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APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
September 26, 1989 10:00 pm Eastern Time
Topic: Open Discussion
Forum Leader: Gary Jacobson (AFA Gary J)
AFA Gary J Welcome to the Apple II Development Forum. I'm Gary Jacobson
(sitting in for
AFA Gary J Dave Sugar (AFL Dyfet), who is getting settled from a move this
evening.
AFA Gary J Tonight our topic is an open discussion, so we can talk about
anything you'd
AFA Gary J like (AppleFest, or whatever). We'll be using forum protocol to
maintain
AFA Gary J some sane-ness here, so if you have a question, type a "?" on a
line by
AFA Gary J itself, or if you have a comment on the current topic, type a "!"
on a line
AFA Gary J by itself.
AFA Gary J Does anyone have any questions or comments they'd like to start
off with
AFA Gary J this evening?
BradleyL1 Can anyone tell me what problems there were in System Software
5.0 that are fixed in 5.01?
AFA Parik BASIC.SYSTEM : the infamous bload problem. GS.OS :
init manager
AFA Parik sometimes unable to sense which screen is up for displaying/format
erase dialog
AFA Parik Pro.FTS: getdirentry returns wrong buf size errors, and it goes
on. i'll
AFA Parik post it in operating system in LETS DISCUSS. Q: BradleyL1 :)
AFA Gary J GA, Dave
Dave Lyons There is officially no such thing as 5.0.1--the official releases
go right
Dave Lyons from 5.0 to 5.0.2. In addition to what Parik mentioned and/or is
going to
Dave Lyons post, 5.0.2 fixes problem where, if you're very unlucky and
running low
Dave Lyons on available memory, you can get a fatal error during a memory
manager
AFA Gary J Q = BradleyL1 (Dave, Gibber)
Dave Lyons operation (while GS/OS tries to get rid of the cache (5.0 doesn't
mess up
Dave Lyons your disk, but you don't get a chance to save your files, either).
Also,
Dave Lyons 5.0.2 has Standard File sorting in a more reasonable order
(ignoring case),
Dave Lyons and the NoteAlert, CautionAlert, and StopAlert calls were fixed so
that they
Dave Lyons never mess up memory they don't own (another
if-you-get-very-unlucky sort of
Dave Lyons bug), and [finally] the GetNumNDAs, AddToRunQueue, and
RemoveFromRunQueue
Dave Lyons calls were fixed to work properly on ROM 1 (on 5.0 they prevent
NDAs from
Dave Lyons receiving keystrokes, until you reboot). done
AFA Gary J GA, Gibber
A GibberFC Thanks both Dave and Parik.... just haven't been able to get the
info I have
AFA Gary J Q = BradleyL1 (Gibber)
A GibberFC needed for a while....... Your info will HELP and hopefully my
Application for
A GibberFC "Partner" with Apple will go through so I have the info at
hand.... thanks GA
AFA Gary J Ok, any other questions or comments?
AFA Gary J GA, SkySinger
SkySinger I've heard some mention by Apple software engineers that they are
toying around
BradleyL1 Were there any fixes to the text editor toolbox, Resource
Manager?
SkySinger with new music and animations tools. Anyone know anything about
them?
AFA Gary J GA, Dave
Dave Lyons I don't know for sure, but the stuff I've heard
Dave Lyons was that there may be versions of some of that stuff available
from APDA
Dave Lyons -eventually- (not now). ga
AFA Gary J GA, Parik
AFA Parik The new music tools will be available early next year. They ROCK.
Its very
AFA Parik simple to use, you just sequence your sounds with a keyboard using
a program
AFA Parik that will be included, save the file, and then pass the file info
and it'll
AFA Parik play your song! Its very powerful, and will blow the amiga, st in
the music
AFA Parik department. ga
A GibberFC (now we need speed) ;)
AFA Gary J GA, Doc
Doctor Why Also, they demoed a 5-8 minute song(s) with 15 instrumnents
Doctor Why And it only took 60k on disk. GA
AFA Gary J Anything else, Sky?
SkySinger Uh... give me a few minutes.
AFA Gary J Looks like Bradley's not here anymore, GA with your question,
RTAFT:
RTAFT Can anyone add any details to the Video Toolkit mentioned in PR on
A'Link?
AFA Gary J GA, Dave
Dave Lyons I'm not sure I understand the question: is it about the VideoMix
Toolst
Dave Lyons for the GS, for use with the Video Overlay card?
RTAFT That's the one!
Dave Lyons Ok...what about it?
RTAFT When will it be ready for shipping?
Dave Lyons It -is- shipping...it's toolset 33, and it comes on the
System.Tools disk
Dave Lyons with System Software 5.0[.2]. As I understand it, APDA has been
shipping
Dave Lyons developer notes for it for at least a couple months now, but I
haven't
Dave Lyons actually checked the catalog for it.
Dave Lyons (GA)
AFA Gary J Anything else, RTAFT?
RTAFT VidClip IIgs Developer's Toolkit is the one, are they the same?
Dave Lyons Nope--VidClip is a 3rd-party product,
Dave Lyons which was demo'd at the Fest. I don't know when that ships.
RTAFT OK, Thanks! GA
Dave Lyons (done)
AFA Gary J Ok Mark, You're next. GA
MarkHulme1 I was wondering what ever happened with Apple Music Label company
suing
MarkHulme1 Apple.
MarkHulme1 With all this music capabilities coming out, how they get around
that?
AFA Gary J I haven't heard anything on that for a while. Anyone else?
Coach101 I am not sure if it is related, but
AFA Gary J (I used to read about that on NewsBytes...now it's here
on-line)
Coach101 the intro to the music tools in volume III contains what I
interpreted
Coach101 as a legal disclaimer about the II-gs not being a musical
instrument.. ga
MarkHulme1 :D
MarkHulme1 Sounds like a way to get around it. GA
AFA Gary J ..just an electronic gadget :)
AFA Gary J GA, Gibber
A GibberFC I heard that part of a Secret Agreement that Ringo Starr is going
to become
A GibberFC The CEO of Apple..... but that is just rumor ;)
AFA Gary J heheh
Coach101 :)
AFA Gary J Maybe he'll pay more attention to the II line.
AFA Gary J (Apple IIGS, the White edition)
AFA Gary J Ok, Coach... you had the next question GA
Coach101 Did I miss something earlier.... Is there officially something
beyond
Coach101 5.0 at this point? ga
AFA Gary J GA, Dave
A GibberFC afk
Dave Lyons Yes--we were telling people about its existence at AFest, but it
isn't
Dave Lyons quite available yet. ga
Coach101 Thanks..... ga
AFA Gary J Sometime this winter, right? :)
Doctor Why cancel my ?
Dave Lyons No, sometime SOON.
AFA Gary J :)
AFA Gary J Great!
Coach101 Next spring for availability from APDA. :)
AFA Gary J Ok, next question is from SkySinger again. GA
SkySinger Parik, about those new music tools... do you know if it handles
the keyboard
SkySinger input as midi data? The implication would be that you could play
any pre-
SkySinger corded standard midi file thru the GS chip with the tools.
AFA Gary J (Parik's not here...:)
SkySinger Anybody else?
AFA Gary J It sounded that way from his description. GA, Gibber
A GibberFC That would put it *TO* close to a musical instrument.....
A GibberFC That would really get the beatles going.... hehe
SkySinger No, its more like a record player.
AFA Gary J GA, Doc
Doctor Why I missed part of the demo, but I believe that it takes MIDI input,
also
Doctor Why they said that there will be an instrument editor available fro
APDA soon.
AFA Gary J Anything els, Sky?
Doctor Why that's soon and not SOON. :) GA
SkySinger Thanks. If it arrives it could make it much easier to put great
music into
SkySinger application. GA
AFA Gary J Parik just FN'ed me and said that it did take MIDI input...like a
sound
AFA Gary J studio.
AFA Gary J OK, next question is from A2GS. GA
A2GS Oh, so soon (startled)...
II GS1 What new products are coming out for the GS and where is it going.
(gs)
II GS1 *blush*
A2GS I ported some files over from the Amiga (ugh) to the GS and I
didn't realize
AFA Gary J Hold on a second, II GS1 :) You're after Coach
II GS1 oh sorry
A2GS but the program on the Amiga was sending files via Xmodem CRC and
I was
A2GS receiving them Xmodem Standard...the files were sent Via a Null
modem cable...
A2GS they seem to have come across fine......Did they????
AFA Gary J GA, Dave
Dave Lyons Yes. ga
Dave Lyons :)
A2GS Thanx :) DAve
AFA Gary J Coach, it looks like you're up next. GA
Coach101 Skip me...
AFA Gary J Ok... can you ask your question again, II GS1?
AFA Gary J GA
II GS1 What is the fate of the Apple IIGS? I have heard many rumors. Why
arent there m
II GS1 more programs for it?
AFA Gary J GA, A2GS
II GS1 yes?
A2GS I don't work for Apple so I can't say for sure and even if I did I
couldn't say
A2GS But,
A2GS that question was asked to Jean Louis Gassee at the opening
Keynote on friday
A2GS at the FEST and he basically side stepped the question on whether
Apple planned
A2GS to drop the II by 1992, by just saying that a lot of Apple
Engineers would be
A2GS unhappy, which to me was clearly not an answer, I have a tape of
the Keynote
A2GS which I just listed to (again) this afternoon and I'm very angry
(personally)
A2GS with that FLIMSY answer!
AFA Gary J Transcribe it and upload it :) I'd like to see some of his
EXACT words :)
A2GS GA
AFA Gary J GA, Dave
Dave Lyons I like the question better when you asked "Where is the GS going?"
*My* GS is
Dave Lyons staying right here in front of my face for a very long time. I
-do- work for
Dave Lyons Apple, so I can't talk about future plans--especially not the ones
I know
Dave Lyons something about. Third party plans I can't talk about because I
don't knw
Dave Lyons anything about them--if there are products you want to buy, write
letters to
Dave Lyons developers & let them know. I don't think the GS software
situation is
Dave Lyons -terribly- bad, but I do think it would be better if -more- people
paid for
Dave Lyons the software they use. It's very discouraging to spend a lot of
time and
Dave Lyons money developing software & not have it sell very well--and it
definitely
Dave Lyons takes more effort to write a -good- piece of GS software than it
does to
Dave Lyons write a text-based app for the Apple II, for example. ga
AFA Gary J GA, Gibber
A GibberFC Frankly...When I get the parts...My //gs will be going about 12 to
15mhz....
II GS1 hows that?
A2GS Huh?
A GibberFC I am working on some projects that I hope will enhance the //gs
experience
A GibberFC but I really get angered by the amount of "Leaked" info about all
the new
II GS1 Well thank you for the thourough answers. :-)
A GibberFC Mac stuff that is being developed and we aren't even let in on
A GibberFC info to make clear a _promise_ that was given to us at Applefest a
scant 12
A GibberFC months ago...
A GibberFC I can't work on //gs stuff all day long...I sort of have to
support a wife and
A GibberFC family.... so I have to take my time..... Keep looking up.. the //
isn't dead
A GibberFC yet
A GibberFC ga
AFA Gary J GA, SkySinger (even though II GS1 left :)
SkySinger At AFest in Boston Steve Glass (I think that's his name) of Apple
told me that
SkySinger the GS is selling better than any individual model of the Mac.
Thats the kind
SkySinger of thing that would keep Apple interested in keeping the GS line
going. Its
SkySinger really a great machine. GA.
AFA Gary J GA, A2GS
A2GS Getting back to what Dave said about buying software...keep in
mind Piracy
A2GS killed the 8-bit Atari and it seems to be doing it again for the
ST the only
A2GS thing currently keeping it alive is it's MIDI support and one
other thing...
A2GS as far as the GS goes (speed wise) for those who were not at the
FEST...
A2GS Bill Mensch put Gassee on the spot when he came up to a microphone
and held
A2GS up 3 12 Mhz 65816 and said that they were ready for immediate
shipping (I got
A2GS a 9 Mhz one from him later (now if I only had a TWGS))
A2GS I'd like to see Apple's excuse for not having a faster GS now!
A2GS GA
Dave Lyons Neat! Hey, with 3 of those chips, we could ship 3 fast machines,
eh? :-)
Dave Lyons (ga)
AFA Gary J :)
AFA Gary J GA, Coach
Coach101 Where is the //gs going.... It is going where Apple wants it to
go....
A2GS :) (I'll take one now!)
Coach101 My reading of Apple's tea leaves, is that Apple is targeting the
Coach101 usage area (lets get Johnny the same machine for home that he
has
Coach101 at school). I do NOT think you are going to find many //gs's in
Coach101 the small business area. The //'s day in business use is past..
Smal
Coach101 business is the province of the Mac/IBM war (and I think the Mac
is a
Coach101 better proposition for a small business than a //gs). I do think
that
Coach101 CLARIS in particular has blinders on in not seeing the usage of
Coach101 their //gs products in the home. I would really like to see
Claris
Coach101 at future Afest's. Now.... Mensch vs. Gassee.....
A2GS 10 rounds
Coach101 The 65816 I pulled out of my machine when I installed my TransWarp
was
Coach101 not made by WDC (General Instrument, I think). Apple's volume and
business
Coach101 stature are such that I doubt they would design/announce/ship a
product
Coach101 that they did not have second sources for all the parts. The loss
of
Coach101 face (which would effect ALL sales of APPLE products) would be
devastating
Coach101 and must be avoided. I doubt you could buy 50,000 65816s @ 12mhz
from
Coach101 WDC.. Mensch has to realize the situation and so (personal
opinion
Coach101 following), Mensch took a cheap shot (unsportmanlike conduct) at
Gassee
Coach101 done.... ga
AFA Gary J GA, Dwight
DwightW1 from one of the apple magazines, it would appear that the //gs is
destined to
DwightW1 become the low end Mac..... ga
AFA Gary J GA, Gibber
A GibberFC Look it takes more than just plugging in a faster chip in a //gs
to make it go
A GibberFC faster..... It would take a whole mother-board redesign.... Now...
A GibberFC 3 years that the //gs has been shipping, we have seen the Mac go
from 8 to
A GibberFC 25mzh.... But please don't tell me in those 3 years that there
hasn't been a
A GibberFC faster 65816 developed...
A GibberFC That has been Apple's excuse ever since the speed short comming
has been in the
A GibberFC limelight.
A GibberFC Now as for Claris....
A GibberFC I taked to Claris Tech Support..... They are telling people to use
system 4.0
A GibberFC to use Appleworks GS.... I asked if they were going to fix it to
work under 5.0
A GibberFC I was told it wasn't broken...... I told them to pull their heads
out of their
A GibberFC ***** that system 5.0 was the best piece of software EVER to ship
for the //gs
A GibberFC and if they wanted to see the sales of Appleworks GS continue...
they should
A GibberFC work the problems out.... compare this to Beagle Brothers who just
Acquired
A GibberFC Multiscribe GS and Multiscribe...
A GibberFC Multiscribe GS has been recompiled to work under 5.0 and
expressloads....
A GibberFC This is the difference in the two companies.... Beagle cares for
the // and the
A GibberFC IIgs and Claris wants to use Appleworks and Appleworks GS as an
"Investment"
A GibberFC If AWGS had been a Macintosh program and a new piece of System
software
A GibberFC shipped and the product was Incompatible with it...Claris WOULD
have a fix for
A GibberFC it in less than 2 months....... Instead of "We are looking into a
possibility
A GibberFC of making it work with system 5.0"
A GibberFC ga
AFA Gary J GA, Doctor
Doctor Why I wasn't there, but what I heard was that Mensch said that he
could supply them
A2GS Have some Oxygen Gibber :)
AFA Gary J :)
Doctor Why in quantity, right now. He implied that Apple has known this for a
while and
Doctor Why has not even contacted him. GA
A2GS Unfortunately Coach, I don't think you have all the facts. First
the GS could
A2GS WHIP a standard IBM PC in many if not most applications, what's
hurting the GS
A2GS in the small business market is not the GS itself, but rather
Apple's marketing
A2GS and in fact a committee of dedicated Apple "People" was setup at
the Kansas
A2GS City conf. at had met with Apple this past Saturday to discuss
among other
A2GS things the Apple ]['s image problem. Second...as far as shipping
the 65816
A2GS Doctor Why bascially summed up most of what I was going to
say...But I would
A2GS like to add...where do you think General Instruments got the Mask
to make the
A2GS 65816 in your GS? From WDC and no place else...WDC does not
actually
A2GS manufacture the 816 they design it and then give to another
company to make for
A2GS them. Mensch isn't going to first make 50,000 816's and then
speak to Apple
A2GS first he's going to get a contract for them and then he'll put in
an order for
A2GS faster 816's in large quantity's. This is Business NOT sports,
right now he
A2GS has finished products of a faster 816 to prove that right now they
ARE reliable
A2GS and I even have test results of the 9 mhz chip I got, he had the
same reliable
A2GS results for his 12 Mhz chips also, he spoke up at the show because
he wasn't
A2GS getting anywhere with Apple until now! GA
AFA Gary J Ok, Coach...looks like you have the last word on this one :)
A2GS :)
Coach101 I understand all of your points A2GS, but I still hold to my
opinion...
Coach101 On the Claris point, I have AWGS and so have had occasion to
visit
A2GS I have NO arguement there!
Coach101 the appropriate folders here on ****. Sir AWGS (Tom Hoke) is
active
Coach101 and posted a note to the effect that the Claris position is that
Coach101 AWGS is certified under 4.0 and not under 5.0. From Tom's
presence,
Coach101 concern, etc, I feel a new release of AWGS will be here in the
not
Coach101 too distant future. By the way, Tom is very helpful with any
problems
Coach101 you may run into..... ga
AFA Gary J GA, Dave
Dave Lyons (Pardon me for being brief: note that AWGS 1.0v2 does ship in
Dave Lyons ExpressLoad format. I -thought- there were some users reporting
it worked
Dave Lyons fine for them under 5.0; maybe they were lucky. I don't use it
regularly
Dave Lyons myself.) ga
Coach101 It works pretty well for me.... The problems I have I feel
Coach101 are probably associated with AWGS irrespective of 4.0/5.0....
Coach101 ga
AFA Gary J Ok... Just a side note on the direction of the IIGS... I actually
went to a
AFA Gary J Macintosh show held here in Phoenix over the weekend, and was
surprised to see
AFA Gary J 12 to 14 IIGS's in the exhibit hall. Hyper Studio was being
demo'ed by one
AFA Gary J company.
AFA Gary J Next question is from Dwight. GA
DwightW1 does any computer company other than Apple support two computers
with
DwightW1 incompatible microprocessors?
DwightW1 .......ga
A2GS I'll answer Dwight in a sec, getting back to what you just said
before Gary...
A2GS I'll bet you none of those machines were being displayed at a
booth owned by
A2GS Apple...
A2GS Now as for Dwight's question...
AFA Gary J You're right! But I was still surprised.
A2GS Yes, Commodore makes a PC clone which I believe is 286 based and
the Amiga
A2GS which is 68000 based and the Commodore 64c which is 6502 based
(assuming they
A2GS are still making it)
A2GS But basically it's main machine is the Amiga which is not the
hottest selling
A2GS thing here in America but seems to be very strong in Europe.
A2GS GA
DwightW1 i asked because Apple probably wants to
DwightW1 move in one direction only. Could differing machines split the
company?
DwightW1 .... ga
A2GS Absolutely NO reason why it should!
AFA Gary J GA, Coach
Coach101 Dwight has a very good point... It would seem that a company
could
Coach101 operate more economically with only one line of processor
chip....
Coach101 Also, does any company actively market two of their products
into
Coach101 the same market? ga
AFA Gary J GA, A2
Coach101 oops... two competing products into the same marketplace
A2GS There is NO reason why the systems should have to compete with
each other...
A2GS Apple is ONE big company not 2 small companies wrestling for the
same market
A2GS they have about 9 Mac systems (lost count) all basically going for
the business
A2GS market and you don't see Apple killing any one of those systems no
matter how
A2GS similar they may be. Now in defense of Apple (for a change)
Gassee mentioned]
A2GS in his keynote address when asked a similar question... that this
the first
A2GS time Apple has ever been faced in the 12 years they've been around
with having
A2GS to deal with 2 successful machines in a wide range of markets and
their
A2GS basically learning one step at a time on how to deal with the
situation.
A2GS Personally, this excuse may hold for a while, but then again
they've had these
A2GS 2 set's of machines (Macintosh/][) in existance for the past 5-6
years. How do
A2GS you explain that Apple? GA
AFA Gary J Ok, We're loosing everyone here... Let's get to Doctor Why's
question
Doctor Why When can we expect SCSI Utilities from Apple that recognizes
resource forks?
A2GS LOL
AFA Gary J :)
Doctor Why I have 5.0 on my hard disk and I'm not happy about not being able
to back it up
Coach101 SCSI utilites and resource forks.... What do you mean...
JDavies1 Is there a Backup utility for use under System 5.0, mainly with
resource forks
Coach101 ProSel-16.... Works like a champ.....
JDavies1 no? (that's what I wanted to know)
Doctor Why I've heard that there was a problem with Prosel-16's backup.
AFA Gary J Yes, ProSel-16 works.
Doctor Why or at least a potential problem.
AFA Gary J What kind of problem?
Coach101 You need the correct version. Anything above 7.0 is OK (I
think)....
Coach101 Try DirectConnect in AUT for more information...
Doctor Why It was mentioned at an Applefest conference, but not in detail
Doctor Why Ok, I'll look there.
JDavies1 Thanks, from me too