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APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
Tuesday, March 27, 1990 10:00 pm eastern time
Topic: Micol Advanced BASIC
Forum Leader: Dave Sugar (AFL Dyfet)
AFL Dyfet Okay, I think we will get started for tonight...Good evening
everyone, and
AFL Dyfet welcome to the Apple II Development Forum. Tonight we will be
discussing
HeadCase Mike how did you get the little speaker?
AFL Dyfet Micol Basic, and we have a very special guest from Micol Systems
with us here.
Micol Sys Hi Mike! Glad you could be gere tonight!
AFL Dyfet We will be using PROTOCOL tonight starting NOW. This means that
if you wish
AFL Dyfet to ask a question, simply enter a '?' on a line by itself, and if
you wish to
WAUC Jeff hello
AFL Dyfet comment on the current question being discussed, enter a '!' on a
line by
AFL Dyfet itself. You will each be called in turn. Before we begin, I
would like to
AFL Dyfet now turn the floor over to our guest, so that he may have an
opertunity to
AFL Dyfet introduce himself. Go ahead, Ron, you have the floor now :)
Micol Sys Hi all!
Micol Sys I'm here tonight to answer
Micol Sys all your questions about Micol Advanced BASIC...
Micol Sys as a short overview...
Micol Sys let me just say, there are two versions, one for the GS, and
another for
Micol Sys the IIe/c (w/128k). Both version use the full capabilities of the
machine
Micol Sys it was designed to run on, and offer far more than Applesoft, and
many other
Micol Sys compiled languages offer.
Micol Sys Micol Advanced BASIC takes the best features of Pascal and C and
combine them
Micol Sys with the easy and flexibility of BASIC that you've all grown
accustomed to.
Micol Sys Which means that, unlike using Pascal and C, you can get all the
programming
Micol Sys power of a modern language, without having to start learning how
to program
Micol Sys all over again from scratch. You can build on your BASIC
knowledge, instead
Micol Sys of throwing it away.
Micol Sys I'd now like to answer all of your questions... so please fire
away!
WAUC Jeff this really is not a question
WAUC Jeff but I would like to know what is the queue of people who will be
here
WAUC Jeff this evening....that is all that I need to know GA
Micol Sys I don't understand
BLACKSHEEP !
Micol Sys I have no control over who will be here tonight
Micol Sys GA
WAUC Jeff was wondering what the schedule it for who is presenting
Micol Sys I am presenting, Jeff... My name is Ron Lewin, and my company is
Micol Systems,
WAUC Jeff Ok ....sorry maybe this was not a questionthat could be answered
Micol Sys publishers of Micol Advanced BASIC
Micol Sys GA
AFL Dyfet Okay, go ahead Blacksheep...
WAUC Jeff i guess I just wanted to know what was planned...ok never mind my
question
BLACKSHEEP Will your program expand graph. and memory usage to the full
amount of
BLACKSHEEP your computer?
AFL Dyfet A question snuck in as a comment :)
Micol Sys Yes...
Micol Sys if you have a GS... there are built in commands which allow you
to
Micol Sys use to Super Hires Graphics, and programs you create
Micol Sys with Micol Advanced BASIC (MAB, for short) will automatically use
the full
Micol Sys memory of your GS... that means you can have programs and arrays
up to 8 megs.
BLACKSHEEP Great! Thanks. Done.
Micol Sys If you have a IIe/c, MAB-e/c will use the full capabilities of
that machine,
Micol Sys for instance, 560x190 resolution (max), 16 colors (max), and
Micol Sys your programs can be up to 74k... twice what Applesoft allows.
GA
Micol Sys plus built in sound commands for each
AFL Dyfet Okay, GA Scott, you have the floor now...
AFL Scott For those of us who just purchased Micol Advanced BASIC, can you
tell us some
AFL Scott of the programs we may have seen that were written with it? Also,
can you tell
AFL Scott us some of the real advantages of MAB over other dialects of GS
specific
AFL Scott basic?
AFL Scott GA
Micol Sys whew...
Micol Sys ok... there have been many programs, both commercial and PD that
have been
Micol Sys written with MAB... I know that Tom Snyder publishes software
written with MAB,
Micol Sys as well as Britannica Software... MAB is ideal for developers
because it
Micol Sys makes it easier for them to bring their software which was written
using
Micol Sys structured compilers on other computers over to the Apple II
line.
Micol Sys Also, because of source code compatibility between the IIe/c
version and
Micol Sys the GS version, you can write one program, which when compiled
under each
Micol Sys version, produces a ProDOS 8 program for the IIe and a GS/OS
program for GS,
Micol Sys so they can hit the entire Apple II market at once.
Micol Sys You'll also fine Mike Yost's Ballistics program (good game) here
on AO,
Micol Sys which was written using MAB, and I've seen a few adventure
programs written
Micol Sys with MAB. Alot of specific purpse stuff (like data aquisition
software(
Micol Sys has been written using MAB.
AFL Scott Great, {S Thanks} Done.
Micol Sys As far as advantages over other GS BASIC compilers...
Micol Sys there are many, such as the speed...
BillP a:)
Micol Sys the flexibility...
Micol Sys and especially, the support. You don't see them here, do you?
Micol Sys GA
AFL Scott Nope!:)
AFL Scott Thanks, Ron!:)
AFL Dyfet I gather that the IIgs version uses the same core graphics
commands as the 8
AFL Dyfet bit version. Is there full support for the toolbox in the IIgs
version?
Micol Sys Yes and Yes...
AFL Dyfet Best of both worlds then :)
Micol Sys both use HPLOT, for instance, to draw lines...
Micol Sys there may be some changes needed due to the different resolutions
of the
Micol Sys screens, and the lack of the toolbox on the IIe to do some
graphics functions.
Micol Sys The GS version has full Toolbox support two ways:
Micol Sys 1) With built in commands like WINDOW, MOUSE and MENU, which
access tools for
Micol Sys you...
Micol Sys and 2) Through a generic TOOLBOX command, which allows you to
access ANY tool
Micol Sys you like, so if there's any toolbox out there (such as custom
tools),
Micol Sys you can call it yourself... and if Apple introduces new toolboxes,
you can
AFL Scott !
Micol Sys call them manually, too. I believe AC/BASIC lacks such a feature,
locking you
Micol Sys into the toolbox calls which they support. GA
BillP Hi Joey {S applause }
A GibberFC Joe {S Excellent}
AFL Dyfet Okay, GA Scott...
JSchober [ :), hi all, {S Thanks!} ]
AFL Scott Ron, mention that you can enhance readability of programs that use
the toolbox
AFL Scott by defining variables for tool calls that you use. I think it
would help
AFL Scott people understand just how the toolbox is supported. Thanks,
Done!:)
Micol Sys Ok...
Micol Sys with the generic TOOLBOX command...
Micol Sys you call it using this format TOOLBOX
(Toolboxnumber,Toolnumber....)
Micol Sys you can customize it by using variable names
Micol Sys such as:
Micol Sys TOOLBOX (Quick_Draw%, Fill_Rectangle%: Rectangle_Number%)
Micol Sys which makes your toolbox calls very readable.
Micol Sys Really, this is a technical issue which would take a bit longer to
explain,
Micol Sys so I'll just say that basically (pun, pun) Micol Advanced BASIC
programs
Micol Sys are far more easy to read and understand than your average BASIC
programs.
Micol Sys which makes it easier to debug, and modify at a later date. GA
AFL Dyfet Okay, I believe Tamira is next...GA Tams...
Tamira 2 ques really.....How well does it work on the IIc and will the
support be as
Tamira good for the IIc as for the IIe and GS
Micol Sys the answer to both those questions is:
Micol Sys {S EXCELLENT}
Micol Sys ;)
Tamira I am planning to expand my IIc and this seems like a beneficiall
piece of soft
JSchober (omigosh!)
Tamira ware I was wondering if it is as good as it sounds
Tamira GA SORRY
Micol Sys Micol Advanced BASIC is even better than it sounds ;)
Tamira :(
Micol Sys on the IIc...
Micol Sys you get to use lots of features that Applesoft never allowed you
to.
RMY I agree, better!!
Micol Sys Remember, Applesoft is now over 11 years old, and was never
designed for
Micol Sys today's Apple II, and does not contain any features standard in a
modern
Micol Sys programming language. One BIG benefit of the MAB over Applesoft
is that
Micol Sys you get a integrated full screen editor, like a word processor,
and when
Micol Sys MAB encounters an error in your program, it returns you to the
editor, with
Micol Sys the cursor over the place in file where the error occured. Plus,
it lets
Micol Sys you write programs twice as large and many times faster than
Applesoft on
Micol Sys the IIc.
Micol Sys The support for both machines is equal. Believe it or not, the
IIe/c product
A2GS BRB
Micol Sys is actually NEWER than the GS product. We thought MAB GS was so
good, we
Micol Sys said, heck! why not make a IIe/c version... and so we took MABGS
and
Micol Sys converted it to work on the IIe/c. It's a new product, and you
can count
Micol Sys on our support. GA
AFL Dyfet How efficiant a compiler is MAB on the IIe or IIc? Some basic
compilers are
Tamira when will it be available???
AFL Dyfet notorious for the size of their runtime and code they genorate :)
?
Micol Sys It is available NOW
Micol Sys Code generation is VERY efficient...
Tamira great!!!! sorry that's all
Micol Sys Micol systems believes in the highest levels of efficiency
possible... that's
Micol Sys why MAB was written ENTIRELY in assembly, on a IIgs. Not ported
from another
Micol Sys computer as many compilers often are.
Micol Sys GA
Coach101 Is there support in MAB for subroutines written in other languages
and
Coach101 compiled/assembled independant of MAB?
Micol Sys GA?
AFL Dyfet I think so, Ron...
Micol Sys Yes...
Micol Sys MAB allows you to link in machine language programs/routines...
Micol Sys with a few conditions:
Micol Sys on the IIe version, the code must be in a special format (so it
can be
Micol Sys relocated), although you can BLOAD any routine and CALL it to get
around that.
Micol Sys on the GS, the code must use our special FASTLOAD file format to
be linked in..
Micol Sys currently, our own assembler (which we offer to MAB owners at a
reduced price)
Micol Sys is the only one which will currently generate these files, but we
have
Micol Sys supplied the file format to Glen Bredon, so he can implement it in
Merlin 16.'
Micol Sys GA
Coach101 Is there any plans for an OMF to FastLoad converter?
Micol Sys Not really... our devlepment resources are currently tied up with
other
Micol Sys projects, and such a converter would be somewhat difficult. GA
Coach101 Thank you, done. GA
AFL Dyfet On the IIe/c version, is the relocatable format the same as Apple
EDASM 'REL',
AFL Dyfet or something entirely different?
Micol Sys Something entirely different... simpler... we just ask that
you...
Micol Sys put your actual machine language program at the top, followed by
$00 00,
Micol Sys followed by your data. The linker handles relocating your program
for you,
Micol Sys and leaves the data alone.
Micol Sys GA
AFL Dyfet Okay, GA A2...
A2GS I hope Ron won't mind if I break away from this all important
topic....
A2GS ...Micol Basic....
Micol Sys Micol Advanced BASIC
Micol Sys we have an older 8 bit product called Micol BASIC, and I don't
want to confuse
Micol Sys anybody
A2GS Excuse Me !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! MICOL ADVANCED
BASIC!!!!!!!!!!
A2GS :)
Micol Sys into thinking that the old product (Micol BASIC) offers all these
neat features
AFL Dyfet What is your question, A2?
A2GS I have 3 short technical questions which I hope somebody may be
able to answer.
Micol Sys Let's hear 'em
Micol Sys but make it quick... some people are paying for this, and want MAB
info
A2GS 1) I assembled a program with Merlin 16+ running on a 5.0 based
disk...
A2GS but the program won't work when I try running it from a 4.0 sys.
disk...Why??
A2GS Anyone?
AFL Dyfet Lots of possible reasons, depending on what tools you are using
and what it
AFL Dyfet does...
RMY Did you use any 5.0-specific tool calls, or did the Merlin library
use any?
A2GS Does not use any tools....
Micol Sys That's a pretty large question
AFL Dyfet Yes, it is, and could probably best be answered in one of the
message base
AFL Dyfet areas...
AFL Dyfet What were #2 and 3, A2?
A2GS #2
A2GS ...
A2GS Never mind 2....
A2GS onto 3....What is a Dot File??
AFL Dyfet What do you mean by dot file?
A2GS Supposedly the New Orca assembler has Dot File Support...What the
heck is that?
A2GS Anyone? No one?
Coach101 I have no idea what they are talking about
AFL Dyfet I think I do...
AFL Scott Nor do I
Micol Sys Sounds like a question for the Byteworks area in Industry
Connection. Next!'
A2GS I'm done....Sorry for the interruption Ron...I didn't think the
Q's were that
A2GS long.
AFL TimB Does Micol plan a booth at Applefest (sorry if this has already
been answered).
AFL Dyfet Perhaps he means support for 'device' names, such as .d1/, in
paths, which,
AFL Dyfet under the old ProDOS scheme, were illegal...
Micol Sys Well, Tim...
AFL Scott {S Brb|
AFL TimB Yes, Ron...
Micol Sys at this time, No. That's because we've had some disagreements in
the past
Micol Sys when we've attended Applefest... Namely, having our booth, which
was
A2GS Could be, but that's a weird name for it....never heard the term
used before.
Micol Sys right beside Apple, moved on us, because APDA decided at the last
minute it
Micol Sys wanted to go, and it wanted a booth beside Apple... so Cambridge
gave them
Micol Sys ours. Also, our blimp got put through the trash compactor, which
is a long
Micol Sys story which I'll be glad to tell after the conference.
AFL TimB I feel that your presence, along with some other developers, at
Applefest....
Micol Sys We still might go, however.
AFL Dyfet Neither have I, A2...I am sorry to hear about your past
difficulties with
AFL TimB is important to the Apple II's future.
AFL TimB /done
AFL Dyfet Cambridge, Ron...and hope you do change your mind too...
Tamira !
RMY Agree... Ron should go!
AFL TimB We'll keep you entertained Ron. ;)
AFL Dyfet GA Tams...
Micol Sys True, AFL, but we have conflicts with CMI which are not just going
to disappear
Tamira I just wanted to say that I heard that A Fest in NJ
Micol Sys becuase it would be better for the Apple II community... I agree
it would be
Tamira is going to be more just computer fest cause Apple does not
consider it a
Micol Sys better if we were there, but sometimes we must make decisions like
this.
Tamira national show just regional
AFL TimB Agreed Ron. :)
DangardAce {S Boing}
Micol Sys GA
Tamira and is not planning to go
DangardAce {S Goahead}
Tamira ga
SkySinger Can you tell me where I can get complete descriptions of both
versions of MAB?
Micol Sys Sure can... in two places...
Micol Sys 1) If you go into Let's Discuss in Apple II Developer's Forum, and
enter the
Micol Sys Programming Environments topic, you'll find a folder called Micol
Advanced
Micol Sys BASIC. The first 10 messages in the folder give plenty of
description, and
Micol Sys the next 40 messages are questions and answers.
Micol Sys Also, if you go into the Software Libraries in Apple II
Developer's Forum,
Micol Sys and select the "Applications" library, you'll find a demo disk for
Micol
Micol Sys Advanced BASIC GS which you can download which gives you lots of
info and
Micol Sys shows what MAB can do. GA
SkySinger Thanks, I'll check it out. GA
RMY Demo disk is awesome!!
Tamira what about demo for IIc
Micol Sys Especially the DeskTop part, Mike ;)
Micol Sys No demo for the IIc, sorry...
AFA Gary J If I ordered MAB for my IIGS, would I get a program that would
let me produce
Tamira :(
Micol Sys becuase the GS demo makes extensive use of the Tools
AFA Gary J code for the IIe/IIc as WELL as the IIGS, or would I have to
purchase a
AFA Gary J separate compiler for the IIe/IIc machines?
Micol Sys They are seperate products, Gary...
Micol Sys MAB GS runs under GS/OS and produces full blown 16 bit GS/OS
apps.
Micol Sys MAB-e/c runs under ProDOS 8 and produces 65C02 code meant to run
under ProDOS 8
Micol Sys however, we do offer a nice discount to people who want both.
Micol Sys GA
AFA Gary J Thanks!
AFL Dyfet Okay, Go ahead Sky...
SkySinger I take it that MAB IIe could be used on a GS and that the finished
code would
SkySinger run on a GS, a IIe or a IIc?
Micol Sys Absolutely correct. GA
SkySinger Thanks GA
AFL Dyfet Okay, do we have any more Micol Advanced Basic questions
tonight?
AFA Gary J What's the list price of the products?
Micol Sys Ok....
Tamira yes where can I get it???
Micol Sys Micol Advanced BASIC GS sells for $145 list...
Micol Sys Micol Advanced BASIC IIe/c sells for $89.95, which we feel is and
exceptional
Micol Sys value.
Micol Sys You can order directly from us here on AO...
Micol Sys by sending mail to MICOL SYS with your VISA/MC #, your address,
and which
Micol Sys products you would like. As a special deal for
Micol Sys everybody here tonight, you can get both products
Micol Sys for $199.95.
Tamira savings of $35
Micol Sys GA
AFL Dyfet With shipping?? :)
Micol Sys Shipping is $5 extra... sorry
Tamira maybe if you are nice he will GIVE you one David :)
Micol Sys but since I forget, we'll pay shipping
Micol Sys so $199.95 flat
RMY US$?
Micol Sys of course, Mike