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APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
June 13, 1989 10:00 p.m. eastern time
Topic: Operating Systems
Forum Leader: Dave Sugar (AFL Dyfet)
AFL Dyfet Welcome to the Apple II Development forum. Tonight's topic is Apple
II operating systems. We will be using
PROTOCOL starting now. This means if you wish to ask a question,
you must enter '?' on a line by itself, and if you wish to comment
on the question being asked, you must enter a '!' on a line by
itself. I will call you each in turn to speak. Okay, let's get the
queue filled :)
AFL Dyfet GA Coach.
Coach101 Any news on the availability of 5.0 and new APW?
IIGS MAN My question!
AFL Dyfet GA Josh.
JoshThomps Coach, by luck, I happen to have both of those...
IIGS MAN 5.0!!!!!
AFL Dyfet I believe he meant full public availability :).
Coach101 Where-o-where did they come from?
Coach101 Right!
IIGS MAN Where are they!
AFL Dyfet GA Jim.
JimLaz Dealer do not have 5.0 yet.
JimLaz ^s
IIGS MAN Upload it!!!!!
JoshThomps I can't...it's not public and I respect that status.
JimLaz Josh, you have the beta?
IIGS MAN when is it going to be public,dyphet?
AFL Dyfet I don't believe it will be released for licensing till at least
July 1st...when
AFL Dyfet it is, it will be up on here.
IIGS MAN @#{body}amp;%*^%^{body}amp;^$%^%&
MarcSSSi !
AFL Dyfet GA Marc.
MarcSSSi The beta 5.0 sw is pretty awsome (did I say that?) bu the function
of beta
IIGS MAN upload a demo!
MarcSSSi testing is to nail the bugs... My HD is somewhat worse for the
wear.
AFL Dyfet One cannot demo an OS easily :). Also, the current beta release
is somewhat
AFL Dyfet hard on HD's. Take that as meaning file crashes...all in all, it
would be
AFL Dyfet much better to wait for the final release version. For those of
us that need
AFL Dyfet to get products out under 5.0 in it's current state, that has been
a bit of
AFL Dyfet a challenge :).
Robin Hewd What is 5.0 current state?
AFL Marty (Give it a rest GSMAN)
AFL Dyfet At this point, our over-worked Apple people here have made it
clear it is
AFL Dyfet almost ready to go out. A little patience, and perhaps they can
get the job
AFL Dyfet done and finally get to tahieti for a well deserved vacation :)
AFL Dyfet GA Josh.
JoshThomps Well, I just thought I'd say I noticed 5.0 allows devices to be
renamed...
IIGS MAN any new functions of system disk 5.0
Robin Hewd Is this the operating system of the future GS or can't u
comment?
AFL Dyfet GA Dave.
Dave Lyons IIGS MAN, there will be *inches* of documentation explaining the
new features
Dave Lyons of System Disk 5.0 for programmers, and there are gobs of
user-visible
Dave Lyons features, too. See the Let's Discuss board here in ADV for lots
of
Dave Lyons discussion. ga
AFL Dyfet Okay, any other comments?
AFL Dyfet GA Kevin.
KevinSSSi I think the Apple Group deserves ALOT of praise, clapping, etc.
They did
Robin Hewd Is 5.0 much faster than 4.0 in disk speed?
KevinSSSi one heck of a job!
KevinSSSi GA
Dave Lyons !
AE JohnS (I'm applauding!)
AE PhilM (me too!)
AFA Parik ()() *praise* *praise* *clap* *clap*
AFL Dyfet Yes, Robin, it is. And please, OBSERVE PROTOCOL :). GA Dave.
Robin Hewd yeh yeh yeh!!!
JimLaz (clap clap)
Dave Lyons Yes, 5.0 is much faster than 4.0 in disk speed. ga
Robin Hewd (what does GA Dave mean??? haven't been on AppleLink long)
AFL Dyfet It's much faster in MANY ways, actually. Desktop applications run
faster on
AFL Dyfet a GS under 5.0 than they do under 4.0 with a Transwarp :).
AFL Dyfet (At least for screen I/O, opening windows, etc).
Robin Hewd I heard the Quickdraw tool and others are faster as well, true?
JoshThomps !
AFL Dyfet Yes, Robin, Qucikdraw is very much enhanced. GA Josh.
JoshThomps 5.0 under a TransWarp GS isn't too shabby either! :)
AE JohnS :-)
AE PhilM :)
AFL Dyfet True, Josh :). Okay, I believe the next question is from Uloth.
GA.
Ulothrix Is 5.0 compact enough for 2 drive use or should an HD be used?
AFL Dyfet GA MAtt.
Matt DTS 5.0 easily fits on two drives. It's when you add applications
that you run into problems.
Matt DTS :-)
AFL Dyfet :)
Ulothrix is disk IO increased as well
Matt DTS The System Software takes up significantly more room on the disk,
but there's a lot of new things.
Matt DTS Those without AppleShare or AppleTalk can remove a lot of
network-related files and save space.
Robin Hewd ?
Matt DTS However, it's still a little bigger due to more OS files and new
tools. GA.
Ulothrix Thanks
AFL Dyfet To put it simply, EVERYTHING is faster EXCEPT the CPU :).
AFL Dyfet Okay, I believe our next question is from Parik. GA Parik.
Coach101 ?
AFA Parik Is G. Little updating his book for GS/OS v5.0? And will A-Wesley
be updating
AFA Parik their line of books in the near future? ga
Robin Hewd Does it take longer to load the finder?
AFL Dyfet Robin, if you wish to comment, please use PROTOCOL. GA Matt.
AFL Marty (-?)
Matt DTS I know Gary and an associate to be working on *A* book that's
largely 5.0 based. I do not know...
Matt DTS ...if it is OS-related or "Exploring the Apple IIgs" type. AW
doesn't update the official
Matt DTS manuals, Apple does, and we are releasing 5.0 documentation this
summer through APDA.
Matt DTS (Robin: Protocol means type "?" with a question and "!" with a
comment, and don't talk until the
Matt DTS forum leader tells you to with "GA", which means "Go ahead.")
(I'm done - GA)
JimLaz I hope that the reason for the final GS/OS books being so slow to
the market is
JimLaz because they need to add 5.0 info.
JimLaz ga
Matt DTS Anyone waiting for AW to put out GS/OS books to buy them is
leading a sheltered life. Period.
AFL Dyfet GA Dave.
Dave Lyons "The final" books?? Who says the system *ever* has to stop
Dave Lyons evolving?
Dave Lyons I think it's a bit early to call any 5.0-related books "slow" in
getting
JimLaz I mean the final printing for the first volume.
Dave Lyons to market, since the software isn't even released yet. ga
JimLaz You know hard back...not beta form.
AFL Dyfet Very true, Dave :). I believe the next question is from Phil. GA
Phil.
AE PhilM I would imagine that some of the speed improvements that we're
made in System
AE PhilM 5.0 are applicable to the Mac system software. Has anyone from
the Mac team
AE PhilM taken a look at some of the magic you did. My SE seem a bit
sluggish compared
AE PhilM to System 5.0 and TWGS.
Coach101 :)
AFL Dyfet Some of the magic done would make the Mac a LOT harder to adapt to
different
AE PhilM done
AFL Dyfet display devices, I would suspect. GA Jim.
JimLaz Phil, I heard that the speed improvement came from taking
advantage of the way
JimLaz the 65816 and the GS work, handle memory, ect.
AE PhilM The way the front window is handled is what I heard, along with
fast font and
JimLaz Not really something that could be done on the Mac the same.
Dave Lyons !
AE PhilM of course the disk drivers...but that is pretty much GS related.
AFL Dyfet Okay, I believe Matt now has the floor. GA Matt.
JimLaz ga
Matt DTS Don't lose any sleep thinking that the Mac and II groups don't
share technology where appropriate.
Matt DTS :) <GA>
AFL Dyfet Yes, you might get contamited with Mac features :). Ga Dave.
Dave Lyons QuickDraw speed improvements came from doing a lot of extra work
to handle
Dave Lyons common special cases like drawing when all clipping regions are
rectangular;
Dave Lyons I don't know whether QuickDraw on the Macintosh already
incorporates these
AE PhilM Yes, but thoes sort of things can also be applied to the Mac,
Dave.
Dave Lyons special cases or not. More System Disk 5.0 speed comes from
ExpressLoad
Dave Lyons (a special format for efficient loading of OMF files) and
ScatterRead in the
NoriM Hi
Dave Lyons AppleDisk 3.5 driver (reads blocks as they come around). I don't
think the
AE PhilM I know about expressload, but that has little to do with snapping
windows in
AE PhilM the finder.
Dave Lyons Macintosh 3.5 driver currently does that, but I could be wrong.
ga
AE PhilM Thank you.
AFL Dyfet Any further comments?
AFL Dyfet GA Joe.
JSchober Is ExpressLoad merely a pre-linked relocation directory, or
something more
JSchober complex?
AFL Dyfet That was a question you snuck in there, Joe :).
JSchober (It was a question on the topic... :P :)
Matt DTS !
JimLaz Foul! Ten yard penalty!
AFL Dyfet Okay, Matt. GA.
Matt DTS More complex. Docs probably coming in a Tech Note in September
(since it's a biggie, but only applies
Matt DTS to those writing their own linkers. Application writers can just
use utilities to handle it.) GA
AFL Dyfet Okay, I see that the next question is from Robin. GA Robin.
Robin Hewd Will the new faster quickdraw make existing animation run
faster???
AFL Dyfet Most applications that call and use Quickdraw in a legal manner
will see at
AFL Dyfet least some improvement, and in some cases significent improvement.
Programs
AFA Gary J Q = Robin, Marty, Coach, JimLaz
AFL Dyfet that directly access screen memory or do their own thing will not,
of course,
AFL Dyfet notice any difference. Anyone else wish to comment?
AFL Dyfet Okay, I believe the next question is from Coach. GA Coach.
Coach101 Oops, wasn't there someone in front of me.... Marty for
instance
AFA Gary J :)
AFL Marty I'm going to ask a question that may border on heresy...
AFL Dyfet Oh. Yes, we skipped poor Marty. Okay, the floor has been yielded
to Marty.
AFL Marty I've seen system 5.0 run and it is indeed impressive...
AFL Marty It is amazing what can be accomplished by just rewriting
software...
AFL Marty which makes me wonder just how efficiently the code for system
4.0...
AFL Marty was written in the first place. Obviously, poorly written code in
what
AFL Marty amounts to the first release of _the_ system disk for the GS...
Coach101 !
JimLaz !
AFL Marty would make system 5.0 look like a real winner. Comments?
AFL Dyfet GA Uloth.
Ulothrix yes I wonder if Apple is holding back for some reason
Ulothrix ga
AFL Dyfet I believe the floor now belongs to Matt, who has the honour of 4.0
to uphold :)
Matt DTS You guys can spend your time worrying about this if you want.
I'll worry about what comes for 5.1.
Matt DTS There's a difference between straightforward, solid code and
optimized, solid code. One takes a *lot*
Matt DTS longer to produce. 4.0 could have been this fast if you'd been
willing to wait this long for it. GA.
AFL Dyfet Will it end up 6.0? ;)
AFL Dyfet GA Dave.
Dave Lyons It would have been nice to have
Dave Lyons all the optimizations in there in 4.0, or even in the ROM,
Dave Lyons but that would mean you would have had to wait *longer* for 4.0 to
be
Dave Lyons released. There's no holding back--
JimLaz -! all my point made...
JimLaz ^s
Dave Lyons it takes *time* to write code to handle all the special cases and
get it
Dave Lyons right.
AFL Dyfet Okay Marty, GA.
Dave Lyons It's not that the original code was written *badly*--it was
written
Dave Lyons to get the job done in a straightforward way. (Have I babbled
long enough
Dave Lyons yet?) GA.
AFL Marty In one perspecive, it _has_ taken 4.0 this long to come up to
speed....
AFL Marty and I don't think the argument about time holds as much water as
one might
AFL Marty think...
AFL Marty It takes man-hours... which can be increased by increasing staff
working on the
AFL Dyfet And then we will drop back to Coach for his comment :), and
eventually his ?.
AFL Marty project. To say that it would have taken more time...
AFL Marty presupposes that all other factors remain constant. GA
Coach101 When Apple makes an announcement or does something, dont go
looking
Coach101 for nefarious reasons for their actions (it is possible that Apple
is
AFL Marty !
Coach101 not as devious as you). Look for the good side.... Its makes
life
Matt DTS (I withdraw the pointed and barbed ! I had prepared in the
interests of time. :) )
Coach101 a lot easire and generally comes closer to the truthc....
Coach101 Coach no leaving pulpit.... GA
AFL Dyfet Okay, Marty, if you are ready, GA.
AFL Marty I'm not looking for nefarious reasons at all. I'm just stating
something I
AFL Marty was wondering about. If I'm wondering it, you can be sure others
are asking
AFL Marty the same kinds of things. I think it will be interesting to see
if the
AFL Marty differences between system 6.0 and system 5.0 are as great.
AFL Dyfet I believe the next question falls to Coach. I think this
particular debate
AFL Marty Oh... don't worry about saving time... I have lots of time :)
AFL Marty done
Coach101 I did not mean a personal attack or offense Marty... I
Coach101 My ?, while running some "buggy" code that was trashing memory
for
AFL Marty (I know)
Coach101 sure I got a screen from GSOS (40 char mode, I think) that told
me
Coach101 I had been had, and that the GS/OS error was 0002. I hit the CR
and
Coach101 rebooted fine but could not find an error 0002 anyplace. What
exactly
Coach101 is error 2? GA
Matt DTS !
AFL Dyfet I knew it would be either Dave or Matt :). GA Matt.
Matt DTS Fatal system error $0002 means GS/OS tried to allocate necessary
memory and couldn't get it.
Matt DTS If it can return with "out of memory" error, it will, but
sometimes it can't.
Matt DTS (It's also a blatant signal to developers that they're making
class 1 calls with class 0 strings.)
Matt DTS GA
Coach101 Thanks Matt, in my case just a side effect of thoroughly trashing
Coach101 memory due to bad manipulation of handles.... Done
AFL Dyfet Hmm...Okay, I believe the next question is from Jim. GA Jim.
JimLaz Is there a GS/OS COPY call or a toolcall in 5.0 that will copy
extended files
JimLaz (resource).
AFL Dyfet GA Dave.
JimLaz If not is there a way to do this from an application. GS
JimLaz GS=GA
Dave Lyons No, but it's easy to use the class-1 OPEN call to open the 2nd
fork, read it,
Dave Lyons and write it to the other file. It's hardly any harder than doing
a regular
Dave Lyons copy. ga
JimLaz I thought you wern't suppossed to access the resource fork
directly...and let
JimLaz the resource manager do everything.
Dave Lyons You're not supposed to *interpret* the data yourself--you have
always had the
AFL Dyfet GA Dave, this one seems to continually crop up :)
Dave Lyons right to copy them, squeeze them, unsqueeze them, etc. This
should have worked
Dave Lyons fine under 4.0, even. I have heard claims that it did not work
reliably, but
Dave Lyons I haven't verified that. ga
JimLaz Any idea if it's possible form ProDOS 8?
JimLaz form=from
AFL Dyfet GA Joe.
JSchober P8 can't directly access forked files with file based MLI calls.
You get an
JSchober Invalid Storage Type error. You =can=, kinda, access files using
READ_BLOCKS
JSchober and WRITE_BLOCK calls... Glen Bredon does this in some of the
latest versions
JSchober of his utils. Seems pretty hazardous, tho. GA.
AFL Dyfet GA Dave.
Dave Lyons What Joe said. A couple days ago I added a "+" next to Davex's
catalog
Dave Lyons listings of extended files. Marks them nicely so you know you
can't do
Dave Lyons anything with them but rename, lock, unlock.... Can't even delete
them. ga
AFL Dyfet Okay, any more comments?
AFL Dyfet I believe the next question is from Dwight. GA Dwight.
DwightW1 there is a rumor that the gs/os softeware system is steadily being
updated to
DwightW1 really accommodate a IIgs hardware conversion to a low-end
Mac...true?
AFA Gary J Heh..you think you're going to get any people who REALLY know to
comment on
AFA Gary J that?
AFA Gary J :)
AFL Dyfet Rumors abound on everything it seems. Either way, would you
really expect an
AFA Parik true? yeah, its true its a rumor
AFL Dyfet answer :)
DwightW1 good enought :)
Dave Lyons (That's exactly what I was going to say, Parik!)
JSchober :)
AFA Parik oh no...i'm thinking like lyons. acckkk (or should he be
scared?)
AFL Dyfet I do not see how one could view GS/OS 5.0 in that manner simply
because of all
AFL Dyfet the hard work optimizing it for a 65816, however. :)
AFA Parik NONO its SYSTEM DISK v5.0
AFA Parik GS/OS v2.0 :)
AFL Dyfet :)
AFL Dyfet Bad habit. GA Jim.
Dave Lyons Nope, it's going to be GS/OS 3.0!
JimLaz What is the GS/OS version number on 5.0?
JimLaz oppps, hit return before seeing it...
AFA Parik I hate numbers
Matt DTS GS/OS 2.0 was on 4.0. GS/OS on 5.0 is 3.0, changed from 2.1 when
it was 4.1, which it isn't. Got it?
AFL Dyfet Well, now that that has been streightened out...do we have any
more questions
AFL Dyfet for tonight?