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Title: Interview with Abdullah Ăcalan Author: Abdullah Ăcalan Date: June 1998 Language: en Topics: interview, Syria, Turkey, Rojava, PKK Source: Retrieved on 2018-12-16 from https://www.academia.edu/31739562/Interview_with_Abdullah_Ăcalan_-_Michael_M._Gunter_1998 Notes: Abdullah Ăcalan: âWe Are Fighting Turks Everywhere,â Middle East Quarterly, June 1998, pp. 7985, http://www.meforum.org/399/abdullahocalanwearefightingturkseverywhere
Abdullah (Apo) Ăcalan is the founder and leader of the Partiya Karkaren
Kurdistan (PKK) or Kurdistan Workers Party, an organization the U.S.
government deems to be terrorist. Born around 1948 in southeastern
Turkey, Ăcalan was a sometime student in political science at Ankara
University in 19678, where he began to form his ideas on Kurdish
nationalism. Ăcalan created the PKK in November 1978, moved to Syria in
May 1979, and began the current war against Turkey in August 1984. By
the spring of 1998, the PKKâs activities had led to more than 3,000
villages partially or totally destroyed, 27,000 deaths, and up to 3
million people displaced. Michael M. Gunter, professor of political
science at Tennessee Technological University and author of three books
on Kurdish issues, interviewed him in Damascus on March 1314, 1998.
My visit to Syria began by my obtaining a standard singleentry tourist
visa to the country, which I did without any political contacts or
sponsorship by the Syrian government. I paid my own way and flew into
Damascus on British Airways. Having alerted the PKK (via contacts in
Britain) to my arrival, I was met at the Damascus airport by PKK
operatives.
On each of my two days of discussions with Abdullah Ăcalan, I was driven
from my hotel in downtown Damascus via a circuitous route to my
destinationÍŸ presumably, the roundabout trip was to prevent me from
knowing exactly where I was going. The first meeting took place in a
large apartment in the Kurdish section of Damascus. The second one took
place a short distance outside of Damascus, in a nondescript structure
off a main highway. Inside the walled compound, I found a surprisingly
impressive villa and garden. Armed guards kept watch from the roof of
the villa. Attached to the villa compound was another, larger, walled
compound containing simple living quarters for some 170 male and female
fighters, an open green area, a cemented athletic area, and a lifesized
gilded statue of Mazlum Körkmaz, a PKK hero. The compound also seems to
be a place for rest and recreationÍŸ I met several wounded fighters
there, including
one who asked me to send his regards to relatives living in Great
Britain. I was informed that this complex is a Kurdishlanguage political
training school. I learned that a similar Turkish language political
training school exists in the vicinity but did not see it. I also heard
about a military training camp in the Bekaa Valley, Lebanon, but did not
visit it either.
Each of my meetings with Ăcalan lasted for some six hours and was
interrupted by lunch. Each day, Ăcalan had me wait while he attended to
other business. The first day, I waited about an hour as he met with two
parliamentarians of the PASOK Party, the Greek socialists (who later
joined us for lunch). The second day, he excused himself immediately
after lunch for a telephone call with his subordinates that lasted about
an hour and a half.
I found Ăcalan an engaging and polite host. During lunch breaks, for
example, he showed me the pigeons he keeps. He also let a honey bee
alight on his finger and mused how it was âhalf sweet and half poison.â
On my second day, I was invited to play volleyball and soccer with
Ăcalan and his followers. When formally posing for a picture, Ăcalan
turned deadly serious and rather wooden but at other times he smiled
easily. His conversation was often very animated. He showed a surprising
knowledge of international tennis stars, deeming André Agassi his
favorite but also talking about Jim Courier, Lindsay Davenport, Martina
Hingis, Martina Navatilova, and Pete Sampras. Ăcalan told me that he
admires tennis because âit involves strategy as well as strength and
power.â
I was permitted to take many photographs and to tape record each meeting
in its entirety. In the first meeting, Ăcalan spoke in Kurmanji Kurdish,
a language I was told he had recently learned to speak much betterÍŸ the
second day, he spoke in Turkish. The discussions on both days were
rendered somewhat amateurishly into English by translators Ăcalan
provided.
Why did Ăcalan agree to see me and provide extensive taped remarks?
Probably because he saw me as a useful vehicle by which to convey his
thoughts to a primarily American public.
Why, given that the Syrian authorities routinely deny Ăcalanâs presence
on Syria territory, did he (and implicitly, they too) allow me to see
and photograph him in Syria? I can only speculate that it might have
been to send a signal to the Turks. All I can say for sure is that no
one in the PKK ever requested that I not mention where I had met Ăcalan.
MEQ: Why do you fight against Turkey?
Ăcalan: In Turkey, they say there are no Kurds, that they donât exist.
The government says this. Even the professors at universities say this.
The Turks donât want to accept the KurdsÍŸ they want to finish [with]
them. Turkey only accepts the Kurd who denies he is a Kurd. The 70,000
Village Guards [Turkish Kurds armed by the government to support the
government] who claim they are the best Turks cannot even speak good
Turkish. [laughs] Turkeyâs obstinate, ignorant refusal to negotiate with
me has led to a culdesac it cannot get out of. Only a dialogue between
Turkey and its Kurds can get the victims out of this continuing trap.
MEQ: How have you been able to keep up the fight for so long?
Ăcalan: Anyone who thinks as a Kurd in Turkey is with the PKK. If Turkey
finishes the PKK, then it will have only the wall to talk to. I use
Turkish stupidity to build a Kurdish movement. This is very important.
Turkeyâs harsh, ignorant treatment of the Kurds has helped give birth to
a greater sense of Kurdish nationalism. I use Turkish mistakes to build
up my power.
MEQ: What type of settlement do you seek with Turkey?
Ăcalan: I accept the current Turkish borders. Nobody wants Turkey to be
divided. This is very important! I want to negotiate a just, democratic
solution to this twentyyearold struggle. The Turks must accept the
Kurdish identity. They should say in the constitution that there are
other people in Turkey and accept a federal system, as in the United
States, Germany, Switzerland, Belgium, and Spain.
MEQ: How can federalism work in Turkey when more than half the Turkish
citizens of Kurdish ethnic heritage no longer live in the southeast?
Ăcalan: It is a question of good will and terminology. We can find a
solution. When the existence of the Kurds is accepted, 70 percent of the
[Kurdish] problem will have been solved.
MEQ: If AtatĂŒrk were alive today, what do you suppose he would do to
solve the Kurdish problem? Andrew Mango, a British historian writing a
biography of AtatĂŒrk, says he would allow some local government and
expression for Kurds while seeking to keep them under the Turkish roof.
Ăcalan: We have two AtatĂŒrks, the one before and after 1925. Before
1925, AtatĂŒrk took a more positive attitude towards the Kurds. But after
that date, he began a very negative policy. If AtatĂŒrk were alive today,
however, he would not act like the Turkish leaders are now. He would see
the bankrupt result of his policy and change it. I agree that if AtatĂŒrk
were alive today, he would change Turkeyâs policy.
MEQ: What Turkish politicians do you think might be willing to negotiate
a political solution with you?
Ăcalan: None of them are ready. [Former Turkish president Turgut] Ăzal
wanted a political solution, but they [elements in the Turkish military
against a political solution] killed him. They also killed [former
gendarmerie forces commander EĆref] Bitlis.
MEQ: What would a political settlement mean for the future of Turkey?
Will Turkeyâs granting what you consider to be genuine democracy to all
its citizens solve its Kurdish problem and save the country, or would it
simply encourage more Kurdish demands and eventually break up Turkey?
Ăcalan: A dialogue between Turkey and the PKK followed by an agreement
would be good for Turkey and make it stronger. All I am asking for is
real democracy in Turkey. I am more Turkish than the Turkish leaders!
MEQ: How much has the PKK been hurt by Turkish military actions in
southeast Turkey and northwest Iraq in recent years? Is it true as the
Turks say that you have been marginalized?
Ăcalan: We donât have fighting in the towns, but our guerrillas are
stronger than before. We are fighting everywhere, even on the Black Sea.
It is just a Turkish tactic to say we are finished. Why was it necessary
just a few days ago to send 25,000 Turkish troops and 1,100 Village
Guards against a small PKK unit near Diyarbakır? We have become even
more powerful. Five days ago in Istanbul, 20,000 people made a
demonstration for us in Taksim [Square] and just yesterday in Gazi Osman
PaĆha [Istanbul]. If they really think the PKK is finished, well, let
them carry on.
MEQ: Are there any signs that the military leaders, the ultimate source
of authority in Turkey, are willing to consider a political solution to
the Kurdish problem?
Ăcalan: In secret they are saying they want it [discrete negotiations],
but not openly. All the Turkish army wants is to finish us. The key is
in the military.
MEQ: Is there anyone in the military who can bring peace? How about
Deputy Chief of Staff General Ăevik Bir?
Ăcalan: I am afraid he is playing a game like [former Turkish prime
minister Tansu] Ăiller. Ăevik Bir i Americaâs man in Turkey. If he
wanted to, he could bring a settlement very quickly.
MEQ: What happened to the 1996 agreement of cooperation you signed with
Dev Sol [a leftwing Turkish terrorist movement now called the
Revolutionary Peoples Liberation Army Front or DHKPC]?
Ăcalan: We tried, but since they killed some people in Turkey like
[prominent businessman Ăzdemir] Sabanci we cannot work with them. We
have no agreement with Dev Sol. It is opposing us on many fronts. Dev
Sol is an instrument of the Turkish police. It is the same situation as
with [Abdullah] Catlı [of Susurluk notoriety].[1] The Turkish police use
Dev Sol on the left and [used] Catlı on the right.
MEQ: What is the relationship between the PKK and the Islamists in
Turkey?
Ăcalan: There is no cooperation between us. Ăevik Bir is saying that
there is only propaganda.
THE PKK
MEQ: Whom does the PKK represent?
Ăcalan: Clearly, the PKK speaks for Turkeyâs Kurds. If anyone doubts
this, let them have fair, democratic elections and see what happens. But
the Turks are not even brave enough to consider the concept.
MEQ: Are there divisions within the PKK?
Ăcalan: We have suspicions regarding [PKK commander Ćemdin Sakık a.k.a.
Parmaksız] Zeki. Sometimes Zeki says we should not kill soldiers and
other times he wants to even kill civilians. The first time civilians
were killed in Turkey was by Zeki. We removed him from his duties.[2]
MEQ: How are you able to maintain control of your organization from what
appears to be this relatively isolated place?
Ăcalan: I keep in daily contact with my associates by telephone and
radio. Still, there are major organizational problems in running the PKK
and its related organizations abroad. The PKK is fighting a big war and
it is very difficult to control people. At any moment somebody could
stab you in the back. It is more difficult to change the traditional
Kurdish ways than to split the atom.
MEQ: At its fifth congress in January 1995, the PKK removed the hammer
and sickle from its flag and continued to deemphasize its earlier
Marxism. What do you say to those who say this was a cosmetic change and
that you are still a Marxist, a communist?
Ăcalan: This is just propaganda. It is not possible for us to be
communists. Why did the Soviet Union collapse and the United States has
not? It is because communism made the government everything, but the
human being nothing. The United States represents development.
MEQ: When will the next PKK congress be?
Ăcalan: At the end of 1998.
MEQ: What role will you and the PKK play in Turkey if the current
struggle comes to a negotiated end?
Ăcalan: We can play an active role. If there is a federal state, we will
want to run it. The PKK is the voice of the [Kurdish] people.
MEQ: Will you seek to play a role in Turkish politics?
Ăcalan: Yes, of course.
MEQ: How can the Kurds achieve greater unity?
Ăcalan: When the Turks stop interfering, Kurdish unity will be there.
The Turks say âlet one dog kill the otherâ when they deal with the
Kurds. The Kurdish National Congress will be a solution for the Kurdish
divisions.
MEQ: When will you create this congress?
Ăcalan: We are not very far from it. The PKK will be the biggest group
in it. Then the PUK [Jalal Talabaniâs Patriotic Union of Kurdistan]. The
KDP [Kurdistan Democratic Party of Barzani] is near. Also there are many
prominent Kurdish personalities like Ibrahim Ahmad and Mahmud Osman who
support it. Only [Kemal] Burkay, [the leader of the Kurdistan Socialist
Party (Turkey)] is not joining.
MEQ: What do you think of [the Iraqi Kurdish leaders] Barzani and
Talabani?
Ăcalan: There is a major difference between me and Barzani and Talabani.
The PKK is a new movement. Barzani and Talabani are like caricatures of
Saddam. Have you ever seen a more povertystricken policy than theirs?
Why did they have to kiss Saddam? Where are their principles? Barzani is
like a collaborator. When Iran asks Barzani to kill Iranian Kurds,
Barzani does so. You cannot call Barzaniâs movement a Kurdish movement.
MEQ: So who speaks for the Kurds? Who will negotiate for the Kurds?
Ăcalan: Barzani and Talabani are like feet or arms, but I am the main
head or mind. The United States should speak with me, the mind. I have
twentyfive years of experience.
MEQ: What happened to your agreement with Kemal Burkay in 1993?[3]
Ăcalan: It still stands. We follow it. There is no difference between
our views and Burkay.
MEQ: Would you be willing to let other Kurdish organizations play a
future political role in Turkey after the PKK reached a negotiated
settlement with Ankara?
Ăcalan: If I am the problem, Turkey should establish a dialogue with the
other Kurdish organizations that are out there.
MEQ: Whom do you have in mind, Serafettin Elçi [a longtime Turkish
politician in Turkey of Kurdish ethnic heritage] or HADEP [a legal
proKurdish party in Turkey]?
Ăcalan: Elçi is supported by virtually no one.
MEQ: What foreign support do you get?
Ăcalan: Of course, we would like the world to support us. If the United
States were objective, it must have a moral code, a sense of honor, and
support us. But if we wait for some government to help us, we will be
finished. The PKK is selfreliant. It is financed through voluntary
donations from Kurds, not through extortion or drug trafficking, as the
Turksâ propaganda claims. Turkey receives a great deal of foreign help
from many different sources to use against the Kurds. Turkey is like the
woman married to seven different men, satisfying them all at the same
time.
MEQ: In the time of Mulla Mustafa Barzani, Israel gave covert support to
the Kurds. Now, however, Turkey has close relations with Israel. Your
thoughts?
Ăcalan: The Turks made an agreement with Israel to kill Kurds. This time
the Turks are getting the green light from IsraelÍŸ earlier it was from
the United States.
MEQ: Your thoughts on the United States?
Ăcalan: The United States is a great power. It is a very objective
country, but it does not have positive knowledge about us. Turks look
upon the United States as a child beside their own thousandyearold
history of running their own empire. Before you kill somebody, you
should ask him. We donât want too much. I donât think the United States
and NATO will accept massacres against the Kurds. Why does the United
States become so concerned as soon as a few people are killed in Kosovo,
while it ignores that Kurdistan has become an extreme killing ground?
The recent visits of [assistant secretary of state for democracy, human
rights and labor John] Shattuck to Turkeyâs prisoners including Leyla
Zana is a positive development, but just stressing human rights is not
enough. The United States helped Ăiller without any conditions. The
Americans believed that Ăiller was one of them because she had a U.S.
passport and had been educated in the United States. The Turks killed
many Kurds under the cover of Ăiller. When Ăiller was killing those
people, she was sitting on Americaâs shoulders. Now the Turks are saying
Ăiller was responsible for Susurluk, that Ăiller is a spy for the
Americans. Itâs a big game. [laughs] This is also very dangerous
politics.
MEQ: What do you say to the U.S. charge that the PKK is a terrorist
organization?
Ăcalan: The Americans have a blind spot on the PKKÍŸ they act as Turkeyâs
mouthpiece. I am the real victim of terrorism. The United States is
hanging me without judging me. This is an ignorant, blind policy without
rational terms. It is extrajudicial killing. Let them bring me the
proof. Once Arafat and Mandela were called terrorists, but look at them
now. When I offer to negotiate, I am called weak, and when I show my
strength I am called a terrorist. This is enormously illogical. The PKK
has made mistakes. This is true. But compared to what Turkey has done to
the Kurds over the years, it should be obvious who is the real
terrorist. Susurluk has the facts. Everything is said in the Susurluk
report.
MEQ: What one message would you direct to Americans?
Ăcalan: [hesitates] The Kurds want the conditions the United States
wants for itselfâdemocracy, equality. We donât want anything else. Have
respect for life.
MEQ: Should the United States or the European Union be diplomatically
more aggressive on the Kurdish issue, perhaps as the United States has
been in the former Yugoslavia and Cyprus? For example, should they take
a more active role to bring about a ceasefire, then push for Government
of Turkey PKK negotiations?
Ăcalan: Of course, they shouldâitâs the only solution, but only if
America doesnât play games. Recent German willingness finally to talk to
the PKK is a good model. But Germany does not see itself as having an
international roleÍŸ the United States is the main protagonist. A
dialogue between the United States and the Kurds is most important, and
it should begin sooner rather than later. It would open the way to a
most important change in U.S. policy. This dialogue, by the way, would
be a risk not just for the United States but for me, too. It would
increase the number of my enemies. Maybe my health would do better if I
stayed away from the United States! [laughs]
MEQ: How many brothers and sisters do you have?
Ăcalan: I have two younger brothers, Osman [a highranking PKK commander]
and Mehmet. Mehmet lives in AdanaÍŸ Turkey arrested him when he tried to
leave the country. I have three sistersÍŸ two are older than I. They are
very simple people. One sister lives in Europe.
MEQ: And your parents?
Ăcalan: My mother died the same week that Ăzal died [in April 1993].
MEQ: What language do you speak best, Turkish or Kurdish?
Ăcalan: Naturally, I know Turkish better than Kurdish.
MEQ: When did you live in Ankara?
Ăcalan: I came to Ankara in 1966 and left in July 1978. I did not live
in one place in Ankara, but was moving around.
MEQ: What did you do during your Ankara years?
Ăcalan: I was a student. I studied in political science for four years
but not very seriously because I did not want to go to the military.
Normally I would have graduated in 1974, but I continued for another
four years to avoid military service. I spent many years in Ankara going
to the libraries and reading all the books on the Kurds. In the
beginning I was not a Kurdish nationalist. I did not accept so easily
being a Kurd. I fought within myself for a long time whether to be a
Turk or a Kurd. Later after my studies, I came to the conclusion I
should consider myself a Kurd.
[1] A Nov. 1996 traffic accident in the town of Susurluk uncovered how
the Turkish state, among other misdeeds, hired rightwing criminals on
the lam to murder extrajudicially hundreds of Turkish civilians of
Kurdish ethnic heritage in an attempt to silence their support for
Kurdish rights and the PKK. In exchange, the state turned a blind eye to
their drug trafficking and other criminal activities. For an account,
see James H. Meyer, âĂillerâs Scandals,â Middle East Quarterly, Sept.
1997, pp. 2930.
[2] Zeki defected to Masâud Barzaniâs Kurdistan Democratic Party, an
opponent of the PKK, just days after this interview, and shortly
afterwards was captured by Turkish commandos.
[3] In which the Kurdish factions agreed to respect each otherâs
existence, settle their differences peacefully, work toward establishing
a common front, and adopt a common approach toward the Republic of
Turkey.