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Subject: (fwd) INTERZINE #1 - A Talk with Jagwire X
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Subject: INTERZINE #1 - A Talk with Jagwire X
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>From wixer!cactus.org!lambada.oit.unc.edu!Mitchell.Porter@cs.utexas.edu Wed Jan 20 04:58:54 1993
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Subject: INTERZINE #1 - A Talk with Jagwire X
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From: Mitchell Porter <wixer!cactus.org!lambada.oit.unc.edu!Mitchell.Porter@cs.utexas.edu>
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INTERZINE #1 --- JAGWIRE X (jagwire@wixer.cactus.org)
Interzine is an irregular e-zine devoted to "interviews in cyberspace".
It may be copied and distributed freely.
This is a chat via IRC with Jagwire X, who recently created
the AUtopia mailing list (send subscription requests to
autopia-request@wixer.cactus.org) to discuss the idea of an
autonomous "New Edge" colony on an ocean-going vessel. He can also be
reached at the CyberSpace Institute BBS @ +1.512.469.0447.
/who #AUtopia
Channel Nickname S User@Host (Name)
#AUtopia Velax H daemon@BRADENVILLE.ANDREW.CMU.EDU
(bblk09.edn.gu.edu.au)
#AUtopia Jagwire X G@ anonymous@mickey.cc.utexas.edu (anonymous)
Velax > Jagwire? this is mitch
Jagwire X > Hey.
Velax > I'm just sending you mail but I guess I can abort that
Velax > Where are you physically?
Jagwire X > Austin, Texas, USA
Jagwire X > And you?
Velax > A computer lab, Griffith University, MT Gravatt campus,
Brisbane, Queensland, Australia
Jagwire X > What time is it? 6.00am or so?
Velax > about 10 or 11 am here, I think..
Velax > So you're in someone's apartment.. your own?.. on a terminal
over a modem, linked to a unix system..
Jagwire X > My apartment. Connect to the University of Texas via. my
modem.
Velax > Right.. I am always curious about the nature of a person's
access to the net, since I suspect that different people "see"
it in very different ways
Jagwire X > Are we interviewing, yet?
Velax > :) good question
Velax > I've got "capture" running
Velax > So I guess this is "raw material" at the very least
Jagwire X > Cool... well I'm ready whenever you are. Yeah. I interviewed
Andy Hawks this way (more or less).
Velax > The first thing I always wanted to ask you, was: what *is* a
jagwire?
Jagwire X > Well, it cam about this way: I was driving a rental car while
tripping on acid and I had been reading a bunch of c-punk lit
at the time and I saw a huge billboard for a jaguar (the car).
And I had been thinking about aliases at the time, and I had
been thinking about aliases at the time, and I have always had
an affinity for cats. So I sort of combined, jaguar/hardwired
into a single polychromatic word.
Velax > aha..
Velax > I had thought maybe a "jagwire" was some sort of "phreaker's
phriend", like a "plumber's helper".. some sort of wire you
stick in a machine to get it to do something
Jagwire X > Hey there's an idea. Maybe I'll invent something like that.
Velax > okay, so that's the jagwire part.. what about the "X"? is that
a Malcolm X reference? or something more generic?
Jagwire X > Oh, oh yeah... also jag <which means more or less to be
wired>. The X is sort of an exclamation. Say, to make it more
severe.
Velax > hmm.. I thought it was meant to connote anonymity, like you had
to keep an alias in order to hide yourself from the forces of
law 'n order..I was just curious because both you and Blade X
have that extra 'x' on the end I thought it might be a .. not a
common thing, not a fashionable thing, but still a symbol
understood by a certain group of people, anyhow, aliases aren't
tremendously important.
Jagwire X > Yeah, Blade X got it from me and Menken X (who was cosysop on
my BBS for a long time). To me and Menken X it is symbol, of
what? Probably cynicism and craziness.
Velax > heh
Velax > Your bbs - that was where you interviewed Andy Hawks?
Jagwire X > Right, yeah. He graciously called it long distance.
Velax > Gee, that must have been expensive
Jagwire X > Probably around $15 American.
Velax > So you run a bbs, and you're also creator of the whole AUtopia
enterprise, which I plan to get to in a moment; do you have any
other "enterprises"?
Jagwire X > Um... well, I am going to try once again to publish my 'zine
(SunDog). My girlfriend just bought a photocopier so... it
will be easier. Other than that I would say just general
wreaking havoc on cyberspace... blah blah blah.
Velax > SunDog, yeah.. I had that word written down somewhere, as
something to ask about.. what would distinguish your zine from
the other underground / new edge zines that are already out
there? would it have a net incarnation as well as a hard copy
one, the way scream baby is the net form of screamin' me-me?
Jagwire X > Yeah, it would be published both hardcopy and on the net. And
it will be small, more like rantings from the bowels of
cyberspace. Scream Baby is the net form of Scream N *me*mes
which is also electronic but quarterly (I think, or at least it
was)
Velax > "rantings from the bowels of cyberspace".. *grin*
Jagwire X > SunDog will probably be written by Menken X and I only.
Velax > Is there a particular view or philosophy you would try to
promote?
Jagwire X > Hmm... yeah, I guess there is. I am trying to promote more
substance to the form that is developing. Seems to me that the
whole New Edge movement lacks any real direction. That's what
the whole AUtopia thing is about, really.
Velax > aha, okay
Velax > Well then, what is *your* philosophy? what do you think it's
all about? you said in the Andy Hawks interview you had your
life turned upside down by Wilson and Leary at age 14, or
something like that..
Jagwire X > Yeah, Wilson and Leary pretty much mangled my soft and mushy
grey matter.
Velax > heh
Velax > AUtopia certainly sounds like a goal in which just about the
whole 'new edge' could participate
Jagwire X > As for AUtopia I certainly hope so. I haven't really done much
with it since Thanksgiving, but I now am getting some free
time.
Velax > Where did the idea of an offshore new-edge colony come from?
Hagbard Celine? "Islands in the Net"?
Jagwire X > Well, actually. No. It may have lodged itself in there
sometime on the past. What really brought it on was a
discussion, similar to this, about the New Edge.
Velax > I guess you just have to look at the world around you and ask,
"where can you *go*, physically, and be free?" and all the land
is taken up by the nation-states, so that leaves space, or the
sea..
Jagwire X > Right, exactly. Where can I go to be free to pursue a life
without being policed by immature children playing with guns.
Velax > And you were saying..? that there was no direction, or no
common goal? [in that discussion, that is]
Jagwire X > In that discussion. Yeah, there seems to be a lack of 'hard'
ideas to work toward, or even 'soft' ideas for that matter.
Velax > Okay, so assuming that at some point in the future theres no
kids with guns around to bother the would-be new-edge
explorers.. what sort of directions are you interested in?
in the last AUtopia draft I saw you had everything from
nanotech to nootropics as topics of research
Jagwire X > Well, yeah, I am interested in technology and how it can be
used to improve the human condition. I am a big fan of
Buckminster Fuller. I agree with him that all life is
technology, and with the possibilities of nanotech and
geneering it will be possible..to actually control the
technology of life. I just want to live long enough for this
to be able to happen. Wilson and Leary convinced me (at 14)
that I wanted to live forever (more or less, or at least until
I get bored).
Velax > Have you ever read fm2030 [fm esfandiary?] are you on the
extropians list?
Jagwire X > I haven't read that. I am on the Extropian essay list.
Velax > But not the extropian general discussion list. Very high
traffic, there.
Velax > esfandiary is another "transhumanist" philosopher
Velax > So.. ideally, AUtopia could be a spawning ground for the
technologies and ways of life in the fuller-wilson-leary sort
of future, where the limits on the human condition are those of
imagination rather than biology?
Jagwire X > Yeah, exactly. A mecca for creation. A veritable cauldron of
technological fertility.
Velax > Well, I hope it happens. So far there's a mailing list and an
irc channel..
Jagwire X > Yeah, me too. The mailing list is somewhat slow these days,
but that will change soon, I hope.
Velax > How do things look to you as far as the logistics
of actually acquiring an old destroyer, or something like that,
& fitting it out with all the communications tech, etc, that
you're after?
Jagwire X > Well, right now they look bleak. I am certain that will
change, I need to spend sometime coordinating with people and
see what's out there. Right now, we are still mulling over the
possibilities. There should be another FAQ out any time now
with more...ideas, possibilities and philosophy attached to it.
Velax > Version 4.0?
Jagwire X > Yeah. 4.0 Maybe even some sketches in GIF format will be
available soon too.
Velax > Have you contacted Pat Salsbury about his "Oceana" proposal at
all? I seem to recall that going out over exi-essay.
Jagwire X > Actually, I was contacted. I have yet to get back to him, but
I am anticipating a mutual exchange of information.
Velax > Yeah.. I only skimmed his proposal, but it was full of the
countercultural technosocial ideas, like Wilson's "trade aids"
also at one time on the main extropians list there was a thread
about "ocean colonization" but I don't know what came of that.
you could ask someone who's a subscriber to check their
archives for that thread.
Jagwire X > It looks more thought out than mine, I'd say. But soon I think
we will be on par. Yeah, I been meaning to subscribe to it
myself
Velax > hmm. I think you had more details about what might be going on,
on board.
Velax > Did you know that R A Wilson in Cosmic Trigger II says that
when he was a young anarchist he was interested in setting up
anarchist colonies in international waters? maybe you should
contact *him* too & see if he has any references or contacts or
ideas that could be relevant.
Jagwire X > Cool, I haven't read Cosmic Trigger II yet.
Velax > The book's actually dedicated to Buckminster Fuller
Jagwire X > Heh, cool, not surprising though.
Velax > So what else specifically does the AUtopia project need now?
apart from subscribers to the mailing list.
Jagwire X > People, who are interested in working on it, gathering info,
coordinating various aspects. Mostly organizational stuff at
this point. Later it will need people (the same ones
hopefully) who want to do physical work.
Velax > So you'd hope to soon reach the point where there is
effectively a specialization amongst the interested people? I
mean, one looking at legal stuff, another at onboard comm tech,
and so on..
Jagwire X > Yeah, I'd like to see different working groups that can get
down to the nitty gritty of various aspects of the project.
Once that happens things will get rolling.
Velax > The previous AUtopia "position papers" or drafts describing the
concept had a neat listing of relevant topics & so on, would
that be how the working groups would come about? if someone
says, 'okay, I'll address section 3a..' and so on..
Jagwire X > In a way. Yeah. In the next version I should, hopefully, have
it broken up into different sections (for each working group).
So, yeah.
Velax > It seems to me that a really vital thing now is coming up with
at least a hypothetical scenario whereby an actual
geographic location is found and actual hardware is procured.
otherwise it will remain just a fantasy. in this regard,
I seem to recall that future culture carried some discussion of
where you might buy old destroyers from [was it eastern
European countries selling off their navies?], and the
extropians thread on ocean colonization discussed whereabouts
in international waters you might have the least chance of
being harassed.. I think one of the optimum locations was off
some small southeast Asian nation.
Jagwire X > Yeah. Ideally, I would like to see a ship that can actually
move about. If it was stationary I would think that a
southeast Asian nation would be a suitable locale.
Velax > hmm.. the question of mobility is related to the question of
size, basically, I think. you need to know what sort of vessels
are available - submarines? destroyers? crude oil carriers? etc
etc. heh just had an idea. maybe you could learn from L Ron
Hubbard's "sea org", he had a private flotilla of yachts or
something like that.
Jagwire X > Getting the hardware is going to be the most difficult part.
And it will require some preparation on the part of the people
involved. It will take some time to accomplish (at best).
Even so if it does not come to fruition, it still is an
excellent... mental exercise for the parties involved.
Velax > hmm. if, say, AUtopia foundered in its present form, for one
reason or another, then the thought which had gone into the
social and technical aspects might prove useful to future
attempts to design new edge communities, but.. nonetheless
there are a lot of issues specifically relating to the idea of
a new-edge colony *at sea*. and they are the most difficult
ones, as far as actually achieving this goes.
Jagwire X > True.
Velax > but it's hard to see where else a new-edge colony could go, in
the near future. I used to think about having some sort of
research community in the Australian outback, but most of that
land is either barren or belongs to mineral companies or
aboriginal tribes. Applies to the American desert.
Velax > I was musing about other possible locations.. the point I was
getting around to was that at sea seems to be the best possible
location for a generic new-edge colony at present. the only
other place I can imagine would be in a ghetto somewhere, or
maybe sibe
Jagwire X > Well, in orbit would be nice, but unlikely. I certainly
wouldn't mind living in space.
Velax > Siberia that is.. since the Russian government wants to develop
its eastern regions & wants foreign investment too, or
something like that well, I presume that the new edge will get
into orbit eventually, but the AUtopia timescale seems to be
more like late 90's early 21st century.
Jagwire X > Somehow I don't think they would want us there. Yeah, the
ocean is the most likely candidate.
Velax > All this relates back to what you said about, even if AUtopia
doesn't come to fruition anything that gets thrashed out here
can still help future enterprises like this..
Velax > The point is that if it's ever going to happen at all,
anywhere, it looks as though it will have to start at sea.
Jagwire X > Yeop.
Velax > So even the specifically "nautical" considerations that will be
discussed on AUtopia will be of future relevance, not just the
generic contemplation of new-edge autonomous communities.
Velax > [does that make sense?]
Jagwire X > Yeah, I think so. Like even for non New Edge ocean
colonization.
Velax > Another thing that has occured to me. on leri-l someone talked
once about setting up a bot on irc channel #leri and automating
a process whereby all conversation on the channel would get
sent to the mailing list. maybe you could do that with AUtopia
too. [concerning non New Edge ocean col.] yes, that too. do you
know how often people visit #AUtopia?
Jagwire X > Nope. I have no idea. I am often not around as I am still
await the full INTERnet connection at my base of operations.
Velax > Is that wixer.cactus.org?
Jagwire X > Yeah. That's the place. Home of AUtopia, Scream Baby and
FringeWare.
Velax > Yeah, I'm very curious about it. does you or Blade X or Paco
work for wixer or cactus or whatever organization this is?
Jagwire X > Blade X, Pacoid and I are the big three freaks there. No none
of us do. It's run by George Wenzel and frankly I don't know
much about it. 'Better, Faster and Cheaper' is their motto (I
think), but don't quote me on that.
Velax > heh, ok
Velax > I remember on fut-cult a while back there was a discussion
about which city is more cyberpunkish or new-edgey, and I
remember someone saying that Austin was one of the best places
to be, to be connected to the techno-underground
Jagwire X > Yeah, it definitely is. The amount of New Edge per capita has
got to be higher than anywhere else. Plus there's a whole lot
of high-tech industry here. The University of Texas, more
BBS's than you can shake a stick at. Members of the Legion of
Doom. A local chapter of EFF. Plenty of Raves (if your into
that). Tons of live music. etc. etc. etc.
Velax > So you have high-tech industry [computers? genetics?
aerospace?] connected to utexas, plus drugs, raves, mind
machines, hackers..
Jagwire X > Plus it's has some of the strictest environmental initiatives
in the US, clean air, and it's a sprawl even (size wise if not
population). High-tech industry includes all that you
mentioned.
Velax > how organized is the techno-undeground, do you think? I guess
this relates to what you were saying before, about the lack of
overarching visions. it seems to me that the most organized
people would be groups like LOD. at the level of the new edge
as a whole, there's no organization, there's only zines and
other info outlets like the mailing lists which provide an
overview of what exists,. but don't actually coordinate
anything.
Jagwire X > How organized. Here it seems to be more organized than most
places. EFF-Austin is a contributor to that.
Velax > Isn't the EFF basically a civil rights watchdog? officially? I
mean, I imagine that at CyberDawg get-togethers, or whatever
they're called, people might talk about all sorts of other
things, but I'm sure the EFF charter [eg] doesn't say 'we're
here to put the nootropics researchers, in touch with the
computer underground, in touch with..'
Jagwire X > Yeah, that's right. The CyberDawgs present an opportunity for
the people to meet face2face. What they do after that is up to
them.
Velax > hmm. on the topic of the eff, while you were gone I started
checking my email and there's a whole heap of messages with
subject lines like 'the EFF is over' and 'shakeup at the eff'.
do you know what this is about.
Jagwire X > Not really. There was a post about EFF National's changes.
The rest was all just opinions and hype. Apparently some people
are not pleased with what they are doing. Me I don't have much
of an opinion about it.
Velax > Well, just viewing one long message, which I think is the post
about the national changes, it says something about not forming
local chapters. where would that leave EFF-Austin, any idea?
Jagwire X > Well, EFF-Austin is an incorporated entity unto itself. It is
not actually a subdivision of EFF-National.
Velax > okay, so this would really appear to be just an organizational
change, not a change of goals or anything. however, to relate
this back to what I was saying before, the EFF is an
organization which concentrates on the future of
the net, or cyberspace, & in particular on civil liberties in
cyberspace. That's only part of the new edge. for example,
nanotech, nootropics & other forms of R&D on the one hand, &
raves, mudding & other on-line _culture_ on the other, are part
of it too. what I was trying to get at is that there is nothing
concerned with the whole new edge, as far as I can see, apart
from zines like Mondo 2000 etc.
Jagwire X > Yes. That's right. As far as I know it does not promote any
of the other aspects of the New Edge. Yeah, in the sense that
any magazine is a discussion of a subject. I would say that
M2k and bOING-bOING do quite a good job of blending various
aspects together.
Velax > And they are more reporting on the scene rather than trying to
involve it all in some common enterprise, as AUtopia would.
So there would seem to be a need for 2 things, that I can think
of: i] a group with an "EFF-like" approach to the whole issue
of technoculture, and ii] trying to create the space - a "TAZ"
- where new edge activities can be pursued. this is where
AUtopia fits in, I guess.
Jagwire X > You got it.
Velax > I've never seen bOING bOING here in oz, unfortunately
Jagwire X > I am probably going to have to go for good RSN.
Velax > Yeah, I guess it might be about time. it must be about midnight
there by now?
Jagwire X > No, 8:30 pm. I just have some stuff I have to do b4 it get's
late. I've enjoyed it and thanks for the opportunity!
Velax > Yes, its bee fun & quite interesting. Maybe someday I'll be
able to interview you at jagwire@autopia.com
Jagwire X > Heh. Hopefully! Feel free to e-mail me if you have any further
questions. BCNUL8R
Velax > Sure. well, I'll probably see you on future culture, AUtopia or
leri, anyhow. Ok, see you..
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