💾 Archived View for gemini.ctrl-c.club › ~phoebos › logs › freenode-kisslinux-2021-02-02.txt captured on 2023-01-29 at 03:58:03.

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⬅️ Previous capture (2021-12-17)

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2021-02-02T01:07:50 #kisslinux <claudia02> aloha
2021-02-02T01:08:03 #kisslinux <midfavila1> 'ello
2021-02-02T01:08:07 #kisslinux <claudia02> I got ffmpeg to build on obsd (: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/sdsddsd1/potpourri/main/screeni.jpg
2021-02-02T01:08:11 #kisslinux <claudia02> :D:D
2021-02-02T01:08:26 #kisslinux <midfavila1> Nice
2021-02-02T01:08:39 #kisslinux <sh4rm4^bnc> isn't ffmpeg supposed to be super portable anyways
2021-02-02T01:09:13 #kisslinux <claudia02> Yes. But
2021-02-02T01:09:15 #kisslinux <claudia02> ...
2021-02-02T01:10:22 #kisslinux <claudia02> I have encountered some problems with the dynamic linker. .so files are not always build with the correct versions. Seems to be an obsd specific topic.
2021-02-02T01:11:14 #kisslinux <sh4rm4^bnc> last time i tried obsd it was so crappy i almost got to puke
2021-02-02T01:11:28 #kisslinux <midfavila1> openbsd seems to be a controversial OS
2021-02-02T01:11:40 #kisslinux <midfavila1> some people say it's the best thing since sliced bread, other people can't stand it
2021-02-02T01:11:50 #kisslinux <sh4rm4^bnc> i actually wrote up a document with like 3 pages about what sucks about it
2021-02-02T01:12:37 #kisslinux <midfavila1> so then what's your take on the other BSDs? :p
2021-02-02T01:12:42 #kisslinux <claudia02> I thought its the honey of *the internet*
2021-02-02T01:12:46 #kisslinux <midfavila1> I don't have a ton of experience on that side of the grass
2021-02-02T01:13:12 #kisslinux <sh4rm4^bnc> i tried freebsd and desktopbsd, was quite smooth, especially the latter
2021-02-02T01:13:39 #kisslinux <midfavila1> is't desktop just PC-BSD with a new name?
2021-02-02T01:14:02 #kisslinux <sh4rm4^bnc> iirc it's freebsd with some UX enhancements
2021-02-02T01:14:12 #kisslinux <midfavila1> Aah
2021-02-02T01:14:14 #kisslinux <claudia02> I tried to setup a machine with netbsd9.1 and kiss but some of the coreutils(install?) was not working with some package flags. Also sha256 was missing in base.
2021-02-02T01:14:20 #kisslinux <midfavila1> I've only ever used Dragonfly and Net
2021-02-02T01:15:43 #kisslinux <sh4rm4^bnc> though it's already hard enough to get all hardware working even on linux
2021-02-02T01:15:54 #kisslinux <midfavila1> i blame the manufacturers
2021-02-02T01:16:00 #kisslinux <sh4rm4^bnc> i guess to have everything working one needs a 10 year old IBM thinkpad
2021-02-02T01:16:06 #kisslinux <midfavila1> can't develop drivers without documentation
2021-02-02T01:16:07 #kisslinux <sh4rm4^bnc> with BSD that is
2021-02-02T01:16:28 #kisslinux <midfavila1> and I mean tbh the only thing I had trouble with on dragonfly was my mouse (which is weird) and audio (which I didn't bother to set up)
2021-02-02T01:17:38 #kisslinux <sh4rm4^bnc> now image you want your built-in SD card reader working, your touchpad and GPU acceleration
2021-02-02T01:19:27 #kisslinux <claudia02> Luckily I am pleased with an 10y old supported machine :D
2021-02-02T01:19:41 #kisslinux <claudia02> Ootb everything works
2021-02-02T01:19:46 #kisslinux <sh4rm4^bnc> cool
2021-02-02T01:20:11 #kisslinux <sh4rm4^bnc> even monitor mode with your wifi chip ? j/k
2021-02-02T01:20:23 #kisslinux <midfavila1> i find that the only stuff that doesn't Just Werk:tm: on FLOSS systems nowadays is like
2021-02-02T01:20:34 #kisslinux <claudia02> Luckily I dont know what that is, so I have no use :p
2021-02-02T01:20:42 #kisslinux <midfavila1> either literally just released yesterday hardware, or the really shitty chinesium laptops for 300$
2021-02-02T01:20:46 #kisslinux <midfavila1> ...or novideo
2021-02-02T01:20:50 #kisslinux <dilyn> lol
2021-02-02T01:21:02 #kisslinux <dilyn> my girlfriend's printer was surprisingly simple to setup, if a bit opaque
2021-02-02T01:21:11 #kisslinux <midfavila1> that's CUPS for you
2021-02-02T01:21:17 #kisslinux <dilyn> didn't even use cups!
2021-02-02T01:21:24 #kisslinux <sh4rm4^bnc> ^_^
2021-02-02T01:21:25 #kisslinux <dilyn> just the firmware, then interact with it via the internet
2021-02-02T01:21:30 #kisslinux <dilyn> thank god it was a smart printer lmfao
2021-02-02T01:21:33 #kisslinux <sh4rm4^bnc> oh nice
2021-02-02T01:21:50 #kisslinux <midfavila1> >smart printer
2021-02-02T01:21:54 #kisslinux <dilyn> i imagine if I wanted to try a little harder it would be even easier
2021-02-02T01:21:54 #kisslinux <midfavila1> imagine not using a dot matrix
2021-02-02T01:22:02 #kisslinux <dilyn> but i've opted to just email docs to it instead
2021-02-02T01:22:09 #kisslinux <dilyn> imagine using a printer in 2021
2021-02-02T01:22:10 #kisslinux <dilyn> :v
2021-02-02T01:22:16 #kisslinux <midfavila1> literally just cat your files in raw ASCII to the printer device file
2021-02-02T01:22:18 #kisslinux <midfavila1> smh
2021-02-02T01:22:28 #kisslinux <claudia02> need a webbrowser for printing :D
2021-02-02T01:22:37 #kisslinux <midfavila1> the absolute state of computers
2021-02-02T01:22:38 #kisslinux <dilyn> just draw the files on the paper
2021-02-02T01:22:51 #kisslinux <midfavila1> just will the files into existence
2021-02-02T01:23:01 #kisslinux <claudia02> just use windows
2021-02-02T01:23:03 #kisslinux <claudia02> f
2021-02-02T01:23:11 #kisslinux <midfavila1> microshill detected
2021-02-02T01:23:16 #kisslinux <dilyn> spin up a vm just to print
2021-02-02T01:23:25 #kisslinux <midfavila1> could you fucking imagine
2021-02-02T01:23:43 #kisslinux <dilyn> 'this is my $10k pc. it was 3 3090s. I use it solely for printing documents'
2021-02-02T01:23:52 #kisslinux <dilyn> s/was/has/
2021-02-02T01:23:53 #kisslinux <kissbot> <dilyn> 'this is my $10k pc. it has 3 3090s. I use it solely for printing documents'
2021-02-02T01:24:14 #kisslinux <midfavila1> CEOs be like
2021-02-02T01:24:45 #kisslinux <midfavila1> imagine having 10k to dump on a workstation though
2021-02-02T01:24:52 #kisslinux <midfavila1> i'd love to get one of those talos ii systems
2021-02-02T01:25:08 #kisslinux <midfavila1> fuckn x86 peasants
2021-02-02T01:25:17 #kisslinux <dilyn> absolute unit
2021-02-02T01:25:18 #kisslinux <midfavila1> still using pcie 3.0 in $YEAR
2021-02-02T01:25:24 #kisslinux <dilyn> i can feel the flex from here
2021-02-02T01:25:34 #kisslinux <midfavila1> imagine not having PCIe 7
2021-02-02T01:25:45 #kisslinux <dilyn> imagine writing files to disk
2021-02-02T01:25:57 #kisslinux <dilyn> i rebuild my OS in RAM every time I boot my machine
2021-02-02T01:26:00 #kisslinux <dilyn> maximum throughput
2021-02-02T01:26:07 #kisslinux <midfavila1> literally compile your kernel every time you boot
2021-02-02T01:26:13 #kisslinux <midfavila1> use tcc rn
2021-02-02T01:26:58 #kisslinux <dilyn> run your webkitbrowser on bare metal
2021-02-02T01:27:06 #kisslinux <dilyn> kernels are bloat
2021-02-02T01:27:43 #kisslinux <midfavila1> fuck, you got me
2021-02-02T01:27:50 #kisslinux <midfavila1> although side note
2021-02-02T01:28:05 #kisslinux <midfavila1> can we just take a moment to wish that webkit wasn't complete and utter fucking garbage
2021-02-02T01:28:14 #kisslinux <midfavila1> like it's *so bad*
2021-02-02T01:28:17 #kisslinux <dilyn> no
2021-02-02T01:28:19 #kisslinux <dilyn> no we cannot
2021-02-02T01:28:29 #kisslinux <midfavila1> then can we at least go back to khtml
2021-02-02T01:28:30 #kisslinux <dilyn> too busy shilling to press f for webkit
2021-02-02T01:28:41 #kisslinux <dilyn> #usechrome
2021-02-02T01:31:29 #kisslinux <midfavila1> "just use brave bro"
2021-02-02T01:31:50 #kisslinux <dilyn> :v kek
2021-02-02T01:32:33 #kisslinux <midfavila1> i still unironically stand by the statement that pale moon is the only useable browser not developed by corporations
2021-02-02T01:32:54 #kisslinux <dilyn> we should bring back firefox 3.0
2021-02-02T01:33:01 #kisslinux <midfavila1> i mean
2021-02-02T01:33:04 #kisslinux <midfavila1> you know what
2021-02-02T01:33:07 #kisslinux <midfavila1> i would be all for that
2021-02-02T01:33:11 #kisslinux <dilyn> lol
2021-02-02T01:33:21 #kisslinux <dilyn> it would probably be unable to render like, 80% of the web
2021-02-02T01:33:43 #kisslinux <midfavila1> just take an old release of mozilla or something, update the engine to meet HTML4 and a subset of HTML5, and add a lightweight JS engine
2021-02-02T01:33:55 #kisslinux <dilyn> > lightweight
2021-02-02T01:33:58 #kisslinux <dilyn> > javascript
2021-02-02T01:34:00 #kisslinux <midfavila1> yes, I know
2021-02-02T01:34:01 #kisslinux <dilyn> shrug
2021-02-02T01:34:02 #kisslinux <midfavila1> choose one
2021-02-02T01:34:10 #kisslinux <dilyn> choose none
2021-02-02T01:34:15 #kisslinux <midfavila1> but unless you can get web devs to stop huffing fumes
2021-02-02T01:34:19 #kisslinux <midfavila1> we're stuck with JS
2021-02-02T01:34:58 #kisslinux <dilyn> ctrl+z
2021-02-02T01:35:10 #kisslinux <midfavila1> replace js with lisp
2021-02-02T01:35:11 #kisslinux <midfavila1> rn
2021-02-02T01:35:18 #kisslinux <dilyn> hrng
2021-02-02T01:35:22 #kisslinux <dilyn> is this a coniption
2021-02-02T01:35:35 #kisslinux <midfavila1> my existence is a coniption
2021-02-02T01:35:45 #kisslinux <midfavila1> every day I find another thing to grind an axe about
2021-02-02T01:35:46 #kisslinux <dilyn> f
2021-02-02T01:36:26 #kisslinux <dilyn> i only get real mad when my starbucks barista charges me 70 cents for my splash of soy milk
2021-02-02T01:36:33 #kisslinux <dilyn> makes me absolutely fucking apopleptic
2021-02-02T01:36:44 #kisslinux <dilyn> almost started crying last week i was so fucking angry
2021-02-02T01:36:53 #kisslinux <midfavila1> what a tragedy
2021-02-02T01:37:01 #kisslinux <midfavila1> time to burn the flag and kneel at football games for you
2021-02-02T01:37:15 #kisslinux <dilyn> frfr
2021-02-02T01:37:18 #kisslinux <midfavila1> your trauma will not be in vain brother
2021-02-02T01:37:24 #kisslinux <dilyn> it was at that moment i realized that i needed to destroy capitalism
2021-02-02T01:38:37 #kisslinux <midfavila1> there was a cool video I found on a bbs the other day, gonna grab the link and drop it here
2021-02-02T01:39:05 #kisslinux <midfavila1> https://invidious.snopyta.org/watch?v=8JOD1AQGqEg
2021-02-02T01:39:09 #kisslinux <midfavila1> check it
2021-02-02T02:57:44 #kisslinux <midfavila> gaaah, I've tried to package GCC 8 again and I just can't figure it out
2021-02-02T02:57:48 #kisslinux <midfavila> no idea why it's being such a bitch
2021-02-02T02:58:03 #kisslinux <midfavila> *this close* to having Web Browser be available
2021-02-02T03:07:00 #kisslinux <dilyn> what's going wrong?
2021-02-02T03:09:14 #kisslinux <midfavila> oh, I already cleared the logs and stuff from before. i'm trying to build it again
2021-02-02T03:09:26 #kisslinux <midfavila> but god knows when it's gonna be done
2021-02-02T03:14:16 #kisslinux <dilyn> lol
2021-02-02T03:14:25 #kisslinux <dilyn> well post the issue if it crops up again (:
2021-02-02T03:14:32 #kisslinux <dilyn> building older versions of gcc is unfun
2021-02-02T03:14:44 #kisslinux <midfavila> indeed
2021-02-02T03:14:55 #kisslinux <midfavila> i'm tempted to just say fuck it and slap a CRUX chroot on my workstation for compiling stuff
2021-02-02T03:25:00 #kisslinux <konimex> why gcc 8 though? java?
2021-02-02T03:25:18 #kisslinux <midfavila> Unified XUL Platform only supports GCC8
2021-02-02T03:25:34 #kisslinux <midfavila> so anything based on it, like Pale Moon or Web Browser, requires a maximum of 8
2021-02-02T03:25:57 #kisslinux <konimex> ah pale moon, of course
2021-02-02T03:26:09 #kisslinux <midfavila> i'm a gtk2 stickler so... :p
2021-02-02T03:26:15 #kisslinux <midfavila> not many browsers to choose from
2021-02-02T03:29:30 #kisslinux <midfavila> you know what actually, I'm just going to look through the git repo and see if dylan had already packaged 8.20
2021-02-02T03:30:17 #kisslinux <konimex> did the palemoon lot just refuse to use later versions of gcc because of some ideological reasons?
2021-02-02T03:30:32 #kisslinux <midfavila> no, it's a problem of the codebase they inherited from mozilla
2021-02-02T03:30:53 #kisslinux <midfavila> same reason you need like three or four languages installed just to build the damn thing
2021-02-02T03:31:00 #kisslinux <midfavila> because Mach, mozilla's build system, is a hot mess
2021-02-02T03:33:55 #kisslinux <midfavila> yeh, no dice... earliest version of GCC looks like 9.1.0
2021-02-02T03:34:04 #kisslinux <midfavila> time to spin up crux I guess
2021-02-02T03:34:11 #kisslinux <midfavila> i'm not interested in fighting with GCC... it's such a pain
2021-02-02T03:41:30 #kisslinux <midfavila> ...nnnnnever mind, it requires an ISO to install.
2021-02-02T03:41:32 #kisslinux * midfavila sighs
2021-02-02T03:46:11 #kisslinux <dilynm> Lmfao
2021-02-02T03:46:45 #kisslinux <someOneFill> hi hi
2021-02-02T03:47:16 #kisslinux <midfavila> you actually expect me to *work* to get my browser to Just Werk? smh
2021-02-02T03:47:20 #kisslinux <midfavila> it's current year
2021-02-02T03:47:41 #kisslinux <midfavila> for real though this is like my fifth attempt
2021-02-02T03:49:16 #kisslinux <sh4rm4^bnc> want a binary build of palemoon for musl platforms ?
2021-02-02T03:49:35 #kisslinux <midfavila> if you can get pale moon to compile against musl that would be pretty sick
2021-02-02T03:49:47 #kisslinux <sh4rm4^bnc> i did
2021-02-02T03:49:54 #kisslinux <midfavila> oh, nifty.
2021-02-02T03:50:21 #kisslinux <sh4rm4^bnc> i also didnt use the mach build system but the other old one
2021-02-02T03:50:42 #kisslinux <someOneFill> compile Icecast or Iceweasel-uxp
2021-02-02T03:50:42 #kisslinux <sh4rm4^bnc> recipe and patches are in sabotage repo
2021-02-02T03:51:06 #kisslinux <midfavila> normally I use Web Browser because the pale moon devs are jerks
2021-02-02T03:51:08 #kisslinux <sh4rm4^bnc> oh, but you actually use gkiss dont you
2021-02-02T03:51:17 #kisslinux <midfavila> on my desktop, but my laptop is musl
2021-02-02T04:08:16 #kisslinux <ricardog08> alguien de aquí habla español?
2021-02-02T04:10:25 #kisslinux <dilyn> hablo muy malo...
2021-02-02T04:14:23 #kisslinux <ricardog08> :o don't worry
2021-02-02T04:14:55 #kisslinux <dilyn> no... me preocupes? hm
2021-02-02T04:15:01 #kisslinux <ricardog08> i speake very bad english
2021-02-02T04:15:02 #kisslinux <dilyn> I haven't spoken spanish in close to ten years lmfao
2021-02-02T04:15:37 #kisslinux <midfavila> everyone should just speak toki pona in addition to their native tongue smh
2021-02-02T04:23:07 #kisslinux <testuser[m]_> @freenode_acheam:matrix.org Sounds good except for the name change, but don't you think it's too ambitious right now? (lot of people in the community repo seem to be inactive aswell) + self hosting would reduce the accessibility for contributors
2021-02-02T04:24:22 #kisslinux <dilyn> re accessibility: wym?
2021-02-02T04:25:16 #kisslinux <testuser[m]_> People will be less inclined to make a new account on the self hosted gitea to make PRs and stuff
2021-02-02T04:26:26 #kisslinux <dilyn> hm, tru
2021-02-02T04:36:46 #kisslinux <acheam> testuser[m]_: Regarding accesibility: Thats a very fair concern and a big seller for platforms like Sourcehut and for just using the platform that people are already on. Look at a community like Debian though, they maintain the largest centralized linux package repo, and they do it on a self-hosted Gitlab instance, which both helps them maintain everything in a centralized repository, and lets people
2021-02-02T04:36:48 #kisslinux <acheam> create new repos easier than in a GH org structure. On the other hand, orgs like Jenkins have thousands of repos and they manage just fine. I do think that GitHub goes against the kiss ideals, especially the web silence which Dylan aimed to create, and an ability to be self-reliant. Gitea does support OpenID, which is great for those who use it, and creating a new account is super simple.
2021-02-02T04:37:12 #kisslinux <acheam> There really isn't a simple answer to this issue
2021-02-02T04:38:23 #kisslinux <acheam> I continue to value self-reliance and data ownership over the convinience increase of using GitHub though, and think it would be the best way forward, despite the possibilty of it alienating casual contributors by increasing the entry barrier
2021-02-02T04:41:10 #kisslinux <acheam> A solution could be Sourcehut, or more-generally a mailing-list approach. I think this would lend itself well to KISS's small patches contribution model and would completely eliminate the sign-up hassle
2021-02-02T04:49:03 #kisslinux <acheam> Sorry, I know that got very long, but this is an important topic in my mind, and i'm interested to hear what you think
2021-02-02T04:53:32 #kisslinux <acheam> Self hosted sourcehut may be a good option in order to allow for: a) a simple patch workflow. people without an account can still contribute, b) acheiving the internet silence which Dylan yearned for, c) KISS-style independence and self-reliance, d) expandability into a really nice CI system, e) a website that can be built around the sourcehut wiki sytem. Con: The email-based workflow is a big transition
2021-02-02T05:07:54 #kisslinux <testuser[m]_> I'm fine with both gitea and sourcehut, but i lean towards gitea cuz of not having to send patches via email, We should do a poll or something for this choice
2021-02-02T05:14:35 #kisslinux <midfavila> i'm fine with both personally, but a poll sounds good
2021-02-02T05:14:48 #kisslinux <acheam> I think an email workflow would be beneficial to the project. lots of simple 2 line patches for version bumps that are easily done over email, and its the KISS way of doing things
2021-02-02T05:14:59 #kisslinux * midfavila nods
2021-02-02T05:15:03 #kisslinux <acheam> how would a poll even be distributed?
2021-02-02T05:15:06 #kisslinux <midfavila> plus it removes the need for a browser from the development process
2021-02-02T05:15:12 #kisslinux <acheam> ^
2021-02-02T05:15:22 #kisslinux <midfavila> and I mean, iunno, just make a poll on strawpoll or something and dump it in here every hour for 24 hours
2021-02-02T05:15:40 #kisslinux <midfavila> spammy sure, but it's the only real way without op privs
2021-02-02T05:15:50 #kisslinux <acheam> I'll do it closer to march 30
2021-02-02T05:15:54 #kisslinux <midfavila> fair
2021-02-02T05:16:08 #kisslinux <midfavila> also, side note, how much do replacement batteries for your guys' laptops normally cost?
2021-02-02T05:16:20 #kisslinux <midfavila> i'm trying to debate whether or not I should buy a long-life battery for my machine
2021-02-02T05:16:25 #kisslinux <acheam> or if we get the domain on the 14th, then maybe we could move up the march 30 date
2021-02-02T05:16:42 #kisslinux <midfavila> well, if we get the domain, then everything should shift into gear
2021-02-02T05:17:28 #kisslinux <acheam> right, although setting up really solid infra before a big switch will take a bit of time
2021-02-02T05:18:05 #kisslinux <midfavila> well, no rush
2021-02-02T05:18:11 #kisslinux <midfavila> we've got a month or two
2021-02-02T05:19:09 #kisslinux <acheam> now that doesn't mean we can't start this BSD port now....
2021-02-02T05:19:55 #kisslinux <dilyn> claudia: can head up that project :v
2021-02-02T05:20:03 #kisslinux <acheam> what os would make a good base? I think obsd or netbsd.
2021-02-02T05:20:30 #kisslinux <midfavila> i only have experience with net and dragonfly
2021-02-02T05:20:31 #kisslinux <acheam> netbsd would be great for portability, but obsd is maybe a bit more inline with KISS values
2021-02-02T05:20:48 #kisslinux <midfavila> well
2021-02-02T05:20:51 #kisslinux <midfavila> if kiss is posix...
2021-02-02T05:20:57 #kisslinux <midfavila> could we just like...
2021-02-02T05:20:59 #kisslinux <midfavila> do all of them?
2021-02-02T05:21:11 #kisslinux <acheam> dragonfly is out in my mind because it only supports x86-64
2021-02-02T05:21:11 #kisslinux <midfavila> i can't run a BSD machine rn but I have enough horsepower to compile stuff for days
2021-02-02T05:21:39 #kisslinux <midfavila> i suppose that that's fair
2021-02-02T05:21:48 #kisslinux <acheam> I think rock solid integration into the OS should be our priority's, so maybe start with just one
2021-02-02T05:21:55 #kisslinux <midfavila> well, obvs
2021-02-02T05:25:14 #kisslinux <midfavila> man, I get nervous every time I power up my workstation, haha
2021-02-02T05:25:24 #kisslinux <midfavila> lights flicker for a split second
2021-02-02T05:28:54 #kisslinux <dilyn> bruh
2021-02-02T05:29:09 #kisslinux <dilyn> it's too powerful
2021-02-02T05:29:13 #kisslinux <midfavila> i mean
2021-02-02T05:29:17 #kisslinux <midfavila> 24c48t
2021-02-02T05:29:38 #kisslinux <midfavila> clocked at like 3.1ghz iirc
2021-02-02T05:29:50 #kisslinux <midfavila> so yeah, it's pretty overkill for what I normally do :v
2021-02-02T05:30:02 #kisslinux <midfavila> but Xeon machines are cheap right now
2021-02-02T05:30:07 #kisslinux <dilyn> jesus
2021-02-02T05:30:09 #kisslinux <dilyn> too much
2021-02-02T05:30:17 #kisslinux <dilyn> just thinking about nproc is making me pass out
2021-02-02T05:30:23 #kisslinux <midfavila> i also picked up a WX5100 for cheap
2021-02-02T05:30:30 #kisslinux <midfavila> which is the first "high end" card I've ever had
2021-02-02T05:30:42 #kisslinux <midfavila> it's the product of a year and a half's worth of work uwu
2021-02-02T05:30:47 #kisslinux <midfavila> my baby
2021-02-02T05:31:24 #kisslinux <dilyn> uwu
2021-02-02T05:31:31 #kisslinux <dilyn> I need to build a proper rig again
2021-02-02T05:31:34 #kisslinux <midfavila> uwuwuwuwuwuwuwuuwuwuwuwuwuwuwuwuwuwuwuwuwwuwuwu
2021-02-02T05:31:37 #kisslinux <midfavila> yes, yes you do
2021-02-02T05:31:38 #kisslinux <dilyn> I miss fiddling with hardware. take me back to 2010
2021-02-02T05:31:47 #kisslinux <midfavila> >not 2008
2021-02-02T05:31:51 #kisslinux <midfavila> gtfo
2021-02-02T05:32:15 #kisslinux <midfavila> welp time to trial-by-fire my packages
2021-02-02T05:32:25 #kisslinux <dilyn> lmao
2021-02-02T05:32:28 #kisslinux <dilyn> 2008 was garbo
2021-02-02T05:32:56 #kisslinux <midfavila> idk man little eight-year old me was pretty into it
2021-02-02T05:33:00 #kisslinux <dilyn> i was running an emachines with integrated graphics and a shitty e5200 or w/e trying to play civ 4
2021-02-02T05:33:01 #kisslinux <dilyn> did not work
2021-02-02T05:33:02 #kisslinux <midfavila> newgrounds was the shit
2021-02-02T05:33:25 #kisslinux <midfavila> fuckn
2021-02-02T05:33:25 #kisslinux <midfavila> windows xp with litestep
2021-02-02T05:33:27 #kisslinux <dilyn> triggered
2021-02-02T05:33:33 #kisslinux <dilyn> :'(
2021-02-02T05:33:36 #kisslinux <dilyn> rip miniclip
2021-02-02T05:33:37 #kisslinux <midfavila> right sorry
2021-02-02T05:33:43 #kisslinux <midfavila> were you a gaia online guy
2021-02-02T05:34:17 #kisslinux <dilyn> runescape baybeeeeeeeeeeee
2021-02-02T05:34:28 #kisslinux <midfavila> i played runescape for like a week
2021-02-02T05:34:34 #kisslinux <midfavila> and then I decided I wanted to be an archer
2021-02-02T05:34:43 #kisslinux <midfavila> (this was right after they implemented the tutorial quest)
2021-02-02T05:34:56 #kisslinux <dilyn> lol
2021-02-02T05:35:03 #kisslinux <dilyn> i played that game for forever
2021-02-02T05:35:04 #kisslinux <midfavila> anyways I tried to travel to the nearest town with archery stuff
2021-02-02T05:35:12 #kisslinux <midfavila> and had to travel through this mountain area
2021-02-02T05:35:31 #kisslinux <midfavila> talked to these two barbarian NPCs that were like thirty levels higher than I was and then they aggroed and wrecked my shit
2021-02-02T05:35:39 #kisslinux <midfavila> i promptly lost all my stuff and quit playing the game forever
2021-02-02T05:37:39 #kisslinux <midfavila> oh
2021-02-02T05:37:39 #kisslinux <midfavila> idea
2021-02-02T05:37:49 #kisslinux <midfavila> one thing we should work on adding to kiss is a "provides" file
2021-02-02T05:38:01 #kisslinux <dilyn> no
2021-02-02T05:38:05 #kisslinux <dilyn> #veto
2021-02-02T05:38:12 #kisslinux <midfavila> why not?
2021-02-02T05:38:18 #kisslinux <dilyn> why would we need it
2021-02-02T05:38:41 #kisslinux <midfavila> well, there are some programs that can build with multiple different forks of a lib
2021-02-02T05:39:08 #kisslinux <midfavila> common example could be open vs libressl or the various Xaw implementations, but also build tools like patch
2021-02-02T05:39:08 #kisslinux <midfavila> idk
2021-02-02T05:39:24 #kisslinux <midfavila> it's just something I've found myself thinking would be useful. maybe I'll try writing an external script
2021-02-02T05:39:24 #kisslinux <dilyn> i feel like what a package provides is almost self-evident
2021-02-02T05:39:37 #kisslinux * midfavila shrugs
2021-02-02T05:39:42 #kisslinux <dilyn> it's more opaque with things like busybox/coreutils/etc but like, findutils/pciutils/patch/nawk are pretty self evident
2021-02-02T05:39:54 #kisslinux <dilyn> external script > buitlin
2021-02-02T05:40:01 #kisslinux <dilyn> s/buitlin/builtin
2021-02-02T05:40:02 #kisslinux <kissbot> <dilyn> external script > builtin
2021-02-02T05:40:36 #kisslinux <midfavila> wow was my suggestion that repulsive? :v
2021-02-02T05:41:47 #kisslinux <acheam> I second the provides
2021-02-02T05:42:09 #kisslinux <midfavila> could probably do something with the alternatives system
2021-02-02T05:42:20 #kisslinux <midfavila> it's already kind of a "provides" functionality
2021-02-02T05:43:32 #kisslinux <midfavila> hmm...
2021-02-02T05:44:22 #kisslinux <dilyn> it's not gross it just seems useless xD
2021-02-02T05:44:32 #kisslinux <midfavila> well, it's a safety net, so yeah
2021-02-02T05:44:34 #kisslinux <dilyn> i mean we basically just package the manifest with the pkg
2021-02-02T05:44:45 #kisslinux <midfavila> point is
2021-02-02T05:45:26 #kisslinux <midfavila> if I have a program that requires *some sort of implementation of X*, but there are multiple, it's nice to be able to say "just have something that has X" than to shove a specific package into the depends folder
2021-02-02T05:45:29 #kisslinux <konimex> might want to revisit this one since we're talking provides: https://github.com/kisslinux/kiss/issues/163
2021-02-02T05:45:37 #kisslinux <midfavila> or, compared to what I've been doing, just not putting that dependency in
2021-02-02T05:48:23 #kisslinux <midfavila> idk maybe I'm just not bigged brained enough to understand the true genius of kiss or something :v
2021-02-02T05:49:01 #kisslinux <midfavila> still haven't totally adjusted to the idea of using the file system as part of the package manager
2021-02-02T05:49:08 #kisslinux <dilyn> lmao
2021-02-02T05:49:41 #kisslinux <dilyn> i mean
2021-02-02T05:49:56 #kisslinux <dilyn> id be more amicable towards just packaging the manifest or some manipulation of it
2021-02-02T05:50:00 #kisslinux <dilyn> that could be useful, maybe
2021-02-02T05:50:11 #kisslinux <midfavila> that's sort of what I'm thinking
2021-02-02T05:50:23 #kisslinux <midfavila> this is a (very rough) general idea
2021-02-02T05:50:38 #kisslinux <testuser[m]_> so what package manager would this hypothetical kiss bsd use
2021-02-02T05:50:45 #kisslinux <midfavila> :thinking:
2021-02-02T05:51:00 #kisslinux <midfavila> considering at its core kiss is nothing more than a package manager...
2021-02-02T05:51:11 #kisslinux <konimex> <testuser[m]_ "so what package manager would th"> uh... the kiss package manager?
2021-02-02T05:51:51 #kisslinux <midfavila> all we'd be doing is steal^H^H^H^H^Hborrowing the whateverBSD kernel and maybe userspace
2021-02-02T05:52:00 #kisslinux <testuser[m]_> hmm
2021-02-02T05:52:17 #kisslinux <midfavila> and then just repacking the base utils of the current KISS release with that new kernel
2021-02-02T05:52:18 #kisslinux <dilyn> i mean you're basically implementing $minimalist $ports2.0
2021-02-02T05:52:39 #kisslinux * midfavila shrugs
2021-02-02T05:53:16 #kisslinux <midfavila> i do think it'll be interesting though. to see if we can decouple the BSD coreutils and the BSD kernels, that is
2021-02-02T05:53:28 #kisslinux <midfavila> afaik that's not really A Thing:tm: that people do
2021-02-02T05:53:32 #kisslinux <dilyn> for sure
2021-02-02T05:53:50 #kisslinux <acheam> that ruins a lot of the point
2021-02-02T05:54:02 #kisslinux <midfavila> well, I don't think so
2021-02-02T05:54:05 #kisslinux <acheam> theyre supposed to be a unified package
2021-02-02T05:54:39 #kisslinux <acheam> it's a single, complete Unix system as opposed to a collection of packages on top of a kernel
2021-02-02T05:54:39 #kisslinux <midfavila> nothing saying the user can't install whatever userland they want post-setup
2021-02-02T05:54:59 #kisslinux <midfavila> idk I'm ignorant in the ways of the BSD crowd
2021-02-02T05:55:30 #kisslinux <acheam> and people do install bash, the gnu coreutils, etc, but why? it'd be like installing portage on KISS linux
2021-02-02T05:56:04 #kisslinux <midfavila> well, for me, I just prefer the suckless utils for example
2021-02-02T05:56:27 #kisslinux <midfavila> if I want to use suckless' tools with a BSD kernel, short of the compiler flipping out, I think I should be able to
2021-02-02T05:56:45 #kisslinux * midfavila shrugs
2021-02-02T05:57:02 #kisslinux <acheam> nothing stopping you from doing that, it'd just be not in the spirit of it IMO
2021-02-02T05:57:32 #kisslinux <midfavila> well, we're working in the spirit of KISS, right? not BSD. primarily, anyway
2021-02-02T05:57:43 #kisslinux <dilyn> yeah but if we dont' try to hamfist and ramrod our garbage into other peoples garbage are we even neckbeards bro
2021-02-02T05:58:00 #kisslinux <midfavila> actually
2021-02-02T05:58:20 #kisslinux <midfavila> what you're referring to as neckbeard is GNU/Neckbeard, or as I've recently taken to calling it, GNU+Neckbeard
2021-02-02T05:59:29 #kisslinux <dilyn> f u c k
2021-02-02T05:59:38 #kisslinux <midfavila> you can't escape gahnoo
2021-02-02T05:59:39 #kisslinux <dilyn> sudo rm copypasta
2021-02-02T05:59:44 #kisslinux <midfavila> that neckbeard was compiled with gcc
2021-02-02T05:59:53 #kisslinux <midfavila> and extended with guile
2021-02-02T06:00:01 #kisslinux <midfavila> okay fr though guile is cool
2021-02-02T06:01:31 #kisslinux <midfavila> librsvg is such a pain
2021-02-02T06:50:22 #kisslinux <midfavila> looking at some new parts for my setup, i love how it's cheaper for me to order stuff from europe than the US even though I'm canadian
2021-02-02T06:50:27 #kisslinux <midfavila> because fuck geography
2021-02-02T07:20:46 #kisslinux <midfavila> just ran into some odd behavior... the implementation of bc I use won't build with my usual userspace because the autogenerated makefile doesn't properly indent itself.
2021-02-02T07:21:00 #kisslinux <midfavila> time to blame suckless I guess
2021-02-02T10:34:52 #kisslinux <tracer^afk> Good morning
2021-02-02T10:36:09 #kisslinux <testuser[m]_> hello
2021-02-02T10:36:15 #kisslinux <tracer> Hi testuser[m]_
2021-02-02T10:37:29 #kisslinux <tracer> I glimpsed through the chat from last night, you guys look for a place to host KISS?
2021-02-02T12:32:28 #kisslinux <sad_plan> tracer: I belive acheam made a gitea earlier, but there will a poll later down the line, wether we will be selfhosting, or keeping it on a centralizer place like github. but if you got any suggestions, shot.
2021-02-02T12:33:25 #kisslinux <tracer> You can use mine, if you like: https://git.24unix.net
2021-02-02T12:34:32 #kisslinux <tracer> But, if you take over the k1ss domain, I can host a gitea for you under that domain. Everything is better than to be dependend on a gib company. And, don't forget: GH is pwned by MS.
2021-02-02T12:35:12 #kisslinux <tracer> Sorry for flooding the cannel with those login stuff, I'm working on my fibre, forgot to leace IRC.
2021-02-02T12:35:46 #kisslinux <kiedtl> tracer: depending on sr.ht isn't so bad
2021-02-02T12:35:47 #kisslinux <kiedtl> ¯_(ツ)_/¯
2021-02-02T12:36:00 #kisslinux <sad_plan> we know, but github/gitlab, is where most people already are. there are pros and cons with both things, and I belive thats what we're trying to figure out, what exacly do the people want to use.
2021-02-02T12:36:18 #kisslinux <kiedtl> Yeah, network effects :V
2021-02-02T12:36:25 #kisslinux <sad_plan> ^
2021-02-02T12:36:35 #kisslinux <tracer> kiedtl: sorry, I'm no native speaker, besides I'm old, what does sr.ht mean?
2021-02-02T12:36:36 #kisslinux <kiedtl> and to think that git is the most decentralized tool there is
2021-02-02T12:36:49 #kisslinux <kiedtl> tracer: sourcehut, https://git.sr.ht/
2021-02-02T12:37:01 #kisslinux <kiedtl> it's the website address ;)
2021-02-02T12:37:28 #kisslinux <tracer> sad_plan: yes, network effect, I understand. I'd love GH, if it would be free like WP, but it isn't, it's pwned by the company I hate most.
2021-02-02T12:37:55 #kisslinux <sad_plan> Im not saying selfhosting is a bad thing at all, Im just saying that its not what everyone prefers, and that may or may not 'cause some displeasing with some people.
2021-02-02T12:38:04 #kisslinux <kiedtl> sourcehut is the brainchild of the, you know, the Crazy Wayland Guy
2021-02-02T12:38:10 #kisslinux <sad_plan> how about gitlab then? just to throw that out there aswell.
2021-02-02T12:38:13 #kisslinux <sad_plan> I didnt know
2021-02-02T12:38:42 #kisslinux <kiedtl> dunno, I find the gitlab UI rather confuzzling
2021-02-02T12:38:48 #kisslinux <kiedtl> but maybe that's just me
2021-02-02T12:39:01 #kisslinux <kiedtl> guess I just need to get used to it, I guess.
2021-02-02T12:39:37 #kisslinux <sad_plan> ditto. I like gh better that way, but depending on M$ isnt really great anyway
2021-02-02T12:40:49 #kisslinux <tracer> Following that sr.ht gives me a Safari stating that I'm not connected to the Internet. But I have my doubts about that.
2021-02-02T12:41:18 #kisslinux <kiedtl> try sourcehut.org... hmmm
2021-02-02T12:41:44 #kisslinux <tracer> that works, thx
2021-02-02T12:43:56 #kisslinux <tracer> However, just an offer: if you want to selfhost, I can donate webspace and a gitea service under every domain you wish. Not at home, it's a very good DC in Germany, maybe the best. https://www.hetzner.com/de/
2021-02-02T12:44:50 #kisslinux <tracer> I'd just be happy over every project becoming independent of MS.
2021-02-02T12:45:00 #kisslinux <sad_plan> ^
2021-02-02T13:13:09 #kisslinux <aarng> I'd say for KISS's target audience, simply staying at github is best for now
2021-02-02T13:14:36 #kisslinux <aarng> personally, I think mailing lists and patches is the best development model but I'm also lazy and would have to setup a mail client for that
2021-02-02T13:14:52 #kisslinux <aarng> so keeping things as they are wins for me
2021-02-02T13:40:15 #kisslinux <travankor> lazy is the best development model
2021-02-02T13:46:08 #kisslinux <sh4rm4^bnc> as sad as it is that github is in the hands of M$, it's a huge platform and if you want to be seen you gotta be there
2021-02-02T13:46:44 #kisslinux <sh4rm4^bnc> even if it's just a mirror
2021-02-02T13:47:02 #kisslinux <sh4rm4^bnc> but even then people tend to open issues/PRs there as they already have an account
2021-02-02T13:48:54 #kisslinux <tracer> We don't use Windows, because MS suxx, and then we use GH because we don't care?
2021-02-02T13:50:21 #kisslinux <dilyn> they're presumably very different teams at basically every level
2021-02-02T13:50:31 #kisslinux <dilyn> what evil things are microsoft doing with github?
2021-02-02T13:50:34 #kisslinux <tracer> Git hosting is as easy, or even more easy than mail hosting, we don't need no big, bad companies for that.
2021-02-02T13:50:37 #kisslinux <sh4rm4^bnc> i think we don't use windows because windows sucks, or because we don't want to give our $$ to them
2021-02-02T13:50:59 #kisslinux <dilyn> tru & tru
2021-02-02T13:51:34 #kisslinux <tracer> $$ are a bad argument, I've got a VM with W10 Pro, it was below 10$ on eBay :-)
2021-02-02T13:52:16 #kisslinux <sh4rm4^bnc> i really tried hard to get a laptop without windows pre-installed but it was impossible to find a decent one :(
2021-02-02T13:52:20 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> Dylan didn't seem to have an issue with using github, at least not that I'm aware of?
2021-02-02T13:53:00 #kisslinux <dilyn> he didn't seem concerned
2021-02-02T13:53:28 #kisslinux <tracer> dilyn: I don't know an evil thing they do now.But I remember evil things they did in the past (I'm 50yo). Wo guantees that GH, NPM and so on won't need a MS365 a in the next year?
2021-02-02T13:54:51 #kisslinux <tracer> sh4rm4^bnc: where do you live? In Germany is a company which offers really nice Linux-Notebooks.
2021-02-02T13:55:24 #kisslinux <dilyn> god wouldn't that suck
2021-02-02T13:55:47 #kisslinux <tracer> dilyn: Do you think it's impossible?
2021-02-02T13:55:59 #kisslinux <sh4rm4^bnc> i spent like 2 weeks looking aroud, but i've had a couple must-have items on my list that none of the non-bundled ones could satisfy
2021-02-02T13:56:21 #kisslinux <sh4rm4^bnc> for example intel graphics so i dont have to fight with nouveau/radeon drivers
2021-02-02T13:56:33 #kisslinux <tracer> https://www.tuxedocomputers.com
2021-02-02T13:56:45 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> @tracer i don't think it is impossible, but i also don't think it is likely to happen
2021-02-02T13:56:46 #kisslinux <aarng> I don't use windows because unix rocks, not because MS sucks
2021-02-02T13:56:48 #kisslinux <tracer> I didn't check where they ship, though.
2021-02-02T13:57:14 #kisslinux <tracer> ominous_anonymou: May the gods trust your ears.
2021-02-02T14:00:36 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> how is git.k1ss.org hosted?  is that through github as well?
2021-02-02T14:01:49 #kisslinux <sh4rm4^bnc> hurr, tuxedo laptop with same config than mine is 300€ more expensive
2021-02-02T14:01:53 #kisslinux <travankor> ditch github, and do everything suckless style except make the repos available only on gemini addresses to get more hacker cred :P
2021-02-02T14:02:37 #kisslinux <tracer> tracer@tomcat  ~  host git.k1ss.org
2021-02-02T14:02:37 #kisslinux <tracer> git.k1ss.org has address 140.82.32.205
2021-02-02T14:02:37 #kisslinux <tracer>  tracer@tomcat  ~  host  140.82.32.205
2021-02-02T14:02:39 #kisslinux <tracer> 205.32.82.140.in-addr.arpa domain name pointer 140.82.32.205.vultr.com.
2021-02-02T14:03:48 #kisslinux <tracer> sh4rm4^bnc: yes, but it's get preinstalled with Linux, and you get support. But, it was just an info. I'm just a Mac guy who loves to play with Linux.
2021-02-02T14:04:28 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> so its a vultr VPS that hosts the kiss git mirror?  do i read that right?
2021-02-02T14:07:43 #kisslinux <tracer> I guess you are right, ominous_anonymou
2021-02-02T14:09:52 #kisslinux <tracer> But, Dylan made everything portable, incl. the website, wiki and stuff. So, the is an option. I could donate the KISS project a vServer with GB line. Everybody capable woul dhabe full admin right.
2021-02-02T14:10:50 #kisslinux <tracer> Sorry for my bad typing, I think faster than I can type, an my English is not the best.
2021-02-02T14:13:14 #kisslinux <tracer> So, to make it clear, someone whom I trust (for now dilyn is preferred) get a vServer, in dead a Xen DomU, and has all options he need to work with it.
2021-02-02T14:15:58 #kisslinux <tracer> I have some ideas (be it KISS-lite =>musl and busybox, KISS desktop => systemdD, glibc) well the server I'd just leave for Deabian :)
2021-02-02T14:38:00 #kisslinux <dilyn> awwww i appreciate your trust
2021-02-02T14:57:08 #kisslinux <acheam> Thanks tracer. Assuming that Dylan doesn't come back, and the poll leans in favor of self-hosting, then we can distribute it between my hardware, yours, and maybe nerditup's. I do have a gitea instance at kiss.armaanb.net right now, but i'm leaning towards sourcehut being a better solution for the project in the long term. builds.sr.ht is preferably hosted on bare metal, which I can do. Alternatively, if
2021-02-02T14:57:10 #kisslinux <acheam> the poll comes back in favor of a centralized platform but against Github, I would reccomend the hosted version of sourcehut, given that we get a medium to high tier paid plan to offset the costs of a large project using it. Sourcehut if for sure the closest solution to what I understand from Dylan's ideals
2021-02-02T14:58:51 #kisslinux <claudia02> aloha
2021-02-02T14:59:25 #kisslinux <testuser[m]_> hello
2021-02-02T14:59:33 #kisslinux <acheam> Hi claudia02
2021-02-02T15:00:01 #kisslinux <claudia02> I just want to randomly throw in a dylan quote which sticks to my mind: "I say "no" a lot" https://freenode.logbot.info/kisslinux/20200305#c3355447
2021-02-02T15:14:47 #kisslinux <dilyn> 'no' is one of the most important words in the english language!
2021-02-02T15:22:32 #kisslinux <kiedtl> *the
2021-02-02T17:06:38 #kisslinux <acheam> So can we come to a conclusion as to what userland to use with the BSD port? I vote using the native userland instead of replacing it.
2021-02-02T17:07:15 #kisslinux <acheam> This would essenitally make KISS a new, simpler ports tree
2021-02-02T17:10:51 #kisslinux <konimex> the real question is where is the poll
2021-02-02T17:12:00 #kisslinux <dilyn> i don't see a good reason to not use BSD userland
2021-02-02T17:12:23 #kisslinux <dilyn> the point of kiss was POSIX and a lot of work went into things like tar and checksum implementations so there should be minimal effort to conform to bsd userland tools
2021-02-02T17:12:52 #kisslinux <testuser[m]_> What BSD is it gonna be based on ?
2021-02-02T17:13:08 #kisslinux <acheam> testuser[m]_:  that depends on the outcome of this question
2021-02-02T17:13:38 #kisslinux <acheam> I agree, dilyn
2021-02-02T17:15:34 #kisslinux <acheam> konimex:  you mean for this question? I think this is better as a discussion than just a pure choose one of five options
2021-02-02T17:16:33 #kisslinux <konimex> acheam: the poll for the "self-hosting" vs "centralized" git repo
2021-02-02T17:17:04 #kisslinux <acheam> konimex:  i'm going to wait on that until either: We get the domain on Feb 14, or March 30
2021-02-02T17:17:16 #kisslinux <konimex> got it
2021-02-02T17:18:22 #kisslinux <konimex> what *if* dylan comes back after those dates? are you guys going to give the domain control, etc. etc. to him?
2021-02-02T17:18:40 #kisslinux <acheam> I would
2021-02-02T17:18:52 #kisslinux <acheam> it'd be kind of mean to just shut him out
2021-02-02T17:19:01 #kisslinux <konimex> because as it stands it's a Void-like situation
2021-02-02T17:19:20 #kisslinux <acheam> Its not void-like because the xtraeme was hostile
2021-02-02T17:19:38 #kisslinux <acheam> Dylan isnt
2021-02-02T17:19:47 #kisslinux <konimex> xtraeme was hostile, or other devs was hostile to him
2021-02-02T17:19:56 #kisslinux <konimex> depends on the viewpoint
2021-02-02T17:20:05 #kisslinux <acheam> All im saying is void was a very different situation
2021-02-02T17:20:19 #kisslinux <acheam> There was still hostility that there isn't here
2021-02-02T17:20:27 #kisslinux <acheam> From any direction
2021-02-02T17:20:28 #kisslinux <konimex> got it
2021-02-02T17:21:11 #kisslinux <acheam> If Dylan comes back and doesn't like the direction we've taken the project, or we've come to really like our org structure, then maybe a fork is in order.
2021-02-02T17:21:48 #kisslinux <acheam> But i'd be happy to give him back anything we may have claimed that used to be his like the domain, freenode channel, etc
2021-02-02T17:22:53 #kisslinux <konimex> the other concern is obviously the direction of the project, just a few secs ago you talk about kiss on BSD (which, while in line with Unix/POSIX philosophy, I don't think dylan wants to do it for the same reason dylan (probably) wants to have and support only 1 compiler on his system, and practical concerns like hardware compatibility)
2021-02-02T17:24:56 #kisslinux <acheam> KISS on BSD would be a fork/port. No modifications to the mainline KISS sourcecode would be made to adapt to BSD
2021-02-02T17:25:46 #kisslinux <acheam> This is the advantage of a team-based workflow, the project can branch out more while still maintining core functionality
2021-02-02T17:28:14 #kisslinux <dilyn> konimex: is right about the bsd idea, it definitely shouldn't be 'mainline'; we'd mostly just be checking to ensure that nothing kiss does won't work on *bsd
2021-02-02T17:28:30 #kisslinux <acheam> Right
2021-02-02T17:28:30 #kisslinux <dilyn> hence my suggestion last night that somebody who's switching to a bsd try to manage that
2021-02-02T17:29:08 #kisslinux <dilyn> but re: dylan returning, I would be deeply offended if we DIDN'T give dylan the domain back. My only desire for getting the domain is continuity and ensuring nothing nefarious happens to it (squatters etc)
2021-02-02T17:29:49 #kisslinux <dilyn> 100% intending to give dylan back his IP and work; dylan wouldn't mind is doing what we're doing, and in fact would probably encourage it. his plan was always that the community would do whatever they wanted, right?
2021-02-02T17:30:11 #kisslinux <konimex> well as for what userland the hypothetical KISSonBSD obviously it should be native userland, otherwise we're just replicating Debian GNU/BSD, but should it be managed by the package manager or it'll be a separate thing?
2021-02-02T17:30:38 #kisslinux <konimex> by it i meant the userland
2021-02-02T17:31:16 #kisslinux <acheam> I think easiest would be to manage userland / kernel with the system package manager, and only manage external packages with KISS
2021-02-02T17:31:19 #kisslinux <dilyn> what do you mean managed? like, will it be a kiss package?
2021-02-02T17:31:38 #kisslinux <dilyn> how does BSD currently maintain their userland?
2021-02-02T17:32:03 #kisslinux <dilyn> I should really try out o/free BSD
2021-02-02T17:32:43 #kisslinux <konimex> dilyn: if possible (and someone is nuts enough to do that), the entire userland stack (libc, usr/bin, kernel, and whatnot) would be a kiss package
2021-02-02T17:32:54 #kisslinux <dilyn> i like that idea
2021-02-02T17:33:07 #kisslinux <dilyn> i feel like the point of 'kiss on BSD' is to usurp their entire packaging system and replace it
2021-02-02T17:33:20 #kisslinux <acheam> Dylan didn't want the kernel to be managed by KISS though
2021-02-02T17:33:29 #kisslinux <dilyn> I just don't know how feasible it is; the entire enterprise seems silly if kiss is actually just ports 2.0
2021-02-02T17:33:31 #kisslinux <acheam> And when porting to BSD, by extension, that is the userland
2021-02-02T17:33:37 #kisslinux <dilyn> yeah
2021-02-02T17:33:45 #kisslinux <acheam> Ports 2.0 is what i'm suggesting
2021-02-02T17:33:54 #kisslinux <dilyn> dylan didn't want to maintain a kernel package, more specifically. he didn't care how users did it
2021-02-02T17:34:13 #kisslinux <dilyn> the question would then become, how hard would it be to maintain such a package?
2021-02-02T17:35:03 #kisslinux <dilyn> if it's nie impossible, probably just ports then. but if bsd is so monolithic that there's very little variability in how it exists on any given BSD system, it's far more possible
2021-02-02T17:35:20 #kisslinux <konimex> how is the kernel built on BSD anyway, dylan doesn't want to deal with the headache that is different kernel modules for different devices on Linux
2021-02-02T17:36:04 #kisslinux <dilyn> ^
2021-02-02T17:36:06 #kisslinux <dilyn> exactly
2021-02-02T17:38:07 #kisslinux <acheam> For netbsd: You can build a generic kernel, and there are also loadable kernel modules. There is a config file to add/remove features
2021-02-02T17:38:24 #kisslinux <acheam> So pretty similar to Linux in that sense
2021-02-02T17:38:39 #kisslinux <testuser[m]_> https://docs.freebsd.org/en/books/handbook/kernelconfig-building.html
2021-02-02T17:39:42 #kisslinux <acheam> If we're thinking about managing the kernel we need to choose a specific BSD variant
2021-02-02T17:40:44 #kisslinux <acheam> And that leads to the question as to whether we choose to manage the kernel/userland based on how easy it is on the chosen BSD or do we choose the BSD based on how easy it is to manage the kernel/userland with KISS
2021-02-02T17:41:14 #kisslinux <konimex> whatever the outcome i just hope the future KISSonBSD won't go the way of Hyperbola (locking the changes behind GPLv3)
2021-02-02T17:42:02 #kisslinux <acheam> I agree, it feels scummy to add restrictively licensed code to a permissively licensed project
2021-02-02T17:49:37 #kisslinux <dilyn> #alwaysMIT
2021-02-02T17:50:00 #kisslinux <acheam> We should probably use a BSD or ISC license
2021-02-02T17:50:12 #kisslinux <acheam> same terms as MIT pretty much, just matching the rest of the system
2021-02-02T17:50:24 #kisslinux <dilyn> for sure
2021-02-02T17:53:03 #kisslinux <testuser[m]_> So the plan is to use the KISS package manager or make a minimal ports collection?
2021-02-02T17:55:53 #kisslinux <acheam> testuser[m]_:  we're figuring that out
2021-02-02T17:56:05 #kisslinux <acheam> i think we could start with just a ports tree
2021-02-02T17:56:31 #kisslinux <acheam> It could inherit lots of packages from the community repo
2021-02-02T18:41:51 #kisslinux <ricardog08> hi dylan, have you considered adding some information about the license of the packages distributed in the repositories
2021-02-02T18:43:03 #kisslinux <kiedtl> ricardog08: Dylan has been absent since last November.
2021-02-02T18:43:39 #kisslinux <kiedtl> Consider filing an issue on the new repo's issue tracker, and Dylan might look at it if he ever comes back.
2021-02-02T18:44:00 #kisslinux <aarng> dylan was pretty much against adding more meta data to packages
2021-02-02T18:44:16 #kisslinux <ricardog08> hooo i thought dilyn was dylan
2021-02-02T18:44:26 #kisslinux <kiedtl> Ah.
2021-02-02T18:44:41 #kisslinux <aarng> that includes "provides", a description etc.
2021-02-02T18:44:53 #kisslinux <kiedtl> Did he give a reason, aarng?
2021-02-02T18:45:21 #kisslinux <aarng> not really, just that it's not needed (which I agree with)
2021-02-02T18:45:42 #kisslinux <kiedtl> I see.
2021-02-02T18:45:58 #kisslinux <ricardog08> only licence is necesary, for communicate it's free or private software
2021-02-02T18:50:02 #kisslinux <dilyn> wyvertux implements what you're asking for!
2021-02-02T18:50:10 #kisslinux <dilyn> although it's very different from KISS, but based on it
2021-02-02T18:50:29 #kisslinux <konimex> <ricardog08 "hi dylan, have you considered ad"> yeah, in the past KISS *did* include licenses
2021-02-02T18:50:42 #kisslinux <konimex> dylan removed it though
2021-02-02T18:51:52 #kisslinux <dilyn> you could also accomplish it through a hook
2021-02-02T18:52:13 #kisslinux <konimex> well, every single software that enters kiss repos must be FOSS though so there's no such thing as "private software"
2021-02-02T18:54:48 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> https://k1ss.org/guidestones "All software in the repositories must be F(L)OSS. See above point if proprietary software is needed."
2021-02-02T19:42:55 #kisslinux <acheam> "There must always be a sole commander-in-chief in charge of the distribution. There must never be a below governance structure."
2021-02-02T19:43:35 #kisslinux <dilyn> ¯_(ツ)_/¯
2021-02-02T19:43:56 #kisslinux <dilyn> who wants to be BDFL!
2021-02-02T19:44:17 #kisslinux <acheam> Well, first lets talk about this
2021-02-02T19:44:21 #kisslinux <dilyn> lol
2021-02-02T19:44:33 #kisslinux <acheam> I think we should ignore it.
2021-02-02T19:44:54 #kisslinux <acheam> At least in the short term
2021-02-02T19:45:36 #kisslinux <acheam> Run it by committee for now (as we are) until some secondary due date where we can hold a reffernendum as for what to do next
2021-02-02T19:45:59 #kisslinux <acheam> Maybe Mar 30 we should also take a vote on BDFL or not, and if so, who
2021-02-02T19:50:17 #kisslinux <dilyn> seems fine
2021-02-02T20:16:21 #kisslinux <midfavila> we can't really forget the "for life" part of BDFL...
2021-02-02T20:16:43 #kisslinux <midfavila> short of dylan having been taken out by the Red Hat ninjas or something I don't think we can really replace him
2021-02-02T20:17:02 #kisslinux <dilyn> idk mate
2021-02-02T20:17:07 #kisslinux <dilyn> coups seem pretty common nowadays
2021-02-02T20:17:17 #kisslinux * midfavila shrugs
2021-02-02T20:24:38 #kisslinux <acheam> isn't the "for life" part faceitious?
2021-02-02T20:40:06 #kisslinux <acheam> Also, i'd argue that as a BDFL you also have an obligation not to just pick up and leave without notice, and doing so (for reasons in your control or not) leaves you vulnerable for a coup.
2021-02-02T20:41:36 #kisslinux <E5ten> I think as long as whatever takes over is willing to step aside if he comes back that, there isn't really an alternative to someone(s) taking over and it's fine
2021-02-02T20:42:01 #kisslinux <dilyn> ^
2021-02-02T20:45:58 #kisslinux <acheam> I'm afraid that there may not be any single person capable of taking over and maintaining the project like Dylan who's willing
2021-02-02T20:46:29 #kisslinux <acheam> The worst thing we could do for the project is appointing an unfit BDFL
2021-02-02T21:07:08 #kisslinux <kiedtl> I mean, whoever you appoint, just make sure it isn't the 4chan moron
2021-02-02T21:07:46 #kisslinux <dilyn> lmfaooooooooo god no
2021-02-02T21:08:15 #kisslinux <dilyn> i would fork this project so fuckin quick
2021-02-02T21:08:33 #kisslinux <midfavila> who's that supposed to refer to?
2021-02-02T21:08:36 #kisslinux <acheam> ^
2021-02-02T21:10:08 #kisslinux <midfavila> i've never posted on 4chins smh
2021-02-02T21:10:32 #kisslinux <aarng> the dogwhistle-gate guy?
2021-02-02T21:11:07 #kisslinux <midfavila> either I missed something or I'm even more socially oblivious than usual, because I've got no clue who that is
2021-02-02T21:11:52 #kisslinux <kiedtl> midfavila: some retard here who did a nazi dogwhistle once
2021-02-02T21:11:56 #kisslinux <E5ten> you absolutely know lmao
2021-02-02T21:12:12 #kisslinux <kiedtl> midfavila: two major contributors left because of it
2021-02-02T21:12:32 #kisslinux <midfavila> yeah, no, not ringing a bell. sorry
2021-02-02T21:12:33 #kisslinux * midfavila shrugs
2021-02-02T21:12:45 #kisslinux <E5ten> midfavila: you were literally part of that conversation
2021-02-02T21:12:50 #kisslinux <kiedtl> hm, yeah
2021-02-02T21:12:53 #kisslinux <midfavila> unless you mean that dude who showed up for all of about fifteen minutes..?
2021-02-02T21:13:09 #kisslinux <kiedtl> periish left afterwards, you remember
2021-02-02T21:13:12 #kisslinux <midfavila> i don't make it a habit to commit random IRC convos to memory fwiw
2021-02-02T21:14:06 #kisslinux <dilyn> lol
2021-02-02T21:14:11 #kisslinux <kiedtl> I mean
2021-02-02T21:14:14 #kisslinux <kiedtl> that shitshow
2021-02-02T21:14:14 #kisslinux <dilyn> to the logs!
2021-02-02T21:14:29 #kisslinux <kiedtl> you'd think anyone who was around would remember *that* flaming garbage
2021-02-02T21:14:32 #kisslinux <kiedtl> lol
2021-02-02T21:14:35 #kisslinux <E5ten> "I just don't remember that time a thing happened that I was present for"
2021-02-02T21:15:01 #kisslinux <kiedtl> sorry midfavila, not trying to shit on you for not remebering it
2021-02-02T21:15:06 #kisslinux <midfavila> i mean it's whatever
2021-02-02T21:15:18 #kisslinux <kiedtl> s/remebering/remembering/
2021-02-02T21:15:19 #kisslinux <kissbot> <kiedtl> sorry midfavila, not trying to shit on you for not remembering it
2021-02-02T21:15:24 #kisslinux <kiedtl> oops. double ping.
2021-02-02T21:15:28 #kisslinux <midfavila> i don't get worked up over that kind of stuff so it's not surprising I forgot about it
2021-02-02T21:15:36 #kisslinux <midfavila> just some dude on the net.
2021-02-02T21:15:37 #kisslinux * midfavila shrugs
2021-02-02T21:17:19 #kisslinux <aarng> not that I condone shit like that, but leaving because of it is just as silly in my book
2021-02-02T21:17:28 #kisslinux <midfavila> i mean, yeah
2021-02-02T21:17:30 #kisslinux <midfavila> it is
2021-02-02T21:17:38 #kisslinux <midfavila> if you don't like someone just don't talk to them
2021-02-02T21:17:38 #kisslinux <dilyn> i mean it's not silly to them
2021-02-02T21:18:19 #kisslinux <kiedtl> aarng: they left because they disagreed with dylan over whether nazis should be allowed in here
2021-02-02T21:18:24 #kisslinux <E5ten> very silly to leave because someone says nazi shit, totally unreasonable for that to make someone uncomfortable
2021-02-02T21:18:46 #kisslinux <midfavila> i dunno i'd rather let unsavory types be than start banning people i disagree with
2021-02-02T21:19:06 #kisslinux <kiedtl> you say that from a position of privilege. If you went through the stuff some others did then you wouldn't think that way :(
2021-02-02T21:19:12 #kisslinux <midfavila> motherfucker
2021-02-02T21:19:14 #kisslinux <dilyn> ^
2021-02-02T21:19:16 #kisslinux <midfavila> you don't know shit about me
2021-02-02T21:19:17 #kisslinux <E5ten> intellectually dishonest to frame a general "people I disagree with" and "people who say literal nazi stuff" as equivalent
2021-02-02T21:19:18 #kisslinux <kiedtl> what
2021-02-02T21:19:19 #kisslinux <dilyn> lol
2021-02-02T21:19:29 #kisslinux <midfavila> "privilege"
2021-02-02T21:19:32 #kisslinux <kiedtl> yes
2021-02-02T21:19:36 #kisslinux <midfavila> i've lived in homeless shelters for six years
2021-02-02T21:19:41 #kisslinux <kiedtl> not in that way.
2021-02-02T21:19:48 #kisslinux <midfavila> whatever man
2021-02-02T21:19:50 #kisslinux <kiedtl> I mean, jfc, whatever
2021-02-02T21:19:51 #kisslinux <dilyn> describing nazi dogwhistlers as 'people i disagree with' and banning them is not the same as 'banning people i disagree with'
2021-02-02T21:19:52 #kisslinux <E5ten> everyone knows that there is a difference between general disagreement and literally saying nazi stuff
2021-02-02T21:19:53 #kisslinux <midfavila> i'm not going to debate this with you
2021-02-02T21:19:56 #kisslinux <dilyn> everyone should disagree with nazis
2021-02-02T21:19:59 #kisslinux <kiedtl> what dilyn said
2021-02-02T21:20:00 #kisslinux <midfavila> because it's autistic
2021-02-02T21:20:05 #kisslinux <kiedtl> mhm
2021-02-02T21:20:15 #kisslinux <dilyn> so privilege takes a billion forms
2021-02-02T21:20:24 #kisslinux <dilyn> you are privileged to have never lived under opressive nazi regimes, for instance
2021-02-02T21:20:25 #kisslinux <dilyn> ¯_(ツ)_/¯
2021-02-02T21:20:28 #kisslinux <kiedtl> ^^
2021-02-02T21:20:32 #kisslinux <kiedtl> precisely that
2021-02-02T21:20:40 #kisslinux <midfavila> literally nobody under like, the age of eighty has lived under a noseeism regime
2021-02-02T21:20:44 #kisslinux <kiedtl> You are privileged to never have to deal with those motherfuckers
2021-02-02T21:20:55 #kisslinux <kiedtl> You are privileged to never be harrassed by them
2021-02-02T21:21:00 #kisslinux <midfavila> you're right
2021-02-02T21:21:07 #kisslinux <dilyn> italy was fascist until the 80s dawg
2021-02-02T21:21:13 #kisslinux <midfavila> i've had the privilege of being harassed for using the wrong dank maymays
2021-02-02T21:21:24 #kisslinux <dilyn> lmao
2021-02-02T21:21:34 #kisslinux <E5ten> "I'm being harassed because people tell me to shut the fuck up when I say nazi shit"
2021-02-02T21:21:37 #kisslinux <dilyn> you have a really reductivist account of privilege and power
2021-02-02T21:21:42 #kisslinux <kiedtl> Do you realize I would be smashed to a pulp if those halfwits had their way, midfavila?
2021-02-02T21:21:58 #kisslinux <midfavila> and at that point someone should step in.
2021-02-02T21:22:16 #kisslinux <midfavila> until they actually *do* something, what they have to say is no more or less important than any other group
2021-02-02T21:22:25 #kisslinux <dilyn> so we should allow these people to exist with us in communities up until the point where they act on their twisted beliefs?
2021-02-02T21:22:30 #kisslinux <dilyn> that seems insane
2021-02-02T21:22:36 #kisslinux <E5ten> wow really, I actually think it might be better if someone stepped in before kiedtl gets assaulted
2021-02-02T21:22:50 #kisslinux <midfavila> when they start causing actual physical harm or threatening to, then they should be dealt with
2021-02-02T21:23:00 #kisslinux <kiedtl> That's what I thought for a loong time
2021-02-02T21:23:03 #kisslinux <midfavila> but having different beliefs doesn't constitute a physical threat to your safety
2021-02-02T21:23:08 #kisslinux <E5ten> buddy, spreading nazi shit is itself threatening harm
2021-02-02T21:23:14 #kisslinux <kiedtl> Until I actually met some of those retards
2021-02-02T21:23:17 #kisslinux <midfavila> do you even know what a nazi is?
2021-02-02T21:23:21 #kisslinux <kiedtl> >.>
2021-02-02T21:23:23 #kisslinux <dilyn> it does when those beliefs are literally "we should commit genocide against these people"
2021-02-02T21:23:26 #kisslinux <midfavila> i used to deal with them on a daily basis
2021-02-02T21:23:37 #kisslinux <midfavila> most of them literally couldn't give less of a shit about what you're doing
2021-02-02T21:23:45 #kisslinux <dilyn> smh
2021-02-02T21:23:52 #kisslinux <kiedtl> >.<
2021-02-02T21:24:12 #kisslinux <kiedtl> Because they don't care about you. But they some deep feeling about people like me.
2021-02-02T21:24:34 #kisslinux <midfavila> then ignore them and if they start making threats report them
2021-02-02T21:24:45 #kisslinux <midfavila> they aren't going to reach through the screen and curbstomp you, man
2021-02-02T21:25:04 #kisslinux <dilyn> that isn't the point
2021-02-02T21:25:11 #kisslinux <E5ten> "ideas are never spread between people, saying a thing can never have harmful impacts"
2021-02-02T21:25:17 #kisslinux <midfavila> at the end of the day they have a right to speak
2021-02-02T21:25:20 #kisslinux <dilyn> nazi rhetoric is not the same as 'you are a poopy pants and i think you're dumb'
2021-02-02T21:25:22 #kisslinux <midfavila> and you have a right to associate, or not
2021-02-02T21:25:31 #kisslinux <dilyn> jesus whAT
2021-02-02T21:25:34 #kisslinux <kiedtl> nazis do NOT have a right to speak anywhere
2021-02-02T21:25:46 #kisslinux <dilyn> you have a right to not be silenced by state actors
2021-02-02T21:25:56 #kisslinux <dilyn> who here represents the government of the United States of America?
2021-02-02T21:26:08 #kisslinux <dilyn> I'll silence Nazis all day
2021-02-02T21:26:14 #kisslinux <dilyn> miss me with that first ammendment bullshit
2021-02-02T21:26:14 #kisslinux <midfavila> imagine thinking I give a shit about the government of the USA
2021-02-02T21:26:16 #kisslinux <kiedtl> I'll do the night shift
2021-02-02T21:26:21 #kisslinux <midfavila> i'm not even american.
2021-02-02T21:26:26 #kisslinux <kiedtl> German?
2021-02-02T21:26:39 #kisslinux <dilyn> jesus bruv i guess you've invalidated my whole point
2021-02-02T21:26:39 #kisslinux <midfavila> my nationality is irrelevant, but for the record I'm Canadian
2021-02-02T21:26:40 #kisslinux <E5ten> lemme just be clear right here for a second though, midfavila, you are very obviously sympathetic to nazi views, so stop fucking pretending like this is just some neutral "free speech" issue for you
2021-02-02T21:26:46 #kisslinux <midfavila> >sympathetic
2021-02-02T21:27:01 #kisslinux <midfavila> >"hey maybe we shouldn't silence anyone and everyone just because they're labelled as something"
2021-02-02T21:27:07 #kisslinux <kiedtl> Where was that carbslinux channel again?
2021-02-02T21:27:30 #kisslinux <dilyn> f
2021-02-02T21:27:50 #kisslinux <midfavila> i don't particularly recall advocating for violence based on racial or religious grounds. or advocating for violence in general
2021-02-02T21:27:55 #kisslinux <dilyn> that's just a super laizze faire attitude about what ideas amount to dawg
2021-02-02T21:28:05 #kisslinux <dilyn> it's wildly inaccurate, incorrect, and disingenuous
2021-02-02T21:28:26 #kisslinux * midfavila shrugs
2021-02-02T21:28:43 #kisslinux <E5ten> "I'm a big dumb idiot, fascists never try to hide their true beliefs, you can never ever figure out what someone believes based on context unless they directly say they want to kill jews"
2021-02-02T21:29:03 #kisslinux <midfavila> i don't believe in taking what overzealous people say at face value, sorry
2021-02-02T21:29:14 #kisslinux <midfavila> i've been the victim of tar and feathering before and it's not fun
2021-02-02T21:29:22 #kisslinux <E5ten> "I just defend nazis here, not sympathetic to them though"
2021-02-02T21:29:36 #kisslinux <midfavila> i'd defend a communist or anarchist just as quickly.
2021-02-02T21:29:38 #kisslinux <kiedtl> "Nazis are just overzealous people who just need to be understood"
2021-02-02T21:29:40 #kisslinux <dilyn> this is so easy
2021-02-02T21:29:49 #kisslinux <midfavila> it's very easy when you strawman people, yes
2021-02-02T21:29:49 #kisslinux <dilyn> are you a nazi or sympathize with nazis?
2021-02-02T21:29:50 #kisslinux <kiedtl> communist != anarchist != nazi
2021-02-02T21:29:52 #kisslinux <dilyn> yes: fuck yourself
2021-02-02T21:29:55 #kisslinux <dilyn> no: don't use dogwhistles
2021-02-02T21:29:56 #kisslinux <dilyn> ez pz
2021-02-02T21:30:40 #kisslinux <dilyn> like I don't understand the problem. we all agree nazis are bad, we all agree that nobody should agree with nazi ideology. we all agree that nazis should not have power
2021-02-02T21:30:47 #kisslinux <midfavila> i don't appreciate policing of language. people can speak how they wish about what they wish, short of advocating for violence.
2021-02-02T21:30:54 #kisslinux <midfavila> that's a pretty moderate stance.
2021-02-02T21:30:56 #kisslinux <E5ten> honestly, by comparing nazis to communists and anarchists and asserting that these are equal positions in terms of "they shouldn't be silenced" you're absolutely proving that you are sympathetic to nazis
2021-02-02T21:30:56 #kisslinux <dilyn> we know that prominent nazi leaders rose to power by spreading their ideas in communities
2021-02-02T21:31:03 #kisslinux <dilyn> and so... we shouldn't let them do that...
2021-02-02T21:31:17 #kisslinux <dilyn> midfavila that is *not* moderate
2021-02-02T21:31:22 #kisslinux <dilyn> that is an extremist view
2021-02-02T21:31:26 #kisslinux <midfavila> "hey I don't think we should silence anyone based on their political beliefs" somehow translates to "you're a nazi sympathizer"
2021-02-02T21:31:28 #kisslinux <midfavila> k
2021-02-02T21:31:34 #kisslinux <dilyn> bru
2021-02-02T21:31:35 #kisslinux <midfavila> that's enough internet for one day I think, lel
2021-02-02T21:31:36 #kisslinux <kiedtl> strawmen
2021-02-02T21:32:00 #kisslinux <kiedtl> I'm fine with a conservative or a liberatarian in here. A Nazi? No way.
2021-02-02T21:32:19 #kisslinux <E5ten> nazi dogwhistles are literally advocating for violence, that's literally the point of them, they are meant to outwardly appear benign, while sending the message of violence to the other nazis
2021-02-02T21:32:31 #kisslinux <midfavila> if I want to post frogs all day I will
2021-02-02T21:32:35 #kisslinux <midfavila> and if you don't like it, don't look at them
2021-02-02T21:32:46 #kisslinux <kiedtl> the person who did the dogwhistle was trying to make people get used to them
2021-02-02T21:32:57 #kisslinux <kiedtl> >post frogs
2021-02-02T21:32:57 #kisslinux <dilyn> jesus dude
2021-02-02T21:33:09 #kisslinux <kiedtl> how tthe fuck do frogs == nazi dogwhistle
2021-02-02T21:33:19 #kisslinux <E5ten> the person who did the dogwhistle literally posted a pic of an antisemitic conspiracy book, like they're a literal fucking nazi, shut the fuck up midfavia
2021-02-02T21:33:20 #kisslinux <kiedtl> You know what
2021-02-02T21:33:21 #kisslinux <midfavila> apparently pepe has been a nazi dogwhistle since 2016
2021-02-02T21:33:21 #kisslinux <E5ten> midfavila*
2021-02-02T21:33:26 #kisslinux <E5ten> literal nazi shit
2021-02-02T21:33:27 #kisslinux <E5ten> not just pepe
2021-02-02T21:33:29 #kisslinux <E5ten> fuck off
2021-02-02T21:33:37 #kisslinux <kiedtl> midfavila is right
2021-02-02T21:33:42 #kisslinux <kiedtl> this is enough internet for one day
2021-02-02T21:33:53 #kisslinux <dilyn> if someone says 'hey did you know that foobarbaz is a slogan used by racist morons to signal to other racist morons that they are racist morons?' and you say 'i didn't' and they say 'so don't say it?' and you say 'but i like all the vowels'
2021-02-02T21:33:59 #kisslinux <dilyn> it makes you sound so fucking dumb
2021-02-02T21:34:16 #kisslinux <E5ten> kiedtl: well he's certainly "right" as in far-right lol
2021-02-02T21:34:20 #kisslinux <midfavila> it's moreso "I don't really care what people say because words are words."
2021-02-02T21:34:35 #kisslinux <dilyn> that's so fucking not true
2021-02-02T21:34:35 #kisslinux <midfavila> again, short of advocating explicitly for violence or something, it's their basic right to do so
2021-02-02T21:34:54 #kisslinux <midfavila> man, the one time I try to visit the UN website and it doesn't want to load
2021-02-02T21:34:57 #kisslinux <E5ten> not in here, there is nothing that gives anyone a right to say anything in here lol
2021-02-02T21:35:02 #kisslinux <dilyn> ^
2021-02-02T21:35:14 #kisslinux <kiedtl> "Words are words guis, just ingore the dogwissel !!!"
2021-02-02T21:35:22 #kisslinux <dilyn> the idea that 'words are words' is painfully ignorant to what the fucking point of words is
2021-02-02T21:35:23 #kisslinux <midfavila> article nineteen of the declaration of human rights
2021-02-02T21:35:29 #kisslinux <kiedtl> This channel must not become 4chan
2021-02-02T21:35:33 #kisslinux <midfavila> everyone has the right to fredom of opinion and expression
2021-02-02T21:35:39 #kisslinux <E5ten> not here
2021-02-02T21:35:44 #kisslinux <kiedtl> midfavila: If you want your amendment right, go back to 4chan.
2021-02-02T21:35:46 #kisslinux <midfavila> if they're a human, they do
2021-02-02T21:35:54 #kisslinux <dilyn> bruh you can't quote government or state documents that explicitly declare a STATE shall not infringe these rights to tell US, NON STATE ACTORS, how to act
2021-02-02T21:36:07 #kisslinux <E5ten> oh so literally everyone has the right to express their opinion in this IRC channel?
2021-02-02T21:36:10 #kisslinux <midfavila> it doesn't specify a state.
2021-02-02T21:36:16 #kisslinux <E5ten> that's what you think that says?
2021-02-02T21:36:16 #kisslinux <kiedtl> it's a fucking state document
2021-02-02T21:36:23 #kisslinux <midfavila> wow, I learned something new today
2021-02-02T21:36:27 #kisslinux <midfavila> i didn't realize the UN was a state
2021-02-02T21:36:27 #kisslinux <kiedtl> same
2021-02-02T21:36:39 #kisslinux <dilyn> UN is literally a chartered organization of like 198 countries agreeing to common laws and actions to be taken by all governments across the globe
2021-02-02T21:36:51 #kisslinux <dilyn> the geneva conventions dont' govern sally sue down the block from me. they govern the Assad regime
2021-02-02T21:37:20 #kisslinux <midfavila> uh huh. regardless, I hold the rights expressed in that document as fundamentally important.
2021-02-02T21:37:24 #kisslinux <midfavila> if you disagree, that's fine
2021-02-02T21:37:26 #kisslinux <dilyn> sure, so do WE
2021-02-02T21:37:42 #kisslinux <dilyn> but we dont' have to just let people spew nazi shit because the UN says it isn't literally illegal to do
2021-02-02T21:37:44 #kisslinux <midfavila> but holding inalienable human rights as sacred isn't "far right" or "nazi sympathizing"
2021-02-02T21:37:58 #kisslinux <midfavila> so i'd appreciate it if you would like, not slander me, thanks
2021-02-02T21:38:03 #kisslinux <E5ten> dilyn: it's not worth debating a nazi tbh
2021-02-02T21:38:03 #kisslinux <dilyn> that's a strawman if what e5ten is saying
2021-02-02T21:38:08 #kisslinux <dilyn> lol
2021-02-02T21:38:14 #kisslinux <dilyn> no, we should punch nazis
2021-02-02T21:38:18 #kisslinux <dilyn> and this isn't a debate
2021-02-02T21:38:20 #kisslinux <E5ten> absolutely
2021-02-02T21:38:20 #kisslinux <kiedtl> There is a fundemental difference between howling out your ideology on the street, a far-right newsletter, or in the public, vs in this channel
2021-02-02T21:38:25 #kisslinux <dilyn> you can't debate libertarians about anything
2021-02-02T21:38:29 #kisslinux <midfavila> well, hopefully you never do so in my neighborhood, dilyn.
2021-02-02T21:38:36 #kisslinux <midfavila> good afternoon.
2021-02-02T21:38:52 #kisslinux <dilyn> why do you live in a nazi neighborhood
2021-02-02T21:38:59 #kisslinux <kiedtl> you know the answer
2021-02-02T21:39:07 #kisslinux <E5ten> midfavila: if I ever see you spouting nazi bullshit in our country, be sure that I will punch you
2021-02-02T21:39:13 #kisslinux <midfavila> i don't. but I don't live in a violent neighborhood either. violent people aren't welcome here.
2021-02-02T21:39:35 #kisslinux <E5ten> well if it's not a violent neighbourhood, there won't be anyone spouting nazi bullshit
2021-02-02T21:39:49 #kisslinux <kiedtl> or sympathizing with them, either
2021-02-02T21:40:16 #kisslinux <midfavila> speech is not violence. end of discussion.
2021-02-02T21:40:31 #kisslinux <kiedtl> ack
2021-02-02T21:40:36 #kisslinux <dilyn> lmfaooooo
2021-02-02T21:40:42 #kisslinux <dilyn> speech is not intelligence
2021-02-02T21:40:45 #kisslinux <dilyn> speech is not affluence
2021-02-02T21:40:49 #kisslinux <dilyn> speech is not wealth
2021-02-02T21:40:53 #kisslinux <dilyn> speech is education
2021-02-02T21:40:57 #kisslinux <dilyn> speech is not a marker of freedom
2021-02-02T21:41:24 #kisslinux <dilyn> to believe any of this bs is to just completely miss the point of what speech is
2021-02-02T21:41:37 #kisslinux <dilyn> if you didn't think speech had value you'd communicate in ba's and nobody would fucking understand you
2021-02-02T21:41:44 #kisslinux <midfavila> all speech is, is a method to communicate ideas
2021-02-02T21:41:56 #kisslinux <midfavila> also, wow, you have no idea how amusing that last quote is out of context
2021-02-02T21:42:03 #kisslinux <E5ten> and if those ideas are violent?
2021-02-02T21:42:04 #kisslinux <kiedtl> which is why we should ensure that nazis don't get in here
2021-02-02T21:42:12 #kisslinux <kiedtl> >a method to communicate ideas
2021-02-02T21:42:33 #kisslinux <midfavila> if the ideas are violent, then I can discuss with them and learn why they hold those beliefs. maybe convince them that they're wrong
2021-02-02T21:42:48 #kisslinux <midfavila> but until they actually engage in or explicitly advocate for violence it's not actually hurting anyone
2021-02-02T21:43:05 #kisslinux <dilyn> bruh if we can't convince you YOU'RE wrong
2021-02-02T21:43:05 #kisslinux <kiedtl> It hurts those they advocate violence against
2021-02-02T21:43:10 #kisslinux <dilyn> what makes you think you can convince a nazi they're wrong
2021-02-02T21:43:18 #kisslinux <dilyn> they think they're right just as much as you think you're right
2021-02-02T21:44:05 #kisslinux <dilyn> read a book about linguistic practices and another about violent epistemologies before you bikeshed all of human interaction
2021-02-02T21:44:05 #kisslinux <midfavila> i mean, what makes me think I'm right? how about the fact that I've talked multiple people out of it?
2021-02-02T21:44:19 #kisslinux <dilyn> and yet nazis continue to exist
2021-02-02T21:44:24 #kisslinux <dilyn> go do the lord's work m8
2021-02-02T21:44:28 #kisslinux <midfavila> shockingly, individuals make their choices
2021-02-02T21:45:36 #kisslinux <kiedtl> midfavila: I agree with you on that. Yes, it's nice to talk Nazis out of their toxic beliefs. But can we please agree that they shouldn't be in this channel? There's no need to reason with them here, or to let them be in here.
2021-02-02T21:45:48 #kisslinux <midfavila> there's no reason to not let them be in here.
2021-02-02T21:45:57 #kisslinux <E5ten> you don't talk nazis out of being nazis by letting them say nazi stuff
2021-02-02T21:45:57 #kisslinux <midfavila> i don't view "he has bad opinions" as a valid reason, by the by.
2021-02-02T21:46:00 #kisslinux <dilyn> jesus h christ
2021-02-02T21:46:00 #kisslinux <E5ten> absolutely not how it works
2021-02-02T21:46:08 #kisslinux <midfavila> if you say so :p
2021-02-02T21:46:16 #kisslinux <dilyn> brooooooooooooo
2021-02-02T21:46:25 #kisslinux <midfavila> BrOoOoOoOoOoOoOooOo
2021-02-02T21:46:32 #kisslinux <midfavila> what's up my man
2021-02-02T21:51:37 #kisslinux <dilyn> trying to come up with the most nonhostile way to say anything
2021-02-02T21:51:53 #kisslinux <kiedtl> It's not worth it, dilyn
2021-02-02T21:51:58 #kisslinux <midfavila> nah don't bother, this conversation devolved into pointless hostility like twenty minutes ago
2021-02-02T21:52:21 #kisslinux <dilyn> what line of reasoning leads you to the conclusion that no forms of speech are violent, or that speech cannot be violent? or that all speech acts writ large should be free and not subject to criticism or restriction?
2021-02-02T21:52:24 #kisslinux <dilyn> OH
2021-02-02T21:52:32 #kisslinux <kiedtl> I mean, at least the motherfucker who started this whole thing isn't here
2021-02-02T21:52:37 #kisslinux <dilyn> oh well okay then I guess nothing matters and we should allow anything to happen :v
2021-02-02T21:52:38 #kisslinux <kiedtl> I haven't seen them for a while
2021-02-02T21:52:56 #kisslinux <midfavila> that's because they showed up, got their kicks from pissing people off, and left
2021-02-02T21:53:14 #kisslinux <kiedtl> I've even forgotten their username
2021-02-02T21:53:41 #kisslinux <midfavila> and okay, here, let's try to restart
2021-02-02T21:53:49 #kisslinux <kiedtl> no
2021-02-02T21:53:52 #kisslinux <midfavila> i was this to be somewhat civil and productive.
2021-02-02T21:53:55 #kisslinux <midfavila> s/was/want
2021-02-02T21:53:56 #kisslinux <kissbot> <midfavila> i want this to be somewhat civil and productive.
2021-02-02T21:54:13 #kisslinux <midfavila> so can I respond honestly, dilyn?
2021-02-02T21:54:57 #kisslinux <dilyn> lying is wrong so i don't know why you would ask me this
2021-02-02T21:55:31 #kisslinux <midfavila> because I'd like to speak without having "hurr dogwhistle sympathizer" thrown around without merit.
2021-02-02T21:57:16 #kisslinux <dilyn> lmfao
2021-02-02T21:57:23 #kisslinux <dilyn> don't be disingenuous
2021-02-02T21:57:30 #kisslinux <midfavila> i suppose I'll take that as a no
2021-02-02T21:58:01 #kisslinux <dilyn> wat
2021-02-02T21:58:04 #kisslinux <dilyn> that doesn't make any sense
2021-02-02T21:58:51 #kisslinux <midfavila> I'm not being disingenious. From my perspective that's just how you three've treated what I've had to say.
2021-02-02T21:59:15 #kisslinux <midfavila> If you don't want to have an honest conversation without resorting to "if you're not with us you're against us" mentality then I don't want to have a conversation.
2021-02-02T22:00:22 #kisslinux <kiedtl> Yeah... I think I was a bit quick to come to a conclusion.
2021-02-02T22:00:36 #kisslinux <midfavila> More than a bit.
2021-02-02T22:00:44 #kisslinux <dilyn> s m h
2021-02-02T22:00:56 #kisslinux <kiedtl> I'm sorry. This whole convo about letting nazis coexist in this channel touched a swollen nerve.
2021-02-02T22:00:56 #kisslinux * midfavila shrugs
2021-02-02T22:01:22 #kisslinux <midfavila> It's fine. People are... extra touchy about this sort of stuff, especially after the past few years
2021-02-02T22:11:50 #kisslinux <kiedtl> Convo reminds me of this Lobsters comment: https://lobste.rs/s/mox75k/2021_mod_applications#c_vbs9tl
2021-02-02T22:12:01 #kisslinux <kiedtl> s/comment/thread/
2021-02-02T22:12:01 #kisslinux <kissbot> <kiedtl> Convo reminds me of this Lobsters thread: https://lobste.rs/s/mox75k/2021_mod_applications#c_vbs9tl
2021-02-02T22:12:28 #kisslinux <midfavila> god, *that* trashfire of a site?
2021-02-02T22:12:49 #kisslinux <midfavila> everything I've seen on there is such a waste
2021-02-02T22:15:50 #kisslinux <kiedtl> I'm just putting it here in the hopes that those who feel it's OK for Nazis to be here will see others positions and why they hold the viewpoints they do.
2021-02-02T22:16:08 #kisslinux <midfavila> don't get me wrong, I understand the viewpoint and why it's held.
2021-02-02T22:16:14 #kisslinux <kiedtl> If you're not going to take a look, that's OK. Lobsters it becoming a crazy place lol
2021-02-02T22:16:18 #kisslinux <kiedtl> s/it/is
2021-02-02T22:16:18 #kisslinux <kissbot> <kiedtl> If you're not going to take a look, that's OK. Lobsters is becoming a crazy place lol
2021-02-02T22:16:22 #kisslinux <midfavila> i'm reading it right now actually
2021-02-02T22:16:27 #kisslinux <kiedtl> k
2021-02-02T22:16:38 #kisslinux <acheam> that convo was surely something to read through.
2021-02-02T22:17:05 #kisslinux <midfavila> i largely agree with what this habibalman dude is saying fwiw
2021-02-02T22:17:23 #kisslinux <acheam> It does raise important questions though, and questions that are easiest answered when there is a sole BDFL to make decision...
2021-02-02T22:17:42 #kisslinux <midfavila> if I'm being honest, this interaction makes me believe more firmly that we shouldn't depose dylan
2021-02-02T22:17:58 #kisslinux <kiedtl> we're *not* deposing him
2021-02-02T22:18:01 #kisslinux <acheam> ^
2021-02-02T22:18:11 #kisslinux <kiedtl> we're taking over the project in his absence.
2021-02-02T22:18:13 #kisslinux <kiedtl> If he comes back
2021-02-02T22:18:15 #kisslinux <kiedtl> we hand it back
2021-02-02T22:18:16 #kisslinux <midfavila> replacing, whatever
2021-02-02T22:18:20 #kisslinux <kiedtl> no
2021-02-02T22:18:23 #kisslinux <kiedtl> not really
2021-02-02T22:18:39 #kisslinux <midfavila> it's a temporary thing, but it doesn't change what it is
2021-02-02T22:18:40 #kisslinux * midfavila shrugs
2021-02-02T22:18:53 #kisslinux <acheam> Its better than the project going to waste
2021-02-02T22:18:56 #kisslinux <kiedtl> ^
2021-02-02T22:19:05 #kisslinux <kiedtl> stagnate would be a better term
2021-02-02T22:19:12 #kisslinux <acheam> yeah
2021-02-02T22:19:23 #kisslinux <midfavila> i'd rather work on it as a collective than replace the BDFL, even if it is temporary
2021-02-02T22:19:25 #kisslinux <midfavila> but that's just me
2021-02-02T22:19:34 #kisslinux <acheam> But after March 30?
2021-02-02T22:19:43 #kisslinux <midfavila> then we move forward, collectively
2021-02-02T22:19:44 #kisslinux <acheam> we can't hold on to Dylan forever if he doesn't come back
2021-02-02T22:19:56 #kisslinux <acheam> I'm starting to think collectively might not work
2021-02-02T22:20:01 #kisslinux <dilyn> lol
2021-02-02T22:20:25 #kisslinux <midfavila> I dunno man
2021-02-02T22:20:32 #kisslinux <midfavila> I'm not a project manager or anything like that
2021-02-02T22:20:58 #kisslinux <acheam> In the short term yes, but in the long term, tough decisions do need to be made and "a camel is a horse designed by a comittee"
2021-02-02T22:21:28 #kisslinux <midfavila> sure, but do we even have anyone here capable of replacing him?
2021-02-02T22:21:34 #kisslinux <acheam> I don't think so
2021-02-02T22:21:38 #kisslinux <midfavila> that's my point
2021-02-02T22:21:57 #kisslinux <midfavila> we don't really have a lot of options
2021-02-02T22:22:26 #kisslinux <midfavila> like I said earlier, I think the sawfish people have a decent system going on
2021-02-02T22:22:28 #kisslinux <acheam> I think we need a BDFL who may not be as technically adept as dylan, but is able to make tough decisions and lead the project forward, and then subteams can work on the technical side
2021-02-02T22:22:56 #kisslinux <acheam> Whats sawfish doing?
2021-02-02T22:23:07 #kisslinux <kiedtl> sawfish?
2021-02-02T22:23:15 #kisslinux <midfavila> LISP-based window manager
2021-02-02T22:23:18 #kisslinux <midfavila> was the wm for GNOME 1
2021-02-02T22:23:23 #kisslinux <midfavila> it's pretty comfy
2021-02-02T22:23:24 #kisslinux <midfavila> anyway
2021-02-02T22:23:35 #kisslinux <midfavila> they've been doing the whole "collective work" thing for over a decade
2021-02-02T22:23:54 #kisslinux <midfavila> basically people just come, work on it for a while, and if they like it they stay and help out more. otherwise they can leave whenever
2021-02-02T22:24:00 #kisslinux <midfavila> they use a wiki format for all their docs and stuff.
2021-02-02T22:24:07 #kisslinux <midfavila> idk it seems to work out pretty well for them
2021-02-02T22:24:10 #kisslinux <acheam> I like that
2021-02-02T22:24:18 #kisslinux <midfavila> that's what I think we need to do
2021-02-02T22:24:24 #kisslinux <acheam> BUt you still need a BDFL for that
2021-02-02T22:24:28 #kisslinux <midfavila> not really
2021-02-02T22:24:34 #kisslinux <midfavila> sawfish hasn't had one since the 90s iirc
2021-02-02T22:24:38 #kisslinux <acheam> Without a solid vision, the project will run all over the place
2021-02-02T22:24:48 #kisslinux <midfavila> we have dylan's "manifesto" or whatever
2021-02-02T22:25:20 #kisslinux <acheam> Christopher Bratusek seems to be the main guy behind sawfish rn
2021-02-02T22:25:31 #kisslinux <acheam> I don't think you can lead the whole distro off of the guidestones
2021-02-02T22:25:44 #kisslinux <acheam> I mean, the guidestones probably wouldn't agree with kiss-community
2021-02-02T22:26:25 #kisslinux * midfavila shrugs
2021-02-02T22:26:26 #kisslinux <acheam> the existence of it, that is
2021-02-02T22:26:44 #kisslinux <acheam> Shrugging won't do, we need someone who can make a decision
2021-02-02T22:27:04 #kisslinux <midfavila> well, I'm not nearly experienced enough to do that, so I dunno what you want me to do
2021-02-02T22:27:30 #kisslinux <midfavila> ultimately I started with KISS because it's fun, I don't want to play politics to elect a new BDFL
2021-02-02T22:27:31 #kisslinux <acheam> i'm just bein cynical
2021-02-02T22:27:42 #kisslinux <acheam> thats a good point
2021-02-02T22:28:02 #kisslinux <midfavila> and then deal with the fallout of "what if dylan comes back" or "what if his vision is perverted" or "what if KISS ends up becoming ideologically charged like Debian or Red Hat"
2021-02-02T22:28:15 #kisslinux <midfavila> i tinker with computers to have fun, not to stress out
2021-02-02T22:28:27 #kisslinux <midfavila> and lately I haven't been having much fun
2021-02-02T22:29:17 #kisslinux <dilyn> as far as I'm concerned we're not making any changes to KISS fundamentally
2021-02-02T22:29:45 #kisslinux <dilyn> kiss is basically feature complete, init is basically finished, the core repository is pretty much the minimum required for the project's goals
2021-02-02T23:24:46 #kisslinux <aarng> ich war bad
2021-02-02T23:25:04 #kisslinux <aarng> ^ ignore, wrong chan
2021-02-02T23:51:52 #kisslinux <sad_plan> if KISS is as dylin here says, kiss being *feature complete*, there isnt really anything to do except keep the repos up do date. appart from, maybe work on some of the ideas that Dylan had in mind, like rewriting k in C, like he started.
2021-02-02T23:54:47 #kisslinux <aarng> I'm with dylin on that one, there isn't much to do
2021-02-02T23:55:32 #kisslinux <aarng> we just need people to keep the community repo clean of low quality packages/build files
2021-02-02T23:56:30 #kisslinux <sad_plan> that shouldnt be a problem. just go through the list, make an issue/pr for removal of that package
2021-02-02T23:57:08 #kisslinux <aarng> it shouldn't get merged in the first place imo
2021-02-02T23:58:54 #kisslinux <sad_plan> true, but yet here we are, with a repo that needs some cleaning. it shouldnt take too long imo, its not like the repo has 1000s of packages