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LIST FILE ON MARGIN IS 80 STATUS: ALL ALLOWED NUMBER OF LINES: 629 1 If you are in need of help, you need but ask.... 2 ************************** REMOVED: 2 OCT 83 *********************** 3 Welcome to BWMS (BackWater Message System) Mike Day System operator 4 ************************************************************ 5 GENERAL DISCLAIMER: BWMS IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INFORMATION PLACED ON 6 THIS SYSTEM. 7 BWMS was created as an electronic bill board. BWMS is a privatly owned 8 and operated system which is currently open for use by the general public. 9 No restrictions are placed on the use of the system. 10 It is intended that the system be normally used for messages and 11 advertisments by the users. As the system is privatly owned, I retain the 12 right to remove any and all messages which I may find offensive 13 to me. Additionally because of the limited size of the system, it will be 14 periodically purged of older messages. (only 629 lines of data can be saved) 15 The saved information will be cycled to drive 'B' while the information on 16 drive 'B' will be archived, and a fresh disk will be installed in drive 'A'. 17 To leave a message, type 'ENTER' and use ctrl/C or break to get out 18 of the enter mode. The message is automaticly stored. 19 If after entering the message you find you made a mistake, 20 use the replace command to replace the line. 21 To exit from the system, type 'OFF' then hang up. 22 Type 'HELP' to see other commands that are available on the system. 23 ======================================== 24 25 HI SUE IN PORTLAND IM HAVING A GRAT DEAL OF FUN PLAYING WITH THE COMPUTER 26 PLEASE CALL ME AS SOON AS YOU READ THIS MESSAGE. 27 28 29 TERRY IN SALEM 30 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 31 THIS IS V-E-R-Y INTERESTING. WE START 32 WITH RELIGION IS A ROOT OF ALL WARS 33 (BLAMING RELIGION) THEN GRADUATE TO HOW 34 POWER-MONGERS USE RELIGION TO RALLY THEIR PEOPLE. 35 NOW SPEAKING OF LOGIC--HOW CAN YOU BLAME 36 RELIGION FOR THE WAY SOME CHOOSE TO USE 37 IT. NOW YOU ARE BLAMING THE POWER-MONGERS 38 AND THEN SHIFTING BLAME TO RELIGION. 39 AS TO GOD'S CAPABILITY IN RUNNING THE 40 WORLD (SUPPOSING GOD EXISTS), IF GOD 41 WIPED OUT ALL THE PEOPLE WHO MADE A-BOMBS 42 AND GERM WARFARE AND TERRORISM, ETC., 43 WHAT KIND OF OUTCRY WOULD BE RAISED THEN? 44 IE HOW CAN ANYONE CHOOSE THEIR OWN WAY 45 WITH THE THREAT OF IMMEDIATE DESTRUCTION 46 HANGING OVER THEIR HEADS IF THEY BLOOK 47 CROSS-EYED AT SOMEONE THEY'RE NOT MARRIED 48 TO. "WE'RE ROBOTS...CAN'T MAKE OUR OWN 49 CHOICES--OUR OWN MISTAKES!!" WE HEAR THAT 50 FROM TEEN-AGERS ABOUT THEIR PARENTS 51 ALREADY--SO WE KNOW IT WOULD HAPPEN. NOW 52 THAT WE MAKE OUR OWN MISTAKES WE BLAME 53 (WHATEVER GOD THERE IS) FOR ALL OUR "HIS" PROBLEMS. WHEW!!!! TALK ABOUT LOGIC! 54 ((((((((((((((((WAYNE))))))))))))))))))) 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 66 WELL NOW! 67 WAYNE JUST ABOVE ME HERE HAS MANAGED TO WRITE OVER THE TOP OF MY MESSAGE, 68 ERASING EVERYTHING EXCEPT MY !!!!! LINE, SO HERE GOES AGAIN. HOPEFULLY THE 69 ABOVE WAS ACCIDENTAL RATHER THAN JUDGEMENTAL, AND THIS COPY WILL STAY. 70 71 PAM : THERE IS A GREAT BODY OF WORK THAT HAS BEEN DONE BY RATHER FAMOUS 72 FIGURES IN THE FIELD OF LOGIC AND PHILOSOPHY THAT TENDS TO SHOW THAT 73 LOGIC IS INDEED A RATHER LIMITED TOOL FOR THE SOLUTION OF ANY HUMAN PROBLEM 74 OR FOR THE CONDUCT OF HUMAN REASONING. IT HAS BEEN DEMONSTRATED BY EVRYONE 75 FROM ST. THOMAS AQUINAS TO EMMANUAL KANT TO WHITEHEAD THAT THERE IS NO 76 WAY TO PROVE THAT LOGIC BEARS ANY RELATIONSHIP TO REALITY. THAT WE BELIEVE 77 IT DOES IS ONLY A BELIEF, AS IS TRUE OF THE USE AND MISUSE OF STATISTICS 78 AS WELL. THERE IS ALSO A GREAT DEAL OF EMPIRICAL BACKGROUND TO SHOW 79 THAT FORMAL LOGIC HAS LITTLE TO DO WITH THE PROGRESS OF HUMAN KNOWLEDGE 80 OR REASON. 81 I BELIEVE THAT YOU MAY BE CONFUSING REASON WITH LOGIC. REASON IS 82 A MUCH LESS RIGOROUS PROCESS. ALL OF THE OBJECTIONS TO THE ARGUMENTATIVE 83 TECHNIQUES USED HERE ON BMS ARE JUST THAT - NOT OBJECTIONS TO INCORRECT 84 LOGICAL CONSTRUCTS,E.G. POINTING OUT THE INCORRECT CONSTRUCTION OF 85 SYLLOGISMS. IT IS WORTH NOTING HERE THAT IT IS ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO CONSTRUCT 86 MEANINGFUL SYLLOGISMS IN ORDINARY ENGLISH, AND THAT VERY FEW PEOPLE 87 USING THIS BOARD CAN BE EXPECTED TO BE FLUENT IN THE LANGUAGE OF 88 FORMAL PHILOSOPHY, INCLUDING MYSELF. 89 THAT IS NOT TO SAY THAT OBJECTING TO A ARGUMENTATIVE TECHNIQUE 90 CAN'T BE A VALUABLE OBJECTION. YOU DON'T HAVE TO LIVE VERY LONG TO 91 REALIZE THAT MANY COMMON ARGUMENTATIVE TECHNIQUES ARE UNFAIR AND COUNTER 92 PRODUCTIVE. ESPECIALLY WHEN DIRECTED AT ONESELF. THIS HAS NOTHING TO 93 DO WITH FORMAL LOGIC THOUGH. 94 95 " AM I NOT GETTING CLOSER AND CLOSER TO SAYING THAT IN THE END LOGIC 96 CANNOT BE DESCRIBED? YOU MUST LOOK AT THE PRACTICE OF LANGUAGE...." 97 "....IT WOULD ALSO STRIKE ME AS NONSENSE TO SAY 'I KNOW THAT THE THEORY 98 OF INDUCTION IS TRUE'........" 99 (LUDWIG WITTGENSTEIN, "ON CERTAINTY") 100 101 WHAT I THINK IS THAT LOGIC PROBABLY LESS IMPORTANT THAN INTUITION, 102 RESTLESNESS, ARGUMENTATIVE ATTACK, THE DESIRE TO WIN OUT OVER OTHERS, 103 CREATIVE DESIRE, EMPIRICAL REASONING, LIFE EXPERIENCE,ETC. IN THE 104 PROGRESS OF HUMANITY AND HUMAN REASON. 105 106 HOWEVER, I AGREE WITH ALL OF YOUR OBJECTIONS TO ARGUMENTATIVE TECHNIQUE, 107 EXCEPT ONE, ARE VALID AS LONG AS WE AGREE THAT WE ARE NOT TALKING 108 ABOUT FORMAL LOGIC. THAT ONE IS THE USE OF ANECDOTAL MATERIAL, WHICH 109 IS CRITICAL FOR THE PROCESSES OF LEARNING AND ANALOGY. THIS 110 ANECDOTAL TECHNIQUE ONLY BREAKS DOWN WHEN THE SOURCES OF THE ANECDOTE 111 OR THE DETAILS OF IT ARE UNCERTAIN. NOTE THAT ANECDOTES DO NOT HAVE EVEN 112 HAVE TO BE TRUE, JUST ILLUSTRATIVE. ONE COMMUNICATES ONES EXPERIENCE, AND 113 THIS IS CALLED ANECDOTAL.(OR SOMEONE ELSE'S EXPERIENCE). IT IS TRUE 114 THAT THERE ARE OTHER WAYS TO DO ANALOGY AND LEARNING, BUT THIS IS A VERY 115 IMPORTANT ONE. YOU WILL PROBABLY AGREE THAT IT IS THE WAY ANECDOTAL 116 MATERIAL IS USED THAT MAKES IT VALID OR INVALID 117 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!HROTHGAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 118 I LOVE Markham Middle School 119 120 help 121 122 lI 123 list 124 list 125 off 126 list 127 print 128 enter 129 help 130 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 131 DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY THE LINE WAS BUSY FOR THE TWO HOURS SINCE MY LAST 132 VOLUME OF BUSHWA AND THE ABOVE THRASHING AROUND (FAILURE TO USE CONTROL-C) 133 IS THE ONLY ADDITION. WHAT DO YOU THINK THE RATIO OF CONTRIBUTORS TO 134 LURKERS ON THIS SYSTEM HAS GOTTEN TO BE? 135 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!HROTHGAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 136 ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, 137 138 WHERE IS MARKHAM MIDDLE SCHOOL??????????? 139 140 ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, 141 /Z?Z/Z/z/Z/Z/Z/Z/Z/Z/Z?Z/Z?Z/Z/Z/ 142 TO EVERYONE : 143 LOOK ON DISK DRIVE B 144 SUBJECT "HP 3000'CC 145 /Z/Z?Z/Z/Z/ XENON /Z/Z/Z/Z/Z/Z/Z/ 146 How do you get to drive B? WGH 147 148 149 150 HROTHGAR: I ASSURE YOU THAT WRITING OVER 151 YOUR MESSAGE WAS ENTIRELY ACCIDENTAL. I 152 ENJOY READING MESSAGES ON THIS SYSTEM, 153 AND I WILL ENDEAVOR TO KEEP MY FOOTPRINTS 154 OUT OF PLACES THEY DON'T BELONG SO OTHERS 155 CAN ENJOY IT, TOO. 156 ((((((((((((((((WAYNE))))))))))))))))))) 157 -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_- 158 - Xenon, I think that's a great idea!! There is a teacher in - 159 - our school who goes to the MCESD EVERY day. He gave me - 160 - LEGAL access to the CIS system. I mentioned it to him and - 161 - he said to keep reminding him to talk to the MCESD'ers - 162 - it. Gimme a call.... let's discuss this! - 163 - - 164 - TRON - 165 -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_- 166 WGH : TYPE DB AT THE > PROMPT 167 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!HROTHGAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 168 XENON: WHO IS MCESD AND HOW COME THEY GOT $100,000 FOR A LEARNING MACHINE? 169 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!HROTHGAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 170 RELIGION---BEING BROUGHT UP AS A CATHOLIC DOES 171 NOT HELP IN THIS DISCUSSION. ALL THROUGH GRADE AND 172 HIGH SCHOOL THE IDEA OF THE SUPREME BEING IS 173 FORCE FED TO YOU. 174 175 ACTUALLY IN HIGH SCHOOL THE FIRST THING THE PRIEST 176 TELLS YOU IS THAT EVEN THOUGH YOU HAVE BEEN "FED" 177 THE BIBLE, IT IS NOT REALLY THE FACTS. IT IS WHAT THEY 178 WOULD LIKE YOU TO BELIEVE. 179 IT DOESN'T HELP...ONLY LEAVES YOU WITH A FEELING THAT 180 THERE IS A BIG GUY....... 182 TYPE AND FORM UNKNOWN..>. 183 MR BILL 184 ++++++++++++++;++++++++)+++++++++++++++++ 185 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] 186 HROTHGAR, YOU ARE BOTH RIGHT AND WRONG. ANECDOTE IS NOT ACCEPTABLE AS 187 ARGUMENT. IT CAN BE USED IN SUPPORT OF AN ARGUMENT, BUT NOT AS THE 188 ARGUMENT. TOO MANY PEOPLE THINK THAT A PERSONAL EXPERIENCE CAN BE 189 USED TO SUPPORT THE GENERAL SITUATION. YOU MAY HAVE KNOWN A LAZY 190 BLACK MAN, A DRUNKEN IRISHMAN, ETC., BUT THAT IS NOT AN ARGUMENT THAT 191 BLACKS ARE LAZY, IRISH ARE DRUNKS, BUT MERELY THAT YOU KNEW MEMBERS 192 OF THOSE GROUPS THAT FIT THOSE LABELS. AND I RESOLUTELY REJECT 193 INTUITION AS SUPERIOR TO ANYTHING. THERE ARE INDIVIDUALS THROUGHOUT 194 HISTORY THAT COULD USE INTUITION TO LEAD THEM ON TO NEW CONCEPTS AND 195 IDEAS, BUT THEY ARE RARE. THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE (MYSELF INCLUDED) 196 USUALLY HAVE INTUITIVE SPARKS THAT ARE BASED ON THEIR PERSONAL BIAS 197 AND ARE MOSTLY WRONG. YOU ARE QUITE CORRECT WHEN YOU SAY THAT 198 LOGIC BY ITSELF PROVES NOTHING. AND YOU CAN SAY THAT CONSTRUCTION 199 EQUIPMENT BY ITSELF BUILDS NOTHING. BOTH ARE MERELY TOOLS TO BE USED 200 TO BUILD WITH, AND ARE POWERLESS ALONE. YOU DON'T VIOLATE THESE 201 SIMPLE RULES OF ARGUMENT YOURSELF. I'VE NEVER SEEN YOU LOWER YOURSELF 202 TO AN AD HOMINEM LIKE OUR "UNSIGNED" FRIEND DID A FEW DISKS AGO. 203 EVEN ARE MOST RECENT DISCUSSION OF GOD EVENTUALLY CAME DOWN TO 204 WHETHER ONE ACCEPTED THE APPEAL TO THE AUTHORITY OF THE BIBLE. SO 205 IF YOU WISH TO ARGUE THAT THIS IS NOT DEFINEABLE AS RULES OF LOGIC, 206 I WILL ACCEPT YOUR POSITION (WHILE NOT NECESSARILY AGREEING). BUT 207 IF YOU FEEL THAT THE RULES OF LOGICAL ARGUMENT ARE NOT VALID, THEN 208 THERE CAN NEVER BE CONCLUSIONS ARRIVED AT THAT MANY CAN AGREE WITH, 209 SHORT OF THOSE THAT AGREE WITH WHAT THE INDIVIDUAL HAS AN EMOTIONAL 210 STAKE IN. AND, WHILE I AGREE STATISTICS CAN BE MANIPULATED TO PROVE 211 WHATEVER POSITION YOU TAKE, ANY PROPER ANALYSIS OF STATISTICS THAT 212 HAVE BEEN MANIPULATED THUS WILL SHOW THAT THE PROPER PICTURE IS 213 BEING HIDDEN. IF YOU DON'T HAVE ALL THE EVIDENCE YOU CAN'T MAKE THIS 214 EVALUATION, BUT IF THE SUBJECT IS OF ANY IMPORTANCE AT ALL, THERE 215 WILL BE SOMEONE THAT DOESN'T AGREE AND WHO WILL TAKE THE STATISTICS 216 APART TO SHOW THEY ARE WRONG. 217 ON A LIGHTER NOTE, HROTHGAR, THANKS FOR RESPONDING TO ME IN A 218 MANNER NOT INSULTING OR DEROGATORY. I FIND THAT THERE ARE MANY THAT 219 I AGREE WITH THAT ARE SO INSULTING IN THEIR RHETORIC THAT I EITHER 220 REMAIN SILENT, OR FIND MYSELF TEMPTED TO ARGUE WITH THEM MERELY TO 221 SEE THE PROVERBIAL STEAM COME OUT OF THEIR EARS. BUT YOUR 222 RESPONSE WAS REASONED AND TEMPERED THAT IT WAS HARD FOR ME TO RESPOND 223 IN SUPPORT OF MY OPINIONS. MY 'ATS OFF TA YA, SPORT!! 224 225 [][][][][][][][][][][][]PAM.[][][][][][] 226 227 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~ 228 229 Mr. Bill: Are you or have you recently been a Tektronix employee? 230 231 Mikey: I think we have all generalized a bit here and there. For 232 example, I am sure there have been numerous Christians who have con- 233 tributed considerably to the welfare of mankind. Likewise there have been 234 scientist who have developed instruments of our destruction. When I 235 speak of a particular cross-section of society as a whole I attempt to 236 typify the characteristics of the majority of its members. If I feel 237 there is no CLEAR majority I tend to avoid such generalization. 238 I think you will have to agree that without scientific innovation, the 239 net result would be a far lower standard of living. (We have already 240 discussed the hazards of living in caves. Who wants to go through life 241 covered with Chiropteran excrement?) 242 Although we now face potential extinction, I strongly feel we would 243 have met this fate millennia ago had it not been for the advent of 244 Science. I believe a stable society 245 depends on the balance in technological and socialogical advancements 246 in that society and our current instability is resultant from our 247 abandonment of sociological endeavors. 248 In contrast, although some religious organizations have made contributions 249 to the well-being of specific persons in specific areas (missionaries, 250 CCF, etc.) this has most often been 251 done with the alterior motive of recruiting new followers and, more 252 importantly the only lasting effects on society as a whole (that I am 253 aware of) have been pernicious. 254 I have condemned religion, in general, on this basis; but I feel that 255 you have based your condemnation of the scientific community on a few 256 exceptions to the rule. Please see Pam's discussion above. 257 258 Pam: many good comments above regarding the use and misuse 259 of logic (as the construction tools) and statistics. I might suggest 260 furthering the analogy by relating statistics to the building materials. 261 Without the proper tools, materials and someone knowlegeable of carpentry, 262 the building is likely to crumble. 263 264 Xenon: Pardon my ignorance (also correct me) if I'm wrong, but isn't 265 MCESD = Multnomah County Educational Service District?? (or something 266 like that) Aren't they tax supported? Such an installation would be very 267 taxing! Also, just to satisfy my curiousity, why did you select an 268 HP3000? As long as we're spending money, I would prefer a Cray-II. 269 I too would like to have local access to a mainframe system (besides Tek 270 & PSU) but I suspect that the reason it has not already been done is that 271 it is cost prohibitive. 272 273 Whomever: I suspect that besides causation there is another significant 274 reason for the correlation between religion and militarism. It seems 275 that some models of the Human CPU are supplied with varying amounts of 276 RAM and EAROM. While some may require some special signals or stimuli 277 (such as evidence) for reprogramming, others are easily programmed and 278 reprogrammed by church, state or any other body which, to them, repre- 279 sents authority. 280 281 Dirty Ol' Man 282 283 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~ 284 285 Pam, although are correct in requesting logiic, as far as it goes, but we 286 have more to do here than prove something right or wrong, we attemp to 287 convey information or convince. ((My, do I have a bad connectio!!!)) 288 It aids in understanding to have anecdotes !n analogies. we humans (am I 289 including too much) are not very logical, in the traditional silogisn 290 sense, relying on such as majority logic and gut feeling. Intuition is more 291 a name for "I don't know why, but"; I suspect if we look deeper we will find 292 it no different from any other thinking. 293 The accusations against religion are unfounded, apparently as no reasons 294 ar1 given. When reasons are given, I am reminded of the claims of semi- 295 literate neo-freudians who say "all human actions are driven by sex." By 296 the time theyhave told you how this is so, they have defined sex to mean 297 'everything that causes human action'. But this isn't what I mean when I 298 say sex, or when you think sex, so it means nothing. 299 The Bible doesn'tc claim to be easily understandable, perhaps it is better 300 vagues, as it can then apply to situations not expect%d by the writers. 301 ///////////_//////////////////////BAD\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ 302 Pam, what kind of terminal or program do you user that creates that line 303 down the middle of the screen?? 304 ///////////////////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ 305 ********************************************************************* 306 DOM: JUST WANTED TO POINT OUT THAT THE SCIENTISTS HANDS WERE NOT SPIC AND 307 SPAN CLEAN EITHER... 308 ****** CISTOP MIKEY ******* 28 SEPT 83 ********* 8:20AM ************** 309 To: DOM (or whoever) I must point out that "appealing to authority" 310 in an argument is done more often than is realized. I must also 311 point out that it is sometimes "neccessary". Taken strictly, one 312 would have to PERSONALLY check EVERYTHING otherwise you are "appealing 313 to the authority" who told you! This is obviously impossible (well 314 - impractical anyway!). The main example in recent arguments was 315 calling d's excerpts from the bible "appealing to authority" (I'm 316 going to abbreviate that as "a.t.a" for the rest of this msg!) 317 Since the subject being discussed was the beliefs of Christians 318 & Christian doctrine etc., calling this "a.t.a" is like calling 319 a quote from a physics text "a.t.a"! Quoting from the bible 320 qualifies as "a.t.a" ONLY when you are attempting to prove a 321 point NOT involving religion! 322 By the way isn't a phyics experiment "a.t.a", with the 323 UNIVERSE as the "authority"? Think about it! 324 Also, I beleive we had a circular argument on the last 325 disk. To wit: You can't prove the existence of God because there 326 is no evidence! I mean REALLY now! That has to be the silliest 327 excuse for an argument that I have heard in at least a MONTH. All 328 that lack of evidence "proves" is that there isn't any evidence. 329 I know we aren't trying for "formal" proofs here, but anyone who 330 can't see that lack of evidence doesn't prove things had better 331 stay out of our discussions. 332 333 And now for something completely different...... 334 I am looking for a "telephone device" (hereinafter referred to as a "box"). 335 This box must have 1 modular jack of the type used for wall-to-phone 336 connections & 1 jack of the type used for connecting the 337 handset. It must have a switch of some sort to for on-hook/off-hook. 338 Ring indication is optional (nice, but I can do without). 339 Dialing capability is optional (if present, must be touchtone) 340 Box should be as small as possible (target: cigarette pack size) 341 Kit or plans acceptable. FCC certification optional. 342 In case you are wondering, this is for use between a "headset" 343 intended to replace a normal handset & a TRS-80 Model 100. The 344 Model 100 has PULSE dialing capability thru a built-in direct 345 connect modem & will function as an auto-dialer WITH or WITHOUT 346 use of the modem! I think it's kind of silly to have a "handset" 347 the size of a set of Walkman(R)(or TM or whatever) headphones, a 348 computer/terminal/autodialer the size of a SMALL hardback & then 349 be stuck with a phone that is "bulkier" than BOTH. 350 PLEASE make suggestions, offer help etc! 351 _____________________________Leonard___________________________ 352 TO: ALL 353 FROM: LINDA 354 355 PERSONALIZED BOOKEEPING SERVICE AVAILABLE. I SPECIALIZE IN 356 SMALL BUSINESS BOOKEEPING/FINANCIAL REPORTING. COMPLETE-- 357 INFORMATIVE--FEES NEGOTIABLE. 358 359 CALL 661-xxxx 360 361 --------------------------------- 362 Idea for a product: I often find myself simultaneously wanting to use my 363 computer and TV. That is, I want to watch a TV program, and do some editing 364 or something. And I'm not too bothered if the program isn't all that clean. 365 Light bulb flashes! Mix the computer and TV signal, so that you can see both. 366 At a moment's notice, you can control the mix such that you can eliminate one 367 or the other signal. So during the boring commercials you can zap them, or 368 stop the computer signal during chase scenes. 369 **************************************************** P. V. Jeltz 370 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 28 Sep 83 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< 371 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 19:30 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< 372 DOM, I meant that such evidence takes time to gather, and my time 373 is severely limited right now--for instance, I should be trussing up 374 my belongings tonight, for a change in residence is coinciding with 375 this conversation--but I wanted to leave the promise that I am not 376 abandoning the Backwater! Comparing the quest for proof of a creator 377 to searching for a dime in one's pocket is quite the oversimplication 378 of an issue, DOM. In roughly a week, I'll buy out time from sleep 379 to come back and present a side of the debate regarding god/the Bible 380 that is not well represented on the Backwater. 381 A comment was made regarding the authenticity of the Bible's 382 authorship earlier, as follows: "There is not a shred of evidence 383 that would stand up in a properly conducted court of reason." It 384 brought to mind a quote from a certain Salmon P. Chase, former chief 385 justice of the US Supreme Court, who questioned the Bible, as well. 386 He decided to examine it as he would examine any matter in court, 387 taking evidence for it and against it. What was the result? I quote: 388 "It was a long, serious, and profound study: and using the same 389 principles of evidence in this religious matter as I always do in 390 secular matters, I have come to the decision that the Bible is a 391 supernatural book, that it has come from God." But I don't feel 392 that one quote should convice a person yea or nay; rather, I feel 393 that each person should embark on their own investigation. How 394 does the Bible measure up to history and science when it touches 395 on these? How well--and why--has it been preserved through the 396 centuries? What evidence of prophetic fullfillment has there been? 397 What makes it different from other religious writings? Finally, 398 does it have true internal harmony, which would be evidence of one 399 author? All of these are questions I myself have queried on, and 400 subsequently found satisfying answers--i.e., solid evidence and 401 clear reasoning to support the response. So...next week! 402 Aaron, my sister was quite taken by your greeting, and she 403 relayed this via slow, scratching pen, as follows: 404 | * | * | * | * | * | * | * | * | * | 405 To: Aaron From: Lori 406 Yes, I am well. Your graciousness moves me for I felt that I 407 was "a mist appearing for a short while and then disappearing." 408 West Seattle High West School is where I graduated from. 409 Farewell, sweet friend! 410 | * | * | * | * | * | * | * | * | * | 411 Aaiee, the time! I meant to stay but a few minutes at the Inn, 412 and still yet I tarry, trying to compose a small ode of appreciation 413 to Leonard, for his thought-provokers...but alas, I cannot. 414 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> d <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< 415 I have never been very impressed by religionists, mainly because the ones 416 I've met tend to be single-minded airheads. I'm not talking, by the way, about the run-of-the-mill, man-on-the street 417 believer, of course. The difference is clear: I have known some people for a number of years, and for most of them 418 I never learned what religion they practiced. But there are some people whose very language is filled with religious 419 keywords, and anyone can tell in five minutes or less that they have religion on the brain. 420 Most people do not feel the need to raise the question of religion in ordinary conversation, and they do not. 421 While the example of the airport-type-Moonies may be a bit exaggerated, this type of devotion is not unusual. 422 You could mistake my previous example as an incidence of guilt-by-association argument, but it is not. Most 423 churchgoers seem to be reasonably well adjusted people, who can control themselves. 424 425 Excess in anything should be criticized, but organized religions seem to be so happy to get such devoted people that 426 they conveniently ignore their seemingly mindedless devotion and exasperating peristence. To be perfectly honest, 427 evangelicals tend to be detested by mainstream religion, but only because the evangelicals seem to imply that since they 428 pray harder, they are better people. 429 430 Let's hear some comments. Have you ever met a person who seems to have religion on the brain, who cannot speak 431 for five minutes without using the words 'bless' or 'pray' etc,. If you have, you will know it. If you haven't, count 432 yourself lucky. 433 )()()()()()()()()()()()()()()))))()()()()()()()()()()()()()()Anon()()()()()()()()()( 434 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 435 OUTSIDE, BESIDE MY DOOR IS A SIGN THAT SIMPLY STATES "NO SOLICITING". YOU WOULD THINK THAT ANY ONE WHO IS ABLE TO READ 436 THE BIBLE COULD READ AND UBDERSTAND THAT SIMPLE PHRASE. BUT NO SUCH LUCK! ALMOST WEEKLY THERE IS SOME, BIBLE IN HAND, IDIOT 437 TRYING TO CONVERT ME TO HIS/HER WAY OF THOUGHT. THEN THERE IS ALSO MY MAILBOX THAT GETS ABUSED BY THESE SAME IDIOTS. 438 IT ALREADY COST ME A BUNDLE FOR GARBAGE REMOVAL BUT I STILL HAVE TO PAY TO HAVE THIS JUNK CARRIED AWAY, I DON'T HAVE A 439 FIREPLACE OR WOOD STOVE TO BURN IT IN, PERHAPS IF I DID I MIGHT WELCOME THE FLYERS AND TRACTS THAT FIND THERE WAY TO ME. AFTER 440 ALL AT LEAST THEY COULD BE PUT TO USE BY KEEPING ME WARM. SINCE, HOWEVER THEY CAN'T, I DO WISH THE DO-GOODERS OF THIS WORLD 441 WOULD LEARN TO READ AND SAVE THEIR POSTAGE. 442 THANK YOU ALL VERY MUCH: 443 444 ++++++++++++++P.O.ED++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 445 Wow! This is a wWEIRD BBS. I've been a computer hobbyist for about 8 446 years, but I just got my firstmodem yesterday (A Novation J-Cat: 447 Auto Dial/Answer for $115 -- I highly recommend it) and so I've been 448 just kind of dialing around examining the BBS'Ss of Portland. Is there 449 a way, may I ask, to sort the religious discussion from the rest of the 450 file. ? Or is that the whole point of the bulletin board? I sure am 451 impressed, though, that someone has been generous enough to devote the 452 resources for an undertaking of this magnitude. Anyone else out there 453 own a IBM-PC? 455 Bart Massey (bart @ REED) 456 457 458 ---------------------------------------------------- 459 460 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~ 461 462 Mikey: No contest. 463 464 d: I will be patiently awaiting your evidence. 465 466 Bart: I believe the adjective I used the first time on BWMS was also "wierd". 467 Now that I am a participant I prefer the word "unique". BWMS may not be 468 terribly practical, but as an amusement it more than suffices. 469 There is no ability to sort on BWMS (at least if there is, it is kept 470 secret). I'm not sure if you wanted to locate or to avoid religious dis- 471 cussions. You can find specific keywords by typing NU Y on one line 472 following the > prompt (which causes line numbers to be displayed) then 473 typing on next line FA keyword . 474 So for example, if you wanted to find religious discussions, you might type: 475 476 >NU Y 477 >FA God 478 479 then the system would return all lines including "God" as follows: 480 481 201-BLAH..BLAH..BLAH..God..BLAH..... 482 232-God..BLAH..BLAH............ 483 484 To begin printing everything after line 201, type: 485 486 LN 201 487 NU N 488 PRINT 489 490 Wierdness has its place. Try it. 491 492 Leonard: You are absolutely right! 493 (Caught you of guard , didn't I?) 494 I am refferring to your statement that it is often necessary and/or beneficial 495 to consult authorities. I have never contested this; I only meant to suggest 496 that 1) Some people apply logic to relate the new information with that 497 which they have already assimilated in order to ascertain whether or not that 498 source of info is indeed a valid authority on the particular subject, 499 while others blindly accept the new information, assuming that the authority 500 is valid because it proclaimed itself so and that authorities are incapable 501 of error or deception. 502 2) Some fail to discern whether the subject is appropriate to the particular 503 authority. For example, it would be inappropriate to consult an anatomy 504 book for information on Japanese constitutional law. Yet you are 505 consulting a collection of history books, novels and diaries for in- 506 formation regarding cosmography. 507 The subject of discussion was not Christian doctrine; it was the validity 508 of that doctrine. A physics experiment is an observation of reality, 509 not of someones concept of reality; also "authority" implies intellegence 510 which when imputed to the universe, presupposes the existence of a deity, 511 which is the very point we are disputing. Who was it that spoke of 512 circular arguments?????? 513 Surely you can see that stating "The exstence of God cannot be proven 514 because there is no evidence!" in no way whatsoever implies that something 515 CAN be proven by the lack of evidence. 516 It was sufficient to inform me that you 517 lack proficiency in proofs (and elementary logic); I did not require 518 a demonstration! 519 Let's avoid any further blatent disregard for the rules of logic! 520 521 Dirty Ol' Man 522 523 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~ 524 525 PS to all ergonomics enthusiasts: 526 In case you're interested, PSU will be offering class on above subject 527 next (winter) term. Perception is a recommended prerequisite (and is 528 offerred this term), but I don't think it is required. These courses are 529 offerred by psychology dept. 530 531 Dirty 532 533 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~ 534 535 As to the question about logic vs learning, comments in the scientific 536 circles debating the w!y humans learn circle around the same process 537 we called scientific method: see a phenomenon, propose a theory about why 538 it happened and test the theory. Bad logic may lead to a theory, in fact 539 it is proposed creativity is only ramdomness. Then test it against other 540 observations. The truth is whatever doesn't conflict. we all carry out 541 this invent and test procedure apparantly. However, the idea of inventing 542 wrong theories is critcised by some as impeding teaching. Somehow I don't 543 think we will ever all agree on one right way, since I suspect there is 544 more than one way. 545 ////////////////////////////////////////BAD\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ 546 DOM: sorry, I do see what you mean. What I should have said was 547 that lack of evidence is NOT the same as unprovability. The 548 person in question also missed the rather subtle distinction 549 between "can be proven" & "may be proven". 550 As I said, I'm out of practice (about 10 years worth of 551 out of practice!). 552 To: Whom it may concern (sorry) There is a "good" reason for 553 giving religions tax-exempt status. Loosely stated, "the power 554 to tax is the power to control". Or, if the IRS doesn't like 555 your church -- BOY ARE YOU GONNA GET IT! 556 Note however, that I feel that in many cases this 557 privilege is being abused. Somehow, I find it hard to justify 558 a tax-exempt status for an apartment complex run by the church. 559 But as long as they aren't GETTING money from the government, 560 I can live with it. Once you start trying to say this should be 561 exempt & this shouldn't, you're right back where we started. 562 563 To: d 564 Thank you, I am using a method practiced by the late 565 John W. Campbell. One of his favorite pastimes was getting you 566 to express a definite stand on a subject (it didn't matter 567 what the stand WAS). He would then do his best to come up with 568 a "logical, reasonable, etc" argument for the exact opposite! 569 The results (see most of his editorials) were (to quote Mr. 570 Spock) "Fascinating". The main purpose was to FORCE you to 571 THINK. 572 Most people seem to think that if you have heard "both 573 sides" in an argument, that you have all the info. People also 574 think that one of the sides must be "right" (after all, right 575 & wrong are the only choices aren't they?). The only exception 576 to this "two-valued" "logic" is the saying: Two wrongs don't 577 make a right. Unfortunately, most of us seem to operate on the 578 exact opposite. I trust everyone can see why I mention this, 579 consider several recent topics of debate (to say nothing of the 580 current topic). If not, I MAY attempt to explain. 581 _________________________Leonard_______________________________ 582 583 584 585 586 HARI KRISHNA, HARI KRIAISHNA, HARI KRISHNA, HARI............ETC 587 588 Actually, the right NOT to be taxed is also the power to control. Those that 589 aren't taxed but still can use tax-supported services (sewers, fire and 590 police protection, etc.) can gain power out of all proportion to their numbers 591 or riches. If you find that hard to believe, check the Washington County board 592 of records to find out who is the largest single landowner in the county. 593 You'll find out that it's the Catholic church, and that the average 594 individual taxpayer pays more taxes than the entire church organization does. 595 Perhaps they shouldn't be taxed, but something must be done to divert the power 596 that can be gained by tax-exempt status. 597 \\\\\\\\\\\Barf the Barbarian/////////// 598 599 *****************j*************************************************** 600 On Friday and Saturday (Sept 30 and Oct 1) C&L Terminals will be 601 having a garage sale from 9 AM until 3 PM each day. 602 Items include used computer terminals and modems as well as 603 used office furniture. 604 The address is SE Ivon (1 block south of Division on 12th) 605 Phone: 231-xxxx 606 607 *****.***********************************.********j*****j*.:********* 608 **** 609 **** 610 **** 611 **** 612 **** 613 **** 614 **** 615 **** 616 **** 617 **** 618 **** 619 **** 620 **** 621 **** 622 **** 623 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 624 HEY MIKEY - I BET IF I GO AWAY FOR A HALF HOUR YOU'LL CHANGE THE DISK 625 READY TO PURSUE THESE CONVERGING DEBATES AT LENGTH AFTER THAT. NEED SPACE 626 TO SHOOT OFF MOUTH 627 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!HROTHGAR, THE TAOIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 628 T.G. AND E.D WAS HERE 629 KEEP ON TRUCKIN