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The article doesn't do this directly, but to push back against the implicit message:
Google directly employs 2 orders of magnitude more people than live in my suburb. It is meaningless - completely meaningless - to hold up one example of a subcontractor as some sort of general case. Especially without context, there is probably more to the story that didn't make the article.
Also my condolences to this woman if her parents named her Tuesday.
Please don't cross into personal attack. It's not in the spirit of the site, and you can make your substantive points without it.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
One thing I very much appreciate about the hacker news community are comments like this.
I didnât read the article but clicked in of the comments âknowingâ they be stuffed with Reddit like fury. âHow dare they!â
I was wrong⊠Like usual.
It seems this community is significantly less jump-to-outrage prone than many others (eg. much of Reddit).
We still let the marketing-engineered clickbait headlines slip through (since they are the actual articlesâ titles) - such as the title of this post.
But still, some of the least outrage-y responses on the internet.
Thank you Reonxi and thank you HN community.
Edit: spelling (more bloody autocorrect fails)
When youâre an expert in any field and you see how journalists botch something so basic, youâll learn to be a lot more skeptical of articles in other fields as well.
Thereâs a name for this thatâs not coming to my mind right now
Gell-Mann amnesia.
Well akshually... Gell-Mann amnesia is _the opposite of_ what they described (though it's probably still what they had in mind). It's the tendency to read reportage about something on which you're an expert, realise how wildly incorrect it is, _but then_ to proceed to the next page of the newspaper and totally trust their reporting on another topic - as opposed to 'learning to be a lot more sceptical'. Hence the 'amnesia' bit.
Letâs not pick on peopleâs names here. Itâs not relevant and most often the person didnât choose their name.
Also, January Jones is a fine actress. See her in Mad Men if you havenât already.
Eh, I find this tone policing more aversive than the actual comment. As a lighthearted joke it's fine IMO - preferable to reading a whole thread of everyone telling each other off, as though we were on Twitter.
There was a famous actress with that as a stage name:
https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001839/
There is also mention of another person in the same datacenter being fired for talking about unions on social media -- who knows if that's a Google contractor as well.
Regardless, I think this is a bit of a strong reaction to what amounts to a light "human interest meets tech" collection of tiny stories. It includes as much detail about a spat over tweets, and a rescue dog's story being sold as an NFT (...), as it does this worker's story. It's pure fluff and it wears that on its sleeve.
> Also my condolences to this woman if her parents named her Tuesday.
Tuesday Carne, I think it's a play on Taco Tuesday?
Could be alternate spelling of the Carney surname.
...Tuesday's gone with the wind?
I'm reminded of all the Youtube and lost account disputes brought here; we hear about these things because there's no other working dispute process.
> my condolences to this woman if her parents named her Tuesday.
At least it wasn't My Girl Friday.
Tuesday Carne is certainly a distracting pseudonym. Carne means meat in Spanish.
Replace it with Sausage to get an idea about how it affects my mind, and why you should be careful about what you draw attention to.
##The worker, Saturday Sausage, worked for a Google subcontractor called Modis in South Carolina. At a meeting Nov. 17, managers told her and others they had to work the holiday without any extra pay, Sausage says. I spoke with Sausage, and she said, âThe only thing in my mind that I thought could be against the rules is that I said, âThatâs bull**â.â Google employeesâ Alphabet Workers Union is helping Sausage file paperwork with the feds.
Edit: I live in a third world country and not all Holidays are the same. Some are ALWAYS paid in full (workers earn twice as much if they work during the holiday, and thrice as much if the holiday was sunday free day), some are optional (the worker may ask the day off without pay) some are irrelevant (they aren't Holidays for the worker)
Holidays are appointed by a government as a way to gain popularity. They are costly for employers.
This union doesn't usually use pseudonyms in news stories, and I don't see any indication that they did here. A previous example:
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-56659212
The union consistently used the person's actual name when talking about the case.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carne
Right! The surname exists! Still distracting, I would use a pseudonym if it was me.
The article's author, Jeff Elder, writes:
Now, I donât know about you, but I have three reactions to this:
Now, I donât know about you, but I have one reaction to this: you're a newspaper reporter, Jeff. State the facts; I don't care about your opinion.
I donât think this tweet is the original source, but it was the only source I could find.
https://mobile.twitter.com/ryanafournier/status/108776604858...
> The news used to tell you that something happened, then you had to decide what you thought about it.
> Now the news tells you how to think about something, and you have to decided if it even happened.
Was it ever any different, though? I know it looks like things have changed like your quote days but the question remains.
Having trust in something does not make it true
See the book âTrust me, Iâm lyingâ to see how the US journeyed from ad & attention driven media (yellow journalism) to subscription/brand driven journalism (The New York Times was one of the first with âall the news thatâs fit to printâ), back to ad/attention driven journalism on steroids (the internet + Google news and Facebook - though less for FB since the algorithm updates).
Itâs a great/terrifying book and Iâve personally witnessed the results
Edit: To clarify, I point this out because there was a good 80ish years where journalism was less about grabbing and holding your attention and more about maintaining subscribers. Since it was very hard to maintain subscribers if you just kept throwing click bait and half-accurate news at them, it helped improve their accuracy.
Thank you. I totally agree. It's absolutely exhausting to read journalism which is endlessly hammering you with the value judgements you're meant to make. Just give me the facts, and I can do the opinions myself.
You are reading this article for free on the internet. Provided that his employer is OK with it, he can do whatever he wants.
Have you ever read a newspaper? Newspapers are full of op-eds, commentary, and opinion.
Some quality newspapers will separate the two, having a section for reporting facts, and a section for opinions, but many papers don't have this strict distinction.
And to be honest, the fact that some Google subcontractor fired an employee isn't really the kind of world-shattering news that warrants a strictly fact based objective news article that everyone must read about. It's just not important enough. You can however use it as a hook for an opinion piece, like this reporter has done.
> State the facts; I don't care about your opinion.
I believe it was a young Edward R Murrow who submitted copy to his editor who later returned it, saying, "Cut the sauce, Murrow!"
Finding something palatable to read these days is quite the struggle.
you are obviously unfamiliar with the examiner
The line âI donât know what âunGoogleyâ meansâ should tell you everything you need to know
Regardless of whether you think people should be paid extra for working on a holiday, or whether you think its right that a union is helping this person, what should be _immediately obvious_ is that firing someone for questioning a policy is completely wrong.
It also should be _immediately obvious_ that this is one person's story, with no information from the other side, amongst tens of thousands of employees.
> It also should be immediately obvious that this is one person's story, with no information from the other side,
I had an employee that was an insufferable asshole. Breaking his NDA. Not doing good work. Late. Running a scam raffle âforâ his sick kid. Etc. We fired him for the first reason we could that wouldnât get us a lawsuit.
He runs around to this day bad-mouthing us because we fire people for the tiniest of infractions. It was a lot easier to prove he damaged company property than it was to fight a year for three lawsuit that involved patent and NDA laws.
Not saying that is what happened here, because I donât know. Just a totally unrelated anecdote.
Depends. In other reports, she has admitted that they way she questioned the policy was by cussing out her supervisor. She had been on the job for less than two weeks.
Given those additional facts, I don't have very much sympathy for her position.
Given that, I donât know if itâs the first but I strongly suspect this is not the last time sheâll suffer such an âinjusticeâ.
100%. This reminds me of the Google AI kerfuffle with whatshername. For a certain kind of person, "I just questioned company policy" tends to mean "I was an insufferable sanctimonious raging asshole to everyone involved, because of my unyielding certainty in my own righteousness, and then I was absolutely shocked to my core at my employer firing someone who burned more bridges than Scipio sacking Carthage".
She works for a sub, that's why they pay the premium, to insulate. This is sorta dumb.
It's entirely dumb. She was fired by the company she contracted for, not by Google. No Google employee had any involvement in that decision. The sole reason that the word 'Google' is attached to this article - and to her complaints - is because it generates more publicity.
It's also very unclear where the "unGoogley" wording comes from. The article doesn't directly attribute it to anyone in her company, much less in Google, though it does everything else it possibly can to _insinuate_ that one of her overlings said it. My hunch is that the quote is actually from her.
Do people typically get paid more for working on holidays? I can't say I've heard of that but I've also always been salaried, where extra work is not directly compensated.
> Do people typically get paid more for working on holidays?
Yes, of course.
But It depends on the type of job contract. A physician that must remain in the hospital in Christmas Eve to deal with a ton of drunken people is paid more. A tow truck driver is expected to be available at any time or day and can be paid the same. Their work has a different concept of what is extra time, and a researcher passing the night in the university just wouldn't be paid for that.
> A physician that must remain in the hospital in Christmas Eve to deal with a ton of drunken people is paid more.
Certainly depends. I have physician family members who never got paid more for working on holidays because all the holidays were divided equally among the doctors in the group, e.g. if there were 5 doctors each one had to work every 5th Christmas, etc.
I ran a call center some years ago, and I would pay people double the hourly rate to work on holidays. I always saw it as the ânot an assholeâ thing to do. I also didnât fire people for just bring up the question of their pay.
It's the good thing to do for sure! Not surprising that Google doesn't give a shit though, especially for contract workers.
If youâre hourly Christmas, Thanksgiving and Easter are typically paid the same as overtime. Pretty sure there is (or at least used to be) something legal attached to it as we used to get time and a half when I waited tables. This was not used as incentive as the minimum for waiters was like half the federal minimum wage due to tips being the primary revenue source.
In the US, there is no federal or state law that requires higher pay for specific dates or times of day.
Edit: I was not correct, Massachusetts and Rhode Island have some laws about pays on certain days or dates:
https://www.mass.gov/guides/working-on-sundays-and-holidays-...
https://dlt.ri.gov/regulation-and-safety/labor-standards/lab...
Although, a cursory look says Massachusetts is phasing it out Sunday premium pay as of Jan 1, 2023.
Yes, in Canada you are paid double time for Statutory holidays.
Sorry, I should have specified the US. I don't think we have any holidays that companies are required to give employees off.
Normally itâs time and a half on federal holidays for hourly workers in the US.
How does that work for a salaried person?
I'd assume they have extra pay reported on the following month. Same system as for extra hours (don't exactly for Canada but it's probably something like X percent more for hours worked after 22h) and work done on planned holidays (you went on holiday but got a work request)
Time in lieu.
Every salaried, or more specifically, except job I have had came with paid time off for holidays and every hourly, or non exempt job has had holiday time and a half or double time for holiday work. In some states, itâs even a legal requirement.
Yes, I do expect there to be PTO holidays, but that seems to be entirely up to the will of the employer if they actually give that. Unless I was desperate there's no way I would accept a job offer if the company didn't give the major holidays off (or extra vacation days to allow for flexible holidays)
I only got paid extra when I worked in IT for the government. Not sure why people would expect extra pay though in a non-unionized, private sector job if it wasnât part of the employment contract.
Time-and-a-half or double wages are common holiday pay in the US. Theyâre not required everywhere, though.
They are not required anywhere in the US. It only depends on whether or not an employer wants to or has to give more pay due to supply/demand of labor.
Edit: I was incorrect, Massachusetts and Rhode Island do stipulate higher pay for some days/dates:
https://dlt.ri.gov/regulation-and-safety/labor-standards/lab...
https://www.mass.gov/guides/working-on-sundays-and-holidays-...
These two links have more substance:
https://www.latintimes.com/find-out-why-google-employee-lost...
https://www.protocol.com/workplace/google-contractor-fired-u...
What is the apparent connection between having purple hair and being disgruntled at work? If you look at the Alphabet Workers Union "who we are" page the rate of artificially dyed hair is like 5 orders of magnitude above the background rate. Is it cause or effect? Does the dye poison your brain?
The Alphabet Workers Union members are of course OK with paying twice the price in restaurants and in stores outside of the normal working hours.
I know it's not unheard of, but i have never in my career been offered extra money for working holidays.
I think it's the right thing to do, both for the worker and for the business (don't want grumpy workers on the holidays), but yeah if you throw a tantrum (?) for not getting a perk, then that sounds ungoogley.
In virtually the entire developed world outside the US, holiday pay is a given. In some countries like Switzerland you literally need to apply to the government for permission to work Sundays.
Early in my career, I worked in the USA for a top tier employer in a PhD level position (not a manager then).It was a full-time position, which I believe is exempt from over time. Worked a 12 hour day on thxgiving when something stupid happened (due to lack of management foresight). Wasn't just me but others too. Got a gift card in appreciation for 50 bucks or something. No overtime/extra pay. Time off in lieu was a joke as we were working like crazy and barely able to utilize owed PTO (which you could not cash out). This episode prompted me to put the feelers out to switch jobs, which I then did.
As a manager, I now push back hard on behalf of my team when I see unrealistic deadlines (especially around holiday times). This year, I had to fight a lot more than usual. The issue is success is required on a stupid timeline. Or else. I keep feeling I'm playing russian roulette with my job. But I reflect on my past experiences and think I'll be okay if I get kicked out. So .. cest la vie .. I'll do what I think is right.
In CA at least, not being able to cash out non-expired, accruable PTO is wage theft.
Which is why some companies pivoted to "unlimited time off" so you never accrue any official PTO and it's up to you to make sure you take any time off whatsoever. And just like open office floor plans, they portrayed this cost saving measure as a perk. Once you understand how this game works, you know to follow the money first.
Edit: Guess the truth hurts...
https://www.shrm.org/resourcesandtools/hr-topics/employee-re...
I don't know about you but I don't want my PTO to even be able to be cashed out. I'd rather have 30 days of PTO required by law and the company gets dinged for not letting me take it.
The US seems to have a culture of overwork where even being able to just get the PTO paid out feeds that's cycle. Work 80 hour weeks or you are shunned by the co-workers. Want to take some PTO? Nah, just get it paid out man!
We have to break that cycle.
Iâd rather take the cash today and stash it for savings tomorrow. Iâm highly skeptical SWE will pay well when Iâm ready to retire in 29 years.
I think your example of how the employer behaves is a big part in how people react.
If your employer doesn't value you then I think it is absolutely the right thing to do what the person in the article did. Resist. Make other people resist. If possible in more subvertive ways instead of just getting fired loudly.
If my employer values me then they don't even have to ask. I'll gladly help the company out where needed. If I know that I actually can take time and a half off in lieu of working on a holiday that's totally OK. These employers do exist. Find them and work for them and make them great.
I worked many jobs here in US and they all had holiday pay. So if I worked I would get paid 1.5x and if I didn't work I would still get paid as if I did.
Not supporting the idea that anyone is entitled to this, but saying it is not uncommon. I think it is regional within the US and maybe depends if you are hourly or salary based.
That seems unfair.
If you get paid time-off, then that is paid at your normal rate of pay, and you don't have to work for it.
If you work one day during your PTO, then surely that work should be compensated at your daily rate of pay, in addition to your pay for time-off. Why should you work a day at half-pay?
So working during paid time-off should be compensated at double-time.
Time-and-a-half was customary in the UK for overtime, in the days of trades unions. The opportunity to work overtime was prized, and in fact sometimes workers would "go slow" during normal time, to ensure there was enough work left for overtime. Nobody worked normal hours that included public holidays, so those hours were compensated at double time. Christmas Day would sometimes command triple-time.
It depends on how deep the employer's pockets are and what supply and demand looks like for the type of labor. Fast food workers, small retail businesses, franchised hotels, all do not typically get holiday pay. Generally, the lower the income, the lower the chance of holiday pay.
How about Japan?
Japan is, as ever, complicated. On paper, there are strong labor protections, even salaried employees need to be paid hourly overtime and the concept of "oncall" is foreign to labor law: either you're fully on the clock or not. In reality, many of these regulations are cheerfully ignored and unpaid overtime is quite common, but there is wide variance between companies.
Japan is a KarĆshi country, it's in a completely different league. Several of my Japanese friends openly say they are not happy. The pressure of the society is enormous and it's practically impossible to resist. The traditional roles are still very strong and do cause problems for daughters (and probably to their fathers, although they are not allowed to admit that). Many things are twisted in an unhealthy way.
Itâs not accurate to say âvirtually the entire developed world outside the USâ if Japan doesnât qualify. Japan is the second largest developed nation by population and economic output. If someone means âwhite countriesâ they ought to say that.
Yes, I agree - it would be more correct to say âvirtually the entire developed world outside the US and Japan.â I don't believe mixing skin color adds anything to the conversation except maybe the fact that a lot of labor abuse is happening in Asia in general. But Japan is very special because you don't need to work yourself to death in order to survive, but to fit in and don't fail the expectations of everybody around you.
The US and Japan are about half the developed world. I donât think the _virtually ⊠except_ formula gives the correct impression given that fact.
OK, let;s put it differently. In terms of paid holidays per year, the USA is on a par with Argentina and two African countries:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_annual_leave_b...
This is of course great for people like Bezos and Musk, but terrible for the society at large.
Every union job I've had holiday pay, and every white collar job has paid time off for holidays.
In my life the only jobs that skipped holiday pay were hypercapitalist organizations that didn't have a unionized workforce and didn't compensate people for their time humanely.
Yeah, in most parts of the world national holidays are holidays because you don't have to work without worrying you won't be paid for that day. If you have a Bezos-like mindset, it may seems stupid and inefficient, but this is short-sighted. Having holidays where - irrespective of other PTO, which is very scarce in the USA - you can reunite with your family or just be alone if you prefer, spend time doing what you love etc, gives you the reason to go back to work. Otherwise, if you just work for the sake of working, what's the point? You just get older and die. Maybe if you're one of the lucky ones and have a job that gives you 100% satisfaction and inspiration all of the time, it might not matter that much, but most people don't have jobs like that, and even if it seems so, it may change with time. You Americans need to stand up and fight for your rights.