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APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
Tuesday, December 4, 1990 10:00 p.m. Eastern Time
Topic: Beginners Night
Forum Leader: Dave Sugar (AFL Dyfet)
JWankerl Well... since I'm a beginner, is it okay if I ask how to use
NewList2? Or does
JWankerl that put me in the intermediate category and I'm not allowed to
ask?
Coach101 Since you new about the "2" you are an expert :)
AFA Gary J :)
JWankerl Expert? Gee, I get promoted fast around here! :-)
AFL Dyfet That is a fair question for tonight Wankerl....
JWankerl Okay... so... how do I work NewList2?
Dave Lyons Joe, can you be more specific? Have you read what TB Ref 3 has to
say about it?
JWankerl Yep, dave. I read it. Everything is a resource and when I call
NewList2 with
JWankerl all parameters $FFFF and $FFFFFFFF and a default drawing routine,
my machine
JWankerl dies.
Dave Lyons What is "a default drawing routine"?
JWankerl NIL first parameter.
Dave Lyons Are you using 5.0.3?
JWankerl I want to add a member to my list, so I add the resource and
update the size
JWankerl field in my list control and mark that resource changed, then do I
call
JWankerl NewList2? Or do I gotta do something else, too?
JWankerl Yes, 5.0.3
Dave Lyons Hmmm...
Dave Lyons Sounds right to me.
JWankerl Well the machine dies. :-( What I do instead of NewList2 is to
first dispose
JWankerl of my old list control and then make a new one with NewControl2
and it works.
JWankerl But I don't like that - I'd rather use NewList2.
Dave Lyons (Have you checked the TB Ref technote? Checking....)
JWankerl Which technote is that?
Dave Lyons GS TN #24. But I just looked & didn't see anything interesting on
the List Manager.
Dave Lyons Now checking another source (pun intended).
Windrider5 Joe, I have also had trouble using the NewList 2 call with the
"default
Windrider5 but it uses a custom drawing routine.
JWankerl Windrider: Does your machine crash into oblivion when you make
the call?
Windrider5 drawing routine" I have been using the source code from the Darts
program
Windrider5 yes
Matt DTS (dave's a little touchy these days about the standard list member
drawing routine. :)
JWankerl So you think the problem is with the default drawing routine?
Windrider5 Could be.
Dave Lyons Matt, not in 5.0.3.
Matt DTS Yeah, I know, but it's a chance to give you a hard time.
AFL Dyfet While we're waiting on Dave....Are there any other beginners here
who would
AFL Dyfet like to get a question in the queue?
Dave Lyons Wait, got it--
AFL Dyfet GA Dave...
Dave Lyons It appears to be a documentation bug. Try passing $FFFFFFFF for
the draw routine & let me know
Dave Lyons if -that- works okay.
Dave Lyons I'll verify it & get it in a technote if this is right.
JWankerl $FFFFFFFF???? Okay, I'll give it a try.
JWankerl Would $FFFFFFFF be the default routine, or the routine that was
last used, like
JWankerl all the other $F...F values mean?
Dave Lyons (Yes, the all Fs means "don't change the value.")
AFL Dyfet Okay, since I didn't get to run it at the start, here goes the
intro for
AFL Dyfet tonight :)
AFL Dyfet Good evening and welcome to the Apple II Development Conference
AFL Dyfet Tonight is beginners night. This means we will be here to help
AFL Dyfet the beginner. Feel free to bring up your questions and ask for
AFL Dyfet help.
JLeathlean Well, I'm not a beginner, but I do have a question
AFL Dyfet ....Okay, I believe Leathlean has the
next question
AFL Dyfet for tonight....Go ahead Leathlean...
JLeathlean Heh
JLeathlean I'm having a problem with NewWindow2. I've created a window with
Genesys, with
JLeathlean a simple ICON and a StaticText box. I then use NewWindow 2 to put
JLeathlean the window up. While it appears the call works - nothing appears
on the screen
JLeathlean and Nifty List shows the VisRgn is (0,0,0,0). I'm at a loss as to
what's wrong
JLeathlean ...
Dave Lyons What's the window's alleged rectangle?
Dave Lyons For that matter, is it Visible (bit $0020 on in the wFrameBits)?
JWankerl Check the fVis flag, too.
JLeathlean The rectangle is approx (120,280,100,300) As for Visible - that
was defined
JLeathlean in the window record by Genesys...
Dave Lyons What does Nifty List display when you do a ~w ? Is your window
listed in square brackets = invisible?
JLeathlean I don't recall off hand... Assuming that it is invisible - what
is the
JLeathlean simplest method to make it visible? (even if it involves a
toolcall).
JWankerl _ShowWindow
Dave Lyons In NL 3.0 or higher, type _ShowWindow(xxxxxx) where the Xs are
your window pointer.
Dave Lyons (Simpler = get the frame bits right when you create it, if you
wanted to create it visible to start
Dave Lyons with.)
JLeathlean As far as I know - I believe the window frame is right. If not -
I might have
JLeathlean a complaint about Genesys... Thanks for the help...
Coach101 But, even if the frame bits are wrong, will the vis
Coach101 rgn look like nil?
JLeathlean Who knows... At least I may have a solution... Buy DESIGN
MASTER!
JLeathlean <heh>
Dave Lyons Yup, invisible windows can have (0,0)(0,0) for their region. No
problem. The region *handle*
Dave Lyons is not nil, but the bounds rect is all zeroes inside the handle.
Coach101 Understood, my question was would a "normal" window that is
invisible have a vis rgn of 0,0,0,0?
JLeathlean Well - I'll try putting a ShowWindow in and see if that helps...
Thanks for
JLeathlean all the help...
Dave Lyons Coach, Yes--I just dumped one a minute ago from Nifty List. My
DIcEd "Clipboard" window
Dave Lyons is invisible until you Show it, and it has a 0 vis rect.
Coach101 Thanks
Matt DTS (The VisRgn is probably empty so in case someone does any drawing
it will be clipped out.)
AFL Dyfet Okat, Reff has the next question...GA Reff...
Reff Help!! When I run Prosel volume repair in test mode I get errors,
file skipped
Reff block in use. I assume that 2 files are trying to use the same
block.
Reff any ideas?
JLeathlean That's correct - Prosel runs through each file in order while
trying
JLeathlean to verify the validity of the contents of the disk. If a file has
used a block
JLeathlean already marked by Mr. Fixit (Volume Repair) it will give that
error. Somehow
JLeathlean the bitmap has been contaminated. The easiest fix is to remove
the offending
JLeathlean file - and run Mr. Fixit again. The second time, it will give a
Block Free
JLeathlean Error. One of the two files has contaminated data. If you have a
backup
JLeathlean replace both of them, otherwise inspect them and see if you can
determine which
JLeathlean one is bad...
Reff This is an ongoing problem. I have reformated 3 times and the
errors multiply
Reff I have had as many as 66
AFA Gary J Ouch.
AFL Dyfet GA Coach
Coach101 If the volume is not too large, and if you want to
Coach101 maximize your chance of not losing anything, and
Coach101 if you cannot determine the two files that have
Coach101 crossed their links, then save the entire volume
Coach101 using ProSel's backup routine. Re-initialize the
Coach101 volume and restore from the disk(s). If you try
Coach101 deleting a file when the bit map is bad, things can
Coach101 get even worse. If you really feel you must delete
Coach101 the file, follow the instructions in the prosel
Coach101 manual for deleting a file without releasing its blocks. ga
Reff I have a good backup. I do a low level format and then restore.
Last time I
Reff ran for two days before I started getting errors
JLeathlean ? what kind of hard drive/computer
Coach101 Can you selectively restore a single file from your backup?
Reff I use a GS with a Seagate 157n 48meg.
AFA Gary J Do you have a ROM disk?
Reff Yes I can selective restore.
AFA Gary J Or, what kind of memory card?
Reff I have a Ramfast could that cause a problem.
Reff I have a Juice + Ram card 4 meg. It checks ok.
AFA Gary J I had the file problem you had, but it was caused by a bad jumper
on one of my
AFA Gary J memory cards. The system hung during a write operation on one or
two occasions
AFA Gary J before I fixed the card.
AFA Gary J ga
Coach101 Reff, when you do the restore, does an a volume check run clean
immediately afterward?
Reff Volume cheks ok after a restore. last time for 2 days
AFA Gary J Any particular set of files being corrupted each time?
AFA Gary J (Like, files in a directory you download to a lot?)
Coach101 Or any particular block addresses
AFA Gary J Or, files in a directory you use a particular program with?
Reff No just random in several directories.
AFA Gary J (Or, as Coach said :)
Reff No the files that are corrupted are not evev being accessed.
Coach101 Reff, do you know if the same block numbers, irrespective of what
files think they own
Coach101 them, are always involved?
Matt DTS It does sound like someone stepping on cached directories or bad
memory for same.
AFA Gary J ...which could have something to do with the RAMfast
Coach101 Directories or VTOC bit-maps Matt?
Reff Could the Finder data be writing back over these files
Coach101 Do you see any other anomalies PRIOR to discovering the duplicate
block allocations?
Reff I had two drives connected and I was overwriting the directories
on the 2nd
Reff so I disconected it
Reff My "dir" files were changed to "wrp" file type.
Matt DTS Either, coach.
Coach101 How long are your cables and where are the terminators?
JLeathlean Also - which SCSI - Old or HS...
Matt DTS That would say directory blocks, wouldn't you think?
Reff My cables are short.
Reff RAMfast
JLeathlean It probably wouldn't hurt to add a pass-thru terminator at the
computer end
JLeathlean provided the Ramfast card isn't self terminated (I don't know
myself)
Coach101 Terminators?
JLeathlean BTW: how old is your drive?
Reff Drive is slightly less than 1 year old.
Reff I'm about to reformat for the 4th time, change cables and then put
my rev c
Reff back in
Coach101 Reff, if you had a case of a drive that was not being used (the
seond) drive having
Coach101 its directories dingled, I would look very closely
Coach101 at the SCSI card, cables, addressing etc. Though
Coach101 all of you symptoms don't really dovetail to cabling
Coach101 that one (writing on the wrong drive) sure does and
Coach101 it would be best to squash it before further chasing..
Coach101 ga
Reff I unhooked the second drive then my open blocks strted
Reff unhooked started
JLeathlean Writing on the wrong drive could be indicative of duplicate SCSI
id's.
Matt DTS The Apple cards just get confused and kind of die, but RAMfast
might respond differently.
Coach101 Or noise/crosstalk/reflections on poor, defective, improperly
terminated cables....
Reff What woud you replace first drive, cable or card?
Coach101 I would use a high quality (and SHORT) system cable.
Coach101 Terminator at system cable entry to first device.
Coach101 If I had more than one device I would also place a
Coach101 terminator at the end of the chain. The SCSI
Coach101 specification requires a terminator at each end but
Coach101 Apple uses a short cable and gets away with one
Coach101 terminator for a single device. ga
Coach101 Wait one....
Coach101 Are your drives internally or externally terminated? And how sure
of that are you?
Reff I have an end of a cable without a termnator. It is where I
removed my tape
Reff backup
Reff but I have a terminator on the other end
Coach101 You have a "dangling" connector?
Reff This configuration has been the same for two weeks without a
problem though.
Reff Yes a dangling connector where I removed my tape drive.
Coach101 Sometimes you can bend the rules and not get hurt.
Coach101 Sometimes you bend the rules and get burned...
Coach101 In the worst case, you bend the rules and get an intermittent
problem....
Coach101 I know that a lot of the times you can do without
Coach101 terminators, have dangling cables, etc.
Coach101 However, to really determine if it is causing a problem you would
have to put an oscilloscope
Coach101 on the lines and look at signal levels, rise times, fall times,
and REFLECTIONS.
Coach101 If you have a dangling cable, you WILL have reflections. THe nice
low impedance of your SCSI
Coach101 system is looking at an "infinite" impedance termination on the
dangling cable. A reflection
Coach101 will result. Whether the reflection is damaging or not is hard to
say.
Reff I have another cable I'll try. I was just about to shut down and
try that.
Reff But would all that cause two files to try to use the same block?
JLeathlean Fate... or bad programming...
Coach101 If you are getting reflections in the cable system, any bit could
get inverted. I have chased
Coach101 SCSI problems that would only show up on a specific
JLeathlean Try turning off the DMA. If the computer memory is flaky - it
could cause
JLeathlean the problem...
Coach101 data pattern (some 200 bytes long) and the whole
Coach101 problem turned out to be too long a cable (actually too
Coach101 much capicitance)... Play by the rules to be
Coach101 safe...
AFL Dyfet Okay, do we have any other questions for tonight folks?
Reff Thanks for all the tips.