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commentary on a series of BBS message discussions about the Temple of Set, the current incarnation of Anton LaVey's Church of Satan. the commentator is a member of the Temple. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I have not seen any of the 1990 correspondence between Tim Maroney and Dr. Aquino, nor do I have any interest in seeing it. I will try to avoid commenting on the alleged abuses or failings of language, protocol, or courtesy from either side within that correspondence. (For those who may need help identifying this message thread, Diane has asked some specific questions concerning Tim Maroney's 11/90 "The Nazi Trapezoid" [which purports to identify leanings toward Nazi sympathy within the Temple of Set] and Dr. Aquino's response to same. This is my response, hoping to answer those questions. Both original documents have been re-posted in this echo in the past month, and both are available in the "TOS" file section of Northern Lights BBS and in file sections of various other BBS nodes.) I'm also going to try to avoid commenting on the personal comments made by anyone concerning anyone else anywhere in this thread -- I find only two justifications for my spending so much time this week examining the documents and comments concerning same, material which is at best peripheral to my own personal Xeper: a) You have indicated that you want to be able to present a clear argument that Satanism is not inherently fascist, and you want my assistance in proving that the Temple of Set is not fascist, so you can use it to support your argument. I think this is a worthy project. b) If the Temple presents me with another opportunity to exercise my Toastmasters training on their behalf, and if the same sorts of questions are asked of me (as they likely will be if your activities garner publicity), I had better be prepared. So I'm going to concentrate strictly on the question of fascism, the supposed appearance of same, and the actuality of non-fascism. Before I start, a reminder: The following statements are my personal descriptions of the positions and points of view of Setians, each of them an individual. The Temple of Set as an organization has no opinion or point of view of its own concerning fascism -- that topic is simply outside the Temple's realm of concern. To my knowledge there has never been a formal policy made nor formal discussion concerning the issues you ask about. Any opinion, position, or point of view is that of individuals, not of the organization. ------- In your 1/25 post to me, you suggest that the question, "What does Aquino agree with and disagree with about Nazi ideology (repeat: Nazi *ideology*, not just Nazi practices)?" is a reasonable question. I would agree. You go on to wonder why Dr. Aquino "felt he had to duck this question." I find he answered several elements of the question. However, those answers may have been too general to answer the questions you have. In Dr. Aquino's 11/14/90 response, as quoted in part 2 of your 1/25 post to me, Dr. Aquino says, "I have always deplored its [Naziism's] premises, policies, and activities which resulted in savagery and misery to a great many people." He deplores its premises (ideology) and its policies (practices) which result in savagery and misery. What are the specifics not covered in that statement that you need clarification on? What are the elements of Nazi ideology that concern you which did not "result in savagery and misery to a great many people"? For those who may not know the precise definitions, my dictionary defines ideology as: "1: visionary theorizing. 2a: a systematic body of concepts, esp. about human life or culture. 2b: a manner or the content of thinking characteristic of an individual, group, or culture. 2c: the integrated assertions, theories, and aims that constitute a sociopolitical program." Each of the variations of definition 2 apply to this discussion. My dictionary defines Naziism as, "the body of political and economic doctrines held and put into effect by the National Socialist German Workers' party in the Third German Reich including the totalitarian principle of government, state control of all industry, predominance of groups assumed to be racially superior, and supremacy of the fuhrer." I'm not Dr. Aquino, but I've been reading his works for well over a decade now, and I've heard some of his discussions on these and related topics, and I believe I can accurately state the following: 1) Dr. Aquino disagrees with the Nazi ideology of the totalitarian principle of government. While he recognizes that there are problems in every form of democracy used to date, democracy in general results in better governments and better organizations than does totalitarianism. In evidence of this, I point to the organization of the Temple of Set (his design), where a) there are multiple checks and balances designed to ensure that no single person wields totalitarian power, b) all members of the Priesthood have an equal vote concerning the bylaws of the organization, and c) a democratic vote of the Council of Nine is powerful enough to remove any officer from power and to expel any member from the organization, including the High Priest. 2) Dr. Aquino disagrees with the Nazi ideology of the state control of all industry. While Dr. Aquino is certainly no captain of industry (he prefers to earn his livelihood within academia), I've never heard him express any dissatisfaction with capitalism or the free market system, other than the generally recognized fact that people can be financially hurt in a non-socialist state. Instead of arguing for a socialist state, which would be the case if he supported this Nazi ideology, Dr. Aquino instead argues that Black Magicians should be able to successfully make their own way in a capitalist society. 3) Dr. Aquino disagrees with the Nazi ideology of the predominance of groups assumed to be racially superior. I have always seen Dr. Aquino treat people of various races as comparative equals, judging people not by race, but by personal qualities under the control of the individual (their education, their application of their native intelligence, their sociability, their honor, their dedication, etc). 4) Dr. Aquino disagrees with the Nazi ideology of the supremacy of the fuhrer. There were some things that Hitler said or wrote which are worth studying, but there were also many, many things said, written, and done by Hitler which are reprehensible. Setians are fond of saying they worship none but their own higher Selves. Dr. Aquino lives that ideal. Those are the four ideologies of Naziism listed in my dictionary. If there are other ideologies you wonder about, you'll need to ask about them specifically. Since Naziism and fascism are so closely related, and since Dr. Aquino and the Temple of Set have been accused of being fascist, let me explore that topic also. Fascism -- 1: a political philosophy, movement, or regime that exalts nation and race above the individual, and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition. 2: a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control. 1) Dr. Aquino believes in and exalts the individual over the nation and race. This is central to the concept of Xeper and the Left Hand Path. This concept is even more important than the Temple of Set -- as High Priest he as seen many individual initiates pleasantly leave the Temple of Set for reasons of their own, and has later welcomed back several of those. Such is not the behavior of a fascist. 2) Dr. Aquino does not believe in a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader. He believes in the American form of democracy (while admitting that it has its problems), and he has designed the Temple's organization and bylaws to prevent any dictatorial leader from gaining absolute control. 3) Dr. Aquino does not believe in social regimentation nor forcible suppression of opposition. Instead he welcomes diversity within the Temple of Set, and has not only tolerated but welcomed intelligent forms of opposition within the Temple of Set. ----- You quote Dr. Aquino's 11/14/90 statement, "To the extent the Order is interested in Nazi Germany, it is essentially with regard to the very extensive research into occultism conducted by the Ahnenerbe and other groups & individuals during that period." You then go on to claim, "As the Order of the Trapezoid statement makes clear, there is much more to its interest in Nazism than this. Aquino does not address any of the specific issues raised in Tim's article, which I will highlight in a later message to you." (I haven't received same, as far as I know.) Reading through the Order of the Trapezoid statement, I find that the introduction concentrates on German Romanticism, and the Order's statement doesn't even mention the Third Reich until the eighth paragraph. The Third Reich and the Nazi influence is then discussed and dismissed in six paragraphs. The Third Reich and Nazi influence occupies less than one page in the five-page document. Reading those six paragraphs, I find myself unable to support your claim that "there is much more to its interest in Nazism than this." I do find the 1939 quote from Herman Rauschning, which said, "This irrational element in National Socialism is the actual source of its strength. It is the reliance on it that accounts for its 'sleepwalker's immunity' in the face of one practical problem after another. It explains why it was possible for National Socialism to attain power almost without the slightest tangible idea of what it was going to do. ..." Yes, the study of the social dynamics which are mentioned are of interest, but I fail to see the connection between those social dynamics and Naziism ... those social dynamics apply to all fanatical movements which quickly rise to power (or at least struggle for it). Do you disagree? If you can point out to me where you find this interest in Naziism rather than German Romanticism, perhaps I'll be better able to answer your question. Until then, I just don't see the source of your concern. ----- In your 1/18 reply to Triple Six's 1/13 message to you, you quote his statement, "Dr. Aquino states that the 'third Reich's dynamism got out of hand, leading it to embark on irrational and destructive foreign invasions...'" and Triple Six's commentary, and you respond, "Yes, but can't you see that Aquino's statement *is* rather puzzling? Aquino tries to distinguish between the Third Reich's "dynamism and life-worship" on the one hand, and its racism and "crude xenophobia" on the other hand. But what else was Nazism's "dynamism and life-worship" based on, besides racism?" As indicated in the Order of the Trapezoid's statement, that dynamism and life worship was founded in a historical philosophy of German Romanticism, which significantly predates Naziism. I believe you'll find that verified in the books listed in that reading list section (though since I haven't read them, I can't verify that from my own research - - like you I'm not interested in the topic myself). It's my impression that racism is not a significant part of the more historical German traditions, at least not any more than you'll find /anywhere/ in the ancient world up through the 1800's. Moving on to Tim's 11/11/90 "The Nazi Trapezoid" itself, Tim Maroney opens his discussion of the supposed Nazi sympathy within the Temple of Set with, "But unsettling questions remain concerning this organization. It harbors a subgroup, the Order of the Trapezoid, which is dedicated to Nazi occultism. Aquino is known to have participated in black magical rituals at Wewelsburg Castle, set up as a place of occult working for the SS by Heinrich Himmler. Aquino counts Nazi occultism as one of his chief interests, and the heraldry and symbolism of the SS is one of his favorite topics of discussion. These facts would seem to indicate, at least on the face of them, that Aquino is sympathetic to Nazism." 1) The Temple of Set also "harbors" a subgroup, the Order of the Vampyre. No, this group doesn't wander the streets at night and suck the blood out of homeless victims, but rather (quoting from its statement), "Members of this Order will strive to bring to Life those qualities and aspects of our potential which have long been considered to be dead, undead, or just plain latent." It also "harbors" a subgroup, the Order of Shuti, which examines (among other things) Opposites and Extremes. In its statement (which I just uploaded to Northern Lights) I find, "One obsolete philosophy of magic was that to achieve balance, the magician has to experience and participate in the extremes (often the extremes of good and evil)." No, this group doesn't advocate the pursuit of evil and the execution of horrors, "but the Initiate of Shuti will recognize and work with any and all opposites / extremes, and with the ranges and balances between them, whenever and however appropriate." It also "harbors" a subgroup, the Order of the Scarab. Quoting from its statement, "This Order directly addresses the question of *responsible* Setian magic. ... Major emphasis is placed on personal aims, wakefulness, Becoming, and the use of Lesser and Greater Black Magic with accountability." There is a wide diversity of activity within the Temple of Set (these are but four of the eleven Orders found within the Temple of Set as of today). Many of the activities pursued within the Temple of Set are in direct opposition to Nazi ideas and policies. To indicate that there is Nazi sympathy because one group looks at the Nazi use of occultism seems to be jumping to a conclusion on insufficient information. 2) The Order of the Trapezoid is *not* "dedicated" to Nazi occultism. That is just one of the areas which they explore, and my impression (from reading their newsletter and talking to their members, since I myself am not a member of that Order) is that Nazi occultism is a fairly minor aspect of the Order. If the Order of the Trapezoid is "dedicated" to anything, that dedication is found in the statement, "The O.Tr. is an Order of knighthood characterized by strict personal honor and faithfulness to the quest for the Grail. The Order is a *knighthood* in that its members are pledged to the traditional chivalric virtues as appropriate to each situation encountered. By *honor* is meant a sense of justice, ethics, and responsibility prior to personal comfort, convenience, or advantage. This honor is known by one's *faithfulness* to the Quest of the Grail, which is the self, soul, or psyche made perfect through conscious refinement and exercise of the Will." Let me repeat that sentence which expands on the Order's concept of honor: "By