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APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
January 24, 1989 10:00 p.m. Eastern time
Topic: Programming Shells, Environments and Utilities
Forum Leader: Gary Jacobson (AFA Gary J)
AFA Gary J Welcome to the Apple II Development Forum. Our trusty forum
leader, Jim Luther
AFA Gary J is moving to California to his new job at Apple this evening so
I'll be the
AFA Gary J referee in tonight's forum. :)
AFA Gary J Tonight's topic (should you decide to accept it) is Programming
Shells,
AFA Gary J Environments and Utilities.
AFA Parik (Hello DeadHead & C W Hess)
AFA Gary J We'll follow protocol this evening, so if you have a question ,
type a ?
DeadHead13 ?
AFA Gary J If you have a comment on the current topic, type a !
AFL Scott q=dead
AFA Gary J I'll prompt you and let you know when it's your turn to talk.
DeadHead13 Is mike on tonight? (Westerfield)
AFA Gary J Anyone have any burning questions this evening?
AFA Gary J Hi Floyd
Bluetamon ?
AFA Gary J GA, Blue
AFL Floyd Hi, Gary.
Bluetamon yeah, what's a real good double hi-res utility
AFA Gary J Hmmm... I've used the Beagle Brothers utility...
Bluetamon what's it called?
DaviesDoug !
DeadHead13 !
AFA Gary J (Trying to remember....looking...)
AFA Gary J Go ahead with your comment, Doug..
DennisDoms (Beagle Graphics?)
DaviesDoug shells remember?
Bluetamon (and utilities)
AFA Gary J :)
AFA Gary J Right...utilities too.
AFA Gary J It's called Beagle Graphics, by Mark Simonsen.
Bluetamon ?
AFL Scott Q=Blue... !=Davies,Dead
AFA Gary J DeadHead, did you have a comment?
AFL Scott Q+Blue
DeadHead13 Real quick, Beagle graphics is on sale for $30 directly from
Beagle bros!
Bluetamon Can it disassemble portions of the picture, and show the hex for
it?
DeadHead13 (special sale)!!
AFA Parik !
Bluetamon (waiting...)
AFA Gary J GA, Parik
AFA Parik no, as far as I know it can't disassemble it. I wrote a utility
for APW and
AFA Parik Orca however that will take any file and put it in its equivalent
source code
AFA Parik format. ga
AFA Gary J From what I recall about using the program, Parik is correct. I
used the
Clayburn ?
DwightW1 ?
AFA Gary J Merlin Souceror disassembler to produce Hex dumps of screen
blocks.
AFA Gary J Anything else, Blue?
DaviesDoug ?
AFL Scott Q+Clayburn, Dwight..
Bluetamon !
Bluetamon oops, ?
Clayburn Are there any demo shells with the source listings availible
AFA Parik !
Matt DTS !
AFA Gary J GA, Parik
DeadHead13 !
AFA Parik Don Elton should be releasing ECP 8 to the freeware market w/
source soon if
AFA Parik not already. ga
AFL Marty <hi Joe>
AFL Scott Q+Davies, Blue..!=Blue, Parik, Matt, Dead...
AFA Gary J I've just heard that version 5 of ECP is available and will be
AFA Gary J uploaded to the libaries soon.
AFL Floyd <I got it now, Scott>
Bluetamon Why does everybody here talk about the ORCA/M so much, and not
Merlin.
AFL Scott <Thanks Floyd...:)>
Bluetamon Is ORCA/M really that good?
AFA Gary J It does include the source.
AFA Gary J Matt, did you have a comment?
Matt DTS To avoid confusion, I'll point out that the SHELL.ASM (or SHELL.C)
programs...
AFL Floyd Q=Davies, Blue !=Deadhead
Matt DTS ...on the Source Code Sampler are not shell programs like APW, or
ECP or Davex;
Matt DTS rather, they're a basic shell around which to build your desktop
programs...
AFA Parik (Hi Bill!)
Matt DTS ...for the IIgs. (trying to avoid any confusion before it
starts). GA.
BillP Hi Parik!
AFA Gary J Ok, GA Doug with your question..
Bluetamon 8:) (zzzzz....)
DaviesDoug Do the runtime libararies exist yet?..........
DaviesDoug what is the best way to make a shell call?.....
DaviesDoug the user tool set?..............
DaviesDoug done
AFL Floyd Q=(DaviesDoug), Blutamon !=DeadHead
Matt DTS ! ! !
AFA Gary J GA Matt
Matt DTS 1. What run-time libraries? Some exist, but I don't know which
ones you mean.
Matt DTS 2. As far as I know, there's only one way to make a shell call,
and it's...
AFA Parik (Hi Andy & Andy :)
AndyWells Hi Andy..
DaviesDoug The loader runtime libraries your suppose to be able to make
Matt DTS ...documented in both the APW and ORCA/M manuals (IIgs).
AndyWells Hi Matt
Matt DTS 3. What about user tool sets? (some exist, also).
DaviesDoug No!!
ShrinkIt Hi to everyone who just splattered a flashnote across my screen...
:-)
Matt DTS 4. Try asking one question at a time and making it more
verbose.
DaviesDoug I want to write my own shell with calls and have others call my
routines
Matt DTS Loader run-time libraries: The APW linker won't create them, but
the...
Matt DTS ...MPW IIgs linker will. Speculation on bringing this to APW
isn't my dept.
AFL Floyd Q=(DaviesDoug), Bluetamon !=DeadHead
BillP :)
Matt DTS Writing your own shell: I'll pass on that one for the time
being.
Bluetamon (I don't have a question...never mind..)
AFA Gary J Matt? Pass? :)
Matt DTS I don't know exactly what about writing your own shell you're
asking, Doug.
AFL Floyd Q=(DaviesDoug) !=DeadHead
DaviesDoug about calling routines in my shell...letting other applications
call them
DaviesDoug like orca lets you do....but he uses the prodos vector
Bluetamon ?
DaviesDoug Mike W does
AFL Floyd q+Bluetamon
Bluetamon Is DOS considered a shell?? and does anybody know where to get
some good...
Bluetamon book on making your own dos??
Bluetamon (not Beneath apple dos or prodos, I have those..)
Matt DTS I'll pass on this to Dave Lyons, who inexplicably...
Matt DTS ...happens to be sitting beside me in this very room (life's funny
that way):
AFL Floyd Q=(DaviesDoug), Bluetamon !=Deadhead
AFA Gary J :)
AFA Gary J Doug, did you get your question answered?
Clayburn !
DaviesDoug not really
AFA Parik (yeahhh, the 23 limit has been exceeded... :-)
THE GIBBER (just got dumped)
AFA Gary J Maybe you could put it up on the message boards.
RosenNeil I thought 23 was a limit?
DaviesDoug just trying to create conversation!...I know how to do it!!!
AFL Floyd !=DeadHead, Clayburn
AndyWells 50 here
JSchober (not anymore!)
Matt DTS Doug, I think you'll end up intercepting the E100A8 vector just
like APW does;
Matt DTS can't think of anything better to do.
AFA Gary J Ok Blue... I don't consider DOS as a shell. It is an operating
system.
DaviesDoug user tool set works much better
DwightW1 ?
Clayburn Maybe someone should give the definition of a shell
AFL Floyd PROTOCOL!
AFA Gary J RIGHT!
AFA Gary J :)
Matt DTS !
AFL Floyd Q=(Bluetamon), DwightW1 !=Deadhead, Matt
AFA Gary J Matt, GA
DeadHead13 I have a comment
Matt DTS Oh, I'm Matt! He had to remind me. You might try requesting that
your shell
Matt DTS be assigned a range of command numbers (APW=$01xx, your shell
could have a
Matt DTS different range).
Matt DTS (ga)
DeadHead13 way back, bluetamon asked about source code for a shell. If you
get Orca for
DeadHead13 the //, you can also get the source code for the orca shell for an
extra 20
DeadHead13 <done>
AFL Floyd Q=DwightW1
DwightW1 my question follows...
DwightW1 why does the latest version of apw running under system v3.1 not
recoginize
DwightW1 the linked command whereas the earlier version of apw does?
Matt DTS !
DwightW1 i keep getting 'segment not in module
AFA Gary J GA Matt
Matt DTS So you're saying that it does *recognize* the command, but that it
won't work?
DwightW1 yes
DwightW1 all of the segments are present....
AFL Floyd < Q= is empty after Dwight >
Matt DTS (Matt's going to look for his APW reference...trying to find a
descr of that
Matt DTS error msg, which we've never seen. He HAS the manual....)
Matt DTS Dwight, it means "a segment you specified in the SELECT command is
not in the
Matt DTS file you are linking." Does your linked script have some
SELECTS
Matt DTS in it?
DwightW1 yes.....but....
Matt DTS I think there's a LINKED option that will report on the progress
through your
DwightW1 using the command with the same link file works with....
Matt DTS script as it goes, which should help you narrow down the
problem--looking now.
DwightW1 the 'old' apw
Matt DTS Are you linking C, assembly, both, or what? Did you change
compilers or
Matt DTS assemblers as well as changing linker versions?
DwightW1 assembly only
DwightW1 every thing is the same only update of apw
AFA Parik !
JeffDWoods !
AFA Gary J GA with your comment, Park
AFA Parik I thought the only update to APW was the tool interface files?
Why not just
AFA Gary J Ooops, Parik :)
DwightW1 i read the new apw document carefully regarding the linked
command
AFA Parik replace the old AINCLUDE subdirectory with the new one and see
what happens...
AFA Parik ga
DwightW1 ...no change from the old apw document
AFL Floyd < Q=(DwightW1) !=JeffDWoods >
DwightW1 will try and thank you
AFA Gary J Did you have a comment, Jeff?
JeffDWoods Matt asked if you updated the assembler, too. Did the APW update
include
JeffDWoods the assembler update?
JeffDWoods ga
DwightW1 no
AFA Gary J Anything else, Dwight?
JeffDWoods You're just lucky, I guess! :)
DwightW1 i am still using the original assembler from apw
AFL Floyd < queue is bone dry >
JeffDWoods ?
DwightW1 no... will try suggestion given
DwightW1 thank you
AFA Gary J Ok, GA with your question, Jeff
JeffDWoods What is everyones FAVORITE shell, environment, or utility? (How's
this?) :D
AFA Gary J heheh
Dan Burton !
JeffDWoods Just trying to stir up conversation! (or argument since their is
nothing else)
AFL Marty !
AFA Gary J What's yours, Dan?
AFA Parik !
Dan Burton one that hasn't been released yet
DwightW1 i have grown accustomed to apw....(now if i can just learn how to
use it) :)
AFA Gary J heh..I supposed you can't tell us about it, either?
JeffDWoods Are you being sarcastic, Dan?
BillP !
Dan Burton Its a secret
AFL Floyd <Q= (Jeff) != Marty, Parik, BillP >
Dan Burton It's going to be great thoug
AFA Gary J Ok...Marty, What do you like to use?
JerryK27 Hi Andy (ShrinkIt)... I got your mail and I think I know what is
wrong.
AFL Marty basic.system
AFL Marty (I love AppleSoft BASIC)
JeffDWoods (more VaporWare) I don't care about things I can't have (or
afford!)
AFA Gary J :) That's probably the one shell that most everyone is familiar
with.
ShrinkIt ok, I just sent you mail about it.
AFA Gary J (At least I consider it a shell)
ShrinkIt (to Jerry that was)
AFA Gary J GA with your comment, Parik
AFA Parik without a doubt, EdAsm.
JerryK27 I bet you aren't turning off the 5.25" drive motor... that will
cause the
Dan Burton ?
AndyWells Merlin 8/16 for me..
JerryK27 computer to hang when it tries to access the UniDisk 3.5
AFA Gary J Why do you like EdAsm, Parik?
AFA Parik It has power.
AFL Floyd < We're using protocol people :) >
AFA Parik Its versatile.
AFA Parik Its easy to use!
AFA Parik (and I'm joe Isuzu)
AFL Floyd < Q= (Jeff), Dan Burton !=BillP >
JSchober :) thought so... I was getting worried, Parik...
AFL Marty <bless you Parik>
JeffDWoods It won't generate GS/OS applications or DAs.
AFA Gary J How about you, Bill?
BillP MPW IIGS I can't live without the automatic help features and
multiple editors
JSchober (it won't generate ANYTHING!) !
JeffDWoods See comment above re: "affordable". ;)
AFA Gary J Parik, now THAT'S power! (MPW)
AFA Parik (the mini-moniter has more power! :)
AFA Gary J One of my favorite utilites is Dave Lyon's Nifty List CDA. It is
great
AFL Floyd < Q= (Jeff), Dan Burton >
AFA Gary J in trying to disassemble and debug code (and I also know that
Dave's probably
JSchober err... !!!
AFA Gary J reading this... :)
ShrinkIt (shucks, and here I thought parik hand-coded everything... I'm
disappointed ;)
AFL Floyd < Q= (Jeff), Dan != Joe >
AFA Gary J Jeff, do you have a comment?
JeffDWoods Nope. Good comments. Except Parik. :)
AFA Gary J Ok then, on to Dan's question. GA Dan.
JeffDWoods ga, Dan
AFA Parik :P
Dan Burton Is there any rules on sharing Tools in a shell enviroment
AFL Floyd < Joe had a comment >
Matt DTS !
AFA Gary J Missed you Joe...do you want to slip one in here before we answer
Dan's
AFA Gary J question?
JSchober Yup... about the utils: My two favorites are Nifty List, for the
commented
JSchober disassemblies (and everything else it offers!), and the nice
simple Monitor/
JSchober Mini-assembler pair. Far faster than any commercial product for
doing quick
JSchober changes to m/l code, and immediately trying it out again. That's
all, GA...
AFL Floyd < Q= (Dan) !=Matt >
AFA Gary J Ok, Matt, GA on Dan's question.
Matt DTS Unlike DAs, there is no "minimum" set of tools that are guaranteed
to be...
Matt DTS ..started up when a shell application is launched, so each one
should...
Matt DTS ...start any tools it needs which aren't already active, and shut
them down...
Matt DTS ...if it started them up. There are no rules on "sharing" tools
among...
Matt DTS ...different applications (as opposed to apps and DAs, for
example) because...
Matt DTS ...no one's written a MultiFinder or Switcher type program yet to
need such...
Matt DTS ...rules. GA.
AFA Gary J Does that answer it for you, Dan?
AFL Floyd < Queue is empty >
Dan Burton What happens when someone writes a Multifinder type
application??????
Matt DTS We shoot them for overusing their punctuation. <evil grin>
AFA Gary J :)
JeffDWoods !
Matt DTS Hopefully, those people (or that person) will ask us at Apple for
some...
Dan Burton oh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Matt DTS ...guidelines on how best to do this.
Dan Burton Ok I'm asking.
JeffDWoods !!
AFL Floyd < !=JeffDWoods >
Dan Burton But it may be to late
AFA Gary J GA, Jeff
Matt DTS We would need to see it through official channels, phrased more
specifically,
Matt DTS Dan, to give the best answers.
JeffDWoods There may never be a Multifinder for the GS as it exists now....
Dan Burton It can and will be done
JeffDWoods TMH2 (Mike Howeth) & I started poking around trying to see how
close we could
DwightW1 didn't roger wagner write a switcher program for the //gs?
JeffDWoods get to a MultiLauncher (as we called it).
AFL Floyd < SoftSwitch is ProDOS 8 only >
JSchober (can't you have one P16 application?)
JeffDWoods The farther we got in trying to intercept calls to force
compatible sharing
AFL Marty (no)
AFA Gary J (depends upon the P16 application)
JeffDWoods of toolsets and OS, the more problems we ran into. I believe that
Apple will
JSchober !
JeffDWoods have to write a new set of toolbox routines and firmware (with RAM
vectors)
DaviesDoug !
AFA Gary J GA, Joe
JSchober It's a shame that the Scheduler has such a rotten small queue...
(4 items?)
JeffDWoods & perhaps a different OS (don't know about GS/OS, yet) to allow
the cooperation
JeffDWoods needed to implement. When Apple is ready for the ][ to do it, it
could. ga
JSchober It seems that if that was far bigger, and some other things
changed, you could
AFL Floyd < !=DaviesDoug >
JSchober get away with at LEAST a partial MultiFinder. But as I understand
it, Apple
JSchober deliberately restricted the Scheduler to PREVENT that... (that
more or less
JSchober correct, Matt?) GA...
AFA Parik <- can just imagine multitasking on a GS. "Wow, look at AW GS
print twice as
AFA Parik slow..." :-)
Matt DTS Keep me out of this, Joe!
DeadHead13 ?
JSchober Ugggh, Parik... don't think about THAT. :) Matt...
AFA Gary J GA with your comment, Doug
DaviesDoug I agree with Dan, it can and WILL be done (sorta)
ShrinkIt (multitask? ewwww... watch it crawl after 3 applications... )
JeffDWoods !
DaviesDoug We do work for the same company though so I must agree
AFA Gary J GA Jeff
DaviesDoug besides Dan's my boss
JeffDWoods Toolbox
AFA Parik LOL!
AFA Gary J :)
AFA Parik the boss is always right...:)
Matt DTS Yeah, the truth comes out... :)
JeffDWoods Toolbox Ref. Mnl.: "The Scheduler is not designed to support
multitasking."19-7
AFL Floyd < Q=DeadHead >
JSchober Right, exactly, Jeff...
JeffDWoods page 19-7, that is. ga
DeadHead13 What's this about Multitasking? Any plans for it Matt??
DeadHead13 Maybe in the next incarnation of the GS?
DeadHead13 ga
JeffDWoods Apple will HAVE to write the system (incl. tools, firmware, and
OS) to allow it
JSchober >> Matt DTS Keep me out of this, Joe! << (replace Joe with
DeadHead. ;)
AFA Gary J I don't think he'll answer that, Deadhead :)
AFA Parik (Matt's trying to find his "I cannot comment..." macro :)
AFA Gary J Ok, I have an announcement to make...
JSchober (given to all Apple employees... along the same line as the ol'
cyanide
BillP more like the "Are you out of your Vulcan mind" button
JSchober capsules...)
DeadHead13 Does that mean that Apple is working on the "Amiga Killer" and
can't comment?
AFA Gary J Next week's Development Forum conference (on January 31st) will
be
AFA Parik LOL, you heard about that too, eh...
AFL Marty hahahahaha
AFL Marty the Amiga killer? hahaha
AFA Gary J held in AppleLink's Cortland Auditorium. Alan Bird of Beagle Bros
will be our
AFA Gary J guest. Alan is the author of D-Code, an Applesoft debugging
utility, Program
AFA Gary J Writer, a full-screen editor for Applesoft; and the Beagle
Compiler, a ProDOS
AFA Gary J based Applesoft BASIC compiler.
AFA Parik ()()() :::clap::: :::clap::: :::clap::: kudo's to Gary for
running a fine
AFA Parik show.
AFA Gary J We hope to see you all there in the Cortland next week.
ShrinkIt apple? an amiga killer? hee... hee... please, spare me... lol.
but I wouldn'
JSchober Thanks, Gary! :) (and AFA Floyd... ;)
Matt DTS See y'all later, gang.
ShrinkIt t mind beeing proven wrong... :)
AFA Gary J The hour for this chat is up, but we'll kill the protocol and have
it out
AFL Floyd Joe: :p
AFA Gary J as long as you want now :)
JSchober hehehe
AFA Parik heh
AFA Gary J Thanks, Floyd.
JSchober (better not anger da boss, tho... :)
DeadHead13 Matt left?
AFA Gary J Bye, Matt.
AFL Floyd No problema.
AFL Marty (he got outta here fast!)
AFA Parik Matt's going to go work on the Amiga Killer.
JSchober He didn't want to talk about the Amiga killer ANY MORE! :)
AFL Floyd :)
JSchober Right, what Parik said..
ShrinkIt of course, would you stick around if you were an apple employee
and you were
AFA Gary J Hehe... what do you expect? :)
DeadHead13 What doe everyone else think about multi tasking on te future
GS?
ShrinkIt going to be peppered with more questions?
DeadHead13 Anyone have inside info?
AFA Parik I'm not holding my breath...
JSchober It'll come... AWGS already does it, somewhat...
DaviesDoug party time!!!
DaviesDoug party time!!!
AFA Parik I'm having problems with the current GS. :)
ShrinkIt multitasking? no before we get a faster machine. IE - never.
Dan Burton A lot of things didn't get thoug over very well while writing the
tools
JSchober Well, so we need a faster processor... picky picky...
DeadHead13 Not problems, just slow
AFA Gary J WE can comment on it all we want, but obviously Matt can't! :)
JSchober (hey, could =someone= send me a copy of tonight's log?)
DaviesDoug I think it's very possible
AFL Marty I multitask on the GS right now.
JSchober LOL Gary...
AFA Parik Jeff, what did you want to deescusss?
Dan Burton other wise multitasking would be a lot easier
AFA Parik So do I marty, but I have multiple GSs. :)
AFL Marty Me too!
AFL Marty :)
DeadHead13 how marty?
AFA Parik hehe
AFL Marty Two GS's
JeffDWoods Joe, I logged everything. You want a copy?
AFL Floyd Marty means he can chew gum and use his GS at the same time! ;)
DaviesDoug Apple talk is running in the back ground. Sorta multi-tasking
JSchober Yuppers, if you please... thanks! :)