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Title: Anarchy over the water Author: Nhat Hong Date: November 1980 Language: en Topics: Cienfuegos Press, Stuart Christie, interview Source: Retrieved on 16th May 2021 from https://www.katesharpleylibrary.net/7d7z0n Notes: Published in Soil of Liberty, Vol. 6 no 3., November 1980. Republished as an appendix to Islands of anarchy: Simian, Cienfuegos and Refract 1969â1987, an annotated bibliography by John Patten (2003) Posted on the Kate Sharpley Library website as a tribute to Stuart Christie (1946â2020)
Cienfuegos Press is an anarchist publishing project that for the last
eight years has made a startling variety of books, pamphlets and
magazines available to the English language reader. Its first book was
Sabate, the story of one part of the guerrilla war carried on by
anarchists against the Franco regime in Spain until the late 1950âs.
Man! , an edited collection of articles and poems from the U.S. journal
of the same name that published from 1933 until 1940 followed later. The
Press has since published many, many books and booklets including
Berkmanâs The Russian Tragedy, Albert Meltzerâs The International
Revolutionary Solidarity Movement, Gregory Maximoffâs The Guillotine at
Work, Pooleâs Land and Liberty: Anarchist Influences in the Mexican
Revolution, and Costantiniâs marvelous paintings reproduced in the Art
of Anarchy, to mention only a few of Cienfuegosâ books.
Cienfuegos has also managed to publish a good dozen or so pamphlets on
various subjects. And its Anarchist Review has grown from a small
catalog to a wide ranging, hefty magazine, full of articles and reviews
of broad interest to anarchists and others.
All of this adds up to quite an impressive achievement for a small
publisher. We at Soil of Liberty have long been grateful for Cienfuegosâ
efforts and have harbored a growing curiosity of who was the source of
all this energy and how did they do it? This spring we had a chance to
find out.
Stuart and Brenda Christie are the hub of Cienfuegos Press. It is from
their house âOver the Waterâ on the island of Sanday that the publishing
efforts are coordinated. Various comrades in different countries
collaborate with translations, writing and editorial work. Stuart and
Brenda arrange the technical aspects; typesetting, printing, binding,
distribution and not least, finances from their Orkney island outpost.
Stuart is not so fondly referred to by the British press as âBritainâs
leading, self-confessed anarchist.â He has received the attentions of
the state and its police from several countries in the last two decades.
In the early 60âs, at age 18, Stuart participated with Spanish
anarchists in an ill fated attempt on Francoâs life. The Spanish court
gave him a twenty year sentence after he was busted with a load of
plastique explosives and detonators.
Released after three and a half years because of international pressure,
he returned to Britain where he and other comrades began Black Cross, a
group to aid libertarian prisoners in Spain and other countries.
Stuart remained an object of grave interest to both British and Spanish
police. The years following his release were punctuated by subtle and
obvious harassment by the police. Among other things he has been
arrested for, my favorite is counterfeiting U. S. currency (actually an
anti-Vietnam leaflet with a rough facsimile of a dollar bill saying âOne
Lifeâ instead of one dollar). In 1971 Stuart was charged with a group of
seven others (Angry Brigade-Stoke Newington 8) with attacks on the Miss
World Beauty Contest, Spanish, British and U. S.
government buildings. After a four month trial Stuart was acquitted, but
four others were not so fortunate.
After the acquittal police told Stuart they were going âto get you next
time.â The harassment continued and made regular employment (as a gas
fitter for the British Gas Board) and normal life impossible for Stuart
and Brenda. To escape the harassment they moved to Sanday, an island off
the northern coast of Scotland with 500 people and no police. They moved
Cienfuegos Press with them, a project begun in 1972 with the dual
purpose of creating self employment (beyond the reach of politically
motivated sackings) and advancing the anarchist critique of the world we
live in. As a job, Cienfuegos is a hand to mouth source of income. As to
making the anarchist critique louder and clearer Stuart, Brenda and
Cienfuegosâ collaborators have done an admirable job.
Too loud and too clear for some. This summer Cienfuegos published a
manual for âPeopleâs Militiasâ and members of Britainâs parliament
exploded with righteous anger over this âhotbed of Anarchy in the
Orkneys.â
Newspaper headlines splashed âTerror Books Uproarâ across their pages.
Members of Parliament demanded the investigation (ie. destruction) of
the Militia book and Cienfuegos Press in June. So far Cienfuegos is
still at it (see review section), but distributors have refused to carry
their books and their main printer has refused to print anything of
theirs again. Thanks to all the publicity, the Militia book sold out its
first printing in large part to a new, non-anarchist audience including
trade union groups.
Daniel Shaw and I had a warm, very hospitable visit for five days in
April this year at âOver the Waterâ with Stuart, family and friends. We
agreed to an arrangement under which Soil of Liberty and Cienfuegos will
co-publish pamphlets together. The first one, The First Mayday: The
Speeches of Voltarine De Cleyre will be available November 1^(st). The
second, The Italian Resistance to Fascism will be available before the
end of the year.
I had the opportunity to spend a few hours on a rainy afternoon talking
with Stuart in the Cienfuegos office about various things. Part of that
conversation follows.
Nhat: One thing we have in the States is something of a split between
non-violent anarchists and anarchists who would employ various methods
in their activities.
Stuart: Well, I think thatâs probably more or less the situation in this
country at the moment. In the late 50âs and early 60âs the mainstream of
the anarchist movement was within the anti -war movement, you see, and
the Committee of 100. But from the late 60âs onward there was this split
with the pacifist movement and the activist section of the anarchist
movement. But that has since disappeared with decrease in militancy
generally. I mean when you have periods of peaks of militancy as you had
in the late 60âs, then it was more important to know where you stood,
where you were, a revolutionary activist or a pacifist. While weâre in
this trough at the moment the differences have really disappeared and
people do manage to plod along together. I donât think its really a
matter of any great importance as long as you know where people stand
and what you can count on them to do. They have their priorities and
other people⊠for example the pacifist has his priorities and I have my
priorities.
Nhat: It does get a little disappointing when they (pacifists) seem to
join your enemies and howl.
Stuart: Well, it can be disappointing, but personally speaking I find it
mainly, through my prison experiences that I just accept people for what
they are and donât expect things from people and donât get disappointed.
Nhat: Do you want to talk about your Spanish experience?
Stuart: Well, if you ask me some questions Iâll talk about it. Its very
much a thing in the past. It was interesting and useful for learning
about other people and more importantly learning about myself.
Nhat: You were quite young at the time.
Stuart: I just turned 18 at the time.
Nhat: There was a certain feeling that Sam Dolgoff mentioned, that at
the time a lot of people felt that you had been used. On reading your
book, The Christie File, you totally discount that.
Stuart: No, No. This was created mainly by the campaign run by Freedom
Press at the time. Being very liberal and bourgeois in their outlook,
they immediately assumed that I had been an innocent victim. But in fact
at the time of the trial I admitted my âguiltâ, but mitigated prior to
the trial that I had no knowledge of what I was carrying across the
frontier. Once I was in Spain I had opened the container and discovered
explosives and I was in a bit of a quandry as to what to do. I wasnât
very happy with the police, so I just decided to carry on with the
mission. But in fact that was just a story to tell. When youâre
confronted with the most notorious secret police force in the world your
mind ticks overtime trying to think up a plausible story, something they
will accept and which will give you an out at the same time. Freedom ran
the story that Iâd been used, that Iâd been given a batch of leaflets,
that I had been informed it was a parcel of leaflets, clandestine
leaflets, to take across the frontier, that I was an unwilling,
unknowing victim of some devious, conspiratorial group of anarchists in
Paris.
Of course that wasnât the case. I was well aware of what was going on.
In fact, I had volunteered to take part in any anti-Franco activities in
Spain.
Nhat: This was one in a long series of attempts on Francoâs life?
Stuart: Oh yeah. There were others in which other British people
participated as well. It just so happened I was the unfortunate one to
be caught. But it was useful in as much as my arrest and my sentence, my
plea in prison focused attention, the attention of Britain and western
Europe on the plight of political prisoners in Spain. So it was useful
in that respect.
Nhat: Upon getting out, you used that attention, in a sense, to form the
Anarchist Black Cross group?
Stuart; Yeah, well the only people, while I was in prison, who were
receiving any assistance at all from outside Spain were from the
Communist Party and Jehovahâs Witnesses. The anarchists were left to
rot. I suppose various small Trotskyist groups and socialistâŠ
Nhat: Even the exile movement in France didnât ...
Stuart: The majority of them didnât have a powerful exile movement.
Because the Trotskyists have so many varieties, they didnât really have
much.
Nhat: But the Libertarian exile movement didnât have a strong support of
libertarian prisoners in Spain?
Stuart: Oh yes. There was a very efficient infrastructure both within
and outside Spain. We would regularly receive money from the movement
inside Spain, prisoner aid campaign. But certainly within the English
speaking movement, there was no conscious attempt to help the
revolutionary prisoners within Spain. So we started the Black Cross.
Nhat: Which is still going?
Stuart: Which is still going, yeah. With different priorities at the
moment, due to the situation in Spain having changed radically and the
movement in Spain is perfectly capable of looking after its own
prisoners at the moment.
Nhat: What are the new priorities?
Stuart: As I say, there are the Persons Unknown trial in this country
and we tend to concentrate on prisoners in the States now an awful lot.
People write to us asking for prisoners whom they can write and offer
solidarity and financial support, whatever. And the majority of
addresses and names weâre passing on to them are in the States and
Ireland.
Nhat: Iâve noticed over the years a group in Chicago and more recently
in New York, groups that have called themselves Black Cross. Are they
connected with you?
Stuart: They are connected in as much as theyâve been doing a similar
type of thing as our Black Cross. But thereâs no formalization of
structure in Black Cross. We prefer to keep it small affinity groups.
Basically, Black Cross in London and Black Flag here acts as a clearing
house for information, so people donât duplicate efforts regarding
prisoners. But there is no formal structure.
Nhat: You had some interesting comments earlier on anarchists trying to
build up paper organizations and driving for large memberships. Youâre
thought on it was that it wasnât the most efficient way of spending your
time.
Stuart: Yeah, well. People come into the anarchist movement from other
radical and socialist movements and they tend to hang on to those
organizational attitudes they had while in the previous organization.
They tend to despair of the apparent lack of organization and discipline
within the anarchist movement. They seem to believe problems will be
resolved by building up a strong organization with a large membership on
paper. Once they pass a magical number, reach a saturation point, the
revolution will be achieved. It doesnât work that way.
Basically its just a form of frustration on their part. They divert all
their energies into building an organization as opposed to
propagandizing and politicizing people at their place of work.
Nhat: The CNT, however is a definite organization.
Stuart: The CNT is a trade union organization. The reason for the split
up at the moment, and I think the CNT at the moment is unfortunately
making one of its last gasps for life before it splits up completely. It
sort of looks that way. The problem is, at least one of the problems is
that people are confused as to what the CNT is. The CNT is essentially a
trade union. Its not an anarchist organization or a political party. Its
a trade union. As such there are people with a whole spectrum of
political and social opinions within it. And there should be room for
people with different opinions within it, in a trade union, particularly
an anarcho-syndicalist one. Trotskyists trying to infiltrate it, the
exiled FAI in Toulouse trying to take control and I think its probably a
matter of time before the whole thing disintegrates completely.
Nhat: Because of the confusion over its function as a trade union?
Stuart: Thats one of the reasons, but there are also the power struggles
in it. The specifically anarchist, some of whom, unfortunately are
acting like fascists at the moment, physically attacking people with
whom they disagree. That is symptomatic of the malaise that is spread
throughout the CNT at the moment. I canât actually give you chapter and
verse of all the problems its facing at the moment. Weâre still very
much in the dark and we get many different stories from Spain. Hopefully
in the next couple weeks weâll get some reasonably informed information
from people inside and outside Spain.
Nhat: One of the questions I had before coming here was why you were up
in the Orkney islands?
Stuart: Well, it wasnât so much why the Orkneys. We were around at a
friendâs house one evening and a friend of theirs came by and during the
course of the conversation it came up that he had a house for sale in
Orkney.
This was his house and he had lived and worked here. It was something
new, so I pricked up my ears and Brenda and I decided to come up and
have a look at the place. We liked it and moved up. The other reason was
that we were in severe financial difficulties in Huddersfield at the
time and we worked it out so we could sell the house in Huddersfield,
cover the costs of moving, pay for a deposit for this house and have a
substantial amount left to cover some of the debts of Cienfuegos Press,
or part of the debts. So thatâs basically why Cienfuegos is in Orkney
and it canât afford to get out of it now.
Nhat: Cienfuegos was started 4â5 years ago ?
Stuart: It was started when I got out of prison in â72, winter of â72.
The reason we started the press was basically because I couldnât get a
job anywhere else. No one would employ me after the Angry Brigade case.
The Gas Board, whom I had been working for earlier on the gas conversion
program, wouldnât re-employ me. Actually I was working for a
sub-contractor and the Gas Board told the sub-contractor that under no
circumstances could I be re-employed. And while I had been in prison I
had translated Sabate and while hawking it around to various publishers
and publishing houses in London I discovered nobody wanted to touch
anarchist literature. They thought it was uncommercial and there was no
market for it. I thought otherwise and decided to publish it ourselves.
I thought it was time we had an anarchist publishing house, an English
language anarchist publishing house in this country. Basically thatâs
how Cienfuegos started. The initial printing of Sabate was done on
credit.
The second book we did was Man! and it was financed mainly by Marcus
Graham, the original editor of Man!
From there weâve just published one book after another. Each book paying
for the following book. But its usually stumbling from one financial
crisis to the next.
Nhat: How many titles have you come out with since youâve started?
Stuart: About 35 or 36. Hopefully by the end of the year it will be up
around 50. I donât quite know how weâll pay for them, but it should be
around that many. The other idea for Cienfuegos was while we were on
holiday in Italy. We were staying with a comrade Franco Keggio [Leggio]
in Ragusa, Sicily who had been publishing, running an active publishing
house. He worked six months in the fields and the other six months he
spends publishing books, mainly through his own income from working as
an agricultural laborer. I thought if Franco could do it, and heâs been
doing it for 20 years, there was no reason why we shouldnât do it.
Nhat: The only other people who publish anarchist stuff in England is
Freedom?
Stuart: They donât publish on a large scale as far as books are
concerned. They arenât concerned with publishing new anarchist material.
They only try to keep in print the anarchist classics. Theyâre not even
particularly successful at that.
Nhat: Iâve always been pleased with Cienfuegos because they have always
come out with things I havenât seen elsewhere in English.
Stuart: Thatâs what we try to do. Freedom wouldnât publish anything that
had not been established. I think the reason for that is the
organizational set up at Freedom Press that is controlled by Vernon
Richards. They are not prepared to, because of the property owning
structure there. The person who is financially responsible there is
Vernon Richards, the editor. He is the one that makes the decisions.
They are just not prepared to risk the Press or the property they have
in printing books that may or may not sell. Also they are not geared up
to it. They donât use multicolored covers, in case they can be called
sensationalized or trying to sensationalize anarchism or personalize it.
I think they even objected to a line drawing of Rudolf Rocker on one of
the booklets they did.
They thought it pandered to the cult of the personality. But as I say,
thatâs one aspect of Freedom Press.
Certainly they have done a good job keeping good anarchist classics in
print. But they are living very much in the past. Itâs time we had some
new material for English readers that is new and original, Nhat: And
which is also helpful in getting a sense of the international situation.
Stuart: Exactly. People in the past have mainly concentrated on
historical issues. But the reason for this is not because we are living
in the past, but for people to have some sense of continuity in the
struggles we are facing today, which are the same struggles that were
faced 50 or a 100 years ago. I think itâs good that people have a sense
of continuity, one link in a chain.
Nhat: Without sacrificing imagination on how to deal with the situation
today.
Stuart: What weâre hoping to do now is to expand more into contemporary
theory so that we can provide an alternative to the various marxist
groupsâ publications, because weâre sadly lacking in contemporary
material, theoretical material. Good, readable theoretical material and
criticisms of Marxism. Basically providing people with solutions which
face people in modern society. So thatâs what we are hoping to do in the
future.
Nhat: You seem fairly well set up to do that. How does it work
editorially? It seems you have people all over who cooperate.
Stuart: This is the strength of Cienfuegos. Basically all Iâm doing is
acting as a clearinghouse here. For example, our Cienfuegos files give
us access to lots of people who have skills and talents which would be
lost to the movement. We can get translations done for stuff that comes
over from France and Spain. I can send it off to a translator who isnât
doing anything at that particular moment and he sends the translations
back. We get it typed up and copy edited by someone else. Basically
thatâs all my function is, to act as a clearinghouse for stuff that
comes in and coordinating and organizing the printing and binding and so
on. And most importantly, juggling with the money that isnât available.
People are constantly amazed at the stuff we put out. They must think
weâre financed from Moscow. But in fact its all done with the magic word
credit.
Nhat: You do have a subscribers service?
Stuart: Perhaps 400 subscribers now. Really we need to boost that to
around a thousand. For example, a subscription this year is $40.00 this
year. The books that will be made available through the book service
will be, certainly in the region of 70â80 dollars. And thatâs not
including postage, which is a hefty part of the cost. So subscribers are
getting books at a considerable discount.
Nhat: In the past youâve been plagued by a lot of police harassment.
Stuart: Yeah, but there has been no harassment here. Had I remained in
London or Yorkshire, then Iâd almost certainly been framed on some
charge or other. In fact the recent Persons Unknown case, in Stuart
Carrâs statement, the police made quite obvious attempts to get Carr to
name me as being one of the prime movers in the conspiracy.
Nhat: That was one thing I thought of while reading about the Persons
Unknown case in the States, that you being in Orkney helped you from
getting pulled into the conspiracy charge.
Stuart: Most definitely. Without a doubt. I was told by an inspector of
the Special Branch immediately after the Angry Brigade case that it was
only a matter of time before they finally did fit me up. They had made
so many mistakes in the past, that next time they would make it
impossible for me to get out.
Nhat: Why donât you explain the Angry Brigade case. Was it in the late
60âs?
Stuart: The first action of the Angry Brigade was in 1969. Basically it
was an extension of the International Revolutionary Solidarity Movement,
the First of May groups, an anarchist international organization which
carried out actions against embassies and government buildings
throughout Europe and also the States. The Angry Brigade I suppose could
be called the British section of the International Revolutionary
Solidarity Movement. They carried out a number of bombing⊠propaganda
campaigns, none them involved deaths or the possibility of injuries to
any innocent or guilty victims. It was purely propaganda.
Nhat: Against property?
Stuart: Yeah, against property and against policies of the Conservative
Party. Mainly against the attempts to control the trade union movement
in the early 70âs by Edward Heath. So the actual Angry Brigade lasted
say two years â two and a half years, from early 1969 until the arrest
in 1971 of the Stoke Newington 8. The trial itself was probably the
longest trial in British history. We were held in Brixton prison for 18
months.
Nhat: Without bail?
Stuart: Without bail and it was the longest trial, for that time anyway,
in British judicial history. The end result was that four were acquitted
and four were sent down for ten years each. The jury asked for clemency.
If the jury hadnât asked for clemency the probable sentences would have
been in the region of 15 to 20 years. Jake Prescott, who had been tried
earlier and convicted and who was alleged to have committed a minimal
part in the conspiracy (in as much the only thing he was accused of
having done was address a communique from the Angry Brigade) and he was
given 15 years. So the main protagonists who were the ones in the Stoke
Newington trial, they would have certainly received between 15â25 years.
Nhat: You were found innocent in this case?
Stuart: Yeah, I was found innocent.
Nhat: Did you have further trouble with the police after that point?
Stuart: No, it would have been very difficult for them to actually do
anything, because during the trial we made
[it] so obvious that Iâd been under surveillance almost 24 hours a day
for periods up to 3 and 4 months. And they could produce no actual
forensic evidence against me; written evidence or verbal evidence that
would involve me in the Angry Brigade case. It was all pure supposition
and basically it was a conspiracy.
Nhat: A police conspiracy?
Stuart: No, the charge was conspiracy and they didnât actually have to
prove what they couldnât prove. Thatâs why they made it a conspiracy
charge. They couldnât prove there was any actual direct involvement in
any of the charges alleged against me. So they fell back on the old
conspiracy charge which is very similar to the Nazi law of a priori
culpability. You just kind of see who could have done it, therefore he
probably did do it. So you should convict. And this was basically the
essence of the evidence against me.
Nhat: Are the four out of prison?
Stuart: Theyâve all been released. John Barker was released two years
ago. Heâs now writing a book for Cienfuegos of prison stories called
Tales From the Time Tunnel. Jim Greenfield is working as a carpenter in
London. Chris Bott is on Social Security and the two women I think have
more or less dropped out. The only one who is active in any sort of way,
I mean the only one who is still politically active is John Barker. The
others have just gone their own ways. But then again John Barker was
always the prime, main charismatic character in that particular
friendship group.
Nhat: Earlier you said anarchist activity or the anarchist movement was
kind of in a trough, a kind of downturn in activity.
Stuart: Well, I think people are moving away from the concept of the
national organization sort of thing and they are very much involved in
local politics, which is I think what every anarchist and anarchist
group should be primarily concerned with spreading the idea within their
own communities, the places where they work. Not preaching or trying to
win converts to anarchism, but basically to create agitprop situations
where they gain the respect of the people they live and work with,
slowly but surely making people aware that there are other answer to
problems other than the authoritarian ones and that anarchism and
libertarian ideas do provide a solution.
Nhat: Often the local, community issues can be quite large.
Stuart: Very much so. For example in Swansea the local anarchist paper
sells 5,000 copies weekly for one or two pence. It got an amazing
circulation. It was one thing anarchists were doing in Swansea. It
wasnât a specifically anarchist paper. It just so happened anarchists
were involved in it. I think weâre doing some thing similar up here with
the Free Winged Eagle. Its finding its own level as well. People are
beginning to expect and find that they can use it as an alternative to
the Orcadian (the conservative weekly âservingâ the Orkney islands).
Nhat: Plus you have a big battle up here over uranium mining.
Stuart: There was a confrontation last year. The opposition was so total
that the government was forced to hold an inquiry. But nothing has been
decided as yet. The whole project to mine uranium has been shelved for
the moment. It hasnât been abandoned, it has been shelved. But no doubt
as the requirement for uranium becomes greater the central government
will over ride any opposition from the local community or local council,
and at that time, thatâs when weâll have a major physical confrontation
if the government decides to push it. I find it very difficult to see
how the government can do it. Mainly because this is an island community
and the inhabitants are sorely opposed to mining uranium. It would be
different on the mainland. There is less of a sense of community. But
here Orkney begins at the pier. Anybody coming in would require some
degree of cooperation from local inhabitants. If they donât have that
cooperation and have active antagonism, a lot of people have threatened
direct action and these are normally conservative farmers and farm
workers and small businessmen. Certain feelings have been voiced that
should popular opinion be overruled and ignored, that they would then
take direct action.
Nhat: Itâs impressive to go through some of the towns and see No Uranium
stickers in every shop window.
Stuart: Yeah, well I think the government abandoned it and hoped that it
will just die down and that in the meantime something will happen to
change peopleâ minds. Like, for example, the recent increases in diesel
generated electricity increased by 17 and one half percent plus a 3% per
unit surcharge. No doubt sometime this will be used as an excuse to
justify the introduction of uranium mining as a source of cheap power.
Nhat: What about the question of violence employed by the anarchist
movement?
Stuart: The question of violence should be one of common sense. You
certainly donât convince anyone by violence, ramming ideas down their
throats and banging them over the head. But there are always situations
when common sense dictates when violence is called for and when it
shouldnât be. But I donât think it should be made into the level of
dogma. If someone is threatening to kill you, imprison, torture you and
youâve no out, youâve exhausted all⊠I mean once consensus politics goes
down the drain, there is no longer any possibility of an exchange of
ideas or reaching a compromise. There is no room for a discussion or
opposition, then youâve obviously got to start thinking of protecting
your interests by other methods.
Nhat: With regard to events in Germany and the SLA in the States, I have
trouble juggling my criticisms with some of the things theyâve done and
not wanting to be real public about it, because they are at the wrong
end of the stateâs stick. Itâs not the method of violence, it just seems
that in the situation, for example in the SLAâs case, it was a bad case
of welfare thinking in a sense.
Stuart: They were definitely being elitist, as was the Red Army Fraction
and most of the other Marxist-Leninist groups. But remember they are
Marxist-Leninist groups. They have an authoritarian ideology and their
whole attitude is patronizing in an attempt to create or cause
situations which they think will lead to a revolutionary situation. They
think revolutionary situations can be created artificially. They canât.
But the important thing to remember with the SLA is that in fact none of
them were anarchists. They became anarchists while in prison and they
realized, all of them, certainly Joe Remeiro and Russ Little, where they
made the mistakes. They said this after they read the International
Revolutionary Solidarity Movement booklet. The Angry Brigade and the
First of May Group are the best examples of, not proper revolutionary
violence, but at least common sensical.
Obviously you donât want to use violence when itâs counter productive.
When you start blowing things up or shooting people or intimidating
people, then you have the whole force weight of the press and media
against you and anything you say will be misinterpreted. So it has to be
very carefully thought out before hand. In the case of the First of May
Group, they chose their targets very carefully, so that they couldnât be
misinterpreted. I think this was very successful. They carried out the
kidnapping of Ussia, who was a priest at the Vatican in 1966. The
reaction to it was one of opposition to Franco. The same thing with the
kidnapping of Elias, the first kidnapping on mainland Europe, in 1963.
All six kidnappers walked from the court free men because they had the
sympathy of the people of Italy. You must remember at the time the
opposition to Franco was so great. You have to weigh the object of the
exercise against public opinion. It is a very fine line. For example, in
this current situation at the moment, it would be silly to go out and
shoot Margaret Thatcher. It would be not so silly to go out and pie her.
No, I think on the question of violence the situation has to be quite
clear cut and you have to be satisfied yourself that there are no other
options open.
Nhat: And a proper social situation where the opposition is already
there and you are highlighting it?
Stuart: Yeah, but there are other situations where the social situation
doesnât exist. Where it is maybe a last desperate statement when you
feel there is nothing left for you to do. Youâre not prepared to
compromise your ideals or beliefs, so you either commit acts of violence
against yourself, bombing yourself or someone else or a building. That
develops out of frustration. But there is always the hope that that
might have a cumulative effect and people say Stop, even for a fraction
of a minute, Stop and question their perhaps uncritical attitude towards
what is happening in the world around them.
Nhat: One of the greatest benefits Cienfuegos has had in my case is
making available the history of the Spanish resistance after the end of
the civil war.
Stuart: Itâs lost, you know. Thatâs what I was saying about providing
some continuity so that militants today can appreciate it. A lot of
people think they are on their own, that what is happening here and now
has never happened before. It may be a bit agit-propese, but its always
useful for people to see how other people, how anarchists in previous
generations suffered, gave up their lives and freedom for the idea.
Weâre doing Facerias, thatâs been typeset. I donât know if weâll do the
printing (or if it will be done in the States). Have you read Sabate?
Nhat: Yeah.
Stuart: Well, this is a much more detailed history of the urban
guerrilla movement in Spain from 1939 to 1957 and also gives a very
interesting background to the CNT in clandestinity and its relationship
with the exterior. A lot of people might find this a bit boring. But the
other interesting thing is the history of the anarchists in exile in the
struggle against Nazism. For example, Crete was taken almost entirely by
Spanish Republican exiles.
Montgomeryâs 8^(th) Army, whole sections of them were Spanish
Republicans and anarchists. Most of the networks⊠Leclerc. Have you ever
seen the documentary newsreel taken of General Leclerc in Paris? It
shows quite often on old newsreels from the war. If you look closely at
the armored cars going into Paris youâll see Durruti, Ascasco, Guipuzcoa
and Guernica painted on the armored cars. This is never mentioned. The
resistance networks in the south of France were almost exclusively
anarchist, socialist and communist. And yet in the official history of
the French occupation, a 700 page work, there are about two lines given
over to the role played by the Spanish exiles. And it says in the south
of France there were some Spanish groups! For example, the group Reseau
Pat OâLeary which was the major escape and sabotage group in the south
of France, that was in fact a group run by a Spanish anarchist called
Ponzan. Yet it is totally ignored.