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APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
Tuesday, May 29, 1990 10:00 p.m. eastern time
Topic: Open Discussion
Forum Leader: Gary Jacobson (AFA Gary J)
Coach101 Dave, have you ever tried debugging an AppleTalk completion
routine
Dave Lyons Coach, Yeah, I actually have...not very fun or productive, though.
GSBug
Dave Lyons doesn't appreciate the stack being in page 1 or even being inside
an interrupt, I think.
Coach101 with GsBug (init version)? Its real sport!
AFL Scott Anyone... have you tried to make a program designed for single
segment use
AFL Scott into a mulit-segment program? Pain the butt.
AFL Scott With Merlin, that is.
Coach101 Scott, no, but if there are a lot of references depending on the
B/K
Coach101 registers, I would not care to try the operation!
AFA Gary J I have with ORCA, Scott.
AFL Scott With Orca it's a dream, but with Merlin... YUCKO.
AFL Scott Coach, you got it, dude!:)
AFL Scott I'm converting it now by hand to Orca.
Coach101 I sure hope that code was W-E-L-L commented!!!!
AFL Scott It wasn't. :( BIG :((
AFA Gary J Ok, it's about time to start.
AFA Gary J Welcome to the Apple II Development Forum conference. Tonight is
an open
AFA Gary J topic, so feel free to discuss anything you'd like. Function has
a question
AFA Gary J on the floor at the moment...
Function Does anyone know anything about the IIgs Console Driver?
Dave Lyons Function, I'm moderately familiary with it...what's your
question?
Function Well I need to know how to use and load it.
Dave Lyons Function, the console driver is loaded automatically when you boot
GS/OS.
Function Well how do I write stuff to the screen using it?
Dave Lyons Function, do you have any GS/OS reference material? There's at
least a chapter on the
Dave Lyons Console Driver.
Function No, I don't have the GS/OS Reference material.
Dave Lyons You'll want the GS/OS Reference as soon as it comes out (the
current APDA draft will do if you need
Dave Lyons it fast).
Coach101 Function, can you open, read, and write files?
Function How much do the latest GS/OS refs cost? Are they still beta?
Function I'm not an APDA member does that matter?
Matt DTS The only GS/OS references available at this point are the pre 5.0
ones. We expect to have an Addison-
Matt DTS Wesley 5.0 GS/OS Reference later this year, and partners can get
the information they need from DTS
Matt DTS in the meantime. GA.
AFA Gary J Ok, let's move on to the next question. GA Mike.
Nuzz I'd like to know what the proceedure is on using a Line Edit
Control without
Nuzz Taskmaster.
Nuzz I can create it, display it, but can't get the idle, or
insertion
AFA Gary J GA, Dave
Dave Lyons (1) Why don't you want to use TaskMaster? and
Dave Lyons (2) You pretty much do the same stuff that TaskMaster would do if
you were
Dave Lyons using it. That is, on a mouseDown you call
Dave Lyons FindControl and TrackControl; on a keyDown you call
SendEventToCtl, etc. ga
Nuzz That's where I'm confused.
Dave Lyons What it? I'm confused.
Nuzz Do I call SendEvent after the TrackControl
Dave Lyons No, SendEventToCtl should only be needed if
Dave Lyons you get a keypress, I believe.
Nuzz So I should call SendEventToctl then TrackControl
Nuzz Both after FindControl
Dave Lyons TrackControl is only for mouseDown events.
Dave Lyons So SendEventToCtl is what you want for a keypress while the LE
control is the Target control,
Dave Lyons regardless of where the mouse is (FindControl not necessary).
Dave Lyons Hmmm...Matt says you have to call SendEventToCtl to send Null
events to the target control
Matt DTS The pseudo-code for TaskMaster in TB Ref volume 3 is useful in
these instances, methinks.
Nuzz OK, do I send another SendEvent to keep the Insertion blinking
Dave Lyons if you want the insertion point to blink. Sounds reasonable.
Nuzz OK, I think I gotit. Thanks, GA
Dave Lyons (So SendEventToCtl for TargetOnly on a null event.) ga
AFA Gary J Ok, let's move on to Doctor Why's question. GA, Doc.
Doctor Why I'm loading in a 'resourced' cursor in an ORCA/Pascal program. It
displays
Doctor Why okay, but when I move it I notice that there are narrow columns
where the
Doctor Why cursor appears as junk. I am guessing that these columns are about
every 8
Doctor Why pixels. Any thoughts?
AFA Gary J Could be your mask pointer is messed up, but I don't really
know.
AFA Gary J GA, Dave
Dave Lyons The mask is a good possibility. Make sure you have an extra word
of width on each row. If
Dave Lyons it's still messed up & you're reasonably sure you aren't trashing
RAM at random, send me your
Dave Lyons cursor & I'll see if it happens here too. ga
Doctor Why Okay, Thanks
AFA Gary J For those who have come in later this evening, tonight is an open
topic night,
AFA Gary J so feel free to ask any questions. We are using protocol.
Seaspider I keep loosing tool 31 and 32 any ideas? Thank you..
AFA Gary J Ok, Seaspider snuck a question in there. Could you ask your
question again,
AFA Gary J please?
Seaspider Thanks Gary, I keep loosing tool 31 & 32 any ideas?
Seaspider (system tools)
AFA Gary J Loosing? You mean they're not there when you try to load them?
AFA Gary J GA, Matt
Matt DTS It would be really hard to lose tool 31 as there is no tool 31 as
part of the system.
AFA Gary J :)
Matt DTS Tool 32 is the MIDI Tools (are?), and they are not installed with
the "Latest System Software"
Matt DTS installer script. You have to select either "Apple MIDI" or "Card
6850 MIDI" to get them. GA.
Seaspider Hummm, I have had to put them back in several times. One tool is
for games..
Seaspider Eg.. Couldn't play Carman San Diego until I put the tools
back...
Matt DTS It sounds like the program uses system tool set numbers when it
shouldn't. Sorry. GA.
Seaspider Ok thanks Matt.
AFA Gary J Ok, any other questions this evening?
AFA Gary J GA, Scott
AFL Scott Dumb question... as usual... whats wrong with this
instruction...
AFL Scott lda $00FE,y?
Coach101 Nothing
AFL Scott APW and Orca barf on it. Illegal operand.
Matt DTS Try lda |$FE,y
Matt DTS $FE by itself would be a direct page address, and there probably
isn't a DP,y addressing mode.
Dave Lyons (Not for LDA, anyway.)
AFA Gary J That should work, I would think (lda |$FE,y)
AFL Scott There isn't, Matt. Will do it... Merlin doesn't barf on it,
though... The
AFL Scott disassembly listing by both the Rom, dumpobj, and NL like it, too.
Odd.
AFL Scott Done. Just an observation.
AFA Gary J The assembly will drop the leading zero's
Coach101 KLUDGE EQU $0093 LDA KLUDGE,Y Will also work :)
AFA Gary J At least in APW or ORCA. Merlin will treat it different.
AFL Scott Nope Coach... that doesn't work.
AFA Gary J GA, Dave
Dave Lyons If you're looking for a possible reason, it could be that APW/ORCA
is trying to help
Dave Lyons you: if you *wanted* direct-page indexed (which you would get if
it existed for LDA), and it
Dave Lyons just used absolute-indexed instead, your program wouldn't work
right. It looks like it's making
Dave Lyons sure you wanted what you're getting. ga
AFA Gary J GA, Coach
Coach101 Very inconsistent on ORCA/APW's part because......
Coach101 KLUDGE EQU $0093 LDA [KLUDGE],Y ....
Coach101 will get you an Illegal Operand Error... I get lots of those :)
ga
AFL Scott It's a level 8 error and the code produced looked ok.. just an odd
error I
AFL Scott guess.
AFL Scott That works.. but this is for a fast screen update routine, so that
doesn't
AFL Scott help.. But thanks.:)
AFA Gary J Allright, our next question is from VICTORYSFT. GA, VIC
VICTORYSFT The latest GSOS.h for APWC uses #defines to change prodos 8 recs
to GSOS recs.
VICTORYSFT Although I never use prodos 8 recs, I've just deleted them from
GSOS.h so that
VICTORYSFT the ORCA/C compiler accepts it.
VICTORYSFT Just to be on the safe side, however, I would like to keep in the
#defines.
VICTORYSFT I guess I could accomplish the same effect with typedefs, but does
anybody know
VICTORYSFT a method of fixing GSOS.h using #defines?
AFA Gary J GA, Matt
Matt DTS You've got the background a little muddled.
Matt DTS They're not P8 records, they're ProDOS 16 records. They're done
that way so that if you include
Matt DTS GSOS.h and not P16.h (or whatever), you don't have to append GS to
all the call names to get class
Matt DTS one GS/OS calls. If you include both, the conditional
pre-processor macros define all the
Matt DTS class one calls as "callnameGS" so you can make both class zero
and class one calls.
Matt DTS I don't have an answer to your problem, but that's why it happens.
GA.
VICTORYSFT I understand why its happening, but is there a fix?
AFA Gary J GA, Coach
Coach101 If you #include both the old ProDos .h file and the new GSOS.h
file,
Coach101 then you could have a problem... I use the GSOS.h file a lot, and
have
Coach101 not had the problem you are experiencing (not with the latest
GSOS.h)...
VICTORYSFT I never use prodos.h, but the init files I use had it.
Coach101 Are you #include both headers, if so, drop the ProDos one... ga
VICTORYSFT I would still like the automatic conversion to GS recs from p16.
Coach101 Ok, bite the bullet and get rid of all usage of prodos.h
Coach101 done
AFA Gary J Thanks, Coach, Matt.
AFA Gary J Anymore questions this evening?
VICTORYSFT Anybody know why gsos.h uses #defines for this purpose?
Coach101 I dont
Matt DTS (don't wait for me; I don't know the background on that particular
case)
VICTORYSFT ok, thanks. GA
AFA Gary J (I'm not, Matt :)
AFA Gary J Is anyone writing programs out there? (why all the silence :)
AFL Scott I am. But don't really have any problems except for converting
from Merlin
AFL Scott to Orca. But then that's all by hand.:)
AFA Gary J Isn't there a conversion program for some of that stuff, Scott?
AFL Scott Yeah, but they blow away labels.. labels are essential in this
code (that's
AFL Scott rather poorly commented).
AFA Gary J Labels are the ONLY comments, eh? :)
AFL Scott In a lot of places, yeah... :(
AFL Scott Plugging my stuff in has proved to be fun.
Mac Hater (oh, does the scsi upgrade [gs/os v3.02] fix the problem with
SFTools and
Mac Hater duplicate filenames?)
Matt DTS No. That's a resource manager problem, and there is no resource
manager upgrade included.
Coach101 I need an opinion on a rather involved issue....
AFA Gary J Ok, Coach, what's your issue?
Coach101 Internet addresses (of TCP/IP fame) use addresses that are 32 bits
in length.
Coach101 On the network, all bytes are in big endian order (i.e., the
opposite of
Coach101 IIgs order). Now most of the time one thinks of an IP address as
d1.d2.d3.d4
Coach101 where each d is one of the bytes of the 32 bits. On a TCP/IP
implementaion
Coach101 for the IIgs should one keep an internet address in inverse order
(as a long)
Coach101 or should I keep it in big endian order (sort of like char[4]).
It really
Coach101 does not make a technical difference of any magnitude, but every
day I change
Coach101 my mind on which is "more correct". Does anyone have an opinion?
ga
AFA Gary J GA, Scott
AFL Scott As long as it doesn't affect the masking of the address any and
communication
AFL Scott is still possible with other nodes, then just comment the way you
store the
AFL Scott address.
AFL Scott done.
AFA Gary J (I think it wouldn't matter as long as you documented whatever
you chose)
VICTORYSFT I'd go with MSB first, in case you ever decided to port to another
system. GA
VICTORYSFT (long rather than char)
Coach101 But it is a user inteface issue... Does a using programmer (one
who calls
Coach101 the device driver) care? Porting, sort of out of the question for
a
Coach101 IIgs device driver :)
AFA Gary J GA, Scott
AFL Scott Then if it's an established standard, stick with it. It might
make a nodes
AFL Scott heard entry and netaddr easier for the programmer of those
things.
AFL Scott done.
AFA Gary J GA, VICTORYSFT
VICTORYSFT If you're also including the programmer's interface (C routines,
etc), then I
VICTORYSFT think that most C people would prefer a long to an array of
ints.
VICTORYSFT In this case, keeping portability in mind would make sense. :)
VICTORYSFT GA
VICTORYSFT (array of char, I meant)
Coach101 Ok, thanks for the input..... I can will mull it all over....
Coach101 ga
AFA Gary J Any other questions this evening?
AFA Gary J GA, Scott
AFL Scott Coach... are you trying to do what I think you're trying to do?
AFL Scott If so... go for it!:)
Coach101 I am probably DOING what you think I am doing..... IP
communications between
Coach101 two cooperating IIgs's should occur this evening..... Had to
break
Coach101 the debugging session to attend... ga
Mac Hater layman terms? :)
Tamira IP??
AFA Gary J (protocol off)
Mac Hater quick, we need a coach translator.
AFL Scott Sounds great! Will you try to do it with live nets (ie,
non-GS/GS)?
Coach101 Scott, yes.... The design goal is complete compatibility with
the MacTCP
Coach101 implemention (which really means KIP compatibility). So if you
have a
Coach101 DDP/IP gateway (e.g. Kinetics FastPath), then you can get from
LocalTalk
Coach101 to EtherNet. From EtherNet, you can get where ever in the US you
wish... ga
AFL Scott That's splendid, Coach! Something like that is really needed.
What do you
AFL Scott think the speed will be?
Coach101 That is the BIG Q.... Hopefully I will have some answer
shortly...
Coach101 It is all in assembler, and I have tried to pay attention to the
code
Coach101 that is in "tight" places so I hope to be in the neighborhood of a
Mac+
Coach101 TCP/IP is a very popular Local Area Networking standard. Just
about
Coach101 any workstaion you buy will have a TCP/IP implementation with, or
available,
Coach101 for it. Additionally, there is a national network (the InterNet)
that runs
Coach101 on TCP/IP. Have TCP/IP, and a gateway to the world, would allow
a IIgs
Coach101 to do, and interact with, lots of things... done
AFL Scott Keep us posted! This is really exciting!:) Are you including
sockets, too?
Dave Lyons (Very cool!)
Mac Hater would you need something like appleshare or just a modumb?
Coach101 Now you know why the flurry of DTS questions Dave :)
Matt DTS Well, we just naturally assumed you were doing something way cool
or we would have given you
Matt DTS bogus answers. :)
Dave Lyons (Actually I think he pretty much told us what he was doing
anyway.)
Matt DTS "Sure...go ahead and disable interrupts permanently. Why would
AppleTalk mind?"
Coach101 I will be back with more detailed "scheduling" questions Matt
:)
AFA Gary J :)
Matt DTS <this is all a JOKE, incidentally>
AFL Scott New hardwar... I can see it now!:)
Coach101 ARe you sure Matt, sounded familiar to me :)
AFA Gary J :)
AFL Scott Matt... and you wondered about 19.2 k baud modems!:) LOL!:)
AFL Scott Coach.... how are you controlling the address of the node? Just a
question.
Coach101 Via a CDev Scott. Eventually you will get two options
Coach101 1) Pick your address 2) if you have a DDP/IP gateway supporting
KIP
Coach101 then you can have the DDP/IP gateway dynamically assign an address
for
Coach101 you...
Coach101 I am still chasing one that looks like it is headed for a 2300
posting
Coach101 to AIIDTS... Fireing off an Nbp LookUp from AppleTalk timer
completion
Coach101 routine is giving me a bit of a problem (returns $8888 in A, but
ResultCode
Coach101 looks like it is virgin {I preset it to $00FF}). If I dont find
it in my
Coach101 code this evening you will get it in the morning :)
AFL Scott Scary thought... news on a GS... direct from uunet... Newsreaders
for the GS..
AFL Scott Coach... really neat possibilities there.
AFL Scott Super large hard disks... people flipping out when they see their
drives
AFL Scott accessing for no reason that they know about... Great!!!!
AFL Scott Coach, seriously.. I wish you the best!