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APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
April 11, 1989 10:00 p.m. Eastern time
Topic: Assembly Language
Forum Leader: Dave Sugar (AFL Dyfet)
AFL Dyfet Okay, good evening and welcome to the tuesday night Apple
Development forum chat. Tonight's topic will be assembly language
programming. We will be using PROTOCOL here tonight. This means that if you wish to ask a question, you must enter a '?' on a line
by itself. If you wish to comment on the current question being
asked, you must enter a '!' on a line by itself. We will keep track
of who has questions and comments pending and call upon you in the
order your question and/or comment was noticed. We are now open to
questions, so rush to it, people!
AFL TracyP ?
AFL Dyfet GA Tracy
AFL TracyP Question from a rookie programmer....how best to start?
AFL TracyP Then I'll let thepros take over...:)
AFL Dyfet Good question. Anyone wish to comment on this one?
AFL TracyP What
CecilFret !
AFL Dyfet Go ahead Cecil.
Shoggoth2 !
AFL TracyP What's the best source material forlearning?
CecilFret First get yourself a good assembler. SOme of this depends on what
books you
CecilFret choose to buy. For example, Compute! has published a book by
Roger Wagner
David C137 What assembler do you reccomend?
AFL Dyfet Q=Tracy (Cecil, Shoggoth)
CecilFret entitled Apple IIgs Machine Langauge for Beginners. It uses
Merlin 16 as
DwayneW ?
CecilFret sold by Roger Wagner. After that, just wade in
CecilFret ga
AFL Dyfet Okay, your up now, Shaggoth, GA.
CecilFret !
Shoggoth2 I was going to recommend Roger Wagner's book too. I think it's
excellent.
Shoggoth2 He also has one for Apple IIe/c
Coach101 !
Shoggoth2 As for assemblers...I have to get this in...I like Lisa816...it's
underrated.
Windrider5 ?
AFL Dyfet Okay, I believe DaveC was next...GA Dave...
David C137 What assembler do you reccomend
David C137 and is there any protocol being observed
AFL Dyfet I believe it's Cecil's turn now...GA Cecil.
CecilFret For assemblers, if you have a pre-IIgs, Merlin by Glen Bredon and
sold by
CecilFret Roger Wanger Publishing is good. For the IIgs, I can pick no
particular one
CecilFret of choice. I use APW, ORCA/M and Merlin in reviewing articeles
for
CecilFret Call -A.P.P.L.E.
CecilFret ga
AFL Dyfet GA Coach.
AFA Gary J Q = Tracy (Cecil, Coach), Dwayne, Windryder
Coach101 Besides a good book, and an assembler, read as much assembler
code
Coach101 as you can get your hands on. There is almost no substitute for
Shoggoth2 !
Coach101 understnading how other people have done things. You will pick
up
Coach101 some tricks and improve your coding speed and proficiency. GA
AFL Dyfet I would recommend Merlin and the programming book supplied by
Roger Wagner
AFL Dyfet myself. GA Shaggoth...
Shoggoth2 I've found it helpful to examine the code output by compilers in
learning. GA
DennisDoms !
AFL Dyfet GA Dennis.
DennisDoms I was going to say that the Merlin 16+ package includes Merlin Pro
(for...
Nuzz !
AFA Gary J Q = Tracy (Dennis, Shoggoth), Dwayne, Windryder
DennisDoms 128K IIe/IIc), Merlin 816 (for IIe/c with 65802, or IIgs), and
Merlin 16+..
DennisDoms for the IIgs, which covers a lot of bases. I had switched to
ORCA/APW, ...
DennisDoms but as a straight assembler I'm finding a lot to like in Merlin.
Lisa 816...
DennisDoms may be good, but it may also be in transition (the version I have
does not...
David C137 ?
AFA Gary J Q = Tracy (Dennis, Shoggoth, Nuzz), Dwayne, Windryder, David C
DennisDoms look complete.). Also, if you're looking at books for the IIgs, I
like the...
DennisDoms Lichty/Eyes "Programming the IIgs in Assembly Language" book.
DennisDoms GA
AFL Dyfet Incidently I plan to schedule in a 'novice' conf. sometime in the
next few
DennisDoms !
AFL Dyfet months. I would like to wrap this question up with the comments
now pending
AFL Dyfet from Nuzz and Dennis and move on to the other questions out there.
GA Nuzz.
Nuzz I've always found that to learn, start with a basic task. Write a
SMALL ---
Nuzz and don't stop till its done...GA
AFL Dyfet Okay, Dennis, GA.
DennisDoms Almost forgot...an advantage of Merlin is the disassembler
(Sourceror) ...
DennisDoms which can give you some training in taking apart existing code.
GA
AFL TracyP Thanks fellows........
AFL Dyfet Okay, thank you Dennis. Our next question is from Dwayne. GA
Dwayne.
AFA Gary J Q = Dwayne, Windryder, David C
DwayneW I would like to know of a good source to learn some basic math
algorithms...
JimMensch !
DwayneW in assembler. I've been writing some code for some time, but
floating point
Solo GS I need help with ImageWriter II printing problems....
DwayneW and normal mult, div functions give me trouble.
Shoggoth2 !
AFL Dyfet Okay, Jim.
AFL Dyfet GA
JimMensch Well, two books that I know of are Programming the 65816 by eyes
and Lichty (excelent integer
JimMensch multiply and divide routines (but they could be a little
faster...
Solo GS geezzzzzzzzz
AFA Gary J Q = Dwayne (Jim M, Shoggoth), Windryder, David C
JimMensch and for floating point, Mike fischers 65816 assembly language
programming ( the examples are not
JimMensch very fast but the explanations of floating point are quite
good...)
JimMensch GA
AFL Dyfet Okay, thank you Jim. I believe Shoggoth is next. GA Shoggoth.
Shoggoth2 Just take the easy way out and use SANE. mult & div are a pain on
65xxx chips
Shoggoth2 GA
DwayneW !
AFL Dyfet Okay, are there any more comments?
AFL Dyfet Okay, GA Dwayne...
AFA Parik !
DwayneW I would use SANE, but the project I'm working on is for a //e,
although I am
DwayneW writing the code on a //gs. :)
DennisDoms !
Shoggoth2 !
AFA Gary J Q = Dwayne (Parik, Dennis, Shoggoth), Windryder, David C
AFL Dyfet Okay, GA Parik.
AFA Parik 6502 Software Design by LEO J. SCANLON contains a lot of examples.
GA
AFL Dyfet Okay, Dennis, GA.
DennisDoms Bob Sander-Cederloff printed some routines in Apple Assembly
Lines; you may...
DennisDoms be able to reach him via Applied Engineering. ?: Does Apple still
license...
DennisDoms the 8-bit version of SANE? That may be an option.
AFL Dyfet I believe your up now, Shoggoth, GA.
Shoggoth2 As Dennis said, there was a 6502 SANE. I've got it. Don't know
if it's...
Shoggoth2 still avail. GA
Matt DTS !
AFL Dyfet I'd have to find one of my Apple sheets to check...maybe Matt :)
knows...
AFA Gary J Q = Dwayne (Matt), Windryder, David C
AFL Dyfet GA Matt
Matt DTS It's still available from Software Licensing, who will send you
information for the simple act of...
Matt DTS ...calling (408) 974-4667. GA.
AFL Dyfet Okay, are there any more comments?
AFL Dyfet Our next question was from Windryder. GA Windryder...
Windrider5 Any suggestions about mixing Assembly and C e.g. when to use each
language in
Windrider5 a program
Coach101 !
CecilFret !
AFL Dyfet GA Coach.
Coach101 I would suggest using C as much as is possible in the early stages
of the program development; using assembly only where it is
absolutely
Coach101 required (i.e., manipulating the B register is a good example).
Coach101 Once the program is up and functional, then convert speed
bottlenecks
Coach101 and/or size bottle necks into assembly (using the C source as
the
Coach101 algorithm to implement). Generally speaking, you will code
faster
Coach101 and with less bugs in a higher level language... ga
Shoggoth2 ?
AFL Dyfet Okay, I believe you are up now, Cecil, GA.
CecilFret Coach pretty much covered what I wanted to say. I just want to
add that the
CecilFret May issue fo Call -A.P.P.L.E. has an article on how to interface C
with
CecilFret Assembly language.
CecilFret ga
DennisDoms !
AFL Dyfet GA Dennis.
DennisDoms This is theoretical at present, but the ORCA Desktop Debugger has
a ...
DennisDoms "profiler" utility that will help show where the program is
spending it's...
AFA Gary J Q = Windrider (Dennis), David C, Shoggoth
DennisDoms time. If ORCA/C utilyzes this (when released :), this would be a
useful...
DennisDoms tool in determining where to apply assembly (or better
algorithms). GA
Brin Londo Have used Profiler
AFL Dyfet I believe our next question is from David C. GA David.
David C137 I have heard that Orca/M is ponderous and difficult to use. Is
this true?..
DwayneW !
AFL Dyfet GA Dwayne.
David C137 And any info on the novice conference would be appreciated. GA
DwayneW I'm little better than a novice, but I haven't had much trouble
learning to
CecilFret !
DwayneW use ORCA/M. My only gripe is having to quit to use applesoft,
then rerun
DwayneW ORCA/M to change some more code in my programs. GA
AFL Dyfet GA Cecil.
AFA Gary J Q = David C (Cecil), Shoggoth
CecilFret I think a lot of packages like ORCA/M are ponderous at first.
CecilFret Even for someone like myself who has been in the business for
years.
CecilFret You are right, exiting out to Applesoft is a pain then having to
come back
CecilFret in. Unfortunaltely, this is a "problem" with the rest like APW.
CecilFret ga
Coach101 !
AFL Dyfet In regards to the 'novice' conf., I plan to hold the first one
sometime in late
AFL Dyfet may. GA Coach.
AFA Gary J Q = David C (Coach), Shoggoth
Coach101 The exiting/re-entering should not be that bad. With APW and I
David C137 !
Coach101 probably with ORCA you can define an alias that will make it
Doc Arcane ?
Coach101 possible to use a simple command to get to AppleSoft. Getting
Coach101 back is as simple as stroking BYE. If you have enought memory
Coach101 your times may be even quicker (less disk activity?). ga
AFL Dyfet Okay, thank you coach. GA David C.
David C137 I would suggest using programming excercises for beginners like
me. GA
Brin Londo !
AFL Dyfet Okay, Brin, GA.
AFA Gary J Q = David C (Brin), Shoggoth, Doc Arcane
Brin Londo Would it be possible to have a "Switcher" for Applesoft. We're
only taking
Brin Londo about swapping 64k. GA
AFL Dyfet Any comments?
Dave Lyons !
AFL Dyfet I knew you would, Dave :). GA Dave...
Dave Lyons SoftSwitch already works for Applesoft...am I missing the
question?
Brin Londo !
Dave Lyons If the ? is switching out 16-bit application, there are lots of
problems. ga
AFL Dyfet GA Brin.
Brin Londo Interrupt, save state, swap banks, cold start ProDOS8? GA
AFL Dyfet I believe our next question is from Shoggoth. GA shoggoth.
Shoggoth2 For Matt: You probably can't comment, but I'm waiting desperately
for GS/OS...
AFA Parik ?
Shoggoth2 resource forks. They'll make programming life *much* easier. Any
dates? ga
Matt DTS !
Coach101 Probably the 31st of a month :)
AFL Dyfet GA Matt.
AFA Parik heheh Coach
Matt DTS You already have resource forks! Now if you want a resource
MANAGER, to split it into discrete...
AFA Gary J Q = Shoggoth (Matt), Doc Arcane, Parik
Matt DTS ...chunks and toolbox support, etc., *that* I can't comment on,
other than to say it is coming.
Shoggoth2 !
Coach101 !
Matt DTS GA.
AFL Dyfet Go ahead Shoggoth.
Shoggoth2 Yes, resource manager is what I meant. ga
AFL Dyfet GA Coach.
Coach101 Matt, I hate to be picky (nah, its my nature) but we have
Matt DTS (Just trying to throw in a little levity before lowering the "no
comment" boom. GA)
Coach101 been told by Apple to _NOT_ user resource forks yet. Ergo,
Coach101 we DO NOT have them yet!
Dave Lyons !
Shoggoth2 !
Coach101 :)
AFL Dyfet Okay, Dave...GA
AFA Gary J Q = Shoggoth (Dave), Doc Arcane, Parik
Dave Lyons You can wirte your Copy program to COPY the resource forks...you
just can't yet
DaviesDoug !
DaviesDoug I already did
Dave Lyons know their structure.
AFL Dyfet GA Shoggoth
Shoggoth2 If Apple doesn't define them soon, programmers will take the
matter into their.
Shoggoth2 own hands. I believe that's what TML is doing for v2.0 Pascal and
Basic. GA
AFL Dyfet That would be a mistake. As Matt said, Apple is working on
resource support
Matt DTS !
JimMensch !
AFL Dyfet and I see Matt wants to comment here...GA matt...
Matt DTS (Let Mensch go first - I already had a turn)
AFL Dyfet Okay, Mensch...GA
JimMensch On the matter of resource forks....
JimMensch Well, here are some facts...
Doc Arcane ?
JimMensch If you define your own resource data types, be sure to look at
inside mac and leave the proper number
JimMensch of header bytes at the beginning for Apple standard header
JimMensch (no matter what happens, you can be sure at some level those will
get trashed)
JimMensch If you define your own resource definition, don't be supprised if
one day they get screwed up..
JimMensch I wish I could give you a day....
JimMensch And
Shoggoth2 !
JimMensch While the resource fork of a file does indeed currently exist in
THEORY
JimMensch none of the current software (finder et al) will acknowledge their
presence and if they have to
JimMensch deal with them the resource fork may get trashed.
AFL Dyfet (Your question is next, Doc Arcane...) GA Shoggoth.
Shoggoth2 I've consigned myself to wait for Apple...but I can't speak for
others. :) GA
JimMensch So, in short.... you really do not have resource forks right now.
Maybe they should be left
JimMensch unused
JimMensch GA
BillP !
BillP cancel !
AFL Dyfet I don't recall Doug, Gary...but if he has a comment...GA
Doug...:)
DaviesDoug .sorry done. in another room for a sec
AFL Dyfet Okay, our next question is from Doc Arcane.
AFL Dyfet GA Doc.
Doc Arcane Please bear with me, I've been out of the assembly scene for some
time.....
Doc Arcane First, is there a devlopment system for the GS on the MAC? I
heard...
Doc Arcane there was one, and second, will there be something similar to
Multi-finder...
AFA Parik <recant ?>
Doc Arcane for the GS, or is that what forks are? I'm unclear on what forks
are. GA
AFA Gary J Q = Doc Arcane, Parik
AFL Dyfet Yes, there is a Mac version of the APW environment available for
cross-
Shoggoth2 !
AFL Dyfet development. GA Shoggoth.
Shoggoth2 Randy Hyde is working on Multi-Anix, a multi-tasking GS/OS
shell...
Shoggoth2 don't hold your breath, though. GA
AFL Dyfet He's not the only one working on that :) (don't hold your breath
from here
Brin Londo <too late, already blue>
AFL Dyfet either though :)...I believe Cecil had some information he wanted
to give
AFL Dyfet us at this point in regards to Call Apple. You have the floor,
Cecil, GA.
AFL Marty <breathe in.... breathe out>
CecilFret As some of you may know, I am Technical Editor for Call
-A.P.P.L.E. Magazine.
CecilFret We are under some fire from the pre-IIgs owners for not having
many articles
Brin Londo ][
CecilFret which do not involve the IIgs. The fact is, we don't have any
articles from
CecilFret authors in the queue. So if any of you think you have a good
program and
CecilFret wouldlike to take a crack at getting it published, send it to
us.
CecilFret Thanks Gary.
CecilFret ga
Brin Londo !
AFL Dyfet GA Brin.
Brin Londo Fact is, I started my Call-Apple sub. after you started getting
IIGS...
Brin Londo was getting pretty "waterered" down with "begining" ProDos
article. GA
AFL Dyfet I am also planning a conf. sometime in the future specifically for
8 bit
AFA Gary J Yes, it is hard to please ALL of the people ALL of the time! :(
AFL Dyfet programming for those that have felt left out...
AFL Dyfet Are there any more comments or questions at this point?
DaviesDoug ya, where did matt go? :)
Brin Londo !
AFL Dyfet GA Brin.
Brin Londo I came in late. So forgive if covered. Display card need GS/OS
tools? to ...
Brin Londo fully utilize?
Brin Londo and I mean FULLY. ga
AFL Dyfet There is a toolset provided for the GS to use the card...I suppose
you can
AFL Dyfet directly twiddle the port addresses if you want :)
Brin Londo !
AFL Dyfet GA Brin.
Dave Lyons !
Brin Londo Hear rumur it will drive "psuedo" super-hires on //e (true?) gao
AFL Dyfet GA Dave.
Dave Lyons I don't even know what all the dang card CAN do, much less whether
the toolset
Dave Lyons lets you do it all! I have also heard that the card will let a
IIe have
Brin Londo !
Dave Lyons super-hires, and that it'll let a GS have two separate super-hires
screens.
Dave Lyons I don't know if
AFL Dyfet I saw some mention of interlace support for 400 lines, but no info
on how to
Dave Lyons QuickDraw can be easily modified to allow Mac II-like tricks w/
two monitors
Dave Lyons in the same coordinate system (in different places). done
AFL Dyfet get there. It also can have it's video buffer mapped in different
places
AFL Dyfet in memory (perhaps page flipping can be done :)...but I'm not too
up to date
AFL Dyfet on it either. GA Brin.
Brin Londo Saw card at MACUL (Detroit) impressive device!!
AFL Dyfet Any further comments?
Brin Londo !
AFL Dyfet GA Brin.
AFA Gary J <I'd sure like to see it.)
Brin Londo Seems to be thinning out. How about a //c question?
AFL Dyfet A //c question? Sure...feel free to ask away...
Brin Londo LDA $C019 on //e (changes +/-) on IIGS (changes +/-) on //c
(nothing)...
DwightW1 got to go...excellent conference tonight
Brin Londo is the darn INT firmware grabing and clearing?
AFL Dyfet I believe that's the VBL detect softswitch. On the //c you cannot
read the
AFA Gary J Goodnight, Dwight.
AFL Dyfet this switch, but instead are reading whether VBL interrupts have
been enabled.
AFL Dyfet A slight difference there between the //c and the other machines
:)
Brin Londo Time to update a ][ tech note. #19 I think. Thanks
AFL Dyfet I've wondered about that peculiarity myself. I also believe the
IIgs VBL works
AFL Dyfet oposite of the //e, that is, it's negative during VBL where the
//e is
AFL Dyfet positive...:)
Brin Londo That's right but the //c unlike the //e,IIGS,Laser 128,Franklin,
etc. ...
Brin Londo doesn't let you just look at the VBL going by. GA
AFL Dyfet Correct. You can only detect VBL on the //c by an interrupt
handler.