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Conversations with a Satanist
Tommy Savage
? 1993 Tommy Savage
CONTENTS
Preface 3
1. What is Satanism? 5
2. America - Christian Country 13
3. Common misconceptions and outright lies 21
4. Who gets the credit, God or man? 33
5. Biblical Scripture 41
6. What is evil? 57
7. Masturbation and the fear of sex 66
8. What about love? 81
9. Christian [In]tolerance & a lesson in semantics 87
10. Am I a Satanist? 101
11. Why become a Satanist? 112
12. Some theories on Satan 120
13. On the lighter side 128
14. Satanic organizations 132
15. Selected readings 135
PREFACE
This book contains actual conversations conducted on a computer
bulletin board service. The names of the individuals involved have been
changed, not in order to protect them, but to insure that I won't have to ask
their permission or pay them .
Satan has been blamed for everything that has gone wrong in the world
for the last 2,000 years. He is the scapegoat for all the world's problems.
For every thought that goes against the principles and tenets set forth by
mainstream Judeo-Christian society, for every action commited by man that
he can not, or will not accept responsibility for, Satan has been held
accountable. There was a time [not too long ago in fact] when those who
suffered from mental illness were said to be possessed by the Devil.
'The Devil made me do it' is a common defense [or lack of one] for
criminals and other undesirables who are unable [or unwilling] to take
responsibility for their own actions. He has been used to scare people into
following an outdated and outmoded religion. Without the threat of being
eternally damned to the unspeakable tortures and agonies in the fiery pit of
Hell, Christianity would not have been as successful as it is, and the Church
would have been out of business a long time ago. So how does the Church
treat the person responsible for it's continued success? Very shabbily
indeed!
Satanists are the last real minority. It is acceptable [although illegal
and unconstitutional] to discriminate against Satanists. Whether it is on
the television talk and news shows, Christian [and secular] radio shows, or
in print, Satanists can be harassed and condemned with impunity. No other
group or religion has to suffer such indignation.
On the following pages, intermingled with my personal views, are some
of the conversations I have had with Christians over the modem lines on a
public access bulletin board. I have left them complete and unedited [except
for the many misspellings]. I was surprised [although with all things
considered, perhaps I shouldn't have been] to learn that in these supposedly
enlightened times, a lot of people still believe everything they see on shows
like 'Geraldo' or read in the trashier, headline hungry newspapers.
Ignorance creates fear, fear becomes hate, and hate leads to the kinds of
atrocities that Christians have been committing for centuries. More people
have been killed in the name of the Christian God than for any other reason,
and yet poor old Satan has to take the rap for all the so-called evils of the
world.
In these conversations I have tried to dispel some of the myths and
misconceptions surrounding Satanism. The book also shows how Satanism
can be and is incorporated into everyday life. While all Satanists will find
something of value within these pages, it is mainstream Christian society
that will benefit the most from it.
The views and ideas I have expressed in this book [while influenced by
the works of Dr. LaVey and others] are solely my own and are not meant to
represent any established Satanic organization.
Oxnard, Ca., February 28, XXVIII A.S.
1.
What is Satanism?
What is Satanism? For many people the word 'Satanism' immediately
conjurs up images of black robed figures, animal and human sacrifices,
black masses, blood rituals, and a score of other atrocities so horrible, that
the mind wobbles. These tales are avidly revealed to us by headline hungry
newspapers and ratings conscious TV shows. The sources for these stories
are most often indignant members of the Christian church or sobbing
neurotics who, under the advice of their therapist, have come forward to
recount their ghastly experiences at the hands of a brutal Satanic cult as
part of their 'healing process' and in the hopes that others may gain
strength from their courage. Their altruistic gestures are, of course,
supplemented by a large check for their appearance. The picture they paint
is a grim one, but not necessarily a realistic one.
This is not Satanism as it is practiced today. While I am not naive
enough to think that some of these so-called 'Satanic ritual abuses' have
never happened, most of the horror stories are pure fantasy propagated by
the Christian church in order to instill fear into the populace. The Church
knows that in order to keep it's flock, and gain new sheep to the herd that it
must promote itself as the last bastion of hope in a world ruled by the evil
Satan and his bloodthirsty hordes.
There is also a growing trend among some psychotherapists who, in
seeking fame via talk shows and/or a book deal, actually have placed ideas
of Satanic ritual abuse into their patient's minds. These people have no
recollection of any kind of 'Satanic' abuse until after they are introduced
to it by their therapists. The use of leading questions and suggestion, while
the patient is under hypnosis, can actually implant false memories of
'Satanic' rituals, child sacrifices, molestations, and blood drinking into the
less than healthy mind of their patients. The only people who appear to
believe this nonsense are several major police departments who have
actually started 'Satanic task forces' to investigate what they claim to be
a growing phenomena of Satanic crime.
They claim that there is a world-wide Satanic cult terrorizing our
country. Millions of taxpayer dollars have been spent in the investigation of
this cult. They cite cases of animal mutilations, Satanic grafitti, and of
course the testimony of the 'survivors' as proof that this cult exists. The
fact that no hard evidence [such as the bones of the victims, bloody knifes,
soiled robes, ect...] has ever been produced or any culprits indicted has not
stopped special agents assigned to these Satanic task forces from traveling
around the country and speaking at churches, PTA meetings and anywhere
else they can about the dangers involved with Satanism. They give a list of
'warning signs' that show involvement in Satanic activities.
These 'signs' include listening to heavy metal music, wearing black
clothing, outbreaks of violent behavior, depression, nightmares or insomnia,
withdrawal from family and friends, and the list goes on. Parents are told to
watch for these signs and to take the appropriate actions [i.e. Report them
to the police and seek immediate psychiatric and religious counseling] if
they suspect their child might be involved with Satanism or the occult.
There are some confused and twisted people who commit the horrendous
acts made famous on TV talk shows and in the National Enquirer. But these
sick individuals are not Satanists, they are nothing more than Christian
'Devil' worshipers and nuts who have bought into the Church's propaganda
and need to justify their vile deeds by putting the blame on someone else,
namely Satan. A Satanist loves his life and freedom and would not
jeopardize them by breaking the law. Satanists do not need to prey upon
unwilling and innocent victims, there are plenty of willing participants to
be found for any type of activity you wish to engage in. A true Satanist
[despite all the malicious slander] would never harm an animal or a child.
Instead, a Satanist holds them in the highest regard because they act
naturally and true to themselves. They are not motivated by self-sacrificing
ideologies. They have not yet been corrupted and blinded by the outdated
moral code and backward ethics that will someday be thrust upon them by
the masses of Christian sheep that inhabit our planet.
Satanists do not worship the Christian 'Satan'. He is merely a myth
created by the writers of the Bible to add some drama and conflict to their
tale. Most of the Satanists that I know do not even believe in a God, and none
of them believe in the red underwear wearing, pitchfork carrying, horny
headed fallen angel cast into the fiery pit for all eternity. If a view of 'God'
is needed, most think of it as a balancing force in nature that is unknowing
and uncaring of the trials and tribulations of man.
'If you don't believe in Satan, then why do you call yourselves
Satanists?' Good question, here's the answer. [actually, here's a whole
bunch of answers.] Take your pick.
Number 1. The Hebrew word 'Satan' literally translates to 'adversary,
opposite' and we are the enemies of the anti-human philosophies and herd
mentality of the Judeo-Christian religion. All abstinence = spirituality
religions thrive on the lack of 'self' in it's congregation. By removing the
egos of their followers, religious leaders are able to keep it's flock under
control and their hands buried deeply in their pockets.
Number 2. By using the name Satan, [even though it carries negative
connotations to the majority of society] we can shake up the status quo and
sufficiently shock people enough so that just maybe, we might get their
attention long enough for them to hear what we have to say. Our society has
become increasingly apathetic, and sometimes a slap in the face is the only
way to get someone's attention.
Number 3. Christians blame everything they don't like on Satan. If
someone goes against the established Christian order, he is said to be under
the influence of Satan. There are only two kinds of people to the religious
fundamentalist; Christians and Satanists. Why not take the name they have
already given us and use it to our advantage?
Number 4. Satan has been depicted in hundreds of stories, by hundreds of
authors, in hundreds of ways. There are however, some common traits that
are attributed to the Prince of Darkness in all of these stories [including the
Bible]. Some of the most common are intelligence, cleverness, pride, a sense
of humor, nobility, arrogance, cunning and most of all, a deep sense of
self-worth. Is this the kind of person that we should despise? On the
contrary, these characteristics are to be admired, especially when compared
to the jealous, vindictive and cruel nature of God as presented in the Old
Testament. Of the two, I would much rather be associated with Satan.
Number 5. It is useful in weeding out the weaker and therefore
undesirable element from our midst. A lot of people use the name of Satan
because it makes them feel special, or gives them a false sense of power.
They think that if they align themselve with us that our strength will be
transfered to them. Teenagers and those who are just plain antisocial, use
the name as a means to thumb their noses at authority. The greedy have used
it because they think they can make a buck off of it. What these types people
fail to realize is that by using the name Satanist, they open themselves up
to persecution, hatred, and the most vicious kind of slander. Only a truly
strong and self-confident person could take an obvious stigma like the title
of Satanist and make it work for them. In short, only a true Satanist can use
the name and get away with it.
'Death is the great abstinence'-Anton Szandor LaVey. Satanism is a
celebration of life and personal success instead of the Christian philosophy
of 'Thou shall not' and self debasement in order to gain glory once you are
dead. Satanist strive for success and happiness in all aspects of their lives.
They boldly walk through life with their heads held high, smashing the
sacred cows of man and religion and exposing their fallacies for all to see.
Satanism is much more than just an an anti-Christian philosophy. It also
provides a healthy dose of ritual and dogma. Growing up as we have in a
dominant Christian society, ritual has become an ingrained part of our
society. Many people desire a little organized ceremony in their lives, and
Satanism can provide that. Most Christian ceremonies [such as Christmas]
are actually parodies of earlier pagan ceremonies. Any first year Biblical
scholar can attest to the fact that Jesus wasn't born in the winter, but his
birth is celebrated on December 25th for a very simple reason. When the
conquering Christians gained power, they found that is was easier to keep
their new [physically forced] converts happy and under control if, instead of
totally eradicating their old religion, they just changed it around a little
bit. December 25th is suspiciously close to the Winter Solstice, a pagan
holiday.
The individual human will is the cornerstone of Satanic philosophy. The
ability to reason and make individual choices is a primary attribute of
Satanists. For far too long religion has been used as an excuse to justify a
persons thoughts and actions. Saying 'I believe this because I'm a
Christian' or 'I act this way because I'm a Christian' are nothing more than
convenient escape routes from reason. Using religion [or anything else for
that matter] as a scapegoat to justify your actions is not the way of the
Satanist. As Satanists, we must constantly ask ourselves 'Why do I believe
this?' If you can come up with no better answer than 'Because I am a
Satanist' you should rethink your stance on the given issue, and perhaps
reevaluate your assertion that you are a Satanist.
Like any other serious organization, Satanism also contains within
itself a set of goals. Stratification is one of the major goals of Satanism.
Simply put, stratification means that individuals end up on the level of
achievement and success that they have earned and deserve through their
hard work and personal abilities. Men are not born equal! This myth must be
put to rest once and for all. The Church has strived to homogenize our
society. When all men are made to be equal, then control of them becomes a
simple matter. A Satanist realizes that men are NOT equal. Some are born
with more raw talent or intelligence than others. The cultivation and
application of these abilities will determine the level of achievement you
obtain as compared to others. This is not to say that you should compare
yourself to others by their standards! You alone can decide how you are
fulfilling the goals you have set for yourself, and they must be by your
standards. Judging yourself by the ethics and morals set by others is for the
milling hordes that infest our planet, and not for the Satanist.
Another goal of Satanism is the strict taxation of churches. For far too
long these establishments have been given a free ride in our society. They
are nothing more than a cleverly concealed business. They advertise, sell
goods, and make a profit. Why should they be exempt from paying their
rightful share to the country that allows their foolishness to flourish? If
churches were taxed, the National Debt would be wiped out in no time flat.
There are many reasons why a person chooses to live a Satanic lifestyle,
foremost among them being happiness. If you are happy with your chosen
path in life, and are living by your own rules and not blindly following the
outmoded moral concepts of others, if you are achieving success at the
goals you have set for yourself, then you are living a lifestyle that can
certainly be considered Satanic. Some people come to Satanism because they
are fed up with the hypocrisy that is inherent in the Christian religion. They
can no longer pretend to follow a belief system that for them, has ceased to
have any real meaning. Satanism offers them something no other organized
religion can, freedom. There are no moral or ethical restrictions in Satanism
besides "Harm none that don't deserve harm." There are no guilt trips
imposed and no absolutions offered. No quarter asked, none given. A Satanist
must take responsibility for his/her actions.
Satanists by nature are solitary creatures and most choose to exclude
themselves from as much contact as possible with the teeming multitudes
that swarm this planet. They are a drain on our vitality. Ideally, contact
with these individuals should be limited to circumstances of the Satanists
choosing. Instead, a Satanists prefers to surround himself with things that
are aesthetically pleasing. Literature, art, music, these are the companions
of a Satanist.
The two major factions of modern Satanism are the Church of Satan and
the Temple of Set, but there are hundreds of smaller organizations
throughout the world. The Church of Satan was founded by Anton Szandor
LaVey on April 30, 1966 and the Temple of Set was started in 1975 by
Michael Aquino, a former High Priest in the Church of Satan. The Church of
Satan and it's founder are solely responsible for bringing Satanism out of
the shadows and into the public eye. Many books and articles have been
written about the Church of Satan and Dr. LaVey and they can be found at any
of the better bookstores and libraries. Not much public information is
available about the Temple of Set. They choose to hide themselves behind a
shroud of secrecy. At the end of this book are some names and addresses of
various Satanic organizations.
2.
America - Christian Country?
Many people are under the false impression that our government was
founded on the principles of Christianity. This is simply not the case. The
brave men who banded together to throw off the English yoke of oppression
were not an overtly Christian bunch [and some of them, most notably Thomas
Jefferson, despised Christianity]. In fact most of them weren't Christians at
all but were Freemasons. The separation of Church and State was one of the
major issues adopted by our freedom loving ancestors. They did not want the
same oppression and persecution to corrupt their new nation that had
corrupted and shamed the puritans. It seems to be the popular belief that the
pilgrims left England and came to this country to escape religious
persecution. It makes for a nice story, but how accurate is it? It is well
known [among those who can read and look beyond the somewhat biased
fables that are taught in school] that our puritan ancestors engaged in
religious fanatacism and persecution that rivaled that of the spanish
inquisition. The Salem witch trials is just one of the many examples of
their rabid [and often times violent] devotion to their God. Luckily for us,
their reign of terror didn't last and it was a more enlightened, more
intelligent people that founded our great nation. Take for example, our
pledge of allegiance. The line "One nation under God" was not added to the
pledge until 1954 [during the hey-day of McCarthyism. Just one of the low
points our nation has had to endure thanks to the political power of
religious fanatics].
Everyone of us were taught in school the story of the Boston tea party. A
small band of Bostonian's dressed up like Indians and dumped tea into the
harbor in a protest over the tax on tea. They dressed up like Indians to fool
the ship's owner as to the real identity of the group. Why anyone would think
Indians would be upset about a tea tax is not known. What is known is that
the people involved frequented a tavern called the "Green dragon", a hotbed
of political dissent. They gathered in the Green Dragon prior to their
rendezvous at the docks. This tavern was also a well known haunt of
Freemasons. It is a reasonable assumption that some, if not the majority, of
the participants were indeed Masons.
While this is not the popular belief held by the Christian majority or
presented in the textbooks, supporting evidence is easy to locate. The first
U.S. Freemasonic lodge was established in Philadelphia, later to be used
[temporarily] as the first U.S. Capitol. Among it's members was Ben Franklin
[who was also at one time a member of Sir Francis Dashwood's infamous
Hellfire Club]. Members of the Masonic lodge in Boston included John Hancock
and Paul Revere. George Washington became a Mason in 1752. With the start
of the American Revolution the American lodges broke away from their
English counterparts. Of the first 20 presidents, 13 of them were Masons.
Thomas Jefferson so hated Christianity that he took a pair of scissors
and a pen to his copy of the bible, crossing off or cutting out offending
passages and tearing out whole pages. When the British burned down the
Library of Congress in 1814, Jefferson sold them 6,000 of his books which
became the foundation of the library. Many of these books were on subjects
outside the Judeo-Christian religion, and today would be on the Christian
fundamentalists list of books to be banned.
The Masonic influence [while extending to all parts of our early history]
is most evidenced on our currency. Look at the one dollar bill. On the back
side is the Great seal of the United States. The seal was adopted shortly
after the nation was founded, and thus reflects the beliefs of the men who
chose it. The seal is two sided and both sides appear on the back of the
dollar.
The front side of the Great seal shows a truncated pyramid with "1776"
in Roman numerals etched at it's base. All of the inscriptions on the seal are
in Latin. The words printed above the pyramid, Annuit Ceptis, mean "He has
smiled upon our endeavors." This is commonly misunderstood to be the
Christian God. The word for "God" in Latin is Dues. It stands to reason that
if the designers of the seal had meant "God", they would would have said it.
The"He" doing the smiling is certain to be the all seeing eye [a Masonic
symbol] which peers through a [Pythagorean] triangle. The triangle is the
symbol of science, not spirituality. On the scroll underneath the pyramid is
the inscription Novos Ordo Seculorum which translates to "New order of the
ages", and order of science and Knowledge as opposed to Christian
superstition and fear.
The back side of the Great seal shows an eagle clutching a group of
arrows in it's right claw, and an olive branch in it's left. There are 13
leaves and 13 olives on the branch and 13 arrows. Above the eagle is a
necromantic star formed by 13 five-pointed stars. The number 13 has long
had a sinister reputation. It is the traditional number of people in a witches
coven, and even today, many hotels don't have a 13th floor. The inscription E
Pluribus Unum [which coincidentally contains 13 letters] means "From
many, one" - one purpose, one will, which fits in nicely with magical theory.
This was the original motto of the United states until it was replaced by "In
God we trust" [which didn't start to show up on our money until 1864 and
was formally adopted by congress in 1956]. This preoccupation with the
magical number 13 is curious, although it could also represent the 13
original colonies. Perhaps the symbols chosen were selected for just this
type of ambiguity of meaning. A lot of careful thought went into the design
of the Great seal and numerology certainly played an important part.
One thing is certain, the symbolism used on the seal is definitely not
Christian. If Christians had designed the Great Seal I'm sure it would have
been adorned with crosses, fish and pictures of the virgin Mary and Jesus.
Another example of Masonic influence in the early years of the United
States is evidenced in the capitol city designed by the founding fathers. The
site selected for the new capitol was a largely undeveloped piece of land
lying on the border of the states Maryland and Virginia. It was originally
divided into two counties, Washington and Alexandria. In the southernmost
section of the designated area was a small town called Alexandria. It is at
least a curious coincidence that the premier city of Hellenic knowledge
would have a namesake in the new capitol.
A 100 square mile perfect square was laid out. The four corners of the
square face north, south, east and west. Each side of the square has sides
that are 50 miles long each. The site chosen for the construction of the
government buildings is in the northern section of the square. This seems to
echo the occult idea that "North is the position of power." The capitol faces
west. The White House is the northern most building of importance as would
befit it's status as the seat of power. There was not even a plan for a church
in the original draft of the city plan. These are clearly not the designs and
ideas of Christians.
The Masonic influence and power in our country began to wane in the
1800's and an increasingly predominate Christian leadership started to take
over. The country's been going downhill ever since.
Here is what some of our founding fathers had to say about Christianity.
"The government of the United States is not in any sense founded upon the
Christian religion."
"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity."
"This would be the best of all possible worlds if there were no religion in
it."
- John Adams (1735-1826)
2nd president of the U.S.
"The age of ignorance commenced with the Christian system."
- Thomas Paine (1737-1809)
Satanic patriot
"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because if there be one,
he must more approve the homage of reason than that of blind fear."
"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."
"The Christian God is cruel, vindictive, capricious and unjust."
"Religions are all alike-founded on fables and mythologies."
- Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826)
"What has been the fruits of Christianity?...superstition, bigotry and
persecution."
- James Madison
4th president of the U.S.
"I do not believe in the immortality of the soul."
"I doubt the divinity of Jesus although I agree with his moral teachings."
- Benjamin Franklin
Here's what some of our world's great thinkers had to say about
Christianity and religion.
"I do not believe in a God of theology who rewards good and punishes evil."
- Albert Einstein
"Satan is not the enemy of man. But he who made gods of our race, knowing
good and evil."
- Aleister Crowley
"I was brought up in the other service: But I knew from the first that the
Devil was my natural master and captain and friend. I saw that he was in the
right, and that the world cringed to his conqueror only through fear. I prayed
secretly to him; and he comforted me, and saved me from having my spirit
broken in this house of children's tears. I promised him my soul, and swore
an oath that I would stand up for him in this world and stand by him in the
next. That promise and that oath made a man of me. From that day, this
house is his home; and no child shall cry in it; this hearth is his altar; and no
soul shall ever cower over it in the dark evenings and be afraid."
- George Bernard Shaw
"The only good is knowledge, the only evil is ignorance."
- Diogenes Laertius
"Active evil is better than passive good."
- William Blake
"Of all the religions, Christianity should be, of course, the most tolerant,
but till now the Christians have been the most ignorant of all men."
- Voltaire
"Satan is the first free-thinker and savior of the world. He frees Adam and
impresses the seal of humanity and liberty on his forehead, by making him
disobedient."
- Mikail Bakunin
"A certain sense of cruelty towards oneself and others is Christian; hatred
of those who think differently; the will to persecute. Mortal hostility
against the masters of the earth, against the 'noble', that is also Christian;
hatred of mind, of pride, courage, freedom, libertinage of mind, is Christian;
hatred of the senses, of joy in general, is Christian..."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
"Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet."
- Napoleon
"No god ever gave any man anything, nor ever answered any prayer at
anytime, nor ever will."
- Madalyn Murray O'Hair
"All religions die of one disease, that of being found out."
- John Morely
3.
Common misconceptions and outright lies
The mystery and secrecy that surrounds Satanism is should not be
totally unexpected. As Satanists, we are not afforded the avenues to tell our
side of the story. There's plenty of room in the tabloids and on tv for the
horror stories, but no one wants to hear about the rational, mentally stable,
law abiding Satanist. People prefer their villains to be, well, to be
villainous. They won't believe that their next door neighbor, the guy who
cuts his grass, goes to his son's little league game and is nice to his dog, is
a Satanist. They can't believe that their doctor, dentist, mailman or grocer
could be a Satanist. Satanists are evil, psychotic, blood thirsty ghouls who
prowl the night in search of victims to offer in bloody sacrifice to their
lord and master. Everyone knows that you have to shed some blood to
appease Satan, right? Wrong! Since we do not believe in the Christians myth
of Satan, why would we try to appease him? What purpose would it serve to
kill someone in the name of a fictitious character? How did these horrible
and totally false rumors start, and why [in these supposedly enlightened
times] are they still believed? Who stands to profit from such propaganda?
Why the Christian church of course!
God is big business. More money has been generated by the various
branches of organized religion that through any other endeavor in history.
The Vatican is one of the wealthiest organizations in the world. Religious
leaders worldwide live in comfort and luxury that can only be maintained
through a large and constant cash flow. I remember watching the PTL club
one day several years ago and seeing Tammy Faye Baker [who was wearing
so much jewelry and make-up that I figured she must have stock in Revlon
and Ginsler Lee] talking about her child's birthday and how she took him
shopping for presents in the Limo earlier that day. It struck me as funny [and
terribly hypocritical] that this so-called servant of God was in fact
profiting big time from the spreading of false hope and downright lies. How
is this possible? Are people actually stupid enough to fall for this sham? It
seems as though they are.
From it's conception, organized religion has been a money maker. It
brings in billions of dollars a year in contributions and sales of religious
paraphernalia. The early Church leaders who compiled the Bible knew this,
and like all good businessmen, knew that they had to make certain
provisions for it's continued success. Now God was a good concept, take all
the gods of the past and present, roll them all into one big ball, promote it
heavily, [violently is necessary] and watch the money roll in. There was only
one small problem. When your advertising an all-powerful, all-benevolent,
all-loving [although ruthlessly stern] deity, certain questions were bound to
arise such as "If God id so good, and loves us all, why did my baby have to
die?" or "Why does God let pain, despair, hatred,violence, death, crime,
corruption, ect.. flourish and infect his followers?" So on and so forth. They
needed to a scapegoat to put the blame on in order to keep God's good name
untarnished and the money flowing. Enter Satan.
The idea was simple, take all the bad things found in human society, all
of the problems and "negative" aspects of humanity and assign them to
another deity, [although one who isn't as powerful as God] and then let it be
known that the Church is the only organization capable of saving you from
the clutches of this evil being. [Providing you follow the rules and leave a
generous donation.] The Church then mounted a ruthless P.R. campaign
against Satan that continues to this day. The horror stories told by
Christians about Satan and Satanists have become ingrained into the
collective consciousness of the population much like those U.F.O. abduction
stories and near death, light at the end of the tunnel stories we hear so
much today. If someone is told something often enough, [especially by
someone they think they can trust] they invariably start to believe it.
No matter how many times you try to tell a Christian the truth about
Satanism, they won't [or can't] believe you. As terrifying as the false
images of sacrifices and other bloodthirsty acts of Satanists are to them,
the truth would be much more terrifying. If they knew that our real purpose
was to break the stranglehold that Christianity has on our world and expose
them to the harsh realities of life with total responsibility, they wouldn't
know how to act. As long as we remain cartoon characters capable of being
vanquished by a prayer to God, we will be able to accomplish our goals that
much easier.
In this first set of conversations I deal directly with some of the most
common and blatant lies that are associated with Satanism.
12/06 7:00 AM
OK everyone, it's time to put an end to the myths and falsehoods that
surround Satanism. I will attempt to answer any questions you may have.
I've seen you all talking and asking questions about this subject, so here's
your chance to get the facts. Speak now or forever hold your peace. Tommy
12/06 8:45 AM
I can't believe that there is a real Satanist on these boards. I have a
question for you if you don't mind. I love animals, and I can't see why anyone
would want to hurt them. Why do you guys do those horrible things to
animals? It makes me cry to think that someone would hurt an animal. Beth
12/06 4:12 PM
Where did you hear that Satanists harm animals? Was it on a TV talk
show? Or perhaps you saw a movie that portrayed Satanists in such a light?
Did a Christian tell you this? Did you read it in some magazine? When
considering a statement like that, you have to take into consideration it's
source. What do the perpetrators of such a rumor have to gain from it's
belief. Shows like "Geraldo" or newspapers like the "National Enquirer"
make money buy people either watching their shows, or buying their papers.
They know how to create a "juicy" story and are not above twisting [or even
changing] the facts in order to give their tales a more controversial or
appealing aspect. Let's face it, more people will watch a show that features
appalling acts of deprivation and horror than will watch a show about people
who simply have a differing [although blasphemous] viewpoint. What the
Christian church has to gain from the spreading of such rumors is easy
enough to figure out, they get to stay in business.
Now, to answer your question. Satanists do not, I repeat, DO NOT
sacrifice animals or babies. That's just plain stupid. We hold animals and
children in the highest regard. To us they are to be revered as the highest
embodiment of life. They do not deny themselves the desires and feelings
that come naturally to them. They have not yet been taught to
unquestionably hate what is different, and they have a natural curiosity for
the unknown. They are not hampered by the false guilt that plagues most of
the adults today. They are the ideal examples of man's carnal nature and are
sacred to a Satanist. Tommy
12/07 9:30 AM
Tommy, I see what your saying. I always try to keep an open mind and
not believe everything I hear, but I have heard these stories for so long, that
I figured they had to be true. I'm glad to hear that this isn't true. I guess I
should be more skeptical about things. Thank you for answering me. Beth
12/07 9:00 PM
I have a question. How do you explain the evidence found about Satanic
sacrifices? I have seen reports and news programs that show butchered
animal remains found with the blood drained out of them and Satanic
messages like "666" and "Satan rules" written on the walls of abandoned
buildings where these remains have been found. These things are real. If
Satanists aren't doing it, who is? Tim
12/08 7:07 AM
I have seen similar programs that sought to expose these so-called
"Satanic ritual sacrifices." These so-called Satanic cattle mutilations have
been proven to be nothing more than the work of predators. They feed on the
soft, fleshy parts of the animals. They can do quite a complete job in a
relatively short period of time. When the carcasses are found there are
never any tracks leading to, or from the beast, nor are there any in the near
vicinity. Autopsies have shown that these animals died of natural causes. As
far as the Satanic grafitti goes, it is done by teenagers who are rebelling
against authority and society. What higher authority is their in our society
that God? These kids are dabblers in subjects they consider to be "evil", and
are referred to as Devil worshipers. "Devil worshipers" are not Satanists.
While to the general public they appear to be the same, they are as different
as night and day. Satanists do not worship, or even believe in the Judeo-
Christian concept of Satan. The "fallen angel" portrayed as the evil,
deceitful, destroyer of man is nothing more than a myth propagated by the
Christian church in order to keep it's followers in line and it's coffers filled
with their money. Tommy
12/09 12:30 PM
I have read your answers to the questions about sacrifices and while I
see your point and will concede the fact that what you term as "Satanists"
are not responsible for a lot of the things they are accused of, I know it is
the truth that you use nude females as altars for your rituals and I have
heard that children are also used. Do you feel that children should be
exposed to this, and are they used for any sexual purposes during your
ceremonies? I am a Christian and cannot imagine subjecting any child to
these things. Andrew
12/09 2:18 PM
Women are frequently used as altars during rituals, but these are adult
women who do this if their own free will. Not only does it go against the
tenets of Satanism to harm a child, it is also illegal, and a Satanist does not
take unwarranted chances where his freedom is concerned. A Satanist would
never subject a child, or an unwilling adult to something that would be
harmful. While the children of Satanists are raised under the tenets of the
parents religion, [as it is in every household throughout the world] they do
not participate in any of the sex rituals. Tommy
12/09 4:65 PM
I am a Catholic and I worship the Lord God and am not fooled by the lies
of Satan, or by his child molesting servants. I have the power of Jesus on my
side and can defeat you! You are fighting a losing battle but it is not too late
to surrender yourself to God. He will forgive you. Sam
12/09 7:09 PM
Where are the facts to substantiate your claim that Satanists are child
molesters? On the other hand, cases of child molestation committed by
Catholic priests are well documented. In the last decade, the Roman Catholic
church has had to pay more than 400 million dollars in restitution from civil
suits filed by the victims of priest/child molestation. More than 400 priests
have been convicted of this crime in the last 10 years and it is believed that
as many as 6,000 cases have gone either unreported, or covered up by the
Church. How does the Church deal with these errant priests once they are
discovered? Most of the time they undergo a brief psychiatric counseling
session and are then assigned to a different parish in another community
where they continue their perversions with a new batch of children. One
victim support group reported that in just the last year and 1/2, they have
been contacted by 1,300 people who claim to be victims of this crime. Quite
a staggering figure isn't it?
How many Satanists can you name that have been convicted of this [or any
other] crime? Tommy
12/09 9:48 PM
I'm a good Catholic and I take offense to you casting aspersions on these
men of God. Those priests are confused and misguided. They are bedeviled by
Satan. They need our love and support. I feel sorry for them and I pray every
night for God to save them, and you too. Satan is the real problem, he has
entered the souls of the priests and has corrupted them, just as he wants to
corrupt you. Don't fall prey to Satan. Only God can save your soul from an
eternity of torment. Jennifer
12/10 9:32 AM
By blaming Satan for the actions of these men, you take the
responsibility away from those who are truly responsible for their actions,
the priests themselves. These perverts are not under the influence of a
non-existant being, they are sick and twisted people who use their position
of authority to take advantage of innocent children who are not wise to
their perverted ways. By ignoring the real causes for this kind of behavior,
it will never stop, you only pave the way for these horrendous acts to
continue. These "holy" and "righteous" men do not deserve pity, they
deserve a slow, painful death. Tommy
12/10 12:02 PM
What about drinking blood? Steve
12/10 12:41 PM
What about it? Tommy
12/10 1:15 PM
Do you do it? Steve
12/10 4:32 PM
No! Tommy
12/10 5:00 PM
OK. Steve
01/05 2:46 PM
How do you sell your soul to the devil? What powers does Satan give you
in exchange for your soul? Does Satan actually appear when you summon
him? What does he look like? I know this is a lot of questions to ask, but I
am very interested. I'll understand if you don't want to reply. Sue
01/05 5:12 PM
The first thing you have to do when you sell your soul to the Devil is to
have the proper magical tools. These items are crucial, without them the
spell will not work. You need 13 black candles, one white candle made from
the fat of an unbaptized baby [very hard to obtain], a dagger [or sword], a
silver chalice, a gong, and an animal [preferably a dog or a cat] to be
sacrificed so that you may use it's blood.
The first thing you have to do is to cover the walls with the proper
magical symbols, painted in the blood of the animal you have brought with
you. [It is necessary to kill the animal in the room in which you plan to do
the summoning so that it's life force is still present] Then you draw a
pentagram [upside down five pointed star] on the floor [in blood], and
position a candle at each point of the star, with the white candle in the
center, do not light these candles yet. The remaining candles are then placed
in various places around the room and are lit immediately. With this done,
you are ready to begin the actual summoning. You light the candles that you
have placed around the pentagram in a counter clockwise direction, saving
the white one for last. Then you bang the gong three times, this purifies the
area, and clears it of any unwanted resonances. You then kneel down in front
of the pentagram and start reciting the invocation. [I will not print the
words here, I fear it would cause terrible repercussions] At the proper
moment [the stroke of midnight], you take the dagger, cut your finger, and
let the blood drip into the flame of the white candle. If you have done
everything correctly, and your desire is strong enough, Satan will come. He
appears in a very shadowy form, and it is hard to make out any details about
his appearance. When he speaks, it is not an audible voice, but rather a voice
that speaks from inside your head. If Satan accepts you [not everyone is
automatically chosen], then he will grant you success and power on earth.
You will be able to call on him, and he will answer you. You do not have to
sign your name in blood like it shows in the movies, your words and desires
are all that Satan needs. Satan gives us a life that God and his feeble angels
never could. All manners of earthly pleasures are ours to enjoy, and when we
die, we gladly join our master in Hell. Tommy
P.S. If you believe any of this, I have some beach front property in Arizona
I'd like to sell you!
02/07 12:22 PM
I think a lot of the problem with the recent surge in Satanic activity
throughout the country stems from the fact that the music listened to by
teenagers today is full of Satanic overtones. These kids are being exposed to
subjects that they are not able to fully comprehend. Their minds are very
impressionable and easily swayed to things that are anti-authoritative. The
music presents Satan in a glorified and appealing light and doesn't address
the ramifications that are inherent from this kind of subject matter.
Teenage suicides are at an all time high, and I believe that a lot of it relates
directly to the music. It seems like every other day you read about some
lawsuit that is being pressed against a heavy metal band who's music has
pushed some poor kid over the edge. It's a disgrace. Something has to be
done about it before all of our children are gone. Gerry
02/07 3:11 PM
While it is true that there have been a rash of lawsuits against heavy
metal musicians recently, [most notably Ozzy Osbourne and Judas Priest] not
one case has resulted in a guilty verdict against the artist. Parents of
children who have committed suicide are trying to use music as a scapegoat
for their child's problems instead of placing blame [or responsibility] where
it truly belongs-on themselves or the child itself. Remember the song
Gloomy Monday? It was found on the turntables of many suicide victims and
was even banned from the radio for a period of time due to the effects it
supposedly had on people. Blaming a song, book, movie or anything else for
the problems of a child or family is part of the reason these problems end up
as tragically as they do. If parents looked to the real source of the problems
instead of using a handy scapegoat, a lot more young people would be alive
today.
Using the Devil as subject matter for music [as well as books and
movies] has been popular for centuries. Irving Berlin, who wrote the
"wholesome" and "good Christian" songs White Christmas and God Bless
America, also wrote songs about Satan. [Stay down here where you belong,
At the Devil's Ball, Pack up Your Sins and go to the Devil] Other popular
songs from the 20's through the 50's that feature Satan as subject matter
include: He's a Devil in His Own Home Town, Satan Takes a Holiday, Old Devil
Moon, Satanic Blues, Devil and the Deep Blue Sea, That Old Black Magic, Devil
May Care, and many, many others. Satan is also a favorite character in
classical music and opera.
If you want to blame heavy metal music or rock songs that mention
Satan for the problems of our youth, then you have to also place blame on
the music of our forefathers, however, this type of self-deceit and
scapegoating will only result with these problems continuing to flourish.
Instead, we must address the real causes. Apathy, lack of parental guidance,
legislated morality, the homogenizing of society, imposed guilt and
ignorance are the real culprits, not music. Tommy
4.
Who gets the credit, God or man?
The following conversation I had with "John", was representative of
the type of questions and answers I would receive from Christians who let
their religion run their entire life. These types cannot make a move without
consulting God or the Bible first. John feels that the only way to give his
life purpose and meaning is to devote it to his God. He is currently paying me
to post any biblical scripture I choose on one of the bulletin boards and to
comment on it. He feels that if I am exposed to the word of his God, that I
will succumb to it's irresistible force. He is, of course, wrong. I have
included some of these scriptures in the next chapter.
In his statements, John argues that since the Christian Bible was
written under the divine authority of God, and the Satanic Bible was written
by a mere mortal [Anton Szandor LaVey], the Satanic Bible cannot be trusted
since man is imperfect and capable of making mistakes. There is two crucial
flaws in his logic though, his God does not exist and it was man who wrote
his Bible.
John, like most Christians, is unable to accept his own feelings or
desires and cannot recognize his self-worth. Christians have been
programmed since birth to believe that man is incapable of achieving any
kind of success without the divine blessing of God. They see themselves, not
as superior beings capable of creating anything of value, but as mere
creations themselves, who's only purpose on Earth is to please their creator.
They cannot accept their ego, so the externalize it, give it power, and call it
"God" In worshiping this God, Christians are by proxy, worshiping the
creator of God; Man. It is easier to accept failure, or disaster, if one thinks
that there is a reason for it. Man cannot find a suitable reason for the many of
problems he sees around him. He cannot accept the fact that he is
responsible, so he assigns responsibility to a "higher power". "God works in
mysterious ways" and "It is God's will" have become catch-phrases of the
Christian. He uses them to rationalize events that he feels are unjust or
senseless, or more frequently he places the blame on satan and his hordes.
Satanists realize that it is the natural action and reaction of the
universe that causes things to happen. He knows he is responsible for his
own actions, and for the consequences of those actions. A Satanist accepts
the burden of responsibility, and with it, accepts the fact that it is he, not
God, who is in control.
If a man is willing to accept responsibility for his failures, why should
he then give credit for his successes to an outside party? Why not thank the
party truly responsible and solely in control of his life; Himself.
01/08 7:25 AM
Does the practice of satanism allow for us all the pleasures that one
would desire? If the answer is yes, does it the imply a philosophy as "Do
what you want and don't worry about it?" In Christ-John
01/08 4:04 PM
"Satan represents all the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical,
mental, or emotional gratification." This is the 8th Satanic statement as
written in the Satanic Bible. There are no forbidden fruits for the Satanist.
we are free to indulge in all types of earthly pleasures as long as they harm
no one who is undeserving or unwanting of harm. Denying yourself the
pleasures found in life because you are afraid that it might anger your God,
and in order to gain a reward from him after you are dead is a ridiculously
self-defeating concept. Abstaining from the things that give you pleasure
can only lessen the value and quality of your life. We are on this planet for
only a relatively short period of time, what we do with this time is up to
each individual. A Satanist does not waste it. Tommy
01/09 7:37 AM
What do you mean when you say "those that are not deserving of harm?"
Who deserves harm in your opinion? How can you judge the actions of
another? Only God can judge man since He is our creator. John
01/09 1:37 PM
If someone goes out of their way to harm me, or any of my loved ones,
they deserve to be, and will be, harmed by me in return. Satanists do not
turn the other cheek. While Christians rely on their God to take care of
things for them, a Satanist [realizing that the only way anything will ever
get done is to do it himself] takes matters into his own hands and makes
sure the job gets done in a timely fashion and to his satisfaction. Praying to
God for help will only result in sore knees and a cramped neck. "Two eyes,
an arm, a lung, several inches of spinal column, both kneecaps, and the
whole left side of the brain for an eye" is my motto. Tommy
01/09 6:40 PM
Scenario: Someone close to a Satanist almost gets in a car crash, she
goes to the hospital and she gives birth to her baby who is fine. Later, her
husband lands a new job to provide for the family. Then the person who was
supposed to sue them did not. Since you do not believe in God, who do
Satanists thank for these things? John
01/09 9:55 PM
A Satanist would thank only those who are truly responsible for these
occurrences. He would be glad that these events turned out the way they did,
but he knows that it was no influence by an outside agency [God] which
caused them to do so.
We avoid accidents by proper handling and maintenance of a car and by
paying attention to the road, weather conditions, and other drivers. Women
give birth to healthy babies by taking proper care of themselves during
pregnancy. [I'm sure you know "how" babies are made.] A person gets a new
job by actively seeking out that job, finding a vacant position, and by being
qualified for that job. A person may change his mind about a lawsuit after
consulting with an attorney and finding out his case has no merit, or perhaps
he just didn't want to go through the expense and hassle of a lengthy trial.
We are in control our lives, not a non-existant deity. Tommy
01/10 9:00 AM
Did a man write the satanic bible? If so, when was it written? Do
satanists owe allegiance to Satan? Do they work for him? John
01/10 12:30 PM
The Satanic Bible was published in December of 1969. It was written by
Anton Szandor LaVey. The Church of Satan was Founded by LaVey on April 30,
1966. Satanists do not believe in the Christian interpretation of Satan.
Satan is a myth propagated and kept alive by the Christian Church. A
Satanist does not pledge his allegiance to a myth. We use our abilities to
improve the quality of our lives and to bring the rewards from our efforts to
ourselves and our loved ones. We do it solely for ourselves, not for Satan's,
God's, our neighbor's, or anyone else's benefit. Tommy
01/10 1:43 PM
Do you think the satanic bible was inspired? What was lavey before he
became a satanist? How does a satanist feel in himself if he shows his
wrath? Is his wrath one of physical punishment or is he cursed or
something? What does love mean to you? John
01/10 3:18 PM
So many questions. My, but you are an inquisitive guy. I notice that you
do not capitalize the name Satan or LaVey. Is this some form of protest?
Are you trying to make some sort of a statement, or are you just being rude?
If you are truly interested in Dr. LaVey's past, read the book "The secret life
of a Satanist" by Blanche Barton. I however, think that you are asking about
LaVey's past in order to try and discredit him and his ideas, a tactic used
for centuries by those opposed to new ideas and views which contradict
their own. The Satanic Bible [as well as the Christian bible {and in fact, all
gods and beliefs of a spiritual nature} was inspired, not by a non-existant
deity, but by man's carnal mind.
Love to a Satanist means pretty much the same as it does to anyone
else, caring. compassion, respect, passion. The difference being that a
Satanist is more selective as to whom he bestows his love upon. He does not
waste his love on people who neither deserve or appreciate it. Since a
Satanist also knows how to hate, he is able to understand the true meaning
of love.
If a Satanists vents his wrath, it is because he has been harmed or
wronged in some way. He feels justified in his actions, and is not
remorseful. His anger can manifest itself in many ways; Physically,
verbally, or in the form of a "curse". Anger is an emotion felt by all men,
whether they choose to admit it or not. If you keep your emotions bottled up
inside you, it can do serious harm to you and those around you when you
finally blow up. Tommy
01/11 7:36 AM
So, lavey started a church FIRST in 1966, THEN came the satanic bible.
So the church was created from a man's mind who we don't even know we
can trust. In your opinion, don't you think that the satanic bible should be
the authority of the church? Is it possible that lavey, who is a man had no
divine authority whatsoever? Just curious.
John
01/11 11:56 Am
Why do you think that a book should have authority over a person? Is the
printed word to be your master? While the Satanic Bible contains the
information that forms the basis of my religion, it is in no way, shape, or
form the last, or only word.
The Satanic bible existed in the form of essay's before the inception of
the Church and was formally published after the Church's formation . It
forms the basic foundation of modern Satanism.
Of course Dr. Lavey had no divine authority. There is no higher authority
than one's self. As for the question of whether Dr. LaVey is someone who can
be trusted, it does not matter. If an idea has validity, it doesn't matter
where it came from, what matters is that the idea is a sound one and can
actually be put into successful use. Tommy
01/11 6:28 PM
Why can't there be divine authority? John
01/11 8:07 PM
It's not that there can't be a divine authority, but that there isn't one,
and shouldn't be one. You should need no other authority than yourself to
justify your thought and actions. Living in a fantasy world where everything
is good, God is in his Heaven, Satan is in Hell, and Bob's your uncle is a nice
afternoon diversion, but will do little to help you get ahead in life. If you
rely on others [God] to provide for you, you will find your life comes up
lacking. I do not need authority from a higher power in order to make
decisions about my life. I can think for myself, do things for myself, and
take responsibility for my actions. Tommy
01/12 9:33 AM
You say God does not exist. Does satan exist? John
01/12 1:09 PM
No, Satan was invented by the Christian Church in order to keep it's fol-
lowers in line and it's coffers filled. If it wasn't for the threat of Satan and
Hell; would you be a Christian? Tommy
* John never answered that question. Perhaps I made him question his
beliefs enough to where he felt he couldn't answer truthfully and still
uphold his earlier statements, perhaps not. I may never know. *
5.
Biblical Scripture
Here are some of the scriptures John paid me to post. [As of this
writing, John has reneged on his agreement. Our deal was to last for 3
months. John only paid me for the first month. I, on the other hand, kept my
part of the bargain. What does this say about the honesty and integrity of
Christians? Well, you can't judge a whole group by the acts of one of it's
members, but it sure doesn't make them look any better in my eyes.] At first
I posted a lot of verses from the Old Testament, God's laws and what not,
but I was repeatedly informed that the laws of the Old Testament have now
been replaced by those of the New Testament and no longer applies to the
modern Christian. If this is the case, why hasn't the Old Testament been
removed from the bible?
Christians base their whole belief system on what is written in the
Bible. They think, act, feel, and live according to the words set down in this
one book. They do not question the philosophies of the Bible, it's the word of
God, and God's word can't be questioned. [Remember what happened to Satan
when he questioned God.] No amount of logic or reason will sway their faith.
When confronted with a contradiction, or piece of false logic in the Bible,
Christians just smile and say "We are only human, we can't understand the
ways of God." They give up their ambitions, their true feelings, their
individuality, and their innermost desires for the spiritual pipe-dreams
offered in their most holy of books. Why do Christians believe? Is life so
terrifying to them that they will blindly cling to anything that will offer
them a glimmer of hope and peace?
The contradictions that concern the ways of God ought to be enough to
make most sensible people question the veracity of the book. The Bible
portrays God in an way that is hardly consistent. Here are some examples of
these contradictions:
GOD IS SATISFIED WITH HIS WORKS
Genesis 1:31; And God saw that everything He had made was excellent.
GOD IS DISSATISFIED WITH HIS WORKS
Genesis 6:6; Then it was grief to the Lord ever having made man on the
earth; He felt grieved at heart.
GOD DWELLS IN LIGHT
1 Timothy 6:16; who alone possesses immortality, dwelling in
unapproachable light, whom no human being has ever seen or is able to see....
GOD DWELLS IN DARKNESS
Psalms 97:2; Clouds and darkness surround him.......
GOD IS ALL POWERFUL
Jeremiah 32:27; Observe I am the lord, the God of all flesh. Is there any-
thing too difficult for me?
GOD IS NOT ALL POWERFUL
Judges 1:19; The lord was with Judah; so he took possession of the hill
country, but he was unable to expel the inhabitants of the valley because
they had iron chariots.
GOD IS PEACEFUL
1 Corinthians 14:33; for He is not the God of disorder, but of peace...
GOD IS WARLIKE
Psalms 144:1; Blessed be the Lord, my rock, who teaches my hands to
wage war, and my fingers to do battle.
GOD IS KIND, MERCIFUL, AND GOOD
Psalms 25:8; Good and upright is the Lord...
1 Chronicles 16:34; For his mercy endureth forever...
GOD IS CRUEL, UNMERCIFUL, DESTRUCTIVE AND FEROCIOUS
Jeremiah 13:14; And I will dash them one against each other, the fathers
and the sons, says the Lord. I will not pity or spare or have compassion, that
I should not destroy them.
Joshua 10:11; As they fled from Israel down the slope of Beth-horan to
Azekah, the Lord cast large stones upon them from the sky, and they died.
More died from the hailstones than the Israelites killed with the sword.
GOD CANNOT LIE
Hebrews 6:18; So that by two unalterable things in which it is
impossible for God to lie, we who have taken refuge in Him may have strong
encouragement to seize the hope that is placed before us.
GOD LIES AND DECEIVES
2 Thessalonians 2:11; And for this reason God visits them with an
delusion that operates on them to believe the falsehood.
Ezekiel 14:9; If that prophet is deceived to speak a message, it is I, The
Lord who has deceived that prophet...
And if that wasn't enough these verses concerning the ways and actions
and laws of God should be enough to make any rational Christian [an obvious
oxymoron] who can read sincerely question his beliefs.
WORKING ON THE SABBATH PUNISHABLE BY DEATH
Exodus 31:14; You therefore must keep the sabbath, as it stands for your
holiness. Those who profane it shall surely be executed; whoever works on
it, that person shall be eliminated from among his people.
BEING HOMOSEXUAL PUNISHABLE BY DEATH
Leviticus 20:13; When a man lies with a male as with a woman, both
have committed something perverse; they will certainly be put to death;
their bloodguilt rests upon them.
BEING A FORTUNE-TELLER PUNISHABLE BY DEATH
Leviticus 20:27; A man or woman who is a medium or fortune-teller
shall certainly be put to death; they shall stone them; their bloodguilt rests
upon them.
BEING DISRESPECTFUL TO YOUR PARENTS PUNISHABLE BY DEATH
Exodus 21:17; Whoever curses his father or mother shall be put to death.
OWNING OF SLAVES CONDONED BY GOD
Leviticus 25:44-45; Your slaves, male and female, whom you shall own,
shall be from the nations around you; of them you shall buy male and female
slaves. You may also buy from among the children of the strangers who live
among you and from their relatives in your environs, who were born in your
country; those you may own.
BEATING OF SLAVES CONDONED BY GOD
Exodus 21:20; When a man beats his male or female slave with a club, so
that the slave dies then and there, the victim shall be avenged; but if he
survives a day or two then he must not be avenged, because he is his
property.
NEWLYWED WOMEN WHO AREN'T VIRGINS MAY BE PUT TO DEATH
Dueteronomy 22:13-21; .......but if his charges are found to be correct and
no evidence of chastity is found in the girl, then they shall bring her out to
the door of her father's house, and the men of the city shall stone her to
death....
WORSHIPING ANYTHING OTHER THAN GOD PUNISHABLE BY DEATH
Deuteronomy 13:1-18; Entire chapter
Well, God always did claim to be a jealous god, he just doesn't always admit
to the cruel and vicious part of his personality.
I couldn't possibly write down all the inaccuracies, contradictions, and
just plain absurdities found in the bible. It would take too long. Instead I
have chosen some of my favorites. I have included the responses I received
to some of the verses, others I have just included to serve as comic relief.
01/11 3:29 PM
Verse for today; Revelation 22:18
"I warn anyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if
anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues that are described in
this book."
This verse means that if you try to change the word of God, either by
adding your own meanings, or by changing the literal meanings set forth in
the book, then you shall be punished. Hell, the early church fathers [when
compiling the Bible] edited, changed, deleted and rewrote much of the
original text. Many verses are purposely cryptic and open to numerous
interpretations. Christians have always interpreted the meanings of the
scriptures to suit their own needs and viewpoints. I have seen this happen
time and time again right here on this board. I sure would hate to be living
next door to you guys when God gets around to dealing with you. Tommy
01/12 10:57 AM
You better sit down. I agree, yes agree with most of your explanation of
the verse, although "literal meanings" is a pretty far stretch. Much of the
bible, Jesus's stories and especially Revelations, is full of analogies and
simile. This is purposeful, however, so that different cultures, societies,
and people in general are able to "read into" and understand it in their own
way. The Bible is a living thing, somehow being absorbed into the cultures of
a thousand different places in a thousand different times. This has been
done since it's creation, yet the word has never changed. Can you explain
this? Phil
P.S. Your slipping, tommy. You neglected to put "your" in front of "God" like
you normally do. Could it be that you subconsciously believe?
01/12 3:00 PM
My omission of the word "your" was not some kind of a Freudian slip. I
sometimes leave it out on purpose. I like to keep you on your toes. Besides,
you know I don't believe in God and am only arguing in the hypothetical sense
anyway.
In answer to your question, I believe the "Word" has been changed,
through numerous translations and censoring [sometimes whole chapters] by
the early church fathers, I'm sure it hardly resembles the original
manuscript. Change one word, and whole chapters and verses can take on a
new meaning. The deliberately cryptical nature of the bible only makes it
more unbelievable and untrustworthy. It can be interpreted in a thousand
different ways and have a thousand different meanings attached to it. This
is one of the reasons for it's longevity, it's hard to pin down on specifics, so
it can keep the "experts" and laymen alike, guessing for years to come. The
fact that is has survived as long as it has really proves nothing about the
truthfulness or accuracy of the book. Many of the more popular myths have
survived the ravages of time. The tale of Santa Claus has been around for
almost as long, and you don't still believe in Santa, do you? Tommy
01/13 6:56
Nuts, and I thought I was keeping you on YOUR toes. This is truly grand! I
wish I had joined this board sooner. I can't wait to see what you come up
with next. Phil
01/12 6:19 PM
Wow, Tommy, that pretty much takes care of almost all organized
Christian Churches, including the Catholic Church, which is the master at
interpreting the "Word" to fit it's needs. I'm glad someone like you is around
to liven up these boards and make us question our own beliefs. Karen
01/12 7:22 PM
Yeah, pretty good huh? Tommy
01/12 12:15 PM
Tom, I like this verse a lot. When God uses the word "book" in that verse
he is referring to the whole bible. To "add" prophecy means that some
denomination has the Bible as it's authority + a vision or a tongue or
messages from God in an audible voice. The person now has a w i d e r
authority. He has the Bible + he believes in that message or vision. To take
"away" can point to a denomination who only holds the Old Testament as it's
authority. John
01/12 5:21 PM
Hey Tommy, good try! I am not even going to try and argue with you on
this one. Fact, you are right. I know this may sound strange coming from
someone who loves Jesus like I do, but the fact of the matter is, I don't have
to interpret Revelation or any part of the Bible for it to have meaning. Just
reading it is enough. The part about Satan being thrown into a lake of fire,
no interpretation needed there, or the part about Christ ruling forever, I
don't need to defend that either. Does a lion need to be defended? No, neither
does the Word of God. Dan
01/12 6:00 PM
If the lion was as sick and dying as your religion is, it would need plenty
of defending. Blind faith is just a shortcut to reason. Not questioning, or
seeking the truth behind the words is unthinkable. If you are just reading the
Bible and not attaching any kind of meaning to it, other than the literal
meaning of the words, then my question to you is: Are you living your life
exactly as the Bible tells you too? Tommy
01/12 7:41 PM
It is virtually impossible for a person to live their life EXACTLY as the
Bible says to. It is enough that we love God and that we try to live as God
wants us too. We are after all, only human, and humans are imperfect. All
men sin and fall short of the glory of God, but that's OK, we are granted
forgiveness by his infinite mercy. Dan
01/12 8:03 PM
What's the point then? If you can't or aren't going to live your life
according to the laws set forth in the Bible, then why have it? By saying you
are only human and are imperfect you are merely opening up an escape route
for yourself and trying to justify your shortcomings. I've read the Bible, and
if you were as committed to your God as you claim to be, if you truly
believed, if the words of the Bible were truth and God was a reality, you
COULD live your life according to the laws of God. The fact that you [or
anyone else] can't, should make you question the veracity and necessity of
your beliefs. Christianity is unnatural, it goes against instincts and desires
that are inherent in humans. Spirituality cannot override man's carnal
nature. Tommy
01/15 10:58 AM
Tommy's verse of the day; Job 1:21
Saying "Naked I came forth from my mothers womb, and naked I shall
return; the Lord gave and the Lord has taken away; blessed be the name of
the lord."
This verse means everything that you own has been given to you by God,
therefore, he has the right to take it away.
Now, I know that the bible claims it was Satan who actually did the
physical damage to Job's family and servants, but God let him do it. God in
his infinite jealousy and pride, set Job up big time, and for no other reason
than God wanted to show off for Satan a little. If I remember the story
correctly, God gave Job a bunch of nifty prizes at the end of the story, but
this is in no way proper recompense for having one's children murdered.
What kind of a crummy God is going to take part in having something like
this happen to one of his followers, especially one as faithful as Job, who
had always shown him reverence and never failed to debase himself properly
before his loving lord? You Christians are always so fond of stating that God
knows everything that has happened or is going to happen, past, present and
future. If this is true, what did god stand to gain by fucking over Job? He
KNEW ahead of time that Job would not turn against him. Was God trying to
prove something to Satan? If God is all powerful, why would he need to
prove anything to anybody? How is it that Satan [who is supposedly inferior
to God] was able to goad God into treating one of his true believers so
poorly? If God truly cared about you, he wouldn't treat you like that just to
prove a point to someone he supposedly created and has complete control
over. Tommy
01/15 8:16 PM
I would just like to say that you [and all your sparring partners] have
made this posting station so interesting! I have really enjoyed reading them.
You all seem to be highly intelligent and well-versed in your areas of
interest.
What is controversial about today's daily scripture? I think were all in
sync about the birthday suit issue!
Tommy. I just have to say-I'm with the others that say that they don't
believe for a minute that you are a Satanist. At one time or another have you
or have you not considered yourself a born-again Christian? I think you're a
thinker, who dislikes organized religion, and it drives you nuts that people
fol- low blindly, but your a Christian, none-the-less.
Or maybe it's just that you're so darned charming? Anyway, please keep
writing and we'll keep reading. Mary-Alice
01/15 9:35 Pm
I promise you, as long as people let ignorance and fear cloud their
thinking, I will continue to write. As long as self-righteous individuals try
to limit my freedoms, I will continue to write. Also, I resent being called a
Christian. Tommy
01/18 8:06 AM
Tommy's verse of the day; Proverbs 23:4
"Do not toil to get wealth; surrender that personal ambition."
This verse simply means that you are not to strive to better yourself.
That you should remain poor and dependent on God and the Church. The people
who wrote the Bible weren't the most knowledgeable people to ever walk
the earth, but they knew that it is much easier to control a poor and hungry
person than a person who's life is giving him riches and pleasure without
the help of God.
Why doesn't God want you to succeed in life? Without hard work and
effort, a person will go nowhere except down. Will God provide for you? I
don't think so. The next time your rent is due, tell the landlord that God is
going to pay it. The next time your children are hungry, tell them to get
some food from God, maybe he'll send Jesus down to earth to perform his
famous one fish/loaf of bread, feed the multitudes trick. Of course if you do
this, you will be homeless and hungry. YOU have to provide for yourself!
Alas, God has forbidden you to strive for success. It is not up to you to
question God's words, only to obey them.
I'll tell you what, I'm in a rather generous mood today, so I'm going to
help you out, and try to make you look worthy in the eyes of your Lord. I am
going to see to it that you do not prosper beyond the limits set by the
Almighty. So, SEND ME ALL YOUR MONEY! Any money you have left over after
you pay your bills is mine. It is God's will that I receive your cash! Don't
upset God, he can get pretty nasty, so you'd better send your money today!
Don't hesitate, God is watching! Tommy
01/18 12:20
Tommy, your a riot! Chuckling at your last post. Please keep writing, we
need more people like you around here. Matt
01/18 5:08 PM
Tommy, quit it...Why do you continually twist God's word? God said that
he wishes above all things that you are to prosper...How could you post that
horrible and wicked note? I won't stop praying for you!! I will not, I wish
you'd quit it. I don't hate you, I love you, I care for you, I want for you to
have the same love I do, FIND JESUS, my brother you desperately need him;
loose that sarcasm. Please! Please! Please! Shawn
01/18 6:29 PM
If you are not supposed to strive for success, how does your God propose
you achieve it? Is God going to come to earth and give you a 51% share in a
major corporation? Are riches going to fall from the sky? Will a house
suddenly appear for you out of nowhere? Is Jesus going to come to earth and
feed your entire family from one bologna sandwich and a can of coke? Face
the truth, this is not going to happen. If you spend your life waiting for God
to provide for you, that's exactly what will happen, you will spend your life
waiting. How long are you willing to wait? Tommy
P.S. Can I get some fries with those prayers.
01/19 7:44 AM
Tommy, What he means, is not to toil, overwork for great wealth,
because what good is all that extra wealth going to be, if we wasted our
entire lives to work towards it, and all the while lost our own souls? Where
would we be then? Kevin
01/19 2:10 PM
What good is extra wealth? Don't you want to provide for your family?
Don't you want your loved ones to be able to lead a comfortable lifestyle
after you are gone?The word "strive" means "to try very hard", it doesn't
mean "surrender your entire life to the task." You shouldn't try to change
the meanings of words like that. God don't like it. Refer to my post on the
11th to find out what your punishment will be for the sin you have just
committed. Anyone who is against wealth is obviously poor. Tommy
Here are some more of my favorite verses:
John 8:59 "They picked up stones to hurl at Him: But Jesus concealed
Himself and passed out of the temple."
This verse relates a tale about a day in the life of Jesus. It seems as
though Jesus was hanging around the temple and telling anyone who would
listen his "I'm the son of God" stories. The priests at the temple took
offense to his obviously blasphemous remarks, and proceeded to deal with
the young scalawag in orderly fashion by stoning him to death. Now, instead
of proving his claims of divinity by performing a miracle or something,
Jesus decided to use a little common sense and chose to hike up his skirt
and hightail it out of there. It is said that you could hear his screams for
blocks around while Jesus set a new record for the 1/4 mile.
Deuteronomy 27:21 "'Cursed be he who lies with any kind of animal!' And the
people shall say, 'Amen!'"
This verse states that having sex with pets and barnyard animals is a
no-no. [although man is considered an animal too, but I won't go into that]
This one really ought to disturb some of those good 'ol boys who live in the
deep south.
Why did God feel the necessity to tell his "sheep" this. I know that God's
earliest followers weren't the brightest folks to ever walk the earth, but
couldn't they figure this one out on their own? Common sense should tell
you that going to bed with animals is wrong, especially with the one's that
can talk, like parrots. Can you imagine how embarrassing it would be if you
were having an affair with your pet bird and he told on you? Let's say you
have a friend over your to house. You get up and leave the room to get a glass
of water, and the bird starts squawking "Help! Help! He fucks me when your
not here." "Hey man, how did you teach your parrot to say that?" "He didn't
teach me, He's really fucking me! Call 911! Call 911!" Boy, would your face
be red.
Deuteronomy 23:1 "No one who's testicles have been crushed or severed
shall enter the Lord's congregation."
It would seem that you've got to have a strong and active member to
hang out with the Lord. The Lord don't want no limp dicks in church. How can
you fuck over your congregation if you can't get it up? Not to mention all
those lovely young altar boys.
Exodus 22:18 "Allow no sorceress to live."
All you witches better watch out! The Lord wants you dead. Remember
the witch hunts? It's verses like this one that give the mentally unstable
the go ahead to commit unspeakable acts against the innocent.
Proverbs 29:23 "A man's pride will bring him low, but the lowly in spirit
obtains honour."
It's verses like this one that makes Christianity so popular with the
masses. By bestowing honour on those who have done nothing to deserve it,
and at the same time, reducing the worth of those who are truly deserving,
the common man is able to feel that he is important. It is this false sense of
importance and "holier than thou" mentality that Christians cling to and use
to justify their worthless lives.
Genesis 38:8-10 "Judah then told Onan, 'Go to your brother's widow; fulfill
to her the duty of a brother in law and raise a family for your brother.' But,
knowing the offspring would not be his, Onan, whenever he went in to his
brother's widow, spilled his sperm upon the ground, to prevent his brother's
wife from having children. His behavior was wicked in the sight of the Lord,
so he ended his life."
Killed for spilling his seed on the ground, eh? I wonder if that covers
masturbation? If it does, we're all dead!
Deuteronomy 14:8-9 "The hog is unclean because it divides the hoof but
does not chew the cud; of their flesh you must not eat nor may you touch
their carcass. Of the creatures that live in the water, those that have fins
and scales you may eat, but whatever does not have fins and scales is
unclean to you, you shall not eat of it."
What? No ham, bacon, shrimp, lobster or crab? And just when that new
Surf & Turf restaurant opened up down the street. It looks like the Lord
doesn't like football either. No more tossing of the old pigskin. I wonder how
many of you I will see in Hell just because you had a BLT?
2 Kings 2:23-24 "When he left there for Bethel, and was on his way, some
youths came out of the city and poked fun at him, saying 'go up, baldy; go up,
baldy!' As he turned around and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the
Lord. Then two female bears came out of the forest and tore up 42 of the
boys."
Sheesh! You would think that an all-powerful, all-knowing deity
wouldn't be so sensitive about male pattern baldness. Not only is God the
president of the Hair Club for deities, he's also a client.
Matthew 5:5 "Blessed be the meek, for they shall inherit the earth."
The only thing the meek will inherit is a footprint on their backsides.
6.
What is evil?
No single character [real or imagined] throughout history has been
condemned and persecuted with as much vigor and sheer determination as
the Dark Lord. Satan has been forced to shoulder the blame for every bad
thing that has happened to mankind since he was invented [for just this
purpose]. He is the world's scapegoat. What crimes did Satan commit that
could possibly cause Christians to hate and persecute him so? Why is the
name "Satan" synonymous with evil?
According to Christian mythology, Satan was at one time the number one
angel, God's right hand man. He had a free run of Heaven [as long as he O.K.'d
his requests with God first], he got to hang out with the Heavenly Host all
day long, work on his tan, play some golf, catch up on a little light reading,
but he wasn't happy. It makes you wonder, doesn't it? If Heaven is such a
wonderful place [as Christians would have you believe it is], how could
anyone be unhappy there? Well it's obvious that Satan wasn't happy. He got
tired of blindly following God's orders. He wasn't content to sit idly by and
watch someone else make the rules for him. He had his own ideas, and didn't
need someone else to do his thinking for him. He wanted to have a go at this
"creating" and "ruling" stuff. So Satan gathered together some of the other
free spirited angels [who, to God's dismay, were also unhappy with the way
things were run in Heaven] , and he organized a little revolt. I picture it as
being a little like the Vietnam war protests of the 60's. The rebellious
angels, led by Satan, marched around Heaven with signs, shouted catchy
slogans, and mainly disturbed the peace and thumbed their noses at the
"Establishment." Now God, being a jealous god, and having an ego the size of
the universe, coupled with what is obviously a lack of self- esteem [seems
like a contradiction, but that's God for you], didn't take kindly to Satan's
plans and banished him and his cronies from Heaven.
So what? This is what Satan wanted, a place he could call his own. But
now God had competition. He didn't like that either. He had to do something,
and do it fast. He spoke to his agents on earth and said "Dis guy Satan is
musclin' in on my territory, I want youse guys should take care of him."
Now, Satan wasn't as easy a target as they had originally thought. It seems
as though God's goon squad wasn't able to "Rub dis joker out" as God had
given them orders too. Not being able to physically remove the problem, a
new plan was needed. After studying the demographics and consulting a
marketing expert they started a vicious smear campaign against Satan that
continues to this day. They figured that if they couldn't remove the thorn
from their sides, they could slander their opponent's good name and make it
politically incorrect to be associated with Satan. [This practice is still used
by politicians today.]
So, what actually were Satan's crimes? He thought for himself. He
preferred to accomplish things on his own, without the help of his "father".
He was clever, ambitious, proud, he was noble, and he had a sense of humor.
For these things, and these things alone he was damned.
A person who possesses these characteristics in today's society is
called an achiever, a doer, and he is admired and respected by his peers. He
is a leader of men, a thinker, a creator, and he is definitely not a Christian.
Christianity has forbidden these qualities in it's followers. They don't want
another Satan on their hands. This raises a very important question. Is
thinking and acting for yourself now to be considered evil?
The dictionary defines the word "evil" as "anything that is morally bad
or wrong." By who's moral standards are we to judge what is evil? God's? I
think not. I personally wouldn't want to live my life under the guidance of
someone as jealous, petty, and vindictive as that, or anyone else for that
matter. Who is qualified to judge what is good or bad, right or wrong, for
another individual? Many people [politicians, special interest groups,
fanatics] feel That they are qualified. They try to legislate morality, a
concept that can not, and has not worked. Man will always find ways to
satisfy his desires, whether they are legal or not. By making our natural
desires [and ways to express those desires] illegal, you only promote crime.
The concepts of good and evil are subjective. A person must decide for
himself what is good or bad for his own circumstances. If you judge your
actions by the standards set by others, then you are not, and never will be a
Satanist.
This next set of conversations deal with the topic of evil:
01/16 9:51 AM
Tommy, how can anyone worship Satan? I can't understand why anyone
would want to be involved with evil. Don't fall for Satan's tricks, he is a
liar and he wants to make you suffer the same fate he has. Surrender to God
before it's too late. Mike
01/16 1:34 PM
As I have continuously said, Satanists do not worship Satan! "Satanism
demands study, not worship"-Anton LaVey. I bend my knees and grovel
before no one.
What do you consider to be evil? Is thinking for yourself "evil"? Is
providing for yourself, and not relying on a god to provide for you "evil"? Is
being happy "evil"? Good and evil are subjective, by whose definition of evil
should I go by? Yours? God's? No, I have my own definition of evil. For me,
evil is stupidity, dependence, blindness, self-deceit. As for Suffering the
same fate as Satan, I could think of worse things. Tommy
01/17 7:51 AM
That's where you have been misled. Good and evil are not subjective,
they are much like the "given" in a geometry theorem. That which causes
harm to anyone or anything is evil. Period. Mike
01/17 3:22 PM
I have to disagree. If a man rapes or kills [or harms in any way] someone
close to me, that person deserves harm in return. Plain and simple. It is not
"evil" to harm the rapist, the molester of children, or the murderer. It is
justice. If a person goes out of their way to do me wrong, or harm me in any
way, not only will I return harm to them, I will return it to them repeatedly
about the head and neck. Does this make me evil? If in your eyes it does, so
be it. I will wear the mantle of evil proudly. It basically boils down to this;
Good is what you like, evil is what you don't like. There are many things
considered evil by Christians, that I do not find evil in the least. Sex
[premarital or otherwise], certain types of music, prostitution, strippers,
free thought and the list goes on and on. Tommy
01/18 7:58 AM
I never really thought of it like that. I suppose that, in that sense you
are right, Very well put. Howard
01/19 4:32 PM
Satan is evil. God is good. You are being fooled by Satan, he is the
deceiver and capable of great evil. God is the way, it is impossible for Him
to do evil, the Bible says so. Come to God before it's too late. I do not want
to see you fall prey to evil, it will ruin your life. Susan
01/19 7:54 PM
Define evil. Tommy
01/19 9:42 PM
Evil is doing bad things to people or causing bad things to happen to
them. Killing is evil. Lying is evil. Deceiving people is evil. This is what
Satan does, he wants to hurt you. God is the opposite, he would never hurt
anyone. Susan
01/20 8:12 AM
God would never hurt anyone? Where did you get that from. Tommy
01/20 7:22 PM
From the Bible. It says that God loves us and would never hurt us. Susan
01/20 8:56 PM
OK then, let's take a quick look at God in the Bible shall we? I'm sure
you will find it enlightening.
I'm sure you are familiar with the story of Jericho where God had Joshua
kill every man, woman, child and animal in the town. That's right, they even
killed all the animals. [Joshua 6:21] When the slaughter was done they took
the towns treasures and deposited it in "the treasury of the house of the
Lord." [Joshua 6:24] So, your merciful and loving God orders the entire town
killed and their gold and silver stolen. Murder and robbery. You don't consider
that evil? It doesn't stop at Jericho though. He does the same thing at Ai
[Joshua 8:2], at Makkedah [Joshua 10:28], at Libnah [Joshua 10:29-30], at
Lachish [Joshua 10:31-32], at Eglon [Joshua 10:34-35], at Hebron [Joshua
10:36-37], at Debir [Joshua 10:38-39], and the surrounding countryside
[Joshua 10:40], from Kadeshbarnea unto Gaza, and all the land of Goshen and
Gibeon [Joshua 10:41], at Hazor [Joshua 11:11], all the cities of the king of
Hazor, Madon, Shimron, and Achsaph [Joshua 11:12-14], and the cities of the
Anakims [Joshua 11:21]. Quite a little campaign of destruction wouldn't you
say? General God had whole villages wiped out and gave orders to his army
to commit atrocities rivaling, and more often surpassing those of Adolf
Hitler, Idi Amin, and other insane dictators. Instead of being worshiped, God
should be tried for war crimes.
It's not only in war where God shows his evil nature and penchant for
killing. He sets up the death penalty for such "crimes" as adultery [Leviticus
20:10], homosexuality [Leviticus 20:13], picking up sticks on the sabbath
[Exodus 31:14], being disrespectful to your parents [Exodus 21:15,17], being
a witch [Exodus 22:18], not fathering children with your dead brother's wife
[Genesis 38:7-10], calling a guy 'baldy' [2 Kings 2:23-24]. It's not only
disregard for the laws of the Bible that will get you in dutch with God, he
also takes a dim view of any kind of free thought or action. Remember what
he did to Satan? All Satan did was disagree with God and the poor guy's been
persecuted ever since. Not only will he judge from a distance, but
sometimes he gets directly involved. God hardened Pharaoh's heart [Exodus
10:27] to keep him from letting the Hebrews go, then he killed every
first-born Egyptian child [Exodus 12:29]. He sent a flood to wipe out every
creature on earth. Many innocent children and animals drowned in that one.
He has sent plagues against defenseless animals [Exodus 9:3]. He happily
wiped out men, women, children, animals and plants [Exodus 9:25] in a
vicious hailstorm that even "broke down every tree", and then sent locusts
[Exodus 10:12] to finish off any plants left by the hail" He also abetted the
Israelites in stealing gold and silver from the Egyptians [Exodus 11:2-3]. He
has made deformed and handicapped children on purpose, and then bragged
about it [Exodus 4:11]. God also condones slavery and the beating of those
slaves [Exodus 21:20-21]. He would visit the iniquities of the father upon
the innocent children to the third and fourth generations [Exodus 20:5], and
there's many other horrible deeds committed by your loving and caring God
that due too space requirements I have neglected to mention, but I think you
can understand the gist of my argument without them.
So you see, by your own definition, "evil is doing bad things to people or
causing bad things to happen to them", God is most certainly evil. Tommy
02/11 8:45 AM
I have a lot of questions. I hope you don't mind but I am really curious.
Why are Satanists obsessed with dark, gloomy, and evil things? Why do you
all wear only black? I've heard Heavy Metal and it's lyrics are totally about
evil things and the dark side of life. Do you like vampires and
werewolves and other creatures of the night? Is being a Satanist a way of
getting closer to the darkside? Tina
02/11 12:05 PM
What a person wears, listens to, reads, or finds aesthetically pleasing is
a matter of personal taste. Satanists are not obsessed with "dark, gloomy
things." Satanist are not obsessive about anything, except perhaps for
personal freedom. Satanists also do not wear only black [although I must
admit, most of my wardrobe does tend to consist of colors of a darker hue]
and listen to "Heavy Metal." I do like heavy metal, but I also love the blues
and of course, the true music of Satanists, classical. [Mozart being my
favorite] I personally do like to read about vampires, werewolves, ghosts,
goblins and all the creatures of the night. This is a personal like [I've loved
vampire stories since I was a child], and has nothing to do with my religion.
Satanism is about reality, and it doesn't concern itself with myths of any
kind, [except as a form of entertainment] and a Satanist never confuses
myth with reality. Tommy
7.
Masturbation and the fear of sex
One of the fallacies concerning Satanists is that we do not know what
the Christian religion is about. On the contrary, most Satanists are well
versed on the tenets of Christianity. This is one of the main reasons we are
Satanists. We have seen first hand the hypocrisy inherent in the Christian
religion. As with all abstinence = spirituality religions, Christians have
honed guilt into a razor sharp weapon. They wield it against each other in an
attempt to cut down the natural desires of their fellow man.
"What are the 7 deadly sins of Christianity? Gluttony, avarice, sloth,
lust... They are urges every man feels at least once a day. How could you set
yourself up as the most powerful institution on earth? You first find out
what every man feels at least once a day, establish that as a sin, and set
yourself up as the only institution capable of pardoning that sin."-Anton
LaVey
The Christian and Catholic churches seek to control the sex drives of
their respective herds. Christians and Catholics [or any God worshiping
religion for that matter] are not allowed to engage in premarital sex, and
Catholics are not allowed to use birth control [this is to insure a constant
influx of new Catholics]. This is the ultimate in control, it is however,
something that cannot be realistically accomplished. Man's carnal nature
can, and does override the massive amount of guilt that is heaped upon the
sheep. Have you ever wondered why so many Christian ministers and
Catholic priests have been arrested for crimes of a sexual nature? The
answer is simple; repression. If you repress a natural urge long enough, it
will build up to a point where it is too powerful to control.
Christians always seem to have a hard time with sex [no pun intended],
and especially with the ancient taboo of masturbation. The propaganda
surrounding this most natural of acts is mind-boggling. We have all heard
the old wives tales concerning the punishments you can expect to receive
for doing this "filthy, disgusting act." I have heard everything from "You'll
grow hair on the palms of your hands" and "You'll go blind" to "God will
banish you to Hell if you spill your seed on the ground."
The reasons for the Church not wanting you to masturbate are simple. If
you can find pleasure inside yourself [and outside of God], God will become
obsolete. The only pleasure in life you should have as a Christian is the
pleasure God grants you with his love and presence. As we have established
before, God is a very Jealous god. He wants to be the only thing in life that
can provide you with happiness. If you suddenly realize that you are able to
achieve happiness and pleasure without his divine interference, you might
discover that you can do other things for yourself as well. If this happens,
you might also come to realize that it is the power within yourself, and your
own decisions and actions that cause your life to take the shape you wish,
and that you no longer need God to provide for you. You have learned that you
CAN accomplish things on your own. You are on your way to becoming
self-sufficient, and God is out of business.
In this next set of conversations "Stephen", asks for opinions about
masturbation. There were a lot of responses to Stephen's question. 99.9% of
them told him it was wrong. Their responses ranged from "It's a sin to lust
in your heart, and that's what you do when you fantasize while you
masturbate" to "Remember what happened to Onan." A few people even said
that Satan was the originator of masturbation, and if you did it you are
going straight to Hell. I left those out as they were completely ridiculous
and chose to use the replies of "Robert" since his responses were the most
prolific and they echoed the sentiments of the other replies.
01/10 8:39 PM
Hi everyone, I have a question about masturbation. What do any of you
Christians think of it and is there anything that shows God is against it in
the Bible? What do non-Christians think about it too. Thanks and please
could I have some intellectual answers besides "it's disgusting and it's
wrong!"? Thanks again. Stephen
01/11 1:42 PM
There is nothing wrong with masturbating. Don't let these people force a
guilt trip on you. You shouldn't be ashamed of anything that comes naturally
to you and brings you pleasure. Tommy
01/12 9:57 AM
God does offer counsel relating to this matter. The apostle Paul wrote of
having self-control over one's own sexual desires at 1 Corinthians 7:37.
Jesus said [Matt. 5:28] "but I tell you anyone who looks at a woman
lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." Jesus also
said at Matt. 15:19 "for out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder,
adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander." Paul again
wrote [1 Cor. 6:18] saying "Flee sexual immorality, all other sins a man
commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own
body." Sexual temptation is everywhere in our day. Paul telling us to "flee"
is good advice, though hard to do.
I find it easier to avoid these temptations if I avoid movies, music,
anything that would stir sexual desires. Christian sisters could make this
easier for us brothers, and the other way around, by heeding biblical counsel
to dress modestly. We should help each other to remain pure in our hearts.
Keeping in mind 1 Cor. 10:13 is also helpful. It says "No temptation has
seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not
let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he
will also provide a way out so you can stand up under it." Hope this helps
you and others who have a problem in this area.
Robert
01/13 7:32 AM
Are you saying that you don't listen to music or go to the movies? That's
a bit extreme don't you think? Tommy
01/14 8:49 AM
Hi Tommy. In response to your question "Are you saying that you don't
listen to music or go to the movies?" I fight hard daily to be serious about
Matt. 22:37 in ALL aspects of my life. When I first became a follower of
Jesus I didn't really seek out bible counsel, let alone apply it to my life. I
nearly fell away because I had no root, [See Matt. 13:5-6] I relied on my own
understanding which is another way of doing whatever I wanted. [See Prov.
14:12] Over the years I have come to appreciate all the loving advice God has
for His people within His word, His love letters to us. So regarding movies &
music I let Phillippians 4:8 be my guide. "Finally brothers, whatever is true,
whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely,
whatever is admirable--if anything is excellent or praise worthy--think
about such things." I listen to Christian music only. [See Psalms 150:1-6]
Most music on the radio where i live promotes sin. When I do rent movies it
is from my Christian book store, not from the world. All day long I walk
among the hurting and the lost. I see the walking wounded every day who
have gone the ways of the world and are reaping the bitter consequences. It
breaks my heart & the heart of Jesus. [See Gal. 6:7] Why would I seek out
worldly entertainment? I should be disgusted by it. [See Romans 12:2,
2 Corinthians 6:14-15, 10:5] Paul wrote"Be very careful, then, how you
live--not as unwise but as wise, making the most of every opportunity,
because the day's are evil. Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what
the Lord's will is." [Eph. 5:15-17] It is all a question of priorities. Sad to
say, but today, many people in the Church are like those of the Laodecian
church Jesus rebuked at Rev. 3:15-16. They are lukewarm, at a time when
our hearts should be on FIRE for our savior, we are apathetic, becoming a
friend of the world in what we do and say. Many of my Christian friends
spent more time being passified by the t.v. than drawing closer to the Lord.
They know the t.v. guide cover to cover but are ill equipped to share the
REAL, TRUE & PURE gospel to a sad and dying world. We are responsible to
this generation of soul's. But the world looks at us and sees a mirror
reflection of themselves. How truly sad. Tommy, don't look to other
Christians to set the standards in your life. Look prayerfully to HIS LIVING
WORD. You may have written me off as a radical a while ago. I hope this is
not so. We live in a time of spiritual warfare!! Satan's new tool is
compromise and it is far too effective. Tommy, PLEASE let me know what
you think of what I have shared. I am truly concerned! If you disagree, please
tell me. Show me with scripture so we know it is of God. I love you. Rob
01/14 12:10 PM
Robert, What can I say, you have totally gone off the deep end. What do
you do all day, hide in the house from the big, bad, wicked world? The world
is full of beauty and pleasure. You should embrace it instead of locking
yourself away.
The Bible was written a long time ago by people with limited [as
opposed to today] intelligence and technology. It contains many outdated and
backward ideals and moral codes. The rules and regulations of our distant
ancestors no longer apply to us. Society and it's attitudes have changed
greatly over the past 2,000 years, and I believe for the most part it has
changed for the better. I Will agree that there is a lot of trouble in the
world today, but waiting for some non-existant deity to fix things is a
waste of time. If your God wanted things to be better he would do something
about it. Since he hasn't lifted a finger to help, WE must help OURSELVES.
It's the only way things will ever change. Tommy
01/15 9:51 AM
Tommy, I made the improper assumption that you were a Christian.
Based on what you said regarding the Bible that could not be the case.
Tommy, we live in a world that has, as a whole, rejected Bible counsel and
taken up a "If it feels good, do i" lifestyle that you seem to be in favor of.
But man's way does not seem to be working too well. If people practiced
God's Biblical advice there would be no venereal disease, AIDS, abortion,
alcoholism, starvation, immorality, crime, suicide, you name it. Of course
Jesus never said that the whole world would accept Him or His ways. But I
know for myself, and others who really strive to accept Bible counsel to our
lives that it is a way of life that works like no other. If the Bible is all
wrong, and merely inspired by men, I will die a happy man having served my
neighbor. But if the Bible is right, I will inherit eternal life. What of you and
your beliefs? What if you are wrong and the Bible is right? I live to share
this truth with people like you. There is no more serious choice one can
make in their life, to be real with Jesus. Robert
01/14 2:33 PM
It is an impractical and impossible wish to hope that all men are going
to follow your beliefs. You cannot change the carnal nature of man. You have
to accept the facts and learn to deal with them. If the world was, as you
described you want it to be, it would be a most sterile and boring place.
Whatever restrictions you try to force upon humanity, man's carnal nature
will out. There has always been crime, starvation, suicide and all the other
things you mentioned and there probably always will be. These things were
around during the time of Jesus [and before], and during the time of the
Church's stranglehold on society, so blaming them now on a lack of
adherence to Bible counsel is an opinion without merit. The Christian &
Catholic Churches have committed many horrendous acts against humanity
[Inquisitions, witch hunts, crusades, ect...] and they profess a deep and
spiritual relationship with God. Your fanatical reverence to God with his
inhuman and unnatural laws is not the answer to our problems. I feel it is
one of the causes. You can't change human nature. Tommy
01/23 2:21 PM
I've seen a lot of conversations on the board here regarding sex. The one
thing most of you fail to realize is that sex outside of marriage is wrong. It
goes against God. Lust is a tool of the Devil. If you surrender to your desires
then you will be playing the Devil's game. he wants to lead you away from
God. The next time you feel lustful urges, stop and ask God to help you. It is
through His divine influence that you will be saved. Bill
01/23 5:10 PM
Were you a virgin when you got married? Tommy
01/23 9:45 PM
I'll be honest with you. No, I was not. I am only a man and I am not
perfect. I feel a deep sense of shame for this but also a great joy because I
know God has forgiven me. I have made mistakes in the past, and sometimes
I still make mistakes, but I know that God with His infinite mercy will
forgive me.
Our young people are in dire straights. Every time you turn on the tv you
see sex, sex, and more sex. It's everywhere you look. It's destroying the
moral fiber of our youth. In school they have sex classes and they even pass
out condoms to the students. I can't believe it. Condoms in school! It's
immoral and wrong. Our government should do something about it. Every time
I think about it I want to cry. Bill
01/24 8:13 AM
You fucking hypocrite! You make me sick. You are telling people that sex
is wrong, and trying to make them stop doing the same thing you did, and
that's have sex before marriage. You can't have the government legislate
morality. Just because you have a hang up about sex, doesn't give you the
right to tell someone else not to do it. Why do the actions of another bother
you so? I for one, applaud the teaching of safe sex in our schools and the
handing out of condoms to students. Teenage pregnancy and sexually
transmitted diseases are at an all time high. you can't stop people from
having sex. It's a natural urge in all of us. [remember, you did it too] No
amount of spiritual hypocrisy can change that. If we educate our young
people about the dangers of unprotected sex, it will help. Telling them not to
do it will only make them want to do it even more. Tommy
02/03 8:53 AM
The problem with sexual promiscuity stems from the fact that there is
no more prayer in school. They've got to bring prayer back in schools, or at
least the choice for it. They've got to do the flag salute too. Our educational
system is rotten to the core now because of the chaotic messes like sex
advocation and stuff. Tuan
02/02 10:11 AM
"Sex advocation and stuff?" What do you mean by that? As for prayer in
schools, it they took the time to let every person of every different faith
pray, there would be no time left for learning. or do you feel all people
should be forced to pray to your God? Tommy
02/02 3:15 PM
Sex advocation is like distributing condoms in schools. That's
symbolism over substance because it only advocates that kids are going to
do it anyway. There is only one true God, the creator. If everybody followed
Him, there would be no problems. Tuan
02/02 4:04 PM
Don't confuse education with advocation. The fact is that teens are
going to have sex whether we want them to or not. It is our duty to educate
them on the risks involved [pregnancy, disease] and to teach them to be
responsible. [ie.. use of a condom] That is the reality of the situation. Your
fascist plan of complete control in the name of your God, quite frankly,
disgusts me. Tommy
02/02 5:22 PM
Reality is, that the educational system is corrupt. You said the kids are
going to do 'it' anyway. See what I mean? You EXPECT them to do it,
therefore, you WANT them to do it. We have to PREVENT them by teaching
them the basic values that were taught in the 40's and 50's. Tuan
02/02 7:01 PM
Expecting something to happen, and wanting something to happen, are
two different things. Get real. What do you have against sex anyway? Sex is
great! I hate to burst your bubble, but there was sex back in the 40's and
50's too. Tommy
02/02 9:15 PM
Well, yes, sex CAN be great, but you see the fault of the school system
is the fact that they wish to advocate such a thing so early in kid's life-
times. The results are hazardous...abortion, pregnancy, choices, ect.
Back in the 40's and 50's, even though there were no epidemic diseases
like AIDS, kids still did not mess around. They were more responsible for
their own lives and did not depend on government intervention with any
'protection.' The same with guns. In places where the citizens own guns, the
lesser the crime. Tuan
02/02 9:47 PM
You're still confusing education with advocation. Get a dictionary and
look up the words, will ya? Are you actually naive enough to think that kids
weren't having sex in the 40's or 50's? Ask someone who was a teen during
that generation, they'll tell you that there was plenty of sex going on. The
only difference was, if a young girl got pregnant back then, instead of going
on Oprah and telling her story to millions of tv zombies, they quietly
shipped her off to her maiden aunt's house. Tommy
P.S. Under your list of hazardous results, you listed "choices." I guess under
supreme rule by Herr God, having a choice would be hazardous. [to God at any
rate]
02/03 8:10 AM
If kids in the 40's and 50's messed around a lot, how come the
population back then was less? Tuan
02/03 1:42 PM
Gee, you got me there. Sheesh! Is that the best you can do? "How come
the population back then was less?" Geez, that is so stupid that it doesn't
deserve an answer.
Ok, you seem to think you have all the answers. What would you do about
teenage promiscuity? Tommy
02/03 3:30 PM
I have a solution. Put those who are already 'doing it' in detention
everyday after school. That way they might learn something. Tuan
02/03 4:11 PM
Are you serious? That's your solution? How do you know which kids are
already doing it? What if they drop out of school? Tommy
02/03 4:55 PM
Yes, I am serious. Instead of giving out condoms, schools should give out
discipline. If we take away their free time, they won't have time to have
sex.
POLL: Teens Have More Sex Than Ever
Teenagers are having sex more than ever, many of them unprotected,
despite the risks of AIDS and pregnancy. A Time magazine/CNN poll says.
Fifty-five percent of 16- and 17- year-olds surveyed said thay have had
sexual intercourse, but only sixty-one percent said they used birth control
every time.
The poll of 500 teenagers appears in Time's latest issue, on newstands
Monday. A copy of the survey was released in advance.
Nineteen percent of 13- to 15- year-olds said they have had sex.
Twenty-three percent of all teenagers said they have had sex with 2-3
people, while fifteen percent said they have had intercourse with five or
more partners.
Parental warning seems to have little effect.
Of those polled, seventy-one percent had been told by their parents to
wait until they were older before having sex, and more than half had been
cautioned not to have sex until they were married.
About 6 out of 10 said they had used some form of birth control every
time; twenty-six percent said they used birth control sometimes, and
thirteen percent said they have never used it.
The teens were almost evenly split between those who said it is fine for
children aged 16 and under to have sex and those who said they should be 18
or older,
When asked what motivated them to have sex, seventy-six percent of the
girls and eighty percent of the boys said they "were curious and wanted to
experiment."
Fifty-eight percent of both girls and boys "wanted to be more popular or
impress their friends." Fifty percent of the girls and sixty-three percent of
the boys had sex "because they were in love", while thirty-five percent of
the girls and sixty-five percent of the boys cited peer pressure as their
reason. I think this survey says it all. Our country is morally and
spiritually bankrupt. Tuan
02/03 6:34 PM
I told you you can't stop them, but if we educate them and make birth
control available to them, they just might act responsibly. Tommy
02/03 7:12 PM
Birth control is already available. If kids want to take that risk, let
them, but don't give them condoms for free. Make them earn them. Tuan
02/03 7:45 PM
And how would a person go about "earning" a condom? Tommy
02/03 8:23 PM
By merit. By getting a job, instead of being promiscuous. Tuan
02/03 9:31 PM
You are totally ridiculous! Tommy
02/04 9:15 AM
Here's something you'll probably approve of too.
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4. Mail to In the Pink, P.O. Box 5794, dept. 2667, Bethesda, Maryland 20814
5. if you have any questions at all about your order, call mike at (202)n
547-2342 any time. 200 checks per box. Confidentiality of all bank
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residents add $1.00 per order state sales tax. For security, orders will only
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WITH ANY QUESTION.....A REPLY TODAY IS A MOVEMENT TOMORROW!
Ahem...this speaks for itself. Tuan
02/04 3:21 PM
What's wrong with homosexuals having checking accounts? Tommy
02/04 5:11 PM
I'll bet you want one of those gay checks. Tuan
02/04 9:33 PM
Ooh, clever comeback. Your ignorance and intolerance is a credit to
Christianity. God must be proud of you. Tommy
02/06 1:12 PM
HIV is easier to get than you think. AIDS is God's way of punishing
fornication. Trista
02/06 5:15 PM
That is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read, but let's look
beyond that, shall we? Let's assume that your statement is true, God did
create HIV to punish fornication. Now, I know [and you do to] that there are
many children who are infected with AIDS. They did not contract the disease
through fornication, many of them got it from blood transfusions [and the
rest got it from their mothers]. How can God justify this? God, being the
all-knowing god that he is, HE KNEW, BEFORE he created HIV, that innocent
children would get it. Did this knowledge deter him? NO! Did knowing that
innocent children would suffer a slow and painful death cause him to find
another way to deal with fornicators? NO! If God is truly all-powerful, he
could have introduced a disease that ONLY KILLED FORNICATORS, right? But
he didn't. Instead he chose to let innocent people suffer. Real nice guy. Makes
Hitler look like a boy scout. Tommy
8.
What about love?
To the average Christian, Satanism is synonymous with hate, and
therefore, it is assumed that a Satanist cannot and does not love anyone or
anything but himself. This assumption, like most made about Satanists, is
totally wrong! Being human, a Satanist has the same feelings and emotions
that all people do. He is, however, more selective as to the recipients of his
feelings.
"Love thy neighbor as you would yourself" the Bible tells all Christians.
What if your neighbor is a child molester, a junkie, a sneak thief or a
murderer? Am I supposed to love this despicable creature? Am I supposed to
look beyond his personality and try to see the soul underneath the sick
exterior? Am I supposed to forgive him? Am I supposed to turn a blind eye
to his repulsive behavior and befriend him? Am I supposed to invite the
pervert over for dinner? If you're a Christian you are.
No matter how hard you try, you can't love everyone, it's impossible, and
why would you want to anyway? By giving your love indiscriminately to
everyone you meet, you lessen it's worth. It becomes watered down and
meaningless. A Satanist prefers to give his love sparingly and
wholeheartedly to those that deserve it. Love given to someone who won't
appreciate it is wasted.
What about hate? If you love everyone who is left for you to hate? If you
try to repress your hatred, it will eventually build up to the boiling point
and explode, causing great harm, usually to the ones you profess to love the
most. A Satanists vents his anger and hatred on his enemies, thereby freeing
himself from the emotional and physical damage that can be caused by
keeping your emotions penned up inside you. If I had a dollar for every time
I saw a story on the news, or read in the paper about some guy who went
nuts and took an assault rifle and opened fire on innocent people, I would be
a fabulously rich man. Friend and neighbors always describe the perp as
being a quite guy, who never got mad, never showed his anger. No one can
believe that he was capable of this kind of behavior, he was such a nice guy.
Everyone gets angry. That's a fact! Everyone at one time or another has
hated. It's only natural. What's unnatural is trying to keep these feelings
locked up inside of you by denying that they exist. This type of behavior will
only lead to emotional distress, a reduction in the quality of life and the
view of your neighbor with cross-hairs on his face.
I came across a conversation between "Deborah" and "Adam" on one of
the religion subjects on the bulletin board. Adam is also a Satanist, and
since he had left the conversation and Deborah was still looking for
answers, I obliged her.
01/12 5:06 PM
I know Adams been busy posting in his "other" territory, and much too
busy to answer some interesting questions via E-mail. I may have hit a
sensitive area. I was merely trying to learn more about this young man. I do
not know enough about his "religion" to argue, nor do I have a thorough
knowledge of the Bible to extend.
From what I have read on the Satanism subjects on the 'other' topic,
they do not worship Satan but they unfortunately seem to enjoy songs with
'dark' lyrics and movies with violence, ect... I would like to know if they can
show love and compassion to others, and contribute to the world in a way
that is kind and helpful. I may not agree with the way other religions.....
Buddists, Muslim, Mormons, ect, ect, do business, but I feel that if they are
not doing evil in God's eyes, then I leave them alone. My quest is against
EVIL...are Satanists evil? I don't hear them speak of pleasant things...I think
that most of them are young, bratty kids. Where does love fit in? Is there
anyone out there who is a Satanist that can answer this for me? Deborah
01/12 7:32 PM
Since Adam isn't here, and you asked, let me fill you in on Satanic love.
The difference between Christian love and Satanic love is that Christians
say they love everyone, and Satanists only love those who earn and deserve
their love.It is ridiculous and a virtual impossibility to think you can love
everybody. If anything is given too freely it loses it's true meaning, and
diminishes in worth, therefore a Satanist's love is felt stronger and means
more than the watered down love of a Christian.
Are Satanists evil? Evil is subjective. Most Christians feel that
anything that is not theirs is evil. Tommy
01/12 8:31 PM
Thank for answering Tommy...I understand from Adam that you are an old
person as I.<g> As I wrote to Adam, I, personally, do not claim to love
everyone, as in, the WHOLE WIDE WORLD, but I have the capacity to if I met
any one individual, even a Satanist!!!! Ya know? Could a Satanist love a
Christian? This is fun isn't it? Or is FUN prohibited? Deborah
01/12 9:48 PM
A Satanist can love anyone he/she chooses to, even a Christian. My mom
is a Christian [although she's not a nut about it] and I love her very much. I
do not love her because some old mythology book told me too, I love her for
all the things she has done for me and all the love she has given me. I can
also hate, an emotion that is forbidden to Christians. Would you love the
person who raped and murdered your children if you met him? Tommy
01/13 9:44 AM
Why do you think Christians are forbidden to hate? I mean, we are, after
all, only human...it is by the grace of God that we are able to love, even
though our human minds may feel hate or contempt for someone. The Holy
Spirit takes over...in my case anyway. Why do you think the Bible is
mythology? What about the evidence that backs up things stated in the O.T.
that has clearly been found in the Dead Sea Scrolls? Your views seem to
differ greatly from Adam, your partner in crime. <g> I am pleased to learn
you LOVE!!!! Deborah
01/13 4:42 PM
As a history book, the Bible is probably somewhat accurate, it is not,
however, the word of some non-existant deity that created the heavens and
the earth. It contains far to many inaccuracies and contradictions for it to
actually be from an all-knowing deity. The Bible is merely a Farmer's
Almanac for the people of that time. It is now outdated.
If you believe that the Bible IS the word of God, then you as a Christian
are bound by your religion to follow the laws set forth in it by God. One of
his laws is to "love thy neighbor." If you are forced to love everyone
indiscriminately like that, then it stands to reason that you lose your
natural power of selection, and if you must love everyone, then it only
stands to reason that there is no one left to hate. Tommy
01/14 11:42 AM
Hi Tommy! I'm sorry you can't seem to understand, but nothing is
forbidden to Christians. Through God's glory we are able to do or feel
anything. We are simply commanded to love and do everything in our power
to love. It isn't that hate is forbidden, such as the forbidden fruit, it is just
that a heart that is actively seeking God and living by the Holy Spirit cannot
hate. Chris
01/14 3:28 PM
"Nothing is forbidden to Christians", "We are commanded to love". These
two statements seem to contradict each other. There are a myriad of things
that are forbidden to Christians. Ever read the Bible? What about the 10
commandments? They implicitly forbid certain actions. Tommy
01/14 6:53 PM
Jesus died for our sins. All our sins are forgiven now and forever. A
Christian can do anything he wants and God will forgive him. Chris
01/15 7:32 AM
Are you saying that just because Jesus was nailed to a stick, that you
can now sin with impunity, knowing all the while that you are sinning? Isn't
that being totally deceitful and hypocritical to your religion and to the god
that you profess to love and worship? Isn't knowingly committing a sin
without a care an abomination in the sight of your Lord? Tommy
01/15 3:56 PM
Yes. That's the beauty of Christianity. We are forgiven. Chris
01/15 5:10 PM
Nice little loophole you got there. How did God in his infinite wisdom
let that slip by him?It still seems to me that God will take a dim view of
you trying to get over on him like that. Lucky for you he doesn't exist,
because from what I've read about your God, he would deal with you most
severely for the sins you are committing. Tommy
* Chris seems to be under the impression that since Jesus died, he is now
absolved of all wrong. Knowingly committing a sin under the belief that all
will be forgiven is a prime example of the hypocrisy that is inherent in the
Christian religion.
Christians profess love for everyone, but they don't practice what they
preach. I've never met a person [Christian or not] who actually feels love for
every single person on earth. A Satanist is honest about his actions and
feelings, Christians hide theirs behind a pile of rhetoric and doubletalk. *
9.
Christian [in]tolerance &
a lesson in semantics
For all their talk about love and tolerance, Christians can be some of the
rudest and most vicious people on earth. If your views don't match theirs,
watch out! It is a common occurrence on the BB's to have the Satanic topics
bombarded daily by so-called loving Christians who seem to have nothing
better to do than insult people and generally make a nuisance of themselves.
Their posts range from very aggressive proselytizing to name calling. What
they hope to accomplish by their insane ramblings is beyond me. Do they
think that they can badger a person into following their beliefs?
Throughout history, the Christian and Catholic churches have been
respon- sible for some of the most violent and cruel acts against humanity
ever com- mitted. The crusades, the inquisitions, the witch hunts, were all
perpetrated by these so-called loving children of God. It seems as though
their first reaction to things that are different, is to attack. They fear what
they do not know and would rather destroy it than learn about it.
The first conversation is a prime example of this. "phil" starts out by
attacking me, and Satanists in general because we have views that differ
from his. He knows absolutely nothing about Satanism, but he condemns us
never the less. Instead of a rational debate on the subject, he quickly turns
his position into an argument over semantics. In the end, he admits his
ignorance on the subject and leaves to do some research on the subject. Who
knows? maybe he'll be back.
01/15 8:41 AM
Hey Tommy, I've been reading you stuff here and on the Satan boards and
frankly, I'm bored with your pathetic superficial statements and shallow
arguments. Obviously you know more about typing than religion, history or
life in general. I would venture to say that you enjoy agitating people more
that anything and your manipulation of "John" is pretty sickening. Religious
or not, using people is not the way to go in life, as you will find out. I can't
believe that even a Satanist would do such a thing.
As for John, I would say to him: Tommy doesn't believe half the stuff he
writes. He's just trying to get a rise out of you. He's playing on your feelings
and apparently getting paid for it. I think I can follow your reasoning, and
getting him to read the Bible may work, but it is a long shot. But I do
applaud your venturing out onto the Satan board and making noise there. It is
interesting to know that in 2 or 3 years most of them won't even remember
what they thought at this time. Most of them can't agree on what they
believe and some of their statements are most amusing. Phil
01/15 2:15 PM
It seems as though my notes have upset you. Such anger. Are you angry
with me Phil? I bet you'd like to take a swing at me, wouldn't you? Tommy
01/15 3:12 PM
I expected more from you. Such childish remarks from one who fancies
himself knowledgeable. I certainly meant no feelings of violence to flow
through the modem lines. Perhaps the big words confused you. And although
your messages are far from intellectually stimulating, they do have some
entertainment value. How about some real substance to your messages.
Whether or not I wish to pound your head in is a moot point. [that means it
doesn't matter] On the other hand, according to your religion, if one was
deserving of such treatment, I would be well within my rights to do so. Am I
correct, or is the mindset different? With "self" being most important to
you, does it piss you off when someone shafts you or do you simply accept it
as the life you choose to lead? [i.e they shafted you only because their
"self" is most important to them, so you understand] Also, isn't it difficult
to live life with the take, take, take attitude? These are not rhetorical
questions, so some serious thought process on your part would be
appreciated, if you can muster it. I'm waiting anxiously for your reply. Phil
01/15 7:47 PM
So, you consider my remarks childish, while I assume you consider your
personal attacks on me to be the height of maturity. Do you consider
opposing views to be sufficient provocation to respond physically" I
personally don't, as they provide no real harm to me. Do I get "pissed off" if
someone "shafts" me? Hell yes! Do I retaliate? Hell yes! Satanists live by
the law "Lex Talonis", the law of the jungle and by our version of the golden
rule" Do unto others as they do unto you." It is the balance of nature that the
strong prey upon the weak. Your assertion that I live my life by a "take,
take, take" philosophy IS partially true. I do TAKE what I want from life
instead of abasing myself and asking some non-existant deity to provide it
for me.
I am, however, just as capable of giving to those that I feel need and
deserve it. I can tell by your notes to me that you have not been following
my posts for very long. I have been posting here for some time now, and in
the beginning I did post what you would consider to be "real" intellectual
arguments and questions. Unfortunately, the replies I received were
nonsense. Instead of logical answers to my questions, I would get replies
like "God doesn't mean for us to understand his workings" or "If you haven't
accepted Christ, then God has not given you the wisdom to understand these
things" or, in the case of the Old Testament, "Jesus changed the laws so
those no longer apply to us anymore" or they would just quote to me another
cryptic scripture which really had no bearing on the original question. Since
it seemed as though I wasn't about to get any kind of real answer from
them, and since my agreement with John is still in effect, I decided to have
some fun and post some scriptures and responses that would either make me
laugh, offend someone and shock them into a response, or basically upset
someone enough to where they would forget their Christian rules of love and
tolerance and respond in much the same way you have. Sometimes you have
to force people to break through their shells of blind faith and ignorance in
order to get them to listen. Tommy
01/16 7:47 AM
I've been goading you the same way you have been goading other people,
so don't take the victims stance. Assuming that we are both adults, I would
think that we can both take a little personal flack from each other. I am
glad, however, that you could step away from the rhetoric and reply in
detail.
As far as opposing views being responded to physically, certainly not.
Differing viewpoints are everyone's right and the exchange of such views
are the only way to enlighten the masses. But words are a powerful weapon
[as you well know]. Calling someone by a racial slur can result in a violent
attack. If someone said to me"I'm going to kill you", I of course would
defend myself. But, to answer your question, I would not strike you over a
battle of words.
Question: Regarding Satanism, if the individual is the most important,
how do Satanists band together for common goals? Certainly there would be
leaders, but wouldn't the followers desire the power of the leaders and in
their quest for that power, defeat the whole purpose?
Question: Do you spend your life waiting for the advantage, using it,
taking what you desire and then splitting? If so, do you consider yourself a
normal member of society? And, if the above does equate to you, wouldn't
society in turn tear itself apart? or is it the opposite, that as long a society
is not like you, you can prey [your word] upon the unsuspecting?
Finally, I'm sure it is easier to follow a religion based in ones own head,
with rules [for lack of a better word] and objectives created by oneself
using the vague guidelines written down to be the opposite of the existing
structure of ideas. [Hardly a difficult thing to do.] "Thou shalt not commit
adultery" is fairly straightforward, whereas, "do unto others as they do
unto you", is both reactionary and perception based, not to mention
unoriginal. I would say that Satanists are looking for acceptance and
credibility through the use of the word "religion", doing whatever they wish
but still needing a justification in otherworldly form. Phil
P.S. Why not just call yourselves Anarchists?
01/16 4:48 PM
Satanists, on the whole, are solitary creatures. We do not need to be
part of a group to feel "accepted". We can, however, band together to
achieve a goal that is beneficial to us. We do not begrudge a person their
success or power. We know that we can achieve the same status through our
own devices. Satanists rise in status according to their abilities. Our
"leaders" are in that position because of their abilities, and trying to usurp
their leadership would not only be counterproductive to the task at hand, but
couldn't realistically be achieved by a lesser individual.
Next question. I do not spend my life lying in wait for an opportunity to
present itself to me so that I might take advantage of it. I also do not drop
to my knees and beg some unseen, or unheard from [at least in the last 2,000
years or so] God to provide things for me.I know that to get ahead in life, I
must make my own opportunities. I do not actively seek out those who are
weaker than me so that I might prey upon them, but if an opportunity
presents itself, I will use it to my advantage.
Lastly, of course it is easier to follow a path that you have chosen for
yourself. Blindly following the tenets of a religion that is in essence; anti-
human, is unnatural and extremely difficult. Which is why few people can do
it properly. Let me assure you, Satanism is more than a philosophy, it Is a
religion as it uses both ceremony and dogma. [Both of which satisfy a
healthy desire in many of us for organized ritual.] Why don't we call
ourselves anarchists? Because were not. Tommy
01/17 10:20 AM
The existence of ritual and/or dogma does not immediately equate with
religion. To do something religiously does not make it a religion. I have read
the Satanists talking about x-tians [Christians] fearing what they don't
understand. This can be said of most humans, so why put it in a specific
contex" It's a non-statement. But if this is your feeling, let me offer the
following argument: To disregard a book written/compiled in the late
sixties [probably in an LSD induced fantasy], is this fear? And being wary of
people who have flatly stated that they would take advantage of anyone they
choose, is this paranoia" Or is the former intelligence and the latter
wisdom?
Now, to Satanism. It seems that someone has convinced you that one
need not worship Satan to be a Satanist. Satanism by definition is the
worship of Satan. This is fact and not disputable. You may align yourself
with Luciferians, but unless you worship Satan, you are not a Satanist. I
have not read any of LaVey's writings, but unless his are the teachings of
Satan [man made or through the Beast himself], then it stands to reason that
he is nothing but an opportunist and you, my friend, are shackled by his
confidence game. If not, and he does promote the worship of Satan, but you
choose to accept only bits and pieces of his doctrine as it suits you, then
you are neither true to your religion, nor a Satanist. A true Satanist would
laugh you out of his house the way you talk. Have you ever been to a Black
Mass? Have you ever been involved with bloodletting? Both are necessary
for the appeasement of the Lord of Satanism, Lucifer. But since we have
deduced that you are not a true Satanist, I am sure you have not.
If I believe in bigamy, face Mecca when I pray and celebrate Hanukkah, I
am neither Mormon, Muslim, nor Jewish. I am potpourri. I may have
ceremony and dogma, but the religion escapes me. Religion, any religion,
takes discipline, study and acceptance of the doctrines of said religion. If
LaVey or Crowley have made this unnecessary, then they have done so simply
to garner more people to themselves and, as you have put it before, "fill
their coffers". If I had to be one or the other, I would rather be a follower of
God, than a servant of man.
On a lighter note, I appreciate your correspondence with me. Most people
find it difficult to express themselves on such personal issues. Phil
01/17 4:32 PM
First off, the Satanic Bible was not written under the influence of drugs.
Drugs exert control over the user and Satanist shun such control. Why is it
when you disagree with an idea, you find it necessary to degrade the person
who's idea it was? For a loving, caring and forgiving Christian, you sure are
prone to attack.
Next, the suffix "ism" does not denote worship, it means "conduct, or
theory of". The Hebrew word "Satan" translates to "enemy, or adversary",
therefore, the word "Satanism" means "conduct of an adversary", not the
worship of the Christian boogyman. Since we have established that Satanism
is not the worship of the Christian "Devil", and since you are obviously
ignorant of the tenets of Satanism, your view that I am not a Satanist, is
without merit.
"A Black Mass is not the magical ceremony practiced by Satanists. A
Satanist would employ the use of a Black Mass as a form of psychodrama. A
Black Mass is essentially a parody on the religious service of the Roman
Catholic Church, and since the services of all established religions
[including Christianity] are actually parodies of old pagan rituals, the Black
Mass is nothing more than redundancy." - Anton LaVey.
You still view things from the narrow confines of Christianity. Since
Satanism does not fit your views as to what a religion is, you discount it
outright. You seem particularly fond of arguing semantics, so here ya go. The
word "religion" is defined as "A specific system of belief or worship, ect.
built around a God, a code of ethics, a philosophy of life, ect." So you see,
Satanism definitely qualifies as a religion. Tommy
01/18 10:59 AM
Thin man, very thin. What fantasy are you living? Look in any
encyclopedia or dictionary under "Satanism" ant it says "the worship of
Satan" and a Satanist as "one who worships Satan". Why go back to the
ancient Hebrew or Greek for the translation of a fairly modern word? For a
lark I [jumped] encyclopedia and typed "Satanism", and guess what it said?
Well, it wasn't Tommy's version of the word. I hold a bit more stock in
Webster and Britannica's definition than yours. But you are correct in my
ignorance, and to rectify that I shall do some research. I don't want a library
worth of reading, but if you could mention 3 or 4 books that you think could
clue me in I would appreciate it. [preferably in paperback, I don't want to
spend too much money] Phil
01/18 7:08 PM
Actually I got the definition of the word "Satan" and the suffix "ism"
from Webster's dictionary. But since you are determined not to accept any
other definition that the one you like, let's for the sake of argument, use
your definition.
Satan has been written about by many different authors and in many
different guises, but there are a few qualities he possesses that seem to be
universal. They include intelligence, pride, nobility, creativity, humor. Satan
was a rebel, he didn't blindly follow the rules set forth, he questioned those
rules. He wanted more than what God was willing to offer him. He is a man
of action, as well as a thinker. He is the eternal prankster, willing to laugh
at himself as well as others. His only crime was that he defied God and
stood up for himself. Doesn't sound so bad to me. So if you must insist that
a Satanist has to worship Satan. Then this is the Satan I choose. I'm sure
that now you will say I have to worship your idea of Satan , right?
Here is a list of books you can read on the subject of Satanism:
THE SATANIC BIBLE by Anton Lavey
THE CHURCH OF SATAN by Blanche Barton
SATAN WANTS YOU by Arthur Lyons
IN PURSUIT OF SATAN by Robert Hicks Tommy