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kfyi-593.pt1 000666 000000 000000 00000036074 05400446102 011143 0 ustar 00 000000 000000 KFYI Phoenix, 910 AM
Kim Kommando Show 5-22-93
Segment One
Cast of Speakers:
KK: Kim Kommando
MR: Mind Rape
MY: Mercury
B : Bruce
--: Any caller
A : Announcer
Intro Music...
A : And now another hour of Arizona's most exciting news/talk radio
continues as KFYI shows you how to take command of your computer.
Now here's KFYI's PC expert and syndicated columnist Kim Kommando.
KK: And here we are. We're gonna be taking command of that computer for
the next two hours. 6 to 8 PM here on 910 KFYI. Any computer question.
All you gotta do is pick up the phone and dial now. You are gonna be
renting the nerds for the next two hours. 258-5394. 258-KFYI. We've got
two lines open. You don't have to read the manuals. You don't have to
ask your friends and neighbors what kind of computer software that, that
you should buy. Because you what? They may not have the right answer. All
you gotta do is pick up the phone and give us a call. 258-5394. 258-KFYI.
Any computer question. And I guarantee you that we'll know the answer or
do our best to have the right answer for you. And again, we have one line
open. 258-5394. And joining us today, two very special guests. Well, Bruce
is here. Bruce is our, our techno-extrodinaire. He knows the bits and
bytes of the universe.
B : Personally.
KK: Personally knows them. He can call them by name. But our special guests.
Their names. The first one is Mind Rape. Yes, his mother and father are
proud of that name, but I don't think that they gave it to him. And then
we also have Merc. Short for Mercury. And these two gentleman, what, what
they do. Now there's good uses of technology. And this is the stuff like
word processing. And you can write a book. You can help your business
grow. You can make yourself more productive. You can give your kids an
advantage for the future. And those are the good uses of technology.
And, if we think about it, we got computer chips in our washer machines,
in our toasters, in our coffee machines. Just about any place you look
around there is a computer chip somewhere lurking in the mist. But what
about the bad things that technology does? I mean, Merc, we got a phone
call about a, probably about 6 months ago now, a guy called in and said,
"You know Kim, computers are terrible. My father used to work, believe it
or not, at a shoe factory." I remember the caller. "At a shoe factory and
computers displaced everybody there. My father is 60 years old and he has
no job. No money. And I have to support him. And I don't think what you
are doing is a service by, by having a computer show." Well I said thank
you very much and, you know, on to the next caller please. Thank you.
Well, some other bad uses of technology is quote unquote hacking. And
what hacking is is when you, when you use your computer to do unscrupulous
things, in my opinion. And certainly hacking is not what a lot of people
would call the best way to use of technology. But yet, the hackers exist.
They've been around. You've seen the headlines. You know, "Billions Stolen
From a Bank." You know, and normally we're talking about, about people
that aren't so, you know that they're not old, folks, you know normally
they're in their teens and they get a little bored and need something to
do, in my opinion. And, and hence comes the word hacking. And so joining
us, we have a, we have two gentlemen here. The first one's Mind Rape,
again. The second one's Merc. And gentleman, I'd like to to say thanks
for coming down. And, ah, I guess I am just gonna start out by asking you
what is, what is the worst thing that you have done. And I am going
to pose the question to you Mind Rape. And ah, now you're a married man.
I see a ring on your finger. Ok. You have a family?
MR: Ah, Yes.
KK: Ok. And ah, ah, you have any kids? You got kids?
MR. Yes
KK: Ok. How old are you kids?
MR. That's not really important here.
KK: Ok. Well, I know, I just want to establish the fact that you are a family
man. You got values. You got morals.You're married. You're not just
fooling around, you know, and, and, so on and so forth. What do you think
is the worst thing that you've done by hacking?
MR: Ummm, as in worst as in the best accomplishment that I have done?
KK: Well I don't if I would, I guess, I don't know if, if we would call it an
accomplishment, but if you want to use the word accomplishment, I
understand. But, what do you think it is, and I'll use your words, what is
your best accomplishment that you have done with a computer.
MR: Ah, I would have to say, taking control over a major phone
company system.
KK: Ok. So you took control of the phone system. What does that mean when,
when you say you took control.
MR: We accessed their systems and, umm, we were full, we had full system
privledges, we controlled everything. We were God.
KK: Ok. You were God. quote unquote?
MR: Uhuh.
KK: Ok. And, and, you accessed their systems. Could fool around with the
billing? I mean, Could you make free long distance calls? Could you...
MR: We could have. That wasn't the point.
KK: What was the point?
MR: Just to see if we could do it.
KK: Ok. Then once you got in there what'd you do? Did you do anything malicious?
MR: No! No. No, that is, we do not, Merc and I do not believe in that.
That is totally unethical.
KK: So its kinda like a game then? To see if you can get in?
MR: Ah...Yeah...
MY: No...
MR: You wouldn't call it a game?
MY: No, its more of a way of life. A philosophy.
KK: Ok. So this is a philosophy. Now that's an interesting word to use...
its a philosophy.
MY: It is.
KK: Ah...Explain that.
MY: Well, first before I can explain it, I would like to readdress your
previous definition of hackers. A hacker isn't necessarily someone
interested in breaking the law. I don't think you can build a case
that someone who broke the law is a hacker. They might have used hacking
skills to accomplish their goal, but that does make them a hacker in our
guild.
KK: Ok. So you don't think hacking is bad.
MR: No.
MY: I think their are positive uses of hacking skills.
KK: Ok. And, well, there are, you know, positive uses of guns. I mean.
MY: That's correct. That's a good point.
KK: There's positive uses of a lot of things. So you, so you don't think
this is a bad thing.
MY: I think there can be negative things that hackers can do. I think there
can be positive things. I think you have decide, ah, what you plan on
doing with your skills, and just like any skilled person, whether its
someone's who interested in electronics or chemical engineering or
whatever it is, you use your skill for negative or dishonest or criminal...
KK: But what do you get, what do you gain from getting into...
MY: You gain...I'm glad you're asking me that finally. Ummm...
KK: Finally? We've only been on the air a couple minutes. <laughter>
MY: You gain...You gain knowledge.
KK: You gain knowledge.
MY: There's a great amount of learning.
KK: What about reading an encyclopedia? I mean...
MR: Oh yeah!
KK: Reading a book?
MY: We do that too. Library...
MR: That's our...
MY: That's a hacker's heaven.
MR: That's our main resource. That's where we originally started at.
KK: Ok. If, you know, if you're out there listening and you have an opinion
about hackers or maybe you're a hacker, we loved to hear from you. I got
one line open. 258-5394. 258-KFYI. And especially if, you know, you have
an opinion about hackers, if you think its wrong, or, err, or maybe that
something has happened to you, or somebody has gotten into your computer
and has done something that you don't think is ok, well, I want to hear
from you. 258-5394. 258-KFYI. And so, you know, so you consider this a
knowledge bank. I mean, you know, I guess I'm kinda sitting here saying
I use a computer all the time. Ok.
MR: Uhuh.
MY: Uhuh.
KK: When you guys sat down, you said, gosh, you know, we're surprised to
see a woman.
MR: <laughs>
KK: Ok, you expected some... What did you expect?
MR: Well, most woman aren't really interested in, ah, computers.
KK: Ok.
MR: There's nothing wrong with that. Ok, I mean, nothing wrong with women
using computers. But its a shame that not a lot of them take advantage
of it.
KK: Yeah, I mean computers are really cool. I mean they really are.
MR: Yeah.
KK: There's a lot of stuff you can do with them, and they are really just
wonderful. So tell me about the library.
MR: Ah, like we mentioned before, the library is our best resource. That's
where we originally started at.
MY: A plethora of information at the library.
KK: Ok, Give some examples.
MY: There are books at the library explaining how phone switching systems
work - telephony, computer science, programming manuals.
KK: Ok, so this isn't just dialing into, ah, lets just say, the phone system
computer.
MY: Uhuh.
KK: This isn't just dialing in.
MY: Right.
KK: Now we gotta do some research before we can get in.
MY: Right. In fact, I've said in the past that if someone made real movie
about what hackers do it would be the most boring movie ever made.
MR: Yeah.
KK: Ok. I mean. I mean. Do guys have like a...I'm sorry I'm going to ask you
this. But, do you have a life? I mean, you're married, you got some kids.
I mean don't ya, I mean isn't there a better use of your time? I mean...
MY: Well, do you have a life if you are doing what you want to do with your
life?
KK: Ok. Alright, I don't what to say other than I think I could find a better
use for my time. Lets go right to the phones. Lets go to John in Phoenix.
John, you're on 910 KFYI.
--: <dead air>
KK: Hello John?
--: Yes!
KK: You're on the air John.
--: Oh. Ok.
KK: Welcome to the show.
--: Thank you very much. Ah, concerning, ah, I was listening to the
conversation when you first came on discussing with that gentleman,
ah, concerning hacking.
KK: Mind Rape and Mercury are their names. Yes.
--: Ok
KK: Mind Rape.
--: Ok. I went to school and took quite a bit on computer courses for
programming and operation. And, ah, in hacking, I've found, that that's
one of the more...there's a lot of education involved in that. You getting
into...its just like getting into a new library. You go into another
system...
KK: Now John...
--: A lot of people that hack aren't in there to cause damage. Just to see and
look.
KK: John, have you hacked around? Have you done it?
--: I have hacked before.
KK: Ok. And why did you do it?
--: Just to see if it could be done. Just to take a look. Just like seeing an
interesting book, you pick it up and you start reading it.
KK: Ok. So its really just something that you feel that, ah, its a challenge
for ya. Its something that you'd just like to try. Kinda like trying to
ride a motorcycle. I mean, I'd like to try a lot of things. I'd like to
try and paint, I mean. So you think that trying to get into somebodies
computer is, is a worthwhile venture?
--: It is to a certain degree as long as the ethics involved in it...as long
as their is no mischief involved, any damage. I've hacked into IBM systems
before. And, ah, that's how I learned how full network systems run. I got
my first job...
KK: You know, John, you could read a book on networking and learn.
--: There's reading a book and doing it are two different things. Like reading
a book on how to drive a car does not teach you how to drive a car.
KK: You know, John, I appreciate you calling in and sharing your success story
with hacking, but I still gotta stand by that, you know, there's a privacy
thing here. You know, Merc you're wearing shirt that says "I Love The Feds".
MY: That's sarcasm.
KK: <laughs>
MY: One thing that the caller said is people's system. Now that kind of leaves
a feeling of individuality. Umm...its true, when you hacking into someone's
system you're not looking at someone's face. Or, or ah, you're connecting
to a system of an unknown individual, which is in a lot of cases. So I'd
like to start off by saying I'm not interested in hacking someone's
personal long distance phone codes. Or I'm not interested in stealing
service from the phone company. And I'd even like to state there are legal
ways to call long distance for free. Just to make a point, believe it or
not, its true.
KK: Ok. It's legal?
MY: Right. There are legal ways to call long distance for free.
KK: Well,I don't think we need to go through that here, now.
??: <laughs>
KK: Merc, I have to ask you why is the Attorney General knocking on your door?
MY: Oh. Oh, that was a long time ago.
KK: Ok.
MY: Well, we were stumbling...stumbled across a system that...well, we didn't
know who owned it. It ended up being owned by the State Department of
Revenue.
KK: <laughs>
MY: And they're a little touchy about accessing their systems. And, ah, its a
shame that it had such poor security.
MR: Yeah. Imagine if someone else got into it.
MY: That wasn't...that didn't have the ethics that we have.
KK: See, I don't...see I don't...you know, its a shame. You know, its
a...there's a lot of things that there's a shame out of.
??: Uhuh. <probably MY>
KK: I mean, it's a shame if I'm walking down the street somewhere and I get
mugged because I wasn't looking around. Ok?
??: Uhuh. <probably MY>
KK: I don't know if I...I guess, I'm taking a real hard stance on this because
I think that what you're doing is, you're, ah, I mean technology is so
great, that, and its so powerful that what your doing is showing the bad
side of technology, and that's not good.
MY: What, what...
KK: I mean, you know...I mean, you know, you're outlaws.
MY: What, what bad things have happened by ethical hackers? Not a lot of,
not a lot of bad things.
MR: Actually good things have happened.
MY: There have been a lot of good things. Would you rather that it, that if you
were a student at a university, would you rather your system was secured by
someone who used to be a hacker and understood the security holes and flaws,
or would rather your system was secured by someone who just graduated, just
got out of school, was green behind the thumbs, so to speak?
KK: Well I don't know if the universities will actually do that. There's, you
know, there's several programs on the market. We've got one line open. If
you want to join in, 258-5394. 258-KFYI. Just because we're talking about
hackers doesn't mean you have to. All you gotta do is pick up the phone
and give us a call. Let's go to Scott in Tempe. Scott, you're on 910 KFYI.
<Scott was having a problem with his new modem. I edited out his waste of time>
<as well as the commercial break that immediately followed this call. >
<This ends the segment one, the first half hour of the program. >
kfyi-593.pt2 000666 000000 000000 00000063210 05401755474 011154 0 ustar 00 000000 000000 KFYI Phoenix, 910 AM
Kim Kommando Show 5-22-93
Segment Two
Cast of Speakers:
KK: Kim Kommando
MR: Mind Rape
MY: Mercury
B : Bruce
--: Any caller
A : Announcer
Intro music 1: Each time I see a little girl, of 5 or 6 or 7, I can't resist
a joyous urge, to smile and say, thank heaven for little girls...
Intro music 2: Eric Clapton
KK: And thank heaven for those little girls. Cause when those little girls
grow up they do computer shows. What do you think? I'm Kim Kommando.
We're talking about hacking. We're answering all those computer questions
here today. We got one line open. 258-5394. 258-KFYI. Let's go to Bob in
Tempe. Your on 910 KFYI, Bob. <Zaphod>
--: Hi. How are you?
KK: Great.
--: I was wondering, ummm, they keep talking about this hacker ethic and
I was kinda wondering what that was.
KK: Sounds like an oxymoron, doesn't it, Bob?
--: Well, not really. I mean, you can have lots of ethics I suppose you know,
say ah, there can be a difference I guess between destroying things and ah
just wanting to see what's going on, curiosity.
KK: Ok, well, you...you guys answer that question.
MY: I'd like to answer that. First of all, we're not the ones that invented
the term Hacker's Ethic. In fact, that's an old, ah, term. That's been
around since...
MR: Since the 60's.
MY: Since the 60's...since it originated at MIT. Ummm, if you would like to
explore of the philosophy of the Hacker's Ethic ah, I would say read a
book called "Hacker's" by Steven Levy. That's...
KK: Which brings up, which brings up a good point. Ok? And ah, and, Bob, I'm
gonna ask ya...you know, your welcome, your still on the air so you can
join in. Ok?
--: Ok.
KK: Ah, what about going to school?
MR: Well, I have attended school.
KK: What about...I mean, you know, certainly there's a lot of knowledge you
can gain by going to school.
MR: Well one of the problems is I did attend ASU for awhile. And, umm, and
the classes were extremely baby-fied.
KK: Did you graduate?
MR: Phht...no...
KK: No. Ok.
MR: I...The teachers were idiotic. They treat you like you know nothing. Which
is understandable, ok? But I even tried to get into higher end courses
that they require like master degrees and stuff.
KK: Ok.
MR: And no. You have to take these courses. And I'm trying to tell them, I
know so, I know so much and I'm even willing to test out of these courses.
They stilled refused. So I tried.
MY: I can second that. I've called up ASU in the past and asked to take some
advanced classes. Classes in which I probably could have taught their
instructors a thing or two about. And they insisted that I complete their
MBA program before I go on to that class.
KK: Yeah, you know, but that's, that's a ah, that's a sign of youth.
??: Well...
KK: And I'm not that much older than you guys sitting here
MR: Uhuh.
KK: You look like you're in their twenties. I'm in my twenties.
MY: I would like to state I do have a degree in computer science. An
associates degree. But I didn't continue on to get the masters or the
bachelors.
KK: Ok. Ah, because, I, I have a bachelors in computers.
MR: Uhuh.
KK: I mean, I went through ASU. And, you know, there's a point in out lives
when we think we know everything.
MR: No. We don't. That's why we wanted to go to school. Because we wanted to
learn more. But as it turns out their sitting there telling me how to
format a disk, ok, when I already knew how to do, done this since I was 9
years old.
KK: Ok, well, I can't believe that. You know, what about DeVry? What about
another school? I mean, certainly there are others ways...
MR: Its not just the school itself, its the teachers also.
MY: I guess the point we are trying to make is we've learned more on our own...
MR: Yeah.
MY: ...than we ever could have done going to a school.
KK: Now you're telling me that nothing...that you've never done anything bad,
quote unquote. You've never, you've never used the computer, or the
hacker...
MY: To steal I'd say...
KK: To steal.
MY: Right.
KK: Ok. Have you disrupted somebody's files to make them look a little crazy.
Ah, just, just fooling around....I mean you weren't doing anything
malicious.
MR: Umm...no one is perfect. No one's perfect
MY: I've done that to other hackers to just play jokes and stuff though.
KK: But you know sometimes...
MY: But not to students to confuse them.
KK: You could have gotten into the Bell system, the phone company system.
MR: Uhuh.
MY: Could have.
KK: And ah, and maybe disrupted some of their files.
MY: Eh...Right...
KK: You know, and we're talking about a billion dollar a year company.
MY: I guess the mentality behind that is, is you could go out and buy a gun
to shoot someone but you don't because you have ah, ethics or I suppose
you have a conscience and...so we all have the free agency, the capacity
to do anything be we choose not to because of free will.
KK: Ok. Ok, well, there's another term associated with hackers called
cyberpunks.
MR: No.
MY: No, we hate that term.
MR: No. No, I am not a cyberpunk
MY: It's new age. It's trendy. It's...
MR: It's a fashion statement that's what it is.
KK: Ok, well, a pocket protector is a fashion statement too, but, I mean...
MR: Well, we don't seem to be looking like we're wearing one <laughs>
KK: No, no pocket protectors there. Let's go to...Let's go to Mike in Phoenix.
You're on 910 KFYI, Mike.
--: Yeah, just some general questions for these hackers. Ummm, found this kinda
of interesting. I've been messing around with computers now for maybe about
3 years. Been messing around mainly with Autocad. In other cases I get on
my modem and I horse around...just for the ah, bulletin boards services.
I've always been curious...how do they gain access. Can they give me some
ah...
KK: So you want, so you want tips!
--: I'm just curious how they do it.
KK: You want hacker tips.
MY: Maybe he wants to know ways to keep it from happening to him.
--: That's very possible.
MY: Nothing wrong with knowing that.
--: No I'm just curious...
KK: Well it works both ways.
--: ...how do they around codes. How do they get access to the numbers.
KK: That's an interesting question. How do you do it?
MY: Different...different ways. It depends...
KK: Give me an example. Tell me how...
MY: If he's attached a major network, say the Internet or ah, Sprintnet say,
then there's already ways to connect to a system without going through a
login. There's mail ports, there's finger ports. Ummm...I'm primarily
someone who's interested in networks. For someone...
KK: You like networks.
MY: I love networks.
KK: Are they easier?
MR: No.
MY: Easier to hack? No. Because there are so many predecessors before us that
they are more secure. But there are more ways...more different ways to
connect to them.
MR: You can literally go around the world.
KK: Ok. Explain that. Go around the world.
MR: For example, you can literally go around the world. All the way to Taiwan.
Right out of...
MY: I maintain...its not really amazing, its nothing...its no major
accomplishment that we made. Its the people who, who run the networks
that really are the, ah, the great people as far as that accomplishment
goes. But, anyone who has, who has any experience working on the Internet
knows that all you have to do is specify an Internet address and you can
immediately connect to any host, connect to any domain.
KK: Ok, and bypass any, ah, you know with Internet there are no real charges.
But what about, like a online service like Compuserve?
MY: Ummm...Well I think...Well this is my opinion, I'm not gonna...I don't
want to hurt anyone here, but I think Compuserve...its just a blatant
ripoff.
MR: Its basically a joke. That's what it really is.
MY: There's...its a self contained system they have mail gateways on it to
the Internet. But what can you get on there that you...
KK: But there's, But there's a lot...
MY: ...can't get for free.
KK: Well, yeah. But there's, But there's a lot on there that you can get.
Ok. Cause I use Compuserve all the time. But before we get into it...Mike,
do you...do you think its ok to hack?
--: Do I think its ok to hack?
KK: Yeah.
--: It depends what you're getting on to.
KK: Ok.
--: Ummm....I'm sure there lots of stuff you can get onto where you can't
create damage if you just do it for entertainment.
KK: Ok.
--: Then that would be ok. I think if maybe you get onto something, for
example, umm, a police service of some sort you could cause some damage
and, ah, hurt other people unknowingly. Ummm...<garbled - she talks over
him>
KK: But, but, you know, but the bottom line is if you think you're just...you
think that if you're at home, ok, you got a computer and a phone line.
And, ah, you know, its a little slow around the household, you got...
you're bored. And you're curious to see if you could do it. You think
its ok to go into somebody else's computer and take a look. Its kinda,
you know, cause sometimes computers are like your homes. I mean, there's
so much personal information on a computer.
--: I know a little about hacking. Although I haven't really gotten into it.
I know enough if you really want these boys out, there are ways to keep
them out.
MY: That's true. I would....I would say that most of systems that get hacked
are systems that where the administrator never cared.
--: Yeah.
MY: And didn't take the time, the small amount of time it would have taken to
secure the system.
--: But tell me about the networking. How do you get ummm. <laughs> How do you
find the numbers for these things. How do you get access to these things?
MY: There are public Internet dialups.
--: Really?
MY: For instance, there's a new place in the valley that just ah, free public
Internet access. And I guess I can't say that because you can't name names
on the air, so I won't. But, ummm, you can access the Internet if, if you
are at a major university
KK: Ok.
MY: So...
KK: So, I mean, so if you know if you have access to Internet you're telling
me that I can go...
MY: Or government or military sites that are all connected to the Internet too.
KK: Ok. And so and its not very difficult to get in there.
MY: Oh, I wouldn't say that. But I'd, I'd say there are times when you find
systems that aren't secure. And...
KK: How long does it take you to get into one? On the average?
MR: It depends on the security of the system...
KK: Let's say just the average...
MY: On the average, how many times in a day, could I hack into...how many
sites could I hack into in a day, would ya say?
KK: Yeah.
MY: At the most, I would say four sites on the Internet.
KK: 4 sites in an 8 hour day?
MY: Ahh...well, maybe I didn't spend 8 hours doing it constant...I mean,
sometimes I'm not sitting there doing it, maybe I have a program doing
it for me.
KK: Oh, so, so you can write programs. Well, I want to know about that. <laughs>
This is interesting. I, I...this is interesting. We got...Mike, thanks for
the call. We've got one line open. If you want to join in, 258-3954.
258-KFYI. I'm Kim Kommando on 910 KFYI.
<commercial break>
Intro Music: ACDC
KK: We're back answering all those computer questions here on 910 KFYI.
Let's go right back to the phones. Let's go to Sharon in Phoenix.
You're on 910 KFYI, Sharon.
--: Hi.
KK: Hi.
--: Ah, I didn't know your boys were gonna be on and I got a DOS question and a
comment.
KK: Oh no, that's cool. We'll take it. But no, let's hear your comment.
MY: Maybe we can answer it I don't know.
--: Yes.
KK: Hey, well, you know, give me a break here! You know, I do this every week
without ya. Ok, I mean... <laughs>
MY: Ok, I'm not trying to take your job, go ahead. <laughs>
MR: We want her job, man. <laughs>
--: Tell your boys to cool it.
KK: Cool it over there. Listen to Sharon.
--: <laughs> I think that what they're doing is akin to being in a
neighborhood, you know, that they're familiar with and looking in the
living room window or dining room window providing they don't...
KK: So they're peepers!
--: Right. Now if they open the files and actually read them, then they are
looking in the bedroom window and then it changes a little bit.
??: <laughs>
KK: You know what, I gotta tell ya, the guys are getting excited here. You
say bedroom window and they're get excited.
--: Right. Exactly.
KK: You know, that's a good point Sharon.
--: Now what they're doing, if they tell somebody that there was something
terribly illegal going on in that living room and that it should be fixed,
I'd say harmless fun, and thank you, you know, for letting us know. If
they let the security people know. On the other hand, if they keep going
in and keep looking then it isn't harmless fun anymore, then its invasion
of privacy
KK: I, I agree with you Sharon. I think it is an invasion of privacy.
--: But on the other hand, kids will be kids and, you know when I grew up, they
used to tip over the outhouse and they used to dump things. And...you know
what I'm saying.
KK: Yeah. Yeah, you're right.
--: I don't mind, I really don't mind them doing it. And I certainly don't
want to see them go to jail for 20 years because they looked.
KK: But if, but if they look inside, and...
--: If they reach in through the screen and take anything...
KK: They should be put away.
--: Put them away.
MY: I...
KK: Put them away.
MY: I have a statement to say about that.
KK: Go ahead, Merc.
MY: I mean, I understand the angle she's trying to take with this. And I agree
when you're young, you do things, childish things, like tip over outhouses
though I never have had the privledge myself. But all that...
KK: Get to the point, Merc. Come on.
MY: We take hacking very seriously, its not a childish type of thing. We have
reasons for what we do, and we also have things that motivate us, and,
umm...
KK: We're...We're going to talk about those motivations. But let's here that
DOS question first, Sharon.
<editted out Sharon's DOS 6.0 - the usual upgrade problems>
KK: ... And I appreciate you calling in, because you know what, Sharon, you
brought up a great point, that, it is like you're looking in someone's
home ok, when you're hacking, ok because, you know, you're looking inside
computers. Now, you know, Mind Rape. Nice name. <laughs> Bye the way...
nice name...
MR: Its nothing sexual.
KK: Well, Mind...Rape...you know, I mean, you have to come up with a better one.
But anyway, you look like a nice guy. What are you running around with a
name called Mind Rape for? I mean, its ah...
MR: Well, basically, it ah umm...phttt...it can be taken several ways. One, it
describes who I am and how I see things. So basically my mind itself has
been raped.
KK: Now you consider yourself ethical?
MR: Pardon me?
KK: You consider...err...both you guys. You think you're ethical.
MY: We like to be. We like to be considered ethical. Yes.
MR: Yes.
MY: We believe we have ethics.
KK: Ok, now, now do you know what the definition of ethics is? I mean, can
you...can you tell me what the definition of ethics is right now?
MY: I didn't look at it in Webster before I came, so I probably couldn't give
you his version of it. But ours is maintaining our own level of, of
professionality in what we do and not...we're not out to hurt or...
MR: Profit...
MY: ...profit...we're not in it for profit and...
KK: We're going to talk about what the definition of ethics is, when we come
back. I'm Kim Kommando of 910 KFYI.
<commercial break>
Intro Music: Van Halen
KK: We're back answering all those computer questions. We're talking about the
ethics of computing. The ethics of hacking not computing. We're here with
Mind Rape and Mercury, or short for, Merc. And we're talking about what's
all happening and how they are able to get inside the computers. And
before we went to that break, I asked you the definition of ethics. Ok,
Merc? And you, you told me during the break that you wanted to work on it,
you know, that, that you didn't give the right definition. Ok, so you tell
me what it is.
MY: <muffled> again...again...<clear> Something wrong with the microphone.
<laughs>
KK: I know, go ahead shoot. Your on now.
MY: Short in it. Again, I'm not...I'm not...
KK: High tech place...I'm not the person who invented the term Hacker's Ethic
But I know what it means as far as what I do and what I shouldn't do. And
things that I shouldn't do is...well, ah...for any reason, for reasons of
revenge or what don't destroy systems. Don't get involved for personal gain.
Just be in it for the learning experience.
KK: Ok, for the experience. That's, that's what ethics means to Merc. Ok, lets
go to ah, lets go to Bob in Scottsdale. Err...lets go to Gail in Phoenix
Your on 910 KFYI, Gail.
??: Hi Gail.
KK: Gail?
--: Yes.
KK: You're on the air.
--: I'd like to ask Mind Rape, given his view of ethics, what ah, he was
prosecuted for and what was the outcome of his case.
KK: Good question, Gail. Go ahead.
MR: Is your name by any chance Gail Thackeray?
KK: Now we don't give out last names here, its not important. Let's, let's go
ahead Mind Rape. You're blushing a little bit. Why are you doing that?
MR: Well, I have been busted before.
KK: Ok.
MR: I have been prosecuted for telephone abuse.
KK: Telephone Abuse. Gail?
--: Isn't that theft?
KK: Yes. That's theft. Ok, now you got prosecuted for that. But you, you've
been telling me, here, for the last forty minutes that you don't do
anything wrong. That, that, you know...
MR: No, that was. That right there...
KK: Yeah but...
MR: It takes, sometimes it does take a bust to really show me what's...what
isn't right.
KK: But Mind Rape, for the last forty minutes, you, or so, you've been on the
air. You've sat here and said, Kim... And you've said it to us, the
listeners, ok, I do it for the experience. I do it because I want to learn.
Because I tried to go to ASU and I couldn't learn, you know, I couldn't
learn a damn thing. I didn't know anything...I couldn't learn anything
because I already knew how to format a hard disk. But now, but now you're
telling me...now...now... You lied to us...
MR: No. No. I, as I mentioned before, no one's perfect either. I mentioned that
at the very beginning of the show. No...not...
KK: Ok, well tell us why you got prosecuted.
MR: Ah, I was basically doing telephone fraud, which is abusing long distance
service. Making free phone calls.
--: Free to whom? Someone paid your bill.
KK: Yeah. Us the consumers paid your bill eventually. I paid your bill Mind
Rape. Who'd you call?
MR: <laughs>
KK: How come I didn't get the benefit of the phone call?
MR: Well see, I don't have the resources to learn. Ok. I would go to ASU, I
would go to Devry. But one of the things is, I don't have the money. ok...
And if there was...
KK: Oh my...get out of here...
MR: No seriously, if there were teachers and stuff out there, that willing to
work with me, in such a way...
KK: No, I want to know why you were prosecuted now.
MR: Why I got prosecuted? For abusing telephone service and stuff.
KK: Ok, so how did you get nailed. ANd what happened to you? Did you go to jail?
Did you get a fine?
MR: No, I'm, ah, currently serving probation.
KK: Ok.
MR: Which is, you know, decent of them to allow me to do, to do that.
KK: Gail, you got a comment?
--: Yes. If he had a burning desire to learn about high performance race cars,
no one would forgive him for stealing them and joyriding in them and taking
them away from their owners. But he feels that he has a right to do the
same thing with computers.
MR: No, the telephone abuse, I would have to say, it was wrong. Ok. That was
my mistake.
--: What about exploring other people's computers without their permission or
knowledge? And not caring about what happens to the computer while your
exploring?
MY: Well, again, your using the word people's. I mean, we're not interested
in individual's systems.
KK: What they're saying, Gail, what they've been saying here, is...
MY: What about a government system that maintains list of information on
private citizens?
KK: Gail. But Gail, Gail, they're denying going into people's computers. Ok?
Alright, They're saying they only go into companies so its ok.
--: Well...
KK: Now, I don't, I don't agree with them. I agree with you. I think your 100%
right.
MR: We're not out there to steal information. Ok? We're out there to further
what we know. And some of the tactics, some of the tactics we have done...
--: You're out there to explore what interests you. And you don't care system
it is that you're on. And you don't care what happens to the system that
you are exploring. Because, when you explore it, you cause unforeseen
problems. And you're there to explore whether that happens or not. And you
don't really care, do ya?
MR: Would you rather have me hack into a government site, or some KGB agent
hack into a government site?
--: I'd rather that nobody hacked into it. But I can't accept...
MR: But it happens...it happens...
--: ...the KGB's desire to do it as an excuse for your willingness
to cause harm.
MR: Ehem...
MY: Back to the ethics thing, though, I...
KK: No. We're gonna, we're gonna talk about the ethics thing...
MY: I would like to say though, as far as breaking into systems, that
every time...
KK: Merc, I gotta put you...
MY: Go ahead.
KK: We're going to talk about the ethics thing. Because, you know...and I'm
gonna read you the definition of ethics, ok? And I'm gonna tell ya what
ethics is. Or what Webster's says ethics is. And what I think as a moral
person, with a value system, that pays taxes, that abides by the law,
what we think about ethics. What's important to us. I'm Kim Kommando here
on 910 KFYI.
<commercial break>
Intro Music: George Thorogood
KK: And we're back answering all those computer questions. We're talking about
hackers. We've got one line open. 258-5394. 258-KFYI. And I'm gonna read
you, Mind Rape, Merc. I'm gonna read you what Webster's here...I'm gonna
look it up, Webster's Encyclopedic Unabridged Dictionary. Its a big, a big
red book. What they say ethics is. Ethics is a noun. The body of moral
principles governing a group, a complex of moral held rules of conduct
followed by an individual or group and if you're ethical, ok, is that if
you're upholding these rules, the standards of a profession. And I beg to
argue with you. Now, I've programmed. I, I have a degree in programming.
I've had to program for Fortune companies in my life. I mean, you know,
I...now this is all...me being on radio just didn't happen overnight I've
worked for IBM. I've worked for ATT. I've worked for Unisys. In different
capacities. Now, I know that there's standards for computing.
MY: Uhuh.
KK: There are various bodies of conduct. Anything from where to put the pick
statements in a Cobol program, alright?
MY: Right.
KK: To ah...
MY: I'm a Cobol programmer, I know what you're talking about.
KK: Yeah, and They're a pain, right? Those pick statements...I hate em.
MY: Heh...
MR: I hate Cobol.
MY: I guess the, ah, the keyword in that was a group, followed by a group. I
guess we could safely say that our ethics, obviously, ah...I'm not gonna...
When I say ours, I don't mean MR's and mine, I mean the ethics of the whole
hacker community, and its not a small community either. We're talking
about thousands of people. I wouldn't say millions.
KK: Ok, but...but do you think its ok if, if a group of people... Do you think
its ethical for a group of people to look inside my bedroom window?
MR: That's a different situation actually.
KK: Why...
MR: That is your bedroom window. That is your house.
KK: Ok, but my, but my computer
MY: I don't know. It depends... Are you changing your clothes with the window
open?
KK: Oh, So if I have the window open, its ok.
MR: <laughs>
MY: I mean, Well, don't blame me if I drive by and if I look and see you
standing there. Its the same thing, if people leave their systems wide open.
Ah...and I'm not saying blame them. I'm saying there, ah, that we provide
a service, and its agreed, its not a service that a lot of people like to...
KK: You're unethical. You're unethical.
MY: In your terms of ethics, yes. I'm not.
KK: Ok, then say it. In my terms...
MY: In your terms I am not ethical.
KK: You are not ethical.
MY: Right. Because you obviously follow a different set of ethics than I...
KK: I, I follow what the dictionary says. And I say what the world...
MY: No, the dictionary said group, and your group and my group are not the
same group.
KK: Alrightie... Well we're gonna, we're gonna, you guys hang...you guys are
gonna hang around for a couple more minutes. And, ah, the Hell's Angels
aren't very ethical sometimes either, but anyway, I'm Kim Kommando here
on...
MY: Great bunch of guys though...
MR: <laughs>
KK: ...910 KFYI. And ah, Daryl, Tom, Steve you hang on the line. we're gonna
be getting to your phone calls after the, ah, news, here, at the top of
the hour.
Exit Music...
<commercial break and news at the top of the hour>
<This is the end of segment two.>
kfyi-593.pt3 000666 000000 000000 00000052725 05402640340 011150 0 ustar 00 000000 000000 KFYI Phoenix, 910 AM
Kim Kommando Show 5-22-93
Segment Three
Cast of Speakers:
KK: Kim Kommando
MR: Mind Rape
MY: Mercury
B : Bruce
--: Any caller
A : Announcer
Intro Music...
A : And now another hour of Arizona's most exciting news/talk radio
continues as KFYI shows you how to take command of your computer.
Now here's KFYI's PC expert and syndicated columnist Kim Kommando.
KK: We're talking about ethical computing. We're talking about whether or not
ethics, ah, can exist in hacking. I don't believe so. Ah, but we have two
gentlemen here in our studio, ah, Mind Rape is his name. And also Merc.
And, ah, we've been talking about hacking and before we go back to our
conversation, let's go to Steve in Phoenix. Your on 910 KFYI, Steve.
<edited of Steve's Windows/Parity problem>
KK: Alrightie. We appreciate you calling in. If you want to join in the
conversation, we got one line open. 258-5394. 258-KFYI. And just because
we're talking about hacking, doesn't mean you have to. I'll answer any
computer question. Maybe you're out there shopping, you don't know what to
buy. Well, here's the place folks. You don't need to get ripped off. All
you gotta do pick up the phone. 258-5394. 258-KFYI. And, and ah, you know,
before we went to the news, Merc, here agreed that, that ah, he was
unethical in my definition, which is the Webster's dictionary definition.
But let me ask you what about...what's the, what's the, what's the deal
with the, ah, the UFO's? Tell me, tell me Mind Rape, what's the deal?
MR: Actually Mercury is more up to date on, ah, UFO's. That particular part...
MY: Ummm...this comes third hand. It's really...sketchy.
KK: Now you haven't done this?
MY: This is...ah, not me personally. This is common knowledge, though, that has
been on the TV. And it was done by LOD. It is something that happened with
LOD.
KK: What's LOD?
MY: Legion of Doom. Its a hacking...
KK: Legion of Doom.
MY: ...hacking group that mostly comes out of Austin, Texas.
KK: Ok.
MY: Most widely publicized hacking group probably...
KK: Tell me what the Legion of Doom...you guys have great names. I mean, I
thought Kim Kommando was pretty good. Ok. But ah, you know...<laughs>
MY: Its all for show really.
KK: Ok, ah, mine's legit though. I was born with this thing
MY: Ok.
KK: Tell me about the Legion of Doom
MY: Well, this is two people in the Legion of Doom. Or two hackers in the
Legion of Doom. Eric Bloodaxe and Scott Chasin. And, bye the way, Scott
Chasin is his handle and its not a real name. <laughs>
KK: Ok.
MY: Ummm, but they had, ah, a segment on channel 10. A dateline about, oh, two,
three, four months ago.
KK: Ok, tell me what happened. What's the point? Alright.
MY: Well on TV they showed some, ah, screens of someone connecting to the
nic.ddn which is the Network Information Center for the Data Defense
Network. And they showed, ah, some printouts of, ah, the sites that they
had found on there. And the printouts that they had hacked...they had
hacked into some of these sites. And some of the printouts read inventory
on file referring to UFO inventory parts and also, ah, autopsies on report,
or something like that.
KK: Ok, so, ok so the bottom line is though, that this Legion of Doom went in
there and they found information on UFO's that maybe the government doesn't
want to share.
MY: I wouldn't, I wouldn't speculate myself. I guess the main reason that the
whole thing came out into the open was because, ah, the White House made
an official request to the Legion... I don't know if it was Legion of Doom
or to their representatives for the information.
KK: Alrightie. Let's go to Tom in Glendale. You're on 910 KFYI, Tom.
--: Hi.
KK: Hi.
--: Ummm, I want to touch back first on what you were saying about education.
??: <garbled>
KK: Ok.
--: I have known, ah, Mercury for a number of years.
KK: Ok.
--: As a matter of fact I got my associates degree the same time he did.
KK: Are you a hacker Tom?
--: No, I'm not.
KK: Ok.
--: First thing I would like to say is I would, ah, immediately recognize that
he has, ah, vastly more knowledge than I do.
KK: Ok.
--: And I went on after him and got a bachelor's degree, ah, through, ah,
Devry's bachelor degree program.
KK: Ok. Well, he's got more experience in what?
--: He's got more basic computing knowledge.
KK: Ok.
--: Ummm...
KK: Well, you know, its kinda like...Tom let me give you an example. Ok?
It's kinda like you were to read an, ah, automobile repair manual, right?
--: Uhuh.
KK: Versus puttin' grease on your hands. Ok? Now, who is gonna be better at
fixing the car? Alright? The guy that's got the grease or the gal that's
got the grease under her fingernails.
--: With computers and computer programming and such it doesn't work that way.
KK: Well, I, I tend to ah...you know what? I don't agree with you Tom.
--: <garbled>...computer programming classes are great for teaching you the
basics.
KK: Yeah, but that's my point, is that, is that you can learn the basics from
the classes. But as far as actually getting in there. Now, I can read a
book on programming. I have done this in my life. I can read a book on
programming and until I actually get in there and start making the loops,
the goto's, and all the other good...you know, all the other stuff. Its
ah...you can get messed up. You know what I mean?
--: Yeah. But the problem with the computer education system is the classes
that are readily accessible...
KK: Well they don't teach...
--: Anybody, even myself with a bachelors degree will teach you enough about
any programming language to get you in...basically enough to get you into
trouble.
KK: Ok, so but you think its...
--: And by learning on your own...I've taught myself more about languages I
didn't take in school than I learned about the languages I took in school.
KK: Well, what about writing a software program?
--: I've been working on one for the past three years.
KK: Ok, what about, ah, you know, ah, taking some classes on, ah, object
oriented databases. You know, and actually sitting there and doing
something like that. You're gonna... You know there are better ways to
learn, Tom. You know, there are better ways than fooling around and trying
to get into Bell system computer then and getting nailed for it for
telephone abuse. You know, I mean...
--: You're talking two different areas there! You know...
MY: Actually no...ah, if you did break into the Bell System Laboratories
perhaps you would find source code
you could
study that source code
and further your knowledge
of, of whatever that source code is. Whether it's a
SQL database or...
KK: You could break into my house and steal my journal and learn a lot about me.
MY: Probably be pretty interesting too.
MR: <laughs>
KK: Nah...its pretty boring let me tell ya. Anyway Tom, go ahead.
--: Something that's not being said here, is, you know, people are blending
definitions together...<censored by station>
KK: Watch you language sir.
--: I'm sorry. Ummm...Phreakers.
KK: Ok.
--: Ok. Then you've got hackers...they...most hackers you would never even know
they were there.
KK: Alrightie...well, you know, and...and most hackers...and that's the point.
Because they're going in, and if hacking was ok, you, you'd know they were
there. You would...you would have easy access to these computers. You
wouldn't have to sit there for eight hours.
MY: Actually, you can, you can phreak and, and ah, not break the law. Phreaking
only means that you're interested in telephone technology.
MR: That's the true definition of phreaking...is to study the telephone system,
not actually abusing codes and such.
MY: If your only goal is to obtain a free phone call, then you haven't gone
very far.
KK: Well, you know what, I guess my, my...
MY: I pay for my long distance.
KK: Well, that's good.
MY: Even if I'm at a pay phone.
KK: And I'm sure Mind Rape now you do. Don't ya?
MR: Oh yeah. <laughs>
KK: He sends that little bill to AT&T every month. Now, let's go to Daryl in
Sun City. Daryl your on 910 KFYI.
<edited out Daryl's DOS 6 questions>
--: Ok, then, about the hackers, then.
KK: Ok.
--: Ok guys. Umm...here's, here's what...I think that there's...because I'm,
I'm... Ok, I'm an ASU student. I'm a CIS major...
??: Ok.
--: ...but I'm in, I'm in lower division so I'm not in the major yet.
KK: Ok.
--: Now, now I'm actually taking classes, but you guys could just go...
Why didn't...why didn't you guys just go to ASU? You guys spend a lot...
You guys pay for your long distance, so you guys do spend money. Why not
spend that and go part time and just take a stupid class show that you
could get an Internet account?
KK: That's good, Daryl...
MR: Because I, I...
--: And then, and then you can get the Internet account and then you can mess
with it legally and you can get a lot of experience out there. A lot of
people will let you into their systems and, and that.
KK: But not only get into Internet...
MR: What...
KK: Wait. Wait, ok? Not only get into Internet. I mean, Daryl, I mean your,
your a CIS major, ok?
--: Right.
KK: Ok. You're learning something aren't ya?
--: Right.
KK: Alright. You're taking some business law classes. You're taking marketing.
Now, you're also taking some programming too. You're getting a well
rounded...
--: I will be, yeah.
KK: Yeah. I mean, but you're not there yet but you will, because you're in the
lower division. Now you're learning at the same time. You got the Internet.
You got a couple things going for you. You got a future ahead of ya. You
know, you're what, 18, 19 years old?
--: 19.
KK: 19 years old.
--: Almost 20.
KK: Ok. Almost 20. Its kinda like, remember when you were a kid you were
saying, I'm almost, I'm almost 16, I can drive.
--: <laughs>
KK: Ok. <laughs> But ya got a lot going for you. Now, Merc let me ask you a
question. Ok? Your...
MY: First I'd like to address his question.
KK: Well, no, let me ask you a question.
MY: Ok.
KK: Its my show. Alright? You're sitting...
MY: Ok.
MR: <laughs>
KK: <laughs> I mean, you're sitting in my studio here. Ok?
MY: Ok.
KK: Ah, now, isn't there more to life? I mean, you're 25. You want to be
sitting here when you're 35? I mean, you know, 45? 55? What about a
pension plan? I don't think you're gonna be getting a pension for laying
off the hacking.
MY: Well, that's weird. I never told you my age. You must be a hacker too.
KK: No, I'm not.
MY: <laughs>
KK: I've got tons of things to do with my time.
MY: Well, first of all, I did want to say I do have legitimate Internet account
that I pay for.
KK: Ok.
MY: Ah, second of all, again, I, I believe we have already gone over the
education bit. Umm...I would just say that, again, we can learn more on
our own by studying on our own. And, ah, I have lots of friends who are 30,
and 40, and they used to be like us and now they manage networks. Ah...
KK: So, so what they did was they went legitimate. They used...
MY: Right.
KK: ...they used the experience...
MY: I, I believe there is a graduation from hacking. I do. I believe there is
a time when get tired and bored of it and you go on and become something
even better.
KK: You become a real person. A tax paying citizen.
MY: I pay taxes.
KK: You pay taxes?
MY: I'm a software developer.
KK: Ok, well...
MY: Commercial software developer.
KK: A commercial... Do you have, ah, any, ah, winning products out there?
MY: I have, I have a product on the shelf in many, ah, many states of the U.S.
KK: Well that's, see...well that's, that's...and now...but you're moving away
from hacking. Ok. You're moving...
MY: I believe I am...
KK: Ok. You're growing up. Ok, because their is research out there, that says
you know that most hackers are, are boys in their teens. Ok. And, ah, Daryl
I appreciate your call.
MY: That's, that's not true though.
KK: That's not true. What do you think the, the...
MY: Oh man, I'm always amazed by the type of people that you find are hackers.
Old people...
MR: Uhuh.
MY: I'm serious. I know a person who is 50 years old and he hacks. 12 year old
kids. Or, ah, women. Ummm, there are women hackers, even...
KK: Well, I'm sure there are. Ok?
MY: But even sometimes people you don't like later you find out that they're
hackers. We find it amazing, even if we don't like them, we respect them
because they're a hacker.
KK: Let's go to Bob in Scottsdale. Bob, you're on 910 KFYI.
--: Ah yeah. I had a question addressed to your labeling of, ah, their ethics.
KK: Ok.
--: Ok, ummm, basically what ethics is, is it all goes on morals, right?
KK: Its ah, its morals...
--: Its based on morals, but...
KK: Its based on morals and values.
--: Yeah.
KK: And these are standards...
--: Ummm, not necessarily.
KK: ...followed, umm...nope. I, I beg to bar..., I beg to differ with you
because I read it out of Webster's. Ok, it says...
--: You can also look up morals in Webster and its also what a society defines.
KK: Ok, well lets...but we're not talking about morals, we're talking about
ethics, Bob.
--: Yeah, but morals is what ethics is devised around.
KK: Ok. No, we're about ethics here. We're not talking about morals. What
ethics says is that its the morals and values followed by a group.
--: Exactly.
KK: Ok, now Bob, do you think its alright if you're, if you're, ah, in your
bedroom and somebody takes a look in your window? Do you think that's fine?
--: If I didn't take the prevention of closing my window then, I guess, then
I'm not aware of that happening.
KK: Ok, but...ok, you're not aware of it happening, but is it right or wrong?
Is it right...
--: I mean, its...that's a easy, you know, to describe moral. But...
KK: Is it right or wrong, Bob? Is it, is it right or wrong that if somebody is
a peeper and they're standing outside your bedroom and they look inside
your window? Is that right or is that wrong?
--: Is that right or is that wrong? It depends on what society you're in.
KK: I'm asking you. I'm not asking society, I'm asking you. You're the one
that called in and said that I'm wrong on the ethics issue.
--: No, I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, I'm saying that you're
definition of it is not...
KK: I gave the...
--: ...strictly defined because that is not something that...its always gonna
have really fuzzy lines and that's what the hackers are in. Because, as
far as they can see, its, you know, its ethical as far as they go, as far
as they believe is far enough. What you're trying to pin on them is that
anybody that hacks is morally wrong. They're not doing...they're not
applying to your ethics, not theirs.
KK: I don't think their applying to society's ethics. I don't think its right...
--: Society's ethics are changing every day.
KK: ...at all. I don't think there not changing that much that it makes it ok.
--: Yeah they are, with technology changing the way it is, it changes every day.
KK: No. That does not change. Technology does not change morals and values.
Technology does not get into whether it is right or wrong to steal. It's
still wrong to steal. It's still wrong to get inside the telephone's
computer system and to steal from them. That's still wrong, its not right,
and technology has nothing to do with it, Bob. Ethics is something that,
that we're raised with. If we lose, if we lose our morals, if we lose our
values, as a society, what do we have? We got enough chaos in the world.
Ok, I mean, take a look at what's happening in Bosnia. Ok, this is a
computer show, we're gonna talk about Bosnia.
MY: Blame it on the hackers. <sigh>
KK: Would you...We're gonna blame Bosnia. Ok, we're gonna blame Bosnia.
MR: It was interesting what you mentioned about, umm, that hackers are pretty
much unethical in your opinion, but what about Bill Gates?
KK: What about Bill Gates? He's the chairman of Microsoft. Ok? I know who...
MR: He's a hacker.
KK: I know...
MR: And a hacker too.
KK: And he's a hacker?
MR: What about Mitch Kapor?
KK: Ok, well I don't know those...
MR: He's a hacker.
KK: I have no information...
MR: Author of Lotus 123.
KK: I have no information...
MR: And the gentleman that started the entire computer revolution, or actually
helped a big part in it, is Steve Jobs.
KK: Ok, yeah, and he was, he...
MR: He used to steal telephone service. He used to bluebox.
KK: Ok, Yeah. The deal with, with, ah, Steve Jobs and Wozniak. Ok, for those
of you that don't know this story, this is a true story. Its documented in
the history books. If you sign on to Prodigy, the online service, and look
at the history of computers you're gonna see the story in black and white
on your screen. Ok, what these two guys did, these are the founders of
Apple Computer. Ok? They went legitimate, but I'm gonna tell you what they
did before they went legitimate. Is a...in Captain Crunch in the mid
seventies, there was a whistle. Ok, it was a prize in the cereal box. Now,
it...there was a certain way that if you used this whistle, and you were
making a long distance phone call, you got the call for free. Alright? You
didn't have to pay. Now this was a whistle in a cereal box. This was a
whistle in a Captain Crunch box. Ok, so what these two guys do is they
figure out a way to make the whistle. Well, they make the whistle, or that
sound, using a modem, more or less. Now it gets into some technical stuff.
Ok, what they do is they start figuring out a way way to sell this. Yeah
they sold it. Alright. Was it legitimate? No. Ok. Did they get in trouble?
Yes.
MY: And they graduated on to better things.
KK: And then they went legitimate, they grew up from hacking. And they went
legitimate and they started Apple computer. And that's the deal with Steve
Jobs and Wozniak. I mean that...we're gonna go right back to the phones
when we come back. I'm Kim Kommando on 910 KFYI.
<commercial break>
Intro Music: AC DC
KK: We're back answering all those computer questions. Ending the traumas and
tribulations. And, we're talking about hacking. Which I, ah, which I'm sure
you know I don't agree with if you listened to the show. And, and ah, Merc,
you asked if you could say something. What do you want to say?
MY: Actually, you asked me to say it.
MR: <laughs>
MY: I said, well, well if your a computer, you'd be 60-babe-a-hertz. I don't
know if anyone here has met Kim before, but she's pretty fine.
KK: 60-babe-a-hertz. They, they call me the computer babe. We're gonna go to
John in Mesa. You're on 910 KFYI, John
--: Hi, Kim This is an outstanding program, I'm really enjoying it.
KK: Well, thank you.
--: Ah, you're never going to convince <laughs> your guests, and those people
who do that sort of thing. There's two things they could look at. They
don't want to look at the Ten Commandments They don't want to look at the
Preamble to the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
KK: That's a good point, John.
--: And what the governments prescribed from doing literally is the whole
concept of what our, ah, what our civil law depends on. So...
KK: That's right. Take that away what do we have? Right?
--: That's right, if you lose that...
MY: Actually liberty is taken away.
KK: Ok, what do we got? You know, if you take away the laws, if you take away
this, what do you have?
MY: How much, how much privacy has the government allowed us to have?
--: But we have an opportunity to stand up and fight the government all the
way to the Supreme Court. And no other country in the world has that...
KK: And that's...
MY: And, meantime, the people all on the bottom all get hurt.
--: <garbled>
MY: I know an individual who was posting on a bulletin board about a year ago.
I don't even know his name, so it will be easy for me not to, to infringe
anywhere here. But he was, he had gone to the department of motor vehicles.
He owned an auto store. He wanted a...the list of everyone in Arizona who
owned a Honda so he could send out a mailing list. The government, or the
department of motor vehicles, wanted to charge him three, three or four
thousand dollars to do it. And I think his business ended up, ah...
KK: That's a whole other issue, ok?
MY: But, but its a privacy issue. And that's what's he...
KK: I don't know, that gets into some...
MY: They should give it away for free or not at all.
KK: No. No. I, I... <laughs>
--: Ok, I really didn't call, call to...
KK: That's ok. You know what, John, I'm glad that, you know, that you called
in to at least say "Hey, I agree with you." Ok but, ah, and I do, I
appreciate that John.
<Edited out John's confession of FSA (Flight Simulator Addiction) and various>
<hardware questions. >
KK: And John, I appreciate you calling in tonight sir.
--: Ok, I sure thank you. Thank you for your program. Great program.
KK: Thank you John. We've got one line open if you want to join in the
conversation. 258-5394. 258-KFYI. Any computer question just pick up the
phone and dial now.
<commercial break>
<This is the end of segment three.>
kfyi-593.pt4 000666 000000 000000 00000055045 05403140622 011146 0 ustar 00 000000 000000 KFYI Phoenix, 910 AM
Kim Kommando Show 5-22-93
Segment Four
Cast of Speakers:
KK: Kim Kommando
MR: Mind Rape
MY: Mercury
B : Bruce
--: Any caller
A : Announcer
Intro Music: Joe Satriani
KK: And we're back answering all those computer questions, ending the traumas
and the tribulations here on 910 KFYI every Saturday six to eight. I'm Kim
Kommando. Let's go to Tom in Phoenix. Tom, you're on 910 KFYI.
<Edited out Tom's terrible fears and worries about DOS 6.0 traumas. >
KK: Alrightie, we appreciate your calling in. If you want to join in the
conversation, we got one line open. 258-5394. 258 KFYI. Lets go to Gary in
Phoenix. You're on 910 KFYI, Gary.
--: Hi Kim.
KK: Hi.
--: First of all, I agree with John. You have a, have a great show here.
KK: Well, thank you. I appreciate it Gary.
--: Also, I have a comment concerning hacking, just real quick here. I, I agree
with you hacking is wrong, and ah, those who...
KK: Why do you think its wrong, Gary? Tell me.
--: Its morally wrong. I mean, its like the, ah, analogy of looking in
someone's window.
KK: Yeah, its just not nice, you know I mean...
--: Invasion of privacy.
KK: That's right.
--: And, ah, those that can't understand that will some day when they grow up.
KK: Yeah. <laughs> When they do grow up.
--: Yes.
KK: When they do go legitimate in their lives.
--: Right. Well, the reason I called is I have a question concerning Prodigy.
I just heard a real interesting rumor, maybe you and Merc can answer it if
its true or not. You know how Prodigy is different than on Compuserve or
Delphi where, on Prodigy, you have, ah, they send you the software. I
understand Prodigy has a lawsuit against them concerning invasion of
privacy, because with that software, they can go in and look at your hard
drive and see what kind of programs you are running there, like Word
Perfect, Wordstar...
KK: Yeah, you know what, there is, ah...that's an interesting point and yes,
it is a rumor. Ah, I do not know if its true. Ah, I believe... Do I
believe it happens? Yeah, I do. Ah, because, you know, if you look at, in
the Prodigy directory after you use Prodigy...
--: Yes.
KK: ...there's, ah, there's something called a DAT file. And if you open up
that DAT file, its a file directory of everything that you got on your
computer. Alright?
--: Yes.
KK: Which means that it happens.
--: Uhuh.
KK: That somehow when you sign onto Prodigy it happens. Ok, they know that you
got Word Perfect 5.1, they know you got Wordstar, you know, whatever.
Whatever, you know, whatever you got on there. Now as far as do they use
that information, ah, I really don't know. Ah, you know, Merc, what do you
think?
MY: Umm, actually, I wouldn't ever take the chances. I would use the Internet,
a non, a non-graphic space.
KK: Ok but, but you know, but if you're using Prodigy, Gary...
--: Yes.
KK: Ok, you know, the bottom line is, is ah, you know, it is a rumor but do I
think it happens? Yeah, I think so. Now is it, you know, is it a problem?
Ok? I don't think so.
--: Would you classify it as hacking?
KK: Ah, if...
MR: No.
KK: Ah, I don't, I don't think so. You know, I wouldn't...that's not hacking.
MY: Maybe a one time hack for the programmer who wrote it to do that.
KK: But, you know, I don't, I don't think that... Do I think that's right? No,
I do not think that's right. But Prodigy does do that. And is there...you
know, has it been in the news? Yeah it does. Yeah, it has been in the news
that they do make that DAT file. Now, I don't know what its used for. You
know, sometimes people say, well, you know, I've got an illegal version of
Wordstar out there, ok?
--: Yes.
KK: Now Prodigy knows. So now I'm setting myself up, cause I'm, ah, you know,
to go against some copyright suits because I got an illegal copy of
software on my hard disk. So, you know, ah, you know, I don't know if
there's any right, right answer for this. Other than do I think it happens?
Yeah. Yeah, I think it does.
--: Ok, so, you can't confirm it. And, and I just heard it, just amazed me they
would be doing something like that.
KK: You know what, Gary? You know what I'm gonna do is? I'm gonna, ah, I'm
gonna write Prodigy a note this week. Ok?
--: Ok.
KK: And I'm gonna ask them your question and next week I'm gonna read you their
response.
--: Great.
KK: Ok?
--: Ok.
KK: And, ah, we'll see what Prodigy has to say.
--: Sure, that would be good.
KK: In their words.
--: Ok.
KK: Alrightie, I appreciate your calling in sir.
--: Thanks. Fine.
KK: And, ah, if you want to join in the conversation we got one line open. And,
and, Prodigy is an online service. Its pretty cool. You know, its got a lot
of good things on it. And ah, you know, if your a first time user, Prodigy
is really...its a, its a good product. Let's go to Bill in Mesa. Bill,
you're on 910 KFYI.
--: Howdy.
KK: Hi.
--: Yes, I have a friend. He, umm, has a bulletin board.
KK: Ok.
--: And he was running it for awhile. Somebody got in there twice and totally
wiped it out. My question is, ah, is there ways the public out here can
protect themselves? What are the common ways they get into their computers?
KK: You know what, Bill? You bring up an interesting point that we should cover.
And I appreciate you calling in and asking it. Because the way that someone
can get in your computer, number one, is if, is if you, ah, leave your
computer on, and you leave it tied in with the modem on. Ok, or, you know,
you have the modem, you know, hooked in. You got the phone line in. So all
somebody has to do is tie in, tie in through a regular telephone line. And
if your computer is set up that way, then yes, they can get in your
computer. Ok? And its not a difficult thing to do as, as these two, ah,
gentlemen here have been, have been expressing. You know, how easy it is.
Ah, if there's...as far as different things you can do, there's, there
certainly is security software. Most bulletin board services... I'm
surprised that he has had that happen. Because will ask you to, ah, to
enter in your, you know, your first, your last name, your ID, and, ah, and
so on and so forth, like Mustang. But, ah, let me ask you Mind Rape, what
can, what can a person do to prevent somebody like you from getting in
their computer?
MR: Well, first off, if its, its a bulletin board system. Ok, I'm not surprised
that someone has gotten in. Because most bulletin board system software has
been poorly written. Even Wildcat.
KK: Well, its, its shareware, ok?
MR: Ok. And people who do this aren't really hackers. They go in there and
they, you know, eliminate people's drives. They destroy them. That is not
a hacker. That is, ah, you know, a board crasher.
KK: They're not hackers?
MY: No, they're a crasher.
MR: They're a board crasher. They go in there purposefully...
KK: Oh, this is a different one.
MR: They harm the sysop. We don't want to bother sysops. We don't want to
bother system administrators. We don't want to damage anything. By doing
that, you upset the natural way, the natural way the system operates.
KK: Ok, now what can... I don't want to get into...
MR: Ok.
KK: ...what's the difference between crasher and a hacker right now. Let's
answer the question. What can a person do, to prevent, you know, as a
precaution, So that somebody who is a crasher or hacker, or whatever you
want to call, you know, yourselves...
??: Uhuh.
KK: What, what can they do to prevent themselves from getting... What can you
do as a safety measure?
MY: I would say use a, ah, a software, a version of software that's known to
be secure. And I wouldn't dare say...
KK: What does that mean?
MY :I wouldn't dare say that all, all bulletin software is secure because I'm
sure all of...everything out there has bugs in it.
KK: What about, like, you know...no, give me some names...
MY: Major BBS is fairly, ah, is fairly, ah, secure.
KK: No. Security software. Do you know any names of any...
MY: I meant,. I meant use a bulletin board software that's known to be more
secure.
KK: And what would that be?
MY: Major BBS for one.
KK: Ok. And, ah, what else?
MY: Breadfan.
KK: Breadfan. Does that answer your question Bill?
--: Well, how about Telix? Telix has like a quick host. And, is that gonna be
one that will have a lot of problems?
MR: Umm, Telix is a telecommunications program as you already know and it will
not allow people to drop to DOS. Ok? It puts them in a terminal mode. You
would have to actually run a program called Doorway that would allow them to
drop to DOS and actually mess around on your hard drive.
--: So if I wanted to, ah, remote boot to my own computer, umm, I'd be able to
do that, as long as I don't use Doorway.
MR: I would suggest a software called PC Anywhere.
KK: Or, there's another one called, ah, Carbon Copy put out by Microcom that
does the same thing though.
MY: Right.
MR: And its those kind of software will offer more security features.
KK: Yeah, cause what you have to do is you have to log in. Ok? You gotta log
in, enter, ah, you know, I think there's three or four levels of security
You know, where you have to to enter in various levels of passwords in
order to get in there.
MY: And remove any defaults that, ah, that come from the manufacturer.
--: Do these people get together and compare different ways they figure out how
to get into these kind of programs?
MY: Not as much as they used to.
KK: Do you swap stories? You do?
MY: With each other, maybe.
KK: I mean, is this like, I mean do you sit around the fire and say hey I got
into this computer, bud. Let me show you how to access...
MY: That's how most hackers get caught. Talking too much.
KK: Ok, so, so, ok, but they get caught.
MY: Right.
KK: Ok, they get...hackers get caught. Let's listen to that sentence. Hackers
get caught.
MY: Right.
KK: Ok, now. Thieves get caught.
MY: Right.
KK: Hackers get caught.
MY: Right.
KK: Hackers are thieves.
MY: No.
MR: No. Dogs can get caught by dog catchers.
KK: Ok, but hackers get caught. Ok, that, that means they're not doing
something right. And Bill, I appreciate you calling in, sir. We've got one
line open if you want to join in. 258-5394. 258-KFYI. Let's go to Ray in
Scottsdale. Ray, you're on 910 KFYI.
--: Hi gang, how ya doing.
KK: Good.
--: Ok.
MY: Mediocre.
--: Ummm... <laughs> I can see why. Ummm, just to let you know, this is Ray
Moore, the president of the PC User group. And I want to address your
guests Kim. First of all, their mixing a lot of metaphors and they're
trying to take the, ah, its just like in that last sentence, dogs get
caught. You know, we're not talking about dogs. We're talking about people
doing things they're not supposed to.
KK: People. That's right Ray. We're talking about people. We're not, we're not
dogs. Ok.
--: They're also using the metaphors of walking by a window and if just happen
to be walking by and you happen not to close the window and if they happen
to catch a glance of, of someone changing their clothes, that's ok because
its the persons fault for not closing the window. Well, they're not just
happening to be walking by. They're deliberately going out there, they're
looking for systems...
KK: They're peepers...
--: They're, well, they're worse than that. They're, they're trying to find
people home. But getting, getting away from the metaphors, they're
deliberately going out there, they're looking for systems online, and,
granted there may be a couple that don't have any kind of security, but
that's very rare. But they're going and they're having to get past
someone's security, so if you want to use another analogy, breaking and
entering. And, ummm, that's another point that needs to be brought up.
There's also, you're saying, ah, about the whole ethics issue, your saying
well, its ethical to us. There's also the thing as honor amongst thieves,
but would you say that thieves are ethical people?
KK: Would you? Come on, now...
MY: Well, thieves aren't, but we don't steal.
--: But that's not the point. There's, there's honor amongst murderers.
MR: Oh, I thought that was the point.
--: No. No. No. No.
MR: Thieves get caught. Hackers get caught. So the analogy there is supposed
to be hackers are thieves.
--: And you say no hackers, ah...thieves.
MY: I would say there have been hackers that steal but because they steal,
that doesn't make them a hacker. You can't...
KK: But Mind Rape, you got busted for stealing. Ok, you got busted once.
MR: Yes, I...
MY: That didn't make him a hacker though.
KK: Ok, but, ok, you weren't a hacker then? What were you then?
MY: I'm not saying that thieves can't be hackers. I'm saying just because they
steal that doesn't make them a hacker. There's more to being a hacker.
MR: Its a state of mind.
--: But what you're doing...
MR: Its a state of mind. Its the way we think.
--: No, its not a state of mind.
MR: Yes it is.
--: No.
MR: Its the way we get creative.
--: No, well...
MR: Most of your systems out there, some of them are really secure and stuff
like that, and it takes some creativity just to get in these systems.
--: It doesn't take creativity for a thief to go in and break into a car, or
break into someone's house, or break into something else?
MR: We don't care about valuables. We don't care about financial gain and stuff
like that. All we want to do is learn.
--: But you can go to school for learning. And you're saying...
MR: Schools out there are sucky.
--: No. No, hear me out. Hear me out. You've had your chance to talk for a
couple hours here. You're saying hacking is a school. Is that what you're
trying to say?
MR: It's a method of learning.
--: Ok, so is sitting down and trying to devise things on your own but without
going into someone else's resources. Its like saying when criminals get
caught and they go to jail, and they learn how to be better criminals
because talk to more hardened criminals.
KK: That's right.
--: And you're saying that's a school. And what employer do you think is going
to hire you and look at you and say well lets see your credentials and you
say well I hacked into this system.
KK: Let's, let's, you know, let's put this on our resume.
--: Yes.
KK: Let's, let's put this on our resume. Let's say that...
MR: I don't mind putting it on my resume. But to address your question...
One, I don't have the money for school, ok? Second of all, I don't have the
money to buy a Cray and the software to learn from it. Ok? If you're
willing to give me money. Fine, I'll do it.
KK: Yeah, but...
MR: I don't have the money, so, I have to find these resources on my own. Even
if it does, or takes, illegal means to do it.
KK: If it takes, even if it takes illegal means to do it.
MR: But I want to learn! Is that the crime, here? Wanting to learn?
KK: Not at all. But there are...
MR: But, but, It seems like it is!
KK: Learning is a wonderful thing. Learning is great. I mean, every...I propose
education everywhere, where ever I go. I'm on the board of the Consumer
Education, you know, board of Software Publisher's Association, just for
consumer education. So we get computers out there so people can use
computers.
MR: Let me give you...
KK: There are other ways to learn other than getting inside of a computer.
MR: Computers allow me to access information very fast. Ok? I learn very fast.
And by using computers, it allows me to work at my own pace. Which is, you
know, very fast. And, in school they move very slow. They cover chapter in
three weeks. I can cover that chapter in five minutes.
KK: You can't beat formal education.
MR: Formal education doesn't work.
KK: Yes it does.
MR: It doesn't work for me.
KK: Look around you. Look around you.
MR: In high school, I was a very bored person. I got good grades in high
school, but yet I was a very bored person. I had nothing to do. So I turned
to computer and started learning from that.
KK: Ok, and computers can do a lot for you.
MR: That's right.
KK: Computers can do wonderful things....
MR: Even in my computer class, my teachers encouraged me to explore.
KK: That's good.
MR: Because I...the computer classes were too simple. So they said here, learn
from these books. Well, I'm done. Well, here here...
KK: Well, I'm sorry that you're brighter than the most people out there.
MR: Its not just me. Its a lot of hackers. A lot of these hackers are in the
same situation.
KK: But, the bottom line in all this, ok, is that you can go to school. There
is a such thing as financial aid. Ok. You can find a class, you can
befriend a dean at a university. Ok. I was one of these people that thought
I was to smart to go through computer classes.
MR: No, I'm not...
KK: Ok, let me finish. Alright? Ok. What I did was I started my own company
when I was going to school. Because I know the value of a piece of paper.
Could I have worked for IBM without that piece of paper? No. Did I turn to
hacking in order to learn? No. Ok, I did it the right way. And that's the
way that it should be done. It shouldn't be done going into somebody else's
homes. I'm Kim Kommando here on 910 KFYI.
<commercial break>
Intro Music: <should know it, dammit, but don't>
KK: We're back. And we're talking about whether or not its right to be hackers
in our lives. Whether or not we should use this as a way to make ourselves
better members of society. Whether or not, the, the ah, as Mind Rape says,
he couldn't learn what he learns by hacking in schools. Well I have to
remind you, Mind Rape and Merc here, that in Arizona and in the 49 other
states, here... And as one of our callers said, you know there's certain
rules that we abide by that allow us to live in the United States of
America, and it makes it a good country. Now in Arizona and the 49 other
states, unauthorized access, two words, unauthorized access is a class 6
felony. Ok, its a felony. It's wrong. Its not right to do. Now, if you go
in there and do something bad, ok, you're up on the felony echelon, here,
ok. Unlike how you got busted for telephone fraud. Its a class 6 felony.
Is it wrong for it to be a class 6 felony? I mean, is it wrong,
unauthorized access?
MY: Well, you have to remember, the people who made these laws are not the most
computer literate people. You have to consider...
KK: So, our laws are wrong?
MY: Well, is it...
KK: Our laws are not good.
MY: Ummm, its not for me to judge. Its not in my opinion. I don't think all
laws are clearly written.
KK: Ok, so, our laws are wrong?
MY: Is that all it says?
KK: The laws are not right.
MY: Is that all it says?
KK: I don't have, I don't have it here in front of me.
MY: Its probably a lot more, a lot more, a lot more accurate than that...
KK: It is a class 6 felony. The bottom line is unauthorized access is a class 6
felony. That's what it is. What you're doing is wrong. It's not right. It's
wrong. And our laws are written by the people, for the benefit of the
people. Ok, it's a class 6 felony. And that's why you got busted. Let's go
to the phones. George, in Phoenix, your on 910 KFYI.
--: Hi Kim. I'm really enjoying the program.
KK: Thank you.
--: Ummm, I have little bit, little bit different, ah, view from this, ah on
this, ah, hacking situation. First of all, these guys, to me, sound like
they're brilliant. And they're very bored.
KK: George, you have to be smart in order to hack. I agree with ya.
--: Exactly.
KK: Ok.
--: And they're very bored. And they really need a challenge. I would think
it would be very advantageous for businesses, large corporations, to hire
these people to try to break into their systems so that they can find the
flaws in it.
KK: Which, yeah George, its happened.
MY: It's been done.
KK: That's what they're doing.
MY: I'll comment on that after...
--: No, I mean, paid...have the... I don't just mean do it on their own. I mean
for the corporations to hire them to do this so they can improve their
systems so they aren't able to break in, to be broke into.
KK: So we know we have a career for you guys, ok.
MR: I...
--: Exactly. I mean really, these guys... Who would look your house over to
tell you how to protect it from a burglar?
KK: That's right.
--: Somebody's that's done that in the past.
MY: There's...
--: Now these guys are not doing anything really bad, ah, with respect to
stealing and changing data and so forth, then they have knowledge we need
to, to umm, to use for our benefit.
KK: And George...
--: We're not just gonna say go away and they disappear. They're gonna, they're
gonna be doing this, until they, you know...
KK: And George, I appreciate it. Because, you know, your absolutely right and
it has been done. In, ah, in San Francisco there was a company up there who
actually hired hackers.
--: Uhuh.
KK: To break into their system and to tell them where the flaws were.
--: Exactly.
KK: So that this way they knew where all the parts were of that system that
could be broken into by the bad hackers in the world, if there is such a
thing as bad hackers.
--: Uhuh.
KK: Ok, and, now, my personal feeling is that, that its not hackers...its, its
not right. Its a class 6 felony. Its wrong. Its a wrong thing to do. It's
un...
--: Yes. It is wrong.
KK: Yeah. It's unauthorized access...
--: But if these guys have that ability, then there's other people that have
that ability that are not gonna be, ah, unscrupulous about it. They're
gonna make the adjustments. They're gonna make the changes. They're gonna
steal the data. So what we need to do is get somebody that can teach other
people how to protect their systems.
KK: And, you're absolutely right George. And I appreciate you for calling in and
bringing up that comment. Take command of your computer. Well, it's
copyrighted 1993 by the Broadcast Group. All rights are reserved. I'm Kim
Kommando. We've been taking command of that computer. Every Saturday six to
eight pm, here on 910 KFYI.
Exit Music...
<This is the end of segment four and the end of the program.>