đŸ’Ÿ Archived View for library.inu.red â€ș file â€ș alfredo-m-bonanno-locked-up.gmi captured on 2023-01-29 at 07:17:53. Gemini links have been rewritten to link to archived content

View Raw

More Information

âžĄïž Next capture (2024-07-09)

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Title: Locked Up
Author: Alfredo M. Bonanno
Date: 2008
Language: en
Topics: prison, repression, abolition, Elephant Editions
Source: Retrieved on 2021-05-12 from https://archive.elephanteditions.net/library/alfredo-m-bonanno-locked-up
Notes: Original title: Chiusi a chiave : una riflessione sul carcere Allaria, [1997]. Elephant Editions 2008. Translated by Jean Weir

Alfredo M. Bonanno

Locked Up

Introduction

Prison has come out of the shadows into the limelight, as not a day

passes without some allusion to ‘solving the problem’ of the State’s

overflowing dungeons. Advances in surveillance technology are offering

alternative models of isolation and control that could see a large

number of the latters’ potentially explosive inmates defused

and—opportunely tagged or microchipped—sent back to the urban ghettos of

capital from whence they came. The main obstacle, bolstered by some

retrograde attempts to gain votes through a sworn intractability

concerning the ‘enemy within’, is power’s need for mass consensus from

those it had led to believe that the State’s protection racket and

promise of long custodial sentences were the ultimate social guarantee.

The dilemma has given space to a whole range of social cops in an

ongoing battle that the sycophantic media have not missed the

opportunity to illuminate. The occult world of prison never fails to

provide good headlines for those in search of a frisson, ‘enlightened

discussion’ or fodder for animated pub talk (the latter often concluding

with a call for the reinstatement of the death penalty).

In actual fact, we are witnessing the labour pains of a transitional

period concerning the whole question of sanctions and punishment in

accordance with the requirements of post-industrial capital. The reality

of enclosure, of being locked up in reinforced strongboxes for days,

years, decades on end, is truly in contrast with the prevailing model of

social democracy, which would prefer the perfect world of identity and

participation also for those who accept the prison condition as their

rightful penance.

And so once again, following the feminist issue, the work issue

(flexitime, mobility), ecology, etc., we come to the point where the

ever-adjusting requirements of power meet the solicitations of the

concerned left of the left, obsolete Stalinists and renegade

revolutionaries head on. Abolish prison! has become the slogan of the

moment, backed up with myriads of tomes, specialist theses on prison

conditions and alternative accountancies of crime and retribution worthy

of the fathers of the Inquisition.

Separation is the essence of politics, and by isolating prison from the

State and capital as a whole, the harbingers of social surgery can find

allies across the whole societal spectrum from priests to social

workers, university professors to ex-cons. There is an answer for

everything in the fantasy world of alternatives, every bad coin has its

flip side. But the totality of prison is is not simply a place, it is

also a condition, the antithesis of which is freedom. By the same token,

the absence of freedom is prison and only when we perceive the latter as

our own condition, realising that it is just a question of degree, will

we be able to enter the destructive dimension completely, without

measure. Only if we combine empathy with projectuality, disgust for the

institution and its putrid essence with hatred for the invisible

shackles that bind us all, will we be capable of divesting ourselves of

the viscid altruism that dams up the free-flowing energy of revolt.

Prison is not a domain reserved for ‘specialists’ such as those who have

done time themselves or have a particular rapport with individual

prisoners, it is the underlying reality of everyday life, each and every

discourse of capital taken to its logical conclusion.

The words that follow were spoken by a comrade in struggle, a struggle

where prison has always been present both as a grim reality and an

essential objective in the extensive destruction that ‘storming the

heavens’ implies. Little did he know as he wrote the introduction to the

Italian publication of the transcription from Rebibbia prison in 1997,

that a six year sentence awaited him as the outcome of the infamous

‘Marini trial’. It should not go unsaid that, after being presented for

public crucifixion as head of an inexistent armed gang, three of these

years were for a ‘crime of opinion’, i.e. for the written word, the

other three for an unsubstantiated accusation of involvement in a bank

robbery. But that is not what we want to talk about here. Neither victim

nor political prisoner, what follows are not the prison memoirs of

Alfredo Bonanno, but a contribution by a comrade among comrades, a

prisoner among prisoners, to a struggle that will continue until all

prisons are destroyed and not one stone of them is left standing.

Perhaps the transcription of a meeting between comrades with its subtle

tonal nuances, smiles, intensity and laughter becomes monochrome and a

little difficult to follow in the austere pages of a pamphlet. The tools

of the writer were aside in favour of the irrepeatable moment, the

unique encounter of mind and spirit that occurs between comrades when

they meet and talk face to face. The discussion meanders from an

immediate clarification that it will contain no vestiges of

specialisation, to various anecdotes illustrating some personal

recollections of life behind bars, to underlining precise tendencies in

the evolution of punishment, etc., all linked by one guiding thread: the

impelling need to destroy prisons along with the rest of the structures

of capital. Nothing less will do. No concession to the pleasure of

immediate gratification granted by success in single issue reforms. No

taking refuge in complicated specialist inquests for the initiated. No

negation of the individual in the name of ‘subsumption’. Prisons are

undeniably objective, material structures, but there are as many of them

as there are prisoners, because like every other moment of life in

society, prison is both a collective and a uniquely individual

experience.

One of the main themes of the discourse is the project of power that is

already underway—and would be much more so were it not for the problem

of mass consensus that needs to be re-educated to accept new repressive

trends—of separation between ‘irreducible’ prisoners and the others, the

ones that are willing to participate in their own ‘re-education’ and

re-insertion into the social marasmus. It is essential to grasp this

concept. As science gradually takes over the task of social control from

that previously carried out by law, a vast proportion of the prison

population will be created as a result of behavioural misdemeanours as

opposed to conscious lawbreakers. The latter will tend to become a

minority of irreducible ‘outlaws’ who are not prepared to obey the rules

of society, be they outside or within the prison walls. The great mass

of prisoners will be orientated towards re-insertion through

behaviour-modifying courses and alternative forms of control using all

the paraphernalia on offer by a proliferation of technological gadgets,

mobile phones, curfews, etc. For the rest, the intrepid ‘outlaws’ the

prison gates will be sealed for ever. And, to quell the weeping of the

abolitionists, these containers need no longer even be referred to as

‘prisons’. Some less offensive euphemism could be found in order to

remove them from the latter’s attention: a triumph for democracy and

reform.

The struggle against prison is therefore a struggle that concerns all of

us, not as something separate and specialised, but an essential

component of every struggle against capital and the State. The discourse

becomes comprehensible if we enter it as active participants, becoming

for a moment one of these comrades in that hall in Bologna so many years

ago, with pounding hearts ready to take on the world. Where are they

now? We don’t know, but we are here, and that is what counts. Let’s

destroy all prisons now!

Jean Weir

London October 2008

Introductory note

Prison is the mainstay of the present society. Often it does not seem

so, but it is.

Our permissive, educative society allows itself to be guided by

enlightened politicians and is against any recourse to strong measures.

It looks on scandalised at the massacres dotted all over the world map,

and seems to be composed of so many respectable citizens whose only

concerns are respecting nature and paying as little tax as possible.

This society, which considers itself to be far beyond barbarity and

horror, has prison on its very doorstep.

Now, the mere existence of a place where men and women are held locked

up in opportunely equipped iron cages, watched over by other men and

women wielding bunches of keys, a place where human beings spend years

and years of their lives doing nothing, absolutely nothing, is a sign of

the utmost disgrace, not just for this society but for a whole

historical era.

I am writing this introduction in Rebibbia prison and I don’t feel like

changing a word of the talk that I gave in Bologna a few years ago. If I

compare the thick headedness of the prison institution today with that

of my experiences recounted in the text published below, I see that

nothing has changed.

Nothing could change. Prison is a sore that society tries to in vain

conceal. Like the doctors in the seventeenth century who treated the

plague by putting ointment on the sores but left rats running around

among the rubbish, today, at every level of the prison hierarchy

technicians are trying to cover up this or that horrible aspect of

prison, not realising that the only way to face the latter is to destroy

it. We must destroy all prisons and leave not one stone standing, not

keep a few around in order to remember them in the way that humanity has

done with other constructions that testify to the most atrocious infamy.

Now someone who tends to beat about the bush will ask: how can we

destroy prison? How can we get rid of it completely in a society like

this, where a bunch of bosses called the State decide for everybody and

impose these decisions by force?

So, the best of these squawkers, the quick-witted with hearts of gold,

try to mitigate prisoners’ suffering by giving them cinema once a week,

coloured TV, almost edible food, weekly visits, some hope of being

released before the end of their sentence and everything else. Of

course, these good people want something in exchange. After all, that’s

not asking too much. They want prisoners to behave and show respect to

the warders, acquire the capacity to resist years and years of

inactivity and sexual abstinence, undergo psychological treatment by

specialised personnel and declare, more or less openly, that they have

been redeemed and are capable of returning to the society that expelled

them for misbehaving.

I have been a frequenter of prisons for more than a quarter of a

century, so can compare a few things. Once prisoners literally lived in

an infamous disgusting hole visited by rats and various other creatures.

They only saw the light of day for a few minutes, did not have TV and

could not even make a cup of coffee in their cells. The situation has

certainly improved today. Prisoners [in Italy] can actually make meals,

even cakes, in the cell. They have more hours’ recreation in a day than

they used to get in a month, and can have extra visits and make a few

phone calls to the family. They can work for a decent wage (half the

average wage outside), watch colour TV, have a fridge, a shower and

everything else.

Of course prisoners accept these improvements, they’re not stupid. And

why not. They also accept paying the price, by showing themselves to be

good and condescending, arguing with the guards as little as possible

and telling stories to the educators and psychologists who hang around

the corridors like shadows, waiting for it to be time to go home and for

the end of the month to pick up their salary. Apart from the obvious

consequence of lowering the level of the clash in prisons, nobody in

this scenario really believes that the prisoner will be re-inserted into

so-called civil society. It is a farce that each player recites

magnificently.

Let’s take the priest for example. If he isn’t stupid he knows perfectly

well that all the prisoners who go to mass go to meet prisoners from

other wings whom they wouldn’t otherwise see. He accepts that with the

hypocrisy of his trade and gets on with it. Of course, now and again

some prisoner will show a sudden faith, enlightenment on the road to

Damascus. But this, the priest knows perfectly well, is functional to

the treatment for getting out on parole or having a suspended sentence

or another of the many benefits provided for by the law but subordinate

to the approval of the custodial personnel, educators, psychologists and

also the priest.

What was clear when one was face to face with the police becomes hazy

inside. Today nearly all prisoners are losing their identity as such and

are accepting permissive changes that are gradually trapping them within

a mechanism that promises not so much to redeem them as to let them out

a little before the end of their time.

As the attentive reader of this little book will see, there is a line of

reasoning that claims to want to ‘abolish’ prison. Now, to abolish means

to ablate, i.e. eliminate, an essential component from society. Leaving

things as they are, this abolition would be impossible or, if it were to

come about, it would turn out to be in the interests of power.

Let’s try to go into this. The only way to do something serious about

prison is to destroy it. That is no more absurd or utopian than the

thesis that wants to abolish it. In both cases the State, for which

prison is essential, would have recourse to extreme measures. But

specific conditions of a revolutionary character could make the

destruction of prison possible. They could the create social and

political upheaval that would make this utopia come true, due to the

sudden absence of the power required for prison to continue to exist.

In the case of abolition, if it were to happen progressively it would

mean that the State was providing for prison in a different way. In

fact, something of the sort is actually happening. As I will show,

prisons are opening up. Political forces that were once quite cut off

from them now enter them regularly. There are all kinds of cultural

manifestations, cinema, theatre, painting, poetry; all these sectors are

hard at work. This opening also requires the prisoners’ participation.

At first, participation seems to eliminate disparity, allowing everyone

to be equal; it means that people don’t have to stay locked up in cells

all day and gives them the possibility to talk and make their demands

heard. And this is true, in that the ‘new’ prison has taken the place of

the ‘old’. But not all prisoners are prepared to participate. Some still

have their dignity as ‘outlaws’, which they don’t want to lose, so they

refuse.

I am not proposing the old distinction here between ‘political’ and

‘common law’ prisoners which has never really convinced me. Personally I

have always refused—and continue to do so now in the prison where I am

writing this introduction—the label of ‘political’ prisoner. I am

referring to the ‘outlaws’, those whose lives have been entirely

dedicated to living against and beyond the conditions established by

law. It is clear that if on the one hand prison is opening up to

prisoners who are prepared to participate, it is closing down on those

who are not and want to remain ‘outlaws’, even in prison.

Given the advances in control in society, the great potential of

information technology in this field and the centralisation of the

security services and the police, at least at the European level, we can

well imagine that those going against the law in the not too distant

future really will have the absolute determination of the outlaw.

We can sum up by saying that the project of power for the future is to

abolish the traditional prison and open it up to participation, and at

the same time create a new, absolutely closed version: a prison with

white coats where the real outlaws will end their days. This is the

prison of the future, and those who are talking about abolition will be

happy, in that in the future these prisons with white coats might not

even be called by such a hateful name, but rather clinics for mental

patients. Isn’t someone who insists on rebelling and affirming their

identity as an ‘outlaw’ in defiance of all propositions to participate

in society, absolutely mad? And do mad people perhaps not constitute a

medical rather than a penitentiary problem?

Such a society, having a greater capacity for social and political

control, would call for everyone to collaborate in this repressive

project, so would have less need to have recourse to sentencing. The

very concept of sentencing would be put in question. Basically, most of

the prison population today are people who have committed ‘crimes’ such

as taking drugs, drug dealing, petty theft, administrative offences,

etc., which from one moment to the next might no longer be considered

such. By removing these people from prison and reducing the probability

of more serious offences such as robbery and kidnapping through

increased levels of social control, few actual real crimes will remain.

Crimes of passion could very well be dealt with through recourse to

house arrest, and that is the intention. And so, who would remain in

prison under such conditions? The few thousand individuals who refuse to

accept this project, who hate such a choice and refuse to obey or put

themselves down. In a word, conscious rebels who continue to attack,

perhaps against all logic, and against whom it will be possible to apply

specific conditions of detention and ‘cure’ closer to that of an asylum

than an actual prison. That is where the logical premise of prison

abolition leads us in the last analysis. The State could very well

espouse this thesis at some time in the not too distant future.

Prison is the most direct, brutal expression of power, and like power it

must be destroyed, it cannot be abolished progressively. Anyone who

thinks they can improve it now in order to destroy it in the future will

forever be a captive of it.

The revolutionary project of anarchists is to struggle along with the

exploited and push them to rebel against all abuse and repression, so

also against prison. What moves them is the desire for a better world, a

better life with dignity and ethic, where economy and politics have been

destroyed. There can be no place for prison in that world.

That is why anarchists scare power.

That is why they are locked up in prison.

Alfredo M. Bonanno

Rebibbia prison, 20 March 1997.

Locked Up

Voici le temps des Assassins

Rimbaud

The prison question is something that anarchists and the revolutionary

movement in general have been involved in for a long time. We come back

to it periodically because for many of us it is something that touches

us directly, or touches comrades close to us, whom we love.

To know what prison is like and why it exists and functions, or how it

might cease to exist, or function better according to one’s point of

view, is no doubt a very interesting subject. I have heard many talks,

conferences and debates in the past, particularly about ten years ago.

At that time reality was seen analytically due to a certain marxism that

was boss of the political scene both culturally and practically, and the

main aspect of the debate on prison was the ‘professionalism’ with which

it was carried on.

One was usually listening to, or imagined one was listening to, someone

who knew something about prison. Well, that’s not the case here. In

fact, I don’t know all that much about prison. I’m not aware of knowing

much about prison and I’m certainly not a specialist on the subject, and

even less someone who has suffered all that much, 
a bit, yes. So, if

that is the way you see things, I mean from a kind of professional point

of view, don’t expect much from this talk. No professionalism, no

specific competence. I should say right away that I feel a kind of

repulsion, a sense of profound disgust for people who present themselves

on a particular subject and split reality up into sectors declaring, ‘I

know all about this subject, now I’ll show you.’ I don’t have that

competence.

I have had my misfortunes of course, in the sense that I first went to

prison over twenty years ago and, in fact, when I found myself locked up

in a cell for the first time I found myself in great difficulty. The

first thing I wanted to do was destroy the radio, because it was a very

loud transmission and after a few minutes locked up in there I felt as

though I was going mad. I took off a shoe and tried to smash the object

that was making such an obscene din. The noise was coming from an

armoured box screwed into the ceiling next to a light bulb that was

constantly lit. After a few minutes, a head appeared at the peephole of

the armoured door and said, ‘Excuse me, what are you doing?’ I answered,

‘I’m trying to 
’, ‘–No, that’s not necessary, all you have to do is

call me, I’m the cleaner, so I switch off the radio from outside and

everything’s okay.’ At that moment I discovered what prison was, and is.

There, that sums up my specific culture on the subject of prison. Prison

is something that destroys you, that seems absolutely unbearable, —‘how

on earth will I be able to survive in here with this thing driving me

crazy’
snap, a little gesture, and it’s over. This is my professionalism

on prison. And it is also a little personal story concerning my

imprisonment.

There have been many studies about prison of course, but I know little

about them. Bear in mind that these studies have not only been carried

out by specialists of the sociology of deviance, but even by prisoners

themselves, and funded by the Ministry. One such study concerns Bergamo

prison. I saw it and found incredible desire and capacity to do so, who

even manage to sell this nonsense off as something interesting. To me

this theoretical posing is nothing but sociological gymnastics.

The main supporters of prison, without actually realising or desiring

it, are the prisoners themselves. Just like the worker who sees himself

in the dimension of the factory, if he is a factory worker, or in any

case in the chains that hold him down. As Malatesta said, being

accustomed to the chains we don’t realise that we are able to walk, not

thanks to them but in spite of them, because there is something that is

unclear. Often, when talking to a prisoner who has done twenty, even

thirty years’ prison, he will tell you about all the woes of prison life

etc., of course, but you also realise that he has a love-hate

relationship with the institution, because basically it has become his

life. And that is part of the problem. So you realise that you cannot

work out a critique of prison by starting off from the ideas and

experiences that come out of it, because the experience is certainly

negative and full of repulsion and hatred of the place, but it is always

ambivalent, like all experiences of life. I have lived this myself and I

can’t explain how I felt it growing inside me. Human beings are not

automata, they don’t see things in black and white. Well, it happens

that the instant you get out of prison you have the sensation that you

are leaving something dear to you. Why? Because you know that you are

leaving a part of your life inside, because you spent some of your life

there which, even if it was under terrible conditions, is still a part

of you. And even if you lived it badly and suffered horribly, which is

not always the case, it is always better than the nothing that your life

is reduced to the moment it disappears. So, even pain, any pain, is

better than nothing. It is always something positive, perhaps we can’t

explain it but we know it, prisoners know it. So they are precisely the

first to support prison.

Then there is common sense, this massive stumbling block, that cannot

see how it would be possible to do without prison. In fact, this common

sense pushes proposals for the abolition of prison up a blind alley,

showing them to be ridiculous because such proposals want to have their

cake and eat it, whereas it would be far easier to simply say, ‘prison

is necessary in the present state of affairs’. How can I put the

jeweller’s right to safeguard his property before my right to take his

jewels at gunpoint, I who have no money and nothing to eat? The two

things are a contradiction. How can I overcome this contradiction by

putting it at the level of a universal contract or a natural right

desired by God, the Devil, Reason or Kropotkinian animism? The only way

to look at the problem is the elementary one: if all goes well, I take

the money, if it doesn’t I do my time. I have spoken to many robbers and

one of the first I met said to me, ‘Listen, you who can read and write,

take a piece of paper and do the sums. How much can I earn in three

years working in a factory? (At the time the factory wage was about 15

million [old lire] a month). And, he continued, ‘If I do a robbery and

it goes well I take more than 15 million: 20, maybe 30. If things go

wrong I do three years and I’m back where I started. Moreover, if it

does go wrong, I’m not working under a boss who drives me crazy for

three years, or in Germany, sleeping in Portacabins. I’m in jail and at

least I’m respected here. I’m a bank robber and when I go out into the

yard I’m seen as a serious person, not a poor sod that lives from his

labour.’ Frankly, with all my science, I was at a loss for words. What

he said didn’t sound wrong to me, even at the level of basic economics.

And what could I say? ‘But, you know, you can’t touch property’. He’d

have spat in my face! Or, ‘The scales are wrong, you must set them

right’, but then for him they had tipped the scales once and for all. As

Fichte, who knew something about philosophy, or at least he thought so,

said, ‘Whoever has been defrauded of what is due to him on the basis of

the social contract has the right to go and take it back.’ And he who

said that was certainly not a revolutionary or even progressive.

Common sense prevents us from imagining society without prison. It does

well, in my opinion, because common sense cannot always be ignored, and

a society under the present conditions of production, with the existing

cultural and political relations, cannot do without prison. To imagine

the elimination of prison from the present social context is a fine

utopia good only for filling up the pages of books by those who work in

the universities and write in the pay of the State.

The rest, in my opinion, is an absolute waste of time, at least for

those who understand anything at all. It might be that I didn’t quite

get these texts about abolishing prison. Yet I seem to have noticed that

some of the people who support abolition, whom I actually know, are the

same as those who once called themselves, I’m not saying Stalinists, but

at least supporters of the chatter of historical materialism on prison,

i.e. they supported the analyses of prison as a reality that is strictly

linked to production. These same people are for the abolition of prison

today because the current ideas are no longer Stalinist or authoritarian

but are of an anarchist or at least libertarian nature. Apart from these

people’s extraordinary capacity for political evolution, which never

ceases to amaze me, I insist that, in any case, concepts such as

abolition are still stupid, even if they call themselves anarchist. And

why not? Can anarchists not talk rubbish? There’s nothing strange about

that. There’s no equation that says anarchist equals intelligent;

anarchists are not necessarily intelligent in my opinion. I know many

stupid anarchists. And I’ve encountered many intelligent cops. What’s

wrong with that? I’ve never seen anything strange about that.

Yes, the concept doesn’t seem difficult because abolition,—at least as

far as I can see, but perhaps I didn’t quite get it, and we are here to

clarify our ideas—the abolition of part of something, is an ablation. In

other words, I take a part and cut it out. Society, of which prison is

an indispensable component today, should therefore take prison and get

rid of it like you do with a rotten piece of something. You cut it out

and throw it in the dustbin. That is the concept of abolition. Abolish

prison and put some other kind of social organisation in its place. In

order not to be a prison in all but name, it must not foresee sanctions

or the application of a sentence, law, the principle of coercion, etc.

What they possibly don’t want to see is the fact that abolition of

prison implies the upturning of the situation that is juridically

created between the victim and the perpetrator of the crime, the

so-called guilty party. Today, a separation is between the victim and

the guilty one is carried out, and with prison this separation becomes

clear. Victim and guilty party must never meet again, in fact they will

forever avoid each other. I will certainly never go to Bergamo to look

for the jeweller whose shop I robbed. He would call the police as soon

as he saw me, there’s no doubt about that.

What happens in the case of abolition? The two protagonists of the

‘illegal’ deed are not kept apart, on the contrary they are put in

contact through negotiation. For example, they establish what the

damages amount to together and instead of going to prison the person

responsible for the ‘illegal’ deed pledges to repay the damage, in money

or through work. For example, it seems that there are people who are

happy to have their houses painted, I don’t know, that sort of thing. In

my opinion, these absurdities start off from a philosophical principle

that is quite different to that envisaged by the law.

The separation of the ‘guilty party’ from the ‘victim’ also depends on

the specific situation, except in cases where this was caused by passion

or uncontrollable emotions. In most cases, not only does the guilty one

try to escape to save the booty or his skin, he also tries to have as

little contact with the victim as possible. Then there is the other

aspect of separation, that which is institutionalised by the

intervention of the judge, the lawyer, the court, the prison. So, not

only separation from the victim but also from society, with the

aftermath of the particular attention paid to re-entry into society. In

order to avoid too brusque a contact there are often precise police

practices: you leave prison, the police patrol picks you up immediately

and takes you off to the police station, and you are identified again.

You are free because you have finished your sentence, but they are not

satisfied. Hence the expulsion orders from certain towns, etc.

Abolition does not foresee any of this. It is a more complex concept,

and cannot be grasped immediately. But there remains this curious

logical anomaly: in theory ablation is possible, in practice it is

impossible in a social context where prison is obviously an essential

component.

The destruction of prison, on the other hand, clearly linked to the

revolutionary concept of destruction of the State, exists within a

process of struggle. In order for what we said earlier to be fully

understood, our discourse must not be based on models of efficiency, as

that would distort it. The struggles we participate in and their

consequences can never be seen as getting something in exchange for what

we do, of necessarily getting results from what we put on the carpet. On

the contrary, we are often unable to see the consequences of the

struggles we participate in, there is a very wide relational dispersion

and the end results cannot be foreseen. We have no idea what might

happen as far as other people active in the struggle are concerned,

comrades doing different things, changes in relations, changes in

awareness, etc. All of these things come later, when we think everything

is over.

We are having this discussion here tonight, and for me this is also

struggle....Because it is not enough for me just to talk for the

pleasure of hearing my own voice, and I am convinced that some new ideas

are entering your heads, just as I am experiencing the joy of being here

and feeling your physical presence. We are talking about something close

to my heart and I will take this gift you are giving me away with me.

Just as I think I can give you something to take away with you that

might bear fruit at some time in the future, in another situation,

another context. And that has nothing to do with quantity or efficiency.

If it means anything at all it means something in practice, in the

things we do, in the transformation we bring about, not in the abstract

realm of theory or utopia. That is what I am trying to say about the

destruction of prison. Because as soon as we put ourselves in this logic

and begin to act, even in discussions like this evening, or with other

things that we won’t discuss here but could go into tomorrow or at some

time in the near future, we begin to transform reality. Prison becomes

one element of this transformation, and by transformation we mean

destruction—partial destruction in view of the final destruction of the

State. I am aware that this concept might seem too rash or too

philosophical. But as soon as we start to think about it becomes clear

because it becomes a basis for all the actions we carry out every day

and for the way we behave with those close to us, those we relate to and

who put up with us every day, as well as those whom we see from time to

time.

The revolutionary project is also this. There is no such thing as

separate worlds, the world I live with my companion, with my children,

with the few revolutionary comrades I have met in my life who want to

overturn the world, all absolutely separate. That’s not so, it’s not

like that. If I am a bastard in my sexual relations, I cannot be a

revolutionary, because these relations immediately transfer themselves

into the wider context. I might fool one, two, three people, then the

fourth will take me to task and I can’t deceive them. There must

necessarily be unity of intent, that elective affinity that links me to

all my actions, in any context whatsoever, in everything I do, which I

cannot separate.. If I am a bastard, it will come out sooner or later.

But let’s get back to our argument which we seem to have left a long way

off.

Let’s look at the whole question of prison, the sentence, the judiciary

that supports and makes the sentence possible, and I think that most of

you here know more about this than me.

I think it would be good if we were to agree on a very simple line of

thought: the concept of the sentence is based on one essential

principle— the privation that a given person suffers for not having

behaved according to pre-established rules. Now, if we look carefully

here, we see that this concept applies to many things, even

interpersonal relations. But it only concerns particular sanctions when

one finds oneself faced with the law, a State structure that is capable

of enforcing the sanction according to pre-established rules, or at

least within the ambit of these rules.

What does the State want from the sentence? Not just the State today,

which we know to some extent, but the State in general as it has

developed over at least the past three hundred years. What does Power,

which has not always defined itself the State, want to attain? In the

first place it wants to make the so-called guilty party submit to a

higher level of physical control than is usual in the so-called free

society.

I repeat, I don’t have any specific competency in this field but from

what I have read, and it isn’t much and perhaps not even up to date, the

process of control is now mainly entrusted to information technology,

data gathering, etc. Basically, the universal recording of our details

that is being carried out by the authorities (for example I have seen

that they are even filing us through our electricity bills) is, so to

speak, a roundup strategy that will end up netting all the fish, so only

a few will manage to escape. But this filing is only an approximation.

Some countries are far ahead in this field, with very efficient

procedures, yet even in these countries there is still some space for

extra-legal, even if not exactly ‘outlaw’, activity in concrete terms.

The project of power is certainly omnipresent and intends to include

everyone in this data gathering. The more effective preventive control

is, the more the State becomes boss of the territory. It is no

coincidence, for example, that there is so much talk about the Mafia, to

the point of overstepping the boundaries between myth and reality, where

it is not clear where one begins and the other ends. I don’t know if

it’s worth going into this question which, although fascinating, is not

very important in my opinion. However, there can be little doubt that

this is being exploited at the moment, also for the mysterious aim of

reaching an equilibrium between the political parties
 But, apart from

all this, the establishment of strong preventive control should make

prison, at least as we know it, far less necessary. So, the function of

the sentence is control, and the more this function spreads to the point

of becoming preventive, the more prison will tend to change.

We must bear in mind that prison is quite different today to what it was

twenty years ago. It has changed more over the past ten years than it

did over the last hundred, and the whole process is still moving at this

rate. Today, the so-called model prisons are not all that different from

the maximum security prisons of the eighties. I don’t want to split

hairs here, but, in fact, although there were particular forms of

control in the maximum security prisons, that was not the main

difference. I was held in a maximum security wing similar to Fossombrone

at a time when such places existed, and was under article 90 for a few

months, so I know what it means: naked body searches every day, dozens

of guards outside the cell door every morning, and everything else.

These aspects are certainly terrible but they are not the main thing.

There are no effectively maximum security prisons left [in Italy] today.

Nowadays they may have fewer hours’ sociality in some places, the

exercise period may only be allowed in two’s or three’s, but in the

future everything could get much worse. Why?

When control covers the whole social territory the so-called spontaneous

prison population will be greatly reduced. Many ‘crimes’ will be

declassified and there will be less institutional imprisonment (possibly

through the use of electronic devices such as ‘Trasponder’, electronic

bracelets that set off an alarm if you go beyond the assigned perimeter,

and so on). Then, yes, there will be a real change in the prisons that

remain. Here isolation, psychological torture and white coats will take

the place of bloodstains on the wall, and science will be applied to

obtain the total destruction of the ‘outlaws’ who have no intention of

negotiating with the State. That is how we see prison evolving, and I

believe that studies are already being carried out on the subject. There

would no longer be any need to keep on calling the places of physical

annihilation that remain ‘prisons’, in fact they could be called

anything at all. For example, it would be sufficient to qualify

someone’s behaviour as insane in order to have them locked up in a

mental asylum. And if the law prevents us from calling these places

asylums and they are called ‘Jesus Christ’, they will still be places

where people are being killed slowly.

So, as I said before, the law wants to control but it also wants to

bring the offender, i.e. he who has marked himself with breaking the

rules, back to ‘normality’. It wants to apply an orthopaedic technique

to those who have behaved differently, draw them into the system and

render them innocuous. It wants to ensure that this deformed behaviour

will not repeat itself, and prevent any damage, or presumed damage, to

the community.

There is a great contradiction here. Although it no longer fully

subscribes to the orthopaedic ideology—and we will see within what

limits it does accept it—the judiciary realise that the sentencing

actually makes the ‘different’ more dangerous. So, on the one hand they

want to rehabilitate deviants through the use of the sentence and on the

other this makes them more dangerous. In other words, it gives the

individual access to a process that makes him become more of a danger to

society, which might have been quite accidental up until then.

The distinction I mentioned is based on the existence of a not clearly

identifiable minority of rebels that constitute the real community of

outlaws inside the prisons. These irreducible individuals have none of

the political characteristics that a debate in the sixties tried to pin

on them.

I think that any distinction now between ‘political’ and ‘common’ law

prisoners that existed for a long time and caused so much damage in my

opinion, no longer has any reason to exist. This distinction was

sometimes even proposed and supported by anarchists in the seventies and

the first half of the eighties. At that time it was adopted by power in

order to maintain a certain equilibrium. For example, when you called

the jailer, the politicals would shout ‘agente’ (officer) and the other

prisoners ‘guardia’ (guard). So as soon as you heard someone shouting

‘agente’ you knew that they were a comrade. There, something so simple

created a distinction that, moved into other areas often came to be

distorted by power and transformed into an instrument of recuperation.

This distinction between political and common law prisoners was never

really valid anyway in my opinion, except for those who wanted to use a

part of the prison population for their own ends: the growth of the

militant—military and militant—party, the possibility of building up

power relations inside the prison and the plan to use the

‘lumpen-proletarian’ prisoners. In a few cases, certain elements were

even used to carry out low works of justice, in plain words, as

murderers to kill people. Have I made myself clear? This has taken

place. We are talking of an historic responsibility that some of the

personalities who once led the old marxist-leninist combatant parties

and are in free circulation today took upon themselves. Some of our own

comrades were also killed that way. Not because this distinction was

made, but by an instrumentalisation of its consequences. It put

so-called common prisoners at the disposition of some of those who

defined themselves political prisoners in order to increase their

bargaining power inside the prison or with the Ministry in order to get

certain results. This ran parallel to the militaristic practice of the

management of power or ‘counterpower’ outside (each to their own taste)

and the central importance of the industrial workers, guided by the

party that was to lead them to their emancipation. These are all

dinosaurs today as far as I am concerned. They’re not in touch with

reality as I see it, at least I hope they’re not, maybe I’m wrong.

It might be useful to pause here for a moment in order to clarify our

opposition to any struggle for amnesty, something that raised more than

a few objections a number of years ago, even among anarchists.

The situation has changed now concerning relations between the prisoners

who insist on positions wrongly defined as irreducible and those who

have entered into negotiation with the State. At that time, 1985–86 I

think, I published a book, ‘And we will Always be Ready to Storm the

Gates of Heaven Again’*, which many considered to be a criticism of the

validity of a ‘struggle for amnesty’. The prevailing idea at the time

was contained in Scalzone’s so-called manifesto which carried,

precisely, the proposal of a struggle for amnesty and this was also made

by some of the anarchist movement, with the usual lack of comprehension.

But that was, let’s say, a secondary effect. It wasn’t the main aim of

the book. The important thing, still today, is that nobody has the right

to say, ‘Comrades, the war is over’. First, nobody declared this war in

the first place and so, until proved otherwise, no one can decree the

end of it. No State declared the war, nor did any armed group have the

idea of declaring one. The reasoning is characteristic of the militarist

logic, the logic of opposing groups that decide to call a truce at some

point. No one can tell us that ‘the war is over’, even less so when the

reason for doing so is simply to justify one’s own desistence.

If I don’t feel like carrying on, given that no one can be forced to

continue if they don’t feel like it, I say, ‘My friends, a man is made

of flesh and blood, he can’t go on to infinity. So, if I don’t feel I

can make it, what must I do? Sign a piece of paper? I don’t carry out

impure actions, I don’t get comrades arrested, I’m simply making a

declaration of my own desistence.’ I have always considered this to be a

legitimate position, because nobody can be obliged to carry on if they

don’t feel up to it. But desistence is no longer legitimate if , in

order to justify it, I come out with the statement, ‘I can’t carry on

because the war is over’. No, I no longer agree, because where does that

lead us? To all the others both inside and outside prison for whom it

isn’t true that the war is over, or for whom this concept is dubious,

but end up believing it because everybody is saying so. And, desisting

or not desisting, they end up reaching the same conclusion. It would be

quite indecorous for me to push others to desist in order for me to

justify my own personal decision to give up the struggle.

Now, conditions are radically different today, not in the sense that

this indecorousness no longer exists, but in the sense that it is out of

date as other attitudes prevail. They no longer say ‘The war is over’,

which moreover would be unfounded as they should really say ‘The war

never began; our war wasn’t really a social war at all’. But most of

them prefer to dedicate themselves to astrology or, sometimes, to

assisting prisoners. Yet, if you like, some of them might say, ‘Perhaps

we were wrong about some things, perhaps other ideas should have been

accepted in some of the debates that took place around the beginning of

the seventies.’ That would be a fine critical approach. I’m thinking of

one meeting at Porto Marghera where, among other things, the killing of

Calabresi [supercop responsible for the death of anarchist Giuseppe

Pinelli in1969 when he was; ‘suicided’ from the 4^(th) floor window of

Milan central police station] was under discussion. This was a very

important debate, which nobody talks about because hardly anybody knows

anything about it. Here, for the first time in Italy, two positions

appeared concerning this action....But perhaps not everybody is

interested in these questions... Well, between astrology and

assistentialism, another hypothesis has appeared, ‘It’s necessary to

start the war again, but with different weapons, not with the critique

of arms, but with the arms of critique.’ They are ready to take on the

world again, with words. As far as I know, this chatter concerns the

management of daily life. So, centres for the elaboration of chatter are

appearing everywhere: centres for the elaboration of information, radio

stations (very important, where between some strange music and a

pseudo-cultural discussion, concepts of taking over the territory are

pushed through), squats verging on legalisation or verging on survival,

closed up in themselves in the miserable ghetto. In this way dreams of

controlling the territory are reawakened. Through revarnished old

concepts, the same old centralised, more or less militant party (but you

can’t say that any more) management is getting into gear, and a new

pattern is emerging. This is all chatter for the time being: if they are

roses they will blossom. I think that’s what is happening, we don’t need

to give precise indications, we all know what I’m talking about. This

chatter has some interesting aspects: the recycling of old cariatids in

disuse... Of course, me too I’m an old cariatid, for goodness sake...

But I still have some ideas that seem to me to be interesting, ...that’s

just my opinion, I might be wrong.

There is still a nucleus of comrades in prison who are not prepared to

bargain with the State. Our solidarity can go to these comrades, but

that’s not enough. It can’t be enough for someone with centuries of

prison on their backs. Detailed proposals are necessary, indications

setting out the concrete destruction of prisons. At the present time, at

least so it seems to me, there is no sign of any project based on the

destruction of prisons. It is necessary to start all over again. If you

insist on a kind of cohabitation with power, you increase desistence

from the struggle. And it is not just a question of a model of

intervention that I disagree with but which I might take into

consideration while doing other things, if I could. Unfortunately, this

whole mechanism is starting up again and could give certain results,

results that are not acceptable to us, but which in themselves are quite

legitimate. That is why the situation is different today. On the other

hand, you won’t get far with demonstrations of solidarity, such as, for

example, one hundred thousand postcards addressed to the President of

the Republic. These things are usually a waste of time, they have never

meant much. Yes, letters, telegrams, might help comrades to feel they

haven’t been abandoned, because it’s nice for someone in prison to get

letters of solidarity, etc. Then, within certain limits, that can make

an impression on the prison authorities and on the individual screw, who

when he passes to control you at night might not keep the light on for

three seconds, but only one, because he’s scared and says to himself,

‘This one got twenty telegrams today, maybe one of his friends will be

waiting for me outside and split my head open’, very important things,

for goodness’ sake, I’m not denying it. It’s a question of doing

something, applying pressure, even minimal, in order to create a more

important deterrent perhaps, but looking at things realistically I’m

afraid these comrades still have many years ahead of them.

The debate on amnesty was not a simple theoretical exercise, however. It

soon became an instrument for realizing certain practical actions and

suggesting a way of intervening on the question of prison. It was, and

continues to be, important in trying to pose the problem of prison from

a revolutionary point of view. The acceptance of the struggle for

amnesty was a macroscopic mistake, in my opinion. It was also proposed

inconsiderately and ignorantly by more than a few anarchists who, not

knowing what to do, and not being aware of the risks implicit in such a

choice, decided to support it. It was a serious political and

revolutionary mistake which, I have to say in all honesty, I didn’t

make.

For example, the position regarding the Gozzini law* changed in relation

to the justification of the struggle for amnesty. Such choices had

consequences for the supporters of revolutionary authority. Clearly if

somebody says that prison changes deterministically according to the

changes in society, any attempt by the enemy to adjust my behaviour to

the historical evolution of reality, for example the Gozzini law, is all

right by me. So I accept it, in view of the struggle moving into other

sectors. The same goes for trade union bargaining. So I don’t see why it

should be any different for prison. What seems like innocent

sociological theory becomes a precise political choice involving the

lives and future of thousands of comrades in prison. We have always

maintained that we are against amnesty, or rather a struggle for amnesty

(which are two different things, when they give us an amnesty of their

own accord we’ll take it, and how).

Now let’s come back to the contradictions inherent in the concept of the

sentence and the various ways in which it is applied. The theoretical

debate on prison still contains the basic contradictions seen above,

which are really unsolvable.

In fact, these contradictions have become more acute in recent times.

Not that they didn’t exist before. But the function of the sentence, the

structure meting it out and prison itself—let’s say around or up until

1500—was to hold people until given sanctions were applied. Or they

functioned purely as separation, to keep certain people away from their

social context. ‘I Piombi’, in the seventeeth century, as you can read

in Casanova’s Memoires, was a prison in Venice that was self-managed by

the inmates. There were no custodians inside the prison walls, only

outside, and that was one of the worst prisons of the era. But already

with the ‘Piombi’ we are later than 1500, we are fully into the

seventeenth century.

So the old prison had a different function. The aim of the modern prison

is to ‘recuperate’—we are talking about the theory behind it—to bring

the individual back to a condition of normality. So prison has had two

functions, the old one where it was simply a place in which the

individual was parked while awaiting his or her fate (the death penalty,

mutilation, exclusion from the social context, a journey to the Holy

Land, which was equivalent to the death penalty given the difficulties

of such a journey in 1200–1300) and the modern one. Between these there

was the introduction of the so-called workhouses at the beginning of the

seventeen hundreds, with the aim of getting prisoners to work.

At a purely cultural level there was a theoretical debate that we don’t

need to go into here. Suffice it to say that prison structures such as

Bentham’s Panopticon, where a single custodian could control all the

wings at once—and bear in mind that similar structures still exist in

many prisons today—saw the light at the same time as the industrial

revolution. Some see a historical parallel between these two

developments, the figure of the modern prisoner emerging alongside that

of the worker in the early industrial plants. The industrial condition

develops and transforms, and has been the object of much criticism,

whereas the concept of naturalism in law remains, and giusnaturalism is

still at the root of the sacrality of the norm.

It doesn’t really make any difference whether the sacrality of the norm

originates from the positivist doctrine, from God, from a law intrinsic

to the development of animated beings, or is intrinsic to the

development of the History of man and the vicissitudes of human reason

(historical finalism). Anybody supporting any one of these theses is

always looking for a foundation upon which to erect their own

behavioural construction, their own castle of rules. Once the latter is

built, anyone who finds themselves outside the fortified circle becomes

a legitimate candidate for prison, segregation, exclusion or death, as

the case may be.

Now, the thesis that interests us most, because it is still an object of

debate and study today, is that concerning natural law, i.e. a law that

is natural to reason as it develops throughout history. This concept is

important because it allows for some interesting modifications, that is

to say it has not been crystallised once and for all in the will of God,

but changes according to events in history. It developed fully with the

Enlightenment in the eighteenth century, has all the limitations of the

philosophical interpretation of the time, and contains two essential

elements: first history, then reason. History is seen to be progressive,

moving from a situation of chaos, animality or danger towards one that

is safer and more humane. Bovio said, ‘History is moving towards

anarchy’, and many anarchists, at least of my generation, have repeated

that. I have never believed it possible to draw such a straight line on

this question. I am not at all convinced that history is moving towards

anarchy. There is another shadow in this beautiful enlightened, then

positivist, then idealist, then historicist discourse, that runs

parallel to it. All of these theories were elaborated in the academia of

power, in universities where philosophy and history are studied, places

where the suppliers of the State prisons are hard at work. And what is

this other shadow? It is the Shadow of Reason. Why is Reason always

right? I don’t know. It is always right to sentence someone. People are

sentenced to the electric chair with reason, nobody is sentenced to

death without reason, there are a thousand reasons for sentencing people

to death. A sentence without reason doesn’t exist. I have been in prison

many times, with reason, their reason.

It has been said that Nazism, realized in Germany in the thirties and

forties, was an explosion of irrationality, that is, of a lack of

reason. Well, I have never believed such a thing. Nazism was the extreme

consequence of the application of reason, i.e. the Hegelian reason of

the objective spirit that realizes itself in History, taken to its

natural conclusion. The most logical discourse in this sense was made by

an Italian philosopher, Gentile, at a conference in Palermo where he

made reference to the moral force of the truncheon. By striking in the

name of reason, the truncheon is always right, and State violence is

always ethical because the State is ethical.

All this might sound stupid, but it isn’t because it constitutes the

foundation of so-called modern progressivism. We have seen this in the

Communist Party, the workers’ party, in marxist so-called revolutionary

movements, and also on the Right, in right-wing movements. Whereas the

Right, for its own reasons of identity, wrapped itself up in

conventional irrationalism (flags, symbols, discourses on destiny,

blood, race, etc.), the former packaged themselves in another variety:

progress, history, the future, the proletariat that was to defeat the

bourgeoisie, the State that was to extinguish itself. And, I might add,

more than a few anarchists tagged on to this discourse, going along with

this enormous metaphysical and ideological swindle. They simply pointed

out that history was not moving towards the extinction of the State but

towards anarchy and that it was necessary to extinguish the State right

away in order to reach anarchy more quickly. This ideological subtlety

did not move the content of this journey an inch from the marxist one.

And it never entered anyone’s head that it was the discourse of reason,

and that it might be a swindle and serve as a basis and an alibi for

building a wall around the different.

That is why it is necessary to look at the optimism of the

anarchists—for example Kropotkin’s—more deeply and critically, in order

to see the limitations of this way of thinking. It is important to see

the equivocation of Kropotkin’s ‘seed under the snow’, as well as those

of other comrades of the anarchist positivist tendency. Everything that

I’m saying here might seem far from the question of prison—on the

contrary, this is exactly the theoretical and philosophical territory in

which prison finds its justification.

We should also look at Malatesta’s voluntarism, which seems to be the

opposite but fails to come up with any solutions unless it is inserted

within the ‘objective’ deterministic development of history in the

direction of anarchy. I might have limitations, my personal capacity

might be circumscribed, but history is moving towards anarchy anyway, so

if it doesn’t come about now it will do some time in the future. We

should also take a look at the limitations of Stirner’s individualism,

something we tried to do at the recent meeting in Florence. We need to

see if such limitations really exist and if so, what they are, obviously

being very different from those of Malatesta and Kropotkin.

So, what what conclusions can we draw at this point? Prison is not an

abuse of power, it is not an exception, it is normal. The State builds

prisons so that it can put us in them. In so doing it is not doing

anything strange, it is simply doing its job. The State is not a prison

State, it is the State, that’s all. In the same way that it expresses

itself through economic and cultural activity, political management and

the management of free time, it deals with the management of prison.

These elements are not separate, it is impossible to talk about prison

on its own, it wouldn’t make sense because it would be taking one

element out of context. On the other hand, if this element is put into

its proper context, and that is exactly what the specialist cannot do,

the discourse changes. That is why we started off with the problem of

specialisation, because the specialist is only able to talk about his

own subject. ‘Given that I know something about prison, I don’t see why

I should talk about anything else’.

I believe that collective experiences, if this concept still means

anything, are composed of so many individual moments. Woe betide if we

were to obliterate these individual moments in the name of a superior

one, that which the marxists defined subsumption. Subsumption of

society, never! These terroristic processes must be absolutely

condemned. The individual has a moment that is his or hers and the

prisoner has his or her moment, which is not the same as that of another

prisoner. I absolutely disagree with those who say that I, who have been

in prison, must struggle more effectively than someone who has not. No,

because I struggle differently from someone who has never been in prison

and just as differently from one who has done more time than me, and so

on. And, viceversa, I could meet a comrade who is capable of making

suggestions to me, of making me understand, feel, imagine, or dream a

different kind of struggle, even if he has never been in prison. No

specialisation. Remember the first things that were said this evening:

no professionality, no talk of professors, even less professors of

prison matters. Fortunately, there is no specialisation here, we are not

at university.

We are all individuals who seek each other, who meet, go away, come

together again, moving on the basis of affinity, also transitory, which

can disappear or intensify. We are like a multitude of atoms in

movement, which have a very strong capacity for reciprocal penetration.

It is not a question, as Leibnez said, of monads without windows. We are

not isolated, we have our individual value, all individuals do. Only by

keeping this ineliminable moment constantly present is it possible to

talk of society, or the capacity to act, move and live together,

otherwise any society at all would be a prison. If I must sacrifice even

a tiny part of my individuality in the name of the Aufbehung—overcoming

in the Hegelian sense of the term—in the name of an abstract

principle... even anarchy, even freedom, then I don’t agree. Prison is

certainly an extreme condition and so, like all total conditions, total

institutions, it shows one’s true fabric clearly. It is like pulling a

piece of cloth as far as it can go, and just before it tears apart the

weave begins to appear. There, the individual who submits to the most

violent conditions reveals the cloth of which he or she is made. Maybe

he or she will discover things about themselves that they would never

have imagined in other situations. But this starting point is important

and fundamental: no element, idea, dream or utopia can take away this

individual moment, nor can the latter be sacrificed to any of the

former.

But let’s come back to our argument. Prison is the normality of the

State, and we, who live under the State with our daily lives regulated

by its pace and times, are living in a prison. In my opinion this has

been incorrectly but interestingly defined as an immaterial prison. That

is to say, it is not visible as such. It does not enclose us in such a

direct, shocking way as the walls of a prison do. It is nevertheless a

real prison, in that we are forced to submit to and adopt models of

behaviour that we didn’t decide upon ourselves, but have been imposed

from outside, about which we can do very little.

But prison is also a construction. It is a place, an ideology, a

culture, a social phenomenon. That is, it has a specific identity, so if

on the one hand we bring it out of this specificity, we cannot at the

same time dilute it into society, and simply say, ‘We are all in prison,

my situation was no different when I passed through that wretched door

and found myself in an empty cell with a loud radio blaring.’ I felt a

trauma at the moment I walked through that cell door and heard someone

lock it behind me. This trauma exists, it’s not purely psychological, it

also consists of a fellow with a bunch of keys that jangle continuously,

the noise of which you carry with you for the rest of your life. You

never forget it, it’s something that rings in your ears, even at night

when you’re asleep, that noise of the keys, someone locking the door on

you. This fact of closing the door is, I believe, one of the most

horrifying things that one human being can do to another. For me someone

who holds a key in his hand and locks a human being behind a door, no

matter what the latter might have done, for me anyone who closes that

door is an absolutely contemptible person, one about whom it is

impossible to talk about in terms of human fraternity, human features

and so on. Yet there are moments when you need this individual, when a

psychological mechanism connected to solitude lets loose. When you are

alone, in your hole... You’ve been alone for a month, a month and a

half, two months. The days pass and you don’t see anyone, sometimes you

hear incredible noises, at others nothing, and you hear a footstep there

outside. You know it is his footstep. You are absolutely convinced that

this is the worst, most contemptible person on earth. Yet at a certain

point you stand behind the door and wait for him like a lover because

when that despicable person passes he throws you a glance that reminds

you that you are a human being. Because he too has two legs, two arms

and two eyes. At a certain point you see him differently. You no longer

see the uniform, and you say to yourself, ‘Humanity still exists after

all’.

That is what that hole, that little cell, leads to, so you now have

something specific that can no longer be seen as the dilution of prison

into daily life. That is why prison is not immaterial. That is why

prison is both a specific, architectonic structure, and is at the same

time diffused. We are all in prison, but prison is also something

different. But we must not only see it as something different because if

we did we would cease to understand it.

I understand that all this might seem contradictory at first. But that

is just an impression. If you think about it, it is no more

contradictory than anything else.

The sentence, we said, is the mechanism that the so-called important

philosophers... think of what Kant said about the sentence... this great

philosopher said something horrendous... He said, ‘On an island there is

a community, and this community dissolves itself and everybody goes

away, only one man remains, a murderer, the last to kill a man. Now the

community has broken up, there is absolutely nothing to safeguard, there

is no longer a common good, there is nothing left to revive, well, that

man must still do his sentence.’ This is what Kant said, the philosopher

who opened up the perspective of modern historicism. Bah!...

Anyway... So, the sentence, what does it do? According to theoreticians

of every hue, it restores the equilibrium that has been upset, it

redresses a balance. But what does the sentence really do? It does

something else. First of all it precipitates the individual into a

condition of uncertainty. That is, anyone facing such a construction,

such an efficient mechanism, finds himself before something bigger than

himself. This mechanism is composed of lawyers, judges, carabinieri,

police, house searches, pushing and pulling, curses, being stripped

naked, flexions—once there used to be anal inspections, which anyone who

hasn’t been subjected to can’t imagine—the conditions of detention in

the prison... That is the sentence. You are still at the beginning, you

still haven’t been accused of anything yet, just a few words on a piece

of paper bearing an article of the penal code that you don’t even

understand, but already the sentence enters your blood and becomes part

of you. And how does it become part of you? By putting you in a

condition of uncertainty. You don’t know what’s going to happen to you.

You can be the most hardened criminal and find yourself in that state of

uncertainty, and I know that because I have spoken to people who are

apparently in control, people who, when they come into prison, greet the

officer in charge, greet this one and that one, but when they go to bed

and put their head on the pillow, start to cry. Because the situation is

like that, when you come to find yourself in these conditions it’s not

easy to see how it’s all going to end. I’ve also spoken to many

comrades, we have joked together about the situation in prison, but we

couldn’t deny that we had been placed in a situation of uncertainty

where you don’t know what to expect the next day... And this condition

of uncertainty is perhaps the essential element, the one at the root of

all the syndromes, all the specific illnesses, everything that emerges

from time in prison. You will be in a condition of uncertainty all the

time you are inside. In fact, up until three minutes before you go

through the last gate—bear in mind that there are about twenty between

your cell door and the outside one—you don’t know whether, exactly two

metres away from the last gate, a revolt will break out inside, you’ll

get involved in it and you’re lost; you can start talking again twenty

years on. So, this uncertainty is practically inside you, you know it’s

inside you, and you can’t say, ‘OK, after all I’m a revolutionary, all

this doesn’t affect me: prison, death, twenty years, two months...’,

comrades, that’s bullshit. It’s bullshit that I’ve said, me too, to give

myself courage, and also to give courage to others, the family, my

mother, my father, who were old and were broken-hearted by the visits.

When I went to prison the first time they cried, poor things. These are

difficult situations, and you project uncertainty towards the outside,

you project it on to those who love you, your children, on a whole

situation that doesn’t disappear with chatter. I remember when,

precisely finding myself in isolation for the first time, twenty-five

years ago, I started to sing anarchist songs... and I hate anarchist

songs. How did I manage to sing these songs in there? I was singing to

give myself courage, like a child that starts to whistle or tell fairy

stories so as not to be scared in the dark.

The other element, which I experienced palpably, was the deformation of

communication. You can’t make it to communicate. In order to be able to

say something, let’s say to change your lawyer, a whole bureaucratic

procedure must be gone through: in the evening you have to stick a piece

of paper on the armoured door of your cell saying that you want to go to

the registry office next day. The next day they call you, and you set

off to the office. Calculating, let’s say, that it’s about seventy-five

metres away, you think you’ll only be a few minutes, but no! It can take

from ten minutes to an hour and a half to cross these seventy-five

metres, and, like an idiot, you wait behind each door for some angel in

uniform to come and open it for you, trac-trac, and you pass the first,

second, third, fourth obstacle and everything else. This changes your

world completely. What does it change? It changes your whole conception

of time and space. It sounds easy, because we cope with this concept

like we do with money, like coins that we use every day. But it’s not so

simple, because time is not what is marked by the clock: that is

absolute time, Newton’s time, that has been determined once and for all.

Alongside this time there is that of a French philosopher, and this is

known as the real duration, that’s to say, there is time in the sense

indicated by Saint Augustine, time as consciousness, as the duration of

our consciousness. That is waiting. We measure waiting by the beat of

our sensations, and its duration is not at all equal to the absolute

time of the clock.

Once clocks were forbidden in prison, now, since the prison reform in

1974, they are allowed. And it’s worse, in my opinion. Once you never

knew what time it was, you guessed it with the sun, or with the prison

routine, which constituted a ‘natural’ clock, an institutional clock,

hence you knew that at half past seven the armoured door would be opened

and the day would begin. The noise they make in opening that door has

its historically recognizable function, which has developed in various

ways throughout time. While doing some research on the Inquisition, I

found instructions in a manual of 1600 on how to open the door in cases

where the Confratelli della Compagnia dei Bianchi, the ones with the

white hoods that is, had to take a condemned prisoner to the scaffold.

The Spanish Inquisition also existed in Sicily, so they were well

organised. Those belonging to this Compagnia dei Bianchi had the job of

assisting condemned prisoners during the three days preceding execution.

One of their tasks was to ensure that they were ready to be brought to

justice, and how did they do that? By inventing a particular technique:

they acted as though they were about to take the prisoner to the

scaffold. They woke him up early, made a lot of noise, marched in groups

with all those entrusted with this operation, the halberdiers, etc.. But

it wasn’t true, it was merely an atrocious staging, simply to see how

the poor devil would react. If they reacted properly, i.e. didn’t go

crazy, they were considered ready for the final operation. So, opening

an armoured door isn’t like opening just any door. These well-built

young men, instructed in Parma, had received particular dispositions:

the armoured door is to be opened with extremely violent blows, the

sleeping prisoner must jump up in the air. From that moment he must

think, ‘There, the world of dreams is over, now the institution begins,

now they are telling me what to do...’ Half past seven, you don’t go

out, you go out at half past eight, in other words, you do everything

according to the prison routine, which is obviously what they want.

For example, I don’t know, something important... the passage of time is

also marked by other things: the milk arrives in the morning (I have

thought a lot about these little things, anyway there’s nothing else to

do in prison so what do you do? You think.), then they bring you an egg

or two at ten, then at half past ten or eleven the fruit, then at twelve

o’clock lunch, then at two they bring you something else, I don’t know,

some jam, why? Because that way the time passes, they regulate it for

you. The arrival of the food is an event, you frame it within this

segregative context and that is what your life boils down to.

All this seems piffle, but in my opinion it is science, real prison

science. What do the so-called prison operators who think they know

everything, know about all this? First of all, the university professor

has never been in prison. Normally those who take an interest in prison

don’t have the faintest idea of what it really is. Let’s leave aside law

professors, who don’t even know what they are talking about, poor

things. We are talking about prison workers who, the closer they seem to

get to the inside of prison the less they possibly understand about it.

Lawyers and judges yes, they have been inside prisons, but where? In the

external part, in the visitor’s rooms. Apart from exceptional cases

where a superintendent from the court comes into the wing (but he only

comes into the wing, not the cells), lawyers and judges don’t normally

know what a prison is. I’ll go further, even the prison workers, the

psychologists, social workers, every species of cop, don’t know what

prison is. In fact, what is their job? They go into rooms that are

reserved for them, call the prisoner, have a fine discussion, then go

home and eat their dinner. And, moreover, even the screws don’t know

what prison is, and can I tell you that from personal experience. For

example, when I was in Bergamo prison and the other prisoners and I ,

within the limits of our possibilities, organised—we didn’t call it a

revolt, but a kind of protest—because they were taking out the plugs we

used to block the holes that the screws had made in the toilets to

control us even there. All prisoners block these holes as best they can,

with anything they can lay their hands on: paper, pieces of wood,

hanging towels and a hundred other things. Usually these defences are

left alone, but sometimes the governor in Bergamo gave the order to get

rid of them, so the screws pushed them out with a pencil. In answer to

our protest the governor replied, ‘Why are you making such a fuss about

nothing, after all we are all men’. What, we are all men? ‘You are the

governor and I am the prisoner and I don’t want the guard looking at me

when I’m in the toilet.’ So the governor thought that the problem was

something trivial. But this barracks camaraderie showed that, although

he was the governor of a prison, he had no idea what prison is. Because

I do not go to the toilet along with my cell mate, a prisoner like

myself, a companion of mine whom you certainly can’t, in terms of

humanity, friendship and personal relationship, compare to a prison

governor, that’s obvious. And when the toilet was in the cell, one

invented a thousand expedients to find the way to use it alone. The

toilet used to be right inside the cell. When I was in prison for the

first time, in Catania nearly a quarter of a century ago, I got work

registering the prisoners’ accounts, and I noticed that many prisoners

consumed a huge amount of S. Pellegrino magnesium. When I asked why,

they explained that by taking this purgative every week their shit

didn’t smell, or at least it did less. What does that show us? That the

governor and the screws have no idea about what prison is. Because to

understand prison, you must be on the other side of the door when the

guard locks it. There is the question of the key, without the key it’s

all theory.

So, to get back to the point. Of course, prison is composed of the

walls, the cop with the machine gun patrolling them, the exercise yard,

the mist that descends on the yard and you don’t know where you are,

what planet you’re on, whether you’re in exile, on the moon, etc. But,

basically, prison is the cell. And you can be alone in that cell or with

others, and these are two separate conditions and two different kinds of

suffering. Because yes, we are strong, etc., but I have done prison

alone, and it’s no joke. The last time I did almost two years alone, and

it was heavy. Perhaps with others it is even heavier, or at least it is

heavy in a different way because the animal man behaves strangely in

reclusion and so... This is a rough outline of the problems to do with

prison, told lightly, and I won’t go into certain other questions.

I had made a note of some other problems but they are not very

important. I just want to mention a couple of things, first the smell.

Prison has a particular smell that you never forget. You smell it in the

morning. I remember, it’s a smell that you find in three other places:

bars when they open in the morning, billiard rooms and brothels. In

places where the human animal finds itself in particular conditions of

suffering there is a particular odour, and prison has this smell and you

never forget it, you notice it most in the morning when they open the

armoured doors, don’t ask me why. The other problem is noise, the noise

is really something terrible, there’s no way you can get used to it.

It’s not just the music, the Neapolitan songs that torture you. You

can’t describe it, it’s something horrendous. Whereas a problem of

secondary importance, at least as far as I could see, and not only from

my own personal experience, was the problem of sexual desire; this is

not such a problem as it might seem from outside. I saw the prisoners’

response to a questionnaire sent round by the ministry about fifteen

years ago concerning the eventuality of setting up a system of so-called

love hours, let’s say, with one’s legitimate partner, and it was almost

completely negative.

Now let’s look at the final part of the question, if you are not too

dazed. What can the perspective of prison be? That is, in what way is

power trying to restructure prison conditions which, obviously, are

never static? Prison is uncertain by definition, so you never know

what’s going to happen. This uncertainty is also ambivalent as far as

the rules are concerned. There is a law that says that the prisoner must

be given a copy of the prison rules when he or she arrives, in order to

read and respect them, if they want. In some prisons, like the Dozza in

Bologna, for example, they give a three page extract, but the actual

rules are a beast of 150 pages. So incredible things happen. If someone

gets hold of all the rules and reads them carefully they can end up

creating problems for the institution.

I said prison is something that is constantly undergoing profound

transformation and, in my opinion (this is my personal idea), is moving

towards an opening, that is, it is tending to open up and have people

participate. In the seventies it took you about an hour to make a fried

egg or a coffee in your cell, because you had to make a kind of

construction with empty match boxes covered in silver paper from

cigarette packets, then put solid gas under it, the so-called ‘mela’,

then light this thing, always messing about with this alchemy near the

toilet because there were no tables or chairs. You had to fold up the

bed in the morning so there was a kind of platform to sit on. There is a

considerable difference between these primordial conditions and those of

today where there are even structures where you can cook in the judicial

prisons as well as the penal institutions (the latter are even better

equipped and more ‘open’).

The reform has been approved. This reform has certainly improved prison

conditions to some extent, of course. It has created a few extra moments

of sociality, made other things worse, and led to greater disparity

between prisoners. The Dozza, for example, is a model prison. Built as a

special high security prison, it is now being used as a normal one and

it is infinitely worse than the old San Giovanni. I have been in both

and can honestly say that the Dozza is worse. But whereas there were

bars over the windows at San Giovanni, then the metal grid behind the

bars, then the ventilation grid, in the Dozza there are only vertical

bars and so you seem to be more free but with all that conditions on the

whole are worse, they are more inhuman. Whereas at San Giovanni you

couldn’t leave your cell and walk about in the wing, in the Dozza you

are free to do so (always in the hours fixed by the direction) so, there

are differences... But these are, you might say, pulsations within the

prison system. It’s sufficient for something to go wrong and the wider

berth immediately restricts itself. If instead of one prisoner hanging

himself every 15 days there is one a week, things immediately start to

change. At the end of 1987, precisely at the Dozza,there was a simple

protest which the prison authorities responded to with an armed attack

against the infirmary, led by the nazi-style military commander of the

prison. In such situations prison changes in a flash.

But these pulsations inside particular prisons are related to the

pulsation of development and transformation in the prison system as a

whole, which is moving towards an opening. Why is this? Because it

corresponds to the development of the prison system, the extension of

its peripheral structures and the structures of the State as a whole.

That is to say, there is more participation. This concept deserves to be

looked at more closely. Bear in mind, on the basis of what we were

saying before about contradictions, that the concept of participation is

not at all separate from the concept of separateness. I participate and

in an initial phase of this participation I feel closer to the others

who participate along with me. As this increases, however, the very

process of participation isolates me and makes me different from the

others, because each one follows his own road in this participation.

Let’s try to illustrate this concept better, because it is not very

simple. You can see participation everywhere, in schools, in the

factory, in the various functions of the unions, in school and factory

councils, basically in the whole world of production. Participation

comes about in different ways according to the situation. In the ghetto

areas of cities, for example. Take the St Cristoforo area in Catania

[Sicily], for example. It is one of the biggest ghettoes in the town,

with a high concentration of social problems, but things are changing,

there are the family consultancies, whereas once the police couldn’t

even circulate there. How has this greater participation changed the

area? Has is brought it closer to or taken it further away from the rest

of Catania? That is the question. In my opinion, it has isolated it from

the other areas even more, by making it even more specific. In my

opinion, the aim of participation is to divide.

Prison is opening up to participation, there are structures for an

inside-outside dialogue, such as ‘Prison-territory’, let’s say, composed

of a bunch of swindlers, third-rate ideologues, representatives of town

councils, unions and schools, and delegations from the Bishopric. All

this mob do is to get authorisations to go inside the prison based on

article 17, and contact the prisoner, thereby establishing a contact

between inside and outside. Any prisoner has one hundred, one thousand

problems, he or she is like a patient. If you go into a hospital and

talk to a patient, they have all the illnesses in the book. If you go

into prison and talk to a prisoner you will find that he or she has a

thousand problems. Above all, they are always innocent, didn’t do

anything wrong and their family is always needy. Well, the things

prisoners always talk about. On the other hand, they each look after

their own interests and, in any case, it’s not appreciated in prison for

someone to come out with, ‘Prison doesn’t do anything to me, it’s

bullshit, rubbish...’, no, that wouldn’t go down well.

Participation causes further separation, a greater division inside the

prison, because the few people of a consciously illegal disposition,

that is to say the ones who really are ‘outlaws’, stand out. In a prison

population of, let’s say, one hundred prisoners, you can already

distinguish them in the yard. There you can see who the serious people

are and who are not, and you can see that in many ways, from the many

signals they give out. A whole discourse develops inside, based on the

way they walk, the choices they make, the words they use. I know, many

of these things can be taken the wrong way. I am not praising

stereotypical behaviour, what I’m saying is that there’s a specificity

inside prison. There is the prisoner who is aware of his job of being a

prisoner, his qualification as a prisoner, and there is the prisoner who

finds himself locked up by mistake, who might very well have been a bank

manager, or simply a poor idiot. There is even the prisoner who finds a

transitory systemization in prison, who sees prison as a passing

accident (as short as possible) or a form of social assistance. I have

seen people get themselves arrested just before Christmas because at

Christmas they give Christmas dinner (you think that’s nothing?), or to

get properly cleaned up, or to be cured, because for many of them there

is no other way to get treatment—and there is not one but hundreds of

such cases.

But there is another prison population, those who pride themselves in

being ‘outlaws’, in being able to attack determined structures of the

State their own way. This population is obviously not prepared to play

the game of participation, so will stand out and be subjected to very

precise separation. That is why participatory prison is a prison of

division, because it separates. Not all are able to participate at the

same level, not everybody accepts a dialogue with power. And the greater

the participation, the greater the number of signals that come from it,

the more the sectorialisation of the prison world becomes visible.

Much remains to be said concerning the question of accepting a

relationship with the prison institution. I am not going into all that

today, having done it many times in the past. But let’s take the

question of parole. This is not something that can be summed up as a

direct relationship between prison and prisoner. Before parole is

granted there is a whole procedure called ‘treatment’ (the choice of the

word is no coincidence, in that the prisoner is seen as a patient). The

treatment is a series of decisions that he or she must make one after

the other. It begins with a meeting with the psychiatrist, then there is

taking a job inside the prison and that depends on your not having had

any problems inside, so it’s something that goes on for two or three

years. That’s it, you have to choose the road of bargaining with power

well in advance. A legitimate choice, for goodness sake, but always in

the optic of that desistence for which one says, ‘I don’t feel like

carrying on. I’m not damaging anyone and I’m going to take this road’...

Well, if the guard behaves in a certain way I pretend to look at the

wall that seems to have got very interesting all of a sudden; if there’s

a problem, I’m not saying a revolt, but a simple problem, I stay in the

cell and don’t go out into the yard. All this involves a choice, there

is no clear alternative between detention and parole, that’s pure

theory, in practice it’s not like that. Basically this problem exists

for prisoners who have a coherence as revolutionaries. But prisoners in

general, who find themselves inside for their own reasons and have never

claimed any ‘political’ identity no matter how rarified this concept has

become, see things in terms of the practicability of a choice and do not

pose themselves such problems even remotely. They have their own

personal history and the way it fits in with what the law offers them.

This itinerary takes two or three years, it’s not something that happens

in a day.

Of course, the prison of the future, which I believe will be far more

open than the present one, will receive more attention so will be far

more repressive and more closed, totally closed, towards the minority

that does not accept bargaining, does not want to participate and

refuses to even discuss anything. That is why I have spoken of the

relationship between participation and division, a relationship that is

anything but obvious at first sight. Things that seemed so far apart

turn out to be close together: participation creates division.

So, what to do? We have often asked ourselves this question as far as

prison is concerned. I’ve just read a little pamphlet. I hardly ever

read anything about prison on principle, because it disgusts me to read

these texts that go on and on about it. But, as I had been asked by some

comrades, I accepted a ‘family’ discussion, let’s say. So, I was saying,

I read this pamphlet. It was published by the comrades of Nautilus

publications and contained an abolitionist text on prison, then an

article by Riccardo d’Este*. It was interesting, even though I didn’t

understand exactly what he wanted to say, I mean, whether he was making

a critique of abolitionism or not, or whether he couldn’t manage to do

so completely, given that he was presenting this pamphlet. But there’s

something I don’t like in this text and that is what I want to say, and

when I see Riccardo I’ll tell him. He condemned, absolutely and without

appeal, those who have theorised or carried out attacks against prisons

in the past. This judgement seems wrong to me. He says this... bear in

mind that Riccardo is a very good comrade whom you perhaps got to know

at one of his conferences here in Bologna... he says, ‘These attacks

were nothing, they were senseless, in fact they have built the prisons

anyway.’ But come on, dear man! You who are against efficientism in

everything else, you say something that is eminently efficientist. What

does ‘they built the prisons anyway’ mean? Perhaps anything we do, when

it doesn’t produce the desired result, or doesn’t reach the desired

goal, isn’t worth a damn? Sorry if I put this so simplistically, but the

question of the attack on prisons is of particular interest to me. But

no! Prisons must be attacked. That doesn’t mean to say that once it has

been decided to attack them they will all disappear. Or that because we

have attacked them once we can say we are happy and will do nothing else

to destroy them. I remember the attempt to destroy the prison of

Sollicciano when it was being built. The attempt was made, but the

prisons of Sollicciano were built all the same. But what does that mean,

that the attack was pointless? I don’t think so. Because if we were to

come to the conclusion that Riccardo did, perhaps by a slip of the pen,

as I’d like to think, we must condemn everything we do. Because nothing

that revolutionary and anarchist comrades do is guaranteed to obtain the

desired result and reach its goal in absolute. If that were the case we

would really all be at peace.

Concerning Riccardo d’Este’s text, it should be said that I don’t just

know his ideas from reading the pamphlet on prison, but also through

having spoken to him. Riccardo is a fascinating person, but when you

listen to him, or read him, you do well to separate what he writes from

what he says, the wheat from the chaff, to see how much is valid and how

much is the fascinating way he says it.

In my opinion, a separation of the kind he makes on the question of a

possible interaction between reform and extremism doesn’t exist. In

reality there are not struggles that are reformist and others that are

revolutionary. It is the way that you carry out a struggle that counts.

As we said earlier, the way you behave with others counts a great deal:

if I behave with my companion in a certain way, am I a reformist or a

revolutionary? No, these are not the alternatives, it is more a question

of seeing whether I am a bastard or not. And if I make a distinction

between my way of being and my way of acting, my way of being in the

intimacy of my relations with those close to me and my ‘political’ way

of appearing, then the distinction about reformism becomes valid. It is

absurd to talk about these concepts in abstract.

The individual must make up his or her mind as to what their basic

choices are in everything they do. If not, if they are continually

copping out, they will clearly be revolutionaries in word alone, or they

might conquer the world, but in order to do what? To enact a new theatre

of Greek tragedy. The above distinction only exists in the world of the

politician, that of the spectacle, representation (in Schopenhauer’s

sense of the term). If we reduce the world to this representation (don’t

let’s forget that Schopenhauer lent his binoculars to a Prussian officer

in order for him to take better aim and shoot the insurgents; this is

the man who talks to us of the ‘world as representation’, not the one

that some anarchist readers have dreamed of from his book) then, yes, it

is possible to make a distinction between reform and revolution, but

again this is chatter. These abstract ideas don’t exist in reality.

There is the individual, with everything he or she relates to, and

through this relating contributes to transforming reality, so you can’t

make precise distinctions about the things they do. All the theoretical

distinction between reform and revolution is not as significant as was

thought in the past.

...Now a few words on the question of efficientism.

This is a question that people work out for themselves. I come from a

culture and a way of thinking that could be defined efficientist, I was

born in an efficientist atmosphere, I come from the school of

efficientism. Then I convinced myself that this gets you nowhere. I

convinced myself... theoretically, maybe in practice I am still the

same, but at least in theory I can see the difference, that not all the

actions one carries out necessarily obtain instant results. That is

fundamental. It is important to understand this for many reasons, first

of all because there is a tendency, especially among revolutionaries, to

present the bill, and let’s not forget that revolutionaries are greedy,

they are exacting creditors... They are very quick to rig up the

ghigliottine, they don’t wait for anyone, this is something terrible. In

fact, what is the ghigliotine of the revolutionary? It is the

consequence of efficientism, because it reaches a certain point then

begins to... I read something recently concerning the stupor caused by

of Lenin’s writings. Many are shocked because Lenin ordered the peasant

proprietors to be killed. That didn’t surprise me at all. The killing of

peasant proprietors is quite normal when done in the name of

revolutionary efficientism. Either one is surprised at everything to do

with efficientism, or one doesn’t wonder at reading something of the

sort because it is quite normal, a logical consequence of the choices

made previously. If one wants to reach given objectives, there are

certain costs, that is the concept of efficientism.

The question of efficientism concerns how to set out a struggle

correctly, for example the struggle against the prison institutions that

hang over each and every one of us to a certain extent. My grandfather

used to say, ‘We all own a brick of the prison’. ‘We have a brick each’,

he used to say. Not that he understood much about prison, but it was a

well-known Sicilian proverb at the time. So, let’s make prison become

part of our whole intervention in reality, in intermediary struggles.

The latter are the struggles that we carry out without expecting any

great results because they will probably be recuperated, or because they

are circumscribed. If these struggles are set out correctly, however,

they always give some kind of result in a way that is different to

efficientism. I mean, if social struggles are properly set out they

reproduce themselves. And how can they be set out properly? First of all

by getting away from the question of the delegate and the expectation of

any outside support; in other words, by self-managing them. Then, they

obviously shouldn’t be carried out in accordance with the precise

deadlines that are fixed in the laboratories of power, so they must

start off from a different way of seeing things, from a logic of

permanent conflictuality. These two concepts, self-management and

permanent conflictuality, are then combined with a third: the absence of

the need for immediate visibility. The effectiveness of a struggle does

not come from a utopian vision of reality, but from the real possibility

of setting it out in a way that eliminates any possibility of its being

transformed into quantity and getting quantitative results.

This is possible. In fact, if we think about it, it is always possible.

We often make the mistake of wanting to circumscribe the struggle in

order to be better understood. By intervening in something specific such

as the factory for example it is easy to see the characteristics: the

struggle for wage increases, holding on to jobs, fighting pollution at

work, and so many other things, and we don’t see how prison can fit in

to that, because we think that people wouldn’t understand us as well if

we were to widen the argument.

In itself the struggle, let’s say in a factory, is always an

intermediate one. How might such a struggle end up? At best one would

reach the original objective, the workers would save their jobs, then

everything would be recuperated. The struggle is recuperated, the bosses

find an alternative to redundancy money, they find an alternative to

dangerous work, they find further investment to improve conditions, etc.

This kind of situation satisfies us, and in fact it is all right from a

revolutionary point of view if the initial conditions of timing,

permanent conflictuality, self-management of the struggle and everything

else, were maintained throughout. But it is no longer satisfying if, in

the name of efficiency, we prevent ourselves from including prison in

it. Because for me the question of prison must be present in all the

struggles we carry out like any other aspect of the revolutionary

discourse. And if we think about it, it is possible to do something of

the kind. When we don’t, it is only in the name of efficiency, because

we think that we won’t be understood or that we might seem dangerous, so

we prefer to avoid the question of prison.

A few words now on the abolitionist position. Bear in mind that I am not

all that well prepared on the subject, first of all because I don’t

agree with the abolitionist position as I understand it, so I might miss

something out. If what I say turns out to be lacking, well, correct me.

I was saying, don’t agree with the abolitionist position, not because I

want prisons, of course, but because I don’t agree with a position that

wants to abolish part of a whole that cannot be dissected. In other

words, I don’t think that it’s possible to talk about abolition as

opposed to attack. In other words, I don’t think that it’s possible to

propose a platform to abolish one aspect of a context that is

organically inseparable. I don’t agree with proposals to abolish the

judiciary, because for me such proposals don’t make sense; or to abolish

the police for that matter. That doesn’t mean that I’m in favour of the

judiciary or the police. In the same way, I don’t agree with the

abolition of the State, only its destruction. And not only do I agree to

that but I am ready to act now towards such an end, whenever that is,

even if it is extremely improbable in the short term. I mean, I am ready

to do something, and can discuss what to do in terms of attack against

this or that specific aspect of the State, and so also against prison.

In other words, as I see it the problem needs to be upturned. It is not

a question of abolishing a part of the State, such as prison for

example, but of destroying the State, obviously not completely and all

at once, otherwise we would put it off to infinity. It would be like

following that famous direction in history that is moving towards

anarchy in any case, so we would end up doing nothing, waiting for this

anarchy to come about by itself. On the contrary, I am prepared to do

something today, right away, even against a part of the total

institution ‘State’, so also against prison, the police, the judiciary,

or any other of the essential components of the State. This is the

concept that I wanted to make clear.

What do these ideas actually correspond to? Let’s spend another couple

of minutes, don’t get restless, I swear I won’t bore you much longer. If

you think about it carefully, the idea of the abolition of prison comes

from quite a precise theoretical context, which frankly I don’t know,

but something I do know a bit more about was born alongside it. In

America at the present time a number of universities are working on the

question of the transformation of democracy within general philosophical

ideas, but also in sociological theory. There are various American

thinkers, the most famous of whom is Nozik, who have examined the

concept of a communitarian life without sanctions, without sentences and

without any instruments of repression. Why are they taking up this

problem? Obviously because these enlightened people realise that the

democratic structure as we know it cannot go on for long and they will

have to find another solution. They need to look and see how communities

could emerge without certain elements that are natural to the existence

of the State such as prison, the police, State control, etc.. This

debate is not something marginal, it is at the centre of political and

philosophical ideas in American universities. And in my opinion

abolitionism, correct me if I’m wrong, could be taken up by this

movement. But this is a question that needs to be gone into by someone

who knows more about it than me, I don’t want to say any more on the

subject.

Let’s say that this kind of problem, especially in theorists like

Nozik—there are also others but their names escape me at the moment—is

an indication of some of the practical needs of the management of power.

Evidently the historical model of democracy, for example Tocqueville’s

book, is no longer acceptable. That is not the democracy we’re talking

about. Other structures are required today. Take a country like China.

How will the future democracy of China be able to base itself on a model

such as Tocqueville’s? How could a parliament with twenty-six thousand

members function, for example? Impossible. They must find another way.

And they are working in that direction. We can also see a few signals

here in Italy, in a different sense. Institutional transformations, as

they say, that are the expression of the generalised malaise of

democracy. But also men of letters who seem far from democratic

cover-ups such as Foucault have given their contribution to the

perfectionment of prison and a rationalisation of the institutional

structure.

Concerning Foucault, we could say that, at least as far as I know given

that I know his work on the history of madness best, two basic lines of

thought run through his work: one relates to overcoming and the other to

maintaining a process in act. The result is that this theoretician

always leaves something ill-defined. In all his proposals, even that

concerning homosexuality, seen as both diversity and normality, it is

never clear what he actually opts for. Ambivalence is characteristic of

this thinker, and not only him but all those who are trying to keep

themselves on an even keel. Basically, for him the prison question

concerns an instrument whose use he is unsure about, he would like to do

away with it but does not have anything else to suggest other than

putting it in parenthesis. In fact, at a certain point, he gives the

example of the nave des folles, which was a prison, asylum, orphanage

and rest home for old prostitutes, all at once. He writes that the nave

aux folles was realised in a few days, that it takes very little time to

realise it. At a time when society was expelling individuals who are

different from certain cities (I’m not talking about homosexuals) it put

them outside the walls. And these individuals, not knowing what to do,

migrated from town to town, so at a given moment they were taken and put

on a ship, the ship of mad people. This ship started to sail from port

to port because nobody wanted it. A ship perpetually in movement. At

that moment prison was created, as well as the asylum, the orphanage and

rest homes for old prostitutes, because at that time society could no

longer tolerate their presence. Certain social functions had

disappeared: that of the madman, who in medieval society was seen as one

touched by God, and that of the beggar, who in Catholic countries was

the object of charity, the basis of Catholic christianity, don’t forget.

With the development of Protestantism, the beggar becomes an object of

capture, so had to be held separate. When society can no longer use him,

the figure of the beggar becomes superfluous. He disappears as the

receiver of charity to become a prisoner. Today, this society no longer

needs prison, the ‘thing’ prisoner must disappear. How do you do that?

By taking a ship and putting all the prisoners on it? But ‘the thing’

prisoner does not disappear when the ship becomes a prison, in the way

that the French did with those from the Paris Comune who were deported:

they put them into pontoons, boats moored at Le Havre, and people stayed

in them for 5 or 6 years, prisoners in a floating prison. Now society no

longer needs prisons, as some enlightened social theorists are saying,

so let’s transfer the prisoners to another social institution. That

would be the project seen from the abolitionist point of view. And here

Foucault’s discourse turns to perfection.

That’s what I wanted to say. Now let’s come back to the question of

attack for a moment. I am always for the specific attack. The specific

attack is important, not only for the results that it produces, not only

for the effects it produces, that we can see before our eyes... None of

us can claim to be functionalist, because if we were to fall into that

contradiction we wouldn’t do anything at all. So, first prisons need to

be understood, because we can’t do anything if we don’t understand the

reality we want to fight. Then they have to be made comprehensible to

others. Then they need to be attacked. There’s no other solution. They

must be attacked as such. These attacks contain nothing of the great

military operations that some imagine. I have always thought of these

attacks as a day out in the country. One says to oneself, ‘ I feel

hemmed in today, in this anarchist place, (frankly I find them a bit

depressing), and I want to go for a walk. Let’s not stay shut up in this

place, let’s go out for a walk’. By that, I don’t mean a student-like

attitude, because that’s stupid, but let’s just say without too much

drama; it’s always possible to go for a walk in the country, and it’s

not bad for your health.. And without spending too much time discussing

things and transforming a day in the country into a kind of crusade

against all oppressors past, present and future. No, something

pleasurable, a day in the country is an activity that must also give us

joy, but it is also something specific.

But prisons should also be attacked in the context of the struggle in

general, that is, in the course of any struggle that we manage to

undertake. And this is something that we have been saying for about ten

years. No matter what we are doing, or what we are talking about, we

must make prison a part of it, because prison is essential to any

discourse. When we are talking about living areas, health, etc., we must

find a way, and there is one, to include prison in what we are saying,

denouncing all attempts to muffle it’s potential to disturb social

peace.

Bear in mind that prison is an element in movement, as we have seen, it

is not something static and finite. For the enemy, prison is an element

of disturbance. They are all always thinking about what they can do to

solve the problem of prison. Now, their problem of prison must become

our problem and we must think about it during the struggles we carry

out, if we carry them out.

All this, of course, while awaiting the next insurrection. Because in

the case of insurrection it will be enough to open up the prisons and

destroy them for ever. Thank you.