💾 Archived View for station.martinrue.com › krixano › 3979cd927d98435a85e11cc7856465f5 captured on 2022-07-16 at 14:49:01. Gemini links have been rewritten to link to archived content
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
The concept of original sin is interesting, especially how Judaism and Christianity debate on the nuances of sin being passed down. There are verses in the Bible that suggest some form of passing down, while other's suggest the exact opposite. For example, Christians use the below verse to show Original Sin:
Exodus 20:5 (ESV) - "You shall not bow down to [idols] or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me."
They connect this to the fall of Adam and Eve as well as the general trend of sinning, repentance, and forgiveness throughout the Bible.
[1/3]
2 months ago · 👍 eph, c10h14n2, arman
@mc Ah, I already know about that book. I watched the 1-season CBS TV Show adaptation of it, lol. · 1 month ago
Okay, you asked for it: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/495395.The_Year_of_Living_Biblically · 1 month ago
@mc I'm not a jew .... yet :D
I tried to make sure I didn't speak as if I was a jew, because I haven't converted yet. But I am definitely interested in Judaism - I have this sense that it's where I belong. I think I will convert when the time is right (when I feel like I've learned enough and am sure), and when I'm able to go to a Synagogue consistently. From what I understand, the conversion process can be a bit long, depending on prior knowledge.
Anyways, I'm always interested in recommended books! :) · 1 month ago
Not trying to label you (I detest labels). Just, if you're a Jew I would recommend you the reading of a funny book about Jewish biblical living. · 1 month ago
So, if I understood right, you're a Jew @krixano. · 1 month ago
@krixano Thanks for your answer 🙂 · 1 month ago
@adou2 While I tend more towards the Jewish view, a very interesting idea comes out of the Christian view that I appreciate the most - the idea that God come into humanity to be in solidarity with humans. He made himself human so that He can experience what it is to be human and to suffer as a human. Therefore He has compassion for humans because he "suffered with" them. It gives greater meaning to a personal God, one who suffers with His people. It's very beautiful.
While I really really appreciate this view, for me I don't believe this view in the same way, because what I get from Judaism is an anthropopathic, emotional God, and it's just as beautiful. · 1 month ago
@adou2 I do understand and appreciate Christian views of sin as well though. The need for a Messiah or Savior is rooted in the idea that humans are inherently sinful people (which is certainly supported by history, lol). Paul then analogizes Jesus' death as a payment for human sin, and as a way to free people from sin in the letter of Romans.
I do think the Jewish view has been misconstrued by some Christians to make it seem like Jews are trying to *earn* their way into heaven by following all of the "laws" (mitzvot) and being perfectly law-abiding. Rather, sin is merely wrong action and you make up for it and then change your ways, and God will accept that. · 1 month ago
@adou2 I believe in the more Jewish conception of Sin (although, I think the conceptions between Jews and some Christians might be more similar than once thought). So, that I believe that sin is (in more traditional terms) falling away from the right path, or doing something harmful to God or someone else. I think humans can sin, but they can choose not to sin (an important distinction from most Protestant Christians), and when one sins, they can repent directly to God and/or the people you sinned against, and this repentance must involve regret and ultimately change of ones ways.
Finally, I do not believe that people must be Jews or Christians to be righteous people. · 1 month ago
What's a/the sin, according to you? · 1 month ago
Ooh, if you take the 'following the incorrect path' to its endpoint, you reach Adam and Eve disobeying God in Paradise. 🤔
[2/2] · 2 months ago
@krixano, don’t worry lol, I think swatting down religious stereotypes is a noble goal and one that people ought to do more often. There's a sort of background protestantism in the United States (and the Anglophone sphere in general I guess); I mostly wanted to add on to something that felt remarkably familiar.
The big difference I see between the Jewish understanding and the Orthodox Christian understanding of ancestral sin is how its transmitted, i.e. does it come from following the incorrect path of their fathers (cf. golden calf in the wilderness) or does it come from a change in human nature after the fall?
[1/2] · 2 months ago
@eph Hopefully my goal with these posts gets across well enough. For me it's not about evangelization, but religious education and breaking down stereotypes of religion in general. A lot of people in the US that have had bad experiences with one religion tend to stereotype every religion based on that experience, which kinda sucks. I have some family members that do this. · 2 months ago
@eph Yeah, I didn't go much into the Christian side of things, especially regarding how the doctrine of Sin works with Jesus' death and resurrection, because I thought people would be more familiar with that than with the Jewish view. Thanks for pointing out the Eastern Christian tradition! We don't go too much into the eastern side of things - mostly Catholic and Protestant, lol.
The Jewish view doesn't emphasize "guilt", that's just what the JPS uses to translate for some reason. Here's Exodus 20:5 from Jewish Modern Orthodox Translation (Koren Magerman Ed):
"For those who hate Me, I hold the descendants to account for the sins of the fathers ..." · 2 months ago
In the Eastern Christian traditions, 'Original Sin' (also called ancestral sin) is understood to be a tendency or ability to sin, rather than *a* sin that's been passed along. There's not really an emphasis on 'guilt' per se, rather on potential spiritual illness, i.e. people can get sick physically and spiritually. That doesn't mean that guilt doesn't appear or is unimportant, but rather that guilt can be a symptom of an illness, not just the illness itself (which is the inclination towards a particular passion). · 2 months ago
This shows that it is important to take the whole Bible into context. It also shows that translations can sometimes be colored by interpretation, depending on the translation - even translations that tend to be more literal.
Finally, within Judaism, as far as I understand it, Original Sin does not exist. Rather, parents affect their children, and if their children willfully follow in the path of the parents, then the sin is "passed down". But, if one does not follow in their parents' footsteps, then the sin does not pass down.
[4/3] (Yes, I miscalculated, lol) · 2 months ago
Other verses like this one also show this balance/nuance:
Ezekiel 18:20 (ESV) - "The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself."
Now, one other thing to be aware of is that while the ESV translated Exodus 20:5 as "punishing the children for the sin of their fathers", the JPS translates this more literally as "visiting the guilt of the parents upon the children", which can have different implications.
[3/3] · 2 months ago
However, within the Jewish tradition, this verse is tempered by the next verse, which some Christians tend not to quote:
Exodus 20:6 (JPS) - "but showing kindness to the thousandth generation of those who love Me and keep My commandments."
Notice the "punishing" (in the ESV) goes to the third or fourth generation, but the kindness goes to the thousandth generation!
[2/3] · 2 months ago