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From Taliesin!somewhere!Taliesin!Melisande Wed Apr 26 13:49:52 1989
Subject: Re:witchcraft
Jrohr states that"Magic to a witch is the same thing as prayer to
a Christian" Then jrohr goes on to say"A witch would use magick in
the form of a spell or a circle to focus the power of mind that is
within us all."
Magick is not the same thing as prayer!Prayer is not used to focus
the power of mind that is within us all.Prayer is sent to outside
forces.The benefits are attributed to whatever god or gods the
supplicant believes in.It is also used without much hope of success.
It is considered "God's will",no matter whether your god is benevolent
or a zealous tyrant.I'm speaking in general about religions,not just
christianity.
If a ritual{such as the one's described}were being used to augment
the psychic abilities of us all,given that they exist,I fail to see
in what way it would be related to prayer,religion,or any sort of
spirituality.
If a spell or circle were being used to achieve the desired results
by calling on gods or goddesses in a carefully proscribed way,intending
to enforce their aid,willing or not,to enforce you will,I would not
call that prayer either.
I have read the Mists of Avalon.I thought it was a very interesting
book,both for her ideas on religion and feminism.I think it helps
make witchcraft very attractive as a religion.But is it really a religion?
Is it a science based on natural abilities?What is the role of magic
in witchcraft?
Many people object to witchcraft from a religious point of view.It
doesn't fit their beliefs or cultural biases.Others object to it
from a scientific point of view because they don't believe in magic.
Is a belief in magic necessary to embrace witchcraft as a religion?
Is a belief in religion {i.e.faith,mysticism,enlightenment}necessary
for the practice of the craft{magick}?
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From Taliesin!somewhere!Taliesin!Sam Fri Apr 28 13:11:08 1989
Subject: inspection
First, there is a world of difference between faith and BLIND faith.
Second, I have seen no one on this board express a belief that witches
are evil. The only message that came even close to being inflammatory was
left months ago by an anonymous guest who (to my knowledge) has never
returned, so I am not sure who you are afraid of foisting their beliefs onto
All I find is friendly discussion among rational people.
The impression I have gotten from your last two messages is that you do not
wish to continue this examination of the foundations of pagan beliefs. If
this is so, then please do post on pagan monogamy! If my impression is
incorrect, I will stand happily corrected.
P.S. Pardon my blind eyes, but I took the quote from message #30 directly
from the original file. I did remove the line left by an editing error.
I apologize if this was a faux pas, and will remember to reproduce (quotes)
faithfully and accurately from now on.
-Sam.
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From Taliesin!somewhere!jezebel Fri Apr 28 23:41:23 1989
Subject: What the occult is (or may be)
Sorry, I guess my last message wasnt too clear. It was mostly a stream-
of-conciousness knee-jerk reaction to the preceding message. (My last message
was #6)
As a practising witch (and I do need the practise!) I simply cannot allow
a charge (as I saw it) of Satanism to go unanswered. I dont know if
the guy was trying to be funny or what, but it did get some disculssion
going, so thats something.
What I was trying to get at (reading it back) was just how little
the occult has to do with religion. Most of the occult is tied
up in religous beliefs, true, but then so was most of science back
before the Rennaisance and Copernicus. Before then, the greatest
. If we begin to treat the occult the same
way we would treat investigations int o physics or biology, then we
Parapsychologists are studying
occult and psycic phenomena, and coming up with some very interesting
results. True, they have not been able to definitivly prove or dis-
prove anything, but please keep in mind that they are working under
a tremendous social attitude that "theres some reasonable explaination
for all of this." I think, that given the nature of this particular
conference, we can make the assumption that occult and psychic phen-
omena exist, and can be worked with at a practical level., and therefor
we can go from there. (Something I picked up from religon class...
to keep people from nit-picking over minutiae, you list your assumptions
at the top of the page.)
So there we are. THE OCCULT EXISTS. The next step is to come up
with a satisfactory definition. To me, the occult consists of the
entire set of ritual and ritualized behaivors intended to promote
a particular psychic or psychological result. This can range from
ritual magic (Beltaine gatherings and the Catholic mass) to personal
rituals intended to help you get through an ordesal (sports figures
preparing to go into a game, or me preparing ot recieve a shot.).
to receive a shot).
These rituals (for lack of a better word, forgive) result in a
change in state, of the people involve as well as possibly a
d and possibly in the world
around (if such was the intent.)
That may not satisfy you. Remember that at this stage, definitions
are a highly personal thing., rather like your own personal philosophy.
I also write this under trying circumstances (a friend is loudly
championing her views as I type).
A word about bookstores. Remember, bookstores cater to the public,
and try to keep anything contriversial off the shelves. Unless they
are occult bookstores, DO NOT TRUST THE SUBJECT HEADINGS. Be careful
what you buy. Fluf and bunnies Shirley McLain is next to The Necro-
nomicon is next to 1400 Ways to Read Your Future in an
n Ordinary Deck
of Playing Cards is next to... You get my meaning. Your best bet
is to find a book someone else has read and liked and to special
order it. It may be more expensive, but you know what you are getting.
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From Taliesin!somewhere!jrohr Fri Apr 28 23:41:30 1989
Subject: Occult (sigh)
It seems that thoughout history diiferent words have been given meanings that
are not really what they mean. The word "occult" is one of them. The word as
Jezebel pointed out means "hidden" or "secret". In fact early christianity
was a "occult religion" (I find it interesting and sad that a religion that was
so pursecuted in its infancy has turned around and in its power pursecuted othe
victim of bad press. The word "witch" and "faggot" are other examples. Did
you ever wonder where that word fag come from?? Well its because they used to
burn the homosexuals before that witches (hence "flamming faggot") To a Brit
the word means " a small thatch of kindling" I could go on but I will spare
you all.... Please keep in mind that langage is a powerful thing.
Enough of my babblings..end note.. I personally hope for the day when people
can reach a level of open mindedness that no positive religion must be hidden
or secret and must spend all this time and energy saying what they are NOT.
By the way speaking as a future librarian, most bookstores need to have a
intensive course in cataloging. I, who can find my way around Watson with
no problem get lost at Town Criers!!
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From Taliesin!somewhere!jrohr Fri Apr 28 21:15:33 1989
Subject: witchcraft
I hope this helps to clarify a few points. Magick to a witch is basically
the samething as prayer is a christian..again evidence of langage. A witch
would use magick in the form of a spell or circle to focus the power of the
mind that is within us all. For example I have a object that when I feel some
real negitive energy I concentrate that energy and "put" it into the object
then I ground out the object... another example is the burning of loveletters
after the relationship has gone away. This is a way of purging the focusing.
What I want to stress is that Wicca is the religion and witchcraft is the
practise. A good book to read is Marion Zimmer Bradleys "The Mists of Avalon"
It is basically a retelling of the Arthurian Legend though the eyes of the
women. It gives a good feel of the spirit of Wicca and its conlict with the
church (notice I said church not Christ) In fact Morgaine says "I have no
quarrel with the christ only his priests" Please keep in mind that the book
desciptions of the rituals are what it might have been like in the 6th century
Witches celebrate the holidays in a more modern manner. Just as the christians
celebrate edited versons of the orginal mass.
About the word "faggot" I will have to confer with my oxford at work and my
gay friend that informed me of the conection more on that at a later time.
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From Taliesin!somewhere!Melisande Fri Apr 28 23:41:45 1989
Subject: RE:What occult is
I don't think that I can leave Jezebel's basic assumptions unchallenged.
I don't think that they are the minutiae but rather the basics of this
discussion.
I still think that you are stirring religion,mysticism,parapsychology,
and magic into one large cauldron of ideas and beliefs.It's rather more clear
to me that your definition of "occult"is closer to my definition of magic.
I'm not at all sure that you can give magic {or magic}the categorization
of a science.
Let's start with parapsychology.Parapsychologists do not consider their
field as having anything to do with the occult.They feel the same way about
being confused with magic or witchcraft{or ufology or cryptozoology or
forte
\033fortune-telling,etc.}as witches do about being confused with Satanists.
They're having a difficult enough time being accepted as a legitimate
science as it is,due to the subjective and elusive nature of "psi"and
it's inability to be reconciled with what we know to be true of"normal"
laws of nature.
Their are three main areas of paranormal study.Informational psi
{telepathy,clairvoyance,precognition,retrocognition},expressive psi
{psychokinesis and related effects}and survival-related experiences.
These are rather arbitrary divisions since it is often impossible
to determine which category of psi may be in effect.
If we have the given that people have psi experiences in all cultures
and that they are a common and normal part of human experience although
difficult to understand,it still requires a large conceptual leap to
conclude that one could influence their world through the use of magick
or ritual.
Witchcraft also has much to do with religion.Many religons have promoted
and accepted the inborn psi abilities of people,often without the trappings
or belief system associated with ritual magic.In fact,one anthropological
division made between magic and religion is the idea that religions use
prayer{politely asking the god or gods to intercede on their behalf]and
magic uses ritual designed to coerce or persuade the gods to act{or,if
you prefer,the universe to change itself to suit you.}Either way,both of
these things are quite different from the idea that people can sometimes
know or do things in ways that are as yet inexplicable,but will someday
be known.
If you accept the presence of psi as an innate human ability,it still
doesn't prove the existence of any god or gods,the efficacy of magic or
magical laws or rules.It doesn't justify one belief system over any others
although I can understand the temptation to point to PK and say,"see,people
can move things with their minds,therefore magic works."
What would be a good example of proof that their is something to"the
craft"in witchcraft?I don't know.Maybe jezebel or jrohr can answer that.
Does the acceptance of the existence of magic justify a belief in witch-
craft as a religion?I don't think so.I think that that is an entirely
different concept.If witchcraft is a religion at all,a belief in magic
would just be another part of that religion,although it may be necessary
to it.
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From Taliesin!somewhere!jezebel Fri Apr 28 21:35:58 1989
Subject: RE: what
No, we do not worship Satan! The occult (the word means "hidden")
was a perfectly legitimate field of study among the Magi before and
during the Rennaisance. But with the birth of "science", notably
physics and chemistry (from alchemy), the study of the occult fell
into disfavor because it couldn't be "proved" in the same way that
the "hard" sciences can. Remember, the driving quest of the alchemists
was to discover how to turn lead into gold. That is now possible.
It's not easy, but it's now possible. the study of the occult has
been revived and renamed "parapsychology", and there are serious,
documented cases of telepathy, clairvoyance, precognition, the
existence of ghosts, etc.. So there is some scientific (unless
you don't consider psychology to be science) evidence of "supernatural"
phenomena, which may prove to be a set of very natural occurences
after all.
If you are studying the occult as a non-scientist, you are probobly
studing ways in which a person can expand her own psychic powers.
Religon has little to do with it! Admittidly, the Christian church
attempts to discourage people from experimenting, but the Jewish
tradition has a splendid tradition of occult study in the Caballah.
It is important to realize that the occult is a tool by which many
things can be accomplished. THE OCCULT IS NOT EVIL IN AND OF ITSELF!
A hypodermic needle, for instance, can cause great harm, by being used
to inject poison or intravenous drugs (and helping the spread of such
diseases as hepatitis and AIDS.) But a needle can also be used to
inject vaccines, and antibiotics, and noone considers banning needles
simply because of the potential harm they can "do". The same is true of
the occult. It is not the fact of its use that is important, it is
rather the use to which it is put. An evil action is an evil action,
whether it is by spell or by physical means. The Wiccans have but one
law: An it harm none, do as you will. The Wiccans are also great users
of positive magic.
For a good, non religious look at the occult and its potential, I
suggest Marian Weinstein's book POSITIVE MAGIC. I found it at
Adventure here in lawrence, and I understand it can also be gotten
through Lamplighter Books.
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From Taliesin!somewhere!Melisande Fri Apr 28 21:35:55 1989
Subject: What is the "occult"?
I'm sorry,jezebel,but your reply to "guest"left me a bit confused.
Are you trying to define occult,or defend and rationalize belief
in the paranormal,or give a discourse on the ethics of the use of
ritual magic?
It seems to me that there are several issues here{admittedly,none
of which have anything to do with devil worship}."Occult" is a very
catch-all term.It seems to have been used for everything from
the Necronomicon to Shirley McClaine.{Have you ever looked in the "occult
section"of your local bookstore?"}
I"d really be interested in seeing more conversation on these
subjects.
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From Taliesin!somewhere!Sam Fri Apr 28 23:41:55 1989
Subject: occult
Well, Melisande beat me to it - I too felt that jezebel had magic and the
occult confused. The occult concerns those forces/phenomena not explained
by science (if/when they are explained they won't be "hidden" anymore,
right?). Magic is the ritual manipulation or use of these forces. This, of
. Psi is a group of related forces (which may or may
not be used in a magical sense). Religion is not necessarily associated with
any of the above. HOWEVER, belief in "supernatural" forces is just that,