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peteyboy at sdf.org peteyboy at sdf.org
Sun Jul 5 18:58:02 BST 2020
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Did I miss the mention in this group?https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23730408
I saw lot of idle "concern" about viability and bike shedding, some actual interest.
Participated a little myself...
On July 4, 2020 4:01:43 PM PDT, gemini-request at lists.orbitalfox.eu wrote:
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Ditching mandatory TLS (Sean Conner)
2. Re: Ditching mandatory TLS (solderpunk)
3. Re: URL/META length (solderpunk)
4. Re: Ditching mandatory TLS (Sean Conner)
5. Re: Ditching mandatory TLS (solderpunk)
6. Re: URL/META length (Phil Leblanc)
7. Re: URL/META length (solderpunk)
8. =?utf-8?Q?What=E2=80=99s_?=considered proxying in Gemini?
(traderbeckola at tahoma.com)
9. Re: What?s considered proxying in Gemini? (solderpunk)
10. Re: =?utf-8?Q?What=E2=80=99s_?=considered proxying in Gemini?
(traderbeckola at tahoma.com)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2020 17:12:17 -0400
From: Sean Conner <sean at conman.org>
To: Gemini application layer protocol <gemini at lists.orbitalfox.eu>
Subject: Re: Ditching mandatory TLS
Message-ID: <20200704211217.GT19717 at brevard.conman.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
It was thus said that the Great Drew DeVault once stated:
Unpopular opinion time: Gemini should not have mandatory TLS.
- TLS is not conveinent for local development
- TLS is inherently dependent on a centralized oligarchy of CAs
- Baking TLS into the protocol is going to be a bad look when The
Next
TLS comes out
- Some alternative modes of internet access have built-in encryption
guarantees: yggdrasil, cjdns, Tor; and for these adding TLS is
redundant (and arguably worse)
I won't argue that TLS is a bad choice, but before throwing out
alternatives like yggdrasil, cjdns or noise, instead *just implement
the
damn thing* [1][2]---write both a Gemini server and client (for bonus
points---implement ALL THE ENCRYPTIONS!) so the rest of us can see how
easy
it is, and *then* we can have an actual discussion about transitioning
away
from TLS (or including other mechanisms).
This has already been done once:
https://lists.orbitalfox.eu/archives/gemini/2020/000457.html
and the follow-up:
#### About my previous proposal
I'll have to think harder about it (within my limited cryptographic
expertise), and perhaps submit it to a cryptographers community for
feedback.
At the moment I can see only a minor privacy flaw in it: the client
discloses its identity (and proof of identity) to any server;
instead
it should first wait for the server to disclose its identity (and
proof of identity) before proceeding.
This issue stems from the fact that the ransport_prepare function
is "symmetrical" and tries to reduce network round-trips; instead
the
client could first wait for the server verifier and then send its own
(i.e. just a minor change to that function).
(https://lists.orbitalfox.eu/archives/gemini/2020/000477.html)
-spc (Note: not much from Ciprian since then ... )
[1] I disagreed with solderpunk about the status codes when he first
proposed Gemini. In stead of hashing it out over months, I just
went ahead and wrote a Gemini server with the status codes I thought
it should have. We then spent a few months hashing it out, but at
least there was an implementation (or two by the time the discussion
came to an end) backing up the argument(s).
[2] This applies to anyone, not just Drew.
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2020 21:24:03 +0000
From: solderpunk <solderpunk at SDF.ORG>
To: Gemini application layer protocol <gemini at lists.orbitalfox.eu>
Subject: Re: Ditching mandatory TLS
Message-ID: <20200704212403.GC5368 at SDF.ORG>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
On Sat, Jul 04, 2020 at 05:12:17PM -0400, Sean Conner wrote:
I won't argue that TLS is a bad choice, but before throwing out
alternatives like yggdrasil, cjdns or noise, instead *just implement
the
damn thing* [1][2]---write both a Gemini server and client (for bonus
points---implement ALL THE ENCRYPTIONS!) so the rest of us can see
how easy
it is, and *then* we can have an actual discussion about
transitioning away
from TLS (or including other mechanisms).
I don't really know much about cjdns or noise, but Yggdrasil just looks
like an ordinary IPv6 tunnel and requires nothing special from
software.
There is actually already at least one Gemini server on the public
Yggdrasil network. The admin is also an AV-98 user and I assume he's
using it without any modification. I plan to experiment with this
myself, someday...
Cheers,
Solderpunk
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2020 21:33:46 +0000
From: solderpunk <solderpunk at SDF.ORG>
To: Gemini application layer protocol <gemini at lists.orbitalfox.eu>
Subject: Re: URL/META length
Message-ID: <20200704213346.GD5368 at SDF.ORG>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
On Sat, Jul 04, 2020 at 07:17:37PM +0000, Phil Leblanc wrote:
Can we solve a lot of these issues by bumping up our maximum URL
length?
I suggest bumping the URL maximum length to 8KB.
- it allows creative uses of _mechanisms already in place_ in Gemini,
- it doesn't change the definition of the protocol and protocol
elements,
- it doesn't impact existing clients,
- the impact on existing servers is very limited (allocating a 8K
instead of 1K buffer...), and an existing server should just refuse
too long a request.
- 8K vs 1K doesn't make a difference for a client today in terms of
RAM footprint - after all, let's not forget that TLS is mandatory
here
;-)
I'm still open to something like this. And for the record, I still
think the idea of "uploading by hosting" and passing the URL used for
that in response to a status code 10 is too beautiful not to explore,
if
we really, really need to be able to upload in band. I get that not
everybody can host publically, but this could be worked around in
various ways: pubnixes could offer this facility to their users.
Somebody could setup a lightweight public web upload point which
then rehosted the resource one a one-use Gemini URL - Sloum has already
demonstrated with gemlog.blue how this kind of thing can work.
Cheers,
Solderpunk
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2020 17:56:19 -0400
From: Sean Conner <sean at conman.org>
To: Gemini application layer protocol <gemini at lists.orbitalfox.eu>
Subject: Re: Ditching mandatory TLS
Message-ID: <20200704215618.GU19717 at brevard.conman.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
It was thus said that the Great solderpunk once stated:
On Sat, Jul 04, 2020 at 05:12:17PM -0400, Sean Conner wrote:
I won't argue that TLS is a bad choice, but before throwing out
alternatives like yggdrasil, cjdns or noise, instead *just
implement the
damn thing* [1][2]---write both a Gemini server and client (for
bonus
points---implement ALL THE ENCRYPTIONS!) so the rest of us can see
how easy
it is, and *then* we can have an actual discussion about
transitioning away
from TLS (or including other mechanisms).
I don't really know much about cjdns or noise, but Yggdrasil just
looks
like an ordinary IPv6 tunnel and requires nothing special from
software.
If that's the case for Yggdrasil, then you are *still* using TLS over
it
(and it's not a replacement for TLS).
-spc
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2020 21:59:44 +0000
From: solderpunk <solderpunk at SDF.ORG>
To: Gemini application layer protocol <gemini at lists.orbitalfox.eu>
Subject: Re: Ditching mandatory TLS
Message-ID: <20200704215944.GG5368 at SDF.ORG>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
On Sat, Jul 04, 2020 at 05:56:19PM -0400, Sean Conner wrote:
I don't really know much about cjdns or noise, but Yggdrasil just
looks
like an ordinary IPv6 tunnel and requires nothing special from
software.
If that's the case for Yggdrasil, then you are *still* using TLS
over it
(and it's not a replacement for TLS).
You're right, it's not a replacement - running Gemini without TLS over
Yggdrasil would break any client certificate apps. No alternative is
going to keep those working. TLS is baked in pretty deep.
Cheers,
Solderpunk
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2020 21:59:23 +0000
From: Phil Leblanc <philanc at gmail.com>
To: Gemini application layer protocol <gemini at lists.orbitalfox.eu>
Subject: Re: URL/META length
Message-ID:
<CAOH6EB_GDzfkMcn8zssLmmuAneYSPFxg7DNZma+Xvd7ifgXAGg at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
On Sat, Jul 4, 2020 at 9:33 PM solderpunk <solderpunk at sdf.org> wrote:
Can we solve a lot of these issues by bumping up our maximum URL
length?
I'm still open to something like this. And for the record, I still
think the idea of "uploading by hosting" and passing the URL used for
that in response to a status code 10 is too beautiful not to explore,
if
we really, really need to be able to upload in band.
A longer URL doesn't prevent at all exploring / implementing the
uploading by hosting approach. It only addresses some use cases where
the existing input mechanism can be used as-is (e.g. comments, small
document updates).
I think it could also be useful for simple gemini applications,
typically the applications "by me, for me" you describe here
=
gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/users/solderpunk/cornedbeef/a-vision-for-gemini-applications.gmi
It is _not_ a modification in any way of the Gemini protocol - Just a
different size limit.
Phil
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2020 22:14:37 +0000
From: solderpunk <solderpunk at SDF.ORG>
To: Gemini application layer protocol <gemini at lists.orbitalfox.eu>
Subject: Re: URL/META length
Message-ID: <20200704221437.GH5368 at SDF.ORG>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
On Sat, Jul 04, 2020 at 09:59:23PM +0000, Phil Leblanc wrote:
On Sat, Jul 4, 2020 at 9:33 PM solderpunk <solderpunk at sdf.org> wrote:
A longer URL doesn't prevent at all exploring / implementing the
uploading by hosting approach. It only addresses some use cases where
the existing input mechanism can be used as-is (e.g. comments, small
document updates).
It is _not_ a modification in any way of the Gemini protocol - Just a
different size limit.
Sure, I get all that, didn't mean to imply otherwise.
Just doing "my thing" of urging people to think hard about and perhaps
even actually implement and test solutions to problems which don't
involve extension/modification in preference to those which do...
Cheers,
Solderpunk
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2020 18:33:58 -0400
From: traderbeckola at tahoma.com
To: gemini at lists.orbitalfox.eu
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?What=E2=80=99s_?=considered proxying in Gemini?
Message-ID: <39802f4e-8f27-4474-a406-ee782a60df55 at Spark>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
I?m experimenting with setting up a Gemini server (molly brown in this
case) on my LAN. It is on a different network segment than my desktop
(client, trying out Kristall and elpher). When I try to connect to the
server, I get a message ?you tried to request a resource from one host
that is actually located on another host.... No proxying to other hosts
or ports.? The message is similar from the various clients and in the
server?s log file.
Not sure why I?m getting this. Running on port 1965, no port forwarding
arrangement. There is a firewall between the two network segments.
Thanks!
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Message: 9
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2020 22:37:16 +0000
From: solderpunk <solderpunk at SDF.ORG>
To: Gemini application layer protocol <gemini at lists.orbitalfox.eu>
Subject: Re: What?s considered proxying in Gemini?
Message-ID: <20200704223716.GK5368 at SDF.ORG>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
On Sat, Jul 04, 2020 at 06:33:58PM -0400, traderbeckola at tahoma.com
wrote:
I?m experimenting with setting up a Gemini server (molly brown in
this case) on my LAN. It is on a different network segment than my
desktop (client, trying out Kristall and elpher). When I try to connect
to the server, I get a message ?you tried to request a resource from
one host that is actually located on another host.... No proxying to
other hosts or ports.? The message is similar from the various clients
and in the server?s log file.
Not sure why I?m getting this. Running on port 1965, no port
forwarding arrangement. There is a firewall between the two network
segments.
Thanks!
What's the value of `Hostname` in your Molly Brown configuration, and
is
that the hostname with which you are trying to access the server?
Cheers,
Solderpunk
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2020 19:01:24 -0400
From: traderbeckola at tahoma.com
To: Gemini application layer protocol <gemini at lists.orbitalfox.eu>
Subject: Re: =?utf-8?Q?What=E2=80=99s_?=considered proxying in Gemini?
Message-ID: <3d72f875-d512-4f8c-845e-dad393e89476 at Spark>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Yes. Just checked to make sure the hostname is harmonized across
molly.conf, hostname on the server system, and the hostname the
dns/dhcp server assigns it.
On Jul 4, 2020, 18:38 -0400, solderpunk <solderpunk at SDF.ORG>, wrote:
On Sat, Jul 04, 2020 at 06:33:58PM -0400, traderbeckola at tahoma.com
wrote:
I?m experimenting with setting up a Gemini server (molly brown in
this case) on my LAN. It is on a different network segment than my
desktop (client, trying out Kristall and elpher). When I try to connect
to the server, I get a message ?you tried to request a resource from
one host that is actually located on another host.... No proxying to
other hosts or ports.? The message is similar from the various clients
and in the server?s log file.
Not sure why I?m getting this. Running on port 1965, no port
forwarding arrangement. There is a firewall between the two network
segments.
Thanks!
What's the value of `Hostname` in your Molly Brown configuration, and
is
that the hostname with which you are trying to access the server?
Cheers,
Solderpunk
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