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Title: Co-operatives, conflicts and revolution
Author: Anarcho
Date: August 18, 2010
Language: en
Topics: cooperatives, conflict, revolution
Source: Retrieved on 1st February 2021 from https://anarchism.pageabode.com/?p=433

Anarcho

Co-operatives, conflicts and revolution

A few years back, I published a few articles in Freedom on raising the

demand for co-operatives in response to the economic crisis. These were

‘Bailouts or co-operatives?’ and ‘Co-operatives and conflicts!’

(although they appeared in Freedom slightly edited). The last was in

reply to another article on this subject, which was replied to on-line.

Somewhat belatedly, I now respond to the response.

The author, Joseph Kay, stresses “the importance of a comprehensive

discussion of a libertarian communist response to the crisis is

reaffirmed” and his reply had “the hope of clarifying some of his

misunderstandings or misrepresentations of my position and contributing

constructively to this necessary debate.”

First, he proclaims that his arguments are not contradictory, as I

suggested. He argues that there “is no contradiction here, for two

important reasons.” First, he “made clear in my article my objection to

a strategy of co-operatives is twofold” as “anarchist demands for

co-operatives are impotent, since we’re in no position at present to

force them.” However, my point was that his position was contradictory

because he argued that anarchists were in “no position to demand”

anything yet that did not stop him raising “Communist demands” in the

very same article.

It appears that Kay wants to have it both ways.

That was the contradiction I pointed to, suggesting that we are “no

position to demand anything” and then raising “Communist demands.” The

nature of the demands is somewhat irrelevant to the point being made.

Ignoring this, it is suggested that:

“Demands as to how capital is managed (by the state, by co-operative

workers associations) are meaningless without a workers movement strong

enough to impose them. But in any event they would not represent a

communist demand even if we were.”

Which suggests a shocking lack of understanding what capital actually

it. Capital is a social relationship within production, when capitalists

hire workers to labour for them in return for keeping their product.

Co-operative workplaces are not “capital.” To re-quote Marx:

“Let us suppose the workers are themselves in possession of their

respective means of production and exchange their commodities with one

another. These commodities would not be products of capital.” [Capital,

vol. 3, p. 276]

Now, it is asserted that co-operatives are “capital.” Are they? Well,

not if “capital” is defined as property used to employ wage-labour.

Perhaps Kay has another definition of “capital” and, if so, it would be

nice to see it defined. If it means “selling products for money” then

“capital” is no longer a unique mode of production. As Marx suggested,

“the production and circulation of commodities do not at all imply the

existence of the capitalist mode of production. On the contrary, as I

have already shown, they may be found even in ‘pre-bourgeois modes of

production.’” Specifically, when “the means of production and

subsistence, while they remain the property of the immediate producer,

are not capital. They only become capital under circumstances in which

they serve at the same time as means of exploitation of, and domination

over, the worker.” When the producer owns his “conditions of labour” and

“employs that labour to enrich himself instead of the capitalist” then

it is an economic system “diametrically opposed” to capitalism.

[Capital, vol. 1, pp. 949–50, p. 938, p. 931]

Key continues:

“Secondly even in the absence of a powerful workers movement, proposals

of what workers should do are not as impotent as demands over how

capital should be managed, because while the incumbent managers of

capital can only be swayed by force – that is by class struggle;

strikes, occupations and other forms of direct action – our fellow

workers can in principle be persuaded by force of argument, that is to

say by propaganda activities promoting libertarian communist tactics.”

Exactly my point, and why I raised the suggestion that workers facing

bailouts and closures should raise the demand for turning their

workplaces into co-operatives! As for occupations and other forms of

direct action, I suggested that in my first article:

“Of course, it is unlikely that any government will agree to such a

socialisation of companies. Unless pressurised from below, they will

pick bailouts or (part/full) nationalisation in order to keep capitalism

going. If ignored then people should simply socialise their workplaces

themselves by occupying and running them directly. Nor should this be

limited to simply those firms seeking bailouts. All workplaces in danger

of being closed should be occupied – which will hopefully inspire all

workers to do the same.”

Kay admits that “even if you think co-ops are a good idea, we’d first

need to get into a position to force them. Iain agrees.” So “it’s still

worth debating what demands we’d make with such class power as and when

it exists, as to do otherwise would be to assume failure from the

outset. Therefore it’s worth revisiting my criticisms of a strategy

promoting co-operatives.”

After quoting me, Kay suggests I am “presuming to know more about my

workplace than I do, one could answer this question by reading my

original piece!” I do know that feeling, given that I have to re-quote

myself here! He suggests that “if my work became a co-op we could manage

it differently” while, at the same time, arguing that “into a co-op,

those same market forces causing my boss to make cuts would still be

there, but we would have nobody to say no to when under pressure to

increase the rate of exploitation to survive in a hostile market.” So,

workers would both do what the boss would do and not do what the boss

would do. What is it to be?

It appears that Kay wants to have it both ways.

Now, Kay asks “[w]hat then are we going to take over and self-manage?”

As I made clear, the workplaces we are employed in. As I noted, this was

in relation to firms going bankrupt (or being offered bailouts, a

slightly different situation). I suggested that workers should seize

their workplaces and turn them into co-operatives in preference to them

joining the dole-queues. I would expect, as a libertarian, the workers

in these firms would decide what to do with them, not I (the workers

“self-manage”, after all). I would expect that many workplaces would not

just do exactly what they did before. However, the key point is that it

is a staggering lack of imagination to think they workers seizing their

workplaces and forming co-operatives would simply do exactly what they

did before.

I admit to taking it for granted that self-management would mean that

workers would question what they did and how they did it.

Kay argues that “a co-op would be faced with the same problem as the

boss, but would only have the option of managing it differently. The

same is true more generally for Woolworths or Zavvi workers:

co-operative insolvency is still insolvency.” So rather than seize their

workplaces, presumably workers facing insolvency should just, well, join

the dole queues? I’m not sure how that is particularly revolutionary.

I’m not sure how that will increase the confidence and power of our

class.

Kay’s opposition to my suggestion has been tried. All 807 Woolworths

stores were closed in the UK by 6 January 2009 resulting in 27,000 job

losses. Since then, there has been no generalised revolt against the

neo-liberal crisis. I wonder how things would have developed if these

27,000 people had seized their workplaces?

Kay suggests that occupations “may help prevent the administrators

selling off assets to pay off creditors instead of workers, and help

secure improved redundancy terms, but they can’t make a failing firm

viable.” Except, of course, that assumes that these co-operatives are

not inspiration to others to seize their workplaces, start to join

together and transcend a system which prefers insolvency to meeting

human needs? After all, while Woolworth as a capitalist company, with

debts, CEOs and stockholders to pay may not be viable, a co-operative

may not be. It seems strange that Kay assumes that a co-operative would

seek to repay all the debts incurred by its former owners.

Kay then shows his utter confusion by arguing that a co-operative would

see “a big increase in unpaid overtime by the workers providing the

surplus labour to kickstart the firm’s profitability”! In a co-operative

there is no “surplus labour” as the workers keep the product of their

labour. In terms of “profitability”, this is labour income we are

talking about. Profitability considered separately from “wages” (labour

income) is only applicable to a capitalist firm hiring wage-labour.

Ignoring that, Kay suggests that “even that unappealing prospect is

dependent on creditors and suppliers extending credit and workable terms

of trade to the illegally occupied firm, which seems about as likely as

Barclays providing mortgages to squatters.” And why would squatters want

a mortgage? But, yes, finding credit and contracts may be difficult but

that really makes being unemployed a better option? And the aim would

be, as I originally suggested, was to “inspire all workers to do the

same.” While capitalist firms may not wish to extend credit and

products, other co-operatives in “the illegally occupied” workplaces

will.

Kay suggests that arguing that co-operatives would act in the same way

as bosses would “is not an apology for capitalism” but rather “to

understand how it works.” Given that Kay seems unaware that without

wage-labour, capital would not exist this seems ironic. And talking of

ironically, he adds that “ironically, to claim that self-managed firms

are ‘socialist’ is much closer to an apology for capitalism than

anything I have written”! Wow. That means that Karl Marx was an

apologist for capitalism when he noted that in co-operatives “the

opposition between capital and labour is abolished,” they are “a new

mode of production” which “develops and is formed naturally out of the

old.” [Capital, vol. 3, p. 571] And if self-managed workplaces are not a

key aspect of (libertarian) socialism, then how is work going to be

managed?

Key suggests that “Bosses are not free, they must act broadly in

accordance with the market. They’re almost certainly not lying when they

say they regret making redundancies and the like, I’m sure they would

rather be taking on more workers and making more profit. Of course they

choose to lay off a worker on £15k rather than take a £15k pay cut

themselves, so yes ‘being a boss shapes any decisions made’ – as I made

clear in my article.” And so we have the wish to have it both ways.

Bosses are forced to act like they do (and so must co-operatives) while

the admission that they do have leeward in making specific decisions.

It appears that Kay wants to have it both ways.

Suffice to say, I did point out that the market does produce forces

which can make market participants (capitalist firms, co-operatives,

artisans, peasants, workers, etc.) make decisions they would sooner

avoid. That is why I’m a communist-anarchist, not a mutualist. As I made

clear in my second article:

“I stress that my suggestion was an attempt to bring a revolution closer

by encouraging direct action by workers – in other words, I am not

aiming for ‘workers’ control under capitalism’ but rather workers’

control (among other tactics) as a step towards ending capitalism.”

Kay argues that “if the resources are there to make less redundancies,

in what way is it more realistic to demand the boss surrenders his

capital to the workers rather than say forgoing some or all of his

salary to save jobs? What boss would rather surrender their capital than

take a temporary pay cut?” None, I would imagine. That is why I

suggested seizing the workplace would be a revolutionary act. As for it

being “realistic”, well, as they suggested in France, 1968: “Be

realistic, demand the impossible.”

Given this, Key argues that “if expropriation – which is what co-ops

represent – is on the cards, I’m sure the mere safeguarding of jobs

would have been on the table long before that.” In short, if workers do

threaten to seize their workplaces and turn them into co-operatives,

then the bosses would seek to safeguard jobs in order to maintain their

class position. Yet, apparently, co-operatives are only a different way

to “manage capital” so why would the capitalist class care?

Kay then states that it is “not that I think it would be a bad thing if

laid off workers occupied their workplace and tried to run it as a co-op

(a la Zanon)”! So why is he arguing against my suggestions? We have gone

from co-operatives are just another form of “capital” to “not ... a bad

thing”! I even pointed to examples like Zanon as an example of what I

meant (“As can be seen from the Argentine revolt against neo-liberalism,

the idea of occupation and co-operatives has mass appeal and can work”).

In short, Kay has just conceded the whole point of my argument.

So why the opposition? Because it is “not really on the cards given the

current state of the class struggle and the severity of the coming

recession.” There is no better way to ensure it remains off the cards

than by opposing raising it as a demand in the class struggle! And it

does take the biscuit to oppose a means of transforming the recession

into a revolution by arguing the “severity” of the recession makes

militant resistance difficult! It reminds me of those Leninists who

excuse the Bolshevik’s destruction of socialism in Russia by pointing to

the economic chaos there which socialism was meant to solve!

So this demand is unrealistic, in fact it is “far less practical and

realistic than demanding improved redundancy packages ... or no

redundancies at all”! Oh, right, workers should force their bosses to

keep their workplaces open rather the expropriate them? And how will

this capitalist make their workplaces profitable? If co-operatives will

be forced to maximize “surplus-labour”, what will bosses do? Oh, right,

appropriate and maximize actual surplus-labour! So it is more

“realistic” to demand the right to be exploited. And I as asked in my

second article, “Is he really suggesting that rather than expropriate

the boss, we just accept our P45s?” Apparently, yes, he is – along with

“an improved redundancy package”, if possible!

Now, do not get me wrong. Struggles for better redundancy packages and

no redundancies should be supported. Of course! But can we not suggest

something a bit more radical? Something which questions the right of

bosses to fire people in the first place? Something which questions

closing workplaces which could meet human needs because they do not make

enough profit? Suffice to say, it is not impossible to struggle for such

reforms while also raising the demand for occupations!

I must also note that these “Communist demands” would be acceptable to

many trade unions. They do not signify any real break with reformism. So

we find ultra-revolutionary rhetoric combined with reformist tactics.

However, Kay suggests that these points are irrelevant, because it is

“not something libertarian communists should be proposing as a strategy

given as if we’re in a position to expropriate capital, co-operatives

are a dead end for such militancy.” As I said in my second article, the

demand for co-operatives was premised as part of a goal to expropriate

capital, of achieving a social revolution! So, according to Kay, urging

people to expropriate capital is a “dead end” for the goal of

expropriating capital…

Kay suggests that “argued all this in my original article”, to which I

should note that I was “not sure whether Joseph Kay ... actually read my

article on co-operatives before writing his piece. I would guess not, as

it has the feel of a standard libertarian communist response against

co-operatives within capitalism.” I also suggested that he was covering

things somewhat irrelevant to the issue I was addressing. This still

seems to be the case, particularly as he has partially agreed with me!

He suggests that I “still hasn’t explained why co-ops are a more

realistic response to the crisis than struggles resisting cuts or

demanding decent redundancy packages – the kind of struggles that are

actually happening already.” As I said in my second article:

“And that is a key point. I never suggested that supporting

co-operatives was the only tactic we could make in the current crisis.

Far from it! ... So it is a case of co-operatives and conflict!”

And is calling for the expropriation of capital “realistic”? Not if we

accept what is acceptable to capitalism as our limits. Do not striking

workers always get told (particularly in a crisis) that their demands

and strikes are not “realistic”? And are not social revolutions always

unrealistic until they happen?

Kay suggests that I am “[q]uote-mining Marx does not change the fact

that there is money in motion, returning with a surplus (M – C – M’) –

the assets of a co-op do not cease being capital when votes are taken on

how they are used within a society of generalised commodity production

and wage labour.” Again, I will simply note that this utterly fails to

understand capitalism. He confuses surplus-labour with surplus-value,

the former existing in all societies while the later is dependent on

wage-labour. As Marx suggested, workers in co-operatives “have created

... new values, i.e., the working day added to the means of production.

This would comprise their wages plus surplus-value, the surplus labour

over and above their necessary requirements, though the result of this

would belong to themselves.” [Capital, vol. 3, p. 276] As workers keep

the product of their labour in a co-operative, they also keep the

products their “surplus-labour” creates. There is no capitalist who

appropriates their product, turning the surplus-labour into

surplus-value which they then own.

While Kay may not like what Marx wrote, it does get to the core of what

capital is. And it is not selling commodities, as Marx stressed time and

time again.

Kay argues that “there remains an imperative to accumulate with all the

drive to minimise the labour time taken to do a task this requires, even

in a co-op.” Very true, but it does not make it capitalist. After all,

slave owners (and both Marx and Engels noted) produced commodities for

the market but it did not make their mode of production capital. And as

I said, this issue is completely irrelevant to the issue I was raising:

“I had hoped that my article ... had made clear that suggesting

co-operatives was a short-term solution for those workers facing closing

workplaces or whose bosses are seeking bailouts. I did not address the

issue of (so-called) ‘self-managed exploitation’ simply because that is

a different question, relating to the issue of co-operatives within

capitalism and the future libertarian society. As my original article

addressed neither issue.”

Kay then argues that market forces ensuring co-operatives invest in

machinery “is why it is accurate to talk about self-managed

exploitation.” And as I noted, this is just confused terminology. There

is no “exploitation” involved, unless you also argue that the capitalist

exploits himself when market forces make him invest in machinery rather

than a new luxury car or villa.

He is right to suggest that I disagree, adding “it’s worth exploring

this point further, because it cuts to the heart of just what the

capitalist social relation is, and how to oppose it.” Given that Kay

thinks that “the capitalist social relation” is a product of commodity

production rather than wage-labour, this should be interesting. And how

do we oppose “the capitalist social relation”? Well, at the very least

by expropriating the capitalist and introducing associated

(co-operative) labour in place of wage-labour?

Kay then discusses how markets ensure that “the firm – as a

concentration of capital – has a logic of its own.” And so we have

“capital” postulated as something independent of the social relations in

production! Capital is simply machinery, in this view point, as the

“capitalist social relation” exists outside the firm. So capitalism is

no longer a mode of production but rather a product of market relations.

Which is wrong for reasons sketched above.

Kay also confuses “surplus” with surplus-value and I should note, a

communist society would also seek to re-invest “surplus” into “expanding

output and new technology” (true, not in order “to maintain or improve

its market position relative to its rivals” but that surplus will still

be utilized). After all, as Marx argued:

“Capital did not invent surplus labour. Wherever a part of society

possesses the monopoly of the means of production, the worker, free or

unfree, must add to the labour-time necessary for his own maintenance an

extra quantity of labour time in order to produce the means of

subsistence for the owner of the means of production” [Capital, vol.1,

p. 344]

Kay argues that capital “needs to be nourished by surplus living labour

or it will whither and perish.” The same can be said of any productive

system. The issue is how capital appropriates and uses surplus-labour,

not that surplus-labour exists and will be used. As Marx suggested, this

requires a proletariat – if workers possess their own means of

production then it is not capital!

Kay argues that pointing out that a co-operative is not capital because

it lacks capitalists “is an unnecessary personification of social

relations.” Well, what can I say? If workers keep the product of their

labour and so their surplus-labour remains in their own hands, then this

is a completely different social relationship than one in which a boss

hires then and appropriates their surplus-labour. Sure, it does not

matter if the boss is replaced by, say, the state bureaucracy but it

does matter if workers possess their own means of production.

Yes, identifying capital with capitalists can cause problems. So

arguing, as Marx once did, that “if one eliminates the capitalists, the

means of production cease to be capital” [Theories of Surplus Value,

Part 3, p. 296] raises an ideological blindness to what happens when the

means of production are nationalised and handed over to the state (as

can be seen under, say, the Bolsheviks). Marx, perhaps needless to say,

sometimes was blind to this, sometimes not. However, the

“personification” argument only applies when socialists talked about

replacing the capitalist with the state. Yes, indeed, the actual

capitalists have gone but wage-labour still exists but this time the

state bureaucracy is the employer. It is different when the workers

themselves possess the means of production.

Of course, commodity production will ensure that co-operatives will

adjust to the dynamics of the market. I’ve said that in my second

article, but that cannot be termed “self-managed exploitation” or

“self-managed” capitalism without hiding what makes capitalism a unique

mode of production. Somewhat ironically, Kay joins with the apologists

of capitalism in seeing capitalism wherever there are markets and

commodity production (“This is the reality of running a business, and it

exists independently of how that business is run (as a one-man private

tyranny, a Plc or a co-op”). Thus the co-operative, the artisan, the

peasant, the slave-owner are all capitalists as they all produce

commodities!

This reminds me of something David Graeber wrote:

“Almost immediately on jettisoning the modes of production model, once

die-hard Marxists began seeing the market, or even ‘capitalism,’

everywhere. Soon one had anthropologists like Jonathan Friedman arguing

that ancient slavery is really just a form of capitalism. One could, of

course, take the exact same evidence to make the argument precisely the

other way around, and argue that modern capitalism is really just a form

of slavery, but it never seems to occur to contemporary authors to do

this. When even Marxists are naturalizing capitalism, you know there’s

something seriously wrong.”

And:

“The idea that capitalism is as old as civilization is of course a

position long since popular amongst capitalists... The problem of course

is that defined so broadly, it is hard to imagine eliminating capitalism

at all.”

While I’m not surprised when supporters of capitalism make it a

universal feature of human history, but I feel anti-capitalists should

do better. And by ignoring wage-labour in favour of commodity

production, Kay does precisely that.

He accuses me of focusing on workplace hierarchy:

“Within the prevailing capitalist mode of production, the abolition of

the capitalist – that is, and individual personification of capital at

the level of the firm – does not abolish the exploitation of labour by

capital, that is by dead labour, which requires a surplus to sustain and

expand it relative to its rivals, lest those rivals expand and swallow

it up or force it out of business.”

Well, it is hard to know where to start with this confused jumble of

nonsense. Capital becomes “dead labour” and so a social relationship in

production between classes becomes a relationship with things. What is

unique about this mode of production becomes universalized into all

forms of commodity production, regardless of the actual mode of

production. Firms do need to make a surplus in the market, but that

surplus remains in the hands of those who produced it in a co-operative.

That market forces make them invest part of it into new technology and

machinery does not equate to exploitation of labour.

As I suggested, Kay’s analysis means that capitalists exploit themselves

when they invest their profits into new machinery rather than in a new

car.

In most theories of exploitation, surplus labour becomes “unpaid labour”

– labour which is appropriated from the producers by the owners of the

means of production. Such appropriation has taken many forms, depending

on the mode of production (slavery, feudalism, capitalism).

Under capitalism, it is used to produce surplus-value and is embodied in

the products created during this time of (unpaid) surplus-labour. It is

appropriated by the capitalist. Hence exploitation, with the capitalist

appropriating the (unpaid) labour of workers.

Under mutualism, in a co-operative, the producers themselves own the

means of production and so all the products of their labour. They sell

the full-product of their labour, including that produced by

“surplus-labour” (i.e., labour above and beyond their material needs).

This total income is then allocated by the workers between maintaining

their means of production, as income for the workers, investment and so

on. There is no “unpaid labour” and so no exploitation. In short,

“self-exploitation” and such like are confused and meaningless terms.

If quoting Engels is not too out of place, the “object of production —

to produce commodities — does not import to the instrument the character

of capital” as the “production of commodities is one of the

preconditions for the existence of capital ... as long as the producer

sells only what he himself produces, he is not a capitalist; he becomes

so only from the moment he makes use of his instrument to exploit the

wage labour of others.” [Collected Works, Vol. 47, pp. 179–80]

Kay argues that “by appealing to pre-capitalist artisan production to

explain why co-ops under capitalism supposedly do not involve the

exploitation of labour, it is Iain that is confused, and ahistorical to

boot.” Wow, but I am in fine company – I am merely repeating that when

known idealist Marx and his analysis in Capital! Talking of which, to

quote said book:

“In encyclopaedias of classical antiquity one can read such nonsense as

this: In the ancient world capital was fully developed, ‘except for the

absence of the free worker [i.e., proletarian] and of a system of

credit.’” [Capital, vol. 1, p. 271]

So apparently in communist articles we can now read such nonsense as

this: In a socialist society capital was fully developed except for the

absence of the proletariat!

He suggests that I commit “precisely the mistake I warned against of

focusing on capital’s vertical rule ... to the detriment of

understanding the horizontal rule imposed by the market.” Except, of

course, I explicitly argued that market forces are not what makes

capitalism capital, as that “confused” and “ahistorical” analyst Karl

Marx pointed out. To repeat myself:

“[Kay] is confusing the fact market forces would still exist and rule

workers’ lives (and this is a serious objection) with capital/wage

labour and so exploitation (in an anarchist or Marxist sense of

expropriation of surplus by non-producers).”

He, in short, confuses “the imperative to accumulate” with wage-labour,

with what makes capitalism capitalism. As for “extract[ing] a surplus

from living labour”, as noted that happens in all societies. A

co-operative will still produce a surplus over costs, correct, and some

of this will be invested in new machinery, but this is “inherent to any

firm in” the market, not “capitalism.” To confuse the market with

capitalism is what you would expect from an apologist for capitalism,

not a libertarian.

Acknowledging this, as I indicated in my second article, does not mean

what these kinds of expressions (“self-managed exploitation”) are trying

to describe does not exist. Far from it! Yes, market forces can and do

force co-operatives to allocate more to investment than their members

would prefer. Market competition can force co-operatives to work longer

and harder than they would like to survive economically. However, such

things are not “exploitation” as there is no appropriation of the

producers (unpaid) surplus-labour. The producers get paid for the

full-product of their labour, unlike under capitalism.

And, yes, co-operatives within capitalism can and do adjust to market

realities and so cannot reform capitalism away. I have never suggested

that they could. I suggested that expropriating workplaces and turning

them into co-operatives can help build a revolutionary working class

movement which could abolish capitalism.

Kay suggests that demanding co-operatives is an example of the

“anarchist tradition of myopically focusing on the hierarchical aspect

of the capital relation to the detriment of the horizontal.” Except, of

course, the “horizontal” aspect he points to is not unique of capitalism

(unless any commodity producing economy is capitalism, regardless of its

social relations in production). He suggests that we end up “championing

the bourgeois freedom of the market against the despotism of production,

which is its necessary counter-point.” Ah, what can I say? Anarchists

have championed the freedom of the workers. Some have argued that

involved markets (Proudhon, obviously). Others have not, that it

requires communism (Kropotkin, obviously). How production units work

together in a free society is, of course, a moot point and will be

decided, and evolve, according to the objective circumstances faced by a

free people and what they wish to achieve. I hope it will be libertarian

communist or, at least, progress quickly to communism. Suffice to say,

without workplace autonomy and federalism (economic liberty) it is

unlikely (libertarian) communism would function.

Kay argues that “Proudhon, Kropotkin et al at least had the excuse of

not having the wealth of hindsight now afforded us in the early 21^(st)

century.” Surely he must know that Kropotkin was against “freedom of the

market” (bourgeois or not)? As for the “wealth of hindsight” we are

afforded, well, I think that some have lost any insights into what

defines capitalism and instead conflates commodity production as such

with capitalism. Some also seem to conflate pointing out the difference

with supporting markets.

So, just to re-iterate, arguing that capitalism does not equal markets

(it equals markets plus wage-labour) is not the same as arguing that

market socialism (mutualism) is all we can aim or hope for. Nor, for

that matter, suggesting self-exploitation is a meaningless concept means

denying that markets can and do force people to act in certain ways to

survive in it. It simply means that terms like self-exploitation are

confused and hide far more than they describe. It leads, most obviously,

to denying what makes capitalism a unique mode of production.

Kay ignores my “army of authorities”, suggesting that “[o]f all the

logical fallacies one could expect from an anarchist, appeals to

authority are perhaps the most ironic.” Except, of course, I am using

these people precisely to show why attempts like Kay’s of conflating

markets with capitalism are flawed. He wonders “what bearing do the

19^(th) century political strategies of dead celebrities have on the

crisis today?” Well, perhaps we can learn from the suggestions made in

the past when facing a similar crisis today? Sure, this was “not

explained” but I took it for granted that would recognize the obvious!

Rather than being “expected to be wowed by their authority”, I had hoped

that those who confuse markets with capitalism and dismiss co-operatives

as part of the strategy for ending capitalism would question their

flawed assumptions.

Sadly I was proven wrong.

Somewhat ironically, Kay states that the “rallying cry ‘it is time to

give economic liberty a go!’ is precisely in this tradition – the

tradition of 19^(th) century small business socialism that was

discredited both practically and intellectually long ago.” Oh, right,

communism will not be based on economic liberty? What will it be based

on? One-man management? I doubt that Kay supports that, so I will assume

he also supports economic liberty rather than economic hierarchy. And I

should note that I find dismissal of the demand for “economic liberty”

surprising. To quote communist-anarchist Kropotkin:

“But ours is neither the Communism of Fourier and the Phalansteriens,

nor of the German State-Socialists. It is Anarchist Communism, —

Communism without government — the Communism of the Free. It is the

synthesis of the two ideals pursued by humanity throughout the ages —

Economic and Political Liberty.” [Conquest of Bread, p. 49]

The call for “economic liberty”, then, is hardly alien to libertarian

communism

— unless you equate, like the apologists of capitalism, such liberty

with

capitalism…

I guess that the use of irony would be lost on someone who calls Marx’s

distorted diatribe “The Poverty of Philosophy” a “demolition” of

Proudhon! Do I really have to point out that proclaiming the end of

capitalism as “economic liberty” was an ironic jab at those apologists

for capitalism who proclaim it that? Apparently I do… Just as I have to

point out that Marx’s book on Proudhon is riddled with selective

quoting, tampered quotes and a host of other intellectually dishonest

practices which would make anyone familiar with the material shudder to

see it invoked.

Sadly, Kay thinks that he has “addressed the more substantive matters at

issue.” I can only say, that he has just confirmed that he really does

not understand capitalism. He has simply repeated the tired old-clichés

which I hoped quoting Marx (etc.) would give cause for thought.

He also thinks I have made some “rather uncomradely accusations and

misrepresentations.”

Specifically, he objects to my suggesting that he was “seriously

suggesting that workers, faced with the closure of their workplaces,

should simply collect their P45s and head straight to the unemployment

office?” He objects that this is “a ridiculous insinuation, and one

(unsurprisingly) made without any quotation from my article.” Except, of

course, Kay strenuously argued that workers should not form

co-operatives when their workplaces are closed. I argued they should,

Kay opposed this. What other conclusion are we to draw?

Now it is a case of “nowhere do I oppose workers occupying their

workplaces or propose workers ‘simply collecting their P45s.’” Oh,

right, so why was Kay so against the suggestion that (and I quote my

original article) “All workplaces in danger of being closed should be

occupied – which will hopefully inspire all workers to do the same.”

What other conclusion can we draw? Somewhat ironically, he quotes from

his own article as evidence against me, without noting that I also

quoted that precise same sentence to show the illogical nature of

arguing against co-operatives while raising demands like “no to job

losses, wage cuts, public service cuts and evictions.”

So not only did I have the “benefit of actually reading my article

before responding” I actually quoted that sentence from it!

Kay does confirm a question I did have, namely whether he had seen my

article or not. He states that “our original articles were written

‘blind’, simultaneously.” As I concluded, his article was a standard

boiler-plate “communist” response to something I was not actually

discussing – namely building co-operatives to reform capitalism away. He

states he would “appreciate him withdrawing this charge, because it

makes it hard to have an honest discussion when you stand baselessly

condemned for things precisely the opposite of what you actually said.”

Except, of course, I was asking a question, not stating that this was

Kay’s opinion. I then addressed the illogical nature of opposing what I

suggested (co-operatives formed by workplace occupations) and raising

various “Communist demands” he raised.

Kay then states that “[w]orkplace occupations are indeed something I

support, my argument is that demanding they be turned into co-operatives

is misguided.” Now that takes the biscuit! So workplaces should be

occupied, but they must not start producing goods? Really? Kay then

argues that “[c]learly ‘revolutionary situations’ are not created by the

expropriation or workplaces so much as characterised by them.” What? So

when workers, say, occupied their workplaces in Italy, in 1920, they

were not creating a revolutionary situation? Really?

After a plug for the Solidarity Federation’s industrial strategy (which

I don’t disagree with), he argues that we “would certainly include

workplace occupations as an example of collective, direct action. But I

would see it as a mistake to encourage workers to try take over

businesses on the verge of going bust going into the worst recession

since WWII.” So, it would be a mistake for workers to seize the means of

production just as capitalism places the need for profits before human

needs? Does economic bad times really place libertarian communism off

the agenda? I doubt that Kay actually thinks this, although apparently

he thinks such calls are not “realistic.” I would suggest that by

raising this demand we make such an expropriation a little bit more

realistic.

Finally, he argues that I have “two assumptions unbecoming of a

libertarian communist.” He suggests that “the identification of state

funds with ‘our!’ money (exclamation no less!) requires an embarrassing

conflation of the population with the state” as state “funds raised by

taxation are no more ‘ours’ than my boss’ Bentley is ‘mine’, because tax

revenue represents the state’s portion of the surplus value expropriated

by the capitalist class.” Sorry, but no. Just as the bosses’ profits are

the product of our unpaid labour, so are the states funds. I think it

unbecoming for a libertarian communist to suggest that the boss and

state have a right to the surplus-value we produce. Call me old

fashioned, but I think surplus-value is the result of exploitation of

the working classes and that it is ours as we produced it.

And, really, to suggest that the state should not spend the money

produced by our exploitation bailing out capital is not “a naked

conflation of the population and the state.” Quite the reverse, as it is

reminding people that all wealth is produced by labour and that we (the

population) should own and control it, not the state (or capitalists).

Kay suggests that “it repeats the line of no less an exemplar of

bourgeois ideology than the Prime Minister, that the bankers are to

blame for the crisis.” Where did I say that? My original article was in

response to bailouts to the car industry in America, although I did

mention the finance sector in passing I also mentioned bailouts to

industry. So my fire was directed to all the capitalist class. Needless

to say, I did not discuss the causes of the crisis in my articles as

this was somewhat beyond their scope. However, I would suggest that “any

materialist, communist analysis of the crisis” needs to address the role

of “greedy or reckless bankers,” or more correctly the role of finance

capital in extending credit and so contributing to an economic crisis

with its roots in exploitation at the point of production. Suffice to

say, I did not suggest “the vacuousness of the notion bankers ‘got us

into this crisis.’” I actually wrote:

“Or that we should be indifferent when public (our!) money is used to

bailout the muppets who got us into this crisis to begin with?”

And, as I’ve indicated, my original article was driven by calls to

bailout the American car industry (although that was edited out, I

think, from what was in Freedom). Suffice to say, I did not limit my

article to just what was happening in Britain.

However, let us assume Kay’s position. State funds, like capitalist

profits, are not “ours”. As such, we cannot object when the state or

capitalist uses their surplus-value as they see fit. Thus, when state

finance is used to bailout capitalists we have no reason to object – it

is not, apparently, our money. Similarly, when a capitalist manager

decides to raise his salary from the profits exploited from his workers,

we cannot object — it is not our money. I’m not sure that gets us very

far.

I know that Marx considered such acceptance of capitalist property

rights as very “scientific” (unlike, say, Proudhon who rejected such

appropriations as theft of the workers’ labour). I’m not convinced.

Sure, the worker has sold his labour to the capitalist but that does not

mean that the surplus-value they appropriate should be considered

theirs. Far from it. And, after all, that was one of the reasons

socialism developed – to oppose the exploitation of labour, not accept

that such funds are not ours.

It is also somewhat strange to be accused to being a “populist.” After

all, the aim of my article was to present an argument to influence

popular demands and was written not to reflect the debates of political

activists but for the general public. As such, I explained the rationale

behind my arguments (with appropriate quotes) to show why co-operatives

are acceptable to those seeking the end of capitalism (as part of a

wider strategy, of course). If I had been writing an article just for

revolutionaries, I would have phrased it somewhat differently. Suffice

to say, if by “populist” it means trying to get your message across of

your fellow workers free from jargon then I would say my article was

that. I’m not really that interested in preaching to the converted and

discussing the finer points of what makes capital capital, how

surplus-labour becomes surplus-value, the confused nature of terms like

“self-managed exploitation” and such like. Practically, that would have

made my original article much longer and get away from the point I was

trying to make. As this article (and forums like libcom) shows, this can

be a time consuming process and one which would detract from the aim of

influencing the class struggle.

Kay states “in conclusion I feel Iain has failed to defend his

assertion,” although he has made it pretty clear that he does not

understand my assertion. He asserts that I “claimed – undoubtedly in

continuity with some in the ‘anarchist tradition’ – that running your

own business is a useful strategy in the class struggle.” Compare this

to what I actually suggested:

“Of course, it is unlikely that any government will agree to such a

socialisation of companies. Unless pressurised from below, they will

pick bailouts or (part/full) nationalisation in order to keep capitalism

going. If ignored then people should simply socialise their workplaces

themselves by occupying and running them directly. Nor should this be

limited to simply those firms seeking bailouts. All workplaces in danger

of being closed should be occupied – which will hopefully inspire all

workers to do the same.”

In my second article I repeated this:

“All in all, I feel that my suggestion for co-operatives as a practical

alternative for libertarians remains valid. Provided, of course, that

they are seen as one form of many kinds of direct action and solidarity.

Our focus should be, then, co-operatives and conflicts with both

supporting each other in an attempt to first build the revolutionary

workers’ movement we are sorely lacking and, ultimately, to abolish

capitalism!”

Yes, apparently this equates to “running your own business”! And he

accuses me of misrepresentation!

He continues with the inventions, arguing I have “demonstrated several

assumptions quite in line with bourgeois ideology.” First, “that the

market represents a freedom worth fighting for.” Now where did I state

that? I notice that no quotes are provided, unsurprisingly as I said no

such thing. He seems to confuse pointing out that markets do not equal

capitalism with support for market socialism! Second, that “state

finances are ‘our money.’” Yet as he admits, these finances come from

the surplus-value our class produces. So it is our money, just as much

as the surplus-value exploited by capitalists from our labour is.

Unless, of course, we workers do not have the right to the full product

of our labour? (I will note here that I’m sure this will provoke some

claim I do not desire communism). Third, “that the crisis is all the

fault of some banker ‘muppets’ and not rooted in the very contradictions

of capitalist accumulation.” Really, an off-hand remark in a short

article on another subject is taken as evidence about my understanding

of an economic crisis! I am impressed…

Finally, we have this wonderful contradiction. After arguing that

demanding that expropriating capital is not “realistic”, Kay ends by

arguing that “a libertarian communist response to the crisis is one

which increases the power, confidence and self-organisation of the class

to demand the concrete things we want from capital, and not one which

puts forward ‘realistic’ ways in which capital could be better managed”!

So demands that workers seize their workplaces and form co-operatives

are both unrealistic and realistic!

It appears that Kay wants to have it both ways.

And need I repeat that I’m all in favour of building the power,

confidence and self-organisation of our class. That is why I suggested

that workers facing unemployment seize their workplaces and that should

be used as a basis to expropriate all the means of production. I fail to

understand why such a strategy creates less power, confidence and

self-organisation than one which limits itself to demanding better

redundancy packages. Equally, expropriating “capital” can hardly be

equated to it being “better managed” – still that is apparently not

“realistic.” Our “Communist demands” must reflect “concrete things we

want from capital” rather than raising the possibility of going beyond

capital and no only having to “demand” things from it. Ultimately, what

we “want” cannot be got “from capital” – it can only be taken and urging

the seizing of workplaces and their transformation by associated labour

is a step in building a movement that can achieve this.

He argues that a “strategy of promoting co-ops and conflict in the

21^(st) century would have as much to do with communism – the real

movement asserting our needs against the present state of things – as

nationalisation and conflict had in the 20^(th).” So urging workers to

seize the workplaces being closed because profits are more important

than needs has nothing “to do with communism”? Really? What is? Well,

fighting for “improved redundancy packages” is more “realistic”!

Although, of course, actual examples of workers doing what I demand are

“not ... a bad thing”! While also, of course, also an example of “trying

to manage capital.” He is also keen to stress that he is not against

factory occupations, although he seems to be when I suggest that workers

do it. Perhaps it is the bit about starting to produce their own goods

he objects to? That would be wrong. Far better to be unemployed or

wage-slaves (“improved redundancy packages ... or no redundancies at

all”) than give a positive example that we do not need the bosses or

their system… You know, like the Zanon factory which he thinks is “not

... a bad thing”!

Still, I do feel that Kay really is not arguing against what I actually

wrote. He is arguing against his own assumptions. When he does address

what I actually wrote, he does see merit in my suggestions – which makes

you wonder why he objects so much to them. Perhaps it has to do with his

flawed understanding of capitalism? Perhaps.

He ends with:

“We have to learn to stop trying to manage capital and instead try to

fight it.”

I quite agree. My proposals were made in an attempt to bolster that

fight. Two years have passed since I wrote my first article. I return to

it now simply because I was unaware of Kay’s response. During that time

the economic crisis has rolled on, with the working class being made to

pay the price in a crisis rooted in an economic system based on the

exploitation of labour. I cannot help thinking if these workers had

fought capitalism by seizing their workplaces that the last few years

may have developed differently. Who knows? One thing is sure, we know

what happened when they did not.

To conclude, what have we learned? That we are “no position to demand

anything” and but that we can raise “Communist demands.” The workers

seizing their workplaces and forming co-operatives is both a “dead end”

and “not ... a bad thing.” That market forces would make co-operatives

both act like their old bosses as well as differently. That it is

“ahistorical” to point out, with that well-known philosophical idealist

Marx, that capitalism is a relatively recent development and not simply

commodity production (which has existed for thousands of years). That it

is not “realistic” to call for factory occupations as a means of

expropriating capital in an economic downturn but also that they “are

indeed something I support” when they are limited to demands capital

could grant without bringing the system into question. That the key

difference is that the demand “they be turned into co-operatives is

misguided” and that the realistic approach is for libertarian communists

to raise (the trade union friendly) demands of “improved redundancy

packages ... or no redundancies at all”!

So what is the conclusion? That workers should occupy their workplaces

but most definitely not seek to expropriate them. That would not be

realistic. Well, we had two years of Kay’s realism. The crisis has

spluttered on. We are paying for it. Would anarchists calling for

workers to seize their workplaces made much difference? Comparing the

Argentine revolt in response to its neo-liberal crisis and Britain’s, I

think it may have. Suffice to say, to dismiss it out-of-hand based on a

confused, flawed and ahistoric definition of capital shows the power of

ideology and how it can get in the way of developing revolutionary

theory and practice.