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LIST FILE ON MARGIN IS 80 STATUS: ALL ALLOWED NUMBER OF LINES: 616 1 If you are in need of help, you need but ask.... 2 ********************** REMOVED: 18 AUG 83 *************************** 3 Welcome to BWMS (BackWater Message System) Mike Day System operator 4 ************************************************************ 5 GENERAL DISCLAIMER: BWMS IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INFORMATION PLACED ON 6 THIS SYSTEM. 7 BWMS was created as an electronic bill board. BWMS is a privatly owned 8 and operated system which is currently open for use by the general public. 9 No restrictions are placed on the use of the system. 10 It is intended that the system be normally used for messages and 11 advertisments by the users. As the system is privatly owned, I retain the 12 right to remove any and all messages which I may find offensive 13 to me. Additionally because of the limited size of the system, it will be 14 periodically purged of older messages. (only 629 lines of data can be saved) 15 The saved information will be cycled to drive 'B' while the information on 16 drive 'B' will be archived, and a fresh disk will be installed in drive 'A'. 17 To leave a message, type 'ENTER' and use ctrl/C or break to get out 18 of the enter mode. The message is automaticly stored. 19 If after entering the message you find you made a mistake, 20 use the replace command to replace the line. 21 To exit from the system, type 'OFF' then hang up. 22 Type 'HELP' to see other commands that are available on the system. 23 ======================================== 24 25 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> 26 27 28 Oh sublime one! 29 30 31 Your passing has left this fair 32 inn without hope....Yet the news of 33 your return spreads quickly to even 34 such as our establishment,be it far 35 off the highway as it is... 36 37 38 Fill once again these halls with 39 your melodious voice,and grace the 40 patrons with your delicate beauty,so 41 as to revive these tired sectors to 42 their once lively and gay demeanor... 43 44 45 We can only hope that my humble 46 plea will not fall upon silent 47 print-heads,as we are desparate, 48 and you are our life-spring.... 49 50 51 52 Aaron of old..... 53 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> 54 55 56 F.O.A.D. AARON 57 60 What is this garbage about "the government did...."? In America who is the 61 government? It might be valid to say "an official of the government", or 62 better give his name. The government is not a single, monolithic faceless 63 thing, it is a large group of people, hired by people we elect. They are 64 (or can be made) accountable to US, the people. As to the article in the 65 paper, as I haven't seen it, I can't discuss it directly, but the comments 66 we have a "right" to study anything. Please quote chapter and verse in the 67 constitution, or applicable statutes giving this 'right'. Not everything 68 called a "class" is merely education, it could be so called to cover the 69 fact that it is an attempt to overthrough the legal government by force, or 70 a meeting of thieves. 71 ...Paul, my present photos are usually scenics or still lifes, with a large 72 dose of abstract, or things I consider beautiful, such as flowers. (Also 73 includes computer video graphics.) 35 mm strictly, usually slides. And you?? 74 /////////////////////////////////BAD\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ 75 Do we have a right to learn, or to be creative? Who owns ideas involved? 76 Case in point: a photo of a statue. Is the photo a 'copy' of the statue, 77 with rights to the sculptor, or is it an art form of its own, with rights 78 to the photographer, or is it the property of the subject of statue, or??? 79 How about using it to copy the statue for sale in competition with the 80 original sculpture? What if it is "altered" to show a "personal statement"? 81 //////////\\\\\\\\ 82 *************************************************************** 83 The Hoodview Amateur Radio Club will hold it's first 84 Hamfair/Computer Show Aug. 27 9-6 and Aug. 28 9-3 at MT. 85 Hood Community College. There will be comerical diaplays 86 food and swap tables (for radio and computer items only) 87 The admission is $2.00 ,12 and under free. Swap tables 88 are $5.00. For more information contact Bob at 771-xxxx 89 *************************Bob******************************** 90 91 92 F.O.A.D ? 93 94 95 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 96 97 HANLON'S RAZOR 98 Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. 99 100 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 101 /uN@@ 102 Well, elberich, you've done it again. To my comment, "forcing a minoriy 103 to cooperate in a venture of the majority" you said, "A better definition of 104 Democracy one could not ask for." Let's see, is this really true? 105 Consider this: Let's have a vote. The MAJORITY, the white guys, vote 106 to again enslave the MINORITY, the blacks. All fair and square, right? One 107 man one vote, right? After all, the blacks can participate in the voting, 108 right? And if they object, ask them why they don't believe in DEMOCRACY, right? 109 Or another vote. Let's vote on a NATIONAL RELIGION. Everybody has his 110 own vote, but when the tally is over, everyone has to adopt the chosen national 111 religion. No fair sneaking around worshipping another diety, anyone doing that 112 will be locked up for OPPOSING DEMOCRACY, right? You have to go to the chosen 113 church whenever they say, without fail. 114 115 While we're on the subject, let's have a vote on continuing Hitler's 116 escapades, and gas the Jews. Remember, we're gonna have a vote. (That's 117 democracy!) And what right do the Jews have to complain? They can vote, too! 118 And if they lose, too bad. They have to sacrifice for the majority! 119 120 What's wrong here? Why do each of the three preceeding votes precisely 121 satisfy your criterion for Democracy (majority vote) but are so clearly wrong? 122 After all, if we are to support democracy, it should have something to say about 123 the majority abusing the minority. But your definition doesn't even address 124 this question. 125 126 Until you are willing to accept the idea that the majority does not 127 have any right to coerce the minority on a large number of subjects, you will 128 continue to believe that it is right to tax people who choose to attend private 129 schools. As for the term 'knee-jerk liberal', while it may be accurate, I 130 hardly ever use it because most 'knee-jerk liberals' tend to think that anyone 131 calling them that must be some sort of conservative, and dismiss the description 132 as a poorly guided insult. Ironically, closest description of me might be a 133 'classical liberal', one who believes in the rights of the individual, and 134 not the state., or even the majority. A good current term for this is a 135 Libertarian. 136 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: 137 138 &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&& 139 OK Mr. Tax Rebel, what would you have our country do. 'Let's not have anyone 140 pay any taxes. Let's all live like good little citizens. Who needs government, 141 and all it does for us. Who needs police and roads and social security 142 and national security and fire protection and libraries and schools and 143 everything else our taxes pay for. You should feel damn lucky you can even 144 be saying some of the things you are saying. In many countries, such talk would 145 be deemed traitorious, and you would be sent to the lower parts of the earth. 146 You call paying taxes theft. OK...we get rid of taxes, and what happens, our 147 society falls apart. What do you suggest we do instead of pay taxes. 148 Let's play anarchy!!! everyone for themselves. Shoot you neighbor if he tries 149 to steal something you own. Come on Mr. Tax Rebel, lets hear your great 150 ideas. And no more ambigious statements like 'Paying taxes is like theft'. What 151 a simplistic way of putting things! 152 &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&& 153 154 to "============" 155 I read the article about the student arrests. Are YOU aware 156 of the fact that Khaddaffi (sp?) has been trying to get his hands 157 on a nuclear weapon for some time? The more I hear about him, the 158 more I suspect that he is trying his best to be another Hitler! 159 It may not have been "right" to arrest those students, but is it 160 "right" to teach them how to build nuclear devices or maintain 161 aircraft, if these skills may be used against us and our allies? 162 There are no easy answers to moral & ethical questions, if there 163 were we would have had the answers YEARS ago! 164 I suspect I know who the "TAX REBEL" is and thus I remeber 165 most of his comments from a series of disks on taxation about a 166 year ago. One thing I noticed is that one of his opponents said 167 "if they can afford to send their kids to private schools, then 168 they can afford the taxes". Well, I'm sorry but that is BULLSHIT! 169 You have what is known as "the deep pockets syndrome". They may NOT 170 be able to afford BOTH the taxes AND the private school. This 171 same syndrome is responsible (in part) for high insurance rates. 172 You know, tell the jury that the defendant is insured, and they'll 173 give HUGE awards. After all, everbody knows the insurance co. has 174 LOTS of money. This means that they insurance rates go up EVERY 175 time one of these outrageous awards is given. If you need a simpler 176 explanation: Just because someone can afford something you can't 177 doesn't mean his finances are unlimited! 178 Since the taxes in question are supposed to provide for 179 education, why not allow deduction of the money that will be 180 SAVED because the taxpayers kid ISN'T in public school? After all, 181 you did say something about "paying his FAIR share" didn't you? 182 As for DEMOCRACY, I recently read an applicable comment: 183 the main difference between democracy as practiced in America & 184 in the USSR, is that we recognize that the majority does not have 185 the right to oppress the minority. 186 Remember, we were set up as a REPUBLIC, NOT a DEMOCRACY. (not 187 the either term has a sufficiently precise meaning to be of any 188 use!) 189 Another justification for that tax credit: most private 190 schools seem to have higher standards (and to turn out "better 191 educated" graduates) than public schools. Since we all agree that 192 education is important, we should give the credit since this person 193 is making sure of a "better" education for his child. 194 195 If you want arguments for the opposing view, just check 196 the papers. 197 ___________________________________Leonard_______________________ 198 199 I am continuously amazed to find that others feel I should use 200 my hard earned money to support their favorite cause. Saying 201 that it is "My duty" to do so. Sir, I'll have you know that it 202 is NOT my duty to serve your causes. I sweat blood to get where 203 I am today, and I'll not have someone else take my hard earned 204 money and postion without a fight. I do not mind paying my fair 205 share for schooling of children, as long as it is FAIR! To say 206 that I should pay far in excess of what others pay for the same 207 thing I do NOT find fair! Yes, I went to a public school, and I 208 consider the tax I am paying to be just repayment for that 209 schooling minimal value that it was. Most of my money was 210 earned not as a result of that schooling, but rather was a 211 result of my own hard work and self study to get where I am. As 212 for your inuendo that unless I pour out all my hard earned 213 money for your cause that all the poor people in the world will 214 starve because I refused, you can take your 'guilt trip' and 215 STUFF IT. I will spend my money my own way for my OWN causes. 216 I earned that money, and I feel that I have a right to decide 217 how I spend it not someone else. You seem to think that just 218 because I have enough money to live comfortably that it was 219 handed to me on a silver platter. NOTHING could be futher from 220 the truth. As I stated earlier, I sweated blood to get here, 221 if you want to give money away sir I suggest you sweat a 222 little blood and make your own money to give away, but then 223 that would be too hard wouldn't it? You would rather sit back 224 and say how wrong it is for me to not support your cause. 225 @@@@@@@ An Irate Taxpayer @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ 226 @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ 227 228 ************************************************************* 229 Boy, I'll say he's irate! whewwww.... 230 **** CISTOP MIKEY STAYING OUT OF THE WHOLE THING **** 14 AUG 83 **** 231 ****************************************************************** 232 233 And now for something completely different....... 234 -----=====-----=====----- 235 The CORKBOARD BBS is up and running 236 in a test mode. If you remember the 237 NNBBS, it's us. Just a different name. 238 Right now, we are in a test stage...we 239 would like anyone who wants to to call. 240 The number is 654-xxxx. We got our old 241 number back because the guy who had it 242 before got tired of getting all of those 243 strange calls......??? 244 245 Well, give it a call, and see what happens.... 246 247 Signed, 248 Stan Dolson 249 Van Perley 250 ---Sysops 251 ================================================================================ 252 253 LENNY,LENNY,LENNY 254 255 256 IF HIS ROYAL INEPTIPITUDE KADAFFI WAS THE ONE ARRESTED I DON'T THINK ANY ONE 257 ON THE FACE OF EARTH WOULD WOULD COMPLAIN .... HOWEVER THE OBJECTION I RAISE 258 IS OGROSS GENERALITIES. IF THE STUDENTS WERE ARRESTED FOR SOME ACTIVITY 259 THAT IS DIRECTLY CONTRARY TO THE INTEREST OF OUR COUNTRY THEN LET IT BE STATED 260 SO.... NOT SOME NEBULOUS HOUSE RESOULITION THAT PROHIBITS FORIGN NATIONALS 261 FROM STUDYING SOMRE CURRICULUMS THAT COULD BE USED AGAINST OUR "NATIONAL 262 INTERESTS"..... THOSE TYPES OF ACTS REMIND ME TOO MUCH OF THE INTERNMENT OF THE 263 JAPANESE DURING WW II ....AND NOW ARE JUST MARGINALY ADDRESSING . 264 265 THESE OVER-REACTIONS IN THE NAME OF NATIONAL SECURITY MUST CEASE....OUR OWN 266 FREEDOMS MAY HANG IN BALANCE .... IN YEARS TO COME 267 268 THINK ABOUT IT.... 269 270 ================================================================================ 271 272 ATTENTION STAN DOLSON!!!!!!! 273 I called the Corkboard BBS and I couldn't log off! What you need 274 to do before you type an "AT H0", send a "+++" to the modem 275 first. This should correct your problem. Good luck and thanks! 276 277 Chris Bradley 278 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] 279 280 WELL, THE GREAT TAX DEBATE SEEMS TO HAVE DEVELOPED INTO A SITUATION WITH 281 2 SEPARATE CAMPS. THOSE WHO SAY "I'VE GOT MINE, JACK, SO BACK OFF!!!", 282 SAYING THAT THEY HAVE EARNED WHAT THEY HAVE AND EVERYONE ELSE IN THE 283 WORLD SHOULD JUST F*** OFF AND DIE (THE SELFISH ONES), AND A CAMP THAT 284 IS OF THE OPINION THAT THE HAVES OF THE WORLD HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY TO 285 THE HAVE-NOTS (THE GUILTY ONES). I DON'T THINK THAT ANYTHING WILL BE 286 ACCOMPLISHED BECAUSE THE TWO CAMPS HAVE TOTALLY DIFFERENT ASSUMPTIONS 287 ABOUT THE WORLD. THE FIRST GROUP FEELS THAT ALL ACTION IS BASED ON SELF 288 INTEREST, AND THAT NOTHING IS IMPORTANT OTHER THAN THEIR CREATURE 289 COMFORTS AND THEIR CUTE LITTLE BOTTOMS. THE OTHER GROUP SEEMS TO FEEL 290 THAT THOSE THAT HAVE ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THOSE THAT DON'T, AND ARE GUILTY 291 ABOUT IT. WHEN A PRIORI ASSUMPTIONS ARE SO DIFFERENT, A CONCLUSION IS 292 NOT LIKELY TO BE REACHED. MY IDEA? I THINK THAT BOTH SIDES ARE 293 PIG-HEADED. BUT, IF IT CAME DOWN TO IT, I THINK THAT I WOULD TRUST THE 294 GUILTY GROUP MORE THAN THE SELFISH GROUP. AT LEAST THEY SEEM TO HAVE 295 CONSCIENCES. THE SELFISH GROUP WOULD DO JUST ABOUT ANYTHING IF THEY 296 COULD BENEFIT FROM IT. SO C'MON, PEOPLE, LET'S HAVE A CHANGE OF SUBJECT. 297 298 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] 299 300 TO: '[][][][]' 301 A bit extreme don't you think? But basicly I would have to 302 agree with you that the two 'camps' are intractable. 303 Unfortunately, they tend to feed on each other, the more the 304 'have nots' complain about the 'haves', the greater the cry 305 from the 'haves' about the 'have nots'. I feel that both sides 306 have some degree of validity, but I myself if I had to choose 307 would probably go with the 'selfish ones' at least you know 308 what their motives are, and know what to expect from them. 309 ***** The In Sane Scientist ****************************** 310 311 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] 312 313 ACTUALLY, I DOUBT THAT ANYONE ON THIS SYSTEM COULD EVEN COME CLOSE TO 314 QUALIFYING AS A "HAVE NOT". THE USERS OF TERMINALS AND PERSONAL 315 COMPUTERS ARE GENERALLY WELL OFF, OR AT LEAST COMFORTABLE. I WILL SAY 316 THAT I'M SURPRISED THAT SO MANY PEOPLE WOULD DENY AN EDUCATION TO SOMEONE 317 THAT CAN'T AFFORD IT. I SHOULDN'T BE, THOUGH. IF THE SIXTIES WAS THE 318 DECADE OF "SOCIAL CONSCIOUSNESS", AND THE SEVENTIES THE "ME DECADE", THE 319 EIGHTIES SO FAR LOOKS LIKE THE "MINE DECADE". EVERYONE SEEMS TO BE 320 LOOKING OUT FOR THEMSELVES, AND WHO CARES ABOUT ANYONE ELSE. AND IF YOU 321 THINK THAT I'M EXTREME, LOOK AT THE AD HOMINEM ARGUMENTS OF THE ANTI-TAX 322 GUY ABOVE. NOW THAT'S EXTREME!!!!! 323 324 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][]PAM[][][][] 325 326 That depends on your view point, given the comments by the other side 327 of the debaters, I would have to say it sounds more like the 328 "GIMME DECADE". 329 @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ 330 331 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] 332 333 THE "GIMME DECADE"? YES, YOU'RE RIGHT. GIMME A CHANCE, GIMME A FAIR BREAK, 334 GIMME SOME OF THAT OL' ROCK & ROLL (OOPS, EXCUSE ME, I JUST CAN'T MAINTAIN 335 SOMETIMES). ONCE AGAIN, NOBODY IS SAYING "GIMME" AS MUCH AS THEY ARE SAYING 336 GIVE THEM. AS FAR AS I CAN SEE, NONE OF YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT A FREE RIDE, 337 OR WELFARE, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT A MINIMUM EDUCATION SO THAT THESE PEOPLE 338 CAN STAY OFF PUBLIC ASSISTANCE WHEN THEY ARE ADULTS. TO PARAPHRASE THE 339 COMMERCIALS, YOU CAN PAY FOR THEM NOW, OR YOU CAN PAY FOR THEM LATER. 340 341 [][][][][][][][][][][][][]PAM[][][][][] 342 343 STEWART'S LAW OF RETROACTION 344 345 It is easier to get forgiveness than it 346 is to get permission. 347 348 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] 349 350 Yes, that is the definition of democracy: vote of the majority. For REAL!! 351 We can afford to let minorities or individuals go their own way, though, 352 because we are very rich, and very law abiding. We believe that individuals 353 have rights, and vote (democracy, remember) to allow these rights. The vote 354 of the majority can remove the rights. We can do this because we can afford 355 to. A poorer society might not be able to afford it; in primitive Eskimo 356 culture, which was basicly communal, a shirker was simply frozen out of 357 society by being ignored. He could still take what ever he needed, but often 358 did not and just moved to another town. I would not want to bet on his chances 359 in a tight situation, because the community often couldn't afford to support 360 a drone. In the US we can afford deviations from the norm, and allow them, 361 within limits. Even here, though, if you get in the way enough, you will find 362 society against you. 363 As to the diference between "democracy" here and in the USSR, the diference 364 is that here it is real; while in the USSR, the vote is prerigged. When there 365 is only one name on the ballot, and only the votes for that one are counted, 366 a 99% turnout, with 98% voting for the only candidate doesn't mean much. 367 368 Kadafi? Megolomanic, surely. However, in which arab country do women vote? 369 Or go to real schools, or hold public office, or serve in the armed forces? 370 He is probalby better than most of what he is trying to overthrow. 371 No, I don't approve his methods. 372 373 All: please note the diference between legal and moral. 374 ////////////////////////////////////BAD\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ 375 -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_- 376 Personally, I think it's all a commie plot! 377 378 TRON 379 -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_- 380 PAM, I was trying to find some sort of middle ground in my comments 381 regarding a deduction/credit/whatever for putting your kids thru 382 private school. I STILL don't see how allowing the guy a credit 383 of the portion of his EDUCATIONAL tax bite equal to the portion 384 that would be paying for his kid (if his kid was in public school) 385 is "denying someone an education". If he can afford to put his kid 386 thru a private school, there will still be money left after this 387 "credit"! I am NOT saying that he can deduct the cost of the private schooling. 388 I'm saying he can deduct WHAT THE STATE IS SAVING because his kid 389 isn't in a public school. I do not believe that this has ever 390 been seriously suggested outside of the current discussions. 391 Most of the tax credit proposals you hear about are "tutition 392 refunds". My suggestion isn't. 393 BAD: try again, WE can't vote to remove peoples' rights 394 (at least not their CONSTITUTIONAL rights). The SENATE would 395 have to vote on an amendment, then if it passed the STATE LEGISLATURES 396 would vote on it. At NO time do the VOTERS get to say anything 397 about it. As I keep saying THIS IS A REPUBLIC! We have a lot of 398 democratic trappings, but when you get down to the nitty-gritty 399 were are NOT a DEMOCRACY. (If you read your history, and the 400 constitution etc, you will see that they never intended us to be 401 a democracy.) 402 To "======", that "vague resolution" went after people 403 learning aircraft maintenance & construction and NUCLEAR ENGINEERING. Or didn't 404 you read that far? By the way, these are FOREIGN NATIONALS we are 405 talking about, NOT US citizens, so your internment analogy doesn't 406 apply. Since I have not seen a copy of the resolution, I can't 407 comment on it, but what has been done so far does not seem to be 408 all that terrible. The students were arrested AND RELEASED. The 409 Immigration service seems to have avoided abuses, as far as I can 410 tell (or don't you consider the above-mentioned courses to be things 411 that we don't need to teach Khaddafi's subjects?) As to Khaddafi's 412 rule in Libya, remember he is (or was, my info isn't up to date) 413 sheltering IDI AMIN! Also remember that Chamberlain et al thought 414 that Hitler wasn't all that bad. 415 ______________________________Leonard_______________________ 416 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] 417 SOUNDS GOOD, LEO. I GUESS THAT THE EXACT DEFINITION OF WHAT YOU WERE 418 PROPOSING EXCAPED ME. YOUR IDEA SOUNDS A LOT BETTER THAN WHAT I'VE SEEN IN THE 419 PAPERS OR HEARD FROM THE MOUTHS OF OUR "LEADERS". AND WE SEEM TO HAVE 2 KIND 420 SHIRKERS. THOSE THAT CAN'T (OR WON'T) PAY THEIR WAY, AND THOSE (LIKE OUR TAX 421 REBEL) WHO FEEL THEY SHOULD BE EXEMPT FROM ANY TAXES OR OTHER RESPONSIBLITIES. 422 WHAT TO DO WITH SOMEONE WHO FEELS NO REPONSIBILITY TO SOCIETY? WE CAN'T 423 DO WHAT YOUR ESKIMOS DID. OF COURSE, THE I.R.S. HAS LONG ARMS, AND LOVES A 424 FIGHT. IF OUR TAX REBEL CARRIES HIS THEORIES OUT IN PRACTICE, WE 425 WON'T BE HEARING A LOT FROM HIM IN THE FUTURE. 426 427 [][][][][][][][][][][][][]PAM[][][][][] 428 429 &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&& 430 Again Mr. Tax Rebel. So you sweated blood to get where you are. And the 431 schooling you received was minimal eh? Well talk about BullShit! Everyone 432 likes to brag that they are selftaught. Everyone likes to brag that they 433 didn't learn much in school, but after school was over, they taught themselves 434 everything they know. If I have ever heard a crock of shit this is it. 435 Come on...get off this thing about schooling being minimal. And just what do 436 you consider fair in paying your taxes? What is your twisted definition 437 of fair? This I have to hear! 438 &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&& 439 440 Several of you seem to feel that any alternative to the current tax-support 441 process for public schooling equates to denial for certain classes of citizens. 442 Can't you imagine that a system can be found to indeed insure the opportunity 443 for public education for those who want it, without unduly burdening those who 444 choose another schooling method for themselves?! I still seek value for my 445 expenditures, whether taxes or discretionary consumption; if public education 446 is as good and as fiscally sound as it can be, then I have no complaint. 447 Otherwise, I want to help reform wasteful, non-effective teaching situations. 448 AARON: I applaud your observation on the importance of seeing government 449 services performed or botched by individuals, not by some nameless blob. 450 All policies are formed by people with names, all dollars spent, all discipline 451 meted out by individuals who, in my thinking, must be held accountable even tho' 452 they may be elected, or may be low-paid, or may be "political royalty". 453 SCHOOL DEBATERS: Thanks for your comments...they are grist for mental mills. 454 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dave ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 455 am I doing this right?? I mean I never tried this system before and personally 456 I don't like it. Why can't this system be like others?? pms or bit bucket are ea 457 easy to understand and easy to use. I don't like this system and I say a change 458 is needed. 459 460 $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ 461 WELL,WELL, 462 THE EDUCATION DEBATE SEEMS TO HAVE COME DOWN TO A DEBATE ABOUT WHO 463 SHOULD PAY. NO MORE WHAT,HOW, OR WHY TO TEACH. THINGS DO GERERALLY GET 464 AROUND TO WHO PICKS UP THE CHECK, DON'T THEY. 465 GIVING IT UP SEEMS APPROPRIATE TO ME. IT WAS FUN WHILE IT LASTED, BUT IT 466 SEEMS TO BE OVER. 467 GENETIC ENGINEERING MIGHT BE FUN AS A TOPIC, AS IT PROBABLY IS MORE IM- 468 PORTANT IN THE LONG RUN THAN THE CYBERNETIC REVOLUTION. AND POTENTIALLY, 469 GENETICS MAY HAVE MORE EFFECT ON THE INTELLECTS OF INDIVIDUALS THAN FIDDL- 470 ING AROUND WITH THE SCHOOLS. 471 TAXES WILL GO ON TILL YOU COUGH UP BLOOD, IF YOU'RE A "SUCCESFUL" AMERI- 472 CAN. THIS WILL NOT CHANGE. IT'S PAINFUL ENOUGH TO PAY WITHOUT HAVING TO 473 TALK ABOUT IT TOO. WHAT "SUCCESFUL" AMERICANS FORGET IS THAT THESE THINGS 474 ARE NOT ONLY DECREED BY THE GREAT NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE LESS, AND BY 475 THOSE WHO JUST LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE TO GIVE IF THEY DECIDE TO (THE GUILTY 476 ONES), BUT ALSO, AND ESPECIALLY, THEY ARE DECREED BY THE TRULY RICH AND 477 POWERFUL WHO USUALLY PAY LITTLE OR NO TAXES BUT WHO DO CALL MOST OF THE 478 SHOTS IN THIS COUNTRY. I AGREE THAT THIS IS NOT TECHNICALLY OR DE FACTO 479 A DEMOCRACY, BY THE WAY. WE JUST HAVE MORE INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS (MINORITY 480 RIGHTS), WHICH IS SOMETHING THAT PEOPLE CONFUSE WITH BEING A DEMOCRACY. 481 ACTUALLY, AS SOMEBODY ELSE POINTED OUT HERE, MAJORITY RULE IS OFTEN 482 THEN ANTITHESIS OF THE INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS THAT WE ENJOY HERE. 483 THE PERSON WHO WANTS DOCUMENTATION FOR EVERYTHING WILL BE DELIGHTED, 484 PERHAPS, TO KNOW THAT I AM ENTITLED TO THAT OPINION BECAUSE I JUST 485 READ "RATIONAL COLLECTIVE CHOICE" IN AUG 83 SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN, WHEREIN 486 487 THE AUTHORS CLAIM THAT YOU CAN'T HAVE A VOTING SYSTEM THAT IS RATIONAL, 488 DECISIVE, AND EGALITARIAN AT THE SAME TIME. 489 THIS MAY BE THE LAST REFERENCE YOU EVER GET. THIS ARGUMENT MIGHT 490 BE WORTHWILE AS AN EXCHANGE OF IDEAS, BUT NOT AS AN EXCHANGE OF PAPERWORK. 491 AND WHILE THE DEMAND FOR REFERENCES MAY BE A SHOW-STOPPER WHERE YOU COME 492 FROM, IT PROBABLY WON'T SLOW DOWN THIS GROUP EVEN A LITTLE, AS THEY SEEM 493 TO BE SMART ENOUGH TO KNOW THAT YOU DON'T RUN DOWN TO THE LIBRARY TO 494 XEROX A COUPLE HUNDRED BOOKS EVERY TIME SOMEBODY DOUBTS YOUR WORD. SO PISS 495 OFF. 496 I HAVE USED THE SOURCE, CIS, ETC LATELY AS A CRUTCH WHEN SOMEBODY 497 REALLY DOUBTED MY WORD OR OR POWERS OF MIND (HOW DAST THEY!) BUT I 498 GET ENOUGH OF A BET DOWN FIRST TO JUSTIFY THE TIME INVOLVED. THOSE 499 WHO WISH TO SETTLE ARGUMENTS BY SITTING IN JUDGEMENT SHOULD PAY FOR THE 500 PRIVELEDGE. 501 CHUCK 502 503 P.S. I'LL ARGUE ABOUT ANYTHING. ARE THERE ANY KINDRED SPIRITS HERE? YOUR 504 CHOICE OF SIDES. TROTSKY VS. LENIN, GOD VS NUTTIN SPOOKY AT ALL, 505 ARTISTS VS COMPUTER FREAKS, LO LO PRICES, NEVER GIVE UP UNLESS BORED. 506 REPOND RIGHT HERE PLEASE. UNLIMITED QUANTITIES. DO YOU HEAR ME OUT THERE!? 507 ----------------------------------------------- 508 Yes I'm still here ... been at the coast for a few days is all . 509 510 Genetic Engineering: 511 512 A Point of View. 513 514 To start I believe that GE should be given much more funding than its 515 being given now. The benefits in this line of research will be un-measurable. 516 Not only for the point brought out by Elberich earlier (super-plants), but 517 also for the aspects of our being able to control our own genetic destiny. 518 Also ... it would seem much more reasonable to me that the people 519 that form what 'watch-dog' committees 520 as are seen as necessary should be 521 of scientific backgrounds rather then 522 lay, or religious leaders that have no 523 real knowledge of what is involved in 524 these endeavors. 525 526 Hows that for a can of worms? 527 528 Paul 529 P.S. 530 531 To BAD: 532 I tend toward still-lifes and abstracts also ... have a hard time 533 with 'street' photography. 534 ------------------------------------------------- 535 536 To the one who used such foul langauge: 537 First, please note that I am not the one who refers to himself as 538 the 'tax reble'. Note that I signed my entry with 'Irate Taxpayer'. 539 Now that you are aware that we are two different people (Oh god no, 540 they're spreading!) A few points to make. First, As to schooling. Yes, 541 I consider my schooling to be minimal. It would have been far worse 542 had I allowed myself to follow the path they defined for me. They 543 were so busy generating 'average students', that they didn't have time 544 for my special needs. By the way, I failed fifth grade because of that 545 minimal schooling. The teacher was more intersted in showing slides 546 of his trip to Gaume then teaching class. I have a high school education. 547 (woopee) and yes, I did learn 90% of what I know outside of school. 548 They don't teach you how to run a business in public school. Next, as 549 to what I consider fair in taxes. Perhaps I can better state it by what 550 I consider NOT to be fair. I do not consider the taking of 50% of what 551 I make in profits to be fair. By the way that is AFTER I take all the 552 deductions. I would be extremely happy to only have to pay the 15% or 553 20% that you are probably paying (if its not less). To you and the others, 554 please note that I also did not say (In fact, I stated just the opposite! 555 I suggest you reread it.) that I did not support public education. What 556 I was stating, was that I do not feel it is my duty to support your 557 causes. I have my own to support thank you, and do not need you to tell 558 me what to do with my money. Maybe you consider it wrong to not give 559 away all my money, but I can't find a reason for it to be so myself. 560 As far as getting where I got by myself, yes I did do it myself. I might 561 point out here that I started life in a old beat up trailer that was 562 parked on some relatives land. I've been there, I know where of I speak. 563 Finnaly, as for use of my money, you probally don't care that because 564 of the bite that Uncle is taking out of my profits that I am not able 565 to afford to hire another employee despite the fact that I need one. 566 You see, I could provide a much better use of that money, I could hire 567 that person and get them off of unemployment. (Anouther tax I that I 568 have to pay by the way.) Which do YOU think is a better use of that 569 money? Giving it to someone to stay on welfare, or using it to hire 570 someone that wants to work? Since I doubt that I have convinced you of 571 anything, I will not bother returning here since I would have more 572 luck in talking to a brick wall in obtaining at least an intellegent 573 and reasonably respectable conversation. 574 @@@@@@@@@ The Irate Taxpayer @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ 575 @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ 576 T.I.T SEEMS TO FIT ! 577 578 579 WHAT BETTER ANAGRAM FOR SUCH A SAGGING THESIS ! 580 581 ********========---------=========********* 582 BRAVO IRATE TAXPAYER! YOU'RE RIGHT, THOUGH, THEY'LL NEVER ANSWER YOUR 583 QUESTIONS. I THINK THAT'S BECAUSE IF THEY EVER GOT INTO A SERIOUS DISCUSSION 584 OF TAX MORALITY THEY WOULD FIND THEMSELVES ON THE SHORT END OF THE STICK. 585 THE TAX SYSTEM IS IMMORAL FOR TWO REASONS: FIRST, IT FORCES PEOPLE TO 586 PAY FOR PROGRAMS/SERVICES/PRODUCTS THEY WOULD NEVER BUY IF IT WAS VOLUNTARY. 587 SECOND, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, IS THAT IT ACTS AS AN INCOME REDISTRIBUTOR, 588 ALLOWING A LARGE UNDERCLASS TO CONSUME AND NOT PRODUCE. IT IS QUITE UNLIKELY 589 THAT THE PRO-TAX PEOPLE WOULD BE SATISFIED WITH A TAX SYSTEM WHERE, ON THE 590 AVERAGE, A PERSON RECEIVED AS MUCH BENEFITS AS HE PAID FOR. IT WOULD STILL 591 BE IMMORAL FROM THE FIRST STANDPOINT, OF COURSE, BUT IT FAILS TO DO PRECISELY 592 WHAT THOSE PEOPLE WANT OF IT: TO TAKE MONEY AWAY FROM PEOPLE WHO EARNED IT, 593 AND GIVE IT TO PEOPLE WHO DIDN'T EARN IT. 594 AND IT ISN'T A MOOT QUESTION, ANYWAY. IT HAS NEVER BEEN ARGUED ON 595 THIS SYSTEM , AS FAR AS I CAN TELL, THAT THE ANTI-TAX PEOPLE WERE INFRINGING 596 ON THE RIGHTS OF THE PRO-TAX PEOPLE (FOR OBVIOUS REASONS), BUT IT IS VERY 597 PLAUSIBLE THAT THE PRO-TAX PEOPLE ARE INFRINGING ON THE RIGHTS OF THE 598 ANTI-TAX PEOPLE. 599 IN FACT, IT TENDS TO BE A COMMON MISTAKE OF THE PRO-TAX PEOPLE TO 600 BELIEVE THAT THE ISSUE IS GREED ALONE. IT IS AN ISSUE OF THE USE OF FORCE, 601 AND AS WAS SAID BEFORE, COERCION OF OTHER PEOPLE. RELIGION, SEXUAL PREFERENCE, 602 AND MANY OTHER ISSUES HAVE INDUCED COERCION IN THE PAST, AND THE CURRENT TAX 603 ISSUE IS JUST ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF HOW SOME PEOPLE WILL ATTEMPT TO ENSLAVE 604 OTHERS. 605 ___________LOOKING FOR A TRULY FREE SOCIETY________________________________ 606 607 Ahh yes, America, land of oportunity where anyone can make it. 608 So that those that didn't can take it from them. 609 610 ...................................................................... 611 Well, it looks like it's time to change the old disk again. 612 What will we see on the next one? Let's see, we've talked 613 about taxes, so maybe it will be that other sure thing death? 614 Well, what ever it will be, here goes a new disk for tyou all 615 to dirty up with your messages. 616 ****** CISTOP MIKEY STILL STAYING OUT OF THE WHOLE THING **** 15 AUG 83 *****