one on 1966 (for another hostname).
2020-06-14 16:42:51 @ben ahhh ok that's a reasonable excuse ;)
2020-06-14 16:43:03 @tomasino I do need to look into that for tor more soon
2020-06-14 16:43:19 @tomasino I'm almost out from under the work onslaught
2020-06-14 16:44:29 kensanata Good for you! We had our first release on Saturday for a production system and apparently it worked, so I'm expecting the next two weeks to be smoother sailing.
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2020-06-14 17:52:16 @tomasino brilliant
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2020-06-14 18:21:38 makeworld https://lists.orbitalfox.eu/archives/gemini/2020/001672.html
2020-06-14 18:21:58 makeworld This seems like the simplest proposal for input from the guy himself
2020-06-14 18:29:02 makeworld Konpeito still down :(
2020-06-14 18:31:46 @tomasino i'll try to bug cat this week. maybe i can help him get it going again
2020-06-14 18:32:35 makeworld Sounds good, that'd be nice
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2020-06-14 18:58:19 dozens is there a gemini user's guide to TLS somewhere? for example, I'd like to checkout astrobotany.mozz.us but don't know how to create a cert.
2020-06-14 18:59:45 xq dozens: Use Kristall! #selfadvertisin
2020-06-14 19:00:02 xq it has certificate creation built-in
2020-06-14 19:00:13 dozens I would! haven't gotten it to compile on macos yet :(
2020-06-14 19:00:24 xq oh!
2020-06-14 19:00:31 xq tell me more, a friend of mine got it compiling
2020-06-14 19:00:45 dozens hmm, lemme see if I took any notes
2020-06-14 19:01:56 kensanata openssl req -new -x509 -days 365 -nodes -out cert.pem -keyout key.pem
2020-06-14 19:02:17 kensanata Answer the questions, or not. But do provide an answer to the last question, the Common Name.
2020-06-14 19:03:49 kensanata Then start: av98 --tls-cert cert.pem --tls-key key.pem gemini://astrobotany.mozz.us/
2020-06-14 19:03:56 kensanata This uses the two files you just created.
2020-06-14 19:04:22 dozens xq: shoot, no I deleted them. I remember having to manually link my openssl headers because of homebrew shenanagins, but then I got another error and I don't remember what it was. If I try again, I'll be sure to let you know
2020-06-14 19:04:43 xq please! :)
2020-06-14 19:05:36 dozens kensanata: super helpful, thanks!
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2020-06-14 19:18:21 companion_cube I wonder why content based protocols aren't considered simpler than http like stuff
2020-06-14 19:18:36 companion_cube (trying to read through the big threads about put/delete methods)
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2020-06-14 19:59:43 xq btw guys
2020-06-14 19:59:51 xq i'd implement TOFU for HTTPS, too
2020-06-14 19:59:55 xq what do you think about this?
2020-06-14 20:02:39 ~tiwesdaeg hmmm
2020-06-14 20:03:10 ~tiwesdaeg I don't really see using it for https
2020-06-14 20:04:59 xq it's just an architecture thing of Kristall internally
2020-06-14 20:05:09 xq i'd like to wire the certificate handling for all SSL into the same path
2020-06-14 20:05:19 xq right now it uses Qts internal SSL handling
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2020-06-14 20:29:53 kensanata xq: It really depends on whether you think certification authorities are worth anything.
2020-06-14 20:30:37 kensanata xq: My personal take is that none of them are worth it. On a personal level, most people use Let's Encrypt or their hosting provider's services, and thus there is effectively no value.
2020-06-14 20:30:49 kensanata xq: In other words, TOFU good!
2020-06-14 20:31:09 kensanata As for my own Gemini wiki dreams... gemini://communitywiki.org:1966/Use_the_Command_Line
2020-06-14 20:33:59 @tomasino hrm, i'm getting odd character rendering from shufei's gemlog in kristall
2020-06-14 20:34:06 @tomasino anyone else seeing issues there?
2020-06-14 20:35:19 kensanata URL?
2020-06-14 20:35:52 @tomasino gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space:1965/users/shufei/phlog/20200612-Reply-Demifiend-Games.gmi
2020-06-14 20:35:54 xq tomasino: i don't do correct encoding handling atm
2020-06-14 20:36:00 @tomasino ahh
2020-06-14 20:36:10 @tomasino okay, cool cool
2020-06-14 20:36:22 xq link looks okay here though
2020-06-14 20:36:23 @tomasino i was flipping through a bunch of fonts thinking it was me
2020-06-14 20:36:43 @tomasino Computers with locked down OS���s
2020-06-14 20:37:00 @tomasino no? not seeing that?
2020-06-14 20:37:29 xq it's your font
2020-06-14 20:37:39 xq OS’s indeed
2020-06-14 20:37:50 @tomasino crap, i tried 12 different fonts, same result
2020-06-14 20:38:11 @tomasino like... Arial should show it fine. if not Arial Unicode certainly should. Both showing what you see, though
2020-06-14 20:38:24 @tomasino what are you using?
2020-06-14 20:38:38 @tomasino i'm using Open Sans right now
2020-06-14 20:39:05 @tomasino oh
2020-06-14 20:39:06 @tomasino haha
2020-06-14 20:39:06 @tomasino no
2020-06-14 20:39:14 @tomasino experimental text highlights
2020-06-14 20:39:20 @tomasino i turned it off and we're good
2020-06-14 20:39:40 ⚡ tomasino dances
2020-06-14 20:40:14 xq oh yeah
2020-06-14 20:40:22 xq there's a reason they're experimental :D
2020-06-14 20:40:25 @tomasino hehe
2020-06-14 20:40:35 @tomasino i wonder if that's why yeti's thing was blowing up
2020-06-14 20:40:38 @tomasino lemme check
2020-06-14 20:42:13 @tomasino yep!
2020-06-14 20:42:15 @tomasino tha was it
2020-06-14 20:42:24 @tomasino gemini://envs.net/~yeti/
2020-06-14 20:43:29 xq oh wow
2020-06-14 20:43:34 xq that's a nice artwork
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2020-06-14 20:57:35 kensanata I wonder what screen readers make of this.
2020-06-14 20:58:27 kensanata Letter 1 D 5 0 8 Letter 1 D 5 2 6 Letter ... UGH
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2020-06-14 20:59:14 kensanata rhapsode disabuses me of all unicode joy
2020-06-14 21:01:08 xq we need ```art
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2020-06-14 21:05:50 kensanata I'm not sure – perhaps rhapsode did that, but the Fraktur Unicode characters were simply unreadable to it.
2020-06-14 21:07:01 kensanata I mean, I can read ℑ𝔱'𝔰 𝔪𝔢, 𝖄𝖊𝖙𝖎, 𝔞𝔫𝔡 ℑ 𝔰𝔱𝔦𝔩𝔩 𝔡𝔬𝔫'𝔱 𝔟𝔦𝔱𝔢! – by this Emacs I'm on only displays the first of these letters correctly: ℌ𝔢𝔩𝔩𝔬 so I'm not surprised rhapsode doesn't know how to pronounce all of this.
2020-06-14 21:08:02 kensanata Anyway, time for bed!
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2020-06-14 21:18:57 @tomasino We got ```art, xq
2020-06-14 21:19:04 @tomasino It was in the last update
2020-06-14 21:19:25 xq oh, neat!
2020-06-14 21:20:01 @tomasino Technically we got ``` alt text
2020-06-14 21:20:34 @tomasino And a directive to do as thou wilt to figure out extras like syntax highlighting
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2020-06-14 21:56:44 xq okay...
2020-06-14 21:56:53 xq seems like the Kristall Mobile Edition has to wait
2020-06-14 22:05:25 makeworld Why's that?
2020-06-14 22:06:00 xq because Android hates me and I hate Android
2020-06-14 22:06:07 xq tried to set up at least a basic android env
2020-06-14 22:06:31 xq result: "you are not allowed to install apps via USB because we are chinese and you are a filthy peasant. create an account or vanish"
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2020-06-14 22:06:56 xq so i would need to install every APK i've built *by hand*
2020-06-14 22:07:19 xq and i can't get a qt build done
2020-06-14 22:07:25 xq because it seems like the android sdk hates my OS
2020-06-14 22:07:32 xq and just crashes with a java exception in the sdkmanager
2020-06-14 22:11:11 makeworld Haha that was the exact error message huh
2020-06-14 22:11:17 xq :D
2020-06-14 22:11:19 xq kinda
2020-06-14 22:11:19 makeworld But yeah that sucks, sorry
2020-06-14 22:11:30 @tomasino i also hate android dev
2020-06-14 22:11:32 makeworld Mobile bad
2020-06-14 22:11:34 @tomasino sorry, dude
2020-06-14 22:11:39 xq you click "enable USB debugging" and a login screen appears with the message "you need to be registered as a xiami developer to enable USB debugging"
2020-06-14 22:11:47 makeworld oof
2020-06-14 22:11:56 xq i'm really tempted to get a pine phone
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2020-06-14 23:09:21 makeworld xq: I think I found an issue with your TOFU system
2020-06-14 23:09:25 makeworld Sent an email on the ml
2020-06-14 23:10:57 makeworld https://lists.orbitalfox.eu/archives/gemini/2020/001682.html
2020-06-14 23:49:31 ℹ totallynotandinus is now known as notandinus
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2020-06-15 00:40:22 @tomasino gemini://tilde.black/users/fox/vintagetv/superman-03.gmi
2020-06-15 00:40:24 @tomasino part 3
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2020-06-15 00:53:21 @tomasino vulpes hides ``` blocks with alt text, eh?
2020-06-15 00:58:50 dozens xq: just tried installing kristall on macos again. did a `brew install qt` and exported all the env vars I needed. qmake worked fine, but had to add -I/usr/local/lib to the includes in the makefile so it would fine my openssl headers
2020-06-15 00:58:57 dozens anyway, build failed with `ld: library not found for -lcrypto`
2020-06-15 00:59:07 dozens clang: error: linker command failed with exit code 1 (use -v to see invocation)
2020-06-15 00:59:58 dozens is that a crypto pacage that homebrew qt wasn't compiled with?
2020-06-15 01:01:00 dozens or maybe an openssl thing
2020-06-15 01:04:20 dozens i DID get it installed on my arm64 laptop though! it's really fun to use!
2020-06-15 01:05:30 styan dozens: `libcrypto' is OpenSSL.
2020-06-15 01:11:30 dozens for some reason I didn't know that pine phone wasn't Android lol
2020-06-15 01:12:31 dozens thanks styan. I don't know why it's having such a hard time with my openssl :(
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2020-06-15 03:31:20 login xq: that's amazing... they locked it so it can't get abused by police
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2020-06-15 07:08:57 xq login: not sure ;)
2020-06-15 07:09:25 xq Xiamo is a chinese company, i think it's more likely that they wanted you to prevent sideloading apps by that
2020-06-15 07:39:35 login it's probably that
2020-06-15 07:40:02 login xiaomi also tracks everybody and is unscrupulous with customer data
2020-06-15 07:40:56 xq yeah
2020-06-15 07:41:04 xq the phone is already rootet and a lot of stuff was changed
2020-06-15 07:42:35 xq trying the android build now on windows in a fully-automated setup world…
2020-06-15 07:42:38 xq VMs to the rescue
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2020-06-15 08:20:14 kensanata gemini://alexschroeder.ch/2020-06-14_Using_Titan_to_edit_a_Gemini_wiki has a shell script with which to dabble, if you're interested. The wiki it would edit can be read by all Gemini clients at gemini://communitywiki.org:1966
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2020-06-15 11:07:57 dkibi am I the only one feeling unconfortable using a protocol named after an intercontinental ballistic missile?
2020-06-15 11:10:55 tadzik possibly. Humanity has been around for a while, we may run out of words that don't have a negative association in some culture
2020-06-15 11:17:11 @tomasino A modified ICBM with a mission of exploration instead of war? I'm 100% on board with that
2020-06-15 11:19:08 dkibi tadzik: well this negative connotation is not an accidental coincidence
2020-06-15 11:21:36 tadzik now that I looked it up, you're right. Then again, I'd argue that it's an implementation detail in the grand scheme of things. I'm on board with tomasino here
2020-06-15 11:21:42 dkibi tomasino: that's a valid perspective, I still can't shake the discomfort
2020-06-15 11:23:08 tadzik most (?) current spaceships are also powered by nuclear reactors, fueled by a byproduct of nuclear weapon creation. Does that make them bad too?
2020-06-15 11:23:41 dkibi but yeah military implications are hard to avoid in this space
2020-06-15 11:23:53 solderpunk I really don't mean to be flippant, but if you are uncomfortable about peaceful repurposing of what was originally military technology, I have bad news about this "internet" thing...
2020-06-15 11:25:55 solderpunk But the titan:// companion protocol is, at this stage, such a speculative maybe thing, that I don't think it will be problematic to change the name if people are bothered by it.
2020-06-15 11:26:46 tadzik oh, I thought this topic is about Gemini all along
2020-06-15 11:26:52 solderpunk Oh!
2020-06-15 11:26:54 dkibi I don't even want to discuss the moral implications on this, I don't at all have a refined opinion on this and I must admit that if the gemini launcher had just a different name I would be happier I think
2020-06-15 11:27:10 dkibi oh no sorry it was specifically about titan
2020-06-15 11:27:12 solderpunk I assumed it was about Titan, which was specifically an ICBM.
2020-06-15 11:27:34 tadzik according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Gemini "Their launch vehicle was the Gemini–Titan II, a modified Intercontinental Ballistic Missile (ICBM)."
2020-06-15 11:27:49 solderpunk To be honest, before we stress about the idea of what to call it, I am still really, really struggling to figure out what I think about the whole concept of a companion uploading protocol.
2020-06-15 11:27:59 solderpunk I actually came in here just now to feel out how people were feeling about it.
2020-06-15 11:28:11 dkibi and this is not a super strong feeling either, otherwise I would have brought this up on the mailinglist. it's something that went through my head and I thought putting it here might be appropiately informal
2020-06-15 11:28:30 solderpunk Ironically, I now need to disappear for 20 minutes or so to run an unexpected errand, but I will be back.
2020-06-15 11:29:15 dkibi but one snarky comment: well at least the web came from a civilian insititution ^^
2020-06-15 11:30:35 @tomasino I... still don't think it's necessary. I know kensanata really love wikis but everything is so much simpler without upload
2020-06-15 11:31:05 `epochbot reverse gemini.
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2020-06-15 11:31:11 `epochbot ta da
2020-06-15 11:31:22 `epochbot assuming ports are easy to open. >_>
2020-06-15 11:31:56 `epochbot I have a 10 asking for the URL to download what you want to upload from...
2020-06-15 11:32:15 `epochbot then my server downloads it with a gemini-capable curl or something
2020-06-15 11:32:32 `epochbot if you want to upload directly from your computer, host a gemini server for a few minutes?
2020-06-15 11:34:07 `epochbot could just be 'give me a URL that I understand that points at your file. here's the URL schemes I understand:'
2020-06-15 11:34:22 `epochbot http, ftp, https, gemini, gopher, magnet...
2020-06-15 11:34:38 `epochbot _ _
2020-06-15 11:34:39 `epochbot \O_o/
2020-06-15 11:36:51 `epochbot maybe I'll put my big gender-neutral pants on and write an implementation myself
2020-06-15 11:41:07 @tomasino if the protocol supports uploads then it would need to support the full range of CRUD operations to be a complete solution. Then the server must have its code added to handle all those parts, but that's almost the easy part. Now a fully featured client would need tools to let people edit, create, delete, move, etc. It becomes a file manager, a text editor and more.
2020-06-15 11:41:28 @tomasino it's not a trivial scope increase, but a massive one that would affect all parts of the gemini ecosystem
2020-06-15 11:42:08 @tomasino i have no doubt it's doable. We've seen that already. I just don't see how the implications of a change like that are good for the simple protocol.
2020-06-15 11:43:50 @tomasino if we go with the argument that clients are not also content editors and this would be a different tooling then we haven't really improved on anything over FTP or SCP or an SSH login to edit content. The mechanism is still a secondary tooling and we just added the complexity to be novel
2020-06-15 11:45:02 `epochbot any gemini clients displaying response before it finishes sending?
2020-06-15 11:45:19 `epochbot so I could like, send one line at a time very slowly...
2020-06-15 11:45:20 @tomasino great question `epochbot
2020-06-15 11:45:28 @tomasino i wanted to set up a gemini stream at one point
2020-06-15 11:45:33 @tomasino seemed like no clients supported it yet
2020-06-15 11:46:07 @tomasino since parsing is linewise and doesn't loop back to earlier content it should be trivial... as long as the content can be parsed as a stream instead of downloading first and then processing
2020-06-15 11:46:20 tadzik well, given that there's no content-length, I guess the clients don't actually know when the content is finished :)
2020-06-15 11:46:31 @tomasino they get the EOF, don't they?
2020-06-15 11:46:41 @tomasino i think they're waiting on that, or the server to drop the connection
2020-06-15 11:46:46 `epochbot ^
2020-06-15 11:46:58 tadzik hum, I guess. When I did my digging with 'ncat --ssl', the server wasn't closing the connection, as the spec requires it to
2020-06-15 11:47:10 tadzik so I assumed it's up to the clients' best guess
2020-06-15 11:47:15 `epochbot ncat might've been leaving it open
2020-06-15 11:47:21 @tomasino could be?
2020-06-15 11:47:53 @tomasino regardless, if someone were to build a client to expect a stream you could do cool things like news tickers or a fediverse front-end
2020-06-15 11:48:20 `epochbot I think I might have to modify my gemini client to better support this.
2020-06-15 11:48:47 `epochbot like, it reads the first line, then finds out the program that'll read the rest
2020-06-15 11:48:51 `epochbot and just pipes to that or something
2020-06-15 11:49:00 `epochbot or exec()s in place
2020-06-15 11:49:25 `epochbot if mime-type = audio/mpeg exec mpv -
2020-06-15 11:49:35 `epochbot hrm...
2020-06-15 11:50:00 @tomasino yep, works on gopher nicely too in the same way
2020-06-15 11:50:08 @tomasino you can stream video if you expect it
2020-06-15 11:50:24 `epochbot yeah, I tested that with xwindows the other day
2020-06-15 11:51:10 `epochbot I have a 24/7 stream of shuffled music from my computer
2020-06-15 11:51:13 `epochbot but it is a bit weird
2020-06-15 11:51:22 `epochbot you can use it for testing if you don't mind the noise
2020-06-15 11:51:53 `epochbot gopher://lin.thebackupbox.net:7070/9/radio
2020-06-15 11:52:09 @tomasino oh nice
2020-06-15 11:52:14 @tomasino :D
2020-06-15 11:52:18 `epochbot gemini://gemini.thebackupbox.net/radio is just connecting to the same stream
2020-06-15 11:52:39 `epochbot mpv and ffplay have gopher support
2020-06-15 11:52:47 `epochbot mpv through ffplay I think
2020-06-15 11:53:42 `epochbot there's a now-playing.txt hanging out on most protocols if you want to check that
2020-06-15 11:54:06 solderpunk `epochbot: Your "reverse gemini" is exactly what I proposed when this issue first came up.
2020-06-15 11:54:28 solderpunk I still think it's by far the nicest solution.
2020-06-15 11:54:39 solderpunk The problem is that ports *aren't* easy to open in many situations.
2020-06-15 11:57:15 `epochbot heh.
2020-06-15 11:57:20 `epochbot series of 10s
2020-06-15 11:58:35 solderpunk I always hoped they would be one day, but I doubt it now that there is huge commercial incentive against it (acting as middle man for "smart" devices at home which users can't directly connect to lets you hoover up lots of profitable data).
2020-06-15 11:59:30 `epochbot base64 file | fold -w 500 | xargs -I % gemini://my-server/upload.cgi/filename?%
2020-06-15 11:59:46 `epochbot ^ terrible idea and probably not even proper arg names
2020-06-15 11:59:56 solderpunk Monstrous overhead for large fils.
2020-06-15 12:00:03 solderpunk Not that I really think we should care about large files.
2020-06-15 12:00:12 solderpunk Gemini is obviously bad for them in so many ways.
2020-06-15 12:00:14 xq hey solderpunk
2020-06-15 12:00:18 solderpunk Hey xq
2020-06-15 12:00:33 xq not on the ML, but: full ack on your response to my "mobile networks are shitty" rant
2020-06-15 12:00:34 @tomasino i dunno, solderpunk... konpeito
2020-06-15 12:00:41 xq and thanks for clarification of the target audience/creators
2020-06-15 12:01:01 @tomasino and, if people do start using streaming, that could be neat
2020-06-15 12:01:15 tadzik putting something on IPFS is probably the "easiest" way for serving something locally with working natpunching
2020-06-15 12:01:22 tadzik not to be confused with the simpliest way though
2020-06-15 12:01:57 solderpunk The "never read" Best Practices document specifically mentions using links to ipfs for large content, always has.
2020-06-15 12:02:07 tadzik I've read it :)
2020-06-15 12:02:13 solderpunk Yay :)
2020-06-15 12:02:15 @tomasino it's a sexy document
2020-06-15 12:02:22 tadzik the problem is, you still have 1024 bytes to fit in
2020-06-15 12:02:25 tadzik what if the URL is long?
2020-06-15 12:02:36 @tomasino i haven't checked it in a while, though. did you make many updates?
2020-06-15 12:02:54 solderpunk I mean, I floated the idea of bumping up that limit so we can just use ordinary Gemini requests with long queries to upload.
2020-06-15 12:02:54 `epochbot should URLs be allowed to be arbitrarily long anyway?
2020-06-15 12:03:05 tadzik iirc the whole "GET-like" line is 1024 bytes by spec, and the input thingy is supposed to be attached to a URL with a question mark
2020-06-15 12:03:09 solderpunk Not many people seemed interested.
2020-06-15 12:03:09 @tomasino 1024 bytes is a really long URL
2020-06-15 12:03:31 `epochbot I've actually used a really long URL before
2020-06-15 12:03:46 `epochbot but that was firefox shoving a whole base64'd cert into it
2020-06-15 12:04:05 `epochbot I'll setup a link shortener to point at one...
2020-06-15 12:04:11 tadzik it is. But now you end up with an awkward "the maximum upload size is 1024 minus the length of the current url", give or take an off-by-one
2020-06-15 12:04:26 `epochbot (since pasting the whole thing here would get split beween IRC lines)
2020-06-15 12:04:40 @tomasino ahh, it's not prompting and responding like we do with the search text thing?
2020-06-15 12:04:51 tadzik IPFS urls are fairly short. magnet links are a bit longer, probably still far from 1024 though
2020-06-15 12:05:06 @tomasino upload query, response: what do you want? upload <url> to <path> ?
2020-06-15 12:05:11 tadzik is't the search text thing just doing a requery?
2020-06-15 12:05:16 solderpunk I really don't want anybody to think I am opposed to "ordinary people" being able to publish on Gemini. I'm really, truly, not. I get that it's an important and worthwhile goal and I'm not opposed to it.
2020-06-15 12:05:52 solderpunk I just feel like after very nearly one year of hard work and long discussions and fierce debates we've ended up with something really nice which meets all the original goals and is still simple and elegant and implementable and think-about-able by almost anyone.
2020-06-15 12:06:09 solderpunk And now, at the very last minute, I feel under intense pressure to massively shift the goalpost.
2020-06-15 12:06:21 `epochbot tee hee. this link broke my shortener
2020-06-15 12:06:27 solderpunk For a good cause, but one that nobody mentioned even once for the past 11 months.
2020-06-15 12:06:44 @tomasino i have a thought
2020-06-15 12:06:47 solderpunk And I can easily see the full ramifications of this taking another year to flesh out.
2020-06-15 12:06:52 `epochbot (it probably had the Location: header too long for an HTTP's liking)
2020-06-15 12:07:13 @tomasino call me crazy... but couldn't you just do the "gemini server, please replace this page with content from this other URL, here's my cert" thing with cgi?
2020-06-15 12:07:15 solderpunk And that's another year we spend arguing about stuff on the mailing list instead of building stuff with the existing spec, whose capabilities we *still* haven't even began to fully explore.
2020-06-15 12:07:20 @tomasino does it need to be in the protocol at all?
2020-06-15 12:07:33 `epochbot ^ that's what I was just writing
2020-06-15 12:07:36 tadzik tomasino: that works, but I think the question is "how do we do that without requiring people to set up a server"
2020-06-15 12:07:42 solderpunk Sure, you could do that.
2020-06-15 12:07:52 @tomasino why would you not require people to set up a server?
2020-06-15 12:07:54 tadzik "here's a URL" requires you to be able to upload something somewhere in the first place
2020-06-15 12:07:56 solderpunk How does a "normal person" get the replacement content at a CGI.
2020-06-15 12:07:58 tadzik so it's a bit of a chicken and egg
2020-06-15 12:08:09 @tomasino oh, no, it just means you need to stage it somewhere for a second
2020-06-15 12:08:17 @tomasino and there are pastebins gallore
2020-06-15 12:08:33 tadzik and how do you upload to the pastebins? :)
2020-06-15 12:08:37 tadzik unless you help yourself with HTTP
2020-06-15 12:08:39 @tomasino some other network's problem
2020-06-15 12:09:01 tadzik in that case you may just say "gemini is read only and uploads are another protocol's problem"
2020-06-15 12:09:09 @tomasino why choose the world's simplest and easiest protocol to solve the hard problem?
2020-06-15 12:09:13 tadzik (which I think the current gemini+something:// idea boils down to)
2020-06-15 12:09:35 @tomasino (okay, that's finger, but still)
2020-06-15 12:09:56 @tomasino i don't think it's worth the cruft
2020-06-15 12:10:03 tadzik I think "let's not solve that problem at all" is a valid conclusion
2020-06-15 12:10:08 @tomasino this upload stuff will dwarf the rest of the spec
2020-06-15 12:10:30 solderpunk It really will.
2020-06-15 12:10:46 @tomasino we haven't even started talking about error handling
2020-06-15 12:10:51 solderpunk And saying "It's a separate protocol, called Titan, not Gemini!" could *easily* become just an empty trick of language.
2020-06-15 12:11:00 solderpunk If people end up expecting them to always work together.
2020-06-15 12:11:15 tadzik . o O ( the javascript of html )
2020-06-15 12:11:26 solderpunk Precisely.
2020-06-15 12:11:39 @tomasino gemscript... why not call it ruby. :P
2020-06-15 12:11:51 solderpunk I like the pastebin idea, actually.
2020-06-15 12:11:55 solderpunk I could be a super limited one.
2020-06-15 12:12:14 solderpunk Like, once the pasted content gets fetched over a Gemini URL once, it could be deleted from the server.
2020-06-15 12:12:28 @tomasino if someone wants to build a "wordpress" on gemini, they can do that entirely via their CGI
2020-06-15 12:12:40 @tomasino it could be a thing that colud be distributed as software that works ON gemini
2020-06-15 12:13:07 @tomasino it could itself become a pastebin that runs on another port and accepts cert signed blobs or some shit
2020-06-15 12:13:16 solderpunk I just worry that people will think it's too clunky.
2020-06-15 12:13:41 solderpunk I'm genuinely worried this whole thing is going to blow up into a "Gemini is only for elitist pubnix nerds" issue.
2020-06-15 12:13:47 @tomasino "everyday people" figured out how to use FTP for decades before wikis
2020-06-15 12:14:28 tadzik an ftp replacement in gemini's spirit would be a cool sister protocol :)
2020-06-15 12:14:39 solderpunk I really do think it's defeatist and self-fulfilling to say that everyday people will never be able to use sftp.
2020-06-15 12:15:38 @tomasino web publishing is also moving away from authoring in the browser. Static site generation solves so many problems
2020-06-15 12:15:59 solderpunk I don't see why Gemini, with good, user-friendly documentation served over Gemini, can't be a great vehicle to get people to start learning how to do stuff like that again.
2020-06-15 12:16:09 @tomasino that's true
2020-06-15 12:16:41 solderpunk I'm very tired of this mentality that people can't or won't learn to use things if you give them a good motivation.
2020-06-15 12:17:02 thombles Gemini is by design too simple to support maintaining a Gemini site in-band
2020-06-15 12:17:09 xq solderpunk: btw, you near-convinced me to your position here ;)
2020-06-15 12:17:17 @tomasino lets say kenanata builds a CGI based wiki and gbmor is sad that he can't figure out how to get a public address, well then cmccabe comes along and makes a program that will auto-stage and submit the content to said CGI doodad. Ecosystem solved it. No spec change
2020-06-15 12:17:18 xq i retreat from the upload discussion
2020-06-15 12:17:35 solderpunk Near-convinced but not fully?
2020-06-15 12:17:53 solderpunk If you have some lingering doubt, let us hear it! I don't want people to think I am trying to steamroll them.
2020-06-15 12:18:12 solderpunk Especially not because of some vain, abstact aesthetic preference for minimalism.
2020-06-15 12:18:45 solderpunk (I see minimalism in tech as being in *direct service* of security, reliability, etc)
2020-06-15 12:19:00 @tomasino we were arguing against the creation of a "> " line type because of fear it might lead to a ">> " line type. And now we're talking about tripling the size of the spec to add in full CRUD
2020-06-15 12:19:10 tadzik heh
2020-06-15 12:19:10 solderpunk Haha.
2020-06-15 12:19:11 xq <solderpunk> (I see minimalism in tech as being in *direct service* of security, reliability, etc)
2020-06-15 12:19:11 xq true
2020-06-15 12:19:13 solderpunk Very true.
2020-06-15 12:19:16 xq and on the near-convinced
2020-06-15 12:19:22 xq it's a gut feeling thingy
2020-06-15 12:19:26 xq nothing technical
2020-06-15 12:19:54 solderpunk Fair enough.
2020-06-15 12:19:54 xq i just love spaces where there is a low-entry on content creation/publishing
2020-06-15 12:20:01 @tomasino hey solderpunk, is there any way via MIME type to indicate a resource is a stream and not a document?
2020-06-15 12:20:07 @tomasino that's categorical info, right?
2020-06-15 12:20:12 xq imho that's the reason why twitter/tumblr/… are so popular. it's easy
2020-06-15 12:20:34 @tomasino stream/gemini or something?
2020-06-15 12:20:42 @tomasino or octec+stream:/text/gemini
2020-06-15 12:20:45 @tomasino i dunno the formatting of mimes
2020-06-15 12:20:53 thombles I would say that text/gemini is a stream to begin with
2020-06-15 12:21:04 thombles There is never any reason not to process it line by line
2020-06-15 12:21:07 solderpunk tomasino: Good question. I have no idea how streaming music over HTTP works, what is the Content-type header set to there?
2020-06-15 12:21:07 xq thombles: it's kinda not, it's a file.
2020-06-15 12:21:16 xq the idea of tomasino is more a music stream
2020-06-15 12:21:18 xq never-ending
2020-06-15 12:21:25 `epochbot just need clients to implement it in a certain way if people want it displayed as it comes in instead of at EOF?
2020-06-15 12:21:45 @tomasino yeah, because gemtext is uniquely situated to act as a fully parsable stream, i'd like to explore using it that way
2020-06-15 12:21:52 @tomasino but all the clients are assuming document downloads
2020-06-15 12:21:59 @tomasino waiting on the server to hang up and then parse
2020-06-15 12:22:04 thombles Guilty lol
2020-06-15 12:22:06 solderpunk Huh.
2020-06-15 12:22:09 solderpunk Yeah, guilty too.
2020-06-15 12:22:12 `epochbot ditto
2020-06-15 12:22:12 xq same
2020-06-15 12:22:13 solderpunk But I'm super intrigued by exploring this.
2020-06-15 12:22:15 thombles But I think you should challenge that assumption
2020-06-15 12:22:20 thombles And set up something so we all fix it
2020-06-15 12:22:26 solderpunk Argh, friggin' heck!
2020-06-15 12:22:32 @tomasino haha
2020-06-15 12:22:34 solderpunk THAT is how you do something like IRC over Gemini.
2020-06-15 12:22:35 xq music streams via gemini :3
2020-06-15 12:22:39 @tomasino yep!
2020-06-15 12:22:41 xq haha
2020-06-15 12:22:53 xq text/gemini stream + input queries + client certs => distributed chat!
2020-06-15 12:23:12 @tomasino wow, i was just thinking read-only realtime peek at IRC chan
2020-06-15 12:23:14 @tomasino but yeah
2020-06-15 12:23:25 `epochbot one tab just 10ing over and over and another showing output?
2020-06-15 12:23:31 solderpunk Exactly.
2020-06-15 12:23:40 xq yep
2020-06-15 12:23:41 solderpunk And those two tabs could be integrated into a single application.
2020-06-15 12:24:01 xq i think kristall needs a stream handling option … :D
2020-06-15 12:24:09 thombles In terms of a streamable text/gemini, for most purposes there is little difference between incremental loading and streaming. There are just questions on what do you do if it's an intentionally long stream? If it's a GUI client to do you auto-scroll-to-bottom? Do you let the server hold the connection open as long as it wants even if there's no data?
2020-06-15 12:24:16 `epochbot you could watch your logs if you want.
2020-06-15 12:24:39 @tomasino being able to differentiate between document and stream would allow clients to handle them uniquely
2020-06-15 12:24:40 xq `epochbot, exactly my thought :D
2020-06-15 12:24:45 @tomasino and offer things like "always show the latest"
2020-06-15 12:24:46 xq dmesg -w | gemini-server
2020-06-15 12:25:18 `epochbot (I've been sending my logs to an IRC channel for at least a decade by now)
2020-06-15 12:25:30 solderpunk Man, client cert secured remote tailing of logs!
2020-06-15 12:25:40 solderpunk That's super nice.
2020-06-15 12:25:43 xq the possibilities!
2020-06-15 12:25:49 xq super nice indeed
2020-06-15 12:25:49 @tomasino this is a much more exciting line of thinking than uploads
2020-06-15 12:25:50 @tomasino :P
2020-06-15 12:25:55 thombles Having thought about it for a minute, I think these are purely client side options
2020-06-15 12:26:13 solderpunk That's kind of my point! We literally have not even begun to scratch the surface of what can be done with what is already specced.
2020-06-15 12:26:19 solderpunk And people are already hollering for a whole load more.
2020-06-15 12:26:37 @tomasino want me to write something about streams to the ML? start that ball rolling?
2020-06-15 12:26:50 xq +1
2020-06-15 12:26:59 solderpunk I fear it's never going to end if I don't turn into a stereotypical FOSS leader asshole like Theo de Radt.
2020-06-15 12:27:11 solderpunk Raddt?
2020-06-15 12:27:17 @tomasino hehe
2020-06-15 12:27:22 solderpunk Anyway, I don't have it in me to do that.
2020-06-15 12:27:31 solderpunk But this thing has to be called "done" at some point.
2020-06-15 12:27:39 @tomasino i think you're ready for a freeze
2020-06-15 12:27:46 @tomasino personally
2020-06-15 12:27:51 thombles ^
2020-06-15 12:28:01 @tomasino the stream question isn't really spec related
2020-06-15 12:28:06 xq i haven't read the latest spec update (shame on me), but i think we're quitie done with discussing stuff
2020-06-15 12:28:13 @tomasino it's clarification on mimes and how people are constructing clients
2020-06-15 12:28:40 xq i have to restructure Kristall for that
2020-06-15 12:28:46 xq but it was on the todolist anyways
2020-06-15 12:28:49 @tomasino hopping on a client call now. I'll try to knock out this ML email here in a few min
2020-06-15 12:28:52 thombles At a higher level, it looks like the recent upload discussions have been driven primarily by wiki enthusiasts, and then a number of others of us have been wondering what this means for general purpose in-band authoring (tentative conclusion: ugh)
2020-06-15 12:28:55 xq have some unification for different operational modes
2020-06-15 12:29:30 `epochbot printf "gemini://gemini.thebackupbox.net/datestream\r\n" | openssl s_client -quiet -connect 21.41.41.1:1965
2020-06-15 12:29:37 `epochbot infinite text file of date
2020-06-15 12:30:31 thombles From the wiki perspective it's almost elegant because you can use CGI to handle anything more complicated than pure upload of bulk text
2020-06-15 12:31:51 thombles Maybe I'm biased but I don't think using a CMS by default is a popular proposition
2020-06-15 12:31:58 thombles And if we don't have that, we need full CRUD as somebody mentioned earlier
2020-06-15 12:32:14 `epochbot gemini://gemini.thebackupbox.net/upload will ask for a URL with a 10 that it will then download and place into /incoming/
2020-06-15 12:32:27 `epochbot (and name the timestamp of when you did it)
2020-06-15 12:33:22 `epochbot now the hard part of making my client able to /not/ try to cache the whole response before trying to display it.
2020-06-15 12:33:36 `epochbot it needs to be tee cache_file | handler
2020-06-15 12:33:46 `epochbot instead of > cache_file ; handler < cache_file
2020-06-15 12:33:58 `epochbot :)
2020-06-15 12:34:13 xq solderpunk: some input on the client certificate topic:
2020-06-15 12:34:18 xq *server certificate*
2020-06-15 12:34:25 xq a keypair is your identity
2020-06-15 12:34:38 solderpunk Alright, later tonight I will announce those recent spec change proposals as accepted and then freeze the spec for at least 4 months.
2020-06-15 12:34:44 solderpunk Correct.
2020-06-15 12:34:50 solderpunk Well, your public key is your identity.
2020-06-15 12:34:54 solderpunk Well.
2020-06-15 12:34:57 xq kinda
2020-06-15 12:34:57 solderpunk Maybe :p
2020-06-15 12:35:05 solderpunk I think really your hostname is your identity.
2020-06-15 12:35:08 xq if you exchange the key, you exchange your identity and there's no way to *safely* convey that identity
2020-06-15 12:35:16 thombles I did wonder, is it normal to just keep fingerprints? Like SSH for example just stores the whole public key because why not
2020-06-15 12:35:17 xq well, i can change host name, but keep the key
2020-06-15 12:35:30 xq thombles: ssh has no certificates
2020-06-15 12:35:43 thombles I know, but authorized_keys does store a whole public key i nit
2020-06-15 12:35:53 solderpunk AV-98 stores the entire key.
2020-06-15 12:35:58 xq and i think the certificate idea is okay, because TLS requires this
2020-06-15 12:36:12 xq but we should do the SSH thing (use keypairs as an identity, not certificates)
2020-06-15 12:36:26 xq so having a key expire is imho the wrong way
2020-06-15 12:36:41 xq certificates are meant to expire, but we could just use absurdly high live spans
2020-06-15 12:36:50 solderpunk Right, TLS *requires* it, we can't just do keys, ala SSH. But a self-signed certificate is basically the closest thing you can get to a cert with "signature=null", and I encourage people to think abou them as just keys.
2020-06-15 12:36:50 xq but we shouldn't exchange the privkey in the backend
2020-06-15 12:36:59 solderpunk I mean, keys *should* expire eventually.
2020-06-15 12:37:09 solderpunk Otherwise the risk of compromise eventually becomes a certainty.
2020-06-15 12:37:14 solderpunk But certainly they can have lifespans of years.
2020-06-15 12:38:04 solderpunk I certainly don't think Gemini servers using self-signed certs and targetting TOFU clients should be changing key and cert every three months.
2020-06-15 12:39:02 thombles The comment about LE rotating privkeys was interesting - I assume people already have certbot on their system and they're reusing the same cert for convenience?
2020-06-15 12:39:35 solderpunk I am using LE for gemini.circumlunar.space because there's also a HTTPS server on it and I was lazy.
2020-06-15 12:39:40 solderpunk But I think I will change soon.
2020-06-15 12:39:53 solderpunk I think many people are doing it just because they have no idea that anything else is possible.
2020-06-15 12:40:04 solderpunk A lot of people who flocked to the project after the HN post totally missed the TOFU thing.
2020-06-15 12:40:24 solderpunk And made posts to the ML talking about how "for some reason lots of people in Geminispace aren't setting up their certs correctly".
2020-06-15 12:40:34 thombles lol
2020-06-15 12:41:10 solderpunk I will write some kind of gentle intro to certs and TOFU and stuff One Day After The Freeze.
2020-06-15 12:41:57 solderpunk And eventually maybe a cron-jobbable tool to implement some of these ideas, like pre-advertising new cert fingerprints.
2020-06-15 12:42:12 xq btw, tomasino: you shouldn't reply to wild emails on the mailing list to start new topics
2020-06-15 12:42:16 thombles I was thinking about how matrix allowed self-signed certs for servers but I see they changed it for synapse 1.0 and now you need to use LE et al
2020-06-15 12:42:31 @tomasino oh did that not just start a new thread?
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2020-06-15 12:42:39 xq nope :D
2020-06-15 12:42:46 xq same with your video announcement
2020-06-15 12:42:55 @tomasino good to know!
2020-06-15 12:43:00 @tomasino sorry about that
2020-06-15 12:43:29 @tomasino i'm gonna have to add the ML as a contact and start a new email, i guess
2020-06-15 12:44:30 solderpunk It's totally overkill, but I still want to write some kind of smol Gemini certificate observatory daemon and get AV-98 to consult it when it sees a new cert.
2020-06-15 12:44:40 ⚡ tiwesdaeg finally catches up with reading backlogs
2020-06-15 12:44:45 dkibi I saw the TOFU stuff, but then completely ignored what that implies and used the usual Let's encrypt stuff. will be fun when that runs out -.-
2020-06-15 12:44:50 solderpunk Oh hai tiwesdaeg.
2020-06-15 12:44:53 ~tiwesdaeg heya
2020-06-15 12:45:05 thombles dkibi: Don't worry, guarantee 90% of clients are just blindly trusting certs :)
2020-06-15 12:45:13 xq haha :D
2020-06-15 12:45:23 solderpunk Eeek, I hope that's not true. But you're probably right.
2020-06-15 12:45:23 xq i'm working on that for Kristall
2020-06-15 12:45:31 xq i have to admin: i'm guilty
2020-06-15 12:45:44 solderpunk It's early days. We will Get Better.
2020-06-15 12:45:45 xq started to do the menuing stuff already though :)
2020-06-15 12:45:53 dkibi but at least because of that it seems like I was the first to use a ECDSA cert xD
2020-06-15 12:46:05 solderpunk We will write tools to make it easier for others to Get Better too.
2020-06-15 12:46:15 dkibi and could report a bug to my distribution xD
2020-06-15 12:46:24 xq btw, hype: https://mq32.de/public/414a1330cf537c15b9e68e9c77deb40b089a8a20.jpg
2020-06-15 12:46:36 solderpunk I wanna try using a ed25519 cert for gemini.circumlunar.space, to make the cert as small as possible.
2020-06-15 12:46:46 ~tiwesdaeg did we get anywhere with the idea that you can use DNS to certify a cert?
2020-06-15 12:46:48 `epochbot could somehow get people to setup an offline CA and use that to sign all their new certs and.... yeah. not likely.
2020-06-15 12:46:48 xq dkibi: i should change certificate generation in Kristall to ECDSA as well
2020-06-15 12:46:52 solderpunk Whoo!
2020-06-15 12:46:53 ~tiwesdaeg I can't remember what it's called
2020-06-15 12:47:02 solderpunk It's called DANE.
2020-06-15 12:47:05 solderpunk It's totally a thing.
2020-06-15 12:47:20 solderpunk For it to REALLY work, people need to sign their DNS records using DNSSEC.
2020-06-15 12:47:24 solderpunk But nobody does that.
2020-06-15 12:47:28 ~tiwesdaeg my phone can't wait
2020-06-15 12:47:46 solderpunk However, it KIND OF works even without DNSSEC if you use something like dnscrypt.
2020-06-15 12:48:01 `epochbot I do DNSSEC
2020-06-15 12:48:07 ~tiwesdaeg does it require extra software or just a properly configured DNS record?
2020-06-15 12:48:12 `epochbot pretty comfy when using knotd
2020-06-15 12:48:19 solderpunk (in the sense that for your ISP to MITM you, they'd need to also be able to simultaneously attack your DNS provider)
2020-06-15 12:48:27 solderpunk Okay, corect, `epochbot uses DNSSEC. :p
2020-06-15 12:48:44 dkibi thombles: well bombadillo does check and is somewhat widely used
2020-06-15 12:48:50 ~tiwesdaeg I'm just thinking, with all this TOFU and cert expiration dates
2020-06-15 12:49:07 thombles dkibi: That's good! I'm just being flippant :)
2020-06-15 12:49:08 dkibi I think otrn.org has dnssec
2020-06-15 12:49:20 @tomasino DNSSEC is signed for ino.is and tomasino.is!
2020-06-15 12:49:28 @tomasino :D
2020-06-15 12:51:48 @tomasino i can't quite get it to work all teh way for tomasino.org
2020-06-15 12:52:06 thombles ISPs are usually DNS providers too aren't they?
2020-06-15 12:52:14 dkibi at some point I want to actually understand TLS xD but that's far into the future
2020-06-15 12:53:42 `epochbot ISPs are usually DNS providers for the domains they own? I'm not sure what rate of them self-host or host it somewhere else.
2020-06-15 12:54:01 `epochbot but most of them will at least run their own caches
2020-06-15 12:54:06 thombles the F5 DevCentral youtube channel has some amazing 10-15 minute explanations of TLS
2020-06-15 12:54:34 thombles that's how I learnt what the deal is with TLS 1.3 and its cipher restrictions
2020-06-15 12:56:17 `epochbot tomasino: https://dnssec-analyzer.verisignlabs.com/tomasino.is looks good here.
2020-06-15 12:56:39 xq tiwesdaeg: for android, i need to restructure the UI to be usable. the settings menu is just too big for everything
2020-06-15 12:56:42 @tomasino ISNIC was set up great for it
2020-06-15 12:56:54 @tomasino Namesilo choked on one key type
2020-06-15 12:56:57 `epochbot https://dnsviz.net/d/tomasino.is/dnssec/ this had an error, but it looks like a down DNS server higher up the chain
2020-06-15 12:57:11 solderpunk Okay, so those of you who have DNSSEC working: you can stick a DANE record with your self-signed cert (or its fingerprint? I forget) in there.
2020-06-15 12:57:24 solderpunk When a TOFU client first sees your cert, it can use DNS to validate it.
2020-06-15 12:57:29 solderpunk Then accept it automatically without bugging the uesr.
2020-06-15 12:57:36 solderpunk And then scream loudly if it ever changes.
2020-06-15 12:57:39 ~tiwesdaeg xq: I can be patient, I swear
2020-06-15 12:57:48 @tomasino I am going to have to Google half those words
2020-06-15 12:57:55 @tomasino ;)
2020-06-15 12:58:14 `epochbot should a cert have both a DANE /and/ be signed by Lets Encrypt, DANE wins I assume?
2020-06-15 12:58:36 `epochbot do you trust DNSSEC more, or LE?
2020-06-15 12:58:41 solderpunk If you're using a CA like LE, you can use a different kind of DANE record to say "Only LE are allowed to sign for my domain".
2020-06-15 12:59:17 solderpunk And that then solves the problem that any one of the hundreds or thousands of CAs your browser trusts by default can sign for your domain.
2020-06-15 12:59:49 `epochbot I'll add DANE stuff to my todo list.
2020-06-15 13:00:02 @tomasino Oh, and solderpunk... Directory traversal was the big security hole in jetforce that prompted the release a few weeks back
2020-06-15 13:00:11 solderpunk Aaah, is that so?
2020-06-15 13:00:37 @tomasino Yep! I realized I could see my own private key and logged it in GitHub
2020-06-15 13:00:37 solderpunk Much like the simple TLS intro, One Day After The Freeze I'll write some kind of "Common gotchas for server/client implementors".
2020-06-15 13:00:47 ~tiwesdaeg tomasino: on a scale of gemini server to postfix/dovecot, how hard is DNSSEC to setup?
2020-06-15 13:00:47 solderpunk Ouch!
2020-06-15 13:00:59 @tomasino 0.3
2020-06-15 13:01:28 @tomasino I don't grok everything being done but the steps are limited
2020-06-15 13:01:34 ~tiwesdaeg ok
2020-06-15 13:01:44 @tomasino A lot of the difficulty depends on your DNS provider
2020-06-15 13:01:46 ~tiwesdaeg I'll poke around at it tomorrow when I am stuck at work
2020-06-15 13:01:52 `epochbot I just noticed I had my gemini daemon running as root for the last few weeks
2020-06-15 13:02:17 solderpunk So glad I made the default port above 1024 :p
2020-06-15 13:02:24 ~tiwesdaeg I'm using namecheap's DNS
2020-06-15 13:02:48 thombles solderpunk: Throwing a bone to the golang devs :)
2020-06-15 13:02:56 `epochbot now if only it'd error if root tried to use a higher port
2020-06-15 13:03:01 solderpunk `epochbot: Which is your server?
2020-06-15 13:03:31 `epochbot it doesn't have a name, just geminid
2020-06-15 13:03:39 `epochbot lemme get a link to it
2020-06-15 13:04:34 `epochbot looks like I haven't put it onto github yet.
2020-06-15 13:05:04 solderpunk Oh, I meant the host, not the software, anyway.
2020-06-15 13:05:32 solderpunk Like, can I connect your username here to some content I've seen on CAPCOM or something?
2020-06-15 13:06:05 `epochbot oh, heh. gemini://gemini.thebackupbox.net/
2020-06-15 13:06:28 `epochbot I don't really have much content, I just have hacks
2020-06-15 13:06:50 solderpunk The <blink> tags!!1
2020-06-15 13:06:54 `epochbot :>
2020-06-15 13:06:56 solderpunk My eyes, the goggles do nothing!
2020-06-15 13:08:05 `epochbot git://thebackupbox.net/shell-daemons has geminid in it if you want to find exploits and get an unprivileged user on a half-broke raspi 1
2020-06-15 13:08:49 solderpunk Haha.
2020-06-15 13:09:45 `epochbot I ran a wargame from home for a long time... should set one back up sometime.
2020-06-15 13:09:53 `epochbot use all my previous bugs as levels
2020-06-15 13:10:00 xq > GMI? Genetically Modified... Internet?
2020-06-15 13:10:02 xq nice
2020-06-15 13:10:06 ~tiwesdaeg Would you like to play a game?
2020-06-15 13:10:23 xq Let's play "global thermonuclear war", that sounds great
2020-06-15 13:10:27 @tomasino how about a nice game of chess?
2020-06-15 13:10:53 `epochbot hrm...
2020-06-15 13:11:01 `epochbot that'd be a cool thing to make
2020-06-15 13:11:12 `epochbot like, get that list and implement all the games on it.
2020-06-15 13:11:16 ~tiwesdaeg I really need to watch that movie with the kids
2020-06-15 13:11:34 dkibi oh I like this
2020-06-15 13:11:39 `epochbot I already have a chess interface and a tic-tac-toe interface, but they still need work.
2020-06-15 13:11:48 `epochbot and I have a vector-map of the earth
2020-06-15 13:11:54 thombles `epochbot: what is uricut?
2020-06-15 13:12:17 `epochbot it is a tool I made to more easily get parts out of a URI
2020-06-15 13:12:26 thombles oh I see
2020-06-15 13:12:27 `epochbot lemme copy-paste a demo...
2020-06-15 13:12:58 ~tiwesdaeg http://www.quartzcity.net/ilx/wopr-game-list_design.png
2020-06-15 13:13:03 `epochbot $ echo 'scheme://user:pass@host:port/path?query_string#fragment' | uricut
2020-06-15 13:13:03 `epochbot scheme: scheme
2020-06-15 13:13:03 `epochbot username: user
2020-06-15 13:13:03 `epochbot password: pass
2020-06-15 13:13:03 `epochbot domain: host
2020-06-15 13:13:03 `epochbot port: port
2020-06-15 13:13:03 `epochbot path: /path
2020-06-15 13:13:04 `epochbot query_string: query_string
2020-06-15 13:13:04 `epochbot fragment_id: fragment
2020-06-15 13:13:04 `epochbot whole_uri: scheme://user:pass@host:port/path?query_string#fragment
2020-06-15 13:13:27 `epochbot if you give uricut arguments you can select out specific pieces in the order the arguments are in.
2020-06-15 13:13:33 solderpunk Does it throw a fatal error if you feed it a gemini://user:pass@ address? :p
2020-06-15 13:13:50 `epochbot no, it takes a best guess.
2020-06-15 13:13:51 thombles lol okay I see how this works now
2020-06-15 13:14:32 `epochbot looks like atm it has an empty path and domain
2020-06-15 13:15:36 dkibi ohhhh having a crt simulator in a gemini client *.*
2020-06-15 13:16:09 `epochbot uricut is part of the uritools repo btw
2020-06-15 13:16:15 `epochbot written in C, no regex
2020-06-15 13:16:25 `epochbot https://github.com/kkabrams/uritools
2020-06-15 13:16:28 `epochbot that one is on github
2020-06-15 13:18:37 kensanata has quit (Ping timeout: 120 seconds)
2020-06-15 13:18:47 `epochbot and the .hackvr files are for some 3D... user interface program?
2020-06-15 13:19:38 `epochbot which works with just stdin and stdout
2020-06-15 13:20:33 `epochbot (well, and the X11 file descriptor that is used for getting user input for camera movement and rotation)
2020-06-15 13:22:14 anton has quit (Client exited)
2020-06-15 13:34:14 thombles `epochbot: assuming "normalpath" does what it sounds like ("readlink -f"?) then that script looks safe to me
2020-06-15 13:34:37 `epochbot it doesn't
2020-06-15 13:34:53 `epochbot readlink -f requires the file to exist afaik
2020-06-15 13:35:11 `epochbot which is why I wrote my own thing
2020-06-15 13:35:16 thombles aha makes sense
2020-06-15 13:35:19 `epochbot I'll see if I can find which repo I left that in
2020-06-15 13:35:20 thombles but the same spirit
2020-06-15 13:35:36 `epochbot it filters out ../s and extra ./
2020-06-15 13:36:13 `epochbot copied normalpath.c to /var/gemini
2020-06-15 13:39:39 thombles ah mate that's hectic
2020-06-15 13:39:52 thombles I'm going to bed lol
2020-06-15 13:39:59 `epochbot XD alright, g'night
2020-06-15 13:40:09 thombles night folks
2020-06-15 13:40:12 solderpunk 'night!
2020-06-15 13:42:31 `epochbot I'm gonna switch from play to work, so hilit if you need me, I'll be tabbed out.
2020-06-15 13:50:47 solderpunk Righto!
2020-06-15 14:06:50 ▬▬▶ kensanata has joined #gemini
2020-06-15 14:08:50 solderpunk Hey kensanata!
2020-06-15 14:17:22 ▬▬▶ acdw has joined #gemini
2020-06-15 14:19:58 kensanata Hello!
2020-06-15 14:26:48 solderpunk I'm really sad we don't see eye to eye on the read-write thing. :(
2020-06-15 14:28:51 kensanata Don't worry. I was sad yesterday. Writing that blog post got it out of my system.
2020-06-15 14:32:37 solderpunk It's still a shame that sometimes really good ideas can be in conflict with one another.
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2020-06-15 14:37:15 kensanata Generally speaking I'm mostly interested in how this is going to move forward. Some of the alternatives proposed would be things I will never implement, like a system accepting mails as contributions, or a system that accepts screen fulls of a few hundred bytes, or solutions that are otherwise made deliberately harder to implement. So, I don't know. I feel like I'd simply be repeating myself if I continued the discussion.
2020-06-15 14:38:05 kensanata From my point of view, I think the best way forward is to argue less and program more, because that's what I enjoy more. :)
2020-06-15 14:46:24 xq kensanata: true!
2020-06-15 14:49:03 kensanata Also, I'm unhappy about being unable to get the common name from a client certificate on my server because I don't understand what's going on. :D
2020-06-15 14:53:32 acdw Hey I have a question for yall, regarding certs. For bollux it's looking like I have 2 options: I can (a) download the whole response, cert and all, to disk, then split the response into cert-part for verification, TOFU, etc, and the content part for display; or (b) connect to the server 2x, once for cert stuff, again for content. I'm thinking the
2020-06-15 14:53:32 acdw first one but I'd love input from all of yall smart people.
2020-06-15 14:53:55 xq huh
2020-06-15 14:53:59 xq why is that?
2020-06-15 14:54:08 xq what do you use as a tech base for bollux?
2020-06-15 14:54:14 @tomasino bash
2020-06-15 14:54:21 xq oh :D
2020-06-15 14:54:28 @tomasino hehe
2020-06-15 14:54:36 acdw yeah ------ I'm only slightly regretting it
2020-06-15 14:54:49 @tomasino it's valuable
2020-06-15 14:54:52 @tomasino love it
2020-06-15 14:54:56 acdw also good morning to everyone
2020-06-15 14:54:57 acdw :)
2020-06-15 14:55:02 acdw thanks tomasino
2020-06-15 14:59:26 kensanata acdw: I'd download to disk; later I'm sure you'll be able to do something using variables and pipes and whatnot. But in order to get something that works, save to disk if you need to. That's better than connecting twice.
2020-06-15 14:59:42 acdw yeah that's what I thought. plus I'd get caching for free.
2020-06-15 14:59:48 ⚡ acdw afk
2020-06-15 15:00:04 kensanata Some would say that cachine is never "free"...
2020-06-15 15:19:46 lickthecat has quit (Ping timeout: 120 seconds)
2020-06-15 15:35:29 kensanata I added links to the history of wiki pages...
2020-06-15 15:54:36 kensanata has quit (Ping timeout: 120 seconds)
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2020-06-15 16:04:10 acdw kensanata: yes I suppose so, haha
2020-06-15 16:09:22 acdw also you're right on getting *something* out there that works, and this is quite important
2020-06-15 17:07:02 solderpunk has quit (Ping timeout: 120 seconds)
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2020-06-15 17:44:51 xq > a point the demosceners amongst us
2020-06-15 17:44:51 xq will attest to!
2020-06-15 17:44:54 xq i feel adressed!
2020-06-15 17:49:52 mhj Oh, so you're so one of those... hmph! ... I love it!
2020-06-15 17:50:34 xq *grins*
2020-06-15 17:50:40 xq i have two hardware demos
2020-06-15 17:50:55 xq abusing a small heater control thingy with a display and a beeper D
2020-06-15 17:51:19 mhj Heh, nice
2020-06-15 17:51:44 xq i'm on the train atm, we can discuss/chat about this in ~1.5h if you want :)
2020-06-15 17:53:02 mhj Sounds good :D
2020-06-15 18:50:29 paper is there a tilde with gemini cgi hosting?
2020-06-15 18:50:42 acdw ooh cgi would be awesome
2020-06-15 18:52:18 paper I have some scripts I would like to host on gemini, but I don't have a pretty domain on my server
2020-06-15 18:53:26 @ben i have gemini cgi set up on tilde.team
2020-06-15 18:54:02 @ben i think tiwesdaeg has it set up on tilde.pink too
2020-06-15 18:55:10 ⚡ xq is working on the Kristall TOFU implementation:
2020-06-15 18:55:10 xq https://mq32.de/public/8618c5b73891d790ac11d1ac4c7fceef46638da3.png
2020-06-15 18:55:14 paper ben: oh, I have a team account, thanks, I will try it
2020-06-15 18:55:27 @ben gemini://tilde.team/
2020-06-15 18:55:38 @ben you should show up there when you mkdir ~/public_gemini/
2020-06-15 18:59:06 paper yup, I am there, thanks
2020-06-15 19:02:14 acdw xq: very nice! I'm loving the look and use of kristall. I might have to learn C++ just so I can steal your ideas to bash :)
2020-06-15 19:09:23 xq haha
2020-06-15 19:09:36 xq i don't think you have to learn C++ for that
2020-06-15 19:09:39 xq code should be pretty readable
2020-06-15 19:17:07 acdw oh! I'll take a crack at it :)
2020-06-15 19:19:45 @tomasino i haven't tried cgi on jetforce
2020-06-15 19:19:50 @tomasino but we have jetforce on ~black
2020-06-15 19:19:53 @tomasino it might already work
2020-06-15 19:24:37 paper thanks for the offer, but I will go with team for now
2020-06-15 19:27:46 acdw tomasino: I might try on ~black, though I (a) have no idea how CGI even works and (b) have no ideas on what to do. So no promises on timeline
2020-06-15 19:30:25 paper I have a few scripts for local news + weather, it would be nice if we had something like a usable interface to github on gemini.
2020-06-15 19:31:38 paper The main advantage for me is the low network usage. Instead of loading a 5MB website, I can request a gemini version of it and get the same info in a few KB.
2020-06-15 19:32:36 xq paper: for funsies: try using KRistall with HTTPS enabled and browse github :D
2020-06-15 19:32:50 acdw +1 to that. I know there's already a text.npr.org mirror on gemini somewhere
2020-06-15 19:33:29 xq https://mq32.de/public/3be070fbc5689fedd3b111fceaad245ba9c62a36.png
2020-06-15 19:33:31 xq it's really fast :D
2020-06-15 19:33:45 paper xq: I know, but it isn't optimised for viewing in this way
2020-06-15 19:33:48 paper it's ugly
2020-06-15 19:33:51 xq stimmt
2020-06-15 19:33:58 xq *right
2020-06-15 19:34:08 ⚡ xq has to stop chatting in multiple languages :D
2020-06-15 19:34:12 paper acdw: we should create a list of gemini mirrors somewhere
2020-06-15 19:34:43 acdw Lol. Gemini version of github is going to look very similar. If it's "ugly" with stripped down HTML it'll be "ugly" in text/gemini
2020-06-15 19:34:55 xq yeah, maybe even more so
2020-06-15 19:34:57 acdw but yes paper we should :) I will start on a list and put it somewhere
2020-06-15 19:35:00 xq the table is actually looking very usable
2020-06-15 19:35:09 acdw that was my first thought xq
2020-06-15 19:35:24 xq i really like the QTextDocument feature
2020-06-15 19:35:31 xq it's near-perfect for our application of small internet
2020-06-15 19:35:40 xq enough features with hyperlinking, tables, lists, paragraphs
2020-06-15 19:35:44 paper I thought something like querying the API and parsing it into a usable format
2020-06-15 19:35:48 xq but it's not a ultra-slow web renderer
2020-06-15 19:36:11 acdw that could work paper
2020-06-15 19:38:53 dkibi julienxx, tomasino I found a creative commons gamebook, will try to gemify later and see how well it works
2020-06-15 19:39:05 dkibi http://gametale.eu/
2020-06-15 19:40:43 @julienxx dkibi: Cool! Moar games!
2020-06-15 19:41:30 dkibi it's very child oriented, but I think it might make a good test how well that can work
2020-06-15 19:43:15 acdw oh this looks like a lot of fun!
2020-06-15 20:08:32 xj9 i want to enable cgi on sunshinegardens.org, but idk when i'll get to it
2020-06-15 20:12:11 paper tomasino: it seems like jetforce only executes scripts in server's cgi-bin, not in user's cgi-bin :(
2020-06-15 20:12:42 @tomasino ahha
2020-06-15 20:12:49 @tomasino cool beans
2020-06-15 20:12:51 @tomasino good to know
2020-06-15 20:13:46 @tomasino i don't think jetforce even has userdirs
2020-06-15 20:13:53 @tomasino i faked it on black with symlinks
2020-06-15 20:14:25 paper_ aha xD
2020-06-15 20:14:51 @tomasino :D
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2020-06-15 21:08:12 xq mhj, still there?
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2020-06-15 21:45:05 dkibi oh gnah that game book is ND
2020-06-15 21:46:33 xq ND?
2020-06-15 21:51:20 dkibi no-derivative
2020-06-15 21:52:03 dkibi it seems to still be possible to convert format, but I think taking some abandond gamebook by a long dead publisher is probably a better idea xD
2020-06-15 21:52:28 dkibi or developing creative writting skills, but that will take longer
2020-06-15 21:53:02 mhj I'm here xq
2020-06-15 21:53:05 xq \o/
2020-06-15 21:53:13 ⚡ xq is setting something up for the community!
2020-06-15 21:53:27 mhj I'm on like IRC, Discord, Telegram and tildetown lol
2020-06-15 21:53:33 mhj All at the same time
2020-06-15 21:53:53 acdw oh I'm excited xq!
2020-06-15 21:54:26 mhj Sounds good xq, can't wait to see it
2020-06-15 21:54:31 xq hehe
2020-06-15 21:54:38 xq it will be a new gemini host
2020-06-15 21:54:38 acdw dkibi: I'm working on adapting my short choosable-path story to gemini, just want to add some sahweet ascii art
2020-06-15 21:54:49 xq serving up a file where a single sentence is written
2020-06-15 21:54:56 xq "Your client works"
2020-06-15 21:54:58 xq *grin*
2020-06-15 21:55:50 xq but there's a catch
2020-06-15 21:56:02 xq it will recreate its certificate and key pair all 5 minutes
2020-06-15 21:58:17 dkibi acdw:
2020-06-15 21:58:23 dkibi \o/
2020-06-15 21:58:35 mhj You know what would rock? A gemini client that could run on the pinebookpro/pinephone etc
2020-06-15 21:58:53 acdw mhj: isn't that any client in a scripting language that compiles for ARM?
2020-06-15 21:58:58 acdw at least the pro
2020-06-15 21:58:58 mhj And a server for the Pine A64
2020-06-15 21:59:01 mhj Ahhhh
2020-06-15 21:59:03 mhj True
2020-06-15 21:59:04 acdw *pinebook pro
2020-06-15 21:59:32 acdw dkibi: I'll let you know when it's up! I just have to type it up basically. I'd love to get started on some more.
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2020-06-15 22:34:34 xq aaand it's done!
2020-06-15 22:34:35 xq gemini://tofu-tester.random-projects.net:1966/
2020-06-15 22:36:59 makeworld Cool
2020-06-15 22:37:06 makeworld How long are the certs for?
2020-06-15 22:37:51 xq the cert is created for 24h
2020-06-15 22:37:55 @tomasino they're good for 1000 years, but have a half-life that is triggered every time they're used. 0.o
2020-06-15 22:37:57 xq but!
2020-06-15 22:37:59 @tomasino :P
2020-06-15 22:38:37 xq the server is restarted every 5 minutes, alternating between an RSA and an ECDSA key
2020-06-15 22:38:39 @tomasino (don't listen to me)
2020-06-15 22:38:44 @tomasino omg
2020-06-15 22:38:55 xq which means: TEST YOUR CLIENTS
2020-06-15 22:39:00 @tomasino :D
2020-06-15 22:39:01 acdw oh this is evil -- will test soon!
2020-06-15 22:39:10 @tomasino brilliant
2020-06-15 22:39:14 xq easy solution
2020-06-15 22:39:23 xq and a lot of client writers need this :D
2020-06-15 22:39:48 acdw thanks :)
2020-06-15 22:39:51 acdw has quit (Client exited)
2020-06-15 22:42:40 xq also: Kristall master has now primitive support for TOFU
2020-06-15 22:42:49 @tomasino huzzah
2020-06-15 22:42:49 xq and improved client certificate management
2020-06-15 22:43:04 xq yeah, it starts to get there :)
2020-06-15 22:43:47 xq disclaimer: highly experimental and not well tested :D
2020-06-15 22:44:12 makeworld I'm discussing TOFU with solderpunk on the ml right now
2020-06-15 22:44:19 makeworld So be aware that it is subject to change
2020-06-15 22:44:32 makeworld Both common methods of hashing cert and storing public key are bad
2020-06-15 22:44:44 makeworld But afaik storing the cert has less change of breaking
2020-06-15 22:45:02 xq yeah i'm aware of that
2020-06-15 22:45:16 xq imho storing the pubkey is the right way (as SSH does this as well)
2020-06-15 22:45:39 xq but we now have a test vector available to test implementations against :)
2020-06-15 22:45:55 xq which is the main point of tofu-tester D:
2020-06-15 22:48:08 xq but now: gn8!
2020-06-15 22:53:24 makeworld The problem is that a lot of setups will change priv key all the time
2020-06-15 22:53:33 makeworld See ya!
2020-06-15 22:55:09 makeworld Or if the key gets compromised
2020-06-15 23:00:15 makeworld Does anyone have an idea why most of the time the client torture test redirects fail on my client with EOF, but sometimes it works?
2020-06-15 23:00:50 makeworld Like as in when I click the redirect link, most of the time I get an error indicating that the header could not be read because of EOF
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2020-06-16 07:06:03 xq hey makeworld
2020-06-16 07:06:18 xq can you tell me what torture test you're using and which fails in particular?
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2020-06-16 08:06:27 `epochbot I just came up with a better idea for the infinite-data thing. instead of piping it directly in, I'll just fork off the process that writes the connection to the cached file.
2020-06-16 08:07:00 `epochbot so it'd be like: curl link > file & launch file
2020-06-16 08:07:22 `epochbot hrm... maybe.
2020-06-16 08:07:35 `epochbot I dunno
2020-06-16 08:07:54 xq hey `epochbot
2020-06-16 08:08:02 `epochbot the launcher would need to specifically check for EOF and then ignore that and keep going
2020-06-16 08:08:03 `epochbot hi
2020-06-16 08:08:25 `epochbot until I had some way of checking that the "curl"-like thing had finished
2020-06-16 08:09:04 `epochbot maybe launch <(curl link > file)
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2020-06-16 08:14:28 krixano Hello!
2020-06-16 08:14:43 xq hey krixano
2020-06-16 08:15:46 krixano I started, and mostly finished, a new thing for Gemini yesterday - A YouTube Interface for Gemini
2020-06-16 08:15:59 xq yeah, i've read that already, but didn't try
2020-06-16 08:16:51 krixano For anybody else who hasn't seen, it's here: gemini://pon.ix.tc:1965/cgi-bin/youtube.cgi
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2020-06-16 08:17:16 krixano You're the developer of kristall xq?
2020-06-16 08:17:37 xq yeah!
2020-06-16 08:18:19 krixano It's an *amazing* browser! I was actually going to make my own gemini browser, but now that I've seen yours, I'm not sure that I need to, lol
2020-06-16 08:19:14 xq thanks ♥
2020-06-16 08:19:46 xq and it keeps getting better!
2020-06-16 08:19:58 krixano I did get an error with the very latest commit, btw
2020-06-16 08:20:02 xq working on some internal stuff atm, restructuring and unifing protocol handlign
2020-06-16 08:20:12 xq can you pull and retry?
2020-06-16 08:20:16 krixano Something about QSsl::Dh not being a thing.
2020-06-16 08:20:24 xq oh
2020-06-16 08:20:38 ⚡ xq is upset about Qt Versions :D
2020-06-16 08:20:48 krixano I have qt 5.12
2020-06-16 08:21:04 krixano That's what's in the official Pop-Os (Ubuntu?) repos right now.
2020-06-16 08:21:06 xq damn. i just made a fix for Qt 5.13 :D
2020-06-16 08:21:24 xq yeah, building against bleeding edge isn't probably the best idea
2020-06-16 08:21:38 xq i'll fetch an older Qt version later and try developing against 5.13 or so
2020-06-16 08:23:26 xq crazy…
2020-06-16 08:23:36 xq when all the refactoring is done
2020-06-16 08:23:46 xq Kristall will (hopefully) also support HTTPS with client certificates :D
2020-06-16 08:24:24 krixano I wonder what people in geminispace think about the DNS over TLS stuff...
2020-06-16 08:24:36 xq you mean DNS via HTTPS?
2020-06-16 08:25:06 xq the thing mozilla proposed/uses?
2020-06-16 08:25:06 krixano There's DNS over TLS and then there's DNS over HTTPS. They're different I believe.
2020-06-16 08:25:12 xq ah
2020-06-16 08:25:19 krixano Chrome is getting support for it also, I'm pretty sure.
2020-06-16 08:25:27 xq hm
2020-06-16 08:25:30 krixano It's a thing mozilla proposed?
2020-06-16 08:25:35 xq not sure
2020-06-16 08:25:36 xq i'm not happy about that…
2020-06-16 08:26:02 krixano Why?
2020-06-16 08:26:11 xq it removes freemdom from the user
2020-06-16 08:26:18 krixano How?
2020-06-16 08:26:19 xq and i don't gain a huge benefit
2020-06-16 08:26:30 xq i'm running a pihole in my place which serves as an in-network ad-blocker
2020-06-16 08:26:45 xq resolving all ad-service-domains to a site that yield 404
2020-06-16 08:27:05 xq it works around anti-adblockers pretty well
2020-06-16 08:27:22 xq i also need ways to redirect domain names via /etc/hosts
2020-06-16 08:27:22 krixano I like it because my fishy ISP doesn't get to see everything I'm browsing, lol.
2020-06-16 08:27:38 xq so, it's a practical thing for me
2020-06-16 08:27:41 xq and now on the ISP thing
2020-06-16 08:27:49 xq they see what you're surfing on anyways ;)
2020-06-16 08:27:55 xq you know reverse-dns?
2020-06-16 08:29:01 krixano I thought DoH was supposed to prevent ISPs from seeing what domains you're visiting?
2020-06-16 08:29:16 xq it prevents them from seeing the conrecte domain you're visiting
2020-06-16 08:29:27 xq but it doesn't prevent them from seeing the IPs you visit
2020-06-16 08:29:38 xq and most servers have one or two domains serving
2020-06-16 08:29:41 xq so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
2020-06-16 08:29:42 krixano Right, yeah, that makes sense
2020-06-16 08:29:46 xq and:
2020-06-16 08:29:51 xq what provider are you using then?
2020-06-16 08:30:04 xq do you trust google/cloudflare more than your own ISP?
2020-06-16 08:30:23 krixano Yes, I *do* trust cloudflare more than CableOne
2020-06-16 08:30:29 xq ouch :D
2020-06-16 08:30:32 xq (for cableone)
2020-06-16 08:30:48 krixano Oh wait... they're called "SparkLight" now, lol
2020-06-16 08:30:59 xq how i see that: why should be provide google/cloudflare with *all* our surfing data
2020-06-16 08:31:11 xq they don't need to use trackers anymore
2020-06-16 08:31:18 krixano You can change what DoH provider you're using though
2020-06-16 08:31:24 krixano It's right in firefox settings
2020-06-16 08:31:33 xq how many providers are out there that are trustworthy?
2020-06-16 08:31:53 `epochbot I trust my ISP more than cloudflare
2020-06-16 08:32:16 xq if you don't trust your ISP, you don't have trust in your network connection at all
2020-06-16 08:33:28 krixano Sure, which is why I'm trying to keep an eye on mesh networking and related things...
2020-06-16 08:33:39 `epochbot if I'm going to try to hide stuff from my ISP I'll use tor
2020-06-16 08:33:41 krixano (like Cjdns)
2020-06-16 08:34:48 `epochbot oh boy, mesh networking and related things. :)
2020-06-16 08:35:43 krixano I used to be involved in the ZeroNet project, and that's where I was introduced to Cjdns, Tor, i2p, etc.
2020-06-16 08:36:11 `epochbot I only played with zeronet a little bit
2020-06-16 08:36:20 xq i have used i2p for a while
2020-06-16 08:36:29 xq it's really well done, and works quite good
2020-06-16 08:36:36 xq should set up some node again one time
2020-06-16 08:37:07 `epochbot what about dn42 and chaosvpn?
2020-06-16 08:37:11 krixano ZeroNet is *really* good and has lots of potential, but it's very web-focused, and while it doesn't have commercial stuff, it still has the grossness of the web-stack behind it's sites. It doesn't *have* to though... I created a plugin with someone else to support the gopher protocol in it, and it worked.
2020-06-16 08:37:41 krixano (it worked until ZeroNet moved over to Python 3, that is)
2020-06-16 08:38:29 krixano Also, there's certain parts of the community that were.... too much for me
2020-06-16 08:41:45 krixano The GUS search engine is *so* much better than Veronica2, lol
2020-06-16 08:48:06 thombles so good
2020-06-16 08:48:42 thombles I liked the part of cjdns about trying to create links that are not on the regular internet
2020-06-16 08:51:16 xq hmm
2020-06-16 08:51:37 xq what are two good error names for ssl failures
2020-06-16 08:51:58 xq one would be "untrusted host" which is for a host we've never encountered before and we don't trust (because reasons)
2020-06-16 08:52:20 xq and the other one is that we re-visit a server and it is now mistrusted
2020-06-16 08:52:26 xq (TOFU identitifcation changed)
2020-06-16 08:56:30 thombles "I am obligated to tell you that something has gone wrong but you're going to click the button below anyway"
2020-06-16 08:57:20 xq kek
2020-06-16 08:57:26 xq yeah, kinda
2020-06-16 08:58:48 thombles I hope somebody makes a super sassy client
2020-06-16 08:59:20 thombles Like every interaction is negotiating with glados
2020-06-16 08:59:58 tadzik "This certificate has expired. Just like everyone you've ever known"
2020-06-16 09:00:02 thombles lol
2020-06-16 09:00:26 tadzik this could be implemented as a custom locale :)
2020-06-16 09:01:10 `epochbot en_AI
2020-06-16 09:02:04 tadzik or AL, for Aperture Labs
2020-06-16 09:02:22 tadzik I want to get off Mr Johnson's wild ride
2020-06-16 09:03:18 styan "This site is now untrusted. Do you want this client to behave in a secure manner? [Y/n]"
2020-06-16 09:03:44 `epochbot :)
2020-06-16 09:04:39 thombles More seriously I think I would try to say it how it is. "A certificate has changed. If you think it's likely that your internet connection is under attack beware, but they might have just changed their settings"
2020-06-16 09:04:44 `epochbot heh. was thinking it'd be funny if the dialogs that some things used for "make sure the finger prints match out of band..."
2020-06-16 09:04:51 `epochbot would sometimes give fake fingerprints
2020-06-16 09:04:54 tadzik hahaahh
2020-06-16 09:04:57 `epochbot then give you hell
2020-06-16 09:05:09 tadzik "Got you. You can't be trusted. I'll make decisions from now on"
2020-06-16 09:05:13 `epochbot "WTF?!? THESE DON'T MATCH"
2020-06-16 09:05:27 `epochbot "DID YOU EVEN READ THEM?"
2020-06-16 09:05:51 thombles "HEX DOESN'T EVEN GO TO 'J'"
2020-06-16 09:05:59 `epochbot :)
2020-06-16 09:07:09 tadzik "Ha-ha, fool! Latin I is not the same as Persian <something>!"
2020-06-16 09:07:13 thombles I did make something for that actually
2020-06-16 09:07:21 thombles I thought it was stupid as heck that humans have to compare strings so I made this https://github.com/thombles/hashgood
2020-06-16 09:07:22 xq <thombles> I hope somebody makes a super sassy client
2020-06-16 09:07:41 xq "I told you that you should refresh your client certificate now and then. Now it's expired. You fool."
2020-06-16 09:07:59 krixano xq, this is the error I'm getting:
2020-06-16 09:07:59 `epochbot I guess it could generate 3 other fingerprints that are similar and make you pick which one it is.
2020-06-16 09:08:14 tadzik that's nice
2020-06-16 09:08:33 krixano ../src/trustedhostcollection.cpp: In member function ‘virtual QVariant TrustedHostCollection::data(const QModelIndex&, int) const’:
2020-06-16 09:08:34 krixano ../src/trustedhostcollection.cpp:70:24: error: ‘Dh’ is not a member of ‘QSsl’
2020-06-16 09:10:00 xq can you try again?
2020-06-16 09:11:10 thombles C++ is the master of sass
2020-06-16 09:12:00 thombles well, the compiler specifically
2020-06-16 09:12:48 xq heh
2020-06-16 09:12:52 xq true
2020-06-16 09:13:48 tadzik I thought sass is something from CSS, not C++ :P
2020-06-16 09:14:10 krixano It worked this time!
2020-06-16 09:14:13 krixano Thanks xq!
2020-06-16 09:14:43 xq \o/
2020-06-16 09:14:47 xq two bugs fixed already :)
2020-06-16 09:15:01 xq while having over 50 compiler errors on my end :D
2020-06-16 09:16:35 xq new version is gonna be good :)
2020-06-16 09:16:43 xq (0.3)
2020-06-16 09:16:50 xq the error page will be improved a lot
2020-06-16 09:19:10 xq ah well, pretty much everything will improve
2020-06-16 09:21:05 dkibi does anyone escape using a ZERO WIDTH SPACE?
2020-06-16 09:23:59 tadzik I break emojis with it on platforms that force them
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2020-06-16 09:27:14 xq dkibi: great idea actually :D
2020-06-16 09:28:39 dkibi someone asked on the mailinglist how people escape, and imho that would be a semantically appropiate way to do it. it's hard to do by hand though, but I doupt that escaping without having a preformated block is common in hand authored content
2020-06-16 09:33:37 kensanata dkibi: I don't like doing it because it confuses people who copy & paste.
2020-06-16 09:33:49 kensanata But yeah, I've used zero width spaces in the past... and I'm sorry.
2020-06-16 09:34:07 dkibi oh right
2020-06-16 09:34:12 dkibi good point
2020-06-16 09:35:38 dkibi one of the really useful features of word was that little button to show all the invisible characters, I want that for my text editor
2020-06-16 09:36:06 dkibi (when editing gmi texts I often accidentally break lines)
2020-06-16 09:37:47 ⚡ thombles adds quote support
2020-06-16 09:39:19 dkibi xD
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2020-06-16 13:13:13 ~tiwesdaeg xq: since I love compiling kristall on multiple OS's I always find new issues
2020-06-16 13:13:27 ~tiwesdaeg debian buster: https://ttm.sh/QnN.txt
2020-06-16 13:14:33 @tomasino just pulled on Ubuntu 18.04 and ran make and got: https://ttm.sh/QnH.txt
2020-06-16 13:15:01 ~tiwesdaeg tomasino: I fixed that
2020-06-16 13:15:35 ~tiwesdaeg llibqt5svg5 and libqt5svg5-dev
2020-06-16 13:15:51 ~tiwesdaeg minus that first l
2020-06-16 13:16:12 ~tiwesdaeg I just installed both and it made it past
2020-06-16 13:17:08 @tomasino thanks
2020-06-16 13:17:27 ~tiwesdaeg tomasino: what version do you get when when you type 'g++ --version'?
2020-06-16 13:17:40 @tomasino g++ (Ubuntu 7.5.0-3ubuntu1~18.04) 7.5.0
2020-06-16 13:17:57 ~tiwesdaeg ok, so I have a newer version
2020-06-16 13:18:10 ~tiwesdaeg let me know if you get an error like I did
2020-06-16 13:18:12 @tomasino new errors! https://ttm.sh/Qng.txt
2020-06-16 13:18:32 @tomasino yep
2020-06-16 13:18:35 @tomasino looks like the same thing
2020-06-16 13:18:37 ~tiwesdaeg very similar to mine
2020-06-16 13:18:47 @tomasino i only uploaded 2>
2020-06-16 13:19:18 ~tiwesdaeg I'm not at home to try this out on manjaro
2020-06-16 13:19:33 ~tiwesdaeg which is the most like xq's build environment
2020-06-16 13:19:39 @tomasino i can do make 2>&1 | less, but not make 2>&1 | pb
2020-06-16 13:19:40 @tomasino not sure why
2020-06-16 13:20:07 @tomasino i enjoy doing this for xq. happy to help make the build safer
2020-06-16 13:20:09 ~tiwesdaeg I don't even know what that is ;P
2020-06-16 13:20:32 ~tiwesdaeg the 2>&1 part
2020-06-16 13:20:44 @tomasino redirects standard error back into stdout
2020-06-16 13:20:51 @tomasino so you can pipe both to the next command
2020-06-16 13:20:54 @tomasino and not just the stdout
2020-06-16 13:21:47 ~tiwesdaeg pretty neat
2020-06-16 13:22:36 @tomasino i can just do $ make &> error.txt && pb error.txt
2020-06-16 13:22:40 @tomasino less awesome, but works
2020-06-16 13:22:54 @tomasino hrm..
2020-06-16 13:22:57 ⚡ tomasino tries something
2020-06-16 13:23:11 @tomasino nope
2020-06-16 13:23:57 @tomasino https://ttm.sh/Qna.txt
2020-06-16 13:24:04 @tomasino make &> error.txt; pb error.txt
2020-06-16 13:24:06 @tomasino not &&
2020-06-16 13:28:50 xq tiwesdaeg: build env is arch linux, so yes, manjaro
2020-06-16 13:29:10 xq the buster error message is related to an outdated G++ that doesn't support C++17
2020-06-16 13:29:21 xq so it looks like i have to work around those features :(
2020-06-16 13:29:39 ~tiwesdaeg Also Ubuntu LTS
2020-06-16 13:29:57 ~tiwesdaeg Which has an even older version
2020-06-16 13:30:06 xq which LTS version?
2020-06-16 13:30:12 ~tiwesdaeg 18.04
2020-06-16 13:30:15 @tomasino 18.04 here
2020-06-16 13:30:28 @tomasino i'm waiting for canonical to roll out the 20.04 update on this machine
2020-06-16 13:30:32 @tomasino next month, i believe
2020-06-16 13:31:27 xq hm, i have the 20.04 here, but it built there (some time ago)
2020-06-16 13:32:16 ▬▬▶ kensanata has joined #gemini
2020-06-16 13:35:22 ~tiwesdaeg what version of g++ is needed?
2020-06-16 13:35:45 ~tiwesdaeg buster is using 8.3.0
2020-06-16 13:37:27 xq ah
2020-06-16 13:37:29 xq libstdc++ 7.1
2020-06-16 13:38:30 ~tiwesdaeg I generally don't like to run testing as it is often missing a bunch of packages
2020-06-16 13:38:50 ~tiwesdaeg and sid just needs so much updating, it feels like arch ;P
2020-06-16 13:38:55 xq is libstdc++ 7.1 in debian testing?!
2020-06-16 13:39:48 ~tiwesdaeg 10.1.0-3
2020-06-16 13:40:06 xq hm
2020-06-16 13:40:09 xq that should work, then
2020-06-16 13:40:41 ~tiwesdaeg it's not in buster
2020-06-16 13:41:26 xq damn
2020-06-16 13:41:26 ⚡ tiwesdaeg upgrades slowly to testing
2020-06-16 13:41:40 xq so no C++17 is probably a good decision
2020-06-16 13:42:43 ~tiwesdaeg https://packages.debian.org/buster/libstdc++-8-dev
2020-06-16 13:42:49 ~tiwesdaeg I found that
2020-06-16 13:43:16 xq if it works with that, we can add this as a dependency
2020-06-16 13:43:18 ~tiwesdaeg should that cover it?
2020-06-16 13:43:22 xq yeah
2020-06-16 13:43:26 xq i'm also thinking about providing an AppImage file
2020-06-16 13:43:30 ~tiwesdaeg I'll install and see what happening
2020-06-16 13:43:38 xq would make installation for non-codes way easier
2020-06-16 13:43:57 ~tiwesdaeg already installed
2020-06-16 13:44:46 xq dang
2020-06-16 13:46:47 ~tiwesdaeg you may end up with more users who run debian stable
2020-06-16 13:47:17 xq yeah
2020-06-16 13:47:35 xq i want to make Kristall a nice display of "how to properly do cross-platform" development
2020-06-16 13:49:41 ~tiwesdaeg ok, sources.list updated, now the long process of upgrading
2020-06-16 13:49:53 ~tiwesdaeg I'm on a 1.5kbit line here
2020-06-16 13:50:08 xq noooo :D
2020-06-16 13:50:11 xq don't do that for me :D
2020-06-16 13:50:45 ~tiwesdaeg haha, I mess with this computer all the time
2020-06-16 13:50:51 ~tiwesdaeg it was just running openbsd last week
2020-06-16 13:50:56 xq oh :D
2020-06-16 13:51:20 ~tiwesdaeg I was mad at the openbsd packaging system
2020-06-16 13:51:36 xq every packaging system is kinda bad :D
2020-06-16 13:52:36 ~tiwesdaeg I feel like openbsd just expects you to resolve your own issues
2020-06-16 13:53:06 ~tiwesdaeg netbsd had some weird issues with the graphics card
2020-06-16 13:53:23 ~tiwesdaeg and so I'm back with the old default
2020-06-16 14:03:52 ~tiwesdaeg woo 18% complete
2020-06-16 14:06:02 wgreenhouse tiwesdaeg: ooc, is .pink on bare metal, or a VPS?
2020-06-16 14:06:18 ~tiwesdaeg VPS
2020-06-16 14:06:29 ⚡ wgreenhouse nods
2020-06-16 14:06:48 ~tiwesdaeg it's hosted on ben's big honking box
2020-06-16 14:07:39 @ben yeah it's a vm on my dedi
2020-06-16 14:15:53 xq ben: are you the ben that wrote me an email? :D
2020-06-16 14:16:02 @ben about?
2020-06-16 14:16:06 @ben uh i don't think so
2020-06-16 14:16:08 xq Kristall
2020-06-16 14:16:08 xq :D
2020-06-16 14:17:04 @ben if i did i don't recall sending anything lol
2020-06-16 14:17:10 @ben was it from ben@tilde.team ?
2020-06-16 14:19:21 xq no, other mail :D
2020-06-16 14:19:30 xq was just curious
2020-06-16 14:21:52 @ben there are plenty of bens out there :)
2020-06-16 14:23:25 xq yeah true
2020-06-16 14:23:39 xq but the numbers of bens involved in gemini are less plenty :D
2020-06-16 14:23:59 @ben smaller venn diagramm
2020-06-16 14:27:11 ▬▬▶ solderpunk has joined #gemini
2020-06-16 14:27:15 @tomasino ben diagram
2020-06-16 14:27:24 @ben hehe
2020-06-16 14:28:10 @tomasino I was on a call on Friday that had 5 James'!
2020-06-16 14:28:20 xq good morning solderpunk
2020-06-16 14:31:00 solderpunk Hello everybody.
2020-06-16 14:31:12 @ben woah nice tomasino
2020-06-16 14:31:14 @ben james party
2020-06-16 14:31:17 solderpunk Good news! I have solved all problems with Gemini applications simultaneously and the future will be glorious :p
2020-06-16 14:31:18 @ben hola!
2020-06-16 14:31:26 @tomasino Yaaaay!
2020-06-16 14:31:32 @ben down with problems!
2020-06-16 14:31:39 @tomasino Problems can suck it
2020-06-16 14:31:39 solderpunk Currently writing up a massive post to Corned Beef Sandwiches which I will post later tonight.
2020-06-16 14:31:51 solderpunk Your gemini streaming idea features heavily, Tomasino!
2020-06-16 14:32:00 @tomasino Oooh, yay me!
2020-06-16 14:32:10 solderpunk And it also tries to deal with the CSRF stuff currently happening on the mailing list!
2020-06-16 14:33:09 solderpunk And it even helps people write smaller, simpler clients, so people who just want to write a tool to read text don't get crushed under the weight of fiddly application stuff.
2020-06-16 14:34:02 xq looking forward to reading it
2020-06-16 14:34:13 solderpunk I really hope it is well received.
2020-06-16 14:34:18 solderpunk But we'll see
2020-06-16 14:34:27 xq "let's remove TLS" :D
2020-06-16 14:34:33 companion_cube yessss
2020-06-16 14:34:52 companion_cube "let's build on top of git"
2020-06-16 14:34:56 solderpunk lol
2020-06-16 14:35:02 ⚡ ben receive-pack
2020-06-16 14:35:09 companion_cube fact: content addressed is simpler ;)
2020-06-16 14:35:23 companion_cube (ok ok I might be exagerating)
2020-06-16 14:35:36 xq "don't use URLs, use the shasum of the resource you want to receive"
2020-06-16 14:35:37 xq :D
2020-06-16 14:35:52 companion_cube exactly
2020-06-16 14:36:00 xq ohno :
2020-06-16 14:36:15 companion_cube well you could have urls that redirect to actual blobs
2020-06-16 14:36:23 companion_cube versioning for free!
2020-06-16 14:36:23 xq data://…
2020-06-16 14:36:23 xq :D
2020-06-16 14:36:37 companion_cube git is simple because of that
2020-06-16 14:36:41 companion_cube :)
2020-06-16 14:37:17 xq true
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2020-06-16 14:38:10 dkibi the ham radio people will be happy about removing TLS
2020-06-16 14:39:32 @tomasino but what about blockchain! *farting noises*
2020-06-16 14:40:34 @tomasino https://git-man-page-generator.lokaltog.net/
2020-06-16 14:40:36 companion_cube git is good blockchain! :p
2020-06-16 14:49:41 kensanata If you make such changes, you should design your own protocol. May I suggest Gemaxi instead of Gemini.
2020-06-16 14:50:16 ~tiwesdaeg let's call it scorpio
2020-06-16 14:50:23 dkibi so there are a ton of esoteric proramming languages? are there esotereic protocols?
2020-06-16 14:50:25 ~tiwesdaeg scorpio:// looks sexy
2020-06-16 14:51:38 dkibi every request must contain a short poem
2020-06-16 14:51:43 dkibi the response must contain a paradox
2020-06-16 14:52:02 kensanata I guess HTTP/1.1 would qualify.
2020-06-16 14:52:16 companion_cube kensanata: clearly it'd be a different thing :)
2020-06-16 14:52:37 solderpunk kensanata: I literally realised today or yesterday, I forget, for the *very first time* that "Gemini" has "mini" in it.
2020-06-16 14:53:17 kensanata The poetry might be better, with mandatory quality levels as assigned by the Shakesbear Academy. 🐻🐻
2020-06-16 14:53:32 kensanata solderpunk: Hah!
2020-06-16 14:54:05 kensanata solderpunk: Actally, if you squint really hard, you'll see that there is a tiny wiki inside trying to get out, too!
2020-06-16 14:54:27 kensanata I guess you have to believe it.
2020-06-16 14:54:43 solderpunk Haha!
2020-06-16 14:55:04 ⚡ kensanata goes off and creates a #titan channel.
2020-06-16 14:56:42 kensanata What I've been thinking... If upload is a separate Titan protocol, and the Gemini protocol is fixed, then we can basically use our own error codes and conveniently place them into the Gemini ranges, for extra development joy.
2020-06-16 14:57:08 kensanata I did laugh out loud when I saw the mail about YouTube being in Gemini.
2020-06-16 14:57:17 kensanata IS THERE NOTHING SACRED ANYMORE!?
2020-06-16 14:57:38 kensanata Including YouTube comments, no less.
2020-06-16 14:57:49 solderpunk I have to admit, I absolutely do not see the appeal of being able to read YouTube comments in Gemini.
2020-06-16 14:58:00 kensanata Or anywhere!
2020-06-16 14:58:01 companion_cube "because why not"
2020-06-16 14:58:06 solderpunk Ha, indeed!
2020-06-16 14:58:13 solderpunk Like, of *all* the things to import from the web...
2020-06-16 14:58:30 dkibi I found it frustrating to link to the web all the time I wanted to add references to my little log yesterday, so the more mirrors the better ^^
2020-06-16 14:58:31 companion_cube quick, someone do facebook!
2020-06-16 14:58:49 solderpunk Hey, if people want it and can make use of it, more power to them.
2020-06-16 14:59:46 dkibi related: I really like to have paragraph [relevant links] paragraph [relevant links] etc.
2020-06-16 14:59:47 kensanata Yeah. You can have YouTube, Facebook and Instagram, BUT THOU SHALT NOT UPLOAD!
2020-06-16 15:00:22 kensanata dkibi: That reminds me of purple numbers, and it's implementation in some wikis. Lovely idea that never took off.
2020-06-16 15:01:28 kensanata Gah, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purple_Numbers redirects to the Doug Engelbart page which doesn't mention them.
2020-06-16 15:02:05 xq dkibi: you can always serve text/x-markdown
2020-06-16 15:02:43 kensanata I see that Eugene put up his purple wiki code: https://github.com/eekim/purplewiki -- "PurpleWiki is a WikiWikiWeb that adds purple numbers to paragraphs, headers, lists, and other fine-grained elements on a Wiki page. These numbers can be used to create links to these specific elements."
2020-06-16 15:02:58 kensanata xq: How does that help?
2020-06-16 15:03:05 dkibi xq: no I mean, I like doing this, which works quite well with text/gemini, over inline link
2020-06-16 15:03:40 xq kensanata: markdown allows more features than text/gemini
2020-06-16 15:03:43 kensanata Hm, you have a client that implements this?
2020-06-16 15:03:48 xq *grins*
2020-06-16 15:04:03 companion_cube what *is* a purple number?!
2020-06-16 15:04:40 xq kensanata: i have another "torture test" in the making: gemini://random-projects.net/torture/
2020-06-16 15:04:50 kensanata xq: Of course, but I thought dkibi was talking about the ability to link to textual passages inside documents, like we do in paper when we refer to paragaphs and articles in law codes, for example. That, to me, is a feature that requires a client that can follow such links.
2020-06-16 15:05:03 xq ah
2020-06-16 15:05:08 xq then i misunderstood
2020-06-16 15:06:12 kensanata companion_cube: Back then, it looked like faint purple numbers at the end of every paragraph, providing a permalink, so if you wanted, you could link to every single block level element (not words but list items, paragraphs, headers) and the like. Like many content management systems these days make headings linkable because they have a working TOC at the top of the page.
2020-06-16 15:06:37 kensanata companion_cube: The wiki would simply create these links dynamically.
2020-06-16 15:06:47 companion_cube hmmm, so like path components inside a page itself?
2020-06-16 15:06:55 kensanata companion_cube: Yeah.
2020-06-16 15:07:04 dkibi good that the specs are frozen otherwise we could define # to link to a line xD
2020-06-16 15:07:20 kensanata 🙈
2020-06-16 15:07:45 xq just noticed again how elegant emojis are actually implemented inside unicode
2020-06-16 15:08:10 lickthecat lol
2020-06-16 15:08:11 xq use "golfer" + "dark skin modifier" + "female symbol" => "dark-skinned female golfer" emoji appears
2020-06-16 15:08:19 xq yeah, it's kind just ligatures
2020-06-16 15:08:21 xq ^^
2020-06-16 15:08:31 xq where two "characters" merge into a single thing
2020-06-16 15:08:51 companion_cube same for é made from ' and e
2020-06-16 15:09:10 xq yeah
2020-06-16 15:15:50 @tomasino i had suggested #<line-nr> on the ML, but it didn't get any love. People like the python solution better
2020-06-16 15:16:30 dkibi what's the python solution?
2020-06-16 15:17:15 companion_cube hmm, idempotence doens't mean edition is impossible
2020-06-16 15:17:23 companion_cube just that edition is a idempotent patch
2020-06-16 15:18:04 @tomasino lowercase the characters in the line and replace non ascii chars with -, if i recall
2020-06-16 15:19:00 xq tomasino: yeah, that's more robust ;)
2020-06-16 15:19:47 companion_cube making a slug?
2020-06-16 15:22:02 acdw I like the slug approach, since it allows for editing of content -- otherwise you'd have a ton of off-by-one errors when adding or removing lines (basically any editing)
2020-06-16 15:23:02 xq yep
2020-06-16 15:32:25 ~tiwesdaeg xq: upgraded still having the same issue
2020-06-16 15:32:29 ~tiwesdaeg g++ (Debian 9.3.0-13) 9.3.0
2020-06-16 15:32:33 xq hm
2020-06-16 15:32:39 xq looks like i have to get more HW
2020-06-16 15:32:44 xq to test more
2020-06-16 15:32:51 ~tiwesdaeg or just a VM
2020-06-16 15:33:18 @ben the date picker for the cert tool was being wonky for me
2020-06-16 15:33:23 @ben i wasn't able to create a cert
2020-06-16 15:33:29 @ben re: kristall
2020-06-16 15:33:30 @tomasino yeah, it's a slug, but it takes more institutional knowledge of how to construct than a line number
2020-06-16 15:33:36 @tomasino that's why i didn't favor it
2020-06-16 15:34:38 acdw absolutely right on the more complicated front, but I think it's a necessary complication
2020-06-16 15:35:26 xq <tiwesdaeg> or just a VM
2020-06-16 15:35:30 xq remaining disk space: 6GB
2020-06-16 15:35:47 xq ben: can you make a screenshot or video?
2020-06-16 15:35:47 ~tiwesdaeg a really small VM
2020-06-16 15:35:57 acdw could be `sed -e 's/[^A-Za-z0-9_]/-/g' -e 's/--+/-/g'`
2020-06-16 15:36:01 @ben xq: yeah sure thign
2020-06-16 15:36:06 xq <3
2020-06-16 15:36:27 acdw could be `sed -e 's/[^A-Za-z0-9_]/-/g' -e 's/--+/-/g' | tr [A-Z] [a-z]` actually
2020-06-16 15:37:46 ▬▬▶ rb100 has joined #gemini
2020-06-16 15:37:48 @ben what is the group parameter
2020-06-16 15:38:00 krixano I'm gonna point out that YouTube Comments aren't actually working on the gemini interface yet, mostly because they aren't very important. I don't care about youtube comments, but some people might, idk
2020-06-16 15:38:34 @tomasino it would be awesome if you could find a service that generates random compliments and just pull in a group of them to the bottom of every video
2020-06-16 15:38:39 @ben ah this is likely to be my font choice
2020-06-16 15:38:41 @ben https://ttm.sh/QnO.png
2020-06-16 15:39:05 xq ben: "Group" is a certificate group to your liking
2020-06-16 15:39:10 @ben i didn't realize the group was required
2020-06-16 15:39:11 xq like "Games" or "Accounts"
2020-06-16 15:39:18 @ben i was able to create it
2020-06-16 15:39:46 @ben looks like in this case the picker just wasn't scaling to the width required by my font
2020-06-16 15:39:59 xq ah
2020-06-16 15:40:08 krixano However, what I do think is important is the access to all the videos on YouTube, from educational videos, programming videos, talks, news, etc. And to have an interface that just gets you directly to the video without all the annoyingness is cool! Also, you don't need a web browser just to search YouTube anymore, so this helps with terminal-only users.
2020-06-16 15:40:31 @tomasino complements as a service: https://complimentr.com/
2020-06-16 15:41:45 @ben xq: the rest of the fields scale to the width of the window when you resize, but the date picker doesn't - must be some default behavior for that ui control
2020-06-16 15:41:49 krixano YouTube is a **very** different thing from Instagram and Facebook. YouTube actually has useful content on it, lmao
2020-06-16 15:42:22 companion_cube if you just ignore the comments
2020-06-16 15:42:30 companion_cube to keep your sanity
2020-06-16 15:42:41 krixano The plan was the put comments on a separate page so they're easier to ignore
2020-06-16 15:43:02 krixano I could just not do comments though, I suppose...
2020-06-16 15:43:11 @ben probably just don't
2020-06-16 15:43:21 @ben don't make it easy to view that garbage
2020-06-16 15:44:35 krixano The two main things I want to do next is a direct download link instead of the YT video link, and using the certificate stuff for storing subs (separate from YT account).
2020-06-16 15:44:53 makeworld xq: Is that a cert UX?
2020-06-16 15:45:03 makeworld The pic Ben sent I mean
2020-06-16 15:45:04 makeworld Impressive
2020-06-16 15:45:05 xq makeworld: yeah
2020-06-16 15:45:11 @ben you could likely manage the subscriptions via rss feeds
2020-06-16 15:45:15 xq i wanted to do some videos about Kristall usage
2020-06-16 15:45:15 makeworld Woah nice
2020-06-16 15:45:21 @ben i think yt still provides rss feeds
2020-06-16 15:45:23 makeworld That'd be cool to have
2020-06-16 15:45:30 @ben i don't remember how to record a screencast lol
2020-06-16 15:45:31 xq <ben> i think yt still provides rss feeds
2020-06-16 15:45:32 xq it does
2020-06-16 15:45:39 xq there's a nice tool called "peek"
2020-06-16 15:45:41 makeworld I'm still working on other things in my client but personally I want to wait for the spec to finalize that sort of
2020-06-16 15:45:44 @ben i wonder how long until google kills that lol
2020-06-16 15:45:45 xq or OBS for the larger stuff
2020-06-16 15:45:45 ⚡ lickthecat peeks at xq
2020-06-16 15:45:46 makeworld It seems a bit unsure right now
2020-06-16 15:46:00 ⚡ xq feels peeked by lickthecat
2020-06-16 15:46:14 xq makeworld: yeah, nontheless it's good to test that stuff out
2020-06-16 15:46:22 makeworld Yeah for sure
2020-06-16 15:48:09 krixano I mean... I explicitly say in my email that comments aren't done, so I don't honestly know where people got the idea that it "includes YouTube comments, no less"
2020-06-16 15:48:12 xq i really like the UX of Kristall Certificate flow
2020-06-16 15:48:26 xq there's still problems in there (like: you should be asked to keep the certificate enabled when switching hosts)
2020-06-16 15:48:35 xq but afar from that, it's really convenient
2020-06-16 15:48:46 xq especially transient certificates are "single-click" solution
2020-06-16 15:49:36 ~tiwesdaeg xq: I added -std=c++17 to cxxflags and it got past there
2020-06-16 15:49:51 ~tiwesdaeg now I'm working on an openssl error
2020-06-16 15:49:55 xq oh, maybe your qt-version doesn't do this *facepalm*
2020-06-16 15:50:38 krixano YT was the first thing I made an interface for because it was like 25% done from when I was doing it for Gopher, lol
2020-06-16 15:51:03 ~tiwesdaeg probably the issue with ubuntu as well
2020-06-16 15:51:05 krixano It isn't even the first thing I imported from the web, which was Sefaria for Gopher.
2020-06-16 15:51:44 ~tiwesdaeg needed libssl-dev
2020-06-16 15:51:50 @tomasino i still think a compliments section instead of the comments section would be awesome
2020-06-16 15:51:51 @tomasino https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKEJEFcV4Hw
2020-06-16 15:52:14 xq <tiwesdaeg> needed libssl-dev
2020-06-16 15:52:20 xq oh yeah, there's an issue to add that to the README
2020-06-16 15:52:23 xq should do that soon
2020-06-16 15:53:26 ~tiwesdaeg got it to compile
2020-06-16 15:54:03 ~tiwesdaeg so yeah, I don't much about qt5 and c++, but stack exchange came to the rescue again
2020-06-16 15:54:11 krixano Yeah, that's a cool idea. I'll probably do that instead. Thanks tomasino! You make youtube videos, right? So clearly not everything is bad on YT :)
2020-06-16 15:54:50 @tomasino hahaha
2020-06-16 15:55:00 @tomasino yep, not everything is terrible, but the comments certainly are
2020-06-16 15:55:25 krixano Also: gemini://pon.ix.tc/cgi-bin/youtube.cgi?video&sKEJEFcV4Hw
2020-06-16 15:56:00 krixano Well, there can rarely be some useful comments, like lyrics on music videos for example.
2020-06-16 15:56:16 @tomasino :D!
2020-06-16 15:56:47 @tomasino here's a good youtube link for a demo:
2020-06-16 15:56:52 ~tiwesdaeg tomasino: in kristall/build/Makefile
2020-06-16 15:57:02 @tomasino https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoEI6VzybDk
2020-06-16 15:57:14 ~tiwesdaeg add -std=c++17 to the end of CXXFLAGS
2020-06-16 15:57:28 makeworld I get a CGI error on Youtube comments
2020-06-16 15:57:35 krixano I really need to get the direct download link thing working. Then it'd basically be finished. Oh, I also wanted to do captions download
2020-06-16 15:57:38 ~tiwesdaeg see if it builds for you then
2020-06-16 15:57:39 krixano Because it isn't done yet
2020-06-16 15:57:44 krixano (the comments)
2020-06-16 15:57:56 makeworld Oh ok
2020-06-16 15:58:11 krixano And it won't be done, because I've changed my mind. I'm going to do what tomasino suggested :)
2020-06-16 15:58:42 @tomasino muahahahaha!!!!
2020-06-16 15:58:47 @tomasino i mean, great decision!
2020-06-16 15:59:10 krixano Also, it might be less work for me anyways, lol
2020-06-16 16:00:14 makeworld Wait what is the idea?
2020-06-16 16:00:44 krixano My other ideas for more web-to-gemini interfaces were Sefaria (Jewish scriptures & commentaries), GitHub, GitLab, Bitbucket, Peertube
2020-06-16 16:01:42 @tomasino love it
2020-06-16 16:01:45 krixano I also wanted to ask a few people I know online for permission to create a geminispace (is that what it's being called... the equivalent to a site or gopherhole?) for HandmadeNetwork and Odin
2020-06-16 16:02:17 acdw I've been using *capsule* but it's not really nailed down
2020-06-16 16:02:18 ~tiwesdaeg capsule
2020-06-16 16:02:27 ~tiwesdaeg I think it is at this point
2020-06-16 16:02:33 @tomasino I know blog->phlog->gemlog
2020-06-16 16:02:41 @tomasino i was using gemspace. I'll start using capsule
2020-06-16 16:03:09 krixano I didn't use gemlog because that's log-related. HMN and Odin are less of a log and more of just websites.
2020-06-16 16:04:05 krixano makeworld the idea was to autogenerate random nice comments at the bottom of each video
2020-06-16 16:04:15 makeworld Oh I see haha
2020-06-16 16:04:17 @tomasino there, my capsule is update to refer to it as a capsule
2020-06-16 16:04:40 acdw Someone was trying to make 'nilog' (as in, gemi NI log) a thing
2020-06-16 16:05:04 acdw fun fact: the astronauts on the Gemini mission pronounced it jemiknee
2020-06-16 16:05:08 paper the knights who say ni?
2020-06-16 16:05:15 acdw lol I mean yes
2020-06-16 16:05:19 paper nice xD
2020-06-16 16:05:35 krixano If we're following the same lenition that happened with phlog (goPHer LOG), then it could be Nlog :D
2020-06-16 16:05:38 acdw I almost called my browser "cricket" because of that
2020-06-16 16:05:47 acdw menlog
2020-06-16 16:05:55 acdw melog
2020-06-16 16:05:57 krixano (because the syllabic "r" sound after ph was removed)
2020-06-16 16:06:10 acdw mog
2020-06-16 16:06:25 acdw as far as -log is concerned, I like glog
2020-06-16 16:06:36 acdw easiest to pronounce imo
2020-06-16 16:06:37 @tomasino glog is still used on gopher by some people
2020-06-16 16:06:41 acdw ahh
2020-06-16 16:06:49 acdw omg escape pod
2020-06-16 16:06:51 acdw or pod
2020-06-16 16:06:54 acdw no.. podcast
2020-06-16 16:06:55 @tomasino solderpunk did a poll on the gemlog thing a while back
2020-06-16 16:06:55 acdw :/
2020-06-16 16:07:11 @tomasino hehe
2020-06-16 16:07:13 @tomasino podcast!
2020-06-16 16:07:15 @tomasino perfect
2020-06-16 16:07:17 krixano I kinda like Nlog, but that's because I like weird names, lol. But Gemlog is good too imo
2020-06-16 16:07:29 krixano Ooh... do we have any podcast interface for Gemini yet?
2020-06-16 16:07:30 acdw oh nice! I hope it's understood I'm totally joking with these names> I really don't care what it's called
2020-06-16 16:07:41 @tomasino minilog
2020-06-16 16:07:49 acdw oh that'd be real nice krixano . but it'd just be an atom feed right?
2020-06-16 16:07:53 acdw fed over gemini
2020-06-16 16:08:09 krixano I don't really like rss/atom feeds, tbh, lol
2020-06-16 16:08:24 makeworld They're pretty simple I think
2020-06-16 16:08:36 krixano You can usually get more information by plugging directly into an api
2020-06-16 16:08:39 @tomasino can be, if you're scripting stuff
2020-06-16 16:08:41 makeworld It's just XML, but with links, times and excerpts of posts
2020-06-16 16:09:00 acdw launchlog? CHLOG? nchlog?
2020-06-16 16:09:02 companion_cube rss is so useful who cares if it's ugly xml?
2020-06-16 16:09:03 @tomasino i'm running my capsule 100% by hand in vim without any scriptitudes
2020-06-16 16:09:04 makeworld The posts/entries could be videos, blog posts, podcasts, etc
2020-06-16 16:09:32 makeworld Real Geminauts just respond to all requests by hand
2020-06-16 16:09:41 makeworld Write status codes in real time
2020-06-16 16:09:51 acdw Also podcasts are just RSS feeds with audio attachments
2020-06-16 16:09:57 krixano Geminauts?
2020-06-16 16:09:58 @tomasino i just sit on a port listener and respond to requests manually in real time
2020-06-16 16:10:03 acdw I'm writing a telephone-operated gemini client
2020-06-16 16:10:06 lickthecat lol tomasino
2020-06-16 16:10:16 krixano I thought you had to link to the audio file? You can attach binary files to rss?
2020-06-16 16:10:19 makeworld krixano: Yes
2020-06-16 16:10:23 companion_cube feeling geminaughty tonight
2020-06-16 16:10:33 makeworld Shoot idk about that question krixano
2020-06-16 16:10:34 acdw ^_-
2020-06-16 16:10:43 makeworld I meant yes to Geminauts
2020-06-16 16:10:44 @tomasino podcasts have the audio as links
2020-06-16 16:10:51 krixano Right.
2020-06-16 16:11:28 krixano And I guess you can dynamically generate rss feeds, can you...
2020-06-16 16:11:33 krixano * can't
2020-06-16 16:11:52 krixano Also, what's the distinction between rss and atom?
2020-06-16 16:11:52 makeworld Yeah, no one really writes them by hand
2020-06-16 16:12:00 acdw mission log!!!
2020-06-16 16:12:06 makeworld Atom is a similar but different format created to be better lol
2020-06-16 16:12:11 companion_cube I think atom is an update of rss
2020-06-16 16:12:14 companion_cube oh well
2020-06-16 16:12:16 krixano I mean like, I can dynamically generate a feed based on your stored subs, for example, and everyone's would be different
2020-06-16 16:12:27 companion_cube blog generators produce them and it works
2020-06-16 16:12:28 acdw You *can* write them by hand; it's just kind of a pain, like writing HTML by hand
2020-06-16 16:13:15 acdw https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atom_(Web_standard)#Example_of_an_Atom_1.0_feed
2020-06-16 16:13:20 acdw ^ is the basic format
2020-06-16 16:13:36 @tomasino in the very early 2000s my blog was an RSS feed with an XSLT layer on top to render it in internet explorer
2020-06-16 16:13:45 @tomasino i wrote directly in the XML
2020-06-16 16:13:58 acdw https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4287 << the good stuff
2020-06-16 16:13:59 krixano Do any gemini clients support saving atom/rss feeds yet?
2020-06-16 16:14:12 @tomasino subscribing, you mean?
2020-06-16 16:14:18 krixano Yeah, subscribing
2020-06-16 16:14:23 @tomasino i don't think so
2020-06-16 16:14:27 @tomasino but there's capcom
2020-06-16 16:14:35 @tomasino you can run it yourself and have a private feed
2020-06-16 16:14:43 @tomasino you could put it behind a client-cert auth area too
2020-06-16 16:14:48 krixano But a client should honestly do this, imo
2020-06-16 16:14:56 @tomasino oh yes, it would be a lovely feature
2020-06-16 16:15:16 krixano I might be making a new client, I'm not sure yet.
2020-06-16 16:15:28 @tomasino cosmic has a RSS feed if you want to use that for testing
2020-06-16 16:15:32 @tomasino many others have ATOM
2020-06-16 16:15:40 @tomasino Atom?
2020-06-16 16:15:42 @tomasino not all caps
2020-06-16 16:15:44 @tomasino whatever it is
2020-06-16 16:15:52 krixano The only thing I would not be looking forward to is parsing xml, lol
2020-06-16 16:16:01 @tomasino yep
2020-06-16 16:16:20 makeworld There's likely already a library for parsing the feed specifically
2020-06-16 16:16:30 makeworld But yeah this would be a great feature for a client, wow
2020-06-16 16:16:36 acdw I *know* python has an atom parser
2020-06-16 16:16:42 makeworld Adding it to my roadmap ;)
2020-06-16 16:16:48 companion_cube all languages have at least a xml parser anyway
2020-06-16 16:16:57 krixano Also, it's technically possible to stream videos from gemini, right?
2020-06-16 16:17:01 krixano (or audio)
2020-06-16 16:17:08 companion_cube if you don't need to seek :p
2020-06-16 16:17:16 krixano Right, yeah, that's true
2020-06-16 16:17:44 krixano But streaming as it's downloading is better than having to wait, imo. As long as you can cancel it anytime
2020-06-16 16:17:54 companion_cube you can do both
2020-06-16 16:18:00 makeworld You'll have to use a format that's designed for streaming obv
2020-06-16 16:18:01 companion_cube deliver chunks
2020-06-16 16:18:13 companion_cube http has functionalities for that…
2020-06-16 16:18:22 companion_cube (deliver a range of the content)
2020-06-16 16:19:27 krixano Is there any protocol specifically designed for streaming video files like this?
2020-06-16 16:19:59 companion_cube bittorrent? :D
2020-06-16 16:20:11 companion_cube (not really, since it's not ordered, but you can kind of force it I think)
2020-06-16 16:20:12 xq probably rtp?
2020-06-16 16:20:14 companion_cube (cf popcorntime)
2020-06-16 16:20:19 krixano Also, it'd be cool if clients supported some way to link into applications, like VLC for example - then I can just have my gemini capsule link to vlc with the youtube video link
2020-06-16 16:20:34 paper xdg-open is supported in some clients
2020-06-16 16:20:46 makeworld krixano: Definitely there are protocols for streaming
2020-06-16 16:20:52 makeworld RTMP maybe
2020-06-16 16:21:00 paper I have a custom xdg-open script which handles youtube URLs etc
2020-06-16 16:21:08 makeworld But also HTTP works with any video file designed for streaming
2020-06-16 16:21:36 krixano No, I mean, being able to do something like "vlc://youtubevideolink" or something like that...
2020-06-16 16:21:42 makeworld krixano: Better to let the client decide about stuff like that
2020-06-16 16:21:56 companion_cube indeed, just give a mime type
2020-06-16 16:22:00 makeworld It will recognize it's a video file and then try and decide what to do
2020-06-16 16:22:10 paper that's much better
2020-06-16 16:22:10 krixano I don't know how to form links like that, :)
2020-06-16 16:22:39 makeworld Wdym? Just link to the video file
2020-06-16 16:22:40 krixano YouTube doesn't let you directly link to the video file though... or, it's not easily accessible
2020-06-16 16:22:45 makeworld Oh yeah
2020-06-16 16:22:54 makeworld You're out of luck there
2020-06-16 16:23:15 krixano VLC can actually take youtube video page links.
2020-06-16 16:23:20 krixano I wonder how they do that...
2020-06-16 16:23:23 makeworld You could try linking to some frontend service like invidious maybe
2020-06-16 16:23:35 makeworld Maybe they use youtube-dl?
2020-06-16 16:23:44 makeworld youtube-dl can give you a direct video link
2020-06-16 16:23:49 paper_ mpv calls youtubd-dl to get the link
2020-06-16 16:24:03 krixano Does youtube-dl have a library/api?
2020-06-16 16:24:04 makeworld But it isn't portable, the link is unique to your IP address, browser, etc
2020-06-16 16:24:13 makeworld It's only valid for a certain amount of time too
2020-06-16 16:24:21 makeworld krixano: CLI and python lib
2020-06-16 16:24:30 makeworld But again, the link won't be portable so there's no point
2020-06-16 16:24:37 makeworld Sorry
2020-06-16 16:24:38 krixano Right, I was just going to see if I could transfer over the download coming in on my server to gemini
2020-06-16 16:24:43 makeworld Ooh
2020-06-16 16:24:49 makeworld Sounds possible
2020-06-16 16:24:57 makeworld https://github.com/ytdl-org/youtube-dl/
2020-06-16 16:25:03 makeworld It's a great tool btw
2020-06-16 16:25:35 krixano I wish it wasn't in python though
2020-06-16 16:26:27 makeworld I think Python probably made this project possible, because of how quick dev can be
2020-06-16 16:26:47 makeworld And bc it's nice to use to work with changing APIs, string manipulation, etc
2020-06-16 16:28:24 krixano Yeah, idk. I don't really believe that python is quicker to develop in than other languages.
2020-06-16 16:29:11 xq tiwesdaeg: what distro did you compile on and what did you install?
2020-06-16 16:29:28 krixano I'm mostly waiting on Odin language to get arm support (my server runs on a rpi), then I'm completely switching to that.
2020-06-16 16:29:49 krixano (I'm using golang until then, even though it's slow as hell)
2020-06-16 16:30:59 makeworld How is it slow?
2020-06-16 16:31:13 ~tiwesdaeg xq Debian and kristall
2020-06-16 16:31:36 ~tiwesdaeg Or what extras?
2020-06-16 16:31:38 krixano It's slow to both compile and run, because of it's big (and slow) runtime.
2020-06-16 16:31:45 xq well, kristall is clear, but i meant the extras
2020-06-16 16:32:13 paper_ runtime? golang is a compiled language
2020-06-16 16:32:15 companion_cube krixano: oh you did mean Odin the language? oh stable is that these days?
2020-06-16 16:32:24 companion_cube paper_: there's still a runtime with the GC and stuff
2020-06-16 16:32:40 makeworld I've found Go very quick to compile
2020-06-16 16:32:47 makeworld In comparison to something like RUst
2020-06-16 16:32:49 makeworld *Rust
2020-06-16 16:33:04 krixano Well sure, everything is faster than Rust, :D
2020-06-16 16:33:04 paper_ really? they are statically linked executables if you are not using cgo
2020-06-16 16:33:07 ℹ julienxx_ is now known as julienxx
2020-06-16 16:33:07 ℹ Mode #gemini [+o julienxx] by ChanServ
2020-06-16 16:33:18 ~tiwesdaeg A bunch of at stuff
2020-06-16 16:33:25 makeworld Yes but there's still something that runs to manage things
2020-06-16 16:33:28 ~tiwesdaeg QT
2020-06-16 16:33:36 krixano molly-brown on my server can take from 1.5 to 3 seconds to load, while gophernicus takes much much much less than that.
2020-06-16 16:33:37 makeworld Like when you use `runtime.GOOS` paper_
2020-06-16 16:33:42 companion_cube paper_: that's not what runtime means :)
2020-06-16 16:33:53 companion_cube (I mean, yeah, it's linked with the rest)
2020-06-16 16:34:15 paper_ ? ok then, it's probably my mistake
2020-06-16 16:34:44 companion_cube even C has a runtime, at least on PC (with malloc and stdio in it)
2020-06-16 16:34:50 krixano Also, I've developed UI applications in golang, and input was incredibly slow.
2020-06-16 16:34:51 companion_cube a tiny one though, nothing like java or python
2020-06-16 16:35:07 companion_cube krixano: so why Odin and not zig? :)
2020-06-16 16:35:10 krixano Idk if it was the libraries, if it was the whole channel stuff, something
2020-06-16 16:35:16 krixano Because Odin is *really* good.
2020-06-16 16:35:51 krixano And I don't need to experiment with Zig, because I found something that I'm fine with, lol So there's not actually a reason
2020-06-16 16:36:10 companion_cube question is, which one will get to a mature point?
2020-06-16 16:36:16 xq Bill is a nice guy :)
2020-06-16 16:36:27 krixano Yeah, he's really nice
2020-06-16 16:36:51 krixano I've heard Odin is much more stable than Zig, but I don't have first-hand experience with that. All I know is I have literally *zero* problems with Odin.
2020-06-16 16:37:24 krixano I started working on a new project, called "iond" (the name will change later). It uses Sdl.
2020-06-16 16:37:36 krixano (also, to clarify, it's written in Odin)
2020-06-16 16:38:20 ~tiwesdaeg I'm out right now
2020-06-16 16:38:38 krixano There's also this Visual FX thing that's written in Odin, let me see if I can find it...
2020-06-16 16:38:38 companion_cube is there a Odin community ? a LSP? I'm genuinely curious
2020-06-16 16:38:43 ~tiwesdaeg I'll look and see when I get back
2020-06-16 16:38:48 krixano There's a discord server. I'm on there.
2020-06-16 16:39:03 krixano https://discord.gg/Uu7WNG
2020-06-16 16:39:37 krixano The visual fx software I was talking about is being made for enterprise.
2020-06-16 16:39:54 companion_cube welp, I hate discord, but oh well
2020-06-16 16:40:35 xq yeah, Bill is quite active on Discord
2020-06-16 16:40:45 xq he's also in the Zig discord, discussing fancy topics
2020-06-16 16:40:55 krixano xq, are you on the Odin discord?
2020-06-16 16:41:08 xq nah
2020-06-16 16:41:23 xq i'm happy with zig and i kinda don't like Odins syntax
2020-06-16 16:41:23 companion_cube is there a timeline for odin 1.0?
2020-06-16 16:42:06 krixano There's a roadmap, but it doesn't have 1.0 on it yet. gingerbill is almost done with the new llvm c api backend I think
2020-06-16 16:42:28 krixano https://odin-lang.org
2020-06-16 16:42:37 krixano https://github.com/odin-lang/odin
2020-06-16 16:43:01 krixano I *love* Odin's syntax.
2020-06-16 16:43:11 krixano Odin's syntax isn't that different from Zig, is it?
2020-06-16 16:43:31 companion_cube it's more go-like it seems
2020-06-16 16:43:35 companion_cube are there sum types?
2020-06-16 16:44:04 companion_cube ah, tagged union
2020-06-16 16:44:07 krixano Idk... you can ask the odin discord about that. I am somewhat new to Odin, about a month ago
2020-06-16 16:44:10 companion_cube *sigh of relief*
2020-06-16 16:44:23 krixano Yeah, there's tagged unions, which are useful
2020-06-16 16:44:50 companion_cube although the whole Go vibe… meh :/
2020-06-16 16:45:03 krixano What's wrong with that?
2020-06-16 16:45:18 companion_cube it's full of (imho) bad ideas :p
2020-06-16 16:45:25 companion_cube zero values, nil, all that
2020-06-16 16:45:32 krixano It's only like Go in syntax and the type system I think. Imo, it's a mix between C and Go
2020-06-16 16:46:13 krixano I'm looking at Zig's syntax, and I absolutely hate it, lol
2020-06-16 16:46:43 krixano nil has a limited use I believe
2020-06-16 16:47:46 krixano nil for pointer, typeid, and "any" types.
2020-06-16 16:48:19 krixano any types are an actual type, it's not saying any of Odin's types, just to clarify :)
2020-06-16 16:48:47 krixano Also, not having nil for pointers is a *very* bad decision, imo
2020-06-16 16:48:54 companion_cube I disagree, but well
2020-06-16 16:49:07 companion_cube I think it's irresponsible to not have a non-nullable pointer type, let's say
2020-06-16 16:49:52 companion_cube `Param_Union :: union(T: typeid) #no_nil {T, Error};` <-- well at least this seem decent
2020-06-16 16:49:54 companion_cube seems*
2020-06-16 16:51:40 krixano Honstly, gingerbill will be better able to explain to you about all of these decisions. He puts a *lot* of thought into the language
2020-06-16 16:54:09 krixano Here's the thing I was tlaking about that's written in Odin: https://jangafx.com/software/embergen/
2020-06-16 16:54:27 companion_cube so… people are using it, nice
2020-06-16 16:55:11 krixano Yeah, I know many people who are using it :)
2020-06-16 16:56:38 companion_cube interesting how there are lots of small bubbles like that
2020-06-16 17:00:16 krixano Yeah, and many of the people from Odin are from the Handmade Network community, too
2020-06-16 17:01:13 companion_cube what's that?
2020-06-16 17:01:30 krixano https://handmade.network
2020-06-16 17:02:15 krixano A community of people who want to improve the state of software, and know more about how the internals of computers work so that we can achieve this improvement
2020-06-16 17:02:37 companion_cube ah well, a minimalist community, I see
2020-06-16 17:02:40 companion_cube ok cool
2020-06-16 17:02:59 krixano Mmmm... not necessarily
2020-06-16 17:04:54 solderpunk has quit (Ping timeout: 120 seconds)
2020-06-16 17:04:57 krixano A lot of people like to develop things from scratch to either learn, or to improve, but you can still use libraries, etc. The main goal is to just make software not so freaking slow, I guess. Idk... there's slightly different ideas on what the Handmade Network Community is all about I guess. It'd be better you ask people on there I think
2020-06-16 17:05:20 companion_cube well if there's an intersection with odin, I'll talk there first I imagine
2020-06-16 17:05:32 companion_cube it's funny, there's also the sourcehut people in a similar vein
2020-06-16 17:06:22 krixano There's also Future of Code, which a few people with HMN are aware of, but FoC is taking a different approach. HMN is more about less abstraction, and FoC wants to improve coding by more abstraction, I think.
2020-06-16 17:06:42 krixano FoC is on Slack
2020-06-16 17:07:01 ▬▬▶ solderpunk has joined #gemini
2020-06-16 17:07:01 krixano https://join.slack.com/t/futureofcoding/shared_invite/zt-8vhwkhg2-rKZkVYJRKTwLbumJWVNaSw
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2020-06-16 17:07:10 krixano Hello solderpunk!
2020-06-16 17:09:00 companion_cube that they're on slack already tells me I don't want to look :p
2020-06-16 17:09:36 krixano HMN came out of Handmade Hero, the tutorial series by Casey Muratori
2020-06-16 17:10:07 companion_cube hum cool
2020-06-16 17:10:12 companion_cube the guy who invented imgui right?
2020-06-16 17:10:15 ~tiwesdaeg xq: I think it was libssl-dev, qtbase5-dev, libqt5svg5, and libqt5svg5-dev
2020-06-16 17:10:17 companion_cube (the imgui paradigm)
2020-06-16 17:10:18 krixano Yeah
2020-06-16 17:10:51 ~tiwesdaeg I installed both of the svg packages at the same time
2020-06-16 17:10:55 ~tiwesdaeg I'm not sure if you need both
2020-06-16 17:11:02 kensanata the backlog on this channel... is longer than I expected!
2020-06-16 17:11:28 acdw yeah it's 🔥 this morning
2020-06-16 17:11:32 krixano I thought libqt5svg5-dev would automatically install libqt5svg5, that's why I didn't put it in the readme in my PR
2020-06-16 17:11:37 companion_cube yeah I like off topic :p
2020-06-16 17:12:09 ~tiwesdaeg we are currently tied with #envs for the 5th largest channel
2020-06-16 17:12:45 ~tiwesdaeg krixano: I'm sure you're right
2020-06-16 17:16:54 krixano This astrobotany site is *really* cool!
2020-06-16 17:17:01 ▬▬▶ lickthecat has joined #gemini
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2020-06-16 17:17:50 krixano Oh, xq, I have a problem with unicode emojis not displaying, like on the astrobotany capsule
2020-06-16 17:18:00 krixano (in Kristall)
2020-06-16 17:20:06 ~tiwesdaeg krixano: I find that is always a system issue
2020-06-16 17:20:50 krixano Yeah, I know it's a system issue, because it works in tomasino's video
2020-06-16 17:20:51 ~tiwesdaeg I have had some weird stuff with netbsd
2020-06-16 17:21:06 ~tiwesdaeg do you have symbola installed?
2020-06-16 17:21:10 krixano But I was just wondering if there was something I needed to install or something
2020-06-16 17:21:44 @tomasino Disable experimental line markup if you have it on
2020-06-16 17:21:57 @tomasino It screws up the unicode rendering
2020-06-16 17:22:26 ~tiwesdaeg I've got symbola font installed on debian and all the UTF-8 emoji seem to be working
2020-06-16 17:22:42 @tomasino i was having issues with utf-8 rendering in all fonts until i disabled that setting
2020-06-16 17:22:44 krixano Just installed symbola, and disabled the experimental thing, and I still have the problem
2020-06-16 17:22:55 @tomasino then... yeah, system problem
2020-06-16 17:23:04 @tomasino you restarted kristall, right?
2020-06-16 17:23:08 @tomasino after changing fonts?
2020-06-16 17:23:17 krixano I have to change the font too?
2020-06-16 17:23:29 @tomasino what font do you have chosen?
2020-06-16 17:23:42 krixano liberation sans atm
2020-06-16 17:24:01 @tomasino that should do fine
2020-06-16 17:24:14 @tomasino i'm using open sans if you want to be double-sure
2020-06-16 17:24:32 @tomasino changing fonts requires a restart, for me at least
2020-06-16 17:25:31 ~tiwesdaeg krixano: what operating system?
2020-06-16 17:25:37 krixano Pop os
2020-06-16 17:26:07 ~tiwesdaeg isn't that ubuntu based?
2020-06-16 17:26:11 krixano Yeah
2020-06-16 17:26:42 @tomasino pop is sexy
2020-06-16 17:26:58 ~tiwesdaeg so it should be pretty close to tomasino's setup
2020-06-16 17:27:10 @tomasino mmhmm
2020-06-16 17:28:13 krixano Switched to open sans, not working :(
2020-06-16 17:28:27 ~tiwesdaeg hmmm
2020-06-16 17:28:46 ~tiwesdaeg shouldn't applications register the new font right away?
2020-06-16 17:28:57 ~tiwesdaeg in this case, symbola
2020-06-16 17:29:21 kensanata Added a gemini server for communitywiki.org... gemini://communitywiki.org:1966/do/index lists a bit more than 3000 pages.
2020-06-16 17:29:46 krixano I also couldn't get the desktop file for Kristall working either
2020-06-16 17:29:59 @tomasino the makefile didn't just install it properly for you?
2020-06-16 17:30:02 @tomasino make install?
2020-06-16 17:30:22 krixano Idk, but Kristall isn't listed in my applications
2020-06-16 17:30:54 krixano I even manually copied the kristall file over. I also tried making my own desktop file for a different program, and that didn't work... so my system is all kinds of messed up, lol
2020-06-16 17:31:22 ~tiwesdaeg krixano: there is an included Makefile that works great
2020-06-16 17:31:39 krixano I used the make file for building, I didn't realize there was an install option though
2020-06-16 17:31:44 ~tiwesdaeg no more needing to mkdir build and qmake and all that
2020-06-16 17:31:54 krixano Oh....
2020-06-16 17:32:02 krixano You mean the makefile in the root directory of the project
2020-06-16 17:32:12 ~tiwesdaeg git pull kristall address
2020-06-16 17:32:16 ~tiwesdaeg cd kristall
2020-06-16 17:32:19 ~tiwesdaeg make install
2020-06-16 17:32:27 ~tiwesdaeg you cna make clean too
2020-06-16 17:32:43 krixano Well... that worked! Kristall's listed in my applications now!
2020-06-16 17:32:47 @tomasino YAY
2020-06-16 17:33:04 ⚡ tomasino does a makefile jig
2020-06-16 17:33:24 krixano Could the problem have been because I put kristall in the path in .bashrc, but gnome wasn't seeing it
2020-06-16 17:33:35 acdw krixano: yes
2020-06-16 17:33:46 krixano Ok, good to know
2020-06-16 17:33:49 krixano Thanks
2020-06-16 17:34:07 krixano Still can't get this unicode working though. Is there some qt thing I need to install for it or something?
2020-06-16 17:34:18 krixano *unicode emoji
2020-06-16 17:34:20 ▬▬▶ lickthecat has joined #gemini
2020-06-16 17:34:25 ~tiwesdaeg I'm not sure
2020-06-16 17:34:40 ~tiwesdaeg everything is displaying for me on debian and this is a pretty new install
2020-06-16 17:34:45 acdw afaik .desktop files need to be in /usr/share/applications or ~/.local/share/applications
2020-06-16 17:34:59 @tomasino they also work in /usr/local/share/applications
2020-06-16 17:35:02 acdw tho I haven't had luck with ~/.local/share/applications on MATE, so IDK
2020-06-16 17:35:07 acdw thanks tomasino
2020-06-16 17:35:10 krixano Right, that's where I put the file
2020-06-16 17:35:22 krixano But I didn't have the binary in path until .bashrc gets executed.
2020-06-16 17:35:42 acdw oh so the .desktop file didn't know where to find kristall, I see
2020-06-16 17:35:54 krixano I think that might have been the problem, idk
2020-06-16 17:36:04 acdw It probably has an `Exec=kristall` line which means kristall will need to be in the PATH for that file
2020-06-16 17:36:13 krixano Right
2020-06-16 17:36:13 acdw which means for the X session
2020-06-16 17:36:20 ~tiwesdaeg krixano: maybe restart x/wayland or just your login session
2020-06-16 17:36:29 ~tiwesdaeg see if that fixes the emoji issue
2020-06-16 17:36:41 krixano Ok, brb
2020-06-16 17:37:26 krixano Ok, back!
2020-06-16 17:37:42 krixano Did not work :(
2020-06-16 17:38:05 acdw :(
2020-06-16 17:41:02 krixano According to this archlinux bbs post, someone had to uninstal noto-fonts to get emojis working
2020-06-16 17:43:21 kensanata has quit (The TLS connection was non-properly terminated.)
2020-06-16 17:45:06 ~tiwesdaeg I've got noto-fonts installed
2020-06-16 17:45:25 krixano Yeah, uninstalling it didn't do anything
2020-06-16 17:45:28 ~tiwesdaeg there is a noto-emoji package I think for arch
2020-06-16 17:46:29 krixano I have fonts-noto-color-emoji installed
2020-06-16 17:46:39 ~tiwesdaeg xq: kristall text rendering question
2020-06-16 17:46:58 ~tiwesdaeg gemini://tilde.pink/ the first paragraph is displayed with large spacing
2020-06-16 17:47:15 ~tiwesdaeg the ones under News are not
2020-06-16 17:47:32 ~tiwesdaeg each one of those is one long line
2020-06-16 17:47:47 krixano So, actually some emoji's do work... the pencil on tilde.pink works for me, for example. None of the others do though
2020-06-16 17:48:08 ~tiwesdaeg krixano: I had that same issue on openbsd
2020-06-16 17:48:45 ~tiwesdaeg it's like the programming isn't trying to use another font that can display the characters
2020-06-16 17:49:08 ~tiwesdaeg can you see them outside of kristall?
2020-06-16 17:49:19 krixano I believe so
2020-06-16 17:49:21 ~tiwesdaeg 📕
2020-06-16 17:49:44 krixano Yeah, I see that
2020-06-16 17:49:48 krixano And they work in firefox
2020-06-16 17:51:57 krixano The gemini docs on tilde.pink say it uses jetforce, but in the news section, is says they switched to molly-brown
2020-06-16 17:52:06 ~tiwesdaeg https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxquestions/comments/dap511/arch_linux_apps_not_displaying_emojis_correctly/
2020-06-16 17:52:12 ~tiwesdaeg I haven't updated it
2020-06-16 17:52:18 ~tiwesdaeg we're on gemserv now
2020-06-16 17:52:21 ~tiwesdaeg fast times
2020-06-16 17:52:21 krixano Oh wait... you switched again!
2020-06-16 17:52:50 ~tiwesdaeg anyway, look at that fontconfig section
2020-06-16 17:52:50 krixano Why did you switch, I'm wondering?
2020-06-16 17:53:07 ~tiwesdaeg gemserv had cgi working correctly early on
2020-06-16 17:53:16 ~tiwesdaeg and now we have cgi anywhere
2020-06-16 17:53:28 ~tiwesdaeg so my index.gmi is a cgi script
2020-06-16 17:53:32 krixano Ah, yeah.
2020-06-16 17:53:39 @ben same on tilde.team
2020-06-16 17:53:41 ~tiwesdaeg which is how I list users with gemini pages
2020-06-16 17:53:50 krixano I was waiting for molly-brown to get cgi. It has cgi support now though.
2020-06-16 17:56:37 @julienxx I’m running molly-brown on 9til.de with some CGI stuff. Works very well.
2020-06-16 17:57:01 krixano Yeah, I use molly-brown for pon.ix.tc
2020-06-16 17:57:24 krixano Hm.. 9til.de is giving me network errors
2020-06-16 17:58:06 @tomasino lookin' good here
2020-06-16 17:58:26 ~tiwesdaeg hey, in the intro paragraph, it does say gemserv
2020-06-16 17:59:20 krixano Yeah, I was talking about under documentation, then Gemini
2020-06-16 17:59:24 ~tiwesdaeg at least I did get around to updating something
2020-06-16 17:59:30 acdw has quit (Client exited)
2020-06-16 17:59:44 krixano I might switch off of Pop os. I'm not sure I really care for it.
2020-06-16 18:00:12 krixano How good is Houston search engine compared to GUS?
2020-06-16 18:00:28 krixano This is my first time seeing it, it wasn't there last time I was on gemini I don't think
2020-06-16 18:01:06 wgreenhouse wow, a plan9 tilde?
2020-06-16 18:01:09 wgreenhouse two, even?
2020-06-16 18:02:00 ~tiwesdaeg there, I fixed it
2020-06-16 18:02:03 ~tiwesdaeg on gemini at least
2020-06-16 18:02:20 xq <tiwesdaeg> xq: kristall text rendering question
2020-06-16 18:02:25 xq not sure what creates this……
2020-06-16 18:02:32 xq have to check out the generated document for that
2020-06-16 18:02:44 xq gemserv is quite nice
2020-06-16 18:02:52 @julienxx wgreenhouse: soon I hope :)
2020-06-16 18:02:56 ~tiwesdaeg it just seems kind of weird
2020-06-16 18:03:09 wgreenhouse julienxx: neat :D
2020-06-16 18:03:29 ⚡ wgreenhouse looks forward to having the chance to try to get drawterm running :D
2020-06-16 18:03:30 ~tiwesdaeg the line is actually created by a bunch of printf statements with the last one ending in a newline
2020-06-16 18:03:41 ~tiwesdaeg makes it easier to edit
2020-06-16 18:04:38 xq tiwesdaeg it should not matter how it was created :D
2020-06-16 18:04:46 ~tiwesdaeg I know ;P
2020-06-16 18:06:02 xq good :D
2020-06-16 18:06:49 ~tiwesdaeg xq: figured it out. I removed 🕶
2020-06-16 18:07:04 xq oh
2020-06-16 18:07:14 xq yeah that may create a larger character → increased line spacing
2020-06-16 18:07:18 ~tiwesdaeg so adding the UTF-8 character did it
2020-06-16 18:08:17 xq nah, it's an emoji that did it
2020-06-16 18:08:18 xq not utf-8
2020-06-16 18:08:55 ~tiwesdaeg so... I just need to add more emojis so all the lines are spaced the same ;P
2020-06-16 18:09:06 ⚡ tiwesdaeg puts on his 🕶
2020-06-16 18:10:28 ~tiwesdaeg kristall feature request: User configurable text wrapping so I can fullscreen and read
2020-06-16 18:11:49 xq hm?
2020-06-16 18:11:56 xq you mean a max-width n the document?
2020-06-16 18:12:02 ~tiwesdaeg for paragraphs
2020-06-16 18:12:13 ~tiwesdaeg not block quotes
2020-06-16 18:12:17 xq i have to look how to solve that
2020-06-16 18:12:21 xq block quotes are also paragraphs ;)
2020-06-16 18:12:35 ~tiwesdaeg I meant the ``` lines
2020-06-16 18:12:49 xq ah
2020-06-16 18:12:50 xq preformatted
2020-06-16 18:12:54 ~tiwesdaeg there you go
2020-06-16 18:12:57 xq yeah, those aren't word-wrapped anyways
2020-06-16 18:13:43 ~tiwesdaeg I've been slowly putting all my paragraphs on single lines to conform to the gemini standard
2020-06-16 18:14:02 ~tiwesdaeg it would be nice in the client to say, wrap at 85 characters
2020-06-16 18:16:03 krixano Someone mentioned on the mailing list blockquote and preformatted text, so they gave an example that uses ``` with > inside. However, what if we did > ```?
2020-06-16 18:16:30 krixano (oh... this irc client apparently does markdown!)
2020-06-16 18:19:35 xq tiwesdaeg, there's no concept of 85 characters though ;) :D
2020-06-16 18:20:17 ~tiwesdaeg in gopher I wrapped everything manually
2020-06-16 18:20:57 xq i can give you pixels or cm :D
2020-06-16 18:21:11 ~tiwesdaeg I'm sure you could take a string, split that string at the space closest to 85 characters, then evaluate string[1] for the same
2020-06-16 18:21:32 xq that'S not how good text rendering works
2020-06-16 18:21:40 xq this will give you a sawblade outline on the right side
2020-06-16 18:21:49 ~tiwesdaeg hmmm
2020-06-16 18:22:01 xq using cm or pixels is better ;)
2020-06-16 18:22:09 xq will work with non-monospaced fonts as well
2020-06-16 18:22:13 krixano xq, it'd be cool to have justified text
2020-06-16 18:22:16 ~tiwesdaeg cm is easier to think in for text
2020-06-16 18:22:37 xq i wanted to add ctrl+mousewheel for zoom anyways :D
2020-06-16 18:22:44 ~tiwesdaeg nice
2020-06-16 18:24:06 xq my plan is to have Kristall look-and-feel like a modern day web browser
2020-06-16 18:24:09 xq and not like Dillo :D
2020-06-16 18:24:11 wgreenhouse a gemini client that renders like TeX, like a book with hyphenation and justified paragraphs, would be kind of neat
2020-06-16 18:24:24 xq hehe
2020-06-16 18:24:33 xq i can give you "inset" the first line paragraphs
2020-06-16 18:24:48 krixano Also, Dropcaps!
2020-06-16 18:26:00 krixano Oh, also, changing quotes to the fancier directional ones would be interesting.
2020-06-16 18:26:20 xq Dropcaps?
2020-06-16 18:26:37 krixano When you start a paragraph with a big letter. :D
2020-06-16 18:26:45 xq oh yeah, that's neat
2020-06-16 18:26:49 xq but you need long paragraphs for that
2020-06-16 18:26:55 krixano Right, yeah
2020-06-16 18:52:06 krixano xq, what are your goals with supporting http(x)? Is it going to be like a text-based browser, or are you planning on implementing CSS?
2020-06-16 18:52:17 krixano * http(s)
2020-06-16 18:53:20 xq well, http(s)-support doesn't imply CSS/HTML/JS/WASM support
2020-06-16 18:53:21 xq ;)
2020-06-16 18:53:40 krixano Right, I know... but it looks like you are just taking the text out of HTML currently?
2020-06-16 18:53:47 xq but: i also provide HTML-support without CSS/JS/WASM
2020-06-16 18:53:54 xq for a "text-only" web experience
2020-06-16 18:54:05 xq i would like to experiement a bit with some alternative markup languages
2020-06-16 18:54:13 xq also using simple HTML will yield well-usable sites
2020-06-16 18:54:32 xq visit https://mq32.de with Kristall and you'll see
2020-06-16 18:55:08 krixano Sure, it can if the site is made to be usable.
2020-06-16 18:55:22 xq yeah, that's the whole idea behind
2020-06-16 18:55:26 krixano * ... made to be usable in that way
2020-06-16 18:55:32 xq i don't want to support full web suite
2020-06-16 18:55:36 krixano Right
2020-06-16 18:55:41 xq but i want to support the text-web
2020-06-16 18:55:51 xq all my sites are links-certified *grin*
2020-06-16 18:56:06 krixano That's basically what I was asking. Thanks! :)
2020-06-16 18:56:09 xq someone probably already made that a batch you can put on your site
2020-06-16 18:56:12 krixano links-certified?
2020-06-16 18:56:19 xq you know the links browser?
2020-06-16 18:56:32 krixano Yes
2020-06-16 18:57:01 xq there once was some badges like "works with chromium" or something like that
2020-06-16 18:57:15 xq and i always "joke" that my sites also work with links
2020-06-16 19:00:11 krixano Wasn't there a wikipedia for gemini, kinda like the gopher one?
2020-06-16 19:02:43 xq hm
2020-06-16 19:04:20 krixano Maybe there wasn't... I can't find it in GUS or the server list on gemini.circumlunar.space
2020-06-16 19:04:33 xq ask GUS?
2020-06-16 19:08:19 krixano I tried searching on GUS, but got a lot of results from alexshroeder's site, which show up blank.
2020-06-16 19:09:12 xq :D
2020-06-16 19:10:33 @tomasino i don't remember one
2020-06-16 19:10:37 lickthecat has quit (Client exited)
2020-06-16 19:12:35 ⚡ xq is happy
2020-06-16 19:12:41 xq my refactoring of Kristall is going pretty well
2020-06-16 19:12:51 xq unifying a lot of protocol handling, making it way easier to include more protocols in the future
2020-06-16 19:14:05 @tomasino you were getting some fediverse love earlier
2020-06-16 19:14:17 @tomasino people saw your client in my vid and were thirsting
2020-06-16 19:14:40 xq neat!
2020-06-16 19:15:13 @tomasino https://tiny.tilde.website/@rjt/104354233957668503
2020-06-16 19:22:15 krixano His client is the best gopher and gemini client I've ever seen thus far
2020-06-16 19:24:03 krixano xq, have you considered getting a github action working to automatically build binaries for Windows and Linux and Mac?
2020-06-16 19:24:23 companion_cube there's no AUR for kristall :/
2020-06-16 19:25:21 @tomasino and my axe, i mean... and not Apt!
2020-06-16 19:26:18 jan and no freebsd port
2020-06-16 19:27:26 @tomasino where'd we net out on ubuntu? do i need to upgrade g++?
2020-06-16 19:30:35 xq tomasino: can you answer/ask ~rjt what DAT is?
2020-06-16 19:30:49 krixano Ok, so I'm going to start working on a new project today for gemini.... it's a mirror of a clearnet site
2020-06-16 19:31:01 xq krixano: i'm planning to do so, but i don't like the github actions thingy at all
2020-06-16 19:31:02 @tomasino https://dat.foundation/
2020-06-16 19:31:19 xq maybe i should do some other repo that does the building thing
2020-06-16 19:31:46 krixano Yeah, I couldn't remember what the other word was, so I just used the term "github actions", but any auto-build thing would be cool
2020-06-16 19:31:50 @tomasino it's like IPFS and stuff
2020-06-16 19:32:18 companion_cube but does it work?
2020-06-16 19:32:24 @tomasino DAT? yeah, it's functional
2020-06-16 19:32:33 krixano Yeah, there's ZeroNet, DAT, IPFS, Beaker Browser, blockstack, Maid safe, Freenet, and Solid :)
2020-06-16 19:32:49 companion_cube we could have a simpler one that is the gemini of dat/ipfs :p
2020-06-16 19:32:59 krixano I actually did Gopher for ZeroNet
2020-06-16 19:33:01 companion_cube addressed by sha256(content)
2020-06-16 19:33:05 krixano But it doesn't work anymore
2020-06-16 19:33:24 ~tiwesdaeg tomasino: in kristall/build/Makefile at the very end of the CXXFLAGS line add ' -std=c++17'
2020-06-16 19:33:33 @tomasino i tried that, same error
2020-06-16 19:33:40 ~tiwesdaeg hmmm
2020-06-16 19:34:03 @tomasino or no
2020-06-16 19:34:05 ~tiwesdaeg could be your g++ doesn't support C++17
2020-06-16 19:34:19 krixano You use C++17 features?
2020-06-16 19:34:22 @tomasino if i was in teh parent folder it didn't but now it's going
2020-06-16 19:34:36 ~tiwesdaeg yeah, it needs to be the build folder
2020-06-16 19:34:44 ~tiwesdaeg you can then run the parent make install again
2020-06-16 19:35:17 ~tiwesdaeg something about debian based systems is not including that flag?
2020-06-16 19:35:24 krixano So, I get to try to convert markdown files into gemini files for my new project, which will be interesting.... shouldn't be too hard I don't think...
2020-06-16 19:35:26 xq krixano: yeah i use some C++17
2020-06-16 19:35:28 krixano Except for inline links
2020-06-16 19:35:55 @tomasino adding in more #include <assert> things
2020-06-16 19:36:05 jan krixano: https://pypi.org/project/md2gemini/
2020-06-16 19:36:45 ~tiwesdaeg what we really need is a markdown>gemini>markdown converter
2020-06-16 19:37:31 jan and markdown to gophermap. sorry, wrong channel
2020-06-16 19:37:35 @tomasino missing "optional" stuff left and right too
2020-06-16 19:37:47 @tomasino ../src/trustedhostcollection.hpp:37:10: error: ‘optional’ in namespace ‘std’ does not name a template type
2020-06-16 19:38:00 xq it's either the include
2020-06-16 19:38:05 xq or you need to rerun the makefile
2020-06-16 19:38:18 xq go into the build dir and run make there
2020-06-16 19:38:35 @tomasino that's running make inside build
2020-06-16 19:38:51 @tomasino i added 3 or 4 assert includes before getting to this error
2020-06-16 19:40:39 xq hmm *thinking*
2020-06-16 19:41:05 xq oh, solderpunk published the blog entry!
2020-06-16 19:41:09 ⚡ xq is now reading…
2020-06-16 19:44:04 @tomasino oooh, nice
2020-06-16 19:44:11 @tomasino gonna read once i'm off this call
2020-06-16 19:49:22 solderpunk Oh, darn it, CAPCOM beat me to the announcement!
2020-06-16 19:49:33 solderpunk Probbaly still some typos and things in there, lemme know.
2020-06-16 19:49:47 solderpunk It's friggin' long, I realise. It's idea dense.
2020-06-16 19:49:48 krixano Hello solderpunk!
2020-06-16 19:50:19 @tomasino stupid conference calls
2020-06-16 19:50:21 @tomasino i wanna read it!
2020-06-16 19:50:48 xq solderpunk: it looks like you've come to a similar conclusion than i am
2020-06-16 19:50:53 xq <solderpunk> Oh, darn it, CAPCOM beat me to the announcement!
2020-06-16 19:50:56 xq it was mere polling!
2020-06-16 19:51:02 xq i just checked if you published your blog entry :D
2020-06-16 19:51:04 xq and there it was
2020-06-16 19:51:46 solderpunk Ah, okay.
2020-06-16 19:53:16 solderpunk Announced it on the list.
2020-06-16 19:54:30 krixano solderpunk, the cert idea, especially when used with cli apps, is one of the best ideas in gemini, imo
2020-06-16 19:55:28 xq yep :)
2020-06-16 19:55:42 ⚡ xq has plans in Kristall to solve some of the stuff you talked about
2020-06-16 19:55:44 solderpunk I'm glad to hear it. :)
2020-06-16 19:56:00 krixano Btw, I've changed my mine on YT comments :)
2020-06-16 19:56:02 xq one is to disable the client certificates when doing host switches
2020-06-16 19:56:06 krixano * mine -> mind
2020-06-16 19:56:11 ⚡ tiwesdaeg is working on getting gemfeed to work right now
2020-06-16 19:56:18 solderpunk Like, the cert-secured CLI apps bound to a single location that I outline in that post are, I think, super tremendously awesome.
2020-06-16 19:56:27 solderpunk I can really see them catching on in the pubnix scene.
2020-06-16 19:56:33 solderpunk tiwesdaeg: Need help?
2020-06-16 19:56:45 xq and now, after reading your blog post: adding enable-patterns on client certificates which disable certs even on the same host
2020-06-16 19:56:52 ~tiwesdaeg just learning the ins and outs of the freebsd package system
2020-06-16 19:57:21 ~tiwesdaeg pip is currently installing lxml for feedgen
2020-06-16 19:57:36 ~tiwesdaeg it's taking a while
2020-06-16 20:00:12 ~tiwesdaeg there we go
2020-06-16 20:00:41 ~tiwesdaeg I needed some quotes for -t -a and -e
2020-06-16 20:01:29 ▬▬▶ lukee has joined #gemini
2020-06-16 20:02:02 lukee hi folks - a busy night on the geminiverse with a new post from solderpunk
2020-06-16 20:02:21 ~tiwesdaeg been a busy day here on #gemini
2020-06-16 20:03:11 xq hey lukee
2020-06-16 20:03:49 xq solderpunk: there's no official recommendation on how to implement TOFU atm, right?
2020-06-16 20:04:30 solderpunk That's right, for now.
2020-06-16 20:04:32 solderpunk Hi lukee!
2020-06-16 20:05:08 xq okay, so i keep the SSH way (storing the pubkey)
2020-06-16 20:06:02 solderpunk Cool.
2020-06-16 20:08:11 xq i really need to make a walkthrough video with all the new certificate stuff and update the manual
2020-06-16 20:09:53 @tomasino indeed
2020-06-16 20:10:24 @tomasino i'm listening to people ramble about prior auths and reimbursements on generic acne & Rosacia meds.
2020-06-16 20:10:33 ⚡ tomasino wants to read about gemini!
2020-06-16 20:10:49 xq right now, i'm improving overall error handling and response
2020-06-16 20:10:52 @tomasino Yeesh, can't type today. double spacing left and right
2020-06-16 20:11:05 xq plan: make improved browser-like error messages like
2020-06-16 20:11:26 xq "The server refused connection at this port. Check your URL if it contains any errors and try again"
2020-06-16 20:11:28 xq or something
2020-06-16 20:11:37 xq except for … silently failing on such stuff :D
2020-06-16 20:13:00 lukee I just implemented bookmarks in GemiNaut
2020-06-16 20:13:03 ~tiwesdaeg I need a gemini android app with screen reader ability so I can listen to solderpunk's post on the way home
2020-06-16 20:13:21 @tomasino oh,it might be my keyboard acting u p
2020-06-16 20:13:24 lukee I wondered what could possibly be a simple text format to represent a list of links with titles?
2020-06-16 20:13:31 @tomasino those spaces are lagging or double hitting
2020-06-16 20:13:33 @tomasino crap
2020-06-16 20:13:33 lukee hang on a minute
2020-06-16 20:13:55 @tomasino gonna have to clean this keyboard tonight
2020-06-16 20:13:56 lukee we have one of course. So GemiNaut bookmarks are bookmarks.gmi
2020-06-16 20:14:05 solderpunk Haha, yes, precisely!
2020-06-16 20:14:20 solderpunk VF-1 and AV-98 implement their bookmarks with gophermaps or .gmi files, respectively.
2020-06-16 20:14:55 xq lukee: my about: scheme resolves everything to text/gemini as well :D
2020-06-16 20:14:55 lukee I even thought you could use the heading levels to nest them in the menu structure.
2020-06-16 20:15:08 lukee but that is for another day
2020-06-16 20:16:07 lukee I copped out of doing the help file in gemini, did it in html. I should dogfood that too
2020-06-16 20:16:15 @tomasino hah, my keyboard is FILTHY
2020-06-16 20:17:17 lukee personally I think text/gemini has a lot of potential as a simple markup language in a number of other domains
2020-06-16 20:17:33 @tomasino I love it as a format
2020-06-16 20:17:47 companion_cube lukee: what's its benefit compared to, say, markdown?
2020-06-16 20:17:49 lukee JSON - we're coming after you
2020-06-16 20:17:53 companion_cube if you don't feel like being minimalistic
2020-06-16 20:17:54 lukee not really
2020-06-16 20:17:57 xq JSON is horrible
2020-06-16 20:17:57 solderpunk Well, if nothing else, we've produced a nice markup language. :)
2020-06-16 20:18:12 lukee hey not so modest round here
2020-06-16 20:18:13 lukee please
2020-06-16 20:18:40 lukee @companion_cube - it has to be the simplicity of parsing
2020-06-16 20:18:45 solderpunk Absolutely.
2020-06-16 20:19:00 lukee and you dont need a 5 page crib sheet to write it
2020-06-16 20:19:17 lukee and there arent 5 different dialects
2020-06-16 20:19:28 solderpunk Somebody wrote a phlog post about Gemini recently which claimed that it used Markdown as its format and it upset me so much!
2020-06-16 20:19:29 companion_cube I mean, ok, but how does that help users?
2020-06-16 20:19:51 lukee well its an newbie error
2020-06-16 20:20:03 solderpunk You can write an entire Gemini client *including* the text/gemini formatter with less code than a Markdown formatter.
2020-06-16 20:20:38 lukee I do like the fact that gemtext is a subset of sort-of-standardised markdown
2020-06-16 20:20:53 lukee it means you can use markdown editors to create it if you want
2020-06-16 20:21:01 companion_cube solderpunk: but it's also less flexible 🤷
2020-06-16 20:21:36 ⚡ dozens runs to make sure they didn't accidentally call text/gemini markdown
2020-06-16 20:21:38 solderpunk Sure.
2020-06-16 20:21:44 solderpunk Haha, not you, dozens.
2020-06-16 20:21:46 lukee (puts on zen hat) but that is its strength
2020-06-16 20:22:15 dozens haha, I definitely mentioned gemini as something like markdown down down down
2020-06-16 20:22:36 lukee the surprise factor is reduced
2020-06-16 20:22:38 companion_cube it'd be a good format for emails, I think
2020-06-16 20:22:44 lukee yes
2020-06-16 20:22:51 lukee and simple config files
2020-06-16 20:22:52 wgreenhouse given the death of text/enriched
2020-06-16 20:23:30 solderpunk The post I'm thinking of called it exactly Markdown, and even said Gemini was *restricted* to using Markdown, which annoyed me even more because you can serve any darn MIME type you like with it.
2020-06-16 20:24:01 solderpunk But anyway! I'm not holding a grudge. Everything is fine. :)
2020-06-16 20:24:03 lukee Its like when people call the web, the internet
2020-06-16 20:24:11 krixano I don't think it's one of my posts... I hope not anyways.
2020-06-16 20:24:36 solderpunk It's nobody here :)
2020-06-16 20:24:37 lukee but as we know the vast majority is gemtext - not a bad thing
2020-06-16 20:24:38 solderpunk I wouldn't do that.
2020-06-16 20:24:50 krixano * takes big sigh of relief
2020-06-16 20:25:00 krixano How do you do the fancy thing?
2020-06-16 20:25:34 solderpunk Is it /me?
2020-06-16 20:25:37 ⚡ solderpunk tests that...
2020-06-16 20:25:39 solderpunk Yeah.
2020-06-16 20:26:14 lukee I'm still an IRC newbie - how do you do that?
2020-06-16 20:26:30 ⚡ lukee foo
2020-06-16 20:26:34 ⚡ ben bar
2020-06-16 20:26:35 lukee Ahh I see
2020-06-16 20:26:50 ⚡ lukee sees the penny drop
2020-06-16 20:26:53 krixano Ah, yeah, it's /me. Thanks!
2020-06-16 20:26:56 ⚡ xq xq xq xq xq
2020-06-16 20:27:05 xq /me is not using that!
2020-06-16 20:28:39 lukee talking of posts talking about Gemini - is there somewhere that gathers news about Gemini on the web - like articles etc?
2020-06-16 20:29:01 lukee I feel the Gemini presence is very sparse for web visitors
2020-06-16 20:29:26 lukee maybe they are all too terrible to link to like the one above
2020-06-16 20:29:44 lukee But the video by @tomasino was good - for a wider audience
2020-06-16 20:29:49 @tomasino yay video!
2020-06-16 20:29:52 solderpunk I don't think there is.
2020-06-16 20:30:00 xq \o/ Video was really nice!
2020-06-16 20:30:13 solderpunk The sparse web presence, at least in terms of official gemini.circumlunar.space stuff, is kind of by design.
2020-06-16 20:30:25 krixano I've linked a few people to tomasino's video already :)
2020-06-16 20:30:32 @tomasino aww shucks
2020-06-16 20:30:32 solderpunk To try to draw people into Geminispace itself.
2020-06-16 20:30:46 @tomasino it's already my most popular video to date
2020-06-16 20:30:48 @tomasino by a wide margin
2020-06-16 20:30:49 lukee does it work?
2020-06-16 20:31:13 solderpunk I guess I really don't know.
2020-06-16 20:31:23 lukee I understand it, but my antennae say we need to reach out some how
2020-06-16 20:31:54 solderpunk To be honest, if people start getting involved faster than they already are, it's going to be very easy for the mailing list to dissolve into complete chaos.
2020-06-16 20:31:59 lukee maybe we arent ready for the swarming hordes
2020-06-16 20:32:31 solderpunk The HN surge was quite enough for my taste!
2020-06-16 20:32:47 lukee I think we all feel a sense of optimism about it, so its hard to keep it held back
2020-06-16 20:32:54 solderpunk Like, I *do* want this thing to grow. Just, slow and steady if possible.
2020-06-16 20:32:58 companion_cube ohhh, a HN gateway for gemini :-°
2020-06-16 20:33:23 krixano I never look at HN
2020-06-16 20:33:37 lukee I came via HN maybe it was a mistake ;-)
2020-06-16 20:33:53 krixano Wasn't Gemini featured on another site too?
2020-06-16 20:33:54 @tomasino haha
2020-06-16 20:34:04 @tomasino when you hit HN, you probably hit Lobsters too
2020-06-16 20:34:07 solderpunk The lobster one?
2020-06-16 20:34:23 @tomasino someone always takes a trending topic on one and posts to the other
2020-06-16 20:34:27 @tomasino easy karma
2020-06-16 20:35:46 lukee @companion_cube: I would use it if you build it
2020-06-16 20:35:59 companion_cube :D
2020-06-16 20:36:23 solderpunk Hasn't Julien made one?
2020-06-16 20:36:43 solderpunk Oh, that's lobste.rs.
2020-06-16 20:36:57 solderpunk gemini://typed-hole.org/lobsters/lobsters.gemini
2020-06-16 20:37:13 companion_cube ahah nice
2020-06-16 20:37:29 ⚡ lukee added a bookmark to that
2020-06-16 20:37:42 companion_cube although the nesting is a bit sad whenyou click "comments" :/
2020-06-16 20:37:52 companion_cube like, nested lists is a good thing in markdown
2020-06-16 20:37:59 xq oh wow. my unix lazyness has reached a new level
2020-06-16 20:38:02 xq xargs touch
2020-06-16 20:38:36 lukee Maybe better to render as preformatted
2020-06-16 20:38:42 lukee with better nesting
2020-06-16 20:40:35 companion_cube to me it's a bit of a failing of the format :s
2020-06-16 20:41:26 solderpunk Well, it's not supposed to be an ideal format for anything and everything.
2020-06-16 20:41:35 solderpunk Radical simplicity necessarily implies limitations.
2020-06-16 20:41:44 solderpunk The fun is in figure out what cool stuff you can do *within* those limitations.
2020-06-16 20:41:52 solderpunk Instead of getting sad about what you can't do.
2020-06-16 20:42:13 krixano I get a network error for gemini://typed-hole.org also.
2020-06-16 20:42:20 companion_cube right
2020-06-16 20:43:19 lukee its like being michaelangelo and only having a chisel and a block of marble
2020-06-16 20:43:43 @julienxx krixano: that’s weird, both my places seem to work fine from here
2020-06-16 20:43:48 lukee constraints stimulate creativity
2020-06-16 20:44:02 solderpunk Precisely.
2020-06-16 20:44:16 lukee but I do really like the additional line types we have
2020-06-16 20:44:21 companion_cube I guess I like structure :s
2020-06-16 20:44:24 krixano I only partially agree with that. Artists usually pick which limitations they have, and *then* they can do cool things within those limitations. But, it's *also* useful to have different limitations for different creative ideas.
2020-06-16 20:44:54 lukee you can serve text/markdown if you want. Kristall will render it I understand
2020-06-16 20:45:18 solderpunk That's true, krixano.
2020-06-16 20:45:22 lukee Markdown is not too bad in a text editor
2020-06-16 20:45:34 krixano My comment wasn't necessarily related to text/gemin and markdown, it was just mostly on the limitations thing.
2020-06-16 20:45:49 solderpunk I got it. :)
2020-06-16 20:45:56 solderpunk Anyway, time for me to head off to bed.
2020-06-16 20:46:01 krixano Goodnight!
2020-06-16 20:46:07 lukee cheerio
2020-06-16 20:46:08 @tomasino night!
2020-06-16 20:46:14 solderpunk 'night, Geminauts!
2020-06-16 20:46:17 solderpunk has quit (Client exited)
2020-06-16 20:46:29 lukee probably I should dash too - quite late here as well
2020-06-16 20:46:44 lukee try to have some social interaction with the rest of the family
2020-06-16 20:46:46 lukee :)
2020-06-16 20:47:06 lukee has quit (Client exited)
2020-06-16 20:50:49 dkibi i found gemini via sourcehut, when they introduced that project listing castor was one of the top projects
2020-06-16 20:51:09 dkibi that was a few days before it hit HN so I count myself as a proper hipster :P
2020-06-16 21:04:02 ▬▬▶ acdw has joined #gemini
2020-06-16 21:06:14 xj9 i like text/gemini, the other esoformat i use (indental) supports limited nesting, so i'm already conditioned to keep my nested lists shallow.
2020-06-16 21:08:43 acdw "esoformat" I like that a lot
2020-06-16 21:09:09 acdw Do you have a website for indental? It is very hard to Google for
2020-06-16 21:10:06 acdw Also for everyone: I just want to apologize for my articles rising back up to the top of CAPCOM; I sftp'd all of them to the server since I added some alt text and apparently the RSS generator on circumlunar.space uses mtime
2020-06-16 21:10:33 xj9 something my friend made: https://wiki.xxiivv.com/site/indental.html
2020-06-16 21:10:40 xj9 https://wiki.xxiivv.com/site/oscean.html
2020-06-16 21:12:27 acdw oh rad! and tell your friend that site is awesome
2020-06-16 21:16:16 xj9 will do 🙂
2020-06-16 21:20:46 xq <krixano> I get a network error for gemini://typed-hole.org also.
2020-06-16 21:20:48 xq seems to work here
2020-06-16 21:23:03 xq makeworld: i see you are using ECDSA for your server cert. nice!
2020-06-16 21:27:51 ▬▬▶ sentinel has joined #gemini
2020-06-16 21:29:10 ▬▬▶ lickthecat has joined #gemini
2020-06-16 21:34:28 rb100 has quit (Client exited)
2020-06-16 21:49:29 xq nice
2020-06-16 21:50:01 xq i got http(s)-redirections routed through the same logic as gemini redirections
2020-06-16 21:55:27 ▬▬▶ yeti has joined #gemini
2020-06-16 21:58:28 acdw has quit (Client exited)
2020-06-16 22:00:12 @julienxx xq: kristall runs on Haiku https://tiny.tilde.website/@insom/104355635298156050 that’s neat!
2020-06-16 22:00:36 xq sexey!
2020-06-16 22:03:31 dkibi I don't understand why my gemlog post shows up twice
2020-06-16 22:11:58 lickthecat has quit (Client exited)
2020-06-16 22:48:59 dozens i feel like haiku is having a Moment right now... I keep seeing it mentioned
2020-06-16 22:51:16 makeworld xq: I just use my Let's Encrypt cert actually
2020-06-16 22:51:33 xq :)
2020-06-16 22:51:47 makeworld Also does anyone have an idea what my client/server library is doing wrong?
2020-06-16 22:51:51 krixano Has anybody ever thought of making an email alternative?
2020-06-16 22:51:54 makeworld I keep getting EOF on redirects
2020-06-16 22:52:03 makeworld https://github.com/makeworld-the-better-one/go-gemini
2020-06-16 22:52:05 xq krixano: i think yes ^^
2020-06-16 22:52:14 makeworld Like as if the server didn't send anything bacck
2020-06-16 22:52:44 makeworld It could be my browser code, but if someone could take a look at that and let me know if they see any issues that would cause a redirect that would be great
2020-06-16 22:53:01 krixano How complicated is email? It seems pretty complicated to setup, and a lot of the server seems to be pretty buggy from what I've read
2020-06-16 22:53:21 makeworld The harder problem is getting the big servers to accept you, I'm told
2020-06-16 22:53:31 makeworld The general advice seems to not try and set up your own server
2020-06-16 22:53:46 makeworld *seems to be to not try and set up
2020-06-16 22:54:01 xq makeworld: there's https://mailcow.email/
2020-06-16 22:54:08 xq which is the "single click email server solution"
2020-06-16 22:54:13 xq and it's good!
2020-06-16 22:54:21 makeworld Oh cool
2020-06-16 22:54:33 makeworld Does anyone know Go and can look at my lib? ^^
2020-06-16 22:54:49 krixano So, I've been thinking we could just create our own alternative to email that's much simpler, has similar goals to gemini by being privacy driven and non-extensible, and we can use text/gemini or something similar for it.
2020-06-16 22:54:50 @ben setting up mail server is kinda tricky
2020-06-16 22:54:50 xq :D
2020-06-16 22:54:56 @ben but it's not that bad
2020-06-16 22:55:08 xq krixano: i'm kinda in for that…
2020-06-16 22:55:21 xq wanted to do something like that for a long time …
2020-06-16 22:55:22 makeworld krixano: I think that would be kind of a big fruitless project honestly
2020-06-16 22:55:26 @ben email is good if you can stay away from gafam
2020-06-16 22:55:48 xq but yeah, it's probably nothing that will be used in the end except for some nerds D
2020-06-16 22:55:51 makeworld Creating another type of message system might be fun, but it's just another thing to try and tell people to use
2020-06-16 22:56:00 @ben email is ubiquitous
2020-06-16 22:56:03 makeworld No harm in creating it, but I wouldn't except much usage
2020-06-16 22:56:28 krixano How easy is it to program an email server?
2020-06-16 22:57:08 yeti start looking at telnetd...
2020-06-16 22:57:14 yeti plaintext protocol
2020-06-16 22:57:21 yeti then add your backend
2020-06-16 22:57:37 makeworld I assume they want TLS
2020-06-16 22:57:58 xq "email" is a pretty simple protocol
2020-06-16 22:58:03 xq you have pop/imap/smtp
2020-06-16 22:58:08 xq but then there's extensions
2020-06-16 22:58:35 krixano Then why are all the servers crappy?
2020-06-16 23:00:38 xq because "there's extensions" :D
2020-06-16 23:00:49 companion_cube and then a simpler IRC!
2020-06-16 23:00:54 companion_cube oh wait it's already IRC.
2020-06-16 23:01:21 companion_cube (messaging protocols are a lot of fun though)
2020-06-16 23:01:34 xq friend of mine wants to write a new IRC server
2020-06-16 23:01:41 xq that kinda ignores some stuff about the IRC spec
2020-06-16 23:01:45 xq and makes the *server* more modern
2020-06-16 23:02:04 xq as in: "you can login and have multiple clients connected, and you can send messages to offline users"
2020-06-16 23:02:05 yeti why not chat via rsyslogd? :-P
2020-06-16 23:02:24 xq echo "hi" | write $USER
2020-06-16 23:03:46 krixano The difference with email is that it's decentralized, and if a server is down, once it comes back up the email can be sent off to it, right?
2020-06-16 23:03:58 wgreenhouse xq: sounds like oragono
2020-06-16 23:04:08 wgreenhouse Or another ircv3ish server
2020-06-16 23:05:41 yeti rewrite it in rust!
2020-06-16 23:05:44 yeti :-P
2020-06-16 23:06:38 yeti (running gag... someone wanted to convince the haiku project to rewrite haiku in rust)
2020-06-16 23:06:52 krixano Is there like a list somewhere of these smtp/pop/imap extensions
2020-06-16 23:07:54 yeti if you want a compatible rewrite, you'll end up with chrappyserver n+1
2020-06-16 23:09:23 makeworld Can someone help me with this bug? Why would TLS reads randomly cause EOF errors?
2020-06-16 23:10:21 xq makeworld: i don't know go, but are you sure that you're reading everything correctly?
2020-06-16 23:10:25 makeworld Is my client sometimes reading before the server responds?
2020-06-16 23:10:38 makeworld Pretty sure, because it often works, with the same redirect points too
2020-06-16 23:10:53 makeworld So I figure it's a network thing bc it never consistently fails
2020-06-16 23:11:05 makeworld I think that must be it, that sometimes the read happens before the server response
2020-06-16 23:11:32 xq what i wanted to say is:
2020-06-16 23:11:37 xq usually the os syscalls have something like
2020-06-16 23:11:47 xq len = read(file, buffer.data, buffer.len)
2020-06-16 23:12:40 makeworld Yeah?
2020-06-16 23:12:56 makeworld I'm using Go, so it's just conn.Read
2020-06-16 23:13:13 makeworld https://golang.org/pkg/crypto/tls/#Conn.Read
2020-06-16 23:14:04 xq seems like the same interface
2020-06-16 23:14:16 xq also: "nice docs"
2020-06-16 23:16:16 makeworld Yeah it's been good
2020-06-16 23:16:57 xq well, the function is not really documented at all :D
2020-06-16 23:17:08 xq but i assume it returns the number of bytes read
2020-06-16 23:17:13 xq from the tls connection
2020-06-16 23:17:52 makeworld Yeah
2020-06-16 23:18:24 makeworld I think I might do a loop that will keep running read until it returns something, with a timeout
2020-06-16 23:19:20 xq yeah
2020-06-16 23:19:23 xq i usually have something like
2020-06-16 23:19:54 xq off=0 while(off < len) { l = read(bytes[off..], bytes.len - off) if(l == 0) return error; off += l }
2020-06-16 23:30:58 makeworld Wow
2020-06-16 23:31:18 makeworld I added a 10 second timeout, where when it gets an EOF error it just reads again and again until the timeout
2020-06-16 23:31:31 makeworld And now it just takes 10 seconds to tell me EOF
2020-06-16 23:31:35 makeworld Argh
2020-06-16 23:32:13 makeworld Something's not right
2020-06-17 00:13:27 companion_cube if people here are game for gemini-like messaging protocols…
2020-06-17 00:43:04 @tomasino ahh, yes, a freshly cleaned keyboard
2020-06-17 00:43:06 @tomasino lovesly
2020-06-17 00:44:17 ~tiwesdaeg mine is filthy
2020-06-17 00:44:21 ~tiwesdaeg you can come clean it
2020-06-17 00:45:56 @tomasino what a tedious task
2020-06-17 00:46:04 @tomasino i won't be doing it again this year, thank you
2020-06-17 00:46:05 @tomasino :P
2020-06-17 00:46:25 @tomasino https://www.instagram.com/p/CBg9OQuAFJQ/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link
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2020-06-17 02:38:16 `epochbot shouldn't have to retry on EOF
2020-06-17 02:38:29 `epochbot if the server is just being slow about sending data
2020-06-17 02:38:39 `epochbot then the read will just block until it gets the data
2020-06-17 02:38:52 `epochbot if you want to be doing other stuff instead of being read-blocked
2020-06-17 02:39:05 `epochbot then you can use something like epoll() or select()
2020-06-17 02:39:40 `epochbot (or you /could/ use non-blocking IO, but then you never get to sit still and wait on a block)
2020-06-17 02:39:40 @tomasino my latest journal entry has some big zip downloads, if anyone's working on client handling of big shit
2020-06-17 02:39:49 @tomasino nice test case
2020-06-17 03:23:29 makeworld `epochbot: yeah you're right
2020-06-17 03:23:46 makeworld Any idea why it's happening? It's pretty frustrating at this point
2020-06-17 03:24:39 makeworld Often, when trying a redirect it will just EOF
2020-06-17 03:24:52 makeworld Only redirects
2020-06-17 03:25:51 `epochbot it EOFs /before/ the redirect line?
2020-06-17 03:26:46 `epochbot which server is it?
2020-06-17 03:27:28 `epochbot would be weird if it was trying to write the redirect line, then closing the socket, but somehow the close on the socket wasn't flushing it.
2020-06-17 03:27:58 makeworld I'm actually not sure when the EOF occurs, I'll have to debug that. It just when I try and load the link that returns a redirect
2020-06-17 03:28:43 makeworld It occurs on the gemini.circumlunar.space/users/ page and on the client torture redirect test
2020-06-17 03:28:51 makeworld Not all the time, just sometimes
2020-06-17 03:29:09 makeworld This my client that is having the issue by the way
2020-06-17 03:29:40 `epochbot what is your client written in?
2020-06-17 03:29:51 `epochbot golang, nvm
2020-06-17 03:30:28 ⚡ `epochbot looks through code
2020-06-17 03:30:32 makeworld https://github.com/makeworld-the-better-one/go-gemini/blob/master/client.go#L172
2020-06-17 03:30:40 makeworld That's the relevant function
2020-06-17 03:30:58 makeworld I've never gotten an error for any other type of request
2020-06-17 03:31:38 makeworld I would think it's my actual URL handling code, which isn't public yet, but bc the redirects sometimes work I'm inclined to think it's something else, some network thing
2020-06-17 03:32:02 makeworld Thanks for checking it out
2020-06-17 03:34:24 `epochbot have an exact URL that'll sometimes cause it? I don't know where the torture redirect test is from gemini.circumlunar.space/users/
2020-06-17 03:35:14 `epochbot I see the users will have a redirect
2020-06-17 03:35:22 makeworld Oh it's, those were separate sites
2020-06-17 03:35:23 `epochbot from user/name to user/name/
2020-06-17 03:35:27 makeworld *it's not
2020-06-17 03:35:28 makeworld And yes
2020-06-17 03:35:31 `epochbot oh, ok.
2020-06-17 03:35:36 makeworld That's an example that caused it
2020-06-17 03:36:03 makeworld The torture test can be found on gemini.conman.org, and then find the redirect test, maybe number 22?
2020-06-17 03:36:36 makeworld I actually inherited this header code, this library is a fork
2020-06-17 03:36:49 makeworld I haven't changed it although maybe I need to...
2020-06-17 03:37:47 makeworld If it helps, it's like 179 that returns the EOF, it's the reading from the connection
2020-06-17 03:37:55 makeworld *line 179
2020-06-17 03:38:35 `epochbot oh. that's some weird code.
2020-06-17 03:38:44 `epochbot looks like it reads one byte at a time
2020-06-17 03:38:54 makeworld Yeah lol, I couldn't be bothered to change it
2020-06-17 03:39:02 makeworld Although it's pretty dumb
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2020-06-17 03:39:47 makeworld It's trying to get just the header, by reading a byte at a time until it sees \r\n
2020-06-17 03:40:22 makeworld That way the rest of the connection data is unread and the user of the library can read it at their own time
2020-06-17 03:40:30 `epochbot even though it is weird I don't see why it might sometimes not return before it EOFs out
2020-06-17 03:40:47 makeworld Yeah it's really strange
2020-06-17 03:40:54 makeworld Also I'm pretty sure there's no timeout
2020-06-17 03:41:15 makeworld So it's not EOFing out, it's literally that there's no data left I think
2020-06-17 03:41:30 `epochbot what value of byte is it returning with the err?
2020-06-17 03:41:43 `epochbot oh, derp.
2020-06-17 03:41:45 `epochbot I read that wrong.
2020-06-17 03:41:54 makeworld Either it's empty, or the server response isn't including \r\n
2020-06-17 03:41:55 `epochbot that's an empty string
2020-06-17 03:41:59 `epochbot yeah
2020-06-17 03:42:05 `epochbot I'm learning some golang atm. :P
2020-06-17 03:42:06 makeworld Which doesn't make sense bc it works sometimes
2020-06-17 03:42:13 makeworld It doesn't consistently Gail
2020-06-17 03:42:16 makeworld *fail
2020-06-17 03:42:19 makeworld Ha thanks!
2020-06-17 03:42:22 makeworld I like it
2020-06-17 03:42:59 `epochbot I consider it to be like... C# I guess, made by a company I don't care for, so it tastes funny.
2020-06-17 03:44:00 makeworld Bombadillo doesn't experience this, but the only difference in their code that I noticed was that they read all the data into memory first, then try and find the \r\n
2020-06-17 03:44:21 makeworld Yeah I'm no fan of Google, but the language is cool
2020-06-17 03:45:34 makeworld As far as I can tell, this doesn't happen with my server running Jetforce
2020-06-17 03:45:49 makeworld I tested that with the URL makeworld.gq/gemlog
2020-06-17 03:47:41 `epochbot lemme see if I can write a program to test a couple things.
2020-06-17 03:47:45 `epochbot I can a couple guesses
2020-06-17 03:48:16 makeworld Thanks, that'd be great! What are your guesses?
2020-06-17 03:48:20 `epochbot one is, the socket is closed very quickly preventing to server from sending it all somehow, not sure if that makes sense
2020-06-17 03:48:27 `epochbot but it should be easy to test.
2020-06-17 03:48:41 `epochbot make my own little program to read one byte, sleep(1), read another...
2020-06-17 03:48:45 makeworld Hmm
2020-06-17 03:48:57 companion_cube seems like `gemini://consensus.circumlunar.space` is not up to date
2020-06-17 03:49:08 companion_cube it has a \t in its response header…
2020-06-17 03:49:08 `epochbot like, maybe the socket gets shutdown and something is clearing the buffer
2020-06-17 03:49:39 makeworld I'm going to have to go soon, but I appreciate this thanks. Could you PM me or @ me if you figure something out?
2020-06-17 03:49:43 `epochbot or it could be golang has a bug in its socket library where when it receives stuff about a socket closing, it marks it as EOF
2020-06-17 03:49:53 `epochbot but neither of those seem likely
2020-06-17 03:50:01 `epochbot yeah
2020-06-17 03:50:11 makeworld And it wouldn't explain why Bombadillo doesn't experience this
2020-06-17 03:50:26 `epochbot well, bombadillo reads the whole thing all at once, right?
2020-06-17 03:50:32 makeworld Yeah
2020-06-17 03:50:49 makeworld But theoretically that should be the same as reading one byte at a time
2020-06-17 03:50:55 `epochbot so it probably gets all of the data before go could possible mark it as eof
2020-06-17 03:51:06 makeworld Hmm
2020-06-17 03:51:29 `epochbot between each read it might have the chance to get the socket shutdown and maybe mark it as EOF
2020-06-17 03:51:44 `epochbot I'm not sure if anyone would write socket library that way
2020-06-17 03:51:54 `epochbot or if it'd stay un-noticed long enough for us to find it
2020-06-17 03:52:02 makeworld Shouldn't it save the data for future reads though? Not EOF on close?
2020-06-17 03:52:10 `epochbot you'd think
2020-06-17 03:52:22 makeworld Yeah okay, I'd be very surprised if that's it
2020-06-17 03:52:37 makeworld It would have happened to someone before
2020-06-17 03:52:44 makeworld Famous last words lol
2020-06-17 03:52:54 `epochbot it might just be that someone figured "the socket is closed, we don't need this buffer anymore..." and tosses it out
2020-06-17 03:53:12 makeworld Yikes
2020-06-17 03:53:34 `epochbot I'd have to either test with some go code or look at the source
2020-06-17 03:53:41 companion_cube https://github.com/c-cube/gemini-client just wrote this tiny thing
2020-06-17 03:53:52 companion_cube doesn't do TOFU
2020-06-17 03:54:10 companion_cube (or validation, for what it's worth, really)
2020-06-17 03:54:47 `epochbot it might not be a socket bug, and might be a TLS thing
2020-06-17 03:55:09 `epochbot so it would be less likely to get noticed
2020-06-17 03:55:48 `epochbot reading a TLS socket that has been shutdown might not happen often in the "real world"
2020-06-17 03:57:29 makeworld https://www.reddit.com/r/golang/comments/byws8v/reading_from_an_unresponsive_tcp_client_gives/
2020-06-17 03:57:33 makeworld This might be it...
2020-06-17 03:58:42 makeworld Something was read and the end was reached
2020-06-17 04:00:30 `epochbot you might want to change the code still return the read-so-far data when it reaches EOF
2020-06-17 04:01:00 `epochbot nah, probably not.
2020-06-17 04:03:30 makeworld That's what I was thinking
2020-06-17 04:03:41 makeworld Or at least add a check like that thread mentions
2020-06-17 04:03:56 makeworld Only handle EOF errors of zero bytes were read
2020-06-17 04:04:01 makeworld *if zero
2020-06-17 04:05:57 `epochbot hrm. maybe it is reading one byte and returning EOF at the same time?
2020-06-17 04:06:15 `epochbot that'd be a bit weird, but kind of makes sense.
2020-06-17 04:06:58 `epochbot yer, if bytes read is more than 0, append, if hasSuffix, return the line, if EOF, return the error
2020-06-17 04:07:52 `epochbot it kind of makes sense that a read() that reads the last of the bytes might also say "hey, we read the last of it. so here's an EOF while we're at it."
2020-06-17 04:08:26 ⚡ `epochbot checks documentation https://golang.org/pkg/io/#Reader
2020-06-17 04:09:23 `epochbot "When Read encounters an error or end-of-file condition after successfully reading n > 0 bytes, it returns the number of bytes read. It may return the (non-nil) error from the same call or return the error (and n == 0) from a subsequent call."
2020-06-17 04:09:27 `epochbot that seems to be what it does
2020-06-17 04:09:45 `epochbot "An instance of this general case is that a Reader returning a non-zero number of bytes at the end of the input stream may return either err == EOF or err == nil. The next Read should return 0, EOF."
2020-06-17 04:09:53 `epochbot wew, golang is just weird :P
2020-06-17 04:10:38 makeworld Huh
2020-06-17 04:10:44 makeworld Okay, check the latest commit
2020-06-17 04:10:55 makeworld It seems to be maybe better? But it doesn't fix the issue
2020-06-17 04:11:03 makeworld I still get EOFs sometimes
2020-06-17 04:11:24 makeworld Even though now it makes sure that it only returns an error if no bytes were read
2020-06-17 04:11:33 makeworld Thanks for digging through the docs
2020-06-17 04:12:08 `epochbot if err == io.EOF && n <= 0 {
2020-06-17 04:12:08 `epochbot return []byte{}, err
2020-06-17 04:12:08 `epochbot } else if err != nil {
2020-06-17 04:12:08 `epochbot return []byte{}, err
2020-06-17 04:12:09 `epochbot }
2020-06-17 04:12:15 makeworld Yes
2020-06-17 04:12:31 `epochbot alright, consider the case that it returns 1 read byte, AND EOF
2020-06-17 04:12:31 makeworld So it only returns the EOF if there's actually no bytes left
2020-06-17 04:12:46 `epochbot it fails the first test because n > 0
2020-06-17 04:12:55 `epochbot then the elseif only checks that there's an error
2020-06-17 04:12:58 makeworld Oh I'm dumb
2020-06-17 04:12:59 `epochbot which is EOF
2020-06-17 04:13:02 `epochbot no worries.
2020-06-17 04:13:08 makeworld Thanks lol, let me fix that
2020-06-17 04:14:20 `epochbot I'm about to go cook some dinner.
2020-06-17 04:14:52 makeworld I think it's fixed!!
2020-06-17 04:15:15 makeworld Thanks so much!
2020-06-17 04:15:23 `epochbot no problem. :)
2020-06-17 04:15:45 `epochbot that was good bug hunt.
2020-06-17 04:15:46 makeworld It was annoying the hell out of me
2020-06-17 04:15:49 makeworld :)
2020-06-17 04:16:20 makeworld If you like terminal clients, you can know you made mine work when it comes out :)
2020-06-17 04:18:46 jan finally made a webpage for ncgopher: https://jan.bio/software/ncgopher/
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2020-06-17 08:02:47 yeti http://yeti.freeshell.org/tmp/20200617-080028-UTC__wider_than_browser_but_no_scrollbar.png
2020-06-17 08:03:11 yeti ...on FF-68.9.0esr (64-bit)
2020-06-17 08:04:00 xq heyoh
2020-06-17 08:04:06 yeti _o/
2020-06-17 08:04:10 xq makeworld, it looks like your problem fixed? \o/
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2020-06-17 09:40:41 xq hey
2020-06-17 09:40:59 xq i'm thinking about pre-filling the Kristall favourites with some "gemini starting points"
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2020-06-17 11:00:54 xq new feature in kristall: https://mq32.de/public/kristall-05.mp4
2020-06-17 11:00:59 xq cross-protocol redirection warning
2020-06-17 11:02:12 paper nice, will it be enabled by default?
2020-06-17 11:03:23 xq yes
2020-06-17 11:03:34 xq the default will be "warn me for cross-host or cross-scheme"
2020-06-17 11:03:43 xq but you can change that to whatever you want
2020-06-17 11:03:49 xq including "always ask" and "never ask"
2020-06-17 11:04:40 paper at first, I thought it would be annoying, but then I remembered that I was closely watching the color of links and sometimes clicked on a http link when I didn't want to. I love it.
2020-06-17 11:05:18 xq hehe
2020-06-17 11:05:23 xq yeah i really love the link coloring
2020-06-17 11:05:31 xq if you find it annoying: give every link the same color ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
2020-06-17 11:05:42 xq but i really find it interesting and it allows me to see the interwebs :D
2020-06-17 11:06:08 paper I had it almost the same, just a bit different shade, that's why
2020-06-17 11:08:26 paper xq: any plans on integrating gus in the url bar
2020-06-17 11:09:04 xq 😱
2020-06-17 11:09:59 ⚡ paper sees a white square
2020-06-17 11:10:06 xq it's a screaming emojo
2020-06-17 11:10:24 paper oh
2020-06-17 11:12:14 ⚡ xq is searching kristall with GUS
2020-06-17 11:12:15 xq found this:
2020-06-17 11:12:16 xq gemini://geddit.pitr.ca/s/26
2020-06-17 12:45:26 ~tiwesdaeg good morning!
2020-06-17 12:46:48 ⚡ tiwesdaeg goes to recompile kristall
2020-06-17 12:47:08 xq hello tiwesdaeg
2020-06-17 12:49:25 ⚡ xq just found a way to have better icon colors!
2020-06-17 12:49:46 @tomasino uh-oh
2020-06-17 12:49:58 xq white icons on dark theme
2020-06-17 12:49:59 @tomasino well, i reinstalled, but now i can't get into astrobotany
2020-06-17 12:50:01 ~tiwesdaeg in the browser widgets or the logo itself?
2020-06-17 12:50:05 xq black icons on light theme
2020-06-17 12:50:12 xq widgets
2020-06-17 12:50:13 ~tiwesdaeg ahh
2020-06-17 12:50:22 xq and i want to provide a "colorful" theme as well
2020-06-17 12:50:27 @tomasino it builds on ubuntu 18.04 without any tweaks again. so yay!
2020-06-17 12:50:29 ~tiwesdaeg already pushed?
2020-06-17 12:50:33 @tomasino but something seems weird with client certs
2020-06-17 12:50:33 xq nope
2020-06-17 12:50:38 xq this evening
2020-06-17 12:50:48 xq tomasino: damn. i started to set up github actions btw!
2020-06-17 12:51:00 @tomasino awesome
2020-06-17 12:51:00 ~tiwesdaeg I did not build any of yesterday's changes here at home
2020-06-17 12:51:09 ~tiwesdaeg I was doing everything from my work computer
2020-06-17 12:51:19 xq https://github.com/MasterQ32/kristall/actions/runs/138266036
2020-06-17 12:51:37 xq tomasino: have to check that out later, first i need to work :D
2020-06-17 12:52:12 ~tiwesdaeg next up, packaging!
2020-06-17 12:52:43 ~tiwesdaeg I wonder how hard it would be to contribute to the aur
2020-06-17 12:53:35 xq i would build an AppImage before doing packaging
2020-06-17 12:53:41 xq makes installation for all linux users way easier
2020-06-17 12:53:49 xq and also non-coders can use it then :)
2020-06-17 12:56:43 ~tiwesdaeg finally sitting down to read solderpunk's post from yesterday
2020-06-17 12:57:00 ~tiwesdaeg do we have any gemini feed reading clients?
2020-06-17 12:57:20 ~tiwesdaeg I know there are a couple of aggregation sites
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2020-06-17 12:57:57 ~tiwesdaeg hey solderpunk, was just talking about you
2020-06-17 12:57:59 xq hey solderpunk o/
2020-06-17 12:58:19 xq <tiwesdaeg> do we have any gemini feed reading clients?
2020-06-17 12:58:38 xq I want to have Kristall 0.5 an Atom feed reader :D
2020-06-17 12:58:44 xq *full feature suie*
2020-06-17 12:58:47 solderpunk Hey!
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2020-06-17 12:59:08 solderpunk I don't think we do yet, unless you count indirectly via a local CAPCOM install.
2020-06-17 12:59:43 paper hi
2020-06-17 13:00:10 ~tiwesdaeg it would make your microblogging concept easier to pick up
2020-06-17 13:00:53 solderpunk It certainly would!
2020-06-17 13:01:17 solderpunk I don't have time to code half of the things I have ideas for, sadly, I hope somebody else has the energy to do it all eventually.
2020-06-17 13:01:27 solderpunk Hi paper
2020-06-17 13:01:41 ~tiwesdaeg with the amount of clients we have out there, someone will probably pick it up
2020-06-17 13:02:58 paper I am planning to make a simple rss/atom reader using recutils as a backend, a gemini interface is planned too, but idk when I will start
2020-06-17 13:04:59 ~tiwesdaeg xq: the certificate manager looks nice
2020-06-17 13:05:14 xq thanks!
2020-06-17 13:05:19 xq it's not finished yet
2020-06-17 13:05:29 xq solderpunk motivated me to also add a host/url restriction
2020-06-17 13:05:34 xq where you can do something like
2020-06-17 13:06:06 xq gemini://astrobotany.mozz.us/app*
2020-06-17 13:06:08 xq oh and …
2020-06-17 13:06:13 xq i broke client certificates for now
2020-06-17 13:06:22 xq i've built Kristall against the new spec
2020-06-17 13:06:24 xq not the current one
2020-06-17 13:06:25 xq :D
2020-06-17 13:06:30 ~tiwesdaeg hehe
2020-06-17 13:06:51 ~tiwesdaeg I really should read the new spec
2020-06-17 13:07:14 xq the client certificate stuff fits perfectly in Kristalls way of working
2020-06-17 13:08:05 solderpunk Not too much changed, tiwesdaeg
2020-06-17 13:08:11 paper how should I tell molly brown that this directory contains text/plain files without changing their extension
2020-06-17 13:08:15 ~tiwesdaeg one interface note: drop down selection menus have clear brackgrounds, making the text hard to read
2020-06-17 13:08:43 ~tiwesdaeg like when choosing Dark or Light themes
2020-06-17 13:08:53 xq interesting
2020-06-17 13:08:57 xq > If another * is found in the same line, it is not a bullet.
2020-06-17 13:09:04 ⚡ xq is a bit confused about that email
2020-06-17 13:11:53 paper someone probably doesn't understand the goal of gemini
2020-06-17 13:12:37 paper solderpunk, I noticed you added a link to my list of mirrors on gemini.circumlunar.space, thanks :)
2020-06-17 13:14:09 solderpunk No worries!
2020-06-17 13:14:17 solderpunk paper, what are their extensions?
2020-06-17 13:14:28 ~tiwesdaeg * I like &
2020-06-17 13:14:33 ~tiwesdaeg * I also like *
2020-06-17 13:14:42 paper well, they are scripts, so they don't have an extension
2020-06-17 13:14:51 solderpunk Ah.
2020-06-17 13:14:53 @tomasino sounds like a challenge for inline stylers
2020-06-17 13:15:07 solderpunk So, right now it serves them up as application/octet or something, right?
2020-06-17 13:15:14 @tomasino *\s doesn't start an emphasis. Easy enough
2020-06-17 13:15:32 @tomasino * this isn't bold *
2020-06-17 13:15:34 @tomasino *this is bold*
2020-06-17 13:15:41 paper yes, application/octet-stream
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2020-06-17 13:17:03 paper the * proposal would also mean clients would have to inspect the whole line before knowing what type of line it is - madness
2020-06-17 13:17:10 paper it couldn't be more wrong imo
2020-06-17 13:17:50 ~tiwesdaeg gemini://tilde.pink/~tiwesdaeg/test.gmi
2020-06-17 13:18:19 solderpunk paper, there is currently no way to override that, but there certainly should be.
2020-06-17 13:18:37 solderpunk I haven't announced it yet, but Molly Brown now reads .molly files, which work much like Apache's .htaccess files.
2020-06-17 13:18:46 solderpunk So you can set per-directory overrides on some settings.
2020-06-17 13:18:53 solderpunk Like the lang parameter.
2020-06-17 13:18:59 paper oh, nice
2020-06-17 13:19:14 solderpunk So, a way to control MIME types using this should be pretty easy.
2020-06-17 13:19:18 solderpunk I will try to add it soon.
2020-06-17 13:19:52 @tomasino woo molly
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2020-06-17 13:20:15 paper I will work around it for now
2020-06-17 13:20:35 ~tiwesdaeg welcome back julienxx
2020-06-17 13:21:19 paper solderpunk, there is a typo in molly: Temporaray failure in handler.go:112
2020-06-17 13:23:09 solderpunk That's for temporary failures which might become permanent later. They're temporarily temporary, or "temporaray" for short.
2020-06-17 13:23:19 solderpunk Just kidding :p I fixed it, thanks.
2020-06-17 13:23:50 paper xD I thought for a moment I would learn a new word
2020-06-17 13:28:25 solderpunk How is everybody feeling about Gemini these days?
2020-06-17 13:28:36 xq \o/
2020-06-17 13:28:47 solderpunk I am really aware that mailing list traffic seems to have dropped quite a bit since I started trying to be a bit more assertive about the direction of the project.
2020-06-17 13:29:07 solderpunk I'm worried it might be driving people away
2020-06-17 13:29:33 solderpunk Even Sean has been quiet lately, and Sean is never quiet :p
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2020-06-17 13:31:52 xq i think the direction is good
2020-06-17 13:32:20 paper I only started getting into it, but I love it. Some proposals were trying to build the web again, so I am glad you said you will not support it.
2020-06-17 13:34:13 solderpunk Glad to hear it :)
2020-06-17 13:35:33 ~tiwesdaeg I have mostly dropped my own gopher focus at this point
2020-06-17 13:36:08 ~tiwesdaeg I feel like gemini is mature enough to fulfill my small internet needs
2020-06-17 13:37:26 dkibi slightly off topic question: when did the gopher space become a thing (again) I remember looking at gopher in ~2007 and there was not a ton going on back then
2020-06-17 13:37:31 solderpunk Even gladder! :)
2020-06-17 13:37:41 solderpunk It was much quieter then.
2020-06-17 13:38:08 @tomasino it's been on a big growth spurt since 2016-7, it feels
2020-06-17 13:38:16 solderpunk Yeah.
2020-06-17 13:38:27 solderpunk I was going to say maybe 2015 because I don't know how much earlier it started than when I turned up.
2020-06-17 13:38:46 solderpunk But it's definitely been heating up for the past 3 years.
2020-06-17 13:39:07 solderpunk I think it's only in the past 2 years or so that non-trivial activity has been happening outside of SDF.
2020-06-17 13:39:24 mhj Heyo all~ I think tomasino single-handedly revived gopher with his powers of suggestion
2020-06-17 13:39:32 solderpunk With people like me, Tomasino, cat, jynx and others migrating from SDF to our own hosts.
2020-06-17 13:39:54 solderpunk Which all happened within a few months of each other, IIRC.
2020-06-17 13:40:07 solderpunk I wish I'd documented that time period better.
2020-06-17 13:41:16 dkibi do you know if GUS also does an "gemini" archive?
2020-06-17 13:42:09 solderpunk archive.org style?
2020-06-17 13:43:08 @tomasino :D
2020-06-17 13:43:19 ⚡ tomasino wiggles his sorcerer noodles
2020-06-17 13:43:28 @tomasino you will make a gopher hole.... ooooOOOOoooo
2020-06-17 13:43:37 dkibi yeah
2020-06-17 13:44:09 solderpunk It doesn't. I'm not sure if it will. Archiving is kind of contentious in the Small Internet community.
2020-06-17 13:44:22 dkibi I see
2020-06-17 13:44:28 solderpunk I wrong a long pontificating phlog post about it once.
2020-06-17 13:44:33 solderpunk Like I do.
2020-06-17 13:44:38 solderpunk *wrote
2020-06-17 13:44:50 @tomasino yeah, i remember that one
2020-06-17 13:44:53 @tomasino that was great
2020-06-17 13:45:27 @tomasino you also kinda took a stand on it with circumlunar's right to be forgotten policy
2020-06-17 13:45:42 @tomasino i remember the first time someone pulled that trigger... that was a good phlog of yours too
2020-06-17 13:46:30 @tomasino the really important question for all you geminauts... how many of you have listened to Kesha since my phlog last night?
2020-06-17 13:46:34 @tomasino er, gemlog
2020-06-17 13:46:38 @tomasino all this gopher talk!
2020-06-17 13:46:48 solderpunk Haha.
2020-06-17 13:46:55 solderpunk Let us not speak of the Old World here! :p
2020-06-17 13:47:37 companion_cube for fear of raptors?
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2020-06-17 13:48:03 ℹ Mode #gemini [+o julienxx] by ChanServ
2020-06-17 13:48:11 solderpunk I hadn't seen it yet, Tomasino.
2020-06-17 13:48:11 companion_cube solderpunk: btw where is the weapon I have to fire to get admitted to the red consensus??
2020-06-17 13:48:40 solderpunk I'm so happy Christina posted those questions, and even happier people have found them, and are replying, and the thing is spreading via word of mouth.
2020-06-17 13:48:53 makeworld Oh yeah, I just found those last night
2020-06-17 13:49:06 solderpunk It's such a relief amidst all the arguing about uploading and applications and stuff to see good old fashioned plain text person-to-person stuff is happening.
2020-06-17 13:49:09 mhj But seriously, good day all. Hope everyone is doing well.
2020-06-17 13:50:01 companion_cube solderpunk: you could start a project more ambitious than gemini, call it apollo 13
2020-06-17 13:50:12 companion_cube and divert their efforts there
2020-06-17 13:50:21 solderpunk companion_cube: You'll have to ask tfurrows! Be careful injecting anything into your arm :p
2020-06-17 13:51:36 solderpunk I am not opposed to more - or less! - ambitious projects. I just think it will take us a few years to really know for sure whether Gemini has turned out to be too powerful, or not powerful enough, and in precisely *what ways*, so we can make the minimal required changes.
2020-06-17 13:52:03 makeworld Yes, with time
2020-06-17 13:52:25 makeworld I hope Natalie updates the GUS repo
2020-06-17 13:52:38 makeworld I emailed her a few days ago about it, we'll see I guess
2020-06-17 13:52:48 companion_cube solderpunk: I'll just avoid boarding asteroids
2020-06-17 13:52:55 dkibi one thing that I never encountered before is people sending me emails about my (imho not particularly insightful) writing
2020-06-17 13:53:01 companion_cube ahah nice
2020-06-17 13:53:13 companion_cube and I got to connect with my super basic client to dkibi's site
2020-06-17 13:53:21 companion_cube (first ocaml client?)
2020-06-17 13:53:37 solderpunk dkibi: You are not the first person to say that!
2020-06-17 13:53:53 solderpunk It used to be such a normal thing, even on the web.
2020-06-17 13:54:04 solderpunk I am surprised people are so shocked to have it happen to them, but everybody seems to really enjoy it.
2020-06-17 13:54:25 solderpunk It should definitely be a thing in Geminispace.
2020-06-17 13:54:30 solderpunk Eat your Weeties!
2020-06-17 13:55:06 @tomasino it makes my day every time i get an email
2020-06-17 13:55:13 solderpunk https://tildegit.org/solderpunk/alphonse - this will soon be a proof-of-concept for the "container client" idea.
2020-06-17 13:55:38 @tomasino oh, i read your gemlog finally. i loved it. Such a neat approach
2020-06-17 13:55:38 solderpunk Just going to copy AV-98 and then rip out huge chunks of code.
2020-06-17 13:55:48 solderpunk I *love* ripping out huge chunks of code! :D
2020-06-17 13:55:55 solderpunk Yay!!!
2020-06-17 13:56:22 companion_cube I should make my own server, at some point
2020-06-17 13:56:26 companion_cube with a sqlite base or something
2020-06-17 13:56:49 makeworld Oh you're going to make the gemtainer? Nice
2020-06-17 13:57:04 makeworld Also, should my TOFU db go in the cache, config, or data directory
2020-06-17 13:57:21 makeworld I'm leaning towards cache
2020-06-17 13:57:43 solderpunk I think cache too.
2020-06-17 13:57:48 xq companion_cube: checkout github.com/MasterQ32/gurl
2020-06-17 13:57:58 solderpunk Sorry, makeworld, which client is yours? I can't keep track of everybody...
2020-06-17 13:58:06 companion_cube ahah fun
2020-06-17 13:58:29 companion_cube mine is https://github.com/c-cube/gemini-client
2020-06-17 13:58:35 companion_cube but it's super super basic
2020-06-17 13:59:00 solderpunk No need for "but", super super basic is totally orthodox here :)
2020-06-17 13:59:09 makeworld solderpunk: Unreleased ;)
2020-06-17 13:59:16 solderpunk Ah, fair enough!
2020-06-17 13:59:22 companion_cube I mean, 80% of the complexity is in the SSL stuff
2020-06-17 14:01:05 solderpunk That's my biggest regret, perhaps. Not putting in TLS, I still think that was right. But I honestly thought existing libraries would make it pretty easy.
2020-06-17 14:01:14 solderpunk I didn't expect that so many TLS libraries would be kind of garbage.
2020-06-17 14:02:32 companion_cube well I just used openSSL bindings
2020-06-17 14:02:41 companion_cube and the whole certificate thing is todo :D
2020-06-17 14:05:59 dacav has quit (Ping timeout: 120 seconds)
2020-06-17 14:06:40 notandinus has quit (The TLS connection was non-properly terminated.)
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2020-06-17 14:30:40 rak companion_cube: I've been working on an ocaml client for a few weeks now. https://tildegit.org/rak/leda
2020-06-17 14:31:04 rak companion_cube: I wish I could spend more time on it, but I have a camera ready deadline on Friday that is sucking up all of my time.
2020-06-17 14:31:19 companion_cube ah well
2020-06-17 14:31:30 companion_cube there's enough space for the two of us
2020-06-17 14:31:34 rak I just use ocaml-tls and conduit
2020-06-17 14:31:53 companion_cube yours looks a lot more advanced
2020-06-17 14:32:08 companion_cube I just went for `ssl`
2020-06-17 14:32:17 rak I'm always happy to see when others have good taste in programming languages :-) I wanted to write mine in Standard ML, but it definitely doesn't have TLS bindings
2020-06-17 14:33:43 xq solderpunk: I'm sad that TLS is such a can of legacy garbage
2020-06-17 14:33:46 companion_cube well I use OCaml at work and it's the language I'm the most proficient with
2020-06-17 14:33:50 xq it's better with 1.2 and 1.3
2020-06-17 14:33:55 xq but still so much stuff
2020-06-17 14:34:02 companion_cube took me a bit over an hour to get this working last nig
2020-06-17 14:34:04 companion_cube ht
2020-06-17 14:53:59 makeworld Client is almost ready!
2020-06-17 14:54:20 makeworld Simple history is the major feature left before I feel good to launch
2020-06-17 14:54:30 makeworld Oh, and the help menu
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2020-06-17 15:30:43 solderpunk 1.3 is way better, regarding legacy garbage.
2020-06-17 15:31:11 companion_cube yesterday's discussions make me want to make minimalistic versions of bittorrent and IRC… halp
2020-06-17 15:32:07 xq solderpunk: true. but!
2020-06-17 15:32:12 xq one thing…
2020-06-17 15:32:23 xq we could also restrict gemini to *exactly one* cypher
2020-06-17 15:32:32 companion_cube rot13!
2020-06-17 15:32:37 companion_cube it's the simplest one to implement
2020-06-17 15:32:40 xq double-rot13 please
2020-06-17 15:33:16 solderpunk Hmm.
2020-06-17 15:33:18 makeworld Haha
2020-06-17 15:33:37 makeworld To be serious, I would be against restricting ciphers
2020-06-17 15:33:48 xq wireguard did this
2020-06-17 15:33:50 makeworld Much easier to just set a TLS version and let the libraries work it out
2020-06-17 15:34:02 xq and they have blazing fast negotiation with near-zero overhead
2020-06-17 15:34:14 xq client tells server: "i can speak level X"
2020-06-17 15:34:21 xq server tells client: "i can speak level Y"
2020-06-17 15:34:37 xq and negotiation of cypher is done, because they use crypto version min(X,Y)
2020-06-17 15:34:54 makeworld Okay, but TLS already has a way of doing things
2020-06-17 15:35:03 makeworld I don't think it makes sense to reinvent or restrict it
2020-06-17 15:36:04 ⚡ makeworld afk
2020-06-17 15:36:09 solderpunk I'm not sure the cipher selection is the biggest overhead in TLS?
2020-06-17 15:36:20 xq it's at least a part of
2020-06-17 15:36:25 xq not sure about everything though
2020-06-17 15:36:56 solderpunk Whether or not AES or CHACHA20 will be faster/more energy efficient depends upon the processor, and I think it would be nice to let machines use what's best for them.
2020-06-17 15:37:18 solderpunk I *do* think we should have a strong convention of not using 2048bit RSA keys.
2020-06-17 15:37:36 xq yeah i need to change that for my migrated version of gemini://random-project.net
2020-06-17 15:37:38 solderpunk The certs are *huge* compared to other options.
2020-06-17 15:37:56 solderpunk ONE DAY I will make a post analysing all the certs in my AV-98 TOFU cache.
2020-06-17 15:38:05 solderpunk Showing the different sizes that are in the wild.
2020-06-17 15:38:15 solderpunk Most of them are much larger than the few smallest ones.
2020-06-17 15:38:28 solderpunk Somebody with an .eu domain has a tiny little ECDSA cert.
2020-06-17 15:38:36 solderpunk It's so cute and smol.
2020-06-17 15:38:45 companion_cube is it really that bad to use persistent connections, solderpunk?
2020-06-17 15:38:51 acdw You should have a cert hall of fame!
2020-06-17 15:38:54 companion_cube for me the http-like "content size" is incredibly simple
2020-06-17 15:40:04 solderpunk It might not be "that bad", but it's definitely *less* simple than what we have now. And I think Gopher proves that what we have now is workable in the real world.
2020-06-17 15:41:50 companion_cube I'm not sure it's less simple if it means you can use any cert :)
2020-06-17 15:42:47 solderpunk Generating a small cert is not any more difficult than generating a large one.
2020-06-17 15:43:18 solderpunk Nice tools for generating certs would be a good thing to have.
2020-06-17 15:43:54 solderpunk Setting up certbot looks easy next to wrangling `openssl` with an endless string of options after it.
2020-06-17 15:44:03 solderpunk But we can certainly improve on that.
2020-06-17 15:45:30 acdw Can anyone actually point me to a resource about generating a cert? Like a client cert? It makes little sense to me.
2020-06-17 15:46:08 solderpunk I do plan to write one some day.
2020-06-17 15:46:18 solderpunk It is kind of a big gap in our documentation.
2020-06-17 15:47:03 acdw :) I await it eagerly
2020-06-17 15:47:11 solderpunk There's nothing special about a "client cert", though, it's exactly the same kind of object as a "server cert".
2020-06-17 15:47:30 acdw From the openssl documentation, it's something like `openssl req ...` then `openssl <something>..`
2020-06-17 15:47:32 companion_cube I have no idea how it works either
2020-06-17 15:48:15 solderpunk Ha, that's exactly the kind of tool I want to replace :p
2020-06-17 15:48:30 solderpunk Based on a quick peek I think Go's standard library can do it.
2020-06-17 15:49:27 solderpunk It will happen soon. I have two weeks of summer holiday coming up. I plan to spend one doing absolutely nothing related to Gemini, and one doing a *lot* of stuff related to Gemini. :)
2020-06-17 15:49:48 xq rsa key: openssl req -new -x509 -nodes -newkey rsa:4096 -keyout key.pem -out cert.pem -days 1
2020-06-17 15:49:58 solderpunk 4096!
2020-06-17 15:49:58 xq > openssl req -new -x509 -nodes -newkey ec:<(openssl ecparam -name secp384r1) -keyout key.pem -out cert.pem -days 1
2020-06-17 15:50:01 xq ECDSA
2020-06-17 15:50:22 companion_cube how do you even learn that kind of horror
2020-06-17 15:50:32 xq "stackoverflow" ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
2020-06-17 15:50:35 xq and RTFM
2020-06-17 15:52:02 solderpunk tiwesdaeg: Added your new Atom feed to CAPCOM, thanks!
2020-06-17 15:52:16 xq i need to setup your atom gen
2020-06-17 15:52:31 xq but i don't want pip or even python in my server
2020-06-17 15:52:37 ⚡ xq needs to learn containers
2020-06-17 15:52:58 solderpunk Nobody needs to learn containers :p
2020-06-17 15:53:28 solderpunk It would be less work to write your own feed generator in some other language, surely.
2020-06-17 15:53:34 xq probably :D
2020-06-17 15:53:52 @ben why is the openssl cli so fricken Bad
2020-06-17 15:53:59 acdw xq: thanks! And then when passing it to a server, they'll need both the key and the cert, yes?
2020-06-17 15:54:01 xq because it's oooold
2020-06-17 15:54:04 xq yes
2020-06-17 15:54:04 acdw I prolly should RTFM as well
2020-06-17 15:54:36 companion_cube if anyone has a good comprehensive introduction to all the terms openssl uses..
2020-06-17 15:55:14 ~tiwesdaeg awesome! thanks solderpunk
2020-06-17 15:55:16 acdw https://www.openssl.org/docs/manmaster/man1/openssl.html is the man page. guess it's not an 'introduction' per se...
2020-06-17 15:55:36 solderpunk acdw: Hmm, your question is ambiguous to me - when you say "passing it to the server", what do you mean?
2020-06-17 15:55:42 ~tiwesdaeg just trying to contribute a little non-technical media to the gemosphere
2020-06-17 15:55:48 solderpunk A client sends its certificate to the server, NOT the matching private key.
2020-06-17 15:55:53 solderpunk tiwesdaeg: Sorely needed!
2020-06-17 15:55:55 acdw solderpunk: does your feed generator still go off mtime? I sftp'd my whole site to circumlunar and it floated to the top of CAPCOM
2020-06-17 15:56:21 companion_cube acdw: yeah that's too bad; there was a sweet post on ASN1.1 recently that made it much less frightening
2020-06-17 15:56:43 solderpunk Hmm, it shouldn't use the filesystem time if you have a timestamp in the filename.
2020-06-17 15:57:02 acdw solderpunk re: server: When I generate a client cert, I need to pass it to the server to verify it's me, right? And OH you just answered the question I think
2020-06-17 15:57:22 acdw Also yes -- you're right! Just realized that only my pages without a timestamp in the name floated to the top
2020-06-17 15:57:31 acdw is there a headslap emoji I can use on myself?
2020-06-17 15:57:34 acdw oof, sorry
2020-06-17 15:57:59 ⚡ acdw runs off to read tiwesdaeg's content.
2020-06-17 15:58:12 ~tiwesdaeg it's not using my filename dates
2020-06-17 15:58:34 ~tiwesdaeg they all start with like '20200617-'
2020-06-17 15:58:56 acdw companion_cube: I'd love to read that if you could share!
2020-06-17 15:59:05 solderpunk It only recognises God-fearing YYYY-MM-DD timestamps :p
2020-06-17 15:59:18 solderpunk I really didn't feel like coding in fifty different variations.
2020-06-17 15:59:22 ~tiwesdaeg that's a horrible waste of bytes
2020-06-17 15:59:26 ~tiwesdaeg haha
2020-06-17 15:59:43 solderpunk And then worrying about ambiguous cases where the month and day could be American style or normal style.
2020-06-17 15:59:46 ~tiwesdaeg so, if I change the file, that will change the feed date
2020-06-17 15:59:55 solderpunk So you do it the ISO-whatever way or not at all :p
2020-06-17 16:00:01 ~tiwesdaeg american style is stupid
2020-06-17 16:00:22 acdw As an American: I agree 100%
2020-06-17 16:00:25 ~tiwesdaeg I've been forced to use military style for the past 20 years, 17JUN20
2020-06-17 16:00:30 ~tiwesdaeg or 17JUN2020
2020-06-17 16:00:33 companion_cube acdw: https://letsencrypt.org/docs/a-warm-welcome-to-asn1-and-der/
2020-06-17 16:00:42 acdw Thanks, companion_cube!
2020-06-17 16:00:50 ~tiwesdaeg removes all ambiguity with the day and month
2020-06-17 16:00:59 companion_cube of course now it makes me salty that protobuf & co were ever invented
2020-06-17 16:01:09 acdw I do really like that style and how compact it is, though it doesn't sort well
2020-06-17 16:01:21 acdw I might make that my heading date style tho
2020-06-17 16:01:40 companion_cube I like rfc3339
2020-06-17 16:02:26 acdw Reading RFCs is maybe my new favorite past time
2020-06-17 16:02:51 acdw THAT would be a great gemini portal application -- the RFC spec
2020-06-17 16:02:57 acdw s*
2020-06-17 16:03:15 solderpunk I'd frequent the hell out of a nice cafe that had big, nicely-bound hard copies of all the RFCs for you to browse.
2020-06-17 16:03:27 companion_cube ah yes, RFCs should go very well over text!
2020-06-17 16:03:27 solderpunk But acdw, you're right, that *would* be handy.
2020-06-17 16:03:48 companion_cube a socat café
2020-06-17 16:06:22 ~tiwesdaeg can I just drink the coffee at that cafe?
2020-06-17 16:07:24 acdw The cafe would also be quite nice
2020-06-17 16:07:31 ⚡ tiwesdaeg is putting off his bike ride and sipping coffee
2020-06-17 16:07:40 acdw mmm I wish I had coffee rn
2020-06-17 16:08:03 acdw solderpunk does circumlunar.space userdirs have CGI capability?
2020-06-17 16:08:42 companion_cube if one was to write a server… is there any reason not to make it pure CGI?
2020-06-17 16:08:55 krixano I have started up a Gemlog finally, and the first post is Christina's Five Questions
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2020-06-17 16:09:33 krixano Now I just need to get the Atom feed thing done
2020-06-17 16:09:49 solderpunk acdw: it doesn't, because Go is broken in a way which makes it impossible for me to offer it securely :/
2020-06-17 16:10:12 solderpunk One Day(TM) I'll set up SCGI stuff for people if they want.
2020-06-17 16:10:17 makeworld solderpunk: I remember you mentioned adding gemlikes one time but you were worried about root perms for CGI
2020-06-17 16:10:24 makeworld Why not just not run the server as root?
2020-06-17 16:10:38 solderpunk I don't run the server as root!!!
2020-06-17 16:10:55 makeworld Oh sorry haha
2020-06-17 16:11:03 makeworld Must have misunderstood the issue
2020-06-17 16:11:09 makeworld What's the problem that Go has?
2020-06-17 16:11:16 solderpunk But no matter what user it runs as, if CGI applications run as the *same* user, then CGI applications can do scary things like read/write the server logs, read the TLS files, etc.
2020-06-17 16:11:24 solderpunk It can't setuid() properly.
2020-06-17 16:11:34 solderpunk Apparently it might get fixed in the next release.
2020-06-17 16:11:47 acdw solderpunk: thanks for the info, at some point I want to change my domain over to digitalocean or something to set up more servers for it and I can CGI at that time
2020-06-17 16:12:05 acdw also that seems like a huge oversight from the Go team tbh
2020-06-17 16:13:53 solderpunk companion_cube: The usual argument against pure CGI is that it doesn't scale up well to heavy traffic, but heavy traffic is unlikely to be a serious problem in Geminispace for years, so for *now* I don't see a reason to go with anything fancier.
2020-06-17 16:14:07 solderpunk acdw: It's a consequence of the way they implement goroutines.
2020-06-17 16:14:10 solderpunk I gather it's not an easy fix.
2020-06-17 16:14:15 makeworld It's not that they don't have setuid at all, it's that there's a long standing bug in the implementation so for now it doesn't work
2020-06-17 16:15:03 makeworld For gemlikes specifically though, maybe that could just be a CGI file, but nothing else is allowed
2020-06-17 16:15:25 makeworld Like add CGI capbability to certain paths in Molly Brown, and don't give users access to those paths
2020-06-17 16:15:44 makeworld But I understand not wanting to add it until it's fixed
2020-06-17 16:16:11 solderpunk I can limit it to certain paths already.
2020-06-17 16:16:30 makeworld Hmm also the other problem would be gemlikes doesn't like multiple files with the same name, which would be a problem with multiple users...
2020-06-17 16:16:36 makeworld I should change that maybe
2020-06-17 16:17:27 solderpunk Congrats xq, Günther is the first plant to ever get watered using Alphonse!
2020-06-17 16:17:36 xq whooo \o/
2020-06-17 16:17:36 acdw weird
2020-06-17 16:17:42 xq What is Alphonse?
2020-06-17 16:17:49 acdw sorry..weird w/ goroutines
2020-06-17 16:18:06 acdw .. is Alphonse one o them ~fancy~ clients you were talking about?
2020-06-17 16:18:14 solderpunk My proof-of-concept "containerised" Gemini client.
2020-06-17 16:18:17 acdw ooooh
2020-06-17 16:18:19 solderpunk Which aren't fancy at all :p
2020-06-17 16:18:19 xq ah!
2020-06-17 16:18:21 xq neat
2020-06-17 16:18:37 acdw I realized once I wrote fancy that it was actually totally *not* fancy
2020-06-17 16:18:42 solderpunk Haha
2020-06-17 16:19:26 acdw I do like the idea of two-ness with your idea tho -- it's like the twins of Gemini
2020-06-17 16:19:41 krixano *gasp*, A plant is deceased!
2020-06-17 16:19:49 acdw similar to if someone implements a gemini+put: slash titan: --- it's a twin thing
2020-06-17 16:19:53 krixano Two Plants!!!
2020-06-17 16:20:05 acdw krixano: that might be my plant that I tested client certs with
2020-06-17 16:20:10 acdw and didn't do anything else with
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2020-06-17 16:20:22 acdw I'm also really good at killing my plants in tilde.town
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2020-06-17 16:20:31 acdw and real life
2020-06-17 16:21:09 makeworld The gemini twins, yess
2020-06-17 16:21:29 solderpunk acdw: Argh, the twins of Gemini as the two kinds of client! That's brilliant!
2020-06-17 16:21:45 acdw :D
2020-06-17 16:22:54 makeworld Quick, edit the post!
2020-06-17 16:22:58 makeworld It's your idea now
2020-06-17 16:23:30 acdw haha
2020-06-17 16:24:06 solderpunk lol
2020-06-17 16:24:55 companion_cube solderpunk: what's your goto language? Go?
2020-06-17 16:27:00 solderpunk Python, I have only started playing with Go fairly recently.
2020-06-17 16:29:40 makeworld Same here, although I like Go a lot now
2020-06-17 16:29:57 makeworld I'd reach for it in most situations
2020-06-17 16:30:11 companion_cube what do you make of the post on generics?
2020-06-17 16:30:56 makeworld Seems somewhat awkward, but a lot of people want them. I don't know enough about Go and type theory etc to really speak about it
2020-06-17 16:35:21 ~tiwesdaeg go has a great mascot
2020-06-17 16:35:42 acdw ^ that's about the extent of my opinions on go
2020-06-17 16:35:44 ~tiwesdaeg reminds me a lot of Glenda from Plan9
2020-06-17 16:35:54 acdw It's the same artist I'm pretty sure!
2020-06-17 16:36:02 ~tiwesdaeg these things are important
2020-06-17 16:36:28 krixano solderpunk, I've added an atom feed for my gemlog, at gemini://pon.ix.tc/~krixano/gemlog/atom.xml
2020-06-17 16:36:28 krixano I was wondering if you could add it to CAPCOM
2020-06-17 16:36:29 ~tiwesdaeg I mean, you want your branded coffee mug to look nice
2020-06-17 16:36:43 acdw heck yes
2020-06-17 16:37:14 acdw tiwesdaeg: what's your glog URL?
2020-06-17 16:37:49 ~tiwesdaeg the thing I just posted to Capcom or my regular gemlog I suck at updating?
2020-06-17 16:38:01 acdw Capcom! I found the other (tilde.pink) ;)
2020-06-17 16:38:14 ~tiwesdaeg gemini://qd.discordian.de/
2020-06-17 16:38:18 acdw :D thanks
2020-06-17 16:38:33 acdw nice art!
2020-06-17 16:38:36 ~tiwesdaeg I originally had it at qd.libraryoferis.org, but I recently picked up the domain for another VPS
2020-06-17 16:38:56 ~tiwesdaeg I stole the apple design and put a k in it
2020-06-17 16:39:08 acdw oh I liked library of eris! So this is the new spot for it, then, or is there still libraryoferis.org ?
2020-06-17 16:39:10 ~tiwesdaeg the ribbony thing was fun
2020-06-17 16:39:18 ~tiwesdaeg nope, that still there
2020-06-17 16:39:21 acdw just answered my own question, lol
2020-06-17 16:39:38 ~tiwesdaeg this is my own little project, whereas the library is a big repository for discordian works
2020-06-17 16:39:57 acdw ASCII art is so much fun! when I get home today I'm going to post my gemified and ascii-art-ified hyptertest
2020-06-17 16:39:59 acdw nice!
2020-06-17 16:40:11 acdw discordianism is so interesting and confusing to me
2020-06-17 16:40:25 ~tiwesdaeg sounds like you understand it perfectly!
2020-06-17 16:40:31 acdw haha awesome
2020-06-17 16:41:03 ~tiwesdaeg ok, time for that bike ride
2020-06-17 16:41:10 acdw o/
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2020-06-17 16:56:42 `epochbot 16:35 <~tiwesdaeg> reminds me a lot of Glenda from Plan9
2020-06-17 16:56:52 `epochbot was drawn by the same person afair
2020-06-17 16:58:59 solderpunk krixano: Added your feed to CAPCOM just now, thanks!
2020-06-17 17:00:26 krixano Thanks!!!
2020-06-17 17:01:09 solderpunk The cron job that polls feeds only runs 4 times a day, so you may not see your stuff show up for a while, but it should.
2020-06-17 17:01:22 krixano Ok :)
2020-06-17 17:02:12 krixano I just seen someone put my youtube mirror on a mirrorlist! Thanks whoever it was!
2020-06-17 17:02:29 paper o/ that's me
2020-06-17 17:06:10 krixano I'm currently working on another web mirror
2020-06-17 17:06:30 krixano For song lyrics
2020-06-17 17:06:34 acdw awesome!
2020-06-17 17:06:47 paper nice, ping me when you finish it and I will add it to the list :)
2020-06-17 17:07:15 krixano Will do, thanks
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2020-06-17 17:12:41 krixano It will be done today, because it's actually really easy to do
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2020-06-17 17:55:33 @tomasino demifiend hang out in here?
2020-06-17 17:55:50 @tomasino the feed they're feeding into capcom is missing the ".gemini" on the link.
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2020-06-17 18:18:16 paper ok, so we now officially have spam on gemini: gemini://gempaper.strangled.net/spam/
2020-06-17 18:21:29 krixano My quota for my YouTube interface has already exceeded, lol
2020-06-17 18:22:20 paper using an API key?
2020-06-17 18:22:29 krixano Yeah, you have to for youtube
2020-06-17 18:22:39 paper well, that sucks
2020-06-17 18:22:53 ~tiwesdaeg mmmm sweaty
2020-06-17 18:22:59 paper does invidious have api?
2020-06-17 18:24:22 krixano It does!!!
2020-06-17 18:24:33 paper :)
2020-06-17 18:24:43 krixano I'll use that when I get the time to switch over.
2020-06-17 18:25:10 paper some inspiration: https://github.com/trizen/straw-viewer
2020-06-17 18:25:56 ~tiwesdaeg `epochbot: Renee French
2020-06-17 18:26:03 ~tiwesdaeg I looked it up
2020-06-17 18:27:06 paper ?
2020-06-17 18:29:49 krixano My quota is 10,000 per day
2020-06-17 18:30:10 krixano The fact it's already reached that was really unexpected to me.
2020-06-17 18:30:14 paper what? how could you cross that?
2020-06-17 18:30:33 krixano You have to pay to get more I believe
2020-06-17 18:30:44 paper I don't think there are that many gemini users
2020-06-17 18:31:40 krixano Idk... yesturday it only reached 3000
2020-06-17 18:31:48 krixano Today it's almost at 10,000
2020-06-17 18:32:03 krixano So that's a *big* jump
2020-06-17 18:32:23 solderpunk Hmm...GUS and/or houston, maybe?
2020-06-17 18:32:50 krixano Hm... that might be it
2020-06-17 18:33:02 paper robots.txt?
2020-06-17 18:33:06 krixano I don't even know if I have that one file to tell search engines what to do
2020-06-17 18:33:10 krixano Yeah, robots.txt
2020-06-17 18:33:16 krixano Let me check/create that
2020-06-17 18:33:51 krixano I *do* have a robots.txt, it just allows everything atm
2020-06-17 18:34:03 krixano How do I get it to not crawl the cgi-bin directory?
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2020-06-17 18:36:49 krixano Ok, I *think* I did the robots.txt right this time
2020-06-17 18:37:09 paper btw, which client requests /favicon.txt?
2020-06-17 19:16:53 krixano Well this sucks... genius requires OAuth to use their api for anything, and musixmatch only does partial lyrics with the free plan
2020-06-17 19:17:23 krixano I technically have musixmatch working already though: gemini://pon.ix.tc:1965/cgi-bin/songlyrics.cgi?song&96371672
2020-06-17 19:21:59 krixano What if I just started from scratch and made a gemini service where people can upload songs, albums, artists, and lyrics.
2020-06-17 19:21:59 krixano The problem is, we'd have to do a *lot* of work of importing all this information somehow, and it won't have nearly as much as these existing web services
2020-06-17 19:31:59 krixano It's so stupid how these websites make you pay or be logged in or some other stupid thing just to get information that's freely available on their website. It's just another way to lock you into the web.
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2020-06-17 20:08:47 makeworld paper: I think portal.mozz.us does??
2020-06-17 20:08:51 makeworld My client will, later
2020-06-17 20:09:10 makeworld You put an emoji there, btw
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2020-06-17 20:26:51 paper makeworld: is there a spec somewhere? should it be ascii art? how big?
2020-06-17 20:27:00 makeworld Yes there is, one sec
2020-06-17 20:27:11 makeworld gemini://mozz.us/files/rfc_gemini_favicon.gmi
2020-06-17 20:27:16 makeworld It's just a single emoji
2020-06-17 20:27:24 makeworld With optional whitespa
2020-06-17 20:27:33 makeworld *with an optional new line at the end
2020-06-17 20:27:51 paper TIL
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2020-06-17 21:58:54 ~tiwesdaeg I'm not sure of portal.mozz.us is setup for it
2020-06-17 21:59:38 ~tiwesdaeg I've got a favicon.txt and I'm not seeing any changes
2020-06-17 22:10:12 acdw it might take an hour
2020-06-17 22:10:27 acdw I think portal.mozz.us only polls on the hour
2020-06-17 22:10:45 acdw but it does work: gemini://makeworld.gq/cgi-bin/gemini-irc (next to the url bar)
2020-06-17 22:13:42 @tomasino https://portal.mozz.us/gemini/cosmic.voyage/
2020-06-17 22:13:47 @tomasino i think the rocket will be a popular one
2020-06-17 22:13:58 @tomasino tilde.black has the black hole: https://portal.mozz.us/gemini/tilde.black/
2020-06-17 22:15:26 acdw Part of me wants to implement favicon.txt in bollux but it seems like a lot of work
2020-06-17 22:16:10 @tomasino i hadn't realized anyone was doing it until you pointed out mozz
2020-06-17 22:23:10 ~tiwesdaeg and you guys have a file called favicon.txt in the root folder with a single emoji on the first line and maybe a newline character?
2020-06-17 22:26:56 @tomasino yep
2020-06-17 22:27:22 @tomasino i've had mine there for a while on cosmic & black since whoever brought it up on the ML
2020-06-17 22:35:18 krixano makeworld, does your md2gemini do anything with html embeded in markdown files?
2020-06-17 22:35:55 makeworld krixano: Yes, I think it displays it in a preformatted block
2020-06-17 22:35:58 makeworld Let me double check
2020-06-17 22:36:26 krixano No, I mean, like, if someone uses <strong style="whatever"> instead of **
2020-06-17 22:37:06 krixano (or like, the use of <br>, as another example)
2020-06-17 22:37:09 makeworld Oh it just leaves that as is
2020-06-17 22:37:28 krixano Ok, thanks.
2020-06-17 22:37:42 makeworld I should actually make it so it removes it if you use the --plain option
2020-06-17 22:37:55 krixano Unfortunately, the mirror I'm making that uses markdown files uses html tags for things markdown can't do
2020-06-17 22:38:02 krixano Ok, cool! That'll work better
2020-06-17 22:38:06 makeworld Hmm
2020-06-17 22:38:15 makeworld Okay hold, just let me add that and push a release
2020-06-17 22:38:20 makeworld *hold on
2020-06-17 22:38:27 makeworld Cause right now it doesn't strip html on --plain
2020-06-17 22:39:08 krixano Wait, would it strip without --plain, because I don't want plain
2020-06-17 22:40:26 krixano As in, I want to keep astrisks, but I don't want to keep html. Sorry, this is getting complicated :)
2020-06-17 22:41:28 makeworld Hmm
2020-06-17 22:41:52 makeworld I will add a strip html option
2020-06-17 22:42:08 krixano Cool, thanks!
2020-06-17 22:42:22 krixano Has anybody done an html2gemini tool?
2020-06-17 22:42:35 krixano I might try that. I haven't parsed html before, so it might be fun to do.
2020-06-17 22:42:51 acdw You could use Pandoc probably, if you don't mind that h e f t
2020-06-17 22:43:56 makeworld krixano: Unfortunately it'd be very complex
2020-06-17 22:44:14 krixano What, the html2gemini thing?
2020-06-17 22:44:17 makeworld My advice for most formats is to use pandoc to convert to markdown then use md2gemini ;)
2020-06-17 22:44:19 makeworld Yeah
2020-06-17 22:44:22 acdw HTML is vvvv complicated
2020-06-17 22:44:23 makeworld It could be, anyway
2020-06-17 22:44:43 krixano Hm... I still want to try it
2020-06-17 22:44:49 acdw Good luck!
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2020-06-17 23:17:11 krixano Gaah, HTML5 has so many tags
2020-06-17 23:17:29 makeworld Haha
2020-06-17 23:17:37 makeworld Sorry, I was predicting that
2020-06-17 23:17:54 makeworld Your feature is almost ready btw
2020-06-17 23:18:01 krixano Cool, thanks!
2020-06-17 23:19:54 krixano There are 3 main categories that I've put tags in so far: completely ignoreable, semantic (ignore semantic but keep stuff inside tag), and non-ignorable
2020-06-17 23:22:05 makeworld Alright md2gemini v1.4.0 is live, you can install it with pip.
2020-06-17 23:22:12 makeworld https://github.com/makeworld-the-better-one/md2gemini/releases/tag/v1.4.0
2020-06-17 23:22:21 krixano Yay, thanks!
2020-06-17 23:22:35 makeworld You're welcome!
2020-06-17 23:22:44 makeworld Nice to have a project people use :)
2020-06-17 23:22:58 makeworld Feel free to file issues for any bugs or features you want
2020-06-17 23:23:10 makeworld Esp. when I'm not on IRC or for big stuff
2020-06-17 23:28:25 krixano Does your tool support footnote syntax?
2020-06-17 23:29:07 makeworld Markdown footnote syntax?
2020-06-17 23:29:13 krixano Yeah
2020-06-17 23:29:30 makeworld It doesn't, but it could I think
2020-06-17 23:29:56 makeworld https://mistune.readthedocs.io/en/latest/plugins.html#footnotes
2020-06-17 23:30:03 makeworld That's the docs for the parser I'm using
2020-06-17 23:30:15 makeworld So it supports that kind of footnote syntax, although my tool doesn't enable that right now
2020-06-17 23:30:16 krixano Ok. I might need that, I'm not sure yet.
2020-06-17 23:30:36 krixano Yeah, that's the footnote syntax used in the markdown files I'm trying to convert
2020-06-17 23:30:55 makeworld Tbh that should work decently in Gemini without changes
2020-06-17 23:31:11 krixano Actually, you're right. I didn't think about that
2020-06-17 23:31:24 makeworld Links in the footnote might kinda get messed up though
2020-06-17 23:33:31 makeworld Try and let me know, maybe file an issue
2020-06-17 23:33:39 krixano Ok, thanks
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2020-06-17 23:46:15 dozens makeworld: the emoji to email sed script on your webpage is really clever. how does it work?
2020-06-17 23:47:20 makeworld Ha thanks!
2020-06-17 23:47:31 makeworld I first saw it on mathilde.website, which is down now I think
2020-06-17 23:47:38 dozens rip
2020-06-17 23:48:06 makeworld The sed `y` function does a 1:1 map of two sets of characters
2020-06-17 23:48:18 makeworld And takes input of characters from the first set
2020-06-17 23:48:24 makeworld And converts them to the second set
2020-06-17 23:48:41 makeworld So you jumble your email characters, removing and duplicates, then assign them new ones
2020-06-17 23:48:49 makeworld Then echo the translated characters
2020-06-17 23:49:26 makeworld It's the same as `tr` actually
2020-06-17 23:49:35 dozens ooooooh i get it
2020-06-17 23:49:48 makeworld Keeps non nerds and bots out haha
2020-06-17 23:50:12 makeworld Also the emojis in the sed command almost tell a love story? I tried my best lol
2020-06-17 23:50:36 makeworld So then the emojis that are echoed tell a new story as determined by my email address...
2020-06-17 23:50:42 makeworld It's very poetic, you see
2020-06-17 23:52:28 krixano Gaah, I hate python so much
2020-06-17 23:52:47 dozens i like it. i might riff on it and put something like it on my site :)
2020-06-17 23:53:05 dozens krixano: have you stopped to think about how python thinks of you??
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2020-06-17 23:53:44 krixano I'm getting a parsing error about EOF at the end of the file, lmao
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2020-06-17 23:55:37 krixano You think good error message would have been solved in the year 2020, but apparently not!
2020-06-17 23:59:30 makeworld Hmm that's weird
2020-06-17 23:59:39 makeworld Send the error, or put it in a paste?
2020-06-17 23:59:53 krixano I figured it out already, but thanks anyways
2020-06-17 23:59:59 krixano It was a missing parentheses
2020-06-18 00:00:04 makeworld Ah ok
2020-06-18 00:00:54 krixano Honestly, that error message was just unacceptable
2020-06-18 00:10:53 makeworld Haha
2020-06-18 00:11:00 makeworld Yess my client has history for each tab now
2020-06-18 00:11:13 makeworld With luck I'll be able to release the first version of this tomorrow
2020-06-18 00:11:40 companion_cube what's it written in?
2020-06-18 00:12:11 makeworld Go
2020-06-18 00:12:27 makeworld It's inspired by Bombadillo, it's a terminal client
2020-06-18 00:12:40 makeworld But it aims to be as fancy and featureful as possible
2020-06-18 00:13:01 makeworld While Bombadillo takes the opposite route and has no deps, for example
2020-06-18 00:13:09 companion_cube ah, I see
2020-06-18 00:13:16 companion_cube I use castor right now, but it's a bit buggy
2020-06-18 00:13:20 makeworld Yeah
2020-06-18 00:13:28 makeworld Kristall is nice for graphical browsing
2020-06-18 00:13:43 companion_cube it's qt based, right? sounds nice
2020-06-18 00:13:49 makeworld But personally I really enjoy that I can quickly read stuff in the terminal, and that it actually looks good for Gemini
2020-06-18 00:13:50 makeworld Yes
2020-06-18 00:13:51 krixano Kristall is hand-down the best gui browser so far
2020-06-18 00:13:55 ⚡ makeworld afk, ttyl
2020-06-18 00:15:04 companion_cube I'm just too lazy to install it manually
2020-06-18 00:16:03 krixano I believe someone setup a github action for ubuntu
2020-06-18 00:17:12 krixano Yeah, there's an action that auto-builds for ubuntu
2020-06-18 00:17:31 companion_cube yeah but I want an AUR package :)
2020-06-18 00:17:33 companion_cube oh well
2020-06-18 00:17:53 krixano Idk if it's putting the resulting binary/zip anywhere yet though
2020-06-18 00:34:12 lickthecat aur is c o o l
2020-06-18 00:46:02 Sario528 So I just found Gemini today, and I'm actually rather excited about exploring it further
2020-06-18 00:46:42 @tomasino fantastic
2020-06-18 00:46:43 @tomasino welcome
2020-06-18 00:50:06 Sario528 I'm looking at the cli clients, which do you think would be best for a beginner?
2020-06-18 00:50:19 @tomasino hmmm
2020-06-18 00:50:27 @tomasino av98 is probably the easiest to install and use
2020-06-18 00:50:43 @tomasino pip3 install AV-98
2020-06-18 00:50:46 @tomasino done & done
2020-06-18 00:51:01 Sario528 That is nice and easy
2020-06-18 00:51:23 @tomasino bollux is made in bash and "just works" on most systems
2020-06-18 00:51:48 @tomasino there are other easy-to-use ones, but they're harder to build
2020-06-18 00:52:46 krixano bombadillo is in the AUR
2020-06-18 00:53:01 krixano And it has precompiled executables too
2020-06-18 00:53:09 krixano http://bombadillo.colorfield.space/releases/binaries.html
2020-06-18 00:53:12 @tomasino oh, that's handy now
2020-06-18 00:53:23 @tomasino bombadillo was a bit of a pain to build before
2020-06-18 00:53:25 @tomasino that's great
2020-06-18 00:54:50 Sario528 Easy to build is a good feature for me right now. I'm working on my phone, so I have limited capability for complex stuff
2020-06-18 00:55:18 @tomasino i just built and installed the in-progress android client deedum
2020-06-18 00:55:27 @tomasino it's still very bare bones and a royal pain to get running
2020-06-18 01:03:44 Sario528 I'm working out of Termux.
2020-06-18 01:08:56 makeworld To be honest I'd say Bombadillo is the easiest for a beginner
2020-06-18 01:09:19 makeworld Over AV-98, because it's not line based
2020-06-18 01:09:25 @tomasino now that it's so easy to install, yeah, maybe
2020-06-18 01:09:27 makeworld But I haven't used AV-98 in a while
2020-06-18 01:09:50 makeworld My client is terminal, it'll be coming out tomorrow I think
2020-06-18 01:10:10 makeworld Just got to add Input handling
2020-06-18 01:10:25 @tomasino fun!
2020-06-18 01:11:43 makeworld Yeah, it's been great
2020-06-18 01:11:50 makeworld I'm new to TUIs in general, so that was cool
2020-06-18 01:12:09 makeworld And I get to learn about browser type stuff
2020-06-18 01:13:12 Sario528 av98 is up and running, so far doing ok
2020-06-18 01:13:39 @tomasino awesome!
2020-06-18 01:39:28 [tomasino away: unplugged]
2020-06-18 02:12:52 krixano makeworld, I'm having an issue
2020-06-18 02:13:45 krixano You know what, nvm
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2020-06-18 03:08:59 makeworld krixano: All good?
2020-06-18 03:09:02 makeworld I see some issues were filed
2020-06-18 03:09:23 krixano Yeah, I filed some issues, but that was unrelated to the issue above (which wasn't really an issue)
2020-06-18 03:09:27 makeworld Ah ok
2020-06-18 03:09:35 makeworld Thanks for filing! I'll respond in those threads
2020-06-18 03:09:45 krixano Ok :) Thanks!
2020-06-18 03:09:58 krixano Btw, I've *basically* finished the project!!! Your library was *very* useful!
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2020-06-18 03:11:52 makeworld I'm so glad!
2020-06-18 03:12:00 makeworld Feels cool
2020-06-18 03:12:08 makeworld Could you remind what the project was?
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2020-06-18 03:15:10 krixano I haven't officially announced it yet.
2020-06-18 03:15:22 krixano I will like right now, on the mailing list
2020-06-18 03:16:00 makeworld Alright, I'll be watching!
2020-06-18 03:17:12 krixano It's not like a fancy or big project, but it'll still be useful and cool
2020-06-18 03:17:27 krixano I got permission from the developer to go ahead and do a mirror of a site, basically
2020-06-18 03:17:55 makeworld Ooh
2020-06-18 03:31:43 makeworld Gn, all
2020-06-18 03:31:49 ⚡ makeworld waves
2020-06-18 03:32:31 krixano Goodnight!
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2020-06-18 04:24:41 krixano I've announced on the mailing list the new Odin-lang.org mirror for gemini, which you can find at gemini://pon.ix.tc/odin
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2020-06-18 07:50:39 paper is defdefred here? we need to talk.
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2020-06-18 11:05:11 xq hello geminauts
2020-06-18 11:05:34 Sario528 good morning
2020-06-18 11:09:23 @tomasino Yo
2020-06-18 11:31:38 [tomasino back: gone 09:52:10]
2020-06-18 11:34:59 @tomasino so, xq...
2020-06-18 11:35:15 xq hey tomasino!
2020-06-18 11:35:22 xq i fucked up the auto-cert stuff in kristall
2020-06-18 11:35:23 xq i know :D
2020-06-18 11:35:23 @tomasino if i start playing an mp3 in krystall directly, then click "back" and do other stuff, the music keeps going
2020-06-18 11:35:30 xq oh yeah
2020-06-18 11:35:31 xq that thing …
2020-06-18 11:35:32 xq :D
2020-06-18 11:35:35 @tomasino :D
2020-06-18 11:35:36 xq enjoy! *grin*
2020-06-18 11:35:39 @tomasino haha
2020-06-18 11:35:48 @tomasino undocumented feature
2020-06-18 11:36:26 @tomasino we'll see if my botany plant survives the great auto-cert disruption of 2020
2020-06-18 11:36:31 ⚡ tomasino shrugs
2020-06-18 11:37:06 @tomasino killing that tab kills the music, btw
2020-06-18 11:37:10 @tomasino just opened a new tab
2020-06-18 11:37:12 xq haha
2020-06-18 11:37:12 @tomasino victory
2020-06-18 11:37:18 xq yeah, i have to insert a stop there :D
2020-06-18 11:37:36 xq > Your plant was recently watered by solderpunk.
2020-06-18 11:37:37 xq phew
2020-06-18 11:37:47 @tomasino oh nice
2020-06-18 11:38:30 xq > You water tomasino's plant for them.
2020-06-18 11:38:41 @tomasino double nice!
2020-06-18 11:38:51 @tomasino i'm not sure how to view the status of my own plant without the cert
2020-06-18 11:39:01 @tomasino it's all in the /app area
2020-06-18 11:39:15 xq i think you can't
2020-06-18 11:39:21 @tomasino ahh, well, thanks for watering!
2020-06-18 11:39:31 @tomasino good ol' stacie
2020-06-18 11:39:51 xq pushed a small fix
2020-06-18 11:47:00 @tomasino woo
2020-06-18 11:47:49 @tomasino my plant is back
2020-06-18 11:47:50 @tomasino yay!
2020-06-18 11:49:56 xq :)
2020-06-18 11:50:12 xq not perfect atm, but i keep the spec adjustments in Kristall
2020-06-18 11:54:38 @tomasino if anyone here didn't notice, konpeito.media is back up
2020-06-18 11:54:43 @tomasino and there's a new mix for summer
2020-06-18 12:23:02 ~tiwesdaeg good morning all
2020-06-18 12:23:25 ~tiwesdaeg poked cat in the eye enough times?
2020-06-18 12:23:52 @tomasino hah, he got motivated to work on some gopher stuff, so while he was in the mood I gave a pointer or two to get his jetforce updated and then it was easy
2020-06-18 12:25:10 ~tiwesdaeg I realized the other day my geomyidae version is very out of date
2020-06-18 12:27:24 ~tiwesdaeg ooo, new build errors with kristall
2020-06-18 12:27:41 @tomasino oh?
2020-06-18 12:27:46 @tomasino mine was all smooth
2020-06-18 12:28:19 @tomasino i've penciled in on my todo list to add an atom feed to my gemini capsule on black
2020-06-18 12:28:34 xq tiwesdaeg: what's up?
2020-06-18 12:28:42 ~tiwesdaeg i just did a git pull this morning
2020-06-18 12:28:47 ~tiwesdaeg let me get you a link
2020-06-18 12:29:13 ~tiwesdaeg https://ttm.sh/QTk.txt
2020-06-18 12:30:36 xq oh
2020-06-18 12:30:38 xq that's good!
2020-06-18 12:30:41 ~tiwesdaeg this is manjaro
2020-06-18 12:30:54 xq yeah i've added some safety measures
2020-06-18 12:30:57 xq you encountered bugs
2020-06-18 12:31:00 xq that need to be fixed
2020-06-18 12:31:00 xq :D
2020-06-18 12:31:05 xq will fix that this evening
2020-06-18 12:31:30 ~tiwesdaeg those darn bugs
2020-06-18 12:33:02 xq yeah
2020-06-18 12:33:07 xq i've added security measures against that
2020-06-18 12:33:13 xq (which is why you now get an error instead of a warning)
2020-06-18 12:33:28 ~tiwesdaeg still getting warning too ;P
2020-06-18 12:33:47 xq haha
2020-06-18 12:33:52 xq yeah, i have to make a clean rebuild
2020-06-18 12:37:56 ~tiwesdaeg xq: do you mind if I poke at the kristall icon to make it more visible in both light and dark themes?
2020-06-18 12:38:22 ~tiwesdaeg you can totally chuck my suggestions in the bin
2020-06-18 12:38:44 xq you mean the app icon?
2020-06-18 12:38:47 xq or the whole icon theme?
2020-06-18 12:38:52 ~tiwesdaeg app icon
2020-06-18 12:38:58 xq go ahead!
2020-06-18 12:39:00 xq make that awesome!
2020-06-18 12:39:11 ▬▬▶ acdw has joined #gemini
2020-06-18 12:39:14 acdw g'morning all
2020-06-18 12:39:18 xq on icon themes: i have a way to fix that icons look crap on dark theme i think
2020-06-18 12:39:19 ~tiwesdaeg good morning
2020-06-18 12:39:20 xq hey acdw
2020-06-18 12:39:27 @julienxx hi!
2020-06-18 12:39:32 @tomasino Hi hi
2020-06-18 12:39:36 ~tiwesdaeg they aren't too bad right now
2020-06-18 12:39:40 acdw I just posted the gemification of Vault Guard: gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/users/acdw/vault-guard/
2020-06-18 12:39:44 acdw hey hey :)
2020-06-18 12:39:58 paper ji
2020-06-18 12:40:00 paper hi
2020-06-18 12:40:39 @tomasino cyoa!
2020-06-18 13:03:43 Sario528 Question about the mailing list: I've tried to join a couple of times, but I never could get the link to work. Is there another way to join it?
2020-06-18 13:04:44 @tomasino this link isn't working for you? https://lists.orbitalfox.eu/listinfo/gemini
2020-06-18 13:11:48 ▬▬▶ bard has joined #gemini
2020-06-18 13:15:47 Sario528 tomasino: that link worked, thank you. The link I was having trouble with was on gemini.circumlunar.space
2020-06-18 13:16:01 paper I didn't get the last 2 emails, maybe something was wrong
2020-06-18 13:26:08 acdw has quit (Client exited)
2020-06-18 13:33:41 ~tiwesdaeg xq: just an idea https://ttm.sh/QT7.png
2020-06-18 13:35:48 xq sexey!
2020-06-18 13:36:46 ~tiwesdaeg are you big on blue?
2020-06-18 13:39:23 xq i love blue and purple
2020-06-18 13:39:31 @tomasino they love you too
2020-06-18 13:39:40 xq <3
2020-06-18 13:42:45 ~tiwesdaeg https://ttm.sh/QTJ.png
2020-06-18 13:43:21 xq previous one is better
2020-06-18 13:43:23 ~tiwesdaeg I actually redrew the whole thing so I could round the corners and make the lines thinner
2020-06-18 13:43:26 xq looks more crystally
2020-06-18 13:43:37 xq wasn't that possible with the SVG path?
2020-06-18 13:43:58 ~tiwesdaeg who knows?
2020-06-18 13:44:13 ~tiwesdaeg I know how to round the stroke
2020-06-18 13:46:18 ~tiwesdaeg https://ttm.sh/QTo.png
2020-06-18 13:46:29 ~tiwesdaeg less greenish blue than the last one
2020-06-18 13:46:35 ~tiwesdaeg err, one before last
2020-06-18 13:46:38 xq quite bright
2020-06-18 13:46:43 xq (which is not bad)
2020-06-18 13:47:44 ~tiwesdaeg I only shaded the inner-outer edges, not the crossing lines
2020-06-18 13:50:41 ~tiwesdaeg https://ttm.sh/QTr.png
2020-06-18 13:50:56 ~tiwesdaeg a little darker, but still very visible with both dark and light themes
2020-06-18 13:51:26 xq nice, i like that version
2020-06-18 13:51:45 ~tiwesdaeg let me try one more thing with the shading
2020-06-18 13:55:33 mhj Yo Gemmas
2020-06-18 13:56:40 ~tiwesdaeg nope, I don't like that
2020-06-18 13:58:07 ~tiwesdaeg xq: https://ttm.sh/QTs.svg
2020-06-18 13:58:13 ~tiwesdaeg if you want to play with it
2020-06-18 13:58:21 ~tiwesdaeg now the garden calls
2020-06-18 13:58:41 xq looking good, will include that
2020-06-18 14:05:29 @tomasino okay, who has a gemini atom reader
2020-06-18 14:05:31 @tomasino i'm ready for a test
2020-06-18 14:05:39 @tomasino gemini://tilde.black/users/fox/atom.xml
2020-06-18 14:12:38 ▬▬▶ acdw has joined #gemini
2020-06-18 15:01:03 ~tiwesdaeg tomasino: I think just capcom right now
2020-06-18 15:01:28 @tomasino i'm on now
2020-06-18 15:01:29 ~tiwesdaeg xq said 0.5 release of kristall should have one
2020-06-18 15:01:33 @tomasino solderpunk added me and it's working
2020-06-18 15:01:34 @tomasino huzzah
2020-06-18 15:01:44 ~tiwesdaeg did you use gemfeed?
2020-06-18 15:01:53 @tomasino no, did it by hand
2020-06-18 15:02:05 ~tiwesdaeg I set one up with him yesterday
2020-06-18 15:02:07 @tomasino i have different folders for different types of content
2020-06-18 15:24:19 acdw tomasino: just now seeing your reply to the five questions. that is seriously an involved answer! I'm thinking I should go back and think harder about that first one
2020-06-18 15:24:29 acdw (Also Kesha's newer stuff is AMAZING)
2020-06-18 15:24:48 @tomasino Right!?
2020-06-18 15:25:17 @tomasino I'm trying to treat my Gemini experience more long form
2020-06-18 15:25:18 acdw I actually (a) didn't realize it came out 3 YEARS ago (oof) and (b) haven't listened to the whole album, just the singles on Youtube
2020-06-18 15:25:27 acdw well keep it up! it's great
2020-06-18 15:25:31 @tomasino Thanks
2020-06-18 15:26:22 acdw So this 5-question thing...is it kind of just..whoever wants to ask q's can ask em, whenever? or do yall try to space em out on Gopher or what? b/c I could maybe come up w/ some but
2020-06-18 15:27:00 @tomasino Just do as you like
2020-06-18 15:27:05 @tomasino No special rules
2020-06-18 15:27:05 acdw :D
2020-06-18 15:27:06 acdw nice
2020-06-18 15:27:25 acdw I guess I'm coming at this from like, a centralized social media mindset, with rules and stuff
2020-06-18 15:27:34 acdw but it's all just people in gemspace
2020-06-18 15:43:11 @tomasino Exactly
2020-06-18 15:50:17 makeworld krixano: v1.5.0 of md2gemini released with your feature requests :)
2020-06-18 15:50:27 krixano Thanks!
2020-06-18 15:50:31 makeworld Let me know if you can reproduce that html stripping bug, otherwise I'll close it
2020-06-18 15:50:36 makeworld Welcome
2020-06-18 15:51:24 krixano So, I have an idea to try to create tamagotchi for gopher. I had a tamachotchi when I was younger, and thought it was really cool. It was one of the version that could connect to each other I believe.
2020-06-18 15:51:58 acdw YES
2020-06-18 15:52:11 acdw that would be the absolute coolest
2020-06-18 15:53:07 makeworld Woah yeah
2020-06-18 15:53:13 makeworld With ASCII art and everything
2020-06-18 15:53:14 makeworld Go for it
2020-06-18 15:53:19 @tomasino On Gemini with client certs like astrobotany you can name them and everything
2020-06-18 15:53:39 krixano Well.... I'm not good at ascii art, so someone else will have to help me with that :)
2020-06-18 15:53:54 acdw I'm just beginning with ascii art but I'd love to help!
2020-06-18 15:54:23 krixano The only thing is, I don't actually know how to handle cert stuff in CGI or if I need to create a full gemini server to do that.
2020-06-18 15:54:56 acdw oof yeah idk re that
2020-06-18 15:55:49 krixano So, each version has different stuff. I was planning on just going with the one I grew up with, which I *think* was the Tamagotchi Connection V4, but if people want a certain version, than I'm happy to take suggestions!
2020-06-18 15:56:57 @tomasino i think the astrobotany code is linked
2020-06-18 15:57:02 @tomasino maybe you could start from there and modify it
2020-06-18 15:57:12 @tomasino as for ascii art... put out a call for contributions?
2020-06-18 15:58:31 krixano astrobotany isn't cgi, it's its own gemini server it looks like
2020-06-18 15:58:44 acdw I did not even know there were different versions of tomagotchi
2020-06-18 15:59:21 krixano Yeah, here's a wiki that has each version: https://tamagotchi.fandom.com/wiki/Category:List_of_all_Tamagotchi_Releases
2020-06-18 15:59:46 acdw I think mine was the Original (1996) version
2020-06-18 16:00:27 acdw oh man that website is giving me major nostalgia
2020-06-18 16:06:33 acdw ____
2020-06-18 16:06:33 acdw __/. . \
2020-06-18 16:06:33 acdw (___ )
2020-06-18 16:06:33 acdw (___ L
2020-06-18 16:06:33 acdw | \
2020-06-18 16:06:33 acdw | V )
2020-06-18 16:06:33 acdw \ __ /
2020-06-18 16:06:33 acdw v v
2020-06-18 16:06:35 acdw BOOM
2020-06-18 16:06:48 acdw my favorite one, the ducky
2020-06-18 16:06:52 @tomasino hehe
2020-06-18 16:08:30 krixano I'm wondering if someone can help me with this CGI error I'm getting.
2020-06-18 16:09:18 krixano If you go to gemini://pon.ix.tc/cgi-bin/howdoi.cgi I get this CGI error, but I literally have no idea why it's happening.
2020-06-18 16:09:54 ~tiwesdaeg krixano: what does the code look like?
2020-06-18 16:10:42 krixano It's a python script, so you should be able to download from that link and see it.
2020-06-18 16:11:17 ~tiwesdaeg it doesn't work like that
2020-06-18 16:11:28 krixano Yeah, I know... I'm just being stupid
2020-06-18 16:11:29 ~tiwesdaeg I get whatever the server decides to display
2020-06-18 16:11:39 krixano Let me put it in cgi-bin
2020-06-18 16:12:01 ~tiwesdaeg you could upload it to ttm.sh
2020-06-18 16:12:45 krixano It's already in cgi-bin, without executable permision set
2020-06-18 16:12:57 ▬▬▶ lickthecat has joined #gemini
2020-06-18 16:13:00 krixano gemini://pon.ix.tc/cgi-bin/main.py
2020-06-18 16:15:20 krixano And it works in the terminal (aside from the environment variables)
2020-06-18 16:17:27 ~tiwesdaeg I'm poking at it
2020-06-18 16:17:50 krixano What is ttm.sh?
2020-06-18 16:22:32 lickthecat krixano: its a url shortener and image/file mirror people also use it as a pastebin
2020-06-18 16:22:41 krixano Oh, cool!
2020-06-18 16:23:54 ~tiwesdaeg could it be something to do with the environment variables?
2020-06-18 16:24:08 ~tiwesdaeg hmm, it should still print out though
2020-06-18 16:24:38 krixano Yeah, cuz I'm checking if they're NoneType (or whatever the weird python thing is called)
2020-06-18 16:25:08 krixano The only thing I could think of is it's not printing out the status code and mimetype line correctly or something, idk
2020-06-18 16:25:39 ~tiwesdaeg on libraryoferis.org/cgi-bin/item.cgi, I just have a shell script that takes the query input and runs a python script
2020-06-18 16:26:24 krixano I could try that, but I really don't like shell scripts, lol
2020-06-18 16:27:19 krixano Thanks for the help!
2020-06-18 16:27:23 ~tiwesdaeg gemini://discordian.de/cgi-bin/test.cgi
2020-06-18 16:27:32 ~tiwesdaeg it's your 20 line
2020-06-18 16:27:48 krixano What's wrong with it?
2020-06-18 16:27:52 ~tiwesdaeg print("20 text/gemini\r\n")
2020-06-18 16:27:56 ~tiwesdaeg I put that at the top
2020-06-18 16:28:16 ~tiwesdaeg yours looks all complicated ;P
2020-06-18 16:28:26 @tomasino pb!
2020-06-18 16:28:29 krixano How is it complicated, it's almost the same
2020-06-18 16:28:34 @tomasino https://tildegit.org/tomasino/pb
2020-06-18 16:28:45 @tomasino ttm.sh related ^
2020-06-18 16:29:03 krixano Mine just has a charset and lang
2020-06-18 16:29:33 ~tiwesdaeg that line works
2020-06-18 16:29:37 krixano It's literally the same thing I use for all of my other stuff, unless the problem is the crappy end thing python uses for some dumb reason
2020-06-18 16:29:38 ~tiwesdaeg it's nested in the if statement
2020-06-18 16:29:48 ~tiwesdaeg so, it's never being called up?
2020-06-18 16:30:01 ~tiwesdaeg what is that end thing?
2020-06-18 16:30:05 ~tiwesdaeg I've never used it
2020-06-18 16:30:16 krixano No, that's not it, because I just copied and pasted it to the top and it still errors
2020-06-18 16:30:23 ~tiwesdaeg I did too
2020-06-18 16:30:30 ~tiwesdaeg refresh my link
2020-06-18 16:30:37 ~tiwesdaeg I put it on top of my old one
2020-06-18 16:30:39 krixano It's pythons stupid thing because print automatically puts a new line on end unless you specify that parameter.
2020-06-18 16:30:52 krixano You know, becaues they couldn't just make a printf and println
2020-06-18 16:30:57 @tomasino print vs printf ?
2020-06-18 16:31:29 krixano Google results show there's no printf in python
2020-06-18 16:31:37 @tomasino import sys
2020-06-18 16:31:37 @tomasino def printf(format, *args):
2020-06-18 16:31:37 @tomasino sys.stdout.write(format % args)
2020-06-18 16:31:40 @tomasino done!
2020-06-18 16:32:08 ~tiwesdaeg krixano: what's your server?
2020-06-18 16:32:09 krixano Well, sure, you can make your own function, but why isn't this **in python already** like literally *every* other language? LMAO
2020-06-18 16:32:22 @tomasino hehe
2020-06-18 16:32:23 @tomasino yep
2020-06-18 16:32:39 krixano Python is such a crappy language, imo. Sorry to python-lovers, but I just hate it so much
2020-06-18 16:33:27 ~tiwesdaeg krixano: can you do this in shell script?
2020-06-18 16:33:34 ~tiwesdaeg if you want to keep this scripty
2020-06-18 16:33:42 krixano I'm testing the change to printf really quickly
2020-06-18 16:34:31 krixano You know what, lmao
2020-06-18 16:35:00 krixano I just seen the bug... the end ="" thing did work, I just didn't have \r\n only in the else branch, but I had it for all the other "pages"
2020-06-18 16:35:37 dkibi python has 3*10^6 ways of formating strings, but I don't think a printf is needed given that some of those ways are quite compact
2020-06-18 16:35:46 ~tiwesdaeg ahh
2020-06-18 16:36:00 krixano It is if print automatically puts new lines at the end of stuff!
2020-06-18 16:36:10 dkibi Python is a language that frustrats me: I'm suprisingly productive when using it despite it's shortcommings
2020-06-18 16:36:20 krixano (and yes, I know about the stupid "end = " thing, but still!)
2020-06-18 16:36:27 dkibi you can do end="
2020-06-18 16:36:48 dkibi end = "\r\n"
2020-06-18 16:36:55 dkibi yeah end is very annoying
2020-06-18 16:37:17 dkibi there should be put defined as print(..., end ='') or something like that
2020-06-18 16:40:14 krixano xq, a good feature might be being able to see the exact response from the server
2020-06-18 16:40:31 xq you mean unparsed?
2020-06-18 16:40:37 krixano Yeah
2020-06-18 16:40:40 xq without any head processing?
2020-06-18 16:40:43 xq why?
2020-06-18 16:40:45 krixano Yeah
2020-06-18 16:41:23 krixano So that I could see if I'm doing stuff wrong. It's also useful for dynamically generated content to see what mime type, what charset, etc. And for seeing if you have a typo in the response.
2020-06-18 16:41:30 xq openssl s_client helps
2020-06-18 16:41:50 krixano Why would I need that if I could have a nice browser do it for me? :)
2020-06-18 16:41:55 xq Kristall is not meant as a development client, we have far better options than that ;)
2020-06-18 16:42:03 xq because it's easier than a browser to use
2020-06-18 16:42:09 krixano I disagree
2020-06-18 16:42:23 krixano *Especially* for Windows users
2020-06-18 16:43:56 krixano Ok, so I *thought* I figured out the problem, but I didn't. So I'm guessing the python script just can't be run by itself, so I'll have to do that batch script weirdness
2020-06-18 16:44:02 krixano * bash
2020-06-18 16:44:11 xq i don't think i will implement that in Kristall
2020-06-18 16:44:18 xq i don't store any of the response atm
2020-06-18 16:44:32 krixano Then how do you parse it?
2020-06-18 16:44:32 xq and i don't really see how to implement that without rewriting everything
2020-06-18 16:44:36 xq on-the-fly
2020-06-18 16:44:41 krixano What?
2020-06-18 16:44:59 xq also, keep in mind that that Kristall is built to handle an arbitrary amount of protocols
2020-06-18 16:45:08 xq stream parser
2020-06-18 16:45:16 xq read until the right stuff is there or error out
2020-06-18 16:45:20 krixano Hm... ok. That's kinda ok imo, but ok
2020-06-18 16:45:39 xq it's the easiest way, i don't store a full response
2020-06-18 16:45:42 krixano That's kinda odd... I can't type today
2020-06-18 16:47:33 xq hm?
2020-06-18 16:47:41 xq if you want a debug client for windows, make one!
2020-06-18 16:47:48 xq It's really not hard with qt
2020-06-18 16:47:55 xq especially if you don't want *any* client at akk
2020-06-18 16:48:01 xq but just an SSL terminal
2020-06-18 16:48:10 xq also check out if netcat does TLS
2020-06-18 16:48:12 krixano Well, you literally don't even need anything for a "debug client" for gemini
2020-06-18 16:48:13 krixano lol
2020-06-18 16:48:14 xq if yes, you can also just use netcat
2020-06-18 16:48:33 krixano It'll literally just be displaying the full response, that's like... it
2020-06-18 16:48:49 krixano Not worth the time making a "debug client" that does something so simple
2020-06-18 16:49:14 xq it's less work to build a debug client than to change Kristall to display hte full response :D
2020-06-18 16:49:27 krixano I'm not sure that's true
2020-06-18 16:49:39 acdw you can also open an ssl thing with `openssl`
2020-06-18 16:49:42 acdw has quit (Client exited)
2020-06-18 16:50:02 krixano I don't know how displaying text is so hard in Kristall, but whatevs...
2020-06-18 16:50:55 xq point is:
2020-06-18 16:50:59 xq kristall does abstraction
2020-06-18 16:51:03 krixano Having it as a separate tool would be completely dumb, imo. It's like taking unix philosophy to an idiotic extreme... here, let's make each function within a program it's own program why don't we!
2020-06-18 16:51:06 xq it does not only process Gemini
2020-06-18 16:51:25 krixano Yes, I got that, but how do you put stuff on the screen?
2020-06-18 16:51:25 xq it processes finger, gemini, http, https, gopher
2020-06-18 16:51:38 xq every one of these protocols output the final document
2020-06-18 16:51:44 krixano I mean... you are able to put the mime type in the status bar
2020-06-18 16:51:50 xq that means for example that gopher reads until ".\r\n"
2020-06-18 16:52:13 xq the mime for gopher is determined by the URL. …/0… for example is text/plain
2020-06-18 16:52:30 xq the transported body is passed to the UI
2020-06-18 16:52:36 xq so "message body" + mime
2020-06-18 16:52:49 xq for gopher that is everything until ".\r\n"
2020-06-18 16:53:05 xq fr gemini that'S everything after the status line for any "2x" status
2020-06-18 16:53:20 xq for http that's everything past "\r\n\n"
2020-06-18 16:53:52 xq the full response from the server is never read
2020-06-18 16:54:06 xq (into a buffer)
2020-06-18 16:54:09 xq and will probably never be read in a future update
2020-06-18 16:54:19 xq to make Kristall be usable for tomasinos awesome streaming idea
2020-06-18 16:54:49 krixano This sounds more like you don't *want* to do it, instead of not being *able* to do it, lol
2020-06-18 16:55:33 xq as said:
2020-06-18 16:55:43 xq i would need to rewrite the whole protocol processing for that
2020-06-18 16:55:55 xq because gemini header is never in a buffer anywayys
2020-06-18 16:56:00 krixano Yeah, and I don't really believe that
2020-06-18 16:56:06 xq then fork and do it ;)
2020-06-18 16:56:11 krixano not until I see it, but it's fine... I don't care anymore
2020-06-18 16:56:16 xq and make it clean, so it will work for *all* future protocols
2020-06-18 16:56:21 xq also
2020-06-18 16:56:32 xq the time spent arguing would've been sufficient to code the thing you need alredy
2020-06-18 16:56:37 xq so i don't care anymore ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
2020-06-18 16:56:40 krixano All you're doing is dumping a response into a text buffer. And if you're not putting the response in a buffer, then just put it in the buffer as you stream.
2020-06-18 16:56:52 xq no, that's not correct ;)
2020-06-18 16:57:00 xq i do a lot more
2020-06-18 16:57:09 krixano Like I said, I don't care.
2020-06-18 16:58:13 ~tiwesdaeg I like bananas
2020-06-18 16:58:17 krixano Also, btw, the amount of time spend here would have allowed me to create a server using a crappy library in a crappy language with crappy GC, so not comparable
2020-06-18 16:58:47 ~tiwesdaeg 🍌 = 🍌
2020-06-18 16:59:36 xq tiwesdaeg, you're plant is dry!
2020-06-18 16:59:51 ~tiwesdaeg I have a lot of orphaned plants!
2020-06-18 17:00:14 xq sad :(
2020-06-18 17:00:15 xq why?!
2020-06-18 17:00:31 ~tiwesdaeg so many kristall installations
2020-06-18 17:00:41 ~tiwesdaeg and then I wiped one of the boxes just recently
2020-06-18 17:01:27 xq ah :D
2020-06-18 17:02:58 krixano xq, you're problem is doing what I suggested is overcomplicated because you're using overly-oop'd c++, lol
2020-06-18 17:03:02 ~tiwesdaeg time to make another plant!
2020-06-18 17:03:10 krixano * in doing what....
2020-06-18 17:03:10 xq krixano: no
2020-06-18 17:03:28 xq that's not the reason
2020-06-18 17:03:35 krixano Hmmm.... I'm not so sure
2020-06-18 17:03:39 xq the reason is that i'm having a necessary abstraction
2020-06-18 17:04:16 xq the abstraction allows me to process "message body", not "protocol encoded message"
2020-06-18 17:04:20 krixano Hm... what is this line?
2020-06-18 17:04:22 krixano > QByteArray response = socket.readAll();
2020-06-18 17:04:44 ~tiwesdaeg xq: astrobotany isn't working for me
2020-06-18 17:04:50 ~tiwesdaeg I have a key enabled
2020-06-18 17:05:00 xq huh
2020-06-18 17:05:12 xq it stores a batch of data received from the server
2020-06-18 17:05:26 xq that is either intermediatly stored until 1024 byte or the first \n
2020-06-18 17:05:31 xq then it's discarded
2020-06-18 17:05:34 xq when parsing a header
2020-06-18 17:05:44 xq otherwise it's appending that data to a message body
2020-06-18 17:05:46 xq at least for gemini
2020-06-18 17:06:07 ~tiwesdaeg I'm getting the Invalid Certificate error
2020-06-18 17:06:52 xq hm, weird
2020-06-18 17:06:55 ~tiwesdaeg created a new tab and tried again
2020-06-18 17:06:58 ~tiwesdaeg still the same
2020-06-18 17:07:12 xq can you tell me your process
2020-06-18 17:07:23 xq Kristall isn't able to determine the correct response from the server atm
2020-06-18 17:07:31 ~tiwesdaeg I clicked on my favorite shorcut
2020-06-18 17:07:48 ~tiwesdaeg clicked on on the shield an enabled the key
2020-06-18 17:08:07 ~tiwesdaeg then clicked on the 'Get to Gardening' link
2020-06-18 17:09:06 ~tiwesdaeg if I click on that link without enabling the key, same issue
2020-06-18 17:09:12 ~tiwesdaeg I don't get a popup to select the key
2020-06-18 17:09:31 xq yeah the popup is borked atm
2020-06-18 17:09:44 xq will fix itself magically in the future :D
2020-06-18 17:09:56 xq but when enabling the cert, it should work…
2020-06-18 17:10:07 ~tiwesdaeg I tried a 30 minute certificate, same issue
2020-06-18 17:10:09 ~tiwesdaeg let me restart
2020-06-18 17:10:16 krixano I haven't updated Kristall since the fix you did for me, which is definitely a good thing if breaking changes are getting pushed up any old time
2020-06-18 17:10:42 ~tiwesdaeg same results
2020-06-18 17:11:01 ~tiwesdaeg I compiled a new version this mornign that only had a couple edits
2020-06-18 17:11:12 xq krixano: there's a difference between "bleeding edge development release" and "versioned releases"
2020-06-18 17:11:24 xq can you pull the current master and try again?
2020-06-18 17:11:48 xq krixano: if you want a stable experience, keep to the versioned releases
2020-06-18 17:13:12 ~tiwesdaeg on it
2020-06-18 17:14:10 ~tiwesdaeg ooooo
2020-06-18 17:14:16 ~tiwesdaeg I forgot, we had that error
2020-06-18 17:14:22 ~tiwesdaeg still there
2020-06-18 17:14:45 xq hm
2020-06-18 17:15:22 ~tiwesdaeg my current binary was compiled 28 hours ago
2020-06-18 17:17:13 xq yeah i fixed that this morning :D
2020-06-18 17:19:21 ~tiwesdaeg filehandler.cpp still hates me
2020-06-18 17:20:12 xq oh yeah, sorry :D
2020-06-18 17:20:16 xq gonna fix that now
2020-06-18 17:20:28 @tomasino livin' on the edge
2020-06-18 17:20:52 ~tiwesdaeg you don't put Steven Tyler in my head
2020-06-18 17:21:33 @tomasino hehe
2020-06-18 17:22:43 krixano I'm just looking at Kristall's code. Wow it's so overcomplicated, lol
2020-06-18 17:22:54 xq ^^
2020-06-18 17:22:57 krixano (genuinely not trying to be mean, but yeah)
2020-06-18 17:23:05 xq then go on, make a better client ;)
2020-06-18 17:23:07 xq i challenge you
2020-06-18 17:23:13 xq same feature set, less overcomplicated code
2020-06-18 17:23:21 krixano Ok, actually I will :)
2020-06-18 17:23:26 krixano Because I was planning on this anyways
2020-06-18 17:23:27 ~tiwesdaeg diversity!
2020-06-18 17:23:27 xq including all this nice, small stuff
2020-06-18 17:23:36 krixano Yep, including everything Kristall has
2020-06-18 17:24:03 xq you're going to have a long road
2020-06-18 17:24:11 ~tiwesdaeg xq: next up, I want kristall to mow my lawn
2020-06-18 17:24:11 xq in front of you
2020-06-18 17:24:17 xq coming up, next week
2020-06-18 17:24:24 xq kristall running on smart lawn mowers!
2020-06-18 17:25:19 krixano Nah, it won't be that long to get something simple up and running, not if I'm using a decent language and decent libraries that is.
2020-06-18 17:25:46 ~tiwesdaeg krixano: what is a decent language?
2020-06-18 17:25:55 ~tiwesdaeg I know you aren't too fond of python
2020-06-18 17:25:59 krixano C++ is definitely not a decent language, lol
2020-06-18 17:26:07 krixano Although, I get why it's still used
2020-06-18 17:26:34 krixano Because there really aren't *that* many decent options, at least not ones as built-up environment-wise
2020-06-18 17:27:13 xq wel
2020-06-18 17:27:16 ~tiwesdaeg how about fortran?
2020-06-18 17:27:20 xq i don't see an alternative atm for C++
2020-06-18 17:27:22 ~tiwesdaeg I once knew fortran
2020-06-18 17:27:30 xq at least not for Kristalls project goals
2020-06-18 17:27:53 krixano Odin is a great alternative, it just needs more libraries/tools.
2020-06-18 17:28:03 krixano Zig I hear is pretty decent also
2020-06-18 17:28:14 krixano Those are really like the only options, lmao
2020-06-18 17:28:31 xq yep
2020-06-18 17:28:36 xq both Odin and Zig have one problem
2020-06-18 17:28:39 xq that C++ doesn#t
2020-06-18 17:28:52 xq you don't have a cross-platform UI toolkit
2020-06-18 17:28:58 krixano Don't need one
2020-06-18 17:29:10 krixano And it actually does
2020-06-18 17:29:10 xq so, you don't go for Kristall's features anymore?
2020-06-18 17:29:17 xq it's the reason why i chose Qt/C++ in the first place
2020-06-18 17:29:22 xq it has the batteries included
2020-06-18 17:29:23 krixano Don't need one because OpenGL is cross-platform
2020-06-18 17:29:30 xq LOL
2020-06-18 17:29:38 xq i wish you very much fun
2020-06-18 17:29:40 krixano And there's imgui, which is a *great* library
2020-06-18 17:29:47 xq ^^
2020-06-18 17:29:55 krixano (Dear Imgui)
2020-06-18 17:30:07 xq krixano, pull and recompile, should be fixed now
2020-06-18 17:30:13 xq *tiwesdaeg
2020-06-18 17:30:14 xq sorry
2020-06-18 17:30:23 krixano All the other libraries, like QT, GTK, etc. are terrible
2020-06-18 17:30:34 xq dear imgui isn't any less terrible
2020-06-18 17:30:40 krixano I disagree
2020-06-18 17:30:48 xq i've written a huge application with dear imgui
2020-06-18 17:30:51 xq i know what i'm about
2020-06-18 17:30:57 xq would never do that again
2020-06-18 17:31:07 krixano And I disagree
2020-06-18 17:32:03 @tomasino batteries are def included
2020-06-18 17:32:09 @tomasino you went from zero to my fav client overnight
2020-06-18 17:32:32 ~tiwesdaeg cool, whatever the cert bug is, it's gone
2020-06-18 17:33:51 xq the bug was that you never used any client certificates in the first place :D
2020-06-18 17:34:16 xq zig has *some* batteries included to deal with Gemini
2020-06-18 17:34:21 xq mostly thanks to me and alex nask
2020-06-18 17:34:34 krixano Alex nask?
2020-06-18 17:35:04 xq another member from the zig community
2020-06-18 17:35:12 xq together we built zig-network that supports windows and linux atm
2020-06-18 17:35:23 ~tiwesdaeg I'm keeping my sg4zMSeUVJE plant alive
2020-06-18 17:35:25 xq no BSD or Mac support though
2020-06-18 17:35:29 krixano And what exactly is zig-network?
2020-06-18 17:35:40 xq a cross-platform library for networking (tcp, udp)
2020-06-18 17:36:12 krixano So, sockets?
2020-06-18 17:36:15 xq yep
2020-06-18 17:36:18 ~tiwesdaeg back to evil yardwork
2020-06-18 17:36:21 krixano Is that all?
2020-06-18 17:36:26 makeworld Are you thinking of doing another Kristall release soon?
2020-06-18 17:36:35 xq krixano: there's std.net that supports linux/tcp only
2020-06-18 17:36:42 ~tiwesdaeg also, tomasino, I can not get that song out of my head now
2020-06-18 17:36:43 xq also zig-bearssl is the only SSL library out there for zig and it bearly supports TLS
2020-06-18 17:36:56 xq makeworld: todo-list for 0.3 is still big
2020-06-18 17:37:01 makeworld Oh yeah?
2020-06-18 17:37:05 krixano Odin has sockets too, it's just not in the core lib yet. And there's openssl bindings also
2020-06-18 17:37:16 xq makeworld: https://github.com/MasterQ32/kristall#03-release
2020-06-18 17:37:27 makeworld I just saw that yeah
2020-06-18 17:37:59 xq working on most of the options stuff atm, that should strip a lot off the list
2020-06-18 17:39:43 @tomasino Sorry tiwesdaeg
2020-06-18 17:39:53 @tomasino It's an evil super power
2020-06-18 17:46:52 paper how does SCGI in molly work? I listen on a unix socket, right? Do I get the requests plain text requests?
2020-06-18 17:49:12 krixano What's a good name for a new gemini browser?
2020-06-18 17:49:17 krixano I'm bad at naming things
2020-06-18 17:50:10 Sario528 'Gembrow' I am also bad at naming things
2020-06-18 17:53:47 xq "Double Vision", "Space Explorer"
2020-06-18 17:54:20 paper "Drunk pirate"
2020-06-18 18:01:04 krixano I started a gopher browser previously that I named "Borr", I forgot about that, lol
2020-06-18 18:10:01 xq if in doubt, use https://donjon.bin.sh/fantasy/name/
2020-06-18 18:12:08 dozens I want to make client and server called Serena and Venus
2020-06-18 18:12:20 dozens i know they're not actually twins. but it's too good not to.
2020-06-18 18:13:23 xq can you explain that?
2020-06-18 18:15:10 @tomasino Lots of famous twins to pull from
2020-06-18 18:15:16 @tomasino Romulus and Remus
2020-06-18 18:15:38 xq "Rome Browser"
2020-06-18 18:31:37 xq hmm
2020-06-18 18:31:45 xq if everything works well, i can release 0.3 before sunday :)
2020-06-18 18:32:03 makeworld Yay
2020-06-18 18:32:12 xq i restructured the roadmap a bit, removed all "fancy displaying" stuff to 0.4
2020-06-18 18:33:12 xq so 0.4 will be under the star of "more customizations and colors"
2020-06-18 18:33:51 ~tiwesdaeg emoji-favicons in .4?
2020-06-18 18:34:20 xq yep
2020-06-18 18:34:26 xq also favicon.ico as well
2020-06-18 18:34:36 xq depending on what exists
2020-06-18 18:35:12 ~tiwesdaeg I started playing around with favicon.txt for one server already
2020-06-18 18:36:28 xq yeah, i'll do that as well for my servers
2020-06-18 18:36:34 xq want to port ashet.computer to gemini as well :)
2020-06-18 18:37:01 ~tiwesdaeg you should write a gemini server and client for ashet
2020-06-18 18:37:48 xq lol
2020-06-18 18:37:53 xq LOL
2020-06-18 18:38:09 xq not going to implemnet TLS 1.2 in pure assembler :D
2020-06-18 18:46:49 makeworld Sounds like you're not a *real* geminaut
2020-06-18 18:48:51 xq why that?
2020-06-18 18:52:51 krixano What's ashet?
2020-06-18 18:53:15 xq https://ashet.computer/
2020-06-18 18:54:07 krixano > The Ashet Home Computer, or short just Ashet is a late 80ies style inspired home computer with a 16 bit cpu.
2020-06-18 18:54:07 krixano Most components of Ashet are self-developed chips and computer components, like the SPU Mark II CPU, the yet unnamed MMU, video chip and blitter DMA.
2020-06-18 18:54:10 krixano Interesting
2020-06-18 19:01:33 ⚡ xq is sad to pull in a new dependency…
2020-06-18 19:01:39 xq will make windows build even harder
2020-06-18 19:01:46 xq but it's probably worth it
2020-06-18 19:02:38 ~tiwesdaeg I mean, you don't want to write all that robot lawnmower stuff by yourself
2020-06-18 19:03:47 krixano What is all this talk about lawnmowers?
2020-06-18 19:38:50 lickthecat has quit (Client exited)
2020-06-18 20:09:54 ▬▬▶ acdw has joined #gemini
2020-06-18 20:25:31 ▬▬▶ kiwi-n45 has joined #gemini
2020-06-18 20:26:56 acdw krixano: I like "cricket" for a browser name (b/c gemini cricket!)
2020-06-18 20:27:35 ▬▬▶ lukee has joined #gemini
2020-06-18 20:27:40 krixano That's a cool name! I'll use that, if it's fine :)
2020-06-18 20:27:50 acdw awesome :)
2020-06-18 20:28:52 kiwi-n45 has quit (Connection closed)
2020-06-18 20:30:09 lukee hi folks
2020-06-18 20:30:25 lukee thought I would drop by. Its been a busy few days for me
2020-06-18 20:30:28 ~tiwesdaeg yo
2020-06-18 20:30:29 lick hi hi
2020-06-18 20:30:29 lukee in the day job
2020-06-18 20:30:45 lukee whats new?
2020-06-18 20:31:03 ~tiwesdaeg hmmm
2020-06-18 20:31:24 lukee or maybe a better question is what is the subject for disagreement today :)
2020-06-18 20:31:34 ~tiwesdaeg I can't try geminaut currently
2020-06-18 20:31:40 ~tiwesdaeg my windows partition is dead
2020-06-18 20:31:44 ~tiwesdaeg I forgot to water it
2020-06-18 20:31:50 lukee oh dear
2020-06-18 20:31:57 ~tiwesdaeg programming languages
2020-06-18 20:32:05 ~tiwesdaeg that was the subject of disagreement here
2020-06-18 20:32:25 lukee surely we can just agree there is one true language and then move on?
2020-06-18 20:32:38 ~tiwesdaeg no one liked my fortran suggestion
2020-06-18 20:33:01 lukee my favourite language is a mostly forgotten language
2020-06-18 20:33:08 lukee called Rebol
2020-06-18 20:33:15 ~tiwesdaeg I know it!
2020-06-18 20:33:18 lukee cool
2020-06-18 20:33:22 ~tiwesdaeg I just don't, you know, know it
2020-06-18 20:33:43 lukee it has zero syntax, so not much on the surface really
2020-06-18 20:33:50 ~tiwesdaeg I have gone down obscure rabbit holes just to learn about all the different languages out there
2020-06-18 20:34:12 lukee the GMI to HTML parser in GemiNaut is written in it
2020-06-18 20:34:33 lukee probably could have used another language, but it is nice to be productive
2020-06-18 20:35:28 acdw he lukee
2020-06-18 20:35:32 lukee it has a very nice parse engine which sort of knocks the socks off regex
2020-06-18 20:35:35 lukee hiya
2020-06-18 20:35:47 acdw *hi
2020-06-18 20:35:57 acdw One True Language should be brainfuck
2020-06-18 20:36:13 lukee your next gemini project is going to be written in that?
2020-06-18 20:36:15 acdw or trainfuck https://git.sr.ht/~acdw/trainfuck
2020-06-18 20:36:18 acdw oh god now
2020-06-18 20:36:19 acdw no
2020-06-18 20:37:05 lukee Apart from the "fun" of learning, I never understood the point of it
2020-06-18 20:37:37 ▬▬▶ kensanata has joined #gemini
2020-06-18 20:37:48 acdw oh yeah there's no point. I was not serious in the slightest
2020-06-18 20:38:10 acdw It would be like saying the one true language is sending electrical signals thru wires manually
2020-06-18 20:38:16 lukee I was impressed to see someone did a haskell client
2020-06-18 20:38:47 lukee Its probably a 4 line function does the whole thing
2020-06-18 20:38:48 acdw that is pretty cool! I like haskell
2020-06-18 20:39:00 lukee that took 3 weeks to conceive
2020-06-18 20:39:04 acdw I tried to look up Rebol and found this https://www.wearerebol.com/
2020-06-18 20:39:42 lukee I think it is a place somewhere in US
2020-06-18 20:39:47 lukee the language is this one
2020-06-18 20:39:48 lukee http://www.rebol.com/
2020-06-18 20:40:07 lukee it sort of got abandoned by its creator Carl Sassenrath
2020-06-18 20:40:32 kensanata Does anybody in here speak Perl? I can't seem access the client cert from the server module I'm using, Net::Server
2020-06-18 20:40:37 lukee but it did get opensourced
2020-06-18 20:40:38 lukee https://github.com/rebol/rebol
2020-06-18 20:40:53 acdw oh this is cool
2020-06-18 20:41:14 lukee there is a new implementation being written called Red, but it is forever beta
2020-06-18 20:41:53 lukee https://www.red-lang.org/
2020-06-18 20:41:56 acdw THAT's where I've heard of it!
2020-06-18 20:42:35 lukee I dont want to go on about it, but its a very interesting language
2020-06-18 20:42:40 makeworld Browser ready for release!!
2020-06-18 20:42:42 ~tiwesdaeg is ruby still a thing?
2020-06-18 20:42:46 lukee It is the inspiration behind JSON
2020-06-18 20:42:54 makeworld Anyone want to test out a binary before I post about it and stuff?
2020-06-18 20:42:57 lukee a new browser?
2020-06-18 20:43:04 makeworld Yes, for the the terminal
2020-06-18 20:43:07 lukee sure
2020-06-18 20:43:15 makeworld Like Bombadillo but fancier
2020-06-18 20:43:17 lukee can it run on a pi?
2020-06-18 20:43:21 makeworld Okay, what OS and arch?
2020-06-18 20:43:28 makeworld It should be able to
2020-06-18 20:43:36 lukee I can run bombadillo on it
2020-06-18 20:43:42 ~tiwesdaeg linux 64 bit
2020-06-18 20:43:46 lukee what is it written in?
2020-06-18 20:43:57 acdw makeworld I'll try it when I get home!
2020-06-18 20:44:01 acdw or maybe at work if I can :)
2020-06-18 20:44:14 makeworld It's written in Go
2020-06-18 20:44:14 ~tiwesdaeg you're going to steal my passwords with your binary, aren't you?
2020-06-18 20:44:17 makeworld Lol
2020-06-18 20:44:44 lukee cool
2020-06-18 20:44:57 lukee my pi is armv61
2020-06-18 20:45:13 makeworld Ok, I'll build for that in a sec
2020-06-18 20:45:18 lukee I did get gemget running on it once I removed the progressbar
2020-06-18 20:45:49 makeworld Gemget would still work as a binary with the progress bar on it
2020-06-18 20:46:03 makeworld tiwesdaeg: https://ttm.sh/QTN.bin
2020-06-18 20:46:34 lukee yeah but I want to hack on it :)
2020-06-18 20:46:44 lukee when I get around to it
2020-06-18 20:46:48 makeworld Fair enough ha
2020-06-18 20:46:54 makeworld K building for you now
2020-06-18 20:46:59 makeworld I'll upload code in a sec
2020-06-18 20:47:36 ~tiwesdaeg much colors, very good
2020-06-18 20:47:52 makeworld Ha thanks. Yeah that's probably the best feature
2020-06-18 20:48:02 makeworld You can navigate links in a different way, with enter and tab
2020-06-18 20:48:11 makeworld Press ? to pull up the help
2020-06-18 20:48:49 makeworld lukee: https://ttm.sh/QTH.bin
2020-06-18 20:49:01 makeworld For RPi
2020-06-18 20:49:06 ~tiwesdaeg how does it handle colors?
2020-06-18 20:49:32 ~tiwesdaeg interesting looking
2020-06-18 20:50:07 makeworld What do you mean?
2020-06-18 20:50:08 ~tiwesdaeg getting ansi colors, but it's sort of weird
2020-06-18 20:50:20 makeworld Oh yeah, I experienced that
2020-06-18 20:50:38 makeworld It's because it uses the official definition of the colours, it tries to be true
2020-06-18 20:50:48 makeworld That's not my code, that's the TUI library
2020-06-18 20:50:53 makeworld https://jonasjacek.github.io/colors/
2020-06-18 20:51:01 ~tiwesdaeg https://ttm.sh/QTg.png
2020-06-18 20:51:06 lukee I got it loaded let me have a look around
2020-06-18 20:51:40 makeworld Ohh that
2020-06-18 20:51:43 kensanata Weird. You have to hit RET before you can use TAB and RET to navigate?
2020-06-18 20:51:49 ~tiwesdaeg I also just realized all my links are wrong on tilde.pink
2020-06-18 20:51:59 lukee I'm getting blue links on a black background - can I change the colours?
2020-06-18 20:52:04 makeworld tiwesdaeg: That's a bug with the library. When it processes ANSI codes, it doesn't reset the text background, so later text is messed up.
2020-06-18 20:52:22 makeworld kensanata: Yes to enable the mode
2020-06-18 20:52:36 makeworld lukee: Not right now
2020-06-18 20:52:39 ~tiwesdaeg it gives me my default background color for the terminal
2020-06-18 20:52:39 makeworld But I'll add that
2020-06-18 20:52:51 makeworld tiwesdaeg: Yes, that's the bug unfortunately
2020-06-18 20:53:00 makeworld I filed this: https://gitlab.com/tslocum/cview/-/issues/25
2020-06-18 20:53:56 ~tiwesdaeg links fixed yay
2020-06-18 20:54:02 ~tiwesdaeg I for the tailing /
2020-06-18 20:54:37 ~tiwesdaeg it's a cgi script that displays links to user gemini capsules if they have an index.gmi
2020-06-18 20:55:25 makeworld Oh nice
2020-06-18 20:55:29 makeworld Okay code is up!
2020-06-18 20:55:30 makeworld https://github.com/makeworld-the-better-one/amfora
2020-06-18 20:55:44 makeworld Bug reports filing initiate
2020-06-18 20:55:50 ~tiwesdaeg I'm calling it QTN.bin for life
2020-06-18 20:56:15 lukee I got it loading up my home page
2020-06-18 20:56:16 lukee https://imgur.com/a/XVDf1Zi
2020-06-18 20:56:37 lukee Still not sure how I activate one of the links
2020-06-18 20:57:07 lukee does it have an official name?
2020-06-18 20:57:27 ~tiwesdaeg I'm guessing amfora?
2020-06-18 20:57:47 ~tiwesdaeg those thingies you put stuff in
2020-06-18 20:58:01 lukee oh sorry yes was using it and missed the link above
2020-06-18 20:58:07 ~tiwesdaeg then when your ship sinks, people can find them many years later
2020-06-18 20:58:16 makeworld lukee: Hmm, what terminal is that? The color seem wrong
2020-06-18 20:58:20 makeworld Yes that haha
2020-06-18 20:58:39 lukee that is PuTTY on windows
2020-06-18 20:58:42 makeworld It's because the Gemini twins are sometimes represented as a pair of Amphora. But the ph is harder to type then an f haha
2020-06-18 20:59:06 makeworld Huh
2020-06-18 20:59:08 lukee unlike the rest of you I dont live natively in linux
2020-06-18 20:59:25 makeworld I can send a Windows binary if you want
2020-06-18 20:59:31 makeworld Could you try that actually?
2020-06-18 20:59:35 ~tiwesdaeg lukee: you can have my broken windows
2020-06-18 20:59:46 lukee I do have a windows client already ;)
2020-06-18 20:59:53 lukee but yes happy to try it
2020-06-18 20:59:56 lukee :)
2020-06-18 21:00:18 makeworld Yeah, not to replace it or anything lol
2020-06-18 21:00:27 lukee no worries
2020-06-18 21:01:09 lukee what I don't have in cross-platform, I try to make up in other ways
2020-06-18 21:02:24 makeworld Lmk if just double clicking it works. I don't know, you might have to open a terminal first
2020-06-18 21:02:48 makeworld https://gofile.io/d/1D50OS
2020-06-18 21:03:00 acdw aw yuss gonna use this @ work
2020-06-18 21:03:24 makeworld Ayy
2020-06-18 21:04:26 lukee Got to fix those colours :)
2020-06-18 21:04:27 lukee https://imgur.com/a/9rIYgA4
2020-06-18 21:04:52 makeworld Oof sorry
2020-06-18 21:05:03 acdw wut wut https://imgur.com/a/pTFYtAQ
2020-06-18 21:05:33 makeworld It's a bit softer on my computer lukee, I think maybe Windows doesn't have support for extra colors?
2020-06-18 21:05:45 acdw did you implement your own pager?
2020-06-18 21:05:52 makeworld Wdym?
2020-06-18 21:06:00 acdw for the browser.
2020-06-18 21:06:00 makeworld Also I see you're using thelounge, nice
2020-06-18 21:06:01 makeworld Like me
2020-06-18 21:06:09 makeworld No but what do you mean by pager
2020-06-18 21:06:12 makeworld Like the tabs?
2020-06-18 21:06:51 lukee Windows protected your PC. Run anyway?
2020-06-18 21:07:17 acdw haha yes
2020-06-18 21:07:29 acdw yes to the lounge and also to run anyway
2020-06-18 21:07:37 acdw i mena it's your computer
2020-06-18 21:07:40 acdw use it when you need it
2020-06-18 21:08:13 acdw makeworld: like the `less` program, the thing that makes it only show some of the page at a time
2020-06-18 21:08:27 acdw instead of just puking the whole gemini page into the terminal
2020-06-18 21:08:50 lukee yes it works fine on windows
2020-06-18 21:08:51 lukee https://imgur.com/a/TOQDX7f
2020-06-18 21:08:59 makeworld Oh yeah it does that. But I didn't implement that acdq
2020-06-18 21:09:01 makeworld *acdq
2020-06-18 21:09:08 makeworld Argh I mean acdw lol
2020-06-18 21:09:11 acdw hahahahhahahahhahaha
2020-06-18 21:09:21 lukee however bullets seem to be missing
2020-06-18 21:09:33 acdw Okay cool. I kep thinking about doing that in bash but I think that'd be too crazy
2020-06-18 21:09:39 lukee they come out as "missing code point" glyphs
2020-06-18 21:09:48 lukee you can see in the screenshot
2020-06-18 21:09:57 makeworld lukee: It uses unicode for bullets
2020-06-18 21:10:05 makeworld You can disable that in the config though
2020-06-18 21:10:07 lukee I'm sure it does, but...
2020-06-18 21:10:18 makeworld %APPDATA%\amfora\config.toml
2020-06-18 21:10:43 lukee is it a windows terminal thing then?
2020-06-18 21:10:44 makeworld Change it to `bullets = false`
2020-06-18 21:10:47 makeworld Yes it is
2020-06-18 21:10:56 makeworld Default Windows terminal sucks it seems lol
2020-06-18 21:11:05 lukee does that mean it wont like other unicode code points
2020-06-18 21:11:33 makeworld Likely?
2020-06-18 21:11:55 makeworld Go to makeworld.gq/favicon.txt and see
2020-06-18 21:12:10 acdw oh yeah, windows terminal SUX
2020-06-18 21:12:30 lukee yeah same problem
2020-06-18 21:12:49 lukee the colours are more attractive though!
2020-06-18 21:13:05 makeworld Can anyone recommend a better Windows terminal to put in the README?
2020-06-18 21:13:06 makeworld Lol
2020-06-18 21:14:02 lukee my eyes stopped bleeding
2020-06-18 21:14:36 lukee jokes aside, this is really nice client
2020-06-18 21:14:36 makeworld What did you do?
2020-06-18 21:14:39 makeworld Thanks :)
2020-06-18 21:15:16 lukee I got the hang of the navigation now: space: number
2020-06-18 21:15:36 makeworld Yes
2020-06-18 21:15:47 lukee no I mean comparing the windows rendition to the one over PuTTY
2020-06-18 21:15:49 makeworld Or you can press Enter and Tab and Shift-Tab around
2020-06-18 21:15:55 makeworld Ohh
2020-06-18 21:16:03 makeworld Glad it's better
2020-06-18 21:16:20 lukee shame about the unicode in the terminal - does seem surprising.
2020-06-18 21:16:42 lukee Windows is much better at that kind of thing these days...
2020-06-18 21:16:43 dozens is Konpeito in here? i've been trying to access their new mix tape all day, but the request keeps timing out
2020-06-18 21:17:45 dozens i was able to get the page once early this morning
2020-06-18 21:17:48 dozens gemini://konpeito.media
2020-06-18 21:18:33 makeworld Yeah it's down rn
2020-06-18 21:19:03 lukee already I think this is the most usable terminal client
2020-06-18 21:19:15 lukee if you dont know vi or emacs
2020-06-18 21:19:22 lukee like us norms
2020-06-18 21:20:34 lukee there is another terminal client - name escapes me - I think written in rust
2020-06-18 21:20:48 tadzik asuka
2020-06-18 21:21:49 lukee I couldnt get it installed on my barebones pi
2020-06-18 21:23:00 lukee I tried bollux too - which seemed to work ok
2020-06-18 21:23:07 makeworld Bombadillo is pretty similar, but mine just adds some fancy stuff like colors and tabs, etc. Thanks!
2020-06-18 21:23:08 acdw :D
2020-06-18 21:23:25 makeworld And I'm going to be adding a lot more stuff later, as you can see on the README
2020-06-18 21:23:29 acdw lukee any tips you can give me to make bollux better let me know
2020-06-18 21:23:38 acdw sorry to hijack this convo btw but it my bebe
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2020-06-18 21:27:22 lukee I really like the text rendering in bollux - with underline and paler links.
2020-06-18 21:28:05 lukee I'm probably not the best person to advise on the usability of terminal applications. I dont spend enough time in them
2020-06-18 21:29:37 lukee I think perhaps another observation is that when you are choosing link to traverse to, it brings you out of seeing the page content, so you are switching context
2020-06-18 21:29:54 lukee and so you might forget why you wanted to go to which link.
2020-06-18 21:30:15 lukee so it would be nice to choose a link whilst seeing the underlying page text
2020-06-18 21:30:45 lukee My overall impression was good though, and I got further using it than other terminal clients
2020-06-18 21:31:14 ⚡ lukee thinks its great there is a diversity of clients being made
2020-06-18 21:32:03 acdw thanks lukee! I thought a lot about style. As far as the link thing goes, I hate it too; but it's really the only way I can do it that I know of while using `less` and `bash`
2020-06-18 21:32:27 lukee yes its pretty impressive
2020-06-18 21:32:27 acdw That's the #1 pain point in the user interface rn I think
2020-06-18 21:32:33 acdw that and no bookmarks
2020-06-18 21:32:36 acdw but those shouldn't be hard
2020-06-18 21:32:44 ⚡ acdw also loves the diversity of clients
2020-06-18 21:32:57 ⚡ acdw might write a post about how we should all just write our own
2020-06-18 21:33:00 dozens bollux and av98 and bombadillo are my faves atm
2020-06-18 21:33:21 acdw bombadillo is cool, and av98 is way more user-friendly than I thought at first
2020-06-18 21:33:30 lukee I just about managed to open a page in bombadillo, but I struggled with it
2020-06-18 21:33:30 acdw I like the kind of command-line feel
2020-06-18 21:33:57 acdw IMO the <Space> shortcut isn't really good feeling -- I prefer 'o' for Open
2020-06-18 21:34:03 acdw or 'l' for Link
2020-06-18 21:34:13 acdw I use <space> for scroll most of the time
2020-06-18 21:35:00 lukee are there established conventions for terminal UIs for user interaction?
2020-06-18 21:35:25 lukee I guess there are the keyboard bindings for vi and emacs as one reference point
2020-06-18 21:35:35 xq yeah
2020-06-18 21:35:38 xq or the bindings of less
2020-06-18 21:35:40 xq or links
2020-06-18 21:35:42 xq or lynx
2020-06-18 21:35:42 xq :D
2020-06-18 21:36:04 lukee links is nice
2020-06-18 21:36:12 lukee with the pop down menus
2020-06-18 21:36:26 lukee easier to learn perhaps for more infrequent users
2020-06-18 21:36:50 lukee like me
2020-06-18 21:39:47 lukee are there any terminal clients with mouse support? or is that just wrong?
2020-06-18 21:40:25 xq yes, there is
2020-06-18 21:40:33 xq mouse in terminal is semi-common
2020-06-18 21:41:05 kensanata it always irritates me, as the regular mouse interaction I expect is usually not available.
2020-06-18 21:42:52 acdw yeah I think emacs does a lot of mouse
2020-06-18 21:42:54 kensanata has quit (The TLS connection was non-properly terminated.)
2020-06-18 21:42:56 acdw vim has :set mouse=a
2020-06-18 21:43:04 acdw I scroll with mouse all the time in vim
2020-06-18 21:43:10 acdw As far as conventsions, I'm not sure
2020-06-18 21:45:33 makeworld I will support mouse eventually in mine
2020-06-18 21:45:37 makeworld Optionally though ofc
2020-06-18 21:45:47 makeworld Uploading binaries now
2020-06-18 21:45:55 makeworld You'll see them here: https://github.com/makeworld-the-better-one/amfora/releases/tag/v1.0.0
2020-06-18 21:46:05 acdw nice!
2020-06-18 21:46:13 acdw I was trying to use mouse and it wasn't working lol
2020-06-18 21:46:17 acdw I use mose a lot more in windows
2020-06-18 21:46:45 acdw does anyone have a server with a self-signed certificate? I'm having an issue with s_client on another server that is self-signed and I'd love some other data points
2020-06-18 21:47:07 lukee amfora just got its first github star
2020-06-18 21:48:06 lukee mine is
2020-06-18 21:48:14 lukee gemini://gemini.marmaladefoo.com
2020-06-18 21:48:50 rb100 mine is self signed: gemini://rainbow-100.com
2020-06-18 21:49:32 krixano has quit (Ping timeout: 120 seconds)
2020-06-18 21:49:55 xq random-projects.net is also self-signed
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2020-06-18 21:51:39 acdw thanks yall!
2020-06-18 21:51:46 ⚡ xq just used � in his code for the first time
2020-06-18 21:53:55 lukee @rb100 - great to see another windows client
2020-06-18 21:54:18 lukee I managed to get this working just now - straightforward
2020-06-18 21:54:57 lukee but I wasnt expecting... Fortran!
2020-06-18 21:55:04 rb100 lukee: it was fun to write. sped up layout today, need to make another build.
2020-06-18 21:55:22 lukee can you get wheelmouse scroll to work?
2020-06-18 21:56:14 rb100 on mine? no, probably not anytime soon. it's constrained by the graphics toolkit it uses
2020-06-18 21:56:40 acdw think you all could also tell me how you req'd your keys? Feel free to PM me if you don't want to spam this channel
2020-06-18 21:56:46 lukee oh ok. I guess the wheelmouse didnt exist when they invented Fortran!
2020-06-18 21:56:47 acdw This issue I'm seeing is sooo weird
2020-06-18 21:57:16 rb100 it's written in Fortran 2003/2008, not exactly what you're thinking, i suspect
2020-06-18 21:58:04 lukee honestly I have no idea what to expect. I only heard of someone who was building meteorological models in Fortran
2020-06-18 21:59:30 rb100 it makes heavy use of abstract derived types in Fortran such that i could implement win32 and dumb terminal renderers and most of the code doesn't care
2020-06-18 22:00:51 lukee What attracted you to write it in Fortran?
2020-06-18 22:01:17 rb100 i write an IDE for Fortran for a living
2020-06-18 22:01:25 lukee that makes sens
2020-06-18 22:01:30 lukee *sense
2020-06-18 22:01:33 rb100 good dogfooding
2020-06-18 22:01:49 lukee yeah we all need to eat up our dogfood. It is healthy for us
2020-06-18 22:02:52 makeworld Wheelmouse scroll works on mine despite not enabling the mouse
2020-06-18 22:03:02 makeworld But that might be my terminal being smart
2020-06-18 22:03:11 makeworld Sending arrow keys on scroll or something
2020-06-18 22:03:38 xq ouhauaha
2020-06-18 22:03:43 xq i found the perfect test file
2020-06-18 22:03:44 xq https://www.w3.org/2001/06/utf-8-test/UTF-8-demo.html
2020-06-18 22:03:50 lukee Actually the arrow keys dont work for me on windows - maybe it is a platform thing
2020-06-18 22:05:25 lukee @xq: that is quite succinct and evil at the same time
2020-06-18 22:05:40 xq yep
2020-06-18 22:05:55 lukee still missing emojis - gotta have emojis
2020-06-18 22:07:44 xq oh funky
2020-06-18 22:07:49 xq i "killed" gemserv :D
2020-06-18 22:08:00 xq is there a gemini server that is small and can configure mime types?
2020-06-18 22:08:04 acdw oh and you have to be careful with emojis esp with st terminal -- some of them can crash the terminal
2020-06-18 22:08:37 rb100 has quit (Client exited)
2020-06-18 22:16:27 @tomasino molly brown considered small?
2020-06-18 22:17:16 xq can i configure the mime type per file?
2020-06-18 22:17:24 xq guessing doesn't work
2020-06-18 22:17:29 xq otherwise i'll just hack something up
2020-06-18 22:20:10 xq ha
2020-06-18 22:20:15 xq got it working *rofl*
2020-06-18 22:21:21 @tomasino yep
2020-06-18 22:21:24 @tomasino .molly files
2020-06-18 22:21:27 @tomasino it's not documented yet
2020-06-18 22:21:35 @tomasino they're structured like .htaccess ones, apparently
2020-06-18 22:22:29 xq ah
2020-06-18 22:22:58 xq cat "$1" | ncat --ssl --ssl-cert ../cert.pem --ssl-key ../key.pem --listen 1965
2020-06-18 22:23:01 xq i'm doing this bastard atm :D
2020-06-18 22:29:14 xq okay, i'm really happy now
2020-06-18 22:29:40 @tomasino yay
2020-06-18 22:30:13 acdw xq: is that a server !?
2020-06-18 22:30:14 @tomasino xq, is there a setting to have the document outline expand automatically?
2020-06-18 22:30:20 xq acdw: correct!
2020-06-18 22:30:27 acdw :O
2020-06-18 22:30:29 xq tomasino: not yet
2020-06-18 22:30:40 acdw I did not need to see that, I'm going to want to code a bash gemini server next
2020-06-18 22:30:45 xq haha, have fun :D
2020-06-18 22:30:54 @tomasino bollux needs a partner
2020-06-18 22:30:58 xq but: that "server" will respond with static text
2020-06-18 22:31:06 acdw oh tht's fine lol
2020-06-18 22:31:07 xq tomasino: will get an update for the next roud! :)
2020-06-18 22:31:15 @tomasino :D
2020-06-18 22:31:17 acdw hmm..... bastor
2020-06-18 22:31:25 xq acdw: no, without having a change to read input atm :D
2020-06-18 22:31:27 acdw shaster?
2020-06-18 22:31:37 xq but let me compile a small video of the newest kristall feature
2020-06-18 22:31:41 xq it's a sneaky one
2020-06-18 22:31:44 xq probably no one will ever notice
2020-06-18 22:32:01 acdw oh you mean it'll only ever serve one file
2020-06-18 22:32:15 acdw ah hahah yes
2020-06-18 22:32:18 acdw I get it now
2020-06-18 22:32:32 acdw motherfuckinggeminicapsule.com
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2020-06-18 22:34:30 xq acdw: lol :D
2020-06-18 22:34:41 xq https://mq32.de/public/kristall-07.mp4
2020-06-18 22:34:45 xq enjoy this piece of demo video
2020-06-18 22:36:15 acdw ooh
2020-06-18 22:36:20 acdw automatic charset detectino?
2020-06-18 22:36:36 acdw or an in-client localhost gemini server with the UTF test character set?
2020-06-18 22:36:37 acdw :P
2020-06-18 22:36:46 xq charset conversion
2020-06-18 22:36:57 xq i now serve *any* iconv supported charset
2020-06-18 22:37:01 xq should be enough
2020-06-18 22:37:02 xq :D
2020-06-18 22:37:11 xq btw, some of the torture tests serve invalid files D
2020-06-18 22:37:34 @tomasino xq, how are you returning the header for gemini?
2020-06-18 22:37:40 @tomasino with your netcat thing
2020-06-18 22:37:43 acdw oh that's awesome xq, good job
2020-06-18 22:37:50 xq that's just a bunch of scripts
2020-06-18 22:38:09 xq yeah, i Kristall now starts to break torture tests
2020-06-18 22:38:39 xq tomasino: https://gist.github.com/MasterQ32/19b7f15d9361dda1e3a6e611b0c97a77#file-serve-sh
2020-06-18 22:39:40 @tomasino ahh, it's just in the file
2020-06-18 22:40:05 xq yep :D
2020-06-18 22:41:46 @tomasino ncat is neat
2020-06-18 22:41:51 xq yep
2020-06-18 22:41:51 @tomasino different switches than nc ?
2020-06-18 22:42:11 @tomasino trying to duplicate what you did here on a basic file test
2020-06-18 22:42:13 makeworld xq: Nice, that's nifty
2020-06-18 22:42:31 xq ncat is different afaik
2020-06-18 22:42:54 acdw > nc and netcat are two names for the same program (typically, one will be a symlink to the other). Though—for plenty of confusion—there are two different implementations of Netcat ("traditional" and "OpenBSD"), and they take different options and have different features. Ncat is the same idea, but from the Nmap project.
2020-06-18 22:43:05 acdw https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/368155/what-are-the-differences-between-ncat-nc-and-netcat
2020-06-18 22:43:30 @tomasino ahha
2020-06-18 22:43:31 @tomasino thanks
2020-06-18 22:43:48 @tomasino i see a manpage for ncat for ubuntu, but i don't have it and it's not in apt by that name
2020-06-18 22:43:57 acdw also in networking fun times, did you know that gawk can do networking!?!?!?
2020-06-18 22:44:16 @tomasino i guessi have to install nmap maybe and it comes with that?
2020-06-18 22:44:24 @tomasino yeah, i did know about gawk networking
2020-06-18 22:44:27 @tomasino it's pretty awesome
2020-06-18 22:45:31 acdw part of me is like YUS the other part is like ... bu bu muh Unix
2020-06-18 22:45:40 acdw do one thing and do it well
2020-06-18 22:45:48 @tomasino yeah, it was in nmap
2020-06-18 22:46:03 acdw tho it *is* gnu so
2020-06-18 22:46:46 @tomasino well, bollux can see my gemini file
2020-06-18 22:47:03 @tomasino but av98 and kristall are like, what are you daft?
2020-06-18 22:47:13 xq huh, what file do you mean?
2020-06-18 22:47:19 @tomasino i just tried to use my letsencrypt keys and serve a test file on gopher.black
2020-06-18 22:47:19 acdw awww yeah
2020-06-18 22:47:48 @tomasino oh, it's probably the line endings on the header
2020-06-18 22:47:53 @tomasino lemme try that
2020-06-18 22:48:23 makeworld I've looked in to the ncat thing before
2020-06-18 22:48:27 makeworld There are many versions btw
2020-06-18 22:48:34 makeworld BSD, GNU, nmap, etc
2020-06-18 22:48:41 makeworld It's tricky sometimes
2020-06-18 22:48:45 @tomasino oh, no... i see... once i connect it stops listening
2020-06-18 22:48:59 makeworld Oh also I have binaries for all kinds of arches and OSes for amfora now!
2020-06-18 22:49:11 makeworld https://github.com/makeworld-the-better-one/amfora/releases/tag/v1.0.0
2020-06-18 22:49:20 makeworld I will be making a post on the mailing list
2020-06-18 22:50:01 @tomasino nice
2020-06-18 22:50:02 xq tomasino: Kristall should tell you pretty much what the error was on a protocol violation
2020-06-18 22:50:30 @tomasino yeah, i didn't realize that upon connection it would stop listening, so bollux got it and then it wasn't running anymore for the others
2020-06-18 22:50:39 acdw oh
2020-06-18 22:50:41 @tomasino when i restarted it and tested Kristall it was a cert error
2020-06-18 22:50:52 @tomasino The host name did not match any of the valid hosts for this certificate
2020-06-18 22:50:59 @tomasino which makes sense
2020-06-18 22:51:10 @tomasino but i can get around it!
2020-06-18 22:51:24 acdw here I was thinking I was winning the gemini browser wars
2020-06-18 22:51:54 xq tomasino: yeah, i will add some "ignore" button some day :D
2020-06-18 22:53:31 @tomasino https://ttm.sh/QTM.png
2020-06-18 22:53:59 @tomasino not sure why ncat ends after a single request. I guess i need to put it in a loop
2020-06-18 22:54:13 xq that's how ncat works :D
2020-06-18 22:54:17 xq itÄs single-transaction
2020-06-18 22:54:26 @tomasino ahhha
2020-06-18 22:54:54 xq also: nice screenshot :D
2020-06-18 22:55:40 @tomasino :D
2020-06-18 22:55:46 @tomasino time to make this sliiiighly more robust
2020-06-18 22:57:41 acdw has quit (Client exited)
2020-06-18 23:02:29 xq ha, perfect
2020-06-18 23:02:42 xq fixed the unicode thingy in enhanced text rendering (*highlights*)
2020-06-18 23:03:26 xq and now i should go to sleep
2020-06-18 23:03:27 xq gn8!
2020-06-18 23:03:37 makeworld See ya!
2020-06-18 23:05:08 xq 0.3 is coming closer!
2020-06-18 23:07:59 @tomasino gemini://tomasino.org
2020-06-18 23:08:07 @tomasino renders fine in kristall
2020-06-18 23:08:16 @tomasino av98 opens it as a text file in another window
2020-06-18 23:11:51 makeworld A nice big unwieldy demo GIF
2020-06-18 23:11:52 makeworld https://raw.githubusercontent.com/makeworld-the-better-one/amfora/master/demo-large.gif
2020-06-18 23:15:03 @tomasino https://ttm.sh/QT6.txt
2020-06-18 23:15:30 @tomasino xq's thingy, made into a nice little ongoing server of a single text/gemini file
2020-06-18 23:23:35 @tomasino better yet, just go to gemini://tomasino.org
2020-06-18 23:34:21 @tomasino amfora is pretty!
2020-06-18 23:44:51 makeworld Thanks!
2020-06-18 23:45:03 makeworld The colors make a bigger difference than I thought they would
2020-06-19 00:31:34 makeworld https://pastebin.com/raw/NKnSYhqt
2020-06-19 00:31:45 makeworld Example gemini file I made for my gf to help her learn
2020-06-19 00:36:45 Sario528 Is the list of clients on gemini.circumlunar.space still being updated?
2020-06-19 00:38:25 makeworld yes
2020-06-19 00:38:37 makeworld On Gemini anyway
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2020-06-19 07:19:23 xq goooood morning
2020-06-19 07:46:43 @julienxx hello
2020-06-19 08:23:13 @tomasino Yo
2020-06-19 08:23:28 @tomasino tomasino.org is working again for a bit
2020-06-19 08:24:04 xq tomasino, neat!
2020-06-19 08:24:24 @tomasino I need to generate a new cert so I can run it without sudo. Otherwise it will eventually ask me for a password again and stop working until I log in and enter it
2020-06-19 08:25:08 xq :D
2020-06-19 08:25:33 xq openssl req -new -x509 -config cert-config.cfg -nodes -newkey ec:<(openssl ecparam -name secp384r1) -keyout key.pem -out cert.pem -days 1
2020-06-19 08:25:48 xq you can also omit -config cert-config.cfg
2020-06-19 08:26:46 xq then you have to set the stuff by hand
2020-06-19 08:27:52 @tomasino Thanks!
2020-06-19 08:28:10 @tomasino In an hour or two when I get out of bed, then. ;)
2020-06-19 08:28:24 xq :D
2020-06-19 08:28:29 xq slacker! *laughing*
2020-06-19 08:28:35 xq what TZ are you in?
2020-06-19 08:28:40 xq i remember something about iceland?
2020-06-19 08:28:44 @tomasino Yep
2020-06-19 08:28:49 @tomasino UTC
2020-06-19 08:28:54 @tomasino It's 8:30
2020-06-19 08:29:00 xq well, okay : D
2020-06-19 08:29:04 ⚡ xq retreats the slacker
2020-06-19 08:29:22 @tomasino Back in a bit
2020-06-19 08:29:25 @tomasino Zzzz
2020-06-19 08:35:42 paper is there a way to change the self-signed cert without breaking TOFU? I don't see a way, is there?
2020-06-19 08:37:55 xq nope, there is afaik none
2020-06-19 08:37:55 xq make certificates long-lived for tofu
2020-06-19 08:38:38 xq tomasino: new feature in kristall: you can now ignore invalid certificates and fetch the contents anyways
2020-06-19 08:39:07 paper I have a long-lived certificate, but someone reported I have v1 cert instead of v3... Plus, I would like a smaller cert than 2048 rsa
2020-06-19 08:40:25 xq yeah, same here
2020-06-19 09:18:21 lukee has quit (Client exited)
2020-06-19 10:13:00 `epochbot just because certs expire, does that mean the key should have to expire too?
2020-06-19 10:13:32 `epochbot people could keep a private key, and just re-self-sign every week if they wanted
2020-06-19 10:15:32 xq hey `epochbot
2020-06-19 10:15:45 xq yeah that's my proposal: create new certs, but keep the pubkey
2020-06-19 10:15:52 xq → SSH .authorized_keys will work
2020-06-19 10:16:03 `epochbot oh, alright.
2020-06-19 10:16:20 `epochbot I hadn't read enough backlog I guess.
2020-06-19 10:17:55 xq nah, i proposed it roughly a week ago D:
2020-06-19 10:19:51 Ernoz has quit (Client exited)
2020-06-19 10:20:20 ▬▬▶ Ernoz has joined #gemini
2020-06-19 10:25:22 `epochbot o.0
2020-06-19 10:26:06 `epochbot well, I'm for it. don't auth against certs, auth against the keys in the certs ftw.
2020-06-19 10:27:10 bacterio has quit (Ping timeout: 120 seconds)
2020-06-19 10:28:43 xq hey, me too
2020-06-19 10:30:38 ▬▬▶ bacterio has joined #gemini
2020-06-19 10:33:24 Ernoz has quit (Client exited)
2020-06-19 10:33:35 ▬▬▶ Ernoz has joined #gemini
2020-06-19 10:39:31 `epochbot psssst.
2020-06-19 10:39:34 `epochbot gemi.ni
2020-06-19 10:39:44 ⚡ `epochbot checks who owns "ni" TLD
2020-06-19 10:39:47 `epochbot nigeria maybe?
2020-06-19 10:39:56 `epochbot nicaragua
2020-06-19 10:40:19 `epochbot ge.mini
2020-06-19 10:40:23 ⚡ `epochbot checks mini TLD
2020-06-19 10:41:50 `epochbot won't be able to get gemi.ni
2020-06-19 10:42:08 `epochbot it is like .uk, .gov.ni, .co.ni, .org.ni
2020-06-19 10:42:21 `epochbot namecheap didn't have ".mini"
2020-06-19 10:43:00 `epochbot .mini is "not available for public registration" on 101domain.com
2020-06-19 10:43:02 `epochbot merp. oh well.
2020-06-19 10:44:57 `epochbot oh, gemi.ni is /only/ 600 USD
2020-06-19 10:45:08 `epochbot https://www.nicaraguahost.com/domaincheck?name=gemi.ni
2020-06-19 10:50:19 xq damn
2020-06-19 10:50:31 xq btw: cyber.space is reserved by IANA :D
2020-06-19 10:53:11 `epochbot it is saying "listed for sale" when I try to go there
2020-06-19 10:53:41 `epochbot $460/mo
2020-06-19 10:54:15 `epochbot cyb.org is... still registered from 1993
2020-06-19 10:57:33 krixano has quit (Ping timeout: 120 seconds)
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2020-06-19 11:57:50 @tomasino there, i think my tomasino.org experiment will be a bit more resilient now
2020-06-19 11:58:17 xq tomasino: pipe a "date" in there!
2020-06-19 11:58:35 @tomasino how do you mean?
2020-06-19 12:00:03 @tomasino i tried the line you'd added above, but when i tried to visit the site all the clients said it was a self-signed cert and untrusted
2020-06-19 12:00:16 @tomasino so i just cp'd my lets encrypt over to another folder that didn't need sudo for now
2020-06-19 12:00:27 @tomasino they'll expire in a couple weeks, so i'll figure out something by then
2020-06-19 12:00:31 xq your printf
2020-06-19 12:00:38 xq you can also add a "$(date)" in there :)
2020-06-19 12:00:48 xq and make a small header that shows that it's a live-served file :D
2020-06-19 12:01:30 @tomasino ahhh
2020-06-19 12:01:31 @tomasino i see
2020-06-19 12:01:33 @tomasino yes, i could!
2020-06-19 12:01:35 @tomasino uno momento
2020-06-19 12:04:33 @tomasino done
2020-06-19 12:07:21 ⚡ tiwesdaeg stumbles sleepily in to the channel
2020-06-19 12:08:00 @tomasino hiya tiw
2020-06-19 12:08:11 @tomasino i'm still not sure why av98 kicks it out to an external file viewer
2020-06-19 12:08:16 ~tiwesdaeg another exciting day at work
2020-06-19 12:08:26 @tomasino castor, bollux, and kristall all display it properly
2020-06-19 12:08:58 ~tiwesdaeg oh yeah, I need to pull and compile kristall on this computer
2020-06-19 12:09:13 ~tiwesdaeg I've only been using it about twice a week
2020-06-19 12:15:00 xq hello tiwesdaeg
2020-06-19 12:15:38 @tomasino trimmed my "server" to the minimal stuff so it's easier to read
2020-06-19 12:16:39 @tomasino oooh
2020-06-19 12:16:43 @tomasino i think i know what i did wrong
2020-06-19 12:17:34 @tomasino yep, i forgot the semicolon in the mime
2020-06-19 12:17:44 @tomasino between text/gemini and the utf-8 part
2020-06-19 12:18:22 xq is it necessary though?
2020-06-19 12:18:26 ⚡ xq checks the RFC
2020-06-19 12:19:08 @tomasino it was in the spec example, so that's why i tried it
2020-06-19 12:19:11 xq okay, yes
2020-06-19 12:19:13 xq it must be there
2020-06-19 12:19:20 xq https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2045#section-5.1
2020-06-19 12:20:46 xq i should fix my parser then
2020-06-19 12:23:42 ~tiwesdaeg this poor ancient computer is unstable :(
2020-06-19 12:24:31 ▬▬▶ rb100 has joined #gemini
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2020-06-19 12:24:55 @tomasino poor ancient computer
2020-06-19 12:24:58 @tomasino we still love you
2020-06-19 12:25:29 ~tiwesdaeg I keep getting dumped to a blank screen with a '_' in the upper left corner
2020-06-19 12:25:50 ~tiwesdaeg debian, just fix me
2020-06-19 13:38:01 ~tiwesdaeg And it's dead :(
2020-06-19 13:39:32 xq :(
2020-06-19 14:05:56 ▬▬▶ wakyct has joined #gemini
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2020-06-19 14:15:10 @tomasino aww
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2020-06-19 15:19:48 ~tiwesdaeg I had a puppy linux stick laying about
2020-06-19 15:20:12 ~tiwesdaeg I'm back!
2020-06-19 15:22:13 thewetcrab Hi tiwesdaeg
2020-06-19 15:22:21 thewetcrab What happened?
2020-06-19 15:23:01 ~tiwesdaeg no idea really
2020-06-19 15:23:13 acdw yo
2020-06-19 15:23:20 ~tiwesdaeg I think it may be related to the video card
2020-06-19 15:32:52 xq wb tiwesdaeg
2020-06-19 15:44:31 ~tiwesdaeg I'm not even going to try and compile kristall on puppy ;P
2020-06-19 15:45:05 ~tiwesdaeg anything exciting happening in the gemiverse today?
2020-06-19 15:45:15 xq hm, dunno
2020-06-19 15:45:17 xq ML is silent again
2020-06-19 15:47:43 ~tiwesdaeg Petite Abielle must have found something else to focus on
2020-06-19 15:48:53 xq :D
2020-06-19 15:49:03 xq we had such people in the zig community as well
2020-06-19 15:50:21 acdw I don't think *too* much is going on
2020-06-19 15:50:34 acdw at least I'm finding it hard to procrastinate on geminispace today
2020-06-19 15:51:37 xq hehe
2020-06-19 15:52:56 ~tiwesdaeg I need to install a gemini client on this VPS
2020-06-19 15:55:19 acdw Oooh you got a vps?!
2020-06-19 15:56:28 makeworld Converting charsets in Go is being annoying and not working for some reason
2020-06-19 15:56:40 xq oh, not nice
2020-06-19 15:56:43 makeworld I wish I could just use iconv but I really don't want to add a C dep
2020-06-19 15:56:55 acdw just port iconv to go
2020-06-19 15:56:57 acdw easy peasy
2020-06-19 16:00:32 makeworld Haha sure
2020-06-19 16:00:37 ⚡ makeworld afk
2020-06-19 16:00:48 ~tiwesdaeg acdw: I've got a few VPS's ;P
2020-06-19 16:01:36 ~tiwesdaeg I got this one to mainly host my irc instance
2020-06-19 16:02:08 ~tiwesdaeg it's also doing a little side gig as a gemini server
2020-06-19 16:02:35 thewetcrab Hi sorry to interupt, can anyone who runs gophernicus let me know what I write in the gophernicus.env to 'link' / 'activate' my server IP. - Thank yu.
2020-06-19 16:03:27 acdw nice tiwesdaeg! I'm thinking of switching my website over from nearlyfreespeech.net to a VPS
2020-06-19 16:03:32 thewetcrab Hosting IRC on VPS sounds interesting tiwesdaeg. What IRC server do you use on your VPS?
2020-06-19 16:04:00 ~tiwesdaeg I'm just running a weechat relay
2020-06-19 16:04:24 ~tiwesdaeg acdw: there are plenty of very inexpensive VPS options out there
2020-06-19 16:04:49 acdw I currently have breadpunk.club on digitalocean, so I'd probs stick w/ them
2020-06-19 16:04:56 acdw though there are cheaper ones ...hmmmm
2020-06-19 16:05:05 thewetcrab I really want my own IRC server, but I think that is many years off for me yet!
2020-06-19 16:05:22 acdw I just want to be able to spin up more stuff w/o dealing w/ nfsn's weird rules
2020-06-19 16:05:29 ~tiwesdaeg basicallyy, weechat is running in byobu, so I can ssh in and access it or use glowing-bear or the android weechat app to access the relay
2020-06-19 16:06:34 ~tiwesdaeg I used to run an irc server way back in the day on freebsd from my house
2020-06-19 16:06:39 thewetcrab Can I browse gemini space on Lynx?
2020-06-19 16:06:58 ~tiwesdaeg through a web or gopher proxy
2020-06-19 16:07:07 thewetcrab I hear in the early days of the internet lots of people ran things from their homes. BSS systems, email severs, all manor of things!
2020-06-19 16:07:09 lick lol someone make a pr in lynx
2020-06-19 16:07:28 ⚡ lick runs a gemini server in his house dont ddos me pls
2020-06-19 16:07:28 thewetcrab what is a pr lick?
2020-06-19 16:07:34 lick pull request
2020-06-19 16:07:50 ⚡ thewetcrab wants to run gopher from home
2020-06-19 16:08:09 thewetcrab ah right a pr for lynx to be able to browse gemini?
2020-06-19 16:08:23 ⚡ lick runs gemini and gopher in his home but they have totally different things hosted on them lol
2020-06-19 16:08:27 lick thewetcrab: yea
2020-06-19 16:08:49 thewetcrab which gemini server do you run from home lick?
2020-06-19 16:11:06 lick jetforce
2020-06-19 16:12:00 thewetcrab Might try set that up later once I have finised wrestling with gophernicus
2020-06-19 16:12:05 lick oo
2020-06-19 16:12:43 paper hmm, I did like jetforce, but I don't agree with its license
2020-06-19 16:13:19 lick yea its a bit silly of a license
2020-06-19 16:14:16 thewetcrab What's the issue with the license?
2020-06-19 16:14:47 acdw Just caught the jetforce gemini reference, that's good
2020-06-19 16:15:00 paper it's not ISA approved, and not truly opensource
2020-06-19 16:15:05 acdw I need to run a weechat bouncer thing on a VPS too
2020-06-19 16:15:08 acdw that would be rad
2020-06-19 16:17:46 thewetcrab What is ISA?
2020-06-19 16:17:59 thewetcrab lick how long did it take you to set yo your jetforce server
2020-06-19 16:18:55 lick about an hour i think, because i didint realize i had to specify a host lol
2020-06-19 16:19:03 paper an organisation which approves if licenses can be considered opensource or not
2020-06-19 16:19:42 thewetcrab Specifying the host is what I am trying to do now on my gopher server hopefully once that is done and I have forwarded ports it should be running :D
2020-06-19 16:19:49 thewetcrab Then I will add an gemini server!
2020-06-19 16:20:16 thewetcrab I'm so glad I don't need to configure a full LAMP stack!
2020-06-19 16:20:30 lick lol
2020-06-19 16:23:51 thewetcrab I did it once and it was a hair raising experience!
2020-06-19 16:24:20 paper nah, it's not that bad
2020-06-19 16:24:48 paper and you wouldn't need PHP + Mysql for an alternative of gemini
2020-06-19 16:25:09 paper so you would only need nginx or apache which is really simple to set up
2020-06-19 16:29:39 thewetcrab It's OK if you have experience doing it multiple times paper. It's OK if you know the steps,
2020-06-19 16:30:14 thewetcrab but it was the first time I did it and I guess if I managed it, it really can't be that hard, not sure I got it 100% correct. But My wordpress runs off it so ........
2020-06-19 16:30:30 paper if you are doing it the first time, you can check some tutorials on digitalocean, they are really helpful
2020-06-19 16:32:50 acdw ^+1 to DO tutorials. I don't run anything complicated on breadpunk (I don't think we have PHP) but the nginx config was easy to understand
2020-06-19 16:33:58 paper <3 nginx
2020-06-19 16:35:21 ⚡ xq wants to write a server based on C++/Qt and Kristall experience similar to nginx
2020-06-19 16:35:50 xq so virtual servers and static content serving, also CGI probably
2020-06-19 16:35:58 paper Qt server? what?
2020-06-19 16:37:11 xq Qt is not a GUI framework ;)
2020-06-19 16:37:13 xq Qt widgets is
2020-06-19 16:37:21 xq Qt is a replacement for the C++ standard library
2020-06-19 16:37:38 paper oh, nice, I didn't know
2020-06-19 16:39:50 acdw wut
2020-06-19 16:39:55 acdw I didn't know that about qt either
2020-06-19 16:39:56 ~tiwesdaeg is all of KDE written in QT?
2020-06-19 16:40:26 xq afaik at least a lot of it
2020-06-19 16:40:48 @tomasino Qt is pricey
2020-06-19 16:41:10 xq yeah, it's fat
2020-06-19 16:41:34 xq okay, back to kristall development </work>
2020-06-19 16:41:44 thewetcrab lick guess what!
2020-06-19 16:42:06 lick what?
2020-06-19 16:42:36 thewetcrab I have my gopher server running!
2020-06-19 16:42:40 thewetcrab It's working!!!
2020-06-19 16:43:11 thewetcrab I am going to leave IRC for a while as have been on here all day, but will call back this evening and set up the gemini server.
2020-06-19 16:43:31 ~tiwesdaeg which gemini server?
2020-06-19 16:43:33 rb100 has quit (Client exited)
2020-06-19 16:43:48 thewetcrab jetforce
2020-06-19 16:44:06 @tomasino ciao
2020-06-19 16:45:55 thewetcrab has quit (Client exited)
2020-06-19 16:47:23 dkibi kakoune style keybindings would be nice for browsing, i.e. entering the number of the link first then pressing the key for the "navigate to command"
2020-06-19 16:48:08 ~tiwesdaeg tomasino.org is the best gemini capsule, hands down
2020-06-19 16:48:46 @tomasino :D
2020-06-19 16:48:48 @tomasino thanks!
2020-06-19 16:48:57 ~tiwesdaeg this opens up stupid simple shell script servers for all
2020-06-19 16:49:17 @tomasino all real credit where it's due to xq
2020-06-19 16:49:19 ~tiwesdaeg who needs these huge rust behemoths
2020-06-19 16:49:24 @tomasino indeed
2020-06-19 16:49:34 @tomasino don't even need bash!
2020-06-19 16:49:56 ⚡ tiwesdaeg starts thinking of things to do with this knowledge
2020-06-19 16:50:32 @tomasino dunno if you can authenticate a client cert with ncat, but you could do one of those micro-service things solderpunk is talking about, potentially
2020-06-19 16:52:19 @tomasino it would be neat to also do this same thing via the gnu awk port listener, and via the bash one
2020-06-19 16:52:28 @tomasino 3 options for low-hanging solutions
2020-06-19 16:52:53 ~tiwesdaeg awk scares me
2020-06-19 16:53:00 @tomasino really?
2020-06-19 16:53:10 ⚡ xq chants: awk awk awk awk
2020-06-19 16:53:19 @tomasino have you only ever used it inline, or have you written a proper awk script?
2020-06-19 16:53:24 @tomasino it's MUCH easier as a proper script
2020-06-19 16:53:33 @tomasino escaping things and inlining make it look harder than it is
2020-06-19 16:53:41 ~tiwesdaeg I did see a script recently that was less scary, but only ever used it inline
2020-06-19 16:53:57 @tomasino https://github.com/jamestomasino/dotfiles-minimal/blob/master/bin/gophermap2gemini.awk
2020-06-19 16:54:07 @tomasino look how easy that is to read
2020-06-19 16:54:23 xq btw, have you ever seen a lisp implemented in sed? :D
2020-06-19 16:54:34 @tomasino that... no
2020-06-19 16:54:46 xq https://github.com/shinh/sedlisp
2020-06-19 16:54:50 @tomasino https://ferd.ca/awk-in-20-minutes.html
2020-06-19 16:55:00 @tomasino this is my favorite awk resource for people that are intimidated by it
2020-06-19 16:55:18 @tomasino that's insane, xq
2020-06-19 16:55:21 xq yes!
2020-06-19 16:55:32 xq have to look at that awk though
2020-06-19 16:55:40 ⚡ xq is neither proficient enough in sed/awk
2020-06-19 16:55:55 acdw awk is the BEST
2020-06-19 16:56:01 @tomasino awk really is the best
2020-06-19 16:56:09 @tomasino it's just really annoying to use inside a bash script
2020-06-19 16:56:25 ⚡ tiwesdaeg throws ((()))()()(((((()))))) at xq
2020-06-19 16:56:35 acdw tomasino: (A) I'm getting a Connection Error on gemini://tomasino.org/ in portal.mozz.us
2020-06-19 16:56:49 @tomasino lemme see if it died
2020-06-19 16:56:51 @tomasino it does sometimes
2020-06-19 16:56:58 @tomasino hrm, nope
2020-06-19 16:57:02 @tomasino working fine in kristall
2020-06-19 16:57:05 acdw (B) how would you make the ssl connection in awk do you reckon?
2020-06-19 16:57:12 acdw oh shoot it up now
2020-06-19 16:57:17 @tomasino you'd have to kick it over to openssl or something
2020-06-19 16:57:25 @tomasino maybe the same way bash does it
2020-06-19 16:57:38 @tomasino jan6 had a solve for that at one point
2020-06-19 16:57:47 acdw maybe I made the connection at the same time as someone else
2020-06-19 16:58:03 jan6 for what?
2020-06-19 16:58:27 acdw like do a print "gemini://example.com" | "openssl s_client -connect example.com:1965"
2020-06-19 16:58:28 acdw ?
2020-06-19 16:58:37 jan6 don't forget \r\n
2020-06-19 16:58:42 acdw jan6: opening an ssl connection using awk junk
2020-06-19 16:58:46 acdw oh yes dang \r\n
2020-06-19 16:58:48 @tomasino jan6: gemini://tomasino.org
2020-06-19 16:58:53 xq acdw: if you serialize all connection handling that should not be a problem
2020-06-19 16:58:55 @tomasino the bash version of that without ncat
2020-06-19 16:59:07 @tomasino if we see that we can probably do the gawk version too
2020-06-19 16:59:27 acdw xq I'm afraid I do not know what you mean by serialize the connection handling
2020-06-19 16:59:46 ⚡ acdw is a baby funtime programmer
2020-06-19 16:59:58 jan6 same, acdw
2020-06-19 17:00:03 acdw :)
2020-06-19 17:00:15 acdw oh I do love how tomasino.org shows the time!
2020-06-19 17:00:31 jan6 so \r\n made it work?
2020-06-19 17:01:12 acdw oh idk I am not actually able to write anything -- i'm at work with no terminal or nothin
2020-06-19 17:01:12 @tomasino \r\n was necessary for mine, yes
2020-06-19 17:01:18 acdw oh
2020-06-19 17:01:29 jan6 for your what?
2020-06-19 17:01:33 @tomasino tomasino.org
2020-06-19 17:01:40 @tomasino you can see the code on it
2020-06-19 17:01:51 xq it's a quine! :D
2020-06-19 17:01:54 xq kindaish
2020-06-19 17:01:59 @tomasino kinda, if i get rid of the header
2020-06-19 17:02:07 acdw gemiquine
2020-06-19 17:02:10 @tomasino and if i served it as text
2020-06-19 17:02:15 @tomasino instead of gemini
2020-06-19 17:02:26 @tomasino i could point it to the script itself, yeah
2020-06-19 17:02:39 jan6 lol great pag
2020-06-19 17:02:41 jan6 page
2020-06-19 17:02:44 @tomasino :)
2020-06-19 17:02:46 jan6 read:errno=0
2020-06-19 17:02:52 jan6 lol
2020-06-19 17:03:00 @tomasino you got an error?
2020-06-19 17:03:01 acdw i wonder how you could get the page to display from the client
2020-06-19 17:03:45 jan6 write page to file, then read from file?
2020-06-19 17:04:05 @tomasino xq, when i had cat getting consumed by the printf, i had to double escape my newlines. Moving it to the { } block and just using cat means i don't need to
2020-06-19 17:04:17 acdw possibly? Or just get the request from the client and make that "$1" in tomasino's script
2020-06-19 17:04:25 jan6 the error might be just my end, I guess
2020-06-19 17:04:31 @tomasino what client?
2020-06-19 17:04:40 jan6 yes seems to just be me
2020-06-19 17:04:44 @tomasino i've tested in av98, kristall and castor
2020-06-19 17:04:50 @tomasino oh, ok
2020-06-19 17:04:54 acdw we need to make a gemini clock with emojis
2020-06-19 17:04:57 jan6 geminish's gemini_get_openssl.sh
2020-06-19 17:04:58 jan6 lol
2020-06-19 17:04:59 acdw that would be rad as heack
2020-06-19 17:05:21 jan6 I don't care to bother with all the "clients" and whatnot nonsense
2020-06-19 17:05:21 ~tiwesdaeg tomasino: do you really need an input file? Just output it all in printf or echo lines
2020-06-19 17:05:35 @tomasino it made it easier to write / edit
2020-06-19 17:05:45 @tomasino but no, you don't need one
2020-06-19 17:05:45 jan6 does it actually echo itself, or is it a copy-paste?
2020-06-19 17:05:50 @tomasino once you printf that header line you can print whatever
2020-06-19 17:05:58 ~tiwesdaeg geomyidae has had me thinking in echo for a while
2020-06-19 17:05:58 @tomasino run a script and kick the output there
2020-06-19 17:05:59 jan6 I once did some nice shenanigans
2020-06-19 17:06:20 jan6 so I used a script to read itself to list the options in itself
2020-06-19 17:06:21 jan6 lol
2020-06-19 17:06:22 @tomasino i could make this mimic my fingerd and expect a username as the path and return the finger results
2020-06-19 17:06:27 @tomasino or cosmic stories
2020-06-19 17:06:28 @tomasino or whatever
2020-06-19 17:07:35 jan6 You can use following arguments: ";grep '" )' $0|grep -v "following"|cut -d")" -f1|tr -d '"'|sort|nl -s ": "|tr -s "|"|tr -s '"'|tr -d "'"|tr "|" " "|tr "}" "
2020-06-19 17:07:35 jan6 )
2020-06-19 17:07:55 jan6 or stuff like that
2020-06-19 17:08:02 jan6 which basically parsed the case statement
2020-06-19 17:08:13 acdw tomasino: look at -k flag to ncat
2020-06-19 17:08:16 jan6 loady_thing.sh ftw
2020-06-19 17:08:43 @tomasino oh, that would save me lots!
2020-06-19 17:08:59 @tomasino it wouldn't regen the file every request, which is probably good
2020-06-19 17:09:03 @tomasino lemme try it real quick
2020-06-19 17:09:08 jan6 not the exact thing
2020-06-19 17:09:11 acdw oh wait, it never closes the connection
2020-06-19 17:09:14 acdw which isn't in spec
2020-06-19 17:09:15 jan6 I parse and replace stuff in the file
2020-06-19 17:09:35 jan6 so a line like this
2020-06-19 17:09:36 jan6 "yinyan" ) speed=0.1; echo "$1";a="⚊⚋";;
2020-06-19 17:09:39 jan6 would become this
2020-06-19 17:09:47 jan6 41: yinyan
2020-06-19 17:10:26 jan6 but you can probably use $0 to get the file itself, still
2020-06-19 17:10:40 acdw hmmm maybe -e
2020-06-19 17:10:49 acdw for getting the requested file
2020-06-19 17:11:06 @tomasino refresh gemini://tomasino.org
2020-06-19 17:11:25 @tomasino works in kristall
2020-06-19 17:11:36 jan6 hmm, seems to hang
2020-06-19 17:11:36 @tomasino ahh, but not av98
2020-06-19 17:11:40 @tomasino okay, going back to the old version
2020-06-19 17:11:50 jan6 wait, are you sure it worked
2020-06-19 17:11:57 acdw yeah I got an empty response on portal.mozz.us
2020-06-19 17:12:05 jan6 as in, are you sure it worked more than once
2020-06-19 17:12:12 @tomasino back
2020-06-19 17:12:20 jan6 ^ question
2020-06-19 17:12:33 @tomasino it worked in kristall somehow, but not in av98
2020-06-19 17:12:43 @tomasino the bash loop with a terminating ncat works better
2020-06-19 17:12:47 jan6 did it work MORE THAN ONCE
2020-06-19 17:12:50 @tomasino yes
2020-06-19 17:12:55 jan6 ah, ok
2020-06-19 17:12:58 jan6 assuming it didn't cache
2020-06-19 17:13:06 @tomasino i don't think kristall caches
2020-06-19 17:14:23 @tomasino neat
2020-06-19 17:14:36 xq nah, kristall doesn't cache
2020-06-19 17:14:53 xq *maybe* one day i'll implement that for navigating back to not re-call that site
2020-06-19 17:15:04 @tomasino or just remembering scroll position on back
2020-06-19 17:15:30 @tomasino in long-form, when there's a link out part way down and i check it out then click back, i have to find my place again
2020-06-19 17:15:50 acdw yeah scroll remembering is like the holy grail
2020-06-19 17:16:01 xq yeah, it's a nice feature
2020-06-19 17:16:06 xq i'll put it into the todo list
2020-06-19 17:17:08 @tomasino the holy grail would be to cache all content visited in any given session, then let me fuzzy-find across all of it to pull back up a relevant resource, fzf style
2020-06-19 17:17:32 @tomasino who needs ctrl-f when you can FZF!
2020-06-19 17:17:34 @tomasino muahahahahahah
2020-06-19 17:18:22 xq haha :D
2020-06-19 17:18:34 acdw why a session when you could do it all for all of time
2020-06-19 17:18:46 xq but you'll be happy about new features coming in 0.4!
2020-06-19 17:18:47 acdw just save everything in ~/.gemini time-stampped
2020-06-19 17:18:53 xq smarter search bar for example :)
2020-06-19 17:19:15 @tomasino i guess if you just have logs, yeah
2020-06-19 17:19:22 @tomasino but $XDG_CACHE/gemini/....
2020-06-19 17:19:28 @tomasino don't muddy up the home folder
2020-06-19 17:19:45 @tomasino or $XDG_CACHE/kristall/... rather
2020-06-19 17:20:32 @tomasino i was thinking logs would be bad, but this is your local browsing history. some people like that
2020-06-19 17:20:38 acdw /home/gemini - make a new userdir
2020-06-19 17:20:43 acdw or even better, /gemini
2020-06-19 17:20:45 @tomasino have we talked about cache policy at all in the ML?
2020-06-19 17:20:54 acdw no I don't think so
2020-06-19 17:20:55 xq tomasino: optional local browsing history is planned
2020-06-19 17:21:08 @tomasino hmmm, interesting
2020-06-19 17:21:16 xq at least for Kristall :D
2020-06-19 17:21:21 @tomasino nice
2020-06-19 17:21:28 acdw I know that the favicon.txt thing is an hour? I think
2020-06-19 17:21:35 xq and: as always, in Kristall-style. fully configurably!
2020-06-19 17:21:39 @tomasino yeah, but favicon isn't spec... just a fun side thing
2020-06-19 17:21:40 acdw nice xq!
2020-06-19 17:21:49 @tomasino the spec doesn't address caching at all to my knowledge
2020-06-19 17:21:51 xq yeah, favicon is still a nice idea
2020-06-19 17:21:53 @tomasino even to say no
2020-06-19 17:21:57 acdw yeah,but I think an hour is a good amount of time. I was planning on caching for the session length
2020-06-19 17:22:05 xq ah
2020-06-19 17:22:21 acdw b/c who knows what might change
2020-06-19 17:22:38 @tomasino if a resource is trying to say, build a clock, that would be bad
2020-06-19 17:22:58 @tomasino but we have no way to control it
2020-06-19 17:23:02 acdw yes --- I'm not sure how to mitigate that except for some kind of heuristic thing
2020-06-19 17:23:12 acdw like, if it's in cgi-bin/ or ends with .cgi
2020-06-19 17:23:14 @tomasino well, there's mime, but that'll open a can of worms
2020-06-19 17:23:29 acdw how do web browsers figure out what to cache and what not to?
2020-06-19 17:23:36 @tomasino server sends headers
2020-06-19 17:23:40 xq make caching short-termed (10 seconds)
2020-06-19 17:23:40 xq headers
2020-06-19 17:24:04 @tomasino short termed caching is nearly to the point of saying "don't cache at all"
2020-06-19 17:24:14 @tomasino which maybe fine
2020-06-19 17:24:25 @tomasino we've accepted some overhead with TLS on every transaction already
2020-06-19 17:24:39 @tomasino and our payloads are very tiny anyway
2020-06-19 17:24:50 @tomasino mostly
2020-06-19 17:25:57 @tomasino anywho, i need to share tomasino.org on the ML
2020-06-19 17:26:05 @tomasino maybe i'll mention caching in an email there too
2020-06-19 17:26:23 xq yeah, do that!
2020-06-19 17:26:27 xq share more funky content!
2020-06-19 17:26:36 ⚡ xq spends way too much time on Kristall, not on content
2020-06-19 17:26:55 acdw oh yes -- the Header problem. Just add cache-time to the mimetype!
2020-06-19 17:27:02 xq :D
2020-06-19 17:27:10 xq easy problems require easy solutions!
2020-06-19 17:27:20 acdw text/gemini; charset=utf-8; lang=en_US; cache-for=8s;
2020-06-19 17:27:43 acdw yeah no prob ;)
2020-06-19 17:27:53 xq well, "valid-until" would probably be acceptable ;)
2020-06-19 17:28:01 acdw what was the other thing on the ML we were talking about putting in there?
2020-06-19 17:28:07 xq but it's describing content, not content class
2020-06-19 17:28:58 @tomasino slippery slopes! solderpunk loves those
2020-06-19 17:29:04 @tomasino conference call time
2020-06-19 17:29:05 @tomasino back later
2020-06-19 17:30:02 acdw text/gemini; charset=utf-8; lang=en_US; valid-until=2020-06-19T19:00:21Z; content-length=58K; slippery-slope=true;
2020-06-19 17:30:09 @tomasino haha
2020-06-19 17:30:13 acdw :D
2020-06-19 17:30:20 @tomasino just post that with nothing else as an explanation to the ML
2020-06-19 17:30:27 acdw haahahahha
2020-06-19 17:30:38 acdw Subject: Header lines
2020-06-19 17:30:45 acdw or MimeType Extensions
2020-06-19 17:31:15 xq topic: #gemini
2020-06-19 17:31:21 xq content: text/gemini; charset=utf-8; lang=en_US; valid-until=2020-06-19T19:00:21Z; content-length=58K; slippery-slope=true;
2020-06-19 17:32:53 acdw hahah
2020-06-19 17:35:08 makeworld Lol
2020-06-19 17:35:24 makeworld Amfora's cache is just for the session
2020-06-19 17:35:31 makeworld But you can clear it just by reloading
2020-06-19 17:35:50 makeworld And it doesn't cache URLs with query strings
2020-06-19 17:36:25 makeworld You can limit the number of pages or the cache size, but I didn't think about time
2020-06-19 17:39:14 jan6 lol
2020-06-19 17:39:24 ⚡ jan6 should get back to doing stuff with gemini sometime
2020-06-19 17:39:47 jan6 kinda thought about making a client in haxe, maybe server later down the line
2020-06-19 17:41:53 xq guys
2020-06-19 17:41:59 xq todo list for 0.3 down to a single major point
2020-06-19 17:42:45 acdw :D nice xq!
2020-06-19 17:43:03 acdw of course bollux doesn't even *have* a todo list, so I'm def winning there ;)
2020-06-19 17:45:48 wakyct has quit (Client exited)
2020-06-19 17:51:06 jan6 lol
2020-06-19 17:51:17 jan6 todo: have a todo list
2020-06-19 17:52:03 wgreenhouse acdw: that means you're all caught up :P
2020-06-19 17:54:41 companion_cube ahah funny site tomasino
2020-06-19 17:54:48 companion_cube it's in markdown, heh?
2020-06-19 17:55:13 xq ohai companion_cube
2020-06-19 17:55:34 companion_cube o/
2020-06-19 17:55:41 companion_cube I didn't know ncat
2020-06-19 18:00:55 acdw wgreenhouse: true fact!
2020-06-19 18:06:49 Ernoz has quit (Ping timeout: 120 seconds)
2020-06-19 18:07:00 lvgx tomasino: you forgot to actually use the $port variable in your tiny sh server
2020-06-19 18:08:17 xq ssh server? no! sh server!
2020-06-19 18:15:46 ▬▬▶ lukee has joined #gemini
2020-06-19 18:16:42 lukee evening all
2020-06-19 18:17:24 lukee After a request on the mailing list I've been refactoring my theme engine for GemiNaut
2020-06-19 18:18:13 lukee defdefred asked if new themes could be created by the user
2020-06-19 18:18:29 lukee and that it would be nice to have a dark but variable font theme
2020-06-19 18:18:52 lukee I looked around at some dark code editor themes for some inspiration
2020-06-19 18:18:57 lukee and present...
2020-06-19 18:19:00 lukee Dark theme
2020-06-19 18:19:01 lukee https://imgur.com/a/rJmmw0L
2020-06-19 18:20:13 lukee Even better is users can just write their own and drop them in the folder, and they will appear as an option on the menu
2020-06-19 18:20:51 xq dark theme looks good :)
2020-06-19 18:20:59 xq lukee: good idea actually…
2020-06-19 18:21:10 xq i should start using a kristall config folder instead of a huge file blob :D
2020-06-19 18:21:35 lukee thanks. I'm even feeling drawn to the dark side when using it
2020-06-19 18:21:41 lukee even though normally I prefer a light screen
2020-06-19 18:21:59 ⚡ lukee whispers "come to the dark side, luke"
2020-06-19 18:22:15 ⚡ jan6 brings everyone to the dark side
2020-06-19 18:23:43 ⚡ xq has cookies
2020-06-19 18:24:00 lukee not web cookies I hope
2020-06-19 18:24:02 lukee :)
2020-06-19 18:24:06 xq nah
2020-06-19 18:24:10 xq cookies with macadamia
2020-06-19 18:24:13 xq *noms*
2020-06-19 18:24:19 lukee nice - did you make them?
2020-06-19 18:24:36 xq nah, subway D:
2020-06-19 18:26:06 lukee at least you made your own coffee right?
2020-06-19 18:26:28 xq i don't drink coffee
2020-06-19 18:26:58 xq but i'm kinda the guy that eats 50% outdoors/ready-made because my shop closes at 20:00, and i come home at 20:30
2020-06-19 18:27:06 xq and the other 50% are self-made food gloryness
2020-06-19 18:28:01 dozens i'm kind of over coffee. after a lifetime of obsession with it. I've been 100% decaf for many years now and it's really starting to lose its appeal.
2020-06-19 18:28:24 lukee tea is good too
2020-06-19 18:28:42 dozens I think the only reason I keep drinking it is because I get a micro caffeine kick from even decaf now. so if I'm actually serious about kicking caffeine all the way, i should just stop.
2020-06-19 18:28:48 dozens yeah, I drink a lot of tea
2020-06-19 18:29:42 jan6 T E A
2020-06-19 18:29:58 xq caffeine isn't that bad
2020-06-19 18:30:03 xq but if you overdo it, you need more and more
2020-06-19 18:30:03 makeworld lukee: Have you added bookmarks yet or is that upcoming?
2020-06-19 18:30:18 jan6 tea is good because there's SO MANY different options
2020-06-19 18:30:21 lukee yes I've added them
2020-06-19 18:30:24 makeworld I've been having tea every day bc of quarantine
2020-06-19 18:30:32 makeworld Well, almost
2020-06-19 18:30:53 xq i was at a point where i could straight up drink 1l of energy drinks and sleep like a baby. now small doses kick in again :D
2020-06-19 18:32:18 ▬▬▶ xfnw has joined #gemini
2020-06-19 18:33:13 lukee This is the bookmarks menu - you can just "add the current site" or edit the bookmarks in a simple gemini box
2020-06-19 18:33:14 lukee https://imgur.com/a/nmbhlt6
2020-06-19 18:33:47 jan6 lol
2020-06-19 18:34:16 krixano Does anybody know why I don't always get every email from the mailing list?
2020-06-19 18:34:52 krixano For example, Martin Keegan wrote an email, and I can see that solderpunk quoted him, but I don't see his actual email
2020-06-19 18:34:54 xq what mail server are you using?
2020-06-19 18:34:58 krixano Protonmail
2020-06-19 18:35:14 makeworld lukee: Great! Is that in the latest release on the site?
2020-06-19 18:35:20 makeworld krixano: Same thing here
2020-06-19 18:35:29 makeworld I figured it was the sender's client messing things up
2020-06-19 18:35:37 makeworld I'm on Protonmail too
2020-06-19 18:35:42 makeworld So maybe it's us?
2020-06-19 18:35:44 jan6 it's probably replying direct to person
2020-06-19 18:35:47 jan6 not to everyone
2020-06-19 18:35:58 @ben it's possible that protonmail is blocking the listserv
2020-06-19 18:36:06 jan6 not selectively, I wouldn't think
2020-06-19 18:36:23 @ben i had a similar situation with the tildeclub list but the problem was with fastmail not protonmail
2020-06-19 18:36:34 wgreenhouse also a lot of normal mailclients don't do the best job of displaying the deeply nested nest of replies you get on an ML
2020-06-19 18:36:37 jan6 hmm, maybe a keyword search?
2020-06-19 18:36:49 jan6 don't deeply list then ;P
2020-06-19 18:37:07 xq have you checked your spam folders already?
2020-06-19 18:37:14 @ben as a protonmail customer you could reach out to support and ask them to whitelist the listserv
2020-06-19 18:37:24 @ben the list maintainer could also reach out
2020-06-19 18:37:35 makeworld But I get other listserv emails
2020-06-19 18:37:40 makeworld So it doesn't make sense
2020-06-19 18:37:42 krixano Yes, I've checked spam
2020-06-19 18:37:44 jan6 ^ what I said
2020-06-19 18:37:45 @ben from the same mailman instance?
2020-06-19 18:37:56 jan6 I wouldn't think that only SOME mails get blocked
2020-06-19 18:38:11 krixano I'm a free protonmail "customer"
2020-06-19 18:38:14 jan6 I think it's just reply feature sometimes defaulting to only replying to one person
2020-06-19 18:38:23 @ben it's very possible that they're getting greylisted
2020-06-19 18:38:23 jan6 on some clients, with some messages
2020-06-19 18:38:27 lukee makeworld: I've not pushed a binary build to my website, but the source is in Github just now
2020-06-19 18:38:27 @ben or just dropped
2020-06-19 18:38:46 jan6 I guess people could try to compare blocked messages, if there's some keyword search or something
2020-06-19 18:38:46 @ben who runs lists.orbitalfox.eu?
2020-06-19 18:38:58 makeworld Idk
2020-06-19 18:39:08 makeworld lukee: Cool, thanks.
2020-06-19 18:39:19 @ben there's not even an MX record
2020-06-19 18:39:22 @ben nor dmarc
2020-06-19 18:39:29 lukee makeworld: do you need a binary?
2020-06-19 18:39:53 makeworld Not immediately. I assume you'll release one soon?
2020-06-19 18:40:07 lukee yes probably over the weekend
2020-06-19 18:40:20 makeworld All good then
2020-06-19 18:40:22 lukee I'll announce on the list when I do
2020-06-19 18:40:35 makeworld It'd be nice if you made a Github release too
2020-06-19 18:40:39 makeworld Oh ok, sounds good
2020-06-19 18:41:02 lukee I'm never quite sure what a Github release is
2020-06-19 18:41:11 lukee is that a thing?
2020-06-19 18:41:16 @ben yes
2020-06-19 18:41:34 @ben would be good to get those configuration issues addressed for the listserv
2020-06-19 18:41:47 jan6 github release is a special tag, basically, afaik
2020-06-19 18:41:53 jan6 but it's nice for users
2020-06-19 18:41:53 wgreenhouse lukee: it's a git tag, plus releasenotes plus optionally you can drop in a build there.
2020-06-19 18:42:04 jan6 ^ dropping builds is the best part
2020-06-19 18:42:06 @ben tag with notes and optional binaries
2020-06-19 18:42:10 lukee my git knowledge is a bit rudimentary.
2020-06-19 18:42:28 lukee I prefer Hg
2020-06-19 18:42:33 jan6 prefer why?
2020-06-19 18:42:37 jan6 just because more experience?
2020-06-19 18:42:41 lukee and there is a wonderful client for windows
2020-06-19 18:42:51 lukee yes.
2020-06-19 18:42:56 wgreenhouse git on windows is p. bad, indeed.
2020-06-19 18:43:10 lukee But I have to admit Git won, sadly
2020-06-19 18:43:20 @ben i've been trying sublime merge lately and it's really quite nice
2020-06-19 18:43:26 wgreenhouse sourcehut can haz hg
2020-06-19 18:43:32 @ben git bash is usable for the most part
2020-06-19 18:43:45 wgreenhouse (I only noticed, haven't tried)
2020-06-19 18:44:10 lukee well I figured I should get a github account
2020-06-19 18:44:20 @ben github bad :P
2020-06-19 18:44:27 lukee Actually I have a peculiar dual repo setup
2020-06-19 18:44:37 jan6 https://hg-git.github.io/
2020-06-19 18:44:57 lukee yes I know, but I never got it working.
2020-06-19 18:44:58 xq tiwesdaeg, you had one time where no optional was found?
2020-06-19 18:45:04 xq was it libstdc++-dev?
2020-06-19 18:45:21 lukee I use Hg locally, then commit the same folder using git to github
2020-06-19 18:45:51 lukee so my git usage is pretty minimal
2020-06-19 18:45:54 ~tiwesdaeg xq: I'm pretty sure I found all the deendencies
2020-06-19 18:46:51 lukee I should just spend a weekend in a dark room and learn git properly
2020-06-19 18:47:05 lukee that said who doesnt have better things to do with their time?
2020-06-19 18:47:21 xq friend of mine tries linux mint and there's stuff missing :D
2020-06-19 18:47:30 ~tiwesdaeg ahhh
2020-06-19 18:47:42 ~tiwesdaeg ubuntu based I think
2020-06-19 18:47:47 ~tiwesdaeg or did they switch to debian?
2020-06-19 18:47:56 xq i think they're debian based
2020-06-19 18:48:28 ~tiwesdaeg I got it to compile on deban before it died
2020-06-19 18:48:44 xq :D
2020-06-19 18:49:00 jan6 last I checked mint was ubuntu, and then there was a separate debian version of it
2020-06-19 18:49:04 jan6 idk if it's changed
2020-06-19 18:49:19 xq i really need a VM slave…
2020-06-19 18:50:37 ~tiwesdaeg give me a minute
2020-06-19 18:50:51 ~tiwesdaeg still trying to get x up and running on freebsd
2020-06-19 18:51:08 ~tiwesdaeg the new os of my stupid old at work computer
2020-06-19 18:52:56 xq > g++ (Ubuntu 5.4.0-6ubuntu1~16.04.12) 5.4.0 20160609
2020-06-19 18:52:57 xq ouch
2020-06-19 18:54:21 jan6 well, duh
2020-06-19 18:54:42 jan6 ubuntu from 2016 has a compiler from 2016, who'd have thought
2020-06-19 18:55:11 xq that's the good thing about rolling release
2020-06-19 18:55:14 xq your system never gets old
2020-06-19 18:55:16 ~tiwesdaeg who is running ubuntu 16.04 still?
2020-06-19 18:55:59 ⚡ tiwesdaeg downloads another 200mb at 1.5mbit
2020-06-19 18:56:28 jan6 lol
2020-06-19 18:56:53 ~tiwesdaeg we have a "morale" inernet connection at work
2020-06-19 18:57:00 jan6 morale?
2020-06-19 18:57:07 ~tiwesdaeg it's an ancient dsl line
2020-06-19 18:57:19 ~tiwesdaeg morale is another way of saying fun in the military
2020-06-19 18:57:40 ~tiwesdaeg no one knows who is paying for it anymore or when it was installed
2020-06-19 18:57:56 jan6 I'd like if there were more semi-rolling distros, where you get like, say, monthly updates, or so
2020-06-19 18:58:00 jan6 lol
2020-06-19 18:58:04 jan6 gotta love mystery net
2020-06-19 18:58:10 ~tiwesdaeg we can't use the official work network
2020-06-19 18:59:13 jan6 heard someone got an infinite sim card that way for many years, that they worked at a phone sale place, and got demo sims, and one time they forgot to deactivate it, and he could use it for like 6 more years or something, even got it transferred when it got stolen
2020-06-19 18:59:34 jan6 mystery DSL line sounds fun to me
2020-06-19 18:59:48 ~tiwesdaeg it's slow and unstable
2020-06-19 18:59:52 ~tiwesdaeg tone of fun
2020-06-19 19:00:21 ~tiwesdaeg even ssh/mosh can be a pain when it's unstable
2020-06-19 19:00:55 jan6 heh
2020-06-19 19:01:13 jan6 use telnet? ;P
2020-06-19 19:01:20 jan6 lol
2020-06-19 19:01:41 @tomasino lvgx: haha, so I did
2020-06-19 19:02:12 ~tiwesdaeg across the street is a giant Bass Pro Shop
2020-06-19 19:02:36 ~tiwesdaeg so we named the wifi SSID after it to further obfuscate the connection
2020-06-19 19:03:37 jan6 lol
2020-06-19 19:03:47 jan6 obfuscate what connection and why?
2020-06-19 19:03:59 jan6 DSL connection into wifi?
2020-06-19 19:04:13 ~tiwesdaeg mmm 163kB/s I would have killed for that back in the mid 90's
2020-06-19 19:04:28 ~tiwesdaeg we all connect to it over wifi
2020-06-19 19:04:32 jan6 lol
2020-06-19 19:04:43 jan6 "we all" no wonder it's slow and unreliable then
2020-06-19 19:04:44 ~tiwesdaeg just an old dsl modem wired in to a modern router
2020-06-19 19:05:15 ~tiwesdaeg I can be the only one here and it will just stop for 10 seconds then start letting packets through again
2020-06-19 19:05:42 ~tiwesdaeg I don't have enough monthly bandwidth on my cell plan to tether all the time
2020-06-19 19:06:08 jan6 over here you can get prepaid sims, where if you go over data cap, and I THINK even without paying, you get infinite free sloooow internet ;P
2020-06-19 19:06:43 jan6 probably similar speeds, or slower
2020-06-19 19:07:15 ~tiwesdaeg same here generally
2020-06-19 19:07:31 ~tiwesdaeg if I go ver 7gb, I get like 2g speeds
2020-06-19 19:07:43 jan6 I wonder if there's a way to hook up multiple sims/WWAN adapters, and get faster speeds, probably would require a server to combine them, but still
2020-06-19 19:08:15 jan6 could be fun workaround, until you greate a tree of usb splitters and adapters, lol
2020-06-19 19:08:19 jan6 *create
2020-06-19 19:10:01 ▬▬▶ symbiont has joined #gemini
2020-06-19 19:25:37 xq krixano: do you know more about github actions?
2020-06-19 19:29:07 symbiont has quit (Client exited)
2020-06-19 19:56:36 lukee has quit (Client exited)
2020-06-19 19:59:57 krixano I don't really know a whole lot about github actions.
2020-06-19 20:01:19 xfnw post-receive-hooks > github actions
2020-06-19 20:04:47 acdw does github just do post-receive hooks on the backend?
2020-06-19 20:17:35 krixano xq, your commit when trying to fix windows build for CI, it looks like you're missing the last quote
2020-06-19 20:17:51 krixano Ah, you already tried fixing that
2020-06-19 20:18:16 krixano Ah, I see the problem
2020-06-19 20:18:23 krixano Call isn't a powershell command, it's for cmd
2020-06-19 20:19:15 krixano xq, It might help you to look at Odin's Ci config: https://github.com/odin-lang/Odin/blob/master/.github/workflows/ci.yml
2020-06-19 20:23:16 krixano If you want to use powershell anyways, for some odd reason, then I *think* doing "Invoke-BatchFile" instead of "call" would work, but idk... I don't use powershell crap
2020-06-19 20:44:35 krixano xq, I don't know if you want to use msvc's compiler or mingw's compiler
2020-06-19 20:45:12 xq i want to use mingw/gcc
2020-06-19 20:45:14 xq makes stuff easier
2020-06-19 20:45:56 krixano I got msvc's compiler called in the CI (in my fork of Kristall), but the problem now is that you're using the makefile qmake generates for msvc, but then using mingw's make, and those are incompatible
2020-06-19 20:46:49 krixano It's just as easy to make this use msvc if you want. Or you can use mingw, in which case I don't even think the vcvarsall thing needs to be called, but not sure
2020-06-19 20:55:30 ~tiwesdaeg 41 files changed, 1278 insertions(+), 559 deletions(-)
2020-06-19 20:55:42 ~tiwesdaeg every day is an adventure in kristall land
2020-06-19 20:55:45 @tomasino :D
2020-06-19 20:56:05 ~tiwesdaeg I finally got home to my functional computer
2020-06-19 20:56:17 ~tiwesdaeg I need to go make pizza dough soon
2020-06-19 20:56:36 krixano I'm trying to get the Windows CI build working for Kristall atm. I'm *almost* there
2020-06-19 20:59:25 krixano I'm getting this error from the qmake-generated makefile now:
2020-06-19 20:59:27 krixano > No rule to make target 'D:/a/kristall/Qt/5.12.9/msvc2017_64/lib/libQt5Svg.a', needed by 'release/kristall.exe'. Stop.
2020-06-19 21:01:19 acdw pizza dough YUM
2020-06-19 21:02:01 dozens mmmm pizza dough
2020-06-19 21:02:12 dozens maybe i'll bake some pizza tonight..
2020-06-19 21:02:21 acdw don't even need stuff on it. just eat that dough raw
2020-06-19 21:02:29 acdw not really, don't do that
2020-06-19 21:02:57 acdw i mean do what you want i guess
2020-06-19 21:03:01 ~tiwesdaeg I do the cast iron pan method
2020-06-19 21:03:03 acdw pizza is soo good
2020-06-19 21:03:17 acdw oh that sounds awesome! You just mush it in the cast iron and ... oven? Or stovetop?
2020-06-19 21:03:30 ~tiwesdaeg preheat the pans at 450(crazy american temp) and bake away
2020-06-19 21:03:47 acdw yes! And thanks for crazy american temp - I am a crazy american
2020-06-19 21:04:04 acdw that's .... about 200 C ?
2020-06-19 21:04:23 ~tiwesdaeg you just take out the pan, shape your dough and put it in, then apply sauce, cheese, toppings
2020-06-19 21:04:32 ~tiwesdaeg bake until you're happy with the cheese browning
2020-06-19 21:04:44 ~tiwesdaeg 230
2020-06-19 21:05:58 acdw that sounds amazing!
2020-06-19 21:06:24 acdw I've been trying to convert F to C in my head so I can know what everyone else is talking about without saying 'uhhh American plz'
2020-06-19 21:08:09 acdw I literally just had pizza 2 nights ago but I am wanting some right now
2020-06-19 21:08:25 acdw do you make sourdough dough? Or use yeast?
2020-06-19 21:09:10 ~tiwesdaeg there's a guy on my washington state primary ballot running for governor with the name GoodSpaceGuy
2020-06-19 21:09:21 acdw oh that's good
2020-06-19 21:09:32 ~tiwesdaeg running as part of the Trump Republican Party
2020-06-19 21:09:42 acdw everyone running in louisiana (or alll the "good ol boys") have ridiculous nicknames
2020-06-19 21:09:46 acdw like "Crawdaddy"
2020-06-19 21:09:46 ~tiwesdaeg which I guess is different from the Republican Party?
2020-06-19 21:09:53 acdw oh yeah I'd hope so
2020-06-19 21:09:58 ~tiwesdaeg you're in LA?
2020-06-19 21:10:08 ~tiwesdaeg I'm in MS
2020-06-19 21:10:29 ~tiwesdaeg I just get to vote in WA, because I'm special
2020-06-19 21:10:41 acdw oh nice! Yes I'm in Louisiana.
2020-06-19 21:10:53 acdw My cousins live in MS .. my dad is from Starkville
2020-06-19 21:11:23 ~tiwesdaeg I'm in Hernando, in the Memphis area
2020-06-19 21:11:44 acdw Oh cool. I've actually only been to Memphis once, though I'm from TN
2020-06-19 21:11:45 ~tiwesdaeg my bosses are down in NOLA
2020-06-19 21:11:51 acdw I'm from East TN though so it's far
2020-06-19 21:11:58 acdw oh nice. I hope they're safe with the virus
2020-06-19 21:12:05 ~tiwesdaeg Memphis, the largest city in Mississippi
2020-06-19 21:12:08 acdw lolol
2020-06-19 21:12:45 ~tiwesdaeg culturally, it's way more mississippian
2020-06-19 21:13:01 acdw I have a friend from Germantown who'd probably agree with you
2020-06-19 21:13:07 acdw she's in Oxford now, loves it
2020-06-19 21:13:12 acdw I still need to visit actually
2020-06-19 21:13:13 ~tiwesdaeg ahh, ritzville ;P
2020-06-19 21:13:22 acdw oh yeah, she's from money haha
2020-06-19 21:13:35 ~tiwesdaeg I looked at houses there when I moved out here
2020-06-19 21:13:42 ~tiwesdaeg but I wanted more land
2020-06-19 21:13:42 acdw oh nice
2020-06-19 21:13:55 ~tiwesdaeg and less rules about chickens
2020-06-19 21:14:02 acdw Oh you have chickens?!
2020-06-19 21:14:04 acdw Awesome
2020-06-19 21:14:09 ~tiwesdaeg I'm actually out in DeSoto county
2020-06-19 21:14:09 acdw My wife wants to get chickens
2020-06-19 21:14:18 ~tiwesdaeg they are special creatures
2020-06-19 21:14:36 ~tiwesdaeg I actually have one hen who is finally sitting on eggs
2020-06-19 21:14:47 acdw very cool
2020-06-19 21:14:51 ~tiwesdaeg you want some roosters?
2020-06-19 21:14:58 ~tiwesdaeg with my luck, they will all be male
2020-06-19 21:15:05 acdw haha I don't think they'll work out with our dogs
2020-06-19 21:15:11 acdw and my wife really wants the eggs
2020-06-19 21:15:22 acdw which I don't think roosters will make ;P
2020-06-19 21:16:07 ~tiwesdaeg you can just eat them
2020-06-19 21:16:10 @tomasino just gotta squeeze 'em harder
2020-06-19 21:16:16 ~tiwesdaeg I hate plucking feathers though
2020-06-19 21:16:30 acdw oh lord
2020-06-19 21:16:44 acdw yeah that doesn't sound like fun to me, though I've never done it
2020-06-19 21:16:51 acdw I grew up in the country but not on a farm
2020-06-19 21:17:00 acdw my parents *had* chickens, but before I came along
2020-06-19 21:17:00 yeti 1 or 2 decades ago there were experiments with naked chicken
2020-06-19 21:17:06 acdw ewww
2020-06-19 21:17:10 acdw oh those poor bird
2020-06-19 21:17:12 acdw s
2020-06-19 21:17:30 yeti we joked those days... "and then they will put some lemmings genes into them too"
2020-06-19 21:17:43 yeti to make them jump into the boiling oil
2020-06-19 21:17:44 acdw they'll just kill themselves!
2020-06-19 21:17:45 acdw hahaha
2020-06-19 21:18:16 acdw lobsters n crabs too
2020-06-19 21:18:19 ~tiwesdaeg people love fancy chickens
2020-06-19 21:18:27 acdw strong Restaurant at the End of the Universe vibes
2020-06-19 21:18:27 ~tiwesdaeg dough time
2020-06-19 21:18:31 acdw yummm
2020-06-19 21:22:20 xq <krixano> I'm trying to get the Windows CI build working for Kristall atm. I'm *almost* there
2020-06-19 21:22:21 xq neat!
2020-06-19 21:23:00 krixano Yeah, I got as far as mingw-make giving me an error, which I posted previously
2020-06-19 21:23:29 krixano > No rule to make target 'D:/a/kristall/Qt/5.12.9/msvc2017_64/lib/libQt5Svg.a', needed by 'release/kristall.exe'. Stop.
2020-06-19 21:23:45 xq hm
2020-06-19 21:23:57 xq you can probably exclude svg as a module on windows
2020-06-19 21:24:02 xq it's a dynamic plugin on win
2020-06-19 21:24:30 krixano I don't know where to do that, lol. I've never used qt
2020-06-19 21:24:39 xq kristall.pro
2020-06-19 21:24:46 xq there's a QT += … svg
2020-06-19 21:25:17 krixano Ok, thanks
2020-06-19 21:26:25 krixano Btw, in order to get qmake to generate the proper makefile for mingw, you just needed to add "-platform win32-g++"
2020-06-19 21:26:32 xq ah!
2020-06-19 21:26:48 xq would be awesome to have an automated linux build
2020-06-19 21:32:08 krixano Here in Odin's nightly build file it shows how you can automatically upload artifacts from the CI: https://github.com/odin-lang/Odin/blob/master/.github/workflows/nightly.yml#L63
2020-06-19 21:33:36 krixano And then those artifacts will show up in the Actions page
2020-06-19 21:41:50 ~tiwesdaeg the dough is rising!
2020-06-19 21:43:57 acdw :D
2020-06-19 21:44:04 acdw .-"-.
2020-06-19 21:44:08 acdw ^ that's yr dough
2020-06-19 21:45:30 xq <krixano> And then those artifacts will show up in the Actions page
2020-06-19 21:45:32 xq neat
2020-06-19 21:45:47 companion_cube krixano: is odin fast to compile, btw?
2020-06-19 21:46:36 krixano Yeah, it's pretty fast. I's going to get faster after the llvm C api update is done, which looks like might be soon since they got it almost working on Linux
2020-06-19 21:47:25 companion_cube hu, it's fast despite compiling via llvm? :D
2020-06-19 21:48:54 krixano I mean, it's just as fast as everything else that compiles llvm. Of course, that isn't fast based on what's possible
2020-06-19 21:49:04 krixano * the compiled with llvm
2020-06-19 21:49:25 xq yeah
2020-06-19 21:49:31 ⚡ xq is excited for Zig stage2 debug builds
2020-06-19 21:49:34 xq turbo to the max :D
2020-06-19 21:52:24 ▬▬▶ thewetcrab has joined #gemini
2020-06-19 21:53:04 companion_cube krixano: well in my experience languages that compile through llvm don't compile too fast :D
2020-06-19 21:53:09 companion_cube they do produce good code, mind you
2020-06-19 21:53:10 jan6 o/ thewetcrab
2020-06-19 21:54:05 krixano No, they don't, based on what's possible. But like, Odin isn't as slow as Rust or even Golang, that's all I was saying.
2020-06-19 21:55:13 companion_cube hu, I thought Go compiled super fast
2020-06-19 21:56:45 krixano No, it doesn't
2020-06-19 21:56:49 krixano Not in my experience at least
2020-06-19 21:57:31 thewetcrab hey jan6, just back here as I am about to attempt to write my gophermap page and wanted to be in the company of other slow web users whilst I work on it :)
2020-06-19 21:57:58 acdw yo
2020-06-19 21:58:05 @tomasino hey
2020-06-19 21:58:54 thewetcrab Hellow tomasino, I loved the chat about finger protocol earlier and .profile and .plan with you eariler today.
2020-06-19 21:59:08 thewetcrab I have just discovered /now pages, which also sound similar.
2020-06-19 21:59:19 xq thewetcrab, what is /now pages?
2020-06-19 22:00:12 yeti .project(?) and .plan
2020-06-19 22:00:41 yeti .profile is sh-startup stuff
2020-06-19 22:01:05 xq that's the init file for the sh server *trololo*
2020-06-19 22:01:16 acdw now pages are great
2020-06-19 22:01:22 ⚡ tiwesdaeg cries in git
2020-06-19 22:01:22 acdw nownownow.com I think?
2020-06-19 22:01:37 @tomasino .project
2020-06-19 22:01:40 @tomasino yes, not .profile
2020-06-19 22:01:41 ~tiwesdaeg I was going to try a pull request and It's so complicated
2020-06-19 22:01:55 @tomasino but .plan is right
2020-06-19 22:01:57 xq where? github?
2020-06-19 22:02:03 ~tiwesdaeg yeah
2020-06-19 22:02:07 xq hm
2020-06-19 22:02:15 ~tiwesdaeg .pizza
2020-06-19 22:02:32 xq fork the repo, create a new branch with the feature you want to push, push that branch to github, then click the link in the terminal :D
2020-06-19 22:02:35 @tomasino xq: https://ttm.sh/QpG.txt
2020-06-19 22:02:37 xq or create a PR by hand
2020-06-19 22:02:44 xq DAMN
2020-06-19 22:02:46 ~tiwesdaeg toppings = onion, jalapeno, ham
2020-06-19 22:02:53 xq i get warnings that this stuff is deprecated here …
2020-06-19 22:03:04 xq and i should use fm.horizontalAdvance instead of fm.width
2020-06-19 22:03:07 yeti no garlic?
2020-06-19 22:03:10 yeti ts ts ts
2020-06-19 22:03:16 acdw mmm garlic
2020-06-19 22:03:17 ~tiwesdaeg it's everywhere in the crust and sauce
2020-06-19 22:03:22 yeti ok
2020-06-19 22:03:59 ~tiwesdaeg I think I had a github account once
2020-06-19 22:04:51 xq tomasino, pushed a fix
2020-06-19 22:05:08 @tomasino yay
2020-06-19 22:05:40 @tomasino oh you and the asserts
2020-06-19 22:05:54 @tomasino https://ttm.sh/QpK.txt
2020-06-19 22:06:12 xq it does work here! :D
2020-06-19 22:06:47 @tomasino hehe
2020-06-19 22:08:13 xq you have to wait a bit for that fix
2020-06-19 22:08:16 xq can you make a PR? :D
2020-06-19 22:08:54 @tomasino :P
2020-06-19 22:13:02 @tomasino xq: https://ttm.sh/Qpz.txt
2020-06-19 22:13:03 @tomasino diff
2020-06-19 22:13:35 @tomasino hey, auto-expanded document structure! woo
2020-06-19 22:14:01 xq yep
2020-06-19 22:15:16 xq patched, but not pushed
2020-06-19 22:15:43 @tomasino who is mozz on irc?
2020-06-19 22:15:50 xq there's a hot feature coming up!
2020-06-19 22:16:07 xq it's both security and convenience feature at the same time :
2020-06-19 22:16:14 @tomasino mozz person, i also have a favicon on tilde.black!
2020-06-19 22:16:23 @tomasino i like double features
2020-06-19 22:16:33 @tomasino nice new kristall icon too
2020-06-19 22:16:48 xq spoiler: it will make playing astrobotany even more joyful
2020-06-19 22:17:02 @tomasino yay
2020-06-19 22:17:10 @tomasino oh, feature request: rename bookmarks
2020-06-19 22:17:15 @tomasino something human-readable
2020-06-19 22:18:06 xq it's on the bucket list already
2020-06-19 22:18:27 xq 0.4 though
2020-06-19 22:18:40 @tomasino cool
2020-06-19 22:18:51 @tomasino i like just throwing out requests at you
2020-06-19 22:18:55 @tomasino you're so fast at these things
2020-06-19 22:19:06 @tomasino meanwhile i get a request on my RSVP plugin and i'm like.... eh, nah
2020-06-19 22:19:38 xq i love coding applications *for* people
2020-06-19 22:19:48 xq so people can use their computer better
2020-06-19 22:19:57 xq i do that for a living and for a hobby
2020-06-19 22:20:59 @tomasino :)
2020-06-19 22:21:02 @tomasino this is a nice one
2020-06-19 22:21:13 @tomasino hm, i wonder if a rsvp for gemini would be good to make
2020-06-19 22:21:15 @tomasino hmmmmmm
2020-06-19 22:21:28 @tomasino https://ino.is/stutter -- this is my browser plugin
2020-06-19 22:22:06 @tomasino it would be very easy to handle gemini parsing. It could even be combined with a line-by-line step method
2020-06-19 22:22:22 @tomasino UI would be the annoying bit
2020-06-19 22:22:28 acdw has quit (Client exited)
2020-06-19 22:22:46 xq what does that do?
2020-06-19 22:22:55 @tomasino rapid serial visual presentation?
2020-06-19 22:23:02 @tomasino click the video link in the readme
2020-06-19 22:23:07 @tomasino it'll explain it better than words
2020-06-19 22:23:42 xq oh, interesting
2020-06-19 22:24:15 @tomasino i use it on longform stuf all the time and read around 1000wpm
2020-06-19 22:24:42 @tomasino there's a bunch of science under the hood on specific rules around timing of words and punctuation to make it more understandable and retainable
2020-06-19 22:25:01 ▬▬▶ acdw has joined #gemini
2020-06-19 22:25:08 @tomasino i've got a journal paper right now on my todo for implementation to add "flankers" to the display. The words before and after the target word
2020-06-19 22:25:19 @tomasino they nominally help retention, even if they're gibberish
2020-06-19 22:25:24 thewetcrab Just found this, haven't watched it all but have a feeling you will like it
2020-06-19 22:25:24 thewetcrab https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szdbKz5CyhA
2020-06-19 22:25:26 @tomasino real interesting study in canada
2020-06-19 22:27:02 @tomasino i love this video
2020-06-19 22:27:06 @tomasino i love the guy's password too
2020-06-19 22:27:19 krixano Ok, my howdoi interface for gemini is finally done!
2020-06-19 22:27:25 krixano gemini://pon.ix.tc:1965/cgi-bin/howdoi.cgi?split%20string%20in%20golang
2020-06-19 22:27:28 @tomasino yay!
2020-06-19 22:28:39 @tomasino this video is making me so happy
2020-06-19 22:28:59 xq that video is retro!
2020-06-19 22:31:51 @tomasino the ending is STELLAR
2020-06-19 22:31:53 @tomasino holy shit
2020-06-19 22:32:22 @tomasino cat: you are gonna love this! it's right up your alley - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szdbKz5CyhA
2020-06-19 22:37:06 thewetcrab tomasino I loved his password too - super secure for sure! :')
2020-06-19 22:37:14 @tomasino 1234
2020-06-19 22:37:16 @tomasino amazing
2020-06-19 22:37:31 thewetcrab I think you might be right, but don't tell anyone. We can't let anyone know ha ha
2020-06-19 22:37:33 @tomasino phenominal find
2020-06-19 22:37:40 thewetcrab This video makes me happy too, but I can't tell you why
2020-06-19 22:37:49 @tomasino seeeeeecrets
2020-06-19 22:38:01 thewetcrab I think I will have a retro / old web section on my gopher/gemini with link to things like the video
2020-06-19 22:38:12 @tomasino do you have the same awesome sweater as that host? cause she was pulling it off well
2020-06-19 22:38:18 thewetcrab In the past I will have collected a few things, but I probably don't know where they are now
2020-06-19 22:39:37 thewetcrab My jumpers aren't quite as good as the hosts, I have long sleeves on my jumpers but they are similar-ish
2020-06-19 22:40:20 ~tiwesdaeg didn't they also broadcast data via bbc radio back then?
2020-06-19 22:41:05 thewetcrab I'm not sure tiwesdaeg, do you mean broadcast a data audio tone for people to record?
2020-06-19 22:41:11 @tomasino yeah
2020-06-19 22:41:58 ▬▬▶ Ernoz has joined #gemini
2020-06-19 22:42:54 thewetcrab Not as far as I am aware, but it sounds like it could be possible
2020-06-19 22:43:11 thewetcrab tomasino another amazing retro video for you - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Vw1NKuWMDY
2020-06-19 22:43:50 thewetcrab four 4's for the password :D
2020-06-19 22:44:31 xq lovely
2020-06-19 22:44:45 xq tomasino, tiwesdaeg: pull and fetch the latest kristall feature:
2020-06-19 22:44:47 @tomasino i'm crushing on jane ashton now
2020-06-19 22:45:13 xq Client Certificate host restriction + auto-enable
2020-06-19 22:45:45 thewetcrab I like that there is a welcome screen, it reminds me of when I was doing a website for someone and they wanted a 'welcome page' and I was like ....... no, no, no, people know they are on your website, they navigated to it on purpose, let's cut straight to the content and have the blog as the front page.
2020-06-19 22:46:12 thewetcrab This was in my web 2.0 days, which I am now (almost literally/physically/mental) trying to recover from.
2020-06-19 22:46:16 xq https://i.imgur.com/zq1zXdQ.png
2020-06-19 22:46:43 acdw xq that is amazine
2020-06-19 22:46:44 acdw g
2020-06-19 22:47:00 xq it's really nice that it's actually BOTH security AND convenience
2020-06-19 22:47:13 xq i don't want the astrobotany certificate outside astrobotany
2020-06-19 22:47:16 xq but i want it there always
2020-06-19 22:47:22 xq → use the same pattern for both
2020-06-19 22:47:24 thewetcrab tomasino Why all of a sudden do I have Waynes World in my head "She's a babe" ..... "She's a mega babe" .... ha ha
2020-06-19 22:48:00 acdw If she were a president she'd be Babraham Lincoln
2020-06-19 22:48:26 acdw That is funny but did not age well
2020-06-19 22:49:44 thewetcrab Yeah probably very sexist now amongst other -isms no doubt
2020-06-19 22:50:16 xq okay, enough for today. i'll go to bed
2020-06-19 22:50:22 xq alarm goes in 7 hours already
2020-06-19 22:50:27 acdw o/
2020-06-19 22:50:43 thewetcrab Why does Prestel / Micronet 800 look like teletext?
2020-06-19 22:50:53 thewetcrab Does everyone know what telext was?
2020-06-19 22:51:55 thewetcrab Prestell has over 150,000 pages of information that are constantly updated ...... like wow! :D
2020-06-19 22:52:41 thewetcrab There is definitely a brevity to the information on prestel pages tomasino
2020-06-19 22:53:35 thewetcrab pestel looks suspiciously similar to gopher, just with colour
2020-06-19 22:53:43 @tomasino ahh, you want color gopher?
2020-06-19 22:53:44 @tomasino :D
2020-06-19 22:53:48 @tomasino we've got you covered
2020-06-19 22:53:52 @tomasino check out some of the stuff on tilde.pink
2020-06-19 22:53:56 thewetcrab well about 5 colours maybe
2020-06-19 22:53:58 @tomasino you'll want to use not lynx though
2020-06-19 22:54:05 @tomasino vf1, maybe
2020-06-19 22:54:11 thewetcrab What do I use in place of lynx on windows10?
2020-06-19 22:54:26 @tomasino brilliant feature xq
2020-06-19 22:54:44 @tomasino no clue... color is done with ansi color codes, so it probably won't work at all on windows
2020-06-19 22:54:58 @tomasino it's not very wide spread because it only works in certain places
2020-06-19 22:55:56 acdw ansi color codes *sort of* work on windows
2020-06-19 22:56:02 acdw but they're different
2020-06-19 22:56:04 acdw afaik
2020-06-19 22:56:17 thewetcrab Just browsing tilde-pink, I love the news section, everything one one page,
2020-06-19 22:56:24 companion_cube ahaha amazing, wikipedia on gemini
2020-06-19 22:56:36 thewetcrab I'll have to find something that works with colour on win10 later
2020-06-19 22:56:46 acdw has quit (Client exited)
2020-06-19 22:57:17 thewetcrab I am debating how / if I should break things up across pages or if I should just have long pages. Is there a rule of thumb for this tomasino?
2020-06-19 22:57:26 @tomasino nope, do as you like
2020-06-19 22:57:49 thewetcrab For instance the tilde-pink old news section, each new article could be it's own page? Why did you choose one long page?
2020-06-19 22:58:11 @tomasino i didn't make tilde.pink. that's tiwesdaeg's tilde with a bunch of users
2020-06-19 22:58:29 @tomasino i suspect the news is treated like a changelog
2020-06-19 22:58:32 @tomasino so it's just a simple file
2020-06-19 22:59:01 @tomasino shufei's gemini capsule has her gemlog as one big document, though... so you can do it for other stuff
2020-06-19 22:59:07 @tomasino however you like, thewetcrab
2020-06-19 22:59:07 ~tiwesdaeg Copy paste forget
2020-06-19 23:00:00 @tomasino i do something similar with the changelog that appears in the motd on cosmic.voyage. I have a single file in the wiki for my changelog and i just grab the first few blocks of it to display in the motd
2020-06-19 23:00:02 thewetcrab hi tiwesdaeg we are just discussing tilde-pink, any reason why you made the old news page a single file rather than a new document for each news item?
2020-06-19 23:00:13 ~tiwesdaeg Jane Ashton that hot chick from the 80s video?
2020-06-19 23:00:21 @tomasino yep
2020-06-19 23:00:26 @tomasino hubba hubba
2020-06-19 23:00:29 ~tiwesdaeg Less complicated?
2020-06-19 23:00:36 thewetcrab tomasino does VF1 run on linux do you know?
2020-06-19 23:00:38 ~tiwesdaeg We are in agreement
2020-06-19 23:00:41 @tomasino yes
2020-06-19 23:00:47 @tomasino pip3 install VF-1
2020-06-19 23:00:51 thewetcrab Yes I can see how it is easier from a sysops point of viow
2020-06-19 23:00:59 @tomasino then the executable is vf1
2020-06-19 23:01:08 @tomasino assuming you have python3 installed
2020-06-19 23:01:11 thewetcrab Cool might go install that on my linux machinne now just so I can see the pretty colous :)
2020-06-19 23:01:30 @tomasino once you do that, also: pip3 install AV-98
2020-06-19 23:01:38 @tomasino executable is "av98" and that is for browsing gemini
2020-06-19 23:01:57 @tomasino vf1 and av98 have identical user guides. One is for gopher, one is for gemini. Both made by solderpunk
2020-06-19 23:02:03 @tomasino time to make coffee
2020-06-19 23:02:05 @tomasino back in a bit
2020-06-19 23:03:29 thewetcrab wow just watched an advert for prestel, it must have been a revolution back then!
2020-06-19 23:03:52 thewetcrab ah thank you tomasino I will go do that right now!
2020-06-19 23:04:23 thewetcrab then it's time for me to go shortly, didn't make much progress with my gophermap, but it's been fun chatting and discovering more of the old web with you all :)
2020-06-19 23:10:05 thewetcrab Just bookmarking a few vital tabs before I go install the gemini / gopher clients on linux ....
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2020-06-19 23:22:17 makeworld Anyone have good links for testing different encodings besides the two client tests?
2020-06-19 23:22:27 makeworld Like JIS, or korean encodings, etc
2020-06-19 23:22:39 makeworld Testing out extra charset support for Amfora
2020-06-19 23:23:07 thewetcrab Just found another awesome article about why old web standards are better than modern news feeds. This is really worth a read - https://prtksxna.com/never-nothing-to-see/
2020-06-19 23:27:40 thewetcrab Another interesting thought here, it's a good reminder for myself that not everything needs to be in reverse chronological order - https://prtksxna.com/bookmark-how-the-blog-broke-the-web/
2020-06-19 23:28:14 thewetcrab So I guess my Gopher/Gemini with be exactly that. An archive (or list) of things I curate because I find them interesting or useful
2020-06-19 23:35:13 thewetcrab Do VF-1 and AV-98 get run from the command line?
2020-06-19 23:43:36 thewetcrab I will call back tomorrow but I have both of those installed now :)
2020-06-19 23:44:42 kensanata Both run in a terminal
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2020-06-19 23:46:07 krixano I'm like so close to getting youtube video downloads working for my gemini interface
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2020-06-20 00:14:35 thewetcrab more lovely content about the old web (or at least the 90s web) - https://mxb.dev/blog/the-return-of-the-90s-web/
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2020-06-20 00:31:14 makeworld Does anyone know if gemini://egsam.pitr.ca/3.3.utf16 is proper UTF-16?
2020-06-20 00:31:40 makeworld The portal gives an error: https://portal.mozz.us/gemini/egsam.pitr.ca/3.3.utf16
2020-06-20 00:32:04 makeworld And my client which should be able to work with UTF-16, displays: ᑭ쌕ᔤ�
2020-06-20 00:33:43 makeworld But I don't know if that's correct or not
2020-06-20 00:34:46 makeworld Hmm nvm, it looks like that's correct
2020-06-20 00:35:05 makeworld I get m�$� when I cat it in the terminal, so the above must be correct
2020-06-20 00:44:23 makeworld Alright, so now Amfora supports over 55 charsets
2020-06-20 00:44:31 makeworld Hard to tell you which ones, but it does
2020-06-20 00:44:32 makeworld Lol
2020-06-20 00:46:54 Sario528 Woo!
2020-06-20 00:47:22 Sario528 Now to figure out why Amfora doesn't want to work for me.
2020-06-20 00:50:22 makeworld Oh, what's the issue?
2020-06-20 00:55:59 makeworld Sario528
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2020-06-20 01:00:47 Sario528 Client doesn't seem to want to connect to anything
2020-06-20 01:02:00 Sario528 Does the client require a cert before it'll connect?
2020-06-20 01:10:04 makeworld No, it should work fine
2020-06-20 01:10:09 makeworld What's the error?
2020-06-20 01:10:15 makeworld And platform you're on?
2020-06-20 01:11:22 makeworld Sario528: Sorry, got to go now. Feel free to file an issue on Github so that we can track this further
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2020-06-20 03:45:19 makeworld Sario528: Idk if you saw my msg, since you left. If you're still experiencing an issue the best thing might be to open an issue an Github, since I'll be going to bed soon
2020-06-20 05:09:24 styan I (finally) added proxy support to libgeminiclient(3), so now I can use gemini-cat(1) instead of geminawk(1) for ill-behaved onion capsules. :-)
2020-06-20 05:10:53 styan I also had an idea. Something like gemini-cat(1), but it runs something based off of the mime-type and pipes the document into it.
2020-06-20 05:11:47 styan The real question is, gemini-stream(1), gemini-open(1), or gemini-plumb(1)?
2020-06-20 05:25:09 @tomasino plumb!
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2020-06-20 07:37:51 xq styan: gemini-open, as plumb is "reserved" by the plan9 guys :D
2020-06-20 07:46:52 xq ha!
2020-06-20 07:46:58 xq Kristall survived the torture suite
2020-06-20 07:47:03 xq shoutout to Qt here!
2020-06-20 07:47:03 xq :D
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2020-06-20 08:43:58 styan It is gemini-pipe(1), and it is in the libgeminiclient repository.
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2020-06-20 08:46:07 styan It does not have pattern matching (yet?), or any preloaded mime-types. It does, however, have examples in the man-page.
2020-06-20 10:01:47 `epochbot where's libgeminiclient?
2020-06-20 10:05:47 `epochbot if I could start using stuff others have written instead of using more of my own terrible code I'd like to
2020-06-20 10:22:54 styan `epochbot: https://tildegit.org/styan/libgeminiclient
2020-06-20 10:24:35 styan It is LibreSSL only, though I think that someone (who understands TLS better than me) could make a libtls for some other library.
2020-06-20 10:28:57 ⚡ `epochbot checks out the code for url parsing and percent-encoding
2020-06-20 10:30:21 styan I do not think that it does full url parsing, just enough to extract the host and port.
2020-06-20 10:32:17 styan Oh, it just skipped the most obnoxious part (IPv6) because tls_connect would fail anyway.
2020-06-20 10:42:53 `epochbot seems like no libtls in debian, so I'll have to install it myself.
2020-06-20 10:57:24 styan I hope the README does a good enough job at explaining my weird Makefile.
2020-06-20 10:59:12 `epochbot still building libressl and libtls atm
2020-06-20 10:59:29 `epochbot a link to this from the readme would be handy
2020-06-20 10:59:51 `epochbot one line to prevent having to use a search engine. :)
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2020-06-20 11:08:23 `epochbot so, message/gemini
2020-06-20 11:09:29 styan `epochbot: I added a PREREQUISITES section.
2020-06-20 11:10:20 `epochbot :) thank you
2020-06-20 11:10:34 styan Thank you for the suggestion. :-)
2020-06-20 11:13:37 `epochbot I'm thinking of making message/* handlers and things that will return data in that format so the code that makes the request is separate from the code that parses the request
2020-06-20 11:15:25 `epochbot looks like libressl is using some other way of picking the directory it expects to be installed to other than PREFIX or prefix
2020-06-20 11:16:00 `epochbot uses prefix in most places...
2020-06-20 11:16:46 `epochbot or I probably missed an option for configure
2020-06-20 11:17:04 `epochbot merp. yep
2020-06-20 11:17:20 `epochbot ./configure --prefix
2020-06-20 11:18:14 styan I wonder if my code will break on Linux due to two uses of strlcpy(3).
2020-06-20 11:18:52 styan Also, the message thing sounds neat.
2020-06-20 11:19:51 `epochbot it should be applicable to message/http too, gopher doesn't have any response headers so...
2020-06-20 11:22:21 `epochbot I can never remember the syntax for "case" in bash
2020-06-20 11:22:32 styan It looks like musl has strlcpy, but glibc does not.
2020-06-20 11:27:37 styan Okay, it *should* work with glibc now.
2020-06-20 11:36:32 `epochbot it built
2020-06-20 11:36:40 `epochbot not even the warning it had before
2020-06-20 11:36:55 `epochbot well, "make" went find
2020-06-20 11:36:57 `epochbot fine*
2020-06-20 11:37:09 ⚡ `epochbot make all
2020-06-20 11:37:35 `epochbot built gemini-pipe and gemini-cat fine
2020-06-20 11:37:39 `epochbot no warnings
2020-06-20 11:38:16 styan Cool
2020-06-20 11:38:27 ~tiwesdaeg xq: I'm finally pulling kristall now
2020-06-20 11:38:39 `epochbot gemini-cat ran against my own server
2020-06-20 11:39:56 `epochbot I built it to ~/.local instead of as root to /usr/local
2020-06-20 11:42:23 `epochbot I guess there's gotta be a stream vs file distinction for mime-type handler programs
2020-06-20 11:42:40 styan I do not think that I have ever run the install targets from that Makefile, so I am glad that it worked. :-)
2020-06-20 11:42:41 `epochbot where a stream handler just gets the data from stdin
2020-06-20 11:43:21 `epochbot oh. hrm. I did install for libtls and stuff
2020-06-20 11:43:43 `epochbot install target is missing "libgeminiclient.3"
2020-06-20 11:43:52 `epochbot ah.
2020-06-20 11:43:55 `epochbot there's a typo.
2020-06-20 11:44:02 `epochbot gemeni instead of gemini
2020-06-20 11:44:21 `epochbot make: *** No rule to make target 'libgem>>>e<<<niclient.3', needed by 'install'. Stop.
2020-06-20 11:44:55 styan Fixed, thanks!
2020-06-20 11:45:39 `epochbot install -m444 libgeminiclient.3 \
2020-06-20 11:45:39 `epochbot "$DESTDIR/${PREFIX-usr/local}/${MANDIR:-man}/man3/"
2020-06-20 11:45:41 `epochbot install: target '//home/epoch/.local/man/man3/' is not a directory: No such file or directory
2020-06-20 11:45:52 `epochbot I don't have all the man dirs made already I guess.
2020-06-20 11:46:53 `epochbot is there a -D in the BSD version of install? I think I remember there wasn't
2020-06-20 11:47:58 `epochbot it means a different thing I think
2020-06-20 11:48:22 styan There are `-D' (destination directory) and `-d' (create missing directories).
2020-06-20 11:49:02 `epochbot -d, --directory
2020-06-20 11:49:03 `epochbot treat all arguments as directory names; create all components of the specified directories
2020-06-20 11:49:11 `epochbot -D create all leading components of DEST except the last, or all components of --target-directory, then copy SOURCE to DEST
2020-06-20 11:49:14 `epochbot that's what they mean here
2020-06-20 11:50:09 styan "-d Create directories. Missing parent directories are created as required."
2020-06-20 11:50:31 `epochbot I think I remembered having this problem with trying to make BSD and Linux safe makefiles before and I just used mkdir -p before the install lines
2020-06-20 11:50:47 `epochbot but I might have just missed something back then, or stuff changed
2020-06-20 11:52:23 `epochbot -d doesn't seem right for this, since libgeminiclient.3 isn't a directory?
2020-06-20 11:52:59 `epochbot maybe the point of -d for install was to be able to make all the dirs you'll need at once
2020-06-20 11:53:02 styan I do not really want to mess with the directory hiarachy when copying files anyway, so I will just leave it like it is.
2020-06-20 11:53:09 `epochbot alright.
2020-06-20 11:53:23 `epochbot leave it up to the user to decide which dirs to make. :)
2020-06-20 11:54:06 `epochbot hrm.
2020-06-20 11:54:11 styan I think that it might be more common to forget to change the prefix than not have man3, being my reasoning :-)
2020-06-20 11:54:31 `epochbot should it be /usr/local/share/man instead of /usr/local/man ?
2020-06-20 11:55:04 styan Not on BSDs :-)
2020-06-20 11:55:05 ⚡ `epochbot export MANDIR=share/man
2020-06-20 11:55:26 `epochbot ^ that worked
2020-06-20 11:55:45 `epochbot another thing to toss into the readme? :)
2020-06-20 11:56:33 styan I see no harm :-)
2020-06-20 12:04:36 styan I wonder, can it be safely assumed that it is always "share/man" on Linux?
2020-06-20 12:05:15 styan Anyway, there is another new section in the README.
2020-06-20 12:06:22 `epochbot Iiiiiii dunno
2020-06-20 12:13:05 `epochbot I think I'm going to have message handlers attempt to run a stream handler for the mime-type, but if that fails, it falls back to saving the file and launching and opener on that.
2020-06-20 12:13:16 `epochbot an*
2020-06-20 12:13:54 `epochbot hrm...
2020-06-20 12:14:12 ⚡ `epochbot checks mime-type parameters
2020-06-20 12:14:18 ~tiwesdaeg xq: I finally figured out that pull request thingy
2020-06-20 12:20:49 `epochbot would it make sense to use a parameter to indicate that the data is a "stream" and won't EOF by itself (under normal circumstances)
2020-06-20 12:23:33 `epochbot I'm trying to see if I can find a list of common parameters
2020-06-20 12:26:15 `epochbot that might be the wrong spot to put that info
2020-06-20 12:27:11 `epochbot and gemini might be the wrong protocol for it, no matter how neat it might be to have client-cert authed tails of logs
2020-06-20 12:49:16 `epochbot hrm..
2020-06-20 12:58:40 `epochbot well, it can do weird stuff but not normal stuff anymore.
2020-06-20 12:58:56 `epochbot hurray re... wtf is it called?
2020-06-20 12:58:59 `epochbot refactoring
2020-06-20 13:24:30 `epochbot k. close enough. push'd. going to bed.
2020-06-20 13:25:16 `epochbot if you want to see it, start here and follow the subprocesses https://github.com/kkabrams/geminiclient/blob/master/gemini-handler
2020-06-20 13:39:08 `epochbot what should the user:pass portion of a URI mean for gemini?
2020-06-20 13:39:25 `epochbot could we use it as a selector for our client-side cert?
2020-06-20 13:39:35 `epochbot based on fingerprint I guess
2020-06-20 13:39:40 `epochbot I think ssh might do that type of thing
2020-06-20 13:41:12 `epochbot hrm. looks like the fingerprint argument is for the fingerprint of the host.
2020-06-20 13:41:44 `epochbot but we could use the user portion to select client-side cert anyway
2020-06-20 14:52:20 ⚡ xq is back
2020-06-20 14:52:24 xq now: reading PRs
2020-06-20 14:56:02 jeffpc has quit (The TLS connection was non-properly terminated.)
2020-06-20 14:58:15 @tomasino oh nice, deedum in the app store
2020-06-20 14:58:23 @tomasino that's WAY easier to deal with
2020-06-20 14:58:26 xq cool
2020-06-20 14:58:41 xq i think i'll make Kristall 0.5 the "android release"
2020-06-20 14:58:45 xq with a mobile build option
2020-06-20 14:58:52 @tomasino oooo
2020-06-20 14:59:01 xq test build already worked
2020-06-20 14:59:11 @tomasino oh cool
2020-06-20 14:59:12 xq you *can* surf gemini space on android
2020-06-20 14:59:17 xq but it's not comfortable
2020-06-20 15:12:22 xfnw lol
2020-06-20 15:12:47 xq xfnw: there was a screenshot in here some days ago D
2020-06-20 15:12:53 xq settings menu is completly unusable
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2020-06-20 15:47:08 ~tiwesdaeg Getting closer
2020-06-20 15:47:23 ~tiwesdaeg I'm on my mid bikeride break
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2020-06-20 16:46:45 ~tiwesdaeg I survived!
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2020-06-20 16:52:28 xq \/
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2020-06-20 19:44:02 krixano xq, I removed svg from the Windows build, but now I'm getting the same error for libQt5MultimediaWidgests.a
2020-06-20 19:44:03 krixano > No rule to make target 'D:/a/kristall/Qt/5.12.9/msvc2017_64/lib/libQt5MultimediaWidgets.a', needed by 'release/kristall.exe'. Stop.
2020-06-20 19:45:39 xq hm
2020-06-20 19:45:45 xq have you installed the multimedia package on windows?
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2020-06-20 19:47:10 krixano I was just using your build.yml file from before when it still had Windows, so that's all I'm working with, lol
2020-06-20 19:47:21 xq ah
2020-06-20 19:47:25 xq yeah i have no idea lol
2020-06-20 19:47:35 xq the qtfetch thingy is weird
2020-06-20 19:49:35 xq working with gh-actions is horrible
2020-06-20 19:49:42 xq i'd love to have a dryrun feature
2020-06-20 19:50:00 krixano Ok, I found the options for the qt install thing... it needs the arch to be set to mingw
2020-06-20 19:50:29 xq ah
2020-06-20 19:50:29 xq !
2020-06-20 19:50:37 xq sounds about correct
2020-06-20 19:50:44 krixano It's set to use msvc by default
2020-06-20 19:50:46 krixano https://github.com/jurplel/install-qt-action
2020-06-20 19:52:04 xq ah yeah, that explains a lot
2020-06-20 19:55:42 xq okay, certificate import/export is now working
2020-06-20 19:55:51 xq you can now share certificates between kristall and the outer world! :)
2020-06-20 19:56:22 @tomasino it's a good day
2020-06-20 20:01:38 xq tomorrow will be a better one even
2020-06-20 20:01:49 xq there's one smaller job missing
2020-06-20 20:01:54 xq (renaming groups)
2020-06-20 20:03:06 xq then 0.3 is ready to release except for explanatory videos as well as a manual update :)
2020-06-20 20:03:47 xq kinda looking forward to writing the manual
2020-06-20 20:04:01 xq as it will be nice to see what new features have appeared :)
2020-06-20 20:05:06 xq looking at the diff between 0.2 and 0.3 will be huge though :D
2020-06-20 20:05:18 krixano I'm really annoyed. The qt install github action is failing for win32_mingw53, and it seems to be in an endless loop with the other mingw arch (win64_mingw73)
2020-06-20 20:05:38 xq don't use win32, use win64
2020-06-20 20:05:50 xq but it sounds like "classic windows c++ dev"
2020-06-20 20:05:52 xq :(
2020-06-20 20:05:52 krixano win64 goes in an endless loop
2020-06-20 20:06:04 xq have to set up a clean windows machine to make a build env
2020-06-20 20:06:08 krixano As in, the action never finishes
2020-06-20 20:06:19 xq how long did you wait?
2020-06-20 20:06:38 krixano Idk, but definitely past the time it took for both ubuntu versions to finish
2020-06-20 20:07:00 xq ah
2020-06-20 20:07:07 xq yeah, that sounds broken
2020-06-20 20:11:58 krixano It gets stuck trying to download the qtxmlpatterns 7zip file
2020-06-20 20:14:11 krixano I'm gonna try changing the mirror to see if that works better
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2020-06-20 20:17:06 krixano xq, what version of qt are you using?
2020-06-20 20:17:30 xq personally? 5.15
2020-06-20 20:17:44 xq kristall is kinda downgraded though and has checks in it for older versions
2020-06-20 20:17:54 xq but i should probably define a "at least 5.X" version
2020-06-20 20:23:41 xq akf
2020-06-20 20:23:42 krixano GAAAAAH! I'm gonna get this stupid freaking thing working if it's the last thing I do before I die.
2020-06-20 20:23:43 xq *afk
2020-06-20 20:23:46 @tomasino do it
2020-06-20 20:25:02 krixano I'm getting an "Error when parsing package information" from aqt, which is what the action uses
2020-06-20 20:25:30 krixano aqtinstall: https://github.com/miurahr/aqtinstall/
2020-06-20 20:28:22 krixano I'm just gonna point out that a lot of this is Linux people trying to build on Windows, lmao. Linux people like to try to do everything the "linux way" when working on Windows, which doesn't work, like, at all. Partially because the linux way is crappy, but anyways.
2020-06-20 20:29:18 krixano It Almost Worked!!!!!
2020-06-20 20:29:26 krixano One last error:
2020-06-20 20:29:36 krixano > g++.exe: error: C:/Program Files/Git/permissive-: No such file or directory
2020-06-20 20:34:49 krixano Linux Building Rules: 1.) Never provide pre-build binaries to users, 2.) Require a million dependencies, 3.) Dynamic link everything so that everything breaks in the future when the needed versions are no longer provided, 4.) Require the user to use the terminal to type in a bunch of commands, 5.) Make sure your build doesn't always work
2020-06-20 20:45:35 krixano xq: https://github.com/krixano/kristall/runs/791380800?check_suite_focus=true
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2020-06-20 21:07:10 thewe Hello, just a couple of things I wanted to share with you this evening.
2020-06-20 21:08:03 thewe Following on from yesterday with Prestel / videotex ........ I found out France's pre-internet was called Minitel.
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2020-06-20 21:08:36 thewe There is a somewhat interesting video about minitel here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOhK9bgQo8g
2020-06-20 21:08:55 thewe It's worth watching to see that lovely old terminal device!
2020-06-20 21:10:12 thewe For those of you who are interested in the IndieWeb, there is an indieweb event coming up next week. With an orientation / getting started session this coming Monday - https://events.indieweb.org/2020/06/indiewebcamp-west-2020-pre-camp-preparation-2RQdxVoc6jBX
2020-06-20 21:11:13 ℹ thewe is now known as thewetcrab
2020-06-20 21:11:47 thewetcrab Ah that's better, don't know what happened there!
2020-06-20 21:34:59 paper is typed-hole.org down? who is the owner?
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2020-06-20 21:52:09 thewetcrab paper I can access it via https://
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2020-06-20 22:08:47 paper it seems like only gemini is down there
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2020-06-21 09:18:21 xq <krixano> Partially because the linux way is crappy, but anyways.
2020-06-21 09:18:38 xq the windows way is even more crappy, because you have to build your whole dev environment frm scratch
2020-06-21 09:19:47 xq the /permissive thing is solvable
2020-06-21 09:20:17 xq can you make a pr for that?
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2020-06-21 12:16:07 xq hello people!
2020-06-21 12:21:33 xq Kristall 0.3 is feature-complete!
2020-06-21 12:22:06 xq next up: update the manual :)
2020-06-21 12:26:36 ~tiwesdaeg hello!
2020-06-21 12:26:44 ~tiwesdaeg I finally got netbsd to boot up
2020-06-21 12:26:51 ~tiwesdaeg had some weird UEFI issues
2020-06-21 12:27:18 ~tiwesdaeg kristall build fails, woo!
2020-06-21 12:37:54 ~tiwesdaeg xq: https://ttm.sh/QAT.txt
2020-06-21 12:45:25 xq let's fix this!
2020-06-21 12:46:42 ~tiwesdaeg yes!
2020-06-21 12:47:03 ~tiwesdaeg so, I definitely have libiconv
2020-06-21 12:47:17 ~tiwesdaeg I'm guessing netbsd is being weird about something
2020-06-21 12:49:36 xq okay, pushed a fix attempt
2020-06-21 12:50:11 ~tiwesdaeg pulling
2020-06-21 12:51:26 ~tiwesdaeg https://ttm.sh/QAp.txt
2020-06-21 12:51:31 ~tiwesdaeg slightly different?
2020-06-21 12:51:49 ~tiwesdaeg shorter at least ;P
2020-06-21 12:56:45 xq hm, try again
2020-06-21 13:09:41 ~tiwesdaeg xq: https://ttm.sh/QAA.txt
2020-06-21 13:09:45 ~tiwesdaeg we made it a lot further
2020-06-21 13:09:59 xq neat, it compiles! :D
2020-06-21 13:10:11 xq is libiconv a separate library on netbsd?
2020-06-21 13:11:06 ~tiwesdaeg libiconv-1.14nb3 = Character set conversion library
2020-06-21 13:11:12 ~tiwesdaeg it's a package
2020-06-21 13:11:21 xq okay
2020-06-21 13:11:53 ~tiwesdaeg the = means I have it installed
2020-06-21 13:12:15 xq can you add `LIBS += -liconv` to src/kristall.pro, roughly around line 17 and try again?
2020-06-21 13:12:20 ~tiwesdaeg I really should just install openbsd and freebsd as well to try and torture you
2020-06-21 13:12:28 xq haha :D
2020-06-21 13:15:43 ~tiwesdaeg it compiles!
2020-06-21 13:15:47 xq \o/
2020-06-21 13:15:52 ~tiwesdaeg make install fails though, thanks netbsd
2020-06-21 13:16:49 xq let's see if i can just add -liconv on linux too
2020-06-21 13:17:17 ~tiwesdaeg /usr/pkg/share/icons/hicolor/scalable/apps/
2020-06-21 13:17:28 ~tiwesdaeg that's where the icons should go
2020-06-21 13:18:36 ~tiwesdaeg is there a way to do "if os = netbsd, icon path = /usr/pkg/share/icons/hicolor/scalable/apps/"
2020-06-21 13:18:51 ~tiwesdaeg in a Makefile that is
2020-06-21 13:18:55 xq probably, but i'm no make expert
2020-06-21 13:20:26 ~tiwesdaeg I'm going to go read up on it
2020-06-21 13:20:34 xq can you pull and try again? i added the iconv thingy
2020-06-21 13:20:43 xq oh wait
2020-06-21 13:20:45 xq my push is hanging
2020-06-21 13:26:01 ~tiwesdaeg standing by to stand by
2020-06-21 13:33:34 xq done. had to reboot
2020-06-21 13:46:29 ~tiwesdaeg k
2020-06-21 13:46:57 ~tiwesdaeg running make
2020-06-21 13:51:02 ~tiwesdaeg builds fine
2020-06-21 13:51:14 xq neat
2020-06-21 13:51:29 ~tiwesdaeg the install command is being weird though
2020-06-21 13:51:39 ~tiwesdaeg I changed the prefix and it's still throwing shade
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2020-06-21 15:22:15 ~tiwesdaeg julienxx: how goes 9til.de?
2020-06-21 15:26:13 @julienxx it's starting to take shape :) I had to create a finger server and a client which was pretty fun!
2020-06-21 15:27:58 ~tiwesdaeg the gemini capsule looks great
2020-06-21 15:28:05 ~tiwesdaeg I erally like the ascii glenda
2020-06-21 15:29:14 @julienxx I have to do some benchmarking regarding how many users I could host graphically, the VPS I used has 1GB of ram
2020-06-21 15:29:54 @julienxx which might be a little small but I really don't know
2020-06-21 15:32:56 ~tiwesdaeg Hmm, yeah, I have no idea how much ram is needed to serve a drawterm connection
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2020-06-21 15:35:11 ~tiwesdaeg Are you using 9front?
2020-06-21 15:35:18 @julienxx yes
2020-06-21 15:35:50 ~tiwesdaeg OK, I'll install the 9front fork of drawterm
2020-06-21 15:36:01 ~tiwesdaeg You know, in anticipation
2020-06-21 15:36:21 @julienxx haha I'll let you know once it's opened!
2020-06-21 15:39:26 ~tiwesdaeg cool, it works
2020-06-21 15:40:04 ~tiwesdaeg I've been playing with tomasino's ncat gemini server concept this morning
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2020-06-21 15:48:39 Sario528 Has the astrobotony cert changed in the past ~24 hours?
2020-06-21 15:49:32 Sario528 AV-98 is giving me a warning about a possible man in the middle attack
2020-06-21 15:51:27 @xq yes, it seems so
2020-06-21 15:51:31 @xq Kristall also warned me
2020-06-21 15:53:39 ~tiwesdaeg the government is gathering our certs!
2020-06-21 15:54:23 @xq *screams*
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2020-06-21 15:56:41 ~tiwesdaeg irc fun!
2020-06-21 16:18:33 Sario528 krixano: Thanks for watering my plant :)
2020-06-21 16:24:10 @xq i'm searching for the right word…
2020-06-21 16:24:25 @xq when i visit a new server, it's in "untrusted" state
2020-06-21 16:24:35 @xq when i then use TOFU, it switches to "trusted"
2020-06-21 16:24:48 @xq but when the certificate expires, i want to have a good name for that state
2020-06-21 16:24:53 @xq which right now is mistrusted
2020-06-21 16:25:06 @xq which i don't really like. any recommendations about that state?
2020-06-21 16:25:19 makeworld TOFU in general needs to be specced out more, Solderpunk and I have been talking about it on the mailing list
2020-06-21 16:25:36 makeworld When the cert expires, it's just untrusted again, because anything is valid
2020-06-21 16:25:55 makeworld Well unless you're using your public key only method?
2020-06-21 16:26:38 @xq using the pubkey-only
2020-06-21 16:26:49 @xq i wouldn't say it's the same level of trust as "untrusted" though
2020-06-21 16:26:55 @xq as i now visit i server iÄ've seen before
2020-06-21 16:27:11 @xq but something changed and i now have to see if that's a legitimate change or a MITM attack
2020-06-21 16:28:07 @xq it's a situation i have to handle different
2020-06-21 16:28:29 @xq and i'm just thinking about if "mistrusted" is the right state description
2020-06-21 16:41:26 @xq makeworld: my current error message looks like this: https://mq32.de/public/ee984a8f0efe18c30c176034b61b6d271a7abf4b.png
2020-06-21 17:05:44 @xq > Showing with 5,826 additions and 836 deletions.
2020-06-21 17:05:56 @xq didn't notice that i've done 5kLOC this week :D
2020-06-21 18:22:09 makeworld Nice work!
2020-06-21 18:22:33 makeworld xq: Have you been following the TOFU thread though?
2020-06-21 18:23:10 makeworld I don't think just public key is the right way, I think hash of the SubjectPublicKeyInfo and expiry date is good
2020-06-21 18:23:37 makeworld But that error message looks pretty good
2020-06-21 18:23:53 makeworld The problem is yeah ofc that the user can't really know if it's legit or an MITM
2020-06-21 18:25:21 @xq i just have followed it vaguely, but i'm aware of the problems
2020-06-21 18:26:00 @xq i will read it when i have the time for it though and may adjust the implementation in Kristall
2020-06-21 18:26:36 @xq but imho solderpunk should define the trust model better in the spec so people can rely switching clients without losing/gaining security on that basic level
2020-06-21 18:31:08 @xq oh
2020-06-21 18:31:15 @xq i just noticed that my todo-list isn't empty yet *screams*
2020-06-21 18:31:22 @xq i totally forgot to implement the manual trust thingy
2020-06-21 18:31:34 makeworld Yeah, that's his goal eventually
2020-06-21 18:31:42 makeworld He wants to make a doc
2020-06-21 18:31:57 @xq until then, it's the "it's something" implementation :)
2020-06-21 18:32:10 @xq it's not perfect, but it's there and it provides a base for future implementations
2020-06-21 18:32:31 makeworld Yeah for sure
2020-06-21 18:46:36 @xq > The host you tried to visit is not trusted by Kristall. If you do trust this server, please add it to the list of trusted certificates!
2020-06-21 18:46:36 @xq (which is currently not possible ☹)
2020-06-21 18:46:37 @xq *rofl*
2020-06-21 18:46:42 @xq i should change that probably for the release
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2020-06-21 19:49:21 @xq hey kensanata
2020-06-21 19:49:32 @xq tomasino: who thought that writing a manual would take up half the afternoon?
2020-06-21 19:54:02 kensanata Hah
2020-06-21 19:54:17 kensanata Anybody who has written a manual before could have told you! :P
2020-06-21 19:54:24 @xq haha
2020-06-21 19:54:25 @xq sure
2020-06-21 19:54:28 kensanata And it never ends...
2020-06-21 19:54:31 @xq but hey, writing a manual is important too
2020-06-21 19:54:37 kensanata I know, I know.
2020-06-21 19:54:40 @xq [felix@denkplatte-v2 kristall]$ wc -w src/about/help.gemini
2020-06-21 19:54:40 @xq 3329 src/about/help.gemini
2020-06-21 19:54:43 @xq huh, wow :D
2020-06-21 19:54:44 kensanata I actually like doing it for small things.
2020-06-21 19:55:27 kensanata But for my wiki software, for example, I've declared wiki bankrupcy, ie. I finally admitted that wiki is short for "can't find shit" and that's that.
2020-06-21 19:55:48 @xq :D
2020-06-21 19:56:16 kensanata https://oddmuse.org/wiki?action=index shows 2421 pages.
2020-06-21 19:56:18 kensanata OMG.
2020-06-21 19:56:46 kensanata I can say that "everything is documented". Then I hope they never try to find anything.
2020-06-21 20:02:25 kensanata I'm still pondering my experiment with hosting a Wikipedia proxy and what it tells me about importing Wikipedia to Gemini. gemini://alexschroeder.ch:1965/2020-06-19_Wikipedia_via_Gemini I'm still struggling with it. I think it means it's too complicated a task because I don't have a clear goal myself.
2020-06-21 20:04:54 @xq yeah, having a clear goal helps making good software
2020-06-21 20:05:01 @xq that's why Kristall is already so nice
2020-06-21 20:05:11 @xq i have a feature set in mind and i want to make that real
2020-06-21 20:07:23 kensanata As I was struggling with the code, finding ever more edge cases and issues, I also decided that maybe I had done enough programming for a bit that I needed to do some actual writing instead.
2020-06-21 20:07:46 kensanata So now, whenever I get the urge to code, I ask myself: why don't you write a blog post instead?
2020-06-21 20:08:40 @xq hmm
2020-06-21 20:08:45 @xq i can't answer that question for me
2020-06-21 20:08:57 @xq i have a have-written blog post from start of last month
2020-06-21 20:09:04 @xq returning now and then to continue writing it
2020-06-21 20:09:44 kensanata Heh. My curse and my blessing is that the wiki doesn't know about drafts.
2020-06-21 20:10:02 @xq yeah
2020-06-21 20:10:38 @xq https://random-projects.net/blog/2020-06-10-resource-pooling-for-games.gemini
2020-06-21 20:10:44 @xq started writing this on 27.05
2020-06-21 20:11:03 @xq maybe i'm writing too long posts?
2020-06-21 20:12:21 @xq okay, need to update the changelog, write one last chapter for the manual, then i'm ready to go
2020-06-21 20:15:15 kensanata It sounds like an interesting blog post. Perhaps you could just post it up to "But enough backstory, let's jump right into application design and code!" and start working a part 2 that you can post as late as you want because what you posted stands on its own.
2020-06-21 20:16:03 makeworld I'm working on Amfora's margins, anyone have a suggestion? It's hard to tell what will look good across different terminal sizes
2020-06-21 20:16:19 makeworld Right now I have a left margin of width/9
2020-06-21 20:16:27 makeworld Sorry, I mean /5
2020-06-21 20:16:39 kensanata 205
2020-06-21 20:16:43 kensanata 20%?
2020-06-21 20:16:51 kensanata That sounds like a lot.
2020-06-21 20:17:23 makeworld I guess 20% yeah
2020-06-21 20:17:30 kensanata On this IRC client, for example, I have no margins, but the fill column is set to 65 and wrapped lines have a left margin of 4 spaces.
2020-06-21 20:18:58 @xq kensanata: the backstory part is done, the actual tech content is 50% done
2020-06-21 20:19:26 kensanata (I usually work with maximized windows with a big font on a laptop.)
2020-06-21 20:19:39 @xq same here
2020-06-21 20:19:42 @xq of 50/%0 split for me
2020-06-21 20:21:46 makeworld 15% seems better
2020-06-21 20:21:51 makeworld But I should make it configurable
2020-06-21 20:23:32 @xq configuration is always good
2020-06-21 20:27:56 kensanata For my websites, I use something else: if the screen is wide, I limit the line length and center the text; if the screen is narrow, I use 1em as the margin or something small like that. To me, encoding the margin as fixed percentage makes no sense.
2020-06-21 20:28:13 kensanata The goal, for me, is the optimal line length, not the text-to-margin ratio.
2020-06-21 20:30:13 kensanata Anyway, that's the plan. My CSS is also not very good and so when I checked it just now, it didn't work as I expected it to.
2020-06-21 20:34:43 kensanata I often check the list of sites in GUS and just visit some at random. Today I read gemini://kwiecien.us/
2020-06-21 20:44:34 @xq oh wow
2020-06-21 20:44:40 @xq 22:44 already
2020-06-21 20:44:47 @xq i should fetch something to eat
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2020-06-21 20:46:29 kensanata Yeah, and time to close down over here. CU tomorrow.
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2020-06-21 20:47:10 @xq tomasino, tiwesdaeg, krixano: Kristall 0.3 release candidate is ready, if you wanna run some tests before my release mail, go ahead
2020-06-21 20:47:18 @xq cya kensanata
2020-06-21 20:48:36 kensanata 🚀🚀
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2020-06-21 20:53:40 ~tiwesdaeg kk
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2020-06-21 20:58:24 Sario528 So Deedum is nice
2020-06-21 21:00:20 @xq but happy that i got it done this weekend :)
2020-06-21 21:03:38 ~tiwesdaeg xq: I'm still getting the weird qt issue with dropdown menus having no backgrounds, so you can hardly see the text
2020-06-21 21:04:16 ~tiwesdaeg except for the highlighted option, which moves as you move the mouse
2020-06-21 21:05:06 @xq can you send me a screenshot?
2020-06-21 21:07:42 ~tiwesdaeg xq: https://ttm.sh/QAk.png
2020-06-21 21:07:51 ~tiwesdaeg I'm on manjaro right now
2020-06-21 21:07:52 @xq oh shit
2020-06-21 21:08:06 @xq does it happen with dark theme as well?
2020-06-21 21:08:41 ~tiwesdaeg yes
2020-06-21 21:08:54 ~tiwesdaeg it's not doing that on your end?
2020-06-21 21:09:05 ~tiwesdaeg our build environments should be pretty similar
2020-06-21 21:09:55 @xq nope, it isn't
2020-06-21 21:09:58 @xq yeah, build env yes
2020-06-21 21:10:03 @xq but *definitly* not desktop env
2020-06-21 21:10:09 @xq i use no desktop manager
2020-06-21 21:10:31 @xq only i3 + random collection of utilities
2020-06-21 21:10:46 ~tiwesdaeg hmmm
2020-06-21 21:10:59 ~tiwesdaeg I can boot up something simple
2020-06-21 21:11:37 ~tiwesdaeg this is XFCE right now
2020-06-21 21:13:48 @xq nah, can you pull again and try using "OS Default" theme?
2020-06-21 21:13:59 @xq it will probably work *and* you have a dark theme
2020-06-21 21:17:15 @tomasino woohoo
2020-06-21 21:18:03 ~tiwesdaeg https://ttm.sh/QA8.png
2020-06-21 21:18:18 @xq yeah, can you chose "OS Default" instead of "light" or "dark"?
2020-06-21 21:18:21 @tomasino heh, sexy overlap
2020-06-21 21:19:23 ~tiwesdaeg I did
2020-06-21 21:19:24 @tomasino my OS default is dark, but it used light. I had to manually select dark
2020-06-21 21:19:42 ~tiwesdaeg I tried all options
2020-06-21 21:20:06 @xq tiwesdaeg: it's broken with "OS Default" as well?
2020-06-21 21:20:11 ~tiwesdaeg mine is dark too
2020-06-21 21:20:15 ~tiwesdaeg correct
2020-06-21 21:20:19 @xq weiiird
2020-06-21 21:20:30 @xq i think you discovered a Qt bug
2020-06-21 21:20:35 @xq do you have other Qt programs installed?
2020-06-21 21:21:02 ~tiwesdaeg if I select Light and click ok, when I go back to settings, OS Default is selected
2020-06-21 21:21:14 ~tiwesdaeg if I select dark, it shows Dark selected
2020-06-21 21:21:24 ~tiwesdaeg hmmm, let's see what we've got
2020-06-21 21:21:42 ~tiwesdaeg I'll install konsole
2020-06-21 21:21:52 ~tiwesdaeg I'm sure that's qt based ;P
2020-06-21 21:22:12 @xq install cool-retro-term
2020-06-21 21:23:29 ~tiwesdaeg nope
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2020-06-21 21:23:41 ~tiwesdaeg no issues with it, but the widgets look different
2020-06-21 21:23:51 @xq huh, even with "OS Default"?
2020-06-21 21:23:57 @xq can you send me a comparison screenshot?
2020-06-21 21:26:08 ~tiwesdaeg https://ttm.sh/QA7.png
2020-06-21 21:26:15 ~tiwesdaeg https://ttm.sh/QAJ.png
2020-06-21 21:26:49 @xq interesting
2020-06-21 21:27:10 styan xq: Here is a patch for your Makefile with a handfull of things cleaned up: https://ttm.sh/QAo.patch
2020-06-21 21:27:13 @xq i wonder what is differnet bween our OS
2020-06-21 21:27:39 ~tiwesdaeg I'm pretty sure netbsd also had the same issue
2020-06-21 21:28:28 @xq styan: thanks!
2020-06-21 21:28:52 styan `?=' is portable, and will be in the next major POSIX standard, `install -D' is equivalent to `install -d' on *BSD, and `MAKEFLAGS' is usefull to pass along.
2020-06-21 21:28:59 styan s/usefull/useful
2020-06-21 21:30:52 @xq except for that weird transparency thing, is everything okay?
2020-06-21 21:31:07 styan epoch and I talked about "install -D" vs "install -d" the other day, so it is still fresh in my mind. :-)
2020-06-21 21:33:26 styan xq: Also, Kristall still compilers on my FreeBSD laptop. And still core-dumps if it is compiled while LibreSSL is installed (not a Kristall problem, just a QT problem).
2020-06-21 21:33:46 @xq oh
2020-06-21 21:33:52 @xq thanks for the info, i completly missed that
2020-06-21 21:34:26 ~tiwesdaeg nothing else pops out right now
2020-06-21 21:35:07 @xq yeah, i'll hit release then :D
2020-06-21 21:35:11 styan QT does not support LibreSSL, and FreeBSD's port does not patch it like OpenBSD's port, so there is not much you can do about it.
2020-06-21 21:35:29 @xq oh wait
2020-06-21 21:35:39 @xq i need to write one chapter in the manual still :D
2020-06-21 21:35:42 makeworld Why does QT care what you use for SSL?
2020-06-21 21:35:54 makeworld I thought it's just for graphics?
2020-06-21 21:36:27 styan qt5-network, it does a lot of stuff.
2020-06-21 21:36:48 @xq Qt is a full replacement for the C++ standard lib
2020-06-21 21:36:50 @xq it's not UI
2020-06-21 21:36:53 @xq it's *everything*
2020-06-21 21:37:26 styan So that xq does not have to write winsocks code, or whatever the equivalent is now.
2020-06-21 21:37:48 @xq Network, I/O, Eventing, File Parsing, Widgets (That's what people associate with Qt), SSL/TLS, markdown rendering, video/audio playback, …
2020-06-21 21:37:52 ⚡ styan knows nothing about Windows
2020-06-21 21:38:15 @xq and all of that with first-class crossplatform support
2020-06-21 21:38:46 @tomasino it's pretty neat
2020-06-21 21:38:54 @tomasino first class $$ too
2020-06-21 21:39:06 @tomasino do you have it through a job already?
2020-06-21 21:39:15 @tomasino i don't know how anyone could afford the license as an individual
2020-06-21 21:39:45 @xq tomasino: Qt is either LGPL or $$
2020-06-21 21:40:19 @xq so perfect for open source, but you can do your closed source car software with qt as well
2020-06-21 21:40:25 @tomasino ahha
2020-06-21 21:40:34 @xq as you may have noticed: you build the app from source :D
2020-06-21 21:40:35 @tomasino that makes sense. very nice
2020-06-21 21:40:38 @xq so no licence needed there
2020-06-21 21:40:41 @xq yeah, i really like that concept
2020-06-21 21:40:57 @xq "open source is free, but if you want to be a stupid corporation, you can go closed source as well"
2020-06-21 21:41:03 @tomasino $459/month
2020-06-21 21:41:04 @tomasino yeesh
2020-06-21 21:41:25 @xq per seat?
2020-06-21 21:41:28 @tomasino yep
2020-06-21 21:41:30 @tomasino for commercial
2020-06-21 21:41:31 @xq neat :D
2020-06-21 21:41:38 @xq but yeah
2020-06-21 21:41:42 @xq you get a lot for that money
2020-06-21 21:41:58 @tomasino if you've got a commercial product on it and decent sales
2020-06-21 21:42:05 @tomasino i'm glad you can lgpl though
2020-06-21 21:42:52 @xq yep
2020-06-21 21:43:00 @xq i made some programs with Qt already
2020-06-21 21:43:04 @xq and it's a joy working with it
2020-06-21 21:43:09 @tomasino seems like it
2020-06-21 21:43:44 @tomasino i don't do any app dev stuff at all. just CLI things & web things & web-adjecent
2020-06-21 21:44:10 @tomasino i "have" done a few app things using web->native crap, but i hate the whole process
2020-06-21 21:44:19 @tomasino and like, electron, but that's just awful
2020-06-21 21:45:41 @xq yeah, it's horrible
2020-06-21 21:45:48 ⚡ styan wonders about plan9port for cross-platform stuff
2020-06-21 21:45:50 @xq Qt is big already :D
2020-06-21 21:45:53 @tomasino heh
2020-06-21 21:45:56 @xq plan9port?
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2020-06-21 21:46:29 styan Ports of plan9 software for many systems, acme, sam, troff, mk, etc.
2020-06-21 21:46:35 styan Including Windows.
2020-06-21 21:47:42 @xq oh neat
2020-06-21 21:47:43 yeti maybe even one step deeper: https://yeti.tilde.institute/brain/llvm.html maybe llvm can be the next better JVM
2020-06-21 21:47:49 @xq plan9 has some really nice ideas
2020-06-21 21:48:10 yeti binary compatible over several platforms
2020-06-21 21:48:20 @xq yeti: zig community also philosophers about LLVM byte code for crossplatform applications
2020-06-21 21:48:46 ⚡ yeti used UCSD decades ago and it was nice
2020-06-21 21:48:56 yeti slow but portability was more important
2020-06-21 21:49:28 yeti @university, @trs80, @c64 and @PCs I could run the same compilers
2020-06-21 21:49:44 yeti the UI was torture
2020-06-21 21:49:53 yeti but the rest was worth it
2020-06-21 21:50:34 @xq oh wow
2020-06-21 21:50:36 @xq crazy
2020-06-21 21:50:44 @xq also: 0.3 is released \o/
2020-06-21 21:50:45 yeti plan0 with a bearable UI (missing part!) on a VM might be todays answer
2020-06-21 21:50:50 yeti plan9
2020-06-21 21:50:57 Sario528 xq: Woo!
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2020-06-21 21:51:23 yeti mooooment... isnt that Inferno?
2020-06-21 21:52:46 styan I remember seeing a talk about hacking an Android phone to run Inferno instead of Java.
2020-06-21 21:53:10 yeti ucsd had compilers with native backends too
2020-06-21 21:53:32 yeti but in most cases portable binaries were more important than maximum speed
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2020-06-21 21:54:04 makeworld https://keepachangelog.com/en/1.0.0/
2020-06-21 21:54:10 yeti a pcode based OS today probably would do JIT translation to native code and that wouldnt even matter
2020-06-21 21:54:14 makeworld xq: Maybe Kristall should use that ^^
2020-06-21 21:54:33 makeworld I'm using it for Amfora, it's nice for organization and for when a user updates
2020-06-21 21:54:54 @xq makeworld: I have a change log ;)
2020-06-21 21:55:14 @xq it's built into kristall itself and it's the release notes
2020-06-21 21:55:22 @xq https://github.com/MasterQ32/kristall/releases/tag/V0.3
2020-06-21 21:55:23 @xq check this out
2020-06-21 21:56:07 makeworld Yeah, this is just a different way of doing it
2020-06-21 21:56:11 makeworld It's nice to have it all in one file
2020-06-21 21:56:28 makeworld You can add to file as you make commits, and then copy it over for the release
2020-06-21 21:56:30 @xq https://github.com/MasterQ32/kristall/blob/V0.3/src/about/updates.gemini
2020-06-21 21:56:37 makeworld It's also a different way of organising
2020-06-21 21:56:42 makeworld Oh nice
2020-06-21 21:56:52 @xq it's just not in the main folder as it's built INTO Kristall
2020-06-21 21:56:56 makeworld Can you view that in the app?
2020-06-21 21:56:59 makeworld Oh okay
2020-06-21 21:57:02 makeworld Cool
2020-06-21 21:57:05 @xq https://mq32.de/public/d9bc0e540d353781d0593d49723167da9bcfc467.png
2020-06-21 21:57:08 makeworld That works too :)
2020-06-21 21:57:22 @xq i just link it in the main README.md
2020-06-21 21:57:49 @xq the changelog is carefully hand-curated
2020-06-21 21:57:57 @xq i semi-refresh it while coding
2020-06-21 21:58:24 @xq and then i go through the whole git diff and add missing stuff or remove stuff that changes in the version itself
2020-06-21 21:58:56 @xq https://github.com/MasterQ32/kristall/compare/V0.2..V0.3
2020-06-21 21:59:00 @xq this is a hell of a diff though
2020-06-21 22:03:17 @xq okay, time for bed :)
2020-06-21 22:04:07 @xq was a successfull day
2020-06-21 22:04:16 @xq and the next release cycle of Kristall is going to be really fun :D
2020-06-21 22:11:53 makeworld :)
2020-06-21 22:11:55 makeworld Nice work!
2020-06-21 22:12:17 ⚡ xq is infinitly proud atm
2020-06-21 22:12:36 @xq it's my first project that has at least some usage outside of my computer
2020-06-21 22:12:53 @xq and i also really like keeping compatibility and portability high
2020-06-21 22:15:27 makeworld That's great! Gemini stuff has been the same for me mostly, first personal projects people use
2020-06-21 22:15:40 makeworld And you should be proud, Kristall has so many features
2020-06-21 22:16:06 @xq yeah, it's just …
2020-06-21 22:16:14 @xq the feeling of "clicking a gemini:// link and your own program comes up"
2020-06-21 22:16:17 @xq and it just works
2020-06-21 22:16:20 @xq and you can surf with it
2020-06-21 22:16:24 @xq it's a good feeling
2020-06-21 22:17:38 ▬▬▶ seisatsu has joined #gemini
2020-06-21 22:22:36 @xq okay, have go
2020-06-21 22:22:40 @xq until then
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2020-06-21 22:51:48 makeworld See ya!
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2020-06-21 23:19:38 CommunistWolf hey there. is there a list of server implementations somewhere? I found a lisp one, but it's a tricky sort of term to search for :S
2020-06-21 23:20:40 @tomasino just the list on the gemini.circumlunar.space page, i think
2020-06-21 23:20:43 @tomasino in the software section
2020-06-21 23:23:13 CommunistWolf ohh, is this going to be a thing where there's more info on the gemini page than the http one? ^^
2020-06-21 23:23:17 CommunistWolf sneaky
2020-06-21 23:24:24 @tomasino yep
2020-06-21 23:24:28 @tomasino hehe
2020-06-21 23:26:04 CommunistWolf it got me to compile asuka, so, mission accomplished I guess ;)
2020-06-21 23:26:51 CommunistWolf hmm. agate, gemserve, pollux, lots of rust options
2020-06-21 23:28:33 @tomasino kristall is Qt
2020-06-21 23:28:38 @tomasino bollux is bash
2020-06-21 23:28:41 @tomasino oh wait, servers
2020-06-21 23:28:43 @tomasino sorry, not clients
2020-06-21 23:28:46 @tomasino jetforce is python3
2020-06-21 23:29:36 CommunistWolf servers, yeah. I'm going through a rust-y phase at the moment so focusing on those
2020-06-21 23:30:11 CommunistWolf agate uses rustls, that's a win
2020-06-21 23:30:30 CommunistWolf > downloads 100 dependencies
2020-06-21 23:38:05 xfnw has quit (The TLS connection was non-properly terminated.)
2020-06-21 23:38:06 makeworld Lol
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2020-06-21 23:38:59 CommunistWolf ooh, I've tickled a bug I can fix, that's nice
2020-06-21 23:52:17 makeworld Did mozz's cert change?
2020-06-21 23:53:40 makeworld Looks like it did, unless I've been MITM'd lol
2020-06-21 23:57:27 yeti I dont remember a cert change within the last week or so
2020-06-21 23:58:02 yeti or what do you mean by mozz?
2020-06-21 23:58:11 yeti the gemini->html gate?
2020-06-21 23:59:55 makeworld I mean his website, mozz.us
2020-06-22 00:00:06 makeworld It changed according to my client
2020-06-22 00:00:22 makeworld gemini://mozz.us, that is
2020-06-22 00:01:04 yeti I only used the gateway
2020-06-22 00:01:13 makeworld Ah ok
2020-06-22 00:02:00 yeti Timestamp : Jun 21 03:09:35.781 2020 GMT
2020-06-22 00:02:15 makeworld ?
2020-06-22 00:02:37 yeti I think gemini://mozz.us indeed has a new cert since sunday
2020-06-22 00:02:53 yeti https://portal.mozz.us/gemini/mozz.us/?crt=1
2020-06-22 00:05:11 CommunistWolf hmm, I'm defaulting to using my existing lets-encrypt cert. that's going to be annoying for TOFU, isn't it?
2020-06-22 00:05:19 makeworld Not really
2020-06-22 00:05:33 makeworld Lots of people do that
2020-06-22 00:05:44 makeworld I mean, it will expire, but TOFU is designed to be okay with that
2020-06-22 00:05:49 CommunistWolf gemini://ur.gs anyway , although it might be ipv6-only at the moment
2020-06-22 00:05:59 makeworld We're just still working out the bugs, and the best way to handle expiry and key changes
2020-06-22 00:06:01 CommunistWolf I guess that's not a terrible thing
2020-06-22 00:06:13 makeworld I get connection refused on ur.gs
2020-06-22 00:06:25 makeworld On IPv4
2020-06-22 00:07:22 CommunistWolf hmm, I can tell it to bind to the wildcard
2020-06-22 00:08:40 CommunistWolf but then I seem to get weird ssl errors on ipv4 only *shrug*
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2020-06-22 00:38:28 makeworld Alright, Amfora now has an option to "continue anyway" for TOFU
2020-06-22 00:39:01 makeworld I'm worried I made it too easy, but I expect Amfora users to be somewhat knowledgeable, and I know that TOFU isn't perfect
2020-06-22 00:41:26 makeworld Next on the roadmap is bookmarks, which will be nic
2020-06-22 00:41:29 makeworld *nice
2020-06-22 01:28:28 krixano xq, I have a feature request for Kristall - the ability to middle click a tab to close it.
2020-06-22 01:28:51 krixano Also, middle clicking links to open them in new tab
2020-06-22 01:29:38 @tomasino ++
2020-06-22 01:40:56 krixano solderpunk: Ok, so with the new streaming stuff going on, I feel like there should be a way to tell the client whether it needs to keep the connection open to stream or not. Because some clients might currently have a timeout (and might want a timeout for non-stream connections)
2020-06-22 01:42:33 @tomasino i agree, but i don't think solderpunk is here right now
2020-06-22 01:50:58 makeworld Yeah he's not online
2020-06-22 01:51:07 makeworld And yes I agree
2020-06-22 01:51:19 makeworld The problem is this is just more protocol extension
2020-06-22 01:53:53 @tomasino yep
2020-06-22 01:53:56 @tomasino also true
2020-06-22 02:00:32 krixano Could it be done with status codes?
2020-06-22 02:00:40 krixano Like, another 2x status code
2020-06-22 02:00:56 @tomasino oh, yes... yes it could
2020-06-22 02:01:01 @tomasino success as stream
2020-06-22 02:01:15 @tomasino that would be really really easy
2020-06-22 02:25:20 krixano Streaming idea I just thought of: Asciinemia streams over Gemini
2020-06-22 02:25:38 krixano * Asciinema
2020-06-22 02:29:49 coleman server-> client streaming seems fine. I think clients can decide to implement their own framing protocol for stuff like asciinema
2020-06-22 02:30:28 coleman does gemini need to have an opinion on this at the protocol level?
2020-06-22 02:37:46 krixano Idk what framing protocol mean, but what I meant was just viewing an asciinema stream from gemini. Of course, sending the stream to the server to then be served over gemini would be a different thing.
2020-06-22 02:40:05 krixano Also, this can already be done with gemini. The only thing that I would add to the protocol is a simple "success as stream" status code.
2020-06-22 02:40:39 coleman You're right, it can already be done
2020-06-22 02:40:49 krixano Yeah, it can... sorta
2020-06-22 02:40:57 coleman As long as the client knows how to render what is returned
2020-06-22 02:41:02 krixano It depends on if the client has a timeout or not
2020-06-22 02:41:19 krixano Having an extra status code tell the client it shouldn't be timing out.
2020-06-22 02:42:39 krixano (for example, kristall currently doesn't work with the new streaming stuff at chat.mozz.us)
2020-06-22 02:42:49 krixano (... because of the timeout thing it has)
2020-06-22 02:59:09 makeworld A new status code is perfect!
2020-06-22 02:59:29 makeworld I'll make a post on mailing list if no one else does
2020-06-22 03:00:29 makeworld In a bit, though
2020-06-22 03:32:44 makeworld Oh huh, I just noticed status code 21 is gone
2020-06-22 03:34:18 makeworld Okay, sent the post
2020-06-22 03:48:05 makeworld Did I just break GUS?
2020-06-22 03:48:11 makeworld Yikes
2020-06-22 03:49:59 makeworld I made a request with two AND NOTs
2020-06-22 03:53:08 kayw ...what
2020-06-22 03:53:46 makeworld Nvm, it's back
2020-06-22 03:53:55 makeworld But the server timed out for a bit
2020-06-22 03:54:44 makeworld Ok, see y'all later!
2020-06-22 04:15:26 krixano I don't see makeworld's mailing list email.
2020-06-22 04:24:29 coleman has quit (The TLS connection was non-properly terminated.)
2020-06-22 04:25:31 makeworld krixano: https://lists.orbitalfox.eu/archives/gemini/2020/001830.html
2020-06-22 04:25:38 makeworld Night
2020-06-22 04:25:46 krixano Goodnight!
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2020-06-22 07:33:50 @xq <krixano> (for example, kristall currently doesn't work with the new streaming stuff at chat.mozz.us)
2020-06-22 07:33:50 @xq <krixano> (... because of the timeout thing it has)
2020-06-22 07:34:01 @xq yes, Kristall can't handle streams atm, but that's not because of the timeout
2020-06-22 07:34:23 @xq it's because it gathers the whole document, then displays it, as i've tried to explain to you before ;)
2020-06-22 07:34:31 krixano Well.. it kinda is. You have a timeout if nothing has been sent for a while.
2020-06-22 07:34:36 @xq yes
2020-06-22 07:34:39 @xq but a stream is continous
2020-06-22 07:34:55 @xq but as long as the data stream does not end, kristall does not display the resource to you
2020-06-22 07:35:12 krixano A stream must be continuout?
2020-06-22 07:35:36 krixano (as in, not stopping for periods of time)
2020-06-22 07:35:45 @xq Kristall does not now the concept of "live stream"
2020-06-22 07:36:16 @xq it receives a data stream from the server and and stores the data payload of that stream. when the server closes the connection, Kristall will display the resource to you
2020-06-22 07:36:29 krixano Yeah, I already know thsat
2020-06-22 07:36:38 krixano That's definitely a problem
2020-06-22 07:36:57 krixano However, I was talking about what you were saying about continuous streams
2020-06-22 07:37:59 @xq well, the timeout thing is something completly different and i will apply that also on streams
2020-06-22 07:38:12 @xq because it's reasonable to assume the server stopped stream after a certain amount of "no bytes received"
2020-06-22 07:38:57 krixano I disagree
2020-06-22 07:39:11 krixano What about chat's where nobody's said anything for a long time?
2020-06-22 07:39:14 @xq that's okay ;)
2020-06-22 07:39:41 @xq i have those in mind and i make the stream timeouting thing configurable as soon as i have the option to differentiate streams and file data
2020-06-22 07:39:53 krixano Ok, fine
2020-06-22 07:40:36 @xq implementing a data stream is sadly not that easy in kristall
2020-06-22 07:41:38 krixano Solderpunk's on a break till 25th I think, so we won't have any decisions about the "success as stream" status code I proposed until after then
2020-06-22 07:42:15 @xq yeah
2020-06-22 07:42:46 @xq next release cycle will be focused on "nice look&feel", no new technical advancements
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2020-06-22 07:47:12 snoe Hey in my flutter client, I'm a fair bit removed from sockets, but I'm running into three types of behaviors on different servers. 1. as per protocol, I send the request uri followed by crlf and get back a response, then the connection closes. 2
2020-06-22 07:48:00 snoe 2. I send the request, get back the response, but the connection does not close - UNLESS I shutdown the write side of the socket.
2020-06-22 07:48:33 snoe 3. send the request, get the response, but the connection never closes and I need to timeout.
2020-06-22 07:49:22 @xq snoe: those servers seem to close only the TLS connection, not the socket itself
2020-06-22 07:50:42 snoe examples: 1. gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/ 2. gemini://gus.guru/ 3.gemini://tilde.black
2020-06-22 07:52:07 snoe @xq interesting - I 'm not sure I can detect that. Do you think that's the case for 2 and 3?
2020-06-22 08:10:22 @xq yeah
2020-06-22 08:10:33 @xq i could detect it when i also listened to the TLS connection breakdown
2020-06-22 08:12:12 snoe darn, I can't find anywhere in dart to poke at that :( are those servers out of spec?
2020-06-22 08:13:44 @xq not sure
2020-06-22 08:15:08 snoe yeah... other than the handshake section, and the bit about the gopher `.` it doesn't say a server MUST close the connection.
2020-06-22 08:15:48 snoe and whether it means socket or tls layer is unclear
2020-06-22 08:15:48 @xq gemini implies that the server needs to close the connection
2020-06-22 08:15:53 @xq that's "end of file" condition
2020-06-22 08:16:22 @xq huh… i just had the wildest idea :D
2020-06-22 08:16:30 snoe yeah, that's what I've been assuming.
2020-06-22 08:16:33 @xq it's not a hard feature, but a useful one for Kristall
2020-06-22 08:16:38 @xq Offline Pages
2020-06-22 08:16:48 @xq So, caching, but opt-in and hand-made
2020-06-22 08:17:00 @xq allows you to store stuff "for later, without internet"
2020-06-22 08:17:36 krixano That's a good feature.
2020-06-22 08:17:41 snoe safari has a reading list, it would be nice
2020-06-22 08:17:43 krixano Browsers *used* to have that feature
2020-06-22 08:17:56 @xq yeah
2020-06-22 08:17:58 krixano But I don't think many of them do anymore
2020-06-22 08:18:16 @xq i just noticed that i should not use my mobile connection to download the spec again and again
2020-06-22 08:18:44 snoe thanks for your help xq.
2020-06-22 08:18:53 @xq you're welcome
2020-06-22 08:19:09 @xq yay, Kristall is finally up-to-spec again *grin*
2020-06-22 08:19:24 @xq solderpunk has merged the new certificate response codes
2020-06-22 08:20:01 @xq snoe: 1.1 says, that in order to handle a connection, you need to wait for "connection close"
2020-06-22 08:20:08 @xq and then handle the response
2020-06-22 08:23:07 @xq so streaming is technically out-of-spec :D
2020-06-22 08:43:45 paper xq: there was a proposal about something like sitemap which lists all files on the server with their dates of modification and sizes, maybe it could be helpful for offline pages
2020-06-22 08:48:58 krixano Streaming isn't technically out of spec if eventually the stream ends, right?
2020-06-22 08:50:33 @xq well, it depends
2020-06-22 08:50:43 @xq if you do a live radio, the stream never ends
2020-06-22 08:50:50 @xq unless technical problems
2020-06-22 08:50:56 styan Heat-death based connection termination?
2020-06-22 08:51:01 @xq :D
2020-06-22 08:51:09 @xq also, the spec says that you should read the content, then display it :D
2020-06-22 08:51:15 ⚡ xq is -pedantic
2020-06-22 08:51:40 styan If it just says "read" it does not say how much. :-)
2020-06-22 08:52:33 @xq well, read is "until server closes connection"
2020-06-22 08:52:44 krixano Yeah, but we can fix up and change the spec if solderpunk decides on allowing streaming
2020-06-22 08:52:52 @xq yeah, sure :D
2020-06-22 08:53:27 @xq i still have no idea though how to solve streaming in a nice way for Kristall
2020-06-22 08:54:02 krixano Actually, solderpunk is the one that came up with the streamed chat idea, so I would bet that he would allow it
2020-06-22 08:54:53 styan I do not remember if you were online yesterday when I was talking about my very streamy new gemini fetcher.
2020-06-22 08:55:35 @xq :D
2020-06-22 08:55:45 @xq streaming was afaik actually tomasinos idea here
2020-06-22 08:55:59 @xq and both me and solderpunk hoppend on the train quickly
2020-06-22 08:56:12 krixano Yes, *streaming* was tomasino's idea. But solderpunk came up with streaming *chatroom* in his gemini applications post
2020-06-22 08:56:45 krixano The exact same implementation used by chat.mozz.us it seems
2020-06-22 08:57:08 styan I made a thing that pipes the response to a program selected by the returned mime-type, now I have html pages opening in lynx :-)
2020-06-22 08:57:10 ⚡ krixano is also pedantic
2020-06-22 08:57:15 krixano :D
2020-06-22 08:58:04 @xq krixano: not sure who came up with the chat idea anymore, it originated in the IRC here as well, pretty sure :D
2020-06-22 08:58:25 @xq also, i have to test out chat.mozz.us
2020-06-22 08:58:29 krixano Well, idk then, lol. The first one who I seen mentioning it was solderpunk
2020-06-22 08:59:46 @xq also isn't really relevant :D
2020-06-22 09:00:17 @xq i have to patch up Kristall to allow streaming as i love the idea
2020-06-22 09:00:35 krixano You're right, it's not. I wasn't the one that brought up my mistake though
2020-06-22 09:00:55 styan I had a silly idea about having a program that opens gemini links with my gemini-pipe(1), which opens gemini files in that program, creating a chaing of processes that are essentially your back button...
2020-06-22 09:02:10 krixano The point... solderpunk seems to have supported the streaming chatroom idea in his gemini applications post, which means that he it would make sense if he supports changes to the spec to clear up this being allowed.
2020-06-22 09:07:35 @xq yeah
2020-06-22 09:09:42 styan I find the fact that the status code sub-sub-sections have the same number as the status code they are describing more amusing than I probably should.
2020-06-22 09:12:20 ⚡ kensanata rereads https://www.sitemaps.org/protocol.html after many years of ignoring it.
2020-06-22 09:12:31 kensanata styan: hehe
2020-06-22 09:18:29 paper maybe an unpopular opinon, but I think streaming isn't a good idea, we should think more about some problems with the existing gemini protocol. For example I think it would be awesome if the protocol supported specifying the language.
2020-06-22 09:19:14 paper The web chooses a language currently based on cookies, manual preference or geoIP which is bad and usually not great.
2020-06-22 09:19:17 @xq i don't think the protocol itself should specify the language
2020-06-22 09:19:22 @xq this is covered via mime types
2020-06-22 09:19:38 @xq but: "what language does a compressed zip file have?"
2020-06-22 09:19:42 paper language via mime types? that's news to me
2020-06-22 09:19:57 @xq 20 text/gemini; lang=de
2020-06-22 09:20:14 @xq would be a response for a german, utf-8 typed gemini file
2020-06-22 09:20:52 @xq see specification.gmi 5.2 Parameters
2020-06-22 09:20:58 paper I was that a request could specify a language they want and the server would return it or the fallback language - for multilang
2020-06-22 09:21:12 @xq ah, this way
2020-06-22 09:21:22 @xq i don't think that's a good idea
2020-06-22 09:21:23 paper sites, but I don't see a way to implement it well
2020-06-22 09:21:29 @xq it's also covered already ;)
2020-06-22 09:21:47 styan I have not heard of `etc/mailcap', and I do not think that I have ever seen MIME expanded before. I am learning new things reading this spec. :-)
2020-06-22 09:21:48 @xq gemini://host.name/de/ vs gemini://host.name/es/ gemini://host.name/en/
2020-06-22 09:22:19 paper xq: is this standard?
2020-06-22 09:22:27 @xq it's common
2020-06-22 09:22:36 @xq a lot of web pages do this and it's totally viable for gemini as well
2020-06-22 09:22:38 paper hmm, I guess this is much better
2020-06-22 09:22:52 @xq it's simple, it's obvious and it does not need protocol changes ):
2020-06-22 09:28:13 paper there has to be a better way, maybe you live in an english speaking country, but I find it really weird when sites default to Turkmen, because our ISP has a Turkmenistan IP for some reason.
2020-06-22 09:29:17 krixano The only other way would be clients adding the language to the request in some way
2020-06-22 09:29:43 CommunistWolf I was thinking about streams a little last night because of toot radio - the ultimate stream
2020-06-22 09:29:49 paper and that would change the request formattoo much
2020-06-22 09:30:23 styan Magic fragment? `gemini://some.thing/path/#en'
2020-06-22 09:30:24 krixano I mean, technically we could just have clients automatically use "domain/language/..." as the url.
2020-06-22 09:30:56 krixano The only problem with that is everybody has to standardize on that url format
2020-06-22 09:31:26 krixano (unless, perhaps, there's a way to detect that the url doesn't exist, and to go back to the url without the "/language" part)
2020-06-22 09:31:35 paper I like that, but can we get us to break every existing gemini link?
2020-06-22 09:32:04 paper krixano: that would be a legacy workaround, I don't like it :(
2020-06-22 09:36:58 kensanata I think there is no solution to this on the Gemini protocol level.
2020-06-22 09:37:04 krixano > and I do not think that I have ever seen MIME expanded before.
2020-06-22 09:37:19 kensanata The HTTP protocol solves this, but Solderpunk really doesn't want that kind of extensibility.
2020-06-22 09:37:21 krixano I think the lang thing was actually in an rfc before, so it's not a new thing
2020-06-22 09:37:24 styan MIME: Multipurpose Internet Mail Extensions
2020-06-22 09:38:02 krixano Oh, did you mean expanded as in... the words the acronym represents?
2020-06-22 09:38:09 styan Yes.
2020-06-22 09:38:31 styan I think that I have only ever seen it as MIME.
2020-06-22 09:38:58 kensanata What we could do is use parameters. In an URL, every segment can have parameters. So you could say: gemini://alexschroeder.ch/Test;lang=de to request that "Test" be delivered with "lang=de" in mind. All we would have to agree to is to use "lang" as the parameter name.
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2020-06-22 09:39:53 kensanata And I already use these for Titan. titan://alexschroeder.ch/Test;size=5;mime=text/plain;token=hello allows me to write five bytes to the Test page.
2020-06-22 09:40:39 krixano I thought we were using "?" for this? or is this a different thing?
2020-06-22 09:41:03 kensanata https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3986#section-3.3
2020-06-22 09:41:28 kensanata krixano: the ? says that you want to append query parameters. Without a question mark, it's just parameters
2020-06-22 09:41:59 krixano Oh. Do all gemini servers handle this correctly atm?
2020-06-22 09:41:59 kensanata From the RFC: «For example, one URI producer might use a segment such as "name;v=1.1" to indicate a reference to version 1.1 of "name", whereas another might use a segment such as "name,1.1" to indicate the same.»
2020-06-22 09:42:15 kensanata krixano: It's not in the Gemini spec anywhere.
2020-06-22 09:42:34 kensanata krixano: But URIs could be used this way without breaking the spec.
2020-06-22 09:43:06 krixano But if we're going to have clients automatically append a ";lang=..." thing, then we have to make sure the server supports that, right?
2020-06-22 09:43:28 kensanata Sure. In theory, a conforming server that parses URIs correctly will already do so.
2020-06-22 09:43:45 kensanata One "correct" response, of course, would be that "Test;lang=de" is not available.
2020-06-22 09:44:28 kensanata And indeed, my site will simply give you an empty page, because it doesn't exist.
2020-06-22 09:44:36 kensanata Eventhough Test exists...
2020-06-22 09:45:27 krixano So, I find this interesting, because from what I've seen, most of the web uses query parameters for things that should probably use regular parameters. Like, I've never seen semicolon-delemited parameters in URLs before I don't think
2020-06-22 09:45:58 kensanata Me neither. I think it was Sean who pointed me at this part of the URI RFC.
2020-06-22 09:46:41 styan I think that I accidentally reinvented mailcap(4) when I made gemini-pipe(1)...
2020-06-22 09:47:09 krixano Who cares, the wheel was "reinvented" multiple times.
2020-06-22 09:47:10 kensanata I think the idea was that you want to provide meta info for every path segment, so gemini://campaignwiki.org/wiki;region=europe/Dragons_of_Doom;lang=fr would be a possibility.
2020-06-22 09:47:21 kensanata styan: haha
2020-06-22 09:47:36 kensanata styan: I bet mailcap also has a bout two dozen extra features nobody knows about.
2020-06-22 09:47:49 styan I do not actually care, but I thought that it was amusing. :-)
2020-06-22 09:47:50 krixano (I mean to say, like, don't be afraid to "reinvent the whell")
2020-06-22 09:48:01 krixano * wheel
2020-06-22 09:48:03 kensanata styan: like different options for different verbs one might apply to a resource, and a default action, just to name two things I half remember.
2020-06-22 09:48:04 krixano :)
2020-06-22 09:48:41 kensanata Time to get some lunch going over here... happy IRC to all y'alls.
2020-06-22 09:48:56 styan I still like my version more, it is mk(1) inspired :-)
2020-06-22 09:55:29 jan6 paper: incorrect, there are http headers for that, the browser tells the server what languages it accepts, and server tries to find appropriate version, in the order specified by client, https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTTP/Headers/Accept-Language
2020-06-22 09:55:44 jan6 if the people making pages are lazy, doesn't mean that's how it has to be ;P
2020-06-22 09:58:46 styan I think that it would be fun if a site had a /en, /de, /fr, etc. And someone went to /page instead of /en/page, that it would run a CGI script that pickes a random translation for each line.
2020-06-22 09:59:18 styan s/pickes/picks/
2020-06-22 09:59:57 jan6 yeah, the /lang/ directories are pretty standard, I think, in the sense that everyone gets what they are, and are easy to set up
2020-06-22 09:59:59 krixano What was paper incorrect about?
2020-06-22 10:00:09 jan6 the http language selection part
2020-06-22 10:00:28 jan6 no need to cookies, or geoip
2020-06-22 10:00:55 ⚡ jan6 eats all the cookies
2020-06-22 10:00:55 krixano Ah, ok
2020-06-22 10:01:17 jan6 the semicolon url params are weird, I've not seen them either, which is interesting
2020-06-22 10:01:33 jan6 only place I've seen them used is the data: uri
2020-06-22 10:01:51 krixano Yeah, query parameters do almost the same thing, so I would bet everyone just started using those instead
2020-06-22 10:02:21 jan6 interesting is that it seems pretty much a forgotten feature
2020-06-22 10:02:40 jan6 wouldn't be surprised if several uri parsers didn't bother to implement it
2020-06-22 10:03:18 krixano Like, I see google using query parameters for things that aren't necessarily queries. Like I've seen google use them for versioning for example.
2020-06-22 10:03:34 jan6 yeah
2020-06-22 10:03:36 jan6 hmmm
2020-06-22 10:03:40 jan6 could you use both at the same time?
2020-06-22 10:04:21 krixano I would think so, but idk. I was actually wondering about what the correct order would be, if it's not fluid ordering. Would query params always go after regular params?
2020-06-22 10:04:35 jan6 like gemini://my.site/cool_page;revision=1.0?format=markdown
2020-06-22 10:05:17 styan The grammer at the end does not even mention thoes, it just allows semicolons in the path, query, and fragment as a "sub-delim".
2020-06-22 10:05:25 styan s/thoes/those
2020-06-22 10:05:28 jan6 huh
2020-06-22 10:05:42 jan6 now that is a bit interesting
2020-06-22 10:06:07 styan So if you just code to the grammer, it would just be part of the part.
2020-06-22 10:06:10 @xq <kensanata> krixano: the ? says that you want to append query parameters. Without a question mark, it's just parameters
2020-06-22 10:06:28 jan6 as that would also let make stuff like an extra spec of using fragment sections as "highlight this area" or "focus on 3th line of section 2"
2020-06-22 10:06:36 styan s/part\./path./
2020-06-22 10:06:36 @xq that's not technically true. `gemini://host.name/foo;lang=de` is a URL with a path of `foo;lang=de`
2020-06-22 10:06:50 styan I am just made of typos right now.
2020-06-22 10:06:59 krixano That's confusing me now....
2020-06-22 10:07:16 jan6 lots of specs can be confusing ;P
2020-06-22 10:07:38 @xq krixano: path of a url starts after either the : or the /, depending oon your use of host name or not
2020-06-22 10:07:46 @xq if you use a host name, all paths must be absolute (starting with a /)
2020-06-22 10:07:47 krixano According to this rfc linked, ";" and "=" are reserved characters used to delimit parameters and parameter values
2020-06-22 10:07:57 @xq krixano: correct, but only in query values
2020-06-22 10:08:42 krixano It does not specify that requirement in the rfc I don't think...
2020-06-22 10:09:16 @xq it does
2020-06-22 10:09:19 styan We need something for URLs, what Gemini is to HTML. :-)
2020-06-22 10:09:30 krixano > URI producing applications
2020-06-22 10:09:30 krixano often use the reserved characters allowed in a segment to delimit
2020-06-22 10:09:30 krixano scheme-specific or dereference-handler-specific subcomponents. For
2020-06-22 10:09:30 krixano example, the semicolon (";") and equals ("=") reserved characters are
2020-06-22 10:09:30 krixano often used to delimit parameters and parameter values applicable to
2020-06-22 10:09:31 krixano that segment.
2020-06-22 10:09:33 @xq https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3986#appendix-A
2020-06-22 10:10:31 @xq or maybe i'm reading it wrong
2020-06-22 10:10:56 @xq but i assume that solderpunk will define the URL scheme for gemini to not allow parameters on path segments
2020-06-22 10:12:19 jan6 interesting I've never seen protocol:/ format, with a single slash
2020-06-22 10:12:39 @xq you did!
2020-06-22 10:12:43 @xq file:/foo/bar
2020-06-22 10:12:55 paper I am back
2020-06-22 10:13:00 paper jan6, you are right
2020-06-22 10:13:14 @xq but file:/ is afaik equivalent to using an empty host
2020-06-22 10:13:18 @xq file:///foo/bar
2020-06-22 10:13:22 @xq which is even more confusing
2020-06-22 10:13:26 jan6 it's always used as file:/// fro what I've seen
2020-06-22 10:13:47 jan6 I guess file:/relative/path would make sense, but never seen it used
2020-06-22 10:13:55 krixano Ok, so it looks like it's saying ";" are reserved for segments, they're in the sub-delims part. But I don't think this means "blah;ksahdfkh" is a directory. I guess I just realized I misread what you meant by "path" though
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2020-06-22 10:14:22 jan6 firefox only seems to accept file:/// with three slashes and no less, for example
2020-06-22 10:14:32 paper it has to be file://, right? else it is not recognised as a protocol
2020-06-22 10:14:48 krixano I believe that third slash is for root directory
2020-06-22 10:14:48 @xq nah, you can also use doi:34324 or mailto:felix@
2020-06-22 10:14:54 paper I find it amusing that the last slash is for root
2020-06-22 10:14:57 @xq the third slash is actually root
2020-06-22 10:15:00 jan6 file is the protocol, // means it's absolute path
2020-06-22 10:15:07 @xq file://C:/foo/bar
2020-06-22 10:15:31 paper no, // seaparates the protocol - like https://xxx or gemini://xxx
2020-06-22 10:15:38 paper the last slash is a path
2020-06-22 10:16:20 paper mailto seems to be a different format?
2020-06-22 10:16:33 @xq nah, it's all URI
2020-06-22 10:16:42 @xq [scheme=gemini]://[authority][path=/path]
2020-06-22 10:16:45 krixano Idk, I always found mailto a bit weird, because it's different from literally every other url I've seen
2020-06-22 10:16:54 krixano Since it doesn't have slashes after scheme
2020-06-22 10:16:55 @xq [scheme=mailto]:[path=felix@adiasd]
2020-06-22 10:17:02 jan6 : is the protocol separator, paper
2020-06-22 10:17:09 @xq [scheme=file]://[authority=][path=/foo/bar]
2020-06-22 10:17:17 krixano What are the two slashes for then?
2020-06-22 10:17:23 @xq the double slashes introduce authority
2020-06-22 10:17:29 @xq (so user,host,port)
2020-06-22 10:17:42 jan6 I didn't know it either before looking at that spec, what the // meant
2020-06-22 10:18:01 @xq scheme ":" hier-part [ "?" query ] [ "#" fragment ]
2020-06-22 10:18:16 krixano And authority is different from what you link to with mailto?
2020-06-22 10:18:21 @xq where hier-part is either [ "//" authority path-abempty ] or any other kind of path
2020-06-22 10:18:30 @xq mailto contains only a path
2020-06-22 10:18:30 paper wow, I thought the URI spec was nice and simple, but it seems complex and different in each case
2020-06-22 10:18:38 jan6 interesting is that the hier-part itself doesn't seem to include the rest of the URL, so it's a weird way to put it
2020-06-22 10:18:42 @xq URI spec is quite reasonable actually
2020-06-22 10:18:57 krixano I thought emails were just user@authority?
2020-06-22 10:19:02 jan6 like, what, http://?query#fragment would be legal?
2020-06-22 10:19:02 @xq that's an email
2020-06-22 10:19:09 @xq a URI for email is "mailto:user@authority"
2020-06-22 10:19:13 @xq where "user@authority" IS the path
2020-06-22 10:19:20 @xq and "mailto:" is the scheme
2020-06-22 10:19:29 krixano Ok, but if it's using an authority, then why isn't there the two slashes
2020-06-22 10:19:41 @xq it's nt...
2020-06-22 10:19:50 krixano You can also use the user@ for things that use two slashes, like ftp
2020-06-22 10:19:54 @xq yeah
2020-06-22 10:20:03 @xq that's the authority user spec
2020-06-22 10:20:15 jan6 you can also use it for http
2020-06-22 10:20:30 krixano So wait....
2020-06-22 10:20:30 jan6 you can do http://user:password@website.com
2020-06-22 10:20:40 jan6 and it's totally fine
2020-06-22 10:21:20 krixano What you're saying is, with mailto, the full email is a path, but with something like ftp, the user isn't with the path exactly, it's more like the which user is doing the request? idk, lol...
2020-06-22 10:21:50 jan6 pretty sure you can still ftp with user in the url
2020-06-22 10:22:06 jan6 it's just not required for the user to be included
2020-06-22 10:22:16 jan6 but since it's needed, it'd be prompted if missing
2020-06-22 10:22:18 krixano I didn't say you couldn't?
2020-06-22 10:22:32 login you can use basic auth over https ;)
2020-06-22 10:22:59 krixano Am I missing something here? Why do people keep repeating things I already know
2020-06-22 10:23:16 login i didn't read
2020-06-22 10:24:12 jan6 maybe you word them in a way that's understood by the people as if you were asking something you already know?
2020-06-22 10:24:34 login here, "the people" is only a sample size of 1 or maybe 2
2020-06-22 10:24:39 login so it could just be the crowd
2020-06-22 10:24:42 login (of 2)
2020-06-22 10:25:07 krixano I have no idea how you thought I was asking about http users, because I don't even mention that, lmao
2020-06-22 10:25:46 login i only saw http://user:password@website.com
2020-06-22 10:25:52 jan6 nobody thought that, I don't think, lol
2020-06-22 10:26:12 jan6 I was just putting an example that it's not mail-specific
2020-06-22 10:26:31 krixano I didn't suggest it was mail-specific though
2020-06-22 10:27:21 jan6 yeah
2020-06-22 10:27:26 jan6 miscommunication
2020-06-22 10:27:50 krixano Let me further clarify, with mailto, you're sending *to* the user provided.... the user is part of the email/path. Therefore no double slashes. But with url's, there's a double slash because the user is not part of the path, it's just used to specify who is doing the request. What I was asking is if this is correct.
2020-06-22 10:30:24 krixano So... "mailto:user@domain" - user@domain is the path, but "ftp://user@domain" - user is authentication, not part of path. xq, is this right or wrong?
2020-06-22 10:33:08 jan6 I guess treating it as authentication or not isn't part of url, it's probably just how that protocol treats it...
2020-06-22 10:34:41 krixano I'm now wondering about "file:" vs. "file://" though, because if double slash is supposed to be for authorities, "file://" doesn't use an authority, does it?
2020-06-22 10:36:59 jan6 maybe it'd be local system authority?
2020-06-22 10:37:18 styan I think that (pedantically) it is only valid as `file:relative/path//components' and `file:/absolute/path//components'
2020-06-22 10:37:18 krixano Btw, I was confused about you mentioning to me that user can be used with ftp, because I literally say the exact same thing before you said that.
2020-06-22 10:37:20 jan6 or there's some forgotten spec everyone's forgotten
2020-06-22 10:39:52 styan Nope, nevermind, hostnames can be empty. s/.*//
2020-06-22 10:40:40 krixano Yep. Just tried doing "file://localhost/"
2020-06-22 10:40:54 krixano It worked, but redirected/changed url to "file:///"
2020-06-22 10:42:00 ⚡ styan wants `9p://host.name/file' now
2020-06-22 10:42:14 krixano rfc 8089 defines file URI scheme btw
2020-06-22 10:43:16 krixano the file URI is of the form "file://host/path"
2020-06-22 10:44:09 krixano Which means it can be used for network locations...
2020-06-22 10:45:44 krixano The wiki on it says "no specific file-retrieval protocol is specified"
2020-06-22 10:46:20 jan6 heh
2020-06-22 10:46:52 jan6 gemini-based file transfers and file managers when? ;P
2020-06-22 10:49:36 krixano rfc 8089 is fairly new, from 2017
2020-06-22 10:50:08 styan jan6: gemini-ls() { gemini-cat "$@" | awk '!f&&/^=>/{print$1}/^```/{f=!f}'; }''
2020-06-22 10:51:20 krixano xq, feature request... the ability to search gus more quickly... either from some shortcut/menu item/button, or from address textbox
2020-06-22 10:51:27 jan6 I notice nested ' which wouldn't work, lol
2020-06-22 10:51:32 jan6 or no
2020-06-22 10:51:37 jan6 it' just a '' at the end for no reason
2020-06-22 10:51:54 styan Oh, I thought I did the double-backtick quote.
2020-06-22 10:52:01 styan I guess that I deleted those.
2020-06-22 10:52:13 jan6 even if they weren't quotes, they were only at the very end
2020-06-22 10:52:14 jan6 lol
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2020-06-22 11:12:42 krixano Btw, the hostname, and in fact the whole authority (including port and userinfo), is not part of the path.
2020-06-22 11:21:57 kensanata With Gemini and Titan we already have file transfers...
2020-06-22 11:22:41 @xq <krixano> So... "mailto:user@domain" - user@domain is the path, but "ftp://user@domain" - user is authentication, not part of path. xq, is this right or wrong?
2020-06-22 11:22:43 @xq yes, this is correct!
2020-06-22 11:22:56 @xq <krixano> xq, feature request... the ability to search gus more quickly... either from some shortcut/menu item/button, or from address textbox
2020-06-22 11:23:01 @xq this is kinda planned
2020-06-22 11:23:02 krixano Ok, I understand now. Thanks!
2020-06-22 11:23:16 @xq it's a bit confusing, but "path" does not mean a file system path in the case of URI
2020-06-22 11:25:19 krixano I wonder, does that mean it's technically possible to specify an authority for mailto, at least if it's implemented and what that does is defined?
2020-06-22 11:25:31 @xq yes :D
2020-06-22 11:25:36 krixano Like: "mailto://mailserver/user@domain"?
2020-06-22 11:25:36 @xq well, probably not
2020-06-22 11:25:49 @xq because it's forbidden in the mailto RFC for sure
2020-06-22 11:25:56 krixano Ah, ok
2020-06-22 11:26:01 @xq and: mailto:name@host is a relative path, but /mail@host is absolute
2020-06-22 11:26:10 krixano Ah, right
2020-06-22 11:26:22 krixano Can you do relative paths with authorities?
2020-06-22 11:26:47 krixano I don't know how you would even do that...
2020-06-22 11:26:47 @xq no
2020-06-22 11:26:53 @xq you can only do empty or absolute path
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2020-06-22 12:59:21 CommunistWolf heh, rss for agate is about 1/5th the RSS for caddy
2020-06-22 12:59:49 CommunistWolf wonder why it needs a 300MiB VSZ
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2020-06-22 13:07:33 ⚡ tiwesdaeg waves
2020-06-22 13:16:40 @xq heyhoh
2020-06-22 13:17:44 dkibi heyo everyone
2020-06-22 13:32:05 @tomasino yo yo yo
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2020-06-22 13:42:02 jan6 yo schmo
2020-06-22 13:42:26 jan6 why is there a diamond emoji, but no gemini zodiac sign emoji in topic?
2020-06-22 13:42:30 jan6 lol
2020-06-22 13:43:18 jan6 it's gemini space mission, not GEMini treasure hunt, after all ;P
2020-06-22 13:47:10 @tomasino the zodiac unicodes look lame?
2020-06-22 13:47:32 jan6 get a better font that doesn't make it look lame?
2020-06-22 13:47:41 jan6 and no more lame than any other emoji
2020-06-22 13:47:42 jan6 lol
2020-06-22 13:47:55 jan6 ♊
2020-06-22 13:48:08 jan6 looks no worse than 💎
2020-06-22 13:48:32 @xq ♊♊♊
2020-06-22 13:48:36 paper aww, config file called gem.ini
2020-06-22 13:48:54 jan6 lol
2020-06-22 13:48:57 plugd has quit (Ping timeout: 120 seconds)
2020-06-22 13:49:10 @tomasino https://ttm.sh/Q_E.png
2020-06-22 13:49:22 @tomasino gem looks cooler
2020-06-22 13:49:55 @xq i (obviously) preferr the gem :D
2020-06-22 13:52:06 @tomasino i actually had no stance on the issue until jan6 came out in favor of zodiac. now on principle i have to go with the stone
2020-06-22 13:52:42 jan6 nah
2020-06-22 13:52:48 jan6 I'd prefer both ;P
2020-06-22 13:53:10 jan6 so now on principle, you'd have to not want either, tomasino
2020-06-22 13:54:22 ▬▬▶ plugd has joined #gemini
2020-06-22 13:54:41 @xq makeworld: https://wiki.gnupg.org/WKD
2020-06-22 13:54:59 @xq maybe we can do something similar to CAs in gemini, but peer-to-peer/distributed
2020-06-22 13:56:33 @xq so a friend-based trust list. "if this guy thinks, this site is okay, i can assume that as well"
2020-06-22 14:02:42 paper xq: something like this was discussed a few days ago and I think solderpunk is thinking about it
2020-06-22 14:04:11 @tomasino we should get rid of unicode
2020-06-22 14:04:14 @tomasino ;)
2020-06-22 14:04:27 paper yay, go ASCII only
2020-06-22 14:04:29 plugd tomasino: Sean's tests getting you down? :-)
2020-06-22 14:04:39 @tomasino nah, jan6 related
2020-06-22 14:04:50 @tomasino dots & dashes are probably better
2020-06-22 14:05:10 jan6 lol
2020-06-22 14:05:13 jan6 ascii sux
2020-06-22 14:05:19 tadzik unicode is a joke taken too far
2020-06-22 14:05:31 jan6 tadzik: just try to write chinese in ascii
2020-06-22 14:05:42 tadzik jan6: I can't even write my own name in ascii
2020-06-22 14:05:45 jan6 or juggle 500 codepages
2020-06-22 14:06:01 tadzik but I'd be willing to take that sacrifice if it means taking the emojis down with me
2020-06-22 14:06:08 jan6 it's either tons of incompatible codepages, or one unicode
2020-06-22 14:06:13 jan6 nobody forces you to have emoji
2020-06-22 14:06:14 jan6 lol
2020-06-22 14:06:20 jan6 you can simply patch them out of your font
2020-06-22 14:06:24 tadzik well it's no longer unicode if you skip them
2020-06-22 14:06:33 jan6 you can also just replace them the black and white versions
2020-06-22 14:06:36 tadzik I do that :)
2020-06-22 14:06:43 jan6 in which case they're not too bad
2020-06-22 14:06:49 tadzik but the otherwise wonderful idea is now bloated by design
2020-06-22 14:06:59 jan6 you don't have to handle ALL of unicode, anyway
2020-06-22 14:07:11 jan6 you never had to
2020-06-22 14:07:12 paper I hate … instead of ..., but it seems to be typographically better
2020-06-22 14:07:18 jan6 heh
2020-06-22 14:07:25 tadzik and one day we'll meet some interstellar civilization and it'll turn out that we need UTF-64 to fit their alphabet because we wasted all the smaller codepoints on FRONT FACING BABY CHICKEN or some BS
2020-06-22 14:07:29 tadzik mark my words
2020-06-22 14:07:34 tadzik it'll be IPv4 all over again
2020-06-22 14:07:35 jan6 unicode is great, you only need to implement the parts you need though
2020-06-22 14:07:40 jan6 no
2020-06-22 14:07:50 jan6 that's not a job for unicode, lol
2020-06-22 14:07:58 @tomasino dot dot dash
2020-06-22 14:08:00 jan6 that's Galactic Standard Alphabet
2020-06-22 14:08:11 tadzik I've no doubt we'll ruin that too
2020-06-22 14:08:12 jan6 and Galactic Unicode
2020-06-22 14:08:28 tadzik I'd be happy with the Sensible Unicode, and Sensible UTF-8
2020-06-22 14:08:34 jan6 just use UCS-2
2020-06-22 14:08:46 jan6 it encodes all of Basic Multilingual Plane, I think
2020-06-22 14:08:51 tadzik hm
2020-06-22 14:08:52 plugd jan6: Galactic Unicode is probably already full of alien emoji
2020-06-22 14:08:55 jan6 it's basically a Sensible utf-16
2020-06-22 14:09:04 jan6 no variable width, either
2020-06-22 14:10:00 jan6 just imagine if unicode included every distinct species of everything as emoji, lol
2020-06-22 14:10:31 `epochbot unicode-earth
2020-06-22 14:10:32 jan6 distinct, as in, has recognizeable features
2020-06-22 14:10:39 jan6 unique features, I meant
2020-06-22 14:10:44 `epochbot unicode-human ?
2020-06-22 14:10:45 tadzik I wish regular characters followed that same rule ;)
2020-06-22 14:11:24 tadzik at least I can break emoticon->emoji substitution with the zero-width space
2020-06-22 14:11:32 tadzik there's some good in that technology
2020-06-22 14:11:42 `epochbot if there ends up being written language by other species, will it get inluded in unicode?
2020-06-22 14:12:03 tadzik Tolkien's elvish is in there,no?
2020-06-22 14:12:21 tadzik also, how do you know ancient earth languages were written by humans? %)
2020-06-22 14:13:04 `epochbot heiroglyphs
2020-06-22 14:13:04 `epochbot ,,,,,,,
2020-06-22 14:13:04 `epochbot ,%%%%%%%%%m
2020-06-22 14:13:04 `epochbot %%%/ '''%%
2020-06-22 14:13:04 `epochbot %| _ _ %%
2020-06-22 14:13:04 `epochbot | - - |/
2020-06-22 14:13:04 `epochbot | /_ |
2020-06-22 14:13:04 `epochbot |. == _/
2020-06-22 14:13:04 `epochbot . _-' '--' '-.
2020-06-22 14:13:04 `epochbot .-// . . '-_
2020-06-22 14:13:04 `epochbot / | \// . \\ '-.
2020-06-22 14:13:04 `epochbot / | / \\/ | |
2020-06-22 14:13:05 `epochbot / / / | | |
2020-06-22 14:13:06 `epochbot A L I E N S
2020-06-22 14:14:01 tadzik nice
2020-06-22 14:14:26 tadzik (see, we can have all that fun with no silly unicode! /s)
2020-06-22 14:14:29 jan6 lol
2020-06-22 14:14:54 jan6 tadzik: emoticon -> emoji substitution is not a thing to basically anyone
2020-06-22 14:14:55 jan6 ;p
2020-06-22 14:15:02 tadzik jan6: haha, I wish :D
2020-06-22 14:15:15 jan6 I see :D not "laughing emoji"
2020-06-22 14:15:18 companion_cube 🌈👽🌈
2020-06-22 14:15:18 jan6 ;p
2020-06-22 14:15:25 tadzik the worst thing is, you never know :o
2020-06-22 14:15:29 jan6 that is rainbow alien rainbow
2020-06-22 14:15:31 jan6 never know what
2020-06-22 14:15:34 tadzik jan6: well we're using good old sensible tech ;)
2020-06-22 14:15:40 tadzik I have a client using MS Teams now
2020-06-22 14:15:45 tadzik what an abomination
2020-06-22 14:15:55 jan6 https://www.unicode.org/emoji/charts/emoji-zwj-sequences.html
2020-06-22 14:16:10 jan6 the combining emoji are an abomination
2020-06-22 14:16:21 jan6 and don't work on terminals
2020-06-22 14:16:29 tadzik back in muh day I invented =:-D-\-<)8 because I wanted to be a punk on a skateboard
2020-06-22 14:16:39 tadzik now the creativity is built out of prefabs :(
2020-06-22 14:16:51 tadzik (yes, I know I built mine out of prefabs too)
2020-06-22 14:16:58 tadzik (don't ruin my dream)
2020-06-22 14:17:08 jan6 lol
2020-06-22 14:17:14 jan6 no it isn't
2020-06-22 14:17:19 jan6 creativity, that is
2020-06-22 14:18:21 tadzik yeah, I'm just being a bit grumpy
2020-06-22 14:18:35 tadzik (at the fact that system updates randomly reinstall the color-emoji font and it looks like ass in terminal)
2020-06-22 14:18:44 jan6 lol
2020-06-22 14:18:48 jan6 patch your main font then
2020-06-22 14:18:59 jan6 to include the black and white ones, or so
2020-06-22 14:19:06 tadzik it does, some of them anyway
2020-06-22 14:19:07 jan6 or set up font alternatives system better
2020-06-22 14:19:42 tadzik I'd prefer sanity by default :) They work in browsers and "modern" chat clients anyway
2020-06-22 14:19:53 jan6 or, here's an idea... make an empty file, chown to root, chmod to 000
2020-06-22 14:19:53 jan6 ;p
2020-06-22 14:20:02 jan6 that way it won't be overwritten ;P
2020-06-22 14:20:05 tadzik :o
2020-06-22 14:20:14 jan6 or something like that
2020-06-22 14:20:21 jan6 or symlink it to /dev/null
2020-06-22 14:20:24 tadzik I'm not even sure if it's just a single file on modern linux, things be crazy these days
2020-06-22 14:20:31 jan6 fonts still are
2020-06-22 14:20:32 jan6 lol
2020-06-22 14:20:37 jan6 not sure the package is
2020-06-22 14:20:40 tadzik even keymaps are no longer simple files in xkb/symbols
2020-06-22 14:20:47 jan6 WHICH keymaps
2020-06-22 14:20:48 jan6 lol
2020-06-22 14:20:49 tadzik gnome has some XML definitions for these
2020-06-22 14:20:58 tadzik mine! :P
2020-06-22 14:21:00 jan6 there's several different incompatible keymap formats now
2020-06-22 14:21:07 ~tiwesdaeg xq: you better hurry up with that android port, deedum is already in the play store
2020-06-22 14:21:14 tadzik I've one that sets perfectly fine with `setxkbmap`
2020-06-22 14:21:25 tadzik but it doesn't show up in barely any of the GUI tools
2020-06-22 14:21:46 jan6 setxkbmap sets x11 keymap, but gnome can have its own ON TOP of that ;P
2020-06-22 14:21:53 tadzik gah!
2020-06-22 14:21:55 jan6 which is why DEs sux
2020-06-22 14:22:02 jan6 there's also console keymap
2020-06-22 14:22:06 jan6 which is ALSO different
2020-06-22 14:22:06 tadzik they're the emojis of x11
2020-06-22 14:22:08 ⚡ tadzik hides
2020-06-22 14:22:14 jan6 lol
2020-06-22 14:22:16 tadzik yeah, I don't wanna go anywhere near that :P
2020-06-22 14:22:32 tadzik I tried to dig into how exactly gnome is doing this, but they must hide their documentation really well
2020-06-22 14:22:38 jan6 nah
2020-06-22 14:22:43 tadzik so I just keep a fix-computer.sh that I autorun
2020-06-22 14:22:44 jan6 probably just used wrong search terms
2020-06-22 14:22:49 jan6 or looked in wrong places
2020-06-22 14:22:54 tadzik can't go wrong with that
2020-06-22 14:24:14 jan6 lol
2020-06-22 14:25:19 jan6 https://wiki.debian.org/Keyboard
2020-06-22 14:25:21 jan6 has some info
2020-06-22 14:25:35 jan6 though might be out of date
2020-06-22 14:26:38 jan6 some IBus or so might be interfering, plus like 2 gnome commands, + one to reset it (assumedly to the same as the default one you already set)
2020-06-22 14:28:49 tadzik I gave on GNOME since, but I do have a similar problem with KDE now
2020-06-22 14:36:09 jan6 gave on? gave up?
2020-06-22 14:36:20 tadzik yes, sorry
2020-06-22 14:36:40 jan6 well, all the big DEs probably do rather similar things ;P
2020-06-22 14:36:46 tadzik yeah, I guess so :)
2020-06-22 14:37:02 companion_cube https://robert.ocallahan.org/2020/05/why-forking-html-into-static-language.html
2020-06-22 14:37:12 tadzik I do like a DE on the desktop though, so I endure these minor thingies
2020-06-22 14:37:30 tadzik it may also help if I read up on how this whole layouting works instead of relying on this one xkb file I wrote like 12 years ago
2020-06-22 14:39:59 tadzik companion_cube: I guess you could say google's AMP is kind of what the author describes: a smaller subset of HTML that you bully people into adopting
2020-06-22 14:40:11 tadzik it doesn't take the idea very far though, obviously
2020-06-22 14:41:29 jan6 AMP is evil
2020-06-22 14:41:40 tadzik no argument there
2020-06-22 14:41:58 companion_cube can anyone be on #gemini and think AMP is not evil? :D
2020-06-22 14:41:59 tadzik mostly the implementation though, the idea is not *completely* bad
2020-06-22 14:42:21 tadzik I wouldn't mind a subset of modern web that doesn't move stuff around as I'm trying to read
2020-06-22 14:42:45 tadzik but "text loading slower than the images" sure is way higher on the list of annoyances :P
2020-06-22 14:43:09 tadzik webfonts can go to hell
2020-06-22 14:44:12 @xq <paper> xq: something like this was discussed a few days ago and I think solderpunk is thinking about it
2020-06-22 14:44:24 @xq yeah, i actually think that's a good idea
2020-06-22 14:44:25 companion_cube anyone remembers the url of that blogpost on gemini not being html?
2020-06-22 14:46:00 jan6 webfonts aren't bad, if used correctly
2020-06-22 14:46:12 jan6 defaults are borked tho ;P
2020-06-22 14:46:42 tadzik yeah, I don't mind if they incrementally improve something and you barely notice when they don't work
2020-06-22 14:47:14 companion_cube (found the faq, nevermind)
2020-06-22 14:47:15 tadzik but often it's "we use that same font for text and icons so if you disable webfonts the icons break", and/or "we don't have fallback for non-webfonts at all"
2020-06-22 14:47:34 jan6 there is a way to use webfonts correctly, so it swaps the font once it's done loading
2020-06-22 14:47:42 jan6 but not showing ANYTHING till loaded, is just bad desig
2020-06-22 14:47:43 jan6 n
2020-06-22 14:47:49 tadzik yeah, I sometimes notice that pop-in, and it's not that bad
2020-06-22 14:48:22 jan6 lol you should use a different font for icons, of you NEED a font for icons, anyway
2020-06-22 14:48:32 jan6 and only use an appropriate subset
2020-06-22 14:48:52 jan6 like, not loading entire FontAwesome just to get facebook/twitter/instagram logos and nothing else
2020-06-22 14:49:08 @xq <tiwesdaeg> xq: you better hurry up with that android port, deedum is already in the play store
2020-06-22 14:49:23 @xq well, i keep my pace and i want to make a *good* android port, not a *functional* one
2020-06-22 14:49:32 ⚡ jan6 wonders if android terminal client would qualify as "android client" lol
2020-06-22 14:49:54 jan6 it runs on android, so technically?
2020-06-22 14:50:51 xfnw lol
2020-06-22 14:51:04 @xq lol :D
2020-06-22 14:51:04 xfnw jan6: unlock ur bootloader lol
2020-06-22 14:51:27 ⚡ companion_cube would be happy if there were no webfonts at all 🤷
2020-06-22 14:51:40 companion_cube in fact for a long time I forbade custom fonts in firefox
2020-06-22 14:51:46 xfnw lol
2020-06-22 14:51:56 jan6 lol
2020-06-22 14:52:28 plugd has quit (Client exited)
2020-06-22 14:52:32 tadzik play store shmey store, where is the f-droid build? :)
2020-06-22 14:52:41 jan6 I think fonts should have limits, and follow similar design standards, so that you can swap them out and keep everything the same ;P
2020-06-22 14:52:45 tadzik don't say it's on android if it's only on google android P:
2020-06-22 14:53:08 jan6 tadzik: you DO know there's yalp and aurora store and several online places? ;P
2020-06-22 14:53:17 @xq <tadzik> play store shmey store, where is the f-droid build? :)
2020-06-22 14:53:18 jan6 also it's PROBABLY available as source
2020-06-22 14:53:22 @xq Kristall will be F-Droid only
2020-06-22 14:53:27 tadzik xq: wonderful :)
2020-06-22 14:53:32 jan6 f-droid ONLY? why?
2020-06-22 14:53:41 tadzik jan6: yeah, that's too many extra steps for me to bother though :P
2020-06-22 14:54:10 jan6 xfnw: unlock it for me if you so desire, no other way to open it, lol
2020-06-22 14:54:35 snoe fdroid is kinda overwhelming, but I'll get deedum there eventually
2020-06-22 14:54:47 tadzik I do wonder how much of a bother is it to build something into an .apk from scratch
2020-06-22 14:54:52 tadzik I assume you need android studio or something?
2020-06-22 14:55:07 snoe i'm building on github actions - just need the sdks
2020-06-22 14:55:11 @xq jan6: because i don't want to use a google account? ;)
2020-06-22 14:55:31 jan6 lol
2020-06-22 14:55:32 @xq tadzik: android sdk
2020-06-22 14:55:40 tadzik nod nod
2020-06-22 14:55:57 @xq you need android sdk, NDK, jdk 2, …
2020-06-22 14:56:02 @xq and gradle
2020-06-22 14:56:03 @xq for building android stuff
2020-06-22 14:56:06 @xq it's super-overkill
2020-06-22 14:56:08 jan6 don't think ALL of them
2020-06-22 14:56:17 jan6 it's just the "official way" to get all of them
2020-06-22 14:56:34 jan6 well, get android studio which in turn gets all the stuff
2020-06-22 14:57:02 jan6 at least the adb and so were liberated from the full sdk, lol
2020-06-22 14:57:23 jan6 adb install -g Kristall.apk
2020-06-22 14:57:23 jan6 ;P
2020-06-22 14:57:28 @xq hehe
2020-06-22 14:57:30 @xq yeah, true
2020-06-22 14:57:36 @xq i want dependencies as low as possible
2020-06-22 14:57:43 @xq but a android build with Qt isn't that easy
2020-06-22 14:58:08 jan6 I'd love if there was a way to have package install, or even full out adb permissions for normal user-mode apps
2020-06-22 14:58:30 jan6 maybe some fancy adb command, like there is for system logs (needed by logcat apps and whatnot), but still
2020-06-22 14:58:38 snoe ui frameworks these days is almost always dependent on js now, which kills me
2020-06-22 14:58:49 jan6 depends which ones, I guess
2020-06-22 14:59:07 jan6 mainstream stuff tends to crapify over time, with accelerating speed
2020-06-22 14:59:21 @xq snoe: Use Qt!
2020-06-22 14:59:49 jan6 Qt is a bit bloaty itself, but at least it produces acceptable stuff cross-platform ;P
2020-06-22 15:00:31 @xq yeah, Qt isn't slim
2020-06-22 15:00:38 @xq but you can slim it down with static linking
2020-06-22 15:00:44 tadzik I started with that assumption recently and fellback to Gtk. C++ is not easy to bind to :|
2020-06-22 15:00:44 @xq (which i want to try for Kristall linux release…) :D
2020-06-22 15:00:53 snoe I gave up trying qt on mobile :/ also all the qt docs now point at qxml which seems to be basically the same problem
2020-06-22 15:01:04 @xq tadzik: true. sadly Gtk3 isn't nice either :(
2020-06-22 15:01:10 tadzik also, the mere installation of Qt on windows was almost enough to warrant a ragequit
2020-06-22 15:01:18 ~tiwesdaeg xq: I'm just poking at you. You're doing great
2020-06-22 15:01:19 jan6 what ame problem, snoe?
2020-06-22 15:01:19 @xq tadzik: huh?!
2020-06-22 15:01:29 @xq that's just "use the download manager and it will work self-contained"?
2020-06-22 15:01:40 tadzik the download manager peaked at about 100kB/s for me
2020-06-22 15:01:45 jan6 lol
2020-06-22 15:01:49 @xq yeah, it sometimes does that
2020-06-22 15:01:49 @xq :D
2020-06-22 15:01:51 tadzik the offline installer is no more these days, apparently
2020-06-22 15:01:56 @xq tiwesdaeg: still! i'd love to surf gemspace on mobile
2020-06-22 15:02:03 tadzik and then good luck talking to it from Rust
2020-06-22 15:02:04 jan6 use ssh?
2020-06-22 15:02:04 snoe @jan6 the problem of having to use an html + css layout engine in order to build a gemini browser
2020-06-22 15:02:15 jan6 huh
2020-06-22 15:02:20 jan6 I mean html+css isn't bad
2020-06-22 15:02:21 tadzik Gtk was just a breeze, in both aspects
2020-06-22 15:02:29 jan6 but it's not great for forcing to use on native apps
2020-06-22 15:02:40 tadzik though I admit I only know how to build it because neovim has a CI script in its repo :P
2020-06-22 15:02:48 jan6 lol
2020-06-22 15:03:03 snoe if you're using rust, have you checked out druid? they seem to be doing it right
2020-06-22 15:03:05 tadzik apparently msys2 is a thing and it makes windows less awful
2020-06-22 15:03:24 tadzik snoe: well, my "benchmark" for a toolkit was "can I spin up a file chooser dialog without implementing it myself"
2020-06-22 15:03:45 tadzik I had more enough to worry about in that project, I didn't feel like build a native-looking FS browser myself :)
2020-06-22 15:03:56 jan6 so is cygwin, so is wsl (though wsl is just linux, so ¯\o/¯)
2020-06-22 15:03:57 tadzik so it was down to Gtk and Qt, basically
2020-06-22 15:04:20 snoe haha, yeah :( end of civilization
2020-06-22 15:04:25 tadzik jan6: I'm not sure if wsl is capable of build non-WSL binaries though
2020-06-22 15:04:36 jan6 I mean, you can build windows programs on linux
2020-06-22 15:04:42 jan6 so...sure?
2020-06-22 15:05:00 tadzik eh, I guess?
2020-06-22 15:05:12 jan6 and that's a problem with cygwin
2020-06-22 15:05:20 jan6 wsl is just normal linux afaik
2020-06-22 15:05:27 tadzik I don't know, this was my first time on windows for years :P
2020-06-22 15:05:31 jan6 for the most part at least, kernel might be microsoft
2020-06-22 15:05:38 jan6 hehe
2020-06-22 15:05:44 tadzik on msys2 there was pacman, which installed gtk, and then all that was left to do was the zip the exe with the dlls
2020-06-22 15:05:57 tadzik that's like working on a real os
2020-06-22 15:07:28 jan6 oh btw, windows 10 has a package manager now ;P
2020-06-22 15:08:00 tadzik wake me up when it has rebootless updates :
2020-06-22 15:08:05 jan6 lol
2020-06-22 15:08:16 jan6 that's probably impossible because of all the legacy crap
2020-06-22 15:08:26 jan6 registry and whatnot
2020-06-22 15:08:32 tadzik could be
2020-06-22 15:14:25 jan6 I mean, "con" and whatnot are *STILL* prohibited from being used as filenames
2020-06-22 15:15:02 jan6 lol, in a git repo make src/.../con/secret_stuff and windows won't get it ;P
2020-06-22 15:15:05 kensanata has quit (Ping timeout: 120 seconds)
2020-06-22 15:16:05 tadzik hahah
2020-06-22 15:16:10 tadzik I remember reading about that, yeah
2020-06-22 15:16:19 tadzik they do take backcompat seriously, you gotta give them that
2020-06-22 15:16:33 tadzik on linux I can barely play the games I bought 5 years ago
2020-06-22 15:17:46 yeti linux is a game
2020-06-22 15:18:33 @xq windows gaming on linux is now more performant than on windows for a (non-small) subset of games
2020-06-22 15:26:44 ~tiwesdaeg I wonder how overwatch works on linux these days
2020-06-22 15:27:12 ~tiwesdaeg I couldn't get it to run that well last year
2020-06-22 16:11:17 ▬▬▶ acdw has joined #gemini
2020-06-22 16:11:34 acdw morning all!
2020-06-22 16:11:53 acdw do yall know if there are any unix-type operating systems which *don't* have the `date` command?
2020-06-22 16:12:12 acdw slash do you know how to parse a date with only bash? lol
2020-06-22 16:17:42 acdw slash slash do you know how to get openssl x509 to output arbitrary date formats with -date? lol
2020-06-22 16:17:47 acdw 2xlol
2020-06-22 16:19:19 tadzik hehe, does bash itself have anything for string manipulation?
2020-06-22 16:19:32 ▬▬▶ everbern has joined #gemini
2020-06-22 16:19:34 tadzik I thought you have to rely on external programs for pretty much anything
2020-06-22 16:19:51 acdw bash actually has pretty robust string manipulation, and even math
2020-06-22 16:19:52 tadzik and since you do, and Perl is a part of LSB.... ;)
2020-06-22 16:19:57 tadzik oh, interesting
2020-06-22 16:20:01 acdw well... integer math
2020-06-22 16:20:08 acdw mmm perl
2020-06-22 16:20:19 acdw IDK if I wanna take a bite out of that onion.. ;)
2020-06-22 16:20:23 tadzik hehe
2020-06-22 16:20:35 acdw how are you this day tadzik?
2020-06-22 16:20:45 tadzik pretty well, thanks :)
2020-06-22 16:20:47 acdw I almost said morning but I realized that you might not be in my timezone
2020-06-22 16:20:48 acdw :)
2020-06-22 16:20:48 snoe I thought bash had a weird regex engine built in around vars
2020-06-22 16:21:06 acdw oh yeah it's got a regex thing ... [[ $VAR =~ RE ]]
2020-06-22 16:21:13 tadzik huh
2020-06-22 16:21:20 acdw it even groups with ${BASH_REMATCH[x]}
2020-06-22 16:21:30 tadzik you can do pretty much anything then :o
2020-06-22 16:21:38 acdw hmmm that *is* true
2020-06-22 16:21:43 tadzik even if it's the dumb regex.h variant
2020-06-22 16:22:02 acdw oof but I do *not* feel like writing that
2020-06-22 16:22:11 acdw not right now
2020-06-22 16:22:49 tadzik well, /(\d+)/g should give you all of the date components, the challenge is knowing the order :)
2020-06-22 16:23:44 acdw haha that's true. well except the dates are in this format: Aug 1 06:26:32 2020 GMT
2020-06-22 16:23:49 tadzik oh no
2020-06-22 16:24:48 acdw so /(\w+)\s+(\d+)\s+(\d\d):(\d\d):(\d\d)\s+(\d\d\d\d)\s+(\w+)/
2020-06-22 16:24:49 tadzik still, that's not *super* bad
2020-06-22 16:24:49 acdw lol
2020-06-22 16:25:15 acdw I need to make sure that's the only format the dates are ever in
2020-06-22 16:25:39 acdw and then gotta do math
2020-06-22 16:25:39 tadzik yeah, this one will at least fail early for anything else than that format
2020-06-22 16:25:55 acdw I really *hope* that is at least specced or something
2020-06-22 16:26:03 tadzik it's probably iso-something
2020-06-22 16:26:10 acdw b/c if SSL is going to use a stupid date format it'd better be consistent
2020-06-22 16:26:16 tadzik doesn't `date` have some options to parse and emit dates in arbitrary formats though?
2020-06-22 16:26:23 tadzik perhaps it's only gnu date, not sure if that works for you
2020-06-22 16:26:34 acdw yep! That's why I was asking lol
2020-06-22 16:27:07 tadzik brings you back to why Perl was created :P “it's easier to port a shell than a shell script”
2020-06-22 16:27:13 acdw hahah
2020-06-22 16:27:33 acdw is that why it's an onion? The layers of an onion like shells in shells in shells
2020-06-22 16:28:01 tadzik hehe, I don't actually know where the onion comes from
2020-06-22 16:28:03 tadzik inb4 it's the smell
2020-06-22 16:28:36 acdw lolol
2020-06-22 16:30:19 tadzik acdw: are you writing that bash gemini client?
2020-06-22 16:30:27 acdw yep! bollux
2020-06-22 16:30:31 tadzik awesome :)
2020-06-22 16:30:34 acdw :) Thanks
2020-06-22 16:30:57 acdw I *want* it to be 100% in bash, but openssl is a pretty hard dependency (I do *not* know anything about crypto)
2020-06-22 16:31:09 acdw and until I can write a pager in bash, 'less' is also one
2020-06-22 16:31:20 acdw so I'm thinking that for the time being, it's okay if 'date' is one too
2020-06-22 16:42:35 makeworld I would say so
2020-06-22 16:44:11 acdw :D thanks makeworld
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2020-06-22 17:29:22 jan6 19:11 <acdw> do yall know if there are any unix-type operating systems which *don't* have the `date` command?
2020-06-22 17:29:35 jan6 if you don't have "date" you probably don't have bash or zsh either, lol
2020-06-22 17:29:42 acdw oh cool
2020-06-22 17:30:01 acdw that's good to know jan6, thank you!
2020-06-22 17:31:17 jan6 I mean, it's not a fact
2020-06-22 17:32:01 tadzik if you already use openssl you may be able to create a new cert and look at its creation date :>
2020-06-22 17:32:05 jan6 also busybox's and toybox's utilities would probably be pretty easy to port, if you needed "date"
2020-06-22 17:32:59 jan6 just make cert validation an optional feature, acdw, and boom, no worries ;P
2020-06-22 17:33:13 jan6 "need "date" for cert validation (enabled by default)"
2020-06-22 17:33:27 acdw oh that's a pretty good idea too.
2020-06-22 17:33:33 acdw I'll make it configurable I think!
2020-06-22 17:33:47 jan6 it's also possible to use socat for ssl, and such, but not sure you can get the certs from socat
2020-06-22 17:33:51 acdw That ties in well w/ solderpunk's whole differing clients for differing needs
2020-06-22 17:34:05 jan6 I used socat before going for openssl s_client from my simple gemini_get.sh
2020-06-22 17:34:14 jan6 *for
2020-06-22 17:34:34 acdw TBH the cert thing is a good piont for openssl s_client
2020-06-22 17:34:52 acdw I think I'm going to stick w/ it -- b/c openssl also has x509 which is what I"m using for validation
2020-06-22 17:34:57 acdw one command
2020-06-22 17:35:04 jan6 socat can be a bit finnicky though, I had to put a manual wait time, or socat would just silently fail
2020-06-22 17:35:35 jan6 certs can be self signed, and in gemini often are, as I heard, are those validated well? ;P
2020-06-22 17:39:50 snoe60 got a question for yall, in deedum I was playing with the idea of sizing pre text blocks to take up the whole width of the browser - so whether it broke at 40, 80, or 120 chars it could act as a "header" of sorts and mitigates the need to horizontal scroll. Is that too weird?
2020-06-22 17:41:05 yeti too long lines just hurt
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2020-06-22 17:41:08 acdw snoe60: is that not what it already is? What it's doing now I really like
2020-06-22 17:41:17 snoe60 yeah that's what it does now
2020-06-22 17:41:36 acdw I really like it
2020-06-22 17:41:45 snoe60 ok cool, thanks
2020-06-22 17:41:47 acdw Maybe an option where if you double-tap it it'd zoom in would be okay
2020-06-22 17:41:51 acdw for detailed art
2020-06-22 17:42:00 Sario528 I'm a fan of not having to scroll horizontally
2020-06-22 17:42:06 snoe60 right, I was thinking of cycling through char width breaks
2020-06-22 17:42:13 acdw ooh i like that
2020-06-22 17:42:35 snoe60 and then ... softwrap?
2020-06-22 17:43:42 snoe60 hrm for art, it might have to overflow then
2020-06-22 17:44:20 snoe60 i think that's a good idea though, it would basically act like an image
2020-06-22 17:45:36 snoe60 I've been using gemini://tilde.black/users/brool/stoned.txt as a test case, but it has one very long line on the bottom that throws it all off :(
2020-06-22 17:45:45 jan6 probably best to have an option for the preformatted, let it be as small as it has to be to fit all at once, or require user to scroll
2020-06-22 17:46:38 jan6 some art would look good zoomed out too, but some stuff will need to be readable
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2020-06-22 18:19:09 CommunistWolf hmm, I got really stressed about a piece of code in Agate but it turns out to be fine
2020-06-22 18:19:12 CommunistWolf no path traversal
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2020-06-22 18:25:57 @xq small change in Kristall: https://mq32.de/public/f8c63ef781cc69ff823bdd5e3556dca326d91394.png
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2020-06-22 18:35:09 @xq hey kensanata
2020-06-22 18:35:19 kensanata yo
2020-06-22 18:35:33 kensanata making fennel soup... what's up?
2020-06-22 18:35:58 @xq good idea, i should get into the kitchen as well
2020-06-22 18:36:10 @xq have already finished one bullet point from Kristall 0.4 todo list :3
2020-06-22 18:36:14 @xq light/dark icons
2020-06-22 18:50:01 plugd xq: I like the bookmark folders. The ability to nest bookmark groups has been on the todo list for elpher for ages, but I've yet to find a sufficiently elegant approach there.
2020-06-22 18:50:39 @xq bookmarks in groups will come to kristall in the next release
2020-06-22 18:50:46 @xq right now, it's just a flat list
2020-06-22 18:51:03 @xq but not sure if i want to support full folder structures or just a flat "group/bookmark" list
2020-06-22 18:51:13 plugd hrm, must have been reading your screenshot wrongly
2020-06-22 18:51:21 @xq that's certificates!
2020-06-22 18:51:24 @xq not bookmarks
2020-06-22 18:51:38 plugd ah! sorry :-)
2020-06-22 18:51:55 plugd (now I see the greyed out expiration date fields)
2020-06-22 18:52:52 @xq no worries
2020-06-22 18:52:58 @xq i want to support the same style for bookmarks as well
2020-06-22 18:53:08 @xq and allow quick-search in bookmarks via the search/URL bar
2020-06-22 18:54:09 plugd I get search for free because emacs :-P
2020-06-22 18:55:23 @xq haha
2020-06-22 18:55:28 @xq well, not document search
2020-06-22 18:55:31 @xq but site search
2020-06-22 18:55:44 @xq so you get completions based on your browsing history and your favourites
2020-06-22 18:55:52 @xq i want to do the following as well:
2020-06-22 18:55:55 plugd that's cool.
2020-06-22 18:56:07 @xq type "gus", hit tab, enter a search term and you will be able to search in gus :)
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2020-06-22 18:57:15 plugd nice. I might think of doing something like that too.
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2020-06-22 19:04:01 jan6 do it with bangs!
2020-06-22 19:06:06 ⚡ jan6 is slowly fiddling with making a lil gemini client in haxe, so far got to the point of "can get raw page and use 3x redirects"
2020-06-22 19:06:46 @xq :)
2020-06-22 19:06:48 @xq that's something!
2020-06-22 19:06:49 jan6 is there any "normal" test page? as in, not a torture test, but just a casual test?
2020-06-22 19:07:31 jan6 examples of each status and whatnot, and of each element
2020-06-22 19:08:50 acdw ya know that'd be a good thing to have
2020-06-22 19:08:59 @xq visit gemini://mozz.us, it will redirect you to gemini://mozz.us/
2020-06-22 19:09:08 @xq also, check out egsam!
2020-06-22 19:09:17 @xq gemini://egsam.pitr.ca/
2020-06-22 19:09:35 @xq it as nice test suite with "more common" use cases
2020-06-22 19:09:40 @xq and not "all edge cases
2020-06-22 19:16:33 @xq does someone know a site hosted with markdown content?
2020-06-22 19:17:40 ~tiwesdaeg xq: like the whole site is markdown?
2020-06-22 19:17:46 ~tiwesdaeg or it has markdown files
2020-06-22 19:19:55 ~tiwesdaeg gemini://libraryoferis.org/files/The_Honest_Book_of_Truth.md
2020-06-22 19:29:39 @xq some markdown files are okay
2020-06-22 19:29:48 @xq my server is bugging around and is not responding on new connections
2020-06-22 19:29:55 @xq so i need some wa around that
2020-06-22 19:32:36 acdw has quit (Client exited)
2020-06-22 19:32:45 ~tiwesdaeg gemini://libraryoferis.org/cgi-bin/item.cgi?LOE00136
2020-06-22 19:32:54 ~tiwesdaeg that's the page that links to the file
2020-06-22 19:33:34 ~tiwesdaeg Markdown text color and dark themes for 0.4?
2020-06-22 19:35:03 @xq thanks :)
2020-06-22 19:35:12 @xq waaay better markdown support
2020-06-22 19:35:17 @xq outline, theming, ...
2020-06-22 19:35:30 @xq pretty much the full feature set of text/gemini + markdown specifics
2020-06-22 19:46:02 ~tiwesdaeg gemini://ik.ci/
2020-06-22 19:46:29 ~tiwesdaeg playing around with tomasino's tiny ncat shell server
2020-06-22 19:46:33 @xq hihi
2020-06-22 19:47:17 ~tiwesdaeg I just included the gemini format in to the shell script instead of using a separate file
2020-06-22 19:48:23 ~tiwesdaeg not a ton of cheap 4 character domains left in the world
2020-06-22 19:48:34 @xq the reserve is limited
2020-06-22 19:48:35 ~tiwesdaeg at least for cheap
2020-06-22 19:48:47 ~tiwesdaeg .ci has some left
2020-06-22 19:49:33 jan6 huh
2020-06-22 19:49:38 jan6 never heard of .ci
2020-06-22 19:49:46 ~tiwesdaeg Ivory Coast
2020-06-22 19:50:32 jan6 ah, I wonder if that also has a "should be related to our country/culture" like most place-names do
2020-06-22 19:51:19 ~tiwesdaeg not that I could tell
2020-06-22 19:51:34 ~tiwesdaeg there are some other's that you have to submit proof of residency
2020-06-22 19:52:03 ~tiwesdaeg this was pretty painless through https://www.francedns.co/
2020-06-22 19:52:04 jan6 but like .cat is SUPPOSED to be related to catalan culture
2020-06-22 19:52:27 @xq file.cat
2020-06-22 19:52:34 ~tiwesdaeg 16 euros was pretty cheap
2020-06-22 19:53:56 plugd It'd be interesting to have an alternate pubnix DNS network.
2020-06-22 19:54:32 ~tiwesdaeg there is one in the tildeverse
2020-06-22 19:55:15 plugd realy? great!
2020-06-22 19:55:22 ~tiwesdaeg https://tildenic.org/
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2020-06-22 20:04:52 jan6 16 eur? that's not cheap, that's about average, slighly more expensive
2020-06-22 20:05:10 ~tiwesdaeg cheap for 4 characters
2020-06-22 20:05:20 ~tiwesdaeg everything else that is left is premium
2020-06-22 20:14:21 @xq ##[warning]Failed to download action 'https://api.github.com/repos/actions/checkout/tarball/v2'. Error: Name or service not known
2020-06-22 20:14:21 @xq 14
2020-06-22 20:14:22 @xq LOL
2020-06-22 20:14:31 @xq github actions tells me that github.com is not reachable :D
2020-06-22 20:21:02 krixano github.com has been down for some people today
2020-06-22 20:21:49 @xq yep
2020-06-22 20:21:52 @xq including github.com :D
2020-06-22 20:22:22 @xq their DNS record is empty…
2020-06-22 20:22:24 @xq weird
2020-06-22 20:24:35 krixano It's interesting, because github.com works for me.
2020-06-22 20:26:22 companion_cube what's this "tilde" thing I keep seeing? :D
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2020-06-22 21:00:30 ~tiwesdaeg companion_cube: https://tildeverse.org/
2020-06-22 21:00:42 companion_cube ah, thank you!
2020-06-22 21:06:02 companion_cube hum, so it's a set of like-minded communities, each of which shares a single server?
2020-06-22 21:08:20 ~tiwesdaeg something like that
2020-06-22 21:08:29 thewetcrab Hi companion_cube, are you new here?
2020-06-22 21:08:36 thewetcrab in the tildeverse?
2020-06-22 21:08:46 companion_cube I've been lurking for a few weeks, I think?
2020-06-22 21:08:53 ~tiwesdaeg kind of like a sub-genera of pubnix
2020-06-22 21:09:21 companion_cube I don't know that :s
2020-06-22 21:09:35 ~tiwesdaeg this irc server is deep in the heart of the tildeverse
2020-06-22 21:10:23 ~tiwesdaeg public servers providing accounts with cool stuff to do
2020-06-22 21:10:52 companion_cube is there no risk of spam/overtake?
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2020-06-22 21:11:08 ~tiwesdaeg everything is pretty small
2020-06-22 21:11:22 ~tiwesdaeg the benevolent dictators kick out the riffraff
2020-06-22 21:11:43 ▬▬▶ thewetcran has joined #gemini
2020-06-22 21:12:30 ~tiwesdaeg the name comes the the ~ in the classic http urls of service providers of yesteryear
2020-06-22 21:12:32 companion_cube right, if you notice them quickly I guess it works
2020-06-22 21:12:36 companion_cube yeah that I can relate to :D
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2020-06-22 21:17:55 thewetcrab I got disconnected so lost the thread of the conversation ......
2020-06-22 21:18:13 thewetcrab But isn't a tilde server also a pubnix server?
2020-06-22 21:18:19 thewetcrab or are they different?
2020-06-22 21:19:27 dkibi companion_cube: there is even a tilde radio!
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2020-06-22 21:26:33 thewetcrab companion_cube, there is a lot to discover on the tilde servers, there is also a ham radio channel and I believe the is a VOiP .tel server somewhere ....
2020-06-22 21:26:39 thewetcrab lots of great things here,
2020-06-22 21:27:46 companion_cube it'd have been great for me 10y ago :)
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2020-06-22 21:30:59 thewetcrab why is that companion_cube?
2020-06-22 21:31:25 companion_cube I don't have time to explore this kind of stuff
2020-06-22 21:31:26 dkibi my gemini project is hampered by my inability to write parsers
2020-06-22 21:31:32 thewetcrab sounds like you have an interesting story to share, what was different 10 years ago?
2020-06-22 21:32:06 thewetcrab has quit (Client exited)
2020-06-22 21:32:14 dkibi poor wet crab
2020-06-22 21:32:34 companion_cube dkibi: you want to write a parser for text/gemini?
2020-06-22 21:32:50 @xq dkibi, need help?
2020-06-22 21:36:46 dkibi companion_cube: no for something built ontop of that it's super secret
2020-06-22 21:36:49 dkibi :P
2020-06-22 21:37:10 dkibi xq: I think a good night sleep might already help and I'm gonna get that now
2020-06-22 21:37:20 @xq haha
2020-06-22 21:37:25 @xq good night!
2020-06-22 21:37:27 companion_cube ahah :D
2020-06-22 21:37:33 companion_cube dkibi: don't you use haskell?
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2020-06-22 21:38:47 thewetcrab So sorry I keep getting disconected this evening,
2020-06-22 21:38:58 thewetcrab did you share your story with us companion_cube?
2020-06-22 21:40:48 companion_cube ahah my story is that I'm older, is all :D
2020-06-22 21:40:52 companion_cube life gets busier
2020-06-22 21:40:57 @xq older than? :D
2020-06-22 21:41:40 thewetcrab companion_cube so do you have an interest in linux and or self hosting?
2020-06-22 21:41:48 thewetcrab Or is it more of a general interest in computing?
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2020-06-22 21:47:04 thewetcrab I got disconnected again,
2020-06-22 21:47:10 thewetcrab did I miss your reply companion_cube?
2020-06-22 21:47:30 companion_cube ah well, I have a VPS already
2020-06-22 21:47:39 thewetcrab I think I have very high ping tonight and a very slow internet speed, I wonder if this is what is causing me to disconnect all the time,
2020-06-22 21:47:44 companion_cube gave up on email hosting a few years ago, too annoying
2020-06-22 21:47:54 companion_cube thewetcrab: may I suggest you put a tmux on some tilde? ;)
2020-06-22 21:48:04 thewetcrab in fact it even takes about 10 seconds for the message to appear, after hitting return .....
2020-06-22 21:48:22 thewetcrab Ah did you see my link for email hosting companion_cube?
2020-06-22 21:48:35 thewetcrab What do you run on your VPS?
2020-06-22 21:49:03 thewetcrab companion_cube I am here to learn so please make as many suggestions for me as possible.
2020-06-22 21:49:04 companion_cube I run debian
2020-06-22 21:49:22 thewetcrab I am on windows 10 tonight, so not sure if I can run tmux on here?
2020-06-22 21:49:37 companion_cube a pretty basic debian testing, really, with a few IRC bots, my tmux+weechat for IRC, and a syncthing
2020-06-22 21:49:49 companion_cube hmm maybe on WSL?
2020-06-22 21:49:57 makeworld Idk if anyone uses gemlikes lol, but I just made a patch release that makes sure pluses are escaped. I also added an example robots.txt to the README, so make sure you add that!
2020-06-22 21:50:31 makeworld Binaries being uploaded now
2020-06-22 21:51:55 thewetcrab what's WSL?
2020-06-22 21:52:18 thewetcrab is gemlikes a geminiserver?
2020-06-22 21:52:24 companion_cube windows sub-linux or something like that
2020-06-22 21:52:49 kayw yeep
2020-06-22 21:52:59 companion_cube https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/wsl2-index
2020-06-22 21:53:05 kayw its basically native Linux on Windows 10
2020-06-22 21:53:10 makeworld thewetcrab: It's a comment and liking system for Gemini, see https://github.com/makeworld-the-better-one/gemlikes
2020-06-22 21:53:11 kayw im using it now
2020-06-22 21:53:31 kayw https://i.salejandro.me/VMJmLf.png works great for ssh-ing into my vps to use weechat
2020-06-22 21:53:39 thewetcrab Oh nice! Hopefully comments will stay useful on gemini and not be come toxic like https://
2020-06-22 21:53:58 companion_cube a bit of a wide statement :p
2020-06-22 21:54:01 companion_cube blanket*
2020-06-22 21:54:26 thewetcrab hmm yes, sorry you are right!
2020-06-22 21:54:37 thewetcrab You get what I mean though (?)
2020-06-22 21:54:48 makeworld Yeah we'll have to see. So far I'm the only who uses it I think, and I know not everyone likes comments. I find them good sometimes, and it's more of a demo system than anything
2020-06-22 21:54:52 makeworld But it works!
2020-06-22 21:55:08 thewetcrab Oh it includes 'likes' too. totally not my think. I do think likes are somewhat toxic.
2020-06-22 21:55:28 makeworld Yeah, I don't totally disagree
2020-06-22 21:55:36 makeworld Maybe I'll add a way to disable them
2020-06-22 21:56:02 thewetcrab Well, I don't want to take away from your achievement, congratulations for getting it working. And although it's not my kind of thing I am certain there will be lots of people who will like it.
2020-06-22 21:56:24 makeworld Yeah we'll see. Not a big deal to me either way, but it was cool to make
2020-06-22 21:56:28 thewetcrab I miss read your comment as first as 'I totally disagree', but please to see I miss-read it.
2020-06-22 21:57:04 thewetcrab do you run a gemini server at the moment makeworld?
2020-06-22 21:57:16 makeworld I do, I'm at gemini://makeworld.gq
2020-06-22 21:57:39 makeworld Here, I made this issue about disabling likes if you want to subscribe to it: https://github.com/makeworld-the-better-one/gemlikes/issues/5
2020-06-22 21:57:44 thewetcrab I need to find a gemini browser for my win10 machine.
2020-06-22 21:57:47 makeworld Do you have a server or user account somewhere?
2020-06-22 21:57:49 ▬▬▶ plugd has joined #gemini
2020-06-22 21:58:11 makeworld Oh, use Geminaut. It looks great
2020-06-22 21:58:12 thewetcrab Unfortunatley now I don't have one right now so I can't take a look at your gemini page :(
2020-06-22 21:59:01 thewetcrab I started installing JetForce server a couple of days ago, but the install threw up and error and I am not competent / knowledgeable enough to understand what the error means or how to fix it :(
2020-06-22 21:59:11 xj9 there's a couple of web viewers out there
2020-06-22 21:59:27 thewetcrab I am currently running a internal gopher server at the moment. I am building my pages, but I hope to eventually make it public :)
2020-06-22 21:59:37 xj9 neat
2020-06-22 21:59:38 thewetcrab Ah can you link me to the web viewers please?
2020-06-22 21:59:50 makeworld portal.mozz.us
2020-06-22 22:00:04 makeworld thewetcrab: https://www.marmaladefoo.com/pages/geminaut
2020-06-22 22:00:12 makeworld There's a nice Windows browser for you, just use that
2020-06-22 22:00:25 makeworld But the portal I linked above also works
2020-06-22 22:00:34 makeworld I can help with your jetforce error if you want
2020-06-22 22:08:36 thewetcrab thank you makeworld I appreciate your help!
2020-06-22 22:08:47 thewetcrab I will see if I can log in now and get the error again,
2020-06-22 22:08:52 thewetcrab give me a minute or two please.
2020-06-22 22:09:00 thewetcrab The error is long is there somewhere I should paste it to?
2020-06-22 22:09:20 makeworld pastebin.com or any other paste service is good
2020-06-22 22:09:31 makeworld But update your server first before trying again
2020-06-22 22:09:40 makeworld pip3 install -U jetforce
2020-06-22 22:10:50 thewetcrab This is the first error that I get
2020-06-22 22:10:51 thewetcrab ~/jetforce# sudo python setup.py install
2020-06-22 22:10:51 thewetcrab Traceback (most recent call last):
2020-06-22 22:10:51 thewetcrab File "setup.py", line 3, in <module>
2020-06-22 22:10:51 thewetcrab import setuptools
2020-06-22 22:10:51 thewetcrab ImportError: No module named setuptools
2020-06-22 22:11:02 thewetcrab Which i think means I need to install supertools?
2020-06-22 22:11:21 thewetcrab So I run this ....
2020-06-22 22:11:22 thewetcrab sudo pip3 install setuptools
2020-06-22 22:12:33 thewetcrab That gives me this output .....
2020-06-22 22:12:33 thewetcrab Requirement already satisfied: setuptools in /usr/local/lib/python3.5/dist-packages
2020-06-22 22:12:37 thewetcrab hmmm
2020-06-22 22:13:05 thewetcrab running this now as you said ...
2020-06-22 22:13:06 thewetcrab pip3 install -U jetforce
2020-06-22 22:13:29 thewetcrab This outputs some writing in red ....
2020-06-22 22:13:30 thewetcrab Could not find a version that satisfies the requirement jetforce (from versions: )
2020-06-22 22:13:30 thewetcrab No matching distribution found for jetforce
2020-06-22 22:16:30 makeworld What are you installing this one, what system?
2020-06-22 22:16:39 thewetcrab just browsing your gemini site now makeworld :)
2020-06-22 22:16:50 makeworld Enjoy!
2020-06-22 22:16:51 thewetcrab I am installing it on an ornage pi zero, running armbian .....
2020-06-22 22:16:55 makeworld Okay
2020-06-22 22:16:59 thewetcrab I see you kept it as text only,
2020-06-22 22:17:01 makeworld So make sure you use Python3
2020-06-22 22:17:45 makeworld Try sudo python3 -m pip install -U jetforce
2020-06-22 22:17:51 makeworld Wdym text only?
2020-06-22 22:18:14 thewetcrab I am cd-ed in to jetforce, is that OK>
2020-06-22 22:18:26 thewetcrab that gives me this output
2020-06-22 22:18:27 thewetcrab Collecting jetforce
2020-06-22 22:18:27 thewetcrab Could not find a version that satisfies the requirement jetforce (from versions: )
2020-06-22 22:18:27 thewetcrab No matching distribution found for jetforce
2020-06-22 22:18:27 thewetcrab root@pihole:~/jetforce# python3 -m pip install -U jetforce
2020-06-22 22:18:27 thewetcrab Collecting jetforce
2020-06-22 22:18:27 thewetcrab Could not find a version that satisfies the requirement jetforce (from versions: )
2020-06-22 22:18:27 thewetcrab No matching distribution found for jetforce
2020-06-22 22:19:06 plugd has quit (The TLS connection was non-properly terminated.)
2020-06-22 22:19:23 thewetcrab I love that gopher sites and gemini sites are more like archives / curated information that other people have found interesting or useful.
2020-06-22 22:20:42 krixano Hm... I also get an error on raspbian
2020-06-22 22:21:03 thewetcrab thanks for checking krixano
2020-06-22 22:21:10 krixano When it tries to build "twisted"
2020-06-22 22:21:19 thewetcrab Is there a reason why we are getting this error?
2020-06-22 22:21:33 thewetcrab I'm guessing this doesn't happen on other linux distros.
2020-06-22 22:21:41 makeworld Hmm what's your Python version
2020-06-22 22:21:53 krixano I tested on my x64 computer, and it works just fine
2020-06-22 22:21:59 thewetcrab Raspbian and Armbian I believe are forks of Debian, but does this error happen on Debian too?
2020-06-22 22:22:02 makeworld Jetforce needs Python 3.7 or newer
2020-06-22 22:22:11 thewetcrab How do I check my python version please makeworld?
2020-06-22 22:22:25 krixano I'm on 3.7.3
2020-06-22 22:22:29 krixano I don't think it's that
2020-06-22 22:22:38 krixano It couldn't build a dependency, called "twisted"
2020-06-22 22:22:39 makeworld Huh
2020-06-22 22:22:46 makeworld thewetcrab: python3 --version
2020-06-22 22:22:48 krixano Let me check the error really quickly
2020-06-22 22:22:55 makeworld Ok, I gtg now
2020-06-22 22:23:01 thewetcrab I am on ....
2020-06-22 22:23:02 makeworld Maybe I can help with this later
2020-06-22 22:23:02 thewetcrab Python 3.5.3
2020-06-22 22:23:08 makeworld Ah, there's your problem
2020-06-22 22:23:10 thewetcrab OK no worries I will try catch you tomorrow makeworld
2020-06-22 22:23:19 thewetcrab Will you be around on here tomorrow?
2020-06-22 22:23:22 makeworld K gtg, but you need to find a way to update your Python
2020-06-22 22:23:25 krixano Well, there's *one* of the problems
2020-06-22 22:23:27 makeworld Yep, and later tonight too
2020-06-22 22:23:29 thewetcrab ha ha thanks,
2020-06-22 22:23:30 makeworld K bye
2020-06-22 22:23:32 thewetcrab I have to go now.
2020-06-22 22:23:49 thewetcrab I'll be back in around 10 hours or so.
2020-06-22 22:23:54 thewetcrab Or same time tomorrow evening.
2020-06-22 22:23:58 CommunistWolf searching for hugo gemini support, I'm asked: Did you mean: yugioh gemini support
2020-06-22 22:24:02 CommunistWolf no, no i did not
2020-06-22 22:24:10 thewetcrab Hope to catch up with you and get this fixed, as I would love to join gemini space :)
2020-06-22 22:24:15 thewetcrab Speak tomorrow :)
2020-06-22 22:24:25 thewetcrab Thank you for your help.
2020-06-22 22:24:27 thewetcrab Bye
2020-06-22 22:24:30 ⚡ thewetcrab waves bye
2020-06-22 22:25:11 thewetcrab has quit (Client exited)
2020-06-22 22:25:30 krixano This is the error I get while trying to build the twisted dep on raspbian: src/twisted/test/raiser.c:4:10: fatal error: Python.h: No such file or directory
2020-06-22 22:26:30 krixano I'm guessing I need libpython3-dev? idk...
2020-06-22 22:31:52 krixano Ok, yeah, that's what I needed
2020-06-22 22:32:05 @tomasino yugioh should have gemini support
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2020-06-22 22:36:13 @xq okay, markdown rendering starts to take shape :)
2020-06-22 22:36:19 @xq enough for today, gn8 ya'll
2020-06-22 22:37:17 @tomasino night
2020-06-22 23:15:25 ~tiwesdaeg neight
2020-06-22 23:15:58 ~tiwesdaeg it makes more sense when you think of it as german
2020-06-22 23:16:30 ~tiwesdaeg guten nacht = good night and 8 = acht
2020-06-22 23:18:11 makeworld New release of gemget has a whopping 42 binaries
2020-06-22 23:19:50 makeworld Could've had more, but I figured no one uses solaris, aix, illumos
2020-06-22 23:25:40 makeworld Although who uses Dragonfly BSD for that matter
2020-06-22 23:39:13 xj9 I was an illumos user until joyent shut down their public cloud
2020-06-22 23:39:49 xj9 I can do my own ports and upstream the patches though
2020-06-22 23:40:18 xj9 happens a lot on alpine too lol just my life I guess
2020-06-22 23:41:20 makeworld I can build it for you if you'll actually use it lol
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2020-06-23 00:11:07 ~tiwesdaeg makeworld: I did like less than a year ago
2020-06-23 00:51:19 makeworld Oh why>
2020-06-23 00:51:23 makeworld *?
2020-06-23 00:51:26 makeworld I don't know much about it
2020-06-23 01:32:22 ~tiwesdaeg for fun
2020-06-23 01:32:33 ~tiwesdaeg tilde.pink was using it originally
2020-06-23 01:32:46 ~tiwesdaeg it forked from freebsd back in the early 2000s
2020-06-23 01:36:08 yeti @end of freebsd4 time iirc
2020-06-23 02:21:01 makeworld Ah yeah I saw that on the wiki page
2020-06-23 02:21:17 makeworld Trying different OSes is not my idea of fun haha, I never got into that
2020-06-23 02:32:01 coleman I have downloaded the Deedum Gemini app for Android. It is cool and good.
2020-06-23 02:40:59 makeworld I'm happy to have an Android app, but I hope more styling is added. Also the font size is sorta large
2020-06-23 02:43:10 coleman i agree
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2020-06-23 06:31:07 ℹ Mode #gemini [+o julienxx] by ChanServ
2020-06-23 07:23:16 @xq heyhoh
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2020-06-23 08:10:51 dkibi heyo
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2020-06-23 08:18:23 @xq markdown rendering is getting better and better :)
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2020-06-23 08:24:16 dkibi one problem with the "I go to bed" plan yesterday is that I first have to do work before continuing debugging my problem xD
2020-06-23 08:24:31 @xq :D
2020-06-23 08:24:45 @xq i am working on Kristall on my commute
2020-06-23 08:34:04 dkibi still working from home
2020-06-23 08:34:18 @xq ah
2020-06-23 08:34:29 @xq yeah, i'm kinda happy that i can work from work again
2020-06-23 08:34:45 @xq makes stuff like "debugging" easier
2020-06-23 08:35:40 dkibi not much difference for me (sitting in front of a computer writing code), but I miss the social interactions
2020-06-23 08:35:47 login can a mathematician always work from home forever?
2020-06-23 08:36:21 dkibi the office is open, but heavily restricted, hence the social interactions don't happen anyway
2020-06-23 08:36:58 dkibi login: afaik modern mathematic builds strongly on collaboration which is somewhat limited when working from home
2020-06-23 08:37:07 @xq yeah, for pure code it's not much of a difference
2020-06-23 08:37:10 @xq but i'm working with hardware
2020-06-23 08:38:10 @xq hmm
2020-06-23 08:38:17 ⚡ xq is tempted to include the mercury protocol in kristall as well
2020-06-23 09:24:33 @julienxx hello
2020-06-23 09:25:39 @xq hey julienxx
2020-06-23 09:26:35 @julienxx what's up?
2020-06-23 09:27:48 @xq work work
2020-06-23 09:28:47 @julienxx same :/ don't have a lot of time for fun stuff these days
2020-06-23 09:31:13 @xq sad :(
2020-06-23 09:31:25 @xq How's Castor development going on?
2020-06-23 09:34:32 krixano I honestly don't care for the mercury protocol I don't think, but let me look at it again...
2020-06-23 09:34:36 @julienxx I must admit I feel a bit discouraged by the awesome work you make with kristall, too much to catch up :D
2020-06-23 09:35:44 @julienxx but I'll get back to it once I have some free time, I'm mostly focused on my plan 9 things these days
2020-06-23 09:35:51 @xq don#t see it as a discouragement, but as inspiration
2020-06-23 09:35:59 krixano One thing I don't like about the mercury protocol is no lang parameter
2020-06-23 09:36:01 @xq yeah, the P9 stuff is cool as well
2020-06-23 09:36:45 @julienxx xq: sure and a great one!
2020-06-23 09:37:06 @xq julienxx: it was you that got me working on Kristall in the first place
2020-06-23 09:37:11 krixano Also, the text/gemini stripped back syntax of just links and plain text is, meh. Once you get link syntax in there, then is it really *that* much easier to get rid of the other things?
2020-06-23 09:37:43 @julienxx it was mostly an experiment for me to play with GTK and Rust but those two are not a great mix regarding multithreading
2020-06-23 09:38:47 @xq krixano: yes, it is still easier to get rid of the rest
2020-06-23 09:38:59 krixano I don't think that's true
2020-06-23 09:39:00 @xq UI and multithreading isn't a great mix in the first place
2020-06-23 09:39:11 @julienxx GTK is not great at it, or more precisely it seems I'd have to do weird stuff to make it comply with Rust safety model
2020-06-23 09:39:12 @xq links are just "differently colored text" :D
2020-06-23 09:39:21 @xq Kristall is fully single-threaded atm
2020-06-23 09:39:30 krixano Right.... and what are bullets?
2020-06-23 09:39:44 @xq can be ignored in a text interface
2020-06-23 09:39:50 krixano Exactly
2020-06-23 09:39:51 @xq same for headings
2020-06-23 09:40:19 @xq the point about simplicity is: "why doing something if not doing something is already sufficient"
2020-06-23 09:40:26 @xq and that is true for everything except links
2020-06-23 09:40:43 krixano Because allowing for the optional ability to do something is useful
2020-06-23 09:40:45 @xq as links are interactive and will have create bad user experience if not handled by a client
2020-06-23 09:40:51 krixano But also, semantics is important.
2020-06-23 09:40:51 @xq which isn't true for everything else
2020-06-23 09:41:06 @xq <krixano> But also, semantics is important.
2020-06-23 09:41:15 @xq yes, but you can define semantics formally or informally
2020-06-23 09:42:17 @xq in this case, the informally defined semantics is fully sufficient
2020-06-23 09:42:39 krixano So like, the mercury spec would only really need to define the semantics, and allow for browsers to display things as they wish. This would even allow for completely ignoring headers and bullets. But it also allows for clients to do things with them that shouldn't be considered "unexpected"
2020-06-23 09:45:21 @xq but ask yourself the question: is that necessary or just a nice-to-have?
2020-06-23 09:45:31 @xq the design goal of mercury was "super-stripped down gemini"
2020-06-23 09:46:05 krixano It's necessary, because clients that do things to bullets and heading would otherwise be out-of-spec
2020-06-23 09:46:35 krixano Also, standardizing on semantics is pretty important for communication, otherwise people have no idea what you're talking about.
2020-06-23 09:46:49 @xq no, they wont
2020-06-23 09:46:56 @xq on both
2020-06-23 09:47:02 @xq see gopher
2020-06-23 09:47:13 @xq there isn't a spec for document contents
2020-06-23 09:47:26 krixano Ah, you mean all the gopher clients that don't actually do the things I'm talking about?
2020-06-23 09:47:27 @xq and it#s still perfectly possible to browser gopherspace without everything exploding
2020-06-23 09:47:38 @xq the point is:
2020-06-23 09:47:43 @xq if a client choses to do funky stuff
2020-06-23 09:47:49 krixano Yes, there *is* a spec for document contents... gophermaps.
2020-06-23 09:48:00 krixano gophermaps are documents
2020-06-23 09:50:35 @xq gophermaps is the only one
2020-06-23 09:50:48 @xq the rest is "text"
2020-06-23 09:50:54 krixano Correct.
2020-06-23 09:50:57 @xq (which was what i meant with "document")
2020-06-23 09:51:08 @xq what you want to do is prevent clients from doing stuff
2020-06-23 09:51:23 @xq een Kristall allows you to do out-of-spec stuff
2020-06-23 09:51:28 krixano Is that a question? No... that's not what I want to do
2020-06-23 09:51:54 @xq that's what i've understood ;)
2020-06-23 09:52:03 @xq because no spec → clients can do what they want
2020-06-23 09:52:07 @xq to the document
2020-06-23 09:52:13 krixano It can't be, when I've explicitly stated the exact opposite
2020-06-23 09:52:27 krixano > But it also allows for clients to do things with them that shouldn't be considered "unexpected"
2020-06-23 09:52:32 @xq yes, and that's what i'm talking about ;)
2020-06-23 09:52:42 @xq if a client does something "unexpected", that may be wanted
2020-06-23 09:52:56 krixano Exactly! And the spec should *allow* for that
2020-06-23 09:53:01 @xq highlighting *bold* and _underlined_ isn't in the gemini spec, still Kristall allows you to emphasise those things in a text
2020-06-23 09:53:12 @xq and the mercury spec allows that
2020-06-23 09:53:29 @xq it only tells you: "links are in the format of gemini, the rest is considered text"
2020-06-23 09:53:38 @xq and if people find a informal format spec
2020-06-23 09:53:40 krixano Well... do you remember the email thread about requiring space after bullet line?
2020-06-23 09:53:56 @xq yeah, sure
2020-06-23 09:54:00 @xq so? ;)
2020-06-23 09:54:13 krixano Do you have an eye twitch or something?
2020-06-23 09:54:31 @xq something being reasonable doesn't mean that it's *necessary*
2020-06-23 09:56:29 krixano The spec has to be modified to make sure clients could do the things they wanted to be able to do. That's all I'm saying
2020-06-23 09:57:13 krixano And I'm big on *explicitness*... so I'd rather a spec explicitly state that text can be rendered any which way is preferred rather than saying "the rest is text", because that implies it will be rendered exactly as text.
2020-06-23 09:57:52 @xq i think we just have different views on the world
2020-06-23 09:59:30 krixano What I would like, tbh, is just gemini without tls, because I find the text/gemini format useful. I mean, if you want a more stripped back version, then you can make a different format, imo
2020-06-23 09:59:49 krixano Like, text/mercury
2020-06-23 10:00:55 @julienxx encryption is a big plus for me, tls or something else
2020-06-23 10:01:11 @julienxx tls is available for every language so that's a plus
2020-06-23 10:02:42 styan Apparently TLS is not supported by plan9port.
2020-06-23 10:02:51 krixano But tls isn't available for older pubnix systems, like TOPS-20, Multics, etc.
2020-06-23 10:03:14 krixano And that's mainly why I would like gemini without tls.
2020-06-23 10:04:53 paper almost all gemini advantages for me would not be possible without tls or some other alternative - client certs, tofu, added security...
2020-06-23 10:06:52 krixano I think text/gemini, charset, and lang are good enough improvements over gopher that they could be their own protocol. I'm mostly just thinking about older systems that don't have tls
2020-06-23 10:09:12 CommunistWolf mm, tls is absolutely necessary para mi
2020-06-23 10:09:57 CommunistWolf or rather, robust encryption is
2020-06-23 10:10:57 @julienxx yeah gemimi is not suitable for old systems
2020-06-23 10:11:49 @julienxx styan: it's supported by 9front
2020-06-23 10:14:45 ⚡ styan is just annoyed at learning that *after* excitedly writing stuff
2020-06-23 10:20:15 @tomasino gemini://tilde.black/users/fox/journal/20200527-mercury-hells-no.gmi
2020-06-23 10:20:22 @tomasino I stand by this
2020-06-23 10:25:19 @tomasino There were other responses to solderpunk's post when he made it in a similar vein. It didn't have more than a blip on the ML
2020-06-23 10:25:22 dkibi I like it as a thought experiment, but if some people move towards this it would result in even less (original) content
2020-06-23 10:26:56 @tomasino I wish he hadn't written about it. It's going to linger out there and people will keep rediscovering it and want to chop up gemini, or use it to justify one step further and call it apollo
2020-06-23 10:27:34 krixano I think I sorta wish gemini didn't *require* tls, tbh
2020-06-23 10:28:32 @tomasino More than any other thing, that's the part that created Gemini to begin with
2020-06-23 10:28:48 @tomasino A growing sentiment the gopher needed tls
2020-06-23 10:30:22 krixano Yeah, I mean... the tls stuff is *amazing*, but I'd also like to be able to view open non-certificate gemini content on systems without tls.
2020-06-23 10:30:37 dkibi tomasino: I got the impression that the push to add features to gemini is much stronger than to get rid of features.
2020-06-23 10:30:57 @tomasino There's a camp in both
2020-06-23 10:31:18 @tomasino The ML has a more vocal "add" group
2020-06-23 10:31:47 dkibi in HTTP world there is certainly a (not very loud) discussion about this. esp. with wikipedia moving to tls. people argue that making it readable when you can't do tls (e.g. when it's blocked) is more important than protecting the content
2020-06-23 10:31:55 dkibi I think that's a valid argumen
2020-06-23 10:35:41 dkibi (one such space is ham radio btw.)
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2020-06-23 10:37:30 @julienxx krixano: you still can expose your gemini content on gopher with some tools or scripting for older systems. There is Agena for example https://tildegit.org/solderpunk/agena
2020-06-23 10:37:30 kensanata Oh... Thank you for web.tilde.chat! The office has stricter firewall rules, now.
2020-06-23 10:38:26 kensanata Hard to believe that there are 71 users on this channel.
2020-06-23 10:38:48 @tomasino It's popular for sure
2020-06-23 10:44:11 kensanata I still have the urge to write a good Wikipedia wikitext to plain text converter.
2020-06-23 10:44:19 kensanata to Gemini! converter...
2020-06-23 11:18:43 @xq <krixano> I'm mostly just thinking about older systems that don't have tls
2020-06-23 11:18:48 @xq TLS is a user-space concept
2020-06-23 11:19:06 @xq it does not depend on any OS facilities at all, but is a pure "data conversion"
2020-06-23 11:19:45 krixano Right.. but you still have to program a tls lib for these older systems
2020-06-23 11:20:52 krixano Afaik, there's no tls lib for TOPS-20, for example. Heck, there's barely TCP/IP, lol.... only if you set it up correct (I think the twenex system uses DEC instead of TCP/IP, but tfurrows' tops-20 system uses TCP/IP)
2020-06-23 11:21:07 @xq krixano: bearssl will work
2020-06-23 11:21:14 @xq it's pure C99, no OS dependencies
2020-06-23 11:21:19 @xq if you don't have C, good luck
2020-06-23 11:21:29 krixano Well, there's no C99, only C89
2020-06-23 11:21:49 @xq what CPU arch?
2020-06-23 11:22:37 krixano I believe it's the PDP-10
2020-06-23 11:22:43 @xq ah
2020-06-23 11:23:10 krixano Which is also a 36-bit system too
2020-06-23 11:23:23 @xq so?
2020-06-23 11:23:36 @xq the bitness only defines efficiency, not computing power
2020-06-23 11:23:49 krixano So... UTF-8 has to be translated. Luckilly there's already a thing for that.
2020-06-23 11:24:30 @xq it's one thing to use these old machines, it's another thing to port modern software to those
2020-06-23 11:24:52 krixano That's precisely my whole point, lol
2020-06-23 11:25:06 @xq so, we differ in view again
2020-06-23 11:25:21 @xq i don't think it's reasonable to port modern internet stuff to those machines
2020-06-23 11:25:33 @xq but maybe create solutions that allow interfacing
2020-06-23 11:25:43 krixano I don't know what you're even talking about. You're the one who suggested to try to port tls to the older systems
2020-06-23 11:25:44 @xq for example, just make a untls proxy
2020-06-23 11:25:53 @xq i said it's possible
2020-06-23 11:25:57 @xq i didn't say it's reasonable
2020-06-23 11:26:09 krixano Right, and neither did I
2020-06-23 11:26:23 @xq but there's a lot of funky stuff that isn't reasonable
2020-06-23 11:26:27 krixano In fact, I said the opposite, that having a non-tls gemini would be useful for precisely this reason
2020-06-23 11:28:30 krixano So, don't bring up something contrary to what I say and then say I'm saying the same thing as you after you all of a sudden go against everything you just suggested, lmao
2020-06-23 11:32:23 login so, notify that you stand corrected, krixano?
2020-06-23 11:32:48 krixano What was I wrong about login?
2020-06-23 11:33:11 login not you, but the person you told not to switch opinions surrepticiously
2020-06-23 11:33:49 login *surreptitiously
2020-06-23 11:34:29 krixano Standing corrected means you acknowledge the correction that someone else made.
2020-06-23 11:48:29 dkibi yeah I don't think many people write portable C
2020-06-23 11:48:54 dkibi it's so easy to rely on platform specifics
2020-06-23 11:49:19 `epochbot (could do text/gophermap over http if you wanted)
2020-06-23 11:49:34 login that points to the C standard having to be updated to include some platform specifics
2020-06-23 11:50:10 login http, while meant for hypertext, could be good for gopher too
2020-06-23 11:50:29 login the only standard should be the content encoding
2020-06-23 11:50:58 krixano There is a gopher client for TOPS-20, so at least we have that.
2020-06-23 11:51:34 `epochbot a gophermap (or text/gemini) is just a hypertext format, right?
2020-06-23 11:52:03 `epochbot don't /have/ to send documents of that type over only their native protocols
2020-06-23 11:52:39 @xq `epochbot: true
2020-06-23 11:52:49 @xq is text/x-gophermap a defined mime?
2020-06-23 11:53:19 `epochbot if you configure your computer to have it defined ;)
2020-06-23 11:53:23 krixano I guess technically gophermap and text/gemini are hypertext. Gophermaps are for the gopher menus. So if there's no gophermap file, then that's just autogenerated by the server. Gophermap isn't a verry good format, imo
2020-06-23 11:53:53 @xq it's still a format
2020-06-23 11:53:57 krixano Also, yeah, you can serve text/gemini over any protocol
2020-06-23 11:54:08 @xq i really need to start my client torture server :D
2020-06-23 11:54:24 kensanata I've described Gopher as hypertext on the document level; Gemini as hypertext on the paragraph level; HTML as hypertext on the word level...
2020-06-23 11:54:44 kensanata It's just different granularity of what you can link, but link you can.
2020-06-23 11:54:44 krixano Hm... interesting
2020-06-23 11:54:47 krixano That makes sense
2020-06-23 11:56:22 `epochbot would something that made URLs in plain-text be a hypertextifier?
2020-06-23 11:56:27 `epochbot hyperfier*?
2020-06-23 11:56:38 `epochbot made URLs clickable*
2020-06-23 11:58:34 `epochbot here's something that might be neat https://gist.github.com/egmontkob/eb114294efbcd5adb1944c9f3cb5feda
2020-06-23 11:58:47 kensanata Sure. You basically add them to the one big hypertext in the sky, the web
2020-06-23 11:58:54 `epochbot (for anyone making a terminal-based hypertext viewer?)
2020-06-23 11:59:39 kensanata I use Tilix and therefore I have this automatically...
2020-06-23 11:59:43 kensanata Or Emacs, of course.
2020-06-23 12:00:45 kensanata My problem is more: what if I'm looking at a gemini link in some other tool and click on it: how to I start a new terminal window, with my preferred gemini client, browsing said link?
2020-06-23 12:01:47 `epochbot I know of a way to do that. I think.
2020-06-23 12:02:55 `epochbot I made a .desktop file that passes all otherwise unhandled URIs to a script that's overly complicated but
2020-06-23 12:03:22 `epochbot you could just pass it directly to a script that just calls: x-terminam-emulator -e gemini-client "$1"
2020-06-23 12:03:34 `epochbot x-terminal-emulator*
2020-06-23 12:04:09 `epochbot not sure which other tools you might mean, but firefox will look through .desktop files
2020-06-23 12:04:53 `epochbot which I place into ~/.local/share/applications/, but that's pointed to by XDG_DATA_DIRS I think
2020-06-23 12:04:59 `epochbot yeah
2020-06-23 12:05:14 `epochbot so, you could pick any dir you want I guess
2020-06-23 12:17:11 ~tiwesdaeg heyo
2020-06-23 12:17:54 @julienxx hey tiwesdaeg
2020-06-23 12:18:18 ~tiwesdaeg another glorious gemini day
2020-06-23 12:18:21 kensanata `epochbot: oh, cool. Must try this!
2020-06-23 12:21:49 Sario528 So I discovered an issue. There's so much progress being made in gemini-verse that I'm having trouble keeping up with it all.
2020-06-23 12:22:29 Sario528 Of course, I probably shouldn't be trying to keep up with everything, but that's my nature
2020-06-23 12:24:21 `epochbot yeah. way to much.
2020-06-23 12:24:32 ⚡ `epochbot checks unread messages from mailing list
2020-06-23 12:25:32 `epochbot 900 unread or something
2020-06-23 12:25:50 Sario528 Jeez
2020-06-23 12:26:11 `epochbot some of that might be spam that got mixed in
2020-06-23 12:26:23 `epochbot maybe like, 50
2020-06-23 12:34:53 ~tiwesdaeg there are so many I just never click on
2020-06-23 12:35:18 ~tiwesdaeg I try to at least read each new [ANN] message
2020-06-23 12:39:28 @tomasino [ANN] tiwesdaeg is rad
2020-06-23 12:42:43 @julienxx tomasino: hope you're safe regarding the earthquakes in Island
2020-06-23 12:42:57 @tomasino thanks! we're headed directly into the epicenter in 1 week
2020-06-23 12:43:03 @tomasino so..., um... i hope it's settled by then
2020-06-23 12:43:32 @julienxx does it happen often usually?
2020-06-23 12:43:43 @tomasino nope
2020-06-23 12:44:10 @tomasino it's a very seizmically active area, but that's building up to a big quake soon
2020-06-23 12:44:11 ~tiwesdaeg I like how rad is back in fashion
2020-06-23 12:44:20 @tomasino estimates here are likely a 7.0+ this week
2020-06-23 12:44:31 @julienxx damn
2020-06-23 12:44:32 @tomasino it shouldn't set off any volcanos in the area, though
2020-06-23 12:44:51 @tomasino there will be some rock slides, but the biggest danger is to the coasts when it triggers a tidal wave
2020-06-23 12:45:09 @tomasino our family trip up north is next tues-sat
2020-06-23 12:45:24 @tomasino and we'll be doing some whale watching while we're there. awesome timing
2020-06-23 12:45:41 ~tiwesdaeg what type of whales?
2020-06-23 12:45:47 @julienxx surfing whales on tidal waves, rad!
2020-06-23 12:45:47 ~tiwesdaeg right whales?
2020-06-23 12:46:18 ~tiwesdaeg does Iceland have any tidewater glaciers?
2020-06-23 12:46:32 @tomasino yep
2020-06-23 12:46:46 @tomasino there are 2, i think
2020-06-23 12:47:04 @tomasino minke, blue, humpback
2020-06-23 12:50:08 ~tiwesdaeg those are fun to see by boat
2020-06-23 12:50:32 ⚡ tiwesdaeg misses Alaska
2020-06-23 12:53:16 ▬▬▶ rb100 has joined #gemini
2020-06-23 13:33:38 @xq tomasino: thanks for watering my plant
2020-06-23 13:33:40 ℹ `epochbot is now known as derpface
2020-06-23 13:33:47 ℹ derpface is now known as epoch
2020-06-23 13:33:55 @tomasino my pleasure
2020-06-23 13:34:03 ⚡ tomasino also misses alaska
2020-06-23 13:35:30 ⚡ xq has never seen a whale
2020-06-23 13:35:56 @tomasino they're pretty awesome
2020-06-23 13:58:46 @xq i can imagine
2020-06-23 13:59:52 kensanata I went whale watching and that one moment I switched sides and got a little seasick it jumped out of the water and I missed it.
2020-06-23 14:00:26 kensanata That single moment of disappointment in my ability to move gracefully around a boat probably cost me around $100.
2020-06-23 14:07:32 @tomasino haha
2020-06-23 14:07:36 @tomasino that's horrible
2020-06-23 14:07:38 @tomasino and a great story
2020-06-23 14:22:27 makeworld The mercury post on the mailing list is too bad. TLS makes Gemini stand out, I like it for that
2020-06-23 14:23:00 companion_cube stand out from Gopher, you mean?
2020-06-23 14:29:24 makeworld Just in general, but that too yeah
2020-06-23 14:29:34 makeworld Because it's mandatory
2020-06-23 14:30:28 companion_cube I guess it makes it more real world, but less simple :p
2020-06-23 14:31:48 @xq makeworld: i like both ideas. the stripped-down mercury is perfect for embedded stuff
2020-06-23 14:32:07 @xq but having TLS in gemini and using it for more than just "yeah, that's the server i seek" is just awesome <3
2020-06-23 14:37:08 @julienxx I still don't see the appeal of mercury compared to gopher which has already a lot of clients and servers. Simpler syntax?
2020-06-23 14:37:55 makeworld Mercury might be good for embedded stuff yeah, but I think usage that way will be rare, lots of embedded devices will just use custom tiny protocols. And I don't think Kristall will be embedded either
2020-06-23 14:38:31 @xq julienxx: mercury provides precise content type information
2020-06-23 14:39:24 @julienxx Ah yes that’s a good point
2020-06-23 14:41:18 rb100 has quit (Client exited)
2020-06-23 14:42:59 @xq gopher is just
2020-06-23 14:43:05 @xq "lol, that's smething resembling an image file"
2020-06-23 14:44:44 @julienxx that's enough for personal usage I guess, wouldn't you use something a little more efficient for embedded stuff like a binary protocol though?
2020-06-23 14:45:33 @xq nah
2020-06-23 14:45:45 @xq most embedded stuff uses HTTP+JSON nowadays *screams*
2020-06-23 14:46:02 @xq but yeah, it's better to have highly compact binary protocols
2020-06-23 14:46:12 @xq still, a header transfer like mercury is pretty nice
2020-06-23 14:46:20 @xq because it makes stuff compatible
2020-06-23 14:46:27 companion_cube if you have an embedded device you want binary protocols, right?
2020-06-23 14:47:03 @xq it depends on the use case
2020-06-23 14:47:22 @xq do you want to have a 1<->many connection or a many<->many connection
2020-06-23 14:48:27 @xq we have mixed-mode protocol in our company
2020-06-23 14:48:31 @xq most stuff is text based
2020-06-23 14:48:34 companion_cube what kind of embedded stuff do you do?
2020-06-23 14:49:00 @xq heater controls, industrial machine controls, ...
2020-06-23 14:49:40 @xq for example, setting configuration values is done via a UDP text protocol
2020-06-23 15:09:54 kensanata Before Gemini came around I was toying around with a simple text file server where the client was expected to follow links. https://alexschroeder.ch/wiki/2019-06-18_A_Simple_Text_Server and https://alexschroeder.ch/wiki/2019-06-19_A_Simple_Text_Client
2020-06-23 15:10:32 kensanata I guess it was the worst of both worlds: line wrapping still unsolved, and no MIME types.
2020-06-23 15:22:10 epoch I've been doing a 3D file format where you can follow links.
2020-06-23 15:22:57 epoch but it is also a protocol kind of.
2020-06-23 15:27:46 makeworld has quit (Ping timeout: 120 seconds)
2020-06-23 15:45:35 @xq epoch: tell me more!
2020-06-23 15:46:50 epoch :)
2020-06-23 15:47:16 epoch um, so. it is a line-based file format.
2020-06-23 15:47:32 epoch or protocol
2020-06-23 15:47:34 epoch or something
2020-06-23 15:48:29 epoch the viewer gets input lines like: a-shape-group-name addshape 2 4 0 0 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 0
2020-06-23 15:48:37 epoch to add a square of color "2"
2020-06-23 15:49:15 epoch and "a-shape-group-name move 0 0 0"
2020-06-23 15:49:36 epoch white-space is insignificant, I just use it to make groupings easier to read.
2020-06-23 15:49:50 epoch (except for newline whitespace?)
2020-06-23 15:50:08 @xq okay, so i can build, destroy and animate 3D shapes?
2020-06-23 15:50:18 epoch yep
2020-06-23 15:50:25 epoch and when you move the camera
2020-06-23 15:50:34 epoch it outputs the same type of move commands to stdout
2020-06-23 15:50:51 epoch and when you click on a shape, it outputs another line to stdout
2020-06-23 15:51:05 epoch like "epoch action a-shape-group-name"
2020-06-23 15:51:39 epoch and an example wrapper for it I use most of the time will notice group-names in the format of <group-name> and treat them as URIs to be launched
2020-06-23 15:51:58 @xq interesting
2020-06-23 15:52:02 epoch so, I have a network map that I can use to see BGP peerings
2020-06-23 15:52:06 @xq is there a spec for that? *rofl*
2020-06-23 15:52:11 epoch and then click on each ASN to launch a whois URI
2020-06-23 15:52:35 epoch there is not.
2020-06-23 15:53:17 @xq :D
2020-06-23 15:53:19 epoch just a prototype
2020-06-23 15:53:34 ⚡ epoch checks oldest commit in the repo
2020-06-23 15:53:37 @xq it would be a funny thing to use the gemini streaming with such a 3D environment
2020-06-23 15:53:43 ⚡ xq has stupid ideas
2020-06-23 15:53:54 epoch I have a hackvr file, and it'd work
2020-06-23 15:54:10 epoch I'd have to write a short handler script for hackvr+gemini://
2020-06-23 15:54:16 @xq what's hackvr?
2020-06-23 15:54:24 epoch oh, the thing I was just describing
2020-06-23 15:54:40 epoch I was wanting to make something I could port gophervr into at one point
2020-06-23 15:55:14 epoch gemini can do a continuous stream, but only in one direction.
2020-06-23 15:55:21 @xq ah!
2020-06-23 15:55:44 epoch the usual way I do hackvr server is to just have it keep a connection open over plain tcp or ssh
2020-06-23 15:55:50 @xq hehe
2020-06-23 15:55:58 epoch and then the actions can be sent back to a server-side program
2020-06-23 15:56:12 @xq is it meant for actual VR interaction or just a "classic 3D application"?
2020-06-23 15:56:35 @xq it would be kinda crazy to have some 3D "internet"
2020-06-23 15:56:36 epoch the actual VR interaction will require me to get better VR hardware
2020-06-23 15:56:59 epoch I /did/ build it with the ability to do split-screen from the get-go
2020-06-23 15:57:03 @xq ah
2020-06-23 15:57:19 epoch and it seems to work alright in a cheap phone-based headset
2020-06-23 15:57:36 epoch which I was able to test because of an X11 server app I found for android
2020-06-23 15:57:56 @xq haha WHAT?! :D
2020-06-23 15:57:58 @xq i need that app
2020-06-23 15:58:17 epoch https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=x.org.server&hl=en_US
2020-06-23 15:58:32 epoch you can supposedly use the gyros in the phone as mouse controls
2020-06-23 15:58:36 epoch but I don't have a phone with gyros
2020-06-23 15:58:43 @xq NICE
2020-06-23 15:58:47 epoch if I did, I'd have gotten that working
2020-06-23 15:58:50 @xq yeah, i'm kinda spoiled
2020-06-23 15:58:55 @xq i have a Oculus Quest at home
2020-06-23 15:58:58 @xq it's love <3
2020-06-23 15:59:31 epoch I got some walmart-brand headset from the clearance isle for $1
2020-06-23 16:00:11 @xq i have some as well
2020-06-23 16:00:15 @xq they're totaly okay to work with
2020-06-23 16:00:30 epoch I made hackvr able to use /dev/input/event inputs from a computer so you can only use X11 for display if you want
2020-06-23 16:00:52 ▬▬▶ makeworld has joined #gemini
2020-06-23 16:01:11 epoch and at one point I had framebuffer support working
2020-06-23 16:01:21 epoch so you could run it without an X server
2020-06-23 16:01:39 @xq neat
2020-06-23 16:01:46 epoch oldest commit is from Oct 18th 2016
2020-06-23 16:01:48 @xq i'm intrigued by the idea of streaming geometry
2020-06-23 16:01:58 epoch the fun part
2020-06-23 16:02:06 @xq it pretty much sounds like you made streaming wavefront obj
2020-06-23 16:02:10 epoch is you can use normal shell tools for playing with it
2020-06-23 16:02:18 epoch like, randomly sort them
2020-06-23 16:02:18 @xq yeah i got that already
2020-06-23 16:02:25 @xq that's funky
2020-06-23 16:02:26 epoch and then slow it down
2020-06-23 16:02:33 @xq xargs + grep → visiting gemini links :D
2020-06-23 16:02:34 epoch and watch each random triangle appear
2020-06-23 16:03:14 makeworld What's this?
2020-06-23 16:03:22 epoch I also made a calendar program in it
2020-06-23 16:03:28 @xq epoch is talking about a crazy 3D application he made
2020-06-23 16:03:33 @xq and i'm like 150% hooked atm
2020-06-23 16:03:59 epoch https://github.com/kkabrams/hackvr
2020-06-23 16:04:10 epoch I had some videos up on a peertube, but they're down for repairs atm
2020-06-23 16:05:09 epoch I recently added the ability to have one group be a subgroup of another
2020-06-23 16:05:10 makeworld Got any screenshots or something? I'm intrigued but confused what it actually does
2020-06-23 16:05:18 epoch I have a bunch somewhere. one sec.
2020-06-23 16:06:07 @xq i will check that out later!
2020-06-23 16:06:43 epoch (merp. why didn't I tag my mastodon posts)
2020-06-23 16:07:49 epoch oh, I wrote a pretty bad terminal emulator for it using libtmt
2020-06-23 16:08:09 epoch but I didn't let myself do "text" as a first-class type
2020-06-23 16:08:18 epoch so it is using a vector-font I made
2020-06-23 16:08:19 makeworld Grr all the anti-TLS posts
2020-06-23 16:08:56 epoch https://tilde.zone/system/media_attachments/files/001/173/174/original/528a31484838c00b.png
2020-06-23 16:09:04 @xq epoch: does hackvr support textures and texts?
2020-06-23 16:09:13 epoch no textures, no text
2020-06-23 16:09:20 epoch unless you count the vector-text
2020-06-23 16:09:24 @xq okay, so only shapes or text-shaped shapes :D
2020-06-23 16:09:32 epoch yeah
2020-06-23 16:09:57 epoch figured if text was some other protocol's problem
2020-06-23 16:10:02 epoch s/if /
2020-06-23 16:10:08 epoch s/if //*
2020-06-23 16:10:58 epoch I've written some stuff to send it over IRC to help with many-to-many
2020-06-23 16:11:59 epoch like, just an IRC bot that will only do a single channel as stdio that gets ran with hackvr as a coprocess
2020-06-23 16:12:24 makeworld Uh what is that??
2020-06-23 16:12:41 makeworld I'm confused what I'm looking at lol
2020-06-23 16:13:07 epoch the screenshot is a bug
2020-06-23 16:13:28 makeworld Oh, what is it supposed to do?
2020-06-23 16:13:32 epoch guess I should link to posts...
2020-06-23 16:13:46 epoch it is supposed to be a terminal inside a 3d space
2020-06-23 16:13:57 epoch https://tilde.zone/@epoch/104052094005184590
2020-06-23 16:13:57 companion_cube there's ii that does that iirc
2020-06-23 16:14:02 companion_cube one "file" per channel
2020-06-23 16:14:23 epoch https://tilde.zone/@epoch/104041446440932567
2020-06-23 16:14:32 @xq companion_cube: oh yeah that's awesome
2020-06-23 16:14:45 epoch yeah, could use that too
2020-06-23 16:14:47 epoch :)
2020-06-23 16:15:03 epoch the irc bot I did was just for ease of plumbing over IRC
2020-06-23 16:15:11 makeworld Hmm
2020-06-23 16:15:31 kensanata has quit (Client exited)
2020-06-23 16:15:37 epoch https://tilde.zone/@epoch/104035328858446837
2020-06-23 16:16:38 epoch the radio interface actually controls the music on my desktop using mpc talking to an close-enough-to-copatible mpd-like shell-script
2020-06-23 16:17:22 @xq epoch: i assume the only "interface" to hackvr is the text stream?
2020-06-23 16:17:44 @xq so, speccing out the text stream would allow displays/tools to be compatible
2020-06-23 16:17:54 epoch nah, for ease of use you control the camera using WASD and the mouse
2020-06-23 16:18:55 @xq well, yeah
2020-06-23 16:19:00 epoch oh, then yeah
2020-06-23 16:19:03 @xq but the geometry stream/update
2020-06-23 16:19:15 @xq i would totally be in on implementing a hackvr client
2020-06-23 16:20:23 epoch then maybe I should be writing more stuff into text files instead of source-code
2020-06-23 16:20:38 @xq D:
2020-06-23 16:20:49 @xq well, you can always export into a file instead of hackvr
2020-06-23 16:20:57 @xq also another question: is that only line art you draw?
2020-06-23 16:21:01 @xq or also filled polygons?
2020-06-23 16:21:57 epoch atm the polygons are filled with lighting based on distance because I haven't gotten around to implementing proper lighting
2020-06-23 16:22:10 epoch they're filled by default
2020-06-23 16:22:29 epoch I was thinking of adding "invisible" shapes the other night
2020-06-23 16:22:30 @xq okay, sounds great :)
2020-06-23 16:22:44 ⚡ xq would love to hack some Zig again
2020-06-23 16:22:48 epoch so you could have cubes linked by lines that don't display...
2020-06-23 16:22:49 @xq and this sounds like a perfect project for that
2020-06-23 16:23:33 epoch oh, I use SRV records for finding the port for plaintext hackvr
2020-06-23 16:23:42 @xq hm, interesting
2020-06-23 16:24:00 epoch # dig -t SRV _hackvr._tcp.thebackupbox.net +short
2020-06-23 16:24:00 epoch 0 100 1337 thebackupbox.net.
2020-06-23 16:24:01 @xq i would go with a transport layer agnostic way though
2020-06-23 16:24:13 epoch yeah
2020-06-23 16:24:22 epoch I use netcat for doing the networking
2020-06-23 16:24:24 epoch or socat
2020-06-23 16:24:26 epoch or ssh
2020-06-23 16:24:40 epoch just saying, if you plan on adding wrapper scripts to do any of the fancier stuff
2020-06-23 16:25:52 @xq i would start by building a good, transport- and rendering-agnostic library
2020-06-23 16:30:13 epoch https://thebackupbox.net/cgi-bin/pageview.cgi?page=hackvr
2020-06-23 16:30:40 epoch I think that page might be missing a bit of stuff, but gives a longish list of lines.
2020-06-23 16:31:24 @xq hehe
2020-06-23 16:31:33 @xq i'm off for a while, have to get home :D
2020-06-23 16:31:39 @xq but i will come back at you!
2020-06-23 16:31:39 epoch kk
2020-06-23 17:21:37 ℹ epoch is now known as asdf
2020-06-23 17:21:47 ℹ asdf is now known as epoch
2020-06-23 17:22:26 ℹ epoch is now known as epoch_
2020-06-23 17:28:28 xfnw has quit (Connection closed)
2020-06-23 17:28:38 ▬▬▶ xfnw has joined #gemini
2020-06-23 18:22:20 xfnw has quit (The TLS connection was non-properly terminated.)
2020-06-23 18:23:01 ▬▬▶ xfnw has joined #gemini
2020-06-23 19:06:06 @xq re
2020-06-23 19:06:10 @xq that was a long way home
2020-06-23 20:06:53 ▬▬▶ acdw has joined #gemini
2020-06-23 20:07:54 makeworld Bookmarks in Amfora are almost done!
2020-06-23 20:08:14 @tomasino Huzzah
2020-06-23 20:08:42 acdw aww yuss
2020-06-23 20:08:46 makeworld :)
2020-06-23 20:08:46 acdw good job makeworld
2020-06-23 20:08:56 makeworld Wait until you see it! lol
2020-06-23 20:08:56 acdw i still need to do that for bollux
2020-06-23 20:08:59 acdw :D
2020-06-23 20:09:08 makeworld I'm unsure whether to make a new release after that, or whether there should be more
2020-06-23 20:09:21 makeworld But I'm thinking I should release
2020-06-23 20:09:30 acdw DO IT
2020-06-23 20:09:35 acdw releasing is the best
2020-06-23 20:09:40 makeworld Ha, thanks
2020-06-23 20:09:43 acdw look at firefox, chrom(e|ium)
2020-06-23 20:09:53 acdw all the best browsers release a billion times
2020-06-23 20:10:10 acdw you want to have the best browser don't you :P
2020-06-23 20:10:24 makeworld Haha fair enough
2020-06-23 20:10:28 ▬▬▶ kensanata has joined #gemini
2020-06-23 20:20:46 @julienxx Made this gemini://typed-hole.org/tilde_news/index.gmi
2020-06-23 20:21:05 @julienxx ben: if you're interested in hosting it I have a branch for you :)
2020-06-23 20:21:42 @ben julienxx: lol sure!
2020-06-23 20:22:13 @ben would be great
2020-06-23 20:24:19 makeworld It still says "on gopher" but nice
2020-06-23 20:24:24 makeworld I didn't know about tilde.news
2020-06-23 20:25:29 @tomasino It's a fun place
2020-06-23 20:25:39 @ben it's a lobste.rs for tilde things
2020-06-23 20:25:48 makeworld Ah
2020-06-23 20:25:50 @tomasino Check out the services section of tildeverse.org
2020-06-23 20:25:54 @tomasino Lots of good stuff
2020-06-23 20:26:10 @ben we have ltos of things
2020-06-23 20:28:14 acdw I like tilde.news!
2020-06-23 20:28:33 acdw hey peaking of....do any of yall think you could send me an invite? IDK what I need to do
2020-06-23 20:29:39 @tomasino What's your email
2020-06-23 20:30:02 acdw acdw@acdw.net
2020-06-23 20:30:12 @julienxx ben: it’s the gemini_tilde_news branch on the gophsters project I made for the gopher mirror https://github.com/julienXX/gophsters I’ll clean the typo tomorrow
2020-06-23 20:30:14 acdw or acdw@tilde.institute if you need a tilde email
2020-06-23 20:30:28 @tomasino One sec
2020-06-23 20:30:38 acdw julienxx: Also -- I noticed that < and > are rendered as < and > in the comments
2020-06-23 20:31:21 acdw Thanks tomasino!
2020-06-23 20:31:53 @tomasino Sent
2020-06-23 20:32:11 epoch_ int main() { /* todo: add --version */ return 0; } /* RELEASE 1.0! */
2020-06-23 20:32:36 makeworld You did it!
2020-06-23 20:32:40 @tomasino Well, it doesn't crash
2020-06-23 20:32:45 @tomasino No memory leaks
2020-06-23 20:32:52 @tomasino Good work
2020-06-23 20:33:04 epoch_ int main() { /* todo: add --version */ return 0; } /* RELEASE 2.0! */ ; git commit -m 'fixed version number'
2020-06-23 20:33:48 @tomasino Why not calver?
2020-06-23 20:33:49 yeti is "floating version number" the other type?
2020-06-23 20:34:59 yeti I thinkl I need a random version number somewhere...
2020-06-23 20:46:04 epoch_ I'm doing fibonacci versioning
2020-06-23 20:46:47 epoch_ well, adding the next fibonacci number to get the next version +1, +1, +2, +3, +5...
2020-06-23 20:47:21 epoch_ which is the same pattern but I get to pretend like 1 2 was the start of it instead of 1 1
2020-06-23 20:47:28 acdw oh that's awesome
2020-06-23 20:48:07 epoch_ wonder what large fibonacci numbers look like encoded in utf-8
2020-06-23 20:49:06 epoch_ or could do pi versioning
2020-06-23 20:49:07 epoch_ 3
2020-06-23 20:49:09 epoch_ 3.1
2020-06-23 20:49:11 epoch_ 3.14
2020-06-23 20:49:15 acdw I think ... latex does it that way?
2020-06-23 20:49:17 @xq epoch_: that's already taken by latex
2020-06-23 20:49:20 acdw lol
2020-06-23 20:49:21 @xq use e versioning
2020-06-23 20:49:24 epoch_ was about to say
2020-06-23 20:49:24 @xq or sqrt(2) versioning
2020-06-23 20:49:27 epoch_ I think 'e' is taken too
2020-06-23 20:49:28 acdw e is ... tex?
2020-06-23 20:49:54 acdw no pi is tex, my bad
2020-06-23 20:50:19 acdw oh you could do pi fractional versioning
2020-06-23 20:50:24 epoch_ MetaFont has 'e'
2020-06-23 20:50:27 epoch_ TeX is pi
2020-06-23 20:50:32 epoch_ https://texfaq.org/FAQ-TeXfuture
2020-06-23 20:51:42 acdw ah there it is
2020-06-23 20:51:56 epoch_ I was thinking zeno's paradox versioning first
2020-06-23 20:52:01 epoch_ but 1 2 didn't fit the pattern
2020-06-23 20:52:15 acdw haha
2020-06-23 20:52:30 acdw 0, 1/2, 3/4, 7/8, 15/16, ...
2020-06-23 20:52:39 epoch_ ^
2020-06-23 20:52:40 epoch_ :)
2020-06-23 20:52:54 acdw [3; 7, 15, 1, 292, 1, 1, ...] <- continuing fraction notation of pi
2020-06-23 20:53:10 epoch_ ZENO IS GETTING SO CLOSE TO VERSION 1
2020-06-23 20:53:17 epoch_ guess I'd have to name the program zeno.
2020-06-23 20:54:01 acdw hahahaha yes
2020-06-23 20:54:05 acdw or take a look at https://oeis.org/
2020-06-23 20:54:27 acdw and just pick one of them
2020-06-23 20:54:38 acdw OR each major version will be increasing sequence indexes
2020-06-23 20:54:46 epoch_ prime versioning
2020-06-23 20:54:51 acdw and minor versions will be the numbers within those indeces
2020-06-23 20:54:54 acdw yes primes
2020-06-23 20:55:33 acdw OH or name versions after Mozart's K numbers
2020-06-23 20:55:48 acdw https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%B6chel_catalogue
2020-06-23 20:55:48 epoch_ hash of the contents of the project versioning
2020-06-23 20:55:56 @tomasino Endless scream versioning? "AH, AAH, AAAH, AAAAH"
2020-06-23 20:56:03 epoch_ :)
2020-06-23 20:56:04 acdw So like, version 1 is "Minuet in G for Piano"
2020-06-23 20:56:13 acdw or laugh versioning: HAAAHAHAHHHAHHAAA
2020-06-23 20:56:35 acdw Semantic versioning where H is a dot and A counts the numbers
2020-06-23 20:56:44 acdw HAHAAHA = 1.2.1
2020-06-23 20:56:47 acdw easy peasy
2020-06-23 20:57:03 acdw I do just like the hash of the contents as well
2020-06-23 20:57:04 epoch_ Il1IIl11Il versioning?
2020-06-23 20:57:06 epoch_ I dunno.
2020-06-23 20:57:07 acdw HA
2020-06-23 20:57:19 acdw isn't the hash of the contents basically git revision versioning?
2020-06-23 20:57:21 @tomasino The version number is a Quine of the program
2020-06-23 20:57:28 acdw oh that'd be good
2020-06-23 20:58:06 epoch_ number of sleepness nights comtemplating death as version number
2020-06-23 20:58:16 epoch_ +1
2020-06-23 20:58:21 epoch_ :>
2020-06-23 20:58:39 acdw number of days since last release
2020-06-23 20:58:55 @tomasino Oooh
2020-06-23 20:58:59 @tomasino I like that one
2020-06-23 20:59:09 epoch_ phrack would be on a /really/ high version number
2020-06-23 20:59:26 acdw :D
2020-06-23 20:59:26 epoch_ inb4 phrack released the first issue in ... how many years? just to fuck that joke over.
2020-06-23 20:59:26 @tomasino There was an old lady who swallowed a fly versioning
2020-06-23 20:59:30 ⚡ epoch_ checks
2020-06-23 20:59:48 acdw version fly, spider, cat, dog, goat, cow, horse, ded
2020-06-23 20:59:52 acdw hm not many versions
2020-06-23 21:00:02 @tomasino Have to keep going
2020-06-23 21:00:05 epoch_ (nah, still last release of May 6 2016)
2020-06-23 21:00:33 @tomasino ded, brains, baseball bats, porn stars...
2020-06-23 21:04:02 ⚡ tiwesdaeg kicks cgi
2020-06-23 21:04:14 ~tiwesdaeg it's driving me nuts today
2020-06-23 21:04:39 @tomasino Sorry dood
2020-06-23 21:07:29 ~tiwesdaeg of course, it works on one host and not another
2020-06-23 21:08:11 ~tiwesdaeg only difference is host OS
2020-06-23 21:08:58 ⚡ tiwesdaeg throws cgi at tomasino
2020-06-23 21:09:05 ⚡ tomasino eats it
2020-06-23 21:10:07 ~tiwesdaeg gemini://libraryoferis.org/cgi-bin/cal.py
2020-06-23 21:10:14 ~tiwesdaeg that's not where I wanted it to be
2020-06-23 21:11:00 ~tiwesdaeg I tried wrapping the python program in a shell script
2020-06-23 21:11:04 ~tiwesdaeg that didn't work either
2020-06-23 21:12:04 epoch_ same versions of python?
2020-06-23 21:12:33 ~tiwesdaeg fixed it
2020-06-23 21:13:16 ~tiwesdaeg subprocess.check_output
2020-06-23 21:13:37 ~tiwesdaeg I'm using that to run a command line program and then process the text
2020-06-23 21:13:53 ~tiwesdaeg I had to give the full path in python to get it to work as a cgi script
2020-06-23 21:14:02 ~tiwesdaeg it runs fine from the command line without it
2020-06-23 21:14:32 ~tiwesdaeg gemini://cal.discordian.de/
2020-06-23 21:15:03 epoch_ ah, missing a bit of PATH probably
2020-06-23 21:16:40 ⚡ wgreenhouse starts downloading one of the mixtapes at gemini://konpeito.media/ and discovers that elpher is just naively copying the mixtape into an emacs buffer in memory before asking me if I want to write it to a file :3
2020-06-23 21:16:50 acdw lol
2020-06-23 21:17:08 wgreenhouse it's very simple elisp, easy to see what it's doing
2020-06-23 21:17:11 wgreenhouse but also ot
2020-06-23 21:17:15 wgreenhouse it's very simple elisp
2020-06-23 21:17:19 wgreenhouse for good or ill
2020-06-23 21:32:56 makeworld Hey, thanks for reminding me there's a new one!
2020-06-23 21:33:12 makeworld Listening to konpeito while coding Gemini software just feels right
2020-06-23 21:34:21 wgreenhouse it worked btw, in case any of you were hanging on with bated breath :D
2020-06-23 21:34:46 wgreenhouse makeworld: this is really cool; I found it because it was linked from someone's page that appeared on capcom
2020-06-23 21:34:58 makeworld Konpeito? Yeah it's great
2020-06-23 21:35:05 wgreenhouse yes
2020-06-23 21:35:42 acdw oh i still have to download it
2020-06-23 21:41:35 kensanata Fixed up my Wikipedia proxy a bit... gemini://localhost:1965/text/en/Project_Gemini and gemini://localhost:1965/full/en/Project_Gemini
2020-06-23 21:42:38 acdw localhost huh?
2020-06-23 21:42:43 kensanata haha
2020-06-23 21:43:02 acdw looks good!
2020-06-23 21:43:19 kensanata gemini://alexschroeder.ch:1967/text/en/Project_Gemini and gemini://alexschroeder.ch:1967/full/en/Project_Gemini
2020-06-23 21:43:54 kensanata And with that it's time for bed! Well, maybe prepare some bread dough and then bed...
2020-06-23 21:44:09 acdw oh that does look good
2020-06-23 21:44:11 acdw mmm bread dough
2020-06-23 21:44:12 acdw have fun!
2020-06-23 21:44:17 kensanata Thanks
2020-06-23 21:44:25 kensanata has quit (The TLS connection was non-properly terminated.)
2020-06-23 21:55:49 makeworld Nice
2020-06-23 21:56:18 makeworld I like that mirror, looks nice and clean
2020-06-23 21:56:38 makeworld You don't get inline links, but that's a choice that makes sense
2020-06-23 21:56:47 makeworld And there's always the other mirror for another style
2020-06-23 21:58:21 acdw I love how much *style* goes into geminispace, even though we have such little options for it
2020-06-23 21:58:22 makeworld Also that's a good test case for my port storing in my TOFU db, thanks
2020-06-23 21:58:29 makeworld Haha yeah
2020-06-23 21:58:41 acdw oh shoot, that's a good point makeworld
2020-06-23 21:58:57 acdw but yeah it speaks to the expressive power of restrictions
2020-06-23 21:58:59 makeworld Yep, didn't realize until I read a pdf solderpunk sent
2020-06-23 21:59:01 acdw like oulipo
2020-06-23 21:59:05 acdw oh?
2020-06-23 21:59:21 makeworld Also make sure you're hashing SubjectPublicKeyInfo and not the whole cert if possible
2020-06-23 21:59:26 makeworld Yeah in the TOFU threead
2020-06-23 21:59:35 acdw oh good point -- I'll have to re read that thread
2020-06-23 21:59:40 acdw okay I gotta go get on the desk
2020-06-23 21:59:41 acdw o/
2020-06-23 21:59:46 acdw has quit (Client exited)
2020-06-23 21:59:47 @tomasino Mercury should require oulipo style
2020-06-23 21:59:47 makeworld https://rp.delaat.net/2012-2013/p56/report.pdf
2020-06-23 22:00:04 @tomasino No e's make it easier to transport
2020-06-23 22:01:08 makeworld Heh
2020-06-23 22:01:23 makeworld Better for embedded devices that everyone seems to be using all the time!
2020-06-23 22:01:49 @tomasino Or something
2020-06-23 22:02:09 @tomasino Embedded devices could use some better transport security, honestly
2020-06-23 22:02:24 makeworld Why not
2020-06-23 22:02:49 @tomasino I have a friend from high school that works add a security consultant now specializing in embedded systems and the security is a joke
2020-06-23 22:03:00 @tomasino In, not add
2020-06-23 22:03:07 @tomasino Gah
2020-06-23 22:03:10 @tomasino As.
2020-06-23 22:03:11 makeworld IoT, the S stands for security
2020-06-23 22:03:12 makeworld As they say
2020-06-23 22:03:17 @tomasino Yeah
2020-06-23 22:03:31 makeworld Or IoS, where it stands for shit
2020-06-23 22:03:32 makeworld Lol
2020-06-23 22:03:42 @tomasino So many systems have passwords hard coded in rom
2020-06-23 22:03:49 @tomasino It's ridiculous
2020-06-23 22:03:53 makeworld Yikes really?
2020-06-23 22:03:57 @tomasino Yes
2020-06-23 22:04:01 makeworld Wow
2020-06-23 22:04:13 @tomasino Let me find one of his talks
2020-06-23 22:07:17 @tomasino https://youtu.be/p-qrKtDhyeg
2020-06-23 22:10:40 ▬▬▶ acdw has joined #gemini
2020-06-23 22:10:47 acdw comin at you live from the helpdesk
2020-06-23 22:10:53 acdw *refernce desk
2020-06-23 22:11:17 acdw anyway I have to look up the TLS business
2020-06-23 22:12:05 acdw do you know if the mailing list archive includes attachments?
2020-06-23 22:12:06 @julienxx Reading some nice prose on my smart fridge thanks to mercury, what a dream ^^
2020-06-23 22:13:10 @julienxx I don’t recall having seen an attachment on the ML
2020-06-23 22:13:22 acdw hmmm
2020-06-23 22:13:40 acdw smart fridge mercuratic verse does sound nice tho
2020-06-23 22:14:36 @ben julienxx: hmm would it be possible to generate both gopher and gemini at the same time
2020-06-23 22:15:10 @tomasino Certainly
2020-06-23 22:15:30 acdw julienxx I found the attachment -- sorry I missed it when I was away
2020-06-23 22:15:44 @julienxx ben: not yet but I’m working on a setting in the tool to generate one or the other
2020-06-23 22:16:11 @tomasino Oh, in his tools
2020-06-23 22:16:25 @ben lol i guess i was just trying to avoid cloning the repo twice to have to different branches
2020-06-23 22:16:52 @julienxx That’s what I did on my server in the meantime :D
2020-06-23 22:19:09 @julienxx Having a bridge where one could post and comment via gemini would be nice for tilde.news
2020-06-23 22:21:58 makeworld I'm sure a smart fridge already has TLS
2020-06-23 22:22:01 makeworld Lol
2020-06-23 22:23:45 makeworld Gemini will work just fine!
2020-06-23 22:25:20 @tomasino True
2020-06-23 22:25:42 @ben julienxx: how would that work?
2020-06-23 22:25:55 @ben would be neato though
2020-06-23 22:26:57 makeworld Using input and client certs maybe?
2020-06-23 22:27:11 @ben yeah i figured but how would you auth to tilde.news
2020-06-23 22:27:35 makeworld Yeah I guess you'd have to add some feature so that you could upload a key or cert to your account on the web UI
2020-06-23 22:27:42 @julienxx Something like a Gemini server associating certificates with a tilde.news user account and making POST requests on their behalf
2020-06-23 22:27:46 makeworld And then bridge will just pass that along
2020-06-23 22:28:17 @ben ahh yeah that makes sense
2020-06-23 22:29:02 @julienxx This could be manual at first like a registered user sends you a certificate and you link it to the token tilde.news expects
2020-06-23 22:30:05 @ben right
2020-06-23 22:30:52 @julienxx And then you can post from a smart fridge
2020-06-23 22:31:48 @tomasino I'm getting sadder and sadder as the mercury posts continue on the ML
2020-06-23 22:32:17 @julienxx Same...
2020-06-23 22:32:45 acdw oh they're still happening?
2020-06-23 22:32:52 @tomasino Mmhmm
2020-06-23 22:33:28 @tomasino It's exactly as I feared. Once solderpunk gave it a name it became a thing people could latch onto and develop independently
2020-06-23 22:33:41 @tomasino It's basically too late to stop now
2020-06-23 22:33:48 @tomasino People are going to implement it
2020-06-23 22:33:54 acdw yerp
2020-06-23 22:33:56 acdw welp
2020-06-23 22:34:06 @ben wait what
2020-06-23 22:34:26 acdw I like text/gemini for sure -- and it'd be cool if gopher was implemented as text/gemini
2020-06-23 22:34:33 acdw like basically text/gemini over gopher
2020-06-23 22:34:40 @tomasino That'd be great
2020-06-23 22:34:53 acdw idk what else mercury would be
2020-06-23 22:34:58 acdw i forget the og post
2020-06-23 22:35:08 @tomasino Well mercury isn't text/Gemini
2020-06-23 22:35:14 @tomasino It's just link lines
2020-06-23 22:35:30 @tomasino And the headers are simpler and provide no Lang
2020-06-23 22:36:14 acdw yeah that's right -- seems like too much if you ask me
2020-06-23 22:36:15 @tomasino But what will people build it to be? Probably Gemini without TLS
2020-06-23 22:36:30 epoch_ only link lines?
2020-06-23 22:36:31 acdw i mean that's fine with me ... just :1965 over clear text
2020-06-23 22:36:41 @ben tls is wildly complicated
2020-06-23 22:36:48 epoch_ like text/uri-list?
2020-06-23 22:36:49 @tomasino But that undermines the ecosystem
2020-06-23 22:37:14 @tomasino You can't trust that you're staying in TLS anymore if you stay in 1965
2020-06-23 22:37:23 acdw mmm that's true
2020-06-23 22:37:26 acdw poot
2020-06-23 22:37:49 @tomasino Which is the most important factor people pointed to that gopher lacks
2020-06-23 22:37:55 @tomasino It started this whole thing
2020-06-23 22:38:18 @tomasino The markup was an add on
2020-06-23 22:38:23 @tomasino Status codes too
2020-06-23 22:39:14 @tomasino The sentiment on the latest post...
2020-06-23 22:39:17 @tomasino As long as the spec specifies both the "with TLS" and "without TLS
2020-06-23 22:39:18 @tomasino bits", and as long as most client/server authors agree to support
2020-06-23 22:39:18 @tomasino both, there shouldn't be any ecosystem split -- again, same as what
2020-06-23 22:39:18 @tomasino happened with http and https
2020-06-23 22:39:19 acdw i personally don't feel the need for encryption but i also understand that's a privileged position
2020-06-23 22:39:42 @tomasino That approach undermines all of the security
2020-06-23 22:40:01 @xq acdw: encryption does not only protect you from identity reveal, but also from malicious content
2020-06-23 22:40:05 @tomasino If I seemlessly move to clear text then what's the point
2020-06-23 22:40:12 acdw mmm I see what you mean! I *was* going to say it'll be differnt protocols like http: and https: but that's notoriously hard to notice in browsers
2020-06-23 22:40:21 acdw xq thank you you're right
2020-06-23 22:41:34 @tomasino I love gopher in it's criminally simple protocol but Gemini isn't a retro protocol. It's a text protocol that is using modem tools and design to be better
2020-06-23 22:41:47 @tomasino Modern
2020-06-23 22:41:58 @tomasino Phone is the worst for irc
2020-06-23 22:42:06 acdw haha yes I can see that
2020-06-23 22:42:14 acdw I tried using an IRC client on my phone about thrice
2020-06-23 22:42:20 acdw it kept disconnecting
2020-06-23 22:42:22 @julienxx Pre-gemini started with this phlog gopher://zaibatsu.circumlunar.space/~solderpunk/phlog/why-gopher-needs-crypto.txt
2020-06-23 22:42:25 @ben weechat-android is the way to go
2020-06-23 22:42:35 @tomasino Yes, julienxx!
2020-06-23 22:42:41 acdw anyway I like your point tomasino -- gemini *isn't* a retro protocol -- but modern and minimalist
2020-06-23 22:43:12 @tomasino If you want something to run on TOPS-20, maybe Gemini just isn't the right answer
2020-06-23 22:43:46 @julienxx But what about fridges 😬
2020-06-23 22:43:57 epoch_ kermit
2020-06-23 22:43:58 @tomasino Fridges should have tls
2020-06-23 22:44:04 @tomasino They do web
2020-06-23 22:44:36 @tomasino You can tweet, so they probably have openssl
2020-06-23 22:44:52 acdw ben: weechat-android require a weechat instance on a host?
2020-06-23 22:44:56 @ben acdw: yeah
2020-06-23 22:45:05 @ben just run it on a tilde
2020-06-23 22:45:31 @ben eg on ~team i have this set up: https://tilde.team/wiki/irc#weechat-relays
2020-06-23 22:45:41 @ben but there's also an ssh connection mode
2020-06-23 22:46:15 @tomasino I'm not going to respond to the ML. I feel like the bad guy shooting down stuff so much. I hope others engage and explain it before it's built and live
2020-06-23 22:46:28 acdw oh shoot yes duh
2020-06-23 22:46:29 acdw omg
2020-06-23 22:46:32 acdw I'm excited about this
2020-06-23 22:46:49 acdw the weechat thing not the mercury thing
2020-06-23 22:47:01 @tomasino Weechat android is great
2020-06-23 22:47:08 @tomasino My autocorrect isn't
2020-06-23 22:47:12 @ben it's actually usable
2020-06-23 22:47:18 acdw that original phlog post gives a ton of examples re not doing mercury
2020-06-23 22:47:25 @ben and you don't have 400 nicks that way either
2020-06-23 22:47:40 acdw bu---400 nicks is the way to goooo
2020-06-23 22:48:43 @ben hehe
2020-06-23 22:48:49 @xq epoch_: you there?
2020-06-23 22:48:53 @ben i yell at people for having multiple nicks sometimes
2020-06-23 22:48:58 @ben cause i never know which one to ping/dm
2020-06-23 22:49:30 @xq ben: i feel adressed :(
2020-06-23 22:49:32 acdw omg that relay thing might just be a game changer
2020-06-23 22:49:44 @xq i need to use a different nick on freenode
2020-06-23 22:49:46 acdw b/c rn I am using autossh but that drops the connection sometimes
2020-06-23 22:50:00 acdw oh boy I have something to set up later
2020-06-23 22:50:10 @ben :P
2020-06-23 22:50:32 @ben i use autossh to connect to ~town's internal irx
2020-06-23 22:50:53 @ben my weechat is on ~team though so the connection is v stable
2020-06-23 22:51:41 acdw oh shoot I have 2 servers i need to stay connected to
2020-06-23 22:51:43 acdw womp
2020-06-23 22:51:54 @tomasino It's all good
2020-06-23 22:52:10 @tomasino Just reread solderpunk's post again
2020-06-23 22:52:15 @ben lol i'm connected to like 10 servers in my weechat
2020-06-23 22:52:23 @tomasino Maybe the thread just needs that link inserted
2020-06-23 22:52:32 acdw OH ben I got there jeez
2020-06-23 22:52:41 acdw yes tomasino I was thinking something like that
2020-06-23 22:52:58 @ben lol
2020-06-23 22:53:20 acdw If you're uncomfortable making a ML post I can do that -- I don't understand much of the technical issues but I've been convinced
2020-06-23 22:56:10 @tomasino If you want to jump in, go for it. I don't want to be that guy again. Maybe Julien will chime in, or maybe I'm an outlier
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2020-06-23 22:58:23 makeworld tomasino: Feel the same way :/
2020-06-23 22:58:32 makeworld About mercury posts and jumping in
2020-06-23 22:58:48 makeworld Has to happen when Solderpunk is away too
2020-06-23 22:59:16 acdw not necessarily -- like I said, I'm not what I'd call *invested* in the TLS stuff, but I do think that a split this early in the game is going to cause confusion and also TLS is kind of the *reason* gemini happened afaict
2020-06-23 22:59:39 acdw I am like straight up convincing myself lol
2020-06-23 23:00:01 acdw okay gotta go
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2020-06-23 23:02:03 makeworld Yeah I agree
2020-06-23 23:40:11 makeworld I think bookmarks might just be done
2020-06-23 23:40:16 makeworld !!
2020-06-23 23:40:35 makeworld The way I store them is kinda hacky though
2020-06-23 23:41:03 makeworld It's in a TOML file, with the base32-encoded URL as keys, and the bookmark names as values
2020-06-23 23:41:28 makeworld But it's not for user editing really, so it's not a big deal, just sorta ugly
2020-06-23 23:43:59 makeworld m5sw22lone5c6l3nmfvwk53pojwgilthoexxk43fojzs67tbor4xeztjnztwk4tqojuw45dtf5twk3lmn5ts6mrqgiyc2mbwfuzdellimfxgo5lmfztw22i=
2020-06-23 23:44:06 makeworld Isn't that nice
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2020-06-24 00:02:12 makeworld Did the server just restart?
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2020-06-24 00:04:03 makeworld Looks like it, I checked #meta
2020-06-24 00:04:12 makeworld Something went down, anyway
2020-06-24 00:13:50 @tomasino team's dedi server rebooted
2020-06-24 00:13:53 @tomasino should be back up now
2020-06-24 00:14:11 @tomasino or.. soon
2020-06-24 00:20:05 makeworld What's dedi?
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2020-06-24 00:22:59 @tomasino ben's dedicated server
2020-06-24 00:23:03 @tomasino runs tilde.team and some other stuff
2020-06-24 00:23:06 @tomasino well, lots of other stuff
2020-06-24 00:23:08 @tomasino it's back now
2020-06-24 00:23:39 makeworld Ah ok
2020-06-24 00:23:43 @tomasino tildegit was running ridiculously slow, so after failing to figure out exactly why, a reboot was warned about for an hour via wall, then done
2020-06-24 00:24:11 makeworld Hmm tilde.team page is not really loading
2020-06-24 00:25:31 makeworld Got it now
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2020-06-24 00:27:21 @tomasino little by little
2020-06-24 00:27:24 @tomasino tildegit is still not pulling
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2020-06-24 01:13:51 kayw ok i think my summer project will be to write a gemini client/server in Ada
2020-06-24 01:13:57 kayw probably client
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2020-06-24 01:14:17 @tomasino aww, damn
2020-06-24 01:14:20 @tomasino that was gonna be my thing
2020-06-24 01:14:26 @tomasino but i can't figure out how to do TLS in it
2020-06-24 01:14:28 @tomasino so go for it
2020-06-24 01:14:30 @tomasino Ada is the best
2020-06-24 01:15:13 kayw a friend introduced me to it, and it's just super legible
2020-06-24 01:15:24 @tomasino there's so much to love about it
2020-06-24 01:15:28 kayw thanks for the heads up about TLS though
2020-06-24 01:15:40 @tomasino you just need to link to a lib, but i dunno how to do that
2020-06-24 01:15:53 kayw I haven't really even written anything in it YET but I hope that the client will be the first
2020-06-24 01:15:54 @tomasino i don't do that sort of programming, like, ever. and it's something tutorials just glaze over
2020-06-24 01:16:24 @tomasino the harder problem you'll have is dealing with the different string types
2020-06-24 01:16:32 @tomasino there's so many
2020-06-24 01:16:53 kayw I'm also thinking of the possibility of writing a client in Java because i'll be TA-ing the Java class at my school when things start back up
2020-06-24 01:17:20 @tomasino why not both!
2020-06-24 01:17:28 @tomasino you can compare and contrast OO styles
2020-06-24 01:18:09 kayw Java really isn't my forte, buuuuuuut I should be able to hack something together
2020-06-24 01:18:20 kayw I also learned Java in the worst IDE possible, BlueJ
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2020-06-24 01:34:19 kayw tomasino: so it's possible to ada to generate bindings from C libs to be used in Ada, so I think that's how i'll conquer that problem
2020-06-24 01:34:35 kayw s/possible to/possible for/
2020-06-24 01:34:49 @tomasino yeah, that's exactly it. i just have not the first clue how to even start that process
2020-06-24 01:34:50 @tomasino :D
2020-06-24 01:35:04 @tomasino you'll make it happen and it'll be glorious
2020-06-24 01:35:07 @tomasino i hope you post your code online
2020-06-24 01:35:10 @tomasino i'd love to learn from it
2020-06-24 01:35:35 kayw i will be, it'll be a wonderful hacky mess on GitHub
2020-06-24 01:36:00 @tomasino :)
2020-06-24 01:36:12 @tomasino i started the euler problems in Ada a while back
2020-06-24 01:36:15 @tomasino it was really fun
2020-06-24 01:36:24 kayw oh shit, i forgot those existed
2020-06-24 01:36:24 @tomasino but making "useful" stuff is better
2020-06-24 01:36:31 kayw i should probably give them a go
2020-06-24 01:41:30 styan I remember solving some with dc(1) (I have an unreasonable love for dc(1)) :-)
2020-06-24 01:43:05 xfnw has quit (The TLS connection was non-properly terminated.)
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2020-06-24 02:04:12 dozens I always loved the advent of code puzzles *far* more than euler
2020-06-24 02:04:16 dozens maybe I just like cute stories
2020-06-24 02:04:32 dozens kayw: hooooo bluej
2020-06-24 02:05:48 @tomasino i started the advent of code with ada too
2020-06-24 02:05:52 @tomasino but i only did like 3 days
2020-06-24 02:05:54 @tomasino then got busy
2020-06-24 02:06:43 kayw bluej is just...
2020-06-24 02:06:45 kayw so bad
2020-06-24 02:06:52 kayw i hate it so much
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2020-06-24 02:13:10 makeworld Does it make sense to announce new releases on the mailing list? I can't tell if it's annoying or not
2020-06-24 02:14:19 @tomasino maybe major versions?
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2020-06-24 02:17:57 Shufei Gemini is lovely funtimes.
2020-06-24 02:25:58 dozens Gemini is funly lovetimes.
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2020-06-24 03:08:06 makeworld tomasino: Yeah that's probably good. I don't see me releasing major versions for Amfora in the future, just minor. But if people want to stay update they can subscribe
2020-06-24 03:08:13 makeworld *up to date
2020-06-24 03:29:54 makeworld Anyway, goodnight y'all. There should be a new Amfora release tomorrow, v1.2.0
2020-06-24 03:30:00 makeworld Bookmarks included!
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2020-06-24 07:17:18 ⚡ kensanata waves
2020-06-24 07:56:50 kensanata I need a Perl module that can lay out text tables. Or better still: turn Wikimedia tables into plain text tables.
2020-06-24 07:59:19 kensanata Hm... https://metacpan.org/pod/Text::Table – sometimes Perl still wins
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2020-06-24 08:14:15 kensanata I should probably host the Wikipedia proxy on a dedicated domain. It still annoys me that I will eventually need some sort of "main server" that listens on port 1965 and dispatches on the domain names requested to the various dedicated gemini services running on the same machine.
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2020-06-24 08:25:52 @julienxx hello
2020-06-24 08:31:42 jan6 olleh
2020-06-24 08:49:23 kensanata The rest of the world is waking up!
2020-06-24 08:49:46 @xq good morning!
2020-06-24 08:49:50 kensanata And natpen!
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2020-06-24 08:55:05 kensanata I'm following the Gemini mailing list by checking the web archive by date. That's a pretty big page by now. https://lists.orbitalfox.eu/archives/gemini/2020/date.html
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2020-06-24 10:37:59 jan6 gemini forum running on gemini protocol when? ;P
2020-06-24 10:49:32 Sario528 Soon™
2020-06-24 11:02:08 @julienxx there is gemini://geddit.pitr.ca
2020-06-24 12:27:23 ~tiwesdaeg hola
2020-06-24 12:28:26 kensanata salut
2020-06-24 12:28:53 ~tiwesdaeg I forgot I had just installed freebsd on this computer last week
2020-06-24 12:29:00 ~tiwesdaeg let's see what we can compile today
2020-06-24 12:29:44 kensanata This morning a read a longer introduction to a Lisp machine. So beautiful! It sounded like one big huge honking Emacs.
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2020-06-24 13:29:02 epoch_ o/
2020-06-24 13:29:17 @xq hey epoch_
2020-06-24 13:29:24 @xq things we definitly need for gemini: http://tholman.com/elevator.js/
2020-06-24 13:51:41 ▬▬▶ xfnw has joined #gemini
2020-06-24 13:58:57 @julienxx nice :D
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2020-06-24 14:06:06 ~tiwesdaeg can I get some diagonal scrolling as well?
2020-06-24 14:06:16 ~tiwesdaeg like a link in every corner
2020-06-24 14:16:49 @xq D:
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2020-06-24 14:24:05 lukee hi folks
2020-06-24 14:24:28 xfnw hi
2020-06-24 14:24:41 lukee I'm super pleased to have just got gopher working in my client
2020-06-24 14:24:46 @xq hey lukee
2020-06-24 14:24:48 @xq \o/
2020-06-24 14:24:51 lukee https://imgur.com/a/d3xoo1f
2020-06-24 14:25:09 lukee all of a sudden the space of accessible content sort of doubled
2020-06-24 14:26:25 lukee I started having a browse around as I tested things out
2020-06-24 14:26:52 lukee its a strange sparse world on gopher
2020-06-24 14:27:55 lukee I also read up some more about the history of gopher - from a time when library sysadmins ruled the world
2020-06-24 14:28:14 lukee anyway a few more bugs to iron out I'm sure
2020-06-24 14:29:02 lukee I'm using a simple client that wraps Go gopher
2020-06-24 14:29:03 lukee https://github.com/prologic/go-gopher
2020-06-24 14:29:45 kensanata Gopher and Gemini, two tastes that go well together... I guess?
2020-06-24 14:29:59 kensanata Elpher is also both a Gopher and a Gemini client.
2020-06-24 14:30:02 lukee chalk and cheese. I do prefer the cheese
2020-06-24 14:30:23 lukee I think Kristall does both too
2020-06-24 14:30:41 @xq yep, Kristall speaks gopher as well
2020-06-24 14:31:38 kensanata I wonder if most people on this channel like Gemini because they think it's intriguing in its own right, or whether they remember Gopher fondly and would like something like Gopher, except a bit better. Like: how many of us started with Gopher, and how many of us discovered Gemini directly (both of these groups learning of it all on the web, I
2020-06-24 14:31:38 kensanata presume).
2020-06-24 14:32:22 @xq kensanata: haven't used gopher before tomasino here explained it to me
2020-06-24 14:32:25 @julienxx In the mailing list at least I think most don't come from the gopher world
2020-06-24 14:32:26 lukee For me, I never used gopher before. I'm just interested in hypertext
2020-06-24 14:33:29 lukee Actually I did maybe briefly try it once back in the day when you could use a web browser like netscape navigator to browser gopher
2020-06-24 14:33:56 lukee I remember it looked rather peculiar, all mono width fonts.
2020-06-24 14:35:03 lukee I didnt really get the point of it, when there was the (early) web which seemed more user friendly and presented formatted documents better
2020-06-24 14:35:53 kensanata Hm, right.
2020-06-24 14:36:00 lukee but now I realise it was just the clients were shit :)
2020-06-24 14:36:13 kensanata I guess I remember gopher but I also switched immediately as soon as I learned how Mosaic worked.
2020-06-24 14:37:06 lukee but now gopher (probably gemini too) has retro-chic
2020-06-24 14:37:37 lukee I have a mental image of the gopher writers being hidden in their gopher holes and not wanting to come out.
2020-06-24 14:37:49 lukee probably an unfair mental image?
2020-06-24 14:38:09 kensanata Well... you can check out the archives of the project gopher mailing list and there are some pretty grumpy people on there.
2020-06-24 14:38:33 kensanata I also left the gopher IRC channel after a while (not the one on Tilde but elsewhere)
2020-06-24 14:38:46 lukee Even more grumpy than the gemini lot? :)
2020-06-24 14:39:30 lukee anyway its good to understand both directions of influence into Gemini
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2020-06-24 14:45:32 makeworld lukee: You added Gopher support to Geminaut? Or am I misunderstanding
2020-06-24 14:45:39 lukee yes today
2020-06-24 14:45:44 makeworld Ooh nice
2020-06-24 14:45:58 makeworld Also I filed an issue on the Github repo, about updating gemget, if you could take a look?
2020-06-24 14:46:16 lukee yes I did see that - thanks for the reminder. I can drop it in now
2020-06-24 14:46:58 lukee I found a Go library/utility for gopher. I like the fact that Go applications are so easy to deploy
2020-06-24 14:47:19 lukee no worries about getting a million and one dependencies right
2020-06-24 14:47:46 makeworld Sounds good!
2020-06-24 14:47:54 makeworld How are you integrating it into Geminaut?
2020-06-24 14:50:11 lukee just a shell call, like with gemget. Its pretty crude, but works
2020-06-24 14:50:28 makeworld Oh I meant go-gopher
2020-06-24 14:50:53 makeworld Oh also the the main thing with this gemget update is that you shouldn't use --insecure in the shell call
2020-06-24 14:50:57 lukee same thing - the library has a simple example client. I hacked that a bit to make it do what I want
2020-06-24 14:51:13 ~tiwesdaeg xq: I just built kristall on a new freebsd install.
2020-06-24 14:51:28 ~tiwesdaeg all I needed to do was install the git and qt5 packages
2020-06-24 14:51:30 lukee I've just dropped in the new gemget - seems to work OK
2020-06-24 14:51:36 ~tiwesdaeg no errors
2020-06-24 14:51:43 lukee I'll try to turn off the --insecure flag see how it goes
2020-06-24 14:51:53 @xq tiwesdaeg, thanks for the report
2020-06-24 14:52:33 makeworld lukee: Sounds good
2020-06-24 14:52:44 @xq tiwesdaeg: d you have me a list of the qt5 packages?
2020-06-24 14:53:02 makeworld I forget if GemiNaut does TLS and TOFU stuff. Gemget doesn't do TOFU, but it will check cert expiry and whether it matches the domain, etc
2020-06-24 14:53:52 makeworld So if GemiNaut allows you to access a messed up site, gemget wouldn't let you download, unless you put insecure. But it's probably better to leave it on
2020-06-24 14:55:38 lukee I'll try it out. If it turns out a lot is still inaccessible I might have a user choice or an option
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2020-06-24 14:59:08 lukee can anyone suggest a URL that is "insecure" I can test against?
2020-06-24 14:59:24 lukee ie. the certificates are expired or something
2020-06-24 14:59:42 lukee makeworld: so far so good on the new gemget - thankyou
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2020-06-24 15:00:44 makeworld Idk about an insecure test URL, but I can tell you that gemget won't download from something insecure unless you use --insecure
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2020-06-24 15:01:05 @julienxx acdw: thanks for your post on the ML!
2020-06-24 15:01:10 makeworld Which could be a feature, but might be unexpected if GemiNaut is not doing any TLS work. I hope it's on your roadmap though!
2020-06-24 15:01:16 makeworld Yes, thanks!
2020-06-24 15:02:02 lukee I will eventually replace gemget with some native TLS calls, but for now this is TBD
2020-06-24 15:02:36 makeworld Happy to see it being used, even as a hack :)
2020-06-24 15:03:04 lukee I think the "Twin Peaks" windows client (also c#) has its own native library for gemini with TLS. Not sure how mature it is though
2020-06-24 15:03:22 lukee if it works I might integrate that some day
2020-06-24 15:03:36 makeworld Oh I forgot about that one
2020-06-24 15:03:40 acdw julienxx: :D
2020-06-24 15:07:57 ~tiwesdaeg brb
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2020-06-24 15:09:02 acdw who the f is nicksarv
2020-06-24 15:10:04 kensanata Try /msg nickserv help
2020-06-24 15:10:27 kensanata You get to "register" your nick and protect it with a password.
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2020-06-24 15:10:29 ℹ Mode #gemini [+qo tiwesdaeg tiwesdaeg] by ChanServ
2020-06-24 15:10:31 @julienxx did you get a frozen nick message too?
2020-06-24 15:10:41 acdw julienxx: yes, but from NickSarv
2020-06-24 15:10:46 acdw note the "a"
2020-06-24 15:10:50 kensanata Oh!
2020-06-24 15:10:58 acdw I think it's some kind of phisher
2020-06-24 15:11:01 acdw from ctrl-c.club
2020-06-24 15:11:05 @julienxx Oh right! Good catch!
2020-06-24 15:11:14 acdw at least that's what the about user thing said
2020-06-24 15:11:17 acdw :)
2020-06-24 15:11:24 ~tiwesdaeg testing byobu issues
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2020-06-24 15:11:37 acdw I've never seen phishing on IRC before
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2020-06-24 15:12:44 ~tiwesdaeg hmm
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2020-06-24 15:13:29 acdw hi, bye
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2020-06-24 15:13:50 ~tiwesdaeg ok
2020-06-24 15:14:02 ~tiwesdaeg I guess we're just using tmux
2020-06-24 15:14:36 acdw tmux is pretty good
2020-06-24 15:14:43 acdw is byobu screen?
2020-06-24 15:15:22 ~tiwesdaeg it uses tmux or screen
2020-06-24 15:15:36 ~tiwesdaeg it was not behaving right on freebsd
2020-06-24 15:16:08 acdw oh cool, but also lame
2020-06-24 15:16:11 acdw that it won't work
2020-06-24 15:16:52 ~tiwesdaeg the text is sort of not being cleared right on the display
2020-06-24 15:18:13 acdw oh weird -- terminals are weird
2020-06-24 15:19:53 ~tiwesdaeg they sure are
2020-06-24 15:20:27 ~tiwesdaeg now to see if I can figure out why kristall isn't displaying utf-8 characters in freebsd
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2020-06-24 15:21:45 makeworld Konpeito down again :/
2020-06-24 15:22:02 ~tiwesdaeg pink was down this morning
2020-06-24 15:22:17 ~tiwesdaeg looks like there was a reboot of some sort
2020-06-24 15:22:30 ~tiwesdaeg the server was running, but not serving anything and needed a restart
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2020-06-24 17:28:16 makeworld It's kinda annoying that the cert status codes were changed in a non-backwards compatible wa
2020-06-24 17:28:18 makeworld *way
2020-06-24 17:28:50 makeworld Like now 61 is CERTIFICATE NOT AUTHORISED
2020-06-24 17:29:03 makeworld While before it used to be TRANSIENT CERTIFICATE REQUESTED
2020-06-24 17:29:20 makeworld So now gemini://mozz.us/tls/ is broken for example
2020-06-24 17:29:35 makeworld But I suppose stuff changing is just how new protocols are
2020-06-24 17:32:34 jan6 that's what protocol versioning is for ;P
2020-06-24 17:32:38 xfnw lol
2020-06-24 17:32:43 jan6 idk why it's not a part of gemini, lol
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2020-06-24 17:33:10 jan6 v1 <url>
2020-06-24 17:33:14 jan6 instead of <url>
2020-06-24 17:33:18 jan6 or such ;P
2020-06-24 17:33:36 xfnw HTTP/1.1 GET /jan6
2020-06-24 17:33:42 jan6 no
2020-06-24 17:35:35 xfnw why does gemini have its own protocol? wouldint it basically be the same as https but setting the content-type to text/gemini?
2020-06-24 17:36:36 @xq xfnw: no, not at all
2020-06-24 17:36:46 @xq gemini is a delivery protocol such as HTTP
2020-06-24 17:36:52 @xq but it's by far not as expandable as HTTP
2020-06-24 17:37:10 xfnw hm
2020-06-24 17:37:18 @xq only one mandatory header (Content-Type), no optional headers
2020-06-24 17:37:29 @xq text/gemini is a docment type
2020-06-24 17:37:39 @xq (i still find that double-naming problematic)
2020-06-24 17:37:55 @xq i vote for crewtext
2020-06-24 17:39:50 jan6 yeah, I'd also prefer if there was clear separation
2020-06-24 17:40:36 jan6 Gemin protocol with Pisces markup language?
2020-06-24 17:40:41 @xq "text/crewreport" is the content of a gemini-served capsule
2020-06-24 17:41:51 jan6 Pisces astrological sign is usually seen as two fish, which would fit well with the Gemini being twins ;P
2020-06-24 17:42:14 makeworld I think changing the MIME type is a bad idea
2020-06-24 17:42:22 makeworld But it having a formal name would be good
2020-06-24 17:42:32 jan6 no worse than changing the response header
2020-06-24 17:42:32 jan6 lol
2020-06-24 17:43:08 jan6 I like my Gemini/Pisces idea
2020-06-24 17:43:12 makeworld Yeah, so let's avoid doing more of that lol
2020-06-24 17:43:31 @xq makeworld: i don't think it's bad changing it atm
2020-06-24 17:43:45 @xq project is still young-enough to allow for that
2020-06-24 17:43:46 jan6 right now is one of the places to make the change, while there aren't TOO many programs already using the old one
2020-06-24 17:43:48 jan6 yeah
2020-06-24 17:43:59 makeworld I think change should be reduced as much as possible, I don't think the name is a big enough reason to change
2020-06-24 17:44:07 @xq it sparks confusion
2020-06-24 17:44:08 jan6 the later on, the harder the change, since there will be more and more of stuff that'll break
2020-06-24 17:44:14 @xq it makes communication harder
2020-06-24 17:44:26 @xq i always use text/gemini when i want to talk about the text format
2020-06-24 17:44:31 @xq and gemini:// when i talk about the code
2020-06-24 17:44:39 makeworld Just call it gemtext, or gemini text or something
2020-06-24 17:44:41 @xq because when i talk about "gemini", you can't find out what i'm talking about
2020-06-24 17:44:48 makeworld Yeah
2020-06-24 17:44:49 ⚡ xq still votes for crewreport
2020-06-24 17:45:07 makeworld Although since both were released together, "Gemini" can refer to the project as a whole
2020-06-24 17:46:27 wgreenhouse I think it's fine to have both the network protocol and the format be called gemini for short. "gemini protocol" and "gemini markup language" when ambiguous?
2020-06-24 17:49:04 makeworld Yeah
2020-06-24 17:50:26 acdw I cosign that
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2020-06-24 18:00:11 @xq cosine?
2020-06-24 18:07:35 makeworld https://github.com/makeworld-the-better-one/amfora/releases/tag/v1.1.0
2020-06-24 18:07:52 makeworld New Amfora release, with bookmarks
2020-06-24 18:07:59 makeworld Let me know what you think!
2020-06-24 18:08:07 makeworld Binaries will be up in a moment
2020-06-24 18:08:32 @xq makeworld: nice!
2020-06-24 18:11:49 makeworld :)
2020-06-24 18:13:00 ⚡ xq is currently migrating from one server to another
2020-06-24 18:20:54 makeworld Gl
2020-06-24 18:21:12 ⚡ makeworld going outside
2020-06-24 18:23:15 @xq thanks, also good luck :D
2020-06-24 18:29:11 epoch_ a gemini response is a message/gemini in the world i built for myself
2020-06-24 18:30:30 epoch_ like, message/http
2020-06-24 18:31:11 epoch_ you /could/ serve gemini over http if you wanted. :P
2020-06-24 18:31:43 epoch_ printf "Content-Type: message/gemini\r\n\r\n10 search query:\r\n"
2020-06-24 18:32:07 epoch_ printf "Content-Type: message/gemini\r\n\r\n20 text/plain\r\nlol. what's the point of this extra header? :D"
2020-06-24 18:32:30 epoch_ hrm...
2020-06-24 18:34:05 epoch_ send a message/gemini over email, but how would it know what the base URL would be for if you tried a type 10 response? guess how a form in html loaded from a file would attempt to submit.
2020-06-24 18:34:21 epoch_ except forms can point to some other location instead of only to themselves
2020-06-24 18:37:07 epoch_ hrm... serving message/gemini /over/ gemini.
2020-06-24 18:37:13 epoch_ XD
2020-06-24 18:37:26 epoch_ could contain a chain of 10 responses in one response
2020-06-24 18:37:47 ⚡ epoch_ makes an example
2020-06-24 18:38:24 epoch_ or maybe not
2020-06-24 18:38:41 epoch_ could chain 20s
2020-06-24 18:40:44 epoch_ if a gemini client handled message/gemini by opening the response in a new tab you could just have a script outputing 20 message/gemini and cause the client to open a bunch of tabs
2020-06-24 18:41:46 epoch_ at least asking "this is a message/gemini, do you want to open it?" would be better than automatic opening
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2020-06-24 19:03:43 epoch_ disabled gemini://gemini.thebackupbox.net/datestream until I come up with a good way of making it exit when the remote end closes the socket
2020-06-24 19:04:02 epoch_ had just noticed it was running a bunch of times even with nobody attached to gemini
2020-06-24 19:05:05 jan6 epoch_: that's not how the gemini response would go, lol
2020-06-24 19:05:25 jan6 there's no point in wrapping gemini protocol into http
2020-06-24 19:05:33 epoch_ yeah, but eventually after getting 100 MB the person closes their client
2020-06-24 19:05:51 jan6 if you serve text/gemini serve text/gemini, if you want gemini statuscodes, use gemini://
2020-06-24 19:05:52 jan6 lol
2020-06-24 19:05:58 jan6 not some amalgamation
2020-06-24 19:06:18 epoch_ oh, you were talking about earlier stuff I said.
2020-06-24 19:06:29 jan6 wrapping protocols like that is pointless
2020-06-24 19:06:40 epoch_ maybe. I might come up with a use for it.
2020-06-24 19:06:55 epoch_ not saying people should, just a possibility.
2020-06-24 19:06:55 jan6 you could also make a specification on how to represent gemini responses as files and directories
2020-06-24 19:06:56 jan6 lol
2020-06-24 19:07:25 jan6 hmm, that might actually be a possibly SLIGHTLY useful way to do stuff, actually
2020-06-24 19:07:57 epoch_ if the gemini over http proxy was written in javascript
2020-06-24 19:08:03 jan6 naaaaaaaaaah
2020-06-24 19:08:07 epoch_ /it/ could handle the message/gemini header itself
2020-06-24 19:08:31 jan6 sure you can do anything
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2020-06-24 20:21:31 epoch_ so, I made a crappy gemini client over http using javascript
2020-06-24 20:21:49 epoch_ sure to make everyone that sees it cringe
2020-06-24 20:22:14 epoch_ :)
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2020-06-24 20:42:22 jan6 lol
2020-06-24 20:42:30 jan6 this gives me an idea tho
2020-06-24 20:42:35 jan6 webassembly client ;P
2020-06-24 20:43:08 jan6 you can also run webassembly natively, with some programs ;P
2020-06-24 20:43:50 @xq wasmer or similar
2020-06-24 20:44:02 jan6 innative
2020-06-24 20:44:10 jan6 or whatever
2020-06-24 20:46:28 @xq but: yu still need JS glue between Wasm and your server
2020-06-24 20:47:06 jan6 not sure if webassembly would need websockets to connect directly, like I think normal javascript would... (which is why stuff like overbiteNX need a native component, because web stuffs can't connect to arbitrary tcp ports)
2020-06-24 20:53:47 @xq yes, it does
2020-06-24 20:53:52 @xq wasm is perfectly sandboxed
2020-06-24 20:53:57 @xq it has *NO* system interface
2020-06-24 21:03:14 jan6 https://github.com/innative-sdk/innative
2020-06-24 21:03:32 jan6 while a little spec-breaking, that can directly access host machine ;P
2020-06-24 21:04:30 @xq funky :D
2020-06-24 21:04:55 jan6 https://innative.dev is the site
2020-06-24 21:05:28 jan6 it looks quite cool thingy, as y'know, call win32 API from wasm? lol, sounds great
2020-06-24 21:05:49 jan6 should be able to do similar stuff on linux too
2020-06-24 21:06:07 @xq well, you techniacally can call those APIs from wasm
2020-06-24 21:06:12 @xq when you expose them to the wasm runtime
2020-06-24 21:06:23 @xq but the nice thing about wasm is: this is a opt-in action
2020-06-24 21:06:55 jan6 the not-so-nice thing is that everyone assumes you'll be running it on the web ;P
2020-06-24 21:07:21 jan6 "inNative uses its own unofficial extension to allow it to pass WebAssembly pointers into C functions."
2020-06-24 21:07:57 jan6 other than slight unofficiality, it seems great in a lot of ways
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2020-06-24 21:44:07 makeworld Uh oh
2020-06-24 21:44:09 makeworld Lol
2020-06-24 21:50:51 acdw ?
2020-06-24 21:52:00 makeworld Oh you just joined
2020-06-24 21:52:23 makeworld People were talking about Javascript Gemini clients, or WASM clients, I was just making a joke
2020-06-24 21:52:33 makeworld Oh also, I released Amfora v1.1.0, with bookmarks
2020-06-24 21:53:14 acdw oh nice!
2020-06-24 21:53:17 acdw yes sorry bout that
2020-06-24 21:53:27 acdw oh a js gmi client would be wild
2020-06-24 21:53:35 acdw not sure why necessary
2020-06-24 21:53:46 acdw there's like no interactivity on gemini
2020-06-24 21:56:38 makeworld I think the JS just does everything
2020-06-24 21:56:45 makeworld Like the whole client runs in the browser
2020-06-24 21:56:52 makeworld epoch_: Can you tell us more?
2020-06-24 21:57:04 makeworld Got a source link or site where the JS is hosted?
2020-06-24 21:59:11 epoch_ https://thebackupbox.net/gemini.html
2020-06-24 21:59:22 epoch_ uses a CGI to actually pull the message/gemini
2020-06-24 21:59:49 acdw oh I see, to make the browser do all the work?
2020-06-24 21:59:59 acdw so like, portal.mozz.us doesn't have to render the page into HTML
2020-06-24 22:00:34 acdw okay that's kinda cool
2020-06-24 22:01:01 acdw aight I'm out, sorry for the run
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2020-06-24 22:01:33 epoch_ inb4 someone points out the XSS
2020-06-24 22:02:20 epoch_ if that page causes trouble it'll just get deleted, not fixed.
2020-06-24 22:02:47 makeworld Wait so what does the JS do, the renderering?
2020-06-24 22:02:54 epoch_ yeah
2020-06-24 22:03:16 makeworld Ah ok
2020-06-24 22:03:24 ⚡ makeworld borgers
2020-06-24 22:03:42 makeworld See y'all
2020-06-24 22:03:46 epoch_ but it also handles the different gemini responses
2020-06-24 22:03:57 epoch_ so like, a 10 will cause a javascript prompt
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2020-06-25 00:38:28 @tomasino i actually signed up with qt and installed the latest version on here. ubuntu has a pretty old version in apt
2020-06-25 00:38:42 @tomasino i see many tutorials included in there. I guess I'll spend some time with that soon
2020-06-25 01:30:13 ~tiwesdaeg especially ubuntu lts
2020-06-25 01:30:25 dozens https://ttm.sh/Qj7.png
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2020-06-25 03:39:03 makeworld Ahaha
2020-06-25 03:39:10 makeworld Someone put that on Gemini please
2020-06-25 03:39:15 makeworld If I don't do it first
2020-06-25 03:44:27 makeworld Hmm, looks like Konpeito has blocked portal.mozz.us
2020-06-25 03:44:35 makeworld It will not load using it
2020-06-25 03:50:56 kayw i wonder why
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2020-06-25 07:11:43 @xq hello!
2020-06-25 07:14:55 @xq dozens: Lol
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2020-06-25 08:43:15 dkibi heyo
2020-06-25 09:26:15 ℹ Mode #gemini [+o julienxx_] by ChanServ
2020-06-25 09:26:22 ℹ julienxx_ is now known as julienxx
2020-06-25 09:26:55 @julienxx howdy
2020-06-25 09:30:04 @xq heyhoh
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2020-06-25 11:21:45 kensanata 🚀🚀
2020-06-25 11:24:11 login hi kensanata
2020-06-25 11:27:06 kensanata Trying to render MediaWiki tables in plain text is... more than an hour or two of work, even if there are about a dozen libraries to do half of it.
2020-06-25 11:37:20 CommunistWolf heh. I once wrote a library to output ascii tables, because none of the existing ones did what I wanted. dozen -> baker's dozen
2020-06-25 12:06:31 kensanata I hate all that rowspanning an colspanning...
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2020-06-25 12:12:41 @julienxx I used this golang library it was okay, it can output tables https://github.com/jaytaylor/html2text
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2020-06-25 12:57:14 ~tiwesdaeg am I a bad person that I just ignore all the email marked mercury?
2020-06-25 12:57:53 @tomasino nope
2020-06-25 12:57:55 Sario528 No,
2020-06-25 12:58:20 Sario528 If it doesn't interest you, then there's no reason for you to read it
2020-06-25 13:08:50 dkibi tiwesdaeg: I for the first time looked up how to mark an entire thread as read xD
2020-06-25 13:09:39 dkibi and in general: the good thing about mailing lists is that users can do whatever filtering they want
2020-06-25 13:10:30 ~tiwesdaeg nice ;P I just did that
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2020-06-25 17:43:47 makeworld Solderpunk said: I will reply to this whole Mercury thread tomorrow (probably relatively briefly)
2020-06-25 17:43:58 makeworld That's all you have to know about Mercury lol
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2020-06-25 19:53:17 @tomasino :D
2020-06-25 19:53:19 @tomasino so glad
2020-06-25 19:55:19 companion_cube heh, funny one
2020-06-25 19:55:27 companion_cube vegan cyclists carrying USB sticks
2020-06-25 19:55:45 companion_cube content-based addressing is the futuuuure
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2020-06-25 20:33:13 kensanata I've improved the Wikipedia proxy a bit. It now renders tables... gemini://alexschroeder.ch:1967/full/en/Project_Gemini – let's see what your clients say. :)
2020-06-25 20:33:25 kensanata It looks pretty good in Elpher
2020-06-25 20:34:40 kensanata The only links it renders are the "main article" links.
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2020-06-25 21:34:50 @julienxx Looks good on the iOS gemini client
2020-06-25 21:36:11 kensanata 👍
2020-06-25 21:44:14 makeworld @cam
2020-06-25 21:44:33 makeworld companion_cube: I love that quote, I added it to my homepage at gemini://makeworld.gq lol
2020-06-25 21:44:44 makeworld And shared it with my mesh networking group
2020-06-25 21:45:54 makeworld kensanata: Tables look good!
2020-06-25 21:46:03 makeworld In Amfora, anyway
2020-06-25 21:46:19 companion_cube well it also makes me dream
2020-06-25 21:46:25 makeworld Should be good in all clients as long as you're wrapping in a preformatted block
2020-06-25 21:46:29 companion_cube so solarpunk :D
2020-06-25 21:46:30 makeworld Yes, me too :)
2020-06-25 21:46:33 makeworld Yess
2020-06-25 21:47:10 companion_cube btw castor fails to parse your site, I think (maybe the content type is wrong?)
2020-06-25 21:47:22 companion_cube it doesn't display buttons properly :s
2020-06-25 21:47:26 companion_cube links*
2020-06-25 21:47:33 makeworld Mine??
2020-06-25 21:47:58 makeworld https://portal.mozz.us/gemini/makeworld.gq/?raw=1
2020-06-25 21:48:10 companion_cube yeah it's pure text?
2020-06-25 21:48:11 makeworld Well there's the raw site, I don't see any link issues...
2020-06-25 21:48:21 makeworld No that's the raw version
2020-06-25 21:48:26 makeworld https://portal.mozz.us/gemini/makeworld.gq/
2020-06-25 21:48:30 makeworld There's the rendered site
2020-06-25 21:48:43 makeworld Seems like a Castor issue
2020-06-25 21:49:03 makeworld Meta string is: text/gemini; lang=en
2020-06-25 21:49:15 companion_cube so weird
2020-06-25 21:49:52 makeworld Yeah, sounds like a total Castor bug
2020-06-25 21:49:57 makeworld 🤷♂️
2020-06-25 21:50:07 companion_cube weird that it works on other sites
2020-06-25 21:50:13 companion_cube gemini sites*
2020-06-25 21:52:43 @julienxx Might be because of the lang
2020-06-25 21:53:14 companion_cube ah possibly
2020-06-25 21:53:29 companion_cube I miss web browsers devtools, I must say
2020-06-25 21:53:59 @julienxx I know I haven’t put any code to handle it and it might fallback to a weird state
2020-06-25 21:54:31 companion_cube ah, plaintext, I think
2020-06-25 21:54:37 companion_cube it's your client? cool
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2020-06-25 21:55:56 @julienxx Yes, haven’t worked much on it these days but I use it all the time and so far it fits my simple needs :)
2020-06-25 21:56:05 makeworld julienxx: How are you parsing the mimetype?
2020-06-25 21:56:30 makeworld A in-spec parser should just ignore the lang parameter, I think
2020-06-25 21:56:42 makeworld I just use Go's stdlib parser, idk if there's an equivalent for Castor
2020-06-25 21:56:44 @julienxx String equality if I recall correctly (not at my computer atm)
2020-06-25 21:56:55 makeworld Ah yeah that's probably the issue then
2020-06-25 21:57:08 companion_cube you can try to split on `;` if there's any, and ignore the RHS
2020-06-25 21:57:11 makeworld If you don't want to bring a full parser I think just using a string prefix instead will help
2020-06-25 21:57:28 makeworld Like check if the string starts with "text/gemini" instead of the whole string equaling that
2020-06-25 21:57:53 @julienxx Sure, params didn’t exist at the time so I’ll update that bit
2020-06-25 21:58:56 makeworld Sounds good
2020-06-25 21:58:58 @julienxx I think I do mime == text/gemini -> render gemini, mime starts with text -> render text otherwise download file
2020-06-25 21:59:04 @julienxx Or something like that
2020-06-25 21:59:26 companion_cube yeah just start with a split on `;` and a str::trim ;)
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2020-06-25 22:04:43 @julienxx So far my parsing is only regexps and strings comparisons. I wanted to go fancy with Parser Combinators at some point but later :D
2020-06-25 22:04:56 companion_cube you don't need regexes
2020-06-25 22:07:00 @xq whaaaat
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2020-06-25 22:07:30 @julienxx I do for the gopher part
2020-06-25 22:07:39 @xq julienxx: that's my mime type parser: https://github.com/MasterQ32/kristall/blob/master/src/mimeparser.cpp#L41-L86
2020-06-25 22:07:51 @xq it's even more complex than necessary, i should strip it dwn
2020-06-25 22:09:02 companion_cube https://play.rust-lang.org/?version=stable&mode=debug&edition=2018&gist=f9d41ba0cf3ec377e0f93e877b30896f @ julienxx
2020-06-25 22:10:09 @julienxx companion_cube: oh right I was thinking in the whole app, not the the mime part
2020-06-25 22:12:03 @julienxx This is what Castor is doing https://git.sr.ht/~julienxx/castor/tree/master/src/main.rs#L208 208 to 229
2020-06-25 22:12:07 companion_cube hmm, gemini is designed to be line based right?
2020-06-25 22:12:24 acdw yep!
2020-06-25 22:12:24 @xq yes
2020-06-25 22:12:26 @julienxx Yes regexps are probably overkill
2020-06-25 22:12:37 companion_cube especially since regex is such a long crate to compile 🙄
2020-06-25 22:12:37 acdw has quit (Client exited)
2020-06-25 22:12:56 @julienxx But I need it for color parsing and other stuff
2020-06-25 22:13:21 @julienxx ansi colors are hard when not in a term
2020-06-25 22:13:37 @tomasino Regex ftw
2020-06-25 22:13:39 @xq ansi colors are horrible horrible
2020-06-25 22:13:51 ⚡ xq has once written a ANSI escape code interpreter
2020-06-25 22:13:57 ⚡ xq has still nightmares
2020-06-25 22:15:39 @julienxx Yeah totally, my basic parsing worked for kompeito but fails for astrobotany
2020-06-25 22:16:05 @julienxx But I loved the hack so I wanted it in my client!
2020-06-25 22:17:39 @xq oh
2020-06-25 22:17:41 @xq astrobotany
2020-06-25 22:17:45 ⚡ xq has to water some plants
2020-06-25 22:17:51 @xq aaaand maybe implement color parsing
2020-06-25 22:19:02 @xq oooooooh
2020-06-25 22:19:29 @xq this is beautiful
2020-06-25 22:19:45 @julienxx Wait for someone asking for some style sheets on the ML ^^
2020-06-25 22:21:16 makeworld o.O
2020-06-25 22:22:15 @xq hm?
2020-06-25 22:22:28 ⚡ xq was going to implement some GSS for Kristall
2020-06-25 22:23:37 @julienxx I meant someone proposing an extension to text/gemini with styling
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2020-06-25 22:32:10 @xq ah
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2020-06-26 01:33:09 krixano2 Ok, so DNS requests are sent in cleartext right?
2020-06-26 01:33:19 krixano2 So what prevents people from snooping on your dns requests?
2020-06-26 01:33:42 companion_cube julienxx: btw I have some weird tearing on castor
2020-06-26 01:33:46 @tomasino DNS doesn't have to be in clear text
2020-06-26 01:34:03 krixano2 I guess I mean that it's not encrypted
2020-06-26 01:34:20 @tomasino DoT and DoH
2020-06-26 01:34:24 @tomasino both encrypted
2020-06-26 01:34:30 @tomasino use one of those
2020-06-26 01:34:40 krixano2 TLS on Gemini or http doesn't prevent this, and neither does it prevent the wifi hotspot or ISP from snooping on what you're sending unless we use DOH or DOT
2020-06-26 01:35:08 krixano2 Right tomasino, I should have specified. I was talking with someone else on here about how they think DoH and DoT doesn't provide any benefits
2020-06-26 01:35:36 @tomasino oh, that's pretty silly
2020-06-26 01:35:48 @tomasino i mean, there's been a horde of articles and discussion on that topic in the last year
2020-06-26 01:36:06 krixano2 Additionally, without DoH or DoT, isn't MITM also possible?
2020-06-26 01:36:24 krixano2 (well, maybe not, idk...)
2020-06-26 01:36:26 @tomasino not really
2020-06-26 01:36:29 @tomasino but it's trackable
2020-06-26 01:37:29 krixano2 So, if we are going to be so concerned about privacy in gemini, about whether people can be tracked for going to a bible or quran website, or whatever else, then we should be using DoT, because otherwise a lot of this is *sorta* thrown out the window
2020-06-26 01:37:50 krixano2 website -> gemini capsule
2020-06-26 01:41:29 krixano2 However, hold on though... what about ip addresses? Can those be seen by anybody over a network?
2020-06-26 01:42:21 @tomasino yes
2020-06-26 01:42:31 @tomasino i mean, that's how the computers talk
2020-06-26 01:42:53 @tomasino :D
2020-06-26 01:42:58 companion_cube unless you use TOR
2020-06-26 01:43:13 krixano2 So, DoH doesn't protect domains from being seen by ISPs, but it does protect against other people seeing this. However, other people can still snoop ip addresses.
2020-06-26 01:43:38 krixano2 So does DoT *actually* help anything?
2020-06-26 01:44:24 @tomasino DoH protects domains from being seen by anyone except the DNS provider
2020-06-26 01:44:29 @tomasino that may not be the ISP
2020-06-26 01:44:42 krixano2 Right, but people can still see ip addresses
2020-06-26 01:45:14 @tomasino yes, without some form of IPSEC
2020-06-26 01:45:19 @tomasino but tunneling has its own issues
2020-06-26 01:45:47 krixano2 So DoT doesn't *actually* do anything, right? You can still see where a person is going from the ip address, right?
2020-06-26 01:46:59 @tomasino if my TCP/IP memory serves you could see IPS frames
2020-06-26 01:47:15 @tomasino but the contents would be encrypted
2020-06-26 01:47:20 krixano2 I don't really know what those are
2020-06-26 01:47:28 @tomasino like individual packets
2020-06-26 01:47:51 @tomasino it's been a REALLY long time since i had to learn about TCP/IP though
2020-06-26 01:47:57 @tomasino um... 20+ years now
2020-06-26 01:48:06 @tomasino i'm sure someone around here knows better
2020-06-26 01:51:52 krixano2 What if instead of making TLS optional, we made non-TLS optional for *servers*.
2020-06-26 01:52:31 @tomasino i don't think there's even the slightest chance at all that anything but 100% encryption will ever be considered for gemini
2020-06-26 01:53:19 krixano2 The idea being that every server must support TLS so that any client that needs it has that. But users who don't feel like they need TLS can choose a non-TLS option if the server supports it.
2020-06-26 01:53:35 krixano2 Aka... whether a user needs encryption or not should be the user's choice, not the server's choice.
2020-06-26 01:55:28 krixano2 If we want 100% encryption, then we should be requiring Tor also, but I'm not so sure that will happen, so yeah.
2020-06-26 01:55:46 @tomasino TLS accomplishes the goals
2020-06-26 01:55:51 @tomasino gemini over tor is nice, though
2020-06-26 01:56:09 krixano2 If the goal is 100% encryption, then TLS doesn't accomplish the goals, does it?
2020-06-26 01:56:35 @tomasino it does
2020-06-26 01:57:06 krixano2 Can you explain how it protects against what we were just talking about, DNS and IP addresses?
2020-06-26 01:57:11 @tomasino you have privacy and data integrity between server and client
2020-06-26 01:57:14 @tomasino that's the goal
2020-06-26 01:57:36 @tomasino anonymity benefits from DNS and IP obfuscation would be nice add-ons, but the conversation is secure
2020-06-26 01:58:17 krixano2 But not privacy in DNS requests or Ip Addresses. Let's say I went to go to a site called "gemini://QuranIslam.org", everybody knows approximately what the overall content of that is.
2020-06-26 01:58:43 krixano2 Additionally, Literally all anybody has to do is point their own client to that same domain and get the exact same content I'm getting
2020-06-26 01:58:59 companion_cube they don't get the full URL though
2020-06-26 01:59:14 companion_cube only the domain (or just the IP)
2020-06-26 02:00:00 krixano2 That doesn't really matter... they can easily browse through the site and look at anything I might be looking at. They also can tell whether the site has the Quran on it or not.
2020-06-26 02:00:26 companion_cube I think if you have secure DNS, it's a lot better already
2020-06-26 02:00:47 companion_cube the server could ignore queries that don't provide the right hostname (and give the IP instead)
2020-06-26 02:00:50 krixano2 Right, all I'm saying is at the minimum we should be also requiring DoT
2020-06-26 02:00:53 @tomasino yes, we should recommend DoT or DoH where people can use it
2020-06-26 02:00:58 @tomasino but it's beyond the scope of the gemini protocol
2020-06-26 02:01:09 companion_cube what's DoT? DoH is DNS over https I imagine
2020-06-26 02:01:13 @tomasino yes
2020-06-26 02:01:19 krixano2 DoT is Dns over TLS
2020-06-26 02:01:26 companion_cube ah ok
2020-06-26 02:02:14 @tomasino once you get past that, ips talking to ips doesn't really leak anything
2020-06-26 02:02:21 @tomasino you're just packets in the herd
2020-06-26 02:02:25 krixano2 DoT is *not* out of the scope of the spec because the spec is already putting restrictions on servers and clients. Clients should have to support DoT
2020-06-26 02:02:43 companion_cube isn't it provided by the OS?!
2020-06-26 02:02:51 @tomasino usually DNS is handled by the OS, yes
2020-06-26 02:02:56 companion_cube I mean, I think I use the system's DNS API
2020-06-26 02:03:02 companion_cube so it's not really my concern
2020-06-26 02:03:05 @tomasino and when applications try to do it themselves you get the shitstorm like Firefox did
2020-06-26 02:03:05 krixano2 Firefox and Chrome had to implement DoT support themselves, as far as I'm aware
2020-06-26 02:03:13 krixano2 (correction: DoH)
2020-06-26 02:03:21 @tomasino they didn't have to, they chose to and it created a big nightmare for them
2020-06-26 02:03:24 companion_cube ah yeah, DoH, grrr
2020-06-26 02:03:25 krixano2 Do OS's even provide DoT yet?
2020-06-26 02:03:32 @tomasino yes
2020-06-26 02:03:42 @tomasino all android devices can
2020-06-26 02:03:52 krixano2 Well, android isn't all OS's, is it?
2020-06-26 02:03:52 @tomasino linux and windows too
2020-06-26 02:03:57 krixano2 Ah, ok
2020-06-26 02:04:08 @tomasino i don't think osx has DoT yet
2020-06-26 02:04:13 @tomasino but i haven't looked
2020-06-26 02:04:26 @tomasino but anyone can DoH as well if you use a DNS provider that offers it
2020-06-26 02:04:29 @tomasino like cloudflare
2020-06-26 02:04:55 @tomasino I don't want my apps hijacking my DNS because i use a Pi Hole that then passes my requests along
2020-06-26 02:04:59 @tomasino i want to filter them first on my end
2020-06-26 02:05:06 krixano2 Looks like only Windows 10 has DoH
2020-06-26 02:05:07 @tomasino an app ignoring the OS breaks that behavior
2020-06-26 02:05:35 @tomasino NLnet Labs stubby daemon or Knot Resolver, or getdns-utils
2020-06-26 02:05:44 @tomasino those will enable DOT on Windows/Linux
2020-06-26 02:05:47 krixano2 How do you setup DoH/DoT in Linux
2020-06-26 02:06:04 @tomasino systemd-resolvd
2020-06-26 02:06:16 @tomasino /etc/systemd/resolved.conf
2020-06-26 02:06:23 @tomasino it's a flag
2020-06-26 02:06:27 @tomasino just set it to true
2020-06-26 02:07:01 krixano2 And why isn't that on by default? Do you have to make sure you have DoT support by your DNS first or it will break or something?
2020-06-26 02:07:19 @tomasino yes
2020-06-26 02:07:56 @tomasino i'd expect DoT or DoH to be near universally distributed by early 2021
2020-06-26 02:08:08 @tomasino it's had a big roll-out and is gaining momentum quickly
2020-06-26 02:08:09 krixano2 I honestly doubt that will happen
2020-06-26 02:08:33 @tomasino most major os distributions will handle it themselves and users won't have to think about it
2020-06-26 02:08:35 @tomasino like Android did
2020-06-26 02:08:38 krixano2 I honestly doubt my ISP even supports it yet
2020-06-26 02:08:55 krixano2 ISP's in the US are extremely crappy
2020-06-26 02:09:28 @tomasino they are indeed, but the OS can deprecate non DoH or DoT options and prioritize secure alternatives
2020-06-26 02:10:12 krixano2 But then people will complain that the OS is using an unwanted DNS server without their permission, lol
2020-06-26 02:10:15 @tomasino looks like windows already announced that plan
2020-06-26 02:10:30 @tomasino they've rolled out DoH in preview builds
2020-06-26 02:10:44 @tomasino and they're recommending google's dns
2020-06-26 02:11:38 krixano2 How many DoH servers are there actually
2020-06-26 02:11:58 @tomasino a handful of big ones, google, nextdns, cloudflare off teh top of my head
2020-06-26 02:12:15 @tomasino https://www.privacytools.io/providers/dns/
2020-06-26 02:12:43 krixano2 This doesn't look like a whole lot...
2020-06-26 02:13:14 @tomasino they represent quite a large swath of DNS requests online
2020-06-26 02:13:41 @tomasino but more should come
2020-06-26 02:13:57 @tomasino securing dns is good
2020-06-26 02:14:05 @tomasino it's not perfect, but it's better than unsecured dns
2020-06-26 02:14:31 @tomasino using tor is great too
2020-06-26 02:14:34 krixano2 What we need is for ISP's to be supporting DoH, but of course they're allowed to seel user data in the US now (afaik), so is it really in their intrest to do this?
2020-06-26 02:14:46 krixano2 * seel -> sell
2020-06-26 02:15:05 ⚡ tomasino shrugs
2020-06-26 02:15:07 @tomasino we'll see
2020-06-26 02:15:27 @tomasino the US cares about money, so i'm sure they'll make the wrong decision
2020-06-26 02:15:37 @tomasino ban encryption online and cripple their own infrastructure
2020-06-26 02:15:39 @tomasino something like that
2020-06-26 02:16:00 @tomasino but i'm gonna crash
2020-06-26 02:16:03 @tomasino it's 2:15am!
2020-06-26 02:16:07 krixano2 I live in the US... there's actually some republican's in congress trying to ban encryption *yet again*...
2020-06-26 02:16:21 @tomasino toss us your gemini server on tor
2020-06-26 02:16:24 @tomasino start a trend
2020-06-26 02:16:32 @tomasino i'd love to see that be more of a thing
2020-06-26 02:16:34 krixano2 How resource heavy is it though?
2020-06-26 02:16:41 @tomasino gemini or tor?
2020-06-26 02:16:42 krixano2 My server is on an rpi 3b
2020-06-26 02:16:45 krixano2 Tor
2020-06-26 02:16:52 @tomasino tor is very thin
2020-06-26 02:16:59 @tomasino well, not a relay
2020-06-26 02:17:03 @tomasino but a service on tor is tiny
2020-06-26 02:17:05 krixano2 Idk... I'll look into getting it setup
2020-06-26 02:17:23 @tomasino i have info on setting up gopher over tor on my phlog
2020-06-26 02:17:29 @tomasino it's probably relevant for gemini too
2020-06-26 02:17:33 krixano2 Oh, cool! Thanks
2020-06-26 02:17:49 @tomasino gopher://gopher.black/1/phlog/20180427-gopher-black-on-tor-part-1
2020-06-26 02:17:59 @tomasino gopher://gopher.black/1/phlog/20180428-gopher-black-on-tor-part-2
2020-06-26 02:18:10 @tomasino the only thing i'd suggest changing in there is generate a v3 onion
2020-06-26 02:18:15 @tomasino they're more secure
2020-06-26 02:18:49 @tomasino i use https://github.com/cathugger/mkp224o
2020-06-26 02:19:10 @tomasino http://black6kfjetfuzaeozz7fs53whh7xtd4e27telrf5fg5kgdt5ah5plad.onion
2020-06-26 02:19:13 @tomasino tilde.black ^
2020-06-26 02:19:21 krixano2 Ok, Thanks!
2020-06-26 02:19:55 krixano2 Honestly, what would solve all my problems with this encryption stuff is just getting TLS on TOPS-20 and Multics
2020-06-26 02:20:05 krixano2 But I'm not sure how doable that is, lol
2020-06-26 02:20:54 @tomasino :)
2020-06-26 02:21:35 @tomasino i need to read up on jetforce's virtual hosting config. Technically tilde.black is set up for gemini over tor already, but jetforce is only accepting requests from the tilde.black domain, not black6kfjetfuzaeozz7fs53whh7xtd4e27telrf5fg5kgdt5ah5plad.onion
2020-06-26 02:21:41 @tomasino maybe something to do tomorrow
2020-06-26 02:22:21 @tomasino anyway, night!
2020-06-26 02:22:22 @tomasino good luck
2020-06-26 02:23:23 krixano2 Goodnight!
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2020-06-26 09:01:44 @julienxx hi there!
2020-06-26 09:02:08 @xq heyhoh
2020-06-26 09:02:39 @julienxx kensanata: I noticed there are some blank lines at the end in gemini://alexschroeder.ch:1967/full/en/Project_Gemini, I feared my parsing was wrong but it's in the doc it seems
2020-06-26 09:09:30 dkibi heyo
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2020-06-26 10:50:41 @julienxx Reworked my parsing a bit and castor can now display tiwesdaeg capsule colors properly https://ibb.co/FXMvCFT
2020-06-26 10:50:50 @julienxx do you know other colored places?
2020-06-26 11:05:02 thombles oh wow, just tried out kristall for the first time (on kde)
2020-06-26 11:05:06 thombles this thing is sophisticated
2020-06-26 11:06:22 thombles and the source code spells favourite my favourite way
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2020-06-26 12:42:06 ~tiwesdaeg julienxx: gemini://konpeito.media has a color option
2020-06-26 12:42:15 ~tiwesdaeg but it's not up right now
2020-06-26 12:45:29 @julienxx didn't you have colors on your gopher hole?
2020-06-26 12:45:49 @tomasino I have some on pink
2020-06-26 12:49:06 ~tiwesdaeg all the colors
2020-06-26 13:11:54 companion_cube julienxx: are these escape codes? for the colors?
2020-06-26 13:16:54 ~tiwesdaeg yes
2020-06-26 13:20:12 @xq tomasino: thansk for sharing https://ferd.ca/awk-in-20-minutes.html some days ago!
2020-06-26 13:21:27 companion_cube so, the spec is simple, but includes terminal ansi codes? fear :D
2020-06-26 13:21:58 @xq companion_cube: ansi codes are just not covered by the spec
2020-06-26 13:22:04 @xq and are kind of a hack to style your gemini files
2020-06-26 13:22:07 @xq Kristall doesn't support them
2020-06-26 13:29:29 ~tiwesdaeg they look very funny when not supported
2020-06-26 13:29:48 @julienxx companion_cube: colors are absolutely not in the spec
2020-06-26 13:30:03 @julienxx just a funny thing some users use
2020-06-26 13:30:23 ~tiwesdaeg I was playing with them in the early days of gemini when we didn't have very many browsers, but av98 supported them
2020-06-26 13:30:27 ~tiwesdaeg and bombadillo
2020-06-26 13:30:53 @julienxx yes terminals support them naturally without extra work
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2020-06-26 13:45:06 companion_cube yeah, but it shows that every single small extension will be used and abused :)
2020-06-26 13:49:29 @julienxx well you can't stop a terminal from interpreting ansi codes
2020-06-26 13:49:53 companion_cube indeed
2020-06-26 13:50:10 companion_cube it just means some gemini capsules (gemcaps?) will not be gui friendly
2020-06-26 13:52:36 @tomasino You're welcome xq
2020-06-26 13:52:40 @julienxx yep but that's not really an issue for me, if you use colors be prepared for some clients displaying garbage and let the user choose if they want color
2020-06-26 13:53:30 @tomasino The smart ones do what konpeito did and offer both versions
2020-06-26 13:53:40 @tomasino Astrobotany is a fine example
2020-06-26 13:53:48 dkibi are ansi codes always safe? because otherwise it would be wise to filter them out
2020-06-26 13:54:01 @tomasino No, they are not universally safe
2020-06-26 13:54:04 @julienxx they're not
2020-06-26 13:54:22 @tomasino You can strip them or strip noon color ones
2020-06-26 13:54:26 @tomasino Non*
2020-06-26 13:54:56 companion_cube if there was some basic styling in text/gemini the draw to ansi codes would disappear, imho
2020-06-26 13:55:03 companion_cube but then, where do you put a limit :p
2020-06-26 13:55:48 @tomasino I don't expect ansi color to be much of a thing beyond odd spots here and there
2020-06-26 13:55:57 @tomasino Just like in gopher
2020-06-26 13:56:25 @tomasino Though it is tempting to use it and unicode to make really detailed art
2020-06-26 13:58:55 dkibi oh I should put something up on my capsule today, otherwise I break my "one update per week" target
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2020-06-26 14:06:55 ⚡ xq is still tempted to allow svgbob to be included in Kristall
2020-06-26 14:06:55 @xq :D
2020-06-26 14:07:02 @xq so you could render nicer ascii art
2020-06-26 14:10:33 ~tiwesdaeg xq: I tried it on some of my stuff
2020-06-26 14:10:41 @xq results?
2020-06-26 14:10:45 ~tiwesdaeg I would probably have to redo a lot of it
2020-06-26 14:13:33 @xq ah
2020-06-26 14:13:42 @xq i just dumped in the astrobotany cover
2020-06-26 14:13:50 @xq doesn't look good in svgbob
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2020-06-26 14:45:27 ~tiwesdaeg makeworld: you around?
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2020-06-26 15:28:29 @julienxx color support is nice with utf8 chars https://imgur.com/a/9zL60Vg
2020-06-26 15:29:25 @xq i call that cheating
2020-06-26 15:29:49 @xq julienxx: do you know https://github.com/hzeller/timg
2020-06-26 15:30:33 @julienxx I didn't, very cool!
2020-06-26 15:32:29 @xq it's doing exactly that :)
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2020-06-26 17:15:02 @tomasino brilliant
2020-06-26 17:15:05 @tomasino more of that please
2020-06-26 17:15:25 @tomasino client certificate adults only ansi section coming soon
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2020-06-26 19:12:44 kensanata julienxx: Regarding those empty lines. I realised that Elpher does what Solderpunk said we shouldn't do: normalise whitespace between paragraphs. I like it better this way! :D
2020-06-26 19:23:43 makeworld tiwesdaeg: Around now, waht's up?
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2020-06-26 19:51:30 @tomasino xq: your plant is low on water. my can is empty or i'd top you off
2020-06-26 19:53:23 @xq thanks :)
2020-06-26 19:54:19 @tomasino so xq, i wiped qt from my system and then properly installed the latest version
2020-06-26 19:54:30 @tomasino since the ubuntu one was so out of date and i needed a newer version for master pdf editor
2020-06-26 19:54:35 @tomasino anywho, now make throws a fit
2020-06-26 19:54:36 @tomasino :(
2020-06-26 19:55:45 @tomasino something weird wiht qmake
2020-06-26 19:55:47 @tomasino hmmm
2020-06-26 19:56:17 @xq can you tell me the exact error msg?
2020-06-26 19:58:04 @tomasino i fixed it
2020-06-26 19:58:09 @tomasino probably not in the right way
2020-06-26 19:58:16 @xq tomasino -v
2020-06-26 19:58:27 @tomasino i blew away the qmake that was in /usr/bin and simlinked the one in /usr/lib/qt5/bin/
2020-06-26 19:58:40 @tomasino make is working fine now
2020-06-26 19:58:52 @xq ah
2020-06-26 19:59:01 @xq you maybe need to set the QMAKE env var then…
2020-06-26 19:59:51 @tomasino ahh
2020-06-26 19:59:57 @tomasino probably something they'd want me to do
2020-06-26 20:00:00 @tomasino silly ENVs
2020-06-26 20:00:22 @tomasino oooh, pretty new heart icon
2020-06-26 20:03:12 @xq :)
2020-06-26 20:03:24 @xq i should continue with Kristall dev sunday…
2020-06-26 20:03:30 @xq epoch_ derailed me with hackvr :D
2020-06-26 20:03:51 @xq btw, if you have the *latest* version, you should have the new, experiemental markdown rendering :)
2020-06-26 20:04:43 @tomasino oh neat
2020-06-26 20:04:50 @tomasino i'll go check out kensanata's stuff
2020-06-26 20:06:04 kensanata I've switched my wiki to produce Gemini output...
2020-06-26 20:07:32 @xq tomasino: gemini://random-projects.net/torture/index.gemini
2020-06-26 20:07:37 @xq there's a markdown file as well
2020-06-26 20:08:09 @tomasino oh good
2020-06-26 20:08:16 @tomasino i got distracted revoking certs for a bunch of servers that changed
2020-06-26 20:08:23 @tomasino that process is a bit ... unfriendly still
2020-06-26 20:08:37 @tomasino maybe on that warning page you can have a link to open the list and go right to that server?
2020-06-26 20:08:43 @tomasino or even a 1-click revoke
2020-06-26 20:12:43 @tomasino kensanata: your gemini version is now my favorite of your sites to consume
2020-06-26 20:13:14 @xq tomasino: yeah, revoking isn't perfect yet
2020-06-26 20:13:30 @tomasino it's certainly doable
2020-06-26 20:13:42 @xq in theory, it's better this way
2020-06-26 20:13:43 @tomasino i'm not really sure what that experience should be like, to be fair
2020-06-26 20:13:47 @xq but right now it's annoying
2020-06-26 20:14:01 @tomasino i don't want it to do nothing, cause that would be horrible
2020-06-26 20:14:21 kensanata tomasino: I have to confess, I really like zipping around Geminispace as well. :D
2020-06-26 20:16:20 @tomasino oh, kensanata -- https://dungeonscrawl.com/
2020-06-26 20:16:27 @tomasino in case it wasn't on your radar already
2020-06-26 20:19:10 kensanata tomasino: Oh wow, that looks great!
2020-06-26 20:19:27 @tomasino It's spectacular
2020-06-26 20:19:46 @tomasino I played with it yesterday and the claim is true. I made a full dungeon in 10 min
2020-06-26 20:21:03 kensanata Awesome.
2020-06-26 20:54:42 ▬▬▶ acdw has joined #gemini
2020-06-26 21:01:34 acdw hello geminauts
2020-06-26 21:03:55 @xq hello acdw
2020-06-26 21:04:31 acdw how's the space? I gotta say I've been checking CAPCOM like crazy and I am reading thru the content way too fast
2020-06-26 21:07:28 @tomasino yo
2020-06-26 21:07:34 @tomasino good good
2020-06-26 21:07:41 @tomasino i'm gonna do another of christina's questions tonight
2020-06-26 21:08:25 krixano2 Why did my username change to krixano2?
2020-06-26 21:08:30 @tomasino magic
2020-06-26 21:08:42 acdw oh that's right -- you're doing them s l o w
2020-06-26 21:08:55 krixano2 I think users disconnect and reconnect at midnight or something?
2020-06-26 21:09:14 krixano2 But... my normal username wouldn't have been in use then...
2020-06-26 21:10:04 krixano2 > I think users disconnect and reconnect at midnight or something?
2020-06-26 21:10:10 krixano2 Actually, that's not true I guess
2020-06-26 21:10:22 krixano2 It seemed like it one day though...
2020-06-26 21:17:45 acdw can you change your nick back?
2020-06-26 21:18:54 ℹ xq is now known as krixano
2020-06-26 21:18:56 @krixano no he cant!
2020-06-26 21:18:58 @krixano *rofl*
2020-06-26 21:19:01 ℹ krixano is now known as xq
2020-06-26 21:20:14 acdw :O
2020-06-26 21:47:31 @tomasino kensanata: https://ttm.sh/QZt.jpg
2020-06-26 21:48:02 @tomasino basic layout in place... now i'm beginning to add "stuff" to the map starting in the top left
2020-06-26 21:48:39 @tomasino my grid scale is unimportant since this is a fate game
2020-06-26 21:48:51 @xq wow, crazy
2020-06-26 21:49:59 kensanata Heh
2020-06-26 21:50:08 @tomasino this was an underground bunker established by the british army during WW2 that has been recently vacated. This castle/building was a code-breaking center
2020-06-26 21:50:27 @tomasino my crew of misfits will be exploring it in their upcoming game, unless they take another left-hand turn
2020-06-26 21:54:48 @xq when you want to try if a Qt feature fits your use case and this happens:
2020-06-26 21:54:48 @xq https://mq32.de/public/kristall-08.mp4
2020-06-26 21:54:58 @xq this was literally 5 lines of code
2020-06-26 21:57:01 @tomasino fuzzy bookmark findinG?
2020-06-26 21:57:09 @xq non-fuzzy, but yes
2020-06-26 21:57:16 @xq bookmark completions from the search bar
2020-06-26 21:58:03 @tomasino that's awesome
2020-06-26 21:58:26 @xq yep
2020-06-26 21:58:40 @xq i'm thinking about adding a actual css parser for style sheets
2020-06-26 21:58:59 @tomasino is there a benefit?
2020-06-26 21:59:16 @xq readability and flexibility for the future
2020-06-26 22:13:54 companion_cube well, made a package for kristall for arch
2020-06-26 22:15:41 @xq *rofl*
2020-06-26 22:15:49 @xq i can now install my own software via AUR
2020-06-26 22:16:20 @xq thanks :)
2020-06-26 22:16:22 companion_cube :DDDD
2020-06-26 22:16:34 companion_cube well you might cringe at how bad I am at packaging
2020-06-26 22:16:40 @xq i might be worse
2020-06-26 22:16:42 @xq even
2020-06-26 22:16:58 @xq but would be cool if people could help me out here with packaging for other distros :)
2020-06-26 22:18:39 companion_cube this browser looks good!
2020-06-26 22:20:13 companion_cube what's the diff between -> and => ?
2020-06-26 22:21:08 companion_cube any chance of having tabs, xq ?
2020-06-26 22:21:54 @xq companion_cube: press ctlr+t
2020-06-26 22:22:00 companion_cube ah!
2020-06-26 22:22:09 companion_cube middle mouse button doesn't open in a tab though :)
2020-06-26 22:22:19 companion_cube but cool
2020-06-26 22:22:31 @xq <companion_cube> middle mouse button doesn't open in a tab though :)
2020-06-26 22:22:35 @xq working on that *in the moment*
2020-06-26 22:22:39 @xq <companion_cube> what's the diff between -> and => ?
2020-06-26 22:22:40 companion_cube heheheh
2020-06-26 22:23:23 @xq → is a internal link (same host), ⇒ is external link (different host)
2020-06-26 22:24:10 companion_cube ah that's nice.
2020-06-26 22:24:28 @xq yeah, you'll see some things in Kristall you will pretty quickly miss in classic web browsers
2020-06-26 22:24:34 @xq also, you really should open the settings :D
2020-06-26 22:24:41 @xq and check out everything
2020-06-26 22:24:57 acdw xq: if I ever figure out Void packaging, I'll do Kristall
2020-06-26 22:25:08 @xq ♥
2020-06-26 22:25:44 companion_cube I guess qt gives you a lot for free
2020-06-26 22:26:06 @xq yep
2020-06-26 22:26:10 @xq that's why i've used it
2020-06-26 22:26:17 @xq was thinking about building a zig-based client
2020-06-26 22:26:22 @xq but UI isn't just there yet
2020-06-26 22:26:36 companion_cube ahah nice, I can still visit https
2020-06-26 22:27:00 companion_cube I think a "home" button would be nice
2020-06-26 22:27:15 @xq Ctrl+H does the job
2020-06-26 22:27:19 @xq or navigation→go to home
2020-06-26 22:27:30 @xq will be less necessary soon :)
2020-06-26 22:27:57 companion_cube "Craete new certificate" typo in the cert manager
2020-06-26 22:28:39 companion_cube no ctrl-f in the page, hmm
2020-06-26 22:29:13 @xq ctrl-f is on the TODO
2020-06-26 22:29:21 companion_cube wow, the certificate manager is amazing
2020-06-26 22:32:52 acdw has quit (Client exited)
2020-06-26 22:34:36 @xq (Uᵔ ᴥ ᵔU)
2020-06-26 22:37:56 @tomasino ctrl-f ftw
2020-06-26 22:38:04 @tomasino xq is killing it
2020-06-26 22:38:48 @xq tomasino: improved back navigation will come, too!
2020-06-26 22:38:59 @tomasino rawk on
2020-06-26 22:38:59 @xq (using cached contents and scroll position remembering)
2020-06-26 22:40:39 ⚡ xq just removed the ability to click links
2020-06-26 22:40:40 @xq LOL
2020-06-26 22:41:32 @tomasino links are overrated
2020-06-26 22:41:36 @xq haha
2020-06-26 22:41:37 @tomasino just have it randomly drive for you
2020-06-26 22:41:49 @xq nah, the plan is way better!
2020-06-26 22:41:59 @xq make middle clicks open into new tab
2020-06-26 22:42:05 @tomasino oh please!
2020-06-26 22:42:14 @tomasino i do that so much and then have to correct myself
2020-06-26 22:42:18 @tomasino and middle-click to close a tab
2020-06-26 22:42:23 @xq <tomasino> and middle-click to close a tab
2020-06-26 22:42:25 @xq done already!
2020-06-26 22:42:27 @xq just not pushed
2020-06-26 22:42:34 @tomasino yisss
2020-06-26 22:42:39 @tomasino i'm running out of badass ideas for you
2020-06-26 22:42:49 @tomasino you're doing it all
2020-06-26 22:43:10 @tomasino I'll give you my text processing algorithms and you can build an RSVP player inside Kristall
2020-06-26 22:43:16 @xq have you looked at the ROADMAP.md? :D
2020-06-26 22:43:18 @tomasino it's optimized for english, though
2020-06-26 22:43:20 @tomasino nope!
2020-06-26 22:43:34 @xq https://github.com/MasterQ32/kristall/blob/master/ROADMAP.md
2020-06-26 22:43:36 @xq check it out
2020-06-26 22:43:38 @tomasino looking in a sec
2020-06-26 22:43:42 @tomasino gonna jump on tilderadio
2020-06-26 22:44:01 ▬▬▶ thewetcrab has joined #gemini
2020-06-26 22:44:32 thewetcrab Hi, Anyone here got experience of running or using scuttlebutt?
2020-06-26 22:45:38 thewetcrab Also pigeon protocol looks interesting and might be of interest to some people here - https://tildegit.org/PigeonProtocolConsortium/protocol_spec
2020-06-26 22:46:26 krjst has quit (Client exited)
2020-06-26 22:56:21 @xq \o/
2020-06-26 22:56:27 @xq middle-click for new tab works
2020-06-26 22:56:46 xj9 has left #gemini
2020-06-26 23:01:41 companion_cube nice!
2020-06-26 23:01:47 lvgx has quit (Ping timeout: 120 seconds)
2020-06-26 23:01:57 companion_cube scuttlebutt seems super complicated :/
2020-06-26 23:02:06 companion_cube I wish there was a gemini-like simplification of it :p
2020-06-26 23:04:29 thewetcrab Hi companion_cube 0/
2020-06-26 23:04:34 thewetcrab good to see you again :)
2020-06-26 23:05:29 ▬▬▶ lvgx has joined #gemini
2020-06-26 23:06:53 companion_cube \o
2020-06-26 23:06:59 @tomasino o/
2020-06-26 23:07:32 thewetcrab o/
2020-06-26 23:07:40 thewetcrab damn!
2020-06-26 23:10:20 @xq you're doing it wrong. do it right:
2020-06-26 23:10:21 @xq \o/
2020-06-26 23:14:36 krixano2 Yes, I can obviously change my name back. That doesn't answer why it was changed in the first place
2020-06-26 23:15:26 @xq krixano2: disconnect, and too fast reconnect
2020-06-26 23:15:34 @xq IP change → you're still connected to IRC for the server
2020-06-26 23:17:17 krixano2 has quit (Client exited)
2020-06-26 23:33:55 @xq haha, this push is gonna be awesome
2020-06-26 23:36:54 thewetcrab has quit (Client exited)
2020-06-26 23:39:03 @xq tomasino, companion_cube: Ctrl-F works, Middle-Clicking links and tabs as well
2020-06-26 23:39:56 companion_cube nice
2020-06-26 23:40:04 companion_cube however I packaged a release, not the git version :)
2020-06-26 23:41:09 @xq reasonable!
2020-06-26 23:44:46 kensanata has quit (Ping timeout: 120 seconds)
2020-06-27 00:00:39 @tomasino gonna pull
2020-06-27 00:01:09 @xq next thing i wanna tackle is improved favourite organisation
2020-06-27 00:01:56 @xq i know a lot of people like deeply nested folders, but i will probably stick to a similar structure seen in the cert manager
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2020-06-27 12:30:27 @tomasino Who was I just talking to here about DoT and DoH? https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/06/comcast-mozilla-strike-privacy-deal-to-encrypt-dns-lookups-in-firefox/
2020-06-27 13:10:41 ⚡ tiwesdaeg was out counting baby chicks
2020-06-27 13:10:55 ~tiwesdaeg 5 of 7 hatched
2020-06-27 13:20:29 bard What's the status of gemini clients on Android? I see none on F-Droid, but I thought I heard someone made one.
2020-06-27 13:24:12 ~tiwesdaeg there's deedum
2020-06-27 13:24:26 ~tiwesdaeg is that what you're talking about on f-droid?
2020-06-27 13:24:32 ~tiwesdaeg deedum is in the play store
2020-06-27 14:35:59 inex even though it was hard i finally found it https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=ca.snoe.deedum
2020-06-27 14:47:11 @xq bard: Kristall is sadly not ready yet for Android :(
2020-06-27 14:48:38 bard tiwesdaeg: I meant to say I found none on F-Droid, and separately that I'd heard someone made an Android app, and so I wondered what/where it was if it was not on F-Droid
2020-06-27 14:49:10 bard probably not gonna bother with the play store but I'd maybe grab an apk from github or something
2020-06-27 14:49:49 bard xq: has anyone tried to run Kristall on postmarketOS or some other distro on the PinePhone that you know of? I wonder if it'd be able to scale well
2020-06-27 14:50:04 ⚡ xq needs to poke a friend
2020-06-27 14:50:24 @xq it will probably work, but will be the same level of unpleasant as Kristall on Android
2020-06-27 14:53:11 ~tiwesdaeg xq: my icons are missing for back forward reload
2020-06-27 14:53:23 @xq huh, weird…
2020-06-27 14:53:27 @xq other icons are there?
2020-06-27 14:53:31 @xq (like in the menus)
2020-06-27 14:54:28 ~tiwesdaeg https://ttm.sh/QLi.png
2020-06-27 14:54:49 ~tiwesdaeg also in the menus
2020-06-27 14:55:22 ~tiwesdaeg https://ttm.sh/QLb.png
2020-06-27 14:55:59 ~tiwesdaeg I want to say there was a cert icon too
2020-06-27 14:56:56 ~tiwesdaeg https://ttm.sh/QLP.png
2020-06-27 14:57:39 @xq weird
2020-06-27 14:57:41 @xq what OS?
2020-06-27 14:58:09 ~tiwesdaeg manjaro
2020-06-27 14:58:30 ~tiwesdaeg I think it's fun when our builds end up different ;P
2020-06-27 14:59:02 ~tiwesdaeg since manjaro is just arch with a nice installer and some fancy theming
2020-06-27 15:01:32 @xq yeah
2020-06-27 15:01:46 @xq did you do a clean build?
2020-06-27 15:04:52 ~tiwesdaeg I ran make clean
2020-06-27 15:05:11 ~tiwesdaeg let me just wipe it all and try again
2020-06-27 15:07:10 @xq i still assume that it's the WM doing things
2020-06-27 15:09:10 dozens tiwesdaeg: i've been enjoying your gemini erisian content :)
2020-06-27 15:09:48 ~tiwesdaeg thanks!
2020-06-27 15:09:54 ~tiwesdaeg I need to post another
2020-06-27 15:10:08 ~tiwesdaeg the goal is to wrap it all up in to one book at the end
2020-06-27 15:17:12 ▬▬▶ kensanata has joined #gemini
2020-06-27 15:21:01 makeworld Hey tiwesdaeg, what did you @ me for the other day?
2020-06-27 15:26:29 ~tiwesdaeg makeworld: your md2gmi script
2020-06-27 15:26:45 makeworld Oh yeah, what about it?
2020-06-27 15:26:54 ~tiwesdaeg it seemed to ignore two spaces after a line
2020-06-27 15:27:02 ~tiwesdaeg which in md means \n
2020-06-27 15:27:31 makeworld Can you send me a test example markdown file?
2020-06-27 15:27:41 ~tiwesdaeg sure
2020-06-27 15:27:43 makeworld Also make sure you're using version 1.5.0
2020-06-27 15:28:44 makeworld I probably should've named it md2gmi lol, you're right
2020-06-27 15:29:09 @tomasino hiya
2020-06-27 15:29:19 ~tiwesdaeg yeah, I was just guessing on the name ;P
2020-06-27 15:29:42 makeworld Haha, it's actually md2gemini
2020-06-27 15:31:07 makeworld Anyway, the proper behaviour is that for a paragraph divide, indicated by two newlines in markdown, md2gemini will insert a single empty line in-between
2020-06-27 15:33:33 ~tiwesdaeg makeworld: https://ttm.sh/QLw.md
2020-06-27 15:34:35 makeworld And what args are you running it with, what's the command?
2020-06-27 15:35:18 ~tiwesdaeg just -w
2020-06-27 15:35:42 ~tiwesdaeg so 'md2gemini -w file.md'
2020-06-27 15:36:14 ~tiwesdaeg it looks like two spaces was in the original and commonmark standards
2020-06-27 15:36:37 makeworld Oh I see, so some or your lines have 2 spaces after them, which according the MD spec means "don't join the line"?
2020-06-27 15:36:47 ~tiwesdaeg correct
2020-06-27 15:36:57 ~tiwesdaeg that's a \n or <br>
2020-06-27 15:37:14 makeworld Does it mean new paragraph, or just leave the linebreak?
2020-06-27 15:37:19 ~tiwesdaeg line break
2020-06-27 15:37:32 ~tiwesdaeg shouldn't be a space rendered between the two lines
2020-06-27 15:37:41 makeworld Anyway, it could be an issue with the library I'm using, but it's more likely my code. I will file a bug and fix this
2020-06-27 15:37:45 makeworld Ok, good to know thanks
2020-06-27 15:38:01 ~tiwesdaeg if that were the case, I would just put a space between the two lines ;P
2020-06-27 15:38:07 ~tiwesdaeg then I wouldn't have this issue
2020-06-27 15:39:21 ~tiwesdaeg it's really nice though being able to have the markdown file paragraphs formatted to say 80 characters wide, then converted to one line for gemini
2020-06-27 15:39:31 ~tiwesdaeg that part works prefectly
2020-06-27 15:39:56 makeworld I was happy to see that too!
2020-06-27 15:40:22 makeworld Ok, so I'll work on this
2020-06-27 15:40:37 ~tiwesdaeg thanks!
2020-06-27 15:41:08 ~tiwesdaeg I'm working on publishing in html and gmi for a project and want to keep the base files as markdown
2020-06-27 15:41:21 makeworld Wait, which line has the extra spaces?
2020-06-27 15:41:36 makeworld Yeah, that seems like a good way to do things
2020-06-27 15:41:37 ~tiwesdaeg line 3 does
2020-06-27 15:41:44 ~tiwesdaeg and ..
2020-06-27 15:41:57 ~tiwesdaeg 31
2020-06-27 15:42:12 ~tiwesdaeg uh oh
2020-06-27 15:42:16 ~tiwesdaeg I think they got stripped
2020-06-27 15:42:29 makeworld Yeah I was looking at the hexdump
2020-06-27 15:42:32 makeworld They're not there
2020-06-27 15:42:40 ~tiwesdaeg freebsd curl didn't like ttm.sh
2020-06-27 15:42:46 ~tiwesdaeg so I copied and pasted
2020-06-27 15:42:49 makeworld Ah
2020-06-27 15:42:53 ~tiwesdaeg let me add them in the right spots, one sec
2020-06-27 15:43:24 ~tiwesdaeg https://ttm.sh/QLq.md
2020-06-27 15:44:06 ~tiwesdaeg ok, they were preserved in the upload
2020-06-27 15:44:30 ~tiwesdaeg I'll remember that when copying from a terminal program in the future
2020-06-27 15:45:15 ~tiwesdaeg nice, xfce4's mousepad comes with markdown highlighting
2020-06-27 15:45:17 tuesday has quit (Ping timeout: 120 seconds)
2020-06-27 15:45:25 ~tiwesdaeg it shows the double spaces as yellow
2020-06-27 15:45:28 ~tiwesdaeg uh oh
2020-06-27 15:45:54 makeworld What?
2020-06-27 15:46:02 ~tiwesdaeg my other client left
2020-06-27 15:46:40 ▬▬▶ tuesday has joined #gemini
2020-06-27 15:48:56 makeworld Hmm
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2020-06-27 18:15:05 makeworld tiwesdaeg: I forgot to tell you sorry, I filed this issue: https://github.com/makeworld-the-better-one/md2gemini/issues/18
2020-06-27 18:15:20 makeworld I'll let you know when I fix this, probably today or tomorrow
2020-06-27 18:15:49 ~tiwesdaeg neat, thanks!
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2020-06-27 18:19:19 makeworld Welcome, thanks for finding it
2020-06-27 19:49:09 ▬▬▶ lukee has joined #gemini
2020-06-27 19:50:21 lukee hi fellow travellers
2020-06-27 19:51:07 lukee just back from a few days deep diving into gopher, polishing the gopher interface in GemiNaut
2020-06-27 19:51:41 lukee read quite a bit of content along the way, to check it all renders OK
2020-06-27 19:52:31 lukee Somewhat disappointed that Veronica just searches the gophermap entries. So most of the content in gopher is invisible unless you know what it has been called
2020-06-27 19:52:43 lukee seems to defeat the point of a search engine to me!
2020-06-27 19:53:06 login at once time, all search was only directory search
2020-06-27 19:53:13 login the gophermaps are suppoesd to be good indexes
2020-06-27 19:53:22 lukee At least GUS and Houston index the actual content. I think this is a real benefit of gemini - we have a decent search engine
2020-06-27 19:53:34 lukee hi login
2020-06-27 19:54:06 lukee yes but which ones are relevant? and you cannot index a whole article by a title.
2020-06-27 19:54:21 login hi likee
2020-06-27 19:54:23 login *lukee
2020-06-27 19:54:27 lukee Somewhat ironic that Gopher came out of library services. But perhaps that is how librarians see the world!
2020-06-27 19:54:53 lukee "never mind the content" what shelf is it on?
2020-06-27 19:55:00 login only place where the content of books can be searched (at least, books published more than entirely privately) is google books and similar search engines)
2020-06-27 19:55:02 lukee I'm being harsh
2020-06-27 19:55:21 login how are GUS and Houston able to index the actual content
2020-06-27 19:55:24 lukee I think gopher is cute
2020-06-27 19:55:26 login and are those indexes in gophermap format?
2020-06-27 19:55:54 lukee no those are gemini search engines
2020-06-27 19:56:29 lukee they actually must pull back the linked content, and index that. Well the text/* content anyway.
2020-06-27 19:57:24 ▬▬▶ siina has joined #gemini
2020-06-27 19:58:17 lukee It's helped me understand some of the thinking in gemini, seeing what is done in gopher
2020-06-27 19:58:56 lukee what are you all up to today?
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2020-06-27 20:01:50 siina Getting my first gemini page up
2020-06-27 20:04:01 lukee congratulations - where are you hosting it?
2020-06-27 20:06:07 makeworld login: GUS indexes the actual content by downloading it and then creating an index of the words
2020-06-27 20:06:30 makeworld It uses Whoosh: https://whoosh.readthedocs.io/en/latest/
2020-06-27 20:08:09 lukee makeworld: I just tested unicode bullets in windows.
2020-06-27 20:08:30 lukee If I use cmder I can past the bullet character into the shell
2020-06-27 20:08:55 lukee but then running amfora from within the shell I get the "unrecognised code point" character
2020-06-27 20:10:01 makeworld Hmm
2020-06-27 20:10:21 makeworld I will add that to the issue in a moment, feel free to beat me to it
2020-06-27 20:10:23 lukee just to confirm - its this one right?
2020-06-27 20:10:24 lukee https://www.compart.com/en/unicode/U+2022
2020-06-27 20:11:19 makeworld Aha so actually Amfora uses U+1F784 by accident. In the master I fixed it to use U+2022 today
2020-06-27 20:11:34 lukee windows default terminal seems to use "OEM 850 Latin 1 code page". and I can't paste the character in
2020-06-27 20:11:44 lukee ..into windows default terminal
2020-06-27 20:12:07 makeworld What about cmder?
2020-06-27 20:12:15 makeworld Like will U+1F784 work in cmder I mean
2020-06-27 20:12:30 lukee yes I can paste into cmder. I made sure it was using UTF 8
2020-06-27 20:12:42 makeworld Hmm
2020-06-27 20:12:46 lukee should I pull the latest from github?
2020-06-27 20:13:04 makeworld Yeah, try that. I can also build a binary for you if you want
2020-06-27 20:13:08 makeworld Up to you
2020-06-27 20:13:18 lukee still you would hope it should even support U+1F784 as well
2020-06-27 20:13:37 lukee I have Go here, so let me try to build it
2020-06-27 20:13:40 makeworld Yeah it should, especially if Cmder works with it, it's strage
2020-06-27 20:13:43 makeworld *strange
2020-06-27 20:13:47 makeworld Yeah ok
2020-06-27 20:13:53 makeworld What Go version? Just in case
2020-06-27 20:14:27 lukee 1.14.3 amd64
2020-06-27 20:15:54 makeworld Yeah okay, should be good
2020-06-27 20:16:06 makeworld And I'll add stuff to the issue, don't worry
2020-06-27 20:17:21 makeworld Let me know if it works
2020-06-27 20:17:46 ⚡ lukee is go getting amfora
2020-06-27 20:18:37 makeworld Oh, that will take a while...
2020-06-27 20:18:43 makeworld Lot of deps lol
2020-06-27 20:18:54 makeworld That's the tradeoff I made
2020-06-27 20:18:59 lukee I'll put the kettle on.
2020-06-27 20:19:05 makeworld Lol
2020-06-27 20:19:23 lukee there's no shame to building on other peoples work!
2020-06-27 20:19:45 mhj has quit (Ping timeout: 120 seconds)
2020-06-27 20:20:01 lukee unless you are at the top of a house of cards and you can't see the bottom beneath the clouds...
2020-06-27 20:20:30 lukee Its one of the things I like about Go (I'm learning it at the moment).
2020-06-27 20:20:53 lukee whatever deps you have... eventually you just get a single binary :)
2020-06-27 20:21:03 makeworld Yeah, it's great
2020-06-27 20:21:09 makeworld I learned it a little while ago
2020-06-27 20:21:18 makeworld During quarantine
2020-06-27 20:21:47 makeworld Anyway, at worst I'm annoyed at some of the deps that should be optional but aren't
2020-06-27 20:21:48 lukee oh. the server "hung up unexpectedly". trying again
2020-06-27 20:21:57 makeworld Hmm, what server?
2020-06-27 20:22:56 lukee github then gitlab. Probably my flaky internet connection
2020-06-27 20:23:14 lukee its built it now
2020-06-27 20:24:36 lukee wehey the bullets are visible now in cmder :)
2020-06-27 20:26:42 makeworld Ayy
2020-06-27 20:26:46 makeworld Great!
2020-06-27 20:27:00 makeworld It's strange the others didn't work, but I'm glad it works now
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2020-06-27 20:28:05 makeworld I'll close the issue if you're good?
2020-06-27 20:28:36 lukee yeah - fine with me. If anything else comes up I'll get in touch
2020-06-27 20:28:37 lukee https://imgur.com/a/NJnnt2o
2020-06-27 20:29:45 makeworld Alright, great!
2020-06-27 20:30:14 lukee Actually it looks OK just by double clicking, so you dont need cmder now
2020-06-27 20:30:24 lukee but cmder is pretty
2020-06-27 20:30:43 makeworld Wait does it work in Windows Terminal too?
2020-06-27 20:30:45 makeworld The bullets I mean
2020-06-27 20:31:28 makeworld Oh I understand, so it does work in the default terminal
2020-06-27 20:32:09 makeworld Having it work with double clicking is nice, for regular command line apps users would have to open a terminal and find the binary first
2020-06-27 20:32:11 lukee yes. This is what I get if I just double click the exe
2020-06-27 20:32:12 lukee https://imgur.com/a/NAzYl2m
2020-06-27 20:32:34 makeworld Oh ok nice, it just doesn't have the right colours
2020-06-27 20:32:53 makeworld Hmm even in Cmder the colours are wrong though
2020-06-27 20:33:41 lukee I also just tried running from the command line from Cmd.exe (old windows shell) and powershell - bullets fine in both
2020-06-27 20:34:07 makeworld Great!
2020-06-27 20:34:21 makeworld Idk how I ended up using the wrong Unicode character
2020-06-27 20:34:25 makeworld Must have copied the wrong one
2020-06-27 20:34:37 makeworld Bc they look exactly the same in most fonts
2020-06-27 20:34:42 lukee I think cmder has some basic theming - it has a sort of dark brown background (semi transparent).
2020-06-27 20:35:30 makeworld Hmm yeah, but Amfora should override that when it displays a colour
2020-06-27 20:35:38 makeworld But I guess that functionality doesn't work well on Windows
2020-06-27 20:35:46 lukee I can't say I really understand how fonts work in Windows terminal. Surely the unicode code point should just render if it is valid
2020-06-27 20:35:59 lukee even the other bullet you used?
2020-06-27 20:36:13 makeworld Yeah, I really don't know
2020-06-27 20:36:27 siina lukee: tanelorn.city
2020-06-27 20:36:37 siina gemini://tanelorn.city/~siina
2020-06-27 20:37:08 siina Nothing really there yet, since I'm setting up other things at the moment.
2020-06-27 20:37:28 lukee makeworld: Ah well. On to other problems for now then :)
2020-06-27 20:38:00 lukee siina: a journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step
2020-06-27 20:38:06 siina As it always does :D
2020-06-27 20:39:19 makeworld Nice
2020-06-27 20:39:27 makeworld lukee: Yep, definitely don't care about that lol
2020-06-27 20:39:32 makeworld Moving on...
2020-06-27 20:40:03 @ben https://tildegit.org/user/sign_up
2020-06-27 20:40:09 @ben i added a notice here on the signup page
2020-06-27 20:40:21 @ben saw another person confused by that on the list
2020-06-27 20:41:26 makeworld Yes I saw them
2020-06-27 20:41:41 @ben hopefully this helps explain why it's not working :)
2020-06-27 20:41:43 makeworld Why don't you put your email up on there too ben?
2020-06-27 20:41:58 @ben ah not a bad idea
2020-06-27 20:42:01 @ben that would work too
2020-06-27 20:42:07 makeworld I didn't have IRC before this, email will be a lot more accessible
2020-06-27 20:42:31 makeworld 👍
2020-06-27 20:42:57 @ben added
2020-06-27 20:43:13 @ben whaaat
2020-06-27 20:43:15 @ben irc is the best
2020-06-27 20:43:22 @ben and webchat is linked there for easy access
2020-06-27 20:43:31 @ben i much prefer irc
2020-06-27 20:45:03 makeworld It's good, but lots of people don't have it is my point
2020-06-27 20:45:09 @ben fair
2020-06-27 20:48:02 makeworld Woah have y'all seen https://gemlog.blue/
2020-06-27 20:48:06 makeworld Pretty cool
2020-06-27 20:48:12 makeworld There was a post on the ml about it
2020-06-27 20:48:48 lukee sigh - we need to be able to do this kind of thing *in Gemini*
2020-06-27 20:48:53 lukee it is cool though
2020-06-27 20:49:53 lukee at the moment, a lack of non-idempotent query params (like HTTP POST) limits it
2020-06-27 20:51:37 makeworld The limit is on purpose, but being able to do it in browser could be cool yeah
2020-06-27 20:51:52 makeworld Probably should be a separate protocol though
2020-06-27 20:51:55 lukee well you can do that in gopher, before they adopted URLS
2020-06-27 20:52:01 makeworld The titan convo seems to have died down which is too bad
2020-06-27 20:52:48 lukee I dont agree, I think it is a missing piece of the jigsaw for building simple apps in gemini
2020-06-27 20:53:19 lukee I'm sure it could be done if the will is there to find a way
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2020-06-27 20:55:14 lukee one idea I had was to say there can be an optional message posted to a gemini url
2020-06-27 20:55:55 lukee so instead of gemini://server/path/endpoint?percent-encoded-idempotent-message
2020-06-27 20:56:23 lukee there could also be gemini://server/path/endpoint<space>percent-encoded-idempotent-message
2020-06-27 20:57:14 lukee and just like HTTP post we say the browser must not cache such Urls, and they are not shareable (due to space char)
2020-06-27 20:58:05 lukee its not as rich as a full HTTP post with content-type/length params, but it would be enough for basic text based idempotent applications in gemini
2020-06-27 20:58:48 lukee we could have wiki editing within gemini then, and other simple applications that go beyond "send this query to a search engine"
2020-06-27 20:59:56 lukee urgh got my idempotent and non-idempotent mixed up there a bit!
2020-06-27 21:00:18 lukee the URL is the idempotent one, the message submitted after a space is the non-idempotent one!
2020-06-27 21:11:34 makeworld Interesting
2020-06-27 21:12:06 makeworld I understand Solderpunk wanting to keep Gemini simple and mostly for reading though
2020-06-27 21:12:48 lukee (I just created a new issue as I felt left out now ;-)
2020-06-27 21:13:08 lukee (would be nice to support common keyboard shortcuts for back/forward ALT+LEFT/RIGHT
2020-06-27 21:13:59 lukee I can understand that as a goal, but it is never stated that Gemini is just for reading.
2020-06-27 21:15:11 lukee and besides Gopher had this, way back in the day. So, its not quite right to say Gemini is pitched between Gopher and the Web
2020-06-27 21:20:55 makeworld Yeah, idk. I think it would complicate things, and I'd be happy with having a companion protocol instead
2020-06-27 21:21:03 makeworld And thanks for filing the issue!
2020-06-27 21:21:04 makeworld I replied
2020-06-27 21:23:58 lukee A companion protocol could work, if it were adopted. It seems a way to kick the problem into the long grass if you ask me.
2020-06-27 21:26:08 lukee and if complexity were a real barrier, surely all the TLS shenanigans would have been ditched a long time ago ;)
2020-06-27 21:26:37 lukee anyway I should probably put the hobby horse back in its stable for now!
2020-06-27 21:27:24 ⚡ lukee leads the hobby horse home to bed for the night
2020-06-27 21:27:24 makeworld TLS is a different kind of complexity though
2020-06-27 21:27:35 makeworld Ha
2020-06-27 21:29:05 lukee its an interesting meta point of protocol design - which values get burnt into the spec and other left to one side
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2020-06-27 21:37:15 companion_cube this is a good thought experiment: if gemini was to become more popular, and thus more attractive to ad networks and business people
2020-06-27 21:37:48 companion_cube how would the current community avoid new gemini browsers from implementing http-like spec extensions?
2020-06-27 21:38:08 companion_cube (with upload, forms, etc. and maybe even javascripts)
2020-06-27 21:38:14 companion_cube s/avoid/prevent/
2020-06-27 21:38:55 makeworld Well the obvious place to add extension would be the mime type, as well as just the protocol. So clients could send a URL like mycustomproto:// to the server
2020-06-27 21:39:18 makeworld And the META mime type could have extra params, like 'text/gemini; mydata=foo'
2020-06-27 21:39:28 companion_cube yeah
2020-06-27 21:39:35 companion_cube embrace, extend, extinguish is a threat
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2020-06-27 21:39:57 makeworld Idk if it actually is, like it hasn't been for Gopher
2020-06-27 21:40:05 makeworld But anyway extensions are possible
2020-06-27 21:40:27 lukee the ad networks will much prefer the web
2020-06-27 21:40:27 companion_cube I mean, if it ever becomes popular
2020-06-27 21:40:50 lukee If aliens come and invade planet earth, how will we repel them?
2020-06-27 21:40:57 makeworld Yeah I guess. I still doubt it would lead to a lot of extensions, but maybe
2020-06-27 21:41:38 companion_cube ah well, lukee, that seems a lot more unlikely :p
2020-06-27 21:41:51 lukee you reckon? :)
2020-06-27 21:43:44 lukee I am seriously skeptical it will find mainstream adoption. That's fine
2020-06-27 21:43:54 lukee its for us, not them
2020-06-27 21:44:17 companion_cube I seem to recall
2020-06-27 21:44:30 companion_cube that on the mailing list, solderpunk mentionned he'd like it to become more popular
2020-06-27 21:44:30 lukee Ultimately there is no way of holding back the future apart from living in the past
2020-06-27 21:44:34 companion_cube but yeah, I don't think so
2020-06-27 21:44:54 lukee There is always a retreat to gopher+tls
2020-06-27 21:44:57 companion_cube lukee: but you can design the protocol in ways it's less easy to extend :)
2020-06-27 21:45:14 lukee yes that's the party line
2020-06-27 21:45:27 companion_cube I liked thd point about "which values get burnt into the spec"
2020-06-27 21:47:12 lukee thanks - the values are always there, sometimes hidden
2020-06-27 21:47:49 lukee I think all protocols should state on page 1: "This is the final word on the matter, not comebacks"
2020-06-27 21:47:59 lukee not -> no
2020-06-27 21:48:55 lukee it is a challenge to pitch it right. Do we really understand who the ultimate market is for the spec? I think it is only a guess at best
2020-06-27 21:49:24 lukee *people like us*
2020-06-27 21:49:31 lukee techno-contrarians
2020-06-27 21:50:12 lukee I think there is a wider audience of writers and mild-refusniks not just hard liners
2020-06-27 21:51:00 lukee but reaching them is a challenge, when we've all been collectively trained on the web.
2020-06-27 21:51:20 lukee network effects will ultimately determine the wider adoption or not
2020-06-27 21:58:01 companion_cube and it's also hard to self-host if you're not a bit of a sysadmin
2020-06-27 21:58:05 companion_cube (at least a tiny bit)
2020-06-27 21:58:23 companion_cube someone could be the wordpress of gemini :p
2020-06-27 22:00:59 lukee except it would be 3 order of magnitude simpler :)
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2020-06-27 22:11:09 makeworld gemlog.blue
2020-06-27 22:11:23 makeworld There's your Wordpress :)
2020-06-27 22:11:37 lukee I feel this conversation has restarted?!
2020-06-27 22:11:56 siina That's what I was thinking too, lukee
2020-06-27 22:12:02 lukee ha ha
2020-06-27 22:12:25 companion_cube ahah interesting
2020-06-27 22:12:37 makeworld Haha
2020-06-27 22:12:41 makeworld Full circle
2020-06-27 22:12:53 makeworld It's complete, no one say anything else
2020-06-27 22:13:05 lukee agreed
2020-06-27 22:13:06 companion_cube ∞
2020-06-27 22:14:44 lukee on that note, folks I think I shall leave you all to ponder the infinite. Its late here and I should retire!
2020-06-27 22:15:19 companion_cube is anyone here on mastodon?
2020-06-27 22:15:34 siina I am on fediverse, but not mastodon. :)
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2020-06-27 22:15:43 companion_cube it's compatible, isn't it?
2020-06-27 22:15:52 yeti passively only...
2020-06-27 22:16:03 siina fediverse is the entire ecosystem, companion_cube :3
2020-06-27 22:16:49 companion_cube right, right
2020-06-27 22:16:57 siina doas emerge --depclean
2020-06-27 22:17:01 siina herpderp wrong thing
2020-06-27 22:17:06 companion_cube am I supposed to say "someone on activity pub here?"
2020-06-27 22:17:25 siina You can just say fedi or fediverse or wahtever. I think that's how most people I now do it.
2020-06-27 22:17:53 siina But anyway: yes, I am and I think a few others are on there. :)
2020-06-27 22:18:16 makeworld Apparently Gemini is getting some attention on fedi
2020-06-27 22:18:26 siina Yeah, it's pretty popular around there.
2020-06-27 22:18:34 companion_cube so how do I find y'all on fedi? :p
2020-06-27 22:18:50 yeti ok... no longer tooting... account deleted
2020-06-27 22:19:19 yeti was idling long enough
2020-06-27 22:21:25 siina tastytea: the gentoo ebuild of kristall seems to be missing `dev-qt/qtsvg` as a dependency. I had to add it in order for it to build without fail.
2020-06-27 22:24:23 kensanata has quit (The TLS connection was non-properly terminated.)
2020-06-27 22:32:32 tastytea siina: Thanks! Fixed it; it will be available in a few hours or days.
2020-06-27 22:32:40 siina Thanks a bunch!
2020-06-27 22:56:50 @tomasino Moo
2020-06-27 22:56:54 siina ooM
2020-06-27 22:56:59 siina Henlo friend.
2020-06-27 22:57:34 @tomasino I'm tomasino@tilde.zone companion_cube
2020-06-27 22:57:51 siina Oh right -- I'm siina@cute.science companion_cube
2020-06-27 22:58:25 companion_cube followed both of y'all!
2020-06-27 22:58:55 @tomasino And my new peertube is tomasino@peertube.dk , but my main channel is explorations@peertube.dk
2020-06-27 22:59:04 siina ooh.
2020-06-27 23:00:09 @tomasino I haven't decided if I'm going to put my Iceland vids up on the same channel or break it up
2020-06-27 23:05:40 @ben tomasino: might be nice to have the original publish date in the video description
2020-06-27 23:06:01 @tomasino Hmm, good call
2020-06-27 23:36:00 companion_cube siina: using rofi? nice. I use rofi-emoji a lot 😜
2020-06-27 23:37:02 siina It is next on my list to make an ebuild for :)
2020-06-27 23:37:21 companion_cube ah, a gentoo aficionado, I see. Good luck to you!
2020-06-27 23:40:18 siina Thanks. :^)
2020-06-27 23:49:34 makeworld tomasino: Got a peertube instance recommendation for non-scandinavians?
2020-06-27 23:49:43 makeworld I was all excited about that one until I saw that lol
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2020-06-27 23:55:11 companion_cube ok, rofi-calc is cool indeed
2020-06-27 23:55:26 siina Yeah
2020-06-27 23:55:47 companion_cube I'm binding it to meta+c
2020-06-27 23:55:50 siina I do a lot of unit conversion in my day and hitting meta+c and then typing what I need is so much faster than anything else
2020-06-27 23:56:03 companion_cube 😂
2020-06-27 23:56:08 companion_cube same binding heh
2020-06-27 23:56:15 siina It's a logical binding
2020-06-27 23:56:23 siina meta+r for drun
2020-06-27 23:56:52 siina rather, for `drun,ssh`
2020-06-27 23:57:15 @tomasino makeworld: there's an instance finder tool that i used
2020-06-27 23:57:33 @tomasino https://joinpeertube.org/instances
2020-06-27 23:57:38 companion_cube the window binding is cool, too, to select a window
2020-06-27 23:57:44 makeworld Thanks
2020-06-27 23:57:45 @tomasino "filter according to your preferences"
2020-06-27 23:57:49 @tomasino i did that and it pointed me at this guy
2020-06-27 23:58:00 makeworld It's just hard to know if they will be reliable I guess
2020-06-27 23:58:06 makeworld I used to be on one, but it's gone now
2020-06-27 23:58:39 makeworld And before it went away, they made all videos manually reviewed for upload, which caught be surprise when I wanted to upload one time
2020-06-27 23:59:14 @tomasino yeah, it's a bit hit or miss
2020-06-27 23:59:18 @tomasino i like going with established ones
2020-06-28 00:00:00 makeworld Which is hard to tell from that instance picker
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2020-06-28 00:10:00 makeworld tiwesdaeg: md2gemini v1.5.1 released, which supports hard line breaks like you were using. Thanks again for catching this!
2020-06-28 00:15:08 makeworld I tested it on ttm.sh/Qlq.md and it works fine
2020-06-28 00:16:20 makeworld Hmmm it seems ttm.sh returns an error if you don't have https
2020-06-28 00:16:21 makeworld https://ttm.sh/QLq.md
2020-06-28 00:34:21 ~tiwesdaeg awesome, thanks makeworld!
2020-06-28 00:35:14 makeworld You're welcome, felt productive
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2020-06-28 11:08:25 @xq hey
2020-06-28 11:34:31 kensanata has quit (Ping timeout: 120 seconds)
2020-06-28 11:34:33 @julienxx Hi!
2020-06-28 11:36:33 @xq hey julienxx
2020-06-28 11:43:45 @julienxx I’m creating a new mastodon instance around Plan 9, a nice Sunday activity
2020-06-28 11:46:09 @xq hehe
2020-06-28 11:46:24 @xq would you be willing to give me a plan 9 walkthrough some day?
2020-06-28 11:46:39 @xq i've read a lot of docs, but it's still kinda hard to get started with Plan9 anyways
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2020-06-28 12:19:38 @julienxx Sure thing! It’s kinda hard to begin with and that’s why I’m making this 9til.de project so that people can have fun with it and share their findings
2020-06-28 12:24:07 @xq nice :)
2020-06-28 12:24:14 @xq also, awesome domain play!
2020-06-28 12:52:39 dkibi plan9 was the other thing I looked at in high school and never got into it ^^ I even bought a three button mous
2020-06-28 12:52:42 dkibi e
2020-06-28 12:53:06 dkibi and nowdays the meming of the 9front people confuses me
2020-06-28 13:04:35 @xq tiwesdaeg: i got the icon repro!
2020-06-28 13:04:39 @xq \o/
2020-06-28 13:07:40 ~tiwesdaeg wooo!
2020-06-28 13:08:16 @xq aaand it's gone
2020-06-28 13:08:20 @xq it's related to the theme setup
2020-06-28 13:08:33 @xq you just don't get *any* icon theme loaded
2020-06-28 13:08:41 ⚡ tiwesdaeg smacks icons around
2020-06-28 13:09:13 @xq also, i'm migrating the configuration to another folder
2020-06-28 13:09:21 @xq some things will change on-disk for better handling
2020-06-28 13:09:43 @xq e.g. document style templates/presets will be their own files
2020-06-28 13:10:45 @xq and you can now cancel modifications in the identity manage r:)
2020-06-28 13:47:32 ~tiwesdaeg will it do my homework for me?
2020-06-28 13:47:40 @xq sadly, not
2020-06-28 13:48:31 @xq this commit will be huge
2020-06-28 13:48:36 @xq and i hope i don't break enything
2020-06-28 13:48:37 @xq *anything
2020-06-28 13:49:48 ~tiwesdaeg also, markdown rendering in dark and light themes looks great now
2020-06-28 13:50:22 @xq \o/
2020-06-28 13:50:28 @xq not perfect yet
2020-06-28 13:50:34 @xq but the theming now works
2020-06-28 13:50:38 ~tiwesdaeg the text is readable!
2020-06-28 13:50:41 @xq :D
2020-06-28 16:00:15 makeworld Can y'all help me with something that's bugging me?
2020-06-28 16:00:17 makeworld https://github.com/makeworld-the-better-one/gemget/releases
2020-06-28 16:00:35 makeworld v1.2.1 has 43 assets, and v1.2.0 has 44
2020-06-28 16:00:43 makeworld And for the life of me I can't see the difference
2020-06-28 16:33:30 makeworld Ok, got it now
2020-06-28 16:36:46 makeworld It'd be cool to make a Gemini mapper
2020-06-28 16:37:07 makeworld Like it crawls gemini like GUS, but at the end creates a giant graph, with GraphViz or something
2020-06-28 16:37:23 makeworld So we can actually visualize the connections
2020-06-28 16:37:35 makeworld The Web is wayy to big for that, but it could work for Gemini
2020-06-28 16:38:29 makeworld I'd also like to make a script that saves the GUS stats every day and graphs them
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2020-06-28 16:48:27 inex makeworld: gemget-dragonfly-amd64
2020-06-28 16:49:10 makeworld Thanks, yeah I realized that a bit after
2020-06-28 16:49:16 makeworld I kept skipping over it
2020-06-28 17:10:42 @xq <makeworld> Like it crawls gemini like GUS, but at the end creates a giant graph, with GraphViz or something
2020-06-28 17:10:48 @xq i wanted to do something like that as well
2020-06-28 17:10:53 @xq gemini network visualization
2020-06-28 17:12:52 makeworld Yeah, it would be very cool
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2020-06-28 17:29:04 kensanata I wonder how that scales...
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2020-06-28 17:29:51 kensanata I always found that GraphViz and other such methods fail as soon as you have more than a few dozen pages. Let alone thousands.
2020-06-28 17:30:16 kensanata On a different note, my wiki now allows file uploads of binary files as well...
2020-06-28 17:30:22 @xq i would create only a host-linking map
2020-06-28 17:30:27 @xq not a page-linking map
2020-06-28 17:30:37 kensanata Ah
2020-06-28 17:38:41 makeworld Yes, that's what I was thinking as well
2020-06-28 17:39:18 makeworld Potentially you could try and do a user linking map, where you detect /users/ URLs, but that would be just for extra stuff
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2020-06-28 17:56:46 xj9 julienxx: plan9 themed or using plan9 programs as infrastructure?
2020-06-28 17:57:08 xj9 are there any AP servers that run in plan9?
2020-06-28 17:58:24 xj9 i've been looking into using p9p fossil/venti for backups and object storage on social.sunshinegardens.org
2020-06-28 17:58:44 xj9 needs a bunch of fixes to work on alpine though, so it might be a while lol
2020-06-28 18:49:16 @julienxx xj9: plan9 themed, I don’t think there is a way to host activity pub stuff without JS
2020-06-28 18:49:25 @julienxx Maybe Honk could work
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2020-06-28 18:52:24 lukee evening all!
2020-06-28 18:53:18 lukee I like the idea of a graph of the gemini hypertext-in-the-large.
2020-06-28 18:54:03 lukee It wouldnt have to be visualised to be useful. I agree visualisation might be difficiult especially as it scales, but there are things that can be done, like collapsing many sub nodes into a domain node
2020-06-28 18:54:50 lukee Also it could also be used as an architecture to capture comments and responses. You would be able to have a link on a page which queried the graph to discover who has linked to the current page.
2020-06-28 18:55:22 lukee At the moment the commenting and responding infrastructure in gemini is a bit... limited
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2020-06-28 20:29:42 makeworld lukee: I've talked about something like that before on this chat
2020-06-28 20:29:53 makeworld It would crawl looking for posts that replied to other posts
2020-06-28 20:30:28 makeworld Hmm this could be useful as a service, where you enter your post URL and it would show all the places that linked to it
2020-06-28 20:34:26 lukee it would help with the ongoing conversation mentioned on the mailing list of "how do I know if someone replied to my post"
2020-06-28 20:34:54 lukee A sort of back-links service
2020-06-28 20:36:25 makeworld Yeah exactly
2020-06-28 20:36:36 makeworld I remember talking about this before, I even made a note of it
2020-06-28 20:36:51 makeworld I think tomasino suggested the name "uberthreadz"
2020-06-28 20:37:12 @tomasino Heehee, I did!
2020-06-28 20:39:34 makeworld In my notes I wrote that we started talking about it at 2020-06-02T21:47:00.736Z , if you have logs lukee
2020-06-28 20:39:50 @tomasino Tricky parsing stuff
2020-06-28 20:40:31 @tomasino You might check if a backlink has a high ratio of link lines to non link lines to cut out listing pages
2020-06-28 20:41:03 makeworld Yeah that's what I remember, that it got complicated fast
2020-06-28 20:41:22 makeworld But I think the complications mainly stemmed from trying to decide if something actually was a response or not
2020-06-28 20:41:31 makeworld Versus just a regular link
2020-06-28 20:41:35 @tomasino Right
2020-06-28 20:41:46 makeworld But if someone's making a crawler that maps everything, it's not such a big deal
2020-06-28 20:41:57 makeworld You can just ask for all pages that link to mine, and filter them out yourself
2020-06-28 20:42:09 makeworld Hmm....
2020-06-28 20:42:18 @tomasino If I link to your post from capcom, your back link thing gets messy
2020-06-28 20:42:39 @tomasino Unless you can invalidate nodes like that
2020-06-28 20:42:41 lukee makeworld: I dont have all the IRC logs - is there a way to get them?
2020-06-28 20:42:43 makeworld Yeah, but if you're just asking for all the links, you can just filter past it
2020-06-28 20:43:11 makeworld Like it doesn't work well as a notification system, but it could work if I just want to see if other people have linked to it
2020-06-28 20:43:28 @tomasino If it's a single step thing sure
2020-06-28 20:43:36 makeworld lukee: I can send you them, and I think tomasino keeps them too?
2020-06-28 20:43:37 @tomasino I thought you were creating a thread
2020-06-28 20:43:48 makeworld Yeah, I guess these are different things
2020-06-28 20:44:08 makeworld I was starting to picture a tool where you just enter a URL as input and it lists all the pages that link to it
2020-06-28 20:44:11 @tomasino A simple back link detection could be a function of gus
2020-06-28 20:44:22 makeworld But "uberthreadz" was more advanced, I remember now
2020-06-28 20:44:35 makeworld It would create a page of threaded responses and stuff
2020-06-28 20:44:37 makeworld Yeesh
2020-06-28 20:44:43 @tomasino Exactly
2020-06-28 20:44:56 @tomasino Which would be awesome and super difficult
2020-06-28 20:45:15 makeworld The perfect job for ~someone else~
2020-06-28 20:45:21 lukee Does the UI have to be too complex?
2020-06-28 20:45:47 makeworld What do you mean?
2020-06-28 20:46:00 lukee Just pass a query of the URI to the backlinks server and you get a list of pages that point to it?
2020-06-28 20:46:07 lukee am I missing something here?
2020-06-28 20:46:17 makeworld That's the simple version
2020-06-28 20:46:31 lukee maybe it is enough to be useful
2020-06-28 20:46:34 makeworld The version tomasino and I talked about before was more featureful
2020-06-28 20:46:36 makeworld Yes definitely
2020-06-28 20:46:45 makeworld GUS should add that as a feature
2020-06-28 20:46:50 lukee There could be other front ends to that that had filters etc
2020-06-28 20:47:11 lukee after all GMI output is easy to parse and filter
2020-06-28 20:47:19 makeworld The more complicated version would try to look at all the links and determine what is a response and what is not, and the order and threading of the responses
2020-06-28 20:47:24 @tomasino A reverse crawl, identifying links that are part of a conversation thread vs general linking and reconstruct it all into a single document
2020-06-28 20:47:39 makeworld Yeah
2020-06-28 20:47:40 lukee that is asking a lot, but interesting
2020-06-28 20:47:55 makeworld But I'd really like to see the simple version first yeah
2020-06-28 20:48:02 @tomasino Indeed
2020-06-28 20:48:11 makeworld Should I email natpen maybe?
2020-06-28 20:48:21 makeworld Ask if she can add it?
2020-06-28 20:49:52 @tomasino it's probably already a feature
2020-06-28 20:50:05 @tomasino nat's got everything in there
2020-06-28 20:50:07 lukee It would be cool if it could emit XML/JSON/RDF then we can build other UIs on top of it
2020-06-28 20:50:29 makeworld Haha tomasino
2020-06-28 20:50:39 makeworld There is a lot, but I don't see it there
2020-06-28 20:50:58 makeworld So I think I might email, unless I actually am missing it
2020-06-28 20:52:19 lukee makeworld: is there a way to put all the IRC logs into Gemini, not just the last N entries?
2020-06-28 20:52:56 lukee or maybe it is frowned on if people prefer IRC to be ephemeral?
2020-06-28 20:53:13 @tomasino certainly possible
2020-06-28 20:53:29 @tomasino we talked at one point about auto-splicing up the logs with logrotate and dumping it into a folder somewhere in gemspace
2020-06-28 20:53:34 makeworld Yep I can definitely do that
2020-06-28 20:53:46 makeworld I could just serve the entire file that I have
2020-06-28 20:54:11 lukee would be nice, if not too much hassle - it seems there is a lot of useful chat goes on here...
2020-06-28 20:54:55 lukee yeah why not (or weekly/monthly rotated might be enough if it is too big to be comfortable)
2020-06-28 20:55:12 @ben if everyone's comfortable with public logging
2020-06-28 20:55:14 @ben then go ahead
2020-06-28 20:55:23 @ben please note in the topic if there are public logs
2020-06-28 20:55:49 ℹ tomasino has changed topic for #gemini from "💎 Gemini (protocol) enthusiasts - gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | https://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | gopher://gemini.circumlunar.space/" to "💎 Gemini (protocol) enthusiasts - gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | https://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | gopher://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | publically logged in gemspace"
2020-06-28 20:56:13 makeworld Alright, my log file starts from 2020-05-03
2020-06-28 20:56:29 makeworld I could try and stitch the log file I downloaded from tomasino in, but idk if there's a point
2020-06-28 20:56:41 @tomasino more history
2020-06-28 20:56:43 @tomasino :)
2020-06-28 20:56:53 @tomasino but you're not using weechat, right?
2020-06-28 20:57:10 makeworld No I'm not, so it would look different
2020-06-28 20:57:31 @ben i have logs starting 2019-09-05
2020-06-28 20:57:42 @tomasino oh, hey, tomasino.org is on gemini now
2020-06-28 20:57:46 @tomasino i could link my log there
2020-06-28 20:57:48 @tomasino one sec
2020-06-28 20:57:58 @tomasino oh, wait...
2020-06-28 20:57:58 @tomasino no
2020-06-28 20:58:04 @tomasino tomasino.org is using that ncat thing
2020-06-28 20:58:08 @tomasino nevermind
2020-06-28 20:58:21 @tomasino i don't run any gemini servers for real-real on this vps
2020-06-28 20:59:03 @tomasino mine starts 2019-09-01, ben. So you're pretty close
2020-06-28 20:59:07 @ben mm
2020-06-28 20:59:09 @ben nice
2020-06-28 20:59:16 makeworld You should put your logs up too tomasino
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2020-06-28 21:00:00 @tomasino anyone have a quick one-liner to generate a key/cert pair with a domain I provide?
2020-06-28 21:00:09 @tomasino i'll do a ncat solution on gopher.black
2020-06-28 21:00:15 @ben certbot certonly -d domain.tld
2020-06-28 21:00:18 @ben lol
2020-06-28 21:00:30 @tomasino but that expires, doesn't it?
2020-06-28 21:00:35 @ben ya 90 days
2020-06-28 21:00:50 @tomasino oh, i'd have to deal with SNI anyway
2020-06-28 21:00:58 @ben mhm
2020-06-28 21:00:59 @tomasino tomasino.org has 1965 covered right now
2020-06-28 21:01:15 makeworld Okay my full logs are up at gemini://makeworld.gq/irc/log.txt
2020-06-28 21:01:26 makeworld I'll have a proper home page for them at /irc/
2020-06-28 21:01:36 @tomasino i could make a cron ssh a daily snapshot of the logs to ~black
2020-06-28 21:01:39 @tomasino that'd be easiest
2020-06-28 21:01:58 @tomasino uno-momento
2020-06-28 21:02:25 lukee cool! thanks
2020-06-28 21:04:17 companion_cube that's a big file
2020-06-28 21:04:19 ⚡ lukee peruses the history before joining the channel...
2020-06-28 21:05:27 makeworld My log file is actually only 1.9M
2020-06-28 21:05:40 makeworld But my upload speeds are pretty slow
2020-06-28 21:05:48 @tomasino gemini://tilde.black:1965/users/fox/irc/log.txt
2020-06-28 21:05:56 makeworld Also maybe Amfora is slow for long files?? I haven't benched it really
2020-06-28 21:05:59 makeworld Oh nice thanks!
2020-06-28 21:06:12 makeworld I'll link to there on makeworld.gq/irc/
2020-06-28 21:06:41 makeworld How big is it?
2020-06-28 21:09:54 @tomasino 1.8M
2020-06-28 21:10:16 makeworld Hmm, wonder why mine is bigger
2020-06-28 21:10:26 lukee tilde.black is faster to load
2020-06-28 21:10:48 @tomasino it should back up nightly at 0000 UC
2020-06-28 21:10:49 @tomasino UTC*
2020-06-28 21:13:00 @tomasino that was easy
2020-06-28 21:15:10 ~tiwesdaeg new entry to the Quinaria Discordia is up
2020-06-28 21:16:47 makeworld Nice
2020-06-28 21:23:42 makeworld Was this the one that I helped with?
2020-06-28 21:31:36 makeworld That long log entry exposed a perf issue in Amfora, thanks I guess lol
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2020-06-28 22:09:56 @xq tiwesdaeg: i've change some things in Kristall regarding the icon stuff. can you check out if the problem still exists?
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2020-06-28 22:26:22 peterbb Hey, do I have a really strange bug in my client, or did multiple servers switch from text/gemini to gemini/text. Am I going crazy?
2020-06-28 22:29:41 peterbb haha, I know what's wrong. xD my fault.
2020-06-28 22:30:09 peterbb I mocked my ssl-transfer function to test out some stuff yesterday :p
2020-06-28 22:30:34 @xq :D
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2020-06-29 00:56:24 makeworld I'm thinking about allowing the caching of URLs with query strings in Amfora
2020-06-29 00:56:37 makeworld Cause right now that can't happen, it always re-requests if there's a query string
2020-06-29 00:56:54 makeworld Anyone have any thoughts on that?
2020-06-29 00:57:12 makeworld I'm not sure how many CGI applications use query strings and change a lot
2020-06-29 00:57:43 makeworld But the lack of caching is notable for something like GUS, where's there's always a query string pretty much, and you're often clicking something, and then going back
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2020-06-29 02:19:24 ~tiwesdaeg xq: just did a clean and pull and still not working
2020-06-29 02:19:54 ~tiwesdaeg so, when I first open kristall, the navigation buttons are rectangles with words in them
2020-06-29 02:20:14 ~tiwesdaeg Back Forward and Reload
2020-06-29 02:20:26 ~tiwesdaeg if I open a new tab, they become empty squares
2020-06-29 02:20:40 ~tiwesdaeg as I showed you in the screenshots
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2020-06-29 03:45:27 epoch_ I got a hilit in this channel but my backlog doesn't go that far back
2020-06-29 04:40:21 login epoch_: "<xq> epoch derailed me with a hackvr"
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2020-06-29 08:05:48 @xq hey
2020-06-29 08:05:56 @xq ah dang, tiwesdaeg isn't here atm
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2020-06-29 08:15:01 ℹ Mode #gemini [+qo tiwesdaeg tiwesdaeg] by ChanServ
2020-06-29 08:55:17 @julienxx hello
2020-06-29 08:55:41 @xq hey julienx, tiwesdaeg, kensanata
2020-06-29 08:56:05 @xq tiwesdaeg: thanks for the report! very weird behaviour on your site
2020-06-29 08:56:14 @xq what DM are you using? XFCE/Manjaro?
2020-06-29 10:02:07 kensanata Yo!
2020-06-29 10:06:27 kensanata Wondering what to suggest to people when they ask me for a Gemini client recommendation. These days I say Elpher or AV-98 because the others require people to compile stuff themselves. Are there clients with binary distributions? gemini://alexschroeder.ch:1968/page/Gemini
2020-06-29 10:08:31 thombles has quit (Ping timeout: 120 seconds)
2020-06-29 10:18:40 @julienxx bombadillo has binaries https://bombadillo.colorfield.space/releases/
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2020-06-29 10:33:42 kensanata julienxx: Thanks, added that!
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2020-06-29 11:01:26 @tomasino goob morgnuns
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2020-06-29 11:13:33 kensanata gođan daín or however one writes this in Icelandic I guess?
2020-06-29 11:24:24 @tomasino close!
2020-06-29 11:24:30 @tomasino goðan daginn
2020-06-29 11:24:43 @tomasino g's get pronounced weird between certain vowels
2020-06-29 11:28:24 kensanata It's been a while since I've last been to Iceland, sadly.
2020-06-29 11:28:32 kensanata And I didn't even eat the rotten shark.
2020-06-29 11:29:35 @tomasino aww, does it even count as a visit then?
2020-06-29 11:29:36 @tomasino :D
2020-06-29 11:29:57 @tomasino you got a shout out on last night's tilde trivia show, btw
2020-06-29 11:30:08 @tomasino "wiki" was one of the answers
2020-06-29 11:30:20 kensanata Haha! Way to go!
2020-06-29 11:32:56 @tomasino :D
2020-06-29 11:33:06 @tomasino also Titan got a shout out
2020-06-29 11:33:19 @tomasino the saturn V rocket was an answer as well
2020-06-29 11:35:04 kensanata Now I just need more clients implementing it!
2020-06-29 11:42:04 @xq kensanata: can you link me a spec? :D
2020-06-29 11:43:34 kensanata xq: What I currently have is https://communitywiki.org/wiki/Titan or gemini://communitywiki.org:1966/Titan but I'd be happy to improve it.
2020-06-29 11:45:10 kensanata xq: The following also works for text uploads: https://alexschroeder.ch/cgit/gemini-titan/tree/gemini.sh?h=main#n50
2020-06-29 11:54:10 kensanata Do people want RSS or Atom these days? I like RSS myself because in the end half of Atom never got used.
2020-06-29 11:59:55 @xq probably Atom
2020-06-29 12:00:33 jan6 both? both is good!
2020-06-29 12:00:33 jan6 ;P
2020-06-29 12:01:29 jan6 huh
2020-06-29 12:01:50 jan6 I've not been up to date with stuff here, but a separate protocol for writing seems great
2020-06-29 12:02:01 kensanata Yay!
2020-06-29 12:02:30 jan6 seems simple too
2020-06-29 12:02:33 jan6 great!
2020-06-29 12:02:37 kensanata ✨🚀🚀✨ TITAN!! 🌃✨🚀🚀 ✨
2020-06-29 12:02:42 @tomasino pew pew!
2020-06-29 12:02:48 jan6 mew mew
2020-06-29 12:03:17 kensanata Gah, guess I have to write the Atom output as well, then.
2020-06-29 12:03:52 jan6 you don't HATE to ;P
2020-06-29 12:03:54 jan6 *HAVE
2020-06-29 12:04:27 @xq kensanata: why do you include the file size in the headers?
2020-06-29 12:05:58 kensanata xq: My impression from earlier work was that if you don't do it, binary uploads won't work since you can't wait for a special byte, so you can't tell slow connections appart from short files?
2020-06-29 12:06:43 kensanata jan6: My kind of Freudian slip!
2020-06-29 12:06:49 jan6 use a checksum? ;P
2020-06-29 12:07:21 kensanata I'm not checking whether I got the right file, I need to know when to stop reading the socket...
2020-06-29 12:07:33 @xq does the server respond anything for a titan request?
2020-06-29 12:08:04 kensanata xq: Yeah, my implementation responds with a dozen varieties of 59 and 30 in the case of a success.
2020-06-29 12:08:23 kensanata The 30 then redirects back to the gemini URL so that people can verifiy that it worked.
2020-06-29 12:08:23 @xq ah!
2020-06-29 12:08:31 @xq okay, yeah
2020-06-29 12:08:36 @xq then it's necessary to send the file size
2020-06-29 12:08:40 kensanata I guess you could also have a nice 20 "Upload accepted" page?
2020-06-29 12:09:07 kensanata xq: Oh, that explains it to you? Can you explain it back to me, because I don't actually understand...
2020-06-29 12:09:23 kensanata Ah, the client can't simply close the connection?
2020-06-29 12:20:38 kensanata I have a related question, actually: in one of my unit tests I use a super short 18 line client written in Perl. It does Gemini and Titan requests, but if the server responds with an error, I can't seem to *read* that error. So instead of getting "59 MIME type not supported" or whatever, I'm simply getting an undefined response.
2020-06-29 12:22:16 kensanata I keep thinking that's because I should be reading the server response instead of sending the payload, but if the server intends to accept the payload, it doesn't reply anything, so there's nothing to read. Is this because the protocol is not well-designed, or is this because my super-short client needs to be fixed, and if so, how?
2020-06-29 12:22:29 kensanata All I can offer right now is some Perl code... https://alexschroeder.ch/cgit/gemini-wiki/tree/t/gemini-wiki.t#n98
2020-06-29 12:22:32 kensanata Sorry! :D
2020-06-29 12:23:59 kensanata The problem is the test at line 159 which I had to comment: https://alexschroeder.ch/cgit/gemini-wiki/tree/t/gemini-wiki.t#n159
2020-06-29 12:24:18 kensanata Anyway, if any of you have some socket programming insight, I'd be happy to hear it.
2020-06-29 12:27:53 @xq sounds like your client should be fixed
2020-06-29 12:27:59 @xq i can take a look later
2020-06-29 12:28:04 @xq right now, work is priority :D
2020-06-29 12:36:04 kensanata Sure!
2020-06-29 12:36:15 kensanata My summer break started today, so I have more time...
2020-06-29 12:39:25 @xq haha neat
2020-06-29 12:39:47 @xq where are you from? from our domain name i guess switzerland?
2020-06-29 12:46:07 kensanata I live in Switzerland, yes
2020-06-29 12:47:01 ~tiwesdaeg xq: yeah, the xfce version of manjaro
2020-06-29 12:47:21 ~tiwesdaeg let me see if it's occurring on this computer as well
2020-06-29 12:51:45 ~tiwesdaeg nope
2020-06-29 12:52:16 ~tiwesdaeg xfce on freebsd is working fine
2020-06-29 12:54:34 @xq i check out a blank manjaro
2020-06-29 12:54:53 natpen has quit (Ping timeout: 120 seconds)
2020-06-29 12:55:28 ~tiwesdaeg xq: let me install a different wm and boot in to that to see if it's still an issue
2020-06-29 12:55:38 ~tiwesdaeg I can do it when I get home from work today
2020-06-29 12:55:47 @xq :D
2020-06-29 12:56:35 ~tiwesdaeg I'll just do i3 to replicate your environment more
2020-06-29 12:56:57 ~tiwesdaeg are you using startx or a display manager?
2020-06-29 12:57:19 @xq startx
2020-06-29 12:57:57 ~tiwesdaeg I think manjaro is using lightdm for xfce
2020-06-29 12:58:19 ~tiwesdaeg I'll just kill it and setup a .xinitrc
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2020-06-29 13:00:59 @xq hey natpen
2020-06-29 13:02:28 kensanata Does anybody know why I'm getting this validation error? https://validator.w3.org/feed/check.cgi?url=https%3A%2F%2Falexschroeder.ch%3A1968%2Fdo%2Frss#l64
2020-06-29 13:03:25 kensanata Finishing that RSS feed did take longer than expected. Damn HTML quoting.
2020-06-29 13:03:32 kensanata XML quoting.
2020-06-29 13:06:25 @xq kensanata: it sounds like you're using a undefined tag there?
2020-06-29 13:08:16 kensanata description seems to be the right tag to me, and I use it in the previous item as well, line 57 for example.
2020-06-29 13:08:23 @xq weird
2020-06-29 13:09:32 kensanata It's like the parser sees some other fragment on that line and believes there should be a tag.
2020-06-29 13:10:26 kensanata On to RFC 4287... Atom Syndication!
2020-06-29 13:30:56 @xq tiwesdaeg: okay, got the repro
2020-06-29 13:31:27 @xq changing the theme to dark mode, then opening a new tab solved it
2020-06-29 13:31:28 @xq wtf
2020-06-29 13:35:36 @tomasino Atom addiction
2020-06-29 13:35:54 @xq i want to do atom at some point as well
2020-06-29 13:36:04 @xq i just spend my whole time on either games or Kristall atm :D
2020-06-29 13:58:06 kensanata Hah
2020-06-29 13:58:25 kensanata Well, Atom seems to validate without that weird comment I get when trying to validate RSS so... I dunno?
2020-06-29 13:59:58 @tomasino weird comment?
2020-06-29 14:00:19 @tomasino oh, missing cdata block on the description, perhaps in RSS
2020-06-29 14:00:50 kensanata tomasino: But I don't need CDATA if I'm HTML quoting, no?
2020-06-29 14:01:11 @xq tiwesdaeg: btw, starting to write a CI docker file atm :)
2020-06-29 14:01:14 kensanata Like, < > & – but perhaps you're right and I forgot something...
2020-06-29 14:01:16 @tomasino depends on if you're escaping it all properly
2020-06-29 14:01:20 @tomasino might be just the quotes
2020-06-29 14:01:21 kensanata Yeah!
2020-06-29 14:01:30 @tomasino i just cdata everything for cosmic
2020-06-29 14:01:31 @tomasino it's easier
2020-06-29 14:01:33 kensanata Heh.
2020-06-29 14:01:40 @tomasino cosmic.voyage/rss.xml
2020-06-29 14:01:55 ~tiwesdaeg docker and I don't get along
2020-06-29 14:01:56 @tomasino i think i do, anyway
2020-06-29 14:02:27 kensanata tomasino: do you make sure the quoted text doesn't contain ]]> ?
2020-06-29 14:02:44 ~tiwesdaeg xq: you got the test manajaro vm running?
2020-06-29 14:02:56 @xq it's already down again! :D
2020-06-29 14:03:03 @xq and yes, i can repro your problems there
2020-06-29 14:03:07 @xq so fails on a blank manjaro
2020-06-29 14:03:10 @xq very weird
2020-06-29 14:03:23 ~tiwesdaeg speaking of quoted text, makeworld I found another issue with md2gemini
2020-06-29 14:08:57 wgreenhouse what's the process for getting picked up by CAPCOM? is it just have an atom feed?
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2020-06-29 14:16:51 ~tiwesdaeg wgreenhouse: email the feed link to solderpunk
2020-06-29 14:17:28 wgreenhouse tiwesdaeg: thanks :)
2020-06-29 14:27:28 kensanata What's the word on the street regarding escape sequences to add colours to the output? Always a good idea? Never a good idea?
2020-06-29 14:27:56 kensanata I know that Elpher can handle them, eventhough it doesn't use a terminal, but what about other non-terminal clients?
2020-06-29 14:31:10 @julienxx I do handle them in Castor, not the best idea for a graphical client but it’s fun!
2020-06-29 14:31:21 @xq Kristall will probably allow to handle them, but it's optional
2020-06-29 14:34:33 everbern has quit (Client exited)
2020-06-29 14:37:16 kensanata Cool!
2020-06-29 14:37:40 kensanata I'll try and keep it simple: just those standard eight colours or something like it
2020-06-29 14:41:04 makeworld Yeah, I only have one colour on my homepage
2020-06-29 14:41:13 makeworld tiwesdaeg: What's the bug?
2020-06-29 14:42:28 ~tiwesdaeg When using > for quotes in markdown, I'm getting a weird output
2020-06-29 14:42:50 makeworld Ah
2020-06-29 14:42:57 makeworld Is the line underneath not being quoted?
2020-06-29 14:43:11 makeworld https://github.com/makeworld-the-better-one/md2gemini/issues/14
2020-06-29 14:43:37 ~tiwesdaeg I'm getting added ``` in it
2020-06-29 14:43:42 makeworld Hmm
2020-06-29 14:44:00 makeworld Can you provide an example md file again?
2020-06-29 14:44:18 ~tiwesdaeg Sure, give me a minute
2020-06-29 14:44:57 jan6 tiwesdaeg: @lightdm, did you know you can just simply add your own profiles to the display managers, just by editing /usr/share/xsessions/*.desktop files ;P
2020-06-29 14:45:44 @xq makeworld: gemini://random-projects.net/torture/0002.md
2020-06-29 14:45:50 @xq if you ant any markdown file :D
2020-06-29 14:47:04 makeworld That file doesn't have any quotes though?
2020-06-29 14:48:24 makeworld The processing for that file looks decent tiwesdaeg
2020-06-29 14:48:36 makeworld Oh whoops it was xq who sent that
2020-06-29 14:48:40 makeworld My bad
2020-06-29 14:50:40 @xq sorry if i just responded pretty brainfarty
2020-06-29 14:50:50 @xq but if there are problems, i'd like to incorporate them into this file :D
2020-06-29 14:50:58 makeworld Haha no it's all good, I just got to read people's usernames
2020-06-29 14:51:44 ~tiwesdaeg makeworld: I was changing things up
2020-06-29 14:51:57 makeworld All good :)
2020-06-29 14:52:02 makeworld Lol
2020-06-29 14:52:24 ~tiwesdaeg still working on setting up a base markdown file to render to html and gmi and was having issues with ``` and python markdown tools
2020-06-29 14:52:45 makeworld Anyway I actually have to go soon, so just send the file when you can and I'll get to it soon
2020-06-29 14:55:05 makeworld Thanks for reporting these issues though
2020-06-29 14:57:32 @julienxx tomasino: did you have to re-follow everyone after your instance migration? It started importing my followers but not the people I follow, maybe I just need to wait.
2020-06-29 14:58:02 @tomasino um, i.... don't know! i also exported and imported all my lists
2020-06-29 14:58:08 @tomasino so maybe it only migrates your followers
2020-06-29 14:59:01 @julienxx ok thanks, I have the export too in case it fails :)
2020-06-29 14:59:12 companion_cube morning there
2020-06-29 14:59:14 @julienxx too bad toots can't be moved
2020-06-29 14:59:22 companion_cube anyone here into Forth? given the taste for minimalism…
2020-06-29 14:59:24 @julienxx hi companion_cube
2020-06-29 15:00:36 @julienxx I read Thinking Forth but never really did stuff with it
2020-06-29 15:01:06 @xq 40 2 +
2020-06-29 15:01:13 @xq that's pretty much all i know of Forth :D
2020-06-29 15:01:18 @xq rpn + stack
2020-06-29 15:01:42 ~tiwesdaeg makeworld: https://ttm.sh/
2020-06-29 15:01:52 ~tiwesdaeg oops
2020-06-29 15:02:04 ~tiwesdaeg https://ttm.sh/Q5C.md
2020-06-29 15:02:09 ~tiwesdaeg might want the whole link
2020-06-29 15:02:56 kensanata Same here. Read a book or two.
2020-06-29 15:03:08 kensanata Installed Retro Forth on the phone and did nothing with it.
2020-06-29 15:04:08 companion_cube erf :)
2020-06-29 15:04:40 kensanata erf... because you're also just reading a book or two and doing nothing with it? :D
2020-06-29 15:04:41 @julienxx http://forthworks.com/atua a gopher server in Forth
2020-06-29 15:05:30 kensanata julienxx: wow!
2020-06-29 15:05:45 kensanata And it's by the Retro Forth guy!
2020-06-29 15:06:03 @julienxx It's by Charles Childers the guy who also makes the only iOS gopher client on the AppStore
2020-06-29 15:06:13 kensanata Right.
2020-06-29 15:06:46 kensanata I remember a discussion with him on Mastodon where he said he programmed by he open window, no matter what the temperature outside. Freezing cold!
2020-06-29 15:07:54 @julienxx to cool down his machine :D
2020-06-29 15:10:03 kensanata Maybe!
2020-06-29 15:10:03 @tomasino Good dude, Charles
2020-06-29 15:10:16 kensanata Did he recover from RSI?
2020-06-29 15:10:52 companion_cube kensanata: well I'm curious, is all
2020-06-29 15:11:12 companion_cube I kind of need a DSL for something else and am thinking of drawing inspiration from Forth since it's so simple to implement
2020-06-29 15:12:35 @xq companion_cube: what do you want to build?
2020-06-29 15:12:49 companion_cube I'm writing a small proof assistant :)
2020-06-29 15:13:05 companion_cube (the normal way is to use a ML language, they were designed for that, but I'm trying something else)
2020-06-29 15:14:25 @tomasino he's in progress last i heard, but still having issues
2020-06-29 15:16:31 kensanata Wow, this SGR answer is great, including a digression into the basic 11 colours (search for "interlude") https://stackoverflow.com/a/33206814
2020-06-29 15:16:51 kensanata "This may be why story Beowulf only contains the colours black, white, and red. It may also be why the Bible does not contain the colour blue. Homer's Odyssey contains black almost 200 times and white about 100 times. Red appears 15 times, while yellow and green appear only 10 times."
2020-06-29 15:18:49 @xq yeah, "blue" is kinda invisible to humans by nature until something 200-300 years ago
2020-06-29 15:19:03 @xq as it was not trivially possible to make blue color pigments
2020-06-29 15:30:51 @xq if i'm doing it right, Kristall will gain a CI-built AppImage today :)
2020-06-29 15:30:55 @xq linux deployment done easy
2020-06-29 15:38:48 kensanata I liked the idea in toki pona where blue and green get the same name
2020-06-29 15:39:02 @xq heh
2020-06-29 15:39:19 @xq interestingly, naming colors gives you the ability to distinguish them
2020-06-29 15:39:30 @xq otherwise your brain kinda maps them to the same token
2020-06-29 15:41:06 kensanata does a link now require a \r\n at the end or is a simple \n good enough these days?
2020-06-29 15:41:34 kensanata xq: It's an interesting question and hard to determine experimentally, I'd say.
2020-06-29 15:41:39 @julienxx \r\n is only for the meta part if I'm not mistaken
2020-06-29 15:42:30 kensanata Yep, that got fixed. Yay!
2020-06-29 15:43:04 @xq kensanata: afaik it's proven by example
2020-06-29 15:43:58 kensanata You ask people from remote tribes: "is this the same colour as this?"
2020-06-29 15:44:12 @xq https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue%E2%80%93green_distinction_in_language
2020-06-29 15:44:17 @xq yes, kinda :D
2020-06-29 15:45:25 @xq afaik in the Ilias water was described as "the color of wine" which isn't quite "blue" :D
2020-06-29 15:46:22 kensanata You get into issues of translation, though. If by "your brain kinda maps them to the same token" you mean words, then fine. But if you mean that people think two things are the same, I maintain that it's still hard. But I haven't read that Wikipedia page yet.
2020-06-29 15:47:02 @xq do you know "MaiLab"? (german youtube channel)
2020-06-29 15:47:07 @xq she has a quite nice explanatory video on this
2020-06-29 15:48:00 kensanata No, I don't do much YouTube...
2020-06-29 15:48:47 kensanata Many years ago I got a master in biology, though, with one of the focus topics being physiology of the senses (Sinnesphysiologie)...
2020-06-29 15:49:35 kensanata I skimmed the Wikipedia article and it seems to consist of a long list of languages and the words they use to describe colours.
2020-06-29 15:49:59 @xq yeah, i've noticed that too
2020-06-29 15:50:04 @xq but there's different studies linked
2020-06-29 15:50:43 kensanata I stopped by Portuguese and noticed that they talk about bright blue and dark blue, and I thought to myself: what it says here is that people use adjectives to further specify what kind of color they see and the important part is that they see a difference... so... ?
2020-06-29 15:50:58 dkibi xq: this is mostly unrelated to the converstation, but since I saw you do demo stuff: do you know a good introduction to color space foo (good: short, technical, complete)
2020-06-29 15:51:11 @xq phew
2020-06-29 15:52:17 @xq no, not directly
2020-06-29 15:52:29 @xq you may ask on ircnet/#revision
2020-06-29 15:55:14 dkibi oh thanks for the pointer. when I googled arround I found either long overview blog posts, or highly technical discussions. I would like something targeted at someone used to read technical documents, but who has no prior knowledge (graduate classes are often in this category)
2020-06-29 15:56:42 @xq https://www.iquilezles.org/www/index.htm maybe something can be found here
2020-06-29 15:56:47 @xq iqs articles are great
2020-06-29 15:57:18 dkibi ah yes of course ^^ I should have checked
2020-06-29 15:58:51 dkibi bevore covid I thought about going to revisision, I've never been to a demo party, I live not far away, and it would have been on my birthday weekend. but well
2020-06-29 15:59:21 @xq dang
2020-06-29 16:00:17 dkibi and I have couches in Saarbrücken I could crash on ^^
2020-06-29 16:00:44 @xq he
2020-06-29 16:00:49 @xq come next revision!
2020-06-29 16:01:13 @xq will be my first one too, but i usually visit some different parties across germany and outline in netherlands
2020-06-29 16:03:45 @xq i feel pranked
2020-06-29 16:03:56 @xq > Please run on a system with a glibc version no newer than what comes with the oldest
2020-06-29 16:04:00 @xq W T F
2020-06-29 16:04:39 @xq result: i cannot use linuxdeployqt to develop an appimage build process
2020-06-29 16:04:50 @xq because someone thinks it's a good idea to force me to use ubuntu xenial
2020-06-29 16:04:55 @xq where my app doesn't even build
2020-06-29 16:15:03 kensanata has quit (Ping timeout: 120 seconds)
2020-06-29 16:15:48 makeworld tiwesdaeg I'm afraid this is on you I think, according to the MD spec
2020-06-29 16:16:27 makeworld Starting a line with four spaces make it a code line, and that applies even in a quote
2020-06-29 16:16:57 @xq makeworld: yep, that is correct
2020-06-29 16:18:15 makeworld So it's trying to quote it, but also use gemini backticks
2020-06-29 16:18:24 ~tiwesdaeg that sucks :(
2020-06-29 16:18:24 makeworld So you end up with something invalid:
2020-06-29 16:18:27 makeworld > ```
2020-06-29 16:18:30 makeworld Yeah sorry
2020-06-29 16:18:35 ~tiwesdaeg thanks, though
2020-06-29 16:19:04 ~tiwesdaeg even if that line is a quote?
2020-06-29 16:19:13 ~tiwesdaeg that's what seemed weird
2020-06-29 16:19:15 makeworld The one bug I do see is that it's not keeping the spaces. Like it should still add the backticks and stuff, but it should be all the left spaces, minus 4
2020-06-29 16:19:21 makeworld Yeah, even if it's a quote
2020-06-29 16:20:03 ~tiwesdaeg hmm, python markdown to html doesn't like ```
2020-06-29 16:20:13 makeworld What do you mean?
2020-06-29 16:20:32 makeworld Like your python converter won't work with ```?
2020-06-29 16:20:36 makeworld That's very strange
2020-06-29 16:20:36 ~tiwesdaeg yeah
2020-06-29 16:20:44 ~tiwesdaeg but I think the spaces do work
2020-06-29 16:20:48 ~tiwesdaeg I should just try that
2020-06-29 16:21:01 ~tiwesdaeg that cleans this all up nicely
2020-06-29 16:21:18 makeworld Yeah
2020-06-29 16:21:23 ~tiwesdaeg then I can still super indent
2020-06-29 16:21:41 makeworld I guess markdown isn't really made for that level of text formatting, where you can right justify things or whatever
2020-06-29 16:29:12 ~tiwesdaeg closer
2020-06-29 16:30:25 ~tiwesdaeg it's adding an extra blank line before the cosing ```
2020-06-29 16:36:02 makeworld md2gemini is?
2020-06-29 16:36:08 makeworld Can you send the new file?
2020-06-29 16:40:11 makeworld Aww the wp.pitr.ca cert is messed up
2020-06-29 16:44:19 makeworld I sent him an email
2020-06-29 17:15:36 @xq heya! it worked!
2020-06-29 17:15:38 @xq https://mq32.de/public/Kristall-nightly-x86_64.AppImage
2020-06-29 17:15:45 @xq if anyone wants to give it a shot
2020-06-29 17:15:55 @xq appimage linux-build of Kristall :)
2020-06-29 17:18:21 tastytea xq: Works fine here. 👍
2020-06-29 17:18:26 @xq neat!
2020-06-29 17:18:34 @xq next step: find out how to upload that to github
2020-06-29 17:18:40 @xq find out how to get docker run on Windows
2020-06-29 17:18:45 tastytea The font Qt uses is not my system font, but I guess that's an AppImage issue.
2020-06-29 17:18:50 @xq yeah
2020-06-29 17:19:38 @xq tastytea: what OS are you on?
2020-06-29 17:19:46 @xq distro, kernel version?
2020-06-29 17:19:46 tastytea Gentoo Linux.
2020-06-29 17:19:49 @xq oh, funky :D
2020-06-29 17:19:56 tastytea 5.4.48
2020-06-29 17:22:03 tastytea xq: If I click on the “Enable client certificate” button, I get error messages that :/icons/certificate.svg and :/icons/plus.svg can not be opened.
2020-06-29 17:22:13 tastytea qt.svg: Cannot open file ':/icons/certificate.svg', because: No such file or directory
2020-06-29 17:31:53 makeworld An AppImage is a good idea, nice
2020-06-29 17:32:06 makeworld You can upload that to Github as a release asset
2020-06-29 17:32:23 @xq oh, thanks
2020-06-29 17:32:29 @xq makeworld: i even plan nightlies! :D
2020-06-29 17:32:33 makeworld When you make a new release or edit an old one, there's a spot to upload artifacts/assets, whatever you want
2020-06-29 17:32:35 makeworld OOh
2020-06-29 17:32:38 makeworld *ooh
2020-06-29 17:32:52 makeworld Part of some CI pipeline or something?
2020-06-29 17:32:57 @xq yeah
2020-06-29 17:32:58 @xq github actions
2020-06-29 17:33:04 @xq you can emit artifacts from them
2020-06-29 17:33:10 makeworld Ah nic
2020-06-29 17:33:19 @xq and i can run them on linux and windows → windows exe release + 1
2020-06-29 17:33:31 makeworld So anyone who wants the latest build can get it from there, but otherwise they can download from the releases page
2020-06-29 17:33:41 makeworld Sounds good
2020-06-29 17:34:06 @xq yep
2020-06-29 17:34:09 @xq that's the plan :)
2020-06-29 17:34:31 @xq and if i have the muse, i will even make a automated android build after 0.5
2020-06-29 17:35:08 makeworld I'm thinking I'll have downloading and searching as the major features for Amfora v1.2.0. The features I'm actually excited about are streams and feed subscription, but those will take longer
2020-06-29 17:35:24 makeworld Wow Android? Oh yeah I guess QT supports that, I forgot
2020-06-29 17:35:31 makeworld Exciting
2020-06-29 17:36:15 @xq yep, it does
2020-06-29 17:36:22 @xq i even build a test apk already :D
2020-06-29 17:36:28 @xq it's crap on android, but works
2020-06-29 17:36:36 @xq also it doesn't save settings *facepalm*
2020-06-29 17:36:48 makeworld Ah, but it probably doesn't look great on a small screen with all the panels
2020-06-29 17:36:57 makeworld Oh that's weird,
2020-06-29 17:37:49 @xq yep, that is a problem as well
2020-06-29 17:38:03 @xq i will build a mobile app view
2020-06-29 17:38:16 @xq that allows to use Kristall easily on mobile, even with linux
2020-06-29 17:38:28 @xq no tabbed interface, but similar feature, ...
2020-06-29 17:40:00 makeworld Wow
2020-06-29 17:40:05 makeworld You're doing so much
2020-06-29 17:40:16 makeworld That would really be awesome yeah
2020-06-29 17:40:50 @xq yeah it will make a good point in the resume
2020-06-29 17:40:50 @xq :D
2020-06-29 17:55:18 makeworld Haha yeah definitely
2020-06-29 18:10:07 makeworld Hmm gus seems to be down
2020-06-29 18:10:40 makeworld It might be my fault, I sent a really long query string then stopped in the middle of the request
2020-06-29 18:11:00 @xq haha
2020-06-29 18:11:23 makeworld I think GUS isn't running with multiple processes, or a process manager?? So a very complex query can just take the whole thing offline while it responds to that user
2020-06-29 18:11:25 makeworld Yeesh
2020-06-29 18:16:48 ▬▬▶ omse has joined #gemini
2020-06-29 18:17:27 makeworld Uh oh, still down...
2020-06-29 18:17:45 makeworld Don't tell her lol
2020-06-29 18:17:55 ⚡ xq pokes natpen
2020-06-29 18:18:06 @xq whoopsies :D
2020-06-29 18:21:17 makeworld Heyyy
2020-06-29 18:21:18 makeworld Lol
2020-06-29 18:21:29 makeworld She never seems to be actually online anyways
2020-06-29 18:21:38 makeworld I've @'d her before
2020-06-29 18:23:52 makeworld Anyway, it's back up now
2020-06-29 19:21:39 makeworld Now Amfora can show you the link before you click it! Handy sometimes for debugging, like if I write a link incorrectly
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2020-06-29 19:59:58 epoch_ < login> epoch_: "<xq> epoch derailed me with a hackvr"
2020-06-29 20:00:00 epoch_ gracias
2020-06-29 20:00:11 @xq haha :D
2020-06-29 20:00:14 @xq hey epoch_
2020-06-29 20:00:17 epoch_ o/
2020-06-29 20:00:24 ⚡ xq is back on tracks for the moment, but i will return
2020-06-29 20:01:19 epoch_ I'm not even at home.
2020-06-29 20:01:40 epoch_ turbo failed to build though
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2020-06-29 20:29:27 @xq \o/
2020-06-29 20:29:27 @xq https://mq32.de/public/62a0ab4a17d060d37ea4f7a6b63172241e898df8.png
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2020-06-29 21:19:23 epoch_ where would be a good place to put an .xface file?
2020-06-29 21:20:32 epoch_ it isn't quite something I'd think of as going in ~/.config
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2020-06-29 21:21:05 epoch_ seems kind of like users could use a dir that is like /srv
2020-06-29 21:22:49 epoch_ stuff like .plan would go in a similar place
2020-06-29 21:23:17 epoch_ except .plan was before people thought to not pollute ~/.
2020-06-29 21:23:30 lukee xq: nice screenshot - I was thinking of implementing this for bookmarks in GemiNaut, but you beat me to it.
2020-06-29 21:23:39 tastytea $HOME/.local/share maybe?
2020-06-29 21:25:39 epoch_ I think share is supposed to be for between programs
2020-06-29 21:25:53 ⚡ epoch_ looks up what 'share' is supposed to be for
2020-06-29 21:26:51 lukee instead I have bookmark separators using lines starting "--" or "__"
2020-06-29 21:26:52 lukee https://imgur.com/a/d0fQmpe
2020-06-29 21:27:27 tastytea It's for “user specific data files“ according to <https://specifications.freedesktop.org/basedir-spec/basedir-spec-latest.html>.
2020-06-29 21:27:28 lukee Still might implement it later - it would become nested menus I think, rather than a treeview
2020-06-29 21:28:44 @xq lukee: thanks!
2020-06-29 21:28:48 ⚡ xq tries to be one step ahead :D
2020-06-29 21:29:27 ⚡ lukee lets xq have this one
2020-06-29 21:30:10 epoch_ if you're making lists of links, there's a urilist mime-type
2020-06-29 21:30:21 lukee I'm still working on polishing my gopher interface - its quite a lot of work to cover all the quirks and corner cases
2020-06-29 21:31:23 makeworld lukee: Folders of bookmarks would be nice probably
2020-06-29 21:31:25 epoch_ though urilist doesn't have to-end-of-line comments per-RFC, I've been usingt them as if the first space starts a comment
2020-06-29 21:31:42 epoch_ (since spaces aren't allowed in URIs anyway)
2020-06-29 21:32:02 makeworld Also I'm unsure about whether Amfora should ever have Gopher support. It might be nice, but there's already Bombadillo for that, and Gopher is kind of crusty, so to speak
2020-06-29 21:32:08 makeworld In comparison to Gemini, anyway
2020-06-29 21:32:22 makeworld In any case, it wouldn't be a priority
2020-06-29 21:32:43 lukee but I'm hoping I have the prettiest Gopher pages now
2020-06-29 21:32:44 lukee https://imgur.com/a/bTSqrnI
2020-06-29 21:33:09 lukee Actually the more I work with Gopher, the more respect I have
2020-06-29 21:33:41 lukee There is a lot of synergy with Gemini
2020-06-29 21:34:04 lukee but it is really just a text + links domain only
2020-06-29 21:34:46 lukee With a bit of creativitiy there's a lot you can do
2020-06-29 21:35:18 lukee like there is Gopherpedia gopher://gopherpedia.com
2020-06-29 21:35:43 lukee Hacker news gopher://hngopher.com/
2020-06-29 21:35:51 lukee and the ubiquitous Phlogs
2020-06-29 21:36:25 lukee I still like Gemini better though
2020-06-29 21:37:44 lukee makeworld: I finally have done some minor updates on gemget - hopefully of broader utility. Would you be interested to consider adopting them into your code base?
2020-06-29 21:39:29 lukee broadly speaking my changes are:
2020-06-29 21:40:23 lukee 1. new -h flag to show the Gemini response in stdout. This helps the user or calling applications make better use of the content. Especially to get the mime type and other info
2020-06-29 21:42:00 lukee 2. better labelling of output, into 3 groups: "*** Info: <message> ***", "*** Error: <something went wrong> ***" and "*** Header: <server response> ***
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2020-06-29 21:43:22 lukee These make the interface from GemiNaut less of a hack, but perhaps more useful in providing better context to human readers or other automating clients
2020-06-29 21:57:43 lukee I created a github issue for this with more context.
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2020-06-29 23:11:39 @tomasino xq: thanks for watering my plant!
2020-06-29 23:12:07 @tomasino I'm gonna be traveling this week so I won't be around to water it. If any of you have a chance to pop in and keep it alive I'd appreciate it. Home Saturday
2020-06-29 23:14:25 makeworld lukee: Sounds interesting thanks! I'll take a look and respond more in the issue you created
2020-06-29 23:14:47 makeworld And those Gopher pages do look nice :)
2020-06-29 23:15:40 ⚡ tomasino looks in from over at his gopher shrine
2020-06-29 23:37:59 makeworld lukee: I'm thinking about removing the asterisks entirely, and just outputing all the extra info on stderr
2020-06-29 23:38:43 lukee fine with removing the asterisks.
2020-06-29 23:39:01 makeworld Ok, sounds good
2020-06-29 23:39:17 lukee but some of the info is not error info, like the headers and general info. perhaps error responses would be better on stderr I agree
2020-06-29 23:39:52 makeworld I'll make some changes based on your new file and commit them, and you can let me know what you think. I'll probably update you in the issue once that's doen
2020-06-29 23:40:05 makeworld Yeah I'm thinking everything except the file and the header would be in stderr, even infos
2020-06-29 23:40:27 lukee sure I'll take a look
2020-06-29 23:40:53 makeworld That way you can separate the parsing, so any non-content stuff would be on stderr
2020-06-29 23:41:11 lukee seems reasonable
2020-06-29 23:42:13 lukee I'll keep an eye out for it. For now it is late here and I should head upstairs to Bedford
2020-06-29 23:45:01 makeworld Ha, alright
2020-06-29 23:45:13 makeworld See you later, I'll update you when anything changes
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2020-06-30 01:12:26 ~tiwesdaeg xq: I know you're probably sleeping peacefully, but I finally tried kristall in i3
2020-06-30 01:12:44 ~tiwesdaeg it works properly, so it's definitely something to do with xfce at least
2020-06-30 01:12:58 ~tiwesdaeg at least on manjaro
2020-06-30 01:13:11 ~tiwesdaeg xfce on freebsd displays the icons just fine
2020-06-30 01:17:25 ~tiwesdaeg Also, I opened up Qt5 Configuration Tool and Kate
2020-06-30 01:17:40 ~tiwesdaeg Kate responds to changes in the QT theme, but kristall does not
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2020-06-30 08:51:59 @xq tiwesdaeg: thanks for the report
2020-06-30 08:52:20 @xq i got a message by linuxdeployqt that i'm missing two plugins for GTK1
2020-06-30 08:52:23 @xq *GTK2
2020-06-30 08:52:27 @xq it may be them?
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2020-06-30 10:59:37 kensanata Gemini Wiki now has spaces, that is: independent wikis separated by a prefix. Thus, gemini://alexschroeder.ch:1968/ and gemini://alexschroeder.ch:1968/test are two wikis.
2020-06-30 11:01:22 kensanata And now I need to look for lunch.
2020-06-30 11:10:22 @julienxx Made a new small bits log gemini://9til.de/users/~julienxx/
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2020-06-30 11:43:04 ~tiwesdaeg nice
2020-06-30 11:43:51 ~tiwesdaeg I'm guessing right wing parties in France are probably like our right leaning democrats in america
2020-06-30 11:47:07 kensanata That piece of news also cheered me up. :)
2020-06-30 12:04:14 dkibi julienxx: is the right wing that was ruling in Bordeaux the conservative kind or the nationalist kind (front national kind)? The town I live in also swaped for the first time in 73 years, I hope it helps there were so many bad decicions made over the years
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2020-06-30 12:11:53 @julienxx No regular right wing, just conservatives
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2020-06-30 12:23:24 @julienxx In France a lot of cities turned green, that was a good election day :)
2020-06-30 12:26:06 wgreenhouse kensanata: is gemini wiki part of oddmuse, or its own new thing?
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2020-06-30 12:40:48 kensanata wgreenhouse: The one I've been working on is independent.
2020-06-30 12:42:18 kensanata wgreenhouse: different tools for different jobs: gemini-server is the add-on that I use for my website; gemini-wikipeida is the wikipedia proxy, gemini-wiki is that stand-alone wiki; gemini-titan are the two shell functions I use all the time, gemini-write is the Elpher extension... Phew! 😅
2020-06-30 12:44:48 @julienxx noticed someone looking for a robot.txt in my logs, has it been defined somewhere?
2020-06-30 12:46:59 dkibi julienxx: yeah I'm speaking of another french town, I happen to live in France (but I don't speak french and my passport lists another statate)
2020-06-30 12:48:31 dkibi (I don't say I'm not french, because I won a team pétanque game against a middle aged couple on a 14th of July celebration once)
2020-06-30 12:50:02 @julienxx where do you live?
2020-06-30 12:50:04 companion_cube beginner's luck!
2020-06-30 12:50:55 dkibi julienxx: Nancy
2020-06-30 12:51:32 dkibi companion_cube: nah, mostly good team partner and juggling for many years helps too
2020-06-30 12:52:22 @julienxx Nancy is a really pretty city from what I recall
2020-06-30 12:53:56 kensanata julienxx: Yeah, natpen looks at your robots.txt
2020-06-30 12:54:18 @xq heyja
2020-06-30 12:54:49 @julienxx kensanata: ah cool, any idea what I should put inside?
2020-06-30 12:54:50 ~tiwesdaeg hallo
2020-06-30 12:55:06 kensanata julienxx: the official docs is here: gemini://gus.guru/about
2020-06-30 12:55:09 dkibi it has some very pretty houses thanks to the art novau movment that exists here and it has a beautiful old town, but sadly it's not consistent and some part suffer heavily from a car oriented architecture and out of the center one sees the signs of gernal bad economic state (lot of empty factory areas)
2020-06-30 12:55:33 kensanata julienxx: mine is here: gemini://alexschroeder.ch/robots.txt
2020-06-30 12:55:41 @julienxx kensanata: thanks!
2020-06-30 12:55:59 kensanata julienxx: basically I want to exclude GUS from indexing the history pages, the old revisions, the list of changes, all the dynamic stuff.
2020-06-30 12:56:37 kensanata Hm, now that I think about it, I think Gemini Wiki should come with a default robots.txt
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2020-06-30 13:05:42 ~tiwesdaeg I checked email this morning expecting 50 new messages
2020-06-30 13:05:51 ~tiwesdaeg I guess everyone took a break
2020-06-30 13:07:02 @julienxx yeah that's pretty calm, I thought my mailserver was having issues :D
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2020-06-30 13:54:49 kensanata I'm reusing an idea I had for another wiki: colour coding contributors by giving them each a little "flag" since we don't have usernames in Gemini Wiki: gemini://alexschroeder.ch:1968/do/changes
2020-06-30 13:55:29 kensanata IP to 32bit hash, to octal, take first four digits, use the standard eight colours to colourize...
2020-06-30 13:56:29 kensanata Reading the mailing list from https://lists.orbitalfox.eu/archives/gemini/2020/date.html is ... weird.
2020-06-30 13:56:38 kensanata And getting weirder the longer this archive gets.
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2020-06-30 14:08:14 @julienxx 1707 messages for 2020, damn
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2020-06-30 15:25:14 makeworld kensanata: Wait so titan is formalized now?
2020-06-30 15:25:20 makeworld When the heck did that happen
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2020-06-30 15:25:38 makeworld Or have you just taken it and run with it
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2020-06-30 15:35:51 makeworld This titan stuff is freaking me out lol, I didn't realize it was being used in the wild
2020-06-30 15:36:05 makeworld I hoped it would have been formalized more. with more discussion
2020-06-30 15:36:06 @xq hey makeworld
2020-06-30 15:36:18 makeworld Hello!
2020-06-30 15:36:19 ⚡ xq is doing stupid stuff
2020-06-30 15:36:49 makeworld Hackvr? :P
2020-06-30 15:36:58 @xq nah
2020-06-30 15:37:01 @xq https://mq32.de/public/abcb780deceb579dbb68ad918be07b355869a1e9.png
2020-06-30 15:37:07 @xq installing windows 10 in a VM
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2020-06-30 15:37:26 @xq on a AMD Athlon(tm) II X2 250e
2020-06-30 15:40:02 @xq but something has to build a Kristall windows nightly version :D
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2020-06-30 15:44:46 makeworld Oh interesting
2020-06-30 15:45:02 makeworld You're going to keep that VM running all the time?
2020-06-30 15:45:06 makeworld Or it's on a dedicated machine
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2020-06-30 15:52:34 @xq it's a dedicated machine
2020-06-30 15:53:33 @xq plan is to power up the machine at some time of the day automatically, let it pull and build the latest kristall binaries and deploy them on my server
2020-06-30 15:57:55 kensanata makeworld: Feel free to discuss now. :D
2020-06-30 15:58:26 makeworld xq: Cool! Why a VM if it's a dedicated machine though? ;)
2020-06-30 15:58:38 kensanata makeworld: Basically I had written up gemini+write, and made some experiments, then I read that post on the mailing list and thought it was slightly better than what I had, so I switched horses...
2020-06-30 15:58:47 @xq because it has to run the docker/linux build as well :)
2020-06-30 15:59:02 makeworld Did you add/change things to Titan from what was discussed on the mailing list?
2020-06-30 15:59:40 makeworld It'd be nice to see you put your wiki/blog/thing on CAPCOM ken, bc I think a lot of this cool wiki stuff is happening off to the side and people aren't necessarily aware of it
2020-06-30 15:59:47 makeworld xq: Ah okay lo
2020-06-30 15:59:49 makeworld *lol
2020-06-30 16:01:24 acdw I agree with makeworld, kensanata. I mostly check CAPCOM and would love to see your updates
2020-06-30 16:01:50 kensanata makeworld: Not that I remember. There was a lot more proposed by baschdel for their dragonstone client, though. This is how my stuff evolved: https://alexschroeder.ch/wiki/2020-06-04_Gemini_Upload Baschdel's proposal also got posted on the wiki here: https://alexschroeder.ch/wiki/Baschdels_spin_on_Gemini_uploading
2020-06-30 16:02:33 makeworld Hmm
2020-06-30 16:03:05 makeworld It's cool that you're using stuff in the wild, I'd just love to see some sort of consensus, where most of the community comes together to agree on one method of doing it
2020-06-30 16:03:13 kensanata Basically it was just the two of us, and I was too lazy to implement his approach which seemed to involve the server maintaining state and having a back-and-forth with the client.
2020-06-30 16:03:30 makeworld Cause right now, as a client author, I don't feel assured that Titan will be what everyone uses, y'know?
2020-06-30 16:03:36 makeworld Ah ok
2020-06-30 16:03:56 kensanata I agree with consensus, but I'm also of the mind "rough consensus and two independent implementations" are good enough, or something like that.
2020-06-30 16:05:27 kensanata Like, somebody writes a proposal, somebody writes some code, and then we'll see whether it gets any traction. Remember that from where I'm at, most people I know posted phlog posts saying nah, we don't need comments; we like our self-hosted stuff...
2020-06-30 16:05:50 kensanata And so I'm thinking: well, I gotta do what I like, and maybe some people like what they see and then there'll more of us.
2020-06-30 16:06:00 @xq Windows 10 is soooooo slow
2020-06-30 16:06:02 makeworld tomasino: Natalie responded to a email I sent (about something else), and said she saw the IRC logs and will be adding backlinking search to GUS!
2020-06-30 16:06:51 makeworld kensanata: Yeah, I totally get that, what you're doing is great! I just also want to see more discussion. But having stuff that actually works is always cool
2020-06-30 16:07:26 kensanata I took some quotes from the mailing list at the time to remind myself where I'm at... https://alexschroeder.ch/wiki/2020-06-04_Gemini_Upload
2020-06-30 16:08:52 kensanata As for discussion, at the time when I participated in the mailing list by sending an email once or twice, I got a reply by somebody saying that my messages were triggering all sorts of bounces because of the anti-spam measures of my provider. I decided it was better to unsubscribe than to fiddle with email setup. So now I just read the archives every now and then.
2020-06-30 16:10:47 makeworld Hmm, that's weird
2020-06-30 16:11:03 kensanata acdw: As for CAPCOM, at the time I looked into it an Atom feed was required and my site only produces a RSS 2.0 feed. Now, the current code I have produces both, but my homepage uses the old Oddmuse-Gemini bridge glue code which still does not. At the time I think I had seen solderpunk say that he was going to add RSS support eventually, so I decided to wait.
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2020-06-30 16:13:26 kensanata makeworld: You mean, the mailing list issues? I think if you look at the archive, you can look at all the mails that say "SPOOFED". https://lists.orbitalfox.eu/archives/gemini/2020/date.html That has something to do with it.
2020-06-30 16:14:07 kensanata And if somebody knows a bit about mail and spam and all that, I'd appreciate help. :D https://alexschroeder.ch/wiki/2020-06-04_DMARC_an_Mailing_Lists
2020-06-30 16:15:36 makeworld kensanata: CAPCOM is still Atom only afaik
2020-06-30 16:15:41 makeworld BUt
2020-06-30 16:15:53 makeworld *But maybe you can find something that will convert your RSS feed?
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2020-06-30 16:17:07 kensanata Yeah, maybe.
2020-06-30 16:17:24 @tomasino Brilliant!
2020-06-30 16:17:55 acdw kensanata: ahh that makes sense. it shouldn't be too hard to convert b/w RSS & ATOM though . They're verrry similar
2020-06-30 16:18:00 makeworld Yeah it's great, she's been awesome
2020-06-30 16:18:01 kensanata I mean, the wiki software itself has an Atom extension, but that's going to be full of HTTP links. I just need to sit down and write something in an hour or two.
2020-06-30 16:18:21 makeworld Ooh I just realized that gemget can handle streams beautifully
2020-06-30 16:20:44 makeworld That's fun
2020-06-30 16:22:30 makeworld I mean I guess it's obvious, but I didn't think about using it like that
2020-06-30 16:23:18 kensanata Gotta water some plants now. But if anybody wants to talk about Titan or other ways to edit sites via a protocol that is as close as possible to Gemini, feel free to mention me on this channel, or any other way to contact me → https://alexschroeder.ch/wiki/Contact
2020-06-30 16:23:32 makeworld Real plants or virtual plants?
2020-06-30 16:23:37 kensanata Real plants! :D
2020-06-30 16:23:41 makeworld :D
2020-06-30 16:23:53 kensanata Now you're reminding me of astrobotany!
2020-06-30 16:24:31 kensanata "Your plant is wilting, it will die soon without water!" Gaaah
2020-06-30 16:31:49 @xq hmm. windows build complete, crashes at startup
2020-06-30 16:35:06 @xq okay, was just a missing DLL
2020-06-30 16:43:26 acdw OOf I keep forgetting about my regular tilde.town botany plant
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2020-06-30 17:05:16 makeworld I've ignored my plant for weeks...
2020-06-30 17:05:27 companion_cube you monsters
2020-06-30 17:05:28 makeworld Maybe once I add certs to Amfora I'll maintain it again lol
2020-06-30 17:06:09 acdw saaamee
2020-06-30 17:07:04 makeworld Oh haha with bollux you mean?
2020-06-30 17:07:11 makeworld How's bollux doing?
2020-06-30 17:08:31 makeworld On demifiend recent post about text modes he mentioned using bollux and Amfora for terminal Gemini browsing. I felt bad Bombadillo didn't get a shoutout but it's cool to see Amfora on someone's radar!
2020-06-30 17:09:32 ⚡ makeworld afk, washing a shed
2020-06-30 17:17:45 acdw yes
2020-06-30 17:18:09 acdw makeworld: I know what you mean!! It's great to see people using my software
2020-06-30 17:18:14 acdw even if I haven't updated it in a few weeks
2020-06-30 17:18:29 acdw I wrote but haven't pushed a certificate validation function
2020-06-30 17:18:38 acdw I still need to do client certs -- that's my #1 thing rn
2020-06-30 17:18:47 acdw that is, when you get back you'll see this I guess
2020-06-30 17:18:47 acdw :P
2020-06-30 17:19:50 @xq yissssss
2020-06-30 17:19:58 ⚡ xq has made a windows build for kristall
2020-06-30 17:21:49 acdw awesome!
2020-06-30 17:21:55 @xq yes!
2020-06-30 17:22:10 ⚡ acdw remembers I'm *using* windows RN
2020-06-30 17:22:23 @xq wanna do a test run?
2020-06-30 17:22:52 acdw YES
2020-06-30 17:22:54 acdw plz
2020-06-30 17:23:03 @xq give me a sec
2020-06-30 17:23:05 acdw fyi if it needs admin permissions I can't
2020-06-30 17:23:09 acdw b/c I am totally non-admin
2020-06-30 17:23:12 @xq are you mad?!
2020-06-30 17:23:14 @xq :D
2020-06-30 17:23:16 acdw haha nah
2020-06-30 17:23:26 @xq why would i need admin rights?
2020-06-30 17:23:28 acdw oh you mean coocoo? maybe
2020-06-30 17:23:39 ⚡ xq hates installer with all of his heart
2020-06-30 17:23:40 acdw idk !! sometimes programs need em
2020-06-30 17:23:43 acdw :D
2020-06-30 17:23:45 acdw You *get* me
2020-06-30 17:24:01 acdw I even run pip install --user on my own machine
2020-06-30 17:24:12 acdw I've seriously thought about nix-env'ing EVERYTHING
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2020-06-30 17:33:17 @xq it's harder to extract a file from a windows VM than setting up the whole build chain :D
2020-06-30 17:35:27 acdw lol
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2020-06-30 18:48:17 @xq \o/
2020-06-30 18:48:29 @xq Windows: https://kristall.random-projects.net/download/kristall-nightly.zip
2020-06-30 18:48:29 @xq Linux: https://kristall.random-projects.net/download/Kristall-nightly-x86_64.AppImage
2020-06-30 18:49:11 makeworld Nice!
2020-06-30 18:49:35 @xq yes!
2020-06-30 18:49:39 @xq 95% automated
2020-06-30 18:49:46 @xq i just need the nightly trigger
2020-06-30 18:49:55 makeworld Cron job?
2020-06-30 18:50:15 makeworld With @daily or just the manual values
2020-06-30 18:50:48 makeworld Cron is so great
2020-06-30 18:51:05 @xq yeah, maybe
2020-06-30 18:51:11 @xq i don't want the machine to run 100% of the time though
2020-06-30 18:51:21 @xq btw *rofl*
2020-06-30 18:51:22 @xq https://kristall.random-projects.net/
2020-06-30 18:51:29 @xq my site is currently mirrored into web space
2020-06-30 18:51:36 @xq without gemini→html translation *rofl*
2020-06-30 18:51:39 makeworld Haha
2020-06-30 18:51:48 @xq correctly served as text/gemini
2020-06-30 18:51:49 makeworld Cron should work even with shutdowns and stuff btw
2020-06-30 18:52:00 @xq but hey, Kristall is the only browser that can serve that right
2020-06-30 18:52:06 @xq yeah, not sure for windows
2020-06-30 18:52:16 @xq also i need a plan on how to wake up the machine
2020-06-30 18:52:18 ▬▬▶ coleman has joined #gemini
2020-06-30 18:52:31 makeworld Hah you're right! I was surprised to see the native HTTP support, but why not? Also surprised to see the TOFU for HTTPS, but again, pretty cool
2020-06-30 18:52:56 makeworld xq: xkcd style, with a timer on the power? Lol
2020-06-30 18:53:36 @xq makeworld: yeah, it wasn't much work to build both on top of Qt and Gemini handling :D
2020-06-30 18:53:38 @xq so: why not? :D
2020-06-30 18:53:42 @xq haha :D
2020-06-30 18:53:56 @xq hey, i have network-switchable power outlets
2020-06-30 18:54:09 makeworld Oh fancy
2020-06-30 18:54:10 makeworld Nice
2020-06-30 18:54:18 makeworld Maybe use that then
2020-06-30 18:54:20 @xq and then i will probably just do a "make CI on startup, shutdown the machine when both are done"
2020-06-30 18:54:27 makeworld Yeah
2020-06-30 18:54:44 makeworld Prob want to send a shutdown command over ssh, wait 30s, then shut off power
2020-06-30 18:54:58 makeworld Then power on and wait for SSH for the build
2020-06-30 18:55:01 @xq something like that, yeah
2020-06-30 18:55:16 @xq for now, it's fine by doing the "nightly" by hand though
2020-06-30 18:55:57 @xq i wonder if i can get nginx to proxy-pass all *.gemini files into my lua script and keep the rest with "static pass"
2020-06-30 19:12:18 ▬▬▶ lukee has joined #gemini
2020-06-30 19:14:45 @xq hey lukee
2020-06-30 19:14:55 epoch_ o/
2020-06-30 19:17:26 lukee hi xq
2020-06-30 19:18:50 lukee I saw in the IRC log that you are doing automated windows builds now?
2020-06-30 19:18:54 @xq yep!
2020-06-30 19:19:01 @xq there's a link above if you wanna try
2020-06-30 19:19:27 lukee ooh I'll try it
2020-06-30 19:20:35 lukee ---------------------------
2020-06-30 19:20:35 lukee kristall.exe - System Error
2020-06-30 19:20:35 lukee ---------------------------
2020-06-30 19:20:35 lukee The code execution cannot proceed because MSVCR100.dll was not found. Reinstalling the program may fix this problem.
2020-06-30 19:20:35 lukee ---------------------------
2020-06-30 19:20:37 lukee OK
2020-06-30 19:20:39 lukee ---------------------------
2020-06-30 19:20:48 lukee is this a missing dependency?
2020-06-30 19:22:07 @xq huh
2020-06-30 19:22:13 @xq i did build it with mingw…
2020-06-30 19:22:17 @xq what windows are you on?
2020-06-30 19:22:31 lukee I dropped them in from another app I have using Qt
2020-06-30 19:22:39 lukee I'm on Win10 x64
2020-06-30 19:22:44 lukee it started now.
2020-06-30 19:23:07 @xq huh
2020-06-30 19:23:50 lukee otherwise it works. looks nice
2020-06-30 19:23:53 @xq hmm
2020-06-30 19:23:59 @xq can you remove the DLL and install https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=14632 instead?
2020-06-30 19:24:43 lukee ok stand by..
2020-06-30 19:25:00 ⚡ xq wants to do that the *right* way
2020-06-30 19:26:00 ⚡ lukee admires xq's diligence
2020-06-30 19:26:12 @xq \o/
2020-06-30 19:27:02 lukee yeah that worked too
2020-06-30 19:27:50 lukee I'll take it for a spin. I'm so used to using GemiNaut it will be exciting to see geminispace through a different lens
2020-06-30 19:28:24 lukee Can't you just bundle the dependencies into the zip?
2020-06-30 19:29:19 @xq the right way is to use the installer, so i will add a troubleshouting as well as the option for "fuck security, i don't care"
2020-06-30 19:30:44 lukee a v small thing: on the navigation menu it should be Forward not Foreward
2020-06-30 19:31:00 @xq haha
2020-06-30 19:31:01 @xq Foreword!
2020-06-30 19:31:19 lukee Also perhaps just Back, not Backward (to be same as webbrowsers)?
2020-06-30 19:32:02 @xq changed
2020-06-30 19:32:28 ▬▬▶ craigo has joined #gemini
2020-06-30 19:34:16 lukee it all seems to work nicely - well done
2020-06-30 19:35:16 epoch_ who decided on "back" and "forward" anyway?
2020-06-30 19:35:41 epoch_ it seems like "up" and "downward" or "upward" and "down"
2020-06-30 19:35:49 lukee probably Mosaic? I'm guessing
2020-06-30 19:36:13 epoch_ "stopage" and "go"
2020-06-30 19:36:20 epoch_ :>
2020-06-30 19:36:28 lukee backward implies something is done in an old fashioned awkward way
2020-06-30 19:36:42 lukee so maybe they wanted to avoid the connotation
2020-06-30 19:36:43 ⚡ xq ain't native speaker
2020-06-30 19:37:07 epoch_ why not next and previous?
2020-06-30 19:37:19 lukee your English ist besser als meine Deutsch
2020-06-30 19:37:35 @xq haha, thanks
2020-06-30 19:37:50 @xq yeah, i'm at the point where people may confuse you for a native speaker
2020-06-30 19:38:01 @xq and then you start struggling because you don't know words :D
2020-06-30 19:38:05 lukee that's a compliment
2020-06-30 19:38:37 @xq yeah, i'm proud of my english skills :)
2020-06-30 19:38:42 @xq demoscene does it's part
2020-06-30 19:38:46 lukee I like the Kristall icon
2020-06-30 19:38:49 @xq when the only common language is english
2020-06-30 19:39:33 lukee ooh undockable windows and tabs
2020-06-30 19:40:39 @xq welcome to Kristall! The most pleasant Gemini experience!
2020-06-30 19:40:49 lukee maybe just a personal preference, but for me the font in the address bar and the tab titles is a bit small
2020-06-30 19:40:49 epoch_ https://www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee/WorldWideWeb.html
2020-06-30 19:41:01 epoch_ "The Navigate menu had things like "back" and "next" and "previous". these last two were useful when you follows a link from a list of links- they meant "go back a step and then take the next link from the same page instead"."
2020-06-30 19:41:03 lukee ha ha
2020-06-30 19:41:16 @xq epoch_: oh yeah that was crazy
2020-06-30 19:43:23 lukee If I navigate a link from a search page (e.g. GUS) then go backwards, it sometimes asks me to submit a new query, but I just want to see the listing again.
2020-06-30 19:44:03 epoch_ give choice of "resubmit" or "use cached version"?
2020-06-30 19:45:21 lukee The approach I took in GemiNaut is to navigate back and forward through history. Only if you click on a link that requires input does it open the input box
2020-06-30 19:45:49 makeworld Same for Amfora
2020-06-30 19:46:07 lukee Anyway the links in Gemini are designed really to be idempotent (GET, no POST yet), so I think you can cache without harm
2020-06-30 19:46:15 makeworld Any non-content URLs are never added to history: redirects, input, errors, etc
2020-06-30 19:46:16 @xq lukee: it's the same in Kristall, but navigating back reloads the page
2020-06-30 19:46:41 @xq and the location without input is requested again
2020-06-30 19:46:42 lukee yes but that may not be what the user will expect
2020-06-30 19:46:52 @xq yeah, i need to make that more convenient
2020-06-30 19:47:07 lukee the user can reload if it suits him or her
2020-06-30 19:48:29 epoch_ < lukee> Anyway the links in Gemini are designed really to be idempotent (GET, no POST yet), so I think you can cache without harm
2020-06-30 19:48:36 lukee I think the work you have done on certificates is quite something. I dont have any of that yet - waiting for the spec to settle a bit
2020-06-30 19:48:38 epoch_ someone has a comment system over gemini I think
2020-06-30 19:48:51 lukee yes, but it is a hack IMO
2020-06-30 19:48:54 epoch_ and I don't think there's a random value to prevent double-posts
2020-06-30 19:48:57 @xq lukee: i don't think the specs will change much anymore
2020-06-30 19:49:02 makeworld Hello, it's me
2020-06-30 19:49:11 @xq hello makeworld :D
2020-06-30 19:49:23 lukee hello
2020-06-30 19:49:43 makeworld I don't think double posts will happen if you reload a comment URL with a query though
2020-06-30 19:49:55 makeworld You have to load the URL without a query, then with the query
2020-06-30 19:50:15 lukee this part of Gemini is not well thought through IMO
2020-06-30 19:50:31 makeworld Actually, you need to load the URL with a filename as the query first, then the with your comment as the query. It's kinda hacky lol
2020-06-30 19:50:51 craigo has left #gemini
2020-06-30 19:51:07 lukee just think of gemini URLs as GET and supposed to be idempotent and you will be fine
2020-06-30 19:51:31 epoch_ I remember seeing something similar to <title> for gemini pages. Was it just the first header to show up in the page?
2020-06-30 19:52:00 epoch_ I might make a title bot I have attempt showing the title for gemini links too.
2020-06-30 19:52:07 @xq epoch_: that's what i want to implement for Kristall
2020-06-30 19:52:09 epoch_ what does gus use?
2020-06-30 19:52:30 epoch_ I don't have a link to gus saved. :/
2020-06-30 19:52:47 @xq gemini://gus.guru/
2020-06-30 19:52:51 lukee I think it uses the first heading in the page, or first line of text. Many of the clients do this too
2020-06-30 19:52:58 epoch_ xq: gracias
2020-06-30 19:53:06 ⚡ xq has structured favourites
2020-06-30 19:53:09 ⚡ xq finds all the stuff :D
2020-06-30 19:53:42 epoch_ I just keep a long text file of tagged URLs
2020-06-30 19:55:10 makeworld Using the first heading is a good strategy
2020-06-30 19:55:50 makeworld I'm working my way through my Github Sponsors profile now, xq you should do the same! You've put a lot of work into Kristall
2020-06-30 19:57:00 lukee what is that?
2020-06-30 19:58:05 @xq makeworld: hmm *thinking*
2020-06-30 19:58:10 @xq what do i have to do for this?
2020-06-30 19:58:26 makeworld lukee: It's a payment system through Github, like Patreon but 0% cut
2020-06-30 19:58:40 lukee does it work?
2020-06-30 19:59:20 makeworld xq: It's a small application that is auto-approved I think, and then you set up your profile which is human reviewed. It seems pretty painless so far, just some bio writing. I also set up a Ko-Fi which is *very* quick and easy
2020-06-30 19:59:22 ⚡ lukee dreams of a £1 hourly rate
2020-06-30 19:59:26 @xq yeah, afaik github doubles payment stuff
2020-06-30 19:59:38 @xq oh neat
2020-06-30 19:59:50 makeworld It's nice to have Ko-Fi as well because people can do one-off payments, but Github has to be recurring
2020-06-30 20:00:03 makeworld Yeah they match up to some large amount, I forget
2020-06-30 20:00:05 lukee Ko-Fi is?
2020-06-30 20:00:13 lukee Sorry, learning new stuff here...
2020-06-30 20:00:23 makeworld All good, what's the question though?
2020-06-30 20:00:32 lukee What is Ko-Fi?
2020-06-30 20:02:25 ▬▬▶ everbern has joined #gemini
2020-06-30 20:02:38 makeworld It's another payment platform
2020-06-30 20:02:41 lukee is it this: https://ko-fi.com/
2020-06-30 20:02:44 makeworld Yes
2020-06-30 20:03:02 makeworld I wanted to do both, because Github Sponsors is recurring, but Ko-Fi isn't
2020-06-30 20:03:27 lukee I'm thinking does it rhyme with Lo-Fi, but then the penny dropped...
2020-06-30 20:04:12 epoch_ gemini-git "$uri" | grep '^#' | head -n1
2020-06-30 20:04:16 epoch_ get*
2020-06-30 20:05:33 makeworld xq: Let me know if you setup Github Sponsors and/or Ko-Fi
2020-06-30 20:05:40 @xq will do
2020-06-30 20:06:17 lukee I might look into it
2020-06-30 20:07:13 makeworld Yeah you too!
2020-06-30 20:07:22 makeworld For sure, GemiNaut is popular
2020-06-30 20:08:13 lukee new release coming soon, the GemiNaut <3 Gopher release
2020-06-30 20:08:37 lukee and with new enhanced gemget!
2020-06-30 20:09:54 makeworld Oh nice!
2020-06-30 20:09:57 makeworld :D
2020-06-30 20:12:11 lukee xq: I turned on https/http, then when I go to a https URL I get an empty message box: "" Yes/No?
2020-06-30 20:12:20 lukee Do I press yes or no :)
2020-06-30 20:12:39 lukee I went with yes
2020-06-30 20:13:34 @xq oh…
2020-06-30 20:13:37 @xq i noticed that too
2020-06-30 20:13:40 lukee nice you have simple html rendering
2020-06-30 20:13:43 @xq is probably a redirectoin question
2020-06-30 20:14:40 lukee Are you parsing and sanitising the HTML yourself? Its a lot of work!
2020-06-30 20:14:59 xj9 has left #gemini
2020-06-30 20:15:47 @xq nah, that's actually Qt
2020-06-30 20:16:11 ⚡ lukee thanks the gods for useful libraries
2020-06-30 20:17:27 @xq yeah
2020-06-30 20:17:36 lukee I was playing around today with a library called "readability" which sanitises HTML.
2020-06-30 20:18:28 lukee I might plug it in, but its not very fast.
2020-06-30 20:19:25 lukee but that fits in with the idea of the slow internet. Not rushing ahead at the earlies moment to consume the next cat video
2020-06-30 20:19:47 lukee This web page is slow - Are you thankful? Yes/No/Cancel
2020-06-30 20:20:54 lukee I'm sort of interested in a generic HTML->GMI conversion pathway. Could be useful in a number of contexts
2020-06-30 20:23:22 lukee We could have a slogan for Gemini
2020-06-30 20:23:27 lukee Clean and Fast hypertext: Gemini
2020-06-30 20:23:43 lukee Slow and packed with surveillace: The Web
2020-06-30 20:28:23 epoch_ now make it into a rap
2020-06-30 20:29:21 epoch_ rap battle: http vs gemini
2020-06-30 20:29:40 lukee you hum the tune and I'll get the homies
2020-06-30 20:29:58 epoch_ hrm.
2020-06-30 20:30:06 ⚡ epoch_ looks into midi format
2020-06-30 20:30:24 epoch_ or just bytebeat
2020-06-30 20:31:06 lukee there are some poets in Geminispace - we should get them to pen some lines
2020-06-30 20:32:56 makeworld Definitely
2020-06-30 20:38:03 lukee xq: if I have the rendering as plain text, is there a way to navigate the links?
2020-06-30 20:38:29 lukee I wasnt sure what that mode is for - is it a kind of view->source?
2020-06-30 20:39:56 @xq nope, plain text is plain text :D
2020-06-30 20:39:59 @xq removes all decoratoins :D
2020-06-30 20:40:05 @xq View→Source is planned though
2020-06-30 20:40:24 lukee ok - that makes more sense
2020-06-30 20:45:53 ▬▬▶ acdw has joined #gemini
2020-06-30 20:47:41 makeworld Ok I take it back, the GIthub Sponsors process is long
2020-06-30 20:47:57 acdw yooo xq kristall on windows ROX
2020-06-30 20:48:01 acdw it's a grand ol time
2020-06-30 20:48:07 makeworld I think it'll be worth it, but you have to enable 2FA and digitally sign a tax form and stuff lol
2020-06-30 20:48:09 @xq \o/
2020-06-30 20:48:23 acdw 2 things: forms on https don't work (so gemlog.blue is bleh, but it's okay) and it doesn't do the streaming chat.mozz.us thing
2020-06-30 20:48:25 acdw but that's okay too
2020-06-30 20:48:45 @xq forms won't work
2020-06-30 20:48:49 @xq streaming will work eventually
2020-06-30 20:48:54 acdw :D
2020-06-30 20:48:57 acdw awesome possum
2020-06-30 20:49:07 lukee the chat.mozz thing is unspecified
2020-06-30 20:49:14 acdw yes it is!
2020-06-30 20:49:21 acdw it's all kinds of weirdness
2020-06-30 20:49:37 makeworld It's pretty cool though
2020-06-30 20:49:51 makeworld I was so excited to see it work for gemget, and it's on my v1.3.0 Amfora roadmap
2020-06-30 20:49:55 acdw I'm jsut worried it'll replace IRC and I am not ready for that
2020-06-30 20:50:28 makeworld It won't
2020-06-30 20:50:29 @xq haha :D
2020-06-30 20:50:43 makeworld Because of network effect, and bc there aren't widespread clients for streaming
2020-06-30 20:51:36 lukee wont most clients just time out waiting for the server to close the connection?
2020-06-30 20:51:53 lukee which is what the spec says
2020-06-30 20:51:56 acdw I would think so lukee
2020-06-30 20:52:07 @xq kristall will kill the connection after 100 MB or 5 seconds timeout
2020-06-30 20:52:15 acdw That's what kristall does, I'm pretty sure bollux does that -- those are the two most important ;)
2020-06-30 20:52:57 lukee now then, there are other clients at the table here! :)
2020-06-30 20:53:27 acdw hahaha
2020-06-30 20:53:54 acdw but now that I'm thinking about it, it would be hard for a client to know if the connection was just crappy (and thus timedout) or a stream
2020-06-30 20:54:10 acdw unless there was like, a status code (yes, the ML thread is coming back to me now)
2020-06-30 20:54:32 acdw And now I understand xq's 100 MB *or* 5 second timeout
2020-06-30 20:54:33 acdw very clever
2020-06-30 20:55:06 @xq i have a hard limit of 100 MB per file atm
2020-06-30 20:55:22 lukee that is a very long text/gemini file
2020-06-30 20:55:50 @xq acdw: wanna try something cool?
2020-06-30 20:55:54 kensanata Well, you can download albums via Gemini...
2020-06-30 20:56:00 acdw uhh yes always
2020-06-30 20:56:25 acdw oh I should totes write a >100MB text/gemini file
2020-06-30 20:56:30 lukee haha
2020-06-30 20:56:31 acdw like... a novel?
2020-06-30 20:56:32 kensanata And I wrote that Atom feed generator and send solderpunk an email. :)
2020-06-30 20:57:22 kensanata I wonder how large the largest text file is on Gutenberg. For text, 100MB is like... the Mahabarata for sure!
2020-06-30 20:57:40 acdw what is that, 100 Million bytes? So 100 Million characters?
2020-06-30 20:57:58 lukee just another day on IRC
2020-06-30 20:58:26 acdw The average word in English is 4.7 characters, so... 21276595 words
2020-06-30 20:58:38 acdw it'd take a while lukee to get that many words on IRC
2020-06-30 20:59:09 lukee enough monkeys and typewriters should do the trick
2020-06-30 20:59:23 kensanata "At about 1.8 million words in total, the Mahābhārata is roughly ten times the length of the Iliad and the Odyssey combined, or about four times the length of the Rāmāyaṇa."
2020-06-30 20:59:49 kensanata So, 5 characters × 2 million words = 10MB...
2020-06-30 20:59:57 kensanata Peanuts!!
2020-06-30 21:00:07 acdw well dang... you'd have to copy-paste the Mahabharata like, 10 times to get to 100 MB
2020-06-30 21:00:28 acdw now if you use the original characters (which are probably big unicode characters), you double the size "for free"
2020-06-30 21:00:30 kensanata Oh well, time for bedover here...
2020-06-30 21:00:35 kensanata Haha!
2020-06-30 21:00:35 wgreenhouse xq: fwiw this limit would prevent downloading gemini://konpeito.media 's mixtapes correctly
2020-06-30 21:00:37 kensanata Or times four.
2020-06-30 21:00:59 kensanata Perhaps there's a limit per MIME-type!
2020-06-30 21:01:01 wgreenhouse those .zips are around 140-145 MB
2020-06-30 21:01:17 lukee ouch
2020-06-30 21:01:32 lukee there goes my dial up connection
2020-06-30 21:01:36 acdw From what I can tell devanagari is U+0900 - U+097F
2020-06-30 21:01:40 acdw so ... 2 bytes each?
2020-06-30 21:02:27 @xq wgreenhouse: i want to make that configurable
2020-06-30 21:02:32 @xq acdw: gemini://random-projects.net/torture/index.gemini
2020-06-30 21:02:35 @xq try the last link
2020-06-30 21:02:44 kensanata acdw: Now if only I would get off my ass and read it...
2020-06-30 21:02:50 kensanata But now, bed time!
2020-06-30 21:02:52 kensanata has quit (The TLS connection was non-properly terminated.)
2020-06-30 21:03:00 acdw kensanata: lemme know how it goes!
2020-06-30 21:03:12 ⚡ acdw afk
2020-06-30 21:04:07 @xq wgreenhouse: i just took the value from the FAQ saying that you shouldn't serve large files (probably >= 100MB) :D
2020-06-30 21:07:39 lukee they are very large for a protocol that has no concept of Content-Length
2020-06-30 21:08:00 lukee they could be 1Gb and no one would know
2020-06-30 21:08:46 lukee The next mix should be called Mahābhāratax10.mp3
2020-06-30 21:09:20 wgreenhouse xq: sure :D just wanted to offer a real-world counterexample
2020-06-30 21:12:33 @xq yeah, i'm aware of that :)
2020-06-30 21:12:42 @xq will be implement as soon as i implement streaming data
2020-06-30 21:13:20 wgreenhouse lukee: it was a little scary getting them because the client I use (elpher) holds the whole thing in memory until the connection closes :D
2020-06-30 21:13:31 wgreenhouse suspenseful
2020-06-30 21:16:29 lukee Bet you are glad it wasnt 1Gb
2020-06-30 21:16:35 wgreenhouse sure am. :D
2020-06-30 21:18:33 lukee It would be a cruel trick for a server to drip feed it slowly through the pipe
2020-06-30 21:19:22 lukee like FTP as far as I remember.
2020-06-30 21:19:35 lukee Download this file, it will take some time, no idea how long though...
2020-06-30 21:22:12 wgreenhouse hah
2020-06-30 21:22:21 wgreenhouse yeah, that is FTP-ish.
2020-06-30 21:28:50 makeworld Hmm yeah I should probably put a size limit on Amfora
2020-06-30 21:29:02 makeworld I'm thinking 50 MB, or probably lower
2020-06-30 21:29:32 makeworld *MiB
2020-06-30 21:29:34 lukee that was going to be my next suggestion of a flag for gemget too
2020-06-30 21:30:22 makeworld Oh yeah that could be good. Could you make an issue so I remember?
2020-06-30 21:30:27 lukee and server timeout
2020-06-30 21:30:32 makeworld I will be releasing soon
2020-06-30 21:30:47 lukee well, not necessarily timeout, but abandon after n seconds
2020-06-30 21:30:54 makeworld Yeah, the timeout is 15s right now. But that's for a connection, not reading
2020-06-30 21:31:07 lukee yes, slightly different
2020-06-30 21:31:24 lukee I'll create an issue
2020-06-30 21:32:27 makeworld Great!
2020-06-30 21:37:22 ⚡ lukee just created two new issues so they can be handled independently if necessary
2020-06-30 21:46:08 makeworld Great, thanks!
2020-06-30 21:53:20 omse has quit (Client exited)
2020-06-30 21:56:26 makeworld lukee: Okay, gemget v1.3.0 released
2020-06-30 21:56:40 lukee has quit (Ping timeout: 120 seconds)
2020-06-30 21:57:01 makeworld Your two issues will probably be in v1.4.0, no timeline on that though
2020-06-30 22:04:43 acdw xq: IDK waht happen but I don't think the MP4 link is working
2020-06-30 22:05:01 acdw oh nope, nvm -- I didn't click it right apparently :P
2020-06-30 22:05:31 acdw wel it's not playing but i'm loving the interfac!
2020-06-30 22:10:18 epoch_ would it make more sense to just have a markup option for metadata?
2020-06-30 22:10:42 epoch_ (than to try to use the first header as a title)
2020-06-30 22:18:35 acdw I don't think that'd be very popular -- it'd be waay too easy to abuse
2020-06-30 22:50:00 epoch_ yeah, probably not.
2020-06-30 22:53:07 acdw I don't think we're going to get much ore out of those header lines
2020-06-30 22:53:10 acdw which i'm okay with
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2020-07-01 03:48:01 epoch_ a standard format for search results (maybe rss or atom?) mixed with then open search descriptor format would be nice. do many engines output search results as rss or atom?
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2020-07-01 08:19:07 @julienxx hi!
2020-07-01 08:25:02 @xq hey julienxx
2020-07-01 08:27:25 @xq people are awesome
2020-07-01 08:27:25 @xq https://github.com/void-linux/void-packages/pull/23336
2020-07-01 08:35:10 lukee I discovered a gopher to gemini proxy today.
2020-07-01 08:35:19 lukee And there is a gemini to gopher proxy too
2020-07-01 08:35:27 lukee so I present, INCEPTION
2020-07-01 08:35:31 lukee gopher://ake.crabdance.com:77/1gemini://80h.dev/agena/ake.crabdance.com:77/1
2020-07-01 08:35:38 @tomasino ;)
2020-07-01 08:35:57 lukee a gopher view of a gemini proxy of a gopher view of gemini homepage
2020-07-01 08:36:33 lukee I havent found a way to make it go deeper... yet
2020-07-01 08:46:30 kensanata https://alexschroeder.ch/soweli-lukin?url=gopher%3A%2F%2Fake.crabdance.com%3A77%2F1gemini%3A%2F%2Fgemini.circumlunar.space%2Fcapcom%2F
2020-07-01 08:47:15 kensanata I'm sure by this time all the devils are cackling.
2020-07-01 08:47:50 kensanata xq: Nice!
2020-07-01 08:51:45 ⚡ kensanata makes sure only day pages from my homepage end up on CAPCOM...
2020-07-01 08:53:02 lukee cool.
2020-07-01 08:53:08 lukee I'm sure we can go deeper...
2020-07-01 08:53:48 lukee are there any gemini or gopher reverse web proxies?
2020-07-01 08:55:25 @xq yeah
2020-07-01 09:03:15 @xq tomasino: i found this the other day: https://i.redd.it/eva0v0zuyks41.png
2020-07-01 09:20:07 CommunistWolf is there any work on something like the tor browser bundle for gemini? it must be approx 1 million times easier ^^
2020-07-01 09:21:24 @tomasino Solderpunk has a proxy as a service thing
2020-07-01 09:21:33 @tomasino agena? Something like that
2020-07-01 09:21:48 @tomasino I think I might be running it on tilde.black on 1966
2020-07-01 09:22:02 @tomasino Not 100% sure. Haven't checked in a while
2020-07-01 09:22:42 @xq CommunistWolf: do you mean bundle tor + a gemini browser?
2020-07-01 09:23:48 CommunistWolf something like that, yeah. so people don't need to run tor separately as a client
2020-07-01 09:24:15 @xq ah
2020-07-01 09:24:17 CommunistWolf there's orbot for android as well, same kind of idea. just a shiny "hide muh metadata" button
2020-07-01 09:24:56 @tomasino Krystall ís about to get fancier
2020-07-01 09:25:01 @tomasino ;)
2020-07-01 09:25:49 @xq tomasino: yeah, i'm thinking to implement proxy support
2020-07-01 09:25:57 @xq which would help people build something like torbrowser for kristall
2020-07-01 09:27:01 @xq btw, i want to bundle a set of "starting points" with kristall
2020-07-01 09:27:13 @xq so, have a standard set of favourites
2020-07-01 09:28:47 @xq i would at least include GUS, solderpunks main site, the kristall website
2020-07-01 09:28:51 @xq any other ideas?
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2020-07-01 09:46:40 dkibi capcom
2020-07-01 09:47:00 dkibi I think capcom is a nice starting point for random browsing
2020-07-01 09:48:36 @xq oh yeah, good idea
2020-07-01 09:51:37 @xq i'm thinking about also including Astrobotany
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2020-07-01 10:49:05 kensanata xq: Getting them involved in a community project.
2020-07-01 10:50:26 Sario528 xq: Definitely include Astrobotany
2020-07-01 10:51:36 kensanata With four Gemini services running on my server I'm starting to feel like I need a dispatcher at the front, delegating to the various end points so that people can just use port 1965.
2020-07-01 10:52:29 kensanata It would do just that: listen on *:1965 and dispatch to various other ports based on hostname.
2020-07-01 10:53:35 kensanata What would you call this, a dispatcher? a front-end? it's not a load balancer. Is it a reverse proxy?
2020-07-01 10:53:52 kensanata Also, reverse proxy is a lousy name.
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2020-07-01 12:25:27 @xq hello netsplit!
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2020-07-01 12:41:12 ~tiwesdaeg always fun
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2020-07-01 13:26:48 kensanata Now that I have written gemini-dispatch I'm no longer sure I want it. https://alexschroeder.ch/cgit/gemini-dispatch/about/
2020-07-01 13:31:28 ~tiwesdaeg gemserv is doing something different for multiple domains
2020-07-01 13:32:19 @xq gemserv is providing "real" virtual hosts
2020-07-01 13:32:21 @xq it's really nea
2020-07-01 13:32:22 @xq *neat
2020-07-01 13:32:32 @xq kensanata: systemd is easy!
2020-07-01 13:33:43 @xq https://bpa.st/VNKA
2020-07-01 13:33:49 @xq if your service is non-forking
2020-07-01 13:33:50 kensanata xq: A few days ago you told me you could help me out with my socket problem; now you're saying you can help me out with the systemd setup?
2020-07-01 13:33:59 kensanata xq: Well, right now it is...
2020-07-01 13:34:06 @xq :D
2020-07-01 13:34:10 @xq oh yeah, socket thing
2020-07-01 13:35:35 @xq https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd.service.html
2020-07-01 13:37:55 @xq kensanata: what does --setsid do exactly? fork the process?
2020-07-01 13:38:21 kensanata I've been checking the man page for my server framework. I have a choice of "personalities" including fork (which is what I use), INET, MultiType (!?), Multiplex (!?!), PreForkSimple (that's what I know from my Apache setup), PreFork (I guess that's the "complicated" version), Single, and HTTP. Wow.
2020-07-01 13:38:34 kensanata xq: Yes, exactly. --setsid is for backgrounding.
2020-07-01 13:38:37 @xq okay
2020-07-01 13:38:45 @xq so, we don't go background, it's easier that way
2020-07-01 13:39:09 kensanata OK, cool.
2020-07-01 13:39:13 @xq you should be able to just use the template i've sent above to provide a systemd service
2020-07-01 13:39:21 @xq explanations for each field can be found on the systemd docs linked above
2020-07-01 13:39:26 @xq i find them quite easy to understand
2020-07-01 13:39:27 kensanata I'll put that in the notes. Thanks!
2020-07-01 13:39:41 @xq did you resolve the socket problem?
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2020-07-01 13:42:15 kensanata xq: Not really. I just rewrote my test so that I can still verify how it works, but I think I need to learn more about sockets.
2020-07-01 13:42:52 @xq can you give me a piece of context again?
2020-07-01 13:42:56 @xq i totally forgot about this
2020-07-01 13:43:29 kensanata Sure. Let me find the code.
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2020-07-01 13:45:21 kensanata I have a function that I call from tests to act as a very simple gemini client. https://alexschroeder.ch/cgit/gemini-wiki/tree/t/test.pl#n101 It sends the request URL, \r\n, and optionally some more text (because I want to test my titan implementation as well, i.e. text upload). Now, the server might respond with an error after it gets the URL.
2020-07-01 13:45:47 kensanata But my client is dumb, it continues sending the text. And then I have a deadlock, or the server hangs up, I don't know. And the error message is lost.
2020-07-01 13:46:18 kensanata In the code I linked, I'm assuming I should write something between lines 114 and 115. But what?
2020-07-01 13:48:29 @xq it shouldn't matter if you send some data
2020-07-01 13:49:18 @xq oh and a thing: just bind your socket to port 0
2020-07-01 13:49:22 @xq and query the bound port
2020-07-01 13:49:32 @xq this will yield a free local port :)
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2020-07-01 13:55:38 natpen :taps microphone: ...is this thing on?
2020-07-01 13:55:41 @xq hello!
2020-07-01 13:56:01 kensanata xq: Hm, now that you mention it, that does sounds familiar. I think I had that running for a bit. I just don't remember why I decided to use the more complicated version.
2020-07-01 13:56:15 kensanata natpen: Hello hello!
2020-07-01 13:56:16 natpen Oh my goodness, I've successfully connected to irc! Hi everyone :)
2020-07-01 13:58:49 kensanata I had the impression that your nick has been online for a while, now.
2020-07-01 13:59:05 kensanata So do you have a backlog of a hundred pages, now?
2020-07-01 13:59:42 kensanata Also, I'm Alex Schroeder – we talked about GUS and robots.txt by email. :)
2020-07-01 14:01:56 natpen I've been messing with irc configuration this morning... I thought I was connected too, but my messages didn't go out and I didn't see anyone else's messages. Sorry for the confusion, clearly I'm not good at IRC. Maybe #gemini can inspire me to change that though!
2020-07-01 14:02:46 natpen And hi! Yes, I recognized your nick from reading some of your blog, where you described some of the backstory for "kensanata". I really enjoy your posts!
2020-07-01 14:03:31 kensanata Thanks! :)
2020-07-01 14:04:12 kensanata As for IRC, I can only help if you're an Emacs person. Outside of Emacs... :throws hands into the air:
2020-07-01 14:04:15 @xq getting an IRC config wrong is also an achievement :D
2020-07-01 14:04:19 @xq What client are you using?
2020-07-01 14:05:21 natpen rcirc. I tried irssi, but more confusion ensued, so I reverted back to the (relative) comfort of elisp...
2020-07-01 14:05:41 makeworld Hey, you're here!
2020-07-01 14:05:53 makeworld 👋
2020-07-01 14:06:19 natpen I know! So exciting. Never has Gemini felt more synchronous :)
2020-07-01 14:07:36 makeworld Haha
2020-07-01 14:08:16 kensanata natpen: I also use rcirc, so if you have questions, feel free to ask...
2020-07-01 14:12:48 natpen kensanata: Thank you!
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2020-07-01 14:16:29 kensanata xq: When I have my gemini-wiki.service file, how do I install it? sudo systemctl enable gemini-wiki ./gemini-wiki.service or something like that?
2020-07-01 14:16:51 @xq ah
2020-07-01 14:16:59 @xq just copy/link the file to /etc/systemd/system/
2020-07-01 14:17:08 @xq this is where all manual service files reside
2020-07-01 14:24:28 kensanata Yay, got it working. Thanks, xq!
2020-07-01 14:24:44 @xq you're welcome!
2020-07-01 14:25:00 @xq the service initialization stuff of systemd is quite awesome imho
2020-07-01 14:25:26 ⚡ tiwesdaeg fumbles around with /etc/rc.conf
2020-07-01 14:26:09 ~tiwesdaeg worst thing about systemd? they swapped the service and command positions
2020-07-01 14:26:09 @xq but: i haven't used other service managers yet
2020-07-01 14:26:16 ⚡ xq is too young for this kind of linux exerience
2020-07-01 14:26:22 kensanata xq: I've been using Monit for all this stuff. The web interface basically sold me on it. But now I'm no longer sure. :)
2020-07-01 14:26:30 ~tiwesdaeg service nginx restart / systemctl restart nginx
2020-07-01 14:26:50 kensanata tiwesdaeg: Hah.
2020-07-01 14:26:58 kensanata tiwesdaeg: That also confuss me everytime.
2020-07-01 14:26:59 @xq i like the "restart foo" more :D
2020-07-01 14:27:07 ~tiwesdaeg drives me nuts, since I used bsd and linux
2020-07-01 14:27:07 @xq but that's just the thing you're used to
2020-07-01 14:27:34 paper nginx -t && nginx -s reload is better?
2020-07-01 14:27:42 kensanata But then there's also monit reload (not implemented) but monit restart goes, apachectl reload (not implemented) but apachectl graceful (works) stuff like that has been driving me crazy for years/
2020-07-01 14:27:52 @xq paper: reload isn't restart! :D
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2020-07-01 14:28:06 paper no, it isn't but it's enough for most cases :)
2020-07-01 14:28:40 kensanata hypnotoad alexschroeder.pl starts it, hypnotoad -s alexschroeder.pl stops it, gaaah. Where's the emoji where you rip out all your hair?
2020-07-01 14:28:43 ~tiwesdaeg I think one is hierarchical and the other is more english word order
2020-07-01 14:28:45 kensanata 👴
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2020-07-01 14:29:27 ~tiwesdaeg service(controls many things) nginx(the specific service) restart(the command for that service)
2020-07-01 14:30:07 ~tiwesdaeg if I were going to verbally tell you to do it, I'd say 'restart nginx'
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2020-07-01 14:34:50 kensanata I wrote up my thoughts regarding the dispatching and I think I'll use redirects instead... gemini://alexschroeder.ch:1968/page/2020-07-01%20Dispatching
2020-07-01 14:39:46 @xq kensanata: quick response:
2020-07-01 14:40:00 @xq TLS SNI (Server Name Indication) is mandatory for Gemini now exactly because of that
2020-07-01 14:40:09 @xq so you can serve multiple domains with the same server
2020-07-01 14:40:44 kensanata xq: is there a write-up somewhere? I dropped out of the SNI discussion on the mailing list...
2020-07-01 14:41:00 @xq errr
2020-07-01 14:41:02 @xq good question :D
2020-07-01 14:41:13 @xq it resulted in a spec change
2020-07-01 14:42:35 kensanata I can see "Use of the Server Name Indication (SNI) extension to TLS is also mandatory, to facilitate name-based virtual hosting." in the spec, indeed.
2020-07-01 14:43:11 kensanata The sections 4.1 to 4.3 don't really tell me what I need to do, though.
2020-07-01 14:43:32 @xq i think it's up to you and your TLS library :D
2020-07-01 14:44:21 kensanata 🤔
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2020-07-01 15:06:18 kensanata Is the bombadillo author on this channel?
2020-07-01 15:07:31 kensanata I downloaded the binaries and wonder I'm supposed to install properly, on this sort-of-Debian. I guess the files go somewhere into ~/.local -- but I guess I only know where to put the binary itself. No idea about the .desktop, .png, and man page.
2020-07-01 15:08:09 ⚡ kensanata finds some desktop files in .local/share/applications so there's that
2020-07-01 15:08:48 kensanata Oh, and .local/share/man/man1 is also there... Lucky me.
2020-07-01 15:13:18 natpen <kensanata> I think if you look in the repo's Makefile, you could probably see where it installs everything when you install from source, then follow suit with the precompiled assets.
2020-07-01 15:15:15 @julienxx tiwesdaeg: it seems a mail from tilde.pink arrived in the ML
2020-07-01 15:15:21 kensanata natpen: yeah, makes sense.
2020-07-01 15:15:37 ~tiwesdaeg uh oh
2020-07-01 15:16:05 ~tiwesdaeg too many inboxes
2020-07-01 15:16:29 @xq Rogue Advertisment!
2020-07-01 15:17:42 ~tiwesdaeg haha
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2020-07-01 16:38:07 kensanata Why is working on Gemini Wiki giving me such joy.
2020-07-01 16:38:28 kensanata Must be something about the simplicity and the opportunity to start over?
2020-07-01 16:38:51 @xq kensanata: proabably because of the same reasons i like to hack on Kristall?
2020-07-01 16:39:55 kensanata xq: Maybe!
2020-07-01 16:41:30 kensanata xq: I'd love to see a Kristall deb to install...
2020-07-01 16:41:45 @xq if you give me the tools how to make one :D
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2020-07-01 17:49:55 epoch_ .
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2020-07-01 21:37:40 thewetcrab Hello, just wanted to drop by and say a massive thank you to everyone in Gopher, you have all inspired me to take my linux / design / and general computing skills further.
2020-07-01 21:37:49 thewetcrab *in gemini
2020-07-01 21:38:06 thewetcrab I know http:// isn't the protocol of choice here but this evening I am looking at python -m SimpleHTTPServer and python3 -m http.server
2020-07-01 21:38:17 thewetcrab I don't think I would be investigating this tool if it wasn't for my involvment in gopher and gemini, so thank you for inspiring me to look at things on a deeper level :)
2020-07-01 21:41:33 @xq hey thewetcrab
2020-07-01 21:41:58 thewetcrab Hi xq
2020-07-01 21:42:11 thewetcrab How are you? Have you been working on anything interesting lately?
2020-07-01 21:43:37 @xq https://kristall.random-projects.net/
2020-07-01 21:43:54 @xq Kristall hsa now it's own website, downloads and even packages for Void Linux and Arch Linux
2020-07-01 21:44:05 @xq shoutout to companion_cube and ifreund here :)
2020-07-01 21:44:38 thewetcrab Small Internet - I am noting the capitalization of Small Internet :)
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2020-07-01 21:45:33 companion_cube \o/
2020-07-01 21:46:14 thewetcrab I am very much liking the look of Kristall
2020-07-01 21:46:25 @xq thanks :)
2020-07-01 21:46:27 @xq oh hey acdw
2020-07-01 21:46:33 thewetcrab Please allow me to compliment you on the asci artwork at the of the webpage too!
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2020-07-01 21:46:41 thewetcrab How did you make that ascii text?
2020-07-01 21:47:10 @xq http://patorjk.com/software/taag/
2020-07-01 21:47:15 @xq there's this wonderful tool
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2020-07-01 21:47:25 ⚡ xq doesn't take all the credits here
2020-07-01 21:47:34 @xq but Taag is just freaking awesome
2020-07-01 21:47:44 thewetcrab Since learning about Gemini and Gopher I have been researching the Old Internet and especially the area of ascii and ansi art.
2020-07-01 21:48:26 acdw ascii art is the best
2020-07-01 21:48:31 @xq ansi art ftw
2020-07-01 21:48:35 @xq Petscii master race though
2020-07-01 21:48:38 acdw hey xq!
2020-07-01 21:48:47 acdw what is the diff b/w ascii and ansi? encoding?
2020-07-01 21:48:53 acdw if that's the case, then i'd say UTF art
2020-07-01 21:48:55 thewetcrab I think I love ansi over ascii, ACiD 4 the win! ;)
2020-07-01 21:48:56 acdw UT-FART
2020-07-01 21:49:09 @xq ascii is 7 bit
2020-07-01 21:49:26 @xq ansi is a extension to 8 bit with the upper 128 characters used with an ansi code page
2020-07-01 21:49:30 thewetcrab acw I think ansi allows you to use an extended charecter set, those extra charecters allow the art work to be more detailed.
2020-07-01 21:49:32 @xq usually cp437 (standard ibm/dos)
2020-07-01 21:49:33 acdw oh nice
2020-07-01 21:49:38 thewetcrab which is what I thin xq is saying.
2020-07-01 21:49:41 @xq yep
2020-07-01 21:50:13 thewetcrab ha ha glad I have sparked off a conversation about ansi art :D
2020-07-01 21:50:34 thewetcrab Text and Text Charecters are becoming a great passion of mine!
2020-07-01 21:50:56 acdw they're the marriage of my two loves -- text and also art
2020-07-01 21:51:03 thewetcrab Can you remember what 'font' is used at the top of the Kristall webpage?
2020-07-01 21:51:51 thewetcrab Yes me too I think acdw. I remember ansi from my commodore 64 days, I loved it then, and I am loving rediscovering it again :)
2020-07-01 21:52:56 @xq > Menlo, Monaco, "Courier New", monospace
2020-07-01 21:52:59 @xq it's one of those :D
2020-07-01 21:53:14 thewetcrab thank you xq
2020-07-01 21:54:03 acdw :)
2020-07-01 21:54:51 ⚡ xq has to leave for today
2020-07-01 21:54:55 thewetcrab Ansi shadow is nice too
2020-07-01 21:54:58 @xq 23:54 already
2020-07-01 21:55:03 thewetcrab Ah sorry to see you go xq :/
2020-07-01 21:55:07 @xq see ya tomorrow *waves*
2020-07-01 21:55:09 thewetcrab Great to chat with you :)
2020-07-01 21:55:11 thewetcrab Bye for now
2020-07-01 21:59:50 acdw o/
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2020-07-01 22:13:45 makeworld acdw: There's also ANSI control codes
2020-07-01 22:14:21 epoch_ ansi art also usually ... yeah. makeworld said it first.
2020-07-01 22:14:23 makeworld Which are used for colors in the terminal
2020-07-01 22:14:38 makeworld Usually that's the ANSI people mean when they say it
2020-07-01 22:14:57 epoch_ ansi terminal color codes + code-page 437 block-drawing characters
2020-07-01 22:17:18 acdw oh yes, I know about the codes! And box-drawing/block-drawing ... so nice
2020-07-01 22:17:25 acdw I didn't realize all that was ansi
2020-07-01 22:18:43 epoch_ printf "\x1b[32mgreen\x1b[0m"
2020-07-01 22:19:45 acdw or printf '\e[32m%s\e[0m' green ;)
2020-07-01 22:19:45 thewetcrab Never heard it refered to as box-drawing / block-drawing before. but I understand why it would be called that acdw :)
2020-07-01 22:19:54 acdw :D
2020-07-01 22:20:04 thewetcrab Does any one know of modern tools to creat ansi art?
2020-07-01 22:20:26 thewetcrab I heard back in the day they would draw each line individually, which must have been some fantastic task!
2020-07-01 22:20:38 makeworld Yeah wow
2020-07-01 22:20:39 epoch_ I only know of a classic tool. ACiD draw or whatever it was.
2020-07-01 22:20:48 makeworld But no I don't know any current tools
2020-07-01 22:20:50 epoch_ I usually draw my ascii art in nano
2020-07-01 22:20:51 epoch_ or vim
2020-07-01 22:21:06 acdw I use vim !
2020-07-01 22:21:11 acdw I even wrote a thing
2020-07-01 22:21:24 epoch_ https://16colo.rs/
2020-07-01 22:21:29 acdw gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/users/acdw/2020-06-04-ascii-art-vim.gmi
2020-07-01 22:21:36 epoch_ also, if you want multiplayer ascii/ansi art...
2020-07-01 22:21:41 makeworld I think I'm pissing off dev of the terminal UI toolkit Amfora uses lol, I'm filing lots of issues
2020-07-01 22:21:51 epoch_ ssh://torus@ascii.town/
2020-07-01 22:22:00 epoch_ ^ made by june who's in #meta probably
2020-07-01 22:22:16 acdw epoch_ I'm disappointed in my own skills now...
2020-07-01 22:22:19 acdw those are so beautiful
2020-07-01 22:22:48 epoch_ _.-._
2020-07-01 22:22:48 epoch_ |_| | |-.
2020-07-01 22:22:48 epoch_ / '-| | |\
2020-07-01 22:22:48 epoch_ ( ___)'-' |
2020-07-01 22:22:48 epoch_ \ \ /
2020-07-01 22:22:48 epoch_ \ /
2020-07-01 22:22:48 epoch_ | |
2020-07-01 22:22:50 epoch_ no worries
2020-07-01 22:23:51 makeworld Woah ascii.town is crazy
2020-07-01 22:23:57 epoch_ don't get better by giving up
2020-07-01 22:24:28 epoch_ didja see the web-explorer https://ascii.town/explore.html#x=1&y=0 ?
2020-07-01 22:25:00 acdw I have to remember ascii.town when I get home
2020-07-01 22:25:02 acdw and can ssh
2020-07-01 22:26:02 epoch_ There's also IRC art
2020-07-01 22:26:07 epoch_ https://supernets.org/docs/ascii-ansi-art-flooding.html
2020-07-01 22:26:23 epoch_ which uses the IRC color codes
2020-07-01 22:26:54 epoch_ and unicode for the newer stuff
2020-07-01 22:27:22 acdw oh cool
2020-07-01 22:27:23 epoch_ btw, you can use iconv to convert between cp437 and utf-8
2020-07-01 22:27:35 epoch_ if you want to view some cp437 art in your terminal
2020-07-01 22:28:28 epoch_ printf "\xdb\n" | iconv -f CP437
2020-07-01 22:28:28 epoch_ █
2020-07-01 22:28:48 epoch_ (somehow I have memorized that \xdb is a block in cp437)
2020-07-01 22:30:26 epoch_ https://thebackupbox.net/~epoch/art/long_cock2
2020-07-01 22:31:10 acdw \x de block
2020-07-01 22:31:24 thewetcrab Did someone here say they write ascii art?
2020-07-01 22:31:29 epoch_ o/
2020-07-01 22:32:44 thewetcrab how did you learn epoch_?
2020-07-01 22:33:03 thewetcrab The hand thing you posted it so cool!
2020-07-01 22:33:15 acdw thewetcrab: I do a little bit. self-taught and not great, lol
2020-07-01 22:33:22 acdw I agree the hand thing is rad tho
2020-07-01 22:34:17 epoch_ I don't know if I remember how I learned.
2020-07-01 22:35:17 epoch_ it probably helped knowing how to draw before attempting ascii art
2020-07-01 22:36:15 epoch_ usually there's a lot of trial and error and stuff not looking right
2020-07-01 22:36:48 epoch_ and implying lines through the space between columns and rows
2020-07-01 22:38:13 epoch_ I made the fist after having looked for one for a while. seemed like something anarchist hackers would have made already.
2020-07-01 22:38:27 thewetcrab How did you learn acdw?
2020-07-01 22:39:29 thewetcrab Ah so sorry I have to go now, i will try to find you both here tomorrow so we can chat more about this
2020-07-01 22:39:39 epoch_ :) kk
2020-07-01 22:39:49 thewetcrab Hope you all have a fantastic time have ever you are doing over the next few hours :)
2020-07-01 22:44:46 acdw thewetcrab: if you're still here I kind of taught myself
2020-07-01 22:44:50 acdw or I'll tell you about ti later
2020-07-01 22:51:05 epoch_ is jgs still online?
2020-07-01 22:51:22 epoch_ oh dang, she has a wikipedia page
2020-07-01 22:51:43 epoch_ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_Stark
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2020-07-01 22:53:08 acdw oh that's amazing -- I was wondering what jgs stood for
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2020-07-01 22:59:21 epoch_ https://web.archive.org/web/20121004034534/http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/7373/index.html#home
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2020-07-02 01:25:20 styan xq: Remember that `install -D' is non-portable, NetBSD and FreeBSD use `-D' to specify the destination-directory. :-)
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2020-07-02 05:49:56 drskrzyk halp, I've discovered elpher and I might never leave emacs now
2020-07-02 06:07:53 wgreenhouse drskrzyk: elpher is terrific
2020-07-02 06:08:15 wgreenhouse drskrzyk: but, like much elisp, also sufficiently unfinished to warrant you to stay in emacs to hack on it. :D
2020-07-02 06:08:23 wgreenhouse e.g. it needs multi buffer support like eww
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2020-07-02 06:18:01 drskrzyk wgreenhouse: yeah, I found that out the hard way :)
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2020-07-02 07:26:04 @xq styan: thanks for the hint!
2020-07-02 07:26:15 @xq so back to mkdir -p + install
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2020-07-02 07:58:43 styan I did looked at the histories, because it is fun, and corutils added `-D` in 1998, NetBSD added theirs in 2002, FreeBSD ported NetBSD's additions in 2013, and OpenBSD added a `-D' in the style of corutils' (for some reason?) in 2015. Also, Illumos' does not have a `-D' option.
2020-07-02 08:28:03 styan Oh, DragonFly BSD's has a no-op `-D destdir' option for NetBSD compatibility from 2011. I always forget about DragonflyBSD.
2020-07-02 08:28:23 kensanata I think we need to decide whether Gemini is about ♊ or 💎.
2020-07-02 08:28:57 kensanata Every time I join the channel I look at the topic and it feels so wrong. Is this a secret plot to make me more flexible?
2020-07-02 08:29:57 styan I went on a tanget after mentioning `-D' incompatibility in reference to Kristall's Makefile.
2020-07-02 08:34:51 kensanata Heh.
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2020-07-02 10:00:12 solderpunk Ahoy!
2020-07-02 10:00:34 @xq hey solderpunk
2020-07-02 10:01:46 solderpunk How is everybody in Geminispace these days?
2020-07-02 10:04:16 @xq i'm fine. a bit rainy, but i feel great nontheless
2020-07-02 10:05:13 solderpunk It's rained a little the past few days here, too, not much though.
2020-07-02 10:09:00 solderpunk Not sure if folks saw my post on CAPCOM, but in case not, if anybody here is running Molly Brown for their Geminiserver, you should be aware of substantial recent changes! gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/~solderpunk/cornedbeef/extensive-molly-brown-updates.gmi
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2020-07-02 10:13:08 lukee hi solderpunk
2020-07-02 10:13:29 lukee I'll check it out, as I'm running Molly Brown
2020-07-02 10:14:24 solderpunk Hi lukee!
2020-07-02 10:14:49 solderpunk Please do, and let me know if anything doesn't appear to work as it should.
2020-07-02 10:14:59 solderpunk I'm keen to have people kick the tyres on some of the new features.
2020-07-02 10:15:09 lukee Actually I was just going to drop you an email anyway
2020-07-02 10:15:21 solderpunk Oh!
2020-07-02 10:15:33 lukee I've written a CGI module that automatically generates an Atom feed from a GMI gemlog index
2020-07-02 10:16:05 lukee So I was going to ask you to add my feed to Capcom
2020-07-02 10:16:05 lukee gemini://gemini.marmaladefoo.com/cgi-bin/atom-feed.cgi?lukee
2020-07-02 10:16:31 solderpunk Oh, sure, I'll do it now.
2020-07-02 10:16:56 lukee There's a write up here gemini://gemini.marmaladefoo.com/blog/2-Jul-2020_GMI_based_feed_generator.gmi
2020-07-02 10:17:09 lukee I'm just finishing the final touches
2020-07-02 10:17:22 solderpunk If you're using CGI with Molly, be aware you might have to make a minor tweak to your config file, as the CGIPaths are no longer regular expressions but something more like a shell glob expression.
2020-07-02 10:17:33 lukee The source is available so anyone can use it if they have a CGI compatible server
2020-07-02 10:17:45 solderpunk Nice work!
2020-07-02 10:18:13 lukee sorry what does "shell glob expression" mean - I'm not a linux native
2020-07-02 10:18:31 lukee thanks!
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2020-07-02 10:19:16 solderpunk Oh, just that it supports basic wildcards like *
2020-07-02 10:19:49 solderpunk It's less powerful than full-blown regexps, but much more user friendly for what I imagine the most typical use cases would be.
2020-07-02 10:20:03 lukee oh ok fine.
2020-07-02 10:20:05 lukee thanks
2020-07-02 10:21:09 natpen` Hi again, everyone!
2020-07-02 10:21:20 lukee hello natpen
2020-07-02 10:21:24 solderpunk Oh, hi Natalie!
2020-07-02 10:21:40 solderpunk First time I've seen you here. :)
2020-07-02 10:22:20 natpen` Gemini inspired me to finally figure out how to connect to IRC. I got it working for the first time yesterday.
2020-07-02 10:22:40 lukee you're the person behind GUS?
2020-07-02 10:22:49 natpen` Yes, that's me!
2020-07-02 10:22:58 solderpunk Haha, I am not a very big IRCer myself, #gemini has also dragged me out of the woodworks on occasion.
2020-07-02 10:22:58 drskrzyk nice
2020-07-02 10:23:00 lukee Its great work - we all use it every day
2020-07-02 10:23:31 lukee I've been delving backwards from gemini to gopher and you really notice what a difference it makes to have a proper search engine
2020-07-02 10:24:03 lukee (my next release of GemiNaut has gopher support as well as gemini)
2020-07-02 10:24:20 drskrzyk solderpunk: hey nice to see you. timely. just got back on fedi/tilde and saw a bunch of people throwing around gemini uri... I fell down the rabbit hole yesterday evening
2020-07-02 10:24:49 drskrzyk I've been plonking away at it for hours - anyhow, seriously cool.
2020-07-02 10:24:51 solderpunk Hope you're enjoying yourself here!
2020-07-02 10:25:32 natpen` <lukee> Oh thanks! That's really nice to hear!! I've really enjoyed making it too.
2020-07-02 10:27:19 lukee natpen: I dont know if anyone asked you, but one idea we batted around on this IRC channel was whether there could be a 'backlinks' query in GUS
2020-07-02 10:27:48 lukee it would assist in the question who has linked to me or responded to some page?
2020-07-02 10:28:33 lukee perhaps you have this graph information already within GUS
2020-07-02 10:31:05 lukee I've no idea how hard that would be to present it as a service though!
2020-07-02 10:31:08 solderpunk I can totally see the use of that kind of thing, and don't at all mean to discourage that line of thought - but making such direct use of the link graph always scares me a little bit, because it runs the risk of incentivising link spamming.
2020-07-02 10:32:23 lukee well there are all kinds of SEO type risks in gemini we've not had to deal with yet
2020-07-02 10:32:47 solderpunk Yeah, it's easy not to worry about those kinds of things so much when everything is small and friendly.
2020-07-02 10:32:54 solderpunk But it may not be so one day.
2020-07-02 10:33:17 solderpunk I'm really not sure how best to prepare for it.
2020-07-02 10:33:24 natpen` Oh, I've been thinking about that as well. I've implemented it as a feature and have been playing around with it locally. I have the same concerns about it, but I think what I implemented might work well. I'll describe it...
2020-07-02 10:33:31 lukee similarly with automatic content pollution
2020-07-02 10:33:43 solderpunk Ugh, yes, that would suck.
2020-07-02 10:34:10 solderpunk I really hope the design of the protocol will go some way to removing the commercial incentives for that kind of thing, but who knows.
2020-07-02 10:34:32 ⚡ lukee crosses fingers and looks to the heavens
2020-07-02 10:34:44 solderpunk Haha, indeed.
2020-07-02 10:34:56 natpen` I put a link to a page's backlinks page on each search result, but only in verbose mode, and if you click it, it takes you to a dedicated page that only shows a given page's backlinks. So it doesn't affect ranking in any way, but I think could still be interesting to authors?
2020-07-02 10:35:54 natpen` Any ideas on how that could, or would, backfire?
2020-07-02 10:36:24 solderpunk How are the backlinking pages ordered?
2020-07-02 10:36:33 natpen` Randomized
2020-07-02 10:37:57 lukee I think it would be nice to experiment with it
2020-07-02 10:38:01 solderpunk Fair enough.
2020-07-02 10:38:01 lukee as a user
2020-07-02 10:38:39 solderpunk It's a really interesting (and difficult!) question, how to rank things in a search result to best trade-off between utility to the use and disincentivising spam and other nasties.
2020-07-02 10:39:20 lukee Is the URL of the backlinks page contstructable from the source url e.g. gemini://gus/backlinksendpoint/sourcedomain/sourcepath or similar?
2020-07-02 10:39:40 solderpunk And, actually, thinking about this now makes me realise how totally naive some ideas I had been pondering about content discovery were.
2020-07-02 10:40:04 lukee most pages are only going to have one or at most a couple of back links
2020-07-02 10:40:41 lukee it might be nice to filter these to show only backlinks from other domains to turn down the UI volume of links
2020-07-02 10:41:00 lukee I dont think you generally need to see internal links in that list
2020-07-02 10:41:26 solderpunk Oh, good point, internal links are far less interesting.
2020-07-02 10:41:47 natpen` Yep - it's just gemini://gus.guru/backlinks?<URL> (note that that doesn't actually work yet, to be clear. none of this is live)
2020-07-02 10:42:59 lukee perhaps then it does not need to be automatically shown in the listings, just offered as a service via gemini input
2020-07-02 10:43:28 natpen` Ha... filtering same-domain backlinks was my first thought as well, which took me down a train of thought that maybe the right user interface is the same as the regular search result pages. I.e. with a query syntax, paging, etc.
2020-07-02 10:43:49 lukee then users who are interested can create a parameterised url from their page, or people can query the graph from a specific point rather than have it everywher
2020-07-02 10:44:03 lukee yes
2020-07-02 10:45:20 lukee it might be interesting if each result on the list of backlinks was itself a list of links pointing to that page...
2020-07-02 10:45:32 natpen` Definitely agreed on not "promoting" it - I really like how ranking results by content is working out, so I don't want to change that. And I think to see the link to the backlinks page, you'd have to enter GUS' verbose mode. I made a bit more accessible, so it's a toggle, but this would still NOT be information you'd get in a generic search results page.
2020-07-02 10:45:52 lukee ok fine
2020-07-02 10:47:25 natpen` Oh wow. I hadn't considered backlinks pages linking to other backlinks pages. Now my brain hurts. I need to think about that one more :)
2020-07-02 10:47:55 ⚡ lukee sits upside down and browses geminispace backwards
2020-07-02 10:48:22 lukee Can the web do that? :)
2020-07-02 10:48:25 solderpunk I have to say, I'm so, so happy that the first Gemini search engine happened to be made by somebody who is not just technically capable and dedicated to it, but who is also really aware of and sensitive to all these thorny issues surrounding search and their possible consequences for the space. I couldn't have asked for more!
2020-07-02 10:52:13 solderpunk I'm curious, how often does GUS fetch the pages it has indexed?
2020-07-02 10:52:38 natpen` Oh thanks! It's really my pleasure. I just want to see Gemini stay as wonderful as I think it currently is.
2020-07-02 10:53:37 natpen` It varies... it used to be daily, when it would take <2 hours to crawl Geminispace. Now it takes about 48 hours, so I've been investing more energy into doing incremental crawls of specific content.
2020-07-02 10:55:03 natpen` My latest thought is to try and figure out the most "impactful" pages to recrawl and just invalidate and recrawl them often - e.g., I think simply recrawling Capcom and Spacewalk on a more frequent basis would make a noticable improvement.
2020-07-02 10:55:15 solderpunk Do you think there is value in Gemini having something like sitemap.xml, where site admins can declare the typical frequency of change for certain URLs? Or would you rather that GUS were perhaps smart enough to try to figure that out by itself?
2020-07-02 11:00:22 natpen` That could be interesting. I feel like the amount of complexity needed for GUS to do it purely algorithmically and consistently well would be higher than what I probably feel like introducing to the project. One other idea I recently came across was that site creators could create a zip of their site, then the crawler could just download that with one request, then unzip and process locally. It doesn't get at the "i
2020-07-02 11:00:22 natpen` ncrementality" but incrementality is hard, and with this approach crawl time would scale linearly with the number of hosts, instead of the number of pages. So that I think could also work.
2020-07-02 11:01:10 solderpunk Ah, I have definitely thought about that idea before, of having a well-known endpoint where one can fetch an archive of an entire capsule.
2020-07-02 11:01:22 solderpunk And probably a second well-known endpoint where one can fetch the filesize of said archive. :)
2020-07-02 11:01:39 lukee Who needs Content-Lenght? :)
2020-07-02 11:02:33 solderpunk Well, the ability to fetch an entire site in one transaction, and then browse it locally, is most valuable to people with either very slow connections, or even more so people with intermittent connections.
2020-07-02 11:02:58 solderpunk And they might appreciate it.
2020-07-02 11:02:58 lukee The lawyers will never stand for downloading my whole site
2020-07-02 11:03:13 lukee I'll have to get the CEO to agree too
2020-07-02 11:03:21 solderpunk Actually, I'm curious...
2020-07-02 11:03:28 natpen` Oh, that's a really interesting additional use case for the idea. I hadn't thought about that!
2020-07-02 11:04:02 ⚡ solderpunk runs `du -chs /var/gemini` on gemini.circumlunar.space...
2020-07-02 11:04:21 lukee Some sites might be a mixture of static and dynamic content - how should it work for them?
2020-07-02 11:04:24 solderpunk 500 MB?!?!
2020-07-02 11:05:17 lukee I think sitemap.xml is perhaps more flexible
2020-07-02 11:05:30 solderpunk Ah, the majority of it is that "calculator" thing.
2020-07-02 11:05:40 solderpunk Yeah, for highly dynamic sites it certainly wouldn't work.
2020-07-02 11:06:05 lukee you can replace your calculator with a link to gemini://gemini.marmaladefoo.com/cgi-bin/calc.cgi?0 if you like :)
2020-07-02 11:06:24 solderpunk But for gemlogs, I think it's highly viable.
2020-07-02 11:06:39 solderpunk My gopher phlog, which is over three years of writing, is 1.7 MB.
2020-07-02 11:06:54 solderpunk And that's uncompressed!
2020-07-02 11:07:05 solderpunk Offering content like that in a single archive seems super sensible to me.
2020-07-02 11:07:19 ⚡ lukee rummages around in drawer for a floppy disk
2020-07-02 11:07:34 solderpunk Haha, yes, it would definitely fit after a gzip.
2020-07-02 11:08:03 dkibi does gus has any understanding of atom feeds? given how popular they are they could at least give a bit of an hint what needs earler rescrabing
2020-07-02 11:10:09 natpen` It does not understand Atom currently. I've thought about dealing with that, but I felt like the easier solution would be just to invalidate and recrawl the dedicated feed pages who do understand Atom feeds (i.e., Capcom and Spacewalk).
2020-07-02 11:11:53 solderpunk At least for as long as Geminispace stays small enough that "firehoses" like Capcom and Spacewalk are valuable. :)
2020-07-02 11:15:14 natpen` true :) I hope it remains useful for a very long time. Refreshing Capcom in the mornings, and seeing what people have posted, is one of my favorite Gemini activities!
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2020-07-02 11:24:05 solderpunk Mine too! :)
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2020-07-02 12:37:10 ~tiwesdaeg hey solderpunk
2020-07-02 12:38:47 @xq solderpunk: your sweet dream of self-hosted servers just crashed, at least with my ISP
2020-07-02 12:38:56 @xq my "external" IP is now natted
2020-07-02 12:39:38 ⚡ xq cries
2020-07-02 12:39:51 ~tiwesdaeg :(
2020-07-02 12:40:03 wgreenhouse xq: o o f. can't even forward a port from their router/modem controls or whatever?
2020-07-02 12:40:10 @xq yep
2020-07-02 12:40:16 @xq i have a dyndns entry
2020-07-02 12:40:19 wgreenhouse feckin
2020-07-02 12:40:25 @xq doesn't work anymore
2020-07-02 12:40:26 wgreenhouse arg
2020-07-02 12:40:37 @xq yep
2020-07-02 12:40:55 ~tiwesdaeg I've lucked out with my isp
2020-07-02 12:41:32 ~tiwesdaeg the ip address doesn't even change, even if the connection is lost for a long period
2020-07-02 12:43:20 wgreenhouse xq: there's always the as-yet-unexplored space of gemini-over-.onion :P
2020-07-02 12:44:40 ~tiwesdaeg it wasn't too hard to setup on gopher
2020-07-02 12:45:19 wgreenhouse yeah I think it should be fine
2020-07-02 12:45:35 wgreenhouse meant to put something last week, maybe this weekend
2020-07-02 12:47:25 @xq wgreenhouse: i have a different solution
2020-07-02 12:47:29 @xq which i need to add to kristall first :D
2020-07-02 12:47:38 @xq but: gemini has first-class trivial proxying
2020-07-02 12:47:56 wgreenhouse o.O
2020-07-02 12:48:04 @xq and why not include that on my VPS which has IPv6
2020-07-02 12:48:12 @xq so i just contact my server with any gemini request
2020-07-02 12:48:16 @xq and it will redirect
2020-07-02 12:48:17 @xq :D
2020-07-02 12:48:18 wgreenhouse hah, nice.
2020-07-02 12:48:31 @xq but i need to add client support for that
2020-07-02 12:48:45 @xq so you can set up "always contact this host"
2020-07-02 12:48:50 wgreenhouse when your ISP NATed you, they left you with a "real" globally addressable ipv6 at least?
2020-07-02 12:49:02 @xq nope
2020-07-02 12:49:05 @xq no IPv6
2020-07-02 12:49:08 @xq at all
2020-07-02 12:49:15 @xq not ingoing, not outgoing
2020-07-02 12:52:56 dkibi xq: ah I remember some german isps doing that it's hell
2020-07-02 12:53:03 @xq yes.
2020-07-02 12:53:06 @xq Fuck Vodafone
2020-07-02 12:53:22 dkibi your home is now a phone
2020-07-02 12:54:15 wgreenhouse that's terrifying
2020-07-02 12:54:30 kensanata Ugh.
2020-07-02 12:54:31 wgreenhouse (re: <dkibi> your home is now a phone)
2020-07-02 12:54:49 @xq <dkibi> your home is now a phone
2020-07-02 12:54:49 @xq yes
2020-07-02 12:59:59 wgreenhouse ironically, my tentative plan is to put my gemini stuff on a disused phone (v1 pixel running termux)
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2020-07-02 14:02:59 solderpunk Sorry to hear about it, xq!
2020-07-02 14:03:11 @xq yeah, i'm pretty pissed ATM
2020-07-02 14:03:30 solderpunk I am still hoping to experiment with Gemini on Yggdrasil one day.
2020-07-02 14:04:22 @xq Yggdrasil?
2020-07-02 14:05:12 solderpunk https://yggdrasil-network.github.io/about.html
2020-07-02 14:05:45 solderpunk It's sort of a decentralised, P2P IPv6 network.
2020-07-02 14:06:01 solderpunk Using a deprecated chunk of the IPv6 address space which is not routable on the public internet.
2020-07-02 14:06:13 solderpunk You get an IPv6 address that is derived from an ed25519 public key.
2020-07-02 14:06:33 solderpunk Which is kind of a neat way to sidestep the need for PKI.
2020-07-02 14:07:09 @xq i wonder how performant this is
2020-07-02 14:07:55 solderpunk No idea, I still haven't tried it myself, just read about it.
2020-07-02 14:08:25 solderpunk But probably enough for text/gemini, I'd expect.
2020-07-02 14:08:42 @xq hehe, yeah
2020-07-02 14:08:53 @xq but tor/i2p has hellish latencies
2020-07-02 14:09:42 solderpunk I don't know anything about i2p, but yggrdasil should be better than Tor at least.
2020-07-02 14:09:59 solderpunk It's not trying to provide anonymity, so stuff is routed by the most direct known route.
2020-07-02 14:10:36 @xq yeah, that's a nice property
2020-07-02 14:10:37 solderpunk The whole goal of the project, as I understand it, is to experiment with fancy new ideas for routing.
2020-07-02 14:10:59 solderpunk Which is all kind of over my head at this point.
2020-07-02 14:11:49 solderpunk But it's nice that you can use it to host IPv6 stuff from home even if you can't do that the normal way.
2020-07-02 14:13:34 @xq i wonder if that will work for me
2020-07-02 14:13:48 @xq they somehow need to reach my device at the end
2020-07-02 14:14:14 solderpunk Your home device can connect, via IPv4, to a public Yggdrasil node.
2020-07-02 14:14:24 solderpunk Or several of them.
2020-07-02 14:14:55 solderpunk And I think then you should be able to receive connections.
2020-07-02 14:18:21 @xq hmmm
2020-07-02 14:18:23 @xq interesting
2020-07-02 14:18:29 solderpunk But from your ISP's perspective, all you're doing is connecting to a public IPv4 host, so it should "just work".
2020-07-02 14:18:36 dkibi https://github.com/breadbee/breadbee this seems to a nice device to host a minimal gemini server (it's essentially an attempt on creating an alternative to those esp32 board that can run a regular os and which hopefully might get cheeply cloned in china (think bluepill))
2020-07-02 14:19:31 solderpunk Nice!
2020-07-02 14:19:33 @xq i love the picture
2020-07-02 14:19:36 @xq :D
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2020-07-02 14:24:48 kensanata Oops, got disconnected as I tried to post. Hm.
2020-07-02 14:24:55 kensanata What I was trying to post: Gah, made a bunch of changes to elpher in order to enable browsing multiple buffers; then I als had to make a bunch of changes to my gemini-write extension that allows me to use it to edit gemini-wiki... Now I feel lost in stack of changes and commits and branches and projects, yikes.
2020-07-02 14:25:37 acdw i know that feeeling!
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2020-07-02 15:18:37 makeworld xq: That's like my nightmare, sorry man
2020-07-02 15:19:00 makeworld gemini://makeworld.gq is out of my basement, so that would go away
2020-07-02 15:19:34 makeworld solderpunk: Really cool to see Yggdrasil brought up here, I've played around with it and used it as a part of Toronto Mesh
2020-07-02 15:19:39 makeworld Also CJDNS, but I prefer Ygg
2020-07-02 15:20:01 @xq makeworld: yeah, i hate it too
2020-07-02 15:20:16 @xq i have an alias-setup for the pi in my basement
2020-07-02 15:20:36 @xq i could access my stuff from everywhere if i needed
2020-07-02 15:20:41 acdw my ISP won't let me host anythign :(
2020-07-02 15:20:50 @xq "turn on the pc? no problem, network connected power sockets"
2020-07-02 15:21:01 makeworld solderpunk: The first Yggdrasil Gemini server already exists btw: https://github.com/michael-lazar/jetforce/issues/26
2020-07-02 15:21:50 solderpunk Oh, neat!
2020-07-02 15:23:14 makeworld Yeah I was happily surprised to see that
2020-07-02 15:23:44 makeworld Most clients should work out of the box with Ygg, which is great. Thank you OSI layers!
2020-07-02 15:25:03 @xq neat
2020-07-02 15:25:34 makeworld I haven't tested Amfora with it, I probably should
2020-07-02 15:25:42 makeworld But I'd surprised if there was an issue
2020-07-02 15:26:40 solderpunk Me too, it should be entirely invisible to the client.
2020-07-02 15:26:47 solderpunk Assuming it supports IPv6, of course.
2020-07-02 15:26:50 @xq hmm
2020-07-02 15:26:58 @xq has anyone of you experience with linux and raw packet sending?
2020-07-02 15:27:08 makeworld Not really no
2020-07-02 15:28:14 @xq i searched google for like a five hours, didn't find anything
2020-07-02 15:28:21 @xq now working with libpcap, i found AF_PACKET and found this:
2020-07-02 15:28:22 @xq https://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man7/packet.7.html
2020-07-02 15:28:24 @xq \o/
2020-07-02 15:31:40 makeworld solderpunk: I love the molly config and .molly files idea btw
2020-07-02 15:32:03 makeworld The day before I was trying to bring it up with the Jetforce dev
2020-07-02 15:32:10 makeworld https://github.com/michael-lazar/jetforce/issues/34
2020-07-02 15:33:48 solderpunk Oh, coincidental timing!
2020-07-02 15:34:02 solderpunk I have been meaning to add all this stuff for a long time, I'm so glad to finally have it out there.
2020-07-02 15:39:58 solderpunk Hmm, only after reading Michael's comments there do I realise you can't configure Molly Brown to redirect to other domains. Maybe I'm okay with that.
2020-07-02 15:40:17 kensanata I thought about starting pages with #REDIRECT [[new page]] or something for redirects (which is how my web wiki does). This is so you can't redirect from a wiki page to an external page. But in the end I don't know whether that's a good limitation.
2020-07-02 15:40:31 kensanata Heh
2020-07-02 15:41:56 kensanata The web wiki also only redirects by one step. If the target redirects again, that isn't forwarded to the client, the idea being that you're on a wiki so you need to be able to go back to those pages and edit them somehow.
2020-07-02 15:42:58 kensanata And I finally wrote an overview over all the stuff I've been doing. Yay me! 😀 https://alexschroeder.ch/wiki/2020-07-02_An_overview_over_my_Gemini_projects or gemini://alexschroeder.ch/2020-07-02_An_overview_over_my_Gemini_projects
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2020-07-02 15:45:25 kensanata Heh, port1965.eu is a cool domain name.
2020-07-02 15:46:33 solderpunk Wow, you have been busy!
2020-07-02 15:47:13 kensanata Yeah, my summer break started on Monday.
2020-07-02 15:47:16 kensanata :D
2020-07-02 15:47:31 solderpunk Aah, one week after mine. :)
2020-07-02 15:47:52 solderpunk Which is why so much work on Molly Brown happened.
2020-07-02 15:48:21 makeworld That's the reason I've been able to do all my Gemini stuff too :)
2020-07-02 15:50:08 solderpunk Today I'm finally writing up some beginner-friendly introductory stuff to text/gemini syntax.
2020-07-02 15:50:21 solderpunk And also started finally sketching out a gentle introduction to TLS certificates.
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2020-07-02 15:53:00 dkibi summer break? what's that xD
2020-07-02 15:54:04 kensanata dkibi: My wife also shakes her head: "you're still at the laptop!?"
2020-07-02 15:54:38 makeworld solderpunk: Nice! Did you see my thoughts I sent a while ago, on that TOFU report
2020-07-02 15:55:22 solderpunk I think so? All I remember now, though, is that you picked up on keying certificates against the port as well.
2020-07-02 15:56:39 makeworld There was one other thing, using the hash of the SubjectPublicKeyInfo section of the cert, not just the hash of the whole thing
2020-07-02 15:56:56 makeworld It's not really an obvious thing, so it was helpful to read
2020-07-02 15:57:10 makeworld Idk if this applies to your TLS intro though
2020-07-02 15:57:23 solderpunk Oh, right. I'm still not sure I'm sold on that.
2020-07-02 15:57:40 solderpunk It will, the title is actually "TLS, TOFU and all that jazz", so TOFU stuff belongs in there :)
2020-07-02 15:57:47 solderpunk But I'll cover TLS stuff first.
2020-07-02 15:58:02 makeworld It seemed to make sense to me, bc it keeps the same key and everything, it just avoids raising an error if the signature method changes or something
2020-07-02 15:58:04 makeworld Oh great!
2020-07-02 15:59:05 makeworld Using the SPKI made sense to me, and I trust the report bc it seemed professional lol. It seemed like something would reduce false positives for TOFU cert errors
2020-07-02 15:59:25 makeworld Although I think in most cases it doesn't really apply, since people change the whole cert
2020-07-02 16:00:20 solderpunk Yeah, I still don't think that keeping the same key for longer than the lifespan of a cert makes much sense, at least in the context of a single self-signed cert.
2020-07-02 16:00:30 makeworld It'd also be cool to see recommendations on TOFU UX/UI in that document, like how easy continuing past a TOFU issue should be, and what kind of error text should be displayed. Bc it's potentially a MITM attack, but most likely not
2020-07-02 16:00:45 makeworld Yeah, I don't think many people are doing that
2020-07-02 16:01:10 makeworld But I thought why not hash the smaller part of the cert, at worst it won't change much
2020-07-02 16:01:46 makeworld That's another thing, are you recommending clients keep track of the expiry date too then?
2020-07-02 16:01:54 makeworld Sorry I know I'm bringing up a lot at once lol
2020-07-02 16:02:09 @xq if you get a solution, please notice me so i can implement that in Kristall :)
2020-07-02 16:03:52 solderpunk What the heck...
2020-07-02 16:04:04 solderpunk I just published the Gemtext tutorial stuff at gemini.circumlunar.space
2020-07-02 16:04:13 solderpunk And was checking how it looked in AV-98.
2020-07-02 16:04:20 solderpunk And I'm seeing TOFU warnings...
2020-07-02 16:05:03 solderpunk Oh, right, duh, I'm still using Let's Encrypt here.
2020-07-02 16:05:21 solderpunk "A different certificate has previously been seen 999 times.
2020-07-02 16:05:21 solderpunk That certificate is still valid for: 29 days, 14:23:08.649315"
2020-07-02 16:05:33 solderpunk The just less than 30 days of validity thing should have been the big hint.
2020-07-02 16:05:47 solderpunk Spooked myself for a minute there :p
2020-07-02 16:06:22 solderpunk Funky timing, too, as we were just talking about this.
2020-07-02 16:08:37 solderpunk Let it be known that the new cert with SHA256 fingerprint c78730ad7b488ae5af16e635d5478bee3a109ff32f51a16e85e580640d6b6b2a is legit!
2020-07-02 16:09:31 solderpunk Feedback on gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/docs/gemtext.gmi and gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/docs/cheatsheet.gmi very welcome.
2020-07-02 16:11:31 makeworld Oh that warning you quoted is a good idea, counting how many times it's been seen and how long it was still valid for
2020-07-02 16:11:34 makeworld I'm stealing that
2020-07-02 16:11:49 makeworld Anyway I gtg now, but I will check these out after, thanks!
2020-07-02 16:12:53 solderpunk Steal away! Talk to you later.
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2020-07-02 18:01:37 makeworld solderpunk: Both documents look great! Don't have any suggestions really
2020-07-02 18:23:00 makeworld You should put them on HTTPS too
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2020-07-02 19:00:14 makeworld Alright, Amfora v1.2.0 released!
2020-07-02 19:00:15 makeworld https://github.com/makeworld-the-better-one/amfora/releases/tag/v1.2.0
2020-07-02 19:00:45 makeworld No major new features here, but many bug fixes and some smaller features like paging and opening links in a new tab
2020-07-02 19:08:40 makeworld Uploading binaries now
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2020-07-02 20:44:01 thewetcrab Just a random thought that I had that I wanted to share before I forgot it .......
2020-07-02 20:45:07 thewetcrab What kind of hardware can gemini be browsed on?? If Gemini is mostly text and meant to be lightweight, can we start looking at reducing the minimum hardware that can browse gemini,
2020-07-02 20:45:15 thewetcrab does what I am saying make sense to anyone?
2020-07-02 20:46:15 rb100 thewetcrab: TLS is what limits how "minimum" you can go
2020-07-02 20:46:56 rb100 crypto requires non-negligible computing power
2020-07-02 20:48:12 thewetcrab This isn't my area of expertise but would love to discuss it. What does TLS prevent? And how minimum is it possible to go with TLS?
2020-07-02 20:49:11 rb100 a 68030 CPU is barely usable, for example, for these tasks
2020-07-02 20:51:15 epoch_ < solderpunk> https://yggdrasil-network.github.io/about.html
2020-07-02 20:51:34 thewetcrab What about something like a Pentium II?
2020-07-02 20:52:00 epoch_ I've been on yggdrasil for a couple years now maybe.
2020-07-02 20:52:06 rb100 Pentium II has plenty of processing power, sure
2020-07-02 20:52:12 epoch_ so, there's already a gemini server on there
2020-07-02 20:53:04 thewetcrab Can you give me a brief summary of what Yggdrasil is / does?
2020-07-02 20:54:15 epoch_ IPv6 overlay network. onion routed I think.
2020-07-02 20:54:53 epoch_ like cjdns, but instead of only getting one IP you also get a range you can share with other computers on your LAN
2020-07-02 20:55:12 epoch_ so you don't have to setup the program on /everything/ you want on the network
2020-07-02 20:55:49 thewetcrab ah right, that kind of thins is way outside of my knowledge or understanding,
2020-07-02 20:56:52 thewetcrab rb100 so if the Pentium II has plenty of power what could we go down to, that is above a 68030 CPU?
2020-07-02 21:00:27 rb100 not sure, if i had to guestimate, you could get by on 68020, 386, etc.
2020-07-02 21:00:48 rb100 real problem is a TLS implementation for the chip, but i'd say a true 32-bit processor would be preferable
2020-07-02 21:01:17 rb100 or TLS implementation for the platform is probably more appopriate
2020-07-02 21:03:29 rb100 like you can get openssl 1.0.2 for MiNT on Atari computers all the way down to a 68000, and gemini browsing would "work"
2020-07-02 21:03:59 rb100 but while a 386 could also probably do it, good luck getting an OS for it supported by openssl
2020-07-02 21:08:07 thewetcrab this is slightly outside my scope of knolege, certain processors and OSes don't work with TLS?
2020-07-02 21:09:23 rb100 no, i mean someone has to either write a TLS lib from scratch or port an existing one to the OS/hardware combo of your choice
2020-07-02 21:10:00 styan There is a talk about running modern NetBSD on a VAX that mentions TLS handshakes timeing out, so if you get old enough hardware that would be something to worry about.
2020-07-02 21:10:24 thewetcrab hmm so it must be a modern OS with a modern processor?
2020-07-02 21:11:03 rb100 styan: that might be my talk from 2019
2020-07-02 21:11:15 thewetcrab I was thinking something along the lines of a micro controller with no OS, but could boot directly to and only to some kind of terminal / browser
2020-07-02 21:11:30 thewetcrab really low powered,
2020-07-02 21:11:39 thewetcrab perhaps even running on Lora network?
2020-07-02 21:11:40 rb100 thewetcrab: "must" is a strong word. it depends how much work you want to put in.
2020-07-02 21:11:45 styan rb100: Really?! I loved it!
2020-07-02 21:12:10 thewetcrab Perhaps not possible?
2020-07-02 21:12:18 rb100 styan: at bsdcan? yeah, i brought my vaxstation with me
2020-07-02 21:12:40 thewetcrab But that is why I come here to seek knowledge and to learn more about what is possible with this modern technology.
2020-07-02 21:13:06 rb100 thewetcrab: anything is possible. like i said, conceptually, with very little work, an Atari ST could browse gemini, albeit slowly
2020-07-02 21:15:16 thewetcrab Well, I would't be able to make it. But I want to inspire others to create a single purpose device that is capable of browsing Gemini with no distractions.
2020-07-02 21:17:11 thewetcrab I understand people here are fans of the 'Small Internet' and I think as we transitioned away from single use devices like the iPod Classic to multi use devices like the iPhone something special was lost.
2020-07-02 21:17:11 thewetcrab I hope the gemini community feel the same way, and I hope I can inspire some to create (or co-create with me) a single use gemini hardware browser...... I don't know where I would begin with something like that on my own.
2020-07-02 21:17:36 styan rb100: Sorry for the weird reaction, but I literally had the video open to check before I sent a message. :-)
2020-07-02 21:18:46 rb100 haha
2020-07-02 21:24:05 thewetcrab Nice speaking I'm going to head off now :)
2020-07-02 21:24:35 thewetcrab o/
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2020-07-03 10:34:54 kensanata CAPCOM why u no like my feed!? 😭
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2020-07-03 15:08:08 ⚡ mujrim hi
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2020-07-03 15:17:22 natpen` Hi :)
2020-07-03 15:18:15 makeworld Hello!
2020-07-03 15:18:17 acdw hey!
2020-07-03 15:18:22 acdw sup sup
2020-07-03 15:18:24 makeworld Seems like that user left though
2020-07-03 15:18:31 acdw oh lol
2020-07-03 15:18:34 acdw well hey everyone
2020-07-03 15:20:01 natpen` Backlinks are now live on GUS if anyone wants to try them out!
2020-07-03 15:22:04 acdw cool! What does that mean exactly?
2020-07-03 15:23:24 natpen` It means you can now see which pages to link to other pages. So like, if you searched for "gus", then entered verbose mode, the first result is "gus.guru", and there's now a button to see all the pages in Geminispace that link to it.
2020-07-03 15:23:56 makeworld Woah k lemme try
2020-07-03 15:24:47 natpen` omg you already broke it makeworld
2020-07-03 15:25:22 makeworld Haha what do you mean
2020-07-03 15:25:35 acdw oh that's awesome
2020-07-03 15:25:44 makeworld gemini://gus.guru/backlinks?gemini%3A//makeworld.gq/
2020-07-03 15:26:02 makeworld That's empty, even thought it send 1 backlink, is that what you meant by breaking?
2020-07-03 15:26:09 natpen` yeah... that one is messed up
2020-07-03 15:26:40 acdw this is incredible!
2020-07-03 15:26:47 makeworld Haha
2020-07-03 15:26:57 makeworld But overall it's great!
2020-07-03 15:27:51 makeworld You should really add GUS News to CAPCOM
2020-07-03 15:28:08 natpen` Oh, I never thought of that! That's a great idea
2020-07-03 15:28:19 makeworld It could just be an atom feed with one "post", and you just manually update the creation time everytime you make an update
2020-07-03 15:28:25 makeworld Since there aren't separate files
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2020-07-03 15:37:20 natpen` okay, I think I fixed that bug!
2020-07-03 15:41:02 natpen` I'll probably announce to the list later today, but please feel free to let me know if you notice anything misbehaving! This is getting released as part of a huge refactor (GUS got an entirely new database behind the scenes!), so I'm ever so slightly more than usual concerned about regressions :)
2020-07-03 16:02:22 makeworld Oh cool
2020-07-03 16:02:31 makeworld I'll lyk yeah
2020-07-03 16:02:38 makeworld What changed with the database?
2020-07-03 16:02:48 makeworld Is it still Whoosh?
2020-07-03 16:09:44 natpen` still whoosh yes, but now there is begrudgingly also sqlite
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2020-07-03 16:18:04 makeworld Oh interesting
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2020-07-03 17:47:16 epoch_ < makeworld> solderpunk: The first Yggdrasil Gemini server already exists btw: https://github.com/michael-lazar/jetforce/issues/26
2020-07-03 17:47:54 makeworld Yes?
2020-07-03 17:48:23 epoch_ I don't have a date on my own server being "up" yet actaully
2020-07-03 17:48:38 epoch_ and even if mine did get up before that one, it wasn't "public"?
2020-07-03 17:49:01 makeworld You mean you were running a Ygg server before that guy?
2020-07-03 17:50:00 epoch_ I've been running ygg since a couple years ago
2020-07-03 17:50:27 epoch_ and now that I think about it... I should probably update it.
2020-07-03 17:51:40 epoch_ I have some files in /var/gemini with a creation date before May 27th
2020-07-03 17:51:48 makeworld Oh cool!
2020-07-03 17:52:06 makeworld 🏅
2020-07-03 17:55:01 makeworld If anyone wants to test their client wrapping abilities, you can check out makeworld.gq/test.gmi
2020-07-03 17:56:43 makeworld Or actually gemini://makeworld.gq/wrapping-test.gmi will stay more static, the other changes all the time bc it's my testing page
2020-07-03 18:01:04 makeworld It tests things like wrapping heading, bullet, and link lines, which not all clients might do
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2020-07-03 19:10:08 ine geminaut consistenly fails wrapping preformatted text
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2020-07-03 20:10:52 lukee hi all
2020-07-03 20:11:04 lukee makeworld: thanks for putting up another test page
2020-07-03 20:12:59 lukee ine: I dont think GemiNaut is failing to wrap preformatted text: preformatted text is exactly that
2020-07-03 20:13:22 lukee The spec says graphical clients should offer a scrolling mechanism in preference to wrapping
2020-07-03 20:13:25 lukee "Graphical clients should use scrolling mechanisms to present preformatted text lines which are longer than the client viewport, in preference to wrapping."
2020-07-03 20:13:58 lukee Otherwise things like ascii art is going to look very strange on smaller window sizes
2020-07-03 20:14:52 lukee So actually my interpretation it is passing the wrap test :)
2020-07-03 20:17:01 ine well, yeah, i guess it technically respects the specification, but not wrapping it makes for a very bad user experience
2020-07-03 20:17:21 ine it doesn't wrap, but it doesn't scroll either. text just goes off-screen
2020-07-03 20:18:57 lukee there is a scroll bar - for the page itself
2020-07-03 20:20:03 lukee Maybe there is a way to add an optional scroll to the preformatted area if it needs one.
2020-07-03 20:21:17 lukee I have toyed with a preformatted wrap option, but then some other pages look weird that expect no wrap
2020-07-03 20:21:49 lukee if you think the spec is wrong, that is another conversation entirely
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2020-07-03 20:35:52 makeworld lukee: You definitely should not be wrapping preformatted blocks
2020-07-03 20:36:14 makeworld But having a scroll bar for each block, and removing the page one would be a good idea imo
2020-07-03 20:36:23 makeworld More obvious how to scroll sideways
2020-07-03 20:36:26 lukee I've just been playing with this
2020-07-03 20:37:46 lukee https://imgur.com/a/rEuSgC6
2020-07-03 20:38:01 lukee is that a better UI for these long ones?
2020-07-03 20:38:41 lukee ine - you can fix it yourself - go into the GMIConverters/themes folder
2020-07-03 20:39:02 ine oh right, it has that themes thing!
2020-07-03 20:39:05 lukee and for the theme you are using, on the pre.inline entry
2020-07-03 20:39:10 lukee add overflow:auto
2020-07-03 20:39:27 ine ill do it later, im having gpu issues. artifacts and such
2020-07-03 20:39:28 lukee actually overflow:auto; (needs semicolon to terminate the entry)
2020-07-03 20:40:51 lukee it is slightly nicer if you also add a little padding to provide space for the scrollbars to appear, e.g. padding-top:1.2em; and padding-bottom:1.2em;
2020-07-03 20:41:00 lukee that is what that screenshot shows.
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2020-07-03 20:41:49 kensanata I keep trying to find new ways to explain how editing on a Gemini Wiki would work. Here's the latest one. gemini://alexschroeder.ch:1968/page/Writing
2020-07-03 20:43:29 lukee Hi Alex - I'm also interested in how we could do simple wiki like applications or other self-editing in gemini
2020-07-03 20:44:34 lukee where is the best overview of how titan works?
2020-07-03 20:45:00 makeworld lukee: Looks great!
2020-07-03 20:45:07 wgreenhouse lukee: https://alexschroeder.ch/cgit/gemini-titan/about/?h=main
2020-07-03 20:45:30 makeworld And also I'm writing an email to the ML right now, I want Titan to be discussed more before clients add it
2020-07-03 20:45:44 lukee yes definitely
2020-07-03 20:45:48 makeworld Otherwise we will end up with lots of varying implementations with no official spec to point to yet
2020-07-03 20:46:12 lukee it is a POC, but I think it could be improved
2020-07-03 20:46:13 makeworld I'm happy that ken/alex has experimented with it, but I'm not even considering it for Amfora until more discussion happens
2020-07-03 20:46:21 kensanata Maybe gemini://communitywiki.org:1966/Titan would be a good start?
2020-07-03 20:46:36 lukee wgreenhouse: thanks for the link
2020-07-03 20:47:17 lukee But how do you edit/contribute there?
2020-07-03 20:47:20 kensanata makeworld: I'm happy to discuss. All I need to know is who'd like to discuss it.
2020-07-03 20:47:36 lukee me for sure
2020-07-03 20:47:41 kensanata Yay! :D
2020-07-03 20:48:01 lukee might be worth putting out a call for client or server authors to see who would want to participate
2020-07-03 20:48:06 kensanata lukee: If you don't know how to do it using Titan (hah!), I think using the web interface of the wiki would be best.
2020-07-03 20:48:34 kensanata That's what I'm trying by posting here. All y'alls are my target audience.
2020-07-03 20:48:43 makeworld kensanata
2020-07-03 20:48:45 makeworld Whoops
2020-07-03 20:48:47 kensanata https://communitywiki.org/wiki/Titan
2020-07-03 20:49:23 lukee I know there are a few here who are interested, but not everyone monitors the channel
2020-07-03 20:49:29 kensanata That's true.
2020-07-03 20:49:37 makeworld kensanata: Could you outline your idea of Titan in a dedicated mailing list post, with links to your documentation etc. Like a request for comments, ask people what they think, and we can build this together. I think lots of people will be interested
2020-07-03 20:50:23 kensanata makeworld: Apparently my mails cause issue for some people on the list due to spam protection or so, that's why I haven't posted anymore.
2020-07-03 20:51:19 kensanata Let me check whether I can use my other mail account...
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2020-07-03 20:51:38 makeworld I'd appreciate if you could, idk
2020-07-03 20:53:04 acdw i'm hoping to hack a bit on bollux this weekend
2020-07-03 20:53:10 acdw how about yall
2020-07-03 20:53:22 makeworld Amfora for sure, maybe gemget?
2020-07-03 20:54:29 makeworld acdw: What are you doing with bollux?
2020-07-03 20:55:17 lukee huh: just managed to make a trivial test edit to the titan page. Wasnt expecting it to be so easy.
2020-07-03 20:55:40 lukee I guess this is how wikis should work when you dont have too many bad actors floating around
2020-07-03 20:55:42 acdw aww yeah
2020-07-03 20:55:57 acdw makeworld: I'm going to finally add certificate validation and hopefully TOFU
2020-07-03 20:56:05 acdw stretch goal: client certs
2020-07-03 20:56:11 acdw but I'm not holding my breath lol
2020-07-03 20:56:17 makeworld Oh nice!
2020-07-03 20:56:29 acdw lukee that's awesome. I want to try that this weekend too
2020-07-03 20:56:44 acdw I have been so busy these past couple weekends that I haven't been able to chill and do gemini stuff
2020-07-03 20:56:59 makeworld I don't remember how much TOFU convo you were around for, but make sure to store ports, expiry, and hash
2020-07-03 20:57:24 makeworld I totally forget about ports with my initial Amfora implementation :P
2020-07-03 20:58:30 makeworld kensanata: It's nice to see your blog on CAPCOM
2020-07-03 21:00:29 acdw oh thanks ! That is really good to know. Just those three? Or more than those three? I was going to do ports, both dates (validbefore/after), hash as filename, fingerprint??
2020-07-03 21:00:31 acdw idk
2020-07-03 21:00:44 makeworld What is hash as filename?
2020-07-03 21:01:13 makeworld I don't think you need to store both dates, just expiry. So that after the cert expires, you will accept any new cert
2020-07-03 21:01:26 acdw the ... subject hash. It's openssl x509 -hash I think.
2020-07-03 21:01:46 acdw I'm guessing you're meaning hash as a SHA-256 or whatever of the certificate
2020-07-03 21:01:53 acdw in x509 lingo, that's a "fingerprint"
2020-07-03 21:01:59 makeworld Hmm, I just hash the SubjectPublicKeyInfo in Amfora, maybe that's what this is? But hashing the entire cert also works
2020-07-03 21:02:17 acdw but also expiry makes sense. b/c if it's before the valid date then it'll be kicked anyway
2020-07-03 21:02:29 acdw I need to write this stuff down
2020-07-03 21:02:44 makeworld I used to hash the entire cert, but just hashing the SPKI area means if they change non-crucial things like signature algo, there aren't any TOFU errors
2020-07-03 21:02:53 makeworld Yeah, before data isn't really necessary
2020-07-03 21:03:42 acdw ooh that's really good to know
2020-07-03 21:03:48 acdw I hope I can do that with x509
2020-07-03 21:03:51 makeworld You definitely don't need two hashes though. Either hash the entire binary cert, or confirm that the "subject hash" actually mean SPKI and use that
2020-07-03 21:03:56 makeworld You should be able to
2020-07-03 21:04:21 makeworld And yeah it was cool to figure out. I doubt it applies to many gemini servers, bc people will usually just change the entire cert, but why not?
2020-07-03 21:05:13 makeworld Also I'm not sure what openssl does, but make sure you're hashing the binary version of the cert. Idk, I guess hashing the text could work too, it just might be less reliably if something changes order? I don't really know
2020-07-03 21:07:20 acdw you are making the best of points rn
2020-07-03 21:09:58 lukee makeworld: all this juicy info about implementing TOFU and certs etc - can you write a short gemini post about it?
2020-07-03 21:10:18 makeworld Ooh haha, I didn't think of that
2020-07-03 21:10:21 makeworld Thanks
2020-07-03 21:10:31 makeworld Ok maybe I will, I'll write that down
2020-07-03 21:10:51 lukee It would be great as a reference for us all to return to
2020-07-03 21:11:55 acdw oh yes
2020-07-03 21:11:58 acdw I'd be behind that
2020-07-03 21:12:15 acdw I also want to write a beginning Gemini post that covers signing up for a pubnix, etc
2020-07-03 21:12:29 acdw of course I'd link to solderpunk's new cheatsheet
2020-07-03 21:12:32 kensanata makeworld: Thanks. :)
2020-07-03 21:13:27 kensanata lukee: Yeah! :D
2020-07-03 21:13:54 kensanata I think I managed to sign up using a really old email address... whoppee!
2020-07-03 21:15:24 lukee great
2020-07-03 21:16:11 lukee I tweaked the scroll/overflow behaviour some more - now only horizontall scrollbars are added when needed (screenshot above added both even though vertical scroll was not necessary)
2020-07-03 21:16:12 lukee https://imgur.com/a/Y9AOUCB
2020-07-03 21:16:46 lukee you can see the third item on that page, isnt wide enough to need a scrollbar yet
2020-07-03 21:17:08 lukee this is definitely going in the next release :)
2020-07-03 21:17:32 ⚡ lukee praises the gods of CSS
2020-07-03 21:17:51 acdw nice!!
2020-07-03 21:17:54 acdw looks awesome
2020-07-03 21:18:05 acdw I think geminaut might be the *prettiest* client
2020-07-03 21:18:14 lukee you're very kind
2020-07-03 21:18:19 lukee but true :)
2020-07-03 21:18:36 acdw hahaha
2020-07-03 21:18:55 acdw I love how you just complimented me and yourself at the same time
2020-07-03 21:19:14 lukee two for the price of one
2020-07-03 21:22:36 makeworld Haha
2020-07-03 21:22:43 makeworld Yeah that looks great
2020-07-03 21:22:55 makeworld kensanata: Fingers crossed it worked! 🤞
2020-07-03 21:24:27 lukee Its also about usability, so thanks to ine who brought it up earlier
2020-07-03 21:24:57 ine OH HEY
2020-07-03 21:25:11 ine this is exactly the behaviour i wanted to have <lukee> https://imgur.com/a/Y9AOUCB
2020-07-03 21:25:14 ine love it
2020-07-03 21:25:46 companion_cube what is this writte in ?!
2020-07-03 21:26:37 lukee c#/WPF for main application
2020-07-03 21:26:56 lukee UI is done in HTML/CSS (those evil languages - boo hiss!)
2020-07-03 21:27:16 lukee conversion of GMI to HTML/CSS done in Rebol
2020-07-03 21:27:34 lukee and some very useful utilities under the hood
2020-07-03 21:27:53 lukee like gemget and a gopher CLI client
2020-07-03 21:28:32 companion_cube the code snippets are rebol?
2020-07-03 21:28:35 lukee The HTML rendering is very fast and lightweight - just uses a Microsoft system library to do it
2020-07-03 21:28:36 lukee yes
2020-07-03 21:28:49 companion_cube so weird :D
2020-07-03 21:28:53 companion_cube first time I meet someone who uses that
2020-07-03 21:28:56 lukee that page is for a seperate application
2020-07-03 21:29:16 lukee yeah it is a bit niche
2020-07-03 21:29:47 lukee But when you can GetStuffDone(TM) you get on with it?
2020-07-03 21:29:54 companion_cube I guess :p
2020-07-03 21:30:00 companion_cube like every language really
2020-07-03 21:30:45 lukee Gemini: where the esoteric meets the retrospective and cryptographic
2020-07-03 21:30:52 acdw haha yes
2020-07-03 21:31:43 lukee All languages are equal, but some are more equal than others :)
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2020-07-03 21:49:50 makeworld Writing my TOFU blog post now btw, thanks for the idea guys
2020-07-03 21:49:54 makeworld Oh acdw left
2020-07-03 21:50:07 lukee great - I look forward to reading it
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2020-07-03 22:18:12 kensanata OK, wrote my mail. The longest mail I wrote in a long time...
2020-07-03 22:18:17 kensanata And now it's time for bed!
2020-07-03 22:19:50 kensanata And it showed up in my Junk folder. This is going to be great.
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2020-07-03 22:27:28 @julienxx I received it
2020-07-03 22:33:34 kensanata Yay! 😅
2020-07-03 22:35:33 ine <lukee> The HTML rendering is very fast and lightweight - just uses a Microsoft system library to do it
2020-07-03 22:35:35 ine aka you pass it to internet explorer
2020-07-03 22:36:54 ine is there any way to contribute to geminaut?
2020-07-03 22:38:02 ine there are some minor things that bother me, like the "right click > view source" showing whatever but the gemini source. i'd like to submit patches, or at least understand better how a gemini client works
2020-07-03 22:39:32 ine also, is this the right place to discuss a specific client? seems like this chan is more about the gemini specification rather than client impls. i dont want to go off topic or derail, idk
2020-07-03 22:41:45 makeworld ine: You can contribute to Geminaut by forking the repo and editing the code, then creating a pull request
2020-07-03 22:42:05 makeworld Also, the chat is fine for any gemini stuff, we talk about clients all the time
2020-07-03 22:43:07 ine nice, didnt realize there was a public repo
2020-07-03 22:43:26 makeworld Open source baybee
2020-07-03 22:43:45 makeworld Geminispace doesn't do it any other way
2020-07-03 22:43:49 ine hell yea
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2020-07-03 22:44:37 lukee hi again
2020-07-03 22:44:56 ine aw man. i didnt realize you were not in the chan while talking lol
2020-07-03 22:45:37 lukee no just joined again, had a look at the gemini log of the chat room, saw there was still some remarks about GemiNaut
2020-07-03 22:46:19 lukee contributions welcomed if you want to get involved
2020-07-03 22:46:25 lukee the repo is here
2020-07-03 22:46:26 lukee https://github.com/LukeEmmet/GemiNaut
2020-07-03 22:46:42 lukee Are you familiar with C#?
2020-07-03 22:47:24 lukee yes there are a few minor things like view->source and the context menu to be improved upon
2020-07-03 22:47:39 lukee the window level view->source works though
2020-07-03 22:48:17 kensanata has quit (The TLS connection was non-properly terminated.)
2020-07-03 22:59:26 ine i dont know any C#. i paid more attention to the code and... i think ill stay away from geminaut for a bit.
2020-07-03 22:59:43 ine while i like it, i strongly dislike how it pings wikimedia and gravatar on every page load.
2020-07-03 22:59:55 makeworld It does??
2020-07-03 23:01:13 ine all pages (on the default theme) load images off wikimedia and gravatar
2020-07-03 23:04:41 lukee yes it gets the placemarker by sending an MD5 to gravatar. I have plans to reimplement that at some stage
2020-07-03 23:05:13 lukee the wikipedia image is a simple round image mask to give a circular border to the placemarker
2020-07-03 23:05:21 lukee that probably could be loaded locally
2020-07-03 23:05:57 lukee Anyway, thats just the Fabric theme, the other themes dont do any such image requests
2020-07-03 23:09:35 lukee If you want to make some contributions, these changes could be accelerated :)
2020-07-03 23:14:58 makeworld Yeah definitely making that wiki image local would be good since it doesn't change
2020-07-03 23:21:07 lukee its already in the repo, I just need to wire it up
2020-07-03 23:21:48 lukee there is a c# library for generating the identicons too. On the list...
2020-07-03 23:46:29 makeworld I think I'm pretty much done my TOFU post, finally
2020-07-03 23:46:39 makeworld It became a lot bigger than I thought
2020-07-03 23:47:26 @xq <makeworld> I think I'm pretty much done my TOFU post, finally
2020-07-03 23:47:28 @xq neat!
2020-07-03 23:47:59 makeworld Could you check it out before I post it?
2020-07-03 23:50:39 @xq sure thing
2020-07-03 23:50:45 @xq either right now or in ~10h
2020-07-03 23:50:47 makeworld gemini://makeworld.gq/test/
2020-07-03 23:50:57 makeworld I'd prefer right now haha
2020-07-03 23:51:41 @xq okay .D
2020-07-03 23:51:48 @xq (1:51 am here)
2020-07-03 23:52:18 makeworld Oh yikes, don't stay up for me lol
2020-07-03 23:52:43 @xq :D
2020-07-03 23:52:51 @xq i'll read it, then go to bed :D
2020-07-03 23:54:39 makeworld Thanks!
2020-07-03 23:56:44 makeworld I've made some formatting changes if you want to reload btw
2020-07-04 00:11:32 makeworld lukee: It's posted!
2020-07-04 00:11:49 makeworld gemini://makeworld.gq/gemlog/2020-07-03-tofu-rec.gmi
2020-07-04 00:37:23 lukee cool
2020-07-04 00:37:29 lukee I'll take a look
2020-07-04 00:38:06 lukee I've been doing some initial forays into generating identicons internally, not using gravatar
2020-07-04 00:38:20 lukee here is makeworld's page, using the new scheme POC
2020-07-04 00:38:21 lukee https://imgur.com/a/y1XiPSQ
2020-07-04 00:39:04 lukee needs some more tweaking but should all be possible
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2020-07-04 00:57:18 lukee makeworld: that looks like a really practical walkthrough of some of the main issues of implementation. Definitely one to bookmark for later!
2020-07-04 00:57:43 lukee I'm turning in for the night. Quite late here... Catch up soon...
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2020-07-04 01:22:29 styan I finally figured out decent text wrapping and justification, soon I may be able to render text/gemini. :-)
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2020-07-04 02:45:55 makeworld styan: Nice! Can you pass the wrapping torture tests?
2020-07-04 02:54:44 styan makeworld: I literally just have softwrapping text :-)
2020-07-04 03:49:03 makeworld Right but that's what those tests are for
2020-07-04 03:49:17 makeworld Anyway I get ya, keep doing what you're doing :)
2020-07-04 03:49:27 makeworld What will this rendering be for in the end?
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2020-07-04 04:11:29 styan makeworld: Gemini, of course :-)
2020-07-04 04:14:53 wgreenhouse makeworld: what is considered the correct result for the long header/title lines?
2020-07-04 04:33:21 styan makeworld: I just need to add styling/scrolling/scrollbar/context-menu/snarfing/pasting/highlighting/plumbing/etc. Also, I wonder if there is any right-to-left text handling in plan9port? screenshots: https://ttm.sh/QzJ.png (left-align) & https://ttm.sh/Qzo.png (justified)
2020-07-04 04:47:07 wgreenhouse elpher kind of accidentally has really good TOFU behavior
2020-07-04 04:47:20 wgreenhouse because emacs's NSM does
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2020-07-04 10:58:26 kensanata makeworld: I just read your tofu post. Good to have a checklist (even though I don't actually do Gemini clients). As for the reaction to changed certificates, as a user I'm often stumped on what to do. What can you reasonably do? Even a reminder of what would be the correct procedure would be nice.
2020-07-04 11:00:11 kensanata makeworld: "If you need to make absolutely sure that you're not being snooped upon, you should compare the fingerprint below with a publication elsewhere. Obviously not on the site itself, since that's now under suspicion. Hopefully the owner has published the fingerprint in email signatures, source repositories, on the web, on social media, etc. Find it, check it, do it."
2020-07-04 11:00:30 kensanata makeworld: Something like that in any case. Except more polished. :)
2020-07-04 11:50:22 natpen` Okay, I found one more bug with GUS' backlinks yesterday (thank you to everyone who tested it out!!), but that's been fixed (I was undercounting backlinks due to trailing slash issues). I just more formally accounced backlinks to the list!
2020-07-04 11:50:43 natpen` announced*
2020-07-04 11:50:46 natpen` :)
2020-07-04 12:06:24 kensanata This is going to be interesting.
2020-07-04 12:07:59 natpen` Interesting, as in, "vehement opposition"? :P
2020-07-04 12:08:49 kensanata Haha, well, it could potentially be abused perhaps, I don't know.
2020-07-04 12:08:57 kensanata I'm more interested in other functionality, though.
2020-07-04 12:09:08 login funny thing is, non-repudiability is necessarily tied to loss of privacy.
2020-07-04 12:09:45 login How can there be non-repudiability only between the two people who communicated, without any third-party knowing it too.
2020-07-04 12:09:45 kensanata Like, could I write a bot that searches for backlinks any Gemini post on my site and build a feed from that, creating a a page on my blog linking to all the things that link to my blog?
2020-07-04 12:09:53 kensanata Like https://alexschroeder.ch/wiki?action=refer for example.
2020-07-04 12:10:11 login well
2020-07-04 12:10:12 kensanata That link of mine uses referrer tracking to discover links to my blog.
2020-07-04 12:10:22 login are you alex?
2020-07-04 12:10:25 kensanata YEs
2020-07-04 12:10:30 login alright
2020-07-04 12:10:50 login does gemini have referrers?
2020-07-04 12:11:05 kensanata No it does not. But now we have GUS backlinks. :D
2020-07-04 12:11:42 natpen` I'm also worried about potential for creating perverse incentives in Geminispace, or ways to abuse the functionality that I'm not thinking of
2020-07-04 12:12:18 natpen` kensanata: yes, I think you could definitely do that with this functionality
2020-07-04 12:13:22 natpen` it doen't affect search result ranking, so that's one small bit of defense. search results are ranked based on content alone. so there's no incentive to link spam.
2020-07-04 12:20:29 kensanata natpen`: Here's another thing I've been wondering about GUS, independent of backlinks: old pages, current pages. I wonder about this because on my own blog, I sometimes have the problem that I don't care for old page results and so I changed the order in which pages are searched to start with newer pages. As Gemini has no metadata to take "age" into account, don't you think we will eventually have the same problem?
2020-07-04 12:24:34 kensanata (I'm going to be away from the keyboard every now and then as I ought be packing a suitcase...)
2020-07-04 12:27:25 natpen` kensanata: that's a good question! I'm not sure. I feel like it might depend on the exact search to some extent - some content is more "timeless" than other content, I think. It's definitely difficult to distinguish though, so I don't have a great solution. And I also worry that giving across-the-board ranking bonus to newer content would create an incentive structure to just create lots of new stuff, if you wanted
2020-07-04 12:27:25 natpen` to rank highly on GUS. Whereas, in the current model, the incentive structure is much closer to "simply write good, relevant content."
2020-07-04 12:28:31 natpen` GUS does have the notion of "first seen" for URLs, so this could be a future area of experimentation, but currently it does nothing with that data point
2020-07-04 12:29:17 natpen` Are you going on an exciting summer vacation?? :)
2020-07-04 12:43:06 kensanata Heh, not really. We've had a big trip in winter so now we're just going to spend a week in the Swiss mountains.
2020-07-04 13:06:15 kensanata natpen`: I've noticed something on GUS; if I search for "wikipedia", I get a lot of links from my blog, but many of them are basically empty pages. Probaly my fault because a link like wikipedia:foo should probably link to the actual wikipedia page instead of linking to the empty page on my blog. It does point to a problem in the relevance algorithm, though. Those empty pages are definitely not good targets.
2020-07-04 13:06:28 natpen` That sounds delightful - geniess es!
2020-07-04 13:07:21 kensanata Danke
2020-07-04 13:08:59 natpen` kensanata: that's a good point... it's basically a shortcoming of "raw" TF-IDF, which is the type of ranking GUS currently does. It would be nice at some point to improve that, but I'm still trying to figure out the best way to do so...
2020-07-04 13:10:39 natpen` It's like, I could give a bonus to longer content pages, which would solve that, but then that would hurt the ranking of content-scarce home pages, which would be bad, because I think those should rightfully rank highly when relevant
2020-07-04 13:12:29 natpen` kensanata: do you think "wikipedia:foo" pages should be ignored by the crawl, as a fix to this specific issue? I'm not sure I understand exactly what they represent
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2020-07-04 14:04:25 @xq oh no
2020-07-04 14:04:31 @xq drew appeared on the ML :D
2020-07-04 14:06:34 dkibi I tend to like drews blog, but that mail is a facepalm
2020-07-04 14:10:39 @xq i just responded with "we already discussed this, please see archives"
2020-07-04 14:15:29 dkibi oh btw. one thing that is logical, but suprising at first is that the links from about:favourite are cross protocol links
2020-07-04 14:16:36 @xq yep :D
2020-07-04 14:17:05 @xq which will show you instantly what protocol this favourite is on, even if you renamed it
2020-07-04 14:19:04 ~tiwesdaeg does anyone else just browse through the GUS know hosts list looking for new sites?
2020-07-04 14:20:01 @xq i should do that some time :D
2020-07-04 14:21:02 gernot Also just BTW, should about:favourite be about:favorite? Everything else in the app seems to be AE.
2020-07-04 14:23:04 @xq :D
2020-07-04 14:24:05 companion_cube ahah drew
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2020-07-04 14:57:47 makeworld xq: I'm responding now to him, bc I think he doesn't know about TOFU
2020-07-04 15:01:31 @xq yeah i had the same impression
2020-07-04 15:10:21 makeworld I've updated my TOFU post to include a screenshot of what Deedum does
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2020-07-04 16:17:39 makeworld acdw: Hey!
2020-07-04 16:18:01 acdw hey makeworld, what is up!!?
2020-07-04 16:18:06 makeworld l made that TOFU post that you asked about, idk if you saw
2020-07-04 16:18:25 acdw I did! Thank you so much!! i'm reading it now
2020-07-04 16:18:27 makeworld It was a great idea thanks! It helped me realize a thing or two about my own implementations
2020-07-04 16:18:27 acdw it'
2020-07-04 16:18:29 acdw s very usefule
2020-07-04 16:18:32 makeworld :D
2020-07-04 16:18:41 makeworld Glad to hear it!
2020-07-04 16:19:13 acdw loving the "it's not perfectly secure, but it's better than nothing"
2020-07-04 16:19:29 acdw it's how I think of locking your door -- if someone *really* wants to break in, they will
2020-07-04 16:19:37 acdw but most of the time, bad actors are just jiggling handles
2020-07-04 16:19:49 makeworld Yeah, that's a good analogy
2020-07-04 16:19:58 acdw :)
2020-07-04 16:20:41 acdw quick q: how do you name the files? I was going to do the hash of the servername, but I realize that I can just do the authority
2020-07-04 16:20:49 acdw b/c it's by host, right?
2020-07-04 16:21:58 acdw oh and thank you so much for the walkthrough
2020-07-04 16:22:04 makeworld I have them all in one file, but basically I use the domain and port as the key, and the hash of the SPKI as the value. And then I have a separate key that stores the expiry for each domain and port
2020-07-04 16:22:08 makeworld You're welcome!
2020-07-04 16:22:34 acdw oh right, like normal people you probably have a database.
2020-07-04 16:22:44 acdw i was going to put them in a folder since I'm using bash
2020-07-04 16:22:52 makeworld So you could use the host (domain & port) for each file name if you want
2020-07-04 16:23:02 makeworld Maybe put it through base32 to make it filename safe?
2020-07-04 16:23:02 acdw that is a good idea & probably what i'll do
2020-07-04 16:23:12 acdw hmmmm right b/c windows is stupid
2020-07-04 16:23:26 makeworld I actually am not using a database lol, I'm just abusing a config file
2020-07-04 16:23:36 acdw well --- i'll have to look at allowable characters in url specification and i might be okay
2020-07-04 16:23:37 makeworld I should probably not do that...
2020-07-04 16:23:44 acdw lol no you absolutely should
2020-07-04 16:23:49 makeworld Well it's not really about the URL
2020-07-04 16:23:50 acdw I love abusing things
2020-07-04 16:24:02 makeworld It's just domain/IP and port. So the bad character you'll have is the colon
2020-07-04 16:24:03 acdw shit not people though
2020-07-04 16:24:19 acdw oh yes. .. I could replace the colon with say a dot or underscore tho
2020-07-04 16:24:36 acdw since i'll probably pull it out anyway
2020-07-04 16:24:54 makeworld You shouldn't use a dot bc domains already have that
2020-07-04 16:25:01 acdw oh right haha
2020-07-04 16:25:05 makeworld But maybe an underscore is fine
2020-07-04 16:25:22 acdw hm . domains might be able to have underscores
2020-07-04 16:25:29 acdw i'll have to check the speck
2020-07-04 16:25:45 acdw dang windows not allowing colons in filenames - what is their deal
2020-07-04 16:25:52 makeworld My bookmarks "database" is even worse lol. The base32 encoding of the URL is the key, and the bookmark name is the value haha
2020-07-04 16:25:55 makeworld Yeah lol
2020-07-04 16:26:06 acdw oh awesome haha
2020-07-04 16:26:46 acdw omg I could use a space to separate host and port
2020-07-04 16:27:04 acdw it would so work but be so ugly
2020-07-04 16:27:15 makeworld Haha sounds good!
2020-07-04 16:31:37 makeworld Hash on the first line, and expiry on the next one?
2020-07-04 16:32:38 acdw yeah probs
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2020-07-04 17:21:59 login makeworld: that is a funny database
2020-07-04 17:22:16 login acdw: use percentage encoding of a colon
2020-07-04 17:22:22 makeworld Don't tell anyone or I'll lose my Github stars!
2020-07-04 17:22:30 login stars cannot be taken away right?
2020-07-04 17:22:58 makeworld You can just click Unstar
2020-07-04 17:23:03 login ah
2020-07-04 17:23:07 makeworld But I was just kidding around :)
2020-07-04 17:23:35 makeworld Anyway I just did the database like that so I can use the same library I use for configuration
2020-07-04 17:24:18 kensanata tiwesdaeg: I also try to visit random hosts on that list every now and then!
2020-07-04 17:25:26 makeworld Me too
2020-07-04 17:27:35 kensanata These days, I mostly learning the price to pay of a configurable wiki engine. After about 17 years, I've accumulated a bazillion ways to format my text. Getting it back into a simpler format like Gemini is testing my patience.
2020-07-04 17:27:45 kensanata Today: shortcuts for Wikipedia links.
2020-07-04 17:28:01 makeworld Sounds like a tough task
2020-07-04 17:28:21 makeworld Maybe time to brush up on regex? Sounds like it's solvable with a lot of regex substitution
2020-07-04 17:28:42 makeworld If you don't jump out a window first
2020-07-04 17:28:45 kensanata Yeah. I'm the regex guy at our company. So it's just so... tiresome.
2020-07-04 17:28:58 makeworld Oh haha
2020-07-04 17:28:59 kensanata Stuff like this: https://alexschroeder.ch/wiki?action=browse;diff=2;id=Comments_on_2006-07-13_Emulator_Joy_with_Donkey_Kong_Country
2020-07-04 17:29:35 makeworld Ah ok
2020-07-04 17:29:59 kensanata Adding those underscores doesn't actually work that well. So I'm doing \[\[Wikipedia:(\S+?)\]\], \[\[Wikipedia:(\S+?)\s(\S+?)\]\], \[\[Wikipedia:(\S+?)\s(\S+?)\s(\S+?)\]\], etc. And it's making my hair turn grey.
2020-07-04 17:30:19 kensanata And then I discover that for a while I also used -> foo bar (en) to link to the English Wikipedia.
2020-07-04 17:30:26 kensanata Oh, and DeutscheWikipedia.
2020-07-04 17:30:35 makeworld I'm not going to try to understand that lol
2020-07-04 17:30:41 kensanata Oh, and actually -> foo bar (.+) for any language.
2020-07-04 17:30:42 makeworld Oh wow
2020-07-04 17:30:51 kensanata Oh, but except for g, since g links to Google searches.
2020-07-04 17:30:56 kensanata WTF was I thinking!!!!!!!!!!
2020-07-04 17:30:59 makeworld Haha
2020-07-04 17:31:11 makeworld Markdown wasn't enough huh
2020-07-04 17:31:31 makeworld Even pandoc can't help you here...
2020-07-04 17:32:05 kensanata Nope. I don't know how old it is? My blog started in 2003, with UseMod, the precursor to MediaWiki. I don't think we had Wikipedia and blogs at the time? I'd have to look back at stuff like A List Apart and Movable Type...
2020-07-04 17:32:23 makeworld Oh damn
2020-07-04 17:32:26 makeworld Ok, gtg
2020-07-04 17:32:28 ⚡ makeworld afk
2020-07-04 17:32:31 kensanata So it was UseMod format. Then I went to Wikimania and decided to add WikiCreole.
2020-07-04 17:32:45 kensanata And then I was posting a lot on forums, so I added bbCode because why not.
2020-07-04 17:32:50 kensanata CU
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2020-07-04 18:24:50 drskrzyk kensanata: you probably had livejournal available - I was on LJ going back to 2000-2001 or so
2020-07-04 18:26:19 drskrzyk Unless they had it country locked. They actually created memcached to solve some of their scaling problems and engineered a bunch of good stuff. I think the company associated with movable type bought them and they're dreamwidth now
2020-07-04 18:41:50 drskrzyk completely minor accomplishment but I got molly brown running on my fresh new rpi4 install last night. Getting the pi just right was way harder than molly brown, actually
2020-07-04 18:42:55 drskrzyk but it's 64 bit headless with encrypted / - tres bein. With everything running I'm hovering around 250m mem usage, so I'm trying to figure out what to do with the other 3.5g or so.
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2020-07-04 18:55:23 lukee drskrzyk: I'm running Molly Brown on a Pi here as my testing machine
2020-07-04 18:55:48 drskrzyk It was a fun project for sure.
2020-07-04 18:56:50 lukee I'm running on an old Pi model B I got as a present. Never knew what to do with it. But now it is a Gemini playground.
2020-07-04 18:57:00 lukee A bit slow. Probably much faster on a Pi4
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2020-07-04 19:12:55 drskrzyk it's kind of ridic :P I'd repurposed it from being what I'd used as a primary workstation for a while. "Workstation" meaning screwing around on the internet, reading mail, and downloading stuff
2020-07-04 19:13:04 drskrzyk not like, curing cancer or breaking hashes
2020-07-04 19:23:40 lukee well these things are sort of disposable toys that are almost good enough to do real stuff
2020-07-04 19:38:05 acdw login: that's a good idea, thanks
2020-07-04 19:38:11 acdw also sorry i didn't /away
2020-07-04 19:38:14 acdw i was gone for a while
2020-07-04 19:41:11 dkibi so has gemini hiting hacker news again had a huge impact?
2020-07-04 19:41:18 dkibi in activity?
2020-07-04 19:43:19 dkibi the "no inline images" discussino amuses me: is it really so hard for people to imagine that people might want to have terminal clients as first class citizens?
2020-07-04 19:43:44 yeti sixels?
2020-07-04 19:43:50 yeti :-Þ
2020-07-04 19:44:31 yeti everyone has to live without images because the gemini users want to be different at all cost?
2020-07-04 19:44:32 dkibi :P
2020-07-04 19:45:18 yeti wasnt there a comment suggesting that gemini's primary goal is to be different?
2020-07-04 19:45:31 yeti browsers were meant to be inclusive...
2020-07-04 19:45:41 yeti lots of protocols in a shared frontend
2020-07-04 19:45:46 dkibi I mean: it's sady that terminals are an array of character cells with some color, but that's the world we live in and a lot of people really like this user interface.
2020-07-04 19:46:07 yeti I spend 95% or more of my day in xterms
2020-07-04 19:46:13 dkibi don't know I didn't read all the comments, just saw it this morning and the inline image thing was the top comment then
2020-07-04 19:46:19 yeti but I write stuff that needs images
2020-07-04 19:46:32 yeti and links
2020-07-04 19:47:28 dkibi I have 4 non terminals open right now and one is zathura (i.e. nothing but a pdf page) vs. 12 terminals ^^
2020-07-04 19:48:17 yeti I'd count the shells... not the xterms... and that's probably ~50 here
2020-07-04 19:48:36 acdw ooh thanks for letting me know yn has discussion on gemin
2020-07-04 19:48:42 acdw s/gemin/gemini
2020-07-04 19:48:56 acdw I was looking for an excuse to not start folding laundry
2020-07-04 19:49:02 yeti I really prefer the terminal but even they can do graphics today
2020-07-04 19:49:30 dkibi your poor laundry xD
2020-07-04 19:49:30 yeti ok... yesterday too :-P vt3xy
2020-07-04 19:50:22 dkibi I just switched terminal emulator to get emojis xD
2020-07-04 19:50:41 acdw oh yeah I have to install a patched xfontrenderer thing so st doesn't crash with some emojis
2020-07-04 19:50:47 acdw or... maybe just use urxvt
2020-07-04 19:51:13 dkibi I used urxvt and didn't find out it emoijs should work or not or if it's just some patched version
2020-07-04 19:51:28 acdw did emojis work on urxvt?
2020-07-04 19:51:33 dkibi now I use kitty, there are some shortcommings but it seems alright enough
2020-07-04 19:51:34 dkibi not for mw
2020-07-04 19:51:35 dkibi me
2020-07-04 19:51:40 acdw shoot
2020-07-04 19:51:51 acdw kitty was cool yes, I quit using it b/c it wasn't using the font i wanted
2020-07-04 19:51:59 acdw but it's not a font i even remember now
2020-07-04 19:52:05 acdw i did like kitty a lot
2020-07-04 19:53:13 dkibi it can't do subpixel aa and I used a super narrow font that looked quite bad without that. but now I switched font too and I think that super narrow one might have been a bad decicion
2020-07-04 19:53:26 dkibi regarding readability
2020-07-04 19:53:39 acdw yeah i'm using Iosevka I think
2020-07-04 19:54:22 dkibi also ibus is not well supported, but rfc1345 works, Hangul doesn't, but I have never been using that in the terminal anyway
2020-07-04 19:54:56 dkibi I used input mono condensed
2020-07-04 19:55:08 dkibi …
2020-07-04 19:55:19 acdw good to know!
2020-07-04 19:55:31 acdw I don't thyink I'm going to use any of that stuff, slash it's not supported in st either
2020-07-04 19:57:28 dkibi I picked rfc1345 at some point to input unicode stuff (for no particular reason), but since I memorized some of the shorthands I want to stick with it
2020-07-04 20:01:03 acdw ah
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2020-07-04 20:04:38 yeti hihi... looks like my dumbest 1-line-client can do graphics
2020-07-04 20:04:40 yeti .-Þ
2020-07-04 20:06:13 acdw nice yeti!
2020-07-04 20:06:17 acdw paste it here?
2020-07-04 20:06:39 yeti run in an xterm
2020-07-04 20:06:45 yeti with sixels enabled
2020-07-04 20:06:47 yeti { sleep 1; printf "gemini://envs.net/~yeti/marvin.gmi\r\n" ; } | gnutls-cli --insecure envs.net:1965 | awk '/^[0-9][0-9] .+/{hot=1}hot'
2020-07-04 20:09:04 yeti http://yeti.freeshell.org/tmp/20200704-200717-UTC__gemini_with_graphics.png
2020-07-04 20:09:43 acdw oh nice :)
2020-07-04 20:14:10 yeti I need to think a bit or even a long more over it
2020-07-04 20:15:07 yeti if there is one grmini browser that can do graphics, there woll be lots of them soon
2020-07-04 20:15:14 acdw that's true
2020-07-04 20:15:44 yeti should be doable in plain bash
2020-07-04 20:16:02 yeti except for password stuff for games and such
2020-07-04 20:16:12 yeti havent grok'ed that yet
2020-07-04 20:16:24 acdw oh for sure! -- honestly even password stuff can be done with read -s
2020-07-04 20:16:41 acdw I think that's a more recent bash feature
2020-07-04 20:17:58 lukee I saw above that gemini hit HN again today
2020-07-04 20:18:02 dkibi I'm not sure about that, I got the impression so far that many people build tools within their own sets of goals/values and don't just incoperate features because they are doable
2020-07-04 20:18:21 yeti I need a market pressure
2020-07-04 20:18:23 yeti :-Þ
2020-07-04 20:18:29 lukee That explains why downloads went up by an order of magnitude today
2020-07-04 20:18:39 lukee I was wondering what happened
2020-07-04 20:18:43 acdw haha yep
2020-07-04 20:19:14 yeti I need a sixel demo without possibly copyrighted image...
2020-07-04 20:19:14 dkibi e.g. castor can do color escape sequences, but xq will not implement that in kristall
2020-07-04 20:19:21 lukee did HN decide it is a goodthing(tm)?
2020-07-04 20:19:47 lukee ANSI codes wont go into GemiNaut either...
2020-07-04 20:19:57 yeti too late
2020-07-04 20:20:07 yeti it is doable, it will be done
2020-07-04 20:20:08 dkibi no HN didn't like it
2020-07-04 20:20:27 @xq dkibi: i will implement it /maybe/ :D
2020-07-04 20:20:31 dkibi oh
2020-07-04 20:20:32 @tomasino Third time's the charm I guess
2020-07-04 20:20:34 dkibi :P
2020-07-04 20:20:35 lukee ANSI codes are a terminal thing, not universal text thing
2020-07-04 20:20:50 dkibi xq: well I will not use it!
2020-07-04 20:21:05 yeti and thats the thing with graphics...
2020-07-04 20:21:10 yeti you dont have to use it
2020-07-04 20:21:14 yeti but let it exist
2020-07-04 20:21:22 dkibi (that said my secret unannounced project should probably have no problem with them ^^)
2020-07-04 20:21:22 lukee they assume a specific type of implementation that is very particular
2020-07-04 20:21:28 acdw yeah I like ANSI codes for fun with a few things, but as a whole it's not really portable
2020-07-04 20:21:30 @xq dkibi: it will be optional :D
2020-07-04 20:21:34 @xq as all "fancy" features
2020-07-04 20:21:48 @xq lukee: true, but having a portable way of specifying text color is rather cool imho
2020-07-04 20:21:51 @xq especially for art stuff
2020-07-04 20:21:53 @xq but!
2020-07-04 20:22:00 yeti pure text gemini has no future except for a separatist community
2020-07-04 20:22:03 @xq we could just use "text/x-ansi" for that
2020-07-04 20:22:15 dkibi well some sites that color their logo look alright with the escape sequences rendered as plain text so it's fine
2020-07-04 20:22:19 @xq we don't need to extend text/gemini to the max
2020-07-04 20:22:25 @xq we can just use multiple file types
2020-07-04 20:22:30 @tomasino Use another mime and enjoy
2020-07-04 20:22:39 lukee urgh
2020-07-04 20:22:48 @tomasino text/gemini doesn't inline resources
2020-07-04 20:23:12 lukee yes serve as text/x-ansi seems sensible
2020-07-04 20:23:16 acdw i like this one comment on hn that's like "Gemini's proponents are trying to push a protocol" ... like, no we're not buddy
2020-07-04 20:23:21 acdw at least I'm not
2020-07-04 20:23:23 acdw I just think it's neat
2020-07-04 20:24:11 @tomasino Don't sweat HN. The first two times Gemini hit the front page of bright a bunch of positivity and excitement. There's no rhyme or reason to it
2020-07-04 20:24:25 @tomasino It brought*
2020-07-04 20:24:34 acdw yep, it's funny b/c they seem so level-headed much of the time and then it's like, oh yeah, it's a forum
2020-07-04 20:24:39 acdw filled with techbros
2020-07-04 20:24:48 acdw so it's gonna be techbro-ey sometimes
2020-07-04 20:24:48 dkibi "this will never catch on", well it already has to a degree such that it's a nice thing
2020-07-04 20:24:57 lukee favourite quote: "This is like pushing for stone cart wheels when spoked wheels are already available."
2020-07-04 20:25:03 acdw yeah honestly IDK if I want it to "catch on" in the way that like, Facebook has
2020-07-04 20:25:17 acdw and I don't think it will
2020-07-04 20:25:27 lukee bring me my stone chisel :)
2020-07-04 20:25:35 acdw lukee: same comment I was referencing! lol
2020-07-04 20:26:36 dkibi I think there are many great people reading HN. there are also many great people writing comments. but also a lot of people commeing from a certain culture (not suprising given who runs it)
2020-07-04 20:26:51 acdw yepyep
2020-07-04 20:26:53 lukee was there anyone from gemini community putting the case for it?
2020-07-04 20:26:55 @xq who runs HN?
2020-07-04 20:26:59 acdw ycombinator
2020-07-04 20:27:05 acdw a startup incubator in the bay area
2020-07-04 20:27:19 acdw so vv growth hacker mindset,
2020-07-04 20:27:35 acdw vv Silicon Valley
2020-07-04 20:27:35 @xq ah
2020-07-04 20:27:43 lukee I dont hate hacker news, but it is a very specific type of mindset
2020-07-04 20:27:47 @xq "new" == "better than old"
2020-07-04 20:28:02 lukee Gemini: HackerOlds
2020-07-04 20:28:10 @xq :D
2020-07-04 20:28:11 @tomasino I don't see any reason to go be an evangelist on HN. That's specifically the type of web-heads Gemini is making an escape hatch from
2020-07-04 20:28:27 acdw yeah, it's kind of neat to read for me personally,because I know that I match up with the "demographic" -- I'm a white cis guy in about to be 30 who likes computers -- but I'm not in the culture like, at all
2020-07-04 20:28:34 dkibi I spotted sloum (who linked kristall ^^)
2020-07-04 20:28:49 lukee I dont have a HN account, but do read stuff on there. In fact it was there I first heard about gemini
2020-07-04 20:28:50 @xq i wonder if i should put my release 0.4 of kristall to either HN or lobsters
2020-07-04 20:28:53 acdw tomasino: 100%
2020-07-04 20:29:08 acdw I think I actually might've first heard about it from there too
2020-07-04 20:29:28 acdw can we have a HN gateway in Gemini called HackerOlds? that'd be rad
2020-07-04 20:29:36 lukee haha
2020-07-04 20:29:42 @tomasino I think you came in around wave 2, acdw
2020-07-04 20:29:51 acdw yeah I think so :)
2020-07-04 20:29:58 @xq i came with the Castor wave :D
2020-07-04 20:30:06 @tomasino :)
2020-07-04 20:30:21 lukee me too
2020-07-04 20:30:24 acdw maybe it was when Castor showed up on Masto or something for me... hm
2020-07-04 20:30:32 acdw It's a good wave!
2020-07-04 20:30:34 @tomasino I came from the other side, the gopher origins
2020-07-04 20:30:41 acdw oh yeah, the "cool" side :P
2020-07-04 20:30:46 @tomasino ;)
2020-07-04 20:31:06 @tomasino We've been the HN running joke since before HN existed
2020-07-04 20:31:12 acdw honestly I'm grateful to gemini for showing me gopher in a way I could get into .. I tried to do gopher before but it honestly made no sense to me
2020-07-04 20:31:12 lukee we have some people walking backwards, some forwards
2020-07-04 20:31:20 acdw haha yes
2020-07-04 20:31:34 acdw there's great content on gopher tho, so I'm glad gemini made it more accessible to me
2020-07-04 20:31:39 @tomasino Now you can watch my peertube videos!
2020-07-04 20:31:43 lukee gopher isnt so bad if you have a decent client
2020-07-04 20:32:02 @tomasino My heart is still in gopher
2020-07-04 20:32:34 lukee honest question to tomasino: do you really appreciate knowing a link is to a DIR or TXT resource?
2020-07-04 20:32:53 lukee or is that just an implementation quirk - its just text content with links, or maybe not
2020-07-04 20:33:01 @tomasino My client appreciates it so it knows whether to render it one way or another
2020-07-04 20:33:23 lukee yes the client must know, but do you as a user like to know this?
2020-07-04 20:33:25 @xq lukee: imho it's bad design :D
2020-07-04 20:33:33 ⚡ xq runs away from tomasino
2020-07-04 20:34:07 @tomasino Heehee, sometimes it's useful, but practically not so much
2020-07-04 20:34:12 lukee personally I always found that offputting
2020-07-04 20:34:28 lukee in my own implementation, this info is not shown to the user
2020-07-04 20:34:59 lukee A lot of DIR entries seem to have a lot of content in these days with the i selectors
2020-07-04 20:35:13 @tomasino Some do, like me
2020-07-04 20:35:27 @tomasino Some avoid it and try to keep it all in type 0
2020-07-04 20:35:41 lukee it makes the experience more fluid, but I suppose the UI to build the gophermaps is limited?
2020-07-04 20:36:02 @tomasino Depends on if you have a good way to author in type 1 or not. I wrote a helper app for myself
2020-07-04 20:36:06 lukee if there is such a thing. Or folks just write it out by hand with the tabs etc
2020-07-04 20:36:22 @tomasino burrow(1)
2020-07-04 20:36:37 @tomasino It's linked in my gopher hole
2020-07-04 20:36:46 lukee I'll check it out thanks
2020-07-04 20:36:57 lukee is thata quite commonly used
2020-07-04 20:37:11 lukee approach in gopher to have a specific app like that?
2020-07-04 20:37:56 @tomasino Usually people start simple, then make a helper script and then it grows
2020-07-04 20:38:40 lukee I wondered if there will be people who will author in text/gemini then generate the gophermaps from that?
2020-07-04 20:38:54 @tomasino Getting this kid ready for bed. Distracted...
2020-07-04 20:39:01 lukee ok no probs
2020-07-04 20:39:17 @tomasino I generate gemini from gopher for cosmic voyage
2020-07-04 20:39:21 acdw aww
2020-07-04 20:39:26 @tomasino I also generate the web from gopher
2020-07-04 20:39:45 acdw I'm suer you could do it the opposite way too
2020-07-04 20:40:13 lukee I guess someone is already in gopher they are committed to generating gopher already
2020-07-04 20:40:16 @tomasino Yep, though knowing the type is a bit trickier
2020-07-04 20:40:46 @tomasino Cosmic is gopher-first, though the authors don't need to mess with anything but plain text
2020-07-04 20:41:05 lukee do you have a feeling for the proportion of (active) gopher authors who are participating in gemini authoring or serving as well?
2020-07-04 20:41:28 @tomasino https://tildegit.org/cosmic/cosmic/src/branch/master/awk/gophermap2gemini.awk
2020-07-04 20:41:53 @tomasino Not really. At first it was everyone, but then the HN waves began
2020-07-04 20:42:11 @tomasino Now some of the most active people aren't using gopher at all
2020-07-04 20:42:23 @tomasino It's great
2020-07-04 20:42:23 acdw I know I don't do gopher
2020-07-04 20:42:30 lukee in my client I render gopher to GMI then use the same GMI renderer
2020-07-04 20:42:39 acdw lukee my client does the same thing
2020-07-04 20:42:42 @xq lukee: same
2020-07-04 20:42:47 @tomasino :)
2020-07-04 20:42:51 @tomasino Easy!
2020-07-04 20:42:57 acdw I basically bashified tomasino's awk script and pipe the gophermap thru it
2020-07-04 20:42:58 @xq gopher, gemini and all builtins use gemini rendering
2020-07-04 20:43:07 acdw nice
2020-07-04 20:43:09 @tomasino Nice
2020-07-04 20:43:25 acdw it makes a lot of sense, honestly -- gemini is that great middle bettween gopher and http,
2020-07-04 20:43:31 acdw s/,$//
2020-07-04 20:43:32 @xq yep
2020-07-04 20:44:00 @tomasino It's great
2020-07-04 20:44:00 lukee I wrote a custom gopher parser. I try to do a certain amount of auto-linking in gopher text too
2020-07-04 20:44:18 acdw that's rad and vv commendable
2020-07-04 20:45:16 lukee I even have a function that tries to come up with a useful page title based on parsing the gopher URI and making it pretty
2020-07-04 20:45:40 acdw that's cool as hell !
2020-07-04 20:45:45 @xq neat!
2020-07-04 20:47:24 @tomasino For great justice!
2020-07-04 20:47:48 lukee like this
2020-07-04 20:47:49 lukee https://imgur.com/a/S1LVwzt
2020-07-04 20:49:14 @xq i need to implement some title guessing as well
2020-07-04 20:49:24 @xq can't let Geminaut be ahead of Kristall! :D
2020-07-04 20:49:50 lukee its a hairy bucket of heuristics
2020-07-04 20:49:58 @xq yep
2020-07-04 20:51:14 acdw oh yeah I bet it's really ugly and complicated code :)
2020-07-04 20:51:19 acdw but it looks so pretty
2020-07-04 20:51:34 @tomasino :)
2020-07-04 20:52:04 @tomasino Anyone play with backlinks in GUS yet?
2020-07-04 20:52:16 lukee it not too bad, but it took me a while to tune it.
2020-07-04 20:53:07 ⚡ xq just got the first version of my implementation of epochs HackVR running :)
2020-07-04 20:53:14 lukee Basically, for a text file, take the filename, remove .txt, normalise the separators, title case it. But if its too short, use the normalised path instead
2020-07-04 20:53:16 acdw did a little bit, the backlinks are cool
2020-07-04 20:53:33 acdw oh that's not too complex, lukee
2020-07-04 20:53:36 lukee for gophermaps, generally just use the last segment of the path
2020-07-04 20:54:56 lukee see gopher-uri-to-title in https://github.com/LukeEmmet/GemiNaut/blob/master/GemiNaut/GmiConverters/gopher-utils.r3
2020-07-04 20:56:55 acdw thanks, i'll check it out :)
2020-07-04 21:02:46 acdw just had a wild idea -- gemini client in vimscript
2020-07-04 21:02:55 acdw i should probably finish bollux tho tbh
2020-07-04 21:16:27 kensanata I'm looking for short instructions on how to use the openssl command-line to generate client certificates, given that I create my server certs using ｢openssl req -new -x509 -nodes -out cert.pem -keyout key.pem｣ – any suggestions?
2020-07-04 21:16:53 acdw I think it might be the same commandline actually
2020-07-04 21:16:58 acdw thoguh I haven't got around to researching it
2020-07-04 21:17:10 acdw but I have been told that clients and servers, to TLS, are actually the same
2020-07-04 21:17:24 acdw btw I love your quotes
2020-07-04 21:18:35 kensanata Thanks. :)
2020-07-04 21:19:26 kensanata acdw: I think the client certificates have to be signed somehow. If you just create them, then server can't "verify" them later when the server requests them to be sent for verification.
2020-07-04 21:19:41 kensanata At least that's my hypothesis for why it doesn't work. :)
2020-07-04 21:19:55 acdw oh you might be right.
2020-07-04 21:21:26 acdw astrobotany.mozz.us says to do:
2020-07-04 21:21:27 kensanata So now the questions is, I think: what's my CA? Does Debian come with one? The "snake oil" thing?
2020-07-04 21:21:40 acdw openssl genrsa -out astrobotany.key 4096
2020-07-04 21:21:51 acdw openssl req -new -key astrobotany.key -out astrobotany.rea
2020-07-04 21:21:53 acdw openssl req -new -key astrobotany.key -out astrobotany.req
2020-07-04 21:22:07 acdw and you leave everything blank except Common Name
2020-07-04 21:22:16 acdw OH no wait.
2020-07-04 21:22:22 acdw you can do .. openssl ca ? I think?
2020-07-04 21:22:50 kensanata Hm.
2020-07-04 21:22:55 acdw https://www.linode.com/docs/security/ssl/create-a-self-signed-tls-certificate/
2020-07-04 21:23:34 acdw I think you need to add a -newkey option
2020-07-04 21:23:39 acdw to tie the cert to a key
2020-07-04 21:23:50 acdw though I'm not sure
2020-07-04 21:27:37 kensanata It's still a mistery and I lack all confidence about this.
2020-07-04 21:27:39 kensanata Gah.
2020-07-04 21:28:07 kensanata I think I'll work on some Gemini Wiki features instead. :)
2020-07-04 21:29:41 lukee another juicy quote from HN to entertain you "In a way Gemini could have been published by writer of European Union , North Korea or Soviet Union laws, I can't belive this is a US products, as it contains too much to liberty constrain ;) "
2020-07-04 21:30:04 lukee where does one start responding to that?
2020-07-04 21:30:26 lukee I suppose its said with a winking face, for irony
2020-07-04 21:30:51 kensanata Answer "Finland?" or wherever Solderpunk was at the time?
2020-07-04 21:33:00 lukee yes, but its just such a bizarre outburst
2020-07-04 21:34:55 kensanata I think one has to translate that into "Why is minimalism a thing? Why does it have to be mandated? Minimalism in the web has meaning because you can do otherwise. Brutalism in architecture because you can hide it all. To mandate minimalism is simply poverty. It has no meaning."
2020-07-04 21:35:25 kensanata So imagine that, and reply to this imagined intelligent challenge, and hope for a good conversation. Or have that conversation elsewhere. :D
2020-07-04 21:37:00 lukee I'm not sure Brutalism is a target reference for what we ought to aspire to
2020-07-04 21:37:51 lukee for me its more about humanism, but I take the point about brutalism as a signpost for radical and unadorned simplicity
2020-07-04 21:38:25 @tomasino I dig brutalism so much more after learning about it on 99% invisible
2020-07-04 21:38:34 lukee Brutalist architecture was often not designed with the humans in mind, just an ego stroke for the architect
2020-07-04 21:38:52 lukee well 99% invisible is amazing
2020-07-04 21:39:32 kensanata haha
2020-07-04 21:40:19 kensanata You should write a post on your site about it, and I will write one on mine, and then we can link to each other.
2020-07-04 21:41:26 lukee it does sound good. I think there is lots of implicit cultural philosophy in the gemini community. What are we trying to do and why.
2020-07-04 21:41:35 lukee And what would be a good solution
2020-07-04 21:41:51 lukee what tradeoffs can we make, and which ones wont we make
2020-07-04 21:41:57 kensanata do you have a link to that quote? I'm going to write something right now.
2020-07-04 21:42:22 lukee which quote - the HN one?
2020-07-04 21:42:26 makeworld Brutualism is great
2020-07-04 21:42:32 kensanata The one about North Korea.
2020-07-04 21:42:44 lukee stand by I'll get it
2020-07-04 21:43:29 makeworld Woah md2gemini got a shoutout in that post! Cool
2020-07-04 21:43:57 lukee the full page is here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23730408
2020-07-04 21:44:08 lukee they dont seem to have permalinks for the entries on the page
2020-07-04 21:44:20 kensanata OK, thanks.
2020-07-04 21:44:53 lukee but you can get the item on its own (as if you were to respond to it)
2020-07-04 21:44:54 lukee https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23734531
2020-07-04 21:45:18 lukee or you can just search for "north korea" in the top level page
2020-07-04 21:48:26 makeworld Everyone on HN seems to just think that the magic bullet is to declare a subset of HTML and HTTP lol
2020-07-04 21:49:01 lukee that horse has bolted
2020-07-04 21:49:11 kensanata Whis is a fine argument to make, I think! It does need an explanation.
2020-07-04 21:49:36 lukee there is no magic bullet
2020-07-04 21:49:44 kensanata And it's not immediately obvious that the links from the safe net to the unsafe net that Solderpunk postulated is a good counter argument.
2020-07-04 21:50:02 kensanata Well, perhaps I'm too interested in Philosophy in any case.
2020-07-04 21:50:37 lukee I wonder if the irony of the "success" of gemini, will be that it is just to bare bones for almost everyone, so the pressures to evolve it will be much lower
2020-07-04 21:50:47 lukee like how gopher survived
2020-07-04 21:50:56 lukee to bare bones -> too bare bones
2020-07-04 21:51:12 makeworld Yeah maybe
2020-07-04 21:51:26 @tomasino HTML all the things
2020-07-04 21:51:28 lukee i.e. it will be a "success" for us if it is a "failure" for the wider world
2020-07-04 21:51:30 @tomasino :P
2020-07-04 21:51:45 makeworld Yes for sure :)
2020-07-04 21:52:58 lukee Gemini: "purposefully striving for failure" (TM)
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2020-07-04 21:58:05 makeworld Haha great
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2020-07-04 22:04:29 lukee hey folks, its been great chatting as always. its late here so I'm turning in.
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2020-07-04 22:09:27 kensanata Does anybody remember the link where Solderpunk argued for the SafeWeb?
2020-07-04 22:10:33 kensanata gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/users/solderpunk/cornedbeef/why-not-just-use-a-subset-of-http-and-html.gmi
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2020-07-05 04:48:56 mk270 on the "safeweb", see also: gemini://gemini.ucant.org/meta/why-gemini.gemini
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2020-07-05 12:15:10 natpen Historical growth data for Geminispace is now available at gemini://gus.guru/statistics/historical/overall ! You can see the number of pages and domains go up pretty dramatically during the publicity waves in May and June. Thanks to makeworld for asking for this feature (and also very excited to see the things you have in mind to build with these data points).
2020-07-05 12:19:15 @tomasino natpen++
2020-07-05 12:20:03 @tomasino this is so neat
2020-07-05 12:22:30 @tomasino playing with backlinks now
2020-07-05 12:24:29 natpen oh! I just saw... I think I need to normalize trailing slashes away
2020-07-05 12:24:51 natpen you tried gemini://gus.guru/backlinks?gemini%3A//tilde.black which has nothing, but if you add a trailing slash: gemini://gus.guru/backlinks?gemini%3A//tilde.black/ then you'll find them
2020-07-05 12:25:37 natpen the backlinks adventure is really testing my patience with dealing with trailing slashes in URLs in an intuitive and consistent way :sweats:
2020-07-05 12:31:38 @tomasino aww, sorry to give you slash-sweats
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2020-07-05 12:33:10 @tomasino oh, this is so great. I had no idea mozz ran a test suite against tilde.black
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2020-07-05 12:55:26 natpen Glad you like it!! I've been finding all sorts of interesting links playing with this too. I just pushed a fix to the trailing slash issue, so hopefully that will "just work" now, without anyone, including me, having to think about trailing slashes any more :)
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2020-07-05 15:07:06 makeworld https://github.com/michael-lazar/jetforce/issues/9#issuecomment-653837940
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2020-07-05 15:07:26 makeworld Anyone want to offer there thoughts here on this before I write some post up about it?
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2020-07-05 15:08:12 makeworld Basically he's suggesting we stop using expiry dates for certs
2020-07-05 15:08:21 makeworld And just rely on keys
2020-07-05 15:08:26 makeworld And it makes a lot of sense to me
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2020-07-05 15:18:25 makeworld xq tomasino any opinions?
2020-07-05 15:26:42 @tomasino I'm not sure
2020-07-05 15:26:51 @tomasino It makes sense but I'm not sure
2020-07-05 15:27:03 makeworld Yeah...
2020-07-05 15:27:08 @tomasino Having an expiration means nothing, really
2020-07-05 15:27:23 @xq yeah sounds reasonable
2020-07-05 15:27:36 @tomasino If I hit a cert that changed I don't have any action to check the new one on a reasonable way
2020-07-05 15:28:21 @tomasino What steps can I as a user take to ensure I'm safe and communicating with the right server
2020-07-05 15:28:23 makeworld The advantage of this is that certs will change very rarely, so you can be more aware of it
2020-07-05 15:28:37 @tomasino That's true
2020-07-05 15:28:55 makeworld Like right now they change all the time, so as a user I will just accept any issue pretty much bc I just want to see the site
2020-07-05 15:29:05 @tomasino Exactly
2020-07-05 15:29:19 makeworld But if they were really rare then the warning popup could be more aggressive
2020-07-05 15:29:35 @tomasino Possibly
2020-07-05 15:30:19 makeworld The only times it would happen would be an MITM, or if someone's hard drive fails and they have no backups or whatever
2020-07-05 15:30:25 @tomasino Theres no way to tie info to a new cert, like a comment on why or when it changed
2020-07-05 15:30:33 @tomasino Something a user might care about
2020-07-05 15:30:59 makeworld Yeah that's true. But I figure reducing how often cert changes is a good idea
2020-07-05 15:31:11 @tomasino On the surface I agree
2020-07-05 15:31:16 makeworld But?
2020-07-05 15:31:26 @tomasino But I'm ignorant of much of the innards of TLS
2020-07-05 15:31:39 @tomasino There is probably stuff I'm just unaware of
2020-07-05 15:31:51 makeworld Yeah, I just have to work off what I know
2020-07-05 15:32:17 @tomasino Put out the idea to the list and let the TLS nerds beat it up
2020-07-05 15:32:40 makeworld I was thinking about writing a post, but maybe a list post is better?
2020-07-05 15:32:50 makeworld Maybe I'll write the post and then link to it
2020-07-05 15:32:51 @tomasino Both
2020-07-05 15:32:56 makeworld Yeah ok
2020-07-05 15:32:58 makeworld Thanks!
2020-07-05 15:33:02 @tomasino My pleasure
2020-07-05 15:33:39 @tomasino I will agree with you absolutely that as of right now an invalid cert just means I revoke and TOFU all over again
2020-07-05 15:33:56 @tomasino There's nothing else for me to do
2020-07-05 15:34:10 @tomasino Maybe there's an alternative there
2020-07-05 15:34:41 makeworld Yeah
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2020-07-05 16:17:31 makeworld tomasino: gemini://makeworld.gq/test/2020-07-05-tofu-2.gmi
2020-07-05 16:17:46 makeworld Can you help me make sure this actually makes sense before I post it?
2020-07-05 16:21:43 makeworld Meh, I'll just send it, it's pretty short
2020-07-05 16:21:52 makeworld I'm open to changing stuff if you see anything though
2020-07-05 16:27:10 dctrud hello all. Just started to dip my toe into gemini at gemini://dctrud.randomroad.net
2020-07-05 16:28:33 makeworld Alright, I posted it and sent it to the ml
2020-07-05 16:28:54 makeworld dctrud: Nice!
2020-07-05 16:34:29 dctrud thanks... hoping that at some point there'll be something interesting there
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2020-07-05 16:41:36 makeworld It's interesting already :)
2020-07-05 16:41:39 makeworld lukee: Hey
2020-07-05 16:42:22 lukee hi makeworld
2020-07-05 16:43:57 lukee saw your post about not using expiry dates - seem radical, but maybe it makes sense. I dont know if I have an opinion yet
2020-07-05 16:44:07 lukee its not really my area of expertise
2020-07-05 16:45:30 lukee what do expiry dates protect against?
2020-07-05 16:45:58 lukee against someone who has stolen my certificate pretending to be me forever?
2020-07-05 16:46:54 makeworld Yeah, but they only really make sense when you're using CAs on the traditional internet
2020-07-05 16:47:34 lukee because if its a self-signed tofu, I cannot prove I am me anyway?
2020-07-05 16:47:45 makeworld A CA like Let's Encrypt will sign your cert that has an expiry date of 90 days, which means they're saying they authorize it for that period of time. If someone gets access to your private key, their damage is limited to 90 days worth.
2020-07-05 16:47:48 lukee apart from some out of band channel
2020-07-05 16:47:53 makeworld But that doesn't really apply when there's no CA
2020-07-05 16:48:12 makeworld It's not really about that
2020-07-05 16:48:54 makeworld It's just like, when a CA signs your cert, they're approving it and everyone will accept that. But you don't want the cert to just be approved till the end of time, bc if someone gets access to the priv key then you're screwed
2020-07-05 16:49:33 makeworld So there's an expiry date so that even if something bad happens with the previous cert, you can have a new one
2020-07-05 16:50:30 lukee but with self-signed certs, there is no authority behind it
2020-07-05 16:50:52 lukee so all you get to know is whether the signing agent has changed or not
2020-07-05 16:55:13 makeworld Yeah
2020-07-05 16:55:33 makeworld That's pretty much the idea. There's no CAs, so when a cert changes you can't know whether it's good or bad
2020-07-05 16:55:44 makeworld So a good solution is just to "never" change the cert
2020-07-05 16:58:05 lukee so the main point is that the TLS layer protects the transport, but noone should expect it to mean you are talking to who you think you are talking to
2020-07-05 16:58:48 lukee when we are talking about self-signed certs
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2020-07-05 17:05:39 makeworld Yeah pretty much
2020-07-05 17:05:56 makeworld I could intercept traffic and send a different cert
2020-07-05 17:06:28 makeworld That's basically the attack vector that all this stuff is trying to prevent, a man-in-the-middle attack
2020-07-05 17:07:53 lukee It might be fine - I'm not in a position to have a strong opinion on this
2020-07-05 17:09:00 lukee clients and users still need a workflow for when the a self-signed cert does occur. For various reasons servers might still want a shorter expiry than 100 yrs
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2020-07-05 18:17:28 makeworld lukee: You mean when the change occurs?
2020-07-05 18:17:40 makeworld I would say that the workflow is just to notify the user
2020-07-05 18:18:19 lukee yes, sorry not very clearly written
2020-07-05 18:18:54 lukee I see solderpunk has just chipped into the thread on the mailing list
2020-07-05 18:22:25 drskrzyk lukee: the tls one?
2020-07-05 18:23:14 drskrzyk nm, the atom xml one. Ignore me :D
2020-07-05 18:26:52 makeworld lukee: Yes, he has. Looks like it was a bad idea after all haha
2020-07-05 18:27:34 makeworld I updated my post to include that first paragraph
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2020-07-05 19:12:49 @tomasino Ahha
2020-07-05 19:12:56 @tomasino We'll okay then
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2020-07-05 19:13:26 @tomasino Maybe his guide will explain what a user can actually do with a cert warning message
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2020-07-06 02:21:01 ℹ Mode #gemini [+oo xq ben] by hub.tilde.chat
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2020-07-06 14:34:47 makeworld xq: I saw you're adding Kristall to homebrew? That's great
2020-07-06 14:35:02 makeworld It'll have to be their GUI cask or tap or whatever though right?
2020-07-06 14:52:49 ⚡ xq has no idea about apple LOL
2020-07-06 14:53:12 @xq will see if the PR maker is helping me :D
2020-07-06 14:56:31 makeworld Hopefully heh
2020-07-06 14:56:48 makeworld I'm not on Apple either but I've always thought homebrew was cool
2020-07-06 14:58:23 @xq it's a kind of packet manager, right?
2020-07-06 14:58:32 @tomasino package manager, yes
2020-07-06 14:58:46 @tomasino less hacky than macports
2020-07-06 14:59:25 @xq ah
2020-07-06 14:59:47 @tomasino "the missing macOS package manager" i think was a tagline for a while
2020-07-06 15:01:04 @tomasino i used to do this when setting up my macbook for work... when i had a macbook for work -- https://github.com/jamestomasino/dotfiles/blob/master/install-osx.txt
2020-07-06 15:02:22 makeworld Ooh that looks nice
2020-07-06 15:02:27 makeworld Why .txt thoug haha
2020-07-06 15:03:02 makeworld xq: https://github.com/Homebrew/homebrew-cask
2020-07-06 15:03:10 makeworld This is what I was talking about cask
2020-07-06 15:03:28 makeworld You'll notice tomasin o's script has `brew cask` commands and stuff
2020-07-06 15:03:35 @xq ah nice
2020-07-06 15:03:45 makeworld My understanding is that it's installing the software from a special homebrew repo for GUI apps
2020-07-06 15:04:06 makeworld So you should probably do that for Kristall I think
2020-07-06 15:05:32 @tomasino that was a .sh for a while, but homebrew and osx changed so much that every time i tried to actually run it as a script it ended up blowing up. So i just copy & pasted blocks from it after a bit
2020-07-06 15:05:45 makeworld Ah ok
2020-07-06 15:05:53 @tomasino and brew cask got internalized at one point
2020-07-06 15:05:57 @tomasino not sure if that's used anymore
2020-07-06 15:06:03 @tomasino i've been out of the mac game for almost 2 years now
2020-07-06 15:14:25 @xq i hope i find some time to continue Kristall development in the next weeks
2020-07-06 15:14:29 @xq a lot to to right now
2020-07-06 15:14:38 @xq but i'm happy to see some small PRs being done <3
2020-07-06 15:15:33 @tomasino i'm happy to use it and feed your poor plant
2020-07-06 15:16:15 makeworld It probably doesn't apply, but how does kristall or any other browser stop loading?
2020-07-06 15:16:34 @tomasino antigravitons
2020-07-06 15:16:40 @xq oh no!
2020-07-06 15:16:43 @xq my plant! *screams
2020-07-06 15:16:53 @xq makeworld: i just click stop LOL
2020-07-06 15:16:53 @xq :D
2020-07-06 15:17:07 @xq but serious talk: i just close the socket connection and discard loaded data
2020-07-06 15:17:10 makeworld Right now in Amfora you can't really stop a page from being loaded, which is problematic if you want to load a different page instead or something
2020-07-06 15:17:15 makeworld Hmm
2020-07-06 15:17:35 makeworld Ok
2020-07-06 15:18:00 makeworld I think my code is just kinda nested around, and I need to figure that out
2020-07-06 15:18:09 @xq if you clicked a link in kristall and then click another one, i'll also stop loading the previous one
2020-07-06 15:18:32 makeworld Yeah I'd like to handle stuff like that
2020-07-06 15:18:53 makeworld Like right now if you start loading a link and go back in the history it's still loading the original one
2020-07-06 15:19:18 makeworld The temp solution is just to not allow going back when a link is loading, but obv that's not long term
2020-07-06 15:19:44 @tomasino traps!
2020-07-06 15:23:26 @xq It's a tarp!
2020-07-06 15:25:59 @tomasino it's magicarp!
2020-07-06 15:26:24 @tomasino https://www.deviantart.com/neosamus/art/Magikarp-50492952?q=boost%3Apopular+in%3Adigitalart+magikarp&qo=8
2020-07-06 15:28:14 makeworld Thanks for the help everyone ;)
2020-07-06 15:40:28 makeworld tanelorn.city is down
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2020-07-06 16:05:57 acdw so I did *not* get any bollux hacking done this weekend :/
2020-07-06 16:06:16 makeworld Aww
2020-07-06 16:06:24 makeworld There's always next weekend?
2020-07-06 16:09:39 acdw yeah that's true
2020-07-06 16:09:45 acdw or the evenings ... :P
2020-07-06 16:11:55 makeworld Yes those too :)
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2020-07-06 16:38:26 acdw haha
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2020-07-06 17:59:08 makeworld tomasino: Could you remind me again what that weather site you had was?
2020-07-06 17:59:12 makeworld Gopher and Gemini
2020-07-06 17:59:19 makeworld Just forget the domain
2020-07-06 18:00:13 makeworld Also wow does Jetforce make multi hosting and vhosting easy
2020-07-06 18:00:31 makeworld LIke if I have multiple applications, a static file server, on different domains, or paths, etc
2020-07-06 18:00:35 makeworld Very cool
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2020-07-06 18:34:15 @tomasino oh yeah?
2020-07-06 18:34:24 @tomasino i need to look into that for black to get it running right on tor
2020-07-06 19:18:41 makeworld Yeah it's quite cool
2020-07-06 19:18:47 makeworld https://github.com/michael-lazar/jetforce/blob/master/examples/vhost.py
2020-07-06 19:18:53 makeworld There's the simple vhost example
2020-07-06 19:20:40 @tomasino do i run that script instead of running jetforce?
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2020-07-06 19:29:50 makeworld Yeah
2020-07-06 19:30:31 makeworld Like you basically write however many jetforce apps you need, then you create a composite application that maps vhosts to applications
2020-07-06 19:30:33 makeworld And run that script
2020-07-06 19:32:38 @tomasino i'll have to work on that and then change my jetforce rc.d script on black
2020-07-06 19:36:31 @tomasino how do you tell it your key & cert?
2020-07-06 19:36:52 @tomasino --tls-certfile /etc/gemini/cert.pem --tls-keyfile /etc/gemini/key.pem --host 0.0.0.0 --hostname tilde.black --dir /var/gemini --port 1965
2020-07-06 19:36:58 @tomasino i was running jetforce with all this...
2020-07-06 19:37:33 makeworld Line 40 of the script I linked, with the certfile and keyfile args
2020-07-06 19:38:12 makeworld So: server = GeminiServer(app, certfile="/path/to/cert", keyfile="key.key")
2020-07-06 19:38:33 makeworld Be aware though: https://github.com/michael-lazar/jetforce#virtual-hosting
2020-07-06 19:38:50 makeworld You can't use different TLS certs for different domains
2020-07-06 19:39:10 makeworld "The suggested workaround is to use a single certificate with multiple subjectAltName attributes."
2020-07-06 19:39:20 makeworld So you'd have to create a new cert that supports both domains
2020-07-06 19:39:49 @tomasino oh, crapolla
2020-07-06 19:40:11 @tomasino ugh, this is tricky
2020-07-06 19:40:24 makeworld Yeah, the cert thing is annoying
2020-07-06 19:40:31 makeworld You can see this in action if you look at https://portal.mozz.us/gemini/mozz.us/?crt=1
2020-07-06 19:40:38 @tomasino i don't think i even made the inital cert. i think jettforce did
2020-07-06 19:40:41 makeworld And scroll down to X509v3 Subject Alternative Name
2020-07-06 19:40:42 @tomasino but i don't remember
2020-07-06 19:40:46 makeworld Uh oh
2020-07-06 19:41:00 makeworld That's only a temp cert I thought, like the Jetforce one goes away when the server shuts down
2020-07-06 19:41:21 @tomasino nah, it's something else hten
2020-07-06 19:41:25 @tomasino i've restarted this plenty
2020-07-06 19:41:35 @tomasino maybe it was instructions in the readme
2020-07-06 19:41:40 @tomasino not sure
2020-07-06 19:42:08 @tomasino i don't need multiple apps. I just need to serve the same document root under two hostnames. tilde.black, and the tor address
2020-07-06 19:42:10 @tomasino that's it
2020-07-06 19:43:00 makeworld Oh okay
2020-07-06 19:43:11 makeworld You'll still need to create a new cert that supports both addresses
2020-07-06 19:43:16 @tomasino yeah
2020-07-06 19:43:35 makeworld But it sounds like you just create one StaticFileServer, and then map two vhost domains to it
2020-07-06 19:43:42 makeworld I can write an example file if you want
2020-07-06 19:44:15 @tomasino i think i have that part... probably
2020-07-06 19:44:24 @tomasino i found the cert generation help part in the jetforce readme
2020-07-06 19:44:33 @tomasino now to figure out how to have mulitiple names
2020-07-06 19:45:04 makeworld Yeah, you'll have to search online about openssl I guess
2020-07-06 19:45:08 makeworld Don't know how to do that sorry
2020-07-06 19:45:38 @tomasino hehe
2020-07-06 19:45:44 @tomasino this is almost easy
2020-07-06 19:47:51 makeworld Ha
2020-07-06 19:48:24 @tomasino i think i found a way
2020-07-06 19:48:24 @tomasino maybe
2020-07-06 19:48:26 @tomasino we'll see
2020-07-06 19:49:40 @tomasino ugh, openbsd old ass openssl
2020-07-06 19:50:03 @tomasino doesn't support -addext
2020-07-06 19:50:16 @tomasino why did i do this on tilde.black
2020-07-06 19:53:07 @tomasino updating openssl
2020-07-06 19:53:10 @tomasino lets see if this blows up everything
2020-07-06 19:53:56 makeworld Good luck
2020-07-06 19:54:05 makeworld Lmk what the command is once you find one that works
2020-07-06 19:54:44 @tomasino https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/74345/provide-subjectaltname-to-openssl-directly-on-the-command-line
2020-07-06 19:54:51 @tomasino it's in here, but it's still being a dick
2020-07-06 19:55:06 @tomasino i installed 1.1.1 but i think openbsd is still seeing the old openssl
2020-07-06 19:56:59 makeworld Hmm
2020-07-06 19:57:24 ⚡ tomasino cries
2020-07-06 19:59:37 dctrud Isn't openssl in OpenBSD really libressl?
2020-07-06 19:59:59 dctrud ... and likely missing things :-/
2020-07-06 20:04:48 @tomasino yes
2020-07-06 20:04:56 @tomasino i did "something"
2020-07-06 20:05:00 @tomasino not sure how to test it yet
2020-07-06 20:06:35 dctrud heh... good luck :-) I have just been using acme-client or certbot to get certs with alt names and share them between http and jetforce
2020-07-06 20:07:23 dctrud the .py file I'm using to serve under multiple hostnames is up at: gemini://randomroad.net/
2020-07-06 20:07:41 dctrud Have 2 'apps' and one of those is serving under 3 hostnames
2020-07-06 20:07:55 @tomasino i had hella problems using certbot unless i want to run jetforce as root
2020-07-06 20:07:59 @tomasino can't see the keys otherwise
2020-07-06 20:08:15 dctrud yeah - you have to manually setup some group membership and mess with the dir perms
2020-07-06 20:08:39 dctrud I'm on NetBSD... might be harder on OpenBSD if it is more chrooted for acme-client etc. too
2020-07-06 20:09:59 @tomasino everything is harder
2020-07-06 20:09:59 @tomasino haha
2020-07-06 20:10:05 @tomasino i don't know openbsd at all
2020-07-06 20:10:10 @tomasino made tilde.black to learn it
2020-07-06 20:10:36 @tomasino and now i'm in a fun mixture of 1) openbsd 2) openssl 3) an unfamiliar python app
2020-07-06 20:10:45 @tomasino i know nothing, jon snow
2020-07-06 20:11:02 @tomasino i mean... i ran a script and it outputted keys, but i don't think they're right
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2020-07-06 20:12:06 @tomasino unable to load X509 request
2020-07-06 20:12:06 @tomasino 27066342865232:error:09FFF06C:PEM routines:CRYPTO_internal:no start line:/usr/src/lib/libcrypto/pem/pem_lib.c:694:Expecting: CERTIFICATE REQUEST
2020-07-06 20:12:09 @tomasino poop
2020-07-06 20:12:22 lukee hi fellow travellers
2020-07-06 20:13:04 acdw o/ lukee
2020-07-06 20:14:27 dctrud that generally occurs if you are trying to give something that wants a CSR a private key instead
2020-07-06 20:15:26 @tomasino ahha
2020-07-06 20:15:27 lukee trying to push for a new GemiNaut release - lots of small tasks - mostly documentation on the TBD list though
2020-07-06 20:16:08 @tomasino any idea how to check contents of a crt?
2020-07-06 20:16:31 @tomasino oh!
2020-07-06 20:16:34 @tomasino i think i got it
2020-07-06 20:16:38 @tomasino oooh oooh ooh
2020-07-06 20:16:39 acdw openssl s_client -connect host:port | openssl x509 -text
2020-07-06 20:16:40 acdw ?
2020-07-06 20:17:34 ine openssl s_client -showcerts -servername your.host.com -connect host:port | openssl x509 -noout
2020-07-06 20:18:01 ine omit -servername your.host.com if not using tls sni
2020-07-06 20:18:54 acdw I did not know about the -showcerts option, thanks ine
2020-07-06 20:19:39 @tomasino now what the hell
2020-07-06 20:19:47 @tomasino i changed my rc.d script but wheni ran it again it used the old one
2020-07-06 20:19:52 @tomasino grrrr openbsd
2020-07-06 20:20:43 lukee ine: based on your earlier feedback, I managed to update GemiNaut so the default theme makes its own identicons - no external references now
2020-07-06 20:21:05 makeworld Ay nice!
2020-07-06 20:21:08 @tomasino gonna punch rc.d in the face hole
2020-07-06 20:21:14 lukee and its faster (no tiny flash when it gets the image)
2020-07-06 20:23:33 acdw oh snap yall there's a wiki page on gemini
2020-07-06 20:24:12 acdw tomasino: I tried to use BSD once or twice but yeah ... I ran into many of the problesm it seems like you're facing
2020-07-06 20:24:33 @tomasino two now, i think, acdw
2020-07-06 20:24:37 @tomasino kensenatas and the new one
2020-07-06 20:25:51 acdw :O
2020-07-06 20:25:59 acdw I mean like a Wikipedia page
2020-07-06 20:26:07 acdw https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gemini_(protocol)
2020-07-06 20:26:16 lukee its been there for a couple of weeks I think
2020-07-06 20:26:21 acdw oh cool
2020-07-06 20:26:32 lukee created 26-Jun
2020-07-06 20:26:51 acdw that's one week
2020-07-06 20:27:02 @tomasino okay, i'm running the new cert
2020-07-06 20:27:02 acdw ish
2020-07-06 20:27:05 @tomasino on tilde.black
2020-07-06 20:27:09 lukee time flies when your having fun
2020-07-06 20:27:09 @tomasino it seems to work with my normal setup
2020-07-06 20:27:10 acdw fingers crossed tomasino!
2020-07-06 20:27:14 @tomasino now to try the fancy shit
2020-07-06 20:27:32 lukee your -> you're
2020-07-06 20:27:57 makeworld tomasino: I get conn refused on tilde.black
2020-07-06 20:28:08 @tomasino it's offline atm
2020-07-06 20:28:13 @tomasino i'm working on the vhost.py
2020-07-06 20:28:46 makeworld Ah ok
2020-07-06 20:28:51 ine lukee: nice!
2020-07-06 20:28:55 ine a welcome change
2020-07-06 20:29:10 lukee it was on the todo list, it just bubbled up a bit
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2020-07-06 20:30:08 ⚡ kensanata waves
2020-07-06 20:30:27 lukee hiya
2020-07-06 20:30:39 @tomasino okay, got it up
2020-07-06 20:30:41 @tomasino now to test tor
2020-07-06 20:31:02 @tomasino black6kfjetfuzaeozz7fs53whh7xtd4e27telrf5fg5kgdt5ah5plad.onion
2020-07-06 20:31:27 @tomasino i think it worked
2020-07-06 20:31:34 @tomasino av98 returned success after a hot minute
2020-07-06 20:31:39 @tomasino can anyone else confirm?
2020-07-06 20:32:00 @tomasino torify kristall works great, btw
2020-07-06 20:32:07 acdw https://portal.mozz.us/gemini/tilde.black/
2020-07-06 20:32:09 acdw is up
2020-07-06 20:32:17 acdw oh but tor -- idk
2020-07-06 20:32:23 acdw I honestly don't even really get tor tbh
2020-07-06 20:32:53 @tomasino https://ttm.sh/QYF.png
2020-07-06 20:32:58 @tomasino sweet jesus that was annoying
2020-07-06 20:33:06 @tomasino now i need to still figure out how to get it to run under rc.d
2020-07-06 20:33:33 @tomasino i guess i better write it up too
2020-07-06 20:33:34 @tomasino ugh!
2020-07-06 20:33:50 makeworld https://portal.mozz.us/gemini/tilde.black/?crt=1 looks good!
2020-07-06 20:34:34 @tomasino crap, my cert is only good for a month
2020-07-06 20:34:35 @tomasino hahah
2020-07-06 20:34:48 @tomasino gonna have to fix that
2020-07-06 20:35:27 kensanata Going online using bad wifi in the mountains teaches me a lot about unecessary timeouts.
2020-07-06 20:35:47 @tomasino black is back down for a min
2020-07-06 20:36:16 ▬▬▶ cyrus has joined #gemini
2020-07-06 20:36:27 @tomasino anyone remember the switch to tell openssl to expire in 5 years?
2020-07-06 20:36:28 @tomasino :D
2020-07-06 20:38:12 kensanata openssl req -new -x509 -days 365 -nodes -out cert.pem -keyout key.pem
2020-07-06 20:38:21 kensanata From one of my examples I have in some docs somewhere
2020-07-06 20:38:35 @tomasino -days 1825 it is
2020-07-06 20:39:25 @tomasino bam
2020-07-06 20:39:27 @tomasino that worked
2020-07-06 20:39:35 @tomasino okay, cert is good for 5 years
2020-07-06 20:39:36 @tomasino huzzah
2020-07-06 20:39:51 @tomasino now to get this stupid rc.d working
2020-07-06 20:39:51 makeworld Woohoo!
2020-07-06 20:39:57 makeworld I should really do that for makeworld.gq
2020-07-06 20:40:24 makeworld kensanata: What is -nodes ?
2020-07-06 20:40:58 kensanata No idea.
2020-07-06 20:41:11 kensanata If this option is specified then if a private key is created it will not be encrypted.
2020-07-06 20:41:22 lukee I think it is "no des"
2020-07-06 20:41:24 kensanata So, no passphrase, I guess?
2020-07-06 20:41:37 kensanata lukee: Ah, makes so much more sense.
2020-07-06 20:41:50 lukee it confused the hell out of me too
2020-07-06 20:42:11 makeworld Hmm
2020-07-06 20:42:24 lukee still does TBH
2020-07-06 20:42:25 @tomasino i have -nodes in there multiple times too
2020-07-06 20:42:27 @tomasino :D
2020-07-06 20:42:29 acdw should be -no-des tbh
2020-07-06 20:42:33 @tomasino no idea what anything does
2020-07-06 20:42:37 @tomasino ugh, i hate rc.d
2020-07-06 20:42:49 acdw ~install ubuntu~
2020-07-06 20:42:50 @tomasino starting a stupid python3 script and keeping it running is so annoying
2020-07-06 20:42:51 kensanata I'm going to try and stare at https://gist.github.com/xenogenesi/1b2137f769aa80b6c99d573071f5d086
2020-07-06 20:42:52 acdw ~install windows~
2020-07-06 20:43:03 lukee I rely on the commandline wizards to cook the spells, I just incant them
2020-07-06 20:43:11 acdw ~install the OS that Samsung Smart Fridges use~
2020-07-06 20:43:51 ine webos?
2020-07-06 20:44:23 dctrud the cheat way to avoid rc.d in openbsd is to add it to cron to run every minute, but with the `-s` flag so it runs one instance max...
2020-07-06 20:44:31 dctrud ... abuse of cron though :-)
2020-07-06 20:45:14 acdw oh that's beautiful/evil
2020-07-06 20:45:23 acdw ine: is that what the Smart Fridges use? I had no idea
2020-07-06 20:45:34 acdw ~install on Temple OS~
2020-07-06 20:45:42 lukee haha
2020-07-06 20:46:18 makeworld openssl x509 -in cert.pem -text
2020-07-06 20:46:24 lukee There totally should be a holyC gemini client
2020-07-06 20:46:30 makeworld tomasino: There's a good way to display a cert as text ^^
2020-07-06 20:46:38 @tomasino thanks
2020-07-06 20:46:39 acdw omg or a brainfuck client
2020-07-06 20:46:41 @tomasino i have the cert part working
2020-07-06 20:46:44 @tomasino and the jetforce part working
2020-07-06 20:46:50 @tomasino now it's openbsd's rc.d that's being the dick
2020-07-06 20:46:54 ⚡ acdw claps
2020-07-06 20:46:58 @tomasino i can run the service manually just fine
2020-07-06 20:47:07 acdw well how often do you reboot
2020-07-06 20:47:08 acdw ?
2020-07-06 20:47:14 makeworld kensanata: Your command uses RSA keys though >:(
2020-07-06 20:48:27 dctrud tomasino - does it just get stuck there, hanging when you start... or something else?
2020-07-06 20:50:09 @tomasino got it
2020-07-06 20:50:10 @tomasino yeesh
2020-07-06 20:50:33 @tomasino i'll write up the whole bloody thing in a journal post now
2020-07-06 20:50:46 @tomasino happy birthday to me!
2020-07-06 20:51:36 makeworld openssl req -new -x509 -newkey ec -pkeyopt ec_paramgen_curve:prime256v1 -days 1825 -nodes -out cert.pem -keyout key.pem
2020-07-06 20:51:56 makeworld kensanata and others, this will use an EC key which is smaller and more modern than RSA
2020-07-06 20:52:11 makeworld Solderpunk has mentioned this before I think, about reducing cert size
2020-07-06 20:52:15 kensanata Thakn!
2020-07-06 20:52:43 acdw hey tomasino! happy birthday!!
2020-07-06 20:52:50 makeworld Choosing what curve to use for the key is beyond me, but I just went with prime256v1 because it's what Let's Encrypt has generated for me in the past
2020-07-06 20:52:56 makeworld Yes happy birthday!
2020-07-06 20:53:01 acdw what even *are* curves lol
2020-07-06 20:53:33 @tomasino thanks acdw
2020-07-06 20:53:38 @tomasino and makeworld
2020-07-06 20:53:45 lukee 🎂
2020-07-06 20:53:53 dctrud happy birthday!
2020-07-06 20:54:15 dctrud openssl is definitely not a fun birthday activity
2020-07-06 20:55:00 makeworld Ha
2020-07-06 20:55:41 @tomasino maybe this thing i write will be useful to other
2020-07-06 20:55:42 makeworld acdw: complex crypto stuff, used by a certain type of asymmetric encryption
2020-07-06 20:55:56 kensanata this lousy wifi I'm on really makes me pay for TLS. gopher://mozz.us works no issues; gemini://mozz.us makes me cry.
2020-07-06 20:56:12 makeworld Like how RSA keys are based off of primes, elliptic curve keys are based off the mathematical properties of certain types of curves
2020-07-06 20:56:45 makeworld kensanata: Could it be the underlying server speed? I'm surprised TLS would make a big difference. But what do I know lol
2020-07-06 20:56:48 acdw tomasino: when I get around to hosting my site with like, digital ocean or something (so I can co-host on gemini, etc), it will *definitely* be useful :)
2020-07-06 20:57:24 acdw makeworld: that is absolutely buckwild. how do people come up with this?! Honestly I bet they have amazing parties
2020-07-06 20:57:32 kensanata makeworld: it's the initial connect, I think. I'm increasing the elpher timeout from 5s to 20s.
2020-07-06 20:58:20 makeworld Haha idk if their parties are thaat great
2020-07-06 20:58:23 makeworld But yeah it's crazy stuff
2020-07-06 20:58:44 makeworld tomasino: You used the accepted answer here? https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/74345/provide-subjectaltname-to-openssl-directly-on-the-command-line
2020-07-06 21:02:49 ⚡ kensanata awaits the next section in gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/docs/tls-tutorial.gmi
2020-07-06 21:03:59 makeworld Hmm yeah I should read all that
2020-07-06 21:04:48 kensanata Now I'm reading https://michaelheap.com/self-signed-ssl-client-certificates/
2020-07-06 21:10:54 @tomasino gemini://black6kfjetfuzaeozz7fs53whh7xtd4e27telrf5fg5kgdt5ah5plad.onion/users/fox/journal/20200706-gemini-on-tor.gmi
2020-07-06 21:11:10 @tomasino or gemini://tilde.black/users/fox/journal/20200706-gemini-on-tor.gmi
2020-07-06 21:11:34 @tomasino no makeworld ... openbsd openssl can't do -addtext
2020-07-06 21:11:37 @tomasino so i did the next answer down
2020-07-06 21:11:42 @tomasino but you can see all my code in the write-up now
2020-07-06 21:12:04 lukee or gemini://tilde.black/users/fox/journal/20200706-gemini-on-tor.gmi for everyone else not on onion yet!
2020-07-06 21:12:37 makeworld Oh ok great thanks!
2020-07-06 21:13:27 makeworld tomasino: Slight error in your post: it's not -addtext but -addext
2020-07-06 21:13:31 makeworld No "t"
2020-07-06 21:13:42 @tomasino ahh
2020-07-06 21:13:45 @tomasino i'll fix it
2020-07-06 21:13:50 @tomasino it didn't work when i copy & pasted it
2020-07-06 21:13:50 @tomasino :D
2020-07-06 21:14:31 makeworld Oh haha so maybe -addext does work on your system?!
2020-07-06 21:14:39 makeworld Or you mean when you copied it into your post
2020-07-06 21:16:56 @tomasino it didn't work when i copied the example from stack overflow
2020-07-06 21:17:00 makeworld Ah ok
2020-07-06 21:17:01 @tomasino i just typed it wrong in my post
2020-07-06 21:17:18 makeworld I'm tempted to create a wildcard cert for makeworld.gq
2020-07-06 21:18:33 makeworld I'm worried some clients won't like it, but it should be okay...
2020-07-06 21:22:26 makeworld That way I don't need to change the cert every time I want another gemini subdomain
2020-07-06 21:25:51 makeworld It looks I would need to set CN = *.makeworld.gq
2020-07-06 21:26:25 makeworld And then -addext "subjectAltName = DNS:makeworld.gq" so that the root domain can also be used
2020-07-06 21:27:44 makeworld Interesting stuff
2020-07-06 21:29:07 makeworld openssl req -new -subj "/C=CA/CN=*.makeworld.gq" -addext "subjectAltName = DNS:makeworld.gq" -x509 -newkey ec -pkeyopt ec_paramgen_curve:prime256v1 -days 1825 -nodes -out cert.pem -keyout key.pem
2020-07-06 21:29:14 makeworld It's a monster, but I think this did it!
2020-07-06 21:30:41 @tomasino yes, that sounds familiar
2020-07-06 21:31:29 kensanata has quit (The TLS connection was non-properly terminated.)
2020-07-06 21:33:40 makeworld Doesn't seem to work actually, let me investigate...
2020-07-06 21:34:01 makeworld The command runs but I'm doing some testing and a hostname like "test.makeworld.gq" isn't actually valid for that kind of cert
2020-07-06 21:37:35 makeworld Alright it turns out you need to have the wildcard asterisk in the SAN (subjectAltName)
2020-07-06 21:38:07 makeworld Idk if having the wildcard in the CN is good or not, I'm trying to find out
2020-07-06 21:52:30 lukee has quit (Client exited)
2020-07-06 21:53:19 makeworld Google seems to do it for plus.google.com, which is good enough for me
2020-07-06 21:59:19 ▬▬▶ lel has joined #gemini
2020-07-06 22:02:27 makeworld So this is the command I end up with:
2020-07-06 22:02:28 makeworld openssl req -new -subj "/C=CA/CN=*.makeworld.gq" -addext "subjectAltName = DNS:makeworld.gq, DNS:*.makeworld.gq" -x509 -newkey ec -pkeyopt ec_paramgen_curve:prime256v1 -days 1825 -nodes -out cert.pem -keyout key.pem
2020-07-06 22:02:53 makeworld tomasino: Maybe this is helpful? I guess not for your old openssl but maybe in general
2020-07-06 22:03:27 @tomasino share it with the world!
2020-07-06 22:03:28 @tomasino :D
2020-07-06 22:06:22 makeworld Aha I will :D
2020-07-06 22:06:28 makeworld Gonna write a post
2020-07-06 22:06:34 acdw aw yisss
2020-07-06 22:06:38 makeworld After I test it out in production on makeworld.gq!!
2020-07-06 22:06:48 acdw yall I am loving coming in here and gettin gall these links to read later
2020-07-06 22:06:52 makeworld :)
2020-07-06 22:08:32 acdw how does https feel about self-signed certs? will they have scary warnings in browsers?
2020-07-06 22:08:55 makeworld Yes
2020-07-06 22:09:00 makeworld 100%
2020-07-06 22:09:03 acdw :( that's too bad
2020-07-06 22:09:09 makeworld The best solution is to just use Let's Encrypt
2020-07-06 22:09:31 makeworld I mean it makes sense, because TOFU is not used. Otherwise anyone could just make their own cert and pretend to be any site
2020-07-06 22:10:45 ⚡ makeworld afk, eating dinner. Post incoming!
2020-07-06 22:12:27 acdw yeah that's what I'd do then
2020-07-06 22:12:34 acdw also yum dinner...i need some dinner
2020-07-06 22:12:38 acdw oh and that makes sense
2020-07-06 22:15:11 @tomasino minor update to my tor over gemini post
2020-07-06 22:15:18 @tomasino i forgot to mention that i set up tor
2020-07-06 22:16:05 acdw that might be a little important lol
2020-07-06 22:16:30 @tomasino i didn't really write up much of a howto
2020-07-06 22:16:33 @tomasino i kinda copped out
2020-07-06 22:16:37 @tomasino maybe i should write more
2020-07-06 22:16:43 @tomasino ugh, i guess i should
2020-07-06 22:16:58 acdw hey you do what you think you need to. it's okay if you don't spell it all the way out
2020-07-06 22:17:11 acdw if someone is trying to set up a tor site they probably know how to google stuff too
2020-07-06 22:17:24 acdw (or I guess duckduckgo or like, startpage, if they're setting up Tor)
2020-07-06 22:17:43 @tomasino i've written about it extensively on gopher already
2020-07-06 22:17:53 @tomasino i think that's why it bored me to think about writing it here
2020-07-06 22:17:59 acdw you could set up a gopher mirror!?!?!??
2020-07-06 22:18:02 acdw hehe
2020-07-06 22:18:15 acdw that's def less work than just copying and pasting or writing it again
2020-07-06 22:20:45 @tomasino :P
2020-07-06 22:20:55 @tomasino i could have linked to the article on gopher
2020-07-06 22:20:59 @tomasino that would have been easy
2020-07-06 22:21:18 @tomasino too late now, solderpunk boosted me on mastodon. it's been seen
2020-07-06 22:21:24 acdw ohyes! utilize Gemini's cross-whatever linking :)
2020-07-06 22:21:32 acdw 🤯
2020-07-06 22:23:45 @tomasino gopher://gopher.black/1/phlog/20180427-gopher-black-on-tor-part-1
2020-07-06 22:23:52 @tomasino there was a part 2 as well
2020-07-06 22:24:09 @tomasino and now with onion v3 there's a better program to generate onion addresses
2020-07-06 22:24:12 @tomasino but there ya go
2020-07-06 22:25:58 acdw > That's almost words!
2020-07-06 22:26:02 acdw That's hilariouss
2020-07-06 22:26:51 @tomasino :D
2020-07-06 22:27:46 @tomasino the port troubles doing tor over gopher don't exist with gemini
2020-07-06 22:27:55 @tomasino thanks to vhost support
2020-07-06 22:27:59 @tomasino so it's WAY easier
2020-07-06 22:28:04 acdw oh boy... falling into your gopherhole is giving me a lot more reading to do. I don't know if I'm going to find the actual part 2
2020-07-06 22:28:08 acdw oh that's good to know!!
2020-07-06 22:28:31 acdw I've never used Tor actually, it's a big mystery to me. I know the basics of like, the request bounces all over the place and it's slow
2020-07-06 22:28:33 acdw but that's it
2020-07-06 22:28:40 acdw I guess that's all there is to it really?
2020-07-06 22:28:51 @tomasino gopher://gopher.black/1/phlog/20180428-gopher-black-on-tor-part-2
2020-07-06 22:29:17 @tomasino it's mostly slow because it bounces all over the place before using an exit node to visit non-onion sites
2020-07-06 22:29:19 @tomasino BUT!!!!!
2020-07-06 22:29:32 @tomasino if you're staying within the onion landscape and visiting a .onion site, you don't need all the hops
2020-07-06 22:29:55 @tomasino the server can set up HiddenServiceSingleHopMode 1
2020-07-06 22:30:01 @tomasino which says, just use one hop to me. it's cool
2020-07-06 22:30:08 @tomasino and speeds things up tremendously
2020-07-06 22:30:13 @tomasino and you're still secure end-to-end
2020-07-06 22:30:34 @tomasino as long as you never leave .onion land, everything is roses
2020-07-06 22:32:30 acdw oh that's raad actually
2020-07-06 22:33:26 acdw do you know how the DNS works? Is it blockchain®?
2020-07-06 22:34:28 @tomasino distributed hash table
2020-07-06 22:34:38 @tomasino onion addresses are public keys
2020-07-06 22:34:50 acdw oh that's crazy
2020-07-06 22:34:54 acdw computers are insane
2020-07-06 22:35:05 @tomasino yep!
2020-07-06 22:35:06 acdw I love how people just figured that out
2020-07-06 22:35:16 @tomasino it's fairly ingenious
2020-07-06 22:35:18 acdw that's actually one thing I'm really liking about being involved iwth Gemini...
2020-07-06 22:35:34 acdw like, yall just got together and said, "Hey, let's start talking on this channel with these rules"
2020-07-06 22:35:37 acdw and then ya did
2020-07-06 22:35:45 acdw and here we all are..well not *here,* but you know
2020-07-06 22:36:10 @tomasino i'm definitely not here
2020-07-06 22:36:11 acdw oh wait...so the public key of the address is paired with the private key of the server?
2020-07-06 22:36:13 @tomasino i'm way over there
2020-07-06 22:36:19 acdw lolololo
2020-07-06 22:36:34 @tomasino the public key identity is served up to the distributed hash table by the tor server
2020-07-06 22:36:43 acdw :O
2020-07-06 22:36:50 @tomasino when someone wants to connect to it, that's a quickc lookup that maps back to a server
2020-07-06 22:36:58 @tomasino it's navigated to either dierctly or via several hops
2020-07-06 22:37:01 acdw holy. crap
2020-07-06 22:37:02 @tomasino https://community.torproject.org/onion-services/overview/
2020-07-06 22:37:12 @tomasino this is actually pretty accessible
2020-07-06 22:37:25 acdw right, like if my server doesn't have the address, it'll be like, "Look over there"
2020-07-06 22:37:30 acdw lol it's not accessible on my work network
2020-07-06 22:37:40 acdw I guess they don't want us on Tor for.......some reason?!
2020-07-06 22:38:01 @tomasino :P
2020-07-06 22:38:05 acdw I'll add it to my ever-growing list of Links to Read that I Might Not Read Anytime Soon
2020-07-06 22:38:09 acdw But they're There In Case I do
2020-07-06 22:38:21 acdw just realized...I should totally make a page dedicated to them
2020-07-06 22:38:44 @tomasino from this page: " in some sense IP addresses are not even meaningful to onion services: they are not even used in the protocol."
2020-07-06 22:39:03 acdw 🤯
2020-07-06 22:39:07 acdw wuuuuuuttt
2020-07-06 22:39:31 @tomasino if i could change one thing about gemini, it would have been to run it exclusively over tor
2020-07-06 22:39:41 @tomasino all the TLS stuff would be gone
2020-07-06 22:39:49 @tomasino and it would be even cooler
2020-07-06 22:40:02 @tomasino but then we wouldn't have badass client cert magic
2020-07-06 22:40:05 companion_cube and it'd be even slower? :D
2020-07-06 22:40:22 @tomasino if it were all running as onion services it would be nice and zippy
2020-07-06 22:40:28 @tomasino single hop mode
2020-07-06 22:40:43 acdw you should make a gemini-like protocol over tor called.....bunny
2020-07-06 22:40:54 @tomasino hehe
2020-07-06 22:40:58 acdw plus I do like the client cert stuff
2020-07-06 22:41:05 @tomasino do you have tor browser on your current machine?
2020-07-06 22:41:09 acdw nope
2020-07-06 22:41:24 @tomasino too bad. you could bust out of your silly office network without issues
2020-07-06 22:41:42 acdw haha that's assuming they don't have some kind of packet sniffer or something
2020-07-06 22:41:45 acdw no, they don't lol
2020-07-06 22:41:50 @tomasino "Is your network filtered and you can't open ports on your firewall? This could happen if you are in a university campus, an office, an airport, or pretty much anywhere. Onion services don't need open ports because they punch through NAT. They only establish outgoing connections."
2020-07-06 22:41:54 acdw our website doesn't even work if you don't use www.
2020-07-06 22:42:03 acdw :O
2020-07-06 22:42:11 acdw okay maybe I'll check it out .. :P
2020-07-06 22:42:15 @tomasino hehe
2020-07-06 22:42:26 @tomasino i seriously don't think tor gets nearly enough love for how awesome it is
2020-07-06 22:43:26 acdw okay you've convinced me. i'll install it this week on my personal laptop, then see if i can get a portable version
2020-07-06 22:43:34 acdw i'm 99% i can frmo like, portableapps.com
2020-07-06 22:43:59 acdw i have a good amoutn of experience using gvim portable at work, and kristall was able to run
2020-07-06 22:44:19 @tomasino there's always a bootable usb stick with tails
2020-07-06 22:45:15 acdw Oh I don't want to go that far ... I do need to do actual work at work as well :P
2020-07-06 22:45:20 makeworld I'm happy Gemini isn't over TOR
2020-07-06 22:45:42 makeworld Tor is cool, but it would make Gemini more complex and less portable
2020-07-06 22:45:52 @tomasino hehe
2020-07-06 22:45:54 makeworld Because you need to have a Tor daemon running
2020-07-06 22:46:06 @tomasino you would indeed, on the server
2020-07-06 22:47:16 makeworld But the client too
2020-07-06 22:47:22 makeworld Which is real issue in my opinion
2020-07-06 22:47:25 makeworld Right?
2020-07-06 22:48:28 @tomasino the client would need to run torified
2020-07-06 22:48:30 @tomasino yep
2020-07-06 22:49:07 @tomasino in the case of my tilde.black screenshot i ran: $ torify kristall
2020-07-06 22:49:10 @tomasino that's it
2020-07-06 22:50:22 acdw but if you want a really lightweight client, say on a phone, it'd be more complicated
2020-07-06 22:50:41 acdw since tor's its own thing, it's not like TLS which is basically everywhere due to the internet
2020-07-06 22:50:52 @tomasino yeah, it would have a wrapper layer
2020-07-06 22:50:55 @tomasino like orbot
2020-07-06 22:51:25 @tomasino i wonder if gus will spider on tor
2020-07-06 22:51:35 @tomasino natpen you listening? ....
2020-07-06 22:51:51 makeworld Ha
2020-07-06 22:52:02 makeworld She's not online, but who knows what she'll read
2020-07-06 22:52:04 makeworld oooOOo
2020-07-06 22:52:14 acdw i mean that'd be cool i think, but i'm not sure if askign users to install tor *and* a client is not too much
2020-07-06 22:52:21 acdw irc should have an /email command
2020-07-06 22:52:25 acdw to just /email someone
2020-07-06 22:52:27 @tomasino yeah, you'd want to bundle your clients with it
2020-07-06 22:52:32 acdw there's no way that'd be abused
2020-07-06 22:52:34 acdw hmmmmmmm
2020-07-06 22:52:37 @tomasino but we don't have that world, so ahh well
2020-07-06 22:52:47 @tomasino gemini is still super cool
2020-07-06 22:52:55 acdw be the change you want to see, tomasino. I'll build a bash bunny client
2020-07-06 22:53:00 acdw it'll be even worse than bollux
2020-07-06 22:53:02 @tomasino :D
2020-07-06 22:53:19 acdw i'll call it...... Peter Shottentail
2020-07-06 22:53:38 acdw b/c every shell-based project *must* have 'sh' or 'ba' in it
2020-07-06 22:53:41 acdw these are facts
2020-07-06 22:54:47 makeworld Ha
2020-07-06 22:55:05 cyrus I recently discovered gemini and I thought it was a really great idea to have that SSH kiosk (ssh kiosk@gemini.circumlunar.space) to try out a client remotely. Does anyone know how this was accomplished on the server-side to allow anyone to SSH into an account and be bound to a single program? (I get maybe setting the user's shell to your custom binary. But how did you allow
2020-07-06 22:55:07 cyrus passwordless+keyless SSH access?
2020-07-06 22:55:32 @tomasino hi cyrus!
2020-07-06 22:55:39 cyrus Hi!
2020-07-06 22:56:06 @tomasino um, yes
2020-07-06 22:56:32 @tomasino i'm trying to remember the exact syntax, but you can set up a rule so that anyone sshing in cannot execute any command or get a shell, but instead get piped directly into a program
2020-07-06 22:56:46 @tomasino i think i've got ssh mastery over there on the shelf somewhere and it goes into it
2020-07-06 22:56:51 @tomasino pretty sure that's what's going on there
2020-07-06 22:57:07 @tomasino as for doing it without a key or password, that's an option too, though rarely used for obvious reasons
2020-07-06 22:57:12 cyrus I've come across restrictedshell and whatnot.
2020-07-06 22:57:12 @tomasino but pretty rockin' isn't it?!
2020-07-06 22:57:21 cyrus It really is!
2020-07-06 22:57:27 cyrus I had no idea sshd could do that.
2020-07-06 22:57:36 @tomasino you just need to be careful that you can't get to a shell from inside the program itself
2020-07-06 22:57:40 @tomasino or it's a big security hole
2020-07-06 22:57:41 cyrus Right.
2020-07-06 22:57:54 @tomasino usually you want to chroot the account on top of limiting it to a single executable
2020-07-06 22:58:09 cyrus I'd probably opt for applying an apparmor profile.
2020-07-06 22:58:17 @tomasino :)
2020-07-06 22:58:19 acdw I bet you could email solderpunk too...
2020-07-06 22:58:30 acdw I'm assuming they set it up on circumlunar.space
2020-07-06 22:58:35 @tomasino yeah, i think he did
2020-07-06 22:58:39 acdw okay gotta go everyone, it's been rad
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2020-07-06 22:58:47 @tomasino and i believe he modelled it after bitreich's kiosk for gopher
2020-07-06 22:58:50 @tomasino ciao acdw
2020-07-06 23:01:59 cyrus Ah, SSH Mastery is written by Michael Lucas. You know that guy also writes geeky fiction?
2020-07-06 23:02:14 @tomasino he's an awesome dude
2020-07-06 23:02:17 @tomasino very active on the fediverse
2020-07-06 23:02:19 cyrus I read his mystery novel "git commit murder" which was actually a fun read.
2020-07-06 23:02:23 @tomasino i patreon support him
2020-07-06 23:02:31 @tomasino there's a sequel coming out to that soon
2020-07-06 23:02:37 cyrus Really!
2020-07-06 23:02:39 cyrus Interesting.
2020-07-06 23:02:40 @tomasino i think it's called git rebase murder, but not 100% sure
2020-07-06 23:02:45 cyrus Haha.
2020-07-06 23:03:03 @tomasino ed mastery, savaged by systemd, some real gems
2020-07-06 23:03:09 @tomasino i have his absolute openbsd too
2020-07-06 23:10:05 makeworld What's his fedi account?
2020-07-06 23:15:06 @tomasino @mwlucas@bsd.network
2020-07-06 23:15:50 styan tomasino: Yay, I can access gemini://tilde.black over Tor without proxying now!
2020-07-06 23:16:11 @tomasino yay!
2020-07-06 23:17:13 styan And localhost too!
2020-07-06 23:17:26 @tomasino hehe
2020-07-06 23:17:28 @tomasino YISS
2020-07-06 23:17:36 makeworld Thanks
2020-07-06 23:18:13 epoch_ if you don't mind using a non-onion domain that CNAMEs to an onion to do tor, you can get a certificate like https would want
2020-07-06 23:18:42 epoch_ like, onion.thebackupbox.net CNAME whatevermyonionis.onion
2020-07-06 23:18:53 epoch_ and the cert is valid for onion.thebackupbox.net
2020-07-06 23:19:05 epoch_ because when you verified it, it was pointing at an IP
2020-07-06 23:19:31 @tomasino seems interesting. what sort of benefit does that give you
2020-07-06 23:20:05 epoch_ me? not much. wouldn't be hard to find me.
2020-07-06 23:20:15 epoch_ but users could still use https to a hidden service
2020-07-06 23:20:17 epoch_ and be hidden from me
2020-07-06 23:20:31 @tomasino you don't need https if you're running an onion service, though
2020-07-06 23:20:38 epoch_ I know.
2020-07-06 23:20:50 epoch_ unless they were somehow using client certs?
2020-07-06 23:20:54 epoch_ maybe for gemini over tor?
2020-07-06 23:21:06 epoch_ but then you don't need https-like signed certs anyway
2020-07-06 23:21:09 @tomasino even then, there's no dns lookups happening at all
2020-07-06 23:21:18 epoch_ I dunno. PoC. don't have a plan for a use.
2020-07-06 23:21:18 @tomasino and everything's encrypted by tor already
2020-07-06 23:21:23 @tomasino :)
2020-07-06 23:21:25 @tomasino well, sounds neat!
2020-07-06 23:21:38 @tomasino tilde.black is running the new header thing to redirect to tor now
2020-07-06 23:21:53 @tomasino if you have the latest tor browser and go to https://tilde.black it'll auto-redirect you
2020-07-06 23:22:02 epoch_ I actually don't know if tor dnssec validates its responses before passing them over the tor network to requesters
2020-07-06 23:22:15 @tomasino it doesn't DNS at all
2020-07-06 23:22:15 epoch_ that might be something I need to look into
2020-07-06 23:22:23 @tomasino it's a pubkey hashtable distributed thing
2020-07-06 23:22:29 @tomasino with introducers
2020-07-06 23:22:39 epoch_ it totally does /some/ DNS stuff.
2020-07-06 23:22:41 epoch_ not for .onion
2020-07-06 23:22:44 @tomasino not for onion
2020-07-06 23:22:50 @tomasino for non onion, yes, https away
2020-07-06 23:22:52 epoch_ like, if I did tor-resolve some.site
2020-07-06 23:23:03 makeworld gemini://makeworld.gq/gemlog/2020-07-06-openssl.gmi
2020-07-06 23:23:03 epoch_ or used the DNSPort option
2020-07-06 23:23:09 makeworld OpenSSL commands post posted!
2020-07-06 23:23:13 @tomasino yay!
2020-07-06 23:23:16 @tomasino thanks makeworld
2020-07-06 23:23:41 epoch_ the initial lookup of what onion to use would be using the non-onion DNS lookup through tor
2020-07-06 23:24:00 epoch_ the CNAME at onion.some.site to my.onion
2020-07-06 23:24:42 epoch_ so, it would be https over onion, but it wouldn't be a .onion in the URL
2020-07-06 23:25:00 makeworld tomasino: You're welcome! Hope this helps some people
2020-07-06 23:25:35 styan epoch_: So, using the DNS system to provide more memorable onion addresses, assuming that the service side of the hidden-service is not actually hidden.
2020-07-06 23:25:35 epoch_ https://onion.thebackupbox.net/
2020-07-06 23:25:46 epoch_ yeah.
2020-07-06 23:26:04 ⚡ makeworld afk, see y'all later
2020-07-06 23:26:10 @tomasino the newest tor version is testing a more memorable dns-esque thing for onions
2020-07-06 23:26:18 @tomasino i read about it in passing, but i don't think it's open to all yet
2020-07-06 23:27:53 epoch_ bah. disk filled up..
2020-07-06 23:27:54 @tomasino i can't find it now
2020-07-06 23:27:58 styan Neat! Every time I hear about the technology side of Tor it always feels cool and shiny. :-)
2020-07-06 23:28:16 @tomasino it was in the same announcement that led me to the header thing
2020-07-06 23:29:10 @tomasino oh you know what, it's NOT doing it on black because httpd sucks ass and i need relayd
2020-07-06 23:29:15 @tomasino i did it on cosmic.voyage
2020-07-06 23:29:19 @tomasino cause nginx is easy and sane
2020-07-06 23:29:52 @tomasino add_header Onion-Location http://cosmiclbou7ypgww4lcs4an3z6otqoevqk6q5jcxml7v7geqml7dlyad.onion$request_uri;
2020-07-06 23:29:55 @tomasino and done
2020-07-06 23:31:15 epoch_ btw, gemini://onion.thebackupbox.net/ works too
2020-07-06 23:31:34 epoch_ or you can use the onion directly if you don't want to use the CNAME :)
2020-07-06 23:31:35 @tomasino timed out
2020-07-06 23:31:40 epoch_ oh piss
2020-07-06 23:31:52 epoch_ then I think I probably have a hack on my end :/
2020-07-06 23:32:00 epoch_ it worked here (tm)
2020-07-06 23:32:05 @tomasino ahhh
2020-07-06 23:32:11 styan tomasino: You *can* install www/nginx if you need something more complicated than httpd. :-)
2020-07-06 23:32:31 @tomasino yeah, i probably will, sadly
2020-07-06 23:32:50 @tomasino i wanted to learn "the openbsd way"
2020-07-06 23:33:06 @tomasino but the openbsd way is to be an experienced sysadmin and not need basic guides to shit
2020-07-06 23:33:26 @tomasino i miss ubuntu. :(
2020-07-06 23:33:37 styan That is the "openbsd way" though, httpd is explicitly not meant to cover every use-case.
2020-07-06 23:33:40 @tomasino i do stuff on cosmic in seconds and then bang my head against it on black
2020-07-06 23:34:03 @tomasino yeah, httpd is, sadly, not good enough
2020-07-06 23:34:22 @tomasino when i found out you couldn't customize the 404 page without recompiling httpd, that was a big red flag
2020-07-06 23:34:37 @tomasino or the fact that it's in comic sans, cause someone thought that was funny
2020-07-06 23:34:46 styan The reasoning for not covering every use-case is that you can always install apache or nginx if you need it.
2020-07-06 23:34:51 @tomasino and comic sans isn't installed on openbsd so they don't see it anyway
2020-07-06 23:35:06 epoch_ weird that it works here. maybe it requires a weird set to work right. :/
2020-07-06 23:38:02 styan epoch_: tor-resolve here: https://ttm.sh/QY0.net
2020-07-06 23:43:47 epoch_ guess tor-resolve needs a patch
2020-07-06 23:44:03 epoch_ I'm using a transparent proxy, so that might be why it works here
2020-07-06 23:44:27 epoch_ (yes, I read the warnings about transparent proxies)
2020-07-06 23:45:15 epoch_ $ dig +short onion.thebackupbox.net
2020-07-06 23:45:15 epoch_ fgc2df7jssqt7adacvhinvwdjmn4gwfp6fqxczxunw4qtb37554yexyd.onion.
2020-07-06 23:45:16 epoch_ 100.114.135.61
2020-07-06 23:45:41 epoch_ (that IP is the range I'm using for IP-mapped domains)
2020-07-06 23:45:55 epoch_ (yes, it is CGNAT)
2020-07-06 23:45:56 styan tor-browser also times-out for me, probably for similar reasons.
2020-07-06 23:46:02 epoch_ well piss
2020-07-06 23:50:24 styan tomasino: You are right! I do not see comic-sans anywhere, I wonder what they add to get it in their presentations then?
2020-07-06 23:59:19 prisonpotato does ~team cgi not allow file access?
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2020-07-07 00:01:28 gambit do any of the gemini servers support WSGI?
2020-07-07 00:02:32 prisonpotato is that what its called?
2020-07-07 00:03:25 gambit yes...https://www.fullstackpython.com/wsgi-servers.html
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2020-07-07 00:05:01 prisonpotato it does support cgi tho
2020-07-07 00:05:05 prisonpotato whats the difference
2020-07-07 00:06:14 ⚡ epoch_ requests account on torproject's gitlab
2020-07-07 00:07:10 gambit WSGI is used with python frameworks (django, flask)....that is all I know
2020-07-07 00:07:18 prisonpotato huh
2020-07-07 00:07:18 gambit I typically use uWSGI
2020-07-07 00:07:28 prisonpotato Im using gemini tho
2020-07-07 00:07:33 gambit https://uwsgi-docs.readthedocs.io/en/latest/
2020-07-07 00:07:40 prisonpotato and perl6 instead of python
2020-07-07 00:08:36 gambit I was just wondering if there was a way currently to build a flask app the servers up a gemini page
2020-07-07 00:09:24 gambit but seems like the gemini server doesn't have support for it....I saw one gemini server that was written in python, perhaps I could take a stab at forking it and adding WSGI support.
2020-07-07 00:09:29 prisonpotato i dont think so because flask is a web framework
2020-07-07 00:10:04 prisonpotato I have a cgi script that isn't working
2020-07-07 00:10:43 gambit ah, I suppose they are too different then
2020-07-07 00:10:55 makeworld prisonpotato: What are you trying to do? WSGI shouldn't factor into your CGI script at all I think
2020-07-07 00:10:59 gambit would have to build a gemini python framework from the ground up
2020-07-07 00:11:16 gambit makeworld, I think there are 2 convos happening
2020-07-07 00:11:22 makeworld o.O whoops
2020-07-07 00:11:34 gambit WSGI is separate from the CGI issue.
2020-07-07 00:11:40 prisonpotato makeworld: trying to write a cgi script to generate a blog listing
2020-07-07 00:12:00 prisonpotato does it need to be in cgi-bin?
2020-07-07 00:12:19 makeworld Depends what server you're using
2020-07-07 00:12:54 makeworld Where is your stuff hosted, what server is being used? Is it yours or do you just have an account?
2020-07-07 00:14:13 prisonpotato its on ~team's public_gemini
2020-07-07 00:15:02 makeworld Ah so tilde.team/~prisonpotato/
2020-07-07 00:15:07 prisonpotato yes
2020-07-07 00:16:04 makeworld Well when I click the gemlog thing I get a "CGI Error"
2020-07-07 00:16:09 prisonpotato yes
2020-07-07 00:16:14 prisonpotato thats the problem
2020-07-07 00:16:27 prisonpotato it works when i ./ it from the command line
2020-07-07 00:16:28 makeworld Which indicates that the CGI capability of the server is fine, it's that your script is incorrect or broken somehow
2020-07-07 00:16:51 makeworld Maybe it is not ending with a 0 status code?
2020-07-07 00:17:12 makeworld Try running this after running the script from the command line: echo $?
2020-07-07 00:17:53 prisonpotato it looks like the problem is that it isn't in the cgi-bin directory
2020-07-07 00:17:53 makeworld Sorry if I
2020-07-07 00:18:05 prisonpotato it's running fine
2020-07-07 00:18:08 prisonpotato $? is 0
2020-07-07 00:18:26 makeworld Hmm
2020-07-07 00:18:46 makeworld And it's printing the correct status code and stuff
2020-07-07 00:18:49 prisonpotato yup
2020-07-07 00:18:54 makeworld WIth \r\n ending?
2020-07-07 00:18:58 prisonpotato yes
2020-07-07 00:19:08 prisonpotato and I copied it to cgi-bin and it's working
2020-07-07 00:19:11 makeworld Could be the folder then, idk how it works on tilde.team
2020-07-07 00:19:14 makeworld Ohh okay lol
2020-07-07 00:19:18 makeworld Sounds good then! Ha
2020-07-07 00:19:28 makeworld Welcome to Gemini
2020-07-07 00:19:38 prisonpotato But how can I get it to work in my gemlog/ directory
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2020-07-07 00:31:27 makeworld Oh hmm
2020-07-07 00:31:36 makeworld Sorry I didn't realize that was your issue there
2020-07-07 00:31:56 makeworld You likely can't. I would talk to tilde.team admins and ask about that, it depends on the server
2020-07-07 00:32:47 makeworld Gtg now, good luck
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2020-07-07 10:02:22 @tomasino there we go. now tilde.black has a lovely tor link on the main page
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2020-07-07 15:57:25 ~tiwesdaeg so... should I create a 5 year cert for all my server?
2020-07-07 15:57:42 ~tiwesdaeg I've been using certbot because it's pretty easy
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2020-07-07 16:26:17 @julienxx makeworld: thanks for your latest post, very useful!
2020-07-07 16:26:39 acdw yeah makeworld has been awesome lately
2020-07-07 16:32:36 makeworld Aww thanks guys!
2020-07-07 16:32:40 makeworld Glad it's helpful
2020-07-07 16:32:56 makeworld tiwesdaeg: That's what I would suggest yeah, and it seems solderpunk agrees
2020-07-07 16:33:25 makeworld I'm waiting until my current Let's Encrypt cert expires on Aug. 30
2020-07-07 16:33:32 makeworld And then I'm switching over
2020-07-07 16:34:29 makeworld I don't know what your setup looks like, but I made sure to copy my current certs to a different location, because otherwise certbot would update the cert but put it in the same place, and when I restart Jetforce it would change the cert prematurely
2020-07-07 16:37:08 ~tiwesdaeg I'll still be using let's encrypt for some https on some of my servers
2020-07-07 16:37:25 ~tiwesdaeg I'll just create a new cert elsewhere
2020-07-07 16:39:09 makeworld Yeah I'm not saying move the cert location
2020-07-07 16:39:46 makeworld I mean if you want to do what I'm doing, where I use my current cert until it expires, it's *maybe* good to copy the current cert you're using. But I have no idea what your setup is, just sharing what I did
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2020-07-07 17:36:59 @ben i'm just using my certbot certs
2020-07-07 17:37:08 @ben never had a reason to _not_
2020-07-07 17:37:22 @ben i've got a renewal hook to copy it over and fix permissions/ownership
2020-07-07 17:38:47 makeworld The reason we've been talking about on the mailing list is that switching to 5 year certs will decrease errant TOFU warnings
2020-07-07 17:39:19 @ben tofu is yummy
2020-07-07 17:39:25 @ben i haven't been following the list closely
2020-07-07 17:39:28 @ben but my certs are valid
2020-07-07 17:39:52 makeworld Yeah it's not really about them being valid or not. Just that they will change much more often
2020-07-07 17:40:21 makeworld Which can result in more TOFU warnings, or more potential opportunities for an MITM when they expire
2020-07-07 17:40:37 @ben how would that mitm?
2020-07-07 17:41:21 makeworld Like when a cert expires, [some] clients will accept new ones, so someone could MITM silently
2020-07-07 17:42:05 @ben uhh
2020-07-07 17:42:22 @ben that would have to be a dns attack too then?
2020-07-07 17:42:46 makeworld Oh yeah or someone at the ISP level. It's not super realistic, just a potential attack vector
2020-07-07 17:42:57 makeworld They'd have to be able to intercept and change the user's traffic
2020-07-07 17:43:03 @ben guess so
2020-07-07 17:43:19 @ben not really in my threat profile but ok
2020-07-07 17:43:38 @ben plus i have no idea how to make a cert that's not certbot
2020-07-07 17:43:47 @ben so just going with what i know here
2020-07-07 17:44:04 makeworld The point is just that the less often certs change, the less TOFU warnings might pop up if you change your cert early. So browsers and users can be more sure that something fishy is going on when there is a TOFU warning. In the current Geminispace, users will just click past a TOFU warning every time, because they happen relatively often
2020-07-07 17:44:22 @ben huh
2020-07-07 17:44:27 makeworld Yeah it's not a threat profile most people have to deal with, just preventative
2020-07-07 17:44:49 makeworld I actually wrote a quick post yesterday with the command for generating a Gemini-approved cert (TM)!
2020-07-07 17:45:00 makeworld gemini://makeworld.gq/gemlog/2020-07-06-openssl.gmi
2020-07-07 17:45:29 makeworld Takes like 20 secs to change to your domain and run it
2020-07-07 17:45:29 ⚡ ben read
2020-07-07 18:21:22 ~tiwesdaeg makeworld: what about those of us running multiple domains from one server
2020-07-07 18:21:55 ~tiwesdaeg how do you add another openssl string
2020-07-07 18:23:11 makeworld tiwesdaeg: What specifically are you trying to do? Run multiple domain off one cert?
2020-07-07 18:23:29 ~tiwesdaeg no issues with let's encrypt to do so
2020-07-07 18:23:45 ~tiwesdaeg -subj "/CN=example.com"
2020-07-07 18:23:49 ~tiwesdaeg this section
2020-07-07 18:24:11 makeworld Yeah that will only work for example.com. But you want a single cert that also works for example2.com?
2020-07-07 18:24:13 ~tiwesdaeg would you just add another like -subj "/CN=example2.com"?
2020-07-07 18:24:16 makeworld No
2020-07-07 18:24:22 ~tiwesdaeg hmmm
2020-07-07 18:24:28 makeworld I know how though, one sec
2020-07-07 18:24:43 makeworld Maybe I'll just add another example to my post, how's that?
2020-07-07 18:24:44 ~tiwesdaeg gemserv does support multiple certs
2020-07-07 18:24:53 ~tiwesdaeg I was just trying to simplify my life
2020-07-07 18:25:05 makeworld In general multiple certs is the best way to go. But I'll add an example
2020-07-07 18:25:11 ~tiwesdaeg ok, thanks
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2020-07-07 18:30:14 makeworld tiwesdaeg: Added to the bottom
2020-07-07 18:30:33 makeworld Pretty easy to do, you need to have OpenSSL 1.1.1 at least though
2020-07-07 18:31:15 @tomasino tor!
2020-07-07 18:32:52 makeworld Ah yes, this is what you did with tilde.black, I see that now
2020-07-07 18:44:39 ~tiwesdaeg well, there's one 5 year cert down
2020-07-07 18:44:52 makeworld Ta-da! Happy to help
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2020-07-07 18:45:15 ~tiwesdaeg I've been running gemserv, but have been having stability issues
2020-07-07 18:45:37 makeworld Oh in what way? I don't have experience with it
2020-07-07 18:45:40 ~tiwesdaeg so I installed molly-brown and configured it with the new certs
2020-07-07 18:45:49 ~tiwesdaeg it just sort of stops serving
2020-07-07 18:46:13 ~tiwesdaeg also, the redirects for no tailing '/' break after a while
2020-07-07 18:46:36 ~tiwesdaeg I think it's the only server that does multiple vhosts though
2020-07-07 18:47:09 makeworld Jetforce does
2020-07-07 18:47:24 makeworld That's very strange though, that it just degrades over time
2020-07-07 18:48:04 makeworld For jetforce you have to write one tiny file for vhosts, you can't do it from the command line. But it works very well
2020-07-07 18:48:15 makeworld tomasin-o just did it
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2020-07-07 19:08:12 @tomasino i heard that like ruf-ee-ooooh
2020-07-07 19:08:14 @tomasino hook style
2020-07-07 19:08:58 acdw now i am vibing to your nick tomasino
2020-07-07 19:09:09 @tomasino :D
2020-07-07 19:09:15 @tomasino thank you 4 lettered person
2020-07-07 19:09:21 acdw :D
2020-07-07 19:09:33 acdw you're welcome .. 8 .. lettered perseon?
2020-07-07 19:09:48 @tomasino it was the perfect length for a username for years
2020-07-07 19:09:56 @tomasino until grad school when they gave me jtomasin
2020-07-07 19:10:03 @tomasino like, seriously
2020-07-07 19:10:21 acdw oh shoot yeah, most have to be 8 letters!!
2020-07-07 19:10:39 @tomasino that's how ben became benharri, i believe
2020-07-07 19:10:48 acdw I actually have acdw b/c I was going to use my initials (acd) but 3 letters was too few for whatever I was first acdw for
2020-07-07 19:10:57 acdw oh that's funny
2020-07-07 19:11:08 @tomasino i figured it was a mashup of ac/dc and darkwing duck
2020-07-07 19:11:12 acdw my emails in school were jtm611 and acd224, respectively
2020-07-07 19:11:21 acdw obviously the sam system but it does NOT make snese
2020-07-07 19:12:09 @ben lol yep that's exactly how it happened
2020-07-07 19:12:15 @ben bharris and beharris must've already been used
2020-07-07 19:12:17 acdw that's great
2020-07-07 19:12:35 acdw now I'm just thinkinga bout better usernames for myself
2020-07-07 19:12:49 @tomasino i used a few before settling on my last name
2020-07-07 19:12:58 @tomasino sangue in the early bbs times. also jester, though it was taken a lot
2020-07-07 19:13:00 @tomasino then apex
2020-07-07 19:13:03 @tomasino and then aloneone
2020-07-07 19:13:07 @tomasino and now tomasino
2020-07-07 19:13:10 acdw ha nice
2020-07-07 19:13:21 acdw I was mahatman2 in the verrrrry early days of my time online
2020-07-07 19:13:31 acdw back when I was on the CrunchBang LInux forua
2020-07-07 19:13:35 @tomasino nice!
2020-07-07 19:13:41 ⚡ yeti . o O ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfvLcozLwtE )
2020-07-07 19:13:51 @tomasino haha
2020-07-07 19:13:51 @tomasino yes
2020-07-07 19:13:53 @ben i kinda like just using my firstname
2020-07-07 19:13:59 @tomasino it's a power move, ben
2020-07-07 19:14:01 @ben benharri when it's in use
2020-07-07 19:14:03 @tomasino love it
2020-07-07 19:14:05 @ben lol
2020-07-07 19:14:12 acdw yeti: lolol omg
2020-07-07 19:14:17 @tomasino though... there's my business card
2020-07-07 19:14:22 @ben > TOMASINO
2020-07-07 19:14:52 acdw ~she likes me for me / not BEcause my nick is tomasino~
2020-07-07 19:16:23 ~tiwesdaeg tomasino: are you running vhosts on black or cosmic?
2020-07-07 19:16:43 @tomasino https://pixfed.com/p/jamestomasino/186195965127036928
2020-07-07 19:17:56 acdw ... the perfect card
2020-07-07 19:18:04 makeworld Anything on the back?
2020-07-07 19:18:07 makeworld Lol
2020-07-07 19:18:09 @tomasino nothing
2020-07-07 19:18:22 @tomasino 12pt garamond, raised ink, double border
2020-07-07 19:18:23 acdw ohthat's great
2020-07-07 19:18:27 acdw cream paper
2020-07-07 19:18:40 acdw wyere'd you order from, if you remember?
2020-07-07 19:18:45 @tomasino local print shop
2020-07-07 19:18:51 acdw noice
2020-07-07 19:18:56 @tomasino this was before there were online business card places
2020-07-07 19:18:57 @tomasino :)
2020-07-07 19:19:12 acdw hey the non-online ones still exist; i actually worked for one for about a year
2020-07-07 19:19:18 makeworld This is reminding of the pyscho business card scene lol
2020-07-07 19:19:38 makeworld https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cISYzA36-ZY
2020-07-07 19:20:04 acdw yesssss
2020-07-07 19:21:45 @tomasino that whole movie is so ... that movie
2020-07-07 19:22:55 acdw o.m.g. I just realized that GUS is named for Gus Grissom (capsule communicator for Gemini 4)
2020-07-07 19:23:06 acdw tomasino: yes it very much is -- still better than the book tho
2020-07-07 19:23:29 @tomasino going deep for gemini references
2020-07-07 19:24:05 acdw yesss
2020-07-07 19:24:31 acdw I was actually looking it up to suggest another name for glog/gemlog/nilog/minilog/... on Masto
2020-07-07 19:24:40 @tomasino geminids
2020-07-07 19:24:48 @tomasino like the meteor shower
2020-07-07 19:24:53 acdw oh that's good
2020-07-07 19:28:54 makeworld Hoping to create a GUS stats graph soon
2020-07-07 19:29:34 acdw awesome
2020-07-07 19:33:07 makeworld It will probably just be a Python script that parses gemini://gus.guru/statistics/historical/overall and feeds it into gnuplot
2020-07-07 19:33:12 makeworld Now no one steal it!
2020-07-07 19:33:15 makeworld Lol
2020-07-07 19:33:24 acdw haha
2020-07-07 19:33:30 ⚡ tomasino steals it
2020-07-07 19:33:39 ⚡ tomasino dusts it off, shines it really nice, then returns it
2020-07-07 19:34:14 acdw :O
2020-07-07 19:35:38 makeworld Grrr
2020-07-07 19:36:04 acdw oh lord we're about to ahve a face off here
2020-07-07 19:36:29 ⚡ acdw hides behind the thing
2020-07-07 19:39:50 makeworld Well he returned, it so I can't be too mad
2020-07-07 19:40:22 ⚡ acdw peeks out from behind the thing
2020-07-07 19:40:52 acdw sorry i'm in a weird mood. i *need* to hack on bollux today
2020-07-07 19:40:55 acdw but not sure i will
2020-07-07 19:41:02 @tomasino you need to?
2020-07-07 19:41:04 makeworld Ha all good! Why not though?
2020-07-07 19:41:06 acdw TLS has a block n my mind
2020-07-07 19:41:18 makeworld Oh are you working on adding TOFU?
2020-07-07 19:41:28 acdw oh yes. that's the thing on my list
2020-07-07 19:41:37 acdw I'm going to refer strongly to your posts :)
2020-07-07 19:42:04 makeworld :))
2020-07-07 19:42:15 makeworld Happy I've written useful stuff
2020-07-07 19:42:45 acdw me too!
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2020-07-07 20:07:21 lukee hi folks
2020-07-07 20:07:38 lukee phew - just wrapped up the final details of a new GemiNaut release
2020-07-07 20:07:47 lukee gemini://gemini.marmaladefoo.com/blog/7-Jul-2020_GemiNaut_v0_8_6_release.gmi
2020-07-07 20:08:15 @tomasino yay!
2020-07-07 20:08:17 @tomasino grats
2020-07-07 20:09:42 makeworld Nice! It's cool to see the notes in a Gemini post
2020-07-07 20:09:59 makeworld One error though, it's actually gemget v1.3.0 lukee, not 0.1.3
2020-07-07 20:10:34 lukee urgh sorry - will fix the blog post, but the email has gone
2020-07-07 20:11:08 lukee fixed - I knew there was a 1 a 3 and a 0
2020-07-07 20:12:23 makeworld Haha all good
2020-07-07 20:12:28 lukee I'll have a stern word with the tech docs dept for next time
2020-07-07 20:12:37 makeworld 😆
2020-07-07 20:12:48 makeworld Are you the CTO then?
2020-07-07 20:13:02 lukee and the janitor
2020-07-07 20:13:19 makeworld Oh also, I'm refactoring Amfora and realized: "561 additions and 385 deletions" o.o
2020-07-07 20:13:22 makeworld Ha ofc!
2020-07-07 20:14:01 lukee does Github tell you those stats?
2020-07-07 20:14:58 makeworld Yeah, when I compare the branch to master
2020-07-07 20:15:06 makeworld But also it says that for each commit and stuff
2020-07-07 20:15:20 makeworld But that's just part of git actually, Github just puts HTML around it
2020-07-07 20:15:37 ⚡ lukee should get to know git better
2020-07-07 20:16:00 makeworld Always a good idea!
2020-07-07 20:16:21 makeworld At least learn how to use branches nicely, even mostly using Github's interface
2020-07-07 20:16:42 makeworld Although for a solo dev it's not as useful as I thought it would be lol
2020-07-07 20:16:50 makeworld I just create a new branch and then just work there
2020-07-07 20:16:59 ⚡ lukee digs out his Hg to Git incantation cheat sheet
2020-07-07 20:17:39 makeworld Oho
2020-07-07 20:17:50 lukee its nice to use a branch for speculative stuff
2020-07-07 20:17:57 makeworld Yeah that's true
2020-07-07 20:18:17 lukee My weird workflow involves using Hg on my local machine, then git to sync to Github
2020-07-07 20:18:23 makeworld O.o
2020-07-07 20:18:49 lukee it works for me!
2020-07-07 20:19:37 lukee %dayjob% uses Hg for lots of projects
2020-07-07 20:20:14 lukee what's coming next in amfora?
2020-07-07 20:22:38 makeworld We'll have to see lol. I got a bunch of issues lined up. The major feature will probably be downloading. Maybe search in pages, but that looks annoying
2020-07-07 20:22:55 makeworld The refactor won't affect users much, at most it gets rid of a lot of race conditions
2020-07-07 20:23:22 makeworld All the v1.3.0 issues: https://github.com/makeworld-the-better-one/amfora/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+milestone%3Av1.3.0
2020-07-07 20:23:49 makeworld Ah wait one sec: https://github.com/makeworld-the-better-one/amfora/issues?q=is%3Aissue+milestone%3Av1.3.0+
2020-07-07 20:23:55 @ben lukee: i opened an issue on geminaut to add support for the back and forward mouse buttons
2020-07-07 20:24:02 makeworld There, the second link includes closed issues
2020-07-07 20:24:36 makeworld You can also check the CHANGELOG.md file, that's always clearest
2020-07-07 20:24:44 lukee sounds like you're having fun with text wrapping
2020-07-07 20:24:59 makeworld Ha yes
2020-07-07 20:25:23 lukee ben: thanks for that - what is the common convention for this?
2020-07-07 20:25:27 makeworld Idk how often people will do this, but this release allows you to change your terminal size and have the page rewrap to the new size right away
2020-07-07 20:25:38 lukee there is a specific button on your mouse for back and forwards
2020-07-07 20:25:48 ⚡ lukee has his small mind blown
2020-07-07 20:25:51 @ben lukee: I'm expecting it to behave the same as in a web browser or windows explorer
2020-07-07 20:26:53 lukee I've never seen that in action, but I can investigate. What kind of mouse does this?
2020-07-07 20:28:07 @ben any mouse that has the buttons on the side above where your thumb goes
2020-07-07 20:28:40 @ben lol https://github.com/flutter/flutter/issues/56919
2020-07-07 20:28:51 @ben this came up in the google images results
2020-07-07 20:30:58 lukee looks like it might be possible: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/6371477/how-to-use-back-forward-navigation-button-events-in-wpf-webbrowser
2020-07-07 20:31:47 @ben nice
2020-07-07 20:31:50 lukee I added that to the issue
2020-07-07 20:32:22 @ben cool, thanks for considering
2020-07-07 20:32:35 @ben i use those buttons all the time
2020-07-07 20:32:36 lukee involves hooking a low level windows message, which pulling up the hood and rumaging around a bit
2020-07-07 20:33:16 lukee I've got some other events to start catching like Ctrl+R for reload
2020-07-07 20:33:59 @ben also re: https://github.com/LukeEmmet/GemiNaut/issues/4 - you might want to look into using .net core 3.1
2020-07-07 20:34:18 @ben not sure how well wpf stuff works on linux et al but it will supposedly work once .net 5 comes out
2020-07-07 20:34:40 lukee that would be nice if it is possible
2020-07-07 20:35:25 lukee the heavy lifting of the pretty display is done using mshtml (MS system html rendering library), I'm not sure if that is ever going to be cross platform though
2020-07-07 20:36:07 lukee makeworld: before i forget I have a minor bug for amfora to report
2020-07-07 20:36:25 lukee I dont know if you've seen it before
2020-07-07 20:36:59 lukee say I have a URL on the clipboard I've copied from an email or elsewhere. If I try to paste it into the address bar, often the content gets truncated
2020-07-07 20:39:45 lukee For example if I paste in the URL gemini://gemini.marmaladefoo.com/blog/7-Jul-2020_GemiNaut_v0_8_6_release.gmi
2020-07-07 20:40:07 lukee I get a shortened version thus: https://imgur.com/a/41375XM
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2020-07-07 20:41:55 makeworld Hmm
2020-07-07 20:42:04 makeworld Does it get truncated after you click enter, or before?
2020-07-07 20:42:46 makeworld But yeah I haven't seen that before, and I paste URLs in all the time
2020-07-07 20:43:54 lukee I put my cursor in the bar, use right click which should paste it
2020-07-07 20:44:07 lukee but the full url doesnt go into the buffer.
2020-07-07 20:44:24 lukee pasting gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/capcom/
2020-07-07 20:44:32 lukee I get gemini://geminom/
2020-07-07 20:45:01 lukee It seems the front and end of the string survived
2020-07-07 20:45:02 makeworld Hmm that's very weridd
2020-07-07 20:45:10 makeworld Happening before you click enter, right?
2020-07-07 20:45:15 lukee yes
2020-07-07 20:45:36 makeworld Does it still occur when you use Ctrl-Shift-V, or whatever Windows Terminal paste is?
2020-07-07 20:46:57 lukee I just tried again with the capcom URL using the terminal window menu which has an Edit->Paste entry
2020-07-07 20:47:00 ⚡ makeworld afk for a bit, feel free to keep explaining
2020-07-07 20:47:18 lukee this time it became: gemini://gemini.ccumlunar.sp
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2020-07-07 20:47:39 makeworld I suspect this is an upstream bug with my TUI library, or a Windows bug
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2020-07-07 20:47:55 lukee normally this works on Windows
2020-07-07 20:48:03 lukee so could be TUI lib
2020-07-07 20:49:02 lukee I'll create an issue in your repo
2020-07-07 20:53:33 lukee issue created.
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2020-07-07 21:10:49 makeworld Alright thanks. I don't have high hopes for it getting fixed I'm afraid, but I'll look into it further. Let me know there if you see any diferent behaviour with future releases
2020-07-07 21:14:30 lukee will do
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2020-07-08 08:46:51 user hi! read about gemini a few times in the past and now, the other day, installed a couple of browsers (asuka and castor, as they showed up in the testing repo of alpinelinux), then read a few threads on the list
2020-07-08 08:47:11 ℹ user is now known as omni
2020-07-08 08:49:18 omni pretty excited!
2020-07-08 08:49:23 tadzik cool, welcome :)
2020-07-08 08:50:07 omni I could swear I stumbled upon an android client but now I can't seem to find it
2020-07-08 08:50:36 tadzik there's one but only for google play I think
2020-07-08 08:51:13 omni oh, I wanted to find a repo and tell the f-droid folks
2020-07-08 08:58:48 omni there's a client for sailfishOS https://git.sr.ht/~fabrixxm/alrisha
2020-07-08 09:08:00 tadzik oh sweet
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2020-07-08 18:58:28 makeworld Adding a bunch of features to gemget today
2020-07-08 19:15:29 makeworld Nice break from Amfora ;)
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2020-07-08 19:25:35 lukee hi all
2020-07-08 19:25:48 lukee makeworld: thanks for the updates earlier
2020-07-08 19:26:09 makeworld Hey, you're welcome! Using Info strings is fine?
2020-07-08 19:26:12 lukee I managed to build it and am testing the new flags
2020-07-08 19:26:18 makeworld I figured it made sense that way bc that's the expected behaviour
2020-07-08 19:26:19 makeworld Oh ok
2020-07-08 19:27:05 lukee I just need to be able to definitively determine the download got abandoned and not successful
2020-07-08 19:27:23 makeworld You're welcome to use it as of that commit! I'm working on reading URLs from a file and maybe even parallel downloading, to include all that in the next release today or tomorrow
2020-07-08 19:27:31 makeworld Yeah, the Info strings should work fine for that
2020-07-08 19:27:54 lukee I ran it on the commandline and so far so good
2020-07-08 19:28:08 lukee however if it abandoned hte download, it cannot seem to delete the partial file
2020-07-08 19:28:19 lukee Error: Tried to remove konpeito-03-a.mp3 (from URL gemini://konpeito.media/konpeito-03-a.mp3) because the download timed out, but encountered this error: remove konpeito-03-a.mp3: The process cannot access the file because it is being used by another process.
2020-07-08 19:28:39 lukee I think maybe it needs to release a file handle before trying to delete it maybe?
2020-07-08 19:29:38 lukee same for -t and -m options
2020-07-08 19:32:11 makeworld Hmm
2020-07-08 19:32:18 makeworld That doesn't happen on my computer
2020-07-08 19:32:23 makeworld What was the command?
2020-07-08 19:32:34 makeworld And can you verify that the file is still on the disk?
2020-07-08 19:32:42 lukee gemget --header -t 1 gemini://konpeito.media/konpeito-03-a.mp3
2020-07-08 19:32:47 lukee yes it is
2020-07-08 19:33:31 makeworld That's strange... it deletes fine over here
2020-07-08 19:33:36 makeworld Maybe there's a race condition?
2020-07-08 19:33:40 makeworld I'll look into it
2020-07-08 19:34:02 lukee I will do some more testing and let you know
2020-07-08 19:34:14 lukee I havent tested from inside GemiNaut calling gemget yet
2020-07-08 19:34:31 makeworld Yeah but that's a bug either way I think
2020-07-08 19:35:32 lukee do you need to close the io writer?
2020-07-08 19:35:52 lukee or release it some how maybe
2020-07-08 19:36:37 makeworld You shouldn't need to
2020-07-08 19:37:02 makeworld It can't be closed actually, all it can do is write
2020-07-08 19:37:12 makeworld Hmm maybe I'll close the file though
2020-07-08 19:38:02 makeworld Try going from the latest commit, and adding f.Close() just under line 88
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2020-07-08 19:39:21 makeworld Thanks for doing my Windows testing :) Let me know if that works
2020-07-08 19:39:50 ⚡ kensanata reads about file locking...
2020-07-08 19:42:22 lukee there is some discrepancy between the latest version in github and the one I have - I'll get a fresh copy
2020-07-08 19:43:25 lukee I think I had the one from an hour ago not the latest.
2020-07-08 19:43:34 lukee I'll do some more tests and let you know
2020-07-08 19:44:47 makeworld Latest commit is cd27f5c220fdb4d1bcd5b34df1c0ce402ef16c82
2020-07-08 19:45:08 makeworld But I still think adding the f.Close() thing is the right idea, it's stupid of me not to put it
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2020-07-08 19:45:33 lukee yes but your line 88 is not the same as mine until I get the update!
2020-07-08 19:45:45 makeworld Ah yes
2020-07-08 19:46:27 makeworld Actually it's line 23
2020-07-08 19:46:42 makeworld Oh but that won't work hmm
2020-07-08 19:47:33 makeworld Alright put the f.Close() under line 108, creating a new line 109. And then run the same command with a timeout
2020-07-08 19:47:43 makeworld Sorry if this is confusing lol
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2020-07-08 19:49:36 lukee of network.go?
2020-07-08 19:49:53 makeworld Yes
2020-07-08 19:50:29 lukee just to confirm this is what I see
2020-07-08 19:50:34 lukee 108: if err != nil {
2020-07-08 19:50:45 lukee 109: handleIOErr(err, resp, written, savePath, u.String())
2020-07-08 19:50:59 lukee so add f.Close() before 109?
2020-07-08 19:51:19 makeworld YEs
2020-07-08 19:51:23 makeworld *Yes
2020-07-08 19:51:45 lukee ok stand by
2020-07-08 19:52:04 makeworld 🧍♂️
2020-07-08 19:52:52 @tomasino closing connections is for quitters
2020-07-08 19:52:55 @tomasino ;)
2020-07-08 19:53:19 lukee Wahey it worked!
2020-07-08 19:53:28 makeworld Yes!!
2020-07-08 19:53:35 @tomasino working++
2020-07-08 19:53:55 lukee I'll try -m
2020-07-08 19:54:01 makeworld Alright, there needs to be more of those sprinkled into the code. I will do that after I finish with #9
2020-07-08 19:54:16 makeworld No -m will fail I'm pretty sure, and I know why, it's the same issue
2020-07-08 19:54:30 lukee yes it does, I guess the fix is similar?
2020-07-08 19:54:37 makeworld If you don't mind waiting, just let me add them in after I'm done with #9
2020-07-08 19:54:39 makeworld Yeah
2020-07-08 19:55:02 lukee ok no problem
2020-07-08 19:55:36 makeworld Sounds good!
2020-07-08 19:55:47 lukee one v small thing - the help string for the -m option suggests you have a space before the number and the unit
2020-07-08 19:56:15 lukee but the space causes a problem. So instead of "2 MB" it has to be "2MB"
2020-07-08 19:57:43 lukee before -> between
2020-07-08 19:59:06 makeworld Not if you quote it
2020-07-08 19:59:28 makeworld That's a command line thing, like you have to quote args with spaces
2020-07-08 19:59:34 makeworld But I will remove the space from some examples
2020-07-08 20:00:05 lukee oh ok
2020-07-08 20:00:13 makeworld And add quotes to the space exmaples
2020-07-08 20:00:26 ⚡ lukee doesnt use the commandline as much as makeworld
2020-07-08 20:00:54 makeworld I don't blame you, being on Windows ;)
2020-07-08 20:01:37 lukee actually MS pushed out a service/feature pack today and there is a shiny new Windows Terminal app in the appstore
2020-07-08 20:01:55 lukee it has tabs and everything
2020-07-08 20:02:40 lukee (but I still get the same problem with Amfora reported before about copy/paste)
2020-07-08 20:02:44 makeworld Ooh
2020-07-08 20:02:46 makeworld Oh damn
2020-07-08 20:02:57 makeworld Do the colours work better though? It looks so ugly on Windows lol
2020-07-08 20:03:23 lukee can you send a screenshot of what it ought to look like?
2020-07-08 20:03:55 makeworld You can see the colours on the GIF on the README
2020-07-08 20:04:11 makeworld https://raw.githubusercontent.com/makeworld-the-better-one/amfora/master/demo-large.gif
2020-07-08 20:06:58 lukee this is what it looks like
2020-07-08 20:06:59 lukee https://imgur.com/a/M8R8IcZ
2020-07-08 20:07:13 lukee looks quite nice, for a command line app ;)
2020-07-08 20:07:51 lukee I think definitely nicer than before, but that could be my imagination
2020-07-08 20:08:06 lukee Windows Terminal is supposed to support UTF-8 better
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2020-07-08 20:14:56 makeworld Thanks haha
2020-07-08 20:15:04 makeworld Yeah it maybe looks better?
2020-07-08 20:15:17 makeworld Last I remember the purple for non-gemini links wasn't showing up properly
2020-07-08 20:15:49 ⚡ makeworld afk for a while, don't burn the house down
2020-07-08 20:16:21 lukee it is paler blue for non-gemini and intense blue for gemini
2020-07-08 20:22:58 lukee I'll catch up with you all some other time, I've got some other stuff to do for now
2020-07-08 20:23:02 lukee byee
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2020-07-08 20:24:44 @tomasino gemini://tilde.black/users/fox/journal/20200708-black-on-samizdat.gmi
2020-07-08 20:27:25 @tomasino is xq on vacation?
2020-07-08 20:27:34 @tomasino i've been watering his plant the last few days
2020-07-08 20:41:29 @tomasino oh shit, mozz has the chatroom using streams!
2020-07-08 20:45:25 @tomasino xq is there a pattern to match 2 urls for a cert in the manager? It doesn't seem to do regex (...|...)
2020-07-08 20:47:59 @tomasino eh, nm.. i just made another cert. derp
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2020-07-08 21:15:10 kensanata Those placemarker icons look fancy!
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2020-07-08 21:40:58 makeworld tomasino: Nice post! Samizdat is an interesting project, I saw it on fedi recently probably from you ;)
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2020-07-08 21:45:36 thewetcrab OK so I have just found the best thing ever for old internet fans.
2020-07-08 21:45:36 thewetcrab http://theoldnet.com/
2020-07-08 21:45:36 thewetcrab I'm currently browsing old websites of local universities and it's amazing to see what they looked like in the 90's and 00's
2020-07-08 21:46:11 thewetcrab I love on how all these 90s websites that I am looking at, everything is just a text link with no visual clutter.
2020-07-08 21:46:11 thewetcrab It's almost like we have gone backwards now. That we have to make everything flashy and over produced!
2020-07-08 21:46:11 thewetcrab I'm noticing something else interesting about the old web, at the bottom of pages is links to other useful websites and external resources. It's not just about keeping you on the website you are browsing for as long as possible, but it about providing useful and relevant information.
2020-07-08 21:51:42 makeworld Wow what a great site! Thanks, bookmarked
2020-07-08 21:52:11 makeworld I wonder what it uses in the backend, maybe the internet archive?
2020-07-08 21:59:47 thewetcrab yes backend is wayback machine / internet archieve api
2020-07-08 22:00:12 thewetcrab glad I was able to share something interesting with you makeworld :)
2020-07-08 22:01:10 makeworld Oh nice
2020-07-08 22:01:15 makeworld For sure! :D
2020-07-08 22:07:20 thewetcrab Do you make your own websites?
2020-07-08 22:07:33 thewetcrab With you being in here I imagine you have a gemini or gopher site?
2020-07-08 22:13:17 makeworld Yeah, I have makeworld.gq on the Web and gemini
2020-07-08 22:13:22 makeworld More content on Gemini though
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2020-07-08 22:35:38 @tomasino gemini is so lovely
2020-07-08 22:35:46 @tomasino i was diving deep into kensanata's wiki earlier
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2020-07-09 00:09:18 @tomasino mozz's reply to my gemini on tor post is great. I was able to clean up my scripts a lot and have a working venv
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2020-07-09 01:30:49 makeworld Yeah I was happy to see his reply, code looks nice
2020-07-09 01:30:57 makeworld Very helpful
2020-07-09 01:31:31 makeworld Idk how messed up your python envs are but I find this very useful for projects tomasino: https://python-poetry.org/
2020-07-09 01:31:44 makeworld It's the best env manager for Python afaik
2020-07-09 01:31:46 makeworld GUS uses it
2020-07-09 01:32:14 ⚡ makeworld afk, out and about
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2020-07-09 05:26:07 kayw so i might be writing a client in Nim in the forseeable future
2020-07-09 05:26:22 kayw this is a definiate maybe
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2020-07-09 06:42:57 jan hi!
2020-07-09 06:45:15 jan could someone please try to access gemini://jan.bio? I made some changes to the certificate (now letsencrypt), but I'm not sure if it worked
2020-07-09 07:00:48 ine doesn't a cert change mean clients reject the connection?
2020-07-09 07:10:58 jan originally i had selfsigned certificates, but kristall gives a warning. so i changed to letsencrypt, which i also use on https://jan.bio
2020-07-09 07:11:07 jan but maybe this was a bad idea
2020-07-09 07:19:58 ine gemini strikes me as more of a "your own space on the net" which makes me think the entire thing should be yours, so personally i would use self signed certs over third party ones
2020-07-09 07:20:27 ine i tried gemini://jan.bio and it works fine on geminaut!
2020-07-09 07:28:15 jan thanks!
2020-07-09 07:28:56 jan does anybody know how GUS handles changes of certificates?
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2020-07-09 08:10:27 @tomasino thanks makeworld
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2020-07-09 08:26:16 omni ah, there was the android client https://framagit.org/waweic/gemini-client
2020-07-09 08:27:46 omni found it on gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/software/ that is more up to date, I guess, than https://gemini.circumlunar.space/clients.html
2020-07-09 08:30:56 @tomasino yeah
2020-07-09 08:31:02 @tomasino poor web info gets outdated
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2020-07-09 09:27:06 @julienxx hi!
2020-07-09 09:27:35 @tomasino yo!
2020-07-09 09:27:36 @julienxx tomasino: I get connection issues on tilde.black since yesterday, might be on my side though
2020-07-09 09:29:44 @julienxx same on port 70
2020-07-09 09:33:14 @tomasino oh?
2020-07-09 09:33:22 @tomasino i have been doing lots of things to it
2020-07-09 09:33:24 @tomasino one sec
2020-07-09 09:33:35 @tomasino hrm, gemini seems working at the moment
2020-07-09 09:33:47 @tomasino and gopher
2020-07-09 09:33:57 @julienxx ok so it's my internet :)
2020-07-09 09:33:59 @tomasino web is up/down. I'm working on some tor stuff
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2020-07-09 12:41:43 grok Good afternoon.
2020-07-09 12:47:49 @tomasino yo
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2020-07-09 14:40:17 makeworld jan: Kristall should not care if you cert is self-signed....
2020-07-09 14:40:29 makeworld In fact self-signed certs are encouraged on Gemini!
2020-07-09 14:44:23 tildebeast1 hum. when you've created ~/public_gemini, what kind of file to populate it with? .md by default, or...?
2020-07-09 14:45:07 makeworld .gmi
2020-07-09 14:45:15 makeworld .gemini also works
2020-07-09 14:45:22 makeworld Gemini has its own syntax
2020-07-09 14:45:22 tildebeast1 hoo boy. guess I'd better learn the new format :)
2020-07-09 14:45:31 makeworld Very very simple, don't worry
2020-07-09 14:45:54 tildebeast1 heh. thanks, makeworld!
2020-07-09 14:46:05 makeworld gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/docs/gemtext.gmi
2020-07-09 14:46:10 makeworld There's an intro
2020-07-09 14:46:27 makeworld And here's a cheatsheet: gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/docs/cheatsheet.gmi
2020-07-09 14:46:54 makeworld No hardwrapping! That's probably the biggest change lol. Each paragraph should be on *one* line
2020-07-09 14:46:58 tildebeast1 brilliant. thanks!
2020-07-09 14:47:41 tildebeast1 looks remarkably similar to a certain authoring format :)
2020-07-09 14:47:43 makeworld There's also md2gemini which I wrote. I write most stuff in gmi, but if I want to publish to the web as well I write it in markdown and convert it with that
2020-07-09 14:48:14 tildebeast1 is that installed on team?
2020-07-09 14:48:34 makeworld Probably not?
2020-07-09 14:48:40 tildebeast1 ah, ok
2020-07-09 14:48:46 makeworld Idk what you guys are able to do, you just need to install it with pip
2020-07-09 14:48:57 tildebeast1 ok ok, pip isn't a problem :)
2020-07-09 14:49:14 makeworld If you do end up using it, lmk if you find any bugs!
2020-07-09 14:49:15 makeworld https://github.com/makeworld-the-better-one/md2gemini
2020-07-09 14:49:23 tildebeast1 unless I screw up the pip installs between user and system again :D
2020-07-09 14:49:55 makeworld Oh yeah those are the worst
2020-07-09 14:50:00 makeworld I just always use --user
2020-07-09 14:50:41 tildebeast1 same here these days!
2020-07-09 14:52:22 makeworld I've also found Python Poetry for when projects get complex https://python-poetry.org/
2020-07-09 14:52:27 makeworld It's pretty great it seems
2020-07-09 14:53:28 companion_cube a solution is to just avoid python altogether… I tend to do that
2020-07-09 14:58:01 makeworld One of these days Python will get ya
2020-07-09 14:59:26 companion_cube i actually liked it circa 2008
2020-07-09 14:59:44 companion_cube but since then I came to dislike both the language and the deployment stories
2020-07-09 15:03:17 makeworld Gemget v1.4.0 released! Binaries uploading now
2020-07-09 15:03:27 makeworld Oh yeah?
2020-07-09 15:04:10 companion_cube seems like the language i rant the most about 😅
2020-07-09 15:04:39 companion_cube it's slow, ill typed, not *that* expressive, not that simple… and a pain to deploy because you can't just get one binary :p
2020-07-09 15:05:20 makeworld Yeah, I get all that for sure. Having done a lot of Go stuff now the deployment and lack of typing annoy me
2020-07-09 15:05:34 makeworld But I still find it expressive and nice for quicker stuff
2020-07-09 15:05:52 companion_cube for one-file personal scripts, sure
2020-07-09 15:05:57 companion_cube for production things, I'm not a fan :p
2020-07-09 15:06:18 makeworld Meh it depends how it's done
2020-07-09 15:06:57 makeworld Jetforce is written professionally and done well, with typing hints and everything. The end result is that hackers can take advantage of Python and through together an app that uses Jetforce very fast
2020-07-09 15:07:44 companion_cube yes, zulip is another python thing I like (and they use mypy extensively it seems)
2020-07-09 15:07:59 companion_cube it just seems a bit late to the party, compared to JS :)
2020-07-09 15:08:27 makeworld Zulip... the team chat?
2020-07-09 15:08:45 makeworld Now that is something that my not be best for Python
2020-07-09 15:08:48 makeworld Lol
2020-07-09 15:08:58 companion_cube it's all in django I think?
2020-07-09 15:09:12 companion_cube https://blog.zulip.com/2016/10/13/static-types-in-python-oh-mypy/
2020-07-09 15:09:53 tildebeast1 the only other language i've tinkered with lately is nim. which was interesting enough in its way
2020-07-09 15:10:50 companion_cube nim is super interesting
2020-07-09 15:11:06 companion_cube it fixes about everything I dislike in python, I think, except for being really mature :D
2020-07-09 15:34:44 makeworld I mean you can use zips to pkg Python things somewhat nicely, I forgot about that
2020-07-09 15:35:16 makeworld It still relies on having the interpreter installed, but it isolates all the deps
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2020-07-09 15:44:38 companion_cube does the python path handle that nicely? :)
2020-07-09 15:44:49 companion_cube if python had the equivalent of .jar files that'd be nice
2020-07-09 15:45:15 companion_cube as in, `python foo.pyjar` or whatever
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2020-07-09 15:56:16 @tomasino yarp
2020-07-09 15:57:53 makeworld companion_cube: Yeah pretty much
2020-07-09 15:59:04 companion_cube well one can never have too many ways of packaging stuff
2020-07-09 15:59:17 companion_cube at least that's what python people think, since they still have nothing standard ?!
2020-07-09 15:59:28 makeworld Basically you put all the Python files and the project deps into one zip, then add a shebang to the beginning of it. Then Python will run the zip
2020-07-09 15:59:37 makeworld Something like that, anyway
2020-07-09 15:59:52 companion_cube wait, can it does that currently?
2020-07-09 15:59:55 makeworld Yes
2020-07-09 16:00:22 makeworld Look up zip app or something?
2020-07-09 16:01:57 companion_cube hu, interesting
2020-07-09 16:02:05 companion_cube new in 3.5, ok
2020-07-09 16:03:54 makeworld It could do it as far back as Python 2
2020-07-09 16:04:30 makeworld stackoverflow.com/a/3763360
2020-07-09 16:04:50 makeworld zipapp is just the new Python tool for managing this process
2020-07-09 16:05:32 companion_cube I guess the problem is that a lot of python code relies on C extensions, anyway, so you'd have to package these (or the .so)
2020-07-09 16:06:22 acdw whaaa that is so wild
2020-07-09 16:06:28 acdw I kind of love abusing zips
2020-07-09 16:07:42 companion_cube I mean it's already what java does with .jar
2020-07-09 16:07:53 makeworld Yeah C stuff would be harder
2020-07-09 16:07:53 companion_cube but it's nice that python has that for pure python programs
2020-07-09 16:07:58 makeworld Yeah it's pretty cool
2020-07-09 16:11:48 acdw oh I didn't know that about java, that IS cool
2020-07-09 16:12:05 companion_cube a .jar is a .zip with a bunch of .class files
2020-07-09 16:12:10 companion_cube (and sometimes the sources, as well)
2020-07-09 16:17:13 makeworld I kinda wish .tar.gz became the standard instead of zips, but oh well
2020-07-09 16:17:36 companion_cube tar.zst please
2020-07-09 16:17:56 makeworld Ha yeah that too, but I understand why that didn't become the standard, it wasn't around
2020-07-09 16:18:32 companion_cube I guess .zip files are the most universally understood format
2020-07-09 16:18:41 companion_cube .tar files are not that common on windows, for example, afaik
2020-07-09 16:21:06 makeworld Yeah
2020-07-09 16:21:19 acdw .tar.zip.gz.bz2
2020-07-09 16:21:58 companion_cube zstd, however, is just super good, it's impressive
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2020-07-09 16:28:02 login zst?
2020-07-09 16:28:22 makeworld Yeah, it's a new compression format from Google, quickly gaining adoption
2020-07-09 16:28:25 login .rar gang?
2020-07-09 16:28:31 makeworld Facebook, my bad
2020-07-09 16:28:38 makeworld zstandard is its full name
2020-07-09 16:28:45 makeworld https://facebook.github.io/zstd/
2020-07-09 16:28:49 login when released?
2020-07-09 16:28:54 makeworld https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zstandard
2020-07-09 16:29:02 makeworld Jan 2015
2020-07-09 16:29:08 makeworld That was the first release, anyway
2020-07-09 16:29:22 makeworld Free software as of Aug 2016
2020-07-09 16:30:11 companion_cube it's now used on archlinux for packages
2020-07-09 16:30:16 companion_cube and it's impressively fast
2020-07-09 16:30:59 makeworld Yes, it increased decompression time on Arch by 1300%
2020-07-09 16:31:05 makeworld That's not at typo
2020-07-09 16:31:20 companion_cube compression is also super fast, and much better than gzip
2020-07-09 16:31:36 m68k whoa
2020-07-09 16:34:25 kensanata I was toying around with gzip, bzip2 and xz for Gemini Wiki data download and opted for .tar.gz – I don't think people are going to use it often and if they do it's going to be important for them not to struggle with the installation of extra libraries.
2020-07-09 16:34:55 kensanata But yeah, at one point I read a comparison of those three and the Facebook code and it seemed pretty impressive!
2020-07-09 16:45:31 makeworld .tar.gz is fine. I think it's great you have the download at all
2020-07-09 16:49:19 omni I just cago built ncgopher in termux, nice!
2020-07-09 16:50:00 companion_cube .tar.gz is perfectly fine for downloading stuff
2020-07-09 16:50:14 companion_cube zstd is more bleeding edge, is just very nice for personal use (or in distros)
2020-07-09 16:52:02 makeworld I see it as nice for wide deployments where the client env. is somewhat controlled
2020-07-09 16:52:05 kensanata has quit (Ping timeout: 120 seconds)
2020-07-09 16:52:14 makeworld Like if your videogame downloads updates for itself
2020-07-09 16:53:24 companion_cube yeah, whenever you have reasonable control over both ends :)
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2020-07-09 16:55:23 kensanata The only thing that's left on my Gemini Wiki todo list seems to be those pesky client certificates.
2020-07-09 16:56:02 kensanata Then I can restrict editing of certain wikis to known client certificates.
2020-07-09 16:56:28 kensanata And with that, it's time for dinner. Talk to you all later. :)
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2020-07-09 17:54:36 hind4 Hi. Does the specification require that <META> have a value? I.E. Could it be left empty?
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2020-07-09 19:13:33 gohan META is not required for all requests.
2020-07-09 19:13:49 gohan "If <META> is an empty string, the MIME type MUST default to "text/gemini; charset=utf-8". The text/gemini media type is defined in section 5."
2020-07-09 19:19:48 gohan The use the word MAY in the specification. This means optional. see https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2119.txt
2020-07-09 19:23:10 gohan ow they left.
2020-07-09 19:38:14 dkibi oh no kristall lost my configuration
2020-07-09 19:41:07 dkibi ah
2020-07-09 19:41:35 dkibi i had an old build and that created a new old config and then when i started the new build it merged from the new old config over that
2020-07-09 19:42:03 ℹ lel is now known as |
2020-07-09 19:42:07 ℹ | is now known as lel
2020-07-09 19:48:59 dkibi oh no I don't know how to ascii art: gemini://otrn.org/test/labyrinth2.py
2020-07-09 19:55:19 ~tiwesdaeg dkibi: I got lost and ended up in the back storeroom of a Walmart
2020-07-09 19:55:29 ~tiwesdaeg I must have taken a wrong turn in the hallway
2020-07-09 19:57:16 @tomasino oops
2020-07-09 20:02:07 dkibi :P
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2020-07-09 20:10:04 ⚡ kensanata presents his client certificates
2020-07-09 20:13:06 dkibi is this slow for any of you?
2020-07-09 20:14:39 @tomasino kensanata!
2020-07-09 20:14:45 @tomasino i adore your gemini wiki
2020-07-09 20:15:00 @tomasino i just hop around random links now
2020-07-09 20:15:03 @tomasino follow your tags
2020-07-09 20:16:47 kensanata tomasino: Thanks!
2020-07-09 20:17:50 kensanata tomasino: you mean, my wiki/blog? I always wonder how it would feel for somebody who discovers it. It goes back so far that I'm usually just scratching the surface myself, going back maybe half a year or so.
2020-07-09 20:18:35 kensanata tomasino: Also interesting to think that the Gopher interface didn't seem to be as compelling.
2020-07-09 20:18:57 @tomasino line wrapping
2020-07-09 20:19:02 @tomasino it was all about the line wrapping
2020-07-09 20:19:10 kensanata Ah, that's right. You said as much somewhere...
2020-07-09 20:19:19 @tomasino but now gemini is PERFECt
2020-07-09 20:19:33 @tomasino goldilocks-style
2020-07-09 20:19:34 kensanata Perhaps the disentangling of the inline links was also a good idea.
2020-07-09 20:19:45 @tomasino oh yes, that was also tremendous
2020-07-09 20:19:57 @tomasino trying to read markdown links gets tedious in a wiki
2020-07-09 20:20:25 @tomasino i just find this really enjoyable. So many of your interests overlap with mine, so it's easy to get lost in there
2020-07-09 20:20:30 kensanata Also, the UI solution I have for Gopher where ever wiki page is basically a menu with all the links, including the link to the text... that was cumbersome.
2020-07-09 20:20:48 @tomasino there were a few challenges i ran into with your gopher version
2020-07-09 20:20:49 kensanata Except for Monarchism... :D
2020-07-09 20:21:05 @tomasino had to follow 2 links to get to content, the RSS feed would show edited pages back up as new ones
2020-07-09 20:21:09 @tomasino and line length
2020-07-09 20:21:44 @tomasino not sure about the RSS, but the way it comes through now with Capcom is great
2020-07-09 20:22:23 kensanata I'm happy to hear it. :)
2020-07-09 20:23:23 makeworld dkibi: Nice CGI script?
2020-07-09 20:23:25 makeworld *!
2020-07-09 20:23:46 @tomasino does michael ever come hang in here?
2020-07-09 20:23:59 makeworld I wish he did, but no, I've never seen him
2020-07-09 20:24:04 @tomasino i know he's got a login squatting on tilde.town, but i don't recall the nick here
2020-07-09 20:24:11 @tomasino too bad
2020-07-09 20:24:14 makeworld I've been meaning to email him with a Jetforce compliment
2020-07-09 20:24:16 makeworld Yeah
2020-07-09 20:24:40 @tomasino jetforce is serving me quite well, and since the venv & rcd reccos i feel much better about it
2020-07-09 20:25:22 @tomasino i'm tempted to also run kensanata's wiki code
2020-07-09 20:25:33 @tomasino but maybe it would be better on cosmic
2020-07-09 20:26:07 @tomasino i could use nginx to reverse proxy the web parts from a rando port to https://cosmic.voyage/wiki/
2020-07-09 20:26:19 @tomasino and then let people do their actual business in gemini
2020-07-09 20:26:22 @tomasino hmmmmm
2020-07-09 20:26:26 @tomasino ideas
2020-07-09 20:26:26 kensanata Heh.
2020-07-09 20:26:51 @tomasino i mean, i'm already serving cosmic content on 1965, so i'd have to run the wiki on another port
2020-07-09 20:26:55 @tomasino or a subdomain!
2020-07-09 20:27:00 kensanata Let me know if you need some features. Currently the web UI has no CSS...
2020-07-09 20:27:19 @tomasino let me try to get my head around it a bit more
2020-07-09 20:27:27 kensanata tomasino: If I understand it correctly, just a subdomain isn't enough: it still has to have a separte port?
2020-07-09 20:27:31 @tomasino if you need CSS that's something in my skillset to actually contrubute
2020-07-09 20:27:43 @tomasino well, hrm
2020-07-09 20:28:02 @tomasino jetforce can vhost on the same port to different domains, but this would be serving two different gemini daemons
2020-07-09 20:28:10 @tomasino so i guess it would have to do some port shenanigans
2020-07-09 20:28:23 kensanata Exactly my problem on alexschroeder.ch... to many different services!
2020-07-09 20:28:45 @tomasino gonna help this kid nagging me for dessertr
2020-07-09 20:28:46 @tomasino back in a bit
2020-07-09 20:28:52 kensanata CU
2020-07-09 20:31:48 @tomasino We need something to sit above different server daemons and pass traffic to them
2020-07-09 20:32:00 @tomasino But that doesn't really work
2020-07-09 20:32:42 @tomasino Reverse proxy functions, perhaps? Hmm
2020-07-09 20:35:29 @tomasino Gah, over my head.
2020-07-09 20:35:42 @tomasino Oh, oh oh oh
2020-07-09 20:35:47 @tomasino Redirects!
2020-07-09 20:36:37 @tomasino Run wiki.cosmic.voyage on jetforce but just have it redirect to 1970 or something where the gwiki is running
2020-07-09 20:37:09 @tomasino Even better if I can wildcard redirect and keep the path intact
2020-07-09 20:38:06 @tomasino I'll look into that. New cert for cosmic, add a came,
2020-07-09 20:38:10 @tomasino Cname
2020-07-09 20:38:20 @tomasino Yesssssss
2020-07-09 20:38:59 @tomasino Then I'll need to read up on how you handle access rights
2020-07-09 20:41:23 kensanata I have one redirect in place, that's true.
2020-07-09 20:41:44 kensanata And I wrote a "dispatcher" (a reverse proxy) but decided the idea was rubbish.
2020-07-09 20:42:37 kensanata Basically the reverse proxy is a man-in-the-middle, removing and adding TLS to the "backend" and I thought it was weird and brittle and only made sense in a world where people are afraid of port numbers.
2020-07-09 20:42:54 kensanata As for access rights: right now everything is public.
2020-07-09 20:43:35 kensanata I haven't found good documentation that tells me how to setup server and client certs using openssl such that I could work on it.
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2020-07-09 20:50:36 @tomasino Gotcha
2020-07-09 20:51:00 @tomasino It's something!
2020-07-09 21:09:32 tuesday hello from my kindle!
2020-07-09 21:09:48 tuesday i
2020-07-09 21:10:33 tuesday need a gemini client for kindle
2020-07-09 21:17:03 kensanata Haha
2020-07-09 21:17:10 kensanata Very cool.
2020-07-09 21:17:42 kensanata I'm currently trying to follow along https://jamielinux.com/docs/openssl-certificate-authority/index.html
2020-07-09 21:23:35 makeworld kensanata: Pretty sure that doesn't apply to Gemini
2020-07-09 21:23:50 makeworld For both client and server certs there isn't really need for a CA
2020-07-09 21:24:39 ~tiwesdaeg I ended up logging in to tilde.pink and used bombadillo
2020-07-09 21:25:22 ~tiwesdaeg Sort of awkward
2020-07-09 21:25:44 makeworld What do you mean?
2020-07-09 21:26:31 kensanata makeworld: When I just created "certs" and told my client to supply these as client certs, I couldn't get any info from them on the server side. When I asked around, I was told that the server can only "validate" the client cert if they're something-something...
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2020-07-09 21:30:14 kensanata As in: "Well how will your client/server know how to trust each other? You need to import the CA certificate."
2020-07-09 21:30:48 kensanata And: 'I think this is the error in your expectations: client certs still need to be signed by the same CA as the server cert: they use the (singular, Authoritative) CA to mutually authenticate one another. It's no longer a "client-cert" if you're self-signing each peer; there may be a way to implement p2p certification, but client-certification isn't it.'
2020-07-09 21:31:17 kensanata So here I am, trying to decide what it is that I even have to do.
2020-07-09 21:32:08 kensanata I started that thread with "What I cannot do is use a client certificate with a common name set and retrieve that on the server side. It's either not there, or if I enable client cert verification, I can no longer connect with my self signed cert."
2020-07-09 21:43:55 kensanata The library I use has a pretty good introduction to the concepts so I'd love to know where I am wrong. https://metacpan.org/pod/IO::Socket::SSL#Essential-Information-About-SSL/TLS
2020-07-09 21:44:09 kensanata Then again, I also have to go to bed...
2020-07-09 21:44:12 kensanata Another day!
2020-07-09 21:44:18 makeworld Hmm
2020-07-09 21:44:28 makeworld Look at astrobotany.mozz.us for reference
2020-07-09 21:44:37 kensanata This is me, failing on at least three occasions to make sense of client certs.
2020-07-09 21:44:37 makeworld It doesn't require signing
2020-07-09 21:44:52 kensanata Hm.
2020-07-09 21:45:33 makeworld My understanding is that client certs are just regular certs
2020-07-09 21:45:35 kensanata I don't quite remember how I got my cert.pem and key.pem ... didn't mozz.us have to sign something I created?
2020-07-09 21:45:39 makeworld Hold on, give me a sec
2020-07-09 21:46:51 makeworld Alright so I'm pretty sure client certs are just regular self-signed certs, like Gemini servers use
2020-07-09 21:47:36 makeworld If you are trying to "validate" client certs, there are a few ways
2020-07-09 21:47:37 kensanata Hm. In that case, can I generate a self-signed cert for the commonname makeworld and water your plant?
2020-07-09 21:47:59 kensanata How does astrobotany know that only your cert is the correct one?
2020-07-09 21:48:29 makeworld No, because I already have the name. It hashes or stores the cert, then checks that db
2020-07-09 21:48:37 makeworld Like TOFU sort of
2020-07-09 21:49:23 makeworld So you can't "log in" as me, because it will look up the hash for the name makeworld, and see your custom cert doesn't match
2020-07-09 21:50:37 makeworld If you're trying to limit who can edit certain parts of a wiki, I'd say there's two ways. One is you manually add the hash to a file/db for each person, which is totally good
2020-07-09 21:50:44 kensanata makeworld: So when your client cert expires, it's first come first serve again...
2020-07-09 21:50:55 makeworld Not necessarily
2020-07-09 21:51:13 makeworld It depends on how you want to do it, we don't have standards for this in Gemini yet
2020-07-09 21:51:18 kensanata OK.
2020-07-09 21:51:24 makeworld You could choose not to care about the cert expiry at all
2020-07-09 21:51:35 makeworld I think that's what Astrobotany does??
2020-07-09 21:51:48 makeworld Like there's no reason the server has to do look at that
2020-07-09 21:51:53 makeworld *to look
2020-07-09 21:51:57 kensanata I think my first problem is that my library on the server side doesn't appear to give me any info on the client cert because it only requests it if I try to validate it and I can't validate self-signed certs.
2020-07-09 21:52:48 kensanata At least that was my take away when the naive implementation (which sounds totally compatible with what you're saying) just didn't work.
2020-07-09 21:52:56 makeworld Ah, yeah that could be an issue
2020-07-09 21:53:34 makeworld That's more a library issue though, maybe there's a way to work around it? The path of CAs you're going down is more complex and less compatible with other client cert ideas people have talked about
2020-07-09 21:53:45 makeworld What's the library?
2020-07-09 21:54:00 kensanata https://metacpan.org/pod/IO::Socket::SSL
2020-07-09 21:54:10 makeworld Oh for perl then?
2020-07-09 21:54:14 kensanata Yeah.
2020-07-09 21:54:33 kensanata I'm looking at the SSL_verify_mode option.
2020-07-09 21:55:34 kensanata This sounds promising: "If the validation fails because the certificate is self-signed and that's what you expect, you can use the SSL_fingerprint option to accept specific leaf certificates by their certificate or pubkey fingerprint."
2020-07-09 21:56:09 makeworld That sounds like a client thing?
2020-07-09 21:56:54 makeworld Like it sounds like it's referring to the server cert
2020-07-09 21:58:09 makeworld Tbh it looks like if you want to do client certs in a nice way you might have to switch languages
2020-07-09 21:58:12 makeworld Yikes
2020-07-09 21:58:14 kensanata My reading of the entire text was that it's basically symmetrical, except that SSL_verify for client code is set to SSL_VERIFY_PEER.
2020-07-09 21:58:37 makeworld Yeah, I'm not sure about what I said. No harm in trying!
2020-07-09 21:58:53 makeworld But having to set a specific fingerprint doesn't really work for the client cert
2020-07-09 21:59:12 makeworld Because you want to be able to accept any client cert, and then validate separately
2020-07-09 22:00:40 kensanata Maybe this can be delayed.
2020-07-09 22:01:04 kensanata "SSL_verifycn_scheme: The scheme is used to correctly verify the identity inside the certificate by using the hostname of the peer. … If you are really sure, that you don't want to verify the identity using the hostname you can use 'none' as a scheme. In this case you'd better have alternative forms of verification, like a certificate fingerprint or do a manual verification later by calling verify_hostname yourself."
2020-07-09 22:01:32 makeworld If the feature is symmetrical, then yeah that sounds good
2020-07-09 22:01:49 kensanata But yeah, it all sounds like super major pain and I'm going to bed now...
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2020-07-10 04:12:37 luna greetings! hopefully this is working right...
2020-07-10 04:12:58 drskrzyk irc or something else? if the first, then hello :D
2020-07-10 04:13:39 luna yeah, irc
2020-07-10 04:15:59 luna never bothered to try using it until now, but it seemed well worth trying :>
2020-07-10 04:16:03 epoch Hi
2020-07-10 04:16:44 epoch IRC is like twitter, but a whole lot less javascript
2020-07-10 04:20:53 luna the structure so far reminds me of discord communities without any the nonsense, i love it
2020-07-10 04:24:50 epoch :)
2020-07-10 04:27:52 omni also, you can join hashtags
2020-07-10 04:33:23 drskrzyk welcome, luna :D
2020-07-10 04:34:01 drskrzyk irc is the gopher of chat. discord is the electron infested trainwreck. err, I mean http+blah+blah
2020-07-10 04:35:46 epoch what's the talk protocol then?
2020-07-10 04:35:57 epoch uucp?
2020-07-10 04:38:25 drskrzyk nah that'd be more a mail equiv maybe? anyhow, it's cool. I love irc
2020-07-10 04:38:47 drskrzyk been using it since the ink on the rfc was still wet :D
2020-07-10 04:39:12 epoch the first RFC for it?
2020-07-10 04:39:48 drskrzyk idk - I remember it being around 1991-2, whichever hit the streets around then.
2020-07-10 04:39:58 drskrzyk istr it being around 92/93 it was formalized.
2020-07-10 04:41:00 epoch rfc1459 is from May 1993
2020-07-10 04:41:10 drskrzyk okay.
2020-07-10 04:41:39 epoch I first got on IRC in like, 2003 or 4 maybe
2020-07-10 04:42:29 epoch luckily not /everything/ put on the internet is permanent.
2020-07-10 04:44:11 luna irc really does seem like the gopher of chat, old but really reliable
2020-07-10 04:50:33 @ben it's mostly bulletproof
2020-07-10 04:50:51 @ben discord text chat is modeled after it
2020-07-10 04:52:50 drskrzyk it def has that feel with... "woowoowo we're so clever" and Electron bolted onto it.
2020-07-10 04:53:34 drskrzyk the branding (which I think they're changing up) made me a bit nauseated. They try and sound cute and gamer-y and it comes off as "Hello, fellow kids!"
2020-07-10 04:53:46 drskrzyk But, I am off topic :D
2020-07-10 04:54:12 drskrzyk errr... if someone does an irc to gemini bridge, I'll cry?
2020-07-10 04:55:14 luna as in being able to post to irc from gemini?
2020-07-10 04:57:58 omni as long as clients don't quote what people reply to...
2020-07-10 04:58:26 luna also yeah, discord's branding in the past always felt like a missed opportunity to advertise it for general-purpose use compared to "for gamers and other stuff too i guess"
2020-07-10 04:58:29 luna they do seem to be adopting it now though
2020-07-10 04:59:08 drskrzyk luna: I was mostly making a joke about there was mad push to web-ify every protocol out there. NNTP turned into web forums, webchat, etc. etc.etc.
2020-07-10 04:59:21 drskrzyk I doubt gemini would suffer from that.
2020-07-10 04:59:51 luna ah, i see lol
2020-07-10 05:13:20 luna i've always had a "right tool for the job" mindset when it comes to application layer protocols, too many things just seem to use http(s) when there's probably a better solution out there
2020-07-10 05:14:59 epoch like websockets?
2020-07-10 05:15:05 epoch :>
2020-07-10 05:15:21 epoch http over websockets when?
2020-07-10 05:15:44 luna lmao
2020-07-10 05:15:58 epoch looks kind of like people have done that already.
2020-07-10 05:16:35 epoch nvm.
2020-07-10 05:17:55 omni DOG - DNS over Gemini
2020-07-10 05:41:09 luna anyways, i should probably go get some sleep soon
2020-07-10 05:41:15 luna it was really nice meeting all of you!!
2020-07-10 05:42:22 luna has quit (Client exited)
2020-07-10 06:42:43 brainfunnel has quit (Client exited)
2020-07-10 12:13:01 wgreenhouse luna: I never know how to feel about foss projects whose main support channel is a discord thing
2020-07-10 12:16:22 omni at least it's not slack?
2020-07-10 12:27:25 ▬▬▶ rb100 has joined #gemini
2020-07-10 13:13:30 companion_cube how is it better? :)
2020-07-10 13:24:58 ⚡ yeti still hasnt found how to complain at such projects using discord, fb or such
2020-07-10 13:45:03 rb100 has quit (Client exited)
2020-07-10 13:48:06 drskrzyk loudly?
2020-07-10 13:57:24 yeti where?
2020-07-10 13:57:42 yeti without FB or discord account...
2020-07-10 13:58:14 yeti ok... sometimes a comment when a project in hackaday points to their FP pages...
2020-07-10 13:59:25 yeti OSS should be more aggressive about projects communicating thru "closed" channels
2020-07-10 16:03:16 ▬▬▶ acdw has joined #gemini
2020-07-10 16:04:04 makeworld acdw: What's good
2020-07-10 16:08:22 acdw hey ey!
2020-07-10 16:08:26 acdw editing some videos for work
2020-07-10 16:08:35 acdw ...my laptop has frozen lol
2020-07-10 16:08:37 acdw soooooo
2020-07-10 16:08:39 acdw that's not great
2020-07-10 16:08:43 acdw how are you makeworld?
2020-07-10 16:08:53 makeworld Ha good luck
2020-07-10 16:08:56 makeworld Not bad, not bad
2020-07-10 16:09:02 makeworld It's been very hot in Toronto
2020-07-10 16:09:37 makeworld All today looks to be nice
2020-07-10 16:09:43 makeworld Working on downloads in Amfora
2020-07-10 16:10:36 acdw oh nice! It's been vv hot in Louisiana too. and HUMID
2020-07-10 16:11:02 makeworld Yes so much humidity
2020-07-10 16:13:58 acdw it's GR8
2020-07-10 16:14:37 makeworld Enhh
2020-07-10 16:16:57 acdw I used to live in Flagstaff AZ which was great. The hottest it got in summer was...85F ? (30C)
2020-07-10 16:17:05 acdw and it was dry. a light breeze
2020-07-10 16:17:08 acdw beatuful
2020-07-10 16:17:21 makeworld Thanks for the conversion haha
2020-07-10 16:17:24 makeworld But yes sounds great
2020-07-10 16:18:05 acdw :D
2020-07-10 16:18:20 acdw I'm trying to be more international online. Esp. b/c America is the only F place
2020-07-10 16:19:12 makeworld I feel like there might be some African nation that also uses it... but they probably switched over lol
2020-07-10 16:19:40 makeworld Any chance of Bollux dev this weekend?
2020-07-10 16:23:29 acdw fingers crossed!
2020-07-10 16:23:45 acdw I have to do taxes with my mother-in-law on Saturday, but maybe after that
2020-07-10 16:24:09 acdw I really think I want to finish it ... get it to a 1.0 .. and then be done with it lol
2020-07-10 16:24:16 acdw turns out clicking and stuff is pretty important to me lol
2020-07-10 16:24:25 acdw OH I have to vote too! (tomrow))
2020-07-10 16:25:04 m68k heh, yeah I'm stoked that there's more serious development on GUI browsers than on gopher
2020-07-10 16:27:12 acdw haha yes
2020-07-10 16:27:32 acdw the ~good~ GUIs do gopher and gemini (and http (*cough* kristall))
2020-07-10 16:28:22 m68k well see none of this stuff existed a year ago :D
2020-07-10 16:29:22 acdw true fact!
2020-07-10 16:29:28 acdw it's prety impressive really
2020-07-10 16:30:50 m68k yeah I'm terrified that like the ecosystem is unrecognizable to me since I last checked o.o I need to remake my [what do we call a website?] from scratch
2020-07-10 16:31:14 acdw capsule? geminispace? gemsite? mine (gem-related)? shoot you can call it what you want :)
2020-07-10 16:31:26 acdw m68k when did you last check?
2020-07-10 16:31:38 acdw tbh I use portal.mozz.us like ... most of the time to browse
2020-07-10 16:32:04 m68k ah, yeah capsule. geminispace is the whole gemini internet, surely?
2020-07-10 16:32:51 acdw yeah, I guess you're right! Forgot, sorry I'm doing like 3 things at once
2020-07-10 16:33:29 acdw Oh we could call it the Crystal Dimension: https://adventuretime.fandom.com/wiki/Crystal_Dimension
2020-07-10 16:35:44 m68k well I set up a jetforce server late december. I lost steam in like march, have read bits of the discussions but for instsance I should set up an RSS feed etc
2020-07-10 16:37:46 companion_cube a favorite game of mine has a character named Crystal
2020-07-10 16:39:02 acdw m68k: I think you'd just need to update jetforce and then drop content into your box. solderpunk has a gemini RSS generator, I think on tildegit.org
2020-07-10 16:39:10 acdw companion_cube: Oh? What game?
2020-07-10 16:39:17 companion_cube nuclear throne :p
2020-07-10 16:42:21 makeworld Yeah, make sure you update m68k
2020-07-10 16:42:28 makeworld acdw: What's the voting for?
2020-07-10 16:43:59 acdw oh for Presidential primaries, local party leadership, one judgeship, and a ballot initiative for millage
2020-07-10 16:44:11 acdw Louisiana pushed the primaries back and then back again b/c covid
2020-07-10 16:44:53 acdw companion_cube: Oh I like roguelikes, sort of! I want to like them more than I think I actually do
2020-07-10 16:45:23 companion_cube it's kind of an action roguelike, but yeah :D
2020-07-10 16:45:33 companion_cube I spent a long time playing IVAN, 15y ago…
2020-07-10 16:48:06 acdw oh that is a cool name
2020-07-10 16:48:11 acdw I only ever played nethack really
2020-07-10 16:52:25 m68k mm dungeon crawl stone soup is a good one
2020-07-10 16:53:51 acdw I've heard of that! I think I can play it online somewehre too
2020-07-10 16:54:07 acdw lol first result: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjGgoH9ksPqAhVPIqwKHdVlALEQFjAAegQIAhAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fchildsupport.georgia.gov%2F&usg=AOvVaw0pK9MfxbL4W4anuMVwwKsL
2020-07-10 16:54:15 acdw yessh what a terrible url, sorry
2020-07-10 16:54:46 acdw found it :) http://crawl.berotato.org:8080/#lobby
2020-07-10 16:55:14 m68k yeah it might be on some tilde servers too? I forget
2020-07-10 16:58:12 acdw yeah I think so!
2020-07-10 16:58:25 ~tiwesdaeg nethack is on tilde.pink
2020-07-10 16:59:17 acdw +1 to nethack
2020-07-10 16:59:59 epoch nethack seems like pacman in how little I ever expect to finishing it.
2020-07-10 17:00:07 acdw tiwesdaeg: do you admin tilde.pink?
2020-07-10 17:00:14 acdw epoch: agreed :)
2020-07-10 17:00:19 epoch like, play a level or two, die, and that's what I expected.
2020-07-10 17:00:41 acdw haha yeap
2020-07-10 17:00:55 acdw reminds me. i need to write more IF for gemini
2020-07-10 17:01:43 epoch there was a neat seven-day-rogue I think that was called scrap where you play as a robot and can salvage parts of the fallen baddies.
2020-07-10 17:04:16 acdw oh that's awesome
2020-07-10 17:04:23 ℹ epoch is now known as perse
2020-07-10 17:05:45 ℹ perse is now known as epoch
2020-07-10 17:06:20 ℹ epoch is now known as www-data
2020-07-10 17:08:04 ℹ www-data is now known as epoch
2020-07-10 17:24:56 ~tiwesdaeg acdw: I sure do
2020-07-10 17:25:45 acdw *love* the colorscheme :) also I always forget ... what does YOLD stand for?
2020-07-10 17:25:59 ~tiwesdaeg Year of our Lady Discord
2020-07-10 17:26:21 ~tiwesdaeg from the discordian calendar system
2020-07-10 17:27:06 acdw yes! thank you :) I've been appreciating all your discordian stuff as well
2020-07-10 17:27:28 ~tiwesdaeg congratulations, you're a pope!
2020-07-10 17:28:15 acdw :O for real!?? oh I'm so happy
2020-07-10 17:28:54 acdw I know I've asked this before, but discordianism is basically for like, whatever right? like I can just start publishing discordian texts and it'll be set
2020-07-10 17:28:55 acdw ?
2020-07-10 17:29:34 ~tiwesdaeg https://www.libraryoferis.org/files/pope.txt
2020-07-10 17:29:54 ~tiwesdaeg there is no centralized organization
2020-07-10 17:30:06 ~tiwesdaeg that actually goes against the idea of discordiansim
2020-07-10 17:31:17 ~tiwesdaeg gemini://libraryoferis.org/cgi-bin/item.cgi?LOE00001
2020-07-10 17:31:25 ~tiwesdaeg I'd start here if you want to learn more
2020-07-10 17:31:52 ~tiwesdaeg if you do ever write anything, let me know and I'll at it to the library of eris
2020-07-10 17:32:01 ~tiwesdaeg s/at/add
2020-07-10 17:37:40 acdw :D yes!
2020-07-10 17:37:58 acdw I've actually written something before I knew about discordianism, but I think is somewhat in touch with it...
2020-07-10 17:38:01 acdw back in college
2020-07-10 17:38:13 acdw love that card, btw
2020-07-10 17:38:40 acdw i want to print the principia so badly but i don't think thta's a good idea at work lol
2020-07-10 17:39:02 epoch I'm going to say it is discordian to make assertions about discordianism without consulting any authorities.
2020-07-10 17:39:08 epoch like that.
2020-07-10 17:40:44 acdw hahah yes
2020-07-10 17:40:56 ~tiwesdaeg after all, we are all popes, which means we can make up any doctrine we want
2020-07-10 17:41:25 acdw yus
2020-07-10 17:41:45 acdw well the thing I wrote starts here https://acdw.gitlab.io/autocento/prelude.html if you want to look at it, it came from the "Gospel of Hezekiah"
2020-07-10 17:41:55 acdw but of course I shoehorned it into my Master's Thesis, lol
2020-07-10 17:47:33 @tomasino 24
2020-07-10 17:47:38 @tomasino derp
2020-07-10 17:48:04 acdw 25
2020-07-10 17:48:24 acdw we doing #counting in here? lo
2020-07-10 17:48:25 acdw l
2020-07-10 17:48:34 yeti XXVI
2020-07-10 17:48:39 @tomasino :D
2020-07-10 17:49:29 epoch 3**3
2020-07-10 17:51:23 acdw twenty-eight
2020-07-10 17:53:28 yeti == 2nd perfect number
2020-07-10 17:54:41 acdw the tenth prime number, and also the fourth primorial prime.
2020-07-10 17:55:17 @tomasino 8675309 is a prime
2020-07-10 17:55:22 @tomasino just sayin'
2020-07-10 17:55:33 login dwefine primorial prime
2020-07-10 17:55:49 acdw hahahah that's good
2020-07-10 17:56:04 acdw gonna use that for my gemini server's encryptino
2020-07-10 17:56:34 @tomasino ben: what's that weird phone number of your friend that's ALSO a prime?
2020-07-10 17:56:41 @ben 4201969?
2020-07-10 17:56:44 @tomasino yeah
2020-07-10 17:56:53 @ben such a good phone number
2020-07-10 17:56:57 @ben i would rate it 5/7
2020-07-10 17:57:20 @tomasino i would rate it an 11, cause prime
2020-07-10 17:58:33 login acdw: your gemini server encryption should use 256-bit primes
2020-07-10 17:58:43 login i mean, sorry, 4096-bit primes
2020-07-10 17:58:56 @tomasino why not 8675309-bit primes?
2020-07-10 17:59:08 login which number is that?
2020-07-10 17:59:16 login can you find that bit prime? plus, the calculation is slower
2020-07-10 17:59:44 login i just want a dvd or bluray disk of primes
2020-07-10 17:59:49 login sounds like a good souvenir to keep
2020-07-10 18:00:45 epoch I have a pretty long prime memorized.
2020-07-10 18:00:56 login Is it your password?
2020-07-10 18:01:01 acdw hehe login: i figured :)
2020-07-10 18:01:04 login sounds scandalously nice
2020-07-10 18:01:10 acdw okay goin to lunch, by yall
2020-07-10 18:01:15 login bye
2020-07-10 18:01:16 acdw s/by/bye
2020-07-10 18:01:17 epoch 1000000000000066600000000000001
2020-07-10 18:01:18 acdw :)
2020-07-10 18:01:28 login no way that is a prime
2020-07-10 18:01:31 acdw has quit (Client exited)
2020-07-10 18:01:34 login that prime is only for the devil
2020-07-10 18:01:47 login sip-...-br.no.cox.net
2020-07-10 18:01:47 @tomasino oh yes, that's got a fun name
2020-07-10 18:01:49 epoch "1" + ("0" * 13) + "666" + ("0" * 13) + 1
2020-07-10 18:01:52 epoch palindrome too
2020-07-10 18:01:59 login palindromic primes
2020-07-10 18:02:04 login they must have special properties
2020-07-10 18:02:06 @tomasino i forget it... baal's prime or something
2020-07-10 18:02:12 epoch "Belphegor's prime"
2020-07-10 18:02:26 @tomasino ahh, that's it
2020-07-10 18:02:27 login If it's a palindrome in base 10
2020-07-10 18:02:34 login does it have to be a palindrome in base 2?
2020-07-10 18:02:54 epoch probably not
2020-07-10 18:03:46 epoch base10 101 == base2 1100101
2020-07-10 18:06:01 @tomasino you ever play with negidecimal numbers?
2020-07-10 18:06:03 @tomasino base -10?
2020-07-10 18:06:42 epoch not much, but I think I know how a negative base number might work.
2020-07-10 18:07:18 @tomasino it's really neat how the numeric representations of a numberline jump all over the place in negidecimal
2020-07-10 18:07:25 @tomasino but the math operations are even weirder
2020-07-10 18:07:31 @tomasino multiplication / division and such
2020-07-10 18:07:33 @tomasino it's wild
2020-07-10 18:07:38 epoch have you looked at where the fibonacci sequence goes if you run it backwards? :)
2020-07-10 18:07:53 @tomasino nope
2020-07-10 18:08:01 epoch it bounces back and forth ever more violent the more negative you get
2020-07-10 18:08:14 @tomasino coool!
2020-07-10 18:08:27 epoch it is the same as it is forwards but alternates in sign
2020-07-10 18:09:15 epoch something like -1 1 -2 3 -5 8 -13 21
2020-07-10 18:09:57 @tomasino https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_base
2020-07-10 18:09:59 epoch 21 + -13 = 8 ; -13 + 8 = -5 ; 8 + -5 = 3 ; -5 + 3 = -2
2020-07-10 18:10:24 @tomasino there's code further down that page
2020-07-10 18:10:29 @tomasino in case you want to play play play
2020-07-10 18:11:10 yeti epoch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghxQA3vvhsk
2020-07-10 18:11:30 @tomasino and of course, once you play with that , imaginary bases are the next step
2020-07-10 18:11:34 @tomasino i love recreational math
2020-07-10 18:25:46 ▬▬▶ kensanata has joined #gemini
2020-07-10 18:27:45 kensanata Hello again! May the client certificates be with you.
2020-07-10 18:28:13 ⚡ tomasino shows the secret gemini handsign of two fingers held in the air
2020-07-10 18:28:16 @tomasino Peace.
2020-07-10 18:30:25 yeti ,,\/_
2020-07-10 18:30:32 kensanata ☝👆
2020-07-10 18:30:42 @tomasino haha
2020-07-10 18:30:43 @tomasino yes
2020-07-10 18:31:02 ⚡ yeti prefers \\//_
2020-07-10 18:31:30 kensanata What's that, 🖖 ?
2020-07-10 18:31:41 yeti ask spock
2020-07-10 18:31:46 kensanata I've never been a Trekkie but I've used it as well.
2020-07-10 18:32:28 ⚡ yeti strongly dislikes that space cowboy kirk...
2020-07-10 18:33:07 @tomasino it's okay, he never really existed, yeti. It's all just a fiction. :)
2020-07-10 18:33:11 ⚡ tomasino pats yeti on the head
2020-07-10 18:33:14 epoch see you space cowboy?
2020-07-10 18:34:11 yeti has left #gemini
2020-07-10 18:34:27 wgreenhouse I never saw the ep where kirk interfered in yeti civilization
2020-07-10 18:34:30 wgreenhouse but he totally would
2020-07-10 18:34:50 @tomasino totally
2020-07-10 18:36:09 makeworld Anyone know a gemini site with some large non-text files?
2020-07-10 18:36:19 makeworld Want to test my downloading feature
2020-07-10 18:36:35 epoch uh, one sec.
2020-07-10 18:36:39 epoch lemme symlink a file
2020-07-10 18:37:41 epoch wait. /how/ big?
2020-07-10 18:37:50 epoch I have an 8.8M mp4
2020-07-10 18:38:25 makeworld Sounds good, let's try!
2020-07-10 18:38:31 epoch gemini://gemini.thebackupbox.net/animatrix.mp4
2020-07-10 18:38:43 epoch pretty sure my gemini server will work with a symlink instead of choking
2020-07-10 18:39:28 makeworld Received!
2020-07-10 18:39:32 makeworld Show intro?
2020-07-10 18:39:42 epoch DVD intro
2020-07-10 18:40:10 epoch was thinking it might be neat to recreate it with VR stuff and wanted to show someone what I was talking about
2020-07-10 18:40:24 epoch so now I just use it as a test video
2020-07-10 18:41:34 makeworld Yeah it would be
2020-07-10 18:43:14 kensanata gemini://alexschroeder.ch/do/gallery has a ton of images
2020-07-10 18:43:49 kensanata But I guess... how large is large? :D
2020-07-10 18:44:01 makeworld Thanks! I've been testing with images, I just wanted to see something larger, like tens of MB maybe
2020-07-10 18:44:13 makeworld I would have used konpeito, but it's down
2020-07-10 18:53:03 kensanata So, given that I can water my plant using AV-89, how can I do the same using gnutls-cli? echo "gemini://astrobotany.mozz.us/app/plant" | gnutls-cli astrobotany.mozz.us:1965 --crlf --x509certfile=/home/alex/.config/av98/cert_cache/astrobotany/cert.pem --x509keyfile=/home/alex/.config/av98/cert_cache/astrobotany/key.pem --tofu ... but sadly that gives me an error.
2020-07-10 18:53:11 kensanata *** Fatal error: Error in the certificate.
2020-07-10 18:56:24 epoch I can give you any amount of bytes you want if you don't mind that they're all the same byte.
2020-07-10 18:56:53 epoch yes | dd count=100 #or something like that
2020-07-10 18:56:54 makeworld Ha
2020-07-10 18:57:05 makeworld I think it's good now, but why not?
2020-07-10 18:58:49 epoch gemini://gemini.thebackupbox.net/y51mb
2020-07-10 18:59:09 epoch /exec -o cat /var/gemini/y51mb
2020-07-10 18:59:11 epoch #!/bin/sh
2020-07-10 18:59:11 epoch yes | dd count=100000
2020-07-10 19:08:43 makeworld Not getting a header...
2020-07-10 19:09:03 epoch oh. duh me.
2020-07-10 19:09:05 makeworld You'll have to add:
2020-07-10 19:09:08 epoch yeah
2020-07-10 19:09:28 makeworld echo -e '20 application/octet-stream\r\n'
2020-07-10 19:09:34 makeworld Or something
2020-07-10 19:10:32 epoch reload
2020-07-10 19:10:42 epoch I made it 10 to ask what mime you wanted
2020-07-10 19:10:57 makeworld Kool
2020-07-10 19:10:57 epoch if it has a query string it'll use that.
2020-07-10 19:11:51 makeworld Yeah I see, nice
2020-07-10 19:11:53 makeworld Good test
2020-07-10 19:12:16 makeworld Alright saved, exactly 51,200,000 bytes
2020-07-10 19:12:41 epoch now, you want /dev/urandom? :>
2020-07-10 19:12:44 makeworld But keep this up please, I'll use it for some other tests
2020-07-10 19:12:45 makeworld Ha
2020-07-10 19:13:01 epoch fuzz the text/gemini parser?
2020-07-10 19:13:33 makeworld I'm adding a limit to text/gemini response size
2020-07-10 19:13:44 makeworld I'll use this to test that limit
2020-07-10 19:14:40 epoch kk
2020-07-10 19:22:27 ▬▬▶ luna has joined #gemini
2020-07-10 19:26:04 makeworld epoch: You don't decode the query string with percent decoding
2020-07-10 19:26:27 makeworld So gemini://gemini.thebackupbox.net/y51mb?text%2Fgemini returns a MIME type of text%2Fgemini
2020-07-10 19:30:15 ▬▬▶ brainfunnel has joined #gemini
2020-07-10 19:36:13 epoch one sec then..
2020-07-10 19:36:53 ⚡ epoch | uriunescape
2020-07-10 19:37:52 epoch now you can have null bytes in your response type. :)
2020-07-10 19:38:27 epoch or invalid unicode
2020-07-10 19:38:36 epoch invalid utf-8*
2020-07-10 19:39:42 makeworld Ayy there we go
2020-07-10 19:40:23 ⚡ epoch searches for invalid utf-8 sequences
2020-07-10 19:40:30 epoch \xc3\x28 is a two-byte one
2020-07-10 19:42:03 makeworld Even just \xc3 works
2020-07-10 19:43:06 epoch because it ends before a second byte?
2020-07-10 19:43:43 epoch and the leading bit pattern 110 indicates there should be another?
2020-07-10 19:45:47 ▬▬▶ acdw has joined #gemini
2020-07-10 19:54:04 makeworld I guess??
2020-07-10 19:54:58 makeworld The uni command just told me it was invalid
2020-07-10 21:05:22 kensanata has quit (The TLS connection was non-properly terminated.)
2020-07-10 21:19:55 kayw wow writing my client is turning out to be harder than i though
2020-07-10 21:19:58 kayw thought*
2020-07-10 21:20:10 acdw what language are you writing it in kayw?
2020-07-10 21:20:15 kayw nim
2020-07-10 21:20:37 kayw im making a connection (hurrah!) but i keep getting code 40
2020-07-10 21:20:41 acdw oh cool! I know nothing about nim.
2020-07-10 21:21:22 kayw it feels very python-y, so i feel at home, but they are definitely two separate languages
2020-07-10 21:21:33 acdw 40? hm. do you get a META string?
2020-07-10 21:22:13 kayw nope, i dont get anything in return. im gonna experiement some more and we'll see
2020-07-10 21:22:19 epoch I think I might expand the query-string-as-mime-type-used-in-response to also allow you to pick the numeric
2020-07-10 21:22:45 epoch so you can really easily test your client against empty, non-number, very long, negative, etc
2020-07-10 21:23:38 kayw the docs on the net module are very lackluster so I need to read more
2020-07-10 21:23:38 acdw kayw: good luck!
2020-07-10 21:24:37 kayw thanks! im gonna need it
2020-07-10 21:25:02 acdw epoch: great idea tbh. like that http website where it has different endpoints for things
2020-07-10 21:25:07 acdw I cannot remember the name rn
2020-07-10 21:26:17 epoch gemini://gemini.thebackupbox.net/queryresponse
2020-07-10 21:27:26 acdw amazing, epoch!
2020-07-10 21:27:35 acdw I had it give 98 whatever
2020-07-10 21:27:36 epoch on my http site I have a title.cgi that lets me put env vars from the httpd into <title> so I can poke at IRC titlebots
2020-07-10 21:27:44 acdw gemini needs a teapot return code tbh
2020-07-10 21:27:56 acdw that's great lol
2020-07-10 21:27:58 epoch what's response 69?
2020-07-10 21:28:11 epoch or 42?
2020-07-10 21:28:19 acdw I don't think anything? Should be something lewd
2020-07-10 21:28:28 acdw 42 actually makes sense to include; it's space-themed :)
2020-07-10 21:28:34 epoch 69 Must Be Over 18
2020-07-10 21:28:43 acdw 42 should be, "I'm about to send you everything I have"
2020-07-10 21:28:52 acdw which would totes be an error
2020-07-10 21:28:54 acdw also ewwww
2020-07-10 21:29:05 acdw which is what l ew d contains I suppose
2020-07-10 21:29:55 epoch 65 seems like it'd be some meta response
2020-07-10 21:30:35 epoch I'll put some actually useful diagnostic data in that queryresponse page
2020-07-10 21:31:23 acdw 65? why meta?
2020-07-10 21:31:27 acdw OH cuz 1965
2020-07-10 21:31:42 makeworld They're all out of spec tbh
2020-07-10 21:32:05 makeworld I know you're joking ofc, but I'm pretty sure a compliant client will raise an error?
2020-07-10 21:32:14 epoch hopefully
2020-07-10 21:32:52 epoch does the spec say what clients should do with un-spec responses?
2020-07-10 21:33:09 makeworld "If a server sends a <STATUS> which is not a two-digit number or a <META> which exceeds 1024 bytes in length, the client SHOULD close the connection and disregard the response header, informing the user of an error."
2020-07-10 21:33:11 epoch or is it "undefined behavior"?
2020-07-10 21:33:25 epoch alright.
2020-07-10 21:33:27 makeworld I will extrapolate "not a two-digit number" to also apply to non-valid status codes
2020-07-10 21:33:40 makeworld Amfora will raise an error for code 12, for example
2020-07-10 21:33:48 makeworld Anything not prescribed
2020-07-10 21:34:19 epoch case 10: case 20: case etc: default: warning();
2020-07-10 21:34:49 acdw I found it: http://httpbin.org/
2020-07-10 21:35:18 acdw the thing that tests http things
2020-07-10 21:35:25 epoch ooooooooh. neat.
2020-07-10 21:35:28 ⚡ epoch saves link
2020-07-10 21:35:48 acdw I would think that a non-specced 2-digit error code would simply degrade (in a sane client) to the one-digit error
2020-07-10 21:35:54 acdw if that first digit is 1-6 ofc
2020-07-10 21:36:02 acdw otherwise, fatal error
2020-07-10 21:36:50 acdw of course, you could include easter eggs in your client -- e.g., 42 or 69 or 68
2020-07-10 21:37:04 acdw though servers would have to serve those codes, so it'd be a tough egg ...
2020-07-10 21:37:05 acdw to crack
2020-07-10 21:37:41 epoch there was an easter egg in IE5
2020-07-10 21:37:52 epoch that was harder to get to than that
2020-07-10 21:37:56 acdw oh yeah?
2020-07-10 21:38:00 acdw love easter eggs
2020-07-10 21:38:42 epoch getting to it is like level 3 on http://3564020356.org/
2020-07-10 21:39:54 acdw oh lort
2020-07-10 21:40:03 acdw that is going to be a timesuck for me
2020-07-10 21:40:55 epoch if you really want a timesink... https://wechall.net/
2020-07-10 21:41:22 epoch which aggregates the scores from 62 (so far) different challenge sites
2020-07-10 21:41:30 epoch and then calculates a global score
2020-07-10 21:41:56 acdw oh no
2020-07-10 21:42:03 acdw I'm going to lose all of them, I know it
2020-07-10 21:42:18 acdw I'm actually not good at puzzles -- I can't solve higher than Wednesday on the crossword
2020-07-10 21:43:07 epoch there's no hurry or rush
2020-07-10 21:43:16 acdw haa
2020-07-10 21:44:25 acdw oh this will be fun. ma's reversing, that is!
2020-07-10 21:44:58 epoch wechall gives you nice graphs and percentages and a list of other sites to play on when you're bored and stuck on the places you know of.
2020-07-10 21:46:49 acdw oh that's great. gonna have to make an account there today
2020-07-10 21:50:47 epoch I had some nice shell challenges for a while.
2020-07-10 21:51:28 acdw like over ssh or telnet, or like, "rm -rf /*" ?
2020-07-10 21:51:37 acdw or I guess a script would work
2020-07-10 21:51:48 epoch over ssh mostly. some were exploit other services.
2020-07-10 21:52:15 epoch or just things like "connect to this port from an IP within the dn42 range"
2020-07-10 21:52:19 acdw oh that's fun
2020-07-10 21:52:29 epoch so that one challenge was to just get on dn42
2020-07-10 21:53:02 epoch I also gave people their own named accounts so it was kind of tilde-like but with shell-challenges
2020-07-10 21:53:07 acdw oh that's really fun
2020-07-10 21:53:38 epoch its been down since January of last year.
2020-07-10 21:53:53 epoch I had a meltdown and deleted everything.
2020-07-10 21:54:28 epoch and I haven't rebuilt it like I usually did after I deleted everything.
2020-07-10 21:54:36 acdw oh I hope you're feeling better now!
2020-07-10 21:55:04 epoch mostly most of the time
2020-07-10 21:56:31 epoch yay. it is raining.
2020-07-10 21:56:31 acdw I know how that goes....
2020-07-10 21:56:52 epoch brb. standing in rain.
2020-07-10 21:58:35 acdw oof
2020-07-10 21:58:49 epoch :) yay rain
2020-07-10 22:03:56 acdw :D
2020-07-10 22:04:48 acdw That's so funny I took your original "yay. it is raining." as sarcastic. The perils of text-based communication
2020-07-10 22:05:19 epoch that's why I doubled down on the "yay" and smiley face. I figured that's what happened from the "oof"
2020-07-10 22:05:20 epoch :)
2020-07-10 22:06:43 acdw hehe
2020-07-10 22:11:13 luna trying to interpret the tone of text is fun
2020-07-10 22:12:36 acdw SO much fun ;)
2020-07-10 22:13:11 acdw e.g.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony_punctuation
2020-07-10 22:14:54 acdw oh, this is good: "Another example is bracketing text with the symbol for the element iron (<Fe> and </Fe>) in order to denote irony.[citation needed]"
2020-07-10 22:15:45 luna lmao
2020-07-10 22:16:14 acdw <Fe> needs to be in the text/gemini spec
2020-07-10 22:16:43 acdw for greater semantic fluidity in text/gemini documents and to make it harder to troll
2020-07-10 22:16:46 epoch <Fe><Fe>lol</Fe></Fe>
2020-07-10 22:16:59 acdw oh lort
2020-07-10 22:17:45 acdw also apparently :^) has "taken a hold in some communities[who?]"
2020-07-10 22:17:49 epoch <![CDATA[ <Pb>wat</Pb> ]]>
2020-07-10 22:18:19 acdw so I hereby formally suggest that :^) become the text/gemini line-type for sarcasm
2020-07-10 22:19:16 luna we don't need inline links, but we do need sarcasm indication :^)
2020-07-10 22:19:36 epoch gemini://gemini.thebackupbox.net/sarcasm.gmi
2020-07-10 22:19:41 acdw uh yeah luna of course
2020-07-10 22:19:43 epoch and there's an instance of it in the wild!
2020-07-10 22:20:16 acdw :O
2020-07-10 22:20:22 acdw amazing
2020-07-10 22:20:31 epoch you forgot the :^)
2020-07-10 22:20:42 acdw I was *serious*
2020-07-10 22:20:45 acdw :^)
2020-07-10 22:21:02 acdw I think clients should be specced to render sarcastic lines as Comic Sans
2020-07-10 22:21:19 epoch I was thinking about emphasis on certain words indicating what within the sentence someone was being sarcastic about.
2020-07-10 22:21:59 acdw mm that could work. I just realized I surround sarcastic or "extra" text (or text I want to be taken self-consciously) with ~tildes~
2020-07-10 22:22:33 acdw Or you could spec that clients render sarcasm lines like this:
2020-07-10 22:22:59 epoch "elephants *love* mice" vs "*elephants* love mice" vs "elephants love *mice*"
2020-07-10 22:23:03 acdw :^) I'm being super cereal you guys => I'm BeInG sUpEr CeReAl YoU gUyS
2020-07-10 22:23:35 acdw lol have you seen that Seinfeld bit? Jerry asks Elaine which word someone emphasized and he gives two examples
2020-07-10 22:23:51 acdw and she's like, "I think he said <emphasizes another word>"
2020-07-10 22:24:25 epoch I think I've seen that somehow.
2020-07-10 22:24:36 acdw haha of course what I'm describing is impossible to google
2020-07-10 22:25:47 acdw so we'll have to trust each other
2020-07-10 22:26:05 acdw .. now here's a questions: if :^) is the sarcasm face, what about 8^) ?
2020-07-10 22:26:37 @tomasino Why so cereal?
2020-07-10 22:26:40 epoch that's just silly
2020-07-10 22:27:06 acdw B^)
2020-07-10 22:28:28 luna X^)
2020-07-10 22:28:36 epoch _ _
2020-07-10 22:28:37 epoch \O_o/
2020-07-10 22:31:35 acdw ooh a two-liner that's nice
2020-07-10 22:31:56 acdw so anyway I think text/gemini has space for all sorts of emoticon-based line types
2020-07-10 22:32:02 acdw thanks for coming to my Ted talk
2020-07-10 22:34:48 luna how is everyone doing?
2020-07-10 22:36:38 acdw wonderful, you!?
2020-07-10 22:38:46 luna i'm doing alright, just thinking about where i want to go with hosting stuff
2020-07-10 22:39:04 luna was almost considering trying to host my own email but hahahaha no i won't even try
2020-07-10 22:40:48 luna i'm quite a newbie to a lot of things, from irc to working with a vps to registering a domain
2020-07-10 22:41:05 luna makes me both anxious and excited at the same time, since it gives me something to do and usually works out in the end
2020-07-10 22:42:05 acdw haha I know exactly how you mean luna, that's wehre I still am with breadpunk
2020-07-10 22:42:18 acdw I went with digital ocean but I've heard good things re vultr
2020-07-10 22:42:46 luna yeah, i only use digitalocean at the moment because github student benefit credit lol
2020-07-10 22:43:30 acdw oh nice!
2020-07-10 22:44:21 acdw I'm definitely team "cheapest"
2020-07-10 22:44:30 luna but in the future i might want to go with something cheaper like vultr or hetzner because i'm a penny pincher i guess
2020-07-10 22:45:34 luna most of what i plan to use my vps for consists of gemini, git and basic https anyways :P
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2020-07-10 22:46:33 acdw oh I've heard good about hetzner too -- is it cheaper? for mypersonal webiste I want to go cheap cheap cheap
2020-07-10 22:47:05 @tomasino https://ttm.sh/QRw.jpg - Why so cereal
2020-07-10 22:47:06 @tomasino :D
2020-07-10 22:48:12 acdw omg lol you spent TIME on that :P
2020-07-10 22:49:00 @tomasino i did
2020-07-10 22:49:05 @tomasino :D
2020-07-10 22:52:17 acdw love it
2020-07-10 22:58:27 acdw alright yall going home. bye
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2020-07-10 23:00:57 makeworld Only one feature left to add for Amfora v1.3.0... search in pages
2020-07-10 23:01:10 makeworld It seems pretty annoying tbh
2020-07-10 23:08:49 makeworld I think it's going to end up being a v1.4.0 thing
2020-07-10 23:09:58 ▬▬▶ luna has joined #gemini
2020-07-10 23:20:03 makeworld Hey luna
2020-07-10 23:20:40 luna hey hey!
2020-07-10 23:21:03 makeworld Hey hEy hey
2020-07-10 23:21:13 makeworld What's up, how's Gemini treating you
2020-07-10 23:25:59 luna gemini is treating me well, just toying around with gig at the moment
2020-07-10 23:29:14 luna might end up using a more traditional gemini library for server stuff though, not sure yet
2020-07-10 23:30:40 makeworld Oh nice, I haven't used gig but it seems very advanced and cool
2020-07-10 23:30:48 makeworld I should look at it more
2020-07-10 23:30:53 makeworld Lmk if you end up using it
2020-07-10 23:31:15 makeworld I've also been wanting to build a Jetforce app, bc it looks so nice and easy
2020-07-10 23:31:27 luna will do
2020-07-10 23:36:09 makeworld Alright, Amfora v1.3.0 released :))
2020-07-10 23:36:20 makeworld https://github.com/makeworld-the-better-one/amfora/releases/tag/v1.3.0
2020-07-10 23:36:24 makeworld Now with downloading!
2020-07-10 23:41:21 luna i knew your username was familiar omg, i was going crazy trying to remember what it was you made
2020-07-10 23:49:34 makeworld Haha you've seen my site?
2020-07-10 23:50:13 luna i found the go-gemini repo through god knows where, i don't even remember lol
2020-07-10 23:50:18 makeworld Do you have a site up already?
2020-07-10 23:50:22 makeworld Oh cool
2020-07-10 23:50:52 makeworld That's sort of just my personal repo, but a couple people have started adding to it ha
2020-07-10 23:51:48 luna i haven't hosted anything on gemini other than testing how small i can make my tls certificates
2020-07-10 23:53:21 luna was working on a program to generate them too, but considering soldierpunk is already planning on making the same thing i'm not sure if it's worth releasing
2020-07-10 23:53:45 makeworld No harm in having two, but might make sense to wait yeah
2020-07-10 23:54:00 makeworld Tbh I don't see how his tool can't just be a openssl command
2020-07-10 23:55:16 luna go has libraries to generate certs, but when it comes to actually running it in a command line it kind of is just like using openssl lol
2020-07-10 23:56:38 makeworld Yeah
2020-07-10 23:57:07 makeworld The one advantage I see is that for wildcard certs you need OpenSSL 1.1.1 like I talked about in my post, and not everyone has that
2020-07-10 23:57:16 makeworld But idk if his tool will even generate wildcard certs
2020-07-10 23:58:00 @tomasino you're a wildcard cert
2020-07-10 23:58:33 luna i was thinking of just posting my observations about reducing cert size to the mailing list, but i don't know if they're substantial enough to warrant a thread on there in the first place
2020-07-11 00:02:48 makeworld What have you observed?
2020-07-11 00:02:51 makeworld Thanks tomasino
2020-07-11 00:02:57 makeworld >:)
2020-07-11 00:03:30 makeworld For reducing cert size, all I've written about really is switching to EC keys, which seems good enough. Is there something else?
2020-07-11 00:05:42 luna not much other than making the maximum serial number size 8 bits and saving a few bytes
2020-07-11 00:06:10 makeworld Ah ok
2020-07-11 00:06:22 makeworld Idk if that makes much of a practical difference, but it's still a cool exercies
2020-07-11 00:06:36 makeworld But sure, go ahead and send it to the list!
2020-07-11 00:07:10 luna yeah, it was just fun to see how small i could make them
2020-07-11 00:07:28 luna i really do hope that things like the web gateways pick up on ecc support soon too ;w;
2020-07-11 00:07:54 makeworld Wdym?
2020-07-11 00:08:01 makeworld Like portal.mozz.us?
2020-07-11 00:08:20 makeworld It support EC keys, doesn't it?
2020-07-11 00:09:02 luna from what i remember it doesn't support it
2020-07-11 00:09:34 makeworld Hmmph
2020-07-11 00:09:52 luna tried cozylabs.eu and my own host, comes up with a connection error
2020-07-11 00:10:36 makeworld Isn't that ed25519?
2020-07-11 00:10:55 makeworld Yeah it is
2020-07-11 00:11:02 makeworld Which is different than EC
2020-07-11 00:11:16 luna ohhhh lol
2020-07-11 00:11:29 makeworld Right now I've been advising against using ed25519 keys bc their less compatible with all libraries and stuff
2020-07-11 00:11:45 makeworld I think they're a tiny bit smaller? Still 256 bits though
2020-07-11 00:12:08 makeworld Wow gig looks nice
2020-07-11 00:12:27 makeworld Makes me wonder if I should just stay in Go, and not go back to Python to build some app
2020-07-11 00:13:41 luna i was able to make certs around 200-210 bytes on average with ed25519, 178 at the lowest (no common name defined)
2020-07-11 00:14:06 luna yeah, gig is pretty nice
2020-07-11 00:22:29 luna i'm likely to go with either net-gemini or go-gemini since those are more of my cup of tea
2020-07-11 00:22:36 luna it's hard to choose
2020-07-11 00:23:22 makeworld I would go with net-gemini or gig if you're writing an app
2020-07-11 00:23:31 makeworld Tbh I would not use go-gemini for any server stuff
2020-07-11 00:23:42 makeworld I have not put any work into that side of things and there are likely bugs
2020-07-11 00:23:57 wgreenhouse makeworld: any tls impl that claims tls 1.3 compatibility ought to handle ed25519 certa
2020-07-11 00:24:02 wgreenhouse *certs
2020-07-11 00:24:08 makeworld Yes
2020-07-11 00:24:16 makeworld But not all clients handle tls 1.3
2020-07-11 00:24:33 makeworld Libraries of the language holding them back
2020-07-11 00:25:04 kayw oh my god, writing this client is so painful
2020-07-11 00:25:37 makeworld Uh oh
2020-07-11 00:26:04 makeworld luna: Gig looks better than net-gemini, I'd go with that
2020-07-11 00:26:35 kayw yeah, im able to connect to the server, but i can't properly make requests to the server
2020-07-11 00:27:17 kayw molly-brown keeps hitting me with error code 40
2020-07-11 00:28:28 makeworld Why don't you set up your own server and look at the logs?
2020-07-11 00:28:34 kayw i am
2020-07-11 00:28:42 makeworld Jetforce has good logs, idk if molly does
2020-07-11 00:28:51 makeworld K gtg now sorry, maybe I can help debug tomorrow
2020-07-11 00:29:15 kayw jetforce wasn't giving me anything in terms of logs
2020-07-11 00:29:21 luna cya makeworld
2020-07-11 00:29:56 kayw bye makeworld!
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2020-07-11 01:37:37 kayw whats the best way to generate a self-signed cert?
2020-07-11 01:46:09 kayw nvm
2020-07-11 01:46:36 kayw also, i finally got it working!!! now im getting code 53 instead of 40 and nothing in the error log
2020-07-11 01:49:00 makeworld kayw: Jetforce logs every single request to stdout
2020-07-11 01:49:15 kayw just noticed that!
2020-07-11 01:49:16 makeworld Also I made a post about generating a self signed cert if that helps
2020-07-11 01:51:24 kayw oh?
2020-07-11 01:51:28 kayw ill check it out
2020-07-11 01:52:07 makeworld 👍🏼
2020-07-11 01:52:12 kayw ugh, damnit
2020-07-11 01:52:20 kayw self signed certs dont work right in av98
2020-07-11 01:52:29 kayw av98 wont connect until 1am my time
2020-07-11 01:52:41 makeworld ??
2020-07-11 01:53:01 makeworld Your timezone shouldn't matter. It would matter if your computer clock was wrong though
2020-07-11 01:53:05 kayw https://i.salejandro.me/Bi4cNg.png i am using a self signed cert
2020-07-11 01:53:14 makeworld Hmmm
2020-07-11 01:53:18 makeworld K gtg again sorry
2020-07-11 01:53:22 kayw cya
2020-07-11 02:18:09 kayw ...aaaaand now i dont know why im getting 53
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2020-07-11 02:30:54 kayw i did it!
2020-07-11 02:30:56 kayw fuck yeah
2020-07-11 02:32:37 kayw ok extremely basic client achieved
2020-07-11 02:32:53 kayw its not printing links buuuuuut, i should get that soon
2020-07-11 02:44:34 luna gg
2020-07-11 02:44:55 luna :D
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2020-07-11 17:59:24 dkibi using mosh on a high speed train is so much fun. another reason for havin txt focused protocols ^^
2020-07-11 18:04:23 companion_cube the only way to survive the internet connexion on a train trip
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2020-07-11 18:06:13 login how did you scharge dkibi
2020-07-11 18:06:16 login also, welcome coleman
2020-07-11 18:06:21 login do you use the colemak keyboard?
2020-07-11 18:06:35 dkibi ^^
2020-07-11 18:06:45 coleman hello
2020-07-11 18:06:47 dkibi scharge?
2020-07-11 18:06:57 coleman No, but i have considered it haha
2020-07-11 18:19:42 ▬▬▶ natpen has joined #gemini
2020-07-11 18:20:33 login hello koleman
2020-07-11 18:20:37 login hello natpen
2020-07-11 18:28:02 djph 'afternoon all. Stumbled across the project kind of by accident today. Kind of an intriguing concept; though the site sails a little above my head. Is there a 'for dummies' version of how it all works?
2020-07-11 18:29:31 @ben ccccccgednderdjtfejglddtlrlcgujrcutjvrkttcdv
2020-07-11 18:29:59 @ben oops
2020-07-11 18:31:08 @ben it's an alternate protocol somewhere in between gopher and the web in terms of bloat
2020-07-11 18:32:06 djph kind of a big gap, isn't it?
2020-07-11 18:34:12 coleman yeah but it's way closer to the gopher side
2020-07-11 18:34:31 coleman djph: have you downloaded a browser yet?
2020-07-11 18:35:02 djph played around with the av-98 browser / terminal example from teh website, still wrapping my head around the options, etc.
2020-07-11 18:35:46 djph guess I'd better find a server too ... and learn the markup
2020-07-11 18:37:06 coleman i was just a kid, but i do remmeber surfing the web in 1995
2020-07-11 18:37:21 coleman and the current gemini space takes me back :)
2020-07-11 18:38:24 djph parents didn't get it for us until a couple of years later (97 or 98 -- It was definitely before we had a win98 machine though)
2020-07-11 18:39:01 djph ugh, AOL and "You've Got Mail!" ... thank the maker I fell in with Linux not too long thereafter.
2020-07-11 18:40:51 coleman I don't run my own gemini server yet, I just let envs.net do it for me
2020-07-11 18:42:36 djph more a thing to do so I don't puke all over someone else's box while I'm getting my feet wet
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2020-07-11 20:10:00 makeworld Does anyone know any python gemini libraries?
2020-07-11 20:10:03 makeworld I just know gusmobile
2020-07-11 20:25:19 makeworld Which seems to be hacky
2020-07-11 21:04:22 makeworld tomasino: Do you know how to use gnuplot?
2020-07-11 21:08:29 makeworld I'm trying to figure it out and it's annoying the hell out of me
2020-07-11 21:13:28 kensanata Heh.
2020-07-11 21:13:33 kensanata Gnuplot can be great.
2020-07-11 21:13:53 kensanata If your needs are along the lines of https://alexschroeder.ch/pdfs/2d6-Math.pdf I can help...
2020-07-11 21:14:00 makeworld Yeah it seems like it, but it's so annoying right now, with Python anyway
2020-07-11 21:14:10 kensanata Hm.
2020-07-11 21:15:20 makeworld I have a list of dates, and two lists of numbers. And I just want to make two lines, by date
2020-07-11 21:15:34 makeworld I need to find a decent guide on how to use it at all
2020-07-11 21:16:59 kensanata something like https://stackoverflow.com/questions/17791828/gnuplot-date-time-in-x-axis#17792758 isn't working?
2020-07-11 21:19:22 kensanata The basic workflow is this, from my very limited experience: prepare the data in a text file, write another text file with the plotting commands. Important stuff is "set term png" for image output, and the "plot" command at the end.
2020-07-11 21:19:38 makeworld That would work yeah, I just don't know the commands to get it to understand my data
2020-07-11 21:20:22 kensanata Do you want to send me a few lines of data and I'll take a look?
2020-07-11 21:22:17 makeworld It's just the GUS historical data
2020-07-11 21:22:25 makeworld I've isolated each cell easily in Python
2020-07-11 21:22:47 makeworld So I can put it in any format I want when I give it to gnuplot, tab separated, comma separated, whatever
2020-07-11 21:24:15 kensanata I don't know where to get the historical data so I'm just going to make up some dates and two numbers, dates on the x axis, numbers on the y axis, with two lines, one for each set of numbers?
2020-07-11 21:29:00 makeworld That sounds right yeah
2020-07-11 21:29:19 makeworld But I'm doing this with matplotlib right now and it's going okay, I don't want you to go to any trouble
2020-07-11 21:29:35 makeworld The disadvantage is that you won't get ASCII graphs is all
2020-07-11 21:30:35 kensanata Ah
2020-07-11 21:30:36 kensanata OK.
2020-07-11 21:37:06 login matplotlib is the best one
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2020-07-11 21:43:29 luna hello again
2020-07-11 21:45:23 makeworld https://portal.mozz.us/gemini/makeworld.gq/gus-graph/graph.png?raw=1
2020-07-11 21:45:38 makeworld gemini://makeworld.gq/gus-graph/
2020-07-11 21:46:19 luna mailing list has been a bit quiet :o
2020-07-11 21:46:30 makeworld Yeah
2020-07-11 21:46:39 makeworld kensanata: It's up now ^^
2020-07-11 21:47:07 luna i might try hosting a simple gemini page soon
2020-07-11 21:47:46 makeworld Ayy
2020-07-11 21:47:48 makeworld Sounds good
2020-07-11 21:52:54 natpen makeworld: that looks great!
2020-07-11 21:53:05 makeworld Oh hello!
2020-07-11 21:53:10 makeworld Glad you think so
2020-07-11 21:53:19 makeworld Guess I don't have to email now :)
2020-07-11 21:54:10 makeworld We'll see if my cron-fu is good enough, but it should automatically update every day
2020-07-11 21:55:05 makeworld kensanata: Looks obvious when you joined Gemini ;)
2020-07-11 21:56:32 kensanata Hah.
2020-07-11 21:56:58 kensanata Also, new Gemini Wiki features! gemini://alexschroeder.ch:1968/page/2020-07-11%20Virtual%20Hosting
2020-07-11 21:58:43 kensanata makeworld: To think that I wasn't too excited about Gemini a year ago... https://alexschroeder.ch/wiki/2019-06-21_Solderpunk's_Gemini_Protocol
2020-07-11 22:00:16 luna gotta go, i'll be back shortly
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2020-07-11 22:01:28 kensanata And I gotta go to bed...
2020-07-11 22:01:34 kensanata Midnight over here...
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2020-07-11 22:30:57 makeworld Trying to think about a good Gemini app idea...
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2020-07-11 23:53:14 makeworld Trying to think about a good Gemini app idea...
2020-07-12 00:14:30 luna i've been too, i'm kind of stumped
2020-07-12 00:34:28 luna has anyone made a pastebin using gemini yet?
2020-07-12 00:35:15 epoch not that I know of, but getting stuff pasted into it would be a little awkward
2020-07-12 00:35:46 luna yeah, true
2020-07-12 00:35:48 epoch might try a link shortener (inb4 link shorteners are evil)
2020-07-12 00:35:55 epoch since gemini can do redirects
2020-07-12 00:36:45 epoch are there gemini clients that will follow inter-protocol redirects?
2020-07-12 00:37:14 luna i'm glad it can do redirects, makes inputting queries work well too
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2020-07-12 10:25:21 kensanata 🚀🚀
2020-07-12 10:44:07 login hi kensanata
2020-07-12 10:52:26 kensanata Two things that keep astonishing me: hot water showers and phone cameras.
2020-07-12 10:54:35 kensanata Also, I've started writing my blog posts in Gemini format. So strange, I used to be all about the small typographical flourishes, experimenting with increased letter spacing and small caps for emphasis and the like. And now there's just nothing at all, and it's OK, too.
2020-07-12 10:55:29 kensanata Starting to really get into quoting ‘this’, “that”, «the other», and ｢fancy stuff｣.
2020-07-12 10:55:31 @tomasino :)
2020-07-12 10:59:08 kensanata tomasino: If you do setup Gemini Wiki, I'd be interested in following along and fixing any upcoming issues.
2020-07-12 10:59:24 @tomasino Awesome!
2020-07-12 10:59:35 kensanata I finally added a form of virtual hosting, and passwords ("tokens") per wiki space, i.e. also per virtual host.
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2020-07-12 11:56:39 kensanata tomasino: And I'm really interested in improving the documentation, so if you find anything confusing in https://alexschroeder.ch/cgit/gemini-wiki/about/ let me know and I'll try to improve it.
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2020-07-12 15:18:29 dkibi ganh 2min after I put up the request for suggestsions for tty games I start to listen to a podcast about Jon Ingold (https://www.idlethumbs.net/designernotes/episodes/jon-ingold-part-1)
2020-07-12 15:18:50 dkibi of course I never really tried parser based IF and that would work very well on a tty
2020-07-12 16:24:36 dozens dkibi: nethack has always been kind of complicated to me too, but dcss seems more simple, has a great tutorial, and has been a lot of fun to me: https://crawl.tildeverse.org/
2020-07-12 16:29:21 m68k yeah that's definitely how i feel. I played nethack for a while maaaany years ago, then found dcss, and played that with graphics for many years
2020-07-12 16:48:59 makeworld Lol @ a link shortener, I'm pretty sure Solderpunk has explicitly
2020-07-12 16:49:18 makeworld talked about not liking them and wanting to make them unnecessary from a protocol perspective
2020-07-12 16:49:38 makeworld luna's offline now but nothing wrong with going for it ofc
2020-07-12 16:49:58 makeworld We might just have to watch Solderpunk twitch and force a smile ;)
2020-07-12 16:50:40 makeworld Also I figured out my gemini app idea, I'll be building it this week :D
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2020-07-12 17:13:12 makeworld brainfunnel what's good
2020-07-12 17:13:37 djph there has to be a better way to write pages ...
2020-07-12 17:17:42 makeworld Wdym?
2020-07-12 17:18:30 djph vim guy, have forcibly wrapped at 72 characters for years. The "paragraphs are actually runon lines" doesn't play well with that
2020-07-12 17:18:50 makeworld Ah yeah, it's a bit of change
2020-07-12 17:19:01 makeworld It wouldn't be hard to write a tool that converts them for you though
2020-07-12 17:19:22 makeworld One regex I think
2020-07-12 17:19:41 makeworld Well lots of things are *one* regex lol
2020-07-12 17:19:43 djph somewhat there already ... just have to make sure I'm not missing anything obvious (like preformatted text)
2020-07-12 17:20:07 makeworld Yeah, that would be the harder case to handle, not touching anything in those blocks
2020-07-12 17:20:37 makeworld Off the top of my head the basic regex would replace any newline that didn't have another newline on either side of it with a space
2020-07-12 17:21:20 djph although, I did hack piping to lpr into av98 because I was bored
2020-07-12 17:21:31 djph yeah, that's what I'm thinking too
2020-07-12 17:21:38 makeworld Like you printed gemini sites?
2020-07-12 17:21:43 djph although I went with "any newline followed by a-z
2020-07-12 17:22:12 djph yeah, because its easier to read the gemtext markup on paper ...
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2020-07-12 17:23:54 ⚡ djph has know about "gemini" for like 20 hours, and has slept 8 of them.
2020-07-12 17:24:25 djph err, "read the gemtext intro on paper"
2020-07-12 17:24:49 brainfunnel mood
2020-07-12 17:25:09 makeworld Oh haha
2020-07-12 17:25:14 brainfunnel ive only been 'in' on gemini for a week, got castor and started following spacewalk and capcom
2020-07-12 17:25:29 makeworld Real geminauts only browse through paper
2020-07-12 17:26:23 brainfunnel its cool as hell. joined IRC again 4 real when I found out about this and the gopher channel
2020-07-12 17:27:17 makeworld Same here, this is basically my only IRC channel
2020-07-12 17:27:24 djph It seems to follow in the way that I remember people talked about "the web" 30 years ago
2020-07-12 17:28:21 djph I'm all over the place, from helping Linux converts to poking around at microcontrollers and such
2020-07-12 17:28:34 djph and this newest 'gemini' rabbithole
2020-07-12 17:33:50 djph now all I need is a lineprinter and greenbar
2020-07-12 17:36:15 kensanata Haha
2020-07-12 17:42:29 login Ruby Gemini
2020-07-12 17:43:30 djph can't send my (embarassingly hacky) code to the guy who wrote av98 though, since I'm slow and haven't figured out the whole tilde thing yet
2020-07-12 17:44:46 login what is av98 though
2020-07-12 17:45:20 djph gemini client
2020-07-12 17:45:59 mhj Heyo Geminarz, what's new on with you cats on Mars
2020-07-12 17:55:25 djph mhj: not a whole lot here. Still wrapping my head around the program and all
2020-07-12 18:11:38 dkibi dozens: I will give it a try
2020-07-12 18:24:29 ⚡ kensanata writes little Perl scripts for uploading and downloading...
2020-07-12 18:31:31 mhj Ahh I see djph. I have the same feeling.
2020-07-12 18:31:47 mhj I use the molly gemini server.
2020-07-12 18:32:10 mhj And for browsing, either av-98 or bombadillo
2020-07-12 18:41:38 djph mhj: yeah, i grabbed av98 - it seems nice enough. Dunno what server I'm gonna use ... I didn't see molly in the (manually curated) list
2020-07-12 18:41:54 djph oh wait .. "The Unsinkable Molly Brown" ?
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2020-07-12 18:45:02 lukee evening all
2020-07-12 18:48:20 makeworld Afternoon
2020-07-12 18:48:23 ⚡ makeworld tips hat
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2020-07-12 19:01:16 dozens i mostly use av98 and prefer its UI, but also like bombadillo for that multiprotocol support
2020-07-12 19:02:49 lukee makeworld: I've got a first POC of using the new -m and -t flags from gemget
2020-07-12 19:03:02 lukee seems to work nicely thanks!
2020-07-12 19:03:25 lukee I just need to build a bit of UI so the user can set them him/herself
2020-07-12 19:04:57 makeworld Nice!
2020-07-12 19:06:10 lukee so images can now be displayed in GemiNaut directly. Probably will prompt other binary files to be saved to a user chosen location
2020-07-12 19:06:11 ⚡ xq pokes makeworld
2020-07-12 19:06:24 lukee or user/downloads
2020-07-12 19:06:27 @xq can you find motivation for me? :D
2020-07-12 19:06:44 makeworld Is this about my latest issue(s)? Lol
2020-07-12 19:06:47 @xq yep :D
2020-07-12 19:06:50 @xq but in general
2020-07-12 19:06:59 @xq i'd like to continue, but there's so much interesting stuff going on
2020-07-12 19:07:28 makeworld Continue with what?
2020-07-12 19:08:38 @xq Kristall development
2020-07-12 19:08:43 @xq i derailed into side projects atm
2020-07-12 19:08:57 makeworld Ah ok
2020-07-12 19:09:00 @xq i kinda feel that i owe the last update, but there's still planned stuff missing that i wanted to do
2020-07-12 19:09:19 makeworld The cert stuff is really awesome btw, the little shield icon in the sidebar, the ability to import, etc
2020-07-12 19:09:26 @xq thanks :)
2020-07-12 19:09:31 @xq i put a lot of thought into that
2020-07-12 19:09:48 @xq but in the end, it was the interface that felt natural for this
2020-07-12 19:09:51 makeworld It shows :)
2020-07-12 19:10:04 makeworld Something to think about for Amfora...
2020-07-12 19:10:07 @xq and you have all kind of sanity checks in there
2020-07-12 19:11:41 makeworld Like what?
2020-07-12 19:12:13 makeworld Sorry just don't know what you mean
2020-07-12 19:13:38 @xq hehe
2020-07-12 19:13:42 @xq didn't you notice?
2020-07-12 19:14:01 @xq Kristall makes sure you don't leave client certs on when switching hosts
2020-07-12 19:14:11 @xq or leaving the "valid area" for that certificate
2020-07-12 19:16:06 makeworld Oh yeah, I did
2020-07-12 19:16:13 makeworld You said "you" so I thought you mean me lol
2020-07-12 19:16:17 makeworld But yeah, that's a great idea
2020-07-12 19:16:26 @xq thanks for hinting twemoji
2020-07-12 19:21:55 makeworld 👍
2020-07-12 19:22:02 makeworld You're welcome!
2020-07-12 19:35:55 lukee makeworld: I think I may have another suggestion for gemget
2020-07-12 19:36:06 makeworld What's that?
2020-07-12 19:36:13 lukee which is a new -i flag for "interactive"
2020-07-12 19:36:41 lukee my main motivation is that the progress bar is incredibly chatty in stderr
2020-07-12 19:36:55 lukee and makes parsing the output awkward.
2020-07-12 19:37:07 lukee So in my local copy I just disabled it
2020-07-12 19:37:36 lukee but perhaps some users in some contexts find it useful, and there might be other interactive elements you might put in the future
2020-07-12 19:37:58 lukee so -i would turn on these interactive/feedback elements, otherwise it is just data focussed
2020-07-12 19:38:02 lukee what do you think?
2020-07-12 19:38:47 makeworld Hm
2020-07-12 19:38:58 makeworld I think it might be better to just have a flag for the progress bar
2020-07-12 19:40:07 makeworld Also it shouldn't hinder parsing the the output, because the progress bar is on stdout while other messages are on stderr aren't they?
2020-07-12 19:42:09 lukee maybe you're right (about it being on stdout not stderr) but I still have to parse both as the headers are in stdout and the other messages in stderr
2020-07-12 19:42:23 makeworld Ah
2020-07-12 19:42:29 makeworld Yeah it's a bit messy
2020-07-12 19:42:33 makeworld Sorry about that
2020-07-12 19:42:37 makeworld I made a new issue
2020-07-12 19:43:04 lukee anyway its just the progress bar so maybe a -p for enable the progress bar would be fine
2020-07-12 19:45:18 makeworld Yeah sounds good
2020-07-12 19:45:28 lukee 👍
2020-07-12 19:47:08 lukee it seems to me command line applications need 3 output channels not 2
2020-07-12 19:47:16 lukee stdout: the content
2020-07-12 19:47:22 lukee stderr: the errors
2020-07-12 19:47:32 lukee stdmeta: the metadata!
2020-07-12 19:48:37 lukee but who am I to cast aspersions on The Unix Way (TM)
2020-07-12 20:04:36 kensanata lukee: I just wrote a script that prints some info on stderr and the data on stdout so that redirecting the output will do the right thing... I feel the pain!
2020-07-12 20:09:38 ⚡ lukee looks in at the command line world as an infrequent visitor
2020-07-12 20:10:19 lukee kensanata: yes it seems if you want piping and redirection etc you need to keep stdout clean in general for just the data
2020-07-12 20:11:01 lukee so then the poor stderr channel gets overloaded with stuff that is part of the stream interaction, not just for errors
2020-07-12 20:11:39 lukee is there a canonical way or idiom to deal with this?
2020-07-12 20:12:22 kensanata I think the canonical way is just that: anything that you want users to see even though your stuff runs in a pipe goes to stderr.
2020-07-12 20:12:51 kensanata Then control verbosity using a flag like --verbose, -v, -vv, or -vvv for increasing levels of verbosity.
2020-07-12 20:13:01 kensanata Like I use --log_level=1 to 4
2020-07-12 20:13:27 lukee hmmm
2020-07-12 20:14:15 lukee and what about if there is important information for the client to have to interpret and maybe act on
2020-07-12 20:14:57 lukee are these such messages mixed in with the general stream log?
2020-07-12 20:18:14 lukee but I'm sort of surprised that stderr is generally used as a messaging channel not just for things that go wrong
2020-07-12 20:24:53 makeworld Yeah it's kinda weird
2020-07-12 20:25:09 makeworld It only needs to work that way if your app needs piping
2020-07-12 20:28:04 lukee so its more like stdbackchannel not stderr!?
2020-07-12 20:28:41 lukee and then exit codes do the formal notification or errors?
2020-07-12 20:29:11 lukee or errors -> of errors
2020-07-12 20:34:01 makeworld I guess... idk even apps that don't use piping tend to output debug info there
2020-07-12 20:34:08 makeworld Maybe it's more like stddebug lol
2020-07-12 20:34:27 lukee stdratsnest :)
2020-07-12 20:35:39 lukee I'm being mean - at least there is the expectation that the user can assemble apps together in ways not anticipated by the original authors
2020-07-12 20:35:53 lukee which has a lot to be said for it
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2020-07-12 20:45:42 makeworld Yeah, pipes are amazing
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2020-07-13 03:48:55 Nalaph_ does anyone have a link to where I can find a list of gemini servers?
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2020-07-13 03:57:24 luna Nalaph_: gemini://gus.guru/known-hosts
2020-07-13 03:58:02 Nalaph thanks
2020-07-13 04:00:25 Nalaph Sorry, I'm looking for actual Gemini server software, not known hosts
2020-07-13 04:01:05 luna gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/software/ has a good list
2020-07-13 04:09:13 Nalaph how strange; Bombadillo doesn't display all the links on gemini.circumlunar.space
2020-07-13 04:09:19 Nalaph if I open the page in Geminaut it works fine
2020-07-13 04:11:40 Nalaph Thanks
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2020-07-13 06:28:07 kensanata Those client certificates continue to perplex me. I'm thinking that on the server side I might need SSL_verify_mode SSL_VERIFY_PEER with a custom SSL_verify_callback, but that doesn't seem to work: the server keeps not seeing the client cert.
2020-07-13 07:28:45 kensanata Oh wow. I got a stand-alone example to work.
2020-07-13 07:28:59 kensanata Tears of joy! 😭 😭 😭 😭
2020-07-13 08:13:38 kensanata gemini://alexschroeder.ch/2020-07-13_Client_Certificates_and_IO%3a%3aSocket%3a%3aSSL_(Perl)
2020-07-13 09:13:17 @tomasino Nalaph: did you specify gemini:// in bombadillo? it may have defaulted to the gopher version
2020-07-13 09:22:11 kensanata tomasino: I've had somebody run into the same problem on my site using Elpher: those Gopher+Gemini clients are confusing people! :D
2020-07-13 09:46:06 djph mornin'
2020-07-13 09:53:40 login morning djph
2020-07-13 10:07:58 kensanata yo
2020-07-13 10:09:31 djph wrapping my head around this slowly. Have to remember how to make TLS certs ... don't want to put a server "on the internet" without first playing around on a dev server
2020-07-13 10:13:07 kensanata I added a "cert" target to my Makefile so I wouldn't have to remember it every time. :)
2020-07-13 10:13:32 kensanata If you need a command line, I can paste what I use...
2020-07-13 10:13:49 djph nice. I mean, it's only gonna be self-signed ("regular" stuff is all handled by certbot)
2020-07-13 10:13:58 kensanata Sure.
2020-07-13 10:14:58 djph not hard, just off in lala land with it :) maybe tonight after work
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2020-07-13 14:14:15 kensanata I finally have a working example of how to use client certificates to limit Gemini Wiki editing... https://alexschroeder.ch/cgit/gemini-wiki/about/#client-certificates
2020-07-13 14:21:18 login good work
2020-07-13 14:21:21 login are you alex schroeder?
2020-07-13 14:21:38 login from ch==switzerland?
2020-07-13 14:22:45 tadzik yay, Perl :)
2020-07-13 14:23:47 djph neat kensanata
2020-07-13 14:27:30 @ben yay .ch!
2020-07-13 14:28:28 kensanata Yeah!
2020-07-13 14:28:50 kensanata I am tempted to say "I am Kensanata from Chrono Trigger!"
2020-07-13 14:28:57 @ben i miss .ch
2020-07-13 14:34:06 login you can still go, but it's v expensive
2020-07-13 14:34:25 login for some reason chf is very overvalued
2020-07-13 14:38:50 kensanata It's like gold. People believe that in a crisis, the CHF will be strong, so money flows in, and the value goes up.
2020-07-13 14:39:07 kensanata Sucks to be exporting from Switzerland, but good for the financial industry. It's a constant struggle.
2020-07-13 14:51:29 login switzerland exports watches and stuff though
2020-07-13 14:51:36 login ABB is in switzerland (electrical switch company)
2020-07-13 14:52:14 login sounds like everybody in switzerland should sell their chf and have their money in a foreign currency account
2020-07-13 14:52:46 kensanata Nah, we know that in a crisis people will push the CHF up...
2020-07-13 14:53:30 kensanata Watches work because they're luxury items and are therefore far too expensive. That's why it's hard to make a business selling cheap Swiss watches. They would never be cheap enough.
2020-07-13 14:55:00 kensanata Not sure about ABB. After all, it used to be BBC but then they got bought by the Swedes, not sure what caused the BBC fall. I'm thinking too much manufacturing and not enough engineering? These days all the big halls in Baden have other uses. ABB is more brains than turbines and generators, now.
2020-07-13 14:55:10 kensanata At least from my perspective. What do you think?
2020-07-13 14:55:33 login i know abb relays are used in power plants
2020-07-13 14:56:43 @ben idk about abb but i miss sbb
2020-07-13 14:56:51 login what do you know, rolex's website has an EV certificate
2020-07-13 14:57:05 kensanata Hm, not sure. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown,_Boveri_%26_Cie#Reorganization_of_Brown_Boveri_in_1970 doesn't mention anything in particular.
2020-07-13 14:57:12 login are swiss federal railways good?
2020-07-13 14:57:25 @ben yes
2020-07-13 14:57:31 kensanata login: Second only to the Japanese.
2020-07-13 15:07:41 login so the japanese are number 1?
2020-07-13 15:07:48 login why are japanese watches not that popular then?
2020-07-13 15:08:05 login it just seems weird that switzerland is so "trusted" with respect to chf
2020-07-13 15:08:18 login doesn't seem like people want chf to buy stuff made in switzerland at all
2020-07-13 15:08:35 login it's just like the thing people buy because they know others will buy it too
2020-07-13 15:12:22 kensanata Except in the case of parking your money, you actually win something...
2020-07-13 15:12:43 login but the US gets those lists now
2020-07-13 15:12:46 login it's not the haven it once was
2020-07-13 15:13:19 kensanata Yeah, but last time I heard Switzerland still manages two thirds of all the wealth of private people in the world.
2020-07-13 15:13:41 kensanata That's an amazing amount of dictators and corrupt men putting their money into our vaults
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2020-07-13 15:15:54 kensanata https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/business/deloitte-survey_switzerland-remains-top-international-wealth-management-hub/44111112
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2020-07-13 15:16:12 kensanata Gotta find a number to compare those $1.84 trillion to.
2020-07-13 15:21:04 kensanata https://www.nzz.ch/articleET2NZ-1.96411?reduced=true says that Swiss banks manage 9% of global assets, CHF 4.4E12 in Switzerland, and if you include the assets managed by Swiss banks abroad, you get CHF 6.9E12.
2020-07-13 15:21:19 kensanata And that was 2007
2020-07-13 15:26:18 @ben wow that's wild
2020-07-13 15:41:00 kensanata Merrill Lynch wrote in 2008 that "global HNWI wealth totaled US$40.7 trillion", let's make it CHF 40E12, so my initial statement was really far off.
2020-07-13 15:41:24 kensanata https://web.archive.org/web/20081230124219/http://www.ml.com/media/100502.pdf
2020-07-13 15:42:31 kensanata Anyway, I think I need to go for a little walk outside while the sun's up. CU all tomorrow. :)
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2020-07-13 15:43:56 acdw hello star people
2020-07-13 15:44:18 acdw I was lazy this weekend and didn't get to hack on bollux...so the 2 people who use it are out of luck for now :P
2020-07-13 15:46:03 acdw s/star people/starchildren
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2020-07-13 19:53:17 djph hooray, I figured out how to get molly-brown to run, and got a text file to be readable
2020-07-13 19:53:37 djph although it's a bit wonky in how it loads. I must've missed a setting somewhere
2020-07-13 19:55:07 djph ... ah, there we go, "index" is named wrong. Easy enough
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2020-07-13 20:58:53 kevinsan hi, does anyone know how often GUS crawls sites that are already in its index?
2020-07-13 20:59:56 makeworld Roughly daily
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2020-07-13 21:27:06 djph now to figure out a better way of writing gemtext files ...
2020-07-13 21:30:59 kevinsan what's your current way of writing gemtext files?
2020-07-13 21:32:47 djph vim
2020-07-13 21:34:31 kevinsan there is no better way
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2020-07-13 21:36:56 djph ^ this is the way.
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2020-07-13 21:37:15 djph However, I have vim wrap at 72 characters, which gemtext spec is at odds with.
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2020-07-13 21:40:39 natpen kevinsan: It used to be more like daily, like makeworld said, but GUS currently is getting more like 4-6 day recency for updates to existing content in the index. It actually takes several days to even run the crawl now! I started a crawl this morning though, so hopefully will have a new index in a day or two.
2020-07-13 21:44:35 kevinsan I'm surprised by how long it takes - how many sites/pages are you visiting?
2020-07-13 21:46:25 natpen about 30k - but the majority come from a small number of domains that happen to all have long crawl_delays set in their robots.txt's, which GUS does its best to respect.
2020-07-13 21:48:25 kevinsan That's a shame - given hardware specs vs weight of content, I imagine crawls are a tiny fraction of resource usage.
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2020-07-13 21:49:35 @tomasino I use vim also, but with vim-pencil
2020-07-13 21:49:43 @tomasino :PencilSoft
2020-07-13 21:49:46 @tomasino Perfecto
2020-07-13 21:50:01 kevinsan I wonder if this is just prevailing web wisdom being incorrectly applied to gemini space?
2020-07-13 21:50:52 @tomasino crawl_delays well respected are great
2020-07-13 21:50:53 kevinsan I recently saw some discussion on avoiding bot access to servers, which seemed weird given that bad actor bots on the web relate to spam, which is pretty much meaningless here.
2020-07-13 21:51:23 @tomasino A big concern is web spiders sneaking in over proxies
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2020-07-13 21:53:09 kevinsan Again though, the actual hit to the server is so low. I agree that robots.txt should be respected, I just wonder if they inhibit the useful stuff for little gain.
2020-07-13 21:54:12 kevinsan I suppose I have only just spun up a server, perhaps I will eat my words in due course!
2020-07-13 22:07:37 natpen It possible to differentiate with robots.txt fwiw, as they're currently used (which is also just a convention, so always open to new ideas/discussion) - you could do "*" crawl_delay of something high, or "proxy" crawl_delay of something high, and "gus" crawl_delay of something lower. The discussion of "proxy" UA was light discussion... so not really sure if anyone would respect it though :)
2020-07-13 22:20:09 kevinsan natpen, if I don't specify a robots.txt file, will you simply crawl as fast as you can, or should I provide one to effectively tell you it's ok to do so?
2020-07-13 22:22:04 natpen I think I default to 500ms!
2020-07-13 22:24:19 djph aw drat, av98 doesn't support mailto://
2020-07-13 22:31:29 kevinsan it looks quite hackable to add other protocol support - https://tildegit.org/solderpunk/AV-98/src/branch/master/av98.py#L307
2020-07-13 23:33:23 djph yeah, I hacked lpr into it already :)
2020-07-13 23:33:47 djph gotta get myself a tilde account somewhere so I can get a tildegit account and proper fork it...
2020-07-13 23:36:08 @ben i can make you a tildegit acct
2020-07-13 23:36:20 @ben or also i'm around to process signups on tilde.team :)
2020-07-13 23:36:42 @ben if u just want tildegit, pm me an email
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2020-07-14 01:53:25 kayw yaaaaaay, i got word wrapping working
2020-07-14 01:53:33 kayw and it does preformatted text just great
2020-07-14 01:53:58 kayw i just need to select a name sooner or later, get links working and some other things, and my client will be complete
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2020-07-14 02:29:25 luna i'm still thinking of hosting who knows what over gemini, just have to get past freebsd jails throwing me for a loop lol
2020-07-14 02:40:33 Nalaph Is konpeito.media down for anyone else or am I just having issues again/
2020-07-14 02:40:51 Nalaph I can hit the gopher but not the gemini
2020-07-14 02:44:17 luna gemini on that domain doesn't seem to be working for me either
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2020-07-14 02:59:14 kayw yeah i just tried it like, 30 mins ago
2020-07-14 02:59:16 kayw its down
2020-07-14 03:31:11 luna you talking about word wrapping convinced me to try making my own
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2020-07-14 06:12:13 luna ...and somehow i actually ended up managing to do it
2020-07-14 06:12:15 luna lol
2020-07-14 06:30:09 kensanata What did you do?
2020-07-14 06:48:00 luna simple text wrapping
2020-07-14 06:48:48 luna i'm probably more proud of it than i should be lol
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2020-07-14 07:30:55 @xq makeworld: sadly, tweemoji is utterly useless. it's not a font
2020-07-14 07:31:03 @xq it's svg icons :(
2020-07-14 07:33:09 @xq i could try embedding images in the documents
2020-07-14 07:33:31 @xq but i'm not really a fan of that, it would be against the "only text rendering" philosophy
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2020-07-14 09:39:17 djph xq: yes, "emoji" are utterly useless.
2020-07-14 09:44:04 kensanata Noooo!
2020-07-14 09:45:06 djph hi kensanata
2020-07-14 09:56:35 @xq djph: i love emojis, but as a font component, not as images embedded in text
2020-07-14 09:58:59 djph There is one locale, and it is "C" (I'm kidding, UTF-8 is alright)
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2020-07-14 11:09:40 kensanata I love custom emojis the way they are used in Mastodon. This is what will save us from adding a picture of every single word to Unicode 666.
2020-07-14 11:10:06 kensanata Already it is full of pictures of technological artifacts we no longer use.
2020-07-14 11:10:22 kensanata What will it be like in 10,000 years? Ludicrous.
2020-07-14 11:26:28 kensanata I think I'm going to start Gemini Wiki hosting on a new domain.
2020-07-14 11:27:16 kensanata Sometimes I wonder. How many domains are too many domains?
2020-07-14 11:27:28 kensanata That's going to be #10.
2020-07-14 11:33:28 kensanata The question of ports is still annoying me. I think I will add layers upon layers of code to Gemini Wiki until it starts serving all sorts of dope stuff under the hood.
2020-07-14 11:34:07 kensanata Like a kraken, it will proxy requests to Wikipedia, to my homepage, to communitywiki, and so on. It will be beautiful and terrifying.
2020-07-14 11:59:22 dkibi well there are regular scripts that use one ~one glyphe/word
2020-07-14 11:59:52 dkibi with emoji imho it's more that it's controled by apple/google/etc. that delegitmizes it
2020-07-14 12:02:23 djph kensanata: he-who-should-not-be-named of gemini.
2020-07-14 12:04:21 kensanata Hm. I think the Unicode board, and the process of getting new emojis added is pretty OK in as far as such big things go, but that's why little SVG graphics are so much better.
2020-07-14 12:04:22 kensanata I don't know whether you know how this works in Mastodon? Essentially every admin an add more emoji to their system, and the tiny SVG that defines it will get sent along with messages to other systems where users might not be able to type that emoji, but they'll still be able to read it.
2020-07-14 12:05:05 kensanata I think it's cool, federated, small scale, perfect. All it requires is that all the client authors be able to handle it (haha) ... but if you just display the short names, people are still going to be ok. :thinking-face:
2020-07-14 12:06:49 ine ><kensanata> I love custom emojis the way they are used in Mastodon.
2020-07-14 12:06:51 ine how does it do it?
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2020-07-14 12:08:23 @julienxx hi there!
2020-07-14 12:09:17 @julienxx I have issues accessing some capsules under my current OpenBSD, can you access geddit.pitr.ca without issues? I have SSL issues with Castor or AV-98 so I guess it's more a problem with my system.
2020-07-14 12:09:56 @tomasino lemme check from black
2020-07-14 12:10:10 rb100 works here for me
2020-07-14 12:10:12 @tomasino workis fine
2020-07-14 12:10:47 @julienxx Ok thanks, I'm running OpenBSD 6.7-current so there might be something with the latest LibreSSL (3.2.1 here)
2020-07-14 12:11:30 @tomasino i'm on 3.0.2
2020-07-14 12:11:31 kensanata Works from here, too
2020-07-14 12:11:44 @tomasino libressl, that is
2020-07-14 12:12:02 kensanata ine: I don't know the details. What I wrote is what little I know as a user.
2020-07-14 12:12:25 @tomasino for cgi's on jetforce, i just need them in a cgi-bin folder and executable?
2020-07-14 12:12:55 @julienxx that's how cgi works in molly-brown at least
2020-07-14 12:12:57 rb100 julienxx: i was on win10 with openssl 1.1.1f if that helps
2020-07-14 12:16:21 @tomasino hrm
2020-07-14 12:16:26 @tomasino oh, i need to return the header
2020-07-14 12:17:16 @tomasino hrm, that didn't work
2020-07-14 12:17:35 @tomasino um, anyone have an example of a working shell-script cgi?
2020-07-14 12:18:32 @julienxx I have one in python if you want
2020-07-14 12:18:36 @tomasino sure
2020-07-14 12:18:46 @julienxx I know I struggled with the crlf
2020-07-14 12:18:50 @tomasino yeah
2020-07-14 12:19:11 @tomasino printf "20\r\n" # isn't cutting it
2020-07-14 12:19:16 @tomasino i need more, i guess
2020-07-14 12:19:27 kensanata echo -e "20 text/plain\r\nhello\n"
2020-07-14 12:19:48 @tomasino maybe i need the text/gemini
2020-07-14 12:19:58 kensanata Yeah, MIME type for sure.
2020-07-14 12:20:06 @tomasino yep
2020-07-14 12:20:07 @tomasino that's it
2020-07-14 12:20:08 @tomasino gemini://tilde.black/cgi-bin/iching
2020-07-14 12:20:09 kensanata Also, printf is tricky if the text ever includes a %
2020-07-14 12:20:36 @julienxx tomasino: https://paste.sr.ht/~julienxx/4b3aabc22d1cb194146b3c1f7ff71255a48a6df6 it the 9til.de manpage browser
2020-07-14 12:20:59 @tomasino i made this yesterday, so i just tweaked it a bit for this script
2020-07-14 12:21:00 @tomasino https://github.com/jamestomasino/iching
2020-07-14 12:21:08 @tomasino i'll add my header stuff back in
2020-07-14 12:21:21 @julienxx using plan 9 rc shell I wasn't able to send a proper crlf so I switched to python
2020-07-14 12:25:18 @julienxx gemini yi jing is great idea tomasino!
2020-07-14 12:25:29 @tomasino i need to mess with the randomizer
2020-07-14 12:25:34 @tomasino it's too fast right now
2020-07-14 12:25:59 @tomasino the two hexagrams are generating very close together
2020-07-14 12:26:45 @tomasino od -An -N1 -i /dev/random | tr -d '[:space:]'
2020-07-14 12:26:57 @tomasino i was doing this on the interactive version, trusting the machine entropy
2020-07-14 12:27:13 @tomasino who's got a more reliable random function that's shell portable?
2020-07-14 12:28:35 @tomasino done
2020-07-14 12:28:43 @tomasino i just set RANDOM=$ and used $RANDOM
2020-07-14 12:28:44 @tomasino meh
2020-07-14 12:31:20 @tomasino there, fin.
2020-07-14 12:39:36 @tomasino and added a link on the homepage
2020-07-14 12:43:19 ⚡ tiwesdaeg waves
2020-07-14 12:43:40 ~tiwesdaeg I've been busy on a non tilde/gemini related project
2020-07-14 12:45:09 @tomasino hiya tiwesdaeg
2020-07-14 12:45:26 ~tiwesdaeg 9tilde #soon...
2020-07-14 12:45:41 ~tiwesdaeg tomasino: I watched that Eurovision movie
2020-07-14 12:46:13 ~tiwesdaeg lots of Iceland
2020-07-14 12:56:28 @tomasino i need to check it out
2020-07-14 12:56:29 @tomasino :)
2020-07-14 12:56:33 @tomasino gemini://tilde.black/cgi-bin/about-iching.gmi
2020-07-14 12:56:36 @tomasino i added an about page
2020-07-14 12:58:00 kensanata My Gemini sites are down as I try to build the kraken...
2020-07-14 13:01:17 @tomasino Release the kraken!
2020-07-14 13:03:35 kensanata Pictures are back up...
2020-07-14 13:03:47 kensanata But not much else.
2020-07-14 13:13:50 @ben julienxx: I think tls1.3 is broken in libressl 3.2
2020-07-14 13:28:55 @julienxx Might be, used to work fine on LibreSSL 3.2.0 though
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2020-07-14 13:35:14 mojisd hi
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2020-07-14 13:42:13 @tomasino my first plant harvest!
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2020-07-14 13:51:36 thewetcrab Hello, old time small intenet friends. I was just looking at some internet nostalgia and understand in the 'old days' when there was no Google, it was universities who ran mail servers, web servers, ftp servers etc.
2020-07-14 13:51:48 thewetcrab So I want to pose the question, why and how did we move away from universities running these services to putting them in the hands of large corporations?
2020-07-14 13:51:58 thewetcrab Does anyone have any thoughts or facts on this?
2020-07-14 13:55:53 companion_cube I imagine it's because large corporations weren't that large at first, and provided better service to people that were not just students?
2020-07-14 14:01:03 djph thewetcrab: "people are dumb" -- rather than learn it for themselves, they got in bed with google, AOL, Y!, etc.
2020-07-14 14:01:23 djph And let's face it, when GOOG, Y!, etc. came around; it wasn't the same as today
2020-07-14 14:02:22 djph gemini:// is essentially an identical -- go find out how to setup postfix, utilizing only gemini:// sites.
2020-07-14 14:02:31 djph *identical parallel
2020-07-14 14:07:28 thewetcrab companion_cube I think I am understanding what you are saying. I am also discussing this on #gopher and have reached the following thought …..
2020-07-14 14:07:50 thewetcrab We had universities providing services first, this allowed academic people and students to use the internet.
2020-07-14 14:07:51 thewetcrab Next as more people joined the internet it was the ISPs that came to provide these services to users.
2020-07-14 14:07:51 thewetcrab And as the internet grew more, perhaps people didn't have the internet at home (so now isp) but they may like to use for example email on public internet access computers, e.g. accessing the internet in a library. so the likes of gmail filled that role?
2020-07-14 14:08:46 djph thewetcrab: it'll vary by geographic region, but that's probably close enough
2020-07-14 14:10:48 companion_cube djph: that's elitist
2020-07-14 14:10:59 companion_cube "people are dumb" also apply to each one of us in other fields, I think
2020-07-14 14:11:24 companion_cube and no one has time to dig deeply into each thing they use
2020-07-14 14:12:03 djph companion_cube: am I (are we) not also "people" ?
2020-07-14 14:12:29 djph but yes, it was poor wording.
2020-07-14 14:12:40 companion_cube right :)
2020-07-14 14:13:02 companion_cube also, even people in the know jumped on the gmail train in the oughties
2020-07-14 14:13:09 companion_cube and enthusiastically so
2020-07-14 14:14:08 @tomasino "don't be evil"
2020-07-14 14:14:09 @tomasino :)
2020-07-14 14:14:25 djph ^ we all bought that hook,line,and sinker.
2020-07-14 14:14:38 djph s/bought/took/
2020-07-14 14:15:45 djph Although, I think many "in the know" only did it begrudgingly, as Google (et. al.) started deciding stuff like "oh, this small dotcom with a family of four on it isn't trustworthy"
2020-07-14 14:34:58 login You can ask ben the kinds of problems he had trying to get Gmail not to block messages as spam
2020-07-14 14:35:12 @ben I think they still mark me as spam
2020-07-14 14:35:14 login even though he was following DKIM, DMARC and whatever else
2020-07-14 14:35:35 login You just have to be big like Mailchimp, otherwise they don't trust you
2020-07-14 14:36:09 login They didn't like that you didn't put an "unsubscribe" link in your emails
2020-07-14 14:36:35 login and didn't use some kind of autoamtic unsubscribe thing that Google picks up and shows as a button inside Gmail
2020-07-14 14:36:39 @ben who's they and what emails are you talking about
2020-07-14 14:38:53 login they is gmail
2020-07-14 14:39:26 login outlook.com/hotmail is even worse... i can't even put a "whitelist" filter to let some emails pass through their spam filter
2020-07-14 14:39:43 kensanata Half the mailinglist I'm reading in my Junk folder.
2020-07-14 14:40:00 companion_cube I use posteo, it's reasonably trustable imho
2020-07-14 14:40:05 kensanata I get the feeling that protonmail.com in particular is hosed, even though I have *@protonmail.com in my whitelist.
2020-07-14 14:40:06 companion_cube but yeah, the gmail monoculture is sad :(
2020-07-14 14:40:11 kensanata And that's without Gmail!
2020-07-14 14:40:16 kensanata (Migadu)
2020-07-14 14:40:28 kensanata But I've set my spam filter to "paranoid" so there's that.
2020-07-14 14:41:11 login What is Migadu?
2020-07-14 14:41:17 login Gmail has a spam filter = paranoid?
2020-07-14 14:41:44 djph well, that sparked some discussion ...
2020-07-14 14:42:00 djph I "have" gmail, but it's mainly trash these days
2020-07-14 14:43:11 login Why doesn't Gmail just allow downloading old emails to a physical drive, and then continuing ith the next 15-17 GB afresh?
2020-07-14 14:43:29 login also, on mobile, there is no way to block Gmail ads
2020-07-14 14:43:32 login in the Gmail app
2020-07-14 14:43:50 login there is also no way to log into multiple Gmail accounts without "associating" each of them with the Android operating system
2020-07-14 14:43:57 login and even Windows is moving in this direction with their apps
2020-07-14 14:44:22 tadzik well, no reason to use the gmail app imo ;)
2020-07-14 14:45:21 login what do you propose to do on smartphone then?
2020-07-14 14:46:02 tadzik frankly, I don't even read my emails on my phone at all, but I do have my account added to whatever email client was preinstalled
2020-07-14 14:46:22 tadzik I don't use gmail, but I'm pretty sure you can just add a gmail account to any app you want
2020-07-14 14:48:25 tadzik oh, disclamer, perhaps important: I don't have google play services on my android phone, so the idea of "gmail associated with the OS" is not relevant in my case
2020-07-14 14:48:58 tadzik still, I'd think that you can login to google with the OS itself, but without setting it up with The Gmail App[tm], no?
2020-07-14 14:49:07 companion_cube gmail supports imaps, doesn't it?
2020-07-14 14:49:26 tadzik yep
2020-07-14 14:49:53 djph I use it with k9 mail ... but it's kind of a pain to do
2020-07-14 14:49:56 tadzik it is just a regular email account, just with some inane "security" features
2020-07-14 14:50:36 tadzik "oh no, you're now abroad, like every other week! Can't login through thunderbird anymore, but the exact same password in this browser I've never seen will do"
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2020-07-14 14:55:14 thewetcrab login You do know it is possible to download all you mail from gmail? If not let me know I'll try explain more.
2020-07-14 15:02:30 wgreenhouse login: gmail does allow downloading...just enable POP
2020-07-14 15:03:59 kensanata OK, I think my site is once again available, in slightly reduced form...
2020-07-14 15:04:45 kensanata I've packed the most important code from my Oddmuse-Gemini glue code in the config file of Gemini Wiki and now Gemini Wiki serves the Gemini part of my site...
2020-07-14 15:10:09 kensanata Hm. Apache on my site with SSL serving 443. The Gemini server on my site serving HTTPS via 1965. How to proxy one to the other? Something isn't working. ProxyPass / http://localhost:1965 cannot due because HTTPS; https://localhost:1965 also cannot do because HTTPS?
2020-07-14 15:11:32 kensanata I guess I want Rewrite...
2020-07-14 15:14:59 kensanata Nah, this is stupid. A regular redirect should do!
2020-07-14 15:15:37 kensanata Ah, except for /.well-known because of ACME gaaaa
2020-07-14 15:17:43 kensanata WTF is the Apache2 Debian Default Page doing here.
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2020-07-14 15:26:32 thewetcrab login I think mbox is the system/format for downloading emails
2020-07-14 15:32:05 kensanata I've downloaded all my Gmail in 2016 and started fresh.
2020-07-14 15:32:16 kensanata Time to do it again, soon (and not start fresh)
2020-07-14 15:32:52 thewetcrab I have plans to do the same. I'm just not sure what I would do with the mbox download or how I would manage / secure it......
2020-07-14 15:33:03 thewetcrab What did you do with your inbox download kensanata?
2020-07-14 15:39:22 kensanata thewetcrab: I put it on an external disk and forgot about it.
2020-07-14 15:39:28 kensanata Archives are overrated.
2020-07-14 15:39:45 kensanata These days I try to delete all the mail I read, at home in any case.
2020-07-14 15:40:07 kensanata I keep stuff that looks like corp comms, bills, receits, promises, that kind of stuff.
2020-07-14 15:40:11 thewetcrab Yeah sure I kind of agree, but I also feel like I might want to go back and delete things everyonce in w hile.
2020-07-14 15:50:00 djph thewetcrab: "secure" it by sticking it on a well labeled external drive (and a duplicate elsewhere), and then unplug the drive.
2020-07-14 15:53:57 thewetcrab encrypt and unplug? ha ha ??
2020-07-14 15:56:00 djph well, encryption is optional. I prefer the "physically keep it in a lockbox" approach
2020-07-14 16:00:53 kensanata Aaaand transjovian.org is up!
2020-07-14 16:11:33 djph nice
2020-07-14 16:11:48 djph I wonder if mine's accessible to the world ...
2020-07-14 16:15:52 rb100 /quit
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2020-07-14 16:17:19 @tomasino huzzah!
2020-07-14 16:17:22 @tomasino i fell asleep
2020-07-14 16:17:27 djph oops?
2020-07-14 16:17:42 @tomasino a bit
2020-07-14 16:17:44 @tomasino but, meh
2020-07-14 16:17:50 @tomasino i wfh and set my own hours
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2020-07-14 22:04:08 djph tomasino: i wfh; but don't get to set my own hours ... :(
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2020-07-14 22:19:40 @tomasino That's halfway awesome
2020-07-14 22:21:16 djph For the longest time I didn't mind it. 5A to 1P localtime ... though recent layoffs have meant one of the key US-shift guys is no longer there, and now it's coming all onto my shoulders
2020-07-14 22:22:20 @tomasino Blerg
2020-07-14 22:22:54 djph oh, i loved it - the UK-based team is a group of awesome people. I would've beaten the US team boss to death with his own left arm.
2020-07-14 22:23:11 @tomasino Today I worked 13-15, then some emails at 21:30-22:00
2020-07-14 22:24:40 djph hmm, I wonder if things work ... someone mind checking if gemini://gemini.djph.net/~gemini/ comes up?
2020-07-14 22:26:45 djph (i know, I'm oh so very not clever when it comes to naming)
2020-07-14 22:35:13 kevinsan "It works!"
2020-07-14 22:40:11 djph yay!
2020-07-14 22:40:22 djph I still remember how to port forward :D
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2020-07-14 22:51:53 acdw Hey yall, quick question: do you know if it'd be at all possible to write a 100% web-app, in-browser javascript gemini client?
2020-07-14 22:52:24 epoch it wouldn't work.
2020-07-14 22:52:35 epoch javascript can't do raw sockets
2020-07-14 22:52:45 epoch so you can't make a proper gemini request
2020-07-14 22:54:01 epoch the gemini servers would see "GET URL" instead of just "URL" as the request if you tries to use XMLRequest or whatever
2020-07-14 22:54:55 acdw I was afraid of that :/
2020-07-14 22:55:04 epoch unless those can be tricked into doing "weird" requests...
2020-07-14 22:55:11 acdw I *did* find this: https://github.com/digitalbazaar/forge
2020-07-14 22:55:12 epoch there /is/ a spot you put "GET" or "POST" or whaver
2020-07-14 22:55:22 epoch what would happen if you replaced those with the URL?
2020-07-14 22:55:24 acdw do you think there's a way that could work?
2020-07-14 22:55:43 epoch possibly, but it'd be a hack that might get patched at any time
2020-07-14 22:55:56 acdw TBH, I have very little javascript experience; I was kicking the tires on whether this'd be a decnt project to learn on
2020-07-14 22:56:22 acdw epoch: thanks so much for the advice. I'll play with it some more but won't hang my hat on it, as it were
2020-07-14 22:56:30 epoch that's javascript alright, but node doesn't run in a browser
2020-07-14 22:56:59 acdw ah. yep that might be the issue, lol
2020-07-14 22:57:19 epoch you know, more things going over HTTP just makes a larger attack surface for browser-based malware
2020-07-14 22:57:26 epoch hrm
2020-07-14 22:57:32 djph javascript can just die
2020-07-14 22:57:33 acdw I tried to just ... *load* it in a test HTML file, but it couldn't. I thought it might have to do with like, using a local file
2020-07-14 22:57:38 djph along with now-dead flash
2020-07-14 22:58:05 acdw djph: I'm not arguing there! I'm just stuck at work a lot and thought it'd be fun to program a gemini gateway
2020-07-14 22:58:57 epoch acdw: I have a non-100% gemini client attempt
2020-07-14 22:59:07 epoch it uses a server-side script to actually do the request
2020-07-14 22:59:28 epoch but does all the response parsing and handling in javascript
2020-07-14 22:59:34 acdw oh yes, that's I'm sure no problem. We have portal.mozz.us and proxy.vulpes.one in fact...
2020-07-14 22:59:49 acdw but the host I was playing with specifically didn't have any server-side scripting
2020-07-14 22:59:54 acdw or I don't think it does
2020-07-14 23:00:05 acdw thought I'd love to see your code!
2020-07-14 23:00:34 acdw I actually have to leave (leaving work ... sorry) but you can email me at acdw@acdw.net
2020-07-14 23:00:38 acdw thanks so much yall!!!
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2020-07-14 23:00:47 epoch ha.
2020-07-14 23:00:48 epoch kk
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2020-07-15 01:20:53 djph yay, my site's got a very basic amount of "stuff" now
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2020-07-15 01:32:36 luna nice little place you got there
2020-07-15 01:33:04 djph if I can remember to keep it updated, all the better
2020-07-15 01:33:19 djph (cue this time next month and I haven't written a thing)
2020-07-15 01:33:33 luna haha yeah, i have that problem a lot with things
2020-07-15 01:34:25 djph I certainly like the idea of it. I'm not sure I like it or "old style(tm)" static HTML better
2020-07-15 01:35:29 luna i love how easy gmi is to parse, but also do like plain html
2020-07-15 01:36:00 luna markdown always felt like the best compromise to me
2020-07-15 01:40:31 Sario528 Is there anyone here that's gotten Bombadillo running on termux?
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2020-07-15 01:45:31 djph luna: yeah, the _only_ thing I find marginally distasteful is the "paragraphs are long lines"
2020-07-15 01:45:44 djph Sario528: I have not tried that, what is it?
2020-07-15 01:46:23 luna yeah, it's kind of annoying when you're working in a text editor but i can see why it was chosen
2020-07-15 01:46:47 djph It makes processing on the browser side easier
2020-07-15 01:47:19 Sario528 bombadillo is a multi-protocol client that supports gemini, termux is an android terminal app
2020-07-15 01:47:41 djph I guess if I were earlier in on the project, I would ask how many people are expected to be accessing this on screens wider than ~80 characters
2020-07-15 01:47:46 djph :D
2020-07-15 01:50:21 luna i suppose the same could be said for people who access it on screens that display much less than 80 characters a line
2020-07-15 01:53:20 djph I s'pose an argument for 40 could be made
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2020-07-15 06:06:21 luna thinking of going with a basic distro and lxc/lxd instead of freebsd
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2020-07-15 07:57:41 kensanata 🚀🚀
2020-07-15 07:58:52 @julienxx 👨🚀🚀👩🚀
2020-07-15 07:59:04 kensanata Hah!
2020-07-15 08:03:03 kensanata Is there anybody here who knows about Let's Encrypt and switching an existing certificate for foo.bar to foo.bar and *.foo.bar? I'm getting a weird error message about the old cert being http01 and the new one requiring dns01 or something.
2020-07-15 08:08:09 luna i think you need to do a dns or tls challenge for wildcard certs
2020-07-15 08:08:12 luna https://letsencrypt.org/docs/challenge-types/
2020-07-15 08:14:37 kensanata luna: Ah, thanks. That seems relevant.
2020-07-15 08:18:04 kensanata Reading all that, I'm thinking perhaps I don't need Let's Encrypt certificates for a wildcard cert. 🤩
2020-07-15 08:32:48 kensanata Weird, somebody seems to be crawling my gopher UI
2020-07-15 08:33:11 kensanata Being very nice about that 5s crawl delay.
2020-07-15 08:33:33 @tomasino That's nice of them
2020-07-15 08:34:05 kensanata Hm, now that I look at my robots.txt I see that the craw delay is actually 10s!
2020-07-15 08:34:15 kensanata And I see them crawling history links as well...
2020-07-15 08:34:17 kensanata Hm.
2020-07-15 08:36:26 epoch since when did LE start doing wildcard certs?
2020-07-15 08:36:57 epoch oh. neat.
2020-07-15 08:50:23 kensanata Anybody know their way about lsof? There must be a better way to call it than lsof | grep :1965
2020-07-15 08:50:51 epoch I saw one of those the other day
2020-07-15 08:50:57 epoch lsof -i maybe?
2020-07-15 08:51:03 epoch TO THE MAN PAGE
2020-07-15 08:51:28 epoch lsof -i :port ?
2020-07-15 08:51:53 epoch yeah
2020-07-15 08:52:06 epoch /bin/sh: 1: lsof: not found
2020-07-15 08:52:08 epoch boo
2020-07-15 08:52:54 kensanata epoch: AAH! I must have tried it without the colon for a hundred times.
2020-07-15 08:52:56 kensanata Thanks!
2020-07-15 08:53:08 epoch np
2020-07-15 08:58:23 epoch https://mastodon.social/@climagic/104512824473130988
2020-07-15 08:58:37 epoch that's where my brain picked it up
2020-07-15 09:01:03 kensanata Nice
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2020-07-15 10:31:16 djph kensanata: I just add new domain names to my LE cert. it's just easier for me that way :/
2020-07-15 10:34:05 kensanata djph: Yeah, I'm coming around to that.
2020-07-15 10:37:26 djph dns-01 and wildcard would ultimately be easier (new djph.net? great, don't have to worry)
2020-07-15 10:37:40 djph but ... I update oh so very often ...
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2020-07-15 11:48:02 ~tiwesdaeg I keep a script file with my certbot command and tack on '-d domain.name' whenever I add a new one then run it again
2020-07-15 12:04:57 kensanata I use dehydrate myself... a shell script that takes all the domains from a text file so it's not that complicated to set it all up.
2020-07-15 12:24:09 kevinsan I use acme.sh (https://github.com/acmesh-official/acme.sh) - also a shell script & GPL
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2020-07-15 13:13:32 @ben I use certbot rfc2136 dns plugin
2020-07-15 13:13:41 @ben very handy
2020-07-15 13:15:45 natpen Morning everyone :) GUS is experiencing a rapid unscheduled disassembly! (hopefully followed by a rapid reassembly)
2020-07-15 13:21:09 kevinsan natpen, what provoked such destructive action?
2020-07-15 13:22:41 natpen oh, just the usual combination of lack of forethought and carelessness :P
2020-07-15 13:23:34 natpen I'm trying to make GUS do incremental crawls better so it can update much more frequently, but the new backlinks feature is hard to combine with that
2020-07-15 13:24:26 kevinsan what's your crawl/index infrastructure (did you roll your own?)
2020-07-15 13:26:22 natpen it's all homebuilt. it used to be so simple! <looks at it now, warily>
2020-07-15 13:27:14 natpen it's basically just a python crawler that builds a big whoosh (tf-idf, basically think elasticsearch/lucene on a small scale) index.
2020-07-15 13:28:30 kevinsan I feel your pain - I built http://kakapo.susa.net:8080/cfs/ and learned that search is harder than I realised.
2020-07-15 13:28:42 kevinsan So much code went into producing that simple index.
2020-07-15 13:31:07 natpen I believe it! Search is a much deeper problem than it appears at first glance. I think it's a really fun problem to work on though.
2020-07-15 13:31:48 natpen Your site is really interesting though, the idea of incorporating number of ublock hits is really interesting and creative!
2020-07-15 13:33:03 kensanata Hah, I hadn't seen that before. Very cool idea!
2020-07-15 13:34:03 kevinsan Yes, it works at least as well as I'd hoped, probably better. I did have a better index built, but had to change tack when Google started hampering uBlock Origin.
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2020-07-15 14:03:56 djph ugh google
2020-07-15 14:04:40 djph hm, gonna have to figure out a way to ensure mimetypes don't get wonky on the sig
2020-07-15 14:04:46 djph maybe change the filename...
2020-07-15 14:12:43 kensanata The idea of wiki namespaces, mixing both namespaces based on domain, and namespaces specified on the commandline, and mixing the two... perhaps that wasn't such a great idea. Argh!
2020-07-15 14:13:35 djph that sounds like it could get confounding
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2020-07-15 15:39:57 kensanata Aaahh! I think I did it.
2020-07-15 15:40:00 kensanata The tests pass.
2020-07-15 15:40:34 kensanata No comes the pudding-eating (or dog-food eating, more likely): will it work in production‽
2020-07-15 15:48:47 kevinsan Firefox Readability Mode via CLI: https://gitlab.com/gardenappl/readability-cli - this is something I wanted to write, no need to bother now! Might be useful for people here...
2020-07-15 16:06:02 kensanata kevinsan: Yeah, interesting!
2020-07-15 16:29:15 kevinsan The HTML it produces seems to work well with html2text. Using -width 5000 effectively outputs line-oriented markup, and the html2textrc parameters might even be useable to generate gemtext.
2020-07-15 16:57:03 kevinsan This gemini://gemini.susa.net/test.gmi is a BBC News article created via readbale piped through html2text configured to generate gemtext.
2020-07-15 16:57:05 kevinsan No post-processing at all.
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2020-07-15 18:03:25 makeworld Wohoo, Amfora is on the ssh kiosk!
2020-07-15 18:04:29 luna just saw that message, can't wait to try them out
2020-07-15 18:05:04 luna kind of made me wonder: how *do* you run a public ssh server?
2020-07-15 18:05:58 makeworld Well that part is easy, by default on most Linux servers the ssh daemon will always be running. And then you just make sure your IP and port 22 are publicly accessible
2020-07-15 18:06:32 makeworld What solderpunk is doing is more fancy, because he has a special SSH account that doesn't provide shell access, but just runs the kiosk program as soon as you access it
2020-07-15 18:07:00 luna does it just skip authentication?
2020-07-15 18:08:19 makeworld Yeah, there's no password, and instead of running /bin/bash on start, it runs ./kiosk or whatever
2020-07-15 18:08:47 makeworld But also be very careful if you plan on running a public ssh server, you'll get password attacks within an hour or two
2020-07-15 18:15:08 djph "within an hour"
2020-07-15 18:15:13 djph yeah, maybe in 2000
2020-07-15 18:16:03 makeworld Wdym, you get yours much faster?
2020-07-15 18:16:09 djph yes :(
2020-07-15 18:16:18 makeworld I don't have much experience, I just have one public server and I was told "in the hour"
2020-07-15 18:16:19 makeworld Yikes
2020-07-15 18:16:32 makeworld I just disabled password and root access
2020-07-15 18:16:35 djph well, least on the DO droplets
2020-07-15 18:16:38 djph did the same
2020-07-15 18:16:45 djph only allow sshkey
2020-07-15 18:18:31 luna i got plenty of ssh requests after running a droplet for a few days
2020-07-15 18:18:49 luna never authenticated of course
2020-07-15 18:19:28 makeworld Hope you disabled password login
2020-07-15 18:19:39 luna yeah, i've been doing that now
2020-07-15 18:24:00 luna also looks like soldierpunk released their cert generator :D
2020-07-15 18:24:37 djph cert generator?
2020-07-15 18:29:22 luna client and server certificate generator
2020-07-15 18:30:26 djph x.509 then?
2020-07-15 18:31:23 luna yep
2020-07-15 18:32:29 djph ah nice
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2020-07-15 19:47:10 luna i wonder if it's worth setting up a bouncer or ssh client for irc, hmm....
2020-07-15 19:47:55 djph sure thing
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2020-07-15 20:15:13 epoch depends on how much FOMO you get
2020-07-15 20:16:53 Sario528 I get a lot of IRC FOMO, that's why I ended up paying for IRCCloud
2020-07-15 20:17:33 luna i usually just check the gemini logs for this channel if i want to know what was going on when i was gone
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2020-07-15 20:18:11 luna just kind of concerned about the public ip stuff
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2020-07-15 20:19:56 luna also helps that i haven't bothered to join any other channels yet, then i'm sure i'd have plenty of fomo to go around
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2020-07-15 20:33:39 wgreenhouse luna: you can always sign up for an account on one of the tildeverse servers, and ssh into that for irc :)
2020-07-15 20:33:59 wgreenhouse then you'll be able to connect here as localhost :D
2020-07-15 20:34:19 djph ^
2020-07-15 20:35:15 ⚡ wgreenhouse is on the ~club but like Sario528 is also invested in irccloud for now
2020-07-15 20:35:57 Sario528 I actually have an account on ctrl-c, but I'm not sure what I want to do with it.
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2020-07-15 20:38:01 wgreenhouse irc, mail, and news (there is a tildeverse nntp network) might be a fun place to start.
2020-07-15 20:38:07 login inex, what is wolowolo.com?
2020-07-15 20:38:22 luna might be a good idea, the tildeverse always seemed interesting
2020-07-15 20:40:43 @ben ~team has a bunch of ways to use irc: https://tilde.team/wiki/irc
2020-07-15 20:40:50 @ben i'm biased though :P
2020-07-15 20:41:06 @ben i just use weechat inside tmux there (actually byobu)
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2020-07-15 20:44:19 inex login: a domain
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2020-07-15 20:44:56 inex have u seen the website? its beautiful http://wolowolo.com/
2020-07-15 20:47:58 login inex: it's a nice domain name
2020-07-15 20:48:19 login nice website, needs more supercars though
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2020-07-15 20:51:08 inex i've half assed added a racing car at the bottom
2020-07-15 20:51:49 inex half-assed a racing car*
2020-07-15 20:52:45 luna beautiful site lol
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2020-07-15 21:16:21 www-data when did I change my nick to this?
2020-07-15 21:16:36 www-data oh.
2020-07-15 21:16:40 www-data on reconnect.
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2020-07-15 21:20:02 Sario528 Hello epoch :)
2020-07-15 21:21:49 epoch o/
2020-07-15 21:23:39 Sario528 I wonder if I can get ctrl-c to install a gemini server
2020-07-15 21:26:33 epoch port 1965 doesn't need root to bind to. :)
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2020-07-15 21:59:23 djph nope :)
2020-07-15 22:00:31 djph ugh, they have nntp too!? as if I don't spend enough time on that already
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2020-07-15 22:07:03 luna random quick question since i can't make up my mind for the life of me: is it worth setting up expiration dates for public gpg keys?
2020-07-15 22:13:01 djph yes
2020-07-15 22:13:29 djph though they can be long (5+ years) if you really want. Encryption can be 2year expirys
2020-07-15 22:15:47 djph luna: e.g. my key -> my identity (signing key) is good for 10 years. My encryption key is only good for 2
2020-07-15 22:16:43 luna i'm guessing old signatures will still work after modifying the expiration date?
2020-07-15 22:17:27 djph yes, provided that people have your current public key (can't validate a signature with an expired public)
2020-07-15 22:17:42 djph note that an expired encryption key can ALWAYS decrypt
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2020-07-15 22:25:57 djph is there a recommended page size for a single gemtext page? I mean, is is preferential to assume someone's going to get a 100-line document spit out at them, and then re-open it in a pager ... or should it be paged at shorter intervals?
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2020-07-15 23:45:08 Nalaph from what I've seen, it's preferred to spit out he whole doc. Some browsers will scroll on their own, others have a "pipe to less" feature that handles paging
2020-07-15 23:58:38 djph works for me
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2020-07-16 02:20:52 ℹ Notice(cosmic.tilde.chat): Creation time of #gemini changed from Thu Jul 16 2020 02:20:48 to Sat Aug 31 2019 22:41:57
2020-07-16 02:20:52 ℹ Mode #gemini [-ont tomasino] by cosmic.tilde.chat
2020-07-16 02:20:52 ℹ Mode #gemini [+nrt] by thunix.tilde.chat
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2020-07-16 02:20:52 ℹ Mode #gemini [+qo tiwesdaeg tiwesdaeg] by thunix.tilde.chat
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2020-07-16 02:20:52 ℹ Mode #gemini [+oo ben xq] by thunix.tilde.chat
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2020-07-16 02:20:52 ℹ Mode #gemini [+o julienxx] by thunix.tilde.chat
2020-07-16 02:20:52 ℹ thunix.tilde.chat has changed topic for #gemini to "💎 Gemini (protocol) enthusiasts - gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | https://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | gopher://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | publically logged in gemspace"
2020-07-16 02:21:26 ℹ Channel created on Sat, 31 Aug 2019 22:41:57
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2020-07-16 03:08:49 luna oh my, looks like a lot of people got kicked off
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2020-07-16 06:22:41 epoch luna, all those people being kicked, that was a "netsplit"
2020-07-16 06:23:07 epoch when you connect to "here" it is actually at least two IRC servers connected together.
2020-07-16 06:23:23 epoch and when those two IRC servers lose connection to each other
2020-07-16 06:23:35 epoch anyone who is connected to the other server appears to leave
2020-07-16 06:50:52 luna huh, the more i know
2020-07-16 06:55:56 epoch :)
2020-07-16 07:30:49 luna i might actually talk in the mailing list soon after lurking for like a month or two now
2020-07-16 07:31:06 luna but in the meantime, i need some sleep lol
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2020-07-16 07:31:40 kensanata Wow, there are a lot of characters matching star$ in Unicode.
2020-07-16 07:32:23 kensanata I'm thinking of adding ｢🌟 Fav｣ at the end of my Gemini pages. You can't do anything with it, but you can look at it and question the social media revolution of the last decade.
2020-07-16 07:54:07 Shufei I wanna reclaim stars and such from the social media slot machines. I give stars as nice little imaginary stars that make people feel nice.
2020-07-16 08:00:47 kensanata Hello Shufei :)
2020-07-16 08:01:06 kensanata That comic about "you can't fav an email" really made me laugh.
2020-07-16 08:03:10 kensanata Now that I check http://wondermark.com/archive it seems that it's not even by David Malki‽
2020-07-16 08:38:06 rjt_znc Maybe stars are not ours to give~
2020-07-16 08:49:54 Shufei Ohh, I dunno what comic that is. But I turned to punkin late at night, so maybe I am too sleepy to remember... :>
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2020-07-16 10:04:24 djph kensanata: please don't.
2020-07-16 10:07:18 kensanata Shufei: https://icosahedron.website/@technomancy/101977088121793864
2020-07-16 10:09:01 kensanata It's perfect. Like, how will we end this conversation?
2020-07-16 10:09:13 kensanata I'm sitting here, waiting for your reply, saying: "fav"
2020-07-16 10:09:23 kensanata 🤣
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2020-07-16 13:45:07 ℹ Topic for #gemini is "💎 Gemini (protocol) enthusiasts - gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | https://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | gopher://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | publically logged in gemspace"
2020-07-16 13:45:07 ℹ Topic set by tomasino (~tomasino@gopher.black) on Sun, 28 Jun 2020 20:55:49
2020-07-16 13:45:07 ℹ Channel #gemini: 78 nicks (4 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 74 normals)
2020-07-16 13:45:07 ℹ Mode #gemini [+o tomasino] by ChanServ
2020-07-16 13:45:49 ℹ Channel created on Sat, 31 Aug 2019 22:41:57
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2020-07-16 14:24:46 kensanata tomasino+!
2020-07-16 14:24:56 @tomasino yo
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2020-07-16 15:35:51 lukee hi folks
2020-07-16 15:36:08 Sario Hello
2020-07-16 15:36:09 lukee just been experimenting with a html->gemini converter
2020-07-16 15:36:31 lukee it would be so nice not to have to fire up a normal web browser just to view a page
2020-07-16 15:36:44 @tomasino that's exciting
2020-07-16 15:36:58 @tomasino i journaled about the I Ching thing i made
2020-07-16 15:37:34 lukee but the web is full of so much element cruft
2020-07-16 15:37:35 ⚡ Sario makes a note to check capcom and spacewalk latet
2020-07-16 15:37:57 lukee tomasino: are you into I Ching, or is it just a toy?
2020-07-16 15:38:59 @tomasino i'm into divination in general and i appriceate that method in particular
2020-07-16 15:39:37 lukee I know John Cage was into it, which hints at its utility
2020-07-16 15:40:37 lukee A wise old friend of mine who had the book said it is not so much what the I Ching says, but rather what thought processes it invites you into
2020-07-16 15:43:27 ⚡ lukee plays with I Ching cgi on tilde.black
2020-07-16 15:43:54 @tomasino :D
2020-07-16 15:44:11 lukee Would it be possible to integrate the interpretations into the gemini site?
2020-07-16 15:44:28 @tomasino i could probably do quite a bit of long-form writing on the topic of divination
2020-07-16 15:44:46 @tomasino and yes, it would. I didn't feel like typing out my own for 64 and stealing them from other sites seemed shady, so i just linked
2020-07-16 15:45:18 lukee fair enough
2020-07-16 15:46:35 lukee here's a thought - you could time limit it by IP address, so you literally only get a certain answer for a while (you cant just refresh)
2020-07-16 15:46:40 @tomasino but yes... this would be great if it did that. I guess I could fetch those pages in the script, scrape the useful bits and pprint them
2020-07-16 15:46:56 @tomasino does the IP come through to a CGI?
2020-07-16 15:47:00 lukee it could be part of the "this is your answer, now work out what it means..."
2020-07-16 15:47:22 @tomasino that'd be neat
2020-07-16 15:47:29 lukee I think so unless the server strips it out
2020-07-16 15:47:39 @tomasino i'd probably want to serve an intro page first, make people think before they click to actually do the thing
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2020-07-16 15:49:22 lukee John Cage arrived at his masterpiece "4 minutes, 33 seconds" in part via his experimentation with I Ching
2020-07-16 15:50:56 lukee he said most other composers were using intention for composition, he wanted to use non-intention
2020-07-16 15:51:21 lukee so he used the I Ching as a way to generate randomness for his compositions
2020-07-16 15:51:47 lukee Then he realised that of course one of the possibilities is *nothing*
2020-07-16 15:52:24 @tomasino :D
2020-07-16 15:55:07 lukee the other one that is sort of similar is Eno's "Oblique strategies"
2020-07-16 15:55:08 lukee https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oblique_Strategies
2020-07-16 15:55:45 lukee which I think was designed as a creativity stimulant and blockage remover
2020-07-16 15:56:40 lukee blockage -> "blockage" (!)
2020-07-16 16:01:33 @tomasino did you read my link at the bottom of the gemini i ching?
2020-07-16 16:02:57 lukee not yet - let me take a loot
2020-07-16 16:03:57 @tomasino gemini://tilde.black/cgi-bin/about-iching.gmi
2020-07-16 16:05:15 lukee what is the nature of that algorithm?
2020-07-16 16:07:30 lukee do people really worry whether a digitised random process is "really" effective for chaotic divination?
2020-07-16 16:07:52 lukee as opposed to a "natural" one.
2020-07-16 16:08:44 lukee For me the value is not in the randomness of the seed and its connection to the enquirer but rather the process of accepting and answer and having to work on the interpretation
2020-07-16 16:09:22 lukee my friend who had the I Ching as a book, said the method he used was just to let it open randomly
2020-07-16 16:09:38 @tomasino This is where the nature of divination comes into play
2020-07-16 16:09:45 @tomasino And why I could write so much
2020-07-16 16:10:15 @tomasino Is it external action, internal discernment, a combination of the two, or more complex
2020-07-16 16:10:59 lukee I suppose I would lean towards the "constrained" internal discernment
2020-07-16 16:11:20 lukee constrained in as much as: "this is the reading you get. Deal with it"
2020-07-16 16:11:35 lukee what's your view
2020-07-16 16:11:37 lukee ?
2020-07-16 16:11:55 @tomasino I'm in the mixed camp
2020-07-16 16:12:09 @tomasino External influence requiring internal discernment
2020-07-16 16:12:58 @tomasino Off to cook
2020-07-16 16:12:59 lukee so then is it a worry about the connection between an enquirer using a digital interface to a system running a random number generator off a process id seed?
2020-07-16 16:13:05 @tomasino More on this topic soon!
2020-07-16 16:13:13 lukee ha fine!
2020-07-16 16:14:59 lukee ...well I've been bashing my head against the wall of html parsing
2020-07-16 16:15:48 lukee trying to remove the entropy from the system
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2020-07-16 16:16:18 lukee there are some html2text utilities out there that try to do something
2020-07-16 16:16:36 lukee which you can build on for generating text/gemini
2020-07-16 16:17:13 lukee and it works ok for simple pages in that you get something reasonable to read at the end
2020-07-16 16:17:55 lukee but if you feed it a random page, there is a huge amount of cruft reflecting all the myriad of UI elements a typical website has
2020-07-16 16:18:03 lukee none of which is particularly semantic
2020-07-16 16:18:24 lukee and after you scroll past 3 pages of them, then you get the real content :-/
2020-07-16 16:19:29 lukee then there is the whole discussion about what to do with inline links
2020-07-16 16:20:46 lukee so I'm not feeling very hopeful yet about the viability of this
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2020-07-16 17:04:14 acdw just put inline links on their own line?
2020-07-16 17:07:08 @tomasino Footnotes
2020-07-16 17:07:36 acdw +1
2020-07-16 17:08:33 lukee yes that is the best solution I agree - and widely used elsewhere like email and gopher
2020-07-16 17:09:23 lukee some day I might implement hot-wiring up the footnote citations and removing the footnotes
2020-07-16 17:09:50 lukee it would be of general utility I think
2020-07-16 17:10:27 lukee but the crufty web is just awash with clickable whatsits that are of no real content value
2020-07-16 17:10:38 lukee the trick is to try to strip them out without losing the real content
2020-07-16 17:10:58 lukee e.g. a +1 vote icon next to a comment
2020-07-16 17:11:53 acdw ooh like emojis?
2020-07-16 17:11:57 Sario A pound of good content buried under a ton of crap
2020-07-16 17:12:36 companion_cube ➕
2020-07-16 17:13:15 lukee yes a client nicety: not necessarily emojis - but where you have e.g. [2] in the text then => url [2] as the footnote link
2020-07-16 17:14:17 lukee but why not use an emoji - so many to choose from
2020-07-16 17:24:38 acdw footnotemojis
2020-07-16 17:25:35 @ben [0] [1] inline and the links at the bottom would be lovely
2020-07-16 17:25:47 lukee so it would have to be this one: 🦶
2020-07-16 17:26:07 lukee ben: seems doable
2020-07-16 17:26:18 acdw 🦶🎵
2020-07-16 17:28:05 lukee in fact in GemiNaut they could actually be done as superscript indices¹
2020-07-16 17:28:56 lukee I guess fixed text clients would have to use square bracket citations which are also fine
2020-07-16 17:31:03 acdw aren't superscripts in unicode tho? If so then that'd work no problem
2020-07-16 17:32:39 lukee Yes you're right!
2020-07-16 17:33:32 kensanata has quit (Ping timeout: 120 seconds)
2020-07-16 17:33:38 lukee everyone's a winner
2020-07-16 17:33:41 lukee with unicode
2020-07-16 17:34:46 acdw unicode is besticode
2020-07-16 17:35:35 acdw if my parents werren't visitng this weekend I'd do a lot of gemini stuff on breadpun
2020-07-16 17:35:58 acdw so i think *next* weekend I'm going to add a lot of stuff with gemini on breadpunk and probably change my presence to be all there
2020-07-16 17:40:42 kevinsan lukee, gemini://gemini.susa.net/web_readability_cli.gmi might be of interest, if you've not already tried it.
2020-07-16 17:42:40 lukee kevinsan: thanks for that - output looks nice for the text. Can it retain the links?
2020-07-16 17:44:53 kevinsan I don't know. Firefox Reader Mode, I think, retains links, but I don't know if this does. You might have to take them from the simplified html before running through html2text
2020-07-16 17:46:20 lukee urgh sounds complex
2020-07-16 17:47:11 lukee but I think this area is fruitful to investigate
2020-07-16 17:47:38 lukee I've been building on a go library html2text with some customisations
2020-07-16 17:48:18 kevinsan html2text does link extraction. If you read the man page for html2textrc, it shows you can configure how it presents extracted links.
2020-07-16 17:49:14 kevinsan as an aside, extracting links from html can be little more than grep and cut commands. not complex.
2020-07-16 17:51:04 lukee the html2text you mention - is it unix only?
2020-07-16 17:53:36 kevinsan well, the html2text that I refer to is a unix command (it's been around for years and years)
2020-07-16 17:54:25 @tomasino there's a python lib
2020-07-16 17:55:42 kevinsan http://www.mbayer.de/html2text/ (original author) https://github.com/grobian/html2text (current maintainer)
2020-07-16 17:56:07 rb100 has quit (Client exited)
2020-07-16 17:56:21 ⚡ lukee shudders at compiling and tweaking C++
2020-07-16 17:56:59 lukee I will release my html2gemini library soon I hope
2020-07-16 17:58:19 lukee tomasino: I have a response to your I Ching page
2020-07-16 17:58:40 @tomasino yay!
2020-07-16 17:58:43 @tomasino is it up?
2020-07-16 17:58:44 lukee gemini://gemini.marmaladefoo.com/cgi-bin/oblique-strategies/consult
2020-07-16 17:59:18 @tomasino perfect!
2020-07-16 17:59:32 lukee :)
2020-07-16 18:00:00 lukee I will do a short blog post and cross reference your post and app
2020-07-16 18:00:26 acdw has quit (Client exited)
2020-07-16 18:00:28 @tomasino fantastico
2020-07-16 18:01:37 lukee Should I tweak it so you get the same advice for an hour or so - so you have to come back again to get the next one?
2020-07-16 18:02:04 lukee probably by hour and IP address so everyone gets a different one
2020-07-16 18:02:15 lukee or just let people refresh to cycle through
2020-07-16 18:04:24 Sario I say makr them wait
2020-07-16 18:04:32 Sario s/makr/make
2020-07-16 18:06:48 Shufei has quit (Ping timeout: 120 seconds)
2020-07-16 18:07:38 @tomasino they may not realize
2020-07-16 18:08:05 @tomasino i got a blank one, btw
2020-07-16 18:08:08 Sario True. A notice may be needed
2020-07-16 18:08:12 @tomasino you have an extra line-feed in the list?
2020-07-16 18:08:15 lukee yes that is one
2020-07-16 18:08:21 @tomasino ahh, silence is an option
2020-07-16 18:08:22 @tomasino :P
2020-07-16 18:08:31 lukee mu
2020-07-16 18:09:04 lukee I could timestamp the divination and say to check back again in X hours
2020-07-16 18:10:07 @tomasino or require a client cert
2020-07-16 18:10:08 @tomasino :P
2020-07-16 18:10:41 lukee nope!
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2020-07-16 18:37:50 lukee Oblique strategies script now gives you the same advice for a whole hour before choosing another one!
2020-07-16 18:39:15 kevinsan => gemini://gemini.susa.net/cgi-bin/vim-search?buffers Searchable vim-faq
2020-07-16 18:39:34 @tomasino sweet!
2020-07-16 18:39:35 kevinsan inputs might be a bit heavily sanitized
2020-07-16 18:50:28 lukee urgh I just realised my server is behind a proxy so all queries come from the same address
2020-07-16 18:51:03 lukee so everyone gets the same advice. Its not such a bad thing, like a community magic 8 ball!
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2020-07-16 19:10:23 djph except the answer is always "No." ?
2020-07-16 19:10:52 djph whee, "orbit" script behaves now!
2020-07-16 19:11:26 lukee why is it always "no"?
2020-07-16 19:11:45 djph lukee: I was wondering if that's what the "same advice" for everyone was
2020-07-16 19:12:55 lukee no the advice is chosen randomly for the current hour. I had contemplated making the advice unique to the user (by IP address) but I can't do that right now
2020-07-16 19:13:26 lukee so currently it says "Look at a very small object, look at its centre"
2020-07-16 19:13:51 lukee (I'm assuming others get that too!) but on the hour it will change again
2020-07-16 19:14:05 djph oh, nice
2020-07-16 19:15:12 lukee what is the "orbit" script?
2020-07-16 20:04:17 djph processing script for taking textfiles, turning them into gemtext, then uploading them to my site.
2020-07-16 20:04:36 djph "orbit" just sounded like a good name, because "gemini program"
2020-07-16 20:04:57 lukee ah nice. What is the source format then if not gemini?
2020-07-16 20:06:37 djph just text. But I write in vim, and the 72char wrap doesn't conform to gemtext
2020-07-16 20:07:49 lukee I dont know vim - but I take it you cant just set it to soft wrap then?
2020-07-16 20:17:52 djph it's not very elegant to work in vi that way -- navigating around a "long line" gets quite tedious
2020-07-16 20:18:52 lukee I know better than to suggest using another text editing app to a vi user :)
2020-07-16 20:21:05 djph hahaha
2020-07-16 20:21:40 djph Other editors have their place (e.g. notepad++ @ work on their wall systems)
2020-07-16 20:22:39 djph but yeah, my preferred editor in terminal is vi (mostly because I had it beaten into me at my first position, working with the AIX boxes)
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2020-07-16 20:28:10 lukee I mostly use Scite which sits on top of the same library as notepad++
2020-07-16 20:34:15 kevinsan I used to use scite a lot on Windows, i can't even remember why I switched to notepad++, I don't trade editors lightly!
2020-07-16 20:37:36 lukee its nice and lightweight. If I need intellisense I'll grudgingly fire up VS
2020-07-16 20:37:52 kevinsan probably swapped during my stallman worshipping phase, since notepad++ is gpl
2020-07-16 20:38:05 lukee lol
2020-07-16 20:39:34 lukee It seems pretty straightforward to me: https://www.scintilla.org/License.txt
2020-07-16 20:39:37 kevinsan yes, good code completion is a bit of a holy grail - only strongly typed languages really work well. ZeroBrane Studio works well with Lua, but still nothing like Eclipse for Java
2020-07-16 20:41:15 lukee tomasino: I just finished my blog post about I Ching and Oblique strategies
2020-07-16 20:41:24 lukee gemini://gemini.marmaladefoo.com/blog/16-Jul-2020_Oblique_strategies.gmi
2020-07-16 20:42:23 @tomasino i'll read it tonight
2020-07-16 20:42:24 @tomasino awesome!
2020-07-16 20:47:27 kevinsan Why do I get 'Your card right now says' then an empty pre-formatted text block
2020-07-16 21:04:19 lukee that is the empty card!
2020-07-16 21:04:40 lukee You have to consider what that means for the problem you are trying to address
2020-07-16 21:04:43 lukee :)
2020-07-16 21:04:49 kevinsan I don't get it, why would I want an empty card? I want wisdom and inspiration!!
2020-07-16 21:06:08 kevinsan does anyone have a list of clients that support client certificates (other than AV-98?)
2020-07-16 21:06:10 lukee maybe the card means you don't need to be "given" wisdom after all?
2020-07-16 21:06:37 lukee anyway the hour is up, so there is another strategy now :)
2020-07-16 21:06:39 kevinsan yes, well my innate arrogance forces me to agree with that
2020-07-16 21:08:13 kevinsan I got: "Take away the elements in order of apparent non-importance"
2020-07-16 21:08:35 lukee yes and...
2020-07-16 21:09:24 kevinsan I'm still trying to find a context that it might apply to. I don't think I'm I Chinging quite right...
2020-07-16 21:09:36 djph ... if only av98 would page by default
2020-07-16 21:10:13 lukee it could suggest to simplify further the thing you are working on?
2020-07-16 21:10:35 lukee or perhaps that the order of apparent non-importance is only apparent?
2020-07-16 21:10:59 djph lukee: what?
2020-07-16 21:11:05 lukee or maybe that as you take the elements away one by one, you can see a different take on the problem
2020-07-16 21:11:36 lukee I'm not sure this is the right conversation to have with computer specialists :P
2020-07-16 21:12:10 lukee maybe it is the right conversation, but just hard
2020-07-16 21:13:43 kevinsan no, it's all good. remember - anything that helps us navigate the non-deterministic world outside von neumann architectures is to be welcomed
2020-07-16 21:13:57 lukee haha
2020-07-16 21:14:31 lukee less left brain, more right brain
2020-07-16 21:15:23 kevinsan i really want some personal influence in the choice presented to me. in other words "I don't want exactly the same I Ching as you losers"
2020-07-16 21:16:13 lukee yeah me too. I wanted to use the IP address as part of the seed to the randomizer, but the machine is behind a proxy
2020-07-16 21:16:29 lukee so all requests come from the proxy.
2020-07-16 21:16:42 kevinsan what server are you using?
2020-07-16 21:16:56 lukee maybe there is a solution. I should perhaps try to "Take away the elements in order of apparent non-importance"
2020-07-16 21:17:07 lukee molly-brown
2020-07-16 21:17:33 kevinsan does it pass in client certificate info to your CGI vars?
2020-07-16 21:18:17 lukee huh maybe that might work
2020-07-16 21:18:46 lukee it doesnt request a cert, but I suppose in virtue of TLS there is a client cert?
2020-07-16 21:19:37 kevinsan so, if TLS_CLIENT_HASH is not empty, use it to generate for that person?
2020-07-16 21:21:58 lukee I'm just getting "none" for that.
2020-07-16 21:22:28 lukee what are the circumstances it should be non-empty?
2020-07-16 21:23:09 kevinsan ok, so your server sets it to a value of either "none", or the client hash right? OR does it just not even set TLS_CLIENT_HASH?
2020-07-16 21:25:44 lukee its unset, not sure if that is a limitation of the server
2020-07-16 21:27:48 lukee looking at the source it should pass these in if there is a client cert being used
2020-07-16 21:28:27 lukee however I dont want to force clients to provide a certificate
2020-07-16 21:30:02 lukee maybe I could have a link which is "click here if you want the chosen oblique strategy to be specific to you"
2020-07-16 21:30:14 lukee which then requests a cert.
2020-07-16 21:30:22 lukee a problem for another day methinks!
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2020-07-16 21:32:11 kevinsan you just need to test for TLS_CLIENT_HASH and return either a user-specific or a generic card depending on its presence (and value, if there)
2020-07-16 21:32:46 lukee but when would there be a TLS_CLIENT_HASH set?
2020-07-16 21:33:03 lukee sorry the certificates side of gemini is not my forte
2020-07-16 21:33:14 kevinsan when a user connects with a client certificate
2020-07-16 21:33:42 kevinsan brb, I'll show you a link with the difference (from a CGI script's point of view)
2020-07-16 21:34:31 lukee ok great
2020-07-16 21:44:04 kevinsan See gemini://gemini.susa.net/notes_on_gemserv_cgi.gmi halfway down "A view of TLS variables from CGI scripts"
2020-07-16 21:44:06 kensanata Actually I don't think that is correct. The client cert is only sent to the server if the server is set up to validate peers.
2020-07-16 21:44:16 kensanata That's exactly the problem I had last week.
2020-07-16 21:44:24 kensanata My server would never see the client certs.
2020-07-16 21:44:34 kevinsan what server were you using kensanata
2020-07-16 21:44:58 kensanata My own... using Perl, whith libraries based on OpenSSL.
2020-07-16 21:45:28 kensanata The long form is here: gemini://alexschroeder.ch/page/2020-07-13_Client_Certificates_and_IO%3A%3ASocket%3A%3ASSL_%28Perl%29
2020-07-16 21:45:30 lukee thanks I'll take a look
2020-07-16 21:46:28 kensanata The short form is that (if you library is based on OpenSSL as well) that you need to set the Verify Mode to VERIFY_PEER (so that it actually requests the cert).
2020-07-16 21:47:37 kensanata Normally that then leads to the problem that the server thinks the client cert is invalid because it's self signed, so you need to tell the server that you want to validate the peer but then also tell the server not validate it... you do that by overriding the Verify Callback and return 1/true for every cert.
2020-07-16 21:47:55 kensanata Now you have a connection, and the client cert, and you can get its fingerprint.
2020-07-16 21:48:11 kensanata It took me five evenings to figure this shit out and I was not amused.
2020-07-16 21:49:12 kevinsan i can imagine - your description is lower level than my understanding of openssl (which is more or less limited to generating certificates)
2020-07-16 21:50:07 kensanata Yeah, now that I know what I'm looking for, I can link you to man pages like https://www.openssl.org/docs/manmaster/man3/SSL_CTX_set_cert_verify_callback.html
2020-07-16 21:50:26 kevinsan still, with a certificate created with AV-98, and a subsequent request to my gemserv server, my CGI script gets the TLS hash automatically.
2020-07-16 21:52:02 kensanata Yeah, your library must be doing automatic peer validation.
2020-07-16 21:52:47 kevinsan Sorry, when I said 'my' I meant my instance of the gemserv server (which was written by someone else). By yes, their code must have been written with this in mind.
2020-07-16 21:54:37 lukee ha I'm getting somewhere
2020-07-16 21:54:52 lukee at this URL it requests a certificate
2020-07-16 21:54:55 lukee gemini://gemini.marmaladefoo.com/cgi-bin/oblique-strategies/personal-consult
2020-07-16 21:55:14 lukee it doesnt do anything with the info yet, just prints it out in the footer
2020-07-16 21:55:52 lukee I'm just returning meta 60 if there is no TLS_CLIENT_HASH
2020-07-16 21:56:31 lukee I dont care if the certificate is valid or not, but it means I can be specific I think
2020-07-16 21:56:42 kensanata Cool, seems to work from my end
2020-07-16 21:58:05 kensanata What's the point, though? You don't actually want to establish a session, do you?
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2020-07-16 21:59:00 lukee no, its very simple, offer a different random card to different visitors that is selected for them
2020-07-16 21:59:17 lukee otherwise they get the same card as everyone else
2020-07-16 21:59:19 kensanata And why not using a random number?
2020-07-16 21:59:52 kensanata Since in the 60 code situation, I'm going to create a temporary cert and so next time I visit, I'll get a different card as well?
2020-07-16 22:00:02 kensanata Or do people have "accounts"?
2020-07-16 22:00:06 lukee because it has to persist between requests, and so the
2020-07-16 22:00:39 lukee random number would be different each time
2020-07-16 22:00:56 lukee the idea is you get the same card for an hour, then the card changes
2020-07-16 22:01:11 lukee obviously if you abandon your certificate you would get a new one
2020-07-16 22:01:11 kensanata OK, in that case a temporary cert might work just as well,
2020-07-16 22:01:32 lukee yes it wouldnt have to be a long term one.
2020-07-16 22:02:03 lukee unless you believe in fate and you want to get YOUR reading ;)
2020-07-16 22:02:15 kensanata Hah!
2020-07-16 22:04:34 kevinsan It even works from bash with ncat...
2020-07-16 22:04:36 kevinsan echo -ne 'gemini://gemini.susa.net/cgi-bin/serverinfo\r\n'|ncat --ssl --ssl-cert /tmp/kevin.crt --ssl-key /tmp/kevin.key gemini.susa.net 1965
2020-07-16 22:05:20 kevinsan pipe to grep HASH: TLS_CLIENT_HASH: SHA256:6A06C63546F95520750C72B303F2F4FAA94353AE6AFEE4C4FD12B456BEE1A7A4
2020-07-16 22:13:01 kevinsan kensanata, your certificate was generated for transjovian, not alexschroeder, so my client fails to load your link.
2020-07-16 22:13:57 lukee hey folks can you try this with your own clients
2020-07-16 22:13:58 lukee gemini://gemini.marmaladefoo.com/cgi-bin/oblique-strategies/personal-consult
2020-07-16 22:14:14 lukee what is your personal card you get?
2020-07-16 22:14:24 lukee I get "Emphasize the flaws"
2020-07-16 22:15:31 kevinsan I also got Emphasize the flaws - maybe a fluke, i'll try with a new cert...
2020-07-16 22:16:21 lukee hmm not working yet then
2020-07-16 22:17:08 djph I get 'send a cert or give up' (I gave up)
2020-07-16 22:17:15 kevinsan nope - did you use the hash to seed the random number generatot?
2020-07-16 22:17:46 lukee ha I found the bug
2020-07-16 22:18:03 lukee can you try again I now get "Think [ ] inside the work [ ] outside the work"
2020-07-16 22:18:09 kensanata kevinsan: Hm. I wonder what to do about it.
2020-07-16 22:18:43 lukee kevinsan: yes I use the hash plus the current hour so it changes every hour
2020-07-16 22:19:10 lukee well the hour+day+year so each day is different
2020-07-16 22:19:11 kensanata I guess I might just get one big cert for all the domains. I somehow hoped that Gemini clients wouldn't treat them any differently from self-signed certs.
2020-07-16 22:21:11 kevinsan kensanata, I didn't need to look into generating certs for multiple domains, since I just needed to use CN of *.susa.net
2020-07-16 22:21:20 kensanata Attempt to verify the new certificate fingerprint out-of-band:
2020-07-16 22:21:20 kensanata ...
2020-07-16 22:21:20 kensanata Accept this new certificate? Y/N y
2020-07-16 22:21:20 kensanata ERROR: string index out of range
2020-07-16 22:21:23 kensanata Weird.
2020-07-16 22:21:32 kensanata But then it works
2020-07-16 22:21:40 kensanata AV-98 and my site.
2020-07-16 22:22:41 lukee huh maybe the client hash lengths are variable...
2020-07-16 22:22:58 lukee let me tweak again...
2020-07-16 22:25:39 kevinsan lukee, you probably need to coerce the hash into something that makes sense to the RNG seed function.
2020-07-16 22:28:14 lukee yes I was being loose about that
2020-07-16 22:28:29 lukee I've fixed it now I think hopefully
2020-07-16 22:28:36 lukee can you try again?
2020-07-16 22:29:44 lukee If I use one certificate I get "Do the words need changing?"
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2020-07-16 22:30:16 lukee then if I change certificate I then get "Slow preparation, fast execution"
2020-07-16 22:31:20 kevinsan I get " Change instrument roles"
2020-07-16 22:31:35 lukee and if you refresh the page you still get the same advice?
2020-07-16 22:31:51 kevinsan just doing it (it's slooooow, is that your end that's the problem?)
2020-07-16 22:32:03 kevinsan Yes, "Change instrument roles"
2020-07-16 22:32:13 lukee wahey!
2020-07-16 22:32:30 lukee not sure what the performance problem is - it seems fine for me
2020-07-16 22:32:50 kevinsan well done, I feel enlightened by my personal I Ching.
2020-07-16 22:33:07 kensanata has quit (The TLS connection was non-properly terminated.)
2020-07-16 22:33:19 lukee well its not I Ching (that's Tomasino's CGI app) rather it is your own personal Oblique Strategy
2020-07-16 22:33:32 lukee for now anyway :)
2020-07-16 22:33:41 lukee thanks for your help with this!
2020-07-16 22:34:29 lukee I just need to link it in so visitors who can submit a cert will get their own personal guidance
2020-07-16 22:44:07 kevinsan so the slow speed is (i think) that AV-98 is trying IPv6 and falling back to IPv4 after a couple of attempts.
2020-07-16 22:44:17 kevinsan perhaps you're only proxying IPv4?
2020-07-16 22:44:49 lukee yes
2020-07-16 22:48:17 lukee not sure what the fix is: does AV-98 try to do this for every server and its faster, or its a general problem?
2020-07-16 22:53:06 kevinsan I don't really know python stuff well enough to say - tries IPv6 first. Your solution is to not resolve an IPv6 address if you can't serve on it. But of course you may be serving other protocols on that host/IP that do support IPv6
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2020-07-16 22:54:26 kevinsan But, if gemini.marmaladefoo.com is just not meant to run IPv6, then remove that AAAA entry from your DNS zone file.
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2020-07-16 22:59:41 lukee kevinsan: ok thanks I'll look into it
2020-07-16 23:02:37 ⚡ lukee shuffles off to learn more about DNS configuration
2020-07-16 23:04:36 lukee has quit (Client exited)
2020-07-16 23:05:29 drskrzyk oh man
2020-07-16 23:05:48 drskrzyk I wish I had seen that message. I should have warned lukee to not torture themselves.
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2020-07-17 00:40:21 djph uhoh :)
2020-07-17 00:41:04 djph drskrzyk: if it makes you feel better, I'm torturing myself with assembly ... :/
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2020-07-17 04:06:13 luna what architecture?
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2020-07-17 08:54:36 djph luna: me? avr. (Atmel ATMega / ATTiny microcontrollers)
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2020-07-17 09:47:40 @xq djph: why are you coding avr assembler?
2020-07-17 10:09:13 djph xq: why not?
2020-07-17 10:10:24 djph xq: I'd rather be coding 65816 assembler, but the microcontrollers are easier (faster turnaround, etc)
2020-07-17 10:10:48 @xq why not C?
2020-07-17 10:10:53 @xq it's a bit more readable
2020-07-17 10:10:56 djph C is easy
2020-07-17 10:11:21 djph also, 6502/65816 doesn't have a (good) C compiler.
2020-07-17 10:11:30 @xq that's true
2020-07-17 10:11:38 @xq but for AVR the C compiler is nice
2020-07-17 10:11:48 djph also, also, I wanna learn it
2020-07-17 10:12:17 @xq yeah whell
2020-07-17 10:12:19 @xq *well
2020-07-17 10:12:23 @xq that's nothing you can argue against :D
2020-07-17 10:13:12 djph xq: full disclosure -> started with "Arduino" -> then to bare vim/C/makefiles -> now assembly because learning the thought-processes for it (and as a gradual stepping stone to 6502 -- yes, yes, the mnemonics are different, but the thought patterns are the same)
2020-07-17 10:13:53 @xq no they are not :D
2020-07-17 10:14:02 @xq that's the problem why there is no good C compiler ;)
2020-07-17 10:15:06 @xq 6502 is very different
2020-07-17 10:15:18 @xq it's a accumulator machine, no register machine
2020-07-17 10:15:29 @xq so you need to learn about zero page and such features ;)
2020-07-17 10:16:31 djph xq: Sorry, I chose poor words. What I meant was that the "thought processes" for taking a problem and developing a subroutine are similar enough that I can start at the shallow end of the pool.
2020-07-17 10:16:44 @xq ah
2020-07-17 10:16:52 djph i.e. I'm not just jumping in from "C" to "6502 Assembly"
2020-07-17 10:17:07 @xq yeah i forget that sometimes that people are way less experienced than i am ^^
2020-07-17 10:17:14 djph hahah
2020-07-17 10:17:25 kevinsan 6502 is a joy to code with 8-bit custom chips like those in Atari 400/800
2020-07-17 10:17:32 @xq i'm doing this stuff (computers) since 2005.
2020-07-17 10:17:37 @xq pretty much daily, several hours
2020-07-17 10:17:37 @xq :D
2020-07-17 10:18:00 kevinsan the difference is that those old chips and instruction sets were designed for people to write assembly (or even just machine code)
2020-07-17 10:18:13 djph xq: I've been working with computers since the 1990s; but not assembly or the "classic(tm)" chips
2020-07-17 10:18:25 @xq djph: yeah, but i *live* coding :D
2020-07-17 10:18:37 @xq every day, at work, at leisure time, at night :D
2020-07-17 10:18:48 @xq and for me it doesn#t matter anymore what language, level, ...
2020-07-17 10:18:53 djph mostly scripting languages, and the occassional bigger thing ... but the low-level stuff is more "in between"
2020-07-17 10:18:59 kevinsan when I started using PIC chips, I expected the experience to be the same, but it just wasn't. I hated assembly on those chips and soon moved to C
2020-07-17 10:18:59 @xq (now some bragging) :D
2020-07-17 10:19:10 djph xq: ah, gotcha
2020-07-17 10:19:48 @xq people were impressed that i just read the docs for the Raytheon704, then hacked a small tape loader for that macine in machine language.
2020-07-17 10:19:49 @xq :D
2020-07-17 10:20:51 djph nice
2020-07-17 10:21:08 djph college really killed my taste for programming though :| java is awful.
2020-07-17 10:21:25 ⚡ xq hints djph into the direction of Zig
2020-07-17 10:21:29 @xq join our small revolution!
2020-07-17 10:21:33 djph Zig?
2020-07-17 10:21:52 djph "In AD2101, war was beginning" ?
2020-07-17 10:22:06 @xq i see, you are a man of culture as well
2020-07-17 10:22:08 @xq https://ziglang.org/
2020-07-17 10:22:25 djph haha
2020-07-17 10:22:40 @xq move zig!
2020-07-17 10:23:09 @xq but being serious: i was a C/C++/C# coder before i discovered zig
2020-07-17 10:23:13 djph I used to be able to go through that whole opening sequence from memory. Such a bad translation, but a pretty decent side-scroller.
2020-07-17 10:23:17 @xq and now i try to hack everything in that language
2020-07-17 10:23:55 @xq disclaimer: it's not done yet and breaking changes or bugs are to be expected, but get less and less often
2020-07-17 10:31:34 djph looks interesting with a quick read
2020-07-17 10:34:10 @xq it is. all the good qualities of C and some of more modern languages (like a very good type system) without all that weirdness and footguns of C
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2020-07-17 10:50:23 epoch http://www.hackers-edge.com/ <-- has a network of 6502 VMs inside it
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2020-07-17 10:59:54 djph epoch: yeah, I have one or two floating around on my system. They're not as ... fun? ... I guess as banging on hardware
2020-07-17 11:00:37 @xq sounds like a nice idea
2020-07-17 11:00:45 ⚡ xq wants to do something similar for a game
2020-07-17 11:01:21 djph longterm, I want to see if I can make an e-reader, for funsies.
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2020-07-17 13:14:31 kensanata I think I want to make a more conscious effort to write text using Gemini instead of programming for Gemini, or writing about the programming for Gemini.
2020-07-17 13:15:50 @tomasino yes!
2020-07-17 13:15:51 @tomasino do it
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2020-07-17 13:33:51 kensanata :)
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2020-07-17 17:19:27 ℹ Mode #gemini [+oo xq ben] by team.tilde.chat
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2020-07-17 17:45:11 djph uhoh, pretty empty room... server reset?
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2020-07-17 18:10:36 @tomasino is it?
2020-07-17 18:48:09 djph oh now it's back to normal ... there were like 5 people in here before.
2020-07-17 18:48:42 djph yay, gemtext processor didn't choke on the code (much)
2020-07-17 18:50:57 wgreenhouse djph: there was a big netsplit
2020-07-17 18:52:15 djph hm, I must've been offline when that happened then - as I didn't see any netsplit notice. Ah well, it's the weekend, and I got my microcontroller code to work perfectly
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2020-07-17 20:12:27 kensanata kooda has an interesting point about tracking users using TLS session caches. Is that actually possible?
2020-07-17 20:20:36 djph I think you have to request their cert, but ... maybe
2020-07-17 20:24:30 CommunistWolf heh, I just had a moment of doubt before buying an ipv6-only server, but... https://www.mythic-beasts.com/support/topics/proxy#sec-proxied-services
2020-07-17 20:24:30 wgreenhouse Is there really a cache if everyone is using an ephemeral cipher suite and client didn't offer a client certificate?
2020-07-17 20:24:40 CommunistWolf gemini support \o/
2020-07-17 20:24:50 wgreenhouse TLS--how does it work
2020-07-17 20:28:28 login TLS 1.3 is ephemeral, but not 1.2 right?
2020-07-17 20:42:14 kensanata Sometimes it feels as if 70% of all development around Gemini is TLS-related. Gah!
2020-07-17 20:45:14 CommunistWolf we all love TLS
2020-07-17 20:47:49 kensanata Sounds like Stockholm syndrome.
2020-07-17 20:59:30 kevinsan CommunistWolf, how much did you pay, and for what spec?
2020-07-17 21:01:15 CommunistWolf kevinsan: I got one of the pi4s with some extra disk, it came to just under £10
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2020-07-17 21:01:27 CommunistWolf but I do very much like TLS
2020-07-17 21:01:44 CommunistWolf now, if only it'd boot...
2020-07-17 21:01:56 CommunistWolf it might be a support ticket ^^
2020-07-17 21:02:16 lukee CommunistWolf: I know why Mythic Beasts support Gemini on their proxy
2020-07-17 21:03:07 lukee Because they opened it for me :)
2020-07-17 21:04:22 lukee They also do RPI in the cloud
2020-07-17 21:05:20 lukee (oh sorry - just saw you have one from them too!)
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2020-07-17 21:20:11 CommunistWolf hah, awesome
2020-07-17 21:21:41 wgreenhouse login: some TLS 1.2 suites are ephemeral
2020-07-17 21:23:29 luna oh my god i think cloudflare is having problems
2020-07-17 21:24:06 kayw they are
2020-07-17 21:24:26 luna getting 502s
2020-07-17 21:25:29 @tomasino Awesome
2020-07-17 21:25:35 luna and that kids, is why i don't use centralized reverse proxies :)
2020-07-17 21:27:44 luna welp i might as well get some food or something considering this is going on, i'll be back shortly
2020-07-17 21:28:38 luna ta ta for now
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2020-07-17 21:28:50 @tomasino Good old trusty IRC
2020-07-17 21:30:00 CommunistWolf the schadenfreude is immense
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2020-07-17 23:25:20 djph CommunistWolf: eh?
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2020-07-18 01:47:08 luna now i'm just crossing my fingers hoping i don't mess up sending a reply to the mailing list
2020-07-18 01:47:38 luna from what i can tell, i need the In-Reply-To header to reply to a post correctly?
2020-07-18 01:56:58 @tomasino i screw it up every time. don't sweat it
2020-07-18 01:58:37 djph most halfway sane MUAs will do it right
2020-07-18 02:06:02 luna i'm currently using zoho's web client, it can accept mailto links but i have no way to tell if it uses the in-reply-to parameter from the link
2020-07-18 02:06:22 luna considering it doesn't set the subject either doesn't really give me confidence
2020-07-18 03:16:53 luna okay i'm scrapping this idea and just moving back to migadu lol
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2020-07-18 05:24:18 kensanata Good morning all!
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2020-07-18 06:39:30 login zoho lost a client
2020-07-18 07:42:12 kensanata Who's zoho?
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2020-07-18 09:42:28 djph o/
2020-07-18 11:59:07 wgreenhouse kensanata: SaaS groupware vendor
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2020-07-18 15:56:01 makeworld gemini://kwiecien.us/logarion/gemini-client-review.gmi
2020-07-18 15:56:08 makeworld Client reviews!! (Not by me)
2020-07-18 15:59:35 Sario Cool find
2020-07-18 16:12:17 Sario Great reviews! I hope this stays updated, it'll be a great resource for newcomers.
2020-07-18 16:20:17 makeworld Yeah definitely
2020-07-18 17:23:56 kensanata Is that page available via the web? The irony is that I want to show it to people who haven't seen Gemspace, yet.
2020-07-18 17:24:56 kensanata Ah. https://kwiecien.us/gemini-client-review.html!
2020-07-18 17:28:59 kensanata I also love Elpher.
2020-07-18 17:31:28 Sario528 kensanata: remember we have a couple of proxies for browsing gemspace from a standard web browser
2020-07-18 17:33:57 kensanata I wrote one myself, I know.
2020-07-18 17:42:02 Sario528 Ahh, oops.
2020-07-18 18:03:56 tiwesdaeg kensanata: do you have the code available for it?
2020-07-18 18:04:01 ben has quit (quit: i'll probably be back soon)
2020-07-18 18:05:58 tildebeast1 what's a good (as in easy to get started!) gemini server? is gemserve OK?
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2020-07-18 18:06:07 ℹ Mode #gemini [+o ben] by ChanServ
2020-07-18 18:07:20 tiwesdaeg tomasino's tiny ncat example for a single file is pretty easy
2020-07-18 18:07:49 @tomasino gemini://tomasino.org
2020-07-18 18:08:51 kensanata tiwesdaeg: the site is https://alexschroeder.ch/soweli-lukin and the source is part of nimi-mute: https://alexschroeder.ch/cgit/nimi-mute/about/#soweli-lukin
2020-07-18 18:10:18 tiwesdaeg awesome, thanks!
2020-07-18 18:11:46 kensanata If you like Perl... :D
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2020-07-18 18:24:21 luna hello once again
2020-07-18 18:28:08 luna might start working on some dumb gemini site ideas since i have nothing else to do
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2020-07-18 18:41:52 makeworld Like what luna?
2020-07-18 18:42:06 luna not really sure yet lol
2020-07-18 18:48:12 makeworld Do you have a gemlog up?
2020-07-18 18:49:21 kensanata Now to find the email addresses of acdw and maleza...
2020-07-18 18:49:41 kensanata Where is our gemini-mention!
2020-07-18 18:49:43 luna if i do make a gemlog, it would probably be more microblog-type posts
2020-07-18 18:51:13 luna i'm also still stressing out over email hosting, i feel dumb for constantly thinking about it
2020-07-18 18:52:48 kensanata Heh. I finally solved my email hosting issues in recent years.
2020-07-18 18:53:01 kensanata I hope they remain resolved.
2020-07-18 18:53:22 tildebeast1 what do you recommend for mail, kensanata?
2020-07-18 18:54:00 kensanata tildebeast1: I use migadu because I live in Switzerland and they host in Switzerland, and I get to own the domain, and I felt their setup instructions were super easy to follow.
2020-07-18 18:54:27 tildebeast1 are they mail-only hosts, or do they have that kind of option?
2020-07-18 18:54:30 kensanata tildebeast1: Also, they offer normal imap and smtp unlike tutanova and proton.
2020-07-18 18:54:43 kensanata tildebeast1: I think they're email only.
2020-07-18 18:54:49 tildebeast1 nice.
2020-07-18 18:54:52 luna i can't decide whether i should stick to zoho or migadu really
2020-07-18 18:55:00 kensanata tildebeast1: Well, there's a web mail option which I've used once or twice.
2020-07-18 18:55:13 tildebeast1 still leaves the issue of somewhere that lets me do the dns records too :)
2020-07-18 18:56:19 kensanata tildebeast1: Not sure what you mean, are you trying to move from one registrar to another, or are you saying that being in control of your dns allows you to control whether the mail hoster's webmail gets exposed or not?
2020-07-18 18:56:36 luna i'd pay less for zoho's cheapest paid plan compared to migadu's cheapest plan, but migadu feels a bit nicer to use
2020-07-18 18:57:03 kensanata I moved from Google to Migadu and liked it. Never used Zoho.
2020-07-18 18:57:09 luna i've used digitalocean for my nameservers since my registrar's wasn't that great
2020-07-18 18:57:48 kensanata Wow, I got nothing for maleza and acdw. Given that people complain about the difficulties of implementing webmentions, I think it's amazing how useless mail is because people don't leave their email addresses in their capsules.
2020-07-18 18:57:58 tildebeast1 well, i guess i can just pick a registrar and leave it at that, so long as they make it easy to edit the dns records. currently use tsohost for both registrar and a hosting package but definitely not feeling the love for them any more :)
2020-07-18 18:58:43 luna i've kind of wanted to move my domain to gandi so that i can just kill two birds with one stone but they don't support dkim directly
2020-07-18 18:59:52 kensanata Would you leave your email address on a service I hosted? Something where you need to sign up saying "my URL is bla and my email is foo@bar" (via email to me personally) and then I'd implement a webmention server and a command line tool that lets you say "gemini-mention <my-url> <mentioned-url>" and if you do, I'll send an email to the owner of <mentioned-url>?
2020-07-18 19:00:06 kensanata luna: I use Gandi for my DNS.
2020-07-18 19:01:17 luna they're the second or third cheapest option for my tld too afaik which is nice
2020-07-18 19:01:44 luna would be even cheaper than getting zoho separately
2020-07-18 19:02:13 luna but since i got the domain on the first of this month i can't transfer it yet anyways :P
2020-07-18 19:02:15 kensanata luna: What did you mean regarding "DKIM directly"?
2020-07-18 19:03:30 luna i'm still a bit confused as to how dkim works but they their faq just says that they don't support it
2020-07-18 19:04:46 luna but that you can still add your own key in the dns and "see with your outgoing email provider concerning the configuration of their mail server for the service"
2020-07-18 19:21:38 kensanata HM.
2020-07-18 19:22:59 kensanata I just looked at their DNS diagnostics page for my domain again, and it says "DKIM Public Key(s) Status OK" and lists stuff like "Key1 is correctly delegated via CNAME to key1.alexschroeder.ch._domainkey.migadu.com"
2020-07-18 19:23:17 kensanata https://admin.migadu.com/domains/12981/dns/instructions#dkim
2020-07-18 19:27:40 luna i mean using gandi's own mail hosting
2020-07-18 19:28:27 kensanata Ah
2020-07-18 19:31:27 luna https://docs.gandi.net/en/gandimail/faq/general_questions.html#does-gandimail-support-dkim
2020-07-18 19:31:41 luna honestly at this point i should just stop caring and stick with migadu's free plan lmao
2020-07-18 19:32:15 luna idk why the signature bugs me at all in the first place, but i'm glad i just gave in and used it anyways
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2020-07-18 20:48:41 kensanata Aaahhh... I think I figured out which address to whitelist in order to not fish half of your emails to the mailing list from my Junk folder!
2020-07-18 20:49:00 kensanata It's gemini-bounces@...
2020-07-18 20:50:38 luna might come in handy for me, i think a few posts went to my junk folder earlier
2020-07-18 20:51:31 kensanata Yeah, I had whitelisted sdf and protonmail and the mailing list address itself, all to no avail.
2020-07-18 20:55:17 kevinsan luna, with DKIM (roughly), your email gets signed by your sending server. Your public key goes into a TXT record for your domain. A receiving server can look this up and verify the signature.
2020-07-18 20:55:57 luna ah, so it does depend on the smtp servers supporting it
2020-07-18 20:56:44 kevinsan I think in principle the client could do this (it's just an SMTP header), but I think servers usually do it (via dkimproxy, for example)
2020-07-18 20:57:22 luna oh yeah, i suppose there is nothing stopping the client from doing it
2020-07-18 21:07:19 kevinsan kensanata, you moved from Google to migadu. How do they compare for spam detection (and including false positives)?
2020-07-18 21:08:26 kensanata kevinsan: I've had to set my spam filters to paranoid, and now I have had a few false positives, but I *think* it eventually turned out that most of those were protonmail users on the mailing list.
2020-07-18 21:08:53 kensanata Newsletters often turn up in Junk as well, but those are just as well, usually.
2020-07-18 21:09:34 kensanata kevinsan: Basically you can set the severity level of your spam filtering.
2020-07-18 21:10:11 kensanata kevinsan: https://alexschroeder.ch/wiki/2019-09-19_Spam has some numbers
2020-07-18 21:10:14 makeworld I've sent an email to the list asking for a SUCCESS AS STREAM status code
2020-07-18 21:10:24 makeworld tomasino I believe you've talked about this?
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2020-07-18 21:10:53 kensanata kevinsan: Those numbers are from before I joined the mailing list.
2020-07-18 21:11:14 kevinsan thanks. I looked them up today and their honesty is refreshing. kinda feel they're trustworthy.
2020-07-18 21:11:35 kensanata Who knows.
2020-07-18 21:11:44 kensanata At least I haven't had any negative experiences until now.
2020-07-18 21:11:56 kensanata But ever since Snowden I'd say: there is no trust.
2020-07-18 21:12:46 kensanata Also I live in Switzerland and I don't give a dry sparrow's shit to arguments about Swissness and trust...
2020-07-18 21:13:21 login did you vote for sovereign money or against?
2020-07-18 21:13:23 kensanata But yeah, at least it's not obviously five eyes or any other of prime number eyes.
2020-07-18 21:13:44 login it would remove private lending completely
2020-07-18 21:14:01 kevinsan ah, I just mean trust as in will do a good job. email is as secure as my front lawn.
2020-07-18 21:14:12 kensanata login: I don't remember and it seems I didn't blog about it so I cannot recall.
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2020-07-18 21:15:23 kensanata login: These days I'd say that the way banks create money is super untrustworthy, but all our trust in banks would not come back with sovereign money so these days I wouldn't see the point.
2020-07-18 21:15:41 kensanata kevinsan: In which case I can recommend them. :D
2020-07-18 21:16:10 @tomasino I did, makeworld
2020-07-18 21:16:31 @tomasino Another 20 something code would indicate stream
2020-07-18 21:16:36 makeworld Well feel free to chime in! :)
2020-07-18 21:17:49 luna apologies for all the disconnects ^^'
2020-07-18 21:19:12 luna lol i think this filter doesn't like protonmail addresses
2020-07-18 21:19:43 luna riseup? straight to inbox! protonmail? *straight to junk*
2020-07-18 21:23:17 kensanata luna: Well, you can look at the headers of those messages and you'll see how this happens.
2020-07-18 21:24:47 luna seems like one of the protonmail messages got a spam score of 10
2020-07-18 21:25:26 luna i can't really see what causes the score to be what it is, though
2020-07-18 21:25:47 kensanata "Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail (rsa verify failed) header.d=protonmail.com header.s=protonmail header.b=yOeChzzP; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF" header.from=protonmail.com (policy=quarantine); spf=softfail (aspmx1.migadu.com: 2001:470:142:3::10 is neither permitted nor denied by domain of gemini-bounces@lists.orbitalfox.eu) ...
2020-07-18 21:26:17 kensanata Whatever all that means, I see "no valid SPF"
2020-07-18 21:26:30 kevinsan wow, no wonder. did the content include anything about viagra?
2020-07-18 21:27:02 kevinsan SPF failure means that protonmail's server is not authorised to carry email for your domain.
2020-07-18 21:27:52 kevinsan DKIM fail means that the content of the message does not verify against the public key defined for your domain
2020-07-18 21:27:56 kensanata I had a similar problem with migadu and the mailing list, however. Blogged about it, too. https://alexschroeder.ch/wiki/2020-06-04_DMARC_an_Mailing_Lists
2020-07-18 21:28:07 luna "dmarc=fail reason="SPF not aligned (relaxed)" header.from=protonmail.com (policy=quarantine);"
2020-07-18 21:28:37 luna dkim failed too
2020-07-18 21:28:45 luna but ironically for me, the spf passed
2020-07-18 21:29:43 kevinsan oh, i see now - it was dmarc that failed because of the spf configuration
2020-07-18 21:30:45 kensanata All of that only vaguely tells me something. It would be cool if there was something we could tell the list admins so that things "get fixed". :)
2020-07-18 21:31:24 kevinsan I wrote a script to generate a self-hosted email setup, and documented it here. https://www.susa.net/wordpress/2019/08/lxd-email-smtp-imap-webmail-with-opensmtpd-dovecot-and-roundcube/
2020-07-18 21:31:55 kevinsan maybe some of the code will help you understand what's needed?
2020-07-18 21:33:05 kensanata As migadu is hosting my email, I feel like I'm not going to do anything. I tried to host my own email and decided I no longer want ot.
2020-07-18 21:33:24 luna i remember considering self-hosted email myself, just felt a bit too daunting
2020-07-18 21:33:37 luna i gotta goooo
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2020-07-18 21:33:41 kensanata I've done it twice and I never felt comfortable about it.
2020-07-18 21:34:44 kevinsan I agree, ok for secondary emails, but it's a complicated business, and a bit of a moving target.
2020-07-18 21:47:04 kensanata I feel like I need a good idea for how to implement looking at image galleries using Gemini. Example: gemini://alexschroeder.ch/do/gallery/2020-aminona
2020-07-18 21:47:22 kensanata As I zip through, I'm just not feeling it.
2020-07-18 22:12:53 kevinsan Perhaps you could pre-generate a page of thumbnails with a number superimposed - easy to remember when going back and viewing the chosen image.
2020-07-18 22:13:33 kevinsan without caching, it would woefully inefficient. Or, ascii art? ;-)
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2020-07-18 22:23:24 kevinsan speaking of efficiency, I'm having a day when my obsession with efficent code is making me an inefficient coder. That, my friends, is irony.
2020-07-18 22:25:13 lukee sometimes in computing we optimise for the computer, sometimes for the human and sometimes for the developer!
2020-07-18 22:25:53 lukee human -> user!
2020-07-18 22:26:23 kevinsan ha! i thought you were making a distinction :)
2020-07-18 22:27:03 kevinsan i happened to do an about Geminaut as you signed off yesterday. I guess you're the author, so - Thanks!
2020-07-18 22:28:05 lukee yes I am
2020-07-18 22:28:13 lukee how are you getting on with it?
2020-07-18 22:28:52 kevinsan it's really useable, and has visually nice output.
2020-07-18 22:29:04 lukee what theme do you prefer?
2020-07-18 22:30:11 kevinsan I've been using terminal for about a week. I was happy with the default theme before that.
2020-07-18 22:30:24 lukee oh ok - interesting
2020-07-18 22:31:55 lukee I think there is a tiny bit of tweaking I want to do for the terminal theme - the bullets and links should have a hanging indent I think
2020-07-18 22:32:30 kevinsan what I yearn for is an F5 reload, and a bookmark bar. The latter because Gemini needs multiple 'starting points'. I get by just adding them to my home page.
2020-07-18 22:33:30 lukee do you use the bookmarks menu?
2020-07-18 22:33:51 lukee I will implement Ctrl_R for reload, and I should add F5 to that too
2020-07-18 22:34:02 kevinsan yes, but I don't like using the mouse at all (in fact, it's often a track-point I'm using - worse still)
2020-07-18 22:34:13 lukee at some point - they are familiar shortcuts people will have under their fingers
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2020-07-18 22:35:54 lukee Maybe I should also add keyboard shortcuts to the menus. For example Alt-B to get bookmarks menu
2020-07-18 22:36:57 kevinsan Yes, that would help a lot.
2020-07-18 22:37:16 lukee I'll look into it - that at least should be straightforward
2020-07-18 22:38:17 lukee you can go Alt,right,right, then use the cursor keys to go into the bookmarks, but it ought to be more fluid than that
2020-07-18 22:39:52 kevinsan I hadn't thought of that, yes it works fine.
2020-07-18 22:41:01 lukee Next version will probably be able to show images within the client, rather than launching an external webbrowser
2020-07-18 22:41:45 lukee I just need to finish a bit of logic and UI so you can specify a max timeout and response size before the connection is abandoned
2020-07-18 22:41:59 lukee since in Gemini we never know how big the response is
2020-07-18 22:42:51 kevinsan that will be useful. are you planning an image viewer pop-up, or will you replace the view?
2020-07-18 22:44:09 lukee first iteration it will replace the view
2020-07-18 22:44:45 lukee but I would like to do an image popup like a lightbox, which I think will feel more fluid and integrated
2020-07-18 22:46:12 kevinsan yes, i think there are different image-viewing use-cases. like, when i'm viewing a diagram that accompanies some text, I need to also see the text.
2020-07-18 22:46:24 lukee yes
2020-07-18 22:46:38 kevinsan but viewing a photo, that's all I want to look at.
2020-07-18 22:47:24 lukee how would you like to control that decision?
2020-07-18 22:47:56 kevinsan If I was writing my own client, I'd use a ctrl-click for popup.
2020-07-18 22:49:30 lukee another option I've considered is some kind of button or menu on the link.
2020-07-18 22:49:54 lukee maybe like a [+] - if you clicked that it would show inline, otherwise the rest of the link would do a replace
2020-07-18 22:51:59 lukee or another option - you click (or otherwise activate) on the link and a menu appears with "popup" and "show inline" or something like that?
2020-07-18 22:52:45 kevinsan both of those would work, though I wonder if it would add clutter? menu sounds cumbersome
2020-07-18 22:54:38 kevinsan a hover popup on the link could show usage (e.g. "Click to view, Ctrl-click for popup")
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2020-07-18 22:56:49 lukee well all of this can be explored. My inclination is to keep the tooltip/hover popup for information about the link. But yes there is some fruitful options here
2020-07-18 22:57:04 lukee is->are
2020-07-18 23:05:20 lukee another feature which is sort of related is "open in new window" - where you want to be able to fork your browsing path or see two docs together
2020-07-18 23:05:54 lukee you can start 2 copies of GemiNaut, but again a little bit cumbersome
2020-07-18 23:08:38 kevinsan I suppose even launching a new Geminaut process with a URL would be a quick gain.
2020-07-18 23:10:10 lukee yes, maybe even register gemini:// protocol on the machine and assign to GemiNaut, so you could click on gemini links elsewhere
2020-07-18 23:11:23 lukee this would have to be an option, as it is a bit rude to take over a protocol without user consent
2020-07-18 23:11:36 lukee as they might have multiple gemini clients installed
2020-07-18 23:12:02 kevinsan just add it to the about menu, or somewhere like that?
2020-07-18 23:12:07 lukee yes
2020-07-18 23:13:19 lukee another option I might add if I can make it nice enough is a simple html viewer
2020-07-18 23:13:47 lukee problem is most web pages dont flatten that well without a lot of cruft
2020-07-18 23:14:27 lukee So the first http link you click on you would get a simplified view of that page, with a link still to launch externally in a proper browser
2020-07-18 23:14:30 kevinsan that would be overkill, to my mind - it would bloat the exe and footprint
2020-07-18 23:15:28 kevinsan on that subject, I was checking and a vanilla launch is ~80M, the exe that's been running for days was ~185M (working set)
2020-07-18 23:15:38 lukee I've not convinced myself yet either for various reasons
2020-07-18 23:16:04 kevinsan do you ever clean out the document cache, for when the application is running for days?
2020-07-18 23:16:55 lukee huh - I get about 20M memory use
2020-07-18 23:17:44 lukee Each time you launch a session folder is created that holds the visited pages, then when you close the whole folder is deleted
2020-07-18 23:19:07 kevinsan I got: Working set 98M, WS Private 50M, WS Shareable 48M, WS Shared 20M
2020-07-18 23:19:16 lukee Oh I see that task manager has a different "working set" to RAM usage
2020-07-18 23:20:23 lukee There might be something I can do, but the system HTML control is probably doing some of its own caching, so you get the fast history navigation without refetching the pages
2020-07-18 23:20:35 kevinsan memory usage is not an issue, i don't begrudge it!
2020-07-18 23:21:44 kevinsan it may also be over-allocating on this machine (it has 16GB ram, and libraries sometimes get greedy)
2020-07-18 23:22:49 lukee that sounds like a beefy machine - here I have 4Gb which was an upgrade of this old thinkpad! I figure if it is nice and snappy on this, it will be nice for everyone
2020-07-18 23:25:07 kevinsan thinkpads just go on and on, always my first choice.
2020-07-18 23:25:32 lukee Well it was nice to chat - its late here so I'm going to turn in. Feel free to drop me a line any time if you have some thoughts of ideas for GemiNaut.
2020-07-18 23:25:47 kevinsan sure thing, thanks.
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2020-07-19 01:07:40 caranatar trying to decide how to implement redirect and gone for my server... right now I do a check if the requested URL starts with a configured redirect or gone path, but I think that could cause problems
2020-07-19 01:07:52 caranatar like if you mark /a/b/c as gone
2020-07-19 01:07:58 caranatar and you have /a/b/c.gmi
2020-07-19 01:08:04 caranatar that would get caught up as gone
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2020-07-19 04:49:52 luna i wonder if there's a way to run different host programs mapped to different url directories...
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2020-07-19 08:31:48 @xq tomasino: thank for keeping my flower alive :D
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2020-07-19 08:40:38 epoch o/
2020-07-19 08:43:34 @xq hey epoch
2020-07-19 08:50:17 epoch what's up?
2020-07-19 08:52:04 @xq too many projects!
2020-07-19 08:52:42 epoch iktf
2020-07-19 08:54:55 @xq expoch --expand iktf
2020-07-19 08:55:22 epoch I know that feel
2020-07-19 08:55:25 @xq aaah
2020-07-19 08:55:34 @xq yeah
2020-07-19 08:55:52 @xq i derailed completly from kristall and hackvr to remove bitrot from older projects
2020-07-19 08:56:04 epoch "ars longa vita brevis"
2020-07-19 08:56:34 @xq now i'm refactoring a UI project of mine to finally enable me to control my home automation stuff
2020-07-19 08:59:15 epoch is that in zig too?
2020-07-19 09:02:27 @xq yep
2020-07-19 09:02:36 ⚡ xq writes everything in zig nowadays
2020-07-19 09:05:45 dkibi I derailed from my main gemini thing into doing an extension of the labyrint cgi
2020-07-19 09:06:15 @xq :D
2020-07-19 09:06:25 login is zig a good programming language?
2020-07-19 09:06:42 @xq imho yes, very
2020-07-19 09:06:56 @xq but, disclaimer: it's not finished yet and stuff may break
2020-07-19 09:07:05 @xq that's why i need to clean out bitrot in older projects
2020-07-19 09:07:27 @xq when zig hits 1.0, it will be stable and it is not planned to continue development of language features
2020-07-19 09:09:14 @xq but imagine zig as a modernized C
2020-07-19 09:09:31 @xq no classes, no OOP as a language feature
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2020-07-19 09:24:21 epoch > modernized C
2020-07-19 09:24:31 epoch kind of like golang, but not google?
2020-07-19 09:24:37 @xq no, Go is not C
2020-07-19 09:24:50 @xq zig has no automatic memory management, no garbage collector
2020-07-19 09:25:05 epoch that's good.
2020-07-19 09:25:05 @xq you have struct,enum,union and functions
2020-07-19 09:25:07 @xq and pointers
2020-07-19 09:25:17 @xq but with a improved type system
2020-07-19 09:25:31 @xq "extern struct" is equivalent to a C struct, "extern union" to a C union
2020-07-19 09:26:00 @xq but zig unions are allowed to store the inactive union member in debug mode and will ensure you only access the active one
2020-07-19 09:26:09 epoch is there a way to force /really/ strict types?
2020-07-19 09:26:22 @xq you mean like distinct U32?
2020-07-19 09:26:33 @xq or can you elaborate?
2020-07-19 09:26:33 epoch like if I make a type named radians and a type named degrees and both are actually float
2020-07-19 09:26:38 @xq ah
2020-07-19 09:26:42 @xq there's a proposal for this
2020-07-19 09:26:51 @xq so it may happen
2020-07-19 09:26:54 @xq i'd love to see that as well :)
2020-07-19 09:26:54 epoch I'd like to be able to have the compiler bitch really loud about it
2020-07-19 09:27:14 @xq we already have a really cool feature called "nonexhaustive enums"
2020-07-19 09:27:18 epoch because right now I'm using a struct for each of those.
2020-07-19 09:27:19 @xq which is the right choice for IDs
2020-07-19 09:27:21 @xq so
2020-07-19 09:27:29 @xq const SomeID = enum(u32) { _ };
2020-07-19 09:27:44 @xq → SOmeID is non-arithmetic, but can be compared with == and != and is backed by a 32 bit integer :)
2020-07-19 09:28:24 epoch that's nifty.
2020-07-19 09:28:34 @xq yep
2020-07-19 09:28:43 @xq and zig has method call syntax
2020-07-19 09:28:56 @xq so you can declare functons inside a struct and do value.foo()
2020-07-19 09:29:24 @xq (and you can declare those on enums and unions too)
2020-07-19 09:29:27 @xq which is nice
2020-07-19 09:29:43 @xq my OpenGL wrapper is actually just a set of typed enums with methods :D
2020-07-19 09:31:07 @xq the type system is really advanced compared to C
2020-07-19 09:31:16 @xq which is one of the strengths
2020-07-19 09:31:27 epoch hrm. what makes a struct with methods not a class?
2020-07-19 09:31:51 @xq well, it's not classic OOP, so no builtin inheritance and all that stuff
2020-07-19 09:31:59 @xq no constructors, destructors, ...
2020-07-19 09:32:04 @xq but convencience in calling
2020-07-19 09:32:10 @xq how many c projects are there that are just
2020-07-19 09:32:18 @xq obj_init(), obj_foo(), obj_bar(), obj_delete)(
2020-07-19 09:32:19 @xq :D
2020-07-19 09:32:23 epoch yeah
2020-07-19 09:32:30 epoch and passing the same variable to the start of each
2020-07-19 09:32:33 @xq yep :D
2020-07-19 09:32:46 @xq pointers are also more finegrained which is absolutely awesome
2020-07-19 09:32:55 @xq and you have slices (ptr+len)
2020-07-19 09:33:28 @xq so instead of doing "void foo(uint8_t * bytes, size_t len)" you just do "fn foo(bytes: []u8) void"
2020-07-19 09:35:59 thombles zig looks super cool, especially its ability to compile C code for any platform
2020-07-19 09:36:33 @xq yep
2020-07-19 09:36:35 @xq this is also super-sexy
2020-07-19 09:36:50 @xq i had to test some code on my RPI yesterday
2020-07-19 09:36:52 thombles I'm waiting to see a bit more adoption before I jump on, I'm still on the never-ending treadmill of getting the hang of rust
2020-07-19 09:36:57 @xq zig cc -target arm-linux-musl foo.c
2020-07-19 09:37:22 thombles The new foundation is a great step
2020-07-19 09:37:25 @xq yeah
2020-07-19 09:37:31 @xq first-class cross compilation is such a nice project goal
2020-07-19 09:37:42 @xq more like "painless cross compilation"
2020-07-19 09:38:18 login the first compilation is always cross-compilation
2020-07-19 09:39:17 @xq my current project is mixing Zig and C++
2020-07-19 09:39:25 @xq which also works with cross compilation
2020-07-19 09:40:09 login how do you call zig functions from C++?
2020-07-19 09:53:57 @xq extern "C" void my_zig_fun(MyStruct foo);
2020-07-19 09:54:06 @xq zig has full support for C ABI
2020-07-19 10:00:13 @xq same goes the other way round
2020-07-19 10:00:20 @xq you can just import C headers in zig and use them
2020-07-19 10:22:17 login wow
2020-07-19 10:23:22 @xq yeah :D
2020-07-19 10:23:35 @xq translate-c is not perfect and struggles with a lot of macro magic
2020-07-19 10:23:41 @xq but it works for 95% of all cases
2020-07-19 10:23:47 @xq SDL just works for example
2020-07-19 10:24:11 login SDL being?
2020-07-19 10:33:32 @xq Simple Direct Media Layer
2020-07-19 10:33:38 @xq library for games and stuff
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2020-07-19 12:06:08 @tomasino xq: my pleasure
2020-07-19 12:10:26 @xq :)
2020-07-19 12:11:05 CommunistWolf oh hey, zig
2020-07-19 12:11:51 @xq hey CommunistWolf!
2020-07-19 12:11:58 @xq we are at least 3 now :D
2020-07-19 12:12:02 CommunistWolf :D
2020-07-19 12:12:26 CommunistWolf I did an advent of code in it last year, enjoyable language, compiler was still a lot buggy at the time though
2020-07-19 12:12:44 CommunistWolf I'll probably go back to it once I no longer have to dig through LLVM IR to work out what the bug in my code is ;)
2020-07-19 12:13:05 @xq it's waaay better now :D
2020-07-19 12:13:14 @xq usable in daily use
2020-07-19 12:13:56 CommunistWolf I actually popped in to wonder about linux-compatible, mobile-friendly gemini clients. my debianphone is very close to functional now, but of course, firefox is a pig on it
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2020-07-19 12:55:21 @tomasino oink
2020-07-19 13:16:54 wgreenhouse CommunistWolf: my phone has elpher :)
2020-07-19 13:25:55 omni I built and run ncgopher in Termux on android
2020-07-19 13:28:46 omni CommunistWolf: what phone do you run debian on?
2020-07-19 13:29:10 CommunistWolf pinephone
2020-07-19 13:29:38 CommunistWolf it has a terminal, but it's not going to be the best for it I think
2020-07-19 13:29:57 CommunistWolf something gnome+libhandy would probably work
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2020-07-19 14:10:17 natpen A random poll, in case anyone has opinions. I'm making an update to GUS so that it will "expire" catalogued content and thus trigger recrawls based on some heuristics. Do you think the following would be a decent first pass set of defaults? Homepage or gemlog index: 3 hours. Binary content: 30 days. Everything else: 7 days.
2020-07-19 14:12:55 natpen This also opens the door to allowing sites to specify their own expiration rules, if there was desire for that. I'm kinda hoping this would just work though
2020-07-19 14:12:57 Sario I know very little about server stuff, but I guess that sounds ok?
2020-07-19 14:13:54 natpen I guess... maybe the question wasn't super clear. How about... how often do you update pages on your site that _aren't_ part of your gemlog?
2020-07-19 14:19:00 natpen I'm probably overthinking this LOL. It's probably going to be a net decrease in crawl traffic to everyone's sites, so I should just try it :)
2020-07-19 14:19:26 @tomasino 7 days seems reasonable
2020-07-19 14:19:35 @tomasino even if people are doing it faster, we're smolweb
2020-07-19 14:19:36 @tomasino :D
2020-07-19 14:20:18 @tomasino what about a fibonacci expiry per resources
2020-07-19 14:20:37 @tomasino check in 1 day, if unchanged, then 1 day, then if unchanged, 2 days, then if unchanged 3 days, then if unchanged 5 days, then 8, 13, etc
2020-07-19 14:21:03 @tomasino things that are routinely updated would inherit a faster crawl and stuff that's been static a while would only get background updates
2020-07-19 14:21:07 @tomasino after a long time
2020-07-19 14:21:17 @tomasino more data for you to store, perhaps, but only an int, right?
2020-07-19 14:21:39 @tomasino you are already planning on storing last crawl date, so "interval" would be simple
2020-07-19 14:21:50 @tomasino if not fibbonaci, then just exponential
2020-07-19 14:21:55 natpen That would be amazing. I'm only just starting to track whether or not content changed vs last version as of this imminent update. So I think that would be a very doable extension
2020-07-19 14:22:13 @tomasino :D
2020-07-19 14:22:31 @tomasino and it reset when it updates back to 1 day, so... easy peasy
2020-07-19 14:22:46 @tomasino you could even set a max of 365 days if you want
2020-07-19 14:22:56 @tomasino or 60 or whatever feels right
2020-07-19 14:23:19 natpen Oh! Hmm. That's a really nice and simple idea. I like it a lot!
2020-07-19 14:23:39 ⚡ tomasino had a good idea! yay!!
2020-07-19 14:24:13 natpen erm, very off-topic, but how do you make messages like that??
2020-07-19 14:24:43 omni /me
2020-07-19 14:24:47 omni ?
2020-07-19 14:24:51 ⚡ omni
2020-07-19 14:25:41 ⚡ omni is an irc old-timer
2020-07-19 14:28:36 ⚡ tomasino loves IRC
2020-07-19 14:28:37 @tomasino :D
2020-07-19 14:30:46 Sario I'm very fond of IRC.
2020-07-19 14:31:12 Sario Still better then anything else out there, imo
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2020-07-19 14:33:42 omni /disco fever
2020-07-19 14:33:53 omni >:B
2020-07-19 14:35:10 omni but yeah, I've yet to find something better than IRC for chat
2020-07-19 14:36:51 @tomasino cheese is pretty good
2020-07-19 14:42:05 omni CommunistWolf: pinephone would've been my first guess, nice. progressing well?
2020-07-19 14:43:21 omni I'm a bit keen on giving kristall a spin https://github.com/MasterQ32/kristall
2020-07-19 14:44:13 omni so far I've only tried a few gemini clients written in rust, castor being the graphical one, to settle on ncgopher for now
2020-07-19 14:46:01 @tomasino kristall is pretty awesome
2020-07-19 14:46:27 @tomasino it was a pain to get all the Qt stuff set up to build it, but xq is working on packaging stuff so that shouldn't be a problem for long
2020-07-19 14:46:59 @xq tomasino: latest build is available as a AppImage or Windows build on https://kristall.random-projects.net/
2020-07-19 14:47:16 @xq omni: try kristall
2020-07-19 14:47:21 Sario omni: someone did a review of all the clients, gemini://kwiecien.us:1965/logarion/gemini-client-review.gmi
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2020-07-19 15:04:56 omni Sario: nice! I'll read that later
2020-07-19 15:06:11 omni since qt, kristall should run fine without x? I use sway/wayland on the desktop
2020-07-19 15:06:27 omni an alpine .apk would be nice ;)
2020-07-19 15:08:51 @tomasino appImage!! the greatest
2020-07-19 15:08:54 @tomasino you rule, xq
2020-07-19 15:08:57 omni actually, I think it was when I noticed that castor showed up in the alpinelinux edge repo that I began looking at gemini and gave it a try
2020-07-19 15:09:09 @xq omni: wayland is no problem
2020-07-19 15:09:39 omni neat!
2020-07-19 15:10:15 omni I should learn how to package for alpine. should be easy, just haven' tried yet
2020-07-19 15:12:39 @xq :D
2020-07-19 15:12:52 @xq i should motivate myself to continue some kristall stuff
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2020-07-19 15:25:19 @tomasino on the cert error page, prompt to clear/reset the cert we have on file?
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2020-07-19 16:56:39 CommunistWolf omni: it's basically usable now. mobian just got camera support
2020-07-19 16:57:25 CommunistWolf the TOTP application isnt' working for me, otherwise, it's a phone, but running debian
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2020-07-19 17:57:09 login hi coleman
2020-07-19 17:57:15 login envs
2020-07-19 17:57:25 login is pretty and cool, yes?
2020-07-19 17:58:38 coleman hey there
2020-07-19 17:59:12 coleman Yeah, I am enjoying it as a gemini hosting platform. I still haven't backed anything up! But it's on my todo list.
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2020-07-19 22:04:52 omni CommunistWolf: that's awesome! although I'd probably run pmos on it if I had one, since I've fallen for alpinelinux
2020-07-19 22:06:44 omni I didn't know about mobian, kewl
2020-07-19 22:15:02 CommunistWolf postmarketos is reasonable, but crosscompiling for it is a pain
2020-07-19 22:15:38 CommunistWolf I have some huge rust projects I want to run on it, it's really painful to do that on-phone
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2020-07-20 04:43:26 luna tfw you accidentally send a mailing list reply to the sender instead of the list
2020-07-20 04:43:31 luna wh oops
2020-07-20 04:47:25 caranatar I have to admit that I've never used mailing lists much so the first time I sent a message to the gemini list it was a big "oh god i hope i'm doing this right i'm probably not and everybody is gonna hate me for some reason" moment
2020-07-20 04:52:10 luna i also realized that i fucked up something i posted, forgot that pem encoding exists and that increases filesizes
2020-07-20 04:52:15 luna i feel really dumb
2020-07-20 04:52:49 luna no idea how i passed that when i was writing that email in the first place :P
2020-07-20 04:55:46 luna i've just been spending all day messing with kde because i might switch to it soon
2020-07-20 04:55:56 luna also feel half awake even though i got up pretty late agh
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2020-07-20 10:09:58 djph caranatar: hah, even with being on several mailing lists, the same thought goes through my head every time I start writing
2020-07-20 10:11:41 kevinsan i like when people make daft mistakes, because i feel less daft about my own many daft mistakes.
2020-07-20 10:13:55 djph caranatar: I always have trouble with balancing writing "smart questions" and "not having war and peace"
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2020-07-20 11:18:09 ⚡ omni blurts out an idea
2020-07-20 11:18:26 omni a web-proxy, to browse web content through gemini
2020-07-20 11:18:48 omni perhaps something readerviewy
2020-07-20 11:43:17 natpen Instageminipaper :)
2020-07-20 11:55:42 kensanata Heh.
2020-07-20 11:55:48 kensanata It does sound promising.
2020-07-20 11:56:21 kensanata After all, other people have been translating the HTML of their blogs to Gemini.
2020-07-20 11:56:40 kensanata And I've translated Wikipedia's wikitext to gemtext...
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2020-07-20 15:01:16 kevinsan omni, I wrote up on readerviewy stuff that might help you here: https://gitlab.com/ksangeelee/html2gmi
2020-07-20 15:01:33 kevinsan Here are some examples generated using this - gemini://gemini.susa.net/gen/
2020-07-20 15:20:02 kensanata That's the one!
2020-07-20 15:20:21 makeworld kevinsan: Cool project!
2020-07-20 15:22:00 makeworld I noticed you have a diff on the README though, you should be able to highlight that if you start the block with: ```diff
2020-07-20 15:22:48 kevinsan makeworld, I'm going to tie it in with https://gitlab.com/ksangeelee/send-tab-url so that I can click a button in Firefox and send the current page to Gemini space
2020-07-20 15:23:42 makeworld Hmm interesting
2020-07-20 15:23:48 makeworld Pretty cool!
2020-07-20 15:24:33 kevinsan I'll emphasize that really none of the hard work is mine - it's 99% Reader Mode and html2text. they do a good job of sorting out the mess that is HTML.
2020-07-20 15:26:18 makeworld Yeah I saw the reader thing, that's cool
2020-07-20 15:26:33 makeworld You should post it in the list!
2020-07-20 15:29:46 kevinsan thanks for the diff tip, looks nice.
2020-07-20 15:32:02 omni xq: I just compiled kristall on alinelinux, extra packages my system needed in order to build were: qt5-qtbase-dev qtchooser qt5-qtsvg-dev qt5-qtmultimedia-dev
2020-07-20 15:32:18 @xq more info for buildinstructions !:)
2020-07-20 15:32:21 omni *alpinelinux (fingers...)
2020-07-20 15:39:26 @xq anything else that is important?
2020-07-20 15:51:12 omni xq: not that I know of, but I probablye had some prerequisites already installed, like make through build-base and some qt5 things since I run other qt stuff like qutebrowser
2020-07-20 15:51:40 @xq well, soomebody will complain eventually :D
2020-07-20 15:56:16 omni yeah, but make/build-base should be pretty obvious
2020-07-20 15:58:06 omni some qt packages may not be, like libraries kristall links to, right?
2020-07-20 15:59:34 omni qtchooser was to get a symlink in my $PATH to qmake from qt5-qtbase-dev
2020-07-20 16:02:35 omni kevinsan: that's pretty neat, thanks!
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2020-07-20 17:09:17 kensanata I'm enjoying clicking on gemini://typed-hole.org/roulette
2020-07-20 17:20:11 kevinsan kensanata, there's a time-sink if ever I saw one. could you imagine doing this on the web? click-bait...click-bait...click-bait...link-farm... ... ... click-bait
2020-07-20 17:28:34 dkibi xq: when I get redirected then click on a link and then click back I end up on the redirecting url again (this is annoying with the roulette)
2020-07-20 17:29:22 @xq dkibi: huh? that shouldn't happen
2020-07-20 17:31:38 dkibi I'm on 7fbf49b216895d6870f46f54ab8e1289f541a723
2020-07-20 17:35:07 kensanata kevinsan: Goes to show that a new protocol and a new text format won't uplift our monkey brains.
2020-07-20 17:36:37 kevinsan yup, but at least all the content so far has actually been worth reading. quite refreshing really.
2020-07-20 17:39:21 kensanata Heh. I ended up on http://ifmud.port4000.com/
2020-07-20 17:39:30 kensanata People still play muds and mushes?
2020-07-20 17:40:41 kevinsan do we have an RSS reader/parser for gemtext?
2020-07-20 17:41:02 kensanata How would that work?
2020-07-20 17:41:27 kensanata You mean: parse a bunch of gemtext files in a directory and take "# headers" and modification times into account?
2020-07-20 17:42:25 kevinsan Not sure. I'm looking at one of the BBC News RSS feeds and thinking - how can I look at this in a Gemini browser?
2020-07-20 17:44:27 omni didn't I read about something like RSS for gemini at the mailing list..?
2020-07-20 17:44:37 kevinsan I suppose just grep out the links, or parse the XML - just seems like the kind of thing that would have been done already.
2020-07-20 17:44:53 caranatar kensanata: > people still play muds and mushes? < that's a weird question to ask over the irc channel for a new gopher-like protocol :)
2020-07-20 17:44:57 kevinsan omni, do we have an archive of the mailing list? I've only been on it for about aweek
2020-07-20 17:45:15 kensanata caranatar: Hah. I guess I mean: does anybody here play? Which one?
2020-07-20 17:45:35 caranatar tbf, i haven't in years so yknow
2020-07-20 17:45:36 kensanata https://lists.orbitalfox.eu/archives/gemini/2020/date.html
2020-07-20 17:45:44 caranatar i used to play a lot of carrion fields
2020-07-20 17:45:54 kensanata caranatar: I checked my blog and remembered giving them a try in 2018 and 2009.
2020-07-20 17:46:08 kensanata I used to play a lot of Elendor.
2020-07-20 17:46:25 kensanata Back around the Y2K bug. :D
2020-07-20 17:46:53 kensanata kevinsan: Ah, a converter from RSS to Gemini.
2020-07-20 17:47:35 kensanata You'd need a HTML to Gemtext converter, too.
2020-07-20 17:47:47 omni kevinsan: the list url kensanata gave is also at gemini.circumlunar.space
2020-07-20 17:48:31 omni I wish https://gemini.circumlunar.space was more up to date with gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space
2020-07-20 17:49:14 kensanata Writing a RSS to Gemtext converter for arbitrary feeds sounds interesting... but I don't think I'm going to do it because I don't see myself actually using it.
2020-07-20 17:49:24 Sario I thought soldierpunk was servering both from the same source files
2020-07-20 17:54:22 omni doesn't look like it
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2020-07-20 20:17:31 lukee kevinsan: not sure if you are around, but I really like the html2text examples you converted
2020-07-20 20:18:27 lukee i've been playing with the Go port of the same "readability" library - to try to make something portable
2020-07-20 20:18:44 lukee in the sense of being cross-platform
2020-07-20 20:33:42 kevinsan hi lukee, yes the library does a great job of converting. I think that html2text could be modified to output even better results, but needs more Yacc knowledge than I currently have.
2020-07-20 20:35:07 kevinsan I am slightly reticent about pushing a tool that encourages verbatim copying of web content - not so much ethical issues, more about encouraging original Gemini content.
2020-07-20 20:36:28 kevinsan however there are lots of pages that do add value to Gemini content (Vim cheat-sheet, for example)
2020-07-20 20:37:20 lukee I hear where you are coming from.
2020-07-20 20:37:54 lukee On the other hand it is a luxury to spend more time in a clean content environment away from the distractions and cruft of the web
2020-07-20 20:39:16 kevinsan exactly. it surprised me how much of a difference it makes.
2020-07-20 20:39:40 lukee my thinking is often one wishes to read the content of a page linked from gemini - often thoughtful content mostly content focussed, without necessarily breaking out a full web browser session
2020-07-20 20:41:21 lukee but then probably if you wanted to explore ongoing content from that linked web page, you probably need a webbrowser at that stage
2020-07-20 20:43:03 lukee so there is a set of documents at the border between gemini:// and https:// that are the candidates for sensible simplification
2020-07-20 20:43:18 kevinsan Yes, readability leaves pages very much in the spirit of Gemini & Gopher. The fact that I bothered to convert a page means, by proxy, the links are probably worth investing in too.
2020-07-20 20:44:06 lukee it is funny that the gemini spec itself travels cleanly into html and back again into gemtext with no loss of content!
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2020-07-20 20:45:02 kevinsan That reminds me, I need to check an anomaly on that page...
2020-07-20 20:49:21 kevinsan it wasn't a conversion anomaly - there's a mistake in the page (<pre> tag inline at line 259 of the html file)
2020-07-20 20:53:11 lukee is it a mistake? I read that as a short, but meaningful preformatted text region. It is a quote of a bit of code - namely the "h" element type
2020-07-20 20:53:46 lukee probably it would be nicer as <code>h</code> but there is no such element in gemtext (which is I assume the source)
2020-07-20 20:54:46 lukee i suppose you shouldnt really have a <pre> inside a <p>, strictly speaking it should close the <p> before opening the <pre>
2020-07-20 20:54:48 kevinsan i assumed it was meant to be inline. that makes sense now.
2020-07-20 20:55:17 lukee it is a bit opaque and does look a bit funny though I agree
2020-07-20 20:56:33 lukee on a slightly different note I did a couple of small changes to GemiNaut last night
2020-07-20 20:56:52 kevinsan I'd be glad to test them if you need
2020-07-20 20:56:54 lukee There is an update to Terminal.css to make the links and bullets prettier - with a hanging indent
2020-07-20 20:57:13 lukee I uploaded the CSS here if you want to try it: https://pastebin.com/9jbv25Rw
2020-07-20 20:57:33 lukee just use the content to replace Terminal.css in the GMIConverters/themes folder
2020-07-20 20:58:27 lukee I also added keyboard accelerators for the menus (the hot key is underlined). So for example Bookmarks is now Alt+B
2020-07-20 20:58:48 lukee I havent got a binary release ready yet though, but that is coming soon
2020-07-20 20:59:54 kevinsan Great - the lists look good, but I don't really recall them looking bad :)
2020-07-20 21:00:26 lukee its just a small typographical thing, but before they just wrapped all the way back to the left margin
2020-07-20 21:00:33 kevinsan one issue I've had is when updating, I have to manually copy my configuration to the new directory. Is there a better way to do this?
2020-07-20 21:01:15 lukee when you say your configuration - what do you mean by that?
2020-07-20 21:01:42 lukee you have some custom themes or tweaks?
2020-07-20 21:02:02 kevinsan So, Windows creates a directory that's specific to the exe in AppData\something. This holds all my bookmarks and homepage.
2020-07-20 21:02:47 kevinsan I've updated Geminaut twice, I think, and both times I had to locate this directory, figure out the new one, and copy the config files from old to new.
2020-07-20 21:03:34 kevinsan It's been years since I did any Win32 dev, so I'm not up on the best way to describe this (the fact that I refer to Win32 will give you an idea!)
2020-07-20 21:04:12 lukee Ok I'm with you now. Yes this is the user profile - I think its automatically created by the .Net libraries as a more robust altenative to the registry
2020-07-20 21:04:56 kevinsan Yes, it's in C:\Users\Kevin\AppData\Local\GemiNaut\GemiNaut.exe_Url_vbmrbwo0gb24izvvwojoq0w2xpmy4zbj
2020-07-20 21:05:27 lukee the locations get automatically named and versioned by .NET according to some magic scheme and the app version
2020-07-20 21:06:17 lukee Yes I do want to get it so GemiNaut will pick up your previous settings if you have them. But it doesnt do it at the moment.
2020-07-20 21:06:37 kevinsan Perhaps there's a way to just override the auto-generated directory name?
2020-07-20 21:07:12 kevinsan in any case, it's not an issue, just a minor annoyance.
2020-07-20 21:07:19 lukee there probably is
2020-07-20 21:08:11 lukee the technical problem is that as the app evolves the user settings might have a different structure, so they are not automatically guaranteed to be compatible with later versions
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2020-07-20 21:08:51 lukee so really they previous config has to be loaded, parsed, reinterpreted rather than just copied over (although that will usually work)
2020-07-20 21:10:27 lukee Its mainly the bookmarks I think that is the most valuable content
2020-07-20 21:10:51 lukee I'll add it to my todo list :)
2020-07-20 21:21:41 lukee huh - it seems .NET has a method to "upgrade" the settings from a previous version - so it could be quite simple: Properties.Settings.Default.Upgrade()
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2020-07-20 21:26:53 kevinsan that's handy. presumably it will handle version jumps too?
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2020-07-20 22:25:34 login presumably
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2020-07-20 23:39:57 luna i wrote a go program a few days back to that shows neofetch on a gemini page
2020-07-20 23:40:04 luna not sure if it's cursed or brilliant
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2020-07-21 03:30:26 kayw ooo
2020-07-21 03:30:30 kayw that's cool
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2020-07-21 03:33:18 luna go's exec package sure can do wonders
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2020-07-21 10:57:27 kensanata For a second, I wondered whether there was a gemini2pdf somewhere...
2020-07-21 10:57:56 kensanata Then I remembered that any markdown to PDF would probably also do it, except for the links.
2020-07-21 11:08:31 omni I guess Pandoc dos not yet know of .gmi =)
2020-07-21 11:16:23 omni I really like kristall but I'm so used to not having to point and click even when surfing the web, thanks to qutebrowser
2020-07-21 11:18:18 omni I have no idea how much work it is to implement vim-like keybindings in a project like kristall, since I'm not a developer, so I'm hesitant to asking for such features
2020-07-21 11:19:39 omni but perhaps it wouldn't hurt, I should probably create an issue or two later and I'm fine with them having low to no priority
2020-07-21 11:21:28 omni but I also began thinking, what about a browser engine for gemini? (like WebKit, Blink, Gecko etc)
2020-07-21 11:31:15 kevinsan kensanata, if you convert gemini to HTML, then omni's suggestion of pandoc should work, including the links.
2020-07-21 11:54:09 kensanata omni: the Gemini app for iOS in testing is basically a Firefox without the HTML rendering, I think?
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2020-07-21 14:55:51 omni kensanata: what app is that? couldn't find it
2020-07-21 14:57:12 kensanata It's in Testflight.
2020-07-21 14:57:35 Sario528 If you need a tester, I have a spare iphone
2020-07-21 14:57:53 kensanata It's by Petr Vernigorov
2020-07-21 14:58:12 kensanata He's on the mailing list and surely happy to hand out invites.
2020-07-21 14:58:31 kensanata Look for Petr or Pitr.
2020-07-21 14:58:49 kensanata Description: "Everything should be working."
2020-07-21 14:58:51 kensanata I love it.
2020-07-21 15:00:01 wgreenhouse kensanata: so it's [ab]using the iOS safari/webkit to be a gemini client? :D
2020-07-21 15:00:49 kensanata He had some sort of post about Firefox, but you know how it is inside the golden cage.
2020-07-21 15:00:54 kensanata It's Apples all the way down.
2020-07-21 15:01:04 wgreenhouse right. firefox isn't firefox on an iOS device.
2020-07-21 15:02:20 Sario528 apple mandates that all apps on the appstore use safari/webkit as the base for their browser.
2020-07-21 15:02:26 wgreenhouse right
2020-07-21 15:02:40 Sario528 Even google chrome is actually safari on ios
2020-07-21 15:03:03 wgreenhouse which is sort of a funny reversal of the family tree
2020-07-21 15:03:10 Sario528 One of the reasons I don't care for ios
2020-07-21 15:03:14 wgreenhouse (blink/chrome is a descendant of khtml/webkit)
2020-07-21 15:03:49 wgreenhouse gecko/firefox being safari on ios is weirder, since that's a totally unrelated tree of development
2020-07-21 15:06:01 kensanata I mean, the nice part about this strategy is that there's stars and bookmarks and history and all of that.
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2020-07-21 15:07:52 Sario528 I wonder if Apple would accept a gemini browser that didn't use safari.
2020-07-21 15:07:57 wgreenhouse kensanata: yeah--sounds pretty sweet for making it look and feel like a "real" iOS app
2020-07-21 15:08:22 kensanata Sario528: I wonder whether it will allow an app with that name...
2020-07-21 15:09:33 wgreenhouse an app mentioning the word browser, you mean?
2020-07-21 15:11:17 kensanata No, Gemini
2020-07-21 15:11:27 kensanata Last time I googled for Gemini app there was all sorts.
2020-07-21 15:11:48 kensanata Gemini Storage Cleaner
2020-07-21 15:11:56 kensanata Gemini: Buy Bitcoin
2020-07-21 15:12:02 kensanata Gemini Rue
2020-07-21 15:12:15 kensanata Gemini Strike: ...
2020-07-21 15:12:16 wgreenhouse yeah, there's some shitcoin called gemini, unfortunately
2020-07-21 15:12:21 wgreenhouse 🤣
2020-07-21 15:12:27 Sario eew
2020-07-21 15:12:28 kensanata Hm, I guess the list shows that anything goes.
2020-07-21 15:12:31 wgreenhouse a lot of that kind of stuff in android stores too
2020-07-21 15:12:44 kensanata And that's not counting all the horoscope apps/
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2020-07-21 15:13:19 kensanata Steve Jobs: "It's all about curation!" People: "Hell YEAH!" Steve Jobs: "Hurr hurr hurr."
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2020-07-21 18:30:20 natpen GUS just got a new cert, fyi, for anyone with clients that pay attention to that sort of thing :) the new one is valid for 5 years, and about 1/7 the size of the previous one!
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2020-07-21 18:58:11 CommunistWolf how do EC and RSA keys compare, computationally? is verification about as cheap for both?
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2020-07-21 19:16:28 natpen I'm not sure! I'm not a crypto expert, I just know everyone has been talking a lot about how big full letsencrypt cert chains are compared to a small, self-signed cert.
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2020-07-21 21:22:51 CommunistWolf Mm, i find it hard to care about a few bytes ^^
2020-07-21 21:24:57 CommunistWolf http://nicj.net/files/performance_comparison_of_elliptic_curve_and_rsa_digital_signatures.pdf
2020-07-21 21:26:54 CommunistWolf Significantly slower verification in ecdsa
2020-07-21 21:27:10 CommunistWolf Dunno about ed25519, but, worth keeping in mind
2020-07-21 21:32:54 kevinsan wow, signature verification - RSA 0.01s, ECC 0.86s. Nearly one second to verify a signature.
2020-07-21 21:37:01 CommunistWolf I assume it's a lot faster today, but worth measuring
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2020-07-21 22:09:43 omni that counters what I've been led to believe, but I'm certainly not a cryptographer either
2020-07-21 22:10:48 omni how about testing with openssl speed(1)?
2020-07-21 22:22:07 omni many seem to advocate ecc over rsa for performance, but perhaps that is server-side and without client certificates?
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2020-07-21 22:23:02 omni I'm too tired to make anything out of this https://bench.cr.yp.to/results-sign.html
2020-07-21 22:23:26 omni but cr.yp.to should generally be a good resource
2020-07-21 22:25:09 omni found and skimmed Post-Quantum TLS on Embedded Systems, but still tired and no cryptographer, https://eprint.iacr.org/2020/308.pdf
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2020-07-21 22:32:55 omni CommunistWolf: https://www.websecurity.digicert.com/content/dam/websitesecurity/digitalassets/desktop/pdfs/whitepaper/Elliptic_Curve_Cryptography_ECC_WP_en_us.pdf
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2020-07-21 22:54:30 kevinsan omni, that Symantec paper kind of backs up the origin one that CommunistWolf posted. ECC is 20 times slower on verify.
2020-07-21 22:55:53 kevinsan I'm a bit disappointed that they weren't more specific about the hardware specs, because while relative numbers are useful, it's the absolute values that might allow estimates on specific hardware.
2020-07-21 22:57:49 CommunistWolf for specific hardware, you're always going to have to bench it yourself
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2020-07-21 23:15:31 luna got manjaro kde up and running
2020-07-21 23:15:41 luna kristall works pretty well, i'm impressed
2020-07-21 23:19:33 omni kevinsan: I would like to see comparisons of larger keys for each
2020-07-21 23:20:03 djph keys for whatnow?
2020-07-21 23:25:52 kevinsan the original paper suggests that ECC verify time grows linearly with key size, by 571 bits it was taking 4.53s to verify on the 2GHz P4 vs 0.03s for RSA
2020-07-21 23:34:17 kevinsan this paper https://www.shiftleft.org/papers/fff/fff.pdf makes interesting reading - e.g. it mentions the CPU features and pre-calculation techniques that can improve performance.
2020-07-21 23:47:41 kevinsan djph, it seems client certificates using ECC keys will be slower to verify than those using RSA. it's of little practical concern, but kinda interesting.
2020-07-21 23:48:06 djph sounds about right - elliptic-curve is "hard(tm)"
2020-07-22 00:52:29 kevinsan alex, I updated your wiki. took me a whole evening.
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2020-07-22 05:31:20 kensanata 🌏🚀🚀
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2020-07-22 06:52:10 kensanata Wohoo, recovered some files from backup.
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2020-07-22 09:24:44 kevinsan kensanata, that sed interface thing is quite interesting.
2020-07-22 09:26:56 kensanata It is! If only I felt better about ed. :)
2020-07-22 09:28:19 kevinsan ha, yes i get you. on the other hand, that kind of tool evolved out of a limited environment.
2020-07-22 09:28:41 kevinsan i'm writing you a bash script for the wiki.
2020-07-22 09:28:57 kensanata kevinsan: What is it going to do?
2020-07-22 09:30:30 kevinsan accept a wiki URL, fetch its raw, pause (while you go edit it), push raw to the equivalent titan URL when done.
2020-07-22 09:31:01 kevinsan leaving me to Vim the content while it's paused. something like that anyway.
2020-07-22 09:31:24 kensanata Heh.
2020-07-22 09:31:31 kensanata Did you see the two bash functions I wrote?
2020-07-22 09:31:42 kensanata They're not very clever, but could potentially be used.
2020-07-22 09:32:20 kensanata https://alexschroeder.ch/cgit/gemini-titan/tree/gemini.sh
2020-07-22 09:32:26 kevinsan I saw one bash script to send titan, but it was confusing because it didn't relate at all to the previous gemini/titan commands
2020-07-22 09:32:35 kensanata Hm.
2020-07-22 09:32:58 kensanata If you stumble upon the confusing reference again, let me know. I'd love to fix the documentation.
2020-07-22 09:34:09 kensanata Also, I'm not very good at bashing stuff, so I'd be happy to replace what I have with anything is easier.
2020-07-22 09:35:39 kevinsan ok, so gemini.sh is pretty much what I was going to write. would have helped a lot.
2020-07-22 09:35:57 kensanata So sorry I didn't tell you earlier.
2020-07-22 09:36:39 kevinsan your bash looks fine - what kind of crazy high bar do you set for yourself??!!
2020-07-22 09:36:58 kensanata Haha. Who's the person that wrote an entire Gemini client in bash?
2020-07-22 09:37:25 kensanata Anyway, I mentioned the Bash code at the end of this page: gemini://transjovian.org/page/Writing
2020-07-22 09:38:03 kensanata You get there via "How to use the wiki" → "Writing a page on the wiki" but perhaps there should be a more prominent place?
2020-07-22 09:38:44 kensanata Also I put them at the end of that page because I think I'm not going to maintain them. But if there's a Bash enthusiast, I'd love to link to something better. Maybe with vim integration. :)
2020-07-22 09:39:25 kevinsan Just link to bash.sh, with a usage comment at the top.
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2020-07-22 10:09:09 kensanata If anybody wants to see what it looks like in Emacs, here's a blog post with a video: https://alexschroeder.ch/wiki/2020-06-11_Demonstrating_Gemini_Wiki
2020-07-22 10:09:31 kensanata I guess if your Gemini client knows how to play video...
2020-07-22 10:09:46 kensanata gemini://alexschroeder.ch/page/2020-06-11_Demonstrating_Gemini_Wiki
2020-07-22 10:10:10 kensanata Emacs doesn't... it downloads the file and then tells me the MIME type isn't supported. Sad!
2020-07-22 10:12:25 kensanata Time to look for lunch...
2020-07-22 10:16:01 omni https://mwl.io/nonfiction/tools#ed
2020-07-22 10:16:31 kensanata omni: I have that book.
2020-07-22 10:17:50 omni nice!
2020-07-22 10:19:05 kensanata Sadly, reading a book is not the same as practicing a skill...
2020-07-22 10:41:12 omni unfortunately, no
2020-07-22 10:44:41 omni reminds me that I had a colleague once who had (and had read) All The Books(tm), but it didn't really show in his work
2020-07-22 10:45:07 omni whenever we introduced a new technology he bought and read a book about it
2020-07-22 10:46:22 omni and I thought that even if you could learn just by reading a book, the tech would change before you were through
2020-07-22 10:47:06 omni that doesn't go for tools like ed and the likes, but a lot of the things in the modern clouded landscape
2020-07-22 10:47:58 kevinsan it would at the speed that I read. I recently bought the Lua 5.2 Reference Manual, and I'm currently on page 4
2020-07-22 10:49:33 kevinsan I read the original manual for 'ex', and was able to go through it in Vim - pretty much all of it is still relevant, though I think it was written in the mid 70s
2020-07-22 10:59:46 omni ex is in the likes of ed and lua doesn't change that dramatically, right?
2020-07-22 11:01:10 omni I meant, for some things a book may already be somewhat outdated by the time you get your hands on it
2020-07-22 11:01:14 kevinsan yes, it's what vi what built on top of, and what Vim copied.
2020-07-22 11:02:01 omni some less established things
2020-07-22 11:02:23 kevinsan but I agree, a lot of tech is created for non-tech reasons - i'm starting to think corporate incentives are at odds with my brain.
2020-07-22 11:02:51 kevinsan it just evolves for commercial gain, not technical advantage.
2020-07-22 11:03:14 kevinsan (though commercial gain might require technical advantage, it's not the driver)
2020-07-22 11:03:19 omni otoh this was a rh/centos guy so he was probably used to things staying at their versions for many years
2020-07-22 11:04:29 kevinsan thing is though, the hammer in my toolbox looks just like my dad's
2020-07-22 11:07:16 kevinsan so much of the original stuff written 'emerged' from the CPU architecture, and that hasn't changed at all. I'm starting to see it as profoundly relevant
2020-07-22 11:07:33 kevinsan rather than my prevailing view of it being a bit archaic.
2020-07-22 11:19:11 kensanata There's also an age aspect. I've seen so many technologies come and go, I no longer believe in them. So I was late to git, I don't believe in the cloud, new programming languages, and so on. There's a tipping point, perhaps, where one's doubts start to outgrow progress.
2020-07-22 11:19:29 kensanata And then you're old and think: those editors from the seventies and eighties, they're not so bad!
2020-07-22 11:19:55 tadzik heh, it's a bit like with TV series
2020-07-22 11:20:12 tadzik wait 3-6 months and nobody calls them "the best one ever" anymore
2020-07-22 11:20:38 tadzik wait a few years, see if it's still top rated, then maybe take a look
2020-07-22 11:20:43 tadzik same with tech :)
2020-07-22 11:20:44 kevinsan ironically, it's the explosion of new tech that's pushed me to Vim - I can get good at one environment, rather than mediocre with 10
2020-07-22 11:22:03 kensanata At work, we're slowly starting the move from Eclipse to IntelliJ (we all use Java)
2020-07-22 11:22:11 kensanata and Emacs is my IRC client.
2020-07-22 11:22:52 kevinsan weird, because I can't imagine IntelliJ really has *that* much to offer as a productivity gain. Sales must have offered a good kickback
2020-07-22 11:23:35 kensanata I don't think so. My thinking is that the push was driven by some people in the company that really don't like the Eclipse Javascript support.
2020-07-22 11:23:50 kevinsan tadzik, exactly - why waste time just to be first see something. it's not like the show's going to deteriorate over time.
2020-07-22 11:24:50 tadzik kevinsan: there is a potential upside of being the first to the party and thus automatically becoming a significant community figure :)
2020-07-22 11:25:42 tadzik I've bootstraped my professional career off of being a major contributor to Perl 6 at that time. Not because I was very good at it – there just weren't too many others :P
2020-07-22 11:25:56 kevinsan i could never become a significant community figure, unless notorious counts as significant
2020-07-22 11:26:10 kensanata tadzik: Nice!
2020-07-22 11:26:21 kevinsan i have an almost pathalogical urge to say what I think!
2020-07-22 11:26:26 tadzik so like kensanata says: there is an age aspect to it
2020-07-22 11:26:41 tadzik or s/age/experience/, perhaps
2020-07-22 11:27:06 kensanata One hopes they correlate... at least the hope correlates with age‽
2020-07-22 11:28:08 tadzik heh, hopes, yes ;) You know this thing where someone has 10 years of experience with something, but actually ten times 1 year, over and over? ;)
2020-07-22 11:28:52 tadzik not all practice makes perfect, annoyingly
2020-07-22 11:29:07 tadzik eh, grumpiness for sure comes with age :(
2020-07-22 11:29:40 kevinsan doesn't grumpiness come with contentment?
2020-07-22 11:30:57 kensanata Nah, I can tell you: no true. Based on experience.
2020-07-22 11:32:23 kevinsan i mean, if i'm struggling financially, i'll moan about money. valid. if my partner cheats on me, i'll moan about my woes. valid. if i'm feeling contented, i'll moan about spaces after a '#' character.
2020-07-22 11:32:29 kevinsan :)
2020-07-22 11:33:45 kevinsan i couldn't resist that little joke (pathological, see?), but the point is that the more content you are, the more focused you become on minutae
2020-07-22 11:34:45 tadzik er, you sure you meant "more" twice there?
2020-07-22 11:35:41 kevinsan no, because the essence of grumpiness is complaining about minutae
2020-07-22 11:36:42 kevinsan s/no,/yes, i am/
2020-07-22 11:36:43 tadzik I'm not sure I follow. If I am content (as in: generally happy), I'm less inclined to moan about minor things, I think. Or maybe more, since I no longer having anything major to moan about?
2020-07-22 11:37:32 ⚡ kensanata meta moans
2020-07-22 11:38:04 kevinsan the latter, because other things *become* important. that's the way i see it, anyway. happiness grants you license to moan.
2020-07-22 11:38:14 kevinsan or something like that anyway
2020-07-22 11:38:54 kevinsan anyway, i'm off to chase some birds off my lawn. little beggars scratching up my grass.
2020-07-22 11:41:11 tadzik *nod nod*
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2020-07-22 12:40:21 omni I didn't know of "contentment" before https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contentment
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2020-07-22 13:02:15 ~tiwesdaeg xq: where do you keep those binary versions of kristall?
2020-07-22 13:07:27 @xq on my server
2020-07-22 13:07:33 @xq and there's only one nightly :D
2020-07-22 13:07:40 @xq because i didn't do anything since then :D
2020-07-22 13:12:56 ~tiwesdaeg in my ever fun exciting os rotation, this computer is using openbsd 6.7
2020-07-22 13:13:07 ~tiwesdaeg I can not find the qmake package anywhere
2020-07-22 13:13:19 ~tiwesdaeg I was just going to see if you had an openbsd binary
2020-07-22 13:14:14 @xq :D
2020-07-22 13:14:21 @xq nah, i only have Appimage (linux) and a windows build
2020-07-22 13:14:31 ~tiwesdaeg hrmm
2020-07-22 13:14:55 ~tiwesdaeg these package maintainers, always messing with stuff
2020-07-22 13:25:41 ~tiwesdaeg I figured it out, it's hiding in /usr/local/lib/qt5/bin/
2020-07-22 13:43:25 ~tiwesdaeg xq: I got it to build
2020-07-22 13:43:35 ~tiwesdaeg the makefile isn't openbsd make friendly
2020-07-22 14:07:02 @xq i happily accept pull requests making the makefile nicer for all
2020-07-22 14:17:20 ~tiwesdaeg I'm make ignorant ;P
2020-07-22 14:17:29 ~tiwesdaeg I'll see if I can figure out why it is sad
2020-07-22 14:17:41 ~tiwesdaeg I ended up running gmake, which works to a point
2020-07-22 14:17:46 ~tiwesdaeg but the build fails
2020-07-22 14:18:02 ~tiwesdaeg then I rane make in the build folder and it finished
2020-07-22 14:18:12 ~tiwesdaeg s/rane/ran
2020-07-22 14:49:37 coleman Is anyone aware of a gemini response parser implemented as a standalone rust crate?
2020-07-22 14:50:35 coleman Something that could take a tcp response stream and yield a Vector of types: H1, link, text, rawtext
2020-07-22 14:50:53 coleman and headers too
2020-07-22 15:01:17 kensanata dctrud: I just saw the computer naming question again. I use bumblee genus names. So right now I'm working on melanobombus, my wife has megalobombus, the VM I'm renting is sibirocobombus, and I've had various others in the past: alpinobombus, orientalibombus... gemini://alexschroeder.ch/page/NamingScheme
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2020-07-22 15:40:29 dkibi sorry I didn't follow all the discussion
2020-07-22 15:40:41 dkibi kevinsan: did you ask about the #?
2020-07-22 16:09:07 kevinsan dkibi, no I was making a silly joke re: the '#' referred to the recent mailing list topic (though I actually have no opinion on the subject)
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2020-07-22 17:02:11 kevinsan omni, CommunistWolf: in case you're interested, i did some (crude) time measurements of ECC vs RSA verification, and there's no practical difference (gemini://gemini.susa.net/ecc_vs_rsa_verify.gmi)
2020-07-22 17:14:14 dkibi kevinsan: yeah I was also referencing the ml topic (I wanted to bring something up that a different character could be choosen to mark the tag))
2020-07-22 17:43:22 omni kevinsan: yesm but I'm interested in larger keysm
2020-07-22 17:44:05 omni like rsa:4096 vs secp521r1
2020-07-22 17:51:29 login why secp521r1?
2020-07-22 17:51:34 login also, what does r1 stand for here?
2020-07-22 17:51:41 login is it over a binary field or restricted field?
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2020-07-22 18:18:25 kevinsan omni, yes that curve is slower - 4ms average per verify vs 2.8ms for RSA
2020-07-22 18:37:20 login what about ed448
2020-07-22 18:37:23 login Goldilocks curve
2020-07-22 18:37:37 login compared to rsa-4096, say
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2020-07-22 19:29:40 kevinsan login, i don't have a recent enough openssl to try with ed448 or ed25519
2020-07-22 19:29:57 login ah, i see
2020-07-22 19:30:02 login you should try it with libressl then
2020-07-22 19:30:14 login or boringssl
2020-07-22 19:30:18 login google tink maybe?
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2020-07-22 20:09:32 omni it was only an example
2020-07-22 20:11:51 login ah
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2020-07-22 21:30:11 CommunistWolf kevinsan: good to know!
2020-07-22 21:52:15 login CommunistWolf: would you like to live in a commune?
2020-07-22 23:00:44 omni_ https://blog.cr.yp.to/20140323-ecdsa.html
2020-07-22 23:18:06 kevinsan omni_, great find, thanks! thats a gem of a document.
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2020-07-22 23:38:22 makeworld I'm thinking about adding a cache for permanent redirects in Amfora
2020-07-22 23:38:52 makeworld I was thinking it was just going to be for redirects that add a slash, but why not cache all permanent ones?
2020-07-22 23:39:14 makeworld Does anyone have an opinion? I don't see this breaking anything
2020-07-22 23:48:35 kevinsan makeworld, would the cache expire? could caching be disabled? if /~kevin belongs to KevinA who moves on leaving a permanent redirect, would me, KevinS, the new inhabitant of /~kevin be forever ignored in favour of this redirect?
2020-07-22 23:48:59 makeworld It's just for the browser session, so no
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2020-07-23 05:00:00 login makeworld: ctrl-shift-r
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2020-07-23 07:49:25 CommunistWolf login: i'd be fine with it, mrs CommunistWolf less so
2020-07-23 07:59:12 login what if the commune was only of people not sexually attracted to each other?
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2020-07-23 09:13:49 omni_ xq: kristall, for http to https redirects I get a Y/N dialogue with just a question mark (at least on www.redox-os.org)
2020-07-23 09:14:48 @xq interesting that it works on redox :D
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2020-07-23 11:23:54 CommunistWolf login: same
2020-07-23 11:24:00 CommunistWolf not really gemini-related though
2020-07-23 11:34:36 login no
2020-07-23 12:08:16 CommunistWolf anyone aware of any efforts to make hugo output .gmi files in addition to html ?
2020-07-23 12:47:03 siina None beyond my little experiments.
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2020-07-23 12:58:33 kensanata I feel torn... Do I want to improve Emacs to handle color sequences other than the basic eight foreground and background colours?
2020-07-23 13:22:16 kensanata Ohhhh, somebody from SDF already did this! https://github.com/atomontage/xterm-color
2020-07-23 14:11:43 login and yet it has not been taken into emacs main
2020-07-23 14:51:44 kensanata I talked to the author and they think the situation will get resolved, eventually.
2020-07-23 15:53:44 kensanata I still think it's awesome and weird that we can browser the elpher git repo via gopher: hilarious
2020-07-23 15:54:02 kensanata gopher://thelambdalab.xyz/1/scripts/browse-git.scm%7Celpher.git
2020-07-23 15:54:13 kensanata Makes me chuckle every time.
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2020-07-23 18:47:32 dctrud howdy gemini-folk
2020-07-23 18:51:23 Sario Hello
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2020-07-23 19:31:05 caranatar hi dctrud
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2020-07-23 20:20:46 natpen Hi fellow Geminauts! GUS backlinks just got a small enhancement - they now distinguish between "cross-capsule" links to pages and "internal" links to pages. As usual, if you notice any cases where it misbehaves, I would love your feedback!
2020-07-23 20:21:24 Sario natpen: Cool!
2020-07-23 20:27:23 dctrud awesome - that's nice to find replies
2020-07-23 20:30:18 Sario Also, I like the duck if there's no backlinks
2020-07-23 20:32:06 natpen Sario: haha, glad you like the duck ^.^ that's actually the first non-purely-informational thing I've added to GUS, and it made me happier than I thought it would :P
2020-07-23 20:35:07 natpen dctrud: that was my hope! This was also the last piece of the puzzle I needed implemented before completing the next major feature, which I think will be even better for finding replies
2020-07-23 20:35:12 Sario Gemini seems like a good place for random ducks, and other such things
2020-07-23 20:40:23 dctrud I feel bad for missing some of the replies to my computer naming post. Several people seemed to answer that one.
2020-07-23 20:40:42 natpen It was a Geminispace hit!
2020-07-23 20:40:46 dctrud including my parents (but by telephone)
2020-07-23 20:41:07 dctrud They are diligently using the vulpes.one proxy to keep tabs on me heh
2020-07-23 20:54:47 login is that your proxy?
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2020-07-23 20:55:53 dctrud nope I haven't made anything so useful
2020-07-23 20:57:23 hannu IMHO it's good to send email to the author if you reply
2020-07-23 20:57:52 hannu you get nice discussions with some people that way as a bonus <3
2020-07-23 20:59:03 dctrud I did say hello to a couple of people I replied to on mastodon. Maybe I should make my email more obvious for anyone who replies to me
2020-07-23 21:03:09 Sario natpen: I think I found a bug. The listing for my page (gemini.ctrl-c.club/~sario528) show a backlink to gemini.ctrl-c.club as cross-capsule instead of internal
2020-07-23 21:37:05 natpen Sario: I was actually conflicted about that, but it was intentional. For a given pubnix, I thought it kinda made sense to consider gemini://foo.bar and gemini://foo.bar/~a and gemini://foo.bar/~b as all different capsules, since they're all _likely_ administered and authored by different humans.
2020-07-23 21:37:52 Sario528 That makes sense
2020-07-23 22:27:42 kensanata natpen: At this rate you'll soon be adding a FAQ.
2020-07-23 22:28:14 kensanata hannu, dctrud: Yeah. Strangely enough I haven't written as much email as now that I've gotten into Gemini.
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2020-07-23 23:52:54 omni julienxx_: hi, how are the lobste.rs and tilde.news gemini mirrors produced?
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2020-07-24 00:34:03 omni gemini://typed-hole.org/lobsters/zdi2ac.txt
2020-07-24 01:02:05 makeworld https://portal.mozz.us/gemini/makeworld.gq/gus-graph/graph.png?raw=1
2020-07-24 01:02:16 makeworld A whole bunch of pages are gone o.O
2020-07-24 01:02:34 makeworld Maybe Alex's wikis are/were down
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2020-07-24 07:44:32 kensanata I added an empty line to a file using just ed. So proud.
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2020-07-24 09:49:42 @julienxx omni: it a small tool I created see https://github.com/julienXX/gophsters. There is a branch for every flavor. Basically it ran with a cron job, fetches the content via the JSON API and generates gopher/gemini pages.
2020-07-24 09:58:18 login so like polling?
2020-07-24 10:02:36 @julienxx exactly
2020-07-24 10:17:51 @tomasino Nice!
2020-07-24 11:07:45 omni julienxx: kewl, thanks!
2020-07-24 11:18:23 natpen makeworld: yes, Gemini page count on your graph is significantly down because of some kensanata domain and port shuffling. I built an interim GUS index excluding those capsules, but will probably start crawling the reincarnated versions today :)
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2020-07-24 11:23:32 natpen And it still cracks me up that kensanata's content represents 66% of Geminispace by page count! ^.^
2020-07-24 11:43:20 djph she's bored?
2020-07-24 11:43:36 djph I have 3 whole pages :/
2020-07-24 11:44:21 djph I need more pages. Trouble is, I'm boring and don't know what to write about :(
2020-07-24 11:44:58 login write about boredom
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2020-07-24 11:45:46 djph hmm
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2020-07-24 11:47:00 kensanata natpen: Hahaha
2020-07-24 11:47:33 kensanata djph: The trick is being old, and dressing up old content as new content.
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2020-07-24 11:52:02 login but there is original thought too
2020-07-24 11:52:11 djph kensanata: ha
2020-07-24 11:53:52 kensanata Sometimes I feel like I want to write more essays.
2020-07-24 12:02:25 kensanata Stuff I'd read in one of these magazine add-ons to newspapers. gemini://vault.transjovian.org/text/en/essay
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2020-07-24 14:15:05 Hajmola hi
2020-07-24 14:17:01 anton anyone know how I can enable user dirs on jetforce?
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2020-07-24 14:25:03 @julienxx anton: with symlinks maybe?
2020-07-24 14:30:27 @tomasino i created my own and did symlinks
2020-07-24 14:30:31 @tomasino that's the biggest drawback of jetforce
2020-07-24 14:30:54 @tomasino it think it's why tiwesdaeg switched pink
2020-07-24 14:39:28 xj9 we use symlinks on sunshine gardens as well
2020-07-24 14:39:40 xj9 and jetforce
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2020-07-24 15:40:49 ~tiwesdaeg that and cgi anywhere
2020-07-24 15:41:04 ~tiwesdaeg the vhosts are neat too
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2020-07-24 17:41:02 anton gemini://amcclure.org/
2020-07-24 17:41:04 anton c:
2020-07-24 17:51:34 kensanata Assuming you added colours to your Gemini files... Would you go 24bit colours? I'm tempted. But I also know that most people might have hand-picked the eight or sixteen basic colours because these can often be set by a theme.
2020-07-24 17:51:39 kensanata So what is it going to be?
2020-07-24 17:53:09 lukee I know these colours are nice for terminal clients, but it does presume a certain flavour of client will access your content
2020-07-24 17:53:22 kensanata Yeah.
2020-07-24 17:53:50 kensanata What's the alternative, stay black and white and ignore all the terminal features we get?
2020-07-24 17:54:00 lukee I suppose its harmless as long as your're not encoding any semantics into the colours
2020-07-24 17:54:31 kensanata Sure.
2020-07-24 17:54:40 lukee or specifically that is not the only channel - which is a general point for UI design
2020-07-24 17:54:53 kensanata Right now I have the additional pain of realizing that some clients will bork the display, making it worse.
2020-07-24 17:55:44 lukee we could instead embed fragments of CSS in the content - a more widely supported styling markup
2020-07-24 17:56:42 lukee I'm not serious about that I dont think, just making a point :)
2020-07-24 17:57:35 kensanata I have some screenshots in this blog post: https://alexschroeder.ch/wiki/2020-07-23_Eight_Colours
2020-07-24 17:57:52 kensanata The two last ones are troubling me.
2020-07-24 17:58:07 lukee I seem to recall someone on the list saying it is risky for terminal clients to interpret ansi sequences directly?
2020-07-24 17:58:41 kensanata Well, in theory you can filter them. I don't know what AV-98 does. I think the two Emacs packages I looked at discard all the escape sequences they can't handle.
2020-07-24 17:58:45 lukee so do client writers have to "normalise" them somehow?
2020-07-24 17:59:33 kensanata In the AV-98 case the problem is that it adds line breaks to break long lines, but it doesn't discount the bytes from the escape sequences, so it gets that wrong.
2020-07-24 18:00:17 lukee I bet it does break various text layout algorithms if you dont factor it in
2020-07-24 18:00:24 kensanata In the Elpher with the default ansi-color library which doesn't understand 24bit colour control codes, only a few of the control codes are interpreted, the rest are discarded, resulting in it being ugly.
2020-07-24 18:00:31 kensanata Yeah, for sure.
2020-07-24 18:01:37 lukee Personally I think it shifts back towards the web type of design philosophy
2020-07-24 18:02:10 lukee namely that the content author tries to control the user experience for the client, rather than simply provide the content
2020-07-24 18:02:44 kensanata You could argue that.
2020-07-24 18:04:20 kensanata Then again, one could argue that some sites use *foo* to mean emphasis and some clients render that. So a shared understanding was available through the culture we are embedded in.
2020-07-24 18:04:21 lukee Besides there are other ways to avoid just a plain black and white experience
2020-07-24 18:04:41 lukee yes but that is a common convention across platforms in email.
2020-07-24 18:05:02 lukee Ansi sequences are commandline applications control characters
2020-07-24 18:05:26 kensanata Thus, "the command line" or "the terminal" is rarely colour-less these days. Some of us use colours for grep, for ls, for editors, man pages, and so on. It's hard to understand why a gemini clients should be different.
2020-07-24 18:05:45 djph lukee: I don't have a plain black and white experience. Amber on black!
2020-07-24 18:06:13 lukee I have no problem with terminal clients using colour, just when authors embed them in content expecting a certain interpretation
2020-07-24 18:06:29 lukee your terminal client be can be pink on blue for all I care
2020-07-24 18:06:34 kensanata Yeah, I guess I don't get that distinction.
2020-07-24 18:07:10 djph kensanata: distinction of what?
2020-07-24 18:07:25 lukee its the difference between the client UI (which may have colours for semantics etc) and content from the server
2020-07-24 18:07:50 kensanata Colours are part of the elements we have to use for the user interface. I think lukee is trying to argue (correct me if I'm wrong) that colours as used by the client are different from colours as used in a document.
2020-07-24 18:07:59 lukee exactly
2020-07-24 18:08:23 kensanata Such as, htop using colours to provide a UI is cool, but the pids and process names don't determine the colours.
2020-07-24 18:08:28 lukee after all the web makes that conflation
2020-07-24 18:08:39 kensanata Sure. But that's not what I dislike about the web.
2020-07-24 18:09:00 djph I believe the argument is "don't write your webpage to be purple on blue ... but don't stop the other end from doing that if they want
2020-07-24 18:10:03 lukee for me its the fact that it is not standardised and a de facto behaviour for one particular platform. If we want to have styling as part of gemini it should be specified
2020-07-24 18:10:19 kensanata I guess what I'm saying is that I was looking at colours in text adventures, in nethack, I had colours determined by the door programms running on bulleting boards I visited using a 2400baud modem...
2020-07-24 18:10:47 kensanata To me, insisting that the data and the documents shouldn not come colour coded is a kind of fake retro throwback.
2020-07-24 18:11:26 kensanata To me, there is the common understanding that things inside terminals will use the features of terminals.
2020-07-24 18:11:27 lukee yes but the implementation is ansi-specific - so it assumes a certain type of client
2020-07-24 18:11:48 lukee gemini clients arent just terminal clients though
2020-07-24 18:12:09 lukee for example there are graphical clients
2020-07-24 18:12:15 lukee and there is a text client for the blind
2020-07-24 18:12:21 kensanata But that's the kind of thing that clients can add. I mean, Emacs doesn't handle ansi escape sequences just like that. I wrote a library to do it, and somebody else wrote an even better library to do it.
2020-07-24 18:12:24 lukee I hope there will be others too
2020-07-24 18:12:33 kensanata Of course.
2020-07-24 18:13:08 djph kensanata: I think you guys are saying the same thing.
2020-07-24 18:13:13 kensanata Just because colours can be used to convey information inaccessible to blind people doesn't mean we must avoid the use of colours, though.
2020-07-24 18:13:18 lukee so why not embed html fragments in the content?
2020-07-24 18:13:29 djph (1) color is good, but (2) don't hardcode it in the document per-se
2020-07-24 18:13:49 kensanata djph: We are not saying the same thing because I disagree with point #2 :)
2020-07-24 18:14:17 djph kensanata: so you're saying you want me to be able to tell your client that headings are red?
2020-07-24 18:14:56 kensanata lukee: Because it's not easy to know where to step when it comes to HTML. if it were only b and i and u and tt I'd get it. But those are deprecated because of em and strong. And then there's CSS. And what about strike, ins, del, and on and on. HTML is a can of worms.
2020-07-24 18:15:23 lukee the point is the expectation of content intepretation
2020-07-24 18:15:44 kensanata djph: Well, in my particular case I want to colour code a bunch of numbers, specifically like here: gemini://transjovian.org/do/changes
2020-07-24 18:15:45 lukee my point would stand for other simpler markups we could invent
2020-07-24 18:16:14 djph kensanata: don't get me wrong, color is a good thing (if its desired), but making it an integral part of the document, rather than an integral part of the client, seems a bit limiting.
2020-07-24 18:16:32 djph reminds me of the days of "Works best in IE" banners
2020-07-24 18:16:38 kensanata djph: But we're serving documents. Of course the client can't know this.
2020-07-24 18:16:45 kensanata djph: Just look at astrobotany...
2020-07-24 18:17:17 kensanata Are you saying astrobotany should be black and white?
2020-07-24 18:17:27 lukee it is pretty in some clients, but ugly in others that have no concept of ansi sequences or other embedded codes
2020-07-24 18:17:30 djph kensanata: UTC by [box][box][box][box]
2020-07-24 18:17:57 lukee because its not standard.
2020-07-24 18:18:39 lukee BTW I would have no beef with this if the content is served with a different mime like text/x-ansi
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2020-07-24 18:19:10 lukee or even text/gemini+x-ansi to convey the semantics
2020-07-24 18:19:26 djph kensanata: No. I am saying that color sequences should be up to the client in _general_ terms.
2020-07-24 18:19:44 djph kensanata: I am not saying there should be no color whatsoever.
2020-07-24 18:20:02 lukee what about fonts?
2020-07-24 18:20:11 djph Fonts?
2020-07-24 18:20:40 lukee can these be specified in Ansi codes (I have no idea as I dont use a terminal client)
2020-07-24 18:20:47 djph I don't know
2020-07-24 18:21:00 kensanata djph: 𝔜𝔢𝔰
2020-07-24 18:21:14 kensanata Unicode has some weird characters...
2020-07-24 18:21:22 kensanata So it's not really a font thing...
2020-07-24 18:21:39 djph I think they're somewhat integral to the terminal itself (e.g. everything I see is my terminal's constant-width font. Sometimes made pretty by bold or so
2020-07-24 18:21:49 djph kensanata: [box][box][box]
2020-07-24 18:21:54 kensanata lukee: You can also switch to bold, italic (and in some terminals, gothic) variants.
2020-07-24 18:22:06 lukee no comic sans then?
2020-07-24 18:22:11 kensanata lukee: nope
2020-07-24 18:22:15 lukee shucks
2020-07-24 18:22:25 kensanata djph: Yeah, I'm guessing your client doesn't have the right font support.
2020-07-24 18:22:41 xj9 your client can style things however it wants
2020-07-24 18:23:10 kensanata The first one is MATHEMATICAL FRAKTUR CAPITAL Y or U+1D51C
2020-07-24 18:23:46 djph kensanata: on purpose. I _primarily_ work in C locale; more so I can make sure I don't break something
2020-07-24 18:23:54 kensanata heh
2020-07-24 18:23:56 lukee I think unicode is great in general - but I suppose these extended characters must be a nightmare for audio or braile readers
2020-07-24 18:24:08 djph kensanata: although I do have utf8 as default when not ssh'd into things.
2020-07-24 18:24:10 kensanata I assume as well.
2020-07-24 18:26:50 kensanata I just tried it using the rhapsode audio browser and it sed stuff like "letter 1 d 5 1 c"
2020-07-24 18:26:53 kensanata Ouch!
2020-07-24 18:27:13 lukee Do people want a styled gemini format? Maybe there is a latent desire for it?
2020-07-24 18:28:43 kensanata lukee: Not me. I'm happy as it is. I just happen to think that many people don't see the cans of worms surrounding us: control codes in Unicode (like those that switch writing direction), and – and in this case I'd love to see more of them: colours. :D
2020-07-24 18:29:35 lukee what is the unicode way of doing it? I know you can have femaleface+brownskin
2020-07-24 18:29:38 lukee for example
2020-07-24 18:30:07 kensanata Like, if you're not relying on the terminal to do most of the display, or some underlying web browser, or cairo or pango or whatever they are called, eventually you'll have to do line wrapping. Do you know how wide the Unicode characters are? Special cases like combining skin colours, flags, and all those tricky bits? That's where I have my doubts because this is tricky.
2020-07-24 18:30:14 lukee at least then it would be using an existing standard linked to gemini
2020-07-24 18:30:48 kensanata I once implemented the Unicode bidirectionality algorithm in Emacs Lisp because I wanted to understand how it worked. It wasn't easy.
2020-07-24 18:31:06 djph kensanata: I don't disagree with the colors thing. Personally though, I would rather see it be an feature of the client's display options, rather than hardcoded escape sequences
2020-07-24 18:31:49 companion_cube djph: what kind of thing would you break by working in a unicode locale?
2020-07-24 18:31:50 lukee gemini://gemini.conman.org/boston/2020/07/20.2
2020-07-24 18:31:59 djph If "inline" formatting needs applied, then we have to start getting into further markup (e.g. \red{sometexthere} to set "sometexthere" to whatever color my client wants to call red).
2020-07-24 18:32:00 kensanata https://www.unicode.org/reports/tr9/
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2020-07-24 18:33:20 kensanata djph: How will the client know that the four digit octal sequences I use on my list of changes to anonymise users is to be colour coded in order to get a better overview? I mean, I have to communicate this wish to the client in some form, or you're going to tell me this is not what Gemini was designed for.
2020-07-24 18:34:02 djph companion_cube: mostly very little. TBH, it's more a holdover from working with AIX and HPUX at a previous job, and borking things because transferring from "see it works fine on the linux box!"
2020-07-24 18:34:23 kensanata djph: My argument is that we depend on Unicode for so much, and certainly expectation is that we also depend on terminals to handle so much, why not rely on the colour codes?
2020-07-24 18:34:43 lukee but colour codes in ansi arent unicode!
2020-07-24 18:34:49 kensanata True.
2020-07-24 18:35:04 kensanata But both are the "environment" in which we live and work is what I'm claiming.
2020-07-24 18:35:14 lukee no thats a false claim
2020-07-24 18:35:22 kensanata You can disagree with that, sure.
2020-07-24 18:35:24 djph kensanata: My only thing about it is that the assumption that all clients will do thing in "X" manner will bring us to the 1990s era of "This site best experienced in Internet Explorer 4"
2020-07-24 18:35:25 companion_cube djph: ok, makes sense
2020-07-24 18:35:37 lukee no the claim is factually false for gemini
2020-07-24 18:36:06 companion_cube kensanata: graphical browsers don't have escape sequences, though
2020-07-24 18:36:15 companion_cube why would gemini mandate using a terminal?
2020-07-24 18:36:18 lukee nor audio/braile ones
2020-07-24 18:36:33 companion_cube (unicode, on the other hand, is pervasive, and unavoidable)
2020-07-24 18:37:24 djph kensanata: I would honestly rather not see that happen, and first define a cross-browser colorization scheme that all browsers can interpret (or ignore) on a whim
2020-07-24 18:37:39 djph s/on a whim/on the fly/
2020-07-24 18:38:26 companion_cube the idea is that clients are responsible for styling, anyway
2020-07-24 18:38:51 companion_cube I'd rather have a bit more semantic markup, if needed (like bootstrap classes), but no choice of colors or font at all from the server side
2020-07-24 18:39:05 djph take 'inxi' for example -- the colorization using escape sequences is pretty. forget to turn off colorization, and sharing it via termbin, you're inundated with all those escape sequences
2020-07-24 18:39:27 kensanata What is inxi?
2020-07-24 18:39:41 djph terminal-based system report type thing for linux machines
2020-07-24 18:39:49 kensanata ok
2020-07-24 18:40:13 companion_cube most such tools take a `-nc` flag or equivalent to disable colors
2020-07-24 18:41:07 kensanata I guess I come from the Emacs world were I simply want Emacs handle the escape sequences that are easy to handle (colours) so that I can use them for ls, grep, compiler warnings and all the other commands I run within Emacs.
2020-07-24 18:41:14 djph inxi is 'c0' but yes
2020-07-24 18:41:44 djph kensanata: which is fine... but it makes things difficult to handle if one party's browser doesn't display the sequences right
2020-07-24 18:41:56 djph or ignore them.
2020-07-24 18:42:08 djph e.g. https://termbin.com/cl28 vs https://termbin.com/yj3s
2020-07-24 18:42:08 madogrit I'm a low vision user. Local color and font control is the exact thing that attracted me to the Gemini project. The ansi coding approach assumes that the terminal is the only client (factually false) and further that the content creator controlling visual formatting is more important than my client's ability to control my presentation.
2020-07-24 18:42:42 djph identical output, one was "colorized" and the other suppressed.
2020-07-24 18:43:14 lukee madogrit: what client or settings do you use to browse gemini?
2020-07-24 18:43:16 madogrit A mine type extension or separate Gemini sub type seems like a good proposal to see if there's traction, but I'd want to always be able to experience content-only.
2020-07-24 18:43:29 madogrit Deedum :)
2020-07-24 18:44:07 madogrit I joined to build a similar client because I want font size control, presentation/flow that works on any platform.
2020-07-24 18:44:18 lukee I've seen some pages about it, but never seen a screenshot
2020-07-24 18:45:19 xj9 i think content only is sufficient. styles don't have a very high power to weight ratio
2020-07-24 18:47:25 madogrit Screenshots of deedum on Android: https://imgur.com/a/Nnpu60a
2020-07-24 18:49:12 lukee madogit: thanks - it looks nice. Will it come out for other platforms eventually?
2020-07-24 18:52:18 madogrit It's Flutter based, so the developer is working on whatever version bugs keep it from iOS (that's from their GitHub). Flutter is also beta testing supporting web applications (I know it seems backwards but for me being able to have a client-security focused client available anywhere really helps adoption)
2020-07-24 18:54:01 madogrit I know I should just fork Deedum but I'm also using this as a learning opportunity to force myself to get competent at Dart's asynchronous features.
2020-07-24 18:54:24 madogrit https://github.com/snoe/deedum
2020-07-24 19:10:56 ~tiwesdaeg I've been happy with deedum
2020-07-24 19:15:25 kensanata lukee, djph: Can I quote some of the things you said on a wiki page? If yes, should I just use your nicks or do you want me to use some other name? Feel free to /msg me directly if you prefer.
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2020-07-24 19:30:16 kensanata When authoring lists, do you generally prefer to leave an empty line between list items?
2020-07-24 19:56:25 kensanata gemini://transjovian.org/phoebe/page/The%20use%20of%20colours
2020-07-24 20:01:54 kevinsan lukee, that link above is crashing GemiNaut for me (becomes non responsive, have to 'end program')
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2020-07-24 20:04:27 kevinsan with openssl s_client, I get connection timed out, so maybe you need to add a timeout to the connection (or process, you launch an exe for fetch, right?)
2020-07-24 20:10:17 djph kensanata: nick is fine. quotes are CC-BY-NC :P
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2020-07-24 20:16:59 kensanata djph: I think I prefer doing without NC and decided to use my own words :P
2020-07-24 20:19:21 djph kensanata: heh :) will sell you the rights for fake internet points
2020-07-24 20:19:22 lukee hi kensanata: was just afk for a while. Yes I'm fine if you want to use some of the above discussion
2020-07-24 20:20:22 lukee you can just attribute it to my real name. My gemini home is here: gemini://gemini.marmaladefoo.com/
2020-07-24 20:21:44 lukee kevinsan: that link seems fine for me. But I am using a more recent build than the release
2020-07-24 20:22:24 lukee The next version has an updated gemini retrieval layer, as well as native image display, binary downloads, menu keyboard shortcuts
2020-07-24 20:23:57 lukee and it has a download timeout you can specify (max download size and max download time)
2020-07-24 20:30:56 lukee kensanata: I had a look at that page about use of colour. I personally don't think it captures all the different arguments we had. But its your page, so you can express your view of course :)
2020-07-24 20:34:46 kensanata lukee: Anything you'd like to add? I would like to be a collaborative effort, and I do want to write down what was said in as far as it can help future efforts.
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2020-07-24 20:48:43 lukee kensanata: I think the other points that are important for me are: 1) ansi is not unicode, but a platform specific set of escape codes, so it is an arbitrary extension of text/gemini. So there cannot be an expectation it will be interpreted by clients
2020-07-24 20:49:21 lukee just as there cannot be any expectation of interpreting embedded CSS or HTML
2020-07-24 20:53:16 lukee 2) There should not be an expectation of clients being terminal based. There are a good number of non-terminal clients already, such as graphical, mobile and audio clients, none of which will have a notion of ANSI code interpretation
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2020-07-24 20:56:46 lukee 3) interpreted content could be served using a content type that announces the content, such as text/x-ansi, or even text/gemini+x-ansi if you wanted to combine with other elements of text/gemini
2020-07-24 20:59:19 lukee 4) some users are attracted to gemini as there is no notion of server controlled styling. Embedded formatting codes move us back towards an author/server controlled user experience
2020-07-24 20:59:59 lukee should I stop now - maybe I should put that in a gemlog piece :)
2020-07-24 21:02:36 madogrit lukee thanks for summarizing, I had similar feedback (but the links on kensanata's page didn't seem to render right on deedum, heh) and I wanted to browse them further before objecting to the conclusions presented.
2020-07-24 21:16:15 omni lukee: I wouldn't mind if you put it in you gemlog
2020-07-24 21:18:39 omni I also feel that I should have a disclaimer at the top of my index.gmi
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2020-07-24 21:19:23 omni as I wan't to play around with ASCII art and unicode sillyness
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2020-07-24 21:22:27 lukee I've got a dodgy network connection here...
2020-07-24 21:23:02 lukee omni: maybe I will do that...
2020-07-24 21:25:23 omni there's always the #gemini IRC log to the resque gemini://makeworld.gq/irc
2020-07-24 21:26:10 omni *rescue, wth
2020-07-24 21:26:10 lukee yes - that's what I use to catch up when I've not got my IRC client running. Its a great service
2020-07-24 21:26:36 lukee I was thinking risque maybe :)
2020-07-24 21:27:01 lukee but in text, no one can tell who is naked
2020-07-24 21:27:22 omni :D
2020-07-24 21:30:33 madogrit New protocol extension idea...
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2020-07-24 21:35:53 lukee madogrit: what is your idea?
2020-07-24 21:37:18 madogrit Oh an extension to tell when you're naked - sorry it's funnier when your irc connection is stable :)
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2020-07-24 21:41:40 lukee_ 🤐
2020-07-24 21:41:59 login a mosh joke?
2020-07-24 21:43:15 lukee_ only if you want it to be
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2020-07-24 21:50:50 lukee I'm gonna call it a night - its late here, time to feed the cat
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2020-07-24 22:03:55 cat yes feed me
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2020-07-25 01:54:14 luna hi again
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2020-07-25 05:26:56 u0_a165 Hello
2020-07-25 05:27:00 u0_a165 I have a question
2020-07-25 05:27:24 u0_a165 Can you set up a gemini server on a server which doesn't have a domain?
2020-07-25 07:04:19 luna yes, you should be able to
2020-07-25 07:06:39 u0_a165 I see
2020-07-25 07:07:11 u0_a165 I was under the impression that it wasn't possible as all of the server on GUS use domains
2020-07-25 07:07:22 u0_a165 Or at least that it was complex
2020-07-25 07:21:57 u0_a165 Thank you
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2020-07-25 10:23:08 @tomasino gemini + tor makes that ultra easy to do
2020-07-25 10:23:13 @tomasino oh, they left
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2020-07-25 11:43:40 epoch using stunnel for the tls part of gemini now. :)
2020-07-25 11:43:54 epoch so now I should be able to do server-side SNI support
2020-07-25 11:45:20 epoch and I think I might be able to play with client-side certs too. haven't dug too deep into documentation yet.
2020-07-25 12:13:54 epoch :/ can't quite tell if stunnel supports doing SNI while in inetd mode
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2020-07-25 19:35:13 Sario Hey natpen
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2020-07-25 19:49:02 natpen Hihi :)
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2020-07-25 20:38:40 @tomasino heya
2020-07-25 20:41:53 dctrud hi tomasino
2020-07-25 20:42:10 @tomasino how goes it, my peoples
2020-07-25 20:44:56 dctrud trying to decide whether to gemini browse or stream for a bit
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2020-07-25 21:28:04 @tomasino stream!
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2020-07-26 07:26:23 epoch alright, so I have SNI working with my gemini server by using stunnel. :)
2020-07-26 07:27:01 epoch I still use the same cert for all hostnames atm, but I can at least get the host data to my gemini script. :)
2020-07-26 07:28:12 epoch gemini://epo.k.vu/ vs gemini://thebackupbox.net/
2020-07-26 07:29:14 epoch same IP, same port, neither actually care about the domain portion of the URL passed to them...
2020-07-26 07:34:33 epoch guess I could compare the SNI against the URL and.. what? warn? error?
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2020-07-26 10:25:00 Cadey o/ I've been working on a gemini client/server as a way to get better at Rust. My code is here: https://tulpa.dev/cadey/maj, it includes a curses client, a generic client/server library and the maj site code. I'm working on hosting more information about it in a better place in the future, but for right now you can visit gemini://maj.kahless.cetacean.club (it uses a private CA). I
2020-07-26 10:25:02 Cadey don't know how spec-compliant the server software is, but please feel free to find out!
2020-07-26 10:28:35 Cadey (i know the two relative links on the main page of the maj site are broken, still need to write the content and in some cases the code for them)
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2020-07-26 10:34:01 Cadey it also includes a text/gemini parser that _should_ be enough to translate all of the text/gemini spec into any other markup language you want
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2020-07-26 11:49:40 natpen Hi everyone :) happy Sunday. GUS has a new feature, and as usual I'm telling IRC first as a sort of early-access release! It's built on top of several recent additions to GUS (like cross-capsule backlinks), and allows you to see "Threads in Geminispace." It's not linked in the menu/header yet, but still available at gemini://gus.guru/threads
2020-07-26 11:52:00 epoch ooooh. neat.
2020-07-26 11:52:13 djph natpen: coffee's still kicking in - what's it define a 'thread' as?
2020-07-26 11:54:56 natpen If there's a link between two pages that is A) cross-capsule, B) from a page that "looks like" a post (as opposed to a homepage, or a page of helpful links, etc), and C) to a page that also looks like a post, then it's a thread!
2020-07-26 11:57:28 natpen or rather, "it's part of a thread"
2020-07-26 12:00:10 natpen it was actually a really fun directed (a)cyclic graph problem to try and create the thread structures from the crawl data. (a)cyclic because sometimes people link back and forth, which creates... extra difficulty in determining which post is the parent post :P
2020-07-26 12:06:49 djph natpen: ah, so if you wrote a thing about (whatever), and I came across it as part of my digging into (same topic), said "oh, check out natpen's work at $link"
2020-07-26 12:10:59 natpen yep! so if that were in both of our gemlogs, then GUS would construct a two-member thread of it with my hypothetical post as the parent
2020-07-26 12:50:05 djph neat
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2020-07-26 13:06:13 kensanata I finally went ahead and added that IP number recently discussed on the mailing list to the firewall disallow list.
2020-07-26 13:07:21 kensanata I realised that these lines also belonged to the same IP number: grep "SSL accept attempt failed" /home/alex/farm/gemini-wiki.log.1 | wc -l → 6965
2020-07-26 13:19:26 natpen I'm really curious what the point of all that crawling was. It was just, like, SO many weird and malformed requests
2020-07-26 13:21:40 kensanata Some borked a script and didn't realize it was still crawling?
2020-07-26 14:01:38 Sario Or some A-hole was trying to break servers
2020-07-26 14:29:34 @tomasino seems more like a script run amok than intentional
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2020-07-26 14:40:53 kensanata Ugh. Changing date formats in Evolution: for headers in columns, elsewhere, in the calendar, with time, without time... So many things to change! And nowhere can I specifcy ISO 8601 date format. Hah.
2020-07-26 14:49:00 Sario Sounds annoying
2020-07-26 14:50:27 Cadey is there a load-testing tool for gemini servers?
2020-07-26 14:52:19 Sario I think a server version of the client torture test was mentioned on the mailing list, but I don't remember what came of it.
2020-07-26 14:52:45 kensanata Sounds like that IP number was that load-testing tool for all of us.
2020-07-26 14:54:18 kensanata I mean, this is from my log: "total mem amount of 2.4 GB matches resource limit [total mem amount>100 MB] … trying to restart"
2020-07-26 14:57:08 easeout this threads feature in GUS is cool. it seems like you could use it to stay up to date like CAPCOM, but without needing a data layer of atom feeds
2020-07-26 15:04:15 easeout natpen: at the moment, what causes a page to look like a post?
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2020-07-26 15:11:36 easeout also re: the cross-capsule requirement, i imagine that prevents noise from links that aren't between different users? then, given tildes with user accounts starting at ~foo, would it work to draw the boundary between capsules at either a domain root or the first "~foo" path component?
2020-07-26 15:11:46 natpen easeout: just a bunch of matching rules I fine-tuned over many trial runs of building threads - for example if a URL path contains "/gemlog/" or "/glog/" it's probably a post
2020-07-26 15:12:07 easeout fudge factors ftw :)
2020-07-26 15:14:33 natpen easeout: yes, the cross-capsule log takes exactly that kind of tilde/pubnix URL structure into account. So "foo.bar/~honk" and "foo.bar/~quack" would be considered cross-capsule
2020-07-26 15:14:42 easeout way ahead o me
2020-07-26 15:14:49 easeout s/o/of
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2020-07-26 15:16:13 Sario I'm currently doing something similar to soldierpunk's pekkulog, a single document that I update with each post
2020-07-26 15:17:03 easeout great point, so do i. but today would that cause issues in GUS thread results? like if someone replied to my post A, and my post B replied to another, would that be treated as one thread when it's not, or would i be screened out for not having compatible per-post URLs
2020-07-26 15:18:11 natpen whoa. I need to think about that one LOL.
2020-07-26 15:18:58 Sario Also, I need a better way of updating it, as I'm currently just directly editing gemlog.gmi with nano
2020-07-26 15:19:04 easeout if i were you i'd screen us out and explain why in your FAQ. a URL per post seems necessary or else what exactly would people be linking to
2020-07-26 15:19:31 easeout me too, sario. unique URLs is my next project i think
2020-07-26 15:21:14 easeout and even when you do have your posts on unique pages, some folks will also aggregate to a combined recent posts page or something, but you want the individual ones only
2020-07-26 15:22:37 natpen it tries to account for that, and seems to be doing okay so far
2020-07-26 15:22:51 makeworld natpen: Awesome feature idea. Is it live yet?
2020-07-26 15:23:00 makeworld tomasino: Uberthreadz lives!! ^^
2020-07-26 15:23:05 makeworld Lol
2020-07-26 15:23:24 easeout ok sweet well so far i love it
2020-07-26 15:23:32 natpen makeworld: yep, just not linked in menu or announced formally. but you can still get to it at gemini://gus.guru/threads
2020-07-26 15:24:07 natpen I've been messing around with the visual presentation all morning, so it's not exactly... stable, yet :P
2020-07-26 15:24:37 makeworld Woah interesting
2020-07-26 15:24:52 makeworld I was hoping to see the old thread about replies on there
2020-07-26 15:25:14 makeworld Here's my post in that thread: gemini://makeworld.gq/gemlog/2020-06-02-replies.gmi
2020-07-26 15:25:24 makeworld I just think it would be pretty meta lol
2020-07-26 15:25:45 makeworld Anyway this looks very cool
2020-07-26 15:28:02 @tomasino uberthreadz!!!
2020-07-26 15:29:00 natpen LOL
2020-07-26 15:29:23 @tomasino gus++
2020-07-26 15:29:31 @tomasino hey natpen
2020-07-26 15:29:48 @tomasino did that crawler cache thing work out?
2020-07-26 15:30:29 natpen tomasino: yes! that's live. i just didn't really announce it because it's invisible to end users.
2020-07-26 15:31:22 natpen it's actually helping with threads too now though, because keeping track of crawl attempts allows me to calculate "first seen" dates for pages, which I'm using for the dates on threads.
2020-07-26 15:31:52 natpen or rather, for the dates on posts within threads.
2020-07-26 15:32:15 @tomasino badassery
2020-07-26 15:32:44 @tomasino gus excludes itself from its own results, right?
2020-07-26 15:34:03 @tomasino i can definitely see myself linking to threads on gus for a given post in my gemlog as a part of my standard footer. "See replies and commentary via Gus" or something
2020-07-26 15:34:15 makeworld Yeah definitely
2020-07-26 15:35:41 natpen tomasino: oh, yeah, GUS can show up in GUS search results (like if you search for known hosts, GUS will come up), but GUS shouldn't ever show up in a thread, because no GUS pages pass the litmus test for "looks like a post in Geminispace"
2020-07-26 15:36:21 @tomasino ahh, gotcha
2020-07-26 15:36:31 @tomasino was hoping not to waste your crawl time sending the link back atcha
2020-07-26 15:36:44 @tomasino but i'm sure you've got all sorts of optimization stuff in there for circular references and whatnot
2020-07-26 15:37:02 @tomasino oh i see what you're doing on threads
2020-07-26 15:37:13 @tomasino trying to build it up on a timeline!
2020-07-26 15:37:22 @tomasino i was expecting it to work like the "what links here" page
2020-07-26 15:37:43 @tomasino i provide the URL as a param and see the threads
2020-07-26 15:37:50 @tomasino but this is very cool
2020-07-26 15:38:57 @tomasino if nothing else it gives me a glance at what posts triggered a lot of interaction in gemspace. If there ever was some justification for sorting gus results that might be it
2020-07-26 15:39:07 @tomasino you do great work. :D
2020-07-26 15:40:35 natpen Aw thanks!!
2020-07-26 15:41:22 makeworld "i provide the URL as a param and see the threads"
2020-07-26 15:41:22 makeworld That would be great to have yeah
2020-07-26 15:42:15 @tomasino agreed, but i did zero work on this beyond talking about uberthreadz here, so i'm happy with whatever you make :D
2020-07-26 15:43:18 natpen Yes! I've been thinking about that sort of thing too, for a kind of v2. I was thinking of making it even more free-form search. Basically like a "thread search" similar to the main GUS search - type in some text, returned results are matching threads, where, similar to the main search, it uses a weighted scoring algorithm across url AND page content, only this time aggregated across all posts in the thread.
2020-07-26 15:44:18 natpen e.g., thread search for "5 questions" --> Christina's 5 questions. or "meaning" or "replies"
2020-07-26 15:45:20 @tomasino now you're cooking with gas
2020-07-26 15:45:24 natpen LOL
2020-07-26 15:45:29 @tomasino hehe
2020-07-26 15:45:51 natpen be back later on, time for Sunday run! Thank you everyone for all the great discussion and feedback ^.^
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2020-07-26 15:45:59 @tomasino ciao!
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2020-07-26 17:32:01 Cadey is there any love for jsonfeed in geminispace?
2020-07-26 17:32:13 Cadey i find it's a bit easier to deal with than atom/rss can be
2020-07-26 17:38:22 makeworld Booo
2020-07-26 17:38:27 makeworld Jk :)
2020-07-26 17:38:42 makeworld It might be easier, but I don't see the point really
2020-07-26 17:40:13 makeworld It looks pretty cool, but in most cases feeds are robot generated, and robot consumed
2020-07-26 17:40:27 makeworld Gemini does have some people writing feeds themselves, but even then it's not that complicated
2020-07-26 17:42:07 easeout i dunno, early adopters like us can't be a litmus test for what's not complicated
2020-07-26 17:43:44 easeout on the one hand, jsonfeed is an artifact of JavaScript, which is one of the things we're here to avoid. on the other hand, XML is also from the web world and is even worse to read and write
2020-07-26 17:44:30 easeout i'm all for a simpler format becoming the norm
2020-07-26 17:45:19 easeout not that supporting both would make GUS's job easier :D
2020-07-26 17:49:56 makeworld I don't think GUS uses feeds at all
2020-07-26 17:50:20 makeworld Also I think it's pretty easy to detach JSON and XML from the web, they stand alone very well
2020-07-26 17:50:45 makeworld My only thing is that I don't see a huge need for switch from Atom
2020-07-26 17:51:23 makeworld *for a
2020-07-26 17:51:34 Sario I still need to set up atom for my capsule
2020-07-26 17:51:36 easeout oh you're right, i was thinking of CAPCOM
2020-07-26 17:55:31 easeout i kind of felt the same when jsonfeed first appeared; it seemed unnecessary since RSS/atom were well established and google reader was long since dead
2020-07-26 17:56:27 easeout but i do like JSON as an easy to parse vehicle for structured data formats
2020-07-26 17:58:15 Cadey either way, i think i'm gonna work on my flight journal today
2020-07-26 17:59:20 Cadey kinda wish i had a gemini client for the kindle
2020-07-26 18:01:37 Cadey i may also need to set up some kind of multi-host reverse proxy lol
2020-07-26 18:01:47 makeworld Yeah the easy parsing is nice
2020-07-26 18:02:04 makeworld Cadey: You can just use portal.mozz.us can't you? That's what I use on my Kobo lol
2020-07-26 18:02:34 Cadey yeah, but a native one would be really nice, would mesh well with the high text ethos of gemini
2020-07-26 18:03:42 Sario Odd question, but are there any standalone atom clients?
2020-07-26 18:16:20 makeworld Ah yeah that'd be cool
2020-07-26 18:16:37 makeworld Sario: Probably not? Idk, I thought Atom only made sense in the interface of a feed reader
2020-07-26 18:16:39 makeworld Not sure what you mean
2020-07-26 18:17:22 Sario I forgot the words feed reader.
2020-07-26 18:18:12 Sario I'm wondering if there are any standalone feed readers that don't require being attached to a browser
2020-07-26 18:19:23 Cadey newsbeuter or however it's spelled?
2020-07-26 18:19:28 Cadey i know elfeed works if you use emacs
2020-07-26 18:19:54 makeworld Sario: Definitely, there are lots
2020-07-26 18:19:59 Sario of course there's an emacs one
2020-07-26 18:29:39 easeout there are tons of non-browser feed readers for any platform you like
2020-07-26 18:30:10 easeout for a search keyword, try RSS feed reader
2020-07-26 19:15:11 hannu I'd love a terminal feed reader capable of gemini and gopher (though I'm not sure if phlogs have atom feeds).
2020-07-26 19:16:22 @tomasino Many do
2020-07-26 19:16:54 hannu gemfeed doesn't embed post content in the atom feed. I wonder if it should, for the best feed reader experience. OTOH fetching and rendering post content is about infinitely times easier for gemini than html.
2020-07-26 19:17:11 @tomasino You can use curl to fetch gopher content and snownews can leverage external scripts to fetch
2020-07-26 19:17:41 @tomasino I think you can do something similar in newsboat
2020-07-26 19:18:28 hannu tomasino: oh, cool! Do you use snownews like that? Any gotchas?
2020-07-26 19:18:38 @tomasino cosmic voyage has RSS but not atom. It's on web, gopher, and Gemini with the proper protocol links
2020-07-26 19:18:54 @tomasino I like newsboat personally, bit snownews is ok
2020-07-26 19:19:02 @tomasino I used it on SDF for a while
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2020-07-26 19:26:16 makeworld hannu: Embedding the content is interesting
2020-07-26 19:26:38 makeworld What's the advantage, just that you don't need another request?
2020-07-26 19:26:42 makeworld Or if the site goes down I guess
2020-07-26 19:26:55 Cadey gemini://cetacean.club is live!
2020-07-26 19:27:00 djph yay
2020-07-26 19:27:15 makeworld Loading...
2020-07-26 19:27:15 djph wait, arent cetaceans "whales" ?
2020-07-26 19:27:26 hannu makeworld: for html it's that you get *just* the content, not 2MB of javascript and tons of ads. For gemini, I guess not much.
2020-07-26 19:27:43 makeworld Cadey: "certificate is valid for example.com, *.example.com" - you're almost there! Lol
2020-07-26 19:27:50 Cadey w.w
2020-07-26 19:28:13 hannu I guess for Gemini it would still be nice to just fetch all the feeds and have the content for offline reading.
2020-07-26 19:28:29 Sario Cadey: congrats
2020-07-26 19:28:30 makeworld Looks like you copied one of my commands directly ahaha
2020-07-26 19:28:56 Cadey makeworld: try again?
2020-07-26 19:29:12 makeworld I'm in 😎
2020-07-26 19:29:22 Cadey :D
2020-07-26 19:29:31 djph guess you changed something - browser just freaked out here
2020-07-26 19:29:43 Cadey yeah, i actually made the cert properly
2020-07-26 19:30:23 makeworld djph: What browser you using?
2020-07-26 19:30:34 djph ... *^#$# computer. You're supposed to open http:// in lynx
2020-07-26 19:30:37 djph makeworld: av98
2020-07-26 19:31:16 Sario Cadey: av98 shows it good
2020-07-26 19:31:26 makeworld Hmm I would've thought av98 would validate CNs, but I guess not
2020-07-26 19:31:59 djph it was okay for a page or two, then (apparently) the server updated something and started presenting a new cert
2020-07-26 19:33:09 makeworld Yeah
2020-07-26 19:33:12 Cadey yeah, i changed the CN to cetacean.club
2020-07-26 19:33:16 Cadey sorry
2020-07-26 19:33:36 djph no worries :)
2020-07-26 19:33:45 djph nice site ... better'n mine anyway :)
2020-07-26 19:33:51 Sario Don't forget to tell gus about your site
2020-07-26 19:34:36 Cadey i'm currently writing an email for the list and then I'll figure out gus
2020-07-26 19:35:07 djph oh, that reminds me; I gotta go join the list
2020-07-26 19:36:28 makeworld Already submitted it to GUS :)
2020-07-26 19:36:35 Sario nvm
2020-07-26 19:36:46 Sario I was typing in the link
2020-07-26 19:38:56 Cadey aaand sent
2020-07-26 19:39:18 Cadey the gemini iPad client is ending up to be my main client lol
2020-07-26 19:40:11 Sario I'm mainly using Deedum
2020-07-26 19:40:29 makeworld You should setup gemfeed and submit your journal to CAPCOM too, if you want
2020-07-26 19:41:03 Cadey i wish gemfeed wasn't in python, makes it hard to use from NixOS
2020-07-26 19:41:07 djph what's gemfeed (and, uh, I guess CAPCOM)?
2020-07-26 19:42:03 Sario gemfeed creats an atom feed of your gemlog
2020-07-26 19:42:32 Sario CAPCOM is an aggregator for atom feeds
2020-07-26 19:42:57 makeworld djph: gemini.circumlunar.space/capcom/
2020-07-26 19:43:05 makeworld It's like Gemini's de-facto homepage
2020-07-26 19:43:30 Sario makeworld: you keep pre-empting me >:P
2020-07-26 19:43:39 makeworld Haha sorry
2020-07-26 19:43:42 Sario np
2020-07-26 19:43:52 Sario you just type faster
2020-07-26 19:44:07 djph oh, "CAPCOM is an aggregator..."
2020-07-26 19:44:09 Cadey how do you submit to capcom?
2020-07-26 19:44:28 Sario email soldierpunk
2020-07-26 19:44:35 djph wait
2020-07-26 19:44:59 djph is is "sold*i*erpunk" or "solderpunk" ? are they the same person?
2020-07-26 19:45:01 Cadey gemini://cetacean.club/journal/atom.xml
2020-07-26 19:45:36 @tomasino solder, like electronics
2020-07-26 19:46:12 djph i keep seeing it spelled both ways :/
2020-07-26 19:46:26 hannu Cadey: interesting work on maj, I'll have to check it out again later. I'm serving with gemserv, also written in Rust, and have contributed a couple of small enhancements.
2020-07-26 19:46:42 hannu right now I depend on vhost and CGI support though
2020-07-26 19:46:44 Sario I keep mis-reading it so*i*lder
2020-07-26 19:47:03 Sario solderpunk@posteo.net
2020-07-26 19:47:06 djph Sario: ... that would probably explain it then :)
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2020-07-26 19:47:11 Cadey thanks! I've been optimizing maj for serving apps more than static files, I plan to make a vhost reverse proxy at some point
2020-07-26 19:47:12 Sario according to CAPCOM page
2020-07-26 19:51:50 Cadey hannu: what CGI features do you really need?
2020-07-26 19:55:08 hannu Cadey: that sounds really good. I wrote ansi.hrtk.in in jetforce/python because it was a nice app framework. I would have preferred Rust if there was something similar (which maj sounds like).
2020-07-26 19:55:36 Cadey hannu: here's the biggest example i have so far: https://tulpa.dev/cadey/maj/src/branch/master/site/src/main.rs
2020-07-26 19:55:55 Cadey it's not stable yet (i think i messed up the design somewhere), but it's being worked on :)
2020-07-26 19:56:01 hannu Cadey: I'm serving a demo instance of https://sr.ht/~dancek/twinwiki/ with CGI. I could just add support for a full server or app framework or whatever. I'm not attached to CGI.
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2020-07-26 20:06:18 @tomasino Hey Cadey
2020-07-26 20:06:20 @tomasino welcome
2020-07-26 20:06:37 @tomasino just saw your post to the mailing list
2020-07-26 20:07:08 Cadey o/
2020-07-26 20:14:15 Cadey i'm in the backlog for getting capcom indexing!
2020-07-26 20:15:03 Sario Yay!
2020-07-26 20:22:00 @tomasino huzzah
2020-07-26 20:31:06 @tomasino oh, hey... i'll be doing tilde trivia on tilderadio tonight on a few hours
2020-07-26 20:31:09 @tomasino 23:30-0100 UTC
2020-07-26 20:31:25 @tomasino if you're awake around then tune in at tilderadio.org and join the chat in the #tilderadio room
2020-07-26 20:31:29 @tomasino it's very fun!
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2020-07-26 21:51:04 omni oh, nice, I'll try to tune in then
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2020-07-26 23:49:26 djph yay, I didn't break irssi ... I think
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2020-07-27 03:26:58 epoch I think I have a gemini link shortener setup.
2020-07-27 03:33:52 epoch gemini://epo.k.vu/2cd1 <- shortened link
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2020-07-27 07:22:56 luna looking at the chat archives, i just realized that i thought solderpunk was soldierpunk
2020-07-27 07:23:24 luna mandela effect? :P
2020-07-27 07:30:52 epoch I can confirm, I've read it solderpunk before then.
2020-07-27 07:31:17 epoch unless it is selective mandela effect
2020-07-27 08:06:42 luna all this time lurking around on the mailing list and i *never* noticed haha
2020-07-27 08:36:49 epoch https://thebackupbox.net/cgi-bin/pageview.cgi?page=stunnel has a copy-pasta of my stunnel.conf if anyone else wants to use it to let them write simpler gemini servers.
2020-07-27 08:37:03 epoch (won't have to deal directly with TLS, just the plaintext stuff)
2020-07-27 08:37:39 epoch I still need to look into how client certs do to stunnel
2020-07-27 08:38:02 epoch think I read in the man page that some env vars get se
2020-07-27 08:38:03 epoch set*
2020-07-27 08:38:35 epoch "The following environmental variables are set on Unix platforms: REMOTE_HOST, REMOTE_PORT, SSL_CLIENT_DN, SSL_CLIENT_I_DN"
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2020-07-27 09:47:54 epoch got castor to crash again. looking into how.
2020-07-27 09:49:46 epoch julienxx: hilit for when you get here
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2020-07-27 10:14:27 @julienxx Hi there!
2020-07-27 10:14:41 @julienxx epoch: I'm here :)
2020-07-27 10:14:50 epoch o/
2020-07-27 10:15:26 epoch I'm editing server-side code and I'll have to set it up again to cause the crash... one sec.
2020-07-27 10:18:52 kensanata The random Gemini roulette sent me to gemini://gem.1.21jiggawatts.net/ and I enjoyed reading some of the pages.
2020-07-27 10:19:13 kensanata So thank you for gemini://typed-hole.org/roulette :)
2020-07-27 10:20:27 @julienxx :)
2020-07-27 10:21:23 kensanata julienxx: Where does it get the list of sites from, GUS?
2020-07-27 10:23:30 @julienxx yes I copied the know hosts some weeks ago, I should script that to be up to date some day
2020-07-27 10:31:43 kensanata Yeah. I was about to do that, then I thought wait a minute, there's Roulette in your bookmarks!
2020-07-27 10:31:55 kensanata I love the http://breadpunk.club/docs/manifesto/
2020-07-27 10:41:24 kensanata But on Gemini... not much going on! I followed the lickthebread link to lickthecheese on tilde, to data.bellz, to lick at data.bellz, to their blog, to their only page on their blog, reading all the promising statements about the awesome content to come... and there's this: gemini://data.bellz.org/~lick/blog/1.gmi
2020-07-27 10:42:48 djph kensanata: "cert expired since June" ?
2020-07-27 10:43:18 kensanata djph: which one? I didn't get any warnings...
2020-07-27 10:44:24 djph kensanata: for your data.bellz.org link
2020-07-27 10:44:30 Cadey kensanata: yeah it's pretty quiet now, the protocol's still really new though
2020-07-27 10:44:45 djph dunno how to tell av98 to shutup and just go
2020-07-27 10:44:57 epoch 2>/dev/null ?
2020-07-27 10:45:09 kensanata It probably refuses to load?
2020-07-27 10:45:12 djph ^
2020-07-27 10:50:57 natpen kensanata: did you mean breadpunk didn't have much going on on Gemini? I do see they have a capsule, with what look to be some active users: gemini://breadpunk.club/
2020-07-27 10:52:26 kensanata natpen: I've clicked through them all, starting at the end.
2020-07-27 10:52:52 kensanata But only the first three of them have something on Gemini. :)
2020-07-27 10:52:57 natpen oh, okay. you're one step ahead of me then! I'm just browsing them now :P
2020-07-27 10:53:11 kensanata If you start at the top, the experiene is smoother. :)
2020-07-27 10:53:25 natpen oh wow, I'll say...
2020-07-27 10:54:05 kensanata breadw's pages makes me want to bake some bread.
2020-07-27 10:54:40 kensanata I hadn't heard of Nomic in a VERY long time!
2020-07-27 10:56:16 natpen I have never heard of that. "The primary activity of Nomic is proposing changes in the rules" LOL
2020-07-27 10:58:12 Sario528 Good morning
2020-07-27 10:58:40 natpen Good morning Sario :)
2020-07-27 10:59:08 Sario528 How goes, natpen?
2020-07-27 11:00:37 natpen kensanata: this sounds hilarious. I want to play Nomic now :D
2020-07-27 11:01:13 kensanata natpen: I always felt that it was something like a proving grounds for lawyers.
2020-07-27 11:01:47 kensanata natpen: Then again, that one time I played "1000 white cards" it was hilarious, so perhaps there's a space for Calvinball-style games in my life.
2020-07-27 11:02:15 natpen Sario528: oh, it goes well. Today is a bit cooler, which is a welcome change!
2020-07-27 11:02:23 natpen How are you?
2020-07-27 11:03:12 kensanata Ah, there it is. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1000_Blank_White_Cards
2020-07-27 11:03:54 Sario528 Pretty good, for a monday
2020-07-27 11:05:08 natpen Oh wow, 1000BWC doesn't even have any initial rules!
2020-07-27 11:07:40 kensanata Yeah, but once you've played, you keep some cards for next time. It's a bit like sourdough bread I guess...
2020-07-27 11:11:19 natpen interesting :)
2020-07-27 11:24:53 epoch does anyone else in here have castor built using rust 1.43?
2020-07-27 11:33:53 Cadey good morning all
2020-07-27 11:34:25 epoch g'morning
2020-07-27 11:34:43 Cadey I've been copying over some DnD-style game worldbuilding notes for my campaign to my capsule
2020-07-27 11:35:52 natpen epoch: no, but I just pulled latest and built successfully on nightly 1.44 fwiw
2020-07-27 11:36:26 epoch I'm thinking there was a bugfix in rust
2020-07-27 11:36:30 epoch between 1.43 and 1.44
2020-07-27 11:36:39 natpen Morning Cadey - welcome to Geminispace!
2020-07-27 11:37:06 epoch because castor crashes with a panic on my computer when trying to go to: gemini://epo.k.vu/
2020-07-27 11:38:31 natpen oh, interesting. that does look like a bad resource - when I go there, I get a castor error message that says "Failed to read response (missing CRLF)"
2020-07-27 11:39:29 epoch yeah, that's the behavior I expect
2020-07-27 11:40:07 epoch but somehow castor crashes here instead of saying that.
2020-07-27 11:45:43 epoch error message is saying an unwrap on an Err is causing the panic message
2020-07-27 11:46:19 kensanata Cadey: Yay for worldbuilding notes! :D
2020-07-27 11:48:01 Cadey i've been building up to a fantasy novel in the universe of my DnD campaign, i may end up releasing the novel on gemini
2020-07-27 11:57:30 epoch g'night
2020-07-27 11:59:10 djph Cadey: nice. What version?
2020-07-27 11:59:35 Cadey it's not quite DnD, but calling it DnD makes people understand it easlier
2020-07-27 11:59:37 Cadey easier*
2020-07-27 12:00:33 djph pathfinder then?
2020-07-27 12:00:57 djph ... just so long as it's not 4e or 5e DnD :P
2020-07-27 12:03:37 Cadey https://s-jared.itch.io/6e
2020-07-27 12:06:28 djph neat
2020-07-27 12:11:30 kensanata Every time I work on the web interface for my Gemini Wiki it makes me want to cry. First, on mobile I need a viewport meta element or else it looks bad. That alone lets me know that things are not cool. But in addition to that, visiting the site using Firefox shows weird SSL errors in the logs.
2020-07-27 12:11:44 kensanata That is, https://transjovian.org:1965/
2020-07-27 12:12:21 kensanata And then they disappear, and I didn't do a thing.
2020-07-27 12:12:30 kensanata How is one supposed to learn anything from this?
2020-07-27 12:14:47 kensanata Time to prepare some sourdough, I say... /me wanders off into the kitchen
2020-07-27 12:16:28 kensanata Cadey: Hah, I love it when hundreds of pages of Dungeon World just disappear into playbooks.
2020-07-27 12:18:34 Cadey i have to say though, the hundreds of pages of dungeon world help with worldbuilding :D
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2020-07-27 12:20:04 kensanata Haha
2020-07-27 12:20:23 kensanata I did get some interesting ideas from the chapters on fronts.
2020-07-27 12:26:57 djph kensanata: found your problem. "https" :P
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2020-07-27 13:16:54 kensanata djph: Hm?
2020-07-27 13:17:49 djph kensanata: just yanking your chain as to the problem(s) you're having with "https://transjovian.org:1965"
2020-07-27 13:19:53 ⚡ kensanata yeets djph into low earth orbit
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2020-07-27 16:25:33 acdw g'morning everyone
2020-07-27 16:29:11 Cadey are we supposed to call gemini sites capsules?
2020-07-27 16:29:18 acdw kensanata: I was trawling the logs and I saw you mention breadpunk!
2020-07-27 16:29:23 acdw Cadey: that's what I do
2020-07-27 16:29:32 acdw I also like calling the whole thing the "constellation"
2020-07-27 16:29:35 acdw but that's me :P
2020-07-27 16:31:20 kensanata acdw: I sure did!
2020-07-27 16:31:23 Sario I like that
2020-07-27 16:31:46 Sario Constellation instead of web
2020-07-27 16:32:00 kensanata acdw: I mentioned it in connection with gemini://alexschroeder.ch/page/2020-07-22_Midnight_Pub
2020-07-27 16:32:56 kensanata acdw: basically saying that I like the device of framing narratives to hold together a community of people
2020-07-27 16:33:06 kensanata (people writing online, in this case)
2020-07-27 16:33:45 acdw oh yes! :) I meant to reply to that Midnight Pub post, but I forgot
2020-07-27 16:33:50 acdw I'll throw it in the list
2020-07-27 16:34:34 acdw I actually want to build breadpunk to be more gemini-focused, with a gemlog.blue style authoring thing and also a portal
2020-07-27 16:34:39 acdw a "stargate," if you will
2020-07-27 16:34:44 kensanata Heh, yeah, the way I write my posts is I usually write something up, and then chances are I'll come back to it after a while and add a little of this or that...
2020-07-27 16:34:55 acdw haha that's awesome
2020-07-27 16:35:20 acdw I know some other people do that, I kind of wish I did but usually after I write something I don't want to look at it agian
2020-07-27 16:35:40 kensanata I was wondering about adding a HTML form to Gemini Wiki – and Transjovian in particular, since my other wikis already have a web interface.
2020-07-27 16:36:34 kensanata I guess in my case I put a bit more effort into it because I feel like the blog is my brain extension and sometimes I do go back. I even write comments to my past self to try and keept things together, more or less.
2020-07-27 16:37:57 dctrud hi acdw, kensanata
2020-07-27 16:38:04 kensanata Like: I wrote gemini://alexschroeder.ch/page/2020-07-20_Does_a_Gemini_certificate_need_a_Common_Name_matching_the_domain%3F and then too much time passed and I felt additional stuff should be a comment, so I wrote gemini://alexschroeder.ch/page/Comments_on_2020-07-20_Does_a_Gemini_certificate_need_a_Common_Name_matching_the_domain%3F
2020-07-27 16:38:08 kensanata But it's just me talking to myself.
2020-07-27 16:38:15 kensanata Hi dctrud!
2020-07-27 16:39:14 acdw hey dctrud!
2020-07-27 16:39:25 Cadey i set up a favicon.txt on my capsule
2020-07-27 16:39:52 dctrud just having a quick gemini browse over lunch here, and wondering what to do next with my stuff
2020-07-27 16:40:07 acdw oh wow Cadey mozz.us already picked it up
2020-07-27 16:40:33 acdw kensanata: I think that'd be more easier with the titan: protocol, too, tbh
2020-07-27 16:40:45 acdw what stuff you got dctrud?
2020-07-27 16:41:27 dctrud I have a bunch of org-mode notes... shell one-liners etc. Things like that. Bit of a mess. Thinking about tidying a bit and getting onto my gemini capsule somewhere.
2020-07-27 16:41:59 acdw That sounds awesome! Just serve itas text/org lol
2020-07-27 16:42:12 acdw I'm sure Elpher could read those no problm :P
2020-07-27 16:42:21 kensanata I wonder. :)
2020-07-27 16:42:49 kensanata Sometimes I wonder whether there are more Elpher users than just me out there...
2020-07-27 16:42:50 acdw Oh also Cadey, I like your little stories, they're a lto of fun :)
2020-07-27 16:43:07 dctrud I use Elpher here... also Kristall
2020-07-27 16:43:17 acdw kensanata: I *jsut* installed Emacs *again* to try it ... I'll try elpher out
2020-07-27 16:43:21 kensanata Heh
2020-07-27 16:43:27 acdw (related: what's the *easiest* way to install elpher?)
2020-07-27 16:44:01 kensanata acdw: I guess if you know your way around Emacs: add MELPA to your package list and then use M-x list-packages, find and install it from there.
2020-07-27 16:44:28 acdw oh yea, just saw it on the website ! I guess I could just ... RTFM :P
2020-07-27 16:44:31 kensanata (setq package-archives '(("gnu" . "https://elpa.gnu.org/packages/") ("melpa" . "https://melpa.org/packages/"))) (package-initialize)
2020-07-27 16:44:38 kensanata That's what I use.
2020-07-27 16:44:41 Cadey acdw: thanks! I've been working on importing my older stories from various bits and places
2020-07-27 16:45:24 kensanata But for Elpher, I made some changes and suggested them to Tim, so if you want to live on the bleeding edge, I've got a branch in Tim's repo...
2020-07-27 16:45:31 Cadey i like how the text/gemini format makes me just focus on the actual content
2020-07-27 16:45:52 kensanata Elpher's repo can be browsed via Gopher (of course): gopher://thelambdalab.xyz/1/projects/elpher/
2020-07-27 16:46:01 dctrud I need to sort out going to .gmi from Emacs other than org -> md -> gmi
2020-07-27 16:46:16 Cadey gemini-mode
2020-07-27 16:46:39 kensanata Yeah, I use gemini-mode to author stuff... But if you need Org Mode, of course...
2020-07-27 16:47:21 dctrud I ported old blog stuff from org with pandoc then md2gemini but needs quite a bit of tidying
2020-07-27 16:47:25 Cadey also i'm pretty sure i have the first lojban content on the gemini constellation
2020-07-27 16:48:49 kensanata dctrud: Yeah, I opted to convert wikitext to gemtext on the fly... It works well enough, I guess.
2020-07-27 16:50:17 dctrud oh btw kensanata... I have a son who is obsessed with bees, and is enjoying your wasp photos too.
2020-07-27 16:50:27 acdw kensanata: Followed the directions from the website, I might try the ~new~ repo :)
2020-07-27 16:50:40 acdw I am currently browsing with Elpher! Just gopher rn tho
2020-07-27 16:51:05 acdw It should be pretty easy to make an org->gmi converter, right?
2020-07-27 16:51:53 dctrud acdw - same issues as for markdown, plus some I think. Can steal the link handling approaches from md2gemini etc
2020-07-27 16:51:59 acdw oh shoot, I *like* elpher
2020-07-27 16:52:10 acdw It's maybe what I wanted bollux to be (from using it for ... 30 seconds?)
2020-07-27 16:52:18 kensanata Haha.
2020-07-27 16:52:40 acdw ah, that makes sense dctrud. I always forget about inline markup stuff -- that's the kicker
2020-07-27 16:52:58 kensanata dctrud: Very cool! Do you have a bee hotel or something like that where the kid can get a closer look at bees?
2020-07-27 16:53:41 dctrud we don't have a bee hotel here... just a bunch of texas native plants in one border that attract the bees
2020-07-27 16:54:31 kensanata Nice!
2020-07-27 16:55:02 dctrud my father has gotten into photography, and my parents in the UK have an amazing garden, including bee hotel... so we get pictures from them
2020-07-27 16:55:32 acdw gemini-mode is obsolete?
2020-07-27 16:56:59 dctrud have a good one all - I need to get back to work. Building ppc64le binaries under qemu today, so need to grab a coffee or something to restore my patience too.
2020-07-27 16:57:10 acdw good luck! o/
2020-07-27 17:00:01 dctrud cheers - have fun with Elpher acdw
2020-07-27 17:00:11 acdw :D
2020-07-27 17:00:18 kensanata acdw: What do you say that gemini-mode is obsolete?
2020-07-27 17:00:19 ℹ acdw is now known as acdw-away
2020-07-27 17:00:25 kensanata too late...
2020-07-27 17:00:33 acdw-away It said it was on the melpa thing
2020-07-27 17:00:37 acdw-away okay no realy away
2020-07-27 17:00:39 acdw-away works tho
2020-07-27 17:01:45 kensanata I don't see anything on https://git.carcosa.net/jmcbray/gemini.el saying it's obsolete...
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2020-07-27 17:09:35 acdw kensanata: It just said in the package info on M-x package-list-packages
2020-07-27 17:09:52 acdw probably a mis-understanding
2020-07-27 17:11:55 kensanata acdw: Hm, perhaps it means that you installed an older version from MELPA and MELPA refreshed it's index and so you could use U to mark all packages for upgrade, and then x to do it (or something like that), and you'd get an even fresher Elpa.
2020-07-27 17:11:58 kensanata Elpher
2020-07-27 17:16:04 acdw Oh awesome! Thank you :) I was struggling earlier with closing a buffer in Emacs, so I am *green*
2020-07-27 17:16:12 acdw (Realized it's C-x 1 to get 1 buffer)
2020-07-27 17:16:39 acdw The *real* issue, coming from Vim, is I hit Esc *all* the time, and then I get errors like <Esc> M-x isn't a thing
2020-07-27 17:34:55 Cadey acdw: evil mode makes emacs muscle-memory compliant with vim
2020-07-27 17:36:37 acdw I've tried evil a few times, usually with frameworks like Doom or Spacemacs, but it actually ends up having a bigger problem: I expect the entirety of my Vim muscle memory, which is moderately plugin'd out -- so it's confusing again
2020-07-27 17:37:06 acdw Also there's been kind of an idea of "ideological purity" that has been holding me back (I realize now it's goofy) ... wanting to know Emacs as Emacs
2020-07-27 17:37:39 acdw I'm going to see if I can find some basic evil-mode tutorials and set it up by itself, maybe that'll work
2020-07-27 17:37:43 acdw :) Thanks!
2020-07-27 17:41:06 acdw and of course, now I take *one* look at it and I see that the emacs-wiki is brimming with info on evil-mode
2020-07-27 17:41:13 ⚡ acdw feels pretty silly about htat
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2020-07-27 19:01:11 ℹ acdw-away is now known as acdw
2020-07-27 19:01:18 acdw aaaaand i'm back
2020-07-27 19:08:21 Sario528 Welcome back
2020-07-27 19:15:23 acdw :D
2020-07-27 19:15:31 acdw how's it going Sario528?
2020-07-27 19:16:03 Sario528 Not too bad
2020-07-27 19:16:43 acdw nice, nice!
2020-07-27 19:17:21 Sario acdw: how are you?
2020-07-27 19:17:34 acdw I'm well. Just had a cup of coffee so I'm buzzing
2020-07-27 19:17:44 acdw also ate lunch, then got back to the office where I'm ... on here. lol
2020-07-27 19:17:50 acdw looking @ emacs
2020-07-27 19:17:59 acdw thinking about moving stuff around with my gemini situation
2020-07-27 19:18:37 Sario I've been thinking about taking the plunge and learning emacs
2020-07-27 19:20:37 acdw this is time number 3 for me, I think
2020-07-27 19:20:40 acdw maybe 4
2020-07-27 19:20:48 acdw I'm a Vim baby
2020-07-27 19:21:37 Sario In the war between vim and emacs, I'm undecided
2020-07-27 19:24:50 Sario acdw: do you know of a good starter guide for emacs?
2020-07-27 19:29:59 acdw haha not really no
2020-07-27 19:30:04 acdw that might be part of my problem
2020-07-27 19:30:16 acdw I've tried different frameworks, like spacemacs and doom
2020-07-27 19:30:24 acdw I liked doom better but I still had a hard time configuring it
2020-07-27 19:30:31 acdw Emacs's included help is actually okay
2020-07-27 19:30:36 acdw now that i'm thinking of it
2020-07-27 19:30:59 Sario That's good to know
2020-07-27 19:32:12 acdw :) also this looks ~okay~ https://planet.emacslife.com/ though it's a blog planet
2020-07-27 19:32:23 acdw speaking of that's some terminology that needs to get into geminispace
2020-07-27 19:34:11 Sario blog planet?
2020-07-27 19:36:20 acdw like an aggregator -- there's a lot of "planets" around the web. basically it pulls posts from a number of blogs around a central topic, i.e. Emacs, and puts them in one place.
2020-07-27 19:37:24 Sario That works for the gemini theme very nicely
2020-07-27 19:39:04 acdw yes, they're great. the first planet I saw was for Crunchbang Linux, I think
2020-07-27 19:39:21 acdw Honestly a planet gemini could be really great -- basically CAPCOM but with the articles inline
2020-07-27 19:39:32 acdw so actually, maybe not then, lol, now that I think about it
2020-07-27 19:43:52 Sario Maybe not full articles, but snippets and/or summaries with links to the article
2020-07-27 19:49:14 acdw that'd work for sure!
2020-07-27 19:49:26 acdw basically CAPCOM with a little extra -- maybe a blockquote underneath each link
2020-07-27 20:03:15 Sario gemini://gemini.ctrl-c.club/~sario528/projects/gemideas.gmi
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2020-07-27 20:05:21 kensanata Does anybody know 34.194.171.239 from their logs?
2020-07-27 20:05:50 djph checking
2020-07-27 20:07:48 kensanata A quick skim seems to show burtst of 20 connections per second.
2020-07-27 20:08:03 djph It's AWS, but beyond that, I've got nothing
2020-07-27 20:08:10 CommunistWolf I really shouldn't have checked the logs for gemini://ur.gs
2020-07-27 20:08:16 CommunistWolf basically empty :D
2020-07-27 20:08:28 CommunistWolf (just like the page, but hey)
2020-07-27 20:08:46 kensanata djph: Yeah, I wondered whether it was a search engine like GUS.
2020-07-27 20:09:14 djph I've only got ~20 hits
2020-07-27 20:09:25 kensanata I've got about 1700
2020-07-27 20:09:30 kensanata Over all the log files.
2020-07-27 20:10:06 kensanata But for the 27th just 255 hits.
2020-07-27 20:10:46 kensanata My problem was that I was trying to restart in the middle of a burst and had twenty borked SSL transactions and processes not dying and the port not freeing up...
2020-07-27 20:13:44 djph shame on amazon
2020-07-27 20:13:58 djph guess we know who the more popular person is though :)
2020-07-27 20:14:36 djph https://search.arin.net/rdap/?query=34.194.171.239
2020-07-27 20:17:11 kensanata djph: Hm, what does that tell you? Is there more info than in a simple whois from the command line?
2020-07-27 20:18:39 kensanata Anyway, ipset to the rescue...
2020-07-27 20:19:27 djph kensanata: mostly pulls up the registrant info more than anything. then again, I tend to be "not good" with the whois syntax
2020-07-27 20:20:18 kensanata Heh. I just go "whois blargh" and then look at the info.
2020-07-27 20:22:01 kensanata In any case, I think, I hope, maybe my Gemini Atom feed is fixed, now with full content. Not that anybody is using it. CAPCOM is ignoring it, as far as I know. Is anybody else here using feeds?
2020-07-27 20:22:05 djph heh, maybe whois got better/
2020-07-27 20:22:12 djph thre are feeds?
2020-07-27 20:22:19 kensanata Sure.
2020-07-27 20:22:56 kensanata eg gemini://transjovian.org:1965/do/atom
2020-07-27 20:23:36 Cadey CommunistWolf: ur.gs isn't resolving for me
2020-07-27 20:23:55 kensanata or the one that was borked: gemini://alexschroeder.ch/do/atom
2020-07-27 20:25:40 djph kensanata: it seems borked (least in av98 -- though probably me). it opens an xml file in my browser :/
2020-07-27 20:29:41 acdw eeey Sario just saw that link! NICE
2020-07-27 20:30:40 CommunistWolf it's v6-only I think
2020-07-27 20:41:04 kensanata djph: I'd say that's probably correct: your client is handling it by passing it off to a program that can display it, which happens to be your browser.
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2020-07-27 21:27:14 Cadey I think I just got majc to handle history, relative links and link clicking in general
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2020-07-27 22:16:29 Cadey so i just found out that gemini://gus.guru was somehow breaking maj horriffically. I managed to fix it though
2020-07-27 22:25:23 acdw nice! Is maj your server? Or a client?
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2020-07-27 23:11:28 Cadey yes
2020-07-27 23:11:49 Cadey maj is a generic framework, majc is the client, majd is the work-in-progress superserver
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2020-07-28 01:19:37 omni ncgopher crash on this gemini://park-city.club/ftp/invis/branding/viz_ascii.txt
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2020-07-28 10:20:58 epoch what would be a good environment variable name for storing the hostname sent in SNI?
2020-07-28 10:21:25 epoch my HTTP CGIs will also get this variable set, so they could use it too.
2020-07-28 10:21:35 epoch already existing CGI vars don't cover this.
2020-07-28 10:21:53 epoch maybe TLS_SERVERNAME?
2020-07-28 10:22:12 epoch or, TLS_SNI?
2020-07-28 10:22:27 @xq REQUESTED_TLS_HOST
2020-07-28 10:22:42 kevinsan isn't SERVER_NAME giving you this already?
2020-07-28 10:23:01 epoch SERVER_NAME is more like what the server thinks its own name is
2020-07-28 10:24:00 epoch REQUEST_ vars seem like something that'd be derived from stuff in the request, so maybe
2020-07-28 10:26:28 epoch I also shouldn't use SERVER_NAME because SERVER_NAME should be set even if SNI isn't used.
2020-07-28 10:27:13 epoch a handful of these CGI vars should have been HTTP_ vars
2020-07-28 10:27:17 epoch REQUEST_METHOD
2020-07-28 10:27:18 kevinsan I suppose SNI_SERVER_NAME is the most approriate
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2020-07-28 10:28:06 kevinsan Yes, gemserv gives me GEMINI_URL, which can be used to determine the SNI host
2020-07-28 10:28:13 epoch oh, SERVER_NAME is supposed to change to Host:
2020-07-28 10:28:52 epoch does GEMINI_URL actually contain the SNI host, or just the requested URL?
2020-07-28 10:29:19 epoch I'm about to add checks in that the SNI host matches the hostname in the requested URL
2020-07-28 10:29:26 epoch then say "I don't proxy" if they don't
2020-07-28 10:29:46 epoch right now I've just been ignoring the hostname in the request
2020-07-28 10:30:32 kevinsan my understanding is that if I request gemini://xyz.example.com/, and gemini://abc.example.com/, so I see the SNI host as a subset of the requested URL.
2020-07-28 10:30:33 epoch https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3875 btw
2020-07-28 10:31:16 kevinsan my gramatikal woz ungood
2020-07-28 10:31:30 epoch the SNI host is part of the TLS packets, the gemini data rides along inside it and includes a separate domain
2020-07-28 10:31:47 epoch usually they should be the same
2020-07-28 10:31:54 epoch but they /can/ differ.
2020-07-28 10:32:12 epoch like um
2020-07-28 10:32:43 kevinsan correct me if I'm wrong, but you'd have to go a long way to have them differ (I can see how, using echo and s_client)
2020-07-28 10:33:00 epoch printf "gemini://first.host\r\n" | openssl s_client -servername sni.host.differs -ign_eof -connect sni.host.differs:1965
2020-07-28 10:33:46 epoch yeah, I dunno how clients would have a UI for letting users do different values
2020-07-28 10:34:22 kevinsan but your question still stands - what value should be exposed via CGI?
2020-07-28 10:34:28 epoch both
2020-07-28 10:34:30 epoch :P
2020-07-28 10:34:35 epoch just need to pick the name
2020-07-28 10:35:16 epoch right now I've modding stunnel5 so that I can get the SNI name from there into my gemini server
2020-07-28 10:35:21 epoch I'm*
2020-07-28 10:35:49 epoch so I can pick which vhost to use based on SNI if I want instead of in the requested URL
2020-07-28 10:37:34 kevinsan Yes, that's the most sensible to me, because otherwise some of the request has to be read prior to handing it to a back-end vhost for serving.
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2020-07-28 10:40:44 epoch hrm. why'd they do GEMINI_URL instead of REQUEST_URI ?
2020-07-28 10:41:19 epoch not really any reason for GEMINI_ variables afaict
2020-07-28 10:41:35 epoch all the HTTP_* variables are HTTP headers
2020-07-28 10:44:17 kevinsan I suppose to allow for virtual hosting without SNI?
2020-07-28 10:45:04 epoch I think apache might already have a variable name picked for this.
2020-07-28 10:45:05 kevinsan sorry, I see what you're asking. and I don't know.
2020-07-28 10:46:03 epoch "SSL_TLS_SNI string Contents of the SNI TLS extension (if supplied with ClientHello)"
2020-07-28 10:46:09 epoch https://httpd.apache.org/docs/current/mod/mod_ssl.html
2020-07-28 10:46:59 epoch I might as well use that.
2020-07-28 10:47:34 kevinsan personally, I wouldn't follow the HTTP world - it comes with baggage (e.g. is the SSL_ prefix conveying anything useful?)
2020-07-28 10:50:42 epoch if I add other env vars that might go into the SSL group, but aren't TLS, they'd still be prefixed with SSL_ ?
2020-07-28 10:51:30 epoch gemini://gemini.thebackupbox.net/env if you want to see what vars CGIs get so far. still need to add a buttload of them.
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2020-07-28 12:08:34 epoch rust on my computer just got upgraded to 1.44
2020-07-28 12:08:42 epoch so that'll probably make the error I was getting go away.
2020-07-28 12:08:45 epoch (in castor)
2020-07-28 12:08:50 epoch I'm about to test it
2020-07-28 12:28:01 epoch oh yeah. I can't test it. I got rid of the server-side bug that was causing it.
2020-07-28 12:28:02 epoch oh well
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2020-07-28 13:05:17 epoch where was it that I read SNI was required for gemini?
2020-07-28 13:36:19 kensanata In the spec.
2020-07-28 13:36:49 kensanata Chapter 4: "Use of the Server Name Indication (SNI) extension to TLS is also mandatory, to facilitate name-based virtual hosting."
2020-07-28 13:39:01 kensanata SNI was also used in a reply to a point of mine regarding CN having to match the hostname. More here: gemini://alexschroeder.ch/page/Comments_on_2020-07-20_Does_a_Gemini_certificate_need_a_Common_Name_matching_the_domain%3F
2020-07-28 13:41:58 kensanata And as far as I remember, nobody else weighed in except for some musings by Solderpunk: https://lists.orbitalfox.eu/archives/gemini/2020/002267.html
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2020-07-28 14:12:14 epoch so I guess I can just refuse any request that doesn't have SNI
2020-07-28 14:15:24 kensanata I don't know. Does calling openssl from the command line do SNI? If that would preclude basic clients from working, I'd be concerned.
2020-07-28 14:15:58 kensanata Hm, not so bad: ｢If -servername is not provided, the TLS SNI extension will be populated with the name given to -connect if it follows a DNS name format. If -connect is not provided either, the SNI is set to "localhost".｣
2020-07-28 14:16:19 kensanata That means, it even works for 127.0.0.1! :)
2020-07-28 14:16:42 kensanata (The above is from the s_client man page.)
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2020-07-28 16:29:22 acdw good morning everyone!
2020-07-28 16:30:12 wgreenhouse kensanata:
2020-07-28 16:30:50 wgreenhouse kensanata: oops. interesting--I think maybe some gemini server certs I've encountered are missing SNI, based on complaints emacs's nsm generates when using elpher
2020-07-28 16:46:13 vee Hi acdw
2020-07-28 16:50:13 kensanata wgreenhouse: I'm not sure I understand. My understanding of SNI is akin to the host header in HTTP: the client sends it along to tell the server what hostname they want to contact, and then the server presents the correct certificate. The server doesn't send any SNI to the client, however. It's the server's certificate that is checked by the client.
2020-07-28 16:50:53 kensanata In HTTP context, that means comparing commonName and altSubjectName or whatever the fields are called with the hostname they're expecting. No SNI required.
2020-07-28 16:51:51 kensanata In Gemini context, my claim is that nothing ought to happen: just trust on first use. Those Gemini clients that try and validate the hostnames are doing it wrong. Anyway, that's my claim.
2020-07-28 16:53:10 kensanata But, because one or two people complained, I am now using SNI on the server side to pick the correct Let's Encrypt certificate to present to clients.
2020-07-28 16:53:51 wgreenhouse ah. I see :)
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2020-07-28 17:39:01 acdw hey vee :) sorry I was working with a client for a while
2020-07-28 17:39:30 acdw kensanata: that sounds really cool!
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2020-07-28 18:50:30 wgreenhouse kensanata: well elpher gives the choice of pure tofu or not. I have it set to do the same as it does with other emacs TLS connections
2020-07-28 18:51:25 wgreenhouse to do the same as emacs does with other TLS connections, I mean. oof
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2020-07-28 19:01:32 lukee hi folks
2020-07-28 19:18:55 ~tiwesdaeg hola
2020-07-28 19:21:53 lukee how are things on tilde.pink?
2020-07-28 19:23:35 makeworld Working on adding themeing to Amfora, I'm almost done
2020-07-28 19:24:28 lukee cool - what is your approach to it?
2020-07-28 19:24:29 tildebeast sounds great, makeworld
2020-07-28 19:24:39 makeworld :)
2020-07-28 19:25:08 makeworld lukee: There's gonna be many predefined keys you can use in [theme] section of the config file
2020-07-28 19:25:34 tildebeast am just using it for the first time -- is there a way of cancelling loading if a url is taking a while...?
2020-07-28 19:25:37 makeworld You can set it to a W3C color name, or a hex color code like "#ffffff"
2020-07-28 19:25:43 lukee Are we talking global theme or site themes?
2020-07-28 19:26:42 makeworld tildebeast: Happy to hear you're using it! And you've hit a pain point, unfortunately there isn't at the moment, other than Ctrl-C. You can also open a new tab, but that's not a perfect solution. I plan on fixing this though
2020-07-28 19:27:04 makeworld lukee: Global theme, like what color the bottom bar is, or headings are, etc
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2020-07-28 19:29:58 lukee Thats great. what scope of colour control do you have in a command line app - a fixed palette or the full gamut?
2020-07-28 19:30:25 makeworld It depends on the terminal
2020-07-28 19:30:45 makeworld Some only implement 16 colors, some do 256, and modern ones support truecolor, so all of RGB
2020-07-28 19:31:03 makeworld I limit the default Amfora palette to within the 256
2020-07-28 19:31:17 lukee so what happens if you choose a colour not on the palette - does it map to the nearest one?
2020-07-28 19:31:25 makeworld Or I will in the next release, I accidentally went outside it before ;)
2020-07-28 19:31:41 makeworld Depends on the terminal, I think most do that
2020-07-28 19:32:34 lukee There's a fun theme-ing fact for GemiNaut: The site-specific themes are automatically calculated based on a md5 hash of the domain
2020-07-28 19:32:51 lukee but when you go to tilde.pink the themes actually are pink
2020-07-28 19:33:00 lukee https://imgur.com/a/IQp2NtP
2020-07-28 19:33:13 makeworld Haha nice!
2020-07-28 19:33:20 lukee (both flavours of the fabric theme)
2020-07-28 19:33:25 lukee what are the chances of that?
2020-07-28 19:33:26 makeworld Boo md5 though, your colors are cryptographically secure!!
2020-07-28 19:33:31 tildebeast no problem makeworld. sounds like it's on the roadmap so maybe not worth a feature request?
2020-07-28 19:33:49 makeworld Yeah, I am already aware so there's no need. Thanks though!
2020-07-28 19:35:27 lukee Also another one for you makeworld: here is the user settings dialog for the forthcoming release of GemiNaut.
2020-07-28 19:35:28 tildebeast does gemini markup support proper "early geocities" colourschemes? :)
2020-07-28 19:35:35 lukee https://imgur.com/a/6KDyTw3
2020-07-28 19:35:55 lukee you will spot the download control fields
2020-07-28 19:36:20 makeworld Oh cool! I assume there's a No Limit option?
2020-07-28 19:36:28 lukee tildebeast: gemini markup has no visual styling
2020-07-28 19:36:39 lukee well I max out at 30mins and 1Gb
2020-07-28 19:36:46 makeworld Happy to see the new gemget feature get used
2020-07-28 19:36:51 lukee beyond that you really should use http :)
2020-07-28 19:37:09 makeworld Might be good to allow the user the option, even if it's not the default. But yeah, that's pretty long lol
2020-07-28 19:37:19 tildebeast lukee: I know. Where's the 'bing terminally facetious' emoticon when I need it?
2020-07-28 19:37:27 tildebeast s/bing/being
2020-07-28 19:37:36 lukee ok fair point!
2020-07-28 19:39:28 tildebeast :)
2020-07-28 19:39:53 lukee there's always the hunched-over-the-keyboard-in-the-dark theme https://imgur.com/a/nGFg3RY
2020-07-28 19:40:26 tildebeast would it be useful to have a pdf cheatsheet for gmi markup to help new writers? could put one together.
2020-07-28 19:40:47 lukee I think solderpunk already did one
2020-07-28 19:40:56 tildebeast nice
2020-07-28 19:41:13 natpen There is a cheatsheet already, but not in PDF form: gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/docs/cheatsheet.gmi
2020-07-28 19:41:26 natpen That could be a good starting point :)
2020-07-28 19:42:01 tildebeast was thinking of something that looks nice on a wall or tacked to the back of a convenient colleague
2020-07-28 19:44:31 lukee its barely long enough for half a page
2020-07-28 19:45:52 lukee https://imgur.com/a/dzGY24r
2020-07-28 19:47:04 lukee actually the cheatsheet doesnt seem to mention links - not sure why
2020-07-28 19:47:20 lukee the other page by solderpunk on gemtext is this one
2020-07-28 19:47:21 lukee gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/docs/gemtext.gmi
2020-07-28 19:52:10 Cadey i think i found an ambiguity in the text/gemini spec
2020-07-28 19:52:27 Cadey what is the document at gemini://gemlog.blue/ supposed to render?
2020-07-28 19:52:44 Cadey should the `gemlog . blue` be part of the fixed-width output?
2020-07-28 19:53:14 makeworld Cadey: You mean the ASCII art at the top?
2020-07-28 19:53:19 Cadey yes
2020-07-28 19:53:25 Cadey i'm seeing amfora not render that
2020-07-28 19:53:37 lukee the art should be fixed width
2020-07-28 19:53:38 makeworld Hmm that's weird
2020-07-28 19:53:47 makeworld What are you seeing?
2020-07-28 19:54:09 lukee Ah there is a comment on the opening ```
2020-07-28 19:54:16 Cadey yeah
2020-07-28 19:54:17 lukee which is not supposed to be rendered
2020-07-28 19:54:20 Cadey okay
2020-07-28 19:54:39 makeworld Ohh yeah, anything after the ``` is not rendered
2020-07-28 19:54:42 lukee they are as yet undefined, but the whole opening ``` should not be shown
2020-07-28 19:55:10 lukee maybe they might become the equivalent to alt-text or some rendering hint if a programming language or ...
2020-07-28 19:55:11 makeworld It could be used for metadata though, a common example is for blind people, it would read that to them, instead of reading out the ASCII art
2020-07-28 19:55:24 makeworld Yeah, alt-text
2020-07-28 19:58:25 Cadey thanks, i managed to fix a parsing error in maj
2020-07-28 19:58:43 lukee great to hear there is a new client on the block
2020-07-28 20:00:28 Cadey yep: https://i.imgur.com/rfPdf9c.png
2020-07-28 20:01:10 lukee nice colour scheme and visual design for a terminal app
2020-07-28 20:01:18 lukee are those menus at the top?
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2020-07-28 20:01:51 Cadey yep
2020-07-28 20:02:11 Cadey though most are actually buttons
2020-07-28 20:02:25 Cadey i'm considering moving the active url + metadata into the titlebar
2020-07-28 20:02:34 Cadey gives more space for content that way
2020-07-28 20:03:04 lukee I can see the advantages - then it feels like you're directly controlling the page URL
2020-07-28 20:03:23 tildebeast ah. thought there was a gemini server on tilde.town. oops
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2020-07-28 20:06:19 lukee Cadey: just a thought, do you really need to show the mime type? might free up more space for the url?
2020-07-28 20:09:22 Cadey lukee: probably not, but i don't have a place to expose that elsewhere yet
2020-07-28 20:15:30 lukee but who really needs to know that info?
2020-07-28 20:15:46 Cadey it helps when debugging the client
2020-07-28 20:15:50 lukee (the client obviously yes)
2020-07-28 20:15:53 lukee ok with you now
2020-07-28 20:16:31 @ben tildebeast: were you thinking of tilde.team? there's a gemini server there
2020-07-28 20:16:47 @ben mkdir ~/public_gemini
2020-07-28 20:19:37 tildebeast thanks ben. do i need a default 'index.gmi' for it all to work?
2020-07-28 20:19:45 @ben yeah that will do it
2020-07-28 20:19:48 @ben cgi works too
2020-07-28 20:20:14 tildebeast is there a delay for cron jobs or whatever, or will it just magically appear in geminispace?
2020-07-28 20:21:54 Cadey one way to find out :D
2020-07-28 20:22:07 tildebeast yeah, just put some gibberish in there and nothing's showing yet
2020-07-28 20:22:25 tildebeast the suspense isn't killing me, but it's making me crave chips
2020-07-28 20:24:47 Cadey also i've been considering making something like capcom but it would assemble weekly/monthly collections of posts into eBook files for offline reading with something like a kindle
2020-07-28 20:24:51 makeworld If you're still using Amfora, make sure you reload to clear cache
2020-07-28 20:25:44 tildebeast ah. was using ncgopher for this just because. will try amfora
2020-07-28 20:25:55 Cadey tildebeast: i can check locally if you want
2020-07-28 20:26:20 tildebeast Not to worry Cadey, it's up!
2020-07-28 20:26:23 tildebeast Thanks anyway
2020-07-28 20:26:34 tildebeast Now to think of some meaningful content for the ages...
2020-07-28 20:27:02 Cadey you can do what i do and just post about whatever comes to mind
2020-07-28 20:27:17 tildebeast that presupposes a mind :) but yes, will give it a go
2020-07-28 20:28:03 tildebeast thanks all
2020-07-28 20:28:16 Cadey tildebeast: if you need inspiration: gemini://cetacean.club/journal/
2020-07-28 20:28:27 tildebeast i'll take a look. thanks!
2020-07-28 20:28:29 @ben tildebeast: the homepage is cgi so it will show up if you have an index.gmi
2020-07-28 20:28:31 Cadey no problem
2020-07-28 20:28:49 tildebeast this gets better and better. liking the look of gemini
2020-07-28 20:29:02 @ben Cadey: are you also on freenode#lobsters - your nick is familiar
2020-07-28 20:29:56 Cadey yes
2020-07-28 20:30:09 Cadey i regularly get to the top of lobste.rs lol
2020-07-28 20:31:50 @ben ok cool, i'm benharri there
2020-07-28 20:32:06 @ben i mostly just lurk in irc
2020-07-28 21:02:16 xj9 excited that my web viewer is ready enough to replace our old website
2020-07-28 21:03:31 xj9 now i get to port the whole thing to pycopy!
2020-07-28 21:07:40 makeworld Hmm I never seen pycopy before
2020-07-28 21:08:54 makeworld What's the point?
2020-07-28 21:11:22 xj9 the point of pycopy?
2020-07-28 21:11:42 xj9 similar to micropython (its a fork)
2020-07-28 21:12:29 xj9 the point for me is fun
2020-07-28 21:13:39 makeworld What makes it fun? I've just never done anything like that
2020-07-28 21:15:19 companion_cube is it a bytecode interpreters inside?
2020-07-28 21:15:25 xj9 i like working in minimal variants of a language
2020-07-28 21:16:27 xj9 in this case it means that i could run some of our stuff on a microcontroller instead of a proper computer at some point
2020-07-28 21:16:42 xj9 sort of a degrowth thing
2020-07-28 21:17:10 makeworld Ah ok, that's cool
2020-07-28 21:17:21 xj9 and i'm not so far gone that i'm writing these things in FORTH (yet)
2020-07-28 21:17:34 makeworld companion_cube: Pycopy is a separate implementation of the Python language spec
2020-07-28 21:17:50 makeworld Like PyPy, or micropython, circuitpython, etc
2020-07-28 21:17:52 companion_cube that doesn't answer my question ;)
2020-07-28 21:18:10 makeworld Sorry lol
2020-07-28 21:18:39 makeworld It doesn't just interpret bytecode, it also interprets Python
2020-07-28 21:19:05 makeworld It probably also generates and interprets bytecode, but I don't know off hand
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2020-07-28 21:49:36 xj9 i remember reading about the internals, but i can't remember how it works exactly
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2020-07-28 23:31:03 makeworld tildebeast: I had already written about cancelling page loading in my notes, but I made an issue for it just now: https://github.com/makeworld-the-better-one/amfora/issues/57
2020-07-28 23:31:10 makeworld If you have anything to add, that would be the place
2020-07-29 00:37:07 makeworld Amfora v1.4.0 released! Binaries uploading now
2020-07-29 00:37:08 makeworld https://github.com/makeworld-the-better-one/amfora/releases/tag/v1.4.0
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2020-07-29 00:49:18 Cadey makeworld: do you think you could make amfora binaries on amd64 linux static binaries? (CGO_ENABLE=0 at build time)
2020-07-29 00:56:51 epoch "The site-specific themes are automatically calculated based on a md5 hash of the domain" :) I used that trick in something else.
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2020-07-29 02:05:00 makeworld Cadey: They are static. Are you having an issue?
2020-07-29 02:05:23 Cadey yeah they're not working on NixOS
2020-07-29 02:05:35 Cadey i've been having to use the aarch64 binary with qemu as a stopgap
2020-07-29 02:06:47 makeworld Weird...
2020-07-29 02:06:50 makeworld What's the bug?
2020-07-29 02:07:08 makeworld I gtg actually, but feel free to tell me here and I'll respond later. Or create an issue
2020-07-29 02:07:10 Cadey the kernel throws a "file not found" error :D
2020-07-29 02:07:16 makeworld For what file?
2020-07-29 02:07:36 Cadey the amd64 binary
2020-07-29 02:07:53 makeworld Hmm. What's the exact output?
2020-07-29 02:08:00 makeworld Ok gtg sorry, I'll respond later
2020-07-29 03:14:28 makeworld Cadey: What was the error exactly?
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2020-07-29 05:18:25 rmgr Howdy howdy
2020-07-29 05:36:04 rmgr So has anybody played around with webring-type functionality?
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2020-07-29 06:56:58 epoch not really
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2020-07-29 06:59:28 rmgr Ive sort of been thinking about writing a simple gemring server
2020-07-29 07:21:04 kensanata Is Spacewalk somehow misconfigured with regards to IPv6? I don't remember running into this before but right now Elpher is waiting until it runs into a timeout and then it gets the content via IPv4.
2020-07-29 09:14:08 cyflea kensanata: not quite - I'm having an occasional problem where Elpher can't connect on IPv6 nor IPv4 and I have to restart emacs.
2020-07-29 09:14:10 ⚡ cyflea shrugs
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2020-07-29 09:47:01 kensanata cyflea: Hm. I've had good luck so far...
2020-07-29 10:04:24 cyflea ah, i just saw the exact behaviour you described, kensanata!
2020-07-29 10:06:29 kensanata cyflea: Haha, now what?
2020-07-29 10:08:09 cyflea it's just not listening on IPv6 from what i can see
2020-07-29 10:09:42 kensanata Yeah, the problem is that rawbread.club has an AAAA record but nobody's listening... dig -t AAAA rawtext.club
2020-07-29 10:09:45 cyflea (same thing with other, erm, popular but non-gemini ports)
2020-07-29 10:10:36 kensanata telnet rawtext.club 1965
2020-07-29 10:10:36 kensanata Trying 2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fe0e:35a8...
2020-07-29 10:10:37 kensanata ...
2020-07-29 10:10:38 kensanata ...
2020-07-29 10:10:39 kensanata ...
2020-07-29 10:24:12 Cadey kensanata: Use openssl s_client -connect
2020-07-29 10:26:01 cyflea nah, doesn't matter. it should still connect on the port even though we can't talk TLS
2020-07-29 10:26:41 cyflea (try "telnet -4 rawtext.club 1965" to see it work)
2020-07-29 10:27:11 kensanata Yeah, after a while I switched to IPv4.
2020-07-29 10:27:23 kensanata well, telnet switched to IPv4 automatically.
2020-07-29 10:52:55 epoch nmap here is saying the IPv6 port 1965 is closed, but ipv4 is open
2020-07-29 10:53:10 epoch (for rawtext.club)
2020-07-29 10:57:23 epoch my ipv6 doesn't seem broken because a traceroute6 ends between hop 11 and 12
2020-07-29 10:58:45 epoch I'm gonna bet there's a firewall blocking udp packets which is what makes the traceroute end early
2020-07-29 10:58:49 epoch and ping6 still works
2020-07-29 10:59:23 epoch whoever runs rawtext.club might want to double-check that port 1965 is passed through their firewall on IPv6 too
2020-07-29 10:59:38 epoch and that their gemini daemon is actually listening on both Ipv4 and IPv6
2020-07-29 11:00:24 ⚡ epoch puts two pennies on the table
2020-07-29 11:01:00 cyflea indeed.
2020-07-29 11:01:57 ⚡ natpen takes the pennies and buys an ice cream cone
2020-07-29 11:25:41 dkibi Cadey: do you know anything about building go stuff on nixos? I could get bombadillo to run but not amfora
2020-07-29 11:26:41 Cadey yeah, you use pkgs.buildGoModule (or just compile it with the go compiler manually), i'm gonna put some gemini stuff in my NUR repo later today
2020-07-29 11:29:54 dkibi oh I didn't know nur
2020-07-29 12:32:01 kensanata natpen: I bet taking two pennies to buy an ice cream cone is dating yourself.
2020-07-29 12:32:25 kensanata I remember sour snakes or what ever they are called for 5 Swiss cents.
2020-07-29 12:35:10 kensanata Switzerland has this weird system where the smallest coin in actual circulation is 5 cents.
2020-07-29 12:37:33 kensanata Oh, official pictures of our coins! https://www.snb.ch/en/iabout/cash/id/cash_coins#t2
2020-07-29 12:42:23 kensanata Ah, and Wikipedia beats everybody, once again...
2020-07-29 12:42:50 login kensanata: many countries have the smallest coin in circulation beig 5 cents
2020-07-29 12:44:19 kensanata login: All the denominations I knew as a kid have been taken over by the Euro, hence my impression that they have 1 cent coins "everywhere".
2020-07-29 12:45:25 kensanata I guess the UK is still there with it's 1p...
2020-07-29 12:46:11 kensanata When I was in Sweden, I don't think I saw a single coin in two weeks.
2020-07-29 12:46:53 natpen Starting wth 5 cent coins is a really interesting idea! I've seen some hot takes on the US penny and how it's not even worth the cost/effort to produce them anymore. I wonder if the Swiss system is based on that same line of reasoning
2020-07-29 12:46:53 CommunistWolf denmark still has its own currency too
2020-07-29 12:47:33 CommunistWolf though the smallest coin is now the 50 øre
2020-07-29 12:49:07 kensanata natpen: The 1¢ was taken out of circulation in 2007, the 2¢ was taken out of circulation in 1978.
2020-07-29 12:50:06 natpen Also, if anyone wants to try out version 0.2ish of GUS threads, it got some upgrades over the past few days. gemini://gus.guru/threads
2020-07-29 12:50:17 kensanata I remember a particular chain (Denner) having lots of prices ending in .99 instead of the typical .95 and they did in fact hand out 1¢ but it was understood to be a marketing gag and I don't know how other stores reacted to people paying with these coins. They probably all hated Denner for it.
2020-07-29 12:50:31 kensanata Yay for threads.
2020-07-29 12:52:32 kensanata natpen: Is there documentation for this, allowing us to reason about why a post is considered to be threading or not?
2020-07-29 12:52:41 natpen still a few bugs constructing thread graphs in cases where people redesign their capsule's entire URL structure :sweats: but it's getting close to being ready for primetime, I think :P
2020-07-29 12:53:08 kensanata People redesigning their stuff, unheard of! No discipline! Millenials, probably!!
2020-07-29 12:56:12 natpen No real documentation, yet. The gist of it is that GUS now has some heuristics to determine if a given page is "post like" (oversimplifying, but think of this like "does the URL contain `/glog/` or `/gemlog/`? If so it's a post). And some heuristics to determine if a link between to pages is cross-capsule (this works the same way that backlinks do now, in distinguishing between the two types and giving more prominen
2020-07-29 12:56:12 natpen ce to cross-capsule backlinks (which if I recall correctly was originally YOUR idea provided to me over email :P)). If both pages are posts, and the link between them is cross-capsule, then it be part of (or an entire) thread!
2020-07-29 12:58:17 login sweden doesn't have anonymous payments any more
2020-07-29 12:58:26 login the bank knows your salary, for e.g.
2020-07-29 12:59:49 kensanata natpen: Thanks for the info. Yeah, my posts are all in a path containing /page/
2020-07-29 13:00:47 kensanata login: I think my salary payment says "salary" on my bank account, but I wonder whether that's just the description my employer gives the transaction.
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2020-07-29 14:22:28 dctrud natpen: that looks nice. Checkin if there are any computer names things I missed there now
2020-07-29 14:24:43 natpen dctrud: thanks! And yes, that was a good thread ^.^ I've been looking at it a LOT in my debugging of the thread construction logic LOL
2020-07-29 14:26:55 dctrud heh - it was a nice surprise that several people replied :-)
2020-07-29 14:27:10 dctrud I was assuming I'd be whispering into the void, but no!
2020-07-29 14:35:52 ⚡ dctrud is excited someone named a computer after Tim Tams - they are tasty chocolate biscuits indeed
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2020-07-29 17:28:19 Cadey have people ever considered using HTTP's chunked encoding for streaming content over gemini? Think the chatlog for mozz.us
2020-07-29 17:31:38 Cadey https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chunked_transfer_encoding
2020-07-29 17:58:36 xj9 nixos will throw file not found for dynamically linked binaries that are not built with nix
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2020-07-29 18:22:53 makeworld xj9: My binaries are statically linked though, they should be anyway
2020-07-29 18:24:34 makeworld Uh oh, disabling CGO builds binaries differently...
2020-07-29 18:25:29 makeworld Cadey: I think I found the issue with nix
2020-07-29 18:25:34 makeworld https://stackoverflow.com/questions/62817082/how-does-cgo-enabled-affect-dynamic-vs-static-linking
2020-07-29 18:25:59 makeworld CGO was enabled by default, I was wrong. I don't have any C in my dependencies, but the Go stdlib does
2020-07-29 18:26:24 makeworld In the future I will build with CGO_ENABLED=0
2020-07-29 18:27:03 makeworld Actually I'd like to confirm that was the issue first, get in touch if you can
2020-07-29 18:27:16 Cadey i'm here
2020-07-29 18:27:22 Cadey just fighting jenkins at work
2020-07-29 18:27:28 Cadey i hate jenkins lol
2020-07-29 18:31:36 dkibi the nix problem is quite strict: the problem is that even the dynamic linker path is different iirc
2020-07-29 18:32:53 makeworld Oof
2020-07-29 18:36:50 makeworld Cadey: When you have the time you can try this binary on Nix. Let me know if it works, and the v1.4.0 binary on Github doesn't. https://ttm.sh/QoY.bin
2020-07-29 18:37:06 makeworld SHA256 should be 4572d500f8299ac52f59a6f75fd6c0a5c8f314725ad282035935096a1b6549da
2020-07-29 18:37:19 makeworld Just in case it was a wonky upload
2020-07-29 18:42:54 Cadey makeworld: it does
2020-07-29 18:43:08 Cadey $ file ./QoY.bin
2020-07-29 18:43:10 Cadey ./QoY.bin: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), statically linked, Go BuildID=njsio1aVwqpnbMz0moZg/Imy9GdTNkf4A4nVNQxGV/TzXQD0HZiHJJzF9ZpLBA/sv7bk3oFxVggPdi2m27A, not stripped
2020-07-29 18:43:18 Cadey running it also launchers Amphora
2020-07-29 18:43:33 makeworld Hmm, so that was the issue then. I will look a bit more into this, but unless there's a big reason not to then I will be disabling CGO for builds from now on
2020-07-29 18:50:54 makeworld https://github.com/golang/go/issues/25670
2020-07-29 18:51:12 makeworld It looks like there's a reason they use C in some cases, they think it's more robust
2020-07-29 18:51:44 makeworld Part of me would rather keep CGO enabled, because I wonder if there will be more issues otherwise
2020-07-29 18:53:45 dkibi it should be relatively straihtforward to upstream amfora to nixpkgs then prebuild binaries are not that useful imho
2020-07-29 19:02:31 makeworld Yeah, that's what I'd prefer
2020-07-29 19:02:44 makeworld I'm not really involved in Nix, but if someone else wants to put Amfora there that'd be great
2020-07-29 19:02:53 makeworld I should really make an AUR package...
2020-07-29 19:06:45 dkibi i have a package there and have been procastinating looking up the workflow again since my package is broken -.-
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2020-07-29 22:30:10 southerntofu oh noes @dancek is closing their pull request for Gemini support in Zola static site generator: https://github.com/getzola/zola/pull/1059 :s
2020-07-29 22:31:07 southerntofu (in case this person is around here, you are not alone and if you need help/feedback for this feature i'm willing to get involved)
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2020-07-30 03:13:41 Cadey i may just end up making a gemini static site generator lol
2020-07-30 04:11:37 rmgr What would be the advantage of a static site generator over just creating .gmi files by hand?
2020-07-30 04:12:17 Cadey adding backlinks to the parent folder, automatic feed generation, programmatic page generation, etc
2020-07-30 04:12:51 Cadey or is gemini a "back button navigation" kind of protocol
2020-07-30 05:07:27 rmgr I mean I use the back button pretty liberally but I've added a back to index button on my posts by hand so I can see the value there
2020-07-30 06:41:47 southerntofu that, and taxonomies support, as well as translations :)
2020-07-30 07:05:03 jan I write my homepage in org-mode and export to markdown with ox-hugo, then I run zola (a SSG) to convert to HTML. Zola does not support other formats than html, but a org-mode to gemini-export should not be hard to write
2020-07-30 07:05:31 jan and, eventually, org-mode to gopher(map)
2020-07-30 07:10:10 southerntofu jan: i don't see a reason zola should only support HTML export in the future, if you're interested in gemini support please chime in on the forge (github) #1059 / #905
2020-07-30 07:10:40 jan will do!
2020-07-30 07:11:53 southerntofu i mean there's many interesting features zola already supports such as internal links, it would be sad to have to reimplmeent the same logic for every output format ;)
2020-07-30 07:13:07 jan i totally agree
2020-07-30 07:35:54 rmgr Could someone try hitting gemini://gemring.rmgr.dev:1964/1/next and see if you end up at gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/users/acdw?
2020-07-30 07:37:50 jan rmgr: does not work in ncgopher. I get a "Connection reset by peer"
2020-07-30 07:40:36 jan hm. might be because of the non-standard port
2020-07-30 07:41:08 southerntofu rmgr: the redirect works however bombadillo complains the URL is invalid, maybe because of the trailing slash in yourredirect URI?
2020-07-30 07:41:10 jan i have to check that. thanks for pointing out a bug ;-)
2020-07-30 07:49:29 rmgr jan: If it helps gemini://gem.rmgr.dev is the same machine on the same connection on the standard gemini port
2020-07-30 07:50:59 rmgr Thanks for testing guys :)
2020-07-30 08:03:52 ⚡ southerntofu is not "guys" but always happy to help, rmgr ;)
2020-07-30 08:06:59 rmgr Apologies, peeps*
2020-07-30 08:08:27 southerntofu no worries, on the internet everybody's a cat until proven otherwise
2020-07-30 09:18:41 rmgr So I've been messing around with the issue with Bombadillo and it appears to be a problem with how the redirect URL is handled. I'm not sure if it's my end or Bombadillo's end though.. Looking at the code for Bombadillo it looks like it should work
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2020-07-30 10:34:40 Cadey i'll test with majc
2020-07-30 10:35:50 Cadey rmgr: Error fetching response: IO(Os { code: 111, kind: ConnectionRefused, message: "Connection refused" }
2020-07-30 10:52:14 Cadey also is that creating regular ebook volumes of gemlogs for offline consumption a half decent idea to anyone ele?
2020-07-30 10:52:17 Cadey else*
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2020-07-30 11:00:21 southerntofu Cadey: yes that's an amazing idea
2020-07-30 11:00:45 southerntofu i believe building a book/zine from your website should be a standard feature ;)
2020-07-30 11:20:09 hannu southerntofu: hi :) yeah I started using my first name as nick on tildeverse. I'm @dancek on github.
2020-07-30 11:22:15 hannu I got the feeling @Keats (the creator+maintainer of Zola) wasn't interested in the feature. I'm grateful for Zola as is and wouldn't like to cause any extra burden to the maintainer.
2020-07-30 11:23:39 hannu It's been a while since I touched the code but I started out really optimistic, then slowly became disillusioned by how thoroughly Zola is designed for HTML.
2020-07-30 11:23:40 jan mh.
2020-07-30 11:23:59 jan does hugo support several output formats?
2020-07-30 11:25:03 hannu IIRC yes. I couldn't stand the template language in Hugo so when I decided to write my own theme I switched from hugo to zola.
2020-07-30 11:25:59 southerntofu hey hannu, great to see you here! how are you doing? :)
2020-07-30 11:26:41 hannu It would be possible to just render zola/hugo markdown files to gemini. Even md2gemini supports stripping the front matters and I serve a dumb partial blog mirror over gemini with it.
2020-07-30 11:26:45 rmgr Cadey: I took the server down because I was just running it from the shell as a test
2020-07-30 11:26:53 jan zola works ok for me, but ox-hugo in emacs does not always work as good (which is not a surprise as its written for hugo and not zola)
2020-07-30 11:27:03 Cadey ah
2020-07-30 11:27:16 jan so i've more than once considered to port my site to hugo
2020-07-30 11:27:28 southerntofu i have the same feeling as you, zola code is really readable but the logic of it isn't always very straightforward and everything was designed for HTML support only
2020-07-30 11:27:50 hannu southerntofu: fine thanks! Someone spoke about SSGs on #gopher yesterday, which reminded me of zola. I wanted closure to the PR. :)
2020-07-30 11:28:04 jan great to meet other people using zola, btw!
2020-07-30 11:28:06 southerntofu hugo on the other hand has perfect handling of diferent formats, but the templating engine is a complete nightmare and the codebase isn't very friendly to me ^^"
2020-07-30 11:29:01 hannu I never looked at the codebase for hugo because I never had to. But the handful of shortcodes I wrote were a pain.
2020-07-30 11:29:36 southerntofu so while it would be quite an achievement to support gemini (and others) in zola i think that's only for the better: it will be the occasion to fix several design decisions in zola and make it more maintainable in the long run, at least that's my opinion and i'm willing to spend some time and mental energy on this, especially if we make it a team effort and can mutualize neurons to
2020-07-30 11:29:38 southerntofu come up with cleverer solutions :D
2020-07-30 11:29:48 jan i might try to port my custom theme to hugo. have to feel the pain myself
2020-07-30 11:30:11 @tomasino Easy peasy! You got this! You're a star
2020-07-30 11:30:39 southerntofu jan: i wish you the best, but last time i tried hugo i almost wrote an SSG myself, before finding out @Keats wrote zola precisely because hugo was INSANE
2020-07-30 11:31:40 southerntofu tomasino: hello! we've all got this because we're all stars ;)
2020-07-30 11:31:44 jan not that my theme is complicated
2020-07-30 11:32:00 @tomasino My God... It's full of stars
2020-07-30 11:32:07 jan hi tomasino.
2020-07-30 11:32:26 Cadey but does this sentence make you breathe manually?
2020-07-30 11:33:29 @tomasino I'm holding my breath to be antagonistic
2020-07-30 11:33:57 Cadey that means i win :P
2020-07-30 11:34:09 hannu southerntofu: that's a commendable idea. I'm happy to join with my unfortunately limited time if you (we?) can come up with a reasonable plan and convince @Keats it's a good idea.
2020-07-30 11:35:30 hannu But I have the general feeling that maintaining Zola is not that fun for them right now, so I'm not sure how to go forward with ideas like this.
2020-07-30 11:38:41 southerntofu yeah, it looks like a ton of very unrewarding work.. especially with all the weird corner-cases issues popping up all the time :)
2020-07-30 11:41:00 southerntofu my perspective is that zola is undergoing major changes: translations were introduced some time ago (and will be reworked for fluent support), theming system just got radically enhanced and simplified, now there's discussion around whether the page/section distinction makes any sense (#687) and the unification of path representations (#977)
2020-07-30 11:41:34 southerntofu so now is a good time to take a solid critical look at some other pieces that bother us, and try to see how we could make them both simpler and more flexible
2020-07-30 11:43:25 southerntofu i'm sorry i was not involved in your PR or gemini support, i was busy with other things i didn't mean to let you down ;)
2020-07-30 11:44:32 southerntofu (maybe this would be more fitted in a #zola chan, don't you think jan & hannu ?)
2020-07-30 11:44:42 djph what's "zola" ?
2020-07-30 11:44:56 southerntofu a static site generator
2020-07-30 11:45:22 hannu I personally feel there's a lot of unnecessary complexity in Zola (and most SSGs) because they want to be simple for the end-user. In the end there are just files and their metadata and they're used to render pages. All groupings (sections, taxonomies, translations etc) are different facets of the same general concept.
2020-07-30 11:46:18 djph and here I thought just writing *txt and passing them through a quick sed script was good enough
2020-07-30 11:46:44 kensanata Hah
2020-07-30 11:46:59 hannu If this discussion doesn't bother people here I'd like to keep it here. If an SSG for gemini is to be built, it would be nice to consider people's wishes for it.
2020-07-30 11:48:06 djph I'm honestly not a "web-" anything guy beyond "I write static html, and I like it" ... is a "generator" really necessary? Other than dealing with the whole "it's just one long line of text" weirdness
2020-07-30 11:48:24 hannu djph: I'm also maintaining my gemini site with cat, sed, gemfeed, make and ansible. But I'd switch to a good SSG if one existed.
2020-07-30 11:48:48 jan i think that cross-publishing is the real issue here.
2020-07-30 11:48:54 hannu It tells a lot, though, that I have a build of zola that outputs gemini yet I still rather use make.
2020-07-30 11:49:07 jan take a piece of text ang convert it to a gophermap, html and gemini files
2020-07-30 11:49:20 djph hannu: honestly, I just wrote a shell script. I called it "orbit".
2020-07-30 11:49:38 southerntofu then you ust wrote what we call an SSG djph :)
2020-07-30 11:50:11 djph just cleans up the (correct) formatting of line terminators every 72 characters, and then kicks it to my gemini box
2020-07-30 11:50:19 southerntofu some SSGs allow exporting to multiple formats, using internal links and applying different content types, that's mostly why you would use an SSG instead of a simple Makefile
2020-07-30 11:50:40 jan and automatic feed generation
2020-07-30 11:50:51 southerntofu hannu: as long as nobody from #gemini complains we're having too much zola-specific talks.. ;)
2020-07-30 11:51:21 southerntofu i agree with you there's some useful generalizations/abstractions that aren't explored in zola yet
2020-07-30 11:51:26 djph Now, if I could only learn LaTeX / dvi internals enough to write a tex2gmi (dvi2gmi) processor
2020-07-30 11:51:35 southerntofu and i believe they would make the maintenance a lot easier ;)
2020-07-30 11:53:11 djph (with my luck, I'd have to learn emacs too ... blergh)
2020-07-30 11:54:24 southerntofu so i'll try to find some time today or tomorrow to review your PR and provide some feedback
2020-07-30 11:58:04 kensanata Emacs is the editor that keeps on giving.
2020-07-30 12:00:13 jan ;-)
2020-07-30 12:00:35 jan that's why i'd like an org-mode to gemini export
2020-07-30 12:00:42 jan and org-mode to gophermap
2020-07-30 12:01:10 jan or org-mode -> md -> (gemini|gopher|html)
2020-07-30 12:01:21 kensanata I just write gemtext directly.
2020-07-30 12:01:25 kensanata So simple.
2020-07-30 12:01:43 kensanata And the result is simple HTML when you go the other way.
2020-07-30 12:03:09 Cadey i keep meaning to make a simple gemini -> HTML renderer for a HTTPS view of my capsule
2020-07-30 12:03:22 kensanata Do it!
2020-07-30 12:03:29 kensanata https://transjovian.org:1965/ is just that...
2020-07-30 12:04:15 kensanata If you know how, you can get the raw gemtext via HTTP as well: https://transjovian.org:1965/raw/2020-07-29%20Deleting%20pages%20and%20files for example.
2020-07-30 12:04:20 Cadey i'm gonna use my gruvbox css theme too a-la https://within.website
2020-07-30 12:04:21 kensanata No frills.
2020-07-30 12:04:46 kensanata Cadey: I like "Inquire within" :)
2020-07-30 12:05:10 Cadey you are the first person to get that joke in 5 years
2020-07-30 12:07:41 kensanata I did think olin seemed familiar and now I see the toki pona packages within x...
2020-07-30 12:08:18 Cadey yep i'm that person
2020-07-30 12:08:29 Cadey still working out how i want to do webassembly stuff from gemini
2020-07-30 12:08:41 kensanata Looking at my cgit I'll note moku-pona, nimi-mute, sitelen-mute...
2020-07-30 12:09:03 Cadey a! mi ken toki e toki pona
2020-07-30 12:09:19 kensanata pona!
2020-07-30 12:09:34 kensanata I didn't know what to use for wiki, though.
2020-07-30 12:09:53 Cadey lipu sona mute
2020-07-30 12:09:58 Cadey many learn documents
2020-07-30 12:11:12 kensanata Hm, interesting.
2020-07-30 12:11:27 kensanata Better than looking for speed or quick, for sure.
2020-07-30 12:12:18 Cadey tawa tawa?
2020-07-30 12:13:04 kensanata I like it.
2020-07-30 12:13:14 Cadey a pona!
2020-07-30 12:14:22 Cadey but yeah, after work today i'm gonna work on the ideas for the gemlog -> eBook building
2020-07-30 12:14:30 Cadey idea*
2020-07-30 12:14:57 ~tiwesdaeg should be pretty simple to convert to epub
2020-07-30 12:15:26 Cadey yeah, i was going to do gemini -> markdown (rust) and markdown -> epub (pandoc)
2020-07-30 12:15:44 Cadey i built my text/gemini parser to enable this stuff
2020-07-30 12:16:07 ~tiwesdaeg pandoc is what I'd suggest
2020-07-30 12:16:43 Cadey yeah, pandoc is how i made the eBook files for my other published books
2020-07-30 12:17:14 kensanata The only epub stuff I made I made using ebook-convert from HTML.
2020-07-30 12:17:16 ~tiwesdaeg I could see some sort of gemini based periodical being published as epub
2020-07-30 12:18:06 ~tiwesdaeg converting to markdown seems like a much simpler process
2020-07-30 12:18:10 Cadey i'd also have a kindle version (kindlegen is dead simple to use), might end up trying to figure out how to send attachments over email programmatically so i can have people get it in their inbox every week
2020-07-30 12:18:21 Cadey "much simpler process" is an understatement lol
2020-07-30 12:19:15 ~tiwesdaeg there was a great manga service for a while that converted manga to mobi and emailed it to your kindle through a web interface
2020-07-30 12:19:21 Cadey i have a function that takes in the gemtext and returns a list of nodes
2020-07-30 12:19:31 kensanata I'd like to have an epub reader that doesn't look like iTunes or some other all-in-one-library-management-system like calibre.
2020-07-30 12:19:32 Cadey tiwesdaeg: yeah that's the kind of thing i've been wanting to go for
2020-07-30 12:19:42 Cadey kensanata: pandoc!
2020-07-30 12:20:40 ~tiwesdaeg I pretty much never read ebooks on a desktop/laptop
2020-07-30 12:21:05 Cadey i have a kindle oasis for this stuff lol
2020-07-30 12:21:07 kensanata Cadey: pandoc as a reader, not as a converter?
2020-07-30 12:21:11 ~tiwesdaeg and the phone only when I'm not hip on carrying around the big kindle
2020-07-30 12:21:17 Cadey kensanata: convert to markdown, pipe to less
2020-07-30 12:21:40 ~tiwesdaeg I'd really love some sort of open source hardware e-ink reader
2020-07-30 12:21:46 Cadey there is one
2020-07-30 12:22:00 Cadey https://itsfoss.com/open-book/
2020-07-30 12:22:21 ~tiwesdaeg is that the one where a guy was working on plans to build your own?
2020-07-30 12:22:35 Cadey the one with the detailed PCB instructions yeah
2020-07-30 12:23:01 ~tiwesdaeg yeah, I was thinking more along the lines of something like the pinephone
2020-07-30 12:23:40 ~tiwesdaeg pinereader, new ereader from pine64, bring your own OS!
2020-07-30 12:24:00 Cadey ~~and with native gemini support~~
2020-07-30 12:24:02 login isn't pinephone, pinebook slow?
2020-07-30 12:24:11 kensanata Cadey: Haha. No, I have the E-Book Viewer app which is part of calibre, but somehow my Firefox doesn't know about it so it only offers it in my default E-Book Editor... and so I end up confused when I haven't looked at epub stuff in a while.
2020-07-30 12:24:31 ~tiwesdaeg login: they're arm platforms
2020-07-30 12:24:51 Cadey login: slow is a relative term
2020-07-30 12:25:19 ~tiwesdaeg pinebookpro looks pretty neat
2020-07-30 12:25:32 Cadey also an eBook reader doesn't really need to be that fast
2020-07-30 12:25:37 ~tiwesdaeg nope
2020-07-30 12:26:12 ~tiwesdaeg I'd really like a 10" color e-ink reader for cheap
2020-07-30 12:26:56 Cadey the PCB is a work of art though: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/joeycastillo/The-Open-Book/master/images/book-rev5.jpg
2020-07-30 12:26:57 ~tiwesdaeg I feel like e-ink devices have very very slow progression times
2020-07-30 12:28:06 rmgr I'd love an open e-ink tablet
2020-07-30 12:28:24 rmgr I feel like Pine did mention the idea in a blog at some point
2020-07-30 12:29:45 ~tiwesdaeg I'll even take a grayscale only version
2020-07-30 12:30:02 ~tiwesdaeg something about the larger e-ink displays demand a high price
2020-07-30 12:30:36 Cadey yeah
2020-07-30 12:32:29 ~tiwesdaeg https://www.tindie.com/products/joeycastillo/the-open-book-pcb-bare-pcb/
2020-07-30 12:32:35 ~tiwesdaeg soldering required
2020-07-30 12:33:59 Cadey overall it's a surprisingly cheap build
2020-07-30 12:34:22 ~tiwesdaeg sourcing components individually can add up
2020-07-30 12:34:28 Cadey 15 + 35 + 28, 68 dollars about?
2020-07-30 12:36:00 ~tiwesdaeg I always hate trying to buy specific resistors, caps, etc...
2020-07-30 12:36:15 ~tiwesdaeg I'll find one on one website and another elsewhere
2020-07-30 12:36:20 ~tiwesdaeg so shipping adds up
2020-07-30 12:37:50 ~tiwesdaeg ok, I read the instructions a bit more
2020-07-30 12:38:45 ~tiwesdaeg looks like you can get all the components from digikey
2020-07-30 12:46:20 djph kensanata: emacs is a great OS. Needs a good editor though.
2020-07-30 12:46:28 Cadey djph: evil-mode
2020-07-30 12:47:09 djph Cadey: but why go through the heartache of learning emacs in the first place :P
2020-07-30 12:47:16 Cadey djph: org-mode
2020-07-30 12:47:26 kensanata djph: Pfff. Evolution gave most of us ten fingers and ten toes, plus a nose. That's more than enough to use Emacs!
2020-07-30 12:47:59 djph kensanata: now, if 'ctrl' was still up where 'capslock' is today, there might be something to say about emace
2020-07-30 12:48:06 djph *emacs' key combos
2020-07-30 12:48:15 ⚡ djph would still sooner learn ed
2020-07-30 12:48:24 kensanata djph: You haven't remapped Caps Lock to Compose Key?
2020-07-30 12:48:28 Cadey i use a combination of emacs and vim keybinds in practice
2020-07-30 12:48:42 Cadey it's vim motions and M-x type-shit for me :D
2020-07-30 12:49:10 djph kensanata: I haven't needed to, since I don't use emacs :P
2020-07-30 12:49:34 kensanata 🤔
2020-07-30 12:49:56 djph 'box' ?
2020-07-30 12:50:06 ~tiwesdaeg nano 5.0 was just released ;P
2020-07-30 12:50:12 ▬▬▶ baschdel has joined #gemini
2020-07-30 12:50:15 ⚡ djph would rather use emacs than nano.
2020-07-30 12:51:26 easeout same, Cadey. emacs keys just work lots of places, and vim does my heavy lifting
2020-07-30 12:52:38 easeout however i do use my caps lock key as control. caps lock seems like a waste of a home row key.
2020-07-30 12:52:49 @julienxx Hello geminauts!
2020-07-30 12:53:21 @julienxx natpen: I noticed Gus does not handle queries starting with a number properly ie. "9front". It seems like it's treated as 9 and front.
2020-07-30 12:56:07 ~tiwesdaeg 9front #soon How is the project coming along julienxx?
2020-07-30 12:56:27 @julienxx still #soon :p
2020-07-30 12:56:45 @julienxx I have quite a lot of corporate work these days
2020-07-30 13:00:51 ~tiwesdaeg darn corporations
2020-07-30 13:02:17 @julienxx I work in music education tools so summer vacations are usually our busiest period where we release big stuff before kids are back to school
2020-07-30 13:04:21 tildebeast lost my link to deedum's repo, can anyone remind me where it's hosted please?
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2020-07-30 13:27:15 tildebeast found it
2020-07-30 13:45:32 jan julianxx: cool that you are into e-learing. I'm as well :)
2020-07-30 13:45:56 jan and I agree: summers tend to be quite busy, school starts soon
2020-07-30 13:53:35 @julienxx jan: oh nice, what do you teach?
2020-07-30 13:54:16 jan well, I don't teach, but I create tools for e-learning used by publishers
2020-07-30 13:54:48 jan more technical stuff, less content production itself
2020-07-30 13:55:09 @julienxx pretty cool
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2020-07-30 14:35:44 Cadey i've been putting my DnD homebrew content on my sattelite
2020-07-30 14:35:56 Cadey capsule*
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2020-07-30 15:21:31 ⚡ omni was thinking "of course Cadey is hosting something on her cubesat.."
2020-07-30 15:28:28 Cadey omni: a gemini site hosted on a sattelite would be amazing lol
2020-07-30 15:47:30 siina Yes!
2020-07-30 15:49:54 southerntofu hannu: just reviewed your patch for zola, it's good work! there's a few missing pieces, such as trying to find templates with the same names but another extension automatically (instead of having to choose between HTML and gemini output in the frontmatter) but you already did most of the job i believe :)
2020-07-30 15:50:10 xj9 y'all have a cubesat omg
2020-07-30 15:50:12 xj9 that's rad
2020-07-30 15:50:57 southerntofu i'll try running your branch on a test site, and fork it on tildegit.org if you're still happy to hack on it (cc jan)
2020-07-30 15:55:12 Cadey xj9: i don't
2020-07-30 15:55:20 Cadey apparently i have a reputation lol
2020-07-30 15:57:11 hannu southerntofu: yeah, I pretty much stopped when I realized @Keats isn't very keen to merge it whatever I do.
2020-07-30 15:59:13 southerntofu yeah i can see this, i had this feeling more than once with Keats in the past, but a few days ago he asked me to help him on the project ("join the zola org" in his terms) so i feel like we're slowly building some trust
2020-07-30 15:59:24 southerntofu also we can maintain our fork for the tildeverse to serve as a testbed for a while :)
2020-07-30 15:59:52 southerntofu i know some folks on ~fr who would love to try out a gemini patch for their zola blogs :D
2020-07-30 16:02:13 hannu Hmm. I'll try to re-read my code and proposals later tonight and see if I'll find the motivation to continue soon
2020-07-30 16:02:15 hannu I'ts
2020-07-30 16:02:46 hannu It's my 10th wedding anniversary tomorrow though so gonna be a couple of days before anything major <3
2020-07-30 16:11:47 makeworld Amfora on an old terminal setup 😮
2020-07-30 16:11:51 makeworld https://portal.mozz.us/gemini/going-flying.com/files/vfd-prompt.jpg?raw=1
2020-07-30 16:11:55 makeworld https://portal.mozz.us/gemini/going-flying.com/files/vfd-verks.jpg?raw=1
2020-07-30 16:12:06 makeworld Pics are from this post: gemini://going-flying.com/~mernisse/01.gmi
2020-07-30 16:13:37 makeworld It obv. doesn't work super well, but it's super cool to me it's being used like that at all
2020-07-30 16:13:48 makeworld Honestly I would suggest Bombadillo for terminals like that lol
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2020-07-30 16:18:26 isvarahparamahkrsnah hello
2020-07-30 16:20:39 makeworld Hello!
2020-07-30 16:48:59 southerntofu hannu: happy anniversary! sure that's a higher priority than any SSG hack, zola can wait ;)
2020-07-30 17:58:42 djph hannu: congrate :)
2020-07-30 17:58:46 djph *congrats, even
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2020-07-30 18:50:23 login 10 years -- nice!
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2020-07-30 21:07:27 Cadey gonna go look at hacking up the gemlog2ebook pipeline
2020-07-30 21:22:11 ⚡ Cadey mkdir karnycukta
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2020-07-31 00:19:05 rmgr gemlog2ebook sounds cool
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2020-07-31 02:30:05 Cadey rmgr: yeah, i'm working on the processes for grabbing the eBook files, translating it to markdown and then creating an ePub file using pandoc. probably going to have weekly volumes and have an option to have it emailed to an address of your choosing in kindle format so you can have new issues automatically uploaded to your kindle every week
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2020-07-31 09:16:47 djph Cadey: isn't 'kindle format' *mobi ?
2020-07-31 10:07:31 Cadey djph: With kindlegen, all things are easy
2020-07-31 10:11:24 djph Cadey: ah! been reading the thing going "... wait since when does pandoc do ..."
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2020-07-31 10:32:29 lukee hi folks
2020-07-31 10:33:04 lukee just back from a few hours at the coal face having fun with some gemini hacking
2020-07-31 10:34:19 lukee I've put together a new Go library to convert html to gemini
2020-07-31 10:34:21 lukee https://github.com/LukeEmmet/html2gemini
2020-07-31 10:34:54 lukee and there is also a practical command line app that wraps it
2020-07-31 10:35:13 lukee https://github.com/LukeEmmet/html2gmi-cli
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2020-07-31 11:46:19 Cadey gemini://cetacean.club/journal/07-31-2020-newsbook.gmi thoughts?
2020-07-31 11:48:35 lukee hi Cadey
2020-07-31 11:48:48 lukee I had a look at your post - seems handy
2020-07-31 11:49:13 @tomasino hiya all
2020-07-31 11:49:46 Cadey hi tomasino
2020-07-31 11:49:52 @tomasino how does it?
2020-07-31 11:50:02 @tomasino goes?
2020-07-31 11:50:03 lukee my only thought is that perhaps there would be a way to merge multiple feeds. Since some folk wont be publishing too often but would still be good to merge into a book of "this months writing" or what have you
2020-07-31 11:50:04 @tomasino words
2020-07-31 11:50:39 @tomasino i bought a tiny little iron
2020-07-31 11:50:50 Cadey lukee: i've got this rigged up so i specify the number of days to look back in the feed, i may end up doing a monthly volume too
2020-07-31 11:51:02 lukee tomasino: to iron a tiny little shirt?
2020-07-31 11:51:09 @tomasino sewing projects
2020-07-31 11:51:31 @tomasino it's important to iron seams and such. things are much harder without ironing
2020-07-31 11:51:43 @tomasino Cadey, how's it looking with the preformatted stuff?
2020-07-31 11:51:56 Cadey i need to do a test render to pandoc, but surprisingly decent
2020-07-31 11:52:03 @tomasino when i tried to generate cosmic.voyage into an ebook the font size i ended up with to allow 80 columns was tiiiiiiny
2020-07-31 11:52:55 @tomasino i've got a manual A4 volume that's halfway laid out now, but it's so tedious
2020-07-31 11:53:50 lukee tomasino: I have a smallish iron like this: https://amzn.to/30fWJTN
2020-07-31 11:56:44 Cadey https://xena.greedo.xeserv.us/files/flightjournal
2020-07-31 11:58:59 Cadey this is like the most naiive of naiive attempts lol
2020-07-31 11:59:10 lukee all software starts this way
2020-07-31 12:00:36 @tomasino https://www.euronics.ee/t-en/54194/home-appliances/travel-iron-electrolux-800-w/edbt800
2020-07-31 12:01:21 @tomasino test run looks great Cadey
2020-07-31 12:03:14 lukee tomasino - looks like you could iron more than just seams with that. I thought you might be talking about something like this: https://amzn.to/39HHypr
2020-07-31 12:03:38 @tomasino aww, that is adorable!
2020-07-31 12:04:19 Cadey i'll probably send an email to the list once it's less hacky
2020-07-31 12:04:25 @tomasino awesometown
2020-07-31 12:04:57 @tomasino i hope the list settles on something cool that utilizes streaming. It's got so many possibilities
2020-07-31 12:05:11 @tomasino even if it's just a stream/gemini mime type or something instead of text/gemini
2020-07-31 12:05:20 @tomasino text/gemini-stream ?
2020-07-31 12:05:22 @tomasino whatever
2020-07-31 12:05:25 Cadey i'm looking at implementing streaming using HTTP chunked encoding
2020-07-31 12:05:37 lukee I'd be fine with some other mime type, just not in the core protocol
2020-07-31 12:05:37 Cadey you know where it's like <number of bytes><bytes>\r\n
2020-07-31 12:05:55 @tomasino ooooh, i see
2020-07-31 12:05:56 @tomasino that's neat
2020-07-31 12:06:33 @tomasino handling all things as a stream seems overkill, but the gemtext format is so perfectly suited to it. It would be a shame to not take advantage
2020-07-31 12:07:06 lukee there are so many things gemtext is good for IMO
2020-07-31 12:07:35 lukee really the spec should split into the protocol bit and the markup format bit
2020-07-31 12:07:50 Cadey ^
2020-07-31 12:08:09 @tomasino beyond just sections, you mean? yeah. that was recommended to solderpunk early on and he just made gemtext its own section instead of its own document
2020-07-31 12:08:38 lukee simplicity is a virtue though
2020-07-31 12:08:41 @tomasino i think gemtext itself would be the bigger beneficiary of a true split. Shove that collection of good ideas into other projects
2020-07-31 12:09:46 lukee I also think ANSI enhanced stuff should be a new format like text/gemini+x-ansi
2020-07-31 12:11:58 lukee I guess the advantage of having the text format in with the protocol is that is really neatly sets the boundary of what is Gemini
2020-07-31 12:12:19 @tomasino clients must support X at minimum is nice
2020-07-31 12:12:26 lukee other extensions to the markup or protocol are related but outside
2020-07-31 12:12:28 @tomasino especially when X is easy
2020-07-31 12:13:30 lukee otherwise there can be a fragmentation where clients and servers cherry pick from the options
2020-07-31 12:13:59 @tomasino mmhmm, we've had some close calls on fragmentation already with mercury and gemini+write/titan stuff
2020-07-31 12:14:32 lukee I dont think mercury was serious contender, just a thought experiment
2020-07-31 12:15:03 lukee but I think there is a gap on content submission
2020-07-31 12:15:20 @tomasino this is where i contribute
2020-07-31 12:15:27 @tomasino i write stuff not about gemini! :)
2020-07-31 12:15:54 lukee yes you do, I sort of meant content submission in a client server sense
2020-07-31 12:16:17 @tomasino oh, push data up-wise
2020-07-31 12:16:22 lukee at the moment it is very asymmetric clients are really just consumers
2020-07-31 12:16:43 @tomasino yep yep yep. i'm cool with that, personally
2020-07-31 12:17:02 lukee and the input type is very limited to static queries
2020-07-31 12:17:11 lukee for me this is a gap
2020-07-31 12:18:11 lukee even the early days of both gopher and the web had a non-idempotent content submission mechanism. Gopher sent content following a <tab> and Web had POST
2020-07-31 12:19:14 @tomasino i think we have something on par with gopher presently
2020-07-31 12:19:33 lukee yes, where gopher ended up
2020-07-31 12:19:59 lukee but before gopher got URLs it had a non-cacheable content submission mechanism
2020-07-31 12:20:12 lukee so we are gopher- at the moment
2020-07-31 12:22:51 lukee I would like to see something simple like what gopher had. Maybe <url><space><encoded submission>crlf
2020-07-31 12:25:30 @tomasino Cadey: gemini client in v? ;)
2020-07-31 12:26:12 ⚡ Cadey .-.
2020-07-31 12:27:52 @tomasino hehe
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2020-07-31 13:15:00 companion_cube downloads itself in <1s!
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2020-07-31 17:04:02 Cadey yay static file serving!
2020-07-31 17:04:06 Cadey [2020-07-31T17:03:38Z INFO maj::server] 127.0.0.1:59080: gemini://maj.local.cetacean.club/static/ Success text/gemini
2020-07-31 17:06:30 companion_cube in the spirit of websocketd, there should be a geminid :p
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2020-07-31 17:43:11 Cadey is there a common logging format for gemini like there is with apache?
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2020-07-31 18:48:09 @tomasino nope
2020-07-31 18:48:45 @tomasino some folks were discussing it in the ML a while back, but mostly about ways to store useful data for debuging and preventing abuse without being too nosy
2020-07-31 19:43:34 Cadey i'm gonna do `{remote-ip}: {url} {status-code-text} {meta}` for now
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2020-08-01 15:11:10 @ben julienxx: have you had any issues building asuka on ubuntu 18.04? https://ttm.sh/Qrm.txt
2020-08-01 15:11:20 @ben looks like some kind of ssl error?
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2020-08-01 16:00:48 Cadey ben: install the openssl library?
2020-08-01 16:04:53 login asuka is named after?
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2020-08-01 16:10:24 makeworld Cadey: I assume you'll release the epub as well? It's much more portable than mobi, I think
2020-08-01 16:10:50 makeworld Also I was thinking about writing a mastodon bot that announces gemlog posts. Thoughts?
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2020-08-01 16:50:50 xfnw epub is cooool
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2020-08-01 16:53:31 isvarahparamahkrsnah i like epub
2020-08-01 16:53:38 isvarahparamahkrsnah i have a collection of epubs to read
2020-08-01 16:54:00 ⚡ xfnw likes calibre and is sad its still on python2
2020-08-01 16:54:38 acdw yall talking about Cadey's idea to epubify geminispce?
2020-08-01 16:55:52 makeworld Epub good
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2020-08-01 16:56:01 makeworld acdw: Yes
2020-08-01 16:56:17 makeworld I said above, before you joined: Cadey: I assume you'll release the epub as well? It's much more portable than mobi, I think
2020-08-01 16:57:00 makeworld > Also I was thinking about writing a mastodon bot that announces gemlog posts. Thoughts?
2020-08-01 16:57:28 acdw oh awesome. I don't use epub but only b/c I haven't found a reader I really like
2020-08-01 16:57:48 acdw I like the masto bot idea! I agree with solderpunk in their pikkulog about getting permission tho
2020-08-01 16:58:12 acdw I looove the idea of having physical books of geminispace, like the Library of Congress archiving every tweet but like, waay better
2020-08-01 16:58:21 acdw like Lo-Fi magazine printing their issues
2020-08-01 16:59:00 makeworld Yeah it's cool. The Gemini zine!!
2020-08-01 16:59:06 acdw ZIINE
2020-08-01 16:59:08 makeworld Where did solderpunk mention permission?
2020-08-01 16:59:08 acdw I love zines
2020-08-01 16:59:09 makeworld Yessss
2020-08-01 16:59:28 acdw gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/~solderpunk/pikkulog/2020-07.gmi
2020-08-01 16:59:31 acdw first thing there
2020-08-01 16:59:50 acdw and this is where I see that using emacs for IRC *and* gemini browsing would be super handy
2020-08-01 17:00:01 acdw I just have to figure out how to configure ERC
2020-08-01 17:00:25 makeworld It sounds like he's saying that each author having to ask to be included would be a "misgiving"
2020-08-01 17:00:49 makeworld I was thinking my bot would be opt-out, which I know isn't great but there won't be any content otherwise
2020-08-01 17:00:59 Cadey makeworld yes
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2020-08-01 17:01:05 Cadey of course i will
2020-08-01 17:01:14 Cadey i've just been busy with work lol
2020-08-01 17:01:23 makeworld All good, glad to hear it!
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2020-08-01 17:05:17 acdw awesome :)
2020-08-01 17:05:47 Cadey i'm getting close to being able to host my own sattelite using the maj server framework
2020-08-01 17:05:54 acdw And I think opt-out is okay, so long as it's well-documented and people know they're about to be re-hosted
2020-08-01 17:06:08 acdw I'd suggest a ML post
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2020-08-01 17:06:34 makeworld Yeah, I'll do that then thanks
2020-08-01 17:06:57 acdw Cadey: awesome! So maj is a server *and* a client? Or it's a framework you can wrap either way?
2020-08-01 17:07:02 acdw makeworld :)
2020-08-01 17:07:30 Cadey it's a server framework and a client framework with child projects for other things too
2020-08-01 17:07:57 acdw oh awesome! I'll have to check it out ... eventually ... when I have *any* free time lol
2020-08-01 17:08:06 Cadey it's also very not documented
2020-08-01 17:08:14 Cadey but i've been working more on getting it working lol
2020-08-01 17:08:54 acdw haha I know that feeling
2020-08-01 17:18:07 isvarahparamahkrsnah hellu
2020-08-01 17:18:13 acdw hi :)
2020-08-01 17:18:15 acdw lol
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2020-08-01 21:17:33 Cadey i have a terrible idea
2020-08-01 21:17:43 Cadey what if we put user agents in the fragment part of the URL?
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2020-08-01 21:27:06 makeworld Cadey: Ughh lol
2020-08-01 21:27:18 makeworld But also, fragments aren't supposed to be sent to the server I thought
2020-08-01 21:27:19 Cadey how terrible is that idea lol
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2020-08-01 21:27:56 makeworld Yes ok I checked, fragments aren't sent to the server
2020-08-01 21:28:01 makeworld Lol
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2020-08-01 21:35:12 Cadey wellllllll
2020-08-01 21:35:21 Cadey fragments aren't sent with standard HTTP clients
2020-08-01 21:36:03 Cadey also what's the best practice for changing the TLS cert of a gemini node?
2020-08-01 21:36:32 Sario I think we're still trying to figure that out
2020-08-01 21:37:07 makeworld Wait until the previous one expires is the best advice I have
2020-08-01 21:37:29 makeworld I generate one based on community recommendations, so 5 years and EC keys I think
2020-08-01 21:37:40 makeworld *and generate
2020-08-01 21:53:33 Cadey ! i think i just got it working
2020-08-01 21:53:43 Cadey cetacean.club is being served with my own server
2020-08-01 21:53:55 Cadey gemini://cetacean.club/dice <-- example dynamic route
2020-08-01 21:54:35 @julienxx ben: it used to work. Which rust and OpenSSL version do you have?
2020-08-01 21:55:26 @julienxx login: Asuka comes from here https://patlabor.fandom.com/wiki/ASUKA-MPL-96
2020-08-01 21:56:40 @julienxx Followed the “trend” started by AV-98
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2020-08-01 22:25:37 lukee evening all
2020-08-01 22:42:51 ⚡ lukee watches the tumbleweed roll past...
2020-08-01 22:51:55 Cadey https://portal.mozz.us/gemini/cetacean.club/journal/08-01-2020-hosted-with-maj.gmi
2020-08-01 22:52:39 lukee Cadey: why post via proxy?
2020-08-01 22:53:18 Cadey because i copied the wrong link lol
2020-08-01 22:53:23 Cadey gemini://cetacean.club/journal/08-01-2020-hosted-with-maj.gmi
2020-08-01 22:53:38 lukee Congrats with the self-hosting
2020-08-01 22:53:45 lukee its a major milestone
2020-08-01 22:53:56 Cadey yeah :D
2020-08-01 22:54:03 Cadey at some level i'm just wondering what i messed up lol
2020-08-01 22:54:11 Cadey i'm pretty sure i made this code robust
2020-08-01 22:54:14 Cadey but i guess we'll find out
2020-08-01 22:54:22 lukee well it all looks ok to me via GemiNaut
2020-08-01 22:55:11 Cadey i'm also considering making the site serve itself over gopher and http
2020-08-01 22:55:54 lukee on the one hand why not
2020-08-01 22:56:09 lukee on the other hand, its nice to have content that brings folk into Gemini
2020-08-01 22:57:08 lukee how would you implement your input box for the dice roll in http?
2020-08-01 22:59:17 makeworld Cadey: It'd be nice if you added a link on the dice rolling page. Nice though
2020-08-01 22:59:25 makeworld Like a link back to /dice
2020-08-01 22:59:41 Cadey yeah i thought i did
2020-08-01 22:59:48 Cadey oh
2020-08-01 22:59:50 Cadey LOL
2020-08-01 22:59:52 Cadey i typoed something
2020-08-01 23:01:34 Cadey gemini://cetacean.club/dice?3d6
2020-08-01 23:01:43 lukee would be nice to document the syntax for the dice roll. I know the prompt has a regex thing, but its pretty opaque
2020-08-01 23:02:27 Cadey https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dice_notation
2020-08-01 23:02:32 Cadey it's a fairly standard format
2020-08-01 23:02:59 lukee for RPGers
2020-08-01 23:03:08 lukee not ordinary humans ;)
2020-08-01 23:03:25 lukee well anyway a link to that page is good enough
2020-08-01 23:04:57 makeworld Yeah some examples would be nice. I knew what you were getting at but it's confusing
2020-08-01 23:05:25 Cadey just need to redeploy the site, sec
2020-08-01 23:05:44 Cadey should be back
2020-08-01 23:06:06 Cadey ...if i can build the right thing lol
2020-08-01 23:06:19 lukee hi makeworld: hows things with you?
2020-08-01 23:06:29 makeworld Not bad, hbu?
2020-08-01 23:06:32 Cadey there
2020-08-01 23:07:15 lukee good thanks - getting more of my teeth into Go recently
2020-08-01 23:07:31 makeworld Wrote some code for Toronto Mesh today, I'm about to work on adding a progress bar flag to gemget
2020-08-01 23:07:36 makeworld Oh nice :)
2020-08-01 23:07:50 makeworld Have you see gobyexample.com yet?
2020-08-01 23:08:23 makeworld Or the official Go tour? That's good too
2020-08-01 23:09:25 lukee I have this: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Programming-Language-Addison-Wesley-Professional-Computing/dp/0134190440
2020-08-01 23:09:54 lukee otherwise Google usually finds what I need, plus reading other peoples source.
2020-08-01 23:10:17 lukee I'm just at the stage where I have enough knowledge to be dangerous, but not quite confident yet
2020-08-01 23:11:23 lukee I'm pleased with my HTML -> Gemini converter, which I even managed to package as a standalone app that can take piped input
2020-08-01 23:11:54 Cadey i've actually been a go user for about 8 years and have gravitated over to rust
2020-08-01 23:12:56 lukee I'm sure rust is more powerful, but too much of a leap for me right now
2020-08-01 23:14:21 Cadey fair
2020-08-01 23:14:30 Cadey just be prepared for go modules to gaslight you
2020-08-01 23:14:50 lukee huh - not even got into go modules ye :)
2020-08-01 23:14:54 lukee ye -> yet
2020-08-01 23:15:12 Cadey it's bad in really subtle ways lol
2020-08-01 23:15:23 lukee what is the point of them?
2020-08-01 23:15:33 Cadey to give go a dependency management tool
2020-08-01 23:15:36 Cadey and if it was just that
2020-08-01 23:15:39 Cadey it would be half decent
2020-08-01 23:15:48 Cadey but in true go fashion, it's more and less at once
2020-08-01 23:16:04 Cadey one of the biggest problems is semantic import versioning
2020-08-01 23:16:16 lukee I thought go get pulls in dependencies, but I suppose it doesnt do much with versioning
2020-08-01 23:16:33 Cadey or when your package reaches version 2, you need to rewrite the go.mod file to declare your package as repo.host/org/name/v2
2020-08-01 23:16:44 Cadey and every single user needs to update their imports to match
2020-08-01 23:16:59 Cadey and if they mix v1 and v2, then users can have both implementations in the same binary
2020-08-01 23:17:10 Cadey which can cause very subtle issues in weird and unexpected places
2020-08-01 23:17:21 lukee urgh sounds like dll-hell
2020-08-01 23:17:27 Cadey oh it's worse
2020-08-01 23:17:31 lukee this made me laugh today gemini://gemlog.blue/users/acdw/1596226708.gmi
2020-08-01 23:17:35 Cadey it's a chilling effect
2020-08-01 23:19:27 lukee is there any other approach for dependency management in Go, apart from just like forking the repos yourself and binding to your own copies
2020-08-01 23:24:10 login Are you looking for the go-package-manager?
2020-08-01 23:25:05 Cadey lukee: all the options are garbage, but go modules is somehow the least garbage
2020-08-01 23:27:03 lukee ah well. But on the whole I'm liking Go so far. I really like that you create standalone binaries on different platforms
2020-08-01 23:28:11 companion_cube https://vrac.cedeela.fr/DSC_5357.JPG today I saw a real life gemini :p
2020-08-01 23:28:16 lukee normally you have to do whole ritual and prayer to package an application for sharing
2020-08-01 23:28:52 lukee nice
2020-08-01 23:31:19 lukee anyway its late here, so I'm turning in - catch you all later
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2020-08-01 23:41:26 makeworld companion_cube: Ooh nice, where?
2020-08-01 23:54:18 companion_cube smithonian museum of air and space
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2020-08-02 15:56:14 epoch so, I have no idea what other people are going to do with this, but /I'm/ going to use gemini-proxy as another URI scheme.
2020-08-02 15:56:26 epoch and http-proxy
2020-08-02 15:56:50 epoch so I can make really long URIs that contain a list of proxies before the actual resource
2020-08-02 15:57:11 epoch maybe.
2020-08-02 15:57:50 epoch gemini-proxy://gem.proxy/gemini://actual-site/
2020-08-02 15:58:18 epoch the gemini://actual-site/ gets passed as the request to gemini://gem.proxy/
2020-08-02 15:58:33 kensanata Is there a need for this kind of hopping?
2020-08-02 15:59:39 epoch probably not really
2020-08-02 15:59:53 epoch I'll figure out how useful it is to me after making it work this way
2020-08-02 16:00:27 epoch the other day I was wanting an easier way to set a proxy from a socks4a:// URI
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2020-08-02 16:01:27 epoch I figure I'll end up pushing the end URI handler programs through proxychains
2020-08-02 16:01:46 epoch it might just end up as a mess that doesn't quite work right
2020-08-02 16:02:17 epoch if it does I can just revert back to setting proxies manually.
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2020-08-02 16:26:34 ℹ Mode #gemini [+o 230AAAAAQ] by ChanServ
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2020-08-02 16:27:06 ℹ 230AAAAAQ is now known as tilde
2020-08-02 16:27:10 ℹ tilde is now known as ben
2020-08-02 16:27:59 epoch http://amundsen.com/hypermedia/hfactor/ oooh. wonder what a gemini one would look like
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2020-08-02 16:31:17 epoch one box filled probably
2020-08-02 17:01:08 djph Given the descriptions, sounds like LE, LO, CU,
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2020-08-02 17:13:45 ℹ Channel #gemini: 2 nicks (1 op, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 1 normal)
2020-08-02 17:13:47 ℹ Notice(cosmic.tilde.chat): Creation time of #gemini changed from Sun Aug 02 2020 17:13:42 to Sat Aug 31 2019 22:41:57
2020-08-02 17:13:47 ℹ Mode #gemini [-ont g] by cosmic.tilde.chat
2020-08-02 17:13:47 ℹ Mode #gemini [+nrt] by hub.tilde.chat
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2020-08-02 17:13:47 ℹ Mode #gemini [+qo tiwesdaeg tiwesdaeg] by hub.tilde.chat
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2020-08-02 17:13:47 ℹ Mode #gemini [+oo julienxx ben] by hub.tilde.chat
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2020-08-02 17:13:47 ℹ hub.tilde.chat has changed topic for #gemini to "💎 Gemini (protocol) enthusiasts - gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | https://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | gopher://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | publically logged in gemspace"
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2020-08-02 17:14:33 ℹ Channel created on Sat, 31 Aug 2019 22:41:57
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2020-08-02 17:24:43 epoch LE is embedded, like img tags
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2020-08-02 17:31:32 ▬▬▶ tomasino has joined #gemini
2020-08-02 17:31:32 ℹ Topic for #gemini is "💎 Gemini (protocol) enthusiasts - gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | https://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | gopher://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | publically logged in gemspace"
2020-08-02 17:31:32 ℹ Topic set by tomasino (~tomasino@gopher.black) on Sun, 28 Jun 2020 20:55:49
2020-08-02 17:31:32 ℹ Channel #gemini: 82 nicks (3 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 79 normals)
2020-08-02 17:31:42 ℹ irc: disconnected from server
2020-08-02 17:32:08 ▬▬▶ tomasino has joined #gemini
2020-08-02 17:32:08 ℹ Topic for #gemini is "💎 Gemini (protocol) enthusiasts - gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | https://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | gopher://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | publically logged in gemspace"
2020-08-02 17:32:08 ℹ Topic set by tomasino (~tomasino@gopher.black) on Sun, 28 Jun 2020 20:55:49
2020-08-02 17:32:08 ℹ Channel #gemini: 82 nicks (3 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 79 normals)
2020-08-02 17:32:08 ℹ Mode #gemini [+o tomasino] by ChanServ
2020-08-02 17:32:50 ℹ Channel created on Sat, 31 Aug 2019 22:41:57
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2020-08-02 17:33:01 ℹ irc: disconnected from server
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2020-08-02 17:34:02 ℹ Topic for #gemini is "💎 Gemini (protocol) enthusiasts - gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | https://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | gopher://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | publically logged in gemspace"
2020-08-02 17:34:02 ℹ Topic set by tomasino (~tomasino@gopher.black) on Sun, 28 Jun 2020 20:55:49
2020-08-02 17:34:02 ℹ Channel #gemini: 82 nicks (3 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 79 normals)
2020-08-02 17:34:02 ℹ Mode #gemini [+o tomasino] by ChanServ
2020-08-02 17:34:48 ℹ Channel created on Sat, 31 Aug 2019 22:41:57
2020-08-02 17:44:51 ▬▬▶ lukee has joined #gemini
2020-08-02 17:48:07 lukee epoch: thats interesting - my reading is Gemini would be LO (navigational links =>) and LT (input types 10 and 11) only
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2020-08-02 17:52:35 lukee even then the LT is only partial (not fully templated, just one field effectively)
2020-08-02 18:12:43 epoch that's kind of what I was thinking one and a half boxes.
2020-08-02 18:13:24 epoch There's a handful of things that are only LO
2020-08-02 18:13:38 epoch like, terminals that make URIs clickable
2020-08-02 18:52:02 epoch alright, thinking about how to compare SNI vs request to detect if someone is actually proxying or not.
2020-08-02 18:52:28 epoch I think I need to user SNI:SERVER_PORT to compare with REQUEST_URI's host and port
2020-08-02 18:53:29 epoch what would be the best error for refusing to proxy?
2020-08-02 18:53:33 ⚡ epoch checks spec
2020-08-02 18:54:33 epoch 53
2020-08-02 18:57:09 epoch :)
2020-08-02 18:57:37 epoch alright, now I have an easy to use script for testing the proxying ability of servers.
2020-08-02 18:57:56 epoch with URIs like: gemini-proxy://gemini.thebackupbox.net/gemini://epo.k.vu/
2020-08-02 18:58:25 epoch and my server will notice that and 53
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2020-08-02 18:58:40 Cadey https://christine.website/blog/gemini-web-fear-missing-out-2020-08-02 i wrote something on HTTP today, gonna repost this to gemini
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2020-08-02 19:09:14 epoch I know there's been mentions of what to do with a proxied request... I guess I'll have to pay more attention to them when I re-read those.
2020-08-02 19:23:54 lukee the weird thing with proxied requests is you can even request URIs of other protocols
2020-08-02 19:24:52 lukee so your request might even be "http://domain/pathCRLF"
2020-08-02 19:25:10 lukee but my impression is this is an edge case, not sure why it is necessary
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2020-08-02 19:44:44 makeworld Cadey: Nice, I'll check it ou
2020-08-02 19:44:49 makeworld *out!
2020-08-02 19:45:12 makeworld My post will be up soon, sort of talks about that too
2020-08-02 19:46:58 djph Cadey: nice writeup.
2020-08-02 19:49:37 dkibi interestingly gemini recently created a tiny bit of fear of missing out in me
2020-08-02 19:50:21 dkibi I didn't check up on capcon in a while and also didn't add anything to my capsule so I fear of being left behind by the comunity
2020-08-02 19:51:08 makeworld Yeah I get that
2020-08-02 19:57:51 makeworld Alright, here's my post
2020-08-02 19:57:52 makeworld gemini://makeworld.gq/gemlog/2020-08-02-personal-feeds.gmi
2020-08-02 19:58:25 makeworld It mostly becomes about an upcoming Amfora feature instead of anything deep, but I'm happy to have another ~~notch~~ post on my belt
2020-08-02 20:01:13 dkibi given that I'm stuck in a city I'm unfamiliar with for a week I hope to be able to post things this week
2020-08-02 20:01:34 makeworld Good luck!
2020-08-02 20:07:50 makeworld Nice post Cadey :)
2020-08-02 20:08:14 makeworld Well written. I definitely should be practicing writing more, but most days it just seems a lot easier and more fun to code
2020-08-02 20:11:04 lukee makeworld: good post - I agree it is nice to get some of this into the clients. I think there is some scope for experimentation to build the best UI for monitoring a collection of feeds
2020-08-02 20:11:25 Cadey i'm using tabletop RPGs to help me write fantasy stuff
2020-08-02 20:15:14 lukee I think when you've subscribed to a number of feeds (say 50 maybe), an interesting approach is how to surface the writing of less frequent writers among those who post very regularly
2020-08-02 20:16:12 lukee Spacewalk is nice in that it shows the most recent post of the feeds. probably some power law thing going on here
2020-08-02 20:17:57 makeworld lukee: Thanks! Not sure what you mean about Spacewalk though, I thought it just shows page updates, and ranks pages from most recently updated to least
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2020-08-02 20:40:32 lukee sorry not very clear. My remark about the power law was just me thinking out loud about the distribution of gemlog (or other postings) posters. A few will update very regularly, most not very often, perhaps a Power law shape curve
2020-08-02 20:41:31 lukee I also agree with your point about being able to subscribe to non-Atom page. probably would require caching a hash to detect changes or something like that
2020-08-02 20:58:21 makeworld Ah ok
2020-08-02 20:58:37 makeworld And yeah definitely, it would storing a hash of the page on the disk
2020-08-02 20:58:46 makeworld Which is what spacewalk does
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2020-08-02 21:06:16 epoch actually made my gemini daemon able to proxy requests.
2020-08-02 21:06:27 ▬▬▶ obrut has joined #gemini
2020-08-02 21:06:40 epoch it only proxies gemini and http atm
2020-08-02 21:07:05 makeworld Netsplit just happened I think
2020-08-02 21:07:08 epoch yeah
2020-08-02 21:07:14 makeworld Sounds cool
2020-08-02 21:08:02 @ben we've been upgrading nodes to inspircd 3.7.0 today
2020-08-02 21:08:07 @ben only a couple left
2020-08-02 21:08:14 @ben will be back up shortly
2020-08-02 21:09:14 makeworld Ah ok, thanks
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2020-08-03 02:31:49 rmgr Are there any Android Gemini clients other than that one linked on the list on circumlunar.space?
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2020-08-03 04:03:24 easeout this week i learned some go and built the most basic static site generator for glogs.
2020-08-03 04:03:26 easeout gemini://tilde.team:1965/~easeout/glog/2020-08-02-golang-and-gloggery.gmi
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2020-08-03 05:33:51 rmgr So that post would just be the text and the link at the bottom in a text file and then the generator handles putting the date on and stuff?
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2020-08-03 09:41:04 kensanata I get the feeling somebody is indexing my entire site. Does GUS have a known IPv6?
2020-08-03 09:42:33 kensanata The domain gus.guru seems to only have an IPv4? I don't really understand the output of dig -t AAAA gus.guru... Something about SOA?
2020-08-03 09:53:58 kensanata 2604:a880:400:d0::17e4:b001 has made 13953 in the last day or two, accounting for 97% of the connections.
2020-08-03 09:54:35 kensanata whois says DigitalOcean...
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2020-08-03 10:03:52 natpen kensanata: fhaf's GUS!
2020-08-03 10:04:13 natpen oops. that's GUS!
2020-08-03 10:04:30 kensanata Ah!
2020-08-03 10:06:18 kensanata If that number is stable, would it make sense to put it on the gus.guru site somewhere? Or perhaps it's already there and I missed it...
2020-08-03 10:07:22 natpen Maybe? I actually don't know much about ipv6. can/should i associate it with DNS somehow, alongside or analogous to the ipv4 a record?
2020-08-03 10:08:29 kensanata I think the association only goes one way: given a name like gus.guru, you can discover their IP numbers. Unless you're running a mail server in which case there's funky reverse lookup that your ISP has done for you, so we don't care about that.
2020-08-03 10:08:39 djph natpen: in terms of DNS, it's exactly the same.
2020-08-03 10:08:58 cyflea well, you can often ask your ISP to insert a reverse DNS entry for your IP
2020-08-03 10:09:13 djph or in the case of DO, for the droplet
2020-08-03 10:09:14 cyflea (i haven't done this myself for my IPv6 addresses, though...)
2020-08-03 10:09:18 kensanata So the only "reverse lookup" option people like me have is whois – and that only gives me DigitalOcean, in this case.
2020-08-03 10:11:51 cyflea hm, yes - this is a little old, but suggests they don't support PTR records for IPv6 yet - https://www.digitalocean.com/community/questions/ptr-record-for-ipv6
2020-08-03 10:12:45 kensanata I just tried "host 2604:a880:400:d0::17e4:b001" and that gives me "1.0.0.b.4.e.7.1.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.d.0.0.0.0.4.0.0.8.8.a.4.0.6.2.ip6.arpa has no PTR record"
2020-08-03 10:14:22 kensanata So in short, natpen, I wouldn't do anything on the tech side. All I'd do is write a sentence on the documentation page, some where.
2020-08-03 10:15:04 @tomasino yo yo yo
2020-08-03 10:15:06 @tomasino how goes it all
2020-08-03 10:15:13 natpen Okay. So no AAAA record? (that's the only promising sounding thing I found in the last 2 mins of searching) - https://superuser.com/a/993290
2020-08-03 10:15:23 natpen hi tomasino
2020-08-03 10:15:50 cyflea the AAAA record is for hostname -> IPv6 addr. The PTR record (if there was one) is for IPv6 addr -> hostname.
2020-08-03 10:15:57 kensanata natpen: Yeah, I don't think you need it because I assume there's no service running on that machine that peole need to access from the outside. All they need they get from gus.guru.
2020-08-03 10:16:42 @tomasino oh Cadey posted about gemini... *runs off to read*
2020-08-03 10:16:43 kensanata tomasino: doing OK; how's summer in Iceland
2020-08-03 10:16:48 @tomasino summer is glorious!
2020-08-03 10:16:56 @tomasino gonna head to the pool in a few for my daily swim
2020-08-03 10:16:59 @tomasino how's things with you all?
2020-08-03 10:17:01 kensanata Very cool.
2020-08-03 10:17:32 kensanata I'm still on summer break so I'm doing OK.
2020-08-03 10:18:01 kensanata My sister is getting married and people are coming and COVID-19 is still around, so that sucks
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2020-08-03 10:20:27 @tomasino oh, that's great news and horrible simultaneously
2020-08-03 10:20:32 @tomasino i wish her the best and you all safety
2020-08-03 10:23:45 @tomasino Cadey's post was good. the lobsters replies were unnecessary to read
2020-08-03 10:23:54 @tomasino as always, don't bother with comments
2020-08-03 10:24:06 @tomasino now to catch up in gemini proper
2020-08-03 10:28:03 @tomasino oh, strike my female pronouns and s/her/they/g
2020-08-03 10:28:29 @tomasino sorry 'bout that. just caught their intro on the gemlog
2020-08-03 10:31:55 djph tomasino: "their" being ... ?
2020-08-03 10:32:25 @tomasino cadey
2020-08-03 10:33:23 @tomasino the "christine.website" had me thinking female pronouns, but they're nonbinary according to the first journal post in the gemlog so I'm fixin' my pronoun use
2020-08-03 10:33:37 @tomasino ,pronouns Cadey
2020-08-03 10:33:45 @tomasino oh, no tildebot in here?
2020-08-03 10:34:21 @tomasino julienxx: is that on purpose? (no tildebot)
2020-08-03 10:34:28 @tomasino or tiwesdaeg ^
2020-08-03 10:34:59 @julienxx no idea :)
2020-08-03 10:35:11 djph ah
2020-08-03 10:35:50 natpen kensanata: okay! I've added the current IP addresses to the about page (it will show up after a server restart as soon as GUS finishes indexing alexschroeder.ch), but I also added the AAAA record for good measure. So now you can do nslookup on both A and AAAA gus.guru DNS records.
2020-08-03 10:36:12 kensanata Thanks!
2020-08-03 10:36:32 ⚡ tomasino hugs GUS
2020-08-03 10:37:14 kensanata Doing image manipulation in ImageMagick takes as long as it does in Gimp because it takes me so damn long to figure out the options.
2020-08-03 10:37:36 vee has quit (Ping timeout: 120 seconds)
2020-08-03 10:39:07 ⚡ natpen programs GUS to return hugs
2020-08-03 10:39:29 kensanata Haha
2020-08-03 10:39:52 kensanata Future psychologists will have some hug transference theory I'm sure.
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2020-08-03 10:40:35 kensanata Why oh why did I volunteer for the job of collecting pictures and putting them in a folder?
2020-08-03 10:40:57 kensanata That's right, because the person who was in charge of it originally had a near break down...
2020-08-03 10:41:01 kensanata And now...
2020-08-03 10:41:21 kensanata Some people can't send two pictures so I have to figure out how to convert A B +append C.
2020-08-03 10:41:36 kensanata Some people send a PowerPoint! Some people send a PDF!
2020-08-03 10:41:39 kensanata Oh my...
2020-08-03 10:41:45 kensanata "Can you add this text to the image?"
2020-08-03 10:41:56 kensanata I can, but I don't want to... 😭
2020-08-03 10:44:49 @tomasino when i ask for pictures i inevitably get a word document with a picture embedded from people
2020-08-03 10:45:13 @tomasino like... how?! you already had a picture if you added it to a word doc!? Why all the extra shenanigans
2020-08-03 10:46:38 @tomasino xq: what's up with the "makedir -p" thing? was that for autodeployment stuff?
2020-08-03 10:46:55 kensanata tomasino: haha, now I feel better :D
2020-08-03 10:47:04 xq yeah, those directories did not exist on all platforms by-default
2020-08-03 10:47:23 @tomasino i mean why "makedir" and not "mkdir"
2020-08-03 10:47:28 xq huh?
2020-08-03 10:47:39 @tomasino the command in the makefile by default is listed as "makedir -p"
2020-08-03 10:47:46 @tomasino is that what you have on your platform?
2020-08-03 10:47:46 xq whoops :D
2020-08-03 10:47:51 xq that's probably just a typo
2020-08-03 10:47:52 @tomasino ahhh, hehe
2020-08-03 10:47:53 @tomasino okay
2020-08-03 10:47:57 xq i never use the makefile
2020-08-03 10:48:06 @tomasino oh, derp. :D
2020-08-03 10:48:15 xq i hate installing self-compiled software as systemwide :D
2020-08-03 10:48:26 @tomasino fair enough!
2020-08-03 10:48:44 xq i'm using QtCreator to build and have a symlink for kristall executable from builddir to my ~/.bin folder
2020-08-03 10:49:13 xq i hope i can close some kristall issues in my vacation in two weeks
2020-08-03 10:49:35 xq i'm currently having a lot of stuff in my life, moving to another flat
2020-08-03 10:49:35 @tomasino i just gave you a new one, but i think it's an easy one
2020-08-03 10:49:43 @tomasino oh congrats!
2020-08-03 10:49:44 @tomasino that's fun
2020-08-03 10:54:05 xq yeah i know :D
2020-08-03 10:54:06 xq and thanks
2020-08-03 10:54:15 xq reducing my way to work from 30km to 3km
2020-08-03 10:54:20 xq huge life improvement
2020-08-03 10:54:36 xq also taking the opportunity to renovate the new flat and making it awesome
2020-08-03 10:55:16 @tomasino 3km commute is awesome
2020-08-03 10:55:23 @tomasino do you have to physically go in to work though?
2020-08-03 10:55:29 @tomasino that's so 2019
2020-08-03 10:57:40 xq haha
2020-08-03 10:57:49 xq yeah, i need to be at my workplace for most of the tasks
2020-08-03 10:58:07 xq writing software that interacts with hw
2020-08-03 11:00:27 @tomasino ahh
2020-08-03 11:00:31 @tomasino that'll do it i suppose
2020-08-03 11:00:35 @tomasino unless..... ROBOTS
2020-08-03 11:01:35 xq haha
2020-08-03 11:01:40 xq nah, sadly no robots
2020-08-03 11:01:44 @tomasino curses!
2020-08-03 11:01:55 kensanata Also, would you want the robots to come from the office into your livingroom...
2020-08-03 11:02:18 @tomasino i'm thinking you have robots at work that type for you. You just ssh in to drive. :)
2020-08-03 11:02:30 @tomasino no possible downside
2020-08-03 11:02:35 djph tomasino: I think those are called "scripts"
2020-08-03 11:03:03 kensanata What a weird feeling: to be happy about spam in the inbox because you heard that notification sound and you were afraid of more work. But no, it was just spam. Phew! 😅
2020-08-03 11:03:17 djph kensanata: that's the best mail I get at work too
2020-08-03 11:03:24 kensanata :)
2020-08-03 11:03:51 kensanata OK, I'm off looking for lunch. Y'all stay safe and wear your masks.
2020-08-03 11:04:24 @tomasino ciao!
2020-08-03 11:04:30 @tomasino and chow
2020-08-03 11:04:31 ⚡ djph refuses to wear a mask at work. Mostly because "work" is "at home".
2020-08-03 11:04:42 @tomasino i made a new mask last night
2020-08-03 11:04:47 @tomasino posted it on pixfed
2020-08-03 11:04:49 @tomasino lemme find a link
2020-08-03 11:05:03 @tomasino https://pixfed.com/p/jamestomasino/195694479817183232
2020-08-03 11:06:12 djph now I need a jolly roger or a poison symbol :(
2020-08-03 11:06:44 @tomasino poison symbol would be great
2020-08-03 11:06:50 @tomasino poison on the left, biohazard on the right!
2020-08-03 11:08:09 djph hah
2020-08-03 11:08:36 djph I keep dorking about trying to make a decent bane mask ...
2020-08-03 11:09:11 djph ... $wifey says I'm not allowed to shave my head though :|
2020-08-03 11:09:53 @tomasino aww
2020-08-03 11:17:30 cyflea tomasino: nice mask! and those food pics are making me hungry...
2020-08-03 11:19:14 @tomasino Nom nom
2020-08-03 11:33:13 dkibi tomasino: this one looks like the freesewing one a bit
2020-08-03 11:33:30 @tomasino freesewing?
2020-08-03 11:34:07 @tomasino oh, it's a site
2020-08-03 11:34:16 @tomasino i guess it does a bit, yeah
2020-08-03 11:34:30 @tomasino it's all hand stitched cause i don't have a sewing machine
2020-08-03 11:35:28 dkibi yeah it's quite a neat site
2020-08-03 11:36:07 dkibi all open source and adapts the patterns to measures one can enter I'm currently wearing (or did until I entered my office 3min ago) my instance of their mask ^^
2020-08-03 11:36:10 @tomasino this is quite nice
2020-08-03 11:40:27 Cadey tomasino: she or they is fine, I have no strong preference between the two
2020-08-03 11:40:37 @tomasino ♥️
2020-08-03 11:41:19 Cadey And yeah the lobste.rs repliers didn't really get it I don't think
2020-08-03 11:42:06 Cadey ah well, it happens, I'm working on getting better at expressing these kinds of thoughts. Maybe I'll be more direct next time.
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2020-08-03 11:44:58 Cadey Kinda sad it didn't make it to Hacker News, those comments would have been hilarious
2020-08-03 11:49:17 ℹ andinus is now known as notme
2020-08-03 11:49:21 ℹ notme is now known as andinus
2020-08-03 11:49:45 @tomasino We had two positive HN reactions and one negative each time it hit
2020-08-03 11:51:51 Cadey it's the kind of thing that people either get or they don't
2020-08-03 11:51:53 Cadey and that's okay
2020-08-03 11:55:14 @tomasino Agreed
2020-08-03 11:59:00 @tomasino Pool time!
2020-08-03 12:07:00 dkibi Cadey: it's again another case where I'm somewhat happy that I don't have a lobste.rs account: I would have spent quite a lot of time to write a long response to some of the comments
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2020-08-03 12:26:05 omni 🖁 clam technology
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2020-08-03 13:37:25 easeout rmgr, yes, that's about it!
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2020-08-03 14:58:57 makeworld natpen: If you're seeing this, I was wondering about the new Gus known-feeds page
2020-08-03 14:59:29 makeworld It's a great feature! But I'm wondering how you decide what a feed is. Do you have a feed parser working on detection, on all XML files or something?
2020-08-03 15:01:31 makeworld In the same post you were talking about sharing GUS with the community, and how it isn't easily self-hostable. I know that sharing data is a different discussion, but I think pushing commits to git would be an easy first step to help with that. As it stands now, GUS is somewhat closed source
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2020-08-03 15:06:38 makeworld vee: ^^
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2020-08-03 15:25:49 makeworld Cadey: maj.kahless.cetecean.club has an invalid cert btw
2020-08-03 15:26:12 makeworld Wildcard certs don't work for sub-subdomains I'm afraid
2020-08-03 15:26:53 makeworld julienxx: 9til.de cert has expired
2020-08-03 15:28:16 acdw shoot so has breadpunk.club's
2020-08-03 15:32:31 @julienxx makeworld: thanks, will try to fix that later today
2020-08-03 15:32:46 makeworld Thanks!
2020-08-03 15:32:59 makeworld acdw: Oh do you run that? I've been meaning to tell someone
2020-08-03 15:33:23 makeworld Also if the person who runs bleyble.com is here... that cert has expired too
2020-08-03 15:33:37 Cadey makeworld: that's kind of intentional, i'm not sure why that domain keeps getting requests
2020-08-03 15:33:42 acdw hey makeworld! yes I do ... I've noticed it before but I keep forgetting to do anything about it
2020-08-03 15:34:20 makeworld Just make a new cert... a 5 year one this time :)
2020-08-03 15:34:31 Cadey look into the gemcert tool
2020-08-03 15:34:34 acdw haha I'm just using certbot
2020-08-03 15:34:36 Cadey it makes everything easier
2020-08-03 15:34:45 makeworld Nah man don't use certbot
2020-08-03 15:34:53 makeworld Use gemcert or the openssl commands I shared
2020-08-03 15:34:58 makeworld Lol
2020-08-03 15:34:59 acdw Aw but I wanna use the same cert for web and gemini
2020-08-03 15:35:15 makeworld It'd be nice but overall I think not worth it
2020-08-03 15:35:33 acdw yeah i can see that. I forget what command to run to update the SSL cert anyway
2020-08-03 15:35:46 acdw it works online....
2020-08-03 15:36:10 admicos quick question: why not certbot?
2020-08-03 15:36:16 acdw ^ yes that me too
2020-08-03 15:36:21 acdw but I think I can just gemcert
2020-08-03 15:37:30 acdw if i can find it.... lol
2020-08-03 15:40:59 acdw "package crypto/ed25519: unrecognized import path "crypto/ed25519" (import path does not begin with hostname)"
2020-08-03 15:41:01 acdw :(
2020-08-03 15:41:10 acdw when go get tildegit.org/solderpunk/gemcert
2020-08-03 15:42:30 Cadey are you using fedora?
2020-08-03 15:42:36 acdw nope I have Ubuntu
2020-08-03 15:42:43 Cadey how did you install go?
2020-08-03 15:43:12 acdw sudo apt-get install golang
2020-08-03 15:43:19 acdw i might need a crypto library
2020-08-03 15:43:50 Cadey oh
2020-08-03 15:43:53 Cadey that's probably why lol
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2020-08-03 15:44:04 Cadey ubuntu cripples go and ships an ancient version by default
2020-08-03 15:44:10 acdw ah awesome
2020-08-03 15:44:12 Cadey it's probably better to install from the upstream tarball
2020-08-03 15:44:22 acdw greeeeeaaaaattttt
2020-08-03 15:44:27 acdw lol thanks Cadey
2020-08-03 15:44:29 Cadey thank canonical
2020-08-03 15:44:37 Cadey worst case i can give you an ubuntu-linked version of gemcert
2020-08-03 15:44:40 acdw Oh yeah Mark Canonical or wahtever his name is
2020-08-03 15:44:46 acdw lemme try installing some stuff
2020-08-03 15:44:49 Cadey :+1:
2020-08-03 15:44:57 Cadey i'm here if you need the easy way
2020-08-03 15:45:08 acdw :) thanks
2020-08-03 15:46:54 natpen makeworld: always badgering me to see my sloppy code lol
2020-08-03 15:48:03 Cadey natpen: all art is terrible in the eyes of the artist
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2020-08-03 15:59:02 @julienxx makeworld: should be fixed, thanks again for the heads up!
2020-08-03 16:00:06 @tomasino hey Cadey - are you gonna wire up the pony api on your constellation?
2020-08-03 16:01:09 @tomasino i mean, it's fancy and all for curling, but a front-end in gemini would be glorious
2020-08-03 16:07:11 natpen makeworld: GUS known-feeds is based on url string matching of `%atom.xml`, but there's an unreleased change to also combine that with content_type == 'application/atom+xml'
2020-08-03 16:08:53 Cadey I might, but I'd need to port it to Rust
2020-08-03 16:09:47 Cadey (The original implementation is in Nim, and I no longer really want to use Nim)
2020-08-03 16:09:51 companion_cube oh, why not?
2020-08-03 16:10:18 Cadey it doesn't package nicely with my setup
2020-08-03 16:10:26 companion_cube ah, nix
2020-08-03 16:10:31 companion_cube self-inflicted pain :p
2020-08-03 16:10:49 companion_cube (tbh I'm not using nim either for now, it doesn't seem stable enough)
2020-08-03 16:11:00 Cadey Woe is me for wanting builds to be somewhat reproducible :P
2020-08-03 16:11:48 companion_cube anyway, rust is cool
2020-08-03 16:12:09 Cadey I made the setup with Maj flexible enough that there's a full blown routing macro in there
2020-08-03 16:12:59 Cadey https://tulpa.dev/cadey/maj/src/branch/main/site/src/server.rs#L79
2020-08-03 16:13:11 Cadey This is how /dice on my Gemini node works
2020-08-03 16:14:16 acdw D: gemcertted me a new cert but now molly-brown can't open the log file
2020-08-03 16:14:28 companion_cube macros are cool
2020-08-03 16:14:30 companion_cube in small doses :D
2020-08-03 16:14:34 Cadey Yeah
2020-08-03 16:14:41 Cadey they're like violence
2020-08-03 16:14:48 Cadey use them too much and you're known for being violent
2020-08-03 16:14:56 Cadey use them just enough and they can be useful
2020-08-03 16:15:02 companion_cube I'm writing a bytecode interpreter for a thing, and it's also super useful to have a few macros in there
2020-08-03 16:15:21 Cadey Especially for automating away copy-paste
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2020-08-03 16:17:26 acdw oh nope it can't open the keys lol
2020-08-03 16:18:06 acdw GOT IT
2020-08-03 16:18:42 acdw aw yiss beautiful
2020-08-03 16:19:01 acdw thanks Cadey for the help and everyone else also
2020-08-03 16:21:17 @tomasino the dice is really great
2020-08-03 16:21:34 acdw oh snap I just realized I'm not doing anything today so I can try and setup a gemlog.blue type thing on breadpunk
2020-08-03 16:21:37 acdw wish me luck
2020-08-03 16:21:49 acdw also YES the dice thing is so great, I want to use it next time I DnD
2020-08-03 16:24:46 @tomasino oh, i didn't try, but does it do Fate dice?
2020-08-03 16:24:51 @tomasino 4dF?
2020-08-03 16:24:52 @tomasino lets see
2020-08-03 16:25:23 acdw also tomasino I don't remember if I mentioned it but your stuff on the I Ching got me to grab it from the library
2020-08-03 16:25:39 acdw I haven't tried divining yet but the parts of the book I've read are really great
2020-08-03 16:25:39 @tomasino oh that's awesome!
2020-08-03 16:25:52 @tomasino i hope you get some insight from using it
2020-08-03 16:26:19 acdw yes me too :) I actually have a couple of questions to ask the oracle already; maybe I should just use a coin system instead of holding out for stalks lol
2020-08-03 16:26:40 @tomasino whatever works for you
2020-08-03 16:27:36 makeworld natpen: Sorry :P. It's just that I think having the code available is important and useful to lots of folks
2020-08-03 16:28:14 makeworld Sounds good! I think I saw some people using feed.xml which is good to check for too, but I'm not totally sure
2020-08-03 16:34:26 natpen makeworld: you can see it at https://git.sr.ht/~natpen/gus
2020-08-03 16:34:44 makeworld Yeah I saw the updates, thanks :)
2020-08-03 16:36:07 makeworld - Filenames: `atom.xml`, `feed.xml`, `*.rss`, `*.atom`- Mimetypes: `application/atom+xml`, `application/rss+xml`
2020-08-03 16:36:12 makeworld Oh whoops
2020-08-03 16:36:39 makeworld Mean to be on two separate lines. Anyway, that's probably what I'll go with for Amfora's feed detection if that's helpful
2020-08-03 16:51:11 Cadey acdw: just be aware the dice route is known to be a bit aggressive when it comes to being _actually random_, so be prepared for that
2020-08-03 16:53:43 acdw Cadey: you talking about I Ching? b/c I was struggling with that a little
2020-08-03 16:55:49 Cadey nah, /dice on cetacean.club
2020-08-03 16:55:54 Cadey it's kind of aggressively random
2020-08-03 16:57:22 acdw oh yes, lol
2020-08-03 16:57:43 acdw I did notice it took a while to load --- or do you mean it keeps a list of previous rolls and won't reroll
2020-08-03 16:57:45 login what do you mean 'aggressively' random?
2020-08-03 16:58:12 acdw ^ this. now i am confused
2020-08-03 16:58:33 Cadey it uses RDRAND for rolling dice
2020-08-03 16:58:54 Cadey this is a bit more cryptographically random than actually rolling physical dice
2020-08-03 16:59:45 acdw oh wut
2020-08-03 17:00:20 Cadey yeah
2020-08-03 17:00:25 Cadey just be aware
2020-08-03 17:00:54 Cadey it's not practially an issue, but it can make some odd things happen
2020-08-03 17:00:55 acdw I never thought about the cryptographic abilities of dice rolling
2020-08-03 17:01:12 Cadey i'm looking into using an alternative RNG for the future
2020-08-03 17:01:15 acdw so you're saying, if I'm doing diceware passwords I should use your dice, not mine?
2020-08-03 17:01:32 Cadey if you're doing diceware passwords, do not trust me
2020-08-03 17:01:49 acdw haha
2020-08-03 17:01:59 Cadey :P
2020-08-03 17:02:26 acdw I just use the same password for everything
2020-08-03 17:02:28 acdw hunter2
2020-08-03 17:02:48 Cadey i only see stars on my side
2020-08-03 17:03:19 acdw *******
2020-08-03 17:03:27 acdw that's why it's the most secure password of all time
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2020-08-03 17:03:57 Cadey oh you meant hunter2, i see
2020-08-03 17:04:23 acdw what's that? I just see stars on my side
2020-08-03 17:04:27 acdw not sure what you're talking about
2020-08-03 17:04:40 Cadey *******
2020-08-03 17:05:21 acdw oh yes
2020-08-03 17:05:26 acdw hunter2, the classic
2020-08-03 17:05:33 acdw (this is so dumb lol
2020-08-03 17:06:13 Cadey ikr
2020-08-03 17:06:21 Cadey i'm waiting for CI anyways
2020-08-03 17:06:37 acdw ah so you have an excuse. i'm literally browsing reddit
2020-08-03 17:07:13 Cadey yeah
2020-08-03 17:07:21 Cadey turns out circleCI -> Jenkins can be slow
2020-08-03 17:07:56 acdw huh! I've...heard those words before
2020-08-03 17:08:10 acdw building some software ~in the cloud~, right?
2020-08-03 17:08:19 Cadey yep
2020-08-03 17:08:24 Cadey cloud native applications deployed on kubernetes
2020-08-03 17:08:34 acdw oh cool
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2020-08-03 17:32:15 omni f8s
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2020-08-03 21:17:20 admicos so, i just made this: gemini://ebc.li/, now all I need is to actually write to it
2020-08-03 21:17:29 admicos the only concern i have is i don't have anything to write
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2020-08-03 21:46:57 cyflea That feels like a common problem, admicos - I felt similarly after getting my server up. words will come, you just have to let them.
2020-08-03 21:47:17 easeout make the clackity noise
2020-08-03 22:01:00 rmgr admicos: what is the last thing you created? What did you do on the weekend? What are your thoughts on the social media firehose posts various people listed on CAPCOM have posted about?
2020-08-03 22:04:34 admicos rmgr: i am so boring that the answer to all of the three questions are "nothing interesting"
2020-08-03 22:05:54 rmgr That's what I thought too but eventually I got ideas after a few days of having a bare site up! :P
2020-08-03 22:06:33 admicos yeah, i guess i should wait a bit
2020-08-03 22:08:51 CommunistWolf admicos: I make it a tradition to blog about my new blog setup, whenever I change it
2020-08-03 22:28:46 omni doesn't need to be like a blog either, or follow any pattern really
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2020-08-03 23:05:48 admicos i am trying a little experiment to make the gemini capsule a little less boring, what do y'all think? gemini://ebc.li/experiments/motd.gmi
2020-08-03 23:06:10 admicos i guess ":%s/the/my" since it's been a while after the last relevant message
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2020-08-03 23:23:23 rb100 admicos: seems like a fun idea
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2020-08-04 00:54:25 easeout admicos, i like it. it makes your root page feel like there's activity. home pages often feel so sterile (mine sure does)
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2020-08-04 07:25:14 cyflea admicos: looks great!
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2020-08-04 10:38:41 rmgr So are there any gemlogs not on CAPCOM I should keep an eye on?
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2020-08-04 11:09:57 lukee rmgr: you could start from GUS' list of known feeds found whilst crawling
2020-08-04 11:09:58 lukee gemini://gus.guru/known-feeds
2020-08-04 11:16:04 lukee otherwise some gemlogs might be just index pages, not as Atom. So its really whatever pages take your fancy
2020-08-04 11:30:01 kensanata rmgr: I check CAPCOM and Spacewalk.
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2020-08-04 12:12:07 kevinsan I want to speak to someone who knows about RPGs - I think the penny just dropped for me, and I kind of get what it is now.
2020-08-04 12:13:00 djph role playing games?
2020-08-04 12:14:36 kevinsan yes - off topic, but sorta not, since dice come up a lot
2020-08-04 12:15:06 djph hah
2020-08-04 12:15:19 djph can be fun, can be frustrating as all getout
2020-08-04 12:15:39 kevinsan so, in short - i think my kids naturally do this in their play, so I want to introduce some of this stuff to them (6, 8, and 11 years old)
2020-08-04 12:16:41 djph D&D 3.5 edition or pathfinder for the 11 year old. 6 and 8 might be a bit too young for them (might not).
2020-08-04 12:17:02 djph ASSUMING we're talking about proper pen & paper games and not say Icewind Dale or Baldur's Gate
2020-08-04 12:17:53 kevinsan they love screens, like all kids seem to - but I was thinking there might be something 'generative' to set the scene, but mostly pen, paper, and dice.
2020-08-04 12:18:04 djph have a 3d printer?
2020-08-04 12:18:21 kevinsan but simplified, so they can have fun. I don't have a 3d printer, but I do have a CNC
2020-08-04 12:18:57 djph Okay, then you're stuck to either drawing on a mat, or buying paper templates really
2020-08-04 12:19:43 djph Which is totally fine, but the younger ones might not take to something just drawn on paper (e.g. "this circle with an X is a statue")
2020-08-04 12:20:29 djph Or they might - they're your kids, you know them better than me :)
2020-08-04 12:21:27 kevinsan we did a sort of adventure with pen and paper, and they loved it. I felt that I needed some more structure to constrain the game to enjoyable parameters.
2020-08-04 12:22:24 kevinsan but even simple D&D is complex - my kids are of the Roblox generation. They want gratification with minimal effort.
2020-08-04 12:22:44 ⚡ lukee wants gratification with minimal effort too
2020-08-04 12:23:07 kevinsan that's what makes a good programmer, imho, so it's not a bad quality
2020-08-04 12:23:26 djph take them on basic (short) dungeon crawls then. Don't worry(yet) about much more structure than "Mayor toadstool's daughter got kidnapped"
2020-08-04 12:25:11 kevinsan I'm kinda surprised nobody's come up with a 'Scratch' equivalent of RPGs, for parents who were never brought up on this kind of thing
2020-08-04 12:25:51 kevinsan I mean, it's imagination that's the key thing here, and kids have that in spadefuls
2020-08-04 12:26:36 djph hah, yep
2020-08-04 12:28:14 kevinsan for my daughter, if it's spoken then it's real in her mind. When she hatched a dragon egg that she found in the fireplace of an abandoned house, she was truly delighted.
2020-08-04 12:30:14 djph "roll initiative" // "everyone's dead"
2020-08-04 12:31:38 kevinsan lol, that sounds like a lot of tears in my house
2020-08-04 12:31:58 djph it's how last week's session went for us
2020-08-04 12:51:52 kensanata My thinking is that there are a gazillion games that are different from D&D, but they haver a very, very small number of followers.
2020-08-04 12:52:18 kensanata For example, for kids below 10, I'd probably start with something based on Lasers & Feelings.
2020-08-04 12:52:33 kensanata Just a page or two, and that's it.
2020-08-04 12:52:48 kensanata Or, going further, a game like Lady Blackbird.
2020-08-04 12:53:37 kensanata https://alexschroeder.ch/wiki/2019-01-05_Lasers_%26_Feelings
2020-08-04 12:55:14 kensanata https://alexschroeder.ch/wiki/2011-08-23_Lady_Blackbird
2020-08-04 12:56:48 kensanata Also, still not a lot of rules, Risus. http://www.risusiverse.com/
2020-08-04 12:59:19 kensanata And if they're reaching 10 or 12, I guess I'd use the Basic D&D games from the eighties. Something like my own variant, or Moldvay, Marsh & Cook's Basic/Expert D&D, or the recent rewriting by Gavin, Old School Essentials. https://necroticgnome.com/collections/old-school-essentials
2020-08-04 13:01:29 kensanata At that "difficulty level", there's also Basic Fantasy https://www.basicfantasy.org/ (which is more inspired by D&D 3.5), or the translation of the German Dungeon Slayers.
2020-08-04 13:02:19 kensanata I'd probably stay away from games marketed for kids, but I don't know, maybe that's something you want to try. I wouldn't be much help with that.
2020-08-04 13:04:03 kensanata Anyway, kevinsan, the RPG tag on my blog is... 1282 pages.
2020-08-04 13:04:08 kensanata :D
2020-08-04 13:07:11 jan interesting discussion! my 11yo son wants to start with D&D
2020-08-04 13:09:52 kensanata jan: Does your son prefer Norwegian to English or something like that? That's definitely something to consider.
2020-08-04 13:11:08 kensanata Otherwise, I'd simply get Moldvay's Basic D&D from 1981. It has elves, dwarves, halflings, magic users, fighters, thieves, red dragons, orcs, a cover showing a dragon and a ton of treasure, it say's D&D on the cover, and yet it's simpler than D&D 5E.
2020-08-04 13:11:15 jan english is ok, I think
2020-08-04 13:11:43 ⚡ jan => commute
2020-08-04 13:12:01 kensanata https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/110274/DD-Basic-Set-Rulebook-B-X-ed-Basic
2020-08-04 13:14:07 kensanata Or the new rewrite, this is the free no-art version: https://necroticgnome.com/collections/old-school-essentials/products/old-school-essentials-basic-rules
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2020-08-04 13:51:08 kevinsan kensanata, that's a goldmine of info, thanks! Lasers & Feelings does look like a great place to start. I feel like my 11 year old could run that for his younger siblings.
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2020-08-04 13:58:39 kensanata Yeah!
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2020-08-04 14:16:27 kensanata https://writingalchemy.net/resources/lasers-and-feelings-hacks/ if you ever need a different genre...
2020-08-04 15:38:55 makeworld rmgr: Check out gemlog.blue
2020-08-04 15:39:39 makeworld I submitted Amfora to HN on a whim, we'll see how it goes lol
2020-08-04 15:43:24 lukee ah good luck with that :-)
2020-08-04 15:44:40 lukee HN fanboys: "Gemini is unnecessary, we already have the web..."
2020-08-04 15:46:02 admicos From the limited exposure I had to HN, the general question there seemed to be "but how can it money"
2020-08-04 15:46:33 lukee Still there are usually a few grumpy techno-skeptics lurking there who get it
2020-08-04 15:46:54 admicos True
2020-08-04 15:47:10 lukee Its how I heard about it
2020-08-04 15:47:25 kensanata I wonder whether I should add a HTML form to edit Gemini Wiki pages. Would that make it an instant hit, gaining me fame and glory, or would this just be meh, lost sight of the Gemini vision, caved in, nobody needs that...
2020-08-04 15:48:46 lukee kensanata: I think there is merit in being able to edit gemini pages within the client
2020-08-04 15:49:17 lukee but can we use Gemini as the front end instead?
2020-08-04 15:49:35 kensanata lukee: well, where do you stand on the Titan debate?
2020-08-04 15:49:49 lukee I like the idea, not convinced of the implementation
2020-08-04 15:49:57 kensanata I've integrated it into the Gemini client I use, and I use it a lot.
2020-08-04 15:50:42 kensanata But what I'm not going to do is typing my posts into the prompt for a 10.
2020-08-04 15:50:42 lukee My impression is it makes too many assumptions about the type of end point it talks to
2020-08-04 15:51:36 kensanata Well... we don't seem to have much else, as far as I can tell, except for sed commands for 10 prompts, or simply appending text using 10 prompts...
2020-08-04 15:51:43 lukee one thought I had was is there a way to wire up a page editor to one of the preformatted areas on a page
2020-08-04 15:52:21 lukee then use an in-page link to "submit" the edited content of the region back to the server
2020-08-04 15:52:56 lukee Agree with you about the 10 input type - not adequate for this kind of thing
2020-08-04 15:52:57 kensanata Hm. At first glance that seems even more complicated?
2020-08-04 15:53:22 lukee the advantage is that it could be intergrated with the displayed page
2020-08-04 15:53:30 kensanata And how would "submit" be different from something like Titan?
2020-08-04 15:53:33 lukee like a text area on a web page: edit this page
2020-08-04 15:53:41 kensanata Hm.
2020-08-04 15:53:43 lukee possibly similar
2020-08-04 15:54:08 lukee but my impression is titan assumes the content is file based
2020-08-04 15:54:28 kensanata I don't think so... where does that impression come from?
2020-08-04 15:54:59 kensanata Like, is a PUT request on the web "file based"?
2020-08-04 15:55:02 lukee I should read the "spec" again - what is the best reference?
2020-08-04 15:55:36 lukee For example can you use titan to submit content to a CGI end point?
2020-08-04 15:55:43 lukee with query params in the uri?
2020-08-04 15:56:06 kensanata I'd probably start with something like this: https://transjovian.org:1965/page/Writing
2020-08-04 15:56:42 kensanata The OpenSSL section is basically the protocol exposed, so as a developer, I find that to be the most concise because I can experiment immediately.
2020-08-04 15:57:13 kensanata https://communitywiki.org/wiki/Titan has a bit more explanation.
2020-08-04 15:57:26 lukee this links through to gemini://communitywiki.org:1966/Titan but I can seem to get there
2020-08-04 15:58:09 lukee I'll look at that community wiki page on http
2020-08-04 15:59:00 lukee that page states: "There is no question mark after the URL" which to me suggests a rather limited type of end point
2020-08-04 15:59:10 kensanata Uh?
2020-08-04 15:59:26 lukee so for example, if your resources come out of a CMS/database with a query string
2020-08-04 15:59:55 lukee thus: gemini://domain/path/to/endpoint?id=XYZ - how do you write to it?
2020-08-04 15:59:56 kensanata If that's the only aspect that's holding you back, let's add a questionmark. But I feel that the RFC itself has no opinions about the semantics. We can do it like the web, but we don't have to.
2020-08-04 16:00:36 kensanata gemini://domain/path/to/endpoint;mime=text/pain;size=5;token=hello?id=XYZ
2020-08-04 16:00:45 kensanata titan://domain/path/to/endpoint;mime=text/pain;size=5;token=hello?id=XYZ (titan scheme of course)
2020-08-04 16:01:09 kensanata The mime=text/pain;size=5;token=hello parameters are qualifying the "endpoint" resource.
2020-08-04 16:01:45 kensanata But yeah, if we're using the URL to communicate with a server, then it makes sense to assume that there will always be some URLs that cannot be used.
2020-08-04 16:02:00 lukee also I worry about a parameterised URL - these tend to get passed around and cached
2020-08-04 16:02:13 kensanata Like, you could ask me: what happens if I use gemini://domain/path/to/endpoint;mime=text/gemini to serve my page, how do I edit that?
2020-08-04 16:02:38 kensanata And then I can't give you a good answer because we can't both be using the URL to communicate with the server without any conflict, ever.
2020-08-04 16:02:44 lukee like the security token inside the URI - just seems awkward to me
2020-08-04 16:03:35 kensanata It seems to me that in a TLS world we don't have the sort of web caching without a man-in-the-middle attack happening.
2020-08-04 16:04:14 lukee think about the contrast with HTTP post - the metadata is not part of the uri
2020-08-04 16:04:21 kensanata In terms of security it's just like using HTTP basic auth, except that we're storing the info in the URL. The alternative is what my previous Gemini Write proposal was...
2020-08-04 16:04:50 kensanata Sure, we can just use HTTP POST.
2020-08-04 16:05:09 lukee normally I expect that the URI is the location of the resource in traditional terms
2020-08-04 16:05:32 lukee what was your Gemini Write proposal?
2020-08-04 16:06:42 kensanata I have trouble understanding "the URI is the location of the resource in traditional terms" – how do GET requests work, then?
2020-08-04 16:07:00 lukee you just ask for the resource at the URI, it is sent to you
2020-08-04 16:07:24 kensanata https://alexschroeder.ch/wiki/2020-06-04_Gemini_Upload
2020-08-04 16:07:31 lukee but it refers to the persistent location of the resource
2020-08-04 16:08:04 kensanata I don't know. http://example.org/wiki?search=foo
2020-08-04 16:08:38 kensanata "the persistent location of the resource" doesn't seem to apply to such a program
2020-08-04 16:08:47 lukee I think I prefer that type of approach to titan
2020-08-04 16:09:24 lukee yes it does, the url you gave refers to the resource that is the search results for foo
2020-08-04 16:09:39 lukee its not to say the resource is static
2020-08-04 16:10:30 lukee gemini+write seems closer to HTTP POST, and does not have cacheable metadata
2020-08-04 16:10:31 kensanata How about you make a counter proposal in a reply to https://lists.orbitalfox.eu/archives/gemini/2020/002034.html
2020-08-04 16:11:13 lukee I should do... but it seems to raise quite a few hackles when this is brought up (I dont understand why myself)
2020-08-04 16:11:21 kensanata There, you'll also find the summary of Sean Conner's proposal.
2020-08-04 16:11:44 kensanata I don't know about hackles. For the most time, it seems that nobody seems to care other than me,
2020-08-04 16:12:21 kensanata and I'd love to simply see one other person write some code that actually works, in a real scenario.
2020-08-04 16:12:52 kensanata I'm convinced I could change my implementations quicker than it is taking me to convince anybody to do anything, haha.
2020-08-04 16:13:11 lukee good on you!
2020-08-04 16:13:51 kensanata My impression is that many people don't want to invest the energy to code something up, but they are also not happy with what has been proposed, so they're waiting for the perfect proposal to appear from somewhere, but that's never going to happen.
2020-08-04 16:13:59 kensanata Unless we do it.
2020-08-04 16:15:04 kensanata Anyway, gotto feed some rodents in the neighbourhood. Talk to you later.
2020-08-04 16:15:36 lukee ok no problem. I agree with what you said there BTW
2020-08-04 16:15:38 kevinsan i think embracing other protocols to do what's needed is the sensible thing to do, with least friction and best leverage of existing tech
2020-08-04 16:17:18 lukee kevinsan: and also to have the benefit of the wider cultural and conceptual debugging
2020-08-04 16:17:26 kevinsan gemini's gopher-level simplicity is its strength. something that crossed my mind was to run a simplified HTTP server on port 1993 (when was http invented, i forget)
2020-08-04 16:17:55 lukee my understanding is gopher and http came out more or less the same time
2020-08-04 16:18:35 kevinsan the real point of gemini for me is to be separate from ports 80/443 that have been hijacked by companies exploiting the hoi polloi :)
2020-08-04 16:19:29 companion_cube http1.1 is pretty neat
2020-08-04 16:20:13 kevinsan so, HTTP is a great protocol that's had its home trashed - one benefit of running on a separate port with fewer 'features' means that it is less interesting to hostile parties.
2020-08-04 16:22:46 lukee if it is a success, there will be hostile parties
2020-08-04 16:23:01 lukee but hopefully just a few bad bots running round
2020-08-04 16:23:26 kevinsan there's been so much talk about how to 'enhance' gemini for various purposes, and it seems needlessly destructive of what gemini is when there are other ways to achieve the goals.
2020-08-04 16:23:34 lukee the trick is to consciously stop at the "sweet spot"
2020-08-04 16:23:55 lukee but there is not a full consensus where that sweet spot is
2020-08-04 16:24:20 companion_cube the subset that dillo supports? :D
2020-08-04 16:24:28 kevinsan on bots, i think we should welcome them. I believe that the recent bot fiasco was some bad code - the intention was probably not hostile, just duff code
2020-08-04 16:24:58 lukee but there will be bad bots, even if some script kiddie trying to have a "laugh"
2020-08-04 16:25:18 lukee its a measure of success to be attacked
2020-08-04 16:25:28 kevinsan so, someone tried to do something and messed up. like we all do. i think hostility towards bots is rooted in the hostile-web
2020-08-04 16:26:00 kevinsan by the way, when i mention 'hostile' web, I mean ad-tech and tracking, and everything that comes from it.
2020-08-04 16:27:25 kevinsan they hate bots (that are not their own!) because they screw up their stats and data. So, anything automated gets bad mouthed by these people. Google, of all companies, does this. Astonishingly hypocritical.
2020-08-04 16:27:55 lukee come and embrace Googlebot - he/she/it loves you!
2020-08-04 16:28:32 lukee its an interesting stance for Gemini to be bot-friendly
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2020-08-04 16:29:15 thewetcrab Hello, where can I learn to write gemini markup?
2020-08-04 16:29:25 kevinsan bots are wonderful - gemini is so light that 1000 bot requests == ~1 typical CNN page.
2020-08-04 16:29:56 lukee thewetcrab: see under resources for beginners on gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/docs/
2020-08-04 16:30:30 thewetcrab is there a HTTP version of the docs *jeeehz for give me for even asking that*
2020-08-04 16:31:24 lukee thewetcrab: here is a web proxy of the same page: https://portal.mozz.us/gemini/gemini.circumlunar.space/docs/
2020-08-04 16:31:31 thewetcrab Thanks!
2020-08-04 16:32:07 thewetcrab I really like that gemini is trying to be respectful to users!
2020-08-04 16:32:19 thewetcrab Gemini don't have websites they have capsules ...... is that correct?
2020-08-04 16:32:19 lukee kevinsan: you're right, but many of the servers are running on small machines like rpi
2020-08-04 16:32:28 thewetcrab I have a rpi :)
2020-08-04 16:32:35 lukee me too
2020-08-04 16:33:00 thewetcrab What do you run on yours?
2020-08-04 16:33:04 lukee capsules/sites/gemsites/servers
2020-08-04 16:33:15 thewetcrab gemsites - I like that "_
2020-08-04 16:33:15 lukee molly brown
2020-08-04 16:33:29 thewetcrab molly brown? What is that?
2020-08-04 16:33:35 kevinsan see how many requests/second you can get on a pi - it's still likely to be absurdly fast (depending on SD card type etc)
2020-08-04 16:33:47 lukee molly brown is one of the gemini servers
2020-08-04 16:35:01 thewetcrab Just reading a post about the fear of missing out and how constantly pushing new content means people keep checking feeds.
2020-08-04 16:35:01 thewetcrab I'm thinking a head, but would this some how mean that gemsites only for instance push content on a 'Monday'?
2020-08-04 16:35:10 lukee kevinsan: yes you're right. I'm just naturally cautious about how hard these small servers and connections should be pushed
2020-08-04 16:35:34 thewetcrab for instance all new articles and information gets pushed on a certain day?
2020-08-04 16:35:53 thewetcrab I wish I could make sure I only got email on 1 day of the week. Then everyone saves their messages for the rest of the week.
2020-08-04 16:35:57 thewetcrab lololololol
2020-08-04 16:36:04 thewetcrab Not sure if I am being serious or silly!
2020-08-04 16:36:12 lukee people write whenever they feel like it. I think the point some are making is we have become addicted to constant content
2020-08-04 16:36:29 lukee email one day a week: bliss
2020-08-04 16:38:35 thewetcrab Yes I agree, I think I am one of those people who checks far to often. Now I am aware of the dangers I try to minimize, but I am aware that the information is constantly flowing. I guess that then feeds my fear of FOMO ......
2020-08-04 16:38:53 thewetcrab I have to go shortly, but will you be here to discuss later lukee?
2020-08-04 16:40:37 thewetcrab does gemtext have any formatting options, (something like CSS?) or can it only be marked up in a HTML kinda way?
2020-08-04 16:40:38 lukee I do hang out here from time to time. If you dont come back soon, you might miss out ;-)
2020-08-04 16:40:45 thewetcrab I need to get myself a gembrowser.
2020-08-04 16:40:46 kensanata thewetcrab: Not really.
2020-08-04 16:40:54 thewetcrab ha ha thanks for that lukee :D
2020-08-04 16:41:08 thewetcrab Well, I think I'm going to split, but I will be back later :)
2020-08-04 16:41:23 kensanata thewetcrab: Well, if your client does something to make the content look nice it probably does the same thing to all the sites... the site's author is probably not in control.
2020-08-04 16:41:29 thewetcrab Thanks for answering my questions and guiding me on my gem journey :D
2020-08-04 16:42:12 thewetcrab When I was referring to styling I was referring to this page - https://christine.website/blog/gemini-web-fear-missing-out-2020-08-02
2020-08-04 16:42:24 thewetcrab I like the background colour, font colour, link colours etc
2020-08-04 16:42:46 kensanata I'm ... using a text browser right now! :D
2020-08-04 16:43:06 kensanata But I think I remember the site. So the answer is no, people cannot do this to their Gemini sites.
2020-08-04 16:43:16 lukee Different gemini clients have different formatting options. But usually it is in the control of the end user the look and feel to a certain degree
2020-08-04 16:45:02 lukee The author of that site (Cadey) has written a browser which renders content in a similar way - I think its called Majc or similar
2020-08-04 16:45:58 lukee gemini://cetacean.club/maj/majc.gmi
2020-08-04 16:46:24 thewetcrab The wrote their own browser?
2020-08-04 16:46:33 lukee A few of has have
2020-08-04 16:46:46 thewetcrab gee wow!
2020-08-04 16:46:55 thewetcrab I'm way out of my depth in that case!
2020-08-04 16:46:59 lukee this is mine (but Windows only) https://www.marmaladefoo.com/pages/geminaut
2020-08-04 16:47:13 lukee not at all, you're very welcome
2020-08-04 16:47:47 kevinsan thewetcrab, I have not written a browser. you're not alone lol
2020-08-04 16:48:06 baschdel has quit (Ping timeout: 120 seconds)
2020-08-04 16:48:08 thewetcrab I'll try GemiNaut later today.
2020-08-04 16:48:19 lukee others have built servers or server apps, or provide amazing content
2020-08-04 16:48:24 thewetcrab I can't wait to try to write my own gemsite
2020-08-04 16:48:41 thewetcrab Yeah, my skills are way lamer. I'm not a programmer or coder :/
2020-08-04 16:48:46 kevinsan on that subject lukee - the hover popup for preformatted text feels a bit annoying - does it add anything of value?
2020-08-04 16:48:47 lukee or even just publish a blog of what they are thinking about today
2020-08-04 16:49:11 thewetcrab Anyways. I have to go but hope to be back.
2020-08-04 16:49:19 thewetcrab Hope we get to connect again lukee :)
2020-08-04 16:49:25 kevinsan thewetcrab, how much other tech lets you moan to your browser vendor and have them respond?
2020-08-04 16:49:26 lukee kevinsan: if the preformatted area has a label it will be shown
2020-08-04 16:49:27 thewetcrab Thanks for your help!
2020-08-04 16:49:43 lukee like this ```ascii art of a book
2020-08-04 16:49:44 thewetcrab ha ha yeah none kevinsan :')
2020-08-04 16:49:58 thewetcrab Bye for now!
2020-08-04 16:50:00 lukee but that is the default. Probably could turn it off if its not specified
2020-08-04 16:50:41 lukee vendor? - is someone going to pay me for this :)
2020-08-04 16:51:19 kevinsan haha, creative use of language for comedic effect. I'll post you some cash if you accept sterling.
2020-08-04 16:51:32 lukee yes please I'm UK based
2020-08-04 16:52:02 lukee maybe I'll put up a tip jar one day
2020-08-04 16:52:35 thewetcrab has quit (quit: https://web.tilde.chat - thelounge)
2020-08-04 16:52:58 kevinsan I tend not to bother with those - it's the commission that irks me. When I donated to Vim's charity, I moved sterling to a Euro account and did a bank transfer.
2020-08-04 16:53:10 kevinsan I have some mildly autistic traits.
2020-08-04 16:53:29 Cadey lukee: that's actually my terminal's colorscheme at work
2020-08-04 16:53:36 Cadey i use gruvbox dark on my terminals and website
2020-08-04 16:54:01 Cadey also http://cetacean.club/maj/majc.gmi <-- uses the same scheme
2020-08-04 16:54:30 lukee well you have an admirer of the design of it
2020-08-04 16:54:33 Cadey :D
2020-08-04 16:55:13 lukee I have no idea what gruvbox is
2020-08-04 16:55:41 Cadey https://github.com/morhetz/gruvbox
2020-08-04 16:56:18 lukee "retro groove colour scheme" :)
2020-08-04 16:56:40 kevinsan lukee, on the hover popup - do you actually find it useful? I ask because it obscures the meaningful text with text that's of no use to me.
2020-08-04 16:57:30 lukee I recall there was some discussion about using that space for an "alt text" or other meta description for the content
2020-08-04 16:57:49 lukee so it seemed not unreasonable to surface that to the user.
2020-08-04 16:58:50 lukee Sometimes I have no idea what people's ascii art is supposed to be - so it could help me :)
2020-08-04 16:59:57 ▬▬▶ acdw has joined #gemini
2020-08-04 17:00:05 lukee I might turn it off if there is no content to it
2020-08-04 17:00:51 kevinsan This is the page that I found it annoying on: gemini://tilde.black/users/brool/stoned.txt
2020-08-04 17:01:00 kevinsan it has some good ascii art though!
2020-08-04 17:03:21 acdw great ascii art on the stoned pages, esp brool's
2020-08-04 17:03:27 acdw really want to know how they made it lol
2020-08-04 17:03:57 lukee that is a tour de force of ascii art.
2020-08-04 17:03:57 kevinsan i cherish my ignorance on the subject - helps maintain the magic and awe
2020-08-04 17:05:18 acdw haha yes! I just do it what I'm sure is the hardest way possible -- text editor and just ... editing
2020-08-04 17:05:25 acdw it's time-intensive
2020-08-04 17:07:17 lukee kevinsan: next build of GemiNaut will only show the tooltip if it is non-empty. So the vast majority will have none
2020-08-04 17:07:36 admicos the only ascii "art" i've done is just copying what figlet gives me
2020-08-04 17:07:47 acdw lukee: you're talking about the ``` [alt-text] tooltip?
2020-08-04 17:07:52 acdw b/c that's a great feature
2020-08-04 17:08:21 lukee yes
2020-08-04 17:08:47 lukee kevinsan was suggesting there is no need to show the tooltip if the user did not provide any alt-text
2020-08-04 17:08:59 lukee but if it is provided it will still be shown
2020-08-04 17:09:45 lukee I think I agree if it was not specified, it seems a bit unecessary to show a tooltip with the default of "preformatted text"
2020-08-04 17:10:32 lukee [...] no need to show the tooltip if the *author* (not user!) [...]
2020-08-04 17:13:20 acdw awesome :) -- I agree with that as well
2020-08-04 17:13:43 acdw Here's a niche concern -- I'd really like a seperate, "verse" line type.
2020-08-04 17:14:17 lukee how would it be different to other line types?
2020-08-04 17:15:44 Cadey verse?
2020-08-04 17:15:55 Cadey like song/poetry verse?
2020-08-04 17:16:17 lukee so significant whitespace - why not use ```?
2020-08-04 17:17:07 lukee the only snag is the fixed width font maybe
2020-08-04 17:17:38 kensanata bouncepaw had an interesting idea that will have Solderpunk and maybe others spinning in orbit: use a type!
2020-08-04 17:17:47 kensanata ```;type=poetry
2020-08-04 17:17:52 lukee maybe some like their sonnets in teletype format
2020-08-04 17:18:11 kensanata ``` { just add CSS here! }
2020-08-04 17:18:26 lukee kensanata: yes there are no semantics for that space yet
2020-08-04 17:18:37 lukee you can put whatever you want
2020-08-04 17:18:50 kensanata Of course.
2020-08-04 17:19:03 kensanata Once again, first mover problem.
2020-08-04 17:19:15 kensanata But bouncepaw wrote this, brainstorming: gemini://tanelorn.city/~bouncepaw/gemlog/megapreformatted.gemini
2020-08-04 17:19:42 lukee how about this ```post;gemini+write://target/endpoint
2020-08-04 17:20:23 lukee then the client allows the user to edit the content of the region and submit it
2020-08-04 17:21:00 kensanata lukee: Interesting. Instead of serving the raw text for people to edit, you'd serve the raw text inside a ``` block, telling the client how to edit it?
2020-08-04 17:21:06 lukee yes
2020-08-04 17:21:38 lukee like a sort or minimal form - gemini style
2020-08-04 17:21:42 kensanata Hm.
2020-08-04 17:21:46 lukee or -> of
2020-08-04 17:22:09 kensanata Maybe something that's compatible with bouncepaw's idea, and generalisable: ```type=editable;gemini+write://target/endpoint
2020-08-04 17:22:09 lukee this is the classic wiki concept - edit the page within the client
2020-08-04 17:23:00 lukee that is nice
2020-08-04 17:23:05 kensanata I don't think that's the part that's the most important one (and I've written at least two wiki clients that work within Emacs without using the HTML interface)
2020-08-04 17:23:43 lukee suitable for a wider range of use cases as well
2020-08-04 17:23:57 lukee the advantage is the page context describes the purpose of the data
2020-08-04 17:24:18 acdw It doesn't need to be rendered in a pre-block, but it *does* need spacing and stuff
2020-08-04 17:24:24 acdw sorry had a work phone call
2020-08-04 17:24:58 acdw lukee hit it on the head -- significant whitespace & other considerations (wrapping should be indented), but no monospace
2020-08-04 17:25:05 acdw kensanata: YES
2020-08-04 17:25:06 acdw lol
2020-08-04 17:25:13 acdw not really that's anti-gemini
2020-08-04 17:25:21 kevinsan companion_cube, (from much earlier) yes Dillo looks like a good companion browser for HTTP stuff - can't see what subset it supports though.
2020-08-04 17:26:01 lukee acdw: well the author never gets to choose the font of the client anyway
2020-08-04 17:26:24 lukee and significant whitespace only works with monospace in my experience
2020-08-04 17:26:47 kensanata significant whitespace includes indents and linebreaks, though
2020-08-04 17:27:10 lukee so how is this different from ```?
2020-08-04 17:27:10 kensanata and for poetry, that is often enough
2020-08-04 17:27:23 kensanata poetry that looks like code is not the same
2020-08-04 17:27:38 lukee but the formatting is controlled by the client
2020-08-04 17:28:12 kensanata but if we don't agree on some things, then we're going to end up with clients where most of them render poetry like source code.
2020-08-04 17:28:13 lukee so I may decide I want to use fixed width font for everything
2020-08-04 17:28:21 companion_cube kevinsan: I'd guess all of http1.1, and a subset of html+css
2020-08-04 17:28:25 companion_cube wild guess tho
2020-08-04 17:28:30 kevinsan the client could decide in this case - recognizing it as prose could mean that leading spacing is mono, thereafter the text is proportional
2020-08-04 17:28:59 lukee kevinsan: some poetry relies on inline alignment
2020-08-04 17:29:07 kensanata Sure. But somebody else might say: we need a way to indent lines and insert linebreaks without making this indistringuishable from source code. How would you solve it?
2020-08-04 17:29:07 kevinsan companion_cube, i'll have to read up on http1.1 - guess I'll need the internet archive lol
2020-08-04 17:29:12 lukee inline -> in-line
2020-08-04 17:29:23 companion_cube kevinsan: wut, no need, the RFCs are online
2020-08-04 17:29:44 companion_cube it's also good fun to implement, although it's significantly more work than gemini (TLS excepted)
2020-08-04 17:29:59 acdw lukee: fair point
2020-08-04 17:30:06 Cadey the rust book has a section about parsing HTTP/1.1
2020-08-04 17:30:09 lukee what distinguishes source code from other content?
2020-08-04 17:30:27 acdw I was 99.5% joking really, it wouldn't ever be acceptaed
2020-08-04 17:30:46 kensanata in my experience of reading poetry, I have never seen it printed using monospaced fonts
2020-08-04 17:30:48 lukee its an interesting discussion, but yes you're probably right
2020-08-04 17:31:00 kevinsan companion_cube, have you any http1.1 implementation that you can donate?
2020-08-04 17:31:10 acdw a lot of that instagram poetry is monospaced -- typewriter font
2020-08-04 17:31:19 companion_cube https://github.com/c-cube/tiny_httpd the one I wrote for OCaml (a server)
2020-08-04 17:31:30 acdw I think it's already pretty much been said that text/gemini isn't getting any more line types
2020-08-04 17:31:32 companion_cube I think clients might actually be harder, because they have to support more things in the wild in practice
2020-08-04 17:31:40 acdw tho I still haven't written up my :^) line type proposal
2020-08-04 17:32:01 companion_cube http1.1 is also pretty powerful already, you can stream things, for example
2020-08-04 17:32:02 kensanata acdw: take a look at bouncepaw's idea of annotating ``` blocks
2020-08-04 17:32:05 lukee companion_cube: what do you have in mind?
2020-08-04 17:32:06 companion_cube so it can be used to download big things
2020-08-04 17:32:31 companion_cube lukee: nothing in particular, I just find it interesting to reimplement this kind of things
2020-08-04 17:32:41 kensanata acdw: if you get enough client authors to recognize something like ```type=poetry it would work, no new line type required
2020-08-04 17:32:42 companion_cube (also, I do use this thing as an embedded server)
2020-08-04 17:32:45 kevinsan that's beautiful companion_cube
2020-08-04 17:33:27 Cadey i'm gonna put my rust gemtext builder/parser in its own crate
2020-08-04 17:33:48 acdw kensanata: this is true facts
2020-08-04 17:33:56 ⚡ lukee struggles to work out which conversation is which
2020-08-04 17:33:57 Cadey i'm gonna call it gemtext
2020-08-04 17:33:58 acdw feels like a mutiny lol
2020-08-04 17:34:06 ⚡ acdw does the same thing as lukee
2020-08-04 17:34:13 Cadey i should add preformatted comments to the AST
2020-08-04 17:34:15 acdw it is quite difficult
2020-08-04 17:34:28 admicos we should just tag all messages with the topic like #whichconversationiswhich
2020-08-04 17:34:36 kevinsan the confusion is part of the charm of IRC
2020-08-04 17:34:48 lukee this is a problem of success at least
2020-08-04 17:34:49 companion_cube still not worse than slack
2020-08-04 17:35:44 kevinsan admicos, we don't use hashtags in here. it's the IRC equivalent of farting at a wedding, during the vows
2020-08-04 17:35:51 acdw yeah I kind of like it -- it's like everyone is talking at one time
2020-08-04 17:35:52 admicos kevinsan: ouch
2020-08-04 17:36:02 acdw #thathurt
2020-08-04 17:36:06 companion_cube #hashtag #rebel
2020-08-04 17:36:08 lukee it does lighten the mood though
2020-08-04 17:36:12 lukee #fart
2020-08-04 17:36:23 acdw oh going to that channel
2020-08-04 17:36:53 companion_cube 💨
2020-08-04 17:36:59 lukee haha
2020-08-04 17:37:07 kevinsan haha, what a find!
2020-08-04 17:38:14 acdw #possiblythebestemoji
2020-08-04 17:38:27 acdw I always feel like "emoji" singular should be "emojo"
2020-08-04 17:38:28 Cadey #hashtag
2020-08-04 17:38:44 companion_cube 🐘💨
2020-08-04 17:38:52 companion_cube (it's not even there for farts, so sad)
2020-08-04 17:38:54 companion_cube https://emojipedia.org/dashing-away/
2020-08-04 17:39:06 Cadey acdw: emoji is treated as a mass moun in english, much like you can't say you have one money
2020-08-04 17:39:11 Cadey but then again
2020-08-04 17:39:14 admicos emoji should just be singular, the plural should be "emoja"
2020-08-04 17:39:20 Cadey because it's a loanword from japanese
2020-08-04 17:39:25 Cadey everything's fucked
2020-08-04 17:39:37 lukee this is the pleasure of language
2020-08-04 17:39:37 admicos loan words kill language and you can't say otherwise
2020-08-04 17:39:41 Cadey (japanese doesn't inflect nouns for plurality)
2020-08-04 17:39:47 lukee disagree completely about loan words
2020-08-04 17:40:04 admicos i should've put a /s
2020-08-04 17:40:14 lukee oops
2020-08-04 17:40:18 Cadey i'll send you a courriel about it later
2020-08-04 17:40:18 admicos no it's fine
2020-08-04 17:40:57 lukee I'll keep my schadenfreude to mysefl
2020-08-04 17:41:01 lukee myself
2020-08-04 17:41:07 kensanata This is kindergarten.
2020-08-04 17:41:26 acdw emojum
2020-08-04 17:41:51 acdw emoji, emojas, emojarum,
2020-08-04 17:42:07 companion_cube kevinsan: 🤵👰💨[…]🏩
2020-08-04 17:42:29 acdw Cadey: a word being a loaner hasn't stopped English from inflecting it Enlgish-style before
2020-08-04 17:43:07 Cadey acdw: you're expecting language to be consistent
2020-08-04 17:43:08 companion_cube you should see how english verbs are used in french, they're treated as french verbs, it's funny
2020-08-04 17:43:11 Cadey english isn't lojban
2020-08-04 17:43:24 Cadey companion_cube: I live in quebec, it gets really weird
2020-08-04 17:43:41 companion_cube oh, thus "courriel", heh
2020-08-04 17:43:59 acdw hahaha Cadey :D
2020-08-04 17:44:16 Cadey companion_cube: subtle metalinguistic jokes are how i've survived
2020-08-04 17:44:17 acdw it's funny because I'm an English major through and through, I love how inconsistent language can be, esp. Enlgish
2020-08-04 17:44:19 companion_cube sacristie de tabernacle
2020-08-04 17:44:20 Cadey life is pain
2020-08-04 17:44:28 acdw one day lojban will be within my grasp
2020-08-04 17:44:28 Cadey get bready for it
2020-08-04 17:44:33 companion_cube are you a native english speaker?
2020-08-04 17:44:48 acdw omg that is the funny
2020-08-04 17:44:51 Cadey acdw: ko viska http://ldlework.com/projects/cards/la-karda/index.html
2020-08-04 17:45:10 acdw must decide: lojban or toki pona first?
2020-08-04 17:45:37 Cadey i did toki pona first, but i've found lojban more practically useful
2020-08-04 17:45:52 acdw that makes sense, more words
2020-08-04 17:47:46 kevinsan companion_cube, I had to paste that into libreoffice to get it to show - I agree, from my experience honesty is the most successful strategy in a relationship. farts and all.
2020-08-04 17:48:49 companion_cube I definitely agree
2020-08-04 17:49:10 kensanata I liked toki pona
2020-08-04 17:49:55 acdw it's *neat*
2020-08-04 17:50:03 ▬▬▶ xj9 has joined #gemini
2020-08-04 17:50:08 acdw I got permission to gemify some toki pona stuff, Just have to get around to it
2020-08-04 17:50:42 kensanata Also, I like the simple font, and Maya inspired font.
2020-08-04 17:51:16 acdw oh yes, those are cool. I would *really* like to ascii-ify the characters to go along with the gemified glossary
2020-08-04 17:51:32 acdw maybe I'll post on the ML about getting some help with that
2020-08-04 17:51:37 acdw kensanata would you be interested?
2020-08-04 17:52:01 kensanata I don't know what "ascii-ify the characters to go along with the gemified glossary" means...
2020-08-04 17:52:33 lukee why not just link to an image of the characters if not in unicode yet?
2020-08-04 17:52:43 acdw hm I could do that lukee
2020-08-04 17:52:51 acdw but I like the inline nature of ascii art
2020-08-04 17:53:00 ⚡ lukee shudders
2020-08-04 17:53:05 acdw hold on a min I'll show ya
2020-08-04 17:53:27 Cadey i'm considering making a little dictionary for toki pona, i have the whole dictionary in json somewhere
2020-08-04 17:53:33 Cadey in gemspace that is
2020-08-04 17:53:55 kensanata I did a spell checking thing... :)
2020-08-04 17:54:02 kensanata Not in Gemini
2020-08-04 17:54:14 companion_cube toki pona over gemini
2020-08-04 17:54:17 companion_cube peak hipsterism
2020-08-04 17:54:21 acdw \__|__/
2020-08-04 17:54:21 acdw | \_/ |
2020-08-04 17:54:21 acdw \_____/
2020-08-04 17:54:26 acdw oh oops
2020-08-04 17:54:28 kensanata Ah!
2020-08-04 17:54:32 kensanata Oh wow.
2020-08-04 17:54:36 acdw \__|__/
2020-08-04 17:54:36 acdw / \
2020-08-04 17:54:36 acdw | \_/ |
2020-08-04 17:54:36 acdw \_____/
2020-08-04 17:54:40 acdw anyway you get the idea
2020-08-04 17:54:56 acdw companion_cube: lol
2020-08-04 17:55:02 acdw Cadey: I support that yes
2020-08-04 17:55:05 lukee not my cup of tea, but each to their own
2020-08-04 17:55:18 acdw fair fair
2020-08-04 17:55:35 acdw Now I'm considering buying a toki pona domain... but maybe not
2020-08-04 17:55:40 acdw just for gemini obviously
2020-08-04 17:55:58 lukee I guess the problem is the language glyphs are not in unicode?
2020-08-04 17:56:03 kensanata Nope
2020-08-04 17:56:12 Cadey Well teeeeeechinically they are
2020-08-04 17:56:17 lukee Is there a charset they are in - you dont have to serve utf-8?
2020-08-04 17:56:24 Cadey but they're using the conlang astral plane area
2020-08-04 17:56:33 acdw oh no way, that's awesome lool
2020-08-04 17:56:34 Cadey and that's not universally interpreted
2020-08-04 17:56:39 acdw so like, Unifont has em? maybe?
2020-08-04 17:56:41 kensanata acdw: You can have a wiki space on transjovian.org... either transjovian.org/toki or toki.transjovian.org or something like that
2020-08-04 17:56:56 lukee astral plane: always makes me think of astral projection
2020-08-04 17:57:10 Cadey
2020-08-04 17:57:26 Cadey That's from the Lojban part of the conlang astral plane of unicode
2020-08-04 17:57:28 acdw kensanata: :D awesome
2020-08-04 17:57:32 acdw I'll email you later
2020-08-04 17:57:35 Cadey (Specifically zbalermorna)
2020-08-04 17:57:56 Cadey acdw: I'd doubt it
2020-08-04 17:57:57 acdw haha I get the little boxes
2020-08-04 17:58:17 acdw Cadey yeah probably. Honestly the characters in toki pona would be hard to do
2020-08-04 17:58:24 acdw in little character sized boxes
2020-08-04 17:59:51 acdw okay bye yall, it lunch time
2020-08-04 17:59:51 acdw o/
2020-08-04 17:59:52 lukee can anyone send a pointer to what these look like in real life?
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2020-08-04 18:00:11 lukee I just get tofu boxes for the characters above
2020-08-04 18:00:34 Cadey That's my point lol
2020-08-04 18:01:54 lukee I found this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toki_Pona
2020-08-04 18:02:05 lukee looks like old maya script
2020-08-04 18:04:01 lukee I can see how conlangs open up a rabbit hole to dive into
2020-08-04 18:06:25 lukee if I may perhaps drag the subject back to gemini...
2020-08-04 18:07:09 lukee I was thinking what other kinds of Gemini clients could we imagine if we let our imaginations run?
2020-08-04 18:07:16 kevinsan companion_cube, does ocaml compile to native code, or does it depend on a separate runtime?
2020-08-04 18:07:49 lukee for example we have graphical, console and an auditory browser
2020-08-04 18:08:43 companion_cube kevinsan: it compiles to native code, but there's a GC
2020-08-04 18:08:47 companion_cube (more or less like, say, Go)
2020-08-04 18:09:04 lukee I was thinking recently of a sort of menu based browser to navigate up and down the folders of a media server
2020-08-04 18:09:44 kevinsan what's the resident footprint of your server when running?
2020-08-04 18:11:14 lukee that you could operate with a single thumb on a mobile phone
2020-08-04 18:11:50 companion_cube 24MB on this machine
2020-08-04 18:14:06 companion_cube (with a bunch of sqlite and stuff)
2020-08-04 18:14:59 Cadey wow
2020-08-04 18:15:05 Cadey the lord of the rings book has like
2020-08-04 18:15:10 Cadey 4 forewords and 3 prologues
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2020-08-04 21:54:52 easeout the lord of the rings is a lot, in many ways
2020-08-04 22:03:30 @tomasino return of the king ends like halfway through
2020-08-04 22:03:37 @tomasino and the second half is the start of the 35 endings
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2020-08-04 22:10:44 djph heh
2020-08-04 22:11:01 djph Cadey: just wait til you get to Two Towers
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2020-08-04 23:07:18 easeout starting lotr = wow look at everything they cut from the movies
2020-08-04 23:07:37 easeout tom *who*?
2020-08-04 23:09:55 easeout and why is everyone singing
2020-08-04 23:10:14 easeout i hope the next reboot is a weird elvish musical.
2020-08-04 23:22:43 login lord of the rings needs to be a 10+ season tv series
2020-08-04 23:23:05 kevinsan am i alone in thinking the lotr was a tedious slog? I got to the end of the first book and just found that I couldn't give a crap what happened next.
2020-08-04 23:23:23 easeout nah you're not alone
2020-08-04 23:23:43 easeout i find it hard to reread as an adult. though when i was younger i enjoyed it a lot more
2020-08-04 23:23:56 kevinsan i feel comforted by that response
2020-08-04 23:24:07 easeout i have low patience for writing that doesn't get to the point, and tolkien is just not about that life
2020-08-04 23:24:35 easeout can't read adams anymore either. too twisty
2020-08-04 23:25:57 kevinsan i get that - moreso as i get older, though i have never read much fiction - it's rarely worth the effort. Kafka is quite a compelling author
2020-08-04 23:29:50 kevinsan i think the lotr films could have made the books interesting, but they were just a CGI w*nkathon - dark scenes, noise, and endless cliches.
2020-08-04 23:30:21 kevinsan i say endless, i turned off long before the end :)
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2020-08-04 23:38:00 @tomasino The council of Elrond is long and boring. Picks up after that
2020-08-04 23:38:38 easeout you can't skip the lord of the rings movies. the memes will pay off forever
2020-08-04 23:39:32 companion_cube they're taking the hobbits to isengard?
2020-08-04 23:39:39 kevinsan lol, i am blissfully unaware of the meaning of any lotr memes, nor star wars for that matter, not game of thrones.
2020-08-04 23:40:00 companion_cube do you like any form of video entertainment? :)
2020-08-04 23:40:01 Cadey kevinsan: but does this sentence make you breathe manually?
2020-08-04 23:40:06 kevinsan if this were real life, i'd possibly be stoned to death
2020-08-04 23:40:36 companion_cube (what's the relation with marijuana?)
2020-08-04 23:41:04 kevinsan i think the only video entertainment I enjoy atm is satire
2020-08-04 23:41:58 easeout to isengard! to isengard!
2020-08-04 23:42:23 easeout one does not simply cat-tank into mordor.
2020-08-04 23:43:14 kevinsan wow, cat-tank had to be looked up. mega cute!
2020-08-04 23:43:25 easeout …precious
2020-08-04 23:44:37 kevinsan we do love our furry pathalogical killers. especially kittens. never has a pathalogical killer been sooo cute!
2020-08-04 23:49:58 kevinsan is there an existing sitemap generator for Gemini?
2020-08-05 00:20:27 easeout /usr/bin/tree ;D
2020-08-05 00:35:48 kevinsan ha, close. i actually did just use 'find' in a bash script. gemini://gemini.susa.net/sitemap_script.gmi
2020-08-05 00:37:25 easeout cool!
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2020-08-05 07:26:44 epoch btw, I'm abusing URI syntax and gemini clients lack of using fragments to make for compact links
2020-08-05 07:27:38 epoch gemini://some.server/link#short_description
2020-08-05 07:32:02 epoch !c DERP=aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa;echo $DERP
2020-08-05 07:32:08 epoch !c export DERP=aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa;echo $DERP
2020-08-05 07:32:16 epoch wrong channel. derp
2020-08-05 07:34:43 kensanata and yet, it looks strangely on-topic
2020-08-05 08:16:14 jan ;-)
2020-08-05 08:35:34 calmbit i managed to finally actually wrangle SSL into working and managed to make my first successful connection w/ gemini!
2020-08-05 08:47:45 rmgr Congrats!
2020-08-05 08:56:34 kensanata Yay!
2020-08-05 08:57:55 calmbit feels like i'm actually accomplishing something, even if I've got a long ways to go :)
2020-08-05 08:58:23 kensanata Using bouncepaw's idea of extending ``` blocks using type annotation, here's a proof-of-concept for type=poetry in HTML: https://transjovian.org:1965/test/page/Haiku%20Collection – and probably no effect in your Gemini client: gemini://transjovian.org/test/page/Haiku%20Collection
2020-08-05 08:58:50 kensanata calmbit: What sort of client are you working on?
2020-08-05 08:59:32 calmbit probably nothing that hasn't already been done before, but just a little thing in C/ncurses :)
2020-08-05 09:00:05 kensanata Well, the point of the protocol's simplicity was that everybody and their dog could write their own servers and clients.
2020-08-05 09:00:19 kensanata As far as I can tell: mission accomplished! 🚀 🚀
2020-08-05 09:02:05 calmbit absolutely! SSL isn't the easiest thing to get conclusive documentation on, but everything aside from that is beautiful
2020-08-05 09:02:27 kensanata calmbit: Wait until you get to client certificates... 😢
2020-08-05 09:02:48 calmbit honestly when I first found gemini i just plain fell in love with it, cuz it's pretty much the type of platform that I've been searching for in terms of raw simplicty
2020-08-05 09:03:18 calmbit client certifcates scare me, the fact that they have so little documentation available 😅
2020-08-05 09:03:33 calmbit but the idea itself is beautiful
2020-08-05 09:03:36 kensanata It took me a while to understand that Markdown was not the pinnacle of text formatting...
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2020-08-05 09:51:05 @tomasino Thanks for adding annotations to your preformatted blocks. Accessibility is important
2020-08-05 09:57:04 @tomasino Reading bouncepaws gemlog, I disagree with the way they're using the alt text block to extend preformatted blocks with different semantic meaning
2020-08-05 09:57:21 @tomasino I do appreciate the inclusion of alt text though
2020-08-05 09:59:07 kevinsan calmbit, from what I've seen so far, client certificates are no different from server certificates.
2020-08-05 09:59:40 kevinsan the server sends its certificate in the handshake, and may also request the client send one in turn
2020-08-05 10:00:26 kevinsan the library handles all this based on the configuration flags when initialising
2020-08-05 10:01:33 kevinsan what I have found useful is to read examples from both OpenSSL and GnuTLS - the slight differences in implementation help clarify.
2020-08-05 10:06:34 calmbit ah, okay - the concept seems simple enough, it's just that openssl's API tends to be really poorly documented
2020-08-05 10:06:51 calmbit and as a result i can't find nearly as much information about client cert generation/use as I can server cert stuff
2020-08-05 10:07:05 calmbit but i'll see what i can scrounge up, and I'll definitely try the differential doc scanning
2020-08-05 10:07:08 calmbit thank you for the pointer!
2020-08-05 10:08:57 kevinsan they're essentially the same. I can create a server certificate with a CN of say '*.susa.net', and a client certificate with a CN of 'Kevin'. Everything else is the same.
2020-08-05 10:10:58 kevinsan openssl is a nightmare - a big flat exhaustive API. absurdly inconsistent given the purpose. GnuTLS is much cleaner and better organised, but there seem to be fewer examples.
2020-08-05 10:42:00 calmbit openssl is probably one of the poorest documented "real world APIs" i've ever had to deal with
2020-08-05 10:42:16 calmbit i'd be upset if it didn't astound me that this was possible
2020-08-05 10:51:14 kevinsan calmbit, to be fair it's got a lot of baggage to deal with, and the concepts are esoteric at best. at least the source is there to glean from (Win32 anyone?)
2020-08-05 10:51:58 kevinsan This talk by Eric Rescorla of Mozilla is really interesting (and quite enlightening) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grRi-aFrbSE
2020-08-05 10:52:20 calmbit oh lord have mercy, win32 is a domain i have yet to ever enter with any real cognizance or hope
2020-08-05 10:52:30 calmbit i just pray i'm never face to face with it sans internet
2020-08-05 10:52:44 calmbit or i'll be just absolutely unendingly done
2020-08-05 10:53:57 calmbit i'll definitely take a gander at the talk, it looks incredibly interesting, even if some of the finer particulars might go over my head
2020-08-05 11:00:42 kevinsan lots went over my head but there's still a lot to glean. the guy talks *fast*, but pause helps on slides.
2020-08-05 11:45:14 kensanata calmbit: If you want, here's the blog post about my struggles with client certificates from the server side... https://alexschroeder.ch/wiki/2020-07-13_Client_Certificates_and_IO%3a%3aSocket%3a%3aSSL_(Perl)
2020-08-05 11:46:30 calmbit kensanata: ooh! a gemini wiki! this is actually super interesting
2020-08-05 11:46:43 calmbit i didn't even really think about that kind of use for gemini for some reason
2020-08-05 11:46:54 calmbit and thinking about it now, I love it
2020-08-05 11:47:16 kensanata calmbit: Until you realize that Gemini offers no way to edit a resource...
2020-08-05 11:47:40 kensanata calmbit: That is, twinlog has a Gemini wiki that uses sed commands to edit pages. :)
2020-08-05 11:48:14 kensanata calmbit: But my implementation requires a non-Gemini tool to upload pages.
2020-08-05 11:50:10 calmbit well, still - I'd consider Titan to be tangentially related enough to gemini enough to be inclusive
2020-08-05 11:50:18 calmbit I think it's a super clever pairing
2020-08-05 11:55:24 kensanata Thanks. :)
2020-08-05 12:01:31 calmbit the article is super informative, and I'll definitely be looking back to it when I get around to client certs
2020-08-05 12:01:41 kensanata Thanks!
2020-08-05 12:03:40 calmbit thanks for the writeup and congrats on getting everything figured out on that end! the project looks super cool and it's defintely turning gears in my head
2020-08-05 12:08:26 kensanata I'm always interested in talking about wiki stuff, and Gemini stuff, or both. :)
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2020-08-05 15:48:56 hannu Hi geminauts!
2020-08-05 15:49:38 hannu I just realized if I were to publish a post titled Ḩ̷̢͚̣̪̰̰̙͚͖̝͔͉̒̓͋̈́͑͑͐͜e̶̹͕̗̫͚̱̭͕̖͈̖̐̊͂͌̇͘͜ͅ ̸͚͇̘̖͕̙̅̈́̈́̽̄̐̑̿̔̌̑͝ͅÇ̴̘͓̽́̑̽͂o̷͍̯̲͈͝ṁ̸̡͈̝̩̫̜̫̭̱̝̭̹͂̍̐̐̄̿̄͆́̈̔̋͒̕ͅę̶̨͈̻̯̪̗̳͇̪̼̟͓́̅͜s̴̖̹͖͑̀͑̾̋͐̈́͌͠͠ it would mess up the CAPCOM page on most clients.
2020-08-05 15:49:40 hannu Almost did it, then came to my senses.
2020-08-05 15:54:22 rb100 it messed up my irc client too, so that was great.
2020-08-05 15:54:53 Cadey hannu: do it
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2020-08-05 16:26:44 calmbit my terminal handled it okay enough
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2020-08-05 16:29:27 rb100 calmbit: i was on a serial terminal
2020-08-05 16:29:38 calmbit rb100: oof, yeah, that'll do it for sure
2020-08-05 16:29:55 rb100 well, am on a serial terminal
2020-08-05 16:32:07 calmbit is it ASCII only then?
2020-08-05 16:33:29 rb100 yep
2020-08-05 16:34:31 calmbit huh, that's a pretty cool way to be linked in here tbh
2020-08-05 16:34:34 rb100 green screen and everything. every time i switch back to this channel it goes berzerk
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2020-08-05 17:05:09 anton nice messed up my irc client, and mine isn't ascii only
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2020-08-05 17:17:02 hannu weechat handles it nicely :shrug:
2020-08-05 17:32:37 makeworld Amfora master now support emoji favicons, it looks a lot better than I expected
2020-08-05 17:32:57 makeworld It's such a small clever RFC, in the Gemini spirit. Thanks mozz!
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2020-08-05 17:47:01 hannu I love the way amfora is developing
2020-08-05 17:47:32 hannu especially looking forward to feed support if you make something like you wrote about, makeworld
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2020-08-05 19:55:00 natpen makeworld: cool! I can't seem to get the favicons to render in Amfora, but it was enough motivation to add a favicon to GUS, so it's at least present now for others that want it.
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2020-08-05 20:08:11 Cadey gemini://cetacean.club/tools/character_gen <-- i used the rand crate and some simple rust to make an NPC backstory generator using tarot card descriptions
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2020-08-05 20:13:12 kensanata Interesting idea.
2020-08-05 20:13:23 kensanata Is there a ":" missing in the Recent Events line?
2020-08-05 20:13:32 kensanata e.g. "TemperanceEconomy, moderation, frugality, management, accommodation."
2020-08-05 20:13:51 Cadey i'm gonna go edit the JSON file by hand to make everything consistent
2020-08-05 20:14:01 Cadey the person that made this json file had divergent views on formatting
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2020-08-05 20:24:18 Cadey lol
2020-08-05 20:24:25 Cadey it replies in like 300 microseconds
2020-08-05 20:24:28 Cadey i love rust
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2020-08-05 21:19:47 @tomasino this is fantastic
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2020-08-05 21:48:56 makeworld hannu: Thanks :) And yes, feed support will be in v1.5.0 as well
2020-08-05 21:49:27 makeworld natpen: Hmm you're right, the gus.guru favicon is not being recognized. I will investigate
2020-08-05 21:53:13 makeworld Ah it's cause it's being served as text/gemini instead of text/plain. I'll switch to just supporting text/*
2020-08-05 21:55:32 makeworld Yep, works now
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2020-08-05 22:52:07 makeworld tomasino: The tomasino.org gemini cert is expired
2020-08-05 22:52:17 @tomasino Really?
2020-08-05 22:52:33 @tomasino I thought I made a 5 year thing
2020-08-05 22:52:46 makeworld Idk, sorry
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2020-08-05 22:55:10 makeworld tomasino: Looks like still a Let's Encrypt one: https://portal.mozz.us/gemini/tomasino.org/?crt=1
2020-08-05 22:55:22 @tomasino Hrm
2020-08-05 22:55:30 xfnw|sparrow :o
2020-08-05 22:55:33 @tomasino Well I guess I better fix that
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2020-08-06 08:41:37 kensanata I never quite appreciated how amazingly flexible URLs are.
2020-08-06 08:41:53 kensanata => //alexschroeder.ch/ My Blog
2020-08-06 08:42:12 kensanata Without a scheme, it will work for both gemini and the web, depending on how you're looking at it.
2020-08-06 08:42:24 kensanata => Help
2020-08-06 08:42:46 kensanata This is a link to the Help page in the same directory.
2020-08-06 08:43:30 kensanata I guess I just wasn't used to that sort of flexibility because I've been trained to use full URLs or some sort of wiki syntax, and nothing in between.
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2020-08-06 11:18:43 natpen makeworld: oh you're right! i switched it back to text/plain, in case you want to make amfora more strict about the favicon content_type again. and now that's working, i have to agree, this looks really nice in practice with amfora's tabs :)
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2020-08-06 12:00:46 kevinsan is there a better way to set amfora's default start page, other than to alias the command?
2020-08-06 12:08:46 Cadey i just realized i accidentally made my gemini server framework incredibly limited, but i'm actually okay with how it turned out
2020-08-06 12:09:01 Cadey i made it so that it's impractical to host binary assets with it
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2020-08-06 12:12:08 kevinsan so Cadey, what prevents your framework from sending a binary?
2020-08-06 12:15:39 @tomasino Fixed the cert on tomasino.org
2020-08-06 12:16:42 @tomasino I was beating my head against a wall for 20 minutes because I misspelled a filename
2020-08-06 12:18:05 kevinsan tomasino, it's not helped by the plethora of naming conventions that are used with certs/keys/etc
2020-08-06 12:19:03 @tomasino Yeah, but it was dumber than that. I accidentally had .cert instead of .crt in my script
2020-08-06 12:19:45 @tomasino I'm debugging ncat stuff and checking permissions like a dufus
2020-08-06 12:19:50 @tomasino Doofus?
2020-08-06 12:19:53 @tomasino One of those
2020-08-06 12:22:13 Cadey tomasino: but does this sentence make you breathe manually?
2020-08-06 12:23:08 kevinsan Cadey, i've seen this sentence twice now, and it *still* makes no sense. can you educate me?
2020-08-06 12:23:47 Cadey kevinsan: it genuinely makes some people start breathing manually, usually hits people that are more susceptible to suggestion
2020-08-06 12:24:14 kevinsan lol, quite cruel in a way
2020-08-06 12:24:20 Cadey however
2020-08-06 12:24:29 Cadey the real goal of it is to inoculate people against it
2020-08-06 12:25:02 @tomasino This time I just kept going
2020-08-06 12:25:03 kevinsan only this particular instance of it. it doesn't help with being susceptible to suggestion
2020-08-06 12:25:22 Cadey as people experience it more
2020-08-06 12:25:25 Cadey it has less effect on them
2020-08-06 12:25:33 Cadey thus creating an inoculation against it
2020-08-06 12:25:38 Cadey it's literally an anti-meme
2020-08-06 12:25:51 Samsai Cadey: jokes on you, i just stop breathing every time i see that sentence
2020-08-06 12:25:59 kevinsan i don't think i know the original meme
2020-08-06 12:26:06 Cadey there is no meme
2020-08-06 12:26:10 Cadey that's the meme
2020-08-06 12:26:26 kevinsan Samsai, that is still manual breathing - you're consciously stopping
2020-08-06 12:27:04 kevinsan (presumably you do restart evenually, of course!)
2020-08-06 12:27:13 Samsai kevinsan: only if you define holding your breath as breathing :P
2020-08-06 12:27:33 Cadey Samsai: is zero a number?
2020-08-06 12:27:38 kevinsan it's part of the process of breathing, yes.
2020-08-06 12:27:55 Cadey because if zero is a number, then stopping breath is controlling your breathing
2020-08-06 12:28:23 Samsai Cadey: i shall not fall victim to your mathemagicks
2020-08-06 12:29:00 kevinsan not quite - dijiridoo players breath in a circular way
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2020-08-06 12:35:37 hannu yes, through the nose while pushing air forward with their cheeks. it still includes stopping between inhaling and exhaling.
2020-08-06 12:36:26 hannu ie. didgeridoo is played only in part by breathing
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2020-08-06 12:37:47 hannu Cadey: does this sentence increase your heart rate, though?
2020-08-06 12:38:10 Cadey hannu: do you think i would out things out there that I am not immune to?
2020-08-06 12:38:21 hannu :D
2020-08-06 12:38:27 kevinsan hannu, yes, but there's not necessarily a specific point where exhalation stops and inhalation begins (e.g. lungs are not digital devices)
2020-08-06 12:40:08 hannu Cadey: what about this oN̴͕͑E̸̮̅ ̵̯̉h̸̜̃E̶̘̍_̶̰̋ć̷̲O̴̲͒M̷͓̽e̷̪͊S̵̻̀
2020-08-06 12:40:24 hannu kevinsan: sorry for falling for a red herring
2020-08-06 12:40:30 ⚡ Cadey explodes into recursively exploding bricks
2020-08-06 12:40:45 kevinsan don't know about Cadey but that sentence did raise by blood pressure
2020-08-06 12:41:02 hannu you're right about breathing not requiring stopping
2020-08-06 12:41:20 hannu still, stopping your breathing is almost always manual
2020-08-06 12:41:54 hannu I guess I'm holding my breath automatically underwater, but if I do it sitting on a couch it's always manual.
2020-08-06 12:43:54 kevinsan it has always been manual thus far, but at some point in the future someone might suffocate you from behind. just saying.
2020-08-06 12:44:30 hannu On second thought I never breathe manually. It's always pulmonary. I do breathe conciously pulmonarily at times. :)
2020-08-06 12:47:01 kevinsan yeah, I didn't really get what 'breathing manually' was anyway.
2020-08-06 12:47:49 kevinsan i had images of ventilators in mind, went off on a though-tangent, then realised it probably couldn't be joked much about in these says of SARS
2020-08-06 12:54:00 hannu I wonder if people in North Korea and Turkmenistan joke about COVID-19
2020-08-06 12:54:31 hannu I mean, people here in Finland joked about it back in February before it hit us
2020-08-06 12:55:04 hannu not saying those countries aren't hit, just that their official propaganda says they have no infections
2020-08-06 12:56:09 hannu also, I wonder if it will be years or decades before the survivors start joking about this pandemic, or will it only be the next generation
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2020-08-06 13:36:47 kensanata Interesting to see that I can also get gemlog.blue posts via HTTPS... https://gemlog.blue/users/acdw/1596293616.gmi
2020-08-06 13:48:24 kevinsan kensanata, i'm starting to see screen time in terms of productive vs non-productive. the more time i spend consuming, the less time i spend producing. consumption is only valuable if it contributes to production.
2020-08-06 13:51:47 kevinsan social media (and modern web generally) is designed for compulsive consumption. i think most people are susceptible, but traditional tv can be just as bad (who hasn't had a box-set marathon).
2020-08-06 13:54:50 kevinsan i've never had a facebook account (ugh!), deleted twitter/linkedin, and avoid as much of mainstream web as i can now. the Internet is probably 10 sites to me lol
2020-08-06 13:55:03 kensanata I don't know. That sounds awefully reductive to me. Some activities worth discussing might be reading books, hanging out and chatting with friends; there's a line somewhere and beyond it lies a capitalist view that only productive time is valuable time, and I don't share that point of view; the question then becomes: how productive do the hours have to be?
2020-08-06 13:56:11 kensanata I did delete my Facebook and Twitter accounts once I realized that my posts weren't getting any replies and I didn't feel like shouting into the void.
2020-08-06 13:56:37 kensanata Or at least, not the kinds of responses I was hoping for.
2020-08-06 13:58:08 kevinsan i'm realising that I have been over-exposed to fiction my entire life. kids tv, advertising, drama, soaps, films (and books if i'd been much of a reader)
2020-08-06 14:00:09 kevinsan so i think even reading books is included. not that I think any of those things is inherently bad (well, i consider most advertising emotional abuse)
2020-08-06 14:00:12 kensanata I'm reading your position as: I want to create more and consume less; but who are you creating for? Yourself? Others? Do the others consume what you create, or use it, in a kind of technological or utilitarian progression of people helping each other – but towards what? I'm not a farmer, so eventually we're back at story telling in some sort of way, I think.
2020-08-06 14:00:31 kensanata Yeah, let's ignore ads. :D
2020-08-06 14:01:51 kevinsan that hits on something that's been bugging me - youtubers who say "let me know what you want me to do" - it's so needy.
2020-08-06 14:02:12 kensanata Many bloggers, too
2020-08-06 14:02:20 kensanata (Coming from the RPG world.)
2020-08-06 14:02:41 kevinsan exactly! it's the essence of needy - these people want to be want to be watched, because they'll do anything for revenue
2020-08-06 14:03:47 kevinsan but sometimes it's just wanting to be praised, still needy, but for a slightly different objective. I probably fall into the latter, since I'm not particularly money-driven
2020-08-06 14:04:09 kensanata Doesn't have to be. I could also us it as criticism of your position: they don't want to consume, they want to create: but if all their friends are busy writing blog posts and making podcasts, there's nobody left to consume what they create...
2020-08-06 14:05:05 kensanata What I mean to say, I guess, is that this extends into the non-commercial realm.
2020-08-06 14:05:44 hannu It's ironic that hundreds of millions of people are compulsively consuming whatever they get their hands on, yet it's awfully difficult to get *anyone* to consume *your* content :D
2020-08-06 14:05:53 kensanata Hahahahaha
2020-08-06 14:05:55 kensanata Ouch!
2020-08-06 14:06:16 kensanata Let alone use your software. :D
2020-08-06 14:06:54 hannu I used to write facebook posts but almost nobody liked let alone commented them. Then I started blogging. With no equivalent of likes and no analytics I have no idea if I have readers. Much better than knowing there's none!
2020-08-06 14:07:31 kevinsan i think that there's a lot to say on the subject of motivation to produce, and I have a 6 year old demanding my attention. so it will have to wait/
2020-08-06 14:07:43 kensanata Hah
2020-08-06 14:07:53 kensanata Kids is of course a good answer for many of us.
2020-08-06 14:07:58 hannu I'm pretty sure my gemlog has much more readers than my blog just because the community is small.
2020-08-06 14:09:05 hannu I've got 5 year old twins. Of course they're the priority, but daddy needs hobbies to stay sane :)
2020-08-06 14:09:58 hannu It's important to be a good father but it's also important to not only be that.
2020-08-06 14:10:08 kevinsan hannu, there's a whole pile of stuff to be said on your gemlog comment too! the community of people who have any interest whatsoever in obscure simplified TCP/IP protocols is bound to have quite a lot in common
2020-08-06 14:10:17 kevinsan yet probably diverse in so many other ways
2020-08-06 14:11:23 kevinsan it gets to what's been lost by monolithic platforms that deceives us into considering them 'communities' of any sort. Reddit is slightly excepted there, but their algorithms game you to f*ck
2020-08-06 14:11:32 kevinsan anyway, time to play with the boy...
2020-08-06 14:11:47 kevinsan that's not a euphemism
2020-08-06 14:11:49 kevinsan :)
2020-08-06 14:12:19 hannu :)
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2020-08-06 14:39:02 scottjoe I kind of ended up here for the same reason. I bought a sub to NYTimes to have one source of decent information, but I still wish it was _just_ the information...even with a good news source, I'm still on stimulation overload...
2020-08-06 14:40:02 scottjoe I ordered a ReMarkable2 and Mutida phone to move to e-ink and limit my device's ability to move the line of information flow. Which is pretty much what it does...always tries to move the line
2020-08-06 14:41:00 scottjoe In general... I just want everything to take a few steps back. Work, life, politics. It all needs to chill a little lol.
2020-08-06 14:42:16 scottjoe As a frontend dev, Gemini feels like a vacation. Something that forces the job back into the realm of "first, be useful." Where so much these days is polish first and substance second.
2020-08-06 14:42:43 scottjoe I haven't used IRC in probably 15 years, so even this is a departure.
2020-08-06 14:44:23 scottjoe And having a kid has really shifted the amount of time and energy I have to give to things. So yeah...a few minutes on Twitter can drain me pretty fast, so...I just don't anymore.
2020-08-06 14:44:35 makeworld kevinsan: Right now you can't change the start page. You can change the homepage, but you only access it with Ctrl-H. Feel free to create an issue, or keep using the alias :)
2020-08-06 15:24:08 ⚡ Cadey makes note to self to add homepage setting to majc
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2020-08-06 15:51:03 kevinsan makeworld, thanks, Ctrl-H is convenient enough (must have read that key as g)
2020-08-06 15:56:30 kevinsan scottjoe, I'm pretty sure your sentiment would chime many here. the net has changed a lot in the past 10 years, plenty of great stuff, but also plenty not so much!
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2020-08-06 17:10:21 scottjoe kevinsan thanks. I think that's what draws me to the technology and the community. Working in the industry, I have less and less interest in consuming it. There's more and more money in it, and (probably because of the money) there's less and less innovation. More derivative works to sneak a margin out of some edge case
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2020-08-06 17:15:26 scottjoe So, I'm really interested in how I can more of what I need on Gemini. I've been thinking about what I could move to Gemini. Aside from static files, I'm thinking maybe a news scraper might be the first stop.
2020-08-06 17:16:04 scottjoe I'm really interested in this open source e-reader project out there and whether I could somehow line it up with Gemini to read documents stored there. Not sure yet. Just kicking around some ideas
2020-08-06 17:17:47 Sario Who was it that was planning on putting Gemini content on an e-reader?
2020-08-06 17:18:04 makeworld Sario: It was Cadey, of cetecean.club
2020-08-06 17:18:19 scottjoe I was on there yesterday looking at their Git repos
2020-08-06 17:18:26 makeworld *cetacean.club
2020-08-06 17:18:27 Sario Thank you. I'm bad with names
2020-08-06 17:18:29 Cadey Sario: hi there
2020-08-06 17:18:37 Sario Hello Cadey
2020-08-06 17:18:55 Sario How are you today?
2020-08-06 17:19:03 Cadey kinda tired, but i'm waking up still
2020-08-06 17:19:26 Cadey been working on automating automation of automation at work
2020-08-06 17:19:46 scottjoe lovely
2020-08-06 17:19:46 Sario Sounds recursive
2020-08-06 17:19:58 Cadey terraform is a pit of hell
2020-08-06 17:20:19 scottjoe ha
2020-08-06 17:21:02 scottjoe Cadey have you got anything written down on how gemini -> e-reader might work?
2020-08-06 17:21:58 makeworld gemtext -> markdown, then markdown -> epub using pandoc?
2020-08-06 17:22:20 makeworld Write a foreword, and you're good to go ;)
2020-08-06 17:22:30 scottjoe I've worked with pandoc some..
2020-08-06 17:22:56 Cadey scottjoe: at a high level it's going to be an atom feed parser, download articles, group them by author, download the gemtext, parse it into an AST, render that AST to HTML, render that HTML and some dynamic markdown based on other metadata (date, etc) into an eBook using pandoc, etc
2020-08-06 17:23:17 Cadey and why HTML you might ask?
2020-08-06 17:23:23 scottjoe lol interesting
2020-08-06 17:23:27 Cadey pandoc's markdown implementation is overly pedantic
2020-08-06 17:25:16 makeworld How so?
2020-08-06 17:25:27 Cadey it doesn't have soft paragraph breaks
2020-08-06 17:26:11 Cadey i found this out when I was publishing my book, i had to put some free verse in fixed width blocks
2020-08-06 17:26:36 makeworld I'm not sure what you mean
2020-08-06 17:27:12 makeworld What about this? https://spec.commonmark.org/0.29/#hard-line-breaks
2020-08-06 17:27:32 Cadey https://gist.github.com/Xe/b5c087c122beef46e97aa9f9f3cf6fed
2020-08-06 17:27:46 Cadey highlight the raw markdown file and see the two spaces at the end of the first hi there
2020-08-06 17:27:54 Cadey that makes it a soft line break
2020-08-06 17:28:00 Cadey except with pandoc markdown
2020-08-06 17:28:02 makeworld Yeah ok, like what I linked
2020-08-06 17:28:21 Cadey oh
2020-08-06 17:28:24 makeworld Markdown spec calls them hard line breaks lol, that's why I was confused
2020-08-06 17:28:25 Cadey it's hard line breaks
2020-08-06 17:28:27 Cadey okay
2020-08-06 17:28:32 Cadey i understand
2020-08-06 17:28:36 makeworld Anyway pandoc doesn't support that??
2020-08-06 17:28:45 Cadey ...apparently it does
2020-08-06 17:28:51 ⚡ Cadey facepalms
2020-08-06 17:29:14 makeworld Oh okay lol
2020-08-06 17:29:19 makeworld 🎉
2020-08-06 17:30:08 makeworld Yay!
2020-08-06 17:30:24 Cadey i'll probably work on this more this weekend
2020-08-06 17:30:51 makeworld Excited to see the results!
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2020-08-06 19:11:40 makeworld I was thinking about how you could easily build a Gemini proxy, akin to Squid for the web
2020-08-06 19:12:01 makeworld And make use of Gemini's built in proxy ability, by sending the actual URLs to the proxy instead
2020-08-06 19:12:28 makeworld I'm going to add proxying support to gemget and Amfora, but there's no server implementation of this afaik
2020-08-06 19:14:12 Cadey is there a spec for CGI for gemini servers?
2020-08-06 19:17:31 makeworld What do you mean?
2020-08-06 19:17:59 Cadey like what environment variables and semantics to have so i can implement a handler for it
2020-08-06 19:18:08 makeworld There is a CGI RFC, it's a standard. It boils down to executing files and passing variables
2020-08-06 19:18:21 makeworld I would look at the RFC, and then at what variables Jetforce uses
2020-08-06 19:18:26 Cadey fair
2020-08-06 19:18:39 makeworld As it adds some custom ones. But there is no spec/std for CGI on Gemini
2020-08-06 19:18:56 makeworld It'd be nice for servers not to diverge too much on the special Gemini keys
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2020-08-06 19:47:20 epoch I've been adding CGI stuff to my gemini server
2020-08-06 19:48:18 epoch nobody uses it except me, but I try to stay as close to the CGI1.1 RFC as I can.
2020-08-06 19:48:50 epoch https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3875 btw
2020-08-06 19:49:18 epoch SSL_TLS_SNI is what I use to let the CGI scripts know what hostname was requested with the SNI
2020-08-06 19:49:31 epoch because... that's what apache does.
2020-08-06 19:53:17 kevinsan epoch, does your server code have a public repository? more specifically, what language are you using?
2020-08-06 19:53:25 epoch shell-script.
2020-08-06 19:53:31 epoch and I think it is up somewhere.
2020-08-06 19:53:40 epoch haven't done a commit and push in a while
2020-08-06 19:53:42 kevinsan bash?
2020-08-06 19:53:55 epoch yeah
2020-08-06 19:57:23 epoch git://batou.thebackupbox.net/shell-daemons
2020-08-06 19:57:32 epoch also has an httpd also written in shell-script
2020-08-06 19:57:43 epoch and a gopherd
2020-08-06 19:57:49 kevinsan thanks. does it block on port 1965 when processing a request, or does it hand off to a subshell?
2020-08-06 19:58:01 epoch stunnel does that part
2020-08-06 19:58:10 epoch I don't have that included in that repo. >_>
2020-08-06 19:58:30 epoch I wrote them to be ran from inetd-like things
2020-08-06 19:59:12 kevinsan that's great - look forward to browsing that if and when you do a push
2020-08-06 19:59:12 epoch stunnel was the only inetd-like thing I found (so far) that had SNI support
2020-08-06 19:59:33 epoch I'll do it now.
2020-08-06 19:59:59 kevinsan don't feel rushed - i don't want you to pollute your commits
2020-08-06 20:02:08 kevinsan is uritools a python lib?
2020-08-06 20:02:08 epoch annoyingly, I've been editing stunnel code to get more information into env vars
2020-08-06 20:02:24 epoch because the SNI host info isn't exported by default
2020-08-06 20:02:34 epoch or some other things I'd like to set for CGIs to use
2020-08-06 20:03:00 epoch I might have to start poking the stunnel people with patches
2020-08-06 20:03:34 kevinsan is there nothing you could just grep from the logs at runtime?
2020-08-06 20:04:20 epoch oh. that might work. but it seems gross.
2020-08-06 20:04:52 kevinsan gross is fine - when I time the stuff i do in shell, it's astonishing how performant it all is.
2020-08-06 20:06:52 kevinsan even launch a process that tail -f|grep the log or something like that, pushing the results somewhere to read (ok, memcache is in mind, but that complicates things)
2020-08-06 20:07:27 epoch yeah... I'd rather just add 3 lines to stunnel
2020-08-06 20:08:16 kevinsan in these days of easy forks on github, why not indeed
2020-08-06 20:09:55 kevinsan ha - i just spent 15 seconds trying to cd into geminid - that confused me. Concise!
2020-08-06 20:14:28 kevinsan that's pretty cool epoch, i must try it out later
2020-08-06 20:19:07 epoch I think I have a page on my website about how I have stunnel setup for gemini
2020-08-06 20:19:51 epoch https://thebackupbox.net/cgi-bin/pageview.cgi?page=stunnel
2020-08-06 20:21:15 epoch that reminds me somehow that I need to change how my link shortener over gemini works.
2020-08-06 20:21:48 epoch if the request URI is different from the SNI I can use that as a link submission.
2020-08-06 20:21:59 epoch instead of using /submit
2020-08-06 20:22:07 epoch and the URI as a query string
2020-08-06 20:22:30 epoch dunno how many clients would support that though
2020-08-06 20:23:54 epoch I'd do it like: gemini-get gemini-proxy://epo.k.vu/any://other/URL-gets-passed-as-request
2020-08-06 20:24:52 epoch oh. heh. right now I have my epo.k.vu actually acting as a proxy.
2020-08-06 20:25:07 epoch not sure which is neater.
2020-08-06 20:27:48 epoch I don't really suggest trying to get some of my stuff working unless you're fine either figuring out all the dog food I've written that everything else eventually depends on, or editing that stuff out.
2020-08-06 20:28:15 epoch like, uristart being ran from inside geminid when a request is proxied
2020-08-06 20:28:55 epoch though it probably uses uricut anyway
2020-08-06 20:28:58 epoch which is the same repo
2020-08-06 20:29:09 epoch but uristart requires setting up a config file
2020-08-06 20:33:24 kevinsan i'm kind of drawn to the established unix tools, so i'm quite interested the stuff you've done. figuring out the dog food is really part of the fun.
2020-08-06 20:33:44 kevinsan (though your code looks pretty good to my eyes at least)
2020-08-06 20:34:25 epoch half of what I do is in C for making my shell-scripts less of a pain in the butt.
2020-08-06 20:34:46 epoch like, uricut to keep me from having to use a regex or some other flakey way of parsing URIs
2020-08-06 20:35:28 epoch (or some scripting language like perl or python or ruby that would use a module and load /way/ to much into memory just to split up a URI)
2020-08-06 20:35:35 kevinsan right, so i was going to ask about that - is that part of uritools you mentioned?
2020-08-06 20:35:48 epoch yeah
2020-08-06 20:36:20 epoch I'll see if I need to do some commits first.
2020-08-06 20:36:30 epoch I'm pretty sure I changed things to switch from xmessage to dmenu
2020-08-06 20:36:40 epoch in the user interfacing parts
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2020-08-06 20:41:02 epoch uritools repo got updates commit'd and pushed
2020-08-06 20:41:15 epoch that repo is in 3 places
2020-08-06 20:41:34 epoch https://github.com/kkabrams/uritools
2020-08-06 20:43:05 kevinsan thanks - might come in handy because I'm currently parsing URLs using a regex (and I can already see places where it might break!)
2020-08-06 20:44:00 epoch I don't do URI validation in my cutter, so it can sometimes do weird stuff with weird input
2020-08-06 20:45:05 epoch it splits off parts of the input string until it can't anymore then considers what's left to be the parts.
2020-08-06 20:45:42 epoch like, if there's a # it cuts that off and uses that as fragment_id, or ? for query_string, then tries to cut the scheme off
2020-08-06 20:46:04 epoch then tries to figure out whether there's an authority or not and separate it from the path
2020-08-06 20:46:29 epoch then splits authority into userinfo and domainport or something..
2020-08-06 20:46:35 epoch at an @
2020-08-06 20:47:09 epoch splits pre-@ into user:pass if there's a :
2020-08-06 20:47:52 epoch post-@ gets checked for [ to see if its an IPv6, if so, it splits on ]
2020-08-06 20:48:47 epoch anything inside of []s will get considered a hostname instead of just stuff that's a valid Ipv6 address.
2020-08-06 20:49:07 epoch and ports don't /have/ to be numbers for uricut
2020-08-06 20:50:06 epoch uristart in the uritools was me attempting to make a better xdg-open
2020-08-06 20:55:37 kevinsan seems sane enough. I'm sure I have a huge list of semi-random URLs if you ever need a corpus of wild URLs to check against.
2020-08-06 20:57:14 epoch :) I have a list too.
2020-08-06 20:57:31 epoch https://thebackupbox.net/links.txt
2020-08-06 20:58:10 epoch try to include weird uri schemes in the list for playing with
2020-08-06 20:58:11 kevinsan ha, puny. mine's 1.8G
2020-08-06 20:58:36 epoch links.txt is kind of just my public bookmarks
2020-08-06 20:58:59 epoch and its been deleted a few times.
2020-08-06 20:59:28 epoch what's the semi-random URLs from?
2020-08-06 21:00:04 kevinsan I visited every link on HN (inc comments) and extracted the links from each page.
2020-08-06 21:01:00 epoch what regex did you match for finding if something was a URI or not?
2020-08-06 21:01:41 epoch x-terminal-emulator.*.pattern.3: \\b([a-z][A-Za-z0-9+.-]*:\\/{0,2}[A-Za-z0-9:/?#\\[\\]@!{body}amp;'\''\\(\\)*+,;=%~_.-]+)
2020-08-06 21:01:41 epoch x-terminal-emulator.*.launcher.3: copy_start_nevermind.sh $0 &
2020-08-06 21:01:43 kevinsan It's all there https://gitlab.com/ksangeelee/cfs_build
2020-08-06 21:02:41 kevinsan bear in mind I was only interested in http/s, so the use-case is much simpler than your
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2020-08-06 21:17:20 epoch https://thebackupbox.net/cgi-bin/pageview.cgi?page=linkstats
2020-08-06 21:17:35 epoch 21 different uri schemes
2020-08-06 21:20:31 kevinsan many i'd never seen before - I only learned about dict: earlier today!
2020-08-06 21:21:24 epoch I still haven't gotten around to implementing a dict URI handler for myself yet.
2020-08-06 21:21:41 epoch right now if I click a dict link it is just stubbed out as an xmessage
2020-08-06 21:22:00 kevinsan i'm looking for a very abbreviated english dictionary for a mini-project, so that I can identify e.g. 'interesting' as a word but not 'Vim'
2020-08-06 21:22:49 kevinsan so many technical terms exist in dictionaries, even C99(!)
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2020-08-06 21:23:52 kevinsan i've written a word-cloud for my Gemini site, derived from my sitemap and full-text index, but I want to throw away common english words
2020-08-06 21:24:05 epoch "the!"
2020-08-06 21:24:21 Cadey kevinsan: look up "stopwords"
2020-08-06 21:24:23 epoch word distribution follows zipf's law?
2020-08-06 21:26:19 kevinsan thanks Cadey - all the stopwords lists are still too limiting - even the word 'limiting' I wouldn't want in a word cloud.
2020-08-06 21:26:44 Cadey you may want to just make your own stopwords list then lol
2020-08-06 21:27:53 epoch could just play whack-a-mole and add them to the list as you see them?
2020-08-06 21:29:10 kevinsan yes to both, but if I had a really basic dictionary file I could do it more effectively.
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2020-08-07 00:45:12 omse Hello, someone knows or has a way to contact the owner of konpeito.media?
2020-08-07 00:45:25 omse the gemini site seems to be offline
2020-08-07 00:46:13 vee has quit (Ping timeout: 120 seconds)
2020-08-07 00:46:45 Cadey horrible idea: gemflare, like cloudflare but for geminispace
2020-08-07 00:47:05 xfnw omse: people usually have email forwarded from abuse@domain you could try emailing that
2020-08-07 00:47:17 xfnw there might be more contact info in the whois of the domain
2020-08-07 00:47:23 xfnw Cadey: lol yes
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2020-08-07 00:49:57 omse xfnw: thanks for the info!
2020-08-07 00:51:18 omse hmm, diggin through gopher://konpeito.media it seems the owner is the same from tilde.tel
2020-08-07 00:52:02 xfnw what? i thought cat had the gopher hole baud.baby
2020-08-07 00:53:02 @tomasino he does
2020-08-07 00:53:06 @tomasino he does many things
2020-08-07 00:53:16 @tomasino also #baudvision
2020-08-07 00:55:07 omse oh i see
2020-08-07 00:56:25 omse cat: hi, it seems konpeito.media's gemini is offline. Letting you know just in case
2020-08-07 01:22:53 calmbit if content is being served from static files, is there a standard file extension for text/gemini files?
2020-08-07 01:23:48 calmbit (sorry if this is a dumb or obvious question, I just haven't found anything in my searches that answer this)
2020-08-07 01:35:17 @tomasino hey calmbit
2020-08-07 01:35:27 @tomasino most servers will serve .gmi or .gemini files
2020-08-07 01:35:35 @tomasino as text/gemini (also called gemtext)
2020-08-07 01:35:44 @tomasino but it's up to the server software
2020-08-07 01:36:57 calmbit awesome, thank you tomasino !
2020-08-07 01:38:52 @tomasino NP
2020-08-07 01:39:50 dctrud hi gemini folk
2020-08-07 01:39:58 @tomasino hiya
2020-08-07 01:40:30 dctrud haven't browsed much for a bit... about to go looking for anything new that's popped up. any hot tips?
2020-08-07 02:03:15 makeworld omse: konpeito often goes offline, not much to do about it. Download the files if you want to keep them
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2020-08-07 07:53:21 hannu I found updown.io yesterday and noticed that it can be used to check gemini servers (tcp :1965). Maybe someone will find this useful. https://updown.io/vbah
2020-08-07 07:53:49 hannu (that link is the status check for my gemini server)
2020-08-07 07:54:33 hannu (ping me if you'd like a referral link. it gives double free credits on signup.)
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2020-08-07 08:09:25 @julienxx Morning geminauts
2020-08-07 08:14:46 hannu Good morning!
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2020-08-07 09:40:43 djph o/
2020-08-07 10:12:53 jan good morning :)
2020-08-07 10:14:51 cat jetforce crashes out when someone tries to download
2020-08-07 10:15:10 cat seems to be zip files specifically
2020-08-07 10:15:14 cat some
2020-08-07 10:15:21 cat kind of memory error
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2020-08-07 11:37:24 @tomasino Poop
2020-08-07 11:38:03 @tomasino May be time to migrate to Molly brown or that g one that everyone uses and I can't remember the name of
2020-08-07 11:48:35 isvarahparamahkrsnah hello
2020-08-07 11:53:10 djph hi isvarahparamahkrsnah
2020-08-07 12:00:03 cat yeah i need to try something else but right now working on anything is the bottom of my list
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2020-08-07 12:21:37 Cadey i'm getting close to having webassembly CGI support to my gemini server
2020-08-07 12:21:47 Cadey because why not
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2020-08-07 23:14:14 makeworld cat: File a bug if you can! :)
2020-08-07 23:15:27 makeworld tomasino: Geminid (C) or Geminal (Rust) ?
2020-08-07 23:15:48 makeworld Cadey: wow nice lol
2020-08-07 23:15:54 makeworld So it will execute .wasm files?
2020-08-07 23:15:59 Cadey that's the plan yeah
2020-08-07 23:16:25 makeworld Interesting... I've seen people talk about it's potential as a generic containerized executable format
2020-08-07 23:16:30 makeworld *its
2020-08-07 23:16:42 makeworld Idk if I'm convinced, but it's a cool idea
2020-08-07 23:16:49 easeout wasm to execute server side?
2020-08-07 23:17:05 makeworld Yeah, it's a thing. Just still very small/beta rn
2020-08-07 23:18:14 makeworld cat: konpeito's cert has expired bt
2020-08-07 23:18:19 makeworld *btw
2020-08-07 23:18:37 ⚡ easeout reads
2020-08-07 23:18:51 Cadey yeah
2020-08-07 23:18:56 Cadey wasm on the server
2020-08-07 23:21:05 easeout ok so the fact that wasm has to interop with JS to work on the front end means JS can be used to interop lots of different languages, and therefore has server benefits, is that the idea?
2020-08-07 23:22:11 companion_cube on the server side, wasm doesn't need any js…
2020-08-07 23:22:49 easeout then, it has an intermediate language instead a la CLR or JVM or LLVM?
2020-08-07 23:22:51 Cadey easeout: https://christine.website/talks/webassembly-on-the-server-system-calls-2019-05-31
2020-08-07 23:23:07 easeout thanks!
2020-08-07 23:23:31 makeworld It's like an IR I think
2020-08-07 23:23:44 easeout mmk so the interop story is simpler than i thought
2020-08-07 23:23:47 makeworld Or rather a virtual machine instruction set, so yeah like JVM
2020-08-07 23:24:46 Cadey yeah
2020-08-07 23:24:52 Cadey the real fun comes from making system calls
2020-08-07 23:25:07 easeout what level of safety do you get with that connective tissue? like i assume a rust binary will be well behaved by itself, but when you link it to go or JS
2020-08-07 23:25:34 Cadey surprisingly a lot
2020-08-07 23:26:10 easeout cool i'm looking forward to researching a bit
2020-08-07 23:26:17 easeout thanks for the details
2020-08-07 23:26:31 Cadey no problem
2020-08-07 23:27:00 companion_cube it's like the jvm, but without the GC or a forced object model
2020-08-07 23:27:11 Cadey yeah :D
2020-08-07 23:28:03 easeout "without GC" *stars in my eyes*
2020-08-07 23:28:41 makeworld But you can compile with a GC
2020-08-07 23:28:48 makeworld Like Go can compile to wasm
2020-08-07 23:28:59 Cadey without a forced GC
2020-08-07 23:29:20 easeout sure cool
2020-08-07 23:30:11 easeout i've worked in iOS, and the android kids all love kotlin. but they are often blind to how the JVM has hamstrung that language
2020-08-07 23:30:29 easeout the popular story is that kotlin is akin to swift but it's more like a typescript tbh
2020-08-07 23:30:55 easeout not that typescript isn't great for what it does, which is make JS more sane
2020-08-07 23:31:03 easeout and same re: kotlin
2020-08-07 23:45:35 kevinsan Cadey, did you ever get to the stream accepting tcp connections?
2020-08-07 23:56:37 Cadey no, but i have ideas on how to do it
2020-08-07 23:59:55 kevinsan it's a really cool idea. i didn't totally pick up the runtime resources of your hello world - 128K of ram did you say?
2020-08-08 00:03:54 @tomasino fate core game tonight
2020-08-08 00:04:00 @tomasino time to bust out Cadey's character generator
2020-08-08 00:04:35 Cadey Yay
2020-08-08 00:05:20 admicos has quit (quit: cya)
2020-08-08 00:06:38 @tomasino oh shoot, i need to reinstall kristall
2020-08-08 00:06:40 @tomasino new system
2020-08-08 00:06:51 @tomasino xq: where's those sexy binaries you talked about before?
2020-08-08 00:07:13 @tomasino double-shoot. i didn't save my key to my plant!
2020-08-08 00:07:15 @tomasino NOOOOOO
2020-08-08 00:07:29 makeworld :(
2020-08-08 00:07:49 @tomasino alas
2020-08-08 00:09:27 easeout bummer
2020-08-08 00:11:34 makeworld Maybe talk to mozz and get him to manually register a new cert for you
2020-08-08 00:11:44 makeworld If you send him a hash he can edit the database
2020-08-08 00:13:14 @tomasino possibly
2020-08-08 00:13:19 @tomasino something to worry about after the game!
2020-08-08 00:13:44 djph wait what
2020-08-08 00:13:46 djph games?
2020-08-08 00:13:51 djph what game?
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2020-08-08 00:18:48 @tomasino I'm running a Fate Core game for my players in 45 min
2020-08-08 00:19:01 @tomasino i'm 75% sure they're going to destroy the world tonight
2020-08-08 00:19:05 @tomasino i sure hope so!
2020-08-08 00:19:09 companion_cube Cadey: you looking at wasi?
2020-08-08 00:19:54 djph what's "fate core" ?
2020-08-08 00:20:12 @tomasino It's a tabletop roleplaying game system
2020-08-08 00:20:23 @tomasino quite lovely
2020-08-08 00:20:33 @tomasino https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOFXtAHg7vU
2020-08-08 00:21:16 djph ah, another spin on pathfinder / dnd / etc.
2020-08-08 00:22:36 @tomasino not really
2020-08-08 00:22:53 @tomasino VERY different way of playing
2020-08-08 00:22:55 @tomasino story focused
2020-08-08 00:23:14 djph we tried that once
2020-08-08 00:23:20 djph our party is murder hobos :|
2020-08-08 00:30:45 Cadey companion_cube: my research predates wasi
2020-08-08 00:30:51 Cadey wasi is too limited
2020-08-08 00:30:57 ▬▬▶ Movieguy has joined #gemini
2020-08-08 00:31:00 Movieguy https://clipwatching.com/q1yrex48xh5g/MD_3010II_metal_detector_field_test_on_trashy,_hard_terrain.mp4.html
2020-08-08 00:31:18 Cadey my solution lets you do HTTP calls over the "filesystem"
2020-08-08 00:32:12 djph well, a "story driven" game
2020-08-08 00:32:40 Movieguy Stupid dude burns down his garden, extreme funny. https://clipwatching.com/43do3iukdgfq/down_his_garden_very_funny.mp4.html
2020-08-08 00:33:16 companion_cube Cadey: intruiging. Why the quotes around filesystem?
2020-08-08 00:33:43 login Movieguy: is this spam?
2020-08-08 00:33:54 @tomasino yep
2020-08-08 00:34:21 login Movieguy: you are rational but misguided
2020-08-08 00:34:40 companion_cube all that spam calls for is a kick
2020-08-08 00:35:07 login Movieguy: get religion ;)
2020-08-08 00:35:23 xfnw login: is everything alright?
2020-08-08 00:35:36 Movieguy :D
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2020-08-08 00:36:47 xfnw i still think login is multiple people... at different times they react to things totally differently
2020-08-08 00:36:55 login Movieguy: it's too easy to catch fish on open irc right?
2020-08-08 00:37:10 Movieguy always
2020-08-08 00:37:21 djph xfnw: time of day and/or level of annoyance at cow-orkers?
2020-08-08 00:37:22 login what's the play?
2020-08-08 00:37:32 login money on ads?
2020-08-08 00:37:44 Movieguy no
2020-08-08 00:37:44 djph ads?
2020-08-08 00:37:48 login or some apk?
2020-08-08 00:37:50 Movieguy just fun
2020-08-08 00:37:53 djph ohgodno, if ads make it to gemini i'm out
2020-08-08 00:37:56 xfnw login: or maybe its to stop people from making a profile of login's usual reactions and use it to find other identities?
2020-08-08 00:38:23 xfnw djph: lol GemAds or something
2020-08-08 00:38:31 login ^ i mean, on the link Movieguy shared
2020-08-08 00:38:43 djph xfnw: please no.
2020-08-08 00:38:46 login but ads will never make it to gemini
2020-08-08 00:38:48 djph :)
2020-08-08 00:38:54 xfnw will they?
2020-08-08 00:38:54 Movieguy you know the word spam where is it came from?
2020-08-08 00:39:14 ⚡ xfnw puts an ad for another gemini pod in his gemini pod, ha!
2020-08-08 00:39:19 djph it's ham, in a can.
2020-08-08 00:39:29 login ham is pork?
2020-08-08 00:39:29 Movieguy yep
2020-08-08 00:39:52 xfnw spam is ham? i thought it was misc meat
2020-08-08 00:40:04 djph well "ham"
2020-08-08 00:40:11 Movieguy so
2020-08-08 00:40:12 xfnw lol
2020-08-08 00:40:22 Movieguy spam spam
2020-08-08 00:40:22 login how does the link benefit you, Movieguy?
2020-08-08 00:40:24 kevinsan spam is a brand-name of a cheapo tinned pork product
2020-08-08 00:40:28 Movieguy came from Monty
2020-08-08 00:41:36 [tomasino away: game night]
2020-08-08 00:41:36 xfnw how does the nutritional value of spam compair to similar volumes of sandwich ham?
2020-08-08 00:41:39 login Dont ask about weight, and dont ask about income
2020-08-08 00:41:49 login Movieguy: kg and $?
2020-08-08 00:41:54 Movieguy has quit (G-lined: spam)
2020-08-08 00:42:09 xfnw aw lol this conversation was getting interesting
2020-08-08 00:42:38 calmbit ads in gemini would be depressing but at the very least they'd theoretically be less intrinsically harmful than HTML5/JavaScript ads
2020-08-08 00:42:47 calmbit unless you have a misbehaved client
2020-08-08 00:42:57 calmbit which would arguably be the _more_ depressing thing
2020-08-08 00:43:06 djph xfnw: it's cheaper in general .. IIRC a can is about on-par for the same price as the "store brands" for deli meat.
2020-08-08 00:43:11 xfnw lol YES gemini with javascript
2020-08-08 00:43:20 calmbit please no
2020-08-08 00:43:22 calmbit i beg you
2020-08-08 00:43:28 djph xfnw: I think you're on the wrong side of the ballmer peak.
2020-08-08 00:43:30 kevinsan like a client that would use http to fetch from an adtech network and show it in between gemini requests
2020-08-08 00:43:53 kevinsan i mean, it has to be done for the satire alone
2020-08-08 00:44:03 calmbit kevinsan: that's even more satanic than what i was thinking of
2020-08-08 00:44:26 calmbit i was literally just thinking a client that silently looks for lines formatted in a particular way and displays them differently as an adtech measure
2020-08-08 00:44:33 xfnw or maybe the clients should parse brainfuck
2020-08-08 00:44:46 calmbit brainfuck as an application language
2020-08-08 00:44:50 djph xfnw: oh, NUTRITIONAL value. It's more preserved (salty, etc) than say sliced ham. IIRC more on par with say bacon or heavily preserved sandwich meat (corned beef, proscuitto, etc.)
2020-08-08 00:45:29 djph calmbit: kevinsan I think both of you need to spend time sitting in the corner thinking about what you've done.
2020-08-08 00:46:05 calmbit djph: at the very least I don't want to ever see these ideas implemented, I just know that if corporations ever find this space it's the type of bullshit they'll pull
2020-08-08 00:46:27 xfnw lol yesss corperate gemini
2020-08-08 00:46:32 kevinsan djph, you're thought-police. i haven't done anything yet..... not yet.
2020-08-08 00:47:00 djph kevinsan: no no, I'm not the thought police. I work at Minitrue, not Miniluv.
2020-08-08 00:47:04 djph ... wait ...
2020-08-08 00:47:44 xfnw lol gemini should be able to start a windows vm in the background, and then arbitrarily run a exe file
2020-08-08 00:48:45 djph ew
2020-08-08 00:49:00 login true vs luv?
2020-08-08 00:49:34 kevinsan login, 1984 references? or was that not what you were asking
2020-08-08 00:49:45 djph 1984. As I recall (probably incorrectly) Ministry of Truth was responsible for changing history / propaganda / etc. Ministry of Love was the police.
2020-08-08 00:49:53 djph BUUUT I really need to re-read it again.
2020-08-08 00:50:07 login i see
2020-08-08 00:50:27 login i didnt read 1984
2020-08-08 00:50:33 calmbit did gopher ever get adtech?
2020-08-08 00:50:38 djph It's not an easy read.
2020-08-08 00:50:38 calmbit i can't imagine so
2020-08-08 00:50:47 login if orwell were around now, he'd see
2020-08-08 00:51:05 djph He'd be telling us it wasn't a user's manua
2020-08-08 00:51:07 djph *manual
2020-08-08 00:51:45 login there is no ministry
2020-08-08 00:51:48 kevinsan it's a darker book than I expected - kind of like Kafka's Penal Colony, but stretched out a long way and absent the humour
2020-08-08 00:51:53 login it's distributed
2020-08-08 00:52:23 login i didnt read kafka's penal colony either
2020-08-08 00:54:06 kevinsan login, what about The C Programming Language, Kernighan & Ritchie?
2020-08-08 00:54:33 djph I only read the ANSI edition
2020-08-08 00:55:58 kevinsan i want no truck with that modern fangled ANSI nonsense
2020-08-08 00:56:02 login not read it either
2020-08-08 00:56:20 djph kevinsan: heh
2020-08-08 00:57:51 kevinsan djph, I had in mind Ken Thompson, who says he's not much into these modern screen editors like vi, prefers to stick with ex
2020-08-08 00:58:08 djph "ed" ?
2020-08-08 00:58:32 djph love the kerninghan videos on youtube.
2020-08-08 00:58:35 djph we need more
2020-08-08 00:59:02 kevinsan similar, I think. ex is what vi grew out of - it's pretty much still in there in its entirety. Vim makes more sense when you learn some ex
2020-08-08 00:59:43 kevinsan login, do you have a book recommendation of something that has impressed you?
2020-08-08 00:59:51 djph vim makes a bit of sense as it is. I really need to get better with the buffers
2020-08-08 01:01:12 kevinsan if you really *had* to get better with buffers, then you'd just do it.
2020-08-08 01:01:58 djph I usually use the tabs instead. I just need to get better with them because I still run across systems @dayjob that don't have the tabs
2020-08-08 01:02:11 kevinsan I just map Tab and Shift-Tab to :bn and :bp
2020-08-08 01:03:41 kevinsan gemini://gemini.susa.net/cgi-bin/vim-search?buffers
2020-08-08 01:12:06 djph nice
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2020-08-08 02:40:25 u0_168a Hello
2020-08-08 02:40:42 u0_168a I have a question, how would I set up streaming of let's say a music file?
2020-08-08 02:52:29 kevinsan gemini is a text protocol, so you'd have to use something different to stream
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2020-08-08 03:08:51 u0_168a So to stream a file you need to have a streaming enabled client, and the file uploaded?
2020-08-08 03:09:02 u0_168a You don't need anything special beside that?
2020-08-08 03:10:47 calmbit theoretically insofar as the MIME type matches it should just be a matter of your client differentiating it, although gemini does seem to be mostly reserved for text. I don't know what the official guidelines are on serving binary content over gemini even are really
2020-08-08 03:11:10 calmbit (i'm not even close to an expert, this is my understanding of the protocol docs - YMMV)
2020-08-08 03:12:36 calmbit obviously the actual streaming itself would be slightly out of scope for a gemini client unless it was just downloading a stream cue or a full file
2020-08-08 03:12:38 calmbit but
2020-08-08 03:15:48 u0_168a I heard that it was possible
2020-08-08 03:15:51 u0_168a For example music streaming
2020-08-08 03:16:10 u0_168a Up to one, two days, if you searched in GUS "music" you would find an autoplay site
2020-08-08 03:16:17 u0_168a days ago*
2020-08-08 03:19:18 calmbit i don't exactly know what you mean by autoplay in this case
2020-08-08 03:19:35 calmbit as in, the site automatically played music when you navigated to it?
2020-08-08 03:26:14 u0_168a It said that it was meant to
2020-08-08 03:26:28 u0_168a However it did not do so currently, you had to compile a brief snippet first
2020-08-08 03:27:48 kevinsan you'd need a server that identifies the file as audio and sends a suitable mime-type prior to the data, and you'd need a client able to recognize the mime-type and read the binary data to decode/feed to a player.
2020-08-08 03:28:19 kevinsan I guess that what you read was a reference to something that does this.
2020-08-08 03:34:45 u0_168a The compiled snippet was piped to aplay -
2020-08-08 03:35:02 calmbit oh, well that'd do it i suppose
2020-08-08 03:36:48 u0_168a Ok, thanks
2020-08-08 03:37:00 u0_168a Till later
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2020-08-08 03:38:20 calmbit i do wonder how most gemini clients will handle stuff like binary data
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2020-08-08 05:26:14 @tomasino yay!
2020-08-08 05:26:20 @tomasino my fate game went the way i was hoping it would
2020-08-08 05:26:26 @tomasino my players destroyed the earth
2020-08-08 05:26:39 @tomasino cracked it into hundreds of pieces and also sorta, kinda broke time
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2020-08-08 11:05:41 djph nice
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2020-08-08 12:10:10 ~tiwesdaeg I am currently obsessed with blaseball
2020-08-08 12:12:18 djph DnD 3e5 is my vice
2020-08-08 12:12:33 djph ... and the magic numbered rocks ...
2020-08-08 12:23:36 ~tiwesdaeg that was not a typo either
2020-08-08 12:23:49 ~tiwesdaeg so many statistics
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2020-08-08 14:50:10 makeworld hannu: Your homepage is looking great, wow
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2020-08-08 14:55:17 easeout oh those colors are great
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2020-08-08 15:25:45 Cadey gemini://cetacean.club/cgi-bin/env.sh !
2020-08-08 15:25:52 Cadey I think I have CGI working!
2020-08-08 15:25:58 Cadey this is just for normal shell script stuff
2020-08-08 15:26:00 Cadey but
2020-08-08 15:26:08 Cadey doing it with webassembly stuff is trivial from here
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2020-08-08 16:01:56 calmbit it's so cool to see other people's things working with my thing that is working
2020-08-08 16:02:20 calmbit feel like I'm actually accomplishing a thing:tm:
2020-08-08 16:02:33 Cadey gemini://cetacean.club/cgi-bin/olinfetch.wasm
2020-08-08 16:03:02 Cadey for some reason client certificates make rustls sad though
2020-08-08 16:03:05 Cadey still trying to figure that out
2020-08-08 16:03:27 calmbit it's a shame they're not better advertised and supported
2020-08-08 16:04:42 Cadey source for that: https://github.com/Xe/pahi/blob/master/wasm/olin/src/bin/olinfetch.rs
2020-08-08 16:05:58 easeout nice work
2020-08-08 16:06:50 calmbit loving to see the CGI stuff Cadey , it's super cool stuff
2020-08-08 16:10:11 Cadey i'm about to go test it with some stuff other people have made
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2020-08-08 16:27:15 lukee hi folks
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2020-08-08 16:49:50 isvarahparamahkrsnah hellou
2020-08-08 16:57:42 kevinsan Cadey, well done, the wasm things's cool. how big is your olinfetch.wasm executable?
2020-08-08 17:04:55 kevinsan hi lukee, i found an issue with geminaut - from CGI, when I return e.g. '30 /sitemap.gmi\r\n' Geminaut hangs around forever (until closed). If I return a full gemini:// redirect, all works fine.
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2020-08-08 19:13:18 lukee kevinsan: can you point me at an example page or url where you get this. thanks
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2020-08-08 19:27:16 Cadey kevinsan: 368kb, but most of that is rust overhead
2020-08-08 19:28:59 Cadey lukee: gemini://cetacean.club/cgi-bin/forever.sh should replicate the behavior kevinsan is seeing
2020-08-08 19:33:12 lukee Cadey: thanks - I'll take a look
2020-08-08 19:40:14 lukee yep the redirect detection isnt working for targets that arent full URIs with a scheme
2020-08-08 19:40:47 lukee its at least supposed to popup an info notification saying this is not implemented yet
2020-08-08 19:41:13 lukee but probably I should just try to fix this
2020-08-08 19:47:20 easeout bombadillo sees an error, but not a hang: Invalid system path: /index.gmi
2020-08-08 19:49:27 easeout the spec does say "The URL may be absolute or relative" which i take to mean "like http", where relative can mean domain-relative (/...) or folder-relative (no /)
2020-08-08 19:50:07 easeout it is ambiguous though
2020-08-08 19:50:41 Cadey oh nice
2020-08-08 19:50:44 Cadey it makes majc segfault
2020-08-08 19:51:42 easeout yeah, i imagine a lot of implementations don't handle this well. there are three cases but the spec suggests there are two cases
2020-08-08 19:51:53 easeout easy mistake to make
2020-08-08 19:52:43 easeout maybe it does say elsewhere in the spec though. i just searched for "redirect" and read the surrounding bits
2020-08-08 20:02:16 lukee one more bug fixed :)
2020-08-08 20:06:57 login the spec is bad then
2020-08-08 20:07:05 login it should be overdetermined
2020-08-08 20:09:40 easeout the gemini spec being a little fast and loose made it fun to read and so here we all are … but yeah it could be clearer on this point
2020-08-08 20:13:12 Cadey i fixed it \o/
2020-08-08 20:13:28 Cadey https://tulpa.dev/cadey/maj/commit/6b9070e20027087c4dcd1d638ccee91a5f916765
2020-08-08 20:17:27 lukee me too
2020-08-08 20:17:28 lukee https://github.com/LukeEmmet/GemiNaut/commit/f4474fa48e062bec294a73241877ef12509c810e
2020-08-08 20:22:21 lukee I've updated the binary download on my website
2020-08-08 20:22:48 kevinsan i brought it to y'all test-shy hackers attention. i claim all gold-stars as rightfully mine.
2020-08-08 20:22:50 lukee kevinsan: if you prefer I can just send you a patched GemiNaut.exe
2020-08-08 20:23:26 kevinsan i can fetch it quicker from your link - thanks!
2020-08-08 20:23:30 easeout well done, reporter of accurate and diagnosable bugs
2020-08-08 20:23:55 easeout well it's not the bugs that are accurate but your report, but you get me
2020-08-08 20:25:05 lukee the new version should be 0.8.7.1 (previous was 0.8.7.0)
2020-08-08 20:26:31 kevinsan thanks easeout, i was entirely mucking about tho (i hope nobody thinks me *that* egotistical lol)
2020-08-08 20:28:40 kevinsan btw, I think the spec is plenty accurate. it shouldn't matter whether it the link is relative to the root or to the current path
2020-08-08 20:34:54 hannu makeworld: thanks!
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2020-08-09 18:20:04 tildebeast hi, trying out molly-brown on my freebsd vm. am i right in thinking it's best to have a specific user for the server rather than running as root or myself?
2020-08-09 18:25:56 [tomasino back: gone 41:44:20]
2020-08-09 18:33:06 Sario Sounds correct
2020-08-09 18:35:17 tildebeast thanks Sario
2020-08-09 18:35:40 tildebeast eally have to work out a FreeBSD init script too :)
2020-08-09 18:35:49 tildebeast s/eally/really
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2020-08-09 22:56:19 tildebeast hum. dabbling with a simple (crude) python script to connect to a server, send a url + \r\n, then print any response received. all that happens is a connection reset by peer. what might i be doing wrong?
2020-08-09 22:59:09 tildebeast pls ignore, wasn't setting up connection properly
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2020-08-10 02:48:18 ℹ gbmor is now known as GbMor
2020-08-10 02:50:43 ℹ GbMor is now known as gbmor
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2020-08-10 05:30:15 isvarahparamahkrsnah hi xj9
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2020-08-10 06:25:44 ℹ Mode #gemini [+o julienxx] by ChanServ
2020-08-10 06:34:14 isvarahparamahkrsnah hello
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2020-08-10 06:54:39 hannu makeworld: oops, i may have broken your comment system by listing examples of graphical non-emoji unicode characters in a comment :)
2020-08-10 06:56:04 hannu oh, I didn't. It just took a while to show the comment.
2020-08-10 08:48:02 @julienxx morning geminauts
2020-08-10 08:49:49 dkibi morning!
2020-08-10 08:50:28 dkibi ca va? (I still haven't figured out how to make that little hook on the c)
2020-08-10 08:51:28 isvarahparamahkrsnah hello
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2020-08-10 11:48:27 Cadey dkibi: alt-c on a mac
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2020-08-10 13:17:31 @ben compose c ,
2020-08-10 13:17:33 @ben ç
2020-08-10 13:35:39 dkibi ohhh
2020-08-10 13:35:54 dkibi It's so far way from the normal c xD
2020-08-10 13:36:01 scottjoe :D
2020-08-10 13:36:15 dkibi c is surrounded by æßð®©
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2020-08-10 14:04:42 Cadey hi nerds
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2020-08-10 14:08:45 @tomasino yo!
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2020-08-10 14:10:38 scottjoe Morn'
2020-08-10 14:15:15 @tomasino how's everyone?
2020-08-10 14:15:41 scottjoe Onboarding to a new client and nothing works, so that's always fun.
2020-08-10 14:17:20 @tomasino beautiful
2020-08-10 14:28:11 scottjoe Their IT vendor really makes it difficult to do work for them. But...it's work.
2020-08-10 14:28:36 djph money in your pocket is always nice
2020-08-10 14:57:33 xj9 isvarahparamahkrsnah: howdy
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2020-08-10 15:32:33 makeworld hannu: Sure, but I can't guarantee those kinds of characters will be used. You didn't use one! :). It's much easier to limit to emojis then to try and find all the "graphical" characters.
2020-08-10 15:32:37 makeworld From my response comment
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2020-08-10 17:48:52 makeworld Should Amfora store the items and metadata of a feed on the disk, or just the URLS and reconstruct each time
2020-08-10 17:55:13 makeworld Just the URLs is easier, but it's nice to have the history
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2020-08-10 18:44:22 kensanata For the feed aggregator I wrote in a different context, I keep all the feeds I downloaded in raw rss/atom form, and a json file with things like error messages I got etc.
2020-08-10 18:45:19 kensanata You still don't get the history all the way back: just what's in the current version of the feed. If I wanted to support archiving, I'd start looking at RFC 5005.
2020-08-10 18:51:19 kevinsan makeworld, gemini://gemini.susa.net/parse_irc.awk.gmi - i'm fetching a reprocesing your last 100 lines of IRC, here's the awk script if it's of any use.
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2020-08-10 20:24:21 @tomasino you all see that China blocked TLS 1.3 + ESNI?
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2020-08-10 20:32:17 xj9 not surprising
2020-08-10 20:32:22 xj9 but unfortunate
2020-08-10 20:32:50 xj9 i did learn a bit more about how yggdrasil does TLS tunneling as a result though
2020-08-10 20:51:27 lukee following the recent discussion of gemini favicons, i saw this on HN: https://thehistoryoftheweb.com/how-we-got-the-favicon/
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2020-08-10 21:33:09 makeworld kevinsan: Cool! To be honest I find that bit hard to read though, IRC doesn't really have sections like that
2020-08-10 21:41:04 kevinsan ha, curious - i was finding the raw irc log hard to read, esp on mobile. hope you don't mind me piggybacking off your cgi-script...
2020-08-10 21:42:59 kevinsan but now I read it in a console rather than GUI, I see what you mean!
2020-08-10 21:46:34 makeworld What's it look like on mobile?
2020-08-10 21:47:57 makeworld Nice favicon, btw :)
2020-08-10 21:56:10 kevinsan without reformatting, it's more or less unreadable to me - meta-messages & line wrapping make it hard to pick out actual chat.
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2020-08-10 21:58:34 kevinsan with reformatting, in Deedum, it's totally lush.
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2020-08-10 22:33:51 lukee kevinsan: just saw your re-parsing of the irc logs - very nice. Bookmarked!
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2020-08-10 22:48:43 makeworld Oh yeah, just checked on Deedum and it's pretty nice there
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2020-08-11 00:49:43 griffin Just launched my first site! With a post about my wip-Gemini application server: gemini://gmb.is/gemengine
2020-08-11 01:12:44 easeout nice work!
2020-08-11 01:17:13 griffin :)
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2020-08-11 07:34:10 xq > You cry over the withered leaves of your plant.
2020-08-11 07:34:10 xq > Your plant was recently watered by solderpunk.
2020-08-11 07:34:19 xq i'm definitly not made for plants
2020-08-11 07:35:14 xq time to return and start a new plant :)
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2020-08-11 08:03:38 kensanata The watering of plants for others is such a nice touch.
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2020-08-11 09:19:57 xq yeah
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2020-08-11 11:26:11 rmgr Anybody got any experience with av98? I can see how to create a bookmark but can't seem to delete them...
2020-08-11 11:26:18 kevinsan griffin, interesting. a canocical API reference would help clarify the framework's boundaries
2020-08-11 11:29:29 kevinsan rmgr, vi ~/.config/av98/bookmarks.gmi
2020-08-11 11:31:49 rmgr kevinsan: neat! Thanks!
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2020-08-11 16:57:57 companion_cube Cadey: https://github.com/Geal/generic-http-client/tree/master/src
2020-08-11 17:07:29 griffin kevinsan: the docs could definitely use some love ha
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2020-08-11 18:40:53 makeworld Now that I found Bleve (https://blevesearch.com) I'm tempted to reimplement GUS in Go ;)
2020-08-11 18:42:08 companion_cube what's it based on right now?
2020-08-11 18:42:44 makeworld It's written in Python and uses Whoosh: https://whoosh.readthedocs.io/en/latest/
2020-08-11 18:42:58 makeworld Which is a great tool afaik, no shade to GUS or anything
2020-08-11 18:43:29 xj9 thinking about writing a gemini client and server in limbo
2020-08-11 18:43:37 companion_cube pure python? :s
2020-08-11 18:43:51 companion_cube I don't know enough about search engines
2020-08-11 18:44:05 companion_cube but sqlite has full-text search, and I think I'd go for that first
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2020-08-11 18:44:29 makeworld The problem is there's all these algos you have to implement
2020-08-11 18:44:33 xj9 python isn't bad for scraping web pages tbh
2020-08-11 18:44:39 makeworld Search is pretty complicated
2020-08-11 18:45:12 makeworld I wouldn't be surprised if Whoosh uses sqlite's FTS in the background, then applies lots of other things
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2020-08-11 18:45:19 lukee bleeve looks pretty nifty
2020-08-11 18:46:42 lukee it would be nice to have some kind of "deep history" you can search. Like "I know I read a page about X last week, but for the life of me I cannot remember where..."
2020-08-11 18:46:59 makeworld Hey we were sorta discussing that on the mailing list
2020-08-11 18:46:59 lukee I mean, integrated into a client
2020-08-11 18:47:10 lukee yes I saw that
2020-08-11 18:47:14 makeworld If you have a proxy, the proxy can store all the pages and do that
2020-08-11 18:47:29 makeworld Personally I wouldn't want that in a client for storage reasons
2020-08-11 18:47:37 makeworld But I guess you could run the proxy locally
2020-08-11 18:47:42 lukee what some kind of personal proxy?
2020-08-11 18:48:01 makeworld Yeah
2020-08-11 18:48:38 lukee wouldnt it be complex to implement certificates and input behaviours?
2020-08-11 18:49:19 xj9 something like http://www.httrack.com/proxytrack/ ?
2020-08-11 18:49:21 lukee anyway storage is cheap, its got to get stored somewhere
2020-08-11 18:49:58 lukee if it is a personal proxy, doesnt really matter if it is in the client or MyGeminiProxy (TM)
2020-08-11 18:50:54 xj9 that type of cache would be really nice for offline browsing
2020-08-11 18:51:03 companion_cube makeworld: ah right, python ships with sqlite
2020-08-11 18:51:11 companion_cube so it could qualify as "pure python" I guess 😂
2020-08-11 18:51:14 lukee httrack is cool, it saved my bacon once
2020-08-11 18:56:23 makeworld companion_cube: Kinda funny yeah. But I think that's a great move on Python's part
2020-08-11 18:57:54 companion_cube I guess, yeah, it's nice
2020-08-11 18:58:03 companion_cube apparently the best language to interact with sqlite is still TCL :D
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2020-08-11 19:00:11 lukee makeworld: what IDE (if any) do you use for Go development?
2020-08-11 19:00:43 lukee I just downloaded JetBrains GoLand for a spin - it seems quite nice
2020-08-11 19:02:44 makeworld I just use VS Code for big projects. And micro for small changes
2020-08-11 19:02:59 makeworld For all programming languages. It's nice to not have to switch to other things
2020-08-11 19:03:14 makeworld https://micro-editor.github.io/
2020-08-11 19:05:12 lukee thanks - micro looks cool - terminal only though?
2020-08-11 19:05:38 lukee so far I was just using Scite, but the syntax checking and code completion/library expansion seems it could save a lot of hunting and searching for API function signatures etc
2020-08-11 19:06:02 lukee does VS Code have a mode for that - or is it just syntax highlighting?
2020-08-11 19:08:21 lukee actually answering my own question, seems it does have deeper support than just syntax https://code.visualstudio.com/docs/languages/go
2020-08-11 19:20:49 makeworld Yes, all VS Code languages have suggestions and autocompletion for API calls, etc
2020-08-11 19:21:36 makeworld And yeah micro is terminal only, it's nice though
2020-08-11 19:25:56 Cadey makeworld: do it
2020-08-11 19:28:24 Cadey implementing a search engine is a good programming exercise
2020-08-11 19:28:44 Cadey i've used bleve before, so i may be able to help there depending on how intense your questions are
2020-08-11 20:08:58 CommunistWolf https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2020/08/11/changing-world-changing-mozilla/
2020-08-11 20:09:07 CommunistWolf What a good time to have gemini
2020-08-11 20:10:32 companion_cube that's really sad
2020-08-11 20:12:50 makeworld Too bad :/
2020-08-11 20:12:58 makeworld It feels honest to me though
2020-08-11 20:13:15 makeworld Cadey: Thanks, maybe I will! I'll ask you if need anything
2020-08-11 20:26:36 companion_cube I'm afraid I might have to find a new browser 😱
2020-08-11 20:33:38 makeworld What do you use now?
2020-08-11 20:39:22 xj9 companion_cube: i feel that
2020-08-11 20:39:55 xj9 i'm slowly moving off web as a platform because this seems to be the direction that the whole ecosystem is going
2020-08-11 20:41:20 companion_cube makeworld: currently, firefox
2020-08-11 20:41:34 companion_cube with some plugins that I'm quite dependent on
2020-08-11 20:45:32 kensanata Just recently I saw somebody angry with changes Firefox had made and they moved to qutebrowser.
2020-08-11 20:45:37 kensanata https://qutebrowser.org/
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2020-08-11 20:47:33 makeworld companion_cube: Oh I thought you meant Gemini browser lol. I'm attached to Firefox personally
2020-08-11 20:49:38 lukee I hope firefox can survive https://gs.statcounter.com/browser-market-share
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2020-08-11 20:49:55 xj9 ideally the web would light on fire
2020-08-11 20:50:28 CommunistWolf yeah, the web is lost
2020-08-11 20:50:47 CommunistWolf mozilla has been super suspect for a while
2020-08-11 20:51:09 xj9 its impossible to keep up with google
2020-08-11 20:51:11 rb100 kensanata: qutebrowser is just another webkit/blink/whatever browser, right?
2020-08-11 20:51:11 companion_cube makeworld: ahah ok, no, I use kristall
2020-08-11 20:51:45 xj9 the insane pace of web platform evolution is damaging to everyone involved imo
2020-08-11 20:51:47 companion_cube qutebrowser is webkit, I imagine?
2020-08-11 20:52:40 rb100 i use netsurf more than is healthy for browsing
2020-08-11 20:52:41 xj9 mozilla has to change to stay in the game at all, which makes me question the game they're playing
2020-08-11 20:52:49 xj9 netsurf is nice
2020-08-11 20:53:40 CommunistWolf it's worse than elinks for me. the CSS is worse than useless when it doesn't even approach intended layout
2020-08-11 20:53:44 makeworld Yeah, we'll see where this new direction will take Mozilla. But overall I'm happy with them
2020-08-11 20:53:51 companion_cube xj9: it's changing in the wrong direction it seems
2020-08-11 20:56:19 xj9 the only way to write a browser is to start 15 years ago with an army of developers
2020-08-11 20:56:23 xj9 can't be healthy
2020-08-11 20:58:15 lukee this quarterly view is even more stark: https://gs.statcounter.com/browser-market-share#quarterly-200901-202003
2020-08-11 20:59:44 lukee Ergo, the web is chrome
2020-08-11 21:00:52 xj9 the web is google who pays the chrome team and mozilla to developing competing browsers
2020-08-11 21:00:55 companion_cube to be faire, they don't see, eg, me
2020-08-11 21:01:01 companion_cube (since I block them in umatrix)
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2020-08-11 21:09:13 admicos i just want firefox without the mozilla how hard can that be?!
2020-08-11 21:09:53 xj9 really hard
2020-08-11 21:09:58 xj9 firefox is huge
2020-08-11 21:10:26 xj9 you're welcome to try though
2020-08-11 21:10:56 admicos i know
2020-08-11 21:11:05 admicos i tried once, and might try again later too, but still
2020-08-11 21:11:26 admicos i wish the sailfishos folks actually documented embedlite so we could strip gecko out firefox and use it like a widget
2020-08-11 21:13:40 xj9 to me it seems like a fundamental flaw in the web platform
2020-08-11 21:13:58 companion_cube that it was a runaway success?
2020-08-11 21:14:46 xj9 the fact that only two and a half browser engines can keep up with the rapidly growing standard
2020-08-11 21:15:21 companion_cube because it was a runaway success and is used for things it was never designed to do
2020-08-11 21:15:53 xj9 good strat for google tbh
2020-08-11 21:16:08 xj9 they own the whole platform at this point
2020-08-11 21:17:12 companion_cube well all they had to do what to out-rich everyone else
2020-08-11 21:17:33 admicos i just counted around 11 "web standards" that had a google employee as an editor
2020-08-11 21:17:44 admicos and these are the ones that i just picked at random
2020-08-11 21:18:26 lukee We need a "Back to Web 1.0" movement
2020-08-11 21:18:30 companion_cube 1.1 please
2020-08-11 21:18:41 djph lukee: back to gopher.
2020-08-11 21:18:43 lukee well, HTTP 1.1
2020-08-11 21:18:56 xj9 eh i'm good with 9p
2020-08-11 21:18:58 admicos i'd assume most people who would participate in that movement would already have sites that work reasonably under smaller browsers like netsurf or even lynx
2020-08-11 21:19:12 lukee but the technology stack before web 2.0
2020-08-11 21:19:41 xj9 plan9 alternate reality
2020-08-11 21:19:44 xj9 no web at all
2020-08-11 21:19:56 companion_cube or oberon alternate reality maybe
2020-08-11 21:19:58 companion_cube no C at all ♥
2020-08-11 21:20:09 xj9 yeah alright
2020-08-11 21:20:17 lukee djph: much as I like gopher, it is not possible to completely put the web genie back in the bottle
2020-08-11 21:20:30 djph companion_cube: no C? are you a madman?
2020-08-11 21:20:38 djph lukee: oh I know :)
2020-08-11 21:20:55 xj9 no C is ideal world honestly
2020-08-11 21:21:38 makeworld Lol
2020-08-11 21:22:02 lukee it would be tied to a "green IT" movement: "Reduce your carbon footprint and rediscover the essence of the web"
2020-08-11 21:22:28 companion_cube djph: no, I'd be so happy about that
2020-08-11 21:22:37 companion_cube C was a big step backward
2020-08-11 21:27:37 lukee I sort of blame CSS even though I think it is amazing
2020-08-11 21:28:06 lukee there is now the expectation by content providers that you completely control the user experience
2020-08-11 21:28:52 admicos honestly, CSS but just the layout parts (flex and grid) would be just fine. the rest of the styling should be done my the user
2020-08-11 21:29:04 lukee the counter to this, which is one of the things I really like about Gemini is that there is no styling
2020-08-11 21:29:12 lukee just semantics
2020-08-11 21:30:01 lukee before CSS there was the <font> tag...
2020-08-11 21:30:28 admicos <body background=chucknorris>
2020-08-11 21:30:34 admicos bgcolor*
2020-08-11 21:32:31 djph companion_cube: as compared to what ... ?
2020-08-11 21:33:33 companion_cube as compared to basically any other language in existence, imho, but even back then that'd include algol
2020-08-11 21:34:57 lukee C is just assembler with macros, masquerading as a high level language imo
2020-08-11 21:37:28 companion_cube then you should use an assembler, not C :D
2020-08-11 21:37:49 lukee rather not use either TBH
2020-08-11 21:37:51 companion_cube (I mean something with macros, sure, but without a syntax that pretents to be a high level language)
2020-08-11 21:37:54 companion_cube yeah
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2020-08-11 22:34:58 kevinsan the problem with the current web is separating the few remaining grains of wheat from the mountain of chaff.
2020-08-11 22:35:12 djph kevinsan: it's not even worth it
2020-08-11 22:36:04 kevinsan we could reboot http by running a server on e.g. port 1993, which would make it easy to know the site you're visiting is not Hello magazine, etc.
2020-08-11 22:36:47 kevinsan i share the suspicion that web 'evolution' has the convenient side-effect of outpacing any meaningful collaborative effort.
2020-08-11 22:37:38 kevinsan so starting with the good bits and throwing away the nonsense might make a browser for the port 1993 web a viable proposition.
2020-08-11 22:39:33 kevinsan i don't dislike CSS; layout is important for some domains. I don't even dislike JavaScript - it's not so much the tech as how it is being used. A lot of that is because the browser allows it.
2020-08-11 22:39:44 admicos instead of "throwing away", we i'd say we should "build up".
2020-08-11 22:40:12 admicos let's start with semantic html elements like main,section,article,etc..
2020-08-11 22:40:17 admicos then _some_ styling
2020-08-11 22:40:31 admicos that way we won't keep anything "just in case"
2020-08-11 22:41:47 kevinsan admicos, exactly - pare back to the essential stuff and see what else we really miss.
2020-08-11 22:44:25 kevinsan i like the idea of having an http server right beside my Gemini server - they can work hand in hand (file serving, streaming, form handling)
2020-08-11 22:46:32 companion_cube I mean, if it's for hobbyist stuff, gemini is sufficient anyway
2020-08-11 22:46:51 companion_cube a subset of http/html will inevitably suffer feature creep
2020-08-11 22:49:20 login isn't that gemini though?
2020-08-11 22:49:24 login but with a different format
2020-08-11 22:50:36 companion_cube http1.1 is much more advanced already
2020-08-11 22:51:01 kevinsan sort of, yes - a subtle difference is that there's no 'crap gemini' corresponding to our 'crap web'. I'd argue that feature creep is less tempting when you already have full-blown HTTP servers at your disposal
2020-08-11 22:52:16 kevinsan I'm more worried about feature creep in Gemini - I'd like it to evolve; maybe not as fast as Gopher, but something approaching that ;)
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2020-08-11 23:59:50 makeworld I'm kinda okay with Gemini being simple and the web being complicated
2020-08-12 00:00:05 makeworld The state of the web is not great, but I retreat to Gemini when I want to
2020-08-12 00:00:23 makeworld I'm not sure how much value there is in trying to create a restricted HTML standard
2020-08-12 00:07:25 makeworld Easy to grow, and it doesn't seem worth the work
2020-08-12 00:07:48 makeworld I'd probably just want to use Firefox to browse it, at which point all the SafeWeb things start to come in
2020-08-12 00:09:10 makeworld If anyone doesn't know what I'm talking about: gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/~solderpunk/gemlog/why-not-just-use-a-subset-of-http-and-html.gmi
2020-08-12 00:09:21 makeworld Anyone wanting to make a HTML/HTTP subset should read that first
2020-08-12 00:23:39 admicos unrelated :: i wish kristall had horizontal padding independent of vertical padding, i have to grow the panels on the sides to actually read text how i want to
2020-08-12 00:24:24 admicos i tried implementing it myself a couple of times, but qt docs are horrible and it seemed like you just couldn't do it unless you were willing to mess around with the container that contains the text box the page is rendered in
2020-08-12 00:25:09 easeout i dig that, makeworld. i like knowing that if i go to a gemini:// URL it's likely to be fast, small, all content, not monetized, no script
2020-08-12 00:25:12 companion_cube has solderpunk left?
2020-08-12 02:33:29 makeworld admicos: Make an issue! :)
2020-08-12 02:33:39 makeworld easeout: Exactly, yeah
2020-08-12 02:33:50 admicos makeworld: good call, i should
2020-08-12 02:34:05 makeworld companion_cube: Not sure what you mean. He's not on IRC right now, but he's still active online and with the project
2020-08-12 02:37:08 companion_cube ah, ok. I was wondering if he quit IRC.
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2020-08-12 02:40:55 makeworld He just doesn't use it much
2020-08-12 02:40:58 makeworld He's been on here a few times
2020-08-12 02:41:49 epoch ?
2020-08-12 02:41:51 epoch o/
2020-08-12 02:42:12 epoch who you talking about? solderpunk?
2020-08-12 02:47:15 makeworld Yes
2020-08-12 02:47:21 makeworld companion_cube> has solderpunk left?
2020-08-12 03:02:34 epoch https://tilde.zone/@solderpunk if you want to stalk him. :P
2020-08-12 03:04:23 companion_cube yeah I know, that's why I wonder why not IRC :p
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2020-08-12 03:15:34 makeworld Night y'all
2020-08-12 03:15:42 epoch g'night
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2020-08-12 05:31:57 epoch https://hackers.town/@vortex_egg/104674600268113963 :P
2020-08-12 05:32:05 epoch should I have @solderpunk?
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2020-08-12 13:11:32 Nalaph how long do you think it'll be before we get the gemini equivilent of HTTP code 418? I'm mildly convinced that no protocol is complete without having at least one inside joke.
2020-08-12 13:12:18 djph Probably a long while. I think the codes are only up to around 50 or 60 right now
2020-08-12 13:14:12 xq lol
2020-08-12 13:14:16 xq djph is definitly not a teapot
2020-08-12 13:15:14 djph xq: hehe, I mean I'm all for the silly ones. Just going to be kind of hard to slip them in, given 2-digit error codes
2020-08-12 13:15:18 djph s/error/status/
2020-08-12 13:15:36 djph (also, it was kind of tongue in cheek, if that wasn't clear)
2020-08-12 13:22:24 tildebeast i installed molly-brown under my own user account on my freebsd server. anything to stop me copying it from my go-lang bin directory to somewhere like /usr/local/bin so that my 'gemini-server' user can find it? Or will something go kerpluey?
2020-08-12 13:22:41 tildebeast by 'it' i mean the compiled executable, sorry
2020-08-12 13:27:42 tildebeast well, just tried it and nothing blew up so far :)
2020-08-12 13:30:55 @tomasino i think there's something weird wiht go path you need to do
2020-08-12 13:31:16 @tomasino normally
2020-08-12 13:31:21 @tomasino no clue, really
2020-08-12 13:33:07 tildebeast hmm. the basic copy worked up to a point, then: TLS Failure
2020-08-12 13:33:09 tildebeast There was an error while negotiating the TLS encryption.
2020-08-12 13:33:11 tildebeast The issuer certificate of a locally looked up certificate could not be found
2020-08-12 13:33:24 tildebeast which might be related to what you just mentioned, tomasino
2020-08-12 13:34:06 tildebeast as there was "no such error" when running molly-brown as myself with a gopath set
2020-08-12 13:34:57 @ben iirc GOPATH is only important at build-time
2020-08-12 13:35:54 tildebeast hmm
2020-08-12 13:40:09 tildebeast helps if I add the 'gemini' subdomain :)
2020-08-12 13:40:25 tildebeast letsencrypt is fussy about details like that :)
2020-08-12 13:41:56 tildebeast is institute the best placed to ask about setting this up as a proper freebsd daemon with an init script etc?
2020-08-12 13:43:57 @ben inst is openbsd
2020-08-12 13:44:10 @ben i'm not sure how init scripts differ between free and open bsd
2020-08-12 13:44:19 tildebeast nor me :)
2020-08-12 13:44:27 @ben you might like to have a look at some of june's software
2020-08-12 13:44:34 @ben https://git.causal.agency
2020-08-12 13:44:44 @ben she targets freebsd primarily
2020-08-12 13:44:57 tildebeast great, thanks ben
2020-08-12 13:45:16 @ben she's usually in #meta if you want to ask questions
2020-08-12 13:46:55 tildebeast will do!
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2020-08-12 14:06:47 ~tiwesdaeg tildebeast: I have an rc script working for mollybrown
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2020-08-12 14:51:04 Cadey changing keyboard layouts is hard
2020-08-12 15:01:32 makeworld https://github.com/makeworld-the-better-one/gemget/releases/tag/v1.5.0
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2020-08-12 15:29:56 @tomasino permanently changing or like, swapping?
2020-08-12 15:41:01 acdw morning all ! I hope it's okay I dumped a giant reply post to many missives over the weekend yesterday
2020-08-12 15:41:06 acdw (can you parse that sentence? lol)
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2020-08-12 16:02:08 djph acdw: no
2020-08-12 16:03:20 acdw haha
2020-08-12 16:03:41 acdw I posted a giant reply to a bunch of different weekend posts to my capsule
2020-08-12 16:03:49 acdw maybe you did understand and it wasn't okay
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2020-08-12 17:02:26 tildebeast all kinda working now with molly-brown on my freebsd server, startup script included :)
2020-08-12 17:03:38 acdw nice!
2020-08-12 17:03:42 tildebeast molly_brown_enable="OHMYHGOODNESSYES"
2020-08-12 17:04:06 tildebeast must do a write-up before i forget everything
2020-08-12 17:04:26 acdw link here plz!
2020-08-12 17:04:36 tildebeast yup, will do acdw
2020-08-12 17:04:48 tildebeast is there a good wiki space for this kinda thing?
2020-08-12 17:05:10 acdw kensanata would probably say transjovian.org
2020-08-12 17:05:19 acdw (on gemini obviously)
2020-08-12 17:05:27 tildebeast mwahaha
2020-08-12 17:05:29 acdw though maybe ... ask? IDK how wikis work lol
2020-08-12 17:05:54 tildebeast just thought it might be better in a more central page than something i bung on my own site/s
2020-08-12 17:06:26 tildebeast actually, perhaps tildegit might be best
2020-08-12 17:06:43 acdw oh yes, haha. email solderpunk?
2020-08-12 17:06:47 acdw tildegit is good tho
2020-08-12 17:08:43 tildebeast i'll certainly email solderpunk anyway
2020-08-12 17:12:19 acdw :)
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2020-08-12 17:57:30 scottjoe Anyone else getting a timeout on gemini://gus.guru/
2020-08-12 17:57:52 scottjoe Very cool griffin
2020-08-12 17:59:21 acdw scottjoe not using portal.mozz.us
2020-08-12 17:59:26 acdw https://portal.mozz.us/gemini/gus.guru/
2020-08-12 17:59:30 acdw (just a quick check)
2020-08-12 17:59:34 acdw but i gotta go o/
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2020-08-12 17:59:59 scottjoe hm. good to know. I'm using Kristall on a Mac
2020-08-12 18:00:44 Sario scottjoe: AV-98 shows GUS working
2020-08-12 18:01:11 scottjoe hmm
2020-08-12 18:13:59 lucidiot scottjoe: works for me with Kristall on Elementary OS
2020-08-12 18:14:31 lucidiot though it warned me the cert has changed since my last visit
2020-08-12 18:22:48 scottjoe Weird. I'll restart it and see what happens
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2020-08-12 21:22:48 griffin scottjoe:
2020-08-12 21:23:01 griffin Thanks!
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2020-08-13 01:59:47 wgreenhouse transjovian is pretty exciting
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2020-08-13 08:06:19 kevinsan wgreenhouse, care to elaborate your thoughts on transjovian?
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2020-08-13 19:48:29 bandali hey folks, i haven't fully read through the spec, but i was curious if/how gemini handles user input?
2020-08-13 19:48:49 bandali are the INPUT status codes used for that?
2020-08-13 19:50:21 djph theres input?
2020-08-13 19:51:54 bandali it seems so?
2020-08-13 19:51:58 bandali i just stumbled upon https://lists.orbitalfox.eu/archives/gemini/2019/000082.html
2020-08-13 19:57:22 djph looks like the writer was developing a way to set input ... not that the protocol _has_ it
2020-08-13 20:09:55 wgreenhouse bandali: yes that is what the INPUT status (10 or 11) is for
2020-08-13 20:09:59 wgreenhouse hi btw
2020-08-13 20:10:21 bandali wgreenhouse, cool. also, hey, nice seeing you here :-)
2020-08-13 20:11:47 wgreenhouse bandali: elpher implements this as a minibuffer prompt
2020-08-13 20:12:01 wgreenhouse bandali: I recommend trying it out in the astrobotany game
2020-08-13 20:12:11 wgreenhouse which also demos client certificate login
2020-08-13 20:12:28 login hmm?
2020-08-13 20:12:56 bandali wgreenhouse, nice, i'll be sure to try it out. would be cool to have a built-in emacs mode
2020-08-13 20:13:37 wgreenhouse bandali: I am trying to teach url.el to respect elpher as the protocol handler for gemini:// and I'm super confused about url.el
2020-08-13 20:13:54 bandali oh yeah?
2020-08-13 20:14:07 wgreenhouse yeah. basically stuff is unexpectedly hardcoded
2020-08-13 20:14:29 wgreenhouse I don't see a super easy way to just tell url.el about a brand new uri scheme
2020-08-13 20:14:40 wgreenhouse not much library documentation either
2020-08-13 20:35:50 bandali ah, i see
2020-08-13 20:36:07 bandali hmm
2020-08-13 20:36:12 bandali could be worth asking on emacs-devel?
2020-08-13 20:47:47 wgreenhouse heh maybe
2020-08-13 20:48:03 ⚡ wgreenhouse will have to test their body armor
2020-08-13 20:48:48 bandali haha
2020-08-13 20:48:52 bandali how bad could it be?
2020-08-13 20:48:57 bandali (famous last words? :-p)
2020-08-13 21:01:09 kensanata I was more interested in teaching eww about elpher and that sort of worked using advice.
2020-08-13 21:01:33 kensanata https://alexschroeder.ch/cgit/emacs-setup/tree/config/eww-conf.el
2020-08-13 21:02:53 bandali nice
2020-08-13 21:04:18 bandali kensanata, do you know if the elpher people may be interested in bringing it into emacs and/or gnu elpa?
2020-08-13 21:04:31 kensanata Yes, I talked to Tim already.
2020-08-13 21:04:44 bandali oh cool! and they are interested?
2020-08-13 21:05:01 kensanata Tim had an explanation but I forgot.
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2020-08-13 21:11:05 kensanata bandali: What I find hilarious is that Tim has a gopher front-end to his git repo written in Chicken Scheme and anybody can push branches onto it.
2020-08-13 21:11:46 ▬▬▶ acdw has joined #gemini
2020-08-13 21:11:51 acdw hello everyone
2020-08-13 21:11:54 kensanata bandali: So, that's where you'll find my branch allowing you to have multiple Elpher buffers, an Elpher buffer menu, including an Elpher multi-buffer history...
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2020-08-13 21:12:17 acdw kensanata: come again about elpher multibuffer?! I came into this chat at *just* the wrong time
2020-08-13 21:12:22 ⚡ acdw runs off to check the logs
2020-08-13 21:12:24 bandali kensanata, nice :-p
2020-08-13 21:12:29 bandali hey acdw o/
2020-08-13 21:12:45 bandali nice seeing so many familiar faces---well, nicks---here
2020-08-13 21:12:45 acdw hey :)
2020-08-13 21:12:47 acdw hahah
2020-08-13 21:12:57 bandali :-)
2020-08-13 21:13:03 acdw hey I have a question for yall re molly brown (in specific, gemini serving in general)
2020-08-13 21:13:17 acdw do you know if I could serve 2 gemini sites from the same DO droplet?
2020-08-13 21:13:43 acdw I could serve 2 http sites with nginx, do you know if there's a gemini server that can do 2 domains?
2020-08-13 21:13:58 acdw or could I do 2 molly browns next to each other? I am thinking the answer to that is *no*
2020-08-13 21:14:03 kensanata acdw: I know that Gemini Wiki can do it; no idea about Molly Brown.
2020-08-13 21:14:18 kensanata Two servers next to each other can work if they don't have the same port number.
2020-08-13 21:14:31 kensanata That would always work, but it's slightly ugly.
2020-08-13 21:15:11 acdw bendali: response code 10 asks for input, 11 for guarded (password) input
2020-08-13 21:15:27 acdw kensanata: good to know -- I figured with the port number thing. it is ugly and I'd rather not do it.
2020-08-13 21:15:36 acdw I'll have to look more closely at the molly brown readme.
2020-08-13 21:15:47 acdw slash email solderpunk -- almost did but then I thought, IRC!
2020-08-13 21:16:00 acdw oh wgreenhouse missed your reply lol
2020-08-13 21:16:11 kensanata acdw: Also, I just saw this in the README: "The follow features are planned for the future: * Name-based virtual hosting"
2020-08-13 21:16:18 kensanata So the answer is clearly: not yet.
2020-08-13 21:16:51 acdw oh haha yes
2020-08-13 21:16:53 acdw welp
2020-08-13 21:17:09 ⚡ bandali really should add "b\\(a\\|e\\)ndall?i?" to `erc-keywords'
2020-08-13 21:17:17 acdw i guess I *could* try learning some Go and like, *contribute* to molly-brown
2020-08-13 21:17:29 acdw oh shoot bandali sorry!
2020-08-13 21:17:41 acdw though I guess I'm not the first
2020-08-13 21:17:51 kensanata bandali: Hah. I also have all sorts of shortcuts added to my highlighting. "kens" "kensanta" (!) "alex" etc...
2020-08-13 21:17:57 bandali hehe np acdw. it's astonishing how many people get it wrong :-p
2020-08-13 21:18:06 bandali kensanata, nice :-D
2020-08-13 21:18:12 kensanata bandali: Mostly people that aren't using their IRC client for completion.
2020-08-13 21:18:13 acdw IRL my name is commonly mis-pronounced so I get the struggle
2020-08-13 21:18:29 bandali kensanata, yea
2020-08-13 21:18:36 kensanata Time for bed over here...
2020-08-13 21:18:38 bandali acdw, ha, i feel ya
2020-08-13 21:18:47 bandali night kensanata o/
2020-08-13 21:19:02 kensanata Cheers! Too bad I have to go now that the room is suddenly so lively.
2020-08-13 21:19:17 bandali for real
2020-08-13 21:19:23 kensanata Gah, America! Even the timezones are no good!!!
2020-08-13 21:19:32 acdw night!
2020-08-13 21:19:37 bandali lol. at least i'm in canada :-p
2020-08-13 21:19:41 kensanata Haha
2020-08-13 21:19:44 kensanata Good night all! :D
2020-08-13 21:19:48 kensanata has quit (The TLS connection was non-properly terminated.)
2020-08-13 21:20:10 bandali woah!! how does one achieve quadruple quit??
2020-08-13 21:20:11 acdw oh is wgreenhouse still around? did a thing with emacs for using browse-url-at-point I could put up on my capsule
2020-08-13 21:20:40 acdw idk!
2020-08-13 21:28:27 wgreenhouse acdw: I'm here. I'm interested in hearing more
2020-08-13 21:29:31 wgreenhouse I do like kensanata's solution but I'd rather teach url/browse-url about it rather than just eww
2020-08-13 21:29:35 acdw hey, okay, lemme copy-paste and i'll send you the link
2020-08-13 21:29:47 wgreenhouse thanks!
2020-08-13 21:32:25 ⚡ bandali would be interested in having a look too
2020-08-13 21:36:05 acdw BOOM
2020-08-13 21:36:06 acdw gemini://gemlog.blue/users/acdw/1597354552.gmi
2020-08-13 21:37:09 @tomasino boom
2020-08-13 21:37:10 @tomasino hiya
2020-08-13 21:37:46 acdw hey tomasino! how's thigns?
2020-08-13 21:37:50 @tomasino not too shabby
2020-08-13 21:37:53 acdw nice nice
2020-08-13 21:37:57 @tomasino sitting on a work video conference
2020-08-13 21:37:59 @tomasino nodding along
2020-08-13 21:38:12 @tomasino sitting on mute while a telehealth company explains how their process works
2020-08-13 21:38:25 acdw oh boy that sounds Riveting
2020-08-13 21:38:50 @tomasino heh, it's relevant to me since I'll be building all the integration stuff
2020-08-13 21:39:00 @tomasino but this is def a meeting that could have been an email
2020-08-13 21:39:01 acdw haha well then yes that's pretty important you're there!
2020-08-13 21:39:11 acdw glad to know those still exist in covid-times
2020-08-13 21:39:37 @tomasino heh
2020-08-13 21:39:51 acdw one thing that's nice about video conferences is you can do other stuff during, in fact it seems almost expected?
2020-08-13 21:40:21 acdw this I'm saying from an outsiders' perspective; my wife does the conferences at home but she's on mute a fair amount and we can like, communicate somewhat
2020-08-13 21:40:37 @tomasino yeah, i prefer these
2020-08-13 21:40:41 @tomasino i can drop it in a window in the corner
2020-08-13 21:41:09 acdw yes! And no one knows that they're the least important thing right now!
2020-08-13 21:41:29 acdw though again, this actually does sound importatn, sorry about that
2020-08-13 21:41:41 acdw I think I'd have a hard time with teleconferencing actually
2020-08-13 21:42:16 @tomasino eh
2020-08-13 21:42:40 @tomasino it looks like they want us to just link over to their platform
2020-08-13 21:42:42 @tomasino which is kinda dumb
2020-08-13 21:44:06 acdw hmm yeah it doesn't sound like an "integration" really
2020-08-13 21:44:09 @tomasino nopes
2020-08-13 21:44:12 acdw like, links is just how the web works
2020-08-13 21:44:14 @tomasino eh, whatever
2020-08-13 21:44:18 @tomasino my job is fixed price
2020-08-13 21:44:22 acdw oh nice!
2020-08-13 21:44:23 @tomasino less work same money
2020-08-13 21:44:31 acdw that sounds like a gig!
2020-08-13 21:44:33 @tomasino hehe
2020-08-13 21:44:55 acdw I mean I dick around on IRC much of the day, or e-shop, so I guess I'm doing okay too
2020-08-13 21:45:07 @tomasino heh, true!
2020-08-13 21:45:19 @tomasino i'm so happy... i changed some kitty settings to make gemini:// links clickable
2020-08-13 21:45:32 @tomasino and kristall picks them right up from there
2020-08-13 21:45:33 acdw :O that I'd love to see!
2020-08-13 21:45:40 acdw care to share?
2020-08-13 21:45:44 wgreenhouse thanks acdw
2020-08-13 21:45:51 acdw wgreenhouse: no problem!
2020-08-13 21:46:03 @tomasino https://github.com/jamestomasino/dotfiles-minimal/blob/master/.config/kitty/kitty.conf#L257
2020-08-13 21:46:03 acdw hope it helps :)
2020-08-13 21:46:11 acdw aw yiss thanks tomasino
2020-08-13 21:46:11 @tomasino simple as that
2020-08-13 21:46:25 acdw oh wow, that's so easy. I haven't even really looked into kitty settings
2020-08-13 21:46:37 acdw that's going in my work-notes email
2020-08-13 21:46:42 @tomasino heh, yeah, right?
2020-08-13 21:46:56 @tomasino i was just browsing the boilerplate settings one day and saw that and tried it
2020-08-13 21:46:59 @tomasino works fine
2020-08-13 21:47:35 acdw nice. Now to figure out how to screw elpher into xdg-open
2020-08-13 21:47:39 @tomasino and hey, just read your gemlog
2020-08-13 21:47:42 acdw I'm assuming that's what it uses
2020-08-13 21:47:45 acdw hey! :)
2020-08-13 21:47:58 @tomasino xdg-open or the other register protocol shenanigans in the window manager
2020-08-13 21:48:04 @tomasino not sure which, but kristall opens, so it's doing it right
2020-08-13 21:48:25 acdw haha yes. the bane of every desktop linux users' experience, I feel like
2020-08-13 21:48:28 acdw at least mine
2020-08-13 21:49:19 acdw also here: https://sw.kovidgoyal.net/kitty/conf.html?highlight=url#opt-kitty.open_url_with
2020-08-13 21:49:25 acdw there's a setting for open_url_with handler
2020-08-13 21:50:03 acdw and I'm *sure* there's a way to hack emacs to open a url using whatever. don't know what it is, but I'm sure it's there
2020-08-13 21:56:19 acdw aight yall i'm heading home. o/
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2020-08-13 21:58:48 @tomasino yay!
2020-08-13 21:58:49 @tomasino have fun
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2020-08-13 23:22:24 xfnw tomasino: kitty is fun
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2020-08-14 01:01:17 cyflea here you go wgreenhouse re: browse-url and gemini - gemini://apintandaparma.club/~ajc/log/2020-08-14.gmi
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2020-08-14 07:24:43 wgreenhouse cyflea: thank you :D
2020-08-14 07:25:09 wgreenhouse this is exactly what I needed and a little more. org links is even better, since org is my preferred bookmarking place
2020-08-14 07:33:46 cyflea ah, no worries! yeah, next steps are to work out how to make 'org-store-link' work properly
2020-08-14 07:54:49 cyflea alright, first pass at /that/ done if you reload the same article.
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2020-08-14 20:29:14 acdw oh shoot I actually have a *very* important question
2020-08-14 20:29:27 acdw so I'm going to try and setup my personal geminispace this weekend
2020-08-14 20:29:43 acdw (on my own domain) and I'm thinking about possibly using a subdomain.
2020-08-14 20:30:00 acdw question is: what subdomain should I use!? 'gem' or 'gemini' is tired imo
2020-08-14 20:31:30 CommunistWolf it's got its own port, so I'm not sure I'd bother with a subdomain
2020-08-14 20:35:48 acdw oh there might be a way for me to not use a non-standard port, i got an email detailing the method with nginx routing stuff around
2020-08-14 20:36:27 acdw I *kind of* like NQ2 (since that's the gemini constellation's quadrant in the sky), but I'm not sure
2020-08-14 20:37:07 @tomasino gemini-streaming-should-be-a-thing.acdw.net
2020-08-14 20:37:08 acdw esp. since 'www' is world wide web, i.e. http
2020-08-14 20:37:17 acdw tomasino lolol
2020-08-14 20:37:30 acdw you're pro-streaming then, eh?
2020-08-14 20:37:50 admicos make it ten.wdca.acdw.net so it still works when you write it backwards
2020-08-14 20:37:53 acdw watching that debate has been interesting for me, since I have no real opinion on the matter
2020-08-14 20:37:59 acdw ooh admicos i like that lol
2020-08-14 20:38:09 acdw teh mirror zone
2020-08-14 20:38:10 kevinsan gemini-was-never-intended-for-steaming.susa.net
2020-08-14 20:38:32 acdw I keep clicking all these links like they're going to go somewhere
2020-08-14 20:39:14 kevinsan ok, so now I'm actually going to have to create that, and put a whole ranty page up dissing the idea. No comments section :)
2020-08-14 20:39:22 acdw I'd read that for sure!
2020-08-14 20:39:38 @tomasino i am pro streaming, yes
2020-08-14 20:39:53 @tomasino if we aren't gonna do it with a status code, i think a mime-type would be good
2020-08-14 20:40:00 @tomasino text/gemini+stream
2020-08-14 20:40:31 acdw what would you stream? that one telnet of A New Hope?
2020-08-14 20:40:36 kevinsan i think if the convention was to identify a steam in the URL, then that would at least give prior warning.
2020-08-14 20:41:02 admicos we need ansi escapes in gemini so we can do a new hope on gemini
2020-08-14 20:41:07 kevinsan ascii animated manga - is that a think, i wonder?
2020-08-14 20:41:08 acdw like */stream/* ?
2020-08-14 20:41:14 kevinsan s/think/thing/
2020-08-14 20:41:15 acdw ascii Akira
2020-08-14 20:41:16 admicos geminis://
2020-08-14 20:41:38 acdw Asciira
2020-08-14 20:41:43 @tomasino the irc thing is a good example, or logs
2020-08-14 20:41:45 acdw Ansira
2020-08-14 20:41:56 acdw tomasino you can just spam Refresh
2020-08-14 20:41:58 acdw :P
2020-08-14 20:42:01 @tomasino especially if you bundle it with solderpunk's micro-gemini services idea
2020-08-14 20:42:23 kevinsan what are micro-gemini services?
2020-08-14 20:42:56 @tomasino oh boy, i can't explain it well, but solderpunk did a big write up on his gemlog and the mailinglist a while back
2020-08-14 20:43:04 @tomasino anyone remember where that might be?
2020-08-14 20:43:12 acdw I think it's here? gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/users/solderpunk/gemlog/a-vision-for-gemini-applications.gmi
2020-08-14 20:43:16 kevinsan I'll ask Gus
2020-08-14 20:43:27 acdw ^ yeah that's it
2020-08-14 20:43:33 @tomasino yeah!
2020-08-14 20:43:37 acdw HTTP mirror https://portal.mozz.us/gemini/gemini.circumlunar.space/users/solderpunk/gemlog/a-vision-for-gemini-applications.gmi
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2020-08-14 20:57:40 kevinsan I can't grok the grammar here: (I know what CSRF is) "The threat of CSRF arises when you use a client which is authorised to do something consequential at site A to also consume content originating from site B."
2020-08-14 20:59:36 kevinsan ok, i got it now. "The threat of CSRF arises when you use a client, which is authorised to do something consequential at site A, to also consume content originating from site B."
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2020-08-14 21:14:37 xj9 owo i like
2020-08-14 21:15:01 xj9 the again, i tend to lean in a similar direction to solderpunk
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2020-08-14 21:15:56 lukee kevinsan: can I put in a feature request for your IRC CGI script?
2020-08-14 21:16:22 lukee that you have a URL parameter to allow the listing to be reversed - i.e. latest items from the top
2020-08-14 21:17:06 lukee for example like gemini://gemini.susa.net/news.gmi which has the latest items at the top
2020-08-14 21:17:37 lukee for my sins, I'm so used to the latest things being at the top of a list.
2020-08-14 21:18:09 lukee so you might have for example gemini://gemini.susa.net/cgi-bin/gemini-irc?reversed as an option
2020-08-14 21:18:34 kevinsan lukee, I did think about doing that, I think it makes sense for the purpose (quick glance at updates)
2020-08-14 21:19:48 lukee I think it would only need the per-user entries reversed, not the entries within the user chunk.
2020-08-14 21:20:21 lukee So a bit like top posted email, dare I say it without cowering
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2020-08-14 21:48:40 kevinsan tomasino, could streaming work by convention? that is, if the request is /mysyslog.stream, then a client could just choose not to time out?
2020-08-14 21:50:21 acdw I don't see why not
2020-08-14 21:50:28 kevinsan that way, the spec needn't change, clients can avoid streams, but clients can also choose to support them?
2020-08-14 21:53:13 lukee ultimately there is no difference between a very slow feed and a stream
2020-08-14 21:53:29 acdw +1
2020-08-14 21:53:31 lukee whether you time out waiting for the end or not is up to you
2020-08-14 21:53:37 kevinsan there is - there's intent.
2020-08-14 21:53:57 kevinsan a slow feed intends to give you 100%, a stream is infinite.
2020-08-14 21:55:31 lukee personally I've never really understood the purpose of streaming gemini, which is primarily a page based delivery protocol
2020-08-14 21:56:00 lukee if it is to see an updated streamed log, why not use IRC which is designed for this
2020-08-14 21:57:17 lukee I cant see what the other use cases are - am I missing something?
2020-08-14 21:57:19 acdw moar protocols!
2020-08-14 21:57:30 acdw pisces:// for streaming
2020-08-14 21:57:39 kevinsan i see the use in it, and i don't see a reason to limit what gets done on the port. i don't like having to make a request to discover that I don't want something.
2020-08-14 21:58:23 lukee but you have to design a protocol with a mode of use in mind - what is that mode?
2020-08-14 21:58:59 lukee also I dont know what you mean when you say "i don't like having to make a request to discover that I don't want something"
2020-08-14 22:00:40 kevinsan suppose there's a URL that's intended as a stream (the server will never close the connection). I can't know that it will do that until I make the request and either hit a timeout or get a (newly invented) response code.
2020-08-14 22:00:43 lukee acdw: what is pisces:// is it a thing?
2020-08-14 22:01:16 acdw lukee: no I made it up :P b/c of titan:// and gemini+stream:// suggestions from earlier
2020-08-14 22:01:36 lukee that is a fundamental ambiguity of gemini not having a content-length.
2020-08-14 22:01:44 acdw like, instead of extending gemini you could spec a new streaming profile which is basically like, gemini + streaming
2020-08-14 22:01:46 lukee so you dont know when the end is supposed to be
2020-08-14 22:02:13 acdw you *could* say that gemini is a streaming protocol, since there's no content-length. it streams until it stops
2020-08-14 22:02:20 acdw i also might not know what i'm talking about
2020-08-14 22:02:48 lukee acdw: I thought it was this (after a quick Google). It looks way above my pay grade: https://www.cs.princeton.edu/~jrex/papers/pisces-draft.pdf
2020-08-14 22:02:51 kevinsan acdw, you could, but you could also say that, practically, it's not.
2020-08-14 22:03:06 @tomasino If everyone built clients with stream as default it would work, but most easy libraries aren't designed that way
2020-08-14 22:03:12 acdw true true
2020-08-14 22:03:23 @tomasino That's why I think a mime is simplest now
2020-08-14 22:03:27 acdw lukee oh lord i didn't make it past the title of that paper lol
2020-08-14 22:03:54 @tomasino Clients are required to server text/gemini, but not anything else
2020-08-14 22:03:58 lukee Also the gemini spec talks in terms of the co-ordination being that the server closes the request
2020-08-14 22:03:59 kevinsan right, but why would a mime make those clients with easy libraries any happier?
2020-08-14 22:04:19 @tomasino Define text/gemini+stream and clients can choose to implement it or not
2020-08-14 22:04:23 lukee so that defines part of the expected coordination mode we design around
2020-08-14 22:04:58 lukee I'm fine with whatever text/gemini+foo wants to be, just not the main content type
2020-08-14 22:05:02 kevinsan tomasino, just declare it in the URL and non-steaming clients can ignore it.
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2020-08-14 22:06:21 @tomasino What I'm afraid of is that no acknowledgment at all will lead to a bunch of different side tests that only work in a narrow situation. Spec it and say it's optional and there's a standard approach
2020-08-14 22:06:55 lukee But what is the use case - I still don't see it
2020-08-14 22:07:18 @tomasino There's been a bunch of examples on the mailing list
2020-08-14 22:07:19 kevinsan lukee, twitter feeds!
2020-08-14 22:07:29 lukee urgh
2020-08-14 22:07:47 lukee what else?
2020-08-14 22:07:55 @tomasino A chat application, streaming logs, real time data, news ticker
2020-08-14 22:08:46 lukee I still think this is outside the core application area - arent there existing protocols for that kind of thing?
2020-08-14 22:08:47 @tomasino All we need to do is say, hey, if this mime shows up the connection is streaming. Display as it comes in
2020-08-14 22:08:59 lukee no its not as simple as that
2020-08-14 22:09:06 @tomasino gemtext is perfect for it
2020-08-14 22:09:14 @tomasino Line based top down processed
2020-08-14 22:09:17 lukee gemtext is perfect for lots of things
2020-08-14 22:09:26 lukee but its more about the protocol I'm talking about
2020-08-14 22:09:57 lukee the spec says you go client request-> server response and close
2020-08-14 22:10:38 easeout is it accurate to say that gemtext is just the killer app mime type for the gemini protocol?
2020-08-14 22:11:00 easeout and if that's true, is there a reason streaming needs to exist in this particular protocol, instead of streaming gemtext elsewhere?
2020-08-14 22:11:31 xj9 gemtext+9p you mean?
2020-08-14 22:11:41 companion_cube that'd be fun
2020-08-14 22:11:44 lukee easeout: I would say perhaps, simple hypertext pages are the killer app of gemini+gemtext
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2020-08-14 22:12:31 easeout yeah i see what you mean; it's not a perfect analogy
2020-08-14 22:13:05 easeout but gemini can send other things besides gemtext is what i mean, and gemtext is the most common mime type … but in the end it is just an encoding and can exist elsewhere
2020-08-14 22:13:14 lukee yes
2020-08-14 22:13:14 easeout i should say a format, not an encoding
2020-08-14 22:13:32 lukee and you can send other content types - like PDF/images if you need to
2020-08-14 22:13:57 xj9 i don't remember, was somebody making a geminifs?
2020-08-14 22:13:58 lukee but the overwhelming majority of content in geminispace is text/gemini
2020-08-14 22:14:01 mmmattyx huh, i was just wondering if people would be upset about sending `application/wasm` over gemini
2020-08-14 22:14:09 easeout agreed lukee
2020-08-14 22:14:24 easeout and i also think the overwhelming majority would remain non-streamed text/gemini
2020-08-14 22:14:41 easeout even if a streaming option existed
2020-08-14 22:15:00 lukee mmmattx: whatever you want I think, its up to the client to decide what to do with it
2020-08-14 22:15:31 kevinsan mmmattyx, i don't see why anyone would object. it's intended for small files, but if you transfer in less time than the timeout, and your server will serve the file type, then alls good!
2020-08-14 22:16:19 acdw I mean you *can* even do huge binary files -- e.g. konpeito.media
2020-08-14 22:17:13 xj9 as long as the client can handle it, i exploded av98 trying to download a 200M tar.gz file off of my tilde
2020-08-14 22:17:14 kevinsan exactly, freedom and choice. just don't leave me hanging around forever waiting for a line of text that's never going to arrive.
2020-08-14 22:17:17 lukee I just realised, I think the other thing I'm ambivalent about the streaming mode is that it is a shift from client pull based autonomy, to server push
2020-08-14 22:17:27 xj9 or maybe it exploded jetforce i didn't actually check, just didn't work
2020-08-14 22:17:42 acdw lukee that is a great point
2020-08-14 22:17:56 lukee personally I think that is an important philosophical shift
2020-08-14 22:18:26 acdw the more i think about it the more i think a diff protocol would be good. keeps it really obvious what's going on
2020-08-14 22:18:39 @tomasino Jetforce has big issues with large files
2020-08-14 22:18:42 easeout you mean like, if gemini begins offering persistent connection streaming, then it is less of an in-and-out transaction where the user sees and controls every request that happens?
2020-08-14 22:18:44 acdw don't even have to download the first line to get a mimetype
2020-08-14 22:18:51 @tomasino That's why konpeito keeps crashing
2020-08-14 22:19:01 acdw oh THAT's why, lol
2020-08-14 22:19:02 lukee easeout: yes
2020-08-14 22:19:24 easeout yeah, i think i agree. that's part of the appeal of gemini to me, that i know it's not doing anything "extra"
2020-08-14 22:19:32 @tomasino User still controls the request and gets one ongoing document
2020-08-14 22:19:36 easeout or "background"
2020-08-14 22:19:57 easeout that's true, if it was persistent but "foreground" i may not mind
2020-08-14 22:19:59 @tomasino It's not creating threads of who knows what in the background
2020-08-14 22:20:04 easeout yee
2020-08-14 22:20:06 lukee instead of streaming, why not just have a polling client?
2020-08-14 22:20:17 acdw ^ that would work, just refresh every 30s
2020-08-14 22:20:22 @tomasino Because the uses may be different
2020-08-14 22:20:22 easeout works for liveblogs.
2020-08-14 22:20:31 kevinsan lukee, it wouldn't work for audio
2020-08-14 22:21:04 easeout very interesting discussion, thanks y'all
2020-08-14 22:21:23 lukee kevinsan: what do you want to do with audio - some kind of live feed? That seems way outside the main use case IMO
2020-08-14 22:21:27 @tomasino If could hook a thermal printer up to a Gemini stream and read back the weather info in a permanent log
2020-08-14 22:21:52 lukee tomasino: that could be done with polling
2020-08-14 22:21:53 Sario tomasino: that sounds cool
2020-08-14 22:22:17 kevinsan lukee, i don't want to do anything with audio (or streaming generally), i was just pointing that polling wouldn't work for that type of streamed content
2020-08-14 22:22:36 lukee kevinsan: ok I agree, its not good for live audio
2020-08-14 22:23:00 acdw poll 14400x a second
2020-08-14 22:23:07 lukee eek
2020-08-14 22:23:09 acdw :P
2020-08-14 22:23:52 easeout if you're getting requests so frequently that you can hear them arrive…
2020-08-14 22:24:38 kevinsan you could probably listen to your ethernet transformers hum and hear the waveform.
2020-08-14 22:25:29 @tomasino Speech-to-text broadcast over a gemini stream for sexy accessible presentations
2020-08-14 22:26:02 lukee maybe video with subtitles is better?!
2020-08-14 22:26:33 @tomasino If you're doing video?
2020-08-14 22:27:02 @tomasino Radio for the deaf on the fly
2020-08-14 22:27:13 lukee spoken by a robot?
2020-08-14 22:27:19 @tomasino No history, just connect to tune in
2020-08-14 22:27:51 @tomasino Spoken by NPR, pipe it through Watson's speech to text feature
2020-08-14 22:28:09 lukee Is this what gemini is for though?
2020-08-14 22:28:28 lukee we cant solve the world's protocol needs with a single protocol
2020-08-14 22:28:34 @tomasino An extremely accessible text based protocol? Yes
2020-08-14 22:28:51 @tomasino We can do this with very little effort and not break anything
2020-08-14 22:28:56 @tomasino If we choose to
2020-08-14 22:29:00 lukee no it does break stuff
2020-08-14 22:29:16 @tomasino I'm literally coming up with valuable ideas on the spot and I'm one person
2020-08-14 22:29:27 lukee I'm great with that :)
2020-08-14 22:29:32 @tomasino It breaks nothing
2020-08-14 22:29:39 login the npr accent needs to be perfect
2020-08-14 22:29:40 @tomasino You don't HAVE to stream
2020-08-14 22:29:44 acdw a new protocol, the one protocol to rule them all
2020-08-14 22:29:52 xj9 9p you mean?
2020-08-14 22:29:55 @tomasino You're client doesn't HAVE to support it
2020-08-14 22:30:07 lukee it breaks the basic client controlled request->server response and close model
2020-08-14 22:30:16 xj9 as someone who is here for the minimalism, i'm actually on board with streaming
2020-08-14 22:30:17 kevinsan I agree, it doesn't break anything - it just changes behaviour.
2020-08-14 22:30:18 @tomasino That's a one sentence exception
2020-08-14 22:30:24 @tomasino It doesn't break it
2020-08-14 22:30:38 lukee it breaks assumptions of how servers behave
2020-08-14 22:30:54 xj9 i will try to resist building a mesh network on top of streaming gemini
2020-08-14 22:30:55 @tomasino If streaming, don't expect close before you process. FIN
2020-08-14 22:31:07 acdw xj9: lol yes
2020-08-14 22:32:31 lukee of course one can do whatever one likes with the transient stream, but the current model is document based, so there is an expectation that the server closes before the content is delivered
2020-08-14 22:33:11 easeout i will say that does sound like a pretty surgical change at the protocol level
2020-08-14 22:33:12 kevinsan that's essentially why i want to know in advance that a URL is expected to be a stream.
2020-08-14 22:33:34 @tomasino Yes, the in progress spec says a thing I'm suggesting we caveat for one specific addition that supports a whole host of cool possibilities in a completely optional way
2020-08-14 22:33:41 lukee if we had content-length it would be an awful lot easier
2020-08-14 22:33:45 lukee but that was rejected
2020-08-14 22:33:53 lukee probably for good reasons
2020-08-14 22:34:10 kevinsan content length still requires me to make a request to something it transpires i didn't want
2020-08-14 22:34:32 kevinsan or that my client can't support (e.g. maybe my library doesn't let me set a timeout)
2020-08-14 22:34:47 lukee but the server would be able to indicate how much content is expected before close
2020-08-14 22:34:52 easeout so, the "completely optional" part. it's optional because, why, as a client you can declare your capability to stream, and then the server knows to behave differently on certain pages? and if you don't, then it still just sends a current state and closes?
2020-08-14 22:35:02 lukee (for the static content scenario)
2020-08-14 22:35:34 @tomasino As a client you get an unsupported mine type and kill the load
2020-08-14 22:35:38 @tomasino Mime
2020-08-14 22:35:48 easeout ok, i don't feel like that's optional then, as a client
2020-08-14 22:35:59 easeout i feel like if i don't implement that, i break part of the experience of gemini for my users
2020-08-14 22:36:15 lukee I'm fine with getting a mime type and timing out or abandoning a non-closing server feed
2020-08-14 22:36:30 @tomasino If you don't support downloading binary files, or loading images, same thing
2020-08-14 22:36:46 lukee its not the same thing
2020-08-14 22:36:56 kevinsan if my client is a ncat, or s_client, or gnutls-cli, or something else, you can't be sure I can make those decisions at response time.
2020-08-14 22:37:16 lukee those are fixed length packets of content
2020-08-14 22:37:22 @tomasino If you're using those it'll just work
2020-08-14 22:37:39 kevinsan no, it'll hang
2020-08-14 22:37:51 @tomasino Ncat displays as it comes in
2020-08-14 22:38:08 acdw from what I remember s_client *does* hang
2020-08-14 22:38:13 acdw or times out
2020-08-14 22:38:21 acdw it's been a while since I checked tho
2020-08-14 22:38:28 @tomasino Not familiar with that one
2020-08-14 22:38:38 kevinsan the point isn't so much specific implementations, it's the principle that the client may not be able to make these decisions at response time.
2020-08-14 22:39:33 kevinsan so the request/response model of gemini is broken without some means of identifying a stream up-front.
2020-08-14 22:39:46 easeout so what about at request time like an accept header
2020-08-14 22:39:51 @tomasino gemini+stream://?
2020-08-14 22:39:55 easeout or that
2020-08-14 22:39:56 lukee my take on it is that there is a fundamental principle that the client is in control and expects a fixed stream to be delivered
2020-08-14 22:40:05 kevinsan then you place the burden on the client to mitigate infinite responses
2020-08-14 22:40:20 kevinsan that seems wrong (and needlessly complicated)
2020-08-14 22:40:31 easeout my take is like lukee's except i could be ok with streaming if it's foreground not background; i would still feel in control
2020-08-14 22:41:13 easeout but i would then want it to be in the spec, optional for the moment, but necessary if content takes off
2020-08-14 22:41:13 lukee easeout: an accept header would help, but we dont have anything like that
2020-08-14 22:41:25 easeout ok yep
2020-08-14 22:42:01 lukee tomasino: you have a lot of experience of gopher - is there any streaming in gopher space?
2020-08-14 22:42:06 @tomasino Yes
2020-08-14 22:42:16 lukee is it widely supported?
2020-08-14 22:42:34 @tomasino There's audio streams and one guy was doing video for a while
2020-08-14 22:43:15 @tomasino It's not common, no
2020-08-14 22:43:21 easeout i could see streaming audio and video as requiring a more sophisticated client than what's strictly required
2020-08-14 22:43:23 @tomasino Just a few examples here and there
2020-08-14 22:43:24 easeout and if it's not common, nbd
2020-08-14 22:43:44 @tomasino Mostly using the binary type
2020-08-14 22:43:45 easeout but streaming _text_ seems like it should be supported more broadly and might show up more places
2020-08-14 22:44:13 @tomasino It would be very useful. I mean we already have a working chat room
2020-08-14 22:44:15 easeout that is, if it's specced at all, it may become necessary to make it nonoptional
2020-08-14 22:44:50 @tomasino It would be great if there was a safe and reliable way to support it that didn't freak people out
2020-08-14 22:45:06 easeout yeah. so what exactly are we freaked out by
2020-08-14 22:45:32 @tomasino The spec says the connection closes then you process
2020-08-14 22:45:42 easeout for my part, i like that the spec is small and i feel like i could implement it fast, and i don't know how much effort this would add to building a cilent.
2020-08-14 22:45:47 lukee I think another protocol, so it is clearly indicated in advance that you can expect a non closing stream
2020-08-14 22:45:51 easeout or a server for that matter
2020-08-14 22:46:05 lukee like titan:// sets expectations of alternative behaviour
2020-08-14 22:46:36 easeout true. i do look to the protocol in a link to know what to expect, especially since there are so many links to gopher and http around gemini.
2020-08-14 22:46:41 lukee I've changed my mind that trying to indicate this in the content-type is sufficient
2020-08-14 22:47:10 easeout you mean, because users don't see it before the reqeust is made?
2020-08-14 22:47:14 easeout -request
2020-08-14 22:47:36 lukee yes, with an alternative protocol marker in the url you know what to expect
2020-08-14 22:47:46 easeout i'm down with that
2020-08-14 22:47:50 @tomasino Gemini+stream://
2020-08-14 22:48:01 easeout mhm
2020-08-14 22:48:04 @tomasino Kk
2020-08-14 22:48:07 lukee yeah, or some other name. Doesnt really matter I dont think
2020-08-14 22:48:40 easeout so if it's like a sister protocol, then maybe if your client is a one day project, your multiprotocol client is a two day project.
2020-08-14 22:48:41 @tomasino I think Titan ended up using gemini+write, didn't it?
2020-08-14 22:48:53 acdw no i think it uses titan://
2020-08-14 22:49:03 @tomasino Poop
2020-08-14 22:49:17 lukee its still WIP, but one implementation is going with titan://
2020-08-14 22:49:23 acdw gemini://transjovian.org/page/Titan
2020-08-14 22:49:32 acdw so.. pisces:// ??? lol
2020-08-14 22:49:37 lukee :)
2020-08-14 22:49:56 acdw or ether://
2020-08-14 22:50:09 lukee acdw: you'll have to negotiate with the Princeton and Stanford authors of that paper
2020-08-14 22:50:10 acdw since it's ~ethereal~ .. and gemini is also apparently a cryptocurrency
2020-08-14 22:50:14 acdw oh right lol
2020-08-14 22:51:03 easeout i'd push for a standard form centering on the family name "gemini"
2020-08-14 22:51:11 lukee Personally I'm happy if these "sibling" protocols are gemini+foo://, but that may imply a degree of officialness
2020-08-14 22:51:20 acdw yeah that's fair
2020-08-14 22:51:25 @tomasino I'd prefer it as well
2020-08-14 22:51:28 acdw but the creative writer in me wants all these fun names
2020-08-14 22:51:38 @tomasino Streaming is barely anything new
2020-08-14 22:51:50 @tomasino It's so close having it's own name seems silly
2020-08-14 22:52:01 acdw argo://
2020-08-14 22:52:02 acdw :P
2020-08-14 22:52:07 easeout as a user i want to understand what i'm using. so one name to learn, plus descriptive variant suffixes, sounds best
2020-08-14 22:52:10 @tomasino It's not looking to work on a different port even
2020-08-14 22:52:16 lukee twinstream://
2020-08-14 22:52:26 acdw all the protocols!!!
2020-08-14 22:52:48 acdw define a new protocol using the protocol:// protocol
2020-08-14 22:52:56 acdw protocol://gemini.1969
2020-08-14 22:52:57 @tomasino I'll suggest gemini+stream://. Seems like the Titan bandwagon is already underway but I preferred +write
2020-08-14 22:53:14 xj9 protocol://tcp/tls/gemini/1969/
2020-08-14 22:53:14 acdw tomasino honestly you're right
2020-08-14 22:53:21 xj9 so were in IPFS land now
2020-08-14 22:53:25 acdw lol yes
2020-08-14 22:53:26 lukee kensanata said titan:// is just a sort of working title
2020-08-14 22:53:30 companion_cube I'd rather have a IPFS like protocol
2020-08-14 22:53:33 companion_cube but one that works
2020-08-14 22:53:40 acdw gemini+ipfs :)
2020-08-14 22:53:41 companion_cube (ie not this gigantic sluggish thing that is IPFS)
2020-08-14 22:53:56 @tomasino Mmm, slug
2020-08-14 22:53:59 acdw hydra://
2020-08-14 22:54:01 acdw slug://
2020-08-14 22:54:08 xj9 every time i see an ipfs chart it has more parts to it i hate it
2020-08-14 22:54:11 @tomasino hail+Hydra://
2020-08-14 22:54:18 lukee personally I preferred the gemini+write:// proposal to titan://
2020-08-14 22:54:34 @tomasino Well that makes of us
2020-08-14 22:54:46 @tomasino Someone remember to tell Alex when he comes back on
2020-08-14 22:55:02 lukee I did and he said: just get on and implement something better
2020-08-14 22:55:10 lukee which is fair enough
2020-08-14 22:55:27 @tomasino Mmm
2020-08-14 22:55:33 ⚡ lukee updates todo list
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2020-08-14 23:26:32 mmmattyx i saw someone mention ncat earlier. would `ncat -l --keep-open --exec <whatever>` work for a gemini server, with ncat's tls functionality?
2020-08-14 23:26:48 mmmattyx i was thinking about linking to a tls library but that seems much simpler
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2020-08-14 23:36:01 ⚡ tomasino is almost done writing a big long streaming post to the mailing list
2020-08-14 23:36:07 @tomasino lukee, get your red pen ready
2020-08-14 23:36:24 lukee :)
2020-08-14 23:37:28 lukee my red pen might have to wait till tomorrow, its a bit late here. But I'll keep an eye out for it
2020-08-14 23:39:42 @tomasino just sent
2020-08-14 23:39:46 @tomasino we'll see how long the list takes
2020-08-14 23:41:35 easeout thanks for writing this up!
2020-08-14 23:43:31 easeout i think you covered the discussion well
2020-08-14 23:43:38 @tomasino oh good
2020-08-14 23:43:46 lukee tomasino: I think your post is a good write up and fair
2020-08-14 23:44:25 @tomasino whew
2020-08-14 23:44:58 lukee perhaps a clarification is that its not just that end users can benefit from advance knowledge of the upcoming interaction, but it is clients too that can take appropriate action
2020-08-14 23:45:32 @tomasino true true
2020-08-14 23:45:45 @tomasino like put a big red X on it and say "no"
2020-08-14 23:45:46 @tomasino :D
2020-08-14 23:46:29 lukee When I was a teenager, my parents briefly sent me to some out of school coaching to help improve my grades
2020-08-14 23:46:52 lukee one of the coaching teachers had a big red rubber stamp which said "BOLLOCKS" on it
2020-08-14 23:47:05 lukee he used it in preference to a red pen. it was great
2020-08-14 23:47:15 easeout that's terrific
2020-08-14 23:47:20 @tomasino haha
2020-08-14 23:47:23 @tomasino noice
2020-08-14 23:47:58 lukee humour has a huge value in education
2020-08-14 23:49:35 lukee I should go to bed now - o/
2020-08-14 23:50:02 @tomasino night!!
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2020-08-15 00:42:15 easeout i've been dating my glog entries based on my local time (UTC-4). i often post in the evening, such that at UTC+0 it's actually midnight or later the next day.
2020-08-15 00:42:41 @tomasino fair enough
2020-08-15 00:42:48 easeout CAPCOM reads my atom feed, sees 8 PM UTC-4 on 8/13, and decides that means 8/14, and that's how i get indexed
2020-08-15 00:43:03 @tomasino welp, that'd be accurate too. :)
2020-08-15 00:43:10 @tomasino sorta
2020-08-15 00:43:39 easeout that seems pretty reasonable when i think about it, but it means if there is no time zone formatting for display on the client in gemini, perhaps there is a suitable default time zone to present everything in
2020-08-15 00:44:30 easeout like maybe i should be dating my posts according to the current time in UTC, because i'm not going to format dates into clients' time zones in page responses
2020-08-15 00:45:36 easeout and if that was just part of the content creation social norms, then it'd be simplest for readers on the whole
2020-08-15 00:46:52 easeout i'm only assuming CAPCOM uses UTC. all i know is it skipped me to the next day.
2020-08-15 00:48:52 @tomasino i just post everything at 0000UTC
2020-08-15 00:49:00 @tomasino i can't be bothered to check the time
2020-08-15 00:49:02 @tomasino i'm doing this by hand
2020-08-15 00:49:49 easeout i have a little static site generator, and yesterday i baked 8 PM into it beacuse i'm usually on here in the evenings
2020-08-15 00:49:55 easeout -because
2020-08-15 00:52:10 easeout i probably need to bite the bullet and use actual timestamps instead of just dates in filenames. then the right answer will just fall out of a format function.
2020-08-15 00:52:42 @tomasino if it is an issue for you, go for it
2020-08-15 00:52:52 @tomasino i'll read things whenever they show up regardless
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2020-08-15 03:28:00 easeout i did that thing, and wrote it up gemini://tilde.team/~easeout/glog/2020-08-15-dates-in-gemini.gmi
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2020-08-15 09:17:44 lukee kevinsan: thanks for the new sorting option in your gemini IRC log decrufter/viewer!
2020-08-15 09:48:16 lukee tomasino: just replied to your message. Generally you get a thumbs up from me, not a red rubber stamp :)
2020-08-15 09:55:10 @tomasino :)
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2020-08-15 10:01:28 CommunistWolf I like the streaming-mode proposal \o/
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2020-08-15 10:26:13 @tomasino o/
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2020-08-15 10:32:38 epoch CommunistWolf: is it on the mailing list?
2020-08-15 10:32:59 epoch ah. gemini+stream://
2020-08-15 10:33:18 epoch hrm... not sure about the choice of URI scheme
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2020-08-15 11:15:50 kevinsan lukee, you're welcome. it's was a worthwhile enhancement
2020-08-15 11:16:59 kevinsan epoch, what would your approach be to identifying up-front that a URL refers to a streamed resource?
2020-08-15 11:31:04 epoch gemini-stream://
2020-08-15 11:31:06 epoch probably
2020-08-15 11:33:16 epoch a + is usually used between two different protocols when one is being done over another, like svn+ssh
2020-08-15 11:34:39 epoch oh. weird. stream is already a URI
2020-08-15 11:34:59 epoch oh. nvm. I read "steam" wrong.
2020-08-15 11:35:12 epoch heh
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2020-08-15 13:25:41 easeout hyphen works for me
2020-08-15 14:01:47 ⚡ tomasino shrugs
2020-08-15 14:14:23 admicos i should really make a static site generator of sorts, i forgot to update my atom feed for an entire day since posting something
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2020-08-15 14:33:19 acdw shouldn't be too hard! oh -- or you could use solderpunk's gemfeed: https://tildegit.org/solderpunk/gemfeed
2020-08-15 14:36:58 admicos i already have a script to generate the feed, i just forget to update it :p
2020-08-15 14:37:14 acdw oh haha
2020-08-15 14:49:39 easeout i had a good time writing one too.
2020-08-15 14:59:19 makeworld Have y'all see the email about flounder.online
2020-08-15 14:59:26 makeworld Looks like an awesome site
2020-08-15 14:59:51 acdw yes, it looks vv cool!
2020-08-15 15:00:15 makeworld Beautiful CSS
2020-08-15 15:00:35 makeworld And it's very cool to see gemtext being used outside Gemini
2020-08-15 15:00:45 acdw haha yes!
2020-08-15 15:01:36 acdw can you access it thru gemini tho?
2020-08-15 15:02:15 acdw hey a vv important question: I'm forking gemlog.blue for breadpunk. but what should I name it!?
2020-08-15 15:02:35 acdw breadlog is fine, but sort of.... generic?
2020-08-15 15:07:03 admicos "slices of bread"
2020-08-15 15:07:11 admicos but that implies more of a microblogging type thing
2020-08-15 15:07:24 acdw haha slices.breadpunk.clbu
2020-08-15 15:07:29 acdw s/clbu/club
2020-08-15 15:07:37 acdw i kinda like it
2020-08-15 15:14:00 lucidiot maybe slices for gemlogs but crumbs for microblogging
2020-08-15 15:14:11 lucidiot hi there :p
2020-08-15 15:14:51 lucidiot sharing one of my favorite text graph packages because i want to see lots of ascii illustrations on text protocols: https://github.com/guptarohit/asciigraph
2020-08-15 15:14:56 Cadey gemini://cetacean.club/journal/08-15-2020-the-source-draft.gmi
2020-08-15 15:14:59 lucidiot because text doesn't have to be just text™
2020-08-15 15:16:11 acdw hehe lucidiot
2020-08-15 15:17:49 acdw Cadey: ooh cool, I like roleplay over gemtext
2020-08-15 15:18:11 mmmattyx lucidiot: that ping graph example was pretty cool
2020-08-15 15:18:11 acdw (maybe that's actually a good use for streaming)
2020-08-15 15:18:27 acdw re: Dungeon Master, how about Narrator?
2020-08-15 15:19:07 acdw lucidiot: yes please! now we just need someone to gemify fivethirtyeight lol
2020-08-15 15:19:10 acdw or something like that
2020-08-15 15:20:29 Cadey acdw: plus it's really easy to convert gemtext into other formats
2020-08-15 15:21:00 acdw this is vv true :)
2020-08-15 15:21:18 acdw I'm thinking of re-doing my whole website in gemini and converting to html for the web
2020-08-15 15:21:35 Cadey i plan to turn The Source into an eBook to sell on itch.io as well as making it available for free via gemini
2020-08-15 15:22:14 lucidiot what is fivethirtyeight?
2020-08-15 15:22:15 acdw that sounds great. i'm still on my first campaign in 5e (i think?), want to get further into RP
2020-08-15 15:22:44 acdw lucidiot: https://fivethirtyeight.com/ is an American political site, vv data-driven
2020-08-15 15:22:52 acdw lots of charts and figures and polls and stuff
2020-08-15 15:25:11 lucidiot interesting
2020-08-15 15:25:28 lucidiot i can't open Cadey's link on kristall, it times out D:
2020-08-15 15:26:45 Cadey one moment, let me attach to my gemini server's console
2020-08-15 15:26:46 acdw it took a while to load for me
2020-08-15 15:26:53 Cadey lucidiot: try again?
2020-08-15 15:28:17 ⚡ lucidiot presses f5
2020-08-15 15:28:27 lucidiot acdw: a while as in minutes?
2020-08-15 15:28:39 lucidiot kristall has a default timeout of 5s apparently, i increased it 30
2020-08-15 15:28:44 lucidiot to 30*
2020-08-15 15:29:00 lucidiot gonna try with av98
2020-08-15 15:29:20 lucidiot lol instantaneous load
2020-08-15 15:29:29 Cadey ah
2020-08-15 15:29:31 Cadey heisenbugs
2020-08-15 15:29:33 Cadey :D
2020-08-15 15:29:50 acdw no it took ... maybe 20s
2020-08-15 15:29:59 acdw in elpher
2020-08-15 15:31:40 makeworld acdw> can you access it thru gemini tho?
2020-08-15 15:31:48 makeworld Yes you can, just not the homepage yet
2020-08-15 15:31:54 makeworld Try a subdomain like alex.flounder.com and it will work
2020-08-15 15:31:57 acdw thanks makeworld !
2020-08-15 15:32:04 acdw found it ... looks really cool
2020-08-15 15:32:40 makeworld Yeah :)
2020-08-15 15:33:10 makeworld Also where is the gemlog.blue code?
2020-08-15 15:34:47 acdw https://git.rawtext.club/sloum/gemlog.blue
2020-08-15 15:35:42 lucidiot why the heck is thunderbird mapping itself to every single http link aaa you're not a browser
2020-08-15 15:36:06 acdw ooof that sucks
2020-08-15 15:36:25 acdw i hate when IE opens urls on windows and takes 100000 years when I have firefox open RIGHT THERE
2020-08-15 15:44:12 lucidiot rename firefox `iexplore.exe`
2020-08-15 15:44:14 lucidiot fixed
2020-08-15 15:45:33 makeworld acdw: Integrate spacewalk if you can!
2020-08-15 15:45:47 makeworld lucidiot: What a cursed solution lolol
2020-08-15 15:46:02 lucidiot welcome to windows,
2020-08-15 15:46:07 lucidiot it's all cursed, everywhere
2020-08-15 15:46:17 lucidiot just curses on top of curses
2020-08-15 15:46:24 lucidiot on linux it's ncurses on top of curses,
2020-08-15 15:48:30 acdw lucidiot: lolol yes
2020-08-15 15:48:36 acdw makeworld: will try :)
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2020-08-15 16:34:45 @tomasino Nice speed progress, Cadey
2020-08-15 16:34:56 @tomasino I'll read through the source later today too
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2020-08-15 16:41:10 Cadey yeah, i'm going to reconstruct a table/graph of my typing speeds that i've been keeping track of for my main blog post about this
2020-08-15 16:41:47 acdw ooh use that ascii-chart thing!
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2020-08-15 17:06:21 makeworld gemini://tilde.team/~easeout/glog/2020-08-15-dates-in-gemini.gmi
2020-08-15 17:06:32 makeworld Was really hoping it'd be about the launch of a tindr gemini app...
2020-08-15 17:06:51 makeworld Although I suppose the Gemini take on it would be just be bios??
2020-08-15 17:07:07 easeout ha, sorry about that
2020-08-15 17:07:33 easeout no, it's about time zones, the least sexy topic there is
2020-08-15 17:08:08 admicos there needs to be a dating app where you always match with someone on the exact opposite time zone
2020-08-15 17:08:22 admicos so if you were to message them at 12pm, they'd get the mssage in 12am
2020-08-15 17:08:27 makeworld Lol
2020-08-15 17:08:31 admicos (in their timezone)
2020-08-15 17:08:35 makeworld https://portal.mozz.us/gemini/makeworld.gq/gus-graph/graph.png?raw=1
2020-08-15 17:08:41 makeworld Look at the spike of new domains
2020-08-15 17:08:59 makeworld Could just be because of a GUS crawl, but interesting
2020-08-15 17:09:46 Sario I think the up and down of the page count is more interesting
2020-08-15 17:10:07 makeworld That's just because certain domains went offline or were moved
2020-08-15 17:10:20 makeworld Like for the big changes
2020-08-15 17:10:34 makeworld I believe it was one or several of kensanata's wikis
2020-08-15 17:10:36 admicos hmm, what if i were to wildcard forward all subdomains into a page that generated links to random subdomains, how bad would gus break?
2020-08-15 17:11:00 makeworld Uh oh
2020-08-15 17:11:07 makeworld Don't do that lol
2020-08-15 17:11:09 Sario Please don't break gus
2020-08-15 17:20:44 vee I think the spike in domains is from flounder!
2020-08-15 17:29:07 makeworld Woah cool
2020-08-15 17:29:19 makeworld How'd you find them, since there's no list of them on Gemini afaik
2020-08-15 17:29:40 easeout admicos: earth sandwich dating
2020-08-15 17:32:49 vee makeworld: a couple of its subdomains got submitted as seed requests, it looks like. I haven't looked at them all, but maybe they all eventually link out to each other?
2020-08-15 17:33:40 makeworld I just submitted one today :)
2020-08-15 17:33:50 makeworld Idk, maybe they do all link together. I thought only a few did
2020-08-15 17:35:09 makeworld Alright so GUS knows of 24, and there are 30 total
2020-08-15 17:35:14 makeworld Not bad!
2020-08-15 17:35:46 makeworld Amfora might be getting its first contributor which is pretty cool
2020-08-15 19:04:23 acdw hey do yall know anything about molly-brown's Port config setting?
2020-08-15 19:04:33 acdw i'm trying to set it on my server but it's sticking to 1965
2020-08-15 19:27:07 acdw nvm, update got it to work
2020-08-15 19:35:00 acdw OH M GEEEEE
2020-08-15 19:35:06 acdw i did it, i'm happy :)
2020-08-15 19:47:55 @tomasino yay
2020-08-15 19:47:57 @tomasino well done
2020-08-15 20:09:40 makeworld Ha nice!
2020-08-15 20:11:47 @tomasino la la la
2020-08-15 20:16:42 makeworld Tra la la!
2020-08-15 20:25:48 acdw :D
2020-08-15 20:26:01 acdw hope to have a good news announcement by tomorrow evening
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2020-08-15 22:35:37 kevinsan Dear flounder: "Gemini is a plaintext format with a very limited set of features." s/very/deliberately/
2020-08-15 22:36:16 kevinsan that would convey more useful information.
2020-08-15 22:37:52 kevinsan similarly with the subsequent sentence.
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2020-08-16 10:01:04 jan I've finally implemented certificate pinning for ncgopher. See https://github.com/jansc/ncgopher
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2020-08-16 14:21:22 lukee just saw this "illustrated guide to TLS" via HN https://tls.ulfheim.net/
2020-08-16 14:21:53 lukee depicts a simple TLS 1.2 sessoin
2020-08-16 14:22:06 lukee session->session
2020-08-16 14:22:26 lukee I mean sessoin->session!
2020-08-16 14:22:32 @tomasino ahh yeah i saw someone post it on fedi but haven't looked
2020-08-16 14:22:38 @tomasino probably quite helpful for this stuff
2020-08-16 14:24:09 lukee lots of soul searching around at the moment about the future of the web following Firefox layoffs
2020-08-16 14:26:22 lukee this one asserts Google will continue to prop up Mozilla to avoid anti trust problems https://landshark.io/2020/08/16/web-by-google.html
2020-08-16 14:27:18 @tomasino it would be smart, but the anti-trust blood is already in the water
2020-08-16 14:27:38 @tomasino there's suits in the EU already and Fortnight's thing about the app stores is gonig to bring a lot of focus
2020-08-16 14:27:50 @tomasino AT&T's suits took 8 years before they got broken up, though
2020-08-16 14:27:54 @tomasino so we'll see!
2020-08-16 14:28:29 lukee Maybe Google might decide to pour money into Gemini instead LOL
2020-08-16 14:28:43 lukee would we all run for the hills?
2020-08-16 14:29:40 lukee Actually I reckon we're safe for now
2020-08-16 14:29:47 @tomasino an influx of money wouldn't really have any purpose here, i wouldn't think. We don't need big teams to create competitive software and there's not an untapped market for turning it into a revenue stream
2020-08-16 14:31:39 lukee They could fork/enhance Gemini, a sort of Google AMP/Gemini hybrid to show how there are many alternatives to WebOS
2020-08-16 14:32:15 lukee ...but actually I agree with you.
2020-08-16 14:32:37 xj9 google wouldn't understand gemini, too simple.
2020-08-16 14:33:24 lukee They'd understand it technically, but not the point of it socio-technically
2020-08-16 14:33:44 @tomasino they'd throw 45 engineers at it and make it require 20,000 lines of code across a massive monorepo
2020-08-16 14:34:58 lukee and protocol headers - boo hiss!
2020-08-16 14:35:04 @tomasino haha
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2020-08-16 14:35:38 @tomasino instead of delivering fixed documents they'd deliver a token that would provide a server-pushable ecosystem that could be updated at any time and changed and is always hosted on Google servers
2020-08-16 14:37:27 lukee I think it will be interesting to see the wider uptake of gemtext. Markdown has become a defacto standard for the technical side of the web, but even markdown needs a cheat sheet and editor support for most of us
2020-08-16 14:37:42 @tomasino and it's inconsistent
2020-08-16 14:37:45 @tomasino all the flavors
2020-08-16 14:37:47 @tomasino blerg
2020-08-16 14:37:54 lukee whereas gemtext - even I can hold the whole thing in mind without a second thought
2020-08-16 14:38:07 @tomasino yep yep
2020-08-16 14:38:24 @tomasino htough, whoever it was that just added it to their wiki already mentioned extending it with a bunch of features that aren't part of it normally
2020-08-16 14:38:29 @tomasino transclusion, for instance
2020-08-16 14:38:39 lukee I like transclusion
2020-08-16 14:39:08 lukee My website system uses it
2020-08-16 14:39:12 @tomasino i like not having it in gemini. since gemtext is so tied to that my instant reaction is to be against it
2020-08-16 14:39:21 @tomasino but in non-gemini contexts...
2020-08-16 14:39:29 lukee but as long as it is server side processed, its fine I think
2020-08-16 14:39:29 @tomasino i dunno, at what point is it not gemtext anymore?
2020-08-16 14:39:50 @tomasino hmmm
2020-08-16 14:39:54 @tomasino interesting distinction
2020-08-16 14:40:05 @tomasino i find great use in it as well
2020-08-16 14:40:06 lukee so its just a server side include
2020-08-16 14:40:13 @tomasino server-side would be handy
2020-08-16 14:40:24 @tomasino cause who cares. It's not part of the protocol then
2020-08-16 14:40:40 lukee not unless people start using it
2020-08-16 14:40:42 @tomasino whatever magic is happening back there is irrelevant as long as the gemtext gets served
2020-08-16 14:40:49 @tomasino hmmmm
2020-08-16 14:41:23 lukee I think there is a role for transclusion *hinting* to the client
2020-08-16 14:41:25 @tomasino i mean, if a gemini server allowed <= lines for server-side transclusion while still serving only valid gemtext... that'd be cool
2020-08-16 14:41:37 lukee for example
2020-08-16 14:42:00 lukee => gemini://url/img.png [+] optionally included image
2020-08-16 14:42:29 lukee the user or his/her client can have a preference whether to include or leave as an interactive link
2020-08-16 14:43:01 lukee but it is just a client nicety
2020-08-16 14:43:47 lukee and the content author cannot expect it to be included
2020-08-16 14:44:20 xj9 I plan to do transclusion statically in my gem capsule generator. I think. I don't want to expose useless links to clients who wouldn't understand them.
2020-08-16 14:44:54 lukee xj9: what syntax will you use to indicate it?
2020-08-16 14:47:52 lukee there are some various unicode "plus" signs like ⊞
2020-08-16 14:47:59 lukee https://www.alt-codes.net/plus-sign-symbols
2020-08-16 14:47:59 xj9 uncertain.
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2020-08-16 15:18:33 companion_cube "transclusion" == iframes?
2020-08-16 15:19:01 @tomasino more like an include that drops the content into a single document
2020-08-16 15:19:07 @tomasino happens server-side, not client side
2020-08-16 15:19:12 @tomasino or should
2020-08-16 15:19:24 @tomasino iframs would be client-side transclusion
2020-08-16 15:19:35 @tomasino or even an inline-image is, in a sense
2020-08-16 15:36:09 easeout so what that means is it's #include
2020-08-16 15:36:21 easeout gemtext response, gemtext with preprocessor source for the server to render
2020-08-16 15:36:50 @tomasino yep
2020-08-16 15:36:52 easeout that seems fine, i just wouldn't call it an extension to gemtext
2020-08-16 15:37:03 @tomasino well, it depends on whether it's client or server side
2020-08-16 15:37:19 @tomasino if it's server side, you're right. It's gemtext (with a bit of extra flavor unique to htat server)
2020-08-16 15:37:28 @tomasino if it's client-side it's an extension
2020-08-16 15:37:31 easeout yeah.
2020-08-16 15:38:08 easeout my ssg uses template markup with gemtext in the templates; it's no different from the server-side version
2020-08-16 15:40:11 easeout client-side imports seem generally like a bad thing though. it throws out that guarantee that i'm only fetching one payload when i go to a gemini:// url
2020-08-16 15:40:55 @tomasino yeah, they were discussed heavily on the ML and shut down
2020-08-16 15:41:07 easeout good move
2020-08-16 15:41:08 @tomasino a server-side thing, though, isn't messing with the protocol at all
2020-08-16 15:41:34 @tomasino i'd appreciate a little server-side include on my end. I'm manually adding a footer to all my posts currently. That could be automated
2020-08-16 15:43:18 easeout are your posts flat files or CGI? could be a simple ssg task, or php
2020-08-16 15:45:00 easeout actually given the way gemini is line-oriented, the CGI could be a cat script
2020-08-16 15:45:13 easeout gemtext i should asy
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2020-08-16 19:41:38 dkibi wooho I finaly finished that usless labyrhint walking cgi :P
2020-08-16 19:45:32 dkibi labyrinth
2020-08-16 19:59:16 griffin I put together an HTTP mirror for my Gemlog 🎉 https://gmb.is
2020-08-16 20:00:15 griffin Also tweaked a bit of the type stuff I'm playing with for gemengine
2020-08-16 20:21:37 easeout dkibi, can i try that out someplace?
2020-08-16 20:25:19 dkibi gemini://otrn.org/updates/2020-08-16-labyrinth2.gmi
2020-08-16 20:42:10 kevinsan that's cool dkibi: btw "You stand in another corridor which connects to small rooms" s/contraception/contraption/ :)
2020-08-16 20:43:43 dkibi thanks
2020-08-16 20:44:26 dkibi :P the usual spellcheck morphs a typo into something quite odd
2020-08-16 21:12:44 @tomasino since i recently reinstalled things on this system i had to remember how to set up gnome's workspaces in the way i prefer
2020-08-16 21:13:06 @tomasino it never sticks in my head, so i wrote it down this time. And, since that might be of value, shared it on gemini
2020-08-16 21:16:16 kevinsan dkibi, I have angered the Gods
2020-08-16 21:39:22 makeworld tiwesdaeg: On fedi? I sent your No Thanks design on there, hope you don't mind
2020-08-16 21:40:00 makeworld https://sunbeam.city/@makeworld/104701080481319763
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2020-08-16 23:17:35 rmgr dkibi: Good work, that's very cool!
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2020-08-17 02:13:56 ~tiwesdaeg makeworld: you can use it however you want
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2020-08-17 08:52:28 ⚡ xq is back at kristall development
2020-08-17 08:52:31 xq *waves*
2020-08-17 08:52:33 xq https://mq32.de/public/3abcc6b5dae20aa8acc5c208ca74de7f6e690e2e.png
2020-08-17 08:57:06 @julienxx hey xq
2020-08-17 09:02:30 xq i'm trying to hack in proper emoji support
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2020-08-17 10:01:48 @tomasino :)
2020-08-17 10:01:54 @tomasino Hi xq
2020-08-17 10:02:03 xq heya tomasino
2020-08-17 10:02:42 @tomasino Looks like my host for tilde black is having issues this morning
2020-08-17 10:03:33 isvarahparamahkrsnah hello
2020-08-17 10:03:45 @tomasino Hi
2020-08-17 10:05:54 dkibi rmgr: thanks
2020-08-17 10:06:00 dkibi kevinsan: did you try to cheat :P
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2020-08-17 10:16:10 @tomasino Love watching these Kristall issues drop
2020-08-17 10:16:24 xq heh
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2020-08-17 12:05:31 ⚡ xq wanted do github actions for windows
2020-08-17 12:05:37 xq everything is recursivley broken
2020-08-17 13:40:02 makeworld xq: Happy to hear it! My inbox informed me already :)
2020-08-17 13:55:05 makeworld Not that everything's broken, that dev has started again lol
2020-08-17 13:58:01 xq ^^
2020-08-17 14:36:57 kevinsan dkibi, um, sort of. yes then, I cheated :)
2020-08-17 14:43:56 dkibi ^^ The message is stolen from from the game Noita. I just wanted to print something amusing when the id is wrong/nonexistent
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2020-08-17 15:59:05 CommunistWolf a deltachat group \o/
2020-08-17 16:18:43 epoch (sent my two cents to the mailing list about gemini+stream: vs gemini-stream: )
2020-08-17 16:23:45 epoch just saw the gemini proxy posts, by makeworld? :)
2020-08-17 16:24:05 epoch I have a gemini server that supports doing that.
2020-08-17 16:27:43 xj9 i was wondering, where does kristall store `about:favorites`? assuming it is a file
2020-08-17 16:43:26 makeworld epoch: Oh yeah? What server?
2020-08-17 16:46:25 makeworld Never heard of delta chat, it seems interesting and weird
2020-08-17 16:46:58 makeworld How does it not intercept non-delta emails?
2020-08-17 16:47:07 makeworld Or how do delta emails not appear in your inbox?
2020-08-17 16:47:28 makeworld Also seems like I made a mistake using protonmail :/
2020-08-17 16:52:02 xj9 delta chat uses a whitelist to decide which threads / senders to show in your inbox
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2020-08-17 17:26:30 makeworld But then does your email client receive everything then xj9?
2020-08-17 18:21:06 xq +dkibi: Noita is nice, i love it
2020-08-17 18:26:01 xq tomasino: nice idea about the gemini stream thing being another URL scheme
2020-08-17 18:26:27 xq i think it's the cleanest, most simple solution
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2020-08-17 18:51:44 @tomasino Group effort
2020-08-17 18:51:46 @tomasino :)
2020-08-17 19:09:50 xj9 makeworld: i believe so yes
2020-08-17 19:10:03 makeworld Oof
2020-08-17 19:10:09 makeworld Makes chat kinda annoying then
2020-08-17 19:15:43 CommunistWolf makeworld: I've been using delta for a year now, it's amazing :D
2020-08-17 19:16:07 makeworld Does your regular inbox not get filled though?
2020-08-17 19:16:32 CommunistWolf no, delta messages are moved out of it automatically
2020-08-17 19:17:05 CommunistWolf you can also use a separate mailbox, or set up a sieve filter / .forward to put the messages somewhere directly
2020-08-17 19:17:30 CommunistWolf or you can run a mail client that supports autoencrypt and read them in your mail client too *shrug*
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2020-08-17 21:05:14 acdw hey everyone
2020-08-17 21:09:29 rb100 hi
2020-08-17 21:14:26 ⚡ cyflea waves
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2020-08-17 21:17:44 acdw how's NQ2?
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2020-08-17 22:01:13 kevinsan Quick ref for Gemini certs and standard shell commands gemini://gemini.susa.net/gemini_prep_kit.gmi
2020-08-17 22:01:37 kevinsan corrections, enhancements, and additions welcome
2020-08-17 22:04:16 acdw oh this is great!
2020-08-17 22:04:33 acdw first thing I saw: openssl s_client -connect, not --connect
2020-08-17 22:06:05 kevinsan I think that's the norm (from man page: openssl s_client [-help] [-connect host:port])
2020-08-17 22:06:32 acdw yeah in the article you haev it listed as --connect
2020-08-17 22:06:38 acdw gnu-style
2020-08-17 22:07:23 acdw oh but it's great. makes me want to do more sh-gemini hacking
2020-08-17 22:07:26 kevinsan thanks - you're right
2020-08-17 22:09:03 acdw sure! seriously this is inspiring me to do like a `gemutils` like `wmutils` or something
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2020-08-17 23:09:46 calamitous Hey all. Ctrl-C.club has been running a test gemini server for a few weeks now. Everything seems stable, so we're throwing open the gates to our community to begin adding their own Geminipages.
2020-08-17 23:11:07 calamitous It's available at gemini://gemini.ctrl-c.club. That being said, is there a good place to post than information so people can find our users as they're tooling around the... Geminiverse? Is that the right word?
2020-08-17 23:20:21 kevinsan calamitous, you can announce on the mailing list (or ask someone here to do it), also submit your new server to GUS to index (it will also list you in known hosts) gemini://gus.guru/
2020-08-17 23:26:09 swinslow kevinsan, is it also okay/typical to announce on mailing list for personal servers? I set up a personal gemini server over the weekend, and wasn't sure whether to announce it on the list
2020-08-17 23:26:17 swinslow I'm new here, not sure yet what the community norms are :)
2020-08-17 23:29:09 kevinsan swinslow, i think the list is low enough volume that anything sincerely created would be warmly welcomed
2020-08-17 23:29:22 swinslow excellent, thanks!
2020-08-17 23:29:59 swinslow (it's gemini://gemini.swinslow.net for anyone here who is interested)
2020-08-17 23:36:23 kevinsan swinslow, look forward to chatting about Zephyr (when it's not half past bedtime for me!) - I kind of like that sort of thing
2020-08-17 23:38:37 swinslow kevinsan, that's great, looking forward to it! I'm very new to Zephyr myself but enjoying tinkering with it. I'll be offline much of the coming week but would love to chat sometime after that.
2020-08-17 23:41:51 calamitous kevinsan: Thanks!
2020-08-18 00:26:31 makeworld kevinsan: Nice! The cli tools for browsing is helpful thanks, I always had trouble with that. I think you could improve your cert gen commands by using EC keys though
2020-08-18 00:26:47 makeworld gemini://makeworld.gq/gemlog/2020-07-06-openssl.gmi
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2020-08-18 01:08:38 easeout => gemini://tilde.team/~easeout/gloggery my static glog generator has a homepage now
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2020-08-18 02:18:56 ℹ Topic for #gemini is "💎 Gemini (protocol) enthusiasts - gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | https://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | gopher://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | publically logged in gemspace"
2020-08-18 02:18:56 ℹ Topic set by tomasino (~tomasino@gopher.black) on Sun, 28 Jun 2020 20:55:49
2020-08-18 02:18:56 ℹ Channel #gemini: 84 nicks (3 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 81 normals)
2020-08-18 02:18:56 ℹ Mode #gemini [+o tomasino] by ChanServ
2020-08-18 02:19:34 ℹ Channel created on Sat, 31 Aug 2019 22:41:57
2020-08-18 03:52:39 easeout where around gemini have i seen a gemtext syntax stress test page? i've been working on vim syntax highlight rules and would like to see if i've missed any spots
2020-08-18 03:53:28 easeout oh oh must have been these. gemini://gemini.conman.org:1965/test/torture
2020-08-18 04:13:43 easeout ok those all worked out but they were for testing gemini protocol clients more so than gemtext syntax renderers.
2020-08-18 04:20:21 easeout i will clean this repo up soon but here you go if you want it! instructions are in the two files as comments. https://github.com/kconner/vim-syntax-gemtext
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2020-08-18 09:16:22 kevinsan makeworld, is there an openssl example for non-NIST curves?
2020-08-18 09:17:34 kevinsan also, may I plagiarise your examples?
2020-08-18 09:19:09 kevinsan easeout, vim syntax highlighting is great - thanks a bunch!
2020-08-18 09:43:17 kevinsan easeout, I moved 'syntax region gemtextPreformatBlock ...' to the last match to avoid further matching inside the preformatted sections
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2020-08-18 13:31:02 easeout sounds good kevinsan, want to send a PR or show the change another way? happy to incorporate it
2020-08-18 13:32:53 easeout this is my first attempt at making a syntax mode in vim so help is much appreciated
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2020-08-18 14:47:43 kevinsan easeout, :15,16d then :22put :)
2020-08-18 15:01:38 acdw morning all
2020-08-18 15:14:41 kevinsan good late afternoon acdw
2020-08-18 15:15:05 acdw hey kevinsan! good time
2020-08-18 15:16:22 acdw turns out wrapping my brain around web flows is complicated :/
2020-08-18 15:17:15 kevinsan web anything is like writing C, but where your users get to screw with the PC register. messy!
2020-08-18 15:17:38 kevinsan what's your web stack?
2020-08-18 15:18:48 acdw ummm nginx
2020-08-18 15:18:53 acdw annd i just installed PHP
2020-08-18 15:19:04 acdw so it was just static files, but I *think* i can do php now
2020-08-18 15:19:16 acdw maybe .. I don't remember if I plugged that into nginx yet lol
2020-08-18 15:21:24 kevinsan i see, i've never used nginx, but have done a bit with PHP on apache. i like PHP. once I accepted the quirks and inconsistencies
2020-08-18 15:22:55 @ben apt install php-fpm
2020-08-18 15:23:12 kevinsan if it's a learning excercise, I recommend you go down the CGI route to PHP. anything beyond that is just syntactic sugar and optimisations
2020-08-18 15:23:40 acdw ben: did that! just have to plug it into nginx
2020-08-18 15:23:44 @ben holler if you have any php{,-fpm} questions
2020-08-18 15:23:49 @ben mhm
2020-08-18 15:24:03 @ben /etc/sites-available/default has an example php-fpm config
2020-08-18 15:24:18 @ben (i'm assuming you're on debian or a derivative)
2020-08-18 15:24:27 acdw kevinsan: what's the diff b/w CGI and (whatever else there is?)
2020-08-18 15:24:32 acdw ben: I am, and I will!
2020-08-18 15:25:05 acdw oh here's a q: is it secure to refer to files outside web root? I wouldn't serve any of them, just use them to store like, pw hashes, etc
2020-08-18 15:25:36 @ben should be, but be careful of symlinks
2020-08-18 15:26:06 acdw okay cool. like make sure they don't link to anywhere scary or that could leak stuff?
2020-08-18 15:26:14 @ben yeah
2020-08-18 15:26:31 @ben as long as you have the root directive set properly it will be fine
2020-08-18 15:31:40 kevinsan acdw, it's really just about how the PHP interpreter is launched. it doesn't make much difference, but CGI is quite self-contained - less environment to think about.
2020-08-18 15:34:10 acdw oh cool good to know, thanks
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2020-08-18 20:48:20 CommunistWolf I wonder if we could get the git protocol running over gemini for clones
2020-08-18 20:48:50 acdw I think there was some talk about something like that on the ML
2020-08-18 20:50:22 CommunistWolf how hard can it be? ;)
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2020-08-18 20:54:53 xj9 ooh git over gemini would be tight
2020-08-18 20:56:04 xj9 really not all that different from git over http i would imagine
2020-08-18 20:57:01 acdw yeah i wouldn't think so
2020-08-18 20:57:02 xj9 https://www.git-scm.com/docs/gitremote-helpers
2020-08-18 20:58:14 CommunistWolf I've implemented git over http more times than anyone could want
2020-08-18 20:58:35 acdw ooof;
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2020-08-18 20:58:42 CommunistWolf it's not that bad
2020-08-18 20:59:15 CommunistWolf since git over ssh is a thing, git over gemini isn't really a priority though, I guess
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2020-08-18 21:43:05 easeout A little more polish on the Gemtext vim syntax mode. https://github.com/kconner/vim-syntax-gemtext
2020-08-18 21:43:32 easeout thanks again for the assistance, kevin
2020-08-18 21:44:26 easeout preformat blocks still aren't perfect; it can get confused about the inside vs. the outside.
2020-08-18 21:47:17 kevinsan easeout, what preformat issues remain?
2020-08-18 21:48:43 easeout ok so i've got a long file with a preformat block in the middle. when i open it, if i scroll down a few lines at a time, it will see the top of it first and highlight correctly. if i jump to the bottom and scroll up until i see it, it may misunderstand the beginning and end of the preformat block and color the rest of the file.
2020-08-18 21:49:52 easeout oh i misspoke. when i jump to the bottom, the end of the preformat is visible in the buffer, and that is mistaken for the beginning at that point.
2020-08-18 21:50:23 easeout if i actually set it up like i described where you have to scroll up to see the end, then it highlights just the one line by itself because it doesn't reevaluate the rest of the file once locating it the first time.
2020-08-18 21:51:17 easeout maybe i should add an example file to the repo to demonstrate and act as a test.
2020-08-18 21:52:02 kevinsan it's ok, I think i can create something similar (save polluting the repo) - though I should point out, i'm just curiously asking - i'm not a Vim expert in any way :P
2020-08-18 21:52:36 acdw A lot of Vim filetype plugins have that issue, easeout -- it might just be a problem with Vim
2020-08-18 21:52:43 acdw (Or you're not alone in the issue!)
2020-08-18 21:54:39 easeout yeah it may be a worse-is-better tradeoff to get nice performance on gigantic files or some such
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2020-08-18 22:14:50 easeout i think this is the answer http://vimdoc.sourceforge.net/htmldoc/syntax.html#:syn-sync-first
2020-08-18 22:15:18 easeout it seems to work right, and gemtext syntax is not complicated so i imagine it won't be that expensive
2020-08-18 22:21:07 kevinsan easeout, I found this https://medium.com/usevim/introduction-to-syntax-highlighting-43fe747426aa which suggests 'syntax sync fromstart' and 'syntax sync maxlines=500 (e.g.)
2020-08-18 22:21:21 easeout yep that's the fix i went with!
2020-08-18 22:21:25 easeout thank you :)
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2020-08-18 22:48:16 acdw maaan yall are wanting me to switch back to vim now.
2020-08-18 22:48:18 acdw ..
2020-08-18 22:49:07 thunk what for? nostalgia?
2020-08-18 22:49:55 acdw hehe yeah .. and honestly I need a good replacement for vim-surround and text objects in emacs
2020-08-18 22:50:16 acdw withOUT using evil mode ... I want to be as emacs-y as possible (and evil effs up other modes)
2020-08-18 22:50:22 xj9 i've been enjoying acme, not quite ready to bring it with me to work though
2020-08-18 22:50:45 acdw can that even *run* on windows? b/c that's what I've got at work
2020-08-18 22:50:57 xj9 acme-sac can run on anything that inferno runs on
2020-08-18 22:51:01 acdw it looks so cool thogh, I had an acme colorscheme forever
2020-08-18 22:51:08 ⚡ acdw looking up inferno on windows...
2020-08-18 22:51:44 thunk what's vim-surround? Is that like expand-region?
2020-08-18 22:52:03 acdw um, sorta kinda
2020-08-18 22:52:18 acdw it works with surrounding delimiters, like () "" [], etc
2020-08-18 22:52:39 acdw you can type 'cs([' e.g. and it'll change "(this)" to "[this]"
2020-08-18 22:52:55 acdw or 'ysiw"' will do 'this' -> '"this"'
2020-08-18 22:53:09 acdw find myself wanting to use it allll the time
2020-08-18 22:53:20 CommunistWolf gedit > vim
2020-08-18 22:54:00 acdw notepad.exe > gedit
2020-08-18 22:54:31 thunk interesting, I have to be honest as much as people (emacs and vim alike) talk about power editing I always feel like I have pretty basic editing workflow
2020-08-18 22:54:39 CommunistWolf fite me irl
2020-08-18 22:55:01 CommunistWolf notepad++ =~ gedit, but notepad.exe fails on a number of levels
2020-08-18 22:55:26 acdw thunk: I honestly do too, but it includes stuff like vim-surround that's just so dang useful I miss it elsewhere
2020-08-18 22:55:42 acdw tho I'm finding that I like the loss of mode overhead with emacs
2020-08-18 22:55:52 acdw tho I also miss the composability of vim commands
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2020-08-18 23:01:42 acdw CommunistWolf: sometimes I like writing in notepad as a sort of exercies in minimalism
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2020-08-18 23:02:26 thunk whenever I find myself "golfing" some editing workflow I think of Arthur Whitney, using something like 3 Notepad.exe windows
2020-08-18 23:02:51 CommunistWolf I've genuinely been using gedit professionally for over a decade now
2020-08-18 23:02:53 login Arthur Witney is known?
2020-08-18 23:02:54 CommunistWolf something like 12 years
2020-08-18 23:03:01 login CommunistWolf: nice :)
2020-08-18 23:03:02 CommunistWolf it's just... better
2020-08-18 23:03:07 login better than notepad?
2020-08-18 23:03:10 login and wordpad
2020-08-18 23:03:10 CommunistWolf much
2020-08-18 23:03:29 login well, if only the world were efficient enough to switch to the better product
2020-08-18 23:03:34 CommunistWolf gtk2 gedit was better, but gtk3 gedit it still very usable
2020-08-18 23:03:39 login but there are all sorts of effects which prevent the "best product wins"
2020-08-18 23:03:41 CommunistWolf one day
2020-08-18 23:03:52 CommunistWolf TBH products are the problem, not the solution
2020-08-18 23:03:54 login one day we will switch to dvorak for laptop and desktop
2020-08-18 23:05:01 login are services the solution?
2020-08-18 23:05:11 login computers on rent, never able to be bought
2020-08-18 23:05:17 CommunistWolf god no
2020-08-18 23:05:45 CommunistWolf services are products too
2020-08-18 23:06:05 login ah, i see
2020-08-18 23:06:24 login since software is a public good trying to be morphed into a club good
2020-08-18 23:06:41 CommunistWolf it's, um
2020-08-18 23:06:43 CommunistWolf no such thing
2020-08-18 23:06:52 login it should ideally be funded by rich patrons and released to the world for free
2020-08-18 23:06:55 login like art
2020-08-18 23:07:13 CommunistWolf that describes the current state of affairs to some degree for FOSS
2020-08-18 23:07:31 login FOSS gets money from big orgs though
2020-08-18 23:07:37 CommunistWolf right, rich patrons
2020-08-18 23:07:41 login 10 million USD per board seat
2020-08-18 23:08:05 login then, we have khanacademy.org, some small donations, but matched by larger patrons
2020-08-18 23:08:33 login i suppose it's better to try to make sofware excludable and rival (artificially)
2020-08-18 23:08:55 login software may not be rival, but software support sure is
2020-08-18 23:09:10 CommunistWolf this model just doesn't seem very robus
2020-08-18 23:09:11 CommunistWolf ...t
2020-08-18 23:09:39 login without it, good software like nitropdf wouldn't exist
2020-08-18 23:09:44 login or foxit phantompdf
2020-08-18 23:09:45 xj9 its not like humanity knows what its doing
2020-08-18 23:10:17 xj9 some people know what they are doing sometimesat best
2020-08-18 23:11:45 login how does one even "know"
2020-08-18 23:12:00 CommunistWolf same way we can know anything
2020-08-18 23:12:10 login what the knowledgeable way of doing anything is, changes over time
2020-08-18 23:12:16 CommunistWolf solipsists are welcome to stop engaging with their own private fantasies any time they like
2020-08-18 23:14:22 login elon musk seems like a solipsist to me
2020-08-18 23:14:41 CommunistWolf he's certainly pushed the simulation argument in the past
2020-08-18 23:14:47 CommunistWolf small minds are easily impressed by big words
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2020-08-19 00:30:18 easeout re: one day we will switch to dvorak for laptop and desktop,
2020-08-19 00:30:31 easeout i've been a dvorak typist for coming up on 20 years and i really don't see that happening
2020-08-19 00:32:49 easeout but to your general point, "best product wins" is a popular misconceptino
2020-08-19 00:32:56 easeout -ion
2020-08-19 00:34:41 easeout for one thing it's rare that you can compare things in terms of better or worse overall; there are just tradeoffs involved in everything
2020-08-19 00:38:11 easeout even if you look at a commodity, that idea of optimization is distorted. we take table salt and try to create brand loyalty with the uh, you know, the girl with the umbrella and galoshes
2020-08-19 00:39:16 easeout anyway gedit is cool too
2020-08-19 00:39:57 easeout i'm not really a vim user most of the time. i mainly use vim keys in vs code. but here in textworld i'm having fun with that text mode experience
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2020-08-19 11:13:34 @tomasino Hi all
2020-08-19 11:14:03 @tomasino {vim,dvorak}++
2020-08-19 11:14:10 xfnw hi tomasino
2020-08-19 11:14:25 @tomasino What's new
2020-08-19 15:15:44 dkibi heyo
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2020-08-19 15:20:09 acdw tomasino: how do you use vim + dvorak? remap any keys?
2020-08-19 15:24:09 @tomasino No, stock vim
2020-08-19 15:24:27 acdw oh snap
2020-08-19 15:24:41 @tomasino I know the commands by mnemonic, not location, so it's pretty easy
2020-08-19 15:25:22 acdw oh yeah --- and j/k are next to each other still
2020-08-19 15:25:30 acdw the rest are pretty mnemonic I guess
2020-08-19 15:25:39 @tomasino hjkl took a tiny bit to get used to, but I move with w/e and so on more often
2020-08-19 15:25:49 acdw actually I bet it's good to get over using hjkl, huh?
2020-08-19 15:26:03 @tomasino Yeah, only rarely want to move one character
2020-08-19 15:26:08 acdw I want to try dvorak but I can't at work , maybe at home I can just do it
2020-08-19 15:26:16 acdw do you have a dvorak keyboard?
2020-08-19 15:26:31 @tomasino Nope, just set the system keyboard
2020-08-19 15:27:20 @tomasino Why can't you at work? Seems like something a service desk ticket could handle for you quick if you don't have access
2020-08-19 15:28:18 @tomasino I'm not sure you'd want to switch at work to start, though. Not until you got your speed back up
2020-08-19 15:28:50 acdw heh yeah. I don't want to ask IT for help because then they might see the other stuff I did to my computer that wasn't totally above board
2020-08-19 15:28:57 acdw (really just portableapps, nothing bad)
2020-08-19 15:29:39 acdw did you have the picture of the keys on the screen at first?
2020-08-19 15:32:36 @tomasino No, I transitioned when I was in religious life and wasn't using a computer much
2020-08-19 15:32:49 @tomasino I did some drills and slow practice
2020-08-19 15:32:58 @tomasino Are you in windows?
2020-08-19 15:33:03 @tomasino At work?
2020-08-19 15:33:17 acdw yep
2020-08-19 15:33:37 @tomasino DVassist is a freeware portable app that'll toggle to Dvorak for you without admin
2020-08-19 15:33:46 acdw OH YES
2020-08-19 15:33:49 acdw thanks:)
2020-08-19 15:33:53 @tomasino :)
2020-08-19 15:34:14 @tomasino I keep a copy in Dropbox in case I ever end up on a windows machine
2020-08-19 15:34:55 acdw lol I know the feeling
2020-08-19 15:35:11 @tomasino https://www.dropbox.com/s/hmma8vzl86e8ba5/DVAssist.exe?dl=0
2020-08-19 15:35:16 acdw that's a pretty great idea actually! I just search for 'x portable app'
2020-08-19 15:35:18 @tomasino There may be a newer version
2020-08-19 15:35:43 acdw oh lol
2020-08-19 15:35:51 acdw http://clabs.org/blog/DvAssist
2020-08-19 15:36:23 @tomasino There u go
2020-08-19 15:36:35 @tomasino The latest version is best. Screw stable
2020-08-19 15:36:52 acdw haha yes
2020-08-19 15:37:00 acdw the newest versino is from 2007 tho
2020-08-19 15:37:11 acdw so honestly your version might be latest
2020-08-19 15:37:50 @tomasino Probably is the same one
2020-08-19 15:38:06 @tomasino It's been quite a while since I last windows'd
2020-08-19 15:38:32 acdw well i'mma try yours since the one i downloaded didn't work
2020-08-19 15:38:54 acdw also lucky you!
2020-08-19 15:40:32 acdw ,.nn cy ,rpt.e
2020-08-19 15:40:46 @tomasino It works!
2020-08-19 15:40:49 acdw abe c erb-y dak. yd. ydcbi gl or c erb-y tbr, ,day c-m ercbi
2020-08-19 15:40:51 acdw rd br
2020-08-19 15:40:57 acdw https://uncyclopedia.ca/wiki/Ekrpat
2020-08-19 15:41:10 @tomasino Double click the task tray icon to toggle on/off
2020-08-19 15:41:23 @tomasino If the D is showing it's in Dvorak
2020-08-19 15:42:16 acdw rd br, cy-o irb.
2020-08-19 15:42:29 @tomasino This is great
2020-08-19 15:43:18 acdw oh i'm getting it now
2020-08-19 15:44:01 acdw the icon went away
2020-08-19 15:46:02 acdw i'm glad at least you're having fun
2020-08-19 15:46:09 acdw :)
2020-08-19 15:46:34 acdw okay i'm bacck to qwerty
2020-08-19 15:46:39 acdw that was fun while it lasted
2020-08-19 15:48:17 @tomasino 😃
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2020-08-19 17:34:20 idf hello
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2020-08-19 18:17:27 xfnw hi idf and wingy
2020-08-19 18:29:01 wingy Hi
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2020-08-19 22:50:38 easeout my exp with dvorak in vim is like tomasino's. keeping the default keys translates to other apps like less, and hjkl are the only odd thing, and you get used to it fast.
2020-08-19 22:50:56 easeout translates your skill i mean
2020-08-19 22:51:14 easeout whew the mailing list blew up
2020-08-19 22:52:42 acdw oh I've been checking it a ton then ... i was really excited to read more great ml content
2020-08-19 22:52:53 acdw i think i'm going to try dvorak at home for a bit
2020-08-19 22:53:41 easeout as a long time user i recommend it to anyone who is going type english frequently
2020-08-19 22:54:52 acdw I do that! English is about all I type! :)
2020-08-19 22:55:17 easeout => gemini://tilde.team:1965/~easeout/glog/2020-08-13-re-keyboard-thonks.gmi i wrote about it
2020-08-19 22:56:28 acdw oh yeah, I read that! it was nice
2020-08-19 22:57:08 easeout thanks, let me know if i can answer questions or anything!
2020-08-19 22:59:35 acdw :D I will! Was hoping there was a #dvorak on here, don't seem that way
2020-08-19 22:59:42 acdw well there is now
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2020-08-20 10:31:04 login hi idf
2020-08-20 11:02:28 idf hello
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2020-08-20 14:52:52 jns hmm darn it seems the Kristall client has some issues with ipv6 - it also breaks completely when a connection fails, all subsequent connections fail ..
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2020-08-20 16:32:41 thunk lots of RSS/Atom feeds on gemini capsules, what are people using to read those feeds they follow?
2020-08-20 16:35:40 acdw capcom/spacewalk
2020-08-20 16:35:58 acdw still need to setup my own spacewalk ... would really like one that pulls servers off the GUS known servers list
2020-08-20 16:36:22 acdw I'd call it "Firehose" ... or "Solar wind"
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2020-08-20 16:41:46 awalvie hey! I recently heard about the gemini protocol and was thinking about writing a simple server for it in C
2020-08-20 16:42:01 acdw awalvie: do it! Sounsd awesome
2020-08-20 16:42:39 acdw I know someone else was trying for one in the ML : https://lists.orbitalfox.eu/archives/gemini/2020/002445.html
2020-08-20 16:44:11 awalvie I'm in a similar boat as well
2020-08-20 16:45:00 awalvie as in I don't have any prior experience when it comes to writing servers
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2020-08-20 16:51:22 acdw haha I know the feeling
2020-08-20 16:51:44 acdw I didn't have any experience with clients or the internet when I started bollux. The great thing about gemini is its simplicity
2020-08-20 16:52:11 acdw basically you need to setup a persistent process that listens on port 1965 for incoming TLS connections
2020-08-20 16:52:17 acdw then respond to them
2020-08-20 16:52:55 acdw check out gemini://tomasino.org/ for a really simple server in bash
2020-08-20 16:53:15 acdw I think the rest is figuring out how to map requests to files or whatever
2020-08-20 16:56:36 idf yeah i didnt really have any experience except basic socket connection and basic file serving for another project, but gemini makes it really easy and comfy
2020-08-20 16:57:09 idf also nim has a bunch of helpful syslibs including sockets with ssl/tls so there's that :P
2020-08-20 16:57:48 idf my main concern is not being able to just "../../../" your way into the /usr/bin
2020-08-20 17:00:59 acdw ^ this is important
2020-08-20 17:01:08 acdw idk what good tls libs there are for c
2020-08-20 17:01:32 companion_cube openssl? 😂
2020-08-20 17:03:35 acdw haha I guess so!
2020-08-20 17:04:21 CommunistWolf I bumped into wolfssl recently
2020-08-20 17:04:34 CommunistWolf it might fit the gemini ethos quite well, but I mostly like it for the name
2020-08-20 17:04:53 acdw lol --- I think there's also bearssl? maybe?
2020-08-20 17:04:58 CommunistWolf wolf > bear
2020-08-20 17:05:04 CommunistWolf ...wait
2020-08-20 17:05:08 CommunistWolf is this a sex thing now?
2020-08-20 17:05:24 idf im currently using some syslib functions that are meant to parse paths in more of a general context, they work for now but i feel they parse too much(after all all i need is to turn pub/urstuff/ into /stuff/ and this function does a bit more stuff in specific cases im afraid of) so i'm in a process of rewriting and retesting all that
2020-08-20 17:05:31 idf after this i dont think i'll add anything else
2020-08-20 17:06:06 idf i dont want it to become too big, and i already got CGI to do the extras
2020-08-20 17:06:16 acdw lol CommunistWolf i don't *think* it is 😆
2020-08-20 17:06:20 CommunistWolf phew
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2020-08-20 19:48:44 kevinsan jns, I just tested Kristall with various connections to IPv4 & IPv6 addresses, some good, some failing, some no DNS, even some with no IPv6 enabled, can't reproduce what you describe...
2020-08-20 19:56:06 jns here's a video of it: http://www.linkerror.com/stuff/broken.webm
2020-08-20 19:56:47 jns does the same with gemini and gopher
2020-08-20 19:58:59 jns it looks like the socket gets in a bad state and doesn't properly get re-opened
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2020-08-20 20:12:35 @tomasino That's a satisfying clacky you've got
2020-08-20 20:12:41 @tomasino And a tricky error
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2020-08-20 20:15:42 jns buckling spring goodness! :)
2020-08-20 20:26:36 jns fwiw i think i figured out the root cause
2020-08-20 20:26:54 jns my work vpn adds some nasty iptables6 firewall rules causing ipv6 packets to get dropped
2020-08-20 20:27:15 jns so i think you should be able to reproduce with a simple drop firewall rule
2020-08-20 20:27:53 kevinsan there is still a client issue though - anything that causes a connection to hang indefinitely will break future connections
2020-08-20 20:27:53 jns this state might be specific to timeouts
2020-08-20 20:28:11 jns yeah i know
2020-08-20 20:28:14 kevinsan i think one solution might be with setting the connect timeout in qnetworkconfiguration
2020-08-20 20:29:14 kevinsan though i say that naively (never written any qt stuff)
2020-08-20 20:29:18 jns yeah that and/or keepalive probes to detect a dropped connection
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2020-08-20 20:59:31 kevinsan jns, this patch seems to fix it for gemini gemini://gemini.susa.net/c/gopherclient.cpp.patch
2020-08-20 20:59:52 kevinsan sorry, for gopher - i haven't added it to geminiclient.cpp
2020-08-20 21:00:33 jns oh sweet, thanks, i can apply that in both on my end
2020-08-20 21:04:31 kevinsan xq, there's some chat relating to an issue with Kristall, with a video showing the issue and a (possibly hacky) patch to fix it.
2020-08-20 21:04:47 xq huh?
2020-08-20 21:04:54 xq where?
2020-08-20 21:05:11 jns here, scroll up :)
2020-08-20 21:05:12 kevinsan the conversation between jns and me just above ^^
2020-08-20 21:05:34 xq ah! :D
2020-08-20 21:06:44 xq ah yeah that bug
2020-08-20 21:06:49 xq i have to find out how to repro it
2020-08-20 21:06:53 kevinsan essentially, where a connect waits indefinitely (or Qt's timeout), the app returns but the socket is still trying to connect
2020-08-20 21:06:54 xq never got it reproduces
2020-08-20 21:07:04 xq oh, that may help, thanks :)
2020-08-20 21:07:08 xq can you issue that on github?
2020-08-20 21:07:10 jns a firewall rule that drops traffic seems to do the trick to repro
2020-08-20 21:07:53 jns (drop, not reject)
2020-08-20 21:08:05 kevinsan it's enough to use the cirumlunar address that you used - port 70 is not responding
2020-08-20 21:09:13 kevinsan xq, the patch in the link above is about as much as i'd be able to offer in github
2020-08-20 21:09:55 xq ah, hmm
2020-08-20 21:14:03 xq https://github.com/MasterQ32/kristall/issues/48
2020-08-20 21:14:05 xq made a issue
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2020-08-21 03:03:31 rmgr I'm getting a certificate error trying to access tannelorn.city, does anybody know what's going on with their cert?
2020-08-21 03:03:54 rmgr Well not an error, a security warning because the certificate changed.
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2020-08-21 03:28:01 easeout rmgr, which client are you using?
2020-08-21 03:28:09 login rmgr: which certificate is being served?
2020-08-21 03:43:00 epoch there's a gmi2html already, right?
2020-08-21 03:43:42 epoch I'm probably going to write pages common to both my gemini site and my http site in text/gemini then auto-convert to html for http requests
2020-08-21 03:44:01 epoch unless people have a "gmi viewer" that they might want their browser to use
2020-08-21 03:44:03 easeout if you're in bombadillo, the "purge *" command will clear the TOFU cert cache rmgr. i reproed your error on tanelorn.city and that cleared it.
2020-08-21 03:44:28 easeout i think there are a few of those, epoch
2020-08-21 03:44:37 easeout i don't know if they are separated tools though
2020-08-21 03:44:54 easeout or just several people's random shell scripts or part of their custom site generator or what
2020-08-21 03:45:28 easeout hell, a markdown processor is almost that, with the exception of link syntax
2020-08-21 03:46:27 epoch I have my own script that converts text/gemini to terminal
2020-08-21 03:47:00 epoch I'll probably make a gmi2html script for myself anyway.
2020-08-21 03:48:05 epoch dunno if I'll use it client-side or server-side or both
2020-08-21 03:50:38 epoch maybe I could change my Accept header to let my server know if I want a text/gemini response, or I want it to convert it for me.
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2020-08-21 04:08:20 rmgr easout: I'm using av98, it does give the option to accept the new cert, I just figured I'd raise it
2020-08-21 04:42:52 epoch alright, have one page so far written in text/gemini that is being served from both my gemini site and my http site
2020-08-21 04:43:41 epoch probably going to move most of my pages to /~epoch/
2020-08-21 04:46:23 epoch since I'll be serving it over multiple protocols, what dir would be a good place?
2020-08-21 04:46:36 epoch ~/.local/var/blog ?
2020-08-21 04:47:06 epoch ~/.local/srv/blog
2020-08-21 04:47:17 djph ~/blog ?
2020-08-21 04:47:44 epoch too simple. :P
2020-08-21 04:47:50 epoch that's probably what I'll use though
2020-08-21 04:47:55 djph simple is good
2020-08-21 04:47:56 djph :P
2020-08-21 04:48:00 epoch until I come up with a good enough reason to no do it that way.
2020-08-21 04:48:05 djph haha
2020-08-21 04:48:16 epoch looks like I already have a ~/blog
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2020-08-21 04:48:43 djph all the better :)
2020-08-21 04:50:04 epoch now to convert a bunch of this html into text/gemini
2020-08-21 04:59:12 epoch what about fragment ID links inside text/gemini?
2020-08-21 04:59:54 epoch there'd need to be some way to say "this portion is a fragment" I guess
2020-08-21 05:01:02 epoch which doesn't really have a good way of doing it... maybe a fragment-only link indicates where a fragment ID would point at?
2020-08-21 05:01:04 epoch heh.
2020-08-21 05:01:29 epoch => #a-link-to-this-place-in-this-text/gemini
2020-08-21 05:02:09 epoch mmm. nah.
2020-08-21 05:02:27 epoch you could end up with "to top" links at the bottom, but not to bottom links at the top.
2020-08-21 05:03:36 epoch the gemini-way would probably be to just make multiple little documents if you wanted a table of contents made of links
2020-08-21 05:06:59 epoch https://compilers.iecc.com/crenshaw/
2020-08-21 05:07:07 epoch someone in another channel linked to this.
2020-08-21 05:21:55 epoch what would be a good way to make gemini bullet-points turned into html?
2020-08-21 05:22:25 epoch have the first bullet-point toggle-on <ul> like ``` does for <pre>
2020-08-21 05:22:32 epoch and first non-bullet-point closes it?
2020-08-21 05:22:40 epoch that's probably what I'll do
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2020-08-21 05:54:23 epoch um, it is probably discussed somewhere, but what am I supposed to do with gemini lines that appear inside a ``` block?
2020-08-21 05:54:48 epoch castor strips formatting characters except for links
2020-08-21 05:56:29 epoch https://thebackupbox.net/~epoch/blog/test.gmi to see what my gemini2html does, gemini://gemini.thebackupbox.net/~epoch/blog/test.gmi to see what it looks like over gemini
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2020-08-21 07:26:52 lukee epoch: to convert html to gmi you could try https://github.com/LukeEmmet/html2gmi
2020-08-21 07:31:25 lukee it is a standalone utility in Go which works cross-platform
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2020-08-21 08:09:08 moody hello
2020-08-21 08:19:37 lukee hi there
2020-08-21 08:21:10 kevinsan epoch, what I did with /^```/ blocks was to output <pre>, then just read everything up to the following /^```/ outputting directly.
2020-08-21 08:21:51 kevinsan hi lukee, how goes?
2020-08-21 08:22:14 kevinsan hi moody, what are you working on?
2020-08-21 08:22:22 lukee hi kevinsan
2020-08-21 08:23:27 lukee I'm actively experimenting in this html <-> gemini conversion space
2020-08-21 08:23:56 lukee my latest experiments are to bring back inline links to text/gemini
2020-08-21 08:24:05 lukee without extending the standard
2020-08-21 08:24:31 kevinsan what's your approach?
2020-08-21 08:25:22 lukee well, a common convention is that people make footnote style references to numbered links like this [1] and provide the link in the following paragraph
2020-08-21 08:25:44 lukee => gemini://example.com/path [1] a link
2020-08-21 08:26:12 lukee So, one approach is to wire up the citation with the live link, and remove the footnote
2020-08-21 08:26:37 lukee or perhaps collapse/hide the footnote link
2020-08-21 08:27:14 lukee so in the above example, the [1] within the paragraph would be an active clickable link
2020-08-21 08:27:50 lukee I think its a nice approach as it is backwards compatible, and it builds on an existing practice
2020-08-21 08:27:51 kevinsan that's neat -
2020-08-21 08:29:26 lukee see here, an example page. Towards the bottom there are some blue citations in superscript
2020-08-21 08:29:28 lukee https://imgur.com/a/Aw772vj
2020-08-21 08:29:50 kevinsan it's sort of a 'client nicety' that encourages better flow in narrative (like a book!)
2020-08-21 08:30:01 lukee yes.
2020-08-21 08:30:20 lukee Also it means you can convert "normal" html to gmi much more idiomatically
2020-08-21 08:30:41 lukee otherwise you are continually jumping backwards and forwards from the paragraph to the link list
2020-08-21 08:33:38 lukee the link density in a typical html page is usually higher than text/gemini
2020-08-21 08:36:09 moody kevinsan: I have been working on a 9front gemini server recently
2020-08-21 08:36:57 lukee so it is possible to plug an html to gmi converter into your client logic and go forth and read a majority of web pages using a gemini client
2020-08-21 08:37:47 lukee obviously it is limited, but the majority of pages dont actually need deeper interactivity beyond reading and links
2020-08-21 08:38:42 lukee and all of a sudden we have a new set of clients ready to "simplify the web" back to what we want it to be
2020-08-21 08:39:08 kevinsan aha, moody, i saw your announcement on that. it's a cool thing!
2020-08-21 08:39:13 lukee that's the theory, practice is... getting there...
2020-08-21 08:39:58 kevinsan lukee, that's only part of the battle - as I see it, the biggest web difficulty is discovery
2020-08-21 08:40:09 lukee what, search?
2020-08-21 08:40:39 moody Ill be honest at first I wasn't sure what the use was for client certificates but seeing some of the uses has really made them make sense
2020-08-21 08:40:53 lukee or content curation and things like RSS?
2020-08-21 08:43:14 kevinsan lukee, i really don't know. search is hard and the surface is huge. curation is hard in a constantly evolving environment. people publish stuff in ultimately hostile environments (e.g Medium(
2020-08-21 08:44:34 moody perhaps scan aggregators could help with finding sites, checking shodan for the right port and doing reverse DNS
2020-08-21 08:45:10 moody although that feels a bit 'forced'
2020-08-21 08:45:15 lukee yeah search is a big man's game
2020-08-21 08:45:33 kevinsan something like that moody, I run an https server on port 1993, but relying on shodan for discovery is fragile
2020-08-21 08:45:39 lukee (well, web search anyway) GUS is great, but gemini is a small universe at present
2020-08-21 08:46:03 kevinsan i see Gemini as a possible solution. it can provide the seeds into the web content that's worth knowing about.
2020-08-21 08:46:50 lukee exactly - and in general the things gemini authors will link to will be mostly "sane" content, not pointers into walled gardens
2020-08-21 08:47:42 kevinsan i've just created a page called web_worth_preserving.gmi - it will simply list links to stuff that I think is, um, worth knowing about.
2020-08-21 08:47:48 lukee so I see it as there being an outer periphery of resources linked from gemini that should be generally accessible
2020-08-21 08:48:10 lukee so, how long is that page ;)
2020-08-21 08:48:18 kevinsan it has one link :D
2020-08-21 08:48:22 lukee lol
2020-08-21 08:48:22 moody is .gmi the common file extension?
2020-08-21 08:48:38 lukee moody: it seems to be the most common one used
2020-08-21 08:48:49 moody good to know, thanks
2020-08-21 08:49:06 moody I have been using .gem
2020-08-21 08:49:52 lukee it doesnt really matter, as long as your server serves the content as text/gemini, all the clients will know
2020-08-21 08:51:31 lukee Personally I think the biggest threat to the diversity of clients everyone seems to be talking about post-mozilla-problems is the increasing reliance on client side scripting
2020-08-21 08:52:04 moody the recent mozilla news is not very comforting
2020-08-21 08:52:06 lukee obviously the big players have an intrinsic incentive to completely control the client experience
2020-08-21 08:52:32 lukee and make the whole UI flashy and attention grabbing
2020-08-21 08:53:08 lukee but if this is what the web ultimately becomes, there is very little room for more than one client runtime
2020-08-21 08:53:55 kevinsan exactly - standards so expansive that no entity can afford to implement them, and without which none of the sites work.
2020-08-21 08:54:12 lukee yes
2020-08-21 08:54:36 moody it feels like things are on the brink of crumbling under their own weight
2020-08-21 08:54:46 kevinsan so it's capture of the Internet, because to the overwhelming majority people, the Internet is 5 or 10 web sites.
2020-08-21 08:55:01 kevinsan moody, it's not crumbling at all, it's capture.
2020-08-21 08:55:41 lukee I'm fine if those 5 to 10 sites require Chrome. But if the rest of the web moves that way inextricably it is a slow but inevitable decline
2020-08-21 08:55:42 kevinsan the web tech is more consistent, more functional, and more stable than it has ever been.
2020-08-21 08:57:19 lukee which is why we need to get User-Agent: MyGeminiClient into webserver logs as the first wave of pushback
2020-08-21 08:57:40 ⚡ lukee punches fist in the air
2020-08-21 08:59:39 lukee I suddenly recall the name of Solderpunk's weblog
2020-08-21 08:59:42 kevinsan ha, i don't see any point pushing back. like the communities who got broken up when a flyover was built on their neighbourhood, we just get on with it and do what we do
2020-08-21 08:59:51 lukee Tilting at windmills
2020-08-21 08:59:59 moody kevinsan: yeah you're right
2020-08-21 09:00:37 moody it'd be hard to crumble with how much money is being poured in
2020-08-21 09:00:43 lukee maybe push back is wrong, we dont have the force for it
2020-08-21 09:01:42 lukee but we dont want an internet where 9.999% of the resources are only accessible through Chrome
2020-08-21 09:01:58 lukee we can't completely opt out
2020-08-21 09:02:38 lukee 9.999 -> 99.999
2020-08-21 09:03:12 moody I think that will happen regardless of anything that could be done
2020-08-21 09:03:44 kevinsan we can create stuff on Gemini that's interesting to people like us. we all have varied interests and opinions, yet clearly share some core values.
2020-08-21 09:04:25 kevinsan that, in turn, will make Gemini interesting to people 'quite like us', particularly those with a bent for writing and expressing themselves
2020-08-21 09:04:36 moody the web underground
2020-08-21 09:05:04 lukee MolesRUs
2020-08-21 09:05:12 kevinsan pretty much what tildeverse, irc resurgence, gopher-stubbornness, etc. is all about
2020-08-21 09:05:45 lukee gopher-stubbornness: that is definitely a thing
2020-08-21 09:06:42 kevinsan it's just the regrouping of above-average intelligence people around tech that's separate from the masses
2020-08-21 09:09:37 moody I will say putting content up in the gemini world has been a really fun time
2020-08-21 09:10:51 kevinsan moody, me too - it's as simple as editing a text file.
2020-08-21 09:11:10 kevinsan even the most basic html is tedious by comparison
2020-08-21 09:11:43 moody it really is a sea of difference, the tedium really adds up
2020-08-21 09:12:32 moody I think there will be a good influx from the plan9 crowd before too long
2020-08-21 09:12:58 lukee plan9 crowd - sounds like an oxymoron!
2020-08-21 09:13:11 moody haha
2020-08-21 09:13:14 lukee but seriously, will be nice to have more people in the tent
2020-08-21 09:13:33 moody there are dozens of us!
2020-08-21 09:13:42 lukee haha
2020-08-21 09:14:37 lukee it seems to be a very specific kind of mindset. I like the idea of plan 9, but I never found a use case for it
2020-08-21 09:15:09 kevinsan lol, though honestly dozens of plan9 users is worth more than a million Trump shills to me
2020-08-21 09:15:11 lukee and my mouse only has two buttons
2020-08-21 09:15:21 moody the best use case of plan9 is writing code for plan9 to be honest
2020-08-21 09:15:31 moody so its a bit of a catch 22
2020-08-21 09:15:35 lukee so, quite like gemini then?
2020-08-21 09:15:55 kevinsan the best use-case for my first computers were writing code for my first computers.
2020-08-21 09:16:51 moody I will say, if plain text is your thing then plan9 has it in spades
2020-08-21 09:17:05 lukee yeah, sometimes you just want to know if something is possible
2020-08-21 09:17:54 moody the mouse part is a bit of a obsticle, I finally caved and bought a proper 3 button mouse
2020-08-21 09:17:55 kevinsan yes, i'm having something of a reawakening to the power of plain text and general tooling.
2020-08-21 09:17:55 lukee plain text is nice, but I never really thought it is the best way to integrate software
2020-08-21 09:18:18 lukee you have to render and parse at each interface
2020-08-21 09:18:42 lukee which is always error prone and esoteric
2020-08-21 09:19:22 moody I would argue you have parsing issues whenever two programs are hooked up over a pipe
2020-08-21 09:19:41 moody but I do agree tha text can be a bit of a special kind of a pain depending on the complexity
2020-08-21 09:20:04 lukee yeah, but at least if you have xml or json, you mainly have to think about semantics not syntax
2020-08-21 09:20:08 kevinsan CSV and JSON are plain text, and still allow grepping and cutting etc. i count them as plain text, anyway, even though they have structure.
2020-08-21 09:20:34 lukee plain text is the implementation, but not the structure
2020-08-21 09:20:52 lukee if all unix utilities had a --json flag, it would be great
2020-08-21 09:23:37 moody I would like an awk that was designed for json
2020-08-21 09:25:41 moody I will say in practice plan9 goes for more end poins then it does for more complex grammer
2020-08-21 09:26:16 dkibi morning
2020-08-21 09:26:37 moody morning
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2020-08-21 11:02:43 @tomasino plain text ftw
2020-08-21 11:24:17 dkibi oui
2020-08-21 11:46:16 alex1138 :sistinechapelemoji:
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2020-08-21 13:33:15 awalvie as I said yesterday, I've been thinking about building a C server for Gemini
2020-08-21 13:33:34 awalvie but have no prior experience when it comes to network programming when it comes to C.
2020-08-21 13:33:49 awalvie can someone suggest resources that I can use to get started?
2020-08-21 13:34:13 companion_cube I have no idea except: "look at redis' code and libraries"
2020-08-21 13:36:44 thunk this might get you started with network APIs and give you enough material for more specific questions: https://beej.us/guide/bgnet/
2020-08-21 13:38:40 companion_cube (my personal approach would be "use anything but C", but your move)
2020-08-21 13:40:29 awalvie oh, is C not a good idea?
2020-08-21 13:41:49 thunk if you already know C or want to learn more about it, it should be fine
2020-08-21 13:43:17 companion_cube well just don't deploy it in production or anything :D
2020-08-21 13:43:31 companion_cube awalvie: it's a potential security issue, is all
2020-08-21 13:43:34 awalvie ahh, sorry guys, too newb to get the joke :(
2020-08-21 13:43:48 awalvie ohh, what kind?
2020-08-21 13:44:19 companion_cube well, look for "buffer overflow"s
2020-08-21 13:44:35 companion_cube https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heartbleed <-- stuff like that
2020-08-21 13:44:59 companion_cube https://www.zdnet.com/article/microsoft-70-percent-of-all-security-bugs-are-memory-safety-issues/
2020-08-21 13:45:19 companion_cube still worth learning C, of course.
2020-08-21 13:45:27 companion_cube but you need to be aware of this kind of things
2020-08-21 13:45:39 awalvie roger that, thanks for the heads up
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2020-08-21 15:13:43 CommunistWolf there is someone on the ML working on a C rust server
2020-08-21 15:13:47 CommunistWolf erm, C gemini server
2020-08-21 15:13:56 CommunistWolf clearly I'd sooner be working on a rust one ;)
2020-08-21 15:14:25 acdw rust://rustup.rs
2020-08-21 15:14:37 dkibi iirc there are more than one gemini rust server
2020-08-21 15:15:15 dkibi there are multiple reasons why one might want to do a C server, but one should be aware that one is in for some ride
2020-08-21 15:15:39 acdw i still want to work on a bash or awk server, only tricky thing is the TLS
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2020-08-21 15:24:33 acdw maybe an awk gopher server first...hm
2020-08-21 15:24:39 jns xq: https://github.com/MasterQ32/kristall/pull/49
2020-08-21 15:31:33 makeworld The ESP32 stuff looks super cool
2020-08-21 15:40:29 kevinsan acdw, i was going to do something in awk - just use s_client or gnutls-cli to fetch the page.
2020-08-21 15:42:56 acdw oh that's great! then it'd be pluggable, use whatever TLS command you like. Would it be as easy for a server you think?
2020-08-21 15:43:11 acdw I figure I'd need to use gawk's pipes and stuff
2020-08-21 15:43:19 acdw or does POSIX awk have pipes?
2020-08-21 15:44:09 dkibi I have one of those esp32 based gameboy-like devices would be fun to browse gemini there (but not very practical)
2020-08-21 15:48:29 epoch acdw: I figured out some of the tricky part with the TLS for a gemini server
2020-08-21 15:49:00 acdw with awk? would love to see it!
2020-08-21 15:49:10 epoch if you want SNI support, you gotta use stunnel to launch the awk script
2020-08-21 15:50:41 epoch https://thebackupbox.net/~epoch/blog/stunnel.html
2020-08-21 15:50:53 acdw ah yes that's perfect
2020-08-21 15:51:36 epoch though some of the metadata you might want to use for CGIs doesn't get put into the environment by stunnel
2020-08-21 15:52:17 acdw dang. well i can cross that bridge later, I honestly don't even know how CGI works lol
2020-08-21 15:53:45 acdw I couldn't do openssl s_server -serverinfo <file> ?
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2020-08-21 15:55:50 epoch you could use a lot of things if you don't care to do SNI
2020-08-21 15:56:05 acdw mmmmm good to know
2020-08-21 15:56:14 acdw SNI is spec tho, so
2020-08-21 15:56:20 epoch I used socat or ncat --ssl for a while
2020-08-21 15:56:20 acdw right? I think it is
2020-08-21 15:56:38 epoch yeah, but does it break stuff if you don't use it? :P
2020-08-21 15:57:40 epoch for the missing env vars that would be handy for CGIs I've been editing stunnel.
2020-08-21 15:58:26 acdw hm true true
2020-08-21 15:59:00 acdw actually epoch: when I was doing bollux some stuff broke b/c I wasn't using SNI -- if a server is serving 2 domains for example
2020-08-21 16:01:54 moody interesting, had no idea that socat had --ssl
2020-08-21 16:02:22 moody I really miss that old inetd UNIX system
2020-08-21 16:05:56 epoch ncat has --ssl, socat uses non-unixy syntax so has tls-server: I think
2020-08-21 16:06:10 moody ah gotcha
2020-08-21 16:06:23 epoch socat openssl-listen:443,pf=ip6,ipv6only=1,certificate=/etc/letsencrypt/https.crt,key=/etc/letsencrypt/keys/https.key.pem,verify=0,fork,reuseaddr exec:/service/https/fixvars_socat.sh
2020-08-21 16:15:16 companion_cube tomasino: interesting Björk video…
2020-08-21 16:21:11 acdw bjork is so great
2020-08-21 16:21:38 acdw tomasino: have you met her? my friend studied in Iceland for a semester and right before she left she found out Bjork lived like, three doors down from where she'd been staying
2020-08-21 16:25:07 companion_cube :o
2020-08-21 16:26:06 acdw never met her tho
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2020-08-21 19:04:44 @tomasino Saw her once downtown. I know where her house is. But famous people here don't really get mobbed, so I left her alone like everyone else
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2020-08-22 00:08:04 wgreenhouse tomasino: it still blows my mind that one Iceland is only 0.5 Vermonts
2020-08-22 00:08:25 wgreenhouse I already live in what I think of as a very sparsely populated rural place
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2020-08-22 01:44:48 easeout it looks bigger on the mercator projection
2020-08-22 01:45:13 login ^is that the projection that preserves area?
2020-08-22 01:46:02 easeout no, mercator preserves local aspect ratio, i want to say
2020-08-22 01:46:29 easeout like at any given spot, one meter north and one meter east will look the same size on the map
2020-08-22 01:47:29 easeout but that means the sizes of landmasses look bigger, horizontally and vertically, as you approach the poles
2020-08-22 01:48:56 easeout vermont is at about N45º and iceland is about N64º… let's see if i can figure this out…
2020-08-22 01:49:21 wgreenhouse easeout: I meant by population :P
2020-08-22 01:49:25 easeout oh oh
2020-08-22 01:49:29 easeout well then
2020-08-22 01:49:31 wgreenhouse Iceland is about 350K souls
2020-08-22 01:49:42 wgreenhouse VT is like 650K
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2020-08-22 01:50:30 wgreenhouse sorry if I left you to meditate on my statement for a long time; I went off and did network-configurating and messed some things up and unmessed them again
2020-08-22 01:50:31 easeout ah ok iceland is 4 vermonts in landmass.
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2020-08-22 01:51:06 easeout so about 1/8 the density
2020-08-22 01:51:36 wgreenhouse amazing. as I said, this feels already not very dense
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2020-08-22 03:24:48 login iceland is great for computer cooling
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2020-08-22 03:36:55 easeout because of the lava, or the elves, or the months of night?
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2020-08-22 04:43:36 wgreenhouse maybe the geothermal?
2020-08-22 04:43:49 wgreenhouse I know there are some geothermally powered (and cooled no doubt) datacenters there
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2020-08-22 05:39:57 moody Has anyone tried hacking gemini in to curl?
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2020-08-22 09:06:08 @tomasino iceland is about the size of virginia
2020-08-22 09:06:12 @tomasino land-mass-wise
2020-08-22 09:11:14 @tomasino moody: someone had talked about it, but i haven't seen any issues or PRs show up on the curl repo
2020-08-22 09:11:31 @tomasino in good news, curl will soon have XDG_CONFIG_HOME support
2020-08-22 09:11:32 @tomasino https://github.com/curl/curl/pull/5837
2020-08-22 09:24:30 login nice
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2020-08-22 11:48:56 Cadey Hi all
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2020-08-22 14:08:55 moody tomasino: I was looking at it a bit, the SSL stuff seems a bit complicated
2020-08-22 14:09:12 moody they have their own abstraction layer around all the different ssl libraries
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2020-08-22 19:10:54 ℹ Mode #gemini [+o julienxx] by hub.tilde.chat
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2020-08-22 19:49:25 ℹ Mode #gemini [+o julienxx] by hub.tilde.chat
2020-08-22 19:50:01 @tomasino and i'm home
2020-08-22 19:50:06 @tomasino did i miss something?
2020-08-22 19:51:32 djph 19
2020-08-22 19:51:47 djph oops
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2020-08-22 19:55:46 @tomasino nice
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2020-08-22 23:09:34 griffin Hey all!
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2020-08-23 04:30:19 Nalaph anyone else have issues with geminaut hanging when trying to access localhost?
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2020-08-23 06:16:33 Nalaph Hmm...turns out it's not just localhost. Something is causing Geminaut to hang when it tries to access anything my test Gemini server tries to host. I guess something must be wrong with how I'm serving it.
2020-08-23 06:20:31 ℹ Nalaph is now known as Nalaph|away
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2020-08-23 08:11:20 login hi felix
2020-08-23 08:11:26 felix Hello!
2020-08-23 08:11:50 felix Just learned about this channel from the Kristall homepage.
2020-08-23 08:12:18 felix I joined Ctrl-C.club earlier this month, and started with Gemini.
2020-08-23 08:12:44 felix Just wanted to say hi. It's all very new to me.
2020-08-23 08:14:48 login I just learned about the Kristall homepage from this channel and you haha
2020-08-23 08:14:52 login Welcome
2020-08-23 08:15:09 login I'm just a lurker, and know only a little bit about gemini and its whole ecosystem
2020-08-23 08:15:51 login btw, felix, does your browser force https or no?
2020-08-23 08:17:21 login when i go to https://ctrl-c.club, it offers a certificate for https://discourse.ctrl-c.club
2020-08-23 08:17:51 login when i go to https://discourse.ctrl-c.club, it offers me a certificate for jenkins.khronos.org
2020-08-23 08:18:06 login when i go to https://jenkins.khronos.org, it offers me the same certificate, but says 404 Not Found
2020-08-23 08:18:21 login perhaps khronos.org and ctrl-c.club are compromised
2020-08-23 08:19:09 felix I just get a 502 error if I tell the browser to accept the cert.
2020-08-23 08:19:33 felix But try gemini.ctrl-c.club, that one has a working cert.
2020-08-23 08:20:12 felix Not so much content. :P
2020-08-23 08:26:36 felix Anyway, got to go! Thanks for the welcome! And nice homepage.
2020-08-23 08:26:47 login which home page?
2020-08-23 08:28:21 felix Yours. If tilde.town/~login/ is the right one.
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2020-08-23 08:32:52 login yes, that is the right one felix
2020-08-23 08:32:54 login cheers
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2020-08-23 12:49:11 ⚡ felix waves!
2020-08-23 13:55:25 djph o/
2020-08-23 13:56:05 wgreenhouse o\
2020-08-23 13:56:09 wgreenhouse \o even
2020-08-23 14:06:46 felix Hello!
2020-08-23 14:09:03 djph how's it going, geminauts?
2020-08-23 14:09:23 kline i should submit my atom for capcom
2020-08-23 14:09:58 felix It's going! Been finding cool new corners of gemspace since morning.
2020-08-23 14:10:06 felix And gopherholes while I was at it.
2020-08-23 14:11:34 felix Lots of folks seem to come from Gopher, and have more stuff on that side.
2020-08-23 17:07:23 easeout i like how gemini has expanded the audience for the text internet. personally i would have found the UX downsides of gopher too heavy to bother participating, but with links mixed into gemtext content, that wasn't a problem
2020-08-23 17:08:11 easeout now that i've been here awhile, i still gopher sites feel clunky by comparison.
2020-08-23 17:08:19 easeout ^still think
2020-08-23 17:08:46 felix To me it's more about the ease of authoring.
2020-08-23 17:09:11 felix Gemini makes it amazingly easy. It's Markdown lite in essence.
2020-08-23 17:09:55 easeout yeah. as hypertext systems go it's the easiest for everyone involved
2020-08-23 17:11:05 easeout that is an interesting point though, the effect of publication is super low, almost comparable to the effort of getting set up to read content
2020-08-23 17:12:09 easeout on the web, the difference in effort between publishing vs. reading is way out of scale
2020-08-23 17:12:46 felix Eh, HTML too can be taught easily enough with the right approach.
2020-08-23 17:13:03 felix Speaking from experience here. Sadly less than I'd like.
2020-08-23 17:13:50 felix But gemtext is... whoa. You almost have nothing *to* teach.
2020-08-23 17:13:58 easeout that
2020-08-23 17:14:12 easeout you're not expected to do styling, SEO, etc
2020-08-23 17:14:16 easeout just the content please
2020-08-23 17:14:30 felix Exactly! People can just sit down and write. And that changes everything.
2020-08-23 17:15:01 felix Wish there were provisions for horizontal rules though. >.>
2020-08-23 17:15:10 easeout like, ideally the effort of writing a blog post on wordpress is about the same as publishing a gemtext post, but when it's baked into the medium, you don't need a man in the middle like wordpress to make it accessible
2020-08-23 17:15:30 felix Yes! That's the big win here!
2020-08-23 17:16:30 easeout re: horizontal rules, in markdown that's "---", and markdown's whole thing is that the unstyled source code should be reasonable to just read in plain text anyway, so i suggest you just put "---" in your pages
2020-08-23 17:17:44 easeout i imagine there is a reason a lot of things like that were left out of gemtext. my guess is they wanted to see what we could do without.
2020-08-23 17:19:26 felix Good point.
2020-08-23 17:22:03 felix Either way I can get started just fine.
2020-08-23 17:22:06 easeout yeah
2020-08-23 17:31:31 felix Nice gemlog, by the way. I only have a couple of pages so far.
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2020-08-23 17:36:57 lukee hello fellow travellers and co-refusniks of modernity
2020-08-23 17:38:31 lukee felix: yes you can use --- but personally I think the gap between the hyphens is a bit ugly
2020-08-23 17:38:46 lukee why not just use underscores, they join up smoothly
2020-08-23 17:38:51 lukee ___________________________________
2020-08-23 17:39:39 felix I'm thinking of screenreaders. "Dash dash dash" versus "underscore..."
2020-08-23 17:40:11 lukee well, both are typographical approximations to a visual flourish
2020-08-23 17:40:43 felix Yeah. But one of them is accessible.
2020-08-23 17:41:11 lukee I think both would be equally well understood
2020-08-23 17:41:49 m68k is there a mature client that parses markdown well?
2020-08-23 17:42:07 lukee I think most clients dont bother
2020-08-23 17:42:14 m68k yeah
2020-08-23 17:42:27 lukee there's not much *.md in geminispace
2020-08-23 17:42:29 felix Dunno. Kristall just renders markdown as very nice plain text.
2020-08-23 17:42:44 felix But still plain text. Doesn't try to render it.
2020-08-23 17:42:58 felix Err.... as HTML I mean.
2020-08-23 17:43:06 lukee just wear your hair shirt and stick with text/gemini
2020-08-23 17:43:11 m68k i do feel like there are a number of things I'd like that push the spec into "WWW-creep" and since there's been plenty of folks using .md anyway, at least on gopher and gemini in the early days, *shrug*
2020-08-23 17:43:52 m68k yeah I haven't done much exploring since gemini blew up, i didn't know how many folks were doing .md
2020-08-23 17:44:19 felix I found someone just this morning.
2020-08-23 17:44:57 m68k I have one markdown on my server
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2020-08-23 17:45:07 lukee according to GUS there are 29 markdown pages vs 20,000 text/gemini
2020-08-23 17:45:08 lukee gemini://gus.guru/statistics
2020-08-23 17:46:13 djph I really hope my pages are proper text/gemini ... laalalalalalala
2020-08-23 17:46:26 felix Wait, I was wrong! Kristall does render Markdown. How did I miss that?
2020-08-23 17:47:10 felix Must have been looking at files served with the wrong content type.
2020-08-23 17:47:18 lukee djph - its hard to be wrong. The worst that can happen is to get the link syntax wrong in which case the links wont work
2020-08-23 17:47:54 m68k my biggest want is to have images rendered in document, it can be done by a client if it wants but also I like being able to fall back on markdown for that kind of stuff
2020-08-23 17:48:07 djph lukee: I write them as plaintext, then run them through a gemini-format thingy I wrote (because like hell am I gonna write infinitely long lines in an editor)
2020-08-23 17:48:27 lukee djph: you just need a better editor :)
2020-08-23 17:48:29 djph images, in a text-format?
2020-08-23 17:48:36 djph lukee: I already use vim :P
2020-08-23 17:48:38 felix That's where word wrap comes in. ;)
2020-08-23 17:48:57 lukee djph: exactly :)
2020-08-23 17:48:58 m68k *rolls eyes* it's a document, i'm not gonna argue about that
2020-08-23 17:49:19 felix And well, that's controversial I guess. Maybe clients could have an option to inline images.
2020-08-23 17:49:23 djph lukee: I'm not learning emacs :P
2020-08-23 17:49:31 lukee I was thinking MS Word?
2020-08-23 17:49:46 djph ...
2020-08-23 17:49:54 djph ouch. that hurts.
2020-08-23 17:49:57 lukee (a joke!)
2020-08-23 17:50:00 m68k some gopher client will render a link to an image as a thumbnail. Feels very early-Web to me
2020-08-23 17:50:06 felix But really, if you need a little more, you can always use HTML.
2020-08-23 17:50:48 lukee m68k: I think there is scope to have this as a client/userpreference option
2020-08-23 17:51:21 lukee The basic design though is that authors cannot *expect* them to be loaded. One request per page
2020-08-23 17:51:32 m68k yeah that's what I way saying. Obviously plenty of folks using gemini in a text terminal, and graceful degradation is the whole point
2020-08-23 17:52:08 lukee yes, why not. Diversity of clients is welcome
2020-08-23 17:52:28 felix Right! In HTML you have the problem that an image with no alt text can't even be downloaded with Lynx.
2020-08-23 17:52:32 djph m68k: I'm not looking to argue about it; I'm still on the "learning" side in terms of what gemini is(tm)
2020-08-23 17:52:40 companion_cube maybe it's more of an "inline link" notion?
2020-08-23 17:52:46 companion_cube a link that you'd expect to expand inline if you click it
2020-08-23 17:52:53 m68k ah I'm not arguing either :) sorry if I was rude djph
2020-08-23 17:52:55 companion_cube whether it's an image or another document
2020-08-23 17:53:15 djph m68k: not at all, read it as you thought I was telling you off
2020-08-23 17:53:23 lukee companion_cube: yes that is another thing clients could do for you if
2020-08-23 17:53:28 lukee you wanted to let them
2020-08-23 17:53:59 companion_cube I mean maybe it's an interesting concept in itself, and images are just the most obvious use case
2020-08-23 17:54:05 companion_cube (iframes show it's useful in the web too)
2020-08-23 17:54:48 m68k I think that there's a difference between saying gemini's a "text format" and saying .gmi files are "plaintext". They're intelligible as plaintext, but they're certainly more than that
2020-08-23 17:55:01 lukee As long as it is a per-client behaviour and not burned into the spec, I think there wouldnt be much objection
2020-08-23 17:55:26 lukee m68k: they are both: text and text/gemini
2020-08-23 17:55:27 felix This!
2020-08-23 17:56:58 felix Ironically, I once thought of a potential wiki markup format that was in essence gemtext.
2020-08-23 17:57:19 felix And dismissed the idea. Imagine that.
2020-08-23 17:57:23 m68k heh
2020-08-23 17:58:19 lukee a while back I wrote down some ideas about possible options for client hinting for inline inclusion
2020-08-23 17:58:22 lukee https://github.com/LukeEmmet/GeminiLUACH
2020-08-23 17:58:54 lukee it is probably a bit heavyweight, but there may be some mileage in it still
2020-08-23 17:59:54 lukee probably a bit much to expect authors to keep looking up which magic emojii to include
2020-08-23 18:00:24 djph I think the biggest challenge with images is the whole "gemini doesn't deal with 'large(tm)' filesizes gracefully"
2020-08-23 18:00:39 lukee my thoughts now are that a simple text hint on the link should be adequate to hint the content *may* be included
2020-08-23 18:00:42 lukee like this
2020-08-23 18:01:02 lukee => gemini://domain/path/to/image.png [+] my image
2020-08-23 18:01:39 m68k so I don't fully understand, the stuff in the brackets would be rendered as an emoji?
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2020-08-23 18:01:50 lukee djph: yes that is the world of gemini ought to stick to small images
2020-08-23 18:02:27 kensanata Oh, I am on IRC again!
2020-08-23 18:02:35 m68k lukee: like "Here is my [home] page" the word home would be removed and replaced with the house emoji?
2020-08-23 18:02:37 kensanata Some days ago I was no longer being admitted.
2020-08-23 18:02:48 lukee mk68: no the emojii (code points given for reference) label the link as a possible include
2020-08-23 18:02:50 ⚡ felix waves!
2020-08-23 18:03:00 lukee no, only on link lines
2020-08-23 18:03:27 lukee so this would be an *optional* transclusion
2020-08-23 18:03:37 m68k ok, I see
2020-08-23 18:03:53 felix So basically you're suggesting extra annotations that a strict implementation can simply ignore.
2020-08-23 18:03:55 lukee => gemini://example.com/path/to/png.png 🌄 my image
2020-08-23 18:04:16 lukee there is one for text/gemini too as an optional client side include
2020-08-23 18:04:20 lukee felix: exactly
2020-08-23 18:04:36 lukee it degrades completely
2020-08-23 18:04:49 lukee hi kensanata
2020-08-23 18:05:56 kensanata yo
2020-08-23 18:06:50 felix How's it going?
2020-08-23 18:07:21 lukee Dealing with images being too big in gemini is easy, just have your client abandon the download after some specified limit of your choosing
2020-08-23 18:09:14 felix Wait... doesn't the spec say that preformatted text blocks can be handled specially?
2020-08-23 18:09:39 felix Like allowing clients to fold or skip one marked as ASCII art?
2020-08-23 18:10:10 lukee yes, clients could do that. They could collapse or fold on headings too if they wanted
2020-08-23 18:10:38 felix Then they could just as easily render inline SVG. Or PPM.
2020-08-23 18:11:02 lukee yes, but SVG is sadly quite verbose
2020-08-23 18:11:23 felix For any serious use, yeah. Though I wrote some by hand.
2020-08-23 18:12:08 felix Made the artwork for a whole Twine game like that.
2020-08-23 18:12:13 kensanata Wow, cool!
2020-08-23 18:12:32 felix Thanks!
2020-08-23 18:12:42 kensanata I love the principle of SVG, the XML basics not so much; and I generate all my map stuff as SVG on the web.
2020-08-23 18:13:01 felix That's another thing I like about it, it's easily generated.
2020-08-23 18:13:18 m68k yeah you could put PPM in a preformatted text block as ASCII block characters. idk about SVG
2020-08-23 18:13:23 lukee there is this ambiguous part of the spec for preformatted blocks
2020-08-23 18:13:23 kensanata Some days I wonder whether PS would be just as good... :D
2020-08-23 18:13:32 lukee the bit after the first ```
2020-08-23 18:13:36 login if adobe would let it shine, kensanata
2020-08-23 18:13:43 felix Did that for some illustrations and articles.
2020-08-23 18:13:54 lukee you could use it as a label, or for other purposes
2020-08-23 18:14:11 login svg for sharing documents as an open-source pdf alternative seems to have more chance of success
2020-08-23 18:14:59 lukee login: sadly I think that ship has sailed for print-specific docs.
2020-08-23 18:15:16 login lukee: true
2020-08-23 18:15:24 login PDF is the monopoly winner
2020-08-23 18:15:33 login but nitropdf is what everybody likes
2020-08-23 18:16:35 kensanata I think the main issue is that the SVG spec is good and I wouldn't even know where to start about learning PS or PDF.
2020-08-23 18:16:49 lukee login: but then again Markdown seems to be beating HTML for manual authoring, so who knows
2020-08-23 18:17:17 felix Yeah, but just try suggesting it should be adopted as such by browsers.
2020-08-23 18:17:42 felix People yell that it's not a real standard, that it's poorly specified and there are big rendering differences...
2020-08-23 18:18:09 felix And I'm sitting there like, y'all got a look at web browsers lately?
2020-08-23 18:18:54 lukee anyway we have text/gemini and most straightforward html can be rendered to it
2020-08-23 18:19:11 felix Or better yet the other way around.
2020-08-23 18:19:34 felix No, wait, you're right, it can work either way.
2020-08-23 18:19:53 lukee yes it is lossless gemtext->html, but for articles and simple text it can go the other way
2020-08-23 18:20:15 felix Now I really need to write a converter.
2020-08-23 18:20:28 lukee gemtext->html is easy
2020-08-23 18:20:44 lukee going the other way, you could try this https://github.com/LukeEmmet/html2gmi
2020-08-23 18:22:35 felix Nice!
2020-08-23 18:23:14 felix kensanata here wrestled with the same problem just recently.
2020-08-23 18:23:48 kensanata felix: And what did you end up doing?
2020-08-23 18:24:08 lukee thanks - its WIP but good enough in many situations
2020-08-23 18:24:14 felix Nothing yet. I'm only now dipping a toe in Geminispace.
2020-08-23 18:26:20 felix Sorry, I should go to bed. See you all some other time!
2020-08-23 18:26:57 lukee o/
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2020-08-23 18:43:48 kline the 60s were too polite
2020-08-23 18:44:54 kline I'm trying to find the name(s) of the manager(s) who pushed back on Gemini 3's nickname/ended the practice, but I don't know if it was ever disclosed
2020-08-23 18:58:28 easeout felix, thank you :)
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2020-08-23 20:08:11 Cadey h
2020-08-23 20:16:14 djph 20
2020-08-23 20:16:17 djph ..
2020-08-23 20:19:30 kensanata Would you be interested in a wiki where we collectively collect information about clients and servers? Something like this: https://transjovian.org:1965/gemini/ I told Solderpunk I'd ask people what they thought about it and whether they'd contribute; he felt that he was happy maintaining the lists on Circumlunar Space.
2020-08-23 20:20:41 kensanata And obviously gemini://transjovian.org/gemini should also work...
2020-08-23 20:22:19 lukee I see no harm in it. I think the list on circumlunar space is not entirely up to date anyway with the various systems that are out there
2020-08-23 20:22:55 lukee but the list on circumlunar space will probably be the first port of call for most newbies
2020-08-23 20:23:35 Nalaph|away Circumlunar is a nice landing point, but it's pretty incomplete. Having a wiki with more fleshed-out information would be nice.
2020-08-23 20:23:44 ℹ Nalaph|away is now known as Nalaph
2020-08-23 20:25:44 kensanata lukee: Totally
2020-08-23 20:26:17 kensanata Happy to hear that others also see the need, Nalaph. :)
2020-08-23 20:26:59 lukee would there be an edit mode to contribute from http? Wiki editing from gemini is still somewhat... rustic
2020-08-23 20:28:07 lukee sorry I just checked and yes there is!
2020-08-23 20:29:25 kensanata Yeah, I enabled it. :D
2020-08-23 20:29:32 kensanata The token is "hello".
2020-08-23 20:29:37 kensanata Feel free to share.
2020-08-23 20:30:34 lukee on the top level you have clients/servers/sites - there are more categories needed perhaps?
2020-08-23 20:31:09 lukee for example server frameworks, conversion utilities, libraries, CGI, server apps ?
2020-08-23 20:31:19 kensanata Maybe? Feel free to add them. The top page transcludes the "Welcome" page, so look for it in the index of all pages.
2020-08-23 20:31:38 lukee ok
2020-08-23 20:31:40 Nalaph A few simple tutorials for tasks like creating self-signed certs and such would also be a welcome addition
2020-08-23 20:32:18 Nalaph Took me ages to properly make a .pfx file for my gemini server library
2020-08-23 20:35:42 kensanata For my wiki server, I included instructions on how to do it using openssl, and the Makefile also includes a target to create them, because I kept forgetting myself. So, I agree totally!
2020-08-23 20:52:43 kevinsan hi kensanata, nice to see you back! wiki is a good idea - things change quickly.
2020-08-23 20:54:28 kensanata Yeah, I had a nice trip last week. :)
2020-08-23 20:54:32 kevinsan for the benefit of less technical people, i suggest the page is split so that the top is for non-tech people, and "Everything else" for when you need to dig deeper.
2020-08-23 20:54:50 kensanata Sounds good to me!
2020-08-23 20:55:05 kevinsan i didn't know you had a trip, was this geographical displacement or hallucenogenics?
2020-08-23 20:55:14 kevinsan i was just aware of your absence on irc
2020-08-23 20:55:43 kensanata Haha
2020-08-23 20:55:48 kensanata Some pictures here: https://octodon.social/web/statuses/104705185309891664
2020-08-23 20:56:46 @ben fribourg++
2020-08-23 20:56:56 kensanata Anyway, it's nearly 23:00 over here and I have to go to bed...
2020-08-23 20:57:24 kensanata ben: Yeah, totally! I had never been to Fribourg and I was totally surprised at how nice it was.
2020-08-23 20:57:29 @ben it's very cute
2020-08-23 20:57:36 @ben i visited once or twice
2020-08-23 20:57:39 kensanata Cute is the right word. :)
2020-08-23 20:57:43 @ben https://gallery.bhh.sh/picture.php?/296/category/13
2020-08-23 20:57:53 @ben i liked the funicular powered by grey water
2020-08-23 20:58:23 @ben i miss .ch
2020-08-23 20:58:52 kensanata Heh.
2020-08-23 20:59:11 kensanata Those are nice pictures. Very typical. :)
2020-08-23 20:59:58 kensanata Rhine fall, Bundesplatz, you have everything in this album!
2020-08-23 21:00:05 @ben haha yep :)
2020-08-23 21:00:13 @ben i did a semester of my studies at zhaw in winti
2020-08-23 21:00:36 kensanata Nice!
2020-08-23 21:00:52 @ben i really need to get back some day
2020-08-23 21:00:54 kensanata Argh, church bell is ringing, I gotta go...
2020-08-23 21:01:09 kensanata Do let me know if you're near Zurich if you do.
2020-08-23 21:01:13 @ben will do!
2020-08-23 21:01:23 @ben would love to grab a beer :)
2020-08-23 21:01:31 @ben visit uetliberg or something
2020-08-23 21:01:54 kensanata Exactly. I don't like beer, but will find an adequate substitute, haha.
2020-08-23 21:02:00 @ben it might be a while until anyone lets the US visit :<
2020-08-23 21:02:07 @ben lol fair enough!
2020-08-23 21:02:19 kensanata Yeah, it'll have to wait until post-corona, whenever that will be.
2020-08-23 21:02:37 kensanata Anyway, talk to you all soon.
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2020-08-23 21:02:46 kevinsan nightie
2020-08-23 21:03:08 @ben güeti nacht
2020-08-23 21:03:13 @ben ah he already disconnected
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2020-08-24 13:19:06 idf hello
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2020-08-24 13:38:43 lrb hey idf :) how are you?
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2020-08-24 13:39:30 idf hello, i'm fine, just got my gemini server running :D
2020-08-24 13:41:30 Nalaph idf: what are you using?
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2020-08-24 13:42:56 idf i'm using my own server, geminim, on my raspberry pi
2020-08-24 13:43:26 Nalaph nice
2020-08-24 13:43:53 Nalaph I just got a rough test version of my own server working as well
2020-08-24 13:44:02 idf nice!
2020-08-24 13:44:34 Nalaph Wrote the core server loop as a C# library so people can plug it into whatever sort of application they want
2020-08-24 13:45:24 idf interesting, i thought of something similar around the middle of the development, when it was already too late to convert all of that into a lib
2020-08-24 13:45:46 idf it is doable now tho, so i might try
2020-08-24 13:46:43 Nalaph Yeah, my OG idea was that I wanted to create some sort of simple, asynchronous text-based MMO in Gemini, just for the lolz, but then I decided to also make a gemlog so I went the modular route.
2020-08-24 13:47:05 kensanata Don't be like me and wait for weeks before giving your program a proper name. I spent the morning renaming all my stuff.
2020-08-24 13:47:22 Nalaph oof
2020-08-24 13:47:26 idf i just came up with the idea naturally, gemini, programming language is Nim, GemiNim :D
2020-08-24 13:47:57 kensanata idf: me too. It's a wiki… for gemini… so, uh, like, Gemini Wiki?
2020-08-24 13:48:23 idf Gemiki
2020-08-24 13:48:59 Nalaph yeah mine's just gonna be GemSharpLib for the dll and probably GemSharp for the actual server. Dunno abt the game, but if i get that far I'll figure it out :P
2020-08-24 13:49:12 kensanata Heh.
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2020-08-24 13:53:40 idf thinking of it, making a gemini lib server would go in theme with the stdlib asynchttpserver
2020-08-24 13:53:50 idf *server lib
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2020-08-24 14:24:49 ⚡ felix waves!
2020-08-24 14:34:15 ⚡ kensanata o/
2020-08-24 14:36:21 felix Terribly hot today. How about where you are?
2020-08-24 14:37:30 idf yeah here's hot aswell
2020-08-24 14:38:29 idf 34 degrees celsius
2020-08-24 14:40:05 kensanata 23.3°C
2020-08-24 14:40:13 felix I don't even know how hot it's here. Weather app is lying through its virtual teeth.
2020-08-24 14:40:23 kensanata Hah.
2020-08-24 14:41:08 felix You don't get that "getting hit over the head" sensation at 31 degrees.
2020-08-24 14:41:17 felix Especially through a hat.
2020-08-24 14:41:35 felix 38 is more likely.
2020-08-24 14:43:58 moody heya
2020-08-24 14:45:30 felix Hello!
2020-08-24 14:50:33 kevinsan idf, well done getting your site up. your certificate should be created with a CN of your host - some clients reject if the name does not check out.
2020-08-24 14:51:13 kevinsan also, if you would like a subdomain on the main DNS, let me know (you can have idf.looting.uk)
2020-08-24 14:51:45 idf thank you, yeah I will try making a certificate with CN.
2020-08-24 14:51:55 idf that would be great!
2020-08-24 14:54:57 kevinsan ok idf.looting.uk now resolves to 31.5.228.44
2020-08-24 14:55:09 idf thanks, i appreciate it
2020-08-24 14:56:19 idf i'll close the server a bit to reconfigure it
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2020-08-24 15:01:33 idf alright cool the server is back up and it works on idf.looting.uk now
2020-08-24 15:02:04 idf also works on the OpenNIC domain
2020-08-24 15:03:29 moody working on some sort of geminifs for plan9 currently
2020-08-24 15:04:54 felix Hardcore!
2020-08-24 15:06:43 idf sounds really interesting!
2020-08-24 15:08:45 kensanata moody: I was wondering about that!
2020-08-24 15:09:20 kensanata moody: Somebody recently announced something based on rc, which didn't seem like a geminifs to me.
2020-08-24 15:09:34 moody yeah that was me
2020-08-24 15:09:38 kensanata Ah!
2020-08-24 15:09:50 moody I've got a little rc gemini server running my site
2020-08-24 15:10:18 kensanata Very cool.
2020-08-24 15:10:51 ⚡ tomasino has a little gemini server running too... ;)
2020-08-24 15:11:14 kensanata I must confess that my enthusiasm for Plan 9 comes in little bursts. It basically ends whenever I want to use Emacs. :D
2020-08-24 15:11:34 @tomasino haha
2020-08-24 15:11:47 @tomasino kensanata, you're like 82% emacs, aren't you?
2020-08-24 15:12:25 @julienxx hello geminauts
2020-08-24 15:12:34 ⚡ felix waves!
2020-08-24 15:13:17 @julienxx moody: a geminifs would be very cool, I'm making a lobste.rs fs as an exercise
2020-08-24 15:13:18 felix tomasino: that's a cool hack all right.
2020-08-24 15:13:23 kensanata Well... How are you going to measure, exactly? Of the time I'm at the laptop, there's almost always an Emacs running. I do use Firefox for some stuff, though. Or a PDF reader. And I read a lot of stuff on a phone and a table without Emacs. So... Tricky question!
2020-08-24 15:13:42 companion_cube if we prick your finger, do you bleed elisp?
2020-08-24 15:13:45 felix Only because it doesn't run on them?
2020-08-24 15:14:09 @tomasino hehe
2020-08-24 15:14:20 @tomasino i'm a vimmer, through and through
2020-08-24 15:14:29 kevinsan idf, certificate looks good - all working so far as I can see. cool you have your own site on your own server!
2020-08-24 15:14:37 kensanata felix: I think using a text interface on a phone screen is also a miserable experience, so… I don't know whether I need an editor for mobile devices with a touch screen.
2020-08-24 15:14:51 moody kensanata: which plan9 do you use normally?
2020-08-24 15:15:12 kensanata moody: I installed 9front with Qemu on my Debian-derived laptop...
2020-08-24 15:15:21 moody 9front :)
2020-08-24 15:15:37 moody The 9front dudes do a lot of great work
2020-08-24 15:15:38 felix I wrote some of my best stories on a tablet. But fair enough.
2020-08-24 15:16:27 moody which way you get 9front working doesn't matter too much, not many of us use physical hardware anyway
2020-08-24 15:16:43 moody we just dont like the fragmentation that happens with 9legacy
2020-08-24 15:16:59 kensanata felix: Yeah, I mean I can see how people can write a lot of text on a phone… all those chat clients with their endless messages, sure. But I'm not a writer and so I don't use Emacs all that much for writing long stretches of text.
2020-08-24 15:17:54 kensanata moody: I did think for a moment that I'd install 9front on a USB stick and boot from the stick, running it directly. But then I got confused and so now it's inside Qemu.
2020-08-24 15:19:09 kensanata moody: I mostly got confused because once I had the 9front installation medium on a stick, I thought that was it. But all I had was a USB stick from which to boot and run the installer... I guess I should have tried installing it on a second USB stick or something. Anyway. I confused the installer with the thing itself, haha.
2020-08-24 15:22:03 idf kevinsan: thanks for checking! Yup, its quite cool i got my own server running. I guess I accomplished what I wanted to do :D
2020-08-24 15:23:19 moody kensanata: funny that you mention that, there was some disucssion recently on clearing up that part of the install docs
2020-08-24 15:23:30 kensanata idf: Like all of the programmers in Geminispace, there comes a point when all the programs have been programmed and the progs have rocked and it's time to write some text! Hard lessons I learned from tomasino.
2020-08-24 15:24:19 moody kensanata: the hardware support is pretty limited at the moment, mostly to older thinkpads
2020-08-24 15:24:34 moody the kernel is multiboot compliant so you can just have grub start it
2020-08-24 15:24:56 kensanata moody: if you have connections to 9front people and y'all need a laugh, you can show them my whine-post at gemini://alexschroeder.ch/page/2020-08-07_Plan_9
2020-08-24 15:25:30 kensanata Or https://alexschroeder.ch/wiki/2020-08-07_Plan_9 I guess.
2020-08-24 15:26:01 @tomasino :D!
2020-08-24 15:26:01 kensanata Funny how using my site with Elpher is quicker than using it from a browser, even if that browser is also running within Emacs.
2020-08-24 15:26:37 moody ahhh I see the issue you ran in to
2020-08-24 15:27:17 moody when you escaped to the shell during the boot process you were in the paqfs
2020-08-24 15:27:25 moody its like the linux initrd
2020-08-24 15:27:25 idf kensanata: hah, I'll keep that in mind. Luckly, I got quite a lot of stuff to write about
2020-08-24 15:27:40 idf also i really like elpher
2020-08-24 15:27:55 moody kensanata: my guess is that your usb controller isn't supported
2020-08-24 15:28:44 moody I am happy you got it working with qemu :), if you have any questions about the OS feel free to ask or PM me
2020-08-24 15:30:13 kensanata moody: Thanks!
2020-08-24 15:31:07 kensanata For now, I'm just enjoying the occasional screenshots of Plan 9 on Mastodon and I think to myself: I could do this! If I wanted to, I could just run Plan 9 right now and do it! Cool! I like. Scroll…
2020-08-24 15:32:27 moody Yeah there has been a lot of attention about plan9 on it seems
2020-08-24 15:33:47 moody we've been trying to build some more docs that are less like a full book over at docs.a-b.xyz
2020-08-24 15:35:54 felix We need all the alternatives we can get nowadays.
2020-08-24 15:36:14 felix Just to raise awareness that alternatives *exist*.
2020-08-24 15:37:03 felix But yeah. Time and energy are always in short supply.
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2020-08-24 15:41:48 felix Hello!
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2020-08-24 15:55:34 ⚡ felix waves!
2020-08-24 15:56:28 ⚡ acdw waves back
2020-08-24 15:56:31 acdw how's it going eeryone?
2020-08-24 15:58:40 felix Not bad! Did some blogging today. Ran an errand.
2020-08-24 15:58:55 felix Converted a Markdown file to gemtext. Well, "converted".
2020-08-24 16:01:05 acdw noice
2020-08-24 16:01:23 acdw did you do the footnote-style linking, or "inline" ? I can't decide b/w the two
2020-08-24 16:02:56 kensanata acdw: By inline you mean "at the end of the paragraph"?
2020-08-24 16:02:58 felix I don't have footnotes in that document.
2020-08-24 16:04:26 acdw kensanata: I mean like:
2020-08-24 16:04:34 acdw If you want to follow this link,
2020-08-24 16:04:46 acdw => gemini://exampl.com click here.
2020-08-24 16:04:50 acdw if not, don't. whatever
2020-08-24 16:04:53 acdw ^^ like that
2020-08-24 16:05:22 acdw basically just converting <a href="...">link text</a> to '\n=>... link text\n'
2020-08-24 16:07:59 felix Ah. Luckily for me this particular text had no links either.
2020-08-24 16:09:19 acdw oh nice felix
2020-08-24 16:10:15 felix I have some write-ups where that could get tricky.
2020-08-24 16:13:12 moody I have chosen just a footer with all the links
2020-08-24 16:13:22 moody I've been fairly happy with how it reeds
2020-08-24 16:13:33 felix That's a way to do it!
2020-08-24 16:14:06 acdw moody: yeah I think i'm gravitating toward that. it'd be nice to have ... not a *spec*, but a *convention* for how to format them and display them
2020-08-24 16:15:02 felix That's where your creativity comes in. ;)
2020-08-24 16:15:15 acdw haha i guess so
2020-08-24 16:17:00 felix If I may plug my work here?
2020-08-24 16:18:52 felix Contrast http://ctrl-c.club/~nttp/ to gemini://gemini.ctrl-c.club/~nttp/
2020-08-24 16:19:45 felix You'll notice My Games translates a lot more readily.
2020-08-24 16:22:23 idf nice job!
2020-08-24 16:22:32 acdw goh yes it looks good!
2020-08-24 16:22:36 idf ^
2020-08-24 16:22:58 felix Thank you!
2020-08-24 16:25:06 idf cool writing too
2020-08-24 16:25:29 felix You're very kind.
2020-08-24 16:25:58 acdw hey kensanata : where can I get gemini-write for emacs? I don't see it on your wiki page here: https://alexschroeder.ch/cgit/gemini-write/about/
2020-08-24 16:26:08 acdw OMG that 's a git page. I am dumb
2020-08-24 16:26:12 acdw wow
2020-08-24 16:28:42 idf felix mind if i add your capsule to my list of favourite capsules :D
2020-08-24 16:30:07 ⚡ felix blushes.
2020-08-24 16:30:56 felix I'll try to add more soon then.
2020-08-24 16:31:13 felix Got another thing to bring over, but after that I'm not sure.
2020-08-24 16:38:35 kensanata acdw: Yeah, sadly I haven't applied for MELPA, yet.
2020-08-24 16:39:52 idf nice too see this number of Church of Emacs fellows
2020-08-24 16:40:03 felix :D
2020-08-24 16:40:16 kensanata acdw: Also, the simple inline linking you demonstrated looks terrible to me... I thought a lot about how to link dense hypertexts (such as the Project Gemini Wikipedia page) and ended up deciding that in most case, dropping almost all of the links was best.
2020-08-24 16:41:27 acdw no worries! I'm gitting everything now
2020-08-24 16:41:57 acdw and yes, I've used that inline style a bit but it honestly don't look good at all. i don't think i'll use it any more either lol
2020-08-24 16:43:22 felix I was confronted with this issue while writing my latest book.
2020-08-24 16:43:46 felix Learned to mention things in such a way that readers can easily look them up.
2020-08-24 16:44:05 felix If the links don't work or aren't there at all for some reason.
2020-08-24 16:44:26 acdw ^ yeah this is the way
2020-08-24 16:44:34 acdw or have a list at the end, like a works cited page
2020-08-24 16:44:48 felix For the most important ones, sure.
2020-08-24 16:45:06 felix Or at key points throughout the text, to break it up nicely.
2020-08-24 16:45:33 felix It's a new medium, it will take a while to figure things out.
2020-08-24 16:46:22 kensanata acdw: When I had a separate list of links for gemini://vault.transjovian.org/full/en/Project%20Gemini the list was over 260 items long. That goes to show that HTML lets people sprinkle an insane amount of links into hypertext that cannot be handled by footnotes. Footnotes are "weightier" (?) than hyperlinks.
2020-08-24 16:47:02 kensanata Yeah, figuring it out as we go, seeing how the limitations of the medium afford a new style of writing, I love that
2020-08-24 16:47:16 felix Interesting way to put it! And yes, that's part of the fun.
2020-08-24 16:47:31 felix Recently wrote a thing that can only meaningfully exist as a web page.
2020-08-24 16:47:41 felix And had to remind myself that it's fine.
2020-08-24 16:48:26 felix Friend of mine once lamented the deprecation of tags like center, or color.
2020-08-24 16:48:28 idf I consider that unexaggerated limitations actually result into smarter solutions
2020-08-24 16:48:51 moody I was for a while thinking of cool cgi things I could do but then had to stop myself
2020-08-24 16:49:14 moody its nice to have that bit of resistance
2020-08-24 16:49:20 felix "But what does it mean?" whined the semantic crowd. It means the text is red. Diegetically.
2020-08-24 16:49:52 felix That forever changed my understanding of media.
2020-08-24 16:50:18 idf i guess its too late for me, my server already has cgi support
2020-08-24 16:50:35 moody cgi itself is fine, but I was trying to wire it up to a bunch of multimedia stuff
2020-08-24 16:50:44 idf oooh i see
2020-08-24 16:51:03 moody I am slowly shaking the 'webapp' way of thinking
2020-08-24 16:51:50 idf yea
2020-08-24 16:53:14 felix It's such a trap.
2020-08-24 16:53:37 idf I want to make some simple proxies and gemtext "generators" for different services in CGI
2020-08-24 16:53:52 kensanata I like webapps. I've written a handful. But I hate it when I get a webapp when I should have been getting a document instead.
2020-08-24 16:53:55 kensanata Gaaaaaah
2020-08-24 16:54:22 felix Hey, I still use OddMuse. Not going to knock it. ;)
2020-08-24 16:54:33 kensanata Hahaha! Oh wow.
2020-08-24 16:54:42 idf what's oddmuse
2020-08-24 16:54:54 kensanata A wiki for the web.
2020-08-24 16:55:10 idf "Oddmuse is one Perl script—and, optionally, one Perl script configuration and a suite of Perl script extensions, CSS themes, and installation examples."
2020-08-24 16:55:12 felix And more recently for Gopher / Gemini too. Kind of.
2020-08-24 16:55:14 idf that's uhm a lot of perl
2020-08-24 16:55:29 felix Well, it's written in it.
2020-08-24 16:55:30 kensanata Yeah, I still love Perl. :D
2020-08-24 16:56:32 felix Nothing wrong with that. I have friends who feel guilty about it.
2020-08-24 16:56:41 felix Like, why?!
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2020-08-24 17:03:45 acdw kensanata: I noticed that! (sory was away; making lunch)
2020-08-24 17:03:58 acdw best tag is <marquee>
2020-08-24 17:04:51 felix :D
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2020-08-24 17:05:31 felix Welcome back!
2020-08-24 17:05:49 xq hey felix, are you the one who issued the html thing on kristall?
2020-08-24 17:06:20 felix I am! Thanks for the help!
2020-08-24 17:06:26 xq you're welcome
2020-08-24 17:06:34 xq i found your profile amusing :D
2020-08-24 17:07:09 xq > Game developer with an interest in programming language design and implementation;
2020-08-24 17:07:10 xq this is me :D
2020-08-24 17:07:40 xq including the name :D
2020-08-24 17:07:44 felix It's all a game. ;)
2020-08-24 17:08:00 felix And yes. That could get confusing.
2020-08-24 17:08:00 xq :D
2020-08-24 17:08:14 felix I'm not hogging the nick?
2020-08-24 17:08:23 xq nah
2020-08-24 17:08:38 xq the "x" is the x from Felix
2020-08-24 17:08:52 felix I see!
2020-08-24 17:14:09 felix Good work, by the way. Kristall is my new favorite.
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2020-08-24 17:35:49 @tomasino kristall rules
2020-08-24 17:36:28 @tomasino thanks future xq for coming back in time and helping, felix-to-felix
2020-08-24 17:36:50 felix Hee!
2020-08-24 17:37:02 cypher137 hi
2020-08-24 17:38:17 xq :D
2020-08-24 17:38:29 felix Hello!
2020-08-24 17:58:32 idf goddamn my server sometimes crashes due to an SSL error
2020-08-24 17:59:01 felix Ouch.
2020-08-24 18:04:42 idf might have found the probelm
2020-08-24 18:04:44 idf *problem
2020-08-24 18:05:03 idf tho i am not sure how to test it, since the server doesnt log enough data
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2020-08-24 18:13:02 felix idf: And I know very little about configuring web servers for SSL.
2020-08-24 18:26:14 felix Anyway, see you!
2020-08-24 18:28:41 idf see ya
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2020-08-25 00:09:00 kline xq: i have a curiosity with copy/pasting in kristall, and once i understand it better ill open an issue, but just wanted to check in if it is known or not. essentially, while i can copy text from kristall, not all receiving programs can see it. for example, i can paste this copied text into chromium, but not into terminator (my terminal emulator). i can work around it by pasting into chromiums
2020-08-25 00:09:02 kline omnibar and copying again. i suspect this is probably related to their being multiple paste buffers and kristall doesnt put it in them all.
2020-08-25 00:09:47 kline otherwise, its a decent client and im seriously considering dropping chromium for it, between its own http(s) handling and gemini mirrors of sites i use
2020-08-25 00:09:57 kline (thanks!)
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2020-08-25 04:36:03 epoch not sure if it is a feature or a bug, but castor isn't following gemini redirects to non-gemini URLs
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2020-08-25 04:37:31 epoch for example: gemini://epo.k.vu/4090 (to gopher)
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2020-08-25 06:30:15 ⚡ kensanata is working on https://transjovian.org:1965/gemini
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2020-08-25 06:47:04 @julienxx epoch: why a redirect and not a link?
2020-08-25 06:52:24 kensanata And seconds after I send an email to the mailing list, an awesome list on GitHub appears. From 1 list to 3 in just a few seconds. 🙈
2020-08-25 07:30:53 idf i think I might have fixed the ssl error
2020-08-25 07:34:45 idf not sure if it's the fix but I noticed the server could try to handshake with the client another time after the initial connection which might have resulted in that error i got
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2020-08-25 09:15:28 xq kline, thanks!
2020-08-25 09:15:39 xq i suspect i fail somewhere with Qt setting all clipboard contents
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2020-08-25 13:11:38 makeworld Wow Tva looks nice on Android
2020-08-25 13:11:40 makeworld https://www.oppenlab.net/pr/tva/
2020-08-25 13:17:02 idf haven't tried it yet, i'll try it now
2020-08-25 13:18:33 idf wow it looks great indeed
2020-08-25 13:18:54 idf my figlet banner got squashed on my phone display tho :(
2020-08-25 13:32:15 @tomasino It's nice to have more options
2020-08-25 13:32:16 epoch julienxx: because redirects are usual link-shortener behavior, if gemini isn't supposed to follow redirects to non-gemini URIs, I'll just output a text/gemini with a single link.
2020-08-25 13:48:07 @julienxx I'm not sure about the spec, Castor only redirects to gemini URLs but this could be changed
2020-08-25 13:50:42 @julienxx I never thought about this use case to be honest
2020-08-25 13:56:38 makeworld idf: Yeah it's not respecting line breaks >:(
2020-08-25 13:56:59 makeworld julienxx: It's allowed but not recommended in the spec
2020-08-25 14:04:19 idf im still not sure how to treat redirects
2020-08-25 14:05:17 idf server-side
2020-08-25 14:09:48 makeworld What do you mean?
2020-08-25 14:15:11 idf when is the server supposed to respond with a redirect
2020-08-25 14:19:54 idf i mean i know what redirects are but i'm not exactly sure how to implement them in my server, tho thinking of it more now i got an idea
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2020-08-25 14:40:46 felix I'm learning new tricks!
2020-08-25 14:48:25 felix Also what just doesn't work as gemtext. Bummer.
2020-08-25 15:14:05 makeworld idf: You return a 30 or 31 status code with the new URL in the META
2020-08-25 15:14:18 makeworld When to do it is differnet, maybe the user can specify that
2020-08-25 15:15:44 idf yea i was thinking of adding a field in the configuration if you want a domain to redirect
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2020-08-25 16:07:14 idf welp i just managed to make a script that outputs screenfetch in a gemini page for a demo
2020-08-25 16:10:13 felix Congrats!
2020-08-25 16:12:25 idf thanks!
2020-08-25 16:13:21 idf i just added support for per-user directories so i thought it would be cool to make something like this for the default rasbperrypi user
2020-08-25 16:14:10 felix I see!
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2020-08-25 20:35:52 makeworld Amfora is getting some fancy CI!
2020-08-25 20:35:55 makeworld Not sure if there's a point
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2020-08-26 11:32:00 kevinsan There are a small number of Twitter users worth following. I want to view their recent tweets via Gemini. Before I write something, does this already exist?
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2020-08-26 11:39:40 login no
2020-08-26 11:40:05 login but it can if cgi is used
2020-08-26 11:45:44 @tomasino https://twitrss.me/
2020-08-26 11:45:47 kevinsan I wrote an awk script which is acceptable enough, but with more effort it could be better.
2020-08-26 11:46:00 @tomasino make a feed out of the twitter thingies, then it's easy
2020-08-26 11:46:33 kevinsan hmm, i get Internal Server Error
2020-08-26 11:46:37 @tomasino it was easier before twitter removed RSS
2020-08-26 11:46:45 @tomasino https://feeder.co/knowledge-base/rss-feed-creation/twitter-rss-feeds/
2020-08-26 11:46:52 @tomasino there's a few other tweet->rss links in there
2020-08-26 11:46:57 @tomasino one surely still works
2020-08-26 11:48:29 @tomasino or not
2020-08-26 11:48:31 @tomasino i dunno
2020-08-26 11:48:32 @tomasino :)
2020-08-26 11:49:39 kevinsan they do, but smack of email harvesting or upsell. I think i'll just write my own
2020-08-26 11:50:16 kevinsan (but thanks for the suggestion - i hadn't thought of that avenue)
2020-08-26 12:04:15 felix If I may butt in for a moment, y'all knew about this? https://flounder.online/
2020-08-26 12:12:32 kevinsan felix, i'm aware of its existence, but I don't know what it is - can you summarise?
2020-08-26 12:13:05 felix It appears to be a hosting service for Gemini capsules, but!
2020-08-26 12:13:28 felix Also mirrored on the web automatically.
2020-08-26 12:14:08 felix Portal-style. In fact Gemini links get routed through portal.mozz.us
2020-08-26 12:14:35 felix And to make it more fun, it also supports twtxt status updates.
2020-08-26 12:14:52 kevinsan what's twtxt?
2020-08-26 12:15:40 felix https://twtxt.readthedocs.io/en/latest/
2020-08-26 12:16:20 @tomasino twtxt is cute. i used to have one
2020-08-26 12:16:28 @tomasino i ... may still? i haven't looked in a while
2020-08-26 12:16:41 felix It's popular enough in the tildeverse.
2020-08-26 12:17:02 @tomasino yep
2020-08-26 12:18:22 felix I vaguely remember seeing yours, too.
2020-08-26 12:20:39 felix Wait no, yours are both gone now.
2020-08-26 12:20:52 kevinsan i struggle to form an opinion on these things. they *seem* to replicate the crapfests of the internet. yet, I get the lure...
2020-08-26 12:22:01 kevinsan the advantage is that typically decent people use them initially - but Mastodon shows that it quickly descends
2020-08-26 12:22:05 djph readthedocs.io infuriates me
2020-08-26 12:22:12 felix Yeah. :(
2020-08-26 12:22:13 djph I can't put my finger on why though
2020-08-26 12:22:43 felix And twtxt does reinvent the wheel. I'm well aware of that.
2020-08-26 12:23:00 felix Would rather just use good old newsfeeds.
2020-08-26 12:23:42 felix But it's a challenge. How simple can it get?
2020-08-26 12:24:08 kevinsan djph, lol I'm not sure why, but I only ever reach readthedocs pages via search engine hits.
2020-08-26 12:24:36 kevinsan i mean i'm not sure why the pages infuriate you
2020-08-26 12:24:52 djph kevinsan: I think it's their UI
2020-08-26 12:25:30 djph Personally, I'd rather just get linked to a pdf
2020-08-26 12:25:31 kevinsan yes, it reminds me of old MSDN or IBM RedBook sites.
2020-08-26 12:26:10 kevinsan perhaps they're giving you flashbacks to the dark-ages of proprietary hell
2020-08-26 12:26:28 djph maybe it's that - the whole "bad documentation is bad, and now this site makes it easy to share bad documentation"
2020-08-26 12:27:08 kevinsan and at the same time dress it up to make it *look* better than it is.
2020-08-26 12:28:46 felix I just write Unix manual pages.
2020-08-26 12:29:11 felix pod2html emits very clean markup, a bit of CSS and they look great.
2020-08-26 12:32:14 ⚡ felix starts thinking how the format translates to gemtext.
2020-08-26 12:43:24 @tomasino ugh, i really don't grok wine
2020-08-26 12:45:03 enpo Regarding twtxt: One could have a usenet server where each user got its own group and have moderation turned on. Then you could post to your own group and others could follow the group
2020-08-26 12:46:07 enpo Usenet would NOT reinvent the wheel :>
2020-08-26 12:46:40 felix Well, huh.
2020-08-26 12:49:42 enpo Federation you ask? Already a part of the spec :D
2020-08-26 12:50:53 felix That's fun to think about.
2020-08-26 12:53:47 enpo Yes :)
2020-08-26 12:54:43 felix I caught the tail end of Usenet, you know. Roughly between 1999 and 2001 or so.
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2020-08-26 12:56:34 felix Sadly (late) Usenet had all the toxicity Reddit does today.
2020-08-26 12:56:55 ⚡ felix waves!
2020-08-26 13:05:34 Nalaph The default state of any system trends towards entropy. I think that applies to social settings almost more than it does to scientific endeavors.
2020-08-26 13:07:02 felix Good point!
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2020-08-26 13:11:09 felix Hello!
2020-08-26 13:11:14 kevinsan Nalaph, it's a compelling metaphor, but intuitively I think the mechanisms are different. is boredom the mechanism for social systems, I wonder?
2020-08-26 13:11:53 felix After a while we do fall into a rut.
2020-08-26 13:12:28 felix The trick is not letting toxicity set in as well.
2020-08-26 13:12:32 Nalaph kevinsan: It's *a* mechanism, certainly. Not sure if it's the driving one or not.
2020-08-26 13:14:03 kevinsan a characteristic i notice in some children is that, when bored, they goad others.
2020-08-26 13:19:26 login kevinsan: like, trolling?
2020-08-26 13:20:42 Nalaph Anonymity, i think, lends greatly to that sort of behavior. It's much less prevalant in smaller social circles, however, and being part of a collective, moderated social group helps minimize it's impact.
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2020-08-26 13:24:12 @tomasino we have a lovely net news on tildeverse that's not connected to usenet
2020-08-26 13:24:40 @tomasino you can get at it from tilde.club, cosmic.voyage, tilde.black, and a few others
2020-08-26 13:24:57 @tomasino https://tilde.club/wiki/usenet-news.html
2020-08-26 13:25:23 @tomasino there's private groups in most tildes, and things that start with tilde.* federate
2020-08-26 13:26:49 login Nalaph: privacy is really the other side of that coin
2020-08-26 13:27:13 login you have to do the right thing even when there is no incentive to be bad or good
2020-08-26 13:27:23 login kind-of like putting the trolley back in the trolley stand
2020-08-26 13:30:13 felix tomasino: oh nice! Says there it's open to the internet?
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2020-08-26 13:33:16 ⚡ felix waves.
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2020-08-26 13:37:52 login if i knew how to connect to usenet
2020-08-26 13:38:42 felix There are instructions on that page.
2020-08-26 13:39:30 login usenet is just a different protocol on the internet right?
2020-08-26 13:39:43 login or is it different from the internet and requires some kind of isp support?
2020-08-26 13:44:46 @tomasino just a protocol
2020-08-26 13:45:03 @tomasino like gemini. :)
2020-08-26 13:50:22 felix Thunderbird supports it. Indeed most e-mail clients should.
2020-08-26 13:50:59 djph Just make sure you're sending plaintext, and wrapping at 72 chars or so
2020-08-26 14:16:23 felix To change the subject: do people keep Gemini capsules in two or more places?
2020-08-26 14:16:38 felix Is it common? Is it frowned upon?
2020-08-26 14:32:15 ℹ SocialistWolf is now known as vulpine
2020-08-26 14:38:45 kevinsan felix, if you mean two capsules with the same content, then no - i've not seen a whole lot of duplication of content.
2020-08-26 14:39:22 kevinsan but if there's a reason why you'd want to do that, then it's entirely up to you.
2020-08-26 14:40:07 felix I hadn't thought about mirroring, just in general.
2020-08-26 14:40:22 felix Since it's early on and people kindly provide hosting for free.
2020-08-26 14:40:32 felix Often on a shoestring budget.
2020-08-26 14:42:03 @tomasino i'm not prolific enough for that
2020-08-26 14:42:22 kevinsan i think it works to everyone's advantage to make discoverability as easy as possible. duplicate content makes search tedious.
2020-08-26 14:42:46 kevinsan but having separate sites for different content - that's perfectly sensible to me.
2020-08-26 14:44:23 felix Thanks! That's good to know.
2020-08-26 14:45:32 felix tomasino: Maybe you have the right idea. I'm definitely a bit nuts.
2020-08-26 14:46:16 felix But yeah, been getting ideas now that the floodgates are open.
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2020-08-26 15:02:42 ⚡ felix waves!
2020-08-26 15:02:58 ⚡ acdw waves back
2020-08-26 15:03:03 acdw how's it going this morning
2020-08-26 15:03:42 felix Slowly. How are you?
2020-08-26 15:04:24 acdw I'm alright! getting used to exwm haha
2020-08-26 15:05:26 felix Never heard of it. How's that working out?
2020-08-26 15:08:51 idf I used exwm a while back, I think I still have my configs somewhere on gitlab
2020-08-26 15:09:19 idf felix: emacs wm. Basically you get X windows into your regular emacs interfarce
2020-08-26 15:09:25 idf if im not mistaken
2020-08-26 15:09:38 idf *interface
2020-08-26 15:09:57 felix I saw on GitHub. Interesting!
2020-08-26 15:15:19 acdw it's wokring okay
2020-08-26 15:15:25 acdw i'm also learning emacs at the same time, sooooo
2020-08-26 15:15:32 acdw it's going ~great~
2020-08-26 15:15:57 felix :D
2020-08-26 15:16:52 idf yeah first time i tried exwm i didnt really got used to it, as i wasnt really used to emacs(I used to be a vivivi satanist btw), but now I definetly see me using exwm haha
2020-08-26 15:20:19 acdw lol yes -- i just switched from vim not long ago
2020-08-26 15:20:48 acdw actually i used vi for some early system config on my new laptop and I had a hard time b/c i'm at the level now that the muscle memory is more emacs
2020-08-26 15:20:59 acdw I kept hitting C-x C-s
2020-08-26 15:21:02 idf i know that feeling
2020-08-26 15:21:02 acdw vim was not please
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2020-08-26 15:36:58 felix Welcome back!
2020-08-26 15:37:11 acdw heeey
2020-08-26 15:37:29 acdw mu4e hung while sending a mail, so i had to restart my X session
2020-08-26 15:37:39 acdw one problem with exwm lol
2020-08-26 15:38:43 idf yea that's what made me stop using it eventually
2020-08-26 15:41:05 acdw we'll see how it goes. if i end up switching away from exwm, i think i'll go with something like dwm with 2 tags: emacs and firefox
2020-08-26 15:41:32 acdw i would use awesome but it's so much stuf by default and i'm lazy nowadays
2020-08-26 15:42:10 acdw ... he says as hes using emacs
2020-08-26 15:42:43 idf lel
2020-08-26 15:43:17 wgreenhouse acdw: I'm not using exwm anymore but only because I basically don't use X anymore
2020-08-26 15:43:25 felix dwm is real nice, but I seriously dislike the attitude of its creators.
2020-08-26 15:43:28 wgreenhouse ^ chromeos/termux heretic
2020-08-26 15:43:34 felix :D
2020-08-26 15:43:57 wgreenhouse felix: yeah, suckless don't seem to like their users much
2020-08-26 15:44:22 felix Neither do the creators of Termux.
2020-08-26 15:44:28 acdw felix: yeah the more I read about what they're up to the more it's like -_-
2020-08-26 15:44:59 acdw i guess awesome or xmonad don't have that problem
2020-08-26 15:45:16 acdw ooh I could try learning fennel and configging awesome in fennel
2020-08-26 15:45:25 wgreenhouse felix: re termux I'm actually cautiously optimistic about the direction of the project, but I have contingency plans if it all goes to shit
2020-08-26 15:45:44 wgreenhouse atm it is my most used distro, though
2020-08-26 15:46:03 acdw oh is termux a distro? I thought it was a terminal emulator
2020-08-26 15:46:07 felix Whatever works for you!
2020-08-26 15:46:23 felix It's *also* a terminal emulator, since it has to include one on Android.
2020-08-26 15:46:32 wgreenhouse acdw: it's a *nix userland shoved into the data dir of an android app which provides the terminal emulator
2020-08-26 15:46:47 wgreenhouse apt/dpkg-based but not actually related to debian
2020-08-26 15:46:54 acdw oh that sounds pretty great tbh
2020-08-26 15:47:01 wgreenhouse everything compiled against android libc
2020-08-26 15:47:01 felix But it's also a distro, and they're not taking that side seriously.
2020-08-26 15:47:16 acdw aahhhhh
2020-08-26 15:47:18 wgreenhouse wdym
2020-08-26 15:47:36 felix Rolling releases break stuff all the time.
2020-08-26 15:47:42 felix That's for people who fool around with Linux.
2020-08-26 15:47:52 felix Not for people who need their OS to stay put and let them work.
2020-08-26 15:48:14 felix I didn't give up on Termux out of boredom, suffice to say.
2020-08-26 15:48:42 wgreenhouse oh, yes, it is indeed rolling release, and without an alternative/stable branch
2020-08-26 15:49:42 wgreenhouse totally get that that is unworkable for many
2020-08-26 15:50:45 felix Might try it again if I ever get a reasonably modern device again.
2020-08-26 15:50:55 felix Knowing what to expect, this time.
2020-08-26 15:51:16 wgreenhouse yeah, they had some breaking API changes related to android >= 6 etc.
2020-08-26 15:51:33 felix Though right now ConnectBot and a tilde account look pretty good.
2020-08-26 15:51:42 felix If the net is working, of course.
2020-08-26 15:51:43 wgreenhouse indeed. :) that can do a lot.
2020-08-26 15:52:27 wgreenhouse at the moment my PAN or redundant array of cheap stuff looks like: android device, chromebook, rpi running slackwarearm, tilde account, and uh an rsync.net account I should remember I have
2020-08-26 15:52:39 wgreenhouse or discontinue, one or the other
2020-08-26 15:52:59 @ben rsync.net is great
2020-08-26 15:53:03 acdw I want to ask how you like rsync.net but it looks like you've answered the question
2020-08-26 15:53:06 @ben i use their borg offering
2020-08-26 15:53:10 acdw it's really cheap right?
2020-08-26 15:53:19 @ben yeah
2020-08-26 15:53:21 @ben https://rsync.net/products/attic.html
2020-08-26 15:53:28 wgreenhouse acdw: I use it as a remote for my git-annex repo.
2020-08-26 15:53:30 @ben 1.5¢/gb/mo
2020-08-26 15:53:40 wgreenhouse it's really good I just tend to forget I have it
2020-08-26 15:53:42 wgreenhouse :P
2020-08-26 15:54:02 wgreenhouse and in my latest redo of my infrastructure I haven't remembered to add back that remote
2020-08-26 15:54:08 @ben i have 1tb of space and it's about $90/yr
2020-08-26 15:54:22 @ben i really like borg+borgmatic
2020-08-26 15:55:10 acdw that is pretty good -- i lost all my data in a dumb data move a few months ago
2020-08-26 15:55:18 acdw so this would probs be good for me
2020-08-26 15:55:22 @ben All archives: 1.48 TB 1.02 TB 146.32 GB
2020-08-26 15:55:29 @ben for the tilde.team dailies ^
2020-08-26 15:55:32 acdw nice
2020-08-26 15:55:41 @ben original, compressed, deduplicated
2020-08-26 15:56:34 acdw oh dang rad
2020-08-26 15:58:16 wgreenhouse for private git repos it's nice too, they have git-shell and git-annex-shell installed
2020-08-26 16:00:31 @ben nice
2020-08-26 16:02:00 ⚡ wgreenhouse adds todo to find his rsync.net credentials again and sync back up with that, lol
2020-08-26 16:02:13 acdw oh dang that does sound nice
2020-08-26 16:02:30 acdw i need to do an accounting of the money i'm spenidng for online stuff to see what i can or need to afford
2020-08-26 16:07:48 felix :D
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2020-08-26 16:09:23 wgreenhouse I should investigate replacing irccloud with the weechat relay stuff
2020-08-26 16:09:45 wgreenhouse I really like irccloud's mobile app and not running a bouncer
2020-08-26 16:09:50 @ben https://tilde.team/wiki/irc#weechat-relays
2020-08-26 16:09:58 @ben weechat-android is really lovely :)
2020-08-26 16:10:46 wgreenhouse ben: thx, do you know if setup would be similar from ~club?
2020-08-26 16:11:00 wgreenhouse I can ask at #club also
2020-08-26 16:11:02 @ben no
2020-08-26 16:11:07 @ben you'd need to use the ssh transport
2020-08-26 16:11:17 @ben we don't have a wildcard cert so that method wouldn't work
2020-08-26 16:11:21 wgreenhouse ah that's fine
2020-08-26 16:11:49 @ben deepend's dns for ~club doesn't integrate with certbot so we can't issue one
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2020-08-26 16:37:56 acdw helo again
2020-08-26 16:40:00 felix Welcome back!
2020-08-26 16:41:28 acdw :D
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2020-08-27 10:34:37 ⚡ idf waves
2020-08-27 10:35:33 idf after some time of keeping the server down for some fixes both system-wise and programming-wise, I have started my own hosting service!
2020-08-27 11:30:20 @tomasino Nice!
2020-08-27 11:30:35 @tomasino Gemini hosting only or a whole tilde?
2020-08-27 11:33:38 idf just gemini hosting for now atleast
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2020-08-27 11:40:13 idf i sent it on the maillist if you're interested
2020-08-27 11:43:38 @tomasino i see! :D
2020-08-27 11:43:43 @tomasino hope you get lots of users
2020-08-27 11:44:38 idf thanks you :D
2020-08-27 11:46:56 idf *thank
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2020-08-27 12:43:58 felix Status report: flounder.online works a lot like a (hosted) personal wiki.
2020-08-27 12:44:10 felix And it turns out to have a feature we discussed here a few days ago.
2020-08-27 12:44:36 felix Small image files are embedded in the web rendition of a page.
2020-08-27 12:52:16 idf very interesting
2020-08-27 12:53:15 idf how is the image rendered exactly
2020-08-27 12:53:37 idf by the client or is it from something like libcaca and turns images into ascii art
2020-08-27 12:54:21 felix Wrong word. I mean inlined?
2020-08-27 12:54:41 felix See for yourself: felixp7.flounder.online
2020-08-27 12:55:24 felix It just becomes an img element with the link label as alt text.
2020-08-27 12:55:37 idf i see
2020-08-27 12:56:22 felix Makes sense on the web, while preserving the spirit of Gemini.
2020-08-27 12:56:54 login data: inline?
2020-08-27 12:57:01 login like google images?
2020-08-27 12:57:29 felix No, it simply points at the image file on the server.
2020-08-27 12:57:58 login oh, i see
2020-08-27 12:58:00 login so like <img>
2020-08-27 12:58:12 felix That's what I said.
2020-08-27 12:58:43 felix Visit the same URL with both a Gemini client and a web browser.
2020-08-27 12:59:55 idf i see now
2020-08-27 12:59:56 idf very cool
2020-08-27 13:06:22 felix Clever thing, isn't it? Just the thing to ease people into Gemini.
2020-08-27 13:10:23 felix And it looks great on mobile.
2020-08-27 13:10:44 felix Gemtext is perfect for that in fact, I hadn't thought about it.
2020-08-27 13:11:11 felix But if anything the spec makes it better suited for mobile than terminals.
2020-08-27 13:11:26 idf i think the spec makes it better suited for everything
2020-08-27 13:11:30 felix While Gopher is the other way around.
2020-08-27 13:11:32 felix :D
2020-08-27 13:11:52 idf by everything i mean every device screen
2020-08-27 13:12:06 felix You have a point there. I should write a Tcl/Tk viewer.
2020-08-27 13:12:27 idf i mean it's very simple and it lets the client decide how to wrap the text and all
2020-08-27 13:13:14 idf a tcl/tk viewer would certainly be interesting
2020-08-27 13:14:33 felix I'll definitely consider it then!
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2020-08-27 13:57:04 ⚡ felix waves!
2020-08-27 14:08:19 kline hello
2020-08-27 14:08:39 idf hi
2020-08-27 14:23:21 @tomasino Moo
2020-08-27 14:26:08 felix Meow?
2020-08-27 14:27:41 idf oo oo aa aa
2020-08-27 14:29:26 dkibi morning
2020-08-27 14:30:20 felix :D
2020-08-27 14:32:45 @tomasino :D
2020-08-27 14:32:52 @tomasino eep opp ork ahh ahh
2020-08-27 14:40:29 ⚡ felix <- actually banging out some code.
2020-08-27 15:26:11 felix Almost there...
2020-08-27 15:29:37 idf u can do it
2020-08-27 15:30:04 @tomasino keep it up!
2020-08-27 15:32:50 felix It's alive! Aliiive!
2020-08-27 15:33:45 idf yay
2020-08-27 15:33:51 companion_cube tcl/tk is definitely in tune with the minimalistic aspect, innit?
2020-08-27 15:34:06 @tomasino huzzah!!
2020-08-27 15:34:19 felix Definitely!
2020-08-27 15:34:26 felix 87 lines, this has to be some sort of record.
2020-08-27 15:34:35 companion_cube felix: care to share?
2020-08-27 15:34:38 kayw please do
2020-08-27 15:34:41 felix One moment, lemme upload it somewhere.
2020-08-27 15:34:49 kayw tcl/tk looks very cool, i need to look into it
2020-08-27 15:34:51 felix Beware, it's *very* primitive.
2020-08-27 15:36:16 companion_cube I regularly consider learning the tk part
2020-08-27 15:36:57 companion_cube but there's still a bit of learning curve, at least with the bindings I know
2020-08-27 15:37:07 idf i kinda want to make a client too
2020-08-27 15:37:39 felix https://gist.github.com/felixplesoianu/df324ad0cc4caca93dbd506084ea3d5b
2020-08-27 15:37:50 felix Temp location, don't count on it staying there.
2020-08-27 15:38:03 companion_cube oh dang, it also render gemtext
2020-08-27 15:38:19 ⚡ tomasino slurps
2020-08-27 15:38:31 felix That's what I was aiming for.
2020-08-27 15:38:41 companion_cube ah I thought it was a client too
2020-08-27 15:38:58 felix No way I can bang out a working client in an hour.
2020-08-27 15:39:23 companion_cube hu, I mean, TLS is a pain, but isn't tcl that magical? :D
2020-08-27 15:39:46 felix It is!
2020-08-27 15:41:53 felix Just look at that code. I'm nowhere near that fast a coder normally.
2020-08-27 15:41:55 companion_cube that seems like a useful skill
2020-08-27 15:43:41 companion_cube do you have a sample file? can't find how to have kristall give me the raw content 😂
2020-08-27 15:44:06 companion_cube ahh nvm
2020-08-27 15:44:42 companion_cube holy fuck it works
2020-08-27 15:44:51 felix That's what I said!
2020-08-27 15:45:17 companion_cube http://vrac.cedeela.fr/2020-08-27-114456_1367x1004_scrot.png nice
2020-08-27 15:45:38 felix Thanks!
2020-08-27 15:45:43 felix Looks as expected.
2020-08-27 15:46:58 companion_cube I guess the format being line based is a big help
2020-08-27 15:47:08 felix Exactly!
2020-08-27 15:47:20 felix In fact it's a perfect match for the Tk text widget.
2020-08-27 15:47:31 companion_cube :)
2020-08-27 15:47:47 felix You'd think it was designed that way.
2020-08-27 15:48:21 companion_cube :-°
2020-08-27 15:51:37 felix So you don't have a Gemini capsule yet?
2020-08-27 15:52:28 companion_cube no, I don't write content :(
2020-08-27 15:53:07 @tomasino :(
2020-08-27 15:55:07 companion_cube I have a blog I always feel guilty about because I never update it
2020-08-27 15:56:23 felix I have too many.
2020-08-27 15:57:02 felix Try a digital garden instead, it's a lot less pressure.
2020-08-27 15:57:10 felix And gemtext is inviting.
2020-08-27 15:57:12 companion_cube :D
2020-08-27 15:57:17 companion_cube hum
2020-08-27 15:57:28 companion_cube are y'all interested in formal logic? :p
2020-08-27 15:57:44 felix I'm afraid it's a bit over my head.
2020-08-27 15:57:53 felix Outside of what little I remember from high school.
2020-08-27 15:58:01 felix And Prolog.
2020-08-27 15:58:01 @tomasino i got my fill in descrete math
2020-08-27 15:59:11 companion_cube maybe I should try some day, will look at what's the easiest for hosting (a Go server probably)
2020-08-27 16:00:15 @tomasino hosting gemini?
2020-08-27 16:00:20 companion_cube yep
2020-08-27 16:00:34 companion_cube although the pb is, most people I know won't know how to access gemini
2020-08-27 16:01:21 dkibi companion_cube: are you reading e.g. CAPCOM? I so far didn't post any formal logic stuff because I assumed it would probably be boring for most, but if there is at least one reader this might change ^^
2020-08-27 16:05:22 @tomasino write what you enjoy. there's always people out there lurking who will enjoy it
2020-08-27 16:07:33 dkibi yeah you're right. and I don't even find time to write about what I want to write about that might be enjoyable for many
2020-08-27 16:09:31 dkibi the other day I read Jason Shiga's Meanwhile and I really enjoyed it and I wanted to write down my thoughts about it too ^^
2020-08-27 16:10:12 felix There's at least one server out there that does both Gemini and HTTP.
2020-08-27 16:10:42 felix And there are always portals.
2020-08-27 16:11:40 idf shameless plug: If you want you could use my hosting service O.o, doesn't support http proxying yet tho
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2020-08-27 16:11:51 idf i mean mirroring not proxying
2020-08-27 16:12:07 idf but i have an idea on how to do it with just a gitlab page
2020-08-27 16:17:57 idf i really want to start a blog on gemini but idk what to write
2020-08-27 16:19:54 felix I didn't know either when I joined ctrl-c.club a week or two ago.
2020-08-27 16:20:06 felix Or flounder.online yesterday.
2020-08-27 16:20:30 felix But yeah, no more blogs for me. Got too many already.
2020-08-27 16:20:36 idf hah
2020-08-27 16:21:47 ▬▬▶ acdw has joined #gemini
2020-08-27 16:22:02 acdw good morning everyone!
2020-08-27 16:22:06 felix Hello!
2020-08-27 16:22:09 idf hello
2020-08-27 16:22:15 acdw do yall know if there's any way to get elpher to stream music?
2020-08-27 16:22:29 acdw I want to listen to the gemcast (by ben) but I don't want to install diohsc
2020-08-27 16:22:47 acdw also how are you?
2020-08-27 16:23:04 felix Good! I hacked together a thing earlier.
2020-08-27 16:23:15 acdw oh yeah?
2020-08-27 16:23:20 felix We were just talking about taking the plunge.
2020-08-27 16:23:28 idf same, i just shortened some code that bugged me today
2020-08-27 16:24:14 acdw the plunge?!
2020-08-27 16:24:28 felix You know, making a Gemini capsule.
2020-08-27 16:24:41 acdw oh yes! that plunge, lol
2020-08-27 16:24:58 acdw reminds me, i still need to buy another vps
2020-08-27 16:28:15 felix :D
2020-08-27 16:30:16 felix As for the other thing: gemtext viewer prototype in 60-90 minutes.
2020-08-27 16:30:25 felix In Tcl/Tk.
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2020-08-27 16:36:12 ⚡ felix waves!
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2020-08-27 16:38:43 felix Oh! I should probably share this: https://mastodon.online/web/statuses/104759653876001442
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2020-08-27 17:48:49 felix Welcome back!
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2020-08-27 17:50:32 acdw heeeyy
2020-08-27 17:50:36 acdw lol
2020-08-27 17:50:44 acdw sorry I am hacking on exwm so I keep restarting it
2020-08-27 17:50:50 acdw which kills circe
2020-08-27 17:51:31 idf makes sense
2020-08-27 17:52:23 acdw oh no now i'm watching this video my wife sent me
2020-08-27 17:52:25 acdw https://www.youtube.com/embed/_JmNzIN0c2c?rel=0&vq=hd720
2020-08-27 17:52:41 acdw perspectival
2020-08-27 17:52:53 felix May I recommend a nested X server? :P
2020-08-27 17:53:03 acdw ooh like xephyr?
2020-08-27 17:53:22 felix Yep!
2020-08-27 17:53:23 acdw that could help! OR I could keep my chats in a tmux session
2020-08-27 17:53:27 acdw and sign into it
2020-08-27 17:53:34 felix Or that!
2020-08-27 17:53:40 acdw sorry, "attache" to it
2020-08-27 17:53:52 acdw or I could just keep spamming this channel
2020-08-27 17:53:54 acdw :D
2020-08-27 17:55:13 idf lel
2020-08-27 17:55:32 felix Frankly I like irssi better than hexchat, but it hogs a terminal.
2020-08-27 17:56:40 idf I really like ERC
2020-08-27 17:57:28 felix :D
2020-08-27 17:59:11 felix All good apps run on the Emacs operating system. It only lacks a decent text editor. :P
2020-08-27 17:59:21 acdw idf: ERC over circe? just curious
2020-08-27 17:59:31 idf nah just play M-x erc-tls
2020-08-27 17:59:34 idf *plain
2020-08-27 18:00:00 idf wow that typo looks like the autocomplete made it
2020-08-27 18:00:14 acdw hehe
2020-08-27 18:00:32 acdw oh I meant ERC > circe? You like ERC more than circe, I'm guesing
2020-08-27 18:00:42 idf ooh
2020-08-27 18:00:48 idf sorry i haven't used circe
2020-08-27 18:00:58 acdw haha no worries
2020-08-27 18:00:59 idf so cant say anything about it
2020-08-27 18:01:07 companion_cube felix: you can probably run neovim inside emacs
2020-08-27 18:01:13 companion_cube to get the best of both worlds
2020-08-27 18:01:16 felix Figures.
2020-08-27 18:01:19 acdw lol yes
2020-08-27 18:01:25 idf or just use evil-mode if you want
2020-08-27 18:01:50 acdw eventually someone will use neovim's embedding capabilities to embed that directly in emacs
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2020-08-27 18:10:25 felix Hello!
2020-08-27 18:10:45 lukee hi felix
2020-08-27 18:10:53 felix How are you?
2020-08-27 18:11:19 lukee Good, just writing a blog post about "taking back control"
2020-08-27 18:11:46 felix Sounds good!
2020-08-27 18:12:10 lukee I'm discovering there is a swathe of the web that can be viewed quite happily in a gemini client
2020-08-27 18:12:30 lukee so maybe we can just release the gemini-bots onto the web?
2020-08-27 18:12:47 felix Well... in Kristall anyway. And it fails silently on some pages.
2020-08-27 18:13:29 lukee I've been working on a generic html->gmi converter that can plug into many work flows
2020-08-27 18:13:38 felix But if the two can interleave, and they can, that's going to help.
2020-08-27 18:13:47 felix Nice!
2020-08-27 18:13:49 lukee https://github.com/LukeEmmet/html2gmi
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2020-08-27 18:14:09 lukee I got some user requests recently that made me return to it
2020-08-27 18:14:23 felix I joined flounder.online, that serves the same content over both protocols.
2020-08-27 18:14:39 felix And wrote my first gemtext viewer just earlier.
2020-08-27 18:14:48 idf I finally got a fix for that SSL error i had btw
2020-08-27 18:14:48 lukee what is the editing interface - the http website?
2020-08-27 18:15:22 lukee cool - what is the UI layer your gemtext viewer is written for?
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2020-08-27 18:15:50 felix That's exactly right, it's basically a kind of simple wiki.
2020-08-27 18:15:58 felix And it's Tcl/Tk.
2020-08-27 18:16:15 lukee nice
2020-08-27 18:16:27 lukee are you going to put a networking client behind the gemtext?
2020-08-27 18:17:07 felix I don't plan to, but who knows, in the future.
2020-08-27 18:17:17 lukee so what is the use case you have in mind?
2020-08-27 18:17:24 felix Plenty of good clients out there, I need a local viewer.
2020-08-27 18:17:44 lukee to assist with authoring to preview the content?
2020-08-27 18:18:33 felix Yeah, because Bombadillo doesn't do much formatting and Kristall doesn't have a file dialog yet.
2020-08-27 18:18:50 felix It was mostly for fun, TBH, to see if it's really as easy as it seems.
2020-08-27 18:19:04 lukee I suppose it was?!
2020-08-27 18:19:26 felix Took me something like 60-90 minutes for a working prototype.
2020-08-27 18:19:36 lukee that's productive
2020-08-27 18:19:52 felix Couldn't believe my eyes.
2020-08-27 18:19:53 lukee I'm not familiar with either Tcl or Tk
2020-08-27 18:20:25 felix https://gist.github.com/felixplesoianu/df324ad0cc4caca93dbd506084ea3d5b
2020-08-27 18:20:44 lukee Do you have to manually deal with reflow, or does the toolkit do it for you?
2020-08-27 18:22:11 felix The latter. It's powerful enough to render HTML if you can parse it.
2020-08-27 18:22:31 felix Complete with forms.
2020-08-27 18:22:48 lukee screenshot?
2020-08-27 18:22:58 felix I don't have one yet, sorry.
2020-08-27 18:23:36 lukee every gui needs a screenshot ;)
2020-08-27 18:24:49 felix Well, yeah, once it's a little more substantial.
2020-08-27 18:25:38 lukee good luck. Its quite addictive to see documents emerge out of the ether just the way you want them
2020-08-27 18:25:49 felix Thanks! yes it is!
2020-08-27 18:27:05 ⚡ felix stifles a yawn.
2020-08-27 18:27:12 felix Sorry, got to go. See you!
2020-08-27 18:27:17 lukee ok bye
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2020-08-27 21:25:39 lukee just finished my essay/post/thing \o/
2020-08-27 21:25:43 lukee gemini://gemini.marmaladefoo.com/blog/27-Aug-2020_Web_client_autonomy.gmi
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2020-08-27 22:13:18 kevinsan lukee, good article (other than the grammatical car-crash that is "without hardly any significant loss")
2020-08-27 22:14:02 lukee haha.
2020-08-27 22:14:03 kevinsan the next item on your list of ponderings is "how to identify the sites in the long-tail"
2020-08-27 22:14:22 lukee I like to car crash metaphors too
2020-08-27 22:15:38 lukee "without hardly any significant loss" -> "usually without any significant loss"
2020-08-27 22:15:45 lukee just fixed
2020-08-27 22:16:20 kevinsan is that article also visible on the web?
2020-08-27 22:16:56 lukee only via a proxy
2020-08-27 22:17:42 kevinsan your mention of 'preaching to the converted' is a clue that it should really be published on the world-wide-internets
2020-08-27 22:18:17 lukee https://portal.mozz.us/gemini/gemini.marmaladefoo.com/blog/27-Aug-2020_Web_client_autonomy.gmi
2020-08-27 22:18:52 kevinsan I don't think search engines will reach that, will they?
2020-08-27 22:18:56 lukee I dont really have a web blog, although I do have a website
2020-08-27 22:19:15 lukee Maybe I should put it up there.
2020-08-27 22:20:49 kevinsan i would - gets the message out to people who identify with your words.
2020-08-27 22:24:05 lukee I'm putting it up there now.
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2020-08-27 22:27:28 xj9 we have a web gateway on sunshine gardens dot org that serves gemlogs over http for sharing
2020-08-27 22:28:42 xj9 its ok, i'm good browing with kristall, but i'm not trying to spread words
2020-08-27 22:31:42 lukee Its on my site now here: https://www.marmaladefoo.com/uploads/writings/27-Aug-2020_Web_client_autonomy.htm
2020-08-27 22:32:10 lukee Its nice I can just save the current page from GemiNaut and dump that in an html file
2020-08-27 22:43:13 lukee xj9: how often do you find you have to fire up a web browser after following a web link in Kristall from a gemini page?
2020-08-27 22:43:56 lukee I recall that Kristall has an intrinsic html/http viewer
2020-08-27 23:04:11 kline lukee: im dangerously close to just not using chromium any more in place of kristall
2020-08-27 23:04:36 kline it does a reasonably good job at rendering pages, and what it cant do is what i dont really want anyway
2020-08-27 23:04:42 xj9 lukee: if i'm browsing in kristall, i just stay there
2020-08-27 23:05:14 xj9 the only thing that i would like is slightly better support for forms so i can browse patchfoo there too
2020-08-27 23:05:56 xj9 if the page doesn't work in kristall i usually ignore it
2020-08-27 23:06:00 lukee This is my experience too (not using Kristall though, but unreleased GemiNaut). Only in about 10% of cases do I decide I need to launch a "real" browser now
2020-08-27 23:07:21 lukee xj9: forms are a nice feature of the web
2020-08-27 23:07:45 lukee but quite often it seems websites put a javascript layer on top of them :(
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2020-08-28 00:34:20 login hi makeworld
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2020-08-28 08:44:18 idf after hacking some imports from C and testing with openssl s_client geminim finally doesn't crash when a client attempts to resume a session
2020-08-28 08:44:54 idf also i made a PR to Nim to add set_session_id_context to the libs so importing from C in the code itself won't be necessary :p
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2020-08-28 09:57:14 rmgr @Lukee your article has inspired me to try and build html2gmi functionality into av98
2020-08-28 09:58:10 rmgr The main way I use av98 is to ssh to a raspberry pi in my house from which ever device I'm on so http links don't work for me so this would be great
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2020-08-28 11:03:57 rmgr Well I've got it working by using a subprocess call to html2gmi. When I feel adventurous I guess I'll have a bash at porting that to python!
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2020-08-28 11:46:22 lukee rgmr: glad you managed to get it to work for you
2020-08-28 11:47:09 lukee porting to python is probably non-trivial. There is an underlying Go library html2gemini which does the heavy lifting of html parsing and emitting the content
2020-08-28 11:49:08 lukee there are probably some good html parsing libraries for python though, so you could build on top of them
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2020-08-28 12:21:19 idf i love lain
2020-08-28 12:21:25 lain i love lain
2020-08-28 12:23:24 ⚡ tomasino breathlessly whispers "giiiirls"
2020-08-28 12:57:52 ⚡ tiwesdaeg waves
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2020-08-28 14:25:31 Cadey the game
2020-08-28 15:10:42 @tomasino is afoot?
2020-08-28 15:11:18 wgreenhouse Cadey: thx for reminding me to visit my astrobotany plant
2020-08-28 15:11:20 wgreenhouse :)
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2020-08-28 16:05:54 ⚡ felix waves!
2020-08-28 16:06:02 felix Hello!
2020-08-28 16:06:17 companion_cube dang, kristall is not very convenient when it comes to renew certificates
2020-08-28 16:06:33 xq companion_cube: complaint taken
2020-08-28 16:06:44 xq i'd love to hear improved methods
2020-08-28 16:07:38 @tomasino didn't i put an issue in with a suggestion?
2020-08-28 16:07:41 @tomasino i thought i did
2020-08-28 16:07:54 @tomasino a button on the cert warning page to "revoke/renew"?
2020-08-28 16:08:11 companion_cube xq: a button for revoking trust immediately? idk
2020-08-28 16:08:27 companion_cube I wonder if the new certificate is signed with the old one
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2020-08-28 16:15:10 felix It's a bit clunky right now, yeah. Can't complain, at version 0.3
2020-08-28 16:19:36 companion_cube ahah indeed :D
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2020-08-28 17:38:43 xq you can also just turn off TOFU :D
2020-08-28 17:46:03 felix Guess people are security-conscious. Comes with the territory.
2020-08-28 17:46:14 @tomasino i like the warnings
2020-08-28 17:46:24 @tomasino but it takes a few to manually revoke
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2020-08-28 19:41:47 lukee hi folks
2020-08-28 19:42:02 @tomasino hiya
2020-08-28 19:43:16 lukee did you make any progress with gemini+stream://?
2020-08-28 19:43:39 @tomasino just the mailing list post
2020-08-28 19:43:48 @tomasino i don't actually have any server software or client software i've written yet
2020-08-28 19:43:56 @tomasino i just talk about stuff and write content
2020-08-28 19:44:20 @tomasino unless you count gemini://tomasino.org but xq "wrote" most of that
2020-08-28 19:47:17 lukee Nice. I saw a post somewhere on the internet which was a simple command line app that ran a minimal webserver piped into any command line application
2020-08-28 19:47:30 lukee can't find it now
2020-08-28 19:47:53 lukee your minimal server reminded me of it
2020-08-28 19:47:54 @tomasino python3 -m http.server 8000
2020-08-28 19:47:55 @tomasino ?
2020-08-28 19:48:04 @tomasino starts the current directory as a web server on whatever port
2020-08-28 19:48:28 @tomasino i use that a lot for local dev stuff
2020-08-28 19:48:40 lukee no, you take *any* existing app and attach it to this thing. Voila you have a dynamic webserver
2020-08-28 19:48:56 @tomasino oh, interesting
2020-08-28 19:48:57 @tomasino :)
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2020-08-28 19:58:20 lukee hah - found it: https://github.com/beefsack/webify
2020-08-28 19:58:41 companion_cube heh, a CGI server
2020-08-28 20:00:07 lukee yes, but I like the zero install/config part
2020-08-28 20:00:29 companion_cube reminds me of websocketd
2020-08-28 20:01:30 lukee we just need a gemini version of that for ad-hoc experimentation and hacking
2020-08-28 20:02:12 lukee just dont ask about the security implications of doing this lol
2020-08-28 20:02:58 lukee I suppose you still have to decide which app is going to receive the calls. Your call!
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2020-08-28 20:41:12 admicos woah i never realized it's been 10 days without any update to my page
2020-08-28 20:47:50 acdw admicos: saaame
2020-08-28 20:48:07 acdw I got caught up in other stuff and then saw I hadn't done anything since like, last friday?
2020-08-28 20:49:43 admicos my motd archive has a single message for an entire week
2020-08-28 20:49:52 admicos so much for it being the message of "the day"
2020-08-28 20:50:48 acdw lolol
2020-08-28 20:50:57 acdw slow news times i guess
2020-08-28 20:51:09 admicos i mean, yeah i had to move in a very short notice, but i had my computer set up and connected half an hour after i stepped my foot into the house
2020-08-28 20:51:37 acdw oh but if you were moving in, that makes sense -- you were busy!
2020-08-28 20:53:19 admicos the move only accounts for the last 3 days, but fair enough i guess, shouldn't beat myself up that much :p
2020-08-28 20:53:44 acdw :D
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2020-08-28 21:16:20 makeworld Alright I have a question about Amfora's feeds feature, which is coming along
2020-08-28 21:16:48 makeworld The feed page organizes posts by day, similar to CAPCOM
2020-08-28 21:18:02 makeworld Should the published/updated time be converted to the user's local time, then organized by date? Or should the date in the poster's time be used?
2020-08-28 21:18:49 acdw hmm that's a good question
2020-08-28 21:19:05 makeworld I'm leaning toward the former, because otherwise there can be disorienting situations where it looks like someone's posted something from the future
2020-08-28 21:19:10 acdw if you *can*, you could make it an option, but if you don't want to bother, I think you should do the easier one
2020-08-28 21:19:27 acdw That's a fair point. Tho I don't think it'll be too too jarring
2020-08-28 21:19:58 acdw I know for me, when I read CAPCOM I don't even look at the dates. I just skim until I think, "Oh I've seen that headline before"
2020-08-28 21:20:48 lukee I would use the user's local time if it is easy to do so
2020-08-28 21:21:22 lukee then something that was posted an hour ago, seems like it was posted an hour ago!
2020-08-28 21:21:39 acdw you know that's really fair too. so yeah, I'd say that one
2020-08-28 21:22:00 lukee but as acdw says, on the slow web, we don't worry too much about millisecond timing
2020-08-28 21:22:24 makeworld Yeah
2020-08-28 21:22:46 makeworld Neither option is difficult, I just have to choose
2020-08-28 21:22:57 acdw first one then
2020-08-28 21:23:02 makeworld What complicates things is that gemfeed sets all post times to UTC, so sometimes the dates are incorrect
2020-08-28 21:23:07 makeworld Yeah, sounds good
2020-08-28 21:23:23 makeworld I opened gemfeed's first issue, to hopefully fix that: https://tildegit.org/solderpunk/gemfeed/issues/1
2020-08-28 21:23:23 acdw or convert everything to UTC and compare, then for display change it to user's local
2020-08-28 21:23:51 makeworld Well that's kinda the same as converting to the user's timezone isn't it?
2020-08-28 21:23:53 lukee so does amfora now incorporate gemfeed?
2020-08-28 21:24:17 makeworld No, and gemfeed is for generating feeds anyway, not for aggregating them
2020-08-28 21:24:36 acdw hmm i should set up a gemfeed for sites as well
2020-08-28 21:24:39 makeworld I'm writing my own page display and aggregator, it works better with my existing code that way
2020-08-28 21:24:53 makeworld Yeah for sure. Automate it for breadpunk.club!
2020-08-28 21:24:55 lukee shouldnt you be able to tell from the timezone if it is UTC or Z+whatever?
2020-08-28 21:25:01 makeworld Yes
2020-08-28 21:25:16 @tomasino dates are just a tricky thing in general
2020-08-28 21:25:24 lukee I mean the timezone of each post entry in any atom feed xml
2020-08-28 21:25:52 makeworld Yeah, but gemfeed sets the timezone to UTC, even though I'm in a different one
2020-08-28 21:25:57 makeworld Which messes up dates sometimes
2020-08-28 21:26:20 acdw YUES
2020-08-28 21:26:31 makeworld Sorry what? Lol
2020-08-28 21:26:36 acdw s/YUES/YES
2020-08-28 21:26:44 acdw to your thing about breadpunk.club
2020-08-28 21:26:46 acdw :D
2020-08-28 21:26:49 makeworld Ah yeah :)
2020-08-28 21:26:50 lukee so you have to convert it back to local time - seems clear or am I missing something?
2020-08-28 21:26:58 makeworld Just make sure they're linked somewhere so people can find them
2020-08-28 21:27:04 acdw oh yeah, that :P
2020-08-28 21:27:13 makeworld lukee: Yep, that's what I've decided to do
2020-08-28 21:27:20 easeout wait, is it a problem that instants in time are expressed in UTC?
2020-08-28 21:27:30 makeworld No
2020-08-28 21:27:32 lukee so why do you need to fix gemfeed?
2020-08-28 21:27:51 @tomasino i think it's confusing makeworld because their posts appear to be aggregating to the following day in UTC terms
2020-08-28 21:27:56 @tomasino if i'm following
2020-08-28 21:28:18 easeout to be fair dates and times are always confusing
2020-08-28 21:28:30 lukee but by the time you convert back to the local time, it should be correct, no?
2020-08-28 21:28:33 @tomasino this is why i just moved to iceland so i could be on UTC
2020-08-28 21:28:47 makeworld lukee: Because while it might be August 28th in my timezone, the span of time that August 28th encompasses is different for each timezone. For example in some parts of the world it is August 29th right now (I think)
2020-08-28 21:28:58 makeworld tomasino: Lol, the programmer's reason
2020-08-28 21:28:58 companion_cube in Asia, yes
2020-08-28 21:29:00 acdw tomasino: lol
2020-08-28 21:29:06 companion_cube let's just all move to stardate
2020-08-28 21:29:15 acdw how does stardate work anyway
2020-08-28 21:29:21 acdw OMG we really should tho, b/c gemini
2020-08-28 21:29:25 makeworld No new time systems please
2020-08-28 21:29:29 makeworld Oh wait yeah lol
2020-08-28 21:29:41 admicos or unix time
2020-08-28 21:29:47 makeworld Although bespoke formats is definitely not the way of Gemini
2020-08-28 21:29:48 acdw star. date.
2020-08-28 21:29:52 makeworld +1 unix time
2020-08-28 21:29:58 companion_cube problem is it just ignores relativity :-°
2020-08-28 21:30:06 acdw I know unix time is what gemlog.blue uses
2020-08-28 21:30:09 acdw I ... think
2020-08-28 21:30:11 lukee I havent given this much thought, but what you are saying is someone literally can post from the future?
2020-08-28 21:30:14 acdw for posts' urls
2020-08-28 21:30:24 lukee (as far as clocks are concerned)
2020-08-28 21:30:26 @tomasino swatch internet time?
2020-08-28 21:30:28 @tomasino beats?
2020-08-28 21:30:48 @tomasino 937.974
2020-08-28 21:30:50 makeworld lukee: It can appear like that to me. For example on CAPCOM I sometimes see a post date that is a day ahead of my timezone
2020-08-28 21:31:00 companion_cube lukee: I'm replying to your post from the future
2020-08-28 21:31:06 companion_cube your message*
2020-08-28 21:31:17 makeworld admicos: The problem with Unix time is you need to have a database of leap seconds to add >:)
2020-08-28 21:31:38 admicos let's ignore leap seconds then, if earth slows down earth slows down
2020-08-28 21:31:43 makeworld Uh oh
2020-08-28 21:31:57 @tomasino i used a 1 unit per day decimal date/time with an epoch of jan 1, 1AD for a journal for years
2020-08-28 21:32:06 lukee I still dont get it. If you're timezone is at 1pm and I am 12pm and you make a post, my time is still 12pm when your post appears
2020-08-28 21:32:08 acdw lukee: It can *look* like it, e.g. I'm in UTC-5, so if I post now saying, "It's 4:30 pm", the server might say it posted at 9:30 pm
2020-08-28 21:32:10 acdw I think
2020-08-28 21:32:39 lukee that's a seperate problem I think
2020-08-28 21:32:55 acdw tomasino: I had a url scheme on my site for a while using "lifedays," or a counter of how many days I'd been alive when I made the post
2020-08-28 21:33:00 admicos honestly i shouldn't get into all this time discussion, i sometimes back-date my posts for a single day because i "published" them around midnight
2020-08-28 21:33:00 acdw it was pretty cool
2020-08-28 21:33:06 makeworld lukee: CAPCOM uses UTC dates. So sometimes the UTC timezone has a different date than my timezone. This is the issue I am trying to avoid with Amfora.
2020-08-28 21:33:15 makeworld *different current date
2020-08-28 21:33:36 makeworld admicos: o h n o
2020-08-28 21:33:42 @tomasino i like the 1 unit per day thing. it's easy and when looking at time you're talking in cents & millis and it's also easy. 14.4minutes or 2.4 seconds per..
2020-08-28 21:33:44 lukee I have the solution
2020-08-28 21:33:54 lukee give the user the option and they can work it out :)
2020-08-28 21:34:17 @tomasino if you do like astrobotany and use client certs to identify and save settings (local timezone) then you can adjust to show times relative to you
2020-08-28 21:34:18 makeworld Nahh :)
2020-08-28 21:34:29 makeworld It's a pretty niche option
2020-08-28 21:34:39 makeworld I will just go with the former, converting to local time first, that is
2020-08-28 21:34:45 lukee or, you could list both times
2020-08-28 21:34:53 @tomasino you could also potentially add favorites or something, filters, whatnots
2020-08-28 21:35:05 @tomasino hmm
2020-08-28 21:35:05 lukee post x published 10pm your time, it was 3pm for the author
2020-08-28 21:35:43 acdw I tihnk you should average both tiems
2020-08-28 21:35:53 @tomasino haha
2020-08-28 21:36:00 @tomasino or only display relative times
2020-08-28 21:36:03 @tomasino 36 hours ago
2020-08-28 21:36:21 makeworld acdw: Please no
2020-08-28 21:36:22 makeworld Lol
2020-08-28 21:36:25 lukee Actually that isnt a bad system, you see it frequently
2020-08-28 21:36:31 lukee 3 mins ago
2020-08-28 21:36:36 lukee 2 days ago
2020-08-28 21:36:38 lukee last week
2020-08-28 21:36:40 lukee last month
2020-08-28 21:36:43 lukee 6 months ago
2020-08-28 21:36:51 makeworld I don't want to do anything with higher resolution than the date because many feeds don't provide times, like gemfeed for example
2020-08-28 21:36:57 acdw haha :D
2020-08-28 21:36:57 @tomasino i'll use whatever you all make, but i don't see anything wrong with how it's working now
2020-08-28 21:37:06 makeworld So a post from 3 hours ago will look like it was posted exactly at midnight
2020-08-28 21:37:11 @tomasino UTC is fine. It's my time zone so i think it should be special.
2020-08-28 21:37:16 makeworld Lol
2020-08-28 21:37:17 acdw I'm in the same boat as tomasino -- whatever decision you make will be the decision
2020-08-28 21:37:21 acdw Local Jupiter Time
2020-08-28 21:37:26 makeworld Yeah, I've already decided :)
2020-08-28 21:37:27 lukee doesnt iceland have summer daytime saving?
2020-08-28 21:37:31 makeworld Just chatting now heh
2020-08-28 21:37:38 @tomasino nope, no daylight savings crap here
2020-08-28 21:37:52 @tomasino in teh summer it's always daylight anyway
2020-08-28 21:37:56 makeworld Apparently it's actually bad for you
2020-08-28 21:37:56 @tomasino in the winter it's always dark
2020-08-28 21:37:58 @tomasino no point shifting
2020-08-28 21:38:01 makeworld Lol
2020-08-28 21:38:11 makeworld We still have it in Toronto though
2020-08-28 21:38:15 @tomasino well stop that
2020-08-28 21:38:16 makeworld *Canada
2020-08-28 21:38:20 @tomasino the science is in and it's stupid
2020-08-28 21:38:23 makeworld Working on it o7
2020-08-28 21:38:33 lukee and here in UK where we like, invented time ;)
2020-08-28 21:38:39 makeworld Haha I know. Old traditions die hard or whatever
2020-08-28 21:38:40 lukee GMT and all that
2020-08-28 21:38:49 acdw gah i hate daylight savings time sooo much
2020-08-28 21:39:02 makeworld Something something colonialist
2020-08-28 21:39:07 acdw best part of living in AZ was no DST
2020-08-28 21:39:32 @tomasino GMT won out for reasons that weren't 100% ethnocentric. I mean, it's only one small blip in a long history of colonialism and downright evil, but hey... kudos
2020-08-28 21:39:53 makeworld Yeah I was just kidding
2020-08-28 21:40:06 admicos why is it "greenwich mean time" and not "greenwich nice time"
2020-08-28 21:40:19 makeworld 🤔
2020-08-28 21:40:19 acdw omg lol
2020-08-28 21:40:21 @tomasino hah
2020-08-28 21:40:24 admicos ok please don't ban me
2020-08-28 21:40:30 acdw I mean it's mostly greenwich tea time, right?
2020-08-28 21:40:43 makeworld Of course
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2020-08-28 21:41:01 lukee the best bit about greenwich is the ball on the stick at the top of the hill on the timeline
2020-08-28 21:41:13 acdw wait what
2020-08-28 21:41:13 ▬▬▶ michel has joined #gemini
2020-08-28 21:41:24 lukee the ball was raised up and exactly on the hour it dropped
2020-08-28 21:41:24 acdw that is some shit
2020-08-28 21:41:27 @tomasino i want some tea now
2020-08-28 21:41:31 @tomasino see what you've done
2020-08-28 21:41:37 acdw you're welcome
2020-08-28 21:41:41 acdw now i want tea too
2020-08-28 21:41:48 lukee all the ships down at the bottom of the hill on the Thames could synchronise their clocks
2020-08-28 21:41:54 acdw lukee: you mean like, the First Hour of Greenwich Mean Time? Or
2020-08-28 21:42:06 admicos it was something regular, wasn't it?
2020-08-28 21:42:08 admicos not a one-off thing
2020-08-28 21:42:08 acdw oh was it like a red ball
2020-08-28 21:42:24 ⚡ acdw picturing a red ball on a green hill Times Square Style
2020-08-28 21:42:45 admicos the only reason i have any say in this discussion is that i watched citation needed a million times
2020-08-28 21:43:14 lukee https://www.visitlondon.com/things-to-do/place/450876-royal-observatory-greenwich
2020-08-28 21:43:37 makeworld Hey wait that reminds me
2020-08-28 21:43:40 lukee it was done regularly as a service
2020-08-28 21:43:52 @tomasino they cover the history of the royal observatory and GMT and stuff nicely in Cosmos too
2020-08-28 21:44:03 makeworld The national radio (CBC) here still does a time synchronization beep every day at 1 PM
2020-08-28 21:44:06 makeworld A relic
2020-08-28 21:44:19 acdw Red Ball As a Service
2020-08-28 21:44:27 lukee RBaaS
2020-08-28 21:44:30 makeworld The ironic thing is that you listen over the internet it's delayed by almost exactly a minute
2020-08-28 21:44:33 admicos acdw: isn't that just NTP?
2020-08-28 21:44:33 acdw oh I want a synchronization beep
2020-08-28 21:44:40 acdw admicos: I have no idea lol
2020-08-28 21:44:48 @tomasino boops
2020-08-28 21:44:52 acdw I know NTP is a thing I Need For Linux but I don't konw what it Is
2020-08-28 21:44:56 makeworld acdw: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Research_Council_Time_Signal
2020-08-28 21:44:57 admicos https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_Time_Protocol
2020-08-28 21:45:00 acdw makeworld :O
2020-08-28 21:45:01 lukee The BBC still has its beloved pips
2020-08-28 21:45:07 @tomasino make time sync, yarr
2020-08-28 21:45:07 acdw aw yis
2020-08-28 21:45:26 makeworld "Canada's longest running radio program" 😆
2020-08-28 21:45:27 acdw since I got my x240 I've been loving the emacs system beeps, they're so pleasant
2020-08-28 21:45:58 @tomasino https://www.businessinsider.com/neil-degrasse-tyson-the-time-on-your-android-phone-is-incorrect-2012-3?r=US&IR=T
2020-08-28 21:46:04 @tomasino i think this is fixed now, though
2020-08-28 21:46:06 acdw holy crap makeworld it's for 15-30 seconds?!
2020-08-28 21:46:20 acdw of course NdGT would be all high and mighty about cellphone time
2020-08-28 21:46:23 makeworld "As of May 2011, the length of the silence has been reduced to six seconds, with a soft click at the beginning of each second during the silence. "
2020-08-28 21:46:27 makeworld I think it's shorter now
2020-08-28 21:46:39 makeworld Yo I'm totally going to call this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Research_Council_Time_Signal#NRC_Telephone_Talking_Clock
2020-08-28 21:46:58 acdw "Skip to 15 minutes, 20 seconds to hear Dr.Tyson explain it himself" -- so if I have an android I need to skip to 15 minutes, 5 seconds?
2020-08-28 21:47:11 acdw oh taht's awesome
2020-08-28 21:47:52 makeworld Ok calling now
2020-08-28 21:48:23 acdw OMG I JUST CALLED IT THAT IS AWESOME
2020-08-28 21:48:47 acdw my computer is like, 5 seconds fast
2020-08-28 21:48:53 @tomasino :D
2020-08-28 21:49:04 makeworld Hahaha might be a long distance charge for you!
2020-08-28 21:49:14 makeworld But yeah I just called, pretty cool they still run that
2020-08-28 21:49:28 makeworld acdw: I always check my clock accuracy by visiting time.si
2020-08-28 21:49:33 makeworld * time.is
2020-08-28 21:49:45 @tomasino cause obviously the correct time is in iceland
2020-08-28 21:49:45 acdw oh boy I hope I don't gget a charge for like 500 CAD on my phone bill
2020-08-28 21:49:47 @tomasino see, full circle
2020-08-28 21:49:50 acdw what is that, like $10 USD?
2020-08-28 21:49:51 acdw :P
2020-08-28 21:50:01 acdw tomasino: LOL
2020-08-28 21:50:09 makeworld You should have NTP running on your computer though. Debian and similar distros will install it by default, but if not you just need to install it and enable & start the systemd service
2020-08-28 21:50:15 acdw "Your clock is 14.6 seconds ahead." dang
2020-08-28 21:50:20 makeworld Yikess
2020-08-28 21:50:23 acdw makeworld: thanks for the info, I'll make sure
2020-08-28 21:50:29 makeworld Welcome!
2020-08-28 21:51:12 admicos "Your clock is 9.7 seconds ahead."
2020-08-28 21:51:18 admicos i don't know if i should trust this
2020-08-28 21:51:20 makeworld Also yikes
2020-08-28 21:51:28 @tomasino https://ttm.sh/QMp.png
2020-08-28 21:51:30 acdw admicos we are waay outta line
2020-08-28 21:51:32 @tomasino my time is exact
2020-08-28 21:51:42 makeworld It's always been correct for me. Like I've seen it out of date, and then ran the ntp daemon and saw it correct itself admicos
2020-08-28 21:51:49 acdw omg tomasino stop flexxing so hard
2020-08-28 21:51:55 acdw we get it you're in the Best Time
2020-08-28 21:51:58 @tomasino hehhe
2020-08-28 21:52:08 ⚡ tomasino is a time lord
2020-08-28 21:52:49 acdw lucky
2020-08-28 21:52:51 @tomasino "mary, did you know" is a terrible christmas song
2020-08-28 21:52:57 makeworld Holey, 97 users here
2020-08-28 21:53:23 acdw I kinda like "Mary did you know"
2020-08-28 21:53:42 acdw my wife HATES the little drummer boy
2020-08-28 21:53:47 @tomasino all versions?
2020-08-28 21:53:47 acdw si that that title?
2020-08-28 21:53:53 acdw the one I know
2020-08-28 21:53:54 @tomasino even the bing crosby & david bowie one?
2020-08-28 21:54:06 acdw now that one is dope af
2020-08-28 21:54:09 acdw *I* like that one
2020-08-28 21:54:16 acdw lemme ask her
2020-08-28 21:54:22 @tomasino there are some really slow boring versions of the little drummer boy
2020-08-28 21:54:24 @tomasino i'll grant that
2020-08-28 21:54:48 acdw I like Good King Winceslas
2020-08-28 21:54:59 acdw wait why are we talking about xmas songs?!
2020-08-28 21:55:11 @tomasino cause i'm listening to christmas songs
2020-08-28 21:55:23 acdw lol
2020-08-28 21:55:29 acdw Christmas in August eh?
2020-08-28 21:55:36 acdw Yeah she just hates little drummer boy
2020-08-28 21:55:46 @tomasino i hate the beatles christmas songs
2020-08-28 21:55:47 acdw Oh I like Do you see what I see as well
2020-08-28 21:55:58 admicos with how the year's going so far christmas in august doesn't seem really out of place imo
2020-08-28 21:56:05 @tomasino and feliz navidad
2020-08-28 21:56:12 acdw the problem with christmas songs is this -- it's not that they're bad songs, per se, in fact a lot are well put-together
2020-08-28 21:56:17 acdw :O Feliz Navidad is GREAT
2020-08-28 21:56:22 @tomasino feliz navidad would be okay if it was just like once or twice, but it repeats FOREVER
2020-08-28 21:56:28 @tomasino the exact same thing over and over
2020-08-28 21:56:31 lukee Urgh no talking about Christmas yet please!
2020-08-28 21:56:42 @tomasino we're not talking about christmas. just christmas music
2020-08-28 21:56:44 acdw it's just that we're INUNDATED with them for 3 MONTHS until we want to DIE and then finally, it's over
2020-08-28 21:56:59 ⚡ tomasino listens to christmas music year round
2020-08-28 21:57:05 companion_cube acdw: yeah it's so bad
2020-08-28 21:57:06 acdw your problem with FN is, I think, generally applicable to the entire genre of Christmas Music
2020-08-28 21:57:14 acdw lukee: sorry, shall we change channels to #xmas?
2020-08-28 21:57:14 @tomasino oh oh oh! i have a thing
2020-08-28 21:57:17 acdw oh boy
2020-08-28 21:57:19 lukee yes
2020-08-28 21:57:28 @tomasino https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE4shVkwqIk
2020-08-28 21:57:48 acdw oh no
2020-08-28 21:57:48 @tomasino this is so good
2020-08-28 21:57:58 acdw I don't believe you
2020-08-28 21:58:06 @tomasino you gotta try it! so so good
2020-08-28 21:58:06 @tomasino haha
2020-08-28 21:58:13 companion_cube itsatrap™
2020-08-28 21:58:42 @tomasino vocals don't come in till 00:56
2020-08-28 22:00:15 @tomasino i LOVE the part around 2:30
2020-08-28 22:00:18 lukee it shows pop music doesnt try that hard with harmony
2020-08-28 22:00:41 lukee 3 to 5 chords and you've got it covered
2020-08-28 22:01:11 acdw okay putting my headhpones on now
2020-08-28 22:01:14 @tomasino yisss
2020-08-28 22:01:15 acdw im' going to regret this
2020-08-28 22:01:20 @tomasino probably!
2020-08-28 22:01:22 @tomasino but in a good way
2020-08-28 22:01:26 lukee definitely
2020-08-28 22:01:35 lukee you will regret it
2020-08-28 22:02:26 acdw OH JAYSUS CHREEST
2020-08-28 22:02:38 acdw you know what this bops
2020-08-28 22:02:50 acdw tomasino: when's the next time you're doing tilderadio? You should just play this the whole time
2020-08-28 22:02:51 @tomasino see!?
2020-08-28 22:02:54 @tomasino haha
2020-08-28 22:02:58 @tomasino i'm doing my show sunday
2020-08-28 22:03:05 @tomasino i ALMOST did a christmas show last month
2020-08-28 22:03:05 acdw only b/c All I Want for Christmas is a fucking BOP
2020-08-28 22:03:12 acdw Christmas in July
2020-08-28 22:03:16 @tomasino exactly
2020-08-28 22:03:25 @tomasino i was soooo close to it, but then i decided against it last minute
2020-08-28 22:03:35 @tomasino only the second show and i didn't want to confuse the style so early
2020-08-28 22:03:40 acdw i mean that's the only acceptable time
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2020-08-28 22:03:58 @tomasino once you're done that you can cleanse your palette with some Rick Astley - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXaJGBLRA_o
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2020-08-28 22:04:39 acdw ruick astly is so good -- I never minded being rick rolled b/c that song is so good
2020-08-28 22:04:49 @tomasino he's pretty incredible
2020-08-28 22:04:53 @tomasino hear his titanium cover?
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2020-08-28 22:05:01 @tomasino https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_vnEHDjfZ8
2020-08-28 22:05:03 acdw YES it was rad
2020-08-28 22:05:29 acdw my favorite thing is how Astley is apparently just a Youtuber now
2020-08-28 22:05:39 acdw like, he's got your standard Youtuber setup, not a professional thing
2020-08-28 22:05:47 @tomasino heh, yeah
2020-08-28 22:05:55 @tomasino he just put out a new album
2020-08-28 22:05:58 acdw this video gives me strong chocoalte rain vibes
2020-08-28 22:05:59 @tomasino i haven't checked it out yet though
2020-08-28 22:06:12 acdw I figured -- he's been everywhere lately
2020-08-28 22:06:22 acdw oh so did Bright Eyes if you're into that kind of thing
2020-08-28 22:06:25 @tomasino here's one from the new album: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bya_tjymfuk
2020-08-28 22:06:27 acdw haven't listened to it either
2020-08-28 22:06:56 acdw you know, have you ever seen Rick Astley and Bright Eyes in the same room together? 🤔
2020-08-28 22:07:07 @tomasino haha, i have not!
2020-08-28 22:07:14 acdw curious
2020-08-28 22:07:34 @tomasino come to think of it, i've never seen Mariah Carey and Thom Yorke in the same room either
2020-08-28 22:08:00 acdw curiouser
2020-08-28 22:08:12 acdw well, we have the workings of a new conspiracy theory on our hands
2020-08-28 22:08:35 acdw this new one's not bad
2020-08-28 22:08:39 acdw the astley
2020-08-28 22:08:52 @tomasino oooh, should put this one on 1436 files!
2020-08-28 22:09:12 acdw I like how this guy has had the same look since 85
2020-08-28 22:09:19 @tomasino gopher://1436.ninja/1/1436_Files
2020-08-28 22:09:20 acdw what's 1436 files?
2020-08-28 22:09:23 acdw aw ya
2020-08-28 22:09:41 acdw omg awesome
2020-08-28 22:10:22 @tomasino gopher is a happy place
2020-08-28 22:10:53 acdw i need to get over there more
2020-08-28 22:11:20 acdw best conspiracy theory I ever came up with was how the Overton effect is caused by the writers of Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer
2020-08-28 22:11:27 acdw I left it around here somewhere ...
2020-08-28 22:11:29 @tomasino YES
2020-08-28 22:11:35 @tomasino upload that one for sure!
2020-08-28 22:11:52 acdw hehe
2020-08-28 22:11:53 @tomasino rudolph is such a messed up song
2020-08-28 22:11:57 acdw it IS
2020-08-28 22:12:06 acdw oh shit speaking of coming back around ....
2020-08-28 22:12:13 @tomasino heheh
2020-08-28 22:12:20 @tomasino all things lead to Christmas in Iceland
2020-08-28 22:12:33 @tomasino after all, it's always the right time here (for Christmas)
2020-08-28 22:13:13 acdw well here's something different: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyUMe-XPt8Y&feature=youtu.be
2020-08-28 22:13:30 @tomasino ahh, i see you went down that guy's yotuube hole
2020-08-28 22:13:34 @tomasino it's deep. There's some real gems
2020-08-28 22:13:55 acdw lol my wife did
2020-08-28 22:15:32 @tomasino i think this one is the most radio-playable: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3jkmduoVQE
2020-08-28 22:16:41 acdw tomasino: FOUND IT https://gitlab.com/acdw/acdw.net/-/blob/master/src/10148.blog
2020-08-28 22:17:45 @tomasino yes yes yes
2020-08-28 22:17:56 @tomasino now write it not as conjecture but as fact and get that bad boy onto 1436
2020-08-28 22:18:46 acdw o7
2020-08-28 22:20:09 @tomasino gonna be honest... i've written at least 2 things on here and i don't remember which
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2020-08-28 22:22:18 acdw lol ... or ~have~ you
2020-08-28 22:23:29 @tomasino hehe
2020-08-28 22:29:30 acdw tomasino: this is the absolute best one tho: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdohpTAFQqE
2020-08-28 22:30:25 @tomasino hahahaha
2020-08-28 22:30:56 @tomasino reminds me of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zy_y9yOrgxk
2020-08-28 22:32:20 acdw lol that's quality
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2020-08-29 14:26:46 paulgorman Does anyone known if the proxy.vulpes.one code is open source?
2020-08-29 14:33:55 felix I never even tried it. :D
2020-08-29 14:34:07 ▬▬▶ kline has joined #gemini
2020-08-29 14:37:07 felix And right now it doesn't seem to work for me.
2020-08-29 14:38:26 paulgorman Hah, yeah. Looks like they're having a hiccup.
2020-08-29 14:46:14 xfnw are there any open source gemini proxies?
2020-08-29 14:53:47 felix You know, that's odd. The only other one seems to be portal.mozz.us, and there's no mention of source code.
2020-08-29 14:56:24 felix The author of https://sr.ht/~alexwennerberg/flounder/ also calls it a portal, but not in the same sense.
2020-08-29 15:04:52 kevinsan I have a bash/awk proxy that you're welcome to use - it's hacky, but it seems to work for my own pages.
2020-08-29 15:05:30 kevinsan https://gitlab.com/ksangeelee/gemini see files http/htdocs/cgi-bin/proxy.sh and cgi_assets/proxy_html.awk
2020-08-29 15:07:00 kevinsan I think those two files are all you need. You will need to alter with my horrible style settings...
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2020-08-29 15:13:48 ⚡ felix waves!
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2020-08-29 15:29:26 felix Hello!
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2020-08-29 18:18:46 ▬▬▶ lukee has joined #gemini
2020-08-29 18:19:46 lukee hi all
2020-08-29 18:20:40 lukee I'm discovering the fun of gemini proxies
2020-08-29 18:21:56 Cadey i feel tempted to make the cloudflare of gemini space
2020-08-29 18:21:59 lukee as in proxies of the form: world -> gemini proxy -> gemini client
2020-08-29 18:23:14 lukee I never really understood what the point of cloudflare was, apart from getting in the way
2020-08-29 18:24:14 Cadey the biggest thing it does is DDOS protection
2020-08-29 18:25:20 lukee and it just monitors the back and forth of packets?
2020-08-29 18:32:15 admicos cloudflare is basically a glorified cache
2020-08-29 18:32:19 admicos with big pipes
2020-08-29 18:33:20 lukee so a gemini cloudflare would be a sort of "download geminispace to my cache" kind of server
2020-08-29 18:33:57 admicos yes, but occasionally you need to prompt users with a captcha instead of the page they want
2020-08-29 18:35:04 lukee but in gemini that would mean the resource is not idempotent
2020-08-29 18:35:20 enpo I guess that would be part of the anti-DDOS technology
2020-08-29 18:35:23 lukee sometimes you get the real thing, sometimes you get something else
2020-08-29 18:35:33 lukee yuk
2020-08-29 18:36:23 lukee it would break GUS?
2020-08-29 18:37:22 enpo We once used Cloudflare to get a free TLS-cert. We were using a status page service which you had to pay extra (upgrade to a higher package/plan) in order to get HTTPS on the status page
2020-08-29 18:38:31 enpo But that is kind of their thing...: You want free stuff? Use us :p
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2020-08-29 18:39:17 wallet pls dont import captchas to gemini too
2020-08-29 18:39:58 dmolliae has quit (Ping timeout: 120 seconds)
2020-08-29 18:43:02 CommunistWolf destroy all cloudflare
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2020-08-29 18:47:07 ⚡ kensanata waves
2020-08-29 18:47:10 lukee what about gemini proxies where you ask a gemini server for a resource somewhere else?
2020-08-29 18:48:33 kensanata like Wikipedia mirrors and the like?
2020-08-29 18:48:50 lukee yes
2020-08-29 18:49:01 kensanata Or Gemini-Gemini proxies...
2020-08-29 18:49:04 lukee well actually no
2020-08-29 18:49:17 lukee I mean ones that operate at the protocol layer
2020-08-29 18:49:38 lukee rather than ones that translate into their own namespace
2020-08-29 18:49:42 lukee like agena
2020-08-29 18:50:21 kensanata I don't know what that means. I wrote a gemini server that accepts requests that aren't on the same domain/port and which fetches it for you. So, a Gemini proxy?
2020-08-29 18:50:44 lukee https://tildegit.org/solderpunk/agena
2020-08-29 18:51:16 lukee ok kensanata, I think your one is the kind I have in mind
2020-08-29 18:51:35 kensanata The only documentation on that link is "Gemini-to-Gopher proxy written in Python" which isn't quite what my code does...
2020-08-29 18:51:54 lukee I know, but is it that type of proxy?
2020-08-29 18:52:27 lukee For example there is another wikipedia proxy of sorts, which presents a gemini front end to wikipedia
2020-08-29 18:52:39 lukee but it has its own urls
2020-08-29 18:52:39 lukee gemini://wp.pitr.ca/
2020-08-29 18:53:10 lukee I suppose that one on wp.pitr.ca is a mirror service, not a proxy
2020-08-29 18:56:39 kensanata Wikipedia says: "In computer networking, a proxy server is a server application or appliance that acts as an intermediary for requests from clients seeking resources from servers that provide those resources." I think this is sufficiently broad to accomodate a lot of uses. :)
2020-08-29 18:56:49 lukee yea
2020-08-29 18:56:55 lukee yea->yeah
2020-08-29 18:58:43 lukee so your server will fetch remote resources on a different scheme or server, as per section 2 of the spec?
2020-08-29 18:59:46 kensanata I don't remember section 2 of the spec. I wrote my server for a very specific use case, so I'd be surprised if it matched what the spec says.
2020-08-29 19:00:27 lukee Gemini requests are a single CRLF-terminated line with the following structure: <URL><CR><LF>
2020-08-29 19:00:35 lukee <URL> is a UTF-8 encoded absolute URL, of maximum length 1024 bytes. If the scheme of the URL is not specified, a scheme of gemini:// is implied.
2020-08-29 19:00:41 lukee Sending an absolute URL instead of only a path or selector is effectively equivalent to building in a HTTP "Host" header. It permits virtual hosting of multiple Gemini domains on the same IP address. It also allows servers to optionally act as proxies. Including schemes other than gemini:// in requests allows servers to optionally act as protocol-translating gateways to e.g. fetch gopher resources over Gemini. Proxying is optional and the vast
2020-08-29 19:00:41 lukee majority of servers are expected to only respond to requests for resources at their own domain(s).
2020-08-29 19:01:33 lukee "protocol translating gateways" I think is the specific term used.
2020-08-29 19:01:52 kensanata Yeah, so here's the difference: my server also does port "normalisation" so if all the hosts it support are running on port 1965, then my server fits the bill.
2020-08-29 19:03:18 lukee do you just serve the same bytes and content type the back end sends for each request, or do you transform the content at all?
2020-08-29 19:03:22 kensanata So I can query localhost:1965 for gemini://alexschroeder.ch and it will get gemini://alexschroeder.ch:1968 if so configured, where as the spec would say that in this case I would have to query localhost:1965 for gemini://alexschroeder.ch:1968. That's the difference I know of.
2020-08-29 19:03:31 kensanata I just print the response as is.
2020-08-29 19:03:51 kensanata If you can read Perl, I can point you at specific code, if you're interested.
2020-08-29 19:04:15 lukee its been a while, but I'd be interested, thanks
2020-08-29 19:05:37 kensanata Sure. README: https://alexschroeder.ch/cgit/gemini-dispatch/about/ line 248 is where I handle known hosts: https://alexschroeder.ch/cgit/gemini-dispatch/tree/gemini-dispatch.pl#n248 and this is the simple requesting and printing of that response: https://alexschroeder.ch/cgit/gemini-dispatch/tree/gemini-dispatch.pl#n216
2020-08-29 19:05:55 lukee BTW I dont think the spec says you would have to change the port
2020-08-29 19:06:28 kensanata Yeah, the port changing was for my specific use case.
2020-08-29 19:07:31 kensanata My problem was that I had one machine and three different kinds of Gemini servers wanting to listen on port 1965 for different domain names. So I had them listen on different ports and this proxy server was supposed to forward requests to the various ports depending on the hostname requested.
2020-08-29 19:07:51 kensanata Now I no longer use it.
2020-08-29 19:11:47 lukee thanks for that - if I understand it correctly it effectively presents a single port front end to a number of servers that have different ports?
2020-08-29 19:12:18 lukee and it is just for gemini:// scheme requests
2020-08-29 19:12:50 kensanata Yes.
2020-08-29 19:14:11 kensanata Changing that to not meddle with ports would be just a few lines to change. If that would help you in some way, I'd be happy to make that change (since I no longer use the code, we can morph it's use case to whatever we want).
2020-08-29 19:14:22 lukee I'm interested in cross-protocol proxies as well
2020-08-29 19:14:59 lukee Actually I'm secretly building the thing I'm curious about. Work in progress!
2020-08-29 19:15:04 kensanata Aah!
2020-08-29 19:15:40 kensanata Yeah. At least http and https would be easy to do, as long as you have some sort of html-to-gemini code.
2020-08-29 19:15:46 lukee :)
2020-08-29 19:16:24 kensanata If you do, I'm interested in how you handle dense hypertext such as Wikipedia! That's something I really struggled with. In the end I opted for simply dropping most links.
2020-08-29 19:17:24 kensanata https://alexschroeder.ch/wiki/2020-06-19_Wikipedia_via_Gemini
2020-08-29 19:19:47 lukee https://imgur.com/a/s1wOPFY
2020-08-29 19:20:32 lukee two elements: 1. in place citation markers
2020-08-29 19:20:48 lukee 2: wire up the citation markers with the actual links
2020-08-29 19:21:01 lukee (that is a client nicety to reduce noise)
2020-08-29 19:22:26 lukee and configure all the things - some users will like it clean, others want the detail
2020-08-29 19:26:20 kensanata I see.
2020-08-29 19:26:50 kline has quit (Ping timeout: 120 seconds)
2020-08-29 19:28:27 lukee its a general solution to in place hypertext rendering
2020-08-29 19:28:42 makeworld lukee: Are you talking about local proxies, like for full-text search, or caching?
2020-08-29 19:28:57 makeworld Like was discussed on the ML a little while ago
2020-08-29 19:29:16 lukee not exactly
2020-08-29 19:29:44 lukee but I am using the proxy -p flag in gemget to test it!
2020-08-29 19:30:12 lukee the idea is of a cross-protocol gemini proxy
2020-08-29 19:30:18 lukee like Agena
2020-08-29 19:30:27 lukee which is gopher->gemini
2020-08-29 19:39:36 makeworld Ah okay
2020-08-29 19:39:50 makeworld Glad that gemget flag can be useful in that case though! Let me know if you find any issues.
2020-08-29 19:40:05 lukee makeworld: BTW I'm getting problems compiling gemget
2020-08-29 19:40:11 makeworld Oh yeah?
2020-08-29 19:40:23 lukee let me try again...
2020-08-29 19:40:34 ⚡ lukee scuttles off
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2020-08-29 19:42:10 lukee PS C:\Users\lukee\Desktop\programming\projects\go> go get github.com\makeworld-the-better-one\gemget
2020-08-29 19:42:10 lukee # github.com/makeworld-the-better-one/gemget
2020-08-29 19:42:10 lukee src\github.com\makeworld-the-better-one\gemget\network.go:127:21: client.FetchWithHost undefined (type *gemini.Client has no field or method FetchWithHost)
2020-08-29 19:42:10 lukee PS C:\Users\lukee\Desktop\programming\projects\go>
2020-08-29 19:42:38 makeworld Sounds like you haven't updated your deps
2020-08-29 19:42:44 lukee (PS is windows powershell prompt)
2020-08-29 19:43:02 lukee what do I need to do?
2020-08-29 19:43:09 makeworld How did you install the project, with git clone or go get?
2020-08-29 19:43:14 lukee the latter
2020-08-29 19:43:18 makeworld Oh nevermind, I see
2020-08-29 19:43:19 makeworld Yeah
2020-08-29 19:43:37 makeworld K one sec
2020-08-29 19:45:28 makeworld Try adding @v1.5.0 to the end
2020-08-29 19:45:32 makeworld Of the go get command
2020-08-29 19:46:11 lukee go: cannot use path@version syntax in GOPATH mode
2020-08-29 19:46:32 makeworld Hmmph
2020-08-29 19:47:09 easeout can you find out which version of gemget you did get?
2020-08-29 19:47:19 makeworld Oh it's cause you don't have GO111MODULE=on lukee
2020-08-29 19:47:30 makeworld easeout: gemget --version
2020-08-29 19:47:58 lukee the source says var version = "1.5.0"
2020-08-29 19:48:29 lukee sorry I'm still learning the ropes with Go
2020-08-29 19:48:32 makeworld All good
2020-08-29 19:48:56 makeworld But in general it's good to have that set to on, but also in the install command on the README it will usually tell you if you need that set
2020-08-29 19:48:57 lukee what do I need to do?
2020-08-29 19:49:12 makeworld I'm not sure exactly how setting variables in powershell works
2020-08-29 19:49:22 makeworld Try running GO111MODULE=on go get github.com/makeworld-the-better-one/gemget
2020-08-29 19:49:42 makeworld And then if that doesn't work you can try adding the @v1.5.0 thing to the end
2020-08-29 19:49:54 lukee no I think the syntax is unix only
2020-08-29 19:50:27 lukee I tried adding the suffix but it didnt like it (see above)
2020-08-29 19:50:49 makeworld Yes but you need to set the env var, that's why the suffix didn't work
2020-08-29 19:50:57 makeworld It's not a windows issue
2020-08-29 19:51:08 kensanata Does anyone have a copy of Vulpes source code?
2020-08-29 19:51:12 Cadey do you want me to make a binary for you?
2020-08-29 19:51:23 makeworld https://stackoverflow.com/a/56249926/7361270
2020-08-29 19:51:52 Cadey lukee: alternatively: go env -w GO111MODULE=on
2020-08-29 19:52:55 lukee Thanks Cadey and makeworld - it worked!
2020-08-29 19:53:04 Cadey that will set the environment variable correctly
2020-08-29 19:53:07 makeworld Thanks Cadey
2020-08-29 19:53:10 makeworld Glad it worked!
2020-08-29 19:53:36 lukee makeworld - can you put that in the gemget readme?
2020-08-29 19:53:46 makeworld https://github.com/makeworld-the-better-one/gemget#installation
2020-08-29 19:53:48 makeworld It is :)
2020-08-29 19:53:55 makeworld Just aimed at Unix users
2020-08-29 19:54:18 makeworld You want me to add the Windows version?
2020-08-29 19:54:24 lukee yes but the incantation from Cadey is cross platform!
2020-08-29 19:54:41 makeworld Ha yeah okay
2020-08-29 19:54:44 lukee as I understand it
2020-08-29 19:55:10 makeworld Yeah
2020-08-29 19:55:17 makeworld You ran that as two separate commands right?
2020-08-29 19:55:23 lukee yes
2020-08-29 19:55:25 makeworld Like the go env one first, then the go get?
2020-08-29 19:55:26 makeworld Yeah ok
2020-08-29 19:56:15 makeworld I'll add that to Amfora
2020-08-29 19:56:19 makeworld too
2020-08-29 19:56:53 lukee Re: amfora. I saw the sorry response about the TUI library!
2020-08-29 19:57:49 makeworld You mean about the windows pasting?
2020-08-29 19:57:53 lukee yes
2020-08-29 19:58:58 lukee it just seems such a strange bug to have not been fixed yet
2020-08-29 19:59:13 lukee (by the TUI library that is!)
2020-08-29 20:00:02 @tomasino Cadey: how's the wpm
2020-08-29 20:01:00 makeworld The possible workaround looks annoying, so it's stayed unimplemented I'm afraid
2020-08-29 20:01:19 lukee yes its a bit of a nasty hacl
2020-08-29 20:01:24 lukee hacl->hack
2020-08-29 20:02:10 lukee I'm mainly using amfora when on a remote terminal, but it means its pretty awkward to provide you feedback on amfora on Windows
2020-08-29 20:02:46 makeworld Ha well that's okay
2020-08-29 20:03:15 lukee maybe just document it as a known problem
2020-08-29 20:04:50 makeworld Like on the readme?
2020-08-29 20:05:03 lukee yes
2020-08-29 20:05:17 lukee sorry I seem to be giving you readme edits today
2020-08-29 20:05:32 @tomasino I added a readme to my GitHub profile finally!
2020-08-29 20:06:03 @tomasino https://github.com/jamestomasino
2020-08-29 20:07:03 lukee do you take pull requests?
2020-08-29 20:07:47 makeworld lukee: Yep! I can also make the edit if that's what you're talking about
2020-08-29 20:08:02 Cadey tomasino: 10-20, still in purgatory
2020-08-29 20:08:14 @tomasino That's a rough place
2020-08-29 20:08:17 @tomasino You can do it!!!
2020-08-29 20:08:19 makeworld tomasino: I love it, nice idea
2020-08-29 20:08:21 lukee makeworld: great!
2020-08-29 20:08:35 @tomasino Thanks, makeworld
2020-08-29 20:08:44 makeworld Are you going to make one to document that bug, or are you talking about something else? lukee
2020-08-29 20:09:18 makeworld tomasino: What's the 216, 72 names of god thing?
2020-08-29 20:09:44 lukee tomasino: do you take pull requests ;)
2020-08-29 20:09:58 @tomasino https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gevurah
2020-08-29 20:10:06 @tomasino Sure, lukee!
2020-08-29 20:10:46 lukee it would be a nice way to upgrade oneself to merge a pull request on ones own readme
2020-08-29 20:10:50 @tomasino 216 info in that wiki link
2020-08-29 20:11:38 makeworld Are you going to make one to document that bug, or are you talking about something else? lukee
2020-08-29 20:11:54 Cadey tomasino: one keystroke at a time :)
2020-08-29 20:11:57 lukee makeworld: crossed wires I think here.
2020-08-29 20:12:08 @tomasino Tappity taps
2020-08-29 20:12:26 makeworld Oh shoot I see
2020-08-29 20:12:33 makeworld Ok I will edit the readme lol
2020-08-29 20:12:46 lukee makeworld: yes if you would consider a new "Known problems" section of the readme, it could help future users
2020-08-29 20:12:55 makeworld Yep, will add
2020-08-29 20:13:21 @tomasino If you wanna PR my profile: https://github.com/jamestomasino/jamestomasino
2020-08-29 20:13:40 @tomasino The Makefile will generate the readme
2020-08-29 20:14:49 lukee I love the readme BTW, but the exit status is logically wrong perhaps?
2020-08-29 20:15:14 lukee for example 42 seems to be a success code, but you say errors are returns > 0
2020-08-29 20:15:35 @tomasino I contain multitudes! Much of it is insightful and incorrect
2020-08-29 20:16:08 lukee I spend too much of my life reviewing things. I'm not nit picking!
2020-08-29 20:16:12 @tomasino Heehee
2020-08-29 20:16:17 @tomasino It's all fun
2020-08-29 20:16:45 @tomasino I may add a pull request for a -y switch and leave it unmerged
2020-08-29 20:17:19 @tomasino Title will be "and sometimes Y"
2020-08-29 20:17:42 makeworld https://github.com/makeworld-the-better-one/amfora#known-bugs
2020-08-29 20:18:03 lukee is james_tomasino a text based app?
2020-08-29 20:18:40 lukee makeworld: thanks!
2020-08-29 20:19:10 ▬▬▶ acdw has joined #gemini
2020-08-29 20:20:06 kensanata tomasino: I love that format! :D
2020-08-29 20:20:28 @tomasino Thanks!
2020-08-29 20:20:44 acdw has quit (The TLS connection was non-properly terminated.)
2020-08-29 20:20:56 @tomasino I had it as jamestomasino for a bit, but I added the underscore later for readability
2020-08-29 20:21:01 @tomasino I may change it back
2020-08-29 20:21:06 easeout ha. manpage format is classy
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2020-08-29 20:21:52 @tomasino roff ftw
2020-08-29 20:21:59 xfnw groff++
2020-08-29 20:22:07 lukee There need to be some notes on Compilation
2020-08-29 20:22:08 kensanata Mine is lame in comparison. https://github.com/kensanata/
2020-08-29 20:23:32 kensanata tomasino: Is "If your professional needs touch digital marketing" correct? Sometimes I'm not too sure about my English.
2020-08-29 20:23:57 @tomasino It works colloquially
2020-08-29 20:24:13 kensanata Interesting.
2020-08-29 20:25:16 @tomasino I wouldn't use it on a real resume, for sure
2020-08-29 20:25:23 kensanata My first reading was: "If you have a professional, and he needs Touch Digital Marketing, ..." and I wondered: what the hell is "touch digital marketing" – something from the Urban Dictionary‽
2020-08-29 20:25:33 kensanata LOL
2020-08-29 20:26:10 @tomasino "Professional needs" being the subject
2020-08-29 20:26:11 Cadey https://github.com/Xe
2020-08-29 20:26:19 acdw has quit (The TLS connection was non-properly terminated.)
2020-08-29 20:26:20 Cadey this is me
2020-08-29 20:26:50 @tomasino That's a nice one
2020-08-29 20:26:57 @tomasino Gets the relevant info across well
2020-08-29 20:27:19 @tomasino And your websites have so much to say already it's good to direct folks there
2020-08-29 20:28:34 Cadey i should really link my itch.io and patreon there
2020-08-29 20:28:57 @tomasino $$
2020-08-29 20:33:32 ▬▬▶ acdw has joined #gemini
2020-08-29 20:33:39 acdw has quit (The TLS connection was non-properly terminated.)
2020-08-29 20:34:09 kensanata Is "Be well, Creator." a reference to something?
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2020-08-29 20:37:43 acdw has quit (The TLS connection was non-properly terminated.)
2020-08-29 20:40:21 Cadey kensanata: it's a reference to a sudden moment of clarity i had during my shamanism bender
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2020-08-29 21:56:47 lukee makeworld: how to I set amfora to use a proxy?
2020-08-29 22:30:58 swinslow has quit (quit: Leaving)
2020-08-29 22:35:46 makeworld lukee: Still around?
2020-08-29 22:36:25 lukee hi
2020-08-29 22:36:25 makeworld Make sure you've built from master, as this isn't in v1.4.0. And then set proxy = "example.com:1234" in the config.toml, under the a-general section
2020-08-29 22:37:05 makeworld https://github.com/makeworld-the-better-one/amfora/blob/164ed98/default-config.toml#L55-L59
2020-08-29 22:37:05 lukee yes thanks. I got as far as adding an entry into config.toml, but I cant get it working with my proxy
2020-08-29 22:37:14 makeworld What happens?
2020-08-29 22:37:16 lukee but I can get gemget to work with the proxy
2020-08-29 22:37:34 makeworld Oh like you're trying to proxy http requests?
2020-08-29 22:37:35 lukee its a proxy for http urls
2020-08-29 22:37:39 makeworld Yeah ok
2020-08-29 22:37:46 lukee it tries to launch the browser
2020-08-29 22:37:49 makeworld The Amfora proxy isn't really designed for that
2020-08-29 22:37:56 makeworld It's for a gemini only proxy
2020-08-29 22:38:03 makeworld Like how Firefox has an HTTP proxy
2020-08-29 22:38:10 lukee no, the proxy is a gemini proxy
2020-08-29 22:38:18 lukee for http end points
2020-08-29 22:38:30 makeworld I know but the Amfora proxy is for a gemini <-> gemini proxy
2020-08-29 22:38:43 makeworld Like how the Firefox proxy setting is for an http <-> proxy
2020-08-29 22:38:54 makeworld * http <-> http
2020-08-29 22:38:57 lukee maybe I'm not being clear
2020-08-29 22:39:08 lukee the proxy is a gemini proxy on 1965
2020-08-29 22:39:13 lukee it speaks gemini
2020-08-29 22:39:26 lukee but it can accept requests for http urls
2020-08-29 22:39:39 makeworld Yes, which is not what the Amfora proxy setting is for
2020-08-29 22:39:47 lukee and why not :)
2020-08-29 22:40:02 lukee gemget is fine with it
2020-08-29 22:40:11 makeworld The Amfora proxy setting is for sending gemini requests for gus.guru through your-server.com instead
2020-08-29 22:41:42 lukee what I want is that all requests go to some proxy rather than directly to the server
2020-08-29 22:42:04 lukee which is what the gemget one does
2020-08-29 22:42:46 makeworld Yeah, but any non-gemini URLs are kinda by definition external to Amfora
2020-08-29 22:43:44 lukee but if it is talking to a gemini server, they are in fact gemini
2020-08-29 22:44:36 makeworld I know, but like should there be a setting to make a list for each scheme? Like should gopher links go through a different proxy?
2020-08-29 22:44:55 makeworld Like maybe there should be an optional mapping of scheme to proxy?
2020-08-29 22:45:06 lukee yes - they can go via Agena which does this
2020-08-29 22:45:25 lukee For example the client diohsc has per-scheme proxy options: gemini://gemini.thegonz.net/diohsc/README.md
2020-08-29 22:46:06 lukee so you can have gemini urls go directly to the source server, gopher urls go to agena, http urls...
2020-08-29 22:47:45 makeworld Hmm okay
2020-08-29 22:49:32 makeworld I don't see the mention of proxy options on that page you linked
2020-08-29 22:49:45 makeworld Nvm
2020-08-29 22:50:09 makeworld Okay I'll make an issue for this, but it probably won't be in v1.5.0
2020-08-29 22:50:34 lukee AV-98 (solderpunk's client) uses Agena so it can browse gopher urls
2020-08-29 22:50:50 makeworld Yeah
2020-08-29 22:51:06 lukee the diohsc page mentions: "Facilities to invoke external commands and use per-scheme proxies."
2020-08-29 22:51:15 makeworld Yeah I found that
2020-08-29 22:52:56 kensanata has quit (Ping timeout: 120 seconds)
2020-08-29 22:52:56 lukee Martin Bays, the author of diohsc confirmed it - he uses a simple proxy by wrapping curl: https://repo.or.cz/diohsc.git/tree/HEAD:/other/curlproxy
2020-08-29 22:54:07 makeworld I was thinking these proxies would be gemini proxy servers, not commands
2020-08-29 22:54:35 lukee I'm just trying to compile diohsc on my machine. But its taking ages to install Haskell :(
2020-08-29 22:55:40 makeworld https://github.com/makeworld-the-better-one/amfora/issues/80
2020-08-29 22:55:46 makeworld K I gtg now, see you
2020-08-29 22:55:56 lukee ok thanks
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2020-08-30 03:46:02 epoch speaking of gemini proxies...
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2020-08-30 03:49:10 ℹ Mode #gemini [+qo tiwesdaeg tiwesdaeg] by ChanServ
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2020-08-30 13:31:21 felix So, I started writing an overview of the small web / small internet.
2020-08-30 13:31:32 felix It mentions Gemini among other things.
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2020-08-30 13:36:57 lukee hi felix
2020-08-30 13:37:07 felix Hello!
2020-08-30 13:37:52 lukee you're writing a post in geminispace or for the wider web audience?
2020-08-30 13:40:34 felix The latter. Sorry about that.
2020-08-30 13:40:45 lukee no need to apologies, just curious
2020-08-30 13:40:54 felix I'm still very much a web person.
2020-08-30 13:41:06 felix Anyway, how are you?
2020-08-30 13:41:08 lukee here on the inside we know all about the small internet I suppose
2020-08-30 13:41:16 felix :)
2020-08-30 13:41:41 lukee not bad thanks - been making some more progress with my small web gemini proxy
2020-08-30 13:41:58 felix On Gemini I've only written some brief thoughts so far.
2020-08-30 13:42:02 felix And that sounds great!
2020-08-30 13:43:02 lukee I managed to get it plugged into at least one other client - diohsc
2020-08-30 13:43:44 lukee it is a scheme-specific proxy, so you tell your client to send all urls having that scheme to the proxy
2020-08-30 13:43:51 lukee and it just talks gemini to you
2020-08-30 13:44:03 lukee the client is none the wiser
2020-08-30 13:44:14 felix Interesting!
2020-08-30 13:45:27 lukee there is one other scheme-specific proxy already that Solderpunk wrote - Agena, which talks to gopherspace
2020-08-30 13:46:46 felix I see!
2020-08-30 13:47:17 lukee the hardest thing is, of course, is coming up with a name for it!
2020-08-30 13:47:37 felix Always!
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2020-08-30 13:48:55 lukee Small WebD(aemon) -> Small WebD -> smallwebbed -> Duckling
2020-08-30 13:49:17 lukee is one line of thought, I have others, equally ridiculous
2020-08-30 13:49:32 felix :D
2020-08-30 13:51:51 lukee What is the perspective of your summary of the small web/internet?
2020-08-30 13:53:32 felix Wanna see?
2020-08-30 13:53:42 lukee yes!
2020-08-30 13:54:22 felix https://felix.plesoianu.ro/web/in-the-small.html
2020-08-30 13:58:40 lukee nice
2020-08-30 13:58:46 felix Thanks!
2020-08-30 13:58:50 lukee who is Tantek Çelik on the IndieWeb?
2020-08-30 14:00:39 felix It's the inventor of microformats.
2020-08-30 14:01:07 felix I'm referring to this page: https://indieweb.org/small_web
2020-08-30 14:01:57 lukee Well I suppose the term Small Web can mean lots of things
2020-08-30 14:02:18 felix If you search for it on DDG you'll find the darnedest things.
2020-08-30 14:03:12 lukee BTW - here is your article viewed as gemini
2020-08-30 14:03:14 lukee https://imgur.com/a/i1zhaZC
2020-08-30 14:06:48 felix <3
2020-08-30 14:06:59 lukee For me, if a web page can be viewed as Gemini, it is accessible, simple and content focussed. That is the Small Web
2020-08-30 14:08:33 felix My yardstick used to be Lynx. Guess you can go even more low-tech.
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2020-08-30 14:15:47 felix Love that stylesheet.
2020-08-30 14:18:48 lukee That is the "Fabric" theme, which does site-specific theming for every site. So each site has a different background and icon placemarker
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2020-08-30 14:19:24 lukee it helps finding your way around in Geminispace, which otherwise has not much visual cues where you are
2020-08-30 14:19:34 felix Oh, good idea!
2020-08-30 14:20:24 lrb lukee:are you the same Luke that writes Geminaut? :)
2020-08-30 14:20:46 lukee yes
2020-08-30 14:22:21 lukee have you tried it?
2020-08-30 14:24:26 felix I'm on Linux, and after the last reinstall I left out Wine.
2020-08-30 14:24:49 felix I've seen other screenshots though, it looks really good.
2020-08-30 14:25:07 lukee thanks. Maybe one day it can be cross platform. Just not now
2020-08-30 14:25:14 felix Fair enough.
2020-08-30 14:41:28 lrb lukee:I have! I use it on my Win machine at work, love it. Thank you for your work :)
2020-08-30 14:43:31 lukee lrb: you're welcome. Feel free to send me bug reports or improvement suggestions!
2020-08-30 14:44:23 felix There is a thing I'd like to see in small-internet browsers.
2020-08-30 14:45:02 felix Especially those that also support minimal web pages. >.>
2020-08-30 14:45:59 felix Newsfeed rendering. Treating them like any other file format.
2020-08-30 14:46:11 lukee you mean RSS/Atom?
2020-08-30 14:46:19 felix Yep!
2020-08-30 14:47:17 lrb felix: +1 !
2020-08-30 14:47:22 lukee seems possible to me.
2020-08-30 14:47:37 lrb would make it nice and easy to follow gemlogs
2020-08-30 14:48:11 felix Indeed, especially while feed readers don't talk Gemini yet.
2020-08-30 14:48:22 felix So we have to rely on a couple of aggregators.
2020-08-30 14:48:35 lukee are you talking about looking at an individual feed, or that the client should be some kind of aggregator?
2020-08-30 14:48:41 felix The former.
2020-08-30 14:49:05 felix I'm one of those crazy people who keeps manually edited newsfeeds.
2020-08-30 14:49:18 lukee how is that different to just visiting the index page for someones gemlog?
2020-08-30 14:49:46 felix On Gemini I suppose it's not.
2020-08-30 14:50:12 felix But people think RSS is dead, and part of it is newsfeeds always being hidden.
2020-08-30 14:50:21 felix A second-class citizen on the web.
2020-08-30 14:51:07 felix And my manual newsfeeds aren't reflected on the site.
2020-08-30 14:51:17 felix My blogs have their own.
2020-08-30 14:59:39 lukee on gemini however most of the atom feeds are sent with a generic content-type header text/xml
2020-08-30 15:00:16 lukee so its hard for clients to know which are feeds and which are just some other XML without loading each one and checking the content
2020-08-30 15:03:01 felix Of course. I'm not talking autodetection.
2020-08-30 15:03:30 lukee so when does the client know when to interpret the content as a feed?
2020-08-30 15:04:23 lukee if they are served correctly as application/atom+xml the client can know
2020-08-30 15:04:50 felix Right, I ran into this issue with Markdown files already.
2020-08-30 15:04:57 lukee but most are not using this.
2020-08-30 15:05:14 felix Figured it might just be easier to peek at the root element of an XML file.
2020-08-30 15:05:25 lukee anyway, that is a problem that could be fixed, we just tell people to serve the correct content type!
2020-08-30 15:05:46 felix That could be hard for servers too, how are they to know? ;)
2020-08-30 15:06:29 lukee maybe instead of creating the file as atom.xml, they use something like feed.atom as the file name, then set the server to serve .atom as application/atom+xml
2020-08-30 15:06:37 felix Hmm!
2020-08-30 15:06:45 lukee that should work
2020-08-30 15:07:57 lukee or the server could have a special rule that xml is served as text/xml, unless a more specific rule that atom.xml is served as a feed
2020-08-30 15:08:10 lukee a bit clunky perhaps
2020-08-30 15:09:07 felix This problem hasn't been really solved on the web, either.
2020-08-30 15:09:22 felix Browsers rely on link elements setting a suitable type.
2020-08-30 15:09:58 lukee if you serve a web page as text/plain, the browser *ought* not to interpret it as html
2020-08-30 15:10:09 lukee so the correct content type is key
2020-08-30 15:10:41 lukee Anyway we do have content-type as part of the response in gemini, at least.
2020-08-30 15:12:12 felix Right!
2020-08-30 15:12:33 felix Well, it was just an idea.
2020-08-30 15:19:07 felix It's just... a while ago a suggested that browsers should just render Markdown by now.
2020-08-30 15:19:21 felix People yelled at me. "It's too vague and inconsistent!"
2020-08-30 15:19:46 felix I was all >.> like in that meme. Because HTML isn't? But whatevs.
2020-08-30 15:20:12 felix Then I saw that Kristall does render Markdown.
2020-08-30 15:20:31 felix Because it can. Because it's not too busy doing Javascript and video.
2020-08-30 15:20:42 companion_cube markdown is kind of standardized these days?
2020-08-30 15:20:58 felix There's CommonMark.
2020-08-30 15:21:36 felix But really, parsers seem to agree well enough on what the format is.
2020-08-30 15:21:51 felix And what the output should look like.
2020-08-30 15:37:21 lukee I thought one of the problems is that Markdown contains the whole of html
2020-08-30 15:37:33 lukee since you can just embed it anywhere
2020-08-30 15:38:32 felix Well, yeah, I'm thinking the kind of parser that doesn't let HTML through.
2020-08-30 15:38:42 felix Like those used in comment forms and the like.
2020-08-30 15:40:02 felix But then they might as well adopt gemtext. :P
2020-08-30 15:41:11 lukee gemtext all the things
2020-08-30 15:41:46 lukee they wouldnt need to have a pop up form with an instruction on how all the various markdown comments work
2020-08-30 15:41:54 lukee they could just remember it is so simple
2020-08-30 15:42:39 felix They could fit the instructions in a business card-sized box. :P
2020-08-30 15:43:52 lukee people would complain, IT consultants would go out of business
2020-08-30 15:44:22 felix Mwahaha.
2020-08-30 15:45:25 felix Just let me finish my viewer, and make one in HTML5 as well.
2020-08-30 15:47:50 rjt_znc (als oagree that it seems weird browsers don't just render markdown at this point)
2020-08-30 15:49:35 felix I'm not sure what mainstream browsers think they're doing these days.
2020-08-30 15:50:06 felix But seeing how many useful features *Lynx* still supports in 2MB...
2020-08-30 15:50:13 lukee they are preserving the power structures of the techno-elite
2020-08-30 15:50:22 ⚡ lukee punches into the air
2020-08-30 15:50:27 rjt_znc Seem to want to be everything but be browsers
2020-08-30 15:50:30 felix That much bigger browsers long removed as a maintenance burden.
2020-08-30 15:50:41 felix Heh! Well said!
2020-08-30 15:51:20 lukee the web is now 2 modes. Web-As-Application alongside the Small Web
2020-08-30 15:51:48 lukee or, small(er) web
2020-08-30 15:52:18 rjt_znc Yeah
2020-08-30 15:52:56 lukee well, not even Web-As-Application, more like WebOS
2020-08-30 15:53:23 lukee the complexity of modern web standards is astounding
2020-08-30 15:53:58 felix I saw the figures.
2020-08-30 15:55:24 felix No wonder C++ compilers are doing better as a market.
2020-08-30 15:56:23 felix And operating systems, for that matter. They're simpler than browsers.
2020-08-30 15:56:56 lukee but still, hypertext is the killer application
2020-08-30 15:57:36 lukee and the necessary infrastructure for hypertext is as we know much more modest
2020-08-30 15:58:00 felix Yep... ad-hoc help systems used to do it.
2020-08-30 15:58:01 lukee even gopher, bless it, has hypertext
2020-08-30 15:58:15 felix :)
2020-08-30 15:58:17 lukee just no one wants to write gophermaps
2020-08-30 15:58:35 lukee and why not learn a couple of lessons from markdown
2020-08-30 15:59:00 felix There's always the option of serving files over Gopher, with a README on the side.
2020-08-30 15:59:46 lukee I think a few writers in gopherspace are using markdown a bit. But I dont think any clients render it
2020-08-30 15:59:58 lukee its just a way of signalling document structure
2020-08-30 16:00:25 lukee eventually they will come to gemini ;)
2020-08-30 16:01:30 felix I've put some markdown documents on my first capsule.
2020-08-30 16:01:45 felix One became gemtext easily enough, the others not so much.
2020-08-30 16:02:42 felix Could have left them with a .txt extension, but though, what the hell.
2020-08-30 16:03:34 lukee what is the one thing you miss from markdown when you write gemtext?
2020-08-30 16:05:38 felix Horizontal rules. Most people disagree, I asked here recently.
2020-08-30 16:07:24 felix Otherwise, I'm too used to putting in a *lot* of `code` and so on.
2020-08-30 16:08:44 felix The medium shapes the message.
2020-08-30 16:10:59 lukee huh that surprises me
2020-08-30 16:20:28 lukee If I need a horizontal line I just use a row of underscores
2020-08-30 16:20:32 lukee _____________________________________
2020-08-30 16:21:11 lukee or you could use a row of some other character
2020-08-30 16:21:36 felix Right. We talked about that. Whatever works for you.
2020-08-30 16:22:00 felix I just learned to alternate line types nicely.
2020-08-30 16:22:30 lukee I think the inline code is nice. Maybe we can develop a convention for that
2020-08-30 16:22:40 lukee there is a whole range of possible delimiters
2020-08-30 16:22:41 lukee https://www.compart.com/en/unicode/category/Ps
2020-08-30 16:23:13 felix More generally we can probably make up some useful conventions.
2020-08-30 16:23:31 felix To provide metadata and the like without extending the format.
2020-08-30 16:23:59 lukee so one possibility is to use them like this ⌊some code⌉
2020-08-30 16:24:39 felix Hmm!
2020-08-30 16:24:40 lukee I think the main thing is to use some delimiter
2020-08-30 16:25:22 lukee here is a nice list http://xahlee.info/comp/unicode_matching_brackets.html
2020-08-30 16:25:32 felix I see!
2020-08-30 16:26:41 lukee the french seem to like to use these to quote speech. «bonjour», dit Francois
2020-08-30 16:26:50 felix Right!
2020-08-30 16:27:21 felix Along with non-breaking spaces on the inside.
2020-08-30 16:27:47 lukee why not if you need multiple spaces. Usually you dont though in my experience
2020-08-30 16:28:31 felix In most languages, no.
2020-08-30 16:29:12 felix But in French you're supposed to write quotes and such that way.
2020-08-30 16:29:51 lukee I think maybe that is old fashioned now, but I have seen French books like that (I'm not a native French speaker)
2020-08-30 16:32:14 felix Indeed, it's just that the government and big publications are sticklers for the Good Old Language.
2020-08-30 16:32:39 felix Otherwise it's only natural to stick with the medium's affordances.
2020-08-30 16:33:16 felix Reminds me of the time when a friend berated me for not italicizing a ship name.
2020-08-30 16:33:40 felix That was in a text adventure made in Inform 6, which doesn't make it easy.
2020-08-30 16:33:49 felix Especially in room names.
2020-08-30 16:34:20 lukee With unicode we have so many more possibilities
2020-08-30 16:34:43 felix Arguably, yes, but we can also just stop demanding all those italics.
2020-08-30 16:34:59 felix For ship names, for book titles, for Latin expressions...
2020-08-30 16:35:10 felix English has a ridiculous amount of them.
2020-08-30 16:35:28 lukee I guess I can see the point sometimes
2020-08-30 16:35:48 lukee if you run a latin expression into your English, it is a bit weird
2020-08-30 16:36:31 felix Guess you have a different perspective as a native speaker.
2020-08-30 16:36:33 lukee and for names, it avoids needing a quoting delimiter
2020-08-30 16:37:11 lukee for example if I say "I really like The Plague" it is different if "The Plague" is in italics
2020-08-30 16:37:22 lukee (the book by Camus)
2020-08-30 16:37:30 lukee somewhat prescient at the moment
2020-08-30 16:37:46 felix Heh. True. Though caps give a good hint, and are much easier to add.
2020-08-30 16:38:42 lukee Still, even so it can be ambiguous
2020-08-30 16:39:04 felix Arguably. But dealing with ambiguity is more of a cultural issue.
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2020-08-30 16:39:18 ⚡ felix waves!
2020-08-30 16:39:22 lukee hmm
2020-08-30 16:39:59 lukee Well, a lot of our typographical conventions are inherited from the print form
2020-08-30 16:40:32 felix Indeed, not least because the web was created by and for academics.
2020-08-30 16:41:22 lukee I think desktop publishing predates the web
2020-08-30 16:41:44 lukee and publishing more generally is hundreds of years old as a cultural practice
2020-08-30 16:41:58 lukee so it is deeply embedded in our culture
2020-08-30 16:42:53 felix And habits change hard, yes.
2020-08-30 16:43:31 lukee yes as does culture
2020-08-30 16:44:00 lukee I meant to say "yes, and culture changes slowly"
2020-08-30 16:44:32 ⚡ felix nods
2020-08-30 16:44:51 lukee but look how text speak has infiltrated modern informal writing :)
2020-08-30 16:44:56 lukee lol
2020-08-30 16:45:02 felix Good!
2020-08-30 16:45:42 lukee I meant text speak as in what people write with their thumbs into their text messages on their phone
2020-08-30 16:46:02 felix Right!
2020-08-30 16:46:08 lukee sentences, who needs those?
2020-08-30 16:47:01 lukee why write a meaningful response to your recipent when you can just go 👍
2020-08-30 16:47:16 felix It seems meaningful enough to me.
2020-08-30 16:47:38 lukee so the affordances of the phone has made it all very simplistic
2020-08-30 16:47:44 felix Like a nod.
2020-08-30 16:47:47 lukee I'm old fashioned, but I think too simplistic
2020-08-30 16:47:48 felix Maybe?
2020-08-30 16:48:00 felix Maybe we needed to chill already.
2020-08-30 16:48:36 felix Texting showed us that we don't need so much formality.
2020-08-30 16:49:21 lukee If your partner writes you a poem to tell you they love you, is it an appropriate response to reply 💗
2020-08-30 16:49:58 felix Dunno, it depends on your partner and how it's going between you.
2020-08-30 16:50:55 lukee I guess my point is that my impression is that text messaging has reduced communication when language is rich, yet underused
2020-08-30 16:51:36 lukee and this is now part of modern communication practice - the affordance of the phone and our thumb
2020-08-30 16:56:27 felix Well, if you'd rather be all literary and stuff, by all means.
2020-08-30 16:56:43 felix I tend to anyway, due to learning English from books.
2020-08-30 16:57:25 felix And many people still appreciate literary expression, for good reasons.
2020-08-30 16:58:01 lukee Well, I admire people who learn other languages. My foreign language skills are somewhat neglected
2020-08-30 16:58:49 felix Can't blame you. My French is barely usable for lack of practice.
2020-08-30 16:59:31 felix Been making efforts to follow French speakers online.
2020-08-30 17:00:01 lukee An interesting fact is that a lot of the early hackers who worked as sysadmins and programmers were often recruited from liberal arts programs
2020-08-30 17:00:20 lukee as computing science wasnt invented yet
2020-08-30 17:00:45 lukee but these literary and linguist types, just learned programming languages and got on with it
2020-08-30 17:01:53 felix And in some cases created them, like Larry Wall and Perl.
2020-08-30 17:01:58 lukee yes
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2020-08-31 00:22:01 makeworld Huh I never knew that, that's interesting
2020-08-31 02:27:26 epoch 15:05:46 < felix> That could be hard for servers too, how are they to know? ;)
2020-08-31 02:28:06 epoch I either generate my feeds from a script so the script outputs the mime-type too, or I abuse extended attributes
2020-08-31 02:28:56 epoch if getfattr -n user.mime-type "$1" >/dev/null 2>&1;then
2020-08-31 02:28:56 epoch MIME_TYPE="$(getfattr --only-values -n user.mime-type "$1" 2>/dev/null)"
2020-08-31 02:28:57 epoch fi
2020-08-31 02:29:21 epoch that's in a mime-type script I use for my httpd and geminid
2020-08-31 02:30:29 epoch first guesses based on file --mime-type, then file extension can override, then the attribute can override file-extension-based guesses.
2020-08-31 02:31:02 ⚡ epoch goes back to reading backlog
2020-08-31 02:33:45 epoch 15:52:56 < lukee> well, not even Web-As-Application, more like WebOS
2020-08-31 02:33:56 epoch wvm, like jvm
2020-08-31 02:36:44 epoch /italic/
2020-08-31 02:37:35 epoch *bold*
2020-08-31 02:37:48 epoch _under_lined_thing_
2020-08-31 02:38:04 epoch -strike-through-stuff-
2020-08-31 02:38:34 easeout kebab-case-ftw
2020-08-31 02:38:54 epoch WhAt Do YoU MeAn? ThIs?
2020-08-31 02:39:13 easeout sassy spongebob case
2020-08-31 02:39:18 epoch oh. kebab.
2020-08-31 02:39:22 epoch like with a stick through it.
2020-08-31 02:39:27 easeout yep!
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2020-08-31 03:05:01 michel Ironically HP and Mozilla once thought they could make a mobile platform out of web alps
2020-08-31 03:05:02 michel Turns out you have to be Google (with Chrome OS) to make it 'work'. It's a monster
2020-08-31 03:06:45 easeout but then you're google and you quit caring about projects after a few years and they stagnate
2020-08-31 03:10:51 ▬▬▶ doppler has joined #gemini
2020-08-31 03:11:53 epoch (btw, if you want a chromebook, someone is giving one away for the price of postage+shipping)
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2020-08-31 03:45:41 doppler what kind of chromebook? I'm just jumping in now
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2020-08-31 03:58:56 epoch https://notbird.site/@grufwub/104778665982482259
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2020-08-31 09:24:24 jan6 michel: problem isn't making it work, problem is advertising and sustaining it... I loved firefoxOS tho...
2020-08-31 09:27:03 jan6 microsoft's also allowing PWAs on their store now, meanwhile on linux there's no support for pwas afaik... well, idk about chrome, maybe that has it
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2020-08-31 10:11:00 rmgr I was stoked for firefoxOS but at the time it started I couldn't afford a device :(
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2020-08-31 11:09:44 lukee FirefoxOS lives as KaiOS - devices are quite affordable. You can download a dev kit and write your own apps (JS) or use the Kaios store which has a few things in it
2020-08-31 11:10:15 lukee I love my Nokia 2720
2020-08-31 11:15:04 omni "gemspace" or what do you call it?
2020-08-31 11:16:32 lukee I think people seem to refer to it as geminispace mostly
2020-08-31 11:17:43 lukee or geminiverse
2020-08-31 11:22:31 lukee I've also heard it called NQ2 - which is the celestial quadrant that contains the Gemini constellation
2020-08-31 11:22:53 lukee gemspace is cool too
2020-08-31 11:31:05 omni it's quite short and pronouncable and it also gives you the idea of a space filled with gems while you (may) still associate to gemini
2020-08-31 11:31:11 omni NQ2 is pretty cool
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2020-08-31 12:05:13 epoch how about gemweb?
2020-08-31 12:05:58 @tomasino i've seen gemspace most often
2020-08-31 12:06:11 epoch "the web" is just all hypertexts that are linked together?
2020-08-31 12:06:27 @tomasino the web just invites confusion
2020-08-31 12:07:30 epoch x-web could be a subset of the web that is based on 'x'?
2020-08-31 12:07:58 epoch merp. power might go out here.
2020-08-31 12:13:22 epoch very blustery
2020-08-31 12:13:31 ⚡ epoch checks for turdnado warnings
2020-08-31 12:13:56 lukee turdnado - a tornado of turds - definitely avoid!
2020-08-31 12:16:22 epoch severe thunderstorm watch, possible hail, 50 mph winds, shitloads of rain
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2020-08-31 12:17:51 epoch https://radar.weather.gov/Conus/full_loop.php loads in 2 seconds
2020-08-31 12:18:02 epoch https://www.wunderground.com/wundermap?lat=35.23&lon=-93.141 takes like a minute
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2020-08-31 12:21:50 @tomasino uhoh
2020-08-31 12:22:11 felix TFW you have a new daily routine, and it involves checking CAPCOM.
2020-08-31 12:22:25 @tomasino :D
2020-08-31 12:22:46 felix In other news: gemini://gemini.ctrl-c.club/~nttp/toys/gemview.gmi
2020-08-31 12:23:28 xfnw ctrl-c has gemini? cool
2020-08-31 12:23:48 felix Yep! It was added two or three weeks ago.
2020-08-31 12:23:49 lukee hi felix - good to see your viewer live now
2020-08-31 12:24:03 felix Thank you!
2020-08-31 12:25:11 lukee does it take content on stdin?
2020-08-31 12:25:43 felix Oops, I didn't think of that. In the next version, hopefully.
2020-08-31 12:26:27 lukee once you have that you can do gemget <url> -o - | gemview
2020-08-31 12:26:37 felix I see!
2020-08-31 12:26:57 lukee or hot wire the links to call gemget.
2020-08-31 12:27:08 lukee but as you say, it doesnt have to become a full client
2020-08-31 12:27:39 felix Something to keep in mind anyway.
2020-08-31 12:28:20 lukee of should I say ⌊gemget <url> -o - | gemview⌉
2020-08-31 12:28:34 lukee of -> or
2020-08-31 12:28:35 felix :D
2020-08-31 12:59:05 lukee does anyone here have experience using AV-98?
2020-08-31 12:59:37 felix Nope, sorry. I seem to remember trying it out a while ago, but briefly.
2020-08-31 12:59:50 lukee I'm trying to find the required format of the config file /~av98/av98rc
2020-08-31 13:00:15 lukee in it you can define preferences and proxies etc
2020-08-31 13:00:36 lukee the script mentions it, but I can't find an example yet
2020-08-31 13:02:36 felix I see! Isn't that odd?
2020-08-31 13:04:43 lukee maybe the user never needs to edit it... I will try something else
2020-08-31 13:10:12 lukee ok scrub that previous request - no longer needed
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2020-08-31 13:20:52 ⚡ felix waves!
2020-08-31 13:24:30 dctrud Good morning... at least here it is :-)
2020-08-31 13:24:40 lukee good afternoon
2020-08-31 13:24:59 felix :D
2020-08-31 13:40:31 felix Say, it seems to me that Gemini clients are giving Gopher a boost, too.
2020-08-31 13:40:46 dkibi woooho it's time to switch to a nong lived certificate
2020-08-31 13:40:56 dkibi until then: my capsule isnot accessible ^^
2020-08-31 13:40:57 felix Yay!
2020-08-31 13:41:02 felix Awww.
2020-08-31 13:41:51 dkibi (I saw that comming, but had no chance to perpare the cert before. house move of friend hat priority ^^)
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2020-08-31 13:44:51 felix Fair enough. Hi there!
2020-08-31 13:47:45 dkibi had
2020-08-31 13:48:22 dkibi "hat priority _M_"
2020-08-31 13:48:51 felix Hats get priority all right. Especially cool hats.
2020-08-31 13:54:11 djph felix: fezzes are cool now.
2020-08-31 13:56:09 felix Really?
2020-08-31 13:57:07 djph felix: I take it you're not one to watch Dr. Who.
2020-08-31 13:57:18 felix Nope.
2020-08-31 13:58:21 djph haha
2020-08-31 13:59:10 djph The Doctor in a couple of episodes (IIRC, it was a 2 parter) finds a fez and starts wearing it. When questioned about it, he goes "fezzes are cool now."
2020-08-31 14:00:15 felix :D
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2020-08-31 14:17:52 felix Welcome back!
2020-08-31 14:34:11 xj9 someone asked about an open source thing like vulpes or mozz. I have a WIP program deployed at https://sunshinegardens.org witb a source link in the footer
2020-08-31 14:34:34 xfnw coooleo
2020-08-31 14:37:51 xfnw ooo cool sourcehut
2020-08-31 14:39:17 felix It's increasingly popular.
2020-08-31 14:39:23 felix And yeah, cool site too!
2020-08-31 14:39:43 felix People make awesome things on the small internet.
2020-08-31 14:44:28 @tomasino sunshine city
2020-08-31 14:48:37 felix :)
2020-08-31 14:49:29 felix xj9: Your wrote about what an Amiga might look like today.
2020-08-31 14:49:41 felix Reminded me of this: gemini://gemini.ctrl-c.club/~nttp/writing/retro.gmi
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2020-08-31 15:07:42 felix Welcome back!
2020-08-31 15:17:10 kevinsan hi felix, i followed the link to your page on small web yesterday (and spent quite some time exploring - do you ever sleep?). lots of lovely stuff!
2020-08-31 15:17:44 felix Thank you!
2020-08-31 15:18:08 felix That site has been around for a while.
2020-08-31 15:18:29 felix 13 or 14 years now.
2020-08-31 15:18:42 kevinsan the small-web thing was interesting, in particular reference to indieweb which seems a good idea woefully implemented/.
2020-08-31 15:18:58 felix How so?
2020-08-31 15:19:30 kevinsan all i got from it was a) moaning about the web, b) some tips on setting up a web site.
2020-08-31 15:20:29 kevinsan but it seemed so vague, and what was written was largely unfathomable to me. it's just a badly organised wiki
2020-08-31 15:20:56 kevinsan am i missing something (i did read one of your articles that praised the wiki, i just couldn't see it)
2020-08-31 15:24:07 felix Dunno what to say. It's interesting that your experience was so different.
2020-08-31 15:24:39 felix But yeah, I think we're on the right path here.
2020-08-31 15:25:24 felix Sorry, I'll have to idle soon. Back later.
2020-08-31 15:26:37 xj9 felix: added your link to my reading list
2020-08-31 15:27:25 felix <3
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2020-08-31 15:35:41 kevinsan indieweb is like encouraging everyone to create their own personal space on the web, then throwing an IBM WebSphere RedBook at them (microformats2? http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2)
2020-08-31 15:36:18 kevinsan it's almost like they want to put people off :)
2020-08-31 15:37:06 @tomasino if you ignore webmentions, the rest is pretty simple
2020-08-31 15:37:55 sandra Yeah, my take on it was more like "Here are some optional already-invented wheels for some wheels you might otherwise wanna invent"
2020-08-31 15:38:00 kevinsan i couldn't get a handle on what 'the rest' is
2020-08-31 15:38:22 @tomasino identification mostly
2020-08-31 15:38:25 sandra I don't wanna use any of that stuff
2020-08-31 15:38:58 @tomasino not gonna hold anyone to the fire if indieweb isn't your fancy
2020-08-31 15:39:09 @tomasino it seems like it's 90% one guy anway
2020-08-31 15:41:04 sandra I've gotten really good use out of the xoxo outline format, is that them? Or is that something else
2020-08-31 15:41:06 sandra That was a few years og
2020-08-31 15:41:49 sandra s/og/ago
2020-08-31 15:42:12 sandra http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo
2020-08-31 15:42:18 felix I'm back! That was quick.
2020-08-31 15:42:43 felix And that's funny... thought I was critical of the IndieWeb.
2020-08-31 15:43:41 kevinsan felix, you were, but you had an earlier post when you were not
2020-08-31 15:44:22 felix Well, there are good things and bad things IMO.
2020-08-31 15:44:50 felix Clearly I'm not among the fiercest critics.
2020-08-31 15:45:05 sandra I'm not super hype on POSSE :/ I mean obviously "PESOS" (their word, don't shoot the messenger on that) is worse
2020-08-31 15:45:16 kevinsan sandra, xoxo - patented? why would anyone waste money patenting that when simply writing it provides prior-art?
2020-08-31 15:45:22 sandra But I don't want to put anything on Facebook etc
2020-08-31 15:45:34 sandra kevinsan: Holy shit, I didn't know it was patented
2020-08-31 15:45:45 sandra I use a method of lacing shoes that's technically patented
2020-08-31 15:45:57 sandra By some cave explorer guy. But IDGAF :( eff patents
2020-08-31 15:46:41 kevinsan didn't know that, what does EFF patent?
2020-08-31 15:47:04 sandra I meant "fuck patents"
2020-08-31 15:47:24 kevinsan yes, the penny dropped soon after hitting enter
2020-08-31 15:47:35 sandra IDK why I wrote eff for fuck, that wasn't a particularly deliberate or thought-through decision either way
2020-08-31 15:48:04 kevinsan i don't tend to swear on this channel - it seems too polite.
2020-08-31 15:48:26 sandra I didn't want to smear the Electronic Frontier Foundation though.
2020-08-31 15:48:45 sandra Smearing < Swearing
2020-08-31 15:49:34 companion_cube schmearing > swearing
2020-08-31 15:49:45 sandra Right, that's a given
2020-08-31 15:50:20 sandra From which we can deduce that smearing < schmearing
2020-08-31 15:50:26 companion_cube definitely
2020-08-31 15:54:42 kevinsan felix, gemview is cool - I didn't really know what tcl/tk was (shamefully), or that it was already installed on my server.
2020-08-31 15:54:57 felix Go figure! Thanks!
2020-08-31 15:55:52 companion_cube it's incredible
2020-08-31 15:56:06 companion_cube I think the first time I really heard about tcl was in the context of sqlite
2020-08-31 15:56:13 companion_cube which started its life as a tcl extension?
2020-08-31 15:56:14 kevinsan you seem to get a lot of bang for buck - a GUI in a handful of lines of code. Can you recommend any further reading?
2020-08-31 15:57:29 felix https://tkdocs.com/ is *the* way to learn.
2020-08-31 15:57:45 felix And more generally, https://wiki.tcl-lang.org/
2020-08-31 16:00:10 companion_cube is it really still alive?
2020-08-31 16:00:23 felix Very much so.
2020-08-31 16:00:42 companion_cube (to clarify, I meant tk)
2020-08-31 16:02:49 felix Yes, of course!
2020-08-31 16:03:02 felix It's continually developed, just slowly and sustainably.
2020-08-31 16:03:13 felix People *think* before adding to it.
2020-08-31 16:03:39 sandra My long standard rant on copyright (that briefly mention patents) gemini://idiomdrottning.org/stance_on_copyright.gmi Uh, it's a mix of stuff I mostly wrote many years ago and I only update some corners of it every now and then
2020-08-31 16:04:27 felix Everyone else rushes forward at a breakneck pace, always breaking stuff.
2020-08-31 16:04:58 sandra Oh TCL 8 added arrays, I didn't know about that
2020-08-31 16:05:27 felix That was like a quarter century ago. :P
2020-08-31 16:06:07 ⚡ sandra = old
2020-08-31 16:06:26 sandra I always knew of TCL as "that language that doesn't even have arrays"
2020-08-31 16:06:45 felix As for your post... I've only ever seen trademarks abused.
2020-08-31 16:06:51 xj9 a lot of inferno ui stuff is done in tk, but i haven't gotten around to learning yet. still trying to get the darn thing to bootstrap on alpine.
2020-08-31 16:07:05 felix Aw.
2020-08-31 16:07:17 sandra felix: Only as in you haven't seen them used for good, or only as in you haven't seen copyright or patents used for bad?
2020-08-31 16:07:48 felix Oh, all of them are only used for evil. Trademarks however are doubly so.
2020-08-31 16:08:06 sandra Thanks for that clarification, was just gonna go on a long rant about the evils of patents♥
2020-08-31 16:08:41 sandra I think it's more of a philosophical hypothetical that I could see the value in protecting names somehow, IDK. You're definitely right about practice
2020-08-31 16:09:47 felix Only practice matters. Got a friend who keeps defending the principle.
2020-08-31 16:09:52 felix Why should I care.
2020-08-31 16:10:15 felix The prison system in my country also claims to be all about rehabilitation.
2020-08-31 16:10:16 sandra Practice matters much more than principle
2020-08-31 16:10:24 felix Who gives a damn when results are always opposite.
2020-08-31 16:10:35 sandra Principle can a good thing when considering future practice
2020-08-31 16:12:00 sandra Right, incarceration is such a disgusting mix of completely different things. "Revenge", "rehabilitation", "deterrent", "protecting the general public", validation of victims, validation of societal norms. It does most of those things very poorly and many of those things are actively bad things.
2020-08-31 16:13:05 felix That's a discussion for elsewhere though. :)
2020-08-31 16:13:06 kevinsan sandra, or from a practical perspective, incarceration is just out of the way and out of sight so far as 'society' is concerned.
2020-08-31 16:13:33 kevinsan felix, why do you rate trademarks as worse than patents?
2020-08-31 16:13:48 felix Because they don't expire and are much more easily abused.
2020-08-31 16:14:04 sandra kevinsan: right, that's sort of what I was going at with the bogus "protecting" thing. But I can drop the topic
2020-08-31 16:14:26 felix And if you want to protect a brand? We already have counterfeiting laws.
2020-08-31 16:15:30 kevinsan hmm, that's beyond my understanding. i always considered counterfeiting laws as dependent on trademark law
2020-08-31 16:15:32 sandra Counterfeinting is what I'm not so hot on, compared to other copying
2020-08-31 16:17:23 kevinsan patent law prevents me from bringing stuff to market (in some hypothetical world where i have entrepeneurial skills!), trademark law just limits my branding, no?
2020-08-31 16:17:31 djph ^
2020-08-31 16:17:45 felix No, it can also be used to *steal* a product name you worked for years to promote.
2020-08-31 16:17:51 sandra What does the ^ convention mean on IRC? I've seen it in other channels too.
2020-08-31 16:18:03 felix They tried it with Python, of all things.
2020-08-31 16:18:11 felix I think it means "this".
2020-08-31 16:18:21 djph ^ (or "above")
2020-08-31 16:18:28 kevinsan right, so I create a product and then much later someone trademarks it and prevents me from using it?
2020-08-31 16:18:43 sandra As in QFT minus the Q?
2020-08-31 16:18:55 kevinsan unless I go to the lengths to trademark it myself and defend it forever more?
2020-08-31 16:19:06 felix kevinsan: yes. It's not theory. It happened to me and others.
2020-08-31 16:19:19 felix It almost happened to the Python Foundation.
2020-08-31 16:19:24 kevinsan ok, so yes, that's crappy abuse of law
2020-08-31 16:19:29 djph depends on where you live. IN THEORY, the creator has trademark from day one.
2020-08-31 16:19:51 djph You just have to have the resources and proof when garbage people try taking it from you
2020-08-31 16:19:55 felix Dunno where that's the case.
2020-08-31 16:20:22 felix I can't afford a lawyer anyway.
2020-08-31 16:21:24 felix You know how according to law you can't in fact trademark common words?
2020-08-31 16:21:34 felix Apple. Word. Windows. So much for that.
2020-08-31 16:21:47 felix It's how much money you have. Law for the rich.
2020-08-31 16:22:14 djph pretty sure "Windows" doesn't have (TM) or (R) after it
2020-08-31 16:22:22 felix It doesn't need to.
2020-08-31 16:22:31 sandra You can't trademark words that are common in the same class.
2020-08-31 16:22:40 felix And you'll see the mark too, in many settings.
2020-08-31 16:23:00 sandra Like a fruit seller can't trademark Apple but a record company can
2020-08-31 16:23:30 felix Well, isn't that a nice loophole?
2020-08-31 16:23:37 djph well, given Apple iTunes, a record company may have trouble
2020-08-31 16:23:45 sandra Microsoft hasn't got a trademark on Word
2020-08-31 16:24:00 sandra The Apple record company predated Apple computer
2020-08-31 16:24:05 djph but yeah, "Trademarks" basically live within a given domain
2020-08-31 16:24:14 sandra They do have a trademark on Windows which in hindsight is weird AF.
2020-08-31 16:24:56 djph sandra: sure, if they existed first and held the trademark for Apple Recording Company; Apple Computer Corporation needs to walk carefully
2020-08-31 16:25:20 sandra It wasn't my intention when I wrote a rant on the evils on copyright that I'd fall into an argument on how "trademarks are sorta, maybe, kinda OK, or they could be if they were implemented better and more fairly"
2020-08-31 16:25:44 sandra https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Corps_v_Apple_Computer
2020-08-31 16:26:46 sandra Like, I don't want anyone emailing from my email address except me. I could see someone feel feel similarly about a trademark
2020-08-31 16:28:36 felix Yeah, never mind. We're on the same side, that's what matters.
2020-08-31 16:28:44 sandra ♥
2020-08-31 16:31:02 felix Otherwise you seem to be into D&D?
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2020-08-31 16:32:34 felix Hello!
2020-08-31 16:32:48 sandra I like D&D
2020-08-31 16:33:32 sandra I like that it's open source, hacking on rules and seeing the consequences of those hacked rules is great fun♥
2020-08-31 16:33:46 felix :)
2020-08-31 16:34:26 felix Rule systems can be a lot of fun all right.
2020-08-31 16:35:07 sandra I switched from an improv-heavy, rules-light style to the opposite about 8 years ago. Loving it now♥
2020-08-31 16:35:21 felix Interesting!
2020-08-31 16:37:08 sandra I don't prep plot, just locations, obstacles, rewards. Porte-monstre-trésor!
2020-08-31 16:37:23 felix :D
2020-08-31 16:37:49 felix Off-topic: gus.guru reports 200 Gemini domains as of yesterday!
2020-08-31 16:38:42 felix And that has OSR vibes, doesn't it?
2020-08-31 16:38:58 kevinsan man OSR
2020-08-31 16:39:05 sandra OSR is an awesome way to play D&D
2020-08-31 16:39:16 sandra Old School Renaissance
2020-08-31 16:39:18 kevinsan lol, ok intertwined conversations
2020-08-31 16:39:44 felix Wanted to steer it towards cheerful things.
2020-08-31 16:40:07 sandra But I've gradually & slowly gone more rules-heavy than OSR
2020-08-31 16:40:25 felix Whatever floats your boat.
2020-08-31 16:40:48 sandra Do you play and/or run any D&D?
2020-08-31 16:41:29 felix Nope! To me tabletop RPGs are more of a literary form.
2020-08-31 16:41:55 sandra Yeah, that's quite a different style, I've some experience with that in the past
2020-08-31 16:42:07 felix I did some PBP, and chat RP. Only twice in person.
2020-08-31 16:42:52 felix Got my own rule system, but it's for roguelikes and such.
2020-08-31 16:43:10 felix Though it's based on real dice, and presented as if for tabletop.
2020-08-31 16:43:39 sandra Is it multiplayer or singleplayer? I've played a ton of Cave Noire which is a single player rogue-style game
2020-08-31 16:43:47 sandra From 1991
2020-08-31 16:44:10 felix It's designed for single-player games, not sure how it would fare in multiplayer.
2020-08-31 16:44:52 felix And I never heard of Cave Noire!
2020-08-31 16:45:41 sandra I didn't play it back in the original 1991 but it got fan translated a few years ago and that's when I picked it up
2020-08-31 16:45:59 felix A friend recently told me about Mystery Dungeon.
2020-08-31 16:46:14 felix Sounds a lot like what I've been going for in recent games.
2020-08-31 16:46:15 sandra That might be similar from what I understand
2020-08-31 16:48:31 felix Yeah, a blend of roguelikes and action-adventure.
2020-08-31 16:48:46 felix Turn-based, but fast-paced and simple, yet still tactical.
2020-08-31 16:53:00 ▬▬▶ sloum has joined #gemini
2020-08-31 16:53:17 sandra Hi is this sloum from Spacewalk?
2020-08-31 16:53:26 sloum Hi :) Yes, it is.
2020-08-31 16:53:27 sandra I just emailed you
2020-08-31 16:53:37 sloum Oh, cool. I'll log in and check.
2020-08-31 16:53:41 sandra Thank you♥
2020-08-31 16:53:42 ⚡ felix waves!
2020-08-31 16:54:40 sloum Spacewalk doesnt work off of atom feeds. It checks a static page for changes at regular intervals. Do you have a URL that you would like it to track (preferably one with just a listing of posts, but technically any page can work).
2020-08-31 16:54:49 sloum If you'd prefer we can discuss via email instead.
2020-08-31 16:55:05 felix Interesting!
2020-08-31 16:55:15 sandra texts.gmi and/or images.gmi but the latter just has links to images (via gemini://)
2020-08-31 16:55:34 sandra Both update on the reg with newest on top
2020-08-31 16:55:40 sloum Ok. Cool. I'll get it set up and e-mail you a confirmation.
2020-08-31 16:56:00 sandra Much apprec♥
2020-08-31 16:56:46 sandra index.gmi does not change very often by comparison to those two
2020-08-31 16:57:24 sandra I am so grateful for this. Thank you sloum
2020-08-31 16:57:58 sloum No problem at all. just added it and emailed you back.
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2020-08-31 17:03:54 dctrud apologies sloum - that reminded me I hadn't remembered to ask yet... so you have an email from me too
2020-08-31 17:04:56 sloum Haha, no worries. There has been a lot of interest lately.
2020-08-31 17:05:13 sandra I heard about Gemini for the first time ever the other day
2020-08-31 17:06:12 sloum It seems to be steadily growing, which is pretty cool.
2020-08-31 17:08:39 felix sandra: you're moving quickly!
2020-08-31 17:09:07 sandra I had some text files and pictures already laying around
2020-08-31 17:09:22 sandra I didn't write/draw all that stuff in one day :)
2020-08-31 17:09:45 felix Even so. Gonna take me a lot longer to bring my stuff over.
2020-08-31 17:10:04 felix And yes it's growing. I first heard about it... in spring or so?
2020-08-31 17:13:31 sandra Yes, I've seen some older posts from around there
2020-08-31 17:13:52 sandra Of course I backdated all my posts :D
2020-08-31 17:14:13 felix Fair enough.
2020-08-31 17:14:19 sloum I remember when it didnt have a name and was an idea solderpunk was throwing around on the server, lol. It came as a shock to all when Sean implemented a server based on the posts/conversations.
2020-08-31 17:14:39 felix That sounds like the story of Lisp.
2020-08-31 17:15:38 sandra John McCarthy > Joseph McCarty
2020-08-31 17:17:30 ℹ drskrzyk_ is now known as drskrzyk
2020-08-31 17:19:43 felix :D
2020-08-31 17:20:47 sandra I was never into Gopher but I am nostalgic AF for the pre-HTML 3.2 web. My https front page is pretty much justa bunch of direct links to png-files and the texts are pretty pared down HTML. Happy to "bi-host" on Gemini too. I think it can be cozy AF to browse around on Gemini
2020-08-31 17:21:44 felix Sounds good!
2020-08-31 17:22:12 felix I wrote two Gopher clients, and recently praised the HTML 3.2 era.
2020-08-31 17:22:40 sloum What clients, felix? Would I have maybe used one?
2020-08-31 17:23:56 sandra To me the whole CSS thing was a breath of fresh air; I don't have fond memories of FONT-FAMILY and spacer gifs :) But pre-HTML 3.2 OTOH... ♥♥ gray backgrounds, blue and purple links♥
2020-08-31 17:24:59 sandra For me growing up, Internet was mostly mailing lists and IRC (and Usenet but I'm not nostalgic for that at all). Homepages were like a short bio, maybe some poems, fan art, fanfics…
2020-08-31 17:25:38 sandra I don't mean to be butting heads with you, Felix :) I get that Gemini is connected to the Gopher community in many ways
2020-08-31 17:26:20 sloum I think all of the protocols ahve their place and their function. nothing wrong with someone liking one and not another. People should use the tools as tools (and just use the ones that accomplish their goals).
2020-08-31 17:27:03 sloum I am glad to see more and more people questioning the modern web. Though I wish that trend would start to extend to more than just technically minded folks.
2020-08-31 17:29:10 sandra I agree with that last sentence especially
2020-08-31 17:29:19 felix sloum: Pocket Gopher for J2ME (not the Android client), and Gophersnake.
2020-08-31 17:29:46 felix And yeah, these days it's mostly Gemini clients also supporting Gopher.
2020-08-31 17:30:00 felix Because why not, and/or for old days' sake.
2020-08-31 17:30:05 sloum Oh! I had forgotten! I amde a PR into gophersnake awhile back, adding gif support.
2020-08-31 17:30:32 felix That was you? Most grateful.
2020-08-31 17:30:40 sloum :-D
2020-08-31 17:31:00 sloum That was around the time I wrote my first client (my only graphical one).
2020-08-31 17:31:26 felix Good work!
2020-08-31 17:31:59 sloum Have you written one for gemini?
2020-08-31 17:32:34 felix Nope, it seems kinda pointless. Existing clients are already great.
2020-08-31 17:32:51 sloum There are definitely a lot to choose from. Flavors for all tastes.
2020-08-31 17:33:04 felix sandra: the Internet is a lot more than just the web, so that's fair.
2020-08-31 17:34:08 felix sloum: we live an age of plenty. When I wrote Gophersnake, it was the only one that was remotely modern like that.
2020-08-31 17:34:13 sandra I'd spend hours & hours on mailing lists and IRC, I was in a few communities that way. That was my teens♥
2020-08-31 17:35:25 felix :)
2020-08-31 17:35:46 sandra I started using IRC again a month ago or so (I mean, I've had it running for Bitlbee all these years but that's it).
2020-08-31 17:35:58 felix Yeah, I only got online in 1999. Had to learn about the rest.
2020-08-31 17:36:43 sandra You got online in 1999 and you still wrote Gophersnake! Wow, yeah, I can see how that could happen. I've been into older versions of D&D and older versions of Lisp
2020-08-31 17:36:43 sloum I was online in 95 or so, but I mostly just used the web to search for anime images on lycos, lol.
2020-08-31 17:37:06 sloum Then making websites for my bands in high school. No IRC till much after it had fallen out of favor with popular culture.
2020-08-31 17:37:25 felix <3
2020-08-31 17:39:31 felix There are so many awesome stories from the old days.
2020-08-31 17:39:54 felix That's the spirit we're all trying to rekindle I think.
2020-08-31 17:41:12 sandra I never got on the silo social media like Facebook, Twitter... I've been kinda out of the loop mostly. Forums, I've been on though.
2020-08-31 17:41:17 sloum Definitely. The internet (and in this case I suppose I mostly mean the web) felt so magical in those days. It felt more collaborative. I miss the days where there was no concept of online shopping (at elast not one that anybody trusted).
2020-08-31 17:41:45 sandra I've been hitting that same "magic" a lot lately with things like Gemini. It's awesome
2020-08-31 17:41:46 sloum I liked forums. I also like web pages using pagination instead of f***ing infinite scroll.
2020-08-31 17:41:56 felix ^
2020-08-31 17:42:09 sloum Yeah! I think gemini and gopher both keep that spirit alive. just lots of folks being weird and quirky and sharing with each other.
2020-08-31 17:42:15 felix I ran forums for friends. Would do it again in a heartbeat.
2020-08-31 17:43:32 felix And here in these spaces I can just hop from link to link reading.
2020-08-31 17:43:58 felix Exploring the rabbit hole and not caring where it leads.
2020-08-31 17:45:25 dctrud Forums used to be fun. Was involved in running the guild of students / student union site web stuff at university. We had a very active forum community for a bit.
2020-08-31 17:45:34 felix Oh, cool!
2020-08-31 17:45:39 dctrud Just before Facebook opened up to non-US universities
2020-08-31 17:46:39 dctrud Used to look after the main student union web site, and also the hosting used by student societies. Plus hosting for the radio station and student TV station
2020-08-31 17:46:45 felix I know a few that are doing well right now. And one that's dying out.
2020-08-31 17:46:58 felix Though forums seem to be doing better than wikis overall.
2020-08-31 17:47:21 felix Oh, a webmaster in the old sense of the word.
2020-08-31 17:47:22 sloum With the exception of Wikipedia I assume.
2020-08-31 17:47:46 felix Arguably.
2020-08-31 17:48:42 dctrud Questionable web design back then though... by me/us :-) https://web.archive.org/web/20040604145900/http://xnet.ex.ac.uk/content/
2020-08-31 17:49:11 sloum I dunno, that looks about right for the listed time period.
2020-08-31 17:49:27 felix ^
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2020-08-31 17:50:01 dctrud We had t-shirts in the bright yellow too. Heh.
2020-08-31 17:50:26 felix Hee!
2020-08-31 17:51:39 dctrud After my time I think it continued on until 2007ish, then rapidly fizzled out as people used Facebook and so on instead
2020-08-31 17:51:58 felix We all fell into that trap for a while. :(
2020-08-31 17:52:21 felix I became a WordPress developer. Made my own CMS, too. What a trap.
2020-08-31 17:52:41 sandra I lost a lot of friends when Facebook became a thing. Suddenly I stopped getting invited to things. Which, OK, I wasn't an un-asshole back then so I think people kinda happily didn't make that much of an effort to invite me, but it hit me kinda suddenly and I didn't realize what was going on
2020-08-31 17:52:41 dctrud The student union contracted a firm who were really a marketing agency to make a flash but content-less site. Students no longer did the site themselves etc. Sad, but that's how it all went around then.
2020-08-31 17:52:57 felix Blogged for years on My Opera. All tears in the rain now.
2020-08-31 17:54:26 felix sandra: to people on FB, we don't exist. To us, they don't exist.
2020-08-31 17:54:32 dctrud I think what's fun about gemini to me is it's individuals or small groups doing their own thing, like more of the web used to be. Not so much the specific topics or aesthetic, just the more personal feel.
2020-08-31 17:54:38 felix We have all the rest of the internet.
2020-08-31 17:55:02 sandra FB is pretty much over these days
2020-08-31 17:55:13 dctrud Heh, sadly I do exist on FB - otherwise I'd miss important info from my kid's school
2020-08-31 17:55:18 felix Well, Gemini is a small world for now. Though I think there's more.
2020-08-31 17:55:34 felix sandra: hopefully.
2020-08-31 17:56:31 felix Neocities isn't half bad, in fact there are cool people there too.
2020-08-31 17:57:47 dctrud have a good day all, I must head back to Zoom-land
2020-08-31 17:57:55 sandra Nice meeting you
2020-08-31 17:57:59 dctrud cheers, and you!
2020-08-31 17:58:02 sloum I've had trouble with the idea of things like neocities. On the one hand it is very cool (I used both geocities and angelfire back in the day), but on the other it still exists within the web. I think I would prefer that it were a separate thing.
2020-08-31 17:58:16 sloum Have a good one dctrud
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2020-08-31 17:58:52 felix There's Flounder, for what it's worth.
2020-08-31 17:58:55 sandra I like smaller rooms, smaller groups. Talking with each other instead of tryna build an audience, get "followers". But I don't like it when technical-mindedness is the password to those smaller rooms.
2020-08-31 17:59:17 sandra Being web-based can be a lower barrier to entry I would assume. I personally hate the web
2020-08-31 17:59:32 felix That's where Gemini can help. It's much simpler than Markdown, let alone HTML.
2020-08-31 17:59:49 felix Though I do think a little bit of HTML isn't that hard to learn.
2020-08-31 17:59:54 felix And worth the effort.
2020-08-31 18:00:10 felix I taught it to beginners. People are smart. They don't mind.
2020-08-31 18:00:20 sandra It was very difficult to get on Gemini for me. The list of software was… On Gemini.
2020-08-31 18:01:16 sandra There was an SSH kiosk but most of the software that it linked to was on https and those links didn't work, it didn't even show you the URLs.
2020-08-31 18:01:20 felix I learned about Bombadillo from the Ctrl-C.club docs.
2020-08-31 18:01:25 sandra The web proxies were down
2020-08-31 18:01:50 felix Ugh. Sorry to hear that.
2020-08-31 18:02:31 sandra I managed to find one client, a kind of wonky one, and from there I could find the longer list of clients and servers
2020-08-31 18:03:39 sandra So I should ask solderpunk to put the list of software on https too. I get that some of the links are Gemini but many of them were https links to various git-hosting places. It's a boot strapping issue
2020-08-31 18:04:47 sandra The world's tiniest violin♥
2020-08-31 18:05:05 sandra Just saying that the gmi text format wasn't the issue :)
2020-08-31 18:05:34 felix For what it's worth, my capsule on Flounder links to Kristall.
2020-08-31 18:06:08 felix Bombadillo only has a web page, strangely enough.
2020-08-31 18:06:39 sloum gopher://bombadillo.gopher (on openNic; or: gopher://bombadillo.colorfield.space)
2020-08-31 18:07:11 felix Oh! I didn't think to check on *Gopher*. :P
2020-08-31 18:07:21 sandra Right, but as opposed to on gemini://
2020-08-31 18:08:10 felix I keep forgetting it's primarily a Gopher client.
2020-08-31 18:08:13 sandra People can love limits, like Twitter took off like wildfire because the original crowd was attracted to the, what was it, 140? IDK I never had Twitter. So the gmi format itself can become much loved I think
2020-08-31 18:08:30 sloum My gemini server doesnt support virtual hosts, so I ahve been unable to host bombadillo on gemini _and_ host gemlog.blue on the same machine.
2020-08-31 18:08:37 felix That was it, yeah. Until a few months ago in fact.
2020-08-31 18:08:40 sloum I havent wanted to set up another machine, so it is gopher and web right now.
2020-08-31 18:09:00 felix Fair enough.
2020-08-31 18:09:17 sloum I suppose I could set something up on finger though, lol.
2020-08-31 18:09:33 felix sandra: Ironically, I once considered a wiki markup a lot like gemtext.
2020-08-31 18:09:51 felix But dismissed it for being too limited.
2020-08-31 18:11:09 sloum Soooooo much conversation for so long was about the limited nature of the text/gemini format. Many wanted more, many wanted less. I am pretty happy with where it has landed.
2020-08-31 18:11:23 felix Me too!
2020-08-31 18:11:52 sloum I think solderpunk has done an amazing job of managing the push for growth/more and has exercised a lot of restraint, to the betterment of the protocol.
2020-08-31 18:12:09 sandra Did it start out with more or with less?
2020-08-31 18:12:29 sloum It was kind of organic for a bit and people were testing out ideas.
2020-08-31 18:12:42 sloum At one point there were numbered and unnumbered lists that supported nesting.
2020-08-31 18:13:12 felix Far as I can tell, the idea is that you can parse gemtext just by looking at the first 1-3 characters of each line.
2020-08-31 18:13:30 sandra Well, it has state, like whether you're in a pre block or not
2020-08-31 18:13:49 sloum That has become a big part of it. I think the goal, more than that, is that a novice programmer should be able to write a parser for it easily.
2020-08-31 18:13:52 sloum In any language.
2020-08-31 18:14:03 felix Yes, but no having to hunt for inline markup with regular expressions or anything.
2020-08-31 18:14:06 sloum Yeah. That one was a question as well.
2020-08-31 18:14:30 felix It can't be helped. It's also not hard. I wrote Org Mode parsers.
2020-08-31 18:14:36 felix Those are rather more tricky.
2020-08-31 18:14:41 sloum hahaha totally.
2020-08-31 18:14:49 sandra Yeah I've also written an org mode parser, recently actually!
2020-08-31 18:14:51 sandra ♥
2020-08-31 18:14:56 felix Good work!
2020-08-31 18:14:59 sloum I'm not an emacs user (vim for the win), but I have used org a bit and can imagine the parser being a pain.
2020-08-31 18:15:02 sandra Not a full one so far but it can handle the trees
2020-08-31 18:15:23 felix Same! Two of my friends use it, so.
2020-08-31 18:15:39 sandra I wrote & used https://github.com/johnwcowan/r7rs-work/blob/master/TreesCowan.md with the help of jcowan for purps of working with org-mode
2020-08-31 18:15:49 sandra It can't like, read due dates or tags
2020-08-31 18:15:52 felix I looked into maybe writing text adventures with it.
2020-08-31 18:15:56 sandra It does read the todo state
2020-08-31 18:16:20 sandra Oh I've done simple choose-your-own-adventure ones based on org in the past
2020-08-31 18:16:36 sandra I exported it to XOXO and used JavaScript. This was before I knew that XOXO was patented
2020-08-31 18:16:49 felix Cool!
2020-08-31 18:17:53 sandra He hasn't imported my actual code yet, just the spec. But it's at gemini://idiomdrottning.org/tree.scm
2020-08-31 18:18:25 sandra I, uh, I put a lot of stuff into Gemini… :D
2020-08-31 18:18:30 ⚡ sandra got kinda carried away
2020-08-31 18:18:55 felix Can't blame you!
2020-08-31 18:19:24 sandra That's not the org stuff (ironing out bugs on that one), that's just the tree library
2020-08-31 18:19:31 felix Right!
2020-08-31 18:25:26 felix Well, I should sleep one of these days. See you!
2020-08-31 18:25:48 sandra Same!
2020-08-31 18:26:07 felix has quit (Client exited)
2020-08-31 18:26:13 sloum Haha it is morning here. Have a good night! It was nice talking to you both.
2020-08-31 18:26:44 sandra It's 2026 here
2020-08-31 18:27:38 sloum It is later than I though here: 1127
2020-08-31 18:29:43 @ben ,time
2020-08-31 18:29:53 @ben oh interesting tildebot isn't here
2020-08-31 18:29:55 @ben i figured he was
2020-08-31 18:30:31 @ben PST sloum?
2020-08-31 18:30:35 sloum Yup
2020-08-31 18:32:53 ℹ Notice(cosmic.tilde.chat): *** ben invited tildebot into the channel
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2020-08-31 18:33:00 @ben tildebot: time
2020-08-31 18:33:00 tildebot [Time] Time for ben: 2020-08-31 14:33:00 UTC-4
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2020-08-31 19:59:50 makeworld tildebot: time
2020-08-31 19:59:50 tildebot [Time] makeworld: Please set location, e.g.: ,config makeworld location London, GB
2020-08-31 20:00:06 makeworld ,config makeworld location Toronto
2020-08-31 20:00:07 tildebot [Config] Config 'location' set to {'timezone': 'America/Toronto', 'lat': 43.6534817, 'lon': -79.3839347, 'name': 'Toronto, Ontario, Canada'}
2020-08-31 20:00:11 makeworld tildebot: time
2020-08-31 20:00:11 tildebot [Time] Time for makeworld: 2020-08-31 16:00:11 UTC-4
2020-08-31 20:00:16 makeworld Kewl
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2020-08-31 20:11:46 ⚡ ben waves across lake huron
2020-08-31 20:17:47 michel kensanata: howdy! I should have realized earlier that Gemini folks would hang out on IRC
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2020-08-31 20:20:28 omni ,config omni location nowhere
2020-08-31 20:20:29 tildebot [Config] Config 'location' set to {'timezone': 'Europe/London', 'lat': 52.7395569, 'lon': 1.0826808, 'name': 'Broadland, England, United Kingdom'}
2020-08-31 20:20:36 omni ,config omni location null
2020-08-31 20:20:37 tildebot [Config] Config 'location' set to {'timezone': 'Europe/Berlin', 'lat': 51.3258094, 'lon': 11.3400106, 'name': 'Thuringia, Germany'}
2020-08-31 20:20:47 omni hmm...
2020-08-31 20:26:04 kensanata has quit (The TLS connection was non-properly terminated.)
2020-08-31 20:28:57 michel omni: where does this location get used?
2020-08-31 20:29:41 michel curious because ctrl-c has a script running to do something similar but ... it never outputs my location (need to find some time to debug it) http://ctrl-c.club/~bear/where.html
2020-08-31 20:36:44 omni michel: not sure I understand the question
2020-08-31 20:36:48 omni ,help
2020-08-31 20:36:48 tildebot [Help] I'm https://bitbot.dev. use ',modules' to list modules, ',commands <module>' to list commands and ',help <command>' to see help text for a command
2020-08-31 20:36:53 omni https://github.com/jesopo/bitbot/blob/master/modules/location.py
2020-08-31 20:37:08 omni https://opencagedata.com/api
2020-08-31 20:37:19 michel omni: oh, I'm curious what the location configuration is used for. thanks for the link
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2020-08-31 20:39:49 omni I just poked around a bit, wanting to set tz to utc and noticed that the bot used this data
2020-08-31 20:40:46 omni ,config omni location NQ4
2020-08-31 20:40:47 tildebot [Config] Config 'location' set to {'timezone': 'Asia/Colombo', 'lat': 6.9739071, 'lon': 80.7792292, 'name': 'Nuwara Eliya, Central Province, Sri Lanka'}
2020-08-31 20:43:22 omni michel: besied looking at the code,you can query the bot in a private chat to see what it can do
2020-08-31 20:44:20 omni location is possibly used for more things than just giving you a personalised time repy, but I'm too lazy/tired to investigate
2020-08-31 20:45:25 omni (just look at my spelling of "besides" to see how tired I am)
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2020-08-31 21:20:35 lukee a new toy for everyone
2020-08-31 21:21:20 lukee I present the Duckling Proxy 🦆
2020-08-31 21:21:21 lukee gemini://gemini.marmaladefoo.com/blog/31-Aug-2020_The_Duckling_Proxy.gmi
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2020-08-31 21:51:51 makeworld lukee: Glad to see the go modules stuff worked out! Any hiccups?
2020-08-31 21:52:24 lukee probably - I now need to update one of the linked libraries
2020-08-31 21:52:48 makeworld go get should do the trick, just specify the new tag
2020-08-31 21:52:59 makeworld go get example.com/user/repo@v1.2.3
2020-08-31 21:53:14 makeworld Or @commit or @branch
2020-08-31 21:53:39 makeworld Was there anything I missed in my email? Cause I want to turn it into a post
2020-08-31 21:53:39 lukee I can just update the go.mod file with this and then do a go get?
2020-08-31 21:53:53 makeworld I don't think so
2020-08-31 21:53:58 lukee Your post was really helpful
2020-08-31 21:54:06 makeworld I try to stay away from editing the files directly
2020-08-31 21:54:10 makeworld Thanks!
2020-08-31 21:54:42 lukee so how does one indicate you want to use an updated dependency now?
2020-08-31 21:55:11 makeworld go get example.com/user/repo@v1.2.3 , and then run go mod tidy to clean up
2020-08-31 21:55:11 lukee (sorry I should just read the docs!)
2020-08-31 21:55:22 makeworld Nah it's okay. The docs are annoying lol
2020-08-31 21:55:51 makeworld Just use the @ syntax to specify what version you want
2020-08-31 21:55:59 lukee so that would pull in the 1.2.3 of the linked module into the current package?
2020-08-31 21:56:37 makeworld Yes, and go mod tidy would make sure you don't reference the old version in go.sum or anywhere
2020-08-31 21:56:58 lukee ok thanks - I'll try it out. This is all new to me
2020-08-31 21:57:13 makeworld You got it :)
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2020-08-31 22:28:41 lukee I think I managed to add modules to some more of my Git repos
2020-08-31 22:29:00 lukee so far, no problems
2020-08-31 22:36:46 lukee makeworld: if you feel like writing a blog post on Go modules for the uninitiated, I will be your first reader!
2020-08-31 22:38:37 acdw I'll be second :P
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2020-08-31 22:54:15 makeworld lukee: Great! And sure, I'll send the link here when I write it :)
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2020-08-31 23:12:30 lukee Got to head to bed now - bye o/
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2020-09-01 00:17:59 dctrud oh darn... moving my stuff to a different machine messed up my atom feed, so everything re-appeared at Capcom. Apologies!
2020-09-01 00:20:25 djph oops
2020-09-01 00:35:00 kline is there anyone else who is unable to revoke certificate trust in kristall ?
2020-09-01 00:38:00 kline after revoking trust in a cert in settings, then immediately reopening settings, the cert has reappeared with the original date seen, which makes some capsules unbrowsable
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2020-09-01 02:46:29 easeout duckling proxy sounds cool, looking forward to trying it out
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2020-09-01 07:22:19 @julienxx hello geminauts
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2020-09-01 08:22:26 dkibi heyo!
2020-09-01 08:46:17 sandra Hi!
2020-09-01 08:46:47 sandra Wow, me replying an hour late :) I was cleaning my windows
2020-09-01 08:47:13 sandra Not sure how often other people do it but I think it's like the fifth time for me since I moved here 8 years ago :)
2020-09-01 08:47:34 sandra They look OK now, last time I tried to do it they ended up looking streaked and worse than before
2020-09-01 09:01:33 omni I'd like to say I do it every year, but I don't
2020-09-01 09:01:54 omni also depends on where you live, I guess
2020-09-01 09:03:30 dkibi I dislike cleaning windows, this constant feeling of "I'm about to fall out of the window"
2020-09-01 09:03:35 dkibi I love cleaning mirrors though.
2020-09-01 09:04:28 omni "I'm about to fall into myself"?
2020-09-01 09:04:50 dkibi ^^
2020-09-01 09:06:03 dkibi I still haven't fixed the certs on my capsule. Yesterday when I was about to sit down of my computer my partner found a facebook post where somebody disoved a store and left a ton of funiture near the street for everyone to take.
2020-09-01 09:06:17 dkibi it was on the other side of town and we don't have a car ^^
2020-09-01 09:11:44 dkibi we went to bed at 1AM but as proud owners of two more shelves
2020-09-01 09:12:54 djph yay?
2020-09-01 09:17:34 dkibi Now I'm happy about having them, thought differently about it yesterday night ^^
2020-09-01 09:23:34 sandra Cleaning mirrors is much more fun than cleaning windows
2020-09-01 09:23:54 sandra Also the mirror is hopefully more stationary than an open window on hinges
2020-09-01 09:24:39 sandra Some zen sanghas use "Polish the mirror" as a way to describe the post-satori–practice.♥ Keep on maintaining that clarity
2020-09-01 09:25:01 sandra Congratulations on the shelves♥
2020-09-01 09:27:05 sandra Pleroma has an optional Gopher frontend that I haven't enabled (even though it's read-only) because their Gopher interface doesn't use TLS if I understand things correctly. Maybe if they did a Gemini version♥
2020-09-01 09:27:06 sandra Otoh I'm still not sure how good Gemini's self-signed certs are, seems like they could be susceptible to MitM-style attacks? Uh. Not to slag Gemini of course! Just not sure how it works.
2020-09-01 09:27:16 dkibi I assume they don't talk about the chemical smell of the cleaning product which I hapen to like
2020-09-01 09:27:26 sandra The one thing I would change is that I would've wanted • instead of * for lists
2020-09-01 09:27:42 sandra Oh, I just use ordinary dish washing soap
2020-09-01 09:27:43 dkibi +p
2020-09-01 09:27:44 sandra Lime-smelling
2020-09-01 09:28:05 sandra What is "+p"?
2020-09-01 09:28:33 dkibi it's the missing p in "hapen" :P
2020-09-01 09:28:39 sandra :D
2020-09-01 09:35:22 dkibi they are suspectible to MitM attacks the first time you visit a gemini site. then they are supposed to be remembered. I think it's still not clear what is the best way to replace certificates though.
2020-09-01 09:36:40 sandra Huh… But anytime could be _someone's_ first time. Or with a new client etc.
2020-09-01 09:37:32 djph it's self-signed, or use e.g. letsencrypt
2020-09-01 09:37:32 sandra I haven't been protocol level hacking in a looooong time and not in a hurry to get into doing so. I'll leave it to the other bright minds♥
2020-09-01 09:38:05 sandra Right, I have letsencrypt on other services but used a self-signed for gemini
2020-09-01 09:38:11 dkibi yeah
2020-09-01 09:38:44 sandra If letsencrypt could become the norm that'd solve the problem. Once certbot does Gemini :)
2020-09-01 09:39:03 dkibi on the other hand you don't have to trust central parties, it's a compromise
2020-09-01 09:42:10 sandra So the good part of crypto: hiding from the ISP (and your boyfriend if he is the snooping kind) what requests you are sending, that part we still get on Gemini. Just that the susceptibility to MitM makes me not in too much of a hurry to put, uh, "communication" (messages and such) and similar things there. I even have some of my source code on Gemini now but if people want to be sure it's the real deal and not get M
2020-09-01 09:42:10 sandra itM'ed, they need to clone the repos.
2020-09-01 09:42:39 djph or just sign the package and call it a day
2020-09-01 09:43:03 djph same basic idea as just using http
2020-09-01 09:43:45 djph TBH, using TLS with a push to "use selfsigned" would've just been smarter to implement as "it's in the clear"
2020-09-01 09:54:25 sandra From what book series is "Tanelorn"? I see it on gemspace but it's also something my ex would talk about
2020-09-01 10:01:55 sandra ELRIC! Of course!
2020-09-01 10:08:35 CommunistWolf I just use a valid cert *shrug*
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2020-09-01 13:59:16 @tomasino with tilde.black shut down i've migrated my gemini capsule over to tilde.team
2020-09-01 13:59:21 @tomasino gemini://tilde.team/~tomasino
2020-09-01 14:09:39 felix Yikes?
2020-09-01 14:09:49 login you were a threat to the providers who charged for storage
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2020-09-01 14:10:27 felix :D
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2020-09-01 14:12:32 sandra tomasino: Dvorak FTW!! I switch when I was 19 yo!
2020-09-01 14:12:46 sandra I lost a job as a translator because I was struggling w/ the new layout :D
2020-09-01 14:13:02 sandra Buuuut I've been happy with Dvorak for 21 years now! Over half a life of Dvorak!
2020-09-01 14:13:18 sandra Religious life!♥♥♥♥♥ Same here!
2020-09-01 14:13:27 felix Hee!
2020-09-01 14:13:49 felix Oh, sandra, I brought my RPG over to Gemini.
2020-09-01 14:14:01 sandra Oh that is amazing!
2020-09-01 14:14:38 felix You're very kind.
2020-09-01 14:17:06 sandra What's the url?
2020-09-01 14:18:25 felix gemini://gemini.ctrl-c.club/~nttp/writing/bb2/
2020-09-01 14:19:03 sandra Wow, this is baller!
2020-09-01 14:19:52 @tomasino :D
2020-09-01 14:20:00 felix ^^;
2020-09-01 14:20:05 @tomasino sandra++
2020-09-01 14:20:16 sandra Oh, yeah, CC-BY-SA 4.0 is what I meant to put most of my stuff under too. The https version has that in the meta data but I forgot to write that in the .gmi files for the Gemini version
2020-09-01 14:22:34 felix Yeah, it's much easier when you can simply pick from a dropdown.
2020-09-01 14:24:01 login which is a gui gemini client?
2020-09-01 14:24:29 epoch castor
2020-09-01 14:24:32 epoch kristall
2020-09-01 14:24:44 epoch uhh, those are the two I remember.
2020-09-01 14:25:00 epoch castor is written in rust, and kristall in C++ I think
2020-09-01 14:25:52 felix Geminaut too, if you're on Windows.
2020-09-01 14:26:08 epoch https://github.com/MasterQ32/kristall
2020-09-01 14:26:16 felix ^
2020-09-01 14:26:16 epoch https://git.sr.ht/~julienxx/castor
2020-09-01 14:26:27 felix But yeah, Kristall is my favorite now.
2020-09-01 14:27:04 @tomasino kristall is written in Qt
2020-09-01 14:27:34 xq dang, i shouldn't have set `kristall` to highlight me :D
2020-09-01 14:27:40 felix Sorry!
2020-09-01 14:27:41 xq it's pretty bright atm :D
2020-09-01 14:28:13 djph xq: why not? too many people talking about kristall at the moment? can't get any work done ? :)
2020-09-01 14:28:16 felix tomasino: Qt is the GUI framework.
2020-09-01 14:28:22 xq felix: no.
2020-09-01 14:28:25 @tomasino ^
2020-09-01 14:28:28 xq Qt is *not* a GUI framework
2020-09-01 14:28:29 @tomasino Qt is more than a GUI
2020-09-01 14:28:36 xq QtWidgets is a gui framework built on top of Qt
2020-09-01 14:28:51 dkibi but can you do the qt dance?
2020-09-01 14:28:52 ⚡ tomasino has heard this particular rant from xq a few times now. :D
2020-09-01 14:28:54 xq kristall doesn't use any library except for openssl to do some crypto work
2020-09-01 14:29:13 xq the rest (async networking, async file i/o, ...) is Qts work
2020-09-01 14:29:31 companion_cube dkibi: you're cruel :p
2020-09-01 14:31:00 dkibi xD
2020-09-01 14:31:08 dkibi I forgot that you're in here ^^
2020-09-01 14:31:47 xq the world is damn small :D
2020-09-01 14:32:55 xq we need more ziguanas in here!
2020-09-01 14:35:41 felix I was thinking about that earlier today.
2020-09-01 14:36:14 dkibi xq: companion_cube infected me
2020-09-01 14:36:37 sandra Making monsters weaker on the fly is haram, Felix! (That's why I'm eagerly reading on)
2020-09-01 14:37:12 xq dkibi, companion_cube: i wonder where phd is …
2020-09-01 14:37:14 sandra I don't like fudging. My friend Vincent wrote this blog post: http://lumpley.com/index.php/anyway/thread/360
2020-09-01 14:37:43 felix Wait, I'm confused now. :P
2020-09-01 14:38:03 sandra Me too, I might need ta eat something
2020-09-01 14:38:07 sandra I'm reading Battles & Balances
2020-09-01 14:38:25 sandra And you're saying that in tabletop RPGs sometimes the DM can fudge to make a monster weaker on the fly
2020-09-01 14:38:35 sandra You're neutrally describing a common practice
2020-09-01 14:38:38 felix Glad you like it! And yes, I do.
2020-09-01 14:38:55 sandra And I was just kibitzing that I don't enjoy that particular practice :)
2020-09-01 14:39:02 felix Oh, okay!
2020-09-01 14:39:24 felix Your friend's blog post however assumes what people want from an RPG.
2020-09-01 14:39:45 sandra An assumption I'm also onboard with♥
2020-09-01 14:40:08 felix Fair enough, but it varies a lot across the hobby.
2020-09-01 14:40:27 sandra For the potions, if you quaff a similar one it says it deals 1d4+1 damage: does that mean to yourself, or?
2020-09-01 14:40:33 sandra Or to every near-by standing skeleton
2020-09-01 14:41:07 felix To yourself. That's the whole point, overdosing has consequences.
2020-09-01 14:42:33 sandra I was playing a rogue-style game called Alchemical Dungeons where it was the nearbymonsters that got burninated so that's why I asked for the clarification—the "but" in the "but deals 1d4+1" clued me in that it might work a little bit differently in B&B
2020-09-01 14:43:19 felix I'll have to look it up.
2020-09-01 14:43:46 sandra Naw, if ya wanna add the "to yourself" or not is up to you. I trust your editing instincts
2020-09-01 14:44:11 felix I mean the game. But thanks for pointing it out!
2020-09-01 14:46:55 sandra I got on Gemini yesterday and on Fediverse today (there is a CLI client!) and it's making me realize how happy I am that gemspace doesn't have likes and favorites because they can easily get to my head I think
2020-09-01 14:47:38 epoch I tried to build kristall. Got farther than last time.
2020-09-01 14:48:14 xq epoch: where are the problems now?
2020-09-01 14:48:26 epoch $ qmake ../src/kristall.pro
2020-09-01 14:48:27 epoch Project ERROR: Unknown module(s) in QT: multimedia multimediawidgets
2020-09-01 14:48:31 xq ah, well
2020-09-01 14:48:31 swift i had no luck in building kristall (on macOS)
2020-09-01 14:48:35 xq install multimedia modules :D
2020-09-01 14:48:58 felix Oh yeah, toot isn't half bad for its age.
2020-09-01 14:49:11 sandra I sent a patch to it today!
2020-09-01 14:49:13 epoch well, yeah, but, from where?
2020-09-01 14:49:48 felix And someone was criticizing likes on Neocities today.
2020-09-01 14:50:03 felix Made me think how most social networks have them, except DreamWidth.
2020-09-01 14:50:05 xq epoch: from your distro package manager :D
2020-09-01 14:50:10 sandra It's not that I don't like getting likes, it's that I like it a little too much
2020-09-01 14:50:16 felix :D
2020-09-01 14:50:59 epoch "libqt5multimedia5 is already the newest version (5.14.2-2)."
2020-09-01 14:51:19 xq which distro?
2020-09-01 14:51:22 epoch debian
2020-09-01 14:51:27 epoch sid
2020-09-01 14:51:28 xq libqt5multimedia5-dev?
2020-09-01 14:51:35 epoch already tried that.
2020-09-01 14:51:40 xq https://github.com/MasterQ32/kristall/blob/master/BUILDING.md#notes-for-ubuntu
2020-09-01 14:51:46 xq maybe your deb is just too old? :D
2020-09-01 14:51:58 xq ah no
2020-09-01 14:52:03 xq sid sounds pretty new after googling :D
2020-09-01 14:52:10 epoch maybe nobody has made a -dev package for sid yet?
2020-09-01 14:52:28 xq hmm
2020-09-01 14:53:13 epoch https://packages.debian.org/sid/qtmultimedia5-dev ?
2020-09-01 14:53:31 sandra Wow, no lib!
2020-09-01 14:53:40 epoch or 5 after the qt
2020-09-01 14:54:17 epoch qmake is happy now
2020-09-01 14:55:51 epoch in a `make` atm
2020-09-01 14:55:59 felix Fingers crossed!
2020-09-01 14:56:15 felix I've just been using the AppImage. >.>
2020-09-01 14:57:08 sandra felix: Did you mean that toot is young or that it is old when you wrote "for its age"?
2020-09-01 14:57:46 felix toot hasn't been updated in a couple of years, and it's falling behind.
2020-09-01 14:58:46 sandra Oh I talked to the guy about that today
2020-09-01 14:59:10 felix But it's not like I post polls more than once in a blue moon.
2020-09-01 14:59:12 sandra He's setting up shop on sr.ht
2020-09-01 14:59:17 felix Oh? Good to hear!
2020-09-01 14:59:22 felix Everyone is, as of late.
2020-09-01 14:59:30 sandra I'm not gonna though
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2020-09-01 14:59:51 sandra https://lists.sr.ht/~ihabunek/toot-discuss/patches/13020 ← I sent this♥
2020-09-01 15:00:03 sandra Smallest patch in history :D
2020-09-01 15:00:18 sandra Oh I see now that he has applied it
2020-09-01 15:00:29 xq sandra: i did smaller patches :D
2020-09-01 15:00:39 xq i think my smallest one was changing a single character and fixing a memory bug with it :D
2020-09-01 15:01:40 epoch kristall runs
2020-09-01 15:01:45 xq \o/
2020-09-01 15:02:02 felix Congrats!
2020-09-01 15:02:29 sandra Ken Thompson once said "One of my most productive days was throwing away 1,000 lines of code" ♥ but that's a big delta even if it's a small, uh, even if it's a negative… Hmm I guess the patch = diff = delta wouldn't be negative
2020-09-01 15:03:12 xq yeah, deleting code is always very productive and good-feeling
2020-09-01 15:03:23 xq (if that last word thingy is even legal in english, i don#t care)
2020-09-01 15:04:47 felix It gets the point across.
2020-09-01 15:05:32 felix I might set up shop on TildeGit, but eh. Forges are so much fuss.
2020-09-01 15:05:50 felix It's hard to start over, and I'm wary of it. Also weary.
2020-09-01 15:07:43 sandra If peeps want my repos I have them and they can pull and clone to their hearts content. And if they have issues or patches, I have email.
2020-09-01 15:20:06 felix Anyway, glad to see I was wrong about toot.
2020-09-01 15:21:24 sandra I mean that doesn't mean that he'll make a release or anything
2020-09-01 15:21:36 sandra I popped into the IRC channel on freenode and he was there and replied to me right away
2020-09-01 15:21:44 sandra And pretty much hand-held me through writing that entire patch :)
2020-09-01 15:22:04 felix Awesome!
2020-09-01 15:25:26 @tomasino that's really a great experience
2020-09-01 15:25:43 @tomasino i like when people are helpful
2020-09-01 15:25:59 michel xq: we have a Dead Code Society at work
2020-09-01 15:26:15 michel You get a tshirt if you delete at least 1k lines
2020-09-01 15:26:22 xq nice!
2020-09-01 15:27:22 michel Sadly not enough to counterbalance people writing new code!
2020-09-01 15:27:24 michel We use A/B testing and experiments super aggressively and... are not that good at cleaning up afterwards
2020-09-01 15:28:49 dkibi I'm in a bit of a conflict with my boss, because I took our software and deleted a ton of broken stuff (certainly >1000 lines), but he says that he doesn't want things to get lost
2020-09-01 15:28:59 dkibi I don't know why he's not happy with it being in the git history
2020-09-01 15:29:07 login oh lol
2020-09-01 15:29:19 login he doesnt know git
2020-09-01 15:30:12 sandra :D
2020-09-01 15:30:39 sandra Simplifying the codebase is a good thing dkibi
2020-09-01 15:30:51 sandra Your boss amuses me, write more about his shenanigans please♥
2020-09-01 15:30:51 companion_cube dkibi: moving to C++ yet? :p
2020-09-01 15:31:02 dkibi he does, I think he just underestimates the negative impact having this cruft arround yet
2020-09-01 15:31:07 dkibi companion_cube: xD
2020-09-01 15:31:17 acdw hallo
2020-09-01 15:31:24 felix Hey, hey.
2020-09-01 15:31:56 companion_cube do it for the RAII!
2020-09-01 15:32:18 dkibi companion_cube: xD
2020-09-01 15:32:24 dkibi why not Zig :P
2020-09-01 15:32:39 companion_cube tbh: C++ is easier to add incrementally, I think
2020-09-01 15:32:42 acdw elisp
2020-09-01 15:32:54 companion_cube first, refactor until it compiles in both C and C++, then start adding C++ stuff
2020-09-01 15:33:00 dkibi TDAG new = DAG_dup(DAG_eq(a, b)); defer DAG_free(new); would be amazing
2020-09-01 15:33:12 dkibi yeah
2020-09-01 15:33:45 companion_cube agreed on the defer, RAII is nice too
2020-09-01 15:35:00 felix Proof that manual memory management doesn't have to be hard.
2020-09-01 15:35:22 sandra It's not that it's hard, it's that it's dangerous if you do mess things up
2020-09-01 15:35:53 felix With RAII it's a lot harder.
2020-09-01 15:36:07 companion_cube felix: well you can still forget to `defer`
2020-09-01 15:36:12 felix And with move semantics you need the heap a lot less, too.
2020-09-01 15:36:17 sandra Yeah, I don't understand the line that dkibi just posted or even what language that is
2020-09-01 15:36:35 companion_cube RAII works great when you have nested stuff though, like a Vec of Vec
2020-09-01 15:36:41 companion_cube sandra: it's ziglang.org/
2020-09-01 15:36:59 dkibi sandra: yeah it doesn't translate well since it's specific stuff from the project I work on where companion_cube has context
2020-09-01 15:37:09 sandra Oh, for great justice!
2020-09-01 15:37:28 companion_cube is that from a comic?
2020-09-01 15:37:29 ⚡ xq helps promting zig as well. People, use zig!
2020-09-01 15:37:33 dkibi it's essentially C with a made up defer keyword (stolen from Zig). it executes code as soon as the current scope ends
2020-09-01 15:38:04 dkibi we have a big reference counted datastrcuture (DAG) which has DAG_dup to increase the reference count and DAG_free to decrease it
2020-09-01 15:38:08 felix Like D's scope guards then.
2020-09-01 15:39:08 sandra companion_cube: It's from a video game, they say "For great justice, take off every ZIG"
2020-09-01 15:39:22 sandra A zig is a type of space ship in that game
2020-09-01 15:39:58 companion_cube oh it's a game? :o
2020-09-01 15:40:14 companion_cube felix: pretty much
2020-09-01 15:40:26 xq companion_cube: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_your_base_are_belong_to_us
2020-09-01 15:40:30 companion_cube zig has a lot of similarities to D, even though andrewk doesn't want to admit it :p
2020-09-01 15:40:52 companion_cube hu, that game
2020-09-01 15:41:01 xq exactly :D
2020-09-01 15:41:36 michel Zig looks nice. I wonder if C/C++ will ever get replaced though
2020-09-01 15:41:57 xq michel: zig is the first language where i think it might actually replace C
2020-09-01 15:42:04 felix That's hard. They're just too well suited for their task.
2020-09-01 15:42:07 companion_cube or eat a part of its pie, more realistically
2020-09-01 15:42:40 felix People seem to think Rust has a chance lately.
2020-09-01 15:42:54 michel We need something simple enough to bootstrap - guix is doing a neat job there. They can bootstrap all the way to recent GCC starting with a tiny base of blobs
2020-09-01 15:42:57 companion_cube for C++, yeah, a bit
2020-09-01 15:43:15 sandra Mozilla fired all the Rust :( and while Agate compiled fine on my desktop, it wouldn't compile on my server (slightly older Debian)
2020-09-01 15:43:19 michel Not sure how easy it is to bootstrap Rust. I suspect it's too complex
2020-09-01 15:43:23 sandra I like Rust, though.
2020-09-01 15:43:33 michel sandra: me too
2020-09-01 15:43:44 companion_cube sandra: good thing rust is used and developped outside of mozilla!
2020-09-01 15:44:20 michel Dropbox and FB use rust, at least
2020-09-01 15:45:05 dkibi I'm quite happy how divierse the programing languages used by gemini related projects are
2020-09-01 15:45:21 felix Really? Most seem to be in Go, Rust and Python.
2020-09-01 15:46:22 xq there's a zig client! :D
2020-09-01 15:46:34 felix Oh? Cool!
2020-09-01 15:46:39 griffin There is also at least one server and client in Racket :P
2020-09-01 15:46:43 dkibi Kristall uses C++, geminaut C#
2020-09-01 15:47:02 dkibi wasn't there a Prolog server announced the other day?
2020-09-01 15:47:05 xq http://github.com/masterQ32/gurl
2020-09-01 15:47:08 xq it's outdated though
2020-09-01 15:47:14 xq and yeah that prolog server was impressiv a.f.
2020-09-01 15:47:38 companion_cube felix: that's already quite diverse :p
2020-09-01 15:48:04 companion_cube maybe there could be some jvm stuff in there, but well
2020-09-01 15:50:20 felix That's all right, there's some stuff in shell script. :P
2020-09-01 15:51:21 xq there's even tomasino+my server written in shell with ncat :D
2020-09-01 15:53:30 felix Gemini has a lot of people excited. And it's so easy to work with.
2020-09-01 15:54:12 companion_cube TLS excepted, but yes :p
2020-09-01 15:54:38 epoch I use stunnel and a shell-script as my gemini server
2020-09-01 15:54:55 epoch cuz stunnel can do the "required" SNI
2020-09-01 15:55:40 felix Yeah, TLS is a bit of a hurdle.
2020-09-01 15:56:57 felix Good thing I'm focusing on gemtext for now.
2020-09-01 15:57:37 felix Wait a minute... Can xinetd handle TLS?
2020-09-01 15:58:32 epoch it might be able to do TLS, but doubt SNI
2020-09-01 15:59:32 felix Oh well.
2020-09-01 15:59:37 epoch you can have xinetd run stunnel, but then the stunnel can't do SNI
2020-09-01 16:01:38 companion_cube is TLS the reason why all the gemini pages load slowly for me, btw?
2020-09-01 16:01:54 companion_cube cause it seems like it should load instantly otherwise…
2020-09-01 16:03:04 felix If you're connecting to an older server from a newer machine...
2020-09-01 16:03:20 felix Then you'll notice this delay in everything: SSH, you name it.
2020-09-01 16:03:57 companion_cube idk, a simple http server is really fast
2020-09-01 16:04:14 felix I don't know enough about it, some sort of protocol negotiation?
2020-09-01 16:04:25 companion_cube I guess it's to validate certificates
2020-09-01 16:04:33 epoch I think there's at least an extra round trip to setup the crypto. I don't remember specifics.
2020-09-01 16:04:40 felix Because if you try from a machine as old as the server, it's instant.
2020-09-01 16:05:20 griffin TLS is a 4 way handshake, but it shouldn't take noticeably longer to establish a connection
2020-09-01 16:05:38 companion_cube ok, maybe it's that people use old machines to host gemini stuff indeed
2020-09-01 16:06:38 felix ctrl-c.club definitely is. And I've seen the same with my ancient Mageia 4.
2020-09-01 16:06:52 felix A modern Debian 10 takes its time connecting to either.
2020-09-01 16:07:06 acdw i wonder if there's any VPS providers out there that host exclusively on ancient hardware
2020-09-01 16:07:13 felix Puppy Linux 6.3.5 "Slacko" connects right away.
2020-09-01 16:07:21 acdw "we have racks of servers we found in an abandoned warehouse ten years ago"
2020-09-01 16:07:25 companion_cube felix: I don't see why the age of the client should matter
2020-09-01 16:07:27 felix :D
2020-09-01 16:07:33 acdw "the lights keep blinking so ... yeah, they're good"
2020-09-01 16:07:50 felix companion_cube: Dunno, but it's obviously happening.
2020-09-01 16:08:23 felix And if you try the other way around, from the old machine to a new one...
2020-09-01 16:08:28 felix It doesn't work at all.
2020-09-01 16:09:47 epoch my gemini site loads slow because it is on a raspi and written in shell script
2020-09-01 16:10:00 acdw epoch: can you share that shell script? does it do routing?
2020-09-01 16:10:01 epoch like, a raspi 1, not a raspi 4 or whatever they have now.
2020-09-01 16:10:06 acdw oh the og
2020-09-01 16:10:22 epoch what do you mean by routing?
2020-09-01 16:10:50 epoch the shell-script?
2020-09-01 16:10:54 epoch or, the raspi?
2020-09-01 16:13:57 acdw the shell script
2020-09-01 16:14:59 acdw like, on tomasino's server, it just serves up the one page. At some point I want to figure out routing, like a full bash server --- it says "oh you want example.com/page1, I'll giveyou that"
2020-09-01 16:15:16 epoch oh. it can do that.
2020-09-01 16:15:18 epoch :)
2020-09-01 16:15:29 epoch it can do vhosts and proxying
2020-09-01 16:15:50 acdw oh rad
2020-09-01 16:15:52 acdw i'd love to see it!
2020-09-01 16:16:59 epoch hrm. looks like some of my network stuff is borked
2020-09-01 16:18:47 epoch https://github.com/kkabrams/shell-daemons/blob/master/geminid
2020-09-01 16:19:01 epoch it might be a bit ugly
2020-09-01 16:19:41 epoch and I had to change a bit of stunnel's source to get the SSL_TLS_SNI variable into the environment.
2020-09-01 16:22:34 acdw aw yeah
2020-09-01 16:22:58 acdw glorious
2020-09-01 16:23:21 acdw wait I thought geminid was in ... C? Or is this *your* geminid?
2020-09-01 16:23:25 felix I'm glad there are nice people hosting servers for the rest of us.
2020-09-01 16:23:34 epoch this is just mine
2020-09-01 16:23:47 epoch I don't have to worry about naming conflicts if I don't intend to share
2020-09-01 16:24:16 acdw oh okay cool. do you mind if i use something like this for an as-yet non-provisioned server?
2020-09-01 16:24:47 epoch ALL CODE IS COPYRIGHT ME. ONLY A NO GOOD PIRATE WOULD USE MY CODE WITHOUT PERMISSION
2020-09-01 16:25:06 epoch copyright is a spook. go ahead.
2020-09-01 16:25:53 acdw :D thans
2020-09-01 16:25:57 acdw s/thans/thanks
2020-09-01 16:26:39 epoch if you run into uricut, that's one of my programs... mime-type is also one of mine.. and normalpath
2020-09-01 16:26:52 acdw haha i was kinda figureing
2020-09-01 16:26:54 epoch mime-type and normalpath should be included
2020-09-01 16:27:03 epoch uricut is in my uritools repo
2020-09-01 16:27:05 acdw now i just have to figure out stunnel
2020-09-01 16:27:19 acdw oh holy moly you're like ... a shell wizard
2020-09-01 16:27:20 epoch https://github.com/kkabrams/shell-daemons/blob/master/config-examples/stunnel.conf wat?
2020-09-01 16:32:47 acdw hehe yes
2020-09-01 16:37:06 epoch my finger daemon signs its responses :)
2020-09-01 16:37:49 ⚡ epoch plays on the beach
2020-09-01 16:37:55 epoch (shells)
2020-09-01 16:37:59 felix :D
2020-09-01 16:43:38 epoch for some reason a bunch of services on my raspi aren't working
2020-09-01 16:44:13 epoch remotely
2020-09-01 16:45:44 epoch like, from yourtilde I can connect to my httpd but not my finger daemon
2020-09-01 16:46:19 acdw omg epoch just got that joke
2020-09-01 16:46:36 acdw also i can't believe i didn't see that stunnel config
2020-09-01 16:46:51 acdw yeah i'm bookmarking this page
2020-09-01 16:48:15 epoch well, whenever I get it working, I have those daemons running on thebackupbox.net
2020-09-01 16:48:49 acdw aw work network blocks it :(
2020-09-01 16:49:14 epoch booo
2020-09-01 16:49:20 epoch based on IP or hostname?
2020-09-01 16:49:38 epoch try: hacking.allowed.org? (or if "hacking" is bad, cooking.allowed.org )
2020-09-01 16:51:10 ⚡ epoch messing with router config
2020-09-01 16:51:11 acdw nope
2020-09-01 16:51:38 acdw yeah it follows redirects or cnames or whatever allowed.org usees
2020-09-01 16:51:41 epoch have a shell account on a tilde that doesn't do TCPForward no ?
2020-09-01 16:52:03 acdw it's annoying b/c IT in my work is so not knowledgable in other ways
2020-09-01 16:52:07 acdw but with network ... it's locked
2020-09-01 16:52:17 epoch oh, yeah, I tried to have service names redirect to computer names
2020-09-01 16:52:18 acdw oh and ssh is blocked too
2020-09-01 16:53:15 epoch bbl
2020-09-01 16:53:18 epoch rl
2020-09-01 17:44:45 epoch I bet the reason I think my services aren't working is the shell I'm testing them from.
2020-09-01 17:44:51 epoch it probably has outbound filters
2020-09-01 17:45:47 epoch yep.
2020-09-01 17:46:01 epoch testing from somewhere else that I know isn't filtered and it works.
2020-09-01 17:47:12 epoch I'd gotten used to a network that wasn't clogged up with stupid firewall rules
2020-09-01 17:49:09 epoch anyway. I'm looking in the wrong places for bugs, so I should go to bed.
2020-09-01 17:49:12 epoch g'night
2020-09-01 17:50:30 ⚡ felix waves!
2020-09-01 17:50:32 acdw o/
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2020-09-01 19:44:51 makeworld makeworld.gq now has a nice wildcard 5-year EC cert!
2020-09-01 19:45:08 makeworld I noticed today that it had expired lol
2020-09-01 19:57:45 sandra Trying to install AV-98 because that was the one client I liked from the "kiosk" mode but cryptography, ansiwrap and av-98 end up in three separate virtualenvs. Oh Python, wherefore art thou :(
2020-09-01 20:01:54 sandra Not sure I want ansiwrap on second thought
2020-09-01 20:02:03 sandra It's the FONT-FAMILY of gemtext
2020-09-01 20:06:33 sandra AV-98 is awesome
2020-09-01 20:11:45 sandra It worx inside emacs too
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2020-09-01 21:30:28 @tomasino it is quite lovely
2020-09-01 21:41:19 dkibi otrn.org finally also has a new cert :P only for 3 years though
2020-09-01 21:41:43 makeworld Yeah, idk if 5 years was too much
2020-09-01 21:41:50 makeworld Feels a bit long, but we'll see what happens I guess
2020-09-01 21:44:48 dkibi yeah
2020-09-01 22:04:42 @tomasino well that episode of Superman was exceptionally racist
2020-09-01 22:04:43 @tomasino wowza
2020-09-01 22:05:33 djph oh?
2020-09-01 22:05:39 djph modern Superman, or the old stuff?
2020-09-01 22:06:28 @tomasino old stuff
2020-09-01 22:06:34 @tomasino 1950s
2020-09-01 22:06:51 @tomasino gemini://tilde.team/~tomasino/
2020-09-01 22:07:00 @tomasino i've got a few essays on it here
2020-09-01 22:33:43 CommunistWolf https://www.zdnet.com/article/mozilla-research-browsing-histories-are-unique-enough-to-reliably-identify-users/
2020-09-01 22:43:30 companion_cube in what world do advertisers get a look at my browser history? :s
2020-09-01 22:53:08 makeworld > Between January 2009 and May 2011, researchers asked users to access an online test site where they used some clever CSS code to determine which websites from a predefined list of 6,000 domains users had visited.
2020-09-01 22:55:16 makeworld It used this bug: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=147777
2020-09-01 22:56:24 makeworld I think the point is that if a future bug occurred, or if an entity was able to capture lots of traffic (cough Google cough), they'd be able to easily identify users
2020-09-01 22:57:16 makeworld I've been getting excited about the prospect of Amfora being able to render Markdown
2020-09-01 22:57:45 makeworld I think that'll be the feature I want to focus on next, after feeds. Although certificates would also be very nice
2020-09-01 22:58:48 kevinsan tomasino, great idea of commentary on old tv shows. nicely done too - i love the whole shining light on bullshit thing.
2020-09-01 23:44:39 michel tomasino: going to give your essays a read. that reminds me that I haven't set up Elpher on this machine :p
2020-09-01 23:45:03 @tomasino Thanks!
2020-09-01 23:47:13 michel anyone using Elpher here? I need to seriously look at selectively sync-ing my dotfiles. too used to giant browser platforms that provide sync services (eugh)
2020-09-01 23:50:20 kevinsan ha, I was just pondering Brechtian theatre vs post-war American tv, and looked up Brecht on Wikipedia. I quote: "he was surveilled by the FBI and subpoenaed by the House Un-American Activities Committee"
2020-09-01 23:57:05 @tomasino Hah
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2020-09-02 00:18:59 michel kevinsan: ah, didn't realize he ever lived in the US. didn't realize HUAC was already active during ww2
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2020-09-02 00:34:09 michel tomasino: reading your Superman essays now. I'm in the same boat re: recent TV shows -- I find myself watching Japanese food-related TV series instead. Midnight Diner and Samurai Gourmet are great!
2020-09-02 00:34:38 @tomasino fantastic!
2020-09-02 00:59:55 kevinsan michel, I didn't even know HUAC was a thing! I suppose we have had similar concepts here in the UK, they're just tacit rather than overt. Perhaps Americans are just plain more honest.
2020-09-02 01:04:39 kline kevinsan: we dont really
2020-09-02 01:05:26 kline the huac was mostly considered an aberration
2020-09-02 01:10:55 kline the closest thing we have (the intelligence and security committee, notably in the news a month back over the russia report) is the closest, being the same internal-security body drawn from the political class, but the UK has never really needed to draw on such a body to persecute individuals, with most of the historical persecution like the huac being arranged by unions etc
2020-09-02 01:12:07 kline not that unions are inherently bad, but certainly the british unions had a lot of power to decide in- and out-groups and control firmly who would be admitted to unions that could make careers workable or untenable
2020-09-02 01:22:37 kevinsan today, none of it is required because twitter storms :) nothing like a bunch of IP datagrams to ruin a career
2020-09-02 01:24:02 kline yeah, the unions are nominally a representative collective of your peers in the same way that you can be outcast from your own sliver of society on a wave of outrage that may or may not be true
2020-09-02 01:24:35 kline this is not ideal, but its better than politicians deciding this in secret
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2020-09-02 03:24:12 ℹ Mode #gemini [+qo tiwesdaeg tiwesdaeg] by ChanServ
2020-09-02 05:10:05 epoch text/gemini --> man-page ?
2020-09-02 05:10:07 epoch hrm...
2020-09-02 05:10:28 sandra epoch: pandoc maybe?
2020-09-02 05:10:49 epoch I was thinking of just doing it myself.
2020-09-02 05:11:12 epoch I know I have code that reads text/gemini somewhere and converts it to html
2020-09-02 05:11:18 sandra I made a man page from one of my poems
2020-09-02 05:11:21 epoch to man-page should be easiser.
2020-09-02 05:12:15 epoch yeah, I have a gemini2html.c
2020-09-02 05:12:22 ⚡ epoch cp and rename
2020-09-02 05:13:00 sandra gemini://idiomdrottning.org/octobersnow.5.gz
2020-09-02 05:14:04 epoch 51 Notfound?
2020-09-02 05:14:07 epoch hrm.
2020-09-02 05:14:17 sandra Maybe mistype on my part
2020-09-02 05:14:51 epoch yeah.
2020-09-02 05:14:55 epoch there's a - before snow
2020-09-02 05:15:08 epoch oh.
2020-09-02 05:15:16 epoch the - is in a file that isn't a man-page
2020-09-02 05:16:03 sandra No, I had uploaded it to the wrong host
2020-09-02 05:16:32 sandra Now it should be there
2020-09-02 05:16:48 sandra That's where the typo was :/
2020-09-02 05:17:29 ⚡ epoch gemini-get gemini://idiomdrottning.org/octobersnow.5.gz | tail -n+2 | zcat | man /dev/stdin
2020-09-02 05:19:29 sandra Did it work
2020-09-02 05:22:28 epoch yeah
2020-09-02 05:23:12 sandra Much appreciated
2020-09-02 05:23:17 sandra I love man pages
2020-09-02 05:25:33 epoch I'd like to find a pager that still works with sixels.
2020-09-02 05:26:22 epoch I've been just using urxvt set to not-exit after its program closes looking through its scrollback
2020-09-02 05:33:00 sandra I love urxvt. Some people over at #suckless (on OFTC, not tilde.chat) made their own terminal called st but I've been happy with urxvt
2020-09-02 05:36:47 login st is sublime text though
2020-09-02 05:39:11 epoch st in my head is suckless terminal
2020-09-02 05:39:33 epoch who said the hardest problem in computers is naming things?
2020-09-02 05:39:42 sandra Is there a sublime text binary called st?
2020-09-02 05:52:51 epoch I've never used sublime text, only heard of it.
2020-09-02 05:57:44 sandra I heard an editor had that name
2020-09-02 06:44:25 login it's an 80-dollar text editor with 3 years of updates
2020-09-02 06:44:53 login after that, any further updates require an upgrade (which is cheaper than 80 dollars)
2020-09-02 06:46:00 sandra Is it still DFSG free though? I mean it'd be hard to maintain that price if anyone could fork
2020-09-02 06:59:42 login no, it's proprietary
2020-09-02 06:59:44 login no source code
2020-09-02 07:00:30 login why is the MIT licence not DFSG?
2020-09-02 07:01:44 sandra It is, except the University of Washington's version of it
2020-09-02 07:01:59 alex11 https://wiki.debian.org/DFSGLicenses it is
2020-09-02 07:02:26 sandra The University of Washington said that they intended for pine to be distributed XOR modified, not both
2020-09-02 07:02:53 sandra Which is a way to interpret the MIT license if you like being wrong, but, consequently Debian is sans Pine.
2020-09-02 07:03:49 sandra I do not personally enjoy or partake of the Sublime text editor, is my conclusion from the current conversation♥
2020-09-02 07:03:54 sandra ed ftw
2020-09-02 07:05:10 alex11 ed is the standard text editor
2020-09-02 07:07:51 sandra I have shell scripts, one named exf that quickly opens whatever file in the nearest emacs, and one other named ec that even spawns a new terminal frame of that emacs in the present terminal and edits the file, buuuut often enough I just wanna fix something quick and I use ed. Especially if I need to be another user (such as root, www-data or pleroma) ior I'm on another server.
2020-09-02 07:13:14 sandra I selected emacs over vi for kind of a dumb reason. I had switched to Unix (and clones) and dvorak at about the same time and emacs felt like it made sense with Control-P for "previous" etc while the hjkl was just wtf is this?! These days I've used enough vi-inspired programs to be kinda familiar with hjkl even on dvorak.
2020-09-02 07:13:14 sandra These days I have quite a bit of respect for vi and ex and the modal style of editing (I use modal on emacs too now). Vim specifically as an implementation I'm not too impressed by, but that's not the only editor in the vi/sam/acme/vis family.
2020-09-02 07:55:26 login What about their product sublime merge?
2020-09-02 07:55:32 login https://www.sublimehq.com/buy
2020-09-02 07:59:11 sandra I've had "learn magit" on my to-do–list for the longest time. Still using the vanilla git CLI with a lot of wrapper shell script to automate everyday things
2020-09-02 07:59:26 sandra But is Sublime Merge DFSG-free?
2020-09-02 07:59:29 alex11 oh i don't know if i'll ever touch emacs at this rate
2020-09-02 07:59:35 alex11 not because it's bad
2020-09-02 07:59:38 alex11 i'm just lazybones
2020-09-02 08:00:52 sandra I just started seeing every Emacs Lisp function as kind of the emacs system's equivalent of what's a command on Unix. But that you can compose, advice etc.
2020-09-02 08:01:26 sandra Like, it's unpossible to learn all of emacs. But a couple of functions? That might be fine
2020-09-02 08:03:27 alex11 same
2020-09-02 08:03:36 alex11 that's how i think of it too, i do want to learn org mode
2020-09-02 08:07:20 alex11 that said i'm very much not a programmer
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2020-09-02 12:33:48 login alex11: you can become
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2020-09-02 12:49:55 sandra Your time on Earth is precious. Be careful of picking up new endeavours. But I have found programming rewarding.
2020-09-02 12:52:07 idf I just made my first blog post on gemini
2020-09-02 12:52:57 makeworld 🎊
2020-09-02 12:53:16 felix Congrats!
2020-09-02 12:56:19 idf thanks!
2020-09-02 12:57:17 sandra Is it gonna be on CAPCOM, idf?
2020-09-02 12:57:28 idf uhh what's capcom
2020-09-02 12:58:17 idf i heard of it
2020-09-02 13:00:38 makeworld gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/capcom/
2020-09-02 13:00:41 sandra It's Solderpunk's list of Gemini blog posts
2020-09-02 13:00:49 sandra Or I think it's Solderpunk, could be some other punk
2020-09-02 13:00:54 makeworld idf: It's an aggregator. It's sort of like Gemini's homepage
2020-09-02 13:00:56 idf oh nice
2020-09-02 13:01:02 idf i will look at it
2020-09-02 13:01:08 makeworld sandra: It happens automatically, so I wouldn't really call it his list.
2020-09-02 13:01:31 makeworld idf: If you want to be on it, you need to create a gemlog feed and send the URL to Solderpunk by email.
2020-09-02 13:01:46 makeworld You can create a feed with gemfeed, if you have commandline skills
2020-09-02 13:01:52 makeworld https://tildegit.org/solderpunk/gemfeed
2020-09-02 13:02:17 makeworld pip3 install gemfeed
2020-09-02 13:02:19 idf cool thanks
2020-09-02 13:02:35 idf yeah CLI isn't really a problem for me
2020-09-02 13:08:34 makeworld Nice :)
2020-09-02 13:08:44 makeworld I setup gemfeed on a cron job
2020-09-02 13:09:07 makeworld It runs every hour, which is kinda overkill since I don't write blog posts that often, but at least it updates soon when I do write one
2020-09-02 13:09:10 makeworld Lol
2020-09-02 13:13:30 idf interesting
2020-09-02 13:16:28 felix There's also SpaceWalk, which just checks blog index pages for changes.
2020-09-02 13:16:44 felix So it can only show a list of recently updated blogs, not posts.
2020-09-02 13:16:59 felix But on the plus side doesn't rely on newsfeeds at all.
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2020-09-02 13:25:21 sandra It's easier to get on Spacewalk, for that reason
2020-09-02 13:27:49 sandra I need to do some scripting or similar b/C RN I have to check a bunch of different places, like CAPCOM, Fedi, email, atom... I need to write some wrappers that check all those for me in one go.
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2020-09-02 13:35:35 ⚡ felix nods
2020-09-02 13:41:29 admicos i just patched my mastodon instance to make gemini links proper links, i can share my patch if anyone's interested
2020-09-02 13:42:26 felix Nice!
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2020-09-02 13:43:30 felix Dun' have my own, but thanks! Good to know that's a thing.
2020-09-02 13:46:08 sandra For Pleroma the list of schemes is in the config
2020-09-02 13:47:05 felix That's good thinking.
2020-09-02 13:47:53 idf alright i made the feed and i mailed solderpunk
2020-09-02 13:50:45 idf comfy
2020-09-02 13:52:30 felix Good luck!
2020-09-02 13:53:32 idf thank you
2020-09-02 13:55:00 idf also i refactored the server a bit and soon i will finally add support for transient client certificates and client-certificate authentication
2020-09-02 13:55:21 idf good stuff
2020-09-02 13:56:54 felix Indeed!
2020-09-02 14:28:40 felix In unrelated news, I realized that making my viewer able to follow relative links would make it usable as a help system.
2020-09-02 14:29:20 felix Of course that alone is one deep rabbit hole, never mind networking.
2020-09-02 14:29:39 jan6 heh
2020-09-02 14:30:56 sandra Is there relative links on Gemini?
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2020-09-02 14:33:40 felix Of course! Isn't that how you normally write links in gemtext?
2020-09-02 14:34:10 felix The client turns them into absolute links for the server
2020-09-02 14:34:42 sandra I didn't know that. I wrote absolute links
2020-09-02 14:35:26 felix Well, huh. Guess that work while you don't change hosts.
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2020-09-02 14:40:20 sandra I don't enjoy writing gem text at all TBH because of the soft wrapping. I write hard wrapped and postprocess them to fix all links and make them soft wrapped
2020-09-02 14:40:50 djph sandra: you too?
2020-09-02 14:41:44 sandra :) do you feel the same way
2020-09-02 14:41:55 felix Sounds like you'd be happier writing gophermaps?
2020-09-02 14:42:25 djph 72 chars wide is the only way to write things
2020-09-02 14:42:57 admicos if you're using vim, check out the "goyo" plugin
2020-09-02 14:43:04 admicos i cannot write gemtext without it
2020-09-02 14:43:09 djph wazzat?
2020-09-02 14:43:16 admicos https://github.com/junegunn/goyo.vim
2020-09-02 14:43:28 admicos you can limit the width of your buffer and it pads the sides to center it
2020-09-02 14:44:01 djph or you can just hard-wrap at 72 characters
2020-09-02 14:44:06 djph which makes way more sense
2020-09-02 14:45:15 sandra Right, but I hope you don't hardwrap gemtext
2020-09-02 14:45:44 sandra I have some sections that are meant to be hardwrapped, poems and such, and they are marked up and processed accordingly
2020-09-02 14:45:44 felix You can hard-wrap gemtext, it will just look bad on small screens.
2020-09-02 14:46:13 felix But then again so does all that ASCII art on Gopher.
2020-09-02 14:46:23 felix Which is hard-wrapped by definition.
2020-09-02 14:47:20 sandra Publishing hardwrapped gemtext breaks the spec
2020-09-02 14:48:24 djph sandra: no, I have a post-processor that undoes that, and then launches it into gem... whatever. I'm bad with names, so I called it "orbit"
2020-09-02 14:48:34 felix Technically no, it doesn't, since linebreaks must be preserved.
2020-09-02 14:48:51 sandra djph: same!♥♥
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2020-09-02 14:49:46 felix You're just making it hard on people with small screens.
2020-09-02 14:49:56 sandra It de jure breaks the spec gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/docs/gemtext.gmi
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2020-09-02 14:50:39 sandra Nothing crashes or signals error, technically
2020-09-02 14:50:56 felix First of all that's the tutorial, not the spec.
2020-09-02 14:51:07 felix Second, it stresses that it's only the *preferred* way.
2020-09-02 14:52:36 sandra Spec, 5.4.1: https://gemini.circumlunar.space/docs/specification.html it's a SHOULD level requirement
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2020-09-02 14:56:04 felix "In order to take full advantage of this method of text formatting"
2020-09-02 14:57:09 sandra Can other people chime in here? I've exhausted my piece. We might be talking past each other with some sort of fundamental misunderstanding, IDK.
2020-09-02 14:57:24 felix And the paragraph above suggests that a client could, in fact, not soft-wrap lines.
2020-09-02 14:57:52 felix I'm just saying it's not some big boogeyman of a requirement.
2020-09-02 14:58:06 sandra Maybe we're getting hung up on some semantics trap as to what "breaks spec" means, or what a SHOULD level requirement is, or what "stresses that it's only the preferred" means
2020-09-02 14:58:07 felix If you don't like it, write your own way, it's not a disaster.
2020-09-02 14:58:23 felix Your lines will be ragged on small screens, that's all.
2020-09-02 14:58:31 felix It will still be fully valid gemtext.
2020-09-02 14:59:03 sandra The semantic contents of those lines would me misleading. https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2119
2020-09-02 14:59:12 felix I bet servers and clients already extend the spec in big and small ways.
2020-09-02 14:59:29 felix Maybe even contradict it in places.
2020-09-02 14:59:58 felix That's the way it goes. Practice wins out.
2020-09-02 15:01:02 sandra That bet I don't dispute
2020-09-02 15:01:58 sandra Just saying that de jure "valid" gemtext has softwrapped paragraphs.
2020-09-02 15:02:37 sandra And I could technically & practically & physically put hard-wrapped paragraph gmi-files up there and no-one is disputing that either
2020-09-02 15:03:03 sandra Don't worry, felix
2020-09-02 15:03:12 sandra I'm happy with the post processor
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2020-09-02 16:02:57 ⚡ felix waves!
2020-09-02 16:19:48 dkibi https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2020/09/02/remember-how-great-ascii-art-used-to-be-in-game-guides/
2020-09-02 16:26:17 felix :)
2020-09-02 16:30:48 felix And speaking of memories, I found something for my other capsule.
2020-09-02 16:37:13 felix Figured I might have just the right content lying around.
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2020-09-02 16:43:40 kevinsan dkibi, I own a book titled 'Senseless Acts of Beauty' - I've never read it (too academic), the title's enough for me :) ASCII art makes me think of this. Often beautiful.
2020-09-02 16:44:54 felix Yes, it is.
2020-09-02 16:45:09 felix Ended up not making any of my own, except with Figlet, but yes.
2020-09-02 16:48:33 dkibi oh
2020-09-02 16:48:40 dkibi yeah
2020-09-02 16:48:52 acdw loove ascii art!
2020-09-02 16:49:00 acdw been trying to get better at itt... but it's complictated!
2020-09-02 16:49:50 felix Keep going!
2020-09-02 16:51:03 acdw thanks :)
2020-09-02 16:51:31 acdw I kinda want to use artist-mode in emacs but i feel like that's cheating. .. i want to get good at like, notepad ascii art
2020-09-02 16:52:10 felix That's like saying it's cheating to use a fancy brush.
2020-09-02 16:52:57 acdw ha, maybe. well I feel like it's more like saying you won't really make great art by tracing -- since the characters feel verry personal
2020-09-02 16:53:01 kevinsan exactly - it's your design, choice of characters for overall effect that's important, not how you got them there.
2020-09-02 16:53:14 acdw like, the shapes of the characters are really important, which using artist-mode won't get me
2020-09-02 16:53:22 acdw I have used vim which works fairly well
2020-09-02 16:55:31 kevinsan acdw, do you start with rows of spaces and then just r the chars in?
2020-09-02 16:56:14 acdw yeah, only I use R
2020-09-02 16:56:50 acdw gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/users/acdw/2020-06-04-ascii-art-vim.gmi
2020-09-02 16:56:52 acdw ^ method
2020-09-02 17:00:02 kevinsan thanks, i must try my first ascii art creation!
2020-09-02 17:00:47 acdw good luck! omg there should be a ascii-art.club or something
2020-09-02 17:01:16 acdw ascii.art is *only* 828.10 lol
2020-09-02 17:04:37 acdw okay I'd love to hear input on these two vv small gemtext-format changes I'm thinking of putting on the ML
2020-09-02 17:04:44 acdw 1. section-break = `---`
2020-09-02 17:06:06 acdw 2. allow vv basic 'styling' on ``` blocks, treating them almost like "alternate-formatting" blocks
2020-09-02 17:06:50 acdw fancy clients could render --- as a big line across the page, and, say, ``` verse with proportional text
2020-09-02 17:07:06 acdw while simple clients would just keep them as-is
2020-09-02 17:07:23 acdw maybe it's too late to be bikeshedding syntax lol
2020-09-02 17:10:54 felix I'm very much in favor of ---
2020-09-02 17:11:10 acdw yeah I find myself writing that all the time
2020-09-02 17:11:12 felix I think it's in keeping with the design so far.
2020-09-02 17:11:33 felix And works very well if not handled by clients, too.
2020-09-02 17:11:51 epoch maybe clients could just decide to render page-break characters that way?
2020-09-02 17:12:11 acdw yep yep. and the ``` thing is really part of the (as yet undecided) ```-alt text thing
2020-09-02 17:12:22 acdw epoch: that could work -- what is it, ^L?
2020-09-02 17:12:24 epoch (or some other appropriate single-character that is usually whitespace?)
2020-09-02 17:12:27 epoch ^L yeah
2020-09-02 17:12:37 epoch end of record?
2020-09-02 17:12:37 acdw that's a pretty good idea actually ...
2020-09-02 17:12:55 epoch ^Ls are used in RFCs I think
2020-09-02 17:12:56 acdw i think emacs et al uses ^L already for that kind of thing, so ^L would be good
2020-09-02 17:13:11 acdw honestly more people should use ^L IMO
2020-09-02 17:13:29 acdw or I could just start doing §
2020-09-02 17:14:21 @tomasino acdw: next time try using virtualedit
2020-09-02 17:14:28 epoch I kind of still want some meaningful use for fragment IDs with gemtext
2020-09-02 17:14:30 @tomasino :help virtualedit
2020-09-02 17:14:34 acdw hehe tomasino I do use virtualedit!
2020-09-02 17:14:41 @tomasino :D
2020-09-02 17:14:47 acdw It's actually mentioned on the gmi page I linked
2020-09-02 17:14:52 acdw yeah virtualedit is bae
2020-09-02 17:15:01 acdw (for ascii text)
2020-09-02 17:15:06 @tomasino absolutely
2020-09-02 17:15:14 acdw i might actually want to re-install nvim on my laptop just to do ascii art
2020-09-02 17:18:54 felix :)
2020-09-02 17:19:35 felix The closest I've come has been with some text art. Wanna see?
2020-09-02 17:19:58 @tomasino acdw: https://github.com/jamestomasino/dotfiles-minimal/blob/master/.config/nvim/init.vim#L101-L107
2020-09-02 17:20:17 @tomasino :call AsciiMode() # kicks me into working with ascii art
2020-09-02 17:21:35 acdw oh yes, that's amazing!
2020-09-02 17:21:40 acdw felix: you know it!
2020-09-02 17:21:49 felix https://elekk.xyz/@notimetoplay/104796459677475158
2020-09-02 17:22:33 acdw nice! I like the colors and the spacing
2020-09-02 17:22:48 felix Thanks!
2020-09-02 17:23:04 acdw https://ttm.sh/QVo.txt
2020-09-02 17:23:07 acdw ^ that me
2020-09-02 17:23:31 @tomasino a lovely little place
2020-09-02 17:25:29 acdw :D
2020-09-02 17:27:20 acdw oh tomasino: that looks like a dope vimrc as well -- i've been so into emacs-config lately that I forgot how vimscript can be pretty chill
2020-09-02 17:29:40 felix Nice little piece!
2020-09-02 17:30:35 acdw thanks! it just ended up looking like a church lol
2020-09-02 17:30:42 acdw idk what that says about where my head is....
2020-09-02 17:32:18 @tomasino thanks, yeah. i like keeping my vim config a bit verbose and organized
2020-09-02 17:45:29 felix acdw: well, if an atheist can write fiction with religious themes...
2020-09-02 17:47:09 acdw felix heeh
2020-09-02 17:47:18 acdw tomasino: well it is a vision
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2020-09-02 18:09:53 michel felix: like Philip Pullman?
2020-09-02 18:10:15 felix I was thinking Asimov, but it's probably common enough.
2020-09-02 18:10:40 michel the best religious-themed fiction I've read, IMHO, are the slightly sacrilegious ones. like "The Last Temptation of Christ" that got its author excommunicated from the Greek Orthodox Church
2020-09-02 18:11:21 felix :D
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2020-09-02 20:59:10 kevinsan In the spec there's a sentence "Sending an absolute URL instead of only a path or selector is effectively equivalent to building in a HTTP "Host" header"
2020-09-02 20:59:24 kevinsan what is meant by 'selector' in this context?
2020-09-02 21:20:22 @tomasino ://moo.com/bananas
2020-09-02 21:20:25 @tomasino or just //
2020-09-02 21:20:29 @tomasino i forget how it's structured
2020-09-02 21:20:50 @tomasino i think it's //
2020-09-02 21:21:06 @tomasino whatever protocol you're on you'll stay on
2020-09-02 21:21:15 @tomasino that's how i read that exchange, anyway
2020-09-02 21:22:02 @tomasino i think i'm doing those on cosmic, tbh
2020-09-02 21:22:24 @tomasino i may just be doing absolute from root, though
2020-09-02 21:22:27 @tomasino i forget!
2020-09-02 21:33:32 kevinsan thanks. the only references to 'selector' in https://www.w3.org/Addressing/URL/url-spec.html were in the gopher section. i wonder if the word is a hangover from early ideas?
2020-09-02 21:33:54 kevinsan in any case, what you say makes sense (it's // by the way, the : is tied to the scheme)
2020-09-02 21:35:50 kevinsan to pedant myself - actually it's tied to neither, it's a separator!
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2020-09-03 12:08:22 vee Hi everyone o/ I have a small new GUS feature to share. Mostly due to the fact that we have over 200 hosts now (eek!), I'm having a harder time spotting what's new. So I made a GUS page for it: gemini://gus.guru/newest-hosts
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2020-09-03 13:02:09 @tomasino woo
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2020-09-03 13:04:49 lukee hi vee
2020-09-03 13:04:56 lukee nice new feature for GUS!
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2020-09-03 13:37:56 thewetcrab Hi tomasino are you free to talk for a moment?
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2020-09-03 14:22:15 @tomasino Just finishing at the pool
2020-09-03 14:22:18 @tomasino I'll be home soon
2020-09-03 14:23:21 thewetcrab Thank you, please give me a shout when you get home. Hope you are enjoying your swim :)
2020-09-03 14:36:06 @tomasino i'm back!
2020-09-03 14:36:09 @tomasino what's up
2020-09-03 14:36:42 xfnw hi tomasino
2020-09-03 14:37:03 @tomasino hola
2020-09-03 14:37:17 xfnw is tomasino a tomato?
2020-09-03 14:37:18 @tomasino i bought a "new" office chair yesterday at the second hand store
2020-09-03 14:37:28 @tomasino it was $12 and it's working out well so far
2020-09-03 14:37:45 thewetcrab Wow nice find, hope it is comfortable for you.
2020-09-03 14:37:55 thewetcrab I need an ergonomic chair before my back stops working!
2020-09-03 14:38:22 @tomasino yeah, good so far. I was using a metal kitchen chair with a thin padding on it before this, but that meant we only had 3 chairs in the kitchen
2020-09-03 14:38:35 @tomasino this one is more padded underneath and behind and can spin
2020-09-03 14:38:42 @tomasino no arms, thank god. I hate arm rests
2020-09-03 14:39:42 ⚡ xfnw spins tomasino
2020-09-03 14:40:03 ⚡ tomasino is spun
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2020-09-03 14:43:42 felix thewetcrab: until you can get a good chair, reduce your computer time.
2020-09-03 14:43:58 felix One hour daily makes a huge difference. I couldn't believe how much.
2020-09-03 14:44:46 felix Kinda having the same problem here, see. Was planning to buy one.
2020-09-03 14:44:54 ⚡ xfnw places tomasino onto a centrifuge
2020-09-03 14:47:02 thewetcrab I hate it when arm rests catch on the desk and prevent you from sitting close to the desk!
2020-09-03 14:47:43 @tomasino i don't mind armrests on a comfy chair, but they're useless on office chairs
2020-09-03 14:47:53 @tomasino you're inevitably sitting at a desk and will have your arms on it
2020-09-03 14:48:16 @tomasino so they're just there to squeeze your legs and block you sitting with a leg under you, or to pinch your arm
2020-09-03 14:48:19 @tomasino grrr
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2020-09-03 14:49:10 felix Welcome back!
2020-09-03 14:49:37 @tomasino :)
2020-09-03 15:19:56 michel tomasino: heh yes, back when I still have an office to work out of, I only notice my chair's armrests if they're set too high and got jammed under the desk after the cleaning people tidied up
2020-09-03 15:23:02 @tomasino i like to turn my chair sideways and treat it a bit like an chaise lounge at the desk sometimes
2020-09-03 15:23:09 @tomasino especially when watching videos
2020-09-03 15:26:28 lukee hi folks
2020-09-03 15:26:34 ⚡ felix waves!
2020-09-03 15:26:47 lukee just sent off a new shipment to a customer today - makes me happy
2020-09-03 15:26:56 felix Good work!
2020-09-03 15:27:33 lukee https://imgur.com/a/2QAdd9a
2020-09-03 15:32:10 felix That's beautiful!
2020-09-03 15:32:46 lukee thanks - its a welcome break from too much modern technology!
2020-09-03 15:33:16 felix The analog is underrated these days.
2020-09-03 15:34:16 kevinsan lukee, when you say shipment - did you *make* that?
2020-09-03 15:34:19 lukee take me back to the 1580s
2020-09-03 15:34:26 lukee kevinsan: yes
2020-09-03 15:34:48 kevinsan ok, i'm rarely truly impressed but...
2020-09-03 15:35:02 kevinsan do you play? do you have a recording of one being played?
2020-09-03 15:36:13 lukee there's a preview of one of my customers playing his CD on my site here
2020-09-03 15:36:14 lukee https://www.orlando-lutes.com/pages/hieber-60cm-6c-ash-beech-box
2020-09-03 15:36:58 lukee I play enough to know what to look out for when I'm making them, but I'm only an amateur player
2020-09-03 15:38:16 felix Lovely music.
2020-09-03 15:39:04 lukee its a wonderful instrument, particularly in the hands of a proper player
2020-09-03 15:39:40 felix In Romania they were the iconic instrument of a popular entertainer until roughly a century ago.
2020-09-03 15:41:45 lukee mostly the instrument died out in europe by 1800, but there was a revival in the 20thC
2020-09-03 15:44:10 felix I'll have to check, but over here it was likely an unbroken tradition.
2020-09-03 15:44:29 kevinsan stunning, lukee! what are the white strings wound with?
2020-09-03 15:46:03 lukee traditionally it would have been gut (sheep intestine) strings. Modern players often use polymer with a similar density. Some of the bass strings are overwound with copper
2020-09-03 15:47:11 lukee felix: are you are thinking of the mandolin, a smaller cousin of the lute, which is an unbroken playing tradition
2020-09-03 15:47:22 felix Nope.
2020-09-03 15:47:35 felix I mean lutes.
2020-09-03 15:48:06 felix They're even called the same.
2020-09-03 15:48:16 lukee there are also some folk lute variants like the Koboz/Cobza
2020-09-03 15:48:17 lukee https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobza
2020-09-03 15:48:35 felix That too. In fact those are still used.
2020-09-03 15:48:45 kevinsan my ears love resonance, the lute has such a measured resonant sound
2020-09-03 15:49:49 lukee it *was* Europe's favourite instrument for about 300 years
2020-09-03 15:51:15 felix Goes to show how close we all were, for all the wars and stuff.
2020-09-03 15:51:25 lukee felix: I'd be interested in any references to the popular entertainer you mention, played until a century ago ~1920s? If it was an unbroken tradition of playing the classical lute it would remarkable
2020-09-03 15:51:58 lukee would [be] remarkable
2020-09-03 15:52:53 felix Well, ours didn't sound the same. Not sure what that means.
2020-09-03 15:55:02 felix And I was wrong. The famous performer I was thinking of died in 1860!
2020-09-03 15:55:27 lukee still, thats still quite late - can you give a reference or name?
2020-09-03 15:57:21 felix Yes, actually. Took me a moment, Romanian Wikipedia is poorly linked, poorly indexed *and* contradicts itself: https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbu_Lăutaru
2020-09-03 16:01:56 felix That *is* a lute in the painting, isn't it? Can't be a cobza.
2020-09-03 16:02:45 felix I've seen those more often, they're handheld and look distinct.
2020-09-03 16:02:47 lukee no, it is a cobza. Which IS a member of the lute family to be sure, but it is one of the Eastern European folk variants
2020-09-03 16:03:08 lukee the clue is that it is very short necked
2020-09-03 16:03:22 felix That's odd then. Well, I've learned something.
2020-09-03 16:03:53 lukee its nice to see - thankyou
2020-09-03 16:04:10 felix Perhaps we borrowed the word, but the meaning shifted.
2020-09-03 16:04:45 lukee it is a kind of lute, so the meaning is correct at some level
2020-09-03 16:05:12 felix That would explain the difference in sound, too.
2020-09-03 16:05:44 lukee yes, it is played with a plectrum, more percussive and rhythmic
2020-09-03 16:06:29 lukee closer to the Oud. The wikipedia page above on the cobza is quite accurate I think
2020-09-03 16:07:52 felix Right, for the modern instrument. It's changed over time.
2020-09-03 16:08:16 felix The page you linked to shows the kind I'm familiar with.
2020-09-03 16:16:37 lukee this video, whilst slightly long for an intro gives a sort of Hungarian perspective on it
2020-09-03 16:16:38 lukee https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDRLJByRLsw
2020-09-03 16:19:21 felix All right, yeah, that's closer.
2020-09-03 16:22:06 felix Ah, it sounds like that because it's played in a small room.
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2020-09-03 17:00:51 michel lukee: that's super nice
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2020-09-03 17:07:01 felix :)
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2020-09-03 17:33:56 acdw eeey I'm like, super proud of a thing I wrote to post to gemlog.blue and wanted to crow about it: gemini://gemlog.blue/users/acdw/1599153646.gmi
2020-09-03 17:34:03 acdw (hope that's cool, also hey yall)
2020-09-03 17:44:23 felix Hello!
2020-09-03 17:45:10 felix That looks super-useful for Emacs users.
2020-09-03 17:51:17 acdw thanks!
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2020-09-03 21:42:02 WIGGER done
2020-09-03 21:42:55 WIGGER want banana get nanana
2020-09-03 21:43:05 WIGGER banana*
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2020-09-03 21:59:08 acdw who was that?!
2020-09-03 22:21:23 djph acdw: a bored troll?
2020-09-03 22:21:59 acdw lol I figured
2020-09-03 22:22:03 acdw with the nick and all
2020-09-03 22:22:09 acdw well that's my first of those
2020-09-03 22:46:30 kevinsan what is quite funny is that they corrected themselves. like it was going to clarify anything. lame even by troll standards :)
2020-09-03 22:47:16 djph trolls have standards?
2020-09-03 22:49:05 kevinsan they tend to feel like they operate on a whole different level to everyone else. which, in a way, they do.
2020-09-03 22:52:58 acdw ^facts
2020-09-03 22:53:07 acdw i mean, i love bananas
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2020-09-03 23:05:51 kevinsan fact: ripe bananas contain acetaldehyde, which is a migraine trigger.
2020-09-03 23:06:32 kevinsan i just had to choose between a green banana and a ripe banana. I hope I don't get a migraine.
2020-09-03 23:33:26 @tomasino mmm, ripe banana
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2020-09-04 00:36:37 kayw oh man, i had the perfect ripe banana
2020-09-04 00:46:32 kevinsan if it's migraines all round tomorrow, blame the troll. maybe that was the plan all along. hmmm, cunning!
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2020-09-04 01:32:52 kline truly playing the long game
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2020-09-04 15:13:39 ⚡ felix waves!
2020-09-04 15:14:19 calamitous Morning!
2020-09-04 15:15:07 thewetcrab Hello Felix,
2020-09-04 15:15:32 thewetcrab Good morning calamitous, what been happening in the world of gemini recently?
2020-09-04 15:16:10 thewetcrab Or let me know what personal gemini projects you have been working on :)
2020-09-04 15:18:18 xj9 gmgm
2020-09-04 15:19:17 felix Hello!
2020-09-04 15:20:10 felix Haven't updated my capsules much for the past couple of days.
2020-09-04 15:23:19 djph I'm gonna have to burn one and launch another :|
2020-09-04 15:27:07 felix Aw.
2020-09-04 15:28:54 thewetcrab What is your gem url felix ?
2020-09-04 15:30:06 felix I have two. gemini.ctrl-c.club/~nttp/ and felixp7.flounder.online
2020-09-04 15:30:09 felix How about you?
2020-09-04 15:30:47 thewetcrab No I haven't been able to succesfully set up a gemini server yet.
2020-09-04 15:31:16 thewetcrab I think xfnw was helping me with that at some point but we probably both got distracted by other things ^_^
2020-09-04 15:31:55 felix I'm relying on the kindness of strangers too. ;)
2020-09-04 15:32:02 thewetcrab I like the layout of ctrl-c club :)
2020-09-04 15:32:26 thewetcrab Yes I rely on the kindness of others to help with my selfhosting and linux goals :/
2020-09-04 15:32:41 sandra thewetcrab: I endorse that plan AF
2020-09-04 15:32:42 felix You mean the big homepage, or my little home there?
2020-09-04 15:33:05 sandra It makes no sense for everyone to go at it alone when these systems are designed to be multiuser systems
2020-09-04 15:33:15 thewetcrab This page - http://ctrl-c.club/
2020-09-04 15:33:26 thewetcrab sandra what do you mean?
2020-09-04 15:33:42 thewetcrab Are you saying that individuals shouldn't self host their services?
2020-09-04 15:34:20 sandra That's exactly what I'm saying. Small groups can band together and pool their efforts
2020-09-04 15:34:27 sandra I do self host
2020-09-04 15:34:35 sandra But it's a lot of work
2020-09-04 15:34:49 felix Also it's more fun together.
2020-09-04 15:35:13 felix And so many hosts are still very empty.
2020-09-04 15:35:17 thewetcrab What services do you self host sandra?
2020-09-04 15:35:50 thewetcrab Through reading various things I've been lead to believe you can't have 100% privacy if you are uploading your information to other peoples servers ........
2020-09-04 15:35:52 thewetcrab ?
2020-09-04 15:35:53 sandra Blog, wiki, calendar, gallery, Fedi, Gemini, email, atom feeds and Jabber.
2020-09-04 15:36:26 sandra One friend shares the email with me and another has a user account on my Fedi instance.
2020-09-04 15:36:40 thewetcrab Wow you sound like a very experienced user of linux and of selfhosting sandra :)
2020-09-04 15:36:46 sandra The calendaring/wiki is for my d&d group
2020-09-04 15:36:50 thewetcrab What do you use for your wiki?
2020-09-04 15:37:49 sandra Yeah, I've been at it since the ninenties. I have a dokuwik right now, switched to it a few years ago, it's a kinda crappy wiki but they have an amazing imagemap plugin that's great fpr maps. Also a markdown plugin
2020-09-04 15:37:56 sandra dokuwiki*
2020-09-04 15:39:11 sandra People should decentralize and use self-hostable stuff, but, ultimately it's better to do it in groups I think. I was part of a group of five at first, that fell apart and I started my own thing
2020-09-04 15:39:27 sandra I'm not good at cooperating
2020-09-04 15:40:00 felix It's hard to go at it alone even with decades of experience.
2020-09-04 15:40:16 felix After a while it starts to wear you out.
2020-09-04 15:40:17 sandra Oh yeah I forgot the d&d group we also have a jitsi videobridge that I host
2020-09-04 15:40:18 djph sandra: we had that, then we started coalescing into things that were good at the time, and now it's basically AOL all over again ...
2020-09-04 15:40:44 djph sandra: how well does that work for you? Also, behind NAT, or ?
2020-09-04 15:40:57 sandra I feel bad for listing off all this stuff because it comes across as bragging or w/e
2020-09-04 15:41:08 djph d&d?
2020-09-04 15:41:14 djph only if its 3e
2020-09-04 15:41:15 sandra None of that is nated
2020-09-04 15:41:30 djph ah, that's been giving me trouble like no tomorrow
2020-09-04 15:41:46 felix sandra: nah, good for you!
2020-09-04 15:42:02 djph but I'm too cheap to go buy a VPS just for jitsi-videobridge
2020-09-04 15:42:07 sandra ♥
2020-09-04 15:42:30 djph how's the quality though? tried it on their site and it seemed completely awful (as in needed a TON of bandwidth, and not nearly as smooth as zoom)
2020-09-04 15:42:33 sandra Yeah all of that stuff is on a VPS
2020-09-04 15:42:52 sandra I've never tried anything else but yes the quality is ass
2020-09-04 15:42:52 djph or maybe it's just my computer is potato
2020-09-04 15:43:01 felix And I already pay for two domain names and a shared host.
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2020-09-04 15:43:16 sandra It's fast, low-latency but blurry and tinny
2020-09-04 15:44:17 sandra Oh yeah, my git repos are also on that poor vps
2020-09-04 15:44:30 sandra Talk about eggs in a basket
2020-09-04 15:44:39 djph sandra: IKR :|
2020-09-04 15:45:10 sandra I'm on Debian with some custom nginx voodoo
2020-09-04 15:45:13 felix I'm using all these new opportunities to spread my stuff around a little, yeah.
2020-09-04 15:45:25 xj9 thewetcrab: you can't have 100% privacy if you communicate with others
2020-09-04 15:45:48 sandra They left
2020-09-04 15:46:03 xj9 oh well
2020-09-04 15:46:12 xj9 that's better for their privacy
2020-09-04 15:46:44 sandra They have a point. You'd need to trust the root user very much.
2020-09-04 15:46:57 djph shit, I don't trust root on my personal machines
2020-09-04 15:47:06 xj9 you also have to trust the vps provider
2020-09-04 15:47:11 xj9 sice they also have root
2020-09-04 15:47:16 sandra My co-admin is in my will, I've known him for decades
2020-09-04 15:47:21 djph always poking and prodding and updating boxes
2020-09-04 15:47:26 sandra Xj9 Yeah :(
2020-09-04 15:47:59 djph why can't root just leave well enough alone? noo, they get this crazy idea to make gemini capsules, and run a server here ... and adding domains and ...
2020-09-04 15:48:13 xj9 trust isn't avoidable
2020-09-04 15:48:16 sandra End to end, like gpg, is a must for the most secret emails
2020-09-04 15:48:35 felix And then you have to trust the other party.
2020-09-04 15:48:36 xj9 gpg has its share of issues
2020-09-04 15:48:57 sandra Right, the smime thing was a horrorshow
2020-09-04 15:49:14 xj9 lack of forward secrecy is a problem too
2020-09-04 15:51:02 sandra We used to be hosted in someone's closet but he got mad at usband pulled the plug randomly
2020-09-04 15:51:13 sandra That was 15 years ago. Lesson learned
2020-09-04 15:51:30 sandra s/usband/us and/
2020-09-04 15:52:47 felix :(
2020-09-04 15:52:53 sandra We deserved it, the admin team, but a lot of other users got bit. That whole site was an experiment in radical trust
2020-09-04 15:53:26 djph radical trust in the sense of some rando's PC in a closet?
2020-09-04 15:54:07 sandra Everyone responsible for different bits (domains, DNS, networking, hardware, coding [that was me and my roomie]) and no redundancy
2020-09-04 15:54:18 sandra Many points of failure
2020-09-04 15:54:42 sandra Anyone of those points could take the ball and leave and destroy everything
2020-09-04 15:54:45 djph ah
2020-09-04 15:55:54 sandra This all ended in mid 00s
2020-09-04 15:56:01 sandra We were so young
2020-09-04 15:56:06 epoch ?
2020-09-04 15:56:09 sandra I was the oldeat at like 25
2020-09-04 15:56:37 ⚡ epoch reads the /whole/ backlog
2020-09-04 15:56:38 felix :)
2020-09-04 15:56:44 sandra The internet was so different too. Brigading etc was more manageable.
2020-09-04 15:58:38 sandra My current site started in 09. It's all me, which... Uh, not sure how worthwhile it has been having to learn to do every thing myself
2020-09-04 15:59:03 sandra It's like one person doing all the positions on a ship
2020-09-04 16:00:17 sandra "I coulda been a contender!" Instead I'm reading RFCs and hacking conf files
2020-09-04 16:00:41 felix Heh.
2020-09-04 16:01:24 sandra My mom is the same way, growing up with her it was all autoexec.bat and config.sys
2020-09-04 16:01:34 felix Fun!
2020-09-04 16:01:44 sandra Sometimes very fun :)
2020-09-04 16:03:29 epoch < sandra> Everyone responsible for different bits (domains, DNS, networking, hardware, coding [that was me and my roomie]) and no redundancy
2020-09-04 16:03:31 epoch so, RAID-0?
2020-09-04 16:04:03 felix It's like in society, really. Can't live with each other, can't live without each other.
2020-09-04 16:05:19 felix Some people are doers and other are enablers, but we crush the former and humiliate the latter.
2020-09-04 16:05:21 sandra Similar to RAID-0 I guess
2020-09-04 16:06:43 sandra RE what D&D edition. I'm sorry but 3.0 is my least favorite of all time. But even that edition has some really great stuff unique to it so it's not like I can't see the appeal. We use a mashup of editions and clones. Right now a lot of 2e, 5e and RC stuff.
2020-09-04 16:07:15 epoch I've tried to just share the responsibilities of self-hosting in a more RAID-1 kind of way.
2020-09-04 16:07:58 felix How so?
2020-09-04 16:08:15 felix And yay, someone who remembers 2e.
2020-09-04 16:08:24 epoch multiple people with access to fix any of the things when they break.
2020-09-04 16:08:31 felix Oh, goodie!
2020-09-04 16:08:40 sandra My second-favorite edition is RC. B/X is also fantastic and if you get to count those two as one, that's fantastic. But I've got to admit I love 5e even though we've hacked it beyond recognition as 5e.
2020-09-04 16:09:14 sandra 2e has… Not great rules, but great content. Great encounter tables, great worlds…
2020-09-04 16:09:14 felix That's the spirit!
2020-09-04 16:09:25 sandra epoch: Yes, that's the way to do it
2020-09-04 16:09:32 felix And yes, yes it does. Oozes flavor.
2020-09-04 16:09:51 felix It makes sense. It has personality.
2020-09-04 16:10:35 sandra The rules for as bad as they are are very clearly & cleanly written
2020-09-04 16:11:04 sandra They just weren't good at the math part of making games
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2020-09-04 16:11:54 felix They're weird, quirky and complicated, but have charm.
2020-09-04 16:12:34 sandra The weather system in Golden Voyages has a tendency to very quickly spin out into never-ending hurricanes
2020-09-04 16:13:27 felix Yikes.
2020-09-04 16:13:28 sandra Uh... As just one example of a wonky subsystem
2020-09-04 16:13:37 kline sounds amazing
2020-09-04 16:13:39 sandra Not to get all reductionist and pick apart every subsystem
2020-09-04 16:13:53 sandra That's just one I spent extra effort on
2020-09-04 16:14:00 kline arkham horror has a terror level that this reminds me of
2020-09-04 16:14:06 sandra https://idiomdrottning.org/aq-golden-voyages-state-machine/ (this isn't on gemspace yet)
2020-09-04 16:14:37 felix kline: AD&D2 was a cultural phenomenon, and deserved it.
2020-09-04 16:14:41 kline the entire game is a race against increasingly hostile atmospherics, short campaigns where the weather system becomes a limiting/difficulty raising factor could be a giggle
2020-09-04 16:15:38 sandra The problem is that you spend a lot of effort determining what the weather is and then it spends all of the time in what was designed to be an outlier anyway
2020-09-04 16:16:05 sandra The weather system in Ghosts of Saltmarsh (for 5e) is better. Less effort and there can be magical storms and such. So more flavor
2020-09-04 16:20:08 felix Well, hindsight is 20/20.
2020-09-04 16:20:13 sandra ♥
2020-09-04 16:20:27 sandra Yeah, I'm not ragging on 2e. We're using a ton of 2e stuff in our game
2020-09-04 16:21:30 sandra There is this system for rolling legal verdicts in the Land of Fate box set that we're getting a ton of use out of
2020-09-04 16:21:41 sandra Both for the PCs and for various other apprehended people
2020-09-04 16:22:03 felix Interesting!
2020-09-04 16:22:12 djph 2e whatsitnow?
2020-09-04 16:22:23 felix AD&D2
2020-09-04 16:22:43 felix Advanced Dungeons&Dragons, second edition.
2020-09-04 16:22:48 sandra The elementalist got fined 100 dinars for reckless use of cursed item
2020-09-04 16:22:50 djph oh okay good
2020-09-04 16:23:13 @tomasino i learned D&D on the basic rules, and later AD&D 2nd edition. I thought it was a huge improvement. When 3.0 came out i was skeptical but quickly grew to love it, especially the THAC0 stuff being simplified. When 3.5 came out I was so excited they fixed all the issues in 3.0. Then when Pathfinder came around I was so excited they fixed all the issues in 3.5. (we shall never talk
2020-09-04 16:23:13 @tomasino about 4th edition)
2020-09-04 16:23:14 djph as long as your not hawkin' 5e as best (or tryin to tell us there was a 4e)
2020-09-04 16:23:37 djph 3.0 had issues certainly .. .but the closest I can get to AD&D is baldur's gate
2020-09-04 16:23:41 @tomasino 5th ed seems to have some neat ideas, and pathfinder 2 looks interesting too, but i haven't played either
2020-09-04 16:23:54 @tomasino Fate Core is my go-to fav system these days
2020-09-04 16:24:07 djph 5e comes off as D&D easy mode
2020-09-04 16:24:55 @tomasino in some ways, yeah. But it doesn't feel like a video game played in slow-mo on pen & paper like 4th
2020-09-04 16:24:56 sandra My players suck so the fact that our game has a ton of stuff from 5e is probably good for them. We've been playing for six years but still a ton of characters die every week
2020-09-04 16:25:00 djph couple of the guys in my group have it, but the best they describe it as is WoW on paper
2020-09-04 16:25:07 felix Fate Core is a fine successor to Fudge, yeah. I've read some of the sourcebooks based on it, they have interesting ideas.
2020-09-04 16:25:23 sandra We switched from Fate Core to D&D when 5e came out. The fate point economy was always clogging up for us
2020-09-04 16:25:29 djph I just lost my 2 year Healer a couple of weeks back.
2020-09-04 16:25:33 sandra People either had too many fate points or too few
2020-09-04 16:25:49 @tomasino i can see that
2020-09-04 16:26:21 @tomasino i have a couple players that really grok it and do well, but a few others that horde their points and never go for the compel and they end up just sitting around a lot
2020-09-04 16:26:30 @tomasino it's got a very different vibe and flow
2020-09-04 16:26:47 djph I never liked when the DM would bring in fate points
2020-09-04 16:26:51 felix 5e struck me as a kind of familiar land for old-timers to find themselves in, made comfy by recent renovations.
2020-09-04 16:26:58 sandra The advantage/disadvantage/inspiration system in 5e is kind of a rip-off of Fate in some ways but it doesn't stack which is good, doesn't lead to the heavy swings of Fate, and it doesn't cost any points to engage with the environment, and when you have to spend points you do it before the roll, not after, feels less liek a retcon
2020-09-04 16:27:04 djph sure they were nice to stave off death if you remembered you had them, but ... ehhh
2020-09-04 16:27:16 felix Newcomers aren't going to know or care who Bruenor Battlehammer is.
2020-09-04 16:27:36 felix Especially if they're, like, 20 years old.
2020-09-04 16:27:39 sandra Some newcomers get weirdly invested in old lore :)
2020-09-04 16:27:43 djph ^
2020-09-04 16:28:06 @tomasino i tried reading a forgotten realms book the other day
2020-09-04 16:28:10 @tomasino ugh, i cannot go back
2020-09-04 16:28:10 felix Well, yeah, there are always those who look back.
2020-09-04 16:28:25 sandra It's funny, early 5e releases were super retro, all about cameos from Volo etc etc but now a lot of the fandom is all about Exandria and Wildemount. Which is fine, each time has its own lore, IDK.
2020-09-04 16:46:52 felix Can't live all our lives in the past. Even as we age.
2020-09-04 16:52:56 sandra Speaking of Bruenor… They're gonna make Magic cards with Forgotten Realms characters next summer! So he might have a second life in cardboard form :D
2020-09-04 16:54:17 felix Interesting!
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2020-09-04 19:31:10 sandra Why is there so much nazi on Fedi in FOSS spaces :(
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2020-09-04 19:32:10 sandra Like, I could understamd if there were some, but it seems like it's all day every day
2020-09-04 19:40:41 @tomasino people are horrible
2020-09-04 19:45:02 acdw uh oh what happend?!
2020-09-04 19:47:47 acdw ah nvm .. read thru the logs. I'm playin 5e now but that's all i've done
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2020-09-04 19:58:47 xj9 sandra: sometimes i wonder if they're just good at being loud
2020-09-04 20:00:03 xj9 i think a whitelist federation would be easier to deal with from a moderation perspective
2020-09-04 20:00:22 xj9 maybe more like FOAF whitelist, so you don't have to be approving every instance that comes up
2020-09-04 20:01:12 acdw xj9: that is 1000% accuate
2020-09-04 20:01:18 xj9 hops = 2 is still a big network of folks that you're less likely to butt heads with i think?
2020-09-04 20:02:55 idf after a long day of work i finally got client certificate authorisation working :)
2020-09-04 20:05:32 idf paths where client certificates are required can be configured alongside a path to a file that contains authorised certificates for the respective path(just a .pem with a bunch of certs basically)
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2020-09-04 20:28:52 sandra They're good at being many and at being everywhere is what they are
2020-09-04 20:45:53 xj9 my question is, how do they do that? and how can it be countered?
2020-09-04 20:47:11 xj9 i think FOAF is a potential approach for filtering, but it doesn't prevent them. a FOAF whitelist would only create a trust barrier between the social groups
2020-09-04 20:47:47 xj9 not that communicating with them is helpful and maybe the only problem is that there isn't a barrier
2020-09-04 20:48:35 xj9 open nets tend to have this problem with flooding and cultural dilution
2020-09-04 20:54:56 companion_cube ahah for a second I thought this was #lobsters
2020-09-04 20:54:57 companion_cube foaf indeed
2020-09-04 20:56:10 acdw foaf?
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2020-09-04 20:57:53 @tomasino First out as fuck
2020-09-04 20:58:14 xj9 friend of a friend
2020-09-04 20:58:19 @tomasino Oh
2020-09-04 20:58:24 @tomasino That makes more sense
2020-09-04 20:58:38 xj9 sorry, assuming terms are common terms
2020-09-04 20:58:45 acdw omg
2020-09-04 20:58:56 acdw tomasino: i don't even know where to begin lol
2020-09-04 20:59:09 acdw xj9: thanks for the info! no worries about terms. i'm learning!
2020-09-04 20:59:09 @tomasino Heehee
2020-09-04 20:59:12 companion_cube fricking open as fuck?
2020-09-04 20:59:26 acdw faff off and fart
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2020-09-04 22:46:43 @tomasino fart!
2020-09-04 22:47:06 xj9 kek
2020-09-05 00:25:16 makeworld I updated my GUS stats graph so it's a lot cleaner
2020-09-05 00:25:25 makeworld Any thoughts on the aspect ratio?
2020-09-05 00:25:52 makeworld gemini://makeworld.gq/gus-graph/
2020-09-05 00:26:07 makeworld https://portal.mozz.us/gemini/makeworld.gq/gus-graph/graph.png?raw=1
2020-09-05 00:27:28 makeworld It uses a 2:1 aspect ratio rn
2020-09-05 00:47:06 kevinsan it looks fine to me - aspect ratio not so critical, since I'd have to consider the axis ranges to make sense in any case
2020-09-05 00:49:32 kevinsan it's interesting to look at, it's hinting at moving past linear growth
2020-09-05 00:54:39 makeworld Thanks
2020-09-05 00:54:43 makeworld Yeah it is interesting
2020-09-05 00:55:13 makeworld Unfortunately the number of pages is noisy/distorted due to domains going up & down, and site cleanups
2020-09-05 00:55:51 makeworld As GUS gathers more data the trends should be come more obvious and less noisy
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2020-09-05 07:54:11 sandra I just found out that you don't have to restart to add gemini:// to Pleroma, I was doing it wrong. In Admin FE after you type it in you have to click on what you typed. Don't shoot the messenger on that train wreck of a UX
2020-09-05 07:54:38 sandra Also you don't have to add the :// part
2020-09-05 07:54:50 sandra That, I already knew. But just in case someone else was referring to this later
2020-09-05 08:05:08 sandra I wrote up how I did it. gemini://idiomdrottning.org/gemini-on-pleroma.gmi ← Will show up on CAPCOM too.
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2020-09-05 10:30:07 @tomasino Oh nice
2020-09-05 10:30:09 @tomasino That's easy
2020-09-05 10:30:53 sandra Yeah I really went over the river after water the way I did it the first time :D
2020-09-05 10:31:25 sandra Pleroma also have a Gopher front end and an SSH frontend but both are pretty much just toy implementations at this point
2020-09-05 10:31:42 sandra Someone could write a Gemini front end using GIG or a similar setup. IDK
2020-09-05 10:31:58 sandra That doesn't seem like something especially urgent
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2020-09-05 11:27:16 autumnova I hate so say, I'm in love with gemini. Just did my first gemini page and the only thing I'm "missing" are markdown styled tables.
2020-09-05 11:27:32 autumnova s/I hate so say//
2020-09-05 11:32:06 djph y'know, I read that as "I have to say"
2020-09-05 11:44:14 autumnova The first part was meant for another channel, forgot to delte it ^^
2020-09-05 11:45:52 autumnova s/delte/delete
2020-09-05 11:45:59 autumnova Something's wrong with my English today, sry.
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2020-09-05 12:08:44 djph no worries, I'm still waking up myself
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2020-09-05 13:06:18 kevinsan autumnova, fun, isn't it? we've been over-engineering crud for way too long.
2020-09-05 13:07:20 login everything is a crud in the end
2020-09-05 13:13:17 autumnova kevinsan: I'm sry, but I have no idea what crud is :x Reading about it now.
2020-09-05 13:15:11 autumnova Web Development, alright. There's the reason I didn't know it ^^
2020-09-05 13:16:23 login create, read, update, delete
2020-09-05 13:17:11 autumnova Just saw that. I was never into web developing at all.
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2020-09-05 13:30:07 ⚡ felix waves!
2020-09-05 13:31:48 ⚡ autumnova waves back
2020-09-05 13:32:00 felix Hi there! What's new?
2020-09-05 13:59:02 kevinsan autumnova, maybe crud is a scottish word - means crap, but yeah the sentence works for web crud too!
2020-09-05 13:59:55 autumnova Seems accurate.
2020-09-05 14:00:19 kevinsan hi fexix - i'll tell you something new. someone said there's no server for JVM, so I wrote a server in Java
2020-09-05 14:00:57 kevinsan i'm kind of annoyed with myself for lacking the discipline to NOT do that. i'm writing a server that i'm unlikely to use
2020-09-05 14:01:22 felix As long as you're having fun and learning something.
2020-09-05 14:01:41 kevinsan pretty much no on both objectives :)
2020-09-05 14:02:05 felix Well, maybe someone else will.
2020-09-05 14:02:37 kevinsan ok, so it's a little bit fun, and I don't hate Java, but it's kind of at odds with Gemini values (Gemserv, in rust, resident ram 7MB)
2020-09-05 14:03:00 felix :D
2020-09-05 14:03:01 kevinsan Jemserv, in Java, resident 80MB. And it currently does less!
2020-09-05 14:03:15 easeout nothing wrong with making a protocol available to be used in more places
2020-09-05 14:03:29 felix ^
2020-09-05 14:03:31 easeout see, that's cheap, _for java_
2020-09-05 14:03:38 djph kevinsan: it's just easier to hate java though
2020-09-05 14:03:39 easeout java is the cost, not gemini
2020-09-05 14:04:41 felix I'm grateful to the people who make Gemini software.
2020-09-05 14:05:01 felix Because frankly I'd rather stick to using it.
2020-09-05 14:05:09 djph ^
2020-09-05 14:05:32 djph one less thing I have to learn how to write (not that it'll stop me from _eventually_ doing it)
2020-09-05 14:07:10 felix Either way is fine. And I plan to write my share of code, for gemtext processing.
2020-09-05 15:00:39 autumnova Is someone working on an Android client?
2020-09-05 15:03:16 felix Yes, actually. It's called Deedum I think.
2020-09-05 15:03:27 login ooh, nice
2020-09-05 15:03:38 login is it screenreader friendly?
2020-09-05 15:03:38 felix And its creators claim it's pending approval to app stores.
2020-09-05 15:03:49 felix Hopefully that means F-Droid.
2020-09-05 15:04:00 felix No idea, sorry, I didn't check.
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2020-09-05 15:06:09 felix https://github.com/snoe/deedum
2020-09-05 15:06:20 felix O hai!
2020-09-05 15:06:41 autumnova It's already in the play store, but I prefeder F-Droid.
2020-09-05 15:08:43 felix Ah. Well, it's also kinda large TBH.
2020-09-05 15:09:06 lukee afternoon fellow cult members!
2020-09-05 15:10:25 autumnova Deedum seems to be in this F-Droid repo for now: https://apt.izzysoft.de/fdroid/index/apk/ca.snoe.deedum
2020-09-05 15:11:36 felix I see! Thanks!
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2020-09-05 15:12:26 felix Any idea what Android version it requires?
2020-09-05 15:12:38 acdw There's also Tva
2020-09-05 15:12:57 felix Ooh?
2020-09-05 15:13:28 acdw https://www.oppenlab.net/pr/tva/
2020-09-05 15:13:39 acdw Also found an awesome-gemini list on GH: https://github.com/kr1sp1n/awesome-gemini
2020-09-05 15:13:47 felix Right!
2020-09-05 15:14:02 acdw Gotta admit, I don't really get the awesome-* trend on GH
2020-09-05 15:15:00 felix It's a kind of web directory.
2020-09-05 15:15:36 acdw ^ oh, yeah , I get that, it's just a wild trend (I guess is what i mean)
2020-09-05 15:16:02 acdw like, people just decide to make one? How do they decide who's knowledgeable enough about <topic> to make a list?
2020-09-05 15:17:11 felix How does anyone decide that?
2020-09-05 15:17:27 felix Should I need credentials to keep a list of links I find of interest?
2020-09-05 15:17:47 acdw hmm fair point. plus it's on Github so like .. pull requests
2020-09-05 15:17:57 felix Exactly! I contributed to one just like that.
2020-09-05 15:18:02 acdw maybe I've not been thinking about this right
2020-09-05 15:18:14 acdw Im' about to to the gemini one, actuallY! I've noticed vulpes.one's been down for a while
2020-09-05 15:18:26 lukee maybe there should be an awesome list of awesome liests
2020-09-05 15:18:33 lukee liests -> lists
2020-09-05 15:18:36 felix There is! Awesome Awesomeness.
2020-09-05 15:18:55 felix It's a pretty hefty one too.
2020-09-05 15:19:05 lukee of course there has to be
2020-09-05 15:19:21 acdw oh shoot --- actually I think work has just got proxy.vulpes.one blocked for me
2020-09-05 15:19:45 lukee you've been delving into that naughty part of the internet again, havent you?
2020-09-05 15:19:49 acdw https://github.com/sindresorhus/awesome
2020-09-05 15:19:58 acdw lukee: B)
2020-09-05 15:20:35 lukee just replied to your reply about NQ2 with some further frippery
2020-09-05 15:20:43 acdw aw yis
2020-09-05 15:21:14 acdw felix: also https://github.com/jonatasbaldin/awesome-awesome-awesome
2020-09-05 15:21:26 felix :D
2020-09-05 15:22:06 lukee all your awesome lists are belong to us
2020-09-05 15:23:11 lukee At least the last one had the decency to include the shrug emoji
2020-09-05 15:23:13 acdw I'm just going to write a repo that automatically pulls a list of every repo on Github and publishes that
2020-09-05 15:23:42 felix Oh, proxy.vulpes.one looks nice indeed.
2020-09-05 15:24:06 felix And also has that thing where it inlines image thumbnails.
2020-09-05 15:24:26 lukee its handy for sharing links to people on the outside
2020-09-05 15:24:27 acdw oh okay so it *is* up. huh
2020-09-05 15:24:40 acdw yeah I just don't like the styling -- i'm a light theme dood
2020-09-05 15:25:02 felix Fair enough. Me too for the most part.
2020-09-05 15:25:11 felix Though my latest creation is very much dark.
2020-09-05 15:25:13 lukee the mozz one is light themed. But uses serif font!
2020-09-05 15:26:04 felix Aw. Didn't realize it was a problem for some people.
2020-09-05 15:26:28 acdw I use mozz.us for that reason, with a userstyle that makes it even more my style
2020-09-05 15:26:30 lukee just feels old fashioned
2020-09-05 15:26:33 acdw b/c i'm extra like that
2020-09-05 15:26:40 lukee not really a problem, I just like a moan
2020-09-05 15:27:45 lukee My brain associates serif font with newspapers, books and Netscape 1.0
2020-09-05 15:28:25 lukee the blobs of the serif are literally there to catch the ink
2020-09-05 15:30:37 djph thank you Gutenberg :)
2020-09-05 15:31:16 felix I didn't know that. Got website themes using both kinds of font.
2020-09-05 15:31:50 lukee and why not. On the web you can style the website the way you want.
2020-09-05 15:32:25 felix Right! And that can be good too, up to a point.
2020-09-05 15:32:29 lukee As long as you didn't use a cursive font or comic sans!
2020-09-05 15:32:33 felix :D
2020-09-05 15:32:57 felix Would you rather I use Open Dyslexic? :P
2020-09-05 15:33:33 lukee I don't care, I would just read your site using a Gemini browser :)
2020-09-05 15:34:41 lukee Its a fair certainty that for everyone who has a gemini site, their website will be straightforward content
2020-09-05 15:35:03 acdw lukee: that is so interesting about the serifs! I had no idea.
2020-09-05 15:35:06 acdw I like serifs :)
2020-09-05 15:35:15 acdw they're ~fancy~
2020-09-05 15:35:40 acdw omg. just had the best idea. comic sans mono
2020-09-05 15:36:24 acdw oh also lukee: just read your mail. I thought NQ2 was the quadrant in terrestrial system, NGQ3 in galactic
2020-09-05 15:36:31 acdw but I didn't read that closely tbh ;P
2020-09-05 15:37:20 felix Well, I test my sites in text-based browsers. They should work well with user styles.
2020-09-05 15:38:10 felix But I also make my own styles.
2020-09-05 15:38:37 acdw that's what else is great with gemini ... no author styles, so the client is free to read how they like
2020-09-05 15:38:44 acdw also: https://www.myfonts.com/fonts/tabular-type-foundry/comic-code?tab=glyphs
2020-09-05 15:38:49 acdw http://comicneue.com/
2020-09-05 15:38:55 lukee acdw: yes you could be right about that, I just got a bit lost in the references you sent. Probably obvious to say it is not my area of expertise
2020-09-05 15:39:18 felix Yeah, if browsers had halfway-decent user styles built in, we'd have much less need for CSS.
2020-09-05 15:39:27 felix Opera used to have a set, and removed the feature.
2020-09-05 15:39:37 lukee Actually the story of serifs is a bit more complex, I think the Roman stonmasons used them.
2020-09-05 15:39:52 acdw oh and https://github.com/belluzj/fantasque-sans used to be "comic sans neueue mono"
2020-09-05 15:40:18 acdw lukee: oh yes they did -- you can see it on the buildings
2020-09-05 15:40:31 lukee But some fonts, used a lot in newspaper printing, like Times, was in part designed that way as the blobs help catch the ink and the character is still recognisible even if partly mis-printed
2020-09-05 15:40:40 acdw oh and Space Coordinates aren't my area of expertise either!
2020-09-05 15:40:51 acdw oh that's so cool
2020-09-05 15:43:20 felix Very!
2020-09-05 15:44:04 acdw Apparently Firefox *has* a alternative style thing, under the View menu
2020-09-05 15:44:19 acdw so like, you can specify different CSS that the user can load from a menu
2020-09-05 15:44:35 felix Good to know.
2020-09-05 15:44:38 felix And for what it's worth, I also like making text look good by alternating features.
2020-09-05 15:45:02 felix That works on web pages and gemtext alike.
2020-09-05 15:45:33 felix In fact I wrote about that just recently.
2020-09-05 15:45:59 acdw ooh link
2020-09-05 15:46:17 acdw i mean if you want
2020-09-05 15:46:44 felix https://felix.plesoianu.ro/web/site.html
2020-09-05 15:46:58 felix I'm afraid it only really works as a website.
2020-09-05 15:47:04 felix Because of the points it makes.
2020-09-05 15:47:48 acdw B)
2020-09-05 15:49:43 acdw liek that 3-line css. I do something similar usually.
2020-09-05 15:49:51 lukee looks just fine to me as gemtext :)
2020-09-05 15:50:04 acdw body { max-width: 70ch; padding: 2ch; margin: auto; font: 18px/1.3 serif; }
2020-09-05 15:50:45 lukee felix - its funny you have a content warning for profanity
2020-09-05 15:50:51 lukee at the *bottom* of the page!
2020-09-05 15:52:49 felix I guess!
2020-09-05 15:53:28 felix acdw: Right, there's plenty of room for variations.
2020-09-05 15:53:36 lukee if you had an over-sensitive reader, the damage would have been done by that point
2020-09-05 15:53:56 felix I use so much profanity in the text?
2020-09-05 15:54:16 lukee no, but it seems if you need a warning, it should come first?
2020-09-05 15:54:41 lukee I didnt spot any profanity anyway
2020-09-05 15:55:17 acdw well the warning is before the part that is warned about
2020-09-05 15:55:24 lukee oh, ok "every F..in website"
2020-09-05 15:56:34 felix Guess it's less useful in browsers that don't support <details>
2020-09-05 15:56:49 lukee huh, that doesnt show in my firefox!
2020-09-05 15:57:22 lukee Oh I get it, it is clickable. Sorry, stupid me. Perfect design!
2020-09-05 15:57:29 felix Thanks!
2020-09-05 15:57:41 lukee it just looks like an icon, not an active element
2020-09-05 15:57:51 lukee got to dash now
2020-09-05 15:58:49 ⚡ felix waves!
2020-09-05 16:03:08 acdw I like <details>
2020-09-05 16:05:08 felix Me too!
2020-09-05 16:07:55 acdw about styling tho: what I *really* wish is that I could have a "default" style --- like the one mentioned arelier -- b/c some websites have no style and that's annoying.
2020-09-05 16:09:13 felix Right! And without one web pages look horrid in mainstream browsers.
2020-09-05 16:09:59 acdw so true.
2020-09-05 16:10:13 acdw maybe stylus *can* do that? but I don't want it to override any existing styles.
2020-09-05 16:10:35 felix Dunno.
2020-09-05 16:11:41 acdw I'll have to research it then!
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2020-09-05 16:20:46 felix Welcome back!
2020-09-05 16:21:41 acdw hi
2020-09-05 16:21:48 acdw good to be back
2020-09-05 16:22:36 lukee Nice quote: "Facebook is an ant farm of humanity."
2020-09-05 16:22:44 acdw haha that's awesome
2020-09-05 16:22:48 lukee https://www.thenation.com/article/culture/joanne-mcneil-lurking-review/tnamp/
2020-09-05 16:23:00 felix Well said!
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2020-09-05 16:24:26 felix o/
2020-09-05 16:24:42 kvothe whoa hey, hi hello, look at all you gemininauts! :D
2020-09-05 16:24:50 acdw hey hi howdy :)
2020-09-05 16:25:05 kvothe o/ felix and acdw
2020-09-05 16:25:19 lukee hiya
2020-09-05 16:25:26 felix How's it going?
2020-09-05 16:25:36 kvothe o/ lukee
2020-09-05 16:25:52 kvothe It's going really well, having my second cup of coffee after going for a run, how about y'all?
2020-09-05 16:26:08 acdw mmm coffee
2020-09-05 16:26:21 acdw i'm working on a saturday which isn't great but i'm also here which is okay'
2020-09-05 16:26:23 kvothe bean juice!
2020-09-05 16:26:51 kvothe true true, you're in a library, no? Monday off for labor/labour day?
2020-09-05 16:26:52 felix Had a productive day.
2020-09-05 16:27:00 acdw yes I am! And yes I am
2020-09-05 16:27:11 acdw which I'm like ^_^
2020-09-05 16:27:15 kvothe woo for days off and productive days
2020-09-05 16:27:25 acdw yes, good job felix
2020-09-05 16:27:43 acdw speaking of productive, i need to edit this video
2020-09-05 16:27:49 felix Thanks!
2020-09-05 16:29:21 kvothe my leggies are tender now, but I had to move my sedentary office-job butt!
2020-09-05 16:29:38 acdw I know that feeeling!
2020-09-05 16:31:27 kvothe My wife is exploring numbers stations for a book idea she got, and I'm so tickled by that
2020-09-05 16:32:20 felix Exciting!
2020-09-05 16:32:40 lukee what are number stations?
2020-09-05 16:32:58 kvothe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numbers_station
2020-09-05 16:33:08 kvothe they're so interesting!
2020-09-05 16:35:04 lukee It reminds me that I heard there were still radio posts listening for morse signals until not that long ago
2020-09-05 16:36:18 kvothe it's a bit sad thinking of all the old school radio stuff kind of dying out, but I definitely get that the Internet has replaced a good chunk of the same stuff
2020-09-05 16:36:24 felix Guess there were people still using Morse code.
2020-09-05 16:36:54 kvothe the number of shortwave stations has definitely dwindled in favor of internet radio
2020-09-05 16:37:15 felix Probably. Though I know a couple of HAM radio operators.
2020-09-05 16:37:27 kvothe true!
2020-09-05 16:40:53 felix And who knows... wireless telegraphs are a lot easier to build than radios meant to carry voice.
2020-09-05 16:41:09 felix Who knows in what kind of situation the difference could matter.
2020-09-05 16:51:16 kvothe ah beans, I didn't get my caffeine fast enough to stave off the headache :|
2020-09-05 16:54:56 felix Aw/
2020-09-05 16:55:55 @tomasino hello my peoples
2020-09-05 16:56:26 acdw allo
2020-09-05 16:56:31 acdw kvothe: oh no!
2020-09-05 16:58:26 @tomasino :D
2020-09-05 16:58:33 @tomasino oh noes, headaches!
2020-09-05 16:58:44 @tomasino quick, do that trick with your pressure point on your back
2020-09-05 17:00:02 felix O hai!
2020-09-05 17:00:33 @tomasino what's new felix
2020-09-05 17:01:42 felix Not much on the Gemini front. Some coding, some blogging.
2020-09-05 17:01:46 felix How are you?
2020-09-05 17:03:51 @tomasino good good. Watching vimconf.live
2020-09-05 17:04:00 @tomasino just got back from a hike
2020-09-05 17:04:04 felix Nice!
2020-09-05 17:05:57 acdw oh no do i want to know what vimconf.live is
2020-09-05 17:06:08 acdw oh thtat's awesome, i want to just watch that
2020-09-05 17:06:25 acdw but i am at le work
2020-09-05 17:07:37 @tomasino lots of conferences this year are going virtual and free
2020-09-05 17:07:40 @tomasino so i'm joining a lot more
2020-09-05 17:09:48 acdw aw yiss
2020-09-05 17:09:53 acdw i should check emacs con
2020-09-05 17:09:59 @tomasino do it!
2020-09-05 17:10:01 acdw since i've gone to the dork side now :P
2020-09-05 17:10:47 lukee the dark side of the moon?
2020-09-05 17:10:47 @tomasino heh, whatever works for you
2020-09-05 17:10:54 @tomasino we have options for that reason!
2020-09-05 17:11:01 lukee great album
2020-09-05 17:11:35 lukee windows isn't so much of a bogeyman
2020-09-05 17:11:52 acdw haha yes
2020-09-05 17:12:05 acdw gotta setup wine to run notepad
2020-09-05 17:13:30 felix It has one built-in. ;)
2020-09-05 17:37:18 kvothe low key wanna get vimwiki setup to publish to gemini and mirror it on HTTP, also lowkey don't have the energy to undertake that endeavor quite yet
2020-09-05 17:38:08 djph kvothe: just get the name of the silicon, call it done :)
2020-09-05 17:39:37 kvothe ha!
2020-09-05 17:40:20 kvothe why hello, Mr., uh, Plan 9 Microcontroller? Did I pronounce that right?
2020-09-05 17:45:00 acdw mm that sounds rad tho
2020-09-05 17:47:11 kvothe as long as it's not "X Æ A-12"
2020-09-05 17:49:04 lukee that man is a complete....
2020-09-05 17:50:08 lukee (elon musk I mean)
2020-09-05 17:50:41 kvothe he's something
2020-09-05 17:51:55 lukee I just cant find the right word
2020-09-05 17:52:24 kvothe \o/ jefferson airplane
2020-09-05 17:52:57 lukee did he go to the same school for narcissists as The Donald?
2020-09-05 17:53:12 kvothe \o/ \o/ \o/ shout out dj kate
2020-09-05 17:53:17 kvothe erp
2020-09-05 17:53:35 kvothe I realized I meant that was for #tilderadio lol
2020-09-05 17:54:29 lukee is that how people dance on IRC? \o/
2020-09-05 17:54:36 kvothe got the joe rogan, jordan peterson, et. al. crew following along, that musk does
2020-09-05 17:54:44 kvothe YES \o/
2020-09-05 18:00:48 sandra Hi kvothe I was looking into some of that nazi shit
2020-09-05 18:01:08 sandra I'm getting so sick of the FOSS world :(
2020-09-05 18:01:23 kvothe yeah, it's pretty awful
2020-09-05 18:01:28 sandra (I am Idiomdrottning on CAPCOM)
2020-09-05 18:01:29 kvothe I saw your reply!
2020-09-05 18:01:33 sandra Oh that's great
2020-09-05 18:02:09 kvothe but yeah, like, why is this so prevalent?
2020-09-05 18:02:21 sandra Someone tried to explain it to me this morning
2020-09-05 18:02:33 sandra There are "freedom extremists" and they fight for the free speech of nazis
2020-09-05 18:02:39 sandra Not sure the suckless crowd is part of that
2020-09-05 18:02:53 sandra There is just this one guy who is a bitreich user also
2020-09-05 18:02:58 sandra Bitreich and suckless are otherwise distinct
2020-09-05 18:03:21 sandra Bitreich aren't nazi either but uh, they have a pretty dumb name and they have a lot of sexist stuff
2020-09-05 18:03:25 sandra And that guy is even worse
2020-09-05 18:03:39 sandra He's always been super nice to me though
2020-09-05 18:03:49 kvothe that's really gross
2020-09-05 18:03:49 sandra I just got sick of this entire vibe of sexism
2020-09-05 18:03:53 felix kvothe: because they refuse to accept how it works, despite all the experts trying to point out the evidence.
2020-09-05 18:03:59 felix Survivors. Historians.
2020-09-05 18:04:17 sandra In the FOSS crowd there is a lot of "free speech is the best thing"
2020-09-05 18:04:43 easeout one of these days we're going to have to learn the paradox of tolerance
2020-09-05 18:04:48 felix And yeah. Techbros are a related problem.
2020-09-05 18:05:06 kvothe yes, agreed
2020-09-05 18:05:15 autumnova Don't let yourself drag down from such people/groups.
2020-09-05 18:05:31 sandra Here is me chewing out a guy who linked to a "reclaim the net protect free speech" site on Fedi: https://idiomdrottning.org/notice/9yoH1JKVGkDcOmqkOO I think the guy who linked to them was more clueless than anything. Every post on that site is from a "pro-white" perspective even though they claim to be about free speech
2020-09-05 18:05:38 felix I've been one, too. :( Still can't see my own bad behaviors from back then.
2020-09-05 18:05:48 felix Only the effects.
2020-09-05 18:06:18 felix And yeah, funny how that works.
2020-09-05 18:06:42 companion_cube wtf does this guy pose with a gun
2020-09-05 18:07:00 sandra I've been off social media since the 90s pretty much and now I started using first IRC for like a month and then Fedi&gemspace for, well, since Tuesday pretty much and I'm shocked at the amount of nazis
2020-09-05 18:07:13 sandra That's not the guy I'm talking to, that is a murderer who shot protesters
2020-09-05 18:07:30 sandra Or if it's spelled protestors I can never remember.
2020-09-05 18:08:37 companion_cube oh fuck
2020-09-05 18:08:47 felix Did you run into the Tusky / Husky / Fedilab controversy, sandra?
2020-09-05 18:08:49 companion_cube people with assault rifles = bad news :((
2020-09-05 18:08:54 lukee how on earth do some people have no human awareness?
2020-09-05 18:08:54 sandra And the nazi site he is linking to is saying that it was such a tragedy that the murderer's lawyer was locked from Twitter for 9 hours. And I'm like yeah everyone deserves a legal defense I just wish the people who are actually dead could've had a legal defense
2020-09-05 18:08:59 easeout anyone becomes shocked at the amount of nazis there are when they come out in the open.
2020-09-05 18:09:06 felix lukee: they can afford to.
2020-09-05 18:09:06 kvothe it's strange, I don't know if I've ever been a techbro, but I've definitely been, let's say, silent in communities where strong personalities behaved abusively
2020-09-05 18:09:34 sandra felix: Yes, my response to that was a bit chicken shit, I wish I could've gone harder on the fedilab guy, I was kind of cowardly in my response https://idiomdrottning.org/notice/9ym68TJhvGAMxEIF5U
2020-09-05 18:11:07 sandra What's the tusky/husky thing? I checked the code bases and both tusky and husky seemed to have the same banning, or lack of banning, in their source trees
2020-09-05 18:11:07 kvothe felix++
2020-09-05 18:11:21 lukee sandra: sounds like you're better out of that swamp
2020-09-05 18:11:40 sandra I unfollowed everyone involved
2020-09-05 18:11:54 companion_cube kvothe: what do you think of sexism in name of the wind? :p
2020-09-05 18:11:57 companion_cube (which I really like, btw)
2020-09-05 18:12:05 felix That's odd, it was my understanding that Husky doesn't have those hardcoded bans, which was the whole point.
2020-09-05 18:12:25 admicos iirc husky removed and re-added the bans as a sort of joke or something
2020-09-05 18:12:33 admicos can't exactly remember how it went down
2020-09-05 18:12:59 lukee there is something to be said that the medium is the message
2020-09-05 18:13:07 kvothe companion_cube: yes, so it's been a hot minute, but iirc Rothfuss wrote a lot of the female characters, especially in book 2, as damsels in distress and I'm tired of the trope tbh
2020-09-05 18:13:19 companion_cube yeah agreed, book 2 is weird
2020-09-05 18:13:26 sandra Neither Tusky nor Husky have gab bans in but both have a "do not translate" rick roll check in against
2020-09-05 18:13:26 companion_cube it's a pity becuase otherwise I love the style
2020-09-05 18:13:42 sandra Fedilab made a big showy point of removing his ban
2020-09-05 18:14:12 kvothe he has a way with words, for sure, but not a way out of the box, so to speak
2020-09-05 18:14:19 sandra I found Husky on F-Droid, I was like "why was this forked", downloaded both repos, grepped for gabs, and neither had a ban and both had "anti rickroll protection" against gab
2020-09-05 18:14:37 felix Meh.
2020-09-05 18:14:54 sandra I don't know any history or discussion beyond just grepping the current versions of the source on both
2020-09-05 18:15:01 sandra I'm really bad at being in the loop
2020-09-05 18:15:03 lukee can I ask a simple question - what is a "gab"?
2020-09-05 18:15:05 admicos iirc husky was meant to add some pleroma-specific additions to tusky
2020-09-05 18:15:13 sandra lukee: A nazi site
2020-09-05 18:15:20 lukee yuk
2020-09-05 18:15:24 admicos but some people out there associate pleroma with nazis because it's easy to set up (so nazis do it too, i guess)
2020-09-05 18:15:29 sandra admicos: That doesn't in and of itself sound bad. I do use pleroma
2020-09-05 18:15:44 admicos (also they say the dev team is a little controversial but i don't have sources for that)
2020-09-05 18:15:47 easeout i mean, being associated with nazis is bad
2020-09-05 18:15:57 sandra I feel a bit hesitant to go on since this is a publically logged chat and there are some peeps I wanna rant against but I don't want them to come after me
2020-09-05 18:15:57 easeout being easy to set up is not bad
2020-09-05 18:16:17 easeout i understand
2020-09-05 18:16:45 admicos well, since most "nazis" get kicked out from mastodon instances, they set up their own single-user instances to be "free"
2020-09-05 18:16:50 sandra kvothe: Did you just follow me? Or is that someone else? Just making sure
2020-09-05 18:16:55 sandra I'll follow you back if it's you
2020-09-05 18:16:56 kvothe that's me
2020-09-05 18:16:57 admicos and because pleroma is light, single-user instances tend to use it
2020-09-05 18:17:33 admicos aside from the dev team allegations, i don't really see anything wrong with pleroma, but there are some people out there who just ban pleroma instances on sight
2020-09-05 18:17:38 easeout so how does the federation protocol act as a moderating force when the subject of moderation is not a user but an instance
2020-09-05 18:17:55 felix Meh, these days I'm a lot more optimistic about twtxt anyway.
2020-09-05 18:18:04 felix easeout: you can silence an entire instance.
2020-09-05 18:18:23 easeout silence for who, yourself? or for everyone else you federate to
2020-09-05 18:18:37 easeout like, can you forward a vote of no confidence to the rest of the network to consider
2020-09-05 18:18:45 felix You can do it as a user, or else admins can defederate from them.
2020-09-05 18:18:50 kvothe so on one hand, going fishing with a shotgun by outright banning pleroma instances is an extreme. on the other, anyone that's been harassed online has experienced something completely else entirely and I don't blame them for avoiding the hell out of anything that smells of it
2020-09-05 18:18:55 admicos iirc admins can silence for the entire instance, and users can do it for themselves
2020-09-05 18:18:56 easeout i see, thanks for the details
2020-09-05 18:19:00 sandra easeout: You can't forward a vote of no confidence. You can "stop the buck" but that's it
2020-09-05 18:19:01 admicos blocks do not federate afaik
2020-09-05 18:19:48 easeout i dunno i wouldn't call denylisting pleroma at large extreme, i'd call it a first approximation
2020-09-05 18:20:03 kvothe easeout++ # yep
2020-09-05 18:20:21 easeout nuance can come later
2020-09-05 18:20:27 sandra I don't want to host a Mastodon instance. The code is garbage
2020-09-05 18:20:59 admicos sandra: as someone who hosts one myself: yes
2020-09-05 18:21:27 admicos transpiling the front-end js code for it just eats ram like nobodies business
2020-09-05 18:21:30 easeout i am just not on social media generally. seems like the cost/benefit is not a great deal
2020-09-05 18:22:01 kvothe easeout: that's entirely fair, a lot of it has been designed to be a skinner box that keeps you hooked for advertising
2020-09-05 18:22:26 kvothe federated software that emulates it without the ads isn't much better because the underlying design is there
2020-09-05 18:22:33 @tomasino paper: thanks for the pb issue
2020-09-05 18:22:35 @tomasino should be solved
2020-09-05 18:22:43 @tomasino i also carried through the change on todo(1)
2020-09-05 18:22:59 sandra I'm not on here with a pseudonym or something like that so I feel a bit exposed ranting about this
2020-09-05 18:23:02 paper tomasino: thanks for making pb :)
2020-09-05 18:23:19 easeout kvothe, but for all the talk of twitter failing to moderate, it sounds like the fediverse is having an even harder time
2020-09-05 18:23:20 kvothe sandra: entirely fair
2020-09-05 18:23:24 djph sandra: and here I thought your real name was Bob. :|
2020-09-05 18:23:40 easeout though the lack of ads is a huge plus
2020-09-05 18:23:42 felix The Fediverse infamously facilitates dogpiling, for one thing.
2020-09-05 18:23:45 kvothe one thing that frightens me is AI being able to demask pseudonyms
2020-09-05 18:24:07 easeout dogpiling as in what, group bullying?
2020-09-05 18:24:15 djph I have enough psuedonyms tied publicly to my real name I just stopped caring.
2020-09-05 18:24:16 @tomasino my pleasure!
2020-09-05 18:24:22 felix easeout: pretty much.
2020-09-05 18:24:29 sandra djph: WTF!?!
2020-09-05 18:24:34 easeout well no wonder it has a reputation for attracting hate groups hten
2020-09-05 18:24:39 easeout -then
2020-09-05 18:24:50 felix Nah, I mean, this happens even with the best intentions.
2020-09-05 18:24:52 djph sandra: for example, my radio callsign, being public record.
2020-09-05 18:24:54 sandra djph: What caused that misunderstanding? I talked about a guy in suckless that's called bob
2020-09-05 18:24:59 @tomasino i use my real name as a reminder that the illusion of anonymity another name gives is dangerous
2020-09-05 18:25:20 easeout i like that.
2020-09-05 18:25:50 djph sandra: percentile die came up with "Bob"
2020-09-05 18:25:57 sandra Not cool :(
2020-09-05 18:26:13 admicos honestly since i started up an alternate mastodon account not tied to my real name i rarely post on my main now
2020-09-05 18:26:22 admicos it's kind of freeing tbh
2020-09-05 18:26:24 kvothe tomasino: yes, I get that. it's a dangerous game to play, but it's all calculating risks.
2020-09-05 18:26:36 djph sandra: I meant it more that I was under the impression your IRC nick had no correlation to anything about you.
2020-09-05 18:27:01 djph tomasino: your parents named you "tomasino"? were you born in vegas perchance?
2020-09-05 18:27:05 kvothe for instance, I have a pretty high desire to be out as poly, but not in IRL space
2020-09-05 18:27:20 @tomasino tomasino is my last name, but i go by it alone most of the time
2020-09-05 18:27:27 @tomasino you can find me easily by it
2020-09-05 18:27:37 @tomasino sandra, i just assume you're a big grease fan
2020-09-05 18:27:41 companion_cube isn't there where being poly matters, kvothe ?
2020-09-05 18:28:36 djph it's still more effort than I want to expend. I mean even the percentile die to come up with "sandra's real name" was kinda high on the effort scale today
2020-09-05 18:28:46 kvothe it is, and I am out IRL to a subset of people I know -- my employer and coworkers not so much
2020-09-05 18:28:53 lukee @tomasino++
2020-09-05 18:28:59 @tomasino my public-ness here is a bit of an expression of my privilege, that my existence isn't by its nature offensive or likely to get me injured
2020-09-05 18:29:16 kvothe tomasino++
2020-09-05 18:29:26 @tomasino i respect those who have to work around it through anon means, but just having an alias is a dangerous way to do it, easily outted
2020-09-05 18:29:27 lukee its just a lot of work to maintain a pseudonym
2020-09-05 18:29:42 djph or easily told to the wrong person
2020-09-05 18:29:55 @tomasino that too
2020-09-05 18:30:36 kvothe so, internally, I've kind of wrestled with that. I'm of the opinion that if I get outed, fuck it, I'm out, otherwise I'd never even broach the subject online
2020-09-05 18:30:47 djph got around that with an irc box that uses 'djph' as my user as well, so when showing people stuff, I don't have to remember to not plaster my name all over IRC
2020-09-05 18:30:48 @tomasino imagine your personal public identity and everything it touches. media, people, topics, etc.... now create an alias and overlap zero of that other space and maybe, just maybe, you can keep things apart
2020-09-05 18:30:57 sandra This line of joke is upsetting in the context of me talking about how vulnerable I feel because I'm talking in a context where my real name and identity is easily find-out-able. Even if "you could've typed any name", I've posted my Gemini instance and my Fedi instance here and it's easily findable from that.
2020-09-05 18:31:01 @tomasino but these days even the way you speak, the vocabulary you choose, can reconnect to you
2020-09-05 18:31:06 djph ^
2020-09-05 18:31:30 felix There's a difference between outright stating it and making people do a little legwork.
2020-09-05 18:31:33 djph sandra: uh, sorry :|
2020-09-05 18:31:36 kvothe yep
2020-09-05 18:31:53 felix Anyway, I should go. See you!
2020-09-05 18:31:54 sandra I'm also sandra on oftc and my last name on freenode
2020-09-05 18:31:57 easeout security by obscurity is not nothing
2020-09-05 18:32:36 kvothe easeout++ # exactly, no reason to make things _easy_
2020-09-05 18:32:47 @tomasino i think i missed whatever started this topic
2020-09-05 18:32:53 @tomasino anywho, hope everyone is safe!
2020-09-05 18:33:00 kvothe same :)
2020-09-05 18:33:10 easeout 🕊
2020-09-05 18:33:20 djph got my hot pink hockey tape and mom on speed dial. I'll be alright
2020-09-05 18:33:29 felix has quit (Client exited)
2020-09-05 18:33:35 djph ... wait, that's not what you meant, was it?
2020-09-05 18:33:52 @tomasino moms on speed dial just dated you
2020-09-05 18:33:55 @tomasino :D
2020-09-05 18:34:05 lukee sandra: sorry to hear you feel vulnerable that is pretty crap you have to deal with people like that
2020-09-05 18:34:23 djph tomasino: oops
2020-09-05 18:37:06 djph tomasino: was something the shop teacher always told us in like highschool
2020-09-05 18:37:09 kvothe turdbuckets on the internet being turdbuckets
2020-09-05 18:37:22 @tomasino that's what the internet is for, right?
2020-09-05 18:37:36 @tomasino it's where we harvest our turdbuckets
2020-09-05 18:37:37 kvothe it's a fine balance between dodging turdbucketry and finding community
2020-09-05 18:37:47 djph kvothe: funny how the facade of anonymity does that to people, innit?
2020-09-05 18:38:06 kvothe it's both, really
2020-09-05 18:38:18 @tomasino turdbuckets will turd
2020-09-05 18:38:20 @tomasino as they say
2020-09-05 18:38:20 djph tomasino: a rather exceptional crop this year, I think the lack of sun has really helped the growth
2020-09-05 18:39:17 lukee seems pleasant we havent had any pop up on gemini yet
2020-09-05 18:39:34 kvothe take, for instance, people entering zoom meetings and blaring porn in front of school kids
2020-09-05 18:39:36 ⚡ tomasino knocks on wood
2020-09-05 18:40:04 admicos gemini's still pretty small and in the places where i see it, it's always very much away from those kinds of people
2020-09-05 18:40:24 @tomasino every time it hits HN we run the risk
2020-09-05 18:40:27 kvothe egged on, I'm sure, by a bunch of likeminded pseudonymous folks
2020-09-05 18:40:34 kvothe tomasino: agreed
2020-09-05 18:40:35 @tomasino we've been pretty lucky so far that it's brought in a good crowd of people
2020-09-05 18:40:43 admicos oh hn exists i forgot
2020-09-05 18:41:16 lukee is HN that bad - most of the idiots seem to get "greyed out"
2020-09-05 18:41:28 @tomasino it can be
2020-09-05 18:41:31 @tomasino like reddit
2020-09-05 18:41:32 @tomasino depends
2020-09-05 18:41:34 lukee maybe there are many lurkers
2020-09-05 18:42:31 lukee its always funny watching the comments when Gemini comes up. You can even see their face of total non comprehension
2020-09-05 18:42:49 admicos but what if you just used http so we can shove some js into it
2020-09-05 18:43:11 lukee I'm exaggerating of course. I own up to finding Gemini via HN
2020-09-05 18:44:20 lukee I'm a true cult follower now
2020-09-05 18:44:56 CommunistWolf boycott YC \o/
2020-09-05 18:45:06 @tomasino heh
2020-09-05 18:45:13 @tomasino i still go on lobsters, but not HN anymore
2020-09-05 18:45:16 sandra I heard two different, unrelated people talking about Gemini in one day. I don't think they know each other. First the aforementioned Bob from suckless/bitreich, and then later Alex Schroeder.
2020-09-05 18:45:18 @tomasino the comments get nasty
2020-09-05 18:45:34 @tomasino alex hangs in here a bunch
2020-09-05 18:45:45 ⚡ tomasino sighs about bitreich & suckless
2020-09-05 18:46:10 ⚡ djph is clueless to either
2020-09-05 18:46:31 @tomasino you're better off for it
2020-09-05 18:46:37 sandra I've talked to Alex on freenode
2020-09-05 18:46:41 @tomasino just another toxit corner of teh internet
2020-09-05 18:46:47 @tomasino toxic*
2020-09-05 18:47:01 sandra I was the hugest fan of suckless up until kvothe's post :(
2020-09-05 18:47:17 sandra But a lot of sexism in the community though
2020-09-05 18:47:39 sandra Again why am I putting my neck on the line in a publically logged channel?! I am so stupid
2020-09-05 18:47:57 sandra Why can't I zip it with the "this group/person/channel is so-and-so" talk?
2020-09-05 18:48:06 @tomasino we bash suckless pretty often in here. THere's a lot of noise to hide in
2020-09-05 18:48:10 djph perhaps because it needs to be said?
2020-09-05 18:48:27 sandra There are some really nice guys in suckless and some really annoying hubba hubba tits&boobs style guys
2020-09-05 18:48:54 lukee Is it really 2020?
2020-09-05 18:48:57 companion_cube sandra: connect with another nick :p
2020-09-05 18:49:03 @tomasino nah, couldn't be 2020
2020-09-05 18:49:43 sandra :)
2020-09-05 18:49:54 sandra Yeah maybe I will in the future
2020-09-05 18:50:13 sandra (Now I'm gonna get the blame for everything other rando nicks say :( fml)
2020-09-05 18:50:35 companion_cube it's definitely not 2020, I'm listening to lady gaga in a loop
2020-09-05 18:50:42 kvothe it's frustrating, tbh, because I had heard that about the suckless folks years ago, but I got disheartened when I realized that the venn diagram of suckless and 9front folks wasn't completely separate
2020-09-05 18:51:06 kvothe i mean, on the surface separate, but chan culture :/
2020-09-05 18:51:09 companion_cube what's the pb with 9front? (I have no clue)
2020-09-05 18:51:28 djph probably the same "internet anonymity(tm)" as anywhere
2020-09-05 18:51:32 kvothe there's no *problem*, at least far as I can tell
2020-09-05 18:51:37 sandra Suckless people aren't anonymous
2020-09-05 18:51:53 sandra The #suckless IRC channel is not the same as the original suckless devs
2020-09-05 18:52:06 djph i should probably just stop talking since it's obvious that I have no clue what I'm on about
2020-09-05 18:52:06 kvothe but just the fact that they feel the need to defend for the "libertarian culture of the 2000s"
2020-09-05 18:52:07 sandra Suckless has had some really crappy ideas for apps and some brilliant
2020-09-05 18:52:14 sandra Right...
2020-09-05 18:52:21 sandra That bugs me too
2020-09-05 18:52:28 @tomasino yep
2020-09-05 18:52:30 kvothe I just don't want to be involved
2020-09-05 18:52:45 @tomasino well you're welcome here!
2020-09-05 18:52:51 kvothe <3
2020-09-05 18:52:59 @tomasino and you can even have opinions that differ and we won't yell at you
2020-09-05 18:53:14 kvothe smol internet is honestly the best
2020-09-05 18:53:26 @tomasino Unless you try to inline images in gemtext... then i'm gonna yell
2020-09-05 18:53:27 @tomasino :P
2020-09-05 18:53:48 kvothe lol, but wait, we can encode them as base64 and extend gemini clients to
2020-09-05 18:53:51 kvothe (kidding)
2020-09-05 18:54:04 @tomasino hehe
2020-09-05 18:54:13 admicos convert images to unicode braille symbols and inline that instead
2020-09-05 18:54:26 ⚡ lukee shudders
2020-09-05 18:54:27 kvothe actually, someone was doing something like that
2020-09-05 18:54:39 kvothe I've gone and lost my mental bookmark
2020-09-05 18:54:43 @tomasino ahh well
2020-09-05 18:54:45 @tomasino it'll turn up
2020-09-05 18:54:54 @ben https://tilde.team/~ben/suckmore/
2020-09-05 18:54:59 @tomasino everyone notice that i migrated from my old tilde.black over to tilde.team?
2020-09-05 18:55:20 sandra I want to configure av98 to open images in feh
2020-09-05 18:55:24 kvothe side note: sumpy's explorer art is awesome
2020-09-05 18:55:28 sandra I've posted soooo much images to gemini
2020-09-05 18:55:30 kvothe gemini://tilde.team/~sumpygump/explore
2020-09-05 18:55:30 sandra I like images
2020-09-05 18:55:35 @tomasino images are awesome
2020-09-05 18:55:59 kvothe amfora opens them through the HTTP proxy, which *works* but I'd love for it to open natively
2020-09-05 18:56:15 lukee use duckling
2020-09-05 18:56:33 ⚡ tomasino likes ducks
2020-09-05 18:56:38 @tomasino ugh, i'm starving
2020-09-05 18:56:40 @tomasino gonna go make food
2020-09-05 18:56:42 acdw dang i left for lunch and yall had like, a whole conversation lol
2020-09-05 18:56:45 @tomasino keep being kind to each other
2020-09-05 18:56:47 @tomasino ciao
2020-09-05 18:56:49 acdw lol
2020-09-05 18:56:54 acdw i guess if tomasino said so
2020-09-05 18:57:03 kvothe cheers tomasino!
2020-09-05 18:57:35 lukee kvothe: just mis understood what you said there
2020-09-05 18:57:59 acdw admicos: https://portal.mozz.us/gemini/gemini.circumlunar.space/users/acdw/portrait-1.txt BOOM
2020-09-05 18:58:00 lukee was about viewing images
2020-09-05 18:58:08 acdw oh poopy meant to do a pure gemini:// link
2020-09-05 18:58:16 acdw gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/users/acdw/portrait-1.txt
2020-09-05 18:58:27 acdw also https://portal.mozz.us/gemini/gemini.circumlunar.space/users/acdw/art/sleepy-dog.gmi
2020-09-05 18:58:51 lukee it looks just like you
2020-09-05 18:58:52 acdw s/https:\/\/portal.mozz.us\/gemini\//gemini://
2020-09-05 18:58:57 acdw hehe thanks lukee
2020-09-05 18:58:59 kvothe ah neato acdw!
2020-09-05 18:59:01 acdw I am a collection of dots
2020-09-05 18:59:04 admicos neat
2020-09-05 18:59:11 acdw I just used an online ditherizer
2020-09-05 18:59:18 admicos isn't everyone technically just a collection of dots (atoms)
2020-09-05 18:59:37 lukee I hope you have some alt text on that thing
2020-09-05 18:59:42 michel fuzzy dots at the subatomic level
2020-09-05 18:59:47 kvothe text in group chat: a youtube link to gilbert gottfried reading WAP
2020-09-05 18:59:53 acdw hm true fact. lukee I'll have to double-check, I think I did?
2020-09-05 18:59:55 kvothe I, I don't know that I'm ready for this
2020-09-05 18:59:55 lukee some poor screen reader is going to be...confused
2020-09-05 18:59:59 acdw kvothe: you gonna share that here or.....
2020-09-05 19:00:01 admicos also i should really find a way to make my irc client turn gemini links into clickable links
2020-09-05 19:00:16 michel I need to teach my terminal to recognize gemini links as clickable
2020-09-05 19:00:41 acdw I did on the art ones but not in the portrait ones. thanks for the reminder lukee, adding that to my todo-list
2020-09-05 19:00:54 acdw what client? What terminal?
2020-09-05 19:01:03 kvothe acdw: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaF6NfyVqqs
2020-09-05 19:01:12 lukee acdw: actually that image above is text/plain not text/gemini
2020-09-05 19:01:30 lukee so maybe just need to put some description on the link
2020-09-05 19:01:54 kvothe michel++
2020-09-05 19:02:38 acdw lukee: you're right, now I'm looking at it. But I think I'm going to convert it to text/gemini and add alt-text for better rendering on smart clients
2020-09-05 19:02:45 acdw kvothe++
2020-09-05 19:02:53 acdw (gilbert gottfried)++
2020-09-05 19:02:57 acdw oh snap wrong channel
2020-09-05 19:03:12 lukee Wouldnt it be neat if there was a switch in the client to display all jpegs like that?
2020-09-05 19:04:05 acdw oh yes indeed
2020-09-05 19:04:13 acdw *be the change you want to see in the world*
2020-09-05 19:05:20 sandra How is it not text/gemini?
2020-09-05 19:05:25 lukee the only problem is the resolution is v low
2020-09-05 19:05:48 acdw ^ you are right about taht! I mean the best we have is 8x2 braille characters
2020-09-05 19:05:56 lukee sandra: because it is just served as a plain text file
2020-09-05 19:06:07 sandra Oh the mime type
2020-09-05 19:06:09 acdw sandra: I uploaded it as a .txt file, so the server running gemini.circumlunar.space doesn't recognize it as text/gemini
2020-09-05 19:06:10 lukee I like the images here
2020-09-05 19:06:10 sandra Not the file
2020-09-05 19:06:11 lukee https://solar.lowtechmagazine.com/2018/09/how-to-build-a-lowtech-website/
2020-09-05 19:06:16 acdw oh yeah sandra that's it
2020-09-05 19:07:06 acdw lukee: I *love* those images. sloum has a pretty rad ditherer: https://tildegit.org/sloum/lid
2020-09-05 19:07:06 michel kvothe: I'm trying to keep my laptop free of development packages, but ... sometimes it's unavoidable, haha. this terminal is written in Python but some of its dependencies need to be compiled
2020-09-05 19:07:14 sandra I had never heard of lobste.rs I like that they have a mailing list mode
2020-09-05 19:07:37 acdw oh that's really cool, i didn't know that sandra. i might have to sign up for that! (Or tilde.news which is built off the same code)
2020-09-05 19:07:58 michel does Lobste.rs still require an invite? If so I'm happy to invite anyone who needs it
2020-09-05 19:08:13 michel didn't realize tilde.news use the same code. anyone has an invitation for it?
2020-09-05 19:08:20 lukee maybe we should lobby the unicode foundation for 256 more "dithered" characters
2020-09-05 19:08:23 kvothe it's the Facebook growth mechanism
2020-09-05 19:08:24 sandra michel: it does
2020-09-05 19:08:42 michel tilde.news - that's the one with the recent Mozilla employee AMA right?
2020-09-05 19:09:04 admicos that was tildes.net iirc
2020-09-05 19:09:28 michel ah. unrelated?
2020-09-05 19:09:40 admicos yep, not related to any of the tildeverse at all
2020-09-05 19:09:45 lukee acdw: thanks for the link to the ditherer by sloum
2020-09-05 19:10:14 kvothe oh! did sloum put together a ditherer? whoa lemme check that
2020-09-05 19:11:06 kvothe that's so COOL
2020-09-05 19:12:08 acdw michel: I would love an invite to lobste.rs and I can rustle up an invite to tilde.news
2020-09-05 19:12:17 acdw I'll have to wait til tonight to give it to you tho
2020-09-05 19:13:00 acdw lukee: no prob! Yeah it's awesssommmmeee
2020-09-05 19:13:12 acdw tildes.net is pretty alright though
2020-09-05 19:13:40 lukee if it was in Go I'd merge that into duckling - sanitise the web, and its images
2020-09-05 19:13:56 acdw ooh heck yes that'd be awesome
2020-09-05 19:14:29 acdw have you heard of https://www.brow.sh/ ?
2020-09-05 19:15:03 lukee yes its cool, but it needs firefox behind the scenes
2020-09-05 19:15:11 sandra I hadn't heard of that but that's kind of the opposite of what I want from a browser
2020-09-05 19:15:23 lukee and it tries to replicate the whole layout, warts and all
2020-09-05 19:15:28 lukee but a cool project
2020-09-05 19:15:41 sandra Yeah, as an art installation it's fantastic, very impressive
2020-09-05 19:15:52 sandra It's just the opposite of what I've been looking for
2020-09-05 19:16:15 sandra I also wouldn't mind an invite to lobste.rs♥
2020-09-05 19:16:23 acdw lol yeah it's wild af
2020-09-05 19:16:54 kvothe ngl, I really REALLY like plan 9's mothra browser
2020-09-05 19:17:13 acdw fr? I need to try plan 9 in a vm someday
2020-09-05 19:17:23 acdw what do you like baou t mothra?
2020-09-05 19:17:45 kvothe it renders just enough gfx to be usable, but doesn't do javascript
2020-09-05 19:17:59 sandra It's super weird to me that plan 9 is being unearthed. I took my whole art slogan from the ooooold plan 9 web site 20 years ago
2020-09-05 19:18:00 kvothe it's like a GUI version of elinks
2020-09-05 19:18:00 acdw oh that sounds aight
2020-09-05 19:18:07 sandra Before suckless and 9front and any of that
2020-09-05 19:18:18 acdw what's yr art slogan?
2020-09-05 19:18:22 kvothe oh that's really cool, sandra
2020-09-05 19:18:33 sandra Idiomdrottning demonstrates a new and often cleaner way to solve most systems problems. The system as a whole is likely to feel tantalizingly familiar to culture users but at the same time quite foreign. ← was originally "music users" instead of "culture users" back when I did mostly music
2020-09-05 19:18:42 ⚡ acdw remembers 20 years ago was 2000 ... :o
2020-09-05 19:18:45 sandra Which I haven't done in a long time, I switched to drawing
2020-09-05 19:18:54 kvothe acdw: nope, no thanks, don't like
2020-09-05 19:19:04 acdw lolol
2020-09-05 19:19:14 acdw sandra: oh nice
2020-09-05 19:19:28 kvothe someone was talking about lil pump in anonradio com chat yesterday
2020-09-05 19:19:36 sandra The "culture" was meant to be art & literature. Not the fash seme for "culture". I should change it again
2020-09-05 19:19:37 kvothe and I looked him up on wikipedia
2020-09-05 19:19:44 sandra How about just "art" I guess
2020-09-05 19:19:44 kvothe actually born in 2000
2020-09-05 19:20:00 lukee "culture" is a somewhat overarching term
2020-09-05 19:20:06 acdw sandra: I didn't take it that way
2020-09-05 19:20:12 easeout i misread "music users" as "magic users"
2020-09-05 19:20:18 acdw fash-way I mean, just thought, you know --- the way people do things with each other
2020-09-05 19:20:31 acdw kvothe: yeah everyone famous is a baby these days
2020-09-05 19:20:46 acdw magic users are yes
2020-09-05 19:21:22 acdw sandra: you're https://idiomdrottning.org/?
2020-09-05 19:21:33 sandra yeah
2020-09-05 19:21:46 sandra Prooooobably better known as gemini://idiomdrottning.org
2020-09-05 19:21:47 acdw i like it a lot :)
2020-09-05 19:21:55 acdw yeah I've been seing that one on the 'COM
2020-09-05 19:22:11 sandra Thank you, acdw, that is very sweet
2020-09-05 19:22:17 acdw :D
2020-09-05 19:22:41 acdw here's a Q: why isn't the "standard subdomain" of HTTP, well, http ? like, http.google.com, http.whatever.com
2020-09-05 19:22:42 sandra Yeah I've been "smol html" since 2009. I've swapped out the underlying backend code a couple of times
2020-09-05 19:22:53 acdw instead of wwww
2020-09-05 19:22:57 acdw s/w$//
2020-09-05 19:23:02 sandra Because the domain is not a protocol…?
2020-09-05 19:23:13 acdw I know the feeling of swapping out a site's backend a ton lol!
2020-09-05 19:23:15 easeout because www was so cool to type in 1995
2020-09-05 19:23:29 acdw Yeah, but like, a lot of gemini sites are gem.example.com or gemini.example.com
2020-09-05 19:23:32 easeout now we even have a ligature for it
2020-09-05 19:23:32 sandra But https://idiomdrottning.org/about is the same layout/CSS I've had for 11 years♥ that used to be the front page but a few years ago I switched the front page to be the current image gallery
2020-09-05 19:23:35 lukee back in the day when you had to type "http://"
2020-09-05 19:23:38 acdw haha you're right on that easeout
2020-09-05 19:23:50 sandra It feels weird to type the same thing twice
2020-09-05 19:23:58 acdw aitch tee tee pee colon slash slash double u double u double u dot
2020-09-05 19:24:11 acdw that's my problem. I don't like typing gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space
2020-09-05 19:24:18 sandra Same AF!
2020-09-05 19:24:19 acdw it's a dumb compaint but
2020-09-05 19:24:36 easeout well like, ideally port 80 would go to one server and port 1965 would go to another, so
2020-09-05 19:24:45 kvothe the pin number problem :^)
2020-09-05 19:24:52 easeout the subdomain is not really necessary at all
2020-09-05 19:24:54 acdw oh yeah that site is rad sandra, making me want to redesign mine ... again
2020-09-05 19:25:21 acdw easeout: yes, that's what I'm starting to think. Shame b/c I got suckered into the "always www" crowd when I was ssetting up my personal domain
2020-09-05 19:25:27 acdw I guess I'll just ... have to change it lol
2020-09-05 19:25:42 acdw what's the pin number problem?
2020-09-05 19:25:48 easeout yeah i prefer to just forward to the base domain.
2020-09-05 19:26:02 kvothe you know, like automatic teller machine machines, or atm machines
2020-09-05 19:26:05 sandra I have www. setup too, but not gemini.
2020-09-05 19:26:22 sandra I don't have a redirect so if I used cookies it'd get confused
2020-09-05 19:26:37 sandra They just both point to the same server
2020-09-05 19:26:39 sandra In nginx
2020-09-05 19:26:51 michel acdw: what's a good email for you?
2020-09-05 19:26:58 michel oh I see your private chat, one sec
2020-09-05 19:26:59 acdw I think, Ideally, I'd want www. -> http:, gem. -> gemini:, gopher. -> gohper:, etc
2020-09-05 19:27:06 acdw hehe
2020-09-05 19:27:32 michel question to everyone -- should I add gopher:// URL detection to Kitty in addition to adding gemini://, or just gemini is enough these days?
2020-09-05 19:27:35 acdw oh also I keep meaning to respond to your bread thing but I haven't yet
2020-09-05 19:27:43 acdw michel: do you browse gopher a lot?
2020-09-05 19:27:48 sandra I also have email and Jabber on that same server
2020-09-05 19:28:13 sandra My Jabber address is the same as my email address. But, I'm thinking of adding an alias —
2020-09-05 19:28:18 sandra Holy shit there just was a weird flash outside
2020-09-05 19:28:34 sandra It's a full moon, I think moon phases are global right? IIRC?
2020-09-05 19:28:54 sandra — I'm thinking of adding an alias so I can have my Fedi, Jabber and email all three be the same
2020-09-05 19:28:54 lukee michel: what is kitty?
2020-09-05 19:29:03 sandra You can't have periods in the username on Fedi.
2020-09-05 19:29:15 kvothe side note, some proprietary software I use at work has an option to display the phase of the moon in the corner between horizontal and vertical scrollbars
2020-09-05 19:29:22 kvothe it's kind of the best
2020-09-05 19:30:12 admicos one day you glance at the corner, no icon. it turns out the moon has disappeared
2020-09-05 19:30:24 sandra man 6 xphoon
2020-09-05 19:30:40 michel lukee: a terminal emulator that's GL accelerated. https://ithub.com/kovidgoyal/kitty
2020-09-05 19:31:00 michel I use it because it does font ligatures, mostly. so I see a greater than sign when I type >=
2020-09-05 19:31:11 sandra Can it do proportional well?
2020-09-05 19:31:23 michel acdw: not that much, I'm trying to use more Gemini - but some resources are still gopher only right?
2020-09-05 19:31:26 kvothe lol
2020-09-05 19:31:50 michel sandra: not sure. It's a terminal so I mostly use monospace fonts (like Fira Code)
2020-09-05 19:31:59 michel gtg all, will catch up later
2020-09-05 19:32:04 sandra Thanx michel
2020-09-05 19:32:05 kvothe ciao michel o/
2020-09-05 19:32:11 sandra I have proportional in emacs but monospace in terminals
2020-09-05 19:32:33 lukee michel: so the idea is that you have a clickable link that launches some app for the protocol?
2020-09-05 19:32:51 acdw oh michel left. well for posterity: gopher is still a thriving protocol
2020-09-05 19:33:05 lukee ah well
2020-09-05 19:33:32 lukee but do the gopher inhabitants *want* to be connected to?
2020-09-05 19:33:47 lukee I think it is not entirely clear
2020-09-05 19:33:52 acdw sandra: the author/maintainer of Kitty refuses to support fonts that are proportional or even that aren't properly marked (however that is) as monospace. I quit using it for a while b/c of that, I wanted a font that wouldn't work.
2020-09-05 19:34:03 acdw lukee: good q. who knows
2020-09-05 19:34:27 sandra Urvxt looks messed up with a non-monospace font
2020-09-05 19:34:33 lukee but still, that shouldnt drive the decision, just a random observation!
2020-09-05 19:34:40 acdw haha eys
2020-09-05 19:34:43 acdw s/eys/yes
2020-09-05 19:34:59 acdw yeah, most terminals do -- they draw based on rectangular cells I think/
2020-09-05 19:34:59 acdw ?
2020-09-05 19:35:33 sandra Yeah.
2020-09-05 19:36:36 admicos if only kitty didn't mess up with iosevka's '=' ligature
2020-09-05 19:36:58 admicos it's special in that the ligature technically goes on forever (or something like that, kinda forgot the dedails)
2020-09-05 19:38:05 lukee Shouldnt we all be using unicode now not ligatures?
2020-09-05 19:38:45 lukee (I mean aesthetic things like a pretty "ff" is ok, but the weirder ones, just have unicode code points)
2020-09-05 19:39:27 easeout character encoding and font ligatures are separate concerns
2020-09-05 19:39:33 easeout or, should be, right?
2020-09-05 19:39:47 lukee like <= being turned into ≤
2020-09-05 19:40:00 easeout oic. right that's not a ligature
2020-09-05 19:40:10 acdw yeah? idk honestly
2020-09-05 19:40:16 easeout what i see on my screen rendering in fira code on the left side of your message is a ligature
2020-09-05 19:40:18 lukee no but some programming fonts make a virtue of it
2020-09-05 19:40:35 easeout i think you're conflating two concepts
2020-09-05 19:40:38 acdw one thing I do like is haskell accepts the actual unicode characters as operators as well as the ascii versions
2020-09-05 19:40:39 lukee possibly
2020-09-05 19:40:42 sandra I use lambda, ≤ and ≥ but not the others
2020-09-05 19:40:57 sandra I liked those two because they help me make fewer mistakes not more mistakes
2020-09-05 19:41:13 sandra easeout: It is implemented as a ligature
2020-09-05 19:41:31 easeout when i type a < and a = next to one another as <=, i see a special glyph in my font. that's a ligature. the less than or equals _character_ is not a ligature over multiple characters that replaces multiple glyphs, it's its own one-character glyph
2020-09-05 19:41:41 lukee I see ligatures as a legacy convenience for writing in ascii
2020-09-05 19:41:48 sandra As in, they use the same mechanics that were originally implemented to do ligatures like ffi, tt, fl etc but use it to display ≥
2020-09-05 19:41:53 lukee when it comes to mathematical symbols etc
2020-09-05 19:42:03 easeout i would agree with that lukee
2020-09-05 19:42:09 acdw well most programming languages still only use ascii for symbols
2020-09-05 19:42:18 lukee yes, but now we have unicode
2020-09-05 19:42:19 easeout they are nice for programming, but for fancy math symbols you probably want the math characters
2020-09-05 19:42:38 lukee well, I dont really have a horse in this race
2020-09-05 19:42:44 acdw depending on langauge, you could implement the unicode characters as operators
2020-09-05 19:42:50 acdw yeah me neither lol
2020-09-05 19:43:13 admicos how would you even type the unicode symbol for, say, >=
2020-09-05 19:43:29 lukee well that presupposes a certain kind of UI
2020-09-05 19:43:36 lukee that means it is currently hard
2020-09-05 19:44:01 lukee we have inherited the ascii symbol set from our forebears
2020-09-05 19:44:17 easeout today, you'd probably use symbols that are easy to type while typing, but maybe render from that to something better for reading. like the way markdown might give you smart quotes or something.
2020-09-05 19:44:20 lukee so they made it easy to do ascii
2020-09-05 19:44:40 admicos cursed idea: keyboard firmware that processes ligatures as unicode symbols
2020-09-05 19:44:49 easeout or we could bring back APL keyboards
2020-09-05 19:44:49 sandra admicos typing the unicode symbol for ≥ is easy with compose key
2020-09-05 19:44:59 sandra ♥ ≥ →
2020-09-05 19:45:01 sandra etc
2020-09-05 19:45:18 sandra https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compose_key
2020-09-05 19:45:23 sandra I love it♥
2020-09-05 19:45:35 lukee I think Perl has some native unicode operators?
2020-09-05 19:45:37 easeout oh it's option-comma
2020-09-05 19:45:58 easeout macOS has a layer of symbols for keys when you hold option or shift-option.
2020-09-05 19:46:25 easeout yeah leave it to perl
2020-09-05 19:46:36 lukee will we be effectively stuck with ascii for programming for the next 100 years?
2020-09-05 19:47:04 @tomasino I have kitty mark both gopher and gemini links
2020-09-05 19:47:05 lukee certainly I find it a pain with current UI
2020-09-05 19:47:10 @tomasino It's handy
2020-09-05 19:47:26 @tomasino Compose key ftw
2020-09-05 19:47:52 easeout it might be a while, lukee. so far we have only ever added onto the standard key set with modifier keys and stuff. we haven't, like, removed keys to add others
2020-09-05 19:48:30 easeout so lots of things are, you know, tuned to that
2020-09-05 19:48:44 acdw i need to fix up my keyboard ... compose key, caps as ctrl, maybe a hyper key
2020-09-05 19:49:06 acdw i'm thinking caps->ctrl, ctrl->hyper, menu->compose ??
2020-09-05 19:49:19 easeout i do love caps to ctrl
2020-09-05 19:49:19 lukee I'd like a key on my keyboard that shifts into a unicode mode
2020-09-05 19:49:35 lukee I then start typing the name of the thing, and it pattern matches until I find it
2020-09-05 19:49:47 sandra I have the hhkb so ctrl is already at the caps position
2020-09-05 19:49:57 ▬▬▶ idf has joined #gemini
2020-09-05 19:49:57 sandra I think that ctrl used to be there on some older keyboards
2020-09-05 19:49:58 easeout oh i love the feel of that keyboard sandra
2020-09-05 19:50:06 lukee like an "input method editor" - if you need to insert non european charactrs
2020-09-05 19:50:07 acdw lukee: that sounds awesome
2020-09-05 19:50:28 acdw one day, i will afford a fancy keyboard like the hhkb. one day
2020-09-05 19:50:30 easeout i'd dig that lukee. we have that on phones; seems doable to put on your pc
2020-09-05 19:50:36 sandra One of the reasons I've stayed with emacs is the input modes. Kind of need them since I type so much Swedish.
2020-09-05 19:51:09 acdw is tehre anything emacs *wont* do?
2020-09-05 19:51:15 admicos coffee?
2020-09-05 19:51:20 admicos (well, it probably can)
2020-09-05 19:51:29 acdw M-x coffee-mode
2020-09-05 19:51:37 sandra Yeah but it's a package
2020-09-05 19:51:43 sandra I used it sooo much writing my thesis
2020-09-05 19:51:58 sandra It's not for making actual coffee but for writing CoffeeScript
2020-09-05 19:51:58 lukee easeout: and to make it better than phones, it would only show emoji *last* in the list of matches!
2020-09-05 19:52:02 sandra Which is what I was using
2020-09-05 19:52:13 easeout last in the list?
2020-09-05 19:52:25 acdw lolol
2020-09-05 19:52:30 easeout oh you mean after word matches
2020-09-05 19:52:32 lukee the list of unicode point matches
2020-09-05 19:52:40 easeout oh oh emoji after other characters.
2020-09-05 19:52:41 acdw M-x brew-coffee-mode
2020-09-05 19:52:42 easeout got it
2020-09-05 19:53:05 lukee I'm sick of my phone wanting me to insert emoji into everything
2020-09-05 19:53:09 admicos i sometimes think of making a gemini client for vim
2020-09-05 19:53:13 easeout can you turn off emoji suggestions?
2020-09-05 19:53:24 acdw admicos: do it! that'd be rad
2020-09-05 19:53:33 kvothe that would be awesome :D
2020-09-05 19:53:38 admicos acdw: the only problem is i have no clue about vimscript
2020-09-05 19:53:42 acdw oh lol
2020-09-05 19:53:48 lukee probably I should try to
2020-09-05 19:53:52 admicos maybe w/ neovim and lua
2020-09-05 19:53:53 acdw the tricky thing, i think, would be TLS
2020-09-05 19:54:03 admicos shell out to openssl
2020-09-05 19:54:10 acdw oh yeah duh lol
2020-09-05 19:54:16 lukee shell out to gemget - it can do all the heavy lifting
2020-09-05 19:54:30 admicos gemget + a vim gemtext syntax highlighter
2020-09-05 19:54:48 acdw somebody wrote this so I think it's definitely doable: https://github.com/soywod/iris.vim
2020-09-05 19:54:54 lukee can you make the links active in vim?
2020-09-05 19:55:08 admicos lukee: vim's help system has some linking stuff going on
2020-09-05 19:55:18 admicos i assume something similar can be done
2020-09-05 19:55:21 lukee (On a PC here, I have no idea)
2020-09-05 19:55:49 kvothe vimwiki has selectable links
2020-09-05 19:56:10 kvothe hit enter on a word, url, whatever, and it'll open it up appropriately
2020-09-05 19:56:25 lukee sounds like the infrastructure is there
2020-09-05 19:56:38 lukee you just have to make something a link and catch the activation
2020-09-05 19:57:07 kvothe see also: https://mastodon.sdf.org/@kvothe/104758916305983524
2020-09-05 19:57:09 lukee a simple stack for history
2020-09-05 19:57:19 lukee job done
2020-09-05 19:58:37 lukee beware: writing your own client is v addictive
2020-09-05 19:58:53 lukee in a delicious way
2020-09-05 19:58:54 sandra I have some ideas for hacks on av98 before I'd start my own
2020-09-05 19:59:22 admicos lukee: tell that to moonlander
2020-09-05 19:59:26 sandra As in figure out the terminal's height and width and use that for paging. Use a z for that a la ed
2020-09-05 19:59:57 kvothe it also pipes to less with 'l'
2020-09-05 20:00:23 sandra But when using t to hop around it first cats out everything instead of just the visible head
2020-09-05 20:00:36 sandra Also when using within emacs the l doesn't work great
2020-09-05 20:00:57 kvothe fair fair
2020-09-05 20:01:05 lukee I think all the pages describing the clients people have built, say something like "Tried to put together a Gemini client. Surprised how easy it was, fell down a rabbit hole"
2020-09-05 20:01:46 lukee "and I'm still digging a better burrow..."
2020-09-05 20:02:08 lukee I love seeing that kind of stuff. Shows people are having fun
2020-09-05 20:02:16 kvothe :D same lukee
2020-09-05 20:05:28 acdw one of the best parts of the protocol tbh, is the tinkery-ness of it all
2020-09-05 20:05:51 lukee admicos: It seemed a shame the author of Moonlander seemed to give up in frustration when hitting a quirk of the platform
2020-09-05 20:06:06 @tomasino Thought you said writing your own client in V is addictive
2020-09-05 20:06:16 lukee yes
2020-09-05 20:06:19 acdw that too
2020-09-05 20:06:37 acdw oh you know what, we should have a rosetta-code-style page for gemini clients/servers
2020-09-05 20:06:46 acdw nose-goes on brainfuck
2020-09-05 20:06:54 lukee sometimes the addiction takes you to a dead end
2020-09-05 20:07:02 admicos lukee: it's the fact that moonlander tried to do text handling completely from scratch, and it's harder than it first seems
2020-09-05 20:07:05 lukee or a seeming dead end
2020-09-05 20:07:27 lukee it was an admirable attempt, not one I ever would have considerd
2020-09-05 20:07:49 easeout acdw there is a github link collection page
2020-09-05 20:08:00 @tomasino What language was moonlander in
2020-09-05 20:08:02 acdw yep yep!
2020-09-05 20:08:15 admicos tomasino: rust (plus gtk)
2020-09-05 20:08:16 acdw ooh someone should write a BIOS that boots up and lets you browse gemini
2020-09-05 20:08:28 acdw ooh and AND we should write code that would run on the original gemini computers
2020-09-05 20:08:59 lukee tomasino: rust wasnt the hard bit, it was writing their own text renderer in Cairo
2020-09-05 20:09:07 admicos (also i am trying to find a way to say "i made moonlander lol" without coming across rude or whatever)
2020-09-05 20:09:30 acdw haha I am not taking it that way at least admicos
2020-09-05 20:09:31 lukee Oh! :)
2020-09-05 20:10:04 @tomasino I haven't tried that one. I need to finish my Ada book and practice and make a client
2020-09-05 20:10:06 lukee you can tell us the real story
2020-09-05 20:10:41 admicos imho moonlander's still the best looking gui client i have come across
2020-09-05 20:11:05 admicos the story is that i should've just used native gtk widgets instead of drawing into a canvas
2020-09-05 20:11:13 lukee will you return to it?
2020-09-05 20:11:15 admicos because text, especially non-monospace text, is really hard
2020-09-05 20:11:19 lukee yes
2020-09-05 20:11:56 admicos well, i was messing around with some ideas on how to replace the renderer without losing most of the polished rendering, but stuff happened
2020-09-05 20:12:13 lukee fair enough, one for the back burner
2020-09-05 20:13:16 lukee I think we can all learn from one another. I love that there is a real diversity of clients
2020-09-05 20:13:25 admicos the initial plan for moonlander was to actually be gpu accelerated, but i quickly realized i have no idea how to do graphics
2020-09-05 20:13:29 @tomasino Have any pictures of moonlander in action?
2020-09-05 20:13:42 easeout gpu accelerated text rendering is a tall order
2020-09-05 20:13:46 easeout to do yourself
2020-09-05 20:13:49 admicos there was one in the original announcement mail iirc but not sure if the link's still working
2020-09-05 20:15:46 @tomasino https://files.ecmelberk.com/img/1589891854.png
2020-09-05 20:15:50 @tomasino 404
2020-09-05 20:16:51 admicos yeah, it got removed when i was cleaning my unnamed image uploads
2020-09-05 20:17:32 @tomasino Ahh well
2020-09-05 20:18:44 admicos it seems to be compiling quite fast for rust standards, so i can get you an image in a minute or two
2020-09-05 20:21:01 @tomasino Fun!
2020-09-05 20:21:06 @tomasino I like pretty things
2020-09-05 20:21:55 admicos aah it doesn't seem to connect to my own page. i guess i'll just screenshot circumlunar
2020-09-05 20:22:16 admicos https://ebc.li/kiv5.png
2020-09-05 20:22:39 acdw oh that is nice admicos. clean
2020-09-05 20:23:03 lukee nice
2020-09-05 20:25:43 easeout smooth boi
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2020-09-05 20:30:20 lukee I just spotted there are some updates on GUS - including "latest pages" link
2020-09-05 20:30:52 lukee (links generated are slightly malformed, but you can hack them)
2020-09-05 20:30:58 lukee must be a WIP
2020-09-05 20:31:17 acdw oh nice
2020-09-05 20:31:40 acdw at some point I wanna set up a spacewalk that updates based on GUS's known servers
2020-09-05 20:35:25 kvothe much excite! sloum's `lid` script is awesome
2020-09-05 20:37:10 acdw right!? it's sooo cool
2020-09-05 20:39:08 kvothe pretty sure I'm gonna use it like all the time *laughs*
2020-09-05 20:39:23 kvothe well, for photos on gemini
2020-09-05 20:40:54 acdw awesome!
2020-09-05 20:41:04 acdw i look forward to it :)
2020-09-05 20:41:26 acdw does it dither to braille characters? Or just PNGs etc?
2020-09-05 20:45:16 michel lukee: back for a bit from my phone, I'm at the barber and.will go to lunch after this
2020-09-05 20:45:38 acdw have a good haircut!
2020-09-05 20:45:48 michel Good point re not being sure if gopher folks like being linked. Not sure where to ask them 😅
2020-09-05 20:45:58 michel acdw: thanks!
2020-09-05 20:46:14 @tomasino #gopher
2020-09-05 20:46:19 @tomasino :)
2020-09-05 20:46:37 michel Is there a gemini interface to wikipedia? I know there's a gopher one
2020-09-05 20:46:42 acdw :D
2020-09-05 20:46:42 acdw I'd say go ahead and link to gopher sites yrself, since you're just making the links clickable in kitty right?
2020-09-05 20:46:56 acdw https://portal.mozz.us/gemini/gempaper.strangled.net/mirrorlist/
2020-09-05 20:47:05 acdw shoot, again: gemini://gempaper.strangled.net/mirrorlist/
2020-09-05 20:47:24 acdw has a list of gemini gateways/interfaces. wikipedia is on there
2020-09-05 20:47:33 @tomasino Twice!
2020-09-05 20:47:44 lukee michel: there are two linked from here: gemini://gempaper.strangled.net/mirrorlist/
2020-09-05 20:47:46 ⚡ paper looks at #gemini and sees his gemini page posted, nice
2020-09-05 20:48:02 acdw hehe ye
2020-09-05 20:48:11 acdw that's a great resource, paper
2020-09-05 20:48:24 paper I am glad you find it useful
2020-09-05 20:48:34 lukee or use duckling
2020-09-05 20:48:44 lukee those have the advantage that you can search
2020-09-05 20:48:54 paper I haven't been active on gemini lately, so I didn't add anything new
2020-09-05 20:49:04 acdw is duckling hosted soemwhere? Or is it just the software
2020-09-05 20:49:10 paper if you know about something, tell me
2020-09-05 20:49:14 ⚡ acdw realizes he should've read the news about duckling
2020-09-05 20:49:22 lukee not yet
2020-09-05 20:49:40 lukee just the software ATM
2020-09-05 20:49:47 acdw oh okay. it sounds relaly cool!
2020-09-05 20:49:57 acdw maybe I could try setting it up on breadpunk ............
2020-09-05 20:49:59 acdw maybe
2020-09-05 20:50:05 acdw this *is* a long weekend
2020-09-05 20:50:26 lukee its just a single Go binary that acts as a server
2020-09-05 20:50:55 paper hmm, what's duckling?
2020-09-05 20:51:05 lukee its an http proxy for gemini
2020-09-05 20:51:30 lukee gemini://gemini.marmaladefoo.com/blog/1-Sep-2020_The_Duckling_Proxy.gmi
2020-09-05 20:51:45 michel lukee: paper: thanks!
2020-09-05 20:52:12 paper oh, nice
2020-09-05 20:52:19 lukee So if you have a client that can use a scheme specific proxy (like Amfora/AV-98 and others) it can access the web via duckling
2020-09-05 20:53:04 michel Oh sweet, letting gemini users browse http rather than the reverse
2020-09-05 20:53:13 acdw oh yes! Or you could just point it to, say, gemini://duckling.example/http/example.com, or something
2020-09-05 20:53:24 acdw that *is* awesome
2020-09-05 20:53:35 lukee yes, if an instance gets hosted somewhere
2020-09-05 20:55:22 michel Nice since the two wikipedia gateways on paper's list seem broken right now
2020-09-05 20:55:32 acdw oh lame
2020-09-05 20:55:32 lukee https://imgur.com/a/QirSdV2
2020-09-05 20:56:35 acdw lukee, that's really well done! It looks great
2020-09-05 20:56:54 paper michel: just checked them and they both work fine
2020-09-05 20:57:12 lukee It also shows some unreleased GemiNaut UI tweaks as well
2020-09-05 20:57:39 lukee like the citation style links are "wired up" to the targets and the link lists removed.
2020-09-05 20:57:41 paper do you have a client with 1x (input) status code support?
2020-09-05 20:57:47 paper michel: ^
2020-09-05 20:58:12 lukee its one way to deal with very link dense pages like wikipedia
2020-09-05 20:59:22 acdw is that geminaut ui tweak you're tlaking about ... the blue [1], etc in ther? is those links!?
2020-09-05 20:59:55 lukee yes. In the source GMI it would be "some text [3]" followed, further down by a link => url [3] the title
2020-09-05 21:00:20 lukee its one of the options in how you configure duckling
2020-09-05 21:00:40 lukee well, to emit numbered links and citations. The fancy wiring up is done by the client
2020-09-05 21:02:01 lukee but the logic to wire them up is pretty straightforward. 2 passes.
2020-09-05 21:02:15 lukee pass 1: collect all the links and their indexes
2020-09-05 21:02:29 lukee pass 2: wire up any matching citations in the plain text
2020-09-05 21:02:33 acdw mm that is Toight
2020-09-05 21:02:44 lukee (optional - make them superscript if your renderer supports it)
2020-09-05 21:02:57 admicos but what if the citations use weird unicode superscript characters like i do
2020-09-05 21:03:05 acdw oh. beautiful. honestly Geminaut is my fav client out there. I just don't have windows :(
2020-09-05 21:04:10 lukee This is the source GMI that is rendered https://imgur.com/a/LEKQ4oR
2020-09-05 21:04:37 lukee admicos: if it becomes a common enough idiom, it could be added as another matching pattern
2020-09-05 21:04:54 paper acdw same ;(
2020-09-05 21:04:58 admicos lukee: fair enough
2020-09-05 21:04:59 lukee well all the principles can be applied to other clients
2020-09-05 21:05:54 admicos also i was looking at some markdown editors in gtk to figure out what people use to render simple documents, and everyone just shoves webkit on it and calls it a day :/
2020-09-05 21:06:30 lukee You could try to build on top of source code editors
2020-09-05 21:06:34 lukee like scintilla?
2020-09-05 21:07:14 lukee but webkit is a bit heavyweight
2020-09-05 21:07:44 lukee but it will do the hard text rendering for you. It depends what part of the problem you are interested to experiment with
2020-09-05 21:07:48 acdw I know I use the weird unicode small numbers too
2020-09-05 21:07:53 admicos cursed idea: fork netsurf and use its renderer for gemini
2020-09-05 21:08:07 acdw yus
2020-09-05 21:08:09 acdw do it admicos
2020-09-05 21:08:10 lukee I had a look at netsurf briefly
2020-09-05 21:08:21 lukee it is all in C and if could be done if you like writing C
2020-09-05 21:08:40 admicos i guess i could simply shove in a gmi -> html proxy in the front of it
2020-09-05 21:08:43 admicos and call it a day
2020-09-05 21:09:05 xj9 more netsurf the better
2020-09-05 21:36:43 lukee hey folks - I'm calling it a night. o/
2020-09-05 21:36:56 lukee has quit (quit: Leaving)
2020-09-05 21:39:12 @tomasino night!
2020-09-05 21:44:12 kevinsan admicos, your rendering looks great. who needs proportional fonts? worry about that when you can be bothered. direct canvas opens up opportunities.
2020-09-05 21:45:30 kevinsan (like bare metal on low end hardware, old android phones, etc.)
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2020-09-06 00:27:52 michel paper: this was with Deedum for Android. I'll recheck with Elpher
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2020-09-06 09:39:54 kevinsan I notice a new version of android client Två (0.4.0 beta) has been released - https://www.oppenlab.net/pr/tva/
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2020-09-06 10:14:18 sandra lukee: The numbered links are kind of frustrating when I'm on a browser that already numbers links, like AV-98
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2020-09-06 11:13:33 lukee sandra: there are different flags you can use
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2020-09-06 11:14:13 lukee for example, if you just want the citation markers but rely on your client to number the links you can just use the -m but not the -n flag
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2020-09-06 11:45:07 sandra lukee: Wait, what app are we talking about?
2020-09-06 11:45:44 sandra Does Duckling have flags?
2020-09-06 11:46:39 sandra I've been really happy with the "copy" mode that md2gemini uses. It doesn't have citation markers or numbers.
2020-09-06 11:49:47 lukee yes, I thought that's what you were talking about (or html2gmi which works the same way)
2020-09-06 11:53:45 sandra I was talking about that example output from Wikipedia in gmi format that you posted earlier. I thought that was from duckling.
2020-09-06 11:54:00 sandra It has the numbered links that I often see on gemspace.
2020-09-06 11:56:40 lukee I'm with you now. Yes that is just one mode of use. That is the way I have it configured to integrate with GemiNaut
2020-09-06 12:00:54 lukee So here is wikipedia page using duckling configured not to show any citation style markers, or link numbering
2020-09-06 12:00:56 lukee https://imgur.com/a/FiWzgmG
2020-09-06 12:02:03 sandra Nice♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥
2020-09-06 12:02:27 lukee thanks!
2020-09-06 12:03:58 lukee all the various flags are on the github page: https://github.com/LukeEmmet/duckling-proxy
2020-09-06 12:04:29 lukee and if you just want a command line app there is html2gmi which works similarly: https://github.com/LukeEmmet/html2gmi
2020-09-06 12:04:47 sandra Right, you start the daemon with the flags, but once the proxy is running the users cant set the flags
2020-09-06 12:05:01 lukee that is on the todo list
2020-09-06 12:07:39 lukee The other integration I'm working on for GemiNaut is directly with html2gmi, and that integration puts a mini control panel at the top of each rendered web page
2020-09-06 12:07:42 lukee https://imgur.com/a/CgAP76I
2020-09-06 12:08:07 lukee so you can actually flip the rendering mode on a page by page basis if you want, or click on a link to launch the browser
2020-09-06 12:09:04 lukee For example some pages you want to strip off the "navigational cruft" to get the "real" content
2020-09-06 12:10:31 lukee Its just a question of building the most natural UI that works for people
2020-09-06 12:42:55 kvothe heya, folks!
2020-09-06 12:45:45 ⚡ autumnova waves at kvothe
2020-09-06 12:45:54 kvothe o/ autumnova
2020-09-06 12:46:31 kvothe How are y'all this fine morning, afternoon, evening, 12:46 UTC?
2020-09-06 12:47:07 autumnova Still kinda tired from yesterday, otherwise fine. What about you?
2020-09-06 12:48:16 kvothe it's COFFEE O CLOCK! \o/ Doing pretty well, otherwise. Might goof around on plan 9 a bit this morning
2020-09-06 12:49:00 kvothe also, I should probably rig up my own SPACEWALK, it occurs to me that there's more Gemini out there than is available from CAPCOM and SPACEWALK
2020-09-06 12:51:34 autumnova I still need to learn quite a lot on what I can use Gemini for.
2020-09-06 12:54:21 kvothe a nice change of scenery from the big web :D
2020-09-06 12:59:09 autumnova It is. I'm just no to familiar with the capabilities for now.
2020-09-06 13:00:04 kvothe gotcha! enjoy the exploration
2020-09-06 13:01:03 autumnova AstroBotany still blows my mind :D
2020-09-06 13:02:39 kvothe whoa that's cool! I haven't looked at that yet
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2020-09-06 14:17:39 @tomasino so many possibilities when you consider client certs as user auth
2020-09-06 14:18:02 felix Do tell!
2020-09-06 14:19:03 @tomasino solderpunk did some musing about personal apps that's worth exploring
2020-09-06 14:19:33 @tomasino basically you write yourself a client that wraps an application specific cert and hits the service that only does stuff for that cert
2020-09-06 14:19:43 @tomasino micro-gemini experiences that are secured
2020-09-06 14:20:32 @tomasino you could also do some neat interactive fiction, complete with inventory
2020-09-06 14:20:45 @tomasino maybe take the lone-wolf books and use one as a model
2020-09-06 14:22:14 companion_cube is solderpunk gone for good?
2020-09-06 14:23:10 @tomasino nope
2020-09-06 14:23:23 @tomasino he never came around IRC much. It's always a nice little surprise when he does
2020-09-06 14:23:34 @tomasino but he's still active in the mailing list and on fedi
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2020-09-06 14:24:32 felix I see!
2020-09-06 14:25:15 @tomasino polls would be cool too
2020-09-06 14:25:20 @tomasino or even full tests
2020-09-06 14:25:32 @tomasino multiple choice, of course
2020-09-06 14:26:02 felix As long as it's natural.
2020-09-06 14:26:40 autumnova The only thing I'm really missing are markdown styled tables.
2020-09-06 14:26:44 felix If these additions start feeling forced, it's probably better to back away.
2020-09-06 14:26:45 autumnova Otherwise I'm very happy.
2020-09-06 14:27:10 @tomasino the stuff i described so far is all possible with the spec as-is. no additions needed
2020-09-06 14:27:20 felix Oh, for reading material Gemini is fine.
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2020-09-06 14:27:51 lukee o/
2020-09-06 14:27:56 felix Hello!
2020-09-06 14:28:02 lukee hi felix
2020-09-06 14:28:17 @tomasino o/
2020-09-06 14:28:25 lukee hi tomasino
2020-09-06 14:28:52 lukee what's the topic exercising the gemini crowd today?
2020-09-06 14:29:42 @tomasino felix was asking about some other possibilities of things that could be done with gemini
2020-09-06 14:29:53 @tomasino i was tossing out some ideas
2020-09-06 14:30:18 @tomasino i don't think anyone has made a poll yet, have they?
2020-09-06 14:30:39 @tomasino especially not one that requires a client-cert to get in and then limits responses
2020-09-06 14:30:44 lukee problem is we dont really have any kind of useful "form" element
2020-09-06 14:31:02 felix Alex Schroeder prototyped a complementary protocol I think.
2020-09-06 14:31:13 @tomasino he's got Titan for wiki stuff
2020-09-06 14:31:21 felix That's the one.
2020-09-06 14:31:24 @tomasino but in this case polls are just A,B,C,D, etc
2020-09-06 14:31:34 @tomasino that's easy enough given one question per page
2020-09-06 14:31:38 felix And there's a wiki where you edit via SED commands. Those are one-liners.
2020-09-06 14:31:40 @tomasino you could do whole tests
2020-09-06 14:31:41 lukee its a start, but I think titan is a bit clunky in its current design
2020-09-06 14:32:14 lukee problem is how do you stop a wandering GUS bot from activating all the links?
2020-09-06 14:32:27 felix Wait... on the same principle you could have any kind of CLI.
2020-09-06 14:32:59 felix But yeah, it better be hidden behind an auth system of some sort.
2020-09-06 14:33:02 lukee please dont tell me the future of interactivity is SED?
2020-09-06 14:33:19 felix Well, if you insist on doing it over Gemini.
2020-09-06 14:33:31 ⚡ lukee shudders
2020-09-06 14:33:50 felix Otherwise we could always stick to web interfaces. We just need to make sure they work in Lynx.
2020-09-06 14:34:07 felix Or... we could *also* revive BBSes.
2020-09-06 14:34:13 @tomasino requiring a client cert is the easy way
2020-09-06 14:34:34 companion_cube just require that form upload needs `X-I-Am-A-Bot: false` header
2020-09-06 14:34:35 autumnova Didn't find anything about tables on the mailing list :(
2020-09-06 14:34:35 lukee We need a basic interactive submission mechanism in Gemini
2020-09-06 14:34:43 companion_cube this way search engines will not trigger them 🙃
2020-09-06 14:35:11 lukee companion_cube: there are no headers in gemini
2020-09-06 14:35:20 lukee or maybe it was a joke?
2020-09-06 14:35:23 felix Heck, a friend of mine has been looking into Minitel and such.
2020-09-06 14:35:25 companion_cube a magic string in the url, pf
2020-09-06 14:35:27 companion_cube in the first line
2020-09-06 14:35:35 companion_cube felix: minitel was centralized :(
2020-09-06 14:35:43 felix Key word: was.
2020-09-06 14:35:48 lukee magical reasoning is best left to fiction
2020-09-06 14:36:31 felix autumnova: I just used preformatted text when I needed one in md.
2020-09-06 14:36:43 felix It translated just fine to gemtext.
2020-09-06 14:37:03 @tomasino not having tables in gemini is interesting
2020-09-06 14:37:14 lukee it is a challenge
2020-09-06 14:37:15 @tomasino on the one hand, the markdown ones are pretty awful already
2020-09-06 14:37:31 @tomasino on the other hand, they do provide semantic info that could be valuable
2020-09-06 14:37:31 felix lukee: I was skeptical too. And critical. But we need experiments.
2020-09-06 14:37:32 autumnova Awful? I enjoy them :x
2020-09-06 14:37:48 lukee maybe just link to a CSV file and be done with it?
2020-09-06 14:38:02 @tomasino that might be the easiest solution, yeah
2020-09-06 14:38:17 autumnova Never used CSV before, time to learn ^^
2020-09-06 14:38:18 lukee if the data is interesting, the end user can process it
2020-09-06 14:38:31 @tomasino if it's just for show, drop it in ```
2020-09-06 14:38:31 lukee CSV: a,b,c thats it
2020-09-06 14:38:45 lukee (well its a bit more complex, but thats the essence)
2020-09-06 14:38:50 @tomasino this,is,a,header,row
2020-09-06 14:38:52 @tomasino :P
2020-09-06 14:39:09 felix On the minus side, that's not visually aligned. But there's TSV.
2020-09-06 14:39:17 @tomasino "sometimes we quote", "things", "and use spaces around commas, too"
2020-09-06 14:39:28 lukee there was a proposal to indicate the type in preformatted regions
2020-09-06 14:39:32 lukee so you could do this:
2020-09-06 14:39:35 @tomasino a client can format the csv as a table
2020-09-06 14:39:36 @tomasino :)
2020-09-06 14:39:38 lukee ```type:table
2020-09-06 14:39:40 lukee a,b,c
2020-09-06 14:39:47 lukee x,y,z
2020-09-06 14:39:49 lukee ```
2020-09-06 14:39:57 lukee and it could be rendered by the client
2020-09-06 14:40:03 autumnova I was thinking about things like ---> https://ueff.xyz/teams/aurioasc/
2020-09-06 14:40:14 felix Isn't that already in the spec? But clients parsing it is another story.
2020-09-06 14:40:26 autumnova It will be hard to make something like that with Gemini.
2020-09-06 14:40:41 @tomasino ```alt text is in the spec
2020-09-06 14:40:57 @tomasino the format stuff is purposefully left vague so people can do what they want
2020-09-06 14:41:04 lukee yes, but its semantics is unspecified
2020-09-06 14:41:28 lukee it is one of the few interesting areas of Gemini to explore
2020-09-06 14:41:43 lukee [still] to explore
2020-09-06 14:42:04 felix Indeed!
2020-09-06 14:42:23 ⚡ tomasino uses alt text all the time. :D
2020-09-06 14:42:59 felix Well, you come from Gopher. ;)
2020-09-06 14:43:31 ⚡ tomasino is a gopher
2020-09-06 14:43:36 lukee I think bouncepaw wrote a piece on this
2020-09-06 14:43:37 lukee gemini://tanelorn.city/~bouncepaw/gemlog/megapreformatted.gemini
2020-09-06 14:44:25 autumnova That is interesting, thx for the link.
2020-09-06 14:44:47 lukee we just need a vocabulary and let people get on with it
2020-09-06 14:45:43 @tomasino as long as the format doesn't hinder human readers that need the accessibility of the alt text from getting the information i'm all for it
2020-09-06 14:47:07 lukee I think the way to do it is to have a human-readable bit first, then metadata next
2020-09-06 14:47:09 lukee like this
2020-09-06 14:47:17 @tomasino many people seem to forget that Rhapsode (an auditory client for accessibility) was one of the first clients around
2020-09-06 14:47:31 lukee ```alt: a friendly description;other-params: foo
2020-09-06 14:48:10 lukee or could even ditch the first bit
2020-09-06 14:48:22 lukee ```a friendly description;other-params: foo
2020-09-06 14:49:01 @tomasino ```some block of accessible text(divider of some sort)programmatic info
2020-09-06 14:49:06 @tomasino that's what you're getting at, yes?
2020-09-06 14:49:20 lukee yes. CSS like
2020-09-06 14:49:27 @tomasino ```these people might use ;'s though... so |||type=table
2020-09-06 14:49:54 @tomasino but what about clients that don't know about that part
2020-09-06 14:50:01 @tomasino it'll read like accessible text followed by nonsense
2020-09-06 14:50:07 @tomasino it's a tricky thing
2020-09-06 14:50:22 lukee well it doesnt have an official semantics anyway
2020-09-06 14:50:53 lukee CSS type syntax is v widely understood
2020-09-06 14:51:10 @tomasino by machines?
2020-09-06 14:51:24 lukee and it maps into human text without too much clutter
2020-09-06 14:51:31 lukee by authors and machines
2020-09-06 14:52:09 lukee param separator is ;
2020-09-06 14:52:18 lukee attribute value separator is :
2020-09-06 14:52:45 lukee nicer than foo=bar&stuff=none%20sense
2020-09-06 14:52:59 @tomasino certainly is nicer than url params, yes
2020-09-06 14:53:17 @tomasino but if it's going to get read out to a blind user it's still quite obnoxious
2020-09-06 14:53:40 lukee auditory clients just read out to the first ; if the user wants it that way
2020-09-06 14:54:02 @tomasino simple solve, then
2020-09-06 14:54:15 @tomasino and "don't use ; in your alt text"
2020-09-06 14:54:17 @tomasino :D
2020-09-06 14:54:32 lukee like dont use ``` to start a line in preformatted text
2020-09-06 14:54:40 @tomasino a bit!
2020-09-06 14:54:50 lukee simple, but not a huge imposition
2020-09-06 14:55:08 @tomasino it's the best compromise i've read so far
2020-09-06 14:55:10 @tomasino :D
2020-09-06 14:55:21 lukee or dont start your line "* " if you dont intend a bullet
2020-09-06 14:58:50 lukee one more for the pile of good gemini ideas
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2020-09-06 15:09:02 felix One more for client developers to consider. ;)
2020-09-06 15:09:11 lukee yes I know
2020-09-06 15:10:51 lukee as a generalised solution for content interpretation, one param could be the content-type of the text
2020-09-06 15:11:10 lukee so ```here is a table in csv;content-type:text/csv
2020-09-06 15:12:50 lukee ```here is some python that your client could show with syntax highlighting; content-type: application/xpython
2020-09-06 15:13:55 lukee ```here is a graph that could be visualised using graphviz; content-type: vnd.graphviz
2020-09-06 15:14:40 @tomasino worth a gemlog about
2020-09-06 15:14:51 lukee yup
2020-09-06 15:15:25 @tomasino time to go make pokemon with foam clay with the kiddo
2020-09-06 15:15:28 @tomasino have a good one
2020-09-06 15:15:42 lukee see you later
2020-09-06 15:16:39 felix Have fun!
2020-09-06 15:30:15 mhj Heyo Gemini fans. I'm in a strange conundrum regarding clients. I use Linux OS called Nix. Nix doesn't make it easy to use locally built binaries unless they exist in the hash-pathed Nix store(You'd have to read up on it). I can use AV-98 by invoking directly with python, but all the other clients, like bombadillo, won't run. I was wondering if bombadillo and the like could get ported to the Nix store?
2020-09-06 15:32:11 lukee I think some of the clients have been packaged for other distros, so it should work.
2020-09-06 15:33:39 paper mhj: maybe try a void linux chroot? we have some clients packaged on void
2020-09-06 15:34:08 mhj I was thinking of doing that paper. I love Void Linux too, so yeah.
2020-09-06 15:35:10 mhj Thanks for the help peeps!
2020-09-06 15:35:29 mhj How're y'all btw?
2020-09-06 15:35:46 lukee good thanks
2020-09-06 15:35:59 felix There's another Python client you could try.
2020-09-06 15:36:17 mhj I mostly lurk here, but I've been on this network for quite a while, mostly when deepend had his own tilde.
2020-09-06 15:36:29 paper mhj: I have a script for simple setting up an tearing down chroots, if you are interested: https://git.tilde.institute/paper/chroot/
2020-09-06 15:36:49 mhj I'm interested paper!
2020-09-06 15:37:12 felix And I'm good too. Looking through old files.
2020-09-06 15:37:15 paper interesting, what was the tilde called?
2020-09-06 15:37:56 lukee if you're having problems with binaries, but you can run scripts there are other script based clients
2020-09-06 15:38:35 mhj Uhh, trying to think of what the tilde was called...
2020-09-06 15:38:38 lukee like in lua, Tcl/Tk and others
2020-09-06 15:38:49 mhj Oh cool :D
2020-09-06 15:39:21 lukee I take it you know the list here: gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/software/
2020-09-06 15:39:28 mhj Oh yeah, it was YourTilde
2020-09-06 15:39:41 mhj Yup indeed I do
2020-09-06 15:39:54 felix This one didn't work for me, but who knows: https://gitgud.io/sathariel/zain
2020-09-06 15:40:15 felix There's also this: https://git.sr.ht/~nhanb/mcross
2020-09-06 15:41:50 ⚡ mhj bookmarks all these
2020-09-06 15:42:02 mhj Thnx~
2020-09-06 15:43:38 felix But if you can't run 3rd-party binaries, how do you build from source?
2020-09-06 15:43:59 mhj I run a Gemini server on FreeBSD at earthlight.xyz, but I need to redo the certificate since apparently it's expired. There's not much on there atm anyway, because I also run a gopher instance and a website on the machine. It's a Digital Ocean VPS.
2020-09-06 15:44:41 felix Nice!
2020-09-06 15:44:45 mhj I'm still a little new to running a website, but gopher is easy enough to setup and use. I use motsognir.
2020-09-06 15:45:46 felix Easier than Gemini, that's for sure.
2020-09-06 15:46:20 felix Guess you're browsing from your VPS for now then, over SSH?
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2020-09-06 15:48:39 mhj Oh nope, sadly I am using IRC on Win10(bleh). I had to install Windows 10 on a local machine because of school reasons. My machines aren't powerful enough to run Win10 in a VM, sadly. I'm going back to school for a technical writing cert, and already have a degree in computer programming...
2020-09-06 15:48:57 mhj But my main machine is a laptop that runs NixOS.
2020-09-06 15:49:22 felix Right!
2020-09-06 15:49:30 felix But you also have the VPS.
2020-09-06 15:49:50 mhj Indeed
2020-09-06 15:50:18 felix It's kind of silly, but you could run a Gemini client there.
2020-09-06 15:50:52 mhj Oh yeah, could definitely try
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2020-09-06 15:52:26 mhj I just would probably need to install the Linux emulation layer in FreeBSD if I want any of the more involved clients lol
2020-09-06 15:53:08 felix I'm not so sure. many are written in Go.
2020-09-06 15:53:17 felix And come with binaries for FreeBSD.
2020-09-06 15:53:36 felix Others can be built from source.
2020-09-06 15:53:40 mhj Ohh, that's really nice
2020-09-06 15:54:07 felix Try Bombadillo, it's what we have on Ctrl-C.club
2020-09-06 15:54:25 mhj Will do!
2020-09-06 15:56:18 mhj BRB, gotta get something to eat
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2020-09-06 16:43:17 mhj OK back for a short while
2020-09-06 16:46:09 felix Welcome back! Turns out I was wrong about binaries.
2020-09-06 16:46:22 felix But you can still try to build from source many clients.
2020-09-06 16:46:39 felix Or for that matter look in pkgsrc.
2020-09-06 16:50:06 mhj Ahh, true
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2020-09-06 16:59:15 easeout mhj, there are lots of options here https://github.com/kr1sp1n/awesome-gemini
2020-09-06 17:03:24 mhj Thanks easeout! Y'all are awesome!
2020-09-06 17:03:38 easeout 🕊
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2020-09-06 17:06:06 felix 😊
2020-09-06 17:07:23 mhj Gotta go, I'll be back tonight!
2020-09-06 17:07:37 mhj Thanks again all!
2020-09-06 17:08:47 ⚡ felix waves!
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2020-09-06 17:36:46 @tomasino nice work, paper
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2020-09-06 17:39:19 paper thank you <3
2020-09-06 17:40:26 paper I will post it here too - I made a modular feed reader with a decentralized backend (in fact a set of files) supporting gemini and gopher feeds https://git.tilde.institute/paper/recrss-dl/about/
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2020-09-06 17:41:53 felix Sounds interesting!
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2020-09-06 17:42:29 paper gemini UI may come soon
2020-09-06 17:45:11 felix So we'll have another aggregator!
2020-09-06 17:46:11 paper if someone hosts a version where they include all gemini feeds, then yes
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2020-09-06 18:02:31 easeout so duckling acts as a proxy server that presents HTTP content over gemini:// for gemini clients, right
2020-09-06 18:03:50 easeout and it kind of like the reverse of https://portal.mozz.us, which presents gemini content over HTTP for web browsers
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2020-09-06 18:04:51 easeout i think i'd like to use a proxy that lets me stay in my web browser, but that i run on my own machine and can configure appearance and stuff
2020-09-06 18:05:00 easeout does something like that exist?
2020-09-06 18:06:20 lukee easeout: there are a couple of browser based options. for example plugins into dillo
2020-09-06 18:06:38 lukee and I think there is at least one webkit flavoured gemini client
2020-09-06 18:07:09 easeout mm ok, that's something
2020-09-06 18:07:17 lukee duckling, as you say is about going the other way. It lets you browse the web from a gemini client
2020-09-06 18:07:35 easeout yeah ok, thanks for confirming, i was not totally sure
2020-09-06 18:08:21 easeout i'm basically looking for a way to keep using the browser and bookmarks setup i've already got, and add gemini to that
2020-09-06 18:08:33 felix I've been relying on portal.mozz.us on mobile.
2020-09-06 18:08:35 easeout but without it having to be a specific browser with a specific plugin.
2020-09-06 18:09:02 easeout yeah on mobile that makes sense unless i was going to self-host that kind of portal on a VPS or something.
2020-09-06 18:09:07 lukee it wouldnt be too hard to take some of the existing gemini client software and make an open source proxy
2020-09-06 18:09:21 acdw I asked mozz.us's owner for the source behind portal, but he decliend. However the source behind proxy.vulpes.one is available somewhere
2020-09-06 18:09:22 felix I'll install a native client when it's more convenient.
2020-09-06 18:09:45 easeout nice acdw. yeah i think that is the ticket lukee
2020-09-06 18:10:45 easeout that might be a nice first step on the way to building a native mobile client which is more my wheelhouse
2020-09-06 18:11:01 easeout something that is gemini-native but can just push on an HTTP view when needed
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2020-09-06 18:12:15 acdw i don't remember where it was but i could find it again i think if yall want me to
2020-09-06 18:12:38 easeout i'll see if i can't search it up myself and save you the trouble
2020-09-06 18:12:44 acdw kewl :)
2020-09-06 18:12:54 acdw if you do find it feel free to drop it in here
2020-09-06 18:13:00 easeout yeah i shall
2020-09-06 18:13:09 easeout vulpes is more what i'm after anyway; something deliberately styled
2020-09-06 18:13:15 acdw OH I think it'd be on my work notes somewhere -- gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/users/acdw/work-notes/
2020-09-06 18:13:26 acdw I *think* it's on that page somewhere
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2020-09-06 18:13:45 lukee well once you have transformed the gemtext to html, you can style it to your heart's content
2020-09-06 18:13:58 acdw yepyep
2020-09-06 18:14:25 lukee I think I heard recently someone had applied a user style on top of the mozz proxy using firefox
2020-09-06 18:14:37 felix Right!
2020-09-06 18:15:29 lukee the mozz content is fairly vanilla.
2020-09-06 18:15:47 lukee Isnt there some kind of extension for applying user styles to browsers - I forget the name
2020-09-06 18:16:39 easeout do you mean the user agent stylesheet?
2020-09-06 18:16:42 lukee https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/stylish-custom-themes-for/fjnbnpbmkenffdnngjfgmeleoegfcffe?hl=en
2020-09-06 18:16:51 easeout oh, extension
2020-09-06 18:16:55 lukee or the user agent stylesheet
2020-09-06 18:17:02 lukee but that would be global?
2020-09-06 18:17:08 easeout i think by default it is
2020-09-06 18:17:26 easeout but browsers don't really even have that exposed these days anyway
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2020-09-06 18:17:48 lukee I think you can do it in firefox, not sure about others
2020-09-06 18:18:58 felix Anyway, see you!
2020-09-06 18:19:07 lukee ok bye
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2020-09-06 18:20:11 acdw lukee; I did that
2020-09-06 18:20:18 acdw stylus
2020-09-06 18:20:29 acdw you want to use stylus b/c stylish was corporate-takeovered
2020-09-06 18:21:07 lukee ok - I'm sure there are others too
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2020-09-06 18:23:11 acdw yeh probs
2020-09-06 18:23:20 lukee another approach: bolt a gemini client into a CGI script and run it on a local Apache
2020-09-06 18:23:28 acdw that'd work too
2020-09-06 18:23:33 acdw that'd be cool actually
2020-09-06 18:24:43 lukee It would mean avoiding writing a server
2020-09-06 18:27:35 easeout acdw, looks like the vulpes proxy's source code was here https://git.feuerfuchs.dev/Feuerfuchs/gopherproxy but that was shut down at some point. it's not on the author's github either.
2020-09-06 18:28:21 easeout it might be a fork of the same gopherproxy project that runs floodgap though; same repo name on github.
2020-09-06 18:28:25 acdw yeah .. it was, dang
2020-09-06 18:28:37 easeout or, maybe i'm misinterpreting that other repo. anyway
2020-09-06 18:28:40 acdw hmm
2020-09-06 18:29:04 easeout regardless, there are a) proxies i can look at, and b) gemini clients i can look at, so i could synthesize
2020-09-06 18:29:30 lukee what is your preferred language?
2020-09-06 18:29:30 acdw awesome! best of luck. it's a good project i think. makes the whole space more accessible
2020-09-06 18:30:01 easeout i assume you mean programming language; that'd be swift
2020-09-06 18:30:43 easeout but we'll see how smooth it is for this purpose. "swift on server" is an area of focus for growth now, but it's not the language's core competency.
2020-09-06 18:31:11 lukee not a million miles from Go and Rust, which both are reasonably well represented
2020-09-06 18:31:34 easeout right, it took lessons from both of them for sure
2020-09-06 18:31:50 easeout and i can always learn to read another language or two.
2020-09-06 18:32:15 easeout ok cool thanks for helping me with the background info. maybe i'll make this my next project
2020-09-06 18:32:18 lukee the go-gemini library is quite good I think for writing a simple client
2020-09-06 18:32:35 lukee but good luck and let us know your progress
2020-09-06 18:32:40 easeout thanks!
2020-09-06 18:32:53 easeout well first i'll let you know if i write any code at all lol
2020-09-06 18:33:03 easeout probably gonna start by reading a lot.
2020-09-06 18:33:10 lukee a journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step
2020-09-06 18:34:25 lukee writing a gemini client is quite rewarding, but you can make progress quite rapidly as things like TLS are often commoditised
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2020-09-06 22:42:01 lukee Not sure if anyone is still around?
2020-09-06 22:42:17 lukee I wrote a short piece on some of our discussion about alt-text
2020-09-06 22:42:20 lukee gemini://gemini.marmaladefoo.com/blog/6-Sep-2020_Parsing_preformatted_alt_text.gmi
2020-09-06 22:42:26 lukee Did I miss anything?
2020-09-06 23:01:39 lukee Its past midnight so I will post with this URL instead gemini://gemini.marmaladefoo.com/blog/7-Sep-2020_Parsing_preformatted_alt_text.gmi
2020-09-06 23:04:35 @tomasino very thorough! I like it
2020-09-06 23:04:41 @tomasino you should share a link on the ML as well
2020-09-06 23:04:44 lukee thanks
2020-09-06 23:04:59 lukee It just went live - I'll do an email to the ML
2020-09-06 23:10:59 mhj Good evening all, well, it's evening here anyway. 7:10PM in the EST
2020-09-06 23:18:46 @tomasino ,time
2020-09-06 23:18:47 tildebot [Time] Time for tomasino: 2020-09-06 23:18:46 UTC
2020-09-06 23:19:11 lukee ,time
2020-09-06 23:19:11 tildebot [Time] lukee: Please set location, e.g.: ,config lukee location London, GB
2020-09-06 23:19:31 lukee ,config lukee location London, GB
2020-09-06 23:19:32 tildebot [Config] Config 'location' set to {'timezone': 'Europe/London', 'lat': 51.5073219, 'lon': -0.1276474, 'name': 'London, England, United Kingdom'}
2020-09-06 23:19:36 lukee ,time
2020-09-06 23:19:36 tildebot [Time] Time for lukee: 2020-09-07 00:19:36 UTC+1
2020-09-06 23:22:54 mhj ,time
2020-09-06 23:22:54 tildebot [Time] mhj: Please set location, e.g.: ,config mhj location London, GB
2020-09-06 23:23:22 mhj ,config mhj location Miami, FL
2020-09-06 23:23:23 tildebot [Config] Config 'location' set to {'timezone': 'America/New_York', 'lat': 25.7741728, 'lon': -80.19362, 'name': 'Miami, Florida, United States of America'}
2020-09-06 23:23:37 mhj ,time
2020-09-06 23:23:38 tildebot [Time] Time for mhj: 2020-09-06 19:23:37 UTC-4
2020-09-06 23:24:49 lukee The missive to the ML has been fired off. I hope it won't bring out too many pitchforks!
2020-09-06 23:35:05 @tomasino woo!
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2020-09-07 00:00:06 lukee ok I'm off to be now o/
2020-09-07 00:00:19 lukee be -> bed
2020-09-07 00:00:21 @tomasino ciao!
2020-09-07 00:00:21 companion_cube tomasino: so why is toki pona cool? :p
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2020-09-07 00:00:56 @tomasino philosophical choices, minimalism, simplistic and easy to learn even for people not into language learning
2020-09-07 00:01:07 @tomasino it really took off with the clown community on fedi
2020-09-07 00:01:11 @tomasino quite random, that, but neat
2020-09-07 00:01:12 companion_cube hu
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2020-09-07 01:44:43 moody evenin'
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2020-09-07 02:17:17 CoopDot Nice. Took me a while, but I got in
2020-09-07 02:17:26 CoopDot Hello
2020-09-07 02:17:54 CoopDot_web Don't need this now
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2020-09-07 08:27:46 sandra Uh I get so overwhelmed with all the gem text language extentions, lukee :/
2020-09-07 08:28:08 sandra (Re your post your marmaladefoo gemspace.)
2020-09-07 08:29:45 sandra Ah, now I'm reading bouncepaw's post for context
2020-09-07 08:31:03 sandra I've been using md2gemini's unicode table output, I think it looks good. Not sure how it sounds for audio browsers; the intent is that you can hear each row read off ltr before moving down to the next row, just as text just with weird punctuation.
2020-09-07 08:32:10 sandra Org-mode has the feature you're proposing for its code blocks
2020-09-07 08:32:36 sandra Which was one of the reasons I switched to markdown because I got overwhelmed with the complexity.
2020-09-07 08:33:02 sandra My gmi files do throw away a lot of semantic markup but that's because gmi is a simpler format by design.
2020-09-07 08:34:17 sandra As an example, https://idiomdrottning.org/line-moving-semantics compared to gemini://idiomdrottning.org/line-moving-semantics.gmi The former has bold sections and mono space sections. Neither are essential to comprehend the text.
2020-09-07 08:34:40 sandra (and italic)
2020-09-07 08:35:06 sandra Lukee isn't even in the room. I'll paste that into a post on gem space
2020-09-07 08:45:11 moody what is this gem space?
2020-09-07 08:45:38 sandra My pet name for everything on gemini://
2020-09-07 08:45:45 moody ah gotcha
2020-09-07 08:45:56 sandra For me mostly CAPCOM
2020-09-07 08:46:01 sandra so far.
2020-09-07 08:47:00 sandra gemini://idiomdrottning.org/re-parsing-preformatted-alt-text.gmi
2020-09-07 08:47:11 login which gemini client do you use?
2020-09-07 08:47:19 sandra AV-98
2020-09-07 08:47:32 sandra Sometimes the qute-Gemini script
2020-09-07 08:47:46 sandra I haven't got good schema and stuff set up so there's a lot of cutting and pasting back and forth so far
2020-09-07 08:47:51 sandra But I've only been on Gemini like a week
2020-09-07 08:48:27 login is it cli?
2020-09-07 08:48:31 sandra Yeah
2020-09-07 08:48:35 login ah
2020-09-07 08:48:57 sandra AV-98 is CLI and qute-gemini is a li'l script that tries to turn gem pages into HTML. It doesn't work great so far
2020-09-07 08:49:42 sandra AV-98 has overtaken it in my use. I sometimes use AV-98 inside emacs shell-mode
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2020-09-07 09:49:11 flexibeast sandra: i've submitted some patches to elpher so that it can display numbered links à la AV-98. :-)
2020-09-07 09:50:30 flexibeast But i found AV-98 rather neat.
2020-09-07 11:42:40 alex11 does gemini accept any project contributers/volunteers?
2020-09-07 11:50:15 ▬▬▶ ehmry has joined #gemini
2020-09-07 11:56:37 flexibeast alex11: Well, there's the last paragraph of the FAQ: https://proxy.vulpes.one/gemini/gemini.circumlunar.space/docs/faq.gmi :-)
2020-09-07 12:44:35 kvothe good mornin'!
2020-09-07 12:58:19 sandra kvothe: Thanx for hooking me up with some cool peeps on the other internet
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2020-09-07 13:05:35 lukee hi everyone
2020-09-07 13:06:41 lukee sandra; thanks for your reply. The post was initially motivated by a conversation about tables, but I think that is the bit that everyone latched on to.
2020-09-07 13:07:16 lukee Whereas for me the main element is having an *optional* convention on how that space is generally used
2020-09-07 13:08:15 lukee you mention you would prefer if people didnt embed ascii art in their gemtext. I dont have a horse in that race, personally, but I think there is an established practice of it
2020-09-07 13:08:56 sandra For tables I'd like it if each row is just read off one item at a time and if you could skip the table
2020-09-07 13:09:42 sandra When there is semantic markup you can do to make your data more semantically marked up, I get stressed out if I then don't actually do that
2020-09-07 13:09:58 sandra I don't want to be a "bad gmi citizen"
2020-09-07 13:10:48 lukee well the level of semantic markup is very low at the moment, which is a strength in many cases
2020-09-07 13:11:19 sandra It also feels weird to put in _some_ semantic markup but not _all_ the semantic markup
2020-09-07 13:11:48 sandra I feel guilty for being such a parade rainer
2020-09-07 13:11:49 lukee its finding the sweet spot, but it is much further to the left than other markup languages
2020-09-07 13:12:08 @tomasino opinions and discussion are helpful. rain away
2020-09-07 13:12:18 lukee to be honest, I think that space will be used for different things
2020-09-07 13:12:29 lukee but perhaps some convention is useful
2020-09-07 13:12:58 lukee I dont think this needs to be institutionalised in the standard. More like an optional community practice
2020-09-07 13:13:23 sandra I missed the 5.4.3 in the spec at https://gemini.circumlunar.space/docs/specification.html
2020-09-07 13:13:34 sandra I thought the spec was ^```$
2020-09-07 13:14:05 lukee no there is a gap where the light can come in
2020-09-07 13:14:31 sandra The spec is also self-contradicting because the next paragraph says "Any text following the leading "```" of a preformat toggle line which toggles preformatted mode off MUST be ignored by clients."
2020-09-07 13:14:40 sandra That's a bug obv
2020-09-07 13:14:40 lukee originally people were thinking of screen readers, and being able to indicate language
2020-09-07 13:14:46 lukee no its a feature
2020-09-07 13:14:57 @tomasino that was the old version, sandra. if it's out of sync with the mention of alt text it just needs to be corrected
2020-09-07 13:15:25 @tomasino ^```$ is now ^```[optional alt text]$
2020-09-07 13:15:25 lukee the latest version of the spec is (as far as I know) here: gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/docs/specification.gmi
2020-09-07 13:15:38 sandra It says the same thing
2020-09-07 13:15:41 @tomasino yes, not version-wise, i mean intention
2020-09-07 13:15:54 @tomasino the alt text was added later and maybe not globally reflected
2020-09-07 13:16:29 sandra Right. What I mean by bug is that the spec says that the alt text, that the immediately preceding text said to put in, MUST be thrown away without looking by all clients.
2020-09-07 13:16:32 lukee "Any text following the leading "```"... MAY be interpreted by the client
2020-09-07 13:17:01 lukee well it is true it should not be shown to end users
2020-09-07 13:17:02 @tomasino the ``` toggling OFF has nothing following it
2020-09-07 13:17:08 lukee but that does not mean it has no role
2020-09-07 13:17:09 sandra Oh, OFF!
2020-09-07 13:17:27 ⚡ sandra = pebcak as per use
2020-09-07 13:17:45 @tomasino hehe, no worries. it's entirely possible there's logical inconsistencies in the spec at this point from all the tweaks
2020-09-07 13:17:54 @tomasino we'll all have to look out for those and correct them if we find them
2020-09-07 13:17:56 sandra This was a complete false alarm though
2020-09-07 13:18:03 sandra Misread on my part
2020-09-07 13:18:16 lukee no worries
2020-09-07 13:18:24 @tomasino it's all good
2020-09-07 13:19:07 lukee ok, just a brief visitation from me, I've got to go. o/
2020-09-07 13:19:15 lukee has quit (quit: Leaving)
2020-09-07 13:19:39 @tomasino it would seem logical that the alt text has most value for accessibility, but visual clients may wish to have an option to toggle between alt text and expanded preformatted blocks
2020-09-07 13:19:48 @tomasino especially on phones it could be nice to save a mess
2020-09-07 13:19:53 sandra ni'o Re: Duckling: Before Duckling existed, I felt pretty great that everything in gmi-space was good solid simple text. But that's not the case now that there is a https+html→gemini+gmi proxy
2020-09-07 13:20:35 sandra Especially for Wikipedia I would rather figure out a browser that views, edits and renders the wikitext directly rather than going wikisource→html→gmi
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2020-09-07 13:21:39 sandra https://drewdevault.com/2020/03/18/Reckless-limitless-scope.html ← This blog post is why I became interested in Gemini. But with the proxy it's like we're bringing all the problems of HTML and its rendering back in, except that the "difficult thing to implement" is the proxy rather than the browser itself
2020-09-07 13:22:23 sandra I.o.w. if it were possible to create a good HTML proxy, it would be just as easy (a.k.a. just as difficult) to create a good HTML browser
2020-09-07 13:22:32 sandra For a simple text like browser
2020-09-07 13:22:51 sandra eww, lynx and even edbrowse all kind of suck on the current day web
2020-09-07 13:23:06 sandra Even though I'm willing AF to throw away information to get a simpler reading experience
2020-09-07 13:23:20 felix Blame web designers.
2020-09-07 13:23:32 @tomasino just went ard read the blog post
2020-09-07 13:23:37 @tomasino yes, browsers are horrible
2020-09-07 13:23:42 @tomasino and no, i don't blame web designers
2020-09-07 13:23:48 felix I'd be so happy if we settled for a web that worked in Lynx.
2020-09-07 13:24:09 @tomasino designers don't make the calls to add features to the browser. They exploit what's available
2020-09-07 13:24:28 felix And what do you call someone who does things because they can?
2020-09-07 13:24:36 felix Regardless of the harm they cause?
2020-09-07 13:24:47 sandra So that's my two problems with Duckling. 1. It makes "this is well-designed gemtext" no longer a trustworthy thing to say, which, OK, needed to happen sooner or later, but 2. Is just as possible/impossible as creating a good web browser in the first place, and if it were possible, Gemini wouldn't be needed (for me) because the web wouldn't have the problems described in the article.
2020-09-07 13:25:10 @tomasino what is duckling?
2020-09-07 13:25:36 sandra lukee's https+html→gemini+gmi proxy
2020-09-07 13:25:49 felix For what it's worth, portal.mozz.us works in Lynx.
2020-09-07 13:25:59 sandra My own web site works in lynx
2020-09-07 13:26:03 @tomasino browse websites in gemini?
2020-09-07 13:26:09 @tomasino or vice versa
2020-09-07 13:26:16 sandra tomasino: the former. Browse websites in gemini
2020-09-07 13:26:58 sandra Vice versa proxies are awesome♥
2020-09-07 13:26:58 sandra I mean, the Duckling direction (bringing it into gmi) is more impressive but with the aforementioned caveats
2020-09-07 13:27:32 @tomasino it adds content available in gemini but at the cost of quality... and none of it is unique to the platform
2020-09-07 13:27:51 @tomasino i guess it's a neat technical feat
2020-09-07 13:27:58 @tomasino is it getting much use?
2020-09-07 13:28:03 sandra That's why I feel bad for the parade raining; that's lukee's baby
2020-09-07 13:28:10 sandra It was just released over the weekend
2020-09-07 13:28:31 @tomasino ahh, well, people have different things they like
2020-09-07 13:28:34 sandra August 31 was the release mail
2020-09-07 13:28:42 sandra So I guess 1 week ago
2020-09-07 13:28:49 sandra "If I did they'd have a Samurai"
2020-09-07 13:28:54 @tomasino maybe it lets him pull in some of his normal web browsing habits and combine them with gemini surfing
2020-09-07 13:29:08 sandra tomasino: Yes, a lot of good outcomes can happen
2020-09-07 13:29:51 @tomasino i'm not too concerned about it, personally. Nor am i too concerned about the alt text stuff i try to keep defending. Ultimately what will make or break gemini is original content
2020-09-07 13:30:10 kevinsan i think there are some web resources that are worth bringing into gemini (e.g. the awesome-gemini list from github, articles on SSL, etc.)
2020-09-07 13:30:25 kvothe sandra: it was inevitable, there's some cool cats out there :D
2020-09-07 13:30:46 kvothe Sorry, went to get coffee and all that :D
2020-09-07 13:30:58 kevinsan so, web->gmi is a handy shortcut for this information
2020-09-07 13:31:10 kevinsan tomasino, what foam pokemon did you make yesterday?
2020-09-07 13:31:19 @tomasino my son made about 15
2020-09-07 13:31:24 @tomasino i was support
2020-09-07 13:31:33 @tomasino all from the original set
2020-09-07 13:31:35 sandra kvothe: Yeah, I just have to be patient
2020-09-07 13:31:41 @tomasino i don't know the names of the later ones
2020-09-07 13:32:17 @tomasino we need to go get him some brown foam clay so he can make rychu and eevee and a few others
2020-09-07 13:32:23 sandra tomasino: Keep defending? What's your position on the alt text stuff
2020-09-07 13:32:31 @tomasino its existence
2020-09-07 13:32:45 sandra I should put in alt text in there
2020-09-07 13:32:52 @tomasino i've been fighting for it and defending it from becoming a syntax markup thing from the start
2020-09-07 13:33:11 sandra I don't know what to put in. I have tables
2020-09-07 13:33:14 sandra And source code
2020-09-07 13:33:17 sandra And poems
2020-09-07 13:33:20 @tomasino just say "table about XXX"
2020-09-07 13:33:30 @tomasino "poem"
2020-09-07 13:33:36 @tomasino whatever
2020-09-07 13:33:38 sandra Except that the poems are not using the ``` syntax RN, I forgot. They're just shorter lines
2020-09-07 13:33:47 @tomasino that works too
2020-09-07 13:34:14 @tomasino if you imagine a screen reader hitting the preformatted block and pausing it will say: 'preformatted: [alt text]'
2020-09-07 13:34:21 sandra I'd have to patch md2gemini :/
2020-09-07 13:34:26 @tomasino then the reader can choose to skip it or continue having it read
2020-09-07 13:34:35 @tomasino if you say "ascii art of a waffle" they can skip
2020-09-07 13:34:45 @tomasino if you say: "poem about the elm trees"
2020-09-07 13:34:48 @tomasino they may continue
2020-09-07 13:35:01 @tomasino ahh, you're auto-generating your gemtext
2020-09-07 13:35:05 @tomasino more effort then, yeah
2020-09-07 13:35:39 @tomasino whatever is comfortable for you
2020-09-07 13:35:56 @tomasino it shouldn't become burdensome
2020-09-07 13:36:16 sandra So let me get this straight, I write ```Table or ```Source Code
2020-09-07 13:36:18 sandra For the opener
2020-09-07 13:36:21 sandra And nothing on the closer
2020-09-07 13:36:23 @tomasino yep
2020-09-07 13:36:45 @tomasino ``` you can have an optional space in there if you like
2020-09-07 13:37:02 kvothe very much like the {{{ in md
2020-09-07 13:37:08 @tomasino ```and there's currently no syntax to follow for what you can have as this alt text. it's like a caption
2020-09-07 13:38:30 sandra Right, I saw lukee's proposal
2020-09-07 13:38:38 sandra I didn't know about the {{{ in md
2020-09-07 13:38:44 sandra I'm patching md2gemini rn
2020-09-07 13:38:46 @tomasino i've never used {{{ in md
2020-09-07 13:38:52 @tomasino i do use ``` blocks though
2020-09-07 13:39:42 felix I use indented blocks for source code in Markdown.
2020-09-07 13:39:51 kvothe oh, I'm sorry, that's vimwiki syntax
2020-09-07 13:39:55 kvothe I get that confused sometimes
2020-09-07 13:39:56 sandra Oh, it already does use a "code block info"
2020-09-07 13:39:58 felix Which proved to be a problem when I started with gemtext.
2020-09-07 13:39:59 sandra I have to go read common mark
2020-09-07 13:40:24 kvothe you do {{{python and it syntax highlights the pre block as python
2020-09-07 13:40:55 felix Right, OddMuse uses triple curly braces.
2020-09-07 13:41:35 sandra You write ```ruby
2020-09-07 13:41:44 kvothe sandra: on an entirely tangential note, C. and I had a really nice convo about how you might moderate a decentralized communication network in the car on the way to her aunt's yesterday
2020-09-07 13:41:48 sandra {{{ is not common mark. That might be OddMuse
2020-09-07 13:42:05 sandra Is C one of your wives?
2020-09-07 13:42:18 sandra Uh if that's not an inappropriate q♥
2020-09-07 13:42:18 kvothe my wife, yes :D
2020-09-07 13:42:59 kvothe lol, we're not *currently* dating other folks right now and that's entirely OK to ask
2020-09-07 13:43:59 kvothe anyway, @hafnia has been the moderator of several large FB groups
2020-09-07 13:44:32 kvothe C. has participated in several and we talked about how that worked
2020-09-07 13:44:43 felix Mastodon mods might have insights.
2020-09-07 13:45:39 kvothe so I've worked on Tor in a past life, and the thing that I'm really wrestling with is "how do you contend with darkweb stuff while not offering an easy mechanism of harassment"
2020-09-07 13:45:57 sandra Md2gemini now patched & the patch sent to the guy
2020-09-07 13:46:01 kvothe felix: that's a good point
2020-09-07 13:46:23 @tomasino i really like participating in tor as a tor hidden service
2020-09-07 13:46:24 sandra kvothe: Did you see the "wishlist" post in the thread?
2020-09-07 13:46:36 @tomasino but i think i'm done allowing for anon activity through my stuff
2020-09-07 13:47:05 sandra w/ kensanata
2020-09-07 13:47:22 kvothe I have not, I'll poke in
2020-09-07 13:47:54 kvothe tomasino: yes, tor gets very bad very fast
2020-09-07 13:48:31 kvothe oh holy crap, I haven't touched Mastodon yet -- I didn't realize so many people would poke in on that thread
2020-09-07 13:48:41 sandra Sorry about that
2020-09-07 13:48:47 kvothe no, it's fine ha
2020-09-07 13:48:49 sandra I can be a bit of a keyboard firehose
2020-09-07 13:49:32 kvothe same
2020-09-07 13:50:12 @tomasino reminds me of the firehose scene in UHF
2020-09-07 13:52:54 sandra Quick Python Q: quickest One True Way to change zero-to-infinite \n at the end of a string to one \n?
2020-09-07 13:53:02 sandra Seems like most of my strings here have two \n where I need one
2020-09-07 13:53:22 djph dunno, I just used sed
2020-09-07 13:53:54 sandra ♥♥♥sed♥♥♥ > 💔💔💔python💔💔💔
2020-09-07 13:55:12 djph boxboxbox sed box[...]
2020-09-07 13:55:21 kvothe sandra: I think I grok what you're saying regarding rooms. in theory, you could kind of blend the wholly distributed and decentralized models with some sort of topical discovery
2020-09-07 13:55:51 sandra (To answer my Python Q from earlier, it's rstrip())
2020-09-07 13:59:55 sandra tomasino: Now alt text added to all my stuff on gemspace
2020-09-07 14:01:43 sandra I can see how 💔 would be a box on many computers and I try to not use it as much, but if ♥ is a box then I don't know what to tell you
2020-09-07 14:01:50 sandra Get unicode
2020-09-07 14:01:55 @tomasino yay alt text
2020-09-07 14:02:00 easeout the latter isn't even unicode, right, it's ascii
2020-09-07 14:02:16 sandra easeout: It's utf-8
2020-09-07 14:02:18 easeout or, wait. is ascii the first 7 bits or first 8 bits
2020-09-07 14:02:23 sandra ASCII is the first 7 bits only
2020-09-07 14:02:23 kvothe 7
2020-09-07 14:02:30 easeout word
2020-09-07 14:02:40 @tomasino <♥> 9829, Hex 2665, Octal 23145
2020-09-07 14:02:41 kvothe utf-8 is such a neat hack, btw
2020-09-07 14:02:44 @tomasino according to vim
2020-09-07 14:02:54 sandra Yeees one of Ken Thompsons best inventions, kvothe
2020-09-07 14:03:04 sandra Unlike iso-8859-1 which was a never-ending horror-show
2020-09-07 14:03:15 kvothe man, I'm gonna have to put together a whole-ass gemini post about decentralized/distributed social networking
2020-09-07 14:03:26 easeout i'm so glad we only have to think about unicode anymore and not all encodings ever
2020-09-07 14:03:31 kvothe lol, or UCS-2 *shudders*
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2020-09-07 14:03:46 sandra There is plenty of iso-8859-1 text that still walks these haunted halls over here :(
2020-09-07 14:04:05 djph kvothe: that's an easy one. "Social Networking: Don't"
2020-09-07 14:04:20 easeout kvothe, i've liked your recent posts
2020-09-07 14:04:29 ⚡ tomasino networks up all of kvothe's socials
2020-09-07 14:04:32 kvothe easeout: thank you!
2020-09-07 14:04:44 kvothe so, like, in some sense IRC is a social network
2020-09-07 14:05:03 kvothe I'm using it as shorthand for "communication protocol for humans"
2020-09-07 14:05:11 felix Yes, it is.
2020-09-07 14:05:20 sandra I've been off social media including IRC and that was the first one I got on when I got on social media a month or so back
2020-09-07 14:05:26 easeout good choice
2020-09-07 14:05:37 felix You can friend people on IRC for example. ;)
2020-09-07 14:06:02 @tomasino hrm, i guess a counterpoint would be that the network effect isn't driven by the individual social connections
2020-09-07 14:06:29 @tomasino it's a network where we are social, but our connection to one another don't create that infrastructure or power its distribution
2020-09-07 14:06:36 sandra Channels = hashtags
2020-09-07 14:06:48 sandra I think hashtags literally are IRC-inspired
2020-09-07 14:06:56 sandra Some guy on Twitter invented them for that purp
2020-09-07 14:07:00 sandra Some normal user
2020-09-07 14:07:05 @tomasino yeah, i seem to remember the same
2020-09-07 14:07:13 sandra Easily searchable strings
2020-09-07 14:07:14 kvothe Alex Schroeder had a really good point about the G+ circles idea
2020-09-07 14:07:58 sandra I thought I answered those points, IDK
2020-09-07 14:08:06 felix For the brief while I spent on G+ early on, I was *very* uncomfortable.
2020-09-07 14:08:23 felix Because Google got to know exactly how I divide people into circles.
2020-09-07 14:08:36 felix They learned *more* about me that way, not less.
2020-09-07 14:08:37 sandra My Fedi instance is the one part of my website that breaks down in lynx. I shoulda istalled brutaldon day one. I wanna make a gmi frontend
2020-09-07 14:08:56 felix Now I just, wait for it, use different social networks altogether.
2020-09-07 14:09:32 kvothe so, I *really* like sandra's idea of going for "cozy" rather than going for huge
2020-09-07 14:09:46 felix Me too.
2020-09-07 14:10:19 @tomasino is there a write up you guys are referring to?
2020-09-07 14:10:22 felix No crowds, no pressure to post.
2020-09-07 14:10:23 @tomasino i feel like i missed something
2020-09-07 14:10:35 @tomasino was this a gemlog?
2020-09-07 14:10:44 sandra It started as a gemlog of kvothes
2020-09-07 14:10:48 sandra But continued on the other internet
2020-09-07 14:10:56 kvothe tomasino: it's a giant thread on Mastodon, I'll link https://mastodon.sdf.org/@kvothe/104818596837821575
2020-09-07 14:11:19 kvothe and also IRC :^)
2020-09-07 14:11:26 sandra That's not wholly original, that's something I yanked from someone writing about zoomers. That while the millenials were trying to build audiences online, zoomers just wanted to chill out and talk to their friends online. And as a xennial or whatever it's called (born 80) that appeals AF to me! That's the internet I remember with mailing-lists and IRC.
2020-09-07 14:11:31 sandra The cozy
2020-09-07 14:11:43 sandra The word "cozy" was my word for it
2020-09-07 14:11:50 sandra So I guess I did contribute a little
2020-09-07 14:12:34 sandra I guess it's my cheap-ass rebranding of kensanata's "smolnet"
2020-09-07 14:12:44 felix Funny, today we were just discussing how Mastodon copies much more of Twitter's bad design than intended.
2020-09-07 14:12:53 @tomasino oooh, a masto thing
2020-09-07 14:13:07 felix Over on twtxt.net, and on GitHub.
2020-09-07 14:13:22 kvothe so the thing is, I think there's a HUGE number of folks that want something "cozy"
2020-09-07 14:13:41 @tomasino born 80 represent!
2020-09-07 14:14:02 kvothe we all talk about it in different ways, there's no consensus, but gemini is one example
2020-09-07 14:14:10 felix Yeah!
2020-09-07 14:14:32 felix flounder.online makes it explicit, but others share the goal.
2020-09-07 14:15:05 kvothe YES, EXACTLY
2020-09-07 14:15:08 kvothe err
2020-09-07 14:15:11 kvothe sorry, caps lock
2020-09-07 14:15:26 sandra My li'l agesist rant is that Gen Xers, Boomers & Silents they are just happy & impressed to be allowed to even use the Internet in the first place, and Millenials, they were swimming in it so they didn't see anything wrong with Insta, Facebook, 4chan etc. But we who were born in between, Xennials or w/e, we grew up with modems and pre-HTML 3.2 Netscape and Lynx-except-not-ironically and IRC and usenet and mailing li
2020-09-07 14:15:26 sandra sts, the Eternal September era was our teen years.
2020-09-07 14:16:49 kvothe I'm just a little younger, barely in the cusp of Millenial
2020-09-07 14:17:00 sandra TBH I think that's not necessarily tied to a particular year of birth as much as it is a particular, uh, era of when you first went online
2020-09-07 14:17:36 felix Exactly! I was born in '77, but only got online in '99.
2020-09-07 14:17:54 felix So I caught the tail end of Geocities and Usenet.
2020-09-07 14:17:58 kvothe sandra: that's a good point. I missed usenet, but remember Geocities
2020-09-07 14:18:02 sandra I went online mid teens, like 95
2020-09-07 14:18:19 sandra Angelfire, Geocities era yes
2020-09-07 14:19:04 sandra I guess not mid teens because mid teens would be (19-13)2+13 which is, uh… 16. I meant 15
2020-09-07 14:19:07 sandra Mid decade
2020-09-07 14:19:19 sandra Math is hard :(
2020-09-07 14:19:50 kvothe brb, moar coffee, also perhaps cereal
2020-09-07 14:20:30 sandra I remember when tokipona first came out, it was such a rival to lojban which I was speaking
2020-09-07 14:21:15 @tomasino yay toki pona
2020-09-07 14:25:07 felix I find it endlessly ironic how after becoming a pro web developer...
2020-09-07 14:25:32 felix ...After spending a few years in a WordPress shop...
2020-09-07 14:25:49 felix ...I went right back to making websites like my first one in 1999.
2020-09-07 14:26:31 felix And frankly it's working out better than wikis ever did.
2020-09-07 14:26:37 @tomasino i'm still making websites professionally. Some are quite fancy. The site which gives me the most joy is https://tomasino.org
2020-09-07 14:26:43 felix I was an enthusiast of wikis, too, for most of this time.
2020-09-07 14:27:12 felix tomasino: :)
2020-09-07 14:28:00 sandra tomasino: Nice use of microformats
2020-09-07 14:28:07 @tomasino thanks
2020-09-07 14:28:13 @tomasino it looks nice in lynx too
2020-09-07 14:30:09 autumnova tomasino: I can confirm, it does.
2020-09-07 14:30:41 sandra I mean no site looks good in my lynx default settings, it's all black and glowy yellow and cyan
2020-09-07 14:31:03 autumnova sandra: Yellow and Cyan? Doesn't tha hurt?
2020-09-07 14:32:03 felix It looks good with CSS on, too. That's rare nowadays.
2020-09-07 14:33:28 sandra https://ellen.idiomdrottning.org/tomasino-ss.png ← this is how it looks. White on black and blue and green and yellow and purple
2020-09-07 14:33:40 kvothe coffee: procured
2020-09-07 14:33:50 felix \o/
2020-09-07 14:33:51 sandra My own site has the same look so that's not a slag on tomasino, it's more of a slag on lynx' defaults
2020-09-07 14:34:57 felix I like them.
2020-09-07 14:35:25 autumnova sandra: I can't handle those colors. I need dark theme everywhere and colors that don't puncture my eyes.
2020-09-07 14:35:38 ⚡ autumnova has sensitive eyes
2020-09-07 14:35:51 sandra I have impaired vision so when a website comes up with dark theme I can't read it very easily
2020-09-07 14:35:56 ⚡ sandra = old
2020-09-07 14:36:05 autumnova I have the opposite problem
2020-09-07 14:36:12 ⚡ autumnova also not young anymore
2020-09-07 14:36:27 easeout i knew some lojban and am reading about toki pona now. thanks for bringing it up
2020-09-07 14:36:58 @tomasino alias lynx='lynx -display_charset=utf8 --lss=/dev/null'
2020-09-07 14:37:05 @tomasino that helps me out quite a bit
2020-09-07 14:37:07 sandra To me that's one of the garbage points about the web, that some sites are bright black-on-white and some are super-low-contrast grey-on-grey instead of those settings being client side
2020-09-07 14:37:38 sandra That's one of the reasons I'm stoked about gmi. The lack of CSS. As much as I love CSS as a language
2020-09-07 14:38:03 easeout yee
2020-09-07 14:38:08 autumnova I feel you. On my "normal" browser I have a custom CSS file loaded for everything in case I need to go there.
2020-09-07 14:38:32 sandra I wish qutebrowser supported per-site user styles
2020-09-07 14:39:27 sandra autumnova: I also have my screen's backlight off and brightness cranked down and (not now because it's day) redshift cranked up
2020-09-07 14:39:42 autumnova I never used redhsift so far.
2020-09-07 14:39:58 autumnova sandra: I hope you don't mind me requesting the follow @ fedi.
2020-09-07 14:41:23 sandra autumnova: I'm happy for everyone who wants to follow to follow
2020-09-07 14:41:26 sandra ♥
2020-09-07 14:42:34 sandra autumnova: Are you on CAPCOM?
2020-09-07 14:43:04 autumnova I think so?
2020-09-07 14:43:17 sandra What's a request follow? It should auto approve right?
2020-09-07 14:43:43 sandra The reply, repeat, favorite buttons on your site don't work for me
2020-09-07 14:43:53 ⚡ sandra = new to Fedi
2020-09-07 14:43:57 autumnova Huh? Really?
2020-09-07 14:43:58 mhj Heyo gemini peeps. Thanks to everyone's advice, I got bombadillo working on my NixOS install by compiling it directly~
2020-09-07 14:44:07 felix Not always. Even if your account isn't locked, sometimes follows go into a queue.
2020-09-07 14:44:11 kvothe I've been meaning to try out Kristall as a gemini client. IIRC, there was a client that did this near thing with generated art as the background
2020-09-07 14:44:19 kvothe s/near/neat
2020-09-07 14:44:27 felix mhj: Woo!
2020-09-07 14:44:41 kvothe nice, mhj!
2020-09-07 14:45:16 mhj Now to spruce my Gemini server and join the rest of you awesome folks~
2020-09-07 14:45:27 mhj :D
2020-09-07 14:45:41 sandra I was gonna reply to the micro / neovim thing
2020-09-07 14:46:59 @tomasino castor, maybe kvothe
2020-09-07 14:47:44 felix Not Geminaut? It has that thing where it gives visual cues as to where you are online.
2020-09-07 14:49:41 kvothe tomasino: ty!
2020-09-07 14:50:37 autumnova sandra: What client are you using? There doesn't seem to be an issue here.
2020-09-07 14:51:47 sandra I just opened https://pleroma.tilde.zone/notice/9yoyLV1SvfAUJRkaP2 in a web browser
2020-09-07 14:52:05 sandra ↑ was @ autumnova
2020-09-07 14:53:13 kvothe I want to like rust, but good grief cargo pulls in the kitchen sink when you build something
2020-09-07 14:54:02 admicos just you wait until two dependencies have different versions of the same library
2020-09-07 14:54:02 felix Don't they all.
2020-09-07 14:54:06 autumnova sandra: If you do it in your browser from my instance, it will not work like you intend to do it.
2020-09-07 14:54:08 sandra kvothe: Using libraries rather than reinventing the wheel can be good practice. Unless it's goes to ridiculous lengths
2020-09-07 14:54:36 sandra autumnova: I haven't encountered this behavior on any other instance. What's any other way to do it?
2020-09-07 14:54:38 kvothe sandra: for sure, I've been a Perl programmer for some time and that's CPAN, too
2020-09-07 14:54:53 sandra kvothe: But you saw my curling into bash post on gem space right?
2020-09-07 14:54:54 felix The Ruby gem system has the same problem.
2020-09-07 14:55:11 autumnova sandra: The easiest way would be to do it from your instance.
2020-09-07 14:55:12 felix You want to install one little utility, and it pulls in dozens of megabytes of deps.
2020-09-07 14:55:24 admicos ain't anyone going to mention npm?
2020-09-07 14:55:25 felix And one of them is native, so it has to be built.
2020-09-07 14:55:37 felix And you have to guess what dev package you're missing.
2020-09-07 14:55:39 kvothe sandra: I haven't, I'll look
2020-09-07 14:55:52 mhj Heyo, is anyone here on the Gemini mailing list DeltaChat?
2020-09-07 14:55:53 felix admicos: That's the punchline.
2020-09-07 14:56:46 kvothe sandra: yes, agreed re: curl | bash
2020-09-07 14:57:03 sandra autumnova: How can I even access your older posts from my instance? If I were to follow you, only your posts from now on would show up as far as I know
2020-09-07 14:57:16 mhj Just wanted to see if I could be invited back into the group
2020-09-07 14:57:41 mhj Since I had wiped the computer that was on it lol
2020-09-07 14:57:44 sandra I'm on the orbitalfox Gemini mailinglist but I'm just a member
2020-09-07 14:57:50 sandra Not on DeltaChat
2020-09-07 14:57:55 mhj Ahhh
2020-09-07 14:57:56 felix sandra: click on her name in the web UI, it should bring up the profile except on your dashboard.
2020-09-07 14:58:08 felix Like any timeline.
2020-09-07 14:58:27 autumnova sandra: There's just 2 posts from me so far, so you don't miss out. I think you would be able to see my older posts in my profile from your instance.
2020-09-07 14:58:52 felix Well, it doesn't always work.
2020-09-07 15:01:48 sandra When I bring up people's profiles on my instance's web UI, all the posts that are on there are their posts from after I started following them
2020-09-07 15:02:06 sandra That's why I've been going over to the other people's instances to check out their older posts
2020-09-07 15:06:26 sandra Even now after following, it says "0 statuses". Which is good in a way because I wouldn't want a thousand years of backlog to be pulled in generally (even if in this example there's only a handful of posts).
2020-09-07 15:06:28 autumnova sandra: I see, in my case it's just not necessary :D
2020-09-07 15:07:56 sandra You'll have to miss out on my rant vs neovim
2020-09-07 15:08:01 admicos sandra: that also happens on (at least my) mastodon instances too. it only shows me the posts my instance received due to getting boosted by someone i follow
2020-09-07 15:08:09 admicos with the exception of pinned posts iirc
2020-09-07 15:08:18 mhj Oh it's awesome that you some of folks are on the fediverse.
2020-09-07 15:08:53 sandra I got on Fedi and Gemini at the same time :D
2020-09-07 15:09:11 mhj If you wanna add me, right now my currently most used instance is fuuma@hackers.town
2020-09-07 15:10:32 mhj That's cool sandra. Glad you're liking both!
2020-09-07 15:13:13 sandra I ended up using this IRC channel more than either :D
2020-09-07 15:13:20 ⚡ sandra = reckless topic hi-jacker
2020-09-07 15:14:22 mhj lol, well, that's IRC for ya
2020-09-07 15:14:24 sandra And I reconnected with an old high-school friend today, also on IRC; he just queried me out of the blue on freenode (and confirmed via email that it actually was him)
2020-09-07 15:15:16 mhj Woah, that's amazing. Hard to believe you could find anyone freenode since it's such a huge network
2020-09-07 15:15:48 sandra You just type /query their nick. I have my last name as nick on there, snan
2020-09-07 15:16:38 mhj I see!
2020-09-07 15:17:21 mhj Also thanks for the suggestion for gem blogs that you sent my way
2020-09-07 15:17:24 sandra np♥
2020-09-07 15:17:39 sandra I don't use gopher
2020-09-07 15:18:20 mhj I use both, but I am liking how gemini is going~
2020-09-07 15:19:51 mhj I'll check out those gem blogs now~
2020-09-07 15:22:48 mhj OK, maybe I won't lol. I have no idea what CAPCOM's or Spacewalk's gemini address is...
2020-09-07 15:23:45 sandra gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/capcom/
2020-09-07 15:24:04 sandra gemini://rawtext.club:1965/~sloum/spacewalk.gmi
2020-09-07 15:24:50 felix gemini.circumlunar.space has links to the popular aggregators, search engines, portals and so on.
2020-09-07 15:25:05 sandra Or you can search for things on GUS: gemini://gus.guru/
2020-09-07 15:25:32 mhj Thanks!
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2020-09-07 15:36:11 mhj Well now I'm exploring all the gem blogs and loving it! Thanks again sandra!
2020-09-07 15:36:42 mhj And felix too, y'all have been <3
2020-09-07 15:36:56 felix You're too kind.
2020-09-07 15:37:56 sandra Welcome to Gemini!
2020-09-07 15:38:16 sandra I've just been here a week, but I backdated my posts hahaha
2020-09-07 15:38:19 sandra Instant credibility
2020-09-07 15:39:00 felix Make that three weeks for me.
2020-09-07 15:39:11 felix But I'm not bringing over my old blog posts.
2020-09-07 15:42:12 easeout i'll second this gemini://idiomdrottning.org:1965/re-parsing-preformatted-alt-text.gmi
2020-09-07 15:42:16 mhj lol. I gotta get a gemblog up and running too. Compared to the rest of the gemverse, I don't have as good programming skills. I know c++ and python, but I'd like to learn more lisp and rust. I'm hoping though I can write good documentation once I get my technical writing cert and/or english major degree.
2020-09-07 15:43:52 easeout i believe you can write good documentation just by working from good examples
2020-09-07 15:44:19 easeout or by putting yourself in the reader's shoes constantly
2020-09-07 15:44:45 felix I found the same skills to be useful in writing fiction and non-fiction.
2020-09-07 15:45:24 felix And I don't mean in the way American journalists always start their stories with an ordinary person doing ordinary things when... once upon a time...
2020-09-07 15:46:13 felix But there *is* a narrative involved either way.
2020-09-07 15:46:20 easeout lol american journalists start their stories with a clickbait headline
2020-09-07 15:46:36 felix Well, the next thing after that. ;)
2020-09-07 15:46:39 easeout :D
2020-09-07 15:47:20 easeout you're right that there are parallels though. when i read journalistic writing i don't want them to bury the lede, just like i want a piece of software's git readme to tell me what it does, clearly, first thing
2020-09-07 15:48:11 sandra To me that's a difference from fiction (where I don't mind a shaggy dog story), not a similarity
2020-09-07 15:48:17 felix But yeah, in both cases you want to imagine yourself right there.
2020-09-07 15:48:48 easeout or like, journalism will usually include context for readers that need it. and in a lot of git repos you arrive right out of a google search or a forum link and you need that orientation
2020-09-07 15:49:15 felix Especially with all the software that doesn't have a proper homepage anymore.
2020-09-07 15:49:18 sandra With RPG modules the worst ones to actually run are the ones that are the most interesting and novel-like to read. When I'm running them I want "'Foo Barson is the killer' as the first sentence. A detective novel for reading purps, I'd want the opposite
2020-09-07 15:49:51 sandra Also I'm kinda happy that README.md is the new homepage (as much as I hate github specificially)
2020-09-07 15:50:09 easeout same re: readmes
2020-09-07 15:50:13 easeout there are very good ones
2020-09-07 15:50:19 sandra Speaking of D&D, it's boatmode time. TTYL darlings
2020-09-07 15:50:30 felix Have fun!
2020-09-07 15:50:35 sandra Thank you felix♥
2020-09-07 15:50:37 easeout 🕊
2020-09-07 15:52:58 felix mhj: anyway, some of the best content I did bring over is literary.
2020-09-07 15:55:57 mhj Oh nice
2020-09-07 15:56:07 mhj BRB, gonna eat
2020-09-07 15:57:34 @tomasino Or readme.txt! https://github.com/jamestomasino
2020-09-07 15:57:42 xfnw tomasino.txt
2020-09-07 15:58:09 xfnw is there a tomasino protocol?
2020-09-07 15:58:20 @tomasino Yep! Plain text
2020-09-07 16:01:09 felix Good one! I wrote about many things as a manual page, but myself?
2020-09-07 16:01:14 felix Never thought of that.
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2020-09-07 16:16:03 ⚡ felix waves!
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2020-09-07 16:27:40 ℹ jan is now known as the_real_jan
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2020-09-07 16:37:01 mhj OK, got the gemini server running again. The SSL cert expired, so yeah. Now it's running again tho :D
2020-09-07 16:37:17 mhj So I am happy ``
2020-09-07 16:39:17 idf guys i have a question, how do you handle ssl client certificates in your servers. Since i want to allow self-signed client certificates and i have a bunch of solutions but i keep reading on the internet that they are unsafe...
2020-09-07 16:39:56 idf im currently considering overriding the verification callback then just do my own verification processes later
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2020-09-07 16:42:50 ⚡ felix waves!
2020-09-07 16:43:47 ⚡ lukee waves to felix
2020-09-07 16:44:12 kevinsan hi idf, it's impractical to do anything other than what you have decided on. verifying requires signing by a CA.
2020-09-07 16:45:18 login tilde CA
2020-09-07 16:45:22 login do it
2020-09-07 16:45:35 kevinsan hi lukee (and felix!). and everyone!
2020-09-07 16:45:46 felix Hello!
2020-09-07 16:45:48 lukee hi
2020-09-07 16:46:29 makeworld idf: Are you talking about Gemini?
2020-09-07 16:46:38 makeworld Just generate your own self-signed cert
2020-09-07 16:46:41 kevinsan login, I was thinking about something like that. it's early in evolution of gemini, and some trusted CAs might be possible since we control the clients and servers
2020-09-07 16:46:59 makeworld They are only "unsafe" on the Web because they're hard to verify. Gemini is designed to work with self-signed certs
2020-09-07 16:47:17 makeworld kevinsan: Don't centralize Gemini plz
2020-09-07 16:47:19 makeworld Lol
2020-09-07 16:47:35 makeworld It was kinda designed explicitly to avoid trusted CAs
2020-09-07 16:47:43 ⚡ lukee updates blog post so people don't think he wants to propose a new table format
2020-09-07 16:48:08 kevinsan lol lukee, i get that it was just an example.
2020-09-07 16:48:15 kevinsan makeworld, ok, i won't - promise!
2020-09-07 16:49:02 makeworld lukee: Your suggestion is interesting, I don't know what to make of it. Seems very extensible, but the table stuff is useful
2020-09-07 16:49:17 kevinsan lukee, but the general principle kind of holds that if meta-data implies layout or formatting, there's a risk that it gets used at the expense of 'default' readability
2020-09-07 16:49:19 swift does anyone else have any issues with astrobotany in bombadillo? I always get "invalid redirect" when watering
2020-09-07 16:49:59 lukee there is a fundamental tension as the protocol becomes more successful
2020-09-07 16:50:01 makeworld swift: Bombadillo has removed support for client certs, I wouldn't use it for Astrobotany. It may still work if you're on an old version but support was never that good
2020-09-07 16:50:13 makeworld I would recommend using Kristall instead
2020-09-07 16:50:15 lukee people will want to spend less time on the web, and more time in gemini
2020-09-07 16:51:00 lukee my preference is that the alt text is primarily a user friendly label
2020-09-07 16:51:02 swift I've had some issues building Kristall, but maybe I'll try again
2020-09-07 16:51:09 swift might be because i'm on macOS though
2020-09-07 16:51:24 swift and I also don't know what I'm doing w/ Qt
2020-09-07 16:51:27 lukee but some hinting could *assist* with rendering, but not be necessary
2020-09-07 16:53:08 felix Until clients do anything at all with alt text, it's all talk.
2020-09-07 16:54:03 lukee yes
2020-09-07 16:54:28 login decentralised signature chain
2020-09-07 16:54:29 lukee there's no killer app for it yet
2020-09-07 16:54:45 login like a web of trust
2020-09-07 16:55:07 kevinsan felix, still, it does seem to be useful bit of the protocol to throw ideas around on
2020-09-07 16:55:21 felix Of course. Always.
2020-09-07 16:56:17 lukee its like proposing a syntax for feed format using gemtext - is it just a bit of fun, or is there real value?
2020-09-07 16:57:10 kevinsan lukee, it's *all* fun, but there's value in fun.
2020-09-07 16:57:32 makeworld swift: macOS build instructions have been updated recently, check it out!
2020-09-07 16:57:34 kevinsan on the subject of feeds, I realise that the reason I haven't done my own is because I 'cannae be arsed' with an XML formt
2020-09-07 16:57:35 felix It's more in how it sounds TBH. Just a feeling.
2020-09-07 16:57:37 lukee On the feed question, I do in fact generate my Atom from gemtext
2020-09-07 16:57:38 lukee gemini://gemini.marmaladefoo.com/blog/2-Jul-2020_GMI_based_feed_generator.gmi
2020-09-07 16:58:06 swift kevinsan: all right, will do!
2020-09-07 16:58:08 lukee from my point of view, one less thing to worry about
2020-09-07 16:58:28 lukee but there is a syntax choice in titling the links
2020-09-07 16:59:47 kevinsan ok, lukee your link is useful to me. amazingly, my kids are pestering me for lettuce (??!) gtg...
2020-09-07 17:00:09 felix That ties into the issue of machine-readable metadata in gemtext.
2020-09-07 17:01:33 lukee I like the idea of absolute minimal syntax, that is human friendly first, but also machine readable
2020-09-07 17:02:01 felix Of course! We'd be foolish to break what we've built, and so soon.
2020-09-07 17:02:33 felix But for example a *lot* of tools use the convention of a line like:
2020-09-07 17:02:40 lukee it leans on the question: which comes first, the users or the machines?
2020-09-07 17:02:49 felix Tags: foo, bar, blah blah
2020-09-07 17:03:54 felix Users, of course, but arguably machines need a little help serving users.
2020-09-07 17:04:42 lukee just a few markers here, and a few delimiters and whitespace there...
2020-09-07 17:05:12 felix Humans, too. Want your device easy to repair? Better accept a big lid with big screws on it.
2020-09-07 17:05:41 lukee but mostly I'm coming to the view that the main project of Gemini is to cultivate a "new collective taste"
2020-09-07 17:05:49 felix :D
2020-09-07 17:09:44 lukee hardware maintenance and repair - that's a whole sorry story
2020-09-07 17:12:36 felix It's the same with software though.
2020-09-07 17:12:51 felix People keep saying the programmer's convenience doesn't matter.
2020-09-07 17:13:22 felix But, uh, guess who writes that software you want fast and bug-free.
2020-09-07 17:13:32 lukee the main challenge is the barriers to entry in writing software and deciding to get involved
2020-09-07 17:14:17 lukee how many people feel inclined to say "do you know what, I shall dip my toe into learning a new programming language, so I can fix that bit of software that is bugging me"
2020-09-07 17:14:52 lukee instead we gave them red notifications and likes
2020-09-07 17:14:59 lukee and App stores
2020-09-07 17:16:01 lukee I feel comforted by the relative simplicity of Gemini in this regard - people are getting involved and trying things out
2020-09-07 17:16:21 felix Yeah. Gemini is bubbling these days.
2020-09-07 17:16:55 felix You can just... up and write. HTML at its most informal doesn't come close.
2020-09-07 17:18:15 lukee yes, I think it hit a very nice sweet spot for developers, as it builds on long established open networking standards, and for authors in that the text format is just... nice
2020-09-07 17:23:02 swift ok sweet, got Kristall up and running on macOS in no time
2020-09-07 17:23:18 swift kevinsan: ^
2020-09-07 17:29:28 felix Congrats!
2020-09-07 17:40:02 idf kevinsan: alright cool thanks
2020-09-07 17:41:22 mhj Gonna write something up about my NixOS experiences, and share my configuration file for it on my gemini. Then I'm also going to detail how I got bombadillo to work on NixOS, and why I probably did a chroot'd Void Linux wrong and it being unneeded(for me) lol
2020-09-07 17:56:08 kevinsan swift: it was makeworld's suggestion (though well done - if you had any issues building, a few paragraphs write-up might help others)
2020-09-07 17:58:58 swift ah gotcha, but no the instructions worked flawlessly!
2020-09-07 18:19:36 @tomasino i think easeout just summed up my view better than i've been able to
2020-09-07 18:19:59 easeout that's a nice compliment, thank you
2020-09-07 18:20:32 @tomasino :)
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2020-09-07 18:38:46 admicos I just shot a new idea into the mailing list under the pre-formatted alt text discussion. Might be interesting to you all
2020-09-07 18:39:17 admicos I *just* came up with it so it might have very glaring flaws, but it sounded good to me as I was writing it
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2020-09-07 19:33:34 lukee admicos: I quite like your proposal - nice and lightweight
2020-09-07 19:52:21 kevinsan admicos, i also like your suggestion. i think if it provides something meaningful primarily to people, but also to machines then its a win.
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2020-09-07 20:13:23 admicos glad at least some people liked it :) i tried to follow a format people might write "naturally", and the only disadvantage i can see is that it isn't as extensible as other proposals, which might not be a big deal, considering gemini
2020-09-07 20:19:59 @tomasino sandra comes in swinging! love it
2020-09-07 20:20:08 @tomasino humans++
2020-09-07 20:20:24 lukee did I drink something funny today?
2020-09-07 20:20:41 @tomasino heh, i don't know?
2020-09-07 20:20:46 @tomasino i love this discussion, though
2020-09-07 20:21:01 @tomasino full of great creative thinking but everyone is keeping humans top of mind
2020-09-07 20:21:28 lukee yes, but its usually "humans like me"
2020-09-07 20:21:58 lukee the anthropocentric centre of us all
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2020-09-07 20:23:23 lukee Do we have to wait a week for solderpunk to wade in?
2020-09-07 20:25:00 @tomasino if he ever does
2020-09-07 20:26:29 kvothe the burnout is real, I suppose!
2020-09-07 20:27:27 @tomasino he's in no hurry
2020-09-07 20:35:32 kevinsan ok, sandra's link to c2 wiki concludes we all have to switch to XML, so if someone wants to write up the gemini XML markup and post it to the ML...
2020-09-07 20:35:48 lukee lol that will go down well
2020-09-07 20:35:54 kevinsan :)
2020-09-07 20:36:02 admicos isn't gemini xml markup just small html
2020-09-07 20:36:18 easeout yeah i would love for solderpunk to weigh in and clarify what the spec is really trying to say about alt text. my replies are based on just the way i read it after all
2020-09-07 20:36:53 lukee admicos: its really the stunted beautiful lovechild of gophermaps and markdown
2020-09-07 20:36:59 easeout but in the meantime i'm having a great time bikeshedding with you all 🍻
2020-09-07 20:39:21 lukee sometimes it feels like we're discussing the American Constitution
2020-09-07 20:40:28 lukee Or some other sacred text
2020-09-07 20:40:51 companion_cube what's the c2 link?
2020-09-07 20:41:05 companion_cube I'd love to read any argumentation in favor of xml, in 2020 :p
2020-09-07 20:41:06 kevinsan or Brexit, though we have a higher chance of succeeding getting XML Gemini markup.
2020-09-07 20:41:23 lukee Oh noes not the B word, kevinsan!
2020-09-07 20:41:25 kevinsan companion_cube, see the mailing list
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2020-09-07 20:42:00 ⚡ kevinsan does not normally mention politics, and made reference more to the absurdity of XML Gemini
2020-09-07 20:42:40 companion_cube ugh, not on the mailing list
2020-09-07 20:42:51 kevinsan hang on, i'll type it for you
2020-09-07 20:43:08 kevinsan http://wiki.c2.com/?HotComments
2020-09-07 20:43:15 admicos cursed idea: alt-text on the bottom backticks of the preformatted text block
2020-09-07 20:43:17 companion_cube :D
2020-09-07 20:43:24 lukee <?xml version="1.0"><lines><line prefix="#">This would do it?</line></lines>
2020-09-07 20:44:14 lukee I guess now is not the time to mention I prefer XML to JSON?
2020-09-07 20:44:36 companion_cube imho both suck badly
2020-09-07 20:44:53 easeout it's ok to have favorites and there are always pros and cons
2020-09-07 20:45:19 easeout like, i think xml is fine for rss and atom because they are a) done, and b) accepted and in wise use
2020-09-07 20:45:31 easeout no need to fix it if it ain't broke
2020-09-07 20:45:39 companion_cube right, of course
2020-09-07 20:46:16 easeout i did write in favor of json feed on the mailing list, but also i don't really feel the need to change it. i just think of the feed mechanisms that are popular that one is easiest so could be a sane default
2020-09-07 20:47:42 kevinsan i think someone made the point that tooling was already available to deal with feeds, and that's compelling enough a reason.
2020-09-07 20:47:57 easeout totally
2020-09-07 20:49:41 kevinsan still, if feeds are being generated, there's no reason not to output multiple formats. I auto-generate a sitemap and search index at once, and will add atom/rss too when i get round to it
2020-09-07 20:49:55 lukee kevinsan: have you ever tried to write Atom by hand?
2020-09-07 20:49:55 easeout also totally
2020-09-07 20:50:27 kevinsan no lukee, i've never really got into feeds either as a reader or a publisher
2020-09-07 20:50:40 sandra I don't think the gmi files should be replaced by xml
2020-09-07 20:51:05 sandra I'm saying the opposite. I don't think gmi files should feature creep up to something like XML or YAML.
2020-09-07 20:51:11 kevinsan sandra, if you mean gemini XML format - that whole thing was a joke of absurdity
2020-09-07 20:51:22 lukee my point is that Atom should be a derived format, not an authored one
2020-09-07 20:51:39 sandra If you have structured complicated data, do not put it in gmi files. Link to it from gmi files.
2020-09-07 20:51:40 kevinsan lukee, i would always derive/generate xml
2020-09-07 20:52:02 lukee but from what - if you use file dates, it is very fragile
2020-09-07 20:52:24 easeout i build atom in my ssg tool. it's just a text template to be populated so was really a one-time cost for my as the developer. and i did learn pretty quick not to use file dates :)
2020-09-07 20:52:33 easeout -for me as
2020-09-07 20:53:00 kevinsan honestly, I don't mind fragile - it's no big deal. but you use a standard title/date format which makes sense
2020-09-07 20:53:17 lukee so I think the point of the discussion is what would be a sensible human-authored source format?
2020-09-07 20:53:26 sandra So the HotComments web page that I linked to, some rando suggests using XML instead of half-assedly reinventing it. Or sexps or JSON or TSV or some other actual _data_ file format when you have actual complicated data
2020-09-07 20:53:32 sandra org-mode, YAML, TOML, idc
2020-09-07 20:54:03 sandra Even sqlite database files
2020-09-07 20:54:10 companion_cube well sometimes you also want something human-readable/writable
2020-09-07 20:54:15 lukee kevinsan: yes, I ended up down that route of using GMI as the source, for my own solution
2020-09-07 20:54:18 companion_cube (sexps might be ok I guess)
2020-09-07 20:54:32 sandra Don't put that in gmi. Gmi is for reading and for following links
2020-09-07 20:54:51 lukee says who?
2020-09-07 20:55:04 lukee it is a useful format for all kinds of things
2020-09-07 20:55:04 sandra I am saying that right now
2020-09-07 20:55:18 sandra That's my 2¢
2020-09-07 20:55:28 kevinsan sandra, even a raw link list can be useful if you name files correctly
2020-09-07 20:55:35 sandra kevinsan: Yes, it can be fantastic
2020-09-07 20:55:39 kevinsan s/correctly/meaningfully/
2020-09-07 20:55:46 lukee sorry, was being rhetorical. I mean theres no need not to make use of the utility of gemtext
2020-09-07 20:55:51 easeout honestly i'm not sure why we are thinking about creating a new syndication format when the syndication format and the article format should not be related at all. for instance atom or rss or json feed can all publish http, gemini, any format, any scheme so long as there is a URL per item
2020-09-07 20:56:08 sandra The existing atom+gmi setup is great
2020-09-07 20:56:31 easeout like, why make a syndication format out of gemtext when it would only be used by us gemini folks
2020-09-07 20:56:47 lukee the point is what do you want to author your feed in?
2020-09-07 20:57:05 lukee and for the ordinary human gemini writers who cant write atom
2020-09-07 20:57:12 sandra The point of gmi is to make easy browser. Browser does not need to understand atom. It can read gmi-files generated by something like CAPCOM
2020-09-07 20:57:32 @tomasino people must find new projects to work on! otherwise what will they write about on gemini. :P
2020-09-07 20:57:37 lukee well there are clients who are planning to implement atom support, like amfora
2020-09-07 20:57:58 sandra That is completely bonkers
2020-09-07 20:57:59 lukee maybe others too, solderpunk encouraged it
2020-09-07 20:58:22 easeout implement atom support in what way? or, to what effect
2020-09-07 20:58:22 sandra Supporting atom correctly, not just a subset of it, is really difficult
2020-09-07 20:58:39 easeout like, show a list of links nicely and let you click through to read?
2020-09-07 20:58:41 sandra Since you by design can put in things from other namespaces and schema
2020-09-07 20:58:53 lukee well, the gemlog post format we use for capcom at least I think
2020-09-07 20:59:06 lukee so probably a "sensible" subset
2020-09-07 20:59:09 sandra Making an atom _writer_ is very easy
2020-09-07 20:59:29 sandra As easeout pointed out♥
2020-09-07 20:59:31 kvothe but wait, maybe I can parse this XML with regex!
2020-09-07 20:59:47 @tomasino probably best to add client side javascript in there for some reason
2020-09-07 20:59:49 sandra There are plenty of good XML parsers out there
2020-09-07 20:59:50 lukee erm? plenty of XML libs in most languages
2020-09-07 21:00:03 kvothe (I'm kidding, that was a trope on #perl IRC back in the day)
2020-09-07 21:00:09 easeout well an xml parser is one thing but an atom parser on top of that is still a task
2020-09-07 21:00:14 lukee Oh that old one :)
2020-09-07 21:00:17 easeout however, atom parsers exist
2020-09-07 21:00:19 sandra But the core of Gemini project's simplicity is to not have to do all that kind of stuff
2020-09-07 21:00:32 kevinsan kvothe, i got a minor sinking feeling when i read that.
2020-09-07 21:00:39 kvothe lol
2020-09-07 21:00:44 lukee ...so maybe authors need a simple way to express their feed?
2020-09-07 21:00:51 sandra yes
2020-09-07 21:01:02 easeout i have a simple way to express my feed called index.gmi in the blog folder
2020-09-07 21:01:05 lukee like maybe a format with links in they understand
2020-09-07 21:01:08 easeout it's not a feed, it's just a page
2020-09-07 21:01:13 easeout and search engines can already index it
2020-09-07 21:01:24 easeout but it is arranged like a feed, chronologically
2020-09-07 21:01:35 sandra Best practices for putting your gems in there, like 2020-09-07-name.gmi and then the app removes the date and also uses that date to put it in the correct place in the atom feed
2020-09-07 21:01:36 easeout for aggregators, i have atom
2020-09-07 21:01:38 sandra That's what I'm doing
2020-09-07 21:01:40 lukee its really just the date bit that is missing
2020-09-07 21:01:54 easeout yep sandra pretty much what i'm doing in gloggery
2020-09-07 21:02:10 easeout except i keep the date in the filename cause i think people might like to have it, and i strip only the time of day.
2020-09-07 21:02:15 sandra Except that I have 2020-09-07-name.md and convert it to gmi from md
2020-09-07 21:02:53 lukee back to the question of ad hoc parsing I think :)
2020-09-07 21:03:32 xj9 a feed page could follow a more specific format that's still valid gemtext
2020-09-07 21:03:44 xj9 as a convention maybe?
2020-09-07 21:03:45 sandra gmi to me is a "reading format" like PDF is. And my md files have all kind of super lotsa extended stuff and annotations and metadata and such that the gmi file don't need
2020-09-07 21:03:59 lukee no its a writers format
2020-09-07 21:04:01 lukee as well
2020-09-07 21:04:11 sandra Yes, it can be really good for that
2020-09-07 21:04:18 lukee unlike pdf
2020-09-07 21:04:35 sandra Buuut if you need to put in a bunch of wackorama annotations and metadata and such, that can't be in gmi
2020-09-07 21:04:48 sandra Use a YAML frontmatter that your publisher strips or w/e
2020-09-07 21:04:54 lukee its a good question
2020-09-07 21:05:02 lukee what do we do.
2020-09-07 21:05:09 easeout hey so, here's an idea that leans into gemtext's strengths: a feed aggregator that does not really read feed files, but instead reads pages' total collections of links. you subscribe to a regular gemtext page like a blog index file, and diff the links from the last time you visited to collect the new stuff.
2020-09-07 21:05:10 lukee Atom.xml is an example
2020-09-07 21:05:24 sandra A blogging platform where people can just easily write gmi files and put in the date "on the side somehow" and it generates the atom is a good idea
2020-09-07 21:05:25 xj9 easeout: I like that a lot
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2020-09-07 21:05:48 easeout there would be some noise in the results but boy would it be easy
2020-09-07 21:05:53 lukee easeout: I think that is how spacewalk works
2020-09-07 21:06:15 easeout well great let's just do that lol
2020-09-07 21:06:26 lukee It visits regularly and (my guess) it checks the page hash for changes
2020-09-07 21:06:30 xj9 that was easy
2020-09-07 21:06:51 easeout boy that was such a good idea, somebody already did it hahaha
2020-09-07 21:06:56 sandra No, what easeout and xj9 are saying is to actually look at the diff links, not just the hashes
2020-09-07 21:07:04 lukee yes maybe, but it means the page itself cannot express when the post was published
2020-09-07 21:07:09 sandra Spacewalk is pretty much only "Yup. This page is different since last time."
2020-09-07 21:07:30 easeout oh sandra is right, the link goes to the index page rather than the post
2020-09-07 21:07:38 easeout but it wouldn't be crazy to beef it up to do that
2020-09-07 21:07:39 lukee whereas atom says "this was published on 1/1/2020"
2020-09-07 21:07:51 sandra I think atom.xml is awesome
2020-09-07 21:08:12 sandra Making an atom generator is not complicated. With templates. Shell scripts can do it
2020-09-07 21:08:34 lukee for ordinary mortals?
2020-09-07 21:08:35 sandra The complexity of parsing the atom correctly can be offloaded from the gem clients
2020-09-07 21:08:50 xj9 gemini is easier to parse than any XML format
2020-09-07 21:08:53 sandra Yeah making an atom generator is a good first project after hello world
2020-09-07 21:09:06 kvothe https://tildegit.org/solderpunk/gemfeed
2020-09-07 21:09:27 sandra Right, xj9, I'm saying don't put XML parsing in the gem clients. Offload it from them and instead serve them gem files a la CAPCOM
2020-09-07 21:09:30 lukee kvothe - it is brittle, as it uses file dates I recall
2020-09-07 21:09:39 xj9 I'd be good with just requiring some additional meta in the gemtext feed page
2020-09-07 21:09:48 easeout i think ordinary mortals can build an atom feed with copypasta. the timestamp format is maybe a hurdle
2020-09-07 21:09:57 xj9 nah XML shouldn't be involved
2020-09-07 21:10:20 sandra lukee: Right, instead use date data stored in the "source document" next to, or attached to, the gmi files and strip that away when uploading. Side car! As was suggested when I asked about lang on the mailing list
2020-09-07 21:11:13 sandra I was too lazy to even write the 2 lines of shell needed to write atom so I call touch based on my meta data's dates and then gemfeed uses those "touched" dates
2020-09-07 21:11:25 sandra Except solderpunk forgot to push that commit to the release
2020-09-07 21:11:26 lukee sandra: it would work, but you now have two files to maintain. Fine for folk like us - is it a reasonable expectation for ordinary non-tech writers?
2020-09-07 21:11:50 sandra lukee: Make a gemfeed that looks at the date in the file name is what I'm saying
2020-09-07 21:11:55 easeout if you want to publish to feed readers you need to publish RSS, Atom, or JSON Feed. them's the breaks
2020-09-07 21:12:15 lukee so a naming convention
2020-09-07 21:12:16 easeout in gemini-land, i believe a gemtext-only solution would work, but it should work on any gemtext page like a search engine, not require any extra metadata
2020-09-07 21:12:38 sandra lukee: Yes, a naming convention for a particular generator app, not for "the wild and open web" to be obliged to follow
2020-09-07 21:12:46 easeout a naming convention, or just server-side intelligence
2020-09-07 21:13:17 easeout or, or, keep it dumb and just list new pages in the order you discovered them. if you run it by hour, they are sorted at least that well
2020-09-07 21:13:17 sandra I oppose imposing conventions on others but they're a great solution for your own data conversion purps
2020-09-07 21:13:22 lukee this is in fact what I do, it works for me: gemini://gemini.marmaladefoo.com/blog/2-Jul-2020_GMI_based_feed_generator.gmi
2020-09-07 21:14:28 sandra lukee: I approve of that
2020-09-07 21:14:37 mhj gemini://earthlight.xyz/blog/9.7.20-2-NixOS-A-Radical-Approach-To-OSes.gmi New article I just wrote!
2020-09-07 21:14:48 lukee requires a script on the source server
2020-09-07 21:15:09 sandra I run a script on my work computer and then rsync the gmi files and the atom files up
2020-09-07 21:15:31 sandra Server side logic is what I want back to as opposed to overly heavy clients
2020-09-07 21:15:47 sandra Server side logic or ssg logic
2020-09-07 21:16:17 sandra In my case, like easeout, we use ssg logic but same difference: point is that clients are kept simple & non-obliged
2020-09-07 21:16:37 sandra And the "non-obliged" part is not out of kindness towards them. It's out of "they're gonna mess it up!"-style lack of trust in them
2020-09-07 21:16:57 moody mhj: nice article
2020-09-07 21:17:03 lukee the point is that the ordinary writers will need something they can simply write, or will be running for them
2020-09-07 21:17:11 moody I can vouch for zfs, even zfs on linux has gotten a lot better
2020-09-07 21:17:30 moody despite it not being in tree due to CDDL issues
2020-09-07 21:17:35 mhj I can too, I've used it on FreeBSD for quite some time moody
2020-09-07 21:17:51 sandra lukee: Yes. An app. On the server on on their own computers. As opposed to a format and relying on convention
2020-09-07 21:18:01 sandra People disobey formats and find loopholes in conventions
2020-09-07 21:18:06 moody mhj: oh cool :)
2020-09-07 21:18:27 moody I quite like how FreeBSD does things
2020-09-07 21:18:36 mhj Me too, it's very organized
2020-09-07 21:18:37 lukee formats arent things to be obeyed?
2020-09-07 21:18:38 moody I was happy to seem them decide to rebase on the openZFS project
2020-09-07 21:18:42 easeout me too big time re: freebsd
2020-09-07 21:19:19 mhj it's what I run the gemini server on :D
2020-09-07 21:19:40 moody mine does a bit indirectly
2020-09-07 21:19:44 moody its running on a bhyve vm
2020-09-07 21:19:59 easeout i liked the article, mhj. bombadillo had a bad time with the hard wraps though
2020-09-07 21:20:07 sandra This is my piece and I don't have much to add to that. Keep gmi simple. Make people use apps to generate atom feeds. Those apps could become part of tilde capsule installations for example. They don't need to be specified as long as the atom feed follows spec.
2020-09-07 21:20:26 mhj Oh I see easeout, I'll have to fix that for future articles.
2020-09-07 21:20:30 easeout nbd :)
2020-09-07 21:21:02 sandra As an example of one thing that's working: some Gemini servers have a directory in the user's home directory for their gem capsule, others have a dedicated directory in /var for that.
2020-09-07 21:21:09 sandra That discrepancy is fine af
2020-09-07 21:21:17 moody the next thing I would love see get added to fbsd is some of the same work that has gone in to wireguard in linux and obsd
2020-09-07 21:21:27 easeout as much as i am down with the goal of making gemini content as easy as possible to write and syndicate, syndication is an existing ecosystem and i think an existing syndication format is simply the price of entry
2020-09-07 21:22:10 sandra Similarly some tilde capsules could have a date sidecar file, others could have a file name convention, others yet could have a specific gmi file that their atom generator parsed. As long as we other people outside of that bubble can go there and see normal, un-specific gmi files and normal plain vanilla atom files
2020-09-07 21:22:10 lukee not much to disagree with here
2020-09-07 21:22:39 sandra Atom is great
2020-09-07 21:22:49 sandra There… Is also a publish side to atom that's rarely used
2020-09-07 21:22:54 easeout but i also think something like capcom/spacewalk could be built without relying on users creating a second feed page in addition to their blog index gemtext page. and i think all that's needed is that server to just do it, not any additional conventions
2020-09-07 21:22:56 lukee except perhaps the gap between the ordinary user and publishing as atom
2020-09-07 21:23:32 lukee We are assuming the users of Gemini are very computer literate
2020-09-07 21:23:37 sandra lukee: The ordinary user can't write a Gemini server either
2020-09-07 21:23:41 lukee which they probably are
2020-09-07 21:23:45 lukee right now
2020-09-07 21:23:46 sandra Some can't even install one. They use sites
2020-09-07 21:23:53 easeout right, there is a future growth arc
2020-09-07 21:23:54 sandra It's up to those sites to figure out the atom sitch
2020-09-07 21:24:30 sandra There's no requirement for clients to understand atom or XML. Separate apps such as CAPCOM are doing the job very well
2020-09-07 21:24:48 easeout i think eventually we want web readers to become gemini readers, to become gemini writers, to become gemini hosts and developers … there is a funnel and people will fall off of it so each thing we can make easier will be an improvement
2020-09-07 21:25:00 kvothe to be fair, I'd love to have my client perform the role of spacewalk, too
2020-09-07 21:25:10 easeout however! regular mortals are probably just gonna get on gemtext.blue or something and get their feed for free
2020-09-07 21:25:30 lukee well. I think the point is that users will have their different feed set to be monitored, and the client is a natural place to go to get content
2020-09-07 21:25:34 easeout kvothe, i love it
2020-09-07 21:26:15 sandra Right. Keep clients simple. And gemtext.blue, gig's url/execute routing, the gemfeed→capcom interplay, none of that complexity is something that clients are ever exposed to. They just live in the happy land of parsing gmi
2020-09-07 21:26:32 sandra Unlike the bloated clients of w3c land
2020-09-07 21:26:45 djph .2
2020-09-07 21:26:47 lukee no, because I may not want the feeds in capcom, I have my own
2020-09-07 21:26:48 sandra I've said
2020-09-07 21:26:56 sandra I've said my piece and am repeating myself at this point
2020-09-07 21:27:20 sandra lukee: You can run your own CAPCOM, it's open source
2020-09-07 21:27:34 lukee thats fine for me
2020-09-07 21:27:50 sandra Or there could be a serverside service that does that for peeps
2020-09-07 21:27:54 easeout i kind of want to make a browser now. one that is also a feed reader. bookmarks = subscriptions.
2020-09-07 21:27:59 lukee maybe
2020-09-07 21:28:24 lukee like the infamous (shudder) Google reader?
2020-09-07 21:28:31 sandra easeout: Feed reader apps are fine, I use them myself, love them. Don't make it part of the mandated "this is gmi 2.0"
2020-09-07 21:28:40 ⚡ kvothe clones spacewalk
2020-09-07 21:28:56 xj9 there can't be a gemini 2, there's no version field
2020-09-07 21:28:59 lukee easeout: I think amfora will be first out of the block
2020-09-07 21:29:07 sandra Some feed readers have built in web rendering. Much easier with built in gmi rendering
2020-09-07 21:29:09 easeout oh this is browser only, not a format change
2020-09-07 21:29:12 easeout this idea
2020-09-07 21:29:18 sandra Like imagine something like snownews but it can understand gmi
2020-09-07 21:30:16 easeout kind of like, solderpunk has been writing about living offline and just syncing from now and then … this kind of browser would support that kind of workflow
2020-09-07 21:30:23 lukee sandra: I dont think the expectation is a feed reader in your client is gmi 2.0
2020-09-07 21:31:41 sandra lukee: What I'm protesting is extending gmi
2020-09-07 21:31:58 lukee I can't see any extensions here
2020-09-07 21:32:01 easeout yeah in this case i'm not adding to gmi.
2020-09-07 21:32:07 xj9 easeout: would your browser do a cache proxy? i was thinking of doing something like a geminifs that always tries to fetch the current page, but still returns the most recent copy if there is no network.
2020-09-07 21:32:29 easeout i think that would be reasonable, xj
2020-09-07 21:32:34 sandra lukee: In which case there is no fight
2020-09-07 21:32:35 easeout cause i would need some basis on which to compare links before and after
2020-09-07 21:32:43 easeout may as well just keep the page; it's not like gemtext is a lot of data
2020-09-07 21:33:32 easeout i really dig this little ecosystem. i get inspired to do projects here more than most places
2020-09-07 21:34:39 sandra easeout: this souped-up spacewalk does trip my "this would encourage conventions" alarm though. It expects things from index.gmi that aren't always true
2020-09-07 21:35:40 easeout i'm not sure i follow, do you have an example?
2020-09-07 21:35:52 easeout i am just thinking i could parse links on any page and identify new ones on a subsequent check
2020-09-07 21:36:14 sandra Even spacewalk itself has issues. My index.gmi almost never changes, it has links to two subcategories. Spacewalk guy asked me to select one of them to submit. So updates to the other category are not detected
2020-09-07 21:36:24 xj9 a simple gemini spider would be a lot more versatile than a feed parser
2020-09-07 21:36:50 easeout oh i see. yeah, i would just get _every link_
2020-09-07 21:37:05 sandra Sometimes links are removed, sometimes inserted out of order, sometimes the page the link links to is updated without the link changes
2020-09-07 21:37:06 easeout i mentioned above it would be a little noisy, but i think it'd be worth it
2020-09-07 21:37:07 xj9 could run locally or on a grid if you're doing inferno or plan9 stuff
2020-09-07 21:37:36 sandra My index.gmi has two links. texts.gmi and images.gmi are changing
2020-09-07 21:38:04 easeout ok. in my mind somebody would subsrcibe to texts.gmi or images.gmi or both
2020-09-07 21:38:10 easeout if those are the pages with lists of items on them
2020-09-07 21:39:00 sandra And here is where the "conventions" enter the picture. It expects pages to follow a convention of being an updated list of links
2020-09-07 21:39:28 xj9 well if you are using a spider, it would just be a mirror of the site
2020-09-07 21:39:31 sandra Instead of maybe an explorable tree of lists of lists
2020-09-07 21:39:46 easeout oh so you're thinking about link structure, i see
2020-09-07 21:39:52 lukee hypertext is not just a tree
2020-09-07 21:40:11 sandra lukee: all kinds of structures can exist
2020-09-07 21:40:18 easeout so like, i'm thinking either you want to subscribe to _a page_ like spacewalk and just know when that one page updates, or you want to subsrcibe to _a page's links_ and know when there are new URLs linked to
2020-09-07 21:40:50 sandra And sites that don't follow that structure are left out
2020-09-07 21:41:17 easeout huh, are there blogs that don't do one of those two things?
2020-09-07 21:41:44 easeout or like, do you have an example in mind i could use to see where you're coming from
2020-09-07 21:41:52 lukee I think sandra is talking about sites, easeout is talking about pages?
2020-09-07 21:42:06 kvothe I remember one of the frustrating things about a similar crawler for gopher, moku-pona: sometimes people would put system time in the gopher page response
2020-09-07 21:42:07 xj9 a site without links would also be hard to index
2020-09-07 21:42:12 sandra Like, wiki-like sites where you want to subscribe to latest articles
2020-09-07 21:42:21 kvothe thus, it always changed
2020-09-07 21:42:31 @tomasino a true true
2020-09-07 21:42:35 @tomasino hit gemini://tomasino.org
2020-09-07 21:42:43 easeout kvothe, but if you subscribe to the links then you don't need to pay attention to anything but links
2020-09-07 21:42:47 @tomasino do i still have the date-time up top?
2020-09-07 21:42:56 kvothe easeout: good point
2020-09-07 21:42:57 @tomasino i do
2020-09-07 21:43:13 kvothe yeppers
2020-09-07 21:43:31 easeout ok that makes sense sandra
2020-09-07 21:43:32 @tomasino if you don't watch for page content changing all those pika-logs or whatever they're called won't show up again
2020-09-07 21:43:51 easeout but in that case, wouldn't a wiki have a "latest posts" page that listed them though? like wikipedia could do that on RSS
2020-09-07 21:43:55 sandra That's why I like atom
2020-09-07 21:44:02 @tomasino atom is good
2020-09-07 21:44:13 easeout maybe i could stand to learn more about what atom can do
2020-09-07 21:44:42 xj9 to be honest, i just don't want to deal with xml
2020-09-07 21:45:03 @tomasino we have a few atom generators out there now
2020-09-07 21:45:10 xj9 and from my perspective, atom is just as much of a convention as a feed-type page writting in gemini
2020-09-07 21:45:11 @tomasino you could just run the script and be good
2020-09-07 21:45:27 @tomasino atom is well established with a huge wealth of software and libraries
2020-09-07 21:45:31 xj9 i already wrote my own atom generator and i didn't enjoy it
2020-09-07 21:45:48 @tomasino we're not the rust community. We don't need to reinvent the wheel
2020-09-07 21:45:49 @tomasino :D
2020-09-07 21:45:57 sandra Xj your nick is similar to my XML parser. gemini://idiomdrottning.org/xj.gmi
2020-09-07 21:46:11 kvothe I need this in a crate post-haste
2020-09-07 21:47:29 xj9 i have a problem with complexity, xml is complex so i don't like it
2020-09-07 21:47:52 sandra https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/standards.png making a new format will add complexity to the world
2020-09-07 21:48:02 xj9 that's ok
2020-09-07 21:48:06 xj9 i don't care what they do
2020-09-07 21:48:37 sandra There is also JSON feed. Which I don't like but it is, like atom and RSS, pre-existing
2020-09-07 21:48:40 xj9 entropy in general is not avoidable
2020-09-07 21:49:11 xj9 i'm partial to devine's ndtl format, which we used to use for wiki feeds
2020-09-07 21:49:11 moody JSON seems bit less annoying them xml in my opinion
2020-09-07 21:49:55 xj9 json is easier to parse
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2020-09-07 21:50:30 sandra That's why I did the xj XML->JSON filter :)
2020-09-07 21:50:49 moody I wouldn't be against some sort of new feed format
2020-09-07 21:51:17 sandra I'm against new feed formats
2020-09-07 21:51:30 moody To me some of the charm of gemini is getting the chance to revist these old wheels and go with something easier to write code for
2020-09-07 21:52:48 moody but I haven't been around here for super long, so I am not sure what other peoples interpratation is
2020-09-07 21:52:50 lukee moody: after all that is what gemini has done in itself
2020-09-07 21:53:20 lukee why invent Gemini if you have the web? (rhetorical question, please dont anyone answer this!)
2020-09-07 21:53:49 moody lukee: I would agree, so to me coming up with a feed system is within the same spirit
2020-09-07 21:54:01 sandra Why make Gemini as cumbersome and overgrown as the web
2020-09-07 21:54:02 lukee yes there is something in that
2020-09-07 21:54:04 @tomasino if it solves a problem go for it
2020-09-07 21:54:24 @tomasino gemini solves a problem. are there enough problem with feed formats that we need a new one? cool. solve away
2020-09-07 21:54:42 moody sandra: I think there is also partially responsibility for the inclusion of other standards
2020-09-07 21:54:48 moody if that makes sense
2020-09-07 21:55:50 lukee one of the things I really like about gemini is the low barriers to entry for writers.
2020-09-07 21:56:35 moody lukee: I agree it was really satisfying to see it crop up in ecosystems that by modern standards are quite limited
2020-09-07 21:56:36 lukee if possible, they shouldnt have to rely too much on the tools from wizards to get their content out there
2020-09-07 21:57:48 moody I thougt the orignal idea of a csv like format sounded great fwiw
2020-09-07 21:58:16 lukee the web promised a sort of parity for writers and readers, but then the writers got lumbered with CMS and Word press
2020-09-07 21:58:28 sandra You guys are killing me with this... I had a Gemini site up, but now in order for peepsnto be able to follow it I need to implement a completely new format!?
2020-09-07 21:59:10 moody sandra: well I think the idea is that these changes woul be easy to create for server writers
2020-09-07 21:59:45 sandra You are dropping homework in my lap is what you are doing
2020-09-07 22:00:19 lukee no one is making you do anything
2020-09-07 22:00:44 lukee we are discussing relative merits of different options
2020-09-07 22:01:00 moody What I would like to see is not a new 'standard' so to say, just something line orientated to works for both humans and machines
2020-09-07 22:01:04 sandra And I am stating some drawbacks of one of the proposed courses of action
2020-09-07 22:01:32 lukee all standardisation is tradeoffs
2020-09-07 22:02:11 lukee what is the goal, who are the users, what are the applications, what are the intended outcomes?
2020-09-07 22:03:36 sandra Non-wizards to read and write is a good thing. Non-wizards can't write their own gemini server. They need to rely on installing existing ones or using someone else's setup. Weä
2020-09-07 22:03:46 sandra we already have that situation
2020-09-07 22:05:27 lukee and what further infrastructure will they have to become cognisant of - run this script, install this app, etc
2020-09-07 22:05:35 sandra How about a new format -- with an app that turns that into atom
2020-09-07 22:05:36 moody Just now catching up on some of the discussion on the ML, I think Ranf's idea is quite nice
2020-09-07 22:10:17 moody Clients can chose to implement a feed like system if they like and servers can opt in to providing a feed like file for subdirs
2020-09-07 22:10:18 sandra With the understanding that everyine got into Gemini for different reasons, I got into Gemini after reading this web page. https://drewdevault.com/2020/03/18/Reckless-limitless-scope.html. Creating a new format, I see as increasing scope
2020-09-07 22:12:18 lukee that is a great polemic
2020-09-07 22:13:40 lukee For me, it is also related to the simplicity of the technology, being just on the edge of useful enough
2020-09-07 22:14:08 lukee and to explore the notion of a human scaled hypertext
2020-09-07 22:15:12 lukee where what makes sense at a human scale should drive the technology
2020-09-07 22:15:31 lukee (we will have different views on that)
2020-09-07 22:20:19 sandra Technology that has a public interface (formats, protocols and conventions) has a different degree of responsibility than technology that doesn't (specific implementations and source formats).
2020-09-07 22:21:21 sandra The latter aren't necessarily making the system as a whole more complex. The former always are.
2020-09-07 22:24:05 sandra CAPCOM introduced complexity when it asked people to have atom feeds in order to participate. Trying to amend that decision is adding to complexity rather than taking away from it.
2020-09-07 22:24:30 sandra Uh, sleep time. Ttyl.
2020-09-07 22:34:12 sandra That's enough parade-raining for one day from me
2020-09-07 22:57:11 makeworld I am also against new feed formats
2020-09-07 22:57:53 lukee hi makeworld
2020-09-07 22:58:09 makeworld The feed formats being proposed seem to attempt to be nicely viewable in gemtext, and what's the point? A feed is supposed to be machine-readable and therefore strongly specced. But at that point you have to implement parsing for it, and then the added complexity is obvious
2020-09-07 22:58:11 makeworld Hello!
2020-09-07 22:58:24 lukee there was some excitement earlier at the prospect of client feed curation. Is that still coming in your next drop of amfora?
2020-09-07 22:58:27 makeworld Wanted to say I kinda agree with easeout about your proposal
2020-09-07 22:58:56 lukee it seems to have got everyone's spirits up
2020-09-07 22:58:56 makeworld lukee: It is! I was sad I couldn't realize it in v1.5.0 after the initial excitement, but it is still planned, hopefully for v1.6.0
2020-09-07 22:59:30 makeworld All that's left is the graphical stuff like modals for adding new feeds and the like, and then lots of testing
2020-09-07 23:01:49 lukee sounds good
2020-09-07 23:02:07 moody makeworld: thanks for you work on amfora, its quite the nice client :)
2020-09-07 23:02:15 lukee I'm going to call it a night here - catch you all some time soon...
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2020-09-07 23:02:19 makeworld You're welcome! Glad you like it :)
2020-09-07 23:02:22 makeworld See you lukee
2020-09-07 23:02:31 moody it was the first client I used to test the server I wrote
2020-09-07 23:02:57 makeworld Oh yeah? Nice
2020-09-07 23:04:40 makeworld I've tried to keep the gemini client lib it uses very compliant so I find it (and gemget) handy for testing
2020-09-07 23:04:51 makeworld Or very strict, rather
2020-09-07 23:06:14 ⚡ makeworld afk, 🍕
2020-09-07 23:43:03 autumnova makeworld: Big thanks for all your work on amfora.
2020-09-08 00:03:09 makeworld Thanks also :)
2020-09-08 00:03:48 makeworld Feel free to contribute some code or cash!
2020-09-08 00:04:33 autumnova I wish I could do both, but I can't do neither since I can't code for my life and I'm unemployeed :(
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2020-09-08 00:11:57 djph can always learn to code :)
2020-09-08 00:13:33 autumnova I'm on it. I first need to learn PHP for my degree, before I can do other things.
2020-09-08 00:14:26 djph oh, I'm sorry.
2020-09-08 00:15:23 kevinsan lol djph, is that a dig at our darling of the web, PHP?
2020-09-08 00:15:42 autumnova I feel sorry for myself. I'm comfortable with shell scripting and that's it. I still have no idea why the final exam for my CS degree requires HTML/PHP/MySQL
2020-09-08 00:15:47 djph condolences for poor autumnova's liver
2020-09-08 00:16:00 moody thats some CS program
2020-09-08 00:16:05 moody mine was just lots of Java
2020-09-08 00:16:08 djph ^
2020-09-08 00:16:17 autumnova I'd be more comfortable with Java.
2020-09-08 00:16:45 makeworld That's a weird requirement, too bad
2020-09-08 00:17:04 makeworld Also no worries, glad to hear you like the client :)
2020-09-08 00:17:28 autumnova As soon as I have my degree (~2 months from now), I will learn Go.
2020-09-08 00:17:50 autumnova Hopefully I will be able to contribute this year ^^
2020-09-08 00:18:19 makeworld Ha nice! Good luck
2020-09-08 00:18:25 autumnova Thx.
2020-09-08 00:18:38 moody Go is a great language
2020-09-08 00:18:43 moody I look forward to go2 quite a bit
2020-09-08 00:19:37 kevinsan i can't shake the fact it's google's, in light of what android bacame
2020-09-08 00:20:05 moody It's mostly Pike and Ken's baby
2020-09-08 00:20:38 kevinsan that's the alluring bit, but i doubt they own the runtime or libraries
2020-09-08 00:20:39 moody The stdlib has a lot of plan9 libc influence and the compilers they started with were ken's plan9 compiler
2020-09-08 00:21:29 moody even done to the whole interface design concept
2020-09-08 00:21:59 moody google has slowly been creeping in on it I would say though, once they saw it made a lot of money
2020-09-08 00:22:31 makeworld How so?
2020-09-08 00:23:07 moody the recent go.dev proxy stuff
2020-09-08 00:23:11 moody is one example that comes to mind
2020-09-08 00:23:42 moody I like the addition of generics but given how much Pike opposed it I was suprised to see it get in to the pipeline
2020-09-08 00:24:47 makeworld Yeah that is kind of annoying. But the idea of a proxy makes sense to a degree, and it's open source
2020-09-08 00:24:58 makeworld Like there are already other groups hosting their own proxies that you can switch to right away
2020-09-08 00:25:43 moody I dont mind the influence too much, just something to mention
2020-09-08 00:28:11 moody I am pretty excited to get generic Map and Fold
2020-09-08 00:34:54 autumnova Already, 2:35 here. Good night everyone o/
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2020-09-08 02:47:14 easeout https://github.com/kconner/gemini-subscription-cli
2020-09-08 02:47:35 easeout here is a first try at subscribing to gemini pages' links as if they were syndication feeds
2020-09-08 02:48:13 easeout 1. run make; it will make an empty subscription URLs file
2020-09-08 02:48:30 easeout 2. add URLs to the file, one per line
2020-09-08 02:48:54 easeout i tested with the URLs of my glog and capcom
2020-09-08 02:49:19 easeout 3. run make again; it will fetch the pages, trim down to links, and emit them to new-links.gmi and stdout
2020-09-08 02:49:55 easeout 4. run make again later after pages have changed; it will replace new-links.gmi with only newly discovered links
2020-09-08 02:52:19 easeout this is a proof of concept; you could build on it or reimplement it to create a feed reader, or a browser that put unread badges on bookmarks, or to statically generate a private news feed page for yourself
2020-09-08 02:53:06 easeout in short, RSS / Atom / JSON Feed are great for participating in the web syndication ecosystem
2020-09-08 02:53:43 easeout as an alternative, Gemini and Gemtext are simple enough that you can consume gemini pages _as if_ they were syndication feeds
2020-09-08 02:56:23 easeout i think that could take some of the burden off of content creators' shoulders, if it becomes something that is known and available and easy to reach for
2020-09-08 02:57:40 easeout for it to be available like that, i think it would have to be in a browser.
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2020-09-08 09:43:08 autumnova Good morning everyone o/
2020-09-08 09:47:51 sandra :)
2020-09-08 09:49:33 autumnova Good morning sandra o/
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2020-09-08 10:52:42 kevinsan easeout, thanks for sharing that. I added verify=0 to socat's connect string because [certificates!]
2020-09-08 10:52:51 kevinsan socat "openssl:${url_domain}:${url_port},verify=0"
2020-09-08 11:16:42 rmgr exit
2020-09-08 11:16:43 rmgr exit
2020-09-08 11:16:47 rmgr haha
2020-09-08 11:16:56 rmgr youre on irc rmgr
2020-09-08 11:23:26 ⚡ autumnova made some strawberry/raspberry tea for everyone
2020-09-08 11:27:31 ⚡ kevinsan appreciates the kindness, and also the generosity in spirit, at least
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2020-09-08 11:47:30 ⚡ idf gets some sarmale
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2020-09-08 14:21:32 ⚡ felix waves!
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2020-09-08 14:27:54 felix Hello!
2020-09-08 14:36:44 acdw o/ felix
2020-09-08 14:36:54 felix How are you?
2020-09-08 14:37:29 acdw I'm doing prety good; it's cold @ work tho
2020-09-08 14:37:35 felix Aw.
2020-09-08 14:37:44 acdw like ... 65 in here (18 C)
2020-09-08 14:37:55 acdw haha thanks for the support
2020-09-08 14:38:04 felix AC turned all the way up?
2020-09-08 14:38:14 acdw how are you doing?
2020-09-08 14:38:14 acdw I don't know what they did; I guess it is
2020-09-08 14:38:36 felix I made a thing! Not gemini related, though I did post it there first.
2020-09-08 14:38:40 acdw oh nice!
2020-09-08 14:38:43 acdw link?
2020-09-08 14:39:38 @tomasino just gotta guess
2020-09-08 14:39:39 felix gemini://gemini.ctrl-c.club/~nttp/toys/snaked.gmi
2020-09-08 14:39:41 @tomasino aww
2020-09-08 14:40:06 acdw haha
2020-09-08 14:40:30 acdw hey tomasino I saw your thing on tilde.black ... too bad! but i'm glad you're at peace with the decision
2020-09-08 14:41:01 @tomasino thanks!
2020-09-08 14:41:04 @tomasino still got cosmic voyage
2020-09-08 14:41:23 makeworld What happened to tilde.black? It doesn't even resolve anymore?
2020-09-08 14:41:49 makeworld Apparently "DNSSEC BOGUS"
2020-09-08 14:42:02 makeworld *"DNSSEC Bogus"
2020-09-08 14:42:14 @tomasino gopher://gopher.black/1/phlog/20200905-goodbye-tilde-black
2020-09-08 14:42:27 acdw aww yeah cosmic voyage. okay I *have* to make an account on there now so I can have a home that's watched over by tomasino
2020-09-08 14:42:46 @tomasino :D!!
2020-09-08 14:43:18 acdw I'm gonna be honest I think I signed into ~black ... once?
2020-09-08 14:44:54 login me too
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2020-09-08 14:45:42 felix At least it was relatively painless.
2020-09-08 14:46:38 felix People who run pubnixes are brave.
2020-09-08 14:47:29 acdw oh that reminds me I've had this one person wanting to sign up for breadpunk for like a week...i just keep forgetting to add them
2020-09-08 14:51:28 makeworld Sorry to hear that tomasino
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2020-09-08 16:19:08 easeout thanks for the revision kevinsan
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2020-09-08 17:40:36 easeout i wrote up that idea for subscribing to any page on the ML and my glog.
2020-09-08 17:44:34 felix It echoes some concerns from the IndieWeb community.
2020-09-08 17:52:53 paper I am writing a program which needs to accept user input and display it. What should I do if the input starts with =>? I think escaping isn't an option for gemini if I didn't miss it in the spec. a space before it maybe?
2020-09-08 17:56:26 felix I think a space before it is plenty enough.
2020-09-08 17:56:53 paper great, thanks
2020-09-08 17:57:11 sandra Maybe ``` before and after
2020-09-08 17:57:24 sandra paper
2020-09-08 17:57:43 moody I thought special characters has to be escpaed
2020-09-08 17:58:36 moody because input is sent back in the URL, it is subject to html escape code encoding
2020-09-08 17:58:51 moody err s/html/URL/
2020-09-08 17:58:54 sandra paper, I just tested the ``` before and after method and it worked
2020-09-08 17:59:06 felix What Sandra says. That would be the foolproof method according to spec.
2020-09-08 17:59:25 sandra gemini://idiomdrottning.org/scrappy.gmi
2020-09-08 17:59:29 paper sandra: that's a way too, but what if the user inputs ```
2020-09-08 18:00:34 sandra How to quine gemtext♥
2020-09-08 18:01:08 sandra Put some invisible bull unicode char before
2020-09-08 18:01:21 sandra Just brainstorming, I don't know
2020-09-08 18:01:44 paper ok, I will try asking on the ML, thanks for helping
2020-09-08 18:02:37 sandra Very unusual that the format doesn't have escapes for its control characters
2020-09-08 18:02:40 sandra Good find paper
2020-09-08 18:02:47 sandra Achilles record player
2020-09-08 18:03:21 xj9 base64 no?
2020-09-08 18:03:54 xj9 oh to display, sticking it between ``` should be good as long as the client does the toggles correctly
2020-09-08 18:08:32 paper xj9: but if the user inputs ```, it will invert all next preformatting
2020-09-08 18:10:43 felix A space before should cause the line to be parsed as plain text though.
2020-09-08 18:12:26 paper that seems to be the best way for now
2020-09-08 18:21:13 felix Anyway, see you!
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2020-09-08 21:47:56 autumnova I did hide Firefox.
2020-09-08 21:48:05 autumnova That was the wrong window :D
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2020-09-08 23:24:11 kevinsan Spec says: SNI is mandatory to facilitate name-based virtual hosting. However, it also defines an absolute URL for the request.
2020-09-08 23:25:05 kevinsan The request alone is enough for name-based virtual hosting. SNI seems almost pointless, particularly given that its sent plain-text.
2020-09-08 23:26:47 kevinsan The only advantage I see is that I can potentially have multiple server certificates, one for each host, but then self-signed certificates are used, so who needs that extra complexity?
2020-09-08 23:27:13 kevinsan Am I missing something?
2020-09-08 23:49:34 CommunistWolf ESNI is a thing now
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2020-09-08 23:50:01 CommunistWolf it's handy to have before you process the request in some scenarios
2020-09-08 23:52:00 moody I've seen a couple requests for favicon.txt on my server, whats is that used for?
2020-09-08 23:56:41 admicos moody: iirc some clients look for a favicon.txt containing a single emoji to display next to tab names
2020-09-09 00:01:39 kevinsan CommunistWolf, wikipedia states that china blocked ESNI. Without SNI, I could look up and connect to fluffykittens.org, but make the gemini request to downwiththeregime.org
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2020-09-09 05:05:55 rmgr vee: Love the new pages on GUS
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2020-09-09 08:41:02 CommunistWolf kevinsan: it has, for now, in certain combinations
2020-09-09 09:10:44 epoch I kind of want to make a N2L service over gemini, but I'm not sure if any clients other than my own would be able to use it.
2020-09-09 09:11:44 epoch I was thinking of doing it like a gemini-proxy where they'd just submit the URN as the request, instead of sending my whole URL, then encoding the URN into the query string.
2020-09-09 09:12:30 epoch and I'd output a text/uri-list containing where the URN could resolve to.
2020-09-09 10:38:22 [tomasino back: gone 08:29:52]
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2020-09-09 11:31:29 sandra kevinsan: I'm still holding out hope that the certificate sitch will be improved and in that case that could be a cause for separate certs. I mean, my own certs cover the multiple hosts (and is a way to find out which of my hosts are hosted on which server—I have two servers and they each have their own collection of hostnames in their cert files).
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2020-09-09 16:15:55 felix Hello!
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2020-09-09 16:16:46 ⚡ felix waves!
2020-09-09 16:17:27 idf hello
2020-09-09 16:17:39 felix How's it going?
2020-09-09 16:18:11 acdw hi
2020-09-09 16:18:26 acdw trying to figure out wht to put on my capsule today, how're you?
2020-09-09 16:18:44 felix Not very productive either. :)
2020-09-09 16:18:46 idf im planning on writing another more technical blog while my PR is open
2020-09-09 16:20:26 felix Wrote down a thought that barely counts as a blog post, but not on Gemini.
2020-09-09 16:21:54 acdw nice, idf! and felix! writing anything is +++
2020-09-09 16:22:18 felix https://twtxt.net/blog/felixp7/2020/09/09/ive-been-looking-at-blogs-wrong-this-entire-time
2020-09-09 16:24:25 acdw ^ that is really intersting
2020-09-09 16:24:38 acdw makin' me think real differently about the web, thanks!
2020-09-09 16:25:52 idf im also considering making a mirroring daemon for gemini
2020-09-09 16:26:02 idf for gemini pages
2020-09-09 16:26:10 acdw for the web?
2020-09-09 16:26:24 idf no i mean, mirror the same content between multiple servers
2020-09-09 16:26:38 idf of gemini
2020-09-09 16:27:08 felix Could be useful!
2020-09-09 16:27:12 acdw oh oh yes
2020-09-09 16:27:39 idf atm im just boggling with ideas
2020-09-09 16:28:23 acdw such a great feeling!
2020-09-09 16:29:34 idf basically every server in a station(term for the bunch of servers that mirror each other) would have a public feed in json, where every action on the respective server would be recorded
2020-09-09 16:30:01 idf then the other servers check the feed of each other server then does the changes
2020-09-09 16:30:11 idf so you could have a bunch of servers hosting the same stuff
2020-09-09 16:30:27 idf i was thinking of using client certificates to identify the poster of each content
2020-09-09 16:32:37 acdw idf: so basically, the Fediverse but on gemini?
2020-09-09 16:32:43 idf yup
2020-09-09 16:33:17 acdw taht sound pretty interesting tbh
2020-09-09 16:33:45 idf thx
2020-09-09 16:34:19 idf im still not sure how to handle the possibility of modifying the mirrored content
2020-09-09 16:35:20 acdw hm that is tricky
2020-09-09 16:35:49 idf since i want the content to be on each server, so sending a md5 hash with every content would be useless, since that could be changed too
2020-09-09 16:36:05 acdw you wouldn't want md5 anyway, but eyah
2020-09-09 16:36:08 idf yea
2020-09-09 16:36:19 idf just gave an example
2020-09-09 16:36:21 acdw well wouldn't the mirrors know it was changed by geting a new hash?
2020-09-09 16:36:44 idf hmm yea
2020-09-09 16:36:50 acdw what if it was like, a canonical url + hash of content -- so they'd match em up with their db and if it doesn't match, re-download from source
2020-09-09 16:37:02 acdw you'd need a canonical link for them .. ?
2020-09-09 16:37:18 idf sounds interesting
2020-09-09 16:37:24 idf i will think of it
2020-09-09 16:38:53 acdw good luck!
2020-09-09 16:38:59 idf thank you!
2020-09-09 16:39:19 idf i will send more updates if you want, i might post it on the gemini mail list if i get a more standardised thing
2020-09-09 16:40:14 acdw yes please :)
2020-09-09 16:41:20 idf the big picture would be that people could run "stations", as in boards on image/textboards or subreddits on reddit or forum topics if you want, each station would have a theme and rules
2020-09-09 16:42:15 acdw yeah that'd be the thing. but if you could pitch it as like, a fedi on gemini, that might work.
2020-09-09 16:44:36 idf i initially wanted it to be a full on activitypub but for gemini, but after some brainstorm, i just realised i was complicating myself too much
2020-09-09 16:44:47 idf no need for that w3c stuff
2020-09-09 16:46:30 acdw right right
2020-09-09 16:47:49 idf you could see it like space stations floating in gemini space, you can visit each one of them, to post i was thinking of using client side certificates, and a list of authorized certificates shared by all the servers in the station
2020-09-09 16:48:10 felix Got to love this space theme we have going.
2020-09-09 16:48:16 idf indeed
2020-09-09 16:50:04 idf point is, they dont have to be interconnected, they just exist, the only stuff that is interconnected are the servers in a station. Stations dont have to be interconnected, since they would use the same format, so visiting any other station would be the same anyway
2020-09-09 16:51:06 idf so the "fediverse" would be geminispace itself
2020-09-09 16:52:22 idf kinda weird how i came up with all of this from like content mirroring
2020-09-09 16:53:12 felix A good sign!
2020-09-09 16:54:34 idf thanks
2020-09-09 16:58:04 idf I might start writing a draft description soon, seeing you guys are interested :)
2020-09-09 16:59:37 acdw awesome
2020-09-09 17:00:00 felix If nothing else, it will make people think.
2020-09-09 17:00:54 felix My interest is only theoretical anyway.
2020-09-09 17:02:59 idf fair
2020-09-09 17:03:17 @tomasino who built astrobotany again?
2020-09-09 17:04:32 idf michael lazar
2020-09-09 17:06:55 @tomasino right right
2020-09-09 17:07:06 @tomasino someone commented on my "What is Gemini?" video asking how it was made
2020-09-09 17:07:11 @tomasino did he write it up or share source?
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2020-09-09 17:10:56 autumnova tomasino: https://github.com/michael-lazar/astrobotany
2020-09-09 17:11:04 @tomasino thanks!
2020-09-09 17:11:10 ⚡ tomasino goes off to the toobz
2020-09-09 17:11:11 autumnova You're welcome.
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2020-09-09 20:55:38 kevinsan sandra, yes - i hadn't given thought to all the information that's leaked in the server certificate regarding hosts. it's almost like ssl/tls was designed for maximum visibility to snoopers.
2020-09-09 20:59:03 kevinsan gemini had (has) the opportunity to remedy this to some extent by accepting there's no authenticity beyond tofu, but there's strong encryption regardless.
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2020-09-09 21:14:08 griffin I'm having trouble connecting to my host via elpher, but can connect with other clients. If anyone has a moment to help, I'd appreciate if you could try going to gemini://gmb.is and let me know if it is working for you (regardless of your client, but particularly if you're using elpher)
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2020-09-09 21:46:31 kevinsan griffin, kristall fails, openssl s_client fails, amfora succeeds
2020-09-09 21:46:52 kevinsan Geminaut succeeds
2020-09-09 21:47:35 kevinsan av-98 fails
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2020-09-09 21:52:09 kevinsan update: openssl s_client and AV-98 now works: did you change anything?
2020-09-09 21:52:17 griffin I did not :/
2020-09-09 21:53:04 kevinsan maybe your certificate needed to warm up to temperature for maximum efficiency :)
2020-09-09 21:54:38 griffin Lol. That's gotta be it
2020-09-09 21:55:19 kevinsan did you do any recent dns changes or somesuch?
2020-09-09 21:56:11 griffin I did not. I'm poking through the errors now to see if anything stands out
2020-09-09 21:57:18 kevinsan what I notice is that if there's no trailing slash e.g. gemini://gmb.is then it fails in Kristall
2020-09-09 21:57:40 kevinsan but if I add one gemini://gmb.is/ then it succeeds. what server are you using?
2020-09-09 21:58:00 griffin One I wrote :P
2020-09-09 21:58:32 kevinsan ok, so if you receive a request for a directory without a trailing slash, you should really redirect to the directory with a trailing slash
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2020-09-09 22:01:26 kevinsan griffin, out of interest, what language are you using for your server?
2020-09-09 22:01:58 griffin Yeah, that's definitely a bug to fix
2020-09-09 22:02:10 griffin Racket!
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2020-09-09 22:38:33 kevinsan xq, re: those last few lines in chat - there was no problem with Kristall, it was a server issue.
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2020-09-09 23:08:58 griffin Looks like the error I'm getting with elpher is configuration related - as in, it only seems to be a problem with doom emacs, and the TLS configuration generally seems to be correct. Thanks for the help kevinsan, especially since it uncovered the separate dispatch bug :)
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2020-09-09 23:27:57 kevinsan np :)
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2020-09-10 05:49:18 sandra kevinsan: Checking if two addresses have the same host is easy of course (same IP) but finding a whole list is next lev.
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2020-09-10 08:02:19 epoch > how to prevent changing the content
2020-09-10 08:02:32 epoch pgp clear-sign the messages?
2020-09-10 08:03:05 epoch then when you "follow" someone, you download their public key
2020-09-10 08:03:38 epoch content of message includes a copy of the non-changing metadata that goes with the post.
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2020-09-10 13:55:33 felix It needed a while, but my second capsule is taking shape.
2020-09-10 13:56:24 idf nice
2020-09-10 14:01:26 felix And how are you?
2020-09-10 14:03:55 idf i'm fine, just finished my chores, thx for asking
2020-09-10 14:04:19 idf wby
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2020-09-10 14:33:00 login idf: who gave you those chores?
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2020-09-10 14:34:11 ⚡ felix waves!
2020-09-10 14:37:18 mhj Heylo~
2020-09-10 14:40:58 mhj How're ya felix
2020-09-10 14:41:19 felix I'm good! Was just bragging about my other capsule taking shape.
2020-09-10 14:41:22 felix And you?
2020-09-10 14:43:00 mhj I'm good as well! Just got some classwork to do today, but as far as computer stuff goes, I finally setup my Linux system how I want it - except one caveat, I can't seem to get Snapper, which is OpenSUSE's BTRFS filesystem snapshot utility to work.
2020-09-10 14:44:18 mhj What about your capsule? Sounds awesome :D
2020-09-10 14:45:00 felix It's just the one I started over on Flounder.
2020-09-10 14:46:23 mhj Sorry, I'm not distinctly familier with these terms. What is Flounder and what is a capsule in this context? I assume it's a gemini blog on there? Got a link?
2020-09-10 14:46:50 felix A capsule is what people seem to call sites on Gemini.
2020-09-10 14:47:01 felix Much like they're called holes on Gopher.
2020-09-10 14:47:05 mhj Ohhh
2020-09-10 14:47:31 felix Check out felixp7.flounder.online if you like.
2020-09-10 14:47:38 felix It's very small and very personal.
2020-09-10 14:48:00 felix But the service seems to be popular with poets so far.
2020-09-10 14:48:19 mhj Cool :D
2020-09-10 14:48:32 felix Thanks! I like the place, and the concept.
2020-09-10 14:52:14 mhj I'm glad gemini is inspiring us so much~
2020-09-10 14:56:23 felix That may be the best thing about it.
2020-09-10 15:00:04 mhj BRB!
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2020-09-10 15:17:28 ⚡ felix waves!
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2020-09-10 18:47:41 lukee evening all
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2020-09-10 19:01:14 sandra A SNAFU meant I wasn't seeing the list email so I'm catching up
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2020-09-10 19:21:50 sandra Now caught up
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2020-09-10 19:24:53 makeworld Wow the list has been busy the past few days, gonna have to catch up
2020-09-10 19:25:38 lukee it goes from feast to famine
2020-09-10 19:37:17 makeworld Haha
2020-09-10 19:37:22 makeworld Something like that
2020-09-10 19:37:48 lukee or maybe from sanity to insanity and back again
2020-09-10 19:59:45 lewiscowper I only recently joined and it's been a lot to keep up with, but very interesting so far
2020-09-10 20:01:09 lukee hi there lewiscowper. What is your background and how did you get into Gemini?
2020-09-10 20:01:16 lukee and welcome!
2020-09-10 20:04:45 sandra Welcome to Gemini lewiscowper!
2020-09-10 20:05:39 sandra Caveat lector re me because I've only been here for like ten days but I tend to talk like super authoritatively as if I knew it all. But in reality I wasn't here from the start, I only just showed up, just like you♥
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2020-09-10 20:17:54 lukee right brain wants it, left brain says you cant handle it: https://www.inputmag.com/design/exclusive-interview-panos-panay-how-surface-duo-transforms-microsoft-again
2020-09-10 20:22:08 kevinsan ugh, everything microsoft I've used (which to be fair amounts to 3 Windows 10 computers and an xbox one) have generated more rage than a right-wing twitter storm.
2020-09-10 20:22:10 lewiscowper hi lukee and sandra, I was a web dev for 4-5 years or so, then went into ops, and as far as gemini goes I remember reading a post months ago about having something in between gopherholes and HTML, and I really love the concept of pushing content around the net that could be as useful as markdown was to plain text in terms of allowing some presentational content for clients that
2020-09-10 20:22:12 lewiscowper support it, without sacrificing the readability of the plain view. I'll stop splurging now, but I'm definitely lurking and looking into where I might be able to help out with some tooling or something.
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2020-09-10 20:23:29 sandra That's gonna be great, thank you in advance for that, lewiscowper
2020-09-10 20:25:02 lukee kevinsan: I hear you, but I find Windows not that bad once you configure the hell out of it. If you get handed one for work and you don't have an admin account, that must drive folks to a state of perpetual perplexitude
2020-09-10 20:25:11 lewiscowper mostly currently interested in the content syndication discussion, as the discoverability is definitely an issue, and having an "accepted" format that many capsules use would make it easier to share content in a useful way
2020-09-10 20:25:23 lukee but that would be true of any platform I guess
2020-09-10 20:26:19 lukee anyway the duo thing is just android. MS hardware is generally not bad
2020-09-10 20:27:02 lukee so lewiscowper, how are you finding the ultra-sparse text/gemini format?
2020-09-10 20:27:10 kevinsan lukee, it's practically impossible - Microsoft lost me after Windows 7. "Please wait while we improve your experience." - nooooo thanks :)
2020-09-10 20:27:44 lukee I hated Windows 7. I held out as long as I could on XP then jumped to 10, fairly happy with it
2020-09-10 20:28:30 kevinsan curiouser and yet even more curiouser. i think it's your wrong brain that wants it, not your right one!
2020-09-10 20:28:30 lukee the whole WSL thing they have now is quite good.
2020-09-10 20:29:01 lukee anyway I dont expect to persuade any non windows people to like windows, that is a fools errand :)
2020-09-10 20:29:39 lukee the thing that surprises me is lots of devs seem to be abandoning MacOS/Apple these days
2020-09-10 20:29:53 idf i loved 7 and XP, i hate 10
2020-09-10 20:30:30 lewiscowper I really like writing it, although I did have some confusion with how links were talked about in the getting started guide as "you can now put them in text instead of at the end, but didn't really get that that still meant, they need to be on their own lines, they just aren't all stacked at the bottom. But generally I find it very comfortable to write in, coming from writing a fair
2020-09-10 20:30:31 kevinsan I grew up on windows, so it was like watching grandpappy turn into a mobster.
2020-09-10 20:30:32 lewiscowper amount of markdown over the last few years
2020-09-10 20:31:13 lukee its got some obvious Markdown genes in it
2020-09-10 20:31:17 epoch hrm... webfinger over gemini should work.
2020-09-10 20:31:33 idf yea but the best part is that all the parsing is done by just checking the first characters of a line, so easy lol
2020-09-10 20:31:49 idf i mean easier than having to write a parser
2020-09-10 20:32:07 idf like HTML, XML etc
2020-09-10 20:32:38 lewiscowper I'm somewhat tempted by trying to play with seeing whether something like this would work over gemini https://blog.joinmastodon.org/2018/06/how-to-implement-a-basic-activitypub-server/
2020-09-10 20:32:53 lukee It is the beautiful yet diminutive love child of Markdown and Gophermaps
2020-09-10 20:32:54 epoch webfinger is only supposed to be run over a secure socket, and gemini qualifies for that. :P
2020-09-10 20:32:56 epoch brb
2020-09-10 20:33:01 lewiscowper that would be really neat
2020-09-10 20:33:57 kevinsan lewiscowper, remember to submit your URL to GUS (do you have a URL yet?)
2020-09-10 20:33:57 lukee kevinsan: its the right brain that wants the shiny toy, the left brain says I cant handle it
2020-09-10 20:34:33 lewiscowper lukee: yeah, I see that now, but I discovered gopher about a day or two before discovering Gemini, and gemini sounded far more exciting. From that post I'm definitely wondering whether protocol wise there should be some accepted things to have in a capsule's /.well-known directory
2020-09-10 20:34:51 lewiscowper kevinsan: I do have a URL that does not a lot right now, but I'm trying to keep pushing content to it
2020-09-10 20:34:55 kevinsan i know lukee, I was joking on the wrongheadedness of microsoft :)
2020-09-10 20:34:58 lukee nah, just put whatever in it you like
2020-09-10 20:35:20 lukee thats the fun of it
2020-09-10 20:35:31 xj9 lukee you read my mind
2020-09-10 20:35:42 lewiscowper will need to go and figure out how to do GUS submission, I am familiar with GUS though, so that's taken some of the difficulty out of finding it
2020-09-10 20:35:49 kevinsan yup, mine's a disorganised mess, but I wrote a script to generate a sitemap for me, which helps me not forget stuff
2020-09-10 20:36:12 xj9 oh heck i forgot i was writing a sitemap script
2020-09-10 20:36:13 kevinsan gemini://gus.guru/add-seed
2020-09-10 20:37:03 lewiscowper oh wait, that was an issue I had with GUS, I'm using bombadillo as a client and I keep trying to go to some capsules, apparently gus is one of them, and I get a cert validation error that the host doesn't match
2020-09-10 20:37:04 kevinsan xj9, you maybe suffer the same recursive-project-starting-syndrome as me.
2020-09-10 20:37:16 xj9 i definitely have that
2020-09-10 20:37:28 lewiscowper I assume that's something client based, but it feels like a weird one
2020-09-10 20:38:14 xj9 i've been fighting the temptation to port my build system from redo to mk and getting super distracted along the way
2020-09-10 20:39:28 lewiscowper what clients do people use (I'm on Linux, ideally want something terminal based, and really ideally something that might handle gopher + gemini + maybe have a way to open lynx from a capsule/gopherhole)
2020-09-10 20:39:36 lukee lewiscooper: gemini://gus.guru works for me
2020-09-10 20:39:52 xj9 amfora/kristall
2020-09-10 20:40:03 lewiscowper lukee: on bombadillo?
2020-09-10 20:40:06 xj9 av98 sometimes
2020-09-10 20:40:16 lewiscowper maybe I've got to install some extra certificates package or something
2020-09-10 20:40:18 lukee no, I'm using GemiNaut
2020-09-10 20:40:29 lukee which does gopher, but not for linux yet
2020-09-10 20:40:33 lewiscowper oh no, they're all installed
2020-09-10 20:40:38 xj9 i want to write one for inferno/acme
2020-09-10 20:41:33 xj9 although, i've also been tempted to add gemini support to charon
2020-09-10 20:41:45 lukee lewiscowper: gus.guru works in amfora which is a nice terminal client
2020-09-10 20:43:09 lewiscowper building that now :)
2020-09-10 20:44:15 lukee bonus: the author, makeworld often hangs around on this channel
2020-09-10 20:44:32 lewiscowper :) nice
2020-09-10 20:44:53 lewiscowper when you add a gemini URL to GUS, should you add the protocol? I did but I feel like I might have done it wrong
2020-09-10 20:45:12 lukee its fine if you do, probably fine if you dont
2020-09-10 20:46:10 lukee but you have to submit it here first :)
2020-09-10 20:46:56 lewiscowper gemini://tilde.club/~lewiscowper/ :)
2020-09-10 20:46:57 lukee this is the Gemini electric firehose
2020-09-10 20:48:00 lewiscowper nothing too exciting, going to try out some things over the next few weeknights/weekends though, this looks super cool gemini://80h.dev/projects/gemgit/
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2020-09-10 20:50:21 lukee well it looks good to me - https://imgur.com/a/TzbIQPS
2020-09-10 20:50:34 lukee make sure to share your feed with Capcom if you havent already
2020-09-10 20:51:19 lewiscowper that I don't know how to do, I found a git repo for capcom and a python script, and I thought it was a feed reader
2020-09-10 20:51:34 lewiscowper but I don't understand why I'd share my feed with capcom if it was a purely client side feed reader
2020-09-10 20:51:42 lewiscowper if that makes sense(?)
2020-09-10 20:52:16 lukee the main hosted Capcom instance is a public aggregator (you can run your own if you want)
2020-09-10 20:52:36 lukee gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/capcom/
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2020-09-10 20:53:03 lukee you just email solderpunk with your feed url. So you'll need to serve the Atom over gemini
2020-09-10 20:53:36 lukee its one of the main sources of updates/news we all go to
2020-09-10 20:54:45 lewiscowper ahhhh
2020-09-10 20:54:50 lewiscowper that makes a lot more sense then
2020-09-10 20:54:59 lewiscowper I wasn't actually sure if I could do atom over gemini
2020-09-10 20:55:03 lewiscowper but I shall make that happen
2020-09-10 20:56:23 lewiscowper turns out I can and now do
2020-09-10 20:56:33 kevinsan lewiscowper, love the 8bit thing you're building. that's going to be fun!
2020-09-10 20:57:31 lewiscowper kevinsan: most if not all of the parts have now arrived, but as they're technically birthday gifts from my other half, I can't open them and start building for another 5-6 weeks
2020-09-10 20:57:44 lewiscowper so I'm trying not to think about them too much right now :D
2020-09-10 20:58:15 kevinsan that's going to hurt - at least you've got a whole lot of other new stuff to be thinking about.
2020-09-10 21:00:18 lewiscowper well indeed, I'm very much all or nothing in terms of projects. Alongside the 8bit computer, there's a VR headset, raspi clusters, gemini, activitypub, operating system, and text editor.
2020-09-10 21:01:43 kevinsan i want to do something like the 8-bit and make it wall mounted as a sort of interactive art. I find ALUs are a great ice-breaker with dinner party guests
2020-09-10 21:02:12 lewiscowper I've seen a few of that kit done as a wall mount
2020-09-10 21:02:17 ⚡ kevinsan doesn't really do the dinner party thing, i feel compelled to point out.
2020-09-10 21:02:19 lewiscowper so that's definitely a possibility
2020-09-10 21:02:37 lewiscowper (I'm not sure if anyone does dinner parties tbh, especially during covid times)
2020-09-10 21:03:50 lewiscowper but yes, I'm definitely monopolising conversation with entirely not gemini relevant content, so I'll stop side tracking things for now
2020-09-10 21:06:36 lukee we do get a bit side tracked on this channel sometimes, the culture doesnt seem to be authoritarian about it
2020-09-10 21:06:41 lukee which is great
2020-09-10 21:19:14 lukee I'm calling it a night here - catch up with you all some time soon o/
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2020-09-10 21:26:19 omni https://boyter.org/static/books/new3.png
2020-09-10 21:46:30 kevinsan omni, kinda funny though it's only an issue at all because everyone's tracking you. if nothing else, it raises awareness (though largely to people who fgaf)
2020-09-10 21:47:07 kevinsan s/fgaf/dgaf/ if course
2020-09-10 21:47:32 kevinsan s/if/of/ jeez
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2020-09-10 23:46:56 easeout wow the mailing list has been hopping
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2020-09-11 01:26:22 @tomasino hop hop
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2020-09-11 11:14:51 ℹ Mode #gemini [+o julienxx] by hub.tilde.chat
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2020-09-11 16:28:52 ⚡ felix waves!
2020-09-11 16:29:11 companion_cube 👋
2020-09-11 16:30:21 mhj Yo~
2020-09-11 16:30:49 @tomasino hija
2020-09-11 16:32:27 mhj Figured out what to do in regards to my NixOS install. I have almost everything working except Virtualbox, but as far as a backup solution, I am thinking of sometimes snapshotting my home and root dirs(I use btrfs) and then compressing the snapshot dirs and sending them over nfs to a raspberry pi. Hopefully I can make it work out somehow!
2020-09-11 16:33:01 @tomasino yeah, could work
2020-09-11 16:33:08 @tomasino or just a differential rsync
2020-09-11 16:33:20 mhj True
2020-09-11 16:35:25 mhj What are y'alls backup solutions?
2020-09-11 16:35:37 @tomasino i have a few things
2020-09-11 16:35:54 @tomasino i have some stuff in a spideroak one backup
2020-09-11 16:36:00 @tomasino some nonsense bs i don't care about in dropbox
2020-09-11 16:36:16 @tomasino and i use syncthing to maintain some things between my machines and my personal vps
2020-09-11 16:36:35 @tomasino and then i have pcloud with a 2TB lifetime plan
2020-09-11 16:36:44 @tomasino i shove big media stuff into there that needs backup
2020-09-11 16:37:11 @tomasino i ran tarsnap for a while, but i realized i have almost everything covered in these other services already and they're all free now (pcloud lifetime being already paid)
2020-09-11 16:37:37 @tomasino my software and dotfiles are in git
2020-09-11 16:37:44 @tomasino my git repos are mirrored on multiple remotes
2020-09-11 16:37:47 mhj Oh nice, looks like you run the gamut in regards to backups
2020-09-11 16:37:57 @tomasino yep yep
2020-09-11 16:38:13 @tomasino i used backblaze once upon a time too
2020-09-11 16:38:19 @tomasino and something else similar to that
2020-09-11 16:38:23 @tomasino but that was on a windows system
2020-09-11 16:38:33 @tomasino harder to configure smart backup stuff there
2020-09-11 16:39:37 mhj Totally agreed. I need to think of how to backup my gemini stuff once I start expanding it. I'm thinking of just doing ssh and rsync or just tar'ing everything lol
2020-09-11 16:43:46 @tomasino my gemini stuff is just in a git repo on tildegit
2020-09-11 16:44:56 mhj You mean your gemini software or even your blog entries?
2020-09-11 16:46:04 @tomasino just the entries
2020-09-11 16:46:09 @tomasino i haven't written any software for gemini
2020-09-11 16:46:49 @tomasino https://tildegit.org/tomasino/gemspace
2020-09-11 16:48:38 xj9 i have a raidz6 nas which used to backup to b2, but i haven't done an offsite backup in a while.
2020-09-11 16:49:33 xj9 zfs does snapshots periodically and i push stuff off of my other systems over rsync
2020-09-11 16:49:40 xj9 really terrible backup solutions honestly
2020-09-11 16:51:14 kevinsan borg backup is amazing. it's more commands to learn, but I think worth it.
2020-09-11 16:51:28 xj9 i have dabbled in borg
2020-09-11 16:51:40 companion_cube borg is cool, esp. with borgmatic
2020-09-11 16:51:51 kevinsan i took a couple of attempts to grok it
2020-09-11 16:52:09 xj9 i should give it another go, backups matter
2020-09-11 16:52:44 kevinsan once you have it down, jot your borg commands in geminispace so you can refer back to them.
2020-09-11 16:52:44 xj9 i just wanna venti honestly, but i'm still working on my 9chops
2020-09-11 16:53:04 xj9 good idea
2020-09-11 16:53:10 companion_cube I'd venti but I'm latte
2020-09-11 16:53:14 kevinsan that's the problem with backup stuff - if it's good, you tinker with it so rarely that memories fade
2020-09-11 16:55:24 @tomasino mmm, kaffi
2020-09-11 16:55:25 @tomasino it's time
2020-09-11 17:18:58 mhj Hmm, a gemini client and server for plan9 and 9grid. GeminiFS?
2020-09-11 17:19:12 mhj Or 9Gem
2020-09-11 17:20:28 felix There isn't any yet?
2020-09-11 17:21:16 @tomasino i think TLS was the barrier
2020-09-11 17:23:08 xj9 i have an inferno fork/distro that i've been hacking on very slowly. thinking about making libsec into a wrapper around libressl..
2020-09-11 17:24:12 xj9 i was looking for an embedded-style tls library, but i couldn't find anything that was permissive licensed or public domain
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2020-09-11 17:25:08 xj9 i thought i saw a geminifs project in go somewhere?
2020-09-11 17:32:35 mhj Yeah I thought I heard about a GeminiFS too, but I think that only on the mailing list lol
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2020-09-12 06:52:47 bouncepaw wow, so many names i recognize in the member list. Greetings
2020-09-12 07:11:42 login greetings bouncepaw
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2020-09-12 09:50:14 @tomasino Hi hi
2020-09-12 10:39:19 CoopDot I'm thinking of how to make sure people kan read my documents if I'm using unusual characters. Suggesting people to install a font I provide might not be good enough
2020-09-12 10:39:42 bouncepaw it depends on what you call unusual characters
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2020-09-12 10:43:42 bouncepaw If you're willing to use something like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ConScript_Unicode_Registry then suggesting installing a font seems to be the only option. On the web you can force installing it though. Magic of the www as is.
2020-09-12 10:44:11 CoopDot Things in the Basic Multilingual Plane not commonly used
2020-09-12 10:45:59 bouncepaw Yeah, there are some things in that plane that are not present in most fonts. What about using images?
2020-09-12 10:50:47 bouncepaw What is more popular nowadays? Gemini or gopher?
2020-09-12 10:56:55 kevinsan https://gopher.floodgap.com/gopher/gw?=gopher.floodgap.com+70+302f76322f7673746174
2020-09-12 10:57:24 kevinsan 5792943 unique and verified selectors, 347 unique servers
2020-09-12 10:58:44 kevinsan gemini://gus.guru/statistics GUS: 36001 pages, 218 domains
2020-09-12 10:58:59 @tomasino remarkable
2020-09-12 11:00:21 kevinsan In 2012, Veronica reported 2.5 million selectors, over 160 servers
2020-09-12 11:00:52 kevinsan so gopher has grown quite a lot in 8 years. what's interesting is there's more content per gopher server, by a long way
2020-09-12 11:01:29 bouncepaw amount of servers means nothing. Gopher has been around for a really long time, it sure has more servers. Amount of //active// servers is what matters
2020-09-12 11:01:44 bouncepaw is there a way to count active servers?
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2020-09-12 11:02:40 lukee hi folks o/
2020-09-12 11:02:44 bouncepaw oh wait, amount of active servers doesn't mean much too because many (ph/gem)loggers post their content on the same servers
2020-09-12 11:02:48 bouncepaw hi lukee
2020-09-12 11:03:01 lukee hi bouncepaw
2020-09-12 11:03:17 kevinsan growth of a few million docs and a couple hundred servers is not so remarkable - what is is that it's on the up, not down
2020-09-12 11:03:23 kevinsan hi lukee and all
2020-09-12 11:03:27 lukee hiya
2020-09-12 11:04:37 kevinsan i'm heartened by growth in all this stuff - i don't care at all what 'wins' out. i think if there's ever a time to ditch ego and competitive thinking, it's right now!
2020-09-12 11:04:39 lukee there's a lot of tumbleweed in gopherspace
2020-09-12 11:05:05 kevinsan yes lukee that's what i noticed.
2020-09-12 11:05:27 bouncepaw there's some tumbleweed in geminisphere too :-)
2020-09-12 11:05:30 kevinsan i also notice a lot of early web syndrome in gemini space where everyone gets writer;s block
2020-09-12 11:05:40 @tomasino content content content!
2020-09-12 11:05:48 lukee like a ghost town, but there is one shop open with a sign on the door saying "back soon"
2020-09-12 11:05:58 kevinsan not everyone - sometimes you see a few words, then a few paragraphs, then the latest post is an essay :)
2020-09-12 11:06:16 bouncepaw writer's block is the best thing that may happen to a site imho
2020-09-12 11:06:30 lukee it is funny how it seems to go in waves - quite for a while then all of a sudden the slumbering beast is awoken
2020-09-12 11:06:55 kevinsan lukee, it seems like that, but it's just down to ratios - if you could identify just the good pages, then you'd probably view it differently
2020-09-12 11:07:04 bouncepaw btw what is the difference between essay, article and post? I use them interchangeably but I'm not sure
2020-09-12 11:07:35 lukee they overlap for sure. I think of a post as something generic, but could be short
2020-09-12 11:07:37 kevinsan bouncepaw, nothing. it's all just words
2020-09-12 11:07:58 lukee an essay or article is perhaps longer
2020-09-12 11:08:17 @tomasino from the search engine: "Article is a piece of writing that is included with others in a newspaper, magazine or other publication. Essay is a short piece of writing on a particular subject. Article is written to inform the readers about some concept. Essay is generally written as a response to a question or proposition."
2020-09-12 11:08:21 bouncepaw yeah I feel the same, essay and article must be longer. But how longer?
2020-09-12 11:08:32 lukee kevinsan: yes finding the "good" stuff is always a challenge in any art form
2020-09-12 11:08:44 bouncepaw What is short nowadays?
2020-09-12 11:08:46 lukee as long as you want.
2020-09-12 11:09:13 lukee I think from the days of literary essays, they would come in at a few pages
2020-09-12 11:09:31 @tomasino some essays are short-story size
2020-09-12 11:09:38 kevinsan i started a project that i was going to apply some heuristics on pages to figure out their level of readable content
2020-09-12 11:09:40 lukee but no one is keeping a word count
2020-09-12 11:09:56 kevinsan i want to use spacy to do some analysis and provide more meaningful search
2020-09-12 11:10:13 @tomasino if you hit up the essay's section in your book store or library, they are either bundled into sets at novel size or very long stand-alone ones
2020-09-12 11:10:24 lukee kevinsan: are you looking at web pages, or plain text?
2020-09-12 11:10:40 @tomasino in school essays are usually a few pages
2020-09-12 11:10:48 @tomasino teachers don't have time for all that reading
2020-09-12 11:10:49 kevinsan i want to do it in geminispace, but the thinking came from the web search engine I did
2020-09-12 11:11:24 lukee certainly there is a general problem with web pages that with many you need to strip out the navigational cruft
2020-09-12 11:11:32 @tomasino i've got some stuff on my gemini space that's long for gemini. Not several hundred pages long, but several pages
2020-09-12 11:11:50 lukee tomasino - why is that too long for gemini?
2020-09-12 11:12:15 @tomasino not too long, just long
2020-09-12 11:12:16 lukee Especially given you can use headings to provide structure (if it is that kind of thing)
2020-09-12 11:12:18 @tomasino longer than average
2020-09-12 11:12:27 lukee I say bring it on
2020-09-12 11:12:47 @tomasino i'm probably due for another superman essay soon
2020-09-12 11:13:19 bouncepaw There are books served at Tanelorn: gemini://tanelorn.city/library/index.gemini
2020-09-12 11:13:30 bouncepaw a whole library! Isn't it epic?
2020-09-12 11:13:40 bouncepaw I doubt anyone reads it though
2020-09-12 11:14:02 @tomasino starbreaker has long stuff too
2020-09-12 11:14:07 lukee the lovely thing with Gemini is the formatting is so light, you can just always know it will print out fine
2020-09-12 11:14:14 @tomasino stories!
2020-09-12 11:14:26 lukee if you want to curly up in front of the fire with a long form piece of writing
2020-09-12 11:14:29 @tomasino an of course there's cosmic voyage now on gemini
2020-09-12 11:14:33 kevinsan bouncepaw, that's interesting, thanks
2020-09-12 11:14:34 lukee curly -> curl
2020-09-12 11:14:43 @tomasino i started a new outpost story on there yesterday. SNCF68B
2020-09-12 11:14:51 kevinsan lukee, clients now need page-relative bookmarks :)
2020-09-12 11:14:55 @tomasino fun fact: that was my Prodigy ID as a kid
2020-09-12 11:15:10 lukee someone was mentioning (Cadey?) about sending gemini to an ebook reader
2020-09-12 11:15:37 @tomasino yeah
2020-09-12 11:15:52 kevinsan that would be useful when there's a lot more gemini-sourced content (a la tomasino, for example)
2020-09-12 11:16:05 @tomasino if you do your own atom feed aggregator you can run through it, gem-curl down everything and pandoc it into an ebook file
2020-09-12 11:16:12 kevinsan but otherwise, I'd just get the original ebook that was converted to gemtext
2020-09-12 11:16:22 lukee kevinsan: I would be on for it. We just need a convention about them
2020-09-12 11:16:46 lukee And frankly I'm not sure I have the energy to go to the ML with another Gemini proposal for a while
2020-09-12 11:16:53 Cadey h
2020-09-12 11:16:56 lukee so maybe later
2020-09-12 11:17:03 @tomasino just avoid talking about text formatting and the ML is very friendly
2020-09-12 11:17:08 @tomasino heya Cadey
2020-09-12 11:17:11 @tomasino how's stuffs?
2020-09-12 11:17:25 kevinsan lukee, just remembering the last position in a page would be enough for a book (i only ever need one bookmark per book)
2020-09-12 11:17:33 Cadey been finally able to type decently
2020-09-12 11:18:02 lukee kevinsan: Oh I see, not trying to solve the "shareable with other people" bookmarks problem then
2020-09-12 11:18:17 @tomasino oh very nice!
2020-09-12 11:18:22 @tomasino congratulations
2020-09-12 11:18:25 kevinsan nope, selfish to a fault :) just local bookmarks
2020-09-12 11:18:45 lukee but it would be good to have a convention for that
2020-09-12 11:18:46 Cadey done some interviews for the company i work for
2020-09-12 11:18:53 lukee oh hang on, conventions are apparently evil
2020-09-12 11:18:58 Cadey nobody warned me it can be soul crushing lol
2020-09-12 11:19:05 kevinsan lukee, don't be childish
2020-09-12 11:19:14 lukee :)
2020-09-12 11:19:29 lukee I'm chuckling here...
2020-09-12 11:19:46 kevinsan Cadey, are you learning to touch type, or recovering from an injury?
2020-09-12 11:20:01 Cadey learning to touch type colemak
2020-09-12 11:20:15 kevinsan is colemak a key layout?
2020-09-12 11:20:18 Cadey yeah
2020-09-12 11:20:29 Cadey https://colemak.com/Learn
2020-09-12 11:20:34 kevinsan you're hardcore. i'm impressed
2020-09-12 11:20:53 bouncepaw hardcore is creating your own layout
2020-09-12 11:21:00 Cadey i thought i was cadey
2020-09-12 11:21:01 kevinsan but not as impressed as I am with lukee, who makes lutes! hard to top that one
2020-09-12 11:21:36 @tomasino i was pretty excited to be a part of the interview process until I actually was a part of the interview process
2020-09-12 11:21:39 Cadey also considering learning steno
2020-09-12 11:22:12 Cadey tomasino: after a really bad interview a candidate tried to stroke my ego
2020-09-12 11:22:25 Cadey that pushed me from no to very no
2020-09-12 11:22:30 @tomasino nice! i went down that rabbit hole a couple years ago, but backed off in favor of focusing on electronics hobby stuff
2020-09-12 11:22:37 bouncepaw i do not recommend learning steno. The process is long, expensive and not really worth it unless you want to be a stenographer. Consider a proper ergokeeb if you don't have it already
2020-09-12 11:22:43 bouncepaw https://kle.klava.org/#/gists/5722ae3ff22ae2ea6685f39b8f2a472f my keeb layout
2020-09-12 11:23:44 @tomasino there's some nice steno-training games out there if you do decide to try it out. It's easier with a properly shaped keyboard
2020-09-12 11:24:05 @tomasino and lots of good stuff at the open steno project
2020-09-12 11:24:19 @tomasino but hooray for Colemak improvements
2020-09-12 11:24:22 @tomasino that's a great feeling
2020-09-12 11:24:29 Cadey i may end up not doing it, but it looks like it's nice for writing novels
2020-09-12 11:25:13 @tomasino saw a talk once on a guy that used steno + vim
2020-09-12 11:25:23 @tomasino it was highly confusing but he was unbelievably fast
2020-09-12 11:26:11 bouncepaw btw there're no good open steno projects for many languages. For Russian, for example, there is none :-(
2020-09-12 11:26:30 @tomasino https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuVUGKBOp9Q
2020-09-12 11:26:34 bouncepaw the problem with steno is that it's inseparable from language
2020-09-12 11:27:42 lukee got to go for now - see you later o/
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2020-09-12 11:27:54 Cadey bouncepaw: it's phonetic yeah
2020-09-12 11:28:19 @tomasino ciao!
2020-09-12 11:30:00 bouncepaw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LchMhXH5n4I btw check out me typing some text. I myself don't like how my fingers move and I don't think I'm fast but many people are amazed
2020-09-12 11:31:50 @tomasino since i use dvorak my coworkers joke that i just put my hands ot the keyboard and stuff comes out without me moving my hands
2020-09-12 11:32:11 Cadey lol
2020-09-12 11:32:47 @tomasino but i'm not really any faster than i was with qwerty
2020-09-12 11:33:16 @tomasino my fastest period was when i was working doing dictation as a temp job, but that was just from practice practice practice
2020-09-12 11:33:38 bouncepaw that's expected. Letter layouts have very little to do with speed. But they do impact comfort
2020-09-12 11:33:55 @tomasino steno would have been a good thing to know during the dictation days, but it was an awful job
2020-09-12 11:34:06 @tomasino had to concentrate the entire time on what was being said. can't daydream
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2020-09-12 12:34:08 felix Hello!
2020-09-12 12:37:47 idf hi
2020-09-12 12:39:36 felix What's new?
2020-09-12 12:41:52 idf nothing much, i'm trying to setup an IRC bouncer
2020-09-12 12:42:00 idf so i might leave and rejoin soon
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2020-09-12 12:50:43 idf_ hello
2020-09-12 12:50:44 idf_ cool it works :D
2020-09-12 12:54:00 felix Woo!
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2020-09-12 13:01:02 felix Ha! SDF set up a Gemini server.
2020-09-12 13:02:34 idf_ great news!
2020-09-12 13:02:40 idf_ i remember using SDF a while ago, cool experience
2020-09-12 13:02:44 idf_ i was thinking of joining a tilde
2020-09-12 13:03:30 felix I joined my first one less than a month ago.
2020-09-12 13:03:53 idf_ how is it
2020-09-12 13:04:05 idf_ like what do you do on a tilde
2020-09-12 13:04:51 felix Been building up my first Gemini capsule.
2020-09-12 13:05:04 idf_ nice
2020-09-12 13:05:43 felix And going back to basics with web design.
2020-09-12 13:06:08 felix Re-learned tmux. Learned Micro properly.
2020-09-12 13:06:23 felix Got inspired to finish up my line editor.
2020-09-12 13:06:45 idf_ very nice, good luck with your line editor!
2020-09-12 13:06:50 felix Thanks!
2020-09-12 13:08:56 felix Only got the docs to finish up now.
2020-09-12 13:09:58 idf_ i was thinking of doing a microemacs as a project
2020-09-12 13:10:05 idf_ i would probably use it over ssh
2020-09-12 13:11:36 felix Sounds good!
2020-09-12 13:12:05 idf_ thanks
2020-09-12 14:07:47 Cadey gemini://cetacean.club/journal/09-12-2020-origami-king.gmi
2020-09-12 14:10:32 kevinsan Cadey, is that server firewalled or down? i'm getting nothing
2020-09-12 14:11:07 felix Interesting game design critique.
2020-09-12 14:11:59 Cadey i restarted it, does it work now kevinsan?
2020-09-12 14:12:15 felix Wait, dammit. I pasted the link in my *web browser* instead.
2020-09-12 14:12:20 felix Wasn't paying attention.
2020-09-12 14:12:37 Cadey xD
2020-09-12 14:12:50 felix Kristall still times out.
2020-09-12 14:13:31 Cadey this is odd because the HTTP view into that site works
2020-09-12 14:13:56 felix Yes, exactly.
2020-09-12 14:14:09 felix Amfora times out too.
2020-09-12 14:14:15 flexibeast As does elpher.
2020-09-12 14:14:44 kevinsan sometime gotta face the facts cadey, your site's down ;)
2020-09-12 14:15:09 Cadey helpfully there's no logs to help me
2020-09-12 14:15:23 kevinsan strace it?
2020-09-12 14:16:19 felix Same from ctrl-c.club, so if it's a routing issue it's not near my end.
2020-09-12 14:16:48 Cadey i don't understand this lol
2020-09-12 14:17:26 felix Wait, it couldn't be since I loaded the website.
2020-09-12 14:17:39 kevinsan the server pings ok, port 443's ok, so it's just port 1965
2020-09-12 14:17:40 felix And I'm 4 hops away from cetacean.club
2020-09-12 14:18:19 Cadey it seems to be the gemini server itself somehow
2020-09-12 14:18:34 felix Anyway, never played any of those games, but I get it.
2020-09-12 14:38:05 kvothe /away Not here!
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2020-09-12 15:41:50 omni kevinsan: the tracking issues are part of web unusability
2020-09-12 16:20:43 kevinsan omni, that's the point I wanted to make. the annoying cookie notices have the one silver lining that people who are oblivious to being tracked get the opportunity to ask what it's about.
2020-09-12 16:21:48 kevinsan such a small benefit, since explaining why it's bad is a steep uphill (on a unicycle with oval wheels)
2020-09-12 16:37:08 mhj I prefer to track rather than being tracked @_@
2020-09-12 16:37:43 mhj By track I mean something like RSS feeds :D
2020-09-12 16:40:52 felix And nowadays we have to teach people again what newsfeeds are.
2020-09-12 16:41:24 felix It was a shock to learn that someone I know had no idea what RSS means.
2020-09-12 16:42:08 felix Soon after that I discovered aboutfeeds.com
2020-09-12 16:44:24 mhj Huh, never heard of that site
2020-09-12 16:47:08 felix Word goes around. ;)
2020-09-12 16:49:40 mhj Speaking of RSS feeds, any recommendations for good tech sites. I need to install Newsboat on here and I forgot most of the RSS feeds I use, so I'm essentially starting over lol
2020-09-12 16:50:31 felix Lobste.rs and osnews.com for starters.
2020-09-12 16:51:28 mhj Ah right, those are pretty awesome
2020-09-12 16:52:58 felix Also dragonflydigest.com has excellent link roundups every Saturday and Sunday.
2020-09-12 16:53:17 felix At 13:00 UTC.
2020-09-12 16:54:31 mhj I forgot all about that place, thanks for reminding me :D
2020-09-12 16:55:30 kevinsan just browsed osnews.com - blood boil moment as I read about Android 11 release, claiming great privacy enhancements(!)
2020-09-12 16:56:28 kevinsan aaargh! is there no escape from the sh**ty web?
2020-09-12 16:57:37 felix Wish more sites were mirrored outside of it.
2020-09-12 16:58:00 felix I recently stumbled across MetaFilter in Veronica 2 search results.
2020-09-12 16:58:09 felix And promptly started following it.
2020-09-12 16:58:10 kevinsan ha, that would just make the same crap available over more protocols :)
2020-09-12 16:58:42 felix Well, it's a start, isn't it.
2020-09-12 16:59:08 felix Been mirroring some of my own web content in Geminispace, too.
2020-09-12 17:00:00 felix But not just anything, and not just like that.
2020-09-12 17:00:17 kevinsan felix, i've been reading some of your stuff - your humour made me laugh (esp. german vs romanian trains)
2020-09-12 17:00:28 felix Thanks!
2020-09-12 17:00:45 felix That was prompted by a trip in 2008.
2020-09-12 17:02:34 kevinsan the poor punctuality of trains being a mitigating factor for all the other failings was particularly funny
2020-09-12 17:04:48 felix :D
2020-09-12 17:05:15 felix Well, missing the train would have been a really bad way to start the journey.
2020-09-12 17:05:35 kevinsan though i don't judge a country by such things, they're often a reflection on poor distribution of wealth and historical exploitation.
2020-09-12 17:06:37 felix And Germans are happy to complain about their own railways.
2020-09-12 17:09:18 kevinsan people generally have 'complaint tokens' that they're compelled to spend on a regular basis - or else they explode.
2020-09-12 17:11:17 felix Heh.
2020-09-12 17:53:31 idf_ cool now i have an emacs function to connect to the bouncer directly
2020-09-12 17:53:42 felix :D
2020-09-12 17:57:34 mhj Uploaded my NixOS configuration file to my Gemini blog :D
2020-09-12 17:57:44 idf_ nice!
2020-09-12 17:58:00 idf_ i think i still have a bunch of nixos configuration files on my gitlab
2020-09-12 17:58:00 felix Good work!
2020-09-12 17:58:15 mhj Ooh cool
2020-09-12 17:58:27 idf_ i was thinking of installing nixos on my school laptop
2020-09-12 17:58:46 idf_ since we might take our laptops to school because of the situation
2020-09-12 17:59:43 mhj But recently figured out how to get Steam and Virtualbox working on NixOS. I was declaring too many things for VirtualBox and it was causing collisions, but after just a simple declaration of like "enable_virtualbox_host = true;" and a graphics setting for Steam, everything runs like normal :D
2020-09-12 18:00:08 mhj Ooh I see, be safe idf_
2020-09-12 18:01:06 mhj I "needed" virtualbox for DOSBOX, since I like to browse BBSes through telnet lol
2020-09-12 18:01:25 mhj Er, virtualbox for FreeDOS
2020-09-12 18:01:33 mhj Since DOS ANSI codes and such
2020-09-12 18:02:20 mhj I use dosbox for stuff like MechWarrior 2 and SkyRoads lol
2020-09-12 18:06:43 felix Last DOS game I played extensively was Master of Orion.
2020-09-12 18:07:31 mhj I've heard good things about that
2020-09-12 18:07:59 felix It's a classic for a reason.
2020-09-12 18:09:51 felix MechWarrior 2 was also praised in its day.
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2020-09-12 18:14:56 felix Anyway, see you.
2020-09-12 18:15:48 idf_ see ya
2020-09-12 18:16:55 idf_ i really hope they will let us use something other than codeblocks that would be epic
2020-09-12 18:17:35 idf_ normally we would use codeblocks with an ancient version of mingw
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2020-09-12 20:40:08 kensanata I'm brainstorming a kind of click-game that'd be a bit more interesting than Astrobotany. gemini://alexschroeder.ch/page/2020-09-12_Play_by_click
2020-09-12 20:45:58 idf sounds interesting
2020-09-12 20:51:36 easeout mechwarrior 2 was my absolute jam
2020-09-12 21:20:42 kline kensanata: sounds like fun
2020-09-12 21:21:19 kline kensanata: a search for labyrinth ii on gus shows a zork-like navigation game, but as far as i can tell it has no mechanics, its just a bunch of rooms to walk between
2020-09-12 21:24:22 kline i think its more an exploration of (s?)cgi caps and gemini
2020-09-12 21:25:04 idf fair
2020-09-12 21:25:13 idf i really need to do something cool with cgi
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2020-09-12 21:53:28 kevinsan kensanata, i don't like things dying in these kinds of games - too final, and it adds 'pressure to be there'. i like a mechanic that can survive without me for a while.
2020-09-12 21:54:22 kevinsan maybe make maslow's hierarchy of needs a model for progression
2020-09-12 21:56:35 kevinsan the co-operative element is inviting. i wonder if a sort of vote for next steps could be used to increase or decrease chance of failure in a round
2020-09-12 21:58:57 kevinsan and also that clues to the future might be given e.g. "spies report an empire forming in a distant kingdom", so players might vote to build defenses.
2020-09-12 21:59:41 kevinsan you could use your narrative skills to tell a story, so as the game progresses a textual description of events would form
2020-09-12 21:59:53 kensanata kevinsan: I like the idea of rumours giving advance warnings!
2020-09-12 22:00:46 kensanata Yeah, that's where the idea of the wiki page comes in. The computer adds new info at the bottom, but you as the player can always edit the wiki page, making it more interesting to read, telling a longer story.
2020-09-12 22:02:39 kensanata I also don't want there to be a pressure to be there. My idea was for the player's village to just continue on its current path on its own. But if there are marauders, the absentee player can't defend the village just like the active player; but the active player can rebuild where as the absentee player's people remain in their reduced state. I think that's sort of fair?
2020-09-12 22:04:01 kevinsan yes, as long as there's a lower-bound on damage sustained.
2020-09-12 22:04:07 kensanata Yeah.
2020-09-12 22:04:24 kensanata Time for bed... leave a comment on the page if there's anything else you'd like me to read later!
2020-09-12 22:04:34 kensanata Or use mail. :D
2020-09-12 22:05:09 kevinsan ok, g'night
2020-09-12 22:11:52 makeworld Any kind soul want to summarize the "A proposed scheme for parsing preformatted alt text" thread for me?
2020-09-12 22:11:55 makeworld It's a lot to read through
2020-09-12 22:19:28 @tomasino sure
2020-09-12 22:19:40 kevinsan some people want to add descriptive text after ```
2020-09-12 22:20:24 @tomasino ^ that is a major use case notably for accessibility
2020-09-12 22:20:33 kevinsan among them, some want it to be machine readable, some want it to remain useful to humans!
2020-09-12 22:21:06 @tomasino machine readability mostly for syntax highlighting purposes with programming stuff
2020-09-12 22:21:35 kevinsan also for table formatting information
2020-09-12 22:22:06 @tomasino the conflict is that what is good for accessible text for screen readers doesn't easily align with machine parsable
2020-09-12 22:22:25 kevinsan a whole lot of discussion, so much so that nobody had time to actually write any preformatted blocks themselves :D
2020-09-12 22:22:30 @tomasino the thread has gone through a number of possible workarounds, changes, extensions, alternatives
2020-09-12 22:22:48 @tomasino well, i have a lot of preformatted blocks in gemini space already and using alt text
2020-09-12 22:23:03 @tomasino it's the preformatted blocks with machine parsable examples that were lacking until the last couple emails
2020-09-12 22:23:36 @tomasino the discussion brought up a number of ideas that don't seem to solve anything so far
2020-09-12 22:24:46 kevinsan i think there was some consensus that the text had to remain meaningful to people, but i admit i kind of lost track
2020-09-12 22:25:20 @tomasino of the two desires for that space i think we're at common agreement or near-consensus that the accessibilty needs outweight the other desires
2020-09-12 22:25:27 @tomasino if there's a way to do both that would be preferred, though
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2020-09-12 23:07:16 makeworld Thanks!
2020-09-12 23:07:56 @tomasino i was chatting with the Rhapsode dev on fedi earlier this week and mentioned the ML discussion
2020-09-12 23:08:00 @tomasino he said he was going to sign up
2020-09-12 23:08:02 @tomasino i hope he chimes in
2020-09-12 23:08:41 makeworld Yeah that'd be great!
2020-09-12 23:14:55 kevinsan tomasino, is Rhapsode the exploratory search software?
2020-09-12 23:15:36 @tomasino it's the auditory browser
2020-09-12 23:15:47 @tomasino it's on the client list on circumlunar
2020-09-12 23:15:53 @tomasino it was one of the very first clients, in fact
2020-09-12 23:17:34 @tomasino @alcinnz@floss.social
2020-09-12 23:17:35 kevinsan i must try it, it might be insightful to experience documents aurally
2020-09-12 23:18:28 @tomasino indeedy
2020-09-12 23:19:19 kevinsan and co-incidentally, the exploratory search software Rhapsode is a mine of useful ideas for my quest to experiment with discovery techniques
2020-09-12 23:40:24 makeworld Is there anything on the ML recently that I should be aware of as a client dev?
2020-09-12 23:40:38 makeworld Or as a content author, to a lesser extent I guess
2020-09-12 23:43:29 kevinsan as a content author, there was discussion on using agreed conventional gemtext as a feed format for aggregators, as opposed to atom/rss
2020-09-12 23:44:15 kevinsan perhaps more accurately, in addition to atom/rss.
2020-09-12 23:44:48 @tomasino um, nothing that requires any change in what you're doing at this point
2020-09-12 23:46:52 makeworld Ok, cool thanks
2020-09-12 23:47:08 makeworld I'm kinda against the gemtext feed thing, feels like a new format for no reason
2020-09-12 23:47:55 @tomasino i also agree
2020-09-12 23:48:11 @tomasino read a really great blog post about a dude moving from atom back to RSS yesterday
2020-09-12 23:48:27 @tomasino https://rusingh.com/articles/2020/09/10/atom-rss-move-comments/
2020-09-12 23:49:32 makeworld I don't really understand the concerns, but my brain is a little friend rn
2020-09-12 23:49:36 makeworld *fried
2020-09-12 23:49:40 makeworld I've proving my point lol
2020-09-12 23:51:11 @tomasino hehe
2020-09-12 23:51:24 @tomasino looks like RSS has some blog-specific features that don't exist in ATOM
2020-09-12 23:51:35 makeworld I will have to re-read the InVis idea being proposed but I'm very intrigued, I like the goal
2020-09-12 23:51:45 makeworld gemini://idf.looting.uk/capslog/invis.gemini if you haven't heard
2020-09-12 23:51:50 makeworld Ah ok
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2020-09-13 01:43:40 flexibeast Well that's sad: Emacs' `thing-at-point` doesn't recognise a Gemini URL as being a URL. :-(
2020-09-13 01:46:11 flexibeast It uses the IANA URI scheme list which, of course, doesn't include `gemini`.
2020-09-13 01:49:37 easeout think they'd take a patch?
2020-09-13 01:51:20 flexibeast Don't know what the policy is here. At least the change would be <15 lines, so copyright assignment would not be required of someone who has not otherwise contributed to the code base.
2020-09-13 06:36:55 epoch at least they used the iana list instead of just "yeah. http and https. that's enough."
2020-09-13 06:38:01 epoch might be able to find the code in thing-at-point and replace it with something super-generic
2020-09-13 06:38:34 epoch like "anything that matches a URI based on character whitelist"
2020-09-13 06:38:43 wgreenhouse flexibeast: gemini://apintandaparma.club/~ajc/log/2020-08-14.gmi and https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/Integrate_Gopher_and_Gemini_into_Eww_using_Elpher possibly of interest
2020-09-13 06:38:55 kvothe has quit (Ping timeout: 120 seconds)
2020-09-13 06:39:04 wgreenhouse (those don't fix thing-at-point but rather browse-url and eww)
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2020-09-13 06:40:08 epoch [a-zA-Z][a-zA-Z0-9-+]*:[a fairly large list of characters allowed in the username, password, domain, port, path, query string, and fragment id]
2020-09-13 06:40:39 epoch (or, and . is allowed in the scheme)
2020-09-13 06:42:07 flexibeast wgreenhouse: Thanks! i'd seen the first, but not the second. In the end i've written four lines of ELisp that does what i need. :-)
2020-09-13 06:42:38 wgreenhouse also this is interesting. (find-function 'thing-at-point-url-at-point) does not obviously link against the IANA scheme or any other. it seems to take something like epoch's suggested approach
2020-09-13 06:42:48 wgreenhouse (at least here in 26.3--I'm not on 27 yet)
2020-09-13 06:43:03 wgreenhouse scheme is just whatever's before the :
2020-09-13 06:43:58 flexibeast Well, i've just done `(add-to-list 'thing-at-point-uri-schemes "gemini://")`.
2020-09-13 06:45:01 flexibeast And that's enough for `(elpher-go (thing-at-point-url-at-point))` to then work.
2020-09-13 06:47:14 wgreenhouse neat
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2020-09-13 07:37:14 epoch I'm using the mather plugin in urxvt and have: \\b([a-z][A-Za-z0-9+.-]*:\\/{0,2}[A-Za-z0-9:/?#\\[\\]@!{body}amp;'\''\\(\\)*+,;=%~_.-]+) to match URIs
2020-09-13 07:37:55 epoch matcher*
2020-09-13 07:45:24 epoch I'd rather a few extra things that aren't URIs get matched than one thing that is a URI not being matched
2020-09-13 07:45:39 epoch I can always just not click on the things that aren't
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2020-09-13 08:37:36 login hi awalvie
2020-09-13 08:38:57 awalvie allo!
2020-09-13 08:39:02 awalvie how's it going?
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2020-09-13 12:38:45 kevinsan i'm actually disheartened that I missed 1600000000 by 485 seconds.
2020-09-13 12:38:53 djph aw
2020-09-13 12:39:52 kevinsan your empathy sustains me, djph
2020-09-13 12:40:09 djph empa..what? I'm outta coffee
2020-09-13 12:40:15 kevinsan :)
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2020-09-13 13:40:37 ⚡ felix waves.
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2020-09-13 15:15:57 admicos aw man
2020-09-13 15:16:05 admicos none of the gemini http proxies work on the ps3 browser
2020-09-13 15:16:47 @tomasino Haha
2020-09-13 15:17:22 @tomasino Ps3 can make socket connections. Can you create a Gemini browser custom rom?
2020-09-13 15:17:39 admicos if the homebrew toolchains are still around, why not
2020-09-13 15:17:44 admicos mine is already jailbroken
2020-09-13 15:20:11 felix That's odd though, I think portal.mozz.us even works in Lynx.
2020-09-13 15:20:24 @tomasino Shooting for most esoteric client award
2020-09-13 15:20:34 admicos felix: it's because the https support is so damn old in this
2020-09-13 15:20:41 admicos otherwise the sites woulr work
2020-09-13 15:20:43 admicos would*
2020-09-13 15:21:04 felix Oh, right. Damn.
2020-09-13 15:22:03 felix Yet another victim of the "encrypt all the things!!!" rush.
2020-09-13 15:22:13 sandra But do encrypt all the things though.
2020-09-13 15:23:02 felix No, I'd very much rather not, thanks. For this and other reasons.
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2020-09-13 15:25:35 admicos oh wow, psl1ght seems to be still maintained
2020-09-13 15:32:32 kevinsan admicos, I have a half-baked proxy at https://gemini.susa.net:1993/proxy.html if you want to try on PS3
2020-09-13 15:33:26 admicos kevinsan: just unplugged mine to make some room on my desk :/ maybe later though
2020-09-13 15:37:38 kevinsan admicos, couldn't resist trying it - it works (on the stock-firmware browser, at least)
2020-09-13 15:43:41 felix Your proxy seems to work fine. :)
2020-09-13 15:55:34 kvothe o/
2020-09-13 15:55:58 sandra kvothe: Whateven is "rustup"?
2020-09-13 15:56:13 felix Hello!
2020-09-13 15:56:31 kvothe oh, isn't that something that sets up a rust module? I'm not sure, lemme google
2020-09-13 15:57:18 kvothe ahh yep, one of those curlable scripts to set up rust
2020-09-13 15:57:49 sandra Yes...
2020-09-13 15:58:06 kvothe I tried rust once, the language itself seemed pretty neat but I wasn't a fan of the cargo kitchen sink approach
2020-09-13 15:58:14 sandra I wanted to install https://github.com/ClementTsang/bottom but all the options are shady AF. Like "hi download my binary .deb"
2020-09-13 15:58:34 sandra Yeah I think we talked about that; we compared it to CPAN and such
2020-09-13 15:58:45 sandra Also I've been overly prolific on CAPCOM
2020-09-13 15:58:50 sandra I've got like half the posts on there
2020-09-13 15:59:08 felix Someone has to.
2020-09-13 16:00:11 makeworld Less shady in Arch Linux sandra :)
2020-09-13 16:00:14 kvothe more writing is always better than less writing :)
2020-09-13 16:00:59 sandra makeworld: :)
2020-09-13 16:02:02 kvothe I, for one, have been enjoying your writing (and kensanata's) about D&D things. I've never actually played, but it's super fascinating!
2020-09-13 16:03:14 sandra Arguably the "# Clone from master and install manually" option on that Bottom git repo README page is fine
2020-09-13 16:03:49 lewiscowper Hello geminauts :)
2020-09-13 16:03:57 sandra Iiiiif you trust all the random libraries cargo pull down :(
2020-09-13 16:03:59 kvothe o/ lewiscowper
2020-09-13 16:04:00 sandra Hi lewiscowper
2020-09-13 16:06:06 lewiscowper I have a probably really stupid question, and I'm not even sure it makes much sense, but if I wanted to start exploring CGI scripts, (see my latest post here gemini://tilde.club/~lewiscowper/gemlog/2020-09-13.gmi), right at the end of that post, there's a list of things I think I need to figure out to make my dreams of dynamic gemini content real. Does that seem like a reasonable
2020-09-13 16:06:08 lewiscowper summary? My fear is that I've missed something basic, as it's my first CGI experience ever.
2020-09-13 16:06:28 sandra I was juuuust reading that post :)
2020-09-13 16:06:34 lewiscowper (for example, are CGI scripts used in gemini capsules served over gemini at all? Or called out to from gemini as http
2020-09-13 16:06:46 sandra They are over gemini
2020-09-13 16:07:14 lewiscowper and is the /cgi-bin/ directory something that's part of a standard, or is that server dependent?
2020-09-13 16:07:39 makeworld That's server depedent
2020-09-13 16:07:56 makeworld Most servers allow you to specify a directory for cgi binaries, or just lets them happen anywhere
2020-09-13 16:08:01 felix It's a widely used convention in the HTTP world.
2020-09-13 16:08:03 makeworld Using cgi-bin is just a convention
2020-09-13 16:08:28 sandra It's a super retro convention in the HTTP world :) just like tilde dirs
2020-09-13 16:08:37 sandra It makes me nostalgic AF ♥♥
2020-09-13 16:09:19 makeworld lewiscowper: Beautiful castor theme btw
2020-09-13 16:09:25 makeworld Now do Kristall ;)
2020-09-13 16:09:26 kevinsan lewiscowper, CGI is basically just any executable program (script or binary) where the output (i.e. stdout) gets sent back to the client.
2020-09-13 16:09:42 lewiscowper yeah, while I do less of it now, I was a web developer for about 5 years or so, and it's never been something I've worked with. Having now read about it, I know it's not true, but I for some reason thought it was dependent on php
2020-09-13 16:10:21 kevinsan so printf("20 text/gemini\r\n# Hello"), if made executable is a working CGI script
2020-09-13 16:10:59 kvothe it's gotta be something executable and in a directory that the gemini server is configured to consider for CGI purposes
2020-09-13 16:11:16 lewiscowper okay dokey, so I'll need to do some digging in tilde.club :)
2020-09-13 16:11:27 sandra PHP, which sucks, became a smash mainstream hit by completely tangling up and messing up data and presentation in a way that the public was crying out for :D they loved it♥ I get some of the same kicks myself by quasiquoting SXML♥
2020-09-13 16:11:33 kvothe usually that means it needs to be a script with a shebang (e.g. python or perl)
2020-09-13 16:12:27 lewiscowper executable scripts I'm familiar with at least, just never built them to be used over the web :)
2020-09-13 16:12:33 lewiscowper also makeworld: Challenge accepted
2020-09-13 16:12:47 makeworld Yess! Please share afterward lol
2020-09-13 16:12:52 kvothe yep yep, literally just stdout redirected to the client :)
2020-09-13 16:13:01 kevinsan I've got a bunch of my cgi-stuff available here https://gitlab.com/ksangeelee/gemini - help yourself
2020-09-13 16:13:04 makeworld I've been wanting a nice kristall theme but I'm lazy and not really a designer
2020-09-13 16:13:22 idf sup
2020-09-13 16:13:29 makeworld kvothe: Usually you have to output headers and stuff too for gemini
2020-09-13 16:13:32 makeworld Sup
2020-09-13 16:13:47 sandra When I was a very very young girl my mom brought home a "how to make CGI scripts" thing for me that she had printed out at work. And I read it and read it and it was so difficult to understand and when I was through I was like…
2020-09-13 16:13:47 sandra "And to make the actual scripts is beyond the scope of this document" I was so disappointed! I didn't know what "stdout" was, I would've wanted to know everything including all those basics.
2020-09-13 16:14:00 lewiscowper oh hey, I think I was just talking about wanting this (I think) -- https://gitlab.com/ksangeelee/gemini/-/blob/master/cgi_assets/html2text
2020-09-13 16:14:59 kevinsan lewiscowper, html2text, index and search are *binaries* - they have been compiled by me, and i'm shady as f*ck!
2020-09-13 16:15:07 makeworld Haha
2020-09-13 16:15:08 kvothe lol
2020-09-13 16:15:20 sandra :(
2020-09-13 16:15:38 sandra has left #gemini ("part weird creature")
2020-09-13 16:15:58 lewiscowper lol
2020-09-13 16:15:59 kevinsan :) jk, i just want you to know. I can give you the source dirs if you need (I patched Swish++ and html2text for my own nefarious purposes)
2020-09-13 16:17:06 kvothe hm.
2020-09-13 16:17:31 kevinsan specifically, swish++ lowers the limit of non-acronym words to 3 chars, and html2text does something different for pre-blocks (if i remember correctly)
2020-09-13 16:17:49 lewiscowper I wasn't going to just drop them in without inspecting them or figuring out the sources, but I was just talking about how things like the lobste.rs mirror, (and the hacker news mirror that I couldn't find again that I thought was on gemini://gempaper.strangled.net/mirrorlist/), but when I click a link I go back and forwards between firefox and castor, or lynx and bombadillo.
2020-09-13 16:25:49 felix It will be a while before there's enough content on Gemini.
2020-09-13 16:26:05 kevinsan how much is enough?
2020-09-13 16:26:12 lewiscowper gemini://tilde.club/~lewiscowper/cgi-bin/helloworld.sh \o/
2020-09-13 16:26:24 felix Two weeks ago we still had half the number of servers Gopher has.
2020-09-13 16:26:27 lewiscowper kristall finished building too, what a moment
2020-09-13 16:27:08 felix It's alive! Aliiive!
2020-09-13 16:27:16 kevinsan well done lewiscowper - your first step to a dynamically generated wonderland
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2020-09-13 16:28:15 lukee hi folks
2020-09-13 16:28:30 kvothe lewiscowper: congrats on the cgi hello world!
2020-09-13 16:28:42 kvothe lukee: hiya!
2020-09-13 16:28:54 lukee hi kvothe
2020-09-13 16:30:00 lukee Just pushed a minor update to duckling proxy to fix bug where it would crash on reaching the user supplied download threshold. Also removed my patch for AV-98 as solderpunk has pushed an update to AV-98 that now supports http proxies
2020-09-13 16:30:24 lukee its always nice to take stuff out as well as put it in
2020-09-13 16:31:02 kvothe \o/
2020-09-13 16:40:09 lukee felix: it seems remarkable after about a year, gemini has half the number of gopher servers which must have slowly grown over what, 20 years?
2020-09-13 16:40:55 felix Isn't it?
2020-09-13 16:41:32 felix But for now the absolute number is relatively low.
2020-09-13 16:41:45 felix And those servers don't have much content yet either.
2020-09-13 16:41:48 lukee still, Gopher does win the longevity prize. We dont know if Gemini will be active for that amount of time
2020-09-13 16:42:48 lukee yes, you're right.
2020-09-13 16:42:49 felix It will have been a great journey if not.
2020-09-13 16:43:02 felix And we'll have learned things.
2020-09-13 16:43:21 lukee Sometimes recently I think Gemini should be rebranded D&DNet, so many posts
2020-09-13 16:43:54 lukee maybe it is something about the demographics...
2020-09-13 16:44:19 felix We happen to have enthusiastic early adopters who also play.
2020-09-13 16:46:02 lukee I'd love to see a wider user base, not just computer nerds like us
2020-09-13 16:46:42 felix It can't be helped for now.
2020-09-13 16:46:59 felix Flounder seems to have an audience of poets and such.
2020-09-13 16:47:25 lukee that's true. There are pockets of them here and there
2020-09-13 16:47:44 lukee shows the barriers to adoption are still quite high
2020-09-13 16:48:18 lukee you either have to be a sysadmin, or know someone who is
2020-09-13 16:48:29 lukee by and large
2020-09-13 16:54:34 felix Yeah, we have the tilde servers and little else.
2020-09-13 16:57:23 lukee Still, I definitely won't be implementing the Twitter to Gemini interface as a way to increase the userbase ;)
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2020-09-13 16:59:04 felix For microblogging we want twtxt instead anyway.
2020-09-13 16:59:13 lukee what is twtxt?
2020-09-13 16:59:44 felix https://twtxt.readthedocs.io/en/latest/
2020-09-13 17:08:47 lukee thanks
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2020-09-13 17:35:51 Cadey i am going to probably install someone else's gemini server
2020-09-13 17:36:10 Cadey are there any in Go that support CGI?
2020-09-13 17:36:24 lukee there are a couple. I know Molly Brown does
2020-09-13 17:38:25 lukee its written in Go.
2020-09-13 17:38:36 lukee some of the others supporting CGI might not be in Go
2020-09-13 17:39:21 pitr I'm curious why people use CGI, and not a simple proxy pass?
2020-09-13 17:39:45 pitr i haven't used cgi since perl days ~15 years ago
2020-09-13 17:40:05 felix Because CGI is simple and works?
2020-09-13 17:40:08 lukee ease of deployment I think. Get the script working offline, then drop it in the folder
2020-09-13 17:40:44 lukee but CGI doesnt scale up to thousands of concurrent connections, so people moved away form it
2020-09-13 17:41:35 felix Do we all need to support thousands of concurrent connections?
2020-09-13 17:41:35 lukee but here in Geministan we are a small band of users trying things out, so we dont need Internet size scalability
2020-09-13 17:41:47 felix :D
2020-09-13 17:41:53 lukee snap felix
2020-09-13 17:42:46 pitr with perl/ruby/other interpreted languages i understand how this works, but with go you still need to compile it, no? cross compile locally then rsync?
2020-09-13 17:43:50 lukee yes, but maybe one might want a Go server to hack on, whilst supporting CGI scripts in whatever language
2020-09-13 17:43:55 felix It depends. Big web apps like Gitea are distributed as single executables.
2020-09-13 17:44:21 lukee pitr: are you the pitr behind gig?
2020-09-13 17:44:25 pitr ya
2020-09-13 17:44:36 pitr are you luke who emailed me earlier today?
2020-09-13 17:44:41 lukee yes :)
2020-09-13 17:44:48 pitr nice to meet you
2020-09-13 17:44:57 lukee likewise and you
2020-09-13 17:46:29 pitr I am going to address your feedback for ios client soon, and release to store. Thanks again
2020-09-13 17:46:31 Cadey pitr: with Go I don't have to be an expert in how packaging for Go works to consume the code safely
2020-09-13 17:47:33 lukee Cadey - if you are interested in Gemini servers in Go, maybe check out pitr's https://github.com/pitr/gig
2020-09-13 17:47:45 pitr it's not super complicated: `GOOS=linux GOARCH=amd64 CGO_ENABLED=0 go build .` and that's about it
2020-09-13 17:47:59 pitr but i get the ease of cgi, nothing against it
2020-09-13 17:48:12 Cadey my point is 1 binary != a virtualenv and god knows what else lol
2020-09-13 17:48:58 pitr I haven't had any requests for a glv.one account, maybe it's not as needed as I thought haha
2020-09-13 17:50:32 lukee pitr: I had a possible idea for your virtual glv.one accounts - to run a public demo instance of Duckling. But my skills with building a docker env is non existent
2020-09-13 17:51:17 pitr i can help :)
2020-09-13 17:51:28 pitr not sure what duckling is, can you share a link?
2020-09-13 17:51:53 lukee HTTP proxy for Gemini: https://github.com/LukeEmmet/duckling-proxy
2020-09-13 17:53:41 pitr hmm should be simple enough, just need a simple Dockerfile that copies the (cross compiled for linux) binary and ssl keys and run it - https://github.com/pitr/geddit/blob/master/Dockerfile
2020-09-13 17:54:27 pitr and to build/deploy - last 3 steps of this Makefile - https://github.com/pitr/geddit/blob/master/Makefile#L30-L37
2020-09-13 17:56:17 pitr if duckling could refresh certificates once in a while, don't even need to provide keys as glv.one gives you let's encrypt ssl keys - https://github.com/pitr/geddit/blob/master/main.go#L24-L41
2020-09-13 17:56:48 pitr i can open a PR for this into your repo
2020-09-13 17:58:22 lukee yes thanks! I'll follow up with you offline.
2020-09-13 18:06:49 pitr so clients supporting per-scheme proxies will make request to the proxy URL, (ie ClientHello message in SSL handshake will contain proxy's hostname) but the gemini request in the first 1024 bytes will be for the https url, correct?
2020-09-13 18:08:03 lukee yes
2020-09-13 18:08:46 lukee the proxy does the work to get the content and returns it to the client. The client just sees a normal Gemini server
2020-09-13 18:10:43 makeworld pitr: Yeah that's how most Gemini proxies are supposed to work afaik
2020-09-13 18:11:30 makeworld Similar to how vhosting works
2020-09-13 18:11:37 lukee hi makeworld
2020-09-13 18:11:45 makeworld Heyo!
2020-09-13 18:12:16 makeworld Bought an rtl-sdr yesterday and I'm excited for it to arrive
2020-09-13 18:12:44 makeworld I wonder if I can serve it over Gemini somehow...
2020-09-13 18:13:45 lukee well it seems you can plug it into a raspberrypi https://www.rtl-sdr.com/
2020-09-13 18:14:21 idf i have a rtl-sdr and i used to plug it in my rpi, saddly i didnt get much signal so i gave up, then i used it for tracking planes
2020-09-13 18:14:35 idf i think a gemini page that would track planes using dump1090 would be cute
2020-09-13 18:22:13 lewiscowper makeworld: gemini://tilde.club/~lewiscowper/files/nord-kristall.png
2020-09-13 18:22:31 lewiscowper (still trying to figure out how to get my KDE UI theme applied, will continue working on it later)
2020-09-13 18:23:14 lewiscowper I definitely need a better link colour though
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2020-09-13 18:27:50 lewiscowper maybe a bit too aggressive with the link colours? gemini://tilde.club/~lewiscowper/files/nord-kristall-links.png
2020-09-13 18:28:36 lukee lewiscowper: from your latest post, looks like perhaps you are looking for your GUI gemini clients (Castor/Kristall) to support an HTTP proxy.
2020-09-13 18:28:56 lewiscowper I'm not 100% sure, as I essentially want like a "reading mode" link through
2020-09-13 18:29:10 lewiscowper so for example the contents of the <main> or <article> tags etc
2020-09-13 18:29:29 lewiscowper something that can strip it all away and have it automagically passed through as text
2020-09-13 18:30:01 lukee yes you need an HTML navigational-cruft-remover
2020-09-13 18:30:11 lukee in your workflow
2020-09-13 18:30:16 lukee there are various
2020-09-13 18:30:47 lukee I hope to build one into Duckling at some future point
2020-09-13 18:31:47 makeworld lewiscowper: Nice! Got a config file or something for that?
2020-09-13 18:31:57 lewiscowper yep, hang on, I exported the preset
2020-09-13 18:34:01 lewiscowper gemini://tilde.club/~lewiscowper/files/nord.kthm
2020-09-13 18:34:03 lewiscowper makeworld: ^
2020-09-13 18:34:17 lewiscowper you should hopefully be able to import that and have it work
2020-09-13 18:35:07 makeworld Downloaded with gemget ;)
2020-09-13 18:35:12 makeworld Thanks, will try later
2020-09-13 18:35:23 makeworld idf: dump1090 seems interesting, thanks for the link
2020-09-13 18:35:32 makeworld But I was sorta picturing something like websdr but for Gemini
2020-09-13 18:35:34 lukee lewiscowper: there is the "Readability" library, and various forks of it
2020-09-13 18:35:46 lewiscowper lukee: the proxy might be the thing that I actually want, but I'd like the client to be able to show the original URL etc, which may well be fine
2020-09-13 18:35:52 lewiscowper and yeah, that'd likely be my angle
2020-09-13 18:36:15 lewiscowper I think at this stage I might wind up writing some kind of client
2020-09-13 18:37:09 lukee yes you need a bit of UI in the client so that the user can choose:
2020-09-13 18:37:21 lukee a) see the full HTML as GMI in the client
2020-09-13 18:37:32 lukee b) see a sanitised (reader mode) version
2020-09-13 18:37:40 lukee c) launch the URL in the system web browser
2020-09-13 18:38:55 lukee this is how I'm implementing that UI in GemiNaut: https://imgur.com/a/sf7Tvy6
2020-09-13 18:40:32 lewiscowper yeah that looks nice
2020-09-13 18:42:39 lukee thanks - its still WIP
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2020-09-13 18:49:18 idf makeworld: no problem, btw i had problems using the google maps thingie that shows you planes on a map included, mostly because the token expired, so you can either replace the token or use a fork that works, i used the flightaware fork
2020-09-13 19:02:33 makeworld Where is that fork?
2020-09-13 19:03:33 idf well you mentioned a raspberry pi, https://github.com/flightaware/piaware so you might be interested in this
2020-09-13 19:04:00 makeworld I didn't actually lol, everyone after me did. I might use my RPi for this but idk. I have a regular debian server that I might use as well
2020-09-13 19:04:09 makeworld But I guess I could put my RPi outside
2020-09-13 19:04:16 idf oh sorry
2020-09-13 19:04:42 idf there's still this https://github.com/flightaware/dump1090
2020-09-13 19:05:09 makeworld Hmm yeah looks for internal use though
2020-09-13 19:05:14 makeworld Anyway interesting thanks
2020-09-13 19:05:46 idf i think it should work for normal stuff aswell, even the old original archived repo links to it
2020-09-13 19:06:01 makeworld Oh hmm ok
2020-09-13 19:06:14 idf well "original", the original fork would be more fitting
2020-09-13 19:06:19 idf https://github.com/mutability/dump1090
2020-09-13 19:06:43 idf this project really has a lot of forks for some reason
2020-09-13 19:06:53 idf fun stuff
2020-09-13 19:07:13 idf but afaik the flightaware one is the most widely used now
2020-09-13 19:10:39 idf an interesting project would be making like a bunch of gemini files about different planes and making a cgi that takes dump1090's output and makes a link for every plane and when you enter the link you get information about every plane
2020-09-13 19:10:54 idf *about the respective plane
2020-09-13 19:11:30 idf could make a git repo so people could contribute with fun aviation facts :D
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2020-09-13 20:23:52 makeworld Haha sounds interesting! I will see
2020-09-13 20:24:03 makeworld Seems like a creative way to doxx myself though
2020-09-13 20:24:18 makeworld Broadcasting all the planes that fly overhead
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2020-09-13 20:50:43 epoch btw, geo URIs are a thing, if anyone starts writing stuff for the planes and maps.
2020-09-13 20:55:06 epoch hrm.. I was thinking of a way to show an association between an airplane and a geo URI
2020-09-13 20:55:13 epoch and then updating the geo URI
2020-09-13 20:55:28 epoch and now I have some streaming json coming out of my brain.
2020-09-13 20:56:31 epoch like, infinite stream of {"name":"PLANE_NAME","uri":"geo:lat,lon"}
2020-09-13 20:58:42 epoch (ofc it doesn't have to be json. /could/ just be the geo URI with the plane name after a bit of whitespace and client program would split there)
2020-09-13 21:08:12 epoch flightware.com's map pulls json data about planes from https://flightaware.com/ajax/vicinity_aircraft.rvt?&minLon=0&minLat=0&maxLon=180&maxLat=90&token=[merp]
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2020-09-14 06:11:24 ℹ klu_ is now known as klu
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2020-09-14 11:57:57 felix TFW you mirror a Gopher client on Gemini.
2020-09-14 12:02:51 CoopDot https://chaos.social/@coopdot/104862879249843604
2020-09-14 12:07:40 felix :D
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2020-09-14 14:47:30 ⚡ felix waves.
2020-09-14 15:55:31 idf guys i got the first user for my hosting service :)
2020-09-14 15:58:06 xj9 nice!
2020-09-14 16:01:43 idf yup :D
2020-09-14 16:02:02 felix Congrats!
2020-09-14 16:02:47 idf thank you :)
2020-09-14 16:07:25 felix Can we see?
2020-09-14 16:09:29 idf they haven't started hosting anything yet, but i got an email saying that they would like an account and so i made one
2020-09-14 16:09:37 felix Oh, okay!
2020-09-14 16:09:44 idf and replied, now i'm waiting, but, I still think its nice!
2020-09-14 16:09:52 felix Sure is!
2020-09-14 16:10:10 idf i hope i didnt forget to forward the ports lol
2020-09-14 16:11:12 idf yup, i did
2020-09-14 16:11:17 idf actually i forward to the wrong ip
2020-09-14 16:11:29 idf which is my laptop not my pi
2020-09-14 16:11:58 idf oh nvm, it's all correct!
2020-09-14 16:11:58 ⚡ felix grins.
2020-09-14 16:12:15 @tomasino yay
2020-09-14 16:50:31 mhj Heyo all~
2020-09-14 16:53:44 felix Hi!
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2020-09-14 17:29:07 ⚡ felix waves.
2020-09-14 17:51:36 companion_cube o/
2020-09-14 17:58:19 felix O hai!
2020-09-14 18:12:11 companion_cube \ô/
2020-09-14 18:12:21 felix Hee!
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2020-09-14 18:17:13 mhj What's up all~
2020-09-14 18:17:40 idf nothing much
2020-09-14 18:17:43 mhj Anything new in Jemland
2020-09-14 18:17:46 acdw ey ey
2020-09-14 18:19:04 mhj Listening to a podcast about privacy and security. The Ask Noah Show. Apparently the newest Thunderbird has a built-in encryption feature.
2020-09-14 18:19:35 wallet yes
2020-09-14 18:19:40 wallet pgp built-in
2020-09-14 18:19:57 mhj Ooh cool
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2020-09-14 18:40:47 @tomasino truly truly outrageous
2020-09-14 18:41:59 acdw thunderbird?
2020-09-14 18:42:10 @tomasino JEM-ini
2020-09-14 18:42:30 @tomasino https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BWy-a1HHhc
2020-09-14 18:42:30 acdw haha yse
2020-09-14 18:42:42 acdw YES
2020-09-14 18:42:53 acdw apparently the nasa dudes would pronounce it Jemminy
2020-09-14 18:44:27 @tomasino we used to say jigga-wat, like in back to the future also
2020-09-14 18:44:51 @tomasino the j's really transitioned quickly to a hard g
2020-09-14 18:45:14 @tomasino how to you say gif these days?
2020-09-14 18:45:36 acdw gif
2020-09-14 18:45:43 acdw omg this song fucking slaps
2020-09-14 18:46:02 @tomasino Jem is badass
2020-09-14 18:46:29 acdw omg i need noelle stevenson to do a remake of jem as well. or like, have a she-ra/jem crossover
2020-09-14 18:46:32 acdw that would be soo good
2020-09-14 18:46:46 @tomasino it would
2020-09-14 18:46:49 @tomasino it's ripe for it
2020-09-14 18:47:07 @tomasino the movie they made had pretty much nothing to do with the show
2020-09-14 18:47:10 @tomasino i was greatly disappointed
2020-09-14 18:47:35 acdw oof that sucx
2020-09-14 18:48:20 acdw dude seriously tho, this song is so good -- i'm just listening to the extended theme
2020-09-14 18:48:38 @tomasino https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doKes13H5_g
2020-09-14 18:48:42 acdw I need a MCU-style Mattel Cinematic Universe
2020-09-14 18:48:58 acdw oh that bassline tho
2020-09-14 18:50:04 @tomasino https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9G4U_wM3o6Y
2020-09-14 18:51:29 acdw is this going to be your next tilde radio show? bc ... it should be
2020-09-14 18:51:44 @tomasino oh man
2020-09-14 18:51:52 @tomasino there might be enough jem content for an hour long show
2020-09-14 18:52:05 @tomasino i wanna see powderpaint cover this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulPwG6wY9xA
2020-09-14 18:52:09 @tomasino i should toot them
2020-09-14 18:52:57 acdw OH SHIT THEY TRAVEL THRU TIME!?!?!?!?!!?
2020-09-14 18:53:00 acdw oh my goawd
2020-09-14 18:53:18 acdw i need to tweet @ noelle stevenson rn
2020-09-14 18:53:30 @tomasino please make a jem & the holograms show come back
2020-09-14 18:53:38 @tomasino i used to watch this before school. such great memories
2020-09-14 18:54:38 @tomasino oh acdw, check the comments in this one. Some great background on the singer - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bjvfb8GqCl4
2020-09-14 18:55:20 acdw you are sending me down the best rabbit hole rn
2020-09-14 18:55:44 acdw oh that's rad a
2020-09-14 18:55:46 acdw af
2020-09-14 18:56:12 acdw okay I tweeted noelle stevenson. after following her lol. so it's basically a done deal
2020-09-14 18:57:12 @tomasino yay
2020-09-14 18:59:28 acdw heha
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2020-09-14 20:19:47 thewetcrab Hello 0/
2020-09-14 20:19:49 thewetcrab Anyone had had the change to watch Social Dilemia on NetFlix yet?
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2020-09-14 20:29:50 michel thewetcrab: watched it on release day!
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2020-09-14 21:12:37 kevinsan michel, thewetcrab: did it do justice to the subject, or was it all hype and little substance?
2020-09-14 21:13:22 thewetcrab Do you think it will help the wider general public understand the issues with social media and how it is / can be harmful to society?
2020-09-14 21:13:57 lewiscowper my gemlog made it on to capcom! After having to replace my RSS feed with an Atom feed :) \o/
2020-09-14 21:22:01 kevinsan I read Chaos Monkeys (about facebook), and Trust Me, I'm Lying - neither did much to discuss the issues. Chaos Monkeys was entirely crap, the other went a bit into things like a/b testing and engagement metrics.
2020-09-14 21:25:35 kevinsan the subject is immense though, not helped by opacity of the wrong-doers. I also think the wrong-doing might be largely emergent, which makes it difficult to get a proper handle on
2020-09-14 21:25:53 thewetcrab kevinsan Chaos Monkeys is a great name, shame to hear it is crap! :/
2020-09-14 21:26:58 kevinsan it was awful - more of a Zuckerberg PR piece really. One of those "You WON'T BELIEVE what I'm about to tell you!"... then sfa, rinse, repeat, end.
2020-09-14 21:27:07 thewetcrab Yes agree this is all very emergent, I'm usually good at having a gut feeling about tech, I was on social media early and feel like I got off it early-ish. Feel like I have been winding down my social media use and warning others about the dangers for about 3+ years now
2020-09-14 21:32:29 kevinsan Jaron Lanier (who features in the film) talked on UK daytime TV a year or two ago about the dangers of social networking addiction. He said something like this:
2020-09-14 21:33:27 kevinsan "It's making society insane. They're addicted to nonsense. What you can do to help is stop using it and keep a clear head so you can help in the aftermath."
2020-09-14 21:34:19 kevinsan I paraphrase :) But it was essentially what he said. It was refreshing to have a voice of reason get to speak.
2020-09-14 21:40:06 thewetcrab kevinsan Jaron Lanier has popped up a few times in my search for knowledge about why I should stop using social media.
2020-09-14 21:40:24 thewetcrab I was tempted today to get his book You Are Not A Gadget, do you know much about that book?
2020-09-14 21:40:30 thewetcrab Do you know much about Jaron Lanier ?
2020-09-14 21:41:00 thewetcrab I am trying to decided if I should or should not get the book. I don't know much about Jaron Lanier so I don't know how much value I assign to his opinion about all of this.
2020-09-14 21:41:33 kevinsan No, I don't know much about him. He's clearly bright, and seems to have genuine integrity. I'd read his book (if I was more of a reader - you've just prompted me though)
2020-09-14 21:44:54 kevinsan I watched this recently - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5i6LXdj_Z6s it's a tribute thing to Ted Nelson. I noticed that, even while paying tribute to Nelson, he argues a differing opinion with him (on bitcoin) right on stage!
2020-09-14 21:47:03 thewetcrab I have to go now kevinsan, do you come here often would be great to chat with you more about this.
2020-09-14 21:47:13 thewetcrab I will watch that video tomorrow, thanks for posting the link :)
2020-09-14 21:47:18 kevinsan I thought that shows Lanier's integrity, to defy social norms and general politeness to honestly give his opinion, the tone in his voice shows we was aware of it.
2020-09-14 21:47:25 kevinsan yes, i'm here often enough. see ya!
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2020-09-15 01:23:54 michel kevinsan: sorry, just got back. I think it's well worth watching. I work for one of those companies and... have been deeply skeptical of social media for years but this still managed to shake me even more
2020-09-15 01:27:32 michel I read Chaos Monkeys prior to starting at Facebook. It's ... crap as a critique of the industry. it's not bad for internal Facebook lore. The author worked at Goldman Sachs before, so... can't expect a moral epiphany
2020-09-15 01:30:49 michel tempted to read You're Not A Gadget myself. I've just read Ten Arguments for Deleting Your Social Media Right Now -- I find it a harder read than, say, Tim Wu's book against monopolies (The Curse of Bigness) and I don't know if it's because Lanier weaves so many disparate points into his 10 arguments or because the subject matter is so depressing
2020-09-15 01:31:02 michel there's a nice A/B test for it though, I can read Tim Wu's "Attention Merchants" :p
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2020-09-15 04:03:25 kayw probably going to start a new project and make a GTK gemini client that focused on running on mobile platforms
2020-09-15 04:06:26 kayw it'll still be able to run on desktops, but it's primarily for mobile Linux systems
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2020-09-15 12:44:21 makeworld The lagrange client is amazing wow
2020-09-15 12:44:43 makeworld FTS of the previous pages I visted, for example
2020-09-15 12:44:46 makeworld Through the address bar
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2020-09-15 12:58:19 @tomasino i still need to check that one out
2020-09-15 12:58:52 makeworld It's much easier now than it was before, you can just do a git clone --recursive and some cmake commands
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2020-09-15 13:12:26 @tomasino wow, this is pretty
2020-09-15 13:12:27 @tomasino and fast
2020-09-15 13:13:14 @tomasino looks like it's also using the domain-powered background colorization thing
2020-09-15 13:13:17 @tomasino brilliant
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2020-09-15 13:15:32 idf sup
2020-09-15 13:17:08 xfnw hi idf
2020-09-15 13:47:42 kevinsan idf, how's your first user coming along - have they created anything yet?
2020-09-15 13:48:47 kevinsan i remember my first web app i wrote, when i got my first user they sql injected my site and rooted the box :)
2020-09-15 13:49:00 kevinsan that was a long time ago!
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2020-09-15 14:26:22 ged day 0 on gemini and I realize that the web does so many things
2020-09-15 14:26:26 ged in that "too much things"
2020-09-15 14:28:09 felix :D
2020-09-15 14:28:30 ged All I've been using my browser for has been to search for
2020-09-15 14:28:38 felix Yeah. That's kind of the point with Gemini, overcompensating.
2020-09-15 14:28:38 ged (my cat stepped on my keyboard)
2020-09-15 14:28:41 felix To make a point.
2020-09-15 14:28:50 ⚡ felix pets the kitty
2020-09-15 14:29:27 ged All I've been using my browser for has been to search for Gemini client, to setup my terminal and weechat, and to signup on tilde.team
2020-09-15 14:29:34 felix Hee!
2020-09-15 14:30:00 ged Sorry for the flood
2020-09-15 14:30:10 ged I've pet the kitty for you
2020-09-15 14:30:26 felix What flood? We're here to chat.
2020-09-15 14:30:29 felix And yay!
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2020-09-15 14:30:58 ged Using OpenBSD, I should create unprivileged users for amfor and weechat
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2020-09-15 14:31:50 ged (Users who don't have any privilege, whose home directory is /var/empty)
2020-09-15 14:32:59 felix What if you want to download something?
2020-09-15 14:33:12 rak What for?
2020-09-15 14:34:04 felix ...The same reasons you download things from the web?
2020-09-15 14:34:21 rak felix: no, sorry, that was address to ged.
2020-09-15 14:34:21 ged Oh, yes, you're right
2020-09-15 14:34:45 ged ... Well I didn't get the point with unprivilged users
2020-09-15 14:34:54 ⚡ felix nodnods.
2020-09-15 14:35:36 ged I forgot my phone at my mum's, so I can't read Absolute OpenBSD right now
2020-09-15 14:35:56 ged (I may use clumsy syntax because I'm not a native English speaker, feel free to correct me)
2020-09-15 14:36:12 ged I mean, maybe "my mum's" is a little bit pretentious
2020-09-15 14:36:16 ged I don't know
2020-09-15 14:36:36 rak I've run irssi/weechat as my regular user for ~15 years now. I don't see the point in running your IRC client as an unprivileged user. Are you afraid that some security vulnerability in weechat is going to let someone send a carefully crafted string to your IRC client and somehow have it return the contents of your home directory or something?
2020-09-15 14:37:06 companion_cube or to get a shell on your machine I guess
2020-09-15 14:37:14 ged No, it's just for training
2020-09-15 14:37:30 ged I'd rather mess up with weechat than with a web browser
2020-09-15 14:37:46 companion_cube that's fair.
2020-09-15 14:37:59 felix Then yeah, it makes sense.
2020-09-15 14:38:26 @ben the only consideration i have for weechat is the relay protocol and the /exec plugin
2020-09-15 14:39:49 ged Hmmm
2020-09-15 14:39:57 ged Btw my pronouns are he/him
2020-09-15 14:40:07 ged Sorry, I was just thinking about this
2020-09-15 14:40:32 @tomasino ,pronouns
2020-09-15 14:40:33 tildebot [Pronouns] Pronouns for tomasino: "he, him"
2020-09-15 14:40:37 ged Oooh cool
2020-09-15 14:40:41 ged ,pronouns
2020-09-15 14:40:42 tildebot [Pronouns] ged: Please set pronouns, e.g.: ,config ged pronouns she/her
2020-09-15 14:41:09 companion_cube nice
2020-09-15 14:41:21 ged ,config ged pronouns "they, them"
2020-09-15 14:41:22 tildebot [Config] Config 'pronouns' set to '"they, them"'
2020-09-15 14:41:39 ged ,config ged pronouns they/them
2020-09-15 14:41:40 tildebot [Config] Config 'pronouns' set to 'they/them'
2020-09-15 14:41:48 ged ,pronouns
2020-09-15 14:41:49 tildebot [Pronouns] Pronouns for ged: they/them
2020-09-15 14:41:57 ged Sorry for the flood
2020-09-15 14:42:03 companion_cube you can /query tildebot
2020-09-15 14:42:06 companion_cube to play with that
2020-09-15 14:42:15 @tomasino s'alright. the bot does a lot. worth exploring in a query sometime
2020-09-15 14:42:17 ged Thanks
2020-09-15 14:43:14 ged I don't know what the fuck my gender is
2020-09-15 14:43:18 ged Sorry
2020-09-15 14:43:26 companion_cube what's is tildebot implemented in, tomasino?
2020-09-15 14:43:39 xfnw tildebot: source
2020-09-15 14:43:40 tildebot [Info] Source: https://git.io/bitbot
2020-09-15 14:44:03 companion_cube oh nice.
2020-09-15 14:44:09 companion_cube all in python…
2020-09-15 14:45:37 @tomasino ,species
2020-09-15 14:45:39 tildebot [Species] tomasino is a superintelligent shade of the color blue
2020-09-15 14:45:54 felix Hee!
2020-09-15 14:46:32 @ben hooloovoo!
2020-09-15 14:46:54 ged ,species
2020-09-15 14:46:55 tildebot [Species] ged: Please set species, e.g.: ,config ged species sandcat
2020-09-15 14:47:08 ged ok, sorry
2020-09-15 14:47:12 @ben also some more stuff here: https://tildegit.org/ben/bitbot-modules
2020-09-15 14:47:18 @ben tildebot-specific
2020-09-15 14:47:19 ged Thanks!
2020-09-15 14:47:24 @ben if you're interested
2020-09-15 14:52:51 @tomasino lagrange is very pretty. Not sure i dig the intro paragraph auto-styling, especially when the document isn't text/gemini
2020-09-15 14:54:50 kevinsan ,config kevinsan pronouns it/that
2020-09-15 14:54:51 tildebot [Config] Config 'pronouns' set to 'it/that'
2020-09-15 14:58:17 kevinsan something i noticed with lagrang was high cpu usage (~8% of an i7 2.5GHz core) when the cursor is flashing in the url bar - anyone else seeing this?
2020-09-15 15:00:45 ⚡ tomasino looks
2020-09-15 15:01:12 @tomasino nope, almost 0 cpu and mem
2020-09-15 15:01:33 felix ,config felix pronouns he/him
2020-09-15 15:01:34 tildebot [Config] Config 'pronouns' set to 'he/him'
2020-09-15 15:01:52 @tomasino it's interesting that it's not static. It pops up to 0.5% cpu for a flash, then back to 0
2020-09-15 15:01:54 kevinsan maybe it relates to the software renderer (which I use becauese opengl screwed up for me)
2020-09-15 15:01:55 @tomasino polling or something?
2020-09-15 15:02:58 kevinsan that crossed my mind - SDL code is more gaming slanted, where timings have to be strictly imposed.
2020-09-15 15:03:40 @tomasino is lagrange processing data as a stream?
2020-09-15 15:03:46 @tomasino i just noticed it loaded this page in chunks
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2020-09-15 15:53:54 ⚡ felix waves!
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2020-09-15 16:11:40 kevinsan hi felix! what's new?
2020-09-15 16:12:19 felix A gamedev newsletter.
2020-09-15 16:12:25 kevinsan link?
2020-09-15 16:12:43 felix https://notimetoplay.org/blog/gamedev-news-20200915.html
2020-09-15 16:12:49 felix Not on Gemini, sorry.
2020-09-15 16:12:51 kevinsan i keep tinkering with game development, but really i'm not so good at it.
2020-09-15 16:13:04 felix As long as you're having fun.
2020-09-15 16:15:04 kevinsan your writing should come with a public health warning: can cause serious loss of time :)
2020-09-15 16:15:51 kevinsan btw, i'm really hopeful that china will accelerate work on risc-v cores - they're already doing a whole load of interesting stuff in that area
2020-09-15 16:16:41 kevinsan and it all works well towards low-tech (initially at least) computing.
2020-09-15 16:22:47 felix Wish I could say that gives me hope.
2020-09-15 16:23:01 felix Not holding my breath on Risc-V though.
2020-09-15 16:24:04 companion_cube why not? isn't it the only open architecture that has a chance?
2020-09-15 16:24:28 felix But does it?
2020-09-15 16:26:02 felix Open hardware of any kind never seems to have much luck at all.
2020-09-15 16:26:25 felix Always turns out to be so much harder to get going than expected.
2020-09-15 16:27:13 companion_cube well in this case it has at least a bit of traction I think
2020-09-15 16:27:16 kevinsan i've been using a risc-v mcu, and it's awesome to program. it feels clean in its architecture, interrupt handling is awesome. i love it
2020-09-15 16:27:17 companion_cube not open hardware, but open ISA
2020-09-15 16:27:20 companion_cube which is already something
2020-09-15 16:29:23 kevinsan to my mind, the proposition of risc-v is innovation - want 128 simple cores to see if it works, sure go ahead. no license discussions or cost implications.
2020-09-15 16:30:12 felix Doesn't help much if manufacturing the chips proves impractical.
2020-09-15 16:30:35 felix And then all the hardware that has to surround them.
2020-09-15 16:30:39 kevinsan that's true - also the issue of IP still exists, but there are potentially more people producing core designs and selling these
2020-09-15 16:30:59 felix Notice how single-board computers always end up with proprietary components?
2020-09-15 16:33:17 felix And we have so many excellent CPU architectures whose patents have expired.
2020-09-15 16:33:18 kevinsan they end up with proprietary components because there's little alternative when you chase performance.
2020-09-15 16:33:41 kevinsan like mips - another lovely isa
2020-09-15 16:33:55 felix Yes, exactly! Turns out it's not at all easy to get this stuff working well.
2020-09-15 16:34:30 kevinsan i mean, even the raspberry pi foundation upgraded and broke their pin layout at the first opportunity (there were reasons, but not good enough n my opinion)
2020-09-15 16:34:52 kevinsan chasing some camera interface that was never critical to their stated goals
2020-09-15 16:36:22 felix Don't get me started about Brits. See also: the OLPC.
2020-09-15 16:37:33 kevinsan but i genuinely expect a chinese company will come up with a cheap risc-v with mmu that can drive a reasonable spi framebuffer or similar.
2020-09-15 16:39:05 felix Assuming they have any reason to care.
2020-09-15 16:39:21 kevinsan nvidia is a good reason to care :)
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2020-09-15 19:52:58 admicos finally got a gemini browser installed on my new setup
2020-09-15 19:53:09 admicos also decided on making a new color scheme for it, thoughts?: https://ebc.li/anjv.png
2020-09-15 19:54:00 admicos (also lightmode: https://ebc.li/vfdn.png)
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2020-09-15 21:07:21 rak I should finish my gemini browser some day.
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2020-09-15 21:52:14 kevinsan how far on are you rak? what did you use to write it?
2020-09-15 22:19:42 admicos aah i just realized i gitignored my script to generate my atom feed, guess i should start working on that static site generator i was planning on soon
2020-09-15 22:23:35 admicos i hope i didn't mess anything up hand-editing the feed :/
2020-09-15 22:31:14 @tomasino i'm sure you'll do great
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2020-09-15 23:41:00 kevinsan admicos, i just wrote a (simple!) bash script to generate an atom feed from a list of files, do you want it?
2020-09-15 23:41:24 kevinsan you've reminds me, commit it!
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2020-09-16 00:02:04 kevinsan Committed. https://gitlab.com/ksangeelee/gemini/-/blob/master/cgi_assets/make_atom.sh
2020-09-16 00:23:40 login cool
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2020-09-16 01:01:02 ℹ Mode #gemini [+o julienxx] by hub.tilde.chat
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2020-09-16 02:31:10 makeworld Stripped lagrange binary is only 705kb I'm impressed
2020-09-16 02:31:50 makeworld I guess it has dynamic linking but still
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2020-09-16 02:45:38 rak kevinsan: not very. it can make requests and show the results in a curses-like interface. ocaml.
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2020-09-16 13:04:22 ⚡ felix waves!
2020-09-16 13:10:51 ged ???
2020-09-16 13:11:15 ged Oups
2020-09-16 13:11:20 ged That was my cat
2020-09-16 13:11:25 ged Sorry
2020-09-16 13:12:11 felix <3 kitty
2020-09-16 13:12:31 ged Cat #1 just attacked cat #2 because she was jealous
2020-09-16 13:13:48 felix Hee!
2020-09-16 13:13:54 ged Btw, the nord color scheme is amazing
2020-09-16 13:14:10 ged Excuse me, but I don't know what it means when you say "Hee!"
2020-09-16 13:15:04 felix I thought that was funny.
2020-09-16 13:16:08 ged Oh so it's how you laugh on the internet?
2020-09-16 13:16:29 ged Sorry, I didn't get it
2020-09-16 13:18:27 felix Not sure how one is supposed to do it.
2020-09-16 13:19:51 ged np, sorry, I might be weird
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2020-09-16 15:44:41 kevinsan /who
2020-09-16 15:46:14 felix Who indeed!
2020-09-16 15:47:17 kevinsan hi felix! i am testing the tiny irc client kirc, and creating some noise - sorry!
2020-09-16 15:48:12 kevinsan oh, since you're here felix, I found this https://www.nucleisys.com/product/rvipes/ux600/
2020-09-16 15:48:52 felix I'll have to look up this client!
2020-09-16 15:49:20 kevinsan awesome risc-v cpu that had support added to the risc-v toolchain since april, so i think we might see a cheap risc-v linux board soonish
2020-09-16 15:49:43 felix And damn, that page takes its time to load. But okay!
2020-09-16 15:49:43 kevinsan it's on HN at the moment https://github.com/mcpcpc/kirc
2020-09-16 15:50:03 companion_cube kevinsan: does it run linux? :p
2020-09-16 15:50:13 kevinsan two days after I got IRC over telnet figured out so I can send messages via Gemini client
2020-09-16 15:51:41 kevinsan companion_cube, i don't even know a board that uses it yet, but the silicon must exist. looking at the specs, there's no reason why it can't run linux
2020-09-16 15:51:57 companion_cube well, does linux support risc-v? :p
2020-09-16 15:52:56 xfnw yes, but i think only Debian works on it at the moment
2020-09-16 15:52:57 kevinsan um, yes?
2020-09-16 15:53:02 xj9 i think i remember drew devault posting about building alpine linux on a riscv system
2020-09-16 15:53:32 companion_cube oh ok, that's cool
2020-09-16 15:54:29 companion_cube if they make a raspi like I might buy that some day
2020-09-16 15:55:05 kevinsan i hope it's nothing like a raspi :)
2020-09-16 15:56:00 companion_cube I mean in size and power :p
2020-09-16 15:56:09 companion_cube or do you expect it to be faster?
2020-09-16 15:56:54 kevinsan i don't know - i'd take openness over performance.
2020-09-16 15:58:13 companion_cube agree, up to a certain point
2020-09-16 15:59:43 kevinsan the thing is, when you scale back the layers of abstraction, you can get a lot of snappy performance from old hardware.
2020-09-16 16:00:56 kevinsan on the other hand, i wrote some simple C code recenty, and was reminded of how tedious and risky it can be.
2020-09-16 16:01:09 kevinsan so, yeah - agreed, up to a point! :_
2020-09-16 16:01:13 companion_cube if it were to be useful as a somewhat general purpose computer, it still needs to, say: read audio/video, run a graphical interface…
2020-09-16 16:01:16 companion_cube kevinsan: try rust ;)
2020-09-16 16:01:18 companion_cube (oops)
2020-09-16 16:02:11 kevinsan i'm thinking about learning some rust, but i'm still on my 'back to basics' mission of rediscovery.
2020-09-16 16:02:32 companion_cube going to the roots is fun, yes
2020-09-16 16:02:43 companion_cube but rust at least takes the risky and tedious sides away :)
2020-09-16 16:03:01 companion_cube (and introduces some fighting with the compiler instead)
2020-09-16 16:03:32 felix Performance is hardly an issue. NetBSD runs on incredibly old systems.
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2020-09-16 16:03:56 felix Alpine Linux might have trouble with older CPUs, being Linux, but it's still comparably lightweight.
2020-09-16 16:04:03 companion_cube alpine is probably a good idea :p
2020-09-16 16:04:13 felix Yeah, except for the release cycle.
2020-09-16 16:04:42 kevinsan do they have a debian-like evolutionary path, or is it the opposite?
2020-09-16 16:06:22 felix I think there's a new release every six months, and they get updates for another 18.
2020-09-16 16:06:52 felix Makes sense for appliances. For the desktop, I'll take LTS.
2020-09-16 16:06:58 companion_cube what's wrong with that?
2020-09-16 16:07:03 companion_cube for a desktop I'd rather have more recent stuff
2020-09-16 16:07:45 felix Sure, if you don't mind risking to break stuff with each upgrade.
2020-09-16 16:07:54 felix Assuming it's made to be upgraded in place.
2020-09-16 16:08:10 felix Which I'm not sure of, because of the focus on appliances.
2020-09-16 16:09:19 kevinsan seems quite fast to me. the shine's gone of shiny for me, it's usually superficial shine in any case. i'm all about stability and dependability these days
2020-09-16 16:09:58 felix Exactly! Otherwise it *is* a nice distro, light and clean.
2020-09-16 16:10:21 felix It's lighter than Puppy Linux in fact. Pretty amazing.
2020-09-16 16:10:42 felix Well-documented, too, and easy to admin.
2020-09-16 16:11:16 companion_cube (I think it contains rustup so I'm good :P)
2020-09-16 16:11:18 kevinsan arch seems to come up a lot when i'm searching for stuff - their docs are really well written
2020-09-16 16:11:31 felix It's also popular.
2020-09-16 16:11:43 companion_cube arch is nice, but only on desktop
2020-09-16 16:12:54 kevinsan i tend to use xfce, so forgoe a lot of modern desktop niceties in favour of light and consistent.
2020-09-16 16:20:02 felix What niceties would those be, anyway?
2020-09-16 16:21:10 companion_cube I use i3, but it'd be hard to not have a browser and pdf reader
2020-09-16 16:21:12 companion_cube for example
2020-09-16 16:21:35 felix What's that have to do with the desktop environment?
2020-09-16 16:22:28 companion_cube I mean, I at least need some graphic programs
2020-09-16 16:22:40 companion_cube not directly related, sorry
2020-09-16 16:25:09 felix Well, yes, that's a problem nowadays, more generally.
2020-09-16 16:29:30 kevinsan yes companion_cube, i get that - so i3 gives you the best of both worlds. like tmux with graphics tacked on?
2020-09-16 16:29:48 companion_cube kind of, yes
2020-09-16 16:29:55 companion_cube navigation via keyboard
2020-09-16 16:30:09 companion_cube firefox and evince and mpv, the rest is in terminals
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2020-09-16 16:48:07 ⚡ felix waves!
2020-09-16 16:49:32 companion_cube 👋
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2020-09-16 18:53:58 timemachine does any one have a quick reference of a regex that matches a gemini url?
2020-09-16 18:54:48 companion_cube `gemini://[^ ]*` ? :p
2020-09-16 18:56:39 timemachine fairenough. :)
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2020-09-16 19:29:29 lukee good morrow inhabitants of geminiland
2020-09-16 19:30:49 lukee found this via HN. Whilst it is about https not gemini, it is actually quite a reasonable yet entertaining overview of how TLX works
2020-09-16 19:30:51 lukee https://howhttps.works/
2020-09-16 19:31:08 lukee TLX->TLS
2020-09-16 19:32:42 lukee obv it takes the view that server certs should be signed by a CA, but just skip that bit and eat up your TOFU
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2020-09-16 20:22:23 acdw Got a proposal fer yall: gemini://gemlog.blue/users/acdw/1600277960.gmi
2020-09-16 20:26:24 @tomasino so many levels to it
2020-09-16 20:26:25 @tomasino :P
2020-09-16 20:27:08 acdw hehe
2020-09-16 20:27:10 acdw :^)
2020-09-16 20:27:24 lukee great stuff acdw
2020-09-16 20:27:38 acdw i am actually thinking of forking elpher to render more line types, and will include the :^)
2020-09-16 20:27:41 acdw thanks lukee
2020-09-16 20:28:20 lukee irony is a dish best served incomprehended
2020-09-16 20:28:30 acdw oh that's good lol
2020-09-16 20:28:52 acdw can we ,grab in here?
2020-09-16 20:28:55 acdw ,grab lukee
2020-09-16 20:28:55 tildebot [Quotes] Quote added
2020-09-16 20:28:57 acdw yeeee
2020-09-16 20:29:25 lukee so I'm going to say your proposal is a willful misinterpretation of the spirit of Gemini
2020-09-16 20:29:59 lukee :^) besides, where will it end
2020-09-16 20:30:12 acdw :^) indeed
2020-09-16 20:30:23 lukee BTW what is the ,grab thing?
2020-09-16 20:30:40 acdw :^) there should totes be linetypes for all sorts of tonal changes
2020-09-16 20:30:54 acdw ,grab is for 'tildebot' ? I think it adds your quote to the quote db
2020-09-16 20:30:57 acdw ,quot lukee
2020-09-16 20:31:00 acdw ,quote lukee
2020-09-16 20:31:00 tildebot [Quotes] lukee: <lukee> irony is a dish best served incomprehended
2020-09-16 20:31:04 acdw ^ like that
2020-09-16 20:31:17 lukee Oh I see!
2020-09-16 20:31:20 acdw :D
2020-09-16 20:31:58 lukee I always hear a different voice when I read a blockquote
2020-09-16 20:32:42 lukee how does one read the quote db?
2020-09-16 20:33:54 acdw I have no idea, tbh
2020-09-16 20:33:57 acdw I just grab quotes
2020-09-16 20:34:02 acdw you could maybe ask in #bots
2020-09-16 20:34:23 lukee maybe the point is to grab them to help oneself remember them
2020-09-16 20:34:46 acdw maybe?
2020-09-16 20:34:54 acdw ,quote acdw
2020-09-16 20:34:54 tildebot [Quotes] acdw: <acdw> I mean IRC is bae
2020-09-16 20:35:12 acdw there is https://quotes.tilde.chat/
2020-09-16 20:35:18 lukee shall I ask what does that mean?
2020-09-16 20:35:20 acdw but I'm not sure if it picks it up from here
2020-09-16 20:35:52 acdw "bae" ? bae is slang for "before anyone else" --- pronounced "bay", it's a slang term for your #1, or in this case, just saying IRC is great
2020-09-16 20:36:58 lukee I'm so not up with IRC slang
2020-09-16 20:37:11 acdw oh that's regular-people slang
2020-09-16 20:37:24 acdw ,ud bae
2020-09-16 20:37:24 tildebot [UrbanDictionary] bae: [Bitch] [ain't] [educated]
2020-09-16 20:37:24 lukee That makes my point even more so
2020-09-16 20:37:27 acdw oh well
2020-09-16 20:37:29 @tomasino is that what it stands for?
2020-09-16 20:37:32 acdw that's apparently also what it can me
2020-09-16 20:37:33 acdw an
2020-09-16 20:37:44 acdw tomasino: I've always heard "Before Anyone Else" so
2020-09-16 20:37:45 @tomasino i knew the meaning, but not that it was an acronym
2020-09-16 20:37:55 @tomasino this is my bae
2020-09-16 20:38:00 acdw apparently it's also what tildebot said -- though that's probably erroneous def
2020-09-16 20:38:08 lukee BTW there is some weird stuff in the quotes db. Glad I'm not in those other channels
2020-09-16 20:38:10 acdw I can't check at work -- urbandictionary is blocked
2020-09-16 20:38:11 @tomasino i figured it was an evolution of my beau
2020-09-16 20:38:34 acdw might be that too --- I would love to see a study of internet etymology
2020-09-16 20:38:41 acdw lukee: yeah...some are ~weird~ lol
2020-09-16 20:38:49 lukee I thought it stood for BAE Systems
2020-09-16 20:38:49 @tomasino https://smspantherpress.wordpress.com/2015/02/11/slang-origins-valentines-day-edition-history-of-bae/
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2020-09-16 20:40:17 acdw heck yes
2020-09-16 20:42:25 @tomasino hooray
2020-09-16 20:43:16 kevinsan ok, so when those *#$%"! youtubers use 'noob' and pronounce it nyoob, i get annoyed because i think it should be New-Bee
2020-09-16 20:43:22 kevinsan am i right or wrong?
2020-09-16 20:43:44 @tomasino you're always wrong on the internet
2020-09-16 20:43:49 acdw I always say "noob"
2020-09-16 20:43:58 acdw rhymes with "scoob"
2020-09-16 20:44:02 @tomasino newb
2020-09-16 20:44:09 acdw who says "nyoob" ? That's weird
2020-09-16 20:44:14 kevinsan acdw, sarcasm won't cut it - i want to use outright violence
2020-09-16 20:44:18 kevinsan :)
2020-09-16 20:44:21 acdw i disagree w/ that. I think it's either nooooob or noobee
2020-09-16 20:44:31 acdw kevinsan: then there should also be a violence linetype lol
2020-09-16 20:44:58 acdw 👊👊👊 i am angry
2020-09-16 20:45:14 kevinsan you're the master if utf, it has to be said
2020-09-16 20:45:19 @tomasino haha
2020-09-16 20:45:30 lukee kevinsan: that is because as a brit you pronounce "new" as "nyoo", not "noo"
2020-09-16 20:45:43 kevinsan i'm such a wimp, that actually bruised me
2020-09-16 20:45:53 kevinsan emotionally :)
2020-09-16 20:46:12 lukee why, it was just a linguistic observation
2020-09-16 20:46:21 kevinsan it's more the hard 'b' or 'bee' that i take issue with.
2020-09-16 20:46:36 kevinsan lukee, i meant acdw's punches
2020-09-16 20:46:47 lukee oh dear I need to keep up
2020-09-16 20:46:56 acdw aw kevinsan sorry
2020-09-16 20:47:05 acdw newbuh
2020-09-16 20:47:25 acdw lukee: I figured it was a dialect thing -- I'm from the south, we have lazy mouths
2020-09-16 20:47:51 lukee acdw: is that a new line type proposal right there?
2020-09-16 20:48:33 lukee sigh, the problem of reading a chat log backwards :/
2020-09-16 20:49:05 lukee I should stick to using kevinsan's gemini feed of the IRC log
2020-09-16 20:49:08 acdw hehe yeah
2020-09-16 20:49:23 acdw i know the struggle lukee
2020-09-16 20:50:25 lukee I guess this is one of the delicious parts of IRC, that we dont always know who is talking to whom
2020-09-16 20:50:51 admicos go one step further, remove nicks on your irc client
2020-09-16 20:51:00 lukee that is radical
2020-09-16 20:51:21 lukee is that a thing, or are you joking?
2020-09-16 20:51:46 admicos well, it can be if you want
2020-09-16 20:53:27 acdw :^)
2020-09-16 20:53:42 acdw it's all just me talking to myself ... solipsism
2020-09-16 20:53:55 admicos acdw: the toggle lines should be :v) and :^)
2020-09-16 20:54:38 acdw omg yes
2020-09-16 20:54:45 acdw mind if i add that to the article?
2020-09-16 20:54:49 admicos sure go for it
2020-09-16 20:55:24 lukee if I may say :^) is quite a friendly kind of face, not really sarcastic
2020-09-16 20:55:33 acdw thanks admicos
2020-09-16 20:55:44 acdw yeah lukee, idk but there's some article on it that mentions how it's a thing they do
2020-09-16 20:55:53 acdw i'll have to find it and share here
2020-09-16 20:56:40 lukee dont you need a wink to let the dumbass reader "hey, here comes some sarcasm" ;^)
2020-09-16 20:56:46 acdw haha
2020-09-16 20:57:19 lukee reader [know]
2020-09-16 20:57:48 acdw well of course :^) is impossibel to google for
2020-09-16 20:58:02 acdw I think we talked about it in here a while ago ... tomasino you have a log of eerything right?
2020-09-16 20:58:02 lukee the unironically attuned will just see a smiling face of agreement
2020-09-16 20:58:07 @tomasino i do
2020-09-16 20:58:21 ⚡ tomasino has all the logs
2020-09-16 20:58:26 acdw aw yeah
2020-09-16 20:58:31 acdw i'll search while i'm on the desk
2020-09-16 20:58:38 @tomasino i was sharing those on ~black
2020-09-16 20:58:47 @tomasino need to start pushing them to ~team
2020-09-16 20:58:59 @tomasino uno-momento
2020-09-16 21:01:45 @tomasino gemini://tilde.team/~tomasino/irc/log.txt
2020-09-16 21:02:21 lukee non-verbal signalling in text is actually a real problem
2020-09-16 21:02:50 admicos use emoji as hand gestures
2020-09-16 21:03:03 lukee with my boss?
2020-09-16 21:03:06 admicos sure why not
2020-09-16 21:03:21 @tomasino (the following is sarcastic)
2020-09-16 21:03:25 @tomasino solved it
2020-09-16 21:03:39 lukee sadly he operates in a humour free zone
2020-09-16 21:03:58 admicos wHaT aBoUt ThiS
2020-09-16 21:04:12 admicos it's a pita to type but it kinda works
2020-09-16 21:04:37 lukee I have resigned myself to the frustrated understatement instead
2020-09-16 21:05:04 lukee (a rather British sort of solution)
2020-09-16 21:10:06 @tomasino https://www.brainpickings.org/2013/09/27/shady-characters-irony/
2020-09-16 21:14:22 lukee great article.
2020-09-16 21:14:29 lukee I liked this quote: "Alcanter’s point d’ironie dripped with knowing humor: in a nod to the sentiment often conveyed by verbal irony , he described it as “taking the form of a whip,” and, aware that irony loses its sting when it must be signposted in exactly the manner he was proposing, the French name for his new symbol was a pun with the additional meaning of “no irony.”"
2020-09-16 21:16:04 @tomasino brainpickings does a solid job
2020-09-16 21:16:35 lukee so maybe acdw's proposal should rather signify that irony is being signified, but not actually intended
2020-09-16 21:16:55 lukee a double-bluff
2020-09-16 21:17:05 @tomasino can we get a special symbol for morisettian irony?
2020-09-16 21:17:19 lukee urgh not its not real irony
2020-09-16 21:17:30 @tomasino it is now! it's got a special term and everything. :D
2020-09-16 21:17:32 lukee its just her feeling annoyed
2020-09-16 21:17:36 @tomasino this is the stupid way language changes
2020-09-16 21:18:05 @tomasino is there an emoji of a jagged little pill?
2020-09-16 21:18:07 @tomasino that'd be perfect
2020-09-16 21:18:41 lukee well, if at least it could be distinguished from the real thing, maybe that is a win
2020-09-16 21:19:18 @tomasino now i wanna watch that episode of futurama
2020-09-16 21:20:39 lukee but ironically language does change, so maybe we have to accept a new meaning for our times
2020-09-16 21:21:28 @tomasino this the internet, where we die upon lonely pedantic hills
2020-09-16 21:21:52 lukee c'mon we are computer nerds, we die on pedantic hills together
2020-09-16 21:22:38 @tomasino :D
2020-09-16 21:43:24 xj9 i wonder if ithkuil has a sarcasm tag. or maybe i'm mixing up the grammar of ithkuil and lojban
2020-09-16 22:12:23 acdw hey yall i'm back and updated the article with the irc quotes
2020-09-16 22:13:30 acdw also my fav take on "Ironic" is that it's not ironic, but isn't that just a deeper irony? That it's a song called "Ironic" that's not so?
2020-09-16 22:13:47 acdw and then ... it folds back on itself again, and again, in a never-ending loop of deeper and deeper irony
2020-09-16 22:13:52 acdw a true Song for Our Times
2020-09-16 22:15:24 acdw gemini://gemlog.blue/users/acdw/1600277960.gmi btw
2020-09-16 22:15:33 acdw helloh .. oh .. oh .. oh
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2020-09-16 22:39:23 @tomasino Oh
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2020-09-16 22:43:14 acdw oh, oh oh oh oh
2020-09-16 22:43:17 acdw O
2020-09-16 22:45:10 @tomasino the right stuff
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2020-09-17 09:02:24 idf[m] sup
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2020-09-17 12:24:54 idf gemini://idf.looting.uk/~dokoissho first userdir yay
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2020-09-17 12:33:01 kevinsan Anyone who can list all the bands they've ever seen is bound to have words i want to spend time reading :)
2020-09-17 12:34:15 kevinsan I mean, Pink Floyd Animals tour way back, and Ryuichi Sakamoto a lot more recently? make sure they write a lot!
2020-09-17 12:43:58 @tomasino Oh yay, he just joined cosmic too
2020-09-17 12:45:25 idf nice
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2020-09-17 13:42:44 login hi flexibeast
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2020-09-17 14:24:30 kayw https://i.salejandro.me/browser_demo1.png update on the mobile browser i'm writing
2020-09-17 14:24:55 kayw can't do connections atm but i'm getting the shape of the browser first
2020-09-17 14:32:13 felix It's a start!
2020-09-17 14:32:30 kayw sure is!
2020-09-17 14:32:40 kayw I'm taking it as an opprotunity to learn Lua
2020-09-17 14:33:20 kayw sadly, the GTK library only has support for Lua 5.3 but I dont mind that
2020-09-17 14:33:34 @tomasino lua!
2020-09-17 14:33:51 lukee kayw: at least you have night mode sorted
2020-09-17 14:34:19 lukee is it android or cross-platform?
2020-09-17 14:37:25 felix How do you make Lua / Gtk apps for Android?
2020-09-17 14:37:39 kayw It's not for android.
2020-09-17 14:37:51 kayw It's for mobile Linux devices like the pinephone
2020-09-17 14:38:03 kayw but since it's GTK it'll scale for desktops
2020-09-17 14:38:18 felix Oh!
2020-09-17 14:39:49 lukee the more devices, the merrier
2020-09-17 14:40:26 felix Definitely!
2020-09-17 14:42:02 kayw also lukee: It'll use the GTK theme that you have set. No need to make a dark mode!
2020-09-17 14:42:20 lukee so, pink with blue spots mode it is then
2020-09-17 14:42:33 kayw yep
2020-09-17 14:44:33 lukee if there is a windows build I can provide feedback, but that might not be high up your priority list
2020-09-17 14:46:38 kayw I need to do more research into compiling Lua, but I'm 95% sure that you're not supposed to
2020-09-17 14:47:10 kayw even then, you just run the lua file and have the modules installed
2020-09-17 14:47:30 companion_cube it's probably too dynamic to be compilable well
2020-09-17 14:47:55 lukee but I suppose you have to assemble the GTK libraries in with the lua script at least
2020-09-17 14:48:25 felix There are plenty of ways to install Lua on Windows. To package apps with an interpreter, not so sure.
2020-09-17 14:48:34 felix Not outside of Love2D in any event.
2020-09-17 14:49:14 lukee whoever came up with that name struck marketing gold
2020-09-17 14:49:29 felix So it's a safer bet to install Lua, install whichever Gtk binding is used here, and run the app.
2020-09-17 14:49:53 lukee sounds good, I'd give it a try
2020-09-17 14:49:54 felix :D
2020-09-17 14:50:09 wgreenhouse felix: ...someone should make a love2d gemini browser :D
2020-09-17 14:50:19 wgreenhouse game toolkits are some of the best at being crossplatform
2020-09-17 14:50:32 kayw you can also use the WSL and some X11 hackiness
2020-09-17 14:50:38 felix Oh! Yes they are! There's even an Android package.
2020-09-17 14:51:07 kayw speaking of which, i should probably try that
2020-09-17 14:51:29 felix Ended up not installing it. My one Love2D game so far isn't touchscreen-friendly.
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2020-09-17 14:53:02 lukee It is interesting to speculate - what is the smallest GUI library needed to build a graphical Gemini client?
2020-09-17 14:53:12 lukee (cross platform if poss)
2020-09-17 14:53:48 felix I'm not sure if Tk or FLTK is smaller.
2020-09-17 14:54:35 felix And you kind of need a rich text control, or else to write your own.
2020-09-17 14:54:47 felix Oh! Pyglet has rich text support.
2020-09-17 14:55:18 felix Even though it's not otherwise designed for GUIs.
2020-09-17 14:55:29 lukee no you dont need a rich text control
2020-09-17 14:55:33 lukee since gemini is line based
2020-09-17 14:55:44 lukee every line has its own style, no sub line styles
2020-09-17 14:56:08 lukee really a gemini UI is a glorified menu in its simplest
2020-09-17 14:56:45 felix But each line must be able to soft-wrap, and take different styles.
2020-09-17 14:57:01 felix At the very least margins and colors.
2020-09-17 14:57:05 kayw https://i.salejandro.me/eVNye3.png got it working on windows
2020-09-17 14:57:33 lukee yes you need a menu of styleable labels and buttons
2020-09-17 14:58:04 lukee kayw: nice
2020-09-17 14:58:24 lukee now onto the juicy bits of networking and UI
2020-09-17 14:58:28 kayw yep
2020-09-17 14:58:40 kayw thankfully solderpunk made a Lua gemini client so i can refer to that
2020-09-17 14:59:12 kayw I also need to figure out history
2020-09-17 14:59:14 lukee I think it was Picasso who said "good artists copy, the best artists steal"
2020-09-17 14:59:44 lukee kayw: just a stack with a cursor to an index in it
2020-09-17 15:00:41 kayw yeah, the history is just going to be a table that when you go back the last item in the list is removed
2020-09-17 15:00:43 lukee or even just a stack if you just want to implement "back" but not "forward"
2020-09-17 15:00:57 kayw yeah forward is going to be a pain in the ass
2020-09-17 15:01:26 felix It's not a big problem when you're just scrolling through a command-line history.
2020-09-17 15:01:35 lukee its not too bad - just clear the top of the stack whenever the user goes forward
2020-09-17 15:01:40 felix But for a Gemini client, yeah, just make it go back for now.
2020-09-17 15:02:39 kayw if I was using WebView, then it would be able to handle forwards and backwards in history
2020-09-17 15:03:36 lukee felix: FLTK is nice and small. It seems to have a wrapped text label thing which might do its own text wrap: https://www.fltk.org/doc-1.3/common.html
2020-09-17 15:04:49 lukee kayw: yes a native web renderer can do a lot for you like history, styling etc. but it is heavier of course
2020-09-17 15:04:55 felix I seem to remember it has something better, but the documentation is... leafy.
2020-09-17 15:05:47 felix I'd stick to Tk, I'm familiar with it and I've already demonstrated a gmi viewer.
2020-09-17 15:08:52 lukee I wasnt trying to suggest you should build one :)
2020-09-17 15:10:28 lukee But in general I think all that is needed is some kind of vertical list control, containing a collection of styled texts, and perhaps buttons for interactive links
2020-09-17 15:10:57 lukee or some way to catch clicks on an element that is a link
2020-09-17 15:11:40 lukee Maybe a GUI can be even simpler than that
2020-09-17 15:12:54 lukee a plain text box, where a double click selects out to the whitespace boundary of a word, then the UI inspects the selection for a link
2020-09-17 15:13:02 lukee pretty minimal
2020-09-17 15:14:06 lukee the hair-shirt gemini client (TM)
2020-09-17 15:15:09 felix In principle you can go as low-tech as those less-based clients.
2020-09-17 15:15:40 felix But I switched from Bombadillo to Amfora in the console after not very long.
2020-09-17 15:16:25 lukee I think there are 2 minimal elements to the UI:
2020-09-17 15:16:35 felix It helps a lot with visually parsing a page.
2020-09-17 15:16:44 lukee 1. a scrollable display of (plain or styled text)
2020-09-17 15:16:49 lukee 2. a way to activate a link
2020-09-17 15:17:11 lukee anything else is aesthetic and usability augmentation
2020-09-17 15:19:30 lukee 3. An address bar or equivalent where you can randomly jump to a full URL
2020-09-17 15:19:37 felix Sure, but those are important.
2020-09-17 15:19:49 lukee 4. a back button (or back command)
2020-09-17 15:20:04 lukee what else is *essential* for the UI?
2020-09-17 15:20:11 felix I couldn't help but notice how clients tend to have that thing where you hit space and enter a link number.
2020-09-17 15:20:24 lukee some do, that is a terminal thing
2020-09-17 15:20:25 felix Never saw that before getting started with Gemini.
2020-09-17 15:20:42 felix I think that's significant.
2020-09-17 15:21:08 lukee TBH I think it is a bit hacky. Its only necessary as you can't directly interact with the content
2020-09-17 15:21:25 lukee but I'm not a terminal nerd
2020-09-17 15:22:04 lukee the number thing for links is the implementation of feature 2 above
2020-09-17 15:22:37 felix You can in pretty much any text-based web browser.
2020-09-17 15:23:12 lukee it looks a bit ugly IMO if the user chooses to use their own link indexing in the content
2020-09-17 15:23:25 lukee which is not uncommon
2020-09-17 15:23:44 felix And Amfora adds a clunky link selection mode.
2020-09-17 15:24:43 lukee how does that work? another way to activate a link or to step through them?
2020-09-17 15:24:45 felix It's simple and obvious to do it with numbers -- for a programmer.
2020-09-17 15:25:01 felix You hit Enter and then press Tab repeatedly.
2020-09-17 15:25:01 lukee we just need to agree, do we start from 0 or 1 :)
2020-09-17 15:25:37 felix I panicked a little when thinking how I'd do it in Tk.
2020-09-17 15:26:11 felix But then figured, the correct answer is to do it right.
2020-09-17 15:26:29 lukee can't you just have a table of references to the links, and then look up into that?
2020-09-17 15:26:45 felix Yes, you can!
2020-09-17 15:27:16 lukee did you decide to do any more work on your gemini viewer to make it interactive?
2020-09-17 15:27:29 felix Nope. Been considering it, just in case.
2020-09-17 15:27:42 felix Would be nice to make it navigate the local filesystem.
2020-09-17 15:29:49 felix But it's not very useful to be honest.
2020-09-17 15:29:59 lukee that would be nice - what would be the advantage over using the terminal/shell
2020-09-17 15:30:24 felix Apart from not keeping a terminal busy? Very little.
2020-09-17 15:31:31 lukee why not wire it up to gemget - it can do all the gemini retrieval work and just pass the text back to your viewer?
2020-09-17 15:32:17 lukee I guess you could even evoke it from the shell gemget geminiurl | tkviewer
2020-09-17 15:32:25 felix Because that's silly, and pointless when so many clients exist.
2020-09-17 15:33:20 lukee hmmm - is that a damming indictment of all the gemini software development ;)
2020-09-17 15:33:31 felix And would add an extra dependency when it's simple enough to write the network code.
2020-09-17 15:33:49 lukee fair enough if you feel like looking into it
2020-09-17 15:33:52 felix Well, dunno, people know better why they wrote all those clients.
2020-09-17 15:34:14 lukee personally I find network software a bit dull, even if it is important
2020-09-17 15:34:20 felix I wrote two of my own for Gopher back in the day. Had reasons then.
2020-09-17 15:36:11 lukee well its a lot of work to go from a sort of prototype to something polished for everyday use
2020-09-17 15:36:24 lukee for a full client or server
2020-09-17 15:36:56 felix Indeed, that's why mine aren't. But at the time there was nothing better.
2020-09-17 15:37:27 felix Now there are excellent multi-protocol clients in active development.
2020-09-17 15:38:30 lukee I suppose sometimes we feel the urge to scratch an itch, other times you just want to use something that already works
2020-09-17 15:41:09 lukee anyhoo, I have to dash off do some other stuff now. Catch you later!
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2020-09-18 16:35:31 acdw hello yall! I'm thinking about using smart quotes in my new gemlog posts, do you think taht's a good idea or nah?
2020-09-18 16:35:47 acdw like, what do you think is the UTF coverage of clients? I'm sure it's pretty good
2020-09-18 16:35:57 acdw Also what are your opinions on "fancy quotes"?
2020-09-18 16:40:29 felix I don't much care for them. And I *think* clients are generally good about supporting UTF-8, but, not sure.
2020-09-18 16:42:07 admicos acdw: as long as you don't use them inside code or anything someone would need to copy, i'd say go ahead
2020-09-18 16:42:15 acdw the default encoding is utf, so now i'm thinking about it, it's prlly good
2020-09-18 16:42:24 admicos assuming accessibility software takes care of them i assume most people wouldn't mind
2020-09-18 16:42:36 acdw I remember now: my issue was FONTS. How many fonts do you think *don't* have the smart quotes in them?
2020-09-18 16:42:49 acdw hm yes makese sense admicos -- i'd have to do some fanciness with ``` blocks
2020-09-18 16:43:10 admicos wait, you don't mean not everyone has 1gb of fonts from the same family just to get all known characters?
2020-09-18 16:43:17 felix It would have to be a pretty crappy font.
2020-09-18 16:43:45 admicos s/don't//g
2020-09-18 16:45:32 acdw lol who knows
2020-09-18 16:45:41 acdw I guess it *is* 2020
2020-09-18 16:45:57 acdw so like, most fonts should have basic quotes -- and I'm thinking guillemets
2020-09-18 16:46:20 acdw if other languages can have their quotes (which aren't fancy, just quotes), then english can have its "fancy" quotes
2020-09-18 16:46:32 acdw it's not my fault that ASCII is anglophonic
2020-09-18 16:46:37 acdw angloglyphic**
2020-09-18 16:50:07 felix Fair enough.
2020-09-18 16:50:27 acdw :D
2020-09-18 16:50:28 acdw ty felix
2020-09-18 16:50:41 companion_cube « hello »
2020-09-18 16:50:46 felix :D
2020-09-18 16:53:51 felix But seriously: to open my biggest site in Lynx and be able to see the emoji just fine...
2020-09-18 16:54:02 felix ...that's a big reminder of how far we've come.
2020-09-18 16:54:23 acdw oh that's cool. yes it's pretty rad!
2020-09-18 16:54:23 felix I still remember when encodings were a big issue. And a bigger mess.
2020-09-18 16:54:29 companion_cube a client that doesn't support utf8 is broken, plain and simple
2020-09-18 16:54:32 acdw and you're right -- plenty of geminiauts use emoji
2020-09-18 16:54:37 acdw aight then, quotes it is
2020-09-18 16:54:40 acdw curly it up
2020-09-18 17:21:05 acdw another q: do yall know any gemini modes for emacs besides jmcbray's? Or how to set a font-lock for a region?
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2020-09-18 23:07:36 ericonr hi-ah, anyone using https://github.com/MasterQ32/gurl ?
2020-09-18 23:08:05 ericonr I think it's the only gemini implementation I could find using BearSSL
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2020-09-19 02:28:41 xj9 >bearssl
2020-09-19 02:28:58 xj9 omg that's exactly the SSL lib i've been looking for
2020-09-19 02:29:07 xj9 thanks ericonr
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2020-09-19 03:12:27 ericonr heh, np
2020-09-19 04:02:01 @tomasino anyone have visibility into kristall on macos?
2020-09-19 04:10:05 swift tomasino, what do you mean by visibility? (i use kristall on macos)
2020-09-19 04:13:12 @tomasino i didn't see a binary on the website
2020-09-19 04:13:17 @tomasino did you have any issues building?
2020-09-19 04:14:17 swift the first time yes, but the instructions were updated I believe and I had it up and running in minutes
2020-09-19 04:15:21 swift https://github.com/MasterQ32/kristall/blob/master/BUILDING.md#macos
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2020-09-19 09:59:02 xq yeah there was a wonderful PR last week or so that updated the build instructions
2020-09-19 09:59:23 xq sadly, i have to admit: i don't think i'll have time to improve kristall anymore :(
2020-09-19 09:59:33 xq i should just package the current state into a 0.4 with a new binary release
2020-09-19 10:40:35 jan xq: that's sad to hear :(
2020-09-19 10:41:06 xq yeah, but that's the way of kinda all of my hobby projects
2020-09-19 10:41:13 xq i have no fun in maintaining stuff
2020-09-19 11:00:42 jan xq: i known what you mean
2020-09-19 11:01:46 xq yeah. i'm also quite happy with the state kristall is at right now
2020-09-19 11:02:04 jan totally
2020-09-19 11:03:00 jan ncgopher still has a way to go, but i've been quite busy lately
2020-09-19 11:12:05 jan bbl
2020-09-19 11:31:20 @tomasino Kristall is pretty great as is
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2020-09-19 12:06:15 lukee greetings, citizens of geminiland
2020-09-19 12:07:10 lukee Is it my imagination or is CAPCOM frozen for a couple of days? Seems surprising no updates since 17-Sep
2020-09-19 12:10:23 admicos i didn't even notice the date header but yeah it's a little frozen
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2020-09-19 12:30:02 lukee maybe I should just curb my CAPCOM FOMO
2020-09-19 12:30:47 lukee its not a bug, its a feature to help us all calm down
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2020-09-19 12:41:16 xq <tomasino> Kristall is pretty great as is
2020-09-19 12:41:16 xq <3
2020-09-19 12:51:14 oms kristall user checking in. thanks xq!
2020-09-19 12:54:22 xq \o/
2020-09-19 12:54:23 xq <3
2020-09-19 13:18:49 oms would you accept any patches? the one thing I was thinking of hacking up for myself is shorter tab names
2020-09-19 13:19:10 oms e.g. if a text/gemini starts with an h1, calling that a title and putting that in the tab
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2020-09-19 13:53:12 lukee oms: the first heading (or para if none) does seem to be the de facto page "title" used by some clients and search engines like GUS
2020-09-19 14:06:58 kvothe allo!
2020-09-19 14:13:34 kvothe lukee: yeppers, CAPCOM seems frozen
2020-09-19 14:19:58 acdw aww capcom
2020-09-19 14:41:26 xq <oms> would you accept any patches? the one thing I was thinking of hacking up for myself is shorter tab names
2020-09-19 14:41:29 xq i love accepting tabs!
2020-09-19 14:41:32 xq *patches
2020-09-19 14:41:33 xq #brainfart
2020-09-19 14:41:52 xq so if you want to do that: go ahead
2020-09-19 14:42:08 xq although i want to implement a non-trivial change *some day* which would support gemini-stream
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2020-09-19 15:56:49 ⚡ felix waves!
2020-09-19 16:07:25 @tomasino stream++
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2020-09-19 19:56:43 ℹ Topic for #gemini is "💎 Gemini (protocol) enthusiasts - gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | https://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | gopher://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | publically logged in gemspace"
2020-09-19 19:56:43 ℹ Topic set by tomasino (~tomasino@gopher.black) on Sun, 28 Jun 2020 20:55:49
2020-09-19 19:56:43 ℹ Channel #gemini: 105 nicks (2 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 103 normals)
2020-09-19 19:56:43 ℹ Mode #gemini [+o tomasino] by ChanServ
2020-09-19 19:57:07 ℹ Channel created on Sat, 31 Aug 2019 22:41:57
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2020-09-19 20:49:53 ℹ Topic for #gemini is "💎 Gemini (protocol) enthusiasts - gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | https://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | gopher://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | publically logged in gemspace"
2020-09-19 20:49:53 ℹ Topic set by tomasino (~tomasino@gopher.black) on Sun, 28 Jun 2020 20:55:49
2020-09-19 20:49:53 ℹ Channel #gemini: 104 nicks (2 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 102 normals)
2020-09-19 20:49:53 ℹ Mode #gemini [+o tomasino] by ChanServ
2020-09-19 20:50:18 ℹ Channel created on Sat, 31 Aug 2019 22:41:57
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2020-09-19 21:51:42 ℹ Topic for #gemini is "💎 Gemini (protocol) enthusiasts - gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | https://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | gopher://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | publically logged in gemspace"
2020-09-19 21:51:42 ℹ Topic set by tomasino (~tomasino@gopher.black) on Sun, 28 Jun 2020 20:55:49
2020-09-19 21:51:42 ℹ Channel #gemini: 105 nicks (2 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 103 normals)
2020-09-19 21:51:42 ℹ Mode #gemini [+o tomasino] by ChanServ
2020-09-19 21:52:06 ℹ Channel created on Sat, 31 Aug 2019 22:41:57
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2020-09-19 21:54:35 ℹ Topic for #gemini is "💎 Gemini (protocol) enthusiasts - gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | https://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | gopher://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | publically logged in gemspace"
2020-09-19 21:54:35 ℹ Topic set by tomasino (~tomasino@gopher.black) on Sun, 28 Jun 2020 20:55:49
2020-09-19 21:54:35 ℹ Channel #gemini: 104 nicks (2 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 102 normals)
2020-09-19 21:54:35 ℹ Mode #gemini [+o tomasino] by ChanServ
2020-09-19 21:54:59 ℹ Channel created on Sat, 31 Aug 2019 22:41:57
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2020-09-20 09:10:45 sandra CAPCOM doesn’t seem to have updated for a few days.
2020-09-20 09:34:39 Cadey I'm gonna fix my Gemini server today
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2020-09-20 10:57:27 kevinsan i think there are gremlins in space. my irc client is also acting up on the tilde.chat server(s)
2020-09-20 10:59:06 kevinsan weechat is working fine, but hexchat seems confused about something. i did upgrade my (znc) bouncer, so maybe related.
2020-09-20 13:15:04 flexibeast CAPCOM seems to have updated. :-D
2020-09-20 13:17:01 ℹ Siinamon is now known as siina
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2020-09-20 14:40:15 kvothe o/
2020-09-20 14:41:15 felix Hello!
2020-09-20 14:41:20 kvothe heya felix!
2020-09-20 14:41:25 felix How are you?
2020-09-20 14:41:40 kvothe Doing really well! Slept in, that felt pretty great :D
2020-09-20 14:41:45 kvothe how about yourself?
2020-09-20 14:41:47 felix Good to hear!
2020-09-20 14:42:00 felix Got a new article up. And new plans.
2020-09-20 14:42:08 felix Started on a side project, too.
2020-09-20 14:43:00 kvothe woo new things!
2020-09-20 14:44:13 felix Feels pretty good!
2020-09-20 14:58:13 felix Though it's not *quite* as nerdy as tinkering with Plan 9. ;)
2020-09-20 15:00:12 kvothe can you share a link to your article? :D
2020-09-20 15:00:23 @tomasino I like projects
2020-09-20 15:00:37 kvothe if a project brings you joy, it's a good project :D
2020-09-20 15:01:06 felix gemini://gemini.ctrl-c.club/~nttp/writing/other-tiny-scripting.md
2020-09-20 15:01:38 kvothe thankee!
2020-09-20 15:02:32 felix And well, I'm learning new things. Might even help a few people.
2020-09-20 15:03:38 kvothe Woo dispatch tables!
2020-09-20 15:05:16 felix Makes more sense for an open-ended language like this.
2020-09-20 15:05:36 felix Basic can make do with a switch statement.
2020-09-20 15:06:06 kvothe It's probably one of my favorite programming constructs :)
2020-09-20 15:07:36 felix Can't blame you.
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2020-09-20 15:15:17 ⚡ felix waves!
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2020-09-20 15:19:23 felix o/
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2020-09-20 16:14:24 felix Hello!
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2020-09-20 16:29:43 xq heya
2020-09-20 16:34:24 acdw hello!
2020-09-20 16:34:39 felix How's it going?
2020-09-20 16:34:46 acdw well! I see CAPCOM is unfrozen
2020-09-20 16:40:27 felix So it seems!
2020-09-20 16:43:46 acdw so I'm catching up
2020-09-20 16:46:57 felix Good thing Geminispace is not exactly busy as yet.
2020-09-20 16:47:39 acdw hehe yep
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2020-09-20 18:57:31 easeout wow yeah there are something like 40 new things
2020-09-20 18:58:49 easeout at least, my script sees 40 "add" lines in a diff of capcom from yesterday
2020-09-20 18:58:55 easeout ish
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2020-09-20 18:59:40 acdw oh boy !!!
2020-09-20 19:01:26 easeout i think 9/16 begins the new articles.
2020-09-20 19:01:57 acdw ye
2020-09-20 19:05:36 easeout spoke too soon. i remember some of these since as recent as 9/17
2020-09-20 19:38:22 @tomasino How's gemini feeling
2020-09-20 19:38:56 acdw good, you?
2020-09-20 19:38:58 acdw lol
2020-09-20 19:39:08 acdw actually I've got a pretty good setup in elpher now, so yeah, it comfy
2020-09-20 19:39:27 acdw I just need to figure out how to turn off smart-quotes in ``` blcoks when authoring and like, i'll be *SeT*
2020-09-20 19:40:45 @tomasino Doing well. Did some cosmic writing earlier
2020-09-20 19:40:57 acdw nice! I still need to sign up lol
2020-09-20 19:41:04 @tomasino Today was a board game day with the kiddo
2020-09-20 20:12:15 kevinsan how did their attention hold up?
2020-09-20 20:15:04 @tomasino good good
2020-09-20 20:15:09 @tomasino he's a good gamer
2020-09-20 20:15:32 kevinsan how old is he?
2020-09-20 20:17:31 @tomasino 8
2020-09-20 20:18:08 kevinsan wow, that's impressive. i suppose it helps having a dad who's a bit of an expert in the field :)
2020-09-20 20:18:37 kevinsan i have an 8 year old daughter who has an almost pathalogical aversion to learning anything from me!
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2020-09-20 22:01:23 lukee seeing as we discussed this on the channel not so long ago, I have written a short riposte to acdw's proposal for a new line type
2020-09-20 22:01:29 lukee to signify sarcasm
2020-09-20 22:01:49 lukee I do hope it will be taken seriously
2020-09-20 22:01:51 lukee gemini://gemini.marmaladefoo.com/blog/20-Sep-2020_An_improved_scheme_ironic_intent.gmi
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2020-09-20 22:19:57 kevinsan are the brackets in the irony-prefix literal, or do the signify grouping?
2020-09-20 22:20:10 lukee grouping!
2020-09-20 22:20:32 lukee I'm sure everyone will point out the flaws in my BNF
2020-09-20 22:21:19 lukee perhaps I should take the brackets out?
2020-09-20 22:21:53 lukee in fact I will as I didnt use them for the other terms
2020-09-20 22:22:48 kevinsan '' regardless, what can I say - marvellous is *not* the word.
2020-09-20 22:23:20 lukee thanks
2020-09-20 22:23:51 lukee but you dont need the "'" delimiters. They are there for mis-direction
2020-09-20 22:25:32 kevinsan :)
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2020-09-20 22:36:00 acdw lukee: love it
2020-09-20 22:36:22 lukee <3 acdw - thanks
2020-09-20 22:36:23 acdw really pushing the state of gemini art forward, thank you
2020-09-20 22:37:07 lukee you provided the seed and we had a great chat on the channel about it, so I wanted to follow up
2020-09-20 23:15:08 acdw :D
2020-09-20 23:24:43 makeworld lukee: What did I miss?
2020-09-20 23:26:40 lukee I posted a reply to acdw's proposal following a chat about sarcasm and irony on the channel - link is above in the chat.
2020-09-20 23:27:07 acdw a well-reasoned argument, to be sure
2020-09-20 23:38:18 lukee ok i have to toddle off now - its late here. Catch up soon o/
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2020-09-20 23:48:19 @tomasino ciao
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2020-09-21 00:44:11 acdw yo
2020-09-21 03:11:54 login yo
2020-09-21 03:12:06 kayw yo
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2020-09-21 12:43:53 oms i segfaulted kristall testing my hacky gemini server
2020-09-21 12:45:26 oms looks like it's in /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libQt5Network.so.5 , not the browser itself
2020-09-21 12:46:16 ericonr kristall could have passed bad pointers to it...
2020-09-21 12:52:06 xq :O
2020-09-21 12:52:14 xq i don't do any SSL myself though
2020-09-21 12:55:52 oms some backtrace at https://pastebin.com/ncBvft5G
2020-09-21 12:56:19 oms it repeats this over and over
2020-09-21 12:58:43 oms (happy to do more interactive debugging if you want via pm. i'm a complete noob at debugging c/c++ beyond getting a backtrace)
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2020-09-21 13:31:53 ged Hi, I'd like to know which software I should use to publish articles in my private space on gemini (e.g. how to publish a gemlog)
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2020-09-21 13:33:29 login hi ged
2020-09-21 13:33:43 ged hi login!
2020-09-21 13:33:51 login what is your private space?
2020-09-21 13:34:21 login is it the private directory that is present on many tildes?
2020-09-21 13:34:27 ged login: probably gemini://tilde.team/~ged
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2020-09-21 13:34:33 ged I'm sorry, this wasn't clear
2020-09-21 13:34:35 login oh, i see
2020-09-21 13:34:37 login i got it
2020-09-21 13:34:40 login you meant personal space
2020-09-21 13:34:44 ged Yeah
2020-09-21 13:35:36 login is opening a web page okay, or would you prefer if i wrote the answer here?
2020-09-21 13:37:40 ged login: of course I can open a web page
2020-09-21 13:38:46 ged I mean, it's very kind to ask, and maybe rude to assume that everyone has the hardware to open a web page
2020-09-21 13:39:03 ged But I can do this right now, thanks
2020-09-21 13:40:32 ged I didn't mean to shut you down, it was more like "of course, I can open a web page, thanks for asking"
2020-09-21 13:42:44 kevinsan ged, i don't think anyone thought you were being rude. on IRC, people go away, do stuff, come back, reply - it's very async`
2020-09-21 13:42:49 oms what's the recommended way for someone to make a cert for a server, for someone who doesn't know much about it
2020-09-21 13:43:04 ged thanks
2020-09-21 13:43:26 ged Then I'll go to the grocery shop and be back in about 30-45 minutes
2020-09-21 13:43:55 ged Thanks so much, I'll read replies to my question later
2020-09-21 13:44:06 Cadey no idea why my gemeni server is broken lol
2020-09-21 13:44:41 djph uhoh
2020-09-21 13:45:31 kevinsan oms: gemini://gemini.susa.net/gemini_prep_kit.gmi
2020-09-21 13:46:04 kevinsan there are examples for RSA and EC keys (courtesy of makeworld)
2020-09-21 13:46:24 Cadey gonna hack at it some more
2020-09-21 13:46:42 kevinsan if you search GUS for certificates, i'm sure you'll find more
2020-09-21 13:46:43 oms kevinsan: thx
2020-09-21 13:46:56 kevinsan Cadey: do you have a repo for your server?
2020-09-21 13:47:09 Cadey https://tulpa.dev/cadey/maj
2020-09-21 13:47:22 Cadey but the odd part is the HTTP side of it works
2020-09-21 13:48:18 login ged: https://tilde.team/wiki/gemini
2020-09-21 13:48:58 login yes, i was afk
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2020-09-21 13:49:42 oms anyone know of a server that's known to be running with a self-signed certificate?
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2020-09-21 13:51:01 oms my client is complaining about my server's cert being self-signed every time I try to make the connection, even after I've said to trust it, and I want to narrow it down to being self-signed vs. doing something else wrong on my end
2020-09-21 13:51:03 ericonr gemini://cosmic.voyage/log/ iirc
2020-09-21 13:51:30 oms huh, no complaints for cosmic.voyage - I must be doing something weird then
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2020-09-21 13:51:56 ericonr at least it complained when I tried connecting to it using system certs
2020-09-21 13:52:04 ericonr I assumed that meant it was self signed
2020-09-21 13:53:04 ericonr for another possibility, gemini://gempaper.strangled.net/mirrorlist/
2020-09-21 13:53:33 kevinsan oms: also gemini://acidic.website/
2020-09-21 13:55:16 ericonr oms: is the server/client your own? I managed to access a server in localhost using gemserv and self signed certs without issue
2020-09-21 13:55:32 oms yes, everything's on localhost
2020-09-21 13:56:24 ericonr how did you generate the cert?
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2020-09-21 13:57:25 ericonr openssl req -x509 -newkey rsa:4096 -keyout key.rsa -out cert.pem -days 3650 -nodes -subj "/CN=ericonr"
2020-09-21 13:57:57 oms basically with that, except /CN=oms
2020-09-21 13:58:03 oms it works now though when i did /CN=localhost
2020-09-21 13:58:41 kevinsan oms: your CN has to match the hostname you connect with (for most clients, at least)
2020-09-21 13:59:21 oms what happened is that I'm illiterate
2020-09-21 13:59:23 ericonr I believe castor doesn't require a match
2020-09-21 13:59:36 oms I followed kevinsan's guide down to 'create client certificate', but not all the way down to 'create server certificate'
2020-09-21 13:59:43 ericonr heh :P
2020-09-21 14:00:25 oms thanks all
2020-09-21 14:01:42 kevinsan don't forget to announce your server when you open it to the world!
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2020-09-21 15:13:06 ged login: thanks, I'll read this page
2020-09-21 15:14:39 ged Ok, brb
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2020-09-21 21:01:59 @ben looks like the topic here is getting garbled https://tilde.chat/stats/
2020-09-21 21:02:03 @ben ah it must be the emoji
2020-09-21 21:02:48 @tomasino emoji, ahha
2020-09-21 21:02:50 ℹ Topic for #gemini is "💎 Gemini (protocol) enthusiasts - gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | https://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | gopher://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | publically logged in gemspace"
2020-09-21 21:02:50 ℹ Topic set by tomasino (~tomasino@gopher.black) on Sun, 28 Jun 2020 20:55:49
2020-09-21 21:03:36 @tomasino i can change it... how do i echo the full current topic again?
2020-09-21 21:03:39 @tomasino /topic didn't do it
2020-09-21 21:04:14 ℹ Topic for #gemini is "💎 Gemini (protocol) enthusiasts - gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | https://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | gopher://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | publically logged in gemspace"
2020-09-21 21:04:14 ℹ Topic set by tomasino (~tomasino@gopher.black) on Sun, 28 Jun 2020 20:55:49
2020-09-21 21:05:42 ⚡ tomasino cheats and looks at logs
2020-09-21 21:06:53 ℹ tomasino has changed topic for #gemini from "💎 Gemini (protocol) enthusiasts - gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | https://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | gopher://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | publically logged in gemspace" to "Gemini (protocol) enthusiasts - gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | https://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | gopher://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | publically logged in gemspace"
2020-09-21 21:07:28 @tomasino there we go
2020-09-21 21:11:09 @ben nice it's back to normal on the stats page
2020-09-21 21:11:21 @tomasino easy peasy
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2020-09-22 02:24:13 ℹ irc: disconnected from server
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2020-09-22 02:24:57 ℹ Topic for #gemini is "Gemini (protocol) enthusiasts - gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | https://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | gopher://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | publically logged in gemspace"
2020-09-22 02:24:57 ℹ Topic set by tomasino (~tomasino@oper.tilde.chat) on Mon, 21 Sep 2020 21:06:53
2020-09-22 02:24:57 ℹ Channel #gemini: 105 nicks (2 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 103 normals)
2020-09-22 02:24:57 ℹ Mode #gemini [+o tomasino] by ChanServ
2020-09-22 02:25:37 ℹ Channel created on Sat, 31 Aug 2019 22:41:57
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2020-09-22 05:18:05 rmgr Apparently my capsule's just been shut down for like a fortnight :S
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2020-09-22 08:09:14 kevinsan rmgr: what went wrong, do you know?
2020-09-22 08:32:35 rmgr kevinsan: i think systemd just didn't bring it back up after a reboot, I'll have to check the config
2020-09-22 08:35:23 kevinsan I wonder if natpen would be able to add a 'broken host' list to GUS?
2020-09-22 08:35:27 kevinsan In fact it would be quite easy to use GUS info to survey the space and report server/cert anomalies.
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2020-09-22 13:56:19 companion_cube https://drewdevault.com/2020/09/21/Gemini-TOFU.html if it wasn't posted earlier
2020-09-22 13:56:26 companion_cube (not me)
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2020-09-22 15:13:12 felix o/
2020-09-22 15:13:23 companion_cube \o
2020-09-22 15:15:19 felix What's new?
2020-09-22 15:16:03 companion_cube idk :p
2020-09-22 15:17:42 felix Still thinking how best to handle putting something online.
2020-09-22 15:19:40 felix Might end up doing completely different pages for Gemini and web.
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2020-09-22 17:35:10 kevinsan felix: what are your ideas about putting things online?
2020-09-22 17:38:00 felix That's a very general question. :)
2020-09-22 17:41:01 kevinsan :) your statement was also very general
2020-09-22 17:41:27 kevinsan you make it sound like there might be an interesting conversation to be had about ways of getting stuff online
2020-09-22 17:41:53 felix Ah. No, I was thinking about a specific project.
2020-09-22 17:42:28 felix Which already has a web page, and it needs one for a side-project.
2020-09-22 17:42:54 felix But on Gemini it doesn't exist yet, so it makes sense to mirror the entire original page.
2020-09-22 17:43:18 felix Well, with the required changes.
2020-09-22 17:43:20 companion_cube is there a compiler from markdown to gemtext? :p
2020-09-22 17:43:37 kevinsan or move to gemini and mirror to html?
2020-09-22 17:44:04 ericonr companion_cube: I know about https://github.com/makeworld-the-better-one/md2gemini
2020-09-22 17:44:16 companion_cube that's sweet
2020-09-22 17:44:21 felix Isn't Markdown-to-Gemtext mostly removing stuff?
2020-09-22 17:44:51 companion_cube you also need to put URLs on their own lines
2020-09-22 17:44:56 felix kevinsan: well, I already have my websites, not going to break them now.
2020-09-22 17:48:10 kevinsan i'm wrestling with somthing right now - is tofu *by defualt* a hinderance or a gain at this point in gemini's evolution?
2020-09-22 17:49:06 kevinsan in other words, should we just ignore signatures of servers by default, unless specifically configured by the user to do otherwise?
2020-09-22 17:49:24 xj9 not depending on CA is a good thing i think
2020-09-22 17:49:33 kevinsan agree
2020-09-22 17:50:05 felix Some clients seem to handle expiry gracefully. Others less so.
2020-09-22 17:51:08 ericonr I have had little contact with this stuff, but it's a bit of security loss (assuming you trust the CA authorities) for decentralization gain
2020-09-22 17:51:36 ericonr so I think for gemini it should count as a benefit
2020-09-22 17:51:55 kevinsan it was drew devault's great little gmni fetcher code that made me think of this. The first version just fetched what I asked it for. The latest version fails and makes me add a signature to known_hosts, unless I use a flag.
2020-09-22 17:53:12 xj9 i generally don't trust CAs, i just have to or folks will get a big warning when they visit my website
2020-09-22 17:54:09 xj9 TOFU just means you make trust decisions on a per-host basis instead of delegating trust to a bunch of external orgs
2020-09-22 17:54:23 kevinsan agree again - i particularly don't trust the main backers of Let's Encrypt. I think their motivation is just centred around locking out external trackers so they can keep all the data to themselves
2020-09-22 17:55:19 kevinsan though I the general idea of a trusted authority is a good one, it should be up to me to decide if, who, and when I want to engage with trust.
2020-09-22 17:56:12 xj9 yes some kind of distributed CA could be interesting, based on user-delegated trust
2020-09-22 17:56:32 xj9 maybe an extension of TOFU?
2020-09-22 17:57:14 kevinsan the big problem (as always) is people wanting to own the relevant part of my computer (root CA's, root domains, resolver, etc.)
2020-09-22 17:59:43 kevinsan I suppose I would like gemini clients to, by default, be trusting of certificates, but with the option of being more stringent if I choose.
2020-09-22 17:59:44 kevinsan What I'm not sure about is whether this is a bad idea that encourages lax behaviour from the start.
2020-09-22 18:00:04 login i want to use certain CAs for certain tlds, and not for others
2020-09-22 18:00:28 oms if a certificate changes, it's 99.9999% of the time on gemini going to be someone tinkering with their configuration
2020-09-22 18:01:20 kevinsan omni: exactly, certificates have been a bit of a source of errors and confusion (because the whole subject is so complex)
2020-09-22 18:01:50 kevinsan login: totally - that should be an easy ask, yet for some inexplicable reason it's not.
2020-09-22 18:02:09 oms what's the threat model in the cases where someone MITMs you on gemini?
2020-09-22 18:02:18 kevinsan s/inexblicable/'inexplicable'/ :)
2020-09-22 18:04:33 kevinsan oms: the threat model is currently that an open port will sit dormant, waiting for the traffic that might hit my site, but probably won't :)
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2020-09-22 20:56:58 ericonr does gemini use unix or dos newlines?
2020-09-22 20:58:08 @tomasino dos in the header
2020-09-22 20:59:27 ericonr tomasino: and in gemtext?
2020-09-22 20:59:57 @tomasino the document, whether gemtext or otherwise, can be in whatever line endings you prefer
2020-09-22 21:00:23 ericonr I see, thanks
2020-09-22 21:00:26 @tomasino NP!
2020-09-22 22:07:11 mhj Did y'all see this? https://sr.ht/~icefox/scalar/
2020-09-22 22:07:26 mhj Also good evening all~
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2020-09-22 22:47:50 kevinsan mhj: what did you make of scalar? really don't like the idea of blobs for messages - kinda hostile when you can IRC with a telnet client.
2020-09-22 23:23:59 acdw oh shit the messages are blobs? oof
2020-09-22 23:24:02 acdw plaintext or DIE
2020-09-22 23:24:08 acdw brb, getting a tshirt of that
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2020-09-23 03:13:20 doppler how often do you REALLY IRC with a telnet client though
2020-09-23 03:14:33 doppler we've all done it once or twice but I'd be surprised if you said it was even close to a regular occurrence
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2020-09-23 07:16:53 kensanata Ohh... new firewall rules at the office? I'm back on IRC!
2020-09-23 07:43:15 mhj kevinsan: Ulta late reply - I didn't see that the messages were blobs at first. Not cool. Plaintext ftw indeed.
2020-09-23 07:49:21 mhj https://endeavouros.com/news/the-september-release-and-endeavouros-arm-arrived/ Might use this instead of Manjaro on my pbp
2020-09-23 07:51:44 @julienxx Hi geminauts
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2020-09-23 07:54:00 mhj Heyo heyo julienxx
2020-09-23 07:59:10 mhj It's super late here, so I'm gonna go back to bed lol
2020-09-23 08:01:22 @julienxx good night mhj :)
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2020-09-23 10:08:19 tsp Is there an open source http > gemini proxy?
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2020-09-23 13:09:53 mhj Heyo all, how're y'all today~
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2020-09-23 14:28:10 felix I love playing with the line types in gemtext.
2020-09-23 14:28:21 felix Making a page look good just from the alternance.
2020-09-23 15:49:33 mhj Heyo all, good morning~
2020-09-23 15:49:56 felix o/
2020-09-23 15:49:57 mhj Just contacted an advisor from my school about getting a technical writing cert
2020-09-23 15:50:07 felix Good luck!
2020-09-23 15:50:13 mhj Thanks!
2020-09-23 15:50:35 mhj How are ya felix ?
2020-09-23 15:50:48 felix Productive!
2020-09-23 15:51:50 felix Been porting a game to a new library binding, and also making web/gemini pages for an older game.
2020-09-23 15:52:00 mhj Cool!
2020-09-23 15:52:24 felix Wanna see?
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2020-09-23 15:55:03 mhj Sure!
2020-09-23 15:55:10 felix gemini://gemini.ctrl-c.club/~nttp/games/orion-tt/
2020-09-23 15:55:46 mhj OK, hold on a second, lemme get bombadillo going lol
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2020-09-23 16:00:47 felix Hello!
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2020-09-23 16:01:44 mhj That's cool :D
2020-09-23 16:01:58 mhj I will try it, just might be difficult on Nix
2020-09-23 16:02:04 mhj I'll try compiling it tho
2020-09-23 16:02:06 felix Thanks!
2020-09-23 16:02:11 mhj That worked for bombadillo
2020-09-23 16:02:41 felix BaCon itself compiles easily, you just need patience.
2020-09-23 16:05:04 mhj Nix might have a package for it, we'll see :D
2020-09-23 16:06:45 mhj Nope, no package for it, but... I'll try compiling it
2020-09-23 16:07:26 felix Good luck!
2020-09-23 16:07:35 felix And thanks for going through the trouble.
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2020-09-23 16:10:53 felix \o
2020-09-23 16:11:26 mhj No problem!
2020-09-23 16:15:44 mhj If I can't run it on here, I'll try my Raspberry Pi
2020-09-23 16:16:17 felix It's an x86_64 binary.
2020-09-23 16:16:44 felix And the Debian package for BaCon is also for x86.
2020-09-23 16:17:00 felix So you'd still have to compile the compiler.
2020-09-23 16:19:05 mhj Oh I know, no problem tho
2020-09-23 16:19:16 mhj It has instructions on doing that on the bacon site
2020-09-23 16:20:32 mhj BTW why did you decide to program in basic in the first place? I thought for most simple game development most people chose python nowadays? Just wondering. I'm not at all opposed to it, of course :D
2020-09-23 16:21:10 companion_cube I'd think most people go with unity/C#, but maybe that's for bigger games
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2020-09-23 16:25:17 felix I didn't start this decade though. Or last decade.
2020-09-23 16:25:21 felix Think 1991.
2020-09-23 16:25:46 mhj Ohhhh
2020-09-23 16:26:29 felix The ZX Spectrum was still being made.
2020-09-23 16:26:53 mhj Most of the BASIC stuff I remember was QBASIC in DOS :D
2020-09-23 16:27:16 mhj I didn't know that about Speccy
2020-09-23 16:27:19 felix Make that GW-Basic for me, but yeah. That too.
2020-09-23 16:28:03 mhj Cool
2020-09-23 16:28:22 rb100 ah, i love GW-Basic. never got used to QB without its line numbers
2020-09-23 16:28:44 mhj I think the most stuff I did QBASIC was give myself 99 lives in that Snake game lol
2020-09-23 16:28:56 felix :D
2020-09-23 16:29:12 felix Line-number Basic has a unique flavor all right.
2020-09-23 16:30:32 mhj I still have a copy of QBASIC I pull up in Dosbox every now and then
2020-09-23 16:30:56 felix Cool!
2020-09-23 16:31:48 rb100 i generate my blog using a static site generator written in GW-Basic
2020-09-23 16:31:56 rb100 though i haven't posted in a bit...
2020-09-23 16:32:02 felix Really? :)
2020-09-23 16:34:44 rb100 yep - jeff.rainbow-100.com - and there's a link to the source at the bottom of the page
2020-09-23 16:34:54 rb100 it's called GW-Blog
2020-09-23 16:36:04 rb100 uses textile markup (i know most people use markdown...)
2020-09-23 16:37:22 felix Eh. That's turning into a monoculture.
2020-09-23 16:38:42 mhj https://github.com/charliesome/doslinux Speaking of DOS
2020-09-23 16:38:52 felix Right, I saw!
2020-09-23 16:39:18 felix May I ask why struggle to run Mastodon on a Pi when Pleroma is known to be light enough?
2020-09-23 16:40:07 xfnw mastodon needs a lot more ram iirc
2020-09-23 16:41:07 admicos mastodon cannot even compile its js on my 1gb ram + 2gb swap vps
2020-09-23 16:41:12 rb100 i run a mastodon instance on 2 raspberry pis
2020-09-23 16:41:17 admicos after that it works ok enough
2020-09-23 16:41:34 admicos mastodon is a resource hog
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2020-09-23 16:41:45 rb100 one for redis and postgres, one for mastodon's tasks
2020-09-23 16:44:31 felix Right! You need two of them just to have it barely running.
2020-09-23 16:44:45 felix Well, guess you proved it's possible after all.
2020-09-23 16:45:20 rb100 still needed to compile the js on a 4GB rpi4, though, then transfer the product to a pi3 where it runs now
2020-09-23 16:45:41 rb100 its a nightmare, though. nobody should do it
2020-09-23 16:45:48 oms >compile the js
2020-09-23 16:45:50 oms what a world
2020-09-23 16:46:45 rb100 is that what it was doing? i forget now... some process in the setup crashed on a 1gb rpi
2020-09-23 16:47:36 rb100 it was on this rpi, but i blew it away after i was done, apparently...
2020-09-23 16:54:44 felix Hence my question. ;)
2020-09-23 16:54:51 felix oms: I know, right?
2020-09-23 16:55:20 felix And to think people make increasingly clever JS interpreters when the main performance bottleneck is crap like that.
2020-09-23 16:55:49 felix Running megabytes of it that does way too much on an already overburdened platform.
2020-09-23 16:56:28 ericonr rb100: could be minifying the JS
2020-09-23 16:56:32 ericonr that can get complicated
2020-09-23 16:57:21 rb100 i doubt it since it's the server-side js that's the problem. why minify that?
2020-09-23 16:59:14 ericonr :) no idea
2020-09-23 17:00:09 felix Maybe it's written in TypeScript, or Coffeescript, or something.
2020-09-23 17:00:25 felix Either way, yuck.
2020-09-23 17:00:59 rb100 it was during one of the "bundle install" or "yarn install" steps, i forget which
2020-09-23 17:01:08 felix And to think the creator of Duktape says the interpreter is slow.
2020-09-23 17:01:55 felix It runs JS as if it was native code. You know that feeling?
2020-09-23 17:02:43 felix You can usually tell. Interpreted code is sluggish. Makes sense, right?
2020-09-23 17:04:19 felix Apparently, a lot of that is incidental overhead.
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2020-09-23 17:16:54 admicos it happens after yarn install when running precompile
2020-09-23 17:17:05 admicos it's react so it has to parse and compile all the jsx stuff
2020-09-23 17:17:06 ffuentes hi
2020-09-23 17:17:10 admicos \o
2020-09-23 17:17:49 admicos i have to use NODE_OPTIONS="--max-old-space-size=2048" for masto to use swap when doing it otherwise it just goes oom
2020-09-23 17:17:57 ffuentes do you have or know a gemini client that's available for Windows and that's already built (not for compiling)?
2020-09-23 17:18:55 felix Geminaut?
2020-09-23 17:19:18 felix Kristall?
2020-09-23 17:19:40 felix https://kristall.random-projects.net/
2020-09-23 17:20:47 ffuentes Geminaut triggers Windows Defender bad
2020-09-23 17:21:35 ffuentes I'm gonna try Kristall
2020-09-23 17:23:19 ffuentes Thanks Felix. It worked!
2020-09-23 17:23:34 ffuentes it triggered Defender but at least it didn't delete the .exe like the other one
2020-09-23 17:29:44 felix Yay.
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2020-09-23 18:28:43 lukee o/ space-cadets
2020-09-23 18:33:40 lukee hi ffuentes: currently there is no installer for GemiNaut and the binaries are unsigned. I think that is what is upsetting the anti-virus products. Needless to say it is a false positive.
2020-09-23 18:34:06 lukee next version of GemiNaut has a proper installer and I am investigating options for signing the binaries as well.
2020-09-23 18:37:07 lukee those both should help I think. In the mean time, you can either compile GemiNaut yourself or add to the anti-virus white list. Its pretty annoying TBH
2020-09-23 18:40:26 idf i guess the combination of unsigned binary + networking to an unknown port triggers AVs
2020-09-23 18:41:50 lukee and the wrong phase of the moon
2020-09-23 18:43:24 lukee AV products have this annoying assumption that software apps that are not in mass-usage are by nature suspicious. They can trigger without even running the app.
2020-09-23 18:43:37 idf that too
2020-09-23 18:45:15 lukee well I suppose the weird shit people try to install on their machines over the last 20 odd years must have honed this behaviour as the only way to protect "ordinary" end users
2020-09-23 18:48:17 idf download this epic toolbar with 200 emoticons NOW RIGHT >>HERE DOWNLOAD<<
2020-09-23 18:49:15 lukee This website has detected your drivers are not up to date: DOWNLOAD to perform a driver scan now!
2020-09-23 18:49:59 lukee sigh
2020-09-23 18:50:03 xj9 meanwhile in finland
2020-09-23 19:03:55 ffuentes I've installed stuff like that before but never got the executable deleted by Windows before
2020-09-23 19:10:31 lukee yes its pretty annoying when that happens
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2020-09-23 23:53:18 tsp I wish GUS would show me the date each host was added. The latest 10 hosts means I have to keep checking every day or I'll miss one.
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2020-09-24 02:46:20 ℹ Notice(cosmic.tilde.chat): Creation time of #gemini changed from Thu Sep 24 2020 02:45:58 to Sat Aug 31 2019 22:41:57
2020-09-24 02:46:20 ℹ Mode #gemini [-ont tomasino] by cosmic.tilde.chat
2020-09-24 02:46:20 ℹ Mode #gemini [+nrt] by team.tilde.chat
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2020-09-24 02:46:20 ℹ Mode #gemini [+o ben] by team.tilde.chat
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2020-09-24 02:46:20 ℹ Mode #gemini [+o julienxx] by team.tilde.chat
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2020-09-24 02:46:38 ℹ Channel created on Sat, 31 Aug 2019 22:41:57
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2020-09-24 03:25:10 ℹ Notice(cosmic.tilde.chat): Creation time of #gemini changed from Thu Sep 24 2020 03:24:59 to Sat Aug 31 2019 22:41:57
2020-09-24 03:25:10 ℹ Mode #gemini [-ont tomasino] by cosmic.tilde.chat
2020-09-24 03:25:10 ℹ Mode #gemini [+nrt] by thunix.tilde.chat
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2020-09-24 03:25:10 ℹ Mode #gemini [+oo ben julienxx] by thunix.tilde.chat
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2020-09-24 03:25:10 ℹ thunix.tilde.chat has changed topic for #gemini to "Gemini (protocol) enthusiasts - gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | https://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | gopher://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | publically logged in gemspace"
2020-09-24 03:25:39 ℹ Channel created on Sat, 31 Aug 2019 22:41:57
2020-09-24 05:41:54 rmgr That would be rad
2020-09-24 06:24:30 rmgr Does anybody else find themselves using gemtext for non-gemini related things?
2020-09-24 06:25:39 rmgr I have the vim syntax highlighting set up on my raspberry pi so I just have a folder for random notes and stuff now, I find the markup is just enough to provide structure but keeps out of the way
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2020-09-24 12:07:10 kensanata Another year in this orc village... gemini://transjovian.org/anthe/page/Underforth
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2020-09-24 13:30:30 mhj Heyo gemnauticals
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2020-09-24 14:11:29 kevinsan doppler: you're right, it's rare to use telnet/netcat/etc to IRC, but e.g. it allowed me to write the simplest CGI code to send messages to IRC via my Gemini clients, and a binary format would have needed a lot more effort.
2020-09-24 14:31:31 doppler curious. did you write a Gemini IRC client?
2020-09-24 14:42:02 kevinsan doppler: no, I mean I can make a gemini request that results in a message in #gemini on IRC.
2020-09-24 14:43:12 ericonr kevinsan: are you using client certs for that?
2020-09-24 14:44:05 kevinsan no, just a secret token at the start of the input. client certs would be better, it's just that not all clients support them yet.
2020-09-24 14:46:19 kevinsan it's really simple. I'm going through a bouncer, so a lot of the nickserv stuff is already done. Direct via the IRC server requires a few more steps. The simple variant was written up here gemini://gemini.susa.net/telnet_znc_to_irc.gmi
2020-09-24 14:48:43 ericonr would be nice if the server returned a page showing the current conversation as well :o
2020-09-24 14:48:47 ericonr in the gemini context
2020-09-24 14:51:11 doppler kevinsan: right, and if you took that concept to a certain extreme you'd end up with a Gemini IRC client. :)
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2020-09-24 15:07:36 kevinsan ericonr: I have that already gemini://gemini.susa.net/cgi-bin/gemini-irc?sort=desc
2020-09-24 15:09:29 kevinsan doppler: exactly. the beauty of plain text is there virtually no barrier to entry. I've been using generic Unix tools that are like 40+ years old.
2020-09-24 15:10:37 doppler yeah :)
2020-09-24 15:11:49 doppler I'm not here to trash-talk plain text; it has its strengths
2020-09-24 15:12:05 doppler I've just also seen its limitations
2020-09-24 15:12:25 companion_cube I mean, gemini is also kind of text? :p
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2020-09-24 15:24:42 doppler I'd say so
2020-09-24 15:25:05 doppler we were comparing to a non-text chat protocol
2020-09-24 15:25:15 doppler not to gemini :)
2020-09-24 15:27:44 ericonr kevinsan: that's super cool!
2020-09-24 15:30:57 kevinsan ericonr: it's really simple 15 lines of bash and 50 lines of awk - plain text rulez :)
2020-09-24 15:31:12 kevinsan https://gitlab.com/ksangeelee/gemini/-/blob/master/content/cgi-bin/gemini-irc and https://gitlab.com/ksangeelee/gemini/-/blob/master/content/cgi-bin/parse_irc.awk
2020-09-24 15:31:17 companion_cube for a chat protocol, being line based definitely isn't right
2020-09-24 15:32:07 kevinsan do you mean it lacks structure of conversation threads?
2020-09-24 15:33:08 companion_cube I mean, \n is very bad framing :)
2020-09-24 15:33:30 companion_cube a more modern chat system would at least use some form of basic serialization
2020-09-24 15:33:47 companion_cube (like icefox's stuff, forgot the name, it came up recently)
2020-09-24 15:33:51 companion_cube https://sr.ht/~icefox/scalar/
2020-09-24 15:34:25 ericonr kevinsan: thanks c:
2020-09-24 15:38:16 doppler companion_cube: you could frame with \n if you could encode \n as e.g. an escaped string
2020-09-24 15:38:28 companion_cube still sucks super bad, sorry :)
2020-09-24 15:38:58 companion_cube a simple, still text based way of doing that could be to send Bencode records
2020-09-24 15:39:10 companion_cube it's trivial to parse (really trivial) and it's binary safe
2020-09-24 15:40:00 doppler fair enough
2020-09-24 15:40:38 kevinsan companion_cube: what are the benefits?
2020-09-24 15:41:05 companion_cube being able to write multi-line messages, for a start; simple separation of text and metadata
2020-09-24 15:41:05 doppler binary-safe transport and possibly easier parsing
2020-09-24 15:41:19 companion_cube and easier printing
2020-09-24 15:41:23 companion_cube no need to escape at all
2020-09-24 15:41:31 oms galaxy brain: \r is a newline in a message, \n a newline in the protocol
2020-09-24 15:41:58 doppler and what if you want to encode CR in your message
2020-09-24 15:42:11 oms don't
2020-09-24 15:43:15 companion_cube ircv3 has to juggle to shove more metada in messages
2020-09-24 15:43:18 companion_cube with bencode it'd be trivial
2020-09-24 15:44:37 ericonr I've written a small dumb client, and added parsing to it, so it knows what links are and can (kinda) use them C: https://asciinema.org/a/XmZlUXlI7MiZfPr04mMyAd1Wl
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2020-09-24 18:37:27 xj9 based 58 encoded tab separated type-length-value format
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2020-09-24 20:49:00 epoch I have a gemini URL that returns a multipart/alternative response
2020-09-24 20:56:41 epoch might make it say it is message/rfc822 so the body contains the Content-Type: multipart/alternative so that the boundary isn't part of the protocol
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2020-09-25 11:42:42 mhj Morning gemnauts~
2020-09-25 11:43:22 mhj gemini://earthlight.xyz:1965/blog/4-tool-dependance.gmi
2020-09-25 11:43:30 mhj My formatting still sucks...
2020-09-25 11:43:39 mhj Yay nano and hard wrap lol
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2020-09-25 12:25:22 kevinsan well, speaking of longevity of tools, mhj, you could use vim for soft-wrap :)
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2020-09-25 12:43:51 mhj This is true kevinsan lol
2020-09-25 12:45:17 kevinsan did you ever read Drew DeVault's article on browser scope - scary numbers, for sure. https://drewdevault.com/2020/03/18/Reckless-limitless-scope.html
2020-09-25 12:48:42 mhj Ooh, I like this article... thanks!
2020-09-25 12:50:48 boringcactus oh hey, drew posted on mastodon "So when is someone writing a gemini -> mastodon portal" 10 hours ago and i spent the next eight hours building https://git.sr.ht/~boringcactus/gemifedi
2020-09-25 12:52:10 boringcactus the code is unforgivably awful rn but if it stops being that at some point today i'll throw a demo up somewhere
2020-09-25 13:01:18 kevinsan ha - ~30% if this person's readme file is apologies for their code. wow, worse than me!
2020-09-25 13:01:56 kevinsan nobody should ever feel the need to apologise for GPL code. it's a gift to the world! :)
2020-09-25 13:02:47 kevinsan and I just realise that I am replying *to* the person, boringcactus, who apologises profusely for their code :) Thanks!
2020-09-25 13:04:44 boringcactus look, everything's hard coded and nothing's commented and i'm basically disabling most of TLS because nothing handles TLS client certs gracefully
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2020-09-25 13:06:11 ℹ Mode #gemini [+oo julienxx ben] by hub.tilde.chat
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2020-09-25 13:07:40 kevinsan boringcactus: it still has more utility than no code, so a net gain for the world, no?
2020-09-25 13:08:08 boringcactus see there's an argument to be made that bad, probably-insecure code is worse than no code
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2020-09-25 13:10:22 kevinsan my answer would be, only if it claims to be otherwise. in that light, i suppose a disclaimer makes sense!
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2020-09-25 13:43:43 @julienxx https://cheapskatesguide.org/articles/gemini.html
2020-09-25 13:50:38 felix Yay, we're getting more notice.
2020-09-25 13:59:17 tomasino Hey! I got a mention
2020-09-25 14:01:42 tomasino Ahh, they didn't find the bundled Kristall either
2020-09-25 14:02:02 tomasino I don't think there are links to those on the GitHub page. Only the website.
2020-09-25 14:06:26 felix They also don't seem to know how to, wait for it, install software from their distro's repositories.
2020-09-25 14:07:19 felix Like, seriously? What are you doing on the official Qt website to grab a Linux package?
2020-09-25 14:07:40 xfnw lol
2020-09-25 14:07:40 felix And I think the Kristall website is linked from the GitHub page?
2020-09-25 14:07:46 boringcactus i mean i'd be prepared to assume Kristall isn't packaged in the average distro
2020-09-25 14:08:01 felix No, it probably isn't yet.
2020-09-25 14:08:12 CommunistWolf I read it as if they were on windows
2020-09-25 14:08:14 felix But it does have a proper website, which does offer an AppImage.
2020-09-25 14:08:27 CommunistWolf kinda niche, I grant you
2020-09-25 14:08:27 felix "I also tried installing Kristall on my Linux machine"
2020-09-25 14:08:42 boringcactus and maybe you already know how to `apt install libqt9-dev` or whatever the hell, but "if you don't know that then don't use gemini lol" seems. like a bold claim
2020-09-25 14:08:55 CommunistWolf ahh
2020-09-25 14:09:04 felix Sure, it should be easier.
2020-09-25 14:09:19 felix But how easy, dammit? Easier than "download this executable and run it?"
2020-09-25 14:09:56 felix Some projects don't *have* proper homepages. Or releases on GitHub. And when they do it's not obvious, because GitHub.
2020-09-25 14:10:04 felix But this one *does*.
2020-09-25 14:11:04 oms to be fair, my experience building kristall was somewhat painful even knowing how to install libraries from my distro's repositories
2020-09-25 14:11:50 oms I didn't know much about qt and had to figure out how to map its dependencies into debian package names
2020-09-25 14:12:28 oms it's not just libqt5-dev
2020-09-25 14:15:08 felix I guess!
2020-09-25 14:15:32 felix And the appimage is... large. But it works, and is lightweight.
2020-09-25 14:17:16 oms derp, BUILDING.md has the list of packages I wanted right there
2020-09-25 14:23:08 tomasino To be fair I couldn't get Kristall to install with the Ubuntu qt package
2020-09-25 14:23:34 tomasino I installed qt fully in the beginning. Now I use the appimage
2020-09-25 14:25:08 felix Yeah, there's a reason I make a point of reducing dependencies.
2020-09-25 14:25:19 felix Or at least keeping them *simple*.
2020-09-25 14:25:35 felix Python isn't a small or light dependency, but it's just one.
2020-09-25 14:25:45 tomasino If you know how to manage pip
2020-09-25 14:25:56 tomasino And can navigate python 2 and 3
2020-09-25 14:25:57 felix No. I mean, *just* Python.
2020-09-25 14:26:07 felix It has enough crap in the standard library.
2020-09-25 14:26:27 felix Windows install kits even come with Tkinter.
2020-09-25 14:27:13 tomasino I like appimages for these bigger things
2020-09-25 14:27:19 tomasino Kdenlive
2020-09-25 14:27:29 tomasino Even discord
2020-09-25 14:27:51 felix As for pip, it drives me crazy. People keep saying, "run pip install blah blah". Um, no. I'm on Linux. Tons of packages are in apt-get.
2020-09-25 14:28:13 felix Slightly older versions? Yes, for a good reason!
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2020-09-25 15:06:19 felix o/
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2020-09-25 15:22:08 lukee huh the article about some poor chap trying to get a Gemini client working is a study in the modern frustrations of installing software that is not perfectly packaged and published through your favourite app store (TM(
2020-09-25 15:22:57 lukee (maybe wrong assumption it is written by a chap, my bad)
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2020-09-25 15:24:01 lukee Its nice to get some more readers coming to Geministan
2020-09-25 15:24:56 lukee but it shows the long way we have to come to make Gemini accessible to a non-tech audience
2020-09-25 15:27:53 lukee ...and that is just for visiting Gemini servers as a reader
2020-09-25 15:29:05 lukee I take my hat off to gemlog.blue and flounder for lowering the barriers to entry for writers at least, by providing a web editor front end
2020-09-25 15:29:29 felix Indeed. We have a way to go. All software does, but ours is immature.
2020-09-25 15:29:58 felix Still. Kristall comes as a single, stand-alone executable. So do Bombadillo and Amfora.
2020-09-25 15:30:14 felix You really can just download and run.
2020-09-25 15:30:28 lukee you have to be very persistently stubborn and fearless of technology to join the community
2020-09-25 15:31:36 lukee I love all those clients, but trying to get them past the anti-virus gatekeepers that protect you from the big bad world is a challenge
2020-09-25 15:32:52 felix That's true for a lot of software these days.
2020-09-25 15:32:54 lukee and command line apps presume a high level of technical ability that we take for granted
2020-09-25 15:33:15 felix Antivirus software seems made to drive people towards official app stores.
2020-09-25 15:33:48 felix And do they? The friendliest UI ever designed, bar none, was that of Norton Commander.
2020-09-25 15:34:08 felix It literally has no equal. It's perfect.
2020-09-25 15:39:09 ericonr lukee: command line apps are more about the initial barrier to entry than anything
2020-09-25 15:39:29 lukee as a terminal application it is v good. But terminal apps have a very particular kind of power user audience in mind
2020-09-25 15:39:47 ericonr people aren't pre disposed to reading man pages or help output or what have you, so it's very easy to dislike command line stuff at first glance
2020-09-25 15:40:34 felix And apps that force you to do that need work. Definitely.
2020-09-25 15:40:42 felix I needed two attempts to learn Micro.
2020-09-25 15:41:07 lukee I think I agree, and these are old arguments about UI design. But for whatever reason they will be perceived as inaccessible to a wider audience
2020-09-25 15:42:58 felix And if I get started about the reason why, it'll turn into a flamewar.
2020-09-25 15:43:01 lukee I'd love to see better usability for content authoring for Gemini that could be done within the client, not requiring a web front end or command line Fu
2020-09-25 15:43:34 felix Yeah. It should be relatively easy, too, compared to other formats.
2020-09-25 15:44:06 lukee if we can simplify the reading as radically as we have, we should do the same for authoring
2020-09-25 15:44:59 tomasino geminicities.com when?
2020-09-25 15:45:28 tomasino it should have an app that's just a login & authoring portal in disguise
2020-09-25 15:45:32 lukee hmm, but that still doesnt solve the authoring problem
2020-09-25 15:46:03 lukee For me, it should be within the concept of Gemini, not out of band
2020-09-25 15:46:46 lukee otherwise we are still like the web. In that the gatekeepers decide who and how you can write. And the vast majority can only read
2020-09-25 15:46:51 felix Even the web lost that aspect long ago. :(
2020-09-25 15:47:38 lukee No, for example you can host a simple wiki and edit it within itself just using a browser
2020-09-25 15:48:37 tomasino i don't see that gemini needs to have a way to author itself in the protocol itself. It's a very nice, tight, read-based protocol as is.
2020-09-25 15:48:42 felix Sure, but have you seen wiki markup? Even I got fed up with it after a while.
2020-09-25 15:49:01 lukee but we have fixed the markup problem!
2020-09-25 15:49:44 lukee tomasino - its just that at the moment, we have shifted the authoring problem somewhere else
2020-09-25 15:50:16 tomasino i'm okay with that
2020-09-25 15:50:20 lukee Gemini is a pleasure to read, but to write you need to know: commandline+ssh+scp or use a web front end
2020-09-25 15:50:47 lukee so its quite asymmetric. Fine for nerds like us, not great for a wider user base
2020-09-25 15:52:09 tomasino if authoring needs a simple solution we can think about that and create one. I don't think it belongs in the reading protocol.
2020-09-25 15:52:21 tomasino it complicates it tremendously
2020-09-25 15:52:56 felix But we have a companion protocol for posting, don't we.
2020-09-25 15:53:00 lukee not necessarily, its just we know people have different tolerances for extension
2020-09-25 15:53:45 felix And Gemini is resistant to extension by design.
2020-09-25 15:53:48 lukee felix: yes there are some proposals, but they are somewhat complex IMO
2020-09-25 15:54:03 tomasino i feel like trying to bundle writing into gemini is the most webby thing we could do to it. why not think fresh. What about a service that explicitly listens for TLS signed content with a header that's a resource path and then body copy and bam, now it's on your system
2020-09-25 15:54:37 tomasino kinda like gemini in reverse
2020-09-25 15:55:24 lukee it would be a start, but I'd want the server to hold the content source for me
2020-09-25 15:55:33 lukee so you could round trip it
2020-09-25 15:56:38 tomasino if you point it to the same path it would do that, wouldn't it?
2020-09-25 15:56:49 tomasino gemini reads from X, this other thing can write to X
2020-09-25 15:57:00 tomasino but it's not glued. doesn't HAVE to write to X
2020-09-25 15:57:08 tomasino maybe you write to a staging area and moderate
2020-09-25 15:57:15 tomasino maybe you use it to push up private notes
2020-09-25 15:57:29 tomasino maybe you are filling in content another way only need read-only gemini
2020-09-25 15:58:05 tomasino complimentary protocols that are good at the one thing seems simpler. and people can build clients that do only one, or both
2020-09-25 15:58:09 oms I was planning on doing something with gemini that involves pushing content, and was thinking of doing something where you submit a url in your request, and the server pulls it
2020-09-25 15:58:22 oms it requires the author having access to a server themselves, but it's still a crude transfer
2020-09-25 15:58:29 tomasino yeah, that was discussed in the mailing list
2020-09-25 15:58:36 tomasino it's quite simple if you can temp publish
2020-09-25 15:59:51 tomasino anyway, that's my 2 cents
2020-09-25 16:00:54 oms if you can do that, it's only one small step to adding to a client a dumb server that only needs to serve one file for a few seconds and quit
2020-09-25 16:01:19 oms (except for NAT, etc.)
2020-09-25 16:01:22 tomasino if you don't have NAT issues or firewalls it w...
2020-09-25 16:01:24 tomasino yeah
2020-09-25 16:01:25 tomasino hehe
2020-09-25 16:01:28 tomasino TOR to the rescue
2020-09-25 16:01:31 tomasino Tor*
2020-09-25 16:05:39 oms where in the mailing list is this?
2020-09-25 16:06:51 oms nvm - "Uploading Gemini content" ?
2020-09-25 16:09:17 lukee the model I have in mind is the original https://wiki.c2.com/
2020-09-25 16:09:38 lukee it was so simple but it effectively launched the whole concept of in-page editing
2020-09-25 16:09:49 lukee that we take for granted now
2020-09-25 16:11:50 lukee So you have some content on a server (possibly shared with other users). From within your client, if you are authorised, you can edit the page. Others see your changes. It grows as a collaborative space
2020-09-25 16:12:30 lukee the current version uses client side JS, so it sort of shifted into something else, but for a long time it just worked
2020-09-25 16:25:16 felix That we ever needed wikis at all is an indictment of how the web's ideals were betrayed soon after it launched.
2020-09-25 16:25:34 felix The first web browser was also an editor. They were all supposed to be.
2020-09-25 16:25:59 felix HTML is designed that way. HTTP has a PUT method.
2020-09-25 16:27:19 xfnw what does PUT do?
2020-09-25 16:31:04 lukee you dont need PUT when you have POST
2020-09-25 16:31:57 lukee so it was a bit redundant. And hardly any clients implemented it, so it is just there as a vestige of a former time
2020-09-25 16:32:33 felix Yes, you do. The semantics are different. And isn't that funny.
2020-09-25 16:32:51 felix Many clients didn't bother with an editor either.
2020-09-25 16:33:02 lukee xfnw: see https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTTP/Methods
2020-09-25 16:33:04 felix Then it turned out we did need a read-write web after all.
2020-09-25 16:33:54 lukee felix: yes, funny that :)
2020-09-25 16:34:29 felix Oh and by the way: then we needed to invent WebDAV.
2020-09-25 16:34:52 lukee yeah. It turned out we just needed GET and POST with parameters
2020-09-25 16:34:56 felix Which mostly brought back into the limelight some methods that HTTP already had.
2020-09-25 16:35:23 lukee one idempotent and one non-idempotent method
2020-09-25 16:35:42 felix Sure, just like a carpenter only needs a screwdriver and a hammer.
2020-09-25 16:36:07 lukee well, as someone who works with wood, I can tell you, you can get a long way with a saw and a chisel
2020-09-25 16:36:54 lukee in Gemini, we just have a screwdriver! :)
2020-09-25 16:42:02 lukee even Gopher, bless its heart, had a non-idempotent "post/put" method
2020-09-25 16:44:10 felix And when people try to use the screwdriver as a chisel, we tell them they shouldn't need a chisel?
2020-09-25 16:45:22 lukee but, if you sharpen the screwdriver, and close your eyes and pretend?
2020-09-25 16:46:32 lukee And the other end of the screwdriver, if you hit it very hard on something maybe the nail will go in eventually
2020-09-25 16:47:35 lukee These tool metaphors are always fun.
2020-09-25 16:49:09 lukee I think it has to come back to what is the overall concept for Gemini. The concept of operations, the use case, the space of application.
2020-09-25 16:50:00 felix People want more from it than it's designed to do.
2020-09-25 16:50:01 lukee and for me, reading should never standalone without writing. Fundamental democratic point of principle.
2020-09-25 16:50:41 felix And that's why I keep telling people that my favorite e-book reader is Sigil. ;)
2020-09-25 16:50:56 lukee what is Sigil?
2020-09-25 16:51:31 lukee ok, found it https://sigil-ebook.com/get/
2020-09-25 16:53:03 lukee And anyway, what Gemini is designed to do, is whatever we design it to do. Its not handed down from God to Moses on a tablet of stone
2020-09-25 17:27:20 ▬▬▶ baschdel has joined #gemini
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2020-09-25 19:11:51 ehmry has quit (quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.)
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2020-09-25 19:28:34 boringcactus i mean. from what i can tell, Gemini is designed as a response to the application-platform side of HTML making the document-platform side of HTML really bloated and difficult to implement and with massive privacy issues, and being Just A Document Platform is a little bit at odds with having integrated authorship support
2020-09-25 19:40:05 lukee yes certainly Gemini is a counter-reaction to the complexity of the web. I hope we can find a solution for publishing that is in the spirit of the radical simplicity of Gemini. At the moment to write for Gemini, you either have to stand up your own server and become a sysadmin, or fall back to using the web
2020-09-25 19:41:10 acdw I think really all that needs to be done is a client + server implementation where basically, you'd read a post, hit "R", and drop into a text editor, then save and post to your own space. This would be easily possible with elpher + gemini-write + titan
2020-09-25 19:41:17 lukee ok, maybe you can get a user account on someone else's Unix box. But still this is a rare set of skills in the population at large
2020-09-25 19:41:19 acdw just need more servers to implement somehintg
2020-09-25 19:42:50 ericonr deploying pages with git seems like a good idea to me :P
2020-09-25 19:42:56 lukee yes acdw, you're right. I like the idea of titan - but not the design as such, but I should probably stop bleating and implement something
2020-09-25 19:43:15 lukee ericonr: ha ha :)
2020-09-25 19:43:36 acdw yeah I haven't realy looked into it at all, but I have no better ideas either ;)
2020-09-25 19:43:41 acdw so I want to write something up
2020-09-25 19:43:49 tomasino that's how things happen
2020-09-25 19:44:08 acdw yes indeed!
2020-09-25 19:44:15 ⚡ lukee checks the number of hours in a day
2020-09-25 19:45:07 tomasino but while we're on the subject of writing something up, how's everyone doing on non-gemini-related content on gemini?
2020-09-25 19:45:42 acdw great, *I* think
2020-09-25 19:45:47 acdw at least, I'm pumpin it out
2020-09-25 19:45:49 acdw so
2020-09-25 19:45:52 acdw you?
2020-09-25 19:45:54 lukee that sounds great. It is the thing we all have in common :-/
2020-09-25 19:46:00 tomasino i have a 4th superman in draft
2020-09-25 19:46:21 acdw noice
2020-09-25 19:46:24 tomasino it's a toughy
2020-09-25 19:46:28 lukee I try a few provocations here and there :)
2020-09-25 19:46:33 tomasino it got preachy and i backtracked
2020-09-25 19:46:37 tomasino it's dancing a political line
2020-09-25 19:46:42 acdw ooooh
2020-09-25 19:46:48 acdw it *is* an election year
2020-09-25 19:46:54 tomasino all years are election years
2020-09-25 19:46:59 acdw haha yes
2020-09-25 19:47:03 acdw i suppose so
2020-09-25 19:47:04 tomasino :D
2020-09-25 19:47:49 tomasino i'm still searching for the right title
2020-09-25 19:47:53 tomasino i think that'll help me bring it all together
2020-09-25 19:48:30 acdw Superman 4: the Quickening
2020-09-25 19:48:40 lukee try the IChing for a suggestion?
2020-09-25 19:49:13 tomasino in essence it's about the question of what happens when you have an immortal being that's impervious to anything take charge. How he is a product of the ethical upbringing of his time, and how to have that frozen for eternity as the defacto "rule" would become a distopia almost immediately
2020-09-25 19:49:30 lukee cool
2020-09-25 19:49:44 tomasino oh, i should see if i can get that running on team. i think the server it's using lets you run cgi's in ~ folders, right?
2020-09-25 19:49:51 acdw tomasino: I think that's called "God Emperor of Dune"
2020-09-25 19:49:56 acdw :P
2020-09-25 19:50:00 tomasino yeah, kinda!! but even that was just 4,000 years
2020-09-25 19:50:03 lukee how could an immortal being really comprehend morality though?
2020-09-25 19:50:04 acdw oh no way
2020-09-25 19:50:32 acdw tomasino: RE: getting "that" running on team, you talking about titan?
2020-09-25 19:50:33 lukee its like my cat trying to comprehend how the cat food gets in the tin
2020-09-25 19:50:36 acdw lol
2020-09-25 19:50:45 tomasino I-Ching
2020-09-25 19:50:59 acdw oh yeah!
2020-09-25 19:51:10 acdw OH OH I get it now
2020-09-25 19:51:16 acdw Dunno on the server on team
2020-09-25 19:51:21 lukee your I-Ching app went down with your old gem space?
2020-09-25 19:51:32 tomasino yeah
2020-09-25 19:52:12 acdw :(
2020-09-25 19:52:30 acdw CGI is supported on team tho!
2020-09-25 19:52:32 tomasino i mean, the meat of the code is on github
2020-09-25 19:52:46 acdw you need a shebang and +x
2020-09-25 19:52:58 acdw https://portal.mozz.us/gemini/tilde.team/wiki/gemini.md
2020-09-25 19:53:10 acdw gemini://tilde.team/wiki/gemini.md
2020-09-25 19:53:14 tomasino easy peasy, then
2020-09-25 19:53:26 tomasino https://github.com/jamestomasino/iching
2020-09-25 19:53:32 acdw noice
2020-09-25 19:53:34 tomasino i just need to remember what i did to run it as a CGI
2020-09-25 19:53:38 tomasino i tweaked some stuff
2020-09-25 19:53:41 acdw oh tomasino: nice tomasino.is, by the way
2020-09-25 19:53:44 acdw supercool
2020-09-25 19:53:47 tomasino :D
2020-09-25 19:53:58 tomasino only the best websites out of me
2020-09-25 19:54:54 lukee can I express a lack of comprehension what it is for?
2020-09-25 19:55:08 tomasino https://tomasino.is/amazing
2020-09-25 19:55:20 tomasino https://tomasino.is/lazy
2020-09-25 19:55:47 lukee ah that makes more sense. I just went to the root and got a random one
2020-09-25 19:55:57 tomasino yeah, that's what it was originally. just rando
2020-09-25 19:56:04 tomasino but then i added this path thingy to select one!
2020-09-25 19:56:27 tomasino i think i'm gonna add a test to see if the first part of the path is an "a" on "an" and make it read out Tomasino is a .... XXXX
2020-09-25 19:56:35 lukee https://tomasino.is/confounding/
2020-09-25 19:57:11 tomasino :D!
2020-09-25 19:57:21 tomasino i've been using it for reactions all over the place
2020-09-25 19:57:48 acdw great idea tbh
2020-09-25 19:57:49 lukee https://tomasino.is/underspecified/
2020-09-25 19:58:04 tomasino did you see my stupid code for it? it's soooooo dumb
2020-09-25 19:58:16 lukee nope
2020-09-25 19:58:29 tomasino https://ttm.sh/hqy.txt
2020-09-25 19:58:30 acdw are you just paying a guy to look up the definition and type it in *really* fast?
2020-09-25 19:58:41 tomasino haha, yes!
2020-09-25 19:58:45 acdw oh nice lol
2020-09-25 19:58:52 acdw I just need a cool domain now
2020-09-25 19:58:54 tomasino that was my joke about ben. There is no tildeverse. Just ben on netcat replying to everything really fast
2020-09-25 19:59:00 acdw hahahahahhhaha
2020-09-25 19:59:17 acdw ben can type that's for sure
2020-09-25 19:59:20 tomasino you want 1338.ninja ?
2020-09-25 19:59:23 tomasino it's leet++
2020-09-25 19:59:31 tomasino i bought it for no reason and i have no plans
2020-09-25 19:59:36 acdw oh lol
2020-09-25 19:59:42 acdw i was like ... it's parked
2020-09-25 19:59:49 acdw idk what you'd have on there
2020-09-25 19:59:54 ⚡ ben fast type
2020-09-25 20:00:13 acdw .... another tilde
2020-09-25 20:00:15 acdw obvs
2020-09-25 20:00:32 tomasino i was thinking about putting only stupid code things up there
2020-09-25 20:00:37 acdw YES
2020-09-25 20:00:44 tomasino like a "submit your gloriously bad coding ideas here"
2020-09-25 20:00:48 tomasino we're super-leet
2020-09-25 20:00:49 acdw pop a gitea instance, and ONLY host terrible code
2020-09-25 20:00:51 acdw hell yes
2020-09-25 20:01:05 acdw like, ban someone if their code is okay
2020-09-25 20:01:06 tomasino it's just so much work for a dumb joke. I need to be in the right mood for that
2020-09-25 20:01:08 tomasino like tomasino.is
2020-09-25 20:01:10 acdw haha yes
2020-09-25 20:01:19 acdw that's how breadpunk.club started
2020-09-25 20:01:34 tomasino breadpunk is such a good thing
2020-09-25 20:01:42 acdw awww <3
2020-09-25 20:01:49 acdw pretty quiet tbh
2020-09-25 20:01:50 tomasino like, the net good in the world increased a tiny fraction when that got dreamt up
2020-09-25 20:01:57 tomasino eh, mini tildes are
2020-09-25 20:02:04 tomasino you need to water them regularly
2020-09-25 20:02:06 acdw :D
2020-09-25 20:02:11 tomasino aka, advertise here and there to get new blood in
2020-09-25 20:02:16 acdw yeah I ened to give breadpunk some lvoe
2020-09-25 20:02:25 acdw well i should als oliek... wokr on ti
2020-09-25 20:02:28 acdw wow typing
2020-09-25 20:02:30 acdw work on it
2020-09-25 20:02:32 tomasino :D
2020-09-25 20:02:49 acdw also i've been considering moving my gmi stuff to breadpunk, but i also want my own special gmi server all my own
2020-09-25 20:02:54 acdw i'm waffling on that
2020-09-25 20:03:19 tomasino it's a toughy
2020-09-25 20:04:16 lukee plenty of room for multiple personas
2020-09-25 20:04:20 tomasino i think you need to come up with all the bread & dough puns and make them into meme-y ads for breadpunk.club. Get some stuff on reddit with it, and maybe stickers
2020-09-25 20:04:29 acdw lol YES
2020-09-25 20:04:39 acdw okay, weekend preojcte
2020-09-25 20:06:12 acdw my miain thing about movig my gemini stuff to breadpunk is that i think i'd have to change my online handle to breadw
2020-09-25 20:06:15 acdw pretty much everyewhere
2020-09-25 20:07:29 tomasino unless you can make acdw into a breadpun
2020-09-25 20:08:50 acdw .. like breadw?
2020-09-25 20:08:51 acdw lol
2020-09-25 20:09:27 tomasino :P
2020-09-25 20:10:00 tomasino i think i tried signing up way back when but my email got mangled in the outbox
2020-09-25 20:10:05 tomasino i was gonna be tomasindough
2020-09-25 20:10:12 lukee Artisan Chapatis are my Daily Work
2020-09-25 20:10:15 tomasino but i don't really like it. too long
2020-09-25 20:14:23 acdw lukee: hell yea
2020-09-25 20:14:31 acdw tomasino: try again!
2020-09-25 20:14:44 tomasino well, i feel like maybe i'll wait until i'm gonna do some dough work
2020-09-25 20:14:50 tomasino i don't want to sit there on an empty account
2020-09-25 20:15:05 acdw hehe understood ... tho you would not be alone lol
2020-09-25 20:16:20 tomasino :D
2020-09-25 20:21:41 lukee is it me or are queries in GUS broken right now?
2020-09-25 20:23:15 lukee I get response status 42 on queries (apparently means "CGI error")
2020-09-25 20:24:19 lukee here is an example query from GUS' documentation gemini://gus.guru/search?gemini
2020-09-25 20:25:18 ▬▬▶ wallet has joined #gemini
2020-09-25 20:38:47 lukee tomasino: how about bagtomasel: "tomas in o" -> "tomas in a bagel". I can only apologise
2020-09-25 20:40:24 ⚡ lukee should stick to the day job
2020-09-25 20:42:44 acdw omg that's great lukee
2020-09-25 20:42:48 acdw I 100% support that
2020-09-25 20:42:54 acdw as far as GUS goes, IDK
2020-09-25 20:43:23 acdw I'm getting the same error at https://portal.mozz.us/gemini/gus.guru/search%3Fgemini
2020-09-25 20:44:00 lukee I dropped natpen a line to let her know if she doesn't already
2020-09-25 20:44:46 acdw good idea
2020-09-25 20:49:12 lukee tomas in a bagel -> (tomas)
2020-09-25 20:49:54 tomasino :P
2020-09-25 20:50:29 acdw ( tomas)
2020-09-25 20:51:13 lukee so the o is the hole of the bagel?
2020-09-25 20:52:00 tomasino omg
2020-09-25 20:52:46 acdw hehe ye
2020-09-25 20:53:02 acdw youi could have sesame: (``tomas)
2020-09-25 20:53:13 acdw or onion: (,,tomas)
2020-09-25 20:53:27 acdw or poppy: (..tomas)
2020-09-25 20:53:40 acdw or ... EVERYTHING (my favorite kind): (`;tomas)
2020-09-25 20:54:06 acdw now I just want to make my PS1 a bagel
2020-09-25 20:54:07 tomasino i like blueberry bagels if i have to bagel
2020-09-25 20:54:13 lukee smoked salmon: (🐟tomas)
2020-09-25 20:54:14 acdw mm yeah blueberry's aight
2020-09-25 20:54:18 acdw lol lukee
2020-09-25 20:54:22 tomasino hehe
2020-09-25 20:54:48 Cadey i have no idea why my gemini server doesn't work over gemini but it does work over http
2020-09-25 20:55:31 tomasino :/
2020-09-25 20:55:34 tomasino that sounds problematic
2020-09-25 20:55:37 tomasino does it give an error?
2020-09-25 20:56:11 Cadey timeouts!
2020-09-25 20:56:20 Cadey no idea why either!
2020-09-25 20:57:13 tomasino hmmm
2020-09-25 20:57:21 tomasino does it work soemtimes or never
2020-09-25 20:57:49 Cadey never
2020-09-25 20:58:31 tomasino maybe the port got closed?
2020-09-25 20:58:33 tomasino simple as a firewall?
2020-09-25 20:58:40 Cadey no firewall
2020-09-25 20:58:57 tomasino what's the server again?
2020-09-25 20:59:05 Cadey cetacean.club
2020-09-25 20:59:20 lukee tomasino: you can have blueberry bagel, but only by the end of 2020 https://emojipedia.org/blueberries/
2020-09-25 20:59:52 tomasino i can't netcat or telnet to 1965 on cetacean.club
2020-09-25 20:59:59 tomasino even to get an error
2020-09-25 21:00:02 tomasino nothing. hangs
2020-09-25 21:00:11 lukee same here
2020-09-25 21:00:12 tomasino so either you're not listening on that port or blocking it somehow
2020-09-25 21:00:46 lukee its more like it accepts the connection, then hangs
2020-09-25 21:01:04 tomasino you're getting an accept?
2020-09-25 21:01:22 tomasino i'm not getting a connection
2020-09-25 21:01:28 Cadey i'm gonna break out strace i think
2020-09-25 21:01:34 lukee well TBH I can't strictly tell, but if the server or port is not there I normally get a different type of error
2020-09-25 21:02:27 tomasino https://ttm.sh/hIS.txt
2020-09-25 21:02:50 tomasino no "connected to cetacean.club" on the 1965
2020-09-25 21:02:53 ⚡ Cadey grabs the bag of fun
2020-09-25 21:02:58 tomasino yay fun!
2020-09-25 21:03:39 tomasino to compare, i do get a connection via telnet to tilde.team on 1965
2020-09-25 21:03:58 Cadey i may end up having to re-architect this gemini server code :(
2020-09-25 21:04:22 tomasino do you have a port listener written in another language you can slap up on 1965 real quick
2020-09-25 21:04:26 tomasino echo server or something
2020-09-25 21:04:32 tomasino we can narrow it down to the server then if that connects
2020-09-25 21:05:07 Cadey yeah try now
2020-09-25 21:05:28 tomasino no connection
2020-09-25 21:05:34 Cadey wat
2020-09-25 21:05:40 tomasino i think you've got a mysterious firewall
2020-09-25 21:05:44 tomasino is it a vps?
2020-09-25 21:06:09 tomasino sometimes those have firewalls at the vps level outside of the server itself. (throwing out random ideas)
2020-09-25 21:06:18 tomasino at least you know you probably don't need to debug your server code.
2020-09-25 21:06:26 Cadey it's on OVH
2020-09-25 21:07:04 tomasino i think ben uses that, or did. maybe he'd know if there was any mysterious trickery
2020-09-25 21:07:20 wallet has quit (Client exited)
2020-09-25 21:08:12 tomasino double check ufw status is off, or even iptables -L.... but i'm terrible at debuging iptables stuff.
2020-09-25 21:09:42 ⚡ tomasino is the king of "turn it off and on again" type helpdesk support
2020-09-25 21:24:56 boringcactus oh hey gemini://gemifedi.boringcactus.com/about appears to be alive
2020-09-25 21:25:35 tomasino woo
2020-09-25 21:25:46 boringcactus it is currently read-only, only ever fetches the last ten posts on your timeline, and sucks in a thousand other ways
2020-09-25 21:25:49 boringcactus but it's alive
2020-09-25 21:25:58 tomasino haha
2020-09-25 21:26:01 tomasino that's awesome work
2020-09-25 21:26:02 tomasino good job
2020-09-25 21:26:26 boringcactus ty ^w^
2020-09-25 21:35:22 acdw holy moly boringcactus that's amazing
2020-09-25 22:11:34 kevinsan that's cool boringcactus. it's already better than the web interface. I'm not kidding, i can almost feel the tranquility wash over me vs the mastodon landing page!
2020-09-25 22:12:50 ericonr boringcactus: that looks super neat
2020-09-25 22:13:43 ericonr I am now feeling the pressure to make my homebrewn client capable of sending input to the server
2020-09-25 22:14:34 acdw DO IT
2020-09-25 22:14:40 acdw ... if you want to
2020-09-25 22:14:56 tomasino do all the things!
2020-09-25 22:15:10 ⚡ tomasino sends Cadey some good troubleshooting vibes
2020-09-25 22:17:49 ericonr acdw: c:
2020-09-25 22:18:03 acdw oh i like that smiley
2020-09-25 22:18:08 ericonr my redirection implementation is already plenty hacky
2020-09-25 22:18:16 ericonr as is the navigation
2020-09-25 22:18:23 ericonr I think the only non hacky part is SSL
2020-09-25 22:18:33 ericonr and that's only because I don't do TOFU yet
2020-09-25 22:18:55 acdw haha I never ended up doijng TOFU
2020-09-25 22:19:33 ericonr it seems kinda required
2020-09-25 22:19:44 ericonr a lot of stuff I tried browsing is self signed :/
2020-09-25 22:19:50 acdw mmmm .. *technically*
2020-09-25 22:20:17 acdw yeah, but I don't even check if the TLS cert is valid
2020-09-25 22:20:48 ericonr unfortunately, I decided to use BearSSL to be hip and cool, and it makes skipping validation plenty hard
2020-09-25 22:21:03 acdw oh lol
2020-09-25 22:21:11 acdw yeah openssl don't care, at least not s_client
2020-09-25 22:21:16 ericonr well, that's the only unfortunate part. The library itself is pretty cool
2020-09-25 22:22:11 ericonr since it's a cmdline client, I implemented redirects and navigation by exec'ing into myself with the new link
2020-09-25 22:22:43 ericonr see https://github.com/ericonr/purr-c/blob/master/gemi.c
2020-09-25 22:24:17 acdw oh heck yeah
2020-09-25 22:24:26 acdw actually what bollux does too (I think)
2020-09-25 22:24:53 acdw also great name
2020-09-25 22:25:06 kevinsan you can probably afford the stack, but have you checked for circular redirects etc?
2020-09-25 22:25:59 ericonr kevinsan: you'll note the disclaimer: This is mainly a learning exercise for network, crypto and SSL programming, and all of the programs inside should be treated as such.
2020-09-25 22:26:03 ericonr and no, I didn't check
2020-09-25 22:26:15 ericonr thanks for the tip!
2020-09-25 22:27:23 ericonr should be pretty simple if a page redirects to itself, no idea how to do it (in my case) if page 1 -> page 2 -> page 1
2020-09-25 22:27:40 ericonr acdw: if you meant gemi, thanks :)
2020-09-25 22:27:59 acdw yep!
2020-09-25 22:28:01 acdw okay bye
2020-09-25 22:28:05 ericonr bb
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2020-09-25 22:32:23 ericonr kevinsan: I could do some ugly stuff by adding a parameter in the cmdline to check for circular redirection, or even an env var, but that would still be limitedd. Perhaps the best thing would be a redirection counter!
2020-09-25 22:35:53 kevinsan what I did was make the request handler a switch statement in a loop. if response is 30/31, set the url to the response url and loop.
2020-09-25 22:36:41 kevinsan if response is 20, then read, output, and break.
2020-09-25 22:36:45 kevinsan sort of thing...
2020-09-25 22:36:52 tomasino Cadey: did your DNS update? I'm seeing a new IP for cetacean.club
2020-09-25 22:39:32 kevinsan ericonr: s/request handler/response handler/ above.
2020-09-25 22:40:23 tomasino and now it's back to the original
2020-09-25 22:40:24 tomasino so confusing
2020-09-25 22:41:26 kevinsan some ISPs have lag updating their DNS primary/secondary/etc. servers perhaps?
2020-09-25 22:41:56 ⚡ tomasino shrugs
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2020-09-25 22:46:34 ericonr kevinsan: I see! I wish to keep the exec'ing into itself nature of the codebase, so I will try to go with the counter
2020-09-25 22:46:43 ericonr thanks for pointing it out, tho
2020-09-25 22:47:58 Cadey tomasino: you are?
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2020-09-25 22:48:24 Cadey OH MY GOD
2020-09-25 22:48:31 Cadey I FOUND OUT WHAT IT IS
2020-09-25 22:48:31 tomasino 104.27.185.151... changed to 172.67.188.160... and then back to 104 and now 2606:4700:3036::ac43:bca0...
2020-09-25 22:48:42 tomasino oh?
2020-09-25 22:48:57 Cadey I accidentally set the cloudflare record to proxied somehow
2020-09-25 22:49:03 tomasino ahha!!
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2020-09-25 23:03:41 tomasino so ... fixed!
2020-09-25 23:04:22 tomasino yay! i helped!
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2020-09-25 23:10:27 kevinsan it was the troubleshooting vibes that clinched it :)
2020-09-25 23:12:38 tomasino totally
2020-09-25 23:12:40 tomasino hah
2020-09-25 23:13:02 Cadey i was so confused because the program worked locally
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2020-09-25 23:14:42 tomasino i'm glad you didn't waste hours stracing your server
2020-09-25 23:15:03 Cadey i was about to
2020-09-25 23:15:12 kevinsan blast and damn cloudflare to hades!
2020-09-25 23:15:29 kevinsan forgive me, I don't know what came over me.
2020-09-25 23:16:06 Cadey still wonder if i should make gemflare a thing as a joke
2020-09-25 23:16:16 tomasino heh
2020-09-25 23:17:15 ericonr kevinsan: https://github.com/ericonr/purr-c/commit/c3184b989d8b934e2f52d999a6b0318e98616714 there we go
2020-09-25 23:17:18 kevinsan lol, i like satire. i mean, you just need to proxy requests via your server, right.
2020-09-25 23:17:18 Cadey have it literally be powered by sqlite
2020-09-25 23:19:22 kevinsan ericonr: your code is really quite lovely and clean. impressive.
2020-09-25 23:19:34 kevinsan on the other hand, the design sucks furballs :)
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2020-09-25 23:21:33 kevinsan jk, of course. diversity is what makes the world interesting.
2020-09-25 23:22:51 ericonr lol, thanks!
2020-09-25 23:23:08 ericonr eh, launching a new process for each link is probably not very efficient
2020-09-25 23:24:08 kevinsan with cacheing, it really makes no difference - especially with something so compact as a C binary.
2020-09-25 23:24:20 ericonr but it saves me from implementing a loop around this stuff, and the OS should free up the used memory
2020-09-25 23:24:32 ericonr indeed
2020-09-25 23:25:38 kevinsan I ./configured Drew's gmni, make'd, and fetched a page from localhost with the resulting binary, all in 0.38s
2020-09-25 23:27:48 ericonr hmm, interesting project
2020-09-25 23:40:18 lukee \o/ GUS is working now
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2020-09-26 13:10:58 mhj Heyo all
2020-09-26 13:11:23 mhj Didn't know this, but alacritty(the terminal emulator), recognizes gemini and gopher links
2020-09-26 13:13:25 tomasino nice! they added gemini already?
2020-09-26 13:13:36 tomasino someone was putting in a kitty PR for taht
2020-09-26 13:13:37 tomasino forget who
2020-09-26 13:15:27 mhj Yeah
2020-09-26 13:15:58 mhj I just know this because I switched from Konsole to Alacritty recently and looked at Alacritty's changelog
2020-09-26 13:17:55 tomasino neato
2020-09-26 13:18:02 tomasino another gemini do-gooder, likely
2020-09-26 13:18:17 mhj Sounds like it!
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2020-09-26 15:46:09 ericonr mhj: do you know how they determine the application to use to open gemini links?
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2020-09-26 17:47:13 mhj ericonr: Sadly no, maybe it's just whatever you have set up as the default handler? I dunno really
2020-09-26 17:49:07 ericonr cause it somehow opened kristall for me, but I don't think there _are_ gemini handlers registered in xdg-open stuff (which is what I assume alacritty is using)
2020-09-26 17:50:57 mhj Oh I see... hmm
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2020-09-26 18:19:10 lukee kevinsan: I'm really enjoying the videos from Ceephax Acid Crew. What a find!
2020-09-26 18:19:51 lukee they are really funny. I like this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHFL8WY-_cI
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2020-09-26 18:26:54 kevinsan lukee: i know! really pleased you enjoy it too - stuff like that restores a bit of my faith in the net.
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2020-09-26 18:29:50 lukee creativity finds a way to persist against the odds
2020-09-26 18:30:46 lukee the one called "Commuter" is quite relatable https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHFL8WY-_cI
2020-09-26 18:31:02 lukee (sorry I posted that twice)
2020-09-26 18:31:50 lukee I meant this one. The best kind of cat video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7_ihs758Oc
2020-09-26 18:44:58 lukee huh. His website or Youtube playing his video crashed firefox stone cold dead. Usually I'd feel annoyed, instead I feel a funny sense of admiration.
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2020-09-26 18:50:03 kevinsan :) worth it for Cat Waltzer, and images of Peacocks, Greggs, & Shoe Zone
2020-09-26 18:50:26 lukee has quit (Ping timeout: 120 seconds)
2020-09-26 18:51:14 kevinsan (for anyone not from the UK, these are kinda downmarket brands found in downmarket outskirt shopping areas, roughly speaking, at least)
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2020-09-26 18:58:35 lukee it is proper music too, not just stupid videos. Kudos to pull off an arpeggiated version of the Moonlight sonata.
2020-09-26 18:59:35 lukee the funniest thing about that video is that the audience doesn't know where the end of that piece is to give him a cheer.
2020-09-26 19:04:57 kevinsan ha, i know. also, he seems to have a bit of a Stewart Lee attitude - likes to see how far off field he can get away with pushing the audience
2020-09-26 19:05:44 kevinsan this is a lovely tune too, more polished that when live https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPRfaIpUPqo
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2020-09-26 19:12:31 lukee huh yes I already listened to that one - very good. Time to order some stuff from his website methinks
2020-09-26 19:17:29 lukee Stewart Lee is genius. I love how he manages to totally annoy Daily Mail readers.
2020-09-26 19:19:14 lukee I love the price Ceephax Acid Crew is charging for the album https://ceephax.bandcamp.com/album/camelot-arcade
2020-09-26 19:19:38 lukee £8.08
2020-09-26 19:21:59 kevinsan Not sure what the whole camelot/medieval thing's about though - there was a live set where there was a sort of medieval acid piece. crazy, but it worked.
2020-09-26 19:25:08 lukee Occasionally reminds me of Squarepusher - who is also quite musically insane in a marvellous way
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2020-09-26 19:29:55 kevinsan lukee: Squarepusher is his brother :)
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2020-09-26 19:35:26 kevinsan omg the cgi in his video is stunning (as is his music, thanks for the pointer!) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlhV-OKHecI
2020-09-26 19:41:06 lukee squarepusher is actually his brother or are you pulling my leg?
2020-09-26 19:42:55 lukee great video - thanks
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2020-09-26 19:51:43 kevinsan no, genuinely - his older brother
2020-09-26 19:58:21 lukee lol
2020-09-26 19:58:41 lukee I had no idea
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2020-09-26 20:06:13 kevinsan it's kinda crazy you picked up on that! musician's ear hears all.
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2020-09-26 20:29:56 lukee I just dipped into his bandcamp catalogue at sort of random. this early album from 2006 has clear squarepusher motifs to my ears https://ceephax.bandcamp.com/album/volume-one
2020-09-26 20:31:02 lukee I think he seems to have mellowed in the more recent stuff, somewhat less relentless, more squelchy analog synth
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2020-09-26 21:06:53 boringcactus is there an idiomatic way to escape things in gemtext? i've got a line of text that organically starts with a # and i want it to not get processed as a header
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2020-09-26 21:08:31 boringcactus it looks like prepending a space works, but i'm not sure if anything else also works and better matches what the community tends to favor
2020-09-26 21:11:55 tomasino that's the #1 way to escape anything in gemtext, yes
2020-09-26 21:12:01 lukee There is no official mechanism - I think prepending a space seems to be the most commonly used approach
2020-09-26 21:12:26 tomasino you can also put it inside a preformatted area ```. then everything is escaped except other ```'s
2020-09-26 21:12:45 boringcactus well yeah but i don't want it to render as a preformatted area
2020-09-26 21:13:12 boringcactus i posted "#1 blah blah blah" to Mastodon and it rendered on gemifedi as a header so i'm like oops
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2020-09-26 21:35:45 boringcactus ok i have hacked the planet and once my CI build finishes for gemifedi i'll be updating the demo server
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2020-09-26 22:24:34 boringcactus you can now post from https://git.sr.ht/~boringcactus/gemifedi
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2020-09-26 23:16:25 boringcactus ok is this idiomatic: since gemini doesn't have anything like the GET/POST distinction, for gemifedi any url that is non-idempotent has a ? in it and redirects away on completion, so any gemifedi url with no ? is safe to bookmark etc
2020-09-26 23:19:00 Cadey boringcactus: i'm about to release that gemtext patch you made
2020-09-26 23:19:12 boringcactus ty!! <3
2020-09-26 23:19:25 Cadey oh lol i bumped the wrong crate
2020-09-26 23:19:28 Cadey fixing!
2020-09-26 23:21:12 Cadey now to have faith in CI
2020-09-26 23:21:39 boringcactus shout out to CI
2020-09-26 23:22:50 Cadey CI won
2020-09-26 23:22:59 Cadey it's live as gemtext 0.2.0
2020-09-26 23:24:17 boringcactus ayyyy tyvm
2020-09-26 23:24:38 Cadey thank you for the patch!
2020-09-26 23:24:38 boringcactus maj made gemifedi like 20% the hassle it could've been
2020-09-26 23:24:50 Cadey that's amazing to hear!
2020-09-26 23:25:05 Cadey that's exactly what i made that package for
2020-09-26 23:25:12 Cadey enabling dumb hacks :D
2020-09-26 23:38:17 kvothe VERY cool, Cadey!
2020-09-26 23:38:33 kvothe (Seen't your posts on Mastodon)
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2020-09-27 00:36:43 tomasino it was neato
2020-09-27 00:38:31 jcowan I'd say there should be no such magic about ?
2020-09-27 00:38:51 jcowan queries can be idempotent over fixed databases
2020-09-27 00:39:26 jcowan Truly ? just separates hierarchical names from key-value identifiers
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2020-09-27 11:25:01 ehmry what are the http to gemini gateways? I remember seeing one the other day
2020-09-27 11:28:36 ⚡ ehmry found it
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2020-09-27 12:07:01 login ehmry: which one did you find?
2020-09-27 12:07:03 login there are many
2020-09-27 12:07:33 xfnw there are 3, login lol
2020-09-27 12:08:01 login xfnw: oh, three under tildeverse, yes?
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2020-09-27 12:21:58 ehmry https://proxy.vulpes.one/ looks pretty good
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2020-09-27 16:02:15 ℹ Topic for #gemini is "Gemini (protocol) enthusiasts - gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | https://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | gopher://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | publically logged in gemspace"
2020-09-27 16:02:15 ℹ Topic set by tomasino (~tomasino@oper.tilde.chat) on Mon, 21 Sep 2020 21:06:53
2020-09-27 16:02:15 ℹ Channel #gemini: 108 nicks (2 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 106 normals)
2020-09-27 16:02:16 ℹ Mode #gemini [+o tomasino] by ChanServ
2020-09-27 16:02:39 ℹ Channel created on Sat, 31 Aug 2019 22:41:57
2020-09-27 16:21:31 baschdel has quit (Ping timeout: 120 seconds)
2020-09-27 16:23:03 xj9 https://sunshinegardens.org is one too, source linked in the footer.
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2020-09-27 16:41:29 ℹ Topic for #gemini is "Gemini (protocol) enthusiasts - gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | https://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | gopher://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | publically logged in gemspace"
2020-09-27 16:41:29 ℹ Topic set by tomasino (~tomasino@oper.tilde.chat) on Mon, 21 Sep 2020 21:06:53
2020-09-27 16:41:29 ℹ Channel #gemini: 107 nicks (2 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 105 normals)
2020-09-27 16:41:29 ℹ Mode #gemini [+o tomasino] by ChanServ
2020-09-27 16:41:59 ℹ Channel created on Sat, 31 Aug 2019 22:41:57
2020-09-27 16:48:10 Cadey https://christine.website/blog/rust-crates-go-stdlib-2020-09-27
2020-09-27 16:48:18 Cadey this took forever to write lol
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2020-09-27 16:49:29 @ben Cadey: s/levers/levels/
2020-09-27 16:49:51 @ben 2nd paragraph of ## logging
2020-09-27 16:49:53 Cadey fuck
2020-09-27 16:50:24 Cadey i'll add that to the corrections list
2020-09-27 16:54:47 @ben +1
2020-09-27 16:56:38 @ben interesting post
2020-09-27 16:56:49 @ben i'm not familiar with go or rust though lol
2020-09-27 17:00:17 aravk gemini://gemini.ctrl-c.club/~aravk/blabe.gmi
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2020-09-27 17:05:46 aravk about making a new form of asynchronous after trying rust's thing
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2020-09-27 18:54:21 jcowan I'm devising a new protocol to go with gemini, tentatively called dioscuri. Should I post to the ML, or is it worth discussing it here?
2020-09-27 18:54:36 login ML
2020-09-27 18:54:54 aravk how can I subscribe to the ML
2020-09-27 18:55:00 aravk didn't even know there was one
2020-09-27 18:55:22 aravk nvm found it
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2020-09-27 19:58:09 kevinsan jcowan: both. in the past, IRC chats have helped make ML posts and discussion more coherent (in my opinion, at least!)
2020-09-27 20:00:36 jcowan Well, I certainly will post. My idea is to provide a separate protocol (on its own port) that allows REST operations. The general style is that a client supplies a standard client header enhanced with some indication of what operation it wants and (optionally) a server header and body. What's returned is a header and possible body.
2020-09-27 20:01:05 jcowan Everything that is Gemini-like simply is Gemini, but Gemini servers need not cope unless they are listening on the Dioscuri port also
2020-09-27 20:01:55 jcowan What I'm curious about is how much revulsion this idea will provoke. :-)
2020-09-27 20:05:34 djph jcowan: i'm somewhere up around "The Sackville-Bagginses!" and "Fool of a Took!"
2020-09-27 20:05:35 aravk I mean, you could pull this off using the INPUT style and using slightly longer URLs (e.g. /get, /send, etc.)
2020-09-27 20:05:51 aravk only an issue if you need to send over more than 1024 bytes
2020-09-27 20:08:04 jcowan Quite so. PUT and POST, however, don't lend themselves to such short restrictions. AFAIU people use sftp as the PUT/POST protocol right now; it seems better to be more self-contained in the Gemini world.
2020-09-27 20:08:15 jcowan Dioscuri might also *require* client certs.
2020-09-27 20:10:15 jcowan Speaking of which, I saw a reference to using client certs in place of the good uses of session cookies, but a single subject might have/need more than one session, as in a tabbed browser.
2020-09-27 20:10:33 boringcactus i mean. sufficiently well-built tabbed browsers will support that
2020-09-27 20:10:42 boringcactus kristall does
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2020-09-27 20:14:43 lukee evening all
2020-09-27 20:14:48 aravk helo
2020-09-27 20:14:52 @tomasino hiya
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2020-09-27 20:17:15 lukee jcowan: I'm always up for a Gemini-adjacent discussion
2020-09-27 20:17:33 lukee what is the use case you have in mind that you think is needed?
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2020-09-27 20:18:25 aravk REST operations I think they said
2020-09-27 20:18:55 jcowan The simplest level is PUT/POST: we want to add or replace a file to be served by a Gemini server. This can be done with an entirely different protocol such as HTTP or FTP, or for that matter email; it cannot be done with Gemini. Dioscuri should be almost as easy to implement as Gemini and serves that purpose and others.
2020-09-27 20:20:02 lukee yes Gemini is a read only protocol really, so it is limited at the moment
2020-09-27 20:20:27 jcowan And I don't want to change that, just to adapt the Gemini ideas to a read-write protocol.
2020-09-27 20:20:40 lukee I see what you did there :)
2020-09-27 20:20:48 jcowan What, with the name?
2020-09-27 20:20:59 lukee you dont want the protocol police knocking at your door :)
2020-09-27 20:21:29 lukee no by saying you want to apply the ideas to *another* protocol
2020-09-27 20:22:00 jcowan Yes. (BTW, gopher, finger, and whois all use the same protocol on different ports.)
2020-09-27 20:22:06 lukee there is a lot of hypersensitivity about extending the finished jewel that is Gemini
2020-09-27 20:22:13 jcowan Quite so.
2020-09-27 20:22:58 lukee actually you dont need another port, the server can just check the url scheme
2020-09-27 20:23:04 jcowan And since "Gemini" is the Latin name for the Heavenly Twins, I chose the (Latinized) Greek name for this protocol.
2020-09-27 20:23:11 aravk anyone wants to join in defending Gemini over at #meta
2020-09-27 20:23:19 aravk jcowan: that's pretty cool naming
2020-09-27 20:23:29 jcowan Should I take this to #meta? This is the only channel I know about.
2020-09-27 20:23:35 @tomasino no
2020-09-27 20:23:38 @tomasino you're in the right place
2020-09-27 20:23:44 @tomasino meta is a free-for-all of nonsense
2020-09-27 20:23:48 jcowan Ah.
2020-09-27 20:23:53 jcowan aka #random
2020-09-27 20:23:56 @tomasino it just happens to have some eeyore-types bitching right now about gemini
2020-09-27 20:24:45 lukee do you have any views on titan and I think there is another community proposal for content submission?
2020-09-27 20:25:24 jcowan URL?
2020-09-27 20:25:33 lukee erm let me check
2020-09-27 20:26:01 jcowan I've read much of this year's archive, but all the names kinda flickered past each other
2020-09-27 20:26:25 @tomasino it's what kensanata (alex shroeder) uses for his wiki uploads
2020-09-27 20:26:34 @tomasino i think i misspelled his last name there
2020-09-27 20:28:06 lukee https://communitywiki.org/wiki/Titan is one place
2020-09-27 20:28:26 lukee I think there may be a gemini-visible version, not sure of URL right now
2020-09-27 20:30:11 ⚡ jcowan reads...
2020-09-27 20:30:37 lukee there is another write mode that has been written up. Not sure if I can find it.
2020-09-27 20:32:16 jcowan Okay, so it's a single-purpose operation: someone publishes a Titan port with an auth token through a side channel, and then you can write a header + content to the port.
2020-09-27 20:34:17 jcowan Another use case is support for single-page applications: the client POSTs JSON to a Dioscuri port and gets back a JSON reply (use anything you want instead of JSON, of course)
2020-09-27 20:34:21 lukee apparently there is an implementation as a command line script.
2020-09-27 20:34:39 lukee Personally I don't like the idea of putting the submission parameters into the URL
2020-09-27 20:35:10 lukee URLs are supposed to be stable resources as far as I understand it
2020-09-27 20:35:23 ⚡ jcowan agrees
2020-09-27 20:35:42 jcowan It is, without offense, a kludge that serves a purpose.
2020-09-27 20:36:00 lukee theres that as well
2020-09-27 20:36:47 lukee so what do you think a radically simple, gemini-inspired upload protocol would look like?
2020-09-27 20:36:58 jcowan (Note however that "resource" != "sequence of bits with a media type"; HTTP lets you ask for the Dutch, English, or German version of a resource in that order of priority.)
2020-09-27 20:46:00 jcowan (Conventions: Square bracket numbers are for reference; > means "client says", "<" means "server says"; <...> means "fill in here")
2020-09-27 20:46:17 jcowan [1] > PUT <url>
2020-09-27 20:46:17 jcowan [2] > 20 text/gemini
2020-09-27 20:46:17 jcowan [3] > body
2020-09-27 20:46:17 jcowan [4] < 20
2020-09-27 20:46:17 jcowan (close, open again)
2020-09-27 20:46:17 jcowan [5] > POST <url>
2020-09-27 20:46:17 jcowan [6] > 20 application/json
2020-09-27 20:46:17 jcowan [7] > <JSON value>
2020-09-27 20:46:17 jcowan [8] < 20 application/json
2020-09-27 20:46:17 jcowan [9] < <JSON value>
2020-09-27 20:47:18 jcowan GET has a server body but no client body; PUT has a client body but no server body; POST has both; DELETE has neither
2020-09-27 20:48:01 lukee Do we really need PUT and DELETE? The web got by without them
2020-09-27 20:48:25 jcowan The basic reason the Web doesn't have them is the lack of client auth.
2020-09-27 20:48:44 jcowan Again, how would you take down a resource without DELETE?
2020-09-27 20:48:52 jcowan With FTP, plainly.
2020-09-27 20:49:00 lukee you just post to a deleting end point
2020-09-27 20:49:23 lukee the point is POST has side effects
2020-09-27 20:49:31 lukee and those will vary by application
2020-09-27 20:49:33 jcowan You could, except that logically there is no body to send and no body to receive. Everything except GET has side effects.
2020-09-27 20:49:58 jcowan A new set of verbs would not be a bad idea, as they would have no connotations
2020-09-27 20:50:17 aravk I would actually argue that there doesn't need to be a protocol that encompasses everything
2020-09-27 20:50:22 jcowan But logically speaking there are four of them. You could eliminate this with a mime-type of "null"
2020-09-27 20:50:28 aravk like personally I would ssh in and deal with this kind of thing
2020-09-27 20:50:45 aravk gemini aims to deliver content from server -> client and that's it's thing
2020-09-27 20:50:53 lukee aravk: ssh is good for early adopters but not end users IMO
2020-09-27 20:50:54 aravk which I think is pretty good for most use cases
2020-09-27 20:51:04 jcowan That's awkward for automation, though, when you want to take down your application's version 1 docs when version 1 is no longer supported.
2020-09-27 20:51:26 aravk it's really not
2020-09-27 20:51:28 jcowan Absolutely. That's why (heh heh) I want a *new* protocol (blammo blammo)
2020-09-27 20:51:43 aravk ssh ctrl-c.club rm -r ~/dir
2020-09-27 20:51:45 aravk done
2020-09-27 20:52:13 aravk and I think tildes nicely exhibit larger-scale ssh use for this kind of thing
2020-09-27 20:52:28 lukee why not just use ssh for everything then? (rhetorical question)
2020-09-27 20:52:35 aravk but I'm just here to provide some counter arguments
2020-09-27 20:52:57 jcowan Sure. Very useful. "Without debate we do not have views, only random opinions"
2020-09-27 20:53:20 lukee jcowan: I still dont understand why we need all 4 verbs, we just need an idempotent one, and a non-idempotent one
2020-09-27 20:53:43 lukee (the equivalent of GET and POST) we have GET, just missing POST
2020-09-27 20:54:07 lukee othewise I like it, just wondering if it can be simplified further
2020-09-27 20:54:09 jcowan Another reason is that with explicit verbs, protocol-specific firewalls are easier
2020-09-27 20:54:27 lukee why do we need that?
2020-09-27 20:54:48 jcowan Ask your local infosec person!
2020-09-27 20:54:51 aravk I actually had a super enlightening discussion on #meta discussing drawbacks of gemini (and by extension tls, tcp, etc.)
2020-09-27 20:55:12 aravk things like Content-Length come to mind
2020-09-27 20:55:28 jcowan aravk: can you post or mail me a copy of that?
2020-09-27 20:55:50 aravk jcowan: the entire conversation? I can try, but I'll have to figure out how to first
2020-09-27 20:56:09 jcowan How about these verbs: ASK, TELL, ASK-TELL, ACT?
2020-09-27 20:56:11 aravk right now I don't think my irssi is logging, so it's gonna be a bit problematic, but I'll see what I can do
2020-09-27 20:56:20 jcowan thanks
2020-09-27 20:56:21 lukee aravk: it would be great if you can share on the chat so we can all see
2020-09-27 20:56:27 jcowan Indeed.
2020-09-27 20:56:39 aravk I'll put it on a pastebin somewhere
2020-09-27 20:56:46 aravk does anybody have good pastebin recommendations actually
2020-09-27 20:56:53 jcowan the list archives, pastebins do not
2020-09-27 20:56:58 jcowan But of course both is fine
2020-09-27 20:57:16 aravk I'll probably do the list archive
2020-09-27 20:58:11 ericonr aravk: having implemented a dumb downloader that does a little bit of the HTTP header dance, Content-Length was really nice to have
2020-09-27 20:58:41 lukee jcowan: I'm not sure why an infosec would be blocking specific protocol verbs on the firewall. Security requirements should be implemented on the resource itself.
2020-09-27 20:58:54 ericonr in Gemini you just gotta wait for the socket to stop responding, but the connection can still be closed by someone else
2020-09-27 20:59:26 jcowan In the general case, yes. But saying "This server is locked down to deletion" is not equivalent to saying "This resource, and this, and this ... are locked down to deletion."
2020-09-27 21:00:42 aravk ericonr: exactly!
2020-09-27 21:00:49 aravk this is the kind of stuff I never thought about
2020-09-27 21:00:53 lukee but in general a POST is just as dangerous as any other non-idempotent verb
2020-09-27 21:01:32 lukee if you expose the end point to a client, you have to implement a safe behaviour for it
2020-09-27 21:01:38 lukee whatever that is
2020-09-27 21:01:42 jcowan Yes, although arguably that's because of POST abuse. Originally POST was supposed to mean "This is the URL of a container. Add this body to that container and tell ne its URL."
2020-09-27 21:02:11 jcowan (a logical container, of course)
2020-09-27 21:02:17 lukee yes, but my point is POST is flexible enough to do what we need
2020-09-27 21:02:49 lukee and it never was implemented as some kind of Pure thing (tm)
2020-09-27 21:02:59 jcowan I think you may be right as long as the server is able (but not required) to return an URL in the protocol
2020-09-27 21:03:04 lukee it is the non-idempotent verb, after all
2020-09-27 21:04:01 lukee we have a redirect already in gemini, so you post, the server sends a "success" redirect to the uploaded resource
2020-09-27 21:05:18 lukee I think from a Roy fielding REST othodoxy, you are probably right that these verbs should be disentangled. But pragmatically its not necessary
2020-09-27 21:05:31 lukee and we can get by with two
2020-09-27 21:05:46 jcowan You probably want a different status code, though
2020-09-27 21:05:54 lukee quite possibly
2020-09-27 21:06:10 jcowan redirect means to retry *the request URL*, where as this means *this is the URL of the response
2020-09-27 21:06:28 jcowan Maybe those really are the same, I'm not sure.
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2020-09-27 21:06:58 lukee I think it can be specified if you get a redirect in response to a "post" then it is a success/here it is
2020-09-27 21:07:24 lukee but we can think it through - maybe it helps in some cases
2020-09-27 21:09:19 lukee so from a radical-simple-inspired-by-gemini protocol maybe we can just get by with a "post" protocol along the lines you suggest
2020-09-27 21:10:18 jcowan In that cadse all we need is URL<SP>mime-type, which is an implicit post, so the server reads the new body
2020-09-27 21:11:01 jcowan and then returns success, redirect, etc. etc
2020-09-27 21:11:23 jcowan it could even (shhhh) be done by a Gemini server, since <SP> is not allowed in URLs.
2020-09-27 21:12:57 lukee that is similar to what gopher had
2020-09-27 21:13:11 lukee it used a tab to separate the payload from the URL
2020-09-27 21:13:45 aravk ok, I've managed to get the relevant logs - will post to the ML
2020-09-27 21:14:02 aravk it accepts text/plain attachments, right?
2020-09-27 21:14:06 lukee which latterly got transformed into query style URLs, but originally it was a non-idempotent post type
2020-09-27 21:14:11 aravk it's a 300 line text file
2020-09-27 21:14:36 lukee aravk: it might generate a lot of upset
2020-09-27 21:14:47 aravk don't mind
2020-09-27 21:14:52 aravk better, even
2020-09-27 21:14:53 lukee could you post it to a gemlog
2020-09-27 21:14:58 lukee and send a link?
2020-09-27 21:15:05 aravk I still have no clue what a gemlog is
2020-09-27 21:15:28 aravk even tried searching on GUS, getting no (relevant) results
2020-09-27 21:15:29 lukee a page on a gemini host (e.g. your own if you have one?)
2020-09-27 21:15:42 lukee like a blog/phlog
2020-09-27 21:15:43 aravk yeah I have a think on ctrl-c.club
2020-09-27 21:15:46 aravk I'll just post it there
2020-09-27 21:16:06 aravk but I do want to expose the ML people to it, just for the sake of discussion
2020-09-27 21:16:18 aravk because some important things are pointed out
2020-09-27 21:16:29 lukee ok good luck
2020-09-27 21:16:33 aravk heh :)
2020-09-27 21:17:48 lukee jcowan: I like your suggestion to separate with <SP>
2020-09-27 21:18:18 lukee I have been thinking along similar lines
2020-09-27 21:18:51 jcowan I'll be baaaac
2020-09-27 21:19:31 aravk should now be available at gemini://gemini.ctrl-c.club/~aravk/irc-log-2020-09-27-about-gemini.txt
2020-09-27 21:41:43 alex11 there we go
2020-09-27 21:41:48 alex11 finally managed to get a client working lmfao
2020-09-27 21:44:21 lukee aravk: I'm getting a resource not found at that url
2020-09-27 21:47:16 lukee alex11: you got one working or you wrote a client?
2020-09-27 21:48:48 alex11 got one working
2020-09-27 21:48:55 alex11 i know
2020-09-27 21:48:57 alex11 i'm not proud
2020-09-27 21:50:10 ericonr why didn't it work?
2020-09-27 21:53:09 lukee its not as easy as it ought to be
2020-09-27 21:55:15 ericonr well, there are distros shipping gemini browsers, so on those it's quite straightforward c:
2020-09-27 21:55:37 ericonr if you go outside that it can become a PITA pretty fast, I guess
2020-09-27 21:56:03 alex11 lol i didn't even think to check the debian repos
2020-09-27 21:56:05 alex11 oh well
2020-09-27 21:57:15 alex11 quite a few of them seem to not be there though
2020-09-27 21:57:17 alex11 whatever
2020-09-27 21:57:45 alex11 apt search gemini returns nothing
2020-09-27 21:58:10 alex11 it does have at least one for gopher
2020-09-27 22:04:36 lukee to be fair, gopher has been around for a while, gemini is barely a year and a bit old
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2020-09-27 22:06:47 ▬▬▶ tomasino has joined #gemini
2020-09-27 22:06:47 ℹ Topic for #gemini is "Gemini (protocol) enthusiasts - gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | https://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | gopher://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | publically logged in gemspace"
2020-09-27 22:06:47 ℹ Topic set by tomasino (~tomasino@oper.tilde.chat) on Mon, 21 Sep 2020 21:06:53
2020-09-27 22:06:47 ℹ Channel #gemini: 109 nicks (2 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 107 normals)
2020-09-27 22:06:47 ℹ Mode #gemini [+o tomasino] by ChanServ
2020-09-27 22:07:11 ℹ Channel created on Sat, 31 Aug 2019 22:41:57
2020-09-27 22:07:12 alex11 for sure
2020-09-27 22:07:18 alex11 i didn't check Backports
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2020-09-27 22:32:09 ▬▬▶ boringcactus has joined #gemini
2020-09-27 22:45:55 lukee good night all, time to remember I am supposed to be diurnal
2020-09-27 22:46:20 lukee has quit (quit: Leaving)
2020-09-27 22:48:12 @tomasino nite
2020-09-27 22:59:40 kevinsan tomasino: are you able to get the #meta chat logs from earlier? if so, i'd be happy to delete the irrelevant stuff and put the rest up (i think the above link gives a 'not found')
2020-09-27 22:59:51 kevinsan though it might be a case of 'ggdG' :)
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2020-09-27 23:24:01 jcowan I realized that code 30 can't be used by a Dioscuri server to mean 'result is at this URL', because that would mean 'retry posting at this URL'. So we need a code 21 for which META is the URL.
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2020-09-28 02:08:34 mhj So apparently, if you haven't heard the news, a company on Amazon is selling Rock64's(A Pine64 SBC) for like $17(Now. They used to be $8, but I got in too late). I'm thinking of throwing Armbian on it, and spin-up a gemini server on it, after I lock down everything and put it in a DMZ.
2020-09-28 02:10:09 mhj https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0868WSTXH/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
2020-09-28 02:10:50 mhj Search for "Iconikal Rockchip" if you can't get the link working
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2020-09-28 08:13:06 kevinsan mhj: this was $9 a week or so ago - hard to imagine how this is achieved.
2020-09-28 08:18:03 kevinsan what i find most interesting though is the efforts to produce a risc-v/gpu hybrid - so far, only 2d at the moment i think, but that would be plenty good for a lot of stuff.
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2020-09-28 12:15:47 mhj kevinsan: I would love anything risc-v at this point lol
2020-09-28 12:17:03 mhj Also morning all
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2020-09-28 13:20:00 ℹ Topic for #gemini is "Gemini (protocol) enthusiasts - gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | https://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | gopher://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | publically logged in gemspace"
2020-09-28 13:20:00 ℹ Topic set by tomasino (~tomasino@oper.tilde.chat) on Mon, 21 Sep 2020 21:06:53
2020-09-28 13:20:00 ℹ Channel #gemini: 105 nicks (2 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 103 normals)
2020-09-28 13:20:00 ℹ Mode #gemini [+o tomasino] by ChanServ
2020-09-28 13:20:24 ℹ Channel created on Sat, 31 Aug 2019 22:41:57
2020-09-28 14:12:02 rain1 hi
2020-09-28 14:35:05 login hi rain1
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2020-09-28 16:04:43 rain1 is there gui clients for gemini?
2020-09-28 16:06:48 @tomasino yep
2020-09-28 16:06:51 @tomasino quite a few
2020-09-28 16:07:01 @tomasino i like Kristall personally. There are prebuilt binaries on the website
2020-09-28 16:09:02 boringcactus also a fan of Kristall
2020-09-28 16:09:25 felix Same. Also look up Geminaut and Castor, just in case.
2020-09-28 16:09:58 felix But Kristall is the one I can actually run, and it's good.
2020-09-28 16:10:00 @tomasino and the A one...
2020-09-28 16:10:01 rain1 is there a place i can see screenshots of them?
2020-09-28 16:10:16 @tomasino https://github.com/MasterQ32/kristall
2020-09-28 16:10:19 @tomasino scroll down for pics
2020-09-28 16:10:26 @tomasino but it's theme-able
2020-09-28 16:10:34 @tomasino you can swap to a dark theme, or pick your own colors/fonts
2020-09-28 16:10:42 felix They all have screenshots on their respective websites.
2020-09-28 16:10:43 @tomasino https://kristall.random-projects.net
2020-09-28 16:10:52 @tomasino actual website with download links
2020-09-28 16:11:09 rain1 wow impressive
2020-09-28 16:21:39 jns I three like Kristall!
2020-09-28 16:22:07 jns it's also become my preferred way to browse gopher
2020-09-28 16:22:15 jns at least, when i have a gui available
2020-09-28 16:25:51 felix I just appreciate not having to change browsers when links cross protocols.
2020-09-28 16:26:25 xj9 kristall is my go-to as well, at least until i learn enough limbo to be a danger to myself and others
2020-09-28 16:27:46 xj9 i'm surprised by how many of the websites i visit render properly in kristall
2020-09-28 16:28:01 xj9 i <3 good simple html sites
2020-09-28 16:28:52 mhj I'm personally using bombadillo, but I have used geminaut before and it was good. Haven't tried Kristall yet, but it looks awesome.
2020-09-28 16:29:33 felix Bombadillo is fine too, but in the terminal I switched to Amfora.
2020-09-28 16:29:52 xfnw :( i broke my install of jetforce so now i nolonger have a selfhosted gemini pod
2020-09-28 16:30:00 felix Aw.
2020-09-28 16:30:10 mhj =/
2020-09-28 16:32:49 mhj Did you have a backup anywhere of the install? Hmm. You could install Go and try the Molly Brown gemini server, it's what I use on FreeBSD, but it works on Linux too
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2020-09-28 16:53:10 rain1 I made a gui gopher client
2020-09-28 16:53:21 felix Do tell!
2020-09-28 16:53:31 rain1 i used vala and GTK for the gui
2020-09-28 16:53:41 felix Sounds good!
2020-09-28 16:54:12 rain1 https://notabug.org/rain1/gopher
2020-09-28 16:54:46 rain1 https://cdn.niu.moe/media_attachments/files/004/822/502/original/fcab8db1e71493bb.png
2020-09-28 16:55:24 ericonr rain1: > as well as the "\n\r" instead of "\r\n" bug <-- thank god I'm not the only one who gets these confused :D
2020-09-28 16:55:52 rain1 I feel like \n alone may be sufficient these days - but gemini is still using \n\r?
2020-09-28 16:57:04 felix \r\n is mandated by many network protocols, likely to reduce ambiguity.
2020-09-28 16:57:49 ericonr yeah, I'm okay with requiring two characters to make line breaks very clear
2020-09-28 16:57:51 felix And that looks good! I don't have Vala installed here, but I'll try on another box if I don't forget.
2020-09-28 16:57:58 ericonr doesn't mean I don't get confused about the order, tho
2020-09-28 17:19:38 jcowan felix: Nothing to do with ambiguity, just the standard way to divide text lines, based on the Model 33 teletype. Because Unix came from Bell Labs, they had access to Model 37 TTYs, in which lower case was available and LF could be used as a line ending.
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2020-09-28 18:16:31 lukee hi folks. Another day of cat herding over, another evening of shark-swimming begun.
2020-09-28 18:26:05 felix Yikes.
2020-09-28 18:27:54 lukee believe me, my cat does not appreciate being told what to do
2020-09-28 18:28:13 felix :D
2020-09-28 18:29:16 lukee his current favourite spot is on top of my mousemat. He likes the cushioned feel.
2020-09-28 18:29:35 lukee when I pull out the mouse from underneath him, he bit me.
2020-09-28 18:29:43 lukee Just like life really.
2020-09-28 18:30:38 jcowan Yes, well, no kidding. Coming between predator and prey is never a Good Plan.
2020-09-28 18:30:51 felix That's a cat all right.
2020-09-28 18:31:13 ★ tomasino is a predator for sammiches... and goes off hunting
2020-09-28 18:32:05 lukee jcowan: good to see your post earlier. You seem to have more patience than I would for dealing with facetious comments.
2020-09-28 18:32:57 felix I should go. See you!
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2020-09-28 20:31:48 rain1 hi
2020-09-28 21:19:47 michel rain1: hola
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2020-09-29 02:46:21 ℹ Topic for #gemini is "Gemini (protocol) enthusiasts - gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | https://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | gopher://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | publically logged in gemspace"
2020-09-29 02:46:21 ℹ Topic set by tomasino (~tomasino@oper.tilde.chat) on Mon, 21 Sep 2020 21:06:53
2020-09-29 02:46:21 ℹ Channel #gemini: 106 nicks (2 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 104 normals)
2020-09-29 02:46:21 ℹ Mode #gemini [+o tomasino] by ChanServ
2020-09-29 02:46:59 ℹ Channel created on Sat, 31 Aug 2019 22:41:57
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2020-09-29 07:02:48 ehmry what do people think about archiving and mirroring? does making git repositories for content discoverable sound reasonable?
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2020-09-29 08:15:28 kevinsan ehmry: from an etiquette point of view, consensus seems to be that archiving would be an impolite imposition on the author's choice to retract
2020-09-29 08:16:09 boringcactus how do search engines handle that?
2020-09-29 08:16:20 ehmry kevinsan: don't care
2020-09-29 08:16:24 kevinsan though from a technical point of view, that's irrelevant. it's built into the digital medium
2020-09-29 08:16:27 ehmry yes
2020-09-29 08:16:49 boringcactus ehh bad citizenship is in poor taste
2020-09-29 08:17:02 kevinsan boringcactus: if i delete something, then gus no longer indexes it, i suppose.
2020-09-29 08:17:20 kevinsan ehmry: don't care about what?
2020-09-29 08:17:51 ehmry consensus is that people publish things so other people read them
2020-09-29 08:18:13 kevinsan for the record, i have no opinion on archiving. sometimes it's handy, sometimes embarrassing
2020-09-29 08:18:24 ehmry redacting and censorship are indistinguishable from the perspective of the reader
2020-09-29 08:18:41 boringcactus well
2020-09-29 08:18:48 boringcactus one of them is in opposition to the author's wishes
2020-09-29 08:18:55 kevinsan ehmry: you asked what do people think about it, i answered an opinion, and you said you don't care.
2020-09-29 08:18:56 boringcactus one of them is in accord with them
2020-09-29 08:19:08 kevinsan i hope you're not being antagonistic, because i cba :)
2020-09-29 08:19:56 boringcactus i wish i had the confidence to go into an irc and say "what do y'all think about this" and hear "it's a dick move" and say "i don't care" and hear "bruh" and say "i hope you're not being antagonistic :)"
2020-09-29 08:20:42 boringcactus evidently per gemini://gus.guru/documentation/indexing GUS respects a robots.txt and will un-index files that get deleted or from hosts that go down
2020-09-29 08:21:28 boringcactus if you wanted to make the Gemini Archive it should at a bare minimum respect robots.txt, and respect it retroactively, like the actual Internet Archive does
2020-09-29 08:21:30 kevinsan boringcactus: it just makes noise - particularly when i have no opinion myself on the subject.
2020-09-29 08:21:49 boringcactus oh i misread who was who there
2020-09-29 08:21:50 boringcactus oops
2020-09-29 08:22:02 boringcactus snark retracted
2020-09-29 08:22:10 boringcactus partially
2020-09-29 08:22:14 ehmry look, I will archive whatever pages I like, regardless of what the authors wishes are, - what I am asking is if anyone is interested in making archiving easier _for those that wish their sites to be archived_
2020-09-29 08:22:15 kevinsan i like that gus is respectful in this way, but i don't expect that everyone will be - real world never fits my expectations,
2020-09-29 08:22:44 kevinsan ehmry: that is not what you asked
2020-09-29 08:23:22 ehmry kevinsan: I'm trying to tell you what I'm asking
2020-09-29 08:23:23 kevinsan please, go ahead and archive anything of mine. or don't, i don't even keep logs
2020-09-29 08:28:57 boringcactus man it'd been so long since i ran into the "i will do this thing regardless of how much of a dick move it is, i don't care" attitude that i forgot it existed outside the hackernews techbro crowd
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2020-09-29 08:29:50 kevinsan ha, i know - it's like getting the reddit experience right here on IRC
2020-09-29 08:30:52 kevinsan i think of it as a gift, emotional provocation for free - no advert, no tracking, just good ol' poking and trolling.
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2020-09-29 08:38:22 lukee hello folks
2020-09-29 08:38:31 kevinsan morning lukee :)
2020-09-29 08:39:25 lukee for what its worth, I think there are two different kinds of archive. One that one makes for a sort of personal or offline use, perhaps as a sort of memory aid. These I have no problem with
2020-09-29 08:40:18 lukee the other kind, is some sort of larger, automatically created archive, designed for sharing with a wider audience. These should really respect robots.txt if they want to be good citizens
2020-09-29 08:41:08 lukee the border is a bit blurry I admit
2020-09-29 08:41:31 kevinsan they're really the same thing used for different purposes. even a cache is an archive, where the intention is to delete it at some point in the future
2020-09-29 08:41:35 lukee but those are the archetypes
2020-09-29 08:42:06 lukee yes the act of content gathering is just to use whatever technology lets you do
2020-09-29 08:43:27 lukee but ultimately as writers who put stuff into the public sphere, once you press send/submit/go, you have to accept you dont have full control anymore
2020-09-29 08:43:28 kevinsan they are a net gain, they are also unavoidable, so any downsides just have to be mitigated. that's why the option of anonymity is important
2020-09-29 08:43:58 kevinsan exactly. there's no avoiding that, so why waste brain time on it
2020-09-29 08:46:17 kevinsan the only issue i have is the environmental impact of wasting storage space on my anti-kitten rants - i mean, i hate them with a passion. they're all low iq, they're colluding to drive up 5G usage, and really they run the world.
2020-09-29 08:46:31 flexibeast lol
2020-09-29 08:46:55 lukee perhaps ehmry's question is whether there is a mechanism to announce your site structure, like a sitemap.xml
2020-09-29 08:47:25 kevinsan bwt, i love kittens. they are cute af!
2020-09-29 08:48:01 flexibeast lukee: i interpreted it to mean: "Is this technical approach to archiving reasonable from a technical point of view?"
2020-09-29 08:48:18 lukee my own answer to my own question is that gemini is so simple you dont need a sitemap.xml, just parse the gemini
2020-09-29 08:48:56 lukee there should be a kittens.xml at the root of every site
2020-09-29 08:50:57 kevinsan flexibeast: re-read - ehmry asked two questions. the first is unambiguous, the second asks ' and is it reasonable to make content discoverable?'
2020-09-29 08:52:18 kevinsan the questions are fair enough, the subsequent responses were antagonistic, either due to stupidity or trolling. either way, he's first to go, come the revolution :)
2020-09-29 08:53:16 kevinsan and, as with kittens, i am jk!
2020-09-29 08:53:59 lukee I'm glad you clarified that :)
2020-09-29 08:54:35 flexibeast kevinsan: In the context of the second question, which i interpreted as i wrote above, the first question read to me as "What are people's thoughts on the best technical approach to archiving and mirroring?" But i think your own intepretation of both questions seems very reasonable to me.
2020-09-29 08:54:45 kevinsan i just wanted to reassure ehmry, since in my experience people like that are emotionally weak.
2020-09-29 08:55:48 flexibeast The mention of git, a specific technology, was what drove my own interpretations.
2020-09-29 08:56:23 lukee lol
2020-09-29 08:57:48 kevinsan flexibeast: i am willing, under duress, to accept your interpretation as valid and therefore ehmry's response to be more meaningful, if still antagonistic.
2020-09-29 08:57:55 ★ kevinsan is the master of concession
2020-09-29 08:58:13 lukee flexibeast: was your choice of technology that sprang to mind a Freudian slip?
2020-09-29 08:59:20 ★ lukee has an overactive sense of imagination
2020-09-29 09:00:16 kevinsan do you really have a 'sense of imagination' or just an 'imagination'
2020-09-29 09:00:26 lukee yes thanks
2020-09-29 09:00:45 kevinsan omg, maybe *i'm* the antagonistic one... hang on while I have an epiphany
2020-09-29 09:01:18 flexibeast kevinsan: Heh, well, yes, i find "don't care" wrt author wishes to be .... unpleasant at best.
2020-09-29 09:01:33 kevinsan :) i thought that was quite a good little joke. i set it up.
2020-09-29 09:02:02 flexibeast lukee: Sorry, i don't follow .... ? ehmry wrote: "does making git repositories for content discoverable sound reasonable?"
2020-09-29 09:02:24 kevinsan i won't be writing for stand-up, but i may still get a chuckle in a pub.
2020-09-29 09:03:21 lukee well in the context of the slighly antagonistic exchanges above, to suddenly think of a technology called git, is way ahead of itself.
2020-09-29 09:03:22 kevinsan ok, so it's nice and cold out, blue skies forever, and i'm off to get me some vitamin-d
2020-09-29 09:03:22 lukee maybe
2020-09-29 09:03:39 lukee it made me laugh anyway
2020-09-29 09:03:56 ★ lukee is easily amused
2020-09-29 09:04:35 flexibeast Okay, well, i'm lost, sorry. :-)
2020-09-29 09:05:52 kevinsan and ehmry, if you do make a searchable and discoverable git archive of gemini-space, please don't forget to announce it on the mailing list.
2020-09-29 09:06:29 lukee the term "git" is UK slang for a person who is somewhat bloody minded, self-centred and not hugely regarding of social norms
2020-09-29 09:06:57 lukee I think that is why Torvalds called git, git as a sort of joke
2020-09-29 09:07:40 ehmry I don't want to propose to use git explicitly for archiving but some discoverable hint on how to mirror content, it could be rsync as well
2020-09-29 09:08:30 ehmry I bring it up because I've been looking at BBS-style magazines that are indented to be mirrored
2020-09-29 09:08:35 flexibeast Oh i understand that meaning of 'git'. :-) i'm just saying that it wasn't me that brought up git, but ehmry, in the initial questions.
2020-09-29 09:08:43 flexibeast 'intended'
2020-09-29 09:08:51 ehmry right
2020-09-29 09:09:11 kevinsan ehmry: i mean, git's efficient, handles text paticularly well. rsync risks losing/clobbering stuff
2020-09-29 09:09:19 lukee OK we have multiple layers of misunderstanding here. I am on top of the pile
2020-09-29 09:09:44 lukee or bottom, not sure
2020-09-29 09:10:18 kevinsan lukee: it only matters where gravity is involved
2020-09-29 09:10:24 ehmry and caching stuff like news is important, because edits to news that has already been published is news itself
2020-09-29 09:10:34 ★ lukee considers the risks of joining a conversation half way through
2020-09-29 09:11:59 kevinsan ehmry: in every use-case you mention, your git suggestion fits perfectly
2020-09-29 09:12:56 kevinsan if nothing else, but to provide a journal of content evolution that can be used to generate, e.g. searchable information
2020-09-29 09:14:04 kevinsan that is, perhaps you don't use git as the searchable database, but rather the source database. though gemini-space is so small, git would work for either right now.
2020-09-29 09:15:14 kevinsan i think i'm going to use that for a project i'm working on right now. it's a great idea. do you have anything you've done so far that you are demoing?
2020-09-29 09:15:22 lukee Can I claw my way back in to understand what is the suggestion now: to use Git as a way to archive a third party site over time?
2020-09-29 09:15:44 kevinsan just using git to archive and version content.
2020-09-29 09:16:07 lukee your own or someone else's?
2020-09-29 09:16:09 kevinsan i.e. content fetched from a 3rd party server,
2020-09-29 09:16:14 lukee ok
2020-09-29 09:16:32 lukee or better, use Hg
2020-09-29 09:17:04 kevinsan right now, I'm doing a survey of Gemini sites. just the index page of each site, collecting info such as certificate type used, expired state, and the landing page content.
2020-09-29 09:17:08 ehmry lukee: sure, hg is fine, it would just be nice to find a hg clone link if the author wants to make one available
2020-09-29 09:17:58 lukee I'm sure git is fine if you spend enough time with it, I am just sad Hg didn't become the de-facto standard
2020-09-29 09:18:22 kevinsan what i want to do is provide a list of site TLS problems that could impact access, but also apply some heuristics to the front page to figure out how 'active' the site is.
2020-09-29 09:19:09 lukee sounds interesting, but hard
2020-09-29 09:19:27 lukee often the change happens on a sub-page, like the gemlog
2020-09-29 09:20:32 kevinsan yep, really just doing things one step at a time. so, if i calculate a site to be 'stale' but it isn't, i'll evolve it to cope.
2020-09-29 09:20:38 lukee sounds like a perfect application of GPT-3
2020-09-29 09:21:00 kevinsan out of interest, what does Hg have over git that would benefit ehmry's application?
2020-09-29 09:21:10 lukee nothing, just a better UI
2020-09-29 09:22:21 kevinsan ok, i suppose git does feel a bit like hacking an unusually complex filesystem at the sector level.
2020-09-29 09:22:24 ★ lukee is learning the minimal amount of git to survive the outside world
2020-09-29 09:23:53 lukee what are the heuristics you would use to guess the staleness of any page from its content?
2020-09-29 09:24:37 lukee obviously you can just hash the content and compare that, but my sense is you are trying to do something else?
2020-09-29 09:25:33 kevinsan staleness is a bit inaccurate - i'm more interested in identifying "June 2019: this is my new capsule, i'm not sure what to write here. EOF"
2020-09-29 09:26:00 lukee lol, there are quite a few of those
2020-09-29 09:26:15 kevinsan so, number of links, do they link to gemini-space, number of paragraphs, etc.
2020-09-29 09:27:02 lukee whether the current year appears as text on the gemlog page
2020-09-29 09:27:23 kevinsan then push paragraph text through spaCy to pick out nouns/verbs/etc, and use that to further classify the content
2020-09-29 09:27:48 ehmry so I can think of three topics here that can get blurred together, hints for caches (squid-style), personaly archiving, and mirroring static content
2020-09-29 09:27:51 lukee what is the overall objective?
2020-09-29 09:27:54 kevinsan the date was used just to convey that a site has been dormant for a long time, with no meaningful content every having been written
2020-09-29 09:29:04 kevinsan lukee: discovery of interesting stuff, by eliminating 'non-content', and ultimately searching based on NLP processed search index.
2020-09-29 09:29:09 ehmry I'm interested in personal archiving and mirroring, but the mirroring thing is something that it would be nice to have standards and practices for
2020-09-29 09:29:46 ehmry the objective is that nothing dispears which is intended to disappear
2020-09-29 09:29:47 lukee ehmry - what do you think needs to be standardised?
2020-09-29 09:30:49 ehmry an inverse robots.txt?
2020-09-29 09:31:11 kevinsan ehmry: if you wait for standards and practices, honestly I think you'll get nothing done. better just to do it, share it, ask opinions, evolve it.
2020-09-29 09:31:12 lukee like sitemap.xml?
2020-09-29 09:31:46 ehmry maybe, I don't know anything about sitemap.xml, but I remember sitemaps for the early www
2020-09-29 09:32:01 lukee I agree with kevinsan. The mere mention of the word standards seems to bring the gemini community out in hives
2020-09-29 09:32:47 kevinsan lukee: I don't think that's totally fair - if you ask opinions, you'll get them, and they won't all align with yours.
2020-09-29 09:32:54 lukee I would say that gemini is simple enough to be parsed, the content itself is enough. And always up to date
2020-09-29 09:33:14 ehmry if no one else is interested in this I should just shut up for now
2020-09-29 09:33:17 ★ kevinsan means 'yours' as much as 'mine'.
2020-09-29 09:33:24 lukee that is always true
2020-09-29 09:34:01 kevinsan ehmry: we're interested enough to have chatted about it. what i'm saying is go and make something that can be talked about *and* contributed to.
2020-09-29 09:34:18 ★ ehmry needs to read up on the history of sitemaps
2020-09-29 09:34:52 kevinsan if you have some archiving and discovery service that I can use, i'll certainly make time to incorporate my stuff into it, if that's what you need.
2020-09-29 09:37:01 lukee POC > theory
2020-09-29 09:37:58 kevinsan and ehmry, be aware that inaction or silence isn't a reflection of your ideas. Solderpunk runs CAPCOM, I've had a capsule for quite a while and only very recently bothered to add it to CAPCOM. Such is inertia!
2020-09-29 09:39:14 lukee where is Solderpunk - he seems to be on sabbatical
2020-09-29 09:41:24 kevinsan i don't know, i believe s/he is a mythical creature that is rumoured to frequent 'the other dimension' where matter is said to rule
2020-09-29 09:41:27 kevinsan :)
2020-09-29 09:43:22 lukee he managed to exit this realm and decided not to renew his ISP contract
2020-09-29 09:45:32 kevinsan that sentence just provoked the weirdest feeling of wanting to pull the plug on my router. but then I thought 'ah, my phone'...
2020-09-29 09:46:32 lukee and I though, yes I should go and do some other stuff. then realised most of the things I need to do involve replying to emails :/
2020-09-29 09:46:45 lukee such is my exciting life
2020-09-29 09:47:04 kevinsan yeah, well i'm off out in the sunshine mate :)
2020-09-29 09:47:12 kevinsan c ya
2020-09-29 09:47:16 lukee good idea - catch you later
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2020-09-29 12:02:05 rain1 I don't really get this. It doesn't seem like much different than gopher, and I'm not a big fan of OpenSSL so adding this crypto isn't appealing to me.
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2020-09-29 12:35:55 jcowan rain1: In the opinion of Gemini fans (which now includes me), it is just enough "bigger" than gopher to avoid becoming a pile of hacks, but not so big that (like HTTP) it has become a pile of hacks.
2020-09-29 12:36:57 jcowan (I don't care about the crypto either, but I am not obsessed with privacy as many people are.)
2020-09-29 12:37:31 jcowan s/not/not as
2020-09-29 12:39:04 jcowan In particular, it exploits things like URLs and media-types that barely existed when gopher was invented.
2020-09-29 12:51:51 ericonr crypto is often less about the added privacy and more about avoid tampering :P
2020-09-29 12:52:06 ericonr and there are many SSL impls, one doesn't need to use OpenSSL
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2020-09-29 13:29:22 jcowan ericonr: Do MitM attacks against static documents even make sense? Whey would anyone want to do them? I consult documentation pages hundreds of times a day, and it never occurs to me to wonder "Is this documentation really from the server, or am I the victim of MitM?"
2020-09-29 14:27:22 oms "consensus seems to be that archiving would be an impolite imposition on the author's choice to retract"
2020-09-29 14:27:27 oms whose consensus is that?
2020-09-29 14:28:42 kevinsan mine
2020-09-29 14:34:30 ehmry oms: there is no consensus, all the things I've seen against archiving seem to acknowledge that there is no way to stop it
2020-09-29 14:34:43 CoopDot I agree on it being impolite. However, being impolite is sometimes unavoidable
2020-09-29 14:37:26 ehmry I archive nearly all the webpages I find interesting, archiving and retrieving information is half the point of having computers at all
2020-09-29 14:37:32 oms I'm not meaning to ask aggressively, btw, just curious about the norms and where I can read more. (although I do disagree)
2020-09-29 14:37:44 rain1 I am glad archive.org exist
2020-09-29 14:37:50 ehmry since before computers this was the point toring and retrieving information is why we have these damn things anyway,
2020-09-29 14:37:53 ehmry whoos
2020-09-29 14:38:31 ehmry this was the whole point on the memex and xanadu which preceded the web https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memex
2020-09-29 14:40:38 ehmry I already transfer snapshots of pages with friends rather than send links
2020-09-29 14:40:50 rain1 how do you do that? I like that
2020-09-29 14:42:40 ehmry there is a webmemex plugin for firefox https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/webmemex/ https://blog.webmemex.org/
2020-09-29 14:42:49 rain1 oh cool
2020-09-29 14:43:27 rain1 omg
2020-09-29 14:43:30 rain1 when you hilight text on that page
2020-09-29 14:43:33 rain1 it makes it into a # lik
2020-09-29 14:43:35 rain1 link
2020-09-29 14:43:37 rain1 that's so cool
2020-09-29 14:43:46 rain1 this is making me sad about how bad the web is
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2020-09-29 14:44:02 ehmry its nice because all the javascript is executed and then removed when its saved, so the snapshots work in simple browsers
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2020-09-29 14:51:17 xj9 so xanadu is a contemporary of engelbert huh? https://tube.blob.cat/videos/watch/ab1388b9-6180-4be9-9a42-68e57d029915
2020-09-29 14:53:06 rain1 I feel like we should design something that can handle web apps
2020-09-29 14:53:47 ehmry idk, I assum englebert came before, and I think it refers more to the memex then ted
2020-09-29 14:54:17 ehmry englebert was totally into the memex
2020-09-29 14:54:25 xj9 both are ~1960
2020-09-29 14:54:38 xj9 they'd be gemapps though
2020-09-29 14:54:48 xj9 since gemini isn't the web
2020-09-29 14:56:19 xj9 i can see the value of having a simple well-defined way to send information from gemini clients to gemini servers, but there's still the question of the power to weight ratio.
2020-09-29 14:56:25 aravk rain1:if you want web apps go to #html or something
2020-09-29 14:57:53 xj9 then again, something like 9p could be used to expose an interactive filesystem interface without extending gemini.
2020-09-29 15:03:22 rain1 that channel is empty
2020-09-29 15:03:59 kevinsan oms: you would have to scan the mailing list and irc logs to read more, my words above are just my take.
2020-09-29 15:04:26 kevinsan I personally think that there's nothing that can be done to avoid archiving, and so there's nothing to discuss. I also think archiving, search, and processing of information is a great thing. I'm in favour.
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2020-09-29 15:09:19 ehmry xj9: rain1: i think xmpp supports serving apps in some sense, but I've never seen it used
2020-09-29 15:21:32 aravk rain1: then make it if you want; for gemini, 'web apps' are a *non-goal*
2020-09-29 15:21:58 aravk (that's my opinion, at least, but I'm pretty sure it's correct)
2020-09-29 15:34:05 kevinsan here's a very simple app that I think is genuinely useful gemini://gemini.susa.net/vim_faq_command_line.gmi
2020-09-29 15:36:30 kevinsan this sort of 'micro-app' approach uses sort of customised clients to provide some bit of app functionality.
2020-09-29 15:49:26 aravk ok that's pretty cool
2020-09-29 15:49:35 aravk but importantly the app isn't holding any real state
2020-09-29 15:49:41 aravk it's a simple query mechanism
2020-09-29 15:50:08 aravk when I said 'web apps' I meant more complicated and interactive things
2020-09-29 15:50:18 aravk but yes, this kind of thing is pretty sweet
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2020-09-29 16:39:32 mhj Heyo felix
2020-09-29 16:39:38 mhj Hey all
2020-09-29 16:39:56 felix Hello!
2020-09-29 16:40:11 kevinsan aravk: there's nothing to prevent state being used - cgi provides any given client-certificate info. but yes, complicated interactions would be tedious :)
2020-09-29 16:40:16 kevinsan hi mhj
2020-09-29 16:40:34 mhj Talking to y'all from a Rock64 system that I got for $17 off Amazon
2020-09-29 16:40:54 kevinsan Fantastic - how do you rate it?
2020-09-29 16:41:14 mhj Pretty good, with ARMBian on it, it runs like a dream
2020-09-29 16:41:41 kevinsan are you running a WM?
2020-09-29 16:41:48 mhj Yeah, xfce
2020-09-29 16:41:52 kevinsan my fav
2020-09-29 16:42:12 aravk sway ftw
2020-09-29 16:42:26 kevinsan does ARMBian help improve old raspis?
2020-09-29 16:42:58 mhj Hmm, well, it runs a kind of customized Ubuntu or Debian, whichever you prefer
2020-09-29 16:43:30 mhj I think Raspbian is better for Pis
2020-09-29 16:43:55 mhj As far as older Pis go, I think ARMBian could be a good fit tho
2020-09-29 16:44:24 mhj It's easier to setup
2020-09-29 16:46:48 mhj Like I said before a while ago tho, thinking of running a self-hosted Gemini server on it :D
2020-09-29 16:47:08 kevinsan probably the older pis are really limited by the crappy SD card implementation, so no distro would improbe things
2020-09-29 16:48:25 mhj The thing that seperates the Rock64 and other Pine systems is that you can put an eMMC card on them if you want
2020-09-29 16:48:30 kevinsan mhj: you've inspired me to do the same with one of the old pis i have gathering dust
2020-09-29 16:48:57 mhj Nice <3
2020-09-29 16:49:50 mhj Oh, and on the laptops, like the Pinebook Pro, you can install an nvme drive for even better performance
2020-09-29 16:50:03 kevinsan i might make it IPv6 only, and offer virtual-hosting on it for anyone who wants a capsule.
2020-09-29 16:50:35 kevinsan is that like the drives used in macbooks?
2020-09-29 16:50:36 mhj That would be cool
2020-09-29 16:50:42 mhj Yeah
2020-09-29 16:50:54 mhj I think? I've never used a MacBook
2020-09-29 16:51:16 aravk have a macbook, also think
2020-09-29 16:52:17 mhj But I think self-hosting is the best, if you can get it to work for you how you want
2020-09-29 16:54:56 kevinsan self-hosting gives you a lot of freedom to experiment, but it requires some administration.
2020-09-29 16:55:39 kevinsan gemini is so simple that there's an awful lot less to audit/take care of. I can back up everything in seconds, and restoring it would be similarly simple
2020-09-29 16:55:57 kevinsan (e.g. if I got rooted, or some inconvenience like that)
2020-09-29 16:56:32 mhj Very true, that's one of the beautiful things about Gemini
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2020-09-29 16:59:49 kevinsan mhj: i'm thinking about going armbian on this board - were there any gotchas I should know about?
2020-09-29 17:00:09 kevinsan oh, and what server did you use?
2020-09-29 17:05:55 mhj I just started using ARMBian like a few minutes ago lol
2020-09-29 17:06:11 mhj As far as what server, I am using molly brown
2020-09-29 17:06:42 mhj I just compiled it and it runs fine so far
2020-09-29 17:07:59 mhj I should've clarified, what I said above were future plans that I am doing RIGHT NOW lol
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2020-09-29 17:14:10 tildebeast can someone cast a beady eye over my crap guide to Molly Brown in FreeBSD?
2020-09-29 17:14:31 mhj Sure, I run molly brown on digital ocean on FreeBSD
2020-09-29 17:14:51 tildebeast emphasis on the 'really crap' -- not sure if i've filled in the gaps in my memory as I only wrote up some of the notes while setting up...
2020-09-29 17:14:53 tildebeast gemini://envs.net/~tildebeast/technology/mollybrown-freebsd.gmi
2020-09-29 17:15:15 tildebeast plus i'm a freebsd amateur :)
2020-09-29 17:15:29 mhj Uh, lemme get bombadillo compiled on here so I can take a look lol
2020-09-29 17:15:59 tildebeast thanks mhj! hope it doesn't look too grim in a terminal browser :)
2020-09-29 17:16:47 mhj Np
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2020-09-29 17:23:59 lukee I've got molly brown running on an old Pi 1st gen as a test server before I went with a host. Not particularly fast, but fine for testing
2020-09-29 17:24:44 mhj Looks good tildebeast, my only question is why are you mounting a directory in fstab when it's not a device? I thought fstab was only for partitions and devices?
2020-09-29 17:24:46 lukee and if you want to run a pi in the cloud, I can recommend https://www.mythic-beasts.com/
2020-09-29 17:25:40 mhj That's the only thing that threw me off because there was no explanation for it
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2020-09-29 17:38:43 tildebeast mhj -- nullfs allows you to mount a directory elsewhere as another user -- good way to make your files editable
2020-09-29 17:38:54 tildebeast at least that's how it seems to work on my VM :)
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2020-09-29 17:40:13 tildebeast I'll make sure there's an explanation of why in there somewhere. must have missed it
2020-09-29 17:40:29 mhj Oh i see
2020-09-29 17:40:35 mhj Cool :D
2020-09-29 17:40:39 tildebeast does the job :)
2020-09-29 17:40:40 mhj Never knew you could do that
2020-09-29 17:40:52 tildebeast found out by accident a while ago
2020-09-29 17:41:13 tildebeast very similar to a linux bind mount
2020-09-29 17:41:59 mhj Huh, I've done bind mounts before when I was chrooting in NixOS, but that was the first time I ever attempted it.
2020-09-29 17:42:47 mhj I'll have to abuse that and jails in FreeBSD :D
2020-09-29 17:42:54 tildebeast can't remember why I did it last time. might have been either a webroot -> user home dir, or something off a software raid
2020-09-29 17:44:28 tildebeast ah, that's it. i was making webroot in my nginx jail accessible to a user. or something like that. worked well enough.
2020-09-29 17:45:27 tildebeast anyway, thanks for the help!
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2020-09-29 17:49:41 xfnw anyone sucessfully install geminid? i get this error when compiling it https://ttm.sh/hpl.txt
2020-09-29 17:50:42 rb100 is geminid a server?
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2020-09-29 17:52:16 xfnw rb100: yea
2020-09-29 17:52:57 rb100 i can't keep track anymore
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2020-09-29 18:13:23 @tomasino nice reminder that i wanted to work on my superman 4th installment
2020-09-29 18:13:28 @tomasino aka, more content!
2020-09-29 18:20:57 kevinsan xfnw: that looks kinda similar to someone else's issue - are you using the gnutls-openssl layer?
2020-09-29 18:21:15 xfnw yes i think
2020-09-29 18:21:28 kevinsan that os are you building on?
2020-09-29 18:22:33 kevinsan s/that/what, xfnw sorry
2020-09-29 18:22:43 xfnw raspian
2020-09-29 18:22:59 ★ kevinsan is typing, eating cake, and drinking tea
2020-09-29 18:23:04 xfnw tea!
2020-09-29 18:24:30 kevinsan trying to do all three while not getting a sticky keyboard :)
2020-09-29 18:24:46 kevinsan try sudo apt-get install libssl-dev openssl
2020-09-29 18:27:01 @tomasino mmm, cake
2020-09-29 18:27:44 xfnw kevinsan: those were already installed
2020-09-29 18:28:12 kevinsan xfnw: perhaps you need to uninstall gnutls-openssl (it might be shadowing libssl)
2020-09-29 18:28:29 xfnw oh oof, im using that for other things
2020-09-29 18:28:56 kevinsan you can put it back in (usually apt-get remove retains all the configuration)
2020-09-29 18:31:17 kevinsan e.g. apt-get remove libgnutls-openssl27 should only remove the dev stuff for building
2020-09-29 18:32:26 kevinsan there are ways to specify the priority during build configuration (something like pc files, but nothing i've used before), so they can interoperate if used correctly.
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2020-09-29 18:35:11 xfnw lol i guess il use jetforce instead
2020-09-29 18:39:21 kevinsan xfnw: you might also want to check out https://git.sr.ht/~sircmpwn/gmnisrv which is another C server (it uses a configure script, unlike geminid, so might choose the SSL library properly)
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2020-09-29 20:19:36 mhj OK, kevinsan, you kinda inspired me as well. I think I'll run a Gemini hosting service off the Rock64. Should take me about a week to get everything setup properly, maybe less.
2020-09-29 20:20:06 mhj Also apparently ARMBian doesn't work with Pis. I guess it's just for every other ARM board.
2020-09-29 20:22:35 mhj I've already got a name in mind for the group. The Society of Un-adjusted Non-conformists aka SUN. Primarily, I'd like to like to just have those who are interested in programming small programs that are cool, or writers who are into science fiction and weird fantasy.
2020-09-29 20:24:16 aravk mhj: count me in
2020-09-29 20:25:08 mhj Gotcha~ Thnx aravk
2020-09-29 20:30:10 lukee mhj: Is the Society for Un-adjusted Non-conformists affiliated with the Society of Irascible Contrarians?
2020-09-29 20:32:17 mhj lol :P
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2020-09-29 22:46:13 mhj OK, getting my schoolwork finished and then I'll work more on the server :D
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2020-09-30 11:00:01 kevinsan I read recently of someone running their own personal CAPCOM aggregator, fed from the GUS list of feeds. Who was this, and if this is you, would you make it public? :)
2020-09-30 11:22:05 idf sup
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2020-09-30 13:27:22 kevinsan hi idf, how's your hosting service coming along?
2020-09-30 13:33:27 idf its going quite well technically speaking, yet no new people seemed to mail me
2020-09-30 13:33:51 idf im still pleased the server is still running for so many days
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2020-09-30 13:37:49 acdw kevinsan: I'm hoping to get something like that setup on breadpunk ... maybe next week?
2020-09-30 13:37:59 acdw this weekend I'm afk so not then
2020-09-30 13:38:08 acdw oh and it wasn't me who posted that but it's a great idea
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2020-09-30 13:47:37 kevinsan acdw: that's fortunate - thanks! i think Solderpunk's CAPCOM limits the number of entries it outputs, it would be better if it didn't (I mean, the whole content is less than some favicons on the web!)
2020-09-30 13:48:02 kevinsan idf: remind me, what hardware/os did you use for your server?
2020-09-30 14:02:27 idf kevinsan: a raspberry pi 3 B
2020-09-30 14:02:48 idf with raspbian
2020-09-30 14:03:00 sprung it's just debian
2020-09-30 14:03:18 idf ye
2020-09-30 14:03:20 idf gemini://idf.looting.uk/~pi
2020-09-30 14:05:43 sprung nice domain
2020-09-30 14:05:46 idf before you notice the high number of packages, i use the rpi for more than gemini hosting, and debian likes to split packages a lot
2020-09-30 14:21:12 felix A maze of twisty little packages, all different.
2020-09-30 14:38:37 kevinsan sprung: it's my domain - i'm offering subdomains for gemini servers for anyone who wants one
2020-09-30 14:40:03 sprung alright
2020-09-30 14:41:55 idf thanks kevin :)
2020-09-30 14:42:03 idf (again)
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2020-09-30 14:53:04 sprung i might start up a server soon
2020-09-30 14:54:35 sprung especially for this particular thing
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2020-09-30 15:57:51 mhj Hoilo all
2020-09-30 15:58:09 mhj My net connection keeps dropping out :X
2020-09-30 15:59:32 felix O hai.
2020-09-30 16:00:58 mhj hiyo felix, how are ya
2020-09-30 16:01:04 ehmry when was gemini first proposed?
2020-09-30 16:01:41 felix mhj: Eeh. Well enough I suppose. You?
2020-09-30 16:01:51 mhj Same
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2020-09-30 16:03:06 mhj Wasn't Gemini first proposed by solderpunk in 2019?
2020-09-30 16:03:32 felix I think so. Haven't checked.
2020-09-30 16:03:36 ehmry looks like middle of 2019
2020-09-30 16:05:09 felix Sounds about right.
2020-09-30 16:09:56 idf comfy baby protocol
2020-09-30 16:13:59 mhj As far as my own self-hosted Gemini hosting server is going, I've got the firewall in place, along with fail2ban. Now to configure sshd to do key-based auth only, look into getting a eMMC drive for the Rock64 and a domain name. After that, just gotta set up Molly Brown for multiple users, make we have plenty of text editors and everything should be good to go :)
2020-09-30 16:14:48 idf nice
2020-09-30 16:15:11 felix Sounds good!
2020-09-30 16:15:14 idf i got p much all i wanted for my gemini server implemented, i got client authentication included as well locally, but i am not pushing yet
2020-09-30 16:15:37 idf since its a bit more sensible, nim stdlib didn't work on libressl so i made a PR which isn't yet verified
2020-09-30 16:15:52 idf if its not checked i might just push it hacky as it is now
2020-09-30 16:16:03 mhj Cool idf, keep us informed about how everything goes!
2020-09-30 16:16:11 idf thanks!
2020-09-30 16:16:14 idf i will
2020-09-30 16:16:52 idf really started as a small weekend project just serving static files, then i added so many features
2020-09-30 16:17:07 idf luckly i refactored the code in time so its very clean now i would say
2020-09-30 16:17:53 mhj Cool, what are your ultimate plans for it?
2020-09-30 16:19:10 idf ultimate plans would be to get a lightweight, simple to use but featurful server for gemini
2020-09-30 16:19:33 idf im pretty close to that i would say, since all i need to add would be the client side authentication, which i think i implemented nicely
2020-09-30 16:19:47 mhj Do you have a name for it yet?
2020-09-30 16:19:53 idf yes, Geminim
2020-09-30 16:20:07 idf since its made in nim
2020-09-30 16:20:10 mhj Sweet. I like the sound of it :D
2020-09-30 16:20:14 idf thanks
2020-09-30 16:20:22 idf i have a gemini capsule for it if you're interested
2020-09-30 16:20:47 mhj I don't know much about nim atm, I wanna look more into that first
2020-09-30 16:21:18 idf sure, it's a great language actually, i thought of writing a gemlog about it for a while
2020-09-30 16:21:21 idf might do this weekend
2020-09-30 16:22:10 felix I looked into it at some point, since I do a lot of Python.
2020-09-30 16:22:33 idf syntax is similar but its definetly not python
2020-09-30 16:22:41 felix Definitely.
2020-09-30 16:23:14 felix Nim builds easily, is easy to configure and generates small executables.
2020-09-30 16:23:27 idf yup
2020-09-30 16:23:32 felix But it strikes me as a gigantic, overwhelming language.
2020-09-30 16:23:50 idf also great garbage collection, especially now on the development branch
2020-09-30 16:25:05 idf yeah it was kinda hard for me a bit at first too, once you get used to its differences its very natural
2020-09-30 16:25:14 idf also nim macros are great
2020-09-30 16:25:51 felix I don't mind differences. I recently got back into Tcl after a 20-year break.
2020-09-30 16:25:52 mhj Oh btw, one thing about my server, it's not just gonna be Gemini, although that is the main focus. We're also gonna have programming involved, through the use of Nix. So every user can have their own compiler versions and whatnot
2020-09-30 16:26:15 felix Nice!
2020-09-30 16:26:25 idf sounds very interesting
2020-09-30 16:26:54 idf keep me updated, i am interested
2020-09-30 16:27:10 mhj I use NixOS, so I thought "Why not extend it to that server as well?"
2020-09-30 16:27:26 idf i used nixos, and i use nix as a package manager on void
2020-09-30 16:27:29 ehmry mhj: nixos on one of the rock boards?
2020-09-30 16:27:47 mhj Oh nope, just Nix the package manager
2020-09-30 16:28:02 mhj Getting NixOS on a Rock board sounds like a pain to me
2020-09-30 16:28:18 idf i was thinking of a service like this but with freebsd jails
2020-09-30 16:28:26 ehmry could be, I have a nixos arm laptop and it took a while to get running
2020-09-30 16:28:47 mhj You have it on a Pinebook Pro?
2020-09-30 16:28:47 ehmry I had to start with debian and convert it in place
2020-09-30 16:28:59 ehmry no, mnt reform
2020-09-30 16:29:03 mhj Ahhh
2020-09-30 16:29:37 mhj I have a Pinebook Pro, I would like to put NixOS or Guix on it, or Void, but going with Manjaro atm
2020-09-30 16:30:19 mhj I guess I could do a chroot install or something, but I would need to look up how to do it
2020-09-30 16:31:05 ehmry FWIW nixos support molly-brown gemini://gemini.spam.works/~emery/nixos-hosting.gmi
2020-09-30 16:31:20 idf welp, can't compete with that
2020-09-30 16:31:41 mhj ooh nice
2020-09-30 16:36:11 ehmry too bad arm can be awkward to deal with, the boot firmware thing isn't so bad but all this linux forking is awful
2020-09-30 16:43:38 idf yeah its a shame how everything on arm is a fork
2020-09-30 16:43:56 idf i mean everything firmware/low-level
2020-09-30 16:44:13 idf its either closed source or not mainline mostly
2020-09-30 16:49:54 ehmry linux is just fundamentally flawed, if people would accept that we wouldn't have all this vendor kernel crap
2020-09-30 16:52:32 ehmry monolithic kernels suck
2020-09-30 16:55:37 idf indeed
2020-09-30 16:56:01 idf embrace TempleOS
2020-09-30 16:58:38 felix :D
2020-09-30 16:59:27 idf ngl templeos gemini server/client would be epic but i dont think the fork with networking has TLS
2020-09-30 17:00:00 idf https://github.com/minexew/Shrine
2020-09-30 17:00:02 ehmry how much of a libc does templeos have?
2020-09-30 17:00:08 idf holyc
2020-09-30 17:00:31 ehmry I shouldn't even ask
2020-09-30 17:00:42 idf its actually nice
2020-09-30 17:00:54 idf the OS itself uses it as a shell and as a programming language
2020-09-30 17:01:08 ehmry yea, I'm definitely impressed by it
2020-09-30 17:04:01 idf I am also very interested in the HaikuOS project, the kernel is hybrid and it has a very nice API for everything
2020-09-30 17:04:34 idf Audio, GUI, OpenGL, Storage, Printing
2020-09-30 17:04:38 idf everything
2020-09-30 17:04:56 idf i was actually impressed how decent it is on real hardware
2020-09-30 17:05:18 dax haiku <3
2020-09-30 17:05:35 idf even used my wifi card(albeit with a compatible driver, not the actual wifi's driver), for which i was impressed because not many "uncommon" OSes could use my wifi card
2020-09-30 17:05:43 jns have you looked at Oberon?
2020-09-30 17:05:49 dax it's really nice, but the only hardware i have that it likes is a laptop, and i need to be able to lock the screen on my laptops (which haiku doesn't have)
2020-09-30 17:06:04 ehmry I want to use haiku, but I need disk encryption
2020-09-30 17:06:08 idf I heard of Oberon
2020-09-30 17:06:21 jns Oberon (the language) classes are directly callable/usable from the Oberon(the OS) shell as well
2020-09-30 17:06:36 jns so you can alias them to commands
2020-09-30 17:06:43 idf very interesting
2020-09-30 17:07:32 ehmry from what I know from acme the oberon interface is pretty nice
2020-09-30 17:08:17 jns give Bluebottle OS (aka A2) a try some day - it's a pretty extensive oberon distro with lots of nice extra stuff in it, even has an ssh client, a video player, real time raytracing demo,.. it's neat! :)
2020-09-30 17:09:38 idf sounds really interesting, i will give it a try
2020-09-30 17:11:17 ehmry bluebottle site is down for me :(
2020-09-30 17:12:10 ehmry https://github.com/btreut/a2 ?
2020-09-30 17:14:25 jns it moved
2020-09-30 17:14:31 jns http://cas.inf.ethz.ch/projects/a2/repository
2020-09-30 17:15:26 jns there's also an unofficial, but active-ish fork on github: https://github.com/metacore/A2OS
2020-09-30 17:16:38 jns also, bootable iso's here: https://sourceforge.net/projects/a2oberon/files/
2020-09-30 17:17:42 jns (but those are pretty outdated)
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2020-09-30 21:00:42 lukee hi kevinsan: is this the link you were looking for: gemini://carcosa.net/journal/20200929-some-computering.gmi
2020-09-30 21:01:08 lukee about running a local copy of CAPCOM
2020-09-30 21:01:50 kevinsan thanks lukee, that's the one!
2020-09-30 21:05:50 lukee here I'm dealing with my cat, who after a week of wanting to sit on my laptop, mouse and mousemat decided to move away.
2020-09-30 21:06:24 lukee hooray I thought, he leaves me in peace
2020-09-30 21:06:40 lukee only to discover the reason - he puked over the mousemat.
2020-09-30 21:07:35 lukee there is a metaphor in there somewhere trying to get out
2020-09-30 21:09:27 lukee could have been worse I suppose - my thinkpad has a spill screen for light liquid spillages, but cat puke is something else
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2020-09-30 21:10:16 lukee I love him really, but sometimes he is perfectly a cat.
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2020-09-30 21:18:23 kevinsan thinkpad keyboards come out quite easily. probably ok to wash if dried properly, but not a job i'd relish :)
2020-09-30 21:21:29 lukee well he spared me that mercy at least
2020-09-30 21:49:22 ★ lukee remembers to close the lid of the laptop when he is AFK
2020-09-30 21:53:39 lukee I'm getting "server cert is expired" on gemini home page and CAPCOM, e.g. gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/
2020-09-30 21:54:01 lukee is anyone else having problems with it?
2020-09-30 21:56:55 kevinsan yes, on geminaut. brb i'll try a few more...
2020-09-30 21:57:12 lukee I just checked Kristall - same problem
2020-09-30 21:59:19 lukee and amfora. I havent found a way to actually look at the cert, but all these complain it is expired
2020-09-30 22:01:18 lukee lagrange reports the cert expired 14:30 today
2020-09-30 22:02:21 kevinsan yep, gmni, kristall complain - both have a way to proceed
2020-09-30 22:02:46 kevinsan does the gem-get (?) exe that you invoke have a way to be lenient with certificates?
2020-09-30 22:04:12 lukee yes, but it requires to pass in a -i (for insecure) flag
2020-09-30 22:04:31 lukee and I dont have a UI to let the user control that at the moment. I'll add this to the issues list
2020-09-30 22:04:42 lukee in the mean time I've emailed solderpunk
2020-09-30 22:04:43 kevinsan go on, live dangerously, just blanket -i the requests
2020-09-30 22:05:07 lukee I thought I was doing the right thing :)
2020-09-30 22:05:29 kevinsan i think at this stage in gemini's evolution, the convenient thing is more important
2020-09-30 22:05:38 kevinsan i've been pondering this for a few days
2020-09-30 22:06:16 kevinsan i think the default position should be leniency, with the option to be strict, rather than the other way around.
2020-09-30 22:07:14 lukee how would you feel about a warning toast notification when you visited every "insecure" page?
2020-09-30 22:07:30 lukee maybe it is too much
2020-09-30 22:07:45 kevinsan as geminaut implements the messages, it wouldn't be intrusive.
2020-09-30 22:07:50 lukee but you dont have to do anything, it will go away after 5 seconds
2020-09-30 22:09:45 lukee ok I'll look into it
2020-09-30 22:10:05 lukee I'm hoping to get a new build out soon anyway.
2020-09-30 22:11:07 kevinsan with tofu, i can't think of any situation where an expired certificate is cause for alarm. only a changed certificate, yet even that is of no practical concern, right now at least.
2020-09-30 22:11:08 lukee I'm going through the convoluted process of getting a certificate so I can sign the binaries. Hopefully will prevent some of the false positives some anti-virus utils are showing
2020-09-30 22:11:49 lukee well, gem-get doesnt do tofu yet, so neither does GemiNaut
2020-09-30 22:11:52 kevinsan i'd be willing to bet that the false positives are due to the exe you carry as payload
2020-09-30 22:12:15 kevinsan (as an aside, you should include or document the source-code for that)
2020-09-30 22:13:13 lukee I think in my current build it has readmes for each, linking to the source repos
2020-09-30 22:13:42 kevinsan oh right, it's been a while since i looked.
2020-09-30 22:14:40 kevinsan i'd be very surprised if you couldn't find an existing class that implements a client using TLS, to save you launching an exe
2020-09-30 22:15:03 lukee I think there are lots of possible reasons, potentially, such as 1. exe and installer not signed, 2. exe calls another exe, 3, exe within the bundle opens network connection to obscure port, 4. exe is not widely known, 5. exe is not run from "normal" location (fixed by forthcoming installer)...
2020-09-30 22:15:18 lukee phase of the moon
2020-09-30 22:15:54 kevinsan ironically, i don't think i've ever had a virus checker report a true positive, nor even know of this event happening.
2020-09-30 22:16:37 lukee I'm sure you're right about being able to implement a native network layer. But TBH, why on earth can't I build on the good works of others?
2020-09-30 22:16:48 kevinsan i think there's a higher chance of catching a neutrino with chopsticks.
2020-09-30 22:18:08 kevinsan don't ask me - ask the shit-storm of an industry that's constantly eroding computing freedom. and winning unfortunately
2020-09-30 22:18:50 lukee yes (it was a rhetorical question of course)
2020-09-30 22:19:25 kevinsan my answer was similarly rhetorical (or the inverse? i can't quite fathom..)
2020-09-30 22:21:26 lukee the frustrating thing is not only is it hard enough (comparatively speaking) to write alternative software to the mainstream apps, but then you have to go through some ritualistic, expensive and timewasting dance so the self-appointed gatekeepers can permit you to deploy an app on a mainstream platform.
2020-09-30 22:22:05 lukee I thought this stuff was just App store/play store behaviour, but it is effectively everywhere
2020-09-30 22:22:39 lukee the slow erosion as you say of user control of their own machines
2020-09-30 22:26:32 lukee Then again, I remember the time when my mother could install software on her PC. She really benefits from these security layers. So I do see why they are there.
2020-09-30 22:27:01 rmgr Yeah your average normal person is definitely the target unfortunately
2020-09-30 22:27:02 lukee So we all have to do the dance to do anything on a mainstream platform
2020-09-30 22:29:42 lukee I do still appreciate the concept of the PC - a personal computer where the (informed?) user is able to choose what software to run on the OS
2020-09-30 22:30:00 lukee how long will it remain a mainstream idea?
2020-09-30 22:30:01 @tomasino gimme floppies!
2020-09-30 22:30:05 kevinsan the two needn't be mutually exclusive - you can offer comprehensive protection, and the means to circumvent them with adequate safeguards
2020-09-30 22:32:10 kevinsan the only thing stopping me from getting root on my current phone is lack of a 'su' binary. this could have been included, but tucked away until something gets done via ADK
2020-09-30 22:32:34 lukee but apart from the early adopters and motivated tech nerds, end users have been (rightly?) trained to be ultra suspicious of things flagged or even deleted by their security suite
2020-09-30 22:32:39 @tomasino you can't be trusted!
2020-09-30 22:32:50 lukee this is true :)
2020-09-30 22:33:44 lukee At least with open source you can try to show what it is you are building. But normal users just want to press install and be done
2020-09-30 22:37:01 lukee I can only see two solutions: 1: suck it up, 2: depart the mainstream platforms or deployment mechanisms
2020-09-30 22:37:50 lukee and of course 3: moan about it to anyone who'll listen
2020-09-30 22:38:22 kevinsan there's no real choice but to depart the mainstream platforms. Ports 80/443 are polluted beyond redemption. there's stuff there, but it's too sparse to make hunting effective, particularly since our tools for discovery are now part of the problem
2020-09-30 22:39:35 lukee that's fine for the likes of us here in this channel, but it cordones us off from wider society who are the ones to benefit from things like Gemini
2020-09-30 22:41:41 kevinsan that's always been the case. i'd argue that it's easier today for people to get connected in alternative ways than it was, say 20 years ago,
2020-09-30 22:42:50 kevinsan connected *at all* was the alternative thing to do. a whole lot of people didn't care to do that, and that was fine.
2020-09-30 22:44:28 lukee in some ways yes, in some ways no. Certainly agree that the options are wider, but distributing an application on a mainstream platform for normal users is much harder now
2020-09-30 22:44:53 lukee I guess thats another reason why the web and the app stores have taken over
2020-09-30 22:45:27 lukee for the web, you just press OK to Chrome, and the app stores, the software magically appears, ads and all
2020-09-30 22:46:50 alex11 are there any combined gopher/gemini clients?
2020-09-30 22:47:02 kevinsan Kristall does both, for one -
2020-09-30 22:47:14 kevinsan did you want console or GUI?
2020-09-30 22:47:19 lukee what platform?
2020-09-30 22:47:20 alex11 either/or
2020-09-30 22:47:22 alex11 linux
2020-09-30 22:47:45 lukee bombadillo does both I think (vi like keybindings)
2020-09-30 22:48:14 lukee Castor (graphical) does both
2020-09-30 22:48:56 dctrud elpher if you are of an emacs persuasion
2020-09-30 22:55:53 kevinsan dctrud: when are your next dj sessions on tilde?
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2020-09-30 23:08:38 mhj Re: Mainstream approval? Just make an ad-infested browser add-on with crypto-mining implanted in the code somewhere. 100% Play Store and AppStore approved! </s>
2020-09-30 23:13:45 xj9 my plan is to have people install a parasitic operating system which can act as a middleware for creating and running grid applications
2020-09-30 23:13:53 xj9 based off of inferno
2020-09-30 23:13:59 xj9 so i guess i'm doing 2?
2020-09-30 23:14:32 xj9 a parasite disguised as a productivity application
2020-09-30 23:15:18 xj9 the parasite can get signed and all that jazz so it can protect its own programs from the hostile envrionment of corpo operating systems
2020-09-30 23:26:14 acdw hallo
2020-09-30 23:49:42 rmgr Guten morgen
2020-09-30 23:51:35 acdw morgan, gluten
2020-09-30 23:51:46 acdw wait
2020-09-30 23:53:37 acdw :P
2020-09-30 23:53:40 acdw how goes it
2020-10-01 00:02:39 rmgr Can't complain.. Playing with BorgBackup and Backblaze for a diy NAS backup
2020-10-01 00:06:32 dctrud rmgr: snap - borg + rclone->b2 setup is my evening task
2020-10-01 00:07:09 dctrud kevinsan: I don't really schedule streaming on tilderadio, I just go on there on weekends when there's a lull at home
2020-10-01 00:07:50 dctrud kevinsan: most weekends I stream something at some poin on Saturday late morning / early evening US central time. That's as specific as it gets though I'm afraid.
2020-10-01 00:09:49 rmgr I mean to be honest I'm actually at work but I keep going back to my SSH connection on my phone to see how the uploads going
2020-10-01 00:11:23 dctrud heh - I have about 1.5TB and 20Mbps up on this cable... and I can't upload during the day when it's school and work video calls time non-stop
2020-10-01 00:30:29 acdw rmgr: awesome, borg :) I *had* it for a min, then deleted everything on my harddrive :(
2020-10-01 00:30:38 acdw eventually I'm gonig to get an rsync.net account
2020-10-01 00:31:05 acdw dctrud: how does tilderadio streaming work? how do i sign up?
2020-10-01 00:32:56 dctrud acdw: message / mail ben or deepend to ask, and see: https://tilderadio.org/djinfo.html
2020-10-01 00:33:06 acdw awesome thansk:)
2020-10-01 00:33:21 dctrud there are lots of people with scheduled shows, but others like me with an account who jump on when it's free and we fancy it
2020-10-01 00:33:46 dctrud I'm streaming using butt, from analog (vinyl) input, and the instructions on the link work great
2020-10-01 00:34:35 acdw butt?!!!?! lol
2020-10-01 00:34:53 dctrud Broadcast Using This Tool - butt
2020-10-01 00:35:07 acdw OH M G that is funny'
2020-10-01 00:35:08 dctrud https://sourceforge.net/projects/butt/
2020-10-01 00:35:27 acdw that's awesme
2020-10-01 00:35:38 acdw i want to get more into ~sound~
2020-10-01 00:35:51 acdw there's this great DJ on the local college station and her speaking style is grate
2020-10-01 00:35:58 acdw makes me want to do some radio type stuff
2020-10-01 00:36:00 acdw maybe a gemcast
2020-10-01 01:02:56 rmgr I keep seeing the term gemcast around, is that a podcast served over gemini?
2020-10-01 01:05:10 acdw yes
2020-10-01 01:05:13 acdw ben has one
2020-10-01 01:05:19 acdw well...a ben anyway
2020-10-01 01:05:44 acdw gemini://kwiecien.us/gemcast/index.gmi
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2020-10-01 07:16:48 rmgr Anybody else getting cert errors on capcom?
2020-10-01 07:35:12 admicos cert expired here too
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2020-10-01 12:33:22 sprung ey yo
2020-10-01 12:33:37 idf sup
2020-10-01 12:33:44 Cadey morning
2020-10-01 12:33:58 sprung any guide on how to set up a gemini server?
2020-10-01 12:34:56 sprung which ditro should i choose?
2020-10-01 12:35:10 sprung *distro
2020-10-01 12:40:17 idf i dont think a distro really matters, gemini servers are quite simple from what i noticed
2020-10-01 12:40:20 idf anything with tls should work
2020-10-01 12:42:46 sprung brb
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2020-10-01 13:40:15 dctrud hey all. Any idea who runs the vulpes.one proxy if that's public info? Had someone email me at SDF thanking me for it... they thought I'd done it but I've just linked through it on mastodon etc. Wanted to pass on their thanks to the rightful owner.
2020-10-01 13:46:15 felix Nope, sorry.
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2020-10-01 15:54:15 xj9 fuerfuchs? i believe they are on the feddy
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2020-10-01 19:18:07 dctrud thansk xj9
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2020-10-01 20:21:25 mhj sprung: Still need help setting up a server? I'm only familier with JetForce and Molly Brown. I believe the hardest thing is just getting TLS/SSL going if you're not familier with it.
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2020-10-01 20:22:16 @tomasino At 2200UTC, tilderadio and sci-fi radio present Robert A Heinlein's "Universe", the first novella from Orphans of the Sky, performed as a 30 minute radio drama. Come join us for live commentary in #tilderadio.
2020-10-01 20:26:45 mhj Whaaat? A RADIO DRAMA?! I thought people stopped doing those in the 50's. How quaint and cute. Just kidding, this sounds awesome!
2020-10-01 20:27:28 @tomasino it's from the 50's!
2020-10-01 20:27:29 @tomasino :D
2020-10-01 20:27:49 @tomasino my show, Sci-Fi Radio airs on tuesdays and thursdays at 2200UTC and i just replay old 50s scifi radio dramas
2020-10-01 20:28:01 @tomasino right now we're playing through all of X Minus One
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2020-10-01 20:30:46 mhj Ooh cool :D
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2020-10-01 21:12:59 lukee_ mhj: radio dramas - you can hear them every day on BBC radio 4
2020-10-01 21:13:52 lukee_ also in BBC sounds, but not sure how much of that is accessible outside the UK
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2020-10-01 21:21:17 makeworld Apparently I've been disconnected for days, that's annoying :/
2020-10-01 21:21:34 makeworld I gotta up the reconnection attempts
2020-10-01 21:21:55 makeworld Anyway, it looks like the gemini.circumlunar.space cert is expired?!
2020-10-01 21:22:05 makeworld The one on Gemini I mean
2020-10-01 21:22:22 paper it seems like it
2020-10-01 21:22:46 paper is solderpunk around? I haven't seen him lately
2020-10-01 21:24:42 @tomasino doesn't come in much
2020-10-01 21:25:07 @tomasino especially with his digital minimization going on
2020-10-01 21:25:18 paper I mean on the ML and active on his git projects
2020-10-01 21:25:31 makeworld Yikes, I hope the cert gets fixed soon
2020-10-01 21:26:36 paper how does it work? if you create a new cert, what do you have to do for clients to continue trusting it
2020-10-01 21:27:30 jcowan Normally a client cert is created and sent by the server. The client can trust where it comes from because it has already checked the server cert.
2020-10-01 21:29:01 makeworld jcowan I think you are misunderstanding
2020-10-01 21:29:47 makeworld paper: Ideally clients display a warning if the cert changes before the old one has expired, or if the old one did, then they will accept and remember the new one without interruption
2020-10-01 21:30:11 makeworld See gemini://makeworld.gq/gemlog/2020-07-03-tofu-rec.gmi
2020-10-01 21:30:25 paper thanks, I will look
2020-10-01 21:30:35 makeworld Been meaning to send Drew that, since he came up with his own TOFU recomendations that he posted to the ML and stuff
2020-10-01 21:49:11 paper makeworld: great article
2020-10-01 21:49:20 makeworld Thanks! :)
2020-10-01 21:49:28 makeworld Writing an email to Drew now
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2020-10-01 22:13:33 makeworld Lagrange is such a nice client wow
2020-10-01 22:13:41 makeworld https://git.skyjake.fi/skyjake/lagrange
2020-10-01 22:13:44 @tomasino it's very pretty
2020-10-01 22:14:07 makeworld Yeah, and just using SDL
2020-10-01 22:14:14 makeworld I don't have a good conception but that seems impressive
2020-10-01 22:14:36 makeworld Plus it does FTS and history really well, I love the dropdown in the address bar
2020-10-01 22:15:58 acdw6 welp I can't see it at work, will have to check it out at home
2020-10-01 22:16:08 makeworld Too bad
2020-10-01 22:16:21 acdw6 yea
2020-10-01 22:16:24 acdw6 work sucks
2020-10-01 22:16:26 acdw6 (I know)
2020-10-01 22:16:41 acdw6 anyway I started Paint-Tober on Gemini
2020-10-01 22:16:47 acdw6 if you want to join!
2020-10-01 22:17:03 acdw6 gemini://gemlog.blue:1965/users/acdw/1601586609.gmi
2020-10-01 22:27:19 makeworld Ahaha nice
2020-10-01 22:29:51 acdw6 :D
2020-10-01 22:34:06 lukee_ mspaint: so bad, its good
2020-10-01 22:34:15 lukee_ like ascii art!
2020-10-01 22:34:28 acdw6 YES
2020-10-01 22:34:33 acdw6 that's it 1000%
2020-10-01 22:34:48 acdw6 honestly, the new versions of MS Paint, after XP, are garbage
2020-10-01 22:35:06 acdw6 now that I think about it, I wonder if I could get a cracked MSPaint from that leaked XP source code ....
2020-10-01 22:35:12 lukee_ yeah, but its "modern" now
2020-10-01 22:35:54 acdw6 bleh
2020-10-01 22:36:05 lukee_ no need to compile old MSPaint from leaked sources
2020-10-01 22:36:10 lukee_ just use this
2020-10-01 22:36:11 lukee_ https://jspaint.app/#local:cc41ba27a70cc8
2020-10-01 22:36:38 lukee_ MS Paint (classic), in the browser, in javascript of course
2020-10-01 22:36:56 acdw6 :D
2020-10-01 22:36:59 acdw6 awww yiss
2020-10-01 22:37:07 acdw6 oh that PENCIL
2020-10-01 22:37:24 lukee_ and the magnifying glass, with a little glint on it
2020-10-01 22:37:28 ★ acdw6 runs off to Box-Look.org (remember that old chestnut?) to find xcursors that look like mspaint
2020-10-01 22:38:56 acdw6 whoa whoa whoa JS paint saves as PNG? Nah I need that BMP
2020-10-01 22:38:59 acdw6 :P
2020-10-01 22:39:26 lukee_ you could always just do a screenshot and paste into...
2020-10-01 22:39:30 lukee_ MS Paint
2020-10-01 22:39:48 acdw6 :O
2020-10-01 22:39:50 acdw6 D:
2020-10-01 22:40:33 lukee_ I remember fondly when UIs were quiet and muted grey to get out of your way. Its almost as it they realised they werent the centre of the universe
2020-10-01 22:40:42 lukee_ as it -> as if
2020-10-01 22:41:34 lukee_ now everything is ultra branded, custom look and feel, promoting brand awareness
2020-10-01 22:42:04 lukee_ #BringBackWindows2000UI
2020-10-01 22:42:35 acdw6 yes plez
2020-10-01 22:42:44 acdw6 I love those looks on r/usabilityporn for that
2020-10-01 22:44:37 lukee_ Usability, Schmusability
2020-10-01 22:46:22 lukee_ But sadly execs love a bit of bling, so usability got replaced by DesignFadOfTheYear on each iteration
2020-10-01 22:46:38 ★ lukee_ is not bitter and twisted about this
2020-10-01 22:46:43 acdw6 lololol
2020-10-01 22:46:46 acdw6 me neither
2020-10-01 22:46:49 acdw6 ;)
2020-10-01 22:47:09 acdw6 I mean we *are* on IRC, we are two *cool* people
2020-10-01 22:47:38 lukee_ looking for the hole in the dyke to stick our finger into
2020-10-01 22:47:52 lukee_ (that sounds very unfortunate on second reading)
2020-10-01 22:47:57 acdw6 lolol
2020-10-01 22:51:58 kevinsan Speaking of ASCII art, I just finished posting this gemini://gemini.susa.net/raquel_meyers_pixel_art.gmi
2020-10-01 22:54:44 lukee_ amazing. That is proper ASCII art
2020-10-01 22:54:50 acdw6 oh that's awesome
2020-10-01 22:55:17 lukee_ couldnt have a better sound track
2020-10-01 22:56:02 acdw6 awesome, something to listen to @ home
2020-10-01 22:56:06 acdw6 o/
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2020-10-01 23:00:24 kevinsan i know, i love that stuff like that gets made - pretty much just for the art.
2020-10-01 23:08:11 kevinsan makeworld: my paint-tober 2020 entry is complete. after weeks of tireless effort, I present to you https://gemini.susa.net:1993/img/SupremePwner.png
2020-10-01 23:08:39 makeworld Truly inspiring
2020-10-01 23:08:51 kevinsan i'll take my prize now :)
2020-10-01 23:08:54 lukee_ kevinsan: I implemented the option GemiNaut we discussed the other day - if a site has a problem with its cert, show a toast warning, but connect anyway
2020-10-01 23:09:44 lukee_ that is truly grotesque - I like it
2020-10-01 23:09:58 kevinsan yay lukee_, i think it's a good change!
2020-10-01 23:10:51 kevinsan i'd like to say it was what showed up out of random scribblings and a fill, but in reality I agonized over each and every picture.
2020-10-01 23:11:27 lukee_ the fluidity of your line is unsurpassed
2020-10-01 23:11:29 kevinsan s/picture/pixel./
2020-10-01 23:12:10 kevinsan it's all down to the tools
2020-10-01 23:12:33 kevinsan in this case, a slightly sluggish track-point.
2020-10-01 23:12:49 kevinsan or 'nipple' if you were to be so bold
2020-10-01 23:14:21 lukee_ Not to be left out, my contribution is: "Mondrian's migraine" https://i.imgur.com/NIJM3kr.png
2020-10-01 23:15:05 kevinsan pah. that's actually quite visual appealing
2020-10-01 23:15:09 kevinsan loser!
2020-10-01 23:15:27 lukee_ the migraine will come after a while
2020-10-01 23:16:11 kevinsan please no! i hate migraines.
2020-10-01 23:19:08 kevinsan Modrian's style could be used for a kind of steganography. must ponder that - it would be easy to encode numbers in the geometry
2020-10-01 23:22:51 lukee_ hmm yes
2020-10-01 23:25:10 lukee_ lots of modern/geometric art sort of permits that. Like Gravatar auto-user icons
2020-10-01 23:27:34 lukee_ identicons. Auto-icons are something else https://www.london-walking-tours.co.uk/secret-london/jeremy-bentham-auto-icon.htm
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2020-10-01 23:41:39 kevinsan gruesome. i may not sleep tonight
2020-10-01 23:41:43 kevinsan :)
2020-10-01 23:50:34 acdw oh dannnngg kevinsan, that's dope
2020-10-01 23:50:59 acdw lukee aint here no more but that's good too
2020-10-01 23:57:43 kevinsan i know acdw, creative beyond belief. not seen anything quite like it
2020-10-01 23:59:14 kevinsan also, if you follow the link at the bottom of the page, you'll find a guy who does sorta chiptune stuff. his main instrument seems to be the gameboy advance :)
2020-10-02 00:15:53 acdw oh awesome
2020-10-02 00:17:16 acdw wait, kevinsan: bottom of what page?
2020-10-02 00:18:03 kevinsan gemini://gemini.susa.net/raquel_meyers_pixel_art.gmi
2020-10-02 00:31:54 acdw Oh right!
2020-10-02 00:35:51 weeb is gemini.circumlunar.space down or is my browser stupid?
2020-10-02 00:36:02 weeb says the cert is not trusted anymore
2020-10-02 00:38:33 kevinsan weeb: the certificate expired. the client is being a bit strict about this
2020-10-02 00:39:11 wallet has quit (Client exited)
2020-10-02 00:39:26 kevinsan you can get capcom from here for now, if you have an http browser :) https://gemini.susa.net:1993/cgi-bin/proxy.sh?url=gemini%3A%2F%2Fgemini%2Ecircumlunar%2Espace%2Fcapcom%2F
2020-10-02 01:20:35 acdw i'm just now able to listen to the chiptune stuff, kevinsan
2020-10-02 01:21:23 acdw oh yes this is BANGIN
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2020-10-02 02:54:49 makeworld kevinsan: Wow nice proxy
2020-10-02 02:55:06 makeworld Source code up somewhere? In any case you should send it to the mailing list
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2020-10-02 03:30:33 sprung ay
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2020-10-02 04:31:32 sprung any guide on how to set up a gemini server?
2020-10-02 04:31:52 sprung jetforce keeps failing on me
2020-10-02 06:01:47 ▬▬▶ dax has joined #gemini
2020-10-02 06:52:24 rmgr sprung: What's happening?
2020-10-02 09:05:38 kevinsan makeworld: the proxy code is here https://gitlab.com/ksangeelee/gemini
2020-10-02 09:06:13 kevinsan starts from ./http/htdocs/cgi-bin/proxy.sh
2020-10-02 09:07:15 kevinsan it's tailored for my use, but it should be easy enough to customised.
2020-10-02 09:08:35 kevinsan sprung: each server has its own instructions (and capabilities). if you say what OS you're building on, then specific people might be able to offer help.
2020-10-02 09:09:56 kevinsan i'm using Gemserv on Debian, it was easy to bootstrap Rust and build using Cargo, and is quite a light and nice featured server.
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2020-10-02 09:15:23 kevinsan if you have a C compiler, then gmnisrv is even easier to build and run (though it's one of the newest, and does not have cgi support yet)
2020-10-02 09:28:05 aravk tbh idk if Drew will implement cgi support in gmnisrv
2020-10-02 09:39:28 kevinsan aravk: why do you say that?
2020-10-02 09:40:22 kevinsan i ask because I was looking at adding it myself, but i'd want any code to be merged to avoid forking
2020-10-02 09:40:35 aravk kevinsan: you should ask him before adding code
2020-10-02 09:40:39 aravk he has lots of very strong opinions
2020-10-02 09:40:46 aravk will NACK anything that he doesn't agree with
2020-10-02 09:40:56 aravk I've looked at gmnisrv, it's a pretty small codebase
2020-10-02 09:41:18 aravk I don't see him adding something lke CGI support (which is quite a bit of work or requires big dependencies)
2020-10-02 09:41:39 kevinsan lol, i figured that out - but i also resepect his opinion, so it would be interesting to hear objections, if there are any
2020-10-02 09:42:18 kevinsan aravk: basic CGI support doesn't need much (if anything) that isn't part of the standard library
2020-10-02 09:42:57 aravk what standard library
2020-10-02 09:43:34 kevinsan C - e.g. system() call
2020-10-02 09:43:45 aravk some of his objections are just 'this feature is not for my project, if you want it use something else'
2020-10-02 09:44:16 aravk (re: cgi) oh cool, if it's that easy to implement he may just do it
2020-10-02 09:46:57 aravk I've contributed to aerc, sourcehut, and gmni, so I think I have a good idea of his maintainer style
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2020-10-02 10:41:18 sprung uh alright
2020-10-02 10:58:19 sprung i'm compiling gemserv
2020-10-02 11:08:47 sprung hey i have a new update
2020-10-02 11:09:14 sprung cargo refused to build gemserv
2020-10-02 11:10:28 sprung on debian 10
2020-10-02 11:11:00 sprung i may try gmnisrv
2020-10-02 11:16:19 sprung oh well it failed, guess i should do a reinstall, the server itself is messed up already
2020-10-02 11:29:52 sprung anyone have a proper guide or configuration for a Gemini server, on Debian 10 or anything?
2020-10-02 11:48:07 CommunistWolf I'm just running mine, compiled from source, in tmux - like a savage
2020-10-02 12:04:57 kevinsan sprung: just so you know, i had to bootstrap Rust from the official site, rather than use the Debian packages.
2020-10-02 12:05:17 kevinsan it was really easy though - they have a script or something, I forget the details
2020-10-02 12:10:02 kevinsan This is it, from my bash_history: curl --proto '=https' --tlsv1.2 -sSf https://sh.rustup.rs | sh
2020-10-02 12:11:33 kevinsan source $HOME/.cargo/env; cd gemserv; cargo build --release
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2020-10-02 17:32:31 jcowan Are there line-length limits in the text/gemini format (as opposed to the Gemini protocol)? I can't find any mention of them in the documentation: do they exist de facto?
2020-10-02 17:36:44 felix Since lines are supposed to wrap regardless of length, I doubt it.
2020-10-02 17:37:23 ericonr your readers definitely won't thank you for a barrage of text, tho :p
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2020-10-02 17:51:07 jcowan Right, I was just thinking that one text/gemini line per paragraph gives the effect of flowed text.
2020-10-02 17:54:48 felix Exactly!
2020-10-02 17:55:09 jcowan e.g. this email I just received has a graf with 430 characters, flowed into 7 lines of which the longest is 70 characters.
2020-10-02 17:57:30 felix 70 is too short to reflow except on mpbile devices though,
2020-10-02 17:58:53 rb100 my terminal right now is 80 wide, 70 seems right
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2020-10-02 18:36:30 Cadey jcowan: lines should not be longer than memory is large
2020-10-02 18:40:33 jcowan okay, I can live with that
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2020-10-02 21:27:34 CoopDot I was looking at domains for a webring inspired thing for capsules. orbit.space seems to be vacant but looking at the price makes it out of the question
2020-10-02 21:28:02 @tomasino .space are tough
2020-10-02 21:28:15 @tomasino i was gonna do one of those before i ended up with cosmic.voyage
2020-10-02 21:31:52 CoopDot there are .space domain names that are a 100 times cheaper than orbit.space
2020-10-02 21:32:24 @tomasino :(
2020-10-02 21:36:40 CoopDot this doesn't kill my project, I should build it and host it on a sub-domain to one of my short domains
2020-10-02 21:38:02 @tomasino will your project do orbiting?
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2020-10-02 21:45:44 CoopDot orbit is a play on words. "web ring" -> -"web site" +"gemini capsule" -> "circling around in space" -> "orbit"
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2020-10-02 21:46:16 @tomasino ahha
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2020-10-02 22:29:45 weeb why doesnt gemini have inline links?
2020-10-02 22:29:49 weeb pls no hate, im just asking
2020-10-02 22:29:57 weeb seems like a must-have for a network
2020-10-02 22:34:28 @tomasino it was a conscious design choice to limit the parsing logic and simplify document creation
2020-10-02 22:34:38 @tomasino and it only affects gemtext (text/gemini)
2020-10-02 22:34:47 @tomasino you can serve other content types, like markdown, if you prefer
2020-10-02 22:55:19 xj9 line-oriented parsing is really nice
2020-10-02 22:55:31 xj9 imo anyway
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2020-10-02 23:13:02 zephryn i'm split on it, i think inline links are nice for formatting but definitely a bit more complicated to parse
2020-10-02 23:16:35 @tomasino i've been doing it so long on gopher i don't really give it much thought
2020-10-02 23:50:06 admicos so i just made a gemtext to html converter in shell+sed, might be useful to someone here: https://git.ebc.li/admicos/blog/src/branch/main/cmd/gemtext-html
2020-10-02 23:55:03 Dr-WaSabi is it just me, or do others get cert errors when trying to use bombadillo and go to the gemini project page?
2020-10-02 23:55:28 @tomasino yeah, circumlunar's gemini page is expired
2020-10-02 23:55:39 @tomasino i pinged solderpunk about it on fedi, but he's only coming online like once a week these days
2020-10-02 23:55:52 ★ Dr-WaSabi is bummed
2020-10-03 00:49:19 Dr-WaSabi anyone else use bombadillo?
2020-10-03 00:50:03 @tomasino on occasion
2020-10-03 00:50:17 Dr-WaSabi or more to the point, the bookmark add function?
2020-10-03 00:50:36 Dr-WaSabi in bombadillo
2020-10-03 00:51:24 @tomasino nope
2020-10-03 00:51:52 Dr-WaSabi ok
2020-10-03 00:52:05 Dr-WaSabi guess I'll open an issue
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2020-10-03 02:32:50 sprung finally i got gemserv to work on
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2020-10-03 02:58:32 Dr-WaSabi cool
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2020-10-03 03:00:39 rb100 which one is gemserv?
2020-10-03 03:10:11 Dr-WaSabi not sure, but for some reason I have rust in my head. So maybe it's one written in rust. I have hard enough time just getting a working client, so haven't played around with trying to get a server to run yet
2020-10-03 03:12:25 Dr-WaSabi https://git.sr.ht/~int80h/gemserv
2020-10-03 03:12:41 Dr-WaSabi I think thats the offical repo
2020-10-03 03:31:56 rb100 ah, ok
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2020-10-03 06:18:54 ℹ paper is now known as apaper
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2020-10-03 13:34:17 mhj Heyo all~
2020-10-03 13:35:49 aravk hello
2020-10-03 13:35:51 aravk how's stuff
2020-10-03 13:36:56 mhj Just a quick question about self-hosting. Since my pubnix Gemini server will be hosted from my apartment, using a Comcast line, should I something like dyndns or no-ip to get everything pointed to it correctly?
2020-10-03 13:37:51 mhj It's good aravk! How about yourself?
2020-10-03 13:40:32 felix I just finished a thing, and had a nice outing at the park today, too.
2020-10-03 13:41:12 mhj Nice felix!
2020-10-03 13:42:01 aravk pretty good mhj
2020-10-03 13:43:05 mhj That's good aravk, been up to anything lately?
2020-10-03 13:44:55 felix Game ports here.
2020-10-03 13:46:30 mhj What sort of game ports?
2020-10-03 13:48:35 felix Well, for now a crappy old roguelike demo, from JS to the Linux console.
2020-10-03 13:49:42 mhj Ooh, never heard of a port of anything JS to console...
2020-10-03 13:50:03 aravk mhj: was working on some asynchronous event loop concepts, but taking a break and starting over because it got too messy
2020-10-03 13:50:15 felix No? I'd have guessed people do it all the time, what with Node being so popular.
2020-10-03 13:50:36 felix And that sounds advanced!
2020-10-03 13:51:41 aravk that sounds pretty cool felix
2020-10-03 13:51:56 felix Thank you!
2020-10-03 13:59:22 mhj Yesterday, since GOG was having a sale, I bought several PC games. Deus Ex original, Deus Ex Human Revolution, System Shock Enhanced, Life is Strange Complete, Primordia and the Witcher 3. Before that, a few days ago, when they were having another sale, I bought the classic X-Com series in full.
2020-10-03 14:00:39 mhj So I think I'll be gaming for a while lol
2020-10-03 14:02:13 aravk have fun!
2020-10-03 14:04:34 mhj Thanks aravk! But before I do any gaming I want to setup the Gemini server we talked about and get you an account :)
2020-10-03 14:04:50 aravk ooh, yeah
2020-10-03 14:05:52 aravk my goal now is to establish a presence on as many servers as possible and then run a single tmux session on my own server that accesses everything
2020-10-03 14:07:02 mhj Cool! Right now I use a Raspberry Pi 3 running tmux to access everything remotely.
2020-10-03 14:07:23 mhj So then, I can login onto Rpi 3 from any computer in the apartment
2020-10-03 14:10:46 mhj I wish I understood Plan9, because I love the concept as far as making remote things local
2020-10-03 14:11:41 mhj Well, making them appear as if they're local and making everything transparent
2020-10-03 14:12:42 mhj I'm jusy do used to the Unix way of doing things lol
2020-10-03 14:13:19 mhj *just so used
2020-10-03 14:38:23 aravk I've not used Plan9 yet
2020-10-03 14:38:54 aravk my only confusion is how they deal with times when it's not acting so transparent
2020-10-03 14:39:28 aravk I guess I'll find out
2020-10-03 14:39:37 aravk hey, I have a rpi running everything too!
2020-10-03 14:39:42 aravk though moving soon so it's offline atm
2020-10-03 14:40:05 aravk I need to revamp it anyways - running ArchLinuxARM, and it requires some big updates
2020-10-03 14:44:15 login is there a way for you to acquire a yubikey?
2020-10-03 15:05:21 aravk not atm, why?
2020-10-03 15:05:26 aravk login: ^
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2020-10-03 15:26:51 login aravk: it might be a worthwhile investment in "security virtue-signalling"
2020-10-03 15:28:22 aravk hm
2020-10-03 15:28:30 aravk eh
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2020-10-03 16:40:31 login aravk: well, a yubikey is good to store your gpg keys too
2020-10-03 16:40:53 aravk true, I have them all on my laptop rn, and I do want them on their own hardware
2020-10-03 16:41:07 aravk also login, have you heard of nitrokey?
2020-10-03 16:41:13 aravk it's the same concept, different company
2020-10-03 16:41:33 login i have, but i think it isn't that secure
2020-10-03 16:41:50 aravk really?
2020-10-03 16:41:53 login i would choose either yubikey, or solokey (because the latter's input mechanism is also on the key)
2020-10-03 16:42:12 aravk alright, I'll check both out
2020-10-03 16:42:38 login well, the best way to check would be the https://fidoalliance.org/certification/authenticator-certification-levels/
2020-10-03 16:49:42 login You need to buy a Level 3+ product
2020-10-03 16:49:47 login yubikey is only level 1
2020-10-03 16:50:07 login chinese company feitian (who also makes Google's Titan Key on contract) has some Level 2 products
2020-10-03 16:52:37 aravk do level 3+ products even exist
2020-10-03 16:52:39 aravk btw https://www.nitrokey.com/#comparison
2020-10-03 16:52:56 aravk they've got nice pdfs detailing features at the bottom
2020-10-03 16:53:05 ★ tomasino powers up for 6 episodes to get to level 3+
2020-10-03 16:53:18 ★ felix laughs!
2020-10-03 16:58:20 aravk all I want to do is store my 20 gpg keys (counting subkeys) on a secure smartcard-like usb device, is that too much to ask
2020-10-03 16:58:37 aravk really 7, but I am confident it will increase in number
2020-10-03 17:01:05 login do you want cryptographic operations to take place on the smartcard too?
2020-10-03 17:01:18 login do you want the keys to be extractable once put into the key>
2020-10-03 17:01:23 login or only repleaceable?
2020-10-03 17:01:46 login and even then, replaceable via "reset" or only via password?
2020-10-03 17:03:14 aravk hm
2020-10-03 17:03:20 aravk extractable
2020-10-03 17:03:37 aravk I will need to rotate keys as they expire, but I don't want to lose them
2020-10-03 17:04:01 aravk cryptographic operations on the smartcard would be cool, but I don't know if it's possible
2020-10-03 17:04:15 aravk I guess the system would stream the content to the device which would stream back the encrypted content
2020-10-03 17:04:18 aravk sounds very cool
2020-10-03 17:04:22 aravk if it exists, yes that would be awesome
2020-10-03 17:05:06 aravk preferably without an easy-to-press reset eveything button, because I have a habit of pressing buttons ;)
2020-10-03 17:22:52 login aravk: you should be generating revocation certificates as soon as you create the new key
2020-10-03 17:23:01 login and storing the revocation certificate separetely
2020-10-03 17:23:19 login aravk: it is definitely possible to do crypto operations on card -- that's what all smartcards do
2020-10-03 17:23:23 login (that are not bar codes)
2020-10-03 17:23:28 login even payment cards do it
2020-10-03 17:23:35 login "JavaCard" is the name of the platform
2020-10-03 17:23:45 login yubikey also does it on-device
2020-10-03 17:24:19 login ben uses a yubikey
2020-10-03 17:24:27 login but i don't know if it can store 20 keys
2020-10-03 17:24:30 @ben hello
2020-10-03 17:25:41 nytpu my yubikey (i'm not sure which, but it's newer) can only store one gpg key (including subkeys) at a time
2020-10-03 17:26:01 felix o/
2020-10-03 17:26:03 @ben I don't have more than one gpg jey
2020-10-03 17:26:27 nytpu okay mines a yubikey 5 nfc
2020-10-03 17:27:41 @ben I have the nano
2020-10-03 17:27:45 @ben 3 or 4 idk
2020-10-03 17:27:45 nytpu looks like it can store one key/subkey for each of the following: authentication, signing, and encryption
2020-10-03 17:27:53 @ben sounds right
2020-10-03 17:53:51 login that's awful
2020-10-03 17:53:54 login not 20
2020-10-03 17:54:09 login each service should get a different key
2020-10-03 17:54:20 login so there is no inter-service public-key correlation
2020-10-03 17:54:31 login same with "device id" in FIDO2
2020-10-03 17:54:58 aravk yeah it's not great
2020-10-03 17:54:59 login Apple creates a new device ID almost like an HD wallet
2020-10-03 17:55:25 login so there is a device seed, but the device ids cannot be correlated without the device seed
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2020-10-03 20:04:30 lukee good evening my fellow gopherweb, I mean gemini, siblings
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2020-10-03 20:33:12 @tomasino heh
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2020-10-03 21:06:03 zephryn greetings!
2020-10-03 21:12:12 aravk you know what would be interesting
2020-10-03 21:12:15 aravk oh hi zephryn
2020-10-03 21:12:27 aravk running a headless server somewhere with the gpg keys
2020-10-03 21:12:50 aravk locked into a single user (700 mask and everything)
2020-10-03 21:13:01 aravk and you make a custom server speaking a custom protocol
2020-10-03 21:13:06 aravk for gpg over the air
2020-10-03 21:13:23 aravk so you send the server instructions on what to do with the keys
2020-10-03 21:13:27 aravk e.g. encrypt something
2020-10-03 21:13:35 aravk the server will do it on its end and return the result
2020-10-03 21:14:04 aravk this works even for large amounts of stuff to encrypt/decrypt because of how pgp works
2020-10-03 21:14:21 aravk when encrypting stuff, the data is actually encrypted to a shorter passphrase, which is actually encrypted using the key
2020-10-03 21:14:33 kevinsan yah, rejoice! gemini.circumlunar's certificate has risen :)
2020-10-03 21:14:35 aravk so the server only needs to generate the key, and the client can do 90% of all the work
2020-10-03 21:15:29 aravk this way you can store as many keys as you want in any configuration
2020-10-03 21:15:36 aravk plus there's no chance of losing the keys
2020-10-03 21:15:55 aravk login: thoughts on above idea?
2020-10-03 21:25:29 lukee I came across a gemini site, almost entirely written in (simple) html. How will clients deal with that?
2020-10-03 21:26:15 aravk depends on the client lukee
2020-10-03 21:26:34 aravk some will display it as plain text and so the readers will have to parse it themselves
2020-10-03 21:26:40 aravk other will render the html
2020-10-03 21:27:07 lukee it seems a challenge to the orthodoxy of using gemtext, but perfectly within spec
2020-10-03 21:27:10 aravk some will not even try to display it and will offer to save it to be viewed with a different program
2020-10-03 21:27:12 kevinsan lukee: what's the URL?
2020-10-03 21:27:27 aravk others will just break ;)
2020-10-03 21:27:30 zephryn some clients also just direct it to whatever program is used for .html files yeah
2020-10-03 21:27:42 lukee gemini://mayvaneday.art/
2020-10-03 21:27:57 lukee some interesting writing in there on the blog
2020-10-03 21:29:17 lukee for example on this page gemini://mayvaneday.art/archive/blog/index.html
2020-10-03 21:29:23 zephryn it's strange seeing html through gemini haha
2020-10-03 21:31:07 zephryn i do think it'd be interesting seeing something like markdown uesd as a middle ground between html and gemtext
2020-10-03 21:31:10 kevinsan lukee: I can't read with Geminaut till you release the certificate tolerance change
2020-10-03 21:31:40 kevinsan but I'm thinking Geminaut could render the html anyway, right?
2020-10-03 21:32:00 lukee yeah sorry! the next version of GemiNaut has html rendering (by converting to gemtext) and simple websites
2020-10-03 21:33:18 aravk oh that's cool lukee
2020-10-03 21:34:05 lukee https://imgur.com/a/2hWCQHa
2020-10-03 21:34:06 kevinsan yeah, i had a quick squizz at the changelog yesterday.
2020-10-03 21:35:07 lukee I'm waiting for some technical support to be able to get my software signing capabilities working. Hopefully that will reduce some of the false positives from the AV utilities
2020-10-03 21:35:15 lukee hope to get it out later this week
2020-10-03 21:35:43 lukee I tried Kristall - it works fine on html pages as it has a simple html renderer
2020-10-03 21:36:20 lukee Do any other clients make any attempt to do something sensible with html?
2020-10-03 21:36:45 lukee If you are on the command line, does your client fire the html file into lynx or similar?
2020-10-03 21:37:36 zephryn av98 seems to try to use lynx by default
2020-10-03 21:37:38 @tomasino i didn't enable html in kristall, so it kicks me to firefox
2020-10-03 21:38:19 @tomasino that's for http stuff, though
2020-10-03 21:38:26 @tomasino i haven't tried html content on gemini://
2020-10-03 21:38:26 lukee but still if the hypertext page is launched into some external app, you will struggle to follow any embedded gemini links I guess
2020-10-03 21:38:37 @tomasino if it displays at all
2020-10-03 21:39:59 kevinsan lukee: the articles are kinda funny, it's interesting to ponder what's behind such hostility.
2020-10-03 21:40:03 zephryn also *used, i'm a few minutes in and i already made a typo :P
2020-10-03 21:40:19 zephryn yeah the articles certainly seem interesting
2020-10-03 21:40:43 kevinsan i'm honestly quite baffled why anyone would go to such lengths to deride stuff and people.
2020-10-03 21:41:04 lukee an interesting counterpoint to some of the standard gemini orthodoxy. I appreciate it, even if the tone is a bit contrarian at times
2020-10-03 21:41:18 zephryn i never sensed that such hard views about gemini only being used for gemtext were really prevalent on the mailing list
2020-10-03 21:41:37 zephryn i can agree, it's good to see other views on stuff
2020-10-03 21:41:44 @tomasino the spec says clients must support gemtext as the baseline. that's about it on the subject
2020-10-03 21:42:17 kevinsan that ^^ since it doesn't preclude any other content being served.
2020-10-03 21:42:37 lukee I think there is some meat in the discussion about what to do if gemtext isnt enough for what you want, but you still want hypertext
2020-10-03 21:42:48 lukee over gemini
2020-10-03 21:43:24 lukee one argument that is trotted out is "use something else, like html"
2020-10-03 21:43:44 zephryn i've always felt like something closer to plain markdown would be a good solution
2020-10-03 21:43:57 lukee but if there is no actual support for html, its a sort of fake response
2020-10-03 21:44:05 lukee same for markdown
2020-10-03 21:45:26 lukee for other formats, it seems much simpler (like pdf or images) as these are self-contained binaries that just launch in whatever app you have associated with that mime type
2020-10-03 21:46:00 lukee but hypertext formats like md and html, require a hypertext runtime to make the links work
2020-10-03 21:46:26 zephryn as in, having them parsed correctly?
2020-10-03 21:46:29 lukee yes
2020-10-03 21:46:44 lukee for example to resolve relative links and make links active
2020-10-03 21:47:31 kevinsan would many people have bothered to write a browser if the syntax were more complex. more importantly, how many existing developers want to continue developing and releasing new versions?
2020-10-03 21:48:27 lukee that is true kevinsan, but it does mean the statement "use html if you dont like gemtext" is sort of moot
2020-10-03 21:48:28 kevinsan (i mean, that's not my objection to making things more complex, but it's a valid question, from a practical prespective)
2020-10-03 21:49:33 lukee my personal route through this question is to render html back to gmi, within the client. Then use the standard gemtext rendering engine
2020-10-03 21:50:45 lukee but I dont get the impression many other clients try to do anything with md or html beyond shooting the content to another ap
2020-10-03 21:50:49 kevinsan i just link to an http server when I want to serve something http, i'd never consider serving html over port 1965. for all the reasons you mention
2020-10-03 21:51:15 lukee sorry, forgot to mention again, that Kristall does a sterling job
2020-10-03 21:51:51 lukee also diohsc has an architecture that lets you plug in alternative renderers for other mime types
2020-10-03 21:52:25 lukee so you can plug in something like html2gmi or similar https://github.com/LukeEmmet/html2gmi
2020-10-03 21:53:04 zephryn that's actually a pretty neat way to handle it :o
2020-10-03 21:53:35 lukee I think the author of diohsc also uses pdf2text to handle pdf
2020-10-03 21:53:52 zephryn i do think that it should be the client and/or user's decision how non-essential file types should be handled
2020-10-03 21:56:39 lukee text/html is the 5th most seen mime type in the geminiverse
2020-10-03 21:56:40 lukee gemini://gus.guru/statistics
2020-10-03 21:56:51 lukee way before markdown
2020-10-03 22:00:43 kevinsan and gemtext is number 3 in the list of pages served via Gemini servers :)
2020-10-03 22:01:15 lukee yeah thats strange - it used to be #1, I think some servers joined recently with a whole shed load of legacy text files
2020-10-03 22:01:18 kevinsan i wonder if text/plain is just gemtext being misdescribed
2020-10-03 22:01:53 kevinsan oh really? do you happen to know what they were serving (i'm guessing gopher content)
2020-10-03 22:02:42 lukee I think one of them had a mirror of http://textfiles.com/internet/
2020-10-03 22:03:28 lukee beyond that I don't know. I guess you can probably ask GUS just to return text/plain and see what comes back
2020-10-03 22:05:28 lukee gemini://gus.guru/search?content_type%3Atext%2Fplain
2020-10-03 22:05:46 lukee Page 1 of 2816
2020-10-03 22:07:50 kevinsan :) thanks, yes - there's a lot of small files. indexing and search is a tough thing to keep on top of
2020-10-03 22:10:14 kevinsan curiously, GUS is actually giving back text/gemini results for that search criterion
2020-10-03 22:10:38 kevinsan i think it's a bit confused (e.g. see page 350)
2020-10-03 22:10:46 lukee you got that far :)
2020-10-03 22:11:57 kevinsan actually, see page 200 (there would have been no page 350, so not sure exactly what i was looking at)
2020-10-03 22:14:41 lukee yes I think you're right. Somewhat reassuring that gemtext is perhaps still #1. checking other pages of results at random suggests there is some mis-classification by GUS somewhere
2020-10-03 22:14:48 lukee e.g. gemini://gus.guru/search/502?content_type%3Atext/plain
2020-10-03 22:16:27 lukee in fact those mime filters in GUS are not working at all
2020-10-03 22:17:21 lukee well, they are partially working
2020-10-03 22:17:50 kevinsan i'm getting mixed results - sometimes 2800 pages, sometimes ~6500. something's wrong. I notice it's not urlencoding the '/' in text/gemini of the query parameter
2020-10-03 22:18:26 kevinsan but it is clearly getting the full string, so probably irrelevant.
2020-10-03 22:24:06 lukee there's some weird stuff going in GUS
2020-10-03 22:24:32 lukee for example searching for content_type:application/pdf to return PDFs
2020-10-03 22:24:40 lukee has 175 pages
2020-10-03 22:24:51 lukee page 63 is still returning pdfs
2020-10-03 22:24:53 lukee gemini://gus.guru/search/63?content_type%3Aapplication/pdf
2020-10-03 22:25:07 lukee but on subsequent pages it starts returning other stuff
2020-10-03 22:25:18 lukee gemini://gus.guru/search/64?content_type%3Aapplication/pdf
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2020-10-04 01:48:06 ★ Dr-WaSabi ponders the idea of a gemini client for a kindle?
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2020-10-04 02:22:35 boringcactus hmmm do i want to port my blog from markdown to gemtext and serve all of it on gemini, or do i want to work on a https://hub.docker.com/r/jwilder/nginx-proxy equivalent for gemini. questions, questions..
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2020-10-04 06:22:37 epoch except is my title/shortener bot
2020-10-04 06:22:44 epoch hopefully it won't be annoying in here.
2020-10-04 06:23:21 epoch it will get the "title" for gemini links too :)
2020-10-04 06:23:33 epoch and the shortener can be used over gemini
2020-10-04 06:23:44 epoch gemini://gus.guru/statistics
2020-10-04 06:23:44 ℹ Notice(except): hxxini://gus.guru/statistics https://epo.k.vu/bc96 || gemini://epo.k.vu/bc96
2020-10-04 06:23:59 ℹ Notice(except): title: GUS - Gemini Universal Search
2020-10-04 06:24:24 epoch (it looks for the first header line and strips the leading #s)
2020-10-04 06:24:33 epoch only for text/gemini
2020-10-04 06:24:43 epoch gemini://gemini.thebackupbox.net/floppy.hackvr
2020-10-04 06:24:43 ℹ Notice(except): hxxini://gemini.thebackupbox.net/floppy.hackvr https://epo.k.vu/002d || gemini://epo.k.vu/002d
2020-10-04 06:24:49 ℹ Notice(except): title: application/hackvr
2020-10-04 06:24:58 epoch it'll output the content-type if it isn't text/gemini
2020-10-04 06:25:48 epoch (for gemini links. it attempts to get a <title> for http links)
2020-10-04 06:26:34 epoch no support yet for html over gemini or gemini over http
2020-10-04 06:29:22 epoch just saw /someone/ connect to my gemini server
2020-10-04 06:43:50 epoch gemini://gemini.thebackupbox.net/invaders.img
2020-10-04 06:43:50 ℹ Notice(except): hxxini://gemini.thebackupbox.net/invaders.img https://epo.k.vu/fae1 || gemini://epo.k.vu/fae1
2020-10-04 06:43:54 ℹ Notice(except): title: application/x86-image
2020-10-04 07:07:21 epoch I know it is something or someone in this channel sending requests to my server.
2020-10-04 07:07:45 epoch saw a request for epo.k.vu/bc96 and this is the only channel that link was posted
2020-10-04 07:08:58 epoch "The Lounge IRC Client"
2020-10-04 07:09:23 epoch somebody's IRC client is autofetching links?
2020-10-04 07:09:55 dax i think The Lounge does that, yeah
2020-10-04 08:36:40 ehmry I might be responsible for gus statistics showing more text files then gemini
2020-10-04 08:42:29 ehmry gemini://gemini.spam.works/mirrors/textfiles
2020-10-04 08:42:29 ℹ Notice(except): hxxini://gemini.spam.works/mirrors/textfiles https://epo.k.vu/fa97 || gemini://epo.k.vu/fa97
2020-10-04 08:42:31 ℹ Notice(except): title: gemini://gemini.spam.works/mirrors/textfiles/
2020-10-04 08:47:30 aravk ?A
2020-10-04 08:48:24 login aravk: i read it
2020-10-04 08:48:37 login my thoughts are -- it already exists, and is called a hardware security module
2020-10-04 08:48:47 aravk hm
2020-10-04 08:48:48 login it's used in big companies to store secrets such as Apple's or Microsoft's signing keys
2020-10-04 08:49:01 login on which millions if not a billion devices depend
2020-10-04 08:49:34 login and the second thing is, the symemtric encryption part should not involve sending the symmetric key out of the server
2020-10-04 08:49:57 login because temporary storage of the symmetric key on the client could make it vulnerable
2020-10-04 08:50:16 login anybody who finds the symmetric key doesn't need to use pgp to decrypt ciphertext to get the symmetric key
2020-10-04 08:51:16 aravk either the client has the symmetric key or the server has to do all the encryption/decryption
2020-10-04 08:51:36 aravk the latter doesn't scale for large amounts of stuff being encrypted/decrypted
2020-10-04 08:52:38 aravk and in ordinary scenarios (i.e. where the client has the keys) the client would be doing the encryption work anyways and such would of course need and use the symmetric key
2020-10-04 08:53:15 aravk in order for the client to even access the encryption/decryption capabilities of the server it should be verified and trusted
2020-10-04 08:53:40 aravk which means that it is assumed to be at least somewhat secure
2020-10-04 08:59:49 login the server shouldn't be used to encrypt mass amounts of data
2020-10-04 08:59:57 login it would be for authentication purposes right
2020-10-04 09:00:05 login like an internet GPG agent
2020-10-04 09:03:30 aravk I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say
2020-10-04 09:22:12 login neither do i
2020-10-04 09:22:17 login the server holds the pgp key
2020-10-04 09:22:24 login but the symmetric key is supplied to it by the client?
2020-10-04 09:22:39 login or the server generates the symmetric key and then encrypts it and sends it to the client?
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2020-10-04 09:44:48 aravk yeah, the client provides the symmetric key
2020-10-04 09:44:54 aravk because it will need it to actually encrypt the data
2020-10-04 09:45:00 aravk the server is only encrypting the symmetric key
2020-10-04 09:59:37 login i see, i understand now
2020-10-04 09:59:51 login what about using a double-ratchet algorithm?
2020-10-04 10:03:56 aravk how would that work/help?
2020-10-04 10:07:41 login it will ensure perfect forward secrecy between the client and server communications
2020-10-04 10:09:18 aravk I'm picturing my protocol to contain absolutely no authentication of clients and servers or secrecy and encryption in client-server communications
2020-10-04 10:11:02 aravk but of course servers would host it over some secure protocol, e.g. SSH
2020-10-04 10:11:10 aravk but I'm still figuring this side out
2020-10-04 10:11:21 aravk I don't want to reimplement authentication and encryption and consequently get it wrong
2020-10-04 10:15:47 aravk also, if I'm understanding correctly, a double ratchet algorithm is essentially using a second Diffie-Helman round to renew session keys on every message, even if the message is meant to be encrypted
2020-10-04 10:16:31 aravk that way even if the attacker compromises a session key from one interaction they are still unable to calculate the next session key
2020-10-04 10:58:39 login ^ if they miss any message in between
2020-10-04 10:58:58 login the session key is also asymmetric
2020-10-04 10:59:38 login *the second DH round uses another pair of asymmetric keys
2020-10-04 10:59:42 aravk yeah
2020-10-04 11:00:32 aravk my point is that I don't want to have to deal with all of this in my protocol
2020-10-04 11:00:57 aravk I'd rather servers serve this protocol on top of whatever secure communication schemes already exist
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2020-10-04 12:50:50 @tomasino i saw cat mention konpeito was back up
2020-10-04 12:50:58 @tomasino but now it looks down to me
2020-10-04 12:51:07 @tomasino anyone have any luck catching the fall tape?
2020-10-04 12:51:30 felix I'm not sure what you're talking about. :)
2020-10-04 13:01:52 @tomasino it's getting debugged now. cat switched from jetforce to molly brown, but something still crashed
2020-10-04 13:03:25 felix Fingers crossed.
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2020-10-04 13:20:06 ~tiwesdaeg gemini and stability ;P
2020-10-04 13:20:21 ~tiwesdaeg I think gemserv crashes every couple of weeks
2020-10-04 13:21:19 felix Well, all this software is still very new.
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2020-10-04 13:39:11 felix \o
2020-10-04 13:52:13 sprung gemserv runs fine on my box
2020-10-04 13:52:23 sprung perhaps it might crash sometimes :P
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2020-10-04 18:02:12 kevinsan i've run Gemserv for months. it has never crashed, nor failed in any way. Compiled from source and running on Debian 9, rust installed via rustup, on x86.
2020-10-04 18:03:33 kevinsan if anyone's having problems with Gemserv and needs more details on my envoronment to compare (e.g. library versions, etc.), feel free to message me.
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2020-10-04 18:15:17 felix o/
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2020-10-04 18:25:35 lukee_ evening folks
2020-10-04 18:32:09 felix Hello!
2020-10-04 18:32:19 felix Sorry, I was just going. How are you?
2020-10-04 18:33:23 felix Anyway, see you!
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2020-10-04 23:46:10 lkhd Sounds like Gemserv is the way to go then
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2020-10-05 02:25:28 zephryn what thoughts are there regarding using quic with gemini?
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2020-10-05 12:38:30 boringcactus im gonna start working on Another Goddamn Static Site Generator in a bit, and as a component of that i've built https://git.sr.ht/~boringcactus/md2gemtext
2020-10-05 12:38:30 ℹ Notice(except): hxxps://git.sr.ht/~boringcactus/md2gemtext https://epo.k.vu/e529 || gemini://epo.k.vu/e529
2020-10-05 12:38:33 ℹ Notice(except): title: ~boringcactus/md2gemtext - sourcehut git
2020-10-05 12:39:33 boringcactus instead of rewriting all my old blog posts to be gemtext, i think it'd make more sense to keep them in markdown and translate to gemtext
2020-10-05 12:47:54 login time to find a markdown2gemtext converter
2020-10-05 12:48:06 boringcactus i mean. that's the thing i just wrote
2020-10-05 12:50:05 login oh, i see
2020-10-05 12:50:17 login i thought by translate you meant manually translate
2020-10-05 12:50:22 boringcactus nah
2020-10-05 12:50:31 login oh, i didn't scroll up and see md2gemtext
2020-10-05 12:52:34 boringcactus i know some people manually write both a markdown and a gemtext file, but why would i want two sources of truth for everything when i can simply not do that
2020-10-05 13:03:01 login true
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2020-10-05 13:53:27 aravk since gemtext has fewer features, wouldn't it be better to write the original in gemtext and then convert to markdown?
2020-10-05 13:53:53 aravk or does the md2gemtext converter automagically extract links etc. from lines and put them on their own lines and stuff
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2020-10-05 15:36:44 xj9 it can, depends on flags
2020-10-05 15:36:55 xj9 that's what I used to convert my site to gemini
2020-10-05 15:37:58 xj9 though I didn't realize until I was half way though doing manual touch ups that this was the case
2020-10-05 15:48:57 jcowan What's the general best practice for such link extraction. Are they marked with footnote numbers? And where do the footnotes go?
2020-10-05 15:51:53 aravk what I would do is put the link lines immediately after the first paragraph that mentions them
2020-10-05 15:52:00 aravk and optionally again after other paragraphs that mention them
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2020-10-05 16:46:46 jcowan A paragraph being delimited with a blank line here?
2020-10-05 16:49:03 aravk yeah
2020-10-05 16:49:31 aravk but I mean typical paragraphs in Gemtext are single hard lines which get automatically wrapped
2020-10-05 16:49:55 aravk so the blank line is not strictly necessary, but it provides good visual indication that the paragraph is finished
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2020-10-05 17:14:05 xj9 ^
2020-10-05 17:14:39 xj9 i've started using names instead of numbers though because its a pain to renumber everything when stuff changes.
2020-10-05 17:19:21 jcowan Good point, you can have indented-first-line paragraphs too.
2020-10-05 17:19:40 jcowan Names for footnotes?
2020-10-05 17:21:33 xj9 names for footnotes yes
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2020-10-05 17:26:42 aravk I generally don't even use footnotes, I just use the link name as a good enough indication that it refers to something from the previous paragraph
2020-10-05 17:27:06 aravk e.g. I'll refer to the 'self-pipe trick' in a paragraph and follow it up with a link where the link text is 'The self-pipe trick'
2020-10-05 17:27:19 aravk though that's harder to do automatically
2020-10-05 17:42:50 ★ jcowan nods
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2020-10-05 18:41:14 lukee jcowan: numbered links is one approach, quite widely used in gopher text files to cite links. Using square brackets to mark the place within the line of the citation, followed by the list of links numbered
2020-10-05 18:42:40 lukee you can also make some decisions about the frequency of emitted links. If you emit them after each paragraph the document can feel a bit fragmented, on the other hand if you leave them all to the end of the page, the user has to scroll up and down the document
2020-10-05 18:42:45 jcowan That's what I had in mind in the first place, yes. But named links in the style of "(Chabon 1995)" are pretty good too.
2020-10-05 18:43:27 lukee yes - the basic problem is how to mark the citation within the text, or not to bother
2020-10-05 18:44:58 lukee I have published a utility html2gmi which offers various options you can tailor (numbered links or not, citation markers or not etc) https://github.com/LukeEmmet/html2gmi
2020-10-05 18:44:59 ℹ Notice(except): hxxps://github.com/LukeEmmet/html2gmi https://epo.k.vu/71e4 || gemini://epo.k.vu/71e4
2020-10-05 18:45:02 ℹ Notice(except): title: GitHub - LukeEmmet/html2gmi: A command line application to convert HTML to GMI (Gemini text/gemini)
2020-10-05 18:47:56 lukee Also in the upcoming release of my own client GemiNaut, I also wire up the link citations in the text to point to the URL of the link - it is better in my opinion where the link density is high - for example when translating some web pages with many links
2020-10-05 18:48:46 lukee (and then not show the link itself) e.g. https://imgur.com/a/2hWCQHa
2020-10-05 18:48:47 ℹ Notice(except): hxxps://imgur.com/a/2hWCQHa https://epo.k.vu/5012 || gemini://epo.k.vu/5012
2020-10-05 18:48:49 ℹ Notice(except): title: Imgur: The magic of the Internet
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2020-10-05 19:23:34 boringcactus aravk, md2gemtext also just uses the link text as enough of an indication
2020-10-05 19:24:16 aravk ah that's cool boringcactus
2020-10-05 19:30:20 boringcactus for example, https://git.sr.ht/~boringcactus/md2gemtext/tree/main/README.md?view-source turns into https://git.sr.ht/~boringcactus/md2gemtext/tree/main/README.gmi
2020-10-05 19:30:20 ℹ Notice(except): hxxps://git.sr.ht/~boringcactus/md2gemtext/tree/main/README.md?view-source https://epo.k.vu/991f || gemini://epo.k.vu/991f
2020-10-05 19:30:23 ℹ Notice(except): title: ~boringcactus/md2gemtext: README.md - sourcehut git
2020-10-05 19:30:23 ℹ Notice(except): hxxps://git.sr.ht/~boringcactus/md2gemtext/tree/main/README.gmi https://epo.k.vu/5045 || gemini://epo.k.vu/5045
2020-10-05 19:30:25 ℹ Notice(except): title: ~boringcactus/md2gemtext: README.gmi - sourcehut git
2020-10-05 19:32:41 aravk who runs the except bot again?
2020-10-05 19:32:57 aravk It seems to be replacing https:// with hxxps://
2020-10-05 19:32:58 ℹ Notice(except): hxxps:// https://epo.k.vu/f8ea || gemini://epo.k.vu/f8ea
2020-10-05 19:33:26 aravk which is a strangely weird bug (if it is a bug)
2020-10-05 19:34:06 autumnova That would be epoch.
2020-10-05 19:36:15 boringcactus iirc it does something similar for gemini:// links
2020-10-05 19:36:15 ℹ Notice(except): hxxini:// https://epo.k.vu/0ec6 || gemini://epo.k.vu/0ec6
2020-10-05 19:36:44 aravk what
2020-10-05 19:37:24 aravk so it just writes 'hxx' to the first three characters of the scheme name
2020-10-05 19:37:56 aravk epoch - bug ^
2020-10-05 19:45:02 @tomasino Why am I getting a bunch of notices
2020-10-05 19:47:04 jrhorn424 tomasino: looks like I'm getting notifications from except bot as well
2020-10-05 19:47:22 ★ tomasino hates bots
2020-10-05 19:48:41 lukee it does seem a bit unnecessary
2020-10-05 19:49:02 lukee what is the problem with copy/paste?
2020-10-05 19:50:26 lukee is there a standard way to turn off a particular bot or is it a client specific thing if you can or not?
2020-10-05 19:52:05 ★ lukee adds except to ignore list
2020-10-05 19:54:00 jrhorn424 lukee: thanks for the reminder about that feature
2020-10-05 19:56:40 @tomasino you can ignore, yeah.
2020-10-05 19:56:52 @tomasino in the big public channels we limit the bots that are allowed to be there
2020-10-05 19:57:50 lukee maybe I'm missing the point, but I can't understand what the added value of that new except bot is - can anyone explain?
2020-10-05 19:58:17 @tomasino no clue. it appears broken
2020-10-05 19:58:39 lukee like bots in general I guess
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2020-10-05 21:06:32 epoch why would that be a bug?
2020-10-05 21:18:13 boringcactus because what's a hxxini
2020-10-05 21:25:47 aravk or hxxps
2020-10-05 21:25:53 aravk http://example.com
2020-10-05 21:25:53 ℹ Notice(except): hxxp://example.com https://epo.k.vu/a9b9 || gemini://epo.k.vu/a9b9
2020-10-05 21:25:55 ℹ Notice(except): title: Example Domain
2020-10-05 21:25:55 @tomasino and also, what is it doing?
2020-10-05 21:26:00 aravk or hxxp
2020-10-05 21:26:13 aravk it seems to provide shortening links and to give the title if it can
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2020-10-05 22:07:53 jrhorn424 a cursory search suggests that hxxp and similar protocol-munging technique are used to: prevent bots from scraping links, prevent autolinking, prevent automatic shortening, as a way to prevent dangerous links from being clickable, and to prevent engines from excluding a ranked page based on linking to offensive content.
2020-10-05 22:08:25 jrhorn424 I don't think any of those are reasons for an IRC bot to munge protocols, especially since it posts them along with cross-protocol links
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2020-10-05 23:14:16 zephryn ah, i was wondering what those protocol names were about
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2020-10-06 01:43:54 epoch the original link is provided by the person saying it, I'm only having the bot repeat it so you don't get the shortened link mixed up with some other link that was shortened about the same time.
2020-10-06 01:46:12 @tomasino https://tomasino.is/a/luddite
2020-10-06 01:46:12 ℹ Notice(except): hxxps://tomasino.is/a/luddite https://epo.k.vu/f175 || gemini://epo.k.vu/f175
2020-10-06 01:46:16 @tomasino ,shorten
2020-10-06 01:46:16 ℹ Notice(except): title: tomasino is a ... luddite
2020-10-06 01:46:17 tildebot [Shorturl] Shortened URL: https://ttm.sh/dnx
2020-10-06 01:46:17 ℹ Notice(except): hxxps://ttm.sh/dnx https://epo.k.vu/aa36 || gemini://epo.k.vu/aa36
2020-10-06 01:46:33 ℹ Notice(except): title: Redirecting...
2020-10-06 01:46:35 epoch I guess I could just use the nick of the person that said the link instead of the link itself
2020-10-06 01:46:52 epoch since the same person won't ever get multiple links received by the bot out of order
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2020-10-06 06:52:33 weeb whats the except thing?
2020-10-06 06:52:40 weeb lots of notices
2020-10-06 08:22:48 aravk weeb: it's a bot epoch made that reports link titles and offers a shortened link
2020-10-06 12:42:44 CoopDot The title is nice, but I would like the auto-shortener to only fire if the URL are longer than 80 characters
2020-10-06 12:55:58 CoopDot gemini://x-z.se/
2020-10-06 12:59:08 CoopDot gemini://x-z.se/htmlite/ the discussion of having a stripped down version of HTML inspired me to write this
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2020-10-06 15:05:21 felix o/
2020-10-06 15:06:14 lukee hi felix
2020-10-06 15:06:21 lukee whats up with you?
2020-10-06 15:07:06 felix Been coding. Enjoying the last of good weather. Getting my teeth fixed.
2020-10-06 15:07:12 felix How are you?
2020-10-06 15:07:50 lukee not bad thanks. Just back in from the workshop - been doing some glueing up and heat bending of some wood
2020-10-06 15:09:46 felix Good work!
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2020-10-06 16:44:19 jrhorn424 epoch: thanks for the context +1
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2020-10-06 19:36:41 zephryn hope everyone's doing alright ^^
2020-10-06 19:42:58 aravk all's well here zephryn, you?
2020-10-06 20:06:30 zephryn i'm doing fine, probably going to work on some more projects soon
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2020-10-06 20:13:56 aravk good, good
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2020-10-06 21:45:32 Cadey boringcactus: your patch to gemtext is live, thanks again!
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2020-10-06 23:20:14 ℹ Mode #gemini [+o julienxx] by ChanServ
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2020-10-07 00:45:37 boringcactus yw Cadey
2020-10-07 01:28:49 @tomasino Cadey++
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2020-10-07 02:08:46 zephryn :P
2020-10-07 02:10:12 login hi zephryn
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2020-10-07 03:47:51 zephryn hello, login
2020-10-07 04:17:14 login how are you, zephryn?
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2020-10-07 04:51:00 zephryn i'm doing alright!
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2020-10-07 05:26:05 zephryn was meaning to get more stuff done, but i guess i got sidetracked lol
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2020-10-07 09:47:30 lukee hi everyone
2020-10-07 09:47:34 idf hi
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2020-10-07 09:49:47 lukee I've just released a new build 0.8.8 of GemiNaut. Main changes are to support simple web browsing and also it has a signed binary and installer, which *should* help reduce the number of false positives from anti-virus utilities marking it as suspicious
2020-10-07 09:50:21 lukee if anyone is on Windows and fancies trying it, download the installer from https://www.marmaladefoo.com/pages/geminaut
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2020-10-07 09:51:11 lukee I'd be particularly interested to hear if it is now easier to install and use without having to fish it out of the AV quarantine
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2020-10-07 11:35:04 boringcactus i did still get a SmartScreen alert https://f.boringcactus.com/2020-10-07_05-34-27.png but idk how u fix those
2020-10-07 11:43:27 boringcactus that's the only bump, though, and running gemifedi in horribly insecure mode looks pretty good https://f.boringcactus.com/2020-10-07_05-42-45.png
2020-10-07 11:48:57 lukee thanks for the feedback boringcactus. Yes I would still expect the SmartScreen alert to show. You have to pay $$ and go through extended validation, showing you have secure corporate IT processes etc, to get that removed
2020-10-07 11:50:24 lukee But it seems to be better than the previous release which was unsigned and without an installer. These together were triggering many more warnings, and sometimes pre-emptive deletion
2020-10-07 11:54:12 aravk nice stuff lukee! Unfortunately can't test, but it's great to see this stuff developing.
2020-10-07 11:56:00 lukee thanks aravk
2020-10-07 11:56:28 boringcactus oh my clone to fix a typo had gopher-get autoyeeted by windows defender, i see what you mean now lmao
2020-10-07 12:00:17 lukee if you have any typo fixes for gopher-get - feel free to send me a patch/PR and I'll merge them in for next time
2020-10-07 12:01:34 boringcactus oh it was for geminaut itself, but since it's all one repo the gopher get exe still showed up and got flagged as a trojan
2020-10-07 12:01:48 boringcactus and i just sent in https://github.com/LukeEmmet/GemiNaut/pull/8
2020-10-07 12:02:01 lukee ok thanks
2020-10-07 12:03:25 lukee merged - thanks!
2020-10-07 12:10:54 boringcactus yw!
2020-10-07 12:18:41 lukee Also I just pushed the signed versions of the utility apps (gopher-get etc) into the repo. It might help if you are doing any work on the repo in future
2020-10-07 12:23:09 boringcactus that should come in handy, yeah
2020-10-07 12:35:54 boringcactus i do feel a little bad for going "oh hey i really like this! here's a pile of feature requests lol"
2020-10-07 12:38:18 boringcactus even if several of them were on your to-do list anyway
2020-10-07 12:38:26 lukee no problem - they're both sensible feature requests. PRs welcomed too if you have the time and inclination
2020-10-07 12:39:22 boringcactus my C# is a little rusty (and by "a little" i mean "a lot") but i might get around to that at some point
2020-10-07 12:43:29 lukee there is a todo-list of some of the things I want to implement inside the top level Notes.txt
2020-10-07 12:50:26 boringcactus ooh i might be able to toss together a suitable C# gemini client library
2020-10-07 12:50:36 boringcactus sideProjectCount++; i guess
2020-10-07 12:51:14 lukee there is another gemini c# client TwinPeaks which has made a start on this
2020-10-07 12:51:57 lukee I thought I might merge it. But at the moment I'm happy to build on the good work of gemget
2020-10-07 12:54:01 lukee but it would be nice some day to support client certs and TOFU etc
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2020-10-07 13:39:14 mhj So my ARMBian install didn't do so well in terms of security for a Gemini self-hosted server. I previewed it a couple of days ago. So instead, I will be using NetBSD on a Pi3. At least with NetBSD there are minimal processes to keep track of and all services start off disabled.
2020-10-07 13:47:57 oms mhj: just curious, I tried running NetBSD on a pi3 once and had problems with a wonky keyboard. have you had the same experience?
2020-10-07 13:48:10 oms not sure if it was a power issue; it happened even running the keyb through a powered usb hub
2020-10-07 13:48:26 mhj Oh, no problems with that for me.
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2020-10-07 13:49:06 mhj Probably was a power issue
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2020-10-07 17:35:03 mhj oms: Just tried NetBSD 9 build from the regular NetBSD site with aarch64 aka ARM64 arch build to boot. It only had problems at first because I was using a fault SD card, but once I changed it to a good one all the problems went away
2020-10-07 17:35:37 mhj On a Rpi 3
2020-10-07 17:35:46 mhj No wonky keyboard problems
2020-10-07 17:35:49 acdw nice!
2020-10-07 17:36:30 mhj Heyo acdw~
2020-10-07 17:38:28 mhj Now I should prolly buy a new SD card to replace the faulty one lol
2020-10-07 17:40:01 acdw hey mhj :) yeah that isn't a terrible idea, lol
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2020-10-07 18:13:56 mhj How ya been acdw
2020-10-07 18:23:00 acdw good
2020-10-07 18:23:02 acdw !
2020-10-07 18:23:11 acdw I'ma bout to go to lunch tho,,,,which is like, YUM
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2020-10-07 19:04:46 boringcactus well, it's nowhere near useful yet, but https://git.sr.ht/~boringcactus/dotnet-gemini/tree does now technically exist
2020-10-07 19:13:49 lukee cool stuff!
2020-10-07 20:10:08 kevinsan thanks for the update lukee. the hoop jumping to get verified by microstuff was kind of you - esp. given that you were not even a beneficiary! :)
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2020-10-07 22:22:04 lukee thanks kevinsan. Yes it is frustrating to say the least to have to do a sacred dance to get the binaries past the holy platform gatekeepers. But the overwhelming majority of Windows users wont be able to compile it themselves
2020-10-07 22:22:38 lukee more hoop jumping skills to put on my CV
2020-10-07 22:23:27 lukee It also has the fix about showing a warning, but connecting anyway if there is a problem with the server cert
2020-10-07 22:24:15 kevinsan yup, seen it once already. non-intrusive
2020-10-07 23:01:37 Dr-WaSabi well I got it build..
2020-10-07 23:02:50 lukee great - fairly straightforward I hope?
2020-10-07 23:04:48 Dr-WaSabi just did a donet build
2020-10-07 23:05:08 Dr-WaSabi and it compiled
2020-10-07 23:05:28 lukee 👍
2020-10-07 23:05:52 Dr-WaSabi don't see any exe? for the protocal or in the test folder.. so I might be doing something wrong there
2020-10-07 23:06:38 lukee the exe should be created in GemiNaut/bin/Release or GemiNaut/bin/Debug, depending on which build you ran
2020-10-07 23:07:34 lukee that is normal Visual Studio behaviour I think
2020-10-07 23:08:31 Dr-WaSabi yeah, I don't have VS. Just dotnet core
2020-10-07 23:09:20 lukee oh, I'd be surprised if that worked, it has various Windows GUI libraries including WPF
2020-10-07 23:09:34 boringcactus build artifacts should wind up in the same place, if it said it didn't have errors
2020-10-07 23:11:01 Dr-WaSabi nope no errors, but I"m betting I've only got dotnet core cli librarys, so if it's a gui, then I'm betting it would work. or maybe I just haven't found it yet
2020-10-07 23:11:54 lukee I dont have any experience of using dotnet core to compile windows GUI apps. Not sure if it would be possible to compile or not
2020-10-07 23:12:15 Dr-WaSabi yeah, same here
2020-10-07 23:12:29 lukee It will definitely compile using VS community edition which is free
2020-10-07 23:13:12 Dr-WaSabi yeah, and when I go into town tomorrow I plan on downloading it.. but it would kill my datacap if I tried it at home
2020-10-07 23:13:16 Dr-WaSabi :D
2020-10-07 23:14:05 lukee yeah - its a bit of a monster to install
2020-10-07 23:14:22 @tomasino data.... cap?
2020-10-07 23:14:24 @tomasino ick
2020-10-07 23:14:25 Dr-WaSabi I tried sunday I think, and at it's smallest it was like 7 gig for basic windows gui install
2020-10-07 23:14:56 Dr-WaSabi tomasino: 10 gig a month... it sucks
2020-10-07 23:15:18 @tomasino well, i suppose it could be a fun challenge
2020-10-07 23:15:22 @tomasino or a good way to get off the computer
2020-10-07 23:15:28 lukee 7Gb sounds huge - its been a while since I did that, maybe it is that big :/
2020-10-07 23:15:33 ★ tomasino goes and uses 10 gb in 2 min
2020-10-07 23:16:14 Dr-WaSabi thats for the hotspot on my phone.. my phone supposedly has unlimited which I don't get if I get unlimited there why it's hotspot wouldn't
2020-10-07 23:17:21 @tomasino i've used 48gb this month so far
2020-10-07 23:17:24 @tomasino just checked
2020-10-07 23:17:47 lukee tomasino - I think you must have downloaded the whole of the geminiverse
2020-10-07 23:18:03 @tomasino heh
2020-10-07 23:18:55 @tomasino maybe i'll do a little zelda streaming on twitch
2020-10-07 23:19:06 @tomasino 8bitino is my username if anyone wants to watch some retro-gaming
2020-10-07 23:20:06 ★ Dr-WaSabi is a retrogame
2020-10-07 23:26:05 lukee its late here, I'm calling it a night: "Its a night"
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2020-10-08 13:40:15 boringcactus idk when lukee is gonna get back but https://git.sr.ht/~boringcactus/dotnet-gemini/tree/main/GeminiProtocol/GeminiTofuSession.cs i added a TOFU implementation to dotnet-gemini
2020-10-08 13:41:10 boringcactus it's like 100 more lines of code than the reference implementation of that algorithm, but half of that is prob documentation
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2020-10-08 13:58:12 boringcactus unfortunately i think i have run out of hyperfocus and now am back to actively procrastinating on the work i've been avoiding all week
2020-10-08 14:16:28 login boringcactus: if you are avoiding the work, then your heart is telling you it's not important work
2020-10-08 14:16:35 login and your heart is probably right
2020-10-08 14:17:15 boringcactus that's a good point, but, it's my day job
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2020-10-08 14:50:59 login boringcactus: it must be like a chore right?
2020-10-08 15:02:05 boringcactus yeah it's paperwork
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2020-10-08 18:09:44 idf i making progress with my gemini capsule about what I like at Nim
2020-10-08 18:09:47 idf *i am
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2020-10-08 22:10:03 Dr-WaSabi sweet. got GeminNaut to build and run
2020-10-08 22:10:55 acdw nice
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2020-10-09 02:37:56 insom got a hello-world gemini server running in Java. TLS is so awful on the JVM. .pem file? never heard of it. .jks please!
2020-10-09 02:44:51 acdw ah nice
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2020-10-09 09:45:19 zephryn catching up on the mailing list, lots of interesting stuff there
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2020-10-09 11:16:52 lukee just been away for a day, catching up on Gemini news etc
2020-10-09 11:17:29 lukee boringcactus: great to see your c# gemini library - I'll take a look
2020-10-09 11:18:34 lukee Dr-Wasabi: glad to hear you were able to compile GemiNaut eventually
2020-10-09 11:54:01 kevinsan insom: i don't think TLS is really any more awful in Java than it is elsewhere. it just has different ways of implementing the same things. it would be **much** harder without these libraries that people have provided.
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2020-10-09 13:24:25 mhj oh hey
2020-10-09 13:24:36 mhj I got Jetforce to work on NetBSD
2020-10-09 13:32:21 ~tiwesdaeg mhj: did you have issues?
2020-10-09 13:33:08 mhj Kinda, I had to install all the dependancies one at a time almost
2020-10-09 13:33:32 mhj Also it's a on Pi
2020-10-09 13:33:44 mhj *On a pi
2020-10-09 13:34:22 ~tiwesdaeg that can make it a bit more difficult
2020-10-09 13:34:43 mhj Yup, but I love a challenge lol
2020-10-09 13:34:47 ~tiwesdaeg I'm not sure if the arm packages are as complete
2020-10-09 13:35:02 mhj They aren't, but it runs!
2020-10-09 13:35:11 ~tiwesdaeg I think I installed jetforce first on tilde.pink/netbsd
2020-10-09 13:35:35 mhj Cool :D
2020-10-09 13:35:39 ~tiwesdaeg then mollybrown and currently gemserv
2020-10-09 13:36:03 mhj I need to get Molly Brown running on NetBSD since I want to make it a pubnix
2020-10-09 13:36:29 ~tiwesdaeg how is go support on arm?
2020-10-09 13:37:22 mhj It seems to be okay
2020-10-09 13:37:25 mhj Not the best
2020-10-09 13:37:51 ~tiwesdaeg molly was a pretty easy go program to compile if I recall correctly
2020-10-09 13:38:06 ★ Dr-WaSabi goes and studies the gemini spec instead of cleaning
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2020-10-09 13:43:24 mhj I'm basically gonna setup NetBSD with NPF, Fail2ban and key-only logins for the pubnix with Gemini support. It's been an adventure lol
2020-10-09 13:44:02 ~tiwesdaeg got a cool name yet?
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2020-10-09 13:45:09 mhj Not yet, other than I want the word SUN in it lol
2020-10-09 13:46:00 mhj If you have any suggestions to secure NetBSD, I'm all ears
2020-10-09 13:46:14 mhj Like, tips and tricks
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2020-10-09 14:11:43 ★ Dr-WaSabi wonders if a great icon for a gemini client of an astro/cosmo-naut sitting on the pot reading the news paper would be to much?
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2020-10-09 14:14:12 weeb wut
2020-10-09 14:15:27 Dr-WaSabi just odd random ideas that pop into my head
2020-10-09 14:15:29 felix Netsplit.
2020-10-09 14:15:47 ★ xfnw splits Dr-WaSabi
2020-10-09 14:16:12 Dr-WaSabi xfnw: then there just be two of me
2020-10-09 14:17:11 ℹ aravk is now known as fakedrwasabi
2020-10-09 14:17:20 Dr-WaSabi kind of like splitting your wasabi up from the little plate it comes on, and putting some on that other little plate
2020-10-09 14:17:23 fakedrwasabi _*and now we are undefeatable*_
2020-10-09 14:17:33 ℹ fakedrwasabi is now known as aravk
2020-10-09 14:17:37 ��� Dr-WaSabi wonders who said that?
2020-10-09 14:17:49 Dr-WaSabi great, another NEW voice in my head
2020-10-09 14:17:54 aravk xD
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2020-10-09 19:21:38 acdw eyy mattx
2020-10-09 19:22:30 mattx o/
2020-10-09 19:23:54 acdw do you have any ideas on the gemini-mode thing I mentioned in #meta?
2020-10-09 19:23:58 acdw idk if you saw that
2020-10-09 19:25:00 mattx ehh, I don't really know how to write emacs syntax highlighting
2020-10-09 19:25:20 mattx also https://tildegit.org/mattx/pygem here's the python gemini server
2020-10-09 19:25:20 acdw no worries! sorry to spam you about it
2020-10-09 19:25:26 acdw got some help around #emacs
2020-10-09 19:25:39 acdw nice readme
2020-10-09 19:25:46 acdw that's great lol
2020-10-09 19:25:55 acdw you could call the server spaghet
2020-10-09 19:25:58 acdw spagem
2020-10-09 19:26:04 acdw gemsketti
2020-10-09 19:26:05 acdw hm
2020-10-09 19:26:38 mattx you can tell it's spaghetti thanks to this if chain https://tildegit.org/mattx/pygem/src/branch/master/pygem.py#L24
2020-10-09 19:27:30 acdw oh that's a dank chain
2020-10-09 19:27:43 acdw tho you know what? URL checking is pretty effed
2020-10-09 19:31:43 mattx dunno, it has to do the implicit gemini://, check if the url scheme is gemini (i wonder why i did this), check if it's an attempt to proxy when proxying is disabled (twice), check for directory traversal...
2020-10-09 19:32:05 mattx append index.gmi, check if stuff exists and actually serve it. pure spaghetti
2020-10-09 19:32:13 acdw hey if it works it works
2020-10-09 19:32:18 acdw spaghetti is delicious
2020-10-09 19:32:42 mattx also no pip packages, hooray
2020-10-09 19:32:59 acdw hehe
2020-10-09 19:34:24 mattx anyway am tired of programming, time to browse some gemini stuff
2020-10-09 19:37:00 acdw :)
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2020-10-09 20:45:05 jcowan Almost all wasabi is fake anyway
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2020-10-09 21:40:56 @tomasino and delicious
2020-10-09 21:41:34 kevinsan now i have to seek out real wasabi! Just checked my paste and powder - 5% and 2% wasabi - eek!
2020-10-09 21:43:22 kevinsan i now have a sushi craving
2020-10-09 22:01:20 lukee spaghetti code := code that met the real world
2020-10-09 22:02:45 @tomasino mmmm, spaghetti
2020-10-09 22:05:14 lukee if you look at spaghetti close enough, each strand is perfectly straight and even
2020-10-09 22:13:50 @tomasino but if you break it in half, it'll break into more than 2 pieces
2020-10-09 22:21:14 Dr-WaSabi fake wasabi?
2020-10-09 22:21:17 Dr-WaSabi what?
2020-10-09 22:21:59 Dr-WaSabi great.. now I want sushi and spaghetti
2020-10-09 22:24:27 Dr-WaSabi lukee: something I notice in geminaut
2020-10-09 22:25:25 Dr-WaSabi open gemini page, click on a gemini link, change theme, click back button, old page loads along with theme changing back
2020-10-09 22:25:46 Dr-WaSabi is that supposed to be that way?
2020-10-09 22:26:12 lukee yes :)
2020-10-09 22:26:50 lukee when you go back, the browser loads quickly from the cache, so it will have a cached version using the theme you used when you loaded the page
2020-10-09 22:27:09 lukee If you press "Go" it will re-retrieve the page with the currently selected theme
2020-10-09 22:27:33 Dr-WaSabi cool. thanks. just wanted to ask
2020-10-09 22:28:29 @tomasino a few clients have run with the musing solderpunk had early in the mailing list, "it would be cool if a site's theme was tied to the domain... perhaps using it's hash... so people had a visible indicator when moving from site to site"
2020-10-09 22:28:57 @tomasino i believe castor does that too
2020-10-09 22:29:33 Dr-WaSabi interesting
2020-10-09 22:29:48 @tomasino kristall has an option for it called "auto-theme generation" with a light and dark mode
2020-10-09 22:30:10 lukee otherwise Gemini is very plain to look at and you can get lost knowing where you are
2020-10-09 22:30:27 lukee Compared to the web which has server controlled themeing
2020-10-09 22:32:21 lukee The trick in my view is to get the right balance between UI elements that are semantic and predictable (like headings and link styles) vs themes which may be site specific.
2020-10-09 22:32:39 lukee I dont think colours of text and links should change whenever you go to another site
2020-10-09 22:32:58 Dr-WaSabi I guess my only problem with that as a person with really bad eye sight, I like to set a theme (darker is better for me) and not have switch on me
2020-10-09 22:33:25 Dr-WaSabi but that might just be my problem :)
2020-10-09 22:33:51 lukee no it is very reasonable to have your own preferences, whether they are aesthetic or for readability purposes
2020-10-09 22:34:57 lukee I think this is one area where Gemini offers much better accessibility than the web, due to its option of client defined consistent styling
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2020-10-09 22:36:59 Dr-WaSabi yeah I have a bad habbit of blinding myself by jumping to a site that will have a really bright screen in the middle of the night
2020-10-09 22:38:18 acdw oof yeah know that feeling
2020-10-09 22:38:22 lukee its an interesting UI challenge for Gemini - to allow users to have customisable/selectable styles that are coherent across Gemini as a whole
2020-10-09 22:38:29 acdw I lower my screen brightness
2020-10-09 22:38:47 lukee yet at the same time provide a sense of "place" so you feel a transition from one site/writer to another
2020-10-09 22:39:01 Dr-WaSabi acdw: I ended up spilling hot tea all over myself
2020-10-09 22:39:12 acdw oh no!
2020-10-09 22:39:13 acdw you okay?
2020-10-09 22:39:33 Dr-WaSabi just my pride hurt
2020-10-09 22:39:51 acdw hey better to hurt pride then to hurt body
2020-10-09 22:41:02 Dr-WaSabi lukee: I can understand that... gives me something to think about
2020-10-09 22:41:46 @tomasino yeah dr. at least in kristall, if you set a theme yourself it just applies globally. The auto theming is only if you enable it
2020-10-09 22:42:06 Dr-WaSabi I like that idea
2020-10-09 22:43:36 Dr-WaSabi I was trying to imagein what other things could be used to give a sense of place to one gemini site from another, but still retain the over all users wish on the theme of the display
2020-10-09 22:44:15 @tomasino one of them generates programatic logos in the corner
2020-10-09 22:44:17 @tomasino who was that?
2020-10-09 22:44:22 @tomasino there's so many clients, i can't remember
2020-10-09 22:44:31 lukee Have a look at the GemiNaut "fabric" theme for one idea - it includes a unique placemarker and fabric background for each site
2020-10-09 22:44:43 Dr-WaSabi lukee: ha
2020-10-09 22:44:49 Dr-WaSabi thats what I was thinking about
2020-10-09 22:44:52 lukee at the same time the theme is just html/css so you can tweak it
2020-10-09 22:45:09 lukee But at the moment it is a "light" theme, so might not be to your taste
2020-10-09 22:46:07 lukee e.g. compare gemini://gemini.marmaladefoo.com/geminaut/gemini_home.png with gemini://gemini.marmaladefoo.com/geminaut/gus_home.png
2020-10-09 22:46:18 Dr-WaSabi but the basic idea is what I was thinking about. I set the over all brightness of the theme, but the site can set a border color or something... oh this is starting to sound html(ish)
2020-10-09 22:46:44 lukee surprising that :)
2020-10-09 22:46:58 Dr-WaSabi I feel dirty now :|
2020-10-09 22:47:18 lukee no need, it is just a possible UI implementation technology
2020-10-09 22:49:23 @tomasino this is how more clients get made
2020-10-09 22:49:24 @tomasino :P
2020-10-09 22:49:25 Dr-WaSabi I once met a IBM mainframe UI developer when I was just out of college, and I looked at the guy like he was nuts when he old me how long they would debate and design where fields where and the flow between them
2020-10-09 22:50:00 Dr-WaSabi tomasino: but in the end, wont the best bubble up to the top?
2020-10-09 22:50:09 @tomasino eh, maybe!
2020-10-09 22:50:13 @tomasino no harm, for sure
2020-10-09 22:50:31 Dr-WaSabi or, roll down hill :)
2020-10-09 22:50:34 ★ tomasino advocates for more original content on gemini that's not about the protocol, servers, or clients
2020-10-09 22:50:58 Dr-WaSabi I was just going to say that.... need more content
2020-10-09 22:51:10 acdw tomasino: Geminaut is the one with the little logo thing
2020-10-09 22:51:15 lukee Dr-Wasabi: seeing as you have a copy of the GemiNaut repo, have a look in GemiNaut\GemiNaut\GmiConverters\Themes
2020-10-09 22:51:37 acdw CONTENT CONTENT CONTENT
2020-10-09 22:51:41 acdw hey I'm doing my part lol
2020-10-09 22:51:44 Dr-WaSabi was just poking around in there a bit ago
2020-10-09 22:51:56 Dr-WaSabi acdw: yes, thank you. have your blog up now
2020-10-09 22:52:48 lukee acdw: I liked the one you did called "Exit" (or similar)
2020-10-09 22:53:26 acdw :D
2020-10-09 22:53:37 ★ acdw has to look that one up actaully
2020-10-09 22:53:59 Dr-WaSabi I can't belive that mspaint is still in windows
2020-10-09 22:55:29 acdw yeah it's not as good
2020-10-09 22:55:33 acdw but it's still there
2020-10-09 22:55:38 @tomasino geminaut++
2020-10-09 22:55:48 acdw lucidiot keeps saying they'll send me mspaint.exe from XP but i aint got it yet
2020-10-09 22:56:15 acdw oh yeah, EXIT ... I like that one too lukee
2020-10-09 22:56:18 acdw tanks :)
2020-10-09 22:56:43 lukee nice use of colour (or is that "color")
2020-10-09 23:00:20 @tomasino didn't the source for mspaint just come out?
2020-10-09 23:04:53 Dr-WaSabi thought that was all of winxp? but maybe paint was in there
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2020-10-09 23:18:51 zephryn i have returned, hope everyone is doing well
2020-10-09 23:19:48 lukee not bad thanks, apart from being bitten by my cat who wants to sit on my keyboard right now
2020-10-09 23:26:07 acdw colure
2020-10-09 23:26:37 acdw paint woulda been in there and I *was* oing to try downloading it....but then i got that other offer so
2020-10-09 23:26:40 acdw maybe i should tho
2020-10-09 23:33:03 Dr-WaSabi lukee: thats a cats way of saying its their keyboard and you can use when they say so
2020-10-09 23:34:01 Dr-WaSabi acdw: just saw something in a news feed that someone got the full xp to compile and run
2020-10-09 23:34:12 acdw oh heckyea
2020-10-09 23:34:19 acdw v a p o r w a v e
2020-10-09 23:35:29 lukee at least the cat has now moved to my lap - sort of better for working
2020-10-09 23:36:04 Dr-WaSabi warmer too
2020-10-09 23:36:07 acdw aw
2020-10-09 23:36:08 Dr-WaSabi acdw: https://www.zdnet.com/article/windows-xp-leak-confirmed-after-user-compiles-the-leaked-code-into-a-working-os/
2020-10-09 23:36:10 acdw sweet cat
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2020-10-09 23:36:19 Dr-WaSabi its zdnet... so who knows
2020-10-09 23:36:34 acdw i heard it worked
2020-10-09 23:36:45 acdw but yeah....not about to get the full force of MS on my back
2020-10-09 23:36:58 Dr-WaSabi doesn't sound like fun
2020-10-09 23:37:13 lukee jspaint > mspaint anyway :)
2020-10-09 23:37:38 acdw jspaint is aight ya know
2020-10-09 23:37:53 login yes, jspaint.app is so so awesome
2020-10-09 23:38:11 acdw somebody oughta package that out into a desktop app
2020-10-09 23:38:15 acdw or just .. transpile? it
2020-10-09 23:38:17 login Never thought Windows would become open-source so fast
2020-10-09 23:38:19 login 2020
2020-10-09 23:38:20 acdw into like. c++ or whatev
2020-10-09 23:38:22 acdw lol
2020-10-09 23:38:41 login Windows XP might become the most secure operating system now
2020-10-09 23:38:58 login but i don't think many applications support anything under 7 or even 10 now
2020-10-09 23:39:03 acdw inb4 xp is gnu/xp
2020-10-09 23:39:27 lukee win32 is here forever
2020-10-09 23:40:05 ★ Dr-WaSabi really want to go dig out his commondor 64
2020-10-09 23:40:30 Dr-WaSabi Now Thats A Computer!
2020-10-09 23:40:38 Dr-WaSabi :D
2020-10-09 23:41:18 login the videohas been taken down by msft due to a "copyright claim"
2020-10-09 23:41:21 login so it's legit!
2020-10-09 23:41:35 login Commodore 64 is a lot like iPhone
2020-10-09 23:41:42 login custom hardware, custom OS that runs on nothing else
2020-10-09 23:42:17 Dr-WaSabi almost everything back then was
2020-10-09 23:43:01 Dr-WaSabi really CP/M and the Z80 was about as open as you got
2020-10-09 23:45:06 ★ Dr-WaSabi wonders how differnt things might be if Gary Kildall had signed IBM's nda and DR CP/M had become their DOS
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2020-10-10 00:35:44 Dr-WaSabi tomasino: your not kiding about all the clients, geesh!
2020-10-10 00:36:13 @tomasino hah
2020-10-10 00:36:14 @tomasino yeah
2020-10-10 00:36:18 @tomasino they're so easy to make!
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2020-10-10 00:45:34 Dr-WaSabi wow... I totally get what lukee was talking about now after running the 100(ish) line python demo client.. it's very easy to lose your sense of place
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2020-10-10 02:28:10 jcowan Probably not that different. DOS was very very close to CP/M-86.
2020-10-10 02:29:52 Dr-WaSabi I was more thinking of the companies
2020-10-10 02:36:25 jcowan I think that DR would have become the MS of its timeline. "It steam-engines when it comes steam-engine time."
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2020-10-10 02:56:49 zephryn not sure if that would be a better or worse timeline to be in
2020-10-10 02:57:06 zephryn interesting to ponder about-
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2020-10-10 03:00:08 Dr-WaSabi yeah, stuff like that pops into my head all freaking day long
2020-10-10 03:01:51 zephryn it's crazy to think of all the small decisions that changed things like that
2020-10-10 03:02:08 Dr-WaSabi yup
2020-10-10 03:03:01 Dr-WaSabi and would have gary k have drank himself to death if he had gotten that huge contract
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2020-10-10 21:15:21 makeworld Gemget v1.6.0 released! https://github.com/makeworld-the-better-one/gemget/releases/tag/v1.6.0
2020-10-10 21:15:31 makeworld It supports client certs now, finally :)
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2020-10-10 22:02:50 makeworld Is anyone implementing Dioscuri? Anyone have thoughts on it?
2020-10-10 22:15:40 lukee hi makeworld
2020-10-10 22:16:17 lukee I think it is a nice design - and simple like Gemini
2020-10-10 22:17:42 lukee I started a private fork of molly-brown to try to implement dioscuri, but spent my first few hours trying to get molly brown CGI to work on Windows
2020-10-10 22:18:15 lukee (you need some kind of dynamic server app obviously to handle the dioscuri post messages)
2020-10-10 22:18:22 lukee thats as far as I got for now
2020-10-10 22:20:15 lukee It calls for "half closed" connections as a way to implement some of the control flow. Not sure I fully understand how to implement that, but it might be not too difficult
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2020-10-11 00:51:45 epoch dio+scuri, or diosc+uri? or dios+curi?
2020-10-11 00:52:05 epoch oh, just one word.
2020-10-11 00:52:17 epoch brother of castor and pollux
2020-10-11 00:52:29 epoch or. nvm.
2020-10-11 00:52:50 epoch dioscuri = castor + pollux
2020-10-11 00:57:43 Dr-WaSabi before they where put into the sky and called Gemini
2020-10-11 01:04:12 epoch well, curl is C+URL, but if it was C+URI, and you made a "godly" (or dios) version you could name it dioscuri, but preferably it'd have something to do with gemini.
2020-10-11 01:06:13 epoch or, instead of spanish for god, italian and have it be: dio's curi
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2020-10-11 02:26:14 lucidiot dio's curry
2020-10-11 02:40:31 jcowan I pronounce it dee-OSS-koo-ree, but Greeks, classicists, and others may have different pronunciations
2020-10-11 02:41:42 jcowan epoch: It's etymologically Dios-kouroi, sons of Zeus
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2020-10-11 02:51:09 Dr-WaSabi great... now I want curry
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2020-10-12 06:12:41 zephryn hope everyone's weekends went well ^o^
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2020-10-12 09:29:15 login have you seen the movie gemini man?
2020-10-12 10:46:27 epoch hrm. the knights who say (gemi)ni!
2020-10-12 11:11:27 login epoch: i didn't get it
2020-10-12 11:12:28 epoch it is an old joke from Monty Python and the Holy Grail
2020-10-12 11:13:12 epoch https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_Who_Say_%22Ni!%22
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2020-10-12 13:15:33 mhj Hiyo geminauts, how're y'all?
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2020-10-12 13:56:48 thefunkyspaw Pretty good!
2020-10-12 13:57:12 thefunkyspaw Quick question: How do you prefer to browse gemini on an android or ios device?
2020-10-12 13:58:25 mhj Hmm, neither really haha. Mostly from the terminal for me, but I do have an iPhone
2020-10-12 13:58:49 mhj I've not tried browsing gemini on the phone yet tho
2020-10-12 13:59:09 mhj It sounds like it could be a somewhat tough experience
2020-10-12 13:59:44 felix Works fine via portal.mozz.us
2020-10-12 14:00:24 thefunkyspaw Yeah, I've been using the portal, but sometimes I can't follow links and sometimes I cant copy links. It's kind of weird.
2020-10-12 14:00:49 mhj I just have a phone with a small screen, the iPhone XR, so I just feel like the text would be difficult to deal with in regards to links...
2020-10-12 14:01:17 mhj But maybe a good app could fix that
2020-10-12 14:01:22 thefunkyspaw At this point about half of my saved "gemini" links have the portal url in front of it. I'm going to have to write a parser to account for that in my bookmark system.
2020-10-12 14:02:15 thefunkyspaw I bet there is a way to feed CAPCOM into ttrss...
2020-10-12 14:03:15 mhj That would be interesting
2020-10-12 14:27:02 felix It should be simpler with Liferea, it supports custom sources and filters.
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2020-10-12 15:23:40 thefunkyspaw https://portal.mozz.us/gemini/alexschroeder.ch:1965/page/2020-09-12_Play_by_click
2020-10-12 15:23:48 thefunkyspaw This looks cool as heck
2020-10-12 15:40:51 CoopDot I use deedum on android
2020-10-12 15:51:27 kensanata heh
2020-10-12 15:52:42 kensanata gemini://alexschroeder.ch/2020-09-12_Play_by_click
2020-10-12 15:57:56 jns that astrobotany ascii art is awesome
2020-10-12 16:23:48 thefunkyspaw deedum is gplv3 https://github.com/snoe/deedum
2020-10-12 16:24:13 thefunkyspaw play store link: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=ca.snoe.deedum&hl=en_GB
2020-10-12 16:24:18 thefunkyspaw not available on android
2020-10-12 16:24:26 thefunkyspaw I mean FDROID
2020-10-12 16:24:31 thefunkyspaw ugh brain fog
2020-10-12 17:03:42 login fdroid is android
2020-10-12 17:03:56 login the play store is gandroid
2020-10-12 17:04:17 login all android devices beholden to google play services, i call gandroid
2020-10-12 17:05:15 login fdroid is android
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2020-10-12 17:46:56 boringcactus just burned like two hours trying to move https://git.sr.ht/~boringcactus/md2gemtext to embedding https://github.com/makeworld-the-better-one/md2gemini but the rust↔python interop just isn't quiiiiite powerful enough yet
2020-10-12 17:48:01 ericonr exec(python )
2020-10-12 17:48:03 ericonr :P
2020-10-12 17:48:50 boringcactus ok but like
2020-10-12 17:49:24 boringcactus if the library just shells out to python, then there's nothing the library helps with to make anything simpler
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2020-10-12 19:27:16 boringcactus oh but there is a middle ground: make the user install python and the library themself but then decorate the python function in more idiomatic Rust
2020-10-12 19:30:22 zephryn i believe that there are one or two gemini clients for ios
2020-10-12 19:30:37 zephryn both testflight though, iirc
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2020-10-12 23:16:58 zephryn guess my bouncer decided to break for a moment there
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2020-10-14 01:36:29 zephryn netsplit?
2020-10-14 01:41:20 acdw i guess so? OH apparently EFnet blacklisted 127.0.0.1, so it kicked everyone off as spammers? IDK
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2020-10-14 01:51:02 xfnw there are a few big ip banlists called RBL's. EFnet RBL accidentally added localhost to the list and caused a bunch of people connecting via localhost to be banned (zline'ed) for a week (unless an oper un-zlines localhost lol)
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2020-10-14 02:28:20 epoch wew
2020-10-14 02:29:24 epoch someone probably banned someone that was connecting to a hidden-service
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2020-10-14 21:09:00 acdw do yall know how i'd bi-host gemini & http images? Just have 2 servers point at the same thing?
2020-10-14 21:11:36 @tomasino pretty much
2020-10-14 21:12:49 acdw rad, thanks tomasino
2020-10-14 21:13:02 acdw I Move Ever Closer To Just Buying A VPS
2020-10-14 21:13:07 @tomasino symlink goodness may help if your server doesn't throw a fit over that
2020-10-14 21:14:07 acdw oooh oooh yes indeed
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2020-10-15 02:15:38 ℹ Topic for #gemini is "Gemini (protocol) enthusiasts - gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | https://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | gopher://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | publically logged in gemspace"
2020-10-15 02:15:38 ℹ Topic set by tomasino (~tomasino@oper.tilde.chat) on Mon, 21 Sep 2020 21:06:53
2020-10-15 02:15:38 ℹ Channel #gemini: 102 nicks (3 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 99 normals)
2020-10-15 02:15:38 ℹ Mode #gemini [+o tomasino] by ChanServ
2020-10-15 02:16:16 ℹ Channel created on Sat, 31 Aug 2019 22:41:57
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2020-10-15 14:46:27 jan6 yeehraw
2020-10-15 14:47:02 felix Ooh?
2020-10-15 14:47:11 jan6 nothin'
2020-10-15 14:47:17 jan6 lol
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2020-10-15 22:42:08 ℹ Topic for #gemini is "Gemini (protocol) enthusiasts - gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | https://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | gopher://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | publically logged in gemspace"
2020-10-15 22:42:08 ℹ Topic set by tomasino (~tomasino@oper.tilde.chat) on Mon, 21 Sep 2020 21:06:53
2020-10-15 22:42:08 ℹ Channel #gemini: 103 nicks (3 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 100 normals)
2020-10-15 22:42:08 ℹ Mode #gemini [+o tomasino] by ChanServ
2020-10-15 22:42:46 ℹ Channel created on Sat, 31 Aug 2019 22:41:57
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2020-10-16 20:50:45 jcowan What's the usual approach to representing plain lines in text/gemini if you want them to actually begin with => or ```?
2020-10-16 20:53:38 @tomasino add a space
2020-10-16 20:58:59 jcowan Makes sense, I guess, but will make the left margin look ragged. I suppose you could use an invisible Unicode character (there are plenty), assuming they don't become tofu for some people.
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2020-10-16 21:07:37 jcowan U+200B ZERO WIDTH SPACE should be perfect, but at least some fonts show it as a space anyway.
2020-10-16 21:20:10 kevinsan i wonder if monospaced fonts are compelled to show it with fixed width regardless?
2020-10-16 21:23:12 xfnw my monospaced fonts show zero width spaces with zero-width
2020-10-16 21:23:59 kevinsan xfnw: are these fonts you designed, or fonts you use?
2020-10-16 21:24:07 xfnw the ones i use
2020-10-16 21:24:18 xfnw lol i wish i could design fonts
2020-10-16 21:25:20 kevinsan you know, monospace a little less complex. anyway, interesting to know about the zero-spaced thing
2020-10-16 21:27:40 jcowan In practice you can't pack Chinese characters into mono, though you can display them in diwidth instead.'
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2020-10-16 21:31:48 kevinsan that's also curious
2020-10-16 21:32:04 kevinsan chinese writing looks kind of inherently monospaced
2020-10-16 21:32:51 kevinsan is it that there are too many variations to represent as an exhaustive list in unicode?
2020-10-16 21:35:49 jcowan Chinese writing is square, whereas western monospace is rectangles taller than their width.
2020-10-16 21:36:20 jcowan but if you make the western characters half a square vertically, then two of them will hold a Chinese character nicely
2020-10-16 21:36:47 jcowan I'm not sure what you mean by "too many variations"
2020-10-16 21:41:21 kevinsan oh, ok. i see now, thanks. the variations thing can be ignored (had been thinking glyphs might be getting combined to make a single character)
2020-10-16 21:46:36 jcowan There are characters for strokes, but those are used when talking about strokes. And there is a system that Unicode covers for writing things like "left half is X, middle is Y, bottom is Z" but those are rendered as sequences, not as single glyphs.
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2020-10-16 22:54:08 sandra jcowan: that's kind of a FAQ in here but there is no good answer. Gemini can't quine. A flaw in it. You can use ``` for => though
2020-10-16 22:54:25 jcowan Thanks.
2020-10-16 22:54:27 sandra I mean quine isn't the right word
2020-10-16 22:54:39 sandra BTW I am snan from freenode
2020-10-16 22:54:56 sandra s/from/on
2020-10-16 22:55:01 jcowan I figured, on both counts.
2020-10-16 22:56:05 jcowan I've been thinking about enhancing av98 to do gopher too, by translating gopher menus into text/gemini format as soon as they are loaded. But translating text/plain is not quite so easy. Still, it may not be necessary.
2020-10-16 22:56:50 sandra Please make sure AV98 users don't go on gopher accidentally. That's a problem with elpher already
2020-10-16 22:56:56 sandra ♥♥
2020-10-16 22:57:38 ★ sandra is a li'l bit scared of gopher
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2020-10-16 23:00:23 sandra I'm so bad for Gemini, I'm realizing
2020-10-16 23:01:03 sandra I have a li'l bit different perspective on it
2020-10-16 23:01:26 sandra Uh. Lexical repetition. Sign that I should sleep some
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2020-10-16 23:17:28 @tomasino hiya sandra
2020-10-16 23:17:59 @tomasino jcowan: av98 already has vf-1 for gopher
2020-10-16 23:18:06 @tomasino av98 was built from vf1, in fact
2020-10-16 23:18:33 @tomasino solderpunk has them seperate on purpose, but vf1 can use his agena helper thing to browse gemini if you want
2020-10-16 23:19:01 @tomasino here's the source: https://github.com/solderpunk/VF-1
2020-10-16 23:19:55 @tomasino and here's his phlog post about the whole breakdown - gopher://zaibatsu.circumlunar.space/0/%7esolderpunk/phlog/vf1-av98-and-agena.txt
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2020-10-17 00:10:04 jcowan I'm aware of vf1 (in fact I am cannibalizing it), but I'd like a browser that can do both.
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2020-10-17 00:58:30 sandra Hi tomasino. I slept a little
2020-10-17 00:58:48 sandra Almoat wrote "a li'l bit" again
2020-10-17 00:59:18 sandra Maybe my brain has that phrase installed as the equivalent of some Swedish word
2020-10-17 01:08:37 sprung yup
2020-10-17 01:21:22 sandra One of my big regrets in life is doing polyphasic sleep
2020-10-17 01:22:07 sandra The upside is I have a lot of time, the downside is I don't feel rested
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2020-10-17 11:58:16 idf hello
2020-10-17 11:59:24 felix o/
2020-10-17 11:59:53 idf can i ask for some opinions on one of my post
2020-10-17 12:03:16 felix Sure!
2020-10-17 12:03:23 felix Can't promise to have one.
2020-10-17 12:04:18 idf gemini://idf.looting.uk/capslog/nim-imo.gemini
2020-10-17 12:04:34 idf i might add it to the capcom feed soon
2020-10-17 12:07:23 felix Sounds good!
2020-10-17 12:09:18 idf thanks
2020-10-17 12:09:34 felix The things that matter to you, that's what should go in a review.
2020-10-17 12:09:54 felix I tried Nim briefly at some point, too, but gave up soon.
2020-10-17 12:10:07 felix Struck me as a huge, complex language.
2020-10-17 12:10:28 idf well I tried to list up the things that matter to me and explain them in a somewhat objective manner so it doesn't sound like an ad
2020-10-17 12:10:49 felix Eh, nothing wrong with praising things.
2020-10-17 12:10:57 idf ofc
2020-10-17 12:11:07 felix If you had any connection with the project, it would be nice to disclose it, is all.
2020-10-17 12:11:56 idf other than some commits and PRs and being friends with few key people i dont really have any connections with the project
2020-10-17 12:12:07 felix Oh, nice!
2020-10-17 12:12:14 felix Ironically, in recent months I started realizing just how big and complex Python is.
2020-10-17 12:12:59 idf everything is big and complex if you think a lot about it
2020-10-17 12:13:39 felix Not to the same degree.
2020-10-17 12:13:48 idf fair
2020-10-17 12:14:04 felix There's that feeling that you can master something if you give it more time.
2020-10-17 12:14:29 felix But of course it's relative and subjective.
2020-10-17 12:15:45 idf indeed
2020-10-17 12:17:30 idf recently i didn't really have any time(or inspiration) to be more involved with gemini stuff, but now I might start writing more posts, just to atleast share some opinions
2020-10-17 12:18:15 idf I also have to organise the capslog dir index page a bit better, emacs keeps putting swap files there :p
2020-10-17 12:19:06 felix Sounds good!
2020-10-17 12:19:30 felix Oh, my own review of Nim from a few years ago is more involved than I remembered.
2020-10-17 13:15:28 idf btw also added a list of users hosted on my hosting capsule
2020-10-17 13:29:23 felix Good work!
2020-10-17 13:34:14 idf thanks
2020-10-17 13:34:47 idf I really like how the hosting is going until now, it never went down and it's been running for a while
2020-10-17 13:35:08 idf i also find the content hosted interesting
2020-10-17 13:36:01 felix Glad to hear it!
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2020-10-17 14:22:53 felix \o
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2020-10-17 14:34:57 felix o/
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2020-10-17 21:33:11 zephryn o/
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2020-10-17 21:50:24 idf \o/
2020-10-17 22:05:29 zephryn happy saturday
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2020-10-19 23:13:29 ℹ Topic for #gemini is "Gemini (protocol) enthusiasts - gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | https://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | gopher://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | publically logged in gemspace"
2020-10-19 23:13:29 ℹ Topic set by tomasino (~tomasino@oper.tilde.chat) on Mon, 21 Sep 2020 21:06:53
2020-10-19 23:13:29 ℹ Channel #gemini: 108 nicks (3 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 105 normals)
2020-10-19 23:13:29 ℹ Mode #gemini [+o tomasino] by ChanServ
2020-10-19 23:13:56 ℹ Channel created on Sat, 31 Aug 2019 22:41:57
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2020-10-20 19:16:44 nixo Hi people! I discovered gemini yesterday and I really like the idea behind. I like the idea of the 10 response (ask user input) and I was wondering whether multi-line input has been considered as an option
2020-10-20 19:18:39 nixo I'm referring to "3.2.1" where it says "The requested resource accepts a line of textual user input". I'd like to implement something like "blog comments" (and for this 60/client side certificate is wonderful) but I'd like the comment to be in text/gemini too
2020-10-20 19:20:45 admicos while i'm not sure on what the view on multiline input is (afaik the input is being sent as the url query parameter today) there were a push for a new companion protocol called "titan" for text input (or was it just for documents, can't really remember) so you might want to look at that
2020-10-20 19:21:03 admicos otherwise, putting your email at the end of your pages and receiving comments there is an option :)
2020-10-20 19:24:59 nixo admicos: Thanks, I found this https://communitywiki.org/wiki/Titan that seems to be what you are talking about
2020-10-20 19:39:05 nixo I don't like the idea that much -.- gemini can already manage authentication, and that should be re-implemented in another (titan) server.. not sure it really simplifies things
2020-10-20 19:44:01 boringcactus ok this is almost certainly terrible but
2020-10-20 19:44:22 boringcactus you could do multi-line input one line at a time
2020-10-20 19:45:25 nixo boringcactus: yes that was my first idea, but I thought that maybe I'm not the only one that would like this multiline "feature"
2020-10-20 19:46:17 boringcactus i mean, you could write it as a couple CGI scripts and offer em up for people
2020-10-20 19:47:26 CoopDot One could pick another character to act as a new-line character
2020-10-20 19:49:48 nixo CoopDot: this looks bad in the input field, and also there's the 1024 bytes hard limit (as data is coded in the url query)
2020-10-20 19:58:40 nixo I have to go, thanks everybody, see you!
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2020-10-20 20:50:16 lukee evening all
2020-10-20 20:51:17 lukee nixo: the input 10 response is all percent encoded, so there is nothing actually preventing any client from including newlines in the submitted content.
2020-10-20 20:51:44 lukee by convention, it is usually a line of text, but it doesnt have to be. Any character can be included
2020-10-20 20:52:55 lukee A harder problem is that the 10 response type is submitted as a URL parameter. That means it is not really suited for submitting content to a server as an update. It is really for query paramaters and search mainly
2020-10-20 20:54:30 lukee so the gemini 10 response is really like HTTP GET, and also as such is liable to be replayed if the URL is persisted anywhere - as URLs often are
2020-10-20 20:56:12 lukee Gemini doesnt have the equivalent of POST at the moment, the best concept for that I've seen is the dioscuri proposal
2020-10-20 20:59:22 lukee see gemini://rawtext.club/~sloum/geminilist/002792.gmi and linked discussion on the list (also in the archives for this IRC channel)
2020-10-20 21:02:56 lukee (just spotted nixo already left the channel but maybe they will read the archive when they rejoin)
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2020-10-20 21:15:02 lukee ...and as quietly as he came, he departed...
2020-10-20 21:15:07 lukee good night all!
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2020-10-21 07:28:29 raiz it is stated in 5.5.1 about heading lines that # is like <h1>, ## is like <h2>, ### is like <h3>, however, does it go further till <h6>?
2020-10-21 07:32:35 boringcactus iirc no, three is as far as the spec defines
2020-10-21 07:32:57 boringcactus nothing stopping you from just using more though
2020-10-21 07:34:24 raiz wouldn't want to use nonstandard formatting, I was just wondering, because the spec wasn't clear about that
2020-10-21 07:34:45 raiz 3 is enough for most use cases anyway
2020-10-21 07:41:43 pentangle1 is therea gemini directory anywhere? I have a few bookmarks but I'm curious about what else might be out theere
2020-10-21 07:52:19 CoopDot gemini://gus.guru/known-hosts
2020-10-21 09:42:48 raiz while headings and links treat following <whitespace> as optional, I'm assuming unordered lists do not, because the spec says lines beginning with "* " are items of unordered lists in 5.5.2, noting that "* " is quoted with a following whitespace, and I'm also going to assume that quote lines defined in 5.5.3 treat following whitespace as part of the quote since the spec says ">"
2020-10-21 09:42:48 raiz without following whitespace, are these assumptions correct?
2020-10-21 09:47:08 sandra The spec needs some tightening up there
2020-10-21 09:49:12 raiz I'm going to go with my assumptions, I think it is correct to assume that "* " and ">" are both meant to be treated literally, I just wanted to be sure
2020-10-21 09:49:43 sandra Quotes can have a space
2020-10-21 09:51:26 raiz since the spec says ">" and not "> ", I'm going to assume that anything after > is part of the quote
2020-10-21 09:51:28 sandra This is being discussed on the mailing list. Thread title: "Optional/mandatory whitespace in §5.5 Advanced line types" around sept tenth, 13th somewhen around then
2020-10-21 09:52:07 sandra Please do remove the first space, if present, after the >
2020-10-21 09:52:34 raiz I'm not writing anything, I'm implementing a parser, that's why I'm so careful
2020-10-21 09:53:36 sandra Please have your parser count the first space, if present, after the > as part of the syntax and not as part of the quoted text. Thank you.
2020-10-21 09:54:27 raiz alright then
2020-10-21 09:54:52 raiz in that case, I believe the spec should be updated to clarify that, because ">" != "> "
2020-10-21 10:42:26 pentangle1 CoopDot: I appreciate it, but that's giving me a hostname does not match error
2020-10-21 10:57:45 raiz works fine for me
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2020-10-21 11:21:43 CoopDot Try another browser. Works for me in Kristal, Castor and Deedum
2020-10-21 11:30:27 raiz what would be the standard line separator for text/gemini? 5.3 doesn't specify that
2020-10-21 11:30:57 raiz should I accept all cases of singe \r and single \n and \r\n
2020-10-21 12:04:53 CoopDot The lazy way to do it is to hope no one uses (stand alone) \r, break row at \n and just ignore \r when encountering \r\n
2020-10-21 12:05:50 raiz oh
2020-10-21 12:06:11 raiz too late, I've got my parser to handle all cases
2020-10-21 12:06:22 CoopDot This was discussed on the mailinglist but I can't look it up right now
2020-10-21 12:07:34 CoopDot Handling all cases is better
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2020-10-21 13:37:10 raiz wow, a fully working gemini parser in one day, time to test the hell outta this thing :)
2020-10-21 13:37:27 raiz I also made the whitespace after * not mandatory
2020-10-21 13:37:56 raiz because it is still unclear to me, I just wanted to make sure
2020-10-21 13:38:34 @tomasino the spec is lagging a tiny bit on an official decision on that
2020-10-21 13:39:11 raiz my reason for not liking that is perhaps someone wants to start a line with *blah blah
2020-10-21 13:39:14 raiz for whatever reason
2020-10-21 13:39:39 raiz I initially assumed "* " suggested whitespace is necessary
2020-10-21 13:39:54 raiz but as others suggested, I should support not having it
2020-10-21 13:39:58 raiz so I did
2020-10-21 13:40:08 @tomasino mostly it's to avoid people that are using *bold* markup, which isn't in the spec, but is common
2020-10-21 13:40:19 @tomasino *this* shouldn't be a list, in some minds
2020-10-21 13:41:37 @tomasino following that, many people were saying that it would be best if we were consistent and the optional space was mandatory on all those starting tags
2020-10-21 13:42:06 @tomasino the downside of that is the ### heading, as you'd have to read the first 4 characters to catch the space instead of only 3, which was actually an issue brought up on the ML
2020-10-21 13:42:15 @tomasino i'm staying out of this one. :)
2020-10-21 13:42:31 raiz after working on this project, I think I'm gonna propose some clarifications to the spec
2020-10-21 13:42:52 raiz I'm generally happy with having handled all the unclear cases in my implementation
2020-10-21 13:43:05 raiz it doesn't add much complexity but it's just unclear, that's it
2020-10-21 13:43:16 raiz but if this was HTML, I'd be still working on this
2020-10-21 13:43:17 @tomasino clarity recommendations are good
2020-10-21 13:43:34 @tomasino especially if you can make those recommendations in a way that simplifies the spec
2020-10-21 13:43:48 raiz the format is very clean, I'm happy with it
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2020-10-21 14:28:28 felix o/
2020-10-21 15:14:07 ★ raiz waves
2020-10-21 15:14:34 dkibi I'm a (tiny)bid sadded that people don't just come up with new tag marker and bold markup
2020-10-21 15:27:49 felix Inline markup would be very much against the spirit of Gemini.
2020-10-21 15:31:48 dkibi how so? ASCII art is very much in the spirit, I don't see how emphasizing stuff with extra characters should not be
2020-10-21 15:32:06 dkibi of course having a standardized markup which is/has to be interpreted by clients is
2020-10-21 15:32:42 felix The whole point with gemtext is that you can parse it by looking at the first three characters of each line.
2020-10-21 15:32:55 felix That's the guiding principle.
2020-10-21 15:33:59 felix We discuss often enough potential additions within these limits.
2020-10-21 15:35:45 dkibi yeah I'm aware. I'm talking about text markers for readers not for client. just like I can *emphasize* something in IRC.
2020-10-21 15:36:49 dkibi what I mean is: if * as a convention for emphasizing something doesn't work in gemtext, I would have thought maybe it's nicer to come up with a new convention instead of adapting the standard
2020-10-21 15:37:17 @tomasino i think a few clients are adding * and _ support for in-line markup anyway, in excess of the spec
2020-10-21 15:38:46 @tomasino what's interesting to me is that in irc and thunderbird and several places yuo get *bold* as practice in conflict with markdown
2020-10-21 15:39:07 @tomasino what's underline vs bold vs italic isn't that standard
2020-10-21 15:40:10 dkibi oh right, that markdown does that differently always catches me off guard
2020-10-21 15:41:21 dkibi I'm a bit saddened that I didn't keep up with the gemspace recently. but those days I find myself with a bit more time at my hands so I hope travel in it more ^^
2020-10-21 15:41:38 @tomasino since it's something that could be left as-is by clients or optionally styled i don't really have an opinion about where that belongs. inline links i'm very-much against, though. Perhaps inline styling is seen as a slippery slope
2020-10-21 15:44:49 dkibi did any of the many proposed optional extensions catch on so far. or can I enjoy gemini space with a client from April as much as back then?
2020-10-21 15:46:07 raiz any inline styling that isn't defined by the standard can be misinterpreted because people would refer to the spec when writing gemtext and wouldn't take into consideration that such thing exists
2020-10-21 15:46:43 raiz *foo* could literally mean anything depending on the context, not just emphasis
2020-10-21 15:48:54 dkibi hm I personally see it something akin to exclamation marks or brackets: a convention of the human language
2020-10-21 15:57:04 jcowan IMO having bold inline is a very bad idea (except when quoting Oscan inscriptions in Latin transliteration). Bold is a structural component, because it draws the eyes to it before any other element of the text.
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2020-10-22 13:18:06 felix \o
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2020-10-22 13:30:21 jns o/
2020-10-22 13:33:56 raiz o/
2020-10-22 13:36:00 Dr-WaSabi ¯\(°_o)/¯
2020-10-22 13:38:33 jcowan ooOOOOOoo
2020-10-22 13:42:04 ★ felix laughs
2020-10-22 13:49:00 tildebeast is anyone here using bombadillo? all of a sudden i'm getting a 'no matching certificate found' error for some sites that work without warning in other browsers...
2020-10-22 13:53:54 felix I can try them for you.
2020-10-22 14:41:59 jcowan Does anyone know how to talk to Agena from random Gemini clients? I have an Agena instance running on localhost with a cert I created just for that, but I don't know what Gemini URL to specify. I tried the obvious gemini://localhost/gopher://gopher.floodgap.com with no luck -- Lagrange just hangs.
2020-10-22 15:00:32 tildebeast felix: pls could you try gemini://envs.net ?
2020-10-22 15:01:36 felix It gets stuck at the "Loading..." message.
2020-10-22 15:02:07 felix While Amfora says right away the cert is expired.
2020-10-22 15:02:21 tildebeast interesting
2020-10-22 15:02:21 felix Oh, Bombadillo loaded it in the end.
2020-10-22 15:02:40 felix Wait, no, it's still stuck.
2020-10-22 15:03:07 felix In fact it needed a Ctrl-C. :D
2020-10-22 15:03:12 raiz can someone recommend me a gemini server?
2020-10-22 15:03:17 tildebeast hmm. i saw a line of red text come and go in amfora but couldn't read it in time
2020-10-22 15:03:21 tildebeast but then it loaded...
2020-10-22 15:03:34 tildebeast raiz: molly brown works well (at least on mine)
2020-10-22 15:04:40 raiz can't find it in gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/software/, could you link to where I can get it?
2020-10-22 15:05:42 raiz I'm just wondering if there's a geminid implementation that the majority of the community runs, that'd be the most reliable
2020-10-22 15:05:57 idf hi
2020-10-22 15:06:11 ericonr tildebeast: I managed to load it here
2020-10-22 15:06:22 tildebeast https://tildegit.org/solderpunk/molly-brown
2020-10-22 15:06:34 tildebeast thanks ericonr
2020-10-22 15:07:23 tildebeast it wasn't just that site -- quite a few had the same thing. Including my own as-yet unannounced server that I have verified has up-to-date certs via Letsencrypt. Odd...
2020-10-22 15:09:33 raiz hey this seems great, generally most go libraries out there aren't great, I like how this has almost no dependencies, and I like that it has openbsd init scripts, that's nice
2020-10-22 15:09:49 raiz thanks tildebeast
2020-10-22 15:10:44 tildebeast np raiz. what OS are you looking to run it on?
2020-10-22 15:10:58 raiz openbsd
2020-10-22 15:11:17 tildebeast i think there are some notes on the git readme then
2020-10-22 15:11:23 raiz yeah, I read
2020-10-22 15:11:29 raiz ^
2020-10-22 15:11:47 tildebeast i wrote some for freebsd but they need a quick tweak to allow for manual letsencrypt certs not being easily updatable
2020-10-22 15:11:52 tildebeast (by script, that is)
2020-10-22 15:12:28 raiz why would you use letsencrypt for gemini?
2020-10-22 15:12:37 tildebeast to create certs
2020-10-22 15:12:54 raiz yeah, but isn't tofu the norm here?
2020-10-22 15:13:52 tildebeast might be the norm but i'm used to using letsencrypt :)
2020-10-22 15:14:07 raiz alright
2020-10-22 15:14:39 raiz it might be annoying to have to renew tofu certs everyone 2 months
2020-10-22 15:14:45 raiz (for users)
2020-10-22 15:14:59 raiz (*visitors)
2020-10-22 15:15:06 tildebeast don't tofus have an expiry anyway?
2020-10-22 15:15:21 raiz can go for as a far as a year
2020-10-22 15:15:33 raiz or more (but I wouldn't recommend that)
2020-10-22 15:17:11 tildebeast fair enough. i set up a weekly renewal script on my freebsd server. and a 'follow-up' script that copies any <6-day-old certs to a 'gemcerts' directory and changes the ownership so molly-brown (running as user 'gemini') can access them
2020-10-22 15:18:34 tildebeast took a few tweaks and some weaponised four-letter words but it seems to work now
2020-10-22 15:19:44 raiz lol
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2020-10-22 15:33:34 ericonr I have yet to properly implement TOFU in my client D:
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2020-10-22 15:34:53 ericonr I currently just have an option to accept whatever key the server sends me if the certificate isn't verified
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2020-10-22 15:54:35 tildebeast perfectly secure :)
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2020-10-22 17:02:00 kiedtl There, my dumb gemini crawler has reached a working state. woo!
2020-10-22 17:02:14 felix Congrats!
2020-10-22 17:15:51 ericonr tildebeast: heh :)
2020-10-22 17:17:06 ericonr assuming I figure out a good way to store the key, I should be able to get it working properly
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2020-10-22 22:29:23 kiedtl does anyone have any idea how big gemspace is?
2020-10-22 22:30:23 acdw you could check the known hosts at gus.guru
2020-10-22 22:32:29 kiedtl oh, not just capsules, gmi pages too
2020-10-22 22:32:41 acdw Ah. I'm not sure then..
2020-10-22 22:32:55 acdw you could try ... scraping everythign? I don't know if tht's a great idea
2020-10-22 22:33:22 kiedtl Yeah, that's what I'm doing right now :P
2020-10-22 22:33:50 lucidiot RIP servers
2020-10-22 22:34:30 kiedtl Don't think my crawler would cause any substantial load on servers
2020-10-22 22:34:33 ericonr "first DoS attack on gemini"
2020-10-22 22:34:41 kiedtl unless the server is running on a raspberry pi zero
2020-10-22 22:35:52 lucidiot which could definitely be the case considering gemini is lightweight :p
2020-10-22 22:36:02 ericonr :)
2020-10-22 22:36:15 ericonr TLS is probably the biggest overhead
2020-10-22 22:36:17 lucidiot is there a raspberry pi minus one
2020-10-22 22:36:21 lucidiot or is that arduino
2020-10-22 22:36:50 ericonr eh, if you still want internet you could go with an ESP32/ESP8266
2020-10-22 22:36:57 lucidiot ah yeah
2020-10-22 22:37:02 kevinsan kiedtl: even running on an arduino, you won't stress servers. we tend to receive hits in the order of requests per hour :)
2020-10-22 22:37:04 ericonr I wonder if I could make IoT over Gemini :o
2020-10-22 22:38:09 kiedtl kevinsan: ok, thanks :)
2020-10-22 22:38:18 kevinsan kiedtl: if you are writing a crawler, you might consider gathering links in a big file and crawling them in random order (e.g. sort by random and then process them)
2020-10-22 22:38:31 lucidiot i was considering doing gemini but with request bodies for a hamradio network
2020-10-22 22:38:32 kiedtl Ooops, I don't think I was clear
2020-10-22 22:38:42 kiedtl I'm not scraping data, I'm just collecting links
2020-10-22 22:38:44 kiedtl urls
2020-10-22 22:38:57 kiedtl (Although I might scrape data later, I'm not sure now)
2020-10-22 22:39:18 lucidiot though TLS is technically forbidden for amateur radio here
2020-10-22 22:39:32 kevinsan kiedtl: well you need to fetch pages to find links, so it makes little difference from a server-load perspective
2020-10-22 22:40:18 kevinsan what I really liked was a Gemini-page roulette - I forget where it was, but it never got updated and got quite stale.
2020-10-22 22:40:31 kiedtl I see what you mean
2020-10-22 22:40:36 kiedtl Yeah
2020-10-22 22:40:37 kevinsan it was great just seeing a random page
2020-10-22 22:40:37 lucidiot yeah maybe work in multiple passes if you need to crawl (and you don't have _all_ the links already): take your list, crawl randomly, take that new list, crawl randomly, …
2020-10-22 22:40:49 @tomasino was that a Gus thing?
2020-10-22 22:40:51 kiedtl I do parse the the page, but through away the page afterwards
2020-10-22 22:41:10 kiedtl *throw
2020-10-22 22:41:29 kevinsan lucidiot: I did that for a web crawler - each page was treated independently, rather than each site, so hits were spread
2020-10-22 22:41:59 kevinsan I was still requesting 1 page per second - so it was slooooooow by server throughput standards
2020-10-22 22:42:05 acdw I don't think the gemini roulette was gus
2020-10-22 22:42:17 kevinsan acdw: no it was someone else... wait i'll check
2020-10-22 22:42:27 acdw I mean ... is it a big deal if it's just you , downloading them once,?
2020-10-22 22:42:30 ericonr for crawling you'd have to implement all the navigation stuff, right?
2020-10-22 22:42:32 acdw the page thruput i mean
2020-10-22 22:42:37 ericonr resolving links and such
2020-10-22 22:42:38 kevinsan gemini://typed-hole.org/roulette
2020-10-22 22:43:15 @tomasino gemini://typed-hole.org/roulette
2020-10-22 22:43:17 @tomasino oh, you beat me to it
2020-10-22 22:43:20 @tomasino i searched gus for it
2020-10-22 22:43:21 @tomasino :P
2020-10-22 22:43:41 kevinsan even gus is getting a little stale these days - is natpen still around the verse?
2020-10-22 22:44:16 ericonr hm, my client doesn't like the header it returns
2020-10-22 22:44:36 ericonr it doesn't use a single space after the status code :P
2020-10-22 22:44:39 acdw ey there it is
2020-10-22 22:44:40 kevinsan ericonr: if you're talking about roulette - it may just be the site you're winning
2020-10-22 22:44:58 ericonr > 31 gemini://sidewall.tokeniser.uk
2020-10-22 22:44:59 @tomasino ahh, yeah
2020-10-22 22:45:01 kevinsan aahh - i've seen that in a few responses
2020-10-22 22:45:11 ericonr it's returned all the times like this
2020-10-22 22:45:14 kevinsan i've been trying to figure out what server is doing this
2020-10-22 22:45:26 ericonr technically it's within spec, right?
2020-10-22 22:45:35 kevinsan no, i checked - one space i'm sure
2020-10-22 22:45:42 ericonr hm, interesting
2020-10-22 22:45:42 acdw Oh that must be an older server? is the statusline spec updated to <CODE><SPC><META>?
2020-10-22 22:45:43 @tomasino i think that got changed to exactly one space recently
2020-10-22 22:45:47 acdw a-ha
2020-10-22 22:46:33 ericonr if this were an RFC, it would include something like "clients should accept any number of whitespace characters after the status code"
2020-10-22 22:46:37 kevinsan just goes to show how risky it can be to mess with the spec
2020-10-22 22:46:47 acdw YUP
2020-10-22 22:46:57 @tomasino that's what it used to be eric
2020-10-22 22:46:58 kevinsan i think clients should be lenient when there's no penalty for doing so
2020-10-22 22:47:22 acdw yeah, the thing. the wise quote thing
2020-10-22 22:47:49 kevinsan acdw: is that a meta-proverb you're offering us? :)
2020-10-22 22:47:57 acdw uh ... yeah
2020-10-22 22:47:58 acdw :P
2020-10-22 22:48:13 acdw look, you know what i'm talking about. so ... just think of that
2020-10-22 22:48:38 ericonr kevinsan: well, there's the penalty of me not having throught of it
2020-10-22 22:49:10 kevinsan your profundity humbles me. i do similar with jokes. "think of something mundane, add a surprising and humorous twist"
2020-10-22 22:49:24 ericonr and doing `redirect = response + 3` instead of doing a proper loop
2020-10-22 22:49:34 ericonr or just a strrchr, actually
2020-10-22 22:49:47 acdw there's another thing that talks about how we should just number all the pithy sayings and refer to them by numbers?
2020-10-22 22:49:49 acdw or is that jokes?
2020-10-22 22:50:02 acdw OMG kevinsan that is HILAROIOUS
2020-10-22 22:50:03 acdw lololol
2020-10-22 22:50:47 kevinsan the thing is, it can be re-used over and over.
2020-10-22 22:50:57 kevinsan shame i don't get invited to parties much, i'd be a hoot
2020-10-22 22:51:03 @tomasino joke 5041.
2020-10-22 22:51:06 kevinsan hahaha
2020-10-22 22:51:10 acdw laugh 88
2020-10-22 22:51:21 acdw that's in the upgrade
2020-10-22 22:51:41 ★ acdw invites kevinsan to a party
2020-10-22 22:52:40 kevinsan i now feel part of the 'in' crowd. prepare for awkward atmosphere, squirmy anecdotes...
2020-10-22 22:52:48 kevinsan but great meta-jokes ! :)
2020-10-22 22:52:52 acdw heck yeah
2020-10-22 22:53:00 acdw :)
2020-10-22 22:53:49 @tomasino callback to earlier joke, but in new context #3
2020-10-22 22:54:08 kevinsan anyway, joke 21
2020-10-22 22:54:11 kevinsan i know it's an old one
2020-10-22 22:54:58 @tomasino oldy but a goodie
2020-10-22 22:55:00 kevinsan is there a name for that muted wwah-wwah-wwahhh trumpet sound?
2020-10-22 22:55:39 acdw joke #2
2020-10-22 22:55:58 kevinsan steady - you can't make jokes like that any more
2020-10-22 22:56:16 acdw oh no I was saying the mwaah wah wahhhhhhh sound *is* joke #2
2020-10-22 22:56:17 kevinsan times have defnineetlee changed
2020-10-22 22:56:23 acdw figure it's a pretty old one
2020-10-22 22:56:25 acdw :P
2020-10-22 22:56:28 kevinsan :)
2020-10-22 22:56:42 acdw joke #1 is: “Something which has never occurred since time immemorial; a young woman did not fart in her husband’s lap.”
2020-10-22 22:56:46 acdw https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-joke-life/worlds-oldest-joke-traced-back-to-1900-bc-idUKL129052420080731
2020-10-22 22:56:48 acdw :P
2020-10-22 22:57:20 ericonr hm, it seems I was mistaken. It's not multiple spaces, those are tabs!
2020-10-22 22:58:16 acdw gotta love them tabs
2020-10-22 22:58:37 acdw I think we should use more of the whitespace ascii chars. where's my vertical tabs?
2020-10-22 22:58:44 acdw my page feeds?
2020-10-22 22:58:53 acdw gimme those like, four kinds of spaces or whatever
2020-10-22 22:59:06 acdw anyway i'm about to head home, bye
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2020-10-22 22:59:42 kevinsan ok, safe travels!
2020-10-22 23:00:11 @tomasino the column delimiter characters are horribly underused
2020-10-22 23:00:40 kevinsan kiedtl: what are your plans for your great Geminispace URL survey?
2020-10-22 23:01:31 kiedtl I made the crawler out of curiosity, boredom
2020-10-22 23:01:38 kiedtl I might make a tiny search engine for fun
2020-10-22 23:01:45 kiedtl I don't know
2020-10-22 23:02:14 kevinsan i've been doing something similar, though more of a homepage survey at the moment. I wanted to re-implement roulette with up to date data.
2020-10-22 23:02:56 kevinsan however, I keep getting distracted on other projects. My brain is like a call-stack
2020-10-22 23:03:29 kevinsan i'll be interested to see when you have something to show.
2020-10-22 23:19:29 lucidiot ah yes i want more ascii delimiters
2020-10-22 23:19:31 lucidiot csv bad
2020-10-22 23:20:32 lucidiot and thanks sqlite for .mode ascii
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2020-10-22 23:36:30 sose Does anyone know if there is a reference implementation of the Dioscuri protocol yet? Or is it just specs for now
2020-10-22 23:36:35 sose It seems like an interesting project
2020-10-23 00:22:52 xfnw whats Dioscuri
2020-10-23 00:23:46 weeb ^
2020-10-23 00:33:24 kiedtl ^^
2020-10-23 00:37:05 sose A theorized way of having an equivalent of the http POST request for gemspace: https://lists.orbitalfox.eu/archives/gemini/2020/002792.html
2020-10-23 00:37:27 sose It seems like people don't like the idea much though
2020-10-23 00:38:06 sose There is also titan://, which is a similar concept
2020-10-23 00:40:13 sose https://communitywiki.org/wiki/Titan
2020-10-23 00:40:20 kevinsan from the original ML post "Dioscuri is a protocol intended to supplement Gemini for doing things like uploading files, performing remote actions, and running an application server. It is the POST to Gemini's GET. Dioscuri servers will run on a different port altogether, so that they do not interfere with Gemini servers. Dioscuri, unlike Gemini, absolutely *requires* the use of client certificat
2020-10-23 00:42:52 kevinsan i'm not sure it's fair to say people don't like the issue - there were a couple of dissenting voices, but then again there's nothing but chat at the moment, so it's all moot
2020-10-23 00:45:28 kevinsan titan does have a working implementation, with code and examples etc. It can be used with simple bash scripting.
2020-10-23 00:47:50 sose Since nothing is standardized, I wonder what the preferred way of running something like a wiki would work
2020-10-23 00:48:01 sose Some more ideas in this thread: https://lists.orbitalfox.eu/archives/gemini/2020/001632.html
2020-10-23 00:48:22 kevinsan i can't help thinking that if it runs on a separate port anyway, then I'd be as well to just use HTTP POST to a server socket - there's a world of existing code to do that.
2020-10-23 00:50:50 sose There was a post on the mailing list theorizing chunking content into separate queries, that way it could all be done through gemini
2020-10-23 00:50:56 kevinsan there's no meaningful way to run a wiki on Gemini alone. A custom client could be hacked together to 10 INPUT a series of packets to be re-assembled via a cgi script
2020-10-23 00:52:55 sose Thats about what the post suggested, and what I was considering as well, the problem would be working with anything that's not text, which is where dioscuri and titan could work
2020-10-23 00:54:03 kevinsan you would encode the input, so binary data would be possible. it just might take hundreds of requests, and each would require a TLS handshake, which would be horribly inefficient.
2020-10-23 00:55:24 kevinsan but it gets back to the original point of re-inventing an input protocol when some cgi via HTTP seems as valid to me as vim via SSH, for example.
2020-10-23 00:55:27 sose Just doing the math on a random image file I have it would take about 115 requests to upload the whole thing, which I don't think is very practical
2020-10-23 00:55:54 kevinsan it's not impractical, the code does all the work. it's just inefficient
2020-10-23 00:56:17 kevinsan but yes, it just feels wrong :)
2020-10-23 00:58:21 sose I guess i'm just searching for a "right" way to do things, which gemini doesn't seem to provide
2020-10-23 00:59:22 sose Although, I do like solderpunk's idea of essentially self-hosting content and sending the server a link
2020-10-23 01:00:18 sose The server then fetches the resource and processes it normally
2020-10-23 01:00:43 kevinsan is this the notion of proxying content?
2020-10-23 01:01:09 sose Not exactly
2020-10-23 01:02:12 sose The client would briefly host the content for the server to fetch, the server would fetch it, process it, and the client would stop hosting
2020-10-23 01:02:58 sose Its the most elegant, but the least practical in practice
2020-10-23 01:07:07 kevinsan i see it either a) requiring an open port on the client machine, or b) breaking the spec in terms of the transaction lifecycle (e.g. the client would need to keep the connection open for the server to make a request)
2020-10-23 01:27:58 sose Right, which is why it is less practical than the other solutions
2020-10-23 01:44:30 sose I'm going to try some experiments implementing different approaches, and i'll post the links to the results here
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2020-10-23 02:49:50 raiz morning
2020-10-23 02:50:04 acdw o/
2020-10-23 02:50:33 raiz "A theorized way of having an equivalent of the http POST request for gemspace:"
2020-10-23 02:50:38 raiz ^ please no
2020-10-23 02:50:51 raiz you can have wiki management in a different protocol
2020-10-23 02:51:14 raiz a wiki hosted in gemspace can have its contents managed with a git repo behind ssh
2020-10-23 02:51:49 raiz lets keep gemini for serving content only, other protocols can do other things better
2020-10-23 02:51:59 raiz or else you go the HTTP path
2020-10-23 02:52:08 raiz also, hi acdw
2020-10-23 02:52:54 acdw hey raiz
2020-10-23 02:57:00 acdw raiz: what do you think about a parallel protocol?
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2020-10-23 03:10:30 raiz you mean ssh compared to gemini?
2020-10-23 03:13:13 acdw well, titan
2020-10-23 03:13:22 acdw that might be the hting you were referrring to tho
2020-10-23 03:13:55 acdw https://communitywiki.org/wiki/Titan
2020-10-23 03:16:05 raiz I don't know about that, just heard about it
2020-10-23 03:18:46 acdw oh okay
2020-10-23 03:18:58 acdw it seems cool though there's only one implementation afaik
2020-10-23 03:19:18 acdw I like the idea of having one protocol that's basically GET, then another that's PUT, etc
2020-10-23 03:19:40 acdw so instead of the "verbs" in one ... "sentence," they're set apart
2020-10-23 03:19:47 acdw so you always know what's happening
2020-10-23 03:20:32 raiz yeah, I wouldn't mind that, but always keep in mind you don't want these 2 protocols relying on each other
2020-10-23 03:22:06 acdw yes i agree
2020-10-23 03:22:12 acdw totally separate, as all things should be
2020-10-23 03:48:15 weeb i cant tell where the "POST"-like gemini protocols fit. it appears as if gemini isnt for big files, so things like uploading files to a server are probably not going to catch on, since theres http for multiple-MiB files
2020-10-23 03:48:21 weeb seems to me like everyone editing their stuff do it through other ways (ssh, sftp, git?) and just serve over gemini anyway
2020-10-23 03:49:11 acdw hm fair weeb. my biggest thing is that i can't ssh from work, at least on 22
2020-10-23 03:49:33 acdw once i *finally* get a personal server for myself (I have been putting it off for a while)
2020-10-23 03:49:43 acdw it probably won't matter very much at all
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2020-10-23 09:22:19 lukee jcowan: I think the way Agena should work is that once you have configured the client to send all requests to a specified server, you just request the actual URL you intend to visit. The client detects the URL's scheme and sends it as a request to the proxy
2020-10-23 09:22:56 lukee the HTTP through Gemini proxy, Duckling works this way. I think Agena should do the same
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2020-10-23 13:19:46 jcowan lukee: I was hoping to get Agena to work transparently to the client, rather than making every client know about the proxy protocol. HTTP needs a proxy protocol because the proxy and the target servers may need separate auth, but that shouldn't be true in Gemini.
2020-10-23 13:24:06 thefunkyspaw Drew Devault (tech blogger guy) just started converting his whole blog to gemini and gemini portals. He's kind of a big deal.
2020-10-23 13:24:08 thefunkyspaw https://drewdevault.com/
2020-10-23 13:24:24 thefunkyspaw Looks like he totally mangled his site, and the gemini site is a mess, too
2020-10-23 13:24:46 thefunkyspaw http and gemini links going left, right, and center, and a lot of the kinks don't work, lol
2020-10-23 13:25:07 raiz I discovered gemini reading his blog
2020-10-23 13:25:08 raiz lol
2020-10-23 13:25:18 raiz and here I am
2020-10-23 13:25:30 thefunkyspaw Yay! It's working!
2020-10-23 13:25:55 thefunkyspaw Unfortunately gemini doesn't support gifs of young anakin yelling "its working" from his podracer...
2020-10-23 13:26:21 raiz that's a feature!
2020-10-23 13:27:21 thefunkyspaw Haha, yes. With what we lose, we gain self control and reatraint
2020-10-23 13:27:42 thefunkyspaw This is my favorite proxy, figured I'd share: https://proxy.vulpes.one/
2020-10-23 13:28:35 raiz oh, no, I use native gemini client
2020-10-23 13:30:08 thefunkyspaw what's nice about this proxy is it seamlessly switches between gopher and gemini links, and clicking html will open a web page.
2020-10-23 13:30:36 thefunkyspaw I use it on my phone because its better than the apps that browse gemini, and I can save bookmarks more easily
2020-10-23 13:31:02 thefunkyspaw bombadillo is the closest thing I've found to it for desktop
2020-10-23 13:31:12 thefunkyspaw but using my browser is just easier
2020-10-23 13:31:51 raiz whatever works
2020-10-23 13:31:58 jcowan Well, I suppose a client is free to render a link to an image as an inline image.
2020-10-23 13:37:01 thefunkyspaw I can see the slippery slope that presents
2020-10-23 13:37:59 thefunkyspaw Humans seem to tend to focus on more quickly digested data. When pictures are present, there is a tendency to skim to the pictures and skip the content.
2020-10-23 13:38:19 thefunkyspaw Something like midnight.pub could be slowly subverted and become an inageboard
2020-10-23 13:53:49 jcowan Life is spent on the slippery slope between birth and death.
2020-10-23 13:55:20 felix Isn't it funny how we keep finding serious issues in the design of Gemini, yet we're afraid to make any changes?
2020-10-23 13:55:39 felix And it was to be expected, too. No shame in that. The whole thing is absurdly new.
2020-10-23 13:56:52 wangofett to be fair, neither gemini nor gopher explicitly forbid anything really.
2020-10-23 13:56:57 felix gus.guru doesn't seem to have updated in two months. Many don't seem to know what to post on their gemlogs.
2020-10-23 13:57:23 jcowan "It is not immoral to touch your mother's big toe with your little finger, and the difference between that and incest is only a matter of degree." --Sextus Empiricus, 200 AD
2020-10-23 13:58:20 wangofett you could write a client that renders CommonMark and displays images or linkifies urls
2020-10-23 13:59:06 wangofett it's mostly that nobody bothers
2020-10-23 14:00:07 wangofett You can still (mostly) browse the web with the likes of lynx or edbrowse
2020-10-23 14:17:32 felix Yes, we can and we should. That could be a way forward.
2020-10-23 14:17:48 felix No, you can't write Lynx in a weekend, the way you can with a Gemini browser.
2020-10-23 14:17:53 felix So what?
2020-10-23 14:18:21 felix I recently completed a comparative study of three programming languages disguised as a roguelike port.
2020-10-23 14:18:29 felix Took me three weeks.
2020-10-23 14:18:56 felix And it was a flight of fancy. Fooling around with toys.
2020-10-23 14:19:24 felix How short is the average hacker's attention span these days?
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2020-10-23 14:27:06 thefunkyspaw jcowan / that's big talk from a guy named sextus!
2020-10-23 14:27:07 jcowan Progress doesn't come from *average* hackers.
2020-10-23 14:27:42 thefunkyspaw I wonder if gemini can do sixel graphics
2020-10-23 14:29:56 thefunkyspaw nope
2020-10-23 14:30:20 jcowan Eh, why not?
2020-10-23 14:31:52 thefunkyspaw Sixels aren't UTF-8 encoded characters
2020-10-23 14:37:46 lukee jcowan: to get scheme specific proxies working (whether it is for gopher or http(s)) the client just needs to know to which server to send the request. In both instances, a gemini request is sent to the proxy with the URL desired, and the content is returned, usually as text/gemini for gophermaps or html pages, otherwise whatever was the original content
2020-10-23 14:38:16 lukee So in both cases, it works (or should work) the same way. It is not an HTTP proxy in the classical web sense of a web proxy.
2020-10-23 14:40:17 lukee rather the proxy servers (agena or duckling) are actually gemini servers that will return content on gopher or http(s) URL end points
2020-10-23 14:40:58 lukee that's the theory. Of course some clients might have bugs or broken implementations
2020-10-23 14:41:58 jcowan thefunkyspaw: Ah, got it. I was thinking of quadrants.
2020-10-23 14:43:11 jcowan lukee: I think I follow you. The downside is that the client software has to know about the proxy: normal clients given an URL will always send it to the host named in the URL.
2020-10-23 14:43:49 jcowan So if your favorite client does not support proxies, you are SOL.
2020-10-23 14:46:14 lukee jcowan: yes, the client has have an option to use a scheme specific proxy. the advantage is that the proxy is just a gemini server, so the client doenst have to know anything about the target protocol
2020-10-23 14:46:47 lukee There are a few now that I know of, including AV-98, Gemget, Diohsc, lagrange, amfora. Maybe others too
2020-10-23 14:46:53 lukee and GemiNaut
2020-10-23 14:47:19 jcowan Right. But a non-transparent proxy (e.g. one that interprets the path as an URL) has the advantage that it will work with any client.
2020-10-23 14:48:13 jcowan gemini://proxy.host/gopher://gopher.floodgap.com, e.g.
2020-10-23 14:48:42 lukee yes - these are sort of live mirroring services. I don't think Agena works like that, and nor does Duckling. But they probably could be adapted to do so
2020-10-23 14:48:50 jcowan Both kinds are useful
2020-10-23 14:49:46 lukee the other option of course is to bolt in a simple gopher/http(s) library into the client for the most seamless integration
2020-10-23 14:52:43 lukee so for example Kristall and GemiNaut directly handle http(s)+gemini+gopher, Castor does gopher+gemini+finger, I think some commandline gemini clients do gemini and gopher directly (bombadillo maybe others)
2020-10-23 14:59:36 lukee the main advantage of the transparent proxies (agena and duckling) is that when a gopher or http url is included anywhere in the geminiverse, the user can directly click on it and the client retrieves it immediately. Otherwise you have to navigate over to a mirroring proxy then paste in the URL, or get your client to munge the URLs some how
2020-10-23 15:00:01 lukee but I agree there is a role for both types
2020-10-23 15:00:31 jcowan Finger, wow.
2020-10-23 15:00:52 jcowan I wonder if there is a list of public fingerable servers
2020-10-23 15:02:03 lukee I thought gopher was anitquarian, but finger is positively pre-cambrian
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2020-10-23 15:13:28 wgreenhouse elpher (emacs client) also does gemini, gopher, and finger
2020-10-23 15:13:50 jcowan There may be machines on intranets running fingerd
2020-10-23 15:14:11 wgreenhouse several of the tildeverse servers have finger
2020-10-23 15:14:34 wgreenhouse also some phloggers seem to use it as some kind of adjacent thing to their phlog
2020-10-23 15:14:40 jcowan One of the curious things about the standard finger implementation is that all the brains are in the client. The server just runs the client locally on behalf of the remote site.
2020-10-23 15:17:34 acdw there are bunches of fangers
2020-10-23 15:19:55 jcowan Most of them dogs. Some of the rest are tigers.
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2020-10-23 15:46:41 acdw lolol
2020-10-23 15:46:56 acdw now THAT would be a dope protocol name: Tiger Protocol
2020-10-23 15:46:59 acdw tiger://rawr
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2020-10-23 17:18:58 kiedtl tiger://cla.ws
2020-10-23 17:19:23 acdw hell yes
2020-10-23 17:19:25 kiedtl My crawler bot started to hang after crawling... 19,900 capsules. Hmm, gemspace is bigger than I thought
2020-10-23 17:19:51 kiedtl oops, not capsules. pages.
2020-10-23 17:20:44 admicos aren't there some mirrors of http pages too? assuming you don't exclude them that might be the reason
2020-10-23 17:21:08 kiedtl Oh, no, I do not exclude mirrors... never thought of that
2020-10-23 17:21:25 admicos iirc there's a wikipedia mirror so that might be a while to crawl
2020-10-23 17:21:27 kiedtl Well, I can filter those out after I'm done, I suppose
2020-10-23 17:21:29 kiedtl oof
2020-10-23 17:21:33 kiedtl I had no idea
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2020-10-23 17:51:35 acdw oh yeah taht'll add a bunch
2020-10-23 18:12:09 boringcactus hey who owns the mailing list
2020-10-23 18:12:26 @tomasino um, i forget
2020-10-23 18:14:30 boringcactus bc if we've got people from a harassment message board promoting projects where they've thrown some racial slurs into the license then that seems like a good thing to not let people do on the mailing list
2020-10-23 18:17:33 ericonr unless there was another one, I think I see the message. ew
2020-10-23 18:18:36 boringcactus https://f.boringcactus.com/2020-10-23_12-18-07.png the license, with the slurs blurred but not difficult to infer from context
2020-10-23 18:18:44 ericonr they even use the fucking AGPL3 logo as if it was just a normal variation
2020-10-23 18:20:32 raiz 4chan culture
2020-10-23 18:20:44 felix has quit (Client exited)
2020-10-23 18:23:40 @tomasino ugh, why?
2020-10-23 18:24:04 boringcactus edgelords gonna edgelord, i guess
2020-10-23 18:24:26 boringcactus all you can really do is say "go be an edgelord somewhere else"
2020-10-23 18:43:01 jcowan And such people are generally judgment-proof.
2020-10-23 18:50:40 acdw yeah i was wondering about that
2020-10-23 18:51:56 acdw It's hosted on orbitalfox.eu
2020-10-23 18:52:11 acdw of course that's obvios tho
2020-10-23 18:52:29 acdw ben might know?
2020-10-23 18:53:14 @ben what's up
2020-10-23 18:53:21 @ben what do i know?
2020-10-23 18:53:34 @ben i have no idea who hosts the list
2020-10-23 18:53:41 acdw do you know who is in charge of the gemini ML? Or are you another ben than the one who has a logarion?
2020-10-23 18:53:49 acdw oh ah
2020-10-23 18:53:50 @ben what's a logarion
2020-10-23 18:53:51 acdw nvm then, sorry
2020-10-23 18:54:02 acdw https://kwiecien.us/
2020-10-23 18:54:10 @ben nope i'm https://benharr.is
2020-10-23 18:54:25 acdw yeah, I thought it was a different ben... don't know their nick tho
2020-10-23 18:54:27 acdw soryr to bother you
2020-10-23 18:56:17 raiz getting a 4channer banned is calling for trouble, as long as he's not actively harrasing anyone directly, it'd be wise to just let it go, some people are gonna have different opinions and ideas and you can't change that
2020-10-23 18:56:39 acdw oof i didn't think about that
2020-10-23 18:57:20 boringcactus that's what they're counting on, though
2020-10-23 18:57:25 boringcactus the "i'm not touching you" defense
2020-10-23 18:57:40 raiz I doubt he'd post again
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2020-10-23 19:16:24 boringcactus well, there's a quick and easy way to make sure of that
2020-10-23 19:16:41 boringcactus (quick and easy once we figure out who runs the mailing list)
2020-10-23 19:16:46 login what do you mean judgement-proof?
2020-10-23 19:17:24 boringcactus if you go "hey nobody likes it when you do that" they'll respond with "lol owned" and then half a dozen slurs
2020-10-23 19:18:51 lukee yuk, I feel repulsed at this
2020-10-23 19:22:53 login ah, i see
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2020-10-23 19:22:53 login so they take advantage of vulnerability
2020-10-23 19:23:17 nihilazo hi, new here! Might be coming here for help with my gemini site in the future
2020-10-23 19:23:58 raiz hey nihilazo
2020-10-23 19:23:59 acdw o/
2020-10-23 19:24:13 nihilazo but rn I have no gemini sute lol
2020-10-23 19:24:16 nihilazo s/sute/site
2020-10-23 19:25:00 acdw oh nihilazo: you've got toki pona right? There was an abortive effort to get some toki pona stuff up on a wiki in gemini space: https://transjovian.org:1965/
2020-10-23 19:25:19 acdw (also avaiable with gemini://transjovian.org)
2020-10-23 19:26:17 nihilazo ah, cool
2020-10-23 19:28:39 nihilazo rn I'm using amfora as a gemini browser, is it a good one? I picked the one that was most popular in the AUR
2020-10-23 19:29:11 nihilazo it doesn't seem to be able to open local gemini files, so will I need a local gemini server for testing? What's a good gemini server program to use (for testing and for deploying on my site)?
2020-10-23 19:29:18 nihilazo (sorry for question spam)
2020-10-23 19:29:48 acdw as far as browsers go, it's up to you! If you like the CLI, amfora is good. A good GUI is kristall, or I use elpher on Emacs
2020-10-23 19:31:28 acdw as far as local stuff ---- you could try https://tildegit.org/solderpunk/molly-brown (what breadpunk uses)
2020-10-23 19:31:46 acdw and gemcert by solderpunk to make a cert for your test server .... but i don't know how to do any of that tbh
2020-10-23 19:31:54 acdw i thik you'd just ... do it. but i'm not sure
2020-10-23 19:32:54 nihilazo oh
2020-10-23 19:33:14 nihilazo I have a real ssl cert for my real server already, can I use it for gemini if I already use it for http?
2020-10-23 19:33:27 admicos as long as the domain is correct it'll work
2020-10-23 19:33:29 nihilazo for testing, I really just want to see if formatting and stuff is correct before I go publishing anything
2020-10-23 19:33:51 admicos but - since gemini clients use "trust on first use" it might be a great idea t o have a cert with long expiry times
2020-10-23 19:34:03 admicos gemcert for example generates certificates with 5 years of expiry
2020-10-23 19:34:15 admicos otherwise people will need to re-trust your certificates every time they expire
2020-10-23 19:35:26 acdw yes
2020-10-23 19:35:51 nihilazo I'm just using certbot
2020-10-23 19:37:49 raiz you dont have to bring CA to gemspace as it is irrelevent here
2020-10-23 19:38:06 raiz but no one would stop you
2020-10-23 19:38:16 nihilazo wait so I'm confused, how do certs work in gemspace
2020-10-23 19:38:24 nihilazo I have a cert from certbot that is on my website
2020-10-23 19:38:29 nihilazo are gemini certs different?
2020-10-23 19:38:35 raiz isn't certbot an acme client?
2020-10-23 19:38:58 acdw nope, they're not ... but there are really stringent requirements on HTTPS TLS certs that gemini doesn't follow
2020-10-23 19:39:27 kiwi-n2898 [ANN] Hi! I wrote a gemini server in julia (called Gemenon.jl), and wrote a service with it. It's an anonymous board, and it's currently hosted at gemini://nixo.xyz . I wrote it today, and I never used anonymous boards by myself, so I don't know if it's of any use. If any of you could give me feedback on it, I'd really appreciate! For example,
2020-10-23 19:39:27 kiwi-n2898 it's working well on elpher but I'm having problem writing contents with bombadillo
2020-10-23 19:39:40 acdw so a regular certbot cert (which is an acme client afaik) will work with a gemini server, but a gemcert-made cert is self-signed so it won't work with HTTPS ... i think
2020-10-23 19:39:46 nihilazo ok
2020-10-23 19:39:57 nihilazo I am kinda confused by all this. I will rejoin tomorrow when I'm more awake
2020-10-23 19:40:02 acdw no worries!
2020-10-23 19:40:09 nihilazo the hardest part will be setting up a server on my server because I am terrible at admin stuff
2020-10-23 19:40:21 nihilazo and molly brown seems confusing to set up
2020-10-23 19:40:34 raiz CA != TLS
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2020-10-23 19:41:04 acdw nihilazo: it's not so bad, really :) It's mostly setting up the config file in the right place, then figuring out how to keep molly-brown running since it doesn't daemonize by itself
2020-10-23 19:41:36 webchatter hi everyone I am really interested in knowing more about gemini. Just reading the site now, what generally is the benefit of it? was it made as an alternative to http for a specific reason?
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2020-10-23 19:46:03 @tomasino there's a bit of backstory on the faq, if i recall
2020-10-23 19:46:28 @tomasino gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/docs/faq.gmi
2020-10-23 19:46:34 @tomasino yeah, talks about the whys
2020-10-23 19:46:39 d3fragg3d just looking over it now.
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2020-10-23 21:00:38 kiedtl wow, amfora is the most beautiful gemini client I've seen so far
2020-10-23 21:00:44 kiedtl new favorite!
2020-10-23 21:01:07 @tomasino :D
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2020-10-23 21:08:49 kiedtl acdw: just wanted to say, your bollux client is really cool!
2020-10-23 21:09:51 acdw thanks kiedtl :)
2020-10-23 21:10:00 acdw it's stil lnot quite .. finisehd
2020-10-23 21:12:21 kiedtl I haven't used it very much *yet*, but it seems pretty usuable
2020-10-23 21:12:41 kiedtl I wonder what a tui gemini client in bash would look like
2020-10-23 21:17:46 acdw :) ty
2020-10-23 21:17:48 acdw write it!
2020-10-23 21:18:18 acdw i was going to try, but couldn't get my head around it. https://github.com/dylanaraps/fff would get ya started with terminal escapes
2020-10-23 21:24:56 kiedtl https://github.com/dylanaraps/birch
2020-10-23 21:25:01 kiedtl I might start with that
2020-10-23 21:25:04 kiedtl idk
2020-10-23 21:27:54 acdw yeah that too -- dylanaraps is really good with bash terminal codes
2020-10-23 21:28:03 acdw well...terminal codes .. in bash
2020-10-23 21:28:28 admicos iirc they nowadays use posix sh instead of bashj
2020-10-23 21:28:32 admicos s/bashj/bash
2020-10-23 21:28:55 acdw oh yes, true
2020-10-23 21:29:05 acdw tho they wrote the pure bash bible as well, so
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2020-10-23 21:56:38 kiedtl he uses both, just uses POSIX when he wants portability
2020-10-23 22:01:02 acdw ah, cool
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2020-10-23 22:06:18 @tomasino I think birch needed bash for the socket stuff
2020-10-23 22:06:39 @tomasino Or something
2020-10-23 22:06:57 acdw yes, for the /dev/tcp/ stuff
2020-10-23 22:07:01 acdw which bash for some reason sets up
2020-10-23 22:09:56 kiedtl I don't think bash sets it up by default, lol
2020-10-23 22:10:28 kiedtl I do wonder why a shell would have networking features though
2020-10-23 22:11:18 acdw kiedtl: I'm 99% sure it does. Like, if you open up a bash terminal and do exec 9<>/dev/tcp/google.com/ it'll open a pipe
2020-10-23 22:11:38 kiedtl hm
2020-10-23 22:11:39 acdw i agree, it makes no sense
2020-10-23 22:11:57 kiedtl I see what you mean
2020-10-23 22:11:59 kiedtl yeah
2020-10-23 22:12:12 acdw I can't on git-bash.exe on Windows :(
2020-10-23 22:12:23 kiedtl oof, so birch won't work there
2020-10-23 22:12:32 kiedtl netcat to the rescue! :p
2020-10-23 22:12:45 acdw hehe
2020-10-23 22:13:01 acdw well for irc, just use xchat portable
2020-10-23 22:13:11 acdw i swear portableapps.com is a godsend
2020-10-23 22:14:23 ericonr you can probably use openssl/brssl as a tunnel for IRC
2020-10-23 22:14:44 ericonr my emacs irc client actually did that
2020-10-23 22:14:54 ericonr no need to have a /dev/tcp :)
2020-10-23 22:15:26 acdw oh nice :)
2020-10-23 22:15:30 acdw what do you use for IRC on emacs?
2020-10-23 22:16:16 ericonr circe
2020-10-23 22:16:21 ericonr I used to, at least
2020-10-23 22:16:52 ericonr wifi to my laptop is all kinds of borked, so I set up weechat on my rpi
2020-10-23 22:18:08 acdw oh yeah, i used circe a bit, it was aight
2020-10-23 22:18:16 acdw but I, too, switched to weechat ---
2020-10-23 22:18:20 acdw rpi is a good idea actually
2020-10-23 22:18:29 ericonr it works great!
2020-10-23 22:18:41 ericonr circe was really bad about reconnections, as well
2020-10-23 22:18:44 acdw i just remembered weechat.el
2020-10-23 22:18:45 acdw omg
2020-10-23 22:18:51 acdw i know what i'm going to do tonight
2020-10-23 22:18:52 ericonr weechat is way better
2020-10-23 22:18:57 ericonr lol, good luck!
2020-10-23 22:19:05 acdw :D thanks
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2020-10-23 22:20:38 acdw ericonr: do you use weechat.el? or you're saying stock weechat is better?
2020-10-23 22:20:59 ericonr acdw: I didn't even know weechat.el existed!
2020-10-23 22:21:09 acdw oh lol
2020-10-23 22:21:12 ericonr here it's just ssh + tmux + weechat
2020-10-23 22:21:13 kiedtl qq: why on earth does gemini want CRLF?
2020-10-23 22:21:19 acdw yeah i'm going to try that out
2020-10-23 22:21:31 acdw kiedtl: I think b/c the other web-style protocols also use CRLF
2020-10-23 22:21:31 ericonr I wanna try mosh sometime
2020-10-23 22:21:33 acdw http e.g.
2020-10-23 22:21:36 acdw mosh is dope
2020-10-23 22:24:28 admicos mosh is amazing
2020-10-23 22:25:00 admicos it doesn't support truecolor or keyboard scroll but being responsive over my terrible internet connection is worth it
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2020-10-23 22:26:32 admicos ah, truecolor works on master, apparently
2020-10-23 22:26:35 admicos still no scrollback
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2020-10-23 22:50:55 jcowan Self-signed certs work for https provided you make sure they are in your system's "trusted cert" directory. Corporate intranets issue them all the time now.
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2020-10-24 00:00:13 d3fragg3d what port does gemini:// use? 1965 ?
2020-10-24 00:00:32 emerson yeah
2020-10-24 00:01:26 d3fragg3d how do domains work? ermm that might be a really silly question but can I just reuse a domain currently being used for http ?
2020-10-24 00:01:38 d3fragg3d ermm I think thats a stupid question but I am asking it anyway :D
2020-10-24 00:02:05 emerson you can, the domain just points to your IP address, so it doesn't matter that it's used by http
2020-10-24 00:02:13 d3fragg3d yeah i assumed as much
2020-10-24 00:02:14 emerson because they're on different ports
2020-10-24 00:02:20 d3fragg3d yeah perfect.
2020-10-24 00:02:37 ericonr just needs to be a domain you own, so I guess you can't have gemini://google.com
2020-10-24 00:02:50 d3fragg3d haha
2020-10-24 00:05:27 d3fragg3d I cant believe I didnt know about this. Makes me wonder how many other awesome things are out there I havent heard of.
2020-10-24 00:15:16 kiedtl oh now I see why the port 1965 was picked. 1965 was the launch year of gemini 7
2020-10-24 00:15:45 kiedtl gemini://vault.transjovian.org/text/en/Gemini%207
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2020-10-24 00:21:16 d3fragg3d ah! I was wondering that too
2020-10-24 00:23:34 d3fragg3d I am guessing servers only server static files right? in general? if I wanted something dynamic I would need an extra layer outside of the gemini server?
2020-10-24 00:23:50 kiedtl I *think* servers can take input?
2020-10-24 00:23:53 kiedtl yes
2020-10-24 00:24:01 kiedtl the gemini search engines do
2020-10-24 00:24:10 d3fragg3d input?
2020-10-24 00:24:16 d3fragg3d in what way?
2020-10-24 00:24:48 kiedtl like, the server sends a request for input, and my browser (amfora) shows a popup asking for input
2020-10-24 00:24:58 kiedtl then i guess the browser sends the input back to the server
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2020-10-24 00:25:26 kiedtl like, see here, d3fragg3d
2020-10-24 00:25:29 kiedtl gemini://gus.guru
2020-10-24 00:25:49 d3fragg3d you mean the search input right? I wonder how thats rendered.
2020-10-24 00:25:50 d3fragg3d hmm
2020-10-24 00:25:55 d3fragg3d interesting
2020-10-24 00:33:45 d3fragg3d lots of dead links on gus :(
2020-10-24 00:36:01 kiedtl :(
2020-10-24 00:36:17 kiedtl afaik it was last crawled... in september?
2020-10-24 00:36:30 kiedtl weird that so many links should go dead in one month
2020-10-24 00:44:42 d3fragg3d Unable to connect server irc.tilde.chat port 6667 [Operation timed out <-
2020-10-24 00:45:13 d3fragg3d whats a working domain for this server? just want to get away from this in browser version
2020-10-24 00:47:25 kiedtl tilde.chat requires ssl
2020-10-24 00:47:30 kiedtl port 6697
2020-10-24 00:47:40 d3fragg3d ah!
2020-10-24 00:47:46 d3fragg3d thanks
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2020-10-24 01:03:52 kiedtl np d3
2020-10-24 01:03:55 kiedtl oh
2020-10-24 01:06:54 kiedtl Ok, there, my buggy crawler has finished, after retrieving a total of 45k links.
2020-10-24 01:07:48 kiedtl I'm pretty sure I've missed a substantial portion of the gemspace though. That crawler crashed quite a few many thousand times; I'll bet some links were lost in the process.
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2020-10-24 02:12:09 jcowan kiedtl: Checkpoint, checkpoint, checkpoint!
2020-10-24 02:12:13 jcowan Save your state.
2020-10-24 02:12:41 kiedtl Yeah. the bug was in the code that saves the state to the file :V
2020-10-24 02:12:51 kiedtl Some of the bugs, that is.
2020-10-24 02:13:15 kiedtl I mean, I could just run the crawler all over again. I'd prefer to not wait another two days, though.
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2020-10-24 10:30:52 nihilazo I wish gemini had an equivalent of file://. Or maybe it does and amfora just doesn't support it
2020-10-24 10:50:10 raiz if that's about accessing .gmi files locally, then it's on the client to implement
2020-10-24 10:50:23 raiz remember, file:// isn't a protocol
2020-10-24 10:50:57 nihilazo true. I guess I need to try some other clients that will support looking at local .gmi files. I just want to be able to make sure my files are good before they go online
2020-10-24 10:51:45 nihilazo even though gemtext is a far saner and more sensible format than HTML, which is always full of errors
2020-10-24 11:50:19 dkibi the best would be a script/serverthat does "expose the current folder as localhost", one of the many server probably can do that :P
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2020-10-24 12:08:21 nihilazo also, can links to other pages in gemini be relative or only absolute?
2020-10-24 12:10:07 felix In practice relative links seem to work fine.
2020-10-24 12:10:22 nihilazo ok
2020-10-24 12:10:39 felix Though there may be quirks. On Flounder.online it has to be a filename.
2020-10-24 12:11:07 felix On Ctrl-c.club it can be something like ./ or ../
2020-10-24 12:11:14 felix Not sure what server we're running.
2020-10-24 12:12:58 nihilazo I'm planning to use my own server and set something up. Not sure what server software to use still
2020-10-24 12:14:31 felix Good luck either way!
2020-10-24 12:18:33 kiedtl h
2020-10-24 12:18:36 kiedtl oops
2020-10-24 12:55:26 felix Come to think of it, that should be the client's problem.
2020-10-24 12:55:47 felix Since Gemini servers expect full, absolute URLs by definition.
2020-10-24 12:55:54 felix But it doesn't seem to be so simple.
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2020-10-24 14:19:02 ericonr felix: gemserv (which I have used as a localhost server) doesn't take relative paths at all
2020-10-24 14:19:34 ericonr so I kinda implemented realpath(3) and that was that :)
2020-10-24 14:19:50 felix Well, the server itself shouldn't. It's supposed to expect absolute URLs from the client.
2020-10-24 14:20:17 felix Including the domain name and schema.
2020-10-24 14:22:05 felix But Flounder.online isn't just a server, it parses gemtext to render HTML, so.
2020-10-24 14:22:12 felix Maybe that's why.
2020-10-24 14:23:53 ~tiwesdaeg besides gemserv, do any servers allow executing cgi from the gemini root directory?
2020-10-24 14:27:36 felix Dunno.
2020-10-24 14:30:16 acdw you could check all these: gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/software/
2020-10-24 14:32:54 ericonr felix: oh, I see
2020-10-24 16:58:08 jcowan Do clients generally assign any meaning to fragments in URLs?
2020-10-24 16:59:14 acdw i don't think so
2020-10-24 16:59:50 acdw i think the issue would be, you'd have to have some sort of convention on how to convert fragments to navigable things, since gemtext doesn't have anchors like html
2020-10-24 17:06:56 jcowan I would propose a subset of the text/plain fragment syntax: either #line=10 or #line=(10,20), since text/gemini is line-oriented.
2020-10-24 17:07:34 felix That's fragile to say the least.
2020-10-24 17:07:36 jcowan This could be shown by highlighting, or scrolling to the first line
2020-10-24 17:13:10 acdw yeah i'm not a huge fan of that, since as felix said, it's fragile -- when someone edits a document it'll be all out of whack
2020-10-24 17:19:39 jcowan True. But it doesn't require any changes to the format either.
2020-10-24 17:20:03 jcowan I suspect that other than blogs, most Gemini pages are currently pretty static.
2020-10-24 17:21:14 raiz why can't you live with limitations of the format?
2020-10-24 17:21:50 raiz if it is absolutely necessary, you can have a gemtext page as an index, like in a book, and the rest of the chapters presented as separate pages
2020-10-24 17:22:09 raiz with link to prev/index/next on the end of each page
2020-10-24 17:22:26 felix Hardly anyone seems content to settle for Gemini's current limitations.
2020-10-24 17:22:40 felix We discuss extensions more than anything else.
2020-10-24 17:23:09 felix All of them end up being shot down with prejudice, yet proposals keep coming.
2020-10-24 17:23:09 acdw if you're talking about :^), that was (mostly) a joke
2020-10-24 17:23:23 acdw I like the limitations, ultimately, b/c it's an exercise in minimalism
2020-10-24 17:23:26 felix No, I'm talking about overall trends here.
2020-10-24 17:24:39 felix Somehow, the appeal to minimalism always wins, yes.
2020-10-24 17:25:39 raiz speaking of which, is there any where I can reference to check how much progress is done until we have a finalized precise spec?
2020-10-24 17:26:54 acdw as such, not that i know of, raiz. solderpunk did post on the ML some time ago stating that for all intents and purposes, it's finished
2020-10-24 17:27:05 acdw like, any changes will be to patch holes, not add new features
2020-10-24 17:27:10 felix Progress? What progress? Last time I heard, the spec updates in spring were expected to be final.
2020-10-24 17:27:20 raiz of course, I'm against features as of currently
2020-10-24 17:27:39 acdw yeah felix, i thought so too
2020-10-24 17:27:46 raiz "This is an increasingly less rough sketch of an actual spec for Project Gemini. Although not finalised yet, further changes to the specification are likely to be relatively small."
2020-10-24 17:28:12 raiz I'm not expecting any more changes, but an official paper
2020-10-24 17:28:43 acdw oh like, RFC-Style?
2020-10-24 17:28:46 acdw I don't think there is one
2020-10-24 17:28:54 acdw You could post on the ML to ask
2020-10-24 17:29:13 raiz I don't think there would be one, but let me give an example...
2020-10-24 17:30:11 felix Frankly, I get the distinct impression Gemini's deflating again.
2020-10-24 17:30:44 raiz refer to 5.4.2, see how much descriptive it is, then refer to 5.5.2 and 5.5.2 and see how much it explains
2020-10-24 17:30:52 raiz ^ acdw
2020-10-24 17:30:57 raiz felix: in what way?
2020-10-24 17:31:04 felix People don't seem to know what to actually do with it.
2020-10-24 17:31:21 raiz agreed
2020-10-24 17:31:23 felix There's fatigue related to software. Choosing it. Running it.
2020-10-24 17:32:11 acdw idk about "deflating" --- i think it's just not *new* any more, so there's no rush around figuring out things to do with it.
2020-10-24 17:32:21 acdw people are still posting, etc. it's just a thing now
2020-10-24 17:32:34 felix Yeah. Largely the same people though.
2020-10-24 17:33:24 acdw i don't think that's a problem unless you're a VC
2020-10-24 17:33:29 acdw -funded company *
2020-10-24 17:33:40 acdw which gemini isn't, and acutally a lot of the culture is pretty against that
2020-10-24 17:34:21 acdw raiz: What do you mean? Those two points seem pretty equally descriptifve
2020-10-24 17:34:31 acdw just seems that links are more complicated than list items
2020-10-24 17:37:04 raiz it's not about clarification, I get that "* " means mandatory whitespace and ">" means no whitespace, however, 5.4.2 shows examples along with a metasyntax representation like an RFC, while 5.5.2 and 5.5.3 look like they're fron different document
2020-10-24 17:37:14 raiz I don't know how to say it, but it looks inconsistent
2020-10-24 17:37:31 raiz I'm assuming 5.5.* were added later and not thought much about
2020-10-24 17:37:52 raiz that's why I'm eager to see a more professional done spec paper
2020-10-24 17:37:55 acdw OH okay, yes they were, and now I get what you mean
2020-10-24 17:38:12 acdw hoenstly i don't think there are plans, but you'dhave to ask solderpunk
2020-10-24 17:38:22 acdw i'm sure you could try writing it yourself and submitting it for review
2020-10-24 17:38:54 raiz I'd have that as a possible distant plan, but for now, I'm just a newcomer, I'm still experimenting with the protocol
2020-10-24 17:39:02 acdw oh okay
2020-10-24 17:39:12 acdw you liking it?
2020-10-24 17:39:16 raiz of course
2020-10-24 17:39:19 acdw :D
2020-10-24 17:40:32 raiz the only problem I had when I was implementing 5.5.2 and 5.5.3 was when people in this channel suggested I handle lines with whitespace separator and without, but in the mailing list, someone said this is against the spec
2020-10-24 17:40:46 raiz I assumed because it isn't final, the conventions have changed
2020-10-24 17:40:52 raiz I was wrong
2020-10-24 17:42:00 acdw oh right -- well, the thing is, the spec is different than convention
2020-10-24 17:42:37 acdw as far as lists go, the * has a space because some one might type
2020-10-24 17:42:47 acdw *something in bold* <- like that, at the beginning of a line
2020-10-24 17:42:56 acdw and not mean a list -- but rarely do they type
2020-10-24 17:43:02 acdw >_< or something similar at the beginning
2020-10-24 17:43:09 raiz lol
2020-10-24 17:43:14 acdw tho,,,,, i think the whitespace should always be expected, myself
2020-10-24 17:43:29 acdw so like, in my browser bollux, i go against what's technically spc (I think)
2020-10-24 17:45:00 raiz in the extreme case of demand, an additional escape syntax can be added
2020-10-24 17:45:06 raiz \>
2020-10-24 17:45:38 raiz where \ means print the character next as literal
2020-10-24 17:45:53 raiz so > doesn't get handled as a quote
2020-10-24 17:46:07 raiz but yeah, that'll be unnecessary
2020-10-24 17:48:40 acdw that's been talked about as well, and generally not accepted
2020-10-24 17:48:59 raiz for the greater good :)
2020-10-24 17:49:14 acdw I think the convention is generally " >_<", with a space in front
2020-10-24 17:49:29 acdw well actually the \ will work too --- it just won't be edited out
2020-10-24 17:49:30 raiz makes sense
2020-10-24 17:49:38 acdw the greater good :D
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2020-10-24 17:55:08 jcowan A zero-width space (U+200B) will also work and will either not be displayed or will be displayed as a space.
2020-10-24 17:56:52 boringcactus oh that's clever, i hadn't thought of that
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2020-10-24 17:57:31 acdw oh that's really smart jcowan
2020-10-24 17:57:59 jcowan Plain text has a lot more bells and whistles than 8-bit text ever had.
2020-10-24 17:58:37 @tomasino nice that gemtext is utf-8
2020-10-24 18:00:32 acdw hell yes
2020-10-24 18:00:43 raiz a true gem
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2020-10-24 18:00:58 acdw honestly i think if http had been made up with utf-8, there'd be fewer weirdnesses in it
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2020-10-24 18:07:12 lukee hello fellow gemini passengers
2020-10-24 18:08:09 lukee acdw: if gopher had been specified in TLS+JSON we probably wouldnt be here either
2020-10-24 18:08:33 ★ lukee rewrites tech history on the hoof
2020-10-24 18:10:52 ★ tomasino adds actual gophers into the protocol
2020-10-24 18:12:38 jcowan At least on Gemini you do have a fellow passenger
2020-10-24 18:12:56 jcowan Austronaut comment on Mercury: "You don't fly it, you wear it."
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2020-10-24 18:53:08 acdw lukee: you're right
2020-10-24 18:53:29 acdw i think we need a duck protocol
2020-10-24 18:57:03 spacehare 302 ducc taken
2020-10-24 18:57:22 jcowan All protocols are ducks. You know, if it implements the duck-walk protocol, and implemennts the quack protocol, etc etc
2020-10-24 18:57:46 jcowan There's an implementation of JS designed for embedding called DUKTAPE
2020-10-24 19:03:26 lukee if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck...
2020-10-24 19:03:35 lukee it could just be a really ugly swan
2020-10-24 19:04:18 acdw omg yes
2020-10-24 19:04:23 acdw ,grab lukee
2020-10-24 19:04:23 tildebot [Quotes] Quote added
2020-10-24 19:07:13 lukee not my quote, but I like it :)
2020-10-24 19:08:59 lukee seems to be by Timmothy Radman originally
2020-10-24 19:14:57 acdw haha nice
2020-10-24 19:14:59 lukee I think I saw it as one of the quotes that GUS puts on the bottom of search results
2020-10-24 19:15:05 acdw i like those quotes!
2020-10-24 19:18:49 nihilazo how does GUS work?
2020-10-24 19:20:49 acdw you mean how do you use it? Or how does it crawL? I have no idea about the ladder
2020-10-24 19:20:54 acdw s/dd/tt
2020-10-24 19:21:42 nihilazo how it crawls, and also how it pops up the box thing because I didn't think gemini had anything like forms
2020-10-24 19:22:08 acdw the crawling thing i have no idea about, however for the input, that's request code 10 (or 11)
2020-10-24 19:23:14 nihilazo ah, ok
2020-10-24 19:23:31 acdw basically the server sends "10 Search GUS" (or whatever the text is) and closes the connection. then your client passes that question on to you, and then (I think) encodes it as a query to the URL and resends
2020-10-24 19:23:50 acdw yeah, that is it
2020-10-24 19:24:01 acdw so I go to gemini://gus.guru/search
2020-10-24 19:24:18 acdw server sends 10 Search query
2020-10-24 19:24:31 acdw your client displays that however it does
2020-10-24 19:24:34 acdw you type something in
2020-10-24 19:24:50 acdw your client requests gemini://gus.guru/search?something
2020-10-24 19:26:18 spacehare nice, didn't know how that worked previously
2020-10-24 19:26:37 acdw yep!
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2020-10-24 21:55:03 kiedtl You don't need that much ram
2020-10-24 21:57:00 ★ ram exhales
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2020-10-24 23:26:37 ★ jcowan tries to find a suitably lightweight HTTP/HTML browser
2020-10-24 23:26:48 jcowan I'm using Midori at the moment. Any recommendations?
2020-10-24 23:27:14 jcowan I wouldn't try to do Internet commerce on this; I just want to surf the mostly-read-only Web.
2020-10-24 23:38:05 raiz graphical I assume?
2020-10-24 23:39:28 raiz try netsurf
2020-10-24 23:39:33 raiz it has few dependencies
2020-10-24 23:40:16 raiz the engine is built by the devs, not relying on some third party *cough*webkitgtk*cough*
2020-10-24 23:40:57 raiz https://www.netsurf-browser.org/
2020-10-24 23:41:35 raiz anyway, I think I'll call it a night
2020-10-24 23:41:40 @tomasino nite!
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2020-10-25 00:22:37 jcowan raiz: Thanks, I'll look at it. I think the last time I tried it wouldn't build.
2020-10-25 01:07:05 kiedtl netsurf is really good.
2020-10-25 01:07:27 kiedtl There's also dild^Hlo, but it's really basic (having no support for CSS)
2020-10-25 01:45:18 boringcactus https://qutebrowser.org/ is a thing i've seen some people use, if you want a memorize-all-the-keyboard-shortcuts vim/emacs type experience
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2020-10-25 07:58:00 raiz although not stated, I assume if a response header contains no <META> then <WHITESPACE> should be discarded and send back only <STATUS><CR><LF>
2020-10-25 07:58:06 raiz is that correct?
2020-10-25 08:00:13 raiz I'm thinking instead of literally: <STATUS><SPACE><META><CR><LF> | <STATUS>[<SPACE><META>]<CR><LF>
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2020-10-25 10:45:07 raiz wow, I just realized something...
2020-10-25 10:47:20 raiz I using netcat to browser gemspace, I realized gemini.circumlunar.space index.gmi had more than one whitespace character in link lines separating link and label, I referred back the spec and I noticed that I didn't realize the spec allowed for any number of whitespace characters including tabs
2020-10-25 10:47:36 raiz s/^I/I'm/
2020-10-25 10:47:42 raiz s/browser/browse/
2020-10-25 10:48:17 raiz now I wonder if this applies to whitespace after #, ## and ###
2020-10-25 10:53:14 raiz I'm gonna write to the mailing list...
2020-10-25 11:48:13 jcowan META must always be present, though in 4x, 5x, and 6x response it is not really part of the protocol: it is meant for human eyes only.
2020-10-25 11:50:05 raiz so for example, if server returns code 40, META would be the error message the client displays?
2020-10-25 11:51:35 raiz I tried asking for unavailable path at gemini.circumlunar.space using nc, got "51 Not found!", so I assume META is error message for client to display?
2020-10-25 11:51:44 jcowan So for example "51 Not found" or "51 Never heard of it" or "51 No such luck, Doc" or "51 Non ho idea di quello che stai chiedendo" are all valid responses, but not just "51".
2020-10-25 11:52:00 raiz I see
2020-10-25 11:53:08 raiz so if META is required as part of the protocol it will always be present, and if META is not part of the protocol it is also present for information
2020-10-25 11:53:35 raiz as clients are not forced to handle all specified codes, they can just rely on the server explaining the error
2020-10-25 11:54:04 raiz brilliant
2020-10-25 12:06:08 jcowan It's a lot better to rely on the codes.
2020-10-25 12:06:46 jcowan I once needed to write an FTP server, and I used a lot of silly phrases in the response lines.
2020-10-25 12:06:59 raiz lol
2020-10-25 12:07:21 jcowan knowing that while the client might expose them or not, it wouldn't care about the content.
2020-10-25 12:07:38 raiz of course I will rely on response codes, I'm not writing a client, I'm writing a server this time, so I'll be writing the responses :P
2020-10-25 12:07:54 raiz 51 You're lost buddy
2020-10-25 12:08:07 raiz jk jk
2020-10-25 12:08:48 raiz I'm just fascinated by how clients can only read the first digit of the response code and that's it
2020-10-25 12:09:10 raiz but the best approach would be to read the full header anyway
2020-10-25 12:10:54 raiz also, because connection closes right after the transaction, this removes the need for fork()
2020-10-25 12:11:38 jcowan For example, on login failure I sent "530 Don't know yah! Don't know yah! Don't know yah!"
2020-10-25 12:11:46 raiz lol
2020-10-25 12:13:23 jcowan AFAIK no one has written a high-throughput server like Apache, nginx, or aolserver.
2020-10-25 12:14:17 raiz I never read the code for molly-brown, but it can be easily done there with goroutines
2020-10-25 12:14:31 raiz async handling, that is
2020-10-25 12:15:04 raiz listener gets a connection, spawn new goroutine and handle it there
2020-10-25 12:16:20 jcowan yes, that is the One True Way to concurrency IMAO
2020-10-25 12:19:18 jcowan and yes, m-b does look impressive (and has a great name)
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2020-10-25 15:08:14 nihilazo is molly-brown the recommended software to use for new servers?
2020-10-25 15:10:18 felix I doubt there's one recommended server, but quite a few people seem to favor Molly Brown.
2020-10-25 15:10:54 nihilazo ok
2020-10-25 15:32:32 nihilazo not sure if I want to deal with markdown directly myself to convert to gemtext or convert from hiccup. I think markdown itself is the easier starting point but I have no idea how I'll parse it
2020-10-25 15:34:45 felix Me either. There's a few converters out there by now.
2020-10-25 15:36:24 nihilazo the main problem I have is that I have things like bullet-pointed lists of links in my markdown that I want to convert well
2020-10-25 15:36:57 nihilazo I guess I will just have to try things
2020-10-25 15:36:58 jcowan The client is likely to support a bullet, though you don't control what it is.
2020-10-25 15:37:15 nihilazo yeah, a bullet point list of links in markdown is just a bunch of links in gemtext though
2020-10-25 15:37:30 nihilazo because they wouldn't flow together in weird ways like they would in markdown if it wasn't a list
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2020-10-25 18:15:33 nihilazo I think I got generating my site working! Now to host it
2020-10-25 18:21:50 jcowan I got Agena working with Lagrange before, but now it isn't. I set the gopher proxy to localhost, but Lagrange never even contacts it. (I can do so using openssl, though, so Agena itself is fine.) I tried gemini://localhost as well, but no help.
2020-10-25 18:22:29 jcowan Anyone have an idea to try next?
2020-10-25 18:23:47 jcowan I patched agena to flush its log after every output, but haven't changed it otherwise.
2020-10-25 18:27:07 acdw nihilazo: awesome :) jcowan: IDK sorry
2020-10-25 18:42:12 nihilazo should I generate new certificates or use the ones I use for my http site for my gemini site?
2020-10-25 18:44:26 thefunkyspaw I'm writing an html to gemini parser. It's going to be a while, but my workflow will be this: restructured text -> HTML -> gemini
2020-10-25 18:45:09 thefunkyspaw As far as lists go, I think I'm going to explicitly escape any bullet points and just use hyphens indented by a tab or a certain number of spaces
2020-10-25 18:45:28 thefunkyspaw gemini doesn't support nested lists, so I'd rather work around lists than directly use them
2020-10-25 18:47:59 acdw thefunkyspaw: why not restructured text -> gemini directly?
2020-10-25 18:49:20 thefunkyspaw restructured text is actually very complicated to parse. I can use pandoc to output html (which I need anyway) and then manipulate the XML document with beautiful soup to get the text I want.
2020-10-25 18:49:44 thefunkyspaw If I were starting in markdown, I'd definitely convert directly.
2020-10-25 18:50:01 acdw oh ah, makes senes. you could *maybe* use a lua script with pandoc to define a custom output
2020-10-25 18:50:45 thefunkyspaw I agree, but my approach to pre-parsers and post-parsers is all in python. I might have to change course, though.
2020-10-25 18:51:16 thefunkyspaw My "intermediate format" is essentially the beautiful soup model of the pandoc output. I'm not sure how sustainable that is.
2020-10-25 18:51:29 acdw oh yeah, this isn't a filter, it's a custom writer: https://pandoc.org/MANUAL.html#custom-writers
2020-10-25 18:51:57 acdw so you do a pandoc -t native | filter | pandoc -f native -t <whatever> ?
2020-10-25 18:52:06 acdw that's basically what filters do except they use json
2020-10-25 18:52:09 acdw so you're good
2020-10-25 18:52:13 thefunkyspaw I use the python pandoc bindings
2020-10-25 18:52:28 thefunkyspaw its... not ideal 😁
2020-10-25 18:52:57 thefunkyspaw I can probably muddle through this faster than I can learn lua
2020-10-25 18:53:05 acdw ah, lol
2020-10-25 18:53:18 acdw have you tried panflute? It's pretty popular
2020-10-25 18:53:30 thefunkyspaw no, I haven't, I'll have to read up on it!
2020-10-25 18:53:52 acdw tho also ... lua is honestly pretty easy. it's very small
2020-10-25 18:54:31 thefunkyspaw I will probably end up using panflute, lol
2020-10-25 18:54:56 acdw haha awesome
2020-10-25 18:55:10 nihilazo I'm running molly brown on my server now but I can't seem to connect to it
2020-10-25 18:55:28 nihilazo actually, nvm for now, gotta get it running with systemd properly and then I can debug
2020-10-25 18:57:04 thefunkyspaw A long time ago I decided I was going to master C and Python and use it for everything. Lua is definitely interesting, though. If I ever build a smart watch I'll probably use C or LUA.
2020-10-25 18:57:20 acdw ooh nice
2020-10-25 18:58:04 ~tiwesdaeg so, tilde.pink just switched to molly-brown
2020-10-25 18:58:09 ~tiwesdaeg we'll see how this goes
2020-10-25 18:58:33 acdw it works pretty good
2020-10-25 18:58:41 acdw at least as far as breadpunk usees it
2020-10-25 18:59:17 thefunkyspaw probably need to update gemini://tilde.pink/docs/gemini.gmi
2020-10-25 19:07:03 nihilazo how do I set up keys for my gemini server?
2020-10-25 19:07:30 acdw the easiest imo is using gemcert from solderpunk
2020-10-25 19:07:48 acdw but you can do it with a basic openssl command too --- I don't know the specific invocatoin howeve
2020-10-25 19:08:11 acdw basically, you make the keys, which are files. then you'll pass the keys' paths to the molly-brown invocation on the command line
2020-10-25 19:09:09 nihilazo ok, I'll generate them with gemcert. Where should I put them in the filesystem?
2020-10-25 19:09:36 acdw I think molly-brown has default paths ... ? maybe. I'd check the README/man page for that.
2020-10-25 19:09:49 acdw Otherwise, wherever you want. Just pass the paths to molly-brown
2020-10-25 19:10:02 acdw on breadpunk.club, they're in a special folder /bread/somethin
2020-10-25 19:11:43 nihilazo ok
2020-10-25 19:15:35 nihilazo OK, I got the server running! But when I try and go there in amfora, it says "Permanent Failure: No proxying to other hosts or ports!"
2020-10-25 19:15:54 nihilazo I'm not sure what's going on, unless nginx is stepping in somewhere and messing stuff up
2020-10-25 19:16:52 nihilazo but I can't see why that would be happening. Molly brown isn't trying to do anything proxy-related
2020-10-25 19:17:29 acdw what domain name is molly-brown set up to host?
2020-10-25 19:17:59 nihilazo ahhh
2020-10-25 19:18:03 nihilazo one sec
2020-10-25 19:18:38 nihilazo IT WORKS!
2020-10-25 19:19:16 acdw Aewsome!
2020-10-25 19:19:21 acdw the host change worked?
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2020-10-25 19:22:16 nihilazo yeah, got some content troubles but itwont.work's gemini 1 has had a successful launch!
2020-10-25 19:22:18 nihilazo :D
2020-10-25 19:22:29 nihilazo just gotta fix some issues with my converter
2020-10-25 19:22:37 acdw oh nice :)
2020-10-25 19:46:41 nihilazo gemini://itwont.work
2020-10-25 19:46:53 nihilazo it's live! If anything is broken please tell me, I want to fix it
2020-10-25 19:55:04 raiz nice
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2020-10-25 20:44:02 acdw awesome
2020-10-25 20:44:54 acdw hey i see it! nice job nihilazo!
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2020-10-25 21:27:54 zephryn hello again!
2020-10-25 21:31:06 acdw o/
2020-10-25 21:31:49 zephryn i need to spend more time on here
2020-10-25 21:32:04 zephryn been busy messing with matrix for the past few days
2020-10-25 21:37:03 acdw ooh matricx
2020-10-25 21:37:56 xfnw matrix--
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2020-10-25 21:41:04 d3fragg3d any documentation around on creating web sites for gemini? whats possible? what isnt etc?
2020-10-25 21:41:39 acdw Check out the spec on gemini.circumlunar.space, there's text/gemini on there
2020-10-25 21:41:55 acdw however gemini can serve any file type.... but a lot of clients won't bother rendering e.g. html
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2020-10-25 21:44:17 d3fragg3d acdw: what do you mean? in https://gemini.circumlunar.space/docs/specification.html ?
2020-10-25 21:44:26 acdw yes
2020-10-25 21:44:54 acdw check out section 5
2020-10-25 21:45:06 acdw or there's a cheat sheet around somewhere
2020-10-25 21:45:24 d3fragg3d ok I'll read through it. you got a link to the cheatsheet?
2020-10-25 21:46:43 acdw gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/docs/cheatsheet.gmi
2020-10-25 21:47:03 acdw or https://portal.mozz.us/gemini/gemini.circumlunar.space/docs/cheatsheet.gmi
2020-10-25 21:47:53 d3fragg3d cheers
2020-10-25 21:48:19 acdw :)
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2020-10-25 23:16:32 zephryn welcome back
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2020-10-26 01:53:32 thefunkyspaw converting html to gemtext poses the kind of questions you thought you'd only have to answer in an algorithms class
2020-10-26 01:54:04 thefunkyspaw like, "write a recursive function that acts on all bottom level child nodes only once
2020-10-26 01:54:29 thefunkyspaw I'm enjoying it, but my brain is also pretty tired
2020-10-26 01:56:19 kiedtl lol. have fun :p
2020-10-26 01:56:32 kiedtl also, I'd like to see the result of whatever you're doing, when you're done :)
2020-10-26 01:57:13 thefunkyspaw I look forward to sharing! It might be neat to see what happens when sites like cnn are converted
2020-10-26 01:57:31 kiedtl oooh. that'd be pretty interesting
2020-10-26 01:57:33 kiedtl gemnews!
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2020-10-26 09:16:13 lukee thefunkyspaw: you might want to take a look at https://github.com/LukeEmmet/html2gemini - which does exactly that, written in Go. There is also html2gmi that wraps it as a command line app.
2020-10-26 09:17:24 lukee also https://github.com/LukeEmmet/duckling-proxy which is a http via gemini proxy which converts the content on the fly
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2020-10-26 10:08:32 thefunkyspaw lukee / that looks pretty neat!
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2020-10-26 11:44:54 jcowan I figured out why Lagrange proxy configuration wasn't working for me: you have to specify the proxy host with an IP address, because whatever Lagrange uses for hostname resolution does not respect /etc/hosts, at least on Mac.
2020-10-26 11:45:20 jcowan You can't access a local Gemini server as "gemini://localhost/blah/blah" either.
2020-10-26 11:45:28 jcowan Filing a bug...
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2020-10-26 21:04:04 epoch if a gemini client isn't sending SNI, should I refuse the request?
2020-10-26 21:04:22 epoch very little about SNI is in the spec or best practices
2020-10-26 21:04:27 epoch except "SNI is mandatory"
2020-10-26 21:04:45 epoch and "SNI" isn't in any of the subjects of any mails in the list
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2020-10-26 21:12:32 rb100 refusing it seems a little extreme
2020-10-26 21:12:49 CommunistWolf if you know how to serve it, might as well
2020-10-26 21:13:18 CommunistWolf just don't do a caddy and return a random site if you can't work out which one to serve
2020-10-26 21:13:49 epoch so... spec should be updated to say SNI is /not/ mandatory?
2020-10-26 21:13:56 rb100 most web servers "just serve" one
2020-10-26 21:14:28 epoch (I sent the question to the mailing list too btw)
2020-10-26 21:14:45 rb100 no, i would say you should be forgiving of clients that aren't following spec to the letter
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2020-10-26 21:17:55 CommunistWolf no, I think the spec should still be that it is mandatory
2020-10-26 21:18:04 CommunistWolf it's the old saw of strict in what you send and generous in what you receive
2020-10-26 21:18:35 epoch yeah
2020-10-26 21:19:14 CommunistWolf if your process knows it only has a single site to serve, it doesn't particularly hurt to ignore SNI
2020-10-26 21:19:32 CommunistWolf I'm sure the ML will have Opinions though ^^
2020-10-26 21:20:14 epoch I have a couple sites. If you're not using SNI I'll just pick which site based on request
2020-10-26 21:20:20 epoch and you won't be able to use the proxy
2020-10-26 21:20:36 epoch right now I'm using SNI != request to detect proxying attempts
2020-10-26 21:21:17 CommunistWolf is the certificate valid for all the domains ?
2020-10-26 21:21:39 epoch yeah, I didn't bother to make a different cert for each domain.
2020-10-26 21:21:46 CommunistWolf SNI is pretty much irrelevant in that case ^^
2020-10-26 21:22:38 CommunistWolf it determines the certificate you need to use for the TLS session, but once that's done you can use the request URL - it's analogous to the Host: header in HTTP
2020-10-26 21:24:39 epoch I just have an if SNI == proxy, then pass the whole request to the proxying code.
2020-10-26 21:25:25 epoch not sure how the other gemini proxies actually work.
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2020-10-26 21:42:14 ℹ Topic for #gemini is "Gemini (protocol) enthusiasts - gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | https://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | gopher://gemini.circumlunar.space/ | publically logged in gemspace"
2020-10-26 21:42:14 ℹ Topic set by tomasino (~tomasino@oper.tilde.chat) on Mon, 21 Sep 2020 21:06:53
2020-10-26 21:42:14 ℹ Channel #gemini: 122 nicks (4 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 118 normals)
2020-10-26 21:42:14 ℹ Mode #gemini [+o tomasino] by ChanServ
2020-10-26 21:42:40 ℹ Channel created on Sat, 31 Aug 2019 22:41:57
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2020-10-26 22:24:37 jcowan I see little point in SNI, really, since Gemini passes around full URLs, which makes virtual hosting trivial.
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2020-10-26 22:33:29 kevinsan i read the SNI thing as 'servers must support it' rather than 'servers must insist on it'
2020-10-26 22:35:01 CommunistWolf jcowan: host both foo.com and bar.com on the same server, using mainstream certs, and it quickly becomes useful
2020-10-26 22:36:58 kevinsan CommunistWolf: is this because of a) the hassle of reissuing certs, and/or b) lack of extended domain support by some issuers?
2020-10-26 22:37:03 jcowan If you are a public hosting service, I can see that. But if both domains are under the same authority, looking inside the URL is less error-prone
2020-10-26 22:37:57 CommunistWolf it's basically impossible to get a CA-signed certificate for two unrelated domains as a normal
2020-10-26 22:38:27 CommunistWolf and if you have two separate domains, you need to know which one to send before you can read the gemini URL inside the TLS session that will be established
2020-10-26 22:38:32 CommunistWolf two separate certificates*
2020-10-26 22:39:35 jcowan I see, thanks
2020-10-26 22:43:21 kevinsan epoch: are you in the process of adding to the corpus of gemini servers?
2020-10-26 22:49:49 shou hi, what is the right cgi header syntax? "Content-type:text/gemini;charset=utf-8\r\n\r\n" returns a 42 with the server logging it as "an invalid gemini response header"
2020-10-26 22:52:18 kevinsan shou: the cgi script should output a response code as per the spec. e.g. 20 text/gemini\r\n
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2020-10-26 22:59:09 shou ah that worked thank you.
2020-10-26 23:11:21 epoch kevinsan: I've had my own gemini server for quite a while now, I just don't advertise it much.
2020-10-26 23:11:45 epoch it is a shell-script ran by a slightly modified stunnel
2020-10-26 23:12:34 kevinsan i think i may have seen it a while back - really cool use of tools!
2020-10-26 23:13:59 epoch yeah, I was thinking I'd talked about it to either you or someone else who is in the same brain bucket.
2020-10-26 23:18:18 epoch gemini://thebackupbox.net/~epoch/blog/stunnel
2020-10-26 23:20:50 epoch (also same link, but http:// or https:// will work. my httpd auto-converts gemini to html server-side)
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2020-10-26 23:50:05 kevinsan it's a neat config, really no different from any other vhost-capable server.
2020-10-26 23:51:33 boringcactus cursed project name: gemginx
2020-10-26 23:59:55 acdw lol
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2020-10-27 00:09:00 thefunkyspaw lol, I love it
2020-10-27 00:13:24 boringcactus once https://crowbar-lang.org exists enough that i could write gemginx in Crowbar, i might do that
2020-10-27 00:13:33 boringcactus but i need to take it one overly audacious side project at a time
2020-10-27 00:15:05 CommunistWolf boringcactus: I bumped into your crowbar articles today, and was wondering if you'd bumped into zig
2020-10-27 00:15:11 boringcactus yeah
2020-10-27 00:15:26 acdw ooh crowbar loooks neat
2020-10-27 00:15:32 CommunistWolf excellent, I won't bore you to death with it then ^^
2020-10-27 00:15:48 boringcactus it's definitely intriguing
2020-10-27 00:17:04 jcowan Well, I've read the first post (about Rust) and I agree 100%
2020-10-27 00:18:18 jcowan Well. I disagree about concurrency. (a) Concurrency is not parallelism! (b) Goroutines are good concurrency.
2020-10-27 00:19:24 jcowan I see that's someone else's post, so you are off the hook then.
2020-10-27 00:22:32 jcowan Okay, I think your type "simplification" is a complification, and that's a Lisp programmer speaking.
2020-10-27 00:23:52 boringcactus well
2020-10-27 00:24:13 jcowan I want something that you can pronounce "xyzzy is a pointer to a pointer to an array of ints of size 10. Which means it has to be readable left to right; "auto i: **int[10]. Or better, preferably
2020-10-27 00:24:58 jcowan Also, compiling to C is commonplace, It provides decently fast but still portable compilers. But that's by the way.
2020-10-27 00:25:05 ★ jcowan reads on
2020-10-27 00:25:53 boringcactus my goal there is to divorce the type from the variable name while preserving C syntax in maximally simple cases
2020-10-27 00:27:29 jcowan I think you have to be consistently left to right (as above) or consistently right to left, or it will never be readable in hard cases.
2020-10-27 00:27:51 jcowan So the variable name should be either at the left modulo a keyword, or it should be at the right.
2020-10-27 00:28:31 boringcactus i mean, crowbar has the variable name at the right
2020-10-27 00:29:03 jcowan That's fine, but then you should read right to left for everything else.
2020-10-27 00:29:12 boringcactus ((int[10])*)* xyzzy
2020-10-27 00:29:15 boringcactus you kinda do
2020-10-27 00:29:27 boringcactus pointer to pointer to array-size-10 of int
2020-10-27 00:29:46 jcowan Okay, but then why the parens? int[10]** xyzzy would mean exactly the same thing.
2020-10-27 00:29:55 jcowan See cdecl.org
2020-10-27 00:30:02 jcowan (there's a CLI version, too)
2020-10-27 00:30:19 boringcactus ahh there's a whole fuckin website for it too
2020-10-27 00:30:56 boringcactus the parens become important when you've got, say, the pointer-to-const vs const-pointer dichotomy i bring up in the post
2020-10-27 00:31:51 jcowan If it's consistently RTL, then **const means a const pointer to a pointer, and *const* means a pointer to a const pointer.
2020-10-27 00:32:01 boringcactus yeah but you have to remember how it works
2020-10-27 00:32:10 boringcactus and why memorize when you can read
2020-10-27 00:32:15 jcowan Anyway, the important thing is the consistent order
2020-10-27 00:32:16 ericonr jcowan: does cdecl segfault if you tab inside it?
2020-10-27 00:32:42 ericonr since we are talking about it
2020-10-27 00:33:09 boringcactus oh i asked cdecl for "declare xyzzy as pointer to pointer to array 10 of int" and it said "int (**xyzzy)[10]"
2020-10-27 00:33:31 boringcactus so compared to that i think crowbar is simpler
2020-10-27 00:33:57 jcowan Compared to which, the English (without the little words) or the C? Anything consistent is better than C.
2020-10-27 00:34:02 boringcactus the C
2020-10-27 00:35:08 boringcactus i'm trying to get a Pareto-optimal balance of "good" and "like C"
2020-10-27 00:35:16 ★ jcowan nods
2020-10-27 00:35:18 boringcactus because those are in conflict
2020-10-27 00:35:19 boringcactus lol
2020-10-27 00:35:36 jcowan That's better than C++, which is Dostoyevsky-pessimal
2020-10-27 00:35:52 jcowan You can't make it worse without making at least some C++ programmers better off.
2020-10-27 00:36:16 boringcactus jfisdjiofjdsaiojfadsosdfjid
2020-10-27 00:39:39 jcowan Moving on. Assignments should be statements, not expressions. That fits in with eliminating prefix ++ and --.
2020-10-27 00:40:31 jcowan However, the syntax of for should be for(stmt{, stmt}; expr; stmt{, stmt}), where {} is repetition.
2020-10-27 00:40:41 jcowan And then the comma operator can go
2020-10-27 00:40:45 jcowan (as you already say)
2020-10-27 00:42:14 jcowan Are octal literals really useful? 6-bit bytes and the PDP-11 are pretty dead.
2020-10-27 00:42:25 boringcactus permissions, allegedly
2020-10-27 00:42:51 boringcactus i got rid of em, somebody said i shouldn't, it's not like they actively cause problems if you assign a good prefix (i.e. not 0)
2020-10-27 00:43:25 ★ jcowan nods.
2020-10-27 00:44:15 jcowan I think you should simply adopt Unicode's standard identifier spec rather than making a slightly-different one. For one thing, normalization form KC turns roman IV into I followed by V, which is preferred.
2020-10-27 00:45:07 jcowan I also think you shoudl adopt Unicode's Whitespace class; you are close to it and might as well just use it.
2020-10-27 00:46:23 jcowan Does case imply fallthrough?
2020-10-27 00:49:08 boringcactus oh right unicode has an identifier spec
2020-10-27 00:49:10 boringcactus i honestly forgot
2020-10-27 00:49:50 boringcactus uhhh case does not imply fallthrough, and i have not yet decided if i want a replacement
2020-10-27 00:51:26 jcowan Well, you can add fallthrough as a statement.
2020-10-27 00:51:34 jcowan I also like "case 1-10:"
2020-10-27 00:52:56 ericonr boringcactus: 0o
2020-10-27 00:53:00 ericonr for octal numbers :P
2020-10-27 00:53:07 boringcactus yeah i'm doing that
2020-10-27 00:53:45 ericonr I like the 0b 0o 0x triad
2020-10-27 00:54:26 ericonr but that's the embedded dev in me
2020-10-27 00:54:29 boringcactus i've seen 0c suggested in other contexts, and i like that it's clever, but it's also
2020-10-27 00:54:32 boringcactus clever
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2020-10-27 01:01:49 jcowan I'd like oP followed by hex digits to specify an IEEE single or double float precisely.
2020-10-27 01:02:23 jcowan s/oP/0P
2020-10-27 01:02:37 jcowan or perhaps a different letter
2020-10-27 01:02:56 boringcactus why P?
2020-10-27 01:03:12 boringcactus oh, for precise
2020-10-27 01:03:25 boringcactus i was thinking 0f, for floating-point
2020-10-27 01:03:28 boringcactus or maybe 0xf
2020-10-27 01:03:36 boringcactus wait
2020-10-27 01:03:42 boringcactus can't do 0xf, that overlaps with legal hex
2020-10-27 01:03:52 boringcactus but 0fx might work,
2020-10-27 01:04:31 ericonr hm
2020-10-27 01:04:59 ericonr for floats I honestly like the 1.0f and 1.0d
2020-10-27 01:05:01 ericonr notation
2020-10-27 01:05:32 ericonr typing information is a suffix, base information is a prefix
2020-10-27 01:09:40 jcowan Makes sense to me. Another thing I'd like to do without is values like 1. and .2
2020-10-27 01:09:51 jcowan Decimal points should come between digits.
2020-10-27 01:10:01 boringcactus yeah
2020-10-27 01:10:14 jcowan 0f would be okay
2020-10-27 01:11:51 ericonr jcowan: I kinda impart meaning on 1. constants :P
2020-10-27 01:12:15 ericonr "I want a float, but it this is an exact 1"
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2020-10-27 01:13:22 jcowan how is that different from 1.0?
2020-10-27 01:14:05 jcowan And it's easier to read f(1.0, 2.0, 3.0) than f(1., 2., 3.)
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2020-10-27 01:55:05 ericonr not sure
2020-10-27 01:55:35 ericonr using 1.0 feels like putting significant digits where there should be none
2020-10-27 02:03:02 jcowan If you are dealing with IEEE floats (which is the only practical thing nowadays) then the number of significant digits is fixed.
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2020-10-27 02:42:54 ericonr jcowan: if I give you the result of an experiment as 1.50 instead of 1.5, that can have different meanings
2020-10-27 02:43:07 ericonr that's the logic I'm applying in this case
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2020-10-27 02:43:23 jcowan Then you probably want to use arbitrary-precision decimal floats.
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2020-10-27 02:52:49 CoopDot floating point and fixed point should be different things (not talking about a specific language)
2020-10-27 04:15:13 jcowan I would say, exact and inexact values should be different.
2020-10-27 04:15:40 jcowan What does a non-interactive client normally do on a 1x response?
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2020-10-27 05:59:18 boringcactus gemini://crowbar-lang.org ayy my multi-track side project drifting is paying off*
2020-10-27 05:59:23 boringcactus *no it isn't but let me dream
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2020-10-27 06:15:36 zephryn apologies for all the leave-join messages, was trying to get weechat to work
2020-10-27 06:26:20 alex11 my disappointment is immeasurable and my day is ruined
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2020-10-27 08:02:15 zephryn there we go, (hopefully) no more reconnecting for a while
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2020-10-27 13:11:54 thefunkyspaw zephryn: its nbd, we can filter leave/join messages in our clients
2020-10-27 13:12:59 thefunkyspaw I feel like most "hard-core" IRC users stay connected perpetually and only generate leave/join messages while configuring their clients
2020-10-27 13:13:49 Sario528 I know several people who use IRC daily and still log on and off each day
2020-10-27 13:14:19 @tomasino smart filters ftw
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2020-10-27 13:54:25 ew0k Sario528: I know a few too
2020-10-27 13:54:45 ew0k I log out when I need to reboot my server.
2020-10-27 13:54:54 ew0k which I guess I should do more often, actually
2020-10-27 14:04:00 emerson i usually display all join/part messages but i have them in a much dimmer color
2020-10-27 14:06:13 Sario528 I like the way IRCCloud collapses joins/parts, so you can see them but they don't take nearly as much screen space
2020-10-27 14:34:05 ew0k thelounge.chat does the same
2020-10-27 14:55:34 epoch I think the email I sent to the list got rejected by a bunch of people on the list
2020-10-27 14:56:14 epoch because either the list is setup wrong, or I'm too strict with the spf/dkim/dmarc stuff
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2020-10-27 15:02:24 CoopDot I got that email about SNI, but Gmail is only showing it because I have a filter telling Gmail to never put Gemini ML mail in the spam box
2020-10-27 15:03:43 CoopDot Gmail also insists I should put it in the spam box myself
2020-10-27 15:06:44 epoch I think I'll just make the SFP record less strict until I figure out exactly what's wrong
2020-10-27 15:33:17 jcowan boringcactus: Well, Crowbar is paying off in Whuffie, at least
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2020-10-27 16:18:44 boringcactus lmao
2020-10-27 16:19:05 nixo Hi! Are the two gemini search engines still maintained? I see that huston gives a "certificate expired" error, while GUS index has not been updated in a month (Index updated on: 2020-09-25)
2020-10-27 16:30:20 kiedtl Apparently GUS used to index content every few days, but they stopped for some reason :(
2020-10-27 16:30:32 kiedtl gemini://gus.guru/statistics/historical/overall
2020-10-27 16:30:57 CoopDot Someone posted in the ML about that. GUS is doing a crawl right now but it takes a few days to complete.
2020-10-27 16:37:50 kiedtl does GUS have any docs on what methods they use to index gemspace?
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2020-10-27 16:47:19 nixo kiedtl: thanks! I'll subscribe to the ML then
2020-10-27 16:49:15 CoopDot Natalie Pendragon might hoa
2020-10-27 16:49:44 CoopDot Natalie Pendragon might have writen something about than in the ML
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2020-10-27 17:22:04 kiedtl it appears the GUS' source code is here: https://git.sr.ht/~natpen/gus
2020-10-27 17:22:17 kiedtl at least, from reading the mailing list
2020-10-27 17:22:28 kiedtl oh, that 404's. let me see...
2020-10-27 17:24:53 jcowan Less than two years old, and already bitrot.
2020-10-27 17:25:51 acdw dang 2 years of gemini already?
2020-10-27 17:26:50 CoopDot It started last year, I think
2020-10-27 17:27:33 kiedtl natpen decided to self-host for some reason.
2020-10-27 17:27:35 kiedtl https://natpen.net/code/gus/
2020-10-27 17:28:21 acdw looks like solderpunk's first post in that direction was 2019-03-03
2020-10-27 17:28:25 acdw so ... 1.5 years
2020-10-27 17:28:27 acdw ish
2020-10-27 17:28:29 acdw sort of
2020-10-27 17:32:17 CoopDot 3/3 is an easy date to remember, we could declare it "Gemini Day 2021" next year
2020-10-27 17:41:28 acdw lol awesome
2020-10-27 17:41:32 acdw twin 3's!
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2020-10-27 17:58:07 ew0k Big celebration on March 3rd 2033 😄
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2020-10-27 18:51:50 ew0k https://branch.climateaction.tech/2020/10/10/hands-on-sustainable-web-design/ <— this brings up a fair number of reasons why I hate the web of today
2020-10-27 18:53:55 felix We could start by shutting down BitCoin and the like.
2020-10-27 18:56:49 alex11 "The environmental footprint of the digital world seems intangible to most. Yet our digital systems generate more emissions than the aviation industry."
2020-10-27 18:56:50 alex11 dude.
2020-10-27 18:56:54 alex11 i wasn't aware of that
2020-10-27 18:56:59 felix I doubt it's true.
2020-10-27 18:58:01 felix Been following some people who track the aviation industry.
2020-10-27 18:59:25 felix Also, our only new TV was the very first one in this home, almost 40 years ago. It lasted for 15.
2020-10-27 18:59:39 felix My Palm served me for almost as long too, on and off.
2020-10-27 19:00:04 felix So how about, "dude, you're projecting".
2020-10-27 19:01:27 thefunkyspaw I recently learned that android devices older than 4.4 cannot interoperate with the current TCP protocols used for https
2020-10-27 19:01:59 thefunkyspaw I've always thought https / ssl was unnecessary for most of the web and was being pushed as a way to drive consumption
2020-10-27 19:02:11 felix My crappy old tablet stuck with 4.0 can still surf the web just fine.
2020-10-27 19:02:41 thefunkyspaw Most web servers still offer older TCP modes, but even offering those modes gets your server downgraded on compliance tests
2020-10-27 19:02:53 ericonr but TCP isn't implemented in servers D:
2020-10-27 19:02:57 ericonr it's kernel level
2020-10-27 19:03:17 admicos I assume it's SSL/TLS versions and not TCP
2020-10-27 19:03:21 admicos iirc TCP is still TCP
2020-10-27 19:03:29 felix Obviously.
2020-10-27 19:03:45 thefunkyspaw Sure, I get them mixed up because I'm not a network guy
2020-10-27 19:03:47 felix If anything, certs will expire and not be updated.
2020-10-27 19:04:02 felix My Nokia E5 ran into this issue and I had to retire it.
2020-10-27 19:04:20 ericonr huh, I hadn't thought of that
2020-10-27 19:04:20 felix Still works fine, but only as a phone. :P
2020-10-27 19:04:43 ericonr if you can't put your own browser, it might just be impossible to use it
2020-10-27 19:04:57 thefunkyspaw This is really something that should be fixable as a software update, like backporting new ciphers to old hardware
2020-10-27 19:05:25 ericonr eh, it's not ciphers that are the issue
2020-10-27 19:05:25 admicos yes but where's the money in that
2020-10-27 19:05:25 ericonr a lot of server will accept shit level SSL
2020-10-27 19:05:35 felix And yes, I make a point not to redirect on my websites.
2020-10-27 19:05:44 thefunkyspaw I'm re-running qualsys against my server so I can get the explanation again
2020-10-27 19:05:52 ericonr felix: _that_ is shitty!
2020-10-27 19:05:53 thefunkyspaw it takes forever
2020-10-27 19:05:54 felix I link to the https version by default, but that's it.
2020-10-27 19:05:56 ericonr redirection, I mean
2020-10-27 19:06:12 ericonr forcing https:// can block people who would otherwise be able to access the content
2020-10-27 19:06:19 felix Exactly!
2020-10-27 19:07:21 thefunkyspaw Alright: Android TLS version support https://support.globalsign.com/ssl/general-ssl/tls-protocol-compatibility
2020-10-27 19:07:33 thefunkyspaw SSL labs notice about grade capping https://blog.qualys.com/product-tech/2018/11/19/grade-change-for-tls-1-0-and-tls-1-1-protocols
2020-10-27 19:08:30 ericonr I wonder if something like firefox mobile could just ship nss inside the apk
2020-10-27 19:08:40 ericonr then they wouldn't depend on the OS's support
2020-10-27 19:09:11 felix I think F-Droid does something to help with the issue?
2020-10-27 19:10:01 thefunkyspaw There seems to be a workaround: https://ankushg.com/posts/tls-1.2-on-android/
2020-10-27 19:10:42 admicos if an android app is foss you might bne able to use google's conscrypt library to support newer ssl versions
2020-10-27 19:10:54 admicos https://f-droid.org/en/2020/05/29/android-updates-and-tls-connections.html
2020-10-27 19:11:18 thefunkyspaw fdroid sure is slow today, lol
2020-10-27 19:12:13 thefunkyspaw If apps have to have code added for tls connections to work, I think most of the internet connected apps will stop working with the exception of browsers and maybe apps like facebook. Smaller apps won't have the dev hours to mess with this.
2020-10-27 19:13:03 admicos aside from updating android, which manufacturers sure love to do (!), there isn't any other proper way afaik
2020-10-27 19:13:10 ericonr gah
2020-10-27 19:13:23 ericonr I hope mainline gives reasonable results there
2020-10-27 19:14:02 thefunkyspaw I'm just hoping for OSH phones to pull through for us.
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2020-10-27 19:14:28 wgreenhouse as noted in the blogpost, mainline addressed this by offering "google play services" which is basically a "standard library" application that can be updated separately from when the OEM ended support for the phone
2020-10-27 19:14:58 wgreenhouse the author is proposing some ways to do the same thing without relying on the play store to provide it
2020-10-27 19:15:07 thefunkyspaw yeah
2020-10-27 19:16:52 thefunkyspaw I learned a lot today. Thanks for providing that link!
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2020-10-27 19:27:27 ew0k I've had to retire two budget phones because the OS kept getting bigger when upgrading and the phones didn't have enough memory to fit new upgrades
2020-10-27 19:27:34 acdw ooof
2020-10-27 19:27:41 ew0k not just the OS, ofcourse. Apps too
2020-10-27 19:27:51 acdw that kind of stuff mkaes me think a jitterbug would be a good investment
2020-10-27 19:28:20 ew0k Eventually I'd removed every app I didn't *absolutely need*, but could no longer update the 2FA app needed to do my online banking... so... well
2020-10-27 19:29:34 ew0k I hate how *software* obsoletes perfectly fine hardware at an alarming rate
2020-10-27 19:30:39 ericonr yeah android had a big issue with bloating
2020-10-27 19:30:51 thefunkyspaw Kind of related: I really hate 2FA. Its a great idea in theory, but it is rarely executed well and usually sucks.
2020-10-27 19:30:53 boringcactus if you're fine with your phone being useless as a phone there's always https://postmarketos.org/, which iirc can't actually make calls on most hardware but aside from that does alright for itself
2020-10-27 19:30:57 ericonr thefunkyspaw: eh
2020-10-27 19:31:00 ericonr 2FA is great
2020-10-27 19:31:24 ericonr if they give you a QR code to scan, it's fecking great
2020-10-27 19:31:44 ericonr I have a 2FA client running on my phone and a tiny hodge podge I wrote on my desktop
2020-10-27 19:31:54 ericonr so I have codes at any time
2020-10-27 19:32:01 ericonr hardware keys are even better, of course
2020-10-27 19:32:05 thefunkyspaw Let me give you an example: Vanguard holds retirement accounts. Vanguard requires 2FA. They do 2FA with SMS messages. SMS messages can currently be stolen off the network fairly easily. Some hackers in Germany already did this to another bank in Germany.
2020-10-27 19:32:08 admicos time-based 2fa are amazing, specialized proprietary 2fa that either requires an internet connection or uses a different algorthm, is just no
2020-10-27 19:32:22 ericonr yeah
2020-10-27 19:32:28 admicos and sms 2fa shouldn't be mentioned at all it's that bad
2020-10-27 19:32:29 thefunkyspaw Vanguard will let you switch to Yubikey, but if you lose your Yubikey they will let you recover your account with.... SMS messages. Its insane.
2020-10-27 19:32:33 ericonr SMS 2FA is just "doors wide open"
2020-10-27 19:32:40 thefunkyspaw Right?
2020-10-27 19:32:50 ericonr thefunkyspaw: yubikeys are also good against phishing
2020-10-27 19:32:54 ericonr like
2020-10-27 19:32:59 thefunkyspaw Oh, but then it isn't even 2FA, because you can also recover your password with your damn phone number
2020-10-27 19:33:09 ericonr using it as your main form of authentication gives more protection than only the 2FA side of it
2020-10-27 19:33:28 ericonr since phishing attacks _are_ more common than shady hackers
2020-10-27 19:34:01 acdw boringcactus: I love the 'can't actually make calls but is okay otherwise'
2020-10-27 19:34:06 ew0k my websites redirect to https, though. I just wish OSs and browsers would update to be able to use the latest crypto
2020-10-27 19:34:16 ericonr :c
2020-10-27 19:34:19 ericonr not everyone can
2020-10-27 19:34:20 xfnw hmm
2020-10-27 19:34:25 admicos pmos can make calls, on like 2 devices
2020-10-27 19:34:30 admicos which you probably don't have
2020-10-27 19:34:41 admicos afaik, anyway
2020-10-27 19:34:53 boringcactus it's extremely funny how https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Devices says there are only two fully working devices
2020-10-27 19:34:57 boringcactus and they're both just QEMU
2020-10-27 19:38:54 acdw oh jeez
2020-10-27 19:42:16 aravk welp
2020-10-27 19:43:02 jcowan A lot of 2FA is "one thing you know, and another thing you know". That is 1FA.
2020-10-27 19:43:32 CommunistWolf eh, the pinephone camera does work, it's just not very good
2020-10-27 19:44:00 jcowan Those credit-card-sized RSA doohickeys were the closest. You didn't need them much, so you weren't likely to lose them, and they were milspec-strong and highly resistant to "physical cryptanalysis".
2020-10-27 19:46:00 thefunkyspaw I am watching a pine phone manjaro community edition review. It looks barely usable.
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2020-10-27 20:02:38 CommunistWolf good, no?
2020-10-27 20:02:47 CommunistWolf I run mobian on mine
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2020-10-27 20:46:17 ew0k What's the preferred way of POSTing stuff to gemini servers? sftp?
2020-10-27 20:46:47 ew0k Because the protocol doesn't support any way of doing it from a site (no form, etc)
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2020-10-27 20:52:25 acdw ye, no POST in gemini protocol
2020-10-27 20:52:38 acdw some servers use sftp, like gemini.circumlunar.space
2020-10-27 20:52:43 acdw some use plain ssh
2020-10-27 20:52:52 acdw gemlog.blue has a php interface
2020-10-27 20:52:55 acdw with a web from
2020-10-27 20:52:57 acdw form
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2020-10-27 23:12:58 jcowan I've been thinking about how to implement a very simple flask-like Dioscuri framework in Python.
2020-10-27 23:13:33 jcowan and also about a gemifinger protocol; you run a daemon on your box that reports to a specialized gemini server what you are up to, and then anyone can see it by accessing the server
2020-10-27 23:19:53 kevinsan what's the specific specialization?
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2020-10-28 00:56:35 zephryn ew0k: i'd just say that it's best to use whatever method suits what you're planning to host, there isn't much of an established or preferred method for POSTing content
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2020-10-28 07:08:05 ew0k jcowan: I'm not well read up on webfinger. What's it usually used for? I only know that it's used in ActivityPub to find user profiles
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2020-10-28 10:01:10 ew0k ugh... I had an idea to make a gemini browser with a graphical interface, written in python with tkinter. GUI programming *sucks*
2020-10-28 10:01:20 ew0k sooooo much code just to align a few pixels
2020-10-28 10:01:36 ew0k HTML + CSS really rules in that regard
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2020-10-28 10:40:33 CoopDot I had an idea for a browser, where you can just scroll up through the page boundery to go Back in your browsing history. The scrolling between the pages would look like pages in a PDF-reader. I know how to do that in HTML+CSS+JS but I want to avoid that.
2020-10-28 10:44:56 ew0k CoopDot: I'm sort of there, too. Not that I was looking for that design, but in that I know how to build the GUI I want in HTML+CSS+JS
2020-10-28 10:45:42 ew0k Building GUIs for desktop looks easy at first, but then everything becomes extremely complicated once window resizing comes into it
2020-10-28 10:46:33 ew0k and it's usually simple to dictate sizes in pixels or chars, but not in relation to screen size or zoom settings or similar
2020-10-28 10:49:18 ew0k and in HTML+CSS+JS I can have modals, instead of pop-out windows...
2020-10-28 10:56:29 ew0k haha. Had a thought: "I *could* just fork chromium, and get rid of all the html stuff and replace it with gemini stuff instead." Looked at the chromium repo...
2020-10-28 11:11:34 CoopDot It looks like evince (written in C) is using css for styling, didn't know
2020-10-28 11:18:58 ew0k do you mean the pdf viewer?
2020-10-28 11:21:15 CoopDot Yes, the document viewer mainly used for PDF
2020-10-28 11:22:14 ew0k right
2020-10-28 11:24:59 CoopDot I didn't know it had support for comics
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2020-10-28 11:31:54 kiedtl does gemini support "tags" on urls? (sorry, not sure what they're called)
2020-10-28 11:32:11 kiedtl e.g. gemini://stuff.example.com/link.gmi#section
2020-10-28 11:32:24 djph kiedtl: afaik,no.
2020-10-28 11:32:56 ew0k kiedtl: they're called anchors in HTML, and no it doesn't
2020-10-28 11:33:55 djph I believe you can use them internal to the gemtext as URLs, but that might be wrong.
2020-10-28 11:34:50 ew0k I guess it would be up to the client to parse that out from the URL and use it as it sees fit; the server will serve the same document regardless
2020-10-28 11:35:38 djph yeah, maybe it's just a feature of av98. It's been a while since I've goofed around with writing for the capsule. Life has a tendency to get in the way
2020-10-28 11:36:17 ew0k it'd be a nice feature in a browser to just auto-create an anchor for each heading, but since it's not in the specification I guess you can't expect clients to remove the #anchor from the URL, and you may get garbage from the server if it doesn't understand it
2020-10-28 11:37:34 ew0k if the browser can't be expected to remove it, links containing anchors are likely to cause status 51 (not found).
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2020-10-28 11:54:23 jcowan ew0k: I don't knoq much about webfinger either, except that it is (as usual these days) VERY complicated.
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2020-10-28 11:55:28 ew0k jcowan: well if it was simple everyone would use it! XD
2020-10-28 11:56:23 jcowan I'm quite familiar with the original finger (designed for timesharing hosts) and a little bit with GNU finger (designed for environments where people use multiple interchangeable workstations). Neither of these is realistic today.
2020-10-28 11:57:51 ew0k I've had very little interaction with either of those. Can only remember that they were available on the workstations at uni... I don't remember what they were for
2020-10-28 11:58:41 @tomasino they're available on most tildes now
2020-10-28 11:59:17 @tomasino finger tomasino@cosmic.voyage
2020-10-28 11:59:22 @tomasino or finger ben@tilde.team
2020-10-28 12:00:16 @tomasino as for the url hashes, it was discussed in here before and on the ML a tiny bit. Some client authors were discussing how to use it for anchors to headings. There's apparently a few ways to do it since headers are free text
2020-10-28 12:00:39 @tomasino do you convert all non-A-z characters to nothing and condense the anchor? do you number them in order, etc
2020-10-28 12:00:56 @tomasino it is rather difficult to come up with a simple solution for humans to implement
2020-10-28 12:01:48 @tomasino as for an outline with links down, take a look at how kristall is doing that. I believe a couple other clients make an outline available as well. You can't link to it from an external page, but it's nice for navigating long form
2020-10-28 12:07:23 jcowan tomasino: Thanks. Looks like the finger server on cosmic.voyage has a bug: if you type "finger -l tomasino@cosmic.voyage" it should give you more information (or at least no less information), but in fact it gives you an error because it does not implement RFC 1288 correctly. Do you know who I should report that to?
2020-10-28 12:11:28 @tomasino efingerd
2020-10-28 12:11:40 @tomasino That's what we're all using
2020-10-28 12:21:15 @tomasino i see -l in the finger manpage, but i don't see anything about it in the RFC
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2020-10-28 13:18:28 jcowan It translates into /W at the beginning of the request line, which provokes an error
2020-10-28 13:19:11 @tomasino ahh, i did see the /W in the RFC
2020-10-28 13:19:25 @tomasino looks like efingerd is just reading that as a username or something
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2020-10-28 13:26:28 jcowan yes, and then complaining and saying "THIS INCIDENT HAS BEEN LOGGED" in a voice of doom.
2020-10-28 13:27:30 @tomasino hehe, that's me
2020-10-28 13:27:33 @tomasino not efingerd
2020-10-28 13:27:57 @tomasino https://tildegit.org/cosmic/cosmic/src/branch/master/efingerd
2020-10-28 13:28:09 @tomasino https://tildegit.org/cosmic/cosmic/src/branch/master/efingerd/nouser#L35-L39 - specifically
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2020-10-28 17:30:00 kiedtl Is there any plan to add support for nested lists? I'm currently converting some .txt pages to .gmi and the lack of nested unordered lists is beginning to drive me crazy.
2020-10-28 17:30:49 boringcactus i doubt it
2020-10-28 17:31:03 boringcactus you can always just use the syntax as though it exists
2020-10-28 17:33:41 kiedtl Yeah. I'll just pretend the support is there for now.
2020-10-28 17:42:39 ew0k kiedtl: I think the specification has just left a three-month freeze, so changes are once again possible. That said I hope the markup remains unchanged; I've pondered several changes myself but have come to the conclusion that any additions would add complexity, and the simplicity is what I love about it.
2020-10-28 17:42:54 ew0k kiedtl: If I needed nested lists I would use the ``` block
2020-10-28 17:46:21 kiedtl hmm, I never thought of using ``` blocks
2020-10-28 17:46:24 kiedtl I might just do that!
2020-10-28 17:50:10 ew0k 👍
2020-10-28 17:54:50 kiedtl
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2020-10-28 18:04:58 ew0k I started building something https://lounge.warmedal.se/uploads/5b73a5212ea4c929/image.png
2020-10-28 18:05:14 ew0k not sure if I'll finish it, but still educational
2020-10-28 18:05:42 acdw oooh
2020-10-28 18:05:45 acdw looks good so far
2020-10-28 18:05:50 felix Good luck!
2020-10-28 18:05:59 ew0k ty!
2020-10-28 18:06:22 ew0k I'm fiddling with the gui elements only for now. No logic whatsoever
2020-10-28 18:06:37 ew0k Gonna see what I can borrow from AV-98 when I get to that :)
2020-10-28 18:06:54 felix Will it have any special goals or features?
2020-10-28 18:08:49 ew0k not at first. I just want to have a graphical browser. The challenge is to package it and make it work on Windows and Raspbian desktop (is it called Pixel now?). I'm thinking that's a good way to show non-technical people what geminispace is
2020-10-28 18:09:02 acdw nice
2020-10-28 18:09:50 felix It's made in Python?
2020-10-28 18:09:59 ew0k but I mean... I haven't done desktop GUI programming since that intro java course back in 2009...
2020-10-28 18:10:02 ew0k yup!
2020-10-28 18:10:15 ew0k 50 lines so far
2020-10-28 18:10:23 felix :D
2020-10-28 18:10:44 felix Awesome! I used Python for a Gopher client. With Tkinter.
2020-10-28 18:10:55 ew0k that's what I'm doing!
2020-10-28 18:11:32 felix But I have a bit more experience with Tk and desktop apps. :P
2020-10-28 18:12:16 ew0k I honestly think it looks kinnda awful. All the elements are where I want them, but the look is so 1990's that it's really clashing against the rest of my Ubuntu desktop :P
2020-10-28 18:12:30 felix I've heard that said about Tk apps before.
2020-10-28 18:12:38 acdw 1990s tho
2020-10-28 18:12:41 acdw is where it at
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2020-10-28 18:12:54 felix For what it's worth, the new ttk-style widgets are native on Win/Mac.
2020-10-28 18:13:02 ew0k acdw: yeah, it *is* sort of the aesthetic I *should* be looking for :D
2020-10-28 18:13:06 acdw hehe
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2020-10-28 18:13:49 felix But for Linux, I'm tempted to rewrite some of my apps with PyGObject.
2020-10-28 18:13:56 ew0k But I would love it if I could make it look like a modern browser (FF, Chrome, Brave, Opera, whatever)
2020-10-28 18:14:19 felix You can come surprisingly close.
2020-10-28 18:15:23 ew0k yeah? By fiddling a lot with themes?
2020-10-28 18:16:30 ew0k You know what would be great? Being like uncanny-valley-close, but not 100% there
2020-10-28 18:16:34 ew0k :D
2020-10-28 18:17:57 ew0k Can I attach events to labels?
2020-10-28 18:18:10 felix Choice of icons and button spacing brought me a long way, even on Linux and with the default Tk theme.
2020-10-28 18:18:16 felix And sure you can!
2020-10-28 18:18:36 ew0k Because I could get a long way by designing modern-looking button-like labels and make them clickable
2020-10-28 18:18:41 ew0k awesome!
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2020-10-28 18:18:52 ℹ jan6-5bata1 is now known as Dr-WaSabi
2020-10-28 18:19:37 felix I really recommend looking at ttk widgets though, and using styles.
2020-10-28 18:20:22 ew0k I'm using ttk widgets :) Haven't fiddled with styles yet
2020-10-28 18:20:40 ew0k I think the right path forward is to make it work first, and then bling it up :D
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2020-10-28 18:21:22 ew0k ... and then figure out how to make a .deb package and a windows executable from it...
2020-10-28 18:22:19 felix For Windows you have a bunch of different solutions.
2020-10-28 18:22:34 felix For Linux, something in setuptools, I think?
2020-10-28 18:23:18 boringcactus oh packaging a python program into a windows exe is
2020-10-28 18:23:24 boringcactus unpleasant
2020-10-28 18:23:42 boringcactus or at least it was like a year and a bit ago when i had to deal with it
2020-10-28 18:26:16 ew0k boringcactus: ... I'll leave that one on the "maybe" list then....
2020-10-28 18:26:17 ew0k :D
2020-10-28 18:26:26 boringcactus lmao
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2020-10-28 18:55:51 boringcactus oh ttk is neat, didn't know about that
2020-10-28 18:58:20 felix It's not the Tk of my youth anymore.
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2020-10-28 20:57:33 kiedtl quick question: do people ususally put copyright notices/site logo/art on every page in a capsule, or only on the index page?
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2020-10-28 21:23:05 @tomasino on gemini i'd probably put it on the homepage
2020-10-28 21:23:16 @tomasino or link it from the homepage
2020-10-28 21:23:36 @tomasino => copyright.txt Copyright and other legal poop
2020-10-28 21:24:13 xfnw lol
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2020-10-28 22:15:17 acdw anybody here use phoebe
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2020-10-28 22:31:56 @tomasino the lady from friends?
2020-10-28 22:40:33 acdw kensanata's gemini wiki
2020-10-28 22:40:53 acdw https://alexschroeder.ch/cgit/phoebe/tree/phoebe
2020-10-28 22:41:28 acdw i'm trying to get it running but for some reason when i wrote a systemd unit file it says it can't find the "file" of port 1965
2020-10-28 22:41:31 acdw i do NOT know perl
2020-10-28 22:51:42 kiedtl eww perl
2020-10-28 22:52:06 zephryn interesting language choice
2020-10-28 22:52:48 acdw ye
2020-10-28 22:53:05 acdw i'm thinking about not using it
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2020-10-28 22:54:14 acdw i want a server that i can also post to... wlel "post"
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2020-10-28 22:54:21 acdw phoebe uses titan://
2020-10-28 22:54:28 acdw i might juts do molly-brown and a php script
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2020-10-28 23:43:58 ew0k What’s this titan protocol?
2020-10-28 23:44:21 @tomasino kensanata's companion protocol to gemini to handle writing content for wikis
2020-10-28 23:45:14 ew0k Where can I read more about it? :)
2020-10-28 23:48:07 acdw https://transjovian.org:1965/page/Titan
2020-10-28 23:48:12 acdw or gemini://transjovian.org/page/Titan
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2020-10-29 00:01:49 ew0k That was an interesting read
2020-10-29 00:02:52 ew0k I dislike the lack of POST in gemini, but I also don’t want to add it (because it really does complicate things). Having a sister protocol for it could be a viable solution
2020-10-29 00:11:01 acdw that was my thinking!
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2020-10-29 00:28:13 zephryn i definitely think having a separate protocol for it is a good idea
2020-10-29 00:29:07 ericonr I don't think gemini could even be comfortably extended for POST support...
2020-10-29 00:29:51 ericonr do servers usually implement ALPN? would be neat to have it for gemini, even if just for fun
2020-10-29 00:30:19 epoch could put post data into a temporary cert? XD
2020-10-29 00:30:55 epoch certs have the ability to store arbitrary structured data, right?
2020-10-29 00:30:57 zephryn haha
2020-10-29 00:30:59 ★ epoch double checks
2020-10-29 00:31:34 ericonr I think they do, but not all ssl libraries will let you access those :P
2020-10-29 00:31:46 epoch then the ssl libraries need to be fixed ;)
2020-10-29 00:31:49 ericonr might have issues with maximum size as well
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2020-10-29 00:32:22 ericonr well, with a simple library you want to tell it to look at <certs_path> and "do connection"
2020-10-29 00:32:41 ericonr it doesn't really need functionality to extract arbitrary fields from certificate
2020-10-29 00:32:44 ericonr s
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2020-10-29 00:33:57 epoch so, either use a library that does that, or add support for a new protocol?
2020-10-29 00:34:00 acdw what's alpn
2020-10-29 00:34:06 acdw epoch that's so cursed i love it
2020-10-29 00:34:40 ericonr acdw: SSL extension that allows you to negotiate the protocol (http 1.0, 1.1, 2.0, ...) during the handshake
2020-10-29 00:35:01 acdw oh nice
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2020-10-29 00:36:27 ericonr supporting it on gemini is not really necessary, since port 1965 is likely unoccupied and not going to be used for anything else, but it's still a nice to have little addition
2020-10-29 00:37:25 epoch https://www.iana.org/assignments/service-names-port-numbers/service-names-port-numbers.xhtml?search=1965
2020-10-29 00:38:32 ericonr https://www.npmjs.com/package/tivoli I don't think one should be using a 4y old server :P
2020-10-29 00:39:07 epoch tell that to people using Windows Server 2008
2020-10-29 00:39:23 zephryn might be tivoli netview performance monitor?
2020-10-29 00:39:32 ericonr zephryn: indeed
2020-10-29 00:39:32 epoch that's my bet. I'm looking into it atm.
2020-10-29 00:39:38 ericonr I might have been mislead in my search
2020-10-29 00:42:43 epoch the contact email address on the iana page (@tivoli.com) has an MX record to some computer security company
2020-10-29 00:42:50 acdw hmmmmm
2020-10-29 00:42:53 epoch looks like they're harvesting emails directed to other people
2020-10-29 00:43:02 acdw pretty sus
2020-10-29 00:43:28 epoch original registration by... IBM? probably ran out in the last 3 years
2020-10-29 00:44:19 ericonr oof
2020-10-29 00:45:02 @tomasino sus
2020-10-29 00:45:19 zephryn yeah tivoli seems to be an ibm thing
2020-10-29 00:46:13 epoch $ whob $(dig $(dig -t MX tivoli.com +short) +short)
2020-10-29 00:46:15 epoch Org-Name: Proofpoint, Inc
2020-10-29 00:46:52 epoch you can see an ownership history of the domain using https://whoisrequest.com/history/
2020-10-29 00:47:06 epoch looks like IBM got it in 2003
2020-10-29 00:47:27 epoch 2013 akam.net which I guess is akamai?
2020-10-29 00:48:37 epoch akam.net doesn't resolve to anything either
2020-10-29 00:48:48 epoch no MX
2020-10-29 00:49:09 epoch lol.
2020-10-29 00:49:12 epoch the TXT record
2020-10-29 00:49:26 epoch akam.net. 90000 IN TXT "This" "is" "not" "the" "nameserver" "you" "are" "looking" "for."
2020-10-29 00:50:49 zephryn hahaha
2020-10-29 00:51:37 epoch yeah, the IPs for the NS for akam.net are all owned by akamai
2020-10-29 00:51:43 acdw you've stumbled onto some dark corener of the internet
2020-10-29 00:51:48 acdw say hi to the FBI
2020-10-29 00:58:41 epoch kk
2020-10-29 00:59:12 acdw :P
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2020-10-29 01:32:10 kiedtl anyone know of a gemini server that works on openbsd? I'm asking for a friend who said he tried drew's server (only it wouldn't compile)
2020-10-29 01:32:47 ericonr anything Go should work, I think
2020-10-29 01:33:22 ericonr what errors did he get with devault's? Assuming it's C, I could take a look
2020-10-29 01:33:44 @tomasino Jetforce works
2020-10-29 01:33:52 @tomasino I ran it on black
2020-10-29 01:34:33 kiedtl hmm
2020-10-29 01:34:43 kiedtl I'm working on getting some logs of the failed build, lol, let's see
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2020-10-29 04:32:29 lowkey is this the main gemini IRC channel?
2020-10-29 04:32:34 lowkey i thought it would be on freenode
2020-10-29 04:47:13 isvarahparamahkrsnah yes
2020-10-29 04:47:26 isvarahparamahkrsnah this is the home of the gemini
2020-10-29 04:47:45 isvarahparamahkrsnah why was gemini named gemini and not aries?
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2020-10-29 06:16:45 ew0k isvarahparamahkrsnah: I don’t know what the name Aries would be from. Was that also a space project?
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2020-10-29 07:45:48 ew0k I've been thinking about caching
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2020-10-29 07:48:51 ew0k more specifically, I've been thinking that local caching of content can be possible without extending the protocol. I would propose that a server that supports it makes an endpoint "/.updated" available for queries. Let's say my client fetches gemini://foo.bar/very-large-file.jpg once, and is later asked by the user to fetch it again. It keeps a
2020-10-29 07:48:51 ew0k local copy, but how will it know if it's up to date? By querying gemini://foo.bar/.updated?/very-large-file.jpg
2020-10-29 07:50:01 ew0k The server will either reply with a 51 (if it doesn't support this), or a "20 <UNIX timestamp>" where the timestamp is the time that file was last modified
2020-10-29 07:51:05 ew0k But. The specification says this about status code 20: "The request was handled successfully and a response body *will* follow the response header." (my emphasis)
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2020-10-29 09:32:28 nixo ew0k: also, instead of the timestamp it would be better to use some hash. 1. A file might be updated faster than the timestamp resolution (file updated, client does not detect changes) and 2. A file might be changed twice, going back to the cached version (the client download the same file twice even if the time changed)
2020-10-29 09:36:52 ew0k nixo: yes! That's really good!
2020-10-29 09:36:59 ew0k sha256 or something
2020-10-29 09:37:42 ew0k would clients handle a 20 response code without a body, though?
2020-10-29 09:38:00 ew0k to me it doesn't sound like that's allowed according to the spec
2020-10-29 09:38:15 ew0k but I don't see a need for a message body for this
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2020-10-29 10:50:54 aravk why not use "20 <special mime type for sha256 hash>" followed by the hash
2020-10-29 10:52:30 aravk say "20 text/x-sha256" (I'm not too familiar with the conventions for unofficial MIME types)
2020-10-29 10:53:14 aravk that way all gemini clients should deal with it fine (assuming they can work with unrecognized mime types)
2020-10-29 10:53:57 aravk ew0k: this is a pretty good idea you've got here
2020-10-29 10:54:05 ew0k aravk: wouldn’t they still expect a body?
2020-10-29 10:54:10 aravk yep, the body is the hash
2020-10-29 10:54:26 ew0k Oh!
2020-10-29 10:54:35 aravk sorry, wasn't clear
2020-10-29 10:54:54 ew0k I mean... the hash is just a text string :D
2020-10-29 10:54:57 aravk exactly
2020-10-29 10:55:12 ew0k that’s a mime type all clients can handle
2020-10-29 10:55:14 aravk but it would be neat then if you could have different MIME types for different hashes
2020-10-29 10:55:34 aravk e.g. text/x-sha256, text/x-sha512, etc.
2020-10-29 10:55:45 ew0k That’s smart!
2020-10-29 10:55:52 aravk plus it's not supposed to be a normal text file
2020-10-29 10:55:58 ew0k makes it a bit more futureproof too
2020-10-29 10:56:02 aravk it's a special purpose response and so we give it a better MIME type
2020-10-29 10:56:39 aravk you should put this on the mailing list, ew0k
2020-10-29 10:56:47 aravk get some more long-form discussion
2020-10-29 11:01:26 ew0k Will do! I joined the list last night :)
2020-10-29 11:01:57 aravk also specify that if the request gets a 'not found' or any similar error, or if the returned MIME type is unrecognized, then the client should ignore it and still grab a fresh copy
2020-10-29 11:02:04 aravk oh, also we can include content-length!
2020-10-29 11:02:19 aravk format would be '<hash type> <hash> <content-length in bytes>'
2020-10-29 11:02:38 aravk mime type would be 'text/x-content-info' or whatever
2020-10-29 11:02:54 aravk although these should be two different proposals
2020-10-29 11:03:35 aravk has anyone thought of encoding the content-length as a MIME type parameter in the response?
2020-10-29 11:04:12 aravk also, if the URL to check upon also was fed input, that input will have to be encoded in the .content? request
2020-10-29 11:15:00 ew0k Is the lack of content length a big issue?
2020-10-29 11:15:57 ew0k I think embedding content length in the <META> field sounds like a better idea than making a separate request to find out
2020-10-29 11:17:17 aravk yeah, I'm writing to the mailing list detailing both
2020-10-29 11:17:28 aravk but I'm in favor of the MIME type encoding
2020-10-29 11:34:02 aravk hey ew0k I'm mentioning you in the mail (giving an endpoint proposal), should I just refer to you as ~ew0k or what
2020-10-29 11:40:47 ew0k I was about to say "call me whatever you like" but I guess that could be confusing all around :D I'm bjorn.warmedal@gmail.com on the list, and usually go by BW
2020-10-29 11:41:19 ew0k not member of a tildeverse community, so ~ew0k could be misleading :)
2020-10-29 12:17:44 aravk welp, used the wrong e-mail, so now it's pending mod approval
2020-10-29 12:18:07 alex11 is bombadillo a decent client? seems to be both gemini and gopher
2020-10-29 12:39:46 ew0k https://lounge.warmedal.se/uploads/365fadf913430599/image.png <-- making progress!
2020-10-29 12:40:01 ew0k I hate GUI programming
2020-10-29 12:40:04 ew0k XD
2020-10-29 12:41:23 nihilazo same
2020-10-29 12:42:05 alex11 you're making that? it looks nice
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2020-10-29 12:55:03 ew0k alex11: ty
2020-10-29 12:56:13 ew0k I need to write a class that inherits from another class. How do I declare the __init__ method when I don't know (nor care) which or how many parameters it takes? I just need to pass them along to the parent constructor anyway
2020-10-29 12:56:25 ew0k (it's python3)
2020-10-29 13:01:35 ew0k Hah! Figured it out!
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2020-10-29 13:57:35 ericonr ew0k: *args and **kwargs, isn't it?
2020-10-29 13:57:58 ericonr i think one can hack around with those
2020-10-29 14:01:16 ew0k yeah, it was *args in this case
2020-10-29 14:01:25 ew0k https://notabug.org/tinyrabbit/astronaut-gemini-browser <-- the code, so far
2020-10-29 14:02:08 aravk truly the work of a tiny rabbit
2020-10-29 14:02:54 ew0k very much so!
2020-10-29 14:03:46 ew0k I have a habit that I've had since early teenage years, without really having a rationale behind it: whenever I enter a new online space or community I pick a random new handle/nick
2020-10-29 14:03:56 aravk not a bad habit
2020-10-29 14:04:10 ew0k maybe not :shrugs:
2020-10-29 14:04:28 ★ aravk shrugs back
2020-10-29 14:06:03 ew0k so I'm tinyrabbit in the fediverse, for now. And ew0k here. And I have different nicks on all the other IRC networks I'm on, and discord servers, and online writing groups (not part of any right now though), etc
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2020-10-29 14:35:30 felix Whatever works for you. Identity is complicated and personal.
2020-10-29 14:35:37 felix Online, it's also a thorny issue.
2020-10-29 14:41:46 ew0k yeah... I'm not one who cares much, though. It's not hard to find my real name, or my address for that matter.
2020-10-29 14:41:56 ew0k they're even on my website.
2020-10-29 14:42:01 ew0k it's just a habit :)
2020-10-29 14:44:40 ew0k Haha, apparently I even have my real name in my gitconfig, so all commits made as tinyrabbit have my name on them :D
2020-10-29 14:45:44 felix Heh. Oh well.
2020-10-29 15:02:51 ew0k Without a POST method the content producers of geminispace will almost exclusively be techies with a terminal. I can’t decide whether that’s a feature or a bug
2020-10-29 15:04:56 felix Unless you have a web interface. ;)
2020-10-29 15:08:05 CoopDot If you send to the ML with the wrong email address, delete it on the web interface and send it again with the right one. (Or wait a Long time)
2020-10-29 15:11:52 aravk CoopDot: unfortunately stupid aerc died before saving the sent mail to my sent folder, so I couldn't even resend it
2020-10-29 15:15:12 CoopDot I guess you have to wait then :/
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2020-10-29 15:23:21 felix \o
2020-10-29 15:23:54 CoopDot o/
2020-10-29 15:27:42 acdw \o
2020-10-29 15:34:49 felix So there's an initiative to put public domain books on Gemini?
2020-10-29 15:36:43 acdw eys? there are a few of them
2020-10-29 15:36:51 acdw *books, not initialtivs
2020-10-29 15:36:54 acdw might be initiatives too
2020-10-29 15:40:32 felix That booksin.space thing.
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2020-10-29 15:45:16 acdw Im getting a proxy error
2020-10-29 15:46:24 acdw there's also gemini://tanelorn.city/library/index.gemini
2020-10-29 15:46:35 acdw and gemini://libraryoferis.org/
2020-10-29 15:48:41 felix I see!
2020-10-29 15:49:38 nihilazo I should get my gemini site back up
2020-10-29 15:53:46 acdw yeah you should! :)
2020-10-29 15:54:07 nihilazo might stick it on breadpunk now I'm there too
2020-10-29 15:54:48 ~tiwesdaeg uh ohg
2020-10-29 15:55:10 ~tiwesdaeg I'll check on the library
2020-10-29 15:56:36 acdw aw yea!
2020-10-29 16:01:59 acdw yall my gemlog.blue has 99 posts
2020-10-29 16:02:02 acdw i'm almost to 100
2020-10-29 16:03:23 ~tiwesdaeg ok, looks like it's back up
2020-10-29 16:03:34 ~tiwesdaeg I've been meaning to move it over to molly-brown
2020-10-29 16:03:44 ~tiwesdaeg I've had stability issues with gemserv
2020-10-29 16:04:54 ★ acdw checks it out
2020-10-29 16:05:05 felix That's a lot of posts!
2020-10-29 16:05:20 acdw :D right!?
2020-10-29 16:05:25 acdw i'm pretty chuffed about it
2020-10-29 16:05:39 acdw tiwesdaeg: still getting the error in kristall, lemme try portal.mozz
2020-10-29 16:05:55 ~tiwesdaeg it worked on bombadillo
2020-10-29 16:05:55 acdw same error, 53
2020-10-29 16:06:06 acdw gemini://booksin.space/ ?
2020-10-29 16:06:25 ~tiwesdaeg eh?
2020-10-29 16:06:40 acdw oh wait, what were you talking about
2020-10-29 16:06:50 ~tiwesdaeg libraryoferis.org
2020-10-29 16:07:06 ~tiwesdaeg ohhhh
2020-10-29 16:07:08 ~tiwesdaeg I get it
2020-10-29 16:07:19 ~tiwesdaeg there were multiple things going on in that conversation
2020-10-29 16:07:24 ~tiwesdaeg I didn't read up
2020-10-29 16:08:55 ew0k felix: of course I can have a web interface :) or use titan://
2020-10-29 16:08:56 acdw oh lol no worries
2020-10-29 16:09:30 acdw yeah library of eris is going good :)
2020-10-29 16:09:33 ew0k I really do think that forms and POST would complicate gemini a lot
2020-10-29 16:09:44 acdw yes absolutely
2020-10-29 16:09:47 acdw post--
2020-10-29 16:10:47 ew0k You could easily build a microblogging site that uses query strings. I feel like that’s going to happen
2020-10-29 16:11:14 acdw ooh that sounds dope
2020-10-29 16:11:43 acdw auth with client cert? or secret word?
2020-10-29 16:11:55 ew0k Either or, I guess
2020-10-29 16:12:02 acdw hey acutally question --- with TLS, are URLs sent in the clear? or are they encrypted?
2020-10-29 16:12:27 acdw like if I send gemini://gus.guru/search?super-secret-search, can third parties see that URL?
2020-10-29 16:12:30 acdw or just gus.guru?
2020-10-29 16:12:37 xfnw just gus.guru
2020-10-29 16:12:40 acdw nice
2020-10-29 16:12:56 acdw so yeah, a secret word would be easier to implement
2020-10-29 16:12:58 ew0k the subdomain.domain.tld can be seen, since you’re querying DNS servers with it
2020-10-29 16:13:16 ew0k but the path and query string are sent after tls handshake
2020-10-29 16:13:19 acdw right, that makes sense -- but then you open the TLS connection and it all goes thru there
2020-10-29 16:13:21 acdw yepype
2020-10-29 16:13:22 acdw thanks :)
2020-10-29 16:15:33 ew0k I have a question: if a client sends foo.bar/baz and the server replies ”10 username:”, what does the following query from the client look like then?
2020-10-29 16:16:53 acdw should be foo.bar/baz?<username>
2020-10-29 16:17:03 acdw where <username> is the client supplied string
2020-10-29 16:17:04 ew0k If the user enters ”dude”, will the following call be foo.bar/baz?dude or foo.bar/baz?username:dude...?
2020-10-29 16:17:06 acdw s/client/user
2020-10-29 16:17:28 acdw the first one ew0k
2020-10-29 16:17:57 ew0k so if the client sends foo.bar/baz?dude can the server then reply ”11 password:” ?
2020-10-29 16:18:16 acdw oh shit, i guess so?
2020-10-29 16:18:23 acdw but the query would be replaced then
2020-10-29 16:18:29 acdw you're thinking a flow like
2020-10-29 16:18:42 acdw C: gemini://foo.bar/baz
2020-10-29 16:18:47 acdw S: 10 username
2020-10-29 16:18:59 acdw C: gemini://foo.bar/baz?larry
2020-10-29 16:19:03 acdw S: 11 password
2020-10-29 16:19:07 ew0k Replaced or appended? It wouldn’t be foo.bar/baz?dude?pword ?
2020-10-29 16:19:12 acdw C: gemini://foo.bar/baz?password
2020-10-29 16:19:24 acdw and the server would save both, then log the user in
2020-10-29 16:19:25 acdw ohhh nice
2020-10-29 16:19:41 acdw ew0k: the URL spec says that there can only be one query in the URL
2020-10-29 16:19:53 ew0k Ah!
2020-10-29 16:19:55 acdw that's why GET requests stack them with &
2020-10-29 16:20:12 acdw like example.com?user=bill&password=secret
2020-10-29 16:20:29 acdw you *could* do a 10 login
2020-10-29 16:20:35 acdw oops, sorry login
2020-10-29 16:20:50 ew0k well, if foo.bar/baz requires a cert the flow could work
2020-10-29 16:21:02 acdw you *could* ask the user to format the string, like user=bill;pass=secret
2020-10-29 16:21:13 ew0k yeah, ”10 username:password” could work
2020-10-29 16:21:15 acdw what do you mean?
2020-10-29 16:21:19 acdw the cert thing?
2020-10-29 16:21:45 ew0k hold on... I need to type this from my computer instead :D
2020-10-29 16:24:46 acdw haha
2020-10-29 16:26:36 ew0k C: foo.bar/login
2020-10-29 16:26:36 ew0k S: 60
2020-10-29 16:26:36 ew0k C: foo.bar/login (with cert A)
2020-10-29 16:26:36 ew0k S: stores cert A, sends "10 username:"
2020-10-29 16:26:36 ew0k C: foo.bar/login?larry
2020-10-29 16:26:36 ew0k S: connects username to cert A, sends "11 password:"
2020-10-29 16:26:36 ew0k C: foo.bar/login?s3cret
2020-10-29 16:26:36 ew0k S: 20 ...
2020-10-29 16:26:44 ew0k sorry for the spam :)
2020-10-29 16:27:44 ew0k it's a bit of a dance, but after that the server can ḱeep cert A as one of a number of "active" logins for that user.
2020-10-29 16:28:19 acdw OH
2020-10-29 16:28:20 acdw smart
2020-10-29 16:28:36 acdw so you'd only do that on first use of the client cert?
2020-10-29 16:28:45 ew0k yeah, exactly
2020-10-29 16:28:48 acdw very nice
2020-10-29 16:29:01 acdw you could even have an email flow, all 2fa style
2020-10-29 16:29:10 ew0k deffo
2020-10-29 16:29:19 acdw like, "This is the first time we've seen this cert, input your email for a code"
2020-10-29 16:29:21 acdw vvv nice
2020-10-29 16:29:24 acdw i'm loving this
2020-10-29 16:31:36 ew0k but, this may complicate it a little: "E.g. if a request for gemini://example.com/foo returns status 60 and the user chooses to generate a new client certificate in response to this, that same certificate should be used for subsequent requests to gemini://example.com/foo, gemini://example.com/foo/bar/, gemini://example.com/foo/bar/baz,"
2020-10-29 16:31:53 acdw how so?
2020-10-29 16:32:53 ew0k in my example the client is likely to only use the cert on calls to foo.bar/login, foo.bar/login/stuff, etc. If the server operator wants the cert to be used from foo.bar/ and downwards then foo.bar/ *must* require a login
2020-10-29 16:33:40 ew0k of course, if you want to allow logged-out users you have two options that I see
2020-10-29 16:34:02 acdw ah .. tho i think it makes sense to have a landing page on / that's world-readable
2020-10-29 16:34:17 acdw and have everything user-centric behind /user or /login
2020-10-29 16:34:36 ew0k 1) foo.bar/ always returns 60, so it always demands a client certificate. But the login link points to foo.bar/?login, which initiates the dance
2020-10-29 16:35:30 ew0k 2) foo.bar/ doesn't demand a client cert. You have a login link that points to foo.bar/?login, and that starts by returning 60 if the client is not using a cert
2020-10-29 16:36:27 acdw 1) i think is wrong -- there'd be no link if the server returns 60 on foo.bar/
2020-10-29 16:36:32 ew0k that would mean foo.bar for the anonymous user could return "Hello! This is us!", but the logged in user can get "Hey, Larry! Welcome back!"
2020-10-29 16:37:00 ew0k not until the client presents a certificate
2020-10-29 16:37:07 acdw with 2), the link would point to foo.bar/login
2020-10-29 16:37:32 acdw oh i think i understand?
2020-10-29 16:37:35 ew0k but the client could generate a short-lived certificate if so inclined
2020-10-29 16:37:39 acdw 2) is def beter in my opinion
2020-10-29 16:38:17 rb100 has quit (quit: leaving)
2020-10-29 16:38:49 ew0k the link *should* be able to point to foo.bar/?login, since foo.bar/ would present a default page (usually index.gmi), but not necessarily redirect the user to foo.bar/index.gmi -- this is common on the web already
2020-10-29 16:39:42 acdw hm, yeah it could, but i think foo.bar/index.gmi being the landing page and having a /login link would be better
2020-10-29 16:39:53 acdw then the /login would ask for a cert, then user, pass, etc
2020-10-29 16:39:58 acdw my 2c
2020-10-29 16:40:08 ew0k it would definitely look and feel cleaner.
2020-10-29 16:41:14 acdw ye
2020-10-29 16:43:39 ▬▬▶ ffuentes has joined #gemini
2020-10-29 16:43:40 ffuentes lmao
2020-10-29 16:44:02 ew0k ffuentes: share the fun!
2020-10-29 16:44:03 ew0k :D
2020-10-29 16:48:25 ew0k can a TLS client cert be used as or converted to an openssl public key?
2020-10-29 16:48:39 ew0k (jumping topics completely now :D )
2020-10-29 16:48:45 acdw i have no idea lol
2020-10-29 16:49:04 ★ jan6 wonders what the most minimal gemini getter would be, lol
2020-10-29 16:50:13 acdw printf '%s\r\n' "gemini://example.com/" | openssl s_client -quiet -ign_eof -server example.com -connect example.com:1965
2020-10-29 16:50:23 acdw ^ that
2020-10-29 16:50:32 jan6 sux gnutls-cli is very much intended for debug only, no way to get rid of extra fluff making it an unusable, and curl also ALMOST works, but tries to also send Accept: */* and some other header
2020-10-29 16:50:36 jan6 that much I know, lol
2020-10-29 16:51:01 acdw jan6: self-plug here, but have you seen bollux? I wrote it around the line I just sent
2020-10-29 16:51:22 jan6 have YOU seen my gemini-get tho? ;P
2020-10-29 16:51:29 acdw haha nope
2020-10-29 16:51:31 acdw lemme see it
2020-10-29 16:51:34 jan6 openssl s_client AND socat versions ;P
2020-10-29 16:51:41 acdw ooohhhh
2020-10-29 16:51:49 ericonr openssl is bloat </rant>
2020-10-29 16:51:54 acdw lol
2020-10-29 16:52:01 acdw you could bearssl it or whatev
2020-10-29 16:52:11 ericonr that's the one my getter uses :P
2020-10-29 16:52:19 ericonr but bearssl tries to protect you too hard
2020-10-29 16:52:24 ericonr so TOFU over it is kinda meh
2020-10-29 16:52:24 jan6 yes
2020-10-29 16:52:30 jan6 TLS1.3 tho
2020-10-29 16:52:38 acdw ah
2020-10-29 16:52:44 ericonr jan6: it's in progress, I think
2020-10-29 16:52:49 ericonr for bearssl, I mean
2020-10-29 16:52:54 acdw jan6: oh yeah, add --no_tls1 etc to the openssl command line
2020-10-29 16:53:31 jan6 https://tildegit.org/jan6/geminish
2020-10-29 16:53:48 jan6 I'm just doing openssl s_client -connect "$domain":1965 -quiet -verify_quiet
2020-10-29 16:54:06 ericonr ew0k: a client cert has a public key, doesn't it?
2020-10-29 16:54:15 ericonr should be a matter of extracting it from the cert
2020-10-29 16:54:53 acdw nice jan6! fyi read has a -p option
2020-10-29 16:55:06 acdw look at openssl x509 ericonr
2020-10-29 16:55:52 jan6 read does NOT have -p
2020-10-29 16:56:01 jan6 gnu-isms and bash-isms don't count ;P
2020-10-29 16:56:06 jan6 pure posix only
2020-10-29 16:56:06 acdw oh lol
2020-10-29 16:56:08 acdw sry
2020-10-29 16:56:14 jan6 lol
2020-10-29 16:56:45 acdw haha
2020-10-29 16:56:51 ew0k ericonr: the client cert *is* the public half of a key pair, iirc
2020-10-29 16:57:03 acdw i gave up on posix sh for bollux b/c of openssl
2020-10-29 16:57:10 ericonr ew0k: then you should be able to extract it
2020-10-29 16:57:14 acdw i figured, it has this requirement, bash is fine
2020-10-29 16:57:16 ew0k the question is if it has a format that can be used by openssh somehow
2020-10-29 16:57:17 ericonr see the command acdw suggested
2020-10-29 16:57:31 ericonr ew0k: ooh
2020-10-29 16:57:32 acdw also i got to use bash's arrays and regex capabilities to have it in *almost* pure bash
2020-10-29 16:57:41 ericonr I would bet on PEM export probably working
2020-10-29 16:57:47 ericonr PEM is kinda neat
2020-10-29 16:57:51 jan6 lol
2020-10-29 16:57:52 ew0k yeah, could work
2020-10-29 16:57:59 ericonr terrible
2020-10-29 16:58:00 ericonr but neat
2020-10-29 16:58:12 ew0k better than java keytool
2020-10-29 16:58:12 acdw PEM?
2020-10-29 16:58:40 ew0k acdw: a common certificate format
2020-10-29 16:58:55 ew0k the two most common ones are PEM and x509
2020-10-29 16:59:00 ★ jan6 knows zero C or D, but is wondering about trying to make a gemini fetcher "client" in D just for the sake of being able to request addition to wikis and add another language to the mix, lol
2020-10-29 16:59:05 ew0k .pem and .crt respectively
2020-10-29 16:59:13 acdw ah
2020-10-29 16:59:20 acdw do it jan6
2020-10-29 16:59:21 ericonr ew0k: PEM is encoding :P
2020-10-29 16:59:25 jan6 I think PEM is also how stuff like gpg and ssh keys are usually shared
2020-10-29 16:59:25 ericonr not certificate format
2020-10-29 16:59:26 acdw do one in brainfuck :)
2020-10-29 16:59:32 ericonr you can encode anything in PEM
2020-10-29 16:59:37 acdw huh, til
2020-10-29 16:59:37 ew0k ericonr: I stand corrected :)
2020-10-29 16:59:40 jan6 brainfuck doesn't do TLS, acdw ;P
2020-10-29 16:59:44 ericonr even a PEM file, for infinite recursion
2020-10-29 16:59:48 jan6 even tho there are variants with networking
2020-10-29 17:00:01 acdw jan6: looks like you need to write a TLS client in brainfuck then too
2020-10-29 17:00:06 jan6 lol noooo
2020-10-29 17:00:21 jan6 I can't even figure out how to use already existing TLS libraries in C/D/etc
2020-10-29 17:00:21 jan6 lol
2020-10-29 17:01:00 ericonr jan6: if you want any inspiration, shameless plug incoming: https://github.com/ericonr/purr-c
2020-10-29 17:01:01 jan6 stuff like wolfssl seems kinda cool, I even tried NSS, but no examples, or docs, that are good enough
2020-10-29 17:01:02 jan6 lol
2020-10-29 17:01:15 ericonr I'm using bearssl there
2020-10-29 17:01:27 jan6 iirc that only does TLS1.2
2020-10-29 17:01:32 ericonr indeed
2020-10-29 17:01:45 jan6 but also iirc that one I even got to work or such, way back when I tried it before
2020-10-29 17:01:46 jan6 lol
2020-10-29 17:01:49 ericonr but if you have a server that only accepts tls 1.3, your server kinda sucks :P
2020-10-29 17:02:05 ★ jan6 should set up a gemini server for no reason, lol
2020-10-29 17:02:21 acdw the reason is, you want to!
2020-10-29 17:02:22 acdw do it
2020-10-29 17:02:26 acdw it's fun
2020-10-29 17:02:40 jan6 no time
2020-10-29 17:02:41 jan6 lol
2020-10-29 17:02:45 jan6 also no content
2020-10-29 17:03:00 ew0k jan6: build a social network!
2020-10-29 17:03:02 ew0k :D
2020-10-29 17:03:05 jan6 just like I have a "web server" with like, 2 pages, total
2020-10-29 17:03:08 acdw do it do it
2020-10-29 17:03:09 ew0k microblogging platform!
2020-10-29 17:03:12 acdw heck ye
2020-10-29 17:03:12 ericonr acdw: I will start hosting when I get to writing my own
2020-10-29 17:03:16 jan6 twtxt already exists
2020-10-29 17:03:17 acdw nice!
2020-10-29 17:03:26 ew0k twtxt?
2020-10-29 17:03:28 jan6 yes
2020-10-29 17:03:32 jan6 twtxt is cool
2020-10-29 17:03:37 ericonr I should probably host that on a separate machine, tho
2020-10-29 17:03:39 acdw twtxt over gemini
2020-10-29 17:03:46 ericonr for security concerns
2020-10-29 17:03:58 acdw sure!
2020-10-29 17:05:06 jan6 https://github.com/buckket/twtxt, one central place is https://twtxt.envs.net/ I think there was another tildeverse one too
2020-10-29 17:05:44 jan6 basically all you do is host a txt file SOMEWHERE, in a specific format, and boom
2020-10-29 17:06:20 acdw yeah i gotta get on that
2020-10-29 17:06:59 jan6 usually http(s) but you can also do file:/// or whatnot protocol, it's not limited in the spec, only the official client is limited ;P
2020-10-29 17:07:11 acdw nice :)
2020-10-29 17:07:19 acdw i'd cohost it b/w gemini and http
2020-10-29 17:07:21 acdw maybe gopher, idk
2020-10-29 17:07:26 jan6 so a gemini://my.doma.in/tw.txt is totally doable, or gopher ;P
2020-10-29 17:07:54 jan6 just symlink it between the places, and boom, cohosting P;
2020-10-29 17:07:55 jan6 P;
2020-10-29 17:09:28 acdw yep
2020-10-29 17:09:32 acdw :D
2020-10-29 17:09:44 acdw what face is that -- P;
2020-10-29 17:09:46 acdw :P
2020-10-29 17:09:52 ew0k That is, in all its simplicity, quite spectacular
2020-10-29 17:10:00 ew0k twtxt, that is
2020-10-29 17:10:42 ew0k tweeting is just appending to a public txt file, and the client basically polls a bunch of these and sort the tweets in order?
2020-10-29 17:11:00 jan6 ;P
2020-10-29 17:11:20 jan6 it is and at some point there was quite a few people experimenting with it on the tildeverse
2020-10-29 17:11:26 ew0k no user profiles?
2020-10-29 17:11:40 ew0k no likes and retweets?
2020-10-29 17:12:16 acdw i think you can respond? or copy-paste?
2020-10-29 17:13:01 ew0k you can mention people, of course
2020-10-29 17:13:02 jan6 weeeelll
2020-10-29 17:13:09 jan6 you can mention, but no likes or such
2020-10-29 17:13:12 ew0k and if they follow you they'll see that
2020-10-29 17:13:13 jan6 you can just reply with +1
2020-10-29 17:13:14 jan6 lol
2020-10-29 17:13:24 jan6 um, no you won't
2020-10-29 17:13:37 acdw hm
2020-10-29 17:13:40 ew0k hm?
2020-10-29 17:14:06 ew0k If I mention @blargh, and blargh happens to follow my feed then they'd see it, right?
2020-10-29 17:14:09 jan6 following is literally just adding another txt file to pull to the client
2020-10-29 17:14:26 jan6 lol
2020-10-29 17:14:38 ew0k but. If blargh doesn't follow me I can mention them all I want. Won't make a difference :)
2020-10-29 17:14:47 jan6 the twtxt registries help solve those problems tho
2020-10-29 17:15:12 jan6 but twtxt itself is just text files, no pushing of anything, if they don't follow you they don't see your mention
2020-10-29 17:15:25 jan6 the registries deal with stuff like mentions from unknown people tho
2020-10-29 17:18:05 jan6 yeah, registry just lets you query/search for tags and mentions and words and latest tweets
2020-10-29 17:18:15 jan6 following you just gotta announce manually ;P
2020-10-29 17:18:35 jan6 back a long time when I tried it out, I devised a kinda self-imposed format, btw
2020-10-29 17:18:40 jan6 a verrry simple one
2020-10-29 17:21:18 ew0k Tell us more
2020-10-29 17:22:34 felix Actually, clients include your own feed URL in the user agent string.
2020-10-29 17:22:42 jan6 https://jan6.tilde.team/twtxt.txt
2020-10-29 17:22:56 felix So if the people you follow watch their web server logs, they'll see you.
2020-10-29 17:23:24 jan6 my format allows for up to 99 replies to any single post! and is easy extendable to 999 with an extra digit ;P
2020-10-29 17:23:41 jan6 pretty sure the clients don't HAVE to include
2020-10-29 17:23:45 jan6 official client is just one
2020-10-29 17:24:03 jan6 and while official client limits line lenght, the format doesn't limit that either
2020-10-29 17:24:06 jan6 iirc
2020-10-29 17:24:22 acdw wait twtxt has a limit of characters?
2020-10-29 17:24:29 acdw plau gpp
2020-10-29 17:24:31 acdw okay good
2020-10-29 17:24:45 felix In my experience, even simple clients like txtnish do that.
2020-10-29 17:25:08 felix And the spec says 140 chars max, but clients tend to ignore that.
2020-10-29 17:25:29 jan6 it does no
2020-10-29 17:25:31 jan6 not
2020-10-29 17:25:33 jan6 "A status should consist of up to 140 characters, longer status updates are technically possible but discouraged. "
2020-10-29 17:25:37 jan6 SHOULD
2020-10-29 17:25:49 jan6 it specifically says discouraged, as in, allowed, but not a good idea ;P
2020-10-29 17:27:13 jan6 only rules are "RFC 3339 date-time string (with or without UTC offset) followed by a TAB character (\t) to separate it from the actual text. UTF-8 with \n newlines" and how to mention people
2020-10-29 17:27:18 jan6 that's it about the spec
2020-10-29 17:27:19 jan6 lol
2020-10-29 17:27:40 jan6 oh and "no control characters in status"
2020-10-29 17:27:41 jan6 sadly
2020-10-29 17:29:24 ★ jan6 wonders about dynamic twtxt pages, maybe page.twtxt.cgi?year=2020 and such? ;P
2020-10-29 17:30:31 ew0k Haha
2020-10-29 17:30:56 jan6 or locked away with access tokens, which is very non-twtxt philosophy
2020-10-29 17:31:21 acdw no control characters, that's bs
2020-10-29 17:31:22 acdw :P
2020-10-29 17:31:32 acdw i want to draw a picutre in someone's terminal
2020-10-29 17:32:01 @tomasino . <-- i drew an ant. he smol
2020-10-29 17:32:20 acdw ENHANCE
2020-10-29 17:32:30 acdw 🐜
2020-10-29 17:32:35 @tomasino O <-- that's one of his eyes
2020-10-29 17:32:44 jan6 _-¯-_-Ø-<
2020-10-29 17:32:45 acdw \ \ <- antennae
2020-10-29 17:32:46 jan6 snek
2020-10-29 17:32:49 acdw haha
2020-10-29 17:32:53 @tomasino :D
2020-10-29 17:33:00 Dr-WaSabi tomasino: so you know that link you have on your gemini page to the nightly irc logs?
2020-10-29 17:33:07 @tomasino i do know of that
2020-10-29 17:33:09 acdw /\o/\ spider
2020-10-29 17:33:24 acdw (^v^) owl
2020-10-29 17:33:40 Dr-WaSabi do you have geminaut loaded any where?
2020-10-29 17:33:46 acdw (OvO) actually this is a better owl
2020-10-29 17:34:04 @tomasino geminaut? no
2020-10-29 17:34:10 jan6 Ø‘v‘Ø
2020-10-29 17:34:11 Dr-WaSabi need to try it Bombadillo and see if works
2020-10-29 17:34:45 @tomasino i have lagrange and kristall on this comp
2020-10-29 17:34:50 @tomasino and av98 on cosmic
2020-10-29 17:35:24 @tomasino works and is readable in lagrange
2020-10-29 17:35:52 Dr-WaSabi link works in bombadillo, so might be something about GemiNaut that doesn't like it
2020-10-29 17:36:10 @tomasino it's long
2020-10-29 17:36:12 @tomasino that's about it
2020-10-29 17:36:21 Dr-WaSabi thats what I was thinking
2020-10-29 17:36:51 @tomasino 4.3M
2020-10-29 17:36:55 Dr-WaSabi lagrange... gonna have to check that out.. love the name
2020-10-29 17:37:02 @tomasino it's very pretty
2020-10-29 17:41:56 gremax has quit (Client exited)
2020-10-29 17:44:04 felix jan6: belatedly, you might want to check out twtxt.net
2020-10-29 17:44:41 jan6 no
2020-10-29 17:44:45 jan6 I did already
2020-10-29 17:44:47 jan6 it's horrible
2020-10-29 17:45:17 jan6 https://twt.social/
2020-10-29 17:45:19 jan6 same thing
2020-10-29 17:47:08 acdw fully managed host pods?!
2020-10-29 17:47:15 felix Yep.
2020-10-29 17:47:47 felix Right now it's not the most reliable service.
2020-10-29 17:47:57 felix It's one enthusiast tinkering away.
2020-10-29 17:48:12 jan6 Twt.social is a new Social Media platform that focuses on:
2020-10-29 17:48:12 jan6 NOTE: If you’re not interested in running your own Pod or just wante to join an existing Pod (or you’re not that technical) then please visit out joinTwt landing page instead where you will find links to our iOS and Android apps and how to get started!
2020-10-29 17:48:13 jan6 lmao
2020-10-29 17:48:26 jan6 I like how it's not even notice first, it's "that focuses on NOTICE"
2020-10-29 17:48:31 felix Yes. It's not some big professional thing.
2020-10-29 17:49:06 jan6 of course it's always weird how even big companies's pages have typos on them
2020-10-29 17:59:53 jan6 lol some people losing their mind (both positively and negatively) over https://dtinth.github.io/comic-mono-font/
2020-10-29 18:03:44 felix Ah yes, the most controversial font in existence.
2020-10-29 18:05:02 acdw i like comic sans
2020-10-29 18:05:49 kiedtl you miserable heretic
2020-10-29 18:05:55 jan6 lol
2020-10-29 18:06:00 kiedtl burn acdw!
2020-10-29 18:06:03 jan6 comic mono is the best font
2020-10-29 18:06:11 ★ kiedtl pings ops
2020-10-29 18:06:22 ★ jan6 surrounds kiedtl with Papyrus
2020-10-29 18:06:23 acdw fantasque sans mono is nice too
2020-10-29 18:06:27 acdw but I *really* like Go Mono
2020-10-29 18:06:28 ericonr jan6: that gives me physical discomfort
2020-10-29 18:06:32 ericonr congratulations
2020-10-29 18:06:39 jan6 ,grab ericonr 2
2020-10-29 18:06:39 tildebot [Quotes] Quote added
2020-10-29 18:06:42 acdw no actually: https://rubjo.github.io/victor-mono/
2020-10-29 18:07:45 ★ jan6 gonna try figuring out wolfssl, probably...(formerly cyassl)
2020-10-29 18:08:05 ericonr jan6: lol
2020-10-29 18:09:23 jan6 let's see if I give up very soon, or just soon
2020-10-29 18:09:23 jan6 lol
2020-10-29 18:09:33 jan6 I still have BearSSL in my ~/tmp
2020-10-29 18:09:51 jan6 and yes of course I also have a ~/tmp in addition to /tmp being persistent, lol
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2020-10-29 18:30:12 kernel_pancake o/
2020-10-29 18:30:35 felix Hello!
2020-10-29 18:30:44 kernel_pancake I made my first gemini page 10m ago
2020-10-29 18:30:48 kernel_pancake and I like it
2020-10-29 18:30:52 kernel_pancake not my page, but gemini
2020-10-29 18:31:26 felix Congrats!
2020-10-29 18:31:36 kernel_pancake love that it supports markdown
2020-10-29 18:31:37 felix And welcome to the club!
2020-10-29 18:31:53 felix Well, kind of? It's mostly a subset.
2020-10-29 18:32:06 khuxkm you can serve straight text/markdown on gemini
2020-10-29 18:32:07 kernel_pancake preformatted text and headers are working at least :p
2020-10-29 18:32:28 felix Right, also lists and blockquotes.
2020-10-29 18:33:08 kernel_pancake what is not supported that you wish it did?
2020-10-29 18:36:39 felix Horizontal rules.
2020-10-29 18:37:04 khuxkm again, you can serve straight text/markdown over gemini
2020-10-29 18:37:28 kernel_pancake felix: maybe the client should implement that
2020-10-29 18:37:30 felix Yes, you can. It's not the same thing.
2020-10-29 18:37:50 felix And the client implements all markup, by definition.
2020-10-29 18:39:14 kiedtl khuxkm: I don't think very many clients support it.
2020-10-29 18:40:54 khuxkm okay but that's the fault of the clients
2020-10-29 18:41:02 khuxkm the protocol will allow you to serve text/markdown
2020-10-29 18:41:23 khuxkm it's up to the clients to support it
2020-10-29 18:41:37 khuxkm geez, after I finish writing Big Tiddy Gemini Server, I guess I'll need to write Big Tiddy Gemini Client
2020-10-29 18:42:12 kernel_pancake lmfao
2020-10-29 18:42:21 kernel_pancake sign me up for that
2020-10-29 18:48:00 kiedtl hmm yes, I wonder whether I should write a gemini client that support HTML
2020-10-29 18:48:24 ★ Sario528 hisses and recoils
2020-10-29 18:48:42 kiedtl Best Viewed By Kiedimini
2020-10-29 18:48:56 khuxkm hell yeah
2020-10-29 18:49:06 felix Kristall renders Markdown, and also supports HTTP(S).
2020-10-29 18:49:22 kiedtl eww really?
2020-10-29 18:50:13 felix Yes, really. Why ew? People keep saying, if you want richer markup, just make a web page.
2020-10-29 18:50:31 felix So someone implemented a client that can fall back on web pages.
2020-10-29 18:51:49 felix Otherwise you might as well just have a text editor autodetect URLs and let you follow them.
2020-10-29 18:52:36 felix Look, ma! No markup!
2020-10-29 18:52:39 kiedtl cuz it's high treason against the kingdom of gemini
2020-10-29 18:52:42 kiedtl lol
2020-10-29 18:57:04 felix No, seriously. In principle wget + less + tmux equals a web browser.
2020-10-29 18:58:13 kiedtl Yeah
2020-10-29 18:59:43 felix So why don't we settle for that? Some people seem to think it's plenty enough for Gemini.
2020-10-29 18:59:58 felix There are several clients that are essentially nothing more.
2020-10-29 19:01:11 aravk though you do need to deal with INPUT
2020-10-29 19:02:42 felix Arguably.
2020-10-29 19:03:22 felix But mostly, I get the impression that Gemini was always just meant to be a little experiment, and then people started using it for real.
2020-10-29 19:03:45 felix I know exactly what it's like because at least two things I made were received the same way.
2020-10-29 19:04:01 felix And it say "experimental" in big letters all over them.
2020-10-29 19:04:21 felix said*
2020-10-29 19:05:38 kiedtl HTML is definitely against the stated goals of gemini, right?
2020-10-29 19:05:47 aravk yep
2020-10-29 19:05:49 aravk changes all the time
2020-10-29 19:05:54 aravk too big and complicated
2020-10-29 19:06:00 kiedtl Yeah, that's what I thought
2020-10-29 19:06:17 zephryn it definitely is quite a beast of a specification
2020-10-29 19:06:32 aravk and then CSS and JS
2020-10-29 19:06:42 aravk it's a massive mess
2020-10-29 19:06:47 zephryn there certainly isn't anything stopping it from being used with gemini, though
2020-10-29 19:06:56 aravk no, but it's generally discouraged.
2020-10-29 19:06:58 ew0k True
2020-10-29 19:07:21 kiedtl CSS and JS don't necessarily have to go together with HTML
2020-10-29 19:07:47 ew0k I reckon the easiest way to make geminispace visible would be to try to add support for it in chromium
2020-10-29 19:08:01 ew0k but that sounds like a horrible idea to me
2020-10-29 19:08:02 aravk kiedtl: nearly everyone uses CSS to properly style HTML
2020-10-29 19:08:10 kiedtl You don't *have* to
2020-10-29 19:08:13 aravk would chromium even accept it?
2020-10-29 19:08:17 zephryn i would definitely be interested in seeing something between text/gemini and html being used
2020-10-29 19:08:23 aravk and I would personally keep gemini out of google's vision
2020-10-29 19:08:28 kiedtl aren't there extensions that allow gemini to be used in chromium?
2020-10-29 19:08:30 ew0k aravk: probably not
2020-10-29 19:08:32 aravk zephryn: markdown?
2020-10-29 19:08:40 zephryn yeah, something like markdown
2020-10-29 19:09:19 zephryn maybe a custom flavor of it that cuts down on some redundancies
2020-10-29 19:09:24 aravk I mean, what more styling do you need that gemtext doesn't provide
2020-10-29 19:09:49 aravk I was a big markdown proponent, but for most things gemtext works very well
2020-10-29 19:10:01 zephryn you're not wrong yeah
2020-10-29 19:10:10 aravk though I am still looking for a good structured code documentation format (like TeXInfo but better)
2020-10-29 19:11:03 zephryn i suppose things like inline images could be interpreted by clients as well without expanding text/gemini
2020-10-29 19:11:51 felix A lot of things could be, but people yell every time anything new is suggested.
2020-10-29 19:11:51 aravk it's up to the client
2020-10-29 19:12:12 aravk they can offer to download and view images if they see a known extension in the URL
2020-10-29 19:12:20 aravk (view inline)
2020-10-29 19:13:16 ew0k zephryn: in the client I’ve started working on I intend to load images inline, but only when the user clicks the link
2020-10-29 19:13:48 zephryn i love that aspect of gemini tbh, it provides just enough as a base protocol but still lets clients expand on it without affecting the specs
2020-10-29 19:14:01 ericonr jkadjasdjadjk
2020-10-29 19:14:10 ericonr oops
2020-10-29 19:14:12 ericonr sorry
2020-10-29 19:14:21 aravk ew0k: that's a good feature
2020-10-29 19:14:50 aravk what do you do if it turns out that the MIME type of the result is not an image?
2020-10-29 19:26:37 jan6 ew0k: lmao no, not chromium, buuuut go and patch curl ;P
2020-10-29 19:26:55 jan6 curl already supports gopher, so why not gemini? ;P
2020-10-29 19:27:32 jan6 also fork one of the native gopher extentions for gemini, also works
2020-10-29 19:28:29 jan6 "<aravk> I mean, what more styling do you need that gemtext doesn't provide" bold, italic, underline...literally all I'm asking for, and it doesn't deliver ;p
2020-10-29 19:29:49 jan6 screw headers, screw inline images, who cares about links, just copy those (terminals make 'em clickable anyway if you conf 'em right), those three is all I need, and nope, not in gemtext ;P
2020-10-29 19:31:59 ew0k I’d love to have bold, italic, underline, hline, maybe strikethrough, nested lists, numbered lists... But I also see that adding any of those would make it more complex to build a parser.
2020-10-29 19:32:16 ew0k I’ll just use ordinary markdown if I need them
2020-10-29 19:35:33 jan6 well, could always do it like roff
2020-10-29 19:35:34 jan6 ;P
2020-10-29 19:36:41 jan6 wouldn't be hard to make special cases, like "if line ends with _ or * or -, join it with next line", and you can just add a space to prevent that
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2020-10-29 19:37:11 jan6 and just have those be extra line types as well
2020-10-29 19:37:17 jan6 no nesting allowed, still
2020-10-29 19:38:07 jan6 very much doable and not hard, just extra stuff to write for clients
2020-10-29 19:38:45 jan6 "check first bytes of line" still works, too ;P
2020-10-29 19:41:50 ew0k jan6: I found this: https://curl.haxx.se/mail/lib-2013-01/0124.html
2020-10-29 19:42:03 ew0k putting that on my reading list
2020-10-29 19:56:34 ★ jan6 always hates how there's no EOF indicator in gemini
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2020-10-29 22:14:07 kiedtl Oh, gemtext doesn't support multiline list items? >.>
2020-10-29 22:16:10 acdw no
2020-10-29 22:16:17 acdw but you can write a reallllllly long line :)
2020-10-29 22:17:44 kiedtl multi-lined list items would be clearer in many cases :V
2020-10-29 22:18:06 kiedtl as usual, I think I'll just pretend gemtext has those for now
2020-10-29 22:18:34 acdw haha
2020-10-29 22:19:01 acdw well, the thing is, gemtext is a line-oriented format, so multiline anything would kind of require a whole rethink
2020-10-29 22:19:31 @tomasino just more * lines?
2020-10-29 22:22:31 dctrud If you feel you need a list of multi-line stuff... maybe it can just be a series of headings and content?
2020-10-29 22:23:14 @tomasino or ```
2020-10-29 22:23:21 @tomasino or just hit enter
2020-10-29 22:23:47 dctrud As soon as multi line lists come into play in other places, people think about wanting to embed preformatted into a list etc, and it gets more complicated.
2020-10-29 22:23:58 acdw i guess what we're saying is,,,, wht do you need about mutliline list?
2020-10-29 22:24:20 dctrud I fight with word and google docs lists which have code formatted monospace into them too often
2020-10-29 22:24:24 dctrud :-)
2020-10-29 22:24:46 ew0k jan6: is it a preference or does a lack of EOF cause issues? I was surprised to see that it doesn’t have it, but I haven’t thought more about it
2020-10-29 22:25:28 acdw (google docs)--
2020-10-29 22:25:47 dctrud $work is all GSuite - yay
2020-10-29 22:25:49 acdw i was just talking to my coworker yesterday about how i hate all rich text formats, they end up failing me at some point
2020-10-29 22:27:14 dctrud The EOF thing isn't without precedent. FTP RFC has e.g. "data transfers must be completed with an end-of-file (EOF) which may be explicitly stated or implied by the closing of the data connection
2020-10-29 22:28:43 acdw EOF hasn't caused an issue for me personally
2020-10-29 22:29:27 dctrud Given gemini is generally transmitting text, with some images, I'd guess it really usually pretty obvious if you get a premature end of the data coming down
2020-10-29 22:30:17 dctrud (for the human)
2020-10-29 22:31:00 acdw even with images/audio/otherstuff, a user would prolly tell as long as it's not abstract
2020-10-29 22:32:56 dctrud Guess you can get away without so much complexity and stuff if you are delivering things to a smart human, and not a dumb computer (like an HTTP REST client etc.) :-)
2020-10-29 22:33:31 acdw lol yep
2020-10-29 22:33:37 acdw ,grap dctrud
2020-10-29 22:33:42 acdw ,grab dctrud
2020-10-29 22:33:42 tildebot [Quotes] Quote added
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2020-10-30 06:57:30 jan6 ew0k: both, mainly the problem that you never know if a transfer is finished, or interrupted, or in progress
2020-10-30 06:57:54 jan6 well, you do know in progress I suppose
2020-10-30 06:58:36 jan6 but you don't know if server crashed, or there was a network error, or the page loaded successfully
2020-10-30 06:58:56 jan6 even an optional EOF would be cool
2020-10-30 07:01:44 ew0k I mean... the participant that closes a socket automatically sends an EOF, right?
2020-10-30 07:01:48 ew0k iirc
2020-10-30 07:02:17 jan6 and at least with some libraries, the socket stays open, as in, you can try to read another line, and it will just return nothing, not even indicating that stuff's over
2020-10-30 07:02:30 jan6 might have been python or something, don't remember
2020-10-30 07:02:36 ew0k oh
2020-10-30 07:02:39 jan6 or something else
2020-10-30 07:02:53 ew0k I've only done socket programming in C. Almost a decade ago :P
2020-10-30 07:03:04 jan6 so I basically had to hardcode stuff like "if getting no data for 2 seconds, assume it's over"
2020-10-30 07:03:19 jan6 or maybe it was haxe
2020-10-30 07:03:26 jan6 don't remember what that was, lol
2020-10-30 07:04:09 ew0k There is reason to set a timeout for transfers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slowloris_(computer_security)
2020-10-30 07:06:30 ew0k I guess a content-length header would preclude the need for an EOF too
2020-10-30 07:06:57 jan6 yeah
2020-10-30 07:07:05 ew0k if you haven't received all the bits and pieces yet, you're obviously not done so to speak :)
2020-10-30 07:07:13 jan6 but "yet another header, and gemini's not supposed to be extentible"
2020-10-30 07:07:14 jan6 lol
2020-10-30 07:07:32 jan6 a content-length header would be cool
2020-10-30 07:07:50 ew0k As acdw said yesterday it can just be added with the mime-type etc
2020-10-30 07:08:05 jan6 but, but, non-extendability! ;P
2020-10-30 07:08:36 jan6 would be best if it was a required part of standards
2020-10-30 07:08:44 ew0k well. It's *going* to be extended. It's still in some sort of beta, after all
2020-10-30 07:09:05 ew0k either the worst kinks are worked out or it becomes a fad protocol
2020-10-30 07:09:07 jan6 yeah, this is a small and sane enough change it could be considered
2020-10-30 07:09:31 jan6 gemini+titan network seems cool underground web ;P
2020-10-30 07:10:39 jan6 hmm, on that note, I don't remember, if someone had modded dillo yet to add gemini support? that could be cool too
2020-10-30 07:10:47 ★ jan6 should really learn C sometime
2020-10-30 07:10:49 jan6 maybe D too
2020-10-30 07:11:19 jan6 it should be hard to learn, just annoying to deal with all the pointers and addresses and manual memory management and whatnot
2020-10-30 07:11:24 jan6 *shouldn't
2020-10-30 07:12:14 zephryn funny you say that, i literally just started diving into c like half an hour ago :P
2020-10-30 07:12:38 ew0k jan6: haha! As I had breakfast this morning I thought about dillo and wondered whether someone had or would add gemini support for it :D
2020-10-30 07:16:35 ew0k I thought about yesterday's discussion on markup languages, and the shortcomings of gemtext
2020-10-30 07:18:26 ew0k I really like gemtext -- especially because it's so easy to parse. Developing a browser that supports it is really simple. But markdown already has parsers for virtually every usable language; if you can render HTML then building a browser that supports HTML, markdown and gemtext would be a breeze
2020-10-30 07:20:24 jan6 markdown was SUPPOSED to be used for converting to html
2020-10-30 07:20:25 jan6 lol
2020-10-30 07:20:44 jan6 the original spec specifically says that any html should be passed through as-is, also
2020-10-30 07:22:17 jan6 I really don't see why my multiline-but-singleline formatting addon idea doesn't seem to be used or loved, btw...and I don't have time, or skill to do much stuff
2020-10-30 07:22:18 jan6 lol
2020-10-30 07:23:26 jan6 in conscription, so not much free time to try stuff
2020-10-30 07:23:38 jan6 even now, I shouldn't be here, but today's an exception
2020-10-30 07:36:51 ew0k "multiline-but-singleline formatting addon idea" -- I may have been too tired (or not here) when you've talked about this. Can you explain it?
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2020-10-30 11:53:08 ew0k sent my first mail to the mailing list! Did it get through?
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2020-10-30 13:33:41 ew0k aravk: sorry, I got you mixed up with acdw :P And I forgot that you sent both proposals to the list
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2020-10-30 14:23:12 khuxkm i have an implementation question
2020-10-30 14:26:03 khuxkm say someone requests a directory (gemini://c05f031a.nip.io/directory/)
2020-10-30 14:26:30 @tomasino cat.nip.io, got it
2020-10-30 14:26:33 khuxkm and in the server side of things, I can see it's a directory
2020-10-30 14:27:05 khuxkm 1) if I cannot list the directory (not +x), what error code do I give? it's not a *permanent* failure per se, but the server can't do anything
2020-10-30 14:27:36 khuxkm 2) if I don't want to list the directory (i.e; like nginx with directory pages turned off), what error code do I give then?
2020-10-30 14:27:46 @tomasino you could choose to display an index file if present, list the directory, respond with a blank view as success, or give an error code that the resource is missing
2020-10-30 14:28:07 khuxkm so I've got the whole index page thing down
2020-10-30 14:28:22 khuxkm but I guess I'm asking for semantics on what error code to use
2020-10-30 14:28:35 khuxkm because if I can't list the directory, 51 feels wrong
2020-10-30 14:28:40 khuxkm it's there, I just can't see it
2020-10-30 14:29:01 khuxkm there's no 403 unless I want to get into client cert semantics
2020-10-30 14:29:19 khuxkm well, there's no error code like http 403
2020-10-30 14:29:25 @tomasino isn't there 40 series that cover that?
2020-10-30 14:29:30 @tomasino i forget the 40 codes
2020-10-30 14:29:53 khuxkm I'd have to give a generic 40
2020-10-30 14:30:18 khuxkm 41 = server's overloaded, 42 = CGI error, 43 = proxy error, 44 = rate limit
2020-10-30 14:30:47 @tomasino oh, looking it up 51 seems right
2020-10-30 14:30:51 @tomasino not found but may be there in the future
2020-10-30 14:31:04 khuxkm but that's not the semantic I'm looking for
2020-10-30 14:31:09 khuxkm I've found it, but I can't access it
2020-10-30 14:31:17 khuxkm it's there, but unaccessible for some other reason
2020-10-30 14:31:25 khuxkm web servers would give 403 in that case
2020-10-30 14:31:31 @tomasino 61 CERTIFICATE NOT AUTHORISED ?
2020-10-30 14:31:47 @tomasino whether you were using a client cert or not, you aren't authorized to see it
2020-10-30 14:31:48 @tomasino so maybe?
2020-10-30 14:31:58 khuxkm that's what I was saying about getting into client cert semantics
2020-10-30 14:32:21 khuxkm my understanding is that it would be out of spec to give 61 without first giving a 60
2020-10-30 14:32:44 @tomasino would it?
2020-10-30 14:33:47 @tomasino arguably there could be a 5X code for denied
2020-10-30 14:34:00 @tomasino but i don't think you'd be wrong to just use 51 or 61
2020-10-30 14:34:14 @tomasino if you can't access it, it's not there for you, so 51 works
2020-10-30 14:36:16 khuxkm part of me wants to say 53 BAD REQUEST but that implies that there's something wrong with the request, which isn't exactly the case
2020-10-30 14:36:49 khuxkm I think I'll do "40 Resource currently unavailable"
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2020-10-30 14:36:55 khuxkm and lobby the mailing list for a 45
2020-10-30 14:37:37 @tomasino solderpunk just finished his move so i expect he'll be jumping back in and responding to all this stuff more shortly
2020-10-30 14:51:52 khuxkm actually, what does spec say about just... returning an error code that isn't what most people expect
2020-10-30 14:52:05 khuxkm could I just start returning 45 without it being in spec
2020-10-30 14:52:30 @tomasino you could
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2020-10-30 15:13:14 weeb ive seen clients ask the user for a replacement cert when the server answers with 61
2020-10-30 15:13:21 weeb might not be desired in ur case
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2020-10-30 15:20:48 @tomasino ahh, good point
2020-10-30 15:29:32 ew0k khuxkm: the client only has to care about the first digit in the error code. Everything else is optional
2020-10-30 15:30:22 ew0k I would reply with a 40, I think. But a "45 Forbidden" would be fine by me
2020-10-30 15:45:04 ew0k I've gotten a little stuck with my GUI browser. I can't help thinking that there must be a simpler way to build it.
2020-10-30 15:45:41 ew0k My goal would be a browser that looks and feels like a simple web browser, and renders gmi pages in a pretty way
2020-10-30 15:46:06 ew0k But I realize that building the GUI from scratch in tkinter is going to take *forever*
2020-10-30 15:49:01 felix Didn't seem that way when I made Gophersnake, but then I stopped early on. No bookmarks, history or anything.
2020-10-30 15:51:51 felix Maybe you can crib something from here? http://ctrl-c.club/~nttp/toys/gophersnake/
2020-10-30 15:56:36 ew0k felix: Nice! I'll have a look at it :)
2020-10-30 16:07:02 aravk jan6: just use asterisks, underscores, etc. - people will get your point
2020-10-30 16:07:58 ew0k felix: gophersnake is beautiful!
2020-10-30 16:08:07 ★ felix blushes
2020-10-30 16:08:10 felix Thank you!
2020-10-30 16:08:12 aravk in fact, you generally don't need to mark things specifically as bold / italic / underline - any indication of emphasis will get your point across
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2020-10-30 17:02:46 jan6 khuxkm: you can always just serve a success page with "no permission to view" content, or such, which I guess is also bad practice (like the http 200 error pages)
2020-10-30 17:04:31 jan6 you don't need to mark things as links, or headers either, aravk, people will also get the point across ;P
2020-10-30 17:05:14 jan6 09:36 <ew0k> "multiline-but-singleline formatting addon idea" -- I may have been too tired (or not here) when you've talked about this. Can you explain it?
2020-10-30 17:06:33 jan6 just something like "if line starts with _ then concaternate it with the previous line and also make it underlined if possible", better yet if also parsing end of line for tht too
2020-10-30 17:07:34 jan6 and same for *, which differentiates from lists by not having a space before text, and maybe - for strikethrough, too
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2020-10-30 17:07:41 jan6 or something along those lines, I imagine
2020-10-30 17:07:56 jan6 that'd change up all existing client logic tho, so ehhhh
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2020-10-30 17:08:28 jan6 you'd basically need to keep a line in a buffer till you read the first two bytes of the next line
2020-10-30 17:08:53 jan6 and then see if you pring newline or not before that line
2020-10-30 17:08:58 ew0k aravk: a sha1 hash is only 40 characters -- would probably be perfectly fine to have in the <META> field, and I'd say the risk of collisions is small enough that it's usable :)
2020-10-30 17:08:58 jan6 *print
2020-10-30 17:09:16 jan6 why not just cksum checksum at that point? ;P
2020-10-30 17:09:48 ew0k jan6: that sounds like it would be really simple to parse, but less human-readable
2020-10-30 17:09:51 ew0k cksum?
2020-10-30 17:09:53 jan6 or crc32 (which is pretty close to cksum, only barely different)
2020-10-30 17:10:07 jan6 hello world, this word is
2020-10-30 17:10:09 acdw i don't see why a checksum is needed tbh
2020-10-30 17:10:09 ew0k huh. I'd never tried that before
2020-10-30 17:10:11 jan6 *bold*
2020-10-30 17:10:14 jan6 for you to notice it
2020-10-30 17:10:24 jan6 not that bad to read, imho
2020-10-30 17:10:40 jan6 idk what's all this checksum is about, tbh
2020-10-30 17:10:52 acdw the thing i like about gemini is it assumes a human reader on the other end, and a human reader is smart enough to know if they've lookd at something before or not
2020-10-30 17:10:57 acdw or .. if they're not it's on them
2020-10-30 17:10:57 ew0k the checksum is about caching :)
2020-10-30 17:11:02 ew0k different discussion
2020-10-30 17:11:16 acdw almost everything in geminispace is small enough that a cache isn't really needed tbh
2020-10-30 17:11:41 acdw i'd think if anything, instead of a checksum it would just need a 'latest updated' thing
2020-10-30 17:11:54 acdw that'd actually be more easy to implement imo and more informative
2020-10-30 17:12:05 acdw like idc what the content *is* just wheter it's new or not
2020-10-30 17:14:08 jan6 crc32 is prefect for such basic checksum btw, it's used for stuff like checking for errors in transfer, and such non-important stuff already, part of the IP stack protocols I think
2020-10-30 17:14:55 jan6 my formatting idea wouldn't make the text too hard to read assuming you use it sparingly, imho
2020-10-30 17:15:16 jan6 just tried it out for a few sentences
2020-10-30 17:15:28 jan6 it just makes the words stand out, as they're on their own lines
2020-10-30 17:16:31 acdw oh jan6: what's your formatting idea? I came in in the middle of that discussion
2020-10-30 17:16:39 khuxkm according to the spec, the contents of <META> on a 4x response code should be shown to a human user
2020-10-30 17:16:47 jan6 lol just look a little back, acdw
2020-10-30 17:16:51 khuxkm so I think I'll do 40 RESOURCE UNAVAILABLE
2020-10-30 17:17:11 jan6 ~10 min ago
2020-10-30 17:17:31 acdw I wasn't here 10 min ago .. this is the first line i have: 12:08:28 PM - jan6: you'd basically need to keep a line in a buffer till you read the first two bytes of the next line
2020-10-30 17:17:31 khuxkm maybe whenever we look at spec changes again I'm gonna suggest a 45 RESOURCE UNAVAILABLE code for when the server has access to a resource, but isn't willing to serve that resource at this time to any user
2020-10-30 17:17:54 acdw prolly 41 khuxkm, or whatever the next one is
2020-10-30 17:18:11 acdw 45 might be the next one, in which case, sorry!
2020-10-30 17:18:44 khuxkm we had this convo already before you came in, no need for apologies
2020-10-30 17:18:50 jan6 oh huh
2020-10-30 17:19:12 khuxkm basically 41 doesn't work as "The server is unavailable due to overload or maintenance. (cf HTTP 503)" doesn't apply
2020-10-30 17:19:18 jan6 19:05 <jan6> 09:36 <ew0k> "multiline-but-singleline formatting addon idea" -- I may have been too tired (or not here) when you've talked about this. Can you explain it?
2020-10-30 17:19:18 jan6 19:06 <jan6> just something like "if line starts with _ then concaternate it with the previous line and also make it underlined if possible", better yet if also parsing end of line for tht too
2020-10-30 17:19:18 jan6 19:07 <jan6> and same for *, which differentiates from lists by not having a space before text, and maybe - for strikethrough, too
2020-10-30 17:19:18 jan6 19:07 <-- awalvie (~awalvie@150.242.255.20) has quit (The TLS connection was non-properly terminated.)
2020-10-30 17:19:18 jan6 19:07 <jan6> or something along those lines, I imagine
2020-10-30 17:19:18 jan6 19:07 <jan6> that'd change up all existing client logic tho, so ehhhh
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2020-10-30 17:19:18 jan6 19:08 <jan6> you'd basically need to keep a line in a buffer till you read the first two bytes of the next line
2020-10-30 17:19:18 jan6 1
2020-10-30 17:19:22 jan6 sorry 4 spam
2020-10-30 17:19:33 khuxkm the server is available, it just chooses not to serve that resource
2020-10-30 17:19:39 jan6 I think it's barely few enough lines to not warrant a pastebin yet ;P
2020-10-30 17:19:53 khuxkm 51 implies the resource isn't there, which it is, it's just not available
2020-10-30 17:20:00 jan6 also why not set history mode on this channel?
2020-10-30 17:20:14 acdw jan6: thank you so much, i just realized i could've like,,,looked at tomasino's log lol
2020-10-30 17:20:20 jan6 lol
2020-10-30 17:20:27 jan6 I didn't know you could
2020-10-30 17:20:30 khuxkm 61 requires client certificate semantics that I'd rather not use, plus it raises the question of "do you need to use 60 first to get a client cert"
2020-10-30 17:20:41 acdw it sounds .. sort of like man-style or groff-style formatting
2020-10-30 17:20:45 khuxkm where is it logged?
2020-10-30 17:20:49 khuxkm also tomasino: can we get +H please?
2020-10-30 17:20:58 khuxkm the topic just says "logged in gemspace"
2020-10-30 17:20:59 jan6 just roff, not groff ;P
2020-10-30 17:21:25 jan6 maybe it's logged in gem.space? ;P
2020-10-30 17:21:29 acdw hang on lemme find it
2020-10-30 17:21:47 acdw jan6: ah, okay :P but you could serve text/roff ;)
2020-10-30 17:22:16 jan6 well...not really...nobody would implement it, lol
2020-10-30 17:22:29 acdw gemini://makeworld.gq/irc/ <- khuxkm
2020-10-30 17:22:38 acdw jan6: that's their problem ;)
2020-10-30 17:22:39 khuxkm just serve text/markdown and get on with it
2020-10-30 17:22:43 jan6 and it's way annoying to deal with, as little as I've seen it
2020-10-30 17:22:45 khuxkm >.<
2020-10-30 17:22:52 khuxkm uh I didn't mean to do that but that's neat
2020-10-30 17:23:02 acdw I mean, that could work too -- honestly I just don't worry about the formatting and use ascii to format
2020-10-30 17:23:12 khuxkm is this invert colors?
2020-10-30 17:23:12 jan6 ˙_˙
2020-10-30 17:23:23 acdw b/c i figure, again, people are smart enough to figure out *this* means bold or _this_ means italic/underline and /this/ is italic
2020-10-30 17:23:30 acdw khuxkm: nope
2020-10-30 17:23:34 acdw not for me anyway
2020-10-30 17:23:37 khuxkm what does it show up as for you?
2020-10-30 17:23:40 acdw italic
2020-10-30 17:23:42 jan6 and this is not inverted
2020-10-30 17:23:44 khuxkm oh
2020-10-30 17:23:51 khuxkm TIL irssi shows italics as inverted colors
2020-10-30 17:23:53 acdw i'm on thunderbird tho, so idk
2020-10-30 17:24:06 acdw that's a terminal thing
2020-10-30 17:24:20 acdw can you see italics elsewhere in your terminal?
2020-10-30 17:24:37 jan6 my last text should in theory be bold and italic and underlined, and last word inverted front and background color
2020-10-30 17:24:43 khuxkm aaaaaaaa
2020-10-30 17:24:49 khuxkm how would I check that?
2020-10-30 17:25:01 jan6 tho tmux seems to hate italics, sadly
2020-10-30 17:25:17 jan6 weechat itself also doesn't seem to like italics, tbh
2020-10-30 17:25:18 acdw jan6: yeha so Thunderbird does not do inverted
2020-10-30 17:25:22 khuxkm acdw: how do I check to see if my terminal likes italics?
2020-10-30 17:25:27 jan6 hmm
2020-10-30 17:25:32 jan6 hmm
2020-10-30 17:25:32 acdw khuxkm: check the ansi escape
2020-10-30 17:25:35 acdw hang on lemme find em
2020-10-30 17:25:38 jan6 hmmhmm
2020-10-30 17:25:51 jan6 is there colors? is there any difference between the hmm's?
2020-10-30 17:26:01 khuxkm acdw: disregard I found it
2020-10-30 17:26:05 acdw https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANSI_escape_code#SGR_parameters <- this is what you want to see
2020-10-30 17:26:06 acdw oh lol
2020-10-30 17:26:11 khuxkm and yes it is my terminal that shows the italics as invert
2020-10-30 17:26:12 khuxkm nice
2020-10-30 17:26:15 jan6 that page is in my bookmarks, lol
2020-10-30 17:26:21 acdw jan6: both are blue, the second hmm is italic
2020-10-30 17:26:24 acdw smart jan6
2020-10-30 17:26:31 jan6 mine does not do such sucky stuff, lol
2020-10-30 17:26:42 jan6 is italics
2020-10-30 17:26:44 acdw mine too now
2020-10-30 17:26:50 jan6 ^ is not italics on this term tho
2020-10-30 17:26:56 jan6 bc tmux sux
2020-10-30 17:27:12 khuxkm aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
2020-10-30 17:27:20 khuxkm aaaaaaaaaaaa
2020-10-30 17:27:25 khuxkm there we go that's what I was trying to do
2020-10-30 17:27:31 jan6 that message *IS* italics, right, acdw, the "is italics" is italics?
2020-10-30 17:27:44 acdw haha
2020-10-30 17:27:49 khuxkm anyways, what's this channel about? gemini? let's talk about gemini
2020-10-30 17:27:51 acdw jan6: ye
2020-10-30 17:27:56 acdw geminiiiiii
2020-10-30 17:28:00 acdw i have a new capsule
2020-10-30 17:28:04 acdw gemini://gem.acdw.net
2020-10-30 17:28:07 acdw all old stuff rn
2020-10-30 17:28:12 acdw using phoebe wiki
2020-10-30 17:28:16 acdw not sure if i'm going to stay on that
2020-10-30 17:28:19 acdw but ... ywa
2020-10-30 17:28:21 acdw discuss
2020-10-30 17:28:23 acdw :P
2020-10-30 17:29:16 jan6 I should get on it trying to make a gemini client in haxe, AGAIN
2020-10-30 17:29:17 jan6 lol
2020-10-30 17:29:25 jan6 forgot where the last attempt went
2020-10-30 17:29:37 jan6 but I do remember pain, as usual
2020-10-30 17:30:44 khuxkm I need to figure out how to get an SSL cert for a localhost so I can test my gemini server
2020-10-30 17:30:55 jan6 self sign, duh
2020-10-30 17:30:57 jan6 lol
2020-10-30 17:31:08 jan6 self signing is supposed to be fine with gemini
2020-10-30 17:31:51 jan6 also can always make your own CA and add that to your local system CA list, so it's auto-trusted as a valid cert
2020-10-30 17:32:05 jan6 also fun fact
2020-10-30 17:32:12 jan6 you can make a dns record point to 127.0.0.1
2020-10-30 17:32:56 jan6 so you can make localhost.khuxkm.page point to your localhost IP, and have a letsencrypt cert or such ;P
2020-10-30 17:33:09 jan6 khuxkm: ^ 3 ways, pick your poison
2020-10-30 17:35:44 khuxkm I don't own a domain :P
2020-10-30 17:36:20 khuxkm how does one self-sign a cert?
2020-10-30 17:36:24 ★ khuxkm google
2020-10-30 17:37:48 jan6 you can always get a free .ml or .tk domain, or get a wer.ee or 1337331.xyz subdomain from me ;P
2020-10-30 17:37:59 jan6 self-plug *airhorn*
2020-10-30 17:38:35 jan6 self signing is not that trivial so yeah best search'em
2020-10-30 17:38:51 khuxkm https://stackoverflow.com/questions/10175812/how-to-create-a-self-signed-certificate-with-openssl in one command :P
2020-10-30 17:39:34 boringcactus some servers will make you a self signed cert automatically
2020-10-30 17:39:51 boringcactus like gmnisrv
2020-10-30 17:42:15 acdw khuxkm: there's actually a good command on the phoebe readme, hold on
2020-10-30 17:42:56 khuxkm boringcactus: well I'm writing my own server so that won't actually help me any :)
2020-10-30 17:42:56 acdw openssl req -new -x509 -newkey ec \
2020-10-30 17:42:56 acdw -pkeyopt ec_paramgen_curve:prime256v1 \
2020-10-30 17:42:56 acdw -days 1825 -nodes -out cert.pem -keyout key.pem
2020-10-30 17:43:06 boringcactus lmfao
2020-10-30 17:43:10 acdw hit enter a lot -- at CN enter localhost
2020-10-30 17:43:22 acdw then in your browser, go to gemini://localhost
2020-10-30 17:43:36 boringcactus which language?
2020-10-30 17:43:37 khuxkm did I mention I'm writing it on ~team
2020-10-30 17:43:49 khuxkm I can't write code locally on the school chromebook
2020-10-30 17:43:56 acdw chromebook--
2020-10-30 17:44:03 acdw but that's cool you can get into ~team
2020-10-30 17:44:12 acdw I found out my work blocks *all* ssh connections apparently
2020-10-30 17:44:22 acdw i changed my port and everything, stil nothing
2020-10-30 17:44:34 boringcactus galaxy brain: run ssh on port 80
2020-10-30 17:46:13 khuxkm mega galaxy brain: webssh on the mc.bhh.sh box
2020-10-30 17:47:50 boringcactus but yeah if you're using Rust then https://crates.io/crates/rcgen will make your life easier
2020-10-30 17:48:21 boringcactus https://git.sr.ht/~boringcactus/gemifedi/tree/main/src/main.rs#L411 usage example
2020-10-30 17:49:30 acdw boringcactus: lolol
2020-10-30 17:49:35 acdw i do eventually want to run http
2020-10-30 17:50:04 acdw oh rcgen looks dope
2020-10-30 17:50:25 acdw khuxkm: that's minecraft?
2020-10-30 17:50:27 ★ acdw confused
2020-10-30 17:50:36 acdw i thought i *knew* computers
2020-10-30 17:53:13 boringcactus https://git.sr.ht/~sircmpwn/gmnisrv/tree/master/src/tls.c#L18 here's self signed cert generation in C
2020-10-30 17:54:40 khuxkm acdw: no, it's the hardcore Minecraft server
2020-10-30 17:55:02 acdw is that not minecraft?
2020-10-30 17:55:11 khuxkm but I also use it as my personal box (at least until I can afford one of my own) ever since b3n discontinued LXD containers on ~team
2020-10-30 17:55:39 acdw what's lxd containers?
2020-10-30 17:56:10 acdw also how do i join the hardcore minecraft server? also how is it also a computer?
2020-10-30 17:56:16 ★ acdw more confused, possibly
2020-10-30 17:57:48 khuxkm okay so basically I used to have an LXD container on ~.team (basically a computer within a computer)
2020-10-30 17:58:37 khuxkm separately, I also got the idea to start a modded Minecraft server, so ben gave me another server (in reality, a VM on the same host that runs tilde.team) to run the modded server on
2020-10-30 17:58:53 khuxkm eventually I gave up on the modded server since nobody was playing on it, so I started a hardcore server in its place
2020-10-30 17:59:14 acdw oh neat
2020-10-30 17:59:20 khuxkm then, b3n stopped handing out LXD containers, and he asked me what I wanted to do with mine
2020-10-30 17:59:21 acdw and that's ... got ssh?
2020-10-30 17:59:31 khuxkm yeah it's a server like tilde.team
2020-10-30 17:59:45 acdw oh wild
2020-10-30 17:59:57 jan6 lol duh
2020-10-30 17:59:57 khuxkm but he wanted to get rid of the containers so I moved all of the stuff from my container to the server that runs the hardcore stuff
2020-10-30 18:00:01 acdw so you can sign in w/ minecraft and ssh like hat?
2020-10-30 18:00:05 khuxkm yeah
2020-10-30 18:00:07 jan6 why did he want to get rid of containers, khuxkm
2020-10-30 18:00:08 jan6 ?
2020-10-30 18:00:17 khuxkm idk ask him
2020-10-30 18:00:29 khuxkm anyways this is the gemini channel and we're getting off topic again
2020-10-30 18:00:32 jan6 lol
2020-10-30 18:00:36 jan6 why not offtopic ;P
2020-10-30 18:00:51 acdw GEMINI
2020-10-30 18:01:03 acdw let's have micro-protocols named after all the constellations
2020-10-30 18:01:14 acdw what servers do yall us
2020-10-30 18:01:16 acdw ues
2020-10-30 18:01:18 acdw use
2020-10-30 18:01:57 jan6 lol
2020-10-30 18:02:17 jan6 hmm, maybe I should see how hard it is to make a posix sh based gemini server sometime
2020-10-30 18:02:18 jan6 lol
2020-10-30 18:02:24 jan6 like I have done gemini-get
2020-10-30 18:03:07 jan6 openssl and socat can be the ssl layer, I mean mainly the rest... and of course that means it'd be really hard to make it multithreaded, so not gonna be that, lol
2020-10-30 18:03:57 jan6 with enough determination, you CAN make multithreaded shell scripts that can check each thread and possibly exchange data with fifo or something
2020-10-30 18:04:54 khuxkm when I first heard of gemini I kinda wanted to make a competing protocol and call it Challenger (for reasons that should be obvious), but I decided against actually moving forward with it (for obvious reasons, including that the name would have been in poor taste)
2020-10-30 18:07:35 acdw jan6: i'd love to try that
2020-10-30 18:08:01 acdw maybe ... a makefile? that's multithreaded
2020-10-30 18:08:17 acdw khuxkm: what would the challenger protocl be for?
2020-10-30 18:09:00 khuxkm well the idea was to basically make a competing protocol to Gemini that would be extensible by nature
2020-10-30 18:09:17 khuxkm not the web, per se, but somewhere between gemini and the web
2020-10-30 18:10:10 jan6 if you'd done that I might've had to make Apollo, and require encoding data in soundwaves
2020-10-30 18:10:11 jan6 lol
2020-10-30 18:11:02 acdw lol khuxkm
2020-10-30 18:11:13 acdw omg somewhere b/w gemini and the we
2020-10-30 18:11:24 acdw somewhere b/w challenger and the web
2020-10-30 18:27:19 nixo has quit (Ping timeout: 120 seconds)
2020-10-30 18:31:08 @tomasino khuxkm: there's a joke i wanna make in extremely poor taste. just letting you know i'm biting my tongue
2020-10-30 18:31:36 acdw uh do it
2020-10-30 18:31:42 khuxkm I mean the idea of naming the protocol Challenger was also in extremely poor taste
2020-10-30 18:31:43 ★ tomasino buttons lips
2020-10-30 18:31:45 acdw now you have to , it's the law
2020-10-30 18:31:51 @tomasino yeah my joke was challenger related
2020-10-30 18:31:52 khuxkm just get on with it
2020-10-30 18:31:54 acdw you can't just *say* you have a joke
2020-10-30 18:31:56 acdw then not make it
2020-10-30 18:32:01 acdw something crash and burn?
2020-10-30 18:32:05 acdw break up on re-entry?
2020-10-30 18:32:09 acdw everyone dies?
2020-10-30 18:32:11 @tomasino something like that
2020-10-30 18:32:14 acdw schoolteachers?
2020-10-30 18:32:20 acdw bodies falling to earth?
2020-10-30 18:32:31 khuxkm what was this channel about?
2020-10-30 18:32:32 acdw the tragedy of it all live on national tv?
2020-10-30 18:32:32 khuxkm gemini?
2020-10-30 18:32:35 acdw GEMINI
2020-10-30 18:32:37 acdw RIGHT
2020-10-30 18:32:38 khuxkm let's go back to talking about gemini
2020-10-30 18:32:49 @tomasino gemini is fun
2020-10-30 18:32:51 @tomasino i like it
2020-10-30 18:32:51 acdw so i still need to know .... what is the best gemini server
2020-10-30 18:33:00 @tomasino well it was tomasino.org
2020-10-30 18:33:12 acdw s/$/ software
2020-10-30 18:33:20 acdw dam tildebot isn't here
2020-10-30 18:33:22 admicos consider this: gemini server as a linux kernel module
2020-10-30 18:33:24 acdw best server *software*
2020-10-30 18:33:27 acdw lol yes admicos
2020-10-30 18:33:41 acdw i want to upload and edit content *without* ssh
2020-10-30 18:33:46 acdw b/c wokr is dumb
2020-10-30 18:33:57 acdw and i want to serve on the gemini protocol
2020-10-30 18:34:02 acdw 2 things that i need
2020-10-30 18:34:11 acdw phoebe does it, but i don't like how it organizes things
2020-10-30 18:34:49 @tomasino there, tomasino.org is back up
2020-10-30 18:35:30 acdw nice
2020-10-30 18:35:37 @tomasino and acdw, my tomasino.org response answers both questions
2020-10-30 18:35:37 acdw honestly maybe i should do that
2020-10-30 18:35:38 @tomasino :D
2020-10-30 18:35:44 acdw how would you do paths?
2020-10-30 18:35:46 acdw lol
2020-10-30 18:35:56 @tomasino no clue
2020-10-30 18:35:56 @tomasino haha
2020-10-30 18:36:02 acdw bah
2020-10-30 18:36:07 @tomasino gotta read the request and then use that to shoot the response over
2020-10-30 18:36:12 acdw somebody had a secret bash server somewhere
2020-10-30 18:36:33 acdw how do i read the request D:
2020-10-30 18:36:36 @tomasino jan6 probably. he's sneaky
2020-10-30 18:36:40 acdw mebbe
2020-10-30 18:36:43 acdw prolly in my work notes
2020-10-30 18:37:39 acdw i just found out Thunderbird searches chats too :O
2020-10-30 18:38:00 @tomasino haha
2020-10-30 18:38:16 acdw shit i think it was in irc
2020-10-30 18:38:35 acdw tomasino: is your whole ass log up anywhere?
2020-10-30 18:38:52 jan6 lol
2020-10-30 18:39:05 jan6 do it like procfs, a virtual filesystem, while at it
2020-10-30 18:39:26 acdw dam i'm gonna have to write this thing
2020-10-30 18:40:00 acdw you think a while read line; do would work?
2020-10-30 18:41:01 @tomasino yep
2020-10-30 18:41:21 @tomasino gemini://tilde.team/~tomasino/irc/log.txt
2020-10-30 18:41:38 acdw ty
2020-10-30 18:42:24 @tomasino i don't know how to wrap the in/out communication with TLS properly. If that part weren't an issue i'd have a much easier time with it all
2020-10-30 18:42:30 khuxkm what port is Gemini supposed to run on
2020-10-30 18:42:34 @tomasino 1965
2020-10-30 18:42:37 acdw lol searching for 'server' is gonna be fun
2020-10-30 18:42:44 khuxkm thanks tomasino
2020-10-30 18:42:46 @tomasino NP
2020-10-30 18:42:48 khuxkm I knew it was 19-something
2020-10-30 18:42:49 acdw me too tomasino, me too
2020-10-30 18:44:00 ℹ Mode #gemini [+H 50:24m] by tomasino
2020-10-30 18:44:09 acdw wuh woah, it's frozen
2020-10-30 18:44:10 @tomasino er... 24 minutes, that's not right
2020-10-30 18:44:30 ℹ Mode #gemini [+H 50:1d] by tomasino
2020-10-30 18:44:37 @tomasino that'd better
2020-10-30 18:44:41 khuxkm 24 minutes lol
2020-10-30 18:44:44 @tomasino which client did you do the request with, acdw
2020-10-30 18:44:53 acdw elpher
2020-10-30 18:45:08 @tomasino it comes up nicely in lagrange and av98
2020-10-30 18:45:21 @tomasino you might be able to use one of those gem-curl things on it and save it local
2020-10-30 18:45:21 acdw the request was fine, emacs was having a hard time with 'b?a?sh.*server' and highlighting the ,,, 4M file
2020-10-30 18:45:23 @tomasino 4.5MB
2020-10-30 18:45:35 acdw yea, it downloaded no problem, it wsa the searching of it ;P
2020-10-30 18:45:36 @tomasino this is why vim is the answer, acdw
2020-10-30 18:45:40 @tomasino :P
2020-10-30 18:45:41 acdw lol
2020-10-30 18:45:44 acdw now i'm in emacs tho
2020-10-30 18:45:46 acdw like, i'm IN there
2020-10-30 18:45:49 khuxkm whatever gemini server tilde.team uses is a piece of garbage
2020-10-30 18:45:55 @tomasino oh?
2020-10-30 18:45:58 @tomasino gemserv, i think
2020-10-30 18:46:07 khuxkm I literally just want to make a request via s_client
2020-10-30 18:46:19 khuxkm but I have approximate 2 nanoseconds to type a URL in
2020-10-30 18:46:23 acdw FOUND IT
2020-10-30 18:46:24 acdw i think
2020-10-30 18:47:48 @tomasino be faster, khuxkm
2020-10-30 18:50:28 acdw khuxkm: try printf '%s\r\n' gemini://tilde.team/ | openssl s_client ....
2020-10-30 18:54:06 khuxkm I'm gonna make a Gemini requests adapter instead
2020-10-30 18:54:14 khuxkm because I like cursed things
2020-10-30 18:54:27 acdw tomasino: I *think* it's in here git://thebackupbox.net/shell-daemons
2020-10-30 18:54:35 acdw aight
2020-10-30 18:54:38 acdw khuxkm: sounds good
2020-10-30 18:57:09 @tomasino i think YOURE a shell daemon
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2020-10-30 19:02:01 acdw craw
2020-10-30 19:02:08 acdw that's what the shell daemon say
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2020-10-30 19:10:58 jan6 lmao
2020-10-30 19:11:09 jan6 imagine not piping but manually typing
2020-10-30 19:11:26 jan6 also, just gemini-get_openssl.sh ;P
2020-10-30 19:12:09 jan6 s/-/_/
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2020-10-30 19:39:07 ew0k I can’t for the life of me find either the capsule or the website for the titan protocol :/
2020-10-30 19:39:25 ew0k Read it the other day. Lost it again
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2020-10-30 20:09:41 oms https://communitywiki.org/wiki/Titan ew0k
2020-10-30 20:09:50 oms lmgtfy (let me gus this for you)
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2020-10-30 20:13:06 oms random gripe: I've spent too long trying to get any gemini client to compile on debian 8
2020-10-30 20:13:35 oms gemini tossing out retrocomputing support with SSL is one thing, but even 2015 is too retro
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2020-10-30 20:25:56 ew0k oms: Thank you! I’ve tried both gusing and duckduckgoing to no avail :D
2020-10-30 20:31:41 @tomasino omg, can someone make a gemini lmgtfy?
2020-10-30 20:31:46 @tomasino via gus?
2020-10-30 20:31:48 @tomasino that would be stellar
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2020-10-30 20:39:53 xfnw let my gus that for you
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2020-10-30 20:55:40 ew0k I'm tired, and pondering.
2020-10-30 20:56:57 ew0k I want to show off geminispace to non-tech friends. And I want people to be able to *participate* without much technical know how. So far I believe that means some sort of POST method needs to be available
2020-10-30 20:57:50 ew0k but that's a slippery slope. What are people going to post? A blog entry? Well then it would be nice if they had a form to fill out, that presents itself the same in every gemini browser. Maybe we need forms?
2020-10-30 20:58:03 khuxkm you can serve text/html on gemini
2020-10-30 20:58:23 ew0k true, but that feels a little... odd
2020-10-30 20:58:29 khuxkm nothing's really *stopping* you from serving PWAs on gemini, they're just a PITA
2020-10-30 20:58:34 khuxkm and that's by design
2020-10-30 20:58:47 khuxkm but what do you need a POST method for?
2020-10-30 20:59:31 ew0k One thing I like and expect from a gemini browser is that it doesn't do shit under the hood that I don't know about, like making a bunch of extra requests for resources like css, images and javascript
2020-10-30 21:00:05 ew0k khuxkm: blogs, wikis, messaging, collaborative writing platforms...
2020-10-30 21:00:58 @tomasino didn't someone make a gemini gemlog via web post service already?
2020-10-30 21:01:27 ew0k tomasino: I'd like to know how, in that case :) I've only seen the titan solution
2020-10-30 21:01:40 ew0k which is a decent compromise, I might add.
2020-10-30 21:02:07 @tomasino it was a specific host someone set up for non-tech peoples
2020-10-30 21:02:17 @tomasino i'm not sure where it is, though. just remembering
2020-10-30 21:02:53 ew0k actually, I've seen people say they have a website for posting, and gemini capsule for reading. Which sounds a little off to me
2020-10-30 21:03:53 ew0k Status code 10 can be used for short posts
2020-10-30 21:03:59 ew0k like tweets
2020-10-30 21:04:37 @tomasino you could hijack postfix and output it to a shell script that reads the contents of an email and uses the from user & subject line to write a new post
2020-10-30 21:04:51 @tomasino i have that working on cosmic for the anonhmmst user
2020-10-30 21:04:57 ew0k yes, but email is not usually encrypted
2020-10-30 21:05:19 @tomasino you could do pgp signed messages to it and extend the process a bit
2020-10-30 21:05:28 ew0k true
2020-10-30 21:05:48 ew0k We're entering the tech-savvy-people territory though :)
2020-10-30 21:06:13 ew0k honestly a really good solution could just be sftp
2020-10-30 21:06:23 @tomasino sftp works
2020-10-30 21:06:31 aravk I've done a lot of stuff with PGP - if anybody has questions feel free to ask
2020-10-30 21:06:39 @tomasino i think email, though unencrypted, could be really nice for a non-tech posting
2020-10-30 21:07:02 aravk sftp does work, yes
2020-10-30 21:07:13 @tomasino you'd have to do some work to ensure it's a plain text email and clean up stuf and filter out junk, etc
2020-10-30 21:07:13 aravk I think e-mail would be a cool way to do this though
2020-10-30 21:07:24 khuxkm isn't there some sort of wiki thing
2020-10-30 21:07:33 aravk subject line could be like [POST <category>] <title>
2020-10-30 21:07:36 khuxkm like, someone made it in the current framework of gemini
2020-10-30 21:07:38 ew0k but for a random user without technical know-how to even install a gemini browser is a big step. Getting some file space somewhere and installing/learning sftp is a BIG step further
2020-10-30 21:08:02 @tomasino /etc/aliases -> anonhmmst: "|/home/anonhmmst/parse_email.py"
2020-10-30 21:08:06 aravk gemini browsers are getting easier and easier to use
2020-10-30 21:08:11 ew0k khuxkm: yeah, but they added a protocol scheme called titan for posting
2020-10-30 21:08:22 aravk and there are also some HTTP->Gemini web services
2020-10-30 21:09:00 aravk ew0k: I personally actually like the fact that this stuff is difficult
2020-10-30 21:09:18 aravk it helps filter out people who weren't going to do work anyways
2020-10-30 21:09:40 khuxkm I think the biggest thing is that the URL is required to be less than 1024 characters
2020-10-30 21:09:43 ew0k khuxkm: basically gemini://foo.bar/baz GETs a file, and titan://foo.bar/baz;token=secret;....something I can't remember... POSTs to it
2020-10-30 21:10:08 aravk how much of a limitation is that?
2020-10-30 21:11:26 @tomasino the argument against a URL to reverse-post is that it just shifts the problem to creating a webpage
2020-10-30 21:11:38 @tomasino this email thing is worth exploring
2020-10-30 21:11:48 ew0k aravk: it does have its charm that it's limited to a small subset of people. But there's definitely a lot of people out there with interesting experiences to share, but lacking the know-how needed to engage in geminispace
2020-10-30 21:12:19 aravk that's an unfortunate truth ew0k
2020-10-30 21:12:23 ew0k aravk: the longer the URL, the less space left for the query string -- which also needs to be URL encoded
2020-10-30 21:12:40 ew0k but there's defnitely space for a few hundred characters
2020-10-30 21:13:01 ★ ew0k is overusing the word 'definitely' today...
2020-10-30 21:13:11 khuxkm omg I just had an idea
2020-10-30 21:13:20 khuxkm it's a *terrible* idea and it's cursed as all hell let out
2020-10-30 21:13:26 ew0k TELL US!
2020-10-30 21:13:35 khuxkm so you GET gemini://example.com/start_post_body
2020-10-30 21:13:42 khuxkm and you get an ID like j2134fa
2020-10-30 21:13:52 ew0k khuxkm: I had this idea earlier today too!
2020-10-30 21:13:59 ew0k and then send the message in chunks
2020-10-30 21:14:07 khuxkm then you gemini://example.com/post?j2134faThis is an example post body
2020-10-30 21:14:17 khuxkm and then when you're done, gemini://example.com/finish_post
2020-10-30 21:14:34 ew0k great minds think alike!
2020-10-30 21:14:38 khuxkm it's possible in the current Gemini framework, but it's cursed and I personally wouldn't touch it with a 79 and a half foot pole
2020-10-30 21:14:39 aravk tomasino: the issue is that any system you make for this (e-mail based posting) would need a generic way to receive e-mails and would require the user to set itup
2020-10-30 21:14:55 ew0k khuxkm: you wanna hear an even worse extension of that idea?
2020-10-30 21:15:00 aravk would you touch it with an 80 foot pole?
2020-10-30 21:15:24 ew0k binary files can be sent that way too. Just base64 encode them
2020-10-30 21:15:34 @tomasino if you set up an alias that runs to a system script then any user anywhere could post. totally open. If you want to keep it limited you could require them to use a "password" as a subject line.
2020-10-30 21:15:40 khuxkm oh my fucking god N O
2020-10-30 21:15:48 aravk no tomasino no passwd in subject
2020-10-30 21:16:03 @tomasino :D it's an easy way to auth!
2020-10-30 21:16:04 aravk subject is generally not encrypted
2020-10-30 21:16:13 @tomasino this is not a secure solution i'm describing
2020-10-30 21:16:14 aravk better would be to sign or encrypt the message itself
2020-10-30 21:16:20 aravk oh okay then sure
2020-10-30 21:16:26 @tomasino it's a doable one
2020-10-30 21:16:35 @tomasino and usable by non-techy people
2020-10-30 21:16:42 aravk sure
2020-10-30 21:16:43 @tomasino if you want you could just leave it open
2020-10-30 21:16:45 ew0k Sooo... I have another idea now...
2020-10-30 21:16:53 aravk but you will need them to post in plain text
2020-10-30 21:17:04 @tomasino all these ideas of pulling posts from the web should pull from gopher instead. just sayin'
2020-10-30 21:17:06 khuxkm make a public blog that publishes based on email address
2020-10-30 21:17:23 @tomasino exactly khuxkm
2020-10-30 21:17:26 khuxkm read my blog at gemini://example.com/tildeteam/khuxkm/
2020-10-30 21:17:28 @tomasino just gotta filter for bad formatting
2020-10-30 21:17:47 @tomasino ooh, smart way of generating the URL too
2020-10-30 21:18:04 aravk security is doable too
2020-10-30 21:18:05 @tomasino khuxkm: you have the know-how and half the code to make this go already
2020-10-30 21:18:08 ew0k say you get gemini://example.com/inbox, and the response is a port number
2020-10-30 21:18:13 khuxkm please don't
2020-10-30 21:18:15 ew0k and you just netcat to it
2020-10-30 21:18:21 khuxkm also I'm pretty sure anonhmmst is broken somehow someway
2020-10-30 21:18:35 @tomasino anonhmmst just didn't like when you faked email headers in posts
2020-10-30 21:18:38 aravk ew0k: would run out of port numbers that way eventually
2020-10-30 21:18:43 @tomasino it worked pretty well otherwise, and gemini is even easier!
2020-10-30 21:18:44 ew0k aravk: true
2020-10-30 21:19:04 @tomasino also i made it so only other tildes can email cosmic
2020-10-30 21:19:17 aravk why don't we make e-mail more anonymous and then make a web based on e-mail
2020-10-30 21:19:24 aravk GET request? e-mail
2020-10-30 21:19:27 aravk POST? e-mail
2020-10-30 21:19:32 aravk everything? e-mail
2020-10-30 21:19:46 aravk (/s)
2020-10-30 21:20:44 @tomasino a gpg encrypted email system could do all this and be truly secure, but with the gatekeeping of gpg on top. I do think you could make a reasonable functioning one with bullshit security and actually get some users thanks to gemini's low public profile
2020-10-30 21:21:42 aravk I would rather have a gatekeeped system
2020-10-30 21:22:00 aravk it also helps to cut down on the number of non-users using the system
2020-10-30 21:22:43 aravk although yes sure some definitely wanted users would be cut out I think it's better to have some but not all good stuff rather than be flooded by the bad
2020-10-30 21:23:06 ew0k bedtime for me. More on this some other day :D I'm sure I'll have more stupid ideas
2020-10-30 21:23:22 khuxkm anyways, if someone would be willing to give me hosting space I'd be willing to try the blog-by-email thing
2020-10-30 21:23:30 khuxkm but honestly I'd rather not
2020-10-30 21:23:35 khuxkm I'm off to dinner now
2020-10-30 21:23:46 khuxkm I'll be back later with more weird and dumb ideas
2020-10-30 21:24:13 khuxkm also I already have my server project I need to get off the ground
2020-10-30 21:28:27 jcowan Tne main thing I miss in text/gemini is *emphasis*, but hey, I'll write asterisks and perhaps someone some day will turn them into italics.
2020-10-30 21:30:03 @tomasino not bold?
2020-10-30 21:33:39 kiedtl or underline/strikethrough? :)
2020-10-30 21:36:01 @tomasino thunderbird does a very nice thing that's been a plain text styling pattern for a while where the characters continue to be shown but the styling is also applied. /italic/ *bold* _underline_
2020-10-30 21:36:20 @tomasino so if the formatting applied incorrectly, you still see the character that created it and don't get confused
2020-10-30 21:37:45 @tomasino mail.display_struct = true handles that internally
2020-10-30 21:42:02 @tomasino https://ttm.sh/hxe.png - example
2020-10-30 21:43:22 @tomasino https://ttm.sh/hxi.png - dark theme example
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2020-10-30 22:36:36 jcowan tomasino: In Markdown, which seems to be the most common type, they mean italics, and **bold** is bold.
2020-10-30 22:36:50 jcowan IMO bold is a page layout feature and much less important than italics.
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2020-10-30 22:39:57 @tomasino markdown is alone in their choice of markup though
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2020-10-30 22:40:00 @tomasino that's why i get confused
2020-10-30 22:40:09 @tomasino **bold** isn't a thing elsewhere. it's just *bold*
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2020-10-30 22:53:11 aravk or you know just use any of them as they all clearly indicate some emphasis
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2020-10-30 23:00:06 @tomasino all of them
2020-10-30 23:06:21 acdw hey yall
2020-10-30 23:06:24 acdw still talking about gemini
2020-10-30 23:06:26 acdw ?
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2020-10-30 23:24:00 Elon_Satoshi Hello! TheLounge seems neet
2020-10-30 23:24:03 Elon_Satoshi neat*
2020-10-30 23:24:39 acdw I use it all the time at work
2020-10-30 23:26:44 boringcactus yeah shout out to thelounge
2020-10-30 23:30:57 Elon_Satoshi Which gemini clients are most up to date?
2020-10-30 23:31:20 Elon_Satoshi Alternatively, what are the neatest terminal based ones?
2020-10-30 23:31:28 acdw i'm gonna say bollux, but i wrote it :P
2020-10-30 23:31:46 acdw realistically, bombadillo or makeworld's one, amfora
2020-10-30 23:32:05 acdw unless you like comand-line style interfaces, that'd be av98 or .. diohsc maybe
2020-10-30 23:35:34 Elon_Satoshi Agregore sounds pretty cool
2020-10-30 23:35:47 acdw i haven't heard of that one
2020-10-30 23:36:10 Elon_Satoshi https://github.com/AgregoreWeb/agregore-browser
2020-10-30 23:36:29 Elon_Satoshi It's a distributed web browser, so it supports ipfs and the dat protocol too
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2020-10-30 23:37:20 acdw oh neat -- and it's pretty slick. But does it do gemini?
2020-10-30 23:37:35 d3fragg3d so, I am not having that much luck finding good content on gemini yet as of just browsing content from the search engine. are there any good sites I can use as news / content hubs?
2020-10-30 23:37:44 Elon_Satoshi Yes, it's listed in gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/software/
2020-10-30 23:38:19 acdw huh
2020-10-30 23:38:31 acdw d3fragg3d: gemini.circumlunar.space/capcom
2020-10-30 23:38:47 acdw gemini://rawtext.club/~sloum/spacewalk.gmi
2020-10-30 23:39:12 acdw well neat Elon_Satoshi!
2020-10-30 23:40:04 d3fragg3d thanks I'll have a read
2020-10-30 23:43:57 khuxkm i'm back
2020-10-30 23:44:01 zephryn o/
2020-10-30 23:44:27 khuxkm I just read scrollback and I kinda like ew0k's idea of port numbers
2020-10-30 23:44:51 khuxkm you don't exactly need the port to stay open per se, you just need the port to work for the time being
2020-10-30 23:45:19 khuxkm that being said, as with other POST suggestions, it is still 100% cursed and a complete perversion of everything the protocol stands for
2020-10-30 23:51:28 acdw hi khuxkm
2020-10-30 23:51:36 acdw wait what is the port #
2020-10-30 23:51:47 acdw i suppose i shoul check logs
2020-10-30 23:52:00 acdw do you know the time it was at? so i can look at it
2020-10-30 23:54:42 makeworld Elon_Satoshi: Mine is the best ofc ;)
2020-10-30 23:55:02 acdw bah nvm
2020-10-30 23:55:06 acdw email i lik ethat
2020-10-31 00:00:41 Elon_Satoshi I'll try amfora out too! Feature rich? That's got my attention
2020-10-31 00:00:53 acdw makeworld worked really hard on amfora
2020-10-31 00:00:57 acdw it's pretty dope
2020-10-31 00:01:05 acdw i actually need to install it on my little lappy
2020-10-31 00:01:10 zephryn makeworld makes a lot of great gem stuff
2020-10-31 00:02:52 acdw makeworld: where's your main repo again?
2020-10-31 00:03:04 acdw also nice job packaging amfora for void :)
2020-10-31 00:03:20 Elon_Satoshi Aww, no cross platform package like flatpak to keep it up to date without using arch?
2020-10-31 00:03:35 Elon_Satoshi I installed av98 with pip
2020-10-31 00:03:51 acdw haha
2020-10-31 00:04:12 Elon_Satoshi Well, I guess I'll move the binary to /usr/local/bin
2020-10-31 00:04:19 Elon_Satoshi That seems simple enough.
2020-10-31 00:04:39 acdw i started installing software to ~/.local/bin (PREFIX=~/.local) and it changed my life
2020-10-31 00:04:43 makeworld Aww thanks guys
2020-10-31 00:04:52 makeworld Repo is https://github.com/makeworld-the-better-one/amfora
2020-10-31 00:05:12 acdw i keep meaning to do a base install only and install everything else in ~
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2020-10-31 00:05:14 makeworld acdw: I didn't pkg for Void lol, nice to hear that it is though!
2020-10-31 00:05:17 acdw with git repos and stuff
2020-10-31 00:05:20 acdw makeworld: lol
2020-10-31 00:05:25 acdw and thanks for the link!
2020-10-31 00:05:27 makeworld I've been putting some stuff in ~/bin myself
2020-10-31 00:05:30 makeworld Welcome!
2020-10-31 00:05:43 acdw I like ~/bin for scripts I write myself, so they're easy to get to
2020-10-31 00:06:00 acdw and ~/.local/bin for makefile'd stuff
2020-10-31 00:06:09 makeworld Yeah. I put all my personally compiled software there. ~/.local/bin has stuff that some script installed there, pretty much all just from pip --user
2020-10-31 00:06:13 makeworld Ah ok
2020-10-31 00:06:16 acdw yes!
2020-10-31 00:06:20 acdw oh
2020-10-31 00:06:21 acdw lol
2020-10-31 00:08:25 makeworld I originally logged on to say that I'm disapointed hashes weren't built into Gemini
2020-10-31 00:08:46 makeworld I don't really support the MIME type hack methods being proposed on the ML, but I think the overall idea is correct and good
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2020-10-31 00:14:37 kiedtl "hashes"? I guess you mean anchors? or did I miss something?
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2020-10-31 00:18:16 boringcactus MD5 etc hashes
2020-10-31 00:18:39 boringcactus to solve the problem of "did i get all the content the server wanted to send or not"
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2020-10-31 00:20:20 makeworld I mean cryptographic hashes, like SHA-256
2020-10-31 00:20:28 makeworld Not really to solve that boringcactus
2020-10-31 00:20:32 makeworld I mean to verify your download
2020-10-31 00:20:36 makeworld Or to replicate content
2020-10-31 00:21:12 boringcactus i mean that's a subset of verifying
2020-10-31 00:21:16 boringcactus er.
2020-10-31 00:21:21 boringcactus that as in content length
2020-10-31 00:22:03 makeworld I guess
2020-10-31 00:23:37 kiedtl Oh I see
2020-10-31 00:33:17 khuxkm >I don't really support the MIME type hack methods being proposed on the ML, but I think the overall idea is correct and good
2020-10-31 00:33:45 khuxkm well with the spec freeze in effect (at least, from what I read the spec freeze is in effect), we kinda have to resort to hacks until we get something more
2020-10-31 00:39:03 makeworld Yes, but I'd rather Gemini not have the feature than become a hacky protocol defined by users and not by the spec
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2020-10-31 01:06:00 khuxkm i mean, all protocols are in practice defined by their users
2020-10-31 01:06:21 khuxkm if everybody starts doing something, it'll become common enough practice that it becomes /de facto/ spec
2020-10-31 01:06:32 khuxkm even if it's not /de jure/
2020-10-31 01:06:56 khuxkm and on the other end, if something is written in the spec and enough people ignore it, is it even a part of the spec?
2020-10-31 01:07:17 khuxkm err, a part of the protocol, rather?
2020-10-31 01:10:06 login ie6 had a frozen implementation of the spec
2020-10-31 01:10:16 login there were hacks for getting pngs to display with transparency etc.
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2020-10-31 01:50:58 makeworld khuxkm: It's nicer to have everyone just stick to the spec, especially for Gemini
2020-10-31 01:51:13 makeworld People doing their own thing is how the Web became bloated and complicated
2020-10-31 01:52:35 makeworld De facto standards is very against the Gemini ethos imo
2020-10-31 01:55:10 acdw i agree
2020-10-31 01:55:22 acdw i also think the ethos of gemini is radical simplicity.
2020-10-31 01:55:43 acdw like it's a document exchnage format. stuff like astrobotany is cool but it's pushing that pretty far imo
2020-10-31 01:56:01 acdw anything past that is i think better suited to theweb
2020-10-31 01:56:30 acdw i tihnk it's much more viable to have a "web but the good parts" if you want stuff like applications or streams or whatev
2020-10-31 01:56:49 zephryn that's true, yeah
2020-10-31 01:57:29 jcowan If I ever get any cycles, I really will work on Dioscuri. Because it's a separate and entirely optional protocol, it doesn't complicate Gemini; because it's almost Gemini, it's easy to adapt existing code
2020-10-31 01:57:38 acdw i mean, that's just me ... i just know that i don't use any of the really intense stuff on the web
2020-10-31 01:57:59 acdw jcowan: have a link for dioscuri? I remenber it on the ML a while bacck..
2020-10-31 01:58:15 jcowan Not yet, that would be the first step. Tl;dr version:
2020-10-31 01:59:40 jcowan the request line passes a whitespace-separated MIME type followed by the actual data; the response is 100% like Gemini except for a new reponse type 70, whose META is a URL where the result is.
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2020-10-31 02:00:13 jcowan so the request is <url><whitespace><mime-type><CR><LF>.
2020-10-31 02:02:38 makeworld acdw: Definitely agree
2020-10-31 02:03:43 makeworld For server side applications on the web I find htmx to be a nice respectful way to do things
2020-10-31 02:03:46 makeworld With HTTP/2
2020-10-31 02:04:00 makeworld https://htmx.org/
2020-10-31 02:10:49 acdw jcowan: so dioscuri is a push protocol? neat
2020-10-31 02:10:59 acdw i've heard of htmx
2020-10-31 02:11:29 acdw oh that's kind of neat -- why http/2 only?
2020-10-31 02:12:09 khuxkm I held my tongue earlier because I didn't know exactly how to phrase it in a good way but I think I see where the split is
2020-10-31 02:12:25 khuxkm I'm of the opinion that /de facto/ standards happen whether you intend for them to or not
2020-10-31 02:12:42 khuxkm or even whether they're compatible with a project's ethos or not
2020-10-31 02:13:00 khuxkm people are going to find a way to do the thing they want to do
2020-10-31 02:13:27 khuxkm even if involves, say, creating an entire other protocol just to do it
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2020-10-31 02:14:06 acdw yes ndeed----thats where gemini comes from even
2020-10-31 02:14:34 acdw my thing is --- i'm fine with seeing what people can do, as long as corporations don't come in and ;muck it up
2020-10-31 02:14:55 acdw so as long as we don't get too close the web i think we're ulitmately oka
2020-10-31 02:23:20 zephryn i think de-facto standards can be cool until they become the web where you have a few browsers that can even inplement them
2020-10-31 02:24:24 acdw BUT! did the web ever have a lot of browsers, really?
2020-10-31 02:24:32 acdw like i think they had maybe 5,6?
2020-10-31 02:24:40 acdw at one time?
2020-10-31 02:24:47 acdw an gemini now has .. at least 20
2020-10-31 02:25:20 acdw so ... that's actually a good thing --- there's pressure *against* too much messing around, since who knows what clients will pick it up
2020-10-31 02:25:58 acdw so the de facto stays fairly stable
2020-10-31 02:26:02 zephryn exactly, yeah
2020-10-31 02:26:16 zephryn things are kept in order from having more options
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2020-10-31 02:27:08 khuxkm I still think de facto standards can happen in Gemini, just in more... limited cases
2020-10-31 02:27:15 acdw right right!
2020-10-31 02:28:00 khuxkm for instance if I have a crawler that implements certain semantics only when it recieves, say, a 45 response, then anybody who wants my crawler to do those semantics will need to return a 45 response where they want it to happen
2020-10-31 02:28:06 khuxkm even though there's no 45 response in spec
2020-10-31 02:28:14 acdw right, but that's just the one crawler
2020-10-31 02:28:23 acdw it'd have to be a pretty cool thing for people to care
2020-10-31 02:28:30 khuxkm exactly
2020-10-31 02:28:40 khuxkm if the crawler's popular enough to get people to care, they'll need to do it or tough luck
2020-10-31 02:29:10 khuxkm basically any Gemini /de facto/ standard will have to be something that can interoperate with spec
2020-10-31 02:29:17 zephryn and i suppose you're right, there never were many browsers at once time to choose from (outside of cli programs, at least)
2020-10-31 02:29:26 khuxkm for instance, spec doesn't actually say you can't return, say, a 99 code
2020-10-31 02:29:45 khuxkm it doesn't say what a 99 code means, sure, but there's nothing against doing that
2020-10-31 02:30:01 khuxkm however, most clients would probably break/get confused on a 99 code so you wouldn't do that
2020-10-31 02:30:04 boringcactus yeah, if somebody did "the second line of the response is actually `Content-Length: 694201337`" then that'd break everything and we can't just do that
2020-10-31 02:30:33 boringcactus which is one of the reasons the mailing list has seen some suggestion of using MIME type parameters
2020-10-31 02:30:47 khuxkm but something like `20 text/plain;charset=utf-8;size=100231235` doesn't violate the spec
2020-10-31 02:30:47 boringcactus in principle, it won't break anything
2020-10-31 02:30:50 khuxkm that's a mime type
2020-10-31 02:30:53 khuxkm yeah
2020-10-31 02:31:18 boringcactus it breaks the idea that the mime type does mime type things, but it doesn't break existing clients
2020-10-31 02:31:29 khuxkm but, for instance, say I want to implement the semantics of "I have access to this resource but I won't give it to you, even if you cert up"
2020-10-31 02:32:19 khuxkm I could technically do `45 Resource unavailable` but that ends up in a gray area of "what does the spec say about doing that", so I end up going for `40 Resource unavailable` instead since 40 is just a generic, temporary error
2020-10-31 02:32:39 acdw you *could* make the first line a content-length, but most clients would just ... display it
2020-10-31 02:32:50 khuxkm and the contents of <META> are to be shown as an error message on a 40 response
2020-10-31 02:32:56 acdw and you *could* include a size in the mimetype but most clients will ignore it
2020-10-31 02:37:38 boringcactus the distinction there is important though
2020-10-31 02:37:44 boringcactus displaying the wrong thing is bad
2020-10-31 02:37:53 boringcactus ignoring extra stuff is fien
2020-10-31 02:38:00 boringcactus *fine
2020-10-31 02:38:11 acdw i mean, it's bad inasmuch as people will be annoyed and not visit your capsule any more
2020-10-31 02:50:09 khuxkm hmm
2020-10-31 02:50:22 khuxkm AV-98 errors when I try to use my self-signed cert >:(
2020-10-31 02:50:34 khuxkm ERROR: 'IPv4Address' object has no attribute 'count'
2020-10-31 02:51:41 acdw uh idk what that means
2020-10-31 02:51:46 acdw that's a weird pythong error
2020-10-31 02:52:52 khuxkm hmmst
2020-10-31 02:53:09 acdw *nod*
2020-10-31 02:53:15 acdw why isn't there a nod emoji
2020-10-31 02:53:16 acdw hmmm
2020-10-31 02:53:45 khuxkm so basically it's trying to take a count of how many wildcards are in a SAN entry
2020-10-31 02:53:57 acdw oh hm
2020-10-31 02:54:02 acdw how many do you have?
2020-10-31 02:54:04 khuxkm ...except my SAN for my self-signed cert includes an IP entry
2020-10-31 02:54:10 khuxkm no wildcards
2020-10-31 02:54:33 acdw hmmm
2020-10-31 02:54:36 khuxkm but it's trying to do .count("*") on an IPv4Address object
2020-10-31 02:54:44 khuxkm which, needless to say, is something it can't do
2020-10-31 02:54:45 acdw OH
2020-10-31 02:54:55 acdw maybe use 'localhost' insetad?
2020-10-31 02:55:37 khuxkm ...except, actually, this is apparently an issue in Python's ssl lib?
2020-10-31 02:55:55 acdw oh no
2020-10-31 02:56:03 acdw that's deep magic :p
2020-10-31 02:57:35 khuxkm alright, apparently I've managed to now sidestep that issue into another issue entirely
2020-10-31 02:57:49 acdw oh no
2020-10-31 02:57:53 acdw what's up now?
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2020-10-31 02:58:39 khuxkm apparently my header breaks spec
2020-10-31 02:59:34 khuxkm ...and now that I've added code to debug why my header apparently breaks spec the first bug is back
2020-10-31 03:00:13 acdw uh oh! what's the header?
2020-10-31 03:00:50 khuxkm `20 text/markdown\r\n`
2020-10-31 03:00:57 khuxkm or at least that's what it *should* send
2020-10-31 03:03:44 khuxkm ...apparently it's sending... nothing?
2020-10-31 03:06:04 khuxkm there we go
2020-10-31 03:06:10 khuxkm forgot to flush the write buffer
2020-10-31 03:06:48 acdw oh ah ! good
2020-10-31 03:06:51 acdw glad you got it
2020-10-31 03:12:17 makeworld > oh that's kind of neat -- why http/2 only?
2020-10-31 03:12:43 makeworld acdw: I didn't mean only. I just learned about HTTP/2 a bit ago and think it's cool
2020-10-31 03:13:02 acdw oh okay cool :)
2020-10-31 03:13:06 zephryn what do you think of http/3?
2020-10-31 03:13:19 acdw i was looking at httpx and like, Why would this only work on http/2?
2020-10-31 03:13:28 acdw hell why not http/4 or /5 :P
2020-10-31 03:14:15 zephryn introducing: http/6
2020-10-31 03:14:52 khuxkm http/10
2020-10-31 03:14:59 khuxkm because fuck https 3-9
2020-10-31 03:16:58 acdw yes!
2020-10-31 03:17:03 acdw like 6G internet
2020-10-31 03:17:22 zephryn the version numbers never end, do they...
2020-10-31 03:17:56 acdw nope :P
2020-10-31 03:18:01 acdw wish they would, tbh
2020-10-31 03:20:26 jcowan acdw: It's a POST protocol. Client sends an entity-body to the server and gets either an entity body or an URL that points to it in return.
2020-10-31 03:20:55 acdw jcowan: dioscuri?
2020-10-31 03:21:07 acdw yes
2020-10-31 03:21:10 acdw sorry been a minute
2020-10-31 03:21:19 acdw i kinda like how simple thta is
2020-10-31 03:22:01 khuxkm anyone on tilde.team with a browser that isn't AV-98 want to help me with a test
2020-10-31 03:22:11 makeworld zephryn: HTTP/3 seems like a large change for a tiny occasional speed increase. But I want to see proper testing in simulated bad networks, like with x% package loss
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2020-10-31 03:26:10 acdw khu
2020-10-31 03:26:15 acdw khuxkm: give me a second and sure
2020-10-31 03:26:42 acdw you need me to sign on to tilde.team?
2020-10-31 03:26:46 acdw or use it from my computer?
2020-10-31 03:30:13 khuxkm acdw: sign into tilde.team and try to access gemini://7f000001.nip.io:65534
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2020-10-31 03:30:18 khuxkm thanks in advance
2020-10-31 03:30:30 khuxkm you should get back a markdown document just containing `# sup`
2020-10-31 03:30:41 Seirdy anybody try gemini over i2p?
2020-10-31 03:31:23 Seirdy given that gemini pages tend to be small and don't demand a high-speed connection, it seems like i2p would be a good fit.
2020-10-31 03:31:41 acdw idk what i2p is
2020-10-31 03:32:24 jcowan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I2P
2020-10-31 03:32:31 Seirdy acdw: it's like tor but every user is a relay, and there are no clearnet exit nodes. it supports any protocol, not just HTTP; p2p/torrenting is a common use-case
2020-10-31 03:32:32 jcowan it's a peer-to-peer protocol
2020-10-31 03:33:10 acdw khuxkm: i get a sup
2020-10-31 03:33:15 acdw in bollux
2020-10-31 03:33:28 acdw oh that sounds wild Seirdy
2020-10-31 03:33:39 Seirdy gemini eepsites (i2p equiv of onions) sound like a really good idea
2020-10-31 03:33:42 acdw sounds really cool, i bet you could do i2p yeah
2020-10-31 03:33:51 khuxkm acdw: nice
2020-10-31 03:34:04 acdw what's that host khuxkm?
2020-10-31 03:36:42 makeworld I2P is cool
2020-10-31 03:36:48 makeworld Never tried with Gemini though
2020-10-31 03:36:49 khuxkm *.nip.io basically is A record to any IP
2020-10-31 03:36:56 khuxkm https://nip.io
2020-10-31 03:37:02 acdw what
2020-10-31 03:37:04 acdw that's cool
2020-10-31 03:37:11 acdw why not just 127.0.0.1 or whatev?
2020-10-31 03:37:38 khuxkm because I felt like using a domain
2020-10-31 03:37:57 khuxkm also because apparently Python 3.8's ssl lib can't handle IP entries in the SAN
2020-10-31 03:38:05 acdw fair enough :)
2020-10-31 03:38:08 acdw oh right
2020-10-31 03:38:21 khuxkm also this is BS, I can't even sign up for an account on bugs.python.org to file the bug
2020-10-31 03:38:38 acdw oh shit huh
2020-10-31 03:38:42 acdw whaaaaaa
2020-10-31 03:38:46 acdw python--
2020-10-31 03:38:48 Seirdy mailing lists
2020-10-31 03:38:50 acdw :P
2020-10-31 03:38:59 Seirdy imagine having to sign up for an account to file a bug
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2020-10-31 03:39:08 zephryn github moment
2020-10-31 03:39:23 acdw haha
2020-10-31 03:39:49 khuxkm I tried to sign in with my GitHub but it went "i couldn't get your email from your profile" even though I don't have my profile set to hide my email
2020-10-31 03:40:01 acdw :(
2020-10-31 03:40:03 acdw ooof
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2020-10-31 03:46:26 khuxkm actually rereading the AV98 source it's cheating and I need to bug solderpunk about the hacky shit it's doing
2020-10-31 03:52:10 praetorian Is gemini://gus.guru/ the best place to browse gemini hosts? Seems like the newest sites are from the end of September.
2020-10-31 03:57:36 epoch > it supports any protocol, not just HTTP;
2020-10-31 03:57:57 epoch tor does any tcp protocol
2020-10-31 04:10:14 khuxkm https://tildegit.org/solderpunk/AV-98/issues/28 anyways I filed a bug report with AV-98
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2020-10-31 04:35:12 makeworld praetorian: Pretty much yeah. GUS is currently updating, it hasn't in a while
2020-10-31 04:35:40 makeworld Nat should make a cron job for it tbh
2020-10-31 04:35:51 makeworld K gn y'all
2020-10-31 04:36:01 praetorian Ah, I see. Thanks
2020-10-31 04:36:32 khuxkm I'm wondering how I should handle CGI in Big Tiddy Gemini Server
2020-10-31 04:36:41 khuxkm should I just let anything be +x and run it based on shebang?
2020-10-31 04:36:49 khuxkm or is that bad practice
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2020-10-31 05:40:13 ew0k khuxkm: did you see the julia-server posted about on the website? Does it implement the chunk-wise send we discussed last night or am I confused??
2020-10-31 05:42:49 ew0k s/website/mailing list/
2020-10-31 05:44:40 khuxkm kinda?
2020-10-31 05:44:52 khuxkm it uses client certificates instead of a by-post-body ID
2020-10-31 06:00:32 ew0k Still, though :) kinnda funny
2020-10-31 06:47:04 khuxkm https://github.com/MineRobber9000/btgs so I got the first draft of the code down
2020-10-31 06:47:42 khuxkm none of it's really documented all that well *but* I'm gonna document it later, hopefully after I've gotten some sleep (whenever I'll be tired enough to sleep that is)
2020-10-31 06:59:49 Dr-WaSabi no kidding on the sleep part
2020-10-31 07:11:22 ★ Dr-WaSabi checks out khuxkm's btgs repo
2020-10-31 07:39:52 khuxkm i just had a bad idea: a text adventure game implemented entirely within Gemini using `10` responses
2020-10-31 07:43:11 Dr-WaSabi :D
2020-10-31 07:43:27 Dr-WaSabi that might be really cool
2020-10-31 07:44:33 ★ Dr-WaSabi ponders this some more
2020-10-31 07:47:12 Dr-WaSabi khuxkm: a Gemini server doesn't know much about the differnt connections it's serving to.. would that be correct?
2020-10-31 07:49:41 khuxkm not really
2020-10-31 07:49:54 khuxkm though you could use client certificate fingerprinting to store a sort of session key
2020-10-31 07:50:29 khuxkm that would, of course, require me to implement client certificate fingerprinting in Big Tiddy Gemini Server, which I think will come with the CGI support
2020-10-31 07:52:56 Dr-WaSabi I was just wondering if you wrote a program that dynamicly generated the text/gemini files that the differnt connected glients would be given. if you did have some idea of sessions, then said program might be able to create gemini files that people could work together
2020-10-31 07:53:32 Dr-WaSabi glients? did I just invent a new word?
2020-10-31 07:54:55 ★ Dr-WaSabi needs more coffee
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2020-10-31 11:17:05 nixo is there any standard for gemini long polling?
2020-10-31 11:17:37 nixo Is it fine to keep a client waiting until new content appears?
2020-10-31 11:44:49 kiedtl glients. love that name.
2020-10-31 11:45:10 Dr-WaSabi :D
2020-10-31 11:45:29 @tomasino oooh, coffee is a good idea
2020-10-31 11:45:46 Dr-WaSabi 👍👍
2020-10-31 11:47:42 Dr-WaSabi so if a Gemini server could track clients, would that be something against the basic ideales of protocal?
2020-10-31 11:49:30 kiedtl pretty much, i think
2020-10-31 11:49:49 Dr-WaSabi kind of what I was thinking as well
2020-10-31 11:51:07 Dr-WaSabi trying to think up a way to run a gemini text adventure game
2020-10-31 11:57:21 @tomasino with or without state management?
2020-10-31 11:57:28 @tomasino a choose your own adventure is easier
2020-10-31 11:57:35 @tomasino go to page 7 is always go to page 7
2020-10-31 11:57:55 @tomasino you could always do the 'if you collected the blue key, click here"
2020-10-31 11:58:01 ★ Dr-WaSabi facepalms
2020-10-31 11:58:06 Dr-WaSabi what a simple idea
2020-10-31 11:58:22 @tomasino :D
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2020-10-31 14:32:49 nixo Dr-WaSabi: for gemini://nixo.xyz I'm using Client certificates for that. User choose to be recognized or not just by changing/disabling user certificate for the website
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2020-10-31 15:04:55 Dr-WaSabi interesting... so it might work...
2020-10-31 15:08:02 acdw Dr-WaSabi: I have a choose your own adventure game up
2020-10-31 15:08:28 acdw gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/users/acdw/vault-guard/
2020-10-31 15:08:37 acdw with ascii art
2020-10-31 15:08:54 acdw also there is a text adventure in gopher, so i'm sure gemini would be possible
2020-10-31 15:10:57 makeworld Yeah you can just have static pages and no state, so different pages just link to each other
2020-10-31 15:11:05 makeworld But you could do state with client certz
2020-10-31 15:11:13 acdw dope certx
2020-10-31 15:11:15 acdw certz
2020-10-31 15:11:20 makeworld Certzzzz
2020-10-31 15:11:26 acdw aw my coffee is cold :(
2020-10-31 15:11:31 alex11 rip
2020-10-31 15:12:49 acdw in PIECES
2020-10-31 15:15:50 Dr-WaSabi nixo does have the idea of using client certs, which would allow for state and session tracking. just the client decides
2020-10-31 15:15:57 Dr-WaSabi which would be really cool
2020-10-31 15:19:19 nixo Dr-WaSabi: do you already have something in mind? Like a general idea on the story
2020-10-31 15:19:53 nixo I might help
2020-10-31 15:20:11 Dr-WaSabi no, not really, maybe zork like... but with a group of friends
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2020-10-31 16:27:41 kevinsan acdw: your adventure is ace! good writing style, i honestly enjoyed it, short as it was.
2020-10-31 16:28:02 acdw kevinsan: thanks!!!
2020-10-31 16:28:08 acdw I was pretty proud of it
2020-10-31 16:28:19 acdw i should try another at some point
2020-10-31 16:28:21 acdw maybe in december
2020-10-31 16:29:59 kevinsan you could have locations as 'goals', which would allow you more free reign in your narrative
2020-10-31 16:30:42 kevinsan (e.g. less need to for consequences, and all the combinatorial working out that it entails)
2020-10-31 16:30:53 acdw oh .. wait explain more, this sounds interesting
2020-10-31 16:31:39 kevinsan well, simply finding a location (or object in the location) would be one of the objectives.
2020-10-31 16:32:03 kevinsan you collect things on your quest, on your journey to winning or losing.
2020-10-31 16:32:27 kevinsan so it's not entirely win or lose, but a measure of progress through your map.
2020-10-31 16:33:24 acdw oh neat
2020-10-31 16:33:36 acdw that might take server-side logic tho eh? not just flat pages
2020-10-31 16:34:10 kevinsan i don't see why, since it's just the right sequence of locations that allows you to reach a 'find'
2020-10-31 16:39:10 kevinsan and 'checkpoints' could be reached where a location has one entry and one exit - only the next chapter of the story perhaps.
2020-10-31 16:39:22 acdw oh okay... i'll have to think about it
2020-10-31 16:40:23 felix The structure of CYOA games has been well studied.
2020-10-31 16:40:37 acdw oh rly? have a link?
2020-10-31 16:40:42 felix One moment.
2020-10-31 16:40:55 @tomasino oooh
2020-10-31 16:40:59 @tomasino cyoa science!
2020-10-31 16:41:09 @tomasino i miss my radio show. :'(
2020-10-31 16:42:10 felix http://maga-dogg.livejournal.com/tag/cyoa
2020-10-31 16:42:15 felix Aw.
2020-10-31 16:42:51 acdw ty felix!
2020-10-31 16:43:03 acdw aw tomasino: I thought you had tilderadio?
2020-10-31 16:43:30 @tomasino i do a trivia show on there now, and do sci-fi radio twice a week and ten forward on mondays, but my old show was called Choose Your Own Adventure
2020-10-31 16:43:35 @tomasino it was awesome
2020-10-31 16:43:52 @tomasino gopher://gopher.black/1/cyoa
2020-10-31 16:44:13 acdw oh dang
2020-10-31 16:44:15 acdw that does sound cool
2020-10-31 16:44:48 @tomasino but netflix ruined it
2020-10-31 16:44:51 acdw aw :(
2020-10-31 16:44:55 acdw why
2020-10-31 16:45:02 @tomasino they aired that episode of black mirror, Bandersnatch
2020-10-31 16:45:18 @tomasino they didn't get permission from ChooseCo to use Choose Your Own Adventure
2020-10-31 16:45:20 acdw OH
2020-10-31 16:45:26 @tomasino so ChooseCo sued them
2020-10-31 16:45:28 acdw so you knew it was illegal to use
2020-10-31 16:45:42 acdw just do what Ryan North did --- "Choosable-Path Adventure"
2020-10-31 16:45:43 @tomasino oh yeah, i def did, but chooseco didn't care about little shits like me
2020-10-31 16:45:55 acdw oh did you get a takedown?!
2020-10-31 16:46:10 @tomasino but once they were suing Netflix they had to show they defend their copyright, so they sent a very nice takedown letter my way
2020-10-31 16:46:19 @tomasino they were super apologetic
2020-10-31 16:46:26 acdw dang
2020-10-31 16:46:28 felix They did care about a few poor kids who had games on Itch.
2020-10-31 16:46:33 acdw at least they were apologetic?!
2020-10-31 16:47:12 @tomasino my stuff didn't generate revenue, so its like just a fan thing in their heads
2020-10-31 16:47:14 @tomasino they like it
2020-10-31 16:47:33 @tomasino but once you're going after netflix for 25 million... gotta do what you gotta do
2020-10-31 16:47:38 felix But they "have to defend their trademark". Sure.
2020-10-31 16:47:45 felix That's a choice.
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2020-10-31 16:48:04 @tomasino no, it's part of a civil suit that comes up in trademark disputes a lot
2020-10-31 16:48:15 @tomasino i learned about it in grad school in my course on trademark and copyright law and media
2020-10-31 16:48:19 acdw mm
2020-10-31 16:48:24 acdw yeah it's legit
2020-10-31 16:48:37 @tomasino chooseco is in the right here. it's their property and i was dancing on it
2020-10-31 16:48:39 acdw not that i add any ethos to tomasino's already valid ethos
2020-10-31 16:49:12 @tomasino and i could justify restarting a similar show under a different name, but i was also reading their books mostly. The knock-off ones aren't as fun
2020-10-31 16:49:18 acdw ah
2020-10-31 16:49:20 felix They wouldn't have a "property" if enthusiasts hadn't kept the genre alive. For free.
2020-10-31 16:49:25 @tomasino and free interactive fiction isn't great for short radio shows either
2020-10-31 16:49:37 acdw well,,, that's the market felix. it's bigger than allof us
2020-10-31 16:49:49 felix It's also *made by us*.
2020-10-31 16:49:55 felix Supposedly *for* us.
2020-10-31 16:50:17 @tomasino if you want to jump into the genre it's wide open as long as you don't use that exact phrase "Choose Your Own Adventure"
2020-10-31 16:50:41 felix Yes, indeed. And every day we have to dance around yet more phrasings.
2020-10-31 16:50:59 acdw felix: it wasn't made by me. and there's not a lot i can do to change it.
2020-10-31 16:51:08 acdw like, no one to vote for questions the IP system
2020-10-31 16:51:08 acdw so
2020-10-31 16:51:09 @tomasino copyright lasts far too long and should be "fixed"
2020-10-31 16:51:10 @tomasino indeed
2020-10-31 16:51:12 acdw like, what do i od
2020-10-31 16:51:22 acdw i could *run*, but I don't have the time and I wouldn't be good at it
2020-10-31 16:51:39 acdw I could just pirate stuff or ignroe the law, but then I'd go to jail or be whacked with a huge fine
2020-10-31 16:51:42 acdw like,,,, i can't pay that
2020-10-31 16:51:49 acdw so it is what it is
2020-10-31 16:51:56 @tomasino eh, just wait for capitalism to eat itself
2020-10-31 16:52:04 acdw I whinge about it and I'll agree with people who also hate it,,,,, but
2020-10-31 16:52:10 acdw that's all i ca ndo , realistically
2020-10-31 16:52:21 acdw i'm so small, the others are soooo big, RIAA e.g.
2020-10-31 16:52:26 acdw tomasino: yep lol
2020-10-31 16:52:33 @tomasino and donate to EFF
2020-10-31 16:53:39 acdw & that ype
2020-10-31 16:55:01 @tomasino i hunger
2020-10-31 16:55:07 acdw eat! eat!
2020-10-31 16:55:08 boringcactus more like crapitalism amirite
2020-10-31 16:55:09 ★ tomasino goes in search of food in the wild
2020-10-31 16:55:13 acdw ur too thin!
2020-10-31 16:55:14 boringcactus -carl marks
2020-10-31 16:55:18 acdw boringcactus: lol yes
2020-10-31 16:55:20 acdw lolol
2020-10-31 16:55:29 acdw tht is so funny
2020-10-31 16:55:34 acdw i'mma toot that
2020-10-31 16:55:50 acdw want me to mention you?
2020-10-31 16:56:46 kiedtl i guess not
2020-10-31 16:56:53 jan6 this is SUCH an active channel
2020-10-31 16:56:54 jan6 lol
2020-10-31 16:57:14 acdw jan6: ye?
2020-10-31 16:57:15 acdw no?
2020-10-31 16:57:15 acdw idk
2020-10-31 16:57:19 kiedtl Not as active, ever since our Dear Little Friend was so unfortunately banned
2020-10-31 16:57:33 acdw wait who was on #gemini?
2020-10-31 16:57:55 kiedtl Wasn't jayden here briefly?
2020-10-31 16:58:18 acdw idk-- i figured that's who you were talking about tho :)
2020-10-31 16:58:35 kiedtl Oh F. I'm confusing this channel with another one that jayden was banned in, nvm lol
2020-10-31 16:58:41 acdw lol
2020-10-31 16:58:42 acdw nw
2020-10-31 16:58:54 boringcactus ehh you dont gotta mention me
2020-10-31 16:59:20 acdw coo :)
2020-10-31 16:59:31 kiedtl ,qadd boringcactus=<boringcactus> more like crapitalism amirite <boringcactus> -carl marks
2020-10-31 16:59:31 tildebot [Quotes] Quote added
2020-10-31 16:59:59 acdw oh thanks kiedtl
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2020-10-31 17:00:18 kiedtl there's also the !toot command in #bots and #team (not sure if its anywhere else)
2020-10-31 17:00:42 kiedtl it toots to the tildeverse mastodon account
2020-10-31 17:00:57 acdw oh right!
2020-10-31 17:01:01 acdw well i already tooted it meself
2020-10-31 17:01:02 acdw dang
2020-10-31 17:01:08 acdw !toot toot
2020-10-31 17:01:11 acdw not here
2020-10-31 17:01:11 kiedtl lol it doesn't matter
2020-10-31 17:01:13 acdw hehe
2020-10-31 17:01:19 acdw nothing does amirite
2020-10-31 17:01:34 kiedtl wait, gemini doesn't matter?!
2020-10-31 17:02:19 acdw i find myself drifting more and more to nihilism the older i get --- nothing has intrinsic value or mattter; only what we give it
2020-10-31 17:02:26 acdw so like,,, it matters if *you* think it matters
2020-10-31 17:02:28 acdw and I like that
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2020-10-31 17:03:12 kiedtl hmm
2020-10-31 17:03:39 jan6 "existance is futile" is the jan6 catchphrase
2020-10-31 17:03:44 jan6 that, and "all hail jan6"
2020-10-31 17:03:47 felix And that's precisely why we have to value what we have.
2020-10-31 17:04:01 felix Because if we don't, nothing else will.
2020-10-31 17:04:15 acdw ye
2020-10-31 17:04:21 jan6 existence is futile, but non-existance is even more pointless ;P
2020-10-31 17:04:25 acdw hjs
2020-10-31 17:04:26 acdw ja
2020-10-31 17:04:26 acdw ha
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2020-10-31 18:00:15 ericonr jan6: that's a pretty good phrase, actually
2020-10-31 18:03:27 acdw ,grab jan6
2020-10-31 18:03:27 tildebot [Quotes] Quote added
2020-10-31 18:10:04 ew0k I heard a buddhist say that ”there is meaning *to* life; it’s just a bunch of chemical processes. But you can find a meaning *in* life.”
2020-10-31 18:10:19 ew0k *no meaning to life
2020-10-31 18:10:32 acdw oh i like that a lot
2020-10-31 18:10:54 felix :)
2020-10-31 18:22:57 kiedtl opo
2020-10-31 18:22:59 kiedtl pp;s
2020-10-31 18:23:03 kiedtl oops
2020-10-31 18:23:17 acdw opo iondeedd
2020-10-31 18:24:14 kiedtl i switched to a different kbd layout
2020-10-31 18:24:58 kiedtl that message took so long to type
2020-10-31 18:26:20 acdw hahhaaha
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2020-10-31 19:58:39 @tomasino which one
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2020-10-31 20:02:45 kiedtl tomasino: workman
2020-10-31 20:02:50 @tomasino yay
2020-10-31 20:06:00 acdw work, man
2020-10-31 20:06:10 kiedtl its torture
2020-10-31 20:07:06 @tomasino it'll get easier
2020-10-31 20:07:08 @tomasino you got this
2020-10-31 20:07:40 kiedtl i nope sp
2020-10-31 20:07:56 kiedtl *hope so
2020-10-31 20:08:11 @tomasino tell us about your day
2020-10-31 20:08:53 kiedtl stah; trying 2 kil me lol
2020-10-31 20:08:59 kiedtl *stahp
2020-10-31 20:09:14 @tomasino haha
2020-10-31 20:09:17 @tomasino it's good practice
2020-10-31 20:09:31 @tomasino like lifting weights
2020-10-31 20:09:38 @tomasino slow and painful
2020-10-31 20:09:41 kiedtl chatting on irc is good practice
2020-10-31 20:10:00 @tomasino yeah, the conversations fly by and you finally get a comment in 3 pages later
2020-10-31 20:10:01 kiedtl chatting anywhere, reaooy
2020-10-31 20:10:09 kiedtl *really
2020-10-31 20:10:12 kiedtl lol
2020-10-31 20:10:45 kiedtl forces you to practice common words
2020-10-31 20:11:54 @tomasino oh yes. and gets those familiar patterns into muscle memory
2020-10-31 20:12:03 @tomasino i like when "the" stops being T.H.E.
2020-10-31 20:12:19 kiedtl yup
2020-10-31 20:12:45 @tomasino have you gotten to type the word potato yet?
2020-10-31 20:13:04 acdw potato
2020-10-31 20:13:48 @tomasino i wonder if there's a "hard words to type" list for workman
2020-10-31 20:13:58 @tomasino on qwerty i remember pizazz being annoying
2020-10-31 20:14:04 @tomasino and suburban
2020-10-31 20:14:19 acdw pizzazz oooff you're right
2020-10-31 20:14:22 acdw suburgan
2020-10-31 20:14:23 acdw lol
2020-10-31 20:14:26 kiedtl lol
2020-10-31 20:15:11 @tomasino hehe
2020-10-31 20:15:50 acdw funny story about suburban (shit that IS hard);
2020-10-31 20:16:00 kiedtl still can't type potato smoothly. hopefully in a week I can go back to editing code
2020-10-31 20:16:00 @tomasino pizazz is assuming the obstinance of suburbans
2020-10-31 20:16:06 acdw my wife thought "Beast of Burden" was "Big Suburban" for like,,,,, way too long
2020-10-31 20:16:09 @tomasino try that one acdw
2020-10-31 20:16:11 kiedtl lolol
2020-10-31 20:16:19 acdw pizzazz is assuming the obstinance of suburbans
2020-10-31 20:16:24 @tomasino that's a great misheard lyric!
2020-10-31 20:16:24 acdw assuming is okay tomasino
2020-10-31 20:16:27 acdw haha yea
2020-10-31 20:16:30 acdw i think it's adrobs
2020-10-31 20:16:35 acdw obstinance is okay
2020-10-31 20:16:44 @tomasino my fav is "Aint no woman like the one eyed goat"
2020-10-31 20:16:46 acdw pizzazz is a pain in the ass^W pinky tho
2020-10-31 20:16:50 acdw hahahahahahahha
2020-10-31 20:16:57 acdw that is some good shit
2020-10-31 20:17:11 kiedtl cant type w/ ur ass
2020-10-31 20:17:14 kiedtl lol
2020-10-31 20:18:57 acdw omg
2020-10-31 20:18:58 acdw lolol
2020-10-31 20:19:07 acdw maybe *you* can't
2020-10-31 20:19:25 @tomasino keidtl, try "pony fun"
2020-10-31 20:30:10 ew0k I'd like to add gemini to libcurl... but I honestly don't know when I'd have time to do it. Can I just leave https://curl.haxx.se/mail/lib-2013-01/0124.html here and hope that either someone else picks it up or a bunch of us can make a community effort?
2020-10-31 20:31:11 kiedtl pony fun
2020-10-31 20:31:45 @tomasino was that fun to type?
2020-10-31 20:32:27 kiedtl pony fun
2020-10-31 20:32:42 kiedtl hmm interesting
2020-10-31 20:32:42 @tomasino gemini in libcurl was mentioned a while back on the mailing list. i think someone was already working on it
2020-10-31 20:32:53 ew0k tomasino: awesome!
2020-10-31 20:33:03 @tomasino you might try searching there to see who it was. maybe they've made progress
2020-10-31 20:34:27 ericonr should be pretty simple to add it, I think
2020-10-31 20:35:11 ericonr curl seems to have a lot of stuff already piped around pretty cleanly
2020-10-31 20:36:48 ew0k it's probably really easy, actually. Just takes a bit of time
2020-10-31 20:37:47 ew0k I'd probably trip myself up over writing the tests a bunch of times though
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2020-10-31 22:28:02 rndusr is there a location where the format of a map is?
2020-10-31 22:29:19 ℹ paper is now known as paper__
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2020-10-31 22:32:11 @tomasino gemtext format?
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2020-10-31 22:59:54 boringcactus does anybody know if solderpunk or one of the other early gemini people is planning to run gemini:// through the https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7595 process
2020-10-31 23:07:14 acdw i hope so boringcactus
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2020-11-01 07:25:14 ew0k I have thought about standards processes a bit. What would the difference be if it became an ietf standard?
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2020-11-01 14:23:05 rndusr ew0k: It would get it's own registered port, maybe?
2020-11-01 14:23:35 ew0k ew0k: maybe? :shrugs:
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2020-11-01 14:55:19 CoopDot Wikipedia might consider gemini notable enough :P
2020-11-01 15:04:26 ehmry if you want an wikipedia article to stay up, cram as many links as you can into it
2020-11-01 15:09:44 ehmry suppressive fire notability
2020-11-01 15:17:12 ~tiwesdaeg I've mostly only added images and made minor grammatical corrections on wikipedia
2020-11-01 15:17:55 ~tiwesdaeg I think it would be cool to get a gemini protocol page up
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2020-11-01 15:48:56 Dr-WaSabi tiwesdaeg: cool. thanks for doing that
2020-11-01 15:49:23 ~tiwesdaeg well, I didn't do anything for gemini ;P
2020-11-01 15:49:47 ~tiwesdaeg I'm not sure I really want to do a write-up for it
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2020-11-01 15:50:41 ~tiwesdaeg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gemini
2020-11-01 15:50:54 ~tiwesdaeg someone created a description in the disambiguation page
2020-11-01 15:51:10 ~tiwesdaeg there is no actual page though
2020-11-01 16:08:04 Dr-WaSabi oh... we need to get a page going then
2020-11-01 16:08:24 CoopDot There is a draft page
2020-11-01 16:09:48 Dr-WaSabi interesting... did not know that coleco created a clone of the 2600 vcs called Gemini, learn something new everyday
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2020-11-01 16:10:13 CoopDot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Gemini_(protocol)
2020-11-01 16:12:00 acdw The Gemini page was recently taken down; it was talked about in the ML
2020-11-01 16:13:31 Dr-WaSabi guess I need to get on ML
2020-11-01 16:20:06 acdw here: https://lists.orbitalfox.eu/archives/gemini/2020/002897.html
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2020-11-01 16:35:07 ~tiwesdaeg it looks like the draft needs to be submitted for review
2020-11-01 16:35:16 ~tiwesdaeg I guess we can wait for the author to do so?
2020-11-01 16:38:14 acdw yeah,,, i think it needs more articles? to prove it's "Important?"
2020-11-01 16:41:54 CoopDot An RFC would help
2020-11-01 16:42:00 acdw yes indeed
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2020-11-01 17:02:26 Dr-WaSabi um... so these aren't officeal gemini RFC's? gemini://gemini.conman.org/gRFC/
2020-11-01 17:02:46 Dr-WaSabi oh wow... nice spelling there Dr-WaSabi
2020-11-01 17:04:39 acdw lol
2020-11-01 17:05:31 acdw Dr-WaSabi: uh.. i guess?
2020-11-01 17:05:39 acdw but afaik that hasn't been like, submitted
2020-11-01 17:05:47 Dr-WaSabi oh
2020-11-01 17:05:56 acdw OH also those are pretty out of date i think
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2020-11-01 19:55:07 ew0k aravk: I have to say that I'm satisfied with solderpunk's arguments against content-siez
2020-11-01 19:55:12 ew0k *size
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2020-11-01 20:18:07 acdw me too
2020-11-01 20:18:10 acdw i don't see the point tbh
2020-11-01 20:18:20 acdw very few use-cases for multimedia over gemini
2020-11-01 20:18:29 acdw esp. since you can link to any other protocol
2020-11-01 20:18:35 acdw like,,,,if you want just do ftp:// link
2020-11-01 20:20:16 rndusr hey
2020-11-01 20:20:22 rndusr how does one follow links in bollux?
2020-11-01 20:21:48 acdw when viewing the page, hit 'o'
2020-11-01 20:22:05 rndusr thank you
2020-11-01 20:22:05 acdw then there's a selction dialog -- type the link number and hit enter
2020-11-01 20:22:07 acdw yw :)
2020-11-01 20:22:44 acdw I would *love* to be able to do what a lot of clients do, and do a 1-9 for links 1-9, but less only has 10 custom exit code opitons
2020-11-01 20:22:47 acdw it's pretty annoying
2020-11-01 20:25:02 @tomasino I don't mind waiting without knowing size
2020-11-01 20:25:13 @tomasino I just want it to not crash
2020-11-01 20:29:24 ℹ You are now known as jinglesino
2020-11-01 20:33:32 rndusr is there a way to include multiple directoried in a git repo, without have one all emcompassing directory?
2020-11-01 20:34:02 rndusr specifially, I'm trying to have git track public_html, public_gopher, and public_gemini
2020-11-01 20:36:19 rndusr but I can't put it in a serv directory or something like that without asking an admin to specifically configure it for me
2020-11-01 20:36:26 rndusr which I'm trying to aviod
2020-11-01 20:36:47 rndusr s/iod/oid/g
2020-11-01 20:46:22 ew0k what kind of feeds do CAPCOM and Spacewalk follow? RSS?
2020-11-01 20:50:25 rndusr um
2020-11-01 20:50:34 rndusr the readme does not mention rss or something like that
2020-11-01 20:50:49 ew0k yeah... and rss feels like a web-y sort of thing
2020-11-01 20:51:01 rndusr yeah :/
2020-11-01 20:51:20 ew0k CAPCOM *does* say "Aggregating 78 Atom feeds", though
2020-11-01 20:51:26 rndusr hmm
2020-11-01 20:54:38 ew0k yeah, it's atom feeds
2020-11-01 20:55:36 ew0k check gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/~solderpunk/gemlog/atom.xml for example
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2020-11-01 21:01:50 CoopDot Assuming public_html, public_gopher and public_gemini are all in your home directory and have full ownership. Have you considered making them symlinks or would that brake one or more of the servers?
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2020-11-01 21:19:20 rndusr CoopDot: make what symlinks?
2020-11-01 21:19:51 rndusr like, have a directory of simlinks to pub_ht, pub_gem, and pub_goph?
2020-11-01 21:20:15 rndusr and ahve git track that directory?
2020-11-01 21:20:28 rndusr can git follow symlinks?
2020-11-01 21:20:59 CoopDot I was thinking the other way around
2020-11-01 21:21:26 rndusr oh
2020-11-01 21:21:35 rndusr that makes sense
2020-11-01 21:21:42 rndusr thank you!
2020-11-01 21:21:51 CoopDot ~/public_html -> ~/tracked/public_html
2020-11-01 21:21:56 rndusr yeah
2020-11-01 21:22:40 CoopDot however, some webservers might take an issue with that
2020-11-01 21:24:58 rndusr do you know if nginx would take issue with it?
2020-11-01 21:26:41 alex11 is there a list of cool gemini/gopher sites?
2020-11-01 21:26:56 rndusr I don't think there's a central list
2020-11-01 21:27:53 acdw alex11: gemini://gus.guru/known-hosts
2020-11-01 21:28:02 acdw oh that's all of them ... lol
2020-11-01 21:28:10 acdw i guess you could say they're *all* pretty cool :P
2020-11-01 21:28:12 CoopDot [nginx] I don't know, but it's an easy change to revert
2020-11-01 21:28:48 acdw rnusr: I don't think the servers would care about following symlinks. what server are you on?
2020-11-01 21:29:40 acdw also RE: Atom feeds instaed of a more... Gemini-y thing: That's been talked about too, on the ML and maybe in here? Basically the idea is the same behind using TLS: it's already written, it works well, it's well-specced
2020-11-01 21:29:55 acdw sure it's not *super* simple, but it's really not very complicated either
2020-11-01 21:30:19 acdw I hand-wrote the RSS generator for my http site from a glanc at the wikipedia page, for example.
2020-11-01 21:30:25 rndusr speaking of atom and rss, does gemini://tilde.club/~randomuser/writings/articles/rss.xml look like correctly formed rss?
2020-11-01 21:31:20 acdw I think so? Is there not a <feed></feed> .. wrapper? I honestly would hvae to look it up to be sure
2020-11-01 21:32:04 acdw yeah you want to close the <rss> feed at the end
2020-11-01 21:32:18 acdw here's a sapmle file from the RSS Board: https://www.rssboard.org/files/sample-rss-2.xml
2020-11-01 21:32:22 rndusr acdw: ok
2020-11-01 21:32:41 acdw oh you want a <channel> tag too to wrap it
2020-11-01 21:32:53 acdw like,,,<rss><channel>...</channel></rss>
2020-11-01 21:32:55 acdw :D
2020-11-01 21:32:58 acdw okay going shopping
2020-11-01 21:33:37 rndusr have fun!
2020-11-01 21:33:48 makeworld rndusr: Usually people use atom on Gemini btw
2020-11-01 21:34:00 makeworld See you acdw
2020-11-01 21:34:18 rndusr oh well
2020-11-01 21:34:26 rndusr I'll focus on it later
2020-11-01 21:34:43 rndusr my vim isn't configured correctly so it renders tabs as 8 spaces :/
2020-11-01 21:34:54 rndusr ideally it's be tab = 4 spaces
2020-11-01 21:34:57 rndusr and no tabs
2020-11-01 21:35:06 makeworld Uh oh it doesn't look like that feed is valid
2020-11-01 21:35:08 ★ rndusr suchgs
2020-11-01 21:35:16 makeworld https://validator.w3.org/feed/#validate_by_input
2020-11-01 21:35:23 makeworld I tested it here and there were some complaints
2020-11-01 21:35:36 rndusr oh well ._.
2020-11-01 21:36:24 thefunkyspaw I've made big progress in understanding the beautiful soup model
2020-11-01 21:36:52 thefunkyspaw I'm using it to write an HTML -> gemtext converter, for reasons that don't make a ton of sense :)
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2020-11-01 21:37:09 makeworld rndusr: If you're just generating a feed for static files you should check out gemfeed
2020-11-01 21:37:24 ★ makeworld afk
2020-11-01 21:37:39 zephryn are there any rss/atom readers that have implemented gemini?
2020-11-01 21:37:45 rndusr yeah
2020-11-01 21:37:50 rndusr there's spacewalk
2020-11-01 21:39:05 ℹ You are now known as tomasino
2020-11-01 21:46:03 ★ Dr-WaSabi sets his vim config to treat .gmi files as markdown
2020-11-01 21:47:38 rndusr wait
2020-11-01 21:48:02 rndusr can one use escape sequences to add color to gemini/gopher pages
2020-11-01 21:48:19 thefunkyspaw yes, if the client supports it
2020-11-01 21:48:36 thefunkyspaw one big downside is web proxies usually don't
2020-11-01 21:48:36 rndusr so I'd have to ideally provide a non coloured version
2020-11-01 21:48:43 thefunkyspaw yeah
2020-11-01 21:54:34 rndusr oh, nginx serves content with soft simlinks
2020-11-01 21:54:41 rndusr incase anyone was wondering
2020-11-01 22:04:39 Dr-WaSabi really... color excape sequences.. didn't know that. I thought gemini files where only allowd like 3 or 4 c0 control sequences in them
2020-11-01 22:13:49 @tomasino Dr-WaSabi: there's a vim gemtext syntax file linked on circumlunar
2020-11-01 22:26:50 Dr-WaSabi oh cewl.. thanks
2020-11-01 22:28:58 kernel_pancake has quit (quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2020-11-01 22:32:41 rndusr exit
2020-11-01 22:32:44 rndusr whoops
2020-11-01 22:33:57 CoopDot color excape sequences are dicouraged but not forbidden
2020-11-01 22:34:38 CoopDot I consider them a bad idea
2020-11-01 22:34:55 rndusr I guess I should publish them as an .ansi file
2020-11-01 22:35:01 rndusr or whatever they're called
2020-11-01 22:36:49 rndusr or just make them not gemfiles
2020-11-01 22:39:11 rndusr wait
2020-11-01 22:39:31 rndusr is 404-like behaviour defined in gopher or gemini?
2020-11-01 22:48:43 CoopDot 51
2020-11-01 22:53:10 CoopDot sorry, "HTTP 404 Not Found" is similar to "Gemini 51 Not Found" but there are no custom error pages
2020-11-01 23:04:55 rndusr ah
2020-11-01 23:04:57 rndusr okay
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2020-11-01 23:11:38 acdw b/c Area 51 :D
2020-11-01 23:11:39 zephryn welcome back :D
2020-11-01 23:12:11 acdw rndusr: for vim tabs, check the 'tabstop' option i think
2020-11-01 23:12:17 acdw you can do :help 'tabstop'
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2020-11-01 23:31:46 rndusr henlo
2020-11-01 23:32:18 acdw hi!
2020-11-01 23:32:31 acdw i'm going to switch to molly-brown i think, but i'm going to figure out my ish first on my compy
2020-11-01 23:32:45 acdw GEMINI
2020-11-01 23:37:39 epoch I just noticed that castor is sending fragment IDs to the server
2020-11-01 23:37:43 acdw so fyi, i guess
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2020-11-01 23:47:19 Seirdy has quit (quit: exiting 3.0-rc1)
2020-11-01 23:52:42 jcowan epoch: you should report it to the castor mailing list (register at https://lists.sr.ht/~julienxx/castor)
2020-11-01 23:53:03 fleeky has quit (Connection closed)
2020-11-01 23:53:05 epoch I have the most recent post on that list
2020-11-01 23:54:03 epoch I'll put a bit more effort into a report on the list than just a one-liner like I do in IRC.
2020-11-01 23:54:58 ▬▬▶ Seirdy has joined #gemini
2020-11-02 00:13:17 acdw haha
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2020-11-02 00:23:49 sircmpwn greetings
2020-11-02 00:24:20 acdw hi sircmpwn!
2020-11-02 00:24:30 boringcactus hey
2020-11-02 00:26:52 sircmpwn many familiar faces in here
2020-11-02 00:31:56 acdw yes
2020-11-02 00:31:58 acdw we hang out
2020-11-02 00:32:08 acdw it's tthe cool place to be
2020-11-02 00:33:28 alex11 being on one network is fun where you can flip between multiple channels and see the same names chatting
2020-11-02 00:33:36 boringcactus all the cool* kids** hang out on here
2020-11-02 00:33:37 Dr-WaSabi acdw even lets me hang out in here, but I have to send him a check every week for the privage
2020-11-02 00:33:41 boringcactus *no we're not **no we're not
2020-11-02 00:33:46 acdw haha i wish Dr-WaSabi
2020-11-02 00:33:54 Dr-WaSabi Im glad I dont
2020-11-02 00:33:55 acdw aw boringcactus i think you're cool
2020-11-02 00:34:00 acdw i mean, you're welcome too
2020-11-02 00:34:02 acdw *to
2020-11-02 00:38:27 sircmpwn one of the challenges that I think gemini faces and will continue to face is dis-sastisfaction with its meager feature set from new members of the community
2020-11-02 00:38:46 sircmpwn like a third of the people I talk to about gemini immediately start talking about the extensions they would make to add $FEATURE
2020-11-02 00:39:26 sircmpwn I think it's important that we establish a culture of conservatism with respect to extensions, and re-iterate that we want to find out what good things we can do within the limitations we've got
2020-11-02 00:40:02 sircmpwn trying to figure out the right way of expressing this idea to newcomers
2020-11-02 00:40:17 boringcactus minimalism as a guiding principle means your favorite feature won't be there, but it also means your least favorite won't be
2020-11-02 00:40:39 boringcactus and like. you can technically build shit like a mastodon/pleroma client over Gemini
2020-11-02 00:40:45 sircmpwn that's a good way of stating it
2020-11-02 00:41:07 boringcactus building gemifedi was actually a really interesting exercise in designing within constraints
2020-11-02 00:42:09 boringcactus people have made the case that gemini's not really built to be used for that, and that's true, but if you try hard and believe in yourself you can do it anyway
2020-11-02 00:43:03 boringcactus it makes some good things difficult, yeah, but it makes most bad things difficult
2020-11-02 00:43:28 sircmpwn it will be interesting to build a sourcehut frontend for gemini
2020-11-02 00:43:41 sircmpwn it's really going to stretch the medium
2020-11-02 00:43:48 boringcactus yeah that'll be interesting to see
2020-11-02 00:44:15 ★ Dr-WaSabi listens and learns
2020-11-02 00:44:30 sircmpwn I like solderpunk's replies to the content-length discussion today. I can see some of the deliberate design decisions in the protocol which makes it difficult to extend in a backwards-compatible way
2020-11-02 00:44:55 sircmpwn which gives it a built-in pressure against such expansion, even in the absence of negative feedback from the community (for example if someone who writes a client never subscribes to the list)
2020-11-02 00:48:08 rndusr is there a mailing list that I should know about? lol
2020-11-02 00:49:40 sircmpwn https://lists.orbitalfox.eu/listinfo/gemini
2020-11-02 00:50:03 rndusr ah
2020-11-02 00:50:05 rndusr yes
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2020-11-02 01:28:23 acdw this is great discussion!
2020-11-02 01:29:24 acdw also --- there is a stagit fork which works over gemini, and even a git cgi script for gemini
2020-11-02 01:31:32 rndusr gemini has a cgi standard?
2020-11-02 01:31:38 rndusr I'll have to experiment!
2020-11-02 01:34:18 acdw it follows *the* cgi standard
2020-11-02 01:34:33 acdw slash spec or whatever
2020-11-02 01:35:45 alex11 huh
2020-11-02 01:35:50 alex11 there's no wikipedia page for gemini
2020-11-02 01:35:54 alex11 i thought there used to be one
2020-11-02 01:39:11 @tomasino It's in draft
2020-11-02 01:39:15 Dr-WaSabi think I saw that it was taken down
2020-11-02 01:39:23 Dr-WaSabi but there is a draft page
2020-11-02 01:40:18 Dr-WaSabi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Gemini_(protocol)
2020-11-02 01:40:49 alex11 i tried installing elpher and my emacs version in debian is too old rip
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2020-11-02 01:45:34 acdw yeah it was taken down
2020-11-02 01:45:36 acdw alex11: awww
2020-11-02 01:45:41 acdw what versoin is debian emacs?
2020-11-02 01:45:45 alex11 26.1
2020-11-02 01:45:46 acdw build! from! source!
2020-11-02 01:45:56 acdw huh, i would'a thought 26.1 would build elpher
2020-11-02 01:46:00 acdw s/build/run/
2020-11-02 01:47:19 alex11 there's also flatpak but meh i don't need a newer emacs
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2020-11-02 01:49:38 acdw oh it just requires 26.2
2020-11-02 01:49:41 acdw so close!
2020-11-02 01:50:32 Dr-WaSabi oh that sucks
2020-11-02 01:51:09 zephryn ah dang D:
2020-11-02 01:51:19 acdw idk why
2020-11-02 01:51:53 zephryn are there more up-to-date ppas?
2020-11-02 01:52:00 alex11 PPAs break debian
2020-11-02 01:52:20 alex11 there's ways to get newer emacs, i'm just not interested
2020-11-02 01:52:58 zephryn ohh, i must be thinking of another ppa-like method
2020-11-02 01:53:23 acdw well rip
2020-11-02 01:58:51 alex11 ppa is an ubuntu thing
2020-11-02 02:01:16 acdw i actually didn't realize that! huh
2020-11-02 02:02:18 alex11 wiki.debian.org/DontBreakDebian
2020-11-02 02:03:08 acdw alex11: huh,TIL
2020-11-02 02:03:11 acdw thanks!
2020-11-02 02:13:39 epoch urn:ietf:rfc:3875 CGI
2020-11-02 02:16:43 zephryn i feel like i remember using a third-party package for apt with debian, so i must've mixed that method up with ppas
2020-11-02 02:17:31 acdw do any of yall have a cgi/scgi script as your / ?
2020-11-02 02:24:13 epoch I could.
2020-11-02 02:27:12 alex11 *some* third party repos are fine, some .debs are fine
2020-11-02 02:27:45 acdw epoch: you could but you don't?
2020-11-02 02:27:50 acdw can I ask what server you use?
2020-11-02 02:28:48 epoch gemini://gemini.thebackupbox.net/
2020-11-02 02:28:54 epoch I use some shell-script ran from stunnel
2020-11-02 02:29:20 epoch just now added 3 lines to the shell-script to have it do index.cgi if it exists
2020-11-02 02:30:04 epoch lemme commit changes and I'll link you to it.
2020-11-02 02:30:40 acdw maybe i should do a shell-script server .......
2020-11-02 02:33:14 zephryn ah i remember now, it was nodesource when i was trying to run something that needed a newer version of node
2020-11-02 02:33:29 acdw epoch: oh snap, your server is down
2020-11-02 02:33:35 acdw i got a time-out
2020-11-02 02:33:41 acdw i broke your server D:
2020-11-02 02:34:02 epoch mmm might be your client.
2020-11-02 02:34:24 zephryn timed out for me as well
2020-11-02 02:34:25 sircmpwn doesn't work for me, either
2020-11-02 02:34:46 sircmpwn "it cannot be my fault, it must be the user's fault" - every programmer
2020-11-02 02:35:43 epoch which clients are you two using so I can test them?
2020-11-02 02:35:55 boringcactus oh the "just don't install software we haven't specifically approved" debian page is hilarious
2020-11-02 02:36:09 epoch if my server isn't responding, it is my fault
2020-11-02 02:36:18 sircmpwn gmnlm
2020-11-02 02:36:31 boringcactus when you're definitely not replicating the same walled garden you're trying to offer an escape from
2020-11-02 02:36:46 sircmpwn boringcactus: they're correct
2020-11-02 02:36:56 sircmpwn the only way you should install software is through your distribution's package repository
2020-11-02 02:37:06 sircmpwn if software you want is missing, request it or package it up and send it upstream
2020-11-02 02:38:41 epoch hrm. including a / at the end of the https URI when doing git clone on gmni returned an error
2020-11-02 02:38:53 epoch worked without the trailing / though
2020-11-02 02:39:37 zephryn possibly has an error with how it parses urls
2020-11-02 02:40:52 epoch "gmni -j once gemini://gemini.thebackupbox.net/" worked here, so it is probably something else dumb on my end
2020-11-02 02:40:59 sircmpwn firewall?
2020-11-02 02:41:16 epoch I don't have any.
2020-11-02 02:41:24 sircmpwn wait, it works now. It's just sloooooow
2020-11-02 02:41:27 boringcactus well in that case sircmpwn why provide a make install target in the first place?
2020-11-02 02:41:34 sircmpwn boringcactus: for the distros to use
2020-11-02 02:41:53 epoch alright, was just about to check the port forwards on my router..
2020-11-02 02:42:27 epoch probably need to move gemini to a different computer. its on a raspi atm that's doing too many things.
2020-11-02 02:42:57 ★ epoch stops i2pd
2020-11-02 02:43:37 epoch should go faster now
2020-11-02 02:43:51 sircmpwn not especially
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2020-11-02 02:50:45 acdw epoch: sorry it took me a minute; i'm using elpher
2020-11-02 02:50:50 acdw your site's worked before
2020-11-02 02:51:31 acdw HEY it's up now!
2020-11-02 02:51:54 epoch 5.63 5.92 6.05 2/257 30017
2020-11-02 02:51:59 epoch that's /proc/loadavg atm
2020-11-02 02:52:06 acdw must've been the thru put, it was a timeout
2020-11-02 02:52:11 acdw idk what that means lol
2020-11-02 02:52:28 epoch I only have 1 CPU, so that 5. means 500% I'm pretty sure
2020-11-02 02:52:56 acdw haha
2020-11-02 02:52:58 acdw dang
2020-11-02 02:53:05 acdw over 50000
2020-11-02 02:54:05 dctrud is the pi in swap or something?
2020-11-02 02:54:17 epoch if you can figure out how to get your client to send "urn:ietf:rfc:1918" (or whatever RFC number) to gemini://epo.k.vu/ it'll send back a uri-list
2020-11-02 02:55:24 epoch doesn't seem to be in swap much
2020-11-02 02:55:51 dctrud even a little can be pretty catastrophic if you are swapping to an sd card
2020-11-02 02:57:08 acdw epoch: I know i gitted your shell-script server before, but i don't remember where from. linK?
2020-11-02 02:57:51 epoch https://github.com/kkabrams/shell-daemons/ (I'd give you the link hosted on this raspi, but it is already under enough trouble atm :P)
2020-11-02 02:58:30 acdw thanks!
2020-11-02 02:58:31 acdw haha
2020-11-02 02:59:46 acdw so epoch: to run that, i just ... run it?
2020-11-02 02:59:56 acdw like, put it in a service file and let her rip?
2020-11-02 03:00:21 acdw oh no, i need to stunnel it
2020-11-02 03:02:10 epoch uhhh
2020-11-02 03:02:12 epoch about that.
2020-11-02 03:02:23 epoch some of the variables it uses aren't set by normal stunnel
2020-11-02 03:02:54 epoch because, I guess nobody else wanted all those handy variables in subprocesses from stunnel before me.
2020-11-02 03:03:53 epoch like, SSL_TLS_SNI I had to add in
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2020-11-02 03:07:47 epoch gemini://gemini.thebackupbox.net/stunnel.diff here's a diff of what I did
2020-11-02 03:08:14 epoch looks like I didn't finish and commented some stuff out
2020-11-02 03:39:01 jcowan I wrote up the Dioscuri protocol in a more stable way. Eventually I'll convert it into text/gemini when it's more stable. It's at https://tinyurl.com/dioscuri-protocol
2020-11-02 03:39:48 jcowan Please read and comment here or at cowan@ccil.org. Thanks.
2020-11-02 03:40:25 acdw epoch: woa lol, looks like i'm gonna be playing withthis later
2020-11-02 03:40:59 acdw jcowan: hell yes! I've been thinking about using like, molly-brown and running something else on 1967 or something to upload. I'll take a look at it! Thanks :)
2020-11-02 03:41:31 jcowan It needs an app server rather than a document server to actually be useful, though.
2020-11-02 03:41:44 jcowan and atm I don't have time to write one.
2020-11-02 03:43:44 acdw wdym?
2020-11-02 03:49:42 acdw oh i just saw the port number, nice
2020-11-02 03:54:39 acdw jcowan: how can a client close the sending side but keep its receiving side open?
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2020-11-02 04:00:11 jcowan At the C level, with shutdown(fd, 1), where 1 = close the sending side
2020-11-02 04:00:43 jcowan 0 means close the receiving side, and 2 means close both (which is equivalent to plain close(fd).
2020-11-02 04:01:25 jcowan there are some Posix constants, SHUT_RD, SHUT_WR, SHUT_RW.
2020-11-02 04:02:27 jcowan Come to think of it, though, that might not be supported by TLS libraries. I'll have to look into that.
2020-11-02 04:02:55 acdw oh okay --- yeah I'd be using bash, lol
2020-11-02 04:03:04 acdw i'd have to see if openssl s_client could do that
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2020-11-02 04:03:18 acdw or ... elpher
2020-11-02 04:04:21 boringcactus if you press Ctrl+D to signify EOF would that work? or however you'd embed that into a pipe or what have you
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2020-11-02 04:05:59 acdw I mean -- I tink EOF just . happens? . when it comes to end of file, in a stream e.g.
2020-11-02 04:06:08 acdw like when cat does its thing, right?
2020-11-02 04:06:32 jcowan I think you have to call TLS_shutdown, close one side of the raw socket ... but then what? You can't restart TLS with a half-open socket.
2020-11-02 04:06:35 jcowan ow ow ow ow
2020-11-02 04:07:07 epoch if you don't use -ign_eof for openssl s_client, and you try to just printf "URL\r\n" | openssl s_client, it'll end early
2020-11-02 04:07:22 epoch (-quiet implies -ign_eof)
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2020-11-02 04:08:01 acdw oh okay, so you'd send the ign_eof
2020-11-02 04:09:30 epoch from what I'm looking at, half-closed is a new thing for TLS 1.3
2020-11-02 04:09:35 jcowan There doesn't seem to be such a thing. ign_eof means "Keep the connection open even though there is nothing more to send." But the receiving end doesn't get any indication of that.
2020-11-02 04:09:46 epoch "draft-22 - Implement changes for improved middlebox penetration (*)"
2020-11-02 04:09:48 jcowan Oh, good. Still, there are few libraries that support 1.3 yet
2020-11-02 04:09:53 epoch "Remove requirement to immediately respond to close_notify with close_notify (allowing half-close)"
2020-11-02 04:09:59 acdw oh huh
2020-11-02 04:09:59 jcowan Thanks.
2020-11-02 04:09:59 epoch https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-tls-tls13-25.html
2020-11-02 04:10:36 acdw jcowan: have you looked at titan? https://communitywiki.org/wiki/Titan
2020-11-02 04:11:35 jcowan Sure. Titan is a PUT protocol rather than a POST protocol; no entity body comes back from the server.
2020-11-02 04:11:41 acdw OH sorry
2020-11-02 04:11:51 acdw I am not "up" on my HTTP verbs
2020-11-02 04:12:16 acdw so it makes sense that it doesn't hve those issues
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2020-11-02 04:13:25 jcowan Maybe I can put together a trivial server that lets you send something like {"op":"+", "left":2, "right":3} and returns {"result:5"}.
2020-11-02 04:14:01 jcowan So in practice I guess the content-length will be mandatory for sending.
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2020-11-02 04:19:04 jcowan Okay, patched things up. A request-line has URI, content length, MIME type, and a response-line has 2-digit code, content length, META.
2020-11-02 04:19:15 jcowan No messy interaction with TLS.
2020-11-02 04:20:13 jcowan Unfortunately, neither the client nor the server can stream its output, as the length must be known in advance. However, for application/json bodies, that's typically the case anyway.
2020-11-02 04:24:03 acdw well that's okay i think
2020-11-02 04:24:13 acdw streams are kind of a weird thing in gmeini anyway
2020-11-02 04:25:31 acdw so each side closes the connection?
2020-11-02 04:25:36 acdw like: C: request, close
2020-11-02 04:25:43 acdw S: response, close
2020-11-02 04:25:44 acdw ?
2020-11-02 04:27:44 acdw OH right -- POST is for form input, i understand this now, lol
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2020-11-02 05:06:05 praetorian Is there a server equivalent of the client torture test? I.e. something to fuzz the server to find potential crashes, bugs or security issues?
2020-11-02 05:08:34 acdw yes, tho i don't know where it is
2020-11-02 05:09:45 praetorian Hm, alright.
2020-11-02 05:10:39 acdw you could try serachign gus.guru or the mailing list
2020-11-02 05:13:02 jcowan acdw: That's what I was doing, but it won't work on TLS 1.2. So in Dioscuri I'm going with content lengths rather than half-closes.
2020-11-02 05:13:31 acdw ah, neat
2020-11-02 05:13:39 acdw oh okay cool
2020-11-02 05:41:24 praetorian acdw: I found this https://github.com/michael-lazar/gemini-diagnostics I might try this out.
2020-11-02 05:41:39 acdw nicE!
2020-11-02 05:41:58 zephryn ooo, looks nice
2020-11-02 06:02:47 praetorian just tried it out. works well.. now I have some work to do on my server.
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2020-11-02 06:11:16 acdw awesome!
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2020-11-02 09:22:35 ew0k does anyone have a link to a gmi2html utility?
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2020-11-02 10:29:23 nixo Hi, I've got a question about the protocol. Is it fine to send a 0-length <META>? In section 3.1 there's a maximum length, but not a minimum, and under 3.2.4,5,6 there's "may provide", and under 3.3 it says it can be an empty string. Am I right?
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2020-11-02 10:48:07 ew0k nixo: what status code do you intend to send? I *think* a 0-length meta is fine, but most status codes would benefit greatly from some meta info
2020-11-02 10:49:12 ew0k the protocol is mostly geared towards human readers, and a human reader would like to know what went wrong. The exception is 20, which also returns a response body. In that case the browser would benefit from mime type info
2020-11-02 10:49:57 ew0k I just got involved in this myself, so may interpretation is likely to be as much guesswork as your own :)
2020-11-02 11:41:03 nixo ew0k: I'm working now on the client side (kristall, solving issue https://github.com/MasterQ32/kristall/issues/43)
2020-11-02 11:41:55 nixo ew0k: we were wondering if a missing meta is valid or not
2020-11-02 11:45:04 ew0k right. Hmmm.
2020-11-02 12:03:19 ew0k nixo: My interpretation after re-reading the specification is that 1) A browser should be able to handle a zero-length meta field, because the specification does not un-ambigously state a minimum length - and 2) you should post a request for clarification on the mailing list, so that the specification is updated to be clear on the topic
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2020-11-02 13:22:15 jcowan I'd like to know too, because the error responses of Dioscuri are the same as those of Gemini, and the notion of displaying something to the user doesn't much make sense in a Dioscuri appserver.
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2020-11-02 13:36:04 ew0k jcowan: I read the specs on dioscuri last night. I don't fully understand how it's different from titan, except the lack of authorization token
2020-11-02 13:37:15 jcowan A Titan client just pushes a new body to a specified URL. A Dioscuri client pushes content and then either pulls content or is told where to pull it from.
2020-11-02 13:37:52 jcowan I've added a bit more today about Titan and about using the MIME-type messag/external-body when the response body is not in the message, rather than a new response code.
2020-11-02 13:45:44 nixo ew0k: sent the mail to the list, waiting for moderation
2020-11-02 13:56:04 ew0k nixo: Super!
2020-11-02 13:56:25 ew0k moderation can take time, unfortunately. Like... a day or so, from what I've heard
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2020-11-02 14:38:02 sircmpwn hey guys, quick note: please pick a license for your capsule's content and add a note to that effect on your index page
2020-11-02 14:38:14 sircmpwn I use CC-BY-SA for mine
2020-11-02 14:38:17 sircmpwn https://creativecommons.org/share-your-work/
2020-11-02 14:41:24 @tomasino your nick and your name on everything else on the internet don't mesh in my head
2020-11-02 14:41:34 @tomasino :)
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2020-11-02 14:42:05 @tomasino i mean, i see it now that i look deeper, but with the chars all together i get stupid
2020-11-02 14:42:17 @tomasino hah, no need to change it! just admiting my stupid
2020-11-02 14:42:38 @tomasino nice post, btw
2020-11-02 14:43:42 ddevault thanks :)
2020-11-02 14:45:18 raiz ddevault: yeah, good call, I'll have my gempod up soon. Initially I was going to roll my own server implementation, I discovered gmnisrv just now, I think I'll go with it, seems to cover all I want
2020-11-02 14:45:23 ddevault nice
2020-11-02 14:46:06 raiz kinda feels like geomyidae (from gopher space)
2020-11-02 14:46:12 raiz which is neat
2020-11-02 14:48:37 @tomasino added a link to a license file on my capsule - gemini://tilde.team/~tomasino/license.txt
2020-11-02 14:52:52 makeworld Where is the dioscuri spec? The recently emailed shortlink didn't work
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2020-11-02 15:45:29 aravk ew0k: yeah, I agree (re: solderpunk's arguments against content-size)
2020-11-02 15:45:58 aravk I just thought it would be a useful feature to clients, but I understand that it's not really something Gemini needs.
2020-11-02 15:49:36 kayw is it okay to use a letsencrypt cert for my capsule or should I just roll with a self-signed one
2020-11-02 15:50:21 ew0k kayw: it’s okay, but not necessary :)
2020-11-02 15:51:18 kayw hmmm yeah
2020-11-02 15:51:38 kayw I think I'll just switch to a self-signed cert
2020-11-02 15:54:57 dacav how would a let's encrypt for gemini work btw? Would you get the certificate signed by let's encrypt via HTTP, as you would do for a HTTPS server, and then use it for your capsule?
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2020-11-02 15:58:36 ddevault don't use let's encrypt
2020-11-02 15:58:38 ddevault use self-signed certificates
2020-11-02 15:59:50 ddevault maybe I should explicitly distrust certificates signed by an authority in my client to discourage this
2020-11-02 16:02:29 raiz ddevault: alloca.h seems to be a linux-only thing, considering that I checked manpages for the 3 major BSDs and all of them specify alloca() in stdlib.h, this caused errors when compiling on openbsd, then I placed #include <alloca.h> in an #ifdef for linux and recompiled, still have similar errors
2020-11-02 16:02:41 raiz I've looked through the manpage of alloca(3) on openbsd but it didn't say much
2020-11-02 16:02:52 raiz until I went through the manpage of alloca(3) on linux and...
2020-11-02 16:03:01 dacav hi ddevault!
2020-11-02 16:03:15 dacav I always read your blog :)
2020-11-02 16:03:31 @ben what's the argument against letsencrypt?
2020-11-02 16:03:48 raiz -std=c11 on openbsd disables the inclusion of alloca(3) even when stdlib.h is included
2020-11-02 16:04:02 raiz read Notes on the GNU version on alloca(3) for linux
2020-11-02 16:04:03 @ben i used letsencrypt for my gemini site cause i already had the certs and didn't want to look up the incantation to create my own certs
2020-11-02 16:04:07 raiz https://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man3/alloca.3.html
2020-11-02 16:04:22 ddevault it's in vendored code
2020-11-02 16:04:25 ddevault would you consider writing a patch?
2020-11-02 16:04:28 dacav raiz: afaik even on Linux it is discouraged. In practice there's never a good reason for using alloca(3). Most of the use cases for it can be covered with a local array having a bounded max size.
2020-11-02 16:04:48 raiz ddevault: I'm still not done getting it to compile on openbsd
2020-11-02 16:05:00 raiz seems that ASN1_TIME_diff isn't here either
2020-11-02 16:05:02 ddevault thanks dacav :)
2020-11-02 16:05:03 raiz I'm gonna look into it
2020-11-02 16:05:10 ddevault raiz: note that LibreSSL is not supported
2020-11-02 16:05:16 raiz yeah
2020-11-02 16:05:20 martijnbraam ben: gmnisrv generates the certs for you, no need to figure out the magic openssl commands to make it work
2020-11-02 16:05:24 raiz I'll look into having openssl there
2020-11-02 16:05:30 ddevault ben: my server implementation generates certificates for you, without any sysadmin involvement at all
2020-11-02 16:05:37 raiz and understand how the configure scrips generates makefiles
2020-11-02 16:05:47 ddevault we should normalize self-signed certs and discourage admins from touching them at all
2020-11-02 16:05:57 @ben that sounds nice
2020-11-02 16:06:10 @ben i haven't looked at your impl yet - i'm currently running gemserv
2020-11-02 16:06:25 ddevault certs are annoying as hell, easy to get wrong, and the CA cabal is not something I'm interested in bringing forward to the next thing
2020-11-02 16:06:25 raiz ddevault: I'll keep you updated
2020-11-02 16:06:35 @ben understandable
2020-11-02 16:06:37 ddevault ben: https://git.sr.ht/~sircmpwn/gmnisrv
2020-11-02 16:06:48 ddevault see src/tls.c
2020-11-02 16:07:18 @ben does gmnisrv support ~user pages and cgi?
2020-11-02 16:07:27 ddevault I don't know how ~user pages are supposed to work
2020-11-02 16:07:31 ddevault cgi is supported
2020-11-02 16:07:42 @ben gemini://tilde.team/~ben is hosted from ~/public_gemini
2020-11-02 16:07:48 @ben just per-user docroot
2020-11-02 16:07:48 ddevault it supports regex routing and URL rewriting, which might be able to do the ~user thing
2020-11-02 16:07:57 ew0k ddevault: I saw that Cochrane is planning a blog battle with you regarding meaningful HTTP subsets :) looking forward to reading that
2020-11-02 16:08:34 ddevault [example.org~/~(?<user>.*)/(?<path>.*)]root=/home rewrite=/\1/\2
2020-11-02 16:08:37 ddevault something like that
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2020-11-02 16:08:53 @ben oh ok nice
2020-11-02 16:09:09 @ben i'll have a look
2020-11-02 16:09:10 ddevault \{user} \{path} derp
2020-11-02 16:09:15 ddevault why did I name the capture groups if I don't even use them
2020-11-02 16:09:19 @ben not sure i'll switch over but that seems reasonable
2020-11-02 16:09:30 @ben i wouldn't mind _not_ using LE
2020-11-02 16:09:55 ddevault it's not quite done, still needs some more stuff around client certificates, and a couple of bugs ironed out, and I'll probably switch to BearSSL
2020-11-02 16:10:45 @ben cool :)
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2020-11-02 16:59:04 raiz ddevault: I assume you never tested it with any version lower than openssl 1.1, correct?
2020-11-02 16:59:20 ddevault correct
2020-11-02 16:59:28 ddevault I only support the latest version of my dependencies in any of the software I write
2020-11-02 17:00:08 raiz I got it to compile, finally, but in an ugly way... running it is tricky also... let me show you...
2020-11-02 17:02:12 raiz https://ttm.sh/dhp.diff
2020-11-02 17:02:25 raiz running it requires altering LD_LIBRARY_PATH=
2020-11-02 17:02:37 raiz it uses openssl from ports
2020-11-02 17:03:13 raiz LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/usr/local/lib/eopenssl11/ ./gmnisrv
2020-11-02 17:04:00 raiz yeah, I know what you're thinking, don't merge this
2020-11-02 17:04:09 raiz until I find a better way
2020-11-02 17:04:34 ddevault it would be better to refactor out the one use of alloca
2020-11-02 17:04:50 raiz I thought about that
2020-11-02 17:04:59 raiz then I took a look at the code using it, and I changed my mind
2020-11-02 17:05:04 raiz maybe some time later lol
2020-11-02 17:05:33 ddevault you can just drop-in malloc/free
2020-11-02 17:06:24 raiz I haven't gone through the code thoroughly, there's more of the code assuming the use of alloca, I'm not sure if dropping in malloc/free would work without side effects
2020-11-02 17:07:18 raiz I'll look into it later, we don't want memory leaks
2020-11-02 17:07:23 raiz I gotta go soon
2020-11-02 17:07:26 ddevault np
2020-11-02 17:07:54 raiz I'll email you any updates if I don't find you here
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2020-11-02 17:16:13 acdw ddevault: i'm looking b/w gmnisrv and molly-brown, and i like how molly does .mollyhead for indexes -- think that's possible for gmnisrv? slash could i cgi an index ? ___ i guess i could rewrite the path huh
2020-11-02 17:16:24 acdw I haven't done a ton w/ servers so if that's a dumb question that's why
2020-11-02 17:21:39 ddevault how does .mollyhead work, acdw?
2020-11-02 17:22:47 acdw its contents are displayed before the auto-generated index in directories without an index.gmi
2020-11-02 17:23:07 acdw (I was going to say you could look @ my website, but it's only set up at my house ;-;)
2020-11-02 17:23:46 ddevault yeah I don't want to do something like that
2020-11-02 17:23:47 acdw so like: "20 text/gemini", $(cat .mollyhead), $(ls *.gmi) <<<< is kind of the thing
2020-11-02 17:23:50 acdw fair enough
2020-11-02 17:23:52 ddevault you could accomplish it with a CGI script, yeah
2020-11-02 17:23:59 acdw and path re-writing?
2020-11-02 17:24:08 ddevault nah, just an index-specific route
2020-11-02 17:24:09 acdw that isn't the same as a redirect, right>
2020-11-02 17:24:11 acdw oh okay
2020-11-02 17:24:22 ddevault [example.org=/foo]cgi=on index=.index.sh
2020-11-02 17:24:36 ddevault [example.org:/foo]root=/srv/gemini
2020-11-02 17:24:40 ddevault add that root to the first one too
2020-11-02 17:24:52 ddevault note: = routing is not implemented, but it'd be a trivial patch if you want this
2020-11-02 17:25:30 acdw oh dope! what do you mean by = routing?
2020-11-02 17:25:59 ddevault : routes based on the path prefix
2020-11-02 17:26:07 ddevault :/foo would match /foo, /foo/bar.txt, /foo/bar/baz.txt, etc
2020-11-02 17:26:16 ddevault = routes (are supposed) to only route on an exact match
2020-11-02 17:26:27 ddevault =/foo would ONLY route for /foo, not /foo/bar.txt or /foo/bar/baz.txt
2020-11-02 17:26:51 acdw OH okay :) yeah that'd be cool ... you don't want it implemented? i.e., i'd fork your project?
2020-11-02 17:27:11 ddevault I do want it implemented
2020-11-02 17:27:17 ddevault if you write a patch send it upstream
2020-11-02 17:27:27 ddevault I don't really accept feature requests, I accept patches
2020-11-02 17:27:32 acdw right right
2020-11-02 17:27:54 acdw okay i don't know c very well, but i can take a look -- if it's trivial i can prolly figure it out
2020-11-02 17:48:35 kiedtl is there a tool to convert HTML to gemtext?
2020-11-02 17:49:06 ddevault don't convert HTML to gemtext
2020-11-02 17:49:17 ddevault do it by hand and editorial discretion to fit the content into the medium smoothly
2020-11-02 17:49:24 ddevault otherwise you'll just produce crappy gemtext as a second-class citizen
2020-11-02 17:49:30 acdw kiedtl: i think there's a few actually
2020-11-02 17:50:45 acdw tho i agree, it'd be easier to go gemtext => html than the other way round
2020-11-02 17:52:22 acdw kiedtl: i think sean @ conman.org does that -- you could email and ask?
2020-11-02 17:53:08 kiedtl I'm not sure i understand... you mean that sean will convert any HTML I send to him...?
2020-11-02 17:54:03 acdw no, he probably has a method he uses to convert it
2020-11-02 17:54:07 acdw so you could as what he does
2020-11-02 17:54:15 kiedtl lol. that's what I thought.
2020-11-02 17:54:19 ★ kiedtl looks
2020-11-02 17:54:22 acdw haha
2020-11-02 17:54:38 acdw there are other tools i've heard of too --- maybe search the mailing list? google is not v gemini-friendly
2020-11-02 17:54:51 acdw (nor duckduckgo, i say before yall lambaste me)
2020-11-02 17:54:55 kiedtl is there a way to search the ML archives?
2020-11-02 17:55:31 acdw uhhhhh
2020-11-02 17:55:44 kiedtl doesn't look like there is >.>
2020-11-02 17:56:15 acdw try a site:https://lists.orbitalfox.eu/archives/gemini/ thing
2020-11-02 17:56:20 acdw in a search engine
2020-11-02 17:57:18 kiedtl oh, forgot about that.
2020-11-02 17:57:38 acdw https://lists.orbitalfox.eu/archives/gemini/2020/002219.html <- this msg might help
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2020-11-02 18:35:42 kiedtl this seems to work really well: https://github.com/LukeEmmet/html2gmi-cli
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2020-11-02 19:18:58 kiedtl Should gemini->web proxys render preformatted blocks as simple <pre> elements or as a "full-blows" code block -- ie, one with a dark background and a scrollbar?
2020-11-02 19:23:20 admicos i personally would expect preformatted blocks to show up at least full height. if someone uses them for some ascii art for example, having a scrollbar next to it wouldn't exactly be nice
2020-11-02 19:27:48 ew0k I think it would be horizontal scrollbar, though, wouldn’t it?
2020-11-02 19:30:11 admicos oh yeah that would be harder to deal with w/o a scrollbar, wouldn't it
2020-11-02 19:31:52 aravk maybe it should be depending upon any info given in the preformatted block tag thing
2020-11-02 19:32:23 aravk e.g. if it's the name of a recognized programming language yeah make it look like a code block (and highlight syntax optionally)
2020-11-02 19:32:54 aravk otherwise just show the full thing (but a horizontal/vertical scrollbar may be needed if it's too big)
2020-11-02 19:33:43 @tomasino or maybe it should show the alt text as a button and then reveal the contents in a modal.
2020-11-02 19:33:49 @tomasino not really a suggestion
2020-11-02 19:33:51 @tomasino it's a client decision
2020-11-02 19:33:56 @tomasino do whatever
2020-11-02 19:34:01 @tomasino make more varieties
2020-11-02 19:34:36 kiedtl Looks like I was under the illusion that the client should do absolutely nothing except turn off formatting for those blocks (i.e., show no scrollbars, button with modals, whatever)
2020-11-02 19:35:15 @tomasino that's a valid client too
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2020-11-02 19:36:08 kiedtl s/should/must/
2020-11-02 19:37:13 admicos unlike html, the client is the one responsible for look and feel in gemini
2020-11-02 19:37:19 admicos do whatever feels like the correct choice
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2020-11-02 20:16:50 acdw ~you do you~ <- gemini motto
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2020-11-02 20:43:06 khuxkm so earlier somebody (I think it was the Dioscuri person) was talking about a server that can take a JSON body with an operator, left and right operands, and do the math and return a result?
2020-11-02 20:43:19 khuxkm well I just did that with CGI in Gemini gemini://tilde.team/~khuxkm/math.gmi
2020-11-02 20:43:42 khuxkm I know I'm missing the point but I just wanted to show that it is in fact possible via Gemini as it sits right now
2020-11-02 20:44:12 @tomasino gemini calculator?
2020-11-02 20:44:21 khuxkm kinda?
2020-11-02 20:44:24 @tomasino just pass the string to bc and return?
2020-11-02 20:44:30 khuxkm no it does Python stuff
2020-11-02 20:44:39 khuxkm because it's just a proof of concept
2020-11-02 20:44:39 @tomasino fancy!
2020-11-02 20:45:06 @tomasino how about a +1 function. You give it a number and it gives you back that number +1
2020-11-02 20:45:10 @tomasino super useful
2020-11-02 20:46:30 acdw that'd be dope
2020-11-02 20:46:41 acdw gemini://example.com/+1?6
2020-11-02 20:46:52 @tomasino oooh, a + in the URL
2020-11-02 20:46:53 @tomasino fancy
2020-11-02 20:47:12 khuxkm gimme a second
2020-11-02 20:47:19 @tomasino you wanna take a query param or just have it hitcha with a input query?
2020-11-02 20:47:30 acdw ah shit, invalid json
2020-11-02 20:47:40 acdw tomasino: both -- that's how gemini works
2020-11-02 20:47:45 @tomasino oh, good
2020-11-02 20:47:46 khuxkm it'll probably be more like gemini://tilde.team/~khuxkm/+1/?6
2020-11-02 20:47:56 acdw that's okay ... i guess :{P
2020-11-02 20:48:05 @tomasino greatest gemini page yet
2020-11-02 20:48:21 acdw there should also be a -1
2020-11-02 20:48:29 @tomasino now you're just getting crazy
2020-11-02 20:49:18 khuxkm why not have a -1 too?
2020-11-02 20:49:37 khuxkm just gimme a sec, I'm doing this on my phone
2020-11-02 20:50:13 acdw wait, hear me out ..... a +2
2020-11-02 20:50:15 acdw !?!?!?!??!?
2020-11-02 20:52:25 @tomasino i don't even know who you are anymore
2020-11-02 20:52:45 acdw i lost em
2020-11-02 20:52:51 acdw i flew too close to the sun
2020-11-02 20:55:46 khuxkm sorry was too busy typing
2020-11-02 20:56:27 khuxkm right now I'm having the issue that tilde.team's gemini server apparently doesn't recognize +1 as a folder name
2020-11-02 20:57:30 acdw poop
2020-11-02 20:57:33 acdw plus1?
2020-11-02 20:57:43 acdw 1+ maybe?
2020-11-02 20:57:48 acdw emacs-style
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2020-11-02 20:58:01 khuxkm nah, I just went with `plus_one`
2020-11-02 20:58:13 acdw haah
2020-11-02 20:58:16 khuxkm wait
2020-11-02 20:58:45 khuxkm HAH
2020-11-02 20:58:55 khuxkm AV-98's path parsing is broken
2020-11-02 20:59:00 acdw GASP
2020-11-02 20:59:10 khuxkm either that or the server's path parsing, but I somehow doubt that
2020-11-02 20:59:28 khuxkm it treats the plus sign... AS A SPACE!
2020-11-02 20:59:32 acdw :O
2020-11-02 20:59:35 acdw the horror
2020-11-02 21:00:14 admicos won't someone think of the mathematicians
2020-11-02 21:00:37 acdw n
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2020-11-02 21:01:27 khuxkm >Spaces in gemini URIs should be encoded as %20, not +.
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2020-11-02 21:02:52 acdw truth
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2020-11-02 21:04:29 khuxkm that's from the spec though
2020-11-02 21:04:38 acdw right, so double truth
2020-11-02 21:06:13 @tomasino wait, underscores in URLS?
2020-11-02 21:06:14 @tomasino ugh
2020-11-02 21:06:16 @tomasino terrible
2020-11-02 21:06:24 @tomasino :)
2020-11-02 21:10:27 khuxkm I just verified that it is, in fact, on the client side
2020-11-02 21:10:57 acdw aw
2020-11-02 21:13:41 ★ khuxkm preps pull request to AV-98
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2020-11-02 21:15:01 acdw noice
2020-11-02 21:15:11 kayw i really need to finish my client :(
2020-11-02 21:15:54 acdw me toooooooo
2020-11-02 21:18:59 makeworld https://portal.mozz.us/gemini/makeworld.gq/gus-graph/graph.png?raw=1
2020-11-02 21:19:01 makeworld Eyy
2020-11-02 21:19:37 makeworld GUS has finished indexing and geminispace has really grown
2020-11-02 21:20:05 acdw uhh what happened b/w 2020-09-20 and now?
2020-11-02 21:20:08 acdw lots more pages
2020-11-02 21:20:24 makeworld GUS didn't index for a while
2020-11-02 21:20:28 makeworld So it looks like a large jump
2020-11-02 21:20:38 acdw OH okay
2020-11-02 21:20:44 kayw woah
2020-11-02 21:20:48 kayw yeah that's super cool
2020-11-02 21:21:05 kayw i wonder when I first spun up my gemini server
2020-11-02 21:21:17 kayw would be cool if gus.guru could give that information
2020-11-02 21:22:25 kayw oh right
2020-11-02 21:22:39 kayw i announced it on the mailing list, so some time around June 5th
2020-11-02 21:22:58 acdw lol
2020-11-02 21:27:19 raiz ddevault: there's no way of running applications compiled against openssl11 from ports without having to manually set LD_LIBRARY_PATH, the unfortunate, but not a big deal, the tricky part is having LD_LIBRARY_PATH specified in the rc script initializing gmnisrv which I haven't figured out yet (if it's even possible). Another thing to consider is when compiling gmnisrv on OpenBSD
2020-11-02 21:27:19 raiz you'd have to specify --with-mimedb=/usr/share/misc/mime.types for it work. at this stage, in my opinion, we could theoratically run gmnisrv on OpenBSD, but not in a clean way with so many workarounds, it's too much work to get it running smoothly on OpenBSD that I'm not interested in doing and I assume you aren't either. So here's what I ended up with anyway:
2020-11-02 21:27:20 raiz https://ttm.sh/dhk.diff
2020-11-02 21:27:54 ddevault helping with the BearSSL port would probably be your wisest move here
2020-11-02 21:28:17 raiz haven't looked at bearssl
2020-11-02 21:28:21 ★ raiz searches
2020-11-02 21:29:22 ddevault specifying --with-mimedb is working as designed
2020-11-02 21:29:40 ddevault the purpose of that is to smooth over differences between OSes like that
2020-11-02 21:31:46 raiz hey, bearssl sounds promising
2020-11-02 21:31:55 raiz although they state it is still in beta stage
2020-11-02 21:32:09 raiz that explains why it isn't in ports yet
2020-11-02 21:32:22 raiz (or maybe no one bothered writing a port)
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2020-11-02 21:52:34 lukee khuxkm and acdw: if you want to do arbitrary arithmetic in gemini, I feel obliged to share this gemini app with you
2020-11-02 21:52:42 lukee gemini://gemini.marmaladefoo.com/cgi-bin/calc.cgi?0
2020-11-02 21:53:35 ★ lukee is still catching up with all the GUS updates.
2020-11-02 21:53:43 acdw :O
2020-11-02 21:53:44 acdw awesome
2020-11-02 21:54:02 @tomasino i mean, it's cool and all, but did you see +1?
2020-11-02 21:54:06 @tomasino that's where the science happens
2020-11-02 21:55:03 lukee I see the code, but its not live?
2020-11-02 21:55:10 acdw that's the REAL Magic
2020-11-02 21:55:16 acdw gemini's first VC-backed SAAS
2020-11-02 21:55:21 ★ lukee scratches his head
2020-11-02 21:55:39 lukee So... the user provides the runtime?
2020-11-02 21:58:31 acdw don't they always/
2020-11-02 21:59:02 lukee my mentally executed C++ runtime is very slow
2020-11-02 21:59:46 lukee I thought it would be a live app, so I have to execute the python in my head?!
2020-11-02 22:00:10 lukee like debugging I suppose
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2020-11-02 22:23:38 khuxkm gemini://tilde.team/~khuxkm/+1/ apparently it was an issue with my server all along
2020-11-02 22:23:42 khuxkm either way it's live now
2020-11-02 22:23:45 khuxkm same with -1
2020-11-02 22:23:49 khuxkm and now I'm gonna do +2
2020-11-02 22:24:28 khuxkm +2 is now also live
2020-11-02 22:25:52 kiedtl "Failed to get header: failed to read header: EOF" <- from amfora
2020-11-02 22:25:54 lukee it doesnt work for me - you need to encode the + in the URL to %2B otherwise its not properly escaped
2020-11-02 22:26:03 kiedtl ah
2020-11-02 22:26:05 ~tiwesdaeg lagrange and kristall do not like that link
2020-11-02 22:26:37 kiedtl lukee: Now I get 50 not found errors
2020-11-02 22:27:05 lukee well either way its not working properly yet I think
2020-11-02 22:27:12 khuxkm tbf I don't use amfora
2020-11-02 22:27:24 khuxkm the one time I tried it didn't seem to give an input prompt
2020-11-02 22:27:44 khuxkm oh wait
2020-11-02 22:27:46 khuxkm nvm
2020-11-02 22:27:47 kiedtl bombadillo also gives a not found erorr
2020-11-02 22:27:49 lukee I meant to say "+" ought to be encoded as "%2B" as far as gemini requires it. But it doesnt mean the server will handle it correctly
2020-11-02 22:27:50 kiedtl *error
2020-11-02 22:27:52 khuxkm ...or
2020-11-02 22:28:04 khuxkm it shouldn't need to be encoded
2020-11-02 22:28:09 khuxkm but gimme a sec
2020-11-02 22:28:34 lukee no it does need to be encoded to be a correct gemini percent encoded url, I think
2020-11-02 22:29:16 khuxkm no
2020-11-02 22:29:25 khuxkm pluses in gemini don't encode anything
2020-11-02 22:29:30 khuxkm spaces are encoded as %20
2020-11-02 22:29:48 khuxkm try it again
2020-11-02 22:29:56 khuxkm the actual URL I posted, not the percent encoded one
2020-11-02 22:30:04 khuxkm it should work now
2020-11-02 22:30:09 kiedtl the plus one still does not work.
2020-11-02 22:30:32 lukee + is a reserved character, so it should be encoded https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percent-encoding
2020-11-02 22:30:36 kiedtl not to mention that I don't see a "+1" directory in /home/khuxkm
2020-11-02 22:30:44 kiedtl just -1, 1, 2, and 5q
2020-11-02 22:30:48 khuxkm JUST DO IT FFS
2020-11-02 22:30:52 khuxkm I've taken care of it
2020-11-02 22:30:54 khuxkm it should work
2020-11-02 22:30:59 kiedtl yes, your majesty
2020-11-02 22:31:04 kiedtl in any case, it doesn't work.
2020-11-02 22:31:05 khuxkm listen to shia lebeouf and just do it
2020-11-02 22:31:33 khuxkm then your client is broken, because requesting gemini://tilde.team/~khuxkm/+1/ works for me, even at the bare metal
2020-11-02 22:31:43 khuxkm (the bare metal being Python ssl socket stuff)
2020-11-02 22:32:06 kiedtl repeating "just do it" three times won't change the fact that the file isn't there and no client I try will find it.
2020-11-02 22:32:08 khuxkm https://proxy.vulpes.one/gemini/tilde.team/~khuxkm/+1/
2020-11-02 22:32:13 khuxkm it works
2020-11-02 22:32:14 khuxkm see
2020-11-02 22:32:20 kiedtl idk then
2020-11-02 22:32:29 khuxkm what client are you using?
2020-11-02 22:32:34 kiedtl amfora, gemini
2020-11-02 22:32:36 kiedtl err
2020-11-02 22:32:40 kiedtl I mean amfora, bombadillo
2020-11-02 22:33:07 khuxkm well, AV-98 can find it, and I can request it from the ssl socket, so it must be something in amfora and bombadillo
2020-11-02 22:33:16 kiedtl Let me try another client, then.
2020-11-02 22:33:25 lukee if you put + into a well behaved client, it ought to encode it as %2B which is what the server will see
2020-11-02 22:33:32 khuxkm no it shouldn't
2020-11-02 22:33:37 khuxkm if you put in a +, it should send a plus
2020-11-02 22:33:51 lukee no, that's a reserved character, so it ought to be encoded
2020-11-02 22:34:03 khuxkm well if I wanted it encoded, I'd f***ing encode it
2020-11-02 22:34:08 khuxkm it shouldn't be encoded
2020-11-02 22:34:17 lukee ah well, whatever
2020-11-02 22:34:17 khuxkm so if your client is encoding it, that's your problem
2020-11-02 22:34:30 ★ khuxkm downloads amfora to test
2020-11-02 22:34:39 lukee my client wont send an invalid url to your server
2020-11-02 22:35:27 khuxkm but that's the thing
2020-11-02 22:35:33 khuxkm it's not an invalid URL
2020-11-02 22:35:38 lukee yes it is
2020-11-02 22:35:43 khuxkm no it isn't
2020-11-02 22:35:51 khuxkm the plus becomes a space, which is what I've accounted for
2020-11-02 22:35:55 khuxkm the folder is ' 1'
2020-11-02 22:36:05 kiedtl mhm
2020-11-02 22:36:05 lukee you are thinking of web encoding, not percent encoding
2020-11-02 22:36:22 lukee plus does not become a space in percent encoding
2020-11-02 22:36:37 khuxkm well it does in a URL
2020-11-02 22:36:40 lukee gemini does not use the same url encoding as the web
2020-11-02 22:36:41 khuxkm which is what we're talking about
2020-11-02 22:37:02 khuxkm >Resources hosted via Gemini are identified using URIs with the scheme "gemini". This scheme is syntactically compatible with the generic URI syntax defined in RFC 3986, but does not support all components of the generic syntax.
2020-11-02 22:37:09 kiedtl reading tilde.team/~khuxkm/+1 with openssl return "31 gemini://tilde.team/~khuxkm/+1"
2020-11-02 22:37:27 kiedtl but replacing the plus with a space works
2020-11-02 22:37:57 khuxkm ?
2020-11-02 22:38:03 kiedtl ?
2020-11-02 22:38:22 khuxkm I'm telling you, I requested gemini://tilde.team/~khuxkm/+1/ on an SSL socket in Python and it got through
2020-11-02 22:38:44 kiedtl I don't know about your ssl socket, but if I can't get it to work on three clients then something is wrong.
2020-11-02 22:38:47 lukee see https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3986#section-2.1
2020-11-02 22:40:05 lukee I say all this with empathy, as the first gemini server app I put up, I used the standard web encoding, which didnt work with the gemini clients
2020-11-02 22:40:19 lukee then I fixed it
2020-11-02 22:40:32 khuxkm well in that case, it's tilde.team's server that's at fault
2020-11-02 22:40:39 kiedtl can confirm it works with AV-98 though.
2020-11-02 22:40:40 khuxkm because it uses web encoding
2020-11-02 22:40:42 lukee could be
2020-11-02 22:41:05 khuxkm but yeah it works with AV-98 though
2020-11-02 22:42:38 lukee the correct URL you should handle should be gemini://tilde.team/~khuxkm/%2B1
2020-11-02 22:43:01 lukee (as far as I understand it)
2020-11-02 22:43:19 kiedtl wait, is space encoded as %20?
2020-11-02 22:43:26 lukee yes
2020-11-02 22:43:46 kiedtl if the folder name is ' 1', one would expect %201 to work in the url, no? it doesn't.
2020-11-02 22:43:53 khuxkm it doesn't? it should
2020-11-02 22:43:59 khuxkm the folder name is literally ' 1'
2020-11-02 22:44:27 lukee oh hang on, there is a crossed wire here. I thought you want to have an end point called "+1" not " 1"
2020-11-02 22:44:41 khuxkm https://bpa.st/XBOQ
2020-11-02 22:44:41 kiedtl He's trying to get the client to convert "+" to " "
2020-11-02 22:44:45 kiedtl I think
2020-11-02 22:44:45 lukee in that case it should be gemini://tilde.team/~khuxkm/%201
2020-11-02 22:44:55 khuxkm no, I want +1
2020-11-02 22:45:11 lukee so gemini://tilde.team/~khuxkm/%2B1
2020-11-02 22:45:13 khuxkm but the server decodes +1 as ' 1' and not a literal '+1'
2020-11-02 22:45:42 lukee thats a server accepting an invalid URL, but trying to do something with it
2020-11-02 22:45:57 khuxkm >If a reserved character is found in a URI component and no delimiting role is known for that character, then it must be interpreted as representing the data octet corresponding to that character's encoding in US-ASCII.
2020-11-02 22:46:10 khuxkm so actually it's a server incorrectly doing something with a valid url
2020-11-02 22:46:35 khuxkm as the gemini scheme doesn't define a delimiting role for the reserved character '+'
2020-11-02 22:46:40 khuxkm so I was right :P
2020-11-02 22:46:51 khuxkm (that quote is from RFC 3986)
2020-11-02 22:47:31 lukee well clients should send it as %2B and the server app should handle it as "+" as its a reserved character
2020-11-02 22:48:45 khuxkm URI producing applications should percent-encode it, yes, but that isn't a must
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2020-11-02 22:49:05 dacav Hi. As author of a little atom/rss client, I'm investigating the feasibility of adding gemini support to it. Unfortunately I've never played around with TLS. Is here anyone I can ask a couple of questions about it?
2020-11-02 22:49:27 khuxkm the point is that the plus sign should be percent-encoded, but if it isn't percent-encoded it should be left alone
2020-11-02 22:49:41 khuxkm dacav: depends, what language is your client written in
2020-11-02 22:49:48 dacav khuxkm: plain C
2020-11-02 22:49:49 lukee "URI producing applications should percent-encode data octets that
2020-11-02 22:49:49 lukee correspond to characters in the reserved set unless these characters
2020-11-02 22:49:49 lukee are specifically allowed by the URI scheme to represent data in that
2020-11-02 22:49:49 lukee component. "
2020-11-02 22:50:07 khuxkm hmm, then I can't help you there dacav
2020-11-02 22:50:09 khuxkm maybe someone else
2020-11-02 22:50:19 khuxkm lukee: "should", not "must"
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2020-11-02 22:50:29 dacav thanks anywa khuxkm :)
2020-11-02 22:50:36 khuxkm lukee: also my quote is immediately after that one
2020-11-02 22:52:16 lukee my reading is that is the fall back, but clients should encode it
2020-11-02 22:52:23 khuxkm yes, as I said:
2020-11-02 22:52:25 lukee so most gemini clients will
2020-11-02 22:52:32 khuxkm >URI producing applications should percent-encode it, yes, but that isn't a must
2020-11-02 22:52:43 khuxkm the issue here lies in the fact that my server isn't doing that
2020-11-02 22:52:46 lukee and so the server ought to handle the correctly encoded version
2020-11-02 22:53:08 khuxkm the + decodes to space because it's using application/www-form-urlencoded encoding instead of URL percent encoding
2020-11-02 22:53:10 lukee yes it seems so - could be the decoding library used by the server or the server app
2020-11-02 22:53:14 khuxkm which is on the server
2020-11-02 22:53:20 lukee makes sense
2020-11-02 22:53:38 khuxkm I don't remember what server tilde.team uses
2020-11-02 22:54:09 khuxkm it uses gemserv; just checked /etc/systemd/system
2020-11-02 22:55:01 khuxkm so that's int80h's fault
2020-11-02 22:55:23 ★ khuxkm clones code
2020-11-02 22:55:36 khuxkm it's in rust, of course it is
2020-11-02 22:55:44 ★ khuxkm deep dive
2020-11-02 22:55:55 @ben i wonder if there are any new commits upstream
2020-11-02 22:57:36 khuxkm https://docs.rs/url/2.1.1/url/ this is the crate it uses
2020-11-02 22:59:00 khuxkm and afaict it doesn't mangle the result of url::Url::parse
2020-11-02 22:59:04 kevinsan dacav: you should just ask your question, there are people here who could answer if they are around. In the meantime, here is some C code for a Gemini client that does TLS well https://git.sr.ht/~sircmpwn/gmni
2020-11-02 23:02:37 khuxkm it says it follows the URL Standard (which is a WHATWG document) but it really doesn't
2020-11-02 23:03:26 khuxkm https://url.spec.whatwg.org/#path-state this is the state taken when decoding the path
2020-11-02 23:04:04 khuxkm note the lack of "if c is U+002B (+), append a space to url's path"
2020-11-02 23:05:41 makeworld khuxkm: Wait, is Amfora doing something wrong
2020-11-02 23:06:14 khuxkm uh
2020-11-02 23:06:32 khuxkm i don't even know at this point
2020-11-02 23:06:35 khuxkm this is too weird
2020-11-02 23:06:53 makeworld Also, my 2 cents here is that gemini URLs are supposed to only use percent-encoding and not really use pluses for anything
2020-11-02 23:07:10 khuxkm in this case, though, I'm using a plus as a plus
2020-11-02 23:07:23 makeworld Which would then be encoded as %2B
2020-11-02 23:07:30 khuxkm but basically there's this rust crate that claims to follow a standard but it actually does a lousy job at following that standard
2020-11-02 23:07:32 makeworld There shouldn't be raw pluses sent over the wire
2020-11-02 23:07:38 makeworld Aw damn :(
2020-11-02 23:07:52 makeworld In Go this looks like: strings.ReplaceAll(url.PathEscape(query), "+", "%2B")
2020-11-02 23:07:54 khuxkm well that's fine and dandy but the thing is, a raw plus sent over the wire should still technically work
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2020-11-02 23:08:00 khuxkm it should
2020-11-02 23:08:08 khuxkm that being said you should percent encode it anyways
2020-11-02 23:08:13 makeworld Maybe it will work, but it's not something you're supposed to rely on
2020-11-02 23:08:14 makeworld Yeah
2020-11-02 23:08:26 makeworld Like it's "off spec"
2020-11-02 23:08:30 makeworld My understanding anyway
2020-11-02 23:08:38 khuxkm but the crate `url` in Rust does a lousy job of following the WHATWG URL Standard
2020-11-02 23:08:56 khuxkm https://url.spec.whatwg.org/#path-state this is the state of the parser when decoding the path
2020-11-02 23:09:12 khuxkm it doesn't say to do anything to a plus, but the crate turns the plus into a space anyways
2020-11-02 23:09:30 lukee most URL libraries assume form encoded web context for encoding
2020-11-02 23:09:41 khuxkm well this is *decoding*
2020-11-02 23:09:42 lukee you have to search out the percent encoding ones. I know I did
2020-11-02 23:09:50 lukee applies to both ends
2020-11-02 23:09:58 lukee but yes
2020-11-02 23:10:40 khuxkm well the point I'm trying to make is that this is parsing a URL and it therefore violates spec
2020-11-02 23:10:59 khuxkm it may assume it's decoding form data but that's an incorrect assumption
2020-11-02 23:11:02 lukee take it up with the dev
2020-11-02 23:11:55 khuxkm i will >:)
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2020-11-02 23:23:47 khuxkm actually I wonder
2020-11-02 23:27:06 khuxkm I don't even know what's going on here
2020-11-02 23:27:25 khuxkm as far as I can tell there's nothing in here that should cause + to decode to 0x20
2020-11-02 23:29:26 acdw9 it's me khuxkm -- i'm sneaking into the Internet and changing all your +s to %20s
2020-11-02 23:30:02 jcowan khuxkm: Thanks for doing that demo. It doesn't seem to work for me (my client is Lagrange.
2020-11-02 23:30:41 jcowan Of course, you're limited on input to the size of a URI.
2020-11-02 23:32:39 khuxkm jcowan: give me a second and I'll just move it to gemini://tilde.team/~khuxkm/plus_one/
2020-11-02 23:32:48 khuxkm my tolerance for weird programming stuff is growing thin
2020-11-02 23:33:06 khuxkm there, it's moved
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2020-11-02 23:38:54 jcowan Still not accessible with either Lagrange or openssl s_client
2020-11-02 23:49:47 makeworld Neither with Amfora: Failed to get header: failed to read header: EOF.
2020-11-02 23:50:03 makeworld Your header isn't complete or doesn't exist
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2020-11-02 23:53:05 makeworld khuxkm: You're not ending your header with \r\n, just \n
2020-11-02 23:53:37 makeworld printf 'gemini://tilde.team/~khuxkm/plus_one/\r\n' | openssl s_client -quiet -connect tilde.team:1965 | hexdump -C
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2020-11-03 00:05:25 khuxkm ah
2020-11-03 00:06:09 khuxkm I find it weird that you can send text in the response body with just a \n but you need a \r
2020-11-03 00:06:12 khuxkm in the header
2020-11-03 00:06:47 khuxkm this explains why it works in AV-98; AV-98 just handles the "incorrect" header and gives the response
2020-11-03 00:07:58 khuxkm try it now?
2020-11-03 00:14:02 khuxkm ...what the fuck
2020-11-03 00:14:19 khuxkm https://git.sr.ht/~int80h/gemserv/tree/master/src/main.rs#L313
2020-11-03 00:14:29 khuxkm which calls https://git.sr.ht/~int80h/gemserv/tree/master/src/util.rs#L3
2020-11-03 00:14:37 khuxkm ...so it's actually int80h's fault this whole time
2020-11-03 00:15:09 ★ khuxkm is anger
2020-11-03 00:15:22 khuxkm so it's not actually the url crate
2020-11-03 00:15:31 khuxkm it's actually gemserv itself
2020-11-03 00:15:34 khuxkm what the hell
2020-11-03 00:20:58 khuxkm and int is currently deployed in .ok.us (gemini://80h.dev/~int/glog/2020-10-03-Army-What.gemini
2020-11-03 00:21:01 khuxkm )
2020-11-03 00:28:28 makeworld It works now
2020-11-03 00:28:52 makeworld The /plus_one/ thing I mean
2020-11-03 00:28:56 khuxkm yeah
2020-11-03 00:29:16 khuxkm the /+1/ should also work because I specifically crafted the path to handle int's weird URL handling
2020-11-03 00:29:23 ★ khuxkm checks
2020-11-03 00:29:56 khuxkm huh
2020-11-03 00:29:58 makeworld Amfora says not found
2020-11-03 00:29:59 khuxkm apparently it doesn't
2020-11-03 00:30:02 khuxkm wait
2020-11-03 00:30:12 khuxkm one sec
2020-11-03 00:30:33 makeworld Even when I enocode it myself
2020-11-03 00:30:41 khuxkm it works now
2020-11-03 00:30:46 khuxkm I mistyped
2020-11-03 00:31:06 khuxkm well I didn't mistype; I moved the folder to plus_one
2020-11-03 00:31:14 khuxkm so obviously it wouldn't be under the +1 in any case
2020-11-03 00:31:44 khuxkm but after I moved it back, it works
2020-11-03 00:32:01 khuxkm at least, on the version of Amfora on kiosk@gemini.circumlunar.space
2020-11-03 00:32:59 makeworld Hmm it does
2020-11-03 00:33:08 makeworld But not when I manually encode it
2020-11-03 00:34:06 khuxkm well of course not; if you manually encode the plus then it would request a folder named +1
2020-11-03 00:34:17 khuxkm let me try a soft symlink to make that work
2020-11-03 00:35:10 khuxkm there, now it should work in both cases
2020-11-03 00:36:35 makeworld Ok it does phew
2020-11-03 00:36:49 makeworld I was worried Amfora was doing something weird at first
2020-11-03 00:36:57 khuxkm nope, it's just gemserv being weird
2020-11-03 00:37:02 khuxkm you're good :)
2020-11-03 00:39:20 makeworld Great :)
2020-11-03 00:40:37 CoopDot Maybe I should replace my gemserv...
2020-11-03 00:49:51 khuxkm honestly I think gemserv just needs a little bit of fixing up
2020-11-03 00:50:00 khuxkm as in, just fix that one bit and it's pretty good
2020-11-03 00:50:19 khuxkm but with int80h being deployed, that's not likely to happen until circa Christmastime
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2020-11-03 01:34:49 kayw they're deployed? i never knew that
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2020-11-03 02:32:01 kiedtl acdw: re gemini motto: or, in other words, "blame the client" ;)
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2020-11-03 03:28:49 acdw gemserv?
2020-11-03 03:29:09 acdw also lol
2020-11-03 03:29:37 acdw fun fact; gemserv is also https://www.gemserv.com/
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2020-11-03 05:05:13 acdw hmm gmnisrv's auto index doesn't have an ending newline...
2020-11-03 05:07:20 acdw fyi ddevault
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2020-11-03 05:50:46 ew0k Good morning!
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2020-11-03 08:24:43 ew0k kiedtl: was it you who wanted nested lists in gemini?
2020-11-03 08:42:37 dacav kevinsan: thanks for the hint, I'll check out (https://git.sr.ht/~sircmpwn/gmni)
2020-11-03 08:44:25 dacav It might be exactly what I need to get started :)
2020-11-03 08:45:32 ew0k I just looked at Kristall, and was really intimidated. My own graphical gemini client will *never* be that awesome :D
2020-11-03 08:45:44 ew0k different design goals, though
2020-11-03 08:46:50 dacav ew0k: what is your goal? :)
2020-11-03 08:49:03 ew0k dacav: minimal dependencies, run on Raspbian's Pixel desktop (which I currently have no way to *test*, honestly), and.. uh... made by me :D
2020-11-03 08:49:37 ew0k It's basically an excuse to fiddle around with python, tkinter, and doodle some icons in inkscape :D
2020-11-03 08:54:41 dacav :) we *always* need excuses
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2020-11-03 08:58:46 ew0k indeed we do!
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2020-11-03 12:36:53 ew0k The latest mail on the ML says (jokingly) that gemini "allows embedding content through data URI magic"... what does that mean?
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2020-11-03 12:51:35 aravk ew0k: I suppose they're talking about the data: scheme that allows you to embed arbitrary base64-encoded data in the RUL
2020-11-03 12:51:39 aravk s/RUL/URL/g
2020-11-03 12:52:14 kiedtl ew0k: yeah. wild dreams.
2020-11-03 12:52:24 ew0k well, that's a completely different scheme though... Sounds like that has nothing to do with gemini
2020-11-03 12:52:26 aravk https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTTP/Basics_of_HTTP/Data_URIs
2020-11-03 12:52:43 ew0k kiedtl: I thought of a specification change along those lines that I would support.
2020-11-03 12:52:52 kiedtl oh?
2020-11-03 12:53:02 kiedtl I mean, I also want tables and inline images ;P
2020-11-03 12:53:29 aravk neither are happening though kiedtl
2020-11-03 12:53:40 aravk some clients do allow inlining linked images
2020-11-03 12:53:49 aravk and you can make tables by hand in preformatted spaces
2020-11-03 12:53:52 ew0k kiedtl: basically, gmi is line-based. Nested lists imply hierarchies, which makes parsing difficult. The only exception we have in that area is ```, by necessity
2020-11-03 12:54:07 ew0k All other lines can be parsed by just looking at the first two-three chars
2020-11-03 12:54:38 ew0k But. We could have list items with *different indentation*
2020-11-03 12:54:53 ew0k like, "*", " *" and " *"
2020-11-03 12:55:09 ew0k three indentation levels, but only three chars at the start to parse
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2020-11-03 12:55:39 ew0k I mean, if you wanna convert to html you still have to keep track of which nesting level you're at, but that ain't gemini's problem :D
2020-11-03 12:56:19 ew0k and it's not really breaking anything either; the only consequence for a browser that isn't implementing it yet is just that it looks like an ordinary line
2020-11-03 12:56:47 ew0k so it adds two more line types, but doesn't really make anything more complex
2020-11-03 12:58:48 kiedtl I have an idea for tables which would allow line-based parsing though
2020-11-03 12:59:54 kiedtl aravk: why couldn't we have special syntax for inline images that was exactly like the syntax for links, but with a different prefix (e.g. "=@")? Then terminal clients could render it just like a normal link, while graphical clients could render the image itself
2020-11-03 13:04:58 aravk because client's aren't supposed to make requests automatically anyways
2020-11-03 13:05:10 kiedtl well darnit
2020-11-03 13:05:11 aravk Gemini explicitly states that (pretty sure it's there verbatim in the spec)
2020-11-03 13:05:21 aravk and it's not so much of an issue
2020-11-03 13:05:33 kiedtl it's horrible UX to not have inline images, IMHO
2020-11-03 13:05:45 aravk it's horrible UX *to you*
2020-11-03 13:05:56 aravk most people here I think don't mind
2020-11-03 13:06:28 aravk but if you want make a client that automatically fetches every link in a document, checks if it's an image, then inlines it
2020-11-03 13:06:51 aravk what do you need inline images for anyways?
2020-11-03 13:07:21 aravk and to you what's the difference in UX between an inline and non-inlined image?
2020-11-03 13:08:10 ew0k kiedtl: not that my client has gotten far, but I intend to load images inline when users click links that return image MIME types
2020-11-03 13:09:04 ew0k but as aravk says, I think the main thing here is that clients should not make requests unless users explicitly ask them to. (Which is my main argument with the favicon RFC, btw)
2020-11-03 13:09:47 aravk the favicon RFC?
2020-11-03 13:10:10 ew0k https://portal.mozz.us/gemini/mozz.us/files/rfc_gemini_favicon.gmi <-- stumbled across it this morning
2020-11-03 13:10:42 ew0k I think it was linked to from the Amfora github -- the latest Amfora version supports it, but it has to be enabled in config
2020-11-03 13:10:55 ew0k which I think is the correct way to handle that, but
2020-11-03 13:10:58 ew0k *btw
2020-11-03 13:11:50 insep oh that would be pretty cool eyecandy
2020-11-03 13:12:15 ew0k it would, but the suggestion is to fetch it pretty often
2020-11-03 13:12:38 kiedtl aravk: it's kind of annoying to have to click a link to an image when the client could just display it automatically.
2020-11-03 13:12:52 ew0k one hour or the duration of a session, whichever is shorter.
2020-11-03 13:13:00 ew0k kiedtl: annoying to you, relieving to me :D
2020-11-03 13:13:02 kiedtl btw, what vim plugin do you all use for gemtext syn highlighting?
2020-11-03 13:13:20 kiedtl ew0k: It could be disabled by default /shrug
2020-11-03 13:13:59 ew0k one of the great appeals of gemini , imho, is the fact that it doesn't load anything I haven't asked it to
2020-11-03 13:14:01 aravk kiedtl: well, how does the client know that the user wants to see the image
2020-11-03 13:14:12 kiedtl a configuration option
2020-11-03 13:14:20 aravk by supporting inline images, you're letting the server make the decision about this
2020-11-03 13:14:29 kiedtl not the server, the content creator
2020-11-03 13:14:43 aravk same thing in this context
2020-11-03 13:14:55 aravk the point of gemini is to let the user/client decide how stuff should look
2020-11-03 13:14:59 kiedtl mhm
2020-11-03 13:15:13 kiedtl like HTML
2020-11-03 13:15:18 aravk wat
2020-11-03 13:15:21 kiedtl err, sort of like HTML
2020-11-03 13:15:23 aravk *wat*
2020-11-03 13:15:27 kiedtl yeah
2020-11-03 13:15:27 insep [ew0k](https://matrix.to/#/@_xmpp_ew0k=2f=23gemini=40biboumi.tilde.team:matrix.org): i'm sure people will just cache that favicon, it's not like anyone will send favicon depending on whatever page you visited before sending request for favicon
2020-11-03 13:15:49 ew0k and -- just like the favicon -- having it disabled by default might be the best idea, but a bunch of features like that will cause people to design their capsules with those features in mind. And eventually the default becomes "enabled" because most users enable it anyway, and then new users coming from the web won't even notice... and I think it's
2020-11-03 13:15:49 ew0k a dangerous path to walk
2020-11-03 13:16:08 aravk by supporting inline images and making it an opt-out instead of opt-in feature, you are preventing the user/client from making the decision (even though it's opt-out, it should be opt-in, and that's what gemini pulls off)
2020-11-03 13:17:02 kiedtl no no
2020-11-03 13:17:12 kiedtl I thought I was clear on inline images being opt-in
2020-11-03 13:17:21 aravk well it already is opt-in
2020-11-03 13:17:30 aravk clients can opt-in support for it
2020-11-03 13:17:32 ew0k insep: probably.
2020-11-03 13:17:36 kiedtl not really
2020-11-03 13:17:41 aravk just by checking the mime result when the user clicks on a link
2020-11-03 13:18:05 aravk don't forget the 'clients don't make extra requests' stance that gemini takens
2020-11-03 13:18:22 kiedtl there should be some distinction between regular links and links the content creator thinks would be better displayed inline
2020-11-03 13:18:33 kiedtl it's a suggestion to the client to display it inline, not a rule
2020-11-03 13:18:48 aravk well, clients still won't display it inline automatically
2020-11-03 13:18:57 aravk as per gemini's "no extra requests" rule
2020-11-03 13:18:58 kiedtl not *automatically* yes
2020-11-03 13:19:06 aravk then what's the difference?
2020-11-03 13:19:19 kiedtl maybe a little button/keybind at the top the user could press to display all inline imgs?
2020-11-03 13:19:32 aravk clients can already be configured to inline images found at links
2020-11-03 13:19:38 aravk (or coded to do so)
2020-11-03 13:19:48 kiedtl how does it know the link was meant to be displayed as an *inline* image?
2020-11-03 13:19:52 aravk kiedtl: that's a client ui/ux issue, not a gemini one
2020-11-03 13:19:59 kiedtl No
2020-11-03 13:20:21 kiedtl IMHO there should be a distinction in gemtext between regular links and links to an image that could be displayed inline
2020-11-03 13:20:23 aravk a simple test would be any extension in the link name
2020-11-03 13:20:40 aravk which I think would hold up pretty well
2020-11-03 13:21:03 kiedtl But then *all* images would be displayed
2020-11-03 13:21:04 aravk in what scenario would someone *not* inline an image?
2020-11-03 13:21:06 jcowan Extensions are generally about formats: most servers use them (unfortunately) to set MIME-types
2020-11-03 13:21:29 jcowan "Click here to see an overly cute picture of the author's dog."
2020-11-03 13:21:38 kiedtl aravk: if I was linking to a nice 198mb picturesque scenery?
2020-11-03 13:21:58 aravk kiedtl: the client will notice how big it is and give up
2020-11-03 13:22:03 kiedtl I mean idk
2020-11-03 13:22:05 aravk could be configured to only looad images < 2mb
2020-11-03 13:22:25 kiedtl guess I'm just bringing my HTML mentality in here and trying to warp gemini into my previous mindset, lol
2020-11-03 13:22:31 jcowan Only if it knows about them. Absent content-length, it would have to download the whole thing first.
2020-11-03 13:22:35 aravk everyone does that, don't worry about it
2020-11-03 13:22:43 aravk jcowan: it can also stop midway
2020-11-03 13:22:50 aravk but yes, this is an argument for content-length
2020-11-03 13:22:50 jcowan True.
2020-11-03 13:23:05 aravk but many have mentioned how other protocols would be better suited to dealing with large transfers
2020-11-03 13:23:12 aravk and I think I agree with that
2020-11-03 13:23:17 jcowan Everyone wants *the* feature that really matters to them. For me, it's inline emphasis.
2020-11-03 13:23:25 kiedtl hehe
2020-11-03 13:23:30 aravk content-length was my thing up till yesterday
2020-11-03 13:23:39 ew0k jcowan: it would have to download all of it before deciding whether to inline or display otherwise anyway 🤷
2020-11-03 13:23:43 kiedtl The feature that really matters to me is tables, lol.
2020-11-03 13:24:08 aravk kiedtl: you can make them using preformatted text. What extra support would you need?
2020-11-03 13:24:14 jcowan You can emulate those with Unicode box drawing characters.
2020-11-03 13:24:22 aravk yeah, or just | + -
2020-11-03 13:24:46 jcowan The trouble with that is that "preformatted" does not necessarily imply "monowidth".
2020-11-03 13:25:09 aravk I thought the spec does say so
2020-11-03 13:25:28 ew0k and I care about resource consumption :) I'd *love* to have hashes so I don't need to fetch resources I already have cached
2020-11-03 13:25:34 aravk > Preformatted text lines should be presented to the user in a "neutral", monowidth font without any alteration to whitespace or stylistic enhancements.
2020-11-03 13:25:37 aravk from the spec
2020-11-03 13:25:44 ew0k but I get that it doesn't really belong in gemini
2020-11-03 13:25:44 jcowan yes, it does, my bad
2020-11-03 13:26:10 aravk np jcowan, we all learn something new
2020-11-03 13:26:12 ew0k jcowan: to your defense it says "should", not "must" :)
2020-11-03 13:26:24 jcowan It can hardly be *must* in a TUI client
2020-11-03 13:26:47 aravk wait, why not?
2020-11-03 13:27:04 jcowan Because TUI clients don't dictate the font they render in, the terminal settings do.
2020-11-03 13:27:47 aravk true
2020-11-03 13:27:57 aravk but I think all terminals render monowidth
2020-11-03 13:28:01 aravk god, I hope so
2020-11-03 13:28:33 aravk whoever sets a terminal to display in Comic Sans will burn one day
2020-11-03 13:28:59 ew0k aravk: so a client that uses monowidth fonts, but switches font for every letter, is fine?
2020-11-03 13:29:00 ew0k :D
2020-11-03 13:29:33 ew0k *terminal
2020-11-03 13:29:52 ★ aravk crashes
2020-11-03 13:29:54 insep [aravk](https://matrix.to/#/@_xmpp_aravk=2f=23gemini=40biboumi.tilde.team:matrix.org): i know one person who has comic sans globally enabled, they say it helps with dyslexia
2020-11-03 13:30:16 aravk huh
2020-11-03 13:30:19 ew0k insep: fair reason!
2020-11-03 13:30:21 kiedtl ASCII art is kind of a hack. For one thing, the tables can't be extracted into a machine readable format; for another thing, those tables can't be shrunk/grown depending on the screen size.
2020-11-03 13:30:22 admicos i've heard that too
2020-11-03 13:30:35 jcowan I just looked in ECMA-48, and there actually is a control sequence to specify the rendering font. Whether any terminal supports it is a question.
2020-11-03 13:30:38 admicos there are also fonts like opendyslexic that actually look semi-better
2020-11-03 13:30:50 ew0k kiedtl: true
2020-11-03 13:30:59 aravk kiedtl: it's going to be the same text size as all of your other text so why would you need to zoom in/out
2020-11-03 13:31:17 aravk plus, properly formatted tables can definitely be extracted. It's easier with Unicode box drawing chars though
2020-11-03 13:31:18 kiedtl I'm not sure I understood you
2020-11-03 13:31:27 kiedtl aravk:
2020-11-03 13:31:28 jcowan ESC [ m ; n ,
2020-11-03 13:31:39 ew0k kiedtl: link to a csv file?
2020-11-03 13:31:45 jcowan where m and n are digits 0-7 representing the fonts the terminal knows about.
2020-11-03 13:31:52 kiedtl Also, don't force me to read my tables in monowidth fonts.
2020-11-03 13:32:04 kiedtl I'd like them to use variable width fonts, just like god intended.
2020-11-03 13:32:09 aravk kiedtl: assuming that preformatted text renders at a reasonable size, why would you need to zoom in/out
2020-11-03 13:32:32 aravk clients which can change font size will have their own settings for it and will re-render preformatted tables accordingly
2020-11-03 13:32:54 aravk oh crap
2020-11-03 13:32:57 aravk I see your point
2020-11-03 13:33:01 jcowan Of course you could render your table as an image, thus reducing the problem to the previous problem.
2020-11-03 13:33:02 aravk you can't do line wrapping inside tables
2020-11-03 13:33:15 aravk jcowan: amazingly helpful xD
2020-11-03 13:33:31 aravk but a csv doesn't sound so bad
2020-11-03 13:33:52 kiedtl yeah, I just couldn't understand what you were saying for a moment, aravk. I do now though
2020-11-03 13:34:09 kiedtl Also, ASCII tables disobey the gemini rule of mixing presentation and content, no?
2020-11-03 13:34:17 aravk I guess
2020-11-03 13:34:21 aravk but so do other tables
2020-11-03 13:34:30 aravk unless you've come up with some amazing new format kiedtl
2020-11-03 13:34:34 jcowan Some content just *is* presentational, which is why it's in Unicode to start with.
2020-11-03 13:34:43 kiedtl aravk: I'm trying /shrug
2020-11-03 13:35:02 kiedtl pretty sure it'll won't make it into the spec though
2020-11-03 13:35:14 raiz you can always use HTML with gemini
2020-11-03 13:35:21 kiedtl eww
2020-11-03 13:35:25 raiz just saying
2020-11-03 13:35:29 kiedtl I may as well use HTTP then!
2020-11-03 13:35:50 raiz you get the benefits of the simpler protocol
2020-11-03 13:36:08 raiz still much better than adding tables to gemtext
2020-11-03 13:36:10 raiz imo
2020-11-03 13:36:21 aravk maybe maybe maybe raiz
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2020-11-03 13:36:25 aravk or just use csz
2020-11-03 13:36:28 aravk *csv
2020-11-03 13:36:33 raiz in gemtext?
2020-11-03 13:36:38 kiedtl ???
2020-11-03 13:36:39 aravk no, as a separate file
2020-11-03 13:36:45 aravk works well for large tables
2020-11-03 13:36:48 raiz how would that work?
2020-11-03 13:36:57 aravk link to it
2020-11-03 13:37:03 kiedtl thanks, but I'd like my tables inline...
2020-11-03 13:37:07 raiz then have a separate program process the table?
2020-11-03 13:37:14 aravk ig raiz
2020-11-03 13:37:25 aravk these are not completely thought-out plans
2020-11-03 13:37:33 raiz that'd be awkward, yeah
2020-11-03 13:38:10 kiedtl csv is terribly complex
2020-11-03 13:38:26 ew0k what html tag would you guys use for preformatted text?
2020-11-03 13:38:42 kiedtl like, what if one field contains a comma? would you escape it? goodness sake no, just quote the entire field! but what if the field contains a quote?...
2020-11-03 13:38:51 kiedtl ew0k: wouldn't <pre> work?
2020-11-03 13:39:11 ew0k kiedtl: escaping characters is a common problem
2020-11-03 13:39:46 raiz I prefer TSV since tabs are less common
2020-11-03 13:39:50 kiedtl my point is that csv does a spectacularily bad job of it
2020-11-03 13:40:03 raiz but still suffers similar problems that CSV has, nothing is perfect
2020-11-03 13:40:06 ew0k I wasn't aware of that.
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2020-11-03 13:40:36 ew0k I mean... if ',' is a separator you only need to escape it as '\,' and '\' as '\\'
2020-11-03 13:40:44 ew0k That should really be it
2020-11-03 13:40:49 kiedtl that's not how the csv spec works IIRC
2020-11-03 13:40:51 raiz yeah, no big deal
2020-11-03 13:40:58 raiz oh
2020-11-03 13:41:00 raiz no?
2020-11-03 13:41:04 ew0k kiedtl: you're probably right. I haven't read the spec for years
2020-11-03 13:41:07 kiedtl afaik you have to quote the entire field
2020-11-03 13:41:15 kiedtl "field with comma,",blah,343
2020-11-03 13:41:16 aravk what would a line-oriented way to present tables be?
2020-11-03 13:41:22 aravk one that allowed for line wrapping etc.
2020-11-03 13:41:35 kiedtl aravk: I'm still thinking out that, I'll be sure to show it here when I think I'm done :)
2020-11-03 13:41:49 kiedtl but something similar to how scdoc does tables
2020-11-03 13:41:52 raiz why not follow the HTML approach?
2020-11-03 13:42:05 aravk yeah, do row by row column by column
2020-11-03 13:42:16 kiedtl pretty much what I'm doing
2020-11-03 13:42:21 aravk although that would add too much complexity anyways to be accepted
2020-11-03 13:42:29 kiedtl oh well
2020-11-03 13:42:33 aravk it has to be a backward-compatible change
2020-11-03 13:42:34 raiz we can stop feature proposals
2020-11-03 13:42:45 raiz its not adding true value tbh
2020-11-03 13:42:53 aravk maybe wrap it in a preformatted thing using "```table"?
2020-11-03 13:43:06 raiz ^ that'd be the creative way
2020-11-03 13:43:23 raiz or just use HTML, MIME types are there for a reason
2020-11-03 13:43:38 aravk or, hear me out: text/table
2020-11-03 13:43:44 raiz lol
2020-11-03 13:43:54 raiz doesn't sound like a bad idea
2020-11-03 13:43:56 kiedtl hell yeah
2020-11-03 13:43:57 raiz .table file format?
2020-11-03 13:44:04 raiz linked from gemini document?
2020-11-03 13:44:09 aravk yep
2020-11-03 13:44:13 raiz brilliant
2020-11-03 13:44:16 raiz go for it
2020-11-03 13:44:17 aravk we'll still have to design it tho
2020-11-03 13:44:26 aravk and I want it to be simple af
2020-11-03 13:44:27 kiedtl btw, do any of you know of a good gemtext syntax highlighting plugin for vim?
2020-11-03 13:44:34 raiz just refine it to be globally accepted
2020-11-03 13:44:43 aravk someone was talking about it recently kiedtl but I never did catch the URL
2020-11-03 13:45:14 kiedtl hmm
2020-11-03 13:45:39 kiedtl guess I'll take a stab at writing my own
2020-11-03 13:45:48 ew0k hmmm... what about quote lines? What html tag would you use for that?
2020-11-03 13:45:57 kiedtl <blockquote>?
2020-11-03 13:46:09 kiedtl or just a <div> with some css styling?
2020-11-03 13:46:13 ew0k oh! I'd completely forgotten that existed! Thanks!
2020-11-03 13:46:18 kiedtl np!
2020-11-03 13:51:22 aravk kiedtl: https://github.com/kconner/vim-syntax-gemtext
2020-11-03 13:51:24 aravk found using GUS
2020-11-03 13:51:32 aravk (searched for vim syntax gemtext or smth)
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2020-11-03 13:59:43 aravk the syntax thing works really well
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2020-11-03 14:01:05 kiedtl ah, thanks aravk!
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2020-11-03 14:09:02 bie huh, GUS is really slow for queries with no results
2020-11-03 14:09:21 @tomasino is it lazy in results? stops once it gets X?
2020-11-03 14:10:07 bie not sure... i just found out now when i tried searching for something in japanese and it took ~20 seconds
2020-11-03 14:10:38 bie and a ~40 character long random ascii string took... a couple of minutes or so
2020-11-03 14:10:42 dacav sorting unicode might be ineefficient...
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2020-11-03 14:11:23 dacav (I've no idea really, sorry :D it just popped into my mind)
2020-11-03 14:11:33 bie :D
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2020-11-03 14:29:36 jcowan I've done a bit of thinking about a truly semantic model for tables in XML. The HTML and CALS models are just too presentational.
2020-11-03 14:30:38 aravk the source code for an HTML table is pretty neat though
2020-11-03 14:31:05 aravk group by rows, then by columns, and each one can be on its own line
2020-11-03 14:31:09 jcowan Thing is, what if you are having trouble reading the table because it's too wide? Easy, just swap rows and columns? Not.
2020-11-03 14:31:28 aravk hmm
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2020-11-03 14:32:41 jcowan Of course JS can do it, because it can do anything. But the semantics of a table are something like this: A table has N dimensions each of which has some number of possible values. At any given time we can only display two of the dimensions, but we can do better if we have subdivided rows and columns with nested headers.
2020-11-03 14:33:42 jcowan I have actually seen tables displayed like this, where there are these squares representing the dimensions and you drag one to a row and another to a column.
2020-11-03 14:35:01 aravk nested headers?
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2020-11-03 14:51:32 jcowan https://handsontable.com/docs/8.1.0/demo-nested-headers.html
2020-11-03 14:51:41 jcowan check out the table (an extreme case) about halfway down
2020-11-03 14:52:35 jcowan the underlying multidimensional array is ragged, not perfectly rectangular
2020-11-03 14:56:29 aravk it doesn't look so bad
2020-11-03 14:56:57 aravk one sec, how big are the tables we want to format
2020-11-03 14:57:32 aravk because if they're more than a few words then they may be better represented using something other than a table
2020-11-03 15:00:53 jcowan A csv -> text table tool would be awesome
2020-11-03 15:01:41 jcowan I'd guess that the majority of tables have numbers in them
2020-11-03 15:02:28 aravk I'm pretty sure such a tool exists
2020-11-03 15:02:38 @tomasino awk?
2020-11-03 15:02:46 aravk ^
2020-11-03 15:02:52 aravk yeah but if most of the data is just numbers, even csv is feasible
2020-11-03 15:02:56 @tomasino csvkit has a lot of good stuffs
2020-11-03 15:03:15 @tomasino https://github.com/jamestomasino/dotfiles-minimal/blob/master/bin/csvcat
2020-11-03 15:03:23 @tomasino try this on for size on your csv
2020-11-03 15:06:29 dacav under debian, there's `csvtool`
2020-11-03 15:06:35 dacav I'm using it in these days
2020-11-03 15:07:21 dacav awk++ though
2020-11-03 15:14:11 jcowan aravk: Unless the numbers are big enough to need separator commas or decimal point commas (depending on locale)
2020-11-03 15:15:29 jcowan the hard part is handling the actual CSV format as opposed to the simplest cases only.
2020-11-03 15:17:13 jcowan (technically there are multiple CSV formats, but RFC 4180 (modulo line delimiters) is pretty reasonable
2020-11-03 15:19:06 jcowan the RFC insists on CRLF
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2020-11-03 15:42:28 khuxkm is it bad that gemini-diagnostics keeps crashing my server
2020-11-03 15:42:46 @tomasino is your intent to crash your server?
2020-11-03 15:43:00 khuxkm no
2020-11-03 15:43:06 @tomasino ahh, yes. then bad
2020-11-03 15:43:32 khuxkm >[RequestMissingCR] A request without a <CR> should timeout
2020-11-03 15:43:33 khuxkm why is this
2020-11-03 15:44:22 khuxkm I mean, I get that the URL is supposed to end with a CRLF
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2020-11-03 15:56:05 khuxkm also what's this
2020-11-03 15:56:06 khuxkm >[URLWrongPort] A URL with an incorrect port number should be rejected
2020-11-03 15:56:42 khuxkm is there a wrong port?
2020-11-03 15:56:43 acdw what are you looking at khuxkm?
2020-11-03 15:56:47 acdw no?
2020-11-03 15:56:52 khuxkm I'm running gemini-diagnostics on my server
2020-11-03 15:56:58 acdw hmmmmm
2020-11-03 15:57:11 acdw yeah, default is 1965 but like, it can be wahtev
2020-11-03 15:57:47 acdw i swear to god gemini is so hard to search anything for
2020-11-03 15:58:50 acdw also dang the ML is 🔥 today
2020-11-03 15:59:11 felix In a good way or a bad way?
2020-11-03 15:59:40 khuxkm so I fail IPv6Address (which is just nip.io not giving an IPv6 address for 7f000001.nip.io, ConcurrentConnections, HomepageRedirect, RequestMissingCR, URLSchemeMissing, URLAboveMaxSize, URLWrongPort, URLEmpty, URLRelative, URLInvalid, and URLDotEscape
2020-11-03 15:59:40 acdw meh, in a lot of messages way
2020-11-03 15:59:47 khuxkm how many of those do I need to care about
2020-11-03 15:59:54 khuxkm obviously URLDotEscape is kinda important
2020-11-03 15:59:58 acdw the content-size and hash discussion dpoesn't intrest me
2020-11-03 16:00:19 khuxkm honestly I'm tired of it too
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2020-11-03 16:08:38 acdw like,,,, why do we need content-length
2020-11-03 16:08:40 acdw uhhhfffff
2020-11-03 16:08:43 acdw also it's not there, so
2020-11-03 16:08:46 acdw it's not there
2020-11-03 16:20:47 admicos radical idea: make tcp more reliable instead of checking content lengths and whatnot
2020-11-03 16:21:49 jcowan TCP is actually extremely reliable provided the physical layer is reliable. Most problems come from there.
2020-11-03 16:22:22 admicos fair enough ig
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2020-11-03 16:22:37 admicos just making "the entire internet" a lot more reliable would be neat
2020-11-03 16:22:44 acdw ,grab admicos
2020-11-03 16:22:44 tildebot [Quotes] Quote added
2020-11-03 16:22:45 acdw lol
2020-11-03 16:22:46 admicos my crappy internet would thank anyone who attempted that
2020-11-03 16:23:26 admicos oo which lines did the bot grab
2020-11-03 16:23:28 admicos now i wanna know
2020-11-03 16:24:05 acdw ,quote admicos
2020-11-03 16:24:05 tildebot [Quotes] admicos: <admicos> just making "the entire internet" a lot more reliable would be neat
2020-11-03 16:24:08 acdw ,q admicos
2020-11-03 16:24:08 tildebot [Quotes] admicos: <admicos> just making "the entire internet" a lot more reliable would be neat
2020-11-03 16:24:12 acdw hm i guess that's it?
2020-11-03 16:28:23 ew0k I wrote a thing
2020-11-03 16:28:30 acdw okay what language should i write a custom gemini server in? I know bash pretty well
2020-11-03 16:28:32 ew0k and then a thing avout the thing
2020-11-03 16:28:36 acdw or i could do awk
2020-11-03 16:28:41 acdw ew0k: yes?!
2020-11-03 16:28:48 admicos pure sh
2020-11-03 16:29:02 admicos s/pure/posix
2020-11-03 16:29:04 acdw hm okay, i'll try
2020-11-03 16:29:06 ew0k acdw: I love bash, but writing a gemini server in it...?
2020-11-03 16:29:22 acdw biggest questions admicos: How do i wrap it in ssl? Stunnel? How do i use?
2020-11-03 16:29:43 admicos i assume some sort of socket helper would be necessary as posix sh doesn't do tcp like bash
2020-11-03 16:29:55 ew0k gemini://tilde.team/~ew0k/gemini-tool-gmi2html.gmi
2020-11-03 16:30:15 ew0k I hope there’s no typos in that link... typing on my phone now
2020-11-03 16:30:34 acdw got it!
2020-11-03 16:30:47 acdw nice :)
2020-11-03 16:30:55 ew0k would openssl s_server work?
2020-11-03 16:30:59 acdw maybe?
2020-11-03 16:31:04 acdw or ncat
2020-11-03 16:32:01 admicos i'd assume you'd need openssl (or some other ssl impl) even for nc
2020-11-03 16:32:12 admicos well, unless you're willing to implement ssl from scratch in sh
2020-11-03 16:32:13 acdw yea? maybe... idk
2020-11-03 16:32:16 acdw NO
2020-11-03 16:32:16 acdw omg
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2020-11-03 16:35:29 acdw hmmm no i'm gonna do a server in awk
2020-11-03 16:35:32 acdw posix awk maybe
2020-11-03 16:35:33 acdw but awwk
2020-11-03 16:35:41 acdw awk++
2020-11-03 16:36:01 acdw maybe awk AND sh
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2020-11-03 16:42:36 ℹ Mode #gemini [+o ben] by team.tilde.chat
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2020-11-03 16:51:12 khuxkm oh geez
2020-11-03 16:52:46 felix You can say that again.
2020-11-03 16:56:22 khuxkm oh geez
2020-11-03 16:56:49 felix :D
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2020-11-03 17:39:55 acdw oh geez
2020-11-03 17:40:02 acdw okay i have a url splitting function in posix awk
2020-11-03 17:40:26 epoch lemme poke at it.
2020-11-03 17:41:02 acdw https://ttm.sh/ddG.awk
2020-11-03 17:42:24 acdw if you run gs.awk, you can input different urls and see how it splts em
2020-11-03 17:42:35 acdw i'm *pretty* sure it's POSIX
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2020-11-03 17:50:20 epoch try a URL with a // in the path, query string, or fragment ID, but without an authority otherwise
2020-11-03 17:50:38 epoch like, a:?//
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2020-11-03 18:00:27 khuxkm alright, after a round of coding, I now pass all but IPv6Address, ConcurrentConnections, RequestMissingCR, and URLWrongPort
2020-11-03 18:00:30 acdw hm, so query should be '//'
2020-11-03 18:00:33 acdw but it aint
2020-11-03 18:00:34 khuxkm of those 4, which ones do I need to worry abot
2020-11-03 18:00:34 acdw hmm
2020-11-03 18:00:58 acdw khuxkm: I'm guessing ... concurrentconnections & request missing cr
2020-11-03 18:01:03 acdw tho idk
2020-11-03 18:01:07 acdw i haven't taken the test
2020-11-03 18:01:16 khuxkm I mean, do I *need* to pass ConcurrentConnections?
2020-11-03 18:01:44 acdw prolly a good idea -- i'm assuming it tests to see if you can handle more htan one person connecting at once?
2020-11-03 18:02:09 khuxkm okay but I don't feel like doing it :P
2020-11-03 18:02:19 khuxkm it's more of a PITA to handle more than one at the same time
2020-11-03 18:03:49 acdw haha, well then don't worry about it
2020-11-03 18:09:11 khuxkm gemserv also fails RequestMissingCR so nyeh :P
2020-11-03 18:09:34 khuxkm IPv6Address is literally just nip.io not giving an AAAA record for an ipv4-based IP
2020-11-03 18:14:00 acdw haha khuxkm, who cares then :P
2020-11-03 18:14:09 acdw yeah -- the IPv6 isn't *as* important
2020-11-03 18:14:21 acdw elpher tries that first, then if it times out it goes to IPv4, but who cares
2020-11-03 18:14:53 khuxkm I don't get URLWrongPort
2020-11-03 18:15:04 khuxkm you can run a gemini server on port 443
2020-11-03 18:15:16 khuxkm you probably shouldn't but you can
2020-11-03 18:15:31 acdw yeah, that's a dumb one imo
2020-11-03 18:15:39 acdw epoch: I can't figure it out :((((
2020-11-03 18:30:21 khuxkm so of the 4 I still fail, one is just the domain I'm using to test, one's a PITA to implement, one's something that gemserv also fails (and as such I really don't care), and the last one is one I disagree with
2020-11-03 18:30:25 khuxkm so I'm fine with this
2020-11-03 18:30:54 acdw epoch: got it https://ttm.sh/ddk.awk
2020-11-03 18:31:01 acdw it was the start of screen
2020-11-03 18:31:07 acdw s/screen/string
2020-11-03 18:31:24 acdw thar ya go khuxkm
2020-11-03 18:31:28 acdw sounds good to me
2020-11-03 18:36:00 acdw hey, so a server doesn't need to know how to combine paths, right? just the client
2020-11-03 18:38:11 khuxkm hmm
2020-11-03 18:38:42 khuxkm now that I look at it, URLWrongPort is supposed to test that the server doesn't proxy a request to a port other than the one it's on
2020-11-03 18:39:23 khuxkm although there's an issue with the diagnostic: if the server is hosted on port 443 and you test it, it'll fail the test
2020-11-03 18:41:27 acdw oh that might be important tho
2020-11-03 18:43:41 acdw RE: spec, I think in (2), the "If the scheme of the URL is not specified, a scheme of gemini:// is implied." should be deleetd
2020-11-03 18:43:41 khuxkm yeah so I'm gonna try and pass that
2020-11-03 18:43:47 khuxkm it's poorly stated though
2020-11-03 18:44:37 acdw si
2020-11-03 18:44:40 acdw yo agree
2020-11-03 18:54:17 omni was anyone here running typed-hole.org and, specifically, the lobste.rs mirror? words in comments are chopped and letters missing
2020-11-03 18:55:31 omni where's the source for that? I have a vague memory I was handed an url to the git repo and checked it out, but now I can't seem to find it
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2020-11-03 19:05:30 omni nevermind I found it
2020-11-03 19:06:03 acdw nice!
2020-11-03 19:06:34 omni https://github.com/julienXX/gophsters
2020-11-03 19:06:40 omni julienxx: hi!
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2020-11-03 19:07:25 acdw oh nice
2020-11-03 19:07:54 omni here's the lobste.rs mirror for those who haven't found it gemini://typed-hole.org/lobsters/lobsters.gemini
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2020-11-03 19:33:47 omni when I run it myself I cannot find any chopped words in comments in current threads
2020-11-03 19:34:32 omni is typed-hole.org running an older version or have I there sumbled on deeper threads?
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2020-11-03 19:46:39 khuxkm|lounge >RE: spec, I think in (2), the "If the scheme of the URL is not specified, a scheme of gemini:// is implied." should be deleetd
2020-11-03 19:46:50 khuxkm|lounge acdw: care to elaborate?
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2020-11-03 20:19:31 makeworld Yeah, what's wrong with that?
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2020-11-03 21:18:23 @julienxx Hi omni!
2020-11-03 21:19:43 @julienxx It’s possible I’m running an older version of my software, I’ll check that out :)
2020-11-03 21:25:37 jcowan It copies a misfeature of HTTP client software
2020-11-03 21:26:01 jcowan It should be moved to the recommendations as something client-side only
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2020-11-03 22:37:15 kiedtl yay DroneBL
2020-11-03 22:39:11 xfnw that better not have been jess lol
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2020-11-03 22:49:37 @tomasino um...
2020-11-03 22:50:12 @tomasino tilde.institute just got wholesale added to droneBL?
2020-11-03 22:50:13 @tomasino od dear
2020-11-03 22:51:03 kiedtl tilde.institute, eh? I wonder who's been portscanning over there...
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2020-11-03 23:00:00 acdw Hey everyone! Sorry I left for so long
2020-11-03 23:01:04 acdw khuxkm|lounge, makeworld: I think that little sentence is problematic b/c there's been multiple people on the ML and elswehere that have expressed confusion over a URL like "example.com/foo", because the URL spec says that is only a path
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2020-11-03 23:01:35 acdw If nothing else, the sentence should be changed from "gemini://" to "gemini", since neither the ":" nor the "//" are part of the scheme
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2020-11-03 23:02:12 acdw and in fact, to actually link to an authority like "example.com", and not a path "example.com" on the current machine, you need to specify "//example.com"
2020-11-03 23:02:55 acdw IN ADDITION, I think all the URL munging should be done by the client, and the server should only have to worry about figuring out absolute URLs with fully-qualified schemes
2020-11-03 23:03:01 acdw so
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2020-11-03 23:19:31 kevinsan acdw: isn't that (client side munging) implied by the requirement that a fully-qualified absolute URL be used in the request?
2020-11-03 23:21:20 acdw right! Except for the weird stipulation that a client could send "//example.com", or possibly even (given the wording in the spec) "example.com", and the server's supposed to just ... know what that means?
2020-11-03 23:27:45 kevinsan yes, i see what you mean. it's technically an error, but I wonder what the thinking was behind the general idea of a 'default scheme'
2020-11-03 23:28:25 acdw prolly "this is gemini, we should assume gemini"
2020-11-03 23:28:51 kevinsan thinking about it, i suppose gopher support had a part in the reasoning here
2020-11-03 23:29:17 acdw oh?
2020-11-03 23:30:29 kevinsan just reading the paragraph below regarding proxies, etc. makes me think that may have been why non-gemini protocols might have been in mind
2020-11-03 23:30:39 kevinsan at all, i mean
2020-11-03 23:31:45 acdw oh yeah, I think so --- but I think that's all the more reason to require a protocol
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2020-11-04 00:25:57 omni julienxx: hey! this may actually be client side. I see the described issues with ncgopher but not with kristall
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2020-11-04 00:49:28 acdw bah
2020-11-04 00:49:42 acdw oh hey, i have a gemini question: what should I name my awk-powered gemini server?
2020-11-04 00:49:56 boringcactus awkstronaut
2020-11-04 00:53:31 @tomasino awkword
2020-11-04 00:58:28 acdw oh lord
2020-11-04 00:59:40 @tomasino yep, i'll be here all week
2020-11-04 00:59:59 @tomasino you can find me over at #dadjokes
2020-11-04 01:12:14 kiedtl or capcawk? idk
2020-11-04 01:12:25 acdw capcawk omg omgomg
2020-11-04 01:21:53 kiedtl lol, acdw seems excited ;P
2020-11-04 01:23:00 acdw that's just hilariuos :P
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2020-11-04 01:38:37 acdw pparently the consteallation was known as al-Gawzaa in arabic .. maybe al-Gawkzaa?
2020-11-04 01:47:42 makeworld https://git.sr.ht/~adnano/go-gemini is looking like a great library
2020-11-04 01:47:58 makeworld Gotta double check the TOFU implementation and stuff, but it might replace my go-gemini library in Amfora
2020-11-04 01:48:35 raiz isn't there conflict between two go-geminis?
2020-11-04 01:49:37 acdw watch out there's gonna be a lawsuit
2020-11-04 01:50:13 raiz hilarious stuff you only see in go land
2020-11-04 01:50:33 acdw oh really? are there a lot of packages similarly named?
2020-11-04 01:50:49 makeworld Lol
2020-11-04 01:50:50 raiz search for any implementation of anything in go, you'll find many go-<thing>
2020-11-04 01:51:02 makeworld raiz: There's no software conflict though
2020-11-04 01:51:13 makeworld Like you can easily mix and match, there's no namespace issue I mean
2020-11-04 01:51:20 makeworld Just confusing when talking about it
2020-11-04 01:51:21 raiz of course
2020-11-04 01:51:29 acdw oh that's funny
2020-11-04 01:51:30 makeworld Anyway I will likely deprecate mine, we'll see
2020-11-04 01:51:44 acdw i guess you need the fully qualified name, i.e. github.com/makeworld/go-gemini
2020-11-04 01:51:55 makeworld Yeah that's how the go pkg manager works
2020-11-04 01:51:59 raiz in go you can specify local namespace
2020-11-04 01:52:05 raiz so you can have both included
2020-11-04 01:52:08 makeworld Didn't get around to writing my blog post on that, I should
2020-11-04 01:52:19 makeworld raiz: Idk what you mean
2020-11-04 01:52:46 raiz gemini1 "github.com/someone1/go-gemini"
2020-11-04 01:52:56 raiz gemini2 "github.com/someone2/go-gemini"
2020-11-04 01:53:04 makeworld Oh for imports yeah
2020-11-04 01:53:21 makeworld Like in Python: import abc as xyz
2020-11-04 01:53:32 acdw uh
2020-11-04 01:53:34 acdw huh
2020-11-04 01:55:01 raiz I think the FAQ should be updated to answer all questions people ask about content length
2020-11-04 01:55:14 acdw lol yes
2020-11-04 01:55:15 raiz it seems people don't understand how to operate with such limitations
2020-11-04 01:55:33 acdw shoul dbe, "Can we have Content-Length?" "No." "But --- " "No."
2020-11-04 01:55:34 raiz 80% of my inbox now is discussion about content-length
2020-11-04 01:56:07 raiz sounds about right
2020-11-04 01:56:31 raiz but I'd like to have documented examples of working around such limitations
2020-11-04 01:56:35 acdw lol raiz
2020-11-04 01:56:38 acdw yeah pretty much
2020-11-04 01:56:42 raiz instead of repeating over and over
2020-11-04 01:56:47 bie why do people want content length?
2020-11-04 01:56:58 acdw what limitations are people running into that they need it?
2020-11-04 01:57:15 raiz last post now, it seems that they want it for progress indicator when downloading large files
2020-11-04 01:58:06 raiz its a meme at this point
2020-11-04 01:58:07 acdw oh, ah. well that's the oe thing i can think is okay for it
2020-11-04 01:58:12 acdw lol yes
2020-11-04 01:58:18 bie that's easily solvable - just don't have a progress indicator
2020-11-04 01:58:20 acdw like.... don't use gemini to download large files
2020-11-04 01:58:21 raiz well progress bars can be worked around
2020-11-04 01:58:32 acdw gemini is for text
2020-11-04 01:58:55 acdw i mean, you can shove anything thru the pipe, but ... don't if you care about it getting to the other side
2020-11-04 01:59:00 raiz https://lists.orbitalfox.eu/archives/gemini/2020/003044.html
2020-11-04 01:59:20 raiz boom, fixed, no need for content length
2020-11-04 01:59:42 acdw +1
2020-11-04 02:00:27 raiz they seemed to have ignored me though, lol
2020-11-04 02:00:52 bie yeah, and thinking about it it's not as if http clients are super clever about what to do when download sizes don't match the provided content length
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2020-11-04 02:02:55 bie btw, i've been serving some largeish files through gemini and it's... pretty ok?
2020-11-04 02:03:30 makeworld Not surprised
2020-11-04 02:03:47 makeworld TCP is reliable
2020-11-04 02:17:11 CommunistWolf until it breaks
2020-11-04 02:30:15 makeworld Shhh
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2020-11-04 02:49:12 zdragon usenet was for text but look what happened there
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2020-11-04 02:51:27 acdw lol
2020-11-04 02:53:43 zdragon GeminiBins GMB instead of NZB.
2020-11-04 02:56:04 khuxkm raiz: honestly I didn't even care about the content-length; my whole issue was with the idea of "oh it's done and over with and we can't add anything more so don't bother suggesting things bye"
2020-11-04 02:56:33 khuxkm like, it's not too late to consider new features
2020-11-04 02:57:03 khuxkm I think I'll type up a proposal for the file meta URL
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2020-11-04 02:58:32 khuxkm ooh, idea: a .well-known registry for gemini
2020-11-04 02:58:33 khuxkm :P
2020-11-04 02:59:49 kayw what would that entail?
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2020-11-04 03:04:11 khuxkm basically a list of URLs under /.well-known that mean certain things
2020-11-04 03:04:54 khuxkm like how in HTTPS you might have https://tilde.zone/.well-known/webfinger
2020-11-04 03:04:59 khuxkm which handles webfinger stuff
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2020-11-04 04:31:59 raiz khuxkm: I'm not against content-length for the sake of being against it, I have suggested ways of working around the lack of it that are reasonable, until someone comes up with a compelling argument to why we'd need content length, I won't advocate for it.
2020-11-04 04:33:12 acdw ^
2020-11-04 04:34:13 raiz also since I wasn't in the scene for a long time, I'm trying to catch up, I'm actually implementing everything in the protocol, including my own server and client/browser because I'm not very satisfied with the current implementations
2020-11-04 04:34:17 khuxkm again, I wasn't even giving a stance on the content-length issue in particular
2020-11-04 04:34:48 khuxkm but I digress
2020-11-04 04:35:37 raiz I guess the further I get in my server implementation I'll get a feel of what's missing if there's anything missing
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2020-11-04 04:37:54 raiz speaking of which, I've just got my text/gemini to html converter working, I'm getting closer to being able to host my gemini blog :)
2020-11-04 04:38:11 raiz I'm excited for that
2020-11-04 04:39:00 raiz moar content for gemspace
2020-11-04 04:39:13 raiz \o/
2020-11-04 04:39:23 khuxkm more content is good :)
2020-11-04 04:39:50 raiz soon™
2020-11-04 04:44:51 raiz kristall still rocks btw
2020-11-04 04:59:22 acdw nice
2020-11-04 05:15:17 alex11 screw it, i'll try the emacs flatpak so i can use elpher :P
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2020-11-04 05:19:50 acdw DO IT alex11 :)
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2020-11-04 05:36:54 alex11 cool
2020-11-04 05:36:55 alex11 it works
2020-11-04 05:36:56 alex11 apparently
2020-11-04 05:37:07 alex11 now i just need to fucking get used to all the confusion of emacs
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2020-11-04 05:49:05 insep raiz: since you are using kristall, can you check if the following page displays properly on it? gemini://drewdevault.com/cgi-bin/man.sh/3/ioctl
2020-11-04 05:56:33 raiz oh, no currently I'm using netcat on my openbsd box to browser gemspace, I just recently moved to debian stable from arch and there's no kristall in the repos, I'd have to compile it
2020-11-04 05:56:52 raiz netcat never goes wrong though
2020-11-04 05:56:56 raiz I can try with netcat
2020-11-04 05:57:02 raiz sec...
2020-11-04 05:58:53 insep netcat probably won't have problems handling this, but i'm afraid that kristall will
2020-11-04 05:59:13 raiz well
2020-11-04 05:59:18 raiz nc does have problems apparently
2020-11-04 05:59:28 raiz the connection hangs and no content is served
2020-11-04 05:59:43 raiz seems to be a server side issue I assume?
2020-11-04 06:02:25 insep i also had problems with using gemini with netcat, i assume server wants ssl handshake but it never happens
2020-11-04 06:02:41 raiz openbsd netcat has tls
2020-11-04 06:02:48 raiz try that (if you have it in your repos)
2020-11-04 06:02:59 raiz using -c and -Tnoverify
2020-11-04 06:04:35 insep ok
2020-11-04 06:10:05 insep invalid tos value noverify
2020-11-04 06:10:56 insep raiz: try using https://raw.githubusercontent.com/aaronjanse/gcat/master/gcat if you have python installed
2020-11-04 06:11:12 raiz what's that?
2020-11-04 06:11:30 khuxkm yeah, Gemini is over TLS, not plain socket
2020-11-04 06:11:43 insep simple gemini browser, just pass link as first argument
2020-11-04 06:12:38 insep but what i really want is to someone test gemini://drewdevault.com/cgi-bin/man.sh/3/ioctl
2020-11-04 06:12:56 ★ khuxkm test
2020-11-04 06:13:01 raiz told you, the connection hangs on netcat, so it's not a client issue
2020-11-04 06:13:04 raiz probably
2020-11-04 06:13:17 khuxkm what am I supposed to be doing?
2020-11-04 06:13:23 khuxkm it loads fine for me
2020-11-04 06:13:30 raiz oh?
2020-11-04 06:13:34 ★ raiz tries again
2020-11-04 06:13:48 khuxkm remember you need to do TLS
2020-11-04 06:14:06 insep uh, i mean that page on kristall
2020-11-04 06:14:17 raiz khuxkm: the connection hangs
2020-11-04 06:14:41 khuxkm what command are you using?
2020-11-04 06:15:08 raiz nc -c -Tnoverify drewdevault.com 1965; then send the request
2020-11-04 06:15:12 raiz oh wait
2020-11-04 06:15:20 raiz I think I know what I did wrong
2020-11-04 06:15:23 raiz hold on...
2020-11-04 06:15:45 raiz Hey! it works now
2020-11-04 06:15:51 khuxkm nice!
2020-11-04 06:16:20 raiz many gemini server implementations accept singe \n in request, but seems that drew's implementation expects explicit \r\n
2020-11-04 06:16:36 raiz writing request manually and hitting enter didn't work
2020-11-04 06:16:37 raiz lol
2020-11-04 06:16:48 raiz using printf to form request and piped it
2020-11-04 06:17:09 khuxkm yeah that's a point of contention
2020-11-04 06:17:15 khuxkm according to spec you need \r\n
2020-11-04 06:17:31 khuxkm but most servers will accept just \n, including gemserv and Big Tiddy Gemini Server
2020-11-04 06:18:20 raiz btw, this is nice, manpage browser in gemspace
2020-11-04 06:33:51 insep oh huh, kristall doesn't have problems with that page
2020-11-04 06:34:36 ★ insep goes to kristall's source code to figure out what i copied wrong
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2020-11-04 06:40:48 piotr hi, I am browsing around and I was wondering how can I find genini servers? I cannot find any information on the recent mailing list. There is no "blogroll". So far, I only find addresses by an accident
2020-11-04 06:42:16 khuxkm gemini://gus.guru seems like a good site
2020-11-04 06:42:24 insep there's search engine and there's capcom
2020-11-04 06:42:59 insep gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/capcom/
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2020-11-04 06:51:28 piotr thanks
2020-11-04 07:01:54 ew0k piotr: the previously mentioned CAPCOM and also Spacewalk (gemini://rawtext.club:1965/~sloum/spacewalk.gmi) are blogrolls of sorts
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2020-11-04 12:11:55 lowkey what openssl package do i need to build gmnisrv on ubuntu?
2020-11-04 12:12:38 lowkey i already have the package 'openssl' installed
2020-11-04 12:13:05 djph for compiling? probably openssl-dev ?
2020-11-04 12:13:42 lowkey but when running 'configure', I get "Checking for OpenSSL.....NOT FOUND"
2020-11-04 12:13:47 lowkey ah, i'll try that
2020-11-04 12:14:38 lowkey hmmm, no package called openssl-dev
2020-11-04 12:15:48 djph hmm, maybe it's libopenssl-dev then ... maybe? IDK, been ages since I've had to compile against openssl :|
2020-11-04 12:16:24 lowkey There's indeed a libssl-dev and I installed it but I still get the same error
2020-11-04 12:16:28 lowkey There's no libssl though
2020-11-04 12:16:53 raiz libssl-dev and libcrypto-dev is what you're looking for
2020-11-04 12:17:15 raiz and make sure you have pkg-config installed too
2020-11-04 12:17:20 lowkey Ahh
2020-11-04 12:17:25 lowkey Trying this out
2020-11-04 12:18:24 lowkey that worked!
2020-11-04 12:18:26 lowkey thanks a lot!
2020-11-04 12:18:41 raiz cool
2020-11-04 12:19:24 lowkey i've had this issue with another of sircmpwn's projects too
2020-11-04 12:19:32 lowkey where when i run make install, the man page fails to install
2020-11-04 12:19:56 mieum lowkey: do you have scdoc installed?
2020-11-04 12:20:13 lowkey um, lemme check
2020-11-04 12:20:29 lowkey yup, i do
2020-11-04 12:21:01 raiz what project are you referring to, can you link to the makefile of that project?
2020-11-04 12:21:20 mieum where are you installing to? your home folder, or to /usr?
2020-11-04 12:22:28 lowkey to /usr
2020-11-04 12:23:38 lowkey i was talking about gmni, the gemini client
2020-11-04 12:23:57 lowkey this is its makefile
2020-11-04 12:23:59 lowkey https://git.sr.ht/~sircmpwn/gmni/tree/master/Makefile
2020-11-04 12:25:21 raiz an error message might help too
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2020-11-04 12:38:06 low-key Sorry, just got off my laptop.
2020-11-04 12:38:24 low-key Wait, it was a tmux session on my vps
2020-11-04 12:38:27 low-key Lemme grab it
2020-11-04 12:40:05 low-key install: cannot stat 'doc/gmnisrv.1': No such file or directory
2020-11-04 12:40:25 low-key Followed by make: *** [Makefile:43: install] Error 1
2020-11-04 12:49:09 dacav ah yeah, it happened yesterday to me too :) It seems like there's some asciidoc->man generation step missing
2020-11-04 12:49:29 dacav the remaining part of the installation worked anyway :)
2020-11-04 12:50:20 dacav Btw, anyone knows if there's some plan for gemini support in libcurl?
2020-11-04 12:51:29 aravk check the mailing list
2020-11-04 12:51:43 aravk apparently there is a repo somewhere at least partially implementing it
2020-11-04 12:51:54 aravk but that's the only progress that I've seen
2020-11-04 12:52:57 dacav thanks aravk. I started to look into some implementation detail (of gmni) yesterday... and to pinpoint how it works with respect to libssl...
2020-11-04 12:53:07 dacav Damn, the openssl documentation is... uh...
2020-11-04 12:53:30 dacav (I never looked at it, but it is far from being useful... wow)
2020-11-04 12:53:44 dacav how do you libssl, seriously? :)
2020-11-04 12:54:03 dacav Do you usually take examples from implementation, to make up for the lack of docs?
2020-11-04 12:55:49 aravk man section 7ssl is pretty heplful
2020-11-04 12:55:56 aravk once you get the hang of what it's trying to do
2020-11-04 12:56:08 low-key Yeah, the rest of the installation does work fine
2020-11-04 12:56:40 aravk I did take a shot at writing a gemini client, and I did use OpenSSL, and once you understand the basic architecture (what with BIO and stuff) it's actually straightforward
2020-11-04 12:56:43 dacav aravk: true, that is somewhat helpful. It says absolutely nothing on the error handling of course
2020-11-04 12:56:54 aravk apparently it's a thread local error stack or smth
2020-11-04 12:57:05 aravk try using man -K to search the 7ssl section
2020-11-04 12:57:10 dacav I explored some examples, including gmni's code, just to realize that many simply don't error check
2020-11-04 12:57:40 aravk seriously, why doesn't there exist a KISS SSL implementation that pulls things off uniformly and neatly?
2020-11-04 12:57:49 dacav ikr?
2020-11-04 12:58:11 dacav and possibly correctly too! Because I'm very horrified by the idea of buggy secure software
2020-11-04 12:58:11 aravk funnily enough, all my c projects are on hold because c's so bad at handling basic stuff like strings
2020-11-04 12:58:52 aravk write a language that is like c but improves 10% of it -> write a standard library that's actually useful -> write a KISS SSL implementation -> write a gemini client
2020-11-04 12:59:34 dacav aravk: never getting to an end of it :)
2020-11-04 12:59:57 dacav aravk: have you tried using stuff like uthash? It has some string facility too
2020-11-04 13:00:09 dacav I use uthash for my C projects... pretty much every time.
2020-11-04 13:00:18 ew0k I looked at the libcurl fork earlier today. It looks really simple! But it lacks testing, and there's a WIP branch about "handling META" which I don't really know what it's meant to do
2020-11-04 13:00:36 ew0k I would *really* like to get gemini into libcurl
2020-11-04 13:00:49 ew0k I think that would make client builds a lot easier
2020-11-04 13:01:05 ew0k well... I believe it would... I don't really know :D
2020-11-04 13:01:17 ehmry but then you would have to deal with the libcurl maintainer
2020-11-04 13:01:38 dacav yeah ew0k ! Not to mention the other problem with openssl, that is having the same program initializing it twice in case of double-reachability in the dependecy graph
2020-11-04 13:02:25 ew0k ehmry: is he hard to deal with?
2020-11-04 13:02:51 raiz dacav: yeah, c can get very annoying, you'd start working on something you think you'd finish in the evening then you end up spending days working on it, unfortunately, other options aren't appealing either
2020-11-04 13:03:28 dacav raiz: agreed.. but C is like slow-food
2020-11-04 13:03:35 ehmry ew0k: it seems that way. also curl is bloated to hell
2020-11-04 13:03:42 dacav you cook it with care :) you get it awesome
2020-11-04 13:04:09 ew0k ehmry: good point about the bloat...
2020-11-04 13:04:48 raiz there are already curl-like options for gemini
2020-11-04 13:04:50 dacav Bloated I don't know (I trust you, given the amount of supported protocols), but also super-stable and well tested, AFAIK
2020-11-04 13:05:44 ew0k dacav: bloated in the sense that it supports *everything*, but the code base actually looks nicely organized
2020-11-04 13:06:54 ehmry it does ldap.
2020-11-04 13:07:53 omni would someone come up with a lightweight ldap? :B
2020-11-04 13:08:37 ehmry curl is a good example of where the unix philosophy has lead
2020-11-04 13:09:03 omni isn't that the fault of the web?
2020-11-04 13:09:29 raiz curl is not only a web thing
2020-11-04 13:09:53 omni sure, but mainly, no?
2020-11-04 13:20:22 kiedtl does curl really follow the unix philosophy?
2020-11-04 13:20:53 kiedtl I would think the Unix philosophy would be in favor a separate tool for HTTP(S), Gemini/Gopher, FTP, SSH, etc
2020-11-04 13:22:17 ew0k possibly
2020-11-04 13:23:05 ew0k it's semantics, I guess. It does one thing and one thing only in that it makes calls over the internet
2020-11-04 13:24:36 raiz I agree with kiedtl
2020-11-04 13:24:46 raiz imagine if cat supported compression?
2020-11-04 13:25:02 raiz instead of gzcat and bzcat
2020-11-04 13:25:20 raiz oh wait, lets add hexdumps to cat too
2020-11-04 13:26:03 raiz cat already has too many features in the modern day unix system
2020-11-04 13:26:52 raiz cat -n can be done using nl for example
2020-11-04 13:27:13 raiz and there's cat -v which I don't know if anyone does use it
2020-11-04 13:27:23 raiz if you know anyone who does, tell me
2020-11-04 13:29:59 ew0k Has someone made a geminicurl?
2020-11-04 13:30:12 dacav ew0k: well, gmni does that
2020-11-04 13:30:26 raiz there's gcat also which was mentioned here a few times
2020-11-04 13:30:30 dacav that's how I like to access geminy :)
2020-11-04 13:30:37 ew0k dacav: that's the one I saw! I just thought "didn't I see something like that..."
2020-11-04 13:30:39 dacav minus the url selection :D
2020-11-04 13:30:44 raiz you could also wrap a shell script around netcat to do that
2020-11-04 13:33:45 @tomasino I think there's also a gurl or gem_curl project
2020-11-04 13:34:01 raiz lol that name
2020-11-04 13:34:11 @tomasino I remember there being 2 or 3 discussed on the list around the same time
2020-11-04 13:34:17 @tomasino ;)
2020-11-04 13:34:18 raiz "how's goin' gurl"
2020-11-04 13:52:31 ericonr tomasino: I have used the gurl that's written in zig
2020-11-04 13:54:54 ericonr aravk: well BearSSL is a great KISS SSL library which suffers from being too simple, making self signed more of a pain than it might otherwise need to be
2020-11-04 14:07:00 dacav Speaking of alternatives, I guess LibreSSL == OpenSSL, we spoke about Bear... ...anyone tried GNUTLS so far?
2020-11-04 14:17:25 ew0k I wrote my thoughts on the lack of POST in gemini: gemini://tilde.team/~ew0k/gemini-and-post.gmi
2020-11-04 14:17:44 ew0k Felt like I needed a long form post to spill my thoughts on it.
2020-11-04 14:22:10 @tomasino they're good thoughts to spill
2020-11-04 14:22:40 bie good thoughts, yeah! i kind of feel like it's "too soon" or something to worry too much about non-technical users
2020-11-04 14:22:56 bie too soon might be the wrong way to put it, buuut
2020-11-04 14:23:21 @tomasino i'm firmly in favor of the protocol being primarily read-only. not adding in POST means we're not preemptively solving the non-technical user issue by slapping the web solution on top
2020-11-04 14:24:01 @tomasino there's other things we can do, certainly
2020-11-04 14:24:19 @tomasino ftp is hard because the web made daily use of ftp go away
2020-11-04 14:24:32 @tomasino but it was a day-in-day-out office task for a decade
2020-11-04 14:24:50 @tomasino there's happy little guis
2020-11-04 14:24:52 @tomasino you can drag & drop
2020-11-04 14:25:01 bie yesssss
2020-11-04 14:25:02 @tomasino and that's just FTP
2020-11-04 14:25:35 bie i like the really simple input status code gemini has, though
2020-11-04 14:25:51 @tomasino it's nice and well limited
2020-11-04 14:26:05 bie i wrote a simple guestbook type thing with multi-step input
2020-11-04 14:26:10 ew0k tomasino: yeah! And finding a space to put your files can’t be harder than deciding which blog portal to sign up for
2020-11-04 14:26:11 bie on blekksprut.net
2020-11-04 14:26:36 @tomasino the modern web is a hammer that has us thinking everything we want to do is a nail
2020-11-04 14:26:39 ew0k The question is how you solve wiki, for example
2020-11-04 14:26:46 dacav but is POST really a thing different than a mere label, actually? Nothing prevents a `gemini://....?query_string`, right? And that needs evaluation and forms and whatever not too.
2020-11-04 14:26:46 @tomasino wiki is a web convention
2020-11-04 14:26:50 bie i don't really think wiki has to be solved, but... yeah
2020-11-04 14:27:08 ew0k I mean... maybe a public ftp is the equivalent
2020-11-04 14:27:10 xfnw you could use git for wikis
2020-11-04 14:27:10 @tomasino it doesn't need to be like that
2020-11-04 14:27:44 ew0k dacav: the query string can’t be very long. 1024 chars innits entirety, and that’s after url encoding
2020-11-04 14:28:31 ericonr xfnw: for git https://repo.or.cz/h/mob.html :)
2020-11-04 14:28:33 ericonr it
2020-11-04 14:28:37 ericonr 's a very nice idea
2020-11-04 14:29:15 bie 1024 characters is the entire url, right?
2020-11-04 14:29:30 ew0k Yup
2020-11-04 14:29:44 bie so it would be... 1024 characters - the "base url"
2020-11-04 14:30:29 ew0k yup
2020-11-04 14:30:49 @tomasino if i were building a community free-for-all info board like a wiki from scratch, i'd have user accounts log me into an editor experience like vscode with the project pane open. Hop around, edit, save, quit
2020-11-04 14:31:12 bie i don't know how vscode works, but i'd do just like
2020-11-04 14:31:18 dacav Anyway, I do agree with the read-only idea. It's the usual thing: if you want some interaction, there are different tools
2020-11-04 14:31:21 bie an old school bbs style interface
2020-11-04 14:31:52 ew0k I don’t know how either vscode or old school bbs work/look :D
2020-11-04 14:32:29 @tomasino you could do it with a remote shell into ranger or something, but if we DO want to make it easy for non-techies, an app that you log into that's making a tcp connection, validating you through user/pass or cert, then giving you a VSCode-like experience would be heaven
2020-11-04 14:33:00 bie what's ranger?
2020-11-04 14:33:10 @tomasino it's a file-browser thingy for the command line
2020-11-04 14:33:13 bie ohhh right
2020-11-04 14:33:19 bie like...yeah... like those things lol
2020-11-04 14:33:38 @tomasino non-techies use apps
2020-11-04 14:33:45 insep scp anyone?
2020-11-04 14:33:45 bie i use apps <3
2020-11-04 14:33:49 @tomasino so just, like, have one. Have the signup be a part of it.
2020-11-04 14:34:10 bie i'm a non-technie by day AND night, techie when... nostalgic
2020-11-04 14:34:13 bie or something like that
2020-11-04 14:34:20 @tomasino oh you want to build a gemini capsule? Well, the easiest way is through gemcities.com and using the gemcities app
2020-11-04 14:34:28 bie i like that idea, though
2020-11-04 14:34:59 bie really like it, actually :x
2020-11-04 14:35:06 @tomasino have handy buttons for "insert link" that prompt for the URL and the title and format it for them
2020-11-04 14:35:29 @tomasino change text from header 1,2,3, body, quote, or list with a dropdown
2020-11-04 14:35:55 @tomasino yes gemtext is simple, but make it trivial for the non-techy
2020-11-04 14:36:20 ew0k tomasino: I like this very much
2020-11-04 14:36:22 @tomasino maybe it shows a 2 pane split, raw txt on the left, rendered gemtext on the right
2020-11-04 14:36:28 @tomasino user can toggle it on/off, whatnot
2020-11-04 14:37:06 @tomasino http://25.io/mou/ is like that, sorta
2020-11-04 14:37:08 bie i seriously might make something like that, at least for ios
2020-11-04 14:37:09 @tomasino if you need a visual
2020-11-04 14:37:16 bie don't know anything about android
2020-11-04 14:37:46 @tomasino once you make it the idea will be there and others can be like, "oh yeah. wikis aren't the only design pattern we have"
2020-11-04 14:37:53 bie yeah yeah!
2020-11-04 14:39:06 @tomasino okay, back to work with me. best of luck to you all!
2020-11-04 14:40:05 bie tomasino: have fun~!
2020-11-04 14:40:15 bie almost midnight here
2020-11-04 14:58:49 kiedtl raiz: curl is more comparable to a /bin/cat implementation that can deserialize yaml or json, lol
2020-11-04 14:59:51 aravk why can't we have a wiki protocol
2020-11-04 15:00:23 aravk or any public-access-but-send-patches kind of protocol
2020-11-04 15:00:33 aravk it's not as general as POST, for example
2020-11-04 15:00:46 aravk but the GET side would basically match gemini
2020-11-04 15:03:37 low-key Is the gmnisrv man page hosted somewhere?
2020-11-04 15:03:50 aravk I don't think so
2020-11-04 15:03:55 aravk I have it though, if you want
2020-11-04 15:04:08 aravk wait
2020-11-04 15:04:09 aravk no I don't
2020-11-04 15:04:14 low-key Could you please?
2020-11-04 15:04:16 low-key Ah
2020-11-04 15:04:17 aravk I have the gmni and gmnlm
2020-11-04 15:04:23 aravk I can get gmnisrv too, np
2020-11-04 15:04:27 aravk gimme 1 min
2020-11-04 15:04:30 low-key It's in the folder but that format is rather inconvenient to read
2020-11-04 15:04:56 low-key What would it take to convert that scd file?
2020-11-04 15:05:23 aravk drew's scd man-page generator
2020-11-04 15:05:31 aravk scdoc
2020-11-04 15:05:42 aravk should be at git.sr.ht/~sircmpwn/scdoc
2020-11-04 15:05:53 low-key Ah, thanks ;)
2020-11-04 15:06:14 low-key Then I should just be able to open it with less and it'll be properly formatted as a man page?
2020-11-04 15:07:14 aravk https://ttm.sh/d2_.1
2020-11-04 15:07:22 aravk https://ttm.sh/d2j.5
2020-11-04 15:07:25 aravk not with less, with man
2020-11-04 15:07:37 aravk man pages have even weirder formatting
2020-11-04 15:07:46 aravk use man ./<file>.1 or whatever
2020-11-04 15:09:22 low-key Ah, alright.
2020-11-04 15:09:38 low-key Where would I be putting it so that I can just run man gmnisrv to get it?
2020-11-04 15:09:47 aravk best would just be to install gmnisrv
2020-11-04 15:09:52 aravk install scdoc first
2020-11-04 15:09:58 aravk then it should build automatically
2020-11-04 15:10:13 low-key Okay
2020-11-04 15:10:22 aravk (i.e. download scdoc; configure; make; make install; download gmnisrv; configure; make; make install)
2020-11-04 15:12:08 kayw I had to manually install scdoc because Debian 10 has an outdated version
2020-11-04 15:14:16 aravk I prefer to install tons of stuff by hand
2020-11-04 15:14:21 aravk it's really not that difficult
2020-11-04 15:14:33 aravk plus I use gentoo so this is already normal
2020-11-04 15:15:32 kayw also if you need a SystemD service for gmnisrv lmk
2020-11-04 15:15:44 low-key Okay, manually installing it fixed that error and the docs got installed just fine
2020-11-04 15:15:47 low-key Thanks aravk
2020-11-04 15:15:50 low-key :D
2020-11-04 15:21:08 low-key Is there any movement towards making regular http sites available over gemini?
2020-11-04 15:21:20 low-key Porting them.
2020-11-04 15:25:13 aravk not really
2020-11-04 15:25:36 aravk gemini isn't about replacing the web; at least, gemini.circumlunar.space says so
2020-11-04 15:25:52 aravk better to have both
2020-11-04 15:26:38 bie agreed.... i sometimes make stuff available over both http(s) and gemini, but only if i feel like it fits... both
2020-11-04 15:26:41 low-key I know but...
2020-11-04 15:27:04 low-key I'd just like to use Gemini more and it's kinda tough when most of the information sites I frequent are not on gemini
2020-11-04 15:27:13 low-key Like the Arch Wiki
2020-11-04 15:27:38 aravk for now, you'll still have to use both
2020-11-04 15:27:51 aravk no one is (reasonably) anticipating Gemini to come to everything anytime soon
2020-11-04 15:28:17 bie tbh, i don't want it to ever be everywhere
2020-11-04 15:28:28 aravk yeah, true
2020-11-04 15:28:41 bie sometimes a film adaptation of a book works, but i wouldn't want every single book ever written to have a film adaptation
2020-11-04 15:28:53 low-key i just want the few sites and people I'm interested in to offer a gemini version
2020-11-04 15:29:23 low-key I agree. I don't want the smolnet to grow obese like the internet.
2020-11-04 15:29:24 bie low-key: if it's only a few sites, you might be able to take care of it yourself?
2020-11-04 15:32:08 Dr-WaSabi I thought that there was a tool to convert html to gemini? or I could just be totally making that up in my head.. who knows
2020-11-04 15:32:29 Dr-WaSabi it was like a library or something
2020-11-04 15:35:28 aravk no yeah it's been discussed on the mailing list
2020-11-04 15:35:41 aravk but I don't think it's going to be super helpful for more complex html
2020-11-04 15:35:50 aravk and pls don't bring js into the picture
2020-11-04 15:36:24 Dr-WaSabi ha.. no kidding
2020-11-04 16:31:59 ▬▬▶ acdw has joined #gemini
2020-11-04 16:33:50 acdw morning!
2020-11-04 16:34:21 acdw I have gemini-only content; i'm planning on HTTP me to be more "professional", and gemini to be personal
2020-11-04 16:34:54 aravk makes sense
2020-11-04 16:36:53 aravk hey acdw, I have a briefcase full of ducks, wtf do I do
2020-11-04 16:37:26 ew0k aravk: release them!
2020-11-04 16:37:34 ★ ew0k loads rifle
2020-11-04 16:37:37 ★ aravk releases the ducks
2020-11-04 16:37:39 aravk wait
2020-11-04 16:37:41 aravk HOLY CRAP
2020-11-04 16:37:42 aravk noooooo
2020-11-04 16:37:48 ew0k ,bang
2020-11-04 16:37:48 tildebot [Ducks] ew0k: There was no duck!
2020-11-04 16:37:56 aravk hah
2020-11-04 16:38:04 ew0k :D
2020-11-04 16:38:07 aravk xD
2020-11-04 16:42:22 acdw aravk: yes, ew0k was right, the best thing to do is release them
2020-11-04 16:42:25 acdw :P
2020-11-04 16:43:17 ★ aravk yells 'fly birdies, flyyyyyy'
2020-11-04 16:43:23 jcowan I use Lagrange's http proxy quite often, but I often have to turn it off because a site linked to by a Gemini or Gopher site is not a SmallWeb site.
2020-11-04 16:44:16 aravk SmallWeb™®©
2020-11-04 16:44:42 acdw dear god, make me a bird, so i can fly, far far away from here
2020-11-04 16:57:46 @tomasino oh jenny
2020-11-04 16:59:04 acdw me and jenny
2020-11-04 17:07:09 low-key What's your gemini site acdw?
2020-11-04 17:07:16 low-key Or have I already asked you this?
2020-11-04 17:07:20 low-key I'll bookmark it.
2020-11-04 17:08:01 low-key is there any gemini based wiki yet?
2020-11-04 17:09:46 aravk I don't think so
2020-11-04 17:10:00 aravk I would much rather prefer a distributed git-based wiki
2020-11-04 17:10:26 aravk perhaps require GPG signatures
2020-11-04 17:11:08 acdw low-key: gemini://gem.acdw.net
2020-11-04 17:11:15 acdw i don't know if you've asked
2020-11-04 17:11:26 acdw there *is* transjovian.org, which is a wiki
2020-11-04 17:11:43 acdw gemini://transjovian.org , i believe
2020-11-04 17:11:48 aravk oh yeah
2020-11-04 17:12:07 aravk but still
2020-11-04 17:12:11 acdw how active is it? idk :
2020-11-04 17:12:12 aravk why are git wikis not a thing
2020-11-04 17:12:12 acdw :)
2020-11-04 17:12:22 acdw Isn't Ikiwiki based on git?
2020-11-04 17:12:26 acdw tho that's http
2020-11-04 17:12:32 aravk git distributes best over http
2020-11-04 17:12:36 aravk or ssh
2020-11-04 17:12:49 aravk there isn't a gemini thing for git and imo there shouldn't be
2020-11-04 17:12:51 acdw or git://
2020-11-04 17:12:55 aravk yeah or git://
2020-11-04 17:13:02 aravk is git:// encrypted?
2020-11-04 17:13:09 acdw people ahve worked on gemini git interfaces
2020-11-04 17:13:12 acdw not that i know of
2020-11-04 17:15:11 acdw https://git-scm.com/book/en/v2/Git-on-the-Server-The-Protocols#the_git_protocol
2020-11-04 17:15:21 acdw "it listens on a dedicated port (9418) that provides a service similar to the SSH protocol, but with absolutely no authentication"
2020-11-04 17:18:14 aravk hmm
2020-11-04 17:18:22 aravk no encryption thuogh
2020-11-04 17:18:40 aravk but I think it does have some verification or smth so that your stuff can't be modified as you're receiving it
2020-11-04 17:19:14 aravk they keep mentioning that it's the same stuff as SSH but without encryption or authentication
2020-11-04 17:26:13 aravk where do I even ask about this
2020-11-04 17:27:04 low-key Thanks acdw :)
2020-11-04 17:27:42 low-key For the wiki as well.
2020-11-04 17:27:53 low-key It's this whole network effect thing once again.
2020-11-04 17:28:40 acdw sure :)
2020-11-04 17:28:53 acdw aravk: git:// is really only used as a pull protocol
2020-11-04 17:29:06 acdw so anyone can clone your repo, but if you want push prolly use ssh:
2020-11-04 17:29:26 low-key Also, ew0k and aravk, thanks for the chuckle.
2020-11-04 17:29:42 acdw as far as where to ask, IDK,,, maybe there's a #git channel on freenode or somethign?
2020-11-04 17:29:43 low-key The ducks thing.
2020-11-04 17:29:51 low-key Really needed a good laugh.
2020-11-04 17:29:55 acdw ducks are funny!
2020-11-04 17:29:59 acdw you okay low-key?
2020-11-04 17:30:03 low-key They were funnier
2020-11-04 17:30:12 low-key I am, thanks for asking :)
2020-11-04 17:30:15 low-key Just studies getting to me.
2020-11-04 17:30:30 acdw oh yes, they can be a lot!
2020-11-04 17:30:34 low-key This competitive exam culture is crushing
2020-11-04 17:30:37 acdw i do not miss my school days
2020-11-04 17:30:42 acdw oooof i can't even imagine
2020-11-04 17:30:50 low-key It's huge in India.
2020-11-04 17:31:08 low-key Pretty much defines your adolescence and youth.
2020-11-04 17:31:18 acdw oof
2020-11-04 17:31:20 acdw that sucks
2020-11-04 17:31:32 low-key Also, I'm new to irc so are we supposed to take the conversation elsewhere when it goes off topic?
2020-11-04 17:31:39 kiedtl it's OK
2020-11-04 17:32:02 kiedtl a little off-topic stuff won't do any harm. just don't discuss politics/religion here ;)
2020-11-04 17:32:04 acdw from my experience, if someone's annoyed they'll say "could you take this to #channel?"
2020-11-04 17:32:12 acdw +1 kiedtl
2020-11-04 17:32:24 acdw if it does get political we can go to #politics
2020-11-04 17:32:30 acdw religion, idk if there's a channel
2020-11-04 17:32:36 kiedtl no politics/religion cuz it inevitably leads to a flamwar
2020-11-04 17:32:44 kiedtl hm
2020-11-04 17:32:44 acdw that includes vim/emacs :P
2020-11-04 17:32:49 kiedtl lol
2020-11-04 17:33:04 kiedtl bye the way, I hate monospace fonts and you can't change my mind.
2020-11-04 17:33:10 kiedtl *by
2020-11-04 17:33:16 acdw :O
2020-11-04 17:33:24 acdw what do you code with kiedtl?
2020-11-04 17:33:28 acdw slash what's your fav font?
2020-11-04 17:33:31 kiedtl comic sans, what else?
2020-11-04 17:33:37 low-key I don't think I'm qualified to talk about politics or religion :P
2020-11-04 17:34:03 kiedtl neither am I ;P
2020-11-04 17:34:04 low-key I think monospace has its place
2020-11-04 17:34:10 low-key I would definitely not go with it everywhere
2020-11-04 17:34:18 low-key But used sparingly, it's a good aesthetic
2020-11-04 17:34:25 low-key And I do like it on my terminals
2020-11-04 17:34:41 low-key We could have a quick “everyone share your favourite font” here.
2020-11-04 17:34:47 kiedtl I was joking; I use monospace fonts everywhere ;)
2020-11-04 17:34:48 low-key I'll go first. JetBrains Mono!
2020-11-04 17:34:49 ★ kiedtl off
2020-11-04 17:35:19 kiedtl I use ttyp0, bitocra. Wish I could use firacode but for some reason it's blurry on my monitor
2020-11-04 17:35:21 acdw kiedtl: you know comic code?
2020-11-04 17:35:27 kiedtl umm, no?
2020-11-04 17:35:31 kiedtl never heard of it
2020-11-04 17:35:37 low-key First time I've heard those names kiedtl
2020-11-04 17:35:38 acdw JetBrains is nice. I love Go MOno
2020-11-04 17:35:49 low-key I think I've seen Go Mono.
2020-11-04 17:35:56 low-key I used to be a huge Hack fan before this.
2020-11-04 17:35:58 acdw it's serifed and monospaced
2020-11-04 17:36:01 low-key And Fira Code before that.
2020-11-04 17:36:06 acdw OH Victor Mono is great, it has cursive italics
2020-11-04 17:36:20 acdw ttyp0 is dope af
2020-11-04 17:36:26 low-key Okay, this I have to check out.
2020-11-04 17:36:45 acdw I just fount a serif font I really like
2020-11-04 17:37:06 acdw Spectral
2020-11-04 17:37:50 kiedtl ttyp0 is a better version of misc-fixed
2020-11-04 17:38:12 low-key I'll check that one out as well.
2020-11-04 17:38:20 low-key Always on the lookout for new fonts.
2020-11-04 17:38:33 low-key My present serif font is Piazzolla.
2020-11-04 17:39:56 aravk I like Fira Code / Fira Sans rn
2020-11-04 17:40:03 acdw also good
2020-11-04 17:40:04 aravk maybe something else later
2020-11-04 17:40:28 low-key My sans serif font right now is Inter.
2020-11-04 17:40:46 low-key I like Fira because you get a nice family of serif, sans and monospace.
2020-11-04 17:42:27 aravk only sad thing is that alacritty (my current terminal) doesn't support Fira ligaratures :(
2020-11-04 17:42:35 aravk that's how you spell it right
2020-11-04 17:42:38 aravk yeah
2020-11-04 17:43:03 kiedtl ligatures
2020-11-04 17:43:07 aravk oof
2020-11-04 17:43:10 kiedtl lol
2020-11-04 17:43:14 aravk it sounded wrong
2020-11-04 17:43:22 kiedtl sucks how many terminals don't support ligatures :V
2020-11-04 17:43:28 kiedtl my terminal, xterm, doesn't either
2020-11-04 17:43:32 kiedtl and afaik urxvt doesn't
2020-11-04 17:44:29 low-key Kitty ftw!
2020-11-04 17:44:36 low-key 🥳
2020-11-04 17:44:51 aravk kitty was good
2020-11-04 17:45:03 kiedtl never tried kitty tbh
2020-11-04 17:45:03 aravk I had switched to alacritty for some reason from kitty
2020-11-04 17:45:18 aravk kitty has cool stuff like a unicode symbol selection
2020-11-04 17:45:20 aravk ligatures
2020-11-04 17:45:30 aravk ipc
2020-11-04 17:45:36 aravk etc.
2020-11-04 17:45:44 aravk you can even display images inline
2020-11-04 17:46:01 low-key I actually wanted to try alacritty
2020-11-04 17:46:20 low-key But it had some issues and so tried kitty instead because I wanted to see what all the hype around gpu powered terminals was
2020-11-04 17:46:31 low-key Now I can't imagine using anything else.
2020-11-04 17:46:41 acdw lig-a-chres
2020-11-04 17:46:41 aravk I should switch back
2020-11-04 17:46:45 aravk also, low-key: indian?
2020-11-04 17:46:50 low-key Yup!
2020-11-04 17:46:53 aravk awesome, same
2020-11-04 17:46:58 low-key Whoa!
2020-11-04 17:47:01 aravk yeah!
2020-11-04 17:47:03 low-key That's a pleasant surprise :)
2020-11-04 17:47:30 aravk yeah, it's cool
2020-11-04 17:47:40 low-key So, the first question I must ask you.
2020-11-04 17:47:41 aravk though I managed to gtfo of india
2020-11-04 17:47:46 aravk yeah?
2020-11-04 17:47:52 low-key Which tilde has the best ping for you?
2020-11-04 17:47:52 aravk wait, maybe we should move to #meta
2020-11-04 17:47:57 low-key Oh, you aren't in India anymore.
2020-11-04 17:48:02 low-key Right
2020-11-04 17:49:17 acdw anyway, GEMINI. .. :P
2020-11-04 17:49:18 acdw hehe
2020-11-04 17:49:37 aravk he
2020-11-04 17:49:38 aravk he
2020-11-04 17:51:58 acdw *she
2020-11-04 18:17:38 ▬▬▶ southerntofu has joined #gemini
2020-11-04 18:24:45 acdw hey what response code should I return if someone asks for a different protocol ?
2020-11-04 18:24:56 acdw like,,,, 53 PROXY REQUEST REFUSED?
2020-11-04 18:29:34 kiedtl 54 GO AWAY CREEP
2020-11-04 18:29:41 kiedtl *53
2020-11-04 18:30:45 xfnw lol
2020-11-04 18:31:52 acdw lol
2020-11-04 18:39:26 insep lol
2020-11-04 18:44:42 aravk not found should be found
2020-11-04 18:44:49 aravk s/found$/fine/
2020-11-04 18:45:51 acdw hey so
2020-11-04 18:47:06 acdw i made a thing https://ttm.sh/d29.awk
2020-11-04 18:47:21 acdw i don't think it's finished and it has to be wraped up in network logic
2020-11-04 18:47:23 jcowan personally I like "53 No such luck, Doc! (chomp chomp)"
2020-11-04 18:47:29 jan6 you sure you did a thing? ;P
2020-11-04 18:47:45 acdw lol
2020-11-04 18:47:47 jcowan most of us do a thing every day or two
2020-11-04 18:47:55 acdw i do a coupe things a day
2020-11-04 18:48:10 jcowan Ouch. Perhaps consider takijng Imodium.
2020-11-04 18:48:37 acdw HEALTHY bowels poop anywhere from 3x a day to 3x a week
2020-11-04 18:48:39 acdw FACTS
2020-11-04 18:49:12 jan6 fake news
2020-11-04 18:49:45 acdw fake fake
2020-11-04 18:54:22 khuxkm acdw: spec says 53 PROXY REQUEST REFUSED
2020-11-04 18:54:38 khuxkm because it's a proxy request (different protocol) and you're refusing it
2020-11-04 18:54:40 khuxkm :P
2020-11-04 18:54:56 acdw oh I thought the message could be whatever
2020-11-04 18:55:27 jcowan Yes, the spec explicitly says that META in 2x-6x isn't controlled.
2020-11-04 18:55:30 khuxkm well the message can be whatever
2020-11-04 18:55:43 khuxkm but the definition of 53 is proxy request refused
2020-11-04 18:55:55 acdw oh okay cool
2020-11-04 18:56:01 acdw jcowan: what do you mean?
2020-11-04 18:56:45 jcowan The message associated with a response code is called META, and in 2x, 4x, 5x, and 6x responses it is to be displayed to the human user; the protocol doesn't depend on it.
2020-11-04 18:57:56 jcowan (Which is kinda bad from an i18n perspective, although the client can ignore it and display something else depending on the current locale.)
2020-11-04 18:58:05 khuxkm yeah; Big Tiddy Gemini Server returns a tar-like "Cowardly refusing to proxy <whatever> request" in META
2020-11-04 18:59:58 jcowan The really bad case for i18n is the 1x META, because it can be anything and the user is expected to understand it.
2020-11-04 19:00:16 acdw jcowan: ah, okay, cool
2020-11-04 19:00:19 acdw also yes
2020-11-04 19:00:20 acdw hmm
2020-11-04 19:00:25 acdw anyway out to lucnh
2020-11-04 19:00:27 acdw has quit (quit: https://web.tilde.chat - thelounge)
2020-11-04 19:01:17 jcowan I mean, you talk to a search engine for the Republic of Georgia, and it asks you "რას ეძებ?" What now?
2020-11-04 19:01:32 jcowan Of course, if you can't read Georgian you probably don't care about the result pages either.
2020-11-04 19:03:20 jan6 unless it's someone's bilingual blog, or something
2020-11-04 19:21:45 ▬▬▶ avane has joined #gemini
2020-11-04 19:40:07 ▬▬▶ kernel_pancake has joined #gemini
2020-11-04 19:45:47 khuxkm tildebot: tr ga:en რას ეძებ?
2020-11-04 19:45:48 tildebot [Translate] (ga -> en) რას ეძებ?
2020-11-04 19:45:51 khuxkm uh
2020-11-04 19:46:02 khuxkm oh
2020-11-04 19:46:26 khuxkm dumb idea: gemini://example.ga/.well-known/i18n?search.query
2020-11-04 19:46:44 khuxkm and then you send `10 რას ეძებ? (key: search.query)` or the like
2020-11-04 19:47:26 khuxkm it degrades well (if you speak Georgian), and smart clients can hit the i18n endpoint
2020-11-04 19:47:33 khuxkm ...which would need a language, one sec
2020-11-04 19:47:42 khuxkm gemini://example.ga/.well-known/i18n?en:search.query
2020-11-04 19:47:44 khuxkm there
2020-11-04 19:49:14 nihilazo has quit (quit: WeeChat 2.9)
2020-11-04 19:49:59 jcowan Okay, that's pretty good.
2020-11-04 19:51:17 khuxkm the main problem is figuring out (a) how to define that key string? since we want it to be easily parsable and (b) how to spec that
2020-11-04 19:51:30 khuxkm plus we'd probably want a client to handle that, and a server to test handling that...
2020-11-04 19:51:40 khuxkm and this goes back to my idea of a well-known registry for gemini
2020-11-04 19:59:49 khuxkm but that's something I think I'll make a geminilog (gemlog? glog? what are calling them?) about
2020-11-04 20:00:07 khuxkm which would actually be the first time I made a blog on something that wasn't HTTP
2020-11-04 20:04:34 kayw i think the most widely used name is gemlog but im not 100% sure
2020-11-04 20:07:32 makeworld Yep
2020-11-04 20:08:07 raiz why not call it a blog?
2020-11-04 20:09:55 khuxkm because blog is (we)blog
2020-11-04 20:10:06 raiz oh
2020-11-04 20:10:09 raiz TIL
2020-11-04 20:10:12 khuxkm gopher has phlogs, which are, I assume (go)ph(er)logs
2020-11-04 20:10:28 khuxkm so there would be precedent, in my mind, for gem(ini)logs
2020-11-04 20:10:50 khuxkm or even g(emini)logs if you want to go that far
2020-11-04 20:10:50 raiz yeah, generally, everyone I hear called them gemlogs
2020-11-04 20:12:04 boringcactus i think "glog" is more transparently parallel with "blog" and "phlog" but "gemlog" is more recognizable
2020-11-04 20:13:46 ▬▬▶ rb100 has joined #gemini
2020-11-04 20:19:21 khuxkm "ilog"/"nilog"/"milog" would be more parallel to the construction of "blog" and "phlog" (respectively, (gemin)ilog, (gemi)nilog, or (ge)mi(ni)log
2020-11-04 20:19:31 khuxkm the latter is actually how I think phlog was derived
2020-11-04 20:19:42 khuxkm but gemlog is the name that stuck so it's the name I'll use for mine
2020-11-04 20:29:43 ew0k I think we should have a protocol-agnostic name for them
2020-11-04 20:30:17 ew0k like... p(ersonal)log, or just journal
2020-11-04 20:30:37 ew0k but yeah, I call mine a gemlog too
2020-11-04 20:30:58 raiz journal is universal
2020-11-04 20:31:02 boringcactus honestly i think "blog" has evolved past any given protocol to be its own thing
2020-11-04 20:31:12 boringcactus like. i forgot until this convo that it came from "web log"
2020-11-04 20:31:24 raiz I didn't even know, lol
2020-11-04 20:31:41 khuxkm I'm too much of a nerd :P
2020-11-04 20:32:23 raiz the dict definition: "a website containing a writer's or group of writers' own experiences, observations, opinions, etc., and often having images and links to other websites."
2020-11-04 20:32:43 raiz its cursed
2020-11-04 20:32:46 raiz it has web on it
2020-11-04 20:32:51 boringcactus imo just call it a blog anyway, and let the "I'd just like to interject for a moment. What you're calling a 'blog' is actually a 'gemlog', or as I've recently taken to calling it, a 'glog'" people just do that
2020-11-04 20:32:57 ★ raiz waves that thing around
2020-11-04 20:35:20 khuxkm boringcactus: the problem is I'm one of those people
2020-11-04 20:35:47 khuxkm I call my web one a blog, my gopher one a phlog, and now I'll call my gemini one a gemlog
2020-11-04 20:35:54 boringcactus have you tried simply not being one of those people
2020-11-04 20:35:59 boringcactus i will call them all blogs anyway
2020-11-04 20:36:16 khuxkm boringcactus: again, I'm too much of a nerd
2020-11-04 20:36:17 ericonr (a-z)log
2020-11-04 20:36:24 ericonr sorry, [a-z]log
2020-11-04 20:36:24 boringcactus .*log
2020-11-04 20:36:30 khuxkm blog = "web log" and that's how it'll always be in my head
2020-11-04 20:36:43 khuxkm so gemlog it is, because that's the name everybody else is using
2020-11-04 20:37:02 ericonr boringcactus: çélog it is ;)
2020-11-04 20:37:22 boringcactus 🤷log
2020-11-04 20:38:00 ericonr I like that
2020-11-04 20:51:54 rb100 has quit (quit: leaving)
2020-11-04 20:53:08 khuxkm what is -- for in text/gemini? horizontal rule? comment?
2020-11-04 20:54:13 boringcactus iirc it doesn't have any particular significance to the protocol itself
2020-11-04 20:55:08 khuxkm well some people are using it for *something*, I just don't know what that thing is
2020-11-04 20:59:48 aravk rn there are suggestions to use it to license content
2020-11-04 20:59:50 aravk see the ML
2020-11-04 21:01:02 khuxkm >Another solution might be to send a single part multipart/mixed response, which IIRC can do headers.
2020-11-04 21:01:05 khuxkm this is cursed
2020-11-04 21:02:11 CommunistWolf ah, but technically allowed
2020-11-04 21:02:31 CommunistWolf I suggested transfer-encoding: chunked but that didn't seem to get noticed
2020-11-04 21:02:33 raiz I didn't even understand what they meant to be honest
2020-11-04 21:03:02 CommunistWolf put your gemini (or whatever) file in a container format that can carry metadata, more or less
2020-11-04 21:03:30 khuxkm `20 multipart/mixed\r\nContent-Length: 15\r\nContent-Type: text/plain\r\n\r\nHello, world!\r\n`
2020-11-04 21:03:51 raiz I see
2020-11-04 21:04:51 raiz that's a clever way to achieve an unclever task
2020-11-04 21:32:44 jcowan khuxkm: I think a slightly better approach to internationalized queries is something to provide links to gemini://example.ge/search-query?lang=ka and gemini://example.ge/search-query?lang=en.
2020-11-04 21:35:35 khuxkm idk, I kinda like my idea better
2020-11-04 21:35:58 jcowan Then if the server provides lots of languages, gemini://example.ge/search-query?lang=* will give you links to searches in en, ka, ab, etc.
2020-11-04 21:37:06 khuxkm that may be a better approach for your search example, but I feel like having an i18n endpoint is more versatile
2020-11-04 21:37:25 jcowan I can see that.
2020-11-04 21:38:26 khuxkm plus, I've wanted to make a Gemini well-known endpoints registry for more than one problem now
2020-11-04 21:38:32 khuxkm so I figure I can get that done
2020-11-04 21:38:32 jcowan (By the way, "რას ეძებ?" means "What are you looking for?")
2020-11-04 21:38:44 khuxkm yeah I google translated it when you first brought it up
2020-11-04 21:38:53 khuxkm that's how I knew it had to do with the search query
2020-11-04 21:39:42 jcowan Another problem is that an English/French server probably wants to return different results to an anglophone who searches for "chat" than a francophone who does the same.
2020-11-04 21:40:41 jcowan I suppose that could be carried somewhere in the client cert
2020-11-04 21:43:15 bie ooo that's interesting
2020-11-04 21:43:46 bie should properly look into how client certs work
2020-11-04 21:44:06 bie can they carry, like, arbitrary metadata?
2020-11-04 21:45:33 jcowan In principle yes. The trick is to make sure that everyone agrees on the same field name for a given purpose.
2020-11-04 21:45:52 bie right, right
2020-11-04 21:46:02 jcowan One of the standard names is "favouriteDrink", precisely to illustrate this flexibility
2020-11-04 21:46:29 jcowan so this would be "preferredLanguages"
2020-11-04 21:47:10 bie i really like that idea, though... been thinking about it how to handle languages for my personal gemini thingie
2020-11-04 21:47:42 jcowan language tags can be quite specific, like "sr-Latn-RS" meaning "Serbian written in the Latin script as used in Serbia".
2020-11-04 21:48:00 raiz has quit (quit: EOF)
2020-11-04 21:53:25 bie yea.. personally i'd prefer something simpler, like iso 639-1
2020-11-04 22:02:01 jcowan Oh, all the ISO 639-1 tags work too.
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2020-11-04 22:16:15 bie sooo are there any gemini servers that do anything interesting with client certs?
2020-11-04 22:16:40 @tomasino astrobotany
2020-11-04 22:17:18 bie oo thanks, looking at it now
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2020-11-04 22:22:31 Sario|IRCCloud tomasino: thanks for the reminder, my poor plant was mighty thirsty
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2020-11-04 22:53:43 jcowan bie: MB allows you to limit parts of your site to specified users as identified by their certs.
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2020-11-04 22:56:08 bie jcowan: MB?
2020-11-04 22:56:20 jcowan The Unsinkable Molly Brown
2020-11-04 22:56:29 bie thanks!
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2020-11-04 22:57:42 jcowan It would be straightforward to write a gemini->gemini proxy that added support like that to any arbitrary Gemini server. The server owner would keep the real server behind the firewall and only expose the proxy. Then people who want to subscribe to private parts of the server send in their certs or SHA256 hashes of them, and the proxy redirects accordingly
2020-11-04 22:58:37 bie i'm trying to figure out how to add support for client certs to my own gemini server now, but i think i'm doing something wrong
2020-11-04 22:59:34 bie libtls' tls_peer_cert_provided() is failing
2020-11-04 23:00:06 jcowan ya got me there
2020-11-04 23:00:14 jcowan probably the mailing list would be more helpful
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2020-11-04 23:09:54 bie ! figured it out... just had to set some options
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2020-11-04 23:12:36 jcowan The main limitations of certs is that you can only use them to grant access to particular people, not to deny access, because the people you want to block can just switch to a different cert.
2020-11-04 23:13:12 jcowan there is no "registration" foofooraw to go through
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2020-11-04 23:24:34 acdw what's the thing that's not stunnel that I should run server stuff thru?
2020-11-04 23:26:12 bie socat?
2020-11-04 23:26:51 acdw yeah, that's it I think :)
2020-11-04 23:28:15 acdw how wold i wrap that with ssl tho?
2020-11-04 23:31:12 bie what i used was something like socat openssl-listen:1965,reuseaddr,fork,verify=0,cert=<crt>,key=<key> exec:./mygeminiserver
2020-11-04 23:32:40 acdw thank!!!!!!
2020-11-04 23:33:50 acdw openssl-listen? or bidirectional?
2020-11-04 23:33:54 bie hope that helps - i switched to just handling it myself through libressl and no longer have the exact command i used before lol
2020-11-04 23:34:01 bie uh, pretty sure i used openssl-listen
2020-11-04 23:35:34 acdw thank you so very much :) any pluses to libressl?
2020-11-04 23:35:43 acdw or do you mena you use the library from your server?
2020-11-04 23:38:02 bie i use the library
2020-11-04 23:38:20 makeworld Finally have some time to work on Amfora tonight
2020-11-04 23:38:25 acdw oh nice
2020-11-04 23:38:28 acdw both of ya
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2020-11-05 00:24:53 acdw bread
2020-11-05 00:29:36 kiedtl butter
2020-11-05 00:29:43 acdw cheese?
2020-11-05 00:30:03 kiedtl butterkase cheese!
2020-11-05 00:30:13 kiedtl Not sure if I spelled that correctly.
2020-11-05 00:30:23 acdw oh i've herad of that
2020-11-05 00:30:27 acdw good rigth?
2020-11-05 00:30:56 kiedtl delicious
2020-11-05 00:31:02 acdw mmmmmmmm
2020-11-05 00:31:04 acdw cheese
2020-11-05 00:38:54 makeworld I'm going to disable caching for domains that are being sent client certs in Amfora. Thoughts?
2020-11-05 00:39:34 acdw I thinki that makes sense -- if you're usnig a client cert, it's probably application-y
2020-11-05 00:39:34 kevinsan i'd like caching disabled entirely
2020-11-05 00:39:45 acdw tho... god mode would be enabling caching per-domain, by the user
2020-11-05 00:40:21 makeworld kevinsan: Why?
2020-11-05 00:42:19 makeworld You can effectively disable the cache by setting max_size to 1
2020-11-05 00:42:20 kevinsan makeworld: to save reloads on dynamic content, i seem to recall having to ctrl-r on amfora more than i'd like
2020-11-05 00:42:31 makeworld Hmm yeah there is a balance there
2020-11-05 00:42:57 makeworld It's hard to strike, I just know I want caching to exist bc it really improves the experience for reading, the difference is notable
2020-11-05 00:43:13 makeworld Unfortunately there's no good heuristic
2020-11-05 00:43:43 kevinsan it depends on usage. e.g. a back operation would make sense to fetch from cache. a redirect should re-fetch the page
2020-11-05 00:43:50 makeworld A much older version disabled caching on URLs with query strings. But that was disabled because it made GUS slow with all the back and forth that happens when searching for something
2020-11-05 00:43:51 bie kevinsan: ++
2020-11-05 00:43:55 makeworld Hmm yeah
2020-11-05 00:44:09 jcowan I wouldn't say that certs imply an application, see above for using certs for access control.
2020-11-05 00:44:33 bie if there's an "up" operation i think that should bypass caching too
2020-11-05 00:44:46 bie imo caching only makes sense for the "back" action
2020-11-05 00:44:51 makeworld Not sure what "up" means
2020-11-05 00:44:57 makeworld Also "forward", no? bie
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2020-11-05 00:45:20 bie i suppose forward too, as long as it's initiated specifically as a forward action
2020-11-05 00:45:23 makeworld jcowan: Maybe yeah. If I disable cache on redirects maybe I'll renable it for client cert stuff
2020-11-05 00:45:25 makeworld Yeah
2020-11-05 00:46:06 bie up in av-98 is just going from gemini://a/b/c to gemini://a/b
2020-11-05 00:46:10 bie no matter where you "came from"
2020-11-05 00:46:12 bie AV-98> help up
2020-11-05 00:46:13 bie Go up one directory in the path.
2020-11-05 00:46:25 kevinsan it's a nice client btw makeworld, definitely up there as terminal clients go
2020-11-05 00:46:26 makeworld "URLs or searches typed in the bottom bar are not loaded from the cache"
2020-11-05 00:46:29 makeworld Thanks :)
2020-11-05 00:46:57 makeworld bie: In Amfora you can type .., but yeah I don't think that's from the cache, see what I quoted above
2020-11-05 00:47:54 makeworld https://github.com/makeworld-the-better-one/amfora/issues/114
2020-11-05 00:48:10 makeworld Made an issue for what kevinsan said
2020-11-05 00:49:12 makeworld Might that fit that into next release, we'll see
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2020-11-05 02:43:18 makeworld I've decide to disable cache for redirects, but still leave it off for client certs. After testing with Astrobotany, there's still problems where it will use a cached message
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2020-11-05 03:07:50 makeworld Woot woot v1.6.0 is out!
2020-11-05 03:14:08 makeworld Gemini client certs can just be the same as server certs right? I'm not missing anything?
2020-11-05 03:14:12 makeworld And what about expiry dates?
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2020-11-05 03:19:07 makeworld Well I've added a command to the README now, without a long expiry. Hope it's good
2020-11-05 03:19:13 makeworld openssl req -new -subj "/CN=username" -x509 -newkey ec -pkeyopt ec_paramgen_curve:prime256v1 -nodes -out cert.pem -keyout key.pem
2020-11-05 03:20:09 kayw idea: host my gemini server on my rpi and use reverse ssh tunneling to expose it on my vps
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2020-11-05 03:33:41 lowkey makeworld: hello!
2020-11-05 03:33:45 lowkey so nice to run into you here!
2020-11-05 03:34:17 lowkey just want to thank you for the phenomenal work on amfora! It's the finest gemini client i've used and is a major part of my love for gemini itself.
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2020-11-05 05:26:47 acdw hmm i just realized.. the server in awk should exit after every "line" (request) of input
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2020-11-05 06:08:18 mieum lowkey: I agree amfora is wonderful :)
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2020-11-05 07:20:39 ew0k amfora++
2020-11-05 07:21:46 ew0k makeworld: I'm not sure this is a good idea, but maybe cache sites of a certain size? I don't know how *long* a site should be cached, though.
2020-11-05 07:22:33 ew0k Personally I don't mind hitting refresh manually every now and then -- I have the habit of doing that a lot on the web too, even on sites that *supposedly* update elements dynamically.
2020-11-05 07:23:25 bie not all sites tell you that they're doing dynamic updates, though
2020-11-05 07:24:36 ew0k bie: true. And many that do fail to update in a timely manner, imho
2020-11-05 07:25:07 bie well, for gemini the only reason they would fail to update would be
2020-11-05 07:25:13 bie a client arbitrarily caching content
2020-11-05 07:26:16 bie i really don't see the big win for caching anything... like i said earlier - going to a cache for back and forward action is fine, but i anything more than that feels unnecessary and intrusive to me
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2020-11-05 07:30:37 ew0k1 bie: the back and forward actions are definitely the only cases I sort of *expect* caching to happen
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2020-11-05 07:31:24 ew0k1 wow... my network is really shit today
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2020-11-05 09:30:08 ew0k Rocketeer! Gemini browser on iOS :D Available through Testflight
2020-11-05 09:30:59 bie rocketeer is neat! it crashes when trying to access my gemini server tho -,-
2020-11-05 09:32:39 ew0k :(
2020-11-05 09:32:58 ew0k well, still better than not having a gemini browser on the phone at all :)
2020-11-05 09:33:20 bie true, true! and it will hopefully be fixed in the near future
2020-11-05 09:33:24 bie https://git.shadowfacts.net/shadowfacts/Gemini/issues/2
2020-11-05 09:36:37 bie ... currently running a really badly written gemini crawler so i can have my own search engine
2020-11-05 09:37:01 bie it hasn't crashed ~yet~
2020-11-05 09:39:37 ew0k bie: if you index a bunch of pages and figure out a decent search algorithm I'd love to see the resulting engine :)
2020-11-05 09:40:04 ew0k does anyone have links to gemini pages about the titan and/or dioscuri protocols?
2020-11-05 09:40:06 bie oh i'll definitely make it available once it's a bit closer too being ready
2020-11-05 09:52:38 ew0k I've had lots of great feedback on my "Gemini and POST" gemlog. Gonna try to write a follow-up today or tomorrow :)
2020-11-05 09:54:39 bie ew0k: where's your gemlog~?
2020-11-05 09:56:20 insep gemini://tilde.team/~ew0k/gemini-and-post.gmi
2020-11-05 09:57:28 bie \o/
2020-11-05 10:02:13 nixo Hi, I've got another specs question, this time on text/gemini. In 5.3 it says " It is possible to unambiguously determine a line's type purely by inspecting its first three characters". Then, in 5.5.1, Heading lines consist of one, two or three consecutive "#" characters, followed by optional whitespace, followed by heading text.
2020-11-05 10:02:34 nixo Does it mean that "####" is parsed as "3rd level heading, whose text is "#"?
2020-11-05 10:19:26 ew0k nixo: yup!
2020-11-05 10:19:54 ew0k bie: sorry, went to lunch and missed your question :)
2020-11-05 10:23:55 nixo ew0k: thanks, so elpher is wrong
2020-11-05 10:29:23 ew0k elpher?
2020-11-05 10:30:37 nixo emacs gopher+gemini client
2020-11-05 10:32:55 ew0k never tried it, so I wouldn't know. But there are no fourth level headings in the spec, and as you say the spec explicitly states the whitespace after #, ##, or ### as optional
2020-11-05 10:34:05 nixo yep, I wanted to be sure before submitting the bug report
2020-11-05 10:34:43 ew0k 👍
2020-11-05 10:40:49 ew0k nixo: and because of this discussion I realized that my gmi2html tool treated the whitespace as mandatory :D I've now amended that
2020-11-05 10:46:13 ew0k nixo: in other words; thanks for bringing it up
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2020-11-05 12:29:17 kiedtl tomasino: why don't you include a link to the channel logs in the TOPIC?
2020-11-05 12:33:20 khuxkm gemini://makeworld.gq/irc/ methinks
2020-11-05 12:33:33 khuxkm also the link to tomasino's log is broken (RIP tilde.black)
2020-11-05 12:57:37 @tomasino tilde.team/~tomasino
2020-11-05 12:58:45 kiedtl uhg
2020-11-05 12:58:54 kiedtl tilde.team/~tomasino/irc/log.txt
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2020-11-05 13:15:56 jcowan ew0k: http://tinyurl.com/dioscuri-protocol
2020-11-05 13:16:18 jcowan also links to titan (and gemini in case you needed that)
2020-11-05 13:18:22 jcowan well, it doesn't, but it will if I can find a stable link
2020-11-05 13:19:26 jcowan okay, added link to https://communitywiki.org/wiki/Titan
2020-11-05 13:22:40 ew0k jcowan: thank you! I'd only found the ML posts about it, and haven't read them all :)
2020-11-05 13:26:51 jcowan I designed Dioscuri primarily as an application protocol rather than a browser protocol.
2020-11-05 13:27:30 jcowan One of the powers of the web right now is that you can download a fairly-safe specialized client application with your browser, which provides a bunch of features for it.
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2020-11-05 13:28:40 jcowan OTOH, it was never designed for that purpose, and it shows: the Single Page Application space is a pile of crazy hacks.
2020-11-05 13:29:26 jcowan Designing an application-running framework from the ground up would be a truly excellent thing to do.
2020-11-05 13:31:35 jcowan (wasm is a reasonable place to start)
2020-11-05 13:50:36 makeworld low-key mieum: Thanks guys! :)
2020-11-05 13:52:08 makeworld ew0k: Re: cache sites of a certain size: You mean like cache based on page size? I'm not sure, caching even makes a difference when pages are small. I'm going to add a cache timeout though, so that might help.
2020-11-05 13:52:34 makeworld Something short like 10 mins
2020-11-05 13:58:55 ew0k makeworld: how much of a difference does it make?
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2020-11-05 14:00:09 makeworld Does caching make, on small pages? Depends on the server, but in my experience it's noticeable
2020-11-05 14:00:31 makeworld But it's mostly just noticeable when going back and forward
2020-11-05 14:00:50 jcowan A lot of the Small Internet is static, though, and caching is a huge win there, especially if you can tell your client "Don't refresh this page, ever."
2020-11-05 14:00:53 ew0k yeah, that's what I meant :) Sorry for not being clearer
2020-11-05 14:00:58 makeworld All good
2020-11-05 14:01:31 makeworld It's a difficult balance, but I think adding a timeout to the cache is useful, especially if people are leaving Amfora running
2020-11-05 14:01:51 makeworld You could leave it open all night, but it seems dumb for it to use the cache in the morning
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2020-11-05 14:02:10 ew0k jcowan: especially when you download larger files like images. I often forget that I've downloaded an image, for example, and end up downloading it again
2020-11-05 14:02:14 makeworld Maybe 30 mins is a better number though, idk
2020-11-05 14:02:45 ew0k CAPCOM reads atom feeds every 6 hours
2020-11-05 14:02:49 jcowan I an probably biased by not living in Mobileworld, but 2 weeks sounds better to me.
2020-11-05 14:02:59 ew0k most pages won't update even that often :D
2020-11-05 14:03:05 jcowan Exactly
2020-11-05 14:03:38 ew0k an index.gmi or index.gemini is also likely to update more often than, say a gemlog post
2020-11-05 14:06:18 makeworld Well right now Amfora just caches for the entire session, with specific exceptions like I've talked about. The session is rarely going to be 2 weeks long
2020-11-05 14:06:24 makeworld I'm pretty on the fence about this
2020-11-05 14:06:44 makeworld Whether have a timeout or not, I mean
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2020-11-05 14:27:27 khuxkm oh, btw, I'm now also publishing my logs
2020-11-05 14:27:36 khuxkm so we have 2-3 separate places where logs are being kept
2020-11-05 14:27:45 khuxkm I figure redundancy is ke
2020-11-05 14:27:48 khuxkm s/$/y/
2020-11-05 14:28:00 khuxkm gemini://tilde.team/~khuxkm/irc.log
2020-11-05 14:40:21 kiedtl Why not just have a single logging bot?
2020-11-05 14:42:22 @tomasino at the time i tossed mine up cause i had one of the oldest channel logs
2020-11-05 14:42:39 @tomasino if someone wants ta make a logging bot you can feel free to grab my logs as a starting point an I can kill the cronjob
2020-11-05 14:42:52 kiedtl I might take a stab at that
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2020-11-05 15:02:59 __restrict Are there any gemini archives of the mailing lists?
2020-11-05 15:03:16 @tomasino i think?
2020-11-05 15:03:19 @tomasino lemme check
2020-11-05 15:04:30 @tomasino hrm, not finding any
2020-11-05 15:04:33 @tomasino just the web versions
2020-11-05 15:05:59 __restrict ouch. kinda ironic.
2020-11-05 15:06:27 raiz no one wrote one
2020-11-05 15:06:38 raiz tbf
2020-11-05 15:07:19 @tomasino https://lists.orbitalfox.eu/archives/gemini/
2020-11-05 15:07:32 @tomasino that's alls we got, until someone wraps it
2020-11-05 15:08:18 @tomasino would be nice if someone did wrap it or auto-fetched messages nightly and strapped a search on the front
2020-11-05 15:08:35 @tomasino we tend to refer people to the list a lot
2020-11-05 15:13:57 makeworld Hold no there is a gemini version
2020-11-05 15:14:18 makeworld gemini://rawtext.club/~sloum/geminilist/
2020-11-05 15:14:30 @tomasino oh good
2020-11-05 15:14:31 makeworld __restrict raiz tomasino ^^
2020-11-05 15:14:37 @tomasino it didn't show up in GUS
2020-11-05 15:14:55 makeworld Oh really? It shows up a lot in GUS for me, like when I'm searching for almost anything ha
2020-11-05 15:14:56 @tomasino at least not when i searched "mailing list archive"
2020-11-05 15:15:30 makeworld Huh yeah
2020-11-05 15:15:42 @tomasino weird
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2020-11-05 15:19:07 khuxkm ooh, a logging bot would be nice
2020-11-05 15:19:46 khuxkm I'll let kiedtl/__restrict try it first though
2020-11-05 15:23:32 raiz makeworld: nice
2020-11-05 15:25:15 raiz https://gemini.circumlunar.space/docs/faq.html
2020-11-05 15:25:16 raiz 1.3
2020-11-05 15:25:19 raiz its there, lol
2020-11-05 15:25:58 acdw lolol
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2020-11-05 15:29:15 khuxkm makeworld: why does amphora assume an address with spaces is a GUS query? it's not wrong behavior but I'm curious
2020-11-05 15:29:44 khuxkm for instance, if I type "https://example.com/test file.txt" into my Chromebook, Chrome automatically sees the address and encodes the space
2020-11-05 15:30:04 khuxkm vs typing "gemini://7f000001.nip.io/test text file.txt" and getting sent to GUS
2020-11-05 15:33:32 acdw makeworld: your tomasino irc logs link is broke
2020-11-05 15:33:36 acdw it points to tilde.black (RIP)
2020-11-05 15:36:35 @tomasino Where?
2020-11-05 15:36:47 @tomasino On team?
2020-11-05 15:37:09 @tomasino Oh makeworld's link
2020-11-05 15:43:57 acdw yeah
2020-11-05 15:44:01 acdw sry to ping ya tomasino
2020-11-05 15:44:08 acdw oops i did it again
2020-11-05 15:44:13 acdw i played with your nick
2020-11-05 15:44:16 acdw got lost in the game
2020-11-05 15:44:18 acdw ooh tomasino tomasino
2020-11-05 15:44:23 acdw ooh i think we're in chat
2020-11-05 15:44:39 acdw i'm sent from aboooooooovveeee
2020-11-05 15:44:46 acdw I'm NOT. That INNOcent
2020-11-05 15:48:38 acdw okay so i'm testing my awk server
2020-11-05 15:48:43 acdw it's doing okay! served itself
2020-11-05 15:49:37 acdw trying to decide how to mime-types
2020-11-05 15:52:16 ew0k acdw: tell me again why you decided to make a gemini server in awk. And how you solved TLS
2020-11-05 15:53:09 @tomasino heh
2020-11-05 15:57:44 acdw ew0k: b/c .. the emems? shit idk
2020-11-05 15:57:49 acdw tls is gonna be with a wrapper
2020-11-05 15:57:58 acdw socat I think --- of course the actual script will be in sh
2020-11-05 15:58:00 acdw POSIX sh
2020-11-05 15:58:08 acdw and i was thinking of trying to do multiplexing using make
2020-11-05 16:05:44 makeworld acdw: My full log? Yeah I disabled it bc it's kinda a big file to serve from my home internet
2020-11-05 16:05:57 makeworld Idk maybe it's doesn't actually matter, only a few megabytes
2020-11-05 16:08:11 jcowan It's always important to remember that bandwidth is a *cost*, not a benefit.
2020-11-05 16:08:20 acdw oh yeah, that's fine. i was talking about the link to tomas-ino's full log
2020-11-05 16:09:01 acdw you have it as tilde.black, which is no more
2020-11-05 16:09:10 acdw i think it's now on tilde.team/~tomasino
2020-11-05 16:12:00 makeworld Ohh
2020-11-05 16:12:04 makeworld Hmm ok
2020-11-05 16:12:58 makeworld Updated
2020-11-05 16:13:19 acdw :D
2020-11-05 16:13:59 makeworld I should make a streaming version of the log hehe
2020-11-05 16:14:17 makeworld Also stream support for Amfora is in sight! Far away, but in sight
2020-11-05 16:14:41 acdw has quit (quit: https://web.tilde.chat - thelounge)
2020-11-05 16:15:49 @tomasino yay!
2020-11-05 16:16:07 @tomasino a streaming version of the log IRC log would be great
2020-11-05 16:16:11 @tomasino lurking mode
2020-11-05 16:16:21 ▬▬▶ acdw has joined #gemini
2020-11-05 16:16:46 makeworld Yeah lol
2020-11-05 16:16:55 acdw heck yeah makeworld
2020-11-05 16:17:16 acdw you should call it gemini://makeworld.gq/irc/lurk
2020-11-05 16:17:18 admicos gemini long polling?
2020-11-05 16:17:24 makeworld Ha
2020-11-05 16:17:33 makeworld admicos: Yeah sorta. Check out chat.mozz.us for a demo
2020-11-05 16:17:57 admicos neat
2020-11-05 16:19:14 ▬▬▶ lowkey has joined #gemini
2020-11-05 16:22:00 @tomasino no need to poll with gemini+stream goodness
2020-11-05 16:22:20 @tomasino just don't close the connection and parse as data received, line by line
2020-11-05 16:23:00 makeworld Wait are people actually using gemini+stream?
2020-11-05 16:23:17 lowkey has quit (Ping timeout: 120 seconds)
2020-11-05 16:26:33 @tomasino make it and they will come
2020-11-05 16:26:43 @tomasino someone's gotta be first
2020-11-05 16:26:59 acdw okay kevin costner :P
2020-11-05 16:28:35 @tomasino :D
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2020-11-05 16:29:16 @tomasino as a very active community member who devs absolutely nothing for gemini, i fully support someone else doing it.
2020-11-05 16:29:16 ▬▬▶ nixo has joined #gemini
2020-11-05 16:33:17 acdw haha
2020-11-05 16:33:38 acdw tomasino: you *don't* dev anything for gemini :O you should write a server that outputs a random bjork wisdom
2020-11-05 16:44:50 raiz tomasino: I was thinking about that yesterday
2020-11-05 16:44:59 raiz except instead of text, I thought of audio or video
2020-11-05 16:45:10 ▬▬▶ lowkey has joined #gemini
2020-11-05 16:45:17 raiz a server optimised for such purpose would be required though
2020-11-05 16:45:46 raiz since gemini can be handled with a single thread server because connections are closed after the transaction
2020-11-05 16:46:10 raiz no need to fork
2020-11-05 16:49:39 makeworld I mean unless you want more than 1 person connected at once lol
2020-11-05 16:51:19 lowkey how do i get gemini syntax highlighting for neovim?
2020-11-05 16:51:44 lowkey makeworld: i'm the guy who made that request about allowing the help page to be themed on amfora
2020-11-05 16:52:24 lowkey if you could point me in the direction of your implementation for the rest of the elements, i coulddo it for the help page
2020-11-05 16:52:28 raiz for serving content, queue can be used
2020-11-05 17:05:35 alex11 has quit (Client exited)
2020-11-05 17:06:25 lowkey can amfora not load local pages?
2020-11-05 17:07:12 @tomasino um, i think there's a syntax file or two linked on the circumlunar site, lowkey
2020-11-05 17:07:39 lowkey i got the syntax file :)
2020-11-05 17:07:53 lowkey though i'm having issues getting neovim to pick it up
2020-11-05 17:07:55 @tomasino rel="noopener noreferrer"
2020-11-05 17:07:59 @tomasino er, bad copy/patse
2020-11-05 17:08:09 lowkey dropped it into ~/.config/nvim/syntax/
2020-11-05 17:08:13 @tomasino https://tildegit.org/sloum/gemini-vim-syntax
2020-11-05 17:08:24 @tomasino try using a vim-plug or something to install it
2020-11-05 17:08:38 lowkey oh, it needs that?
2020-11-05 17:08:48 lowkey the documentation on the neovim site said i simply need to drop the files in
2020-11-05 17:08:50 @tomasino there's native plugin loading
2020-11-05 17:08:54 @tomasino and you can manually drop files
2020-11-05 17:08:59 @tomasino i find it much easier just to use vim-plug though
2020-11-05 17:09:03 jan6 neovim, or vim native?
2020-11-05 17:09:08 lowkey neovim
2020-11-05 17:09:29 @tomasino https://github.com/jamestomasino/dotfiles-minimal/blob/master/.config/nvim/init.vim
2020-11-05 17:09:33 jan6 then it should be gemini-neovim-syntax ;P
2020-11-05 17:09:34 @tomasino see the vim plug stuff at the top for examples
2020-11-05 17:09:59 @tomasino don't confuse 'em more, jan6
2020-11-05 17:10:30 jan6 CONFUSSIOOONN
2020-11-05 17:10:35 @tomasino though, i don't know if that repo is set up to use a plugin at all
2020-11-05 17:10:42 @tomasino the instructions have a makefile going
2020-11-05 17:10:42 jan6 I specifically asked about vim or neovi NATIVE plugin loading
2020-11-05 17:10:49 jan6 so it's more they confused me
2020-11-05 17:10:50 jan6 lol
2020-11-05 17:11:13 lowkey yeah, i just presumed it wasn't setup as a plugin repo
2020-11-05 17:11:21 lowkey with its make based instructions
2020-11-05 17:11:44 lowkey tomasino: the page you linked me to 404s
2020-11-05 17:11:55 jan6 no it doesn't
2020-11-05 17:12:16 jan6 https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jamestomasino/dotfiles-minimal/master/.config/nvim/init.vim would be the raw version
2020-11-05 17:12:27 jan6 but the link works fine for me, just copy it again?
2020-11-05 17:12:29 @tomasino eh, all working here and just examples
2020-11-05 17:12:33 lowkey my bad, kitty was only reading the part up until init. as the url
2020-11-05 17:12:44 lowkey it was dropping the .vim at the end
2020-11-05 17:12:47 jan6 it starts with stuff like
2020-11-05 17:12:51 jan6 iletype off
2020-11-05 17:12:51 jan6 call plug#begin('$XDG_DATA_HOME/vim/plugged')
2020-11-05 17:12:51 jan6 " Global
2020-11-05 17:12:51 jan6 Plug 'embear/vim-localvimrc'
2020-11-05 17:12:51 jan6 Plug 'junegunn/fzf', { 'dir': '~/.fzf', 'do': './install --all' }
2020-11-05 17:12:51 jan6 Plug 'junegunn/fzf.vim'
2020-11-05 17:12:57 jan6 *filetype off
2020-11-05 17:13:01 jan6 oh you got it already
2020-11-05 17:13:28 @tomasino but anywho, like i said, not sure if it'll work wit that particular repo. It doesn't look like the normal install procedure
2020-11-05 17:13:45 @tomasino i never bothered with syntax highlighting on gemtext. Seemed unnecessary
2020-11-05 17:14:16 lowkey i just thought it would be a nice touch
2020-11-05 17:14:20 @tomasino Plug 'https://tildegit.org/sloum/gemini-vim-syntax' " would be the full plug line for this one
2020-11-05 17:14:29 khuxkm oh I should write a nano syntax highlighter for gemtext
2020-11-05 17:14:36 lowkey also, you have a man page and it is the most amazing thing i've come across today!
2020-11-05 17:14:53 @tomasino :D
2020-11-05 17:14:53 lowkey it's brilliant!
2020-11-05 17:15:01 @tomasino thanks
2020-11-05 17:15:11 @tomasino https://github.com/junegunn/vim-plug - this is the plugin manager thingy i use for vim/neovim
2020-11-05 17:15:16 @tomasino good instructions there
2020-11-05 17:15:22 @tomasino off to dinner
2020-11-05 17:15:48 jan6 lol
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2020-11-05 17:16:37 lowkey_ okay, i can manually set it to gmi and it works fine
2020-11-05 17:16:47 lowkey_ the autodetect for the filetype still isn't working though
2020-11-05 17:18:45 acdw khuxkm : I think ther might be one
2020-11-05 17:18:59 acdw is junegunn into animal liberation?!
2020-11-05 17:19:10 lowkey has quit (Ping timeout: 120 seconds)
2020-11-05 17:19:11 acdw i mean, super cool if true
2020-11-05 17:19:29 acdw oh yeah, github avi is peter singer's book
2020-11-05 17:20:06 lowkey_ hi acdw!
2020-11-05 17:20:31 ℹ lowkey_ is now known as lowkey
2020-11-05 17:20:37 acdw hi lowkey_!
2020-11-05 17:20:40 acdw lowkey!
2020-11-05 17:20:41 acdw hm
2020-11-05 17:20:44 lowkey hehe :P
2020-11-05 17:20:48 acdw omg
2020-11-05 17:20:48 lowkey i keep losing my nick
2020-11-05 17:20:56 acdw here it is!: lowkey
2020-11-05 17:20:59 acdw :P
2020-11-05 17:20:59 lowkey because of that ip reassignemnt thing
2020-11-05 17:21:12 lowkey so i'm on the verge of launching my gemini server
2020-11-05 17:21:19 lowkey but i dunno how to go about generating certs
2020-11-05 17:21:22 acdw oh nice!
2020-11-05 17:21:25 lowkey :(
2020-11-05 17:21:26 acdw i like gemcert, it's easy
2020-11-05 17:21:33 acdw or you can do an openssl thing
2020-11-05 17:21:37 acdw hang on lemme find it
2020-11-05 17:21:42 acdw (this should be in FAQ imo)
2020-11-05 17:22:00 lowkey um, i can't seem to find it on duckduckgo
2020-11-05 17:22:05 lowkey could you link me to it?
2020-11-05 17:22:08 lowkey ohh
2020-11-05 17:22:12 acdw openssl req -new -x509 -newkey ec \
2020-11-05 17:22:12 acdw -pkeyopt ec_paramgen_curve:prime256v1 \
2020-11-05 17:22:12 acdw -days 1825 -nodes -out cert.pem -keyout key.pem
2020-11-05 17:22:14 makeworld https://tildegit.org/solderpunk/gemcert
2020-11-05 17:22:19 acdw oh that too lol
2020-11-05 17:22:20 jan6 lowkey: you can use a tilde irc bouncer to keep connected, or just use SASL log-in to the server, or such
2020-11-05 17:22:42 lowkey i am using SASL login
2020-11-05 17:22:45 jan6 huh
2020-11-05 17:22:48 lowkey dunno why it still does that
2020-11-05 17:22:49 makeworld Is that actually in the FAQ acdw?
2020-11-05 17:22:58 jan6 I thought that it would auto-boot off the old nick
2020-11-05 17:23:05 lowkey i thought so too
2020-11-05 17:23:10 makeworld No it's not hmm
2020-11-05 17:23:13 lowkey but it's happened to me one time too many to think so
2020-11-05 17:23:13 jan6 maybe automatically run a command to nickserv regain nick too, idk
2020-11-05 17:23:21 lowkey oh, i can do that?
2020-11-05 17:26:38 ▬▬▶ nytpu has joined #gemini
2020-11-05 17:27:46 jan6 depends on the client
2020-11-05 17:28:16 jan6 but I think a lot of the clients allow setting up commands to autorun
2020-11-05 17:28:43 ▬▬▶ alex11 has joined #gemini
2020-11-05 17:29:57 jan6 on weechat for example, to autorun commands on joinin g the "freenode" network, you put them in irc.server.freenode.command
2020-11-05 17:30:20 jan6 which you seem to use
2020-11-05 17:30:26 jan6 /fset is great
2020-11-05 17:32:43 lowkey oooh
2020-11-05 17:32:46 lowkey thanks a lot for this
2020-11-05 17:34:07 jan6 I'm lowkey awesome ;P
2020-11-05 17:34:14 jan6 all hail jan6
2020-11-05 17:34:31 lowkey :P
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2020-11-05 17:37:05 jan6 ;P
2020-11-05 17:37:12 jan6 more lowkeys
2020-11-05 17:37:12 jan6 lol
2020-11-05 17:37:26 jan6 ok, maybe you want to chat on gemini topics again
2020-11-05 17:38:03 lowkey_ so the term for a gemini site is gemini capsule?
2020-11-05 17:38:17 lowkey_ sigh, not again :(
2020-11-05 17:38:54 ew0k lowkey_: I believe that’s the term, yes
2020-11-05 17:39:02 khuxkm yeah that's the typical term
2020-11-05 17:39:13 lowkey has quit (Ping timeout: 120 seconds)
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2020-11-05 17:39:35 lowkey interesting
2020-11-05 17:39:38 acdw makeworld: not that i know of
2020-11-05 17:39:43 lowkey jan6: what were you saying earlier about a bouncer?
2020-11-05 17:40:04 acdw lowkey: you can /msg nickserv re somehting
2020-11-05 17:40:21 lowkey yeah, it's RECOVER
2020-11-05 17:40:24 acdw thats it!
2020-11-05 17:40:28 acdw lol
2020-11-05 17:40:29 khuxkm https://gist.github.com/fd55c75b3e40ead5a9313184fdf2c54d
2020-11-05 17:40:29 lowkey i have run it too many times already today :P
2020-11-05 17:40:34 lowkey could you link me to gemcert?
2020-11-05 17:40:43 acdw https://tildegit.org/solderpunk/gemcert
2020-11-05 17:40:47 khuxkm https://tildegit.org/solderpunk/gemcert
2020-11-05 17:40:54 khuxkm dang, acdw beat me to it
2020-11-05 17:40:56 lowkey the gemini faq page has a nice explainer on certificates but doesn't go into how to setup your own
2020-11-05 17:40:58 jan6 19:22 <makeworld> https://tildegit.org/solderpunk/gemcert
2020-11-05 17:40:59 jan6 lol
2020-11-05 17:41:03 lowkey hehe, thanks people!
2020-11-05 17:41:04 jan6 did you forget that one already
2020-11-05 17:41:06 acdw haha, let's do it a few more times
2020-11-05 17:41:17 jan6 or does your client not persist chat history?
2020-11-05 17:41:18 acdw yeah I scrolled up to makeworld's linke and copy pasted
2020-11-05 17:41:27 acdw jan6 did something fancier
2020-11-05 17:41:30 lowkey jan6: you mentioned something about using a bouncer from my tilde, right?
2020-11-05 17:41:41 lowkey i'd love that
2020-11-05 17:43:10 jan6 depends which tilde, but I think several have znc, and about all allow you to just run weechat in a shell session in a tmux or such terminal multiplexer, which you can use with ssh/mosh, or use that as a relay
2020-11-05 17:43:41 jan6 at least ~team has znc that much I know for certain, I think ~club also does, and possible that ~institute MIGHT have? idk
2020-11-05 17:43:55 jan6 you can search around
2020-11-05 17:44:10 jan6 envs also has so much stuff I wouldn't be surprised
2020-11-05 17:44:37 lowkey ah, i'm on team
2020-11-05 17:44:43 lowkey i'll see if i can figure this out
2020-11-05 17:45:11 jan6 https://znc.tilde.team/ and wiki should help, and you can always ask b€n
2020-11-05 17:45:17 jan6 #team too
2020-11-05 17:45:50 khuxkm I think ben needs to set up the ZNC account first
2020-11-05 17:48:22 lowkey it did say znc isn't available when i ran the command just now
2020-11-05 17:50:00 jan6 yes, I thnk too
2020-11-05 18:01:23 @ben username lowkey right?
2020-11-05 18:01:25 @ben i can add the znc acct
2020-11-05 18:02:03 @ben lowkey: try now, should work
2020-11-05 18:02:38 lowkey thank you!
2020-11-05 18:02:40 lowkey trying!
2020-11-05 18:03:10 lowkey um, i'm not sure how to go about it actually
2020-11-05 18:14:41 jan6 lol
2020-11-05 18:15:05 jan6 #team or #helpdesk are probably better than #gemini for this chat
2020-11-05 18:16:15 ▬▬▶ lowkey- has joined #gemini
2020-11-05 18:18:47 khuxkm what's this chat about? gemini? let's talk about gemini
2020-11-05 18:19:10 khuxkm I think I'm gonna start work on the CGI for Big Tiddy Gemini Server
2020-11-05 18:20:48 insep is there a link to big tiddy gemini server? can't find it on gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/software
2020-11-05 18:20:55 acdw GMNI
2020-11-05 18:21:07 acdw best name for a server btw khuxkm
2020-11-05 18:21:13 acdw edwin sounds dumb by comparison
2020-11-05 18:23:51 lowkey has quit (quit: WeeChat 2.9)
2020-11-05 18:25:47 khuxkm insep: https://github.com/MineRobber9000/btgs
2020-11-05 18:25:53 khuxkm it's still in alpha
2020-11-05 18:26:17 khuxkm acdw: but "edwin" actually means something
2020-11-05 18:27:35 khuxkm big tiddy gemini server was something dgy said in #meta and I decided to name my server project after it
2020-11-05 18:28:57 acdw i mean, btgs means something too then
2020-11-05 18:30:27 lowkey- has quit (quit: ZNC 1.8.2+deb1 - https://znc.in)
2020-11-05 18:30:56 insep khuxkm: so is the name the only reason why you started working on this
2020-11-05 18:31:18 insep acdw: i have my wip client called something similar :^)
2020-11-05 18:32:23 insep oh god pinging that way was a mistake
2020-11-05 18:32:27 ▬▬▶ lowkey- has joined #gemini
2020-11-05 18:33:42 acdw insep: what it be?
2020-11-05 18:33:47 acdw pinging what way?
2020-11-05 18:34:24 insep wait is it displayed properly on irc side?
2020-11-05 18:36:47 acdw yep
2020-11-05 18:37:05 insep oh, i guess it's a little bit of rng then
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2020-11-05 18:42:54 raiz guys guys, check this out: https://stellarbound.space/tmp/index.html
2020-11-05 18:43:00 raiz \o/ it works
2020-11-05 18:43:21 raiz gmi to html
2020-11-05 18:44:46 acdw i don't think i can get there from work :(
2020-11-05 18:46:00 __restrict My current plan for the logging bot: setup a litterbox instance, and create a gemini version of scooper to serve the logs from my gemini capsule. sounds good?
2020-11-05 18:46:02 ▬▬▶ fleeky has joined #gemini
2020-11-05 18:46:02 raiz I'll use this to provide access to my soon to be capsule from http
2020-11-05 18:46:33 khuxkm raiz: nice
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2020-11-05 19:15:55 jan6 pandoc gemini plugin when?
2020-11-05 19:16:11 aravk hmmmmm
2020-11-05 19:16:39 jan6 lul, raiz https://stellarbound.space/tmp/users/ is a link, but 404
2020-11-05 19:20:04 raiz I just converted one page to test the code
2020-11-05 19:20:05 raiz lol
2020-11-05 19:20:20 raiz this is a relative link from gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/
2020-11-05 19:20:36 raiz I fetched the index and coverted it
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2020-11-05 19:23:12 khuxkm jan6: isn't there already a pandoc gemini plugin?
2020-11-05 19:23:16 jan6 idk
2020-11-05 19:23:17 jan6 maybe
2020-11-05 19:23:26 jan6 I wouldn't imagine it to be hard to make one, anyway
2020-11-05 19:25:24 jan6 I'm really not up to date on all this geini jazz game
2020-11-05 19:26:33 ▬▬▶ lowkey has joined #gemini
2020-11-05 19:26:35 khuxkm https://github.com/kr1sp1n/gemini-pandoc-lua-filter
2020-11-05 19:27:47 jan6 specifically for html?
2020-11-05 19:29:07 khuxkm well presumably it'd work with markdown
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2020-11-05 19:29:54 jan6 paninidoc
2020-11-05 19:29:58 jan6 lol
2020-11-05 19:31:10 raiz Haha!
2020-11-05 19:33:02 jan6 paninidoc would be a great project, a rewrite of pandoc in a non-haskell language
2020-11-05 19:33:13 jan6 maybe pa-nim-i-doc ;p
2020-11-05 19:33:40 jan6 or pyndoc, the python pandoc ;P
2020-11-05 19:34:41 jan6 I guess that actually all you'd need is a markdown→gemini converter and then an anything→markdown converter, which is already a thing for most formats
2020-11-05 19:34:46 ★ jan6 likes textile
2020-11-05 19:35:13 nihilazo why rewrite pandoc in something other than haskell?
2020-11-05 19:35:20 jan6 because haskell
2020-11-05 19:35:21 nihilazo I mean, haskell pandoc works well
2020-11-05 19:35:26 jan6 sure
2020-11-05 19:35:28 nihilazo haskell is a language that is pretty suited to what pandoc is doing
2020-11-05 19:35:32 jan6 apache2 aso works well
2020-11-05 19:35:46 nihilazo I don't personally like haskell that much but it's better than like
2020-11-05 19:35:52 nihilazo idk what language you would rewrite it is
2020-11-05 19:35:54 nihilazo s/is/in
2020-11-05 19:35:55 jan6 lol
2020-11-05 19:36:07 nihilazo the main problem I have with haskell is that it's very complex
2020-11-05 19:36:27 jan6 plus all the dependecies it pulls in
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2020-11-05 19:36:45 jan6 but whatever
2020-11-05 19:36:47 nihilazo you can get a binary version of pandoc
2020-11-05 19:36:50 nihilazo that is statically linked
2020-11-05 19:36:50 jan6 sure
2020-11-05 19:36:52 nihilazo no deps
2020-11-05 19:37:19 jan6 if you bother to hunt it down on each update
2020-11-05 19:37:33 nihilazo in arch there is pandoc-bin in AUR
2020-11-05 19:38:55 jan6 just found it
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2020-11-05 19:45:52 nixo I just realized that really few details are given about quotes. Is it ">[whitespace]content"? Should I keep whitespaces between > and content?
2020-11-05 19:46:29 nixo is an empty quote valid? ">"
2020-11-05 19:46:32 khuxkm I don't think it matters?
2020-11-05 19:46:37 ★ khuxkm reread spec
2020-11-05 19:47:23 khuxkm "Lines beginning with ">" are quote lines."
2020-11-05 19:47:37 khuxkm that implies that whitespace isn't required
2020-11-05 19:47:52 khuxkm I'd still *keep* the whitespace but you don't /need/ it
2020-11-05 19:48:29 jan6 >it just looks better
2020-11-05 19:48:32 jan6 > with spaces
2020-11-05 19:50:11 nixo Thanks
2020-11-05 20:00:37 ew0k I think an empty quote *is* valid. It just doesn’t make sense
2020-11-05 20:01:40 ew0k Lots of reactions to my post about POST :) I’ve started collating and summarizing for a part 2, but I won’t be able to finish that today
2020-11-05 20:10:05 aravk ew0k: I've not read it yet, can you pass a link?
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2020-11-05 20:36:17 raiz anything after the ">" is part of the quote
2020-11-05 20:36:27 raiz even whitespace
2020-11-05 20:37:19 raiz nixo: look at 5.5.2 ... it states explicit "* ", which means whitespace is required
2020-11-05 20:37:38 raiz while in 5.5.3 it states explicit ">" which means absolutely no whitespace
2020-11-05 20:38:09 raiz I complained a lot about this in the manpage
2020-11-05 20:38:11 nixo raiz: Yeah but it would be strange to see a quote starting with a space
2020-11-05 20:39:15 raiz others suggested I contribute by rewriting the spec paper in a more refined and explanatory way
2020-11-05 20:39:37 raiz nixo: I guess that's on them for writing incorrect document
2020-11-05 20:39:48 raiz what if my quote starts with space?
2020-11-05 20:40:19 raiz also, what do you mean by space? is it skipping all whitespace and tabs till text is reached or just on whitespace character?
2020-11-05 20:40:28 raiz does a single tab count as whitespace?
2020-11-05 20:40:49 raiz until the spec says otherwise, I'd stick with not handling whitespaces after >
2020-11-05 20:41:16 nixo whitespace should I think means "\s", since it's used in the link example, which include "\s\t"
2020-11-05 20:41:40 raiz 5.4.2 is more elaborative
2020-11-05 20:42:06 raiz that's what I was whining about, 5.5.2 and 5.5.3 aren't written in the same format as 5.4.2
2020-11-05 20:42:25 raiz because as I was told, they were included in the spec later
2020-11-05 20:43:03 nixo raiz: yeah, my point is the same. They should be defined "better" (more clearly) to prevent random behaviour from clients
2020-11-05 20:43:47 aravk the issue is that there isn't a standard for this
2020-11-05 20:43:56 aravk some do "> " some do ">"
2020-11-05 20:44:14 raiz "> " != ">"
2020-11-05 20:45:07 aravk ik
2020-11-05 20:45:28 aravk you need to intellignetly identify whether a quote is a ">" or a "> "
2020-11-05 20:45:33 aravk that's difficult
2020-11-05 20:45:36 raiz I went through the same hell of changing the behavior of my implementation so often because everytime someone tells me to do it like X or do it like Y, until someone in the mailing list reassured my initial assumption that ">" is literal ">" only, with no whitespace whatsever
2020-11-05 20:45:43 aravk you can't specify either one only because people use both
2020-11-05 20:46:44 nixo raiz: but on "dumbs" clients (where advanced line types are not distinguished) "> quote" looks better than ">quote". So I'd rather have "> " just like "* ", followed by the quote. So a quote that starts with a space should be "> "
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2020-11-05 20:47:16 raiz me too, but I'm not going to violate the spec
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2020-11-05 20:47:54 raiz it is what it is, you can propose change in the mailing list, maybe this time people actually agree on how it should be handled
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2020-11-05 20:48:46 raiz for the sake of consistency, I'd like all line initializers in gemtext to allow any amount whitespace before the actual text
2020-11-05 20:49:01 aravk but then what if there is some whitespace that is part of the quote
2020-11-05 20:49:26 raiz oh right
2020-11-05 20:49:34 aravk e.g. > code where quoting e.g. markdown
2020-11-05 20:49:35 raiz now ">" makes more sense
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2020-11-05 20:50:36 raiz aravk: now you've convinced me more that ">" shuld stay ">" by standard
2020-11-05 20:51:23 aravk this kind of flip/flop happens all the time for debatable features
2020-11-05 20:51:56 aravk also even if semantically there is additional whitespace being included in the quote it won't matter because it's only for highlighting
2020-11-05 20:53:27 raiz after I finish working on my gemini stuff, I think I'm gonna rewrite the spec paper to be more precise and clean and answer the questions many newcomers have
2020-11-05 20:54:25 aravk the questions *you think* many newcomers have
2020-11-05 20:54:32 aravk but yes, definitely discuss them on the ML
2020-11-05 20:54:47 raiz it is not only me who had this questions, no?
2020-11-05 20:54:59 aravk lots of discussions like these come up on the ML
2020-11-05 20:55:12 aravk you're right, no one has collected and condensed them into a rationale section for the psec
2020-11-05 20:55:13 raiz exactly
2020-11-05 20:55:29 aravk idk what solderpunk's goals are with that - ask on the ML
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2020-11-05 20:56:11 aravk there should definitely be a rationale section for different features, to give an idea of how much thinking went into the decisions in the spec
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2020-11-05 20:57:46 aravk I love reading the rationals given in the riscv isa spec for example
2020-11-05 20:57:54 aravk gives you a lot of perspective
2020-11-05 21:01:41 ew0k aravk: gemini://tilde.team/~ew0k/gemini-and-post.gmi
2020-11-05 21:02:36 aravk cool, thanks ew0k
2020-11-05 21:04:33 ew0k Yw :)
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2020-11-05 22:26:27 __restrict This is a test. Apologies for the spam...
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2020-11-05 22:28:09 boringcactus ew0k: gemini://boringcactus.com:6969/ i threw together a very half-assed example of what content authoring over Gemini-as-it-currently-exists might look like
2020-11-05 22:28:31 boringcactus https://git.sr.ht/~boringcactus/gemini-authoring-example only works with jetforce's cgi implementation (afaik)
2020-11-05 22:31:52 nihilazo I get an error about client certs
2020-11-05 22:31:57 __restrict same
2020-11-05 22:32:01 boringcactus hm
2020-11-05 22:32:13 __restrict says I need a client cert to continue
2020-11-05 22:32:26 boringcactus i mean, yeah, it wants one to use as a session identifier
2020-11-05 22:32:38 boringcactus if your client will let you make a temporary cert that should work
2020-11-05 22:32:51 __restrict which client let's you do that?
2020-11-05 22:33:20 boringcactus Kristall does that easily, Lagrange does it but still makes you fill out all the cert details,
2020-11-05 22:33:27 boringcactus idk which others support what
2020-11-05 22:33:33 __restrict hm
2020-11-05 22:34:05 boringcactus shame like half the clients don't actually handle client certs very elegantly
2020-11-05 22:34:13 boringcactus as far as i can tell
2020-11-05 22:34:22 __restrict My client doesn't... and there's no command-line flag to use one either
2020-11-05 22:34:37 boringcactus s/ very elegantly// then i guess
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2020-11-05 22:53:11 boringcactus looks like Amfora, AV-98, Castor, and tinmop are the only other clients (listed on the clients page) which implement client certs (as far as i can tell)
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2020-11-05 22:59:54 __restrict wait, amfora does? I don't recall seeing a config option
2020-11-05 23:01:51 boringcactus the readme has client certs checked off
2020-11-05 23:02:03 boringcactus but not full UX within the client
2020-11-05 23:02:11 __restrict hm
2020-11-05 23:02:41 boringcactus https://github.com/makeworld-the-better-one/amfora/blob/master/client/client.go#L16
2020-11-05 23:04:26 __restrict makeworld: I'm confused. amfora seems to have support for client certs but there doesn't exist any config options or commandline flags to enable it?
2020-11-05 23:06:41 makeworld There are config options, just added in v1.6.0
2020-11-05 23:06:42 makeworld https://github.com/makeworld-the-better-one/amfora/blob/445be96e467a959aff6dc8aaf75ca8751ce6f2d7/default-config.toml#L69-L80
2020-11-05 23:06:48 makeworld __restrict boringcactus
2020-11-05 23:07:05 makeworld So no UX yet, but you can create them externally and add them by editing the config
2020-11-05 23:07:17 boringcactus ahh there that is
2020-11-05 23:07:55 makeworld After upgrading, you can either add the sections yourself, or delete your config and the new default one will be written for you
2020-11-05 23:08:42 __restrict ooh. Thanks.
2020-11-05 23:08:43 jcowan You need to fill out at least one detail for Lagrange. I just put my name in Common Name. Otherwise such a cert would be literally a blank check.
2020-11-05 23:14:12 __restrict Oh, wait. How do I generate a client cert? I think I've been trying to use a private key instead of a cert all along
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2020-11-06 00:18:18 bie makeworld: caching (large) images, even for a few minutes, would break my gemini site
2020-11-06 00:19:37 bie i have a cgi script that responds with a random photo
2020-11-06 00:20:41 bie a much better way to handle this kind of thing would be to have one of the 2x response codes mean "this is a success and the response body can be cached"
2020-11-06 00:26:42 makeworld Amfora doesn't do images anyway. And in the case of a CGI script, I would expect users to be reloading on their own
2020-11-06 00:26:49 makeworld But yeah, having a status code for that would be nice
2020-11-06 00:27:31 makeworld __restrict: To generate a private cert you can just use an openssl cert generation command, it will result in a cert file and a key file. See the Amfora README for an example command.
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2020-11-06 03:23:17 khuxkm https://gist.github.com/MineRobber9000/fd55c75b3e40ead5a9313184fdf2c54d changed my gemtext nano syntax highlighter to use Amfora's default colorscheme :)
2020-11-06 03:24:14 khuxkm now (for the most part) opening a gemtext file in Amphora and in nano (with my highlighter) will look the same (except list items are yellow and quotes are darker green)
2020-11-06 03:30:07 khuxkm https://ttm.sh/dFt.png here's a side-by-side comparison
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2020-11-06 03:33:22 makeworld Haha nice!
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2020-11-06 03:58:10 khuxkm >a much better way to handle this kind of thing would be to have one of the 2x response codes mean "this is a success and the response body can be cached"
2020-11-06 03:58:31 khuxkm i would argue the better avenue would be a 2x code for "this is a success and don't cache this"
2020-11-06 03:58:50 khuxkm the bulk of the content on gemini space is text, which can (and probably should) be cached
2020-11-06 03:59:19 khuxkm but, for example, a script that returns a random image, or a random name, etc. shouldn't be cached
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2020-11-06 04:18:50 makeworld ^^
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2020-11-06 04:51:13 khuxkm in other news I'm updating my plaintext copies of my fanfiction (some of my fanfiction is available at gemini://tilde.team/~khuxkm/writing)
2020-11-06 04:56:44 bie khuxkm: absolutely nothing in the spec suggests that
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2020-11-06 05:01:07 bie and you can't tell what's a script and what's not
2020-11-06 05:01:43 bie even assuming the bulk of the content is text, how do you separate between dynamically updated text (a list of gemlog posts) and a static file?
2020-11-06 05:02:31 bie caching increases complexity which is why i think the "feel free to cache this" response status should be the exceptionn
2020-11-06 05:09:39 khuxkm well most people don't use long caches
2020-11-06 05:09:46 khuxkm amfora caches to the end of the session I believe
2020-11-06 05:10:00 khuxkm this isn't like the web where you cache things for, like, weeks at a time
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2020-11-06 05:10:40 khuxkm basically, if you want to cache things, you can cache things, which is why I feel it's more important to be able to say "do not under any circumstances cache this response"
2020-11-06 05:11:36 khuxkm nothing would stop you from making your gemlog post list return, say, `22 text/gemini` (`22` in this case being the 2x "SUCCESS - DO NOT CACHE")
2020-11-06 05:12:14 khuxkm a static file can probably be cached, and a dynamically updated text (in most servers) has the ability to return a non-20 status code
2020-11-06 05:12:19 low-key I'm trying to run gmnisrv for the first time and I get gmnisrv: src/tls.c:68: tls_host_gencert: Assertion `pf' failed
2020-11-06 05:12:52 bie khuxkm: the point is that you can't tell what's static and what's not
2020-11-06 05:13:44 khuxkm I fail to see how that invalidates my point
2020-11-06 05:14:08 khuxkm the stuff that is very obviously dynamic (i.e; scripts) can return a non-20 status code
2020-11-06 05:14:34 bie sure, that's a *possibility*, but it would break current sites
2020-11-06 05:14:48 khuxkm even if "static" updated files that "shouldn't" be cached end up cached, nobody's making caches last weeks
2020-11-06 05:14:59 khuxkm how would it break current sites?
2020-11-06 05:15:10 bie like the random photo thing
2020-11-06 05:15:19 bie sure i could make it return a 22, but amfora would still cache it for now
2020-11-06 05:15:33 bie and i really don't think that's supported by the spec
2020-11-06 05:15:46 login do you pronounce it jemini or game-ini?
2020-11-06 05:15:55 khuxkm I'm just using 22 as a placeholder example, I'm not saying to actually return a 22 code
2020-11-06 05:16:35 khuxkm but in this hypothetical universe where 22 is defined as SUCCESS - DO NOT CACHE in the actual spec, it's assumed that clients would keep up
2020-11-06 05:16:58 khuxkm and amfora in this hypothetical universe wouldn't cache your 22 response
2020-11-06 05:17:14 login just put some text on the page saying "don't cache this"
2020-11-06 05:17:19 bie i totally get that, but the point of the extended status codes is to enable more complex client behavior
2020-11-06 05:17:29 login and have a way for clients to invalidate the cache by pressing shift+refresh
2020-11-06 05:17:29 bie and i think "not caching anything at all" is the reasonable default here
2020-11-06 05:17:36 bie caching is the advanced behavior
2020-11-06 05:17:49 login will there be an etag?
2020-11-06 05:18:08 bie i can't put text on the page, login, it's image data
2020-11-06 05:18:34 login oh, i see
2020-11-06 05:20:42 low-key Am I just missing some dependency?
2020-11-06 05:20:50 low-key I already have my certs in place
2020-11-06 05:23:10 nytpu it looks like it may be a permission error
2020-11-06 05:23:17 low-key Oh
2020-11-06 05:23:23 nytpu looking at the code: https://git.sr.ht/~sircmpwn/gmnisrv/tree/master/src/tls.c#L68
2020-11-06 05:23:24 low-key For my certs?
2020-11-06 05:23:50 nytpu line 68 is where the error is, and it's asserting that it can open a file
2020-11-06 05:24:01 bie oh, and it's trying to open it for writing
2020-11-06 05:24:12 nytpu so the file isn't able to be opened for some reason
2020-11-06 05:24:18 bie it's trying to create a new certificate
2020-11-06 05:24:25 low-key You were right!
2020-11-06 05:24:29 low-key Permission error it was!
2020-11-06 05:24:37 low-key Running gmnisrv with sudo fixed it.
2020-11-06 05:24:40 login don't give it write permission, the certificate might replace it!
2020-11-06 05:24:49 login *certificate might get overwritten
2020-11-06 05:25:06 low-key Figure I should have moved it to some directory my user can write in instead of putting it in /var/lib
2020-11-06 05:25:35 login why does it need to write to the file?
2020-11-06 05:25:39 nytpu do you want it to generate certs for you? that's what that function is trying to do it looks like
2020-11-06 05:26:07 nytpu i'd make sure that your configuration is write, it might be looking in the wrong spot so it decides to generate them for you
2020-11-06 05:26:18 nytpu s/write/right/
2020-11-06 05:26:18 low-key I already generated my certs using gemcert
2020-11-06 05:26:32 low-key I put it exactly where my config is looking for it
2020-11-06 05:26:36 low-key I just used the example config
2020-11-06 05:29:03 nytpu hmm
2020-11-06 05:29:41 nytpu it looks like it calls `tls_host_gencert` in `tls_host_init` if it can't open any of the requisite files
2020-11-06 05:29:44 low-key Trying to access my site gives me connection closed by peer
2020-11-06 05:29:58 low-key Ohh
2020-11-06 05:30:12 nytpu so it can't read either the key or the cert
2020-11-06 05:30:29 nytpu and the connection closed by peer *sounds* like a tls error
2020-11-06 05:30:33 low-key But I do have it up and running now
2020-11-06 05:30:39 low-key It said gmnisrv started
2020-11-06 05:31:02 low-key When I try accessing the site, the server shows a SSL accept error
2020-11-06 05:31:31 nytpu what browser are you using?
2020-11-06 05:31:54 low-key Ariane
2020-11-06 05:31:57 low-key On Android
2020-11-06 05:32:10 low-key Could you see if you can view it? It's gemini://low-key.me
2020-11-06 05:32:20 nytpu i was just about to ask if you minded me testing it
2020-11-06 05:32:51 low-key I just checked the directory and it created a new cert and key instead of simply using the one I had put in there.
2020-11-06 05:33:05 nytpu do you have tcp port 1965 open on your firewall?
2020-11-06 05:33:36 nytpu i'm getting connection refused on both bombadillo on my vps and on kristall on my desktop
2020-11-06 05:33:59 nytpu so it looks like i'm not even getting to gmnisrv at all
2020-11-06 05:34:10 low-key I do have it open
2020-11-06 05:34:12 low-key Let me confirm
2020-11-06 05:34:24 low-key Yup, it's open
2020-11-06 05:34:54 low-key SSL accept error: error:1417A0C1:SSL routines:tls_post_process_client_hello:no shared cipher
2020-11-06 05:35:01 low-key This is what the server is throwing now
2020-11-06 05:35:31 low-key In my gmnisrv.ini, should the localhost bit be changed to my actual domain?
2020-11-06 05:35:53 ew0k I tried to access from rocketeer too
2020-11-06 05:36:09 nytpu try that, it might not be liking being bound to localhost if it's using sni
2020-11-06 05:36:47 bie low-key: yes, should definitely be changed
2020-11-06 05:36:59 nytpu are you bound to localhost or 0.0.0.0? sometimes on other software localhost doesn't work but 0.0.0.0 does for some reason
2020-11-06 05:37:11 low-key Can I share my config here?
2020-11-06 05:37:13 nytpu but that's usually when using nginx to reverse-proxy
2020-11-06 05:37:21 nytpu and yeah it'd be nice to see the whole config
2020-11-06 05:38:04 low-key Space-separated list of hosts
2020-11-06 05:38:06 low-key listen=0.0.0.0:1965 [::]:1965
2020-11-06 05:38:08 low-key [:tls]
2020-11-06 05:38:10 low-key # Path to store certificates on disk
2020-11-06 05:38:12 low-key store=/var/lib/gemini/certs
2020-11-06 05:38:14 low-key # Optional details for new certificates organization=low-key
2020-11-06 05:38:16 low-key [localhost]
2020-11-06 05:38:18 low-key root=/home/loki/low-key.me/gemini
2020-11-06 05:38:20 low-key This is it.
2020-11-06 05:39:36 nytpu yeah, the first thing i'd change would be `listen=0.0.0.0:1965...` to `listen=low-key.me:1965`
2020-11-06 05:40:19 bie low-key: it was up for a second lol
2020-11-06 05:40:21 low-key 🙈🙈🙈
2020-11-06 05:40:25 nytpu oh yeah definitely change `[localhost]` to `[low-key.me]` too
2020-11-06 05:40:33 low-key Okay, so that should do it?
2020-11-06 05:40:52 nytpu yeah, hopefully
2020-11-06 05:41:12 low-key How should the ipv6 part of it look?
2020-11-06 05:41:19 low-key Do I just leave it as is?
2020-11-06 05:41:28 nytpu i'd remove it
2020-11-06 05:41:36 low-key I take it that's what the [::] bit is.
2020-11-06 05:41:38 low-key Oh
2020-11-06 05:42:35 nytpu it probably will bind to both anyways if you're using a domain
2020-11-06 05:43:08 low-key Gmnisrv won't start now
2020-11-06 05:43:14 low-key Says invalid address specification
2020-11-06 05:43:39 nytpu try changing listen back to what it was before then
2020-11-06 05:43:49 nytpu `listen=0.0.0.0:1965 [::]:1965`
2020-11-06 05:45:46 low-key Thank you people!
2020-11-06 05:45:48 low-key That worked!
2020-11-06 05:45:53 low-key I have my own capsule now!
2020-11-06 05:45:57 low-key 🥳
2020-11-06 05:45:57 nytpu hey i can get to it!
2020-11-06 05:45:59 nytpu congrats!
2020-11-06 05:46:01 bie low-key: congrats :D
2020-11-06 05:46:05 low-key Thank you so, so much!
2020-11-06 05:46:13 low-key :D
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2020-11-06 06:34:25 ew0k low-key: well done! :D
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2020-11-06 07:50:23 bie hm, yeah i'll give it some time, but if the consensus in the gemini community is that caching responses is ok i'm probably out
2020-11-06 07:51:28 bie what makes the protocol interesting to me is that it's *not* just a file transfer protocol
2020-11-06 07:51:32 bie while still remaining minimalistic
2020-11-06 07:52:19 bie if clients start assuming that an image/jpeg response or a text/gemini response can be cached because it's "probably a static file" or whatever then the fun stuff i want to make is just going to break
2020-11-06 08:01:31 jan6 maybe someday I will have enough shell scripts to write an actual gemin client and some sort of UI, for now I have a start of a menu system, kinda, it's of the "rolling cylinder" type, https://github.com/Jan69/stuff/blob/main/sh/sel/sel.sh
2020-11-06 08:02:17 jan6 tbh all I'd need to do is wire together gemini_get and get the links on the page, and put them in this menu, and it'd be a basic client
2020-11-06 08:02:18 jan6 hmm
2020-11-06 08:04:43 khuxkm ugh
2020-11-06 08:04:51 khuxkm why is Python so annoying
2020-11-06 08:08:39 jan6 bc py-ton-o-annoyances
2020-11-06 08:08:42 ★ jan6 off
2020-11-06 08:10:26 khuxkm so the main issue is trying to get Python to accept a peer cert that ISN'T signed by a CA
2020-11-06 08:11:47 bie oh wow
2020-11-06 08:12:40 khuxkm for ssl.CERT_OPTIONAL:
2020-11-06 08:12:41 khuxkm >In server mode, a client certificate request is sent to the client. The client may either ignore the request or send a certificate in order perform TLS client cert authentication. If the client chooses to send a certificate, it is verified. Any verification error immediately aborts the TLS handshake.
2020-11-06 08:13:07 khuxkm and guess what happens when you try to verify the self-signed certificate?
2020-11-06 08:14:40 khuxkm the best part is that there's no way around it unless I can somehow short-circuit the CA check?
2020-11-06 08:15:26 khuxkm because if I choose CERT_NONE, the client just isn't asked for a cert, and CERT_REQUIRED also, unsurprisingly, wants to verify the cert
2020-11-06 08:16:18 bie when i did this with libressl i had to set tls_config_verify_client_optional AND tls_config_insecure_noverifycert
2020-11-06 08:16:50 bie i'm guessing the python library wraps openssl/libressl?
2020-11-06 08:17:26 khuxkm I think so?
2020-11-06 08:17:54 khuxkm I don't see a "noverifycert" or "verify_client_optional" choice
2020-11-06 08:20:11 bie yeah, i'm looking at the docs now.. that's weird
2020-11-06 08:20:51 khuxkm but yeah I don't see a way around it
2020-11-06 08:21:06 khuxkm https://github.com/python/cpython/blob/master/Modules/_ssl.c#L3050 this is the function that gets called when you set the verify mode
2020-11-06 08:22:43 khuxkm maybe there could be some ctypes shenanigans?
2020-11-06 08:23:24 khuxkm but I doubt it
2020-11-06 08:23:58 bie that's annoying, yeahhhh
2020-11-06 08:24:00 khuxkm basically, it would entail somehow injecting a verification function that just blindly accepted the cert it was given
2020-11-06 08:26:23 khuxkm the worst part is that you can, in fact, get the client to not verify the server, but not the other way around
2020-11-06 08:26:26 khuxkm that's so dumb
2020-11-06 08:26:48 bie lol yeah
2020-11-06 08:27:27 khuxkm now the question: do I go bitch in freenode/#python about it
2020-11-06 08:27:33 khuxkm ...where do I even go to bitch about it?
2020-11-06 08:27:39 khuxkm is it openssl's fault?
2020-11-06 08:27:45 khuxkm I don't think it's openssl's fault
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2020-11-06 08:27:49 bie i think it's the python library
2020-11-06 08:28:23 bie which i guess is like... part of the standard library...?
2020-11-06 08:29:16 khuxkm yeah this is part of the stdlib
2020-11-06 08:31:14 khuxkm I mean, I'd prefer not to have to fork the ssl library out of python stdlib just for this one gemini server project
2020-11-06 08:31:17 khuxkm seems a little overkill
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2020-11-06 12:56:30 ew0k We *just* had a dicussion regarding response size on the ML, and most agreed that it doesn't have a place in the response header. And now Twin, a new gemini server, is announced that includes response size in the header by default... ?
2020-11-06 12:56:49 ew0k disregard my question mark. I don't know why I keep adding that to statements.
2020-11-06 12:56:57 ew0k I wonder *how* it's included
2020-11-06 13:00:37 djph ew0k: by not following the specs? IDK :D
2020-11-06 13:02:29 ew0k lol
2020-11-06 13:02:43 ew0k I meant, "what does the header look like?"
2020-11-06 13:02:51 djph oh, no idea
2020-11-06 13:03:04 djph i'm barely able to keep tabs on half of what you lot talk about
2020-11-06 13:04:11 nixo ew0k: here it is https://gitlab.com/tslocum/twins/-/blob/master/serve_file.go#L127
2020-11-06 13:04:20 nixo "%s; size=%d", mimeType, size
2020-11-06 13:04:37 ew0k nixo: ty!
2020-11-06 13:05:08 nixo size is the result of stat, so I guess it's in bytes
2020-11-06 13:05:28 raiz "twins includes the response body size in the media type header by default" <-- media type == MIME?
2020-11-06 13:07:19 ew0k CommunistWolf: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/global-opinions/a-spreadsheet-of-those-in-hell-how-china-corralled-uighurs-into-concentration-camps/2020/02/28/4daeca4a-58c8-11ea-ab68-101ecfec2532_story.html
2020-11-06 13:07:52 raiz oh please no, not bad news, I just woke up
2020-11-06 13:07:55 ew0k Oh, sorry, wrong channel
2020-11-06 13:07:59 raiz lol
2020-11-06 13:08:20 ew0k We were talking about caching and response size here XD
2020-11-06 13:09:18 tane where can I find a rational for gemtext not including any notion of *emphasis*? Is there any place documenting decisions/arguments other than the mailing list?
2020-11-06 13:14:58 nixo tane: yes, it's in the specs: The format is line-oriented, and a satisfactory rendering can be achieved with a single pass of a document, processing each line independently.
2020-11-06 13:15:26 nixo no wrong line
2020-11-06 13:17:05 nixo for links it's " There is no need for clients to scan each line character-by-character, testing for the presence of some special link syntax.". I guess it applies to emphasis, too
2020-11-06 13:18:06 nixo when you add emphasis, you need a way to escape it. You have cases in which its rendering depends on implementation: (like ***). I think it's just to keep it easy
2020-11-06 13:19:11 tane yeah, makes sense, thanks
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2020-11-06 13:53:56 bie you can still do emphasis and do a single pass, though
2020-11-06 13:54:12 bie not saying it would be necessary, of course
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2020-11-06 14:00:46 nixo bie: assuming that it's impossible to put emphasis on a single *, or requiring an escape character
2020-11-06 14:01:19 acdw did yall see this: https://oldvcr.blogspot.com/2020/11/a-gopher-view-of-gemini.html ?
2020-11-06 14:01:53 nixo gopher view of gemini, hosted on http :D
2020-11-06 14:02:32 acdw lol
2020-11-06 14:02:37 acdw it's a good article tho!
2020-11-06 14:03:51 bie nixo: kind of depends on how you're defining single pass, too, i guess
2020-11-06 14:04:00 bie i was thinking line by line, but one line in the buffer at a time
2020-11-06 14:04:16 bie if it's character by character then it gets a bit more difficult
2020-11-06 14:04:44 felix Cameron Kaiser is awesome.
2020-11-06 14:08:31 felix Folks, look. I have a question. Been quietly lurking lately.
2020-11-06 14:08:49 felix Can't help but notice how much of what people want boils down to,
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2020-11-06 14:09:07 felix adding about 80% of HTTP and HTML 1.0 back to Gemini.
2020-11-06 14:09:41 felix Maybe, just maybe, that stuff was actually well thought out?
2020-11-06 14:09:59 CommunistWolf something can be well-thought-out for goal X, but poorly thought out for goal Y
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2020-11-06 14:10:54 felix And who decides what the goal of Gemini is?
2020-11-06 14:11:12 felix Because again, a lot people seem to very much want all that stuff added in.
2020-11-06 14:11:22 CommunistWolf solderpunk, more or less
2020-11-06 14:11:23 felix of*
2020-11-06 14:11:37 bie i'm good with gemini just the way it is
2020-11-06 14:11:57 felix Indeed? So all the people who use Gemini now don't have a say?
2020-11-06 14:12:03 bie of course they do
2020-11-06 14:12:10 CommunistWolf a say, yes. a decision, no
2020-11-06 14:12:10 bie but when they take it in a direction i don't like, i'm out
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2020-11-06 14:12:21 bie or i guess
2020-11-06 14:12:22 felix bie: if you're personally fine with it, that's fair.
2020-11-06 14:12:27 CommunistWolf they can always create a gemini++ or a gemini-- of course
2020-11-06 14:12:37 raiz the annoyance is that mailing list is 80% feature proposals
2020-11-06 14:12:41 bie when solderpunk starts taking it in a direction i don't like
2020-11-06 14:12:43 CommunistWolf but it doe srather seem that gemini is entirely controlled by solderpunk
2020-11-06 14:12:54 bie raiz: i feel kind of bad about my first post being a "feature proposal"
2020-11-06 14:12:56 raiz also, I'm with bie on this, once it gets out of hand, I'll pack and leave
2020-11-06 14:12:57 felix If the web had worked like that, we'd have about a million webs now, all incompatible.
2020-11-06 14:13:06 CommunistWolf it did work like that
2020-11-06 14:13:08 bie even though the only reason i did it was that clients are adding a feature i don't like lol
2020-11-06 14:13:32 CommunistWolf http and html evolved through many, many incompatible extensions that were adopted or abandoned over time
2020-11-06 14:13:43 raiz I'm absolutely against adding protocol mechanism for caching less than 1kb text
2020-11-06 14:14:01 bie raiz: i'm against caching more than that, too
2020-11-06 14:14:28 bie i'd like to use gemini for serving generated images, and when clients just serve the same thing again and again, that's no fun
2020-11-06 14:14:29 raiz especially using response codes, how does one determine this file is cachable or not? do we write response codes in gemtext now?
2020-11-06 14:15:23 raiz also, what happens if gemini was used for streaming? does the browser cache all the stream?
2020-11-06 14:15:49 raiz what if the browser doesn't understand such response codes as they're not mandatory
2020-11-06 14:16:08 raiz the bare minimum a browser can do is read the first digit of responses
2020-11-06 14:17:03 acdw caching--
2020-11-06 14:17:06 acdw who needs caching
2020-11-06 14:17:17 acdw tho... energy usage
2020-11-06 14:17:19 acdw hm
2020-11-06 14:17:34 raiz <1kb isn't much
2020-11-06 14:18:30 bie i'm very very very skeptical when it comes to energy usage arguments
2020-11-06 14:19:24 bie especially when it comes to niche protocols like gemini
2020-11-06 14:19:35 acdw fair enough, sort of like htose blog posts "saving the planet by using system fonts"
2020-11-06 14:19:41 acdw like,,,,,, that's Not a Thing
2020-11-06 14:19:49 bie yeah, exactly
2020-11-06 14:20:20 bie at netflix/google/big datacenter scale it's kind of an issue, but yeahhh
2020-11-06 14:21:17 acdw they don't give a shit
2020-11-06 14:23:29 bie true
2020-11-06 14:33:39 low-key If gemini's goals are well defined, can't it just be declared feature complete?
2020-11-06 14:33:51 acdw imo yes
2020-11-06 14:34:01 acdw as far as i'm concerned it is
2020-11-06 14:34:02 low-key Instead of this constant tension.
2020-11-06 14:34:08 low-key Yeah, I came in thinking it was.
2020-11-06 14:34:21 low-key And it feels feature complete too, at least to my understanding of what it is.
2020-11-06 14:34:21 acdw i think there was also a mailing list item to that effect
2020-11-06 14:34:33 acdw honestly, should be on the faq/front page of the projet
2020-11-06 14:35:50 low-key I don't think I'd want to be a part of this too if it just means to keep being extended
2020-11-06 14:36:11 low-key The FAQ actually stresses that it's not meant to be extensible
2020-11-06 14:36:34 low-key I think the only proposal I liked was the emoji favicons one :P
2020-11-06 14:37:45 acdw haha yes
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2020-11-06 14:48:14 bie oh oh i like emoji favicons lol
2020-11-06 14:48:23 low-key :D
2020-11-06 14:49:26 bie low-key: i tried the links on your geminispace! not found!!!!
2020-11-06 14:49:33 bie 🙀
2020-11-06 14:49:37 tane so, a request contains an URL of up to 1024 bytes, a response status code 1x implies INPUT that needs to be appended to the URL on the next request. Doesn't this limit user input relative to the size of the base URL?
2020-11-06 14:49:52 bie tane: yea
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2020-11-06 14:50:54 nytpu hopefully you don't have a 1000 byte url or you aren't expecting a 1000 byte input
2020-11-06 14:51:30 tane doesn't matter much, it's arbitrary anyway
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2020-11-06 14:52:17 low-key bie: that's just the skeleton of the site
2020-11-06 14:52:36 low-key I'll be slowly posting stuff in the days to come
2020-11-06 14:52:45 bie 👍👍👍
2020-11-06 14:52:47 low-key This was just me wanting to figure out how to write gemtext
2020-11-06 14:52:56 low-key And see it in action
2020-11-06 14:53:28 bie so does anyone else have gemini sites to share~?
2020-11-06 14:53:52 bie i've got my "personal" one at gemini://blekksprut.net and record label at gemini://higeki.jp
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2020-11-06 15:08:11 bie lol i just realized my server isn't responding to ipv4
2020-11-06 15:11:22 felix I was wondering.
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2020-11-06 15:13:38 acdw bie: gemini://gem.acdw.net
2020-11-06 15:14:09 bie acdw: 🙏
2020-11-06 15:14:32 bie i'll take a look once i figure out how to do ipv4 (usually it's ipv6 causing trouble)
2020-11-06 15:14:50 acdw i can't access yours :/
2020-11-06 15:14:58 acdw maybe b/c work...let me try through portal.mozz.us
2020-11-06 15:15:12 acdw I get a connection error
2020-11-06 15:15:22 bie pretty sure it's the ipv4/ipv6 thing
2020-11-06 15:15:43 acdw oh, could be
2020-11-06 15:15:54 bie on linux you can listen on both with an AF_INET6 socket, but i'm on openbsd
2020-11-06 15:16:00 bie "OpenBSD does not route IPv4 traffic to an AF_INET6 socket, for security reasons. If both IPv4 and IPv6 traffic need to be accepted, listen on two sockets."
2020-11-06 15:20:23 acdw oh wow
2020-11-06 15:20:25 acdw oof
2020-11-06 15:26:29 ddevault linux is pretty stupid here imo
2020-11-06 15:26:31 ddevault openbsd is right
2020-11-06 15:27:03 bie no doubt, i just didn't realize until just now
2020-11-06 15:27:05 ddevault setsockopt(sockfd, IPPROTO_IPV6, IPV6_ONLY, &i, sizeof(i)) where i is an int equal to 1
2020-11-06 15:27:07 ddevault to fix linux
2020-11-06 15:29:04 acdw can youlisten on 2 sockets on 1 port?
2020-11-06 15:29:09 bie yup
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2020-11-06 15:29:32 acdw oh neat, then yes
2020-11-06 15:29:35 acdw that does sound better
2020-11-06 15:29:48 acdw tho i admit, i don't really know what any of it means
2020-11-06 15:29:50 bie but i'm gonna have to do a slight rewrite or... just run two processes
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2020-11-06 15:41:33 ddevault (probably a bad) idea: status code 12: multi-line input requested
2020-11-06 15:41:57 ddevault or s/multi-line/bulk/
2020-11-06 15:42:09 ddevault the client's follow-up request would include said input following the CRLF in the request URL
2020-11-06 15:43:09 bie doesn't that mean the server would have to keep track of clients?
2020-11-06 15:43:41 ddevault servers already have to do that, but sure, what of it?
2020-11-06 15:43:56 bie not across requests, though
2020-11-06 15:44:22 ddevault it wouldn't be different from 10 or 11 in that respect
2020-11-06 15:44:46 bie it would in the sense that for a 10 or 11 you can still just parse the request as normal
2020-11-06 15:45:09 ddevault aye, it would introduce some additional request processing
2020-11-06 15:45:14 bie quite a bit more, imo
2020-11-06 15:45:24 bie right now, like... uh
2020-11-06 15:45:29 ddevault s/read until CRLF/read until connection is closed/
2020-11-06 15:45:31 ddevault nbd imo
2020-11-06 15:45:40 ddevault and it'd be backwards compatible and opt-in for server implementations
2020-11-06 15:45:54 bie ok, yeah i see your point
2020-11-06 15:46:12 bie if the request handling was changed to read until closed it wouldn't be a big deal
2020-11-06 15:49:52 ddevault use-cases: long-form text input (e.g. on a BBS), file uploads
2020-11-06 15:51:23 nytpu the benefts are pretty compelling actually
2020-11-06 15:51:42 ddevault also is somewhat backwards compatible with unsupported clients, who can just treat it like 30
2020-11-06 15:51:56 ddevault the server can detect this and show an error message, or process the ?input as if it were given long form
2020-11-06 15:52:03 nytpu but i'm already seeing the mailing list: "http is right there"
2020-11-06 15:52:21 ddevault note: I am generally strong against extending the protocol in any way
2020-11-06 15:52:27 nytpu i am too
2020-11-06 15:52:31 ddevault if this came up on the ML I'd be right there looking for reasons to dismiss it
2020-11-06 15:52:40 nytpu but i'd rather have full discussion than just dismiss it saying "use http"
2020-11-06 15:53:07 nytpu it feels like a cop-out when people don't feel like actually discussing the merits and downsides of a proposal
2020-11-06 15:54:26 @julienxx I feel the "use http" answer is kinda needed since there are mostly two crowds coming to gemini, those from gopher and those from http each with different ideas on what to do with the protocol
2020-11-06 15:54:51 @julienxx basically the ones want to serve text and those who wants simple apps
2020-11-06 15:55:01 felix Y'all realize that's exactly what most people will end up doing, right?
2020-11-06 15:55:09 ddevault at the moment, gemini's design heavily favors consumption
2020-11-06 15:55:14 ddevault anyone who wants to produce should probably set up a gemini server
2020-11-06 15:55:18 ddevault this is okay if we decide that's what we want
2020-11-06 15:55:38 ddevault right now even simple BBSes are difficult to pull off within these constraints
2020-11-06 15:55:46 ddevault not necessarily a bad thing, and the last thing I want is to build "apps" with gemini
2020-11-06 15:56:03 nytpu i'd actually be fine with gemini as-is without changing, there are lot's of things that are like "that'd be nice to have," but isn't it missing those things by design?
2020-11-06 15:56:35 ddevault well, let me rephrase this point
2020-11-06 15:56:46 ddevault gemini is missing some things, and generally this is understood to be by design
2020-11-06 15:56:57 ddevault so if we want to talk about extensions, we have to establish a philosophical framework for deciding the scope of gemini
2020-11-06 15:57:21 @julienxx a gemini issue right now is that ithe nput type is just not enough for most interactivity
2020-11-06 15:57:27 ddevault so, do we want a strictly consumption-oriented protocol?
2020-11-06 15:57:39 ddevault right now basically the only use-case for input is searching
2020-11-06 15:57:43 ddevault correct me if I'm wrong
2020-11-06 15:57:46 @julienxx there was the titan proposal for writing stuff but I'm not sure it caught on
2020-11-06 15:57:46 bie ddevault: guestbooks lol
2020-11-06 15:58:08 ddevault sure, that too
2020-11-06 15:58:27 @julienxx and kensanata did something for his wiki that elpher supports
2020-11-06 15:58:35 felix Try a different angle: do you want a protocol that will ever be used by anyone except the nerdiest of nerds?
2020-11-06 15:58:49 ddevault not to say that other use-cases haven't been attempted - but they're, in my opinon, deeply flawed
2020-11-06 15:59:00 nytpu there's a lot of potential if you expanded input possibilities
2020-11-06 15:59:05 ddevault felix: I don't want to address that line of thought. Popularity is not something that should factor into our decision making
2020-11-06 15:59:08 bie felix: hey now, i'm using it!
2020-11-06 15:59:10 ddevault we want something good, not something with mass appeal
2020-11-06 15:59:28 felix Then it's perfectly all right to keep Gemini as-is.
2020-11-06 15:59:32 nytpu i think it's pretty obvious that good stuff does not generally have mass appeal
2020-11-06 15:59:32 @julienxx there is a lot of potential and also it's easy to redo http 1.0 without html in the end
2020-11-06 15:59:36 nytpu look at anything anywhere
2020-11-06 15:59:39 ddevault felix: that doesn't follow
2020-11-06 15:59:44 felix And decide that no extensions will be considered, period.
2020-11-06 15:59:49 ddevault that also does not follow
2020-11-06 15:59:57 bie ddevault: i think the biggest breaking change with something like that is unrelated to read until end of line vs read until connection is closed
2020-11-06 16:00:15 bie right now the request is limited to 1024 bytes
2020-11-06 16:00:19 ddevault fwiw, there is some precedent here given that clients read until the connection is closed
2020-11-06 16:00:20 acdw ddevault: that's a bad idea lol
2020-11-06 16:00:24 acdw 12 is
2020-11-06 16:00:25 bie and i actually really like that limitation
2020-11-06 16:00:33 acdw you could just embed \ns in there
2020-11-06 16:00:35 acdw i ... guess
2020-11-06 16:01:05 ddevault fwiw the exchange could be artibrarily long with e.g. TLS renegotiation
2020-11-06 16:01:12 nytpu bie: it just prevents a lot of possibilities that could be realized with even a little bit more space
2020-11-06 16:01:40 nytpu and that's 1024 bytes of request + url, so if you have a long url then your input length is truncated
2020-11-06 16:01:47 insep i think i would be nice to have some options to pin stuff at the sides (like some info about author on the right and useful links on the left) and option to create multiple input fields, but first one would create problems with adaptivity and second one is very dangerous to add :\
2020-11-06 16:02:21 nytpu i think gemini needs some modicum of real interativity, it just opens up a lot of creativity options
2020-11-06 16:02:36 ddevault one issue with the input is that it fails to accept URLs as input
2020-11-06 16:02:47 acdw one thing I think *might* be okay is a convention for metadata in the file, like %author: stuff
2020-11-06 16:03:03 acdw which dumb clients could jsut display and smart ones could .. do whatever with
2020-11-06 16:03:09 ddevault not all valid gemini URLs could be encoded as the query string of another gemini URL and produce a valid URL as a result
2020-11-06 16:03:20 nytpu i'm actually more against that just becuase i don't like what's meant to be a freeform document into encoding semantic information
2020-11-06 16:03:26 ddevault ^
2020-11-06 16:03:29 ddevault yeah I'm not into that one
2020-11-06 16:03:31 nytpu that's similar to the discussion for having highlighting for code blocks
2020-11-06 16:05:32 ddevault I appreciate that there is very little in the way of semantic information in a gemtext document
2020-11-06 16:05:46 ddevault alt text for code blocks and the URLs for links are basically it, and both hardly count
2020-11-06 16:07:19 ddevault the combination of gemini and gemtext in the same standard have interesting implications about how gemini is presented and discussed
2020-11-06 16:07:26 acdw fair enough nytpu
2020-11-06 16:08:12 acdw i agree too with ddevault -- it makes text/geminit the *de facto* standard, though technically you *can* serve any content type
2020-11-06 16:08:37 @julienxx yeah I don't really get the complaints around presentation issues, you "could" serve html over gemini if you really wanted some kind of layout
2020-11-06 16:08:41 acdw ^
2020-11-06 16:08:42 ddevault I am strong against gemini servers serving text/html, or gemini clients rendering it, for example
2020-11-06 16:08:53 acdw but like...... authors *could*
2020-11-06 16:08:56 acdw if they *want* to
2020-11-06 16:08:56 ddevault and I think we should stop dismissing people's arguments based on that possibility
2020-11-06 16:09:18 @julienxx I am too for the record hence my disinterest in presentation issues
2020-11-06 16:09:19 ddevault I can tell you with 100% certainty that my gemini browser will never display HTML
2020-11-06 16:09:46 bie if i make a browser it will display html!
2020-11-06 16:09:48 acdw lol
2020-11-06 16:09:50 bie but, like
2020-11-06 16:09:56 bie the same way it displays text/plain
2020-11-06 16:09:58 tane verbatim html? :)
2020-11-06 16:10:10 ddevault oh, well, mine already does that :P
2020-11-06 16:10:20 acdw I mean---- at bottom, if someone *wants* to serve HTML, clients can just show the plain html, and then the user can download or pipe it to w3m/lynx/firefox/hatever
2020-11-06 16:10:26 acdw so no problems htere
2020-11-06 16:10:40 bie huh, could someone check if gemini://blekksprut.net is responding to ipv4 now 😂
2020-11-06 16:10:43 acdw I have this aesthetic dream of a gemini client that pops up windows for different mime-types all around it
2020-11-06 16:10:57 tane acdw, like other applications?
2020-11-06 16:11:02 bie acdw: that's... what i'm making actually
2020-11-06 16:11:04 bie kind of
2020-11-06 16:11:04 acdw bie: not yet
2020-11-06 16:11:05 @julienxx bie: works here
2020-11-06 16:11:09 acdw tane: yes!
2020-11-06 16:11:11 ddevault bie: works
2020-11-06 16:11:13 acdw i should make a thing
2020-11-06 16:11:17 bie thanks!
2020-11-06 16:11:22 tane acdw, I've been using "lagrange" today, it opens .html links in firefox :)
2020-11-06 16:11:24 acdw oh it must be work's firewall
2020-11-06 16:11:27 acdw oh that's dope
2020-11-06 16:11:34 acdw bie: also interested in your thing :)
2020-11-06 16:12:16 bie i started writing a gopher client KIND OF like that last year
2020-11-06 16:13:01 ddevault bie: かわいい猫
2020-11-06 16:13:02 bie it didn't open os windows, but "windows" inside the app itself
2020-11-06 16:13:18 bie ddevault: ☺️
2020-11-06 16:13:34 ddevault サーバが超ゆっくりけど
2020-11-06 16:14:11 bie バグだと思う
2020-11-06 16:14:19 bie ipv6は大丈夫そうwww
2020-11-06 16:14:38 nytpu well, i knew what the first one says but that's about it
2020-11-06 16:15:11 ddevault でも世界ではIPV6がもういない
2020-11-06 16:15:14 ddevault tfw no ipv6
2020-11-06 16:15:28 acdw like this: https://ttm.sh/dFU.png
2020-11-06 16:15:30 bie ddevault: where are you at?
2020-11-06 16:15:49 acdw bie: nifty
2020-11-06 16:15:55 bie acdw: yes yes! i started writing the gopher client in a game engine actually - love2d
2020-11-06 16:16:02 acdw also I should totally make a wm theme that looks just like this
2020-11-06 16:16:03 ddevault 俺の人生ではIPV6が家から使った時がない
2020-11-06 16:16:04 acdw bie dope af
2020-11-06 16:16:11 bie and it was like vaporwave-themed
2020-11-06 16:16:28 ddevault bie: philadelphia, in theory; the middle of nowhere, in practice
2020-11-06 16:16:46 acdw oh dope AF
2020-11-06 16:17:25 bie acdw: i wanted to pick it up again, but for gemini... kind of got stuck on the ssl stuff
2020-11-06 16:17:27 kayw oh damn, kristall doesn't render bie's site correctly
2020-11-06 16:17:40 kayw it doesnt know the characters and emojis
2020-11-06 16:17:55 kayw s/kn/sh
2020-11-06 16:18:07 nytpu it looks fine to me
2020-11-06 16:18:28 wgreenhouse looks good on elpher
2020-11-06 16:18:29 bie ddevault: ahhh~ the server has been up for like a week or two and i never realized ipv4 wasn't working
2020-11-06 16:18:39 bie work, internet at home and phone all support ipv6
2020-11-06 16:18:55 nytpu does the font kristall's using have emojis?
2020-11-06 16:18:57 ddevault bie: where are you located?
2020-11-06 16:19:04 kayw hmmm, odd... maybe im on an older version? I totally have the fonts to render them
2020-11-06 16:19:15 bie ddevault: tokyo
2020-11-06 16:19:26 ddevault are you japanese or a transplant?
2020-11-06 16:19:30 ddevault if you don't mind the question
2020-11-06 16:19:32 kayw nytpu: oh it might actually be because im using Fira Sans lmao
2020-11-06 16:19:37 ddevault I lived in osaka for 3 months, loved it there
2020-11-06 16:19:53 bie ddevault: originally from norway, but never moving back ;)
2020-11-06 16:19:56 bie osaka is great
2020-11-06 16:20:02 ddevault tokyo is a bit stuffy for my tastes
2020-11-06 16:20:07 nytpu kayw: yeah i had to fiddle with the fonts
2020-11-06 16:20:12 ddevault though you can't beat its access to all sorts of cool things
2020-11-06 16:20:48 acdw i wanna go to japan
2020-11-06 16:21:26 kayw same
2020-11-06 16:21:47 ▬▬▶ nihilazo has joined #gemini
2020-11-06 16:21:52 bie haha i've got a window open tailing the server log
2020-11-06 16:22:09 bie and i see people go to the random photo url but have no idea what they're getting
2020-11-06 16:23:05 kayw aw fuck
2020-11-06 16:23:10 kayw i just realized i made a terrible mistake
2020-11-06 16:23:23 low-key bie: the links on your site crash my client :(
2020-11-06 16:23:27 kayw people were using my atom.xml and i deleted it...
2020-11-06 16:23:42 kayw i don't remember why, but I had it
2020-11-06 16:23:45 bie low-key: oops i'm sorry 😂 oh is it the ios one?
2020-11-06 16:23:52 low-key It's the Android one
2020-11-06 16:23:54 low-key Ariane
2020-11-06 16:23:56 bie ahh ok
2020-11-06 16:24:15 bie never tried that one, but it's a known bug on the ios client
2020-11-06 16:24:43 acdw bie: I like the random photos! very cool
2020-11-06 16:24:51 nytpu really can't handle tx responses?
2020-11-06 16:24:55 bie acdw: thanks!
2020-11-06 16:25:05 nytpu s/tx/5x/
2020-11-06 16:25:12 acdw D:
2020-11-06 16:25:13 acdw :D
2020-11-06 16:25:13 acdw *
2020-11-06 16:25:48 bie ...2044 photos in total
2020-11-06 16:25:53 low-key The random photo link just throws an error for me
2020-11-06 16:26:08 low-key Should I be reporting this to Ariane's dev?
2020-11-06 16:26:13 low-key I wonder if they're on this server
2020-11-06 16:26:33 bie low-key: i wanna try something if it's ok... the "front page" works for you, right?
2020-11-06 16:27:10 kayw shit. someone remind me: what's the peice of software that'll make an atom.xml for a gemlog
2020-11-06 16:27:57 acdw solderpunk made it
2020-11-06 16:28:14 acdw https://tildegit.org/solderpunk/gemfeed
2020-11-06 16:28:18 kayw that was it
2020-11-06 16:28:21 kayw thanks acdw
2020-11-06 16:28:30 acdw :D
2020-11-06 16:28:31 acdw yw
2020-11-06 16:29:37 low-key bie: yup!
2020-11-06 16:29:38 bie ddevault: i kind of get what you're saying about tokyo... but i've made more friends in 3 years here than the preceding 15 years in norway. got really lucky, i think
2020-11-06 16:29:51 nytpu adcw: i can't do anything original can i, i wrote pretty much the exact same thing
2020-11-06 16:29:52 bie low-key: i added a new link with just ascii characters in the url just for you
2020-11-06 16:30:08 bie should show up if you reload the /
2020-11-06 16:30:17 low-key Yessir
2020-11-06 16:30:41 low-key Okay, even that crashed my browser
2020-11-06 16:30:51 low-key Lemme try from amfora on my laptop
2020-11-06 16:30:53 bie ok then it's probably the big image :)
2020-11-06 16:31:13 acdw lol nytpu
2020-11-06 16:31:23 acdw make another one!
2020-11-06 16:31:28 acdw make yr own software
2020-11-06 16:31:35 acdw softwarepunk
2020-11-06 16:32:00 nytpu mine's more of a ripoff of bashblog tho
2020-11-06 16:32:05 acdw noice!
2020-11-06 16:32:32 ddevault still tailing those logs, bie?
2020-11-06 16:32:53 bie ddevault: haha that's you bringing some color?
2020-11-06 16:33:00 ddevault yep
2020-11-06 16:33:04 bie nice!
2020-11-06 16:33:58 ★ ddevault telnet towel.blinkenlights.nl | nc blekksprut.net 1965
2020-11-06 16:34:43 bie lol
2020-11-06 16:36:25 kayw ok fixed my atom.xml
2020-11-06 16:37:46 acdw rad
2020-11-06 16:38:03 acdw but do you know where your towel is?
2020-11-06 16:38:08 bie acdw: nice cottage!
2020-11-06 16:38:30 acdw :D thanks!
2020-11-06 16:41:41 nytpu does anyone know of a good embedded tls library?
2020-11-06 16:41:54 nytpu i'm looking to go to the extremes of gemini clients
2020-11-06 16:47:15 raiz ok, guys I think I agree with this change, 10 and 11 are a bit flawed by design due to the request size limit, what comes to mind is that there is no way of determining the available size for search queries, or password inputs for that matter, passwords should not be limited by length. There's also the scenario of the URL taking all space that there is no space for the input
2020-11-06 16:47:15 raiz string anymore, that is a very possible scenario and it shouldn't be dealt with. Instead of proposing a new 12 response code, I'd suggest reworking 10 and 11, but until now, I'm not going to propose any change because I haven't implemented the protocol yet and I might not have enough perspective to make such calls, but just something to keep in mind for the future.
2020-11-06 16:47:54 acdw okay but like, ,,,, 1024 is a *huge* limit
2020-11-06 16:48:12 acdw if you have a 2000 character password, uh
2020-11-06 16:48:16 raiz indeed, but how can we tell what's left of it?
2020-11-06 16:48:32 nytpu yeah hopefully your url isn't 1024 characters long lol
2020-11-06 16:48:34 raiz s/until now/until then
2020-11-06 16:48:43 acdw you could try asking the author of GUS for the longest URL on geminispace, but I doubt there's one longer than 200 characters
2020-11-06 16:48:49 raiz I'm suggesting in the hypothetical scenario
2020-11-06 16:48:59 acdw yeah, but those don't really happen
2020-11-06 16:49:01 raiz what about onion v3 addresses?
2020-11-06 16:49:19 raiz for tor hidden services?
2020-11-06 16:49:21 acdw how long are those?
2020-11-06 16:49:33 ★ raiz pulls out a ruler
2020-11-06 16:49:36 raiz sec...
2020-11-06 16:49:48 acdw You can identify a next-generation onion address by its length: they are 56 characters long,
2020-11-06 16:50:23 acdw whch...is long, but nowhere near 1024 lol
2020-11-06 16:50:39 raiz yeah
2020-11-06 16:51:02 makeworld bie: Cool capsule! Nice job encoding the links correctly ;)
2020-11-06 16:51:02 raiz I don't know, I just don't like how the input size is not determined
2020-11-06 16:51:14 nytpu i was thinking it'd be interesting to have some sort of text adventure, but even then input lines wouldn't ever be more than like... 15 characters
2020-11-06 16:51:15 raiz or rather, not persistent
2020-11-06 16:51:27 bie makeworld: thanks!
2020-11-06 16:51:30 makeworld Yeah it's a bit annoying but practically it doesn't really matter raiz
2020-11-06 16:51:41 raiz yeah, you're right
2020-11-06 16:51:45 nytpu and i think the limit is nice and long, i'm not too worried about the length
2020-11-06 16:51:47 raiz anyway...
2020-11-06 16:51:50 ★ raiz moves on
2020-11-06 16:52:01 makeworld nytpu: Why not? If you use a client cert to keep state you can just keep the same base URL instead of nesting
2020-11-06 16:52:09 raiz I just realized the longest password I have is 64 characters long
2020-11-06 16:52:12 nytpu yeah, that's what i was planning
2020-11-06 16:52:27 nytpu i was saying even for an interactive game it wouldn't even come close to the input limit
2020-11-06 16:52:51 makeworld Ohh I misread your msg, thought you were complaining
2020-11-06 16:53:06 bie client certs really open up a lot of fun possibilities
2020-11-06 16:53:07 makeworld I was like wth kind of text adv. game is this where you're typing hundreds of characters lol
2020-11-06 16:53:23 nytpu the main reason for longer lines would be if you wanted content authorship in geminispace itself instead of via sftp
2020-11-06 16:53:28 nytpu or like, file uploads or something
2020-11-06 16:53:30 makeworld bie: They sure do! Astrobotany is an awesome "demo"
2020-11-06 16:53:43 makeworld Ah yeah that's been discussed a lot on the mailing list
2020-11-06 16:54:22 makeworld Increasing the limit to 8192 was suggested, and several alternative protocols were proposed
2020-11-06 16:54:34 makeworld And gemlog.blue was created to fill the gap
2020-11-06 16:54:50 makeworld https://gemlog.blue and gemini://gemlog.bue
2020-11-06 16:54:52 makeworld *blue
2020-11-06 16:55:00 nytpu i don't know, i've seen proposals for "sidecar protocols" that let you do stuff like that out-of-band
2020-11-06 16:55:10 nytpu and i was just about to mention gemlog.blue
2020-11-06 16:55:11 makeworld Yeah that's what I mean. Titan is one example
2020-11-06 16:55:15 makeworld Oh ha
2020-11-06 16:55:25 makeworld None of them have really caught on that much, but personally I don't mind
2020-11-06 16:55:48 acdw i like the sidecar protocol stuff
2020-11-06 16:55:57 acdw i like the iea of micro-protocols that all do one thing
2020-11-06 16:56:10 aravk ^
2020-11-06 16:56:12 bie yeahhh i like that too
2020-11-06 16:56:28 nytpu i have mixed opinions, becuase on one hand, it creates fragmentation, but on the other i do like having the unix philosophy for protocols
2020-11-06 16:57:07 makeworld Yeah. My mine problem with the micro protocols proposed is that they don't really exist outside the mailing list. I want them to have a website, and/or a git repo, so that they can be standardized and tracked
2020-11-06 16:57:12 makeworld *My main
2020-11-06 16:57:18 ddevault an issue with multiple protocols
2020-11-06 16:57:22 ddevault is that it offloads complexity onto clients
2020-11-06 16:57:26 ddevault I like one binary == one protocol
2020-11-06 16:57:54 ddevault and unless you build some kind of meta browser that defers protocol knowledge to a bunch of other programs and uses some meta protocol to... nevermind, this is disgusting
2020-11-06 16:57:59 nytpu and yeah, it makes me think of xmpp where you can't just implement a protocol, you have to deal with all the random extensions that change all the time
2020-11-06 16:58:28 ddevault its always bothered me that curl does anything other than HTTP, for instance
2020-11-06 16:58:29 nytpu and it means that some clients might have this featureset and some might have this different featureset depending on what protocols they implement
2020-11-06 16:59:21 makeworld curl is explicitly multi-protocol though
2020-11-06 16:59:30 makeworld Like it's supposed to be a swiss army knife I thought
2020-11-06 16:59:59 ddevault the only program which I appreciate grokking many protocols is probably ffmpeg
2020-11-06 17:00:23 nytpu but even ffmpeg offloads a lot to those protocols respective libraries, right?
2020-11-06 17:00:24 makeworld Cause that's the point of it, isn't it?
2020-11-06 17:00:48 acdw ddevault: yesssss that's what i'm talking about
2020-11-06 17:00:52 acdw META BRWOSER
2020-11-06 17:00:53 ddevault I don't generally like libraries as a solution to a problem
2020-11-06 17:00:59 makeworld nytpu: I think they write a lot of their own libs
2020-11-06 17:01:08 acdw of course, i'm not a dev really, so.....
2020-11-06 17:01:24 makeworld Once you have 2 meta browsers than the need for meta-meta-browsers is imminent
2020-11-06 17:01:29 acdw ddevault: you should write hurl, which is curl but *just* http :P
2020-11-06 17:01:36 ddevault no
2020-11-06 17:01:38 acdw lol
2020-11-06 17:01:40 ddevault I don't want to implement http
2020-11-06 17:01:47 acdw oof fair enough
2020-11-06 17:01:53 acdw good name tho -- in line with 'shit'
2020-11-06 17:02:12 makeworld There is no just HTTP, you'd have to support 0.9, 1, 1.1, 2, and later: 3
2020-11-06 17:02:13 ★ acdw is a name-driven developer
2020-11-06 17:02:19 makeworld Haha
2020-11-06 17:02:22 acdw yeesh yeah no thanks
2020-11-06 17:02:29 acdw Gemini 2.3
2020-11-06 17:02:33 makeworld Oh no
2020-11-06 17:02:36 acdw ha
2020-11-06 17:02:41 @tomasino https://oldvcr.blogspot.com/2020/11/a-gopher-view-of-gemini.html
2020-11-06 17:03:46 makeworld > scripting is for playwrights
2020-11-06 17:03:48 makeworld Nice one
2020-11-06 17:04:53 acdw tomasino: pretty sure i posted that earlier this morning XD
2020-11-06 17:07:02 makeworld https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25008938
2020-11-06 17:07:11 makeworld We'll what HN thinks... lol
2020-11-06 17:08:13 raiz acdw: http://git.codemadness.org/hurl/file/README.html
2020-11-06 17:08:43 acdw makeworld: LOL
2020-11-06 17:08:46 acdw raiz: dope!
2020-11-06 17:08:55 raiz acdw: you could do something similar to metabrowser right now using something like plan 9 plumbing
2020-11-06 17:09:06 acdw heck yes
2020-11-06 17:09:07 ddevault acme is kind of a meta-browser
2020-11-06 17:09:09 acdw hto..plan 9
2020-11-06 17:09:14 acdw i don't wanna plan9
2020-11-06 17:09:18 acdw the movie was bad enough
2020-11-06 17:09:18 ddevault bullshit
2020-11-06 17:09:21 ddevault everyone wanna plan9
2020-11-06 17:09:29 makeworld Haha sure seems that way on fedi
2020-11-06 17:09:29 raiz lol
2020-11-06 17:09:38 acdw i've been pushing against it
2020-11-06 17:09:44 acdw i'm sure one day i'll switch
2020-11-06 17:09:50 ddevault plan 9 is literally god
2020-11-06 17:09:53 ddevault worship at its feet
2020-11-06 17:10:00 makeworld I haven't seen anyone actually switch, am I wrong?
2020-11-06 17:10:03 makeworld Lolol
2020-11-06 17:10:10 makeworld Wanna pitch it ddevault?
2020-11-06 17:10:16 acdw ddevault: I thought that was TempleOS?
2020-11-06 17:10:18 @julienxx plan9 is the best os evar, I think I got into it after one of your toots ddevault :)
2020-11-06 17:10:22 ddevault literally everything plan 9 does is better than literally everything any OS does, makeworld
2020-11-06 17:10:30 acdw okay, what's the plan9 os i should instal?
2020-11-06 17:10:34 acdw 9front?
2020-11-06 17:10:36 makeworld Damn that's pretty compelling
2020-11-06 17:10:41 ddevault yes, 9front is the best
2020-11-06 17:10:53 makeworld http://9fs.net/
2020-11-06 17:10:54 raiz ddevault: that's debatable
2020-11-06 17:10:56 makeworld This?
2020-11-06 17:10:56 acdw also .... i'm ashamed of htis, but i never *really* figured out qemu
2020-11-06 17:11:04 acdw raiz: what's the best then
2020-11-06 17:11:04 ddevault raiz: correct
2020-11-06 17:11:06 ddevault raiz: let's not
2020-11-06 17:11:07 ★ acdw watches a fight
2020-11-06 17:11:13 raiz 9p is the best thing about plan 9, yet it's the worst thing about it too
2020-11-06 17:11:31 ddevault how about this exercise
2020-11-06 17:11:37 ddevault name something you like about linux and I'll tell you how plan 9 does it better
2020-11-06 17:11:48 raiz I won't praise linux
2020-11-06 17:11:50 @julienxx systemd
2020-11-06 17:11:55 ddevault next
2020-11-06 17:12:13 acdw system...e?
2020-11-06 17:12:13 nytpu if plan9 doesn't have systemd then i'm entirely on board
2020-11-06 17:12:14 insep vim
2020-11-06 17:12:23 ddevault plan 9 has a vim port
2020-11-06 17:12:28 ddevault but acme is an interesting editor that you should try
2020-11-06 17:12:52 acdw i don't have an old school 3 button mouse
2020-11-06 17:12:55 acdw tho... i should get one
2020-11-06 17:12:57 ddevault its "plugin" API is better than vim by orders of magnitude without being the gross undulating mass that is emacs
2020-11-06 17:13:01 kayw from the time i used 9front, acme was a very nice editor. Had a few quirks that I was unfamiliar with, but overall very nice.
2020-11-06 17:13:03 acdw i don't like the scroll-button-middle-button
2020-11-06 17:13:12 insep i tried, i kinda prefer scrolling by dragging the bar :D
2020-11-06 17:13:12 ddevault so scroll with the left and right buttons
2020-11-06 17:13:15 acdw uh emacs is bae tho
2020-11-06 17:13:29 ddevault the scroll bar on plan 9 is a good example of being better by leaps and bounds
2020-11-06 17:13:42 ddevault the vertical distance from the top determines how far you scroll up/down when you left/right click
2020-11-06 17:13:42 acdw what I'd LOVE ---- oh wow, just thought htis - is 3 buttons + scroll wheel on side
2020-11-06 17:13:50 ddevault if you right click at the 3rd line you will scroll down by 3 lines
2020-11-06 17:13:51 bie systemd is great - it made me drop linux for openbsd!
2020-11-06 17:13:52 acdw that's a good deseign
2020-11-06 17:13:58 acdw lol bie
2020-11-06 17:14:05 insep also terminal emulation in acme is kinda incomplete, which was a problem for me at the time
2020-11-06 17:14:14 acdw oh fr?
2020-11-06 17:14:15 tane ddevault, a mouse wheel makes all of this obsolete
2020-11-06 17:14:17 ddevault well, plan 9 doesn't use ANSI at all, so
2020-11-06 17:14:24 ddevault tane: mouse wheel also works
2020-11-06 17:14:38 ddevault but the plan 9 scroll bar gives you more options, and the options make sense
2020-11-06 17:14:55 makeworld I haven't heard much, but all the network file stuff intrigued me
2020-11-06 17:15:03 ddevault the network file stuff is quite cool
2020-11-06 17:15:10 makeworld Like they took "everything is a file" to include tcp connections and stuff? I think?
2020-11-06 17:15:24 ddevault 9p is also how plan 9 does containers so much better than linux (and freebsd (and solaris)) as to make their pathetic attempts laughable
2020-11-06 17:15:26 insep i need to use acme again tbh, it was a while since i used it and i forgot what i liked and what i disliked about it lol
2020-11-06 17:15:51 ddevault makeworld: aye, networking is done by reading and writing to files. Plan 9 does not have ioctls
2020-11-06 17:15:56 insep how does plan9 do elf? хD
2020-11-06 17:15:57 makeworld Huh
2020-11-06 17:16:14 ddevault every plan 9 process has its own filesystem namespace, which the parent process can configure by selectively mounting or unmounting things
2020-11-06 17:16:24 ddevault want to isolate a process from the network? just unmount the network device
2020-11-06 17:16:38 nytpu that's what intrigued me when i first read about it
2020-11-06 17:16:41 nytpu i really like that concept
2020-11-06 17:16:49 ddevault and because all file I/O is performed over the network-transparent 9P protocol
2020-11-06 17:17:01 ddevault the "network device" could actually be mounted from another machine, which is how you do a VPN
2020-11-06 17:17:19 ddevault or, it could be an emulated network device implemented by a userspace file server which just groks the same reads/writes as the kernel
2020-11-06 17:17:50 makeworld :0
2020-11-06 17:17:55 ddevault this is also how all graphical programs work: the window manager shadows the display device files with its own implementation, and rather than forwarding it to the VGA controller it draws them in windows
2020-11-06 17:18:09 ddevault any graphical program can be run directly on the VGA hardware without any modifications by just running it instead of the WM
2020-11-06 17:18:19 ddevault or on a remote machine's VGA device by forwarding it over 9p ;)
2020-11-06 17:18:20 acdw best part of plan 9 imo is the colorscheme
2020-11-06 17:18:21 @julienxx The ability to union mount is really neat
2020-11-06 17:18:35 ddevault for sure, linux's unionfs is another embarassment
2020-11-06 17:18:47 makeworld Woah
2020-11-06 17:18:58 insep for me the best part of plan9 is rio
2020-11-06 17:19:09 acdw the rio ... colorscheme? :P
2020-11-06 17:19:14 ddevault makeworld: familiar with the BSD socket API?
2020-11-06 17:19:28 kayw it's hard to believe that M$ uses 9p2000.L for the WSL
2020-11-06 17:19:28 insep acdw: rio is wm
2020-11-06 17:19:34 acdw lol yea
2020-11-06 17:19:47 acdw twas a joke :)
2020-11-06 17:19:47 makeworld Not really drew
2020-11-06 17:19:57 ddevault hm, what's your programming language of choice
2020-11-06 17:19:59 ddevault the lowest level one
2020-11-06 17:20:16 makeworld I've done some C, but mostly use Go and Python :P
2020-11-06 17:20:24 ddevault whelp
2020-11-06 17:20:27 makeworld Yeah lol
2020-11-06 17:20:28 ddevault Go is heavily inspired by plan 9
2020-11-06 17:20:44 makeworld Ah I feel like I've heard that. What connections do you see?
2020-11-06 17:20:44 ddevault almost all of Go's most innovative features can trace their lineage directly back to plan 9
2020-11-06 17:20:55 ddevault well, for one, Go literally started as a fork of the plan 9 C compilers
2020-11-06 17:21:01 ddevault and it was written by the same people who wrote plan 9
2020-11-06 17:21:14 ddevault goroutines and channels are also directly traceable back to plan 9's process model
2020-11-06 17:21:22 acdw best thing about Go: the font
2020-11-06 17:21:23 ddevault plan 9 also invented UTF-8
2020-11-06 17:21:33 ddevault and /proc
2020-11-06 17:21:43 acdw best thing about UTF-8: emoji
2020-11-06 17:22:07 ddevault worst thing about UTF-8: no tengwar support, fucking WHEN Unicode consortium it's been 15 GODDAMN YEARS
2020-11-06 17:22:30 insep lol
2020-11-06 17:22:38 kayw lmao
2020-11-06 17:22:42 makeworld acdw: It's getting worse and worse each time lol
2020-11-06 17:22:51 bie i like go, but always end up doing personal projects in c (or sometimes lua)
2020-11-06 17:23:07 ddevault Go is not a systems programming language
2020-11-06 17:23:07 nytpu i always go back to c
2020-11-06 17:23:10 ddevault it's an internet programming language
2020-11-06 17:23:18 kayw i need to learn C
2020-11-06 17:23:20 nytpu i don't write enough internet stuff to justify go as a primary language
2020-11-06 17:23:24 tane bie, nytpu even programms heavy on utf8 processing?
2020-11-06 17:23:46 acdw best thing about makeworld: the .gq TLD
2020-11-06 17:23:47 acdw :P
2020-11-06 17:24:00 ddevault what is gq?
2020-11-06 17:24:01 nytpu ehhh, that's where i jump around, i meant that i don't use it enough to call it one of the main languages i use
2020-11-06 17:24:05 acdw i dno't even know tbh
2020-11-06 17:24:19 ddevault Equatorial Guinea
2020-11-06 17:24:27 acdw oh neat!
2020-11-06 17:24:31 raiz ddevault: plan 9 kernel exports and imports resources through 9p, 9p has latency issues, I haven't found a decent proposal to fix these issues with 9p, it seems it could not be used universally, for example, you could implement streaming in 9p through alternate channels where if I request a transaction through a 9p connection, I'd receive back a port to connect to through the same
2020-11-06 17:24:31 raiz host to continue this transaction, this offloads the main server channel but also comes with the limitation that it can only be done through TCP, which is anti-plan 9 philosophy of having 9p connections go through any communication channel. what I'd suggest doing instead, which can't be fixed in plan 9 currently, is having a kernel (in the plan 9 definition of kernel) that
2020-11-06 17:24:31 raiz implements different resource protocols and maintain the distributed natureo of plan 9, so for example, I could use 9p for certain mounts in the file system, while also using SFTP for my homedir, and I could use a different protocol for display, this could be something like devdraw but without 9p, or a local protocol like OpenGL, and so on. So instead of using 9p for everything,
2020-11-06 17:24:31 raiz we'd have a protocol suite with each protocol tailored for its specific task. I think redoxos tried to do something similar with universal links throughout the system but I'm not sure about how they're doing it exactly.
2020-11-06 17:24:36 ddevault jesus fucking christ
2020-11-06 17:24:55 makeworld The .gq domain was free ;)
2020-11-06 17:24:56 ddevault I'm not reading all of that
2020-11-06 17:24:56 kayw well, that's a lot of text
2020-11-06 17:25:00 ddevault this is IRC, not an email thread
2020-11-06 17:25:04 ddevault 9p
2020-11-06 17:25:09 acdw oh nice makeworld! Also it's not the best thing about you, that's your eyes ;)
2020-11-06 17:25:12 ddevault 9p's* design constraints are the bottleneck in plan 9
2020-11-06 17:25:13 makeworld Aww
2020-11-06 17:25:14 ddevault you are correct
2020-11-06 17:25:19 acdw hehe
2020-11-06 17:25:33 makeworld Also re: Go font: it looks pretty nice actually
2020-11-06 17:25:34 makeworld https://blog.golang.org/go-fonts/go-font-code.png
2020-11-06 17:25:38 makeworld Maybe I should use it
2020-11-06 17:25:41 acdw ddevault did you read that whole thing that fast? wow
2020-11-06 17:25:42 nytpu raiz: are you using a bridge or something? you seem to have walls of text like that a lot
2020-11-06 17:25:46 acdw makeworld: Do! It's dope af
2020-11-06 17:25:48 kayw I might switch to Go Mono
2020-11-06 17:25:49 ddevault no, I said I was not going to read it
2020-11-06 17:25:52 makeworld Serif though...
2020-11-06 17:25:54 ddevault makeworld: guess where it comes from ;)
2020-11-06 17:25:59 raiz of course plan 9 is great, but it's taught us lessons, we can start over again
2020-11-06 17:26:01 acdw oh okay, lol
2020-11-06 17:26:06 acdw I was gonna say .... that was quickkkk
2020-11-06 17:26:11 raiz nytpu: no, I'm using weechat
2020-11-06 17:26:18 acdw makeworld: I love a good serif monospace
2020-11-06 17:26:22 insep tl;dr 9p is slow and attempting to make it faster might result in making it conflict with plan9 philosophy?
2020-11-06 17:26:24 makeworld Wait nvm I'm confused, I use serif for code lol
2020-11-06 17:26:27 acdw if it had cursive italics, it'd be *chef's kiss*
2020-11-06 17:26:36 acdw lolol
2020-11-06 17:26:44 ddevault fixing 9p is the main focus of the plan 9 community right now
2020-11-06 17:26:48 ddevault give it, uh, 15-20 years
2020-11-06 17:26:52 boringcactus having a philosophy < making things that work
2020-11-06 17:26:52 boringcactus imho
2020-11-06 17:26:53 insep makeworld: oh god this looks seхy
2020-11-06 17:26:54 ddevault it's a small community and they argue a lot
2020-11-06 17:27:13 raiz tbh, I didn't understand any of aiju's proposal about 9p
2020-11-06 17:27:21 raiz had me banging my head on the wall
2020-11-06 17:27:21 tane argue constructively or about "purity of thought"? that makes a huge difference imo
2020-11-06 17:27:44 raiz this -> http://aiju.de/plan_9/9p2020
2020-11-06 17:29:00 raiz wait... this is gemini channel
2020-11-06 17:29:10 nytpu no, it's a plan9 channel
2020-11-06 17:29:17 nytpu the gemini channel no longer exists
2020-11-06 17:29:22 raiz is there.. uhmm.. technical channel of sorts in this network, like #meta?
2020-11-06 17:29:46 acdw anyway, GEMIN
2020-11-06 17:29:47 acdw i
2020-11-06 17:29:52 raiz we could take discussion elsewhere
2020-11-06 17:29:52 boringcactus idk, there's a parallel thread about taking old, mostly-abandoned computing designs and updating them juuuuust enough to be useful now
2020-11-06 17:29:56 acdw /join #meat
2020-11-06 17:30:11 raiz lol
2020-11-06 17:30:35 nytpu i mentioned this before but does anyone have a good embedded tls library? wolfssl is the only one i know of
2020-11-06 17:30:43 ddevault bearssl might be worth looking at
2020-11-06 17:30:56 insep mesalink /s
2020-11-06 17:31:04 ddevault https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_TLS_implementations#Overview
2020-11-06 17:31:06 acdw trollssl
2020-11-06 17:31:08 acdw dragonssl
2020-11-06 17:31:24 boringcactus once gemini://crowbar-lang.org exists i'm gonna write CactusSSL in it
2020-11-06 17:31:28 boringcactus because BoringSSL was taken
2020-11-06 17:31:37 acdw nice boringcactus
2020-11-06 17:31:43 ericonr nytpu: what are you using it for?
2020-11-06 17:31:53 nytpu a gemini browser on an ATmega1284
2020-11-06 17:31:59 ericonr oh, fancy
2020-11-06 17:32:04 nytpu i just have to max out the external ram to be able to hold a full page
2020-11-06 17:32:11 ddevault once [redacted] exists I'm going to write crypto/tls in it
2020-11-06 17:32:29 ericonr nytpu: fwiw, the esp32 network stack uses bearssl, iirc
2020-11-06 17:32:41 acdw oh your redactedlang?
2020-11-06 17:32:41 ericonr either esp32 or esp8266, I don't remember anymore
2020-11-06 17:33:11 nytpu should i go with esp? i just picked avr arbitrarily
2020-11-06 17:33:19 ericonr how much RAM does that even have?
2020-11-06 17:33:39 nytpu 16kib onboard with 64kib external
2020-11-06 17:33:47 ericonr oh, should be enough for keys then
2020-11-06 17:33:51 nytpu and if you bank the external then you can get megabytes
2020-11-06 17:33:51 ericonr I think
2020-11-06 17:34:15 ericonr esp probably has way more networking examples bouncing around
2020-11-06 17:34:17 boringcactus yeah drew's taking a far different approach with ████ than i am with Crowbar, but the high-level goals overlap
2020-11-06 17:34:20 ericonr examples/resources
2020-11-06 17:34:51 ddevault not sure why people call out TLS as a limiting factor for gemini on retro devices
2020-11-06 17:35:00 ddevault like, you could totally implement TLS on almost anything
2020-11-06 17:35:06 ericonr nytpu: either way, I'm having a bit of trouble with making bearssl a good fit for a gemini client
2020-11-06 17:35:09 ddevault 8 bit would be a challenge, but 32 bit wouldn't
2020-11-06 17:35:23 insep ericonr: it might be esp32, all i found for esp8266 is https://tls.mbed.org/ from https://github.com/SuperHouse/esp-open-rtos
2020-11-06 17:35:30 nytpu yeah, it'd be challenging, and i just came up with it so i have no idea if it's even feasable
2020-11-06 17:35:32 ddevault I'm sure you can coax at least some simple TLS implementation into building with SDCC
2020-11-06 17:36:05 nytpu but i might be able to coax it out of an arm7 chip i have if avr/esp doesn't work out
2020-11-06 17:37:07 ericonr insep: https://github.com/esp8266/Arduino
2020-11-06 17:37:31 ericonr nytpu: oh yeah arm is almost certainly enough
2020-11-06 17:37:42 ericonr idk about final code size, tho
2020-11-06 17:37:53 ★ insep shows clear disgust
2020-11-06 17:38:12 insep ericonr: wait, haven't i seen you elsewhere yesterday?
2020-11-06 17:38:14 ericonr insep: arduino hate much? :P
2020-11-06 17:38:23 ericonr insep: #postmarketos
2020-11-06 17:38:24 ericonr ?
2020-11-06 17:38:27 insep yup
2020-11-06 17:38:28 nytpu well i wouldn't be using arduino
2020-11-06 17:38:33 insep yup
2020-11-06 17:38:37 insep yup for both
2020-11-06 17:38:40 @tomasino i do so love arduinos
2020-11-06 17:38:43 @tomasino uno++
2020-11-06 17:38:51 ddevault I hate arduinos
2020-11-06 17:38:53 ddevault because I hate the "IDE"
2020-11-06 17:39:00 @tomasino arduini, maybe
2020-11-06 17:39:02 ddevault it's so bad that I want nothing to do with the platform
2020-11-06 17:39:03 nytpu even if i could do it with a 328p (which just doesn't have enough memory) i would never be able to fit the program in with the arduino bootloader
2020-11-06 17:39:08 nytpu and i hate the arduino ide
2020-11-06 17:39:17 ddevault ship a fucking toolchain you cunts
2020-11-06 17:39:24 @tomasino heh
2020-11-06 17:39:45 @tomasino my tinker enjoyment outweighs the tooling concerns
2020-11-06 17:39:48 insep what i like about arduino is that a heck ton of libraries
2020-11-06 17:39:58 nytpu i like using arduinos as dev boards, but i almost always wipe the bootloader and just use avdude
2020-11-06 17:40:00 insep s/that/that there's/g
2020-11-06 17:40:09 nytpu but having a power supplie and broken out pins is nice for prototyping
2020-11-06 17:40:13 makeworld https://i.imgur.com/9YaQ2u2.png
2020-11-06 17:40:23 makeworld Go Mono looks kinda weird in the terminal idk
2020-11-06 17:40:42 makeworld It's nice though
2020-11-06 17:40:55 makeworld insep acdw
2020-11-06 17:41:13 ericonr the arduino form factor is freaking wonderful
2020-11-06 17:41:22 ddevault I kind of dig it makeworld
2020-11-06 17:41:36 ericonr and you can use arduino-cli for the toolchain and stuff
2020-11-06 17:41:47 ericonr even works on musl, if you dig out the ol' gcompat
2020-11-06 17:42:01 @tomasino ddevault: i liked your article
2020-11-06 17:42:15 @tomasino speaking of tools
2020-11-06 17:42:17 insep makeworld: no idea what's acdw, but wanna play a round of among-sus?
2020-11-06 17:42:21 insep ;)
2020-11-06 17:42:28 ddevault tomasino: usability vs utility?
2020-11-06 17:42:36 @tomasino yep
2020-11-06 17:42:38 ddevault nice
2020-11-06 17:42:40 ddevault thanks
2020-11-06 17:42:48 acdw makeworld: I like the go mono in the terminal!
2020-11-06 17:43:16 acdw insep: acdw <- it me -- i cannot play among-sus even though i'd like to b/c work
2020-11-06 17:43:19 acdw have fun tho
2020-11-06 17:43:36 insep oh
2020-11-06 17:43:42 acdw oh i haven't read that one yet
2020-11-06 17:43:42 makeworld Can't play rn sorry
2020-11-06 17:43:44 acdw baw
2020-11-06 17:43:49 acdw makeworld kinda sus
2020-11-06 17:44:01 makeworld It's cool in the terminal, I'm just not used to the level of serif I guess
2020-11-06 17:44:02 @tomasino sus+
2020-11-06 17:44:03 makeworld Lol
2020-11-06 17:44:05 kayw yep im kinda liking Go Mono too! It's a bit more stretched out than Iosevka, but overall not too bad
2020-11-06 17:44:09 insep i thought it's some sort of new slang i haven't heard of yet
2020-11-06 17:44:09 insep sorry
2020-11-06 17:44:15 insep that's kinda sus
2020-11-06 17:45:02 insep overall, open sans is my favorite font that i try to use anywhere but terminal
2020-11-06 17:45:28 acdw SERIF
2020-11-06 17:45:31 acdw serif++
2020-11-06 17:45:37 acdw oh wait this is gemini
2020-11-06 17:45:54 acdw open sans is aight
2020-11-06 17:45:55 @tomasino what's lagrange using?
2020-11-06 17:46:08 acdw gemini?? :P
2020-11-06 17:46:14 @tomasino :P
2020-11-06 17:46:16 @tomasino font wise, silly
2020-11-06 17:46:19 makeworld SDL
2020-11-06 17:46:24 @tomasino it's pretty nice
2020-11-06 17:46:36 insep russian
2020-11-06 17:47:07 @tomasino i'm back on firacode here in term at the moment. I'm not sure if i'll stay with it. I tend to prefer inconsolata or some others. But that's not gemini stuff
2020-11-06 17:47:54 makeworld Huh it does really look nice for Go code
2020-11-06 17:48:19 acdw fira code is nice
2020-11-06 17:48:20 ddevault check out rsc's tour of acme
2020-11-06 17:48:22 ddevault makeworld
2020-11-06 17:48:28 acdw on my laptop I've got Comic Sans ans Comic Sans mono
2020-11-06 17:48:33 acdw pretty great
2020-11-06 17:48:33 makeworld Link?
2020-11-06 17:48:42 ddevault https://duckduckgo.com
2020-11-06 17:49:06 insep makeworld: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dP1xVpMPn8M
2020-11-06 17:49:08 acdw oof
2020-11-06 17:49:16 makeworld Lol thanks everyone
2020-11-06 17:49:22 acdw you just got "let me google that for you"'d
2020-11-06 17:49:40 makeworld Shameful
2020-11-06 17:50:00 @tomasino :P
2020-11-06 17:50:26 @tomasino did anyone ever build that lmgtfy gemini thing?
2020-11-06 17:50:37 @tomasino (let me gus that for you)
2020-11-06 17:51:02 acdw lol
2020-11-06 17:51:03 acdw how'd that work
2020-11-06 17:51:09 @tomasino with a redirect
2020-11-06 17:51:20 @tomasino or a cgi that just has a single link?
2020-11-06 17:51:27 @tomasino based on the url you pass it?
2020-11-06 17:51:29 @tomasino ooooh
2020-11-06 17:51:30 @tomasino better
2020-11-06 17:51:31 ddevault or a gemtext lecture with aURL
2020-11-06 17:51:33 ddevault a URL*
2020-11-06 17:51:33 acdw so ... it'd be like "lmgtfy.com/thing" => gus.guru/search?thing
2020-11-06 17:51:35 acdw ?
2020-11-06 17:51:56 acdw that is better
2020-11-06 17:52:00 @tomasino or you go to lmgtfy.gempants.com and enter the url in a type 10, get back a short code
2020-11-06 17:52:07 @tomasino then you get a lecture with a link when you follow it
2020-11-06 17:52:21 acdw it's just not the same effect as lmgtfy
2020-11-06 17:52:37 @tomasino embarrasing link telling you to gus is still pretty good
2020-11-06 17:52:41 boringcactus i mean
2020-11-06 17:52:49 boringcactus you could just link directly to the gus result page
2020-11-06 17:52:52 acdw ^
2020-11-06 17:53:01 @tomasino but that doesn't ridicule you
2020-11-06 17:53:08 tane has quit (quit: Leaving)
2020-11-06 17:53:09 boringcactus it's a little bit less passive-aggressive and condescending, but. it's less passive-aggressive and condescending
2020-11-06 17:53:30 @tomasino see?
2020-11-06 17:53:31 @tomasino :D
2020-11-06 17:53:57 boringcactus i mean, if you wanna automate passive-aggression at scale, be my guest, i guess
2020-11-06 17:54:31 acdw lol
2020-11-06 17:54:40 acdw passive-aggression as a service (R)
2020-11-06 17:54:49 @tomasino brilliant
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2020-11-06 19:32:10 jan6 maan sir ddevaulŧ man worshipping plan 9 and dropping lines, what else did I miss, lol
2020-11-06 19:32:40 ddevault nice try
2020-11-06 19:32:51 ddevault I read this buffer
2020-11-06 19:36:05 weeb hey ddevault are you a weeb by any chance
2020-11-06 19:36:46 ddevault yes
2020-11-06 19:37:02 weeb nice
2020-11-06 19:44:08 alex11 has quit (Client exited)
2020-11-06 19:49:17 insep hey weeb are you ddеvault by any chance
2020-11-06 19:49:34 ▬▬▶ alex11 has joined #gemini
2020-11-06 19:52:13 ew0k Capcom and spacewalk collect capsules that update frequently, like gemlogs. What capsules are there to see that aren’t on either of those?
2020-11-06 19:56:36 ★ jan6 wants to make a better gemini that's not so hyper-fixated on the current philosophy, but is still tiny and line oriented
2020-11-06 19:56:40 jan6 but nowhere soon
2020-11-06 19:56:47 ★ jan6 off
2020-11-06 19:57:41 acdw ew0k: IDK
2020-11-06 19:57:58 acdw uh... click randomly around gus.guru's known server list?
2020-11-06 19:59:54 ▬▬▶ helby has joined #gemini
2020-11-06 20:00:01 kayw is it a good idea to have a robots.txt?
2020-11-06 20:00:22 acdw yes?
2020-11-06 20:00:25 acdw everyone does
2020-11-06 20:00:32 acdw I am ON IT with the ANSWERS today
2020-11-06 20:00:37 acdw so knowledgeable
2020-11-06 20:01:45 kayw oh, alright
2020-11-06 20:07:08 acdw I would say so
2020-11-06 20:07:10 weeb no insep
2020-11-06 20:07:12 weeb i am weeb
2020-11-06 20:07:28 insep sad
2020-11-06 20:09:28 acdw what is a weeb anyway? is it full-on body-pillow, or just a fan?
2020-11-06 20:09:45 weeb im a fan *refreshes u*
2020-11-06 20:10:03 acdw oh okay
2020-11-06 20:10:07 acdw i mean, i like anime
2020-11-06 20:10:15 acdw shit who don't
2020-11-06 20:10:58 helby I don't
2020-11-06 20:11:00 weeb watashi wa fan desu *kawaii-ly refreshes u*
2020-11-06 20:11:06 @ben i don't
2020-11-06 20:11:26 @ben closest i'll get is avatar the last airbender
2020-11-06 20:14:44 acdw oh fair enough helby
2020-11-06 20:14:49 acdw ben: avatar is anime
2020-11-06 20:14:57 acdw you like "Friends?" Friends is anime
2020-11-06 20:15:06 acdw Seinfeld? anime
2020-11-06 20:15:11 @ben the last time i said it was anime someone yelled at me
2020-11-06 20:15:14 @ben lol
2020-11-06 20:15:15 acdw Simpsons? Surprisingly, not anime
2020-11-06 20:15:17 acdw lol
2020-11-06 20:15:26 @ben ime anime fans are very obnoxious
2020-11-06 20:15:26 acdw i think it's a distinction that really doesn't matter all that much
2020-11-06 20:15:28 @ben lol
2020-11-06 20:15:36 acdw ime? is that a typo or a genre?
2020-11-06 20:15:37 @ben it does to some people
2020-11-06 20:15:42 acdw indeed it do
2020-11-06 20:15:43 @ben ime = in my experience
2020-11-06 20:15:45 acdw OH lol
2020-11-06 20:24:01 insep our life is one big anime and 2020 seasons were made by a-1 pictures
2020-11-06 20:24:37 helby remember when I first tried pleroma for fuck's sake
2020-11-06 20:24:45 helby before that I even did not know anime cult exist
2020-11-06 20:25:06 helby then just saw anime and cats everywhere ... then I left pleroma ;)
2020-11-06 20:25:27 acdw lol
2020-11-06 20:31:26 helby maybe soon there will be 'anime' protocol
2020-11-06 20:31:45 helby with 'cat' client
2020-11-06 20:33:37 acdw oh hell yea
2020-11-06 20:33:44 acdw dream it, achieve it helby
2020-11-06 20:33:45 epoch probably should named it "neko"
2020-11-06 20:34:08 epoch another program named cat is likely to cause problems :P
2020-11-06 20:34:39 acdw catgirl
2020-11-06 20:34:41 acdw oh wait
2020-11-06 20:34:46 acdw oh the client should be uwu
2020-11-06 20:34:50 acdw NO---the verbs should be uwu
2020-11-06 20:34:55 acdw uwu == get
2020-11-06 20:58:51 khuxkm which feed format should I use for my gemlog? atom? rss?
2020-11-06 20:58:59 khuxkm kinda tempted to do both
2020-11-06 20:59:31 @tomasino do eeet
2020-11-06 21:00:00 acdw both!
2020-11-06 21:00:06 acdw they're not that different from each other
2020-11-06 21:03:42 ddevault solderpunk was munching on a better idea
2020-11-06 21:04:11 ddevault basically just gemtext where the link text starts with an ISO 8601 date and a colon and the title of the link
2020-11-06 21:04:23 ddevault was briefly discussed on mastodon
2020-11-06 21:08:40 acdw was that solderpunk? I thought someone else mentioned that ---- but yeah, not a bad idea
2020-11-06 21:08:43 acdw honestly, all 3
2020-11-06 21:09:02 acdw tho i'd just do whitespace, since => and the link is whitespace
2020-11-06 21:09:12 acdw => DATE title
2020-11-06 21:12:26 ddevault yeah that seems fine
2020-11-06 21:13:49 acdw that'd be really easy to implement; i'm thinking when i get around to it i'll just ahve all 3
2020-11-06 21:13:59 acdw ddevault can i ask you a gmnisrv q? ok if no
2020-11-06 21:14:35 ddevault sure
2020-11-06 21:14:38 acdw so cgi -- it could be called like, "blog" ? then I could have example.com/blog/whatever.gmi and it could serve /blog.d/whatever.gmi?
2020-11-06 21:14:40 acdw right?
2020-11-06 21:14:40 ddevault won't promise an answer
2020-11-06 21:14:43 acdw haha
2020-11-06 21:15:01 ddevault yeah, something like that
2020-11-06 21:15:02 acdw i think so. i could also just check it out
2020-11-06 21:15:04 acdw awesome sauce
2020-11-06 21:15:05 ddevault the script name should be blog
2020-11-06 21:15:09 acdw right!
2020-11-06 21:15:13 ddevault and the root dir should have cgi enabled
2020-11-06 21:15:15 acdw and executable
2020-11-06 21:15:16 ddevault or = routed
2020-11-06 21:15:23 acdw oh yes, awesome sauce
2020-11-06 21:15:39 ddevault actually = routing doesn't work
2020-11-06 21:15:41 acdw okay cool. i had some confusino when playing with it the other day, but i think i've got it figured out now
2020-11-06 21:15:42 ddevault but : would work too
2020-11-06 21:16:13 acdw funny thing is, i think i'm going to fully CGI my gemini server while my HTTP server is mostly static
2020-11-06 21:16:19 acdw why not, right?
2020-11-06 21:16:24 acdw cool, well thanks :)
2020-11-06 21:16:32 ddevault np
2020-11-06 21:16:34 ddevault my site is mostly static
2020-11-06 21:17:26 acdw oh yes :) static is good -- since gemini is simpler i'm going to use it to learn more cgi type stuff
2020-11-06 21:18:09 ddevault sure
2020-11-06 21:21:41 acdw 'course, it might only be til i've finished with my awk server ;)
2020-11-06 21:22:20 ddevault awk is weak
2020-11-06 21:22:22 ddevault do one in brainfuck
2020-11-06 21:22:25 acdw haha
2020-11-06 21:22:35 acdw I'll be doing well enough to do one in awk, tbh
2020-11-06 21:22:37 raiz GET ENLIGHTENED!!!
2020-11-06 21:22:57 acdw of course, it's going to have an sh layer to handle the tls bits -- by which i mean a socat layer
2020-11-06 21:22:58 ddevault that is, unless you're chicken
2020-11-06 21:23:02 acdw b-cawk
2020-11-06 21:23:02 ★ ddevault flaps arms and makes chicken noises
2020-11-06 21:23:08 acdw bock-begawk
2020-11-06 21:23:08 acdw yes
2020-11-06 21:23:18 acdw call me Henrietta, b/c I am Chicken
2020-11-06 21:23:30 acdw co-co-co-co-co-co-COOOO
2020-11-06 21:23:38 acdw Name That TV Show
2020-11-06 21:27:23 ℹ __restrict is now known as kiedtl
2020-11-06 21:43:09 jcowan Henrietta! That's a cache!
2020-11-06 21:44:20 jcowan login: The best way to learn to pronounce "Gemini" is to look it up in a dictionary for your language. In English it is usually pronounced JEM-in-igh
2020-11-06 21:46:03 acdw THO ... acording to wikipedia, the astronaughts (what is this spelling? Im' leaving it) on the gemini project pronounced it "jemminy"
2020-11-06 21:46:10 acdw so... if that's what it's based on, ,,,
2020-11-06 21:51:31 login based on the horoscope sign right? gemini
2020-11-06 21:51:37 login i.e., twins
2020-11-06 21:52:04 jcowan yes
2020-11-06 21:52:22 jcowan Because the physical Gemini capsules held two astronauts, as opposed to Mercury with just one.
2020-11-06 21:52:34 jcowan "You don't fly a Mercury, you *wear* it."
2020-11-06 21:53:14 helby that info is crucial
2020-11-06 21:57:12 wangofett has quit (quit: WeeChat 2.8)
2020-11-06 21:57:37 acdw Gemini based on NASA< NASA based on Twins
2020-11-06 21:57:44 acdw lol jcowan
2020-11-06 21:58:27 jcowan So officially HTML+HTTP is Apollo, but I think it's more like the ISS.
2020-11-06 22:00:38 acdw yes
2020-11-06 22:00:48 acdw what's the space shuttle? bittorrent?
2020-11-06 22:02:05 raiz UFOs
2020-11-06 22:02:22 acdw yes
2020-11-06 22:02:26 raiz oh wait no
2020-11-06 22:02:28 raiz that's SSH
2020-11-06 22:02:32 raiz cause cryptic...
2020-11-06 22:03:01 raiz ballistic missiles for torrent
2020-11-06 22:03:20 ddevault bittorrent is more like nanobots
2020-11-06 22:03:30 login what is Mercury?
2020-11-06 22:03:51 ddevault or a ramscoop if you insist on spacecraft
2020-11-06 22:04:13 acdw solderpunk came up with a mercury protocol and everyone was like, no whyyyyy
2020-11-06 22:04:32 acdw also apparently mercury is : https://medium.com/mercuryprotocol
2020-11-06 22:04:35 login ah, so what is a physical Gemini capsule?
2020-11-06 22:04:59 acdw https://portal.mozz.us/gemini/gemini.circumlunar.space/users/solderpunk/gemlog/the-mercury-protocol.gmi
2020-11-06 22:05:07 acdw (or gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/users/solderpunk/gemlog/the-mercury-protocol.gmi if yr nasty)
2020-11-06 22:05:18 ddevault who the fuck links to a portal in the gemini IRC channel
2020-11-06 22:05:41 acdw apparently: https://ids.si.edu/ids/deliveryService?id=NASM-A19670209000-NASM2016-02694&max=900
2020-11-06 22:05:52 ★ acdw raises hand
2020-11-06 22:06:10 acdw i guess I should've flipped the "if yr nasty" bit tho
2020-11-06 22:06:14 acdw next time ;)
2020-11-06 22:07:30 nytpu login: physical gemini capsule: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/de/Gemini_7_in_orbit_-_GPN-2006-000035.jpg
2020-11-06 22:08:59 login ah
2020-11-06 22:10:39 nytpu speaking of which i've been meaning to mirror virtual agc's gemini archive on gemini
2020-11-06 22:10:41 nytpu https://www.ibiblio.org/apollo/Gemini.html
2020-11-06 22:10:48 nytpu and i'd also mirror the apollo stuff
2020-11-06 22:11:16 nytpu https://www.ibiblio.org/apollo/links.html#Gemini_spacecraft_computer
2020-11-06 22:11:19 acdw hell yes nytpu
2020-11-06 22:11:22 acdw that sounds aweosme
2020-11-06 22:12:00 acdw now i'm thinking i should try redesigning my cottage ascii art to look more like a gemini capsule repurposed to be lived in
2020-11-06 22:12:04 acdw that might be a toughy
2020-11-06 22:19:07 kayw If i say the content on my gemini site is cc-by-sa, can I just say it on the index, or does it have to be said on all pages?
2020-11-06 22:20:16 acdw hm that's a lawyer question
2020-11-06 22:20:28 acdw it might depend on your jurisdiction
2020-11-06 22:27:54 nytpu on mine i just have it on my about page and index
2020-11-06 22:28:39 nytpu the thing is, if they can't determine the license it's implied to be no rights granted, so it's not like you'd suddenly be releasing all your content into the public domain or something
2020-11-06 22:29:03 nytpu in the u.s. and western europe at least
2020-11-06 22:29:40 acdw ^
2020-11-06 22:29:45 acdw I have mine as a footer on all pages
2020-11-06 22:32:08 nytpu i really should put it on all pages, i already have a footer anyways
2020-11-06 22:38:54 nytpu i was looking up some ascii art for inspiration on a gemini capsule and i always forget how good ascii art can be sometimes
2020-11-06 22:38:56 nytpu https://ttm.sh/dtd.txt
2020-11-06 22:40:53 nihilazo has quit (quit: WeeChat 2.9)
2020-11-06 22:42:26 acdw oh that's dope
2020-11-06 22:42:28 acdw i love ascii art
2020-11-06 22:51:58 fleeky has quit (Ping timeout: 120 seconds)
2020-11-06 23:02:50 ddevault I have it on the footer but it's fine if you just put it on the index
2020-11-06 23:13:59 helby yes, bc. everybody who visit your site really care what you type in a footer or what license u attribute to that nonsense
2020-11-06 23:17:03 acdw dam ok
2020-11-06 23:17:23 makeworld Damn that is nice
2020-11-06 23:17:33 makeworld The ascii art I mean lol
2020-11-06 23:17:39 acdw lol
2020-11-06 23:17:47 makeworld Although I feel like Unicode art remains a mostly untapped market
2020-11-06 23:17:52 acdw lol true
2020-11-06 23:18:25 helby some art is really nice
2020-11-06 23:18:37 helby don't forget to check license ;)
2020-11-06 23:19:41 ddevault chill helby
2020-11-06 23:20:29 helby trying ;)
2020-11-06 23:21:36 helby just disturbed little bit always when heard about licensing, copyright and other crap
2020-11-06 23:23:02 ddevault why
2020-11-06 23:26:10 nytpu my "ascii art" tends to get code page 437-y becuase i love the box-drawing chars
2020-11-06 23:27:17 nytpu helby: and i don't like copyright either, but that means it's ultra important for me to license everything properly so it can be used freely *without* shitty copyright restrictions
2020-11-06 23:27:28 acdw ^
2020-11-06 23:27:33 acdw box-drawing++
2020-11-06 23:27:44 acdw what license do you use nytpu?
2020-11-06 23:27:46 helby bc. it's nonsense that somebody share some thoughts, then try to force somebody else how he can/can't use it
2020-11-06 23:28:09 nytpu cc by-sa
2020-11-06 23:28:41 acdw that's a good one
2020-11-06 23:28:52 acdw i like WTFPL for the memes but it's not good so i hear
2020-11-06 23:28:56 nytpu i used to be really unlicense/wtfpl but i started drifting towards copyleft becuase i don't like the idea of people taking my freely given stuff and making nonfree derivatives
2020-11-06 23:29:03 makeworld ^
2020-11-06 23:29:06 acdw helby: I mean, yeah, but the law doesn't work that way
2020-11-06 23:29:09 acdw and it's bigger than us
2020-11-06 23:29:13 acdw also, fair point nytpu
2020-11-06 23:29:38 makeworld helby: Ideally yes, but I'd rather make things free for everyone but companies rather than have companies potentially steal it and then no one can use it
2020-11-06 23:30:12 acdw ^
2020-11-06 23:30:23 helby oh u think these companies want something from u or give a shit about your licence? ;)
2020-11-06 23:30:26 acdw I've recently heard that the non-commercial clause is pretty bunk
2020-11-06 23:31:19 acdw helby: first, if it's totally unlicensed (as in, no license at all), in a lot of jurisdictions it's assumed that All Rights are Reserved. If you want people to use your stuff in their projects, you have to license it
2020-11-06 23:31:45 acdw second, whether companies care or not, a proper license gives you, the author, legal recourse in case they don't care
2020-11-06 23:31:58 acdw like, it's not a lot, but it's literally the onlything us little people have
2020-11-06 23:32:00 ddevault the reason I brought up licensing on the mailing list is not because for the purpose of corporate exploitation
2020-11-06 23:32:14 ddevault I was hypothesizing a client which used latex to render gemini sites as a newspaper
2020-11-06 23:32:23 ddevault and realized that copyright might be an issue in the distribution of that
2020-11-06 23:32:29 @tomasino it would indeed
2020-11-06 23:32:33 ddevault s/because//
2020-11-06 23:33:17 acdw why so? is latex gpl or something?
2020-11-06 23:33:25 acdw oh no, it's redistributing
2020-11-06 23:33:26 acdw i got ther
2020-11-06 23:34:10 ddevault since that discussion arose, a number of gemini sites have adopted a license which would permit this
2020-11-06 23:34:28 ddevault and if someone went through with some kind of "gemini weekly" publication, it would provide a nice social pressure to get more sites to do so
2020-11-06 23:34:46 ddevault the "client is entirely responsible for presentation" approach of gemini lends itself to some interesting novel use-cases like that
2020-11-06 23:35:28 helby gemini newspaper can be cool :)
2020-11-06 23:36:12 nytpu i use this thing called goosepaper to deliver a "newspaper" to my kindle (yes, i know, i know)
2020-11-06 23:36:14 nytpu https://github.com/j6k4m8/goosepaper
2020-11-06 23:36:22 nytpu and now i'm thinking i should adapt it to gemini
2020-11-06 23:36:23 boringcactus nytpu if you want the spirit of the JSON License with the tone of the WTFPL there's always https://sr.ht/~boringcactus/fafol/
2020-11-06 23:37:34 boringcactus it. may or may not be a thing worth wanting, but it does exist
2020-11-06 23:37:51 makeworld ddevault: Nice idea
2020-11-06 23:38:52 ddevault in fact, I'm looking for a weekend project
2020-11-06 23:38:56 ddevault maybe I'll put this together
2020-11-06 23:39:06 zephryn sounds like a pretty interesting idea
2020-11-06 23:39:24 ddevault is the capcom list of feeds publically available?
2020-11-06 23:40:07 ★ ddevault emails solderpunk
2020-11-06 23:41:57 nytpu i'd just use gus' list of known feets
2020-11-06 23:42:01 nytpu s/feets/feeds/
2020-11-06 23:42:10 nytpu i'm pretty sure capcom has almost all of those
2020-11-06 23:44:59 makeworld It's not ddevault, but easily could be. But yeah I'd just check GUS
2020-11-06 23:45:26 makeworld GUS will also pick up RSS feeds iirc, while CAPCOM only does Atom
2020-11-06 23:45:54 makeworld You could also check out Spacewalk, for the people who are too poor to have feeds
2020-11-06 23:46:22 ddevault it wouldn't be totally hands off anyway, such a publication would benefit from editorialization
2020-11-06 23:47:22 acdw ddevault: that is a dope af idea
2020-11-06 23:47:27 makeworld Yeah definitely
2020-11-06 23:47:37 acdw i might be interested in trying to do something like that
2020-11-06 23:47:53 acdw boringcactus: loving that license name
2020-11-06 23:48:08 makeworld Maybe do gemini to md with some script, and then md to latex with pandoc?
2020-11-06 23:48:12 ddevault lol no
2020-11-06 23:48:15 ddevault I'd just do gemtext to latex
2020-11-06 23:48:21 acdw that is one thing --- hwo to do links?
2020-11-06 23:48:24 makeworld Yeah I figured there would be a better way
2020-11-06 23:48:31 makeworld With a pandoc filter maybe?
2020-11-06 23:48:37 makeworld Or just a script and no pandoc lol
2020-11-06 23:48:39 ddevault I have zero desire to involve pandoc
2020-11-06 23:48:43 makeworld Haha okay gotcha
2020-11-06 23:48:46 ddevault why would it be "better" to add more steps and layers of indirection
2020-11-06 23:48:56 ddevault anyway, I'll see if I can't make up some nice latex for a template
2020-11-06 23:49:02 makeworld What if we convert to pdf first and then scan it and then OCR
2020-11-06 23:49:05 boringcactus i don't know if you can make ad hoc readers in pandoc like you can writers
2020-11-06 23:49:21 makeworld And use AI OCR for better conversion on bad scanners
2020-11-06 23:49:28 acdw okay, so gemtext -> html -> pandoc -> markdown -> john gruber's markdown.pl -> html -> that one program that turns html into pdf
2020-11-06 23:49:37 makeworld Perfect
2020-11-06 23:49:45 acdw :D
2020-11-06 23:49:50 makeworld As long "that one program" is the holy pandoc, once again
2020-11-06 23:49:51 boringcactus -> svg -> html -> different html to pdf program
2020-11-06 23:49:56 makeworld Oh no
2020-11-06 23:50:03 ddevault don't forget to print out the PDF and scan it back in a few times
2020-11-06 23:50:10 ddevault ideally putting it in a spiral notebook, then tearing the pages out first
2020-11-06 23:50:24 makeworld The digital equivalent of barrel aging
2020-11-06 23:50:36 boringcactus art installation that's just a printer feeding into a scanner feeding into a printer feeding into a scanner
2020-11-06 23:50:54 makeworld Actually sounds intersting
2020-11-06 23:51:08 makeworld Maybe for a conf, so you could see it degrade over a couple days
2020-11-06 23:51:38 acdw no makeworld, htat'd be silly. you can't ahve 2 invocations in the same pipeline
2020-11-06 23:51:52 makeworld Ah, my bad :P
2020-11-06 23:51:54 acdw omg @ "The digital equivalent of barrel aging"
2020-11-06 23:52:10 acdw it's called .like, wkhtml or soemthing?
2020-11-06 23:52:15 boringcactus wkhtmltopdf, yeah
2020-11-06 23:52:20 acdw that's it!
2020-11-06 23:52:21 boringcactus there's also weasyprint
2020-11-06 23:52:28 acdw it like, prints out the page into a pdf, preserving styling
2020-11-06 23:52:29 acdw sortof
2020-11-06 23:52:34 boringcactus i am, unfortunately, very familiar with those
2020-11-06 23:52:41 acdw last time i used it (8, 10 eyars ago?) it was really really bad
2020-11-06 23:52:44 acdw sounds like it still is
2020-11-06 23:52:58 boringcactus for a while the Crowbar spec was a pile of markdown being translated into PDF and gemtext one file at a time by Pandoc
2020-11-06 23:53:06 ddevault dunno why people are afraid of latex
2020-11-06 23:53:09 ddevault it's obviously the tool for this job
2020-11-06 23:53:20 boringcactus now it is a pile of reStructuredText being translated into HTML and PDF and gemtext by Sphinx
2020-11-06 23:53:23 makeworld It's just very verbose
2020-11-06 23:53:37 boringcactus show me a good latex->html exporter and i'll. thank you
2020-11-06 23:53:37 ddevault it's really not
2020-11-06 23:53:43 @ben pandoc
2020-11-06 23:53:49 ddevault why is html involved here
2020-11-06 23:53:49 makeworld boringcactus: Is pandoc not good? ;)
2020-11-06 23:53:56 boringcactus i want an html version of my specc
2020-11-06 23:54:01 ddevault pandoc is hot garbage, like I want to install 3G of broken haskell
2020-11-06 23:54:04 boringcactus because that's way more amenable to browsing
2020-11-06 23:54:12 makeworld Just install the statically linked version
2020-11-06 23:54:30 makeworld It's just a lot of distros that screw it up by making all its deps a pkg or something stupid
2020-11-06 23:54:32 ddevault boringcactus: htlatex
2020-11-06 23:54:41 makeworld Pandoc can be a single small binary if you want
2020-11-06 23:54:45 boringcactus i think i had trouble getting that working
2020-11-06 23:54:55 ddevault as if I want to install any amount of broken haskell*
2020-11-06 23:55:01 nytpu i remember when arch decided that dynamically linking haskell was the most fucking genius idea in the world and tried to get me to install 2gb of haskell crap that i don't use
2020-11-06 23:55:03 boringcactus idk, i'm already doing the thing i'm doing, and it doesn't suck and cross-references work
2020-11-06 23:55:11 ddevault in any case, who cares about the spec being html
2020-11-06 23:55:19 ddevault PDFs are totally fine for that purpose
2020-11-06 23:55:26 boringcactus i do
2020-11-06 23:55:34 acdw latex++
2020-11-06 23:55:43 nytpu yeah latex is superior
2020-11-06 23:56:12 ddevault you do, but not for any articulatble reasons, it seems
2020-11-06 23:56:21 ddevault just because html has wormed a hole into your brain
2020-11-06 23:56:23 acdw i'm gonna have to disagree re pandoc, it's dope, it does so much, but for this job ----- gmi-> latex is easiest for sure
2020-11-06 23:56:38 nytpu statically linked pandoc is fine
2020-11-06 23:56:51 acdw has quit (quit: https://web.tilde.chat - thelounge)
2020-11-06 23:56:52 boringcactus oh the holes in my brain were there way before html got to me
2020-11-06 23:57:29 makeworld I haven't used pandoc extensively, but I consider it pretty handy software
2020-11-06 23:57:38 makeworld But anyway it's irrelevant here yeah
2020-11-06 23:57:53 makeworld Looking forward to the project drew!
2020-11-06 23:58:08 ℹ cyberia is now known as spideria
2020-11-06 23:58:09 boringcactus sometimes you need the ffmpeg of documents, sometimes you don't
2020-11-06 23:58:28 boringcactus and just like with ffmpeg, doing anything nontrivial with it is painful
2020-11-06 23:58:37 boringcactus and requires lots of documentation round trips
2020-11-06 23:58:37 ericonr I'm just afraid pandoc will break on me
2020-11-06 23:58:53 ericonr someday stack won't compile stuff anymore, and then pandoc won't ever work again
2020-11-06 23:58:55 makeworld Haha ffmpeg really is like that
2020-11-06 23:59:00 makeworld Constantly looking up commands
2020-11-07 00:01:33 boringcactus you can* do anything**
2020-11-07 00:01:45 boringcactus *it'll be difficult
2020-11-07 00:01:55 boringcactus **some stuff will still require a more powerful tool
2020-11-07 00:02:42 boringcactus like. trying to get cross-references working smoothly with just markdown and pandoc? i'm good thanks
2020-11-07 00:05:43 nytpu i remember pandoc struggling to do something so "nontrivial" as using a font size that isn't 10, 11, or 12
2020-11-07 00:06:23 boringcactus and ddevault one of the things i (probably) can't do with a pdf is link from somewhere else directly to a specific language element
2020-11-07 00:06:45 boringcactus like https://crowbar-lang.org/language/type-definition.html#element-OpaqueStructDefinition
2020-11-07 00:07:18 ddevault number your sections
2020-11-07 00:07:32 boringcactus i'm doing that, for some value of "sections"
2020-11-07 00:07:50 boringcactus but <link to pdf> "as you'll see in section 3.6.2" is
2020-11-07 00:07:55 boringcactus slower than that
2020-11-07 00:08:12 boringcactus a link and you're there vs a link and some scrolling and you're there
2020-11-07 00:09:51 boringcactus but yeah, more on-topic-fully, the bad hacked-together Lua it took to get pandoc to spit out gemtext is probably about as bad as the bad hacked-together Python it took to get sphinx to spit out gemtext,
2020-11-07 00:09:56 boringcactus but. i actually know Python
2020-11-07 00:11:01 boringcactus both of them are built around hierarchical documents, though, and gemini is purposefully not hierarchical, so it'll always be some form of not-how-that's-supposed-to-work
2020-11-07 00:12:36 helby this discussion forcing me to check gopher again ;)
2020-11-07 00:15:13 makeworld boringcactus: You can do Python filters with pandoc using panflute
2020-11-07 00:15:20 makeworld https://github.com/sergiocorreia/panflute
2020-11-07 00:15:40 boringcactus yeah, if i had tried hard and believed in myself i could've put together more infrastructure on top of pandoc
2020-11-07 00:15:54 boringcactus but there's only so much you can do before it makes sense to just use a tool that's actually better for the job
2020-11-07 00:16:17 boringcactus like. Sphinx is built to handle highly cross-referential documentation
2020-11-07 00:41:31 ★ Seirdy uses md2gemini as a start, but then re-formats and edits the content a bit to flow better
2020-11-07 00:41:52 Seirdy some areas need to be re-worded because of the lack of linline links
2020-11-07 00:42:13 Seirdy s/li//
2020-11-07 00:46:20 makeworld Would be happy to improve md2gemini if there's a specific thing to improve :)
2020-11-07 00:46:40 makeworld Or at least file an issue and get to it at some point ha
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2020-11-07 01:08:40 ddevault gemini://drewdevault.com/weekly.pdf
2020-11-07 01:08:46 ddevault initial pass at formatting my latest gemini article for print
2020-11-07 01:08:59 kayw not found :/
2020-11-07 01:09:41 ddevault trya gain
2020-11-07 01:09:43 ddevault try again*
2020-11-07 01:09:47 kayw there we go
2020-11-07 01:12:21 ddevault somewhat improved version pushed
2020-11-07 01:13:52 kayw wow that looks hella nice
2020-11-07 01:15:16 ddevault this is the "article" template, will try my hand at something more lettors-to-the-editor-esque for gemlogs tomorrow
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2020-11-07 01:27:40 raiz just a quick question... since gemini requests should have absolute url, do you guys implement relative path translation on the client side, have a non-standard extension on the server side?
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2020-11-07 01:29:30 boringcactus afaik that's usually the client's job
2020-11-07 01:29:54 raiz another question came to mind...
2020-11-07 01:30:56 ericonr raiz: before I implemented path resolution in my client I got a lot of servers telling me off for invalid urls
2020-11-07 01:31:08 raiz if you have a server that handles multiple domains, do you do it the HTTP way of reading the connection address or do you read the gemini request and know what domain to route to
2020-11-07 01:31:26 raiz what would be the proper way to do it here?
2020-11-07 01:34:02 boringcactus the connection address doesn't tell you anything
2020-11-07 01:34:23 boringcactus if your server handles multiple domains, they're probably all connecting to the same address
2020-11-07 01:34:29 raiz indeed
2020-11-07 01:34:30 boringcactus and if not, that's. an unorthodox setup
2020-11-07 01:34:41 boringcactus so you can lift the host from the url
2020-11-07 01:35:13 raiz there's way to tell what domain the accepted connection used from the server side
2020-11-07 01:35:25 raiz I don't know what the proper terminology here is
2020-11-07 01:35:55 ★ raiz reads accept(2) manpage
2020-11-07 01:36:58 ddevault domain or IP?
2020-11-07 01:37:09 ddevault domain would require a reverse DNS lookup
2020-11-07 01:37:21 raiz oh yeah, its in the sockaddr struct
2020-11-07 01:37:44 raiz no?
2020-11-07 01:37:56 ddevault yes
2020-11-07 01:39:12 raiz I'll figure it out when I start working on that part :-)
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2020-11-07 01:42:41 raiz oh wait... forgot my initial question... so how do you suggest I do it, on socket layer or protocol layer?
2020-11-07 01:43:29 ddevault I require SNI
2020-11-07 01:43:34 ddevault and disconnect clients which don't offer it
2020-11-07 01:44:00 raiz based
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2020-11-07 02:27:14 makeworld ddevault: Looks not bad! I think having the arrow indented (for the xkcd link) would be good
2020-11-07 02:27:25 makeworld So it's not in the column margin
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2020-11-07 04:26:25 jcowan What would be a good heuristic for figuring out if a file is text/gemini? I've asked on the ML too.
2020-11-07 04:27:38 bie jcowan: i was thinking about that the other day but couldn't really come up with anything... checking for a /^=> etc/ was the closest i got :x
2020-11-07 04:28:39 raiz how do they do it for markdown?
2020-11-07 04:28:45 ★ jcowan checks
2020-11-07 04:28:49 raiz if they don't then we don't, lol
2020-11-07 04:28:59 raiz fwiw gemtext is just plaintext
2020-11-07 04:29:12 raiz can be problematic for servers auto generating mime headers
2020-11-07 04:29:23 jcowan No support for markdown
2020-11-07 04:29:23 raiz but that would be worked around if necessary
2020-11-07 04:30:09 jcowan It can only be probabilistic, because every plain text file is valid text/gemini.
2020-11-07 04:30:51 raiz but not every plain text file is reasonable gemtext
2020-11-07 04:31:01 raiz it can be misinterpreted
2020-11-07 04:31:23 raiz you could use file extensions
2020-11-07 04:31:27 bie for my server i ended up using the extension to decide whether to serve text/plain or text/gemini
2020-11-07 04:31:29 raiz that's as far as it goes
2020-11-07 04:31:35 bie for everything else i use the mime type
2020-11-07 04:31:43 bie uh i mean...
2020-11-07 04:31:49 bie 1. libmagic checks the file
2020-11-07 04:32:08 bie 2. if it's text/plain check the extension, otherwise just use the mime type from libmagic
2020-11-07 04:32:27 raiz yeah, that's decent
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2020-11-07 04:39:57 bie i was going to figure out the ipv4 problems with my gemini server today, but the nice weather is calling to me *goes outside*
2020-11-07 04:40:33 jcowan Alternatively, check the extension first, and use libmagic if you don't recognize it or there is none. In other words, cheapest first.
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2020-11-07 04:58:07 khuxkm honestly, I don't see what's so bad about just using the extension if it's there
2020-11-07 04:58:26 khuxkm the only place I see that being an issue is .cgi, and CGI scripts can specify their own mimetype
2020-11-07 05:10:10 jcowan Nothing. But not all extensions will be in the server's table, and not all files will have extensions.
2020-11-07 05:33:38 raiz I've noticed sending a request of "gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space" to gemini.circumlunar.space returns "31 gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/", notice I didn't include the leading '/', is that behavior considered common? can I handle no leading slash as if it's there all along in my implementation?
2020-11-07 05:34:08 raiz so instead of a redirect, a request without leading slash is treated as if it had a leading slash
2020-11-07 05:34:26 raiz has anyone done that in their implementation?
2020-11-07 05:39:18 khuxkm raiz: well it's in gemini-diagnostics that you should do so (though it's more descriptive and less prescriptive
2020-11-07 05:39:21 khuxkm )
2020-11-07 05:39:53 raiz what gemini-diagnostics?
2020-11-07 05:43:23 raiz actually, nvm, the redirect makes sense, there should be an explicit path
2020-11-07 05:43:28 khuxkm formerly jetforce-diagnostics
2020-11-07 05:43:38 khuxkm https://github.com/michael-lazar/gemini-diagnostics
2020-11-07 05:44:35 raiz sounds good
2020-11-07 05:44:45 raiz there's so much torture in gemini space
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2020-11-07 06:13:12 wingy Has anyone made an extension to allow Gemini support in Firefox yet?
2020-11-07 06:13:37 wingy more specifically waterfox because it supports XUL and custom protocols
2020-11-07 06:31:38 low-key i do keep thinking about how handy it would be to have gemini support on firefox
2020-11-07 06:31:54 low-key raiz: what do you mean by torture in geminispace?
2020-11-07 06:43:45 raiz gemini://gemini.conman.org/test/torture/ <-- this
2020-11-07 06:43:51 raiz https://github.com/michael-lazar/gemini-diagnostics <-- and this
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2020-11-07 12:55:32 low-key are you not supposed to update your files while gmnisrv is running?
2020-11-07 12:55:58 low-key updated my index.gmi and then tried accessing it from a browser which said it couldn't establish a connection
2020-11-07 12:56:09 low-key so checked in on gmnisrv and it had stopped
2020-11-07 13:38:15 bie low-key: i haven't used gmiserv, but i can't imagine updating your files while it's running should be a problem
2020-11-07 13:38:25 bie low-key: anything in your logs about how it died
2020-11-07 13:46:16 low-key I didn't check.
2020-11-07 13:46:19 low-key 🙈
2020-11-07 14:12:56 aravk was the discussion about a print newspaper of atom/rss feeds here?
2020-11-07 14:28:23 ew0k aravk: I don’t know, but now I’m curious :D
2020-11-07 14:28:40 ddevault aravk: yes
2020-11-07 14:29:58 ew0k ddevault: how far back do I have to scroll? :)
2020-11-07 14:30:47 ddevault last night
2020-11-07 14:31:01 ddevault or you could just look at what I came up with so far: gemini://drewdevault.com/weekly.pdf
2020-11-07 14:38:53 aravk ^ that looks awesome
2020-11-07 14:39:40 aravk I want to be able to hold something like that in my hand every morning but at the same time it feels like a huge waste of paper
2020-11-07 14:44:46 ddevault could use an e-ink reader
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2020-11-07 14:53:44 aravk oh yeah, I have my kindle. Haven't used it in forever
2020-11-07 14:56:59 ddevault typeset another article: gemini://drewdevault.com/weekly.pdf
2020-11-07 14:57:09 ddevault doing it by hand but trying to limit it to stuff I could teach a program to do
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2020-11-07 14:58:38 ddevault whoops, forgot to enter SSH password. It's up now
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2020-11-07 15:09:37 low-key Ariane just gives a success/application pdf toast notification
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2020-11-07 15:14:39 low-key Does anyone have a binary of gmni?
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2020-11-07 15:14:58 ddevault why? it takes like 2 seconds to compile from source
2020-11-07 15:18:12 ddevault well, here you go: gemini://drewdevault.com/gmni
2020-11-07 15:18:23 low-key Thanks 🙈
2020-11-07 15:18:30 low-key Because it wasn't compiling on my phone
2020-11-07 15:18:40 low-key I did ssh into my vps to build it though
2020-11-07 15:18:55 ddevault well, hold on, my nets are being shit again
2020-11-07 15:19:12 ddevault you'd think that we'd have working mobile internet in 2020
2020-11-07 15:19:19 low-key Hear hear
2020-11-07 15:19:31 low-key Mine keeps completely disconnecting every 20 or so minutes
2020-11-07 15:20:25 ddevault okay, it's uploaded
2020-11-07 15:20:38 low-key So the recommended way to grab that pdf is to just use gmni with that url, right?
2020-11-07 15:21:00 low-key Or should I be redirecting?
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2020-11-07 15:22:10 acdw morning
2020-11-07 15:22:33 ddevault that
2020-11-07 15:22:37 ddevault that's* one way, sure
2020-11-07 15:24:29 low-key Morning acdw!
2020-11-07 15:24:36 ew0k Now I suddenly wanna build a read-only fuse filesystem over gemini...
2020-11-07 15:25:07 acdw hey low-key !
2020-11-07 15:25:33 ew0k Any gmi document with links can be treated as a directory...
2020-11-07 15:26:43 low-key how so?
2020-11-07 15:26:54 acdw ddevault: i wonder if you could also do a epub...
2020-11-07 15:27:04 ★ acdw looks to see if you can epub with latex
2020-11-07 15:27:26 low-key ah, amfora has a very nice flow for downloads
2020-11-07 15:27:32 low-key that thing doesn't cease to impress
2020-11-07 15:28:48 acdw amfora++
2020-11-07 15:29:45 low-key ddevault: that pdf is so well made!
2020-11-07 15:30:50 ddevault thanks :) still have some work to do though
2020-11-07 15:36:00 ew0k acdw: pandoc can do it
2020-11-07 15:36:54 ddevault it would be smarter to just write a separate tool for preparing epubs
2020-11-07 15:37:36 acdw ew0k: lolol
2020-11-07 15:37:54 acdw oh ooof it's xhtml, right
2020-11-07 15:37:56 acdw bleh
2020-11-07 15:41:40 acdw ddevault: looking at the second pdf -- the one thing is the 2-column layout split up by the ASCII art becomes confusing as to wether it's across, then down or down then across
2020-11-07 15:41:58 ddevault not sure how to improve that
2020-11-07 15:42:06 ddevault though the latter would be significantly more difficult to pull off in latex
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2020-11-07 15:45:29 acdw yeah, it's just confusing which way it goes. i realized it's across then down, which i like --- and the full-width image makes the most sense for dispaly
2020-11-07 15:45:35 acdw maybe a horizontal line after it?
2020-11-07 15:45:39 acdw or ... hm
2020-11-07 15:45:42 acdw tricky
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2020-11-07 15:47:30 xfnw hi breadw
2020-11-07 15:48:24 breadw hi
2020-11-07 15:51:32 ℹ breadw is now known as acdw
2020-11-07 15:51:59 thefunkyspaw Hi ddevault , I love your blog!
2020-11-07 15:52:50 low-key since i finally found you here, ddevault I too would like to state for posterity that I love your blog and you are an inspiration
2020-11-07 15:54:54 ddevault thanks!
2020-11-07 15:55:01 ddevault glad you two enjoy it
2020-11-07 15:57:04 ew0k gemini://tilde.team/~ew0k/gemini-and-post-part2.gmi
2020-11-07 15:57:45 acdw awesome ew0k ! afaict, Titan is POST and Dioscuri is PUT
2020-11-07 15:58:42 ew0k acdw: there's a difference in HTTP, but is there a difference in this case?
2020-11-07 15:58:56 acdw yes, actually the creator of dioscuri told me that was the diff
2020-11-07 15:59:11 acdw hold on, lemme find the references
2020-11-07 16:02:19 acdw bah, i can't find it. but yea -- tbh i didn't realize there was a diff b/w POST and PUT, so I thought Titan and Dioscuri were doing the same thing
2020-11-07 16:02:22 acdw apparently that's not the case
2020-11-07 16:07:38 ew0k I can’t recall the difference in http now... would have to look that up
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2020-11-07 16:10:34 acdw yeah i got no clue
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2020-11-07 16:10:45 acdw i'm not what you'd call .... *good* at http
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2020-11-07 16:32:34 makeworld low-key: Thanks! You mean like the progress bar?
2020-11-07 16:32:44 makeworld It's a little hacky in the background... don't tell anyone!
2020-11-07 16:33:26 makeworld > looking at the second pdf
2020-11-07 16:33:48 makeworld ddevault: Can you send a link to this other PDF? I was offline I think, I only saw weekly.pdf
2020-11-07 16:34:29 ddevault I have been updating the same file
2020-11-07 16:34:31 ddevault just re-download it
2020-11-07 16:34:33 makeworld I still think that indenting the arrows would be a good idea so it's not in between the columns
2020-11-07 16:34:34 makeworld Ah ok
2020-11-07 16:34:50 ddevault I disagree
2020-11-07 16:34:52 ddevault the arrows are deliberate
2020-11-07 16:35:32 makeworld Yes they're deliberate, I just don't like how they are in between columns instead of at the same indentation level as the column text
2020-11-07 16:35:36 makeworld A minor thing, though
2020-11-07 16:37:25 makeworld I'm excited to get to poke around with your latex and code once you upload it, I haven't used latex in a while
2020-11-07 16:38:55 ddevault here's the wip https://git.sr.ht/~sircmpwn/gemini-weekly
2020-11-07 16:39:27 makeworld Oh great!
2020-11-07 16:41:31 makeworld Oh I see, you've converted your articles manually for now
2020-11-07 16:42:24 ddevault yeah
2020-11-07 16:42:29 ddevault limited to changes which could be automated in theory, though
2020-11-07 16:42:33 ddevault just trying to get the latex work done
2020-11-07 16:43:16 makeworld Yeah that makes sense
2020-11-07 16:43:44 acdw you're doing pure TeX?
2020-11-07 16:43:50 makeworld Translation doesn't look tooo hard
2020-11-07 16:44:00 makeworld acdw: No he's not
2020-11-07 16:44:03 acdw oh okay
2020-11-07 16:44:20 acdw it has been a *long* time since I did TeX / LaTeX
2020-11-07 16:44:25 makeworld It's just .tex files cause that's the extension people use I think
2020-11-07 16:44:29 acdw forgot the extensions
2020-11-07 16:44:49 acdw yeah,, u right :P --- I think *some* people use .ltx or .latex, but that's rare
2020-11-07 16:45:50 acdw but yeah it'd be super simple to convert these
2020-11-07 16:46:43 ddevault the only main issue I'm looking at right now is deciding how tall to make the minipages if I have to split a code block out of the multi-column lyaout
2020-11-07 16:46:45 ddevault layout*
2020-11-07 16:46:58 ddevault I'll probably either estimate it by wordcount or try to do some fancy math in latex
2020-11-07 16:47:32 ddevault the other thing is to decide how many columns to use based on the width of things like URLs
2020-11-07 16:47:48 ddevault and I'm going to do another layout for putting a bunch of shorter microblogs on one page
2020-11-07 16:48:55 acdw multiple layouts si a good idea. looks like you're using letter paper? I wonder if this'd be better for bigger/different sized paper
2020-11-07 16:49:09 acdw OR --- 1/2 page, for folding
2020-11-07 16:49:30 acdw re: code block: possibly references, and have them at the end? idk
2020-11-07 16:50:00 ddevault letter paper is probably better for broader compatibility with viewing mediums
2020-11-07 16:50:17 ddevault but I could also offer multiple configurable layouts
2020-11-07 16:51:08 acdw fair point -- and yes, if possible that'd be dope af
2020-11-07 16:51:57 acdw honestly I like your source article formats -- if somebody wants to tweak their layout they could just take those and write their own latex class/shell docuemnt to include them all
2020-11-07 16:52:36 acdw and like, redefine `gemurl` and `attrib` or whatev
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2020-11-07 16:53:15 ddevault right
2020-11-07 16:53:50 makeworld I think doing half of US Letter would be nice
2020-11-07 16:53:58 makeworld Like a tall zine format
2020-11-07 16:54:34 ddevault would make it easier to print it out, fold it and staple it
2020-11-07 16:56:03 makeworld Yeah exactly
2020-11-07 16:56:22 ddevault will think about it
2020-11-07 16:56:28 ddevault would also be a bit more difficult to lay out
2020-11-07 16:56:29 makeworld Although for that you'd need two different formats I guess. One for reading with the page in order, and one for printing that does the zine page layout
2020-11-07 16:56:34 makeworld Yeah
2020-11-07 16:56:40 ddevault and would not fit that code block I have there
2020-11-07 16:57:31 acdw you'd have to like, scale that down
2020-11-07 16:57:39 acdw which i think would be a pain in the ass
2020-11-07 16:57:47 ddevault it would be a major pain in the ass
2020-11-07 16:57:54 ddevault my current plan is to focus on a magazine-style publication
2020-11-07 16:57:55 acdw from what I remember of doing latex .. 8 years ago, math for pages is also a pain in the ass
2020-11-07 16:58:02 ddevault I think the length of the typical gemini post serves that better
2020-11-07 16:58:17 acdw makes sense
2020-11-07 16:58:17 ddevault and I don't expect anyone to actually print these
2020-11-07 16:58:26 acdw well that's where you're wrong :P
2020-11-07 16:58:35 acdw i'm gonna print these out and sell em on the street corner
2020-11-07 16:58:45 acdw broadsheets
2020-11-07 16:58:50 makeworld ^^
2020-11-07 16:58:51 ddevault or if it does get printed, it'd probably be in the abstract future when the idea catches on and there's enough centralized resources to print it out as an actual magazine
2020-11-07 16:58:52 acdw making em A0 size
2020-11-07 16:58:58 makeworld Haha
2020-11-07 17:08:19 ew0k ddevault: publish on lulu.com ;)
2020-11-07 17:18:21 nihilazo I wish gemini:// links opened in my browser, idk how to set that up
2020-11-07 17:25:44 acdw nihilazo: I know for Firefox at least, they have a whitelist of protocols you can define a handler for
2020-11-07 17:25:49 acdw and gemini is not on that list
2020-11-07 17:26:07 nihilazo this is just clicking links in my terminal, idk what handles that
2020-11-07 17:26:10 acdw other browsers might be different, though I doubt Chrom* is... maybe qutebrowser / nyxt / something else
2020-11-07 17:26:11 nihilazo probably XDG?
2020-11-07 17:26:16 acdw nihilazo: probably XDG-open yea
2020-11-07 17:26:42 nihilazo but when I XDG-open a gemini link it does open in my browser
2020-11-07 17:26:43 nihilazo hmm
2020-11-07 17:26:47 nihilazo maybe it's becuase it's a CLI app
2020-11-07 17:27:01 ddevault probably because firefox thinks its hot shit and registers itself for every fucking protocol
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2020-11-07 17:31:43 acdw lol
2020-11-07 17:32:16 acdw there should be some command ...https://superuser.com/questions/162092/how-can-i-register-a-custom-protocol-with-xdg
2020-11-07 17:32:32 acdw you might have to do a .desktop file with MimeType
2020-11-07 17:32:38 acdw freedesktop sux
2020-11-07 17:32:43 nihilazo fucking .desktop files
2020-11-07 17:32:49 nihilazo why can't anything be simple
2020-11-07 17:32:57 nihilazo why can linux not just use plumbing rules
2020-11-07 17:33:15 nihilazo actually, plumber support on linux would be great. But I digress
2020-11-07 17:33:52 acdw i saw somebody made something that worked
2020-11-07 17:34:17 acdw nihilazo: depending on your term emulator, you could probably also tell it to use something besides xdg-open to open files
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2020-11-07 17:34:39 acdw OR .. what i do sometimes is make a shell script called xdg-open and put it in a PATH dir before the one the "real" xdg-open is in
2020-11-07 17:34:45 acdw with a big ass case statemtn
2020-11-07 17:34:54 nihilazo that actually honestly sounds better than xdg-open
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2020-11-07 17:37:00 acdw lol yep
2020-11-07 17:38:34 ddevault I do that as well
2020-11-07 17:40:46 aravk I do that with e.g. ssh and scp for my custom config file locations, works great
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2020-11-07 17:49:54 breadw we should share our big-ass case statements :P
2020-11-07 17:50:27 ddevault is not really that big https://git.sr.ht/~sircmpwn/dotfiles/tree/master/bin/xdg-open
2020-11-07 17:50:31 helby hope I will not need pdf viewer to read gemzin ;)
2020-11-07 17:51:40 nihilazo I didn't know qutebrowser could read pdfs
2020-11-07 17:52:16 raiz gemizine
2020-11-07 17:52:16 nihilazo what does "${1%%:*}" mean?
2020-11-07 17:53:01 ddevault trims off everything after the :
2020-11-07 17:54:03 ddevault https://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/utilities/V3_chap02.html#tag_18_06
2020-11-07 17:55:24 nihilazo cool. I really need to learn sh/bash properly sometime
2020-11-07 18:01:02 nihilazo but fake xdg-open works, and I now wonder why real xdg-open has to be complex
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2020-11-07 18:08:24 idf sup
2020-11-07 18:08:25 epoch I have some scripts for doing xdg-open-like stuff too.
2020-11-07 18:08:37 acdw sh is dope
2020-11-07 18:09:05 epoch s https d pastebin.com: tty || export 'HACK=x-terminal-emulator -e' ; $HACK less -f <(curl '%s://%d/raw%p')
2020-11-07 18:09:19 epoch that's a config-line for mine
2020-11-07 18:10:32 acdw uh
2020-11-07 18:10:33 acdw wut
2020-11-07 18:10:39 epoch you can use [sukdPpqfU] for matching parts of the URI
2020-11-07 18:10:50 epoch and the same for inserting those parts into the pipeline to handle it
2020-11-07 18:11:29 epoch scheme, username, key(password), domain, Port, path, querystring, fragment, (whole) URI
2020-11-07 18:13:26 acdw oh dope
2020-11-07 18:13:28 nihilazo the thing that's stopping me from properly learning sh is that it's like, confusing af to me
2020-11-07 18:13:32 acdw epoch: link to your script?
2020-11-07 18:13:44 ddevault read the spec, it's not very long
2020-11-07 18:14:02 acdw oh freal?
2020-11-07 18:14:08 acdw i didn't realize there was a spec tbh
2020-11-07 18:14:16 epoch https://github.com/kkabrams/uritools/blob/master/uristart
2020-11-07 18:14:23 acdw ty
2020-11-07 18:14:24 ddevault it's part of POSIX
2020-11-07 18:14:32 acdw oh no way! okay, looking it up
2020-11-07 18:15:00 acdw oh waith, you're talking about POSIX sh
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2020-11-07 18:15:05 acdw not POSIX xdg-open
2020-11-07 18:15:17 ddevault yes
2020-11-07 18:15:31 ddevault though xdg stands for cross-desktop group, who also publish standards
2020-11-07 18:15:37 acdw nihilazo: https://tilde.team/~ben/cgi-bin/man.sh?m=1p+sh
2020-11-07 18:15:38 ddevault much worse standards
2020-11-07 18:15:42 acdw oh yes
2020-11-07 18:15:48 acdw screw them standards
2020-11-07 18:15:58 acdw also TIL on xdg, thought it was some pun on Xorg
2020-11-07 18:16:04 acdw there a Wdg ? :P
2020-11-07 18:16:15 ddevault there is a group of people who make wayland standards
2020-11-07 18:16:17 ddevault they are not xdg, though
2020-11-07 18:16:27 ddevault there is a substantial overlap in membership
2020-11-07 18:16:33 acdw that tracks
2020-11-07 18:16:46 epoch https://freedesktop.org/
2020-11-07 18:17:14 ddevault https://danbooru.donmai.us/posts/4190946
2020-11-07 18:17:16 ddevault err
2020-11-07 18:17:18 ddevault https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols
2020-11-07 18:17:20 ddevault pastefail
2020-11-07 18:17:36 ddevault see GOVERNANCE.md for the structure
2020-11-07 18:18:45 bie ww
2020-11-07 18:21:14 acdw huh, funky
2020-11-07 18:21:26 idf btw i added geminim in the nimble packages recently, if you have nim you can get it by just `nimble install geminim`
2020-11-07 18:27:02 bie acdw: completely unrelated to gemini, but
2020-11-07 18:27:07 bie what's your fav film?
2020-11-07 18:32:30 acdw my goto fav is Wayne's World, but i Haven't seen it in a while
2020-11-07 18:32:40 bie oh wow that's a really good choice
2020-11-07 18:33:10 acdw my fav romcom is 1000% Moonstruck
2020-11-07 18:33:47 bie nice
2020-11-07 18:34:19 bie just watched harold and maude, for the second time
2020-11-07 18:38:25 acdw so goood
2020-11-07 18:38:33 acdw and the soundtrack *chefs kiss*
2020-11-07 18:39:01 bie yessss
2020-11-07 18:39:39 bie i listened to a podcast with cat stevens/yusuf islam a while ago
2020-11-07 18:40:22 bie i don't mind people going... all religious... but i'm happy he feels comfortable playing his old songs again lol
2020-11-07 18:41:15 makeworld nihilazo: Gemini links work in my Firefox
2020-11-07 18:41:30 makeworld It's cause the .desktop files define those applications as gemini scheme handlers
2020-11-07 18:41:41 makeworld MimeType=x-scheme-handler/gemini;
2020-11-07 18:41:57 makeworld Pretty ugly way to do it, but it works
2020-11-07 18:42:30 nihilazo huh
2020-11-07 18:42:40 nihilazo I just wrote an xdg-open replacement script
2020-11-07 18:43:10 makeworld Not sure if Firefox looks at that, good luck
2020-11-07 18:43:25 nihilazo well I'm not using firefox
2020-11-07 18:43:28 nihilazo I'm using qutebrowser
2020-11-07 18:48:04 makeworld Ah ok
2020-11-07 18:50:30 bie qutebrowser woww
2020-11-07 18:51:46 bie acdw: if i ever get a proper oven, i'll apply to join breadpunk.club :x
2020-11-07 18:52:24 ddevault design & build your own oven
2020-11-07 18:52:37 alex11 hey how do i go to links more than 10?
2020-11-07 18:52:40 ddevault you could make one in your back yard inside of a few hours
2020-11-07 18:52:45 alex11 in amfora, specifically, i guess
2020-11-07 18:53:08 bie ddevault: no back yard lol
2020-11-07 18:53:29 bie i can probably rent an oven tho
2020-11-07 18:53:32 ddevault appropriate someone else's back yard
2020-11-07 18:53:36 bie yesss
2020-11-07 18:54:40 makeworld alex11: Press space then type the link number. It's in the help menu.
2020-11-07 18:54:53 makeworld You're not the first person to ask, I'm unsure how to make it more obvious though
2020-11-07 18:55:17 alex11 thanks, i did look at the help but i guess i'm stupid and missed it
2020-11-07 18:55:39 makeworld Maybe change the bottom bar prompt from "URL/Num./Search:" to "URL/Link num./Search:"
2020-11-07 18:55:43 makeworld Ha no worries
2020-11-07 18:59:21 acdw bie: nice!
2020-11-07 18:59:30 acdw tho you don't have to bake to be a breadpunk
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2020-11-07 19:02:31 bie acdw: oh man, what are the alternatives? just cooking a steak? some veggies?
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2020-11-07 19:02:51 bie i like baing, just don't have an oven -,-
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2020-11-07 19:06:51 ddevault I too enjoy baing
2020-11-07 19:24:29 bie acdw: ever listen to the wedding present?
2020-11-07 19:54:08 acdw bie: lol sure!
2020-11-07 19:54:14 acdw just do stuff urself :)
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2020-11-07 21:16:24 kiedtl Is using box-drawing characters for tables in preformatted blocks discouraged?
2020-11-07 21:16:37 acdw not by me
2020-11-07 21:17:01 kiedtl hmm good
2020-11-07 21:18:06 kiedtl I'm sure most use fonts that support them; I guess its use shouldn't cause issues
2020-11-07 21:18:43 acdw the thing that gets tricky is ANSI escapes
2020-11-07 21:18:54 acdw but since gemini is UTF-8 by default, i'd say your good
2020-11-07 21:19:22 kiedtl ANSI escapes?
2020-11-07 21:19:57 kiedtl do you mean VTE escape sequences?
2020-11-07 21:20:39 acdw yes
2020-11-07 21:20:44 acdw i think
2020-11-07 21:20:48 acdw i thought they were the same
2020-11-07 21:21:30 kiedtl they are
2020-11-07 21:22:02 acdw oh lol
2020-11-07 21:22:03 kiedtl I mean, I had no idea clients supported those in gemini documents
2020-11-07 21:22:16 acdw oh right
2020-11-07 21:22:24 acdw bollux does, a few others do
2020-11-07 21:22:29 acdw mostly just the color ones
2020-11-07 21:22:42 acdw but yeah, super nonstandard, probably a bad idea
2020-11-07 21:24:35 makeworld Some do, don't expect it to work
2020-11-07 21:24:43 makeworld Amfora does :)
2020-11-07 21:24:49 makeworld But only in preformatted blocks
2020-11-07 21:25:51 kiedtl I don't think I'll ever use it. It's bad enough that I'm using box-drawing characters and mixing presentation and content, lol.
2020-11-07 21:25:58 acdw ha
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2020-11-07 21:30:59 lukee here's an opinion: ANSI escapes are a bad hack that assumes a terminal client.
2020-11-07 21:32:01 lukee they use the raw mechanics of a specific implementation technology. Like embedding raw C or html in your content and expecting it to be interpreted
2020-11-07 21:32:30 acdw ^ fair
2020-11-07 21:32:40 acdw yeah for sure, that's why i quit using them
2020-11-07 21:32:44 zephryn that's true, yeah
2020-11-07 21:33:25 lukee if we drink the plain text cool aid, we have to try to at least enjoy it
2020-11-07 21:33:42 kiedtl here's a very primitive log view that shows the logs from today: gemini://tilde.team/~kiedtl/irc/gem/today
2020-11-07 21:33:53 kiedtl send nitpicks, will be back in 10 minutes
2020-11-07 21:33:55 ★ kiedtl off
2020-11-07 21:34:12 lukee box drawing is fine - there are unicode code points for it
2020-11-07 21:36:14 acdw i like the |
2020-11-07 21:42:59 lukee fun to see another rendering of the IRC logs, but my favourite is kevinsan's Gemini version which wraps nicely to the window gemini://gemini.susa.net/cgi-bin/gemini-irc
2020-11-07 21:43:58 lukee if you use a preformatted region, it can require a lot of scrolling if the client tries to preserve the fixed layout
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2020-11-07 21:52:36 acdw true
2020-11-07 21:52:40 acdw i like that kevinsan
2020-11-07 21:54:40 kiedtl Oh, you like kev's version? I kinda find that one hard to follow conversations, lol
2020-11-07 21:54:56 acdw i mean, i didn't try to read it hah
2020-11-07 21:55:48 kiedtl but yeah, I see your point about my viewer being hard to scroll
2020-11-07 21:56:04 kiedtl one sec
2020-11-07 21:56:26 ★ kiedtl wonders whether /bin/fold could be used to pre-wrap messages
2020-11-07 21:56:49 acdw prolly
2020-11-07 21:56:52 acdw or par
2020-11-07 21:56:58 boringcactus well then you're guessing the size ahead of time, and spoilers, you'll guess wrong most of the time
2020-11-07 21:57:32 acdw true
2020-11-07 22:04:39 kiedtl Correct; but 75 isn't a bad guess, and the worst that will happen is that users have to scroll sideways /anyway/ (as this is all going in a preff blk)
2020-11-07 22:05:12 acdw ^
2020-11-07 22:09:00 kiedtl or, in the case of a terminal > 80 chars, there will be a bunch of wasted space
2020-11-07 22:09:17 kiedtl I think I'll provide log viewers in kev's style and in this style.
2020-11-07 22:17:35 acdw ooh maybe have a query that lets the user specify width
2020-11-07 22:18:34 lukee irc-log?wrap=80
2020-11-07 22:18:46 acdw ye
2020-11-07 22:19:16 kiedtl hmm that's an interesting idea
2020-11-07 22:19:34 kiedtl wait... does gemini support multiple queries for the same page?
2020-11-07 22:19:59 boringcactus i mean
2020-11-07 22:20:07 lukee you can stuff whatever you want into the query as long as it meets the URL spec
2020-11-07 22:20:09 boringcactus yeah
2020-11-07 22:21:25 acdw like http queries -- irc-log?wrap=80&color=blue&me=you
2020-11-07 22:25:10 kiedtl Ah, good
2020-11-07 22:28:07 ★ lukee wants to visit a web application needing a parameter &me=you
2020-11-07 22:28:44 ★ lukee meant a gemini application of course...
2020-11-07 22:28:53 acdw aha
2020-11-07 22:28:55 acdw make one!
2020-11-07 22:35:53 lukee acdw: I'm thinking...
2020-11-07 22:38:33 acdw :D
2020-11-07 22:40:26 kiedtl I've added the wrap-width prompt and timestamps: gemini://tilde.team/~kiedtl/irc/gem/today
2020-11-07 22:40:31 kiedtl does that look better?
2020-11-07 22:47:56 acdw nice
2020-11-07 22:48:23 acdw oh dope
2020-11-07 22:48:25 acdw looks awesome
2020-11-07 22:49:01 acdw amazing kiedtl !!!
2020-11-07 22:49:03 acdw i love it
2020-11-07 22:49:10 acdw i wish emacs acutally had an irc client that looked like this
2020-11-07 22:54:17 kiedtl great!
2020-11-07 22:54:32 kiedtl Now for the search page
2020-11-07 22:55:53 kayw wow that's super cool
2020-11-07 23:01:49 lukee acdw: I have it
2020-11-07 23:02:22 acdw YES!!??
2020-11-07 23:02:25 lukee a poignant conversation script assembler
2020-11-07 23:02:37 acdw oooh
2020-11-07 23:02:39 lukee gemini://gemini.marmaladefoo.com/cgi-bin/conversation-fragment.cgi?me=Why%20did%20you%20follow%20me%20here%20to%20the%20station%3F%20I%20thought%20we%20had%20said%20our%20goodbyes...&you=me
2020-11-07 23:03:44 acdw aww it's not a url encoded web form
2020-11-07 23:03:53 lukee at the moment it just allows each character to say something once. I might fix it up so it can have a back and forth dialog
2020-11-07 23:03:58 acdw gemini.marmaladefoo.com/cgi-bin/conversation-fragment.cgi?me=Why%20did%20you%20follow%20me%20here%20to%20the%20station%3F%20I%20thought%20we%20had%20said%20our%20goodbyes...&you=me
2020-11-07 23:04:07 acdw ** Where: forskip do either either either -apply-
2020-11-07 23:04:07 acdw ** Near: forskip params 2 [
2020-11-07 23:04:07 acdw print rejoin [
2020-11-07 23:04:07 acdw "* " (first pa...
2020-11-07 23:04:13 acdw ^ there
2020-11-07 23:05:53 lukee huh
2020-11-07 23:06:02 lukee try this simpler one gemini://gemini.marmaladefoo.com/cgi-bin/conversation-fragment.cgi?kirk=give%20me%20warp%20speed
2020-11-07 23:09:06 acdw that one worked
2020-11-07 23:09:09 acdw super dope :)
2020-11-07 23:10:26 lukee but the first one not?
2020-11-07 23:11:28 acdw nope
2020-11-07 23:12:20 lukee what client?
2020-11-07 23:12:23 acdw elpher
2020-11-07 23:12:29 acdw it returns a cgi error
2020-11-07 23:12:48 acdw it might've been the way i copied & pasted the url...let me try typing one out myself
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2020-11-07 23:13:44 acdw gemini://gemini.marmaladefoo.com/cgi-bin/conversation-fragment.cgi?kirk=KHAAANNNNNNNNNNNN&spock=what%20about%20him&kirk=KHAAAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHNNNNNNNNN&spock=omg%20kirk
2020-11-07 23:13:49 acdw this worked
2020-11-07 23:14:03 acdw oh you can't do a full conversation
2020-11-07 23:14:15 lukee not yet :)
2020-11-07 23:14:19 acdw haha
2020-11-07 23:15:06 lukee I just need to sort out the param parsing. Just a hack right now
2020-11-07 23:15:31 acdw still,great idea :)
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2020-11-08 06:30:32 khuxkm i wrote a spartan client to demonstrate 21 vs 22 responses https://gist.github.com/febd3f5ae2308e8b55449a92c6e58a65
2020-11-08 06:30:36 khuxkm also posted to the ML
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2020-11-08 06:49:51 ew0k Why is Ali so hostile on the ML? That people have feature proposals is just good. That 99,9% of them are shot down is good too :D
2020-11-08 06:51:12 boringcactus i think having an attitude of every feature is a bad idea unless it can justify its existence is reasonable
2020-11-08 06:51:30 boringcactus and. i'm still waiting for shaping the protocol around cacheing to do that
2020-11-08 06:51:45 boringcactus but i am getting. extremely tired. of the bikeshedding
2020-11-08 07:02:34 ew0k Wanted: a daily digest of the ML in podcast form
2020-11-08 07:02:57 ew0k I keep forgetting what the term bikeshedding means
2020-11-08 07:04:25 ew0k and yes, every feature is a bad idea until orherwise proven. It’s the tone of his responses I was talking about
2020-11-08 07:07:57 khuxkm I mean, as long as "bad idea" just extends to "we're not going to implement it unless you can show why or where it could be useful", that'd fine
2020-11-08 07:08:05 khuxkm s/that'd/that's/
2020-11-08 07:08:47 khuxkm but when it extends to "i'm going to belittle your very existence and contributions toward the protocol just because i don't like your idea" that's when it stops being reasonable and starts being elitism
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2020-11-08 07:14:06 boringcactus like. we're mostly done now, i think, with content-length TotallyNotHeaders
2020-11-08 07:14:25 boringcactus it's settled that there's no actually good way to do that, but it took a while
2020-11-08 07:15:02 boringcactus and another "hey let's add some complexity somewhere else" proposal when we just got done rejecting the last one
2020-11-08 07:15:08 boringcactus gets old fast
2020-11-08 07:17:15 boringcactus but like.
2020-11-08 07:17:32 boringcactus you can't cache-by-default, because you have no way of knowing which things will change and which things won't
2020-11-08 07:17:44 boringcactus any client that assumes everything can be cached is a client that's broken
2020-11-08 07:18:13 boringcactus and adding 2x to mean You Can Cache This If You Want I Guess Because It Probably Won't Change is
2020-11-08 07:18:22 boringcactus like. what does that even gain
2020-11-08 07:18:48 boringcactus and even if there's something to be gained there, i do not understand how it could justify its own addition
2020-11-08 07:18:50 khuxkm >you can't cache-by-default
2020-11-08 07:19:00 khuxkm except there are in fact clients that do cache-by-default
2020-11-08 07:19:20 boringcactus well those clients either do that within history and so preserve principle-of-least-surprise or are broken
2020-11-08 07:19:51 khuxkm so Amfora is broken then, since it's my understanding amfora does caching by session
2020-11-08 07:20:06 khuxkm which can be an arbitrarily long time
2020-11-08 07:20:33 boringcactus well if it assumes pages never change then yeah
2020-11-08 07:20:50 khuxkm well it caches within the browsing session
2020-11-08 07:21:07 khuxkm but that browsing session can be basically as long as you keep amfora open in a screen/tmux window
2020-11-08 07:21:50 khuxkm I mean my idea was just to add a "absolutely don't cache this please whatever you do to my other stuff leave this one alone" status code (for CGI guestbooks, random image servers, etc.)
2020-11-08 07:21:56 boringcactus that should be 20
2020-11-08 07:22:04 khuxkm see, I don't agree with you on that
2020-11-08 07:22:09 boringcactus "don't assume you can cache this" should be the default
2020-11-08 07:22:18 khuxkm because nowhere in the spec does it say you can't cache a 20 response
2020-11-08 07:22:45 boringcactus but making servers all implement your 2x "don't fuckin cache this" if they want clients to behave reasonably is boiling the ocean
2020-11-08 07:23:25 khuxkm no server *has* to implement the don't fuckin cache this status code
2020-11-08 07:23:43 boringcactus if they want to be compatible with clients that will otherwise fuckin cache this, they will
2020-11-08 07:23:53 khuxkm well you already have to deal with clients that will
2020-11-08 07:23:58 boringcactus well, no
2020-11-08 07:24:01 khuxkm yes
2020-11-08 07:24:04 boringcactus those clients are just being weird
2020-11-08 07:24:18 boringcactus and the spec should not make that weirdness the default after the fact
2020-11-08 07:24:27 khuxkm it's not though
2020-11-08 07:24:41 khuxkm all I'm saying is to add a "feel free to cache this" code and a "don't cache this" code
2020-11-08 07:24:48 khuxkm 20 would remain as it always has been
2020-11-08 07:25:03 khuxkm but this prospective 21 and 22 would just be cache hints in case you wanted to implement caching
2020-11-08 07:25:39 boringcactus "if you want to add this maybe-a-misfeature to your client, the server can get more complicated too in order to tell you how to implement it"
2020-11-08 07:25:41 boringcactus like
2020-11-08 07:25:52 khuxkm it's literally 2 more numbers
2020-11-08 07:26:04 boringcactus this time it's two more numbers
2020-11-08 07:26:06 khuxkm you already have to memorize a bunch of numbers to get gemini responses correct
2020-11-08 07:26:21 khuxkm there won't be a next time; what else can you even add like this?
2020-11-08 07:26:30 boringcactus like. this is even less compelling than content-length, and content-length couldn't justify itself
2020-11-08 07:26:33 khuxkm not Content-Length, that's invalid with 2x META
2020-11-08 07:27:21 khuxkm it's less compelling to *you*, certainly, but that doesn't mean it's less compelling to *everybody*
2020-11-08 07:27:40 khuxkm also content-length does have a valid use but it wouldn't fit in the protocol and there's no room for it
2020-11-08 07:27:53 khuxkm meanwhile this is literally just "you can serve this code if you want to"
2020-11-08 07:27:54 boringcactus all three make it distinct from cacheing
2020-11-08 07:28:21 khuxkm how so
2020-11-08 07:28:26 boringcactus shit i oversnarked and no longer make sense
2020-11-08 07:28:34 khuxkm understandable
2020-11-08 07:29:10 boringcactus if we add more bullshit this one time, the next time somebody comes up with more bullshit somebody's gonna go "well remember the last time we added more bullshit?"
2020-11-08 07:30:15 khuxkm but how can you add more bullshit under this framework? you'd need to define a whole new class of status codes for Content-Length
2020-11-08 07:30:50 boringcactus 23, first line of response is (content-length | SHA512 | author's favorite ice cream flavor)
2020-11-08 07:31:01 boringcactus or alternatively 25 Make It Purple
2020-11-08 07:31:04 khuxkm but that's not a mime type
2020-11-08 07:31:15 khuxkm and therefore it's not compatible with 20
2020-11-08 07:32:11 boringcactus i am still not sure why cacheing is so good it deserves to have not one but two new status codes (although it doesn't because the don't assume you can cache this status code is already 20 if you want your client to actually work)
2020-11-08 07:32:25 aravk Has anyone made a Gemini server that returns (raw) wikipedia pages? Apparently you can use https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Export/<exact title> to get an XML file containing the raw wiki-formatted text.
2020-11-08 07:32:31 khuxkm again I disagree with you there, but I also kinda agree with you there
2020-11-08 07:32:45 khuxkm I just wanted a "please don't cache this" code
2020-11-08 07:33:01 boringcactus then use 20, and if there are broken clients, take it up with the client author
2020-11-08 07:33:02 khuxkm which would leave clients to decide whether or not they wanted to cache 20 responses
2020-11-08 07:33:36 khuxkm so I'm supposed to bug every single person who has or will ever make a client if something isn't working the way I think it ought to
2020-11-08 07:33:40 khuxkm good talk
2020-11-08 07:33:44 aravk if a "please don't cache this" code was added, servers could detect that it's needed if the last mod time of the file being served was less than 10 minutes ago
2020-11-08 07:33:46 boringcactus if a client rot13s the text before displaying it, that's the client being broken, and you don't need a 24 status code
2020-11-08 07:34:04 khuxkm that's... not even in the same ballpark
2020-11-08 07:34:10 khuxkm not sure where you got that one from
2020-11-08 07:34:31 boringcactus if a client machine translates the text from Italian to French before displaying it, that's the client being broken, and you don't need a 25 status code
2020-11-08 07:34:44 khuxkm again, not in the same ballpark
2020-11-08 07:34:51 boringcactus if the client wants to make incorrect assumptions about content, that's the client's problem, not the protocol's
2020-11-08 07:35:12 khuxkm but how is the client meant to make assumptions about the content?
2020-11-08 07:35:21 boringcactus it should make as few as possible
2020-11-08 07:35:36 khuxkm so be wasteful because it's not like global warming exists or anything
2020-11-08 07:35:37 khuxkm got it
2020-11-08 07:35:59 boringcactus ah yes, because downloading half a kilobyte of gemtext a second time is literally as harmful as dumping millions of barrels of oil into the ocean
2020-11-08 07:36:07 aravk the overhead of retrieving (almost always very small) pages is not that high, khuxkm
2020-11-08 07:36:35 khuxkm >(almost always very small)
2020-11-08 07:36:43 khuxkm I thought we weren't making assumptions about content, my bad
2020-11-08 07:36:51 khuxkm either way, the overhead isn't 0
2020-11-08 07:36:54 aravk sure
2020-11-08 07:37:08 aravk but it's far less than many of the other things people can (and do) do to reduce global warming
2020-11-08 07:37:24 boringcactus if you want to download a page just once and then view it locally, you can just. do that
2020-11-08 07:37:49 aravk and also the protocol is designed to be for serving small text/gemini files - yes, you can serve big stuff, but it's generally discouraged
2020-11-08 07:38:12 aravk and in fact if it's a big file you're even less likely to try to view it again (because it's generally a one-time download)
2020-11-08 07:38:26 aravk no point in caching in these situations
2020-11-08 07:38:35 khuxkm I believe the example given was a CGI endpoint that returns a random image
2020-11-08 07:38:52 boringcactus that's *an* example, yes
2020-11-08 07:39:04 boringcactus but hardly the only kind of dynamic content over gemini
2020-11-08 07:39:56 aravk clients can simply cache pages in the previous-in-history and forward-in-history list
2020-11-08 07:40:05 aravk and then if the user wants to update the page they can simply reload
2020-11-08 07:40:15 khuxkm okay but the point is that some clients do that and other clients don't
2020-11-08 07:40:19 aravk yes
2020-11-08 07:40:23 aravk that's the point of having multiple clients
2020-11-08 07:40:28 boringcactus cacheing within history maintains principle of least surprise
2020-11-08 07:40:33 khuxkm and apparently we're not in the business of telling the clients what they can and can't do
2020-11-08 07:40:40 aravk true, we aren't
2020-11-08 07:40:47 aravk but there are lots of conventions building up
2020-11-08 07:41:01 boringcactus we're not in the business of extending the protocol to give pathways for the server to tell the client how it should handle some certain type of behavior
2020-11-08 07:41:09 boringcactus i love telling clients what they can and can't do
2020-11-08 07:41:23 boringcactus well, more accurately, what they should and shouldn't do
2020-11-08 07:41:40 boringcactus and a thing a client shouldn't do is assume all content on gemini is static content that can be cached indefinitely
2020-11-08 07:42:15 boringcactus just like a thing a client shouldn't do is assume all content on gemini is written in Italian and machine translate it to French for easier reading
2020-11-08 07:43:55 boringcactus like. as a user, if i go back in my history and i see recognizably stale content, i've been trained by http clients doing the same thing to just hit refresh and call it a day
2020-11-08 07:44:24 boringcactus but if i follow a link or something, i'm expecting to see what the server actually gave me
2020-11-08 07:44:41 boringcactus not "so i remember three days ago the last time you were here, this is what the server said, so that's still good, right?"
2020-11-08 07:45:11 khuxkm except logic would follow that, being trained from HTTP clients doing the same thing, you'd notice that you might not be getting the perfect latest bit of the response
2020-11-08 07:45:33 khuxkm because I've had plenty of times where i had to hit force-refresh after changing something, even if it wasn't in history
2020-11-08 07:45:48 khuxkm but whatever, I'm not going to get anywhere with you, you have your preconceptions and I have mine
2020-11-08 07:45:52 khuxkm that's okay
2020-11-08 07:47:59 boringcactus like with redirects, the default is assume it's temporary, and there's a separate fancy option for "you can remember this forever, if you want'
2020-11-08 07:48:15 boringcactus so you could make a case by analogy that 21 SUCCESS BUT CACHE IF YOU WANT would make sense
2020-11-08 07:48:58 khuxkm but the problem is "how is the server going to know if you can safely cache a response"
2020-11-08 07:49:12 boringcactus the same way it knows if you can safely cache a redirect
2020-11-08 07:49:20 boringcactus i.e. 🤷
2020-11-08 07:49:37 khuxkm it's much more likely that a CGI script will return a different value on each request, and therefore shouldn't be cached
2020-11-08 07:49:57 boringcactus in which case the server should continue to give a 20
2020-11-08 07:51:06 khuxkm okay, you're assuming 20 == no cache
2020-11-08 07:51:16 khuxkm which is not always the case in practice
2020-11-08 07:51:33 boringcactus well
2020-11-08 07:51:41 boringcactus do you mean in terms of server intent or client behavior
2020-11-08 07:52:04 khuxkm yes?
2020-11-08 07:52:17 khuxkm the intent isn't to be "YOU MUST" or "YOU MUST NOT"
2020-11-08 07:52:39 khuxkm the intent is to be like "i mean you can if you like" or "please don't"
2020-11-08 07:52:48 khuxkm it's more of a hint rather than a statement
2020-11-08 07:53:23 khuxkm honestly though I kinda like spc's idea a little better? kinda?
2020-11-08 07:53:40 khuxkm certainly would be interesting to see if/how it could be handled server-side
2020-11-08 07:54:03 boringcactus hm
2020-11-08 07:54:15 boringcactus it doesn't involve fucking with the protocol itself, so that's always a plus
2020-11-08 07:56:05 khuxkm uh, yes it does?
2020-11-08 07:56:12 khuxkm either way we're adding a status code
2020-11-08 07:56:13 boringcactus oh
2020-11-08 07:56:14 boringcactus i'm
2020-11-08 07:56:20 boringcactus ignore that, it's late
2020-11-08 07:56:24 boringcactus like. adding one status code is half as much as adding two status codes, and defining one as the default hint and making the other one an optional thing makes more sense to me than making them both separate
2020-11-08 07:56:56 boringcactus and defining "cache this if you want i guess" as the default breaks cgi on some clients until it catches up
2020-11-08 07:56:56 khuxkm the main issue I'm seeing is how to parse the path parameter out
2020-11-08 07:57:39 khuxkm since older servers that haven't "caught up" to the new spec won't understand unless they've got amazing URL parsing clients
2020-11-08 07:57:45 khuxkm s/clients/libraries/
2020-11-08 07:58:21 khuxkm Python, for instance, doesn't filter out the path params
2020-11-08 07:58:32 khuxkm at least, not by default...
2020-11-08 07:59:07 boringcactus i mean. couldn't you get something similar by returning a 44 SLOW DOWN
2020-11-08 07:59:15 khuxkm you have to add gemini to urllib.parse.uses_params
2020-11-08 07:59:56 boringcactus because that already has the semantics of "don't ask me about this right this second"
2020-11-08 08:00:59 boringcactus and if a crawler/fancy client/feed reader/whatever gets back a 51 NOT FOUND (which imo shouldn't count as a permanent failure but whatever) for a semicolon-timestamped URL then it just assumes the server doesn't know about timestamp-caching
2020-11-08 08:07:38 khuxkm true
2020-11-08 08:11:40 boringcactus building it on 44 means the specification as a document doesn't have to change a damn line
2020-11-08 08:12:52 boringcactus if you really think the protocol spec needs 21 SUCCESS - PERMANENT by analogy with 31 REDIRECT - PERMANENT then keep fighting for it i guess, but you can get a similar effect by building within the protocol that already exists
2020-11-08 08:21:04 khuxkm I didn't want SUCCESS - PERMANENT
2020-11-08 08:21:42 khuxkm also I fail to see how 44 SLOW DOWN is the same as "request is OK but no data"
2020-11-08 08:22:43 khuxkm "The request was handled successfully" vs "The request has failed."
2020-11-08 08:22:47 khuxkm boringcactus: ^
2020-11-08 08:23:17 boringcactus yeah but SUCCESS - PERMANENT is a better thing to want than SUCCESS - PERMANENT and also SUCCESS - TEMPORARY
2020-11-08 08:28:26 boringcactus and a client asking about caching could reasonably interpret a 44 with a timeout of 0 as "i do not have anything for you right now"
2020-11-08 08:28:58 boringcactus and even if it wasn't meant that way and was just "try again in zero seconds" the server doesn't have any data to give
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2020-11-08 09:04:21 ew0k I have thoughts on this, but not much time to elaborate rn. In short: the user (not client or server) should have final say, imho. I’ll try to remember to elaborate on it later either here, on the ML or a gemlog :)
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2020-11-08 10:27:58 lieu1 hey guys, I have been looking at gemini for quite a while now, I think it is quite interesting. I have a question: given that one can serve any sort of response (binary data) in the response body, doesn't this mean that applications, videos etc could be serve? and wouldn't this defeat the purpose of gemini?
2020-11-08 10:28:04 lieu1 please let me know if my question makes sense
2020-11-08 10:29:55 insep i've definitely seen images and pdfs served over gemini
2020-11-08 10:30:13 ℹ lieu1 is now known as lieu
2020-11-08 10:30:40 insep but note that gemini doesn't have any sort of compression, so it's a little bit inefficient to serve huge files over it
2020-11-08 10:30:43 lieu yes that makes sense but then doesn't that mean you could also serve other "bad" data like applications and what not
2020-11-08 10:30:48 insep at least that's what faq says
2020-11-08 10:30:52 lieu wasn't the express purpose of gemini to be a simpler web
2020-11-08 10:35:37 lieu > Gemini should be able to be used for as many other purposes as possible without compromising the simplicity and privacy criteria above. This means taking into account possible applications built around non-text files and non-human clients
2020-11-08 10:36:59 lieu i am trying to find a way to convince my friends (and myself to some degree) of the point of Gemini so would appreciate if anyone had some thoughts on this
2020-11-08 10:53:07 bie insep: serving huge files isn't that inefficient
2020-11-08 10:53:50 ew0k lieu: imho the big gain with gemini is the small amount of client to server calls. Wanna fetch a capsule (gemini lingo for page)? That’s *one* get call. On a web page it’s usually tens to hundreds (the main file, stylesheets, javascript, analytics, trackers, images...)
2020-11-08 10:56:14 ew0k if you want to serve a single file, whether it’s pdf, image, or other binary file, the protocol itself isn’t optimized for it. It’s not *bad*, necessarily. Though if it’s a big file and download is interrupted you’ll have to start again
2020-11-08 10:57:46 lieu i see
2020-11-08 10:57:48 ew0k if you download a binary file from the web, you’ll often find that the webpage serving it takes you on a route through a page that collects analytics and tracking cookies before redirecting you to the actual file. That behaviour is not really possible with gemini
2020-11-08 10:57:55 lieu but is just reducing the number of server calls a compelling enough reason
2020-11-08 10:58:25 ew0k that depends :) for me it is. I can’t speak for your friends
2020-11-08 10:59:45 lieu could there ever be games built on gemini?
2020-11-08 10:59:53 ew0k It’s a sort of freedom argument there too. To build a web browser is a gargantuan task. Not even Microsoft can do it comptetitively anymore; pretty much all web browsers will be reskins of chrome
2020-11-08 11:00:20 ew0k gemini itself has no concept of scripting, so not really.
2020-11-08 11:00:24 lieu by this i mean since servers can send 1x INPUT status codes to request user input
2020-11-08 11:00:56 bie i mean, you can serve some kind of "game file" over gemini
2020-11-08 11:01:03 lieu it seems possible that clients can send arbitrary text input AND that servers can return arbitrary binary data in the response body
2020-11-08 11:01:04 bie but the clients aren't likely to do anything with it
2020-11-08 11:01:29 lieu > 3.2.1 1x (INPUT)
2020-11-08 11:01:31 lieu Status codes beginning with 1 are INPUT status codes, meaning:
2020-11-08 11:01:33 lieu The requested resource accepts a line of textual user input. The <META> line is a prompt which should be displayed to the user. The same resource should then be requested again with the user's input included as a query component
2020-11-08 11:01:41 ew0k I mean, gemini is two different things. There’s the protocol, which only supports GET calls — the only input to servers is the URL, a client certificate if provided and maybe a query string
2020-11-08 11:02:12 insep just serve html over gemini /s
2020-11-08 11:02:31 ew0k then there’s the gemtext markup language, which is the geminispace response to html
2020-11-08 11:02:51 lieu yes, I don't think the `text/gemini` markup language is that interesting---basically a reskinned markdown
2020-11-08 11:02:56 lieu i am talking about the protocol
2020-11-08 11:03:40 ew0k if you build a client that can handle html and javascript, or a web browser that can communicate through the gemini protocol, you can of course serve html files with javascript in them
2020-11-08 11:04:18 lieu yes
2020-11-08 11:04:41 lieu that's surely bad, right?
2020-11-08 11:04:43 ew0k and you can build a client that eschews the gemini way of only making calls explicitly inititated by the user
2020-11-08 11:04:54 lieu what do you mean by calls?
2020-11-08 11:05:12 ew0k Get calls to the server
2020-11-08 11:05:42 ew0k as in, fetching scripts, images, stylesheets etc without the user explicitly clicking those links
2020-11-08 11:06:17 lieu oh i see what you mean
2020-11-08 11:06:30 lieu so the current protocol makes one GET request and gets back the header/body
2020-11-08 11:06:46 lieu and the client needs to make additional GET requests to get all the images/links/etc in the response body
2020-11-08 11:07:06 lieu but you're saying we could theoretically circumvent that with a client
2020-11-08 11:07:13 ew0k doing that (serving html+js, loading elements without user input, etc) and rendering that in the browser isn’t *bad*, but I would argue that http is better for it
2020-11-08 11:07:27 lieu well that would defeat the purpose of gemini entirely
2020-11-08 11:07:31 ew0k we could, definitely
2020-11-08 11:07:37 ew0k exactly
2020-11-08 11:07:38 lieu might as well just go back to HTTP then
2020-11-08 11:07:48 ew0k yup :)
2020-11-08 11:07:51 lieu yes so that's the main concern i have here
2020-11-08 11:07:59 lieu or like i guess you could call it a main confusion
2020-11-08 11:08:55 lieu so the gemini protocol allows serving of all types of files including arbitrary binary data / HTML/ videos etc
2020-11-08 11:09:17 lieu so in fact it's not the PROTOCOL that is enforcing the "simplicity" of Gemini
2020-11-08 11:09:29 lieu it is a compact made by all gemini CLIENT developers
2020-11-08 11:09:48 lieu the simplicity is not in the protocol but rather in the client
2020-11-08 11:09:53 lieu do you see what i'm trying to get at
2020-11-08 11:09:57 ew0k Pretty much spot on
2020-11-08 11:10:24 ew0k it’s a philosophy and a community agreement, you could say
2020-11-08 11:10:34 lieu yes but in that case aren't we barking up the wrong tree? shouldn't we just build simple HTTP clients?
2020-11-08 11:10:38 lieu like lynx or whatever
2020-11-08 11:10:45 lieu why do we need to have a new gemini protocol?
2020-11-08 11:11:13 bie we don't *need* it, but
2020-11-08 11:11:17 bie it's fun
2020-11-08 11:11:31 bie and even simple http clients are pretty complex
2020-11-08 11:11:35 ew0k Purists will argue that there isn’t really a ”sane” subset of http, and that setting a standard around that is impossible
2020-11-08 11:12:22 ew0k but there’s also the history of where gemini comes from. I found that tomasino’s video on gopher helped me understand that: https://toobnix.org/videos/watch/1b9699da-3c41-48a8-8009-97b756e88a3d
2020-11-08 11:13:25 lieu Couldn't find the page
2020-11-08 11:13:28 lieu looks like it 404d
2020-11-08 11:13:44 lieu oh, never mind...
2020-11-08 11:13:48 lieu the reason why is because
2020-11-08 11:13:58 lieu this WeeChat thingy i'm using is not smart enough to click a link
2020-11-08 11:14:02 lieu the entire link
2020-11-08 11:14:12 lieu just stops at the line wrap
2020-11-08 11:14:19 lieu What is this toobnix?
2020-11-08 11:18:32 lieu And actually what is this whole tilde community? could someone explain it?
2020-11-08 11:39:48 lieu also @ew0k I am browsing your gemlog, you seem like a cool person
2020-11-08 11:40:00 lieu cool and smart :)
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2020-11-08 12:12:29 @tomasino i have a video on that too, lieu
2020-11-08 12:12:47 bie just realized that i don't have to do any server rewrites to handle ipv4 and ipv6 at the same time
2020-11-08 12:12:50 bie relayd to the rescue
2020-11-08 12:13:04 @tomasino https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qK1mInnbfrU
2020-11-08 12:16:56 low-key We call the http world the internet or the web?
2020-11-08 12:17:03 low-key As opposed to gemini.
2020-11-08 12:17:08 low-key I keep getting confused between the two.
2020-11-08 12:18:29 low-key I want to see ew0k's gemlog too!
2020-11-08 12:19:03 ew0k lieu: thank you :D
2020-11-08 12:19:51 ew0k low-key: <3 gemini://tilde.team/~ew0k
2020-11-08 12:20:27 ew0k (I’ve forgotten to update the index page with a link to the latest post, but you can find it on capcom or spacewalk)
2020-11-08 12:21:47 low-key Bookmarked!
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2020-11-08 12:22:30 ew0k lieu: the tildeverse is probably better explained by someone else than me :D I just found it a couple of weeks ago
2020-11-08 12:22:59 low-key tomasi's exploration videos are great starting points
2020-11-08 12:23:26 ew0k but it’s sorr of what an internet community can be, if you take away the notion that a community equals a website/social network/forum
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2020-11-08 12:26:47 low-key Where do y'all get the ASCII art for your capsules from?
2020-11-08 12:26:56 low-key Mine could really use one.
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2020-11-08 12:30:12 mieum low-key: I've been using sloum's tdiv to turn images into braille "text" images
2020-11-08 12:30:50 mieum there is a lot of potential in that tool
2020-11-08 12:32:56 low-key Ohh
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2020-11-08 13:02:52 mieum low-key: here's an example gemini://rawtext.club/~mieum/
2020-11-08 13:03:44 bie mieum: nice! where can i find tdiv?
2020-11-08 13:05:42 mieum bie: https://git.rawtext.club/sloum/tdiv
2020-11-08 13:05:52 bie thanks
2020-11-08 13:05:57 mieum np
2020-11-08 13:06:29 mieum it works really nice with high contrast images, like pictures of text
2020-11-08 13:07:02 mieum I like using it to make Chinese/Korean text-art headers
2020-11-08 13:07:19 mieum gemini://namu.blue/~mieum/library/ddj/
2020-11-08 13:07:56 bie wow yeah, that's something i've been wanting to do
2020-11-08 13:08:31 mieum I believe bombadillo uses tdiv to "view" images if you tell it to
2020-11-08 13:08:42 mieum anyway, have fun :)
2020-11-08 13:33:40 low-key Thanks a lot!
2020-11-08 14:13:16 lieu @tomasino: a video on what?
2020-11-08 14:13:56 lieu mieum: I like the ASCII chinese art!
2020-11-08 14:14:21 low-key on the tildeverse
2020-11-08 14:14:24 low-key they did link to it above
2020-11-08 14:14:34 lieu ah okay sorry didn't see that
2020-11-08 14:17:05 low-key mieum: how do you get your chinese or japanese ascii art? You'll need images, won't you?
2020-11-08 14:18:38 rndusr lieu: the tildeverse is a collection of public access unix systems: http://tildeverse.org
2020-11-08 14:19:04 rndusr oh whoops
2020-11-08 14:19:15 rndusr I was looking up in history
2020-11-08 14:19:24 ★ rndusr smrt
2020-11-08 14:35:49 ▬▬▶ tane has joined #gemini
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2020-11-08 15:23:39 lieu How does CAPCOM/space whatever know when the files/gemini logs have been last updated?
2020-11-08 15:24:02 lieu Spacewalk
2020-11-08 15:24:14 lieu Somehow they know the last updated of the geminispace feeds
2020-11-08 15:24:32 lieu Is it an xml file that everyone publishes?
2020-11-08 15:24:58 kayw CAPCOM does a daily check of all the atom.xml files that it has in it's feed list
2020-11-08 15:25:04 lieu I see
2020-11-08 15:25:08 lieu What about SpaceWalk?
2020-11-08 15:25:15 kayw that i'm not sure about
2020-11-08 15:25:27 lieu So I need to somehow build a SSG that will generate an atom.xml file from my .org files
2020-11-08 15:25:36 lieu and also generate .gmi files from .org files and .md files
2020-11-08 15:25:50 kayw but CAPCOM builds an index.gmi file that has links to all the new blog posts it's following
2020-11-08 15:26:13 lieu what if I want to build a website that isn't a blog? that has evergreen content rather than chronological one?
2020-11-08 15:27:58 kayw i'm not so sure about that one, sorry
2020-11-08 15:28:24 ddevault added input to my gateway https://portal.drewdevault.com/cgi-bin/man.sh
2020-11-08 15:28:47 lieu what does your portal do ddevault:
2020-11-08 15:28:49 lieu ?
2020-11-08 15:28:52 ddevault http -> gemini
2020-11-08 15:29:01 low-key whoa
2020-11-08 15:29:07 ddevault https://portal.drewdevault.com/
2020-11-08 15:29:08 low-key that's exactly what i didn't know i needed
2020-11-08 15:29:55 kayw woah i love the color of the portal
2020-11-08 15:30:05 ddevault ...white?
2020-11-08 15:30:14 low-key no wait, i was thinking about something that worked the other way around
2020-11-08 15:30:17 kayw hm? it's dark for me
2020-11-08 15:30:21 low-key it's dark for me too
2020-11-08 15:30:28 ddevault oh, it respects prefers-color-scheme:dark
2020-11-08 15:30:36 kayw oh that's sweet
2020-11-08 15:30:51 low-key i was thinking a portal through which i could access http stuff on gemini
2020-11-08 15:33:07 lieu wait do you mean like the
2020-11-08 15:33:09 lieu mozz portal
2020-11-08 15:33:12 lieu or whatever it's called
2020-11-08 15:41:43 low-key oh, that's a thing?
2020-11-08 15:41:47 low-key could you share a link?
2020-11-08 15:42:18 lieu low-key: https://portal.mozz.us/gemini/gemini.circumlunar.space/software/
2020-11-08 15:42:36 ddevault low-key is looking for the opposite
2020-11-08 15:42:44 ddevault HTTP over Gemini
2020-11-08 15:42:57 low-key yeah
2020-11-08 15:43:01 ddevault there's some for specific websites here gemini://gempaper.strangled.net/mirrorlist/
2020-11-08 15:43:55 low-key thanks a lot ddevault
2020-11-08 15:44:11 low-key the why page for it covers all the reasons that i want something like this
2020-11-08 15:44:18 lieu wait HTTP over Gemini? doesn't Gemini already serve HTTP?
2020-11-08 15:44:34 ddevault what?
2020-11-08 15:44:38 lieu doesn't Gemini already serve HTML?*
2020-11-08 15:44:47 ddevault the goal is to proxy through to HTTP
2020-11-08 15:46:28 lieu i'm a bit confused
2020-11-08 15:46:30 lieu how does one do that?
2020-11-08 15:47:26 ddevault nevermind
2020-11-08 15:47:30 lieu i get the http -> gemini thing
2020-11-08 15:48:07 lieu you send a HTTP request to a HTTP server which then acts as a Gemini client and sends you back the response from a Gemini server
2020-11-08 15:49:01 lieu but i'm not sure how it would work the other way
2020-11-08 15:49:42 ew0k And the other way around is when your gemini browser asks a gemini server for a http website, which the server fetches and then serves over gemini
2020-11-08 15:51:25 ddevault https://github.com/mozilla/readability
2020-11-08 15:51:32 ddevault this could probably be used to aid in the conversion to gemtext
2020-11-08 15:51:45 lieu yes, but i was thinking that wouldn't work because GEmini clients are minimalist, right
2020-11-08 15:51:52 lieu they wouldn't be able to render a lot of the payload body
2020-11-08 15:52:50 lieu ddevault: btw I really love your blog
2020-11-08 15:53:03 ddevault thanks lieu :)
2020-11-08 15:54:02 lieu How do you decide what stuff to put on your HTTP blog and what stuff to put on Gemini?
2020-11-08 15:54:06 ddevault arbitrarily
2020-11-08 15:54:09 lieu i have already a HTTP website
2020-11-08 15:54:34 lieu i want to start a Gemini space, but i don't know what I would put on it
2020-11-08 15:54:53 lieu mirroring all my existing stuff would be a lazy and tedious thing to do
2020-11-08 15:55:51 lieu but on the other hand, if I write something good, then I want it to be on both websites
2020-11-08 15:56:03 lieu it would be rather silly to have "exclusives"
2020-11-08 15:56:41 lieu unless one were trying to encourage people to go to Gemini
2020-11-08 15:57:19 tane well, I think it should be easy to transform gmi to html, at least easier than the other way around
2020-11-08 15:57:42 lieu gmi to html is easy and hence http -> gemini proxies work
2020-11-08 15:57:55 tane doesn't that solve your problem then?
2020-11-08 15:57:59 lieu html to gmi is difficult which is why i thought gemini -> http proxies woudl be difficult
2020-11-08 15:58:08 low-key i think they're talking about what it is i want
2020-11-08 15:58:18 low-key i know it's not going to be very functional for a lot of websites
2020-11-08 15:58:18 lieu low-key: yes
2020-11-08 15:58:39 low-key and for the ones where it would work, the http site itself is clean and minimalist enough then
2020-11-08 15:58:48 low-key i just like my gemini browsers a lot
2020-11-08 15:59:05 low-key they are light and breezy and i'm looking for any excuse to stay on them rather than say firefox
2020-11-08 15:59:37 low-key ddevault's suggestion of using the code that gives you reader view is pretty much how i mean for this portal thing to work
2020-11-08 15:59:59 lieu low-key: which one are you using?
2020-11-08 16:00:00 low-key cut out all the cruft and serve it to me on amfora
2020-11-08 16:00:03 low-key amfora!
2020-11-08 16:00:05 low-key it's beautiful!
2020-11-08 16:00:09 lieu i am using bombadillo
2020-11-08 16:00:15 lieu let me check out amfora
2020-11-08 16:00:18 low-key please do
2020-11-08 16:00:23 lieu does it have vim keybinds? that's by far the most important thing for me
2020-11-08 16:00:35 lieu i need to be able to navigate it with the keyboard only
2020-11-08 16:01:01 low-key of course :)
2020-11-08 16:01:14 lieu cool, do you have a link?
2020-11-08 16:01:18 low-key https://github.com/makeworld-the-better-one/amfora
2020-11-08 16:01:41 lieu my firefox browser REALLY chugs nowadays
2020-11-08 16:01:49 lieu it is so much nicer and faster using gemini /terminal stuff
2020-11-08 16:01:50 ▬▬▶ helby has joined #gemini
2020-11-08 16:02:06 lieu i moved from VSCode to Emacs for the same reason
2020-11-08 16:02:09 lieu so i definitely get what you mean
2020-11-08 16:05:56 low-key how was the emacs move?
2020-11-08 16:06:03 low-key i've been meaning to try it out for ages now
2020-11-08 16:06:08 tane lieu, you mentioned your blogpage some minutes ago, mind sharing? :)
2020-11-08 16:06:12 low-key but i'm just too comfortable with nvim
2020-11-08 16:07:39 lieu tane: sure, lieuzhenghong.com
2020-11-08 16:07:44 tane thanks
2020-11-08 16:07:44 helby I heard that emacs has also built in text editor ;)
2020-11-08 16:07:49 lieu tane: https://lieuzhenghong.com
2020-11-08 16:08:05 lieu i was using nvim before
2020-11-08 16:08:13 lieu but like
2020-11-08 16:08:19 lieu i didn't like that it had no batteries included
2020-11-08 16:08:29 lieu also vim has like, what, 10 different plugin managers??
2020-11-08 16:08:34 lieu so i switched to vscode
2020-11-08 16:09:21 low-key well, you only have to use one of them
2020-11-08 16:09:32 lieu yes but it was confusing
2020-11-08 16:09:43 low-key and i don't mean to do anything other than text editing with my text editor
2020-11-08 16:09:46 lieu and also things like autocomplete, tab size, etc etc
2020-11-08 16:09:51 lieu line numbers
2020-11-08 16:09:57 lieu i mean yes i know there's a .vimrc
2020-11-08 16:10:01 low-key oh, if you're using emacs then there's a nice gemini client for it
2020-11-08 16:10:03 low-key elpher
2020-11-08 16:10:03 lieu but i just got tired of having to configure stuff
2020-11-08 16:10:11 lieu i tried using elpher but there's a bug with it
2020-11-08 16:10:12 helby vim is greate 30MB 'minimal' editor :D
2020-11-08 16:10:13 low-key you only have to configure it once
2020-11-08 16:10:14 lieu can't access anything
2020-11-08 16:10:25 lieu also yeah amphora is nice
2020-11-08 16:10:29 lieu much prettier than bombadillo
2020-11-08 16:10:34 low-key i wrote my config back in 2017
2020-11-08 16:10:37 lieu my normie girlfriend says it's just "text with colour"
2020-11-08 16:10:39 lieu pfft
2020-11-08 16:10:41 lieu philistine
2020-11-08 16:10:44 low-key and i just copy it over to every new machine
2020-11-08 16:11:15 helby vi/vim keybinding in anything is addictive
2020-11-08 16:11:16 lieu tane: let me know what you like and don't like, i always welcome feedback of all sorts
2020-11-08 16:11:20 lieu oh yeah absolutely
2020-11-08 16:11:23 lieu i can't live without
2020-11-08 16:11:28 lieu even on firefox I use vimium
2020-11-08 16:11:44 lieu do you guys host your own Gemini server?
2020-11-08 16:12:15 low-key helby: touche
2020-11-08 16:12:19 lieu am wondering if i should host my own Gemini server/use an existing one, and if so whther i should use a DO droplet or an actual device I own like a raspi
2020-11-08 16:12:30 low-key i have a server but it's got nothing on it right now
2020-11-08 16:12:33 low-key just the homepage
2020-11-08 16:12:50 low-key a lot of the tildes let you host a gemini capsule
2020-11-08 16:12:53 low-key so you could start there
2020-11-08 16:13:06 low-key i already had a droplet so i figured i might as well get my money's worth
2020-11-08 16:13:46 helby well but vps gives u more fun to fuckering with server and system ;)
2020-11-08 16:14:02 low-key if they already have one then yeah
2020-11-08 16:14:12 low-key else they're too expensive to just be running a gemini server
2020-11-08 16:14:18 lieu the ironic thing is that i'm a webdev by profession
2020-11-08 16:14:24 nristen has quit (Client exited)
2020-11-08 16:14:29 helby well, it can be then many things
2020-11-08 16:14:31 lieu and i actually don't know how to start a server from scratch
2020-11-08 16:14:35 helby like backup, mail server and so on
2020-11-08 16:14:35 lieu like scratch scratch
2020-11-08 16:14:48 helby some kind of 5$/month crap
2020-11-08 16:14:49 low-key you can with gemini
2020-11-08 16:15:03 low-key it's so simple that i needed nothing more than the server's man page
2020-11-08 16:15:47 lieu what server man page?
2020-11-08 16:15:53 low-key i am using gmnisrv
2020-11-08 16:15:58 low-key as my gemini server
2020-11-08 16:16:13 low-key its man page and config are all you need to host a gemini server from scratch
2020-11-08 16:16:43 lieu i see
2020-11-08 16:16:48 lieu any reason why gmnisrv
2020-11-08 16:17:07 kayw the reason I like it is because it makes certs for you
2020-11-08 16:17:08 kayw which is nice
2020-11-08 16:17:30 kayw also I'm kinda strapped for RAM, and it uses ~1M
2020-11-08 16:17:37 lieu why are you strapped for RAM
2020-11-08 16:18:00 kayw I don't have a lot of memory
2020-11-08 16:18:16 lieu what are you running your server on lol
2020-11-08 16:18:16 low-key vps tend to be strapped for ram
2020-11-08 16:18:20 lieu oh see
2020-11-08 16:18:22 kayw yeah
2020-11-08 16:18:24 lieu actually
2020-11-08 16:18:28 kayw my VPS only has ~2G of ram
2020-11-08 16:18:30 lieu can someone explain how TLS works
2020-11-08 16:18:32 lieu :/
2020-11-08 16:18:36 lieu 2G should be plenty no
2020-11-08 16:18:42 kayw well, yeah
2020-11-08 16:18:49 low-key mine only has 1G
2020-11-08 16:19:01 kayw I just don't want to reach a point where several other services are competeing for RAM
2020-11-08 16:19:08 lieu I want to build a game for Gemini
2020-11-08 16:19:15 lieu using the user input field of Gemini
2020-11-08 16:19:58 lieu somehow
2020-11-08 16:20:35 low-key and to answer your question, i'm just using gmnisrv because it's the first i heard of
2020-11-08 16:20:40 low-key and it was drew's
2020-11-08 16:20:44 helby TLS is just something what can make simple things too complicated
2020-11-08 16:21:15 lieu might have to pull out network textbook again...
2020-11-08 16:22:34 kayw speaking of gmnisrv, it's been acting wierd lately... it doesn't output any logs until i stop the service
2020-11-08 16:24:55 helby anyway my bombadillo is useless :/ most of the time it shows cert erros, not sure if it's related to using libressl instead open
2020-11-08 16:26:09 nytpu lieu: the average creator shouldn't have to deal with tls as long as your server supports half-decent cgi, right?
2020-11-08 16:27:43 nytpu i'm using jetforce for my work-in-progress text adventure and it even gives you tls client cert stuff so you just have to compare the client hash to detect a user
2020-11-08 16:28:23 kayw very cool
2020-11-08 16:29:27 lieu nytpu: i don't know what CGI is, either
2020-11-08 16:29:36 lieu nytpu: is that user auth in Gemini?
2020-11-08 16:29:47 lieu can it be done? user auth in Gemini? Persistent user auth?
2020-11-08 16:29:56 nytpu tls client certs are user authentication, but you don't need to know details about tls to use them
2020-11-08 16:30:17 nytpu luckily, because i don't know anything about tls either
2020-11-08 16:31:23 nytpu cgi is used to generate pages dynamically, so the server passes you evironment variables with details about the request, you generate a page (however simple or complex you want) and print it out and the server serves that to the end user
2020-11-08 16:32:02 lieu i see. Is this how GUS returns its search results?
2020-11-08 16:32:25 nytpu yeah
2020-11-08 16:33:07 lieu why is it a special technology actually
2020-11-08 16:33:13 lieu why does it have a name
2020-11-08 16:33:21 nytpu i'm trying to find a good resource that i found previously explaining cgi in gemini
2020-11-08 16:33:23 lieu because say if i were to write a regular python http server
2020-11-08 16:33:30 lieu i can handle a get request and return whatever i want
2020-11-08 16:34:01 nytpu oh yeah, if you're writing the server from scratch you can return whatever you want, but if you're using somebody else's server you'd usually just serve static pages
2020-11-08 16:34:08 lieu ah okay
2020-11-08 16:34:17 nytpu but if that server supports cgi you can just make a script without having to write a full server yourself
2020-11-08 16:34:54 lieu makes sense
2020-11-08 16:35:12 lieu anyway, what do you know about user auth in gemini
2020-11-08 16:35:24 lieu could we have things like persistent state?
2020-11-08 16:35:47 lieu let me pull out the gemini spec...
2020-11-08 16:37:30 nytpu yeah, there's tls client certificates that a user can enable to create a persistent state
2020-11-08 16:38:07 nytpu and if your game needs a client certificate there's 60
2020-11-08 16:38:58 lieu it looks like i have to read up what exactly is a TLS client certificate
2020-11-08 16:39:21 lieu you could probably do basic user auth by sending 10 and 11
2020-11-08 16:39:33 lieu 10 for username 11 for password
2020-11-08 16:39:38 nytpu yeah
2020-11-08 16:39:49 lieu but then what
2020-11-08 16:39:55 lieu that wouldn't be persistent right
2020-11-08 16:40:01 nytpu i can throw together an example cgi script showing how to use client certificates and do basic state if you want
2020-11-08 16:40:10 lieu everytime the client made a new get request you would have to reauth
2020-11-08 16:40:19 nytpu and yeah, client certificates are what you need to use to get persistent state
2020-11-08 16:40:31 lieu that's veyr nice of you to offer, but I know neither CGI nor TLS
2020-11-08 16:40:43 nytpu what language would you want to work in?
2020-11-08 16:41:00 nytpu cgi can be any executable that reads environment variables and writes to stdout
2020-11-08 16:41:10 nytpu usually i use bash or python, but you could use anything
2020-11-08 16:41:48 lieu i am proficient in python
2020-11-08 16:42:20 nytpu that's perfect then, i'm digging up an example script i made, give me a sec
2020-11-08 16:43:47 tane lieu, interesting articles. When you're done with the path tracer in julia I'd be interested to read about your actual julia workflow :) I've found it disturbingly difficult to work with it due to the inability to redefine types in the Main namespace.
2020-11-08 16:48:23 lieu has quit (Ping timeout: 120 seconds)
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2020-11-08 16:51:23 lieu tane: thanks for reading! unfortunately the project is on hiatus as Ross has just started his MMathPhys :(
2020-11-08 16:51:29 lieu What are you working on in Julia?
2020-11-08 16:52:08 tane I was just playing around with it a bit, implementing some simple TSP heuristics. I wanted to evaluate its suitability for similar tasks
2020-11-08 16:53:47 tane while some things are really simple to do, I'm not satisfied with the overall workflow. I think it suits my needs for prototyping, but that's it I guess :)
2020-11-08 16:54:31 lieu damn, that's cool
2020-11-08 16:54:37 lieu Julia came heavily recommended to me
2020-11-08 16:54:48 lieu by a professor I was coauthing with
2020-11-08 16:55:00 lieu recently I've been trying to learn Rust, though
2020-11-08 16:57:00 tane that's nice. the pro of C++ is the availability of high quality libraries. for instance: in Julia there's the LightGraphs package, which is nicely done but relies on LP-solvers to solve minimum-cost flow problems, which sucks performance wise. So I'd better stick to C++ for anything non-trivial
2020-11-08 16:57:50 nytpu i actually like rust as a language, but the support for architectures other than x86_64 and arm is dissapointing
2020-11-08 16:58:13 nytpu so i'd recommend c++ as well
2020-11-08 16:58:27 tane anyway, prototyping smaller algorithms is still possible. I guess I'd need to invest some time to get familiar with the DataFrames and other useful packages
2020-11-08 17:01:08 lieu what other architectures do you need to support apart from x8664 and arm?
2020-11-08 17:09:02 nytpu well i often write for a variety of architectures, and rust claims to be a systems programming language so i expect it to support many architectures
2020-11-08 17:16:55 lieu nytpu: wow, cool, are you an embedded systems progrmamer?
2020-11-08 17:17:08 nytpu well, not as a job but i do it for fun a lot
2020-11-08 17:20:01 jcowan "ANSI" escape sequences: it's true that not all of them make sense in text/gemini, but some do, so it's not entirely a terminal model.
2020-11-08 17:20:09 nytpu oh yeah here's my example cgi script: https://ttm.sh/deA.py
2020-11-08 17:21:04 lieu oh hey
2020-11-08 17:21:07 lieu that's really simple
2020-11-08 17:21:09 lieu cool
2020-11-08 17:22:05 nytpu and that's designed for the jetforce gemini server: https://github.com/michael-lazar/jetforce
2020-11-08 17:22:12 nytpu but it should work anywhere with minimal modifications
2020-11-08 17:22:20 xfnw oo cool
2020-11-08 17:29:22 lieu nytpu: thanks a lot for the scripts
2020-11-08 17:29:26 lieu going to bed now lads
2020-11-08 17:29:28 lieu seeya
2020-11-08 17:29:30 ddevault based on the earlier discussion about using readability to convert HTML pages into gemtext
2020-11-08 17:29:33 ddevault I whipped this up:
2020-11-08 17:29:35 ddevault gemini://drewdevault.com/cgi-bin/hn.py
2020-11-08 17:29:44 jcowan for example, ESC [ 2 F justifies following text by inserting spaces, ESC [ 3 F justifies it with space between letters, and ESC [ 0 F turns justification off. There's nothing terminal-ish about that.
2020-11-08 17:29:44 lieu wow
2020-11-08 17:29:45 low-key <3
2020-11-08 17:29:47 lieu you work fast
2020-11-08 17:30:19 lieu ddevault: I get a failed to connect to the server error
2020-11-08 17:30:22 ddevault refresh
2020-11-08 17:30:26 ddevault gmnisrv still has some bugs
2020-11-08 17:30:44 low-key This is just absolutely fantastic!
2020-11-08 17:30:48 lieu dude thats so cool
2020-11-08 17:30:49 lieu awesome
2020-11-08 17:31:20 lieu oh i just realised that
2020-11-08 17:31:24 ddevault https://git.sr.ht/~sircmpwn/gci-scripts/tree/master/hn.py
2020-11-08 17:31:26 ddevault and https://git.sr.ht/~sircmpwn/gci-scripts/tree/master/web2gmi.js
2020-11-08 17:31:28 ddevault do the work
2020-11-08 17:31:38 lieu there is probably no way to look at the HN comments rather than the links
2020-11-08 17:31:46 ddevault I might implement comments later, idrc
2020-11-08 17:31:56 ddevault the lack of nested comments in gemtext would make it annoying to do well
2020-11-08 17:32:47 low-key i see something like this being most useful for wikis
2020-11-08 17:32:59 low-key to peruse them, that is
2020-11-08 17:33:10 low-key to have arch wiki on gemini
2020-11-08 17:33:34 lieu yeah or any sort of documentation
2020-11-08 17:33:44 lieu browsing the Python documentation on firefox just chugs
2020-11-08 17:34:03 nihilazo would be really cool to have the archwiki on gemini
2020-11-08 17:34:28 lieu does readability preserve tables?
2020-11-08 17:34:37 nytpu i believe so?
2020-11-08 17:35:30 low-key i've been dreaming about arch wiki on gemini since i discovered gemini
2020-11-08 17:36:34 ddevault low-key: gemini://drewdevault.com/cgi-bin/hn.py/view?https%3A//wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Sway
2020-11-08 17:36:36 ddevault works pretty well
2020-11-08 17:36:50 ddevault I might route this back to a general purpose html to gemtext portal, rather than HN specific
2020-11-08 17:36:59 ddevault I went with HN because at first I thought the conversion would only really work on articles
2020-11-08 17:37:20 ddevault so trying to do a built in nudge to avoid encouraging you to find broken pages
2020-11-08 17:38:01 low-key i feel like this is a watershed moment for gemini
2020-11-08 17:38:06 lieu ddevault: looks great
2020-11-08 17:38:06 low-key or at least for what it can be for me
2020-11-08 17:38:15 low-key thanks so much for this and all else you do ddevault!
2020-11-08 17:38:40 ddevault ^^
2020-11-08 17:39:22 lieu ddevault: what happens if a page is not Readable?
2020-11-08 17:39:51 ddevault it just breaks unelegantly
2020-11-08 17:40:17 low-key i was wondering what the arch wiki experience would be like with gemini wanting each link on its line
2020-11-08 17:40:22 low-key must admit it works really well
2020-11-08 17:41:02 low-key is this something that the arch folk would be interested in?
2020-11-08 17:41:11 low-key Maintaining a gemini mirror of the wiki?
2020-11-08 17:42:10 nihilazo would be cool
2020-11-08 17:42:14 lieu low-key: but isn't the point of this not to have a mirror
2020-11-08 17:42:33 lieu so that you can have your canonical content but still read it over Gemini
2020-11-08 17:43:14 low-key well, a mirror would still have them converting it over. You'd just get a neat gemini address
2020-11-08 17:43:38 nytpu something like gemini wikipedia where it's still dynamic but instead of
2020-11-08 17:43:40 nytpu gemini://drewdevault.com/cgi-bin/hn.py/view?https%3A//wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Sway
2020-11-08 17:43:52 nytpu you get gemini://drewdevault.com/cgi-bin/archwiki.py/Sway
2020-11-08 17:44:00 ddevault patches welcome to my gci-scripts repository
2020-11-08 17:44:00 low-key yeah
2020-11-08 17:44:13 ddevault to refactor this to /cgi-bin/web.sh?<url> and update hn.py accordingly
2020-11-08 17:44:23 ddevault would also be nice to rewrite links in the converted articles to also go through the gemtext converter
2020-11-08 17:44:41 nihilazo that reminded me that I need to get git send-email set up
2020-11-08 17:45:11 nytpu do it, it's worth it
2020-11-08 17:45:16 lieu ddevault: don't you already do it here? output += `=> ${link.href} ${desc}\n`;
2020-11-08 17:45:27 ddevault no, that just puts in the HTTP URL
2020-11-08 17:45:43 ddevault it has to be rewritten to gemini://drewdevault.com/cgi-bin/hn.py/view? + link.href url encoded
2020-11-08 17:46:04 lieu ah i see
2020-11-08 17:46:28 lieu i'm surprised at how well readability works
2020-11-08 17:48:06 nytpu i have it bound in qutebrowser and it seems to work pretty universally, which is a miracle considering how websites are now
2020-11-08 17:49:04 nihilazo hmm, my git send-email isn't working. That sucks. Not sure how to fix it because it all seems good. Is there a channel here that i'd be better going to to ask about that?
2020-11-08 17:49:35 ddevault https://git-send-email.io
2020-11-08 17:49:35 nytpu #helpdesk? tilde.chat is pretty casual though, you can really just ask questions anywhere
2020-11-08 17:50:57 nihilazo I followed the instructions on git-send-email and it's not working. Maybe there's something that needs to be configured for migadu that isn't in the config there
2020-11-08 17:51:11 ddevault lemme see your git config
2020-11-08 17:51:56 lieu i just realised that i started using migadu because ddevault plugged it
2020-11-08 17:52:08 low-key where did they write about it?
2020-11-08 17:52:20 nihilazo sure, should I DM it? The git config (idk what the proper IRC term is for a DM)
2020-11-08 17:52:22 lieu let me see if i can find it
2020-11-08 17:52:50 ddevault nihilazo: yeah
2020-11-08 17:52:53 ddevault and we call it a PM
2020-11-08 17:52:53 lieu low-key: https://drewdevault.com/2020/06/19/Mail-service-provider-recommendations.html
2020-11-08 17:53:30 low-key i should really go through the entire blog
2020-11-08 17:53:34 low-key thanks lieu :)
2020-11-08 17:53:48 ddevault warning: not all of it is good
2020-11-08 17:53:49 lieu not at all
2020-11-08 17:54:03 lieu I think he can be a bit extreme with his views about free software but in general i like his blog a lot
2020-11-08 17:54:37 lieu i am looking at converting .org files to .gmi files right now
2020-11-08 17:55:29 nytpu i find that my tastes in software seem to align with his scarily often
2020-11-08 17:56:09 nytpu like i use a lot of the software he recommends, but i discovered it independently before i even knew he used it
2020-11-08 17:57:19 lieu which ones?
2020-11-08 18:01:13 nytpu not all of these a specifically software but: qutebrowser, migadu, git send-email, gemini, agpl
2020-11-08 18:01:46 lieu why do you like gemini
2020-11-08 18:02:02 lieu i like it a lot, but i cannot explain why, and i cannot explain it to my friends
2020-11-08 18:02:15 nytpu i like the fact that it's dedicated to content
2020-11-08 18:02:16 lieu why do i want to be part of gemini
2020-11-08 18:02:29 nytpu like, the web is filled with sites that look pretty but don't have *anything* of value
2020-11-08 18:02:50 nytpu when, since gemini doesn't let you do a lot with styling, you have to have good content if you want people to read your stuff
2020-11-08 18:03:02 nihilazo tbh, the thing that attracted me to gemini was just that it isn't the web
2020-11-08 18:03:36 nytpu well, that's a good draw
2020-11-08 18:03:38 nihilazo because I have been slowly growing a hate for the web, especially since I bought a tablet that is a modern device from less than 6 months ago and web browsers still somehow run slow on it
2020-11-08 18:03:54 alex11 most websites don't look pretty :/
2020-11-08 18:04:01 alex11 between the autoplaying videos and stuff
2020-11-08 18:04:05 lieu you know what we could do with the proxy ddvefault just built
2020-11-08 18:04:07 nihilazo everything else runs fine, but websites can still somehow run slow, and I've always hated "web apps" and especially developing stuff for the web
2020-11-08 18:04:10 lieu we could do DDG on it kek
2020-11-08 18:04:37 nytpu https://tilde.zone/web/statuses/105164057317850613
2020-11-08 18:04:43 nytpu just me every day
2020-11-08 18:05:19 nytpu i used to have dozens of videos open in mpv at any given time, but a single video open in a browser and all of a sudden my fans go up to mach 10
2020-11-08 18:05:52 low-key his recommendations have sure been spot on for me
2020-11-08 18:05:55 nihilazo I open all my videos in mpv
2020-11-08 18:06:04 lieu what is mpv?
2020-11-08 18:06:15 nihilazo think vlc but not bad
2020-11-08 18:06:20 alex11 and not slow
2020-11-08 18:06:25 nihilazo it's just a desktop video player
2020-11-08 18:06:27 tane lieu, the athlete sister of mplayer
2020-11-08 18:06:29 alex11 not sure why people like vlc when mpv exists
2020-11-08 18:06:30 ddevault gemini://drewdevault.com/cgi-bin/hn.py/view?https%3A//git.sr.ht/~sircmpwn/gci-scripts/tree/master/hn.py
2020-11-08 18:06:36 ddevault this readability converter works alarmingly well
2020-11-08 18:06:38 nytpu the umpv script is a lifesaver, now i only have one or two mpv instances open
2020-11-08 18:06:54 nytpu https://github.com/mpv-player/mpv/blob/master/TOOLS/umpv
2020-11-08 18:08:08 lieu ddevault: is there a reason why you chose to use Alpine over Arch for your new workstation?
2020-11-08 18:08:13 ddevault arch sucks
2020-11-08 18:08:17 ddevault alpine sucks a lot less
2020-11-08 18:08:23 lieu why does arch suck?
2020-11-08 18:08:26 ddevault bloat
2020-11-08 18:08:28 ddevault unstable
2020-11-08 18:08:32 lieu bloat????
2020-11-08 18:08:33 ddevault gnu
2020-11-08 18:08:37 ddevault systemd
2020-11-08 18:08:50 lieu i thought arch was meant to be like the no-batteries-included distro
2020-11-08 18:08:55 nytpu i've never had stability issues but systemd was the number one cause of problems on my arch system
2020-11-08 18:08:58 ddevault arch includes a shitload of batteries
2020-11-08 18:09:00 nytpu but i went with artix
2020-11-08 18:09:01 lieu fwiw i'm a normie using ubuntu
2020-11-08 18:09:01 nihilazo I'm on arch rn because it works for me and I haven't felt the need to install anything else
2020-11-08 18:09:20 ddevault my / partition on alpine is 9.7G
2020-11-08 18:09:22 lieu well, pop!OS actually
2020-11-08 18:09:26 ddevault I have 136 packages installed
2020-11-08 18:09:38 nihilazo I tried installing void, my network card didn't work and my terminal emulator wasn't available in repos, X11 wouldn't start properly
2020-11-08 18:09:41 ddevault (texlive, firefox, chromium, and qt are probably the biggest ones)
2020-11-08 18:09:44 low-key i've been arch for a while now and never had any issues but my usage tends to be very conservative
2020-11-08 18:09:52 nihilazo (I don't want to be using X but I have a shit GPU)
2020-11-08 18:09:53 ddevault (and font-noto-cjk)
2020-11-08 18:10:03 lieu will alpine linux work with laptops
2020-11-08 18:10:06 ddevault alpine does what I want, and only what I want
2020-11-08 18:10:14 nihilazo I want to replace my GPU with something wayland friendly but idk what to get
2020-11-08 18:10:16 ddevault sure, I use it on my laptops
2020-11-08 18:10:16 nihilazo certainly not nvidia
2020-11-08 18:10:24 lieu no driver issues
2020-11-08 18:10:26 lieu ?
2020-11-08 18:10:28 low-key nytpu: do you use qutebrowser exclusively?
2020-11-08 18:10:30 insep ddevault: apk-tools can be a bit tricky sometimes though
2020-11-08 18:10:32 nihilazo but idk what else but nvidia I should use
2020-11-08 18:10:34 ddevault I dunno, I only use thinkpads
2020-11-08 18:10:34 nytpu lowkey: yeah
2020-11-08 18:10:40 ddevault which are well supported by everything
2020-11-08 18:10:48 lieu is qutebrowser slow?
2020-11-08 18:10:48 insep and i wouldn't say alpine is stable, at least not on edge
2020-11-08 18:10:55 lieu the vim keybinds are great
2020-11-08 18:10:58 nihilazo like, idk what cards have the best support for cheap re: wayland and stuff
2020-11-08 18:10:59 ddevault it's more stable than arch
2020-11-08 18:11:01 nytpu no, i wouldn't say so
2020-11-08 18:11:04 ddevault and yes, I run !edge in production
2020-11-08 18:11:07 insep stuff breaks often on edge, although now it's not as often than before
2020-11-08 18:11:12 lieu but not sure whether i should move from ffox with vimium --> qutebrowser
2020-11-08 18:11:16 ddevault and in production alpine has never broken on me
2020-11-08 18:11:19 nytpu it's python, but the actual browser stuff is qtwebengine so it's still fast
2020-11-08 18:11:21 nihilazo I like qutebrowser
2020-11-08 18:11:28 ddevault qute is buggy on alpine
2020-11-08 18:11:30 ddevault but I use it anyway, fuck it
2020-11-08 18:12:08 tane so, the answer to a slow firefox is a browser written in python?
2020-11-08 18:12:08 nytpu the main downside is it's based off of chromium, but it's not like there's any other good options out there anyways
2020-11-08 18:12:18 ddevault qutebrowser is not the answer to a slow firefox
2020-11-08 18:12:25 lieu python absolutely chugs for me nowadays ... don't know why
2020-11-08 18:12:28 lieu could be that i am pushing 4K
2020-11-08 18:12:30 ddevault qutebrowser is the answer to wanting a customizable browser with a native keyboard driven interface
2020-11-08 18:12:41 lieu ddevault: how is alpine with hidpi?
2020-11-08 18:12:48 ddevault I just use sway, and it works fine
2020-11-08 18:12:53 ddevault really has nothing to do with your distro
2020-11-08 18:13:14 nihilazo I use sway on my tablet and it's great
2020-11-08 18:13:18 nihilazo unfortunately can't use it on my desktop
2020-11-08 18:13:19 kayw sway++
2020-11-08 18:13:29 lieu your tablet runs linux?
2020-11-08 18:13:32 nihilazo because past me had no idea what the fuck he was doing and bought an nvidia gpu
2020-11-08 18:13:38 nihilazo yeah my tablet is running arch
2020-11-08 18:13:43 lieu that's badass
2020-11-08 18:13:47 lieu how'd you do that
2020-11-08 18:13:55 lieu oh man
2020-11-08 18:13:56 nihilazo it's the pinetab so it was designed as a linux tablet
2020-11-08 18:13:59 nihilazo I just installed arch on it
2020-11-08 18:14:05 lieu i might just wipe my partition and install alpine
2020-11-08 18:14:05 low-key wow
2020-11-08 18:14:10 lieu would be a good learning experience
2020-11-08 18:14:15 lieu that is cool
2020-11-08 18:14:16 lieu let me google it
2020-11-08 18:14:22 ddevault should have put pmOS on it
2020-11-08 18:14:42 lieu is it difficult to install alpine
2020-11-08 18:14:45 ddevault no
2020-11-08 18:14:53 ddevault it is easier than arch
2020-11-08 18:14:56 ericonr tane: qutebrowser uses qt5 webengine
2020-11-08 18:15:01 ericonr it's disguised chromium
2020-11-08 18:15:11 tane heh, ok
2020-11-08 18:15:22 lieu has anyone heard on nixOS
2020-11-08 18:15:25 low-key i have somehow always been intimidated by alpine
2020-11-08 18:15:28 nihilazo I might try pmOS but the thing with arch for me is I have never felt the need to move to something else
2020-11-08 18:15:30 lieu herad of*
2020-11-08 18:15:31 nihilazo it works for me
2020-11-08 18:15:32 nytpu lieu: heard of it, but know nothign about it
2020-11-08 18:15:40 nytpu s/nothign/nothing/
2020-11-08 18:15:53 ericonr I feel the obligation to plug void
2020-11-08 18:15:55 nihilazo like, I could install pmOS but I don't see why I would when arch works
2020-11-08 18:15:56 ddevault nixos is the operating system of choice for sociopaths
2020-11-08 18:16:00 nihilazo void was a broken mess for me
2020-11-08 18:16:07 ddevault void is a broken mess
2020-11-08 18:16:12 ddevault but at least it's not manjaro
2020-11-08 18:16:19 tane manjaro works fine :P
2020-11-08 18:16:19 ericonr eh, works plenty well for me
2020-11-08 18:16:21 lieu "declarative system configuration model" sounds good
2020-11-08 18:16:22 ddevault xbps sucks
2020-11-08 18:16:39 ericonr parts of it do, I don't disagree
2020-11-08 18:16:45 low-key how much of a difference does alpine's alternative C library make?
2020-11-08 18:16:57 lieu why is nixos the OS of choice for sociopaths? lmao
2020-11-08 18:17:08 ddevault musl libc is very good
2020-11-08 18:17:08 low-key that's what made me think it's not for people who don't know what that means to begin with
2020-11-08 18:17:12 ericonr low-key: musl can be sucky if you need proprietary software
2020-11-08 18:17:20 ddevault why the fuck do you need proprietary software
2020-11-08 18:17:25 ericonr and seccomp using software won't always be tested on musl
2020-11-08 18:17:27 ddevault regarding musl gemini://drewdevault.com/2020/09/25/A-story-of-two-libcs.gmi
2020-11-08 18:17:30 ericonr so you get stupid errors
2020-11-08 18:18:04 low-key and busybox is the coreutils replacement, right?
2020-11-08 18:18:20 low-key as far as i know, those are the only major changes coming from arch? apart from finally leaving systemd behind
2020-11-08 18:18:22 nihilazo musl is cool but I heard that it breaks things, also i need proprietary software for a lot of things
2020-11-08 18:18:37 ddevault no one "needs" proprietary software
2020-11-08 18:18:37 nihilazo mostly because I have to operate within a college that forces microsoft shit down my throat
2020-11-08 18:18:41 ddevault get your shit together bro
2020-11-08 18:18:48 lieu yeah proprietary software sometimes is a necessary evil
2020-11-08 18:18:57 nihilazo if I didn't have it I'd be kicked out of my fuckin college
2020-11-08 18:18:58 lieu if you work with normies
2020-11-08 18:19:00 ericonr ddevault: fwiw
2020-11-08 18:19:13 lieu i mean if you're in this linux bubble it's very easy
2020-11-08 18:19:26 nihilazo must be a nice life to be able to live with no proprietary software, but if you work with anybody outside the free software space you are often forced into it
2020-11-08 18:19:29 ericonr I kinda disagree with that post, since glibc's locale support has made it actually internationalized
2020-11-08 18:19:39 ddevault any locale other than UTF-8 is braindead
2020-11-08 18:19:41 ddevault it's a feature, not a bug
2020-11-08 18:19:46 nihilazo I'd agree with that actually
2020-11-08 18:19:50 nihilazo fuck anything except UTF-8
2020-11-08 18:19:57 nihilazo has no reason to exist in 2020
2020-11-08 18:20:01 lieu no love for UTF-16?
2020-11-08 18:20:12 ddevault no
2020-11-08 18:20:15 ddevault no love for UTF-16.
2020-11-08 18:20:17 ehmry yea, localization makes libc's hard to maintain
2020-11-08 18:20:26 ericonr UTF-8 = great; but glibc's strong focus in internalization has made it actually provide that support
2020-11-08 18:20:31 ericonr I don't care that the design sucks
2020-11-08 18:20:36 ericonr at least it's there
2020-11-08 18:20:41 nytpu locales in c are such a shitshow no matter what libc though
2020-11-08 18:20:41 ddevault that's bloody stupid
2020-11-08 18:20:44 low-key haha, the way the tale of two libc post ended :P
2020-11-08 18:20:47 ddevault you need to justify the feature before you go implementing it
2020-11-08 18:20:53 nihilazo if I could use like, 9front or some shit as my daily OS I would
2020-11-08 18:20:54 ddevault and !UTF-8 support is no longer justifiable
2020-11-08 18:21:01 nihilazo if I could use a systemd-free distro with musl I would
2020-11-08 18:21:15 ericonr well you can always get yourself a glibc chroot
2020-11-08 18:21:16 nihilazo but I need to exist in the world where nvidia GPUs exist and my college makes me install microsoft shit
2020-11-08 18:21:19 ▬▬▶ insep_ has joined #gemini
2020-11-08 18:21:22 ericonr that's what I also do
2020-11-08 18:21:31 nihilazo and my wireless card needs a blob driver, and I want to play video games
2020-11-08 18:21:31 nytpu i'm doing fine without systemd despite the shit i have to use for university too
2020-11-08 18:21:37 ddevault you're paying for college
2020-11-08 18:21:40 ddevault make a fucking stand, coward
2020-11-08 18:21:51 lieu lol
2020-11-08 18:21:54 nihilazo if I made a stand I'd get kicked out
2020-11-08 18:21:59 ericonr nihilazo: blob drivers don't care about your libc
2020-11-08 18:21:59 ddevault coward
2020-11-08 18:22:03 lieu what's wrong with systemd
2020-11-08 18:22:07 ddevault what isn't wrong with systemd
2020-11-08 18:22:09 nihilazo I literally would be unable to visit over 50% of my lessons without microsoft stuff
2020-11-08 18:22:23 nytpu bloat and eating up all sorts of other shit that used to be standalone
2020-11-08 18:22:27 ehmry locales are even worse then its seems, because post-xlocale locale is something thread specific
2020-11-08 18:22:27 ddevault if all you're learning about is proprietary microsoft bullshit then what are you actually getting out of it
2020-11-08 18:22:29 lieu nihilazo: what sort of microsoft stuff do you need to use?
2020-11-08 18:22:29 alex11 systemd is polarizing, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle
2020-11-08 18:22:37 lieu like Teams?
2020-11-08 18:22:42 lieu or outlook365?
2020-11-08 18:22:50 nihilazo lieu: teams, along with the entire office 365 suite
2020-11-08 18:22:51 nytpu and the dev is the shittiest foss developer as of now
2020-11-08 18:23:02 lieu nihilazo: my condolences
2020-11-08 18:23:06 nihilazo because I can't just make my notes in a text file like a human fucking being
2020-11-08 18:23:11 nihilazo I have to maek them in onenote
2020-11-08 18:23:14 nihilazo because the college says so
2020-11-08 18:23:15 ddevault refuse
2020-11-08 18:23:18 ddevault explain why
2020-11-08 18:23:22 ddevault coward
2020-11-08 18:23:23 tane lol..
2020-11-08 18:23:28 nihilazo rn I make my notes in a text file then copy them when I need to
2020-11-08 18:23:42 nihilazo but if I refused I'd just be kicked out. Like, there is no stand I can make here
2020-11-08 18:23:44 ddevault their obscene requirements are inhibiting your learning ability
2020-11-08 18:23:47 lieu i cant believe that policy is actually a thing
2020-11-08 18:23:53 nihilazo the college is literally sponsored by microsoft
2020-11-08 18:23:58 insep_ has quit (quit: https://web.tilde.chat - thelounge)
2020-11-08 18:23:59 ddevault so drop out
2020-11-08 18:23:59 lieu "students must make their notes in onenote"
2020-11-08 18:24:01 lieu lol
2020-11-08 18:24:02 nytpu is that a place you want to be getting your education
2020-11-08 18:24:03 ddevault not like you're learning anyting useful anyway
2020-11-08 18:24:05 nihilazo they have a "microsoft concept suite" where everybody learns shit on surface tablets
2020-11-08 18:24:06 lieu what college do you go to
2020-11-08 18:24:10 lieu wait wtf
2020-11-08 18:24:12 lieu ???
2020-11-08 18:24:14 lieu this can't be real
2020-11-08 18:24:20 lieu this reads like a dystopian SF
2020-11-08 18:24:20 nihilazo yeah they're fucking paid off by microsoft
2020-11-08 18:24:25 nihilazo their IT shit is done on tablets
2020-11-08 18:24:27 nytpu seriously, getting kicked out of there seems like they're doing you a favor
2020-11-08 18:24:29 nihilazo like jesus christ
2020-11-08 18:24:32 lieu lmaoo
2020-11-08 18:24:36 lieu what are you studying in college
2020-11-08 18:24:38 lieu what college is this
2020-11-08 18:24:39 nihilazo there's nowhere else for me to go around here, it's the only college for ages
2020-11-08 18:24:41 lieu what's your major
2020-11-08 18:24:48 insep nihilazo: if you really need proprietary stuff on х86_64, use gcompat
2020-11-08 18:24:50 ddevault you don't need a degree to into tech
2020-11-08 18:24:56 nihilazo this is also UK college if I'm confusing people
2020-11-08 18:25:10 nihilazo which is after HS but before degree
2020-11-08 18:25:12 nihilazo and mandatoruy
2020-11-08 18:25:16 lieu this is wild
2020-11-08 18:25:19 nihilazo s/mandatoruy/mandatory
2020-11-08 18:25:20 lieu you mean sixth form, right
2020-11-08 18:25:22 nihilazo ye
2020-11-08 18:25:24 lieu i see
2020-11-08 18:25:25 ddevault if it's mandatory you can't get kicked out
2020-11-08 18:25:36 lieu i studied in the UK fwiw
2020-11-08 18:25:37 tane found the loop hole..
2020-11-08 18:25:49 nytpu ddevault: seriously, i
2020-11-08 18:26:12 lieu but seriously lmao @ "microsoft concept suite"
2020-11-08 18:26:13 nytpu 'm considering just dropping out and making some sort of shitty web dashboard, selling it for millions, and then doing my own thing
2020-11-08 18:26:29 tane I'd not recommend it
2020-11-08 18:26:31 nytpu how the fuck did i manage to hit enter in the middle of that message?
2020-11-08 18:26:37 lieu nytpu: you're in college too?
2020-11-08 18:26:45 alex11 because ' and enter are right next to each other
2020-11-08 18:26:56 ddevault reminds me of a classic bash.org quote
2020-11-08 18:27:07 ddevault http://bash.org/?670375
2020-11-08 18:27:11 ddevault bash.org over gemini when
2020-11-08 18:27:12 nihilazo if I could like, tell the college I wasn't using microsoft stuff, I would. But I can't bc literally half my lessons are exclusively on teams
2020-11-08 18:27:22 ddevault https://git.sr.ht/~sircmpwn/bash-scraper
2020-11-08 18:27:25 alex11 bash.org isn't funny to me, a lot of it is forced
2020-11-08 18:27:28 alex11 some gems, of coursew
2020-11-08 18:27:29 alex11 course
2020-11-08 18:27:40 nihilazo bash.org over gemini when you make it, you're the guy who keeps telling people to submit patches themself instead of asking for features :P
2020-11-08 18:28:13 ddevault I think my 2-3 visits to bash.org per year are not yet enough motivation to go through with that lol
2020-11-08 18:28:56 nihilazo fair
2020-11-08 18:29:15 alex11 it's supposed to be 'funny, spontaneous conversations that emerged' not 'people being genuinely shitty on irc'
2020-11-08 18:29:20 nihilazo now I'm wondering what actually would happen if I refused to use teams
2020-11-08 18:29:24 ddevault it has both, alex11
2020-11-08 18:29:28 alex11 sadly
2020-11-08 18:29:31 ddevault look in the mirror, you've got a chip on your shoulder
2020-11-08 18:29:38 lieu eh
2020-11-08 18:29:44 lieu i think you should just finish your sixth form
2020-11-08 18:29:48 tane indeed
2020-11-08 18:29:49 lieu i think shit just gets better in uni
2020-11-08 18:30:03 lieu no stupid requirements
2020-11-08 18:30:13 ericonr depends on the uni
2020-11-08 18:30:19 lieu i wrote all my essays in latex
2020-11-08 18:30:23 lieu nobody gave a shit
2020-11-08 18:30:35 lieu actually they liked that my essays were in latex fwiw
2020-11-08 18:30:38 ericonr "please deliver the simulink file you used"
2020-11-08 18:31:22 nihilazo I have no idea what i want to do after sixth form
2020-11-08 18:31:36 nihilazo because I don't want to work in tech in $CURRENT_YEAR
2020-11-08 18:31:46 lieu if you're on this board you probably like tech right
2020-11-08 18:31:49 lieu CS is a good bet
2020-11-08 18:31:52 lieu you don't have to be a webdev
2020-11-08 18:31:57 lieu you can do embedded
2020-11-08 18:32:01 lieu or low-level stuff
2020-11-08 18:32:05 nihilazo I do like tech, but I do not want to study it or work in it because shit's boring
2020-11-08 18:32:16 nihilazo my approach to tech is to fuck around with the random stuff I think is cool
2020-11-08 18:32:16 lieu nah CS isn't boring
2020-11-08 18:32:27 ericonr internet of shit :)
2020-11-08 18:32:43 nihilazo I picked CS for sixth form and it was garbage, dropped it super quick, nothing I study now is nything to do with tech
2020-11-08 18:32:56 nihilazo honestly I see myself probably ending up avoiding tech really. Because 99% of it sucks
2020-11-08 18:33:05 nihilazo and the 1% of it that doesn't suck still kinda sucks
2020-11-08 18:33:07 lieu my friends are in HFT firms doing very performance critical stuff in cpp
2020-11-08 18:33:15 lieu very interesting and well paid work
2020-11-08 18:33:25 lieu kind of useless work if you ask me
2020-11-08 18:33:30 lieu but w/e
2020-11-08 18:33:37 ericonr lol very interesting
2020-11-08 18:33:45 lieu what are you doing now in sixth form?
2020-11-08 18:33:47 ericonr it's as interesting as cryptocurrency
2020-11-08 18:33:50 lieu which A levels?
2020-11-08 18:34:00 ericonr "let's throw brute force into this useless thing"
2020-11-08 18:34:13 nihilazo sociology, politics, and philosophy A level
2020-11-08 18:34:14 tane ericonr, have you worked the sector?
2020-11-08 18:34:22 nihilazo aka three subjects with fuck all career potential
2020-11-08 18:34:24 lieu huh
2020-11-08 18:34:27 lieu do PPE then
2020-11-08 18:34:29 lieu that's what I did
2020-11-08 18:34:34 ericonr tane: which one? IoT or HFT?
2020-11-08 18:34:36 nihilazo PPE?
2020-11-08 18:34:41 tane ericonr, HFT
2020-11-08 18:34:48 ericonr nope
2020-11-08 18:34:54 ddevault please don't get into HFT
2020-11-08 18:35:00 ddevault do something which improves society
2020-11-08 18:35:06 lieu https://www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate/courses-listing/philosophy-politics-and-economics
2020-11-08 18:35:08 tane lol
2020-11-08 18:35:10 ericonr burn down trade centers :)
2020-11-08 18:35:15 lieu yeah i agree
2020-11-08 18:35:19 lieu HFT is useless
2020-11-08 18:35:34 ddevault it would be better to study logistics, planning, chemistry, etc, with the aim of burning down trade centers :)
2020-11-08 18:36:00 lieu nihilazo: PPE is philo/politics/econs so you'd have 2 of the 3
2020-11-08 18:36:01 tane well, most fields are double-edged swords
2020-11-08 18:36:34 lieu if you enjoy the philo/pol that you do then it's a good shout IMO
2020-11-08 18:36:42 nihilazo sociology is kinda insane as a subject at A level in a way
2020-11-08 18:36:56 nihilazo because they teach marx and stuff
2020-11-08 18:37:07 tane which is good, so you know why it's wrong
2020-11-08 18:37:22 nihilazo which is kinda weird considering how much other areas are being cracked down on for "anti-capitalist content" or whatever
2020-11-08 18:37:47 lieu what does that even mean
2020-11-08 18:37:54 lieu what's being cracked down for anti-capitalist content
2020-11-08 18:38:02 nihilazo idk, but the government tried to ban teaching from anti-capitalist sources
2020-11-08 18:38:08 lieu ????
2020-11-08 18:38:11 nihilazo I think it was only in certain subjects
2020-11-08 18:38:16 lieu that seems sus
2020-11-08 18:38:20 ericonr that's usually phrased in a different way
2020-11-08 18:38:34 helby now somebody maybe can tell me why I get cert error in bombadillo for almost any gemini site ...
2020-11-08 18:38:37 ericonr no one says "we are only teaching orthodox economics"
2020-11-08 18:39:00 nihilazo oh apparently it's only the case in like one subject nobody cares about
2020-11-08 18:39:14 ericonr you just look, see a bunch of old men in suits patting themselves in the back, and assume they all lick boots
2020-11-08 18:39:20 nihilazo but part of the report was not to teach any content that came from anti-capitalist sources
2020-11-08 18:39:22 helby no idea how all that tls nonsense works, so maybe libressl can be an issue?
2020-11-08 18:39:54 lieu has quit (quit: WeeChat 2.8)
2020-11-08 18:39:58 nihilazo I was kinda interested in doing economics but I heard that A level econ is shit
2020-11-08 18:40:04 nihilazo anyways, this is gemini
2020-11-08 18:41:28 alex11 this is spartaaaaaaaa
2020-11-08 18:49:38 nihilazo now I'm thinking about how i'm in this weird place where i love tech but also hate tech
2020-11-08 18:50:22 tane nihilazo, https://afreshcup.com/home/2020/10/30/double-shot-2717
2020-11-08 18:52:29 nihilazo idk, I guess I mostly agree with that, I think I like tech but hate capitalism and unfortunately tech and capitalism are very hard to seperate
2020-11-08 18:55:11 ericonr join a hacker gang or somethign
2020-11-08 18:55:30 ddevault for me it's just 100% hate
2020-11-08 18:56:21 ericonr nihilazo: anyway, if you're lucky, you can work in tech without hating yourself
2020-11-08 18:56:39 ericonr and even work towards goals you agree with
2020-11-08 18:56:44 nihilazo I doubt it tbh
2020-11-08 18:56:58 ericonr why"
2020-11-08 18:57:10 ericonr ?
2020-11-08 18:57:12 nihilazo I think I'd also probably hate the everyday of working in tech. If I was writing software I'd have to write stuff that was actually semi decent
2020-11-08 18:57:15 nihilazo which I can't do
2020-11-08 18:57:49 ericonr that's indeed a different issue
2020-11-08 18:58:01 ericonr I'd say "you can't do now"
2020-11-08 18:59:27 nihilazo nah, I don't think I'd ever be able to do it
2020-11-08 18:59:42 nihilazo I actually totally suck at programming, my programs are just a series of bugs help together with tape
2020-11-08 18:59:42 thefunkyspaw nihilazo: Developing software in a professional setting is something you'll get better at. For what its worth, I think you should go into HFT. It's a really interesting field.
2020-11-08 18:59:53 tane :D
2020-11-08 19:00:01 alex11 hft?
2020-11-08 19:00:06 ddevault please do not go into HFT
2020-11-08 19:00:08 thefunkyspaw high frequency trading
2020-11-08 19:00:11 ddevault do something which improves society
2020-11-08 19:00:32 thefunkyspaw The efficient allocation of capital improves society
2020-11-08 19:00:36 ericonr or brings any value whatsoever :P
2020-11-08 19:00:41 ericonr hm
2020-11-08 19:00:44 nihilazo capital never improves society, fuck it
2020-11-08 19:00:47 ericonr lol
2020-11-08 19:00:55 ddevault is that how you sleep at night, thefunkyspaw
2020-11-08 19:00:56 ericonr this is probably offtopic here
2020-11-08 19:01:01 ddevault I also have to lie to myself sometimes to fall asleep
2020-11-08 19:01:34 nihilazo I think I'd hate myself a lot working in HFT
2020-11-08 19:02:09 ericonr yeah I wouldn't last a single day
2020-11-08 19:02:34 ericonr if I had push access to prod I'd just add sleep calls all over the place
2020-11-08 19:02:41 thefunkyspaw We should remember that nihilazo is in the UK, so a lot of constructive professions don't pay competitive rates
2020-11-08 19:02:50 thefunkyspaw ,time nihilazo
2020-11-08 19:02:51 tildebot [Time] Unknown location 'nihilazo'
2020-11-08 19:03:02 nihilazo it is 19:00 here but idk why that matters
2020-11-08 19:03:04 thefunkyspaw eh, I'm going on memory, I could be wrong
2020-11-08 19:03:04 nihilazo but yes UK
2020-11-08 19:03:09 thefunkyspaw thanks
2020-11-08 19:03:35 thefunkyspaw Like, I'm an engineer that works on hard assets, but if I lived in the UK I would have pursued a different profession
2020-11-08 19:05:08 nihilazo I have no idea what profession I want to persue. I'm just studying the stuff I find interesting and hoping at some point I can get a job
2020-11-08 19:05:32 nihilazo but I don't want to end up in a job that isn't useful for society and I don't see many useful for society jobs I could get
2020-11-08 19:06:39 ericonr medicine is always there
2020-11-08 19:07:08 ericonr although I don't know how that is in the UK
2020-11-08 19:07:12 ericonr here it's plenty hard
2020-11-08 19:07:13 thefunkyspaw I'm going to sound like my dad, and I kind of want to punch myself in the face, but your values will probably change between 20 years of age and 30 years of age, so don't let them pidgeonhole you.
2020-11-08 19:08:10 low-key i think medicine is just a very long drawn out path everyway
2020-11-08 19:08:18 low-key as long as you're willing to persevere though
2020-11-08 19:08:21 thefunkyspaw medicine is a noble profession
2020-11-08 19:08:23 low-key it works out fine
2020-11-08 19:08:25 thefunkyspaw especially in the UK
2020-11-08 19:08:35 thefunkyspaw They do the best medical studies
2020-11-08 19:08:56 low-key and they have a nationalised health system
2020-11-08 19:08:57 thefunkyspaw You can mix statistics, programming, and a bit of medical background to study that
2020-11-08 19:09:01 low-key which is something i look up to a lot
2020-11-08 19:09:19 thefunkyspaw ^low-key agreed
2020-11-08 19:10:29 tane I recommend to watch "Carry on Doctor", a rather accurate documentary on the NHS and the british medical profession
2020-11-08 19:10:42 thefunkyspaw https://www.prospects.ac.uk/job-profiles/research-scientist-medical
2020-11-08 19:11:18 thefunkyspaw wtf is with those wages, though
2020-11-08 19:12:12 tane Looks like slave positions
2020-11-08 19:12:48 thefunkyspaw This is why, if I lived in the UK, I'd go into business or finance
2020-11-08 19:13:20 thefunkyspaw Or I'd emigrate
2020-11-08 19:15:14 nihilazo I do want to leave the UK honestly
2020-11-08 19:15:18 nihilazo for many reasons
2020-11-08 19:15:25 nihilazo but that's yet another thing that is a pain in the real world
2020-11-08 19:15:54 helby hah, every country is mostly shit, just different one
2020-11-08 19:16:26 nihilazo how long until I can move and live in gemspace
2020-11-08 19:16:39 thefunkyspaw I'll submit a feature request
2020-11-08 19:16:45 thefunkyspaw 🐱
2020-11-08 19:20:10 nihilazo countries were a mistake
2020-11-08 19:21:45 alex11 with more linking to other content and contributers gemini could be really nice
2020-11-08 19:21:50 alex11 it's just... there isn't much content rn
2020-11-08 19:22:10 nihilazo I'm trying to create content but people don't care about my content
2020-11-08 19:25:11 thefunkyspaw 90% of the content is posts about why gemini is great and and Facebook is evil
2020-11-08 19:25:19 thefunkyspaw The other 10% is test posts
2020-11-08 19:25:33 ddevault you're forgetting my posts about how github and glibc are evil
2020-11-08 19:25:40 thefunkyspaw lol, true
2020-11-08 19:25:45 ddevault and mozilla
2020-11-08 19:25:48 thefunkyspaw Gemini needs non-tech stuff
2020-11-08 19:25:58 nihilazo I might start posting recipes
2020-11-08 19:26:08 thefunkyspaw political screeds, relationship advice, and breadpunk
2020-11-08 19:26:10 ddevault martijn: ^
2020-11-08 19:26:26 nihilazo I made my site to talk about all kinds of stuff then I've been realising that all I actually write about is tech
2020-11-08 19:26:41 nihilazo I need to get over my anxiety of publishing low quality content and just write stuff
2020-11-08 19:26:41 kevinsan to be fair, a lot of people are here *because* those things are so shitty, so expect early posts to be rants along those lines
2020-11-08 19:26:56 thefunkyspaw I know I haven't posted yet, but when I do I promise to stay away from tech and politics
2020-11-08 19:27:13 ddevault the only way to get better at writing is to practice writing
2020-11-08 19:27:17 ddevault do me a favor and don't read my early blog posts
2020-11-08 19:27:43 thefunkyspaw haha, the only way to keep people away from early blog posts is to make a lot of new blog posts
2020-11-08 19:27:43 kayw i need to write more blog posts and stories for cosmic
2020-11-08 19:27:48 kevinsan i write crap stuff as an altruistic gesture to encourage everyone to think "i can do better"
2020-11-08 19:28:27 kevinsan i'm really a mega-talented writer, it speaks to my talent that nobody suspects me.
2020-11-08 19:28:45 kevinsan you're all welcome.
2020-11-08 19:28:45 thefunkyspaw Cosmic and breadpunk are the bests things on gemini
2020-11-08 19:29:01 thefunkyspaw and if I'm being honest, breadpunk is better with pictures on http
2020-11-08 19:29:08 nihilazo I'm on breadpunk rn
2020-11-08 19:29:14 ddevault link up breadpunk again
2020-11-08 19:29:17 nihilazo my gemini site is there
2020-11-08 19:29:20 nihilazo breadpunk.clug
2020-11-08 19:29:25 thefunkyspaw club
2020-11-08 19:29:26 nihilazo breadpunk.club
2020-11-08 19:29:29 ddevault thanks
2020-11-08 19:29:29 nihilazo yeah typo
2020-11-08 19:30:02 kayw I need to develop my breadpunk site
2020-11-08 19:30:07 nihilazo hmm, my capsule isn't listed there
2020-11-08 19:30:08 kayw s/develop/work on
2020-11-08 19:30:24 thefunkyspaw ah shit, my test post is on breadpunk, I should delete it
2020-11-08 19:30:35 nihilazo I'm now realising that there isn't a single post on my site that isn't somehow tech related
2020-11-08 19:30:37 nihilazo I need to fix that
2020-11-08 19:30:54 thefunkyspaw Maybe this should be a monthly challenge
2020-11-08 19:30:56 nihilazo I feel like I want to start just adding pages for stuff whenever I feel like it, and then editing them later if they suck
2020-11-08 19:31:18 thefunkyspaw November is nanowrimo, December should be about family or something
2020-11-08 19:31:25 nihilazo which was kinda the idea of moving away from a blog format
2020-11-08 19:31:37 nihilazo but now I just write a page instead of a post and then still feel weird about editing it
2020-11-08 19:31:41 ddevault you could start a microblog
2020-11-08 19:31:57 nihilazo I have a mastodon account where I post nonsense
2020-11-08 19:32:05 nihilazo that's kinda my microblog
2020-11-08 19:32:18 kayw same with mine, i guess
2020-11-08 19:32:20 nihilazo but things there rarely develop into something I want to write a page about
2020-11-08 19:32:23 thefunkyspaw Am I the only person that despises microblogging?
2020-11-08 19:32:29 kevinsan i edit my posts all the time - when i change my viewpoint or understanding, I'll edit (if i can be arsed)
2020-11-08 19:32:36 nihilazo (aside from "fuck microsoft" type things, which I feel like I'm contributing nothing to the conversation with)
2020-11-08 19:33:13 ddevault might help if you had some shell commands which made it easier to post
2020-11-08 19:33:25 kevinsan like vi?
2020-11-08 19:33:44 ddevault I mean
2020-11-08 19:33:59 ddevault like a script which summons an editor, then posts the file to your gemlog once you close the editor
2020-11-08 19:34:24 nihilazo I have my input in a vimwiki so I can just type ws and then write whatever
2020-11-08 19:34:42 nihilazo but it's mainly just feeling like my content has to have some standard of quality
2020-11-08 19:34:51 nihilazo and not just writing a page about oatmeal or something
2020-11-08 19:35:02 nihilazo (although I do want to share some dank oatmeal wisdom with the world)
2020-11-08 19:35:05 thefunkyspaw You should write a page about oatmeal
2020-11-08 19:35:14 ddevault ^
2020-11-08 19:35:16 thefunkyspaw Go all out. I'm sure it has an interesting history
2020-11-08 19:35:19 nihilazo idk how much I'd be contributing to the gemspace oatmeal discourse
2020-11-08 19:35:32 thefunkyspaw You'd be starting it, a trendsetter!
2020-11-08 19:35:34 kayw you'd be contributing a lot
2020-11-08 19:35:34 kevinsan nihilazo: honestly, i think if you start writing about oatmeal, you'll get past the urge to please other people
2020-11-08 19:35:56 nihilazo I also want to post about granola
2020-11-08 19:36:13 thefunkyspaw You could write about how steel cut oats are different from other oatmeals
2020-11-08 19:36:20 nihilazo and become the #1 destination for hot takes about breakfast in gemspace
2020-11-08 19:36:30 nihilazo I wish I could get my hands on steel cut oats, I can't find them near me :(
2020-11-08 19:36:34 ddevault gemini://breakfastin.space
2020-11-08 19:36:38 ddevault blog exclusively about breakfast
2020-11-08 19:36:41 ddevault I would read the shit about that
2020-11-08 19:36:45 ddevault shit out of that*
2020-11-08 19:36:53 thefunkyspaw Make sure there's an atom feed or something
2020-11-08 19:37:02 nihilazo I mean, there's a meditative podcast about breakfast already
2020-11-08 19:37:08 nihilazo maybe I should make a proxy to that for gemini
2020-11-08 19:37:31 nihilazo actually, I do kinda feel like making a gemini thing for podcasts. Because most podcast sites totally suck when all you want is an RSS feed
2020-11-08 19:37:58 nihilazo I swear, the amount of times where the RSS feed is buried under wanting you to install an app of various streaming things or a subscription or whatever
2020-11-08 19:38:27 thefunkyspaw RSS/atom are amazing and the failure if the protocol is an excellent critique of capitalism
2020-11-08 19:38:38 nihilazo I need to add feeds to my site
2020-11-08 19:38:43 thefunkyspaw s/if/of/
2020-11-08 19:38:46 nihilazo but I will do so after I rewrite my generator to not suck
2020-11-08 19:39:52 thefunkyspaw I'm kind of tempted to just post the raw restructured text I want to use for my HTTP blog to gopher and gemini so I can get straight to posting.
2020-11-08 19:40:06 thefunkyspaw I figure I can convert it later.
2020-11-08 19:40:28 nihilazo I have a terrible markdown to gemtext converter
2020-11-08 19:40:57 nihilazo me: I'll build a site generator so I can understand how stuff works!
2020-11-08 19:41:02 thefunkyspaw I'm doing it the hard way. rst-> html -> gemtext
2020-11-08 19:41:05 nihilazo me less than 2 weeks later: how the fuck did this work again?
2020-11-08 19:41:21 ★ nihilazo stares at less than 200 lines of his own terrible code and cries
2020-11-08 19:43:11 thefunkyspaw I g2g do chores. ttyl, fellow kids
2020-11-08 19:43:13 nihilazo it was fine until the way I decided to add gemini support was "fuck it, duplicate everything"
2020-11-08 19:44:21 ddevault I should write a roff to gemtext processor
2020-11-08 19:46:05 nihilazo that would be neat
2020-11-08 19:51:06 jcowan I think a groff output postprocessor would be better/simpler.
2020-11-08 19:52:17 ddevault why
2020-11-08 19:52:32 ddevault I'd rather add a new processor to mandoc, for instance
2020-11-08 19:52:39 ddevault address the problem at the correct level, not through indirection
2020-11-08 19:54:06 jcowan Because writing a program to accept arbitrary troff (as opposed to just troff -man') is not exactly easy.
2020-11-08 19:54:25 ddevault not really
2020-11-08 19:54:33 nihilazo I might move my site from taking input in markdown to taking input in gemtext, but then I'd lose vimwiki support
2020-11-08 19:54:39 nihilazo although I want to move away from vimwiki anyway
2020-11-08 19:54:40 ddevault and troff -man != groff
2020-11-08 19:55:03 ddevault the mandoc riggings for HTML output for instance are ~1500 LoC
2020-11-08 19:55:05 ddevault not that bad
2020-11-08 19:56:40 jcowan Sure. Because it's processing only -man and -mdoc flavors of the troff language. Not the whole language.
2020-11-08 19:56:52 ddevault that is all I'm really looking for
2020-11-08 19:56:54 jcowan Would you write a TeX to Gemini converter that didn't use tetex?
2020-11-08 19:56:59 jcowan Oh, okay, sure.
2020-11-08 20:42:09 ddevault I have generalized the web to gemini viewer as promised: gemini://drewdevault.com/cgi-bin/web.sh
2020-11-08 20:44:10 nihilazo gemini://breadpunk.club/~bagel/porridge.gmi
2020-11-08 20:44:24 nihilazo bringing HIGH QUALITY breakfast content to the gemspace
2020-11-08 20:49:49 tane has quit (quit: Leaving)
2020-11-08 20:53:28 ew0k Is there a sort of bare socket in javascript? I can only find how to do http calls with it
2020-11-08 20:56:21 insep websocket or smth like that
2020-11-08 21:04:52 jcowan ddevault: Very shiny!
2020-11-08 21:05:16 jcowan It would be good to package it as a proxy too
2020-11-08 21:05:29 ddevault package it?
2020-11-08 21:06:08 jcowan Make it available for people to run as a proxy rather than a gateway. It should be straightforward?
2020-11-08 21:06:15 ddevault just run the CGI scripts locally
2020-11-08 21:06:22 ddevault https://git.sr.ht/~sircmpwn/gci-scripts/tree/master/
2020-11-08 21:06:26 ddevault see web.sh and web2gmi.js
2020-11-08 21:06:43 kevinsan nihilazo: well, i learned cinnamon works with porridge, so you enriched the world in at least one small way!
2020-11-08 21:14:15 jcowan I guess what I want is a trivial server that will invoke either the CGI wrapper or the stuff below it.
2020-11-08 21:14:36 jcowan Then I can set localhost:<someport> as my HTTP proxy in Lagrange
2020-11-08 21:14:46 ddevault gmnisrv is pretty straightforward
2020-11-08 21:15:19 ddevault a config like this would be sufficient for what you want https://paste.sr.ht/~sircmpwn/007490e2ea8920e203cd60738086d35cdea53578
2020-11-08 21:15:50 ddevault or /srv/gemini if you want something system-wide
2020-11-08 21:18:44 jcowan So if you sent it a gemini request for "http://example.com/path/to/file.html" it would Just Work?
2020-11-08 21:19:04 ddevault assuming you did it through the gateway, yes
2020-11-08 21:19:15 epoch gotta pass the URL as a query string instead of the request afaict
2020-11-08 21:19:28 ddevault it'd be gemini://localhost/cgi-bin/web.sh?http%3A%2F%2Fexample.com/path/to/file.html
2020-11-08 21:24:18 epoch I was going to try running that on my gemini server, but just to do node -c 'console.log("test")' takes 27 seconds.
2020-11-08 21:24:52 ddevault yeah, node is fucking slow
2020-11-08 21:25:32 ddevault maybe if I add FastCGI support to gmnisrv it'd be helpful
2020-11-08 21:28:02 jcowan I realize that I actually don't know what the proxy protocol is. I assumed it was just passing the remote URI to the proxy like any request, que no?
2020-11-08 21:29:35 ddevault it uses the gemini URL's query string as the URL to fetch
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2020-11-08 21:53:10 lukee jcowan: I think there are at least two flavours of proxies that do http via gemini. 1) a URL parameterised version that munges URLs, like the one by Drew and 2) scheme specific proxies that take a normal http url and retrieve the content without changing the URLs (like duckling proxy). The latter are the kind that should work with lagrange
2020-11-08 21:56:59 lukee (I think lagrange has a bug that you have to specify the proxy machine by IP address, not name though)
2020-11-08 21:58:00 thefunkyspaw nihilazo : Loved the post! You should try adding blueberries to your oatmeal. I'm from the American South, and we put all kinds of ridiculous shit in oatmeal, but what really will blow your mind is a dish called "grits"
2020-11-08 22:00:00 thefunkyspaw Grits is pretty much just ground up corn sand made soggy with water or milk, so it is very similar to oatmeal except that it tastes terrible. To offset this, they add tons of butter, peanut butter, sugar, cinnamon, raisins, or fruit. I don't know why though, when you have all the ingredients of a cookie, just leave out the corn sand and make a cookie. 🤷♂️
2020-11-08 22:00:29 nihilazo that sounds both amazing and terrible at the same time
2020-11-08 22:00:44 nihilazo rn I'm uploading the recipes I have stored in my personal recipe store up to my site
2020-11-08 22:01:06 thefunkyspaw Ooh, that's a neat idea. I have tons of recipes in Google Drive I could upload....
2020-11-08 22:02:39 nihilazo I don't have many but it's more than nothing
2020-11-08 22:16:14 nihilazo I've no idea where I am legally with sharing these recipes but I think I'm good
2020-11-08 22:16:23 nihilazo and if I'm not, whoever wrote them will have to somehow find me first
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2020-11-08 22:22:48 jcowan lukee: Only if it is localhost, because localhost is bound to the IPv6 address which typically doesn't work.
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2020-11-08 22:31:05 lukee ok that's good to know, although I can't understand why some apps can see localhost as ipv4 but some others would require it to be on ipv6.
2020-11-08 22:31:08 epoch epo.k.vu has a gemini proxy on it
2020-11-08 22:32:32 epoch kind of
2020-11-08 22:33:50 lukee what kind of proxy - do you have to encode the target URL as a path or query param?
2020-11-08 22:34:16 epoch target URL as request
2020-11-08 22:34:16 lukee I couldnt get it working as a scheme specific proxy
2020-11-08 22:34:21 lukee ah ok
2020-11-08 22:34:40 epoch printf "urn:ietf:rfc:1918\r\n" | openssl s_client -quiet -connect epo.k.vu:1965
2020-11-08 22:35:12 epoch though, for urn:ietf:rfc is it just outputting a uri list.
2020-11-08 22:35:26 epoch instead of actually downloading it and passing it on
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2020-11-08 22:35:49 epoch I could fix that real fast though.
2020-11-08 22:36:41 epoch I haven't tested it with /real/ clients.
2020-11-08 22:37:01 lukee what URL schemes should it work with?
2020-11-08 22:37:58 epoch gemini: and urn: atm
2020-11-08 22:38:09 epoch and gemini-proxy
2020-11-08 22:38:43 lukee ah - that's not clear from the gemsite. I tried asking for an https target and got an error
2020-11-08 22:39:08 ★ epoch adds an https handler real fast
2020-11-08 22:42:54 epoch try now?
2020-11-08 22:43:18 epoch it doesn't attempt to do html->gemtext conversion, it just does a gemini response with content-type text/html
2020-11-08 22:45:25 lukee woo it worked
2020-11-08 22:45:35 lukee using GemiNaut
2020-11-08 22:45:50 epoch woo
2020-11-08 22:46:56 lukee GemiNaut is happy to convert html to gemtext on the client anyway
2020-11-08 22:49:02 lukee what is it using to do the actual request?
2020-11-08 22:50:17 epoch a pile of shell scripts
2020-11-08 22:50:22 lukee :)
2020-11-08 22:50:44 epoch kind of wrapped around the uristart script I have for launching URIs on my desktop
2020-11-08 22:50:54 epoch but changed the config file to work for my gemini daemon
2020-11-08 22:51:43 lukee my only comment is it seems a little slow - maybe it is running on a lightweight machine?
2020-11-08 22:52:12 epoch it is running on an over-worked raspi 1 B
2020-11-08 22:52:53 lukee its doing well then
2020-11-08 22:54:05 epoch If you want to follow the request through the pile of shell scripts...
2020-11-08 22:54:10 lukee if you wanted to convert the html to gemtext in the content pipeline, take a look at https://github.com/LukeEmmet/html2gmi
2020-11-08 22:54:24 epoch the ssl is done with stunnel which then calls: https://github.com/kkabrams/shell-daemons/blob/master/geminid
2020-11-08 22:55:13 epoch it does a check for SNI != requested_domain, and if SNI == epo.k.vu that then runs uristart
2020-11-08 22:55:25 epoch https://github.com/kkabrams/uritools/blob/master/uristart
2020-11-08 22:57:44 epoch put the uristart config file for epo.k.vu at gemini://epo.k.vu/uristart.conf
2020-11-08 22:58:04 epoch guess I need to put the http2gemini script somewhere...
2020-11-08 23:00:19 kevinsan lukee: a minor GemiNaut anomaly - https://gemini.susa.net:1993/Geminaut_Anomaly.jpg
2020-11-08 23:02:11 epoch https://github.com/kkabrams/shell-daemons/blob/master/http2gemini
2020-11-08 23:07:00 lukee kevinsan: not sure what the best fix is. In my latest dev build, it at least truncates the heading to 70 chars, which helps with very long headings
2020-11-08 23:07:41 lukee but the problem is the display layout engine (mshtml) is trying to word wrap what is effectively a huge word with no spaces
2020-11-08 23:07:54 kevinsan i think you've picked up #######... as a level three heading, whereas it's not a heading at all
2020-11-08 23:08:19 lukee ah ok, I'm with you now, a different problem
2020-11-08 23:08:40 ★ lukee checks the gemini spec
2020-11-08 23:09:55 lukee actually a string of 3 or more octothorpes is a heading 3 as the whitespace is optional
2020-11-08 23:10:18 lukee so "####" is effectively a heading 3 having the text "#"
2020-11-08 23:10:31 lukee IMO the spec should say the space is required
2020-11-08 23:11:24 zephryn ^^^
2020-11-08 23:11:39 lukee or another way of looking at the problem is the proxy you are using doesnt make any attempt to "escape" any sequence that could be interpreted as a gemtext line prefix
2020-11-08 23:13:56 jcowan lukee: Not the way I read it. "Heading lines consist of one, two or three consecutive "#" characters, followed by optional whitespace, followed by heading text."`
2020-11-08 23:13:56 lukee eopch: if the returned content-type is text/html you could pipe it through an html to gemtext converter
2020-11-08 23:14:08 jcowan I take that to mean that "####" is plain text.
2020-11-08 23:14:32 boringcactus i think #### is a level 3 heading with a heading text of #
2020-11-08 23:14:42 boringcactus since the whitespace is optional
2020-11-08 23:14:46 lukee jcowan: the first three "###" make it a heading, the rest is the text
2020-11-08 23:14:59 epoch lukee: I'll probably at least try doing automatic html->gmi conversion
2020-11-08 23:15:06 jcowan You're right.
2020-11-08 23:15:13 epoch but I'd need to install golang on this raspi first
2020-11-08 23:15:24 epoch (or crosscompile it?)
2020-11-08 23:15:53 zephryn not having whitespace can make some situations a bit ambiguous
2020-11-08 23:16:03 lukee epoch: my rpi is series 1 and it runs golang
2020-11-08 23:16:25 jcowan One could make the very very pedantic point that "### foo" is ambiguous between a level-3 header saying "foo" and a level 1 header saying "## foo", but that could be easily cured and is probably not worth fixing anyhow
2020-11-08 23:16:38 epoch yeah, I assumed a raspi was capable, I just haven't installed it yet
2020-11-08 23:17:46 jcowan so in practice check for heading lines in decreasing order
2020-11-08 23:17:53 jcowan match ### then ## then #
2020-11-08 23:17:57 lukee jcowan: yes there is some ambiguity. In practice the trick of course is to test for level 3, then 2, then 1
2020-11-08 23:18:08 ★ jcowan chuckles
2020-11-08 23:18:11 jcowan Jinx!
2020-11-08 23:19:48 lukee its almost as if the gemini spec has a few ambiguities in it.
2020-11-08 23:20:15 lukee if it didn't what would pedantic nerds like us fight over :)
2020-11-08 23:53:19 lukee ok - its late here, I'm wrapping up for now...
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2020-11-09 00:00:13 jcowan When you've written a lot of specs, you get a nose for ambiguities.
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2020-11-09 03:37:04 kayw ugh, i cannot figure out why gmnisrv isn't outputting any logs
2020-11-09 03:37:13 kayw it just doesnt make any sense
2020-11-09 03:37:35 kayw it does, but only when I stop the service. then it just outputs everything at once
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2020-11-09 04:30:18 kayw oh it's cause i'm running it as a systemd service?
2020-11-09 04:30:27 kayw that's... odd
2020-11-09 04:34:08 acdw what's the output of journalctl?
2020-11-09 04:34:19 acdw journalctl --unit gmnisrv
2020-11-09 04:34:20 acdw i think
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2020-11-09 04:39:16 kayw that's what i've been using, `journalctl -f -u gmnisrv.service`
2020-11-09 04:39:36 acdw huh, idk then
2020-11-09 04:39:43 kayw yeah super strange
2020-11-09 04:39:49 acdw i feel like Patrick in that one scene of spongebob
2020-11-09 04:39:57 kayw cc ddevault, maybe you can shed some light on this?
2020-11-09 04:40:02 acdw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AyaAqwzgIQ
2020-11-09 04:40:28 kayw lmao
2020-11-09 04:41:06 acdw I think of that scene like,,,, a lot
2020-11-09 04:41:24 kayw it's a good spongebob scene
2020-11-09 04:41:33 acdw haha
2020-11-09 04:42:01 mieum kayw: try running it in the foreground instead. it should spit out some logs to stdout
2020-11-09 04:42:05 khuxkm lemme guess, is it "how does he dooooo that?"
2020-11-09 04:42:22 khuxkm oh nvm
2020-11-09 04:42:24 acdw haha
2020-11-09 04:42:29 khuxkm that one's pretty good too tho
2020-11-09 04:43:23 acdw oh yeah, every spongebob scene (of hillenburg seasons) is good
2020-11-09 04:43:24 kayw mieum: as in just running it from the shell? It does output to stdout, that works.
2020-11-09 04:43:43 kayw I tried it before confirming that it had to be because of the systemd service
2020-11-09 04:43:54 kayw or there's another factor that i'm not considering
2020-11-09 04:44:16 epoch sounds like the log file descriptor doesn't flush after each line written
2020-11-09 04:45:25 epoch if it is sending logs to stdout, and running in foreground works, but > file doesn't try to run it using stdbuf -oL
2020-11-09 04:46:10 kayw sure? time to edit the service and give it a go
2020-11-09 04:46:42 epoch I just now opened the sources.
2020-11-09 04:47:56 kayw well
2020-11-09 04:48:01 epoch if you don't want to use stdbuf, you might try putting some fflush() after fprintf()s in log.c
2020-11-09 04:48:23 epoch since stdbuf -oL is only for stdout
2020-11-09 04:48:25 kayw doing `gmnisrv > gmnisrv.log` makes the service stop working
2020-11-09 04:48:55 kayw really it just exited with status=1 so
2020-11-09 04:50:13 epoch alright, serverlog is to stderr, and clientlog is to stdout
2020-11-09 04:50:57 ★ epoch looks for the service file
2020-11-09 04:51:56 kayw I made it myself
2020-11-09 04:52:03 kayw https://f.salejandro.me/gmnisrv.service
2020-11-09 04:52:26 kayw I adapted it from the one molly-brown provides
2020-11-09 04:53:47 epoch I figure the Exec's output is supposed to go to its journal?
2020-11-09 04:54:16 kayw I believe so, yes
2020-11-09 04:54:17 epoch maybe change the ExecStart line to...
2020-11-09 04:54:18 acdw afaik
2020-11-09 04:54:54 epoch /usr/bin/stdbuf -oL /usr/bin/gmnisrv
2020-11-09 04:55:04 epoch (I'm assuming you have stdbuf installed though)
2020-11-09 04:55:12 kayw I do
2020-11-09 04:55:15 kayw lemme try
2020-11-09 04:56:06 kayw okay
2020-11-09 04:56:08 kayw so
2020-11-09 04:56:13 kayw let's see if this works no
2020-11-09 04:56:20 kayw it does.
2020-11-09 04:56:53 epoch w00t
2020-11-09 04:57:37 acdw awesssommmmeeee
2020-11-09 04:57:47 kayw also this looks to be a gmnisrv bug(?) but 2nd octet of the incoming IP address seems to be increasing by 2?
2020-11-09 04:58:07 epoch weird..
2020-11-09 04:58:35 epoch running it on Linux?
2020-11-09 04:58:44 kayw https://hastebin.com/iveqorozej.txt
2020-11-09 04:58:45 kayw yeah I am
2020-11-09 04:58:56 kayw that was me reloading kristall several times
2020-11-09 04:59:06 epoch heh
2020-11-09 05:00:31 kayw anyways
2020-11-09 05:00:38 kayw happy that it works now, thanks epoch
2020-11-09 05:00:55 epoch np
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2020-11-09 06:55:44 bie hng, can't find a "complete" black and white emoji font
2020-11-09 06:56:02 bie noto emoji is even missing 🧸
2020-11-09 06:57:25 zephryn seems like the black and white noto emoji font isn't being worked on anymore :(
2020-11-09 06:59:57 bie huh, according to fileformat.info, symbola supports the teddy bear... maybe something else is wrong
2020-11-09 07:01:28 bie oh, i had an old version of symbola! 🎉
2020-11-09 07:16:57 ew0k Hah! I need to change the working name of my gemini browser now that someone announced the release of another with the name Astronaut :D
2020-11-09 07:17:53 bie ew0k: cosmonaut? :x:x
2020-11-09 07:21:41 ew0k bie: it crossed my mind :F
2020-11-09 07:21:42 ew0k :D
2020-11-09 07:22:30 ew0k If/when I finish it and release it I'll probably give it some whimsical name
2020-11-09 07:22:43 bie nice nice
2020-11-09 07:22:47 bie ew0k: how far along are you?
2020-11-09 07:25:27 ew0k uhm... not long... :D
2020-11-09 07:25:45 ew0k https://notabug.org/tinyrabbit/astronaut-gemini-browser
2020-11-09 07:26:00 ew0k I'm basically just playing around with tkinter so far
2020-11-09 07:26:25 ew0k haven't even started on gui events or network calls
2020-11-09 07:29:46 bie cool!
2020-11-09 07:30:12 ew0k if it gets somewhere, then yes! :D
2020-11-09 07:31:05 ew0k where can I find gemget?
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2020-11-09 07:37:01 ew0k bie: and thank you! I didn’t mean to brush off your compliment like that :)
2020-11-09 07:37:11 bie ew0k: https://github.com/makeworld-the-better-one/gemget maybe?
2020-11-09 07:37:55 bie ew0k: haha no problem, i know what it's like when you're not sure if a project is going anywhere
2020-11-09 07:38:25 bie i'm trying to repurpose an old proof-of-concept gopher client into a gemini client
2020-11-09 07:54:53 ew0k bie: that sounds interesting!
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2020-11-09 07:55:31 ew0k I haven't really played around with gopher. Are those clients much different from gemini clients?
2020-11-09 07:56:43 bie ew0k: other than the ssl stuff, a gemini client is going to be a lot simpler actually
2020-11-09 07:57:38 bie gopher doesn't provide the mime type in the response, so you have to know in advance that a particular url is going to respond with, say, an image
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2020-11-09 07:59:17 ew0k right
2020-11-09 08:09:42 ew0k Yay! I was planning to do a write-up of my thoughts around caching, but marc put it pretty well on the ML
2020-11-09 08:10:34 ew0k I might do anyway, if I feel like it, but it'd be more like a summary of the discussion with my own comments rather than any actual new arguments
2020-11-09 08:12:04 bie my biggest issue is the confusion when a client decides to cache something without making it clear to the user
2020-11-09 08:12:24 aravk bad client
2020-11-09 08:13:09 bie i've already seen some cases of "it didn't show up for me at first, maybe something is wrong with your server?" when it's the client aggressively caching responses and not telling the user
2020-11-09 08:20:36 ew0k bie: I see that as a UX problem rather than a protocol problem
2020-11-09 08:22:08 ew0k and my contention is that the basic gemini philosophy is to be transparent to the user and let the user make informed choices. As reflected in the fact that clients are not supposed to fetch any resources the user didn't request, as well as inform the user when a server is redirecting them, for example.
2020-11-09 08:22:37 ew0k I.e. caching is awesome and should be used *exactly as much and in the way the user wants/expects it to*
2020-11-09 08:22:38 bie while i kind of agree, it's also an issue of what the "community" wants
2020-11-09 08:23:01 bie if clients caching (without informing the user) is a-ok with the community then it's just not for me
2020-11-09 08:23:08 bie which is fine, but it'd be nice to know lol
2020-11-09 08:24:39 aravk it's not a-ok with the community though
2020-11-09 08:24:41 aravk at least, I don't think so
2020-11-09 08:24:46 ew0k I think the general expectation is to cache during a session for back/forward action -- this is what most web browsers have taught us, anyway). If my client will be caching differently than that I'll be sure to inform the user clearly about this at every turn
2020-11-09 08:25:18 aravk yeah, I thought this back/forth caching was the normal, so the whole ML blowup was surprising
2020-11-09 08:25:26 bie agreed, for back/forward it's fine
2020-11-09 08:25:41 ew0k the issue of sessions that are days long is a point of controversy, though. Not everyone expects caching for back/forward to last that long
2020-11-09 08:26:20 aravk then either the client automatically invalidates its cache after say 6 hours, or the user just knows to reload because the client tells them when the page is cached from
2020-11-09 08:27:04 ew0k for me personally I had just never thought of it before the issue came up somewhere (not sure if I encountered it here or on the ML first). I just tend to refresh tabs that I haven't visited for a while anyway, habitually
2020-11-09 08:27:07 aravk or lets the user decide whether to use the old cached page before destroying it - although this should be reserved to a config option
2020-11-09 08:27:13 aravk yeah, same
2020-11-09 08:28:27 ew0k I use back/forward action pretty sparingly; like usually going back or forward within 10-20 minutes of first visiting a page -- and then just expect it to be cached. Otherwise I have a few tabs that are open for a long time, and of course I don'
2020-11-09 08:28:37 ew0k t expect them to refresh without me saying so
2020-11-09 08:38:52 bie lol, a beautiful font-related bug in my client
2020-11-09 08:38:53 bie gemini://blekksprut.net/screenshot.png
2020-11-09 08:43:13 insep nice
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2020-11-09 08:53:45 ew0k bie: nice :D What's the reason?
2020-11-09 08:57:04 bie ew0k: i forgot to set a fallback font for the preformatted text
2020-11-09 08:57:10 bie and also got the size wrong lol
2020-11-09 09:01:20 ew0k :D
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2020-11-09 14:17:27 bie ddevault: i'm having some trouble getting a response from your server... everything up to the handshake seems ok, but when i send the request it closes the connection
2020-11-09 14:17:43 ddevault did you use CRLF or LF
2020-11-09 14:17:50 bie CRLF
2020-11-09 14:17:53 ddevault did you set SNI
2020-11-09 14:18:10 bie hm, probably not!
2020-11-09 14:18:16 ddevault yeah my server requires SNI
2020-11-09 14:18:24 ddevault maybe I should mention that on the mailing list
2020-11-09 14:19:54 bie wow, that was a simple fix, it works now! thanks!!
2020-11-09 14:20:01 ddevault np
2020-11-09 14:21:30 insep ddevault: gemini specification allows to specify any scheme in url that you send in request, have you thought about (ab)using that for your web for gemini? :D probably 0 clients support that as of right now, but would be fun to see someone implementing that in their client
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2020-11-09 14:21:41 ★ ddevault shrugs
2020-11-09 14:22:08 @tomasino i'll actually consider it a pretty sad day for gemini when the first person does add html client support
2020-11-09 14:22:14 ddevault ^
2020-11-09 14:22:14 bie ddevault: gemini://blekksprut.net/screenshot2.png early days~
2020-11-09 14:22:46 ddevault rip my ascii art
2020-11-09 14:23:00 bie lol yeah, still working on that
2020-11-09 14:24:28 insep tomasino: qt has widget for chromium, just saying
2020-11-09 14:24:55 @tomasino yep. kristall could have support in 5 min. i'm glad it doesn't. handing it off to xdg-open is nice
2020-11-09 14:25:09 insep ^
2020-11-09 14:25:40 kayw bie: my client does that too haha
2020-11-09 14:25:45 @xq heya
2020-11-09 14:25:49 @xq how's the days in gemini space?
2020-11-09 14:25:51 kayw hey xq
2020-11-09 14:25:55 @tomasino hiya xq!
2020-11-09 14:26:00 bie kayw: what's your client?
2020-11-09 14:26:14 kayw very WIP, i'm writing it in Nim
2020-11-09 14:26:25 bie i'm just going to display the html as text
2020-11-09 14:26:43 bie basically handle text/gemini and handle all other text/* mime types as text/plain
2020-11-09 14:27:02 kayw oh nice
2020-11-09 14:27:22 bie don't think i've ever looked at nim :o
2020-11-09 14:28:13 kayw it's very much like python, but it compiles
2020-11-09 14:28:54 kayw hell, they even have a page on the wiki showing python code in nim
2020-11-09 14:29:10 ddevault I also handle text/* as text/plain
2020-11-09 14:29:12 ddevault this seems like a wise plan
2020-11-09 14:31:04 acdw handle everything as text/plain
2020-11-09 14:31:14 acdw image/jpeg? text/plain
2020-11-09 14:31:26 acdw application/x-openoffice? text/plain
2020-11-09 14:31:35 ddevault text/plain? text/plain
2020-11-09 14:31:43 acdw no actually --- that's the clever bit
2020-11-09 14:31:48 acdw download text/plain
2020-11-09 14:32:01 acdw open it in the system viewer
2020-11-09 14:32:03 acdw :P
2020-11-09 14:33:24 @xq kayw, what do you use for UI?
2020-11-09 14:33:45 @xq or just console interface?
2020-11-09 14:33:54 khuxkm hmm
2020-11-09 14:34:56 khuxkm ddevault: so I fixed my "client" to do SNI and the connection is just hanging now when I try to get gemini://drewdevault.com
2020-11-09 14:35:02 khuxkm am I missing something?
2020-11-09 14:35:09 ddevault my server is finicky
2020-11-09 14:35:12 ddevault try again
2020-11-09 14:35:18 khuxkm there we go
2020-11-09 14:37:12 kayw xq: it's gonna be for the terminal
2020-11-09 14:37:52 kayw There aren't many UI libraries iirc
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2020-11-09 14:57:22 bie gemini://blekksprut.net/screenshot3.png pretty happy with how far i got today... now i just have to figure out scrolling 🤔
2020-11-09 15:00:16 kayw woah
2020-11-09 15:00:18 kayw very cool
2020-11-09 15:00:44 kayw what font is being used there?
2020-11-09 15:01:12 bie unifont! http://www.unifoundry.com/unifont/index.html
2020-11-09 15:01:29 kayw thanks!
2020-11-09 15:01:43 kayw also please do share the source code when you're done, I'd love to take a look at it
2020-11-09 15:02:08 mieum bie: I like that you link to your screenshots through gemini :)
2020-11-09 15:02:10 bie i probably will, yeah!
2020-11-09 15:02:46 bie mieum: feels good to test them using my own client too, lol
2020-11-09 15:06:35 bie mieum: did you do namu.blue?
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2020-11-09 17:20:46 acdw bie: do you really like unifont?!
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2020-11-09 17:35:13 kayw how did you get that vhost?
2020-11-09 17:58:46 epoch probably /msg hostserv help
2020-11-09 17:59:55 acdw kayw: who're you asking?
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2020-11-09 21:41:33 zephryn doesn't seem like i've been getting mailing list posts in my inbox D:
2020-11-09 21:43:10 Sario528 I've had half a dozed in the past few hours, did they end up in your spam folder?
2020-11-09 21:45:13 a_case_of_ducks zephryn: that' not *necessarily* a problem :P
2020-11-09 21:50:10 zephryn didn't end up in spam, guess it's time to check the mailman account
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2020-11-09 21:59:08 @tomasino spam spam spam & eggs?
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2020-11-09 22:02:44 acdw and spam!
2020-11-09 22:03:51 zephryn green eggs and spam
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2020-11-09 22:04:23 Sario528 spam and WLAN
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2020-11-09 22:06:49 zephryn wake-on-lan, it's time for spam
2020-11-09 22:07:29 acdw honestly spam is pretty dope
2020-11-09 22:07:38 acdw wish they had a veg version
2020-11-09 22:08:01 zephryn i've somehow never had it
2020-11-09 22:08:25 acdw it's quite good fried, used to have it as a kid
2020-11-09 22:08:29 acdw canned meat
2020-11-09 22:08:39 acdw i'm sure it's not something you want to know the full ingredients of
2020-11-09 22:09:17 ericonr I don't think you want to know full ingredients of most food
2020-11-09 22:09:42 acdw banana, ingredients: banana
2020-11-09 22:09:44 acdw not so bad
2020-11-09 22:09:50 acdw but yeah, i get your point :P
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2020-11-09 22:14:05 jcromero ddevault Wrong URL in your atom feed for your last post
2020-11-09 22:14:15 ddevault please send me an email
2020-11-09 22:14:17 ddevault sir@cmpwn.com
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2020-11-09 22:19:34 jcromero ddevault Sorry for the noise. Stupid me. The blog is by solderpunk, not you :/
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2020-11-10 02:43:23 makeworld Mailing list is fast and furious
2020-11-10 02:52:15 @tomasino raawr
2020-11-10 02:53:52 kayw as it should be
2020-11-10 02:57:17 @tomasino gemtext formatting, my favorite
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2020-11-10 03:05:38 khuxkm holy
2020-11-10 03:06:25 khuxkm i take one day off of reading emails
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2020-11-10 03:08:41 bie 𝘪𝘧 𝘺𝘰𝘶 𝙧𝙚𝙖𝙡𝙡𝙮 𝘯𝘦𝘦𝘥 𝘪𝘵𝘢𝘭𝘪𝘤𝘴, 𝖚𝖓𝖎𝖈𝖔𝖉𝖊 𝖍𝖆𝖘 𝖞𝖔𝖚 𝖈𝖔𝖛𝖊𝖗𝖊𝖉
2020-11-10 03:23:23 khuxkm that looks like shit ngl
2020-11-10 03:24:47 tejr ^ He's right you know
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2020-11-10 03:33:59 bie yyup!
2020-11-10 03:35:49 bie hmm... i'm not sure if i even like the advanced line types in text/gemini
2020-11-10 03:36:13 bie semantic markup was a mistake :x:x
2020-11-10 03:49:41 khuxkm >markup was a mistake
2020-11-10 03:49:42 khuxkm ftfy
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2020-11-10 03:51:21 low-key This is my first mailing list ever and now it's all I can see in my inbox
2020-11-10 03:51:26 low-key 🤭
2020-11-10 03:52:57 low-key As someone who's just starting out with neomutt, is there a simple way to move all the mailing list mail to a separate folder automatically?
2020-11-10 03:53:17 low-key And if not then is there any client that can?
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2020-11-10 04:28:24 mieum low-key: these past few days I've also realized I need to start filtering >_<
2020-11-10 04:29:15 low-key hehe
2020-11-10 04:29:22 mieum I'm not sure about neo-mutt, but what about using notmuch or something?
2020-11-10 04:29:28 low-key notmuch?
2020-11-10 04:29:39 mieum https://notmuchmail.org/
2020-11-10 04:29:40 low-key i'm sorry but i'm very new to the world of email on the terminal
2020-11-10 04:29:55 low-key mieum: you saw my message thanking you for tdiv?
2020-11-10 04:29:59 low-key i loved it!
2020-11-10 04:30:13 mieum oh yeah? I missed that >_< glad you liked it! it's such a great tool
2020-11-10 04:30:19 mieum sloum makes some really cool stuff
2020-11-10 04:32:25 low-key and i managed to filter the mailing list stuff using the web client for migadu
2020-11-10 04:32:38 mieum oh nice!
2020-11-10 04:32:53 mieum it's time for me to get on that too....
2020-11-10 05:02:34 low-key I tried it out on a whim yesterday
2020-11-10 05:02:37 low-key And am loving it
2020-11-10 05:02:51 low-key Might switch to it full-time
2020-11-10 05:03:00 low-key It's micro plan made me realise how overpriced ProtonMail is
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2020-11-10 06:56:10 zephryn migadu has been pretty nice for me
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2020-11-10 07:54:24 ew0k Wow! The mailing list is on fire!
2020-11-10 07:55:00 bie lol yeah
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2020-11-10 08:03:45 ew0k I like the escape character discussion.
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2020-11-10 08:06:28 insep someone has already tried to abuse them? :D
2020-11-10 08:07:06 Seirdy low-key: migadu++
2020-11-10 08:07:30 Seirdy low-key: if you use your own domain for emails you can switch pretty easily
2020-11-10 08:07:47 Seirdy without having to tell everyone in your abook "yo fellas i changed my email"
2020-11-10 08:07:58 ew0k insep: I haven't read all the latest emails yet, but I wouldn't be surprised!
2020-11-10 08:08:23 low-key Yeah, I started using my own domain now
2020-11-10 08:08:40 Seirdy low-key: there's also mblaze: https://github.com/leahneukirchen/mblaze
2020-11-10 08:09:18 low-key I was using my own domain on ProtonMail too but then the pm.me address sounded a lot better and that's the one I ended up giving out to everybody
2020-11-10 08:09:18 insep wait, what escape characters are we talking about exactly? \\ or ansi escape codes?
2020-11-10 08:09:36 Seirdy https://pleroma.envs.net/notice/A0pdzM7PxfPkwr1qPQ
2020-11-10 08:12:38 bie insep: \\ and the like
2020-11-10 08:12:43 low-key Seirdy: that's handy. I ended up using mutt-wizard
2020-11-10 08:12:46 bie personally i don't think it would be worth it
2020-11-10 08:12:58 low-key It set everything up very nicely
2020-11-10 08:13:14 insep oh then i have yet to abuse asci escape codes
2020-11-10 08:14:00 insep also wonder how existing servers would react to urls with cyrillic in them
2020-11-10 08:14:06 Seirdy low-key: the key is to understand that you aren't using one mail client; you're using one client for bulk search and filtering, one client for quick tasks, and possibly one client for fetching email (mbsync/isync or fdm) and one client for sending emails (msmtp or fdm).
2020-11-10 08:14:10 bie insep: should be fine if you percent encode them!
2020-11-10 08:14:21 bie insep: i've got some urls with japanese in them
2020-11-10 08:14:26 insep bie: i mean in base url
2020-11-10 08:14:55 insep like абвгд.рф, but probably they will need to be encoded in some way
2020-11-10 08:15:21 bie oh yeah! punycode
2020-11-10 08:15:30 insep yup
2020-11-10 08:15:33 low-key Seirdy: Yes, using mutt-wizard made me realise that's what the email on the terminal experience is like
2020-11-10 08:15:41 low-key With all the dependencies it pulled in
2020-11-10 08:16:16 Seirdy low-key: it's like mpd if you're into that. many clients for one backend, each with their own strengths/weaknesses. as opposed to one client that can do everything shittily.
2020-11-10 08:16:28 bie pretty sure my server would handle it... haven't released it yet, though
2020-11-10 08:16:41 low-key That's a nice analogy
2020-11-10 08:16:45 Seirdy low-key: also check out aerc: https://aerc-mail.org/
2020-11-10 08:16:46 low-key Hadn't thought of it in those terms
2020-11-10 08:16:56 low-key I'm actually impressed with how well all these parts play together
2020-11-10 08:17:10 low-key I did try aerc but the lack of colour is a turn off
2020-11-10 08:17:23 Seirdy it has color, but not 24-bit color
2020-11-10 08:17:42 Seirdy that's being worked on rn; you can search for tcell in the mailing list
2020-11-10 08:23:12 low-key ohh
2020-11-10 08:23:18 low-key i'll join the list then
2020-11-10 08:23:35 low-key because i did prefer its straightforwardness over this mutt and family approach
2020-11-10 08:24:56 Seirdy low-key: i just have everything go to my inbox, but i have mblaze scripts to sort read messages after i finish reading them. everything in my inbox is a to-do, and after i mark an item it gets picked up by a script and auto-sorted. sort of what like google's inbox was trying to do without all the proprietary webshit and lock-in
2020-11-10 08:28:17 low-key ah, that's quite the setup
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2020-11-10 08:38:30 Seirdy aite it's time for suya. nite nite gemininauts 💤
2020-11-10 08:38:52 boringcactus gn
2020-11-10 08:41:38 ew0k night night!
2020-11-10 08:45:40 bie seems to work! gemini://濁.jp/ (or gemini://xn--0ix.jp/)
2020-11-10 08:47:40 boringcactus oh nice
2020-11-10 08:48:15 boringcactus Lagrange doesn't do the Punycode translation either direction automatically
2020-11-10 08:48:36 boringcactus so thanks for also including the encoded domain name
2020-11-10 08:50:08 bie also had to figure out how to do a self-signed certificate with alternate names
2020-11-10 08:50:32 bie since my server only reads a single cert/key
2020-11-10 08:51:58 boringcactus it kicks ass that gmnisrv will just kinda figure the cert stuff out on its own
2020-11-10 08:52:10 bie yeah i kinda wanna do that too!
2020-11-10 08:52:30 Seirdy sike i didn't sleep yet nyahahah
2020-11-10 08:52:43 bie shouldn't be too hard, i'm already using libressl for everything
2020-11-10 08:52:44 boringcactus what if i sleep instead
2020-11-10 08:53:01 Seirdy boringcactus: no don't we'll be lonli
2020-11-10 08:53:17 bie Seirdy: where in the world are you located?
2020-11-10 08:53:30 Seirdy bie: south bay area, CA/US
2020-11-10 08:53:38 Seirdy UTC-08:00
2020-11-10 08:53:43 bie oohh right!
2020-11-10 08:53:50 bie yeah, guess it's getting a little late there
2020-11-10 08:54:02 ew0k I've never heard the term "punycode" before, and now that I read it I hear it in the voice of the Hulk: "PUNY CODE! WRRAAAARRRGH!!"
2020-11-10 08:54:28 Seirdy bie: doesn't seem to work in amfora, and haven't yet generated a cert for bombadillo on this machine...
2020-11-10 08:55:03 bie Seirdy: the xn--0ix.jp thing doesn't work either?
2020-11-10 08:55:10 Seirdy bie: one sec
2020-11-10 08:55:22 Seirdy oh that works
2020-11-10 08:55:44 bie oh nice!
2020-11-10 08:55:49 ew0k bie: Are you writing your own server?
2020-11-10 08:55:54 Seirdy bie: i can ping it too
2020-11-10 08:56:06 bie ew0k: yea, it's pretty basic though
2020-11-10 08:56:26 ew0k cool!
2020-11-10 08:56:35 bie aannnd i haven't tried it on anything other than openbsd
2020-11-10 08:57:06 bie but it's serving my "personal" thing at blekksprut.net and my record label at higeki.jp
2020-11-10 08:57:17 Seirdy ew0k: https://0x0.st/inLp.webp
2020-11-10 08:59:31 Seirdy yeah currently serving gemini://seirdy.one on gmnisrv, loving it.
2020-11-10 08:59:58 Seirdy looks like gmnisrv is poised to become the nginx equivalent of the gemini space
2020-11-10 09:00:13 Seirdy s/of/for/
2020-11-10 09:00:37 Seirdy ok it's suya time 4real. gnite 💤
2020-11-10 09:00:45 ew0k Seirdy: sleep well :)
2020-11-10 09:00:50 bie it looks good, yeah! part of the fun for me is writing my own stuff, so i'll keep doing it, tho
2020-11-10 09:00:53 bie Seirdy: night night
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2020-11-10 14:25:25 bie khuxkm: regarding your message on the mailing list, wouldn't tls closure alerts be enough to figure out if the entire response was sent? i might be way off base on this, still learning tls...
2020-11-10 14:30:28 bie yeah looking into it i think it might be... enough?
2020-11-10 14:45:54 @tomasino perhaps it's the old BBS guy in me, but i just figure i'll try to open the file and if it didn't work i know it got truncated
2020-11-10 14:46:41 bie yeah, i mean... that's what i do
2020-11-10 14:48:11 bie but if tls is already making some guarantees, there's even less of a need for content-length
2020-11-10 14:49:29 @tomasino yeah
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2020-11-10 15:18:21 khuxkm note that I'm not advocating for either of trevor's proposals; I'm advocating against the stance that "Gemini is for small text files" is a valid excuse
2020-11-10 15:18:43 khuxkm because let me ask you: what happens if someone wants to serve a large text file? then what?
2020-11-10 15:19:52 khuxkm someone could want to serve the entire text content of Subspace Emissary's Worlds Conquest (the longest piece of English literature ever written) over Gemini
2020-11-10 15:19:59 khuxkm not sure why, but they could
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2020-11-10 15:24:37 jcowan If you have it as text/gemini, why not?
2020-11-10 15:25:11 @tomasino i serve a large text file on team
2020-11-10 15:25:16 @tomasino the logs to this chat! :D
2020-11-10 15:26:28 khuxkm all I'm going to say is "imagine suggesting someone use another protocol when you yourself are making a protocol instead of using one that already exists"
2020-11-10 15:27:55 ★ tomasino shrugs
2020-11-10 15:28:10 @tomasino people want a progress bar? is that what all this is about?
2020-11-10 15:29:20 khuxkm kinda? there's that, which would be nice from a UX standpoint
2020-11-10 15:29:20 @tomasino just make a progress bar in windows style. Start quickly by animating to 50% in about a second. Then animate 50% of the remaining distance every second. If the connection ends, zip to 100%.
2020-11-10 15:29:37 @tomasino zeno's progress bar ftw
2020-11-10 15:30:47 xfnw lol
2020-11-10 15:32:55 mieum ,grab @tomasino
2020-11-10 15:32:55 tildebot [Quotes] Nothing found to quote
2020-11-10 15:33:03 mieum ,grab tomasino
2020-11-10 15:33:04 tildebot [Quotes] Quote added
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2020-11-10 15:37:59 @tomasino content length isn't enough ensure data came through properly. Even if you get the right amount it could have been garbled. We're not going to add checksums or hash comparisons or anything, so what exactly does it give us beyond a progress bar?
2020-11-10 15:38:59 @tomasino as far as progress bars go, they're useful for very large files or very slow connections, but mostly so you can know something is in progress. It's not much of an improvement over a display showing how much data has transferred. You don't get a time to complete estimate, but this is the slow-net. Take your time and wait
2020-11-10 15:39:13 @tomasino or you can remember, shoot... i'm on a slow connection, and cancel
2020-11-10 15:39:30 xfnw doesint tcp ensure data came through non-garbled?
2020-11-10 15:40:02 khuxkm >We're not going to add checksums or hash comparisons or anything
2020-11-10 15:40:06 khuxkm don't give them any ideas
2020-11-10 15:40:21 xfnw lol
2020-11-10 15:40:34 bie khuxkm: i'm totally on board with gemini being fine for large files as well
2020-11-10 15:40:38 khuxkm in any case the goal is to make sure you got as much data as you were supposed to (no truncated files
2020-11-10 15:40:41 khuxkm )
2020-11-10 15:40:46 nihilazo me: I'm going to rewrite my site generator in go, should be easy
2020-11-10 15:40:52 bie so far i don't miss any... special features or protocol support, though
2020-11-10 15:40:57 @tomasino oh, yeah, it totally does
2020-11-10 15:41:02 @tomasino ignore me. TCP ftw
2020-11-10 15:41:07 nihilazo also me: *writes a gemtext rendering engine for blackfriday because he wants to do markdown to gemtext "properly"*
2020-11-10 15:41:09 @tomasino TCP already checksums
2020-11-10 15:41:15 bie serving relatively large images and audio data has been working perfectly so far for me
2020-11-10 15:41:26 @tomasino and sequences with acks
2020-11-10 15:41:45 ehmry I was for checksums but now I'm against them, its gotten out of hand
2020-11-10 15:41:54 @tomasino so, flip my words around. We don't need content length for that cause TCP already does it. So all it gets us is progress bars!
2020-11-10 15:42:03 khuxkm don't mind me just porting my AO3 proxy script to gemini :)
2020-11-10 15:42:10 khuxkm tomasino: but what if the connection dies :P
2020-11-10 15:42:17 khuxkm either way I'm not actually arguing for a size param
2020-11-10 15:42:32 khuxkm just sick and tired of hearing the same dead argument every time being thrown around as if it means something
2020-11-10 15:42:42 xfnw would a never-ending gemini document follow the spec?
2020-11-10 15:42:56 @tomasino then you get a tcp connection failed message?
2020-11-10 15:43:13 khuxkm xfnw: honestly it kinda would and yet it kinda wouldn't
2020-11-10 15:43:31 ehmry well, progress bars are necessary, even if they are fake, people don't tolerate things without progress bars
2020-11-10 15:43:43 xfnw lol
2020-11-10 15:44:25 ehmry I don't like a lot of animation but there should be some visual feedback if there are bytes flowing
2020-11-10 15:44:39 @tomasino bytes flowing IS the feedback
2020-11-10 15:44:40 @tomasino show that
2020-11-10 15:44:56 @tomasino 300kb transferred...
2020-11-10 15:45:06 bie show them in 3d, firing against the user like a hail of bullets
2020-11-10 15:45:07 khuxkm ooh, a bytes flowing animation from a globe icon to a folder/computer (for download/normal request respectively)
2020-11-10 15:45:33 khuxkm make it programmatic so you can show the actual bytes moving from the computer to the globe icon and the globe icon to the computer
2020-11-10 15:45:44 @tomasino xfnw: the neverending document would never get loaded because right now the spec waits for transmission to end to display. If you use the gemini+stream concept it would work just fine, though
2020-11-10 15:45:44 khuxkm fuck now I really want to proof of concept this animation idea
2020-11-10 15:45:53 @tomasino haha
2020-11-10 15:46:44 ehmry if wget or curl didn't have animations no one would use them outside scripts
2020-11-10 15:47:35 bie i'm currently just showing a bouncing floppy disk icon when a request is still ongoingn
2020-11-10 15:48:38 @tomasino TCP sends a FIN packet at the end of its transmission. If you don't wait for the TLS close, there's that to look for. If you don't receive any data for {TIMEOUT} then assume broken connection and close.
2020-11-10 15:49:18 bie ++
2020-11-10 15:49:18 @tomasino that's one of several TCP half-open remediation strategies already out there in the wild
2020-11-10 15:51:00 alex11 this channel is so acticw
2020-11-10 15:51:02 alex11 active*
2020-11-10 15:51:27 @tomasino content length brings other challenges. In http if your content length value is smaller than bytes received those extras automatically feed into the next chunk, assuming there will be one
2020-11-10 15:51:48 @tomasino we don't have that here, so is that an error? what sort of error? content-length mismatch?
2020-11-10 15:52:15 @tomasino it is chatty!
2020-11-10 15:52:43 ericonr tomasino: isn't content-length a different thing from chunked encoding?
2020-11-10 15:53:06 @tomasino they can be used in tandem or apart
2020-11-10 15:53:16 @tomasino if you're not chunked then the extra bytes are part of the next http message
2020-11-10 15:53:32 @tomasino we also don't have a next message in gemini
2020-11-10 15:54:21 @tomasino anywho, it's a mess the further into it i dig. I should probably look at FTP instead of HTTP for paralles
2020-11-10 15:54:27 @tomasino parallels
2020-11-10 15:55:38 @tomasino does FTP send content length?
2020-11-10 15:55:45 @tomasino i'm not seeing it with a quick glance
2020-11-10 15:56:30 @tomasino soma dronezone is killin' it today
2020-11-10 15:56:32 ★ tomasino grooves
2020-11-10 15:57:23 @tomasino anyway, you see i'm not bringing any of this to the ML. I don't want to pour more fuel on the fire. Solderpunk already ruled on content-length. Lets talk about more pretty "something is happening" bars like the Netscape animated logo
2020-11-10 15:57:24 wgreenhouse dronezone++
2020-11-10 15:57:45 @tomasino anyone going to take the actual netscape logo animation for their client? that'd be fun
2020-11-10 16:20:30 ew0k tomasino: where can I find it??? :D
2020-11-10 16:20:39 ew0k and would that be legal?
2020-11-10 16:21:49 @tomasino legal? probably not, but who is gonna come after you for a gemini client
2020-11-10 16:21:53 @tomasino mozilla? nah
2020-11-10 16:22:33 ew0k I could call the client NetEscape
2020-11-10 16:22:43 @tomasino looks like AOL owns the trademark now
2020-11-10 16:23:46 @tomasino one of the old netscape developers has a website all about the logo animation through the years and some easter eggs he added
2020-11-10 16:23:54 @tomasino can't remember his name, but it might be fun to draw from
2020-11-10 16:44:11 nihilazo I wonder if this renderer will be useful to anybody else
2020-11-10 16:44:28 nihilazo I guess doing markdown to gemtext in golang is something at least somebody else might find useful
2020-11-10 16:46:21 ericonr nihilazo: are you doing it because you need it or because you want to do it?
2020-11-10 16:46:29 ericonr there is a python converter already
2020-11-10 16:46:32 nihilazo well, both
2020-11-10 16:46:39 nihilazo I want to rewrite my site generator in go and it uses markdown
2020-11-10 16:47:22 nihilazo but I wanted to do it more properly than parsing with regex like my clojure site generator does, so I'm using blackfriday as a parser
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2020-11-10 16:53:01 @tomasino i like Gary's ML email
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2020-11-10 16:53:05 @tomasino nice summary
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2020-11-10 16:58:42 acdw I can't keep track of all these ML emails
2020-11-10 17:00:09 khuxkm tomasino: except "you will receive a close_notify" is kinda dodging the fact that some servers might be in violation of the spec and not send a close_notify
2020-11-10 17:02:09 khuxkm but I'm done trying to argue with people on the ML
2020-11-10 17:02:43 nihilazo I'm on digest mode on the ML
2020-11-10 17:02:46 nihilazo there's too much otherwise
2020-11-10 17:04:59 khuxkm doveadm expunge -u $(whoami) mailbox Inbox header Sender "\"Gemini\" <gemini-bounces@lists.orbitalfox.eu>" all
2020-11-10 17:05:02 khuxkm doveadm purge
2020-11-10 17:05:09 khuxkm that's how I clean up my ML emails after I'm done reading them
2020-11-10 17:05:22 khuxkm if I really want to save a message I can archive it first
2020-11-10 17:07:15 @tomasino if a server is in violation of the spec for close_notify, why are we trying to fix it with another addition to the spec?
2020-11-10 17:07:23 @tomasino just follow the spec in the first place and you're good
2020-11-10 17:07:54 @tomasino i delete them as i read them. The archives are online
2020-11-10 17:09:24 acdw nihilazo: i should switch to digest mode, maybe
2020-11-10 17:09:39 acdw khuxkm: such a good diea
2020-11-10 17:09:58 ★ acdw setting up a autopurge
2020-11-10 17:11:27 jcowan insep: When you put non-ASCII characters into an URL, they are Punycoded in the domain name, but elsewhere they are escaped with %xx representing UTF-8 bytes
2020-11-10 17:14:20 bie my silly little guestbook now uses the UID from the client certificate instead of asking for a name (if available)...
2020-11-10 17:14:39 ddevault I've been wondering about what kinds of clever stuff we can stash into client certificates
2020-11-10 17:14:43 bie (no idea how i'll actually end up doing this, i'm just experimenting with client certs)
2020-11-10 17:14:44 khuxkm >just follow the spec in the first place and you're good
2020-11-10 17:14:49 khuxkm ah yes because that's so easy
2020-11-10 17:14:59 ddevault ugh, don't greentext on IRC
2020-11-10 17:15:01 ddevault cringe af
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2020-11-10 17:15:38 khuxkm I can't accept self signed client certificates because Python's SSL lib won't ask for a client cert and not verify it
2020-11-10 17:15:48 tane howdy
2020-11-10 17:15:55 ddevault file a bug with python
2020-11-10 17:16:59 khuxkm what am I supposed to say even
2020-11-10 17:17:07 khuxkm "hey your ssl lib won't let me ask for a self-signed cert"
2020-11-10 17:17:08 khuxkm ?
2020-11-10 17:17:12 ddevault yes
2020-11-10 17:17:14 @tomasino yep!
2020-11-10 17:17:15 @tomasino :D
2020-11-10 17:17:20 @tomasino that's a valid issue
2020-11-10 17:17:38 khuxkm how do you even get OpenSSL to accept it? I don't really want to bug someone without having an idea of a solution
2020-11-10 17:18:02 tane khuxkm, are you sure that it isn't possible, as in absolutely sure?
2020-11-10 17:18:13 ddevault >how do you even get OpenSSL to accept it?
2020-11-10 17:18:15 ddevault https://git.sr.ht/~sircmpwn/gmni/tree/master/src/tofu.c
2020-11-10 17:18:33 khuxkm tane: there's no codepath in the SSL library to do it
2020-11-10 17:18:39 ddevault also, fun fact, OpenSSL is not the only TLS implementation, nor the only one worth supporting or considering
2020-11-10 17:18:47 khuxkm well it's the one CPython ssl uses
2020-11-10 17:19:00 khuxkm although it does have support for Libre and Bear IIRC
2020-11-10 17:19:33 acdw what *is* greentext anyway? Like I do not understand it
2020-11-10 17:20:12 ★ xfnw likes libressl
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2020-11-10 17:21:08 @tomasino it's texted turned green in the terminal, acdw
2020-11-10 17:21:14 @tomasino you can pass color codes in IRC
2020-11-10 17:21:15 insep > not knowing what is greentext
2020-11-10 17:21:19 @tomasino some clients blow up on them, though
2020-11-10 17:22:05 @tomasino "in the terminal" isn't quite right. just color change in IRC. gui clients can support them too
2020-11-10 17:23:06 ★ ddevault passionately dislikes libressl
2020-11-10 17:23:25 bie ddevault: wow why?
2020-11-10 17:24:03 ddevault if they're going to break compatibility as severely as they had then they had better fucking change their header/library/pkg-config installation path so it doesn't conflict with openssl
2020-11-10 17:24:15 @tomasino six fingers on its right hand, killed his father, should prepare to die
2020-11-10 17:24:23 ddevault they've diverged well over the acceptable line for a "compatible" implementation
2020-11-10 17:24:49 bie ehh, fair enough
2020-11-10 17:25:02 insep mesalink anyone? :^)
2020-11-10 17:25:04 bie doesn't really affect me since i don't use the protable version
2020-11-10 17:25:05 bie portable
2020-11-10 17:25:49 ddevault if they wanted to make a compatible, but better openssl, they failed
2020-11-10 17:25:57 ddevault if they wanted to make a good TLS library, starting from the openssl codebase is fucking dumb
2020-11-10 17:30:31 ew0k The ML. It's... active...
2020-11-10 17:30:31 acdw tomasino: I know about the ciolor part, i just mean like,,,, it's a 4chan thing right? like, why?!
2020-11-10 17:30:35 acdw so. active
2020-11-10 17:31:17 acdw also yes ddevault ---- i agree with libressl. i had to monkey-patch gmnisrv to get it to run a test server on Void
2020-11-10 17:31:22 acdw b/c void don't have openssl
2020-11-10 17:31:28 acdw it's like,,, puh
2020-11-10 17:31:38 ddevault the worst is that libressl users have been lied to and told that it's compatible
2020-11-10 17:31:44 acdw ^ I know i was
2020-11-10 17:31:46 ddevault and then come bother me about it when their incompatible implementation can't compile my software
2020-11-10 17:31:55 ddevault well, it ain't my fault, go bitch to someone else
2020-11-10 17:32:02 acdw lol yeah -- saw an issue on your ML, decided not to say anything
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2020-11-10 17:35:22 @tomasino oh, didn't know there was a 4chan thing. Lets avoid those
2020-11-10 17:36:10 acdw haha
2020-11-10 17:36:33 acdw literally the only thing i know about it; maybe khuxkm can illuminate the rest?
2020-11-10 17:37:15 ddevault using > to quote people is not a 4chan thing; doing it in green is
2020-11-10 17:37:28 ddevault it's pretty cringe to go out of your way to signal 4channer status on IRC
2020-11-10 17:37:36 ddevault that's all that really needs to be said, I think.
2020-11-10 17:40:28 acdw lol
2020-11-10 17:40:37 ★ acdw is a normie apparently
2020-11-10 17:55:00 jcowan In particular, > is also used in git-flavored Markdown, and of course in email and Usenet before each line.
2020-11-10 17:55:19 khuxkm fine geez I'll stop >:(
2020-11-10 17:55:23 khuxkm you're cringe too
2020-11-10 17:56:10 acdw what even is 4chan? that's a hacker right?
2020-11-10 18:02:11 khuxkm ah yes
2020-11-10 18:02:17 khuxkm the mysterious hacker known as 4chan
2020-11-10 18:02:34 acdw :P
2020-11-10 18:03:35 khuxkm >I'm tempted to buy one of those vanity domains like willgeminisupportescaping.com
2020-11-10 18:03:41 khuxkm why not willgemini.support
2020-11-10 18:03:48 acdw is .support a tld?
2020-11-10 18:03:54 ▬▬▶ ericonr has joined #gemini
2020-11-10 18:04:00 khuxkm then you can have willgemini.support/escaping, willgemini.support/contentlength
2020-11-10 18:04:01 acdw also the reply was similar -- willgeminisupport.com
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2020-11-10 18:04:12 khuxkm https://data.iana.org/TLD/tlds-alpha-by-domain.txt it's on the list
2020-11-10 18:04:17 acdw oh neat
2020-11-10 18:04:21 ★ acdw checks on namecheap
2020-11-10 18:04:33 acdw i do not need to buy another domain
2020-11-10 18:04:42 acdw should be a .gemini tld
2020-11-10 18:04:52 acdw oh it's *only* 4.80 a eyar
2020-11-10 18:10:14 khuxkm 5 bucks a year? to point people at gemini://willgemini.support/italics and have it tell them NO
2020-11-10 18:10:19 khuxkm seems worth it to me
2020-11-10 18:13:35 acdw haha
2020-11-10 18:13:45 acdw hmmm
2020-11-10 18:13:47 acdw mayvbe
2020-11-10 18:13:50 acdw lemme think on it
2020-11-10 18:16:55 nihilazo YEAH DO IT
2020-11-10 18:16:58 nihilazo well worth it
2020-11-10 18:17:14 acdw baahhhhh
2020-11-10 18:17:21 acdw idk about the mememememes
2020-11-10 18:17:25 acdw you could do it nihilazo
2020-11-10 18:17:38 nihilazo I would buy that domain for the memes
2020-11-10 18:18:03 nihilazo but it'd have to redirect to a "will gemini support" thing on my breadpunk because I don't have my own gemini post
2020-11-10 18:18:05 nihilazo s/post/host
2020-11-10 18:18:17 nihilazo ACTUALLY y'know that wouldn't work
2020-11-10 18:18:28 nihilazo because the thingy that domain registrars use for that is HTTP
2020-11-10 18:18:34 nihilazo :(
2020-11-10 18:18:35 acdw if you buy the domain i'll route it
2020-11-10 18:18:46 acdw um no not exactly
2020-11-10 18:18:56 acdw DNS != HTTP
2020-11-10 18:19:07 nihilazo well, if you are trying to point a domain at something that is on like, example.com/foo rather than foo.example.com
2020-11-10 18:19:12 nihilazo I think that uses an http redirect
2020-11-10 18:19:24 nihilazo at least, I had to pick what http code to use, so I guess that is what it's using
2020-11-10 18:19:55 nihilazo but if you have something I can point the DNS at, sure
2020-11-10 18:20:08 nihilazo I'm willing to pay $5 a year for months
2020-11-10 18:20:11 nihilazo s/months/memes
2020-11-10 18:21:02 acdw haha sure
2020-11-10 18:21:21 acdw i think the renew is 14.88 a year
2020-11-10 18:21:29 nihilazo oh hmm
2020-11-10 18:21:31 nihilazo that's a bit more
2020-11-10 18:21:33 acdw yeah
2020-11-10 18:21:38 acdw that's where they get ya
2020-11-10 18:22:03 nihilazo not sure I'm willing to pay 15 a year for the meme
2020-11-10 18:22:12 nihilazo should we split the cost
2020-11-10 18:22:15 nihilazo lmao
2020-11-10 18:23:03 acdw lol that cost would be better spent on other things propbablay
2020-11-10 18:23:14 nihilazo true
2020-11-10 18:23:22 nihilazo whatever, it was a fun idea
2020-11-10 18:23:30 ★ nihilazo goes back to writing his markdown renderer
2020-11-10 18:24:02 nihilazo current test suite: running the daringfireball markdown test suite through it and then reading if the output looks good enough
2020-11-10 18:25:17 acdw haha nice
2020-11-10 18:25:48 nihilazo soon I'm going to use the same tests but check against actual gemtext files
2020-11-10 18:25:56 nihilazo but for now, I'm eyeballing the tests
2020-11-10 18:26:48 nihilazo better than not testing at all, which is what I do with....all my other software
2020-11-10 18:26:52 acdw hahahahahah same
2020-11-10 18:26:58 nihilazo I just feel like there's a chance that other people might use this
2020-11-10 18:27:04 nihilazo so I should at least do *some* kind of testing
2020-11-10 18:28:25 nihilazo rn it can't handle tables or anything like that, but I'm planning to just say "don't use tables in your input" and call it there
2020-11-10 18:28:54 nihilazo (the parser handles tables, but I cba to write a thing to render nice looking tables for gemtext)
2020-11-10 18:29:16 acdw yeah that sounds like a toughie
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2020-11-10 18:40:51 khuxkm hmm
2020-11-10 18:41:01 khuxkm what should the default format coming out of my proxy be on Gemini
2020-11-10 18:41:23 khuxkm I mean, the HTML output is well-behaved enough, but no gemini client will actually just straight up render the HTML
2020-11-10 18:41:52 khuxkm My choices are HTML, AZW3, MOBI, EPUB, or PDF
2020-11-10 18:42:20 khuxkm I don't really want to do PDF, since the PDF render is kinda coocoo at times
2020-11-10 18:43:45 nihilazo y'know, idk why I want tests
2020-11-10 18:43:50 nihilazo let's just let this thing break in production
2020-11-10 18:43:56 nihilazo writing tests is too difficult
2020-11-10 18:43:59 nihilazo :D
2020-11-10 18:46:41 acdw khuxkm: maybe... epub?
2020-11-10 18:46:49 acdw why not gemtext?
2020-11-10 18:48:04 khuxkm right, because it's going to be easy to convert HTML -> Markdown -> gemtext :P
2020-11-10 18:48:09 khuxkm brb gotta go to study hall
2020-11-10 18:48:51 nihilazo I'm writing markdown -> gemtext rn
2020-11-10 18:49:11 acdw just .. html->gemtext?
2020-11-10 18:49:15 ▬▬▶ jonah_ has joined #gemini
2020-11-10 18:51:23 khuxkm can you do that?
2020-11-10 18:51:44 khuxkm also gemtext lacks table support, which means I'd need to convert the table of stats/info at the top to gemtext
2020-11-10 18:51:47 khuxkm could be done
2020-11-10 18:52:12 khuxkm for right now I'm going to make the output EPUB format by default, but I'll try and write a gemtext converter eventually
2020-11-10 18:52:26 khuxkm p/2
2020-11-10 18:52:27 khuxkm woops
2020-11-10 18:53:12 acdw k
2020-11-10 18:53:33 jonah_ has quit (The TLS connection was non-properly terminated.)
2020-11-10 18:54:12 khuxkm quick question: what's supposed to happen if you have a link line with a query in it? (i.e; `./list.cgi?Sonic%20the%20Hedgehog`)
2020-11-10 18:54:32 acdw what's suppsoed to happen where?
2020-11-10 18:54:54 khuxkm like, I have a link line
2020-11-10 18:55:03 acdw right
2020-11-10 18:55:20 khuxkm => ./list.gmi?Sonic%20the%20Hedgehog%20-%20All%20Media%20Types Sonic
2020-11-10 18:55:24 khuxkm there's an example
2020-11-10 18:55:46 khuxkm when I attempt to follow that link line from the vulpes proxy it leaves off the query
2020-11-10 18:55:49 khuxkm is that intended?
2020-11-10 18:55:53 acdw oh that's a bug i think
2020-11-10 18:56:14 acdw tho-- is the list.gmi a cgi script?
2020-11-10 18:56:24 acdw b/c idk what it would do with the query if it isn't
2020-11-10 18:56:24 khuxkm yes
2020-11-10 18:56:49 ★ khuxkm loads up amfora
2020-11-10 18:57:23 khuxkm amfora gives an uninformative CGI error
2020-11-10 18:57:27 khuxkm "CGI Error!"
2020-11-10 18:57:31 acdw like 52?
2020-11-10 18:57:32 ddevault I just want you guys to know that if any of your clients start requesting /favicon.ico, I'm going to start blackholing your IP addresses
2020-11-10 18:57:32 acdw or whatev
2020-11-10 18:57:40 acdw lol ddevault
2020-11-10 18:57:55 acdw the spec is favicon.txt, aCtUaLly
2020-11-10 18:58:03 acdw with a *single* emojo
2020-11-10 18:58:28 ddevault or I'll just feed /dev/urandom into your connection, forever
2020-11-10 18:58:45 acdw khuxkm: I'm guessing that (1) your link line example is typo'd as list.gmi b/c earlier you have link.cgi
2020-11-10 18:58:52 acdw and (2) maybe it's not chmod +x ?
2020-11-10 18:59:00 khuxkm ?
2020-11-10 18:59:03 acdw ddevault: that sounds like a neat use-case actually
2020-11-10 18:59:07 khuxkm oh
2020-11-10 18:59:08 khuxkm no
2020-11-10 18:59:10 acdw i think we need another status code for that
2020-11-10 18:59:12 boringcactus is gmnisrv going to add a FuckThesePeopleInParticular config option to do that then
2020-11-10 18:59:18 acdw like 27 O So Random
2020-11-10 18:59:21 alex11 has quit (Connection closed)
2020-11-10 18:59:29 khuxkm that's just me forgetting what extension I used
2020-11-10 18:59:36 khuxkm and yes it is in fact CGI
2020-11-10 18:59:44 khuxkm s/CGI/chmod +x/
2020-11-10 19:00:09 acdw hm then idk
2020-11-10 19:02:25 khuxkm ah the script itself was borked
2020-11-10 19:03:44 acdw ah
2020-11-10 19:03:49 acdw has quit (The TLS connection was non-properly terminated.)
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2020-11-10 19:14:17 khuxkm alright it's in a format I feel comfortable sharing
2020-11-10 19:14:25 khuxkm gemini://tilde.team/~khuxkm/ao3proxy/
2020-11-10 19:29:21 nihilazo should I make my gemini thingy put newlines around headers?
2020-11-10 19:29:26 nihilazo around ##s and ###s
2020-11-10 19:29:43 nihilazo like, have a blank line above and below them
2020-11-10 19:29:52 nihilazo it is something some people seem to do and others don't
2020-11-10 19:29:54 ddevault define thingy
2020-11-10 19:30:09 nihilazo markdown converter that probably only I will ever use
2020-11-10 19:30:16 ddevault you should probably put newlines in
2020-11-10 19:31:39 nihilazo also, I'm not sure how best to deal with markdown's nested lists, rn they are buggy
2020-11-10 19:31:53 ddevault I general I advise against converting from $format to gemtext at all
2020-11-10 19:31:55 ddevault for reasons like this
2020-11-10 19:32:02 ddevault it takes editorial discretion to make calls like that
2020-11-10 19:32:11 ddevault and gemtext shouldn't be a second-class citizen
2020-11-10 19:32:28 nihilazo yeah, true. I feel like the better move is to use gemtext as my input format
2020-11-10 19:32:50 nihilazo and then convert that into html for the web version
2020-11-10 19:33:50 nihilazo (well, a slightly modified gemtext that supports relative links and tags, although I was using a slightly modified markdown in the first place)
2020-11-10 19:34:00 ddevault personally I write two versions
2020-11-10 19:34:26 nihilazo I'm too lazy to do that, because I suck. But it is certainly the best way to go
2020-11-10 19:34:58 khuxkm well in my case I can't treat gemtext as a first-class citizen; AO3 doesn't support gemtext as a download format
2020-11-10 19:36:05 nihilazo the main thing is that I'd lose the editor tools I use for markdown if I moved to writing gemtext as my input format, but basically all I use of those (large amount of) editor tools is the ability to follow links in my editor
2020-11-10 19:36:16 nihilazo which would be very easy to do
2020-11-10 19:36:28 nihilazo (I think vim even has something like that built in?)
2020-11-10 19:36:44 khuxkm well I mean you can treat gemtext as just weird markdown syntax
2020-11-10 19:36:50 ddevault there is a gemtext plugin
2020-11-10 19:37:02 ddevault https://tildegit.org/sloum/gemini-vim-syntax
2020-11-10 19:37:10 ddevault I also set the following https://git.sr.ht/~sircmpwn/dotfiles/tree/master/.vimrc#L126
2020-11-10 19:38:40 nihilazo y'know now I think about it, I use basically no vimwiki features except what can be done with just "gf" in vim
2020-11-10 19:38:43 nihilazo why am I still using it
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2020-11-10 19:40:23 nihilazo that feels like the best idea, for my website (probably going to stick to vimwiki for other stuff) but now I feel like my markdown thing is a waste of development effort
2020-11-10 19:49:02 nihilazo and converting gemtext to HTML should be super easy given that gemtext is line oriented
2020-11-10 19:49:35 ddevault you could go as far as to serve up your HTML site from kineto
2020-11-10 19:52:10 nihilazo I think I'll probably write in gemtext, use a thing to deal with tags and stuff, then convert that to HTML (with some added stuff like a navbar that web users want for some reason) and just publish it to gemini
2020-11-10 19:52:24 nihilazo the HTML hosting I have is only static so I couldn't really use kineto
2020-11-10 19:56:55 nihilazo I wonder what the best way to do tags in a gemini file is. I kinda don't want to write front-matter on my gemtext. Maybe I'll do what I did with markdown which was :tag1:tag2: as the first line in the file
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2020-11-10 19:59:38 kensanata nihilazo: How about using #tag (no space)
2020-11-10 19:59:55 kensanata Wasn't there a proposal for tagging things like that in Gopher...
2020-11-10 20:00:28 nihilazo no doubt there was. I think these tags might end up getting removed in the output, this is for the sake of generating tag pages
2020-11-10 20:00:36 nihilazo like I have on gemini://breadpunk.club/~bagel rn
2020-11-10 20:01:25 kensanata I use the tag style I just proposed on my own pages these days, for what it's worth.
2020-11-10 20:01:57 nihilazo I think tomorrow I'm going to write the first version of my site generator to use gemtext as input
2020-11-10 20:02:20 nihilazo and generate html/tag stuff/rss feeds
2020-11-10 20:03:33 khuxkm nihilazo: I just have a list of tags at/near the top of the doc
2020-11-10 20:03:38 kensanata Better use Atom for CAPCOM, haha
2020-11-10 20:03:51 nihilazo yeah, Atom feeds rather than rss, that's what I mean
2020-11-10 20:03:59 nihilazo hoping there is a good go library for that because I am lazy
2020-11-10 20:04:05 khuxkm see gemini://tilde.team/~khuxkm/gemlog/
2020-11-10 20:04:36 khuxkm tbh I'm gonna do both Atom and RSS
2020-11-10 20:04:42 nihilazo oh, that works well too
2020-11-10 20:05:02 nihilazo and then I can just leave that in the file instead of trying to filter it out because it's also the human readable tag list
2020-11-10 20:05:11 khuxkm just haven't gotten around to doing any feedmaking yet
2020-11-10 20:05:14 khuxkm yep
2020-11-10 20:06:05 nihilazo seems that there is indeed go libraries for feeds
2020-11-10 20:06:07 nihilazo nice
2020-11-10 20:06:19 nihilazo I guess I need to keep track of the edit date of files to do that too
2020-11-10 20:06:55 kiedtl regarding analytics: what do you all think of a simple visitor counter that logs *only* the url, client addr/port/host/user, the client tls hash? would any of you consider that unethical? I was experimenting with a CGI analytics thing that would do that.
2020-11-10 20:07:40 nihilazo idk. Analytics are dumb idk why you need them
2020-11-10 20:07:48 kiedtl I'm just experimenting
2020-11-10 20:08:02 nihilazo for gemini especially. Because it's gonna be the same few people always who, tbh, are probably also members of this IRC channel
2020-11-10 20:08:29 kiedtl again, I'm just experimenting. It's temporary.
2020-11-10 20:08:46 makeworld kiedtl: I'm not a big fan of IP logging, but I wouldn't say that's unethical, that's the nature of a network request
2020-11-10 20:08:56 kiedtl ok
2020-11-10 20:09:03 kiedtl I mean, the server logs that stuff anyways
2020-11-10 20:09:09 makeworld But I think not logging IP would be nicer, bc it can actually be used to identify people
2020-11-10 20:09:22 kiedtl ah, I see
2020-11-10 20:09:25 makeworld Yeah, mine too. But if you're making the choice it's nice
2020-11-10 20:10:29 kensanata kiedtl: Also, under the GDPR, IP numbers are personal information, more or less.
2020-11-10 20:11:31 kiedtl Oh. I wasn't aware of that.
2020-11-10 20:12:02 kiedtl I was using it solely for the purpose of identifying how many *unique* visitors I had
2020-11-10 20:12:03 kensanata Example page: https://gdpr-info.com/dynamic-ip-addresses-personal-data/
2020-11-10 20:12:44 makeworld kiedtl: I do the same
2020-11-10 20:13:12 makeworld Idk, again it's the nature of a network request
2020-11-10 20:13:40 kensanata kiedtl: Sure. My position is that the GDPR is a huge drag. Will you do a privacy notice explaining how the logging is necessary? Will you enumerate the uses you will make of the number? Will you allow people to opt out? Will you allow people to delete their data? Uuuugh, all of that gives me a headache.
2020-11-10 20:13:50 makeworld Maybe you could hash them? But I guess it's super easy to reverse that
2020-11-10 20:14:48 makeworld If you use a salt that would be nice maybe
2020-11-10 20:15:02 kensanata kiedtl: And you most likely won't get dragged to court. There are much bigger fish to fry. But then again, the law and regulations often match what people think is right, and so if you ask what people think of it, looking at the law is not a bad place to start.
2020-11-10 20:15:04 kiedtl hmm. hashing+salt sounds like a good idea
2020-11-10 20:15:11 kensanata Yeah.
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2020-11-10 20:15:48 kiedtl I don't expect to get sued, but yeah, I don't want to violate the law anyways, lol...
2020-11-10 20:16:09 ew0k One important thing to remember about GDPR is that it only applies to organizations
2020-11-10 20:17:49 ew0k an individual can do what they like. I am, for example, free to collect all the info I can of anyone in this channel and store it in a plain text file available on my website. It’s bad form, but not a breach of GDPR
2020-11-10 20:19:13 kensanata It's an interesting sidetreck that doesn't change my position regarding the moral compass that the law can provide. Here's a site saying: "In the case of personal or household activities, the Information Commissioner’s Office in the UK outlines the exemption as being the processing of personal data in the course of a ‘purely’ personal or household activity…"
2020-11-10 20:19:20 kensanata "… with “no connection to a professional or commercial activity”. Meaning that if you were only to use personal data, such as an address or name, for writing to friends or family, GDPR in this case would not be applicable to the given individual."
2020-11-10 20:19:57 kensanata https://www.hutsix.io/does-gdpr-apply-to-individuals/
2020-11-10 20:20:28 ew0k Concerning ethics I would consider it perfectly okay to store any and all data about visitors tonyour personal server. It’s what you *do* with the data that makes the difference
2020-11-10 20:20:36 kensanata Hm.
2020-11-10 20:20:54 kiedtl Honestly, I wouldn't want someone storing my sensitive personal info without my permission
2020-11-10 20:20:55 helby funny things is, that it's bullshit
2020-11-10 20:20:58 kiedtl even if they do nothing with it
2020-11-10 20:21:05 helby bc. these user data re useless
2020-11-10 20:21:50 helby it's like all thse idiots who put analytics in a web, however never make any decision - action regarding output
2020-11-10 20:22:08 kiedtl they just want self-esteem, I suppose
2020-11-10 20:22:49 helby no, it's like a standard to just put so much crap at web as possible
2020-11-10 20:23:10 kiedtl well, when I first created my website, that's the reason I put analytics in there ;)
2020-11-10 20:23:56 helby then check every day these 5 visitors and analyze it ;)
2020-11-10 20:24:05 ew0k I agree with helby in that nothing should be saved indefinitely just for the sake of it. But if you want to count individual visitors then by all means do that for a period.
2020-11-10 20:25:29 helby be careful there, bc. u can recognize u are only visitor of your crap ;)
2020-11-10 20:26:13 kiedtl heh
2020-11-10 20:26:37 ew0k helby: that’s why I don’t have any analytics on my server XD
2020-11-10 20:27:01 helby that's good, if it's not a business
2020-11-10 20:27:16 helby bc. low number of visitors can push to stop posting
2020-11-10 20:27:23 helby you
2020-11-10 20:27:46 helby but overal long term it can be the most visited piece online :) if you don't lose your hope
2020-11-10 20:27:55 ew0k I think I have waaaaybmore visitors on my gemlog than my web page
2020-11-10 20:28:10 ew0k Possibly three or four people
2020-11-10 20:28:23 helby so definitely u need analytics for web ;)
2020-11-10 20:28:29 ew0k lol
2020-11-10 20:28:51 helby u need to know what a day in month somebody by mistake visit your web
2020-11-10 20:29:00 helby from india
2020-11-10 20:29:13 kiedtl lolol
2020-11-10 20:29:16 ew0k my web site only contains a few files I link to sometimes, and some contact info for me. There aren’t really regular updates
2020-11-10 20:29:37 kiedtl I was pleasantly surprised when I found I got 30-40 visitors a week on my HTTPS website.
2020-11-10 20:29:43 ew0k anyways, I’m off to bed now :) night night!
2020-11-10 20:29:46 kiedtl But that's possibly only because I linked to it from my gh prof
2020-11-10 20:29:48 kiedtl gn!
2020-11-10 20:30:13 helby monetize! ;)
2020-11-10 20:30:28 gremax has quit (Client exited)
2020-11-10 20:30:33 aravk gn kiedtl
2020-11-10 20:30:47 kiedtl I was telling ew0k good night ;)
2020-11-10 20:30:51 aravk oh
2020-11-10 20:30:53 aravk welp
2020-11-10 20:30:57 kiedtl it's only about 1500 here
2020-11-10 20:31:02 aravk gn ew0k
2020-11-10 20:31:10 aravk ,time kiedtl
2020-11-10 20:31:16 kiedtl ,w kiedtl
2020-11-10 20:31:16 tildebot [Weather] (kiedtl) North Pole | -13C/8F | Overcast Clouds | Humidity: 96% | Wind: 13.5km/h/8.4mi/h
2020-11-10 20:31:29 aravk try ,time?
2020-11-10 20:31:33 kiedtl ,time
2020-11-10 20:31:37 aravk huh
2020-11-10 20:31:39 aravk weird
2020-11-10 20:31:40 kiedtl bitbot doesn't know the time of the north pole
2020-11-10 20:31:52 kiedtl xfnw filed a bug report, iirc. but it hasn't been fixed yet
2020-11-10 20:32:02 aravk that's hilarious
2020-11-10 20:32:02 helby ,w helby
2020-11-10 20:32:04 tildebot [Weather] Area A (Bamfield), British Columbia, Canada | 7C/44F | Broken Clouds | Humidity: 92% | Wind: 3.2km/h/2.0mi/h
2020-11-10 20:32:13 aravk ,time helby
2020-11-10 20:32:14 tildebot [Time] It is 2020-11-10 12:32:14 UTC-8 in Area A (Bamfield), British Columbia, Canada
2020-11-10 20:32:15 kiedtl well I mean technically there's no time at the north pole, lol
2020-11-10 20:32:21 helby I am Canada, cool
2020-11-10 20:32:22 aravk really??
2020-11-10 20:32:27 kiedtl ,c u location south pole
2020-11-10 20:32:28 tildebot [Config] Config 'location' set to {'timezone': 'Pacific/Auckland', 'lat': -90.0, 'lon': 0.0, 'name': 'South Pole'}
2020-11-10 20:32:32 kiedtl helby: you need to set your location
2020-11-10 20:32:55 alex11 is there like, any security risk at all to using outdated gemini clients? surely with such a simple protocol there's little that can go wrong
2020-11-10 20:33:04 aravk do ,config u location <loc>
2020-11-10 20:33:10 helby no
2020-11-10 20:33:12 helby Canada is okay
2020-11-10 20:33:16 kiedtl lol
2020-11-10 20:33:21 ericonr alex11: I don't think date is the matter
2020-11-10 20:33:27 ericonr anyone can write buffer overflows
2020-11-10 20:34:13 aravk alex11: I don't think gemini clients age
2020-11-10 20:34:21 ericonr just hope it's widely enough used that any security bugs are apparent as user bugs :P
2020-11-10 20:34:30 ericonr or trust that attacking gemini has little to no value
2020-11-10 20:34:35 xfnw kiedtl: the north pole has no timezone, it just confuses bitbot because the time api is weird
2020-11-10 20:34:47 kiedtl yes, ik
2020-11-10 20:34:51 ericonr it's worth a lot more to just phish people on the normal web
2020-11-10 20:35:01 helby well how is it outdated? I thought gemini was just born
2020-11-10 20:35:02 kiedtl any security bugs would originate in libtls, no?
2020-11-10 20:35:18 aravk not necessarily
2020-11-10 20:35:30 aravk everything can have security bugs
2020-11-10 20:35:36 kiedtl true
2020-11-10 20:35:49 kiedtl I haven't implemented a gemini client, so idk
2020-11-10 20:36:12 ericonr no matter how pretty the bytes given to you by your SSL engine, you can still screw up
2020-11-10 20:36:39 helby openssl will have a lot of them, so
2020-11-10 20:36:48 kiedtl for example, if you `eval` the response body?
2020-11-10 20:36:53 ericonr that said, anyone attacking gemini users is dumb (or well, a troll)
2020-11-10 20:37:20 ericonr kiedtl: how else would you implement calculator-as-a-service over gemini?!!??
2020-11-10 20:37:23 kiedtl idk. I was just thinking of something that could happen to bollux
2020-11-10 20:37:39 kiedtl ericonr: cgi?
2020-11-10 20:39:34 ericonr well you could still use eval() in gci, couldn't you?
2020-11-10 20:40:14 kiedtl but thats too compwex
2020-11-10 20:44:31 kensanata as for website popularity: I think simply counting hits is not enough. The number of bot hits is significant.
2020-11-10 20:45:59 kensanata On my site, more than 20% of hits are bots, and that's with a huuuge block list.
2020-11-10 20:47:26 nihilazo hi, I have a request I would like to make
2020-11-10 20:47:51 nihilazo actually I don't think it'd work nvm
2020-11-10 20:49:05 nihilazo I'd like to redirect a subdomain on itwont.work to my gemini capsule on breadpunk but I'd need somebody who could set that up to do that bc I can't do it directly
2020-11-10 21:08:53 kensanata has quit (The TLS connection was non-properly terminated.)
2020-11-10 21:16:01 ▬▬▶ acdw3 has joined #gemini
2020-11-10 21:16:39 kayw has quit (Ping timeout: 120 seconds)
2020-11-10 21:18:51 ℹ acdw3 is now known as acdw200
2020-11-10 21:18:59 ℹ acdw200 is now known as acdw2k2k
2020-11-10 21:20:01 acdw2k2k kiedtl: you said bollux? eh?
2020-11-10 21:20:34 acdw2k2k nihilazo: also what's this re breadpunk? eh?
2020-11-10 21:20:56 nihilazo I'd like to make like, a gemini.itwont.work that redirects to my breadpunk capsule
2020-11-10 21:21:05 nihilazo but I can't do it w/ just what the registrar has
2020-11-10 21:21:11 acdw2k2k oh ah
2020-11-10 21:21:13 acdw2k2k hm
2020-11-10 21:21:19 acdw2k2k uh
2020-11-10 21:21:20 acdw2k2k OH
2020-11-10 21:21:21 acdw2k2k shit
2020-11-10 21:21:31 acdw2k2k i know what whoever did that HTTP-side did
2020-11-10 21:21:44 acdw2k2k could you email me? acdw@acdw.net
2020-11-10 21:21:51 acdw2k2k oh no now my email is public
2020-11-10 21:21:52 acdw2k2k :P
2020-11-10 21:28:21 @tomasino gemini://when.willgemini.support/?content-length
2020-11-10 21:28:22 @tomasino haha
2020-11-10 21:28:24 @tomasino i love this
2020-11-10 21:28:37 ★ kiedtl quietly hands acdw's email address to a nigerian lawyer
2020-11-10 21:29:01 kiedtl lol
2020-11-10 21:29:45 acdw2k2k NOOOO
2020-11-10 21:29:53 acdw2k2k shit did somebody buy it that fast?!
2020-11-10 21:30:14 djph kiedtl: don't forget all the fad diets and whatnot
2020-11-10 21:30:15 acdw2k2k who did this
2020-11-10 21:30:23 acdw2k2k i want some credit got dang it
2020-11-10 21:31:54 nihilazo tomasino: I get a connection refused
2020-11-10 21:31:58 nihilazo has quit (quit: WeeChat 2.9)
2020-11-10 21:32:02 makeworld Yeah same here
2020-11-10 21:32:03 ▬▬▶ nihilazo has joined #gemini
2020-11-10 21:32:08 acdw2k2k i got it!
2020-11-10 21:32:20 makeworld It worked for you??
2020-11-10 21:32:25 @tomasino i wonder if it's being worked on
2020-11-10 21:32:28 @tomasino up/down
2020-11-10 21:32:38 makeworld Who registered it?
2020-11-10 21:32:55 @tomasino René Wagner
2020-11-10 21:32:59 @tomasino it's on the ML
2020-11-10 21:33:14 @tomasino gemini://when.willgemini.support/?escaping - this link specifically
2020-11-10 21:33:54 makeworld Keep getting conn refused
2020-11-10 21:35:15 acdw2k2k hahahaha lolol
2020-11-10 21:35:43 nihilazo is this site working for other people?
2020-11-10 21:35:53 acdw2k2k worked for me via portal.mozz.us
2020-11-10 21:36:03 acdw2k2k well the once
2020-11-10 21:36:04 acdw2k2k not now
2020-11-10 21:36:08 acdw2k2k must be restarting the server
2020-11-10 21:36:13 makeworld Sounds like it's down yeah
2020-11-10 21:37:49 acdw2k2k dope af tho
2020-11-10 21:37:58 acdw2k2k this is my proudest contribution to geminispace, the idea
2020-11-10 21:38:03 acdw2k2k i'm an ideas man
2020-11-10 21:38:42 dacav has quit (quit: WeeChat 2.9)
2020-11-10 21:39:11 @tomasino well done
2020-11-10 21:39:13 makeworld Lolol
2020-11-10 21:40:32 ▬▬▶ kernel_pancake has joined #gemini
2020-11-10 21:41:19 nihilazo nice
2020-11-10 21:41:28 nihilazo somebody is willing to pay $15 a year for the meme
2020-11-10 21:41:33 nihilazo or they think that gemini will die within a year
2020-11-10 21:42:25 boringcactus or they'll stop caring in a year
2020-11-10 21:42:40 acdw2k2k :O
2020-11-10 21:42:41 acdw2k2k never
2020-11-10 21:42:46 boringcactus either about gemini or about the hilarious joke of just saying "never" to everything
2020-11-10 21:42:48 boringcactus presumably
2020-11-10 21:42:59 nihilazo when will gemini support networks?
2020-11-10 21:43:05 nihilazo when will gemini support arduino?
2020-11-10 21:43:23 nihilazo when will we start making "desktop" applications that are really gemini sites bundled with a browser?
2020-11-10 21:43:25 nihilazo :P
2020-11-10 21:43:32 kiedtl nevermore!
2020-11-10 21:43:38 nihilazo (although the idea of running stuff with an interface over gemini is actually cool to me)
2020-11-10 21:44:28 acdw2k2k boringcactus: sorry :/
2020-11-10 21:44:32 acdw2k2k oh shit
2020-11-10 21:44:35 acdw2k2k not about me, jeez
2020-11-10 21:44:36 acdw2k2k wow
2020-11-10 21:44:57 ▬▬▶ kayw has joined #gemini
2020-11-10 21:45:31 boringcactus when will gemini support bLoCkChAiN
2020-11-10 21:47:24 fleeky has quit (The TLS connection was non-properly terminated.)
2020-11-10 21:47:40 acdw2k2k lolol
2020-11-10 21:48:56 kayw never
2020-11-10 21:49:29 boringcactus god, there were some "Web3" shitcoin people in the Servo Matrix shortly after those Mozilla layoffs going "i think there's a future for Servo in Web3" and i was like
2020-11-10 21:49:36 boringcactus "wait what kind of buzzword is Web3"
2020-11-10 21:49:39 ▬▬▶ fleeky has joined #gemini
2020-11-10 21:49:42 boringcactus "oh it's fuckin shitcoins"
2020-11-10 21:50:10 nihilazo what is web3
2020-11-10 21:50:17 nihilazo and why does it sound like a mistake already
2020-11-10 21:50:22 nihilazo without knowing what it is
2020-11-10 21:50:31 boringcactus it's building DeCeNtRaLiZeD web technology On ThE bLoCkChAiN
2020-11-10 21:50:45 nihilazo oh it's blockchain
2020-11-10 21:50:47 boringcactus like ethereum's "dapps" but even more so, as far as i can tell
2020-11-10 21:50:47 nihilazo nvm
2020-11-10 21:50:55 nihilazo I do not understand blockchain people
2020-11-10 21:51:00 boringcactus neither do i
2020-11-10 21:51:10 boringcactus but i'm getting better at recognizing them
2020-11-10 21:51:22 nihilazo it's like, half people who just want to cash in on $NEW_TECH and half anarcho-capitalists trying to get rich quick off an unregulated market
2020-11-10 21:51:48 nihilazo (there was an interesting article linking the rise of crypto to the rise of extreme right-libertarianism and ancaps, I'd believe it)
2020-11-10 21:51:49 boringcactus yeah the speculators and the true believers are both insufferable
2020-11-10 21:53:02 nihilazo blockchain feels to me like one of those things
2020-11-10 21:53:13 boringcactus i should finish and publish that "no more append-only ledgers" post i've been vaguely planning for a bit
2020-11-10 21:53:17 nihilazo I read somewhere that there is this ideology that everything can be fixed with tech, even problems caused by tech
2020-11-10 21:53:25 nihilazo and blockchain feels like one of those things
2020-11-10 21:53:36 nihilazo "we can solve everything with blockchain"
2020-11-10 21:53:46 boringcactus techno-solutionism, iirc
2020-11-10 21:56:34 ★ acdw2k2k dapps, coughs, passes the pipe
2020-11-10 21:56:57 helby I finish with crypto after I lost my seed to btc waller :/
2020-11-10 21:57:03 acdw2k2k oh em gee you're right nihilazo
2020-11-10 21:57:03 helby wallet
2020-11-10 21:57:08 acdw2k2k aw
2020-11-10 21:57:15 acdw2k2k i was in crypto with dogecoin once
2020-11-10 21:57:17 @tomasino 3 minutes until Sci-Fi Radio
2020-11-10 21:57:18 acdw2k2k and also garlicoin
2020-11-10 21:57:21 acdw2k2k both big mistakes
2020-11-10 21:57:27 @tomasino come join #tilderadio and listen along
2020-11-10 21:57:29 boringcactus i bought like three humble bundles with dogecoin i mined
2020-11-10 21:57:30 nihilazo I have a little bit of vertcoin
2020-11-10 21:57:32 nihilazo well, not any more
2020-11-10 21:57:38 acdw2k2k wait tomasino: I thought that was ... oh it's not daylight savings any more
2020-11-10 21:57:40 nihilazo I had a little bit of vertcoin
2020-11-10 21:57:46 helby but relatively I used bitcoin for payments here and there and it was cool
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2020-11-10 21:58:03 @tomasino yeah, i might need to push this show back an hour later. it's becoming inconvenient and i keep missing my own show when i have late US-time meetings
2020-11-10 21:58:17 boringcactus and i cashed in all the fuckin Coinbase rewards, bc there are like a half dozen shitcoins that will give you $10 worth of their shitcoin for watching videos explaining the shitcoin
2020-11-10 21:58:44 boringcactus you need to doxx yourself to Coinbase bc anti money laundering and shit, but it's, like, 40-50 USD if you don't mind that
2020-11-10 21:58:55 boringcactus in theory ofc you can keep the shitcoin, but. why
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2020-11-10 22:00:07 helby now not sure if there is more linux distros or crypto currencies
2020-11-10 22:00:17 boringcactus the latter, probably
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2020-11-10 22:08:09 acdw well push it back past 6 CST and i can listen for sure
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2020-11-10 22:50:53 jcowan The South Pole, on the other hand, is on Pacific/Auckland time
2020-11-10 22:51:01 acdw huh
2020-11-10 22:51:05 acdw waht's the North Pole?
2020-11-10 22:51:14 acdw GMT?
2020-11-10 22:52:11 jcowan Nobody's there to care what it is.
2020-11-10 22:53:54 acdw :O
2020-11-10 22:54:01 acdw santa's there!!!
2020-11-10 22:54:39 jcowan Not according to the U.S. Postal Service, which sends mail addressed to the North Pole to the town of North Pole, Alaska
2020-11-10 22:56:09 jcowan 1 Santa Claus Lane, North Pole AK 9905 U.S.A.
2020-11-10 22:56:16 acdw haha yes
2020-11-10 22:56:17 @tomasino not all of it
2020-11-10 22:56:35 @tomasino like the rest of santa mail it has several destinations
2020-11-10 22:56:56 @tomasino besides, everyone knows the real santa is in Finland
2020-11-10 22:57:02 @tomasino Lapland
2020-11-10 22:57:25 @tomasino https://santaclausvillage.info/
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2020-11-10 23:01:27 kiedtl Yeah, I can assure you there's no one here
2020-11-10 23:01:31 kiedtl except the penguins
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2020-11-10 23:04:04 acdw tomasino; no, the real santa is in santa claus land: https://www.holidayworld.com/holiblog/2018/10/11/park-history-santa-claus-land-holiday-world/
2020-11-10 23:04:14 acdw kiedtl no penguins in north pole
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2020-11-10 23:08:51 kiedtl I think there should be at the magnetic north pole, no?
2020-11-10 23:10:18 acdw that's canada i think
2020-11-10 23:10:28 acdw wait, penguwines/
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2020-11-11 01:21:39 khuxkm >"we can solve everything with blockchain"
2020-11-11 01:21:48 khuxkm but can you solve blockchain with blockchain?
2020-11-11 01:22:22 acdw yes
2020-11-11 01:22:33 acdw yo dawg i heard you like blockchin
2020-11-11 01:22:41 acdw so i put a blockchain on your blockchain
2020-11-11 01:22:45 acdw so you can mine while you mine
2020-11-11 01:25:21 zephryn am i the only one who never got the blockchain hype
2020-11-11 01:25:25 acdw nope
2020-11-11 01:25:29 acdw i didn't get it either
2020-11-11 01:25:52 zephryn like i love decentralization but blockchain isn't always the best solution imo
2020-11-11 01:30:17 acdw *never the best solution
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2020-11-11 03:46:46 kiedtl I believe the #gemini log viewer I was working on is now fairly usuable.
2020-11-11 03:46:54 kiedtl gemini://tilde.team/~kiedtl/irc/gem
2020-11-11 03:47:03 kiedtl send nitpicks, please
2020-11-11 03:47:08 ★ kiedtl afk
2020-11-11 03:47:26 kiedtl I'll be back in a couple hours
2020-11-11 03:49:56 acdw ooh nice
2020-11-11 03:50:28 acdw ooh it's slow
2020-11-11 03:50:32 acdw oh nvm
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2020-11-11 10:14:43 tane howdy
2020-11-11 10:16:11 CoopDot Should we include "Don't suggest adding new headers. Yes, that includes content length" in the code of conduct? :P
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2020-11-11 10:29:05 ew0k CoopDot: maybe :D
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2020-11-11 11:25:50 CommunistWolf that TLS solves the "we don't know if we got the whole message or not" problem wasn't immediately apparent to me
2020-11-11 11:27:17 ehmry i don't think there is any "we don't know if we got the whole message or not"
2020-11-11 11:27:50 ehmry I thought the issue was "how much longer do I have to wait"
2020-11-11 11:33:29 ew0k Yup
2020-11-11 11:33:49 ew0k at least that’s what I thought too
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2020-11-11 12:26:36 ew0k More POST thoughts: gemini://perplexing.space/2020/post-to-my-wall.gmi
2020-11-11 12:56:56 acdw Oh dope
2020-11-11 12:57:30 acdw ew0k that's like, cursed and genius at the same time
2020-11-11 13:00:51 ew0k I know!
2020-11-11 13:01:42 ew0k I dislike the idea of email as POST because it doesn't offer encryption
2020-11-11 13:01:48 ew0k or at least not easily
2020-11-11 13:01:56 raiz time to reinvent email the gemini way
2020-11-11 13:02:55 ew0k raiz: I've thought about it... gemini://tilde.team/~ew0k/gemini-server-to-server-interactions.gmi
2020-11-11 13:03:02 @tomasino oh yay! you built the email to post thing! :D
2020-11-11 13:03:08 insep the result will be irc with multilines and backlog
2020-11-11 13:03:08 @tomasino i knew someone would do it. Woohoo
2020-11-11 13:03:16 ew0k tomasino: *I* didn't :D
2020-11-11 13:03:37 @tomasino well whoever did, yay!
2020-11-11 13:03:46 ew0k :D
2020-11-11 13:04:23 @tomasino as per my rant the other day, it's good to see people thinking in non-web ways at solutions
2020-11-11 13:04:55 raiz that's not what I exactly meant
2020-11-11 13:04:57 raiz lol
2020-11-11 13:05:30 raiz I meant a reimplementation of POP3/IMAP/SMTP in one minified universal protocol
2020-11-11 13:05:43 raiz basically reinventing email for the modern use
2020-11-11 13:06:11 raiz just like how gemini is a modern reinvention of http
2020-11-11 13:06:22 @tomasino eh, but it's not
2020-11-11 13:06:32 raiz how?
2020-11-11 13:06:42 @tomasino i mean, explicitly it's not in the faq introduction
2020-11-11 13:06:48 CoopDot I have thought about that for 20 years
2020-11-11 13:07:01 ew0k raiz: oh! A new protocol!
2020-11-11 13:07:12 @tomasino but go on with your email replacement
2020-11-11 13:07:14 raiz tomasino: it doesn't have to say that in the faq
2020-11-11 13:07:15 @tomasino that'll be fun to follow
2020-11-11 13:07:24 raiz I never said I'd do such thing yet lol
2020-11-11 13:07:25 raiz :)
2020-11-11 13:08:59 raiz when I stumbled upon gemini, I saw how it fixed everything wrong with http, I'd like to stumble upon some protocol that fixes everything wrong with email
2020-11-11 13:09:29 ericonr raiz: long form IRC :p
2020-11-11 13:09:38 ew0k If I did it I'd build it as a RESTful service on http, though. And in the same manner that I think Jessie should work: the sending server sends a link to data that the receiving server then fetches at its own leisure. That way the sender is validated through https/tls, instead of http signatures and whatever all the dns records and shit the email
2020-11-11 13:09:38 ew0k standard is bogged down with now does
2020-11-11 13:09:50 raiz IRC has lots of commands slow mail wouldn't need
2020-11-11 13:10:03 raiz ew0k: oh no
2020-11-11 13:10:19 insep ew0k: is the receiver validated?
2020-11-11 13:10:27 raiz you dont build a new protocol be reusing another protocol
2020-11-11 13:11:27 ew0k insep: it's authorized, as being the receiver of the unique link to the message. That can be sent to someone else, of course, but so can an email
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2020-11-11 13:12:35 ew0k when I send an email to blargh@stupidserver.com there's no guarantee that stupidserver.com doesn't put that in the inbox of every user on it, or forwards it to the whole world
2020-11-11 13:13:18 insep i don't think anyone should be allowed to read the request, maybe somehow encrypt it at least? better make it a part of a spec before someone implements it in a unsecure way :P
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2020-11-11 13:13:35 ew0k insep: it must always be over https, of course
2020-11-11 13:13:57 ew0k and no relaying like SMTP does
2020-11-11 13:14:39 ew0k I have no idea how forwarding or mailing lists would be handled, though :D
2020-11-11 13:15:06 insep we both are talking about jessie, right?
2020-11-11 13:15:09 ew0k although I'm partial to mailing lists being replaced by some sort of federated forum
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2020-11-11 13:16:11 ew0k insep: oh! Almost: Jessie is for gemini, but I was saying that if I were to invent a messaging standard to supplant SMTP I would build it on RESTful HTTP on the same idea as Jessie; that the sender sends a link that the receiver fetches info from
2020-11-11 13:16:44 insep ah ok
2020-11-11 13:16:55 acdw Ya heard of jmap?
2020-11-11 13:17:56 ew0k acdw: nope. Tell me more :)
2020-11-11 13:19:21 @tomasino it's basically what you described
2020-11-11 13:19:23 acdw I don't really know anything about it except fastmail says it's like an iteration of imap
2020-11-11 13:19:24 @tomasino but with json
2020-11-11 13:19:28 acdw https://jmap.io/
2020-11-11 13:19:29 @tomasino https://jmap.io/
2020-11-11 13:19:31 @tomasino heh
2020-11-11 13:19:33 @tomasino there's an faq
2020-11-11 13:19:35 acdw Jinx
2020-11-11 13:19:43 acdw You owe me a soda tomasino
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2020-11-11 13:19:51 @tomasino "JMAP is actually more REST-like than most "RESTful" APIs. It is stateless, highly cacheable, supports transparent intermediaries and provides a uniform interface for manipulating different resources. However, it doesn't use HTTP verbs to implement this."
2020-11-11 13:19:56 ★ tomasino sodas acdw
2020-11-11 13:20:44 CommunistWolf it's a lot simpler than imap, thank all that's holy
2020-11-11 13:26:28 acdw Mmm soda
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2020-11-11 13:30:16 kiedtl acdw: yeah, the CGI scripts are written in bash... Hopefully I'll be able to port them to mksh, or even POSIX sh, at some point in the future (which should make it a bit faster)
2020-11-11 13:34:09 acdw Hm?
2020-11-11 13:34:44 kiedtl You mentioned that the log viewer was pretty slow
2020-11-11 13:35:11 acdw Ooh yes!
2020-11-11 13:35:29 acdw Sorry that was more than 10 minutes ago 😜
2020-11-11 13:35:35 acdw Awesome
2020-11-11 13:35:52 kiedtl thanks!
2020-11-11 13:37:54 acdw I wonder if anyone's tried to write a sh compiler
2020-11-11 13:38:05 nihilazo as in, compiling sh scripts to executables?
2020-11-11 13:38:18 nihilazo you'd have to include all the programs that the sh script is calling I guess
2020-11-11 13:38:55 kiedtl it could just call them
2020-11-11 13:39:05 kiedtl and just compile all the built-in stuff
2020-11-11 13:39:12 insep i think there's some shell compiler
2020-11-11 13:39:30 insep https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shc_(shell_script_compiler)
2020-11-11 13:39:42 kiedtl huh
2020-11-11 13:39:58 insep but it's more of obfuscation method
2020-11-11 13:40:48 insep someone needs to do that with libmrsh
2020-11-11 13:40:49 nihilazo I want to write my gemini thing to be like, actually better than my old one
2020-11-11 13:41:00 nihilazo but I'm not sure what the best way to assign templates to files is
2020-11-11 13:41:23 nihilazo especially given that basically, I want almost all files to pass through unchanged but one file have some stuff added to it
2020-11-11 13:42:13 acdw Lol yes nihilazo
2020-11-11 13:42:21 acdw Tho you could just do system calls
2020-11-11 13:43:07 acdw Like a gemini SSG.?
2020-11-11 13:44:50 nihilazo yeah kinda
2020-11-11 13:45:05 CommunistWolf teach your server about a special file extension for templates
2020-11-11 13:45:10 nihilazo but basically all I want to do is convert relative links to absolute links and generate some tag pages
2020-11-11 13:45:11 CommunistWolf .gmi.tmpl or so, say
2020-11-11 13:45:21 nihilazo and then modify index.gmi to have the tag list in it
2020-11-11 13:45:23 ew0k is there a gemini client lib I can use in my browser? To do less coding myself :P
2020-11-11 13:46:38 nihilazo CommunistWolf I could do that but idk
2020-11-11 13:46:46 nihilazo I've no idea how I want things to work
2020-11-11 13:47:06 CommunistWolf that's certainly the first hurdle
2020-11-11 13:47:38 CommunistWolf pick an approach at random, try it out, let the experience inform your next attempt, repeat until happy?
2020-11-11 13:47:54 acdw ^^
2020-11-11 13:48:16 acdw I like using sh heredocs myself
2020-11-11 13:49:12 ew0k I've pondered building a gemini SSG too. But I mean... I built a shell script that updates my atom and spacewalk feeds after I've posted something... I guess that works for now even though I have to update my index.gmi manually
2020-11-11 13:49:19 insep ew0k: there are some, see gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/software/
2020-11-11 13:49:25 nihilazo I'm already on my first redo
2020-11-11 13:49:29 nihilazo of my site generator thingy
2020-11-11 13:49:38 nihilazo moving from markdown to input to gemtext as input
2020-11-11 13:49:47 insep i need to implement qt lib for gemini :D
2020-11-11 13:50:01 nihilazo but idk how to handle making a tag list on the index page
2020-11-11 13:50:13 nihilazo because the main way it's navigated will be via tags so I want that on the index page
2020-11-11 13:50:56 acdw How're your tags laid out on your pages?
2020-11-11 13:51:04 bie you could just do it by hand
2020-11-11 13:51:37 nihilazo could do, but managing anything by hand is effort
2020-11-11 13:51:52 nihilazo acdw: rn they're just "Tags:tag1,tag2,tag3" on the second line of each page
2020-11-11 13:51:52 bie ok, maybe you can't, i just see so many examples of extremely complex site generators being used for ~10 blog posts and an "about me" page
2020-11-11 13:52:00 nihilazo yeah
2020-11-11 13:52:06 nihilazo I think I do actually want automatic tag management
2020-11-11 13:52:11 nihilazo don't need much more than that really
2020-11-11 13:52:13 acdw Programmatic you'd need to loop thru all posts and extract tags, then build tag pages for each
2020-11-11 13:52:18 nihilazo yeah
2020-11-11 13:52:24 nihilazo and then link each of those tag pages onto the index page
2020-11-11 13:52:34 acdw Then, just loop thru the tag directory and generate a link for each page
2020-11-11 13:52:39 acdw Lol
2020-11-11 13:52:41 acdw Jinx
2020-11-11 13:52:50 acdw Awk could do that
2020-11-11 13:52:54 nihilazo but depending on how go templates work
2020-11-11 13:52:58 nihilazo I guess I'm thinking implementation details now
2020-11-11 13:52:59 acdw Oh go
2020-11-11 13:53:04 acdw Yeah idk go
2020-11-11 13:53:04 nihilazo yeah, I've decided to use go
2020-11-11 13:53:15 acdw I know shell lol
2020-11-11 13:53:38 nihilazo oh apparently
2020-11-11 13:53:42 nihilazo you can use $whatever in a go file
2020-11-11 13:53:43 CommunistWolf go's text/template is like a really cut-down jinja
2020-11-11 13:53:51 nihilazo so I just have to process the indexpage last
2020-11-11 13:53:56 nihilazo and use $tags or whatever
2020-11-11 13:53:59 nihilazo and that will be easy
2020-11-11 13:54:02 nihilazo I think
2020-11-11 13:54:19 acdw Wha
2020-11-11 13:54:23 nihilazo wait no
2020-11-11 13:54:28 nihilazo that's only for variables set within the thing
2020-11-11 13:54:32 acdw Def build index last
2020-11-11 13:54:40 nihilazo so I'd need to know to pass the tag list into the template
2020-11-11 13:54:50 nihilazo this is just me figuring out implementation at this point
2020-11-11 13:54:57 nihilazo or just have a struct for all the site data and pass that around
2020-11-11 13:55:02 nihilazo and each thing can take or add what it needs
2020-11-11 13:55:05 acdw You could just cat together index header, generated stuff, and footrr
2020-11-11 13:56:41 nihilazo yeah
2020-11-11 13:56:45 ew0k bie: In the past I've spent dozens of hours looking for simple SSGs or blogging/website software before realizing that I can just write plain html files in a couple of hours instead...
2020-11-11 13:56:47 nihilazo I think I know how I'm doing this
2020-11-11 13:56:50 bie are you just generating gemtext or something like html as well?
2020-11-11 13:56:55 nihilazo gemtext and html
2020-11-11 13:57:01 acdw Lol yep ew0k
2020-11-11 13:57:03 nihilazo although I'm doing everything in gemtext then just converting to html
2020-11-11 13:57:09 acdw That's super easy
2020-11-11 13:57:11 nihilazo because html is a secondary thing. Screw the web
2020-11-11 13:57:13 nihilazo yeah
2020-11-11 13:57:31 nihilazo so it goes input -> templated gemtext output -> html
2020-11-11 13:57:43 bie ew0k: lol yeah
2020-11-11 13:57:46 nihilazo the gemtext to html could well be a seperate program
2020-11-11 13:57:48 nihilazo idk
2020-11-11 13:57:51 nihilazo I'm still figuring it out
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2020-11-11 13:57:55 ew0k for my personal site I eventually built a bash script that updated a menu file and pieced together a few header/footer/style templates when I ran a command for it...
2020-11-11 13:58:00 bie depending on how complex you make the html you might not need the power of templates either
2020-11-11 13:58:03 nihilazo because it's super simple but I want to do it in a good way
2020-11-11 13:58:04 bie just do Fprintf
2020-11-11 13:58:05 acdw Bash++
2020-11-11 13:58:09 ew0k that worked really well, actually, but now I use WonderCMS
2020-11-11 13:58:13 acdw Bah
2020-11-11 13:58:24 nihilazo and by "a good way" I mean that I should be able to understand and extend it easly
2020-11-11 13:58:32 nihilazo which means, currently, overdesigning
2020-11-11 13:58:35 acdw I use my own SSG in shell
2020-11-11 14:00:20 nihilazo I could probably just write shell and awk
2020-11-11 14:00:26 nihilazo but I want to do this "properly"
2020-11-11 14:00:42 ew0k nihilazo: https://notabug.org/tinyrabbit/gmi2html <-- I wrote that, and then I found a link to https://github.com/RangerMauve/gemini-to-html on the gemini page
2020-11-11 14:01:33 nihilazo I'm probably going to do it myself but just for the sake of doing it
2020-11-11 14:01:40 nihilazo this is also a project for the sake of doing a thing
2020-11-11 14:01:52 ew0k I sympathize with that
2020-11-11 14:13:26 nihilazo and hopefully this ends up being like, not a mess like the other one
2020-11-11 14:13:42 nihilazo well, it's not super a mess but I want to do something DESIGNED
2020-11-11 14:13:47 nihilazo if that makes sense
2020-11-11 14:13:52 nihilazo rather than hacked together
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2020-11-11 14:18:26 ew0k nihilazo: makes total sense! I'd love to follow your progress, too :)
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2020-11-11 14:31:44 acdw Live code stream
2020-11-11 14:36:41 nihilazo hmm
2020-11-11 14:36:43 nihilazo maybe
2020-11-11 14:36:45 nihilazo live code stream!
2020-11-11 14:37:02 nihilazo or maybe that's dumb
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2020-11-11 15:26:55 acdw live! code! stream!
2020-11-11 15:29:40 nihilazo should I do a live code stream?
2020-11-11 15:29:51 tane yeah, now
2020-11-11 15:29:53 nihilazo I will in a bit maybe. Rn I'm trying to figure out, before I start writing any code, how I'll deal with feeds
2020-11-11 15:30:00 nihilazo I will in ~30 mins
2020-11-11 15:30:01 acdw do it do it
2020-11-11 15:30:06 acdw !remindme 30mins
2020-11-11 15:30:07 nihilazo got a podcast to finish listening to
2020-11-11 15:30:08 acdw wait
2020-11-11 15:30:14 acdw iooh waht podcast?
2020-11-11 15:30:21 nihilazo oh no ross and carrie
2020-11-11 15:31:34 CoopDot Hej. Detta är protokollet från dagens veckomöte.
2020-11-11 15:32:02 ★ acdw looks up ross & carrie
2020-11-11 15:32:07 acdw makes me think of Carrie & Lowell
2020-11-11 15:32:25 CoopDot Sorrp. Didn't mean to paste.
2020-11-11 15:32:50 CoopDot Sorry
2020-11-11 15:32:54 nihilazo is there any other place for me to stream that is better or should I just use my twitch account
2020-11-11 15:33:17 nihilazo like, does the tildeverse have a streaming service or smth lol
2020-11-11 15:35:15 nihilazo also, if I'm doing a live stream I want stream chat
2020-11-11 15:35:18 nihilazo lmao
2020-11-11 15:35:19 acdw i have no idea
2020-11-11 15:35:23 ★ acdw not a streamer
2020-11-11 15:35:27 nihilazo I'll just use twitch
2020-11-11 15:35:28 acdw there's a jitsi on tilde.team
2020-11-11 15:35:42 nihilazo nah it's fine, twitch works, I'm already set up for that as well
2020-11-11 15:35:47 ericonr I like streams with IRC chat
2020-11-11 15:36:14 acdw coo
2020-11-11 15:37:06 nihilazo should I make an IRC channel for this or is there a channel I can use for it
2020-11-11 15:37:08 nihilazo on tildechat
2020-11-11 15:37:15 nihilazo or just twitch chat or smth idk
2020-11-11 15:38:28 acdw just /join #nihilazo and we'll join you
2020-11-11 15:38:59 nihilazo alright, there is now a #nihilazo for stream chat
2020-11-11 15:46:46 kayw I think I might make my blog gemini only
2020-11-11 15:47:05 kayw and just use a gemini -> http proxy to forward it
2020-11-11 15:52:50 ew0k kayw: do iiiiiit!
2020-11-11 15:54:39 acdw do it do it
2020-11-11 15:54:44 acdw i need a /doit command
2020-11-11 16:18:58 ddevault the disadvantage of shilling for gemini on my HTTP site is that HN reads my gemini posts
2020-11-11 16:21:52 acdw oh so you're all the ML "we need content-length!" ;)
2020-11-11 16:22:13 acdw comes with clout i guess
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2020-11-11 16:36:11 ew0k ddevault: HN?
2020-11-11 16:37:16 ddevault ew0k: you're better left in ignorance
2020-11-11 16:37:58 ew0k ddevault: now I just want to know more :D
2020-11-11 16:38:21 ddevault hacker news
2020-11-11 16:48:25 khuxkm|lounge has quit (quit: RIP khuxkm|lounge 2017-2020)
2020-11-11 16:51:54 pokes i noticed that it had been slashdotted
2020-11-11 16:52:13 pokes but hey, it's a test of how many connections a gemini server can handle
2020-11-11 16:52:20 pokes do you have stats?
2020-11-11 16:52:47 pokes also, from one philadelphian to another: thanks for being an election worker
2020-11-11 16:56:44 ddevault my server is buggy, not overwhelmed
2020-11-11 16:57:11 ddevault and there were at least a few thousand hits, dunno, my logs rotate fast
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2020-11-11 16:59:34 pokes what server?
2020-11-11 17:02:49 insep acdw: why do people need content-length
2020-11-11 17:08:59 insep ah, for the progress
2020-11-11 17:09:02 insep meh
2020-11-11 17:09:37 makeworld I'll admit I like the idea of being able to keep the TLS connection open
2020-11-11 17:09:44 makeworld Like being able to reuse it
2020-11-11 17:10:04 makeworld Would be nice to have some benchmarks on the overhead it has
2020-11-11 17:13:17 admicos if we're doing optimizations then compression should also be something to think about
2020-11-11 17:14:21 insep +1 for compression, lz4 would be great :D
2020-11-11 17:14:32 admicos maybe on a file-level instead of protocol level though, would make it easier to implement
2020-11-11 17:14:55 ddevault pokes: gmnisrv
2020-11-11 17:15:04 khuxkm alright, I'm finally getting around to filing a bug report with python
2020-11-11 17:15:16 khuxkm (I've been busy :P)
2020-11-11 17:15:18 ericonr admicos: how do you tell a server you support compression, tho?
2020-11-11 17:15:39 ericonr I don't want to be served compressed data on a simple client
2020-11-11 17:16:03 khuxkm so I added the people on the SSL Expert List to the Nosy List
2020-11-11 17:16:19 admicos ericonr: that's the problem i'm thinking about though. getting compressed data is easy as it should have it's own mimetype
2020-11-11 17:16:25 admicos how would the client signal compression is ok
2020-11-11 17:18:12 khuxkm https://bugs.python.org/issue42326 i'm a big boy now (/s)
2020-11-11 17:24:06 ew0k admicos: it wouldn’t. It’s just another file received, and it’s up to each client what to do with it.
2020-11-11 17:24:48 ew0k khuxkm: well done!
2020-11-11 17:25:26 khuxkm well at first I was going to ask for a CERT_ASK that would just ask for a client cert and not do anything with it but then I realized that adding a verify_callback hook would be better
2020-11-11 17:25:31 admicos ew0k: if the server serves compressed files to a client that doesn't understand it, the usability wouldn't be great. if the server serves a non-compressed file to a compression-aware client, then compression has no point
2020-11-11 17:25:35 khuxkm s/better/more versatile/
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2020-11-11 17:27:15 khuxkm use URL path parameters?
2020-11-11 17:27:32 khuxkm gemini://tilde.team/~khuxkm/compressawaretext.txt;compress=lz4
2020-11-11 17:27:35 ew0k admicos: the client would save it as a downloaded file. Like any other it doesn’t understand
2020-11-11 17:28:13 khuxkm ew0k: but again, that hurts usability
2020-11-11 17:29:01 admicos khuxkm: that might work but servers that aren't compression-aware will fail then
2020-11-11 17:29:20 admicos unless doing two requests are ok
2020-11-11 17:30:45 khuxkm if you send it and the server returns 51 Not Found (like it should in this scenario) then you know that server isn't compression-aware
2020-11-11 17:30:54 khuxkm then you won't make that mistake twice
2020-11-11 17:31:10 khuxkm alternatively you could send it as a query but that precludes using compression and queries together
2020-11-11 17:31:24 admicos khuxkm: caching the failed state might be the best option so far, yeah
2020-11-11 17:32:50 admicos i guess it would be safe to assume the entire domain supports compression if a single compression request succeeds
2020-11-11 17:32:54 khuxkm although actually you'd want to request the gemini resource without caching just to be sure
2020-11-11 17:33:24 admicos the client could periodically check if compression still works (every x requests)
2020-11-11 17:33:27 khuxkm if the request gemini://example.com/test.txt;compress=lz4 fails, but gemini://example.com/test.txt succeeds
2020-11-11 17:33:50 khuxkm then the server doesn't know what compression is
2020-11-11 17:34:29 khuxkm but if they both fail with 51 then chances are test.txt just doesn't exist
2020-11-11 17:36:01 ericonr seems a bit inneficient
2020-11-11 17:36:02 admicos a possible problem with asking for compression like that would be that it can make a precedent for more extensions
2020-11-11 17:37:51 admicos a more specific problem with this approach would be that servers would get bombarded with requests for all sorts of extensions
2020-11-11 17:38:09 admicos suddenly your client needs 5 requests to determine what to serve you
2020-11-11 17:38:17 khuxkm gemini://example.com/.well-known/host-meta
2020-11-11 17:38:32 khuxkm which enumerates the allowed extensions
2020-11-11 17:38:38 ericonr admicos: create gemini protocol versions and binary search through them :P
2020-11-11 17:38:46 ericonr or do that
2020-11-11 17:39:27 khuxkm then it's just one request, that can be cached, that you can trust the server will let you use those extensions
2020-11-11 17:40:06 khuxkm the great thing about gemini being so easy to implement is that any extensions that catch on will be ones in the best interest of the user (compression etc.)
2020-11-11 17:40:27 khuxkm since the client doesn't have to send anything anywhere
2020-11-11 17:40:36 khuxkm the only thing the client *has* to send is a URL
2020-11-11 17:40:45 khuxkm any extra params or such can be stripped off
2020-11-11 17:41:36 admicos it's easy to implement today, but what happens after extensions become more and more common
2020-11-11 17:42:10 khuxkm none of these extensions are required
2020-11-11 17:42:13 khuxkm none of them can be
2020-11-11 17:42:31 khuxkm because clients can just say "screw you I'm not sending these params" and the server has no recourse
2020-11-11 17:42:53 khuxkm you'd have to have one hell of a server to be able to convince people that they *must* send a certain set of params
2020-11-11 17:43:03 khuxkm not to mention the 1024 byte limit on the URL
2020-11-11 17:43:20 boringcactus well. your server could in theory just 51 on any non-params-decorated URL
2020-11-11 17:43:28 boringcactus but that'd be. weird
2020-11-11 17:43:55 boringcactus gotta say, reimplementing HTTP headers as MIME type parameters was bad, but reimplementing them as URL parameters isn't much better imo
2020-11-11 17:45:30 khuxkm boringcactus: and the complaint would be "your server keeps 51'ing my requests" and not "this client isn't forwarding these parameters"
2020-11-11 17:46:53 boringcactus gemini://example.website/index.gmi;Accept-Encoding=br&User-Agent=lagrange/0.9&Window-Size=1024x768
2020-11-11 17:48:41 admicos to be fair if you can manage to negotiate an extension with the server (like the host-meta thing above) you can just send headers in a dedicated place in the request since the server told you it knows how to handle it
2020-11-11 17:49:00 admicos and the entire point of the protocol is ruined
2020-11-11 17:49:58 khuxkm but the thing is, the server would need to be able to function without the extensions
2020-11-11 17:50:11 boringcactus well, only if it actually wanted to support all clients
2020-11-11 17:50:22 boringcactus we've got servers that will ignore clients that don't send SNI info
2020-11-11 17:50:30 admicos just because the server knows about it it doesn't mean it has to expect it
2020-11-11 17:50:35 boringcactus we've got applications that only work if the client has client cert support
2020-11-11 17:50:41 admicos a fallback codepath could definitely exist
2020-11-11 17:51:22 boringcactus "if your client doesn't support this, get a better client" is already a thing for some values of "this"
2020-11-11 17:51:23 khuxkm okay well the difference there is that SNI is mandatory for Gemini as per the spec
2020-11-11 17:51:35 khuxkm and client certs are the only sensible way to implement sessions
2020-11-11 17:51:51 boringcactus so far, it's all stuff that's actually in the spec, but if we're gonna go beyond the spec and add a bunch of nonstandard conventions who knows if that'll keep happening
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2020-11-11 17:55:32 kensanata Would the standard answer be to just use a different scheme, like people argued to use "titan" instead of "gemini" for uploads...
2020-11-11 17:55:53 kensanata Or "gemini+compress://example.org/"
2020-11-11 17:57:13 boringcactus that explodes OS URI handlers
2020-11-11 17:58:06 khuxkm alright, so I have a problem
2020-11-11 17:58:14 khuxkm I mean, I have lots of problems, but this one's a gemini problem
2020-11-11 17:58:34 khuxkm I'm trying to serve an EPUB file over Gemini using gemserv and CGI
2020-11-11 17:59:13 khuxkm when I manually run the CGI file with the query string provided, it spits out the header and then the EPUB file
2020-11-11 17:59:32 khuxkm but when I request it from gemserv I just get... nothing
2020-11-11 17:59:35 khuxkm an empty response
2020-11-11 18:02:10 boringcactus hmm what happens if you make your CGI application print something to stderr once it finishes sending the response
2020-11-11 18:02:49 kensanata The problem with people setting up their new servers and announcing them to the world even though they have but a single page up there and there is no clear "here be updates" part to it so I can't decide whether to add such sites to my subscriptions or not. So I don't. And that was is. When will they resurface again?
2020-11-11 18:05:11 helby holy crap u play with gemini a lot
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2020-11-11 18:07:53 acdw <insep> acdw: why do people need content-length
2020-11-11 18:07:55 acdw They don't
2020-11-11 18:08:26 acdw kensanata: yeppp
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2020-11-11 18:08:38 acdw i thought about an ANN post about gem.acdw.net, but
2020-11-11 18:08:42 acdw decided against it
2020-11-11 18:08:43 epoch I liked the magnet link hack to get content-length :P
2020-11-11 18:08:50 acdw lol twas great
2020-11-11 18:10:02 epoch x+y URI schemes usually mean something like protocol-x over protocol-y
2020-11-11 18:10:12 boringcactus once i get off my ass and make my static site generator for multihomed web/gemini content i'll announce gemini://boringcactus.com but until then there's no point
2020-11-11 18:11:07 epoch > explodes OS URI handlers
2020-11-11 18:11:14 epoch then the URI handlers need to be fixed
2020-11-11 18:11:15 epoch :P
2020-11-11 18:11:33 boringcactus you're not gonna register yourself as a handler for extensions you don't implement
2020-11-11 18:11:55 kensanata I think this is a zen slap moment. You're supposed to realise "oh, perhaps that's not such a great idea because client and server implementations will explode as well."
2020-11-11 18:12:01 epoch not handling something shouldn't cause explosions
2020-11-11 18:12:38 boringcactus not doing anything when the user is expecting you to do something counts, imo
2020-11-11 18:12:45 boringcactus but it's a stretch of the term "explosion"
2020-11-11 18:13:04 kensanata I'm just going to wait here until ever request also requests /.well-known/host-meta and compressed and inlined images and sound support and more
2020-11-11 18:13:08 epoch I was thinking things like, crash, or improperly parsing the URI
2020-11-11 18:13:24 boringcactus yeah those would be bad too
2020-11-11 18:13:30 epoch inb4 some implementation of URI parsing puts a space into a x+y uri scheme
2020-11-11 18:14:28 boringcactus like. with extensions, your options are "assume the server implements it, try without it if it doesn't" and "check .well-known/bullshit and use stuff from there"
2020-11-11 18:14:38 boringcactus and in either case now you have two requests
2020-11-11 18:15:16 boringcactus and that's gonna burn more bandwidth than compression will save, at least for some stuff
2020-11-11 18:15:26 acdw my thing about uri parsing is, the rfc has a regex
2020-11-11 18:15:27 ben has quit (quit: i'll probably be back soon)
2020-11-11 18:15:34 acdw don't know how anybody does anything esle but that
2020-11-11 18:15:47 kensanata Effectively, using different schemes is a bit like item types for Gopher: the client looks at the URL and already knows whether they can handle it.
2020-11-11 18:18:26 epoch can email be compressed?
2020-11-11 18:18:51 epoch oh. I think TLS might do compression itself anyway?
2020-11-11 18:19:00 epoch or maybe I'm remembering that wrong. >_>
2020-11-11 18:19:04 ericonr I mean, it can
2020-11-11 18:19:05 acdw kensanata: that's what i love about schemes
2020-11-11 18:19:15 ericonr but it's a security concern
2020-11-11 18:19:18 ericonr and afaik, deprecated
2020-11-11 18:19:39 ericonr http/3 is moving to a special compression scheme for headers + usual content compression
2020-11-11 18:19:59 ericonr or was it http/2 ? I don't even know anymore
2020-11-11 18:20:10 admicos isn't http/3 also doing udp and whatnot or was that something else
2020-11-11 18:20:15 admicos they reimplemented tcp or something like that
2020-11-11 18:20:30 boringcactus yeah, QUIC
2020-11-11 18:20:41 boringcactus it does userspace congestion control? iirc?
2020-11-11 18:20:46 acdw http/100
2020-11-11 18:20:49 acdw get on my level
2020-11-11 18:20:50 boringcactus .wait is it QUIC or SPDY
2020-11-11 18:20:51 kensanata haha
2020-11-11 18:20:51 admicos just fix your kernelspace
2020-11-11 18:21:00 epoch http/9001
2020-11-11 18:21:09 boringcactus google name your shit reasonably challenge
2020-11-11 18:21:17 epoch I think SPDY is what it was called while google had it
2020-11-11 18:21:28 admicos didn't one of them get renamed http/2
2020-11-11 18:21:34 boringcactus wasn't SPDY HTTP/2 actually
2020-11-11 18:21:47 admicos quic i assume is the fake-tcp one then
2020-11-11 18:21:48 kensanata acdw: The discussion of HTTP/2, QUIC and all that is part of what made sure I care for Gemini
2020-11-11 18:22:08 kensanata some numbers will be forever tainted... like 9001
2020-11-11 18:22:09 acdw lol boringcactus
2020-11-11 18:22:17 ericonr boringcactus: yeah
2020-11-11 18:22:21 ericonr quic is http 3
2020-11-11 18:22:23 acdw right!? yeah fuck http
2020-11-11 18:22:28 acdw gemini is my new best friend
2020-11-11 18:22:30 boringcactus but yeah admicos it's not a question of kernelspace, the TCP congestion control algorithm is defined by the TCP spec and sometimes it doesn't behave the way you want
2020-11-11 18:22:34 acdw oh dam i need to make a tshirt
2020-11-11 18:22:44 admicos oh it's a spec problem? that makes a little more sense
2020-11-11 18:22:50 boringcactus for certain values of "you" anyway
2020-11-11 18:22:51 admicos when you said userspace i thought about kernelspace
2020-11-11 18:22:55 boringcactus reasonable
2020-11-11 18:23:02 boringcactus that might've been the wrong term to use for it
2020-11-11 18:23:28 kensanata I sort of liked the basic idea of HTTP. I think some of the ideas are cool. But 1.1 is already so damn complicated with all the caching. Uuugh. You just know it was designed for high performance corporations.
2020-11-11 18:23:54 ericonr my stupid http fetcher just ignores those
2020-11-11 18:24:02 ericonr all it knows is 'Content-Length" :D
2020-11-11 18:24:06 kensanata Like, using the basic structure of lines with key: value pairs, I like that.
2020-11-11 18:24:23 kensanata But then again, I also liked RSS 3.0 :)
2020-11-11 18:24:33 kensanata http://www.aaronsw.com/2002/rss30
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2020-11-11 18:26:33 acdw kensanata: how do i upload an image to Phoebe?
2020-11-11 18:26:56 acdw ooh rss 3.0 looks good
2020-11-11 18:27:04 ★ acdw remembers the titan script
2020-11-11 18:27:06 kensanata acdw: Did you enable an image type?
2020-11-11 18:27:12 acdw uhhh yes?
2020-11-11 18:27:20 kensanata Then titan should be good to go.
2020-11-11 18:27:25 acdw i'm like, 95% sure
2020-11-11 18:27:29 acdw okay i'll check, thanks :)
2020-11-11 18:27:34 kensanata Heh. Let's see the error message! :D
2020-11-11 18:29:58 kensanata --wiki_mime_type=image/jpeg or something should do it (in case you're looking at your phoebe invocation)
2020-11-11 18:31:37 kensanata Oh, and if your file utility doesn't identify the MIME type of the file you're trying to upload, you can specify the mime type to use with --mime=image/jpeg as you call titan.
2020-11-11 18:31:39 acdw shit i don't have perl/modern on void
2020-11-11 18:31:54 acdw oh yeah i have --mime=image in phoebe's thing
2020-11-11 18:32:17 acdw well i'm runing cpan
2020-11-11 18:32:22 acdw we'll see i guess
2020-11-11 18:32:47 kensanata Is Void a Linux distro without Perl packages?
2020-11-11 18:33:01 acdw idk
2020-11-11 18:33:03 acdw no
2020-11-11 18:33:05 acdw it has perl
2020-11-11 18:33:10 acdw i just cpan'd and installed modern::perl
2020-11-11 18:33:12 acdw so we good
2020-11-11 18:33:17 acdw all this for a meme by the way
2020-11-11 18:33:18 kensanata Ah, cool :)
2020-11-11 18:33:26 kensanata Memes are important! :D
2020-11-11 18:33:26 acdw where's the images go?
2020-11-11 18:34:04 kensanata They end up in a separate folder. page/* is for pages and file/* is for uploaded files, meta/* is for file metadata (the MIME type, essentially)
2020-11-11 18:34:16 acdw file/ that's it, thanks :)
2020-11-11 18:34:34 ew0k You may have already moved way past the subject but regarding compression: the tcp and tls overhead is generally large in relation to the response body. Compression would gain very little bandwidth at the cost of complexity and cpu cycles
2020-11-11 18:34:34 acdw so i'd titan --url=titan://gem.acdw.net/file/meme.jpg --token=token?
2020-11-11 18:35:30 kensanata Uhhh. Let me test this. :)
2020-11-11 18:35:40 acdw insep> acdw: why do people need content-length
2020-11-11 18:35:44 acdw sorry insep
2020-11-11 18:35:53 acdw 59 The path /file/gemini.png;size=712872;mime=image/png;token=raggedy-andy is malformed
2020-11-11 18:35:58 acdw ^ got this error kensanata
2020-11-11 18:36:22 acdw shit i just gave yall my token
2020-11-11 18:36:24 acdw gotta change that
2020-11-11 18:36:34 ericonr oops
2020-11-11 18:36:41 acdw don't yall upload shit
2020-11-11 18:36:54 ericonr I don't even know what software is being used :P
2020-11-11 18:37:36 ew0k where gemini makes HUGES gains in bandwidth, cpu and simplicity is in serving less files compared to http. A geminispace capsule is generally *one* call, *one* response, and very small noise-to-information ratio in the markup
2020-11-11 18:37:56 acdw boom
2020-11-11 18:37:58 acdw secured
2020-11-11 18:38:43 insep ericonr: same
2020-11-11 18:38:52 acdw haha
2020-11-11 18:39:03 acdw kensanata's gemini wiki: https://alexschroeder.ch/cgit/phoebe/tree/README.md
2020-11-11 18:39:43 ericonr oh thank god
2020-11-11 18:39:51 helby has left #gemini
2020-11-11 18:39:53 ericonr I read wiki and was having wikimedia flashbacks already
2020-11-11 18:41:32 kensanata acdw: Hm, my server is rejecting the image I'm uploading and I don't know why.
2020-11-11 18:42:56 kensanata acdw: Ah, don't use "file/"
2020-11-11 18:43:13 kensanata acdw: titan --url=titan://localhost:1965/avatar.jpg --token=hello Pictures/Alex.jpg ⇒ 59 This wiki does not allow more than 100000 bytes per page (on my test server)
2020-11-11 18:43:21 kensanata I really should add an example.
2020-11-11 18:45:10 kensanata OK, gotta start cooking some late night dinner...
2020-11-11 18:45:24 kensanata 19:45 over here…
2020-11-11 18:47:34 acdw stepping out for a minute btw
2020-11-11 18:47:36 acdw oh okay ty
2020-11-11 18:47:51 acdw aw eff
2020-11-11 18:48:02 acdw stand by yall i'mma upload this dank meme and you'll see
2020-11-11 18:48:07 acdw also 1945, that's early for dinner lol
2020-11-11 18:48:15 acdw i usually eat around 2030 or 2100
2020-11-11 18:48:24 kensanata Hah, when I was younger....
2020-11-11 18:48:50 kensanata My wife works for the state and they are all early risers, and so I turned into one as well. Also aching bones.
2020-11-11 18:49:09 kensanata Can't wait to see the meme.
2020-11-11 18:50:06 ew0k acdw: I had lunch at 17:30, as always....
2020-11-11 18:50:16 ew0k Dinner! I meant dinner!
2020-11-11 18:50:54 alex11 what's a mix between lunch and dinner
2020-11-11 18:50:55 alex11 linner
2020-11-11 18:51:01 alex11 i will accept my nobel prize now
2020-11-11 18:54:03 acdw Oof aching bones
2020-11-11 18:54:12 acdw Yeah it's a spicy meme, be ready
2020-11-11 18:54:24 acdw Just don't go to bed for another.... Hour and a half
2020-11-11 18:54:41 acdw ew0k: no shame in lunch at 1730
2020-11-11 19:09:12 ew0k alex11: why not lunner?
2020-11-11 19:09:38 alex11 lupper
2020-11-11 19:10:36 ew0k Even better!
2020-11-11 19:10:57 ew0k lipper = lunch + dinner + suppee
2020-11-11 19:11:02 ew0k supper
2020-11-11 19:11:16 ew0k splelign si gdoo
2020-11-11 19:17:32 kensanata acdw: I ended up writing some docs while I wait for the potatoes: https://alexschroeder.ch/cgit/phoebe/about/#image-uploads
2020-11-11 19:19:50 nihilazo it seems like what was going to be my site generator has become a gemtext parser and soon HTML and gemtext renderers for that parsed gemtext structure
2020-11-11 19:20:30 nihilazo which will be split into their own library. So if anybody wants to do gemtext to html or gemtext to anything within a go program, there's probably going to be worse ways to do it? idk
2020-11-11 19:20:44 acdw Dope kensanata thanks! Also potatoes? Mmmmm
2020-11-11 19:20:53 acdw So good! How ya making em?
2020-11-11 19:22:01 kensanata acdw: Just in cooking water. They're blue ones: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blaue_St._Galler
2020-11-11 19:22:17 kensanata acdw: We're going to eat a lot of cheese with them... Got Racelette lined up.
2020-11-11 19:22:32 kensanata https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raclette
2020-11-11 19:23:06 kensanata Yikes, that second Wikipedia image has a lot of meat on it. We just eat cheese and potatoes. :)
2020-11-11 19:27:03 jcowan acdw: if you want ;-separated parameters, you either put them in the query (change the first ; to ?) or you escape the semicolons with %3B
2020-11-11 19:27:32 jcowan ew0k: I designed a RESTful mail protocol as a demonstration for a tutorial on REST I gave years ago (but didn't implement it)
2020-11-11 19:28:17 jcowan The trick is that mail servers have to POST notifications to other mail servers saying "Got mail for you".
2020-11-11 19:28:57 jcowan that way mail never leaves the sender, unless the receiver explicitly downloads a copy (for legal purposes, etc.)
2020-11-11 19:35:09 ew0k jcowan: exactly my thinking!
2020-11-11 19:35:38 jcowan I was only thinking about person-to-person mail in that preso
2020-11-11 19:36:05 jcowan mail sent to several people but not a formal mailing list should not be deletable by just one person
2020-11-11 19:36:25 jcowan yet it's not clear when to reclaim it either
2020-11-11 19:36:44 jcowan the whole problem of deletion / garbage collection is quite difficult
2020-11-11 19:37:03 ew0k Yup
2020-11-11 19:37:46 jcowan mailing lists with archives would want to make their own copies and send notifications to the list members and then reject deletions, but how is this different from spammers?
2020-11-11 19:37:48 ew0k but it can be solved with hardlinks; each receiver gets their own link to the message, and can delete that link
2020-11-11 19:38:11 jcowan Good point, didn't think of that
2020-11-11 19:38:32 ew0k Forwarding is harder though
2020-11-11 19:38:50 ew0k then you’d have to download it
2020-11-11 19:39:04 jcowan You could tell the server to do so with a POSt
2020-11-11 19:39:07 jcowan POST
2020-11-11 19:39:11 ew0k True
2020-11-11 19:39:19 acdw mmm blue potatoes
2020-11-11 19:39:40 ew0k although, I don’t want to lose messages I’ve received because the sending server goes down
2020-11-11 19:39:43 acdw jcowan: titan:// protocal is a bit different
2020-11-11 19:39:57 ew0k So I’d want to fetch and store copies
2020-11-11 19:40:14 jcowan acdw: You can't implement it using a standard URI parser, then
2020-11-11 19:40:17 jcowan that's annoying
2020-11-11 19:40:52 ew0k I thought the ; separator was part of the URI standard
2020-11-11 19:42:17 acdw kensanata: FINALLY gemini://gem.acdw.net:1965/file/gemini.png
2020-11-11 19:42:20 acdw meme
2020-11-11 19:42:28 acdw ew0k as far as i know it is
2020-11-11 19:43:14 acdw jcowan: ew0k: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3986#appendix-A
2020-11-11 19:43:47 acdw cf ^, ; is allowed as a subdelimiter in path
2020-11-11 19:43:59 insep acdw: i absolutely love the quality of that picture
2020-11-11 19:44:08 acdw :D
2020-11-11 19:46:04 acdw well i had to scale it down b/c phoebe wouldn't let me serve files bigger than 100,000 bytes
2020-11-11 19:46:08 ★ acdw looks pointedly
2020-11-11 19:46:25 acdw after i do dishes i'll patch phoebe and reupload the high-def one
2020-11-11 19:47:43 jcowan ew0k: That would probably be a client UI feature: archive this message
2020-11-11 19:47:56 jcowan on local disk, or Amazon S3, or what have hou
2020-11-11 19:47:57 jcowan you
2020-11-11 19:48:06 jcowan &@#{body}amp;*( MacBookPro keyboard
2020-11-11 19:48:36 acdw what have thou
2020-11-11 19:48:46 acdw have at thee
2020-11-11 19:52:09 jcowan what hast thou would be correct Early Modern English, but nobody used it like that until 1925 per the OED
2020-11-11 19:53:53 jcowan there is a lot of "what hast thou" in the King James Bible, but it is all ordinary questions: "And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground."
2020-11-11 19:58:21 jcowan ddevault: You could hard-code the content of favicon.txt into your server and send it out with 21 Please cache, except oops, too much hating on 21.
2020-11-11 19:59:01 jcowan Actually, that's really a decent use case for 21; I was only pushing 22 because the use cases for that are clear
2020-11-11 19:59:22 ew0k I love the favicon.txt idea, but... It breaks the idea that gemini browsers should only make calls that the user initiates
2020-11-11 20:01:04 ddevault why did I even bring it up
2020-11-11 20:01:12 ddevault obviously someone would latch onto it and try to make it actually happen
2020-11-11 20:06:24 acdw jcowan: nice
2020-11-11 20:06:49 acdw oh no more ML drama eh?
2020-11-11 20:07:11 jcowan Lagrange seems to assign favicons randomly
2020-11-11 20:08:43 nihilazo I feel like the ML is a mix of actual discussion and people who don't realise that the point of gemini is that we don't add features
2020-11-11 20:10:59 ew0k acdw: If the favicon idea has been on the ML it was before I joined it
2020-11-11 20:11:35 acdw lol nihilazo ture
2020-11-11 20:11:37 acdw true
2020-11-11 20:11:55 acdw ew0k: yes, michael lazar posted the spec he uses for portal.mozz.us
2020-11-11 20:11:57 ew0k nihilazo: definitely -- coming from one who started by joining and having opinions :D It took a few turns before my web-centric head was able to wrap around what gemini is
2020-11-11 20:12:28 nihilazo I came at gemini from a web-centric perspective too but I feel like I'm starting to move to the gemini way of thinking
2020-11-11 20:12:49 ew0k same here, but it took a bit of getting used to
2020-11-11 20:12:53 nihilazo I've actually found I prefer, for example, links on their own line over inline links, as a style thing as well as a technical thing. It makes document structure a lot clearer
2020-11-11 20:13:10 ew0k I *still* lament the lack of a standard way to POST, but I don't really think it belongs in the gemini protocol
2020-11-11 20:13:19 nihilazo I also hate writing CSS
2020-11-11 20:13:30 nihilazo so a protocol that doesn't require me too for things to look nice? already sold
2020-11-11 20:13:34 nihilazo s/too/to/
2020-11-11 20:13:38 ew0k hell yes... *really* hate CSS
2020-11-11 20:14:09 insep i like that i decide how i want to see people's content :)
2020-11-11 20:14:22 boringcactus ew0k did you see https://git.sr.ht/~boringcactus/gemini-authoring-example/tree/main/cgi-bin/write.cgi
2020-11-11 20:14:42 ew0k I'm pondering writing a gemlog post about caching, content length, compression and other optimizations in general... Would anyone want to read it?
2020-11-11 20:14:57 ew0k boringcactus: no, but I'm looking at it now! :D
2020-11-11 20:14:59 ew0k ty!
2020-11-11 20:15:04 acdw re: CSS, when I found this I was enlightened:https://jrl.ninja/etc/1/
2020-11-11 20:15:33 acdw oh btw the meme is big now: gemini://gem.acdw.net:1965/file/gemini.png
2020-11-11 20:15:39 acdw ^ kensanata
2020-11-11 20:15:58 insep also anyone have a suggestion on what server should i use when i just want to play around with gemtext and gemini locally and not spend time on configuration?
2020-11-11 20:16:35 nihilazo yeah, similarly for me with css when I discovered http://bettermotherfuckingwebsite.com/
2020-11-11 20:16:49 Sario acdw: excellent meme
2020-11-11 20:16:50 nihilazo which is a joke site, but I did actually use it as the base for the CSS on the HTML version of my capsule
2020-11-11 20:16:57 gast0n has quit (Connection closed)
2020-11-11 20:16:58 ew0k boringcactus: basically a line editor using status code 10?
2020-11-11 20:16:59 acdw lol thanks
2020-11-11 20:17:07 boringcactus essentially, yeah
2020-11-11 20:17:07 acdw nihilazo: yeah that's a good one too
2020-11-11 20:17:30 nihilazo also acdw are you on the fedi
2020-11-11 20:17:41 acdw i would actually love if there was a way for stylus or something to like, apply that style to pages without one
2020-11-11 20:17:43 nihilazo I just stole your meme and I want to credit you
2020-11-11 20:17:45 boringcactus ew0k gemini://boringcactus.com:6969
2020-11-11 20:17:48 acdw nihilazo: @acdw@writing.exchange
2020-11-11 20:17:49 acdw :D
2020-11-11 20:18:07 boringcactus hm
2020-11-11 20:18:08 acdw boringcactus: i am nervous about that port
2020-11-11 20:18:11 ▬▬▶ lukee has joined #gemini
2020-11-11 20:18:35 acdw aw no response
2020-11-11 20:18:55 lukee good evening cult-of-gemini followers!
2020-11-11 20:19:07 nihilazo evening
2020-11-11 20:19:07 acdw o/
2020-11-11 20:19:13 acdw how the heck are ya lukee
2020-11-11 20:19:23 insep nihilazo: nice
2020-11-11 20:19:29 lukee not bad thanks, apart from the divorce!
2020-11-11 20:19:32 boringcactus should be back up now
2020-11-11 20:19:50 nihilazo hmm, I don't have a client cert
2020-11-11 20:19:54 nihilazo does amfora not support them?
2020-11-11 20:20:03 boringcactus you have to make one manually outside the client
2020-11-11 20:20:07 boringcactus iirc
2020-11-11 20:20:18 jcowan Here's a favicon idea: If the first line of a gemtext document is a single character, treat it as the favicon for this site and use it whenever the user is on the site and there is no first-line favicon
2020-11-11 20:20:29 jcowan Servers can optionally supply a favicon
2020-11-11 20:20:45 ew0k uhm. Anyone knows how to create client certs in amfora? :P
2020-11-11 20:20:48 jcowan or leave it to authors
2020-11-11 20:21:13 boringcactus you have to make it externally and then set some config options
2020-11-11 20:21:23 boringcactus or use, like, Lagrange or Kristall or something
2020-11-11 20:21:26 nihilazo I think servers supplying a favicon would be the best way but I don't really see why they're something we need on gemini
2020-11-11 20:22:55 acdw oh no lukee !
2020-11-11 20:22:57 acdw that sucks
2020-11-11 20:23:27 acdw jcowan: obviously the solution is in the mime-type
2020-11-11 20:23:40 ★ jcowan chuckles
2020-11-11 20:23:53 acdw 20 text/gemini;favicon=bread
2020-11-11 20:23:57 acdw hehe
2020-11-11 20:24:00 acdw quick post it on the ML
2020-11-11 20:24:42 lukee acdw: yes, sorry that was a bit random to drop that in
2020-11-11 20:25:19 lukee sometimes you just have to say what is on your mind when someone asks!
2020-11-11 20:25:28 acdw no worries
2020-11-11 20:25:37 boringcactus 20 text/gemini;favicon=U+1F335 CACTUS
2020-11-11 20:25:41 acdw and i'm glad you're okay *other* than that
2020-11-11 20:25:44 acdw does suck tho
2020-11-11 20:25:45 jcowan Reasons for favicons: help figure out what's going on when you have 2000 tabs open, keeps the user somewhat oriented on the source of information.
2020-11-11 20:25:50 acdw boringcactus: taht's the one!
2020-11-11 20:25:51 acdw perfect
2020-11-11 20:26:04 boringcactus or 24 🌵 text/gemini
2020-11-11 20:26:07 acdw no wait, you don't need th U+, since it's *obviously* unicode
2020-11-11 20:26:11 acdw boringcactus: oh that one
2020-11-11 20:26:13 acdw yes
2020-11-11 20:26:18 lukee acdw: I managed to fix the conversation-fragment cgi
2020-11-11 20:26:20 acdw 20 text/gemini;favicon=1f335
2020-11-11 20:26:30 lukee gemini://gemini.marmaladefoo.com/cgi-bin/conversation-fragment.cgi?kirk=warp-speed%20mr%20sulu&sulu=I'm%20not%20sure%20she%20can%20take%20it&kirk=do%20it%20anyway
2020-11-11 20:26:31 acdw ooh?!! lemme at it lol
2020-11-11 20:26:40 ew0k lukee: sorry to hear about the divorce, but glad to hear that you're otherwise fine :)
2020-11-11 20:27:04 jcowan favicon=1F595 shoudl be sufficient
2020-11-11 20:27:11 acdw helll yesssss lukee
2020-11-11 20:27:13 acdw so dope
2020-11-11 20:27:16 nihilazo idea: writing a gemini client for my ebook reader
2020-11-11 20:27:22 ew0k boringcactus: I'll have to try it some day when I can be bothered to install another browser :P
2020-11-11 20:27:23 boringcactus lmao jcowan
2020-11-11 20:27:29 nihilazo problem: I have no idea how to do any more than very basic graphics on e-ink
2020-11-11 20:27:44 acdw but we want to cut down on bytes, so it should be f=1f595
2020-11-11 20:27:45 boringcactus oh well i'm not gonna keep it up forever bc i can't be fucked to set jetforce up as a daemon
2020-11-11 20:27:48 lukee thanks ew0k. the hard bit is over, but it takes a while for the emotional subsystem to catch up with the rational executive function
2020-11-11 20:27:49 acdw also base64 encode it
2020-11-11 20:28:02 boringcactus but it's just running that cgi script i linked earlier
2020-11-11 20:28:03 lukee acdw: yeah that would be good
2020-11-11 20:28:12 acdw oof yeah i know those feels. when my first gf dumped me i was in a rough way for awhile
2020-11-11 20:28:18 boringcactus so you can run it yourself with jetforce or any compatible cgi server
2020-11-11 20:28:31 ew0k boringcactus: I can try that cgi on my own :D
2020-11-11 20:28:33 ew0k thanks!
2020-11-11 20:28:49 acdw lukee: what'd be good?
2020-11-11 20:29:10 lukee erm I thought your remark about base64 was for me, but maybe it wasnt!
2020-11-11 20:29:43 lukee it would offer a minimal layer or opaqueness to the script authoring in the URL
2020-11-11 20:30:02 acdw oh lol
2020-11-11 20:30:08 acdw that's a good idea tho!
2020-11-11 20:30:18 acdw i was base64-ing the unicode point of the emoji
2020-11-11 20:30:29 acdw but yeah, base64 all the things :)
2020-11-11 20:34:07 lukee generalising it a bit - have a progressive series of gemini 10 responses to build up the script.
2020-11-11 20:34:42 khuxkm still trying to figure out what's wrong with my CGI script
2020-11-11 20:34:44 lukee could even do script writing ping pong with another author taking turns on the same URL as it extends
2020-11-11 20:34:55 boringcactus yeah, for things like wiki editing you could imagine pre-filling it with existing text
2020-11-11 20:35:14 boringcactus it would have to hard wrap at N characters to not overflow the URL, but
2020-11-11 20:35:17 boringcactus that could be solved
2020-11-11 20:36:03 lukee boringcactus: yes it would be limited to 1024 bytes. Long than a tweet though :_
2020-11-11 20:36:10 ComputerTech has left #gemini ("Leaving")
2020-11-11 20:36:13 lukee :_ -> :)
2020-11-11 20:36:13 ew0k There is a problem with long lines, though
2020-11-11 20:36:20 boringcactus 1024 minus the domain and path, but yeah
2020-11-11 20:37:15 lukee it does raise an actual gemini protocol question. If you have a response 10 on a URL that already has a parameter, how should the client handle it?
2020-11-11 20:37:16 ew0k A line in a gemtext document is usually a full paragraph, which can easily extend to a 1000 or more characters. When that's url encoded it'll hardly fit the 1024 size limit
2020-11-11 20:37:33 boringcactus usually it replaces the parameter lukee
2020-11-11 20:37:40 boringcactus and i think that's reasonable
2020-11-11 20:37:41 lukee according to what?
2020-11-11 20:37:47 boringcactus client behavior that i've seen
2020-11-11 20:37:48 lukee the spec is silent on this
2020-11-11 20:37:48 ▬▬▶ ComputerTech has joined #gemini
2020-11-11 20:37:59 khuxkm https://gist.github.com/53e89a8a2c9c97448c59ef634ee26b41
2020-11-11 20:38:04 khuxkm this is the script
2020-11-11 20:38:06 boringcactus ew0k yeah i'd have to get creative to not explode on unbounded line lengths
2020-11-11 20:38:20 lukee what about this url: handler?foo=bar&colour=green
2020-11-11 20:38:28 ew0k lukee: I asked that some time ago too. Like, if gemini://foo.bar?baz returns 10, and the user fills in "nana" the new call will be gemini://foo.bar?nana
2020-11-11 20:38:48 acdw sombody wrote a sed-style interface to a gemini site
2020-11-11 20:39:01 ew0k if you want several parameters the user has to fill that in manually
2020-11-11 20:39:26 ew0k khuxkm: what's the problem with it?
2020-11-11 20:39:55 khuxkm it runs fine in my terminal but it fails to return any response when called via gemini request
2020-11-11 20:40:14 ew0k huh. Could it be your server?
2020-11-11 20:40:25 khuxkm idk
2020-11-11 20:40:35 khuxkm tilde.team uses gemserv
2020-11-11 20:40:51 lukee ew0k and if gemini://foo.bar?baz returns 10 should the client pre-populate the text field with baz to be overwritten by the user?
2020-11-11 20:41:25 ew0k lukee: that's a good question... I don't think it generally does
2020-11-11 20:41:44 lukee it sort of feels like a refinement step
2020-11-11 20:41:57 ew0k well, I don't know of any case where a call with a query string would return 10, even
2020-11-11 20:42:31 lukee well what about a series of progressive refinements in a search engine?
2020-11-11 20:42:55 ew0k *shrug* I haven't seen it implemented
2020-11-11 20:43:19 lukee khuxkm: it feels there is too much going on in your script to debug it - have you tried something much more miminal?
2020-11-11 20:44:00 lukee there could be many things going wrong - does the equivalent python "hello world" cgi work on that server?
2020-11-11 20:44:07 ew0k khuxkm: so... without having any real clue, I wonder if it finds the import. Could you try pasting utils.py into the other file? I don't know how python handles local imports
2020-11-11 20:44:25 khuxkm no, the import works
2020-11-11 20:44:34 khuxkm otherwise the other pages would fail
2020-11-11 20:45:15 khuxkm lukee: it's actually less complicated than it seems
2020-11-11 20:45:19 lukee ew0k: probably the interactive aspects of gemini are so limited, theres not much need *yet* to offer a query refinement mechanism
2020-11-11 20:45:36 ew0k lukee: true
2020-11-11 20:46:14 khuxkm basically, it parses the query string, makes a URL from work ID and format, and then requests the content l
2020-11-11 20:46:17 boringcactus a sufficiently fancy client could probably let you go Back to a 1x response and populate what you already typed
2020-11-11 20:46:18 ew0k khuxkm: can you link it to me?
2020-11-11 20:47:19 khuxkm gemini://tilde.team/~khuxkm/ao3proxy/work.gmi?work=24486652
2020-11-11 20:47:31 khuxkm that's the URL I'm using to test it
2020-11-11 20:47:55 lukee boringcactus: yes I think it should try to do something helpful. But there is a wide variety of URL syntax being used when there is more than one parameter, and its not at all standardised (unlike say http get URL params)
2020-11-11 20:48:02 khuxkm should return a 20 response with an application/epub+zip mimetype ot similar
2020-11-11 20:48:29 lukee for example is it param1:value or param1=value or some other application specific syntax
2020-11-11 20:49:01 acdw i think the URL RFC prolly has a suggestion on that
2020-11-11 20:49:42 epoch has quit (Ping timeout: 120 seconds)
2020-11-11 20:49:57 lukee maybe, but I think it is something the URL RFC doesnt care about
2020-11-11 20:50:28 lukee the web cgi params is just a convention
2020-11-11 20:50:59 acdw ah
2020-11-11 20:51:15 acdw well i think ?param=value¶m=value¶m=value is good
2020-11-11 20:51:17 lukee what is it - x-www-form-urlencoded
2020-11-11 20:51:19 acdw so folow th convention
2020-11-11 20:51:27 acdw i think that's a thing for POST ?
2020-11-11 20:51:31 lukee but that is what the web does, so its evil!
2020-11-11 20:51:35 ddevault there are no parameters like this
2020-11-11 20:51:36 acdw lol
2020-11-11 20:51:40 ddevault the query string is just interpreted as is
2020-11-11 20:51:47 ddevault if there's a query string in a 10 response, it's overwritten with the user input
2020-11-11 20:51:55 acdw right, there's only one query string
2020-11-11 20:52:09 lukee yes but there is often an implicit substructure (see GUS for example)
2020-11-11 20:52:13 ddevault you can stick more structure into it if you want, but it wouldn't work with the 10 algorithm
2020-11-11 20:52:20 ddevault nothing like forms is possible
2020-11-11 20:52:56 lukee not quite true, but I agree, not exactly
2020-11-11 20:53:05 acdw a page *could* be like, 10 name? -> save name -> 10 addres? -> save address -> etc
2020-11-11 20:53:10 acdw but that is not good
2020-11-11 20:53:24 lukee its sort of all gemini can implement
2020-11-11 20:53:28 boringcactus possible but only through ugly hacks
2020-11-11 20:53:39 ★ kensanata is back, stuffed with potatoes and cheese.
2020-11-11 20:53:56 acdw kensanata!!!
2020-11-11 20:53:59 acdw did you see da meme?
2020-11-11 20:54:13 lukee I think a hack is just a feature you don't like (beyond of course whether it meets the spec)
2020-11-11 20:54:27 ddevault 10 vipe </dev/null | base64
2020-11-11 20:54:49 acdw | sh
2020-11-11 20:55:00 kensanata acdw: I did!
2020-11-11 20:55:15 kensanata acdw: Did you figure out how to increase the upload limit?
2020-11-11 20:55:19 acdw I did!!!
2020-11-11 20:55:21 acdw yay
2020-11-11 20:55:22 kensanata Phew!
2020-11-11 20:55:25 acdw good job us
2020-11-11 20:55:45 kensanata Yeah, well... before you mentioned it, the option was simply undocumented, so... yay you!
2020-11-11 20:56:04 acdw lolol
2020-11-11 20:56:06 acdw awesome :)
2020-11-11 20:56:30 acdw this weekend i'm going to play around more with phoebe to see what else i can do with it
2020-11-11 20:58:25 kensanata Sounds good to me!
2020-11-11 20:58:28 acdw :D
2020-11-11 20:59:52 makeworld gemini://when.willgemini.support/?escaping
2020-11-11 20:59:56 makeworld Ahaha it's online now
2020-11-11 21:00:04 raiz has quit (quit: EOF)
2020-11-11 21:00:27 ddevault gemini://when.willgemini.support/?giant%20sex%20robots
2020-11-11 21:00:52 alex11 lol
2020-11-11 21:02:12 acdw nicceeee
2020-11-11 21:02:25 makeworld Damn it
2020-11-11 21:02:37 acdw perfect
2020-11-11 21:02:43 acdw (second) best meme on gemini
2020-11-11 21:04:13 lukee gemini://when.willgemini.support/?a%20consensus%20of%20what%20gemini%20is%2
2020-11-11 21:04:37 acdw lolol
2020-11-11 21:04:49 makeworld Wait isn't this known?
2020-11-11 21:04:56 makeworld Or are you referring to gemtext vs gemini lol
2020-11-11 21:05:11 lukee huh truncated, should be gemini://when.willgemini.support/?a%20consensus%20of%20what%20gemini%20is%20for
2020-11-11 21:06:06 acdw ha
2020-11-11 21:06:12 acdw was wodnering about that %2
2020-11-11 21:06:13 makeworld Ah ok
2020-11-11 21:06:18 makeworld Yeah me %2 lol
2020-11-11 21:06:19 ddevault gemini://when.willgemini.support/?Caesar%20Augustus%20as%20the%20rightful%20leader%20of%20the%20Roman%20Republic
2020-11-11 21:06:23 acdw lolol
2020-11-11 21:06:29 acdw oh em ef gee
2020-11-11 21:06:32 lukee haha
2020-11-11 21:07:20 acdw gemini://when.willgemini.support/?Caesar%20Milano%20as%20the%20rightful%20leader%20of%20all%20the%20dogs
2020-11-11 21:07:21 acdw more like
2020-11-11 21:08:23 lukee gemini://when.willgemini.support/?my%20candidacy%20for%20gemini%20BDFL
2020-11-11 21:08:48 ddevault petition to replace the term BDFL with BAMF going forward
2020-11-11 21:08:58 lukee BAMF?
2020-11-11 21:09:03 ddevault badass motherfucker
2020-11-11 21:09:22 lukee we can all be one of those
2020-11-11 21:09:52 kevinsan lukee: who are you trying to kid, ddevault would out-BAMF you any day of the week
2020-11-11 21:10:11 lukee I didnt realise it was a zero sum competition?
2020-11-11 21:10:18 kevinsan have you seen his issue trackers?
2020-11-11 21:10:26 acdw hell yes
2020-11-11 21:10:28 acdw petition signed
2020-11-11 21:10:39 acdw hmmm idk
2020-11-11 21:10:42 acdw i'm pretty bamfy
2020-11-11 21:10:50 lukee you are too acdw
2020-11-11 21:11:17 acdw hehe
2020-11-11 21:11:25 acdw we're like the diumvirate
2020-11-11 21:11:39 kevinsan i'll be honest, i'm a conflict-avoiding wimp :)
2020-11-11 21:11:51 ▬▬▶ epoch has joined #gemini
2020-11-11 21:12:00 acdw aw me too tbh
2020-11-11 21:12:05 kevinsan i'd just say yes to everyone, and then pull the plug on my wifi
2020-11-11 21:12:09 ddevault weakly interacting massive particle?
2020-11-11 21:12:11 boringcactus you can have a multi-BAMF model
2020-11-11 21:12:12 ddevault fits the description
2020-11-11 21:12:16 boringcactus but not a multi-BDFL model
2020-11-11 21:12:23 kevinsan i'm a neutrino!
2020-11-11 21:12:54 acdw aww
2020-11-11 21:13:05 acdw you pass thru billions of times a secnd and are barely noticed?
2020-11-11 21:13:16 kevinsan yup, sounds about right
2020-11-11 21:13:37 acdw aw
2020-11-11 21:13:37 kevinsan they built kamiokande just to confirm my existence
2020-11-11 21:13:40 acdw well *i* notice you
2020-11-11 21:13:42 acdw :P
2020-11-11 21:13:53 kensanata Heh
2020-11-11 21:14:25 kevinsan i'll be honest again - i have had people literally laugh in my face when i (sincerely) claimed i was shy.
2020-11-11 21:14:56 kensanata I'm skimming the Gopher world... ended up reading the reports of a person in an asylum. The smolnet is bigger than one might thing. Perhaps it's more like the fognet. You can't see very far.
2020-11-11 21:15:02 lukee we are all surely multi-faceted kevinsan
2020-11-11 21:15:12 kevinsan which means i could be a BAMF, but not even realise it. arrogant to a fault. i'd be your worst nightmare :)
2020-11-11 21:16:23 kevinsan kensanata: were the reports written by the asulum resident?
2020-11-11 21:18:32 acdw that sucks kevinsan
2020-11-11 21:18:37 acdw like, why would you do that
2020-11-11 21:18:58 kevinsan do what? i haven't done it YET?!!
2020-11-11 21:19:24 acdw wut
2020-11-11 21:19:35 acdw why would someone laff at you for being shy i mean
2020-11-11 21:20:39 kensanata kevinsan: yes
2020-11-11 21:20:40 kevinsan oh, that's way back - they see me as anything but shy. how i present != how i feel, it seems
2020-11-11 21:21:04 acdw oh i got ya
2020-11-11 21:21:28 kensanata Is there a feed for tanelorn.city? All I can find is a feed for the announcements
2020-11-11 21:22:18 kevinsan i got a ton of work to do :(
2020-11-11 21:22:34 kevinsan so, i'll probably be on IRC quite a lot :)
2020-11-11 21:22:50 ▬▬▶ lukee_ has joined #gemini
2020-11-11 21:23:21 acdw haha sammemmememe
2020-11-11 21:25:47 ▬▬▶ unleet has joined #gemini
2020-11-11 21:26:06 lukee has quit (Ping timeout: 120 seconds)
2020-11-11 21:26:24 kensanata I recently discovered that work has opened their firewall a bit again, so from the office laptop I can go on to Freenode but not on Tilde Chat
2020-11-11 21:26:41 ★ kensanata gets up and pulls tomorrow's bread out of the oven
2020-11-11 21:27:14 acdw ooh
2020-11-11 21:27:19 acdw oh yes bread
2020-11-11 21:27:21 acdw what kind kensanata ?
2020-11-11 21:29:04 kensanata Uhhhh... the regular kind? I don't know how you'd translate the stuff into English. Sourdough? With … 150g starter, 200g regular flour that is 10% spelt (?) and 100g … uh, brown flour or whatever you'd call it? Integral?
2020-11-11 21:29:20 acdw whole wheat probs
2020-11-11 21:29:26 acdw like, the whole kernel?
2020-11-11 21:29:33 acdw spelt is a thing yes :)
2020-11-11 21:29:39 kensanata Heh.
2020-11-11 21:29:44 kensanata Whole wheat, yeah
2020-11-11 21:29:47 acdw lol @ the regular kind tho. you're right for.... about 99% of human history
2020-11-11 21:29:55 kensanata https://alexschroeder.ch/wiki/2020-10-18_Making_Bread has some pictures of what it usually looks like
2020-11-11 21:30:14 acdw i bet it's better than our whole wehat --- a lot of companies separate the germ from the hull then add it back for whole wheat flour
2020-11-11 21:30:20 acdw so it's not *really* whole wheat
2020-11-11 21:30:35 kensanata Hm. I actually don't know how they produce it.
2020-11-11 21:31:02 acdw that is some good bread
2020-11-11 21:31:09 acdw you ever think of joining us on breadpunk?
2020-11-11 21:31:22 acdw if you haven't----on problem with all the bread names is i forget who pepole are really
2020-11-11 21:31:24 kensanata I did!
2020-11-11 21:31:28 acdw lol
2020-11-11 21:31:31 acdw awesome
2020-11-11 21:31:37 acdw like i said
2020-11-11 21:31:55 tane acdw, is the bread related name constraint still valid then? :)
2020-11-11 21:31:55 kensanata I guess I'll just cheer from afar, haha.
2020-11-11 21:32:05 acdw haha yse
2020-11-11 21:32:10 kensanata I don't post enough bread content.
2020-11-11 21:32:16 acdw that's okay! I don't either
2020-11-11 21:32:20 kensanata Haha
2020-11-11 21:32:28 kensanata I wonder what my bread name would be.
2020-11-11 21:32:47 acdw wait i thought you joined us?
2020-11-11 21:33:00 tane xD
2020-11-11 21:33:04 tane now that's overview
2020-11-11 21:33:31 kensanata I should probably cally myself Spelt.
2020-11-11 21:34:14 acdw oooh
2020-11-11 21:34:27 kensanata acdw: Ah, no. Sorry. I wanted to say: yes, I did think of joining you on breadpunk. Too literally minded, bloody programmers.
2020-11-11 21:34:29 acdw yeah that's not taken
2020-11-11 21:34:36 acdw lolol
2020-11-11 21:34:37 acdw no worries
2020-11-11 21:34:45 acdw can you get me a dozen eggs and milk later ?
2020-11-11 21:34:47 acdw :P
2020-11-11 21:35:03 kensanata Heh
2020-11-11 21:35:40 kensanata Now I keep thinking about this lullaby: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backe,_backe_Kuchen
2020-11-11 21:36:00 kensanata "Bake a cake, bake a cake, The baker has called. Whoever wants to bake a good cake, must have seven things, Eggs and lard, Sugar and salt, Milk and flour. Saffron makes the cake yellow Push it into the oven."
2020-11-11 21:36:11 kensanata Sounds like the most terrible cake ever.
2020-11-11 21:36:54 @tomasino oh, i think i have a video of that tune: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5KxZ5Lc_YA
2020-11-11 21:37:09 @tomasino oh, alex, i had a question for you the other day
2020-11-11 21:37:13 @tomasino what was it now...
2020-11-11 21:37:14 ddevault that cake just sounds like cake
2020-11-11 21:37:14 @tomasino hmmmm
2020-11-11 21:37:18 acdw that sounds like patty cake kensanata
2020-11-11 21:37:24 ddevault saffron is a bit weird but a small amount wouldn't taste weird
2020-11-11 21:37:31 acdw sounds like pound cake honestly
2020-11-11 21:37:47 kensanata I keep thinking about the lard in that cake.
2020-11-11 21:37:49 ddevault have you ever made a cake, kensanata
2020-11-11 21:37:51 @tomasino mmm, lard
2020-11-11 21:37:52 acdw lard is just fat
2020-11-11 21:37:56 ddevault ^
2020-11-11 21:37:57 acdw tasty, death fat
2020-11-11 21:38:03 kensanata Ah, it's not bacon?
2020-11-11 21:38:03 ddevault basically equivalent to putting in butter
2020-11-11 21:38:09 acdw i think it's actually pretty neutral tasting, even more so than butter
2020-11-11 21:38:14 ddevault it is, yeah
2020-11-11 21:38:18 ddevault but butter tastes good :3
2020-11-11 21:38:21 kensanata Heh
2020-11-11 21:38:26 @tomasino not bacon, no... just fat. you can use different types of animal fat for the lard too
2020-11-11 21:38:32 acdw omg of course that song is from lazy town tomasino
2020-11-11 21:38:34 @tomasino but... bacon in chocolate chip cookies is surprisingly awesome
2020-11-11 21:38:43 kensanata aaaaaargh
2020-11-11 21:38:56 acdw so how many days of national morning did yall have when the lazy guy died?
2020-11-11 21:39:04 acdw also lol i was NOT expecting lil jon
2020-11-11 21:39:04 @tomasino too soon. still not over
2020-11-11 21:39:10 acdw aw
2020-11-11 21:39:12 acdw sorry
2020-11-11 21:39:13 kensanata I was a vegetarian for twenty years and I don't want the taste death fat all over my caaaaaaake
2020-11-11 21:39:16 ddevault who died?
2020-11-11 21:39:17 acdw did you know him?
2020-11-11 21:39:24 acdw the guy who was Robbie Rotten on LazyTown
2020-11-11 21:39:29 ddevault oh :/
2020-11-11 21:39:34 @tomasino the villain
2020-11-11 21:39:34 acdw I ask b/c everyone in Iceland knows each other
2020-11-11 21:39:34 @tomasino cancer
2020-11-11 21:39:43 acdw really bad cancer too, right?
2020-11-11 21:39:43 ddevault everyone in iceland is actually the same person
2020-11-11 21:39:46 @tomasino i didn't get to meet him
2020-11-11 21:39:47 acdw wha
2020-11-11 21:39:48 ddevault his name is john
2020-11-11 21:39:49 @tomasino yeah, really bad
2020-11-11 21:39:51 acdw they're all tomasino
2020-11-11 21:39:52 ddevault john iceland
2020-11-11 21:39:58 ★ tomasino waves
2020-11-11 21:40:09 ★ tomasino checks his logs to remember what he wanted to ask kensanata
2020-11-11 21:40:14 acdw yeah it was actually really sad and then .. it was like, a meme? so that was weird
2020-11-11 21:40:24 kensanata The unasked questions are the hardest to answer.
2020-11-11 21:41:20 unleet has quit (quit: https://web.tilde.chat - thelounge)
2020-11-11 21:41:51 kensanata More english terminology: what do you call the metal thing here: https://alexschroeder.ch/gallery/2020-bread/#15
2020-11-11 21:42:04 ddevault dohickey
2020-11-11 21:42:20 ddevault doohickey*
2020-11-11 21:42:21 @tomasino nope, no luck. can't find it
2020-11-11 21:42:24 acdw okay (1) that's my favorite picture
2020-11-11 21:42:26 kensanata 37 Moby Thesaurus words for "dohickey"... wow, haha
2020-11-11 21:42:29 acdw and (2) a bread loaf pan
2020-11-11 21:42:32 acdw or loaf pan
2020-11-11 21:42:37 @tomasino loaf pan, yeah
2020-11-11 21:42:37 acdw b/c it holds a loaf
2020-11-11 21:42:44 acdw as opposed to pie pan or sauce pan
2020-11-11 21:42:48 kensanata acdw: So a pan doesn't have to be round and flat, like a... a pan?
2020-11-11 21:42:53 @tomasino nope
2020-11-11 21:43:13 @tomasino https://www.google.com/search?channel=fs&q=loaf+pan
2020-11-11 21:43:25 acdw nope
2020-11-11 21:43:29 kensanata The round flat thing is a "frying pan" and everything else is what I'd translate as a "pot"...
2020-11-11 21:43:34 acdw a pan is pretty much anything you get hot to cook things
2020-11-11 21:43:43 kensanata Ah, excellent.
2020-11-11 21:43:45 @tomasino there's not a lot of logic to it
2020-11-11 21:43:49 acdw yeah, that's also a pot
2020-11-11 21:43:58 acdw tho sometimes people only call the ones w/o handles pots
2020-11-11 21:44:14 ddevault cookware names are not particularly well standardized
2020-11-11 21:44:22 acdw I think "pots and pans" is less to include everytihing and more to just ... gesture at everying
2020-11-11 21:44:24 kensanata Yeah, but you know how it is with foreign languages. It always gets tricky when you get to the actual specifics, when there is no more wriggle room
2020-11-11 21:44:43 ddevault I wouldn't call the round flat thing a frying pan
2020-11-11 21:44:46 ddevault needs a lip
2020-11-11 21:44:48 ddevault I'd call it a doohickey
2020-11-11 21:44:52 @tomasino pots are almost always circular while pans are more often rectangular in the us, with some notable exceptions like pizza
2020-11-11 21:45:01 ddevault ...rectangular? what?
2020-11-11 21:45:06 ddevault oh, like sheet pans, maybe
2020-11-11 21:45:13 @tomasino yep
2020-11-11 21:45:21 ddevault bakeware != cookware
2020-11-11 21:45:30 @tomasino it's a mess of terminology
2020-11-11 21:46:16 lukee_ what we need is ....
2020-11-11 21:46:21 kensanata Heh. The big rectangular things that go into the oven with cookies on them are just "baking sheet metal" if you translate it literally from German, I think
2020-11-11 21:46:26 lukee_ an RFC standard to sort it out :)
2020-11-11 21:47:22 acdw telling ya, pan is just metal cook thing
2020-11-11 21:47:33 acdw kensanata: what's the german?
2020-11-11 21:47:36 acdw that's hilaroius
2020-11-11 21:47:41 acdw OH they are called baking sheets sometimes
2020-11-11 21:47:57 tane backblech is the word I guess
2020-11-11 21:48:07 acdw huh neat
2020-11-11 21:48:28 kensanata Backblech
2020-11-11 21:48:35 acdw awesoem! let's call it that
2020-11-11 21:49:26 kensanata So I went through the sites in https://cmpwn.com/@sir/105127171878166117 and I wasn't too impressed. People need to write stuff, not install servers!
2020-11-11 21:49:46 ddevault maybe give them more than a week and a half to do it
2020-11-11 21:49:47 kensanata Then again, it took me a while until I understood tomasino's wisdom. He said that right from start.
2020-11-11 21:49:52 ddevault check out CAPCOM if you want already developed sites
2020-11-11 21:50:01 ddevault gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/capcom/
2020-11-11 21:50:03 kensanata I know, I'm looking for new sites.
2020-11-11 21:50:40 @tomasino :D!
2020-11-11 21:50:42 @tomasino i got wisdoms
2020-11-11 21:52:19 @tomasino content++
2020-11-11 21:52:39 kensanata Yeah. It took me a while, but now I see that you're right.
2020-11-11 21:53:00 lukee_ kensanata: another place to hunt for new sites is gemini://gus.guru/newest-hosts
2020-11-11 21:53:37 kevinsan i think the word everyone is looking for is 'tin' a 'loaf tin'
2020-11-11 21:53:40 ★ lukee_ is slightly sad the list is only 10 long
2020-11-11 21:54:37 kevinsan lukee_: i think natpen limits that list to 10, no?
2020-11-11 21:54:55 kensanata lukee_: Ah, good point. I should add that page.
2020-11-11 21:54:59 @tomasino gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/users/hundredrabbits looks interesting
2020-11-11 21:55:31 lukee_ yes, which is generally fine, but there was a big backlog from the end of sept, but most got masked by the last 10 entries when they got crawled by GUS
2020-11-11 21:57:33 lukee_ some fun polemic stuff on e-worm.club appeared recently
2020-11-11 21:59:58 @tomasino i appreciate communities that publish into gemini (like cosmic). I wish there was more _ONLY_ gemini stuff coming on board. Not HTML sites proxied, not dual published, just gemini
2020-11-11 22:00:07 lukee_ about how all the alternatives to the classical social media just ends up aping the same UI and makes the same assumptions about likes/votes to determine currency
2020-11-11 22:00:23 @tomasino even on your thread, ddevault, people were already talking about adding http versions to their stuff
2020-11-11 22:00:59 ddevault what thread?
2020-11-11 22:01:12 @tomasino the fedi post & replies
2020-11-11 22:01:15 ddevault ah
2020-11-11 22:01:17 lukee_ tomasino: I personally dont see any problem with dual posting. Let them taste the gateway drug, then we get them hooked on discussion about content escaping and header fields
2020-11-11 22:01:54 @tomasino it's better than nothing, but if stuff is just available on the web there's not a lot of reason to get in the habit of opening up a gemini browser
2020-11-11 22:02:21 lukee_ I dont see it like that, I think we need to provide a smooth on-ramp for some
2020-11-11 22:02:22 ddevault my HN portal has been working well enough that I'm using it instead of the web version
2020-11-11 22:02:31 ddevault it's a lot better to have a consistent reading experience for every article
2020-11-11 22:02:49 ddevault I think that there's some value in things being available on both for reasons like that
2020-11-11 22:02:50 ddevault it helps gemini too
2020-11-11 22:03:32 @tomasino it helps you not have to leave to get at stuff you like, but it doesn't have the same power to draw in folks
2020-11-11 22:03:45 @tomasino better than nothing, definitely
2020-11-11 22:03:46 lukee_ do we want the gemini vibe to be "we are a cool exclusionary club"
2020-11-11 22:03:54 ddevault there was a github article today that requires javascript to read, but works great with web.sh over gemini
2020-11-11 22:04:05 @tomasino i want gemini to have a vibe that's more than "here's the text only version of my website"
2020-11-11 22:04:06 lukee_ (I'm exaggerating for effect clearly)
2020-11-11 22:04:35 tane tomasino, just takes time, it seems like there's enough "exclusive content"
2020-11-11 22:04:40 lukee_ I'd like the vibe to be "here's my gemini content, but the web folk can see it too"
2020-11-11 22:05:30 kensanata tomasino: I've noticed that for my own site, writing new posts (and browsing) is more comfortable using Elpher than using Firefox, so I often use it now.
2020-11-11 22:05:43 @tomasino that's a good sign
2020-11-11 22:05:53 lukee_ actually personally I'm fine mostly publishing just to gemini for my own stuff, but I like the smaller audience
2020-11-11 22:06:01 @tomasino maybe i'll be wrong and the experience alone will be enough
2020-11-11 22:06:15 kensanata I do confess that I felt a bit sad when I added page editing via the web to transjovian.org
2020-11-11 22:06:23 ddevault emacs people lmao
2020-11-11 22:06:23 lukee_ gemini is so pure and kind on the eyes
2020-11-11 22:07:02 kevinsan there's a big hurdle of conditioning to overcome - we've had a decade of professional broadcasters (e.g. influencers) masquerading as regular folks and making it look like they're great at everything
2020-11-11 22:07:36 lukee_ lets invite them to join then :)
2020-11-11 22:07:46 @tomasino i think i'll watch a superman and finally write up part 4 of this vintagetv series tonight
2020-11-11 22:07:54 lukee_ they can bring their 10000 follower with them :)
2020-11-11 22:08:06 @tomasino i have it stubbed, but nanowrimo has had my writing all focused on cosmic
2020-11-11 22:08:25 @tomasino speaking of which, are you all reading along to the cosmic stories via gemini?
2020-11-11 22:08:30 @tomasino i have no logs to check
2020-11-11 22:08:36 nihilazo I'm not, but I should!
2020-11-11 22:08:40 lukee_ not my bag really
2020-11-11 22:08:47 @tomasino NOOOOO
2020-11-11 22:08:49 kensanata My ship is abandoned, drifting in space, silent...
2020-11-11 22:08:56 nihilazo I'm not sure what I want the vibe of gemini to be, tbh
2020-11-11 22:09:01 khuxkm I'm still trying to figure out when I should come back with excelsior
2020-11-11 22:09:03 @tomasino content!
2020-11-11 22:09:09 nihilazo so far it seems comfy through being small
2020-11-11 22:09:11 nihilazo but very tech-focused
2020-11-11 22:09:20 khuxkm I need to come up with a planet that they get onto and make their new home
2020-11-11 22:09:29 nihilazo we need more non-tech gemini content (which I'm trying to create myself, but I don't currently have a feed or anything)
2020-11-11 22:09:57 @tomasino stage a renaissance in food blogging. fight the nonsense that is web-recipes with their 10 pages of backstory and 3,000 ads before the actual recipe
2020-11-11 22:10:01 lukee_ nihilazo: write about what you do away from the computer?
2020-11-11 22:10:07 ▬▬▶ xmn has joined #gemini
2020-11-11 22:10:14 nihilazo yeah, that's my plan
2020-11-11 22:10:17 nihilazo I do have some recipes on there
2020-11-11 22:10:28 kevinsan i've seen a reassuring amount of non-tech content on CAPCOM. but tech is naturally a dominating subject because of the early adopters
2020-11-11 22:10:29 nihilazo but they're just taken from websites, whenever I cook something new I add it
2020-11-11 22:10:37 nihilazo along with some notes on if it was any good
2020-11-11 22:10:37 lukee_ we all need more of a life AFK (esp this strange year)
2020-11-11 22:10:41 nihilazo yeah true
2020-11-11 22:10:46 nihilazo I Want to start writing about cosplay for gemini
2020-11-11 22:10:49 @tomasino tech content is cool as long as it's not all about gemini itself
2020-11-11 22:10:59 nihilazo and become...the only cosplay writer in gemspace prolly
2020-11-11 22:11:08 @tomasino cosplay would be great to write about
2020-11-11 22:11:14 lukee_ but tomasino - thats the one topic we can all engage with?!
2020-11-11 22:11:18 khuxkm I mean, I'm trying to make fanfiction available over gemini
2020-11-11 22:11:40 nihilazo the only problem with writing about cosplay is images
2020-11-11 22:11:41 @tomasino you know what i'm really surprised i haven't seen yet (looking at kensanata)... play by post RPGs in gemspace
2020-11-11 22:11:41 khuxkm most of the fanfiction I write is available at gemini://tilde.team/~khuxkm/writing/
2020-11-11 22:11:54 kevinsan nihilazo: i'd be interested in reading that, but i know nothing about it so it would have to start at the beginning!
2020-11-11 22:11:57 nihilazo although I haven't found just linking to them to be a problem
2020-11-11 22:12:01 nihilazo w/ images
2020-11-11 22:12:07 lukee_ it gets us up in the morning, we wake up to track the latest episode of the soap opera in the ML
2020-11-11 22:12:08 tane has quit (quit: Leaving)
2020-11-11 22:12:30 nihilazo I want to try developing some weird things that use cgi for stuff
2020-11-11 22:12:38 nihilazo I also am now set on the idea of building a gemini client for the kobo
2020-11-11 22:12:44 lukee_ the weirder the better imo
2020-11-11 22:12:47 khuxkm speaking of the soap opera that is the ML, let me check my email
2020-11-11 22:12:48 @tomasino who's gonna recommend content-length in the meta tag today? hmm....
2020-11-11 22:12:58 nihilazo but idk if I could write a gemini client for kobo
2020-11-11 22:13:00 khuxkm last time I ignored my email we had a big blowout convo
2020-11-11 22:13:06 boringcactus content-length in the status code
2020-11-11 22:13:09 boringcactus 20.4390483
2020-11-11 22:13:15 @tomasino hehe
2020-11-11 22:13:23 @tomasino content length as a service
2020-11-11 22:13:28 kevinsan boringcactus must be stopped at all costs
2020-11-11 22:13:43 ddevault 20 text/gemini;bytesie-wytsiess=4096
2020-11-11 22:13:57 boringcactus 69 Server Fucky Wucky
2020-11-11 22:14:01 nihilazo how long until we have JSON APIs over the gemini protocol
2020-11-11 22:14:18 nihilazo I should resurrect fizzbuzz-as-a-service for gemini
2020-11-11 22:14:21 lukee_ no reason not to, you just need a client that does it
2020-11-11 22:14:21 kevinsan nihilazo: there's your first weird cgi program
2020-11-11 22:14:23 @tomasino well now you said it, it'll happen
2020-11-11 22:14:38 ddevault better idea
2020-11-11 22:14:43 nihilazo the problem with weird cgi programs is that I don't think I have hosting for them
2020-11-11 22:14:51 ddevault the length of every page must be exactly equal to the sum of the letters in its URL, as ASCII
2020-11-11 22:14:53 nihilazo unless breadpunk would give me access to dynamic gemini content
2020-11-11 22:15:26 boringcactus s/sum/product/ for even more fun
2020-11-11 22:15:34 kevinsan ddevault: that would limit the file-size and make content-length largely irrelevant
2020-11-11 22:15:38 ddevault set up yggdrasil and publish them from localhost, nihilazo
2020-11-11 22:15:46 kevinsan there'd be nothing else to suggest on the ML
2020-11-11 22:16:10 @tomasino gematria as checksum?
2020-11-11 22:16:37 ddevault let's encode the content length in the least significant bits of the server's IPv6 address
2020-11-11 22:16:39 nihilazo yggdrasil? ddevault
2020-11-11 22:16:50 ddevault nihilazo: https://duckduckgo.com
2020-11-11 22:17:10 ddevault https://yggdrasil-network.github.io/
2020-11-11 22:17:20 kevinsan ddevault: is it possible to listen on a partial address in IPv6?
2020-11-11 22:17:26 ddevault yes
2020-11-11 22:17:35 nihilazo interesting
2020-11-11 22:17:43 ddevault IPv4 too
2020-11-11 22:17:45 kevinsan well, gotta use those addresses somehow, otherwise they go to waste
2020-11-11 22:17:47 lukee_ how does that work over NAT?
2020-11-11 22:17:51 ddevault IPv6 does not use NAT
2020-11-11 22:18:01 lukee_ no, on IPv4
2020-11-11 22:18:06 boringcactus broke: TCP over UDP; woke: IPv6 over IPv6
2020-11-11 22:18:22 ddevault I don't think NAT really has anything to do with it
2020-11-11 22:18:33 lukee_ I'm not entirely serious
2020-11-11 22:18:36 ddevault your computer can read and respond to any packets which are routed to it regardless of IP
2020-11-11 22:18:55 makeworld nihilazo: Setup a server in your basement like me! Install Linux on any old hardware you have or buy a raspberry pi
2020-11-11 22:18:55 ddevault so long as you're on the gateway for your subnet, you can take as many addresses as you want
2020-11-11 22:18:56 ★ tomasino 's eyes glaze over
2020-11-11 22:18:59 lukee_ I thought this was a joke thread anyway
2020-11-11 22:19:07 nihilazo my parents wouldn't let me run a server in the house
2020-11-11 22:19:08 makeworld Yggdrasil is pretty awesome
2020-11-11 22:19:12 nihilazo also my ISP is awful
2020-11-11 22:19:15 makeworld Aw that sucks
2020-11-11 22:19:18 ddevault yggdrasil is very cool
2020-11-11 22:19:19 @tomasino you'll poke your eye out, nihilazo
2020-11-11 22:19:43 nihilazo while I'm here, fuck BT
2020-11-11 22:19:48 @tomasino you'll shoot your eye out feels wrong. you'll finger your eye out, maybe? hmm
2020-11-11 22:19:51 nihilazo our devices can't even connect to each other on LAN
2020-11-11 22:20:07 ddevault bluetooth and LAN are not words which go together
2020-11-11 22:20:11 boringcactus i remember looking at cjdns for juuuuust long enough to realize there wasn't actually much to do with it. haven't looked at yggdrasil that long yet but it looks similarly a neat party trick
2020-11-11 22:20:18 boringcactus and BT is a british ISP ddevault, iirc
2020-11-11 22:20:21 nihilazo if I have a device on LAN serving something, and something else wants to connect to it on the LAN
2020-11-11 22:20:22 ddevault oh
2020-11-11 22:20:24 nihilazo it doesn't work
2020-11-11 22:20:31 ddevault your ISP also has nothing to do with your LAN
2020-11-11 22:20:34 nihilazo because BT's routers have had broken LAN forever and they never fixed it
2020-11-11 22:20:36 lukee_ nihilazo - there are online rpi providers that support gemini
2020-11-11 22:20:44 ddevault what kind of moron uses ISP-provided routers
2020-11-11 22:20:48 khuxkm so apparently my Python bug report was a duplicate of a bug that's sat dormant since around 2017
2020-11-11 22:20:52 nihilazo and my parents are very much the "we don't need a router we already have one" types
2020-11-11 22:20:56 ★ kensanata is trying to build LaGrange for the third or fourth time...
2020-11-11 22:21:06 khuxkm and no action was taken on it, so I'm currently looking into writing it since clearly it was something that someone wanted
2020-11-11 22:22:14 nihilazo I do want to get a router that actually works
2020-11-11 22:22:40 nihilazo but I can't afford one and my parents won't get one because they're, somehow, happy with the half broken ISP provided one
2020-11-11 22:23:13 @tomasino makes sense for a non-techy person
2020-11-11 22:23:15 @tomasino why bother
2020-11-11 22:24:51 ddevault basic networking illiteracy is disturbingly common, even among technical people
2020-11-11 22:25:00 ddevault hell, even myself
2020-11-11 22:25:01 boringcactus the one summer i had an apartment to myself, i stuck with the ISP router because it was fine and i didn't have "buy a router separately just on principle" money
2020-11-11 22:25:08 nihilazo tbh we used ISP provided things and it's been like, OK
2020-11-11 22:25:11 nihilazo but this one is actually broken
2020-11-11 22:25:16 nihilazo can't even play minecraft on LAN
2020-11-11 22:25:19 boringcactus rip
2020-11-11 22:25:33 nihilazo and we've confirmed that if we plug in our old router it works but the old one doesn't have new wifi so everybody complains it's slow
2020-11-11 22:25:43 nihilazo even though it actually like, works as a router
2020-11-11 22:25:57 nihilazo maybe I could set up the old router as the router and the ISP-provided router as an AP
2020-11-11 22:26:05 kevinsan well, I use my ISP provided router, because it's just passable. they used to provide DrayTeks, but now FritzBox
2020-11-11 22:26:07 boringcactus might it be a config thing in the router? iirc some routers will let you, e.g., partition off wifi and ethernet into separate vlans
2020-11-11 22:26:18 nihilazo nah, it's not a config thing, it's a bug
2020-11-11 22:26:20 boringcactus ahh
2020-11-11 22:26:27 nihilazo we've tried everything in the very limited config it allows you to do
2020-11-11 22:26:38 khuxkm this makes no sense
2020-11-11 22:26:46 kensanata LaGrange looks super nice. But I can't seem to be use it without a mouse. Nooo!
2020-11-11 22:26:57 khuxkm so apparently gemserv responds to there not being a query string by... just not setting QUERY_STRING at all?
2020-11-11 22:27:24 kevinsan nihilazo: is this a known problem with your router, because I know people with BT routers who do not have that problem.
2020-11-11 22:27:27 khuxkm so that's probably why my one thing was breaking
2020-11-11 22:27:44 lukee_ huh - sounds annoying
2020-11-11 22:27:47 nihilazo kevinsan: apparently it's a problem for every BT router model from homehub onwards
2020-11-11 22:27:55 nihilazo and yes, it seems to be a known issue among owners of these routers
2020-11-11 22:28:01 nihilazo but BT have ignored it
2020-11-11 22:28:14 nihilazo but only for some of them, for some reason
2020-11-11 22:28:45 kevinsan nihilazo: buy an older one from eBay? they often sell for pennies
2020-11-11 22:29:08 khuxkm okay so fixing that fixed the issue of it giving a 42 when you didn't supply a query
2020-11-11 22:29:20 khuxkm but the issue still remains that gemserv seems to hate CGI scripts serving binary files
2020-11-11 22:29:24 kensanata LaGrange has a preference setting called UI scale factor. Oh Yesss! This I like.
2020-11-11 22:32:03 kensanata And with that, time for bed.
2020-11-11 22:32:31 wangofett has quit (quit: gonna go try some rust)
2020-11-11 22:32:42 kensanata has quit (The TLS connection was non-properly terminated.)
2020-11-11 22:33:02 nihilazo I didn't really get on with lagrange
2020-11-11 22:33:30 nihilazo I really do want to build a gemini browser for kobo although I doubt I will use it for most of my browsing
2020-11-11 22:33:33 kevinsan khuxkm: i just tried and yup, i get the same as you trying to send e.g. a jpeg
2020-11-11 22:33:48 acdw nihilazo: that is a great idea
2020-11-11 22:33:53 acdw do you like the kobo in general?
2020-11-11 22:33:55 acdw been thining about tit
2020-11-11 22:33:57 acdw it
2020-11-11 22:33:58 khuxkm umm... ummm....
2020-11-11 22:34:00 khuxkm I don't write rust
2020-11-11 22:34:13 khuxkm https://git.sr.ht/~int80h/gemserv/tree/master/src/cgi.rs#L146 this is supposed to send the output of the command as bytes, right?
2020-11-11 22:34:18 nihilazo acdw: I do like the kobo, although I have an old one
2020-11-11 22:34:19 nihilazo aura hd
2020-11-11 22:34:46 nihilazo the stock firmware is garbage but you can fake a login to not have to make an account, and install a package that adds an extra menu with 3rd party apps to it
2020-11-11 22:34:57 khuxkm nihilazo: if I can actually get gemserv to serve the EPUB then maybe your kobo gemini reader could download the EPUB and tell the reader to read it?
2020-11-11 22:35:01 khuxkm thoughts
2020-11-11 22:35:10 nihilazo maybe, although not sure
2020-11-11 22:35:25 nihilazo it could certainly download the epub into the reader's library
2020-11-11 22:35:28 nihilazo for koreader
2020-11-11 22:35:35 nihilazo not sure for nickel (the stock reader app)
2020-11-11 22:36:05 acdw nihilazo: nice to know
2020-11-11 22:36:05 khuxkm what does kobo use under the hood?
2020-11-11 22:36:11 acdw oh no way
2020-11-11 22:36:11 nihilazo acdw: basically my thoughts on the kobo is I would recommend a kobo if you are willing to install koreader to it
2020-11-11 22:36:18 nihilazo otherwise it's trash because the stock software is trash
2020-11-11 22:36:21 lukee_ good night all 💤
2020-11-11 22:36:24 acdw i've heard as much, yes
2020-11-11 22:36:26 acdw o/ lukee_
2020-11-11 22:36:31 lukee_ has quit (quit: Leaving)
2020-11-11 22:36:34 nihilazo although installing koreader is as easy as connecting it to a PC and running a scrpit
2020-11-11 22:36:37 nihilazo s/scripit/script
2020-11-11 22:36:48 acdw yeah, i think if i do buy one it'll be kobo
2020-11-11 22:36:50 acdw an ereader that is
2020-11-11 22:36:56 acdw unless i get to make my Dream E-Reader
2020-11-11 22:36:59 nihilazo khuxkm: linux actually
2020-11-11 22:37:19 nihilazo although it's a bit unusual in a few ways, it is a linux device, and there is a freely available toolchain and stuff
2020-11-11 22:37:41 nihilazo there's actually an official toolchain even though installing your own software isn't officially supported, which is odd
2020-11-11 22:38:21 nihilazo I would say in general whatever you get, I haven't had much experience with others, but a proper e-reader is a very good buy
2020-11-11 22:38:39 nihilazo it is so much better than reading on a PC/phone/tablet that it's an entirely different experience
2020-11-11 22:38:44 acdw yeh i want one
2020-11-11 22:38:48 acdw just cheap
2020-11-11 22:38:50 nihilazo I want to get one that has a bigger display than my current aura hd
2020-11-11 22:39:04 nihilazo there's a new kobo one that has an 8 inch display and I would be tempted if it was cheaper
2020-11-11 22:39:30 ★ acdw looks at kobos
2020-11-11 22:39:32 acdw kobi?
2020-11-11 22:39:35 acdw kobora?
2020-11-11 22:39:38 acdw anyway GEMINI
2020-11-11 22:39:38 nihilazo I think it's kobos
2020-11-11 22:39:40 acdw :P
2020-11-11 22:39:45 nihilazo they're cheap second hand
2020-11-11 22:39:52 khuxkm I was gonna say, this is the gemini channel rights
2020-11-11 22:39:53 acdw oh doope
2020-11-11 22:39:55 khuxkm s/s$//
2020-11-11 22:39:56 acdw oh shit you're not lying
2020-11-11 22:40:00 nihilazo I think my aura hd was £60
2020-11-11 22:40:05 makeworld I browse Gemini on my Kobo!
2020-11-11 22:40:06 acdw ha rights
2020-11-11 22:40:09 makeworld Using the portal though
2020-11-11 22:40:11 nihilazo anyway yeah I'm gonna move kobo talk to dm
2020-11-11 22:40:15 nihilazo yeah the portal works in the kobo browser
2020-11-11 22:40:18 nihilazo but where's the fun in that
2020-11-11 22:40:21 makeworld No look I brought it back
2020-11-11 22:40:23 khuxkm ALRIGHT, so my CGI script is borked, even though it works in the terminal
2020-11-11 22:40:25 acdw KOBOO
2020-11-11 22:40:36 acdw oof khuxkm , still
2020-11-11 22:40:46 khuxkm yeah
2020-11-11 22:40:51 makeworld Wait what script?
2020-11-11 22:41:02 khuxkm ew0k helped me figure out the reason for the one crash but the other's still not giving out
2020-11-11 22:41:08 acdw the one khuxkm 's been trying to write
2020-11-11 22:41:08 khuxkm one sec
2020-11-11 22:41:28 khuxkm well I already wrote it for the web, so I'm porting it to gemini because why not
2020-11-11 22:41:37 boringcactus picked up a used Kindle a while back and i've only used it for one book so far but it was way better than a phone or computer would've been for that
2020-11-11 22:41:46 boringcactus wonder if the Pine64 folks would want to make an e-reader
2020-11-11 22:41:51 khuxkm makeworld: https://gist.github.com/MineRobber9000/53e89a8a2c9c97448c59ef634ee26b41#file-work-gmi
2020-11-11 22:42:21 makeworld Oh Python, nice
2020-11-11 22:42:23 makeworld Let me look
2020-11-11 22:42:38 khuxkm before you ask, 1) line 5 shouldn't assume QUERY_STRING is there, and it has been fixed, 2) gemini.start_response assumes a status code of 20 if not given one, and 3) supplying format=html works
2020-11-11 22:42:43 boringcactus oh khuxkm https://git.sr.ht/~int80h/gemserv/tree/master/src/cgi.rs#L140 tries to decode the output as a UTF-8 string
2020-11-11 22:43:02 khuxkm ...what
2020-11-11 22:43:06 khuxkm why the hell does it do that
2020-11-11 22:43:13 makeworld Ohh this is your cursed AO3 portal
2020-11-11 22:43:14 makeworld Lol
2020-11-11 22:43:37 boringcactus it assumes the CGI script will be producing text, presumably
2020-11-11 22:43:37 makeworld Wait why would you not want UTF-8, the superior encoding?
2020-11-11 22:43:42 makeworld Oh rip
2020-11-11 22:43:43 ericonr there's going to be an AO3 portal to gemini?
2020-11-11 22:43:46 khuxkm because I'm sending a binary file over the wire
2020-11-11 22:43:52 makeworld Oof
2020-11-11 22:44:08 makeworld Time to use a different server or patch that one
2020-11-11 22:44:15 khuxkm ericonr: there already is; besides, you know, the work downloading part
2020-11-11 22:44:26 khuxkm you can list works in a tag and (undocumentedly) by a user
2020-11-11 22:44:34 boringcactus yeah it literally doesn't need to do that, because it only ever uses the String by getting back the bytes
2020-11-11 22:44:37 makeworld They tell int80h is deployed so you won't be getting upstream fixes any time soon
2020-11-11 22:44:47 makeworld *tell me
2020-11-11 22:44:54 khuxkm yep
2020-11-11 22:45:33 makeworld Just switch to Jetforce or whatever the kids use these days
2020-11-11 22:45:34 khuxkm catch me driving to oklahoma to yell at int80h in person :P
2020-11-11 22:45:35 ericonr khuxkm: neat :)
2020-11-11 22:45:46 khuxkm the problem is I'm on tilde.team and therefore am not in control
2020-11-11 22:45:46 makeworld He's deployed... to Oklahoma?
2020-11-11 22:45:53 makeworld Oh oof
2020-11-11 22:46:00 makeworld Time to talk to the sysadmins I guess
2020-11-11 22:46:00 khuxkm >I ship out on 20201006 which is only a few days away. My basic training and job training together consists of 26 weeks. Both will be at Ft. Sill which is in Lawton Oklahoma.
2020-11-11 22:46:07 makeworld Oh hm
2020-11-11 22:46:18 khuxkm i AM a sysadmin on tilde.team, but fixing this will require me to learn how to Rust
2020-11-11 22:46:31 @ben does jetforce have userdirs and cgi?
2020-11-11 22:46:38 boringcactus i can throw a patch together for you khuxkm
2020-11-11 22:46:57 ericonr good boringcactus
2020-11-11 22:47:04 khuxkm boringcactus: that would be extremely nice of you
2020-11-11 22:47:08 ericonr I was going to cobble something together
2020-11-11 22:47:23 ericonr but boringcactus seems to actually know what they are doing
2020-11-11 22:47:39 khuxkm and we could submit it for int80h to merge upstream when possible
2020-11-11 22:51:33 makeworld ben: CGI yes, userdirs I'm not sure? It would be trivial to write an "application server" that does that though
2020-11-11 22:52:59 boringcactus https://f.boringcactus.com/0001-don-t-round-trip-CGI-response-through-UTF-8.patch khuxkm here you go
2020-11-11 22:53:03 boringcactus idk how easy that is to apply
2020-11-11 22:53:30 khuxkm should be decently easy, I already have the gemserv source cloned
2020-11-11 22:53:40 boringcactus yeah then i think? piping it into git am should work
2020-11-11 22:54:06 boringcactus and then cargo build --release, copy target/release/gemserv to wherever it needs to be (although test it first)
2020-11-11 22:54:48 ericonr boringcactus: your name made me think of River Song :P
2020-11-11 22:54:57 boringcactus ^w^
2020-11-11 22:56:15 @ben khuxkm: do you want me to apply that
2020-11-11 22:56:27 nihilazo has quit (quit: WeeChat 2.9)
2020-11-11 22:56:41 khuxkm I'm gonna try and test it first
2020-11-11 22:56:45 @ben ok
2020-11-11 22:56:52 @ben if it looks good i can deploy it
2020-11-11 22:56:54 @ben just holler
2020-11-11 22:56:55 khuxkm it's still building >:P
2020-11-11 22:57:20 @ben ah yeah that'll take a couple years
2020-11-11 22:57:43 kevinsan boringcactus: thanks got the gemserv patch, you're a star!
2020-11-11 22:58:29 khuxkm I would have built it in-place at /usr/local/src/gemserv but we run gemserv from where its built and if it breaks I'd rather not have to have that problem :P
2020-11-11 22:58:42 khuxkm so I'll build it on my local copy of the code, test it, and then let you know
2020-11-11 22:58:42 @ben ok
2020-11-11 22:59:58 xmn has quit (quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2020-11-11 23:00:05 ▬▬▶ xmn has joined #gemini
2020-11-11 23:00:05 boringcactus just emailed it to int80h
2020-11-11 23:00:21 ericonr ben: why would you say that, rust builds soooo quickly :P
2020-11-11 23:01:34 @ben lmao
2020-11-11 23:01:37 @ben that's funny
2020-11-11 23:07:19 boringcactus https://lists.sr.ht/~int80h/public-inbox/patches/14926 just in case somebody needs a more stable URL to that gemserv patch
2020-11-11 23:07:47 jcowan I've figured out a nice easy to implement Dioscuri service: a like-dislike engine. You send it 'like <so and so>' or 'dislike <so and so>' in plain text, and if you send it 'report' it will come back with 'Abraham Lincoln: 10 likes, 5 dislikes' and so on line by line.
2020-11-11 23:08:00 kevinsan thanks boringcactus, i just patched, compiled and tested - jpeg showing via cgi. thanks!
2020-11-11 23:08:06 boringcactus yw! glad it works
2020-11-11 23:11:17 ddevault jcowan: we have an IRC bot which notices when people say "thing++" or "thing--" and increments/decrements its number, and prints out the current value
2020-11-11 23:11:38 @tomasino ddevault++
2020-11-11 23:11:51 jcowan Sure. I'm not looking to displace that, just to provide a demo of what Dioscuri can do and how easily it does it.
2020-11-11 23:12:03 ddevault also, you can do that with gemini
2020-11-11 23:12:11 jcowan Also true
2020-11-11 23:12:40 jcowan Another idea I came up with is a file classifier: you ship it a file, it sends you back a MIME-type. YOu can't do that in Gemini.
2020-11-11 23:13:04 ddevault libmagic as a service
2020-11-11 23:19:16 khuxkm can confirm
2020-11-11 23:20:03 khuxkm ben: kevinsan and I can both confirm that the patch works as advertised
2020-11-11 23:20:57 khuxkm so I just sudo up, go into /usr/local/src/gemserv, and apply the patch/build?
2020-11-11 23:24:32 khuxkm also I opened up TIC-80 with an intent to spec out that download animation I wanted a client to use and then I never actually did it
2020-11-11 23:26:17 khuxkm >Oops,
2020-11-11 23:26:18 khuxkm opengameart.org
2020-11-11 23:26:18 khuxkm is not available because it is categorized as games
2020-11-11 23:26:21 khuxkm woops
2020-11-11 23:26:27 khuxkm let's try that again
2020-11-11 23:26:28 khuxkm >Oops, opengameart.org is not available because it is categorized as games
2020-11-11 23:26:31 khuxkm yes that is the point
2020-11-11 23:27:09 khuxkm have I mentioned that i hate how locked down the school chromebooks are
2020-11-11 23:27:53 kevinsan i hate google having anything to do with schools
2020-11-11 23:28:02 kevinsan creepy as f*ck
2020-11-11 23:28:05 khuxkm I'll do it
2020-11-11 23:28:57 khuxkm kevinsan: well I'm fine with google
2020-11-11 23:29:09 khuxkm it's more of a complaint towards my school's IT department
2020-11-11 23:29:23 khuxkm like, why does the web filtering need to be always-on
2020-11-11 23:29:41 khuxkm I'm at home at 7 on a day off, why the hell can't I look at video game stuff
2020-11-11 23:29:42 kevinsan yeah, at least IT dept is merely incompetent
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2020-11-11 23:38:47 khuxkm ddevault: https://git.sr.ht/~sircmpwn/gmni/tree/master/src/tofu.c so I'm confused; according to OpenSSL docs, a return value of 0 from the cert_verify_callback signifies a verification failure
2020-11-11 23:39:04 ddevault man, hell if I know
2020-11-11 23:39:09 ddevault this shit is really badly documented
2020-11-11 23:39:24 ddevault I had to read the OpenSSL code to grok anything
2020-11-11 23:39:27 khuxkm >callback should return 1 to indicate verification success and 0 to indicate verification failure. If SSL_VERIFY_PEER is set and callback returns 0, the handshake will fail.
2020-11-11 23:39:37 khuxkm maybe you aren't setting SSL_VERIFY_PEER?
2020-11-11 23:39:47 ddevault ah, that's probably it
2020-11-11 23:39:55 ddevault or maybe it, I dunno
2020-11-11 23:39:58 ddevault OpenSSL sucks
2020-11-11 23:40:24 khuxkm in any case I'm just looking to write this CPython patch so I can worry about figuring it out in Python
2020-11-11 23:40:50 ddevault well, you're going to have a miserable time
2020-11-11 23:40:52 ddevault best of luck
2020-11-11 23:41:36 khuxkm well, my bug got closed as a duplicate, and the bug it "duplicates" has sat with fuck all being done to it for 3 years
2020-11-11 23:41:45 khuxkm guess if you want something done you do it yourself
2020-11-11 23:41:54 ddevault aye
2020-11-11 23:46:23 acdw shit are we pirates now?
2020-11-11 23:46:28 ★ acdw missed the memo
2020-11-11 23:46:30 acdw ahoy
2020-11-11 23:47:53 khuxkm ahoy me matey
2020-11-11 23:47:58 khuxkm i already be wanting to walk the plank
2020-11-11 23:48:47 @tomasino arrr
2020-11-11 23:49:07 khuxkm like, what... what?
2020-11-11 23:49:19 khuxkm what am I supposed to do with a X509_STORE_CTX
2020-11-11 23:49:24 khuxkm how do I pass that into Python?
2020-11-11 23:49:32 acdw yaarrrrr
2020-11-11 23:49:40 acdw oh that's cursed tho
2020-11-11 23:49:47 kevinsan khuxkm: if SSL_VERIFY_PEER is set, then a self-signed certificate would typically fail. so that logic all makes sense
2020-11-11 23:49:59 acdw why's it storing context? for that matter, why is it x509?
2020-11-11 23:50:14 khuxkm Just say "fuck it" and cast the X509_STORE_CTX to PyObject *?
2020-11-11 23:50:21 acdw yes
2020-11-11 23:50:24 acdw always fuck it
2020-11-11 23:50:36 khuxkm I mean I'm already half-assing it though
2020-11-11 23:50:49 acdw haha
2020-11-11 23:50:54 kevinsan that's called being a software developer
2020-11-11 23:51:02 acdw you know how assed bollux is? there's a reason it's called bollux
2020-11-11 23:51:08 khuxkm literally just copied the code from _servername_callback and am currently trying to make it work in the context of Python
2020-11-11 23:51:18 khuxkm s/Python/cert_verify_callback/
2020-11-11 23:57:59 khuxkm shoot me with a water gun emoji
2020-11-11 23:58:04 khuxkm whyyyy
2020-11-11 23:58:18 khuxkm i mean i'm fully aware i brought this on myself but whyyyyyy
2020-11-11 23:58:25 acdw oh no
2020-11-11 23:58:29 acdw are you writing a server? or client?
2020-11-12 00:00:13 khuxkm I'm fixing bpo-31242, which has had fuck all done about it other than Christian Heimes setting its stage to needs patch
2020-11-12 00:00:31 khuxkm and that was, like, 3 years ago
2020-11-12 00:00:46 khuxkm I only know about it because my bug report was closed for being a duplicate of it
2020-11-12 00:01:31 khuxkm https://bugs.python.org/issue31242
2020-11-12 00:02:53 acdw oh no
2020-11-12 00:02:58 acdw i don't even know what that ios
2020-11-12 00:03:16 acdw ah, read the issue
2020-11-12 00:06:06 khuxkm of course, the set_servername_callback it refers to is now SSLContext.sni_callback
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2020-11-12 00:22:49 khuxkm you know what
2020-11-12 00:22:50 khuxkm no
2020-11-12 00:23:11 khuxkm if the person who has declared themself as someone to bug for something hasn't done the thing, I sure as hell am not going to do the thing
2020-11-12 00:25:20 acdw yeah!
2020-11-12 00:25:32 acdw good job khuxkm
2020-11-12 00:25:35 acdw stand up for yourself!
2020-11-12 00:26:32 khuxkm actually at this point it's sunk cost fallacy, so I'm gonna quarter-ass it and submit the patch
2020-11-12 00:27:02 khuxkm if Christian "your bug is a duplicate of this bug I abandoned two years ago" Heimes wants to change something in the patch though he can do it himself
2020-11-12 00:29:38 khuxkm actually I'm gonna triple flip flop and just not do it
2020-11-12 00:29:39 khuxkm fuck this
2020-11-12 00:29:50 khuxkm SSL was a mistake
2020-11-12 00:35:58 ddevault on the subject of plan 9
2020-11-12 00:36:00 ddevault https://l.sr.ht/a4sT.mp4
2020-11-12 00:41:31 khuxkm okay so now I'm good and confused, and reading SSL code has confuzzled me even more
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2020-11-12 00:43:06 khuxkm so SSL_CTX_set_verify's verify_callback parameter is a callback that's called by OpenSSL when verifying a cert, while the cert_verify_callback (set from SSL_CTX_cert_verify_callback) is in charge of verifying the entire chain?
2020-11-12 00:47:44 khuxkm wait, how does jetforce get client certs
2020-11-12 00:47:46 khuxkm now i'm lost
2020-11-12 00:48:16 khuxkm oh, it uses twisted
2020-11-12 00:48:43 khuxkm ...am I seriously going to have to learn twisted to be able to support client certs in my gemini server
2020-11-12 00:50:19 khuxkm i am genuinely lost now
2020-11-12 00:51:04 acdw lol ddevault
2020-11-12 00:51:12 acdw oh god khuxkm
2020-11-12 00:51:14 acdw switch languages
2020-11-12 00:51:16 acdw it's not worth it
2020-11-12 00:52:19 khuxkm so twisted uses PyOpenSSL, and has a CertificateOptions object that can implement verify_callback and the others
2020-11-12 00:53:07 khuxkm but jetforce has to subclass it so that client certs pass into Python code
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2020-11-12 00:54:58 acdw oh no
2020-11-12 00:57:55 xfnw twisted--
2020-11-12 00:58:39 khuxkm yet I don't see where the verify_callback function it implements is getting called?
2020-11-12 00:58:40 acdw what is twisted?
2020-11-12 00:58:45 acdw ssl library?
2020-11-12 00:58:46 khuxkm https://github.com/twisted/twisted
2020-11-12 00:58:51 acdw I just think "don't get it twisted"
2020-11-12 00:58:53 khuxkm it implements a lot of things
2020-11-12 00:59:10 acdw oh it looks complicated lol
2020-11-12 00:59:13 acdw which makes sense
2020-11-12 01:03:21 xfnw its a weirdo internet stuff library for python that nobody knows how to use
2020-11-12 01:05:11 khuxkm okay so to answer my unspoken question, yes, you can actually implement something that shoves client certs through using just verify_callback
2020-11-12 01:05:27 khuxkm but then you have to verify client certs inside your own code
2020-11-12 01:07:54 acdw of
2020-11-12 01:07:56 acdw oof
2020-11-12 01:13:56 ddevault is there a gemini client for plan 9 that people like
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2020-11-12 01:29:00 kayw i've only seen gemnine by ft, but I don't know of any others https://git.sr.ht/~ft/gemnine
2020-11-12 01:33:55 acdw me on opening my email: Oh ther's only 4 ML posts
2020-11-12 01:33:57 acdw Oh
2020-11-12 01:33:59 acdw OH GOD
2020-11-12 01:34:12 kayw uh oh
2020-11-12 01:34:22 acdw bunches
2020-11-12 01:38:12 @ben khuxkm: yeah
2020-11-12 01:38:14 @ben did you do it?
2020-11-12 01:38:26 @ben note that there are changes you'll have to stash in config.toml
2020-11-12 01:38:33 @ben and just systemctl restart gemserv
2020-11-12 02:00:18 khuxkm yeah I did ti
2020-11-12 02:00:20 khuxkm s/ti/it/
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2020-11-12 03:14:43 khuxkm how should I suggest a filename for a download?
2020-11-12 03:15:04 khuxkm multipart/mixed with a Content-Disposition header?
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2020-11-12 03:37:45 login yes, Content-Disposition with attachment; filename="file name here"
2020-11-12 03:40:15 khuxkm but that feels like cheating
2020-11-12 03:40:23 khuxkm i mean it IS cheating
2020-11-12 03:40:27 khuxkm but still
2020-11-12 03:50:54 bie khuxkm: what do you mean suggest a filename?
2020-11-12 03:53:47 khuxkm I mean, when you go to download an EPUB from my AO3 proxy amfora saves it as "work.gmi" and I want to know what the expected way is to say "actually could you save it as X please?"
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2020-11-12 04:19:06 epoch you might be able to do a rewrite so that the query string passed to work.gmi is in what would get thought of as the filename?
2020-11-12 04:19:37 epoch or do something like... PATH_TRANSLATED
2020-11-12 04:19:50 epoch and PATH_INFO
2020-11-12 04:20:20 epoch /cgi-bin/work.cgi/what_you_want_it_named.ext
2020-11-12 04:44:24 khuxkm gemtext parsing question: what to do about empty lines between text lines?
2020-11-12 04:44:31 khuxkm are they considered text lines in and of themselves
2020-11-12 04:44:32 khuxkm ?
2020-11-12 04:44:38 acdw yes
2020-11-12 04:44:43 acdw afaict
2020-11-12 04:44:49 khuxkm well that's gonna make my parser a lot more complicated
2020-11-12 04:44:52 acdw oh?
2020-11-12 04:44:55 acdw should be line-based
2020-11-12 04:44:57 acdw ?
2020-11-12 04:45:17 khuxkm "should" being the operative word in that sentence
2020-11-12 04:45:27 khuxkm I'm trying to be fancy shmancy
2020-11-12 04:46:55 acdw ooohhhh
2020-11-12 04:46:59 acdw what areyou doing?
2020-11-12 04:47:40 khuxkm (ab)using SLY (a lexer-parser lib for Python) to parse Gemtext
2020-11-12 04:47:56 khuxkm and right now the only problem is that I can't convince it to accept an empty line
2020-11-12 04:48:35 acdw huh, that's weird
2020-11-12 04:48:44 acdw i mean, you don't *have* to count them as anything
2020-11-12 04:48:57 acdw i wouldn't think anyone would use a blank line as like, something semantic
2020-11-12 04:49:08 acdw unless you can't ocunt multiple ones --- sometimes spacing is good
2020-11-12 04:50:14 bie khuxkm: does that mean you're unable to handle blank lines in preformatted text?
2020-11-12 04:50:31 acdw ooh that is a wrinkle
2020-11-12 04:50:43 khuxkm bie: yes, kinda, but I get around that by manually re-adding those blank lines later
2020-11-12 04:51:02 khuxkm (which I do by counting the difference in `lineno` between each token and the one preceding it
2020-11-12 04:51:05 khuxkm )
2020-11-12 04:51:49 bie i'm not gonna lie, that seems unnecessarily complex, but i'm assuming you have a good reason to use the lexer-parser lib ;)
2020-11-12 04:52:20 acdw ^
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2020-11-12 04:54:31 khuxkm tip: never assume I have a good reason; usually I'm just going "fuck it can i?"
2020-11-12 04:54:54 bie lol
2020-11-12 04:55:43 khuxkm and the answer seems to be "either no, or just ignore the empty lines"
2020-11-12 04:56:13 khuxkm which I think I will just ignore the empty lines
2020-11-12 04:56:15 khuxkm
2020-11-12 04:57:48 khuxkm I'm treating each text line as its own <p> tag (my testing ground is a gemtext to HTML converter) so it'll be spaced either way
2020-11-12 04:58:00 acdw khuxkm: sammee
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2020-11-12 08:20:33 tane howdy
2020-11-12 08:25:15 ew0k o/
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2020-11-12 09:21:36 ew0k Trying out AV-98 now, and it’s nice
2020-11-12 09:21:59 ew0k did not expect to like a browser that looks like a terminal prompt
2020-11-12 09:23:06 ew0k On the other hand I didn’t expect to be toying with the idea of making a browser as a fuse filesystem, so...
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2020-11-12 10:30:55 bie ew0k: av98 is my "main" gemini browser, i really like it
2020-11-12 10:31:19 bie lagrange is nice, too, imo
2020-11-12 10:38:00 tane lagrange is just beautiful
2020-11-12 10:38:11 tane the automatically generated colorschemes kick ass too
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2020-11-12 11:17:58 ew0k is lagrange terminal based too?
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2020-11-12 11:26:16 aravk ew0k: it's a gui client
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2020-11-12 13:06:53 acdw ew0k: wait what. That sounds amazing
2020-11-12 13:07:25 ew0k acdw: it does?
2020-11-12 13:08:09 acdw The fuse based browser. Sorry just saw that was four hours ago
2020-11-12 13:08:26 ew0k the chat hasn't moved much since :D
2020-11-12 13:09:11 ew0k is there a gemini python library somewhere? And if there is, what does it do?
2020-11-12 13:09:13 acdw Lol
2020-11-12 13:15:40 ew0k acdw: now I'm reading about FUSE filesystem implementation in python, just because you said it sounded like a good idea XD
2020-11-12 13:16:17 ew0k Would be awesome if there was a python library for gemini requests/responses to build it in top of
2020-11-12 13:16:30 acdw Nice! You could mount capsules and browser em. That's be so dope
2020-11-12 13:18:17 ew0k that's what I had in mind. I'm not sure how to represent a capsule, yet
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2020-11-12 13:18:55 breadw Bah
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2020-11-12 13:19:49 ew0k I'm thinking a capsule as a directory, where each link is a subdirectory. But what would the text content of the capsule be?
2020-11-12 13:21:53 ew0k maybe make it a textfile. Content.txt
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2020-11-12 13:24:26 ew0k Not sure what to do with links that aren't gemini:// or gemtext, or how to tell them apart
2020-11-12 13:24:55 tane ew0k, sounds like a perfect match :)
2020-11-12 13:25:38 ew0k tane: not sure about that, but it sounds *doable* :D Whether or not that means it *should actually be done*... I dunno :D
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2020-11-12 13:29:22 acdw Yes!
2020-11-12 13:31:34 ew0k yes, what?! :D I feel like my brain has already gone down five paths this discussion could take and I don't know what we're talking about even though it's right in front of me XD
2020-11-12 13:31:48 @tomasino sounds like you need coffee and chocolate
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2020-11-12 13:32:43 ew0k I don't drink coffee, and am out of chocolate, so that's probably a fair assessment
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2020-11-12 13:51:13 khuxkm >Would be awesome if there was a python library for gemini requests/responses to build it in top of
2020-11-12 13:51:18 khuxkm might mess around and make one later
2020-11-12 13:51:19 ehmry acdw: ew0k: I think plan9 has something like this http_fs or so
2020-11-12 13:52:02 acdw oooh
2020-11-12 13:52:18 acdw i feel like the universe keeps pulling me toward plan 9
2020-11-12 13:54:17 ew0k khuxkm: wanna do it together? I'm looking at the AV-98 source code right now for inspiration
2020-11-12 13:55:05 khuxkm sure, why not? what code hosting site do you want to use?
2020-11-12 13:55:37 acdw ha
2020-11-12 13:55:39 acdw live coding
2020-11-12 13:56:14 ehmry http://okmij.org/ftp/USENIX99/?
2020-11-12 13:58:16 ehmry there are reasons why file-system as the interface didn't catch on, but its still fun to play with
2020-11-12 14:00:43 ew0k khuxkm: I'll put it up on https://notabug.org/tinyrabbit :)
2020-11-12 14:01:08 khuxkm ooh notabug
2020-11-12 14:01:20 khuxkm been a while since I last used it
2020-11-12 14:04:40 khuxkm ew0k: tossed you a follow
2020-11-12 14:05:00 ew0k There are follows???
2020-11-12 14:05:16 ★ ew0k has only used it as a git repo with web interface
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2020-11-12 14:50:06 nristen Cai0laim
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2020-11-12 15:11:44 acdw is that yr password?
2020-11-12 15:13:04 @tomasino hunter2
2020-11-12 15:13:40 insep fbkfbkfbkfbk
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2020-11-12 15:16:41 acdw tomasino: I just see *******
2020-11-12 15:16:49 @tomasino oh noes
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2020-11-12 15:18:04 @tomasino =O
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2020-11-12 15:25:29 jan6 all hail jan and jan6, geminæ ;P
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2020-11-12 15:29:45 acdw =0
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2020-11-12 15:37:25 insep :o
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2020-11-12 15:43:09 acdw .o.
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2020-11-12 16:02:14 mhj Morning all
2020-11-12 16:02:27 login morning mhj
2020-11-12 16:02:33 mhj Well, where I am anyway lol
2020-11-12 16:02:38 mhj How're y'all
2020-11-12 16:03:11 bie evening mhj
2020-11-12 16:03:49 bie fixed a bunch of bugs in my gemini server today 🎉
2020-11-12 16:10:39 ▬▬▶ epoch has joined #gemini
2020-11-12 16:11:50 acdw something something global greeting time
2020-11-12 16:11:52 acdw or whatever
2020-11-12 16:11:54 acdw also good job bie
2020-11-12 16:12:17 acdw I'm making a gemini client in awk
2020-11-12 16:12:20 acdw for jan6
2020-11-12 16:13:05 bie acdw: nice! how are you handling tls?
2020-11-12 16:14:11 acdw system("openssl s_client")
2020-11-12 16:14:14 acdw ;)
2020-11-12 16:14:19 bie :D
2020-11-12 16:14:26 acdw of course i'm doing this b/c bollux isn't enough
2020-11-12 16:14:43 aravk oh god acdw why why
2020-11-12 16:14:52 ★ aravk dies
2020-11-12 16:14:52 acdw jan6 asked me to
2020-11-12 16:14:57 acdw awk is actually pretty dope
2020-11-12 16:15:04 aravk I've used awk for some stuff
2020-11-12 16:15:07 acdw stretch goal: implement tls 1.3 in pure awk
2020-11-12 16:15:10 aravk it's like a watered down C
2020-11-12 16:15:30 aravk and it has really bad external (i.e. i/o etc.) support
2020-11-12 16:15:57 aravk though I can definitely see something like using awk as a shell around openssl s_client
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2020-11-12 16:35:18 acdw yes!
2020-11-12 16:35:28 acdw and watered up c is too much for me
2020-11-12 16:35:30 acdw so awk it is :)
2020-11-12 16:35:44 acdw and actually, awk can do a fair amount of i/o
2020-11-12 16:35:55 acdw see getline
2020-11-12 16:36:07 acdw and you can print to a file
2020-11-12 16:43:52 jan6 why use C, when you have D? ;P
2020-11-12 16:46:29 nihilazo why use C or D when you have go
2020-11-12 16:48:14 @tomasino Why use Go when you have sheep?
2020-11-12 16:48:16 ★ tomasino pets sheep
2020-11-12 16:48:48 aravk Why use anything when you can make your own language that's substantially better
2020-11-12 16:49:24 insep jan6: agreed
2020-11-12 16:49:28 insep (not really)
2020-11-12 16:49:28 @tomasino why use a language when you could create an AI that will make its own language and program for you
2020-11-12 16:49:42 aravk metanet
2020-11-12 16:50:37 aravk jan6: have you used D, by any chance?
2020-11-12 16:51:09 kayw why use <certain language that's perfectly fine> when you have <other perfectly acceptable language>
2020-11-12 16:54:56 ★ acdw pets sheep
2020-11-12 16:55:11 acdw wait, so there's B, C, D, and .. F#
2020-11-12 16:55:13 acdw where's E?
2020-11-12 16:55:22 acdw elang
2020-11-12 16:55:22 insep V
2020-11-12 16:55:28 @tomasino shh, we don't talk about E
2020-11-12 16:55:30 kayw erlang is E
2020-11-12 16:55:33 kayw or Elm
2020-11-12 16:55:33 ★ acdw creates Zlang
2020-11-12 16:55:37 acdw no, just E
2020-11-12 16:55:46 insep https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E_(programming_language)
2020-11-12 16:56:05 jcowan F is a modernized dialect of Fortran
2020-11-12 16:56:09 kayw so it DOES exist
2020-11-12 16:56:38 jcowan there are a couple of languages called G
2020-11-12 16:57:31 acdw eop
2020-11-12 16:57:33 acdw dope
2020-11-12 16:57:55 jcowan h is an artlang: programs in it can only output "h" or "'"
2020-11-12 16:58:18 ★ acdw creates ζlang
2020-11-12 16:58:26 acdw oh i've heard of h
2020-11-12 16:58:30 acdw how bout i ?
2020-11-12 16:58:33 acdw iteratorlang
2020-11-12 16:59:10 ★ jcowan shrugs; impossible to google reliably
2020-11-12 16:59:19 jcowan J and K are descendants of APL
2020-11-12 17:01:07 jcowan L actually looks pretty interesting
2020-11-12 17:01:18 nihilazo APL is unusual but interesting
2020-11-12 17:01:19 jcowan http://l-lang.org
2020-11-12 17:01:34 nihilazo although recently I have been leaving unusual but interesting languages behind for boring but useful ones
2020-11-12 17:01:36 nihilazo like go
2020-11-12 17:01:37 nihilazo which is boring, but useful
2020-11-12 17:02:02 jcowan I think Go and Rust should exchange names, as it is really Go that is rusty
2020-11-12 17:02:32 kayw I need to learn Go
2020-11-12 17:02:35 jcowan I worked for a year or so with a company that uses K for everything
2020-11-12 17:02:47 kayw K?
2020-11-12 17:02:55 jcowan APL offshoot, as I said
2020-11-12 17:03:10 kayw oh my bad
2020-11-12 17:03:12 jcowan the syntax is an unspeakable horror
2020-11-12 17:04:49 jcowan WP gives the example "2!!7!4" where each of the ! operators means something different.
2020-11-12 17:05:02 acdw K -- you mean Special K !? :P
2020-11-12 17:05:05 nihilazo kayw: so far my go experience has been positive
2020-11-12 17:05:38 jcowan The main two things in Go are interfaces, which have the great advantage of being retroactive: if you define an interface that some existing struct matches, it just works
2020-11-12 17:05:45 nihilazo with the exception of gopath and modules
2020-11-12 17:06:02 nihilazo because the book I learned from was written for gopath but modern go uses modules and it's annoying sometimes
2020-11-12 17:06:16 nihilazo although using a plan 9 environment to learn in does not help that
2020-11-12 17:06:18 jcowan and of course goroutines and channels, which the equivalent of pipes inside a single program, and unbelievably easy to use
2020-11-12 17:06:47 nihilazo I feel like go is probably going to become the language I pick up when I want to write anything bigger than a script from now on
2020-11-12 17:07:00 acdw oh fr jcowan ? that's cool, maybe i should look into go
2020-11-12 17:07:16 jcowan fvr
2020-11-12 17:07:18 aravk there is one thing that I hate _so much_ about Go
2020-11-12 17:07:23 aravk null pointers
2020-11-12 17:07:41 aravk goddamnit null pointers are ARGHHHH
2020-11-12 17:07:43 jns nullpointers are not exclusive to go unfortunately :)
2020-11-12 17:07:47 aravk true
2020-11-12 17:07:59 aravk but go has fixed tons of things
2020-11-12 17:08:00 ericonr nihilazo: GOPATH sux
2020-11-12 17:08:02 acdw boo
2020-11-12 17:08:03 ericonr modules are neat
2020-11-12 17:08:10 jns of course, null pointers are still better than a dangling pointer pointing to a random location in memory! at least you can check for a nullptr ;)
2020-11-12 17:08:16 nihilazo GOPATH does suck
2020-11-12 17:08:19 aravk the fact that they didn't fix NULL sucxs
2020-11-12 17:08:23 nihilazo which is why it's good that go no longer really uses is
2020-11-12 17:08:29 nihilazo but older go learning materials assume it still
2020-11-12 17:08:37 nihilazo because it's a relatively recent change
2020-11-12 17:08:37 ericonr jns: and null can break predictably, unlike random memory addresses
2020-11-12 17:08:52 aravk jns: e.g. rust makes references which are typesystem-guaranteed-safe ptrs
2020-11-12 17:09:00 aravk it's honestly brilliantw
2020-11-12 17:09:19 aravk what sucks about GOPATH?
2020-11-12 17:09:38 ericonr it's a really stupid way of setting up dependencies
2020-11-12 17:09:59 ericonr and usually your source files also need to be in it
2020-11-12 17:10:33 aravk can you give an example?
2020-11-12 17:10:35 ericonr aravk: rust's design is indeed pretty cool with that stuff
2020-11-12 17:11:07 aravk ericonr: I love Rust the language, hate Rust the ecosystem (oh and fuck cargo)
2020-11-12 17:11:08 ericonr aravk: https://golang.org/doc/gopath_code.html
2020-11-12 17:11:13 aravk thx
2020-11-12 17:11:31 ericonr why, don't you love needing to fork dependencies in order to fix bugs? :P
2020-11-12 17:11:35 ▬▬▶ FemmeAndroid has joined #gemini
2020-11-12 17:11:50 aravk I wish that idea was built into the language
2020-11-12 17:12:05 insep i hate rust the language (at least reading it, some of the stuff in it is pretty cool) and i hate rust the ecosystem
2020-11-12 17:12:14 nihilazo GOPATH was a really dumb kinda thing
2020-11-12 17:12:14 aravk like modifying the dep code or integrating a thin layer on top of it
2020-11-12 17:12:37 aravk from what I understand Google has leaked its shittiness in
2020-11-12 17:12:40 ericonr it comes with the territory of having your own package manager :/
2020-11-12 17:12:50 ericonr also I kinda hate the build times
2020-11-12 17:13:04 ericonr if I build two related projects I still need to rebuild a whole lot of shit
2020-11-12 17:13:18 ericonr unless I setup the ccache equivalent which is a full blown server
2020-11-12 17:13:38 aravk insep: my favorite parts of rust are everythin memory safety: references, ownership and borrowing, lifetimes, etc.
2020-11-12 17:13:55 nihilazo go's module system seems pretty good
2020-11-12 17:14:01 nihilazo as a replacement for gopath
2020-11-12 17:14:01 ericonr insep: I think most distro people do :P
2020-11-12 17:14:16 nihilazo I haven't come across anything that requires gopath in the wild so far but I've not been using go for long
2020-11-12 17:14:21 aravk yes it's difficult to understand why it's needed (took me a few months) but once you get it it makes perfect sense
2020-11-12 17:14:27 nihilazo it's mostly just outdated documentation that assumes it
2020-11-12 17:14:36 nihilazo I tried learning rust and it was just so fuckin complicated
2020-11-12 17:14:44 aravk it is, yes
2020-11-12 17:14:54 nihilazo I had the same experience with haskell. To understand this language to make the most of it, is hard
2020-11-12 17:14:54 aravk they've added a little too much stuff to it
2020-11-12 17:15:09 nihilazo go is a very simple language, and I can understand reading go code after using it for less than a week
2020-11-12 17:15:14 aravk but the ownership and borrowing stuff is weirdly hard to explain
2020-11-12 17:15:26 ericonr nihilazo: rust is at least more useful than haskell\
2020-11-12 17:15:32 ericonr for better or for worse
2020-11-12 17:16:00 ericonr aravk: ownership makes sense to me in the sense of "who's supposed to allocate and who's supposed to free this?"
2020-11-12 17:16:05 ericonr at least that
2020-11-12 17:16:06 insep ericonr: i've heard haskell is pretty good for writing parsers
2020-11-12 17:16:13 insep also it's functional, some nerds like that
2020-11-12 17:16:16 aravk that's exactly how you should interpret it erocnr
2020-11-12 17:16:38 aravk but also think about e.g. file handle ownershipz
2020-11-12 17:16:52 aravk sorry for mistypes, new keyboard
2020-11-12 17:17:04 ericonr I can do that with my old keyboard just fine ;P
2020-11-12 17:17:07 ericonr insep: lol
2020-11-12 17:17:39 aravk entirely functional is bad
2020-11-12 17:17:51 nihilazo I like functional
2020-11-12 17:17:56 aravk I liked D's system of pure/impure functions
2020-11-12 17:18:00 aravk wait
2020-11-12 17:18:07 aravk I'm confusing different things
2020-11-12 17:18:09 aravk nvm
2020-11-12 17:18:11 insep i like d
2020-11-12 17:18:16 aravk d is pretty cool
2020-11-12 17:18:16 insep 's attribute hell
2020-11-12 17:18:18 ericonr I dislike D internals
2020-11-12 17:18:21 insep including udas
2020-11-12 17:18:33 ericonr I glanced at it to fix the package and wanted to run away screaming
2020-11-12 17:18:38 aravk though it has a bunch of non-features, yeah
2020-11-12 17:18:55 ericonr languages that want to interop with C really should learn to read C headers :p
2020-11-12 17:19:00 aravk try finding the source of a C macro
2020-11-12 17:19:09 insep ericonr: i think you also was the one who took a look at d's translation of unistd.h with me in #musl
2020-11-12 17:19:11 aravk in 20 header files
2020-11-12 17:19:14 ericonr instead of copying their shitty versions of those headers into their stupid language
2020-11-12 17:19:24 ericonr insep: indeed
2020-11-12 17:19:34 acdw insep: i mean haskell is what pandoc, Greatest Parser Ever, is written in
2020-11-12 17:19:52 ericonr insep: tbh I have the same issue with Rust, but Rust is kinda bigger for now so more people are keeping their C declarations up to date
2020-11-12 17:19:56 insep acdw: shellcheck
2020-11-12 17:20:10 acdw lol
2020-11-12 17:20:12 acdw that too
2020-11-12 17:20:17 insep there's shellguard or whatever which is written in rust, but it sucks
2020-11-12 17:21:14 nihilazo I like clojure's functional
2020-11-12 17:21:16 insep ericonr: also there's https://github.com/atilaneves/dpp, it works perfectly fine as long as you don't look at output :D
2020-11-12 17:21:35 nihilazo which is like, functional in ways that make sense but then allows site effects rather than using haskell's overcomplicated monad system
2020-11-12 17:21:45 nihilazo it's a shame it's on the JVM because it's very nice
2020-11-12 17:23:27 ericonr insep: well that looks like something people should be using :P
2020-11-12 17:32:43 insep ericonr: let's just say it isn't the best at making final output look good
2020-11-12 17:33:08 insep just as an random example from the internet https://github.com/denizzzka/d_c_arm_test/blob/master/d/freertos_dpp_bindings/freertos.d
2020-11-12 17:34:09 ericonr oof
2020-11-12 17:34:14 ericonr that's a lot of boilerplate
2020-11-12 17:34:15 insep there's also dstep, it isn't as beautiful to use, but final output looks better imo
2020-11-12 17:38:40 boringcactus ericonr: for Crowbar i'm probably going to eventually write a tool to semi-automatically translate C header files into Crowbar header files, but C headers don't always give as much information as Crowbar headers
2020-11-12 17:39:02 boringcactus so i will be copying my shitty versions of headers into my stupid language
2020-11-12 17:39:27 ericonr boringcactus: indeed; stuff like "can fail" and "never fails" for functions that return pointers, for example
2020-11-12 17:39:31 ericonr buuut
2020-11-12 17:39:49 boringcactus or "pointer to array with length defined by this other parameter" as opposed to just "pointer"
2020-11-12 17:40:01 ericonr having your copy of C headers means C libraries can't add new stuff or change their stuff around without you making the changes locally as well
2020-11-12 17:40:13 ericonr and it rots pretty damn quick
2020-11-12 17:41:10 boringcactus yeah, i'm not quite sure how i'll handle that
2020-11-12 17:41:54 boringcactus i do plan to eventually have a community-maintained repository of manually-translated headers for existing libraries, but that's. for the distant future
2020-11-12 17:42:02 boringcactus since the language doesn't really exist yet
2020-11-12 17:49:27 jcowan IMO there are quickly going to be very few places where manual allocation beats GC
2020-11-12 17:49:36 @tomasino anyone spot any new amazing capsules worth reading?
2020-11-12 17:49:56 jcowan I have programmed in C + GC, and it is completely delightful
2020-11-12 17:52:25 ericonr jcowan: feels weird
2020-11-12 17:52:30 ericonr i should try it, tho
2020-11-12 17:52:43 insep boringcactus: encourage creation of autogenerated bindings
2020-11-12 18:09:54 acdw tomasino: gem.acdw.net :)
2020-11-12 18:22:58 jcowan It takes me back to the days when programs had plenty of memory, and leaks didn't matter much: they would all get cleaned up at the end of the program anyhow.
2020-11-12 18:23:26 jcowan with libgc, malloc does what you expect and free does nothing
2020-11