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APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
April 18, 1989 10:00 p.m. eastern time
Topic: Apple II Operating Systems
Forum Leader: Dave Sugar (AFL Dyfet)
AFL Dyfet Good evening and welcome to the tuesday night Apple
AFL Dyfet Development Forum chat. Tonight's topic is Operating
AFL Dyfet Systems (there's the worm!). We WILL be using PROTOCOL starting
AFL Dyfet now. This means that if you wish to ask a question, you
AFL Dyfet must enter a '?' on a line by itself, and if you wish to comment
AFL Dyfet on the question being asked, you must enter a '!' on
AFL Dyfet a line by itself. I will call you each in turn to speak.
AFL Dyfet I believe the first question is technically from Gibber...could
you repeat
AFL Dyfet it again?
DTS Folks !
THE GIBBER What is an error 27 in GSOs.... I have had 3 weeks straight of
coming home to
THE GIBBER my cozy 140 meg hard drive and it will not boot :(
THE GIBBER I have reinstalled the system 4 times..
AFA Gary J Q = GIBBER (DTS Folks)
AFL Dyfet GA Dave and MAtt...
DTS Folks $27 (hex) is I/O error - it means the hardware said it can't read
or write to the drive reliably. GA.
Coach101 ?
THE GIBBER What do you suggest that I do.....??????
THE GIBBER ga
AFA Parik !
AFL Dyfet I would suggest a low level reformat myself...GA Parik...
DTS Folks Many hard drives or other utilities (such as Glen Bredon's
MR.FIXIT) will go through a volume and...
AFA Parik 1) Check all connections to make sure they're seated correctly,
etc. 2) Run
AFA Parik Mr Fixit and Bag Of Tricks through it, it most likely won't work.
3) Low-level
DTS Folks ...get rid of as many bad blocks as they can, marking them as used
so they don't cause problems.
AFA Parik and then high-level format the drive, backing up all data
beforehand. Fun! :)
AFA Parik ga
DTS Folks (this might help. GA [sorry for the delay])
AFA Gary J Q = Gibber, Coach
AFL Dyfet Okay. I believe our next question is from coach...GA Coach.
Coach101 The Print manager has printer drivers and port drivers. GSOS
has
Windrider5 ?
Coach101 device drivers. What are the relationships between them
(especially
Coach101 between print manager port drivers and GSOS drivers) and isnt
this
Coach101 a little duplication? GA
DTS Folks !
AFA Gary J Q = Coach (DTS Folks), Windrider
AFL Dyfet I knew one of you would go for this one! Go ahead D & M :)
DTS Folks It's only duplication if you think the system is more
interconnected than it really is.
DTS Folks As explained in IIgs TN #35 and #36, Printer and Port drivers in
the Print Manager are used to...
DTS Folks ...enable the PM to send generic commands and allow the drivers to
do the hardware specific stuff.
DTS Folks For example, the Print Manager would tell a driver to print a
pixel map. The ImageWriter driver would
DTS Folks actually do the translating into printer codes. It would then
call the Printer Port driver to send
DTS Folks those codes out the Printer Port at the hardware level.
DTS Folks A GS/OS driver is code that allows a piece of hardware to accept
and respond to GS/OS calls.
DTS Folks A Print Manager port driver could, for example, call a GS/OS
Character Driver for a given port to
DTS Folks do the dirty work; this is just fine. But a GS/OS driver wouldn't
call a Print Manager driver.
DTS Folks (Confusing still or makes more sense? GA)
AFA Gary J Q = Coach (DTS Folks), Windrider
Coach101 Right.... My confusion was what looked like a duplication between
the
Coach101 port driver and GSOS driver. I hate to see two entities tasked
with
Coach101 the same job (interface to the hardware). Why couldn't the
print
Coach101 driver make a GSOS call to get to the appropriate _hardware_
driver. Then
Coach101 once I installed a GSOS driver for a specific piece of hardware it
would
Coach101 (maybe, hopefully) be available to everyone. GA
DTS Folks !
AFL Dyfet Oops...! I got bumped! GA Matt and Dave
DTS Folks 1) The Print Manager was designed first
AFA Gary J Q = Coach (DTS Folks), Windrider
DTS Folks 2) The port drivers fulfill functions not implemented by GS/OS,
such as...
JohnSchapp Why is it that GS/OS still, as yet, is not AppleShare
compatible?
JohnSchapp Yet Apple is developing a genlock card?
JohnSchapp Shouldn't they put emphasis where they need it?
AFA Gary J Q = Coach (DTS Folks), Windrider, JohnSchapp
DTS Folks "Is it safe to print" and asynchronous reading and writing. A
port driver could call a GS/OS driver
AFL Dyfet We are in protocol, John. Your question has been recorded, and
will be
AFL Dyfet gotten to in turn...
JohnSchapp Like focusing on their new operating system?
DTS Folks to do those things that a GS/OS driver can do better (reading,
writing, etc. synchronously), but
DTS Folks there are still hardware-depending printing-dependent functions
the port driver will
DTS Folks have to fulfill that the GS/OS drivers don't include. GA.
Coach101 OK.... Thanks for the information.... I was looking at print
Coach101 spooling and the extra level of drivers, means extra levels of
Coach101 _spooling_ drivers. Thanks for the time... GA
AFL Dyfet Any more comments on this question?
AFL Dyfet Okay, that did clear up some confusion in my mind as well...I
believe the
AFL Dyfet next question is from Windrider...GA Windrider.
Windrider5 Could someone explain high level and low level formats
(initializations)? GA
Jump Long !
AFA Gary J Q = Windrider (Jump Long), JohnSchapp
AFL Dyfet Go Ahead, Jim.
Jump Long A low level format writes the actual tracks and sectors on a disk.
A high level
Jump Long format writes the volume structure (directories, bit-maps, etc.)
on the
Jump Long disk. ga
Windrider5 how is this preformed?
Jump Long Which one?
Windrider5 both
AFL Dyfet The GS/OS format (and most other formatters) do both for floppy
drives at the
AFL Dyfet same time. Harddisks are normally only high level formatted. The
high level
AFL Dyfet format simply writes out the volume directory and bitmap through
standard
AFL Dyfet block write calls. Low level formats are very hardware specific
and require
AFA Gary J Q = Windrider (Dyfet), JohnSchapp
AFL Dyfet utilities seperate from what is supplied with ProDOS. Anyone else
wish to
AFL Dyfet comment here?
JonL7 WHAT IS INTERLEAVE FACTOR ON A HARDDRIVE
AFL Dyfet Interleave has to do with how the blocks are numbered on a
cylinder on the
AFL Dyfet disk. Normally two consequtive blocks are not put next to each
other, but
AFL Dyfet instead are placed a few blocks apart with intervening blocks
numbered
AFL Dyfet differently so that the disk driver has enough time to process the
current
AFL Dyfet block it is reading before it encounters the next one. If they
were right
AFA Gary J Q = Windrider (Dyfet), JohnSchapp
AFL Dyfet next to each other, the drive would have to complete a whole
rotation before
AFL Dyfet it was ready to read the next block in a sequential read...
AFL Dyfet (my CP/M heritage shows there a little :)...did that help?
AFA Gary J !
AFL Dyfet GA Gary.
AFA Gary J I just wanted to add that interleave is not just used on hard
drives, but on
AFA Gary J almose all forms of disk drives. The speed increase that can
come from the
Coach101 !
JonL7 Yes so chosing the right number could speed the disk read process
considerably
AFA Gary J proper interleave setting has recently been illustrated on the
3.5 drive and
AFA Gary J GS/OS's 2:1 interleave.
AFA Gary J GA
AFL Dyfet GA Coach.
AFA Gary J Yes
JonL7 Thanks :)
Coach101 The premiere issue of APDALog (from Apple) contains an excellent
Coach101 write up on the theory behind interleaving complete with some
Coach101 concrete examples of the benefits that can be derived from it. If
you
DTS Folks (complete with some diagrams bearing numbers that aren't exactly
related to the text...)
Coach101 do not have a firm handle on interleaving I suggest you read
Matt's
AFA Gary J Q = Windrider (Coach), JohnSchapp
Coach101 dissertation in APDALog. GA
DTS Folks (I can say that because I wrote the article, and it's MUCH easier
to blame it on APDA. GA)
JonL7 Ok
AFL Dyfet Okay, thank you coach...Any other comments?
AFL Dyfet I believe our next question is from John Shapp. GA John.
AFA Gary J Q = JohnSchapp
JohnSchapp How come GS/OS still does not work with AppleShare
DTS Folks !
JohnSchapp yet Apple is working on developing a genlock card and not
concentrating
JohnSchapp their efforts.
AFL Dyfet GA Matt and Dave...
JohnSchapp GS/OS is almost a year old now.
JohnSchapp well not really, but it's not new.
DTS Folks If one takes the rather simplistic approach that Apple is only
capable of working on one project at
DTS Folks a time, you should expect the next System Disk update sometime
around 1998.
JohnSchapp About the same time a new Apple II is introduced?
DTS Folks Reality shows that Apple works on multiple projects at a given
time. While I can't comment on...
JohnSchapp While five Mac's buzz by.
AFA Gary J Q = JohnSchapp (DTS Folks)
DTS Folks specific things like when AppleShare compatibility will come to
GS/OS, I can say that it's very
DTS Folks important to us to do that. GA.
JohnSchapp What about new improvements to GS/OS, like more FSTS?
DTS Folks Same story. GA.
JohnSchapp The Apple 3.5 drive can read Mac disks, why is there no FST out
already for it?
Jump Long You know we can't comment on unreleased products... (I had to say
that)
DTS Folks (I already did)_
JohnSchapp Yes, but how long does it take to make an unreleased product?
JohnSchapp We know that GS/OS took two years.
AFL Dyfet Quite a long time for something as complex as an os...:)
DTS Folks The kinds of engineering efforts into good system software
revisions are not trivial.
AFL SandyB LOL John, that's a leading question...
Jump Long (but I've never had the chance, Matt)
Jump Long :)
AFA Gary J Q = JohnSchapp
DTS Folks GS/OS didn't come out until two years after the IIgs, but the IIgs
was introduced with ProDOS 16.
AFL TimB !
AFL Dyfet GA Tim.
AFL TimB I thought you'd all be interested to hear of a 'new' operating
system that...
AFL TimB came on a program that I just received from Electronic Arts....
;)
JohnSchapp !
AFA Gary J Q = JohnSchapp (Tim)
AFL TimB Apple DOS 4.0!!! :) On Instant Synthesizer!
AFL TracyP !
AFL Dyfet Hmm...GA John...
AFL TimB Maybe someone should tell them!
JohnSchapp As a matter of fact AppleLink is shipped with System Disk 3.2 in
order to
DaviesDoug !
JohnSchapp remain AppleShare compatible.
Coach101 !
AFA Gary J Q = John (Tracy, Doug, Coach)
AFL Dyfet Okay. GA Tracy.
DaviesDoug Electronics Arts are too big of babies to program in gsos/p16,
they use p8....
DaviesDoug all the time
AFL TracyP John, I think what the DTS folks are trying to say is that
DaviesDoug .
AFL TracyP yes, they are aware of some of the things that need to be done
AFL TracyP in the area of AppleShare awareness, FSTs, etc.
JohnSchapp !
AFL TracyP The problem is they can't say what things they're working on,
AFL TracyP what stage of development they're in, or even =if= any given
AFL TracyP product is in development or not! <ga>
JohnSchapp I was aware of that but I was a little mad about how the Mac has
priority at
AFL Dyfet I'm sure they are hard at work on it...GA Doug...
JohnSchapp DTS
Jump Long But we can answer questions on current products :)
DaviesDoug I did
DTS Folks The Mac doesn't have priority in Apple II DTS. This I can
guarantee you.
AFA Gary J Q = John (Coach)
AFA Gary J :)
JohnSchapp Well it sure did have the spotlight in the latest issue of
AppleDirect.
AFL Dyfet Oh yes :)...*crack* don't let a protocol slip happen again :) GA
Coach...
Coach101 With regard to AppleLink and system disk 3.2 and AppleShare.....
Coach101 I would not suggest having AppleTalk turned on when you are
AFA Parik !
Coach101 using AppleLink.... If anyone does anything on AppleTalk.....
DTS Folks So complain to the AppleDirect folks. They're NOT DTS, and they
are interested in your comments.
Coach101 You Die.... And, Quantum says... oh, so sorry.... and
Coach101 Apple says.... AppleLink is more Quantum than Apple....
and....
Coach101 you are stuck.... ga
AFA Parik AppleLink is shipping with Sys Disk v3.2 because GS/OS + AppleLink
eats up more
AFA Parik than 512k. ga
AFL Dyfet I believe John has the next comment...GA John...
AFA Gary J Q = John
JohnSchapp Well I can't really remember except, what real purpose is there
in
AFL Dyfet Q = John, Parik
JohnSchapp spending engineering effort on a genlock card that is going to be
used
DaviesDoug ?
JohnSchapp not too often in practical applications?
Jump Long !
JohnSchapp Go.
AFL Dyfet GA Jim...
AFA Gary J Q = John (Jim), Doug
Jump Long It depends what you classify as practical. Many Educators have
been asking for
AFL TimB !!!
Jump Long this kind of capability for a long time. There are a lot of fun
things you
JohnSchapp Yes but many educators have also asked for a card to make the
Apple II a
Jump Long could go with it a home, too.
Jump Long ga
JohnSchapp file-server. I work at a school as the Computer Teacher, I know.
Jump Long go = do
AFL Dyfet I don't think anyone here can even guess at, let alone speak for
Apple's
AFA Gary J Q = John (Tim), Doug
AFL Dyfet decision making process in regards to what is planned and why. I
believe the
AFL Dyfet next comment is from Tim.
AFL TimB Personally, I've been very impressed with Apple's intro of the
VOC. It's an...
AFL TimB innovative and innovatively priced piece of hardware. I too hope
(and I think
AFL TimB I know) it's not the end of Apple's committment to the A2, but it
certainly...
JohnSchapp It's nice, but there are too many other things that should have
been made in
AFL TimB shows a measure of intent. And what a shot in the arm for the
//e!!!!!!!
AFL TimB (done)
JohnSchapp the first place.
Coach101 !
AFL Dyfet I believe the next question is from Doug. GA Doug.
DaviesDoug How come when I'm tracing through the GS tools I see a lot of
this......
Coach101 Cancel !
DaviesDoug LDY #0, LDA [$69],Y ...... instead of LDA [$69]....and......
AFA Gary J Q = Doug
AFA Parik !
DaviesDoug pea 0 pea 0, instead of LDA #0 pha pha
DaviesDoug could save some room......of that....
DaviesDoug 512k parik talked about.
AFA Gary J Q = Doug (Parik)
AFL Dyfet I guess because Dave just started working over there
:)...seriously, GA Parik.
AFA Parik time. not 'nuff off it. :) dunno about tools, but many books I
learned
AFA Parik programming from did do it these slow ways, and I guess people
never think
AFA Parik about it too much, converting it into a macro instead.
AFA Parik ga
DTS Folks !
AFL Dyfet GA Matt and Dave...
AFA Gary J Q = Doug (DTS Folks)
DTS Folks I can't say I've seen a LOT of that sort of thing,
DaviesDoug Just seems to me a lot of stuff isnt done as efficiently as it
could be....
DTS Folks but there is no doubt some of it. Email me the particulars and
I'll see if there is anything I
JohnSchapp !
DaviesDoug i look for all optimization points..
DTS Folks can do. (This is Dave, BTW. Email it to Dave Lyons here.) ga
DaviesDoug I also see things like pulling something off the stack and
immediately pushing
DaviesDoug it back on
KerrySpind Who knows
JohnSchapp !
AFA Gary J Q = Doug (John)
AFL Dyfet GA John...
AFA Parik its so people like you dig through code
AE PhilM !
JohnSchapp The most obvious answer is the following code: LDY #0
AFA Gary J Q = Doug (John, Phil)
JohnSchapp LDA ($69),Y
JohnSchapp INY
JohnSchapp INY
AFA Gary J Right
AFA Gary J !
JohnSchapp BNE LDA ($69),Y
DaviesDoug yah, but that was not the case
AFA Parik (handle -> pointer?)
JohnSchapp You cannot search for branches, there may be many different entry
points
AFA Gary J Q = Doug (Phil)
Coach101 If you had a cache accelerator, keeping all the references
JohnSchapp like BRL.., and many others.
Coach101 in the procedure bank could be beneficial
AE PhilM !
JohnSchapp I mean branch calls not entry points
AFL Dyfet Okay. I believe the next comment was from AE Phil. GA Phil.
DaviesDoug PEA 0 PEA 0 -> LDA #0 PHA PHA is done alot, could save one
byte
DaviesDoug and some cycles
AE PhilM Just a comment about efficient code...
DaviesDoug for tool calls, so no entry points, i doubt
AE PhilM Tis better to write 500 lines of good code per day than 20 lines
of great code
AE PhilM Most of the time critical stuff is limited to a small percentage
of the
DaviesDoug yah, but the tools have been out for a long time, hire someone to
clean it...
DaviesDoug up
AE PhilM program anyway. Unless of cource memory is important
AFA Gary J Q = Doug (Phil, Gary)
DaviesDoug memory is important
AE PhilM Thats a lot of code
AE PhilM And it's always changing
DaviesDoug so do a search for pea 0 pea 0
AFL Dyfet I would like to comment that optimizing tools is a double edged
sword...for
AFL Dyfet example, since the window/dialog managers occasionally call
quickdraw/screen
DaviesDoug I just sped up a display routine I'm working on for the current
WordPerfect....
AFL Dyfet drawing routines directly instead of through standard tool calls
(and some
DaviesDoug project by 50 times by looking for optimizations
AFL Dyfet tools in some situations even do direct screen writes), it is not
possible to
DTS Folks !
AFL Dyfet stick neat things in like a graphics co-processor by simply
trapping the
AFL Dyfet quickdraw tool interface. GA Matt. And please, let's have a
little protocol
AFL Dyfet here! *CRACK*
DTS Folks (This is Dave L) Dave S, optimization is a completely separate
issue
DaviesDoug I have the question, can't I talk when I want, or do I have to
keep doing !'s
DTS Folks from breaking things. Optimizing means making a piece of code do
the same thing faster. If other
AFA Gary J Q = Doug (Dave Lyons)
DTS Folks pieces of code are assuming non-guaranteed things, that is very
bad.
DTS Folks ga
AFL Dyfet I meant in terms of people breaking in while you were talking,
Doug :)...
DaviesDoug :)
DaviesDoug ok, sorry, I'm ripping....
DaviesDoug on code here, just thought people might like to stir up some
conversation...
DaviesDoug on optimization :)
AFL Dyfet I guess we sorta lost the original point in there, DL,
sorry...Um...if you
AFA Gary J !
AFL Dyfet would like to add anything else, Doug, go ahead...
DTS Folks {S Boing}
DaviesDoug . no done .
AFL Dyfet Okay, Gary, GA.
AFA Gary J In defense of the PEA 0 PEA 0 code, it is possible that they may
have wanted
AFA Gary J preserve the accumulator... GA
JohnSchapp !
AFL Dyfet A sliver by itself is not conclusive...true :). GA John.
JohnSchapp Not important.
AFL Dyfet Okay...do we have any more questions tonight?
DaviesDoug through a tool call?
AFA Parik who likes escargo?
AFA Gary J (It doesn't have to come out that way, Doug :)