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APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
February 7, 1989 10:00 p.m. Eastern time
Topic: Pascal and C
Forum Leader: James Luther (AFL Jim)
AFL Jim Welcome to the Apple II Development Forum. Tonight's topic is
Pascal & C.
AFL Jim Both languages are available in some form on both the 8 bit Apples
and the IIGS
AFL Jim so we'll discuss any system you want.
AFA Gary J <silence>.....
AFL Jim Any questions to start the evening off?
Matt DTS <it was until you ruined it, gary>
AFA Gary J :)
AFL Jim (yes, no, maybe?)
AFL Marty How about Instant Pascal?
JSchober (it's a LULLLL, actually...)
AFL Jim How about it? :)
Windrider5 why is there so little support for c for the iigs
JSchober (hi ... err... Floyd. Hmmm...)
AFL Marty Is it still published? Is it still copy protected? If so, why?
AFL Floyd <sneaking in>
Matt DTS WR5: What do you mean by "so little support"?
AFA Gary J Q = Marty, Windrider
Matt DTS <uh-oh...breach of protocol. Sorry>
AFL Marty (Let Windrider go ahead of me)
Coach101 !
AFA Gary J Q = Windrider, Marty :)
BillP !
AFL Jim GA Windrider - we'll give as much support to C as you want.
Windrider5 take the magazine CALLA.P.P.L.E. there are never any C related
article
Matt DTS That's because none of you talented people ever bless Cecil & Co.
with one.
AFL Jim There have been a couple of C articles, but nothing in the last 6
months or so.
Matt DTS Cecil and Kathryn have asked several times for C authors, but
haven't gotten...
Matt DTS ...very far yet, apparently.
Matt DTS (I mean authors of C articles, not Mr. K and Mr. R.)
AFL Jim The IIGS technotes that aren't in assembler are in C - I'd like to
see a few
AFL Jim in Pascal.
AFA Gary J Q = Windrider (Coach, Bill), Marty
Matt DTS Well, you're in a position to do something about that, aren't you?
:-)
JSchober (hi Cecil! We were just talking about you... ;)
CecilFret Uh, oh. What did I do now?
AFL Jim If you're looking for sample C code, there's a lot of that, too.
JSchober :)
AFL Jim It's what you haven't done, Cecil :)
AFA Gary J :)
Windrider5 where do you find this sample C code
CecilFret What haven't I done now Jim
JSchober (we're probably ruining his otherwise great day... ;)
CecilFret Ok guys, my spies tell me no articles on APW C, right?
AFL Jim Windrider is looking for some C articles in Call-APPLE.
JSchober hehehe... he's a psychic...
AFA Gary J Q = Windrider (Coach, Bill), Marty
CecilFret Someone say right!
Matt DTS Right!
CecilFret GOt two in the mill right now. One on an interface between C and
Assembly.
AFL Jim Check the development forum libraries - the source code category
lists the
Matt DTS (now that Cecil's here, I'm out of this one. GA.)
CecilFret Second one is on C pointers.
AFL Jim language the sample code files are in.
ScottG25 ?
CecilFret Any C coders out there wishing to make a buck? Our problem is we
lack authors
CecilFret fluent in the subject. I certainly am not.
TKV Good evening... I'm just on with a Pascal GS 640 grafix
question...
AFA Gary J Q = Windrider (Coach, Bill), Marty, Scott
AFL Jim Coach, GA
CecilFret Matt, I can't stay long. Got a lot of stuff to do yet tonight.
AFL Jim Hold on TKV, we'll add you to the queue of people waiting to
ask.
TKV thanks
Coach101 Another twist to the question is what level of support Apple is
Coach101 giving, or going to give to C? The language is slow, and the
AFA Gary J Q = Windrider (Coach, Bill), Marty, Scott, TKV
Coach101 .h files could proably be sped up considerably . My buring
question
Coach101 is whether apple is going to continue with C, or to abandon it
CecilFret Ok guys, we got above zero today for the first time in a week!
Coach101 for all practical purposes. The latest issue of A+ contains
JSchober [ ()()() Cecil... ;) ]
Coach101 an ad from Apple for people in their Cupertino digs and makes
mention of
Coach101 the need for Pascal but not C. Is Apple going to drop C? GA
AFL Jim C is still a current product at Apple.
Matt DTS !
AFL Jim I haven't seen the ad so I can't comment on it.
Coach101 So is DOS 3.3 ?
CecilFret !
AFA Gary J Q = Windrider (Coach, Bill), Marty, Scott, TKV
AFL Jim GA Mat
AFL Jim t
AFL Jim :)
Matt DTS I'll tell you this much: *I* haven't seen any signs it's going
away. GA.
AFL Jim The same goes here, but Matt blocks my view most of the time.
AFL Jim GA Bill
BillP While I think Apple has been on the ball to release APW C and
MPW/IIGS C and lots of good examples...
Coach101 Ok. I was pleased with Tim's execllent (from a support)
viewpoint
Matt DTS Well, if you'd GET OUT OF MY OFFICE EVERY NOW AND THEN...!
<grin>
BillP I'm surprised there aren't more C compilers for the IIGS.
Coach101 article in ApDaLog.... I prefer C since I must use multiple
Coach101 machines and "C" is fast becoming a common language across all
DaviesDoug Is this open forum tonight?!
BillP I do agree with Coach, Apple's C is a little slow...
Coach101 levels of machines (little to gargantuan). Thanks.... GA
AFA Gary J Q = Windrider (Bill), Marty, Scott, TKV
BillP I hope it someone else comes out with one, Apple can compete
THE GIBBER (a bit?)
AFL Jim Pascal and C, Doug.
Matt DTS (No, Doug, there are just five of us on the floor. <grin> I'm
out - GA)
CecilFret !
BillP ga
AFA Gary J Q = Windrider (Cecil), Marty, Scott, TKV
AFL Jim The Byte Works is still predicting a Spring release of their C, so
that won't
AFL Jim take long, Bill.
AFL Jim Cecil, GA
AFL Floyd !
BillP isn't theirs, like Small C?
AFA Gary J Q + (Floyd)
CecilFret Ok, I am not a C expert by any stretch of the imagination.
CecilFret I would be if I could get pointers straightened out. Anyway, on
the speed
AFL Jim No, ORCA/C is going to be an ANSI-C compiler.
CecilFret issue. A friend of mine taylors his .h files to include only what
he uses.
CecilFret As a result, his times are much faster. GET my drift?
CecilFret ga
AFA Gary J Q = Windrider (Floyd), Marty, Scott, TKV
AFL Jim Floyd, GA with your comment
AFL Jim (Cecil, GET is in BASIC and PASCAL :)
AFL Floyd I'm anxiously awaiting ORCA C myself. I watch an episode of Star
Trek while my APW C program
BillP ::hysterical::
AFL Floyd is compiling. :( I too have used selected parts of the .h files
to increase compile times. Mike
Windrider5 will the transwarp GS speed up the APWC compile times
AFL Floyd mentioned that he might add something like pre-compiled headers
like LightSpeed C uses. ga
AFA Gary J Q = Windrider, Marty, Scott, TKV
AFL Jim Maty and Scott, can I move TKV up in the queue?
AFL Marty Sure
AFL Jim Marty
AFA Gary J Q = TKV, Marty, Scott
AFL Jim Windrider, WHEN the Transwarp GS is out, it should speed up
everything.
DaviesDoug ?
AFL Jim TKV, go ahead with your question.
AFA Gary J Q = TKV, Marty, Scott, Doug
TKV Thanks, sorry for lack of protocol : my first conf.. My question
is
Matt DTS (except the disk-based parts of the compile...GA)
TKV I've got 640 colors 16 of then but can't
TKV come up with 16 shades of grey? help?
AFL Jim !
Matt DTS !
DaviesDoug !
CecilFret Gotta go people, good night
JSchober Night, Cecil.
AFL Jim TKV, you need to create a color table where the lowest color is
$000, then $111
THE GIBBER Night, Cecil :)
AFA Gary J Q = TKV (Jim, Matt, Doug), Marty, Scott, Doug
DaviesDoug (640 mode JIM)
AFL Jim then $222, etc all the way to $FFF which will be the brightest.
AFL Jim ooops... I thought he said colors...
TKV but what pen masks will yeild grey?
AFL Jim Wchih is it, TKV?
AFL Jim (that's which for those of you who can't read gibberish)
TKV I've got a palette & masks which give colors (16) but can't seem
TKV to get the penPatts for greys... :)
TKV this is in 640 mode
AFL Jim Matt, GA while I find where my kid has carried my books to...
Matt DTS (gary - switch Doug and me in the comment queue - GA doug)
ScottG25 !
AFL Marty (you mean you have your manuals at home, Jim? :)
Matt DTS Oh, Doug's gone. GA, Scott?
RHannon Hello John!
AFA Gary J Doug bit the bucket.
AFA Parik (oh oh, Matt's running the Queue! panick! ;)
ScottG25 Patterns for grays are just like the colors for grays except you
use
AFL Jim back
AFA Gary J Q = TVK (Scott, Matt, Doug), Marty, Scott, Doug
ScottG25 4 nibbles - in things like SpecialRect... ie $0000, $1111, up to
$FFFF. GA
TKV I'll give it a go... thanks Scott :)
Matt DTS Tracy...
Matt DTS ...that's one way to do it, but Eric Soldan of AIIDTS has another
which...
TKV hi Matt...
Matt DTS ...not only can I not recall, but seems to give better results on
the...
Matt DTS ...LaserWriter. Link your question (AppleLink Apple Edition) to
AIIDTS...
Matt DTS ...and we'll see if we can get him to reveal the secret. (I'll
also see if...
Matt DTS ...I can get a tech note from him out of it.)
Matt DTS GA
MarkMPC :)
AFL Jim Doug, GA
Matt DTS Oh, quit grinning. <smiling back>
TKV will do.. thnks Matt :)
AFA Gary J Q = TVK (Doug), Marty, Scott, Doug
ScottG25 !
TKV I'm done... thanks folks
DaviesDoug Done
AFL Jim Scott, another comment?
AFA Gary J Q + (Scott)
AFL Jim GA
ScottG25 Matt, does Erics way have anything to do with Halftoning?
AFL Jim (That's for you Matt - GA)
Matt DTS You got me. I think it's just a special palette; more I do not
know. Sorry.
Matt DTS GA.
ScottG25 Thanks!
ScottG25 GA
AFL Jim Sounds like enought interest for a technote.
Matt DTS If you have Medley and a LaserWriter, you can check out the
results for yoursel
AFL Jim OK, Marty GA
MarkMPC I've seen them.... :)
Matt DTS f, since he used it there (pick gray scales, though). GA (really,
this time)
AFL Marty -?
AFA Gary J Q = Scott, Doug
AFL Jim Scott GA
AFL Jim (with your question this time)
ScottG25 Using APW C and the standard C include files (no shell calls, or
GS/OS calls in
ScottG25 the source) what is the easiest way to handle wildcards when
executing a 'cat'
ScottG25 like Unix command?
Matt DTS What does 'cat' in Unix do, for starters?
JSchober Type a file...
ScottG25 cat is like type in the APW shell...
AFL Jim It concatenates files together into one file to the output file.
AFL Jim If the output file is the character output device, it "types"
them.
Dave Lyons (Meaning it just sends files to standard-out one after another.)
ShrinkIt (yeah, if it's redirected.. :)
Matt DTS So where would you take wildcards - in the filename?
AFL Jim or to a file, Dave
Dave Lyons !
ScottG25 In argv...
AFL Jim GA Dave
AFA Gary J Q = Scott (Dave), Doug
Dave Lyons Standard-out can _be_ a file, Jim. Ha. :) Scott, if you really
want to
Dave Lyons avoid shell calls, it seems you'll have to open up a directory and
call
AFL Jim :P
Dave Lyons GET_DIR_ENTRY repeatedly & write code to test the names against
the wildcard
Dave Lyons specified. Not a trivial task: you'd probably be better off
using the
Dave Lyons INIT_WILDCARD and NEXT_WILDCARD (sumthin like that) shell calls.
ga
ScottG25 I agree, generally, Dave, but portability is an issue...The way
I'm thinking of
AFA Gary J Q = Scott, Doug
ScottG25 doing it involves something like an ls call and then searching for
the closest
ScottG25 matches. It's not too easy, tho.
Dave Lyons Well, gee...the _portable_ way is for the shell to do all the
wildcard
Dave Lyons expansion. "ls" isn't even an APW command unless you alias it.
(Does the
Dave Lyons SHELL shell command expand aliases?)
ScottG25 I never said it was going to run under APW.... I did say that it
had to avoid
AFA Gary J Q = Scott (Dave), Doug
ScottG25 shell calls, tho. If you try to pipe a wildcard type into a
character output
DaviesDoug !
ScottG25 routine that searches for the end of file under Apw, EOF seems to
be rather
AFA Gary J Q = Scott (Dave, Doug), Doug
ScottG25 quickly ignored.
ScottG25 So I'm staying AWAY from APW in this little ditty.
DaviesDoug The GSOS calls sound like the way to go to me........
DaviesDoug all this on an itty bitty apple.....try a UNIX machine
Coach101 !
AFA Gary J Q = Scott (Doug, Coach), Doug
AFL Jim Dave, Doug - are you done?
DaviesDoug .done.
ScottG25 Funny thing coach... the exact routine I am talking about works
under Unix.
AFL Jim GA Coach
ScottG25 No not coach.. I meant doug... sorry..
Coach101 Scott, are you having problems recognizing the EOF when reading
Coach101 from <standard input> ?
ScottG25 Yep!
Coach101 Are you useing GsOs/ProDos16 reads?
ScottG25 What ever <stdio.h> does, I'm doing...
ScottG25 I haven't broken it out or used NiftyList on it, tho.
Coach101 Dont know there, but with a GsOs read a transfer count
Coach101 of 0 (zero) with the first byte of the input buffer (the byte
that
AFA Gary J Q = Scott (Coach), Doug
Coach101 was not transferred!) set to zero (0) means EOF. GA
ScottG25 Ah... ok....I'll look for that then... Thanks!
ScottG25 Done..
AFL Jim Doug, your up on the question queue. GA
DaviesDoug Has anyone had any luck with Readln's or Writeln's in a CDA in
either ORCA....
AFL Jim (you're)
DaviesDoug or TML pascal!
AFL Jim They work in ORCA.
DaviesDoug Not on mine
DaviesDoug have version 1.2, the most recent!
AFL Jim Have you started the texttools?
DaviesDoug No, should I? ORCA doesn't put that in my code?
AFA Gary J Q = Doug
AFL Jim and initialized them as Pascal devices?
DaviesDoug Great, THANKS!!!!
AFA Gary J Another satisfied customer... :)
DaviesDoug ?
AFL Jim GA Doug, you still have the floor/
DaviesDoug Ok, one more question since the queue is empty........
DaviesDoug The APW manual says that in the Advanced linker you can specify a
KIND field...
AFL Jim (ut oh)
DaviesDoug that is one WORD....I can only get it to recognize one byte....
Matt DTS !
AFL Jim GA Matt
DaviesDoug If the value is bigger than one byte the linker tells me it's too
large...
AFA Gary J Q = Doug (Matt)
Matt DTS That's because the APW Manual was written to descibe OMF 2.0,
which the Linker
DaviesDoug I've talked this over with DTS....just wanted more input
AFL Jim When the time is right
DaviesDoug and create conversation
DaviesDoug .done matt.
Matt DTS doesn't generate. (I finally tracked this down in an ERS today.)
Ran out of
Matt DTS bits in the one-byte field, so it was expanded. I think COMPACT
might let...
Matt DTS ...you set it, but I haven't tried in a long time. GA.
DaviesDoug doesn't....but I wrote a utility.....
DaviesDoug that will do it....as soon as JIM posts it!
DaviesDoug .done.
AFA Gary J <just got it in the library>
Dave Lyons How does the util work? Changes kind of first segment, or what?
DaviesDoug you type..... OMF <pathname> <segname> {body}lt;kind>
AFA Gary J Q = Doug
Dave Lyons Ah...good.
DaviesDoug lets you change any segment ............ DONE...
DaviesDoug must compact it first though.... Really done!
AFL Jim Look at that, it's time to call this meeting to a close and
there's no
Matt DTS Does it return an error if you try it on an OMF 1.0 file?
AFL Jim questions left.
Matt DTS (well, almost none.)
AFA Gary J :)
AFL Jim Maaaaaaaaattt
DaviesDoug Yes, of course matt, I'm am azzz good programmer!!!
Matt DTS (ok)
Matt DTS See y'all next week, then!
JSchober Night, Matt...
AFL Jim Thanks for coming tonight, everyone!
Dave Lyons Night, Matt...
AFA Gary J Goodnight, Matt.
ShrinkIt bye matt
AFC Mark Night, Matt
Matt DTS G'night, all!
AFL Jim See ya tomorrow, Mat
DaviesDoug Open conference if anyone wants to stay
AFL Jim right, Doug
DaviesDoug I have lot of questions....as matt knows
Dave Lyons Jim, see if you can find out about the Note Seq priority
question...I don't
Dave Lyons know where else to look.
AFL Jim I've noticed that, too, Doug and I've only been out here a week.
DaviesDoug :)
AFL Jack Jim, can you answer a 'hardware' question for me?
AFL Jim I've got to go read the boards. Remember, a contest is starting
this month in
Dave Lyons We can try, Jack....
AFL Jim both the Mac and Apple II Development Forums. I'll have details up
online this
AFL Jim week.
AFL Jack what is the size of the GS ROM? I want to update an older GS .
AFL Jim Sure Jack
JSchober 128K, Jack. Banks FE and FF.
DaviesDoug Anyone know how to get a CMS drive to work with the Apple SCSI
card?
AFL Jack ok, thanks! :)
AFL Jim Mine's about an inch by an inch and a half :)
Dave Lyons Yes, both ROM 00 and ROM 01 are 128K.
AFA Gary J :) <I was thinking the same thing... :) >
AFL Jack <groan> California like getting to you, huh Jim?
AFL Jim yep
JSchober Doug... well, it'll work just fine, but the >32 meg volumes must
be partitioned
AFL Jack all this sunshine....
AFL Marty <ugh>
AFA Gary J Jim, you need to have your OA-I ID changed. :)
JSchober using GS/OS or whatever. The CMS hardware partitioning will
conflict with the
DaviesDoug Mine won't even be recognized....
DaviesDoug I have the version c roms
JSchober Apple software partitioning.
DaviesDoug It works with the CMS card just fine
AFL Jim Yep, I just got a "real" address today.
AFA Gary J You found a house?
AFL Jack Anyone know where I can get an apple SCSI card for a good price?
JSchober Can you access/format it with the ADU, Doug?
Dave Lyons Gary, Jim's info is right...he's _from_ Kansas City...doesn't say
he's actually
Dave Lyons there! :)
DaviesDoug Any pins need setting on the card?
AFL Jim You must reinitialize, Doug
DaviesDoug NO
AFA Gary J hehe! Right, Dave.
JSchober Ummm... (does the Apple card HAVE pins??) I think all ya' gotta
do is format
JSchober it. However, on a >32 meg volume, the first partition WILL be
accessible with
DaviesDoug Well...this really isn't a CMS drive....
JSchober the Apple card, no matter what.
DaviesDoug it's a make-shift drive.....
JSchober (oh, it's not a CMS drive... that changes things... :)
DaviesDoug it's a conair drive (it's a SCSI drive)