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APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
August 15, 1989   10:00 pm eastern time
Topic:   The new IIGS, Pascal & C programming
Forum Leader:  Dave Sugar  (AFL Dyfet)


AFL Dyfet  Welcome to the Apple II Development Forum.  Tonight's topic is
           Pascal and C
AFL Dyfet  programming.   We will be using *PROTOCOL* beginning now, so if
           you wish to ask a question, type a '?' on
AFL Dyfet  a line by itself, and if you wish to make a comment, like Coach
           has indicated,
AFL Dyfet  please enter a '!' on a line by itself.  I will call each of you
           in turn.
AFL Dyfet  Coach, you seem to be first, so you have the floor now.  Go ahead
           :)
Coach101   I would like to commend Matt on getting some technical
           information
Coach101   posted here on AppleLink on the same day that Apple made the
           announcement...
Coach101   GREAT JOB!!!!    ga
Matt DTS   <blush>
AFL Dyfet  Thank you Coach, and especially you, Matt, for your prompt and
           informative
AFL Marty  Yes indeed.  It's much appreciated!
AFL Dyfet  release of that information :)...I believe A2GS has the first
           question, you
AFL Dyfet  have the floor now...
A2GS       Anybody here have an opportunity to use the (so-called) new GS?
AFA Parik  !
Matt DTS   !
Dave Lyons !
JimMensch  !
JimMensch  (he he he)
AFL Dyfet  GA Parik, you seem to be first :)
A2GS       I thought so! :) ....
AFA Parik  yeah - from a users viewpoint, its nice!  I'm not saying its my
           dream machine,
AFA Parik  but the mouse really seems smooth for me now.  
AFA Parik  I'll let the elitists who have used for it decades probably say
           more  :)  ga
A2GS       smooth as opposed to what?
AFA Parik  er...rough?  :)  
Matt DTS   I like mine tremendously.  I lust for one at home.  :)
AFL Dyfet  Ha Matt, Dave, and Jim, I'm sure all three of you have something
           you wish
AFL Dyfet  to say :)
A2GS       Say it!
Matt DTS   My hard drives are in slots 7 and 4 with full AppleTalk and
           desktop mouse abilities.
JimMensch  Well,
JimMensch  as far as the current installed base, I would say its nothing to
           write home about.
A2GS       Come on Jim, don't let a little company like Apple bother you.
           :)
Coach101   ?
Dave Lyons I like mine a lot.
JimMensch  However for new owners is gives them a little more for their money
           (more memory, easier mem upgrade)
JimMensch  a slot or two more and a little more flexability when setting the
           control panel
A2GS       Will there be possible compatibility problems? 
JimMensch  other than that its (at least software wise) about the same.
JimMensch  Not that we know of, but I am sure some application somewhere will
           not work with it...
A2GS       Any vector locations changed, softswitches, etc...
AFL TimB   Hi y'all
AFL TimB   Mr Mensch!
JimMensch  vector locations are the same for both machines
Matt DTS   <GA>
JimMensch  no new softswitches to note
A2GS       Is it safe to assume that the 256k ROM now contains nearly all the
           new tools?
JimMensch  just a new memory configuration. (1.125 meg instead of 1.25
           meg...)
A2GS       and patches.
AFL Dyfet  Okay, any further comments, Gentlemen? I see Matt has finished up
           :)
JimMensch  No, not all the tools, but it does contain 112K more tools
Matt DTS   The discussion in Misc. Dev. Topics lists the tools now in ROM
           that weren't before.
JimMensch  ga
Matt DTS   <GA>  <again>  :)
A2GS       finished :)
Dave Lyons ga
AFL Dyfet  You have the floor now, Coach, GA...
Coach101   Does the new machine's "increased slot capability" indicate a 14
           (16) slot
JimMensch  !
Matt DTS   !
Coach101   model or just an ability to re-use some previously dedicated
           ports?  ga
AFL Dyfet  GA Jim...or Matt :)
Matt DTS   Coach, the message in Misc. talks about the exact slot changes,
           mostly to 1,2,4 and 7, with some to 5.
JimMensch  Well, first, you no longer need to have slot 4 set to mouse to use
           the desktop
JimMensch  ga matt... :)
Matt DTS   GS/OS-style dynamic slot arbitration is *not* present in this ROM.
            <GA>
Matt DTS   (If I should be repeating this instead of referring to the forum,
           someone please tell me.  :)
Coach101   I will get the rest of the details from the Misc Dev Topic....  
           Thanks
Coach101   -Q
AFL Dyfet  Okay, thank you again :)...I see that our Q stands next on JMCPHD
           (I listed
JMCPHD     I thought this was going to be about C and Pascal
AFL Dyfet  from the start, Coach :)....GA, JMCPHD, you have the floor
           now...
AFL Dyfet  So did I originally, JMCPHD :)...I think we will be getting to
           that topic
AFL Dyfet  shortly :)...Okay,  I believe AFA Parik has the floor next, GA
           Parik.
AFA Parik  couple of questions.  whats the best way to learn about the
           toolbox in pascal?
AFA Parik  I just larned pascal, and sorta know the toolbox, but not pascal
           interface.
AFA Parik  ga
AFA Parik  (do the compiler books have info?)
AFL Dyfet  GA JMC...
JMCPHD     both orca c and orca pascal mostly refer you to the tool box
           reference books
AFL Dyfet  GA A2GS...
A2GS       Have you tried looking at the source which comes with Hodgepodge
           when you
A2GS       get the Programmers intro to the GS?
AFA Parik  no 
AFA Parik  will try it.
AFA Parik  second question - can TS2 be deleted if one uses the new GS?
AFL Dyfet  GA Dave...
Dave Lyons On your first question--not sure what kind of stuff you're looking
           for.  Since you
Dave Lyons already know assembly, you've got a good grip on what goes on when
           you call
Dave Lyons a toolbox routine from Pascal (because it's the same as when
Dave Lyons you call from assembly!).  Are you asking about type casting or
           something?
Dave Lyons On TS2--I haven't tried deleting it, and you should certainly keep
           it there on any shipping disk.  GA
AFL Dyfet  Okay, GA Jim...
JimMensch  Well, with a classic GS (or what we internally call a ROM 2
           machine), the GS you all have right now, y
JimMensch  you can delete TS3. On the new GS you can delete TS2 and some of
           the tool files if you are really
JimMensch  tight for space. (like you could delete the window/menu/control
           tools...)
JimMensch  But this should only be done by the users themselves... GA
AFL Dyfet  GA Dave...
Dave Lyons (I believe the literature calls ROM 01 "ROM 2.0" and ROM 00 "ROM
           1.0".)  GA
AFL Dyfet  Q=AFA Parik(Dave Lyons), AFL TimB, AFL Marty, JMCPHD, A2GS...Are
           there any
AFL Dyfet  further comments?'
AFA Parik  lastly, is there any way to identity for a programmer which
           machine you're
AFA Parik  running on?
AFA Parik  (as in new gs vs old
Matt DTS   !
AFL Dyfet  GA Matt....
Matt DTS   The ROM version routine ($FE1F) still works.  It returns $03 for
           ROM 03 in the new GS (there is no
Matt DTS   ROM 02, to avoid the same confusion we got giving a ROM version of
           01 for ROM 2.0).  GA
AFA Parik  thanks - done
AFL Dyfet  Thank you Matt...I believe Doctor Why had a comment to
           add...GA...
Doctor Why I don't know which Pascal Parik has, but the source code for the
           units are
Doctor Why available. Print them off...you will refer to them a lot!  GA
AFL Dyfet  Thanks for that suggestion.  I believe our next question is from
           AFL TimB,
AFL TimB   I've heard that 5.0 has problems and that 5.0.1 is being released,
           is this....
Matt DTS   !
AFL TimB   true, what are the problems and should we be concerned?
AFL Dyfet  GA Matt...
Matt DTS   We are aware of a few problems in 5.0.  Most notable are problems
           described in this forum..
Matt DTS   ...concerning BASIC.System, and some new Standard File calls not
           behaving as they should.
Matt DTS   However, no new revision to the System Software has been announced
           at this time.
AE PhilM   !
Matt DTS   (Should one come along, though, we'll be sure to let you know.) 
           GA
AFL Dyfet  Perhaps a simple update with an installer script would be a good
           way to
AFL Dyfet  provide such an update?  Well, I see Phil would like to add a
           comment, GA
AFL Dyfet  Phil.
AE PhilM   I am using some of thoes new SF calls....can you be more specific
           Matt?
Matt DTS   We're aware that in the "SF...2" call, the auxiliary type is not
           returned properly.
AE PhilM   thoes = those
JimMensch  Don't pop the disk out while you have the standard file window
           open ;)
Matt DTS   Specifically, not only does the new typelist function not match
           auxtypes, filterprocs don't
AE PhilM   Thanks!  
Matt DTS   get the right auxtype either.  Old calls still work properly,
           though.
Matt DTS   (And what Jim said.)  GA
AFL TimB   And another question..
AFL Dyfet  Okay, I believe our next question is from Marty, GA Marty...
AFL Marty  Tim has another, GA Tim.
AFL TimB   You say that not all tools are in ROM, which ones currently aren't
           in ROM?
Matt DTS   !
AFL Dyfet  GA Matt...
Matt DTS   (I get to repeat it anyway :)
AE PhilM   ?
Matt DTS   The tools that were in ROM 01 are present, as are the Window,
           Control, Menu, Dialog, Scrap, Font...
Matt DTS   ...and List managers, and Line Edit.  All other tools are still
           RAM based.  GA>
AFL TimB   (Done Dave)
AFL Scott  ?
AFL Dyfet  Okay, Tim....no problem :)...GA Marty...
AFL TimB   Thanks
AFL Marty  Would I be correct in saying that the new GS works only with...
AFL Marty  system 5.0 or greater?
JimMensch  yes
JimMensch  too a point...
Matt DTS   Sorta.  :)
JimMensch  old system disks will boot and run just fine
JimMensch  but be aware that they do not have the new patch file, so some
           bugs might crop up...
AFL Marty  I see... you anticipated my next question then...
JimMensch  and no, you can not just copy that patch file and expect it to
           work...
AFL Marty  I was wondering about programs like PWG which don't work with 5.0
           now.
AFL Marty  (please don't FN me when I'm asking a question)
JimMensch  I use it on mine...
JimMensch  ga
AFL Marty  Thank you.  Done.
AFL Dyfet  Okay, I believe our next question is from JMCPHD.  GA JMC...
JMCPHD     I have both Orca c and Pascal I need to learn about the tool box,
           suggestions?
JMCPHD     ga
AFL Dyfet  The official Addison-Wesley toolbox manuals are loaded with
           information, though
AFL Dyfet  not nessisarily in a manner easy to follow or to learn how to
           use....I see
AFL Dyfet  Matt wishes to comment, GA Matt...
Matt DTS   Apple publishes a book called "Programmer's Introduction to the
           Apple IIgs" which gives a pretty good
Matt DTS   overview of the desktop programming concept.  It comes with a
           sample application in a few languages.
Matt DTS   <GA>
Coach101   Matt took the words out of my mouth..   ga
AFL Dyfet  I have never seen that publication myself, although I am vaguely
           aware of it.
AFL Dyfet  It sounds like something worth looking into :)...Does anyone else
           have any
AFL Dyfet  suggestions or recommendations?
AFL Vince  Morgan Davis and Dan Gookin'sd books are worthwhile to look at.
AFL Dyfet  GA Phil...and thank you Vince...
AE PhilM   Never hurts to study the example code that Apple makes available
AE PhilM   done
AFL Dyfet  That is true, Phil...GA JMC...
JMCPHD     were is the sample code Phil?
AE PhilM   ? (incase you forgot :))
AE PhilM   Its available thru APDA.
Coach101   !
Matt DTS   It's also online in this forum.
Coach101   -!
AFL Dyfet  GA Coach....and no, Phil, you haven't been forgotten...
Matt DTS   <sorry Coach>
Coach101   Matt took the words from me again!   :)
AFL Dyfet  Okay, my node is a little slow :)...I believe our next question is
           from A2GS,
AFL Dyfet  GA.
A2GS       How much of an improvement in GS/OS 5.0 boot time is there?
AFL Dyfet  GA Matt...
Matt DTS   It depends on how you look at things.
Matt DTS   By the clock, not much.  It actually takes a little longer.
A2GS       why??
Matt DTS   Just under the surface, quite a bit:  5.0 actually loads between
           two to four times as much information
Matt DTS   from the disk at boot time, but only takes a few more seconds to
           do it.  <ga>
A2GS       huh?
AFL Dyfet  This is very true, Matt, and impressive :)
AFL Dyfet  Basically, A2GS, it loads 3 times as much from disk in about the
           same ammount
AFL Dyfet  of time as 4.0 took.
A2GS       I don't quite follow, if a lot of the RAM tools are now in ROM it
           should be
A2GS       faster.
Matt DTS   Oh, you didn't *say* you meant on the new machine.
A2GS       sorry :)
Matt DTS   Boot time (time to load the OS before the program is launched) is
           about the same, but a little less
A2GS       thought that's what we were mainly discussing.
Matt DTS   since the patch file TS3 is smaller than TS2.  However, when
           programs are launched, there's a much
Matt DTS   more noticeable difference, since most or all of the desktop tools
           don't have to be loaded from disk.
Matt DTS   I've not compared a new machine to a ROM 01 GS booting the same
           disk, so I can't quote figures.
Matt DTS   Sorry.  GA>
AFL Dyfet  Well, we started out scheduled for C and Pascal, A2GS, so :)...I
           believe the
A2GS       Does the outside of the machine look the same as our current
           lovable gs?
A2GS       sorry. :)
AFL Dyfet  That's okay, A2GS...I'm curious too, now :)
Dave Lyons !
AFL Dyfet  GA Dave...
Dave Lyons Yes, looks the same from the outside.
Dave Lyons (ga)
JimMensch  !
AFL Dyfet  GA Jim...
Coach101   Darn,  I wanted one with Scullye's signature   :)
JimMensch  Well, I just did the definative boot test here at my desk...
AFL Marty  (You can make an "X" yourself, Coach :)
A2GS       hehe
JimMensch  I started both machines into self test, then cold started them
           both at the exact moment
A2GS       and....
JimMensch  and the *new* GS boots into the finder almost 1.5 seconds faster
           (not even 10%...)... GA
AFL Dyfet  Okay, I believe our next questionis from AFA Parik.  GA Parik.
A2GS       too bad,done,thanks. :( :)   (mixed feelings)
AFA Parik  In 5.0, are lower case files supposed to be at the end of a
           alphabet list with
AFA Parik  deluxepaint II, etc that use old SF tools?  ga (done) afk :)
JimMensch  !
AFL Dyfet  GA Jim...
A2GS       !
JimMensch  Parik, thats an..... well... an oversight.... (as matt loves to
           point out...
JimMensch  we know about that problem also. sorry. GA
AFL Dyfet  A2GS, Ga...
A2GS       never mind Jim just mentioned it :)
AFL Dyfet  Okay....I believe our next question is from Phil, GA Phil...
AE PhilM   Whenever I issue a MIDI control call to play or record I have to
           reset my Casio
JimMensch  !
AE PhilM   HT 700 by turning it off and on again, this happens in Audio
           Animator and MSJR
AE PhilM   but the problem does not occur on the DX7.
AFL Dyfet  GA Jim...
JimMensch  You can try to alter your packet timming (delay between packets)
           the casios can get confused if
JimMensch  you send MIDI data at full speed.
AE PhilM   !
AFL Dyfet  GA Phil...
AE PhilM   Jim this doesnt happen once I turn it off an on again...it will
           accept whatever
JimMensch  it will lose the very start of some packets (bit 7) and assume you
           are using running satatus.. GA
AE PhilM   I send it after that?  Any suggestions ??
AE PhilM   Oh OK...I'll try that.  Thanks!
AFL Dyfet  Okay, I believe our next question is from AFL Scott...GA
           Scott...
AFL Scott  If a classic GS bombs in about 5 months so, needing motherboard
           replacement...
AFL Scott  will dealers replace the old motherboard with the new one?
JimMensch  !
AFL Scott  should read, or so.... :)
AFL Dyfet  This would seem logical in my mind, since I wouldn't expect them
           to keep dual
AFL Dyfet  inventories once production is in swing and the old one is phased
           out...GA
AFL Dyfet  Jim...
JimMensch  no way to say for sure how long dealers will stock both mother
           boards.. after all they didn't 
Coach101   !
JimMensch  automatically upgrade IIc's in service when the mem expansion came
           out.
JimMensch  ga
AFL Dyfet  Okay, GA Coach...
Coach101   It would be a dangerous swap.  A new motherboard would
           invalidate
JimMensch  !
Coach101   a number of existing memory expansion port cards..    i.e., fix
           the
Coach101   motherboard and wait for a new memory card/PAL from a third
           party
Coach101   supplier. 
Coach101   ga
AFL Dyfet  GA Jim...
JimMensch  What coach says is probably true, since mem boards may not be
           compatible I think we will be forced to
JimMensch  supply both boards for quite some time.
JimMensch  ga
AFL Scott  (Followup)
AFL Dyfet  GA Scott...
AFL Marty  (-?)
AFL Scott  Does Apple's GS Memory expansion card work with the new
           motherboard?  Is ther
AFL Scott  e an anticipated upgrade?
JimMensch  !
Matt DTS   !
AFL Dyfet  Jim seems to have it first :)...GA Jim...
AFL Scott  Upgrade memory wise... I know about the no upgrade policy for the
           mommy board.
JimMensch  Apples memory expansion works just fine with the new motherboard,
           and so do some third party boards
JimMensch  its just that some third party boards do not work... as if they
           pgrade. Ask them. GA
AFL Scott  I was only referring to the Apple Board.  Thanks!
AFL Dyfet  Okay, see that A2GS has the floor again..GA A2gs...
A2GS       How can we tell when we're using a "new" GS does the bootup screen
           say REV.ROM3
Matt DTS   !
AFL Dyfet  GA Matt...
Matt DTS   Actually, yes.  Where the current GS says "ROM Version 01", the
           new one says "ROM Version 3". GA.
A2GS       Done, (for the moment) :) 
AFL Dyfet  Did we miss 02 in there somewhere? :)...Okay, I believe the next
           question is
AFL Dyfet  from Phil...GA Phil...
AE PhilM   Just curious...I assume that Discovery is no longer
           appropriate...so how DO we
AE PhilM   refer to the *new* GS (identity crisis)
A2GS       !
AE PhilM   done
AFL Dyfet  GA A2gs...
Coach101   That is a "Matt approved" WYRM :)
A2GS       Should work like what COKE did...there's the "classic GS" and the
           "New GS" :)
AFL Dyfet  :)
AFA Parik  so will people prefer the classic?  :)
John moyln  (I doubt it...)
AFL Dyfet  Okay, I see we have reached the end of the que, so I will throw
           the floor
AFL Dyfet  open to all! :)
Doctor Why can we expect a diet version?  :)
A2GS       :)
AFL Dyfet  (Don't all speak up at once :)
John moyln well, I for one will "accidentally" short my gs if I have to get
           the new mother
John moyln board,t he switchable slots, and larger ROM are well worth it...
JimMensch  I think since the old GS only had 256K of mb RAM it should be
           called the "Diet GS"
A2GS       Sounds good to me!
AFL Dyfet  GS lite, Jim? :)
JimMensch  John, you will get the same motherboard you currently have...
AFA Parik  yup, the wonders of Applecare!  heheh
Doctor Why Less filling!
Coach101   Why does 5.0 RPM seem to forget how to talk to an AppleTalk
           printer?
AFA Parik  tastes bodacious!
John moyln (willt ake it to a dealer that I know, Jim...)
AE PhilM   BTW - TWGS and Vulcan work just fine in the *new* GS....the GS
           Ram, GS Ram+,
Matt DTS   Be more specific, Coach.
AE PhilM   and Ramkeeper will require PAL upgrades.
JimMensch  John, he will get the same board from Apple that he sends in... 
John moyln (ie. is willing to do that kind of swap...)
AFA Parik  really Jim?  bummer.
Coach101   Unless I visit the control panel AppleTalk/ImageWriter Cdev
           before
AE PhilM   Ramkeeper will also require a new EPROM.
A2GS       Would anyone say that for a developer, having a new GS is
           necessary? 
Coach101   going into APW, APW cannot seem to find the printer in slot-7.  
John moyln well if thats the case, just order a motherboard from CDA, they'll
           get some 
John moyln sooner or later...
JimMensch  Coach, install Appleshare on the boot disk and that will go
           away...
Coach101   No complaint, it just takes a long time to flush everything into
           the
AE PhilM   A2GS - if anything just to make sure you are compatible with it 
Coach101   bit bucket.....
JimMensch  he he he...