💾 Archived View for gemini.ctrl-c.club › ~phoebos › logs › freenode-kisslinux-2019-10-07.txt captured on 2022-07-17 at 03:28:37.
⬅️ Previous capture (2021-12-17)
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2019-10-07T01:05:23 #kisslinux <konimex> retard: what do you mean by "least offensive" distros? and what are the examples of "more offensive" ones?
2019-10-07T06:55:05 #kisslinux <mahmudov> kernel build time with clang? against to gcc?
2019-10-07T08:01:54 #kisslinux <E5ten> No clue, I never compared
2019-10-07T08:02:03 #kisslinux <E5ten> And I'm not about to install gcc to find out lol
2019-10-07T08:05:06 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> mahmudov: Clang build of the kernel took longer and was bigger (System.map file was smaller with Clang though).
2019-10-07T08:05:30 #kisslinux <mahmudov> yes i saw your messages about size
2019-10-07T08:05:38 #kisslinux <mahmudov> just curious to time measuring
2019-10-07T08:06:01 #kisslinux <mahmudov> approx 2x times?
2019-10-07T08:08:40 #kisslinux <mahmudov> if you have logs or nvm
2019-10-07T08:09:02 #kisslinux <mahmudov> i'll try also..
2019-10-07T08:14:08 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Maybe an extra 5-10 minutes? I didn't do any proper timing but I've built 25~ kernels for KISS so I kinda know the compile time with GCC.
2019-10-07T08:14:16 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> I've found clang to be overall slower than gcc in my tests though.
2019-10-07T08:14:23 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> For some reason './configure' is really slow with LLVM/clang compared to GCC.
2019-10-07T08:14:39 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Sorry, my internet disconnected.
2019-10-07T08:20:04 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Meson's new version finally allows for optional gettext!
2019-10-07T08:20:09 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> One less patch to keep around.
2019-10-07T08:21:39 #kisslinux <E5ten> I just looked at the clang build script and saw it uses makefiles, I'd recommend using ninja for it, the difference in build time is ridiculous
2019-10-07T08:21:57 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> I didn't mean clang's build itself.
2019-10-07T08:22:08 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> I meant building anything using autotools with clang.
2019-10-07T08:22:18 #kisslinux <E5ten> I know, I just looked because it came up and saw that
2019-10-07T08:22:20 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> For some reason the configure stage when using clang is really slow.
2019-10-07T08:22:24 #kisslinux <E5ten> I didn't mean it was the answer to your other issue
2019-10-07T08:23:34 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Ah
2019-10-07T08:24:26 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> I need to fix our LLVM/Clang builds as they link to GCC for some reason.
2019-10-07T08:24:42 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> This involves adding compiler-rt from what I've read.
2019-10-07T08:24:49 #kisslinux <E5ten> libgcc_s when you want compiler-rt you mean?
2019-10-07T08:24:50 #kisslinux <E5ten> Yeah
2019-10-07T08:24:56 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Though compiler-rt depends on LLVM to build.
2019-10-07T08:25:01 #kisslinux <unternet> dylanaraps: what are your thoughts about https://github.com/brave/brave-browser ?
2019-10-07T08:25:02 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> So it's a catch 22.
2019-10-07T08:25:18 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> All browsers are terrible.
2019-10-07T08:25:59 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Whenever a new "Privacy respecting" browser comes out it just replaces Mozilla/Google with their own tracking.
2019-10-07T08:26:27 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Brave phones home to Brave (and Google).
2019-10-07T08:26:59 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Same goes for the LibreM phone.
2019-10-07T08:27:18 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Replaces google's cloud with theirs.
2019-10-07T08:27:23 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> No different really.
2019-10-07T08:27:38 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Something that actually respected your privacy wouldn't phone home at all.
2019-10-07T08:27:58 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> "You can turn it off" isn't an argument either.
2019-10-07T08:28:08 #kisslinux <unternet> I have mixed feelings about them. on the one hand, you're right, it makes connections to brave.com (I give them the benefit of the doubt of making those connections for updates [tracker lists etc])
2019-10-07T08:28:27 #kisslinux <E5ten> I think you can do compiler-rt standalone?
2019-10-07T08:28:48 #kisslinux <unternet> and they're working on this shady ad-replacing cryptocurrency scheme which is strange
2019-10-07T08:29:05 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> > Generally, you need to build LLVM/Clang in order to build compiler-rt
2019-10-07T08:29:09 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> http://compiler-rt.llvm.org/
2019-10-07T08:29:24 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> I think we can get around it by building compiler-rt _with_ LLVM at the same time.
2019-10-07T08:29:53 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Yes. Every browser is trying some alternate funding model for the web which I find plain dumb.
2019-10-07T08:29:57 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Just be a browser.
2019-10-07T08:29:59 #kisslinux <unternet> on the other they've been in the news several times now with things like exposing google's GDPR workarounds and other things
2019-10-07T08:30:14 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Yes but don't think that they have good intentions.
2019-10-07T08:30:30 #kisslinux <E5ten> Doing it that way definitely works, for my LLVM build I just do all the components I want together in one monolithic build
2019-10-07T08:30:51 #kisslinux <unternet> definitely in favour of the "just be a browser" philosophy
2019-10-07T08:30:57 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> I'll do LLVM+compiler-rt and then clang separate.
2019-10-07T08:31:30 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> I could very easily release KISS tarballs without GCC this way.
2019-10-07T08:31:36 #kisslinux <E5ten> libgcc_s also has unwinding stuff so if you want to have something that goes in place of that you'll have to enable libunwind too
2019-10-07T08:31:47 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> wew
2019-10-07T08:31:48 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Noted.
2019-10-07T08:33:47 #kisslinux <E5ten> And libstdc++ being part of gcc if you want to go without gcc you'll need libc++{abi,} too
2019-10-07T08:35:54 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> OK
2019-10-07T08:36:14 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> So llvm+compiler-rt+libc++ and then clang.
2019-10-07T08:36:25 #kisslinux <E5ten> Libunwind too
2019-10-07T08:36:34 #kisslinux <E5ten> And then yeah, should work
2019-10-07T08:36:42 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Will try.
2019-10-07T08:36:43 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Thanks
2019-10-07T08:37:17 #kisslinux <E5ten> In time when the clang integrated assembler has been made more compatible the kernel will be buildable entirely without GNU binutils
2019-10-07T08:37:20 #kisslinux <z3bra> oi
2019-10-07T08:37:46 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> The kernel still needs binutils huh.
2019-10-07T08:37:52 #kisslinux <E5ten> Just as
2019-10-07T08:38:05 #kisslinux <E5ten> LLVM's binutils work for the rest
2019-10-07T08:38:16 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Nice
2019-10-07T08:38:33 #kisslinux <E5ten> I also have a patch for building with byacc instead of GNU bison if you want
2019-10-07T08:39:20 #kisslinux <E5ten> Well, 2 patches, one for the latest release and a totally different one that'll be what's needed when the next kernel release comes
2019-10-07T08:39:34 #kisslinux <E5ten> Cuz the build system stuff around bison got changed since the last one
2019-10-07T08:41:09 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> The kernel in KISS is managed solely by the user so it might be worth putting these patches in a GitHub issue for clarity.
2019-10-07T08:41:46 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Is there any documentation for where to drop the compiler-rt and etc sources into LLVM's source?
2019-10-07T08:42:01 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> I found it a while ago but I can't seem to find it now.
2019-10-07T08:42:03 #kisslinux <E5ten> Use the github monorepo
2019-10-07T08:42:26 #kisslinux <E5ten> It's much better to work with than dropping other repos within the LLVM one and stuff
2019-10-07T08:43:09 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Do they release source tarballs though?
2019-10-07T08:43:13 #kisslinux <E5ten> Then you set LLVM_ENABLE_PROJECTS to a ; separated list of the projects you want to enable
2019-10-07T08:43:32 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> https://github.com/llvm/llvm-project/archive/llvmorg-9.0.0.tar.gz
2019-10-07T08:43:35 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> This?
2019-10-07T08:43:42 #kisslinux <E5ten> Yeah
2019-10-07T08:45:26 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> "-DLLVM_ENABLE_PROJECTS="compiler-rt;libcxx;libcxxabi;libunwind""
2019-10-07T08:45:36 #kisslinux <E5ten> Yep
2019-10-07T08:45:47 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> There's also: clang-tools-extra
2019-10-07T08:46:17 #kisslinux <E5ten> If anything it should go in a separate package even from clang
2019-10-07T08:46:22 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Yup
2019-10-07T08:46:29 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Doesn't look like anything essential.
2019-10-07T08:46:36 #kisslinux <E5ten> Yeah
2019-10-07T08:48:36 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> OK. Downloading source now.
2019-10-07T08:48:50 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Current LLVM size: 212.1M total
2019-10-07T08:49:01 #kisslinux <E5ten> I think you should disable COMPILER_RT_EXCLUDE_ATOMIC_BUILTIN because while it says "these should normally be provided by a shared library" I only know of libatomic from gcc as an option for that so to avoid gcc you probably want that builtin in compiler-rt
2019-10-07T08:50:16 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> "-DCOMPILER_RT_EXCLUDE_ATOMIC_BUILTIN=OFF"?
2019-10-07T08:50:26 #kisslinux <E5ten> Yeah
2019-10-07T08:50:56 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> This download will be large as it's a git snapshot.
2019-10-07T08:51:16 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> I might just grab the individual release tarballs and combine them at extraction.
2019-10-07T08:51:58 #kisslinux <E5ten> The monorepo is less than a month from being considered the canonical upstream so imo it should be preferred
2019-10-07T08:52:46 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Release tarballs will be made regardless no?
2019-10-07T08:52:53 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> What about lld?
2019-10-07T08:54:37 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> lld is broken with musl iirc.
2019-10-07T08:54:39 #kisslinux <E5ten> For individual builds it doesn't really matter, but in terms of layout the build system will be better tested and paid attention to in the side-by-side LLVM_ENABLE_PROJECTS form than in the individual parts in subdirs within LLVM form
2019-10-07T08:54:57 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> I'll still be using LLVM_ENABLE_PROJECTS.
2019-10-07T08:55:20 #kisslinux <E5ten> Then yeah should be fine
2019-10-07T08:56:10 #kisslinux <E5ten> So they each go side-by-side, the projects thing doesn't work if you put them in the llvm subdirs like tools and stuff, the old build layout
2019-10-07T08:57:32 #kisslinux <E5ten> Some options that should be on to keep this gcc-free, LLVM_ENABLE_LIBCXX, LIB{CXX{,ABI},UNWIND}_USE_COMPILER_RT, LIBCXXABI_USE_LLVM_UNWINDER, COMPILER_RT_USE_BUILTINS_LIBRARY
2019-10-07T08:59:42 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Added.
2019-10-07T09:03:09 #kisslinux <E5ten> This meson gettext thing is great I can remove "sed -i '/<some gettext thing>/d' <path to meson.build>" from so many PKGBUILDs now :)
2019-10-07T09:03:29 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Yeah
2019-10-07T09:06:43 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> OK. Looks like Clang has to be built in here too.
2019-10-07T09:06:46 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> > No target "clang"
2019-10-07T09:07:06 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> (From compiler-rt portion of configure)
2019-10-07T09:08:23 #kisslinux <E5ten> If you're building clang with it CLANG_DEFAULT_{STDLIB=libc++,RTLIB=compiler-rt}
2019-10-07T09:08:36 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Noted.
2019-10-07T09:10:23 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> CMake Warning:
2019-10-07T09:10:25 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Manually-specified variables were not used by the project:
2019-10-07T09:10:27 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> CLANG_DEFAULT_STDLIB
2019-10-07T09:10:29 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Interesting.
2019-10-07T09:10:43 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> It's building now though.
2019-10-07T09:10:51 #kisslinux <E5ten> Oops, CXX_STDLIB
2019-10-07T09:11:40 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> "-DCLANG_DEFAULT_CXX_STDLIB=libc++" or "-DCLANG_CXX_STDLIB=libc++"?
2019-10-07T09:12:01 #kisslinux <E5ten> The first one
2019-10-07T09:15:23 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Done
2019-10-07T09:15:30 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> [30/3920] Building CXX object lib/Support/CMakeFiles/LLVMSupport.dir/DataExtractor.cpp.o
2019-10-07T09:16:05 #kisslinux <E5ten> Nice
2019-10-07T09:16:49 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Directory layout is this actually:
2019-10-07T09:16:50 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> -> cd llvm/
2019-10-07T09:16:53 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> -> ls
2019-10-07T09:17:13 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> build libcxx llvm
2019-10-07T09:17:13 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> clang libcxxabi
2019-10-07T09:17:13 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> compiler-rt libunwind
2019-10-07T09:17:13 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Wouldn't work if I copied the llvm monorepo layout.
2019-10-07T09:17:49 #kisslinux <E5ten> That is the monorepo layout except the top level dir "llvm" would be "llvm-project"
2019-10-07T09:18:32 #kisslinux <E5ten> The real llvm dir isn't the top level one those are all in it's the second one that's next to all the other projects
2019-10-07T09:25:14 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Will build this later.
2019-10-07T09:25:18 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> No time right now.
2019-10-07T09:25:43 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> It's here though: https://github.com/kisslinux/repo/tree/master/testing/llvm
2019-10-07T09:27:11 #kisslinux <konimex> so you can't build separate clang anymore
2019-10-07T09:27:13 #kisslinux <konimex> yikes
2019-10-07T09:27:40 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> I guess not as compiler-rt complains and the build aborts.
2019-10-07T09:30:01 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> If you use libgcc (as KISS does now) it can still be separate.
2019-10-07T09:30:01 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> KISS only builds LLVM/Clang.
2019-10-07T09:30:01 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> No libunwind, compiler-rt etc.
2019-10-07T09:30:01 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Though it'd be nice to have llvm/clang be standalone so a GCC-less system is possible.
2019-10-07T09:30:02 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> The only downside is llvm + clang being combined.
2019-10-07T09:30:02 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> The source sizes for compiler-rt, libunwind etc are 1MB~ each only.
2019-10-07T09:30:03 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Which amounts to nothing when you compare them to the size of LLVM/Clang's sources.
2019-10-07T09:31:58 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> What I really want is for GCC to be able to build rust so I can remove LLVM/Clang entirely.
2019-10-07T09:32:25 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Though it looks like removing GCC/binutils is the easier option HAH
2019-10-07T09:32:46 #kisslinux <E5ten> And also the superior option 😏
2019-10-07T09:33:16 #kisslinux <E5ten> Yeah now that I think about it since the kernel can be clanged now and kiss doesn't use glibc there's really nothing that needs gcc
2019-10-07T09:33:32 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Yup
2019-10-07T09:33:37 #kisslinux <E5ten> Elfutils/libelf I guess but you can just use the elftoolchain alternative
2019-10-07T09:33:48 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> We don't use elfutils.
2019-10-07T09:33:53 #kisslinux <konimex> well gcc-rust is kicking off again though it won't be an option until at least 5 more years I guess
2019-10-07T09:34:05 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> We use: https://fossies.org/linux/misc/old/libelf-0.8.13.tar.gz
2019-10-07T09:34:17 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> elfutils is "hostile" towards musl.
2019-10-07T09:34:19 #kisslinux <E5ten> If lld works then the only binutil you'd have to keep is as for kernel builds
2019-10-07T09:34:32 #kisslinux <E5ten> They're hostile towards clang too
2019-10-07T09:34:32 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> KISS uses no ripped out glibc code to function (unlike void/alpine).
2019-10-07T09:34:48 #kisslinux <E5ten> What's that libelf?
2019-10-07T09:34:57 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> It's the pre-elfutils libelf.
2019-10-07T09:35:17 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> > 528.0K
2019-10-07T09:35:24 #kisslinux <E5ten> elftoolchain is actively developed and it's libelf works for objtool in the kernel at least
2019-10-07T09:35:27 #kisslinux <konimex> probably because KISS doesn't have packages that needed stuff like obstack or argp
2019-10-07T09:35:42 #kisslinux <konimex> or I am misremembering
2019-10-07T09:35:45 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> ie elfutils
2019-10-07T09:35:52 #kisslinux <E5ten> And it has equivalents for a fair amount of the elfutils themselves
2019-10-07T09:36:04 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> and dracut
2019-10-07T09:37:01 #kisslinux <E5ten> Wait what's the ie referring to I'm confused
2019-10-07T09:37:04 #kisslinux <konimex> all Red Hat project
2019-10-07T09:37:11 #kisslinux <E5ten> Ah
2019-10-07T09:37:25 #kisslinux <E5ten> Didn't know elfutils was red hat, makes tons of sense
2019-10-07T09:37:36 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Yup
2019-10-07T09:37:55 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Our libelf + binutils provides everything actually.
2019-10-07T09:38:05 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Looking at: https://github.com/elftoolchain/elftoolchain
2019-10-07T09:38:51 #kisslinux <E5ten> Sure but your libelf is from 2009 and will never see further development while elftoolchain is maintained
2019-10-07T09:40:23 #kisslinux <konimex> I don't know, man, for me "maintenance" can be a "buzzword" at this point
2019-10-07T09:41:21 #kisslinux <E5ten> Do you mean it pretty much isn't needed or that something can be called maintained while barely being maintained?
2019-10-07T09:41:38 #kisslinux <konimex> runit's last release is in... I don't know, 2012? 2014? and it's pretty much solid
2019-10-07T09:41:46 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> If the kernel didn't need it KISS wouldn't need it.
2019-10-07T09:42:01 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Openbox too (2015).
2019-10-07T09:42:08 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> libelf is only needed on KISS for the kernel.
2019-10-07T09:42:27 #kisslinux <E5ten> Fair enough
2019-10-07T09:42:52 #kisslinux <E5ten> Since it's only a build dep why don't you just make it statically part of the kernel build and not even a package?
2019-10-07T09:43:33 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Kernels aren't handled by the package manager in KISS.
2019-10-07T09:43:47 #kisslinux <E5ten> Oh
2019-10-07T09:43:50 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> You do it yourself.
2019-10-07T09:44:27 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Just 'make', 'make install' and then updating your bootloader config.
2019-10-07T09:44:46 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> You configure it yourself.
2019-10-07T09:45:24 #kisslinux <E5ten> I figured you'd configure it yourself but I thought it'd be like you make a .config and then give it as a source to the kiss package or something
2019-10-07T09:46:50 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> I don't think it makes sense for it to be managed by the package manager.
2019-10-07T09:47:17 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Either we'd have a number of linuxXX.X packages are I'd have to add support to the package manager for installing multiple versions of a package at once.
2019-10-07T09:47:31 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> This is the simplest way.
2019-10-07T09:47:31 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> 'make' and 'make install'.
2019-10-07T09:47:59 #kisslinux <E5ten> Fair enough, that makes sense
2019-10-07T09:48:29 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> I'm against automating specific parts as I think it's better they be done by hand.
2019-10-07T09:48:42 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> I don't want the package manager to try and update your grub config for example.
2019-10-07T09:49:20 #kisslinux <E5ten> If my package manager has grub on my system it clearly hasn't been listening to me :p
2019-10-07T09:51:06 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Grub is the default on KISS as it's a single package providing both EFI/BIOS boot support.
2019-10-07T09:51:06 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> You can install whatever bootloader you like though.
2019-10-07T09:51:59 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> There's no lock-in as none of KISS' tooling expects grub. ;)
2019-10-07T09:51:59 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> I personally want to swap to lilo.
2019-10-07T09:54:35 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Fucking with the bootloader afterwards can be error prone though so I'm reluctant to swap thus far. :P
2019-10-07T09:54:35 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> I really can't be bothered booting a live-usb to repair it.
2019-10-07T09:54:35 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> lilo needs these too: bin86
2019-10-07T09:54:35 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> sharutils
2019-10-07T09:54:36 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> All bootloaders suck really.
2019-10-07T09:55:30 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> grub doesn't need any special dependencies, people are familiar with it and the single package can support EFI/BIOS at the same time.
2019-10-07T09:56:20 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Those are the reasons it's the default.
2019-10-07T09:56:20 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> It's a bloated mess regardless though.
2019-10-07T09:56:31 #kisslinux <konimex> also its setup is pretty much hands-off, grub-install and grub-mkconfig and you're done
2019-10-07T09:56:37 #kisslinux <konimex> but no argument about the bloat
2019-10-07T09:56:43 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> gummiboot/lilo would've been a nice pair but gummiboot was eaten by the systemd machine.
2019-10-07T09:57:02 #kisslinux <E5ten> Despite having a problem with systemd I don't really have any problem with systemd-boot
2019-10-07T09:57:10 #kisslinux <konimex> iirc it is possible to install systemd-boot without systemd itself
2019-10-07T09:57:25 #kisslinux <konimex> gentoo has the ebuild for it
2019-10-07T09:57:38 #kisslinux <E5ten> I mean obviously it doesn't fit the use case because it doesn't so bios
2019-10-07T09:58:02 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> I'm still angry that eudev/udev are mandatory on Linux :(
2019-10-07T09:58:22 #kisslinux <E5ten> Yeah I think that's true
2019-10-07T09:58:33 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Nothing stops a user from using it though.
2019-10-07T09:58:49 #kisslinux <E5ten> With the right build options I'm pretty sure you can just build standalone systemd-boot from the systemd source
2019-10-07T09:58:50 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Grub is just the default.
2019-10-07T09:59:02 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> I'd rather not pull the systemd source at all.
2019-10-07T09:59:23 #kisslinux <E5ten> The only problem is it requires GNU objcopy :(((
2019-10-07T10:00:39 #kisslinux <konimex> elftoolchain doesn't have objcopy?
2019-10-07T10:00:48 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Software sucks overall now really.
2019-10-07T10:00:50 #kisslinux <konimex> wait, it doesn't have as too, right?
2019-10-07T10:01:32 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> The ideal bootloader for EFI is no bootloader imo.
2019-10-07T10:02:27 #kisslinux <E5ten> So I just occasionally boot up an arch USB to use bootctl from there to update my systemd-boot
2019-10-07T10:03:36 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> What distro are you running?
2019-10-07T10:04:21 #kisslinux <konimex> well EFISTUB is a thing
2019-10-07T10:05:14 #kisslinux <E5ten> Cuz I'm unwilling to use GNU objcopy to build systemd-boot on my machine
2019-10-07T10:05:14 #kisslinux <E5ten> I've been kinda wanting to look into ditching eudev but I don't know how
2019-10-07T10:05:15 #kisslinux <E5ten> I've been kinda wanting to look into ditching eudev but I don't know how
2019-10-07T10:05:17 #kisslinux <E5ten> I've been kinda wanting to look into ditching eudev but I don't know how
2019-10-07T10:05:26 #kisslinux <E5ten> I mean in terms of modules I'm fine cuz everything is builtin
2019-10-07T10:05:50 #kisslinux <E5ten> But when I've tried to turn it off shit just doesn't work
2019-10-07T10:05:50 #kisslinux <E5ten> Cuz I'm unwilling to use GNU objcopy to build systemd-boot on my machine
2019-10-07T10:06:01 #kisslinux <E5ten> Its objcopy doesn't work for it sadly
2019-10-07T10:06:13 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> I've tried ditching eudev.
2019-10-07T10:06:23 #kisslinux <E5ten> Artix but I rebuild pretty much all my packages locally with heavy modification
2019-10-07T10:06:36 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Only issue is Xorg.
2019-10-07T10:07:03 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Red Hat maintain Xorg, Wayland, libinput, etc so they've stopped maintaining the xf86-input drivers.
2019-10-07T10:07:38 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> The old input drivers have a dependency on udev too now (through evdev) (I patched it out).
2019-10-07T10:08:05 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Still couldn't get Xorg to detect my input devices though.
2019-10-07T10:08:22 #kisslinux <E5ten> I should start by eliminating libeudev deps anyway
2019-10-07T10:08:39 #kisslinux <E5ten> No point making stuff work without the daemon running if I have to keep the lib anyway
2019-10-07T10:08:53 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> The only mandatory udev dependency on KISS is libinput.
2019-10-07T10:09:27 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Though this does require Xorg to be built with udev support.
2019-10-07T10:09:42 #kisslinux <E5ten> Yeah but I haven't bothered eliminating it as a dep for my locally rebuilt packages cuz removing it wasn't on my radar
2019-10-07T10:10:12 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> I've tried swapping to the xf86-input drivers and removing eudev entirely but Xorg then fails to detect my input devices.
2019-10-07T10:10:41 #kisslinux <E5ten> Like synaptics and evdev?
2019-10-07T10:10:54 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Yes
2019-10-07T10:11:21 #kisslinux <E5ten> Maybe it's possible to manually tell it your input devices?
2019-10-07T10:11:32 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Still wouldn't work with those.
2019-10-07T10:11:40 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> The libinput maintainer is also the maintainer of all of the xf86-input drivers fyi
2019-10-07T10:11:57 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> It's a planned obsolescence.
2019-10-07T10:12:14 #kisslinux <E5ten> But what have they actually done to them that makes it not work?
2019-10-07T10:12:28 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> This exists but it's sadly non-functional now: https://github.com/jcnelson/vdev
2019-10-07T10:12:53 #kisslinux <E5ten> What about mdev?
2019-10-07T10:12:54 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> evdev depends on udev now.
2019-10-07T10:12:58 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Not sure if my patch did anything other than ripping out that code.
2019-10-07T10:13:06 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> It's more the libudev portion.
2019-10-07T10:13:17 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> The kernel does most of the device heavy lifting nowadays.
2019-10-07T10:13:17 #kisslinux <E5ten> Oh
2019-10-07T10:13:47 #kisslinux <E5ten> Where's the patch?
2019-10-07T10:13:53 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> The kernel does it as they no longer trust the udev developers.
2019-10-07T10:14:05 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> It's an interesting mailing list thread.
2019-10-07T10:14:21 #kisslinux <E5ten> With good reason
2019-10-07T10:14:53 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Of course.
2019-10-07T10:14:57 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> 2 secs
2019-10-07T10:15:01 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Uploading the patch.
2019-10-07T10:15:19 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> https://gist.githubusercontent.com/dylanaraps/67648291e2e37ddc41456a9c85df5b44/raw/50a8d2b7bc95d4856e05cd59cae54cde4bb2a197/gistfile1.txt
2019-10-07T10:16:18 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> It's fo xf86-input-evdev.
2019-10-07T10:16:18 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> for*
2019-10-07T10:16:34 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Look at the original commit though: https://github.com/freedesktop/xorg-xf86-input-evdev/commit/bc8997e8120cc8d4f33f44e0734fa488f9fef3b0
2019-10-07T10:16:44 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Fix bug when Xorg uses udev by linking to udev.
2019-10-07T10:16:53 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> 10/10
2019-10-07T10:18:15 #kisslinux <E5ten> Fantastic
2019-10-07T10:18:57 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Yeah, my patch just returns "FALSE".
2019-10-07T10:19:13 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> I may need to go through old commits and see what it did pre-udev.
2019-10-07T10:20:03 #kisslinux <E5ten> Is it possible that it could still work fine if it says no to "deviceisvirtual" for all devices?
2019-10-07T10:20:23 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Dunno, that's what I want to verify.
2019-10-07T10:21:38 #kisslinux <E5ten> What does util-linux lose when it isn't linked with libudev?
2019-10-07T10:22:41 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> No idea.
2019-10-07T10:23:48 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Haven't noticed anything different.
2019-10-07T10:23:48 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Everything works.
2019-10-07T10:23:48 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Found the commit: https://github.com/freedesktop/xorg-xf86-input-evdev/commit/683a55e504f4fc2d1c847c54986439a0c61b2f20#diff-04870ce6edab9fb1c939a975bd286969
2019-10-07T10:23:48 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> > Use udev to check for the device's sysfs path
2019-10-07T10:23:48 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> udev from day 1.
2019-10-07T10:24:19 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> It returns 'FALSE' though.
2019-10-07T10:24:27 #kisslinux <E5ten> Nice
2019-10-07T10:25:20 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> I guess the problem is whether or not my devices are classified as virtual...
2019-10-07T10:25:29 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> > This property can then be used to determine if
2019-10-07T10:25:32 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> there are any real devices connected, allowing the desktop environment to
2019-10-07T10:25:37 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> e.g. turn off the touchpad whenever there's a mouse attached.
2019-10-07T10:25:46 #kisslinux <E5ten> I'm spooked my util-linux things won't be able to use PARTUUID without libudev but I guess I'll find out
2019-10-07T10:25:59 #kisslinux <E5ten> Nothing I'd really need
2019-10-07T10:26:08 #kisslinux <E5ten> In terms of what you said about evdev
2019-10-07T10:26:21 #kisslinux <E5ten> Not the PARTUUID stuff, I'd be very unhappy to lose that
2019-10-07T10:30:35 #kisslinux <E5ten> PARTUUID still works we good
2019-10-07T10:32:56 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Nice
2019-10-07T10:35:32 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> What's even sadder is that Firefox on OpenBSD requires dbus.
2019-10-07T10:35:55 #kisslinux <E5ten> I'll never be rid of dbus cuz I like iwd too much
2019-10-07T10:36:22 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> I'm tempted to fork it and make it use UNIX sockets or netlink or etc instead.
2019-10-07T10:36:48 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> All it replaces is wpa_supplicant right?
2019-10-07T10:36:57 #kisslinux <E5ten> It does DHCP too now
2019-10-07T10:37:05 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> ooo
2019-10-07T10:37:05 #kisslinux <E5ten> Optionally
2019-10-07T10:37:07 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> OK
2019-10-07T10:37:09 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> More tempted now.
2019-10-07T10:37:14 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Handles wired devices too?
2019-10-07T10:37:28 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> iirc I saw support in the configure script last I checked.
2019-10-07T10:37:49 #kisslinux <E5ten> And it calls resolvconf or systemd-resolved depending on your config for you to do the DNS things
2019-10-07T10:37:57 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> OK. Now I'll brb. :P
2019-10-07T10:37:57 #kisslinux <E5ten> Yeah it has a second daemon called ead for wired
2019-10-07T11:00:21 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> -> grep -i dbus src/* | wc -l
2019-10-07T11:00:22 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> 916
2019-10-07T11:00:24 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> oof
2019-10-07T11:00:35 #kisslinux <E5ten> Yikes
2019-10-07T11:03:30 #kisslinux <E5ten> So what happens if I build xorg without udev?
2019-10-07T11:09:46 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> It won't use udev to discover devices.
2019-10-07T11:12:32 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> -> /usr/lib/iwd/iwd -v
2019-10-07T11:12:34 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> 0.19
2019-10-07T11:12:36 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> I got iwd to build without dbus.
2019-10-07T11:14:10 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Missing some kernel stuff though.
2019-10-07T11:14:16 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Recompiling my kernel now.
2019-10-07T11:22:37 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=FSF-GNU-Relationship-Questioned
2019-10-07T11:22:40 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> oof
2019-10-07T11:22:42 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> > The FSF Is Re-Evaluating Its Relationship With The GNU
2019-10-07T11:25:48 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> -> /usr/lib/iwd/iwd
2019-10-07T11:25:50 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Wireless daemon version 0.19
2019-10-07T11:25:52 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Skipping optional configuration file /etc/iwd/main.conf
2019-10-07T11:25:54 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Failed to create /var/lib/iwd/
2019-10-07T11:25:56 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Further along.
2019-10-07T11:26:10 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> > Failed to initialize D-Bus
2019-10-07T11:26:36 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> So it at the very least compiles without dbus.
2019-10-07T11:28:51 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> > l_error("Failed to open generic netlink socket");
2019-10-07T11:28:55 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> This is promising.
2019-10-07T11:31:59 #kisslinux <konimex> yikes, is Stallman still in control of GNU?
2019-10-07T11:36:37 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Yes
2019-10-07T11:36:41 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Last I read.
2019-10-07T11:36:53 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> This is too calculated...
2019-10-07T11:48:09 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> konimex: thoughts on this: To remove the 'rm -rf "$1/usr/share/info"` and etc in each build script, move this to the package manager and expose 'KISS_KEEP_INFO' to control whether or not these files are kept in built packages.
2019-10-07T11:48:17 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Will be very simple to add.
2019-10-07T11:49:05 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> KISS_KEEP_INFO, KISS_KEEP_MAN, KISS_KEEP_GETTEXT and a KISS_KEEP_JUNK to catch everything else for example.
2019-10-07T11:49:49 #kisslinux <konimex> looks good to me, what's the default for KEEP_MAN though?
2019-10-07T11:50:16 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> To keep man pages.
2019-10-07T11:50:25 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> The rest will be to remove.
2019-10-07T11:51:41 #kisslinux <konimex> alright, looks fine to me, no one use info outside of GNU and gettext stuff is useless without... gettext
2019-10-07T11:52:10 #kisslinux <konimex> man, software should be autodetecting them already so the package manager doesn't do it for them
2019-10-07T11:52:16 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Yup.
2019-10-07T11:52:29 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> All a user has to do to get gettext working is to install it and rebuild packages fyi.
2019-10-07T11:52:42 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> I fixed all packages to auto detect gettext.
2019-10-07T11:53:11 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> (Then set 'KISS_KEEP_GETTEXT' to '1')
2019-10-07T11:57:58 #kisslinux <konimex> any packages still installing gettext stuff no matter what with --disable-nls ?
2019-10-07T11:58:05 #kisslinux <konimex> s/with/without
2019-10-07T11:58:08 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Nope
2019-10-07T11:58:11 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Fixed them all.
2019-10-07T12:10:18 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> https://github.com/kisslinux/kiss/pull/61/files
2019-10-07T12:10:30 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> I wonder if a set of configurable 'rm' paths is better.
2019-10-07T12:10:42 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> 'KISS_KEEP=/usr/share/info:/usr/share/doc'
2019-10-07T12:10:57 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Defaults to 'KISS_KEEP=/usr/share/man'
2019-10-07T12:11:17 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> OR
2019-10-07T12:11:49 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> 'KISS_RM=/usr/share/info:/usr/share/doc'
2019-10-07T12:11:51 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Dunno.
2019-10-07T12:11:57 #kisslinux <konimex> depends on what PREFIX user set, actually
2019-10-07T12:12:21 #kisslinux <konimex> usually /usr, but since it's the package manager we're talking about here, can't be too sure
2019-10-07T12:12:36 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Will be: "$pkg_dir/$1/usr/etc/etc/etc".
2019-10-07T12:12:43 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Could do a 'find' for 'share/doc' for example.
2019-10-07T12:14:31 #kisslinux <konimex> that works too
2019-10-07T12:15:01 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> 'find -delete' works here too.
2019-10-07T12:51:14 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> https://github.com/kisslinux/kiss/pull/61/files
2019-10-07T12:51:20 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Reduced its size by 40 or so lines.
2019-10-07T12:51:24 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> It's more general now.
2019-10-07T12:52:42 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> The user can define a list of deletions from packages.
2019-10-07T12:54:17 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> (Path entries can be both '/usr/share/man' or 'usr/share/man').
2019-10-07T12:54:40 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> We pass './$path' to 'rm' so in the case of '/path' it becomes './/path' which is still fine.
2019-10-07T12:57:44 #kisslinux <konimex> that looks good
2019-10-07T12:58:58 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> This can be used to fix a conflict as a one off too.
2019-10-07T12:59:15 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> KISS_RM=/usr/bin/conflict kiss b pkg
2019-10-07T12:59:17 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> heh
2019-10-07T13:01:09 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Time to write a man page too. Need to document all of the environment variables.
2019-10-07T13:39:21 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Pushed the new package manager version.
2019-10-07T13:39:28 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Time to clean the build files.
2019-10-07T14:06:46 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Purge complete from the official repositories.
2019-10-07T14:45:57 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> o/
2019-10-07T14:46:21 #kisslinux <iAndrewT> hello!
2019-10-07T14:46:58 #kisslinux <iAndrewT> i think there's a correlation between hacktoberfest running and my contributions to open source :P
2019-10-07T14:47:32 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> lol
2019-10-07T14:47:44 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> I still don't have my t-shirt from last year.
2019-10-07T14:48:08 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> I shipped it to relatives in Athens and it's sitting there if they haven't binned it.
2019-10-07T14:48:32 #kisslinux <iAndrewT> rip
2019-10-07T14:48:56 #kisslinux <iAndrewT> i've resolved #1264 (interface selection on macOS), about to send a PR
2019-10-07T14:52:03 #kisslinux <iAndrewT> on neofetch that is
2019-10-07T14:52:41 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Yup
2019-10-07T14:52:44 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Looking now.
2019-10-07T14:53:31 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Is there not a way to do it like on Linux?
2019-10-07T14:53:36 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> ie it detects the current device?
2019-10-07T14:57:29 #kisslinux <raph_ael> dylanaraps: time to get back to Athens then :)
2019-10-07T14:58:35 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> heh
2019-10-07T14:58:39 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Maybe over Winter
2019-10-07T14:58:45 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Don't like the 6 hour bus ride.
2019-10-07T14:59:02 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Torture
2019-10-07T14:59:09 #kisslinux <raph_ael> I imagine
2019-10-07T14:59:16 #kisslinux <raph_ael> you live in Greece ?
2019-10-07T14:59:44 #kisslinux <raph_ael> I remember doing Paris/Warsaw and Paris/Praha by bus, 25h hours each
2019-10-07T14:59:46 #kisslinux <raph_ael> horrible
2019-10-07T15:00:18 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Yeah
2019-10-07T15:00:31 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> I moved from Australia.
2019-10-07T15:00:38 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Plane flight with stopover was 40 hours.
2019-10-07T15:01:27 #kisslinux <raph_ael> you took micro local air companies ? :)
2019-10-07T15:01:33 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Nope
2019-10-07T15:01:51 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Australia is just really far away from everything.
2019-10-07T15:02:16 #kisslinux <raph_ael> I wouldn't have imagine so long
2019-10-07T15:02:29 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> 8 hours was a stopover in Singapore.
2019-10-07T15:03:01 #kisslinux <raph_ael> in the 80s Paris/Beijing took me 21h which was already awful
2019-10-07T15:04:11 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Ouch
2019-10-07T15:04:16 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> I smoke too so it was hell.
2019-10-07T15:18:27 #kisslinux <raph_ael> 40h without smoking, it would have been a pain for me too :)
2019-10-07T16:53:47 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Should the package manager automatically handle patches?
2019-10-07T16:53:55 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Something I've been thinking about.
2019-10-07T16:54:25 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> This will be tiny code-wise.
2019-10-07T16:59:16 #kisslinux <paradigm> The main reason I keep Gentoo around is to build/maintain software with my custom patches applied. At least there it's quite useful. I know there was talk of adding an equivalent to USE flags to KISS, but I didn't catch where that settled. If a USE flag equivalent has been or is planned to be implemented, patch support would make a lot of sense as well.
2019-10-07T17:01:11 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> I'm just talking about any patches defined as a source being automatically applied. Right now an explicit 'patch -p1 < file.patch' is needed for each one.
2019-10-07T17:01:49 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> USE flags equivalent in KISS is your own repository with your own fork of a package. (It's as simple as 'cp -r $(kiss s pkg_name) myrepo/').
2019-10-07T17:02:29 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> USE flags are not a well written or implemented feature in Gentoo. Their ebuild files are a mess.
2019-10-07T17:02:45 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> A lot of the ebuilds I've looked at are larger than KISS' package manager.
2019-10-07T17:04:51 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> This feature I'm talking about is an addition of 4 lines of code.
2019-10-07T17:07:33 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Basically: https://gist.githubusercontent.com/dylanaraps/b9f939a19f1d127edba9e5078daa57d6/raw/18724151dd051cb01aab188f45b720e4cbbd9983/gistfile1.txt
2019-10-07T17:21:39 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> paradigm: Little larger than 4 lines as I moved it to a function and made it "smarter". Still small code-wise though. https://github.com/kisslinux/kiss/pull/62/files
2019-10-07T17:22:54 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> -> find . -name sources -exec grep .patch {} + | wc -l
2019-10-07T17:22:56 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> 43
2019-10-07T17:23:04 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> There are 43 patches in the official repositories.
2019-10-07T17:23:31 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> So this allows for the removal of every 'patch -p1 < file.patch' from the build scripts basically.
2019-10-07T17:23:43 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Still thinking about whether I should merge this or not.
2019-10-07T18:19:26 #kisslinux <paradigm> Reads as a wash to me, honestly.
2019-10-07T18:19:35 #kisslinux <paradigm> I'd be content either way
2019-10-07T18:20:13 #kisslinux <paradigm> build definitions will be slightly smaller without having to list out the patch lines, but you lose some explicitness.
2019-10-07T18:42:59 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> My thoughts exactly.
2019-10-07T18:43:12 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Leaving it as-is allows for conditional patches too.
2019-10-07T20:31:27 #kisslinux <iAndrewT> @dylanaraps sorry realised what time it was here (2am), it's probably easy to do for linux and other OSes, but it relies on a default interface name being set, which could be anything
2019-10-07T20:42:08 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> I meant the other way around. Making it auto detect on macOS too.
2019-10-07T20:42:15 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> There's no rush :)
2019-10-07T20:51:05 #kisslinux <iAndrewT> ah i think i've found a way
2019-10-07T20:51:12 #kisslinux <iAndrewT> i'll do it after work
2019-10-07T20:51:51 #kisslinux <iAndrewT> not sure if its default interface, but i've at least got all interfaces with IPv4 addresses (and i'll exclude lo0, loopback)
2019-10-07T20:53:43 #kisslinux <iAndrewT> wait, macOS can get the default one detected in the same way as linux
2019-10-07T20:55:26 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Neat!