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#: 21212 S13/Virtual Reality
    08-Nov-91  15:30:58
Sb: Virtual reality
Fm: Matt Drury 75300,1610
To: All

The Virtual Reality section here in the Computer Art Forum has now been opened
for public use. John Eagan [76130,2225] is the section leader.

The goal of this section is to create, much as the fractals group in area 15
have, a virtual reality system that can be used on personal computers that are
readily available. Based on the response I have seen to my public request for
interested people, and the experience that the people who have contacted me
have should make this easily possible.

  Matt Drury
  Graphics Forums Staff




#: 21217 S13/Virtual Reality
    08-Nov-91  17:09:17
Sb: #great timing
Fm: Mike Schoenborn 70010,147
To: Matt Drury 75300,1610 (X)

The timing for opening this section is just great... my PowerGlove and Sega
3D glasses projects are just now starting give results.  This will be great
place to swap notes with others playing (er, working) with the same things.
 
It's going to be tough to figure out exactly where to post messages, though,
when a project involves an Amateur doing a Raytraced 3-D Animation.  (Such
troubles I can live with!)


There are 4 Replies.

#: 21218 S13/Virtual Reality
    08-Nov-91  17:45:38
Sb: #21217-#great timing
Fm: John Eagan 76130,2225
To: Mike Schoenborn 70010,147 (X)

Mike- Post them here! Welcome to the section, your message is the first
"non-official" one in the section! How does it feel to be a pioneer?<g> 
Anything of interest you have, let's see it. The funny thing is, the nature of
the subject here inherently means that a lot of boundaries will be crossed, so
don't pick too many nits about "does it really belong here", especially until
things start taking direction. We can sort that stuff out after some things
are on the table, as it were.

JLE 

There is 1 Reply.

#: 21220 S13/Virtual Reality
    08-Nov-91  18:08:55
Sb: #Welcome!
Fm: John Eagan 76130,2225
To: all

Hello, and welcome to the Virtual Reality section of COMART, our newest
section. I've been drafted as the section head, and hope to be able to help
guide things along as we work on bringing VR to personal computers in the way
FRACTINT and DKB and VIVID have brought fractals and raytracing within the
grasp of people with basic DOS machines. All suggestions are welcome. I've
uploaded a basic introduction to the section as VRINTRO.ZIP / VRINTRO.DOC .
Take a look at it and fire away!
        For a start, it appears that people are working on interfaces for the
Mattel "Power Glove",if you have any source code and/or executable files for
such an interface, or anything else relevant to virtual reality, let's see it.
As things progress we plan to get a work group started somewhat along the same
philosophy as the the now-legendary<g>   "Stone Soup Group.  I propose that we
use C as the standard language for our project (projects?) because of its
popularity, somewhat modular nature, and the fact that I have TurboC++ !
Obviously, for reasons of speed, assembler code will probably be necessary at
some point, but that should work out fine with the assembler routines compiled
into .OBJ files. Myself, I'm a real novice programmer, so if anyone feels up
to the challenge of heading up a project, step right up and announce yourself.
My role will be to act as a coordinator and director,   mostly; in fact, my
hope is to be able to get things rolling to the point where I can sit back and
concentrate on "overview" mode. Hope to hear from all of you. Let's have some
fun in cyberspace!
JLE 

There is 1 Reply.

#: 21222 S13/Virtual Reality
    08-Nov-91  18:24:03
Sb: #21217-#great timing
Fm: Matt Drury 75300,1610
To: Mike Schoenborn 70010,147 (X)

Mike,

I'm glad to hear you will be actively participating here. If you have any
plans, results, images, or other work that you wish to share, please feel free
to upload them to library 2 here and I will copy them to library 14 (as I do
with the other 'group' areas).

I have spoken with John Eagan, the section leader, and he is ready to go. Make
sure to see his overview and introduction currently in the library.


  Matt Drury
  Forum Staff

There is 1 Reply.

#: 21223 S13/Virtual Reality
    08-Nov-91  18:26:00
Sb: #21220-#Welcome!
Fm: Matt Drury 75300,1610
To: John Eagan 76130,2225 (X)

Welcome, John, and good luck. Again, I recommend to anyone interested in VR
the short task of downloading the introduction and overview that you have
created and uploaded to this section's library. It is an excellent treatise on
the VR project here in the Computer Art Forum.

  Matt Drury
  Forum Staff

There is 1 Reply.

#: 21233 S13/Virtual Reality
    09-Nov-91  04:49:29
Sb: #21217-#great timing
Fm: John Swenson 75300,2136
To: Mike Schoenborn 70010,147 (X)

Mike,
speaking of 3D glasses, I take it you are talking about the LCD shutter type?
I would very much like find out about such things (like how much they cost,
where do I get them, how they hook up to a PC, how I talk to them etc). What
I really want to do is write an interface for them into fractint, the 3D
stuff in fractint fascinates me, but I just can't see the 3D effect from
red/blue images, other approaches work great though (such as polarization).
 
John S.
       

There are 2 Replies.

#: 21263 S13/Virtual Reality
    09-Nov-91  18:44:58
Sb: #21233-great timing
Fm: John Eagan/VR 76130,2225
To: John Swenson 75300,2136 (X)

John- That sounds great. Maybe you and Mike can get together and work on a 3d
glasses interface and get us started with software. something like that, in
conjunction with animated fractals, would certainly be a good start. I'm
curious about what Mike is doing, myself.

JLE-VR section 

#: 21264 S13/Virtual Reality
    09-Nov-91  18:45:09
Sb: #21217-great timing
Fm: John Eagan/VR 76130,2225
To: Mike Schoenborn 70010,147 (X)

Mike- Additional- I'm particularly interested in hearing about the 3D glasses
project! Can you give us some more details?

JLE-VR section 

#: 21265 S13/Virtual Reality
    09-Nov-91  18:59:35
Sb: #conferences
Fm: John Eagan/VR 76130,2225
To: all

To everyone- I would like to get conferences going soon in room 13-Virtual
Reality. Let me know what you think about an appropriate time and day for such
a conference, to be held weekly. The paint is dry now<g>, let's move in.

JLE-VR section 

There is 1 Reply.

#: 21278 S13/Virtual Reality
    10-Nov-91  02:40:36
Sb: #21218-#great timing
Fm: Mike Schoenborn 70010,147
To: John Eagan 76130,2225 (X)

First non-official message, eh?  It was quite by accident, actually.  I was
poking around in the libs and couldn't remember where to find 3D images.
When I asked for the section names I saw "Virtual Reality" listed, and
cursed myself for not paying more attention to the Forum Announcements and
missing out on all the fun.
 
Come to think of it, I believe I had the dubious honor of posting the first
message in the Raytrace Forum.  I'm pretty sure this is a good indication I
spend *way* too much time on CIS.
       

There is 1 Reply.

#: 21279 S13/Virtual Reality
    10-Nov-91  02:40:40
Sb: #21222-#great timing
Fm: Mike Schoenborn 70010,147
To: Matt Drury 75300,1610 (X)

I'm sure I'll have some hardware interface schematic GIFs to upload as time
goes on.  What is the prefered KEYword to use to indicate the file's final
resting place should be here in 13?  "VIRTUAL REALITY" is pretty long, maybe
just "VR"?
       

There are 2 Replies.

#: 21280 S13/Virtual Reality
    10-Nov-91  02:40:48
Sb: #21233-#great timing
Fm: Mike Schoenborn 70010,147
To: John Swenson 75300,2136 (X)

John & John -
 
The 3D glasses are indeed LCD shutters, sold by Sega to go with their video
game system.  You can't find them in the stores anymore, but you can order
them direct from Sega (800-872-7342) for $35 (+ about $2 S&H).  Delivery is
quoted at 4-6 weeks, but I got mine in about 2.  VISA cheerfully accepted.
 
There was a schematic for driving the glasses posted on UseNet back in Jan of
1990.  (I've been wanting to do this for a -long- time).  The design was for
interfacing with the Mac serial port, but with some minor mods it seems to
work just dandy off a PC parallel port.  If you have some CMOS in your junkbox,
wirewrap tools in your toolbox, and know which end of a soldering iron to hold,
you're all set.  I would have uploaded the schematic already, but I'll have to
dig through the accompanying docs for copyright notices, etc.
 
The cord from the glasses terminates in a 1/8" stereo plug, which plugs into a
little "interface block", which plugs into the game (I assume, I've never seen
the game unit).  The schematic was for interfacing via the plug, and made no
mention of this block thing.  To save a trip to Radio Shack I was going to
scavenge the 1/8" jack off the block, but when I opened it up I found a little
circuit board inside.  The numbers on the chips lead me to believe that this
itself is the required interface, and the circuit I had just painstakingly
assembled was redundant.  The block is just crying to be reverse engineered;
anybody up for it?
 
For software, it's just a matter of doing "page flipping" and tickling bits
on the parallel port.  Yes indeed, 3D FractInt creations, and raytraces,
look -great- in color.
       

There are 3 Replies.

#: 21281 S13/Virtual Reality
    10-Nov-91  02:40:51
Sb: #21265-#conferences
Fm: Mike Schoenborn 70010,147
To: John Eagan/VR 76130,2225 (X)

Hmmm...
Mon=Raytrace, Tue=sysop?,  Wed=Amateur's,  Thu=Beginner's,  Fri=Nah!,  Sat=Nah!,
Sun=VR???
       

There is 1 Reply.

#: 21293 S13/Virtual Reality
    10-Nov-91  12:19:53
Sb: #21279-great timing
Fm: Matt Drury 75300,1610
To: Mike Schoenborn 70010,147 (X)

Mike,

Let's use VR for now; please upload to area 2 and I will copy files to 13.

  Matt Drury
  Forum Staff

#: 21297 S13/Virtual Reality
    10-Nov-91  14:58:47
Sb: #21278-great timing
Fm: John Eagan/VR 76130,2225
To: Mike Schoenborn 70010,147 (X)

No doubt. One of my interests is in auto racing (after music,computers and
computer graphics), and over in the RACING forum, somebody compiled a list of
message volume for Oct.,and I was 11th!!  3 of the guys above me were sysops,
and first place was ALL<g>! So, yeah,I can relate to that. 

#: 21298 S13/Virtual Reality
    10-Nov-91  14:58:58
Sb: #21280-#great timing
Fm: John Eagan/VR 76130,2225
To: Mike Schoenborn 70010,147 (X)

Mike- Great! I didn't know about these, that's just what we need. You can't
get them in stores anywhere? That's a shame. Are these color,do I understand
correctly?    I have,in my hot little hands, C source code for a Mattel
Powerglove interface, courtesy of Chris Babcock. I plan to upload it, once I'm
sure about copyright and all (it's a little vague,  although Chris says it's
OK, I'm guessing he has had contact. It also could use a couple of
modifications, but Chris also tells me there is updated code on the way. I
want ot compile and upload it as an executable,along with the source. The
glove hardware interface uses RS-232. It looks like we have a good start! Once
we get all the hardware info in the lib here, we can dive into getting it all
integrated. Then we can work on some software for the thing.  Any ideas in
particular about what we should actually DO with it,  once we get the hardware
working?  Another thing about the hardware.  It looks as if maybe,to integrate
the glove and glasses interfaces,  we might want to work on a design for a
card to plug in an expansion slot with connections for the glove and glasses.
We'll have to discuss that. I just got a copy of TurboCAD, so I can help lay
out a board, rather than messing with wire-wrap (ARG!). Not that laying out a
board is EASY, but for everyone else, it would be a little easier for everyone
else if there was a way to get a board made from available artwork.
JLE-VRsection 

There is 1 Reply.

#: 21299 S13/Virtual Reality
    10-Nov-91  14:59:04
Sb: #21281-conferences
Fm: John Eagan/VR 76130,2225
To: Mike Schoenborn 70010,147 (X)

Sunday sounds reasonable to me. Anybody else have an opinion on this?

JLE-VRsection 

#: 21302 S13/Virtual Reality
    10-Nov-91  15:17:10
Sb: #21279-#great timing
Fm: Bill Hinkle 75300,2050
To: Mike Schoenborn 70010,147 (X)

Maybe you should declare an Application Extension block for your schematic
GIFs -- one that means: HPGL plotter version follows!  Assuming that your
source for the schematics is a vector draw/CAD package, that is...  A
plottable version would be nicer than a bitmapped version, for many folks, and
wouldn't add much to the size of the GIF, I'll bet! <<Bill>>



There are 2 Replies.

#: 21310 S13/Virtual Reality
    10-Nov-91  19:28:57
Sb: #21302-#great timing
Fm: Mike Schoenborn 70010,147
To: Bil Hinkle 75300,2050 (X)

I think I have the original schematic in a couple of different formats; GIF
and PostScript for sure, maybe HPGL, and some stuff hidden in Mac .sit files
that I can't get to.  As simple as the schematic is, it could probably be done
in ascii with pluses, dashes, and vertical bars!  (Come to think of it, there
is an alternate design using just an XOR and a 2N2222 transistor that was
distributed just that way).
       

There are 2 Replies.

#: 21317 S13/Virtual Reality
    10-Nov-91  23:01:03
Sb: #21310-great timing
Fm: Bill Hinkle 75300,2050
To: Mike Schoenborn 70010,147 (X)

<grin> I guess I had the idea there was a little more to the electronics! GIF
ought to do the trick for something so simple.  <<Bill>>



#: 21320 S13/Virtual Reality
    10-Nov-91  23:19:32
Sb: #21280-#great timing
Fm: John Eagan/VR 76130,2225
To: Mike Schoenborn 70010,147 (X)

PS- Just out of curiosity, what exactly was at the other end of this block?

JLE 

There is 1 Reply.

#: 21321 S13/Virtual Reality
    10-Nov-91  23:19:38
Sb: #21310-#great timing
Fm: John Eagan/VR 76130,2225
To: Mike Schoenborn 70010,147 (X)

As I just mentioned to Bill, I can now handle vector files, so myself,  if you
could U.L. things in .DXF form, that would be cool.  The more I think about
it, the more I like the idea of an expansion slot board with a glasses and
glove interface. Of course, then we're talking about getting this stuff to
talk directly to the buss,  instead of parallel port and serial port. In the
case of the RS-232 interface used in the glove code I have from Chris, my
problem is I only have COM1 and COM2,  I'd have to disconnect the mouse, or
have the glove fight with the internal modem. Tell me more about what you know
about the glasses and interface. Is there any conflict with the video board?
How do you handle this? Can the 2 operate simultaniously?

JLE 

There is 1 Reply.

#: 21322 S13/Virtual Reality
    10-Nov-91  23:19:52
Sb: #21302-#great timing
Fm: John Eagan/VR 76130,2225
To: Bill Hinkle 75300,2050 (X)

Bill- I think a .DXF version would be very nice. I don't know all the details
of the process, but I do know that it's possible to get PCB artwork made from
.DXF vector/AutoCAD files. Good luck getting boards made from GIFs!<g> Of
course, I'm talking about board layouts,  whereas you guys are talking about
the schematic, but I'm looking at both right now, I'd really like to be able
to get a proper printed circuit made; I dread the idea of wire-wrapping a
board! I work at an electronics manufacturer during the day, I'll have to talk
to the guys who do board layout and see if I can get things plotted during
"off" time. I just got a copy of TurboCad ($40,how could I pass it up!!??) so
I can now handle such files. Timing is everything,eh? <g>
JLE 

There is 1 Reply.

#: 21324 S13/Virtual Reality
    10-Nov-91  23:22:49
Sb: #21298-#great timing
Fm: Mike Schoenborn 70010,147
To: John Eagan/VR 76130,2225 (X)

> Are these color, do I understand correctly?
 
They're just electronic sunglasses, where each lens can be made clear or opaque,
quickly, in sync with an image on a crt.  Any color you see comes through the
lenses from the monitor, not from the glasses themselves.
 
I have been having some problems with the C source for the PowerGlove; my
results are just not as good as what Chris is reporting.  My feeling has
been that the low-level interface to the glove should be done with a simple
cpu, as you suggest, to take some of the load off the pc.  With this thought
in mind, I showed the glove to a friend who programs 8031's for living (simple,
cheap, single chip computers).  He was impressed, and went out the next day
and bought a glove for himself.  I next showed the thing to another buddy who
does circuit board layouts for a living; he bought one too.  I just may turn
my complete attention to the glasses and sit back and see what these two guys
come up with.
 
Tom Sawyer
VP, Fence Painting Div.
       

There is 1 Reply.

#: 21325 S13/Virtual Reality
    11-Nov-91  00:49:07
Sb: #21324-#great timing
Fm: John Eagan/VR 76130,2225
To: Mike Schoenborn 70010,147 (X)

Mike- You shouldn't have done that! It's too much fun, next they'll want to do
it for you! <GGG>

ps- I'm somewhat familiar with the 8031, we use it on the system I work on at
the day job, working on Surface Acoustic Wave touchscreens. It handles all the
touch stuff in the AC plasma display it's installed in.  Maybe that's the
ticket (especially if your friend programs them for a living). Keep it up,
Tom. Let us know when they get near the end of the fence!
JLE 

There is 1 Reply.

#: 21327 S13/Virtual Reality
    11-Nov-91  04:09:42
Sb: #21280-#great timing
Fm: John Swenson 75300,2136
To: Mike Schoenborn 70010,147 (X)

You're kidding, $35!! For some reason I thought they cost MONEY. (at that
price I might just get 2)
 
I think I would hook mine up to a PC game port, since I have one on my system
that I don't use for anything. (I don't have any free slots to put an extra
parallel port on, although I could get one of those parallel port selector
switches. (they cost more than the glasses <g>)
 
I'll give them a call tomorrow morning and start the ball rolling. (Is that
an animated raytraced ball in 3D?)
 
I could put together a nice little viewer that displays TARGA files in 640 x
400 x 32k mode in 3D, that would be nifty.
 
(And people think I spend too much time in front of the computer already,
they'll never see me again!)
 
John S.
 

There are 2 Replies.

#: 21333 S13/Virtual Reality
    11-Nov-91  05:54:31
Sb: #21325-#great timing
Fm: John Swenson 75300,2136
To: John Eagan/VR 76130,2225 (X)

John,
for a living I design custom chips, we even have an 8031 cell in the library
<g>. For around $20,000 I could do a custom chip that does EVERYTHING, the
board would have one chip on it. While we're at it, how about a high
performance raytrace engine? A JPEG decoding engine? (I have to fill up the
chip with SOMETHING <g>).
 
John S.
       

There is 1 Reply.

#: 21340 S13/Virtual Reality
    11-Nov-91  11:20:53
Sb: #21327-#great timing
Fm: Tim Wegner 71320,675
To: John Swenson 75300,2136 (X)

I'm really interested in the $35 3D glasses - if anyone gets it running I want
to hear. I assume to support it in fractint we would need a paged video mode.
Those are in short supply at 256 colors, but the tweaked 320x400 mode is a
good candidate. I wonder if the page flipping is fast enough for the 3D
glasses.

There are 2 Replies.

#: 21345 S13/Virtual Reality
    11-Nov-91  12:24:13
Sb: InterNet
Fm: Matt Drury 75300,1610
To: All

VR people,

I am in contact with the co-moderator of the InterNet SCI.VIRTUAL-WORLDS
newsgroup. I am hoping that we can cross-connect the people here with the
hundred or so VR people there, and work on exchanging information and
assistance.

  Matt Drury
  Forum Staff




#: 21346 S13/Virtual Reality
    11-Nov-91  12:45:00
Sb: #21223-#Welcome!
Fm: John Egenes 76427,3172
To: Matt Drury 75300,1610 (X)

Matt, (and John)
       Best wishes on this new section. Although not a programmer, I am very
much interested in what VR may have to offer. This sounds like it could be one
of the most exciting forums on CIS. BTW, John, do I see you over on the Midi
forum, too?

jre




There are 2 Replies.

#: 21348 S13/Virtual Reality
    11-Nov-91  13:26:45
Sb: #21321-#great timing
Fm: Mike Schoenborn 70010,147
To: John Eagan/VR 76130,2225 (X)

One of the problems with going to an expansion slot card is that it would be
useful only to those with IBM machines, whereas going with RS232 would open
things up to all sorts of folks.  The headache of trying to decide which
COM port to use could be helped by a cheap A-B switchbox.
 
Another concern I have is how to design a slot card that won't bump into other
things, like com ports, parallel ports, video cards, lan cards, music boards,
John's raytrace accelerator board <g>, etc.  It seems like it would take a lot
of research to find safe, unused io ports or memory areas that wouldn't cause
a conflict.  Maybe someone with some pc hardware savvy could dispel my fears
on this.
 
Just playin' devil's advocate.
       

There is 1 Reply.

#: 21349 S13/Virtual Reality
    11-Nov-91  13:26:51
Sb: #21320-great timing
Fm: Mike Schoenborn 70010,147
To: John Eagan/VR 76130,2225 (X)

The back side of the block has a piece of circuit board sticking out a couple
of inches.  The board is 2" wide, with 2 rows of gold plated card edge fingers
on the end, .1" centers, staggard.  17 contacts on the inside row, 18 on the
outside.
             |   v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v  |
             |  v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v |
             +--------------------------------------+
 
BTW, the original circuit design, by Juri Menkki, includes a copyright, so
I've sent him email requesting permission to post it.  Hopefully the address
I have for him is current, and the connection to Finland will work.  I'll let
you know as soon as I hear back from him.
       

#: 21350 S13/Virtual Reality
    11-Nov-91  13:26:58
Sb: #21327-#great timing
Fm: Mike Schoenborn 70010,147
To: John Swenson 75300,2136 (X)

Keep in mind these aren't something you'd find in use at JPL; you get what you
pay for.  Even when the lenses are clear they're as dark as sunglasses.  This
may be by design, to cut contrast for reducing flicker.  I'm tempted to
disect them to remove the LCDs and trash the dark plastic, but the plastic
itself might be polarized and part of the whole scheme of things.  In the mean
time I just keep the monitor's brightness pegged, and the room lights off.
 
Beyond that, they're not terribly comfortable, and look pretty ridiculous when
worn by an adult (though not as strange as R/B glasses, or for that matter, a
Power Glove).  But as you say, for $35, get two.  I'm thinking of getting a
second pair...watching the screen flicker two images back and forth while
someone else has the glasses on really does cause headaches.
       

There is 1 Reply.

#: 21351 S13/Virtual Reality
    11-Nov-91  13:27:05
Sb: #21340-#great timing
Fm: Mike Schoenborn 70010,147
To: Tim Wegner 71320,675 (X)

Speaking of Fractint, I've been using "Stereo: 3=photo" in the 3D Mode
Selection menu and the images come out filling the screen from edge to edge.
The Image Crop parameters on the Funny Glasses Parameters only seem to work
for Red/Blue stereo types 1 & 2 (alternate & superimpose).  As expected the
3D-ness goes completly out of whack around the edges.  Is there a way to force
this cropping for type 3?  I guess a piclab script is the way to go for the
time being, but I'm not sure just how much to crop and where.
 
I hope I've been using the term "page flipping" right.  By that do you mean
getting both images loaded into the vga and fiddling the Start Address
Register?  If so, yes, it seems to be fast enough, but getting it timed right
with the LCDs seems to take a little fudging.  Right now I'm just using
idiot-loop delays tuned from the keyboard, but some accurate msec delays and
hooks into vertical retrace (or sync, or whatever) might improve things.
       

There is 1 Reply.

#: 21352 S13/Virtual Reality
    11-Nov-91  13:34:01
Sb: #21346-Welcome!
Fm: Matt Drury 75300,1610
To: John Egenes 76427,3172 (X)

John,

Welcome to the Computer Art Forum, and to the Virtual Reality section. If you
have anything related to the field of virtual reality that you would like to
contribute, you are more than welcome to do so.

  Matt Drury
  Forum Staff




#: 21375 S13/Virtual Reality
    11-Nov-91  18:29:35
Sb: #Virtual Reality Forum
Fm: Chris 76166,1257
To: ALL

All, Just noticed the new Virtual Reality forum here and it seems like a ghod
send <G>. ive been involved heavily in graphics for the past 12 years doing
everything from programming Video games for some of the Game company's around
to recently in the past couple years getting heavily involved in Raytracing,
rendering and compression. Im currently working on a new animation system etc.
I was wondering what the main focus of this forum was going to be (I.E.
discussion, design, etc). having only been exposed to Virtual Reality within
the past 18 Months or so im still a little ignorant. Ive been toying with the
idea of working on a design for a VR system etc and was wondering if anyone
had already done preliminary work (Not the $50K plus systems <G>)?

Anyhow hope this forum really takes off as working on Virtual Reality systems
seems like a natural progression in not only the Game market, but for anything
that requires almost true to life simulations etc.

Chris Eisnaugle

There is 1 Reply.

#: 21378 S13/Virtual Reality
    11-Nov-91  18:38:00
Sb: #21340-#great timing
Fm: John Swenson 75300,2136
To: Tim Wegner 71320,675 (X)

Tim,
I just ordered the glasses, so we'll see what happens when I get them.
(I suppose $35 is a little much for Mitch to include them in the book <g>).
Maybe Larry could do the same sort of thing as the red/blue glasses, order a
big bunch from Sega and make them available to members. (the capital outlay
would be a bit more expensive though)
 
On a "standard" VGA you should be able to do page flipping in 320 x 200 and
320 x 400 mode. For SVGA boards its quite easy, BUT each one does it
differently. The code is going to need all that fun autodetect stuff to make
it work. Hmmm on a 1 meg board you actually have 16 "pages" in 320 x 200
mode, you could do a little animation in that.
 
I know, you can modify the "opening credits" screen so the names are rotating
on a cylinder when seen through the glasses!
 
John S.
       

There is 1 Reply.

#: 21379 S13/Virtual Reality
    11-Nov-91  18:38:05
Sb: #21351-great timing
Fm: John Swenson 75300,2136
To: Mike Schoenborn 70010,147 (X)

Mike,
you definately want to sync up to the vertical retrace signal, I'm sure I'll
have some code working soon after I get the glasses.
 
John S.
       

#: 21382 S13/Virtual Reality
    11-Nov-91  19:53:15
Sb: #21333-great timing
Fm: John Eagan/VR 76130,2225
To: John Swenson 75300,2136 (X)

John- OK, I can see it now. We'll use a chip that contains about 50 8031's.
<ggg>

JLE 

#: 21383 S13/Virtual Reality
    11-Nov-91  19:53:24
Sb: #21348-#great timing
Fm: John Eagan/VR 76130,2225
To: Mike Schoenborn 70010,147 (X)

Mike- Good points,all. I'm not a hardware designer, but I have enough
electronics schooling to know that you're very right about designing a card
that won't be fighting for addresses and interrupts. Big project,  no doubt.
Plus the added disadvantage that people would have to make, or get made, a
board, instead of just plugging in! As far as RS-232 vs.  IBM-compatible card
goes, I'm thinking in terms of us developing software to go with it, for DOS.
So the "exclusivity"  wouldn't bother me, as far as that is concerned. A
switch box is a good idea, it would solve my problem at least (I mean, I
wouldn't use the mouse AND P.G. at the same time,right?)    My concern is that
if we end up with,say, a system that uses the power glove WITH glasses,  we'd
be tying up plugs on the machine fast, and most of all, the speed problem. I
suspect you hardware buddies would come up with a direct-buss interface
because of speed. If that route is taken (and believe me, the trouble and $
of getting a board made would not be a treat) I suppose we'd need some sort of
"install" software, to negotiate interrupts and addresses and stuff.  Play
devil's advocate,  we need that.
JLE 

There are 2 Replies.

#: 21384 S13/Virtual Reality
    11-Nov-91  19:53:36
Sb: #21346-#Welcome!
Fm: John Eagan/VR 76130,2225
To: John Egenes 76427,3172 (X)

John- Yes, that's me! You probably recognize my name from grousing about my
problems with my SQ-1. In fact, haven't I addressed you directly at some
point? I'm hoping it will be back from the shop tomorrow, BTW. I haven't
checked in over there in over a week, am I missing anything?<g>  Glad to see
you here! You're certainly welcome to hang out, regardless of whether or not
you can contribute technically. Any ideas and suggestions and information you
might have are fair game.  Although I can see people getting our names
confused.<g>

JLE 

There is 1 Reply.

#: 21393 S13/Virtual Reality
    11-Nov-91  20:38:43
Sb: #21378-great timing
Fm: Tim Wegner 71320,675
To: John Swenson 75300,2136 (X)

The 3D isn't for the image lab book (as I'm sure you realized :-)), but Mitch
has a lot of other projects up his sleeve that could use it. I'm definitely
interested anyway, though until Image Lab is done I'll not be doing anything
about the 3D glasses.

#: 21397 S13/Virtual Reality
    11-Nov-91  21:49:16
Sb: CyberArts conference
Fm: John Eagan/VR 76130,2225
To: ALL

To All: This is late notice, if you haven't already heard about it,  but
KEYBOARD magazine will be presenting "CyberArts International 1991"  November
14-17 at the Pasadena Center & Civic Auditorium. Many events are scheduled
including performances and presentations from many involved in the VR field.
See recent issues of Keyboard for details.  Sorry,incredibly, the information
I have does not include a voice phone number. FAX:408-446-1088       If you
ARE ALREADY PLANNING TO ATTEND please let us know, we'd be interested in
hearing        

#: 21401 S13/Virtual Reality
    12-Nov-91  01:35:18
Sb: #21322-great timing
Fm: Bill Hinkle 75300,2050
To: John Eagan/VR 76130,2225 (X)

I guess DXF is pretty close to a Rosetta Stone for microcomputer-based CAD
these days -- maybe that'd do it! <<Bill>>



#: 21404 S13/Virtual Reality
    12-Nov-91  07:16:52
Sb: #21383-#great timing
Fm: John Swenson 75300,2136
To: John Eagan/VR 76130,2225 (X)

John,
I don't know anything about the power glove, so I don't really know its data
requirements, but I have written  scanner drivers that run on the standard
serial port and parallel port and they really move along. I don't really see
why a special board is needed (unless this is running on a 4 Mhz XT <g>).
 
John S.
       

There is 1 Reply.

#: 21408 S13/Virtual Reality
    12-Nov-91  09:38:27
Sb: #Posting to SCI.VIRTUAL..
Fm: Matt Drury 75300,1610
To: All

Gentlefolk,
 
This is an excerpt of a message I have received from Mark, the co-moderator
and librarian of the InterNet newsgroup, in regards to posting a message on
the SCI.VIRTUAL-WORLDS newsgroup. Mark will be joining us soon here in the
VR section, once he gets his account with the service activated.
 
 > You mentioned having trouble with posting to sci.virtual-worlds...
 > if you send your articles to hlab@milton.u.washington.edu, they'll
 > be automagically posted.  It's probably the easy way to post. :)
 
Note that from CompuServe Mail, your address to post to would start with
>INTERNET: so that the service can route it correctly.
 
Mark has also promised me information on how to request placing oneself on
the SCI.VIRTUAL-WORLDS mailing list, which I will post here when available.
The mailing list will give you the day's messages in that newsgroup directly
in your CompuServe Mail box.
 
. Matt Drury
.  Forum Staff
 
 


There is 1 Reply.

#: 21409 S13/Virtual Reality
    12-Nov-91  09:38:30
Sb: #21383-#great timing
Fm: Matt Drury 75300,1610
To: John Eagan/VR 76130,2225 (X)

John,

You may consider the use of the parallel port for information. Most systems
have a spare one lying about, and I have used a TWO-WAY data transfer system
that uses the supposedly unidirectional parallel port in my machine. Also,
there's more data lines to play with, and greater flexibility, from my
novice's point of view.

  Matt Drury
  Forum Staff




There is 1 Reply.

#: 21416 S13/Virtual Reality
    12-Nov-91  13:55:42
Sb: #VR Users Group
Fm: Alexander Schipal 76137,326
To: All

Hi, virtual realists

When visiting Computer Graphics 91 in London last week, I got info about the
Virtual Reality Users Group (VRUG). Their contact address is:

 V.R.U.G.
 66 Dormney House, Adelaide Rd.
 London NW3 3PN
 Phone 071 586 9141

Next group meeting is (probably) sunday, Nov.17th in the Brain Club (11
Wardour St.) I'll attend and post a message about the goings-on next week.

Are there other VR user/enthusiast/homebrew groups anywhere ?

Alex Schipal

There is 1 Reply.

#: 21418 S13/Virtual Reality
    12-Nov-91  14:09:59
Sb: #VR demo received today
Fm: Matt Drury 75300,1610
To: All

Gentlefolk,

I've been playing for the last few minutes with the VR demo that John uploaded
to the library this morning. I strongly recommend it; it's an excellent
example of what we're trying to achieve.

An idea for the general pool - what of a VR project to interface CompuServe to
user PCs, much like CIM and TapCIS do now, but in 3D, graphically? Using a
powerglove would be a most interesting way to manipulate the service.

  Matt Drury
  Forum Staff

PS: Over in one of the Windows forums is a program that replaces the Program
Manager with a 'virtual reality' interface. I have been told that it is not
too good, but could be an idea that could be built on.




There are 3 Replies.

#: 21445 S13/Virtual Reality
    12-Nov-91  19:21:12
Sb: #21350-#great timing
Fm: John Eagan/VR 76130,2225
To: Mike Schoenborn 70010,147 (X)

Mike- Yes,I'm wondering if the plastic may actually be polaroid. You ought to
check that out before you rip the suckers apart, although I can't
think,offhand, why they might be polarized. But I know little about visual
perception, that might be essential to the whole thing for all I know. BTW,
speaking of that, if you guys have any good titles of books and magazine
articles/journals that address subjects like that, or other VR-related areas,
let me know. I'd like to start building a bibliography for the lib.
JLE 

There is 1 Reply.

#: 21446 S13/Virtual Reality
    12-Nov-91  19:21:22
Sb: #21375-#Virtual Reality Forum
Fm: John Eagan/VR 76130,2225
To: Chris 76166,1257 (X)

Chris- Glad to have you with us. We're just getting started here,  this
section just opened this past weekend! So if you would like to get involved,
you're certainly in at the ground floor. Sounds like you've got just the
background we're looking for. We're just discussing some basics right now,
feeling around for what hardware we can use, etc. I've written a short intro
available in lib 13 as VRINTR.ZIP (or) VRINTR.DOC , just to give you a feel
for what we want to do. In short, while there will almost certainly be
discussion and philisophical ramblings, the main purpose is to try to bring VR
to the average DOS-based PC.  Definitely NOT $50K-plus systems! e.g.,I have a
12MHz 286 with 1MB of RAM. No Cray here!! Of course, my machine is pretty
low-end, but we want to shoot for that sort of level.    Feel free to
contribute any files you might have, and jump right in to the message threads.
We already have messages on the board from several people who have been very
active on the graphics forums, including the Stone Soup Group, the bunch
responsible for FRACTINT. BTW,please go to the "change forum options"  menu
and add your last name, so we can keep things clear as the messages pile up.
John Eagan-VR section leader 

There is 1 Reply.

#: 21447 S13/Virtual Reality
    12-Nov-91  19:51:17
Sb: #21446-#Virtual Reality Forum
Fm: Chris Eisnaugle 76166,1257
To: John Eagan/VR 76130,2225 (X)

John, Sounds Great, def lookig forward to things here. By the way i read a
thread about a PC-Board and i tend to agree that this may not be a good idea
as it ties it to a particualr machine etc. Has there been any thought when
developing the Viewing Helmet (whatever your calling it at the moment <G>) to
use something like a 32020 or or i860 for graphics rendering, these offer a
tremendous # of primatives (the I860 being a pure risc chip offers fantastic
speed) If something like this was integrated into the helmet i think you could
really get some great effects and speed. Anhow was just thinking off the top
of my head and it may be beyond an initial system etc. or it may be totally
the wrong direction <G>.

Chris Eisnaugle

There is 1 Reply.

#: 21454 S13/Virtual Reality
    12-Nov-91  21:29:55
Sb: #21445-#great timing
Fm: Bill Pulver 70405,1152
To: John Eagan/VR 76130,2225 (X)

John, (& Mike),
       DONT rip the suckers apart! Thats exactly how an LCD display works. The
incoming light is polarized as it passes thru the active areas of the
"crystal". The active areas are either "on" or "off" (obviously <g>). The
crystal when "on" polarizes the light 90 deg away from the orientation of the
"film" polarizer stuck (with one *tough* adhesive!) to the outside of the
cell. Thus when "on" the light is blocked, "off" it is polarized on the way
out but still passed, albiet somewhat dimmer. I've ordered a pair too, should
have them soon!

Later --- Bill




There are 2 Replies.

#: 21465 S13/Virtual Reality
    12-Nov-91  22:59:49
Sb: #21409-great timing
Fm: John Eagan/VR 76130,2225
To: Matt Drury 75300,1610 (X)

see my reply to John S. 

#: 21466 S13/Virtual Reality
    12-Nov-91  22:59:54
Sb: #21404-#great timing
Fm: John Eagan/VR 76130,2225
To: John Swenson 75300,2136 (X)

John- OK, you have enough experience in this that I'll accept your word on it,
maybe I'll forget the board idea. I wouldn't really want the hassle of that if
at all avoidable, and besides, we really don't want to create something that
forces people to do too much hardware hacking!

JLE 

There is 1 Reply.

#: 21467 S13/Virtual Reality
    12-Nov-91  23:00:05
Sb: #21447-#Virtual Reality Forum
Fm: John Eagan/VR 76130,2225
To: Chris Eisnaugle 76166,1257 (X)

Chris- OK, good to have another opinion about "to board or not to board".
About the system compatibility issue, I think an important consideration is
that we ought to steer activity toward DOS platform.  Mind you, I'm not going
to try to discourage general development, and there is room for several
different projects here.  But we should think in terms of software. The
general goal is to try to get VR working,  which implies more than just pieces
of hardware,  but some kind of application as well. Which brings us back to
platform. But we're pretty open . Perhaps, what we need is to develop a
consensus on a couple of pieces of hardware, and then any software projects
could take off from there using a common "standard". DOS machines are the most
common, and the work in the forum in general is pretty much DOS based, with
few exceptions.  But keep those ideas coming. The co-processor idea is
interesting, would you elaborate on any ideas? I saw something about TI
graphics processors in May DDJ,  what do you know about them? (TI340XX series)
There is, at this point, no formal "viewing helmet" underway,  although that
seems to me like a good project, one I'd like to see. If you have a proposal,
you can always upload it to the lib, since the message space is kind of small,
and also messages go away with age!  After a few weeks of kicking things
around, I'll look at what's on the table and offer my two cents about where we
seem to be going.
JLE 

There are 2 Replies.

#: 21468 S13/Virtual Reality
    12-Nov-91  23:00:15
Sb: #21454-great timing
Fm: John Eagan/VR 76130,2225
To: Bill Pulver 70405,1152 (X)

Bill- I guess that answers that question. Thanks, I never actually knew how an
LCD works. BTW,glad to see you in here too. The crowd is getting interesting
already, and the section is only 5 days old.
JLE
  

#: 21470 S13/Virtual Reality
    12-Nov-91  23:57:12
Sb: #21418-VR demo received today
Fm: John Eagan/VR 76130,2225
To: Matt Drury 75300,1610 (X)

Matt- That sounds like a pretty good idea. It would be *much* more fun than
terminal emulation,or TAPCIS, and far beyond the text-mode graphics of CIM.

JLE
ps- too bad I don't "do windows"<G>, I would try that one out. 

#: 21471 S13/Virtual Reality
    12-Nov-91  23:57:19
Sb: #21416-VR Users Group
Fm: John Eagan/VR 76130,2225
To: Alexander Schipal 76137,326 (X)

Alex- Thanks! Keep us posted! See Matt Drury's message concerning the internet
sci.virtual-worlds newsgroup.

JLE 

#: 21472 S13/Virtual Reality
    12-Nov-91  23:57:32
Sb: #21408-#Posting to SCI.VIRTUAL..
Fm: John Eagan/VR 76130,2225
To: Matt Drury 75300,1610 (X)

Matt- That sounds great. So far, the record for number of mail messages
waiting for me is 7. I have a sneaking suspicion that the number would
increase greatly!

JLE 

There is 1 Reply.

#: 21475 S13/Virtual Reality
    13-Nov-91  02:59:40
Sb: #21467-#Virtual Reality Forum
Fm: Mike Haaland 72300,1433
To: John Eagan/VR 76130,2225 (X)


To bad on the "steer activity toward a DOS platform".  I've NEVER owned a DOS
machine, and probably never will.  What about the Amiga/Mac/Atari/OSK/UNIX
types?  There are plenty of those running POVRay.  You mentioned Chris Babcock
a few days ago, you know he wrote the Flood fill routine for my OSK box? Be
careful when you claim that "the work in the Forum in general is pretty much
DOS based, with few exceptions."   I guess you have not been reading all the
forum messages.  I think the forum is pretty much for 'portability' these
days.  Or maybe because I'm for it, my bias just makes those messages stand
out.  I agree Fractint is buried in DOS.  But POV and DKB and AEWire (A wire
fram modeller), are not.

Anyway, I'd like to be involved with the Powerglove/Glasses stuff too, but If
I need a DOS machine to do it, I'll have to pass.  I do understand that when
talking GFX, you have to have some machine specific code,  but look at the
potential amount of hackers 'steering towards DOS' will leave out or the VR
projects.  I just don't like to have the nature of the machine interface rule
out any but IBMPC owners.

'Nuff said,

Mike

There are 2 Replies.

#: 21480 S13/Virtual Reality
    13-Nov-91  05:41:11
Sb: #21466-#great timing
Fm: John Swenson 75300,2136
To: John Eagan/VR 76130,2225 (X)

I think one of the best uses of this (particularlyy in the short term) will
be the interface for the wireframe modeler being worked on over in POV land.
I think you have to be careful that VR be used for something that it is GOOD
at, not just as a new fangled interface for something that already works
well. For example I personally would NOT go to the trouble to put on gloves
and glasses to run TAPCIS (it works fine just the way it is). But it would be
the "only game in town" for things like the 3d modeler, specifying the path
for a "flyby" of a julibrot etc.
 
It would also have a great use in scientific analysis software. Displaying
and analyzing graphs of many variables is traditionally a very tough job,
with VR you could do a true 3D graph, and the user can go right inside the
graph and move around in the "graph" space. (business types could also use
this alot. I can just see the multi-megabuck version of the hardware being
used at the "anual meeting" to show the financial graphs to the stockholders)
 
This is where I think the initial energies should be focused, on things that
cannot be done very well by any of the more "traditional" methods.
 
Focusing on applications such as the TAPCIS interface is just going to get
us labeled as a bunch of crazy fools rather than making significant
improvements in the computing environment.
 
John S.
       

There are 2 Replies.

#: 21481 S13/Virtual Reality
    13-Nov-91  05:41:19
Sb: #21418-#VR demo received today
Fm: John Swenson 75300,2136
To: Matt Drury 75300,1610 (X)

Oops,
I replied to John rather than to you about the TAPCIS connection. See that
message for my thoughts on the subject.
 
I just had another thought on this, looking and working with a thread graph
might be an amuzing application of VR technology.
 
BTW in order to REALLY make this work right we are going to need some way of
sensing the users head in relationship to the screen, so the software can do
the "looking around an object" bit. Ultrasonic transducers at the corners of
the screen and a little microphone on the glasses would probably work quite
well. I did a system like this awhile back, on a much larger scale, tracking
the position of a person in a room. Given the slow speed of sound, the
hardware is quite simple. Send out a pulse and start a counter, when the pulse
comes back in from the mic, stop the counter. Of course you have to worry
about ambient noise, but that is actually fairly easy to handle with digital
phase locked loop apprroaches.
 
John S.
       

There are 2 Replies.

#: 21487 S13/Virtual Reality
    13-Nov-91  07:09:54
Sb: #21472-#Posting to SCI.VIRTUAL..
Fm: Matt Drury 75300,1610
To: John Eagan/VR 76130,2225 (X)

I had 16 last evening, but that was due to being placed on the
SCI.VIRTUALWORLDS mailing list.


	
WARNING * -- if you subscribe to this list, everyone, expect one Mail


message per message on the newsgroup. I was under the understanding that it
was sent in a daily compilation.

  Matt Drury
  Forum Staff

There is 1 Reply.

#: 21490 S13/Virtual Reality
    13-Nov-91  09:21:27
Sb: #21467-#Virtual Reality Forum
Fm: Chris Eisnaugle 76166,1257
To: John Eagan/VR 76130,2225 (X)

John, I agree a lot of development is done on DOS but other machines do lend
themselves nicely to graphics developement and def cannot be ignored even in
the first go round (I Mean even if they arent developed for at the start they
def have to be kept in mind when designing and there strengths and weaknesses
addressed as well). As to the TI 320xx chip, about 2 yrs ago i was working on
an imaging system and the TI chips were ones we explored for using in a
display bored for our system. The chip is really nice in that it offers
(32020) about 12-15 mips graphics performance and includes a large set up
built in primatives for drawing, scaling, rotatiting, off screen drawing, and
just about any other graphic primative you might need. My suggestion into
integrating a chip like this into the helmet was not only to give a leg up on
primatives for rendering, and drawing but back to the main issue keeping the
VR work somewhat system independent. If the helmet was linked via the
Parrallel or Serial port and update packets (fromt he host) were sent to the
helmet (Which would need to have other chips to run the 320xx and receive data
etc) it could render seens pretty much instantly removing the drawing job from
the host thus freeing it do go onto the next task it had to perform etc. And
software that used a sort of update packet driven scheme could easily be
written machine independent. But like i said something like this is  prob in
the future or way off base, but thought id throw it into the fray <G>. But you
may be right in that initial software (primatives, Libs, and controllers)
should be written for prototyping etc. Has there ever been any thought to
creating your own glove using motion sensors etc? Also went looking for the
powerglove and couldnt find it, did they stop selling it? Also what kind of
cost does it incur to purcahse this thing <G>.

Anyhow had thought about a helmet before so thought id ask <G>.

Chris Eisnaugle

There is 1 Reply.

#: 21497 S13/Virtual Reality
    13-Nov-91  10:12:47
Sb: #21480-great timing
Fm: Dan Farmer 70703,1632
To: John Swenson 75300,2136 (X)

John... what a GREAT idea!  A wireframe modeler where you can simply pick up
shapes and move them up,down,left,right,back, and forward as though you were
hanging bulbs on a Christmas tree!  I love it.
    -Dan

#: 21498 S13/Virtual Reality
    13-Nov-91  10:12:57
Sb: #21475-#Virtual Reality Forum
Fm: Dan Farmer 70703,1632
To: Mike Haaland 72300,1433 (X)

I'd have to throw in my vote towards multi-platform design on your projects. 
I myself am totally DOS based, but I know from my experience with the PoV
group that portability is a great asset.  You will find plenty of help and
advice on portability issues over in the Raytracing forum.  David Buck has
even written a document outlining the major considerations for portabile
graphics programming.  By keeping the platform generic, help will come from
experience programmers from all of those platforms and the variety of
viewpoints will only enhance the program.

I'm excited to see what develops here!
    -Dan

There is 1 Reply.

#: 21509 S13/Virtual Reality
    13-Nov-91  13:51:25
Sb: #21418-#VR demo received today
Fm: Mike Schoenborn 70010,147
To: Matt Drury 75300,1610 (X)

I second your recommendation on the demo.  At first I thought it was a cute
toy, but the more I play with it...
 
As for a VR interface to CIS, have you been reading _Neuromancer_ at bedtime
again lately?
       

There are 2 Replies.

#: 21510 S13/Virtual Reality
    13-Nov-91  13:51:29
Sb: #21481-VR demo received today
Fm: Mike Schoenborn 70010,147
To: John Swenson 75300,2136 (X)

> Ultrasonic transducers at the corners of the screen and a little microphone
> on the glasses...
 
You can get the hardware you speak of at Toys-R-Us.  Just strap a PowerGlove
to your head with duct tape.
       

#: 21511 S13/Virtual Reality
    13-Nov-91  13:51:33
Sb: #21487-#Posting to SCI.VIRTUAL..
Fm: Mike Schoenborn 70010,147
To: Matt Drury 75300,1610 (X)

What is the possibility of packaging a week's worth of sci.virtualworlds
mailing list messages into a single archive file for the libs?
       

There is 1 Reply.

#: 21512 S13/Virtual Reality
    13-Nov-91  13:51:41
Sb: #21454-great timing
Fm: Mike Schoenborn 70010,147
To: Bill Pulver 70405,1152 (X)

Bill -
 
Ever since I was a child I have taken the expression "Don't!" as a call to
action, especially when it involved taking things apart. Thanks, I needed that.
 
The glasses can indeed be taken apart with nothing more than a pocket knife.
The 2 LCDs are mounted on a frame stuck in a sunglasses "shell", and can be
eaily, carefully, pried out without damage. (There is a contact point on
either side, 3 across the top, 2 on the bottom; you'll see what I mean when
yours are delivered).  The polarizers are part of the LCDs themselves, not
the sunglass plastic.
 
Without the sunglasses, the lenses pass a *lot* of light.  I don't know the
proper terminology to use here, but I want to say it seems like there is now
5% attenuation instead of 35.  Color images come through wonderfully without
having to max out the brightness control, and you can work much better with
room lights on.  The downside is that flicker is very noticible.  Right now I
can put up with it to see raytraces in full color 3D (640x480x256x3? :-), but
I think when the novelty wears off, the flicker will become quite annoying.
 
Maybe "flip up" shades and little epoxy will do the trick.
       

#: 21516 S13/Virtual Reality
    13-Nov-91  13:58:38
Sb: #21509-VR demo received today
Fm: Matt Drury 75300,1610
To: Mike Schoenborn 70010,147 (X)

Mike,

I've read the complete works of Gibson many a time. Let's keep the grimness
and _Blade Runner_ feelings out of this project, okay? <g>

  Matt Drury
  Forum Staff

#: 21517 S13/Virtual Reality
    13-Nov-91  14:00:00
Sb: #21511-Posting to SCI.VIRTUAL..
Fm: Matt Drury 75300,1610
To: Mike Schoenborn 70010,147 (X)

Mike,

I don't have access to the newsgroup directly; it can be had in message form
as I have described before, and I am pulling it in through my home FidoNet
node. I will check with the gentleman who is co-moderator of the newsgroup
about posting it from my home collection; if that is all right, I will rig my
home system to dump a week's worth into a file, archive it, and place it
online.

  Matt Drury
  Forum Staff

#: 21531 S13/Virtual Reality
    13-Nov-91  19:28:42
Sb: #21480-great timing
Fm: John Eagan/VR 76130,2225
To: John Swenson 75300,2136 (X)

John- Good ideas. The wire-frame modelling is definitely something I've
pondered, do you think that it would be possible to work something out with
the POV modeller being worked on? I'll have to dig into the messages on that,
I confess I haven't kept up on what is happening with POV. What do you think
of Chris E.'s suggestions,BTW?

JLE
ps- *****TO EVERYBODY*******
let's think about starting to make threads on the subjects at hand,  so we can
keep things clearer for all, instead of extending threads well beyond the
original heading
  

#: 21532 S13/Virtual Reality
    13-Nov-91  19:28:50
Sb: #21490-Virtual Reality Forum
Fm: John Eagan/VR 76130,2225
To: Chris Eisnaugle 76166,1257 (X)

Chris - See my reply to Mike. I think the helmet is a very interesting idea,
keep thinking about it! As I said last msg., there has been no specific
proposal for a helmet, we're discussing things in general now,  but that is
worth working on, for sure. Not off base at all. The only consideration from
my view is that it not be too expensive. Write something up and upload it to
the library. Use lib 2,"new images", and Matt Drury will copy it over to
section 13. On the helmet again, this is the sort of thing I imagined when
starting to think about a VR interface. I like it. Read John Swenson's message
about detection systems, maybe the 2 of you can bat some ideas around.
JLE 

#: 21533 S13/Virtual Reality
    13-Nov-91  19:28:56
Sb: #21498-#Virtual Reality Forum
Fm: John Eagan/VR 76130,2225
To: Dan Farmer 70703,1632 (X)

Dan- Well put. Glad to see you here,as well. Will you be jumping into the
fray? See my reply to Mike Haaland, also.
JLE 

There is 1 Reply.

#: 21534 S13/Virtual Reality
    13-Nov-91  19:29:09
Sb: #21475-#Virtual Reality Forum
Fm: John Eagan/VR 76130,2225
To: Mike Haaland 72300,1433 (X)

Mike- I won't argue. Personally, I can see many reasons for keeping it broad
as far as platform goes, I mean, you could make a good case that the Amiga is
the way to go here! I have DKB,for example, which was originally developed FOR
the Amiga, and then ported to DOS by Aaron Collins. So I understand, your
point is well taken, believe me. I won't sit here trying to tell everyone that
DOS is it, like it or leave it.  That would be, quite simply, nothing short of
foolish. I do think,  however, that it IS important to remember that DOS is
the closest thing there is to a "defacto" OS there is. That's nothing against
other platforms, I would like to have an Amiga and a Mac in addition to my
286.  Also, please read my opening messages to the section, you will notice I
proposed using C for projects. One of the reasons, I don't think it's
necessary to point out, is portability of code (up to a point, at least).
Relax. No one is going to get left out here. Besides,  the more I think about
it, and the more I read in the messages from people who are miles beyond me
technically, I think a card is probably unnecessary after all. Using serial
and parallel ports will probably do.  When things DO get platform-specific,
can I take your message as an offer to help make developing code work on
different platforms? There is no reason why we can't have parallel projects
going on, anyway; but a little bit of unified effort is important, so we can
get the most from our collected resources.  Nothing is fixed yet, so hang in
there, and most important, keep telling me what you think.
JLE 

There is 1 Reply.

#: 21535 S13/Virtual Reality
    13-Nov-91  19:29:16
Sb: #21509-VR demo received today
Fm: John Eagan/VR 76130,2225
To: Mike Schoenborn 70010,147 (X)

Mike- I like walking thrugh walls,myself.<g> BTW,another good one for science
fiction VR networking is "Earth"by David Brin.

JLE 

#: 21536 S13/Virtual Reality
    13-Nov-91  19:29:24
Sb: #21481-VR demo received today
Fm: John Eagan/VR 76130,2225
To: John Swenson 75300,2136 (X)

John- How exactly does that work? I figured with something like that,  you
would need maybe 2 mics, to get directional info. It seems from what you
described you can get distance, but not direction. I guess the transmit
transducers must be sending out different signals?
Or is it some sort of multiplexed setup, where the software keeps track of
which transducer is pulsing in time, comparing to received pulses,  and
sorting out the difference in times? 

#: 21538 S13/Virtual Reality
    13-Nov-91  20:54:48
Sb: #Position Sensors
Fm: Alexander Schipal 76137,326
To: All


Last year I asked a friend who is an engineer at a British aerospace company
about the availability of laser gyros. He smiled and said, yep, they are
available, weigh only 20 pounds and cost a mere $100K.

A few weeks ago, there was a tiny notice on Business Week's "New Technology"
page about an upstart company that makes a cheap ($500) and tiny (2 oz.)
gyroscope. Given the size and weight, it MUST be a laser gyro. As a first
application, they are doing a 3D mouse. The company's name is Gyration Inc. 
No address was given.

If this thing works with reasonable speed and precision, it is exactly the
kind of position sensor VR needs ! Other than the currently used magnetic and
ultrasound sensors, a gyro would not need a transmitter reference point that
has a data link to the receiver, and there is NO RANGE LIMITATION.  It could
even be used for a mobile/outdoors VR system.

Question: Where is Gyration Inc ?

There are 3 Replies.

#: 21546 S13/Virtual Reality
    14-Nov-91  00:05:05
Sb: #21384-Welcome!
Fm: John Egenes 76427,3172
To: John Eagan/VR 76130,2225 (X)

John,
       Yeah, I think we spoke about various probs. with both your SQ-1 and my
VFX. Midi forum is lively as ever.
       I'm looking forward to seeing what some of the tech heads here come up
with. Should be both entertaining and enlightening. BTW, where will the files
for this forum be located?
       Sheesh, I *hope* people don't get us mixed up. I know how to use
computer stuff, but I sure don't know what's going on under the hood.[g]

jre




#: 21548 S13/Virtual Reality
    14-Nov-91  00:27:29
Sb: Popular Mechanics?!
Fm: John Eagan/VR 76130,2225
To: ALL

I stumbled on something interesting today. I was flipping through the NOV
issue of Popular Mechanics and found a blurb (with photo!) of the molecular
modeling VR system at the University of N.Carolina /Chapel Hill ! Take a look
if you get a chance.
JLE 

#: 21549 S13/Virtual Reality
    14-Nov-91  00:36:06
Sb: #Rendering Engines
Fm: Alexander Schipal 76137,326
To: All


The VR demo program in the library shows what is probably the best you can do
with a standard PC without any hardware accelerator: a few hundred polygons
per second, no Gouraud shading, no texturing. Frankly, that isn't very
impressive. With this level of performance, VR isn't even good for games.

VR needs VERY fast 3D rendering, and a "naked" PC/Amiga/Atari/Mac simply does
not have the MIPs that it takes.

To get a discussion going, I'll list some possible PC-based rendering engines:

1) Intel DVI card Used by Sense8 for the WorldToolKit. The 750 processor seems
to be pretty good at texture mapping, but has no FPU. Still no Gouraud shading
and low polygon count, but the polygons can be phototextured.  Stuff like a
triangle with a "fir tree" texture or a square with an "oriental rug" pattern
makes a virtual world look pretty good.  DVI cards are readily available and
do double duty as multimedia hardware in Multimedia Windows. They also have a
very good audio section.

2) Transputer (net) + frame buffer My personal favourite. Transputers are not
very popular in the US (not-invented-here syndrome?), but the new T9000 chips
are the ONLY way to do fancy stuff like realtime raytracing. A single T9000
has about 100 MIPs, and an arbitrary number of T9000s can be connected in
multiprocessing transputer nets by four 100mbps packet-switching data links
integrated on the chip.Extremely high performance + unlimited scaleabilty !
Transputer boards are also easy to layout (few glue chips).

3) 80860 + frame buffer Very fast FPU with special 3D-oriented instructions
that facilitate shading and Z-buffering.

4) Graphics processors Division has an 80860 board that offloads shading to a
High Speed Shading Processor (AFAIK, made by Sharp). It is said to shade twice
as fast as the 80860. Maybe a HSSP-only board is worth a try.

5) ASICs What about a few nifty FPGAs ? Dream on...

There are 2 Replies.

#: 21550 S13/Virtual Reality
    14-Nov-91  01:29:08
Sb: #21538-Position Sensors
Fm: Mike Schoenborn 70010,147
To: Alexander Schipal 76137,326 (X)

Alexander -
 
I think I saw a blurb on that in a recent EDN or Computer Design.  I'll see
if the issue is still around.
 
Mike
       

#: 21554 S13/Virtual Reality
    14-Nov-91  02:34:06
Sb: #21534-Virtual Reality Forum
Fm: Mike Haaland 72300,1433
To: John Eagan/VR 76130,2225


Glad to hear the PC board, excuse the pun <g>, probably won't be needed. hehe
I just didn't want to see others, that have chosen different OSs and all the
Motorola types, left out because something needs to be plugged into a PC slot.

I did read your opening messages.  They intrigued me very much.  You proposed
using C, good choice, so things could be massaged for different machines. 
That's what kinda set me off when I read the "DOS slant" to your message.  You
almost said let's make this a DOS specific project.

On helping with code,Yessir!  I'll be more than willing to help do code for
the platform I have.  Which at the moment is a Signetics 68070 box with a
graphics Co-Pro, same chip set as the CD-I machines, running OS-9. (Same OS as
CD-I too)

I see Dan made a very good point, that programmers from different platforms
will jump in and help with code for those different platforms.

Looking forward to seeing what develops,

Mike

#: 21555 S13/Virtual Reality
    14-Nov-91  06:02:04
Sb: 3D glasses
Fm: John Swenson 75300,2136
To: Mike Schoenborn 70010,147 (X)

Mike,
(in accordance with John's message this is now a new thread)
Thats great that it can actually be made to transmit a lot more light, I'll
have to wait to get mine before I can talk intelligently about them though.
 
I was thinking about tweaking the VGA timing such that you used as fast a
vertical refresh rate as your board and monitor can take. For 640 x 480 and
lower on the Ergo that means 90Hz (which is the fastest most monitors can
do). That should have considerably less flicker than what you get out of
"normal" modes. Another approach would be to use a builtin interlaced mode,
and alternate the lines from the two images in the video ram, you wouldn't
have to do ANYTHING to the VGA then, just make sure that the glasses are
syncronized with the vertical rate. It wouldn't cut down on the flicker, but
the software would not need to tweak the VGA.
 
 
I was talking to friend at work about this and he came up with a nice
solution which might work. Switch the glasses in two or three places during
the drawing of the scan, and interleave the eyes on one image, then have the
other image use the oposite eye interleaving. The only problem with this is
that the glasses might not change fast enough to "swap" on the fly (it would
have to be done during the HORIZONTAL retrace, which isn't all that long
<g>.)
 
John S.
       

#: 21556 S13/Virtual Reality
    14-Nov-91  06:02:13
Sb: #21538-Position Sensors
Fm: John Swenson 75300,2136
To: Alexander Schipal 76137,326 (X)

Actually it probably is NOT a laser gyro. All a lazer gyro is, is an almost
indestructable accelerometer. There are many other forms of accelerometers
which are MUCH cheaper than a laser one (and offer better resolution for
small size). I worked on one many years ago (so its probably much better and
cheaper today) which consisted of one of those integrated circuit pressure
sensors, with a tiny blob of mercury on the sensor surface (kept in place
with a little plastic buble). As the whole assembly moved the mercury would
push against the sensor, giving a nice proportional voltage to acceleration.
We used several of these in a little array to form a gyroscope, and put it in
a car and you could basically track it around town. After running around town
all day the absolute position error was about about 5 feet. The position
accuracy was primarily determined by how good the ADCs were. To get that good
in those days needed some awfully expensive ADCs. (the wole thing took up
about a cubic inch PLUS electronics of course <g>). I'm not sure if it was
sensitive enough for use on a glove though. The entire sensor array cost
about $60, but then there were the ADCs and other electronics, including a
computer, so the TOTAL cost was pretty high. It could be done a LOT cheaper
today. The sensors are a little cheaper, but the rest is much less.
 
John S.
       

#: 21557 S13/Virtual Reality
    14-Nov-91  06:02:21
Sb: #21549-Rendering Engines
Fm: John Swenson 75300,2136
To: Alexander Schipal 76137,326 (X)

Alexander,
I work for an ASIC company and have worked on a number of very high
performance proprietary graphics chips. The last one I worked on could do
150,000 tranformed, shaded 3d polygons per second, not too shabby
performance!
 
The last time I looked at a transputer design (several years ago) the
interchip communcations was so slow it killed the system (that was a DSP
application), we wound up doing it with an ASIC instead. It sounds like they
have improved a LOT since then. (I'm not sure I trust the 100 Mips number
though, there is so much specmanship going on its incredible, I also design
RISC processors so I'm constantly battling with marketing over ours and the
competition's "mips rating"). I think you just got my juices flowing again to
look into transputers.
 
Unfortunately for use by us on this forum, those graphics processor chips
have an NRE of $250,000 and unit costs of $300 or so (in volume).
 
John S.
       

#: 21562 S13/Virtual Reality
    14-Nov-91  08:02:32
Sb: #21549-Rendering Engines
Fm: Chris Eisnaugle 76166,1257
To: Alexander Schipal 76137,326 (X)

Alexander, Your thought about not being able to get the throughput etc on a
plain machine without some co-processor help mimic mine exactly. Haveing done
so many video games and other graphic demos for some pretty sophisticatd
stuff, it just dont have it alone. I myself dont think i'd go with DVi
although nice. Your transputer idea is very interesting as they rent that
expensive and do offer incredible processing power. I had talked with John
about some of this and was discussing it last night, there def has to be some
sort of viewing device, beyond 3D-glasses, so i had proposed placing the
rendering system in the helmet and have the host send updates to it etc. The
helmet should be able to be programmed to render based on a set of information
etc. Initialy placing it in the helmet may not be cost-effective etc, so we
had thought about a co-processor board in the machine with the helmet system
connected. I have not had the pleasure of using Transputers yet, but have done
something similiar to this with TI chips althought they are much slower.

Anyway, think your suggestions are pretty much right on.

Chris Eisnaugle

#: 21563 S13/Virtual Reality
    14-Nov-91  08:09:52
Sb: #21538-#Position Sensors
Fm: Robert F. O'Connor 70314,2525
To: Alexander Schipal 76137,326 (X)

Guess what!  Logitech will be marketing a combination 3-button-2D, 5-button-3D
mouse (with a little ultrasonic tripod) "2nd quarter '92" and are offering a
programmer's interface and prototype mouse right now "in limited quantities." 
I've got a press release from them that you can find in the LOGITECH forum,
library 6, Announcements, file 3D.TXT.  The description mentions a "head
tracker mount" which seems to be included, and a "dual mode" allowing two mice
(one head-mounted, one hand-held) to be used simultaneously (it then goes on
to say that _four_ mice can be used simultaneously with one tripod--share your
VR with a friend!).  Interesting features will include audio in-out and a
suspend button that freezes mouse output so that it can be repositioned
(equivalent to lifting a 2d mouse off of the pad to reposition it).  It will
have both Mac and PC (and whatever) interfaces and only requires a serial port
interface.

No word on pricing, of course, but I will be calling Logitech later this
morning to find out what the development kit is going for.  Hopefully, I can
leave a message with their response this evening.  If it's not too expensive
this might be an alternative to a homebrew powerglove/head position interface.
If Logitech makes enough noise (and they don't seem to be slouches in the
marketing area) we might see a lot of third-party support for this (heck, even
Microsoft included a LogiMouse driver in Win3 from day one).

(I'd upload it here, but haven't done that before on CIS; do I just upload to
LIB 2 and email Matt?)

-Robert



There is 1 Reply.

#: 21568 S13/Virtual Reality
    14-Nov-91  10:12:56
Sb: VR in Carnivals
Fm: Matt Drury 75300,1610
To: All

An article in today's _Orlando Sentinel_ - the business section - mentions
"'Virtuality,' a computerized simulation game that takes players through a
3-dimensional world."

By Richard Burnett of the Sentinel staff, this article goes on to indicate
that users of Virtuality "do battle with others using the same system," and
that it is made by W. Industries Ltd. of Leicester, England, distributed by
Edison Brothers Stores Inc. of St. Louis.

"'We've developed a number of applications so far, and we're not even sure yet
of all we can do with it,' said Waldren, president of W. Industries. 'But
we're sure having fun trying.'"

  Matt Drury
  Forum Staff




#: 21569 S13/Virtual Reality
    14-Nov-91  10:13:00
Sb: #21563-Position Sensors
Fm: Matt Drury 75300,1610
To: Robert F. O'Connor 70314,2525

Robert,

All you need to do is upload the press release - with proper title, keywords
(include VR for this section), and description, giving credit to the LOGITECH
Forum - to library 2 here, and I will copy it into library 13.

  Matt Drury
  Forum Staff




#: 21572 S13/Virtual Reality
    14-Nov-91  10:42:38
Sb: Language
Fm: Alexander Schipal 76137,326
To: All


What about doing the software in C++ instead of C ?

The C++ 2.0 language definition is stable now, Borland C++ looks OK and
Microsoft C/C++ 7.0 will - hopefully - turn up sometime next year.
Macs/Ataris/Amigas should have comparable compilers by now.

There's nothing more object-oriented than constructing a virtual world !

It would also do the C people (including myself) good to do some object
oriented programming, because that's where a programmer's money will come from
in the next ten years. Learning experience ! Once you know how to handle it,
C++ is just more efficient and productive than C.

OTOH, C++ certainly has some acceptance problems, not everybody wants to cough
up the money for a new compiler, and C++ might just slow down the real work
here.

Another idea: Some kind of object-oriented database module is necessary for
keeping track of all the virtual thingies, their possible behaviour (methods)
and interactions. That's a tricky one. Are there some DB gurus around ?

One of the most fascinating and daunting characteristics of VR software is
it's potentially limitless hierarchy of objects, rules and relationships.
Maybe we should open PHILOSOPHY and FLAME threads, eh?

#: 21573 S13/Virtual Reality
    14-Nov-91  10:53:13
Sb: #21533-Virtual Reality Forum
Fm: Dan Farmer 70703,1632
To: John Eagan/VR 76130,2225

Thanks for the welcome, John. Will I be jumping into the fray?  Don't know
yet.  I know it took me longer to capture the mail from this area than it did
from Fractals and Raytracing combined.  I don't even know if I'll have time to
keep up with reading the message base here!

    -Dan

#: 21581 S13/Virtual Reality
    14-Nov-91  11:23:50
Sb: #VR in Carnivals
Fm: Alexander Schipal 76137,326
To: Matt Drury 75300,1610 (X)


Matt, the "Virtuality" gear is on display in the Trocadero amusement center at
Piccadilly Circus, London. If anybody happens to be in London, this is
certainly worth a visit. There are four linked "sitdown" vehiclesimulation
type units.  In the current game you control a robot biped and shoot at, or
bump into, robots controlled by other players. Neat stuff! The hardware looks
very slick and professional. The helmets are quite heavy, but that's okay for
a 5 minute arcade game.

I've heard there are two linked "standup" units in Covent Garden amusement
center that are in plexiglass cages on opposite ends of a restaurant. The
eaters have a laugh seeing the players doing strange contortions and groping
around in thin air.

The company's phone number is 0533 542 127, and the president is one
Dr.Walden. They first displayed "Virtuality" at last year's Computer Graphics
exhibition in London. It was the first low cost arcade VR system in the world.

BTW, I'm going to upload a file with short descriptions, including address and
phone #, of companies doing VR systems, components or consulting.

There is 1 Reply.

#: 21584 S13/Virtual Reality
    14-Nov-91  11:58:04
Sb: #21581-VR in Carnivals
Fm: Matt Drury 75300,1610
To: Alexander Schipal 76137,326

Alexander,

Please feel free to upload any information you have on the company that
created "Virtuality."

  Matt Drury
  Forum Staff