💾 Archived View for gemini.susa.net › cgi-bin › gemini-irc captured on 2021-12-03 at 14:04:38. Gemini links have been rewritten to link to archived content
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sudo integrate it with maddy.email
epoch: My irc client interprets some.thing/path as https://some.thing/path
Arahael's link to 'https://some.thing/path'
There's no such thing as "schemeless links" in practice. At best, the scheme is implied.
giving Amfora a "some.thing" url works the same as gemini://some.thing
Seek's link to 'gemini://some.thing'
in the bottom bar
some.thing is relative in some contexts and absolute in others
Amfora assumes gemini, then.
well, in the url-bar it makes sense to not require the //s
but in a text/gemini file, some.thing/path should be interpreted as current-schem://current-authority/current-dir/some.thing/path
in an IRC client it kind of makes sense to go with url-bar rules.
there be netsplits
hi all, hope this isnt asked too often
working on an app that uses a gemini frontend. never done TLS before, but i managed to generate a valid(?) certificate and key for testing on localhost
though my client (lagrange) says that the site is untrusted
why is that? and how can i change that?
owocean: Gemini mostly uses a principle called TOFU (Trust On First Use), where browsers accept whatever they're given at first, then store it for all time, similar to SSH keys
so if a server has invalid keys from the beginning, and those get updated, it wont be trusted?
a self-signed cert is considered valid, heh
noted
invalid keys are ones that a) aren't well formed, b) don't match the hostname the user is requesting, or c) have changed since first use
thank you!
and an unrelated question, why do people have "tilde.vhost" and "tilde.team" in their irc name while i have my own IP address?
owocean: the tilde.team ones are legit internet hostnames
right but.. why
ive never really understood how IRC worked, sorry for my ignorance
it's okay. i'm trying to think of the cleanest short explanation
when you connect, servers look up your hostname via reverse DNS
then verify that the hostname found by rDNS actually resolves back to your IP
if either of those fails, you have an IP on IRC. otherwise, you get a hostname
so *your* ip resolves to cyberspace baby, and IRC uses that
yeap
i think thats where im confused. are you on a terminal IRC client right now? inside of cyberspace baby?
i'm connected through a bouncer that stays connected for me and hides my IP
very neat
is this chat bridged to matrix by any chance
not sure. i didn't see any tilde stuff when i was on Matrix
what app are you building? what's the Gemini frontend?
oh its just a silly little web crawler
does http(s), gopher, and gemini crawling (with tor support)
the internet is a dark forest right now. this was supposed to find as much as it can and store it, then serve it to users (via gemini frontend) at random
cool! :)
i always loved looking around on the web, checking out people's blogs and funky websites. the more obscure, the better
it's great to have that back on Gemini
it's been hard to find that stuff on the web. or at least, to feel confident browsing it
Seek: gemini://gemini.cyberbot.space/smolzine/ :)
ew0k's link to 'gemini://gemini.cyberbot.space/smolzine/'
they were missing the trailing /
I guess cyberbot.space doesn't redirect /smolzine to /smolzine/
bug?
heh
I feel like I just witnessed attempted identity theft
you wat?
:]
surprised_pikachu.gif
would have been a very piss-poor attempt
was more a comment on the similarity our nicks had already
I figured, I was just joking!
wasn't sure. poe's law is a pain.
not as painful as murphy's ;)
Good morning, btw :)
morning.
hey ew0k
How's life?
suffering
(so, not bad)
hah see meanwhile I emotionally vomited into gemspace earlier so like...
left_adjoint: I've lined your posts up in my AV-98 tour :)
epoch: SSDD?
?
same shit, different day :)
meh, different shit, but still shit
oh I should use av-98 for its tours. I mostly read on my phone or with lagrange
equivalence classes of shit
going at like, 2% reading speed because I get distracted in the middle of these paragraph-length sentences.
and going back and re-reading.
I tried reading Gormenghast once. THAT is a practice in paragraph-length sentences. In 1940s English. With more or less poetic descriptions
I don't actually know what that is!
An old fantasy trilogy about a giant castle and what goes on within
the characters are amazingly quirky
I remember an early scene where the princess calls a servant up to her room and badgers him about the clouds she can see from her window. "It's seven. Seven clouds! What does it mean!? You must tell me what it means!"
Ah rebellious kitchen aid with the name Steerpike, and an old grey crone who's the right hand of the king named Sepulchre
good morning geminauts
why don't we create a #web chan? I can't commit to moderate it, but if someone does, I'll happily join it.
afr: That's a great idea! You should do that, and it'll give me an excuse to /ignore a whole channel. ;)
did you read the article on Medium? it sums it up nicely
originally "web 3.0" meant the semantic web, and then a bunch of assholes came and tried to lock in people in append-only shared databases with a centralized state
and this is called "the blockchain"
for example blockchains don't communicate with each other so if you're publishing on the mirror blockchain, you'd need to build your audience from scratch on another blockchain
anyway, this is heavy talk and I don't know why I've started it
afr: I haven't seen it, no. I should get to bed, though!
email?
I'll send you the link
(like, tilde email)
maybe /query me
(since the logs are published on Gemini)
anyway, https://medium.com/@rossstalker_5939/web3-is-not-decentralisation-its-a-ploy-to-put-crypto-bros-in-charge-c791752e2bb6
afr: I posted that one here.
oh
I hadn't read that piece but I've been ranting similarly at people like a mad prophet this year: do you want microtransactions in everyday life? This is how you get them!
Gemini and to some extent IRC are amazing for slacking off because they're non-interactive so you actually feel you're slacking off
on social media you're constantly sollicited so you live with the impression that you're doing something important
you aren't, you're slacking off
using Gemini helps me to put this into perspective and think, "well, maybe I should start working now"
you know these text/x-ansi pages.. are they really text/gemini+x-ansi .. or text/gemini.x-ansi ?
i.e. are they parsed and displayed like gemtext except they also contain terminal escape codes
Seek: I have no idea
i was trying out page title parsing for Amfora.. grabbing the text of the first '#' heading
and was like 'alright, we cant do that for plain text / other.. what about ansi? is ansi really gemtext plus ansi?'
Why not make the mimetype something like `text/gemtext;encoding=ansi`
because it can be encoded in utf8
i haven't seen a page with a text/x-ansi mimetype. weird.
noodlez: because "ansi" can be anything.
^
Wikipedia "ANSI character set" begins: The phrase ANSI character set has no well-defined meaning and has been used to refer to the following, among other things:
hehe
yeah, saying text is ANSI is like saying this text is defined in 8-bit bytes... meaningless
by ANSI we really mean https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANSI_escape_code
Seek's link to 'https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANSI_escape_code'
aka ECMA-48. aka VT-100 escape codes. aka xterm sequences
including / focused around the subset implemented by DOS ansi.sys in the BBS days
well, DOS on the IBM PC... the subset is a wacky IBM-PC-specific set, more tied to its hardware than MS-DOS or PC-DOS
Okay I see. This is why mimetypes are dumb.
mimetypes are great! when you start making up rando mimetypes, though...
no, it's why *that* mime type is dumb.
http://fileformats.archiveteam.org/wiki/ANSI_Art
Seek's link to 'http://fileformats.archiveteam.org/wiki/ANSI_Art'
Well, I get the argument, but in reality, if there are all these different variations, you'd either need to standardize exactly which subset of escape codes you'll be using, or put it in the mimetype. Perhaps in a parameter?
"As far as we know, there is no formal specification of ANSI Art format"
I figure a mime-type that contains the terminal it was intended for would be more accurate
or people could stop putting "ANSI Art" on gemini pages. that's probably an unpopular opinion.
like, text/tty; TERM=vt220
I meant in general
not "in" gemini pages, just if anything that used mime-types wanted to use them for stuff meant to be shown in terminals
`text/gemtext+tty;term=xterm`
noodlez: i think what clients are doing now on Gemini is "ansi means raw output to the user's terminal", and what authors are doing is "use simple xterm color sequences, with occasional reproduction of old skool ascii 'ANSI art', whatever the fuck it is"
Perhaps, because you can still serve other types of text along with it.
fwiw "raw output to the user's terminal" is powerful, cool, and potentially concerning
text/gemini+tty should be a separate spec
So you'd use a suffix along with it?
text/gemini+tty 👍
i don't think any of this is really a problem outside this tiny world of gemini...
rendering it in GUI clients would be challenging
what does lynx do with terminal escape sequences?
(or w3m, or elinks, or whatever forks people use)
I figure they filter them out
Leave it to the gemini community to find out how to stretch some technology or spec
hmmm "stretch some technology" != using mimetypes incorrectly
oh well.
"incorrectly"
is using "text/gemini" is incorrectly because it isn't registered?
derped that sentence up.
I'm jsut gonna stop.
> what does lynx do with terminal escape sequences?
just tested. with content-type text/plain, or text/html, it escapes them
with text/ansi, it says something like "this might be a binary file. view anyway?". when you do, it's escaped
we probably need some ANSI bombs in gemini-space?
When is ansi gonna be turing complete?
noodlez: what you need to do is find *one* encoding or terminal escape that could be turing complete. when you do... boom! ansi is turing complete.
True
Calling it. With 0 reseaech or anything, it's prob xterm-256color
uhh
there's a way to send images over terminal escape code
noodlez: i'd look at the various extensions, honestly, such as yeah... that images stuff.
there's more than sixel support.
not just pixels, but just base64 encoded image files
and I think jpeg2000 is turing complete?
or maybe a few other image file formats
sixels wouldn't be
pdf is turing complete i think? don't think there's pdf support in these escapes though.
you can do javascript in pdf, so it isn't even weird to do
that's relatively recent.
jpegxl* not jpeg2000 I guess
You can what?
https://dbohdan.com/wiki/jpeg-xl
epoch's link to 'https://dbohdan.com/wiki/jpeg-xl'
Do JS?
noodlez: in pdf today? yes.
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/9219807/documentation-for-using-javascript-code-inside-a-pdf-file
svg+js too ofc
btw, if we're suggesting new types of mime types, I'd have a use for text/irc (with maybe a few quirk flags) for text that contains IRC color/bold/etc codes in them
:P
:)
irc codes were made up, rather than fished out of 'ansi', for mIRC, right?
btw, someone should make a wayback machine for gemini
yeah, irc codes are a lot different than "ansi" codes
color
color
color
this channel has +S
which strips formatting / colors
as God intended
pff
oh well. it shows pretty for me. :)
inb4 someone streams mime/multipart from gemini to do a discord-like chat that can contain inline images and whatever else :>
I guess that might be me.
the more cursed something is the more fun it is to make
FreeBASIC kernel
cursed
QuickBASIC kernel.
Can QuickBASIC be compiled down to freestanding?
Visual Basic .NET kernel
You can actually do that one
https://www.gocosmos.org/
noodlez's link to 'https://www.gocosmos.org/'
please no!
I have used it before. It's more an SDK to run .NET code on bare metal more than an OS development kit
noodlez: And yes, it can.
noodlez: By default, I think. QBASIC was interpreted, QuickBASIC was compiled, I think. You have DOS-era memory limits, though, which could mean there is just a single page.
Have to manually use various extensions to access more than your page.
noodlez: so like what nerves is for Erlang.
so i finally tried Lagrange and.. yeah, it really is beautiful :)
but you all knew that already!
some serious work to make an app that polished and nice looking :-)
Lagrange is very aesthetic although amfora still has my heart
left_adjoint: Amfora is my favorite too. The Tokyo Night color theme looks really good.
i was setting up my own tilde thingy but i dont wanna buy a new domain so i was using tor but uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
how do i configure my client to use :9050
will it even use that for DNS lookup
you can use something like proxychains, or do a transparent proxy setup.
or torsocks, or tsocks
I know there's one that isn't used anymore, but I don't remember which one.
I use a transparent proxy so I don't have to do per-program proxying
https://gitlab.torproject.org/legacy/trac/-/wikis/doc/TransparentProxy
epoch's link to 'https://gitlab.torproject.org/legacy/trac/-/wikis/doc/TransparentProxy'
there might be a gemini client with socks proxy support...
/I/ could setup a tor in-proxy over gemini I guess
thx for this i'll try the transparent proxy
but you were talking about being a hidden service
right?
yeah i dont wanna have to buy a domain for something i'll delete in 30 days
although tor is fun
https://freedns.afraid.org/ gives out subdomains for free
epoch's link to 'https://freedns.afraid.org/'
deadass
i love you
<3
thank you
I've had an account freedns.afraid.org for at least... like, 13 years now
and they go down less than facebook afair
I gotta go to bed now though. :/
g'night. have fun. :)
gemini://skyjake.fi/gemlog/2021-11_ansi-sgr.gmi
Seek's link to 'gemini://skyjake.fi/gemlog/2021-11_ansi-sgr.gmi'
gemini://haiku.cafe
Seek's link to 'gemini://haiku.cafe'
huh. gardengnome.ml is down
But I run my gemlog, Antenna, and Wobbly on the same server. warmedal.se still works
Maybe the freenom DNS is broken or something
they have two different IPs
Hahahaha! It's not the DNS. Apparently I failed to renew the domain XD
I was sure I'd done it
haha!
oh, well
been there
I was planning to move it to warmedal.se/~gardengnome/ anyway, once I've transitioned to my new server. And right now the main feature of the capsule is incorporated in AstroBotany itself. It's really been redundant for a few months
diversity + redundancy is cool
:D
I made the capsule because I wanted the functionality. It turned out a lot of others wanted it too. Eventually I made a PR to AstroBotany to include it there, because then the data could be real time instead of harvested four times a day
gardengnome is a cool moniker
even if it just serves some ascii art, i hope it lives on
I have plans to remake it :) It's going to live on, and become relevant again.
a few weeks back someone posted a log entry about trying out different gemini alternatives and overlay networks. some of them allowed servers to be offline and the content is mirrored somewhere. anyone remember who wrote that piece?
think it was on anteanna
was it something like ploum's offmini thing?
nope, that was about downloading stuff
i think it was about some other overlay network that is currently in alpha
i remembered it again ... ipfs
maria: Have you actually used ipfs?
Arahael: no i haven't. ever. but i wanted to look at the tech underneath. most of these overlays are so complicated it's ridiculous. zeronet uses cryptowallets and tor and whatnot. it's insane
maria: Right, and what I was wondering about is how much of the blockchain - which I assume they're using - is required to be downloaded. That's not exactly light, disconnected internet use.
I've been looking at Oculus Quest, it's... Interesting. Actually tempted to get into it.
Arahael, maria: have you tried/read about cjdns?
ew0k: I'm blushing over here. (*^-^*)
I'm a day late noticing because I don't read posts until the day after as part of my daily digest on my PDA :-)
ew0k: Oh I just noticed that the fourth link in your post is missing the g at the beginning of gemini.
i didnt thoroughly read the chat above but IPFS does not use blockchain
its basically just bittorrent 2
except there are no trackers and you're forced to seed what you download
also, everything is identified by a CID (content identifier) rather than a long ass magnet URI
the "official" ipfs software (ipfs-go) is kind of buggy sometimes but i believe it has potential
owocean: yep, I think they were referring to Zeronet
...i dont think zeronet uses blockchain either
it uses bitcoin cryptography for publishing content, (public-key signing and content addressing)
but thats it
doesnt actually talk to the bitcoin network
uses bittorrent for storing content
i hate that i cant edit my messages here. when i said "public key signing" i meant public-key cryptography signing, which uses the secret key
owocean: ah I see
I'm currently doing the Tutorials from Protocol Labs
ProtoSchool
magnets are basically a CID (urn:btih:[hash]) but also include a description and trackers
the long part of magnets are the trackers
kel: your pda adventures seem really cool. I was talking with an old friend recently about whether we could take an original motorola droid, the kind with the slideout keyboard, and put some terminal only linux on it as a kind of pda
left_adjoint: Good idea! I miss devices having physical keyboards.
I don't know off the top of my head which devices it supports but postmarketOS might be an options?
Yeah that seemed like the best place to start
maybe just boot it straight to the terminal, no window manager. it's a massively underpowered device but man it could probably handle that just fine
Definitely.
I think a cool and useful, extremely low-resource PDA interface is possible by tying some terminal apps together.
There's terminal apps for just about anything you'd want a PDA to do.
Calendars, contacts, notes, spreadsheets even.
right‽ even epub readers
yep
What I think would be cool is some way of tying all these things together. A launcher or something that gives you a visually consistent way to launch apps.
Of course someone with the right skills and motivation could just write a suite of apps designed to be consistent and function like a PDA specfically for the terminal.
I don't know that there's enough interest in this idea for that to happen though, haha.
Too much to code and too little time
is ed25519 still unsupported in some clients?
or can i use it
kel: fixed the link! :D Thanks for noticing
kel: And you and your gemlog deserve the attention!
hyperreal: i think cjdns does something else. it looks to me more like a routing overlay
Arahael: from what i can gather, ipfs is loosely based on libp2p, which doesn't blockchain
Seek: most clients rely on system libraries for TLS, so it's more often a matter of the user's system age, i guess?
i like the idea of the stupidest devices being able to do gemini, so i'm not using edxxxxx but i understand the appeal!