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STATUS: ALL ALLOWED
NUMBER OF LINES: 629
1 If you are in need of help, you need but ask......
2 *********************** REMOVED: 20 SEP 83 *************************
3 Welcome to BWMS (BackWater Message System) Mike Day System operator
4 ************************************************************
5 GENERAL DISCLAIMER: BWMS IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INFORMATION PLACED ON
6 THIS SYSTEM.
7 BWMS was created as an electronic bill board. BWMS is a privatly owned
8 and operated system which is currently open for use by the general public.
9 No restrictions are placed on the use of the system.
10 It is intended that the system be normally used for messages and
11 advertisments by the users. As the system is privatly owned, I retain the
12 right to remove any and all messages which I may find offensive
13 to me. Additionally because of the limited size of the system, it will be
14 periodically purged of older messages. (only 629 lines of data can be saved)
15 The saved information will be cycled to drive 'B' while the information on
16 drive 'B' will be archived, and a fresh disk will be installed in drive 'A'.
17 To leave a message, type 'ENTER' and use ctrl/C or break to get out
18 of the enter mode. The message is automaticly stored.
19 If after entering the message you find you made a mistake,
20 use the replace command to replace the line.
21 To exit from the system, type 'OFF' then hang up.
22 Type 'HELP' to see other commands that are available on the system.
23 ========================================
24
25 Mikey: your tax example didn't include a /0, just a 0/ which
26 WILL return 0 on ant system that I ever heard of.
27
28 Now as for the old 0/0 argument: The mass of a particle at a given
29 velocity is given by Mv = M/tau, where tau = SQR(1-((v^2)/(c^2))).
30 At c tau=0. Now all photons have a REST mass of 0, thus the mass
31 of a photon is 0/0! Note that photons can have ANY mass.
32 ____________________________Leonard________________________
33 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~
34
35 Leonard: I do not dispute your mathematical formulation in the above
36 problem, but I do question your interpretation of an undefined value.
37 An undefined value such as 0/0 does not imply ANY value, only that an
38 exact value cannot be ascertained using that formulation. Consider
39 the slope of a line in the xy coordinate plane, which may be repre-
40 sented as the difference in y-coordinates divided by the difference in
41 x-coordinates of two distinct points on the lines. So for a vertical
42 line, of the form x=constant, the difference in x-coordinates is zero
43 resulting in a slope of m=something/0, which is undefined. Does this
44 mean that m can assume ANY value? NO, clearly, m<>1,m<>-1,m<>.5,....etc.
45 Given an infinite amount of time, and an infinite amount of patience,
46 we could find an infinite number of values which m does not equal. Thus,
47 there are limits to the range of values m can assume but those limits
48 are mathematically undefined.
49
50 Dirty Ol' Man
51
52 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~
53 ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
54 TO DOM:
55 YOU THINK THAT YOU HAVE TROUBLE GETTING A LINE HERE?? I'VE BEEN TRYING FOR
56 THREE DAYS AND FINALLY GOT THROUGH.
57 MISSED A WHOLE DISC, AS FAR AS I CAN TELL.
58 WISH THERE WERE SOME WAY WE COULD ACCESS MORE THAN ONE BACK DISK-SIDE:
59 C.Y.M
60
61 ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
62 MIKEY: Cheap shot number two comin' at ya'--- Yes, taxes can be complex;
63 but they get a whole lot tougher when one attempts to divide instead of
64 multiply when applying rates to bases! You youngsters...don't ever, ever
65 try this without adult supervision! That's incredible......
66 {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
67 OPPS! YOUR RIGHT OF COURSE.. MY APPOLIGIES. I SHOULD CHECK MY WORK A LITTLE MORE
68 BEFORE ENTERING IT. (SO HOWCOME NO ONE ELSE CAUGHT IT?)
69 OF COURSE THE POINT I WAS TRYING TO MAKE WAS THAT WHEN DEALING WITH NUMBERS
70 IN REGARD TO COUNTING OF OBJECTS. WHEN YOU HAVE NOTHING TO COUNT,
71 THEN THE RESULT IS ZERO NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO TO MANIPULATE THE COUNT
72 OF ZERO. IT IS ONLY WHEN YOU DEAL WITH THE DESCRIPTIVE FORM OF THIS
73 THAT IT TAKES ON OTHER MEANINGS. I EXPECT I'LL GET JUST AS MANY
74 ARGUMENTS FROM THAT STATEMENT AS WELL. SO LET ER ROLL....
75 ******* CISTOP MIKEY ******* 5:18PM ******** 15 SEPT 83 **************
76 THIS IS A TEST OF THE AMERICAN BROADCAST SYSTEM.
77
78 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
79 IF THERE ARE TIMES WHEN A VALUE ENTERED IS ZERO AND THAT VALUE WILL LATER BE USED AS A DIVISOR, WOULDN'T IT BE
80 EASIER TO HAVE YOUR PROGRAM CHECK ALL VALUES TO BE USED FOR A ZERO VALUE, THEN ASSIGN THAT ZERO VARIABLE A NEW
81 VALUE THAT WON'T BE USED FOR THAT AREA (PERHAPS A -1), THEN CHECK AFTER THE DIVISION FOR NEGATIVE NUMBERS? OR
82 MERELY CHECK ALL DIVISORS FOR A ZERO VALUE BEFORE DIVISION TAKES PLACE, AND BRANCH TO A SUBROUTINE THAT WOULD
83 THEN SUBSTITUTE THE DESIRED VALUE FOR THAT ITEM (IN THIS CASE, 0). IS THIS A WORKABLE ARRANGEMENT?
84
85 [][][][][][][][][][][][]PAM.[][][][][][]
86 P.S. HELLO AARON..... COME IN AARON....... ARE YOU THERE AARON.....
87
88 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
89 TO PAM: THAT KIND OF THING WORKS, BUT IT'S THE SORT OF THING YOU DON'T
90 TO DO ALL THE TIME - WE WANT TO GET OUT OF THAT - THATS WHAT HIGH LEVEL
91 LANGUAGES ARE ABOUT - SAVING EFFORT.
92 TO MIKEY: I THINK IT'S INTERESTING THAT THE EXAMPLES WHERE 0=N/0
93 THAT WORK BEST SO FAR ARE INVENTORY AND RELATED CONCRETE EXAMPLES THAT
94 ARE VERY PHYSICAL AND REAL WORLD. ANYWAY, EINSTEIN DIVIDED BY ZERO A
95 NUMBER OF TIMES, ONLY TO BE 'CORRECTED' OUT OF BUSINESS BY MATHEMATICIANS
96 THAT HE DEFERRED TO ON THE BASIS OF THEIR EXPERTISE - MAYBE HE INTUITED
97 SOMETHING VALUABLE THERE.
98 TO DOM: WHAT ACUMEN. THAT BATS SEEM TO HAVE A NIGHT TIME QUANDRY VIS-A-VIS
99 THEIR CA-CA IS IN FACT ONE OF THE REASONS I CHOSE THE NAME. IT SEEMED
100 SO MUCH MORE TOO-TOO THAN SAY 'DONKEYDUNG' OR 'PASTUREPATTIE'. AS FOR
101 YOUR QUESTION I FEEL THAT AFTER A SHORT WHILE HANGING UPSIDE DOWN THE
102 POOR LITTLE TYKES MUST BE COMPLETELY CONSTIPATED. AND IMAGINE THE
103 PANIC WHEN THE FELLAS ON HIGHER PERCHES WAKE UP AND ASSUME THE VERTICAL
104 POSITION - THAT IS, UPRIGHT. REMEMBER THE OLD FIFTIES THING OF
105 TEACHING STUDENTS TO AVOID NUCLEAR BLASTS BY CROUCHING UNDER THEIR
106 DESKS AT SCHOOL? THIS ENLIGHTED GOVERNMENT PROGRAM WAS CALLED
107 "DUCK AND COVER". THEY SHOULD HAVE TRAINED US IN A BAT CAVE. YOU GET
108 IT???? HAR HAR HAR HAR.
109 TO DOM: QUITE A SCENTS OF HUMOR US BATS HAVE HUH, DOM? ABSOLUTELY TASTELESS!
110 TO PAM: THATS WHAT THEY MEAN WHEN THEY CALL US MEN UNREASONING BRUTES!
111 AND BY THE WAY, I'D LIKE TO TRY TO TALK YOU INTO 80 COLUMN LINE ENTRY.
112 I HAVE A HARD TIME READING LONGER LINES THE WAY MY TERMINAL WRAPS THEM.
113 SOME PEOPLE CAN'T READ THE LONGER LINES AT ALL. TELLING THEM TO BUY
114 BETTER GEAR IS NOT CONSTRUCTIVE. (I KNOW YOU DIDN'T DO THAT, BUT
115 SOMEONE SUGGESTED IT WAY BACK TWO OR THREE DISKS). HAVE MERCY ON THE
116 NEARSIGHTED - USE 80 COLUMNS - AND I'LL BEG MIKEY FOR A PROGRAM THAT
117 STORES 80 COLUMN RECORDS IN THE FILE TO GIVE MORE LINES PER DISK.
118 TO MIKEY: PLEASE NOTE ABOVE BEGGING
119 LONGWINDEDLY YOURS,
120 )))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))BATPOOP, the MAGNIFICENT++++++++++++++
121 TO: BATPOOP
122 I TOO AGREE ABOUT THE INTERESTING ASPECT OF THE ZERO THING. AS FOR THE ALTERNATE
123 SIDE, THE PROBLEM THAT I SEE IS THAT THE ENGINEERING TYPES RUN INTO A PROBLEM
124 FROM THEIR STANDPOINT SUCH THAT IF THE RESULT DOES COMEOUT ZERO THEN THEIR
125 ANSWERS WILL BE INCORRECT. IT WOULD SEEM TO ME THAT THIS WHOLE PROBLEM COULD
126 BE SOLVED BY EITHER 1.) FORGET THE WHOLE BLOODY MESS AND LET THE MATHMATICIANS
127 HAVE IT THEIR WAY. 2.) WRITE OUR OWN HIGH LEVEL LANGUAGE THAT OPERATES THE WAY
128 WE WOULD LIKE IT TO. 3.) SHOOT THE MATHMATICIANS. 4.) SHOOT THE BUSINESSMEN.
129 5.) SHOOT THE PROGRAMERS. OR 6.)CONTINUE TO SHOOT THE BULL....
130 AS FOR 80 COL.. SIGH.. I CAN'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT, I DON'T HAVE ACCESS TO
131 THE SOURCE CODE FOR THE SOFTWARE THAT ALLOWED THAT (NOT THAT I WOULD PATCH
132 IN THE 3K OF CODE AGAIN THAT MAKES BWMS DIFFERENT FROM THE ORIGINAL. I
133 CREATED BWMS BY REFERING TO A SIMILAR SOURCE AND DISASSEMBLING WHAT I HAD
134 AND THEN PATCHING WHAT I WANTED. I AM NOT EVEN SURE THE 78 COL SOURCE WOULD
135 RUN ON THIS PARTICULAR MACHINE. ANYWAY, EVEN GIVEN THAT, THE SOURCE IS BURNED
136 INTO 2708 EPROMS, AND I HVE NO WAY TO BURN THEM ANYMORE. AS FOR THE WAY DATA
137 IS STORED, IT IS STORED AS ONE LINE PER SECTOR ON THE DISK. WHICH IS A HARDWARE
138 LIMITATION. THERE IS NO OPERATING SYSTEM. WHAT YOU SEE 'IS' THE OPERATING
139 SYSTEM! RAM SIZE IS 1K EPROM SIZE IS 8K DISK SIZE IS 18 SECTORS PER TRACK BY
140 35 TRACKS WITH THE FIRST SECTOR RESERVED FOR THE SYSTEM (MARGIN INFO, LAST LINE,
141 ECT.) I DID NOT WRITE THE MAIN LINE CODE AND I TAKE NO CREDIT (OR DISCREDIT)
142 FOR IT. I AGREE THAT IT WOULD BE NICE TO CHANGE THINGS, BUT I AM LOATH TO
143 FOR BOTH THE ABOVE STATED REASONS, AND THE FACT THAT BWMS IS ONE OF THE MOST
144 RELIABLE COMPUTERS I HAVE EVER SEEN AND I REALLY DON'T WANT TO MUCK WITH THAT.
145 IF EVERYONE USES 80 COL MESSAGES, THE ONLY DISADVANTAGE IS THAT THE DISKS
146 WILL BE CHANGED FASTER. AS FOR ME, I ARCHIVE THEM IN CPM FORMAT SO IT
147 DOESN'T MATTER SINCE THE DISKS ARE RECYCLED AFTER BEING ARCHIVED.
148 ******* CISTOP MIKEY ******* 10:00PM ******** 15 SEPT 80 ***************
149 If I try to insult you, it's a sure sign that I like you.
150 If I can't insult you, it's a sure sign that you like me.
151 If I haven't insulted you yet, BE PATIENT!
152
153 ================================================
154 Besides the well-known /0, there are plenty of other mathematical functions
155 that can have illegal input. Trying to take the log of 0 or a negative number,
156 the arcsin or arccos of a number greater than 1, and some others. Most of us
157 don't deal in these things, so they aren't mentioned. But I think that we have
158 to provide for illegal operations.
159 For simple programs that input data, do only a little manipulation, and
160 then output the result, a no-error return of /0 might be visible and correctible.
161 But many programs take data from files, do extensive modifications, then output
162 the data to other files. Maybe never even seen by human eyes. In that case,
163 allowing an illegal operation could result in the contamination of large amounts
164 of data, possibly quite important. And even if you suspected an error, you
165 would have no clue where it happened.
166 A program is called 'robust' if it can be fed all sorts of nonsense
167 data, and operate properly on it. The consists of error checking and traps
168 to make sure that if Garbage gets in, much less Garbage gets out. Programs
169 needn't be robust if they are written by an individual for himself, since
170 he can control the data they are run on.
171 ==============================================P. V. Jeltz================
172 ^^-^^^-^^^^^-^^^^^^^-^^^^^^^^^^^-^^^^^^^^^^^^^-^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^-^^-^^^-^^^^^
173 D.O.M: Reguarding your example of the slope of a vertical segment,
174 That is not an example of 0,0 because slope is defined as dy/dx.
175
176 While there is a zero in the denominator, the value for dy is non-
177 zero for a segment or a line. So, you end up with a situation like:
178 5/0, 11/0, inf/0 (in the case of a vertical line), etc. These all
179 fall under the set of UNREAL numbers. The only example of 0/0 is
180 when dy=0 and dx=0 (ergo, a point) and a point can have any slope
181 you want to assign to it.
182
183 Alas, the time has come to leave your fair Inn. I must now venture forth into
184 the world of acadamia. To all of you, my thanks. To Aaron, Tron, Pam,
185 Charlotte, Batpoop, Master, Leonard, and even to (un)signed, and any one else,
186 I will miss your discussions. But my special thanks goes to Mikey and his
187 GREAT!!! system. To all, farewell.
188
189 P.S. I'll be around until Sunday, so if you want to make any final comments
190 about 0/0=R and the UNREAL numbers, hurry.
191
192 FAREWELL THE DOCTOR
193 ^^-^^^-^^^^^-^^^^^^^-^^^^^^^^^^^-^^^^^^^^^^^^^-^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^-^^-^^^-^^^^^
194 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~
195
196 Doctor: I was speaking, of course, in terms of conventional mathematics
197 (which everyone with the exception of yourself uses) by which any REAL num-
198 ber (zero or otherwise) divided by zero is undefined. Had I any desire
199 to take into consideration your "UNREALs", I would have no basis for doing
200 so, as you have made no attempt to define the operations which are legal
201 and closed in this group, nor the properties which govern them. By
202 "academia" I presume you are speaking of your first year of college. Per-
203 haps there you will have the opportunity to learn the basics of math-
204 ematics, if you concentrate your efforts on doing so, rathar than cor-
205 recting your instructors. I sincerely hope, Doctor, that you never get
206 your hands on a scalpel, but if you do, please employ it practicing surgery
207 on yourself, beginning preferably with fingerectomies (I suspect your ins-
208 structors will also recommend a toungue-ectomy). Perhaps I speak
209 to harshly, but I suspect that if your patience will endure a year at
210 Miscellaneous U, you will then begin to recognize your limitations, and
211 only then will you begin to learn.
212 GOOD LUCK!
213
214 Dirty Ol' Man
215
216 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~
217
218 Addendum: I just had to add this little semi-quotation of Anonymous
219 [formerly Signed (formerly Unsigned)] which more than adequately expresses
220 my point (although the exact wording escapes me):
221 "The more one learns, the more one realizes what remains to be learned."
222
223 Dirty
224
225 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~
226 As to checking for illegal entries & correcting or rejecting them, even this
227 is not always enough: no entry at all may cause trouble. A good example of
228 this failed one of our Venus rockets. Seems that the FORTRAN compiler the
229 program was tested on set variables to zero until used, but the compiler
230 used on the real thing didn't, leaving garblagage. The rocket crashed.
231 Nothing in, garbage out.
232
233 If the subject of ethics were to be brought up again, would everybody just
234 guano, or?? In particular, in the last 2 issues of Scientific American is
235 an article on cooperation vs defection (no, not defecation) If we all work
236 together we gain, but sometimes it benefits the individual who cheats more
237 than the cooperaters, and indeed a few defectors can destroy the whole thing
238 There are things that can be enjoyed by a few, but if all tried, itcould
239 not be enjoyed. A pie can only be sliced so thin. If the choice is logical,
240 all who choose logically will get the same answer, and so your own choice
241 is a valid example of everyones; this leads to being able to predict the
242 "best choice for all", it's the same as your own.
243 We will give one million dollars divided (not by zero, i hope) by the total
244 of all numbers entered, to the person who enters the highest number.
245 Unfortunately the numbers entered included things like 10^100, called
246 a googol, and 10^googol, called googolplex, and several like sums: the
247 winner would receive something so near zero the number can't even be written
248 what woulLd you try??
249 /////////////////////////////////BAD\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\<
250 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~
251
252 PAM: I have always assumed that you were (or should I say "are") of the
253 feminine gender. It has just occurred to me, however, that "PAM" could be
254 initials for a name, such as "Phillip
255 A. Morris". So for the record, could
256 you please fill out the following questionaire.
257
258 "PAM" is my:
259 name initials other NYDB
260 [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ]
261
262 I am:
263 Male Female Both Neither NYDB
264 [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ]
265 other
266 [ ] explain_______________________
267
268 I own a tobacco company.
269 True False NYDB
270 [ ] [ ] [ ]
271
272 (NYDB="None of Your Damn Business")
273
274 Thank you for your cooperation.
275
276 Dirty Ol' Man
277
278 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~
279
280 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
281 WELL, I SUPPOSE I SHOULD DEAL WITH THE COMMENTS IN THE ORDER THEY WERE
282 MADE. I ORIGINALLY USED 126 MARGINS FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THAT THEY WILL
283 SAVE DISK SPACE. I CAN UNDERSTAND THAT NOT BEING ABLE TO SEE THE ENTIRE
284 MESSAGE WOULD BE FRUSTRATING, BUT I MADE THE UNWARRENTED ASSUMPTION THAT,
285 SINCE THE MACHINE I AM WORKING ON IS AN INEXPENSIVE ONE, AND THE TERMINAL
286 PROGRAM PUBLIC DOMAIN AND VERY SIMPLE, EVERYONE ELSE WOULD HAVE SUPERIOR
287 MACHINES AND/OR TERM PROGRAMS. THIS LITTLE BEAST ONLY DISPLAYS 40
288 COLUMN, AND WRAPS AROUND THE REST TO THE NEXT LINE. SINCE IT CAUSES
289 PROBLEMS FOR SOME, I WILL USE 80 COLUMN FROM NOW ON (MUST KEEP THE
290 PEACE!!).
291 ON THE /0 DISCUSSION, SINCE YOU DO NOT WANT TO HAVE THE PROGRAM DO
292 THE WORK, WHAT ABOUT CHANGING THE SET OF CHARACTERS THE COMPUTER DISPLAYS
293 AND ASSIGNING NEW CHARACTERS TO THE OUT-PUT THAT GIVES YOU PROBLEMS? AN
294 INFINITY SIGN (OR SOMETHING ELSE) FOR /0, AN ITALIC i FOR SQUARE ROOTS
295 OF NEGATIVE NUMBERS, ETC. THE OS COULD THEN BE PROGRAMMED TO IGNORE
296 THESE VALUES ON OUTPUT, AND ASSIGNED TO THEM THE VALUES YOU WISHED, WITH
297 A FOOTNOTE MARKING SHOWING THAT THEY WERE SPECIALLY ASSIGNED VALUES.
298 1) MY 1st NAME IS PAM.
299 2) YES, I AM FEMALE.
300 3) NO, I DON'T OWN A TOBACCO CO., NOR DO I SMOKE.
301
302 HELPFUL? I'M NOT A COMPUTER PRO, AS I'M SURE IS OBVIOUS, THOUGH I
303 DO HAVE SOME MINOR EXPERIENCE. AND I'M OLD ENOUGH TO REMEMBER WHEN ONE
304 LEARNED TO PROGRAM A COMPUTER BY USING CARDS AND A CARDPUNCH, WITH
305 TURNAROUND TIME ABOUT 3 HOURS. TURN ALL YOUR CARDS IN, AND 3 HOURS LATER
306 THEY COME BACK WITH "SYNTAX ERROR LINE 5". AH, TIME SHARE AND MICROS,
307 YOU HAVE MADE LEARNING SO MUCH EASIER!!
308
309 [][][][][][][][][][][][][]PAM.[][][][][]
310 Ah shoot, PAM. Those revelations take all the mystery out of your presence!
311 What are you holding back?! Dreamer
312 ...........................?.............................
313 AS YES...THAT FEELS SOOOOOOO GOOD. DO IT AGAIN...AND AGAIN...AND AGAIN...
314 FASTER...FASTER...FASTER!!!
315 ANYBODY GOT A CIG?
316
317 }[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
318 WHICH REMINDS ME OF THE JOKE:
319 MAN TO WOMAN, "DO YOU SMOKE AFTER INTERCOURSE?"
320
321 WOMAN RESPONDS, "I DON'T KNOW, I NEVER LOOKED!"
322
323 BESIDES, THE MYSTERY IS STILL THERE. YOU STILL DON'T KNOW WHO I AM, HOW
324 OLD I AM (THOUGH YOU NOW HAVE SOME IDEA), OR MUCH ELSE. MIKEY KNOWS MORE
325 THAN ANYONE ON THIS SYSTEM, BUT HE WON'T TELL. AHH, MYSTERY!!!
326
327 [][][][][][][][][][][][]PAM.[][][][][][]
328 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~
329
330 PAM: GOOD GAWD! Your THAT OLD???.....
331 Just kidding. Actually, that doesn't narrow it down much. Believe
332 it or not, there are still schools that use batch processing via punched
333 cards. U of W for example requires the use of cards for their beginning
334 CS classes. I believe that PSU also did for some classes until recently.
335 Anyway, thanks for the above info. I am delighted that my original three
336 assumptions, premature as they may have been, were correct.
337 As to the two ongoing discussion of /0, one regarding mathematical theory
338 and the other regarding computer applications, I would like to address my-
339 self to the latter, as I am still awaiting a response on the former.
340 If I understand correctly what you (PAM) were suggesting, it would work,
341 and would probably be preferable to returning zero in most cases (with
342 the possible exception of business applications such as those previously
343 discussed [one must exercise extreme caution in what one says on this
344 system]), and in some cases even preferable to returning MAXINT.
345 There are some inherent problems, though. Although it has been a long,
346 long time (punched-card days) since I have used ForTran, I seem to recall
347 that it supports complex numbers. I am not aware of any basic interpretors
348 or compilers that do so, however. So, creatures such as SQR(-1) and
349 Undefined must be represented in memory as a string if they are to have
350 their own symbol. So the bulk of the data must also be in string format.
351 IN GENERAL (I stress these former words) numerical data is represented
352 in floating point format, so each number requires two bytes of memory,
353 one for the mantissa and one for the power of ten (simplified). In string
354 format though, a byte is required for
355 each character. So 132.56, for example, would require two bytes if
356 treated as a number and six bytes if treated as a string. Where division
357 is involved, you will almost inevitably have greater than two digits
358 to deal with, so the memory requirements would be much greater.
359 Also this data would have to be converted to numerical format in order
360 to perform any computations and prior to this it would have to be checked
361 for the non-convertable values SQR(-1)
362 and Undefined in order to prevent errors. All this manipulation would
363 take the computer about as much time as all this typing has taken me.
364 Pardon my lack of brevity.
365
366 Dirty Ol' Man
367
368 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~
369 Let's hear it for verbosity!
370 ==========-----------==========
371 HERE, HERE!!!
372 THERE, THERE!!!
373 WHERE, WHERE???
374 -------------------------------
375 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
376 WELL, IT SEEMS THAT WE HAVE A PROBLEM OF MATH, AND NECESSARY APPLICATIONS,
377 THAT CAN'T BE SOLVED WITH THE FORMS OF MATHEMATICS AVAILABLE. ARE YOU
378 PLANNING ON INVENTING A NEW MATH TO TAKE THESE PROBLEMS INTO ACCOUNT? IF
379 NOT, THEN AREN'T YOU PUTTING THE HORSE BEFORE DESCARTES?
380
381 ALL THAT FOR A LOUSY JOKE. SORRY FOLKS.....................
382
383 [][][][][][][][][][][][]PAM.[][][][][][]
384 Pam, using a special character like italic i for sqr(-1) is very dificult,
385 as most computers have no such character. In general (where have I heard
386 this before) the business computers have very simple graphics or none at
387 all since it wasn't considered useful. The home computers are more closely
388 related to video games, and are more modern, so they may have fairly good
389 graphics, but in contrast fall down in such things as memory or disc size.
390 This is changing rapidly, soon just abut anything will have graphics. Your
391 simple machine is likely more advanced than you think.
392 I still haven't seen any use for /0 , all comments have either been math
393 errors, or involved checking for 0, not dividing by it.
394 Dom, you asked about bat caves, and how bats excrete, soo If you are truly
395 dirty, you should love bat cave, they are the most disgusting things on
396 earth. Bats have the most parasites of any known species. Of course the
397 best (worst) caves harbor vampires, as GIGO , or as here liquid in, liquid..
398 you will never forget the smell, no matter how hard you try. I cannot
399 believe anyone who had seen and smelled guano would call himself after it.
400
401 Last night I noted the question of cooperating or defecting, and said it
402 was an issue of ethics. Since noone answered I will say we must stop all
403 defectors before they hurt us. We call defectors criminals, but in the USA
404 we have this funny idea about prior restraint, and punish crimes only after
405 they are committed. This is wrong: by the time we get around to punishing
406 someone for a crime, the law has already failed: the crime has been done.
407 Putting them ih jail afterwards only lets them learn from the older criminal
408 ///////////////////////////////////BAD 1739pm 16 sep 83\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
409 *******
410
411 _-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_
412 - Gee, all this discussion. Leave for a few days and what do I get? I missed -
413 - an entire disk of neat stuff! -
414 - Maybe a way of error-trapping zero would be for the language to start -
415 - out error-trapping zero and substituting some neat number (0 or infinity) -
416 - in place of the divide-by-zero problem. For those who want errors when di- -
417 - viding by zero, a command (NZT, No Zero Trap?) would be available to allow -
418 - divide-by-zeros to be error-trapped by the user. -
419 - By the way, what are you people out there using to pause output? Just -
420 - a bit curious.......................................................Pioneer -
421 -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-
422 Gee? just what could that be?
423 i rely do wonder hmm...
424 /.,
425 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
426 BAD, MAYBE I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE ASKING FOR. IF PUTTING
427 PEOPLE IN JAIL AFTER THEY COMMIT CRIMES IS WRONG, WHAT SHOULD BE DONE WITH
428 THEM? OR ARE YOU SAYING THAT PUTTING THEM IN JAIL BEFORE THEY COMMIT THE
429 CRIMES WOULD BE BETTER? HOW WILL WE BE SURE SOMEONE IS GOING TO COMMIT A
430 CRIME? I SAY THAT YOU ARE GOING TO ROB A BANK IN 2 WEEKS, SO LET'S PUT YOU
431 IN JAIL, OK? I JUST DON'T SEE HOW THIS WOULD WORK. COULD YOU GIVE US MORE
432 INFORMATION ON THIS.
433
434 [][][][][][][][][][][][]PAM.[][][][][][]
435 I see what he's saying. The answer is very simple. First, you make a tachyonic
436 memory device (TMD) which gives you a negative 100 nsec access time. Then
437 store and retrieve information on criminal behavior 1,000,000,000,000 times,
438 so you can predict a day ahead of time who will commit what crime. Lock him
439 up the appropriate period of time, and you're saved.
440 This, though, is like the old joke: How to be a sucessful millionaire? First,
441 get a million dollars. Sorry, but it seems old dumb jokes are the rage these
442 days.
443 Here's a new dumb joke.
444 There's these two white hoodlums, one of which has just stolen some
445 government-giveaway cheese from a black in the ghetto:
446
447 Other hoodlum: "What's that you got there"
448 Thief: "Some cheese I stole in the ghetto"
449 Other hoodlum: "What kind of cheese is it?"
450 Thief: "Nacho"
451 Other hoodlum: "How do you know it's nacho"
452 Thief: "When I stole it from the guy, he said "Hey, bro', dat's
453 na' 'cho cheese!" "
454 ()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()() P. V. Jeltz()()()()()()()()
455 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
456
457 The predicting-the-future bit reminds me of an old Asimov story called
458 "The Endocronic Properties of Resublimated Thiotimoline". Anybody read
459 that one?
460 /Elberich\
461 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
462
463 She walks softly yet stands proudly a beauty to behold
464 Her eyes look tenderly upon me
465 She speaks of love and happiness forever to hold
466 I turn speak of my love in return
467 Yet all I find is a steel door that is ice cold
468 I press on and pry open the door, for did she not speak of love?
469 As I open the door a fire from within engulfs me
470 and burns me to the floor.
471 Broken Heart
472 ***************************************************************
473 In recent years there has been a good deal of controversy regarding which
474 colour CRT ultimately produces the least eye strain on the operator.
475 At present, the display of 'light characters on a dark background'
476 predominates over 'dark characters on a light background'. However the
477 German standards suggest that dark on light is a better adaptation to
478 human capabilities and to the working environment, and strongly suggests
479 this for future CRT selections based on the following assumptions:
480 1. Unavoidable reflections are found to be less disturbing with dark
481 cahracters on a light background.
482 2. Less fatigue results from better match between luminescent levels of
483 document and screen.
484 3. The closer the luminescence of the screen is to the illumination required
485 for general office work, the lower the resulting eye strain naturally
486 caused between adaptation in looking from light to dark or dark to light.
487 4. Recognition of dark characters on a light background.
488
489 As a guideline, when displaying light characters on a dark background, the
490 contrast should range between 3 to 1 and 15 to 1. When displaying dark
491 characters on a light background, the luminescent level of the background
492 must be at least three times that of the characters. In any case, contrast
493 levels should be adjustable.
494 An excerpt from a paper on ergonomic design.
495 ********** CISTOP MIKEY ******** 17 SEPT 83 ********* 11:20AM *************
496 Congratulations, MIKEY: You have redeemed your tax-calculation error b submitting the ergonomic tips above. People,
497 does this suggest to you that the operator, having chosen the contrast setting, is thus the prime cause of his own
498 eyestrain? Gee, maybe this reinforces the notion that we, must face the consequences for our own acts, however trivial,
499 shunning the popular notion (espoused by schools, governments, unions, media, and societal lazies) that "whatever
500 disturbs me is someone else's fault, and 'They' better make it right" (whoever 'They' is)!
501 Silent Scribe
502 ###############################################################################
503 BYE
504
505 OFF
506
507 %#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#
508 A short note:
509 Computer languages have limited relationship to mathamatics....
510 Proof:
511 Watch a Mathamaticions eyes when he sees in a computer manual:
512
513 A = A + 1
514
515 I have seen one go into a long hold....
516
517 Computers are to be USED. If a hard definition for x/0 serves a useful
518 purpose, great! If someone says its illeagle, tell him to call tha
519 proper authorities.
520 the Phantom Glitch
521 p.s. how about a moment of silence for Osborne?
522 p.p.s. Kaypro is next....
523 #%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%
524 """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
525 HOW OLD ARE SOME OF YOU GUYS OR GALS ON HERE?????????????????
526 """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
527 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
528 - Poor Osborne - it looked promising, but didn't pan out... -
529 - To the above: I'm fourteen, young enough to want to talk about things and-
530 - also young enough to get bawled out for wanting to talk about things by my -
531 - seniors.............................................................Pioneer -
532 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
533 ?
534
535 WHAT THIS SYSTEM DO?
536
537
538
539 It sure is hard to tell all of the players without a program. Espescially
540 when the players keep changing their names several times on each disk! Even
541 so, the dialog here still makes all of the other systems that I use seem
542 backward, rigid, and artificial.
543 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
544 How about an opportunity for employment?
545 If you missed the ad in a recent Oregonian...
546 PGE is looking for a Communications Engineer to work in the Telecommunications
547 Department. We are looking for an all around sort of person with a background
548 in Electronic Engineering (and professional registration... or the capability
549 to be registered). Some experience in analog/digital design would be nice,
550 although this is not a major part of the job.
551
552 The primary responsibilities would be in systems level configuration of
553 telephone, data transmission, telemetry, mobile radio, and microwave
554 equipment. If you lke working on one thing for a month at a time, forget it.
555 Versatility is all-important!!
556 Familiarity with computers and power system technology would be great. An
557 FCC Second Class License (or the current equivalent) is a plus.
558
559 The working environment is mostly casual, but the ability to provide
560 services to other departments on a professional level is mandatory.
561 Compensation is very fair, and depends on experience.
562 Non-smoker definitely prefered!!!!!!
563 Contact Terry Conboy at 226-8384 between 8 and 4:30 M-F.
564 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
565 WELL NOW!
566 MIKEY - OK FORGET IT. I DIDN'T REALIZE THIS WAS ANYTHING BUT A STANDARD CPM
567 SYSTEM OF SOME KIND. AND IBM HAS ALREADY DONE WHAT WE WANT ON SOME MODELS
568 AND LANGUAGES - BECAUSE THEY HAVE THE MOST EXPERIENCE, OF COURSE!
569 WHAT IS THE SYSTEM YOU USE CALLED?
570 DOM - MAYBE IT WAS A TAD HARSH - MY OWN IMPESSION IS THAT MOST FIRST YEAR
571 MATH COURSES OR MATH COURSES OF ANY YEAR FOR THAT MATTER ARE DESIGNED TO
572 DRIVE CREATIVE PEOPLE AWAY FROM THE SUBJECT. AND THE ESSENCE OF BEING
573 A PEDAGOGUE IS THAT THE MORE ONE LEARNS THE MORE ONE THINKS
574 NO ONE ELSE KNOWS ANYTHING.
575 BAD - I PRESUME YOU MEAN BATPOOP AS OPPOSED TO GUANO - GUANO IS A SUBSTANCE
576 SOMETIMES USED FOR FERTILIZER, NOT ALL THAT NOXIOUS, COMPRISED MAINLY OF
577 *BIRD* POOP
578 BAD - I THINK YOUR IDEA IS BEING TRIED IN MOST OF THE WORLDS COUNTRIES
579 RIGHT NOW TO SOME EXTENT, BEING ESPECIALLY POPULAR IN THE COMMUNIST
580 AND OTHER TOTALITARIAN STATES. HITLER USED THIS SORT OF PREVENTATIVE
581 DETENTION ON THE JEWS, POLES, GYPSIES. HE HAD THE SAME IDEA YOU SEEM TO -
582 HE WANTED TO PREVENT SEDITION, AND HAD IDENTIFIED UNSATISFIED MINORITY
583 GROUPS AS ONE PLACE YOU GET A LOT OF SEDITION. REMEMBER ALL THOSE JEWS
584 LIKE EINSTEIN WHO DEFECTED TO THE U.S. WITH GERMAN SCIENTIFIC DATA IN
585 THEIR POSESSION. REMEMBER THAT INTELLECTUALS ARE OFTEN AMONG THE FIRST
586 TO BE IMPRISONED - AS THEY ARE OFTEN A DISSATISFIED LOT AND PRONE TO
587 ANTI-GOVERNMENT ACTS, TAKEN AS A WHOLE.
588 PIONEER - USE CONTROL-S
589 DOC - ADIOS - REMEMBER COLLEGE TEACHERS ARE JUST PEOPLE WHO NEVER GOT OUT
590 OF SCHOOL
591 DEAR SILENT - NOT ALL TERMINAL HAVE CONTRAST ADJUSTMENT
592 MIKEY - I HAVE WORKED A LOT WITH IBM 5211 TERMINALS WHICH GIVE YOU A CHOICE
593 OF LITE ON DARK OR THE OPPOSITE - I PREFER DARK ON LIGHT, BUT MOST
594 PEOPLE WHO USE THOSE TERMINALS REFUSE TO USE DARK ON LIGHT - SAY IT HURTS
595 THEIR EYES BECAUSE ITS TOO BRIGHT! DOESN'T MAKE SENSE TO ME, BUT....
596 PHANTOM - DULY OBSERVED - BUT WHY KAYPRO - THEIR SALES ARE ACCELERATING
597 AND THEY JUST WENT PUBLIC - YOU DON'T LIKE THE PRODUCT?
598 TO ALL: SHOULD WE GIVE OUR AGES? CONSIDERING ALL THE CHEAP SHOTS TAKEN HERE
599 ABOUT GROWNING UP, ETC I'M AFRAID TO TELL THE TRUTH - MY EGO MIGHT GET
600 SLAM-DUNKED ON THE AGE ISSUE AS A WAY OF RESPONDING TO AN ARGUMENT
601 ABOUT THE ORIGINS OF THE IBIS.
602 )))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))BATPOOP, THE MAGNIFICENT++++++++++++++
603 Mike, before you glorify the German standards on computers too much, consider
604 their placement of the all important return key: small and out of the way.
605 Dark letters on a lite background may be better in a brightly lit office, but
606 when I tried it here, it blew me away. I don't have enough control on the
607 contrast. The choice of lite on dark also has one other advantage: it is much
608 easier on the hardware. I like white, it seems many like green, but
609 beer bottle brown is very German. Any votes for red or violet?
610 As to preventive justice being totalitarian, does the current ratio of blacks
611
612 to whites in US jails mean anything to you? Or, since a man in the street with
613 a deadly weapon is perfectly legal, until after he shoots someone, of what
614 value is jailing him to the one he shot? There are far more honest people here
615 than criminals, the justice system should protect them.
616 Most guano in the US comes from bats: it may be just fertilzer when you see it,
617 but have you seen it where it grows?
618 //////////////////////////////BAD\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
619 TO PERSON USING CAPS ABOVE : YOUR NO FUN! HOW CAN ANYONE GET MAD AT YOU IF
620 ARE SO POLITE AND AGREEABLE?! GIVE US SOMETHING TO BE MAD AT YOU FOR SO
621 WE CAN ARGUE ABOUT IT......
622 TO: BAD THE KEYBORD STANDARD YOU SPEAK OF IS BUT ONE OF MANY. I DO NOT
623 AGREE WITH THAT PARTICULAR IMPLIMENTATION MYSELF. AS FOR MYSELF I PREFER
624 THE DEVORAK ARANGMENT, YET I CONTINUE TO USE THE OLD QWERTY KEYBOARDS BECAUSE
625 IT IS SO DIFFICULT TO SET UP AND USE THE DEVORAK. ALSO IT MAKES IT DIFFICULT
626 TO SWITCH BACK TO QWERTY WHEN YOU HAVE TO. MOST KEYBOARD DESIGNS ARE VERY
627 POORLY THOUGHT OUT. SUCH AS THIS ONE I AM USING HAS THE RET KEY SHIFTED ONE
628 KEY TO THE RIGHT. IT IS ALSO DOWN ONE FROM MY ADM3 WHICH MAKES IT REAL FUN.
629 *********** CISTOP MIKEY ******** 10:44AM ***** 18 SEPT 83 *****************