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2021-02-28T03:38:32 #kisslinux <testuser_[m]> hi
2021-02-28T05:34:47 #kisslinux <midfavila>  Hello again
2021-02-28T06:19:00 #kisslinux <testuser_[m]> https://voidlinux.org/news/2021/02/OpenSSL.html
2021-02-28T06:20:06 #kisslinux <midfavila> isn't openssl known for having gaping security holes
2021-02-28T06:20:14 #kisslinux <midfavila> like isn't that why the obsd people forked it
2021-02-28T06:20:14 #kisslinux <varbhat> i think that we must also move to openssl
2021-02-28T06:20:28 #kisslinux <varbhat> but,there is perl
2021-02-28T06:20:29 #kisslinux <varbhat> uhhhh
2021-02-28T06:21:52 #kisslinux <testuser_[m]> That was in 2014
2021-02-28T06:22:57 #kisslinux <midfavila> well, if it's still the case...
2021-02-28T06:23:36 #kisslinux <midfavila> i dunno. every system I've seen drop it has been in the name of convenience
2021-02-28T06:24:41 #kisslinux <varbhat> i think that openssl is more secure than libressl at this point
2021-02-28T06:24:53 #kisslinux <midfavila> well let's check the CVE database
2021-02-28T06:24:53 #kisslinux <varbhat> but,openssl requires perl for building currently
2021-02-28T06:27:38 #kisslinux <testuser_[m]> the openssl cve page on repology is HUGE
2021-02-28T06:27:43 #kisslinux <midfavila> not sure how reliable the stats are for this site
2021-02-28T06:27:43 #kisslinux <midfavila> but
2021-02-28T06:27:51 #kisslinux <midfavila> https://www.cvedetails.com/product/383/Openssl-Openssl.html?vendor_id=217
2021-02-28T06:27:59 #kisslinux <midfavila> this is ~122 CVEs since 2014 alone
2021-02-28T06:28:12 #kisslinux <midfavila> and libressl has, uh
2021-02-28T06:28:13 #kisslinux <midfavila> seven
2021-02-28T06:28:15 #kisslinux <midfavila> https://www.cvedetails.com/product/30688/Openbsd-Libressl.html?vendor_id=97
2021-02-28T06:28:22 #kisslinux <midfavila> so yeah
2021-02-28T06:28:37 #kisslinux <midfavila> i'd go with libressl if I cared about security, assuming this site is accurate
2021-02-28T06:29:15 #kisslinux <midfavila> also from what I understand the libressl codebase has much, much higher standards than the openssl codebase
2021-02-28T06:29:15 #kisslinux <testuser_[m]> https://repology.org/project/libressl/cves
2021-02-28T06:29:15 #kisslinux <testuser_[m]> https://repology.org/project/openssl/cves
2021-02-28T06:29:41 #kisslinux <midfavila> Hahaha, holy shit-
2021-02-28T06:30:03 #kisslinux <midfavila> openssl-lets btfo'd
2021-02-28T06:30:13 #kisslinux <varbhat> probably because of less usage?
2021-02-28T06:30:21 #kisslinux <varbhat> more eyes,more bugs
2021-02-28T06:30:27 #kisslinux <testuser_[m]> yeah
2021-02-28T06:30:29 #kisslinux <testuser_[m]> i think so too
2021-02-28T06:30:50 #kisslinux <midfavila> it's possible, but I doubt that that's the whole story
2021-02-28T06:31:17 #kisslinux <midfavila> openbsd is supposed to be supremely secure, right? and they have a history of making vulnerabilities in their software immediately known
2021-02-28T06:42:11 #kisslinux <varbhat> last time,i have heard, libressl didn't implement some of the cryptos and openssl implemented it
2021-02-28T06:43:09 #kisslinux <midfavila> having an implementation doesn't mean anything if it just introduces more vulns
2021-02-28T06:43:12 #kisslinux * midfavila shrugs
2021-02-28T06:44:00 #kisslinux <kiedtl> libressl doesn't implement TLS 1.3, last time I checked.
2021-02-28T06:44:28 #kisslinux <kiedtl> Also, the development on OpenSSL has picked up again after the last security breach. There's just no reason for libressl to exist anymore IMHO
2021-02-28T06:44:51 #kisslinux <kiedtl> imho the openbsd folks were a bit hasty in forking openssl
2021-02-28T06:45:51 #kisslinux * varbhat too feels the same
2021-02-28T06:48:08 #kisslinux <kiedtl> https://lwn.net/Articles/841664/
2021-02-28T06:49:43 #kisslinux <kiedtl> Now, if only OpenSSL had libtls.
2021-02-28T06:49:55 #kisslinux <kiedtl> libtls was such a breeze to use compared to the classic api
2021-02-28T06:52:19 #kisslinux <varbhat> Dilyn, Should we migrate to use openssl?
2021-02-28T06:52:33 #kisslinux <varbhat> I think that it's good thing
2021-02-28T06:52:54 #kisslinux <midfavila> you can always just package it yourself
2021-02-28T06:53:46 #kisslinux <kiedtl> yeah, we can stick with libressl for now
2021-02-28T06:55:17 #kisslinux <midfavila> besides, if the main reason to switch to openssl is that it's more widely supported, that's... not exactly in line with KISS' goals. then again there's the whole "favor practicality over ideals" thing
2021-02-28T06:55:32 #kisslinux <midfavila> idk
2021-02-28T06:57:15 #kisslinux <kiedtl> I dunno, the only reasons I see to stick with libressl is a) it's leaner b) doesnt need perl
2021-02-28T06:57:19 #kisslinux <testuser_[m]> we don't need patches for most packages on KISS for libressl anyways
2021-02-28T06:57:26 #kisslinux <testuser_[m]> only rust i think?
2021-02-28T06:57:27 #kisslinux <midfavila> well, lean is a huge advantage when it comes to kiss
2021-02-28T06:57:30 #kisslinux <testuser_[m]> and busybox
2021-02-28T06:57:40 #kisslinux <midfavila> the lack of perl, I don't think is as big of a deal
2021-02-28T06:57:48 #kisslinux <midfavila> considering that you need perl to build kernels anyway
2021-02-28T06:58:08 #kisslinux <testuser_[m]> you can patch out perl from the kernel build
2021-02-28T06:58:11 #kisslinux <kiedtl> using libressl comes with disadvantages too though, which are enumerated in the articles linked here
2021-02-28T06:58:16 #kisslinux <midfavila> if you use the stock kernel sure
2021-02-28T06:58:42 #kisslinux <midfavila> idk at the end of the day i think it's best to stick with the leaner option and then provide openssl as a down the road option
2021-02-28T06:59:15 #kisslinux <kiedtl> true
2021-02-28T06:59:21 #kisslinux <kiedtl> this article, too: https://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/841664/0ba4265680b9dadf/
2021-02-28T07:03:38 #kisslinux <kiedtl> oops linked same article twice
2021-02-28T07:04:17 #kisslinux <midfavila> yeah I was gonna say
2021-02-28T07:23:42 #kisslinux <konimex> thing is, if you going to provide 2 different SSL implementations, it's going to be a PITA in the long run (especially dealing with a library)
2021-02-28T07:23:52 #kisslinux <konimex> you can't just "provide openssl as a down the road option"
2021-02-28T07:28:05 #kisslinux <midfavila> if you say so
2021-02-28T07:31:28 #kisslinux <systemE> offer the alternative implementation as a docker container
2021-02-28T07:31:38 #kisslinux <systemE> Oh hi
2021-02-28T07:37:15 #kisslinux <testuser_[m]> hi
2021-02-28T08:11:57 #kisslinux <midfavila> good god why are there so few good portable linux machines
2021-02-28T08:12:13 #kisslinux <midfavila> just give me a 2020 re-imagining of the Zaurus SL-5500
2021-02-28T08:12:20 #kisslinux <midfavila> s/2020/2021
2021-02-28T08:12:24 #kisslinux <midfavila> keep forgetting it's $YEAR
2021-02-28T08:13:35 #kisslinux <midfavila> but yeah how fucking hard is it to slap a screen, SoC and keyboard together into a sliding case and throw gahnoonix onto it
2021-02-28T08:13:55 #kisslinux <systemE> i bought my wife the new macbook pro air with the m1 arm chip
2021-02-28T08:14:01 #kisslinux <systemE> gets 2+ batt life no fan
2021-02-28T08:14:05 #kisslinux <systemE> 20+*
2021-02-28T08:14:20 #kisslinux <midfavila> my toughbook can do that p easily
2021-02-28T08:14:23 #kisslinux <systemE> meanwhile I'm hacking on 10 year old dell laptop with stickers on it
2021-02-28T08:14:53 #kisslinux <systemE> I got a 97WHR extended battery, + 30WHR battery in the cdrom tray that i removed
2021-02-28T08:15:19 #kisslinux <midfavila> oh geez I'm not used to working with watt-hours
2021-02-28T08:15:41 #kisslinux <systemE> weighs a lot more more and runs hotter, have to clean the fan once a year, keyboard sucks and basically its ugly
2021-02-28T08:15:46 #kisslinux <systemE> macos made a nice machien
2021-02-28T08:15:53 #kisslinux <systemE> but problem is: mac :(
2021-02-28T08:16:13 #kisslinux <systemE> Apple made a nice machine, but the problem is: macos ... There we go.
2021-02-28T08:16:29 #kisslinux <midfavila> if apple didn't charge an arm, a leg, your student loans, and a mortgage, and they actually made durable, easy to repair hardware that wasn't locked down to shit
2021-02-28T08:16:32 #kisslinux <midfavila> then maybe I'd be interested
2021-02-28T08:16:44 #kisslinux <systemE> dude that new macbook book air m1 was cheap
2021-02-28T08:16:53 #kisslinux <midfavila> define "cheap"
2021-02-28T08:16:55 #kisslinux <systemE> like 900 bucks a new mac, 8 cores, 16GB ram IIRC
2021-02-28T08:17:03 #kisslinux <systemE> for a mac ... that's cheap
2021-02-28T08:17:08 #kisslinux <midfavila> see
2021-02-28T08:17:11 #kisslinux <midfavila> here's the thing yeah
2021-02-28T08:17:14 #kisslinux <midfavila> that's eight ARM cores
2021-02-28T08:17:21 #kisslinux <midfavila> so it's lower overall compute power
2021-02-28T08:17:28 #kisslinux <systemE> IDK man I think it kicks ass
2021-02-28T08:17:30 #kisslinux <systemE> I gotta be honest
2021-02-28T08:17:33 #kisslinux <midfavila> don't get me wrong
2021-02-28T08:17:39 #kisslinux <midfavila> the M1 has a really cool system design
2021-02-28T08:17:46 #kisslinux <midfavila> what with an ARM CPU and a pile of coprocs
2021-02-28T08:17:56 #kisslinux <midfavila> i think that for laptops that idea holds a lot of merit
2021-02-28T08:18:10 #kisslinux <systemE> yea
2021-02-28T08:18:14 #kisslinux <midfavila> but like, thing is, I could build a xeon workstation and get a ruggedized laptop for 900USD
2021-02-28T08:18:36 #kisslinux <systemE> I just spent 4 hours diffing and following includes of a gigantic nginx and php configuration repo
2021-02-28T08:18:36 #kisslinux <midfavila> and the laptop would blow it out of the water in terms of portable stuff, and the workstation would blow it out of the water in terms of performance
2021-02-28T08:18:44 #kisslinux <systemE> Sorry if I'm a little fuzzy in the head
2021-02-28T08:18:47 #kisslinux <midfavila> np
2021-02-28T08:19:04 #kisslinux <systemE> Then I refactored the configs against default configs
2021-02-28T08:19:16 #kisslinux <systemE> deciding what settings stay and what can go, things like that
2021-02-28T08:19:25 #kisslinux <systemE> How did I ever get in to this line of work
2021-02-28T08:20:03 #kisslinux <midfavila> probably thought either a) "golly gee I get to work with computers this is awesome" or b) "golly gee I get to make lots of money"
2021-02-28T08:20:21 #kisslinux <systemE> I have a work station that's pretty great, tons of cores, ecc memory, amd gpu gaming card ......... never use it
2021-02-28T08:20:27 #kisslinux <systemE> always glued to this laptop
2021-02-28T08:20:34 #kisslinux <midfavila> for me it's the other way around
2021-02-28T08:20:49 #kisslinux <systemE> i can't stand sitting in an office chair all day
2021-02-28T08:21:01 #kisslinux <systemE> I lounge around on the couch, move to my office, then the kitchen, then the bedroom
2021-02-28T08:21:03 #kisslinux <midfavila> that's because office chairs are ass
2021-02-28T08:21:07 #kisslinux <systemE> laptop juts follows me around
2021-02-28T08:21:17 #kisslinux <midfavila> i've got this nice wingback armchair at my desk
2021-02-28T08:21:30 #kisslinux <midfavila> probably like 1950s-60s era
2021-02-28T08:21:38 #kisslinux <systemE> smoke break
2021-02-28T08:21:51 #kisslinux <midfavila> sonic sez: smokin's bad fer u
2021-02-28T08:27:36 #kisslinux <systemE> yea
2021-02-28T08:27:42 #kisslinux <systemE> trying to quit
2021-02-28T08:28:24 #kisslinux <midfavila> that's good
2021-02-28T08:28:28 #kisslinux <midfavila> hopefully it works out
2021-02-28T08:28:43 #kisslinux <midfavila> speaking of addictive substances I believe it's time for me to partake of my tea
2021-02-28T08:28:48 #kisslinux <midfavila> one moment
2021-02-28T08:31:14 #kisslinux <midfavila> okay we're back
2021-02-28T08:34:47 #kisslinux <systemE> oh man i worked 73 hours in the last 6 days
2021-02-28T08:34:58 #kisslinux <midfavila> that's brutal
2021-02-28T08:34:59 #kisslinux <systemE> just calculating hours here
2021-02-28T08:35:40 #kisslinux <systemE> yea now you know why i smoked
2021-02-28T08:36:02 #kisslinux <systemE> i have a pile of empty rockstar cans in my office that is rediculous
2021-02-28T08:36:08 #kisslinux <midfavila> . -.
2021-02-28T08:36:25 #kisslinux <midfavila> I had an energy drink, uh, once
2021-02-28T08:36:29 #kisslinux <midfavila> wasn't even the whole can
2021-02-28T08:36:40 #kisslinux <midfavila> just a few mouthfuls. had the shakes for like three days afterward
2021-02-28T08:36:44 #kisslinux <midfavila> haven't touched one since
2021-02-28T08:38:05 #kisslinux <systemE> im at the point where they juts dont do anything
2021-02-28T08:38:20 #kisslinux <systemE> but if i dont have one in the morning i dont really function right in the head
2021-02-28T08:38:29 #kisslinux <midfavila> yeah they do that to you
2021-02-28T08:38:32 #kisslinux <systemE> need to take a week and just sleep in a dark room, get equalized
2021-02-28T08:38:42 #kisslinux <systemE> with ear plugs in
2021-02-28T08:38:46 #kisslinux <systemE> "Dad's detoxing"
2021-02-28T08:38:50 #kisslinux <systemE> from ... caffeine
2021-02-28T08:38:51 #kisslinux <systemE> lol
2021-02-28T08:39:06 #kisslinux <midfavila> gonna have to switch to zero sugar
2021-02-28T08:39:10 #kisslinux <midfavila> embrace the boomer feed
2021-02-28T08:39:15 #kisslinux <systemE> lol
2021-02-28T08:53:39 #kisslinux <FriendlyNeighbor> Hi everyone
2021-02-28T08:54:05 #kisslinux <FriendlyNeighbor> re: the ssl discussion above, I don't think that is a good idea
2021-02-28T08:55:52 #kisslinux <FriendlyNeighbor> OpenSSL is a giant codebase with lots of legacy. That's where a lot of those vulns are coming from. One of LibreSSL's primary goals was to strip out the swathes of legacy code that literally nobody is using anymore
2021-02-28T08:56:32 #kisslinux * midfavila nods
2021-02-28T08:57:08 #kisslinux <FriendlyNeighbor> Plus its maintainers are pretty much just more attentive like for the rest of OpenBSD
2021-02-28T08:57:50 #kisslinux <FriendlyNeighbor> So unless there's a lot of maintainaince overhead going into maintaining patches for making thinks libressl compatible, I don't think that's something even worth doing
2021-02-28T08:58:38 #kisslinux <FriendlyNeighbor> And even in that case it has to be weighed against the cost of maintaining libtls or the old openssl API, as the linled void article itself mentions
2021-02-28T09:00:39 #kisslinux <FriendlyNeighbor> BTW I came here to ask if I could open an issue on the kiss-community github for wayland
2021-02-28T09:00:43 #kisslinux <midfavila> no
2021-02-28T09:00:54 #kisslinux <FriendlyNeighbor> Like, I know that the maintainers have no immediate plans to shift to it
2021-02-28T09:00:57 #kisslinux <midfavila> at least in regards to adopting it as part of core
2021-02-28T09:01:04 #kisslinux <midfavila> drew devault already asked the OG BDFL
2021-02-28T09:01:21 #kisslinux <FriendlyNeighbor> But for when we do, maybe we should have a plan or something
2021-02-28T09:01:31 #kisslinux <midfavila> answer was "most people would need to run xwayland anyway so all you're doing is adding more layers of abstraction"
2021-02-28T09:01:44 #kisslinux <necromansy> there's a couple of user repos that do a decent job, including one run by the current BDFL
2021-02-28T09:01:52 #kisslinux <midfavila> and honestly, nuclear take, but I don't think most people will switch to wayland
2021-02-28T09:01:58 #kisslinux <midfavila> if they do it'll be as part of GNOME or KDE
2021-02-28T09:02:01 #kisslinux <necromansy> so i..think we should pre good with a landing plan if we switch
2021-02-28T09:02:07 #kisslinux <necromansy> also yeah  that
2021-02-28T09:02:24 #kisslinux <midfavila> unless you use a meme tiler or one of those DEs there's no real reason to switch
2021-02-28T09:02:30 #kisslinux <midfavila> and a fair number of reasons not to
2021-02-28T09:02:33 #kisslinux * midfavila shrugs
2021-02-28T09:02:43 #kisslinux <midfavila> tl;dr waylets gtfo
2021-02-28T09:02:45 #kisslinux <FriendlyNeighbor> I don't think it will make much of a difference to anyone honestly, but that's just me
2021-02-28T09:02:59 #kisslinux <midfavila> i would have to recreate my entire workflow from the bottom up
2021-02-28T09:03:07 #kisslinux <midfavila> which is a p big difference
2021-02-28T09:03:29 #kisslinux <FriendlyNeighbor> Fair enough
2021-02-28T09:03:34 #kisslinux <midfavila> i think the only program I use that would work on wayland without xwayland would be my browser
2021-02-28T09:05:42 #kisslinux <FriendlyNeighbor> necromancy the user repos work great for stuff
2021-02-28T09:05:53 #kisslinux <FriendlyNeighbor> But somechanges will have to be made in core
2021-02-28T09:06:01 #kisslinux <testuser_[m]> like
2021-02-28T09:06:12 #kisslinux <FriendlyNeighbor> Like removing the disable-xwayland flag from xorg-server
2021-02-28T09:06:37 #kisslinux <midfavila> if you want it removed, fork the package and remove it yourself
2021-02-28T09:06:43 #kisslinux <testuser_[m]> yeah
2021-02-28T09:06:44 #kisslinux <FriendlyNeighbor> And adding the wayland platform flag to mesa (though that doesn't seem to be needed? My setup works without it)
2021-02-28T09:07:13 #kisslinux <FriendlyNeighbor> I am doing that for now
2021-02-28T09:07:16 #kisslinux <midfavila> any KISS user who wants wayland has the necessary savvy to set it up, and vice versa for X11 users. there's no need to cast a wide net
2021-02-28T09:07:39 #kisslinux <testuser_[m]> or you could just ask dilyn if he's ok with adding something like `kiss list wayland-something && xwayland=true` to the official repo
2021-02-28T09:08:05 #kisslinux <FriendlyNeighbor> Just wanted to check where opinions were on officially planning for wayland
2021-02-28T09:08:36 #kisslinux <midfavila> said opinions don't really exist
2021-02-28T09:08:44 #kisslinux <midfavila> use it if you wanna, otherwise don't
2021-02-28T09:08:50 #kisslinux <midfavila> 's your box, my guy
2021-02-28T09:08:53 #kisslinux <FriendlyNeighbor> testuser_[m]: I don't think a conditional is required there, xwayland is a pretty light addition to the core server
2021-02-28T09:09:11 #kisslinux <necromansy> its an unneeded one for base tho, which is the point
2021-02-28T09:09:17 #kisslinux <midfavila> ^
2021-02-28T09:09:18 #kisslinux <necromansy> most people run x11
2021-02-28T09:09:30 #kisslinux <midfavila> KISS packages tend to be built as a minimum viable product
2021-02-28T09:09:43 #kisslinux <midfavila> any extraneous fat needs to be trimmed as a matter of principle
2021-02-28T09:10:55 #kisslinux <FriendlyNeighbor> I'm not saying that it would have to be included now
2021-02-28T09:11:06 #kisslinux <midfavila> unless dilyn says yes, the answer is no
2021-02-28T09:11:11 #kisslinux <FriendlyNeighbor> I meant writing stuff out as part of a roadmap
2021-02-28T09:11:18 #kisslinux <midfavila> there isn't a roadmap
2021-02-28T09:11:23 #kisslinux <testuser_[m]> roadmap for what
2021-02-28T09:11:26 #kisslinux <testuser_[m]> kiss is complete
2021-02-28T09:11:29 #kisslinux <midfavila> ^
2021-02-28T09:11:31 #kisslinux <necromansy> kiss core is pretty much in maintaince mode rn yeah
2021-02-28T09:11:48 #kisslinux <midfavila> like I've been saying for ages
2021-02-28T09:11:53 #kisslinux <midfavila> don't think of KISS as a distro like arch
2021-02-28T09:11:54 #kisslinux <FriendlyNeighbor> For wayland, eventually. In case people are interested obviously. I'm not forcing my opinion on anyone lol
2021-02-28T09:11:59 #kisslinux <midfavila> think of it as a meta distro akin to gentoo
2021-02-28T09:12:00 #kisslinux <travankor> FriendlyNeighbor: there's a wayland repo
2021-02-28T09:12:06 #kisslinux <necromansy> lol nah no-one saying you are
2021-02-28T09:12:08 #kisslinux <necromansy> dw!
2021-02-28T09:12:38 #kisslinux <FriendlyNeighbor> yeah ik haha
2021-02-28T09:12:49 #kisslinux <travankor> FriendlyNeighbor: https://github.com/dilyn-corner/KISS-me/tree/master/wayland
2021-02-28T09:13:02 #kisslinux <necromansy> definitely the best user repo for it
2021-02-28T09:13:33 #kisslinux <FriendlyNeighbor> travankor: yeah, I do know about that one
2021-02-28T09:14:05 #kisslinux <travankor> so what was your question?
2021-02-28T09:14:40 #kisslinux <travankor> i don't think wayland is in scope for the main repos
2021-02-28T09:14:50 #kisslinux <FriendlyNeighbor> Creating a roadmap for eventually having wayland as a primary display server in kiss-core
2021-02-28T09:15:02 #kisslinux <midfavila> there *isn't* a primary display server
2021-02-28T09:15:08 #kisslinux <midfavila> xorg is just provided as a convenience
2021-02-28T09:15:41 #kisslinux <midfavila> the only thing that makes the main repos "official" is that the BDFL directly manages them
2021-02-28T09:16:19 #kisslinux <travankor> I'm using waymeme right now, but Xorg is definitely more stable and mature overall
2021-02-28T09:16:48 #kisslinux <FriendlyNeighbor> midfavila: fair point
2021-02-28T09:17:05 #kisslinux <travankor> stuff like urgency support or activation isn't even supported by wayalnd
2021-02-28T09:17:17 #kisslinux <travankor> as of now*
2021-02-28T09:17:18 #kisslinux <midfavila> just give them another ten years
2021-02-28T09:17:25 #kisslinux <midfavila> i'm sure it'll be added Soon:tm:
2021-02-28T09:18:55 #kisslinux <testuser_[m]> no you'll have to implement it in your compositor
2021-02-28T09:19:00 #kisslinux <midfavila> fuck that's right
2021-02-28T09:19:29 #kisslinux <midfavila> gotta make the compositor developers reinvent the wheel every other week
2021-02-28T09:19:40 #kisslinux <necromansy> tbh im not really keen on forced into using a compositor
2021-02-28T09:19:53 #kisslinux <midfavila> neither am I
2021-02-28T09:19:55 #kisslinux <necromansy> i know wayland is more efficient than xorg *using* one
2021-02-28T09:20:00 #kisslinux <necromansy> but uuh, i dont use one
2021-02-28T09:20:01 #kisslinux <necromansy> in xorg
2021-02-28T09:20:28 #kisslinux <midfavila> i just use xcompmgr
2021-02-28T09:20:32 #kisslinux <midfavila> there's no reason to use picom or compton
2021-02-28T09:20:52 #kisslinux <necromansy> what dya use it for?
2021-02-28T09:21:12 #kisslinux <midfavila> beyond preventing screen-tearing? not a ton
2021-02-28T09:21:18 #kisslinux <midfavila> sometimes drop shadows if I'm in a fancy mood
2021-02-28T09:21:26 #kisslinux <midfavila> but it's nice because it usually hovers around 5mb RAM usage
2021-02-28T09:21:37 #kisslinux <midfavila> compared to picom which is "lightweight" and uses ten times that
2021-02-28T09:22:04 #kisslinux <necromansy> i dont rly notice screen tearing but im not doing a lot graphically short of looking at plots and watching yt
2021-02-28T09:22:19 #kisslinux <travankor> picom's gotta support dat kawase blur, rounded corners, and other ricer toys
2021-02-28T09:22:29 #kisslinux <midfavila> right sorry
2021-02-28T09:22:38 #kisslinux <midfavila> how could I forget all the r/unixporn users
2021-02-28T09:22:48 #kisslinux <midfavila> "hey reddit rate my CFLAGS!"
2021-02-28T09:22:57 #kisslinux <midfavila> smh
2021-02-28T09:25:28 #kisslinux <travankor> tfw not using -funroll-all-loops and -march=native
2021-02-28T09:25:35 #kisslinux <systemE> I didn't use a composer for a really long time until work made me use zoom
2021-02-28T09:25:44 #kisslinux <systemE> zoom screen sharing is broken with a compositor
2021-02-28T09:25:57 #kisslinux <midfavila> cringe and proprietary-pilled
2021-02-28T09:25:59 #kisslinux <systemE> i think it's a legimate use of an xorg compositor
2021-02-28T09:26:04 #kisslinux <midfavila> you need to btfo your boss
2021-02-28T09:26:09 #kisslinux <midfavila> assert dominance
2021-02-28T09:26:09 #kisslinux <systemE> i researched a little bit what a compositor actually does
2021-02-28T09:26:24 #kisslinux <systemE> they have to do with stacking windows and stuff
2021-02-28T09:26:28 #kisslinux <midfavila> "this is a free software company now"
2021-02-28T09:26:31 #kisslinux <midfavila> and I mean, yes and no
2021-02-28T09:26:33 #kisslinux <necromansy> does arch default install one with xorg-server?
2021-02-28T09:26:46 #kisslinux <systemE> and zoom was all glitched / black screen when you alt-tab during a screen share
2021-02-28T09:26:52 #kisslinux <midfavila> they act as an intermediary between the X clients and X server
2021-02-28T09:26:56 #kisslinux <systemE> turn on a compositor and poof screen share works again
2021-02-28T09:27:04 #kisslinux <necromansy> ahhh when alt-tabbing
2021-02-28T09:27:08 #kisslinux <necromansy> thats why i never noticed it
2021-02-28T09:27:16 #kisslinux <midfavila> takes the display from the clients, performs some sort of transformation, paints that onto a "canvas" and then pushes that to X
2021-02-28T09:27:22 #kisslinux <systemE> im just using zoom from chromium and happy enough with it, didn't have to install the propreietary codes
2021-02-28T09:27:35 #kisslinux <midfavila> google botnet
2021-02-28T09:27:37 #kisslinux <midfavila> smh
2021-02-28T09:27:43 #kisslinux <systemE> lol
2021-02-28T09:29:45 #kisslinux <midfavila> man I wish seamonkey still supported gtk2 and alsa
2021-02-28T09:32:30 #kisslinux <midfavila> it's like firefox but not cringe
2021-02-28T09:35:28 #kisslinux <travankor> does it have rust?
2021-02-28T09:35:42 #kisslinux <testuser_[m]> no but it needs gcc9 right ?
2021-02-28T09:36:20 #kisslinux <midfavila> it doesn't use rust afaik
2021-02-28T09:36:25 #kisslinux <midfavila> and yes it needs gcc9
2021-02-28T09:36:32 #kisslinux <midfavila> but fwiw I have it packaged and building
2021-02-28T09:36:35 #kisslinux <midfavila> gcc9 that is
2021-02-28T09:39:06 #kisslinux <midfavila> but yeah seamonkey is extremely based
2021-02-28T09:45:16 #kisslinux <travankor> smh luke smith is shilling brave these days
2021-02-28T09:45:24 #kisslinux <midfavila> he's always shilled brave
2021-02-28T09:45:34 #kisslinux <necromansy> what a dickhead
2021-02-28T09:45:40 #kisslinux <travankor> oh i never noticed till now lol
2021-02-28T09:45:40 #kisslinux <midfavila> "it's totally great guys if you let them track you they pay me"
2021-02-28T09:45:51 #kisslinux <midfavila> that's one of his lukewarm takes imho
2021-02-28T09:45:55 #kisslinux <midfavila> no pun intended
2021-02-28T09:46:01 #kisslinux <necromansy> heheh
2021-02-28T09:46:21 #kisslinux <midfavila> i just use a fork of pale meme
2021-02-28T09:46:44 #kisslinux <necromansy> im just using FF coz im lazy
2021-02-28T09:46:53 #kisslinux <midfavila> Cuh-RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIINGE
2021-02-28T09:46:59 #kisslinux <midfavila> -Luke
2021-02-28T09:47:11 #kisslinux <midfavila> how will you collect your BAT
2021-02-28T09:48:11 #kisslinux <necromansy> s'aight, i get paid in be a filthy socialist
2021-02-28T09:48:27 #kisslinux <midfavila> carry on comrade
2021-02-28T09:49:08 #kisslinux <necromansy> i remember being shown him by a mate of mine, watching a bunch of his shit and then him shilling his suckless build
2021-02-28T09:49:20 #kisslinux <necromansy> and im like "uh, with an install wizard and everything??"
2021-02-28T09:49:36 #kisslinux <midfavila> "woa no way"
2021-02-28T09:49:48 #kisslinux <midfavila> this is just like wangblows!11!1!!1
2021-02-28T09:50:34 #kisslinux <necromansy> lmao well its more just that it seems counter suckless to bundle a ton of patches together and ship a fork going "here is minimalism tools from a minimalism boi"
2021-02-28T09:50:44 #kisslinux <midfavila> not really
2021-02-28T09:50:47 #kisslinux <midfavila> that's what we do :p
2021-02-28T09:50:58 #kisslinux <necromansy> patches to remove shit tbf :P
2021-02-28T09:51:14 #kisslinux <midfavila> something something less is more
2021-02-28T09:51:33 #kisslinux <necromansy> the amount of questions on r/suckless being like "uh i installed lukesmith's thing and idk why this one thing is borked"
2021-02-28T09:51:48 #kisslinux <midfavila> that's a reddit moment
2021-02-28T09:52:24 #kisslinux <necromansy> you raise valid point
2021-02-28T09:52:36 #kisslinux <midfavila> i think I used reddit like
2021-02-28T09:52:37 #kisslinux <midfavila> twice
2021-02-28T09:52:43 #kisslinux <midfavila> when I was thirteen and super into smash bros
2021-02-28T09:52:51 #kisslinux <midfavila> even back then I was like "wow this is super lame"
2021-02-28T09:53:01 #kisslinux <midfavila> and promptly went back to my phpBB-powered forum
2021-02-28T09:53:12 #kisslinux <necromansy> im *kinda* active as a lurker on some linux/politics subs
2021-02-28T09:53:23 #kisslinux <necromansy> + used to be heaps active on r/shreddit
2021-02-28T09:53:36 #kisslinux <midfavila> at least it's not r/s4s
2021-02-28T09:53:38 #kisslinux <necromansy> now i just kinda mod one sub and lurk
2021-02-28T09:53:48 #kisslinux <necromansy> i dislike reddit's culture
2021-02-28T09:53:50 #kisslinux <necromansy> lol
2021-02-28T09:53:53 #kisslinux <midfavila> i just dislike reddit
2021-02-28T09:53:56 #kisslinux <midfavila> in its entirety
2021-02-28T09:54:01 #kisslinux <midfavila> but at least it's not lobsters
2021-02-28T09:54:12 #kisslinux <testuser_[m]> whats up with lobsters
2021-02-28T09:54:32 #kisslinux <midfavila> it's what you get when you combine quora with reddit and throw in a healthy dose of echo chamber
2021-02-28T09:54:39 #kisslinux <necromansy> ew
2021-02-28T09:54:52 #kisslinux <midfavila> it's fuckin gross
2021-02-28T09:55:18 #kisslinux <travankor> lobsters is run by openbsd people
2021-02-28T09:55:32 #kisslinux <midfavila> afaik there's a """"""""""""""""""""""""feature"""""""""""""""""""""""" where if a user you invite gets banned, so do you. dunno if that's true though
2021-02-28T09:55:38 #kisslinux <midfavila> maybe I'm thinking of another site with that
2021-02-28T09:56:08 #kisslinux <testuser_[m]> why is that a feature
2021-02-28T09:56:19 #kisslinux <testuser_[m]> bruhh
2021-02-28T09:56:24 #kisslinux <midfavila> "helps combat spam and keep the quality of the community high"
2021-02-28T09:56:29 #kisslinux <testuser_[m]> s/hh/h
2021-02-28T09:56:33 #kisslinux <necromansy> probably something to do with the company you keep
2021-02-28T09:56:38 #kisslinux <midfavila> that's exactly it
2021-02-28T09:57:02 #kisslinux <travankor> cancel all the nazis /s
2021-02-28T09:57:07 #kisslinux <midfavila> if you know someone who knows someone who knows someone who's accused of X or has bad opinion Y then the entire chain of users gets fucked
2021-02-28T09:57:09 #kisslinux <necromansy> not too different to booting a friend from coming around if they bring someone who nicks your shit
2021-02-28T09:57:20 #kisslinux <midfavila> no, it's a lot different
2021-02-28T09:57:36 #kisslinux <necromansy> well i mean on paper at least
2021-02-28T09:57:42 #kisslinux <necromansy> its never the same implemented
2021-02-28T09:57:48 #kisslinux <midfavila> it's not the same on paper either
2021-02-28T09:58:00 #kisslinux <necromansy> might just be my intepretation then lol
2021-02-28T09:58:02 #kisslinux <midfavila> in your example it's "something you have done has caused me material harm."
2021-02-28T09:58:11 #kisslinux <necromansy> ok yeah fair
2021-02-28T09:58:15 #kisslinux <necromansy> i see what you mean now
2021-02-28T09:58:18 #kisslinux <necromansy> im just dumb
2021-02-28T09:58:18 #kisslinux <necromansy> ke
2021-02-28T09:58:20 #kisslinux <necromansy> *kek
2021-02-28T09:58:38 #kisslinux <midfavila> in the case of the policy it's "someone you know who knows someone who knows someone said something mean about $GROUP on twitter while they were drunk so you're not allowed on here any more"
2021-02-28T09:59:03 #kisslinux <midfavila> there was a huge flamewar where people tried to cancel the suckless guys too
2021-02-28T09:59:18 #kisslinux <midfavila> over the hostname of their email server
2021-02-28T10:01:12 #kisslinux <necromansy> yeaaah the hostname of their email server is like, minimal, over say, the veiled tiki torch wood hike lmao
2021-02-28T10:01:27 #kisslinux <midfavila> right because torches==bad
2021-02-28T10:01:33 #kisslinux <midfavila> especially if they're germans
2021-02-28T10:02:23 #kisslinux <midfavila> as we all know if they aren't eating wienerschnitzel and drinking lager they're basically committing genocide
2021-02-28T10:02:32 #kisslinux <necromansy> *shrugs* i think thats pretty reductive but its not really the point
2021-02-28T10:02:46 #kisslinux <midfavila> my point is that the nazis don't have a trademark on hiking or torches
2021-02-28T10:03:04 #kisslinux <midfavila> or hiking with torches for that matter
2021-02-28T10:03:20 #kisslinux <necromansy> no ofc not lmao
2021-02-28T10:04:00 #kisslinux <midfavila> arguing that someone adheres to an ideology because of a hike that had torches is like saying they're a nazi because they like fanta or volkswagen. it's just...
2021-02-28T10:04:07 #kisslinux <midfavila> ignorant?
2021-02-28T10:05:07 #kisslinux <midfavila> shit you know what, you could extend that line of thought to the olympic torch relay too
2021-02-28T10:05:09 #kisslinux <necromansy> yeah, there's a lot more to it than just "germans with torches" but talking about it is way outside the pervue of this channel and im not about to be the one to start sledging poltics into it
2021-02-28T10:05:27 #kisslinux * midfavila shrugs
2021-02-28T10:06:22 #kisslinux <midfavila> when they start talking about eugenics and da jooze as an official policy I'll take it more seriously. but, meh
2021-02-28T10:07:39 #kisslinux <necromansy> yeah that i agree with, im personally iffy on 'em, but im also v political so its more on my mind, they're not dropping 4chan memes and /pol/ speak into linux videos like Smith is lmao
2021-02-28T10:07:54 #kisslinux <midfavila> i mean even if they were who cares
2021-02-28T10:08:05 #kisslinux <midfavila> it's a bunch of nerds who develop obscure software as a hobby
2021-02-28T10:08:26 #kisslinux <travankor> is still about lobsters admins?
2021-02-28T10:08:31 #kisslinux <midfavila> no, suckless
2021-02-28T10:08:37 #kisslinux <necromansy> ^
2021-02-28T10:08:59 #kisslinux <travankor> yeah, i think they're really left-wing politically
2021-02-28T10:09:21 #kisslinux <midfavila> tl;dr some dude made some comments on twitter, their email server has a le sus hostname, and some of them went on a hike during a conference
2021-02-28T10:09:33 #kisslinux <midfavila> therefore nazis
2021-02-28T10:09:44 #kisslinux <midfavila> that's the narrative I've seen repeated anyway
2021-02-28T10:09:57 #kisslinux <travankor> are they from germany?
2021-02-28T10:10:00 #kisslinux <merakor> Yes
2021-02-28T10:10:03 #kisslinux <midfavila> yeah most of them
2021-02-28T10:11:10 #kisslinux <merakor> I mean, as a person who conversed with a lot of them, and in the mailing lists, I never had the impression of them being nazis.
2021-02-28T10:11:18 #kisslinux <merakor> They are like super nice on mailing lists
2021-02-28T10:11:23 #kisslinux <midfavila> they're just super low-key my dude
2021-02-28T10:11:36 #kisslinux <midfavila> once you get them talking about the nine gorillion, lemme tell ya
2021-02-28T10:11:58 #kisslinux <merakor> But the email server hostname is really cringe nonetheless
2021-02-28T10:12:05 #kisslinux <necromansy> ^^^^ regardless
2021-02-28T10:12:05 #kisslinux <midfavila> oh it's definitely cringe
2021-02-28T10:12:17 #kisslinux <midfavila> but it's the equivalent of some dude naming his computer "klebold"
2021-02-28T10:13:01 #kisslinux <midfavila> cringe and edge and nothing more
2021-02-28T10:15:28 #kisslinux <midfavila> anyway, tea time again
2021-02-28T10:15:49 #kisslinux <necromansy> heck, do i make coffee
2021-02-28T10:15:51 #kisslinux <necromansy> or nah
2021-02-28T10:16:05 #kisslinux <merakor> tea > coffee
2021-02-28T10:16:11 #kisslinux <midfavila> coffee is cringe
2021-02-28T10:16:21 #kisslinux <midfavila> this is a tea distro
2021-02-28T10:16:27 #kisslinux <necromansy> ok this is bannable offence
2021-02-28T10:16:45 #kisslinux <merakor> lmao
2021-02-28T10:16:59 #kisslinux <necromansy> dirty bean water>>>
2021-02-28T10:17:12 #kisslinux <midfavila> dirty leaf water>>>>>>
2021-02-28T10:17:22 #kisslinux <necromansy> smh
2021-02-28T10:17:27 #kisslinux <midfavila> bite me :P
2021-02-28T10:17:58 #kisslinux <midfavila> one thing I'm considering trying this summer is making homemade sweet tea in my mason jars
2021-02-28T10:18:03 #kisslinux <midfavila> with lemons and all that
2021-02-28T10:18:10 #kisslinux <necromansy> ngl does sound pre dope
2021-02-28T10:18:11 #kisslinux <merakor> I do that with oranges
2021-02-28T10:18:16 #kisslinux <midfavila> orengs
2021-02-28T10:18:35 #kisslinux <necromansy> my fiance did that briefly this summer here
2021-02-28T10:18:59 #kisslinux <midfavila> i can't imagine it's too difficult
2021-02-28T10:19:05 #kisslinux <merakor> midfavila: did you mean #ffa500
2021-02-28T10:19:10 #kisslinux <necromansy> it doesnt it seem it
2021-02-28T10:19:18 #kisslinux <midfavila> yes thank you merakor
2021-02-28T10:19:19 #kisslinux <midfavila> very helpful
2021-02-28T10:19:33 #kisslinux <merakor> sure thing
2021-02-28T10:19:44 #kisslinux <midfavila> but yeah I imagine it's just like
2021-02-28T10:19:57 #kisslinux <midfavila> water, sugar, fruits, stick it in a can, boil it for a while, stick in fridge
2021-02-28T10:20:07 #kisslinux <merakor> Yeah, basically
2021-02-28T10:20:17 #kisslinux <necromansy> chilling coffee is a lot more finnicky
2021-02-28T10:20:25 #kisslinux <midfavila> that's because coffee is l a m e
2021-02-28T10:20:39 #kisslinux <necromansy> no the effort means its worth it :<
2021-02-28T10:20:48 #kisslinux <midfavila> if that was true I'd be using source mage
2021-02-28T10:20:58 #kisslinux <necromansy> fuck
2021-02-28T10:21:03 #kisslinux <midfavila> TO BE FAIR
2021-02-28T10:21:09 #kisslinux <midfavila> i came really really close to using SMGL
2021-02-28T10:21:14 #kisslinux <merakor> I can't prepare coffee at all
2021-02-28T10:21:16 #kisslinux <merakor> I suck at it
2021-02-28T10:21:19 #kisslinux <midfavila> wtf
2021-02-28T10:21:20 #kisslinux <midfavila> how
2021-02-28T10:21:25 #kisslinux <midfavila> it's literally the simplest thing
2021-02-28T10:21:43 #kisslinux <necromansy> i need to get a good tamp for my coffee machine, the one i've got now is trash
2021-02-28T10:21:57 #kisslinux <merakor> I mean depends on the coffee, I don't have a coffee machine
2021-02-28T10:21:59 #kisslinux <midfavila> i just use my drip brewer
2021-02-28T10:22:15 #kisslinux <midfavila> analog coffee machine
2021-02-28T10:22:16 #kisslinux <necromansy> i mean tbf i was drinking freeze dried beans for most of my life
2021-02-28T10:22:17 #kisslinux <merakor> I have a french press
2021-02-28T10:22:28 #kisslinux <midfavila> press presses are cool but they take ages
2021-02-28T10:22:29 #kisslinux <necromansy> *freeze dried grounds
2021-02-28T10:22:31 #kisslinux <necromansy> i should say
2021-02-28T10:22:36 #kisslinux <merakor> I do better tea with the french press than coffee
2021-02-28T10:22:37 #kisslinux <midfavila> s/press presses/french presses/
2021-02-28T10:22:53 #kisslinux <midfavila> 25iq moment
2021-02-28T10:23:02 #kisslinux <necromansy> i am the "idc how it is, its caffiene" type
2021-02-28T10:23:15 #kisslinux <midfavila> at that point just drink those energy shots
2021-02-28T10:23:19 #kisslinux <midfavila> five-hour energy or whatever
2021-02-28T10:23:31 #kisslinux <midfavila> aka heart attack in a can
2021-02-28T10:23:34 #kisslinux <merakor> I like sour and shit coffee type of person
2021-02-28T10:23:46 #kisslinux <merakor> s/like/am I like/
2021-02-28T10:23:58 #kisslinux <midfavila> coffee is... okay
2021-02-28T10:24:04 #kisslinux <midfavila> i find most people make it burnt
2021-02-28T10:24:13 #kisslinux <midfavila> and they press it through the beans too quickly
2021-02-28T10:24:21 #kisslinux <midfavila> so what little flavor there is, is fucking disgusting
2021-02-28T10:24:33 #kisslinux <necromansy> im learning to do it better but yeah my coffee is scuffed
2021-02-28T10:24:48 #kisslinux <merakor> Tea is just good
2021-02-28T10:24:50 #kisslinux <necromansy> my fiance did some barista work so she knows how to make primo unscorched coffee
2021-02-28T10:24:53 #kisslinux * merakor shrugs
2021-02-28T10:25:04 #kisslinux <midfavila> you know what I used to make my coffee with
2021-02-28T10:25:05 #kisslinux <necromansy> look tea is good but im also a coffee fiend
2021-02-28T10:25:11 #kisslinux <midfavila> paper towels and elastic bands
2021-02-28T10:25:19 #kisslinux <necromansy> for filters?
2021-02-28T10:25:21 #kisslinux <midfavila> yes
2021-02-28T10:25:23 #kisslinux <necromansy> interesting
2021-02-28T10:25:30 #kisslinux <midfavila> it unironically worked really well
2021-02-28T10:25:30 #kisslinux <merakor> Oh god
2021-02-28T10:25:38 #kisslinux <merakor> Didn't it dissolve into the coffee?
2021-02-28T10:25:43 #kisslinux <midfavila> ...no?
2021-02-28T10:25:53 #kisslinux <necromansy> if you get strong paper towels it shouldnt
2021-02-28T10:25:56 #kisslinux <midfavila> what kind of paper towels and elastics are you using that it dissolves into the coffee
2021-02-28T10:25:58 #kisslinux <midfavila> holy shit
2021-02-28T10:26:03 #kisslinux <midfavila> alternatively
2021-02-28T10:26:06 #kisslinux <merakor> Okay, I use shit tier paper towels
2021-02-28T10:26:06 #kisslinux <necromansy> itd just drip
2021-02-28T10:26:07 #kisslinux <midfavila> what kind of coffee are you drinking
2021-02-28T10:26:13 #kisslinux <midfavila> and is it legal
2021-02-28T10:26:17 #kisslinux <midfavila> and if not can I get some
2021-02-28T10:26:27 #kisslinux <necromansy> ok im gonna try that at one point, str8 into mason jars
2021-02-28T10:26:38 #kisslinux <merakor> I buy starbucks coffee :P
2021-02-28T10:26:47 #kisslinux <midfavila> I should have guessed
2021-02-28T10:26:49 #kisslinux <necromansy> smh
2021-02-28T10:26:52 #kisslinux <midfavila> I can smell the soy from here
2021-02-28T10:26:54 #kisslinux <midfavila> :p
2021-02-28T10:26:57 #kisslinux <periish[m]> tea is great
2021-02-28T10:27:04 #kisslinux <midfavila> but wait
2021-02-28T10:27:04 #kisslinux <periish[m]> soy is also great
2021-02-28T10:27:06 #kisslinux <midfavila> what if
2021-02-28T10:27:11 #kisslinux <periish[m]> lovely ingredient
2021-02-28T10:27:15 #kisslinux <necromansy> ill just hide my love for vanilla soy lattes
2021-02-28T10:27:16 #kisslinux <midfavila> you take coffee
2021-02-28T10:27:16 #kisslinux <midfavila> and you take tea
2021-02-28T10:27:19 #kisslinux <midfavila> and you make cofftea
2021-02-28T10:27:31 #kisslinux <midfavila> someone should do that
2021-02-28T10:27:35 #kisslinux <necromansy> you could make a really good cinnamon one i reckon
2021-02-28T10:27:35 #kisslinux <periish[m]> sounds horrible
2021-02-28T10:27:38 #kisslinux <merakor> Or turkish coffee, which is different than the usual coffee
2021-02-28T10:27:40 #kisslinux <periish[m]> its been done i reckon
2021-02-28T10:27:43 #kisslinux <midfavila> no way
2021-02-28T10:27:46 #kisslinux <midfavila> this is my OC
2021-02-28T10:27:49 #kisslinux <midfavila> original coffee
2021-02-28T10:27:53 #kisslinux <merakor> Yeah soy is great
2021-02-28T10:27:59 #kisslinux <midfavila> :tm: :r:
2021-02-28T10:28:02 #kisslinux <midfavila> all rights reserved
2021-02-28T10:28:06 #kisslinux <necromansy> soibois unite
2021-02-28T10:28:07 #kisslinux <periish[m]> coffee soda has been done too
2021-02-28T10:28:19 #kisslinux <midfavila> i can't really do plant matter
2021-02-28T10:28:29 #kisslinux <periish[m]> generally plant milks are really useful because they dont go off
2021-02-28T10:28:41 #kisslinux <periish[m]> which is a big plus honestlu
2021-02-28T10:28:42 #kisslinux <midfavila> my diet is like, practically nothing but animal protein
2021-02-28T10:28:50 #kisslinux <necromansy> soy is harder to work with from what i understand tho
2021-02-28T10:29:21 #kisslinux <midfavila> oh and dairy
2021-02-28T10:29:24 #kisslinux <midfavila> i fucking love dairy
2021-02-28T10:29:31 #kisslinux <merakor> I mean, from plant-based shit, milk is the least different thing compared to dairy
2021-02-28T10:29:51 #kisslinux <midfavila> you'll never take my 4% milk from me
2021-02-28T10:29:53 #kisslinux <necromansy> i dont even miss dairy or meat tbh
2021-02-28T10:29:57 #kisslinux <midfavila> Back, vegan
2021-02-28T10:29:58 #kisslinux <merakor> Me neither
2021-02-28T10:29:59 #kisslinux <periish[m]> im not really a drinks person but tofu is lovely
2021-02-28T10:30:01 #kisslinux * midfavila waves a sword around
2021-02-28T10:30:03 #kisslinux <merakor> Obligatory vegan btw
2021-02-28T10:30:13 #kisslinux <necromansy> had some slapper tofu based vietnamese
2021-02-28T10:30:14 #kisslinux <midfavila> i'm like, the anti-vegan
2021-02-28T10:30:19 #kisslinux <merakor> Boo
2021-02-28T10:30:20 #kisslinux <midfavila> only animal products
2021-02-28T10:30:22 #kisslinux <periish[m]> great ingredient, easy to prepare
2021-02-28T10:30:23 #kisslinux <midfavila> come at me fucker
2021-02-28T10:30:27 #kisslinux <necromansy> my fiance is obligatory, im ethically
2021-02-28T10:30:38 #kisslinux <periish[m]> even if nonvegan its lovely
2021-02-28T10:30:46 #kisslinux <midfavila> if canada didn't have such cucked hunting laws I'd just hunt my own meats
2021-02-28T10:30:51 #kisslinux <periish[m]> too few people appreciate this shit
2021-02-28T10:30:58 #kisslinux <necromansy> had some based tofu laksa tonight
2021-02-28T10:31:05 #kisslinux <periish[m]> and seitan! seitan slaps
2021-02-28T10:31:13 #kisslinux <necromansy> seitan is the shit
2021-02-28T10:31:16 #kisslinux <merakor> necromansy: I didn't say obligatory in that way lmao
2021-02-28T10:31:23 #kisslinux <midfavila> but as it is I just buy local stuff. so I at least don't contribute to muh factoree farmin
2021-02-28T10:31:26 #kisslinux <konimex> don't know people made laksa out of tofu
2021-02-28T10:31:39 #kisslinux <merakor> I meant that "I have to say I am vegan or I will die"
2021-02-28T10:31:43 #kisslinux <merakor> Also ethically vegan
2021-02-28T10:31:49 #kisslinux <necromansy> its really just adding tofu to it, the cream is cocunut
2021-02-28T10:31:51 #kisslinux <periish[m]> never had an opppurtunity to cook w it but ive had it in a few restaurants
2021-02-28T10:31:55 #kisslinux <periish[m]> lovely
2021-02-28T10:31:56 #kisslinux <konimex> we just fry them over here and use them as sides
2021-02-28T10:32:35 #kisslinux <midfavila> hmm. that stuff looks pretty good, actually
2021-02-28T10:32:43 #kisslinux <midfavila> i might make some, some time
2021-02-28T10:32:53 #kisslinux <midfavila> looks like chowderized ramen
2021-02-28T10:32:59 #kisslinux <periish[m]> laksa is nice
2021-02-28T10:33:26 #kisslinux <necromansy> ^
2021-02-28T10:33:33 #kisslinux <periish[m]> i actually picked up some vegan beefsteaks yesterday, not knowing what a beefsteak is
2021-02-28T10:33:34 #kisslinux <merakor> I can't eat tofu as it is, but it tastes damn nice when I season it and eat with bunch of veggies
2021-02-28T10:33:45 #kisslinux <midfavila> yeah tofu is fucking awful on its own
2021-02-28T10:33:51 #kisslinux <necromansy> yeah you 100% need to season tofu and fry that shit
2021-02-28T10:33:51 #kisslinux <midfavila> shockingly, rotten beans taste horrible
2021-02-28T10:33:56 #kisslinux <periish[m]> ive eaten silken tofu on its own
2021-02-28T10:34:03 #kisslinux <periish[m]> actually quite nice
2021-02-28T10:34:07 #kisslinux <necromansy> yeah?
2021-02-28T10:34:16 #kisslinux <midfavila> i'd rather live off of white bread and water >.>;
2021-02-28T10:34:19 #kisslinux <periish[m]> yea barely any seasoning
2021-02-28T10:34:20 #kisslinux <necromansy> might give that a whirl, usually been using firm tofu
2021-02-28T10:34:35 #kisslinux <periish[m]> firm tofu on its own would def be acquired taste
2021-02-28T10:34:37 #kisslinux <merakor> Never had silken tofu before
2021-02-28T10:34:50 #kisslinux <periish[m]> silken tofu makes a good egg replacement texturewise
2021-02-28T10:34:56 #kisslinux <periish[m]> scrambled eggs especially
2021-02-28T10:34:57 #kisslinux <necromansy> ^ yeah
2021-02-28T10:35:22 #kisslinux <merakor> I used firm tofu for scrambled eggs all this time
2021-02-28T10:35:29 #kisslinux <merakor> Guess I'll need to look that up
2021-02-28T10:35:38 #kisslinux <merakor> Hard to find tofu where I live
2021-02-28T10:35:41 #kisslinux <periish[m]> id never use firm tofu for that haha
2021-02-28T10:35:42 #kisslinux <midfavila> i think the only veggie substitute I use is minced mushrooms for beef
2021-02-28T10:35:52 #kisslinux <necromansy> thats a decent replacement tbf
2021-02-28T10:35:55 #kisslinux <periish[m]> you can actually scramble silken tofu
2021-02-28T10:36:02 #kisslinux <midfavila> mushrooms are one of the few vegetables that don't make me sick
2021-02-28T10:36:04 #kisslinux <periish[m]> its very soft
2021-02-28T10:36:16 #kisslinux <necromansy> beef strog with mushroom as the beef is good stuff
2021-02-28T10:36:28 #kisslinux <periish[m]> id never categorise mushrooms as a vegetable
2021-02-28T10:36:41 #kisslinux <midfavila> they're definitely not fruit
2021-02-28T10:36:48 #kisslinux <necromansy> well no theyre fungus
2021-02-28T10:37:05 #kisslinux <merakor> I looked silken tofu up, it does look great for scrambled eggs :D
2021-02-28T10:37:08 #kisslinux <periish[m]> yea, unique category
2021-02-28T10:37:12 #kisslinux <midfavila> duckduckgo says fungi are considered veggies when conversing about nutrition
2021-02-28T10:37:13 #kisslinux <periish[m]> it is!
2021-02-28T10:37:20 #kisslinux <midfavila> doctor internet PhD is right
2021-02-28T10:37:32 #kisslinux <periish[m]> they also work in shakshouka
2021-02-28T10:37:39 #kisslinux <necromansy> understandably so, its easier to say veggie
2021-02-28T10:37:41 #kisslinux <midfavila> speaking of plants, corn is a fruit.
2021-02-28T10:37:53 #kisslinux <midfavila> i learned that the other day
2021-02-28T10:37:55 #kisslinux <periish[m]> dunno if im spelling that right, got three layers of translation there
2021-02-28T10:38:29 #kisslinux <periish[m]> seems i am
2021-02-28T10:38:30 #kisslinux <merakor> I really need to learn how to make tofu instead of buying them, that'd be much cheaper
2021-02-28T10:38:42 #kisslinux <midfavila> homemade stuff is always cheaper
2021-02-28T10:38:49 #kisslinux <merakor> Not always
2021-02-28T10:38:49 #kisslinux <periish[m]> i know some folk who might have knowledge re that
2021-02-28T10:38:54 #kisslinux <midfavila> one of my new years' resolutions is to never buy premade stuff if it's something I can make myself
2021-02-28T10:38:58 #kisslinux <periish[m]> want me to ask?
2021-02-28T10:39:06 #kisslinux <midfavila> and uh, I can't think of anything I'd buy from a store around here that wouldn't be cheaper to just make
2021-02-28T10:39:06 #kisslinux <necromansy> i mean id be down to get that info
2021-02-28T10:39:09 #kisslinux <periish[m]> theyre pretty good re sustainability stuff
2021-02-28T10:39:49 #kisslinux <merakor> periish[m]: I never thought I would read shakshouka
2021-02-28T10:39:51 #kisslinux <necromansy> my fiance and i are trying to find ways to improve our sustainability where we can
2021-02-28T10:40:02 #kisslinux <midfavila> step one, stop buying new things
2021-02-28T10:40:05 #kisslinux <periish[m]> merakor: its lovely
2021-02-28T10:40:17 #kisslinux <merakor> periish[m]: Where are you from?
2021-02-28T10:40:27 #kisslinux <necromansy> we already try to avoid that where we can :P
2021-02-28T10:40:29 #kisslinux <periish[m]> I'm ukrainian living in england!
2021-02-28T10:40:36 #kisslinux <merakor> Oh I see!
2021-02-28T10:41:16 #kisslinux <midfavila> pretty much everything I buy is either second-hand that I refurb or made by locals. or both
2021-02-28T10:41:28 #kisslinux <merakor> I have always thought shakshouka was an obscure dish, perhaps because I really don't like it :^)
2021-02-28T10:41:41 #kisslinux <periish[m]> haha, thats fair
2021-02-28T10:41:44 #kisslinux <periish[m]> i quite like it
2021-02-28T10:41:52 #kisslinux <periish[m]> its easy to make and a lovely breakfast
2021-02-28T10:42:37 #kisslinux <merakor> I can't overall eat eggplant, but I like it when it's made with zucchinis instead
2021-02-28T10:42:47 #kisslinux <necromansy> we try to buy second-hand where we can, i should get on top of learning some crafting skills
2021-02-28T10:42:57 #kisslinux <midfavila> woodworking
2021-02-28T10:43:00 #kisslinux <necromansy> yeah
2021-02-28T10:43:13 #kisslinux <midfavila> the semester of woodworking I took a few years back in high school is unironically one of the most useful classes I've ever taken
2021-02-28T10:43:26 #kisslinux <periish[m]> ive never used eggplant in it
2021-02-28T10:43:32 #kisslinux <periish[m]> i dont really like eggplant either
2021-02-28T10:43:33 #kisslinux <midfavila> being able to just like, make a shelf or something, is pretty awesome
2021-02-28T10:43:44 #kisslinux <necromansy> we've got a fuck off lorge wood door from the outback shed at our unit we're wanting to make a table from
2021-02-28T10:43:58 #kisslinux * midfavila nods
2021-02-28T10:44:04 #kisslinux <merakor> periish[m]: Oh, how do you do it then?
2021-02-28T10:44:12 #kisslinux <midfavila> the only big project I've got lined up is sanding and varnishing my desk this summer
2021-02-28T10:44:31 #kisslinux <midfavila> considering disassembling the hutch it came with to make shelves
2021-02-28T10:44:34 #kisslinux <periish[m]> its just using any leftover vegetables really
2021-02-28T10:45:02 #kisslinux <necromansy> neat idea
2021-02-28T10:45:11 #kisslinux <periish[m]> theres a few dishes good for that
2021-02-28T10:45:19 #kisslinux <periish[m]> and shakshouka is among them
2021-02-28T10:46:08 #kisslinux <midfavila> well, the whole desk is geometrical, and it's all either bolted or nailed together. it'd literally just be pulling it apart, sand, varnish, attach mounting brackets (or, more likely, chains) then screw into the wall. maybe an afternoon of work there at most
2021-02-28T10:46:47 #kisslinux <midfavila> not sure if I'll stain though
2021-02-28T10:46:57 #kisslinux <necromansy> yeah fair, we're limited to what we can mount here, being a rental in an *old* weatherboard duplex
2021-02-28T10:47:40 #kisslinux <midfavila> my landlords basically said "as long as it's no bigger than a toonie (two dollar coin, about 3x the size of the average thumb) or it's filled by the time you leave, we don't care)
2021-02-28T10:47:42 #kisslinux <necromansy> but we're tryna get some gardens in buckets/pots going, my phd work and her service work got the better of us this summer tho
2021-02-28T10:48:00 #kisslinux <midfavila> i'd garden but I'm stuck living in the city
2021-02-28T10:48:15 #kisslinux <periish[m]> two dollar coins exist?
2021-02-28T10:48:16 #kisslinux <periish[m]> wow
2021-02-28T10:48:19 #kisslinux <midfavila> in canada they do
2021-02-28T10:48:22 #kisslinux <midfavila> we even have one dollar coins
2021-02-28T10:48:24 #kisslinux <periish[m]> ahh
2021-02-28T10:48:25 #kisslinux <necromansy> same in aus
2021-02-28T10:48:34 #kisslinux <necromansy> commonwealth babbyy
2021-02-28T10:48:38 #kisslinux <midfavila> one dollar coins are loonies, two dollar coins are loonies
2021-02-28T10:48:39 #kisslinux <periish[m]> we have one and two quid coins too
2021-02-28T10:48:46 #kisslinux <midfavila> toonies
2021-02-28T10:48:47 #kisslinux <midfavila> not loonies
2021-02-28T10:48:48 #kisslinux <midfavila> god
2021-02-28T10:48:50 #kisslinux <midfavila> I need to sleep
2021-02-28T10:48:57 #kisslinux <periish[m]> everything here is quantified as quid
2021-02-28T10:49:11 #kisslinux <midfavila> what about pence
2021-02-28T10:49:15 #kisslinux <periish[m]> our denominations are relatively sane here
2021-02-28T10:49:16 #kisslinux <midfavila> or is that deprecated
2021-02-28T10:49:22 #kisslinux <periish[m]> pence are used too
2021-02-28T10:49:27 #kisslinux <periish[m]> quantified as p
2021-02-28T10:49:42 #kisslinux <midfavila> *personally*, I quantify all my currency in mills
2021-02-28T10:49:46 #kisslinux <merakor> periish[m]: Yeah, that's really fair, shakshouka is great with leftovers
2021-02-28T10:49:56 #kisslinux <periish[m]> but you dont ever get quarters or anything like in the us
2021-02-28T10:50:02 #kisslinux <midfavila> weird
2021-02-28T10:50:03 #kisslinux <merakor> Meanwhile here in my country pennies aren't worth shit
2021-02-28T10:50:08 #kisslinux <midfavila> canada has a full suite of coins
2021-02-28T10:50:17 #kisslinux <midfavila> although about a decade ago we retired our penny
2021-02-28T10:50:24 #kisslinux <midfavila> because they cost more to make than they were actually worth
2021-02-28T10:50:33 #kisslinux <necromansy> we've got 5c up to $2 in coins
2021-02-28T10:50:34 #kisslinux <periish[m]> you have a full suite of coins thatre referred to by value due to lacking name
2021-02-28T10:50:39 #kisslinux <merakor> midfavila: lol same here
2021-02-28T10:50:41 #kisslinux <periish[m]> 1p, 2p, 5p, 10p, 20p, 50p
2021-02-28T10:50:43 #kisslinux <necromansy> then 5,10,20,50,100 in plastic notes
2021-02-28T10:50:58 #kisslinux <midfavila> so we've got nickels, dimes, quarters, loonies, and toonies
2021-02-28T10:51:03 #kisslinux <periish[m]> 5, 10, 20, 50 in notes with 50 as paper
2021-02-28T10:51:14 #kisslinux <periish[m]> no one accepts 50
2021-02-28T10:51:15 #kisslinux <midfavila> and then canada has bills from 5-1000
2021-02-28T10:51:21 #kisslinux <midfavila> or maybe they removed the 1000 from circulation
2021-02-28T10:51:22 #kisslinux <necromansy> 10000?
2021-02-28T10:51:22 #kisslinux <jedavies> Wouldn't be surprised if they retire the 1p and 2p soon
2021-02-28T10:51:24 #kisslinux <necromansy> *1000?
2021-02-28T10:51:28 #kisslinux <necromansy> wild
2021-02-28T10:51:29 #kisslinux <midfavila> yeah
2021-02-28T10:51:39 #kisslinux <periish[m]> yea i hope they do
2021-02-28T10:51:59 #kisslinux <midfavila> okay yeah 1000$ bills are t hing
2021-02-28T10:52:00 #kisslinux <midfavila> thing*
2021-02-28T10:52:05 #kisslinux <midfavila> they're just, like
2021-02-28T10:52:05 #kisslinux <periish[m]> removes the exploitative .99 bs
2021-02-28T10:52:07 #kisslinux <midfavila> not used
2021-02-28T10:52:09 #kisslinux <midfavila> lmao
2021-02-28T10:52:13 #kisslinux <necromansy> $100s are rare here
2021-02-28T10:52:17 #kisslinux <midfavila> same
2021-02-28T10:52:24 #kisslinux <midfavila> you don't normally see anything larger than twenties around here
2021-02-28T10:52:36 #kisslinux <periish[m]> yea same here
2021-02-28T10:52:36 #kisslinux <midfavila> if you do people start getting suspicious
2021-02-28T10:52:42 #kisslinux <midfavila> unless it's a bank or something
2021-02-28T10:52:44 #kisslinux <necromansy> fifties here aren't too uncommon
2021-02-28T10:52:51 #kisslinux <necromansy> but our CoL is whack
2021-02-28T10:52:54 #kisslinux <midfavila> most people don't even carry cash any more
2021-02-28T10:53:00 #kisslinux <midfavila> shit, a lot of businesses just don't take it
2021-02-28T10:53:07 #kisslinux <midfavila> it's dumb
2021-02-28T10:53:18 #kisslinux <necromansy> we have places that dont accept card
2021-02-28T10:53:20 #kisslinux <jedavies> periish[m]: Yeah. Also I never understood why they bother issuing £50 notes when nobody accepts them
2021-02-28T10:53:22 #kisslinux <midfavila> but hey at least the local taco place accepts bitcoin
2021-02-28T10:53:26 #kisslinux <midfavila> and monero
2021-02-28T10:53:36 #kisslinux <periish[m]> lol what
2021-02-28T10:53:36 #kisslinux <midfavila> Progress:tm:
2021-02-28T10:53:38 #kisslinux <periish[m]> as an aside
2021-02-28T10:53:39 #kisslinux <midfavila> yeah
2021-02-28T10:53:40 #kisslinux <midfavila> i know
2021-02-28T10:53:44 #kisslinux <necromansy> man fuck cities
2021-02-28T10:53:45 #kisslinux <midfavila> the taco place of all things
2021-02-28T10:53:47 #kisslinux <periish[m]> bitcoin sucks hard
2021-02-28T10:53:48 #kisslinux <midfavila> i used to work there
2021-02-28T10:53:50 #kisslinux <periish[m]> fuck bitcoin
2021-02-28T10:53:53 #kisslinux <midfavila> the owner is super into crypto
2021-02-28T10:53:57 #kisslinux <midfavila> he's also a total fuckwad
2021-02-28T10:54:01 #kisslinux <midfavila> but that's beside the point
2021-02-28T10:54:03 #kisslinux <periish[m]> makes sense
2021-02-28T10:54:07 #kisslinux <necromansy> >into crypto
2021-02-28T10:54:08 #kisslinux <necromansy> checks out
2021-02-28T10:54:15 #kisslinux <periish[m]> youre a fuckwad youre into crypto
2021-02-28T10:54:17 #kisslinux <midfavila> you can be into crypto and not be a total dick
2021-02-28T10:54:24 #kisslinux <periish[m]> or urbit
2021-02-28T10:54:25 #kisslinux <midfavila> it's just that they tend to overlap a lot
2021-02-28T10:54:30 #kisslinux <necromansy> yeah ahaha
2021-02-28T10:54:43 #kisslinux <midfavila> it tends to attract those Silicon Valley types
2021-02-28T10:54:45 #kisslinux <midfavila> and it's super cringe
2021-02-28T10:54:48 #kisslinux <periish[m]> ive never met a non fuckwad into either of those
2021-02-28T10:54:56 #kisslinux <midfavila> like no you idiot I don't take your magic internet money go away
2021-02-28T10:55:12 #kisslinux <midfavila> although for the record I'd be fine if businesses accepted monero
2021-02-28T10:55:17 #kisslinux <necromansy> ive got mates who have dogecoin but they're not fuckheads, just pure geek
2021-02-28T10:55:18 #kisslinux <midfavila> buttcoin, on the other hand
2021-02-28T10:55:19 #kisslinux <periish[m]> doesnt help that magic internet money is awful environmentally
2021-02-28T10:55:23 #kisslinux <midfavila> >dogecoin
2021-02-28T10:55:30 #kisslinux <midfavila> reddit users detected
2021-02-28T10:55:33 #kisslinux <midfavila> and I mean
2021-02-28T10:55:35 #kisslinux <necromansy> yeah crypto servers are v grotty
2021-02-28T10:55:37 #kisslinux <midfavila> here's the thing yeah
2021-02-28T10:55:40 #kisslinux <periish[m]> proof of work sucks powerusage wise
2021-02-28T10:55:45 #kisslinux <midfavila> crypto is a drop in the bucket
2021-02-28T10:55:48 #kisslinux <periish[m]> lots of things are awful environmentally
2021-02-28T10:55:52 #kisslinux <konimex> I honestly don't know what the fuck are dogecoins used for aside of "memes"
2021-02-28T10:55:53 #kisslinux <periish[m]> eh, its less that now
2021-02-28T10:56:01 #kisslinux <midfavila> if you want to actually make a difference, aim your guns at china, silicon valley, and in particular netflix and google
2021-02-28T10:56:12 #kisslinux <midfavila> and dogecoin is used by redditors to donate to events
2021-02-28T10:56:13 #kisslinux <midfavila> that's it
2021-02-28T10:56:18 #kisslinux <necromansy> ^^^
2021-02-28T10:56:33 #kisslinux <periish[m]> im aiming my guns at sv, the car industry and the oil industry yea
2021-02-28T10:56:36 #kisslinux <midfavila> "gee guise let's make the world a better place by giving the poor african children funny dog tokens"
2021-02-28T10:56:39 #kisslinux <necromansy> my mates literally bought into it years back for the memes
2021-02-28T10:56:53 #kisslinux <midfavila> honestly I just wish we'd switch to nuclear already
2021-02-28T10:56:57 #kisslinux <midfavila> instead of setting up more coal plants
2021-02-28T10:57:05 #kisslinux <midfavila> looking at you germany
2021-02-28T10:57:11 #kisslinux <periish[m]> cars are a big problem environmentally too in places where theyre nonessential
2021-02-28T10:57:14 #kisslinux <periish[m]> us makes sense
2021-02-28T10:57:17 #kisslinux <periish[m]> london does not
2021-02-28T10:57:21 #kisslinux <midfavila> US absolutely does not make fucking sense
2021-02-28T10:57:27 #kisslinux <periish[m]> eh, countryside
2021-02-28T10:57:27 #kisslinux <midfavila> teeny tiny country
2021-02-28T10:57:28 #kisslinux <necromansy> fuck tell me about it, Aus is STILL investing in new coal mines
2021-02-28T10:57:40 #kisslinux <necromansy> our largest exporter isn't even buying our shit anymore
2021-02-28T10:57:42 #kisslinux <midfavila> you can afford to walk a block and a half to get your supersized double bacon big mac and milkshake
2021-02-28T10:57:56 #kisslinux <periish[m]> i mean in the countryside, haha
2021-02-28T10:58:00 #kisslinux <merakor2> Because lobbying assholes are everywhere
2021-02-28T10:58:01 #kisslinux <periish[m]> city cars make no sense
2021-02-28T10:58:09 #kisslinux <midfavila> countryside is the one area where you have a legit reason to have a car
2021-02-28T10:58:11 #kisslinux <periish[m]> the point of the density was to avoid it ya wads
2021-02-28T10:58:15 #kisslinux <merakor2> Same with agriculture
2021-02-28T10:58:15 #kisslinux <midfavila> or like, if your car is your job/house
2021-02-28T10:58:20 #kisslinux <periish[m]> aye
2021-02-28T10:58:25 #kisslinux <midfavila> but if you live in a city use a bike motherfucker
2021-02-28T10:58:27 #kisslinux <midfavila> or like
2021-02-28T10:58:29 #kisslinux <midfavila> w a l k
2021-02-28T10:58:30 #kisslinux <periish[m]> its unavoidable in the US sadly
2021-02-28T10:58:33 #kisslinux <midfavila> it'd probably do you some good
2021-02-28T10:58:42 #kisslinux <periish[m]> cars are a requirement for living there
2021-02-28T10:58:51 #kisslinux <midfavila> nuclear take
2021-02-28T10:58:53 #kisslinux <midfavila> are you ready for this
2021-02-28T10:58:55 #kisslinux <periish[m]> no good infrastructure for biking a lot of places
2021-02-28T10:59:01 #kisslinux <necromansy> i dont even have a licence, it can be crippling at times in a semi-rural area
2021-02-28T10:59:04 #kisslinux <midfavila> bring back the public tram system
2021-02-28T10:59:19 #kisslinux <periish[m]> thats barely lukewarm
2021-02-28T10:59:29 #kisslinux <midfavila> we haven't gotten to the spicy part
2021-02-28T10:59:34 #kisslinux <midfavila> you know how we're gonna fund it
2021-02-28T10:59:47 #kisslinux <midfavila> evil horrible no good awful communist taxes
2021-02-28T10:59:49 #kisslinux <necromansy> just do it effectively, and not like my nearest major city, which ripped up its inner-city train-network 2 years before ruining the city-centre and fucked the infrastructure
2021-02-28T10:59:57 #kisslinux <midfavila> prepare to pay an extra five cents a year
2021-02-28T11:00:28 #kisslinux <periish[m]> or just take away the useless military budget
2021-02-28T11:00:29 #kisslinux <periish[m]> lol
2021-02-28T11:00:33 #kisslinux <midfavila> okay so like
2021-02-28T11:00:37 #kisslinux <midfavila> on the one hand
2021-02-28T11:00:45 #kisslinux <midfavila> america really needs to fucking CHILL with the military spending
2021-02-28T11:00:57 #kisslinux <midfavila> something something "gee bill why does your GDP let you have two aircraft carriers"
2021-02-28T11:01:14 #kisslinux <periish[m]> modern militaries are effectively solely foreign intervention tools
2021-02-28T11:01:17 #kisslinux <midfavila> but on the other hand, the military is more than just guys in overpriced suits shooting at each other over oil
2021-02-28T11:01:22 #kisslinux <midfavila> at least in canada
2021-02-28T11:01:27 #kisslinux <necromansy> military spending would probably go down if the CIA stopped meddling in foreign affairs :P
2021-02-28T11:01:42 #kisslinux <midfavila> but we have to spread Democracy:tm: and Freedom:r:
2021-02-28T11:01:52 #kisslinux <midfavila> and wars are good for stonks
2021-02-28T11:02:00 #kisslinux <midfavila> all hail the green line
2021-02-28T11:02:00 #kisslinux <necromansy> the aus army has been known to be *very* shitty with us troops
2021-02-28T11:02:05 #kisslinux <midfavila> i mean good
2021-02-28T11:02:07 #kisslinux <necromansy> vietnam was peak example
2021-02-28T11:02:10 #kisslinux <periish[m]> spreading democracy by overthrowing democractially elected leaders like a boss
2021-02-28T11:02:10 #kisslinux <midfavila> the US is an awful country
2021-02-28T11:02:12 #kisslinux <midfavila> no offense
2021-02-28T11:02:29 #kisslinux <merakor2> "War is a racket" is a really good reading
2021-02-28T11:02:38 #kisslinux <midfavila> like canada's not perfect but at least we have healthcare that everyone can access
2021-02-28T11:03:05 #kisslinux <necromansy> i feel bad about bitching about Aus healthcare coz its not good quality, but we have it
2021-02-28T11:03:06 #kisslinux <periish[m]> vietnam was the us getting pissy about folks picking a communist dude over their dictator
2021-02-28T11:03:26 #kisslinux <necromansy> and then dragging australia into a conflict or else they'd drop from NATO
2021-02-28T11:03:36 #kisslinux <midfavila> god I hate the US
2021-02-28T11:03:37 #kisslinux <necromansy> (unironically why we were even involved)
2021-02-28T11:03:56 #kisslinux <midfavila> as if violating the rights of every single person on the planet on a daily basis wasn't enough to get the pres off
2021-02-28T11:04:04 #kisslinux <midfavila> fuckers
2021-02-28T11:04:07 #kisslinux <periish[m]> the us and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race
2021-02-28T11:04:14 #kisslinux <midfavila> i mean unironically
2021-02-28T11:04:26 #kisslinux <necromansy> but hey, disney right? /s
2021-02-28T11:04:27 #kisslinux <periish[m]> yea no i only ever do consequences unironically
2021-02-28T11:04:32 #kisslinux <periish[m]> hilarious phrase
2021-02-28T11:04:36 #kisslinux <midfavila> consequences are for poors
2021-02-28T11:04:52 #kisslinux <periish[m]> the uk should get criticism too
2021-02-28T11:04:58 #kisslinux <necromansy> oh 10000%
2021-02-28T11:05:00 #kisslinux <midfavila> oh bongland is ass too
2021-02-28T11:05:03 #kisslinux <periish[m]> helped the us fuck over the middle east
2021-02-28T11:05:04 #kisslinux <midfavila> but for much different reasons
2021-02-28T11:05:11 #kisslinux <merakor2> Britain is the reason of US
2021-02-28T11:05:13 #kisslinux <merakor2> So
2021-02-28T11:05:14 #kisslinux <necromansy> they were just doing the same thing but 300 yrs earlier
2021-02-28T11:05:27 #kisslinux <periish[m]> they also did it in the 50s
2021-02-28T11:05:33 #kisslinux <midfavila> you can't judge the past with the morals of the present so.
2021-02-28T11:05:39 #kisslinux <periish[m]> and 60s and 70s
2021-02-28T11:05:53 #kisslinux <merakor2> I think we can agree that the humanity as a whole is a POS
2021-02-28T11:05:59 #kisslinux <necromansy> for sure
2021-02-28T11:06:10 #kisslinux <periish[m]> i can judge the uk for helping the us overthrow democratically elected leaders
2021-02-28T11:06:13 #kisslinux <midfavila> giant meteor 2024
2021-02-28T11:06:18 #kisslinux <necromansy> room to improve, even if its kicking and screaming
2021-02-28T11:06:19 #kisslinux <midfavila> please dear god end it already
2021-02-28T11:06:21 #kisslinux <periish[m]> also for being transphobic as shit
2021-02-28T11:06:30 #kisslinux <necromansy> drag humanity into the light
2021-02-28T11:06:46 #kisslinux <periish[m]> like ya know ur fucked up when other countries accept refuges from ya transphobia
2021-02-28T11:06:52 #kisslinux <midfavila> no offense but I think we should start with "hey so how about we don't destabilize third world countries" before we get into that
2021-02-28T11:06:56 #kisslinux <periish[m]> true
2021-02-28T11:07:07 #kisslinux <necromansy> for sure
2021-02-28T11:07:12 #kisslinux <periish[m]> the third world is a dated term tbh
2021-02-28T11:07:20 #kisslinux <midfavila> unironically thank you for not freaking the fuck out over that
2021-02-28T11:07:23 #kisslinux <periish[m]> becase switzerland is a third world country
2021-02-28T11:07:33 #kisslinux <periish[m]> by definition
2021-02-28T11:07:41 #kisslinux <midfavila> i've had so many discussions where people are like "nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! you can't prioritize millions of people over a small subset!"
2021-02-28T11:08:04 #kisslinux <necromansy> look, trans rights are human rights but recognising that "developed" nations routinely fuck over smaller nations is a human rights violation too
2021-02-28T11:08:28 #kisslinux <periish[m]> aye
2021-02-28T11:08:35 #kisslinux <necromansy> y'all heard about the refugee detention centres Aus has?
2021-02-28T11:08:41 #kisslinux <periish[m]> oh dear
2021-02-28T11:08:43 #kisslinux <midfavila> no but I can imagine
2021-02-28T11:08:47 #kisslinux <periish[m]> refugee detention centres
2021-02-28T11:08:53 #kisslinux <travankor> necromansy: like ICE in USA?
2021-02-28T11:09:03 #kisslinux <periish[m]> god fuck ICE
2021-02-28T11:09:06 #kisslinux <midfavila> eh
2021-02-28T11:09:12 #kisslinux <necromansy> nah, this is before they get into the country
2021-02-28T11:09:12 #kisslinux <midfavila> again they have a *purpose*
2021-02-28T11:09:18 #kisslinux <midfavila> it's just far too...
2021-02-28T11:09:21 #kisslinux <midfavila> militarized
2021-02-28T11:09:29 #kisslinux <midfavila> like everything else in the US
2021-02-28T11:09:41 #kisslinux <periish[m]> disagree on that front ice is just shit
2021-02-28T11:09:51 #kisslinux <midfavila> refugees and other immigrants aren't enemy combatants, they're just people
2021-02-28T11:10:01 #kisslinux <midfavila> you gotta figure out *why* they're behaving the way they are
2021-02-28T11:10:05 #kisslinux <merakor2> midfavila: It's not exactly prioritization, but you shouldn't dismiss ones struggle, just because there are others with struggles.
2021-02-28T11:10:05 #kisslinux <midfavila> and then fix that problem
2021-02-28T11:10:17 #kisslinux <midfavila> merakor2 yeah nah it's absolutely prioritization sorry
2021-02-28T11:10:40 #kisslinux <midfavila> when millions of people can't eat or sleep without fear of being shot that's a lot more important than the issue of the day
2021-02-28T11:10:43 #kisslinux <periish[m]> if you didnt want immigrants ya shouldntve destabilised the countries theyre coming from you conkers
2021-02-28T11:10:49 #kisslinux <midfavila> ^
2021-02-28T11:10:58 #kisslinux <periish[m]> ice has no reason to exist
2021-02-28T11:11:06 #kisslinux <midfavila> they do. it's just a self-created reason
2021-02-28T11:11:25 #kisslinux <merakor2> midfavila: You have to start fixing somewhere, and lots of people don't fix anything just because there is a lot to fix
2021-02-28T11:11:28 #kisslinux <necromansy> >A young Afghan man has tried to set himself on fire at a Melbourne detention centre"
2021-02-28T11:11:32 #kisslinux <necromansy> mmm 2019 was wild
2021-02-28T11:11:33 #kisslinux <periish[m]> oh my
2021-02-28T11:11:51 #kisslinux <midfavila> merakor2 and I'm gonna start fixing things by trying to get the military pulled out of whatever oil-fuelled crusade the USA is on
2021-02-28T11:12:13 #kisslinux <periish[m]> i feel like criticising people for trying to fix something is a bad idea unless they dont actually help anyone by fixing it
2021-02-28T11:12:32 #kisslinux <merakor2> midfavila: that is also valid and a good thing to do
2021-02-28T11:12:36 #kisslinux <midfavila> it's not even about just like sweeping shit under the rug or whatever
2021-02-28T11:12:38 #kisslinux <midfavila> don't get me wrong
2021-02-28T11:12:43 #kisslinux <midfavila> issues are issues
2021-02-28T11:12:43 #kisslinux <periish[m]> like electric cars dont solve the issue of cars existing
2021-02-28T11:12:52 #kisslinux <merakor2> Yeah I see your point
2021-02-28T11:12:52 #kisslinux <midfavila> but acting like issues are all equal is brainlet
2021-02-28T11:13:12 #kisslinux <midfavila> millions of people having no shelter, food, water, education, or safety vs muh pronouns
2021-02-28T11:13:26 #kisslinux <midfavila> (yes I know it's more nuanced)
2021-02-28T11:13:29 #kisslinux <midfavila> (but still)
2021-02-28T11:13:35 #kisslinux <necromansy> i was gonna say :P
2021-02-28T11:13:38 #kisslinux <periish[m]> a lot more :v
2021-02-28T11:13:38 #kisslinux <necromansy> i get what ya mean tho
2021-02-28T11:13:48 #kisslinux <merakor2> I agree
2021-02-28T11:13:56 #kisslinux <periish[m]> you can help both at the same time
2021-02-28T11:13:59 #kisslinux <necromansy> ^
2021-02-28T11:14:04 #kisslinux <merakor2> Yup
2021-02-28T11:14:08 #kisslinux <midfavila> i'd rather devote myself to one thing wholeheartedly
2021-02-28T11:14:16 #kisslinux <midfavila> before moving on to the next
2021-02-28T11:14:16 #kisslinux <necromansy> thats fine ofc
2021-02-28T11:14:16 #kisslinux <periish[m]> by addressing the root of it ;)
2021-02-28T11:14:38 #kisslinux <necromansy> a signular person doesnt need to devote their time split amongst everything provided they're still recognising other issues
2021-02-28T11:14:46 #kisslinux <periish[m]> ay
2021-02-28T11:14:46 #kisslinux <midfavila> idk ultimately everyone should just be a NEET and everything should be automated
2021-02-28T11:14:57 #kisslinux <midfavila> if nobody did anything then nothing would ever happen
2021-02-28T11:15:00 #kisslinux <necromansy> but i wanna learn muh science :<
2021-02-28T11:15:01 #kisslinux <midfavila> thereby averting all crises
2021-02-28T11:15:08 #kisslinux <midfavila> live in the pod eat the bugs
2021-02-28T11:15:11 #kisslinux <midfavila> etc
2021-02-28T11:15:20 #kisslinux <periish[m]> im not one of those luxury gay space communists so id disagree
2021-02-28T11:15:37 #kisslinux <travankor> tankie?
2021-02-28T11:15:43 #kisslinux <necromansy> nah thats not tankie
2021-02-28T11:15:51 #kisslinux <periish[m]> definitely for the gay communism bit less space
2021-02-28T11:16:02 #kisslinux <midfavila> fuck the gay communism, gimme space
2021-02-28T11:16:04 #kisslinux <periish[m]> nah im no tankie
2021-02-28T11:16:05 #kisslinux <midfavila> black hole bombs when
2021-02-28T11:16:10 #kisslinux <midfavila> gimme gimme gimme
2021-02-28T11:16:15 #kisslinux <necromansy> also people will always find shit to need to do
2021-02-28T11:16:19 #kisslinux <necromansy> we got brains to stimulate
2021-02-28T11:16:25 #kisslinux <periish[m]> the ussr fucked over ukraine real bad yo
2021-02-28T11:16:31 #kisslinux <necromansy> ^
2021-02-28T11:16:37 #kisslinux <midfavila> problem there was stalin
2021-02-28T11:16:41 #kisslinux <periish[m]> alongside everything they touched
2021-02-28T11:16:42 #kisslinux <midfavila> stalin was a fucking cunt
2021-02-28T11:16:43 #kisslinux <necromansy> 100%
2021-02-28T11:16:49 #kisslinux <periish[m]> other leaders too
2021-02-28T11:16:53 #kisslinux <midfavila> for sure
2021-02-28T11:17:07 #kisslinux <midfavila> idk one thing that bothers me is when people can't seperate the ideologies from the leaders
2021-02-28T11:17:19 #kisslinux <necromansy> yeah i agree with that
2021-02-28T11:17:23 #kisslinux <periish[m]> auth leftism has a lot of hero worship ime
2021-02-28T11:17:26 #kisslinux <midfavila> shit even the nazis had good ideas
2021-02-28T11:17:27 #kisslinux <necromansy> criticise the state
2021-02-28T11:17:31 #kisslinux <periish[m]> cant get behind that
2021-02-28T11:17:44 #kisslinux <midfavila> it was hitler coming along and fucking over what mussolini was doing that screwed everything up
2021-02-28T11:17:44 #kisslinux <periish[m]> oh and genocide excusal
2021-02-28T11:18:01 #kisslinux <midfavila> not that mussolini was an angel but still
2021-02-28T11:18:28 #kisslinux <necromansy> well ofc not, efficiency thru mass murder is still a bad bad
2021-02-28T11:18:49 #kisslinux <travankor> tankies have 1) cool military music and 2) cool tanks (du'h) but that's about it :p
2021-02-28T11:19:05 #kisslinux <konimex> in some cases I don't think ideologies can be separated from its leader/creator (e.g. Maoism, Peronism, etc.)
2021-02-28T11:19:11 #kisslinux <midfavila> well yeah
2021-02-28T11:19:22 #kisslinux <midfavila> you can't seperate stalinist thought from stalin
2021-02-28T11:19:28 #kisslinux <midfavila> because it's literally defined by what he thought
2021-02-28T11:19:35 #kisslinux <midfavila> again same with hitler, etc
2021-02-28T11:19:36 #kisslinux <necromansy> but you can separate marxism from stalinism
2021-02-28T11:19:45 #kisslinux <midfavila> well, marxism is just what marx thought
2021-02-28T11:19:56 #kisslinux <necromansy> speaking of, i gotta read the plain text versions of Das Kapital that i downloaded
2021-02-28T11:19:57 #kisslinux <midfavila> i think of it as an "extension" to the "spec" of communism
2021-02-28T11:20:06 #kisslinux <necromansy> yeah
2021-02-28T11:20:07 #kisslinux <midfavila> like bash to sh or whatever
2021-02-28T11:20:23 #kisslinux <midfavila> you can have communism and not give a fuck about marx or stalin
2021-02-28T11:20:36 #kisslinux <midfavila> or national socialism and not give a fuck about mussolini or hitler
2021-02-28T11:20:38 #kisslinux <midfavila> etc etc etc
2021-02-28T11:20:44 #kisslinux <midfavila> and then you can break those down further
2021-02-28T11:20:56 #kisslinux <midfavila> until you end up with some obscure philosopher's ideas from 10000bc
2021-02-28T11:21:04 #kisslinux <midfavila> and the politics of sticks and stones
2021-02-28T11:22:48 #kisslinux <necromansy> love that you wrote those lines and all ive got in response is "yeah"
2021-02-28T11:22:58 #kisslinux * midfavila shrugs
2021-02-28T11:23:28 #kisslinux <midfavila> ultimately everything can be broken down into simple, atomic ideas. it's just about picking which you like and assembling them into a coherent whole
2021-02-28T11:23:43 #kisslinux <midfavila> ideological labels are just an abstraction to make it easier to communicate those ideals, even if they're not always accurate
2021-02-28T11:23:57 #kisslinux <midfavila> sadly people get way too fucking into that stuff
2021-02-28T11:24:21 #kisslinux <midfavila> even the greeks were like "man this whole "letting people vote" thing fucking sucks"
2021-02-28T11:25:32 #kisslinux <merakor> Because people don't like to make choices and want others to do that for them
2021-02-28T11:25:47 #kisslinux <midfavila> in part
2021-02-28T11:25:58 #kisslinux <midfavila> but it's also a symptom of the human condition. tribalism and all that
2021-02-28T11:25:59 #kisslinux <merakor> Sadly people who want that authority are the people shouldn't be part of the authority in the first place
2021-02-28T11:26:08 #kisslinux <periish[m]> yea
2021-02-28T11:26:11 #kisslinux <necromansy> agreed
2021-02-28T11:26:20 #kisslinux <merakor> Tribalism is exactly it
2021-02-28T11:26:33 #kisslinux <midfavila> "oh you call yourself an x? you must believe in a, b, c, d, and e, therefore you bad!"
2021-02-28T11:26:46 #kisslinux <midfavila> and it's like nah
2021-02-28T11:26:51 #kisslinux <midfavila> there are flavors to this my guy
2021-02-28T11:27:03 #kisslinux <periish[m]> Any American who is prepared to run for president should automatically, by definition, be disqualified from ever doing so.
2021-02-28T11:27:12 #kisslinux <periish[m]> gore vidal
2021-02-28T11:27:12 #kisslinux <midfavila> and that's why democracy is shit
2021-02-28T11:27:23 #kisslinux <midfavila> ideally timocracy would be a thing
2021-02-28T11:27:30 #kisslinux <midfavila> but it's *not*
2021-02-28T11:27:34 #kisslinux <periish[m]> timocracy?
2021-02-28T11:27:47 #kisslinux <midfavila> plato's "Politics" describes timocracy as a "pure" form of democracy
2021-02-28T11:28:21 #kisslinux <midfavila> the very core of the concept is that only those who own some form of property (not just land, any property) can engage in politics, and only to the degree in which they own property
2021-02-28T11:28:22 #kisslinux <midfavila> BUT
2021-02-28T11:28:32 #kisslinux <midfavila> before you freak out about how bougise that sounds
2021-02-28T11:28:48 #kisslinux <midfavila> the flipside is that those who are more involved in the system are also the ones who are more tightly leashed by the system
2021-02-28T11:29:06 #kisslinux <midfavila> basically, how much you produce determines the limit to which you can affect society, but also to how much society can affect you
2021-02-28T11:29:33 #kisslinux <midfavila> but then you combine that with hypercapitalism and it just ends up a plutocracy
2021-02-28T11:29:43 #kisslinux <midfavila> more specifically a plutocratic democracy!
2021-02-28T11:30:25 #kisslinux <midfavila> which is basically what we all live in
2021-02-28T11:30:28 #kisslinux <necromansy> yeah, its kinda hard to have a tight leash on the powerful when money is power
2021-02-28T11:30:28 #kisslinux <midfavila> and it fucking *sucks*
2021-02-28T11:30:45 #kisslinux <midfavila> that's why most timocratic advocates advocate tiered taxes
2021-02-28T11:30:58 #kisslinux <midfavila> i.e the more you make (the more you benefit from the system), the more you have to pay into it
2021-02-28T11:31:15 #kisslinux <midfavila> it's like a self-contained loop
2021-02-28T11:31:18 #kisslinux <necromansy> i dislike the argument that "its my money, why should i hand it over"
2021-02-28T11:31:20 #kisslinux <necromansy> like idk
2021-02-28T11:31:24 #kisslinux <necromansy> excuse the meme
2021-02-28T11:31:28 #kisslinux <necromansy> but we do live in a society
2021-02-28T11:31:38 #kisslinux <periish[m]> not a whole fan of the money shtick personally
2021-02-28T11:31:38 #kisslinux * midfavila dances down the stairs
2021-02-28T11:31:55 #kisslinux <midfavila> see that's what I like about timocracy
2021-02-28T11:31:58 #kisslinux <midfavila> you can have it both ways
2021-02-28T11:32:09 #kisslinux <periish[m]> we can do better than magic tokens
2021-02-28T11:32:15 #kisslinux <midfavila> if you want to be a greedy fucker then you'll never benefit from the system nor move up in it
2021-02-28T11:32:20 #kisslinux <midfavila> but you'll also never affect anyone else
2021-02-28T11:33:04 #kisslinux <midfavila> that's really the beauty of the system. it still allows for personal wealth, but it encourages a community-minded... well, mindset
2021-02-28T11:33:23 #kisslinux <necromansy> the problem there is as long as money is tied to material gains, you can always loosen the grip by slicking political movement's hands
2021-02-28T11:33:37 #kisslinux <necromansy> idk how that works with timocracies tho
2021-02-28T11:33:39 #kisslinux <necromansy> not well read :P
2021-02-28T11:33:51 #kisslinux <midfavila> everyone who's in a position of power already has a fuckton of shit
2021-02-28T11:34:01 #kisslinux <periish[m]> theres this whole thing of market anarchism which i really disagree with
2021-02-28T11:34:03 #kisslinux <midfavila> so why would they take a bribe from someone else who has the same amount of shit
2021-02-28T11:34:08 #kisslinux <midfavila> they don't need it
2021-02-28T11:34:12 #kisslinux <necromansy> make more shit
2021-02-28T11:34:16 #kisslinux <midfavila> and if they did it would show up in ledgers and be taxed anyway
2021-02-28T11:34:35 #kisslinux <necromansy> bezos and musk don't need more shit but they'll always do things to make more shit
2021-02-28T11:34:43 #kisslinux <midfavila> at least musk does stuff
2021-02-28T11:34:49 #kisslinux <midfavila> bezos just ships stuff around
2021-02-28T11:34:58 #kisslinux <midfavila> :|
2021-02-28T11:35:04 #kisslinux <necromansy> yeah, y'know what i mean tho lol
2021-02-28T11:35:15 #kisslinux <midfavila> not that courier work isn't important
2021-02-28T11:35:18 #kisslinux <midfavila> it is
2021-02-28T11:35:19 #kisslinux <midfavila> but like
2021-02-28T11:35:24 #kisslinux <midfavila> amazon is way more than that
2021-02-28T11:35:27 #kisslinux <necromansy> bezos isn't the courier tho
2021-02-28T11:35:41 #kisslinux <midfavila> see here's where I differ with a lot of communists or communist-like people
2021-02-28T11:35:42 #kisslinux <necromansy> he's just the guy at the top raking in the cash coz he set up the business
2021-02-28T11:35:44 #kisslinux <periish[m]> musks stuff is all very scammy
2021-02-28T11:35:51 #kisslinux <midfavila> i don't have a problem with the idea of a business
2021-02-28T11:36:08 #kisslinux <midfavila> what I *do* have a problem with is the idea of abusing workers and/or society to make your bux
2021-02-28T11:36:38 #kisslinux <necromansy> eh businesses make money, workers are there just to make money, all else is not true capitalism
2021-02-28T11:36:43 #kisslinux <periish[m]> i think the business thing will eventually devolve into worker exploitation
2021-02-28T11:36:46 #kisslinux <necromansy> ^
2021-02-28T11:37:07 #kisslinux <periish[m]> so id rather not
2021-02-28T11:37:19 #kisslinux <necromansy> all things counter to that are sysemtic ways of addressing the issues with inherent exploitations within profit driven businesses
2021-02-28T11:37:25 #kisslinux <midfavila> well, it sucks, but whether you like it or not without the fortune 500 we'd all be living in a cave
2021-02-28T11:37:52 #kisslinux <midfavila> again it's about ideals versus practicality.
2021-02-28T11:37:55 #kisslinux <periish[m]> damn dude i really want to invent fire but i have no profit motive to do so
2021-02-28T11:38:09 #kisslinux <periish[m]> how will we address this
2021-02-28T11:38:21 #kisslinux <midfavila> fire and an amazon fire don't exactly compare tbqh
2021-02-28T11:38:31 #kisslinux <periish[m]> amazon fire sucks
2021-02-28T11:38:34 #kisslinux <necromansy> oh yeah capitalism has helped a ton, communist criticism of it doesnt say otherwise, just that we're past the point of needing it and the explotation
2021-02-28T11:38:34 #kisslinux <midfavila> i mean yes
2021-02-28T11:38:50 #kisslinux <midfavila> see this is why I prefer to think of myself as a socialist
2021-02-28T11:38:55 #kisslinux <periish[m]> ya im saying that we dnt need it anymore
2021-02-28T11:38:58 #kisslinux <necromansy> same
2021-02-28T11:39:00 #kisslinux <midfavila> full-on communism doesn't work, but neither does capitalism
2021-02-28T11:39:13 #kisslinux <periish[m]> im not a "full on communist" ;)
2021-02-28T11:39:15 #kisslinux <midfavila> so we should do like taco bell and that one korean dude and smash 'em together
2021-02-28T11:39:44 #kisslinux <midfavila> ultimately there's no perfect solution
2021-02-28T11:39:45 #kisslinux <midfavila> which sucks
2021-02-28T11:39:47 #kisslinux <midfavila> but like
2021-02-28T11:39:49 #kisslinux <necromansy> socialism really is just a step to communism, but there's no point going to communism if you're just creating a vanguard with tons of political power
2021-02-28T11:39:50 #kisslinux <midfavila> yeah
2021-02-28T11:40:03 #kisslinux <midfavila> see I get the whole argument of muh stepladder
2021-02-28T11:40:04 #kisslinux <necromansy> gotta build the foundations strong first
2021-02-28T11:40:04 #kisslinux <midfavila> but it's stupid
2021-02-28T11:40:12 #kisslinux <periish[m]> if i talked to one of those annoying marxist folk theyd go unga marxist analysis at what i like
2021-02-28T11:40:13 #kisslinux <periish[m]> god i hate the buzzwords
2021-02-28T11:40:17 #kisslinux <periish[m]> material conditions
2021-02-28T11:40:24 #kisslinux <midfavila> socialism is not and will never be communism. they're two seperate ideologies
2021-02-28T11:40:29 #kisslinux <necromansy> ^ they are
2021-02-28T11:40:35 #kisslinux <midfavila> they literally aren't
2021-02-28T11:40:48 #kisslinux <necromansy> nonono im agreeing with you
2021-02-28T11:40:49 #kisslinux <necromansy> sorry
2021-02-28T11:40:55 #kisslinux <midfavila> okay that might be my bad then
2021-02-28T11:40:59 #kisslinux <necromansy> was saying they are to the separate idealogies bit
2021-02-28T11:41:01 #kisslinux <midfavila> it's been over 24h since I've slept
2021-02-28T11:41:01 #kisslinux <necromansy> nah its cool
2021-02-28T11:41:04 #kisslinux <periish[m]> malatesta has a fun definition of socialism
2021-02-28T11:41:16 #kisslinux <periish[m]> n says its incompatible with the state
2021-02-28T11:41:21 #kisslinux <midfavila> see that's stupid
2021-02-28T11:41:40 #kisslinux <midfavila> socialism, economically, is corporations heavily regulated by the state
2021-02-28T11:41:47 #kisslinux <periish[m]> que
2021-02-28T11:41:52 #kisslinux <necromansy> communism afaik is supposed to be *stateless*
2021-02-28T11:41:57 #kisslinux <periish[m]> ive never heard that definition
2021-02-28T11:41:57 #kisslinux <midfavila> lmao
2021-02-28T11:42:10 #kisslinux <midfavila> and I mean idk if it's just how canadians talk about it
2021-02-28T11:42:12 #kisslinux <necromansy> heavy emphasis on *supposed*
2021-02-28T11:42:23 #kisslinux <midfavila> but if you come here nobody thinks about socialism as just "less extreme communism"
2021-02-28T11:42:28 #kisslinux <periish[m]> communism and anarchism differ in the methods
2021-02-28T11:42:35 #kisslinux <midfavila> anarchism is cringe
2021-02-28T11:42:37 #kisslinux <midfavila> but it has good ideas
2021-02-28T11:42:47 #kisslinux <periish[m]> nah socialism to everyone i know is workers owning the means of production
2021-02-28T11:42:52 #kisslinux <periish[m]> no mention of state or money
2021-02-28T11:42:57 #kisslinux <midfavila> yeah that's communism here
2021-02-28T11:43:02 #kisslinux <periish[m]> lol
2021-02-28T11:43:11 #kisslinux * midfavila shrugs
2021-02-28T11:43:16 #kisslinux <midfavila> i can only speak from what I know
2021-02-28T11:43:20 #kisslinux <periish[m]> workers owning the means of production can still have
2021-02-28T11:43:21 #kisslinux <periish[m]> money
2021-02-28T11:43:25 #kisslinux <periish[m]> and a state
2021-02-28T11:43:31 #kisslinux <midfavila> okay so
2021-02-28T11:43:34 #kisslinux <periish[m]> and classes
2021-02-28T11:43:38 #kisslinux <necromansy> yeah
2021-02-28T11:43:39 #kisslinux <midfavila> ignoring the logistical problems of that
2021-02-28T11:43:46 #kisslinux <midfavila> how would "owning the means of production" work in today's society
2021-02-28T11:43:53 #kisslinux <necromansy> co-ops
2021-02-28T11:43:57 #kisslinux <necromansy> and stuff like that
2021-02-28T11:44:00 #kisslinux <midfavila> do we all just show up at 8am and assemble our equipment for the day
2021-02-28T11:44:04 #kisslinux <midfavila> and then tear it down at night
2021-02-28T11:44:10 #kisslinux <midfavila> and each take a piece home
2021-02-28T11:44:11 #kisslinux <periish[m]> co ops
2021-02-28T11:44:19 #kisslinux <midfavila> and that means..?
2021-02-28T11:44:22 #kisslinux <necromansy> lmao nah its earning the profits from the work
2021-02-28T11:44:33 #kisslinux <midfavila> see that's dumb
2021-02-28T11:44:36 #kisslinux <necromansy> not the profits travelling upstream thru the management
2021-02-28T11:44:44 #kisslinux <midfavila> a good manager can greatly increase productivity
2021-02-28T11:44:44 #kisslinux <midfavila> now
2021-02-28T11:44:53 #kisslinux <midfavila> that doesn't mean they should be paid more than the workers
2021-02-28T11:44:57 #kisslinux <necromansy> and having a larger say in the decisions of work
2021-02-28T11:45:03 #kisslinux <necromansy> as opposed to just following orders
2021-02-28T11:45:07 #kisslinux <midfavila> but disregarding logistics because "lmao you don't even work brah" is stupid
2021-02-28T11:45:15 #kisslinux <midfavila> also yes workers should have a strong union or something similar
2021-02-28T11:45:17 #kisslinux <periish[m]> not whats advocated
2021-02-28T11:45:46 #kisslinux <midfavila> i feel like the role of manager gets a bad rep because there are so many shit managers
2021-02-28T11:45:50 #kisslinux <periish[m]> a distinction i see made is adminstrator vs manager, where the administrator is a worker same as the rest
2021-02-28T11:45:55 #kisslinux <necromansy> ^
2021-02-28T11:45:57 #kisslinux <periish[m]> just no power
2021-02-28T11:46:01 #kisslinux <midfavila> but managerial stuff is still *work*. it's just intellectual work
2021-02-28T11:46:05 #kisslinux <periish[m]> theyre the one who organises shit
2021-02-28T11:46:16 #kisslinux <midfavila> organizing is just as important as doing
2021-02-28T11:46:19 #kisslinux <periish[m]> and generally if theyre good at organising shit ya gonna listen to em
2021-02-28T11:46:28 #kisslinux <midfavila> every batallion needs its commanding officer
2021-02-28T11:46:31 #kisslinux * midfavila shrugs again
2021-02-28T11:46:38 #kisslinux <periish[m]> ya and thats the point of the administrator manager distinction
2021-02-28T11:46:49 #kisslinux <midfavila> i don't really see the point in making the distinction
2021-02-28T11:46:55 #kisslinux <midfavila> functionally they're the same thing
2021-02-28T11:47:30 #kisslinux <periish[m]> functionally yes but the effects r different
2021-02-28T11:47:41 #kisslinux <midfavila> if the effects are different then they're not functionally the same
2021-02-28T11:47:57 #kisslinux <periish[m]> adminstrator serves the same purpose as a manager of organisation
2021-02-28T11:48:12 #kisslinux <periish[m]> however the organisation itself is a different form
2021-02-28T11:48:33 #kisslinux <periish[m]> english is annoying for this distinction :v
2021-02-28T11:48:38 #kisslinux <midfavila> not really
2021-02-28T11:48:40 #kisslinux <midfavila> you're just wrong
2021-02-28T11:48:52 #kisslinux <periish[m]> lol
2021-02-28T11:48:53 #kisslinux <midfavila> the structure of an organization doesn't change the titles of the roles within it
2021-02-28T11:49:27 #kisslinux <periish[m]> the distinction is made specifically because the manager has more power than the administrator in this model
2021-02-28T11:49:31 #kisslinux <periish[m]> co ops dont have managers
2021-02-28T11:49:39 #kisslinux <midfavila> that sounds like a recipe for disaster.
2021-02-28T11:49:50 #kisslinux <necromansy> co-ops are actually super successful
2021-02-28T11:49:52 #kisslinux <necromansy> generally
2021-02-28T11:49:55 #kisslinux <periish[m]> but they have folk who say where shit goes
2021-02-28T11:49:57 #kisslinux <periish[m]> ya lol
2021-02-28T11:50:13 #kisslinux <necromansy> and not in profit margins, but in output, and quality of workers
2021-02-28T11:50:16 #kisslinux <midfavila> every time I've volunteered and there hasn't been some sort of manager everything's gone to shit after a couple weeks
2021-02-28T11:50:38 #kisslinux <midfavila> someone has to call the shots and make high level decisions
2021-02-28T11:50:38 #kisslinux <periish[m]> please learn to read
2021-02-28T11:50:38 #kisslinux <necromansy> eeeeh volunteering is different, there's no stakes
2021-02-28T11:50:46 #kisslinux <midfavila> my time is at stake
2021-02-28T11:50:51 #kisslinux <midfavila> i'd like to make effective use of it
2021-02-28T11:51:12 #kisslinux <necromansy> well yeah but i mean volunteers don't get anything out of the business
2021-02-28T11:51:17 #kisslinux <midfavila> sure you do
2021-02-28T11:51:35 #kisslinux <midfavila> reputation, skills, access to jobs...
2021-02-28T11:51:51 #kisslinux <necromansy> in some circumstances yeah, but co-ops are directly started by people with incentive of the services
2021-02-28T11:52:18 #kisslinux <midfavila> meh.
2021-02-28T11:52:34 #kisslinux <necromansy> like starting a farm coz you need food and then hiring and allowing other workers to make decisions in the place coz they need food
2021-02-28T11:52:54 #kisslinux <midfavila> see i dunno
2021-02-28T11:53:02 #kisslinux <midfavila> at that point i'd rather pay them in wages and a plot of land
2021-02-28T11:53:14 #kisslinux <necromansy> its scientifically proven to be more beneficial :P
2021-02-28T11:53:18 #kisslinux <midfavila> like feudalism without the whole "literally killing you and your whole village" thing
2021-02-28T11:53:34 #kisslinux <necromansy> that's just early capitalism
2021-02-28T11:53:43 #kisslinux <midfavila> and?
2021-02-28T11:54:00 #kisslinux <necromansy> look where we are now
2021-02-28T11:54:01 #kisslinux <necromansy> :P
2021-02-28T11:54:02 #kisslinux <midfavila> as long as it's controlled and doesn't spiral out, there's no problem, assuming everyone's rights are assured
2021-02-28T11:54:06 #kisslinux <konimex> depends on the mindset really, if one's an individualist then co-op will be of no benefit because of the "fuck you i got mine" mentality
2021-02-28T11:54:09 #kisslinux <midfavila> hence, strict government oversight
2021-02-28T11:54:40 #kisslinux <midfavila> and I mean, I'm not an Egoist or something like that. it just doesn't sound like it scales well
2021-02-28T11:55:33 #kisslinux <midfavila> pardon the pun but I'm just not sold on the idea.
2021-02-28T11:58:32 #kisslinux <necromansy> lel just found a paper talking about evidence showing co-ops have better customer behavioural cooperation than non-co-ops
2021-02-28T11:58:58 #kisslinux <midfavila> okay, cool
2021-02-28T11:59:04 #kisslinux <periish[m]> nice
2021-02-28T11:59:19 #kisslinux <midfavila> come back when there are co-ops building railways and other critical infrastructure
2021-02-28T12:01:33 #kisslinux <konimex> I don't know man, agriculture isn't "critical infrastructure"?
2021-02-28T12:02:16 #kisslinux <midfavila> are there any countries that get a majority of their agricultural needs met through the use of co-ops?
2021-02-28T12:02:29 #kisslinux <konimex> a lot of local (rural) co-ops here are based on agriculture so yeah
2021-02-28T12:02:42 #kisslinux <necromansy> theres the mondragon corp in basque
2021-02-28T12:04:17 #kisslinux <midfavila> fair enough, that's a pretty good example
2021-02-28T12:04:38 #kisslinux <necromansy> plus yeah, theres quite a few rural areas that use co-ops without them being world shattering but critical locally
2021-02-28T12:04:50 #kisslinux <midfavila> ultimately I don't care much about local examples
2021-02-28T12:05:05 #kisslinux <necromansy> that's a failure in your pov then :P
2021-02-28T12:05:19 #kisslinux <midfavila> when I said "critical infrastructure" I should have specified that I mean large scale projects like power plants, etc
2021-02-28T12:05:29 #kisslinux <midfavila> things that the entire country relies on
2021-02-28T12:06:02 #kisslinux <konimex> if an entire country relies on something it should be handled by the government I think
2021-02-28T12:06:09 #kisslinux <midfavila> sure
2021-02-28T12:06:11 #kisslinux <midfavila> but like
2021-02-28T12:06:21 #kisslinux <midfavila> until the governments of the world collectively decide that being competent is cool
2021-02-28T12:06:25 #kisslinux <midfavila> i dunno
2021-02-28T12:06:34 #kisslinux <necromansy> what makes a business any different
2021-02-28T12:06:42 #kisslinux <necromansy> private business routinely fuck up
2021-02-28T12:06:49 #kisslinux <midfavila> businesses have an incentive to do their jobs well. or at least better than government
2021-02-28T12:06:54 #kisslinux <midfavila> it's not about perfection
2021-02-28T12:06:58 #kisslinux <midfavila> it's about "good enough"
2021-02-28T12:07:01 #kisslinux <midfavila> as much as I hate to say that
2021-02-28T12:07:06 #kisslinux <necromansy> 911 connect calls are handled by a business and the company behind them are behind many millions of dollars of lawsuits
2021-02-28T12:07:14 #kisslinux <necromansy> id argue that's pre critical
2021-02-28T12:07:16 #kisslinux <necromansy> imo
2021-02-28T12:07:28 #kisslinux <midfavila> sure but at least you *can* sue them
2021-02-28T12:07:45 #kisslinux <midfavila> and don't tell me governments don't run kangaroo courts for that shit
2021-02-28T12:07:47 #kisslinux <midfavila> because they do
2021-02-28T12:07:49 #kisslinux <midfavila> all the time
2021-02-28T12:08:20 #kisslinux <midfavila> regardless everything is bad and awful and nothing will ever get better and we should all just collectively off ourselves
2021-02-28T12:08:24 #kisslinux <midfavila> thanks for coming to my ted talk
2021-02-28T12:30:29 #kisslinux <periish[m]> whos ted
2021-02-28T12:34:09 #kisslinux <merakor> I don't know who ted is but he sure talks a lot
2021-02-28T12:39:39 #kisslinux <midfavila1> pretty sure he was that literal loomer who hated factories a lot
2021-02-28T15:06:41 #kisslinux <merakor> FYI I have set up mailing lists for Carbs and will be more active about it, I will also be switching repositories to sourcehut as the main mirror, if anyone is interested
2021-02-28T15:23:22 #kisslinux <acheam> wow this channel was busy overnight
2021-02-28T15:23:46 #kisslinux <acheam> merakor:  that's what kiss would do if I was BDFL :)
2021-02-28T15:31:40 #kisslinux <testuser_[m]> hi acheam
2021-02-28T15:47:13 #kisslinux <merakor> acheam: I mean, I can understand Github for *visibility* purposes, but mail-driven approach is far more superior imo
2021-02-28T15:58:53 #kisslinux <acheam> hello, testuser_[m]!
2021-02-28T15:59:16 #kisslinux <acheam> yep for sure, merakor. kiss isn't about publicity at the sake of usability and freedom
2021-02-28T15:59:46 #kisslinux <periish[m]> i never quite got mailing lists
2021-02-28T16:00:09 #kisslinux <periish[m]> theyre hard to follow
2021-02-28T16:00:48 #kisslinux <acheam> how? You follow email conversations every day
2021-02-28T16:01:39 #kisslinux <periish[m]> i dont
2021-02-28T16:02:04 #kisslinux <acheam> do you just not use email for communication?
2021-02-28T16:02:34 #kisslinux <midfavila1> only boomers use email smh
2021-02-28T16:03:08 #kisslinux <testuser_[m]> I only use email for making accounts
2021-02-28T16:04:20 #kisslinux <testuser_[m]> and very rarely for replying to emails
2021-02-28T16:04:21 #kisslinux <periish[m]> i use email for communication but not mailing lists
2021-02-28T16:04:22 #kisslinux <periish[m]> they clog my inboxes
2021-02-28T16:04:42 #kisslinux <periish[m]> archives are generally pisspoor navigation wise
2021-02-28T16:06:30 #kisslinux <acheam> looking at email convos on srht is actually pretty good, but yeah reading through LKML or the Debain archives is annoying
2021-02-28T16:06:37 #kisslinux <periish[m]> ay
2021-02-28T16:07:11 #kisslinux <periish[m]> plus theyre shite accessibilitywise
2021-02-28T16:07:26 #kisslinux <acheam> whats more accesible than plaintext?
2021-02-28T16:07:37 #kisslinux <periish[m]> plaintext that follows browser settings
2021-02-28T16:08:17 #kisslinux <acheam> does normal plaintext not do that?...
2021-02-28T16:08:18 #kisslinux <midfavila1> imagine websites obeying the web browser and not the other way around
2021-02-28T16:08:21 #kisslinux <midfavila1> get a load of this guy
2021-02-28T16:08:23 #kisslinux <midfavila1> lmao
2021-02-28T16:08:29 #kisslinux <acheam> webkit_irl
2021-02-28T16:08:40 #kisslinux <midfavila1> berners_lee.jpg
2021-02-28T16:09:16 #kisslinux <midfavila1> we could've had scheme in the browser
2021-02-28T16:09:20 #kisslinux <midfavila1> but no
2021-02-28T16:09:22 #kisslinux <midfavila1> JS
2021-02-28T16:09:37 #kisslinux <periish[m]> acheam: most mailing archives r just  pre tags
2021-02-28T16:09:57 #kisslinux <periish[m]> which tend to render poorly on not large screens
2021-02-28T16:10:03 #kisslinux <acheam> I mean, even scheme would be corrupted by the web
2021-02-28T16:10:19 #kisslinux <periish[m]> yea
2021-02-28T16:10:20 #kisslinux <acheam> periish[m]:  ah yeah.
2021-02-28T16:10:22 #kisslinux <midfavila1> scheme is too based to be corrupted
2021-02-28T16:10:31 #kisslinux <periish[m]> guile
2021-02-28T16:10:41 #kisslinux <midfavila1> guile is okay
2021-02-28T16:11:19 #kisslinux <periish[m]> whats so special about scheme
2021-02-28T16:11:28 #kisslinux <midfavila1> muh minimalism
2021-02-28T16:11:40 #kisslinux <midfavila1> muh abstraction
2021-02-28T16:11:43 #kisslinux <periish[m]> other than being more inconsistently implemented than posix shell
2021-02-28T16:11:50 #kisslinux <midfavila1> uh... muh tail-call recursion
2021-02-28T16:11:54 #kisslinux * midfavila1 shrugs
2021-02-28T16:12:00 #kisslinux <periish[m]> tcr is rad
2021-02-28T16:12:04 #kisslinux <midfavila1> "it's not JS" is a feature
2021-02-28T16:12:17 #kisslinux <midfavila1> also I recall hearing that scheme doesn't need to be serialized
2021-02-28T16:12:30 #kisslinux <midfavila1> and you can also pause and resume the program and transmit it over the network
2021-02-28T16:12:37 #kisslinux <midfavila1> so you can offload most of the work to the server
2021-02-28T16:12:39 #kisslinux <periish[m]> thats impl dependent
2021-02-28T16:12:52 #kisslinux <periish[m]> you can do that w other langs
2021-02-28T16:13:00 #kisslinux <midfavila1> okay but scheme is cool
2021-02-28T16:13:03 #kisslinux <midfavila1> and those other langs drool
2021-02-28T16:13:11 #kisslinux <midfavila1> that's my argument
2021-02-28T16:13:39 #kisslinux <periish[m]> smalltalk has it real easy v scheme in terms of programs across the network
2021-02-28T16:13:56 #kisslinux <midfavila1> wasn't the last release of smalltalk in the eighties
2021-02-28T16:14:08 #kisslinux <periish[m]> its a family
2021-02-28T16:14:41 #kisslinux <periish[m]> wasnt the last release of lisp in the 60s
2021-02-28T16:14:48 #kisslinux <midfavila1> lmao no
2021-02-28T16:14:55 #kisslinux <midfavila1> it's being actively worked on
2021-02-28T16:14:59 #kisslinux <periish[m]> exactly
2021-02-28T16:15:56 #kisslinux <midfavila1> i mean according to wikipedia smalltalk's last release was in exactly 1980
2021-02-28T16:16:06 #kisslinux <midfavila1> but I'd be interested in learning about more modern implementations if they're a thing
2021-02-28T16:16:22 #kisslinux <periish[m]> pharo n squeak
2021-02-28T16:16:35 #kisslinux <periish[m]> i know of someone working on a self
2021-02-28T16:16:51 #kisslinux <periish[m]> self is cool
2021-02-28T16:17:26 #kisslinux <periish[m]> i think they recently put squeak on bare metal
2021-02-28T16:17:58 #kisslinux <periish[m]> there was a talk about it i couldnt attend
2021-02-28T16:36:53 #kisslinux <merakor> Well, the solution to mailing lists is either using a +tag for filtering or subscribing to announcement lists
2021-02-28T16:37:14 #kisslinux <merakor> Or just send mails whenever you need to
2021-02-28T16:37:26 #kisslinux <merakor> It is no different than watching on Github
2021-02-28T16:37:53 #kisslinux <merakor> It is not a mail-issue, it is a filtering issue
2021-02-28T16:39:16 #kisslinux <merakor> I feel much more comfortable using mailing-lists than watching repositories on Github
2021-02-28T16:43:39 #kisslinux <riteo> Hi! I'm terribly late into this whole dylan-is-missing deal and I can't find anything about any long term plan nor the general known status of dylan. Can somebody please explain me what is going on?
2021-02-28T16:43:47 #kisslinux <midfavila> tldr
2021-02-28T16:43:58 #kisslinux <midfavila> dylan pulled an Avatar and disappeared when we needed him the most
2021-02-28T16:44:02 #kisslinux <midfavila> no idea where he is
2021-02-28T16:44:05 #kisslinux <periish[m]> we dont know! dylan deleted his twitter and disappeared
2021-02-28T16:44:13 #kisslinux <midfavila> potentially yeeted all tech, potentially was taken out by red hat goons
2021-02-28T16:44:20 #kisslinux <riteo> lmao
2021-02-28T16:44:31 #kisslinux <midfavila> dilyn ereps is replacing dylan araps until further notice
2021-02-28T16:44:34 #kisslinux <midfavila> direct all complaints to him
2021-02-28T16:44:38 #kisslinux <riteo> I see
2021-02-28T16:44:42 #kisslinux <periish[m]> he found the truth about redhats plan
2021-02-28T16:44:52 #kisslinux <merakor> dilyn, i.e fire nation?
2021-02-28T16:44:59 #kisslinux <midfavila> the fire nation is red hat
2021-02-28T16:45:03 #kisslinux <merakor> I see
2021-02-28T16:45:05 #kisslinux <periish[m]> its-
2021-02-28T16:45:06 #kisslinux <periish[m]> oh god theyre here
2021-02-28T16:45:12 #kisslinux <riteo> are there any known long term plans? I read a bit the history of this chat and didn't find anything certain
2021-02-28T16:45:19 #kisslinux <midfavila> i mean
2021-02-28T16:45:20 #kisslinux <midfavila> not really
2021-02-28T16:45:24 #kisslinux <midfavila> KISS is feature-complete
2021-02-28T16:45:34 #kisslinux <periish[m]> kiss-community remains in play
2021-02-28T16:45:41 #kisslinux <midfavila> core packages are in maintenance mode, we might end up working on k
2021-02-28T16:45:42 #kisslinux <midfavila> dunno
2021-02-28T16:45:54 #kisslinux <riteo> k is my main concern actually
2021-02-28T16:45:55 #kisslinux <periish[m]> write it in K style C
2021-02-28T16:45:55 #kisslinux <midfavila> i think there's been some talk of porting stuff to BSD
2021-02-28T16:46:06 #kisslinux <riteo> oh cool
2021-02-28T16:46:27 #kisslinux <periish[m]> not the best of ideas imo
2021-02-28T16:46:39 #kisslinux <riteo> IMO we should just follow the guidelines he wrote, I have a feeling he almost predicted this
2021-02-28T16:46:57 #kisslinux <midfavila> 973rd dimensional chess
2021-02-28T16:47:04 #kisslinux <midfavila> all the pieces are falling into place
2021-02-28T16:47:09 #kisslinux <midfavila> all according to keikaku
2021-02-28T16:47:30 #kisslinux <riteo> I mean, he *made* the whole distro to be completely indipendent by anybody. He wrote guidelines, made everything completely accessible, built a community and vanished
2021-02-28T16:47:44 #kisslinux <testuser_[m]> since packages in bsds are supposed to be more tightly connected together you won't get the choice you get with KISS
2021-02-28T16:47:55 #kisslinux <merakor> It's all a social experiment
2021-02-28T16:47:57 #kisslinux <midfavila> using a standard bsd kernel sure
2021-02-28T16:48:05 #kisslinux <midfavila> but I'm still holding out on hBSD
2021-02-28T16:48:06 #kisslinux <riteo> this is either extremely good foreshadowing or something planned
2021-02-28T16:48:19 #kisslinux <periish[m]> bsd kernels r Hard to seperate from their complex userland
2021-02-28T16:48:20 #kisslinux <testuser_[m]> what's hbsd
2021-02-28T16:48:27 #kisslinux <midfavila> hyperbolaBSD
2021-02-28T16:48:28 #kisslinux <periish[m]> hardended?
2021-02-28T16:48:30 #kisslinux <periish[m]> oh
2021-02-28T16:48:32 #kisslinux <periish[m]> that
2021-02-28T16:48:33 #kisslinux <merakor> Dilyn was in fact Dylan all this time
2021-02-28T16:48:38 #kisslinux <riteo> still, cospiracy theories apart, a status update would be nice by him
2021-02-28T16:48:57 #kisslinux <riteo> I mean, he is actually somewhat alive if he deleted is twitter account
2021-02-28T16:49:03 #kisslinux <periish[m]> i hope hes enjoying his tomatoes
2021-02-28T16:49:28 #kisslinux <merakor> He might have deleted his twitter much before, though
2021-02-28T16:49:44 #kisslinux <periish[m]> thats true
2021-02-28T16:49:44 #kisslinux <testuser_[m]> WHEN did he delete twitter though?
2021-02-28T16:49:45 #kisslinux <midfavila> the bigger tell is that he let his email expire
2021-02-28T16:50:08 #kisslinux <periish[m]> wouldnt that happen regardless
2021-02-28T16:50:16 #kisslinux <midfavila> considering dylan actually seems to care about his personal privacy it's not surprising in the least that he'd wipe social media
2021-02-28T16:50:20 #kisslinux <periish[m]> ay
2021-02-28T16:50:24 #kisslinux <midfavila> but email?
2021-02-28T16:50:28 #kisslinux <testuser_[m]> btw riteo there's king (go) by illiliti and nkiss (C) by noocsharp, WIP alternative pkg manager implementations
2021-02-28T16:50:29 #kisslinux <midfavila> especially the one listed on the site
2021-02-28T16:50:39 #kisslinux <midfavila> >go
2021-02-28T16:50:44 #kisslinux <periish[m]> i played my hand at an rc one
2021-02-28T16:50:46 #kisslinux <riteo> testuser nice
2021-02-28T16:50:55 #kisslinux <periish[m]> but rc is.. not great on unix
2021-02-28T16:51:05 #kisslinux <riteo> I feel that in one way or another, this is what he wanted
2021-02-28T16:51:10 #kisslinux <periish[m]> i never published my efforts; its not worth considering
2021-02-28T16:51:11 #kisslinux <testuser_[m]> http://git.nihaljere.xyz/nkiss/log.html for nkiss, king is on github
2021-02-28T16:51:41 #kisslinux <riteo> nice, thanks for the links
2021-02-28T16:51:48 #kisslinux <periish[m]> i still need to do all the packaging pizazz i promised
2021-02-28T16:52:00 #kisslinux <periish[m]> and push perish-kiss
2021-02-28T16:52:04 #kisslinux <riteo> nice to know that the kiss comunity is still alive and well
2021-02-28T16:52:44 #kisslinux <riteo> Also, does anybody know why dylan last blog has an empty title?
2021-02-28T16:52:49 #kisslinux <riteo> post*
2021-02-28T16:52:52 #kisslinux <periish[m]> must this was handlded way better than void
2021-02-28T16:53:03 #kisslinux <periish[m]> title bloat
2021-02-28T16:53:22 #kisslinux <midfavila> ^
2021-02-28T16:53:46 #kisslinux <testuser_[m]> is perish-kiss the unnamed kiss fork
2021-02-28T16:53:49 #kisslinux <periish[m]> no
2021-02-28T16:53:53 #kisslinux <periish[m]> its my repo
2021-02-28T16:53:55 #kisslinux <riteo> what is perish-kiss?
2021-02-28T16:53:57 #kisslinux <riteo> oh
2021-02-28T16:54:01 #kisslinux <periish[m]> i gave up on my kiss fork
2021-02-28T16:54:05 #kisslinux <periish[m]> cmake is a monster
2021-02-28T16:54:23 #kisslinux <periish[m]> i built it around 7 times i think
2021-02-28T16:54:27 #kisslinux <periish[m]> before giving up
2021-02-28T16:54:30 #kisslinux <testuser_[m]> c++ moment
2021-02-28T16:55:17 #kisslinux <midfavila> cmake makes me want to commit a crime
2021-02-28T16:55:25 #kisslinux <periish[m]> luckily i never got onto rust
2021-02-28T16:55:30 #kisslinux <midfavila> blech
2021-02-28T16:56:26 #kisslinux <periish[m]> perish-kiss contains my personal packages
2021-02-28T16:56:56 #kisslinux <periish[m]> no guarantee any of them work
2021-02-28T16:57:07 #kisslinux <riteo> IMO something like crowbar (the c alternative, not the other thing) would really fit nicely here
2021-02-28T16:57:24 #kisslinux <periish[m]> crowbar?
2021-02-28T16:57:35 #kisslinux <riteo> c, with the good parts
2021-02-28T16:57:43 #kisslinux <riteo> wait, I'll find a link
2021-02-28T16:58:15 #kisslinux <riteo> https://crowbar-lang.org/
2021-02-28T16:58:31 #kisslinux <riteo> it's still experimental and incomplete, but looks really promising
2021-02-28T16:58:46 #kisslinux <midfavila> so obscure hipster language that's totally gonna dethrone C #19274
2021-02-28T16:58:52 #kisslinux <periish[m]> im more invested in Zih
2021-02-28T16:58:58 #kisslinux <riteo> it's like rust, but replacing c and better
2021-02-28T16:59:06 #kisslinux <riteo> midfavilla: yeah pretty much
2021-02-28T16:59:06 #kisslinux <midfavila> yeah nah
2021-02-28T16:59:27 #kisslinux <periish[m]> zig solves a decent few problems with C in a nice way
2021-02-28T16:59:43 #kisslinux <periish[m]> while retaining full interop
2021-02-28T17:00:13 #kisslinux <periish[m]> it wont replace C but it gives you choices
2021-02-28T17:00:14 #kisslinux <riteo> zig has a very weird sintax, I like crowbar idea because it aims to look very familiar to c
2021-02-28T17:00:30 #kisslinux <riteo> crowbar's*
2021-02-28T17:00:52 #kisslinux <midfavila> or just write proper C instead of learning an entirely new language
2021-02-28T17:00:55 #kisslinux <midfavila> idk
2021-02-28T17:01:12 #kisslinux <riteo> the same logic could be applied to assembly
2021-02-28T17:01:22 #kisslinux <periish[m]> zig has my fav kind of metaprogramming
2021-02-28T17:01:23 #kisslinux <periish[m]> just normal programming
2021-02-28T17:01:23 #kisslinux <periish[m]> but at compiletime
2021-02-28T17:01:26 #kisslinux <riteo> people said the same things with C back then
2021-02-28T17:01:32 #kisslinux <midfavila> i mean
2021-02-28T17:01:34 #kisslinux <midfavila> not really
2021-02-28T17:01:38 #kisslinux <midfavila> C was a "portable assembler"
2021-02-28T17:01:47 #kisslinux <midfavila> main advantage is that you don't have to rewrite stuff every time
2021-02-28T17:02:05 #kisslinux <midfavila> point is
2021-02-28T17:02:17 #kisslinux <periish[m]> i dont get where the portable assembler myth comes from
2021-02-28T17:02:24 #kisslinux <midfavila> if you're gonna go through a bunch of effort to write a language and toolchain to dump on top of C
2021-02-28T17:02:31 #kisslinux <midfavila> just refine your C programming abilities
2021-02-28T17:02:41 #kisslinux <periish[m]> c doesnt remotely match the power of the assemblers of the time
2021-02-28T17:02:52 #kisslinux <riteo> oh but crowbar isn't meant to be on top of c
2021-02-28T17:02:54 #kisslinux <midfavila> the key word is "portable"
2021-02-28T17:02:57 #kisslinux <periish[m]> nor was it portable
2021-02-28T17:03:11 #kisslinux <riteo> that's the whole point, it aims not to add things to c, but to refine it
2021-02-28T17:03:21 #kisslinux <konimex> man I don't care about which programming to use as long as I can compile the compiler from my current C/C++ compiler and not the bootstrapping mess that is rust
2021-02-28T17:03:34 #kisslinux <konimex> s/programming/programming language/
2021-02-28T17:03:54 #kisslinux <riteo> it plans to add a compile-to-c option IIRC
2021-02-28T17:04:00 #kisslinux <periish[m]> early C compilers were baaaaad
2021-02-28T17:05:31 #kisslinux <periish[m]> does anyone know where the portable assembler claim is from
2021-02-28T17:06:16 #kisslinux <riteo> I don't know honestly
2021-02-28T17:06:29 #kisslinux <testuser_[m]> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/3040276/when-did-people-first-start-thinking-c-is-portable-assembler
2021-02-28T17:06:31 #kisslinux <riteo> I too recall something about portable assembly
2021-02-28T17:07:25 #kisslinux <midfavila> so K&R 1st
2021-02-28T17:07:26 #kisslinux <midfavila> huh
2021-02-28T17:07:33 #kisslinux <periish[m]> that SO doesnt provide a satisfactory answer really
2021-02-28T17:07:46 #kisslinux <midfavila> i mean
2021-02-28T17:07:51 #kisslinux <midfavila> it answers your question
2021-02-28T17:08:05 #kisslinux <periish[m]> it talks about portability being mentioned but nothing of that specific phrasing
2021-02-28T17:08:12 #kisslinux <periish[m]> which is what im interested in
2021-02-28T17:09:04 #kisslinux <periish[m]> c wasnt even designed for portability
2021-02-28T17:09:20 #kisslinux <midfavila> so then what was it designed for?
2021-02-28T17:09:33 #kisslinux <midfavila> every time I've heard someone talk about its design goals, portability was like. number one
2021-02-28T17:09:52 #kisslinux <periish[m]> it was designed for unix
2021-02-28T17:10:02 #kisslinux <midfavila> ...and?
2021-02-28T17:10:12 #kisslinux <periish[m]> bell labs c compilers were very unportable
2021-02-28T17:10:21 #kisslinux <riteo> wait, wasn't unix already written in assembly before?
2021-02-28T17:10:27 #kisslinux <konimex> wasn't it made specifically for PDP-11?
2021-02-28T17:10:29 #kisslinux <midfavila> the first version was written in asm
2021-02-28T17:10:30 #kisslinux <periish[m]> yea
2021-02-28T17:10:34 #kisslinux <midfavila> then rewritten in C later on
2021-02-28T17:10:43 #kisslinux <midfavila> then that C was ported to a bunch of other shit
2021-02-28T17:10:47 #kisslinux <riteo> i too recall a story about porting unix to c for portability
2021-02-28T17:11:04 #kisslinux <periish[m]> the first portable c compiler was invented after unix
2021-02-28T17:11:15 #kisslinux <midfavila> that doesn't really change anything
2021-02-28T17:11:34 #kisslinux <periish[m]> c was heavily modelled after the pdp 11
2021-02-28T17:11:42 #kisslinux <riteo> I mean, it's also true that you can write platform dependent c code
2021-02-28T17:11:57 #kisslinux <midfavila> i dunno man last I heard C was based on B
2021-02-28T17:11:59 #kisslinux <midfavila> :v
2021-02-28T17:12:04 #kisslinux <riteo> yeah same thing
2021-02-28T17:12:25 #kisslinux <periish[m]> yea and B was a bunch of compromises to get algol++ on the pdp
2021-02-28T17:12:33 #kisslinux <midfavila> again
2021-02-28T17:12:34 #kisslinux <midfavila> and?
2021-02-28T17:12:50 #kisslinux <midfavila> literally all of computing is compromises in some form or another
2021-02-28T17:12:53 #kisslinux <periish[m]> what are you saying
2021-02-28T17:13:09 #kisslinux <midfavila> i'm saying that what you're saying makes no sense.
2021-02-28T17:13:34 #kisslinux <midfavila> C has always been designed for portability
2021-02-28T17:13:47 #kisslinux <periish[m]> do you have an actual source
2021-02-28T17:13:52 #kisslinux <midfavila> and that's even one of the things a lot of people contribute UNIX's success to
2021-02-28T17:13:53 #kisslinux <midfavila> and uh
2021-02-28T17:14:02 #kisslinux <midfavila> the SO post above literally quotes K&R 1st
2021-02-28T17:14:05 #kisslinux <midfavila> so
2021-02-28T17:14:07 #kisslinux <midfavila> that's pretty primary
2021-02-28T17:14:16 #kisslinux <riteo> fair
2021-02-28T17:15:31 #kisslinux <periish[m]> none of k&r talks about design; only what it is
2021-02-28T17:15:48 #kisslinux <periish[m]> the web is the most portable application distributor not by design
2021-02-28T17:15:49 #kisslinux <periish[m]> but it is
2021-02-28T17:15:58 #kisslinux <midfavila> something something jvm
2021-02-28T17:16:01 #kisslinux <riteo> what
2021-02-28T17:16:09 #kisslinux <riteo> what does that mean
2021-02-28T17:16:32 #kisslinux <riteo> how can something designed be something not by design
2021-02-28T17:16:47 #kisslinux <midfavila> at the end of the day this is a stupid argument
2021-02-28T17:16:51 #kisslinux <riteo> it's not like they accidentally wrote c to be portable
2021-02-28T17:16:57 #kisslinux <periish[m]> like, sadly the web is the only way to write an application thatll work on most OSes
2021-02-28T17:16:58 #kisslinux <periish[m]> this was not a design goal of the web
2021-02-28T17:17:11 #kisslinux <midfavila> if you write webapps you contribute to the problem
2021-02-28T17:17:13 #kisslinux <midfavila> just saying
2021-02-28T17:17:18 #kisslinux <midfavila> cut that shit out
2021-02-28T17:17:18 #kisslinux <riteo> yeah, but this is a whole other issue
2021-02-28T17:17:38 #kisslinux <periish[m]> the web had no design behind it, as evidenced by the w3c standards
2021-02-28T17:17:44 #kisslinux <midfavila> i mean, it did
2021-02-28T17:17:50 #kisslinux <midfavila> just a very loose design
2021-02-28T17:17:57 #kisslinux <midfavila> honestly the xanadu project would have been better
2021-02-28T17:18:04 #kisslinux <riteo> technically this is by design, since all you're doing is sending javascript programs or even actual binary stuff (look at DRM) and running it
2021-02-28T17:18:14 #kisslinux <riteo> xanadu?
2021-02-28T17:18:22 #kisslinux <midfavila> the original computerized hypertext system
2021-02-28T17:18:29 #kisslinux <midfavila> from all the way back in like the 60s I think
2021-02-28T17:18:34 #kisslinux <midfavila> based on MEMEX
2021-02-28T17:18:39 #kisslinux <midfavila> which dates from the 30s or 40s
2021-02-28T17:18:40 #kisslinux <riteo> oh I never heard on it
2021-02-28T17:18:52 #kisslinux <midfavila> not surprising
2021-02-28T17:18:53 #kisslinux <riteo> of*
2021-02-28T17:18:54 #kisslinux <periish[m]> did memex ever become more than an idea
2021-02-28T17:19:03 #kisslinux <periish[m]> that had varying impls
2021-02-28T17:19:07 #kisslinux * midfavila coughs loudly and stares directly at the Web
2021-02-28T17:19:42 #kisslinux <periish[m]> web doesnt exactly fit the bill
2021-02-28T17:19:48 #kisslinux <periish[m]> easy to get shit from
2021-02-28T17:19:59 #kisslinux <periish[m]> hard to put shit on
2021-02-28T17:20:10 #kisslinux <midfavila> it's not that hard
2021-02-28T17:20:22 #kisslinux <riteo> kind of
2021-02-28T17:20:23 #kisslinux <periish[m]> memex idea was to make it easy as hell
2021-02-28T17:20:24 #kisslinux <midfavila> and even then memex doesn't talk about it being "easy"
2021-02-28T17:20:30 #kisslinux <midfavila> just fast and flexible
2021-02-28T17:20:47 #kisslinux <midfavila> which if you don't inhale hundreds of megs of trackers and JS you can fit HTTP into that pretty easily
2021-02-28T17:20:59 #kisslinux <midfavila> although Xanadu is much more closely linked to MEMEX last I checked
2021-02-28T17:21:56 #kisslinux <midfavila> fun fact the guy in charge of xanadu is the same dude who wrote computer lib/dream machines
2021-02-28T17:21:59 #kisslinux <midfavila> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Xanadu
2021-02-28T17:22:24 #kisslinux <periish[m]> i hear about xanadu but i never see it work
2021-02-28T17:22:39 #kisslinux <midfavila> that's because it's been in development hell for like half a century
2021-02-28T17:22:51 #kisslinux <periish[m]> yea
2021-02-28T17:22:56 #kisslinux <periish[m]> exactly what i mean
2021-02-28T17:22:58 #kisslinux <midfavila> they have a working prototype but
2021-02-28T17:23:18 #kisslinux <periish[m]> took 50 years?
2021-02-28T17:23:45 #kisslinux <periish[m]> 2300: year of xanadu
2021-02-28T17:23:46 #kisslinux <midfavila> considering the dude running it had to deal with multiple corporate takeovers, multiple codebase splits, bankruptcy (multiple times), lack of equipment,
2021-02-28T17:24:15 #kisslinux <midfavila> not to mention that it's literally just a handful of guys
2021-02-28T17:24:19 #kisslinux <midfavila> no big dev team or anything
2021-02-28T17:26:09 #kisslinux <riteo> this reminds me of hurd
2021-02-28T17:26:20 #kisslinux <midfavila> it's a similar hell, yeah
2021-02-28T17:26:21 #kisslinux <periish[m]> something about managing expectations
2021-02-28T17:26:45 #kisslinux <midfavila> too ambitious for the technology and resources of the time, then some smaller project comes along and totally steals your thunder
2021-02-28T17:26:47 #kisslinux <midfavila> it's kinda sad
2021-02-28T17:27:32 #kisslinux <riteo> yeah
2021-02-28T17:31:40 #kisslinux <midfavila> man I hate when I'm playing a game and discover a game-ruining bug in the middle of a good run
2021-02-28T17:32:01 #kisslinux <periish[m]> eh, i think hurd wouldve flopped regardless
2021-02-28T17:32:41 #kisslinux <periish[m]> linux or otherwise
2021-02-28T17:32:54 #kisslinux <midfavila> Maybe.
2021-02-28T17:33:45 #kisslinux <periish[m]> mach had some big design flaws
2021-02-28T17:34:07 #kisslinux <periish[m]> even where it was adopted it was basically purged of all mach
2021-02-28T17:35:28 #kisslinux <testuser_[m]> hi dilyn
2021-02-28T17:36:35 #kisslinux <periish[m]> even OSF/1 removed the bit that made mach mach
2021-02-28T17:38:30 #kisslinux <riteo> weren't hurd developers experimenting with an L4 microkernel too?
2021-02-28T17:39:35 #kisslinux <dilyn> hi hello :)
2021-02-28T17:39:37 #kisslinux <dilyn> thanks periish:
2021-02-28T17:39:40 #kisslinux <dilyn> (catching up on logs)
2021-02-28T17:40:44 #kisslinux <periish[m]> later and earlier micro and monolithic kernels proved to be better than mach
2021-02-28T17:40:50 #kisslinux <periish[m]> its a sad state of affairs
2021-02-28T17:41:22 #kisslinux <periish[m]> hell, plan 9's explicitly monolithic kernel was smaller and more performant than mach
2021-02-28T17:41:34 #kisslinux <dilyn> Switching to openssl seems like a waste of time, no? afaik libressl is at least as safe, if not moreso, and the only actually labor intensive patching is for qt5
2021-02-28T17:42:06 #kisslinux <sh4rm4^bnc> the greatest advantage of libressl is its perl-less build system imo
2021-02-28T17:42:12 #kisslinux <dilyn> indeed
2021-02-28T17:42:19 #kisslinux <dilyn> not having perl is core/ is a *nice* thing imo
2021-02-28T17:42:35 #kisslinux <testuser_[m]> yeah
2021-02-28T17:43:15 #kisslinux <periish[m]> yea
2021-02-28T17:43:31 #kisslinux <dilyn> I would strongly considering switching to something else in the case where using libressl is untenable, either from not supporting critical things, gaping unfixed security flaws, or no upstream activity
2021-02-28T17:43:51 #kisslinux <riteo> wait, what's wrong with libressl?
2021-02-28T17:43:53 #kisslinux <dilyn> but I don't see that happening - if openssl actually offered us something incredible than maybe
2021-02-28T17:43:57 #kisslinux <periish[m]> nothing
2021-02-28T17:44:00 #kisslinux <riteo> I recall it being better than openssl
2021-02-28T17:44:02 #kisslinux <dilyn> Nothing afaik. people just mentioned it
2021-02-28T17:44:02 #kisslinux <riteo> oh
2021-02-28T17:44:12 #kisslinux <periish[m]> libressl just proved too much for void because void is complex
2021-02-28T17:44:26 #kisslinux <riteo> dilyn: oh I must've read your message wrong then
2021-02-28T17:44:34 #kisslinux <dilyn> it was strictly better than openssl for a time, but I think they've become relatively even. openssl is just... bloatier
2021-02-28T17:44:38 #kisslinux <periish[m]> and gentoo too
2021-02-28T17:44:49 #kisslinux <periish[m]> two recent switches from libressl
2021-02-28T17:44:52 #kisslinux <dilyn> tbf they support far more packages than us so it changes the calculs u
2021-02-28T17:44:54 #kisslinux <periish[m]> and that lwn article
2021-02-28T17:44:58 #kisslinux <dilyn> s/calculs u/calculus
2021-02-28T17:45:13 #kisslinux <testuser_[m]> ^
2021-02-28T17:45:24 #kisslinux <dilyn> also KISS is definitely a coffee distro, not a tea distro
2021-02-28T17:45:28 #kisslinux <dilyn> nice try midfavila:
2021-02-28T17:45:37 #kisslinux <riteo> what does that mean
2021-02-28T17:45:55 #kisslinux <midfavila> fight me fucker
2021-02-28T17:45:58 #kisslinux <midfavila> rn
2021-02-28T17:46:00 #kisslinux <midfavila> >:c
2021-02-28T17:46:08 #kisslinux <midfavila> parking lot outside mcdonald's, let's go
2021-02-28T17:46:19 #kisslinux <riteo> which mcdonald's though
2021-02-28T17:46:22 #kisslinux <midfavila> yes
2021-02-28T17:46:27 #kisslinux <riteo> ok
2021-02-28T17:46:34 #kisslinux <midfavila> this is a multidimensional battle
2021-02-28T17:46:42 #kisslinux <dilyn> lmao
2021-02-28T17:46:43 #kisslinux <midfavila> transcending time and space
2021-02-28T17:46:53 #kisslinux <riteo> time to play 5833th dimensional chess too, just like dylan
2021-02-28T17:46:54 #kisslinux <midfavila> we're meeting at the mcdonalds beyond the edge of the universe
2021-02-28T17:47:03 #kisslinux <riteo> they're everywhere
2021-02-28T17:47:09 #kisslinux <riteo> what if you're dylan
2021-02-28T17:47:15 #kisslinux <midfavila> i always was dylan
2021-02-28T17:47:17 #kisslinux <riteo> what if I'm dylan
2021-02-28T17:47:21 #kisslinux <midfavila> you're me
2021-02-28T17:47:26 #kisslinux <midfavila> everyone in #kisslinux is me
2021-02-28T17:47:27 #kisslinux <riteo> what if we're all dylan
2021-02-28T17:47:44 #kisslinux <riteo> what if this was all a dream in dylan head
2021-02-28T17:47:52 #kisslinux <riteo> while he's in a coma
2021-02-28T17:48:01 #kisslinux <midfavila> a coma caused by red hat
2021-02-28T17:48:03 #kisslinux <midfavila> of course
2021-02-28T17:48:08 #kisslinux <midfavila> how could we have been so blind
2021-02-28T17:48:37 #kisslinux <riteo> this is a breakthrough
2021-02-28T17:48:59 #kisslinux <riteo> now we have to exit the simulation
2021-02-28T17:49:15 #kisslinux <riteo> now what's the right pill
2021-02-28T17:49:18 #kisslinux <riteo> OH NO
2021-02-28T17:49:24 #kisslinux <midfavila> the caffeine pill
2021-02-28T17:49:28 #kisslinux <midfavila> obvs
2021-02-28T17:49:47 #kisslinux <riteo> so the matrix lied
2021-02-28T17:49:52 #kisslinux <riteo> all a plan of RED hat
2021-02-28T17:49:59 #kisslinux <riteo> they know more than us
2021-02-28T17:50:28 #kisslinux <riteo> the RED pill is a RED herring
2021-02-28T17:54:41 #kisslinux <riteo> btw is dilyn name a coincidence or what
2021-02-28T17:54:46 #kisslinux <midfavila> yes
2021-02-28T17:54:57 #kisslinux <riteo> incredible
2021-02-28T17:55:00 #kisslinux <dilyn> yeah lol
2021-02-28T17:55:07 #kisslinux <dilyn> I am older than dylan it better be a coincidence!
2021-02-28T17:55:17 #kisslinux <midfavila> boomer time
2021-02-28T17:55:18 #kisslinux <riteo> but, what if he's dylan?
2021-02-28T17:55:45 #kisslinux <riteo> ok, I think I'll stop with the dylan is everywhere meme
2021-02-28T17:56:08 #kisslinux <dilyn> re wayland in the main repos: one day, maybe. Not any time soon. Xorg has to basically become the strictly worse choice in every standard workflow. Until for instance, they get a reliably working copy-paste, wayland will never be the standard xD
2021-02-28T17:56:31 #kisslinux <riteo> thinking about it, why is wayland in its own repo?
2021-02-28T17:56:45 #kisslinux <dilyn> Of course documentation for using it can end up in the wiki, but the repos will be user supported I think
2021-02-28T17:56:48 #kisslinux <midfavila> because it's garbage software
2021-02-28T17:57:04 #kisslinux <dilyn> dylan didn't really use wayland so he probably had no interest in offering support for it
2021-02-28T17:57:27 #kisslinux <dilyn> I ONLY use wayland so I might setup some sort of kiss-wayland that I keep up-to-date, but it would be separate from repo & community
2021-02-28T17:57:38 #kisslinux <riteo> yeah but he even added it to the "blacklist"
2021-02-28T17:57:46 #kisslinux <riteo> why?
2021-02-28T17:57:47 #kisslinux <dilyn> but one already exists, so I see no need to do that myself :)
2021-02-28T17:57:56 #kisslinux <riteo> yeah
2021-02-28T17:58:13 #kisslinux <dilyn> he did indeed! Probably because it's been 'coming' for the last ten years and KDE only JUST RECENTLY decided it was good enough
2021-02-28T17:58:28 #kisslinux <dilyn> firefox still doesn't support wayland-only, chromium only got it last month working perfectly
2021-02-28T17:58:52 #kisslinux <riteo> mh, so if things finally get unstuck would it be removed from that list?
2021-02-28T17:58:53 #kisslinux <dilyn> It's mature, it's just not solid. Xorg justwerks(tm), at least well-enough
2021-02-28T17:59:14 #kisslinux <dilyn> I could see that change happening. I think the biggest thing to do it though would be nobody working on xorg. it's already entered maintenance mode
2021-02-28T17:59:25 #kisslinux <riteo> AFAIK that list was made to avoid very complex and heavy dependency chains
2021-02-28T17:59:44 #kisslinux <dilyn> the guy who'd been maintaining it the last 10+ years stopped a little while back, so it's only a matter of time
2021-02-28T17:59:56 #kisslinux <riteo> thinking about it, it'd make more sense to move xorg and all of its stuff to another repo, instead of merging wayland
2021-02-28T18:00:17 #kisslinux <riteo> what do you mean?
2021-02-28T18:00:40 #kisslinux <riteo> oh, the mantainer of xorg
2021-02-28T18:00:51 #kisslinux <riteo> yeah then, I agree
2021-02-28T18:01:21 #kisslinux <dilyn> it's mentioned here but he wrote a blog https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=X.Org-Maintenance-Mode-Quickly
2021-02-28T18:01:26 #kisslinux <dilyn> forget where it is
2021-02-28T18:02:53 #kisslinux <riteo> I guess that when xorg will finally become obsolete enough, it will be replaced entirely by wayland, leaving only xwayland behind it
2021-02-28T18:03:08 #kisslinux <riteo> I mean, in the package manager
2021-02-28T18:03:53 #kisslinux <riteo> probably the biggest issue right now is Nvidia compatibility, but kiss already doesn't support it properly
2021-02-28T18:04:11 #kisslinux <dilyn> nvidia is trash and nobody should support them financially >=|
2021-02-28T18:04:16 #kisslinux <midfavila> ^
2021-02-28T18:04:20 #kisslinux <dilyn> fuck their software, fuck their brand
2021-02-28T18:04:22 #kisslinux <midfavila> use AMD or Intel graphics
2021-02-28T18:04:24 #kisslinux <midfavila> nvidilet
2021-02-28T18:04:32 #kisslinux <riteo> yeah I agree
2021-02-28T18:04:40 #kisslinux <midfavila> shame the nvidia apologist
2021-02-28T18:04:40 #kisslinux <riteo> nvidia is shit
2021-02-28T18:04:48 #kisslinux <midfavila> banish him to /dev/urandom, land of chaos
2021-02-28T18:04:55 #kisslinux <dilyn> nvidia is poorly supported for basically any distro, musl is just icing on the proverible itdontwerk cake
2021-02-28T18:05:07 #kisslinux <midfavila> that just means linux bad
2021-02-28T18:05:09 #kisslinux <midfavila> windows good
2021-02-28T18:05:12 #kisslinux <dilyn> f
2021-02-28T18:05:14 #kisslinux <dilyn> you got me
2021-02-28T18:05:21 #kisslinux <midfavila> GNUtard btfo'd
2021-02-28T18:05:22 #kisslinux <dilyn> welp guys, looks like we're done here. it was fun
2021-02-28T18:05:31 #kisslinux <midfavila> the entire free software movement has been destroyed
2021-02-28T18:05:33 #kisslinux <riteo> yeah, but it is undeniably pretty common, I find it sadly the #1 reason of wayland unpopularity
2021-02-28T18:06:05 #kisslinux <dilyn> Yeah I hate that nvidia has had basically 95% of all gpu marketshare for the last fifteen years
2021-02-28T18:06:15 #kisslinux <soliwilos> I rather like wayland.
2021-02-28T18:06:31 #kisslinux <midfavila> wayland would be great if it had more than GNOME and the krashing desktop environment
2021-02-28T18:06:35 #kisslinux <midfavila> and like five billion tilers
2021-02-28T18:06:43 #kisslinux <riteo> I have an nvidia card and planned to switch to AMD expecially to use this distro as a daily driver, but a pandemic messed up the prices too much
2021-02-28T18:06:46 #kisslinux <dilyn> but the new amd cards are fucking *fire*, which is partially why they've been out of stock everywhere since launch day
2021-02-28T18:06:58 #kisslinux <riteo> yeah
2021-02-28T18:06:58 #kisslinux <midfavila> i just have a WX5100
2021-02-28T18:07:06 #kisslinux <dilyn> riteo: that's literally the only thing stopping me from getting a new pc rn lmao
2021-02-28T18:07:07 #kisslinux <midfavila> it's pretty decent, especially for a single-slot
2021-02-28T18:07:22 #kisslinux <dilyn> if only the 3900x had integrated graphics :'(
2021-02-28T18:07:52 #kisslinux <midfavila> i'm definitely glad I got my new machine when I did though
2021-02-28T18:08:04 #kisslinux <midfavila> price for it would have about doubled if I'd waited
2021-02-28T18:08:43 #kisslinux <riteo> sadly AMD cards before RDNA are kinda shitty regarding power consumption (I bought and refunded one right before the pandemic because of power issues), so there's a sort of price barrier that has to go down to switch to AMD rn
2021-02-28T18:09:45 #kisslinux <dilyn> ataraxia fucking packaged their own version of grub that presumably fixes the bug that just appeared so now repology thinks our grub is out of date
2021-02-28T18:09:48 #kisslinux <dilyn> wtf, morons
2021-02-28T18:10:06 #kisslinux <riteo> hkw
2021-02-28T18:10:08 #kisslinux <riteo> how*
2021-02-28T18:11:02 #kisslinux <riteo> I thought repology checked the project version, not the latest package of any distro
2021-02-28T18:11:09 #kisslinux <dilyn> they just host a release on their github and named it 2.0.5 so now repology thinks that's the version
2021-02-28T18:11:17 #kisslinux <dilyn> yeah idk but the gnu server only has 2.0.4
2021-02-28T18:11:31 #kisslinux <dilyn> something messed up somewhere and i am now unhappy
2021-02-28T18:12:36 #kisslinux <riteo> that's sad
2021-02-28T18:12:53 #kisslinux <midfavila> dilyn play despacito
2021-02-28T18:13:33 #kisslinux <riteo> lmao
2021-02-28T18:14:03 #kisslinux <chrchwrdn> dilyn do I see that you fixed that grub issue I brought up last week?
2021-02-28T18:14:20 #kisslinux <chrchwrdn> I saw an update and file sizes shrank so presume it's all sorted now
2021-02-28T18:15:01 #kisslinux <riteo> gtg, this place has been a great pleasure to be in. See ya next time! :)
2021-02-28T18:15:11 #kisslinux <dilyn> yeah i confirmed the size change and somebody said it worked for them!
2021-02-28T18:15:19 #kisslinux <dilyn> ciao riteo:
2021-02-28T18:17:10 #kisslinux <chrchwrdn> Fantastic, thanks for that
2021-02-28T18:29:54 #kisslinux <dilyn> now how can I edit this template that makes it obvious I want the manifest for new packages AND updates...
2021-02-28T18:31:13 #kisslinux <dilyn> is 'for version bumps' or 'non-rel version bumps' a better phrase hmhmhm
2021-02-28T18:36:02 #kisslinux <dilyn> did libinput revert their version update? smh what the hell happened this week! everything is bad
2021-02-28T18:36:11 #kisslinux <midfavila> tell me about it
2021-02-28T18:36:56 #kisslinux <dilyn> 1.17 came out the 23rd, 1.16.5 came out the 24th. but the version notes say it's the last 1.16* rel until 1.17 comes out. How confusing.
2021-02-28T18:37:02 #kisslinux <dilyn> Let's just drop support for input devices
2021-02-28T18:37:42 #kisslinux <midfavila> I agree
2021-02-28T19:01:25 #kisslinux <nerditup> X11 as a service
2021-02-28T19:01:48 #kisslinux <nerditup> Everything is controlled with an API over the network
2021-02-28T19:02:25 #kisslinux <dilyn> you've made me violently ill
2021-02-28T19:06:34 #kisslinux <midfavila1> coming soon to an init system near you
2021-02-28T19:06:42 #kisslinux <midfavila1> systemd/-xorgd
2021-02-28T19:30:58 #kisslinux <periish[m]> that was how x11 worked
2021-02-28T19:50:55 #kisslinux <dilyn> something horrific seems to have happened to my kiss! it just exits after kiss u. rip
2021-02-28T19:55:28 #kisslinux <mcpcpc[m]> :’(
2021-02-28T20:06:14 #kisslinux <soliwilos> dilyn: Is your KISS_PATH intact and correct?
2021-02-28T20:10:13 #kisslinux <dilyn> but ofc
2021-02-28T20:13:34 #kisslinux <midfavila> blech, I gotta study algorithims
2021-02-28T20:13:54 #kisslinux <midfavila> been working on the same goddamn problem in SICP for three days now at least
2021-02-28T20:14:05 #kisslinux <midfavila> can't logic out a solution :|
2021-02-28T20:14:39 #kisslinux <dilyn> algorithms are annoying
2021-02-28T20:14:59 #kisslinux <midfavila> i think they're neat. it's just a matter of memorization for me
2021-02-28T20:15:16 #kisslinux <midfavila> i really didn't want to have to look up bubble sorting but I also have zero experience with it
2021-02-28T20:15:20 #kisslinux <midfavila> so... meh
2021-02-28T20:16:59 #kisslinux <dilyn> bubble sort is best sort
2021-02-28T20:17:18 #kisslinux <midfavila> well it's the best sort until I figure out better sorts
2021-02-28T20:17:28 #kisslinux <midfavila> but for finding the two largest numbers in a list it'll do
2021-02-28T20:18:03 #kisslinux <midfavila> it's overkill for that but idec at this point
2021-02-28T23:21:50 #kisslinux <howdyyall> i'm trying to get wifi to work on my fresh kiss install. whenever i type "ip a" my device is not listed. would this suggest that I have misconfigured my kernel to not support my wireless card?
2021-02-28T23:33:26 #kisslinux <necromansy> howdyyall: what drive is your wireless card?
2021-02-28T23:33:49 #kisslinux <necromansy> *driver
2021-02-28T23:38:06 #kisslinux <soliwilos> ath9k
2021-02-28T23:39:30 #kisslinux <howdyyall> lspci -k says it's a Qualcomm Atheros AR928X Wireless Network Adapter. I don't see that specfically in Wireless LAN section in the make menuconfig
2021-02-28T23:42:11 #kisslinux <necromansy> looks like thats ath9k
2021-02-28T23:42:51 #kisslinux <acheam> https://wireless.wiki.kernel.org/en/users/Drivers/ath9k
2021-02-28T23:43:21 #kisslinux <necromansy> ^
2021-02-28T23:43:49 #kisslinux <necromansy> gotta make sure you enable it as a module then modprobe that doozy
2021-02-28T23:45:18 #kisslinux <howdyyall> thanks. i'm rebuilding the kernel now
2021-02-28T23:55:53 #kisslinux <acheam> current progress of the KISS fortune file
2021-02-28T23:55:55 #kisslinux <acheam> https://envs.sh/pk.txt
2021-02-28T23:56:10 #kisslinux <acheam> but first I have to actually package fortune, which is a bigger task than it sounds
2021-02-28T23:57:23 #kisslinux <acheam> fortune-mod requires a lot of perl stuff to build, and openbsd fortune works, but there's no good way of downloading just that portion of the source code as far as I can tell
2021-02-28T23:58:27 #kisslinux <acheam> I might rewrite it in awk