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APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
Tuesday, May 8, 1990, 10:00 p.m. eastern time
Topic: AppleFest discussion
Forum Leader: Dave Sugar (AFL Dyfet)
AFL Dyfet This is Applefest night...Documentation was moved to the end of
the month :)
AFL Dyfet Who here was at Applefest last weekend??
MikeE22 I was.
Tamira ::Hand raised::
AFL Dyfet What did you think of the show, Mike...?
AFL Scott I was at AppleFest, all day Saturday.
MikeE22 Would have been nice if Apple was there.
DangardAce I went all three days and all I got was some lousy sweatshirts.
:)
MikeE22 But ByteWorks made up for it. and the exhibtors seemed happy.
DangardAce ByteWorks (Mike) said this was his best Fest (financially) ever.
Tamira got some software...and literature and a few other things
AFL Dyfet I know we (AO) was pretty happy too at the show :)
AFL Dyfet (for booth turnout)
AFA Gary J Have you been to any previous Applefests, Mike?
MikeE22 SanFran last fall, was my first one. I live in Omaha, Nebrasa.
MikeE22 oops, Nebraska.
AFL Scott I was happy. People were enthusiastically buying things. It's a
great thing
AFL Scott to see!
Tamira Yes AO got a lot of people stopping by,......iother than AO'ers
that is
DangardAce AO had the coolest hospital lounge.
DangardAce Uh, hospitality.
AFL Dyfet I was particularly impressed with Barney Stone's DB Master
demo...
Tamira yea it was good wasn't it ???
MikeE22 Yes, I got DB Master Pro. But that Ram Fast card was sure
impressive.
Rob Morgan any other a// greats?
AFL Scott TurboRez!!!!!
AFA Gary J (I hear Matt supported AppleFest... Yeah Matt!)
DangardAce Yes, Matt was there.
AFL Dyfet Since Scott has mentioned it, how many other lucky campers got to
see Turbo-Rez
AFL Dyfet at the Tri-state booth??
DangardAce I did, I did, I did.
Rob Morgan Does turbo inprove all graphics?
DangardAce Well, you should think of TurboRez more as an additional graphic
mode more
DangardAce than an improvement of existing graphics.
AFL Scott Agree, Ace!
DangardAce However, GS graphics can be written to the card..
MikeE22 Looked like TurboRez was a real card this time. and was
impressive.
Rob Morgan So, it has to be written for the card?
Tamira It was really good tho
AFL Scott Overlayed, underlayed... animated on top, under...
AFL Dyfet And Sprites...
AFL Scott and really a very, very cool looking display!
AFL Dyfet I believe the card also has hardware scrolling, and does have
horizontal, as
DangardAce They plan to let the card interface to certain QuickDraw
primitives.
AFL Dyfet well as scan line, screen partitioning.
AFA Parik when is turborez coming online for a chat scott?
MikeE22 Scott, and the bumble bee was pretty too.
Rob Morgan Now, if somebody would support the software.
AFL Scott Second week of July, Parik. At that time they will announce
whether TurboRez
AFL Scott will be a go or no go.
Airship Don't let him get to you Gib, I've been restraining myself too.
DangardAce The TurboRez is a honey. Think of it as adding VGA to your GS.
Rob Morgan muck it to death!
AFA Parik vga? hah!! much more than vga
Tamira I thought the vbee was cute :)
DangardAce With 32,768 colors I don't think I'd have any trouble picking good
colors
DangardAce for a blood and guts picture.
AFL Scott Depends on how you want to do it, Ace. If you want 256 colors you
still have
AFL Scott to decide just which of the 256 you need to use (out of the
32768).
Airship <=- already saving for a turbo rez board. Planning ahead this
time.
Rob Morgan somebody tell Sierra about it please!
DangardAce Sure wish those Virtual guys would resurface, though.
AFA Gary J TurboRez sounds good. I just hope it becomes popular enough for
developers
AFA Gary J to write for, and develop as a standard.
AFA Parik here's hoping Apple may pick up the turborez card.
DangardAce Here's hoping Synnovation stays afloat long enough for them to
consider it!
AFL Dyfet I think the problem with Turbo-rez being common-place is that it
will be a
AFL Dyfet little pricey...
DangardAce They won't go with Ingenuity now, what with their identity crisis
and all that.
A GibberFC How bout AE???? <grin> Then it would get real pricey
AFL Scott (me too, David).
AFA Parik how many colors on a screen at any given moment?
Rob Morgan How much is it?
Airship Pricey, and unreliable :(
A GibberFC <---- wants 45,000,000,000,000 on screen at once.....
A GibberFC I don't ask for much
AFL Scott They don't know, yet, Rob. Shoot people...it's only a
prototype.
MikeE22 $400 - $500 for Turbo Rez card.
AFA Gary J ouch
Tamira OUCH!!!!!!
MikeE22 At least that's what there handout said.
AFL Scott 2048 colors at once.
AFL Scott They don't even know how much it's gonna cost to build.
AFA Gary J Too high to make it commonplace among GS users.
Airship That and a 1 GHz CPU and I'll be happy.....for a week or so.
A GibberFC just like the Transwarp <grin>
Rob Morgan so it's not in any production yet.
JoySchtick How can you tell what speed chip you have in your TWGS????
Coach101 In the upper right corner of the TWGS is a little silver,
rectangular,
Coach101 can. It is the oscillator... Divide the MHZ by 4 to get the
speed
Coach101 of your TWGS... Speed rating of the 65816 chip is immaterial...
AE was
Coach101 for a while pushing the chips beyond the rated speeds...
A GibberFC Actually... if you have Appleworks GS 1.1 then go under the apple
menu
A GibberFC and choose About AWGS...with the option key held down... that will
tell you
JoySchtick Okay, thanks
DangardAce I'm worried about AE.
Airship A co, with a service dept that has a busy phone all the time is a
bad sign.
Rob Morgan anything herd on the 20 mhz chip?
A GibberFC 20mzh... Yeah.... Ok.. tell me another story
JohnC154 dream on
AFL Dyfet No, Rob, but the hand-held scanners for the IIgs were at the
show...
Rob Morgan the 20 65816.
JoySchtick <-- got a Quickie. Now waiting for the new software.
Coach101 The 20mhz chip is waiting on the 16-bit Apple II bus.... :)
Rob Morgan I've got the quickie.
AFL Dyfet My favorite was 'Quickie', too...
AFL Dyfet We even got it to digitize off tee-shirts!
AFA Gary J :)
JoySchtick I liked the picture quality of the Lightening Scan but Vitesse
said their s/w
JoySchtick will do better.
Rob Morgan did the improve the photo mode yet?
Rob Morgan try it, it's depressing :(
DangardAce I kept wondering why the LightningScan guy kept scanning the same
pics over
DangardAce and over.
JoySchtick Rob, b/w are depressing, color pics that are scanned look much
better. :)
JoySchtick We tried everything we could get near the scanner.
JoySchtick Er, almost everything. :)
DangardAce I also did a great picture of Sculley with AppleWorks GS and the
Quickie.
JoySchtick DangardAce is an artist, just takes time :)
DangardAce I think that the LightningScan guy had all the scans predone on a
hard drive :)
Tamira I need to get the Scan Man...Have a MAC....but almost $400 is a
little much
Rob Morgan did you try text?
JoySchtick Yes Rob
AFL Scott Anyone got a ship date on DesignMaster?
AFL Scott (I've ordered it)
MikeE22 Mike said late May.
AFL Dyfet Mike was talking 3 to 6 weeks, Scott...
MikeE22 I got it on order at the Fest, along with my updates.
Coach101 Does DesignMaster edit existing resource forks?
AFL Dyfet I don't believe so, Coach...that was it's one weekness...
DangardAce No, only Genesys.
JoySchtick <-- loves Genesys! Still buggy though :(
AFA Gary J How about Genesys? Does it edit after the fact?
Coach101 I love "buggy" programming tools :)
AFA Parik yes gary
AFA Parik how is genesys buggy?
Coach101 With Genesys's lateness, I will wait till I hear reports it is
really
Coach101 out before plunking any money donw..
JoySchtick I bombed big time in the window editor. Got some errors that I
reported
JoySchtick to Michael.
Airship They're comming along fast and furious with the updates on
Genesys.
JoySchtick Its worth the bucks Coach.
AFL Dyfet Genesys only began 'shipping' officially on May 4th (at
Applefest)
DangardAce Still using AC, AS?
Coach101 But it was "premeired" at the last May AppleFest....
DangardAce And rewritten up until now.
Airship Yep. I'm considering beginning a transistion to Orca Pascal
though.
DangardAce Do it, dude! Orca supports the FPE and has decent FP libraries.
DangardAce And OrcaPascal is compatible with Zaplink now. :)
Airship I'm hip deep in new projects though. I want to reach a stopping
place before
Airship I get serious.
JoySchtick <-- just moved over to Orca Pascal, bought it at AFest.
Doctor Why and they've fixed their interfaces. :)
Airship Satelite Tracker GS will probably be my first Pascal release.
A2GS What type of program is that? Or does the name speak for itself?
Airship Pretty much. Plots the paths of Earth satelites and predicts
over-fly times...
Airship Tonight's Sky GS is coming along great! I can't wait to show it
off.
Airship ...that sort of thing.
A2GS Airship, have you considered plotting the trajectory of passing
Comets, etc...
Airship A2GS, check out Comet Finder GS in either the AED or astronomy
forums :)
AFA Parik any exciting news from WWDC
Coach101 Thats your cue Matt....
Matt DTS Well...
Matt DTS ...at an Apple II Feedback Forum about an hour ago, Don Casey
dropped in.
Matt DTS (He's now responsible for Apple's new focus on the Apple II.)
Matt DTS He said, more or less as a direct quote, that "Apple has shot
itself in the foot with the positioning
Matt DTS of the Apple II, and we're not going to shoot ourselves in the
foot anymore."
AFA Parik ()()() Don
A GibberFC does that mean that there will be a repositioning of the Apple II
line??/
JoySchtick But will he follow through? We've heard so much and seen so
little.
AFL Scott Hurray!!!!!!!!!
A2GS Well Pete, That's the exact opposite of what the "Mac Guy" said
yesterday!! :)
AFL Scott Does this mean that Nancy Stark and Jane Lee are out of the
picture?
AFL Dyfet Give Matt a chance to reply...
AFL Marty "We blew it."
Coach101 Let Matt finish... Please
AFA Gary J Yes... :)
Matt DTS If you don't think Jane Lee and Nancy Stark are on your side,
you're just stupid in the head.
Matt DTS Sorry to be so blunt, folks, but I know these people and you have
no idea what they do for Apple
Matt DTS II owners within Apple. Why do you think Nancy's name is one of
them in the IIgs ROM?
Matt DTS As for what else it means, that's beyond my scope. The executives
can decide when something is no
Matt DTS longer confidential. I can't.
A2GS Yeah, Matt, for once we both agree on something which belongs in
the GS' ROM!!!
A GibberFC Matt, I have met Jane and I know she is on our side....
A GibberFC I was just wondering if there might be a reposition of the apple
II in the
A GibberFC line up
A GibberFC That is all
AFA Parik how many AII developers attended today Matt?
Matt DTS The number of AII developers is always small at the WWDC. The
conference is expensive and mostly
Matt DTS Macintosh-oriented. We're focusing on Kansas City and on reaching
Macintosh developers here with good
Matt DTS messages like "You can make Apple IIgs products from Macintosh
ones more easily than you think."
AFA Parik KANSASFEST! KANSASFEST! KANSASFEST! sorry. :) (excited about
GS College!)
DangardAce It's good to hear more positive stuff from within Apple, at any
rate.
Coach101 Matt, how small is "small at WWDC"?
Matt DTS I don't have exact numbers.
DangardAce The College of GS Knowledge.. it sounds like a honey. :)
A2GS That's a GREAT way to improve development on the GS!!
A2GS Let's hope Mac software houses listen.
AFA Gary J Yes.
Coach101 Can you show up for one day, and "pay at the door"?
DangardAce Are there separate areas for Apple II and Mac, or do they share
the same
DangardAce areas just different days?
A2GS Don't you have to be a "Certified Developer"?
A2GS To attend the WWDC conferences?
Matt DTS You have to be an Apple Partner to have been invited. There is
some on-site registration; I'm not
Matt DTS familiar with the details.
Matt DTS Most of the Apple II sessions will be tomorrow.
A2GS Can you give us an idea of what will be covered?
Coach101 The promo's from Apple mentioned some "big announcement" in the
Mac
Coach101 communications area. Was it made? What was it?
Matt DTS Sorry guys, but I was tired and just trying to answer a little
question about what happened at WWDC.
Matt DTS I really didn't expect to need to be an information booth and
don't have that stuff here.
AFL Marty Do you have any info about the GS College that will be held the
day...
AFL Marty before the A2 Central Developers' Conference?
DangardAce Uh oh, dangerous territory.
AFA Parik marty - talk to sarah, she knows a bit more know. very
interesting. a msg on
AFA Parik GENie left a lot more info on it. (sorry, can't remember
details)
AFL Marty Will do. Thanks Parik.
AFA Parik "Apple IIgs system softwrae update, IIgs graphic & animation
techniques,
AFA Parik sounds spectacular, NEW APPLE IIGS SOUND TOOLs, Apple IIgs
programming for the
AFA Parik 1990s, Apple IIgs programming Strategies, 2 for 1, parallel
development, and
AFA Parik advanced Apple IIgs debugging." those are the AII sessions for
tommorow.
Matt DTS I think GEnie and A2-Central are the only people to ask about
Kansas.
AFL Marty Some of us AO folks are going, too. :)
A GibberFC That is ok, Matt.... I am just glad that you show up around
here.
A GibberFC :)
Nuzz I don't know if anyone has said this here, but I'd like to thank
Matt for
Nuzz attending AppleFest and spreading his usual good will.
AFA Parik also SSSi will be at WWDC tommorow selling genesys if ya missed it
at Afest.:)
Hackz Hi I'm from SSSi!
Hackz We aren't at WWDC!
Hackz Tim Swihart is showing Genesys
Hackz :)
A2GS While the place is crowded...."Believe it or not"....I've got a Q
relating
A2GS to programming.....
A2GS Anyone have any ideas on creating an UNDO routine for a paint
program, I've
A2GS only come up with one solution but it uses a substantial amount of
machine
A2GS cycles.
A2GS Anyone????
AFA Gary J A2, I've seen some paint programs do it by writing to two screens
at one time.
A2GS Yes Gary, but how does one keep track of the previously made
changes to the
A2GS display screen?
AFA Gary J When the user selects the next mouse stroke, It the last plot is
copied to
AFA Gary J the other screen.
AFA Gary J (I think the old Koala Pad illustrator did it that way)
A2GS So in other words every time something new is added to the display
screen, the
A2GS screen is copied before the change is made. Correct?
AFA Parik do you mean a undo that reaches beyond 1 step backwards?
AFA Gary J That's if you're working in a paint type mode.
A2GS I am.
A2GS And that was the only solution I could think of, I'm looking for
a
A2GS better/faster one, if one exists.
AFA Parik since the whole screen could change you're gonna haveta do that
a2gs. ;( bye
AFA Parik john/et al
A2GS That's what I thought, but you never know :)
AFA Gary J If you are working in some kind of "draw" mode (as opposed to
paint), you can
AFA Gary J keep track of types of plots, and just erase them.
A2GS Nope, more like a paint program, can't to that?
AFL Scott You don't have to change the whole picture.... just save the
rectangular area
AFL Scott where you drew before you draw. Then keep it in a buffer. When
Undo is
AFL Scott clicked just move that area back but not before you save what was
there first.
A2GS That's an idea, but might be difficult to implement at this stage
in the
A2GS program.
AFL Scott That way you can undo an undo. I've done it. It's not that hard.
A2GS You haven't seen my program :)
A2GS In fact, that's the best idea I've heard so far :)
Nuzz But then it's not an Undo, it's a ReDo
AFL Scott Simple menu item change!:))
A2GS No, it's an UNDO, it backs up one step.
AFA Gary J But if you do what Scott suggests, it can also be a ReDo.
AFA Gary J (Toggle it back and forth)
AFL Scott Yup.
Coach101 And, it is generally called a ReDo at that stage!
A2GS That usually goes for any UNDO routine.
AFL Scott Gary's got the picture!:)
AFA Gary J :)
A2GS Ouch Scott!!!
A2GS :)
AFL Marty (holy recursion, Batman!)
AFL Scott Remember that to follow the guidelines correctly, you should
always tell the
AFL Scott user what he's undoing or ReDoing.
JoySchtick Oh gad! Now we have to tell the user too???? :)_
AFA Gary J You can UnDo a Redo, or ReDo an UnDo.
Nuzz Ah, but if you Undo a ReDo that WAS an UnDo, then it;s a Undo-Redo
:)
Coach101 Why is it "Undo" and "ReDo" (note capitalization) ? :)
AFL Scott It's especially important for paint programs.
JoySchtick and if you goof, then you just plain have a doodoo
AFA Gary J (It's all the same :)
AFA Gary J heheh
AFL Scott Same routine... Really... I just change the undo menu item...:)
Coach101 And it is well known that "doodoo occurs" :)
AFL Marty WhoDo UnDo a ReDo or ReDo an UnDo?
AFA Gary J Yes, Scott. Coach :)
AFA Gary J I do.
AFL Marty UDo?
Nuzz I'm glad that's cleared up..
AFA Gary J Udo2?
Coach101 Whos on first?
AFL Scott LOL!:)
A2GS Crystal clear :)
Tamira as mud
AFL Marty First thing that's ever made sense to me here :)
MikeE22 Crystal Clear Quest?
AFL Scott Paint programs ain't easy... despite popular myth. Something
always pops up
AFL Scott to make them more difficult than they should be.
Tamira LOL
A2GS Well, it all depends on how you go about writing it.
AFL Scott That's true with anything, A2.:)
A2GS You could go insane if you try figuring out the tools and how to
get them to
A2GS work together within a paint program...but on the other hand...if
you do
A2GS everything with custom code...who knows?? Someday you may see
:)
AFL Scott Same here, A2... Someday. :)
A2GS The day may be sooner then you think (I hope :)
AFA Gary J Anyone know when AppleFest SF is? (Or if there is? Or if it's
in SF? :)
AFA Gary J (I plan on being there)
MikeE22 about Sept. 14.
A2GS 14-16
AFA Gary J Sept 14-16. (putting on my calendar)
AFA Gary J :)
A2GS I'm definitely gonna show at the show.
AFL Marty The guy who wants to UnDo ReDos and ReDo UnDos is gonna show at
the show.
JoySchtick Marty, that guy will probably be in a padded room by then :)
AFL Marty LOL
AFL Scott Personally, I hated the Arc tools... I wrote my own... Bezier
curves and
AFL Scott BSplines... only way to fly.
AFL Marty BSpline?
AFL Scott Yeah... a drafting like tool where one can change the shape of the
curve by
AFL Scott moving the points that define the curve.
AFA Gary J Scott, do you have a good reference for that type of programming?
(textbook)
AFA Gary J (or know of one?)
A2GS Scott where'd you get the algorithms from?
A2GS Pulling points.
AFL Scott Sure.... I've got Foley and Van Dam...
A2GS Do they have Arc algo. ?
AFL Scott Computer Graphics Software construction... Lots o code in there...
but the
AFL Scott code can be made better...
A2GS Who makes CGS?
AFA Gary J All it takes it the basic concept, and it's not too hard to take
off from there
AFA Gary J with improvements to examples.
AFL Scott Right.. Computer Graphics Software Construction has tons of Pascal
code just
AFL Scott waiting to be hacked!
A2GS Who publishes CGS, Scott?
A2GS CGSC
AFL Scott Prentice Hall... By Rankin.
A2GS Any good Arc and Ellipse algorithms?
AFA Gary J Thanks for the book tip, Scott.
AFL Scott You're welcome...:)
A2GS Thanx for the info.