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APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
May 9, 1989  10:00 p.m. eastern time
Topic:  Apple IIGS Toolbox Programming
Forum Leader:  Gary Jacobson (AFA Gary J)

AFA Gary J OK....I guess we'll get started if we aren't getting a
	   banner....
AFA Parik  ???? (question to get into Queue)
AFA Gary J Welcome to the Apple II Development Forum.
Coach101   from what I have seen about the Ohio Kache system, I can't see
	   5.0
AFL Vince  I disagree, Coach..  Catch my review of all three in Call-Apple in
	   a couple months.
Coach101   doing that much.
AFA Gary J Tonight's topic (if we decide to stick to it) is Apple IIGS
	   Toolbox Programming
JSchober   I =might= get a TWGS at 10 MHz.  IF the price doesn't rise...
AFA Gary J AFL Dyfet is away this evening, so I'll be standing in for him.
AFL Vince  Did anyone tell you about GeneSys, Gary?
AFL Scott  Coach, think about how fast the GS is with TWGS AND V5, then
	   multiply disk
AFA Gary J GeneSys?  Seems like I heard something about that....
AFL Marty  ?
AFL Scott  access speed by about 4... Rocket is what you get!:)
Coach101   I agree with you Vince & Scott...   Found "Sir AWGS"'s statement
JSchober   Gawwwwd, Scott.  That's... ::faint::
AFA Gary J What is it?
Coach101   hard to swallow.   On reads, mayube, on writes, forget it...
AFL Vince  A new product announced at Applefest that may be of some interest
	   to everyone in this forum was 
AFL Scott  Will have to find it to see what he meant... Seems like OS bashing
	   is a fad
AFL Scott  at Claris!
AFL Vince  GeneSys..  GeneSys is a program generator for the GS...  A VERY
	   nice one 
AFL Scott  Howdy, Big guy!
JSchober   Program GENERATOR?  Hey, Matt... :)
AFA Gary J We'll dispense with protocol this evening unless a bunch more
	   people decide to
AFA Gary J drop in, Marty.
JSchober   Hey, Dave.  :)  (Wow, it's the DTS dudes! :)
Matt DTS   Hello.  Dave is late.
JSchober   Two seconds is "late"??  :)
Dave Lyons Matt is late too.  But he'll say it's my fault.
AFA Gary J Yes, I do recall now.  It generates windows and menus for you?
AFL Vince  It will create code for Windows, Dialogs, Menus, etc. In C,
	   Pascal, Assm, and the new Res format..
AFL Marty  What;s the difference between Genesys and that utility for
	   designing
Matt DTS   It *IS* your fault.
Dave Lyons (See?)
AFA Gary J (Hi Dave, Matt)
AFL Scott  Howdy, Dave!
AFL Marty  screen menus (I forget its name).
JSchober   Hmmmm... Vince... like a SuperDuperDLU, huh?
AFL Vince  DLU, Marty?
JSchober   Hi, Dwight.
Dave Lyons How many 'Fest-ers do we have here?  (Matt & I were there.)
AFL Marty  That's it.... DLU
Matt DTS   "Genesys", perhaps?
AFL Vince  Joe, yes only much more..  I was fairly impressed with the
	   potential.
AFL Vince  Matt, yes.
AFA Parik  regarding Genesys - a demo will be available on GEnie (and here I
	   guess :) in a
AFA Parik  couple of days.
JSchober   Hmmm.  Sounds neat.  I could use such a thing... :)
AFL Vince  Parik.. I have it to upload.
AFA Gary J Vince, how efficient is the code that is generated?
AFL Marty  I still don't know the difference.
AFL Marty  What does GeneSys do that DLU doesn't?
AFL Vince  Gary... since it mostly generates structures I would guess fairly
	   efficient..
AFL Vince  Menus, Windows, Controls, etc..  Also generates tool startup and
	   shutdown..  It's DLU magnified
Coach101   Whats the tariff on Genesys?
JSchober   Welp, folks... I have to run, and study.  Yecch.  Y'all take care,
	   and see
AFL Vince  The price was the only thing that depressed me... $125..
AFA Gary J Bye, Joe
AFA Gary J Hi Frank
JSchober   you next week!!  :)  <SG: it's STILL not fair... but thanks.  :)
	   >
Matt DTS   Tool Startup and shut down is really easy to generate under 5.0
	   anyway
AFA Gary J Hi Dwight
JSchober   Hi Frank... and bye.  'Night!
Coach101   CUL Joe
AFL Vince  it will sell at Afest in Sept for $75 according the the
	   company..
Matt DTS   (Since there are _StartUpTools and _ShutDownTools calls which take
	   tool tables as input)
AFL FrankD Hi there, Gary!
AFL Vince  Matt... unfortunately, we wouldnt know... ;)
Coach101   DTS folks..... Any more firm information on actual release date
AFL Vince  You could always tell us about it.......drool...
AFA Parik  Lemme sneak this in: was orca/m v2.0 released at AppleFest?  I'm
	   gonna call and
AFL Scott  (that IS nice, Matt!!)
Matt DTS   This summer, coach.
AFA Parik  order it tommorow, but would like a nice nights sleep  :)
DwightW1   hello
Coach101   of 5.0, wil you take advance orders through APDA?
Dave Lyons I don't know of any ORCA/M announcements, personally.
AFA Parik  hellllooo?
AFA Gary J DTS people, could you fill us in on some of the "nifty" developer
	   type details
AFA Gary J of 5.0?
Coach101   Did Mike get ORCA-C out the door?
Matt DTS   There's about 1000 pages of engineering-level developer
	   documentation, Gary.
AFA Gary J (Anything more than the press release tells us?)
Matt DTS   Perhaps more specific questions would be in order.  :-)
AFL Vince  ships in 3 weeks.. 
AFA Gary J :)
Coach101   Then, you had better type fast!
AFA Gary J Right!
AFA Gary J :)
AFA Parik  How much faster is EXPRESSLOAD versus standard System Loader?
Coach101   Question, how fast is the I/O...  I saw talk of 1:1 speed..  What
	   does
Coach101   that mean (if true)
Dave Lyons That probably depends on a lot of things.  (Helpful, eh?)
AFA Gary J Such as?
Dave Lyons There is *effectively* 1:1 interleave on 3.5 disks now, with
	   ScatterRead:
Matt DTS   Gary, can you provide protocol so this can work fairly well? 
	   <please>
Coach101   Anybody else notice the change in Dave recently :)
AFA Parik  hehe
Dave Lyons the driver reads the blocks in whatever order they appear on disk
	   (normally 2:1 still), so you can
AFA Gary J OK... Protocol *ON* <just for Matt :)  >
AFL Vince  ?
Dave Lyons read a whole track in one revolution.
Dave Lyons (ga)
AFL Marty  <-- hates prorotol
AFA Gary J Q = Vince
AFL Marty  <-- hates protocol, too :)
Matt DTS   <let me catch expressload first, Gary>
AFA Gary J OK, GA Matt
Coach101   ?
Matt DTS   ExpressLoad pre-processes OMF files using shortcuts when possible,
	   and provides for a private data...
AFA Gary J Q = Parik (Matt), Vince, Coach
Matt DTS   ...segment so ExpressLoad knows where segments are, instead of
	   thrashing through the file looking.
Matt DTS   AppleWorks GS loads approximately four times faster just due to
	   ExpressLoad; Scatter Read drops it to
Matt DTS   somewhere around 35 seconds.  <GA>
AFA Parik  so the standard loader is still required (eg, no disk space
	   saving)
Matt DTS   (loading all modules, that is)(
AFA Parik  ga
Matt DTS   The standard loader is still required.  Expressed files are in
	   OMF; the Loader can load them also.
Matt DTS   ExpressLoad just gets first crack.  <GA>
AFA Gary J Ok, anything else, Parik?
AFA Parik  not for now
AFL Marty  ?
Coach101   Scatter read?
AFA Gary J Ok, Vince GA with your question
AFL Vince  Jim described a new tool that helps with creating a text editor..
	   can you elaborate a bit on what this
AFL Vince  might be?
AFA Gary J Q = Vince, Coach, Marty
Matt DTS   5.0 provides the new tool TextEdit.
Matt DTS   TE is like LineEdit, except it works on multi-line fields, like a
	   limited word-processor.
AFL Vince  <-- has followup
Matt DTS   It allows the editing functions, as well as painting images to
	   ports and retrieving text.
Matt DTS   It also allows multiple font styles/sizes.  It works as a control,
	   which means that TaskMaster
Matt DTS   will do all the work for you.  It's tool #34 and will be explained
	   in the developer docs that will
Matt DTS   be available when the disk ships.  <GA>
AFL Vince  Has the scrollling through Taskmaster been improved at all?
Matt DTS   Scrolling isn't all TaskMaster's fault, or even mostly.
AFA Parik  ?
DwightW1   ?
Matt DTS   It's the fault of people who redraw entire windows instead of just
	   their update regions, mostly.
AFA Gary J Q = Vince, Coach, Marty, Parik, Dwight
Matt DTS   But since QuickDraw has sped up region handling (esp. for
	   rectangular regions), programs who did
Matt DTS   it either way will see performance improvements.  <GA>
AFL Vince  Thanks, GA
AFA Gary J Ok, Coach, GA
Coach101   Back to I/O....
Coach101   Does read a track in rev mean that with a 1:1 interleave I could
	   do it....
Coach101   and what was the reference to Scatter Read.  GA
AFA Gary J Q = Coach, Marty, Parik, Dwight
Matt DTS   Scatter Read is what we call a new feature in the Apple 3.5 Drive
	   driver in System Software 5.0
Matt DTS   (Notice we're not calling this "GS/OS 5.0", because most of the
	   changes were tool changes that have...
Matt DTS   ...nothign to do with GS/OS).  Under certain conditions, the
	   driver actually has enough time...
Matt DTS   ...to read an entire track in one revolution of the disk, and
	   decode the blocks and interleave later.
Matt DTS   Since it reads the track in one spin, this can be referred to as
	   an "effective 1:1" interleave, even
Matt DTS   though the actual interleave on the disk is irrelevant.  With 2:1
	   disks, this gives slightly
Matt DTS   less (for housekeeping reasons) than a doubling of the speed.
Matt DTS   (The read must be a multi-block read of more than 5 blocks to
	   memory that is not slow or shadowed, and
Matt DTS   the read must not be cached.  If any of those are true, the timing
	   can't be made.)  <GA>
AFA Gary J Anything else, Coach?
Coach101   I see....    Neat trick.....  This would imply that 1:1
	   interleave
Coach101   could even work in certian limited cases.... Though the penalty
	   for
Coach101   missing would be attrocious.....    
Coach101   That concludes my ?  GA
AFA Gary J Ok, Marty GA
AFA Gary J Q = Marty, Parik, Dwight
AFL Marty  Your AWGS example (35 seconds)... how many modules are being
	   loaded?
AFA Parik  (hi dave :)
Matt DTS   All of them.  <GA>  :-)
AFA Gary J Hi, Dave
AFL Dyfet  Hello :)
Coach101   Good morning Dave
Dave Lyons !
AFL Marty  I understand that programs must go through a procedure...
AFL Marty  in order for ExpressLoad to work.....
AFL Marty  is this something the end user can do or must I (we) wait
	   for....
AFL Marty  an upgrade from software vendors to take advantage of
	   ExpressLoad?
Matt DTS   yes and no.
AFA Gary J Q = Marty (Matt, Dave), Parik, Dwight
Matt DTS   The utility Express (or ExpressIIgs in MPW land) converts a load
	   file to ExpressLoad format.
Matt DTS   This is necessary before ExpressLoad can use it, as this utility
	   does the pre-processing.
Matt DTS   The end user with APW or similar *could* do this, but there's the
	   caveat that ExpressLoad is unable
Matt DTS   to support some Loader calls.  Specifically, LoadSegmentbyNumber,
	   UnloadSegmentbyNumber (because
Matt DTS   Express rearranges the segments for maximum speed) and
	   GetLoadSegInfo (because Express doesn't use
Matt DTS   the Loader's data structures).  If the program uses those calls,
	   it should *not* be Expressed.
Matt DTS   However, we find that their use has been pretty limited,
	   especially since Load/UnloadSegByName is
Matt DTS   so much more useful anyway.  So it's possible, but not recommended
	   for the faint of heart.
AFL Marty  Where does this leave the end user without APW or similar?
Matt DTS   I did it on my DESK.ACCS directory at home and got a 33% decrease
	   in boot time, for example.
Matt DTS   The end user who's not knowledgeable is always better off waiting
	   for upgrades.
Coach101   ?
Matt DTS   (There are certain universal truths, and one is that you can't
	   always get blinding speed completely
AFL Marty  Let me offer an example...
Matt DTS   transparently.  ExpressLoad is one of those instances.  Sorry.)
AFA Gary J Q = Marty (Matt, Dave), Parik, Dwight
AFA Gary J Q + Coach  :)
AFL Marty  I'm thinking of something like Music Studio, which takes an
	   eternity
AFL Marty  to load now....
AFL Marty  The company which publishes it isn't exactly tops in product
	   support.  What
AFL Marty  can the end user do in this case (if anything)?
Matt DTS   The user is in the same place he is now, and was a while back
	   without APW when COMPACT came out.
Matt DTS   There are certain things which usually work but can't be
	   guaranteed, like COMPACTing or EXPRESSing
AFA Parik  SOL?  :)
AFL Marty  Between a rock and a hard place.
Matt DTS   programs you didn't write.  That's why they're developer tools we
	   strongly encourage developers
Matt DTS   to use.  Sorry.  <GA>
AFL Marty  done
AFA Gary J Dave, did you want to add something?
AFA Gary J (Dave Lyons)
Dave Lyons Coach, wasn't paying close attention a minute ago:  there would be
	   almost no point to actually having
Dave Lyons 1:1 interleave, since you almost get it anyway, *some* of the
	   time, but not all of the time.  Sorry
Dave Lyons to regress. :)
Dave Lyons (ga)
AFA Gary J Ok, Parik, GA with your question
Coach101   Hmmmmm....   If you read a whole track!   Partial tracks could
Coach101   still (maybe, some of the time) benefit from 1:1
AFA Parik  can fonts be placed anywhere now, instead of just the font
	   directory?  and how
AFA Gary J Q = Parik, Dwight, Coach
AFA Parik  is data fork editing going to be handed, a new toolset?  or will
	   the init file
AFA Parik  handle everything?  ga
Matt DTS   Fonts still go in the FONTS directory.  The Font Manager does not
	   support adding fonts from
Matt DTS   resources on 5.0 since the search paths and all were very
	   complicated and didn't make it in.
Matt DTS   As for "data fork editing", this I almost completely fail to
	   understand.
Matt DTS   <GA>
AFL Dyfet  Would you care to clearify that, Parik?
AFA Gary J Anything else, Parik?
AFA Parik  changing something inside the resources.. (eg, changing data w/o
	   program)
Matt DTS   No resource editor is provided with the System Software.  <GA>
AFA Parik  ga
AFA Gary J Ok Dwight, you're up.
DwightW1   why a 'sput' background noise  with each played note utilizing the
	   note...
AFA Gary J Q = Dwight, Coach
DwightW1   synthesizer?  (ga)
Matt DTS   <Dave's gonna take this one>
Dave Lyons I don't know anything about it.  Have you tried
Dave Lyons the program on another machine & gotten the same noise?
DwightW1   dave, the program is my own, utilizing only my IIgs
DwightW1   the sound is from BACH's prelude
Dave Lyons If you have a fan, see if removing it makes any difference; try it
	   on another person's machine &
DwightW1   i meant song
Dave Lyons see if the noise is still there.  I don't think there is anything
	   inherent about the note
Dave Lyons syntehsizer that makes you always get noise.
Dave Lyons (ga)
DwightW1   will try and thank you (ga)
AFA Gary J Coach, GA with your question
AFA Gary J Q = Coach
Coach101   Thanks...
Coach101   Do not mean to belabor a point...   But I have not completed my
Coach101   Developer package quite yet and was wondering if the summer
	   release
Coach101   meant through APDA with docs.  Or if the release will happen in
Coach101   summer and the docs (through APDA) for non-developers will follow
	   some
Coach101   time later.   GA
Matt DTS   Software and documentation will be available this summer.  <GA>
Coach101   Thanks   GA
AFA Gary J Any idea if this means early or late summer???  :)
DwightW1   ?
Matt DTS   It means summer.
Coach101   :)
AFA Gary J Figures  :)
AFA Gary J GA Dwight
Coach101   Summer.... In which hemisphere?
AFA Gary J Q = Dwight
DwightW1   a side question......
DwightW1   have you noticed how few people are here tonight......
AFA Parik  hangovers :)
DwightW1   is this tied to the fact that the development forum was
	   completely
Coach101   ?
DwightW1   left out of the applelink schedule for this entire month.   why
DwightW1   /wjy?
AFA Gary J It may have had something to do with the fact that we had no
	   banner tonight as
AFA Gary J well.
AFL Scott  (Good question)
AFL Dyfet  Yes, that is.
AFL Dyfet  Especially since May was on file from Jim...
AFA Gary J :)
AFL Dyfet  The first schedule I had to submit was for July, in fact :)
AFA Gary J Jim's not around this evening to answer that one...
AFL Scott  (May was the first month we were supposed use the new form... Jims
	   was in old
AFL Scott  format, I think)
DwightW1   ....i see  (ga)
AFA Gary J Q = Coach
AFA Gary J GA, Coach
Coach101   Matt,
Coach101   Some time back you floated a trial balloon about ALPE becoming
	   the
Coach101   place for CDs to get support (as opposed to ALAE).  Anything come
	   of
Coach101   the discussion?  GA
AFA Gary J Good question, Coach. 
AFL Cheryl hi all...BRB...blew myself up here :(
Matt DTS   If you mean has an announcment been made, no.  But we're still
	   very interested in opinions through...
Matt DTS   ...all the usual channels so we can keep them on paper until the
	   Apple XXVIII is outdated.  <GA>
AFL Dyfet  Well, my opinion is do it :)
AFL Marty  ?
AFA Gary J Anything else, Coach?
Coach101   What I meant (and you answered) is that the idea is alive and the
	   issue
Coach101   not yet resolved...  Thanks....
Coach101   GA
AFA Gary J Q = Marty
AFL Vince  I heard lots of talk about this at afest with rilla(?) and Q
	   folks... :)  looks good...real good..
AFA Gary J I'd sure like to see it as well.
AFA Gary J GA, Marty
AFL Marty  Pardon my tone....
AFL Marty  but how many opinions does DTS need?
AFA Gary J :)
AFA Parik  32768...
AFL Marty  Everyone I've heard speak about this has been in favor of the
	   idea...
AFA Parik  then the high bit is turned on.
AFL Marty  so what's taking so blasted long.
Coach101   Overflow.....  32767....   Or, for Matt,  stop at 10
AFL Marty  Come on... this is a serious question.
AFA Gary J Ask people on GEnie, they may not agree :)
Coach101   :)
AFA Gary J (But so what???)
AFL Marty  I have.... and they agree for the most part.
Matt DTS   The opinions have been taken under advisement, Marty.  That's all
	   I can say.  <GA>
AFL Marty  My principal talks that way.
AFL Marty  done
AFA Gary J Q = <empty>
AFA Gary J Dave asked earlier, but how many people here DID attend
	   AppleFest?
AFA Parik  not me
AFL Cheryl I did!!!
AFL Dyfet  I wasn't :(
Coach101   Not me
AFL Cheryl (re-hi, all :)
AFA Parik  who's gonna attend DeveloperWorld?
DwightW1   couldn't make it
AFA Gary J I wasn't
AFA Parik  (not me again :)
AFL Vince  I did
AFL Scott  Was there, too..
DwightW1   would love to go but i know i will miss it also
AFL Scott  NOT at Developerworld... or whatever... $$$
AFA Parik  who's gonna be at KansasWorld then?  :)
AFL Marty  <--- KansasFest
AFA Parik  (not me, once more...:(  )  but at SF Fest, i'll be.
AFL Vince  Would have liked to have gone to Spring Dev Conference, but I cant
	   afford to be an Apple developer.:)
AFA Gary J Dorthy and Toto too.
AFL Marty  <-- on a panel :)
AFA Parik  control?
AFL Marty  I have no control :)
DwightW1   as an offshoot to Vince's response, it seems easier to become an
	   Apple 
AFL Marty  Discussion of fonts and stuff like that.
DwightW1   developer now!
AFL Marty  Mark!
AFA Parik  ohhh!  with mark I bet!  (speak of the devil :)
AFA Parik  Only if you got extra $$ lying around Dwight (I don't)
AFC Mark   Uh Oh...  B-)
AFA Gary J Right, Dwight.  Money talks.
AFL Vince  If you've got a spare 6 bills or so it is...
AFL Cheryl what is a KansasFest?????
DwightW1   ha ha ha
Dave Lyons I'll be at KansasFest.
AFL Vince  A2 Central's developer conference
Matt DTS   In the lack of anything except generic criticism of the
	   departments where I work, I'll be leaving.
AFA Gary J KansasFest = A2 Central's conference
AFL Marty  It's a rest home for folks who over-punctuate their questions :)
Matt DTS   See y'all next week.
AFA Parik  bye matt.  :)
Coach101   Good evening Matt,,,,
Coach101   Have a nice nite Matt!
AFL Dyfet  Night Matt.
AFA Gary J Goodnight, Matt.  Thanks for coming.
AFL Marty  Party hearty Matt!
AFC Mark   night, Matt
AFA Parik  Question:  Will technotes be more and more coming online a bit
	   faster?  I dunno
AFA Parik  if the march technotes are online yet, they're good.  Not sure
	   when my CD 
AFA Parik  expires, but when it doesn't i'd like to have another source of TN
	   besides APDA
AFA Gary J March's technotes aren't online yet.  Jim L has said they should
	   be on in a 
AFA Gary J week or so.
AFA Gary J (Too much to prepare for in AppleFest and Developer's
	   conference)