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Conspiracy Nation -- Vol. 7 Num. 70
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("Quid coniuratio est?")
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OKC BOMBING(S) + 1 YEAR
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Anguish In Oklahoma City
CN Interview With Tony F. Sgarlatti
CONSPIRACY NATION: What is your background, expertise, regarding
the bombing in Oklahoma City?
TONY SGARLATTI: I've produced and directed over 400 cable
television productions, including a half hour video in May of
1995 entitled "Anguish in Oklahoma City", where I took some of
the raw footage from the first hours of the bombing on April 19th
up to the implosion on May 23rd and show people the version of
the bombing that was seen by an unprepared press. I'm also
involved with a local group which provides updates on various
happenings around the country that you won't read about in the
major media. At those meetings, they share personal experience
plus published material from sources such as The McAlavany
Intelligence Advisor, Flash Point, Contact!, The Bob Livingston
Letter, Youth Action News, Media Bypass magazine, and others that
give you the scoop on major events that you'll never see
elsewhere. Being in the cable television production business
I've also become acquainted with people who have investigated the
bombing first-hand and have reported their findings. I'm also on
the Internet, both as a presence to describe an "Oklahoma City
Fact Pac" I offer, and as an investigator subscribed to several
mail lists which get various bits of information about the
bombing.
CONSPIRACY NATION: What makes your ideas, your information,
worth paying attention to?
TONY SGARLATTI: I consider myself a level-headed individual,
having spent over 16 years as an engineer, so I think in a
logical manner. And, I'm a credible person having a managerial
position outside of my cable production duties and have obtained
two masters degrees.
I love my country, and am saddened by what I see happening --
how our country is turning into some kind of gestapo run by
jack-booted thugs supported by the Anti-Terrorism Bill,
Communications Decency Act, anti-firearm provisions of House and
Senate bills -- and want to see this downward spiral reversed.
CONSPIRACY NATION: How involved in the bombing was Timothy
McVeigh? Was he just a patsy? Is he totally innocent?
TONY SGARLATTI: I think, from reports I've heard, that he was
driving the truck supposedly containing the fertilizer bomb.
There's other people that say he wasn't even at the scene, but
miles away.
His attorney, Stephen Jones, speaking at the University of
Oklahoma at Norman on November 16, 1995 said: "When you know
everything I do -- and you will -- you will never think of the
American government in the same way again." What does his
attorney know that he is not talking about yet?
What most of the American public doesn't know is that McVeigh
was a hero in the Gulf War. His division did so well in that war
that they were assigned the duty of guarding the inside perimeter
of a captured Iraqi airstrip when Norman Schwarzkopf was
visiting. After the war, McVeigh was in Fort Bragg where he got
washed out. His goal was always to be in Special Forces, and
during a mysterious counseling-testing session prior to his
aborted attempt to enter the Special Forces, his associates
reported that he seemed a bit different than he'd been before...
that he wasn't the same McVeigh. McVeigh told friends that while
he was in the service, the Army had placed a computer chip in his
buttocks to keep track of him. Reports of McVeigh's arrest, a
short time after the bombing, indicated a zombie-like
personality, who demonstrated little of the common sense and
brains described in his military record. After he was arrested,
one of the few things McVeigh spoke about was to complain about
the continuing pain from his implant. He may have been involved
in some type of psy-op mind control programming. His sister
reportedly has a letter from him that says he was a government
agent. It's not known if he was washed out of Fort Bragg on
purpose, or became disgruntled, but then became recruited by the
neo-Nazis. He was a patsy and had some knowledge of the bomb --
but not knowing the full impact of the explosion or if the truck
was meant to explode at all. For all we know, he may have
believed he was only making a delivery. I believe that McVeigh
was told that he was doing a job for the greater good of the
American people, and not to worry how it turns out because the
government will take care of him even if it gets to the point of
execution; that they will find a way to rescue him, give him a
new identity and have him live like a king in South America or
somewhere.
CONSPIRACY NATION: Will McVeigh get a fair and open trial? Or
will the trial be more or less secret, as with the Branch
Davidian trial? (Their trial received little media attention,
compared for example to the O.J. Simpson trial.)
TONY SGARLATTI: I think given the attention that this tragedy
has had, and the amount of suffering experienced by the survivors
and families of the victims, that the American public will demand
that it receives more media attention than the Branch Davidian
trial. At least that is my hope. The Branch Davidians, you may
recall, were totally demonized by the media. The general public
would have probably protested major media coverage of that trial.
It may not receive the same amount of attention ahe O.J. Simpson
trial, mainly because we're talking about a person being
represented by a public defender, not by million dollar
highly-acclaimed defense attorneys.
CONSPIRACY NATION: How can McVeigh possibly get a fair trial?
If he gets a fair trial, he would be found "not guilty" -- after
all, no "fertilizer bomb" could have destroyed the Murrah
Building. So they (the government, say) must have McVeigh found
guilty. Right?
TONY SGARLATTI: To understand the "justice" system (and I put
justice in quotes, and use that term very loosely when describing
fairness), you have to understand how the court process works.
Let's use the O.J. Simpson trial as an example. The defense team
spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on jury selection and
other experts to get as much of an edge on the trial as possible.
I suspect the prosecution is already doing much the same to
ensure they have the upper hand before the trial even starts.
Tim McVeigh and Terry Nichols will not have access to such
expertise and so will be at a disadvantage. I think that if a
jury were to truly weigh the facts in the case, and the defense
team has done their homework, they would have to come up with the
fact that a Ryder truck carrying a fertilizer bomb did not blow
up the building, hence reasonable doubt would enter the picture
and an acquital is the logical result.
CONSPIRACY NATION: Was this an explosion, an implosion, or what?
Doesn't the debris suggest an explosion from inside the building?
TONY SGARLATTI: The most damaging evidence is what was reported
over the local news and CNN [Cable News Network] the first day of
the bombing. Here you had a bunch of reporters running around
interviewing victims of the blast and people that were rescued,
who spoke to the news about what they observed had happened. One
person in particular was on the fifth floor (and by the way, this
interview opens the video I made, "Anguish in Oklahoma City")...
He says (and I quote), "I thought it was an earthquake because I
resided in California for many years, and it was almost like it
was in slow motion. I felt a shake, and then it began shaking
more, and I dove under my desk and then the glass all came in --
and I think that's what saved me." If it were just one
explosion, then how would victims have had the time to jump under
their desks and protect themselves from falling ceiling and
flying debris? The waterworks building across the street is two
stories tall, and there was debris found on top of the building
-- to suggest that debris came from the inside of the building,
as does other debris found around the building facing toward the
street, not away from the truck.
In mid-May of 1995, retired Brigadier General Benton K.
Partin, an explosives expert, wrote a letter to Oklahoma Senator
Donald Nickles stating that "the damage pattern on the reinforced
concrete superstructure could not possibly have been attained
from the single truck bomb without supplementing demolition
charges at some of the reinforced column bases. The total
incompatibility with a single truck bomb lies in the fact that
either some of the columns collapsed that should not have
collapsed or some of the columns are still standing that should
have collapsed and did not."
Let's assume for a moment that we have a Ryder truck filled
with 4800 pounds of ammonium nitrate ["fertilizer bomb"]. At the
point of detonation this would yield an explosive force of
approximately 300,000 lbs./sq. in. -- that's also assuming that
all of the barrels ignite and explode simultaneously, which is
unlikely to be accomplished by amateur bomb builders. As a side
note, the ammonium and diesel fuel have to be mixed, and the trip
they made to the building would have unsettled the mixture and it
likely wouldn't have blown up at all. Now -- an ammonium nitrate
bomb is a slow burning explosive that is meant to be used like in
mines, where it is tightly compacted and put down holes. In open
air, the pressure of the blast drops off inversely as a function
of the distance cubed. In other words, by the time the blast
reached the first column that fell, the pressure is already down
from 300,000 lbs./sq. in. to only 375 lbs./sq. in., and the
column in the second row which is a part of the major blast area
only has a pressure of approximately 27 lbs./sq. in.
Do you happen to know what the yield strength of the
reinforced concrete pillar is? (The yield strength would be the
pressure that it would take to collapse it.) 3,500 lbs./sq. in.
It's absurd to believe that one of these large reinforced
concrete columns would have been brought down by 25 to 35 lbs. of
pressure, or even 375 lbs. for that matter.
There's also recent news on the Internet from Strategic
Investment, and they report
A classified Pentagon study determines Oklahoma bombing
was caused by more than one bomb. A classified report
prepared by two independent Pentagon experts has concluded
that the destruction of the federal building in Oklahoma
City last April was caused by five separate bombs. The
two experts reached the same conclusion for the same
technical reasons. Sources close to the Pentagon study
say Timothy McVeigh did play a role in the bombing but
peripherally, as a "useful idiot." The multiple bombings
have a Middle Eastern "signature," pointing to either
Iraqi or Syrian involvement.
-- Strategic Investment, March 20, 1996
CONSPIRACY NATION: You have said that the crater in front of the
Murrah Building is to the right of the major blast area. What
makes you say that? How has this been covered up?
TONY SGARLATTI: Logic would lead one to conclude that the crater
from the explosion from outside the building would be directly in
front of the major blast area, which would be the third column
from the left. This is the only spot where two columns were
taken out and the damage was so severe that there is a hole
completely through the building. In his letter to Senator
Nickles, [Brigadier General] Ben Partin draws his sketch and
makes his conclusions based on that erroneous data. He later
revised his drawing as shown in the August 7, 1995 issue of the
New American magazine, and correctly shows the bomb crater to the
right of the major blast area by over an entire column.
If you were to look at an early Associated Press photograph,
you will see a deceiving angle of the building, shot from a
helicopter, that shows the crater directly in front of the major
blast area. However, a birds eye view of the building or a front
shot of the building clearly shows the crater is not in front of
the major blast area but 20 to 30 feet to the right.
CONSPIRACY NATION: You have also said that the FBI confiscated
security camera tapes that showed what had happened. Isn't that
just "standard operating procedure"? Or will it be 20 or 30 or
40 years before those tapes are released to the public? What is
your opinion?
TONY SGARLATTI: The defense team will most likely subpoena this
film as evidence for trial. But the question will remain if the
tapes were doctored before being turned over, or if some of the
images will mysteriously be indistinguishable or erased -- as in
other famous cases such as the Watergate tapes of Richard Nixon.
CONSPIRACY NATION: Sherman Skolnick says persons on the rescue
team are suffering from radiation poisoning. Others say it's
cyanide poisoning. What have you heard or do you know regarding
this?
TONY SGARLATTI: I'm in contact with someone on the Internet who
claims to have degrees in chemistry and chemical engineering and
owns an environmental consulting firm. Out of college, he spent
two years in charge of the technical side of an aerospace plating
plant where he worked with half a dozen or so 500-gallon vats of
sodium cyanide and potassium cyanide on a daily basis. He also
designed several treatment facilities for removing cyanide from
wastewater.
He pointed out that cyanide acts quickly and doesn't
accumulate in the system to cause death or sickness later. Also,
the cyanide anion is basically harmless unless inhaled as a gas
(hydrogen cyanide) or ingested and exposed to stomach acids,
which converts it to hydrogen cyanide.
I've heard that it could have been a small yield nuclear bomb
called a SADAM. Such a device would now easily fit in a
grapefruit and deliver a 5 to 10 ton TNT equivalent -- or less,
that is, down to 1 ton TNT. These things easily fit into a 105
mm howitzer shell or a brief case. Karl Granse believes the bomb
was shot from a missile similar to what was done in the movie
"Clear and Present Danger" (Harrison Ford), that there was some
sort of a laser-guided device on the truck, and the missile then
just cut through the truck, and into the reinforced concrete
where it exploded. (Assuming that a mixture of highly refined
Plutonium 239 was used, this would have a relatively low
radioactivity emission on detonation.)
CONSPIRACY NATION: Have you heard, or can you confirm, that one
of the sniffing dogs at the site of the blast has died? Any idea
what killed the dog?
TONY SGARLATTI: The first week of February another person I'm
communicating with on the Internet watched the Westminster Dog
Show live on cable. They had a short documentary segment between
groups focusing in on one of the bomb-sniffing dogs of Oklahoma
City. Since they seemed to show an inordinate amount of still
photos of the dog, this person had an idea that they were going
to talk about its demise. They went on and on about how this
particular dog went "above and beyond its duty" to dig through
the rubble, and so on. They also discussed its earlier work
history, and how it had often saved its human partner's life.
Anyway, sure enough, as the segment was winding up, the announcer
said, "Unfortunately, Rover" (or whatever the dog's name was)
"died of a mysterious illness this past autumn, and now Officer
So-And-So is breaking in a new canine partner to replace Rover."
No mention or speculation of what the "mysterious illness"
was, but I thought it was interesting it was mentioned at all,
and figured it must be a hot topic amongst the dog show crowd.
If anyone knows any AKC breeders, showers, or handlers, might
be worthwhile chatting them up on this topic, see what "rumors"
they've heard.
Since apparently cyanide doesn't accumulate in the body, and
Karl Granse claims it was radiation, I suspect that the dog died
of radiation poisoning. That would be easy to prove by examining
the dog's body for signs of radiation.
CONSPIRACY NATION: What about Debra von Trapp's story on what
happened: can you spot any holes in what she is saying?
TONY SGARLATTI: As I recall, she believes the bombing was a
result of a retaliation of the Japanese for the U.S. allegedly
gassing their subway. I personally find this story a little
far-fetched, but at the same time I'm not discounting anything
until the facts dictate otherwise. Debra von Trapp claims to
have recordings she made of her conversations with persons
without their knowledge, and other evidence to prove what she
claims. One slant to the story could be that these persons
suspected her disloyalty and chose to feed her disinformation to
see if it would eventually come out from her, thus proving that
she was not to be trusted. The easiest way to do that would be
to concoct a story so far-fetched that if the information leaked
out, they would know the one source where this information
originated.
CONSPIRACY NATION: Is the video "Anguish in Oklahoma City" still
available? How can it be ordered?
TONY SGARLATTI: Yes the video is still available. What's unique
about this video is that it is only 29-and-a-half minutes long,
so it can be shown at meetings or schools and not put the
audience to sleep. It's packed with live interviews from the
scene, has photographs to prove points, [includes] the
seismograph from the University of Oklahoma and Kirkpatrick
Center to show there were two bomb blasts, and [has] commentary
of Karl Granse, interviewed by Terry Canady.
I'm not selling the video, but instead, giving it away as a
bonus to what I call my "Oklahoma City Bombing Fact Pak."
The Oklahoma City Bombing Fact Pak has most of the data we
discussed in this interview in print form, including a copy of
the August 11, 1995 issue of the New American magazine special
report which they headline -- Explosive Evidence: Cover-Up In
Oklahoma City; telltale signs of demolition charges inside the
building. The magazine is packed with color photographs, Ben
Partin's analysis of the explosion and the analysis of the
seismograph reading from both the April 19th blast and May 23rd
implosion. I'm also enclosing copies of several newspaper
articles, and newsletters devoted to the bombing, plus over 70
pages of material I culled from the Internet that relates to the
bombing. It's available for a suggested donation of $19.95 which
includes priority mail shipping, and of course I throw in the
video free.
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Personal checks or money orders only. Send $19.95 to Tony
Sgarlatti, PO Box 323, Hopkins, Minnesota 55343-0323. Ask for
"OKC Bombing Fact Pak" and free video. For further information,
e-mail tonys@the-truth.org or see
http://www.future.net/~thetruth/okc.html
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Aperi os tuum muto, et causis omnium filiorum qui pertranseunt.
Aperi os tuum, decerne quod justum est, et judica inopem et
pauperem. -- Liber Proverbiorum XXXI: 8-9