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From: CHARLES DITTELL
To: TURTLE
Subject: Humble Request
Date & Time: 05/19/91 12:20:59
Message Number 16901
Heheh...thanks for the try! Re galactic revolution, I got one
anwer of 250 million years at Earth's distance from the galactic
center. Sounds about right to me :)
===========
From: CHARLES DITTELL
To: TURTLE
Subject: picnick
Date & Time: 05/19/91 12:22:24
Message Number 16902
OK, lemme know within, oh, say, a week, ok? Thanx....
I'm already "packing" for it - got some pesqueniacs....(don't ask)...
===========
From: CHARLES DITTELL
To: SAAVIK
Subject: Cooking/housewk
Date & Time: 05/19/91 12:25:16
Message Number 16903
ok, ok, I asked what you _like_ to do, (re work - yeah, so few of us
like to do it)...but raising cackatiels, that sounds interesting:
how do you get them to mate??
===========
From: CHARLES DITTELL
To: SAAVIK
Subject: beliefs
Date & Time: 05/19/91 12:26:20
Message Number 16904
Heheh....ok, let's move on: how 'bout the question, "If I were
President, here's what I'd do about"....
National Debt
Erosion of Freedoms
[add yer own here]
===========
From: THE SPECIALIST
To: OPUS
Subject: Uhh..
Date & Time: 05/19/91 14:13:18
Message Number 16905
Green is green because someone told you it was green.
===========
From: THE SPECIALIST
To: TURTLE
Subject: breaking habits
Date & Time: 05/19/91 14:24:50
Message Number 16906
>...there ARE better things than a good cigarette...
T>Like the ability to breathe.
AMEN!
>but they are even better when followed with a Good Cigarette, eh?
T>No. Kissing a smoker is like liking an ashtray.
AGAIN! Well spoken
T>...isn't "Good Cigarette" an oxymoron?
Yep. Especially to a non-smoker.
NO, Scott...this isn't aimed at you!
===========
From: THE SPECIALIST
To: TURTLE
Subject: 100 years old
Date & Time: 05/19/91 14:28:31
Message Number 16907
>Is there anyone that the shelled one /doesn't/ know?
T>Um...Kim Basinger?
Ah, shit! I was hoping that you could introduce us!
===========
From: THE SPECIALIST
To: TURTLE
Subject: Colors
Date & Time: 05/19/91 14:29:39
Message Number 16908
>...if we have color blind people, why can't we have People Who See
>Colors Differently People?
T>Color-blind people [long winded unneeded explanation for the sole
T>purpose of sounding intelligent]. If part of the system doesn't work,
T>[implied, 'you poor ignorant moron,'] you get color blindness or some
T>other visual defect.
AH, you mean, like a person who sees color differently? I think the
question was valid, don't you? Hmmm. Kinda hard on him, eh?
===========
From: THE SPECIALIST
To: DRAGONFLY
Subject: breaking habits
Date & Time: 05/19/91 14:34:50
Message Number 16909
DF>If someone wants to commit suicide through nicotine, let them.
Agreed.
DF>If they think the feeling they get from smoking is worth the loss of
DF>thier lungs, they have every right.
Again, fine. Just keep it out of *my* lungs.
===========
From: THE SPECIALIST
To: RUFUS
Subject: More Problems.
Date & Time: 05/19/91 14:39:33
Message Number 16910
R>Sure, Sarasota is small,
No, Sarasota is HUGE! I just went home on a vacation for a week
to my home province of Erie County, PA. Very very very smalltown.
Waterford: Miles and mile of back road with a farmhouse here and there.
All the businesses huddle around mainstreet like a bunch of bums at a
burn barrel in New York in the middle of winter. Worse: For example,
for fun people sit around in thier front yards, watching cars go past.
For a variant on that entertainment, they count what types of cars there
are-- Fords, Chryslers, Chevys.
Sarasota is Huge. Bradenton is Large.
===========
From: THE SPECIALIST
To: TURTLE
Subject: breaking habits
Date & Time: 05/19/91 14:46:30
Message Number 16911
T>Kissing a smoker is like licking an ashtray.
S>Um, not to another smoker.
T>Yeah, if you smoke I guess you do kind of lose the ability to taste
T>things, don't you? Heh heh.
Heh, heh.
===========
From: THE SPECIALIST
To: DRAGONFLY
Subject: Random chatter
Date & Time: 05/19/91 14:49:56
Message Number 16912
DF>What do y'all think computers will be like in twenty years?
I dunno, lemme ask it then. By the way, it's "you'uns".
===========
From: THE SPECIALIST
To: THE BEST LEGS
Subject: Handle
Date & Time: 05/19/91 15:03:18
Message Number 16913
How did you get a handle like that?
===========
From: THE SPECIALIST
To: ALL
Subject: I got it...
Date & Time: 05/19/91 15:03:50
Message Number 16914
(evil grin.)
I got it.
(Grin widens. Evil laugh.)
I paid an awful lot of money for it, but I got it. I mortaged my soul
to my roommate for it.
(Quick look to both sides. Maniacidal laugh.)
And it's gonna give me 385 HP to start! What is it?
440 SIXPACK! MOHAHAHAHAHHA!
Mustangs beware....heheheheheheh.
===========
From: HACMAN
To: TURTLE
Subject: Marriage & stuf
Date & Time: 05/19/91 15:42:27
Message Number 16915
>You certainly are. That doesn't happen very often...
.
What doesn't happen oftern...that I agrree with you or I'm in a
minority?
===========
From: HACMAN
To: SAAVIK
Subject: SERIOUS PROBLEM
Date & Time: 05/19/91 15:49:59
Message Number 16916
>True friends dont end a relationship without facing you about it...
.
You're right, so now I don't know for sure whether I want to go see him
or not. My first reaction is to say to h*ll with him. I suppose I will
not. He did not want to continue with the friendship, why beat a dead
horse?
===========
From: HACMAN
To: SAAVIK
Subject: bones
Date & Time: 05/19/91 15:53:04
Message Number 16917
S> A good steak bone wont hurt a dog...also a ham bone... my dog loves
them...
.
Won't any /real/ bone splinter? If so, wont that hurt'm or is the dogs
digestive system able to handle them ok?
===========
From: HACMAN
To: SAAVIK
Subject: breaking habits
Date & Time: 05/19/91 15:55:37
Message Number 16918
Hey...congrats on quitting smoking. I just quit, and I've been smoking
since I was 15 years old. (I'm 28 now). I tend to agree with you that
it might be a psychological addiction. That is what it was for me. So
far, I havent smoked in 5 weeks. Dropped it cold turkey. And to date,
I've had no /real/ withdrawal symtoms. Oh yeah, I've wanted one once
in a while, but not so I *HAD* to have one. Of course I dont know what
you smoked, but I was somewhat health consious(sp?) the last 10 yrs.
(Kinda a contradiction in terms...health consious and smoking huh)
I used to smoke the fads...Marlboro, Winston, Kool, Salem, but the last
10 yrs, I've smoked Carlton..the lowest of the low in tar and nicotine.
That probably had something to do with my nicotine dependance..or lack
of it. KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!
Burney
===========
From: HACMAN
To: TURTLE
Subject: hung up on GOD?
Date & Time: 05/19/91 16:15:16
Message Number 16919
Jesus loves *you* too!
===========
From: HACMAN
To: ALL
Subject: stuff
Date & Time: 05/19/91 16:20:27
Message Number 16920
Hey everybody. My new bbs, YE OLDE ENGLISH DEN is now \o124hrs\o0. (do
you have mci here or not) Cone on down for a visit. Running at up to
the amazing speed of 1200 baud. (Whatcha complain'n 'bout...you cant
read that fast anywayz) The tele number is 493-8401. See ya there.
Burney
ps: Handles allowed too
===========
From: RAT
To: THE BEST LEGS
Subject: legs
Date & Time: 05/19/91 16:41:36
Message Number 16922
If your legs are so hot, why don't you stop by a rat's place and
show them to a rat?
===========
From: DRAGONFLY
To: MAXIMILION
Subject: Pres. Quayle
Date & Time: 05/20/91 13:01:35
Message Number 16923
>He is "Qualified" to run the country under those two and only those
>two requirements.
Well, I wouldn't say that he's qualified under only those two
requirements. He did manage to get elected to the U.S. Senate, ya know.
He's reasonably apt as a campaigner.
//Dragonfly//
===========
From: DRAGONFLY
To: SNAKEBYTE
Subject: Pres. Quayle
Date & Time: 05/20/91 13:04:11
Message Number 16924
>Too bad you can't physically pound someone with your brain...
Hate to say this, but there are mental bullies, as well. Verbal
abuse is still abuse, even though it leaves no scars.
But I agree with your sentiment. Anyone who thinks that pushing
people or countries around makes the rest of us hold them in high
regard does NOT face reality.
//Dragonfly//
===========
From: DRAGONFLY
To: SNAKEBYTE
Subject: hung up on GOD?
Date & Time: 05/20/91 13:06:46
Message Number 16925
Those tunes sound like they should bring the desired effect. Hmmm...
and you brought your weasel along?
If you did that right, you should have experienced something that
makes satori feel like a five-second backscritch. Or, more bluntly,
something that makes an orgasm feel like a quick kiss from your
grandmother.
//Dragonfly//
===========
From: DRAGONFLY
To: CHARLES DITTELL
Subject: relig & logic??
Date & Time: 05/20/91 13:10:52
Message Number 16926
Don't worry. Even if you're being words and obfuscative, I get your
drift.
I was about to argue your points, when I realized something: It
sounds like all we're doing is arguing over the definition of "correct."
You seem to use "correct" and "useful" as synonyms: something is
"correct" when it can be demonstrated -- even when the demonstration
must have certain limits (including limits of accuracy!) I tend to
use the word "useful" there.
Of COURSE any "useful" theory is true for only particular contexts,
and of COURSE "useful" is a subjective term. Newton's laws only work
for particular contexts, and they might not be useful for, say, someone
piloting a spaceship (or just building a T.V.)
That's the reason I use the term "useful."
Do you have a counterproposal for a term to mean: "Verifiably correct
in all situations; universally provable"? (Personally, I believe
any rule like that must be fictional.) For the time being, I use the
term "correct" for it -- except in mathematics, where I'd use the term
"assumed" or "proven."
//Dragonfly//
===========
From: DRAGONFLY
To: CHARLES DITTELL
Subject: picnick
Date & Time: 05/20/91 13:22:33
Message Number 16927
Any weekend after the next would be fine with me, for the Picnick.
//Dragonfly//
===========
From: DRAGONFLY
To: TURTLE
Subject: logic & relig??
Date & Time: 05/20/91 13:26:03
Message Number 16928
First of all (and you may disagree with this), I classify ethics as
a part of religion. You might think that religion supplies the power
to ethics ("if you're not nice to your neighbor, you'll go to Hades..."
etc.) and you might point out that there are people with no religion
who act ethically, but I still claim it as a part of religion. And it
has consequences which are directly observable consequences.
I believe the way one view God can have a very directly observable
consequence on your life. If you believe there is no God and no
punishment for sins after life, you will act differently than one who
believes in both. If you believe God can be bribed to forget sins,
you will act differently than one who does not believe this. I say:
if you believe there exists a God, and if you believe God is watching
your life, and if you believe God will take action on you depending on
what you do in your life, you will act differently.
You're right: a mere belief in the axiom "There is a God" or the
axiom "There is no God" doesn't mean a thing. Just as there's no branch
of mathematics with just one axiom, there's no religion that believes
only that.
The next message will address your second point.
//Dragonfly//
===========
From: DRAGONFLY
To: TURTLE
Subject: Relig & Logic 2
Date & Time: 05/20/91 13:41:47
Message Number 16929
Some religions, including Christian Science, disbelieve in pain.
Some of their members would NOT agree that they perceived pain when
you threw the brick at them. (Fortunately, I'm not one of them.)
Going on to mathematics, Hamiltonian algebra does NOT agree that
1 + 2 = 2 + 1. Only a "shared world view" comprised of assumptions
jointly made by two (or more) people makes it possible to communicate.
If something is not repeatable, does that make it ficticious?
If something isn't verifiable, does that make it ficticious? I doubt
both of those questions. (But I also very strongly doubt anyone who
uses those questions as a lazy way out to explain a phenomenon.)
To tie in with the conversation I'm having with Chaz, the belieft
that the universe is real is an extremely useful proposition. But not
everyone shares it.
//Dragonfly//
===========
From: DRAGONFLY
To: THE BEST LEGS
Subject: alias
Date & Time: 05/20/91 13:51:34
Message Number 16930
Hmmm... you'd better change your alias, or you'll be required at the
next RufusCon to prove it's true!
<Pant, pant, pant!>
//Dragonfly//
===========
From: DRAGONFLY
To: SAAVIK
Subject: beliefs
Date & Time: 05/20/91 13:53:48
Message Number 16931
Ya know, I must be one of the few people who has never seen Elvis.
("When in doubt, it's Elvis!") The False Prophet in me assures me that
he's alive, has lost a hundred pounds, and is doing miracles everywhere.
//Dragonfly//
===========
From: DRAGONFLY
To: SAAVIK
Subject: beliefs
Date & Time: 05/20/91 13:56:14
Message Number 16932
The news on the radio is very sketchy, all right -- but for me, it's
convenient. I drive way too much.
//Dragonfly//
===========
From: DRAGONFLY
To: CHARLES DITTELL
Subject: beliefs
Date & Time: 05/20/91 14:01:50
Message Number 16933
"If I were President, I'd..."
be sure to have the best advisors. (If it were possible, I'd get
George Bush as Sec. of State. The man knows nothing about internal
affairs, but he knows the world REAL well. But I'd keep him far from
the military.)
National Debt? Cut one HELL of a lot of the loopholes from taxes,
and simplify the taxes even more... maybe even just a simple percentage
of what you make. (Companies get a certain percent; individuals get a
certain percent.) (With one exception: there must be a lower limit to
who gets taxed.) The two groups who will grumble and complain the most
are the rich and the accountants.
Erosion of freedoms? Heh, heh... I'd say that everyone by law,
everyone must exercise their freedoms at least once a week, or they're
thrown in jail. More seriously, I had felt that it was the Supreme
Court who had most of the cause of the erosion of freedoms, and that
Congress had been waffling about creating new laws.
//Dragonfly//
===========
From: DRAGONFLY
To: THE SPECIALIST
Subject: breaking habits
Date & Time: 05/20/91 14:09:29
Message Number 16934
>Just keep it [cigarette smoke] out of *my* lungs.
Sounds fair to me. Any ideas on how we can keep smoker's freedoms,
while we don't suffer from second-hand smoke?
//Dragonfly//
===========
From: THE SPECIALIST
To: DRAGONFLY
Subject: breaking habits
Date & Time: 05/20/91 17:13:56
Message Number 16935
Invent cigarettes that have no second hand smoke.
===========
From: CHARLES DITTELL
To: DRAGONFLY
Subject: relig & logic??
Date & Time: 05/20/91 17:20:17
Message Number 16936
Some _very_ good points. I think there's an underlying continuum we're
both referring to, and it relates to the basic question "How to we
'know' something"... so, for instance, we may use the word "useful" or
"correct" or "true" to describe a point on that continuum, but you're
position and mine may be some distance apart. I use "know" or "true"
to describe something such as "the world is (more or less) round",
being aware that some physicist may do some study of alternate
realities to "prove" that the earth is a torus, but in an additional
dimension which we don't directly perceive...and at that point I would
have to say that what I thought I knew, I didn't! Or I may feel that
it is "useful" to believe that the earth is more or less round, etc...
So though I use "useful" much as "true" (or at least as a subset of
"true"), I still may find some items useful/true which you don't.
And so the upshot may well be that as interesting as this discussion
is, it may well lead nowhere! Which is ok, too. After all, I think it
is useful/true that we all are born and we all die and the only
question is what to do in between, and discussions sure seem "usefule"
to me!! :)
===========
From: CHARLES DITTELL
To: DRAGONFLY
Subject: picnick
Date & Time: 05/20/91 17:27:54
Message Number 16937
OK, how about June 7th (if that's a Saturday)...??
===========
From: CHARLES DITTELL
To: DRAGONFLY
Subject: logic & relig??
Date & Time: 05/20/91 17:29:06
Message Number 16938
Interesting: in other words, your beliefs (help) direct your actions...
I'll buy that....
===========
From: CHARLES DITTELL
To: DRAGONFLY
Subject: If I were...
Date & Time: 05/20/91 17:31:42
Message Number 16939
Whew, I can't disagree with any of those approaches. Though I'd
also focus on a few of my pet peeves:
1 - No death penalty, except for Seventh Day Adventists (jes' kidding)
2 - All commercial items to be sold must have the full price shown:
NOT the price minus tax, shipping, preparation, etc!!!!
3 - All bullets must be make of silly putty
4 - Universal full, free health care
5 - Push for UN armed force, and reduce ours to 1/10th the personnel
)make that U.N. Armed Force, not un-armed force, tho that's an
)interesting possibility
----------And Yours???----------
===========
From: CHARLES DITTELL
To: THE SPECIALIST
Subject: breaking habits
Date & Time: 05/20/91 17:37:26
Message Number 16940
Or improve air circulation: floor vents to blow it in, ceiling vents
to take it out and filter it....
===========
From: DRAGONFLY
To: THE SPECIALIST
Subject: breaking habits
Date & Time: 05/20/91 21:11:40
Message Number 16941
>Invent cigarettes that have no second hand smoke.
Wasn't that tried once? And didn't they have problems with getting
FDA approval, or something like that? Great idea, though... if you
can get the smokers to try them. (And make sure the taste is OK.)
//Dragonfly//
===========
From: DRAGONFLY
To: CHARLES DITTELL
Subject: relig & logic??
Date & Time: 05/20/91 21:17:55
Message Number 16942
(Ain't it amazing what a simple comment like "Religious discussions,
by their very nature, cannot be 'intelligent' or 'logical'" can lead
off to?)
Now that we have an idea of what we mean by "useful" versus "true,"
(and an idea of what something means to be 'proven'), what about tying
it into religion. Simply put:
How 'useful' is religion? (There's no way to show most religions
to be 'true'.) Do religious people live 'better' than non-religious
people. (Watch out for that word 'better'...) And, is one particular
religion more 'useful' than any others?
I'm going to try to keep from preaching at anyone who jumps in on
that topic. (If I do, PREACH BACK!)
//Dragonfly//
===========
From: DRAGONFLY
To: CHARLES DITTELL
Subject: picnick
Date & Time: 05/20/91 21:26:18
Message Number 16943
June 7th -- or the nearest Saturday to there -- sounds great to me!
I'll be there!
//Dragonfly//
===========
From: DRAGONFLY
To: CHARLES DITTELL
Subject: logic & relig??
Date & Time: 05/20/91 21:27:16
Message Number 16944
>In other words, your beliefs (help) direct your actions... I'll buy
>that....
Thanks. It was a bit verbose, no? A simplified version:
You will do whatever actions you believe will make God act better
toward you.
If you don't believe in God, the statement holds (though vacuously.)
If you believe in God, but don't believe actions affect God, the state-
ment still holds. If you believe actions affect God, you'll do them.
And that is how religion affects the real world.
//Dragonfly//
===========
From: DRAGONFLY
To: CHARLES DITTELL
Subject: If I were...
Date & Time: 05/20/91 21:35:03
Message Number 16945
Interesting ideas. Mind if I debate them?
>1. No death penalty.
No comment; I'm ambivalent about this topic.
>2. All commercial items must have the full price shown...
Amen! Although I'd even more rather have marked on the package the
taxes broken down: the net price, PLUS all of the 'hidden' taxes clearly
marked on the package.
>3. All bullets must be made of silly putty.
No. Absolutely not. It would be very easy to smuggle in guns and
ammunition: the police would be at the mercy of the international crime
rings.
>4. Universal full, free health care.
How are you going to pay for that? And how are you going to get
high-quality doctors to go for that? TANSTAAFL, friend... and there's
no such thing as free health care.
The solution to high-costing health care? Simple. Why is health
care expensive? One of the biggest reasons is insurance. Why is
insurance so expensive? People can sue doctors for any amount -- and
get it. Set a limit to the amount people can sue for doctor's mistakes.
>5. Push for U.N. armed force, and reduce ours to 1/10th the personnell.
Interesting. Again, who pays for it?
//Dragonfly//
===========
From: KNIGHT OWL
To: DRAGONFLY
Subject: verbal abuse
Date & Time: 05/20/91 23:07:11
Message Number 16946
DF>Verbal abuse is still abuse, though it does not leave any scars.
I disagree with you; verbal abuse /can/ leave scars.
===========
From: CRYSTAL
To: THE SPECIALIST
Subject: Random chatter
Date & Time: 05/21/91 00:10:12
Message Number 16947
I dunno, lemme ask it then. By the way, it's "you'uns".
Look at that would ya. He goes to PA for one week and comes back typing
like I talk.
* CRYSTAL *
===========
From: TURTLE
To: SAAVIK
Subject: Pres. Quayle
Date & Time: 05/21/91 00:52:49
Message Number 16948
>They'd better take a good look at the third in line before they
>go Quayle hunting...
Unless the third in line were one the Three Stooges, I think they'd be
best off shooting...
===========
From: TURTLE
To: SAAVIK
Subject: beliefs
Date & Time: 05/21/91 00:54:39
Message Number 16949
>...how else ya gonna keep up where Elvis really is now...
Didn't you hear? He's hanging out with Jesus these days. They're both
everywhere. "Hey, Elvis, man, where you wanna go for lunch today?"
"Um, I dunno...let's do lunch everywhere!"
===========
From: TURTLE
To: CHARLES DITTELL
Subject: relig & logic??
Date & Time: 05/21/91 00:59:35
Message Number 16950
>There could be a scenario where God _proves_ him/her-self...
Yeah, I suppose that's true, but so far it ain't happened, relegating
religious faith out of the land of logic at least for the time being...
===========
From: TURTLE
To: THE SPECIALIST
Subject: 100 years old
Date & Time: 05/21/91 01:03:29
Message Number 16951
>Is there anyone that the shelled one /doesn't/ know?
T>Um...Kim Basinger?
TS>Ah, shit! I was hoping that you could introduce us!
Well...um, do you suppose if we invite her to RufusCon III?
Speaking of which, this is the first warning: RufusCon III is coming up
in the near future, possibly as early as next month. Anyone who's
got suggestions or absolute no's for dates should perhaps think about
speaking up now...
===========
From: TURTLE
To: THE SPECIALIST
Subject: Colors
Date & Time: 05/21/91 01:05:46
Message Number 16952
>AH, you mean, like a person who sees color differently?
In a manner of speaking. Actually, I meant a person who doesn't see
all the colors a normal person does, which isn't really the same thing.
>Kinda hard on him, eh?
No.
===========
From: TURTLE
To: THE SPECIALIST
Subject: I got it...
Date & Time: 05/21/91 01:07:59
Message Number 16953
>440 SIXPACK!
Dude! I wanna go for a ride...
>Mustangs beware....
Heh, heh.
===========
From: TURTLE
To: HACMAN
Subject: Marriage & stuf
Date & Time: 05/21/91 01:09:07
Message Number 16954
What doesn't happen oftern [sic]...?
People don't agree with me about anything involving interpersonal
relationships or politics very often.
===========
From: TURTLE
To: HACMAN
Subject: hung up on GOD?
Date & Time: 05/21/91 01:10:25
Message Number 16955
>Jesus loves *you* too!
No, not really, but he says I have a great personality.
===========
From: TURTLE
To: DRAGONFLY
Subject: Relig & Logic 2
Date & Time: 05/21/91 01:12:23
Message Number 16956
I'll be blunt: I'm beginning to get somewhat tired of this discussion.
Yes, you're right: if you believe in God it can have an effect on your
behavior. That is not what I was talking about. The point I was trying
to make is this: You cannot prove or disprove the existance of God.
There are no observable phenomena which go on in the real world which
must be attributable to God. There are no physical, direct consequences
which are a result of the existance or lack thereof of God. Belief in Go
is an act of faith which is quantifiably different from belief in a
mathmatical axiom. If you wish to continue to believe that faith in
God is tatamount to belief that a hammer will fall when dropped or that
one plus one is two, that's fine, but I will point out that if it were
truly that simple there would not be such a widespread lack of consensus
on the issue. So, just to flog this dead horse one more time, I will
say again: There is a quantifiable difference between a logical dis-
cussion and a religious one. The former will always, ALWAYS contain some
leap of faith somewhere that is different in kind from any similar so-
called leap of faith in a non-religious discussion.
As to your second point: Religions generally include ethics as part of
their code, but ethics do not derive exclusively from and
do not depend on religion. Ethics can exist without religion. Therefore,
religion is not the source of ethics. Point dismissed.
===========
From: TURTLE
To: DRAGONFLY
Subject: breaking habits
Date & Time: 05/21/91 01:19:33
Message Number 16957
>Any ideas on how we can keep smoker's freedoms...
What, pray tell, does the phrase "smoker's freedoms" mean? Surely
you aren't suggesting that people have the /right/ to smoke...or
even the /right/ to smoke tobacco products only. I don't recall that
being anywhere in the jurisdiction of any of the rights guaranteed
in the Constitution or anywhere else, and it's a certainty that people
don't have the /right/ to smoke non-tobacco substances. The fact that
society condones it does not mean it's a "right." I don't have the
"right" to dump poison into the air through a smaokestack; do you
suggest I have the right to dump poison into the air through a rolled-
up paper tube? If any "freedoms" are at stake here, they're freedoms
connected with the right to privacy, which doesn't extend to public
places (and that argument can easily be applied to a host of drugs
besides tobacco, too...)!
===========
From: TURTLE
To: THE SPECIALIST
Subject: breaking habits
Date & Time: 05/21/91 01:23:33
Message Number 16958
>Invent cigarettes that have no second-hand smoke.
They did. They aren't very profitable. We mustn't let little things like
health risks to non-smokers interfere with profits, doncha know.
===========
From: TURTLE
To: DRAGONFLY
Subject: breaking habits
Date & Time: 05/21/91 01:25:16
Message Number 16959
>Wasn't [smokeless cigarettes] tried once?
Yes. By Phillip Morris.
>And didn't they have problems with getting FDA approval...?
No. The FDA has no jurisdiction whatsoever to regulate tobacco products.
In fact, it is SPECIFICALLY STATED in the FDA's charter that it has no
jurisdiction to regulate tobacco products. Regulation is performed
solely by the ATF (the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms).
Philip Morris attempted to market their smokeless cigarettes in several
markets. They were a dismal commercial flop. Too damn expensive to
produce.
===========
From: TURTLE
To: DRAGONFLY
Subject: relig & logic??
Date & Time: 05/21/91 01:27:48
Message Number 16960
>(There's no way to show most religions to be 'true'.)
No shit. That's what I've been trying to say. That's why religious
arguments are not logical, even if they are couched in logical terms
anmd even if they do borrow the techniques of logic.
===========
From: DRAGONFLY
To: KNIGHT OWL
Subject: verbal abuse
Date & Time: 05/21/91 11:10:41
Message Number 16961
DF>Verbal abuse.... does not leave any scars.
KO>I disagree with you; verbal abuse /can/ leave scars.
'
Touche.
//Dragonfly//
===========
From: DRAGONFLY
To: CRYSTAL
Subject: You'uns
Date & Time: 05/21/91 11:12:24
Message Number 16962
All you Nahtherners kin't tahk straight. Sheeeeesh!
(I've never heard ya say "you'uns," Crystal.)
//Dragonfly//
===========
From: DRAGONFLY
To: TURTLE
Subject: 100 years old
Date & Time: 05/21/91 11:16:12
Message Number 16963
RufusCon III, next month? Is anyone interested in getting, say,
buttons made for it? (I believe Watts has a button-maker.) Or maybe
T-shirts? (A bit expensive, but possible.)
Then again, we could invite Maggie de Alercon, and call it the
MaggiCon '91.
//Dragonfly//
===========
From: DRAGONFLY
To: TURTLE
Subject: breaking habits
Date & Time: 05/21/91 11:20:12
Message Number 16964
Previously in the discussion, we had agreed that people have the
'right' to commit a slow suicide through nicotine. This 'right' has
not been written up in either the U. S. Constitution, the Florida
Constitution, the New College Constitution, or the Laws of the Kingdom
of Trimaris. (It should show up in the book of the Aardvark.)
I agree with you, though. The 'right' to commit suicide is not the
right to subject others to the same poison. Fair enough?
//Dragonfly//
===========
From: DRAGONFLY
To: TURTLE
Subject: relig & logic??
Date & Time: 05/21/91 11:25:55
Message Number 16965
D U D E ! ! ! Wake up and smell the tofu! N O, N O, N O! ! !
DF> There's no way to show most religions to be 'true'.
Dude! I had just gotten into a discussion with Chaz trying to
define 'true' as 'verifiably correct.' Because something is NOT
verifiable, that does NOT make it illogical to believe.
We've gone through this a number of times. Religious arguments ARE
'logical' -- you have assumptions, and conclusions derived from the
assumptions. Whether or not the assumptions are reasonable is another
question entirely.
Not once have I ever said that religion was verifiable. I have
stated that religion does make a difference in people's lives. I have
stated that it is not a contradiction to believe in God. However, I
have not said (except in jest) that anyone knows undeniably that God
exists.
//Dragonfly//
===========
From: THE SPECIALIST
To: CHARLES DITTELL
Subject: breaking habits
Date & Time: 05/21/91 15:27:58
Message Number 16966
Well, if you stop the smoke at it's source, then you don't have to
worry about large, expensive air filtration systems. Besides, on the
way out the smoke could still get into my lungs. Granted, not much
or enough to make a difference, but it's the principal of the thing...
am I rambling again? Oh, never mind...say did I mention....
===========
From: THE SPECIALIST
To: DRAGONFLY
Subject: breaking habits
Date & Time: 05/21/91 15:29:42
Message Number 16967
Waitaminute...they didn't have FDA approval? And ordinary cigarettes
DO? Don't tell me that the FDA won't approve a cigarette which is bad
for you...they already have! And Furthermore--a cigarette which creates
no second hand smoke could only be a good thing! And so what if it
isn't good for the smoker's health -- the stupid things aren't any good
for your health to start with!
And getting the smokers to try them would be easy...as long as you
outlawed all the other types. As for taste--cigarette smokers suffer
from lack thereof anyway.
===========
From: THE SPECIALIST
To: TURTLE
Subject: I got it...
Date & Time: 05/21/91 15:35:44
Message Number 16968
TS>440 SIXPACK!
T>Dude! I wanna go for a ride...
You sure? I'm drivin...
===========
From: RUFUS
To: SAAVIK
Subject: Birth Control
Date & Time: 05/21/91 19:21:44
Message Number 16969
>(WHACK!!!> Hehe, nice to "meat" you, Rufus....
Aaarrgghh....
===========
From: RUFUS
To: THE SPECIALIST
Subject: More Problems.
Date & Time: 05/21/91 19:26:21
Message Number 16970
>No, Sarasota is HUGE!
Tampa is HUGE! Atlanta is just a mutant life form. I figure once you
know all the streets it's time to move on. I can find my way around
every part of Sarasota except for Siesta Key...
===========
From: RUFUS
To: TURTLE
Subject: 100 years old
Date & Time: 05/21/91 19:35:10
Message Number 16971
Umm...I dunno...whenever sounds cool to me. In 7 days I'll be out of
high school, then I spend 5 or more years in college, then work, then
retire, then die. Damn...I'm gonna be busy. Hope I have time to
watch some movies. We were thinking of having some full color
membership badges made just to freak people at other cons.
Who's the FGOH? GOH? Artist GOH? I'm the Mandatory Guest of Honor,
as usual. Will we be having an artist draw off and auction after that?
===========
From: CHARLES DITTELL
To: DRAGONFLY
Subject: relig & logic??
Date & Time: 05/21/91 20:38:14
Message Number 16972
Heheh....I think we can keep from preaching, and keep the "preachers"
out of this discussion. One way I see the problem of using "useful", may
well be it's non-absoluteness (yes, I know I argued its opposite
before! So what!?)...what is useful to someone or to some group, may
NOT be useful to others. The German Nazi movement was useful to many
(I say this as a partly Jewish person who lost 10 2nd cousins in WWII) -
trains ran on time, employment up, most Germans becoming well-focused
on working together. It was certainly NOT useful to Jews, Catholics,
Blacks, and later Allied Forces. Some medications are useful to some
patients and deadly to others. Re religion, it _appears_ to be useful
to some (perhaps many), but my feeling is that the further from "truth"
one gets, the less useful in the intermediate to long run the idea,
perception, belief becomes (to humanity in general). What
blows me away is that some people still believe that religions "prove"
supernatural events occur. A friend believes the universe began in
4004 BC. No use telling him about how dates are figured; he just says
that "God set it up" to make it _look_ like the earth and universe are
older. Whew!
===========
From: CHARLES DITTELL
To: DRAGONFLY
Subject: Picnick: 6/7/91
Date & Time: 05/21/91 20:45:12
Message Number 16973
Great: let's go for it: but I gotta get a calendar: It may actually
be June 6th! (The mind is the second thing to go.....)
===========
From: CHARLES DITTELL
To: DRAGONFLY
Subject: logic & relig??
Date & Time: 05/21/91 20:46:24
Message Number 16974
It holds together nicely (re actions affecting God). The problem is
that we're dealing with those really weird creatures, human beings.
They DON'T always act as their beliefs indicate they should! There
are MANY God-believers who believe their actions affect God - and
their own futures - and yet blithely (nice word, eh?) perform actions
which will _insure_ their going straight to Hell (their belief system)..
That's the problem with humans: even their beliefs don't consistently
guide them....
===========
From: CHARLES DITTELL
To: DRAGONFLY
Subject: If I were...
Date & Time: 05/21/91 20:49:48
Message Number 16975
Re health care, gotta say you're wrong. First of all, the costs of
health care are NOT determined (well, less than 5%) by lawsuits.
That accounts for an insignificant costs. And "good" doctors should
be determined by ensuring good medical schools who will only graduate
those who demonstrate appropriate competence. Look at Canada, England,
many other countries: not that they don't have funding problems for
health care, but the free health care system works! The real reason
for escalating health care costs is the costs of modern diagnoses and
treatment. NMR's are outrageously expensive. Brand name medications
are incredible: I needed an antibiotic (available for at least the
last 10 years), which costs $150 a month!! And no generic!! Therefore
no competition!! My bro is a bigshot hospital finance person - I'll
talk some more with him re costs (tho of course hospital health care
is only one facet of it). BTW and only slightly related, have you ever
wondered why health insurance almost invariably covers dental checkups
but NEVER medical checkups?? Wouldn't one think that they would help
keep longrange medical costs down by catching disease earlier??
If there were free health care, where would the "good" doctors go? Maybe
some would go into research, a couple, perhaps, overseas (but they
don't want to leave this country any more than you or I, even when we
disagree with a variety of political/social trends).... We know that
private practice of professionals is just as much based on greed as
private industry - and I for one don't think medicine should be.
Your comments?
===========
From: CHARLES DITTELL
To: TURTLE
Subject: relig & logic??
Date & Time: 05/21/91 20:59:45
Message Number 16976
Yes, for that and a myriad of other reasons.
===========
From: CHARLES DITTELL
To: TURTLE
Subject: Relig & Logic 2
Date & Time: 05/21/91 21:02:11
Message Number 16977
Well put. Also put well.
Well, well....
===========
From: CHARLES DITTELL
To: THE SPECIALIST
Subject: breaking habits
Date & Time: 05/21/91 21:05:10
Message Number 16978
Hehehe...not rambling...tho I'm not sure the "principle of the thing"
is the issue. Air filtration is not necessarily that expensive, and
there's the theoretical vs the actual (much as we don't have the
right to shout "fire", etc...tho we have free speech)....I think that
the bottom line is that we're all gonna die anyway, so we might as well
discuss more interesting topics: how 'bout it's so tough to describe
the taste of chocolate? (I'm goin' for some right now!!)
===========
From: DRAGONFLY
To: ALL
Subject: Mosquito God
Date & Time: 05/21/91 21:13:04
Message Number 16979
Okay, I have something to ask y'all: How much do you know about
mosquitos? And why do they love my room so much?`
What's actually happening: About seven o'clock at night, my door is
COVERED with mosquitos. They do not move unless you jar them; they
just sit there.
Tonight, I forgot about the mosquitoes, and left the door open. At
nine tonight, saw TENS (maybe a hundred) of them, all climbing on
one wall of my room, a wall near the door. The wall is covered with
the same wallpaper that the rest of the room has; but THAT particular
wall is the only one with mosquitoes. They haven't bothered my food.
Just the one wall. (Made it really easy for me to Raid them.)
Any ideas of what they're after?
//Dragonfly//
===========
From: DRAGONFLY
To: THE SPECIALIST
Subject: breaking habits
Date & Time: 05/21/91 21:18:12
Message Number 16980
As Turtle mentioned, the FDA has no power over tobacco. That's
in another agency's power. And again, as Turtle mentioned, they're
unprofitable. Capitalism at work! (Won't smokers put up with the
extra cost -- so they're more socially acceptable?)
Outlawing should be unnecessary. As soon as smokers realize how
much their friends prefer no-smoke cigarettes, they'll switch -- from
peer pressure.
//Dragonfly//
===========
From: DRAGONFLY
To: RUFUS
Subject: 100 years old
Date & Time: 05/21/91 21:21:50
Message Number 16981
>In 7 days I'll be out of high school...
Congratulations!
> We were thinking of having some full color membership badges made
> just to freak people at other cons.
>>> YES! <<< Do it. If we can, try to get Maggie as the Artist
Guest of Honor.
You know, I was just thinking. I was wandering through the Sarasota
Main Shopping Plaza. There are three stores operational there. Ya
know, if you give me a date, I could dress REAL impressively, and ask
the *nice* manager if we might be able to rent one of the empty stores
for a night. I guarentee it'll be REAL cheap. (They're desperate.)
//Dragonfly//
===========
From: DRAGONFLY
To: CHARLES DITTELL
Subject: relig & logic??
Date & Time: 05/21/91 21:27:19
Message Number 16982
> The further from "truth" one gets, the less useful in the intermediate
> to long run the idea, perception, belief becomes (to humanity in
> general.)
(I'm not even going to ask what "truth" is. Verifiable reality?)
> A friend believes the universe began in 4004 BC.
Hold it right there. In his world, he has a reasonably complete,
non-contradictory system. (I'll WAGER that if I hadn't thrown in this
parenthetical aside, Turtle would jumpin to this discussion, demanding
that I prove creationism to be true, that I explain the dinosaurs within
the system, and that I counter-explain every scientific detail that
points to a much older universe. All I say to that: God made it that
way.)
What are the faults with it? Unlike with evolutionism, one cannot
make any predictions about the future. Creationism says that at one
point, God created the universe very close to the way things are today.
On the other hand, evolution can make a prediction: that creatures will
grow better at survival with time. (Note: there is a school of thought
which says that God set the wheels of life in motion, some unspecified
time ago, and is now using evolution. This theory makes the same
predictions as evolutionism...)
Anyway, what does this have to do with our subject: "Is religion
'useful'?" Simple: religion can hurt and help scientific development.
How can it help scientific development? All science assumes the
universe has an order; that experiments are repeatable; and that there
are a finite number of laws which if discovered would explain
everything. These assumptions actually came out of Christian ideas
(although, as Turtle will invariably point out, they can exist
independently of religion.)
> What blows me away is that some people still believe that religions
> "prove" supernatural events occur.
That's another topic entirely. I've never heard a convincing proof
that supernatural events DON'T occur. (Continued next message.)
===========
From: DRAGONFLY
To: CHARLES DITTELL
Subject: relig & logic??
Date & Time: 05/21/91 21:45:05
Message Number 16983
(continued from previous message)
Yes, I'm skeptical of anyone who makes claims of supernatural
events; but I don't utterly rule them out. I'll do my best to debunk
anyone who claims, say, ESP -- but not because I don't believe it could
happen. I'd do it because the vast majority of people who have claimed
something like that have been fakes.
Oh yes -- about the German Nazi movement. I remember in my World
History course that Naziism actually helped Germany from its depression,
but Fascism actually hurt Italy. Mussolini made things look better:
the trains were on time for the only part of Italian history. But it
didn't improve the GNP.
//Dragonfly//
===========
From: DRAGONFLY
To: CHARLES DITTELL
Subject: logic & relig??
Date & Time: 05/21/91 21:50:25
Message Number 16984
Nope! They simply believe God can be bribed, later... by really
LOOKING repentant at Church on Sunday. Or, they think that God's
not really looking -- or that God will just allow them this "one
time."
Sure, there's a large number of hypocrites in Christianity. But
they also figure they have (or will have) a fire escape.
//Dragonfly//
===========
From: DRAGONFLY
To: CHARLES DITTELL
Subject: Nat. Healthcare
Date & Time: 05/21/91 21:54:31
Message Number 16985
My comments:
I'm somewhat out of my league, here. But I'd really like to talk
with some doctors, and ask them what their biggest expenses are...
then see what can be done about cutting costs, BEFORE a 'national
health care' would be set up. Making it nationalized will NEVER
solve the problem of the expenses of health care; all it will do is
make it much more difficult for there to be any real reform.
Again, I'd like to know if Canada and England really have no problems
paying for the national health care. Remembering that they have a
MUCH reduced militia (even on a per person basis), I remember that
England has a much higher tax rate than we do. (Even after the reforms
of Maggie Thatcher.)
You came up with one of the problems with the cost of medicine: no
competition! When it's something as important as your life, there MUST
be competition between companies.
By the way, speak for yourself when you say you don't want to leave
the country. I HAVE lived in other countries, and have no intentions
of staying in this country the rest of my life. My Spanish is good, and
I'm learning German... that opens up much of Europe and South America
for any business.
//Dragonfly//
===========
From: SINDAR
To: ALL
Subject: blah
Date & Time: 05/21/91 22:35:10
Message Number 16986
Hey all, thought I'd interupt your wonderful conversation with
some of my senseless babbling. Welppers, I've come, I'm here and I'm
well, I'm here....maybe, just maybe I'll move my dog house to this
section of the town.....blah, must be going, gotta check out the
rest of de board....talk at ye all later.
Sindar
===========
From: SAAVIK
To: THE GRUNT
Subject: Star Trek Quote
Date & Time: 05/21/91 23:37:58
Message Number 16987
TG> That's "One Damn Minute Admiral."
Opps. did I misquote? Ahem! Well, so you know your ST dialog... very
good..... (grumble grumble)
===========
From: SAAVIK
To: JONBOY
Subject: back...
Date & Time: 05/21/91 23:39:32
Message Number 16988
Glad to see you back, Jonboy.... Hope you weave your way through these
obvious frustrations.....
===========
From: SAAVIK
To: CHARLES DITTELL
Subject: Cooking/housewk
Date & Time: 05/21/91 23:44:28
Message Number 16989
How do you get Cockatiels to mate????? Well, heh heh... it's kind of
like this... you get two cockatiels (of obvious sex, of course) and put
them in a cage together with a breeding box attached. You introduce them
to each other.... Mr. Bird meet Mrs. Bird and visa versa,... if they lik
(that's like) each other, they'll do the rest. Once in a while, the two
birds simply will want nothing to do with each other, but most of the
time, they are more than happy to cooperate.
When the babies are about 2 to 2 1/2 weeks old (little fuzzy bald heade
things) you take them out and handfeed them. I love being a bird mommy.
At about three weeks old.... they turn into these creatures that look
like they ought to be a Jim Henson creation or something... REALLY ugly.
They look like a Dinosaur....
===========
From: SAAVIK
To: CHARLES DITTELL
Subject: beliefs
Date & Time: 05/21/91 23:49:35
Message Number 16990
I have NO earthly idea of what I would do about the Nat'l Debt if I were
the president. On the Erosion of Freedom, I would certainly address that
topic... but having never been the President before, I don't know where
it would start.... there's a lot of different sides to that subject.
Music, for instance.... One one hand, I feel that people should be
allowed to write, produce, publish, record (and whatever other verbs I
can come up with) and listen to whatever kind of music they like.....
HOWEVER, as a parent... I am extremely alarmed by some of the lyrics
and subject matter that Rap music (Ok, rock n roll is guilty too but
Rap....geeesh) anyway, Rap music is coming out with. It is sooo graphic.
I mean, my 7 year old hears these songs, then starts singing them....,
in many cases, he doesn't even prounounce the words right, he doesn't
even know what they mean.... and when he DOES find out... then it's this
big giggle session and he'll do it just to annoy me.... "Opps, Mom. I
forgot!!!!"
My 3 year old sings constantly..... and she makes up the words, but some
of those songs...... she'll sing the tune and hit a word like fuck and
she won't even realize it... she'll say truck or something.... and I
know she isn't really understanding it... but the person in the aisle
way next to us at Kmart sure doesn't understand that.
Um...Saavik is rambling. Yet....again.
===========
From: SAAVIK
To: HACMAN
Subject: True Freinds
Date & Time: 05/21/91 23:59:59
Message Number 16991
HM> He did not want to continue with the friendship, why beat a dead
horse?
Why? For you're own peace of mind, that's why.... it'll continue to
bother you until you know exactly why he chose to end the friendship.
===========
From: SAAVIK
To: HACMAN
Subject: bones
Date & Time: 05/22/91 00:01:40
Message Number 16992
Not all "real bones" splinter. Poultry bones will (DO NOT GIVE THESE TO
ANY ANIMAL) splinter when they are cooked, small porkchop bones can be
easily swallowed and cause problems... but a nice big hambones will give
a dog hours of enjoyment and it's very healthy for them. Ask your
veteranarian...
===========
From: SAAVIK
To: HACMAN
Subject: breaking habits
Date & Time: 05/22/91 00:04:18
Message Number 16993
AAAAAhhh, I gotta confession..... I'm smoking..... right as I type this.
I cut way down, but I've gradually crept back up there. Oh, damn......
one of these days....
===========
From: SAAVIK
To: DRAGONFLY
Subject: beliefs
Date & Time: 05/22/91 00:23:19
Message Number 16994
Elvis is alive eh? Lost a hundred pounds, eh? Is doing miracles eh?
Hmmmmm, you've got good drugs and YOU aren't sharing.....
===========
From: SAAVIK
To: DRAGONFLY
Subject: beliefs
Date & Time: 05/22/91 00:24:18
Message Number 16995
Yes, the news on the radio is sketchy but they DO have your attention
when you are in the car..... I just wish they'd adress some more
international subjects and not yap about the lady that found the boa
contrictor in her garden yestarday (for example)... Of course, I know
that there are radio stations devoted to news and I'm sure they are much
more informative.... they also have those annoying talk shows though.
===========
From: SAAVIK
To: KNIGHT OWL
Subject: verbal abuse
Date & Time: 05/22/91 00:28:45
Message Number 16996
The scars from verbal abuse simply don't show on the skin... they show
on the heart and soul....... and they don't heal as well as a physical
wound, and you never know when they are going to reopen and fester.
===========
From: SAAVIK
To: TURTLE
Subject: beliefs
Date & Time: 05/22/91 00:30:38
Message Number 16997
OH? Have YOU seen Elvis too? Did he and Jesus drop by for lunch? Tell
me, are they still hanging around with Jimmi.. you know, Jimmi Hendrix.
EVERYTIME I open a Nat'l Enquirer, someone else has seen Elvis.. WAH!
I wanna see him!!!!
===========
From: SAAVIK
To: DRAGONFLY
Subject: relig & logic??
Date & Time: 05/22/91 00:34:32
Message Number 16998
Religion and logic.... logic and religion.... boy, there ya go again..
beating that poor dead horse to a pulp....... What you two have said
sounds very intelligent..... but it's way over my head... I tried to
follow what you were saying..... but I guess my attention span is shot.
Is there anyway to summarize this for this not so brain endowed Vulcan?
===========
From: SAAVIK
To: SINDAR
Subject: blah
Date & Time: 05/22/91 00:40:06
Message Number 16999
ARG! Lock that dog door....... don't let that puppy out!!!!!!
Hi, Sin......
===========
From: KNIGHT OWL
To: DRAGONFLY
Subject: verbal abuse
Date & Time: 05/22/91 01:00:23
Message Number 17000
I really should havestated somethwhen I retorted at you. (sorry...)
Marraiges and dysfunctional families are 2 of the many places that
verbal abuse can be found.
An example of scwould be from long-term intimidation.
An example of that would be a parent saying something like "you'll never
amount to anything worthwhile."
Low self-esteem can magnify the effec, even if only because thon lets it
.
I hope that you understand the illustration that I've given above.
L8R! (if Ma bell doesn't find her wire cutters)
Knight Owl
===========
From: KNIGHT OWL
To: DRAGONFLY
Subject: Mosquito God
Date & Time: 05/22/91 01:17:50
Message Number 17001
Mosquitos are attracted to light. Could it be that the one wall was well
lit?
Just a theory...
===========
From: KNIGHT OWL
To: SAAVIK
Subject: verbal abuse
Date & Time: 05/22/91 01:24:13
Message Number 17002
True.... very true.
===========
From: KNIGHT OWL
To: TURTLE
Subject: Stay.....
Date & Time: 05/22/91 10:13:08
Message Number 17003
I can fly!
I talked to Ma Bell this morning and worked out a payment schedule.
Oooooh, it feels so good that I got a 'stay of execution'. *]:)
L8R! (fer sure!)
Knight Owl
===========
From: THE SPECIALIST
To: CHARLES DITTELL
Subject: breaking habits
Date & Time: 05/22/91 12:03:56
Message Number 17004
CHAS>...we're all gonna die anyway, so we might as well discuss more
C>interesting topic
Fine with me...
C>How about chocolate?
Y'know, it's funny you mentioned that, I had a craving for some chocolat
myself, today.
===========
From: THE SPECIALIST
To: DRAGONFLY
Subject: Mosquito God
Date & Time: 05/22/91 12:06:46
Message Number 17005
DFy> Any idea what they're after?
Submitted for your approval...a man with a wall that attracts
mosquitos. You are now entering: The Twilight Zone.
===========
From: THE SPECIALIST
To: DRAGONFRY
Subject: Wesley?
Date & Time: 05/22/91 12:20:43
Message Number 17006
So who is supposed to write the encounter between your DenChar and
The DenGuards?
===========
From: THE SPECIALIST
To: ALL
Subject: And so it goes
Date & Time: 05/22/91 12:27:31
Message Number 17007
The former pirate's ship first's mate sighs, and turns around to
walk back to the bar.
"Y'know," he says, sitting back down next to the bunnymorph,
"I used to know this cute little storyboard, used to be in this
place called the Wyvern's Den?" He looks up to see if she's
paying attention. She is, so he continues. "It was a great place.
People posted there all the time, and the thing ran like a bat
outta hell. It even got transferred over to another board, eh,"
he looks at the ceiling as if concentrating, "it was called aLTER
rEALITY. Yup. That was a nice place, too, and people still loved
the storyboard, but then they got cocky, and tried to make it
a national echo, and it just died." The bunny yawns, and so he
decides to wrap it up. "Anyway, I just wish that it was still around.
It would be nice to visit..." he lifts his glass up. "Could I
have another one of these, please?"
===========
From: DRAGONFLY
To: SINDAR
Subject: blah
Date & Time: 05/22/91 12:50:03
Message Number 17008
Welppers, welcome, glad yer here, and glad yer well, here. Go ahead
and move yer dog house here.
//Dragonfly//
===========
From: DRAGONFLY
To: SAAVIK
Subject: beliefs
Date & Time: 05/22/91 12:52:25
Message Number 17009
Okay. You're saying that people should listen (etc.) to any
music people want; BUT you're saying that "children" shouldn't
be able to listen to music with certain ideas.
Okay: If you were President, would you try to get a law passed that
forbids "children" from listening to "certain types of music"? And, if
so, what would determine whether or not a child could listen to the
music? Merely containing certain words? Describing certain concepts?
(Just curious: What concepts? If all you said was "sex," would an
child be allowed to listen to an extremely graphic song about a multiple
murderer?) And what determines who is a "child"? Age? Parental
consent under a certain age?
If I were President, I'd keep my hands FAR from any law like that.
//Dragonfly//
===========
From: DRAGONFLY
To: SAAVIK
Subject: breaking habits
Date & Time: 05/22/91 12:58:22
Message Number 17010
>I gotta confession..... I'm smoking..... right as I type this.
Ah, two steps forward; one step back. Keep trying to cut back,
you'll make it. Then QUIT.
//Dragonfly//
===========
From: DRAGONFLY
To: SAAVIK
Subject: beliefs
Date & Time: 05/22/91 13:02:26
Message Number 17011
> I know that there are radio stations devoted to news and I'm sure
> they are much more informative.... they also have those annoying
> talk shows though.
I'm a debate addict. When I can't get enough of it on this board,
I turn to Rush Limbaugh. The man is SO wrong on SO many issues, that
I can happily yell at him on the radio for hours. (Unfortunately, he
doesn't respond.)
I love those talk shows, though. To each their own?
//Dragonfly//
===========
From: DRAGONFLY
To: SAAVIK
Subject: beliefs
Date & Time: 05/22/91 13:05:33
Message Number 17012
"When in doubt... it's Elvis!"
--- Slogan from a button.
//Dragonfly//
===========
From: DRAGONFLY
To: SAAVIK
Subject: relig & logic??
Date & Time: 05/22/91 13:10:29
Message Number 17013
> Is there anyway to summarize this for this not so brain endowed
> Vulcan?
Where? I see only intelligent Vulcans around here.
It's been mostly a debate about words, and semantics. The three
words debated have been "logical," "true" (sometimes "correct"), and
"useful." I've been defining the words in this way:
Logical: Applying logic to a set of assumptions. It makes NO
difference how reasonable the assumptions are, so long as
good logic has been applied. My example:
All Armadilloes are Green.
God is an Armadillo.
-------------------------------
God is Green.
This is a perfectly logical sequence, although I'd be hard pressed
to find anyone who either believes the assumptions or the
conclusion.
True (or "correct"): Able to be verified. It's a true statement
that my shirt is blue, because I can verify it. It's not a true
statement that, say, a pink elephant exists. That does NOT mean
the same as "there does not exist a pink elephant," though -- it
just means that it has not been verified that a pink elephant
exists.
Useful: An assumption which, though it may not be verifiable -- and,
indeed, might be wrong -- still explains a portion of reality.
For example, a useful assumption would be: Water boils at 100
degrees Centigrade. It's true, here in Florida, but not in
Denver.
(continued, next message.)
===========
From: DRAGONFLY
To: SAAVIK
Subject: Page 2
Date & Time: 05/22/91 13:23:50
Message Number 17014
Now, I expect both Turtle and Chaz to jump over me when I write
how I've seen their opinions:
Turtle jumped into the middle of the discussion with the quote:
"That's why religious discussions are not logical." (I.E. They're not
verifiable, therefore they're not logical.) All I've been saying is
that a religious discussion CAN be logical (i.e. it can have logic
being applied to it), but the assumptions might not be verifiable.
Chaz and I have been hammering out our differences of definition.
He (and Turtle, I might add) seem to think "logical" means the same
thing as "true." In other words, something isn't "logical" according
to him, if the assumptions aren't verifiable.
(One thing that surprises me: No one has tried to jump on me for
saying that something wouldn't be "true" if it's not verifiable. Praise
Occam for that!)
--------------------------------
There's another discussion with Turtle that seems to have petered
out. It was (at one point) about different moral viewpoints.
//Dragonfly//
===========
From: DRAGONFLY
To: KNIGHT OWL
Subject: verbal abuse
Date & Time: 05/22/91 13:31:50
Message Number 17015
Yeah, there's a LOT of verbal abuse in marriages and dysfunctional
families. If you're interested, some really good guides to breaking
the circle of verbal abuse are in the books: "The Gentle Art of
Verbal Self-Defense" by Dr. Elgin.
That example you gave was pretty blatant. A more subtle example of
verbal abuse would be, "If you loved me, you wouldn't want to go
bowling."
//Dragonfly//
===========
From: DRAGONFLY
To: KNIGHT OWL
Subject: Mosquito God
Date & Time: 05/22/91 13:34:25
Message Number 17016
>Mosquitos are attracted to light.
Nope! The wall on the outside was no better lit than any other wall
around. When the mosquitoes found their way inside, the wall they were
on was very near a light, yes -- but there are two other
lights nearby (less as bright) which they ignored. The only thing I can
think of: they were all on the wall above the sink. (Not in the sink,
though.)
//Dragonfly//
===========
From: DRAGONFLY
To: THE SPECIALIST
Subject: Mosquito God
Date & Time: 05/22/91 13:37:04
Message Number 17017
Jes' trying to get rid of the buggers, without using poison. That's
all. When you don't leave food out, ants don't come. What am I doing
to tell the mosquito brains "CHOW TIME!" -- on a wall?
//Dragonfly//
===========
From: THUMPER ONE
To: TURTLE
Subject: Warren Peace
Date & Time: 05/22/91 13:47:37
Message Number 17018
Oooops! Oversight on my Part Turtle. I dropped by to Buffer the New BBS
List and Saw that I'm MIA. MY Fault, I never sent you the new number. As
you may or may not know, We moved to a new Phone Area, soooo here it is.
Warren Peace BBS
813-922-6542
24 Hours, 3/12/24Bd
Furry, Funky, And Frazzled
On-Line Games,
Separate Message Areas For Adults and Minors
(But no "R" or "XXX" rated areas.)
And a Cute, Grey Fuzzy Bunny As Sysop!
NO FILE AREAS OTHER THAN TEXT FILES AND ASCII PICS.
(Guess who ran out of HD Space)
Give It a Call...
Thank you!
Thumper One
===========
From: THUMPER ONE
To: SAAVIK
Subject: Elvis
Date & Time: 05/22/91 13:56:59
Message Number 17019
S>....Elvis.. WAH! I wanna see him!!!!
So Drop by the house some time, and I'll sing "Hound Dog" for you,
It's hard for me to meet all the fans. Miracles are over rated. I just
Humm a few bars, say "Thankyouverymuch" and Zip back into A Ronco-u-ARF-
Em Dement-sion Portal Given to me by the space aliens...
Thumpelvis
===========
From: THUMPER ONE
To: DRAGONFLY
Subject: SinPuppy
Date & Time: 05/22/91 14:01:58
Message Number 17020
Th Dog's here too? Nifty! Just Pet himat the base of his tail and he'll
Whimper for you. Oh and Try not to Excite him to much, He'll piddle all
over the landscape. Hi Sindarella! :) shall we ARF a bit? Naw maybe not
here, To many Watchers....
Da' Bunny
===========
From: THUMPER ONE
To: DRAGONFLY
Subject: Smokers
Date & Time: 05/22/91 14:04:41
Message Number 17021
Smokers Should be strung up by their nostrils till they repent their
Smoking sins to the great Armadillo Goddess. After they repent, They
/MIGHT/ be permitted to rejoin this enlightened society of ours...
Taking yet ANOTHER drag,
Thumpy
===========
From: THUMPER ONE
To: DRAGONFLY
Subject: Religious Logic
Date & Time: 05/22/91 14:08:14
Message Number 17022
Ok D-Fly, Lemme Test this out...
All Rabbits are Fuzzy.
/I/ Am a rabbit.
there Fur,
/I/ Am Fuzzy.
that would work if not for the fact that I'm Rapidly losing my Fur.
What do you think? If I Lose my Fur, will I no longer be a rabbit?
Or Will I simply be a Bald Bunny?
Implants! Implants! I /NEED/ Implants!!!
===========
From: TURTLE
To: DRAGONFLY
Subject: relig & logic??
Date & Time: 05/22/91 16:19:18
Message Number 17023
>Religious arguments A R E 'logical' - - you have assumptions, ...
No, religious arguments borrow the techniques of logic and put their
statements into logical terms. That's not the same thing as saying
they're logical. Any argument that can be phrased as a syllogism is
not necessarily 'logical' because of it.
===========
From: TURTLE
To: THE SPECIALIST
Subject: I got it...
Date & Time: 05/22/91 16:21:30
Message Number 17024
>You sure? I'm drivin...
Positive.
Hey, speaking of which, my Bug will be back in action soon...just
today picked up a rebuilt transaxle for it...heh, heh...
===========
From: TURTLE
To: RUFUS
Subject: 100 years old
Date & Time: 05/22/91 16:23:07
Message Number 17025
>Who's the FGOH?
Uh...Saavik?
>GOH?
Ya got me.
>Artist GOH?
Jimmy Chin, of course...
===========
From: TURTLE
To: CHARLES DITTELL
Subject: Relig & Logic 2
Date & Time: 05/22/91 16:27:09
Message Number 17026
Well put. Also put well.
Well, I'm glad you agree with me... :)
===========
From: TURTLE
To: DRAGONFLY
Subject: Mosquito God
Date & Time: 05/22/91 16:28:12
Message Number 17027
>Any ideas of what they're after?
Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Sorry, I'm not sure I can
really get a grasp on what motivates a mosquito...you're talking about
an animal that's about as sophisticated as a windup toy, so it shouldn't
be
===========
From: THE SPECIALIST
To: TURTLE
Subject: I got it...
Date & Time: 05/22/91 20:22:26
Message Number 17039
TS>You sure? I'm drivin'...
T>Positive.
Ok...but I need you to sign this waiver first...
T>Hey, speaking of which, my Bug will be back in action soon...just
T>today picked up a rebuild transaxle for it...heh, heh...
Awright! But you're too late...Steve already got himself a fulltime
ride...
===========
From: THE METAL HEAD
To: ALL
Subject: Pentacon
Date & Time: 05/22/91 21:05:01
Message Number 17040
When is the next Pentacon?
===========
From: KNIGHT OWL
To: DRAGONFLY
Subject: verbal abuse
Date & Time: 05/22/91 23:40:37
Message Number 17042
Yeah, I know that my examples were pretty extreme. They were the only
ones that I could think of at the time.
As for the 'If you love me, you wouldn't go bowling' aspect; 'd chalk
that up to the immature intimidation category of verbal abuse.
L8R!
Knight Owl
(come to think of it, what form of erbal abuse *is* mature? )
===========
From: KNIGHT OWL
To: DRAGONFLY
Subject: Mosquito God
Date & Time: 05/22/91 23:45:17
Message Number 17043
I'd say then, that the lttle buggers were attracted to:
A> The residue from the kitchen enviroment (fumes, etc. in the paper)
B> the moisture in the area.
===========
From: DRAGONFLY
To: THUMPER ONE
Subject: SinPuppy
Date & Time: 05/23/91 01:39:05
Message Number 17045
I've already discovered that he likes being scratched behind the
ears, and under the chin. And he gets walked hourly. Whether he
wants to or not.
//Dragonfly//
===========
From: DRAGONFLY
To: THUMPER ONE
Subject: Smokers
Date & Time: 05/23/91 01:40:54
Message Number 17046
Saavik said she wanted to quit. Jes' giving her encouraging words.
Hmmm... maybe the Pavlov method will work? Wire up a box of her
favorite brand o' cigarrette with, say, 10,000 volts of current and