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APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
Tuesday, March 12, 1991 10:00 p.m. Eastern Time
Topic: Beginner's Night (and open discussion)
Forum Leader: Dave Sugar (AFL Dyfet)
AFL Dyfet Is there anything we can help you with tonight, Joel? Hi WankerL
:)
JoelH4 I have a question to pose, anyone know anything about "APPLE
3's"
JoelH4 I have a friend with one, & little practical knowledge
AFL Dyfet Give Joel a little breathing space there people :)....What kind of
Apple III
AFL Dyfet question do you have/
Matt DTS I have one in my office. Shame I don't have a monitor (or a power
cord, or any disks, etc.).
WinkieJim Matt, using as a doorstop are we? :) :)
AFL Dyfet There is an active national Apple /// users group....I would
suggest sending
AFL Dyfet mail to 'Lavona' to find out more about it.
JoelH4 How much ProDOS/DOS 3.3 software will/won't work on one,
AFL Dyfet I do not know how well the II emulation mode works off-hand.....
WinkieJim II emulation is II+ emulation only...
AFL Dyfet If I recall, I think it used a special pre-boot disk, which would
mean you
AFL Dyfet could then maybe boot ProDOS after it...however, it does not
support 80 columns
AFL Dyfet or any other /// stuff in emulation mode...
WinkieJim if it'll run on a II+ it should run on the /// in emulation mode
JoelH4 It does emulate a 2, I'm an old time 2e user
AFA Gary J Right, it won't emulate a IIe.
AFA Gary J (Or a Macintosh, for that matter :)
WinkieJim I my memory serves me there is a add-on card fro the /// to allow
it
WinkieJim to run IIe software...but Lavona would know more...
JoelH4 Ha Ha, but a MAC can emulate us, now
Matt DTS Macintoshes have been "emulating" Apple IIs for many years. But
the Apple IIe Card for the Macintosh
Matt DTS LC is NOT "emulation". It's a full-blown Apple IIe that runs in a
Macintosh environment.
Matt DTS (It just doesn't have any IIe slots. :)
WinkieJim The little brother always tries to emulate it's old and wiser
brother :) :)
AFA Gary J :)
AFA Parik (there is also trackstar for ibm/amiga, and a II+ software
emulator for ibm/amiga/st).
JoelH4 thanks for the infomation, it will get me started Apple/// "ing"
AFA Gary J Apple /// forever!
AFA Gary J (oops. Old macro :)
AFL Dyfet Okay, who else has a question for tonight?
AFL Dyfet Okay, Scott, go ahead, you have the floor now...
DevScott I've been calling some mail order places for Orca/C and they
DevScott tell me that it's not available due to an upgrade.
DevScott Is this true?
AFL Dyfet GA Matt...
Matt DTS Something like that. The Byte Works is in the middle of updating
the ORCA/C system, and they may
Matt DTS not be filling new orders pending the imminent upgrade. You could
find out for sure by calling...
Matt DTS ...the Byte Works, at (505) 898-8183 (New Mexico/Mountain time
zone). GA.
DevScott Thanks...supposedly it will be more expensive too :(
AFL Dyfet GA Winkie...
WinkieJim or Byte Works is online here too.
AFA Gary J (Keyword BYTEWORKS)
DevScott Done...
AFL Dyfet Okay, I guess we're back to you Winkie :)
WinkieJim Does anyone know if there is anything other than REZ that will
convert a
WinkieJim OMF file into a CODE resource and the CDev CODE resource?
AFL Dyfet GA Matt...
Matt DTS Hmm...I believe that Richard Bennet's "Reslin" will do it, and
LLRE might. GA.
AFL Dyfet GA Jonah...
WinkieJim Mmm I have reslin...will have to take another look at it...
ShanoJ Ya, I've used LLRE to do it.... Can't you also use Genesys--I know
you can
ShanoJ Export, but I think there's also an Import menu item in the latest
version.
WinkieJim Genesys, doesn't seem to have a way of doing it...
AFL Dyfet There is an upgrade for Genesys now...
WinkieJim Well, They havn't sent me 1.2 yet so I'll have to get on
them...they
WinkieJim seem to keep forgetting I was a bata tester :)
WinkieJim Maybe I didn't find enough bugs :)
ShanoJ Ya, 1.2 can do it, I think...
WinkieJim ga...
AFL Dyfet Okay, I guess we are ready for wind...ga :)
Windrider5 I have been looking at some sample C code (from Apple) eg. Dart
and
Windrider5 they use the function SaveDB() and restoreDB() quite a bit. Is
it
Windrider5 necessary to use these functions?
AFL Dyfet Go ahead Dave...
Dave Lyons Yes! You have to set and restore the 65816's Data Bank Register
(DBR, or sometimes called just "B")
Dave Lyons whenever you have a C function that can get called without the B
register already set to the bank
Dave Lyons containing your global non-array variables (the ~globals segment
of your program).
Dave Lyons When your C program starts up, it sets B properly, and at the "top
level" of your code you never have
Dave Lyons to worry about it. But when the Toolbox *calls you*, like for a
window-draw routine, the B register
Dave Lyons is not guaranteed to be set how your C code expects it. In cases
like that, you have to make *sure*
Dave Lyons you use -no- global variables anywhere in the routine, even
indirectly by calling other functions,
Dave Lyons or you have to use SaveDB and RestoreDB.
Dave Lyons ga
Dave Lyons (In some languages you have a "LongGlobals" option you can turn on
instead.)
Windrider5 Is this done at the beginning and end of the program
Windrider5 or for each routine?
Dave Lyons The START.ROOT/etc code does it at the beginning of your whole
program--
Dave Lyons there's just one set of globals.
AFL Dyfet Do we have any other questions out there for tonight?
AFL Dyfet Okay, go ahead Jonah...
ShanoJ Okay, this weekend I wrote a loaded driver for internal modems
(like my trusty
ShanoJ DataLink 2400). In testing it with Joe Wankerl's Transfusion NDA,
I ran into
JWankerl :-)
ShanoJ some problems. The main one goes something like this: Joe wrote
his program to
ShanoJ work with the default driver for EXTERNAL modems. To read
characters, he calls
ShanoJ DStatus, then looks at the no-wait mode bit of the statusWord. If
it's set, he
ShanoJ calls ReadGS on one byte of memory to get a character. He loops
through this
ShanoJ DStatus/ReadGS until the no-wait mode flag goes false. Now, in
my
ShanoJ understanding, the no-wait mode flag could be set by the
application to
ShanoJ whatever the programmer liked, so that the program would operate
in the mode it
ShanoJ wanted. However, the driver seems to be toggling it back and
forth! Which one
ShanoJ is right? Matt? :)
Matt DTS What "no-wait mode flag"?
ShanoJ In the statusWord, returned by DStatus, bit position 0x0020.
WinkieJim ha! We finaly stumped Matt! :)
Matt DTS Nononononononono.
ShanoJ (Top of page 129 in the AW ref)
Matt DTS That bit is valid for generated drivers only - if it's set,
there's a character waiting.
Matt DTS It does *not* represent no-wait mode, and that diagram should have
been corrected in a recent
JWankerl I tried to tell ya that, Jonah. :-)
Matt DTS Technical Note (checking to see when it came out...)
ShanoJ Shut up, Joe... :)
AFA Gary J :)
Matt DTS I think it will be in this month's batch, but we did talk about it
in a conference on here earlier.
Matt DTS You get the wait-mode status by calling GetWaitStatus, not by
looking in the general status
Matt DTS word. (These diagrams are all throughout GS/OS Ref. and GS/OS
Driver Ref., and it was very difficult
Matt DTS trying to catch the same error in all the places the diagram was
included!). So...
Matt DTS ...in light of this previously-hidden information, what is in fact
the problem?
ShanoJ (So it's Joe's fault... :)
AFL Dyfet Strange, it's snowing and thundering...and yes, Matt, I recall the
prev. conf
AFL Dyfet where this had been discussed...
ShanoJ Okay, that clears it up. My driver just sets that flag to 0, and I
rewrite
ShanoJ Joe's program to work properly... :)
Matt DTS STOP!
Dave Lyons Matt, I'm lost--he wants to know if there are any characters
waiting. Isn't that bit in the general
Dave Lyons status??
Matt DTS (Oh, wait. No, never mind. go ahead. :)
Matt DTS Dave: Yes, for generated drivers. He just thought it was a
no-wait mode bit. Jonah didn't
Matt DTS understand why Joe's program did what it did. (GA)
ShanoJ Or is it what Dave said? That's the way I have it working now...
ShanoJ So, can my loaded driver use that bit as a 'character waiting'
bit?
Matt DTS Yes, you can, and you're encouraged to...but programs can't expect
all loaded character drivers
Matt DTS to respect that bit since it wasn't defined until 5.0.
ShanoJ (and even then... :)
ShanoJ Okay, so I use that bit, Joe doesn't have to rewrite anything, and
we'll let
ShanoJ OTHER people worry about THEIR drivers not working... :) I can
live with
ShanoJ that. :)
AFL Dyfet Okay, I guess Winkie is next...ga Winkie...
WinkieJim Is there a max hight for Cdev icons, the max width is 28 but what
about hight?
AFL Dyfet Height...hmmm....Ga Matt...
Matt DTS Well, Dave needs to answer this, but I believe a maximum height
such that the icon appears square is
Matt DTS a safe bet. Dave?
AFL Dyfet :)
A2GS Dave seems to be out at the moment....Hey DAVE, anyone HOME????
:-)
WinkieJim Earth to Dave...
AFA Gary J He's getting more M&M's?
Dave Lyons Oh, I'm here...
A2GS He's here in handle but not (apparently) in mind :)
Matt DTS (Cut him some slack, he's been working hard -- but not too much
slack. :)
AFA Gary J :)
WinkieJim I get like that sometimes GS :)
AFL Dyfet Must not have locked down his handle...
Dave Lyons Uh, sticking with the de-facto standards
Dave Lyons for CDev icons would be good...the Control Panel doesn't go out of
its way to figure out how
Dave Lyons tall the icons are, it just draws them in the list. I think most
of them are 20, and some are shorter
Dave Lyons Basically, if it works fine in the present Control Panel icon
list, you should be fine.
Dave Lyons (ga)
AFL Dyfet Sounds like a reasonable response :)
WinkieJim ok, thanks...
AFL Dyfet Okay, anyone next?
AFL Dyfet Go ahead Jonah...
ShanoJ Okay, this is a silly one, but in the abscence of any REAL
questions... :)
ShanoJ How on EARTH do you manage to set the extra 8 KIND bits that APW
can't touch
ShanoJ when it gives the default segment a name of " ". Doug's
OMF util
ShanoJ don't work too well with that.... :(
Dave Lyons (Block.Warden)
Matt DTS Uh...won't LinkIIgs do it for you?
ShanoJ Well, the added complication is that I've got a library that I
link in that
ShanoJ has all of it's code in a separate segment (called HelpLib) PLUS a
few routines
ShanoJ in the main source in an AuxSeg segment. Doing it with LinkIIgs
ran into the
ShanoJ same problem with the " " name again. (BTW, CAN you do it with
a block
ShanoJ editor? I tried that, too, and it didn't work... Then again, you
never know
ShanoJ with me... :)
Matt DTS Who is naming the segment " "?
ShanoJ APW gives the default segment (ie. MyProg START) a segment name of
" ".
Dave Lyons (I second Matt's question. Yes, you can do Anything in a block
editor.)
AFA Gary J Yeah, Jonah, Why not just name the " " segment to
something.
ShanoJ Well, I thought of that, but there are over 200 procedures, and I
didn't want
ShanoJ to spend the time if there was an easier way to do it... :)
AFA Gary J OIC :)
Matt DTS Huh? It doesn't do that to me, does it? (checking...)
AFA Gary J (Search for "start" a zillion times, eh? :)
ShanoJ (Then again, it would have taken half the time I've now spent
playing around
ShanoJ to just give that segment a name... But think of the great
LEARNING I'm doing!
ShanoJ Nope, that doesn't work. Nope, that doesn't either. Nor that. etc.
:)
AFA Gary J What are you trying to set it to? (The KIND field, that is)
ShanoJ Now, if there were a search for Start but not Start AuxCode,
then we'd be
ShanoJ in business... :)
Matt DTS Hmm...it just says "Segment name :", so I can't tell how many
blanks there are. I'll try redirecting
Matt DTS to a file...
JWankerl There should be 10 blanks, I believe.
JWankerl (spaces, blanks... same difference)
ShanoJ (Must be nice to have another computer to play with while you're
online... :)
Matt DTS Ten spaces, sure enough. Well, that bites.
JWankerl Hey, I was right! HA HA!
ShanoJ <-- finally found a real problem!! :)
Matt DTS Jonah: What happens if you use the option in LinkIIgs: -a "
"="main"?
AFL Dyfet GA A2...
A2GS Thanx....First of all, do the new Apple printers only except "true
type" for
A2GS printing? (I have a followup Q based on the answer to this one)
AFL Dyfet That's a little more in the scope of AHW than here :)....GA Winkie
AFTER Matt..
Matt DTS Oh, we're on the new printers: !
WinkieJim StyleWriter is described as 'Designed for Macintosh only'
A2GS That's how Apple describe everything
AFA Gary J (boo)
WinkieJim LaserWriter LS is described as 'Not Apple II compatible at this
time'
Matt DTS Uh...!
A2GS :-)
WinkieJim so I'd guess there is hope for the LS
WinkieJim ga only my opinon...
Pixies yeah but that's how apple labels its customers too.. "not apple II
compatible
Pixies at this time"
A2GS Is the Stylewriter the Inkjet, $599 printer?
Matt DTS Now, for printers:
Matt DTS StyleWriter and Personal LaserWriter LS (PLLS) were clearly
designed for the broader Mac market, but..
A2GS there's a BUT
Matt DTS ...perhaps could be made to work on an Apple II. However, it will
not be something a user can do.
Matt DTS Explanation:
Matt DTS StyleWriter communicates only at 57,600 baud and does not have any
character-based firmware built-in.
Matt DTS In other words, the standard Apple II method of sending "a"
through the printer port will not work
Matt DTS with StyleWriter - it needs more hardware to do that. It only
knows how to print dots, which is why
Matt DTS it's such a good match for TrueType.
A2GS oh...
Matt DTS The PLLS communicates at about 909,000 baud, externally clocked,
and expects all images coming
Matt DTS in to be compressed with a compression algorithm that it
decompresses in *hardware*. It has no
Matt DTS PostScript or networking support, making it in the same class as
the SC LaserWriters (requires mucho
Matt DTS imaging and big communications to print). So, that's the story.
GA.
A2GS I have a second Q...unrelated to the previous...
Pixies now if i could run AOL at that speed i'd be a shoe in at
trivia..
WinkieJim Pixies, didn't you get your 909,0000 baud upgrade? :)
Pixies missed it.
A2GS Just out of Curiosity....The GS cannot be used as a Server, right?
Why not?
WinkieJim a2Gs, no server software for GS
JWankerl A2GS: It can be used... just wait ;-)
A2GS I know....but are there any (technical reasons), why not?
Matt DTS A2GS -- because we chose not to write server software for it,
mostly.
JWankerl Yah - Apple's technical reason #1 - "The Apple IIGS is too slow"
A2GS That's what I thought...:-(
Matt DTS Joe, don't put words in our mouth. The IIgs is kind of slow, but
it could be done with hardware.
Matt DTS Mostly, a server is a very, very complicated and secure program
that takes a while to bullet-proof,
Matt DTS and after AppleShare 2.0 they chose not to duplicate that effort
for another platform. GA.
A2GS So why not do it....Apple can't say that there isn't a market for
it....
A2GS I know of PLENTY of schools AND small businesses (believe it or
not) who would
A2GS love to use a GS as a Server.
WinkieJim A2GS, I'd rather put the GS to real use and let the mac sit in the
corner :)
AFA Gary J (BUT, you're still forced to buy the mac, Winkie)
A2GS True...but I'd like to avoid the Mac as much as possible....the
more people
A2GS see of what the Mac can do and of the FEW things the GS can't
do...only hurts
A2GS the GS.
Matt DTS A2GS: We knew people would want it, but it's a significant
development effort we chose not to do.
Matt DTS Businesses have to make those decisions sometimes. GA.
AFL Dyfet Okay, I guess Pixies is next...go ahead :)....
Pixies could someone explain the use of a disassembler.. e.g. can i take
a commercial
Pixies program or something online, disassemble it and examine how it is
linked
Pixies together.. I have a pascal basis, so would that be of any use??
Pixies I guess if Orca's offering half price programs w/ a free Pascal
upgrade i can
Pixies afford a disassembler for $25
AFA Gary J Ok, Jonah, are you answering Pixies? GA
ShanoJ Pixies: Well, with a disasm, you can load in ANY program (pretty
much--the FTA
ShanoJ ones are often an exception) and see the code that makes it work.
HOWEVER, the
ShanoJ code will be displayed in Assembly, which looks NOTHING like
Pascal. If you
ShanoJ ONLY know Pascal, then ORCA/Diss isn't going to be of much use to
you.
JWankerl Yah, you gotta be kind of knowledgable about assembly to figure
out how Pascal
JWankerl is generating the code.
Pixies ok, thanks.. well i'll have to see whatelse byteworks is
offering..
AFA Gary J Also, disassemblers create an actual source file. You have to be
somewhat
AFA Gary J knowledgeable about assembly in order to make a successful
disassembly as well.
AFA Gary J (i.e. you have to know when something looks like data, and when
it looks like
Pixies yeah, definately not for me..
AFA Gary J code, and that sort of thing). If you're just looking to explore
some code,
AFA Gary J then you can use the monitor, or a more sophisticated program
(nudge Dave :)
AFA Gary J like Nifty List to list through a program that's loaded into
memory, and see
AFA Gary J what it's made of.
WinkieJim Gee, now Gary is doing Dave's comercials :) :)
AFA Gary J :)
Dave Lyons :)
Pixies is nifty list on AOL.. or is it commercial?
AFA Gary J Nifty List is shareware, on AOL
Dave Lyons Shareware, in ADV and AUT libraries.
WinkieJim GAry, if I give you a buck, will you promote Super Info?
AFA Gary J :)
A2GS It's commercially available on AOL :-)
Pixies hmm. maybe i'll check it out..
AFA Gary J There are other utilities for looking at how programs are
"built", such as
AFA Gary J DUMPOBJ, and such.
ShanoJ NiftyList is second only to GSBug (ORCA/Diss is third... :)
A2GS GSBug is GREAT
AFA Gary J (I think I'd put GSBug as a REAL CLOSE second to Nifty List, in
my book :)
Matt DTS Yeah, Gary, but how much coding do you do? :)
AFA Gary J I do a fair share of coding, but I use Nifty List to get a clear
picture of
AFA Gary J where I'm at prior to finishing things off with GSBug :)
A2GS How about putting them both First and Orca/Diss second?
JWankerl As soon as GSBug does imbedded names in object code it'll be
better than NL.
JWankerl (for tracking down bugs, that is)
Dave Lyons Gee Joe, then I guess I'll have to not put that in. :-) :-)
Dave Lyons (Don't worry, yeah, GSBug will support imbedded names someday.)
ShanoJ (Naw, I need to step through the code to see how it works
sometimes... )
A2GS Or how about making them all First and the GS' monitor second...
A2GS or how about....you get the point
JWankerl Dave: You'd better!!!! ;-)
Pixies ok, thanks.. for $10 i think i'll check it out..:)
Pixies has anyone here seen the new pascal upgrade? like a pre-release
version??
JWankerl Yah, we got ahold of the newest ORCA/Pascal - it should be
shipping to
JWankerl registered users any week now.
Pixies what's your opinion of the new version JW
JWankerl Pixies: I really haven't used it yet, so I can't say. Sorry.
Pixies do you know if the char bug is fixed.. that creates a big problem
for most
Pixies of the programs i write for pascal class..
JWankerl Pixies: I really dunno about it.
A2GS BTW Anyone know what the story is on the Animation
Toolset??????????
Matt DTS A2GS: You can try asking a question and we can try answering
it..............
A2GS When will it be available?
AFA Gary J :)
A2GS How's that?
ShanoJ Or even WILL it be available?
A2GS (2 questions :)
Matt DTS Not for a while. Development was not as advanced as the
KansasFest presentation implied. (Sorry.)
A2GS ok....I heard a rumor about Apple having a "Game Evanglist"...any
truth to it?
A2GS (that you know of)
Matt DTS Plans call for its inclusion in future system software, but I
don't know about any availability
Matt DTS before that. Evangelism (read traditional, Mac evangelism) now
does have a game evangelist, I believe
Matt DTS it is Craig Fryar.
A2GS Any idea what he's Evanglising???
A2GS other then the Mac?
Matt DTS Not that I can talk about, sorry. (And this is MACINTOSH
Evangelism - I said that!)
A2GS oh...sorry
Matt DTS What do you expect a Mac evangelist to evangelize?
AFA Gary J Certainly not Apple II's :(
Matt DTS Nope...that's Rob Barnes's job. :)
A2GS :)
A2GS Like the GS is just rolling in Games :)
A2GS :(
AFA Gary J It does have some good ones, though.
A2GS Yeah...but it sure could use a heck of a lot more.....We don't
even have
A2GS SimCity....it's ridiculous...Apple even used that fact (or was it
SimEarth)
A2GS in there latest cruddy ad...knocking the II in InCider.
JWankerl Yah, like Rastan -- too bad it can't be found anymore.
AFA Gary J Yeah, exactly the title on my mind, JWankerl
ShanoJ How long did Rastan sell for? Two months or something? Jeez...
:(
A2GS Yeah.....Isn't anyone on the Apple II side wondering why there
isn't an
A2GS Apple II Games Eavnglist????
Matt DTS A2GS: No. We've just gotten an Apple II evangelist since the
first of the year.
Matt DTS Given that we have exactly one evangelist, hiring a second one
just for games seems a bit unwarranted.
A2GS What does one have to do with other?
A2GS Apple seems to think Games are important otherwise they wouldn't
have opened
A2GS thew position for a guy in the Mac section.
Matt DTS A2GS: Perhaps, but game developers have shrunk from the Mac even
more than from the Apple II in
Matt DTS recent years. The few out there have been good, but not that many
have been written.
A2GS If that's the case how come the software store I work at just
expanded the
A2GS Games section for the Mac...while absolutely NOTHING new has come
out for
A2GS the GS in months.
Matt DTS The IIgs software market is currently more depressed than the Mac
software market, and hopefully
Matt DTS our evangelist will be able to do something about it. But
considering all the market segments out
Matt DTS there (education, consumer, productivity, utility, multimedia,
etc.) I personally rate games a little
Matt DTS lower on the totem pole than you do.
JWankerl Ask the software publishers, A2GS... I really dunno.
A2GS There are FAR fewer games being written for the GS then for the
Mac....and
A2GS that's a FACT.
A2GS The GS is doing GREAT in education and productivity is kind of
weak on the GS
A2GS but at least still exists and continues to enjoy new programs
while Games and
A2GS Music software are absolutely NILL on the GS.
A2GS I hope the II Evanglist is successful....a lot rides on him.
Matt DTS And if we can make the Apple II a bigger market force, those
developers who didn't make any money
Matt DTS last time they tried will probably come back. But we're not going
to impress any big publishes by
Matt DTS calling around and saying "Write more games."
A2GS No....but you won't impress ANYBODY if you don't call at all.
Matt DTS We impress them with "We're doing this to make the Apple IIgs a
good-selling computer platform that
Matt DTS lots of people buy and use, and golly, look at this game
capability and unexplored market segment..."
A2GS The fact is....I don't know of many parents who buy GS's for there
kids who
A2GS don't take into account how much software there is for the machine
(especially
A2GS Game software) and if only a Teensy Tiny percent of all the
software on the
A2GS GS is games then something is VERY worng....the Fact is Games
SHOULD (in a
A2GS healthy machines market) be something like 30%-40% of all the
software
A2GS available for the machine.
Matt DTS A2GS: Maybe in terms of retail store shelf space, but not in
terms of sales or available software.
Matt DTS No argument there should be more, but the way to make more is not
to promote the IIgs as a "game
Matt DTS machine." It's to move it in quantity and then let people
discover the untapped game potential.
A2GS AGREED
AFA Gary J I do agree that games can play a big part in attracting buyers in
the mythical
AFA Gary J "home market", especially when kids are in the formula)
Matt DTS (Maybe with some gentle nudging...)
AFA Gary J (And even when it's just Dad making the decision)
A2GS How about some outright slugging :)
A2GS EA is FINALLY doing Chuck Yeager for the PC....took them long
enough :)
ShanoJ For the PC? What's it on now?
A2GS The II (or at least it used to be)
A2GS I don't think my store is even able to get it anymore.
AFA Gary J I have a question. Does anyone know if using the hardware
registers DIRECTLY
AFA Gary J for accessing the serial port on a IIGS will SIGNIFICANTLY speed
up modem
AFA Gary J access over what the firmware will do?
A2GS Probably not...although I don't know that for a fact.
AFA Gary J (Firmware (ugh) = go into emulation mode, etc.)
Matt DTS Hmm...the firmware will go 19,200 baud, so I don't think so.
AFA Gary J I'm not sure if my bottlekneck is due to the modem through-put or
just
AFA Gary J getting the characters from the modem to my program.
AFA Gary J (It slows down the playability of my game, significantly)
AFA Gary J :)
A2GS That's what Makes "Prodigy" such a dream to use....the FAST screen
updates :)
AFA Gary J I'll have to do some testing to see if my program is waiting for
data at the
AFA Gary J modem port, or not.
ShanoJ Oh, I've got one--is it the firmware on the SSC that interprets
the commands
ShanoJ (ie. Ctrl-A 8B) or will writing to the registers on the card do it
(it almost
ShanoJ has to be the former, but I just wanna check.)
AFA Gary J Jonah: It's the firmware. (There's registers to do all the
command stuff)
ShanoJ Ya, that's what I thought.... Thanks Gary.
ShanoJ Matt: I have to call modem (ie. SSC) firmware with FWEntry, right?
(or write
ShanoJ my own routine to do it).
AFA Gary J Firmware reference details a way to call firmware
AFA Gary J (i.e. going into emulation, etc.)
Matt DTS We encourage you not to call $CnXX entries with FWEntry. If you
can use the GS/OS generated driver,
Matt DTS please do.
ShanoJ Right, that's what I thought (toldya, Joe... Jeez, trying to
confuse me...:)
Matt DTS There are two, count them two, count them again two kinds of
drivers --
Matt DTS character drivers and block drivers. That's all GS/OS has.
JWankerl Yes, but the device ID is A (character) and not 9 (modem) (I
think A is char)
ShanoJ Ya, but the generated driver for an internal modem has a device ID
of $0016
JWankerl okay, so it's 16... I was wrong.
ShanoJ (character device driver, generic) not $0009 (serial modem).
ShanoJ So if you're writing a modem program, and looking for a modem
driver, you don't
ShanoJ find it! :(
Matt DTS That's because the generation routines can't tell if it's a modem
or just some generic character
Matt DTS device. Not enough information to identify it.
GSPlusDiz I think you mean 'looking for a modem DEVICE'
A2GS SUGGESTION: Give a 2 hour detailed conference at the K-Fest on
Drivers,
A2GS complete with hand outs and source code...especially for Printer
and Modem
A2GS Drivers.
ShanoJ Driver, device; same difference... :)
GSPlusDiz Sorta :)
Matt DTS A2GS: We did, last year. :)
A2GS I know I was there :)
Matt DTS We didn't give out sample character driver source, but we held the
session.
A2GS But I'm still VERY lost on the whole thing :(
Matt DTS And it's hard to do that session, because there are about 5
different kinds of drivers, and everyone
Matt DTS thinks the kind they're interested in is "GS/OS drivers". ("
ShanoJ So what does that leave us doing, Matt? Should the modem prog look
for a
Matt DTS ("Well, I booted GS/OS, so I want a GS/OS Printer Driver for my
LaserJet.")
ShanoJ "Character device driver (generic)" as well as a serial modem?
GSPlusDiz Well then, how about a detailed series of articles on drivers in
GS+?
A2GS There's an Idea....I just don't wanna have to wait 6 month's (3
issues) till
A2GS I have all the necessary info.
GSPlusDiz Better than waiting for 5 KFests!
A2GS True...but one detailed K-Fest would ALSO be very productive.
AFA Gary J I'd say that it should use the serial modem if it finds it
(first), and then
AFA Gary J go to the generic if it has to.
Matt DTS If you find more than one character device the user might want to
use, why not let them choose?
AFA Gary J (But what Matt said is better :)
JWankerl Well the thing is that the gs modem port automagically buffers its
data but
JWankerl the character drivers don't.
A2GS automagically....nice typo :) (if it is a typo :)
AFA Gary J Automatically?
AFA Gary J Does the driver set it to do it automatically, or is it derived
from the port
AFA Gary J setting in the control panel?
JWankerl automagically
GSPlusDiz It's not a typo!
Matt DTS No, no it doesn't - not unless the user automagically checked
"Buffering: Yes" in the
Matt DTS Control Panel...
JWankerl Well I turn it on when I start up if it's on or not. (So I cheat
a bit :-)
AFA Gary J (Matt answered, thanks :)
AFA Gary J That's not automatic, then :)
AFA Gary J (Or even Automagic)
Matt DTS And it's not going to solve your problems with Jonah's driver,
either.
ShanoJ Uggh... Looks like my driver wasn't as necessary as I thought...
:(
AFA Gary J :)
JWankerl Well what should I do, Matt?
Matt DTS Well...I can't answer that until you ask a more specific
question.
Matt DTS (You guys understand now why we don't like doing phone support?
:)
GSPlusDiz Actually, this WOULD be easier over the phone...
GSPlusDiz Voice that is!
JWankerl Well okay - how do I buffer the input of character devices?
ShanoJ What SPECIFICALLY should Joe do, Matt? :)
ShanoJ ...or at least faster....
AFA Gary J Matt, you mean like, "What's wrong with my program???!!
GSPlusDiz ;)
Matt DTS Easier for you guys, maybe, but not for the guy trying to answer
the questions correctly and
Matt DTS stay polite all at the same time! (I have no tact, remember?)
JWankerl Is there a way to make the driver call a routine whenever it gets
a character?
Matt DTS Well...ideally, a given driver won't lose characters if you don't
poll it all the time.
Matt DTS Ideally it queues the characters that come in until you send it a
Driver_Flush command to empty the
Matt DTS input/output buffers.
Matt DTS If it won't do that, you the application may just be out of luck.
:(
JWankerl What do you mean by don't poll it all the time? Not check for
characters?
Matt DTS Yes.
JWankerl Well then how am I supposed to know if there is a character
waiting or not?
GSPlusDiz Apparently you cant...
Matt DTS You're missing a point somewhere, Joe.
JWankerl I think so, too.
Matt DTS Ideally:
Matt DTS If you don't poll for characters, the driver queues them up until
you're ready for them.
GSPlusDiz I think I have it!
Matt DTS So...for a loaded driver, all you have to do is read in no-wait
mode and get the character (or check
Matt DTS the bit for generated drivers). That way you don't have to poll
constantly to avoid losing characters
Matt DTS Make sense?
JWankerl Hmmmm... okay, so I make the DStatus call to see if there is a
character
JWankerl waiting and then read it if there is one?
Matt DTS Yes, for generated drivers.
Matt DTS For loaded drivers, try to put it into no-wait mode and then just
read to get the character. If there
Matt DTS is no character waiting, it will return immediately with a
transfer_count of zero.
JWankerl But I lose characters that way.... they're not buffered using an
internal
JWankerl modem.
AFA Gary J They are if you set it up to do it.
JWankerl How do I set it up to do it, Gary?
AFA Gary J You have to enable interrupts.
AFA Gary J There's a sample on how to do this in our library, I think. It
was Guy Rice's
AFA Gary J modem CDA (the name slips my mind). He does this for a SSC, I
believe.
ShanoJ But he's not using a driver, Gary...
AFA Gary J Ooops, oh yeah. Sorry.
Matt DTS No...they are buffered if the loaded internal modem driver buffers
them!
Matt DTS (If they're generated drivers, you check the bit.)
JWankerl So I need a driver that buffers the data, right?
AFA Gary J Very true.
Matt DTS Joe: Basically, yes!
ShanoJ So, should I keep working on my driver, guys?!
JWankerl ...and I'm back around to needing a driver. :-)
JWankerl Yep, Jonah.
WildSwan Anybody mind if I ask a quick question (definitely off the
topic?)
Matt DTS Swan: You can try, but no promises.
ShanoJ Any other votes? :)
AFA Gary J GA, WildSwan (we're all off topic)
WildSwan Well anyway: I'm getting back into programming the toolbox/IIgs
and was
WildSwan wondering about this APDA development tools... anybody know about
them?
AFA Gary J What about them?
Matt DTS Swan: APDA sells several dozen Apple II development tools.
You'll have to be more specific.
WildSwan For instance, I want to use resources, but what do I need to
A:design them
WildSwan and B: link them into the executable code
WildSwan I've read about a linker LinkIIgs and Rez???
Matt DTS Swan: You'd probably be better off with a tool like Genesys if
you don't know much about resources.
WildSwan I'm still working off of just Orca/C and the stuff that came with
that
ShanoJ Swan: resources aren't linked into the code, they're attached to
it. If you're
ShanoJ new to this stuff, grab the new TB Ref and read about them (the
tech notes are
ShanoJ good place for info, too...)
WildSwan (Sorry don't know all the technical terms, you'll have to excuse
me,
WildSwan programming the IBM too long :) )
AFA Gary J You've made a good switch :)
ShanoJ As for creating them, your best bet is Genesys, which is a
commercial program
ShanoJ from SSSi. You can also use the APDA tool Rez, or some of the
shareware
ShanoJ resource editors in the ADV libraray.
WildSwan I'm going to buy the TB refs over Spring Break and have slowing
been downloadin
WildSwan the tech notes
WildSwan Yeah, I saw that-- what exactly comes with that?
WildSwan Are they good resource editors, Jonah (by the way, like your
programs :) )
AFA Gary J ORCA has a resource editor too, Design Master.
ShanoJ Well, they're not in the same league as Genesys (and Design
Master). These two
ShanoJ programs allow you to DRAW your interface elements on the screen,
then save