gemini - kennedy.gemi.dev

💾 Archived View for gemini.ctrl-c.club › ~phoebos › logs › kisslinux-2021-06-02.txt captured on 2023-01-29 at 03:55:35.
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[2021-06-02T00:01:13Z] <acheam> there is also my logs, irclogs.armaanb.net
[2021-06-02T00:01:17Z] <acheam> hi riteo 
[2021-06-02T00:01:34Z] <riteo> oh cool!
[2021-06-02T00:02:06Z] <acheam> ugh just spent 2hrs recovering from me deleting a stupid file on my VPS and not keeping backups
[2021-06-02T00:02:16Z] <midfavila> shoulda used nilfs2
[2021-06-02T00:02:18Z] <acheam> "lesson learned", he says, as he proceeds to not take backups
[2021-06-02T00:02:19Z] <midfavila> smh my head, acheam
[2021-06-02T00:02:34Z] <riteo> acheam they don't work though :(
[2021-06-02T00:02:43Z] <acheam> uh
[2021-06-02T00:02:49Z] <acheam> I guess I didn't fully recover yet
[2021-06-02T00:02:49Z] <acheam> lol
[2021-06-02T00:02:50Z] <acheam> one sec
[2021-06-02T00:03:02Z] <riteo> oh that's the file you deleted lmao
[2021-06-02T00:03:09Z] <acheam> no I deleted a networking file
[2021-06-02T00:03:12Z] <acheam> then migrated to a new VPS
[2021-06-02T00:03:21Z] <acheam> but the migration might be rough around the edges
[2021-06-02T00:03:24Z] <acheam> like that not working
[2021-06-02T00:03:37Z] <riteo> oh I see
[2021-06-02T00:03:59Z] <riteo> btw also the git repo linked in that page doesn't exist
[2021-06-02T00:04:24Z] <acheam> ah another issue in the migration
[2021-06-02T00:04:25Z] <acheam> yipee
[2021-06-02T00:04:47Z] <riteo> well, what's a migration without some issues?
[2021-06-02T00:04:58Z] <riteo> it's the salt and pepper of life
[2021-06-02T00:04:58Z] <acheam> okay repo missing is fixed onw
[2021-06-02T00:07:01Z] <acheam> huh, for some reason the -D flag in scoop isn't working....
[2021-06-02T00:11:20Z] <acheam> yeah I don't have time to fix this
[2021-06-02T00:25:08Z] <acheam> test
[2021-06-02T00:25:37Z] <midfavila> tset
[2021-06-02T00:26:41Z] <acheam> okay logs are fixed
[2021-06-02T00:26:51Z] <acheam> they'll be sparse for today because of all the VPS issues though
[2021-06-02T00:27:03Z] <riteo> thanks a lot!
[2021-06-02T00:29:07Z] <acheam> zr: any chance we could maybe remove the chanserv message?
[2021-06-02T00:29:09Z] <acheam> like, its funny
[2021-06-02T00:29:14Z] <acheam> but maybe its a bit much now
[2021-06-02T00:29:55Z] <midfavila> change it to "Heil Private Internet Access"
[2021-06-02T00:32:18Z] <riteo> yes
[2021-06-02T00:32:27Z] <riteo> time to change evil lords I guess
[2021-06-02T00:40:23Z] <acheam> lol this OBS commit
[2021-06-02T00:40:27Z] <acheam> https://github.com/obsproject/obs-studio/commit/8421051831b7f3bb5c1254dc6c21d3706ca96bea
[2021-06-02T00:46:34Z] <acheam> fun fact: Firefox 2.0 required a 233Mhz perntium, and 64 MB of ram
[2021-06-02T00:46:38Z] <acheam> https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/2.0/system-requirements/
[2021-06-02T00:47:13Z] <midfavila> perntium
[2021-06-02T00:47:22Z] <midfavila> with ermermexx technerlergee
[2021-06-02T00:47:30Z] <acheam> ehrf you know bad
[2021-06-02T00:47:38Z] <acheam> you know I type bad*
[2021-06-02T00:47:38Z] <acheam> lol
[2021-06-02T00:47:46Z] <midfavila> lmfao
[2021-06-02T00:47:50Z] <midfavila> perntium should be wotd
[2021-06-02T00:48:05Z] <riteo> ermermexx technerlergee
[2021-06-02T00:48:11Z] <riteo> I love these words
[2021-06-02T00:48:25Z] <midfavila> my vocabulary is nothing short of amazing.
[2021-06-02T00:48:29Z] <midfavila> #humblebrag
[2021-06-02T00:48:40Z] <riteo> acheam you didn't write badly, you got possessed by a superior being
[2021-06-02T00:49:10Z] <midfavila> chris-chan themselves possessed acheam
[2021-06-02T00:50:17Z] <acheam> /msg chanserv topic #kisslinux KISS Linux | https://k1sslinux.org | /msg zr
[2021-06-02T00:50:17Z] <acheam>     for kisslinux/* cloaks | logs: https://gemini.ctrl-c.club/~phoebos/logs/ | word of the day: "perntium"
[2021-06-02T00:50:20Z] <acheam> uh
[2021-06-02T00:50:23Z] <acheam> did that send in channel?
[2021-06-02T00:50:38Z] <midfavila> it did not
[2021-06-02T00:50:45Z] <acheam> coolio
[2021-06-02T00:50:51Z] <midfavila> there you go.
[2021-06-02T00:50:59Z] <riteo> lmao
[2021-06-02T00:51:04Z] <midfavila> although it's missing a double-quote
[2021-06-02T00:51:10Z] <riteo> it only makes it better
[2021-06-02T00:51:11Z] <midfavila> unterminated string, acheam!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[2021-06-02T00:51:14Z] <acheam> ugh
[2021-06-02T00:51:20Z] <midfavila> fucking disgusting
[2021-06-02T00:51:26Z] <midfavila> you spend how many hours a day writing shellcode
[2021-06-02T00:51:32Z] <midfavila> can't even remember your quotes
[2021-06-02T00:51:35Z] <midfavila> s m h
[2021-06-02T00:52:11Z] <midfavila> unrelated, but geez, I really need to get one of those book stands.
[2021-06-02T00:52:18Z] <midfavila> you know, the ones that hold them open while you read.
[2021-06-02T00:52:38Z] <midfavila> so many of my books are either awkwardly shaped or absurdly heavy
[2021-06-02T00:57:44Z] <midfavila> ...speaking of awkwardly shaped and absurdly heavy
[2021-06-02T00:57:53Z] <midfavila> turns out that the implementation of Scheme used in HtDP is Racket
[2021-06-02T00:57:56Z] * midfavila groans
[2021-06-02T00:59:27Z] <riteo> guys I'm sorry, I had to do it
[2021-06-02T00:59:29Z] <riteo> http://0x0.st/-2nU.png
[2021-06-02T00:59:52Z] <midfavila> the strongest processor
[2021-06-02T01:00:53Z] <riteo> time to buy a pentium pc only to stick it on top of it
[2021-06-02T01:01:16Z] <midfavila> if you get a custom badge, make it one of those nice engraved metal badges
[2021-06-02T01:01:23Z] <midfavila> you know, like noctua includes with their fans
[2021-06-02T01:01:43Z] <midfavila> or a gel badge, for the authentic late '90s early '00s experience
[2021-06-02T01:02:06Z] <riteo> this is surely on my things-i'll-never-be-able-to-do-but-that-i'll-still-try-for-no-reason
[2021-06-02T01:02:23Z] <riteo> see you in 3 years with my epic pentium setup only for a meme gel badge
[2021-06-02T01:02:43Z] <midfavila> i mean, i put together an epic xeon setup only for a meme case badge.
[2021-06-02T01:02:47Z] <midfavila> so like, it's totally doable.
[2021-06-02T01:02:51Z] <riteo> lmao, really?
[2021-06-02T01:03:01Z] <midfavila> well yes, but actually no
[2021-06-02T01:03:31Z] <midfavila> i do have a xeon setup that I would consider pretty epic, and it was partially for the meme, but I also run a lot of VMs in parallel 
[2021-06-02T01:03:44Z] <midfavila> and also being able to compile LLVM before the heat death of the universe is nice
[2021-06-02T01:04:00Z] <riteo> oh, in how much time can you compile it?
[2021-06-02T01:04:08Z] <midfavila> like seven minutes 
[2021-06-02T01:04:10Z] <riteo> BRUH
[2021-06-02T01:04:18Z] <midfavila> at O3 with a bunch of optimizations, fwiw
[2021-06-02T01:04:42Z] <riteo> it took, like, half a day on my ryzen 5 2600 and a shitton of RAM
[2021-06-02T01:04:51Z] <riteo> I had literally to setup a 60GB swap file
[2021-06-02T01:04:58Z] * midfavila flexes in dual Xeons and 32gb of ECC memory
[2021-06-02T01:05:13Z] <midfavila> now go compile GFORTRAN
[2021-06-02T01:05:20Z] <riteo> what's that?
[2021-06-02T01:05:25Z] <midfavila> GNU FORTRAN
[2021-06-02T01:05:38Z] <midfavila> i still have nightmares about building it from scratch
[2021-06-02T01:05:41Z] * midfavila shudders
[2021-06-02T01:05:59Z] <midfavila> it's one of those programs that requires so much memory for each makejob that parallel builds are basically impossible
[2021-06-02T01:07:10Z] <riteo> my terminal froze for no reason
[2021-06-02T01:07:10Z] <riteo> epic
[2021-06-02T01:07:20Z] <midfavila> what terminal
[2021-06-02T01:07:25Z] <midfavila> i need to know so I can bully you
[2021-06-02T01:07:32Z] <riteo> oh you don't wanna know
[2021-06-02T01:07:33Z] <riteo> trust me
[2021-06-02T01:07:50Z] <midfavila> kitty or terminator
[2021-06-02T01:07:54Z] <riteo> I'm not changing my pc configuration until I switch to kiss
[2021-06-02T01:07:59Z] <riteo> and it's 1 year old
[2021-06-02T01:08:04Z] <riteo> worse mid, worse
[2021-06-02T01:08:15Z] <midfavila> gasp
[2021-06-02T01:08:15Z] <riteo> far far far worse, it was the terminal I started with mid
[2021-06-02T01:08:17Z] <midfavila> you can't mean
[2021-06-02T01:08:21Z] <riteo> yes I mean
[2021-06-02T01:08:23Z] <midfavila> gnome-terminal?
[2021-06-02T01:08:34Z] * riteo nods
[2021-06-02T01:08:45Z] * midfavila loads the shotgun
[2021-06-02T01:08:49Z] <riteo> I'm sorry mid
[2021-06-02T01:08:51Z] <midfavila> make this easy on us both
[2021-06-02T01:08:58Z] <midfavila> it's better this way, riteo.
[2021-06-02T01:09:29Z] <riteo> I'm really really sorry mid
[2021-06-02T01:09:42Z] <midfavila> it's too late. you've sinned.
[2021-06-02T01:09:49Z] <midfavila> nothing can possibly redeem you at this point
[2021-06-02T01:09:55Z] <midfavila> the taint of GNOME has touched your soul.
[2021-06-02T01:10:29Z] <riteo> actually for a brief instant long ago I was almost entering into that hellscape just to build a shitty GTK program
[2021-06-02T01:10:40Z] <riteo> luckily I never gotten past their shitty IDE and I saved myself
[2021-06-02T01:10:51Z] <riteo> I know what can make everything better though
[2021-06-02T01:10:56Z] <midfavila> using xterm
[2021-06-02T01:11:05Z] <riteo> no
[2021-06-02T01:11:11Z] <riteo> While I was looking for gfortran I found this artpiece
[2021-06-02T01:11:16Z] <riteo> http://0x0.st/-2nD.jpg
[2021-06-02T01:11:30Z] <riteo> I really thought I had to share it with all of you
[2021-06-02T01:11:41Z] * midfavila blinks
[2021-06-02T01:11:45Z] <midfavila> did you click?
[2021-06-02T01:11:52Z] <riteo> obviously
[2021-06-02T01:11:59Z] <riteo> how could you not click to "free microsoft office"
[2021-06-02T01:12:05Z] <riteo> "Click below to download"
[2021-06-02T01:12:22Z] <midfavila> excellent, now libreoffice can incorporate all of Office's features
[2021-06-02T01:12:30Z] <midfavila> this is the power of GNU
[2021-06-02T01:12:47Z] <riteo> yes
[2021-06-02T01:13:12Z] <riteo> btw I swear, I'll switch to a way simpler terminal once I switch to KISS
[2021-06-02T01:13:32Z] <riteo> also because who tf would want to package something this messed up on an ultra minimalist Linux distro
[2021-06-02T01:13:53Z] <midfavila> honestly, GTK terminals would be slightly less cancer if they didn't all rely on libvte
[2021-06-02T01:13:58Z] <midfavila> vte makes me want to shoot myself
[2021-06-02T01:14:03Z] <midfavila> it's so bad
[2021-06-02T01:15:18Z] <midfavila> i want to write my own terminal eventually
[2021-06-02T01:15:22Z] <riteo> cool
[2021-06-02T01:15:38Z] <midfavila> probably implement as minimal of a subset of vt100 as I can get away with
[2021-06-02T01:16:24Z] <riteo> I really have no idea how virtual terminals work
[2021-06-02T01:16:40Z] <midfavila> ngl,
[2021-06-02T01:16:41Z] <midfavila> neither do I
[2021-06-02T01:16:59Z] <midfavila> writing actually useful programs is deep wizardry to me
[2021-06-02T01:17:10Z] <midfavila> this is something I aim to correct this summer
[2021-06-02T01:17:11Z] <acheam> > he uses gnome
[2021-06-02T01:17:13Z] <riteo> like, why do a lot of terminal emulators emulate a lot of old terminals and what not
[2021-06-02T01:17:18Z] <riteo> no acheam I don't use gnome
[2021-06-02T01:17:24Z] <riteo> I only use its terminal because I'm a dumbass
[2021-06-02T01:17:31Z] <midfavila> riteo because you never know when you might encounter a tektronix 4004 program
[2021-06-02T01:17:36Z] <midfavila> obviously
[2021-06-02T01:18:18Z] <riteo> also because I can't nor want to change system configuration until I switch to kiss, it would be only more work because what if tomorrow prices of gpus fall back to -400% of their current price?
[2021-06-02T01:18:33Z] <midfavila> just ignore GPUs
[2021-06-02T01:18:38Z] <riteo> midfavilla: are there even nowadays programs made expecially for a terminal type?
[2021-06-02T01:18:44Z] <midfavila> no
[2021-06-02T01:18:50Z] <midfavila> not afaik
[2021-06-02T01:18:59Z] <midfavila> but that's because everyone just uses vt100 as a standard
[2021-06-02T01:19:17Z] <riteo> midfavilla: RE: GPUs I really can't, I got a shit NVIDIA GPU because I bought this pc for windows a few years ago because I was stupid
[2021-06-02T01:19:28Z] <midfavila> use integrated
[2021-06-02T01:19:35Z] <midfavila> get a GPU when it's more reasonable
[2021-06-02T01:19:42Z] <riteo> I wish I had an integrated GPU
[2021-06-02T01:19:57Z] <acheam> most programs dont care what terminal theyre in because they use a library that handles it for them
[2021-06-02T01:19:58Z] <riteo> I just like, bought the cheapest most decent ryzen CPU I could find
[2021-06-02T01:19:59Z] <midfavila> imagine not having a matrox pilot g200 built into your motherboard
[2021-06-02T01:20:01Z] <midfavila> what a dweeb
[2021-06-02T01:20:17Z] <riteo> ehh I know
[2021-06-02T01:20:20Z] <riteo> I got normie hardware
[2021-06-02T01:20:35Z] <midfavila> >he doesn't use obscure server tech
[2021-06-02T01:20:40Z] <midfavila> why do you even own a computer
[2021-06-02T01:20:40Z] <midfavila> smh
[2021-06-02T01:20:45Z] <riteo> this summer I'll surely get one of those laptops you talked to me about some time ago
[2021-06-02T01:20:52Z] <riteo> btw gtg real quick, brb
[2021-06-02T01:21:00Z] <midfavila> if you can get a cf-c2 you totally should
[2021-06-02T01:21:06Z] <midfavila> they're awesomazing
[2021-06-02T01:21:46Z] <midfavila> that reminds me, I need to add a section to my site detailing my hardware in-depth and all of its quirks...
[2021-06-02T01:23:21Z] <acheam> mid still waiting on you to write that terminal
[2021-06-02T01:23:30Z] <midfavila> can I learn C first
[2021-06-02T01:23:32Z] <midfavila> >:c
[2021-06-02T01:24:02Z] <acheam> oh that message sent latei've come to automatically dislike people who call themselves open source enthusiasts
[2021-06-02T01:24:35Z] <acheam> i've seen multiple people call themselves that, who proceed to use Apple products, GitHub, Twitter, etc
[2021-06-02T01:24:37Z] <midfavila> anyone who champions open source is a corporate shill or a tool
[2021-06-02T01:24:45Z] <midfavila> intentionally or not
[2021-06-02T01:25:02Z] <midfavila> open source was *literally* created as a way to cozy up to suits
[2021-06-02T01:25:07Z] <noocsharp> i love open source software as long as it's free
[2021-06-02T01:25:17Z] <midfavila> if it's free software, call it free software
[2021-06-02T01:25:23Z] <noocsharp> indeed
[2021-06-02T01:25:25Z] <midfavila> otherwise, it's proprietary
[2021-06-02T01:25:30Z] <acheam> perhaps only esr got it right... as it says on his homepage
[2021-06-02T01:25:35Z] <acheam> > It's all about freedom...
[2021-06-02T01:25:47Z] <midfavila> open source was intended to just be a synonym for free software
[2021-06-02T01:25:52Z] <midfavila> not a seperate ideology
[2021-06-02T01:26:05Z] <noocsharp> windows is open source if you work at microsoft :>
[2021-06-02T01:26:07Z] <acheam> too bad they've diverged
[2021-06-02T01:26:25Z] <acheam> ive actually seen someone non ironically say something like that
[2021-06-02T01:26:28Z] <midfavila> they only diverged because le ebic kernel heckers are fine with bullshit NDAs 
[2021-06-02T01:26:35Z] <midfavila> and etc, of course
[2021-06-02T01:26:39Z] <acheam> they were touting how good it is that within Microsoft, all code is accessible
[2021-06-02T01:26:50Z] <acheam> like, you're so close to the right conclusion
[2021-06-02T01:26:54Z] <midfavila> time to get hired by microsoft and steal the windows source code
[2021-06-02T01:26:58Z] <midfavila> here I go lads
[2021-06-02T01:27:16Z] <midfavila> viva la libre
[2021-06-02T01:28:06Z] <midfavila> oh man, you know what else pisses me off?
[2021-06-02T01:28:09Z] <midfavila> microsoft apologists
[2021-06-02T01:28:19Z] <zr> Hm, what should be the next ChanServ message
[2021-06-02T01:28:30Z] <midfavila> Heil Private Internet Access
[2021-06-02T01:28:54Z] <acheam> nah, I'd rather just move on from that
[2021-06-02T01:28:57Z] <midfavila> alternatively, Come for the memes, stay for the dreams
[2021-06-02T01:29:04Z] <midfavila> i still think that should be our channel slogan.
[2021-06-02T01:29:18Z] <zr> "Please read the topic."
[2021-06-02T01:29:22Z] <midfavila> ...or, well, Come for the meme, stay for the dream
[2021-06-02T01:29:27Z] <midfavila> that's boring, zr
[2021-06-02T01:29:47Z] <midfavila> who do you think we are, debian?
[2021-06-02T01:30:07Z] <zr> fr..freenode?
[2021-06-02T01:30:16Z] <zr> brb
[2021-06-02T01:30:24Z] * midfavila wields torch
[2021-06-02T01:31:59Z] <riteo> here I am back again
[2021-06-02T01:32:19Z] <midfavila> wb uwu
[2021-06-02T01:34:08Z] <riteo> acheam: RE people using nonfree stuff although calling themselves open-source enthusiasts: you should also consider that people may be slowly transitioning from what they have to more free stuff, be it for economical reasons and whatnot
[2021-06-02T01:34:32Z] <midfavila> the problem here isn't one of using more or less libre software
[2021-06-02T01:34:35Z] <midfavila> it's a matter of ideology
[2021-06-02T01:34:53Z] <midfavila> "open source" means you're willing to kowtow to suits if it's convenient
[2021-06-02T01:35:12Z] <riteo> kow... Tow?
[2021-06-02T01:35:52Z] <midfavila> oh. it's like, an asian gesture of immense respect and sometimes submission
[2021-06-02T01:36:10Z] <midfavila> so like, you might kowtow to an emporor or something. especially if you've upset them
[2021-06-02T01:36:34Z] <riteo> oh
[2021-06-02T01:36:47Z] <riteo> I'm sorry, I still don't get what you meant though
[2021-06-02T01:36:58Z] <midfavila> basically,
[2021-06-02T01:37:08Z] <midfavila> you're willing to let corporations fuck you over in the long term if it's convenient in the short term
[2021-06-02T01:37:17Z] <riteo> oh
[2021-06-02T01:37:27Z] <midfavila> see: providing binary blobs instead of technical documents so you can develop free firmware and drivers
[2021-06-02T01:37:44Z] <riteo> so keeping on buying proprietary stuff, for example?
[2021-06-02T01:38:12Z] <riteo> well, that example is a very particular one
[2021-06-02T01:38:15Z] <midfavila> that could be an example
[2021-06-02T01:38:34Z] <riteo> the whole hardware situation is very very messed up nowadays 
[2021-06-02T01:38:55Z] <riteo> it'll take a lot of time to get to a point where we have truly libre hardware at affordable prices
[2021-06-02T01:38:56Z] <midfavila> hardware has been fucked since the 80s 
[2021-06-02T01:41:17Z] <noocsharp> and you can help push it along by buying from companies that try to make their hardware as free as possible
[2021-06-02T01:41:35Z] <midfavila> thing is, most companies don't exactly make that easy
[2021-06-02T01:41:46Z] <midfavila> it would be awesome if I could afford librem hardware,
[2021-06-02T01:41:49Z] <midfavila> but I can't
[2021-06-02T01:41:49Z] <riteo> yeah, it's not like there's exactly a lot of choice either
[2021-06-02T01:41:53Z] <midfavila> ...nor would I buy librem if I could
[2021-06-02T01:41:57Z] <midfavila> their hardware is...
[2021-06-02T01:42:01Z] <midfavila> eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeh.
[2021-06-02T01:42:16Z] <noocsharp> well do you want libre hardware or not?
[2021-06-02T01:42:21Z] <riteo> yeah, price and performance are a big big issue in libre hardware
[2021-06-02T01:42:32Z] <midfavila> my current hardware runs using libre stacks almost exclusively
[2021-06-02T01:42:54Z] <midfavila> the only hardware I own that *requires* anything proprietary are my modern GPUs
[2021-06-02T01:43:15Z] <riteo> I mean, that isn't exactly libre hardware mid
[2021-06-02T01:43:27Z] <riteo> it uses libre software, but is the hardware open?
[2021-06-02T01:43:29Z] <midfavila> if you want to be super technical, librem isn't purely librem hardware either
[2021-06-02T01:43:39Z] <riteo> and that's a big issue
[2021-06-02T01:43:40Z] <midfavila> there's no *truly* libre hardware available
[2021-06-02T01:43:49Z] <midfavila> but the MNT Reform comes close
[2021-06-02T01:43:51Z] <riteo> actually yes
[2021-06-02T01:44:01Z] <midfavila> thing is, it also costs 2k USD
[2021-06-02T01:44:08Z] <riteo> oh so we're talking about the same thing
[2021-06-02T01:44:10Z] <midfavila> and runs an... unimpressive ARM chipset
[2021-06-02T01:44:22Z] <riteo> oh so maybe we aren't talking about the same thing
[2021-06-02T01:44:41Z] <riteo> AFAIK there's a RISC-V SBC that costs like 1k
[2021-06-02T01:44:50Z] <midfavila> yes, there are RISC-V SBCs 
[2021-06-02T01:44:52Z] <midfavila> thing is,
[2021-06-02T01:44:52Z] <riteo> it's like 20 years behind in performance though
[2021-06-02T01:44:56Z] <midfavila> SBCs are shit
[2021-06-02T01:45:00Z] <midfavila> and so is RISC-V
[2021-06-02T01:45:09Z] <riteo> oh, really?
[2021-06-02T01:45:11Z] <midfavila> like, they're both maximally turd-tier
[2021-06-02T01:45:13Z] <midfavila> at least imho
[2021-06-02T01:45:23Z] <midfavila> SBCs are gimmicky at best and only useful for prototyping
[2021-06-02T01:45:33Z] <riteo> I didn't know RISC-V was bad
[2021-06-02T01:45:38Z] <midfavila> okay, so,
[2021-06-02T01:45:44Z] <midfavila> RISC-V imo is bad because of politics
[2021-06-02T01:45:48Z] <midfavila> not because of the tech itself
[2021-06-02T01:45:58Z] <midfavila> ...well, somewhat tech-related, actually.
[2021-06-02T01:46:00Z] <midfavila> tl;dr
[2021-06-02T01:46:01Z] <riteo> wasn't it supposed to be open?
[2021-06-02T01:46:06Z] <midfavila> open!=good
[2021-06-02T01:46:12Z] <midfavila> remember tivo?
[2021-06-02T01:46:15Z] <riteo> no
[2021-06-02T01:46:18Z] <midfavila> oh
[2021-06-02T01:46:23Z] <midfavila> well, that's why the GPLv3 was created
[2021-06-02T01:46:26Z] <midfavila> basically,
[2021-06-02T01:46:39Z] <midfavila> what they did was use Linux to build an open source OS for their TVs
[2021-06-02T01:47:00Z] <midfavila> but they locked their hardware down so tightly and coupled the software so much that it might as well have been proprietary
[2021-06-02T01:47:15Z] <midfavila> there's nothing *legal* stopping you from exercising the four freedoms, but there are *technical* elements restricting you
[2021-06-02T01:47:38Z] <midfavila> i think RISC-V will allow for something similar to happen
[2021-06-02T01:48:10Z] <riteo> oh, are you talking about proprietary extensions?
[2021-06-02T01:48:13Z] <midfavila> my dystopian future prediction is one where everyone runs RISC-V based thin clients that are useless without an internet connection, and connect to a central server run by Microsoft to do all of their computing
[2021-06-02T01:48:26Z] <riteo> well
[2021-06-02T01:48:30Z] <riteo> that could happen with any cpu
[2021-06-02T01:48:37Z] <midfavila> sure, but the thing is,
[2021-06-02T01:48:48Z] <midfavila> with an x86 machine, even on some laptops, I can still tinker with the hardware
[2021-06-02T01:48:58Z] <midfavila> i can upgrade the CPU, or the memory, or the keyboard, or whatever
[2021-06-02T01:49:11Z] <midfavila> and I can tinker with the OS, and sometimes the BIOS, too
[2021-06-02T01:49:21Z] <midfavila> with RISC-V, you just stick it all on an SBC
[2021-06-02T01:49:37Z] <midfavila> so now you can't replace the CPU, or the memory, or the GPU, or the networking hardware, or the audio hardware...
[2021-06-02T01:49:39Z] <riteo> oh, but I'm pretty sure that the whole SBC thing is not mandatory
[2021-06-02T01:49:44Z] <riteo> right?
[2021-06-02T01:49:47Z] <midfavila> it's not, but market forces will push it anyway
[2021-06-02T01:50:00Z] <midfavila> producing an SBC is much, much cheaper than producing a modular system
[2021-06-02T01:50:03Z] <riteo> I mean, it's way more costly to make a whole motherboard with an open socket and whatever
[2021-06-02T01:50:06Z] <riteo> yeah
[2021-06-02T01:50:09Z] <midfavila> plus
[2021-06-02T01:50:20Z] <riteo> but it makes sense IMO for now, since a "simple" SBC costs like 1k for now
[2021-06-02T01:50:35Z] <riteo> just give it time
[2021-06-02T01:50:35Z] <midfavila> do you really think the average joe blow product consooooooooooooooooooooooooooooomer cares about whether he's running an ISA-style system or an SBC?
[2021-06-02T01:50:46Z] <noocsharp> i don't see why a large corporation would switch to risc-v when arm is a thing
[2021-06-02T01:50:54Z] <midfavila> license fees
[2021-06-02T01:51:01Z] <riteo> do you really thing that the average joe blow product coonsoooomer cares about whether he's running a RISC-V system?
[2021-06-02T01:51:12Z] <midfavila> nope, but he cares about the price of the system
[2021-06-02T01:51:20Z] <acheam> you can get $40 riscv boarda
[2021-06-02T01:51:30Z] <midfavila> and things like "oh my god it's so thin and light and has such a long battery life!!!"
[2021-06-02T01:51:34Z] <riteo> acheam: where?
[2021-06-02T01:52:15Z] <midfavila> considering you can just fab risc-v chips for free, this reduces the cost for the user, at least in theory. meaning they're more likely to choose a cheapo risc-v system
[2021-06-02T01:52:16Z] <riteo> mid: well, nothing would theorethically stop microsoft to make a thin client built on top of an fpga or something that doesn't even have instructions
[2021-06-02T01:52:30Z] <midfavila> i mean, yes, actually, physics would stop them.
[2021-06-02T01:52:43Z] <riteo> wdym
[2021-06-02T01:52:43Z] <midfavila> considering you kind of need a chip somewhere executing instructions to do anything useful.
[2021-06-02T01:52:45Z] <noocsharp> i kind of see where you're coming from mid, but it also allows pine64 types to produce free risc-v machines
[2021-06-02T01:52:56Z] <midfavila> noocsharp pine64 is also eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeh hardware
[2021-06-02T01:53:13Z] <midfavila> i class pine64 with systems like the rasp pi
[2021-06-02T01:53:18Z] <riteo> well mid I'm not sure about that if all you need to do is show an image from a server
[2021-06-02T01:53:20Z] <noocsharp> i mean what do you want
[2021-06-02T01:53:40Z] <riteo> just hardcode the logic, what are people going to do, hack the ethernet microcontroller?
[2021-06-02T01:53:42Z] <midfavila> an actually usable PC based on a standard system architecture with a fully libre ISA and software stack, from BIOS to OS
[2021-06-02T01:53:42Z] <noocsharp> i don't see a world where companies with the ability to produce bleeding edge hardware will respect your 4 freedoms
[2021-06-02T01:53:56Z] <midfavila> noocsharp raptor engineering does it actually
[2021-06-02T01:54:04Z] <midfavila> POWER systems are based as fuck
[2021-06-02T01:54:15Z] <midfavila> raw coom material
[2021-06-02T01:54:28Z] <riteo> what do they do?
[2021-06-02T01:54:28Z] <midfavila> however, they're also hilariously expensive
[2021-06-02T01:55:02Z] <riteo> also thinking about it I'm not completely sure the average joe would completely ignore the importance of libre hardware
[2021-06-02T01:55:05Z] <midfavila> riteo POWER is a RISC ISA originally from IBM, Apple, and some other corp (I think Motorola..?) optimized for high performance
[2021-06-02T01:55:06Z] <noocsharp> im talking more about large companies with volume
[2021-06-02T01:55:12Z] <midfavila> noocsharp IBM
[2021-06-02T01:55:14Z] <midfavila> :v
[2021-06-02T01:55:21Z] <noocsharp> in the year 2021
[2021-06-02T01:55:26Z] <riteo> midfavila: I know that, I was referring to raptor engineering
[2021-06-02T01:55:27Z] <midfavila> in the year 1997
[2021-06-02T01:55:35Z] <midfavila> but anyway,
[2021-06-02T01:55:53Z] <midfavila> POWER is just a high-performance RISC-based ISA with a fully libre design. 
[2021-06-02T01:55:54Z] <midfavila> that's it.
[2021-06-02T01:55:56Z] <midfavila> no real frills.
[2021-06-02T01:56:08Z] <riteo> I mean, people are getting more and more privacy concious, it's a slow process, yes, but things are very slowly moving, so I can almost see a distant future where people are so privacy concious they prefer open hardware
[2021-06-02T01:56:11Z] <midfavila> most systems that I know of that use it are fully libre, though
[2021-06-02T01:56:12Z] <noocsharp> like amd, intel, and nvidia don't care about your freedoms
[2021-06-02T01:56:26Z] <midfavila> noocsharp yes, I know, and if I had the option I wouldn't be using any of their hardware
[2021-06-02T01:56:44Z] <midfavila> sadly, I lack the knowledge and skill to manufacture hardware myself 
[2021-06-02T01:56:59Z] <midfavila> otherwise, I'd be typing to you from a Z80 ISA system using an S-100 bus
[2021-06-02T01:57:10Z] <midfavila> probably running collapseOS
[2021-06-02T01:57:11Z] <riteo> midfavila: nobody has the tools practically, the closest thing you could do is programming an fpga
[2021-06-02T01:57:17Z] <midfavila> riteo incorrect
[2021-06-02T01:57:29Z] <riteo> afaik only one dude made a small chip
[2021-06-02T01:57:35Z] <midfavila> you can literally send a verilog design off to a company and get it fabbed
[2021-06-02T01:57:42Z] <riteo> oh
[2021-06-02T01:57:45Z] <midfavila> it's the same process as 3D printing
[2021-06-02T01:57:47Z] <riteo> I didn't know that
[2021-06-02T01:57:53Z] <midfavila> yeah man
[2021-06-02T01:57:58Z] <riteo> that's very cool
[2021-06-02T01:58:01Z] <midfavila> it is.
[2021-06-02T01:58:12Z] <midfavila> but yeah, the ideal would be running a homebrew unix system
[2021-06-02T01:58:15Z] <acheam> riteo: https://riscv.org/exchange/boards/
[2021-06-02T01:58:35Z] <midfavila> i saw an S-100 style homebrew machine called the KISS computer
[2021-06-02T01:58:37Z] <midfavila> and I thought
[2021-06-02T01:58:43Z] <midfavila> "wouldn't it be funny if I installed KISS on the KISS?"
[2021-06-02T01:58:46Z] <riteo> lmao
[2021-06-02T01:58:50Z] <riteo> KISS^2
[2021-06-02T01:58:54Z] <midfavila> and then I realized, immediately afterward,
[2021-06-02T01:58:57Z] <midfavila> "holy fucking based"
[2021-06-02T01:58:58Z] <riteo> acheam: interesting, thanks
[2021-06-02T01:59:21Z] <midfavila> i guess I could set up a machine using an RC2014 bus...
[2021-06-02T01:59:25Z] <midfavila> but those are more for education.
[2021-06-02T02:00:31Z] <riteo> midfavila: do you have any link about that project? It sounds interesting
[2021-06-02T02:00:40Z] <midfavila> rc2014, collapseOS, the KISS computer..?
[2021-06-02T02:00:42Z] <riteo> anyway, wouldn't an s-100 be too slow for a linux distribution?
[2021-06-02T02:00:48Z] <midfavila> lmao no
[2021-06-02T02:00:48Z] <riteo> midfavila: the kiss computer
[2021-06-02T02:00:57Z] <midfavila> someone ran a port of UNIX on an S-100 machine
[2021-06-02T02:01:14Z] <midfavila> you can wire up a 433mhz CPU or even faster on an S-100 backplane
[2021-06-02T02:01:19Z] <midfavila> especially if you use a terminated model
[2021-06-02T02:01:32Z] <riteo> oh
[2021-06-02T02:02:01Z] <riteo> btw this whole bus backplane looks cool af
[2021-06-02T02:02:08Z] <midfavila> https://vid.puffyan.us/watch?v=MYpMOBaohbw
[2021-06-02T02:02:12Z] <midfavila> S-100 hardware is incredible
[2021-06-02T02:02:17Z] <midfavila> it was used well into the late 90s
[2021-06-02T02:02:24Z] <midfavila> and still sees some limited use in industrial settings
[2021-06-02T02:02:30Z] <midfavila> but it's largely been superceded by PICMG
[2021-06-02T02:03:10Z] <riteo> this is completely obscure stuff for me
[2021-06-02T02:03:16Z] <riteo> this is a really strong midfavila moment
[2021-06-02T02:03:41Z] <midfavila> dude we haven't even started talking about how we're going to build libre computers to survive the apocalypse yet
[2021-06-02T02:03:57Z] <riteo> I love talking about obscure hardware at 4 am with you
[2021-06-02T02:04:04Z] <riteo> it's like the second time it happened
[2021-06-02T02:04:17Z] <midfavila> uwu~
[2021-06-02T02:04:31Z] <riteo> well, looking for PICMG brings me to a consortium, which actual standard are you talking about?
[2021-06-02T02:04:38Z] <midfavila> PICMG.
[2021-06-02T02:04:47Z] <midfavila> it's a system architecture
[2021-06-02T02:04:53Z] <midfavila> uses PCIe as the primary bus
[2021-06-02T02:05:00Z] <midfavila> but instead of a motherboard it uses an S-100 style backplane
[2021-06-02T02:05:02Z] <riteo> it brings me to a list with a lot of versions of PICMG
[2021-06-02T02:05:27Z] <midfavila> LGR did a video on older PICMG tech if you want to watch that
[2021-06-02T02:05:43Z] <riteo> oh that'd be very interesting
[2021-06-02T02:05:47Z] <riteo> I'll look for it
[2021-06-02T02:05:52Z] <midfavila> should be easy to find
[2021-06-02T02:06:42Z] <riteo> why did we switch from a generic bus line to more specialized hardware sockets?
[2021-06-02T02:06:46Z] <riteo> was it for speed?
[2021-06-02T02:06:51Z] <midfavila> speed and cost
[2021-06-02T02:06:56Z] <midfavila> and also because IBM is greedy
[2021-06-02T02:07:01Z] <midfavila> and so is Intel
[2021-06-02T02:07:08Z] <riteo> it's always IBM's fault, isn't it?
[2021-06-02T02:07:17Z] <midfavila> i mean, yes
[2021-06-02T02:07:25Z] <midfavila> when things go to shit, IBM is there somewhere
[2021-06-02T02:08:54Z] <riteo> does that video talk about using an SBC on a backplane?
[2021-06-02T02:09:08Z] <midfavila> no, it's just its own thing
[2021-06-02T02:09:15Z] <midfavila> ...unless you mean the LGR one
[2021-06-02T02:09:19Z] <midfavila> in which case I believe he talks about it a bit
[2021-06-02T02:09:20Z] <riteo> yes
[2021-06-02T02:09:25Z] <riteo> I'm talking about the LGR one
[2021-06-02T02:12:43Z] <riteo> all I can find is him building a pc with an ISA backplane
[2021-06-02T02:12:54Z] <midfavila> p sure that's the one
[2021-06-02T02:13:00Z] <midfavila> PICMG used to be based on PCI
[2021-06-02T02:13:10Z] <midfavila> and before that, something similar was on ISA
[2021-06-02T02:13:13Z] <riteo> oh, cool
[2021-06-02T02:13:28Z] <riteo> why did he use an SBC though?
[2021-06-02T02:13:30Z] <riteo> was it standard?
[2021-06-02T02:13:49Z] <midfavila> the SBC is the master board
[2021-06-02T02:13:58Z] <midfavila> it contains the CPU socket and things like basic memory sockets
[2021-06-02T02:14:03Z] <midfavila> so you, bare minimum, need that
[2021-06-02T02:14:28Z] <riteo> mh
[2021-06-02T02:14:41Z] <riteo> If there's a master card I really don't see a reason for it to be slower than a regular computer
[2021-06-02T02:14:51Z] <riteo> like, even if reimagined with modern tech
[2021-06-02T02:15:00Z] <midfavila> if I recall, S-100 ran into issues with electrical interference
[2021-06-02T02:15:17Z] <riteo> oh
[2021-06-02T02:15:36Z] <riteo> was it because of the long traces?
[2021-06-02T02:15:52Z] <midfavila> not sure. I don't know much about electronics, all things considered
[2021-06-02T02:15:58Z] <midfavila> i'm kind of stupid, if you haven't noticed, kek
[2021-06-02T02:16:05Z] <riteo> not really
[2021-06-02T02:16:21Z] <riteo> you just know a lot of really unconventional things
[2021-06-02T02:16:26Z] <riteo> that's really cool
[2021-06-02T02:16:33Z] * midfavila shrugs
[2021-06-02T02:16:37Z] <noocsharp> you would be less stupid if you spent less time on irc and more time on c
[2021-06-02T02:16:47Z] <acheam> ouch
[2021-06-02T02:16:48Z] <midfavila> yes, I know, i've been doing that lately
[2021-06-02T02:17:03Z] <midfavila> i spent four hours working on my K&R solutions today
[2021-06-02T02:17:10Z] <riteo> midfavila remember to not burn out
[2021-06-02T02:17:25Z] <noocsharp> is c the first real language that you're learning?
[2021-06-02T02:17:31Z] <midfavila> i mean, define "real"
[2021-06-02T02:17:36Z] <noocsharp> not shell script
[2021-06-02T02:17:37Z] <midfavila> i learned the basics of lua when I was five
[2021-06-02T02:17:49Z] <midfavila> and I learned the basics of x86 assembly when I was fourteen
[2021-06-02T02:18:17Z] <midfavila> ...arguably earlier, but I don't know if "abusing cheat engine" counts as studying x86 assembler
[2021-06-02T02:18:30Z] <midfavila> that's just manipulating memory, for the most part.
[2021-06-02T02:18:43Z] <noocsharp> imo k&r exercises aren't the best use of your time in that case
[2021-06-02T02:18:57Z] <noocsharp> but you do you
[2021-06-02T02:19:07Z] <midfavila> well, thing is,
[2021-06-02T02:19:13Z] <midfavila> I have no experience *programming*
[2021-06-02T02:19:15Z] <riteo> I mean, you got some basics
[2021-06-02T02:19:28Z] <midfavila> in the sense of "a structured and algorithmic approach to solving problems"
[2021-06-02T02:19:44Z] <riteo> yeah imo k&r isn't a bad idea in your case
[2021-06-02T02:20:02Z] <midfavila> i've recently acquired a copy of How to Design Programs, so I'll be flipping between that and K&R
[2021-06-02T02:20:22Z] <noocsharp> you learn to design programs by designing programs
[2021-06-02T02:20:29Z] <midfavila> no shit
[2021-06-02T02:20:30Z] <noocsharp> but i guess that's what k&r exercises are
[2021-06-02T02:20:39Z] <midfavila> HtDP provides heuristics and general methods to approach problems
[2021-06-02T02:21:05Z] <midfavila> it doesn't literally teach you how to write programs
[2021-06-02T02:21:14Z] <midfavila> actually, that's probably the one thing it doesn't touch on
[2021-06-02T02:21:26Z] <midfavila> it's everything adjacent to that.
[2021-06-02T02:21:30Z] <noocsharp> yes, and i think such heuristics and methods become intuitive as you spend a lot of time designing programs
[2021-06-02T02:21:37Z] <midfavila> for sure, but here's the thing
[2021-06-02T02:22:02Z] <midfavila> i could sit here and bang my head against the wall for four hours a day feeling like a complete dumbass for not being able to intuit something that's probably quite obscure,
[2021-06-02T02:22:20Z] <midfavila> or I could just read a book and see the basic concept laid out in fifteen or so minutes, and then apply and tinker with that.
[2021-06-02T02:22:35Z] <midfavila> the latter is significantly less depressing. 
[2021-06-02T02:23:00Z] <riteo> it kinda is
[2021-06-02T02:23:05Z] <noocsharp> i think i would find the second approach less rewarding as well
[2021-06-02T02:23:15Z] <riteo> but anyways at the start you'll have to bang your head for quite a while anyways
[2021-06-02T02:23:26Z] <midfavila> i would rather a steady approach instead of a manic-depressive approach
[2021-06-02T02:23:45Z] <riteo> just make sure to not be doing what you learn mechanically and you should be fine
[2021-06-02T02:23:55Z] <midfavila> besides, the rewarding part is understanding the approach at a fundamental level
[2021-06-02T02:24:04Z] <riteo> if you want to go for a more methodic method go for that
[2021-06-02T02:24:09Z] <midfavila> you can get that whether you uncover the idea yourself or have it shown to you. /shrug
[2021-06-02T02:24:16Z] <riteo> just know that you'll eventually have to experiment organically anyways
[2021-06-02T02:24:33Z] <midfavila> in terms of writing programs, yes
[2021-06-02T02:24:35Z] <midfavila> of course
[2021-06-02T02:24:44Z] <midfavila> but that's not what I'm talking about.
[2021-06-02T02:25:54Z] <midfavila> ...eugh, this guy is running vim on his little homebrew machine
[2021-06-02T02:25:58Z] <midfavila> this is making me cringe
[2021-06-02T02:26:03Z] <riteo> nooooo
[2021-06-02T02:26:15Z] <midfavila> takes like five or six seconds just to open a text file
[2021-06-02T02:26:25Z] <acheam> seriously why did nobody tell me about cgi earlier
[2021-06-02T02:26:32Z] <acheam> i would like to prosecute you
[2021-06-02T02:26:34Z] <midfavila> because it's Deprecated:tm:
[2021-06-02T02:26:49Z] <acheam> bububut now you can go to poki.armaanb.net and see my glorious screenfetch
[2021-06-02T02:26:59Z] <acheam> thats worth "deprecation"
[2021-06-02T02:27:15Z] <midfavila> anyone who uses words like deprecation unironically, I just ignore, at this point.
[2021-06-02T02:27:38Z] <midfavila> same with "enterprise", "scaleable", "open source"...
[2021-06-02T02:27:48Z] <midfavila> s/scaleable/scalable/
[2021-06-02T02:28:51Z] <riteo> god don't get me started with scalable
[2021-06-02T02:29:05Z] <riteo> a friend of mine is doing a java course and all he hears is "scalable"
[2021-06-02T02:29:34Z] <riteo> and for "scalable" everybody means extremely complex software for no reason
[2021-06-02T02:29:38Z] <midfavila> but we need scalable containerized infrastructure in the cloud of things so that we can synergistically serve our clients innovative technology
[2021-06-02T02:29:49Z] <midfavila> don't you care about innovation, riteo?
[2021-06-02T02:29:57Z] <riteo> god
[2021-06-02T02:30:09Z] <midfavila> this is your daily reminder to hail the GDP
[2021-06-02T02:30:18Z] <midfavila> not doing so is communism and will not be tolerated
[2021-06-02T02:30:25Z] <riteo> like a friend of his made a "scalable" xml parser using java's INTEGRATED LIBRARIES THAT DO THAT and it took like 3 classes and was so complex, it used function referencing and whatever
[2021-06-02T02:30:39Z] <riteo> then my friend came over and made like a 100 line class that did the exact same thing
[2021-06-02T02:30:47Z] <midfavila> the very concept of java makes me want to vomit
[2021-06-02T02:30:52Z] <riteo> I know
[2021-06-02T02:31:04Z] <midfavila> unironically use lisp
[2021-06-02T02:31:11Z] <midfavila> you can even use your stupid object-oriented paradigms
[2021-06-02T02:31:13Z] <riteo> eh, sadly it doesn't work like that
[2021-06-02T02:31:20Z] <midfavila> you can run lisp on the jvm
[2021-06-02T02:31:24Z] <riteo> I have to use it to make some plugins for our minecraft server
[2021-06-02T02:31:54Z] <midfavila> write them in clojure
[2021-06-02T02:31:57Z] <midfavila> do it
[2021-06-02T02:31:59Z] <midfavila> rn
[2021-06-02T02:32:01Z] <riteo> how
[2021-06-02T02:32:08Z] <midfavila> by writing it in clojure
[2021-06-02T02:32:12Z] <riteo> i would need reflection
[2021-06-02T02:32:29Z] <riteo> in bukkit it's basically a must since it's a shit API 
[2021-06-02T02:32:35Z] <midfavila> solution:
[2021-06-02T02:32:37Z] <midfavila> don't use shit APIs
[2021-06-02T02:32:43Z] <riteo> if only I could
[2021-06-02T02:32:48Z] <midfavila> you can
[2021-06-02T02:32:52Z] <riteo> we depend on a plugin which hasn't been ported to fabric yet
[2021-06-02T02:32:53Z] <midfavila> channel the spirit of theo deraadt
[2021-06-02T02:33:01Z] <riteo> and it's like HUGE
[2021-06-02T02:33:06Z] <noocsharp> switch to minetest
[2021-06-02T02:33:12Z] <riteo> it's seriously one of the most shitty plugins I've ever seen
[2021-06-02T02:33:14Z] <riteo> >lua api
[2021-06-02T02:33:24Z] <riteo> I thought we were talking about good APIs mid
[2021-06-02T02:33:33Z] <midfavila> lua is netbsd tho?
[2021-06-02T02:33:40Z] <riteo> so what
[2021-06-02T02:33:48Z] <midfavila> deraadt is obsd
[2021-06-02T02:34:01Z] <midfavila> essemaitch
[2021-06-02T02:34:07Z] <riteo> you can't make a blazingly fast minecraft clone and use a shitty lua API
[2021-06-02T02:34:17Z] <midfavila> so like
[2021-06-02T02:34:17Z] <midfavila> idk
[2021-06-02T02:34:21Z] <midfavila> write your own minecraft clone
[2021-06-02T02:34:24Z] <midfavila> or, alternatively,
[2021-06-02T02:34:25Z] <riteo> also, it still doesn't make that many optimizations from minecraft
[2021-06-02T02:34:28Z] <midfavila> play a better game.
[2021-06-02T02:34:34Z] <midfavila> minecraft is actual garbage.
[2021-06-02T02:34:37Z] <riteo> minecraft is unironically good
[2021-06-02T02:34:44Z] <midfavila> disagree.
[2021-06-02T02:34:48Z] <riteo> elaborate.
[2021-06-02T02:34:51Z] <midfavila> if the main selling point of your game is modding, it's a bad game.
[2021-06-02T02:34:51Z] <noocsharp> https://wolkenwelten.net/
[2021-06-02T02:34:59Z] <riteo> >selling point
[2021-06-02T02:35:08Z] <midfavila> like, by definition, you require other people to make your game good.
[2021-06-02T02:35:10Z] <riteo> what are you talking about, look at their website and find me the word "modding"
[2021-06-02T02:35:21Z] <riteo> it's more than playable unmodded
[2021-06-02T02:35:39Z] <riteo> expecially with their last versions, it literally looks like one of those old modded packs
[2021-06-02T02:35:40Z] <midfavila> right, because there are tons of people who play minecraft for the story and intricate mechanics who aren't... I dunno, seven.
[2021-06-02T02:35:55Z] <riteo> how much time ago did you play minecraft mid
[2021-06-02T02:36:04Z] <midfavila> when I was thirteen or something.
[2021-06-02T02:36:11Z] <riteo> you know that we're not stuck in 1.2.5 anymore, right?
[2021-06-02T02:36:26Z] <midfavila> if I want to play a sandbox game, I'm more of a starbound guy.
[2021-06-02T02:36:27Z] <midfavila> or terraria.
[2021-06-02T02:36:31Z] <midfavila> but mostly starbound.
[2021-06-02T02:36:38Z] <midfavila> ...for the record, starbound was better in early access.
[2021-06-02T02:37:03Z] <midfavila> oh, temperature and weather mechanics, how I miss thee...
[2021-06-02T02:37:08Z] <riteo> well, they're different types of sandbox, obviously follow your tastest
[2021-06-02T02:37:14Z] <riteo> s/tastest/tastes/
[2021-06-02T02:37:27Z] <riteo> but nowadays minecraft is very content rich
[2021-06-02T02:37:54Z] <midfavila> eh... I feel like what you do with your content is more important than the content itself
[2021-06-02T02:38:06Z] <midfavila> like, look at most of bethesda's games. those have tons of content
[2021-06-02T02:38:11Z] <riteo> everything has a purpose in minecraft
[2021-06-02T02:38:23Z] <midfavila> but it's presented in a hilariously buggy manner, it's equally as generic, and it's just...
[2021-06-02T02:38:24Z] <midfavila> boring
[2021-06-02T02:38:29Z] <riteo> you should give it a spin, just to have a feel for what I mean
[2021-06-02T02:38:38Z] <riteo> you're probably stuck in beta times
[2021-06-02T02:38:41Z] <midfavila> i'm not giving microshill any of my shekels
[2021-06-02T02:38:45Z] <midfavila> nor am I installing java
[2021-06-02T02:38:46Z] <midfavila> fuck that
[2021-06-02T02:38:52Z] <riteo> i never talked about giving money to microshill mid
[2021-06-02T02:39:04Z] <midfavila> do you not require a license to play?
[2021-06-02T02:39:11Z] <riteo> I mean... yes
[2021-06-02T02:39:14Z] <riteo> but...
[2021-06-02T02:39:17Z] <midfavila> oooooh
[2021-06-02T02:39:18Z] <midfavila> i see
[2021-06-02T02:39:22Z] <midfavila> you're talking about "trying" minecraft
[2021-06-02T02:39:29Z] <riteo> also, there's basically no copy protection
[2021-06-02T02:39:30Z] <riteo> yes
[2021-06-02T02:39:32Z] <midfavila> the problem is that this still requires java
[2021-06-02T02:39:33Z] <riteo> "trying"
[2021-06-02T02:39:35Z] <midfavila> which is cringe
[2021-06-02T02:39:40Z] <riteo> for the java part, understandable
[2021-06-02T02:39:51Z] <riteo> it's literally the only reason 99% of people have java installed
[2021-06-02T02:39:54Z] <midfavila> i have never *once* gotten the JVM to run on my machine under linux
[2021-06-02T02:40:22Z] <riteo> anyways, I do agree that modding minecraft is great anyways
[2021-06-02T02:40:22Z] <midfavila> if I'm gonna use a VM to run code, it's gonna be scheme48
[2021-06-02T02:40:37Z] <midfavila> r5rs bytecode baybeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
[2021-06-02T02:41:34Z] <riteo> minecraft really baffles me
[2021-06-02T02:41:42Z] <midfavila> howso
[2021-06-02T02:41:45Z] <riteo> like, you wrote a 3d game in what?
[2021-06-02T02:42:04Z] <riteo> you have no idea how complex performance mods are getting
[2021-06-02T02:42:09Z] <midfavila> wait until you hear about what people write in LISP
[2021-06-02T02:42:51Z] <riteo> yeah but LISP doesn't run on a VM, does it?
[2021-06-02T02:43:06Z] <midfavila> i mean, it can. like I said, scheme48 runs on a vm
[2021-06-02T02:43:10Z] <midfavila> clojure runs on a vm
[2021-06-02T02:43:13Z] <riteo> also mojang writes the most cursed code
[2021-06-02T02:43:33Z] <riteo> the performance of minecraft is really bad fwiw
[2021-06-02T02:43:43Z] <midfavila> don't say redundant things
[2021-06-02T02:43:46Z] <midfavila> of course it's bad, it's java
[2021-06-02T02:43:51Z] <riteo> yeah not only that
[2021-06-02T02:43:51Z] <midfavila> literal shit-tier language
[2021-06-02T02:44:00Z] <riteo> I'm not only talking about java's fault
[2021-06-02T02:44:08Z] <riteo> literally mojang writes extremely cursed things
[2021-06-02T02:44:27Z] <riteo> it's extremely common knowledge in performance mod entusiasts
[2021-06-02T02:44:43Z] <midfavila> this is just more reasons why minecraft is bad, imo.
[2021-06-02T02:44:51Z] <midfavila> "performance mods" shouldn't need to exist.
[2021-06-02T02:45:04Z] <riteo> oh yeah I completely agree on that part
[2021-06-02T02:45:11Z] <riteo> also there shouldn't exist anti-cheat plugins
[2021-06-02T02:45:11Z] <midfavila> basically,
[2021-06-02T02:45:19Z] <riteo> minecraft network protocol is absolute shit
[2021-06-02T02:45:23Z] <noocsharp> i direct you again to https://wolkenwelten.net
[2021-06-02T02:45:33Z] <midfavila> if there's community consensus on *mandatory* mods for basic gameplay,
[2021-06-02T02:45:35Z] <riteo> oh
[2021-06-02T02:45:36Z] <midfavila> i probably consider it a bad game
[2021-06-02T02:45:59Z] <riteo> they're not completely mandatory though
[2021-06-02T02:46:05Z] <riteo> also, the mods I'm talking about are very niche
[2021-06-02T02:46:15Z] * midfavila shrugs
[2021-06-02T02:46:17Z] <riteo> everybody is usually stuck on optifine and that's absoulute shit
[2021-06-02T02:46:29Z] <midfavila> i'm a boomer who just doesn't get what the kids see in minecraft ig
[2021-06-02T02:46:32Z] <riteo> btw that wolkenwelten looks very weird
[2021-06-02T02:46:46Z] <midfavila> >fits on a 1.44 floppy
[2021-06-02T02:46:48Z] <midfavila> absolutely BASED
[2021-06-02T02:46:50Z] <riteo> omg
[2021-06-02T02:46:51Z] <midfavila> holy shit
[2021-06-02T02:46:54Z] <riteo> it's also written in lisp
[2021-06-02T02:47:02Z] <noocsharp> its written in c
[2021-06-02T02:47:02Z] <midfavila> mostly C99*
[2021-06-02T02:47:12Z] <midfavila> ...oh, it has grappling
[2021-06-02T02:47:16Z] <riteo> what are you talking about
[2021-06-02T02:47:19Z] <riteo> it says lisp powered
[2021-06-02T02:47:28Z] <midfavila> LISP powered doesn't mean "written in LISP"
[2021-06-02T02:47:31Z] <riteo> oh
[2021-06-02T02:47:32Z] <midfavila> it just means it uses LISP
[2021-06-02T02:47:34Z] <riteo> I see
[2021-06-02T02:47:42Z] <midfavila> under "Cool things..." it says that it's mostly C99
[2021-06-02T02:47:49Z] <midfavila> but yeah, I'm a massive sucker for good grappling mechanics
[2021-06-02T02:47:51Z] <riteo> also that rainbow colored "Greetings Cybersurfer" looks dope af
[2021-06-02T02:48:00Z] <midfavila> and just quality physics engines in general
[2021-06-02T02:48:35Z] <midfavila> quality physics, solid grappling and extensive customization are my three big things for whether I'll love a game
[2021-06-02T02:49:38Z] <riteo> the sounds effect are very weird though
[2021-06-02T02:49:42Z] <riteo> kinda scary
[2021-06-02T02:50:00Z] <midfavila> >they have pears
[2021-06-02T02:50:04Z] <midfavila> this is amazing
[2021-06-02T02:50:08Z] <riteo> btw that (and minetest I guess) really show how minecraft is really unnecessarily slow and bloated
[2021-06-02T02:50:15Z] <riteo> they have WHAT
[2021-06-02T02:50:21Z] <midfavila> pears
[2021-06-02T02:50:24Z] <midfavila> that you eat.
[2021-06-02T02:50:28Z] <riteo> OMG
[2021-06-02T02:50:40Z] <riteo> I HAVE TO FIND THEM
[2021-06-02T02:50:50Z] <noocsharp> minetest in my experience is less performant than minecraft, even with less features
[2021-06-02T02:51:25Z] <midfavila> ngl,
[2021-06-02T02:51:36Z] <midfavila> in a way I'm kind of jealous of people who can enjoy things like minecraft
[2021-06-02T02:52:18Z] <riteo> I mean
[2021-06-02T02:52:22Z] <riteo> it's more a taste thing
[2021-06-02T02:52:36Z] <riteo> I grew up playing minecraft, it probably depends on that too
[2021-06-02T02:52:40Z] <midfavila> oh, for sure
[2021-06-02T02:53:07Z] <midfavila> but the important thing is that it's a commonly-enjoyed thing, meaning it makes finding new social connections easier
[2021-06-02T02:53:14Z] <midfavila> and provides an outlet for creativity and community.
[2021-06-02T02:53:25Z] <riteo> oh that's a very important part of minecraft for sure
[2021-06-02T02:53:31Z] <riteo> it's like, the most bought game *ever*
[2021-06-02T02:53:42Z] <midfavila> tetris is giving it a run for its money still
[2021-06-02T02:53:52Z] <riteo> I too love good storytelling games, but minecraft is pretty satisfying to play once in a while, even though I go in phases like everybody else
[2021-06-02T02:54:18Z] <riteo> I too get bored sometimes of it, but I eventually come back
[2021-06-02T02:54:39Z] * midfavila shrugs
[2021-06-02T02:54:53Z] <riteo> btw this grappling mechanic is very good
[2021-06-02T02:54:56Z] <riteo> I really like it
[2021-06-02T02:55:02Z] <midfavila> I at least have Smash. sometimes I'll play that with friends
[2021-06-02T02:55:43Z] <riteo> I mean, probably everybody here is used to the feeling of doing something few people do
[2021-06-02T02:56:22Z] <midfavila> >hipster channel on a hipster network using a hipster protocol for hipsters using a hipster distro
[2021-06-02T02:56:28Z] <riteo> exactly
[2021-06-02T02:56:29Z] <midfavila> i feel like you might be onto something
[2021-06-02T02:56:44Z] <riteo> we could play hipster games all toghether sometimes, why not?
[2021-06-02T02:56:57Z] <midfavila> because we'd bitch at each other about what game to play
[2021-06-02T02:57:01Z] <midfavila> and then we'd fight over how to package it
[2021-06-02T02:57:04Z] <riteo> lmao
[2021-06-02T02:57:13Z] <midfavila> and then we'd have to troubleshoot ten billion build issues that nobody can reproduce
[2021-06-02T02:57:34Z] <riteo> I mean, there's satrsdthsrt or how they're called (we love you) that packages a lot of games on their repo
[2021-06-02T02:57:47Z] <midfavila> kiss-games, right?
[2021-06-02T02:57:50Z] <riteo> yes
[2021-06-02T02:57:56Z] <midfavila> i use that for C:DDA
[2021-06-02T02:58:07Z] <midfavila> cataclysm is amazing
[2021-06-02T02:58:15Z] <midfavila> because it lets me play as a socially-awkward furry sysadmin
[2021-06-02T02:58:34Z] <riteo> epic
[2021-06-02T02:58:39Z] <midfavila> extremely epic
[2021-06-02T02:58:53Z] <midfavila> there are, sadly, no options to be a goat. 
[2021-06-02T02:58:58Z] <midfavila> perhaps one day I will write these options
[2021-06-02T02:59:04Z] <midfavila> but I don't feel like fucking with XML enough to do that
[2021-06-02T02:59:06Z] <riteo> the power of open source
[2021-06-02T02:59:25Z] <midfavila> i'm really excited for the next major build though
[2021-06-02T02:59:40Z] <midfavila> they're adding building infrastructure to the game, based on the current vehicle building code
[2021-06-02T02:59:57Z] <midfavila> so you'll be able to set up solar panels and batteries and stuff, and build up an electrical grid in your base
[2021-06-02T03:00:28Z] <riteo> oh my god I just opened the website of that game and found this gem
[2021-06-02T03:00:36Z] <riteo> “I played catadda 0.B on Lego EV3 brick through ssh about a year ago. Every simple move took a noticeable fraction of a second (like 0.3-0.5 second), crafting and such was very slow as well. The specs were - 300 MhZ CPU, 64 Mb Ram (+ another 64 Mb swap on microsd flash) running ev3dev (stripped ubuntu basically), ssh over USB CDC connection.” -burgerpro
[2021-06-02T03:00:40Z] <midfavila> yup.
[2021-06-02T03:00:57Z] <midfavila> C: DDA is in the same category as Dwarf Fortress
[2021-06-02T03:01:07Z] <midfavila> and by that I mean that it single-handedly drives the development of new CPUs
[2021-06-02T03:01:28Z] <midfavila> it has this concept called a "reality bubble"
[2021-06-02T03:01:45Z] <midfavila> which extends to your current overmap tile plus a 3x3 grid around it
[2021-06-02T03:01:50Z] <midfavila> XXX
[2021-06-02T03:01:50Z] <midfavila> XXX
[2021-06-02T03:01:50Z] <midfavila> XXX
[2021-06-02T03:01:52Z] <midfavila> like that
[2021-06-02T03:02:05Z] <riteo> wait what do you mean for the cpu part
[2021-06-02T03:02:10Z] <midfavila> and everything in that is simulated, second by second, to the fullest extent of the game's physics engine
[2021-06-02T03:02:27Z] <midfavila> riteo I mean that it's very CPU intensive
[2021-06-02T03:02:30Z] <midfavila> like, hilariously so
[2021-06-02T03:03:12Z] <riteo> oh
[2021-06-02T03:03:59Z] <riteo> it sounds really interesting though
[2021-06-02T03:04:04Z] <midfavila> it's really fun
[2021-06-02T03:04:20Z] <midfavila> you can think of it like a Murphy's Law simulator
[2021-06-02T03:04:34Z] <riteo> oh
[2021-06-02T03:04:38Z] <riteo> I think I'll download it
[2021-06-02T03:04:48Z] <midfavila> everything that can go wrong in the C: DDA universe does, and you're thrown into it with the bare minimum and told "fly, bitch"
[2021-06-02T03:04:59Z] <midfavila> so it's really punishing at first
[2021-06-02T03:05:07Z] <midfavila> and I highly recommend setting up a tileset and soundpack
[2021-06-02T03:05:13Z] <riteo> wooo it's even translated
[2021-06-02T03:05:15Z] <midfavila> yeah dude
[2021-06-02T03:07:06Z] <riteo> it looks really complicated
[2021-06-02T03:07:08Z] <riteo> now I'm intrigued
[2021-06-02T03:07:12Z] <midfavila> like I said
[2021-06-02T03:07:17Z] <midfavila> it's in the same category as DF
[2021-06-02T03:07:19Z] <midfavila> or like
[2021-06-02T03:07:22Z] <midfavila> SS13
[2021-06-02T03:07:30Z] <midfavila> it's an autism sandbox
[2021-06-02T03:07:40Z] <midfavila> the game doesn't even try to stop you from doing the weirdest shit you can think of
[2021-06-02T03:07:43Z] <riteo> now I see what you mean
[2021-06-02T03:08:12Z] <riteo> too bad that the translation is bad as usual
[2021-06-02T03:08:18Z] <midfavila> "oh, you want to mount a road-roller's drum to a tricycle and then power that with biofuel? go for it."
[2021-06-02T03:08:23Z] <riteo> I swear nobody knows how to translate properly in italian anymore
[2021-06-02T03:08:29Z] <midfavila> mama mia
[2021-06-02T03:08:37Z] <midfavila> this translation's a spicy-a meat ball
[2021-06-02T03:08:40Z] <riteo> all they do is mash up english words and call it a day
[2021-06-02T03:08:45Z] <riteo> WHAT THE FUCK IS CRAFTARE?
[2021-06-02T03:08:52Z] <riteo> SERIOUSLY, THAT ISN'T ITALIAN
[2021-06-02T03:08:55Z] <midfavila> you mean that italian *isn't* just discount english?
[2021-06-02T03:08:57Z] <midfavila> :thinking:
[2021-06-02T03:09:20Z] <riteo> nowadays people thing that english is "professional" and all they do is talk in english, but not quite
[2021-06-02T03:09:47Z] <midfavila> oof.
[2021-06-02T03:09:49Z] <riteo> there's literally a niche of people talking in a less italianglish way
[2021-06-02T03:09:53Z] <riteo> it's a fucking niche
[2021-06-02T03:10:30Z] <riteo> like, taking the example before, they took the word "craft" and put the verb suffix "are" on it
[2021-06-02T03:10:41Z] <riteo> ta-da, we got "craftare", which doesn't mean fucking nothing
[2021-06-02T03:10:54Z] <riteo> because everybody forgot about "fabbricare"
[2021-06-02T03:11:11Z] <midfavila> that sucks :\
[2021-06-02T03:11:28Z] <riteo> and the fun part is that's so engrained in the fabric of society that people outright defend it
[2021-06-02T03:11:57Z] <riteo> "but it's what everybody uses now, who would understand me?" "but it's shorter" "but it's more PROFESSIONAL" "but it's technical language"
[2021-06-02T03:12:21Z] <riteo> we literally had to tell the same thing to any new member into our community about that bullshit
[2021-06-02T03:12:27Z] <riteo> ok, ok, end of the rant
[2021-06-02T03:12:45Z] <riteo> sorry, it came by, I really care about that stuff
[2021-06-02T03:12:47Z] <midfavila> nah, I get why you're frustrated
[2021-06-02T03:12:52Z] <midfavila> that would make me really angry too
[2021-06-02T03:13:18Z] <riteo> well, one step at a time I guess
[2021-06-02T03:13:58Z] <riteo> for example I'm completely revisiting the italian translation of godot and actually writing a style guide with list of proper, community approved translations that are actually italian (at least most of the times)
[2021-06-02T03:14:25Z] <midfavila> now I know two people who contribute to godot
[2021-06-02T03:14:43Z] <riteo> you know, it isn't exactly accessible to have a "translation" which is 40% english words for a program which is supposed to be as accessible as possible to everyone
[2021-06-02T03:14:55Z] <midfavila> for sure.
[2021-06-02T03:15:09Z] <riteo> godot's community is very good
[2021-06-02T03:15:30Z] <riteo> it's probably one of the best big communities I've ever been into
[2021-06-02T03:15:59Z] <midfavila> i can't say I've ever been in a good, "large" community
[2021-06-02T03:16:07Z] <riteo> like, you look at Unity's community and it's fine I guess, as long as you ignore all of the weird people and obsessed noobs, but godot's community is just, sweet
[2021-06-02T03:16:34Z] <riteo> also, the main developer is extremely based
[2021-06-02T03:17:54Z] <midfavila> howso
[2021-06-02T03:18:35Z] <riteo> also, I gone to the italian community guy and I talked about him about the translation issues and he was like "I've never seen you, so here's the italian community wordpress' admin and write your proposal, also, you're a moderator on discord"
[2021-06-02T03:18:40Z] <riteo> and that really struk me
[2021-06-02T03:18:44Z] <riteo> midfavila: what do you mean?
[2021-06-02T03:18:56Z] <midfavila> how is the developer based
[2021-06-02T03:19:26Z] <riteo> mhh, lemme think of a good example
[2021-06-02T03:21:27Z] <riteo> oh yeah I think i found it
[2021-06-02T03:21:31Z] <riteo> old example, still very good
[2021-06-02T03:21:53Z] <riteo> https://godotengine.org/article/godot-now-really-free
[2021-06-02T03:22:47Z] <riteo> he's got some very strong ideas about open software which are very good and it shows most times on how godot comes out, both architecturally wise and community wise
[2021-06-02T03:23:30Z] <midfavila> haha, yeah, I can see why you would say he's based
[2021-06-02T03:23:32Z] <midfavila> this is great
[2021-06-02T03:23:55Z] <riteo> also, he's not one of those guys who elevates himself
[2021-06-02T03:24:02Z] <riteo> you can talk with him anytime on their rocketchat
[2021-06-02T03:24:08Z] <riteo> along with everybody else
[2021-06-02T03:24:16Z] <midfavila> very cool.
[2021-06-02T03:24:42Z] <riteo> yeah, a really nice piece of software
[2021-06-02T03:24:47Z] <riteo> also MIT, which is a nice touch
[2021-06-02T03:24:53Z] <midfavila> i've heard it's nice, yeah
[2021-06-02T03:25:14Z] <midfavila> the other godot contributor I know refuses to use any other engine
[2021-06-02T03:25:15Z] <riteo> it also let me find out how nvidia is messed up
[2021-06-02T03:25:22Z] <riteo> midfavila: and for good reasons
[2021-06-02T03:25:30Z] <riteo> if something's bad, just fix it
[2021-06-02T03:25:34Z] <riteo> that's the idea behind it
[2021-06-02T03:25:43Z] <midfavila> ...he also wrote a Java-based window manager based on Godot's interface
[2021-06-02T03:25:46Z] <midfavila> ...so.
[2021-06-02T03:25:48Z] <midfavila> you know.
[2021-06-02T03:25:54Z] <riteo> oh
[2021-06-02T03:26:03Z] <midfavila> he's kind of eccentric :p 
[2021-06-02T03:26:12Z] <riteo> yeah people go pretty crazy with it
[2021-06-02T03:26:31Z] <riteo> it's very light for a full-fledged game engine
[2021-06-02T03:26:42Z] <riteo> like, ridicolously light considering it's competing with unity
[2021-06-02T03:26:43Z] <midfavila> like 120mb or something right?
[2021-06-02T03:26:47Z] <riteo> less
[2021-06-02T03:26:51Z] <midfavila> damn
[2021-06-02T03:27:25Z] <riteo> the compressed download (statically linked iirc) is 35 MBs
[2021-06-02T03:27:52Z] <riteo> if you want C# support too it's basically that doubled
[2021-06-02T03:28:14Z] <riteo> also you don't have to install anything, it's one file and the editor is a godot game itself
[2021-06-02T03:29:20Z] <riteo> there's still *a lot* of work to do to get it real polished and cleaned up, but it's more than usable in its latest stable version
[2021-06-02T03:30:03Z] <riteo> like, the upcoming version has a completely new vulkan renderer written from scratch by the main dev and multiwindow support to give an example
[2021-06-02T03:30:10Z] <midfavila> neato
[2021-06-02T03:30:43Z] <riteo> but he also has long term plans, like (my favourite) making first-party addons which add less-essentials features, making the engine lighter
[2021-06-02T03:31:16Z] <riteo> since you can write native stuff for godot and what not
[2021-06-02T03:31:42Z] <riteo> I could talk for hours probably on this quite neat piece of software
[2021-06-02T03:32:37Z] <riteo> oh shit it's 5:30 AM
[2021-06-02T03:32:59Z] <riteo> I think I'll go to sleep for now, as usual it's been a pleasure to talk with you
[2021-06-02T03:33:08Z] <riteo> bye!
[2021-06-02T03:33:14Z] <midfavila> see you, riteo
[2021-06-02T03:33:19Z] <midfavila> i need to sleep soon myself
[2021-06-02T03:37:02Z] <midfavila> yeah, I'm off for the night... see you later, guys
[2021-06-02T05:37:55Z] <testuser[m]_> hi
[2021-06-02T05:48:06Z] <acheam>  a later than usual hello to you, testuser[m]_
[2021-06-02T11:18:51Z] <zenomat> can I use kiss-chroot interchangably with arch-chroot? from my understanding they basically do the same thing
[2021-06-02T11:20:53Z] <testuser[m]_> why not
[2021-06-02T11:21:05Z] <testuser[m]_> chroot scripts just bind mount dev proc sys and stuff
[2021-06-02T11:21:19Z] <zenomat> yeah, that is what i fugred. just wanted to confirm
[2021-06-02T11:21:36Z] <testuser[m]_> arch's might try to mount some extra dirs that might not exist on a kiss imstall but otherwise its same
[2021-06-02T11:24:40Z] <soliwilos> I've used it out of convenience with other linux roots.
[2021-06-02T11:26:03Z] <soliwilos> I used to mount the needed stuff manually prior to kiss's kiss-chroot.
[2021-06-02T11:32:17Z] <zenomat> alright, thanks
[2021-06-02T13:17:25Z] <jslick> one thing to watch out for: kiss-chroot removes the resolv.conf on exit
[2021-06-02T14:02:06Z] <testuser[m]_> asdf
[2021-06-02T14:02:28Z] <omanom> it worked!
[2021-06-02T14:41:01Z] <omanom> midfavila is this your alter ego: https://stepcity.github.io/about.html
[2021-06-02T14:43:20Z] <midfavila> that just looks like me, if I actually attended a high school.
[2021-06-02T14:46:36Z] <midfavila> >he uses seamonkey and knows what BNA is
[2021-06-02T14:46:38Z] <midfavila> holy fucking shit
[2021-06-02T14:46:45Z] <midfavila> this is insanely based you guys
[2021-06-02T14:48:25Z] <midfavila> "We were also now in direct sight of the children mentioned earlier. Immediately, as though he were a dog running in a game of fetch, he ran towards my dad. Thankfully, his parental unit intercepted him (small children can only run so fast)"
[2021-06-02T14:48:29Z] <midfavila> i should email this guy
[2021-06-02T14:48:48Z] <omanom> https://stepcity.github.io/common/blog/7-13-20/post.html
[2021-06-02T14:49:15Z] <midfavila> man, I should post on my blog again soon...
[2021-06-02T14:50:18Z] <omanom> only if you start adding spooky skeletons and make use of <marquee> everywhere possible
[2021-06-02T14:51:18Z] <midfavila> have you not seen the big "Browser Neutral Site" gif
[2021-06-02T14:51:24Z] <midfavila> i only use html4-compliant tags
[2021-06-02T14:51:26Z] <midfavila> =w=
[2021-06-02T14:52:42Z] <omanom> do they still have <blink> at least?
[2021-06-02T14:52:57Z] <midfavila> also, excessive use of spoops would mean that the experience is different across text and GUI browsers
[2021-06-02T14:53:04Z] <midfavila> ...although I guess I could use ascii spoops
[2021-06-02T14:55:38Z] <midfavila> https://stepcity.github.io/common/blog/7-10-20/scrot.png
[2021-06-02T14:55:42Z] <midfavila> look at this desktop
[2021-06-02T14:56:10Z] <midfavila> aside from inconsistent theming between the Qt3/4 and GTK3 programs, i approve
[2021-06-02T14:56:21Z] <riteo> hii!
[2021-06-02T14:56:25Z] <midfavila> but, ngl, the feh kinda ruins it
[2021-06-02T14:56:27Z] <midfavila> oh, hey riteo
[2021-06-02T14:56:28Z] <midfavila> 'sup?
[2021-06-02T14:56:39Z] <omanom> winamp laughs at your pathetic theming
[2021-06-02T14:56:54Z] <midfavila> winamp is cringe
[2021-06-02T14:56:55Z] <riteo> all good, I had trouble sleeping though
[2021-06-02T14:56:59Z] <midfavila> that's a mood
[2021-06-02T14:57:06Z] <midfavila> i haven't slept well for maybe a week
[2021-06-02T14:57:16Z] <riteo> well, it's kinda my fault if I keep messing up my sleep schedule xD
[2021-06-02T14:57:25Z] <riteo> like, yesterday I woke up at 8 PM
[2021-06-02T14:57:31Z] <midfavila> wh-
[2021-06-02T14:57:48Z] <riteo> yes, as soon as I came from school I slept until 8 PM
[2021-06-02T14:57:59Z] <riteo> because before I slept like 2 hours
[2021-06-02T14:58:17Z] <riteo> don't worry about it
[2021-06-02T15:46:03Z] <dante> Man
[2021-06-02T15:46:13Z] <dante> Anyone works with chroot and steam?
[2021-06-02T15:46:31Z] <testuser[m]_> ye why
[2021-06-02T15:46:36Z] <dante> I try everything to run proton games
[2021-06-02T15:46:44Z] <dante> But not works
[2021-06-02T15:46:46Z] <dante> It sucks
[2021-06-02T15:47:06Z] <testuser[m]_> be more descriptive
[2021-06-02T15:47:11Z] <dante> So
[2021-06-02T15:47:21Z] <dante> I installed void linux chroot
[2021-06-02T15:47:28Z] <dante> Okay it runs native linux games
[2021-06-02T15:47:33Z] <dante> But with non native
[2021-06-02T15:47:42Z] <dante> I had error with bubblewrap
[2021-06-02T15:47:42Z] <testuser[m]_> what errors do you get
[2021-06-02T15:47:48Z] <testuser[m]_> oh
[2021-06-02T15:47:52Z] <testuser[m]_> you need user namespaces enabled in kernel
[2021-06-02T15:47:56Z] <dante> Yes
[2021-06-02T15:47:59Z] <dante> I did it
[2021-06-02T15:48:00Z] <dante> And
[2021-06-02T15:48:00Z] <testuser[m]_> and they dont work in chroots
[2021-06-02T15:48:15Z] <dante> Lol
[2021-06-02T15:48:17Z] <testuser[m]_> i use bwrap itself to create a virtual fs
[2021-06-02T15:48:25Z] <testuser[m]_> so it nests namespaces
[2021-06-02T15:48:29Z] <testuser[m]_> wait
[2021-06-02T15:49:03Z] <testuser[m]_> https://git.git-bruh.duckdns.org/dotfiles/file/bin/steam.html
[2021-06-02T15:49:27Z] <testuser[m]_> https://git.git-bruh.duckdns.org/dotfiles/file/bin/flags.sh.html 
[2021-06-02T15:49:45Z] <testuser[m]_> modify flags to bind mount X11 stuff from /tmp, and your video card from /dev
[2021-06-02T15:50:25Z] <dante> Hmmm
[2021-06-02T15:50:35Z] <dante> So it works well with non native?
[2021-06-02T15:51:14Z] <testuser[m]_> i tried brawlhalla with it 
[2021-06-02T15:51:24Z] <testuser[m]_> which uses proton
[2021-06-02T15:51:28Z] <dante> Maybe works so
[2021-06-02T15:51:34Z] <dante> Only works pvz with me lol
[2021-06-02T15:52:00Z] <dante> I used a arch chroot with bwrap suid package
[2021-06-02T15:52:33Z] <dante> But arch had a fucking problem with alsa cards
[2021-06-02T15:52:49Z] <dante> I will try your solution thanks
[2021-06-02T15:53:00Z] <testuser[m]_> i like this much better cuz u dont need any form of root access
[2021-06-02T15:53:21Z] <testuser[m]_> you'll have to tweak it a bit for your setup tho
[2021-06-02T15:54:34Z] <dante> I hope it works with my games
[2021-06-02T17:49:25Z] <midfavila> i have decided that I dislike racket
[2021-06-02T17:49:52Z] <midfavila> or, at the very least, I dislike its environment
[2021-06-02T17:49:56Z] <midfavila> everything is so goddamn slow
[2021-06-02T17:50:02Z] <kayw> yeah dr. racket is kinda meh
[2021-06-02T17:50:15Z] <kayw> but it's honestly the best IDE for racket
[2021-06-02T17:50:22Z] <midfavila> only reason I'm setting it up is because HtDP is intended to be used with it
[2021-06-02T17:50:49Z] <midfavila> i bought a copy recently, intend to work through it. probably alternate between K&R one day, HtDP or SICP the next
[2021-06-02T17:51:34Z] <kayw> I tried to teach myself SICP but i gave up after some time, I just couldn't stick to it
[2021-06-02T17:51:44Z] <midfavila> SICP is dry
[2021-06-02T17:51:56Z] <midfavila> i can only work through maybe fifty pages in a sitting on a good day
[2021-06-02T17:52:14Z] <midfavila> after that my eyes just kind of glaze over
[2021-06-02T17:52:21Z] <midfavila> it helps to watch the tapes though
[2021-06-02T17:52:29Z] <midfavila> GJS gives me wholesome old man vibes
[2021-06-02T17:52:53Z] <kayw> oh HtDP looks good
[2021-06-02T17:52:57Z] <midfavila> it is.
[2021-06-02T17:53:06Z] <midfavila> it's designed as a sort-of-not-really companion to SICP
[2021-06-02T17:53:06Z] <kayw> maybe i'll read this
[2021-06-02T17:53:10Z] <midfavila> basically,
[2021-06-02T17:53:22Z] <midfavila> if SICP covers the application of technical skill, HtDP covers everything else
[2021-06-02T17:53:26Z] <midfavila> all the "soft skills" of programming
[2021-06-02T17:53:32Z] <midfavila> at least, that's how I view it
[2021-06-02T17:54:07Z] <midfavila> i've also bought a copy of Introduction to Algorithms recently. I'm hoping that after polishing my maths and LISP knowledge some more, I'll be able to make good use of it
[2021-06-02T17:58:08Z] <kayw> I really want to learn scheme of some sort, and Racket seems to be the best for me tbh
[2021-06-02T17:59:25Z] <midfavila> well, if you want a smooth introduction, I imagine Racket would help with that
[2021-06-02T17:59:32Z] <midfavila> it's kind of designed as babby's first language
[2021-06-02T17:59:36Z] <midfavila> (I say this in a good way)
[2021-06-02T18:00:18Z] <kayw> yeah I also tried reading Realm of Racket but it felt very all over the place to me
[2021-06-02T18:02:05Z] <midfavila> honestly, I'm not going to really bother learning a specific language. at least at first
[2021-06-02T18:02:25Z] <midfavila> ...aside from C, but that's only because my OS is predominantly C
[2021-06-02T18:02:44Z] <midfavila> i really need to work on my general knowledge
[2021-06-02T18:06:22Z] <omanom> https://martinfowler.com/eaaCatalog/
[2021-06-02T18:06:49Z] <omanom> knowing common design patterns can help, especially when reading code in a programming language you don't know or aren't used to
[2021-06-02T18:07:41Z] <midfavila> makes sense. that stuff can come later though
[2021-06-02T18:10:35Z] <sad_plan> why on earth does grub error out on licences being incompatible? when compiling I mean
[2021-06-02T18:11:09Z] <sad_plan> build-grub-module-verifier: error: disk.mod.tmp: incompatible license.
[2021-06-02T18:11:18Z] <midfavila> because it's part of the GNU project
[2021-06-02T18:11:22Z] <midfavila> would you expect anything less?
[2021-06-02T18:12:33Z] <sad_plan> hardiharhar. i dunno, gnu stuff is great in some ways, but also a horrible mess aswell
[2021-06-02T18:12:36Z] <sad_plan> build-grub-module-verifier: error: disk.mod.tmp: incompatible license.
[2021-06-02T18:12:54Z] <sad_plan> ^ and a couple more
[2021-06-02T18:16:20Z] <sad_plan> I am actually tempted to just boot straight from the kernel instead though. less stuff that can go wrong. or something :p
[2021-06-02T18:18:25Z] <testuser[m]_> pretty much everything from gnu is garbage
[2021-06-02T18:18:29Z] <testuser[m]_> are you on uefi sad_plan 
[2021-06-02T18:18:33Z] <sad_plan> yeah
[2021-06-02T18:18:41Z] <testuser[m]_> then just use efistub
[2021-06-02T18:19:16Z] <sad_plan> Im guessing fixing this isnt trivial? did you encunter it yourself?
[2021-06-02T18:19:35Z] <testuser[m]_> no theres no need to use grub
[2021-06-02T18:20:30Z] <sad_plan> not unless you boot several OS', which I currently dont anyway. but yeah. Ill look into it. I know Ive already got efistub compiled into kernel and stuff. atleast one config iirc
[2021-06-02T18:21:23Z] <testuser[m]_> i dont think you need grub for multiple OSes, cant you just choose from the uefi menu
[2021-06-02T18:22:03Z] <sad_plan> im not sure. I do recall trying to look that up, but I dont recall finding anything worthwhile. but yeah, im sure you can. not that its of any issue, as I only run kiss anyway
[2021-06-02T18:33:43Z] <dilyn> if your motherboard supports it (for instance my macbook pro doesn't), you can open the 'boot menu' and it may very well show you EFI boot entries to choose from directly 
[2021-06-02T18:34:04Z] <dilyn> otherwise you can use efibootmgr to change the order, or temporary mark one entry as the next to boot and not change the order
[2021-06-02T18:35:09Z] <sad_plan> I recall having to add that when I switched out my ssd for the laptop
[2021-06-02T18:35:22Z] <midfavila> if I ever encounter the developers of CMake or AppImage, I'm going to have a nice chat with them
[2021-06-02T18:35:44Z] <sad_plan> hm, yeah. im currently fetching the latest kernel, so gonna go over the configs to see if I cant get efistub to work, and Ill ditch grub altogether. but Ill keep that stuff in mind :D
[2021-06-02T18:37:23Z] <illiliti> dilyn: please add ipv6 support to k1sslinux.org
[2021-06-02T18:37:38Z] <sad_plan> why? I though everyone hated on ipv6?
[2021-06-02T18:37:40Z] <dilyn> ewwww
[2021-06-02T18:37:48Z] <sad_plan> ^ 
[2021-06-02T18:37:52Z] <dilyn> lol
[2021-06-02T18:37:53Z] <midfavila> use ipv4 illiilti
[2021-06-02T18:37:54Z] <midfavila> smh
[2021-06-02T18:37:59Z] <dilyn> ipv4 is trash
[2021-06-02T18:38:08Z] <noocsharp> ^
[2021-06-02T18:38:13Z] <midfavila> ipv6 is even worse.
[2021-06-02T18:38:24Z] <sad_plan> pick you poison mf
[2021-06-02T18:38:26Z] <illiliti> ...
[2021-06-02T18:38:27Z] <dilyn> disagree
[2021-06-02T18:38:29Z] <noocsharp> at least there are enough addresses that you don't have to pay for them
[2021-06-02T18:38:38Z] <midfavila> lmao
[2021-06-02T18:38:39Z] <illiliti> i'm tired of this anti-ipv6 horseshit
[2021-06-02T18:38:50Z] <midfavila> if you think ipv6 will result in everyone getting their own static address, you're a dumbass.
[2021-06-02T18:38:53Z] <dilyn> XD
[2021-06-02T18:38:56Z] <midfavila> ISPs won't give up on charging for that.
[2021-06-02T18:39:08Z] <noocsharp> but my vps provider doesn't
[2021-06-02T18:39:11Z] <sad_plan> I dont get why everyone hates on ipv6, so someone might enlighten my ignorance for that matter. or hate on ipv4 for that matter
[2021-06-02T18:39:28Z] <midfavila> ngl idc about VPSes
[2021-06-02T18:43:04Z] <dilyn> most people just don't like change 
[2021-06-02T18:43:23Z] <dilyn> and they think the entire stack is bad, and any 'new thing' that doesn't wholly gut the system and fix everything by rebuilding it 'is bad' 
[2021-06-02T18:43:34Z] <dilyn> even though it's literally impossible at this point to do what they would want. 
[2021-06-02T18:43:43Z] <omanom> i just hate the ipv6 notation
[2021-06-02T18:43:49Z] <midfavila> ipv6 notation is godawful
[2021-06-02T18:44:00Z] <dilyn> lol
[2021-06-02T18:44:11Z] <midfavila> but ignoring that, clearly what we need is a massive solar flare to wipe out most people's electronics
[2021-06-02T18:44:27Z] <sad_plan> Im sure that would be beneficial for all of humanity
[2021-06-02T18:44:35Z] <midfavila> what's left of it, anyway
[2021-06-02T18:45:10Z] <sad_plan> though alot of people would go mad some time after seeing as they no longer can post their shitty dinner on to instagram and whore for all those fake likes and all that dopamine
[2021-06-02T18:45:16Z] <illiliti> my isp provides dhcp /32 delegated prefix
[2021-06-02T18:45:17Z] <sad_plan> indeed ^
[2021-06-02T18:45:27Z] <illiliti> even more, ipv6 allows to bypass government restrictions on some sites
[2021-06-02T18:46:14Z] <midfavila> if you're trying to bypass government censorship, use a VPN or proxy or something...
[2021-06-02T18:46:59Z] <illiliti> i do but would rather use ipv6 to do that
[2021-06-02T18:47:00Z] <dilyn> 'use a strictly more complicated solution' 
[2021-06-02T18:47:23Z] <midfavila> i would argue that bouncing traffic between a box is less complex than an entirely new protocol.
[2021-06-02T18:47:49Z] <midfavila> also, it doesn't require the other side to explicitly support whatever shit you're pulling.
[2021-06-02T18:47:53Z] <midfavila> so, you know, consider the following.
[2021-06-02T18:48:02Z] <dilyn> setting up the connection to safely and securely route your traffic through an entirely different computer somewhere else in the world is NOT less complex than simply taking advantage of a protocol that already exists and is supported in basically every machine built since 2008
[2021-06-02T18:48:46Z] <omanom> >built since 2008
[2021-06-02T18:48:50Z] <omanom> you've offended my hardware.
[2021-06-02T18:49:00Z] <dilyn> good
[2021-06-02T18:49:02Z] <dilyn> :P  
[2021-06-02T18:49:07Z] <midfavila> ultimately, dilyn, I really don't fucking care
[2021-06-02T18:49:16Z] <dilyn> you clearly do tho lmao
[2021-06-02T18:49:18Z] <midfavila> and I don't have enough chill right now to argue with you about stupid bullshit
[2021-06-02T18:49:21Z] <midfavila> so like
[2021-06-02T18:49:24Z] <midfavila> actually fuck off
[2021-06-02T18:49:35Z] <dilyn> f
[2021-06-02T18:49:42Z] <omanom> do embedded systems tend to have ipv6 support?
[2021-06-02T18:49:54Z] <midfavila> i would imagine it's one or the other.
[2021-06-02T18:50:04Z] <midfavila> but if it's modern, probably ipv6.
[2021-06-02T18:50:24Z] <midfavila> gotta have enough IPs for every lightbulb and toilet to be uniquely identifiable.
[2021-06-02T18:51:19Z] <noocsharp> please, let's end this flamewar, i have a more pressing one: should i license my at daemon under mit or gpl3?
[2021-06-02T18:51:23Z] <omanom> well i was thinking like sensors but stuff like Zigbee is different so maybe it doesn't apply the way i was thinking
[2021-06-02T18:52:09Z] <omanom> i always tend towards MIT but i don't have a reason beyond "i don't really care what people do with my code"
[2021-06-02T18:52:30Z] <omanom> and MIT is teh smart ppl
[2021-06-02T18:52:47Z] <illiliti> s/MIT/ISC/
[2021-06-02T18:53:40Z] <midfavila> at that point just CCBYSA it or something. 
[2021-06-02T18:55:13Z] <omanom> or "DO WHAT THE FUCK YOU WANT TO PUBLIC LICENSE"!
[2021-06-02T18:55:29Z] <midfavila> wtfpl isn't even funny
[2021-06-02T18:55:31Z] <omanom> only requirement: you have to change the name of the software
[2021-06-02T18:55:33Z] <midfavila> it's just obnoxious
[2021-06-02T18:56:15Z] <illiliti> wtfpl is bad, unlicense is better
[2021-06-02T18:56:42Z] <kayw> WTFPL is really only good for projects that you don't care about
[2021-06-02T18:56:45Z] <kayw> like dotfiles
[2021-06-02T18:57:08Z] <noocsharp> i would use unlicense or cc0 for something like that
[2021-06-02T18:57:11Z] <midfavila> if you try to license a dotfile
[2021-06-02T18:57:14Z] <midfavila> i'm going to laugh at you
[2021-06-02T18:57:29Z] <midfavila> that's the same tier of "what the fuck are you smoking" as a proprietary color scheme.
[2021-06-02T18:57:38Z] <illiliti> lmao
[2021-06-02T18:58:08Z] <midfavila> "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO YOU CAN'T COPY MY STRING OF SIX HEX CHARACTERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
[2021-06-02T19:07:52Z] <sad_plan> dylin: the kernel make bug that you reported on the kiss site, is still present at 5.12.8, if you didnt already knew.
[2021-06-02T19:08:02Z] <sad_plan> have anyone even reported that anyway?
[2021-06-02T19:10:08Z] <dilyn> there are alegedly PRs to fix it 
[2021-06-02T19:10:20Z] <dilyn> though I have not seen them nor know much about them (I read it in a blog post :v) 
[2021-06-02T19:11:17Z] <sad_plan> I do fint it a bit odd that this hasnt been fixed yet though. seeing as there was a rather easy fix for it aswell..
[2021-06-02T19:11:33Z] <dilyn> yeah, IDK 
[2021-06-02T19:11:41Z] <dilyn> harumph. nnn now requires fts...
[2021-06-02T19:14:59Z] <schillingklaus> what is nnn?
[2021-06-02T19:15:56Z] <illiliti> i never understood people who uses TUI file manager
[2021-06-02T19:16:30Z] <schillingklaus> why is this so?
[2021-06-02T19:16:36Z] <sad_plan> I dont even have a file manager. is that even worse? honestly I just use ls
[2021-06-02T19:16:39Z] <sad_plan> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
[2021-06-02T19:16:45Z] <illiliti> me too
[2021-06-02T19:16:57Z] <illiliti> i think ls/cd/.. should be enough
[2021-06-02T19:17:09Z] <dilyn> they use it... for threading `du`?
[2021-06-02T19:17:14Z] <dilyn> https://github.com/jarun/nnn/commit/284a3c4866b77f0d452d91aaf026068dd1e44cb1
[2021-06-02T19:17:19Z] <sad_plan> its sufficient for me. using the terminal just does all that we need anyway
[2021-06-02T19:17:35Z] <sad_plan> so a FM is just redundant for me anyway
[2021-06-02T19:17:39Z] <omanom> ranger or the like is faster for me to find stuff and get to it if i don't remember the full path
[2021-06-02T19:19:49Z] <sad_plan> regarding the efistub, do I just copy the bzimage into /efi/efi/kiss/bzimage-(uname-r)? or is there anything else to think about?
[2021-06-02T19:20:14Z] <sad_plan> gentoo wiki atleast says so, but I wanna ask before I bork my system and make it unbootable untill I can fix it p
[2021-06-02T19:20:16Z] <sad_plan> :p *
[2021-06-02T19:22:33Z] <schillingklaus> vim and emacs have some built-in file management ability
[2021-06-02T19:26:49Z] <illiliti> let g:loaded_netrwPlugin = 1 " disable nonsense file manager
[2021-06-02T19:27:02Z] <illiliti> xd
[2021-06-02T19:27:03Z] <jslick> different people have different workflows & preferences
[2021-06-02T19:28:02Z] <dante> testuser[m]_: 
[2021-06-02T19:28:24Z] <dante> Your scripts need something more thand a modify?
[2021-06-02T19:29:34Z] <noocsharp> jslick: there is precisely one right for anybody to do a given thing, and that way is the way i do it
[2021-06-02T19:31:18Z] <jslick> ah my bad, noocsharp: do you use nnn or fff or vifm?
[2021-06-02T19:31:38Z] <omanom> he sends AT commands to his modem, and the modem determines what file he wanted to access!
[2021-06-02T19:33:27Z] <dilyn> sad_plan: that question is super specific to however you've setup your efi partition
[2021-06-02T19:33:49Z] <claudia02> I ocasionally use 'ncdu' to quickly delete stuff. And see where space is going.
[2021-06-02T19:34:06Z] <dilyn> I have /dev/nvme0n1 as my efi partition, and i mount it to /boot. I used to just throw my kernels into /boot/vmlinuz-$ver, but recently I've taken to putting them into /boot/efi/KISS/vmlinuz
[2021-06-02T19:34:59Z] <sad_plan> ffs, couldnt boot with efistub. couldnt find any bootable media. even though I added the .efi into uefi..
[2021-06-02T19:35:57Z] <dilyn> we'd have to know 1) how your disks are setup and 2) what entry you're using is 
[2021-06-02T19:36:10Z] <sad_plan> i got /efi as a separate partiton, so mines just /efi/kiss/kernel now. boot is as usual..
[2021-06-02T19:36:55Z] <sad_plan> sda1 is /efi, 2 is swap, 3 is / and 4 is home
[2021-06-02T19:37:31Z] <sad_plan> i put the uuid into kernel commandline, like gentoo wiki said. the partuuid
[2021-06-02T19:38:19Z] <dilyn> what's the loader entry you're using? 
[2021-06-02T19:38:30Z] <illiliti> claudia02: you can script fzy/fzf to do the same thing
[2021-06-02T19:38:59Z] <dilyn> should just be '\kiss\kernel\$imageName'
[2021-06-02T19:39:36Z] <sad_plan> i dont belive I specifies that. where is that specified exacly?
[2021-06-02T19:39:44Z] <dilyn> --loader
[2021-06-02T19:40:25Z] <dante> dilyn
[2021-06-02T19:40:48Z] <dante> the new firefox is on this week in the repo?
[2021-06-02T19:41:11Z] <dilyn> my entry is something like `efibootmgr --create --disk /dev/nvme0n1 --part 1 --label wyverkiss --loader '\efi\KISS\vmlinuz' --unicode 'root=/dev/nvme0n1p2'`
[2021-06-02T19:41:24Z] <dilyn> with /dev/nvme0n1p1 mounted to /boot
[2021-06-02T19:41:31Z] <dilyn> i'm working on it rn dante :)  
[2021-06-02T19:41:42Z] <sad_plan> I didnt even install efibootmgr, as I figurwd id try without it 
[2021-06-02T19:41:58Z] * sad_plan shrugs
[2021-06-02T19:44:36Z] <claudia02> illiliti: Thanks. I will look into it.
[2021-06-02T19:45:02Z] <dilyn> gotta write those entries somehow :v 
[2021-06-02T19:45:41Z] <sad_plan> I suppose they do :p ok, so im back in a chroot now. 
[2021-06-02T19:46:55Z] <illiliti> https://github.com/illiliti/libudev-zero/issues/28
[2021-06-02T19:48:30Z] <sad_plan> dylin: did you put the vmlinuz into /efi instead of boot like usual? maybe that was the issue. do I need to not rename it with the version number aswell? i recall reading that somewhere
[2021-06-02T19:48:49Z] <sad_plan> as per the line you gave me, you did
[2021-06-02T19:50:44Z] <dilyn> there is so much conflicting nonsense in the universe about efi 
[2021-06-02T19:51:11Z] <dilyn> UEFI partitions don't need to be mounted anywhere special
[2021-06-02T19:51:56Z] <dilyn> illiliti: I guess make; cc src/helper.c helper is too difficult?
[2021-06-02T19:52:24Z] <illiliti> haha
[2021-06-02T19:52:37Z] <illiliti> looks like it is
[2021-06-02T19:53:18Z] <illiliti> contrib/* is fully detached from main sources
[2021-06-02T19:53:29Z] <illiliti> that's the point of contrib directory
[2021-06-02T19:58:32Z] <dilyn> if only people thought of it that way... 
[2021-06-02T20:05:09Z] <dante> sad_plan i use uefi but put my vmlinuz in boot and worked
[2021-06-02T20:09:20Z] <sad_plan> hm, I ha w vmlinuz in /boot and it didnt. i got to boot the kernel, but got some errors.  I ran out of time to look into it, so I gotta lool at it later, aswell as do some reading probably
[2021-06-02T20:23:49Z] <dante> Maybe is the kernel config or fstab
[2021-06-02T20:25:56Z] <sad_plan> I followed the gentoo wiki about it, so I dunno. tbh I disnt really look that much at the error either, just reinstalled grub so I could still boot the damn thing :')
[2021-06-02T20:50:06Z] <ang> sad_plan, you can also move vmlinuz to EFI/boot/bootx64.efi in your efi system partition
[2021-06-02T20:51:21Z] <ang> no need to add a boot entry then, but you have to use CONFIG_CMDLINE to set the root device and other options
[2021-06-02T20:54:08Z] <sad_plan> hm, cool. I did swt the kernel commandline, actually. maybe I set it wrong
[2021-06-02T20:55:20Z] <zr> dilyn: any chance of you taking a look at the GitHub pr's any time soon? No pressure, just like to have an idea of when it'd be reviewed
[2021-06-02T20:59:06Z] <ang> sad_plan: you didn't use efibootmgr to add a boot entry or did you?
[2021-06-02T21:00:13Z] <dilyn> zr: which ones? i've looked at all the ones in community
[2021-06-02T21:00:50Z] <dilyn> ah, there are some for the website! neat
[2021-06-02T21:00:52Z] <zr> Oh, I meant the ones in kiss-community/website, sorry for not ambiguity
[2021-06-02T21:00:54Z] <zr> yeah
[2021-06-02T21:02:15Z] <sad_plan> not initially no. i added the bzImage.efi into /efi/kiss/ and added that into the accepted section in uefi
[2021-06-02T21:03:16Z] <ang> wdym with accepted section?
[2021-06-02T21:04:03Z] <dilyn> http://ix.io/3oB7 mumble grumble 
[2021-06-02T21:04:41Z] <ang> but anyway, you either have to add a boot entry using efibootmgr, use a separate loader like gummiboot/grub/etc. or move the kernel to EFI/boot/bootx64.efi
[2021-06-02T21:05:08Z] <sad_plan> you can add your own .efi file, of whatever. I had add an efi entry for uefi go recognize a bootable media
[2021-06-02T21:06:04Z] <sad_plan> i added the kernel commandline asweøø, but I see now that I did not add the PartUUID. only the uuid
[2021-06-02T21:06:12Z] <ang> hmmm, I see
[2021-06-02T21:08:09Z] <sad_plan> yeah, so I have to find the partuuid once I get back onto my laptop. 
[2021-06-02T21:09:31Z] <sad_plan> and then add the bootentry with efibootmgr. cant I do this without efibootmgr? 
[2021-06-02T21:12:00Z] <omanom> dilyn what a mess of a log... what is even the error?!
[2021-06-02T21:12:25Z] <ang> sad_plan: I listed all the options above
[2021-06-02T21:12:45Z] <ang> including the route where you don't deen efibootmgr
[2021-06-02T21:12:49Z] <ang> need*
[2021-06-02T21:13:13Z] <sad_plan> aah, I found another mistake, I put tge UUID into the kernel cmdline, where as I shouldve entered PARTUUID. 
[2021-06-02T21:13:42Z] <sad_plan> oh, yea you did. I mustve read it a bit sloppy. my bad
[2021-06-02T21:14:36Z] <ang> np
[2021-06-02T21:14:52Z] <ang> yeah, using UUID is a common mistake
[2021-06-02T21:15:22Z] <sad_plan> yeah
[2021-06-02T21:15:37Z] <ang> I feel like the kernel step in the install instructions could be improved quite a bit
[2021-06-02T21:15:53Z] <sad_plan>  blkid doesnt work on kiss either. so how do you find on kiss? 
[2021-06-02T21:16:24Z] <sad_plan> yeah, theres always room for improvement, but theres just so many options..
[2021-06-02T21:16:47Z] <ang> uhm, good question, never needed to as I always got it from a different distro which hosted the installation
[2021-06-02T21:17:44Z] <sad_plan> I could just do that aswell :') usually boot my artix live usb if something goes wrong so. 
[2021-06-02T21:18:18Z] <sad_plan> and I belive blkid works on artix iirc
[2021-06-02T21:19:27Z] <omanom> i think the idea is you have knowledge of your disks (UUIDs/Labels/partitioning/etc) and your hardware (CPU/GPU/soundcard/wifi/etc) prior to installing KISS Linux
[2021-06-02T21:20:31Z] <riteo> oof I forgot to rejoin after crashing
[2021-06-02T21:21:11Z] <ang> sad_plan: you can also simly use root=/dev/sda3 (or whatever your root partition is)
[2021-06-02T21:21:36Z] <dilyn> blkid doesn't work with busybox; util-linux should be fine tho
[2021-06-02T21:22:52Z] <sad_plan> that too. but in gentoo wiki, they listed using the partuuid as preferable. thats really the only reason I chose to do so.
[2021-06-02T21:23:12Z] <sad_plan> ah, didnt know it worked with util-linux
[2021-06-02T21:23:15Z] <dilyn> if you only have the one block device /dev/sdXY is fine 
[2021-06-02T21:23:27Z] <sad_plan> ah ok
[2021-06-02T21:23:51Z] <dilyn> the best reason to use UUIDs is they aren't as volatile as /dev/sdXY entries 
[2021-06-02T21:24:00Z] <illiliti> gentoo has hard dependency on coreutils/util-linux. that's why they assume that blkid supports partuuid
[2021-06-02T21:24:08Z] <dilyn> ^ 
[2021-06-02T21:24:10Z] <illiliti> don't follow gentoo wiki blindly
[2021-06-02T21:24:11Z] <sad_plan> thats what I was thinking too
[2021-06-02T21:25:06Z] <dilyn> omanom: it's a problem very early on the build :v "error: no matching function for call to 'nsTHashtable<detail::VoidPtrHashKey>::WithEntryHandle(const void*&, const fallible_t&, "
[2021-06-02T21:25:19Z] <sad_plan> that was just my point of reference to start with. tbh I didnt have much expectations to have it boot without much effort.
[2021-06-02T21:25:20Z] <dilyn> void doesn't have a patch for it *yet* 
[2021-06-02T21:27:13Z] <sad_plan> illiliti: any news on the eiwd front? did they ever fold about the hard dependency on gcc you mentioned?
[2021-06-02T21:27:18Z] <ang> sad_plan: if you are comfortable recompilng your kernel whenever you want to change the kernel commandline, I think the EFI/boot/bootx64.efi way is the best option
[2021-06-02T21:28:16Z] <sad_plan> thats no issue for me tbh, so I belive Ill go that route. and iirc about what you wrote, I wont need efibootmgr either. 
[2021-06-02T21:28:25Z] <illiliti> sad_plan: https://lists.01.org/hyperkitty/list/iwd@lists.01.org/thread/WN5GH4VHT2FHZK5YVCRJVUPGTTKGX3XP/
[2021-06-02T21:28:30Z] <sad_plan> which is preferable
[2021-06-02T21:28:39Z] <ang> just gotta remember to move the vmlinuz after `make install`
[2021-06-02T21:29:13Z] <dilyn> the beauty of UEFI is that it can usually boot a 'default' efi application, and the kernel can be one of those things
[2021-06-02T21:29:24Z] <ang> yup
[2021-06-02T21:29:24Z] <dilyn> so yeah, no efibootmgr required
[2021-06-02T21:29:44Z] <ang> I had trouble with one of my mainboards though, which wouldn't pick it up
[2021-06-02T21:29:49Z] <ang> fuck standards I guess
[2021-06-02T21:30:05Z] <dilyn> yeah it's very implementation dependent. some board manufacturers will just do their own thing, standards be damned 
[2021-06-02T21:30:07Z] <sad_plan> illiliti: so no then, seeing as theres no respons.. 
[2021-06-02T21:30:15Z] <sad_plan> ang: nice!
[2021-06-02T21:32:24Z] <ang> efibootmgr itself is fine, it's just that you have to have evifars mounted and all that jazz
[2021-06-02T21:33:49Z] <dilyn> it's not fine, it's GPL 
[2021-06-02T21:33:53Z] <sad_plan> yeah, less is more. and I find it bit ironic to ditch grub for efistub, to have less stuff, and actually end up with one more package than before :')
[2021-06-02T21:33:55Z] <ang> :DD
[2021-06-02T21:34:01Z] <sad_plan> lol
[2021-06-02T21:36:11Z] <ang> you still save one step in your boot process by ditching a bootloader
[2021-06-02T21:36:43Z] <ang> but sure, EFI/boot/bootx64.efi even saves you a package
[2021-06-02T21:37:38Z] <sad_plan> indeed
[2021-06-02T21:39:26Z] <ang> fingers crossed that it works with your mobos uefi
[2021-06-02T21:56:54Z] <m3g> Well damn, I just fell for fvwm
[2021-06-02T22:30:01Z] <sad_plan> ang: thanks. now I have to boot up my laptop again just to see if I can get this to work. 
[2021-06-02T22:38:06Z] <noocsharp> wtf, by default the pinephone starts thermal throttling when it reaches 75°C
[2021-06-02T22:39:26Z] <noocsharp> which is uncomfortably hot
[2021-06-02T22:41:14Z] <noocsharp> but now that i figured out how to get it to throttle at lower temperatures i don't have to shut it off every 15 minutes :>
[2021-06-02T22:44:35Z] <m3g> Imagine pinephone with fvwm gestures
[2021-06-02T22:51:23Z] <sad_plan> kernel panic. cant mount root
[2021-06-02T22:52:00Z] <sad_plan> no filesystem could mount root. i fixed the partuuid in kernel, and recompiled. 
[2021-06-02T22:52:39Z] <sad_plan> root is apearantly on unknown block
[2021-06-02T23:08:28Z] <illiliti> make sure that kernel compiled with builtin modules
[2021-06-02T23:18:09Z] <sad_plan> it is. i have not used any modules at all.
[2021-06-02T23:18:29Z] <noocsharp> m3g: im not familiar with fvwm, what's so special about it's gestures?
[2021-06-02T23:22:11Z] <m3g> noocsharp: iirc there's some documentation that describes it being able to gestures beyond mouseclicking in certain positions
[2021-06-02T23:22:38Z] <m3g> s/to/to do/
[2021-06-02T23:23:23Z] <m3g> could do a pretty simple 'touch ui' with some fiddling
[2021-06-02T23:33:41Z] <illiliti> sad_plan: check that 'root=' option isn't malformed and currectly passed on kernel command line. also ensure that partuuid or whatever you use is correctly points to root partition
[2021-06-02T23:35:15Z] <illiliti> unknown block error in general means that kernel unable to mount root partition due to misconfigured modules or incorrect 'root=' option
[2021-06-02T23:36:27Z] <illiliti> and in rare cases it means that partition is corrupted
[2021-06-02T23:37:55Z] <sad_plan> the partition is definitly not corrupted, as Im perfectly able to boot into it. theres some misconfigiration here, Im just not sure where. could be partuuid. can doublecheck to be sure aswell
[2021-06-02T23:40:40Z] <illiliti> doublecheck that efibootmgr(uefi in general) is working correctly
[2021-06-02T23:41:24Z] <illiliti> some uefi variants doesn't support passing command line params to kernel
[2021-06-02T23:41:31Z] <illiliti> https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Efibootmgr
[2021-06-02T23:41:42Z] <sad_plan> im not using efibootmgr. like ang said, thats possible, aslong as you just mske your own bootentry.
[2021-06-02T23:42:43Z] <sad_plan> support might be questionable, but I dont have any signicantly rare laptop either..
[2021-06-02T23:42:49Z] <illiliti> fine
[2021-06-02T23:44:43Z] <illiliti> you can also compile options into kernel itself without needing to pass it dynamically if your uefi is broken