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APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
August 1, 1989 10:00 p.m. eastern time
Topic: Special Guest Dave Szetela of Apple Developer Services
and Discussion on IIGS System Software 5.0
Forum Leader: Gary Jacobson (AFA Gary J)
AFP Draco : Well, welcome all to the Apple II Development Forum
Conference.
AFP Draco : I now turn the show over to Gary... (take it away)
Jump Long : Welcome back David
AFA Gary J: As Kent said...Welcome this evening. Tonight we have
a special guest...
AFA Gary J: Dave Szetella...
AFA Gary J: ..who is responsible for managing Apple Development
programs.
AFA Gary J: I'm Gary Jacobson, and I'll be filling in for Dave
Sugar (AFL Dyfet) this evening.
AFA Gary J: (That's Dave Szetela (with one "L"), I'm told :)
D Szetela : Thanks, Gary.
AFA Gary J: We'll be using forum protocol STARTING NOW, so if you
have a question, type a "?" on a line by
JSchober : (hi, quietly.)
AFA Gary J: itself, or if you have a comment on the current topic,
type a "!".
AFA Gary J: I see Parik has the first question, GA Parik.
AFA Parik : Hi Dave (wheres Phil & morf? :) will Apple release
info on writing CDEVs?
AFA Parik : ga
D Szetela : Parik: first, that's moof;...
AFA Gary J: GA, Matt
D Szetela : Second, Phil's engaging in his favorite hobby...
D Szetela : , i.e., buying and selling real estate.
D Szetela : Third,...
D Szetela : for accuracy's sake, I'm manager of
D Szetela : Developer Services, which (this week) does _not_
D Szetela : include Developer Programs, administrators of the
D Szetela : Partners and Associates programs. That said,
D Szetela : I can comment on the programs as inteligently as the
next Apple
D Szetela : Developer support-type, as long as it isn't Matt. And
D Szetela : finaly, I'll have to ask one of my merry men (Matt,
Jim or Dave) to take the CDEV doc question. MM? ga
Matt DTS : "Will we publish CDEV information?" Not for Parik.
<grin>
AFA Parik : :P
Matt DTS : The CDEV sample is torn apart on my hard drive
currently and is being reassembled in better pieces
Matt DTS : and should make it for the September $C7 File Type
Note, as well as Source Code Sampler Vol. 2. GA.
AFA Parik : thanks. ga
Matt DTS : <look at your copies of Phil and Dave's Excellent CD's
- Dave's hair really looks that way.>
D Szetela : Masterfully put, quacamole-san.
Matt DTS : And timing is great on this system.
AFA Gary J: Ok, our next question is from Neil. GA, Neil.
D Szetela : Totally.
RosenNeil : Dave, Not trying to act dumb, but.......... what is a
CDev? :)
D Szetela : Ahhh... a CDEV... though CDEV's are my life, I'll
D Szetela : once again defer to my technical superiors. Lads?
D Szetela : ga
Matt DTS : CDevs are "modules" for the Control Panel New Desk
Accessory in 5.0. Each "icon" is one CDev.
JSchober : BBL
Matt DTS : The name is inherited from Macintosh Control Panel
modules, which have the filetype 'cdev'.
RosenNeil : So if you dont use the Control Panel NDA, you do not
need the CDev folder?
Matt DTS : They provide an easier way to control some system
aspects than DAs, and are easier to write, as...
Matt DTS : ...hopefully you'll see in September. YOU NEED THE
CDEV FOLDER. Certain aspects of the system are
Matt DTS : handled totally by CDevs, and the Control Panel NDA
should not be removed.
Matt DTS : You don't have to use it for everything you can, but
some things are not emulated elsewhere (like
Matt DTS : choosing printers, for example). GA.
RosenNeil : thanks
AFA Gary J: Ok, Coach, you're up next.
Coach101 : Will the Cdev documentation, as opposed to sample
code, be available with
Coach101 : the Septemberish material from APDA? ga
Matt DTS : Coach uncharacteristically missed something. <taken
aback>
D Szetela : Have at it, Matthew.
Matt DTS : The specifications will be in the September *File Type
Note* batch (as in, "with Technical Notes").
Matt DTS : Unrelated to other 5.0 documentation from APDA at any
stage. GA.
Coach101 : Ok, I asked the wrong question... What I should have
asked is will
AFA Gary J: KinkyGS has the next question. GA Kinky
KINKYGS : Today while using 5.0, I removed the
SystemDisk,inserted AW2.0, launched,then
KINKYGS : when I aq
Coach101 : the FileTYpe notes be available from APDA in the
Septemberish time fram..
KINKYGS : quit Aw
Coach101 : ga
KINKYGS : the system went to one moment ples
KINKYGS : ples=please,
Matt DTS : (Coach: with some delay as usual for the duplication
process, yes.)
KINKYGS : and went into monitor * with a bunch of numbers what
did I do wrong
AFA Gary J: GA, Matt
KINKYGS : ga
Matt DTS : Don't use 2.0. It does stupid things like try to
install New Desk Accessories. 2.1 should not...
Matt DTS : ...have the problem. Perhaps Mark has more insight
(I'm done - GA)
KINKYGS : BTW 5.0 is cool! Hats off!
MMunz : WOuld that be the same problem that causes the new Sys
5.0 finder to crash
MMunz : sometimes when you shut down! :-)
AFA Gary J: GA, Dave
AFA Gary J: (Lyons, that is :)
Dave Lyons: What? I don't see the connection between AppleWorks
Classic 2.0 calling
Dave Lyons: DeskStartup (it shouldn't) and any Finder crashing. I
haven't seen the Finder
Dave Lyons: crash at shutdown except when an application called
ClearHeartBeat (which
Jump Long : ooops
Dave Lyons: should *not* be done). Any details available? Any
error messages or
Dave Lyons: numbers on the crash? Any circumstances?
Dave Lyons: (ga)
MMunz : On some occasions, when you use a oa-Q (Shutdown), you
end up in the monitor,
KINKYGS : Was that directed to me Dave?
MMunz : it's happened about half a dozen times.
AFA Gary J: Kinky, perhaps you could post something in the message
boards. See if you can reproduce the
Matt DTS : We've not seen this happen. Can you send us a disk
that reproduces the problem?
Dave Lyons: (Yes, please.)
AFA Gary J: problem and post more information (error messages, or
other stuff that appears on the screen)
KINKYGS : You mean the system disk? Right.
KINKYGS : Sho nuff!
Matt DTS : It could be as simple as someone trashing memory
somewhere. We'll have to see it to find out.
Matt DTS : (GA)
AFA Gary J: The system disk and the program that causes the
problem.
AFA Gary J: Ok...moving along.. our next question is from AE Phil.
GA Phil
IIGS MAN : How can i utilize music sequences?
AE PhilM : To Dave Szetela..this is a two parter (comment and
question) so bear with me...
IIGS MAN : oops(thought you were talking to me)
AE PhilM : First, congradulations for running a first class
divison at Apple. The quality
AE PhilM : responsivness, accuracy (especially DTS) has been
outstanding.
AE PhilM : Second, I assume you heard about the A2 Central
conference, did you get a
AE PhilM : chance to see any of the video taped sessions, namely
Bill Mensch's talk, and
AE PhilM : can you comment on it?
AE PhilM : done
D Szetela : Phil, thanks for the kudos. The credit for
D Szetela : the great technical support you've been seeing goes to
the
D Szetela : best and brightest (and nattily dresses) group of
Apple II
D Szetela : engineers anywhere, the Apple II DTS team. How about a
standing ovation? ga
Matt DTS : Who wears natty dresses?
AFA Parik : ()() standing
D Szetela : <er... that's nattily dressed.>
Coach101 : The secret is out Matt :)
Coach101 : () ()
KINKYGS : APPLAUSE:::::::APPLAUSE
AE PhilM : ()()()() (thanks to engineering also...they have been
pretty great too)
AFA Gary J: Clap clap
D Szetela : OK, enough applause - it'll swell their diminutive
egos.
AE PhilM : :)
KINKYGS : ;)
D Szetela : Next, I haven't seen the video of Mensch's speech.
AIIDTS'ers, do we have a copy? ga
Dave Lyons: (Not that I know of.)
Matt DTS : I don't think we've made our recommendations yet on
which tapes to order.
Jump Long : We should probably order a copy of each...
D Szetela : Well, let's _git_ 'em! Phil, was there anything in
AFA Gary J: Anyone here have information on ordering them?
D Szetela : Mensch's speech that you wanted my comment on? ga
AE PhilM : Thanks anyhow...I just wanted to know what you may
have thought....Bill was a
AE PhilM : bit tough on Apple :))
AFL Vince : (I do, Gary)
AFA Parik : (where do we write to order?)
AFA Gary J: Vince, could you please tell us where we can order the
tapes?
IIGS MAN : protocol!
IIGS MAN : use ? or !
AFL Vince : (A2 Central - Audios are $7.00 each, Vidios are $21.00
each. There is a price breakdown for
AFA Gary J: (and then we'll get on to Parik's question)
AFL Vince : ordering more than one. I'll post it in Forum
Business)
AFA Gary J: Thanks, Vince.
AFA Gary J: GA, Parik.
AFA Parik : something I'd like to see is the great minds who wear
natty dresses write more
AFA Parik : stuff in Apple Viewpoints and that other monthly mag.
Depressing seeing mac
AFA Parik : stuff only week after week. ga
D Szetela : Parik, I agree. We'
IIGS MAN : I have a couple of questions.
D Szetela : need to beat the bushes more to get
D Szetela : some of the Apple II people writing. They just
AFA Gary J: (You'll be right after DR Why, IIGS Man.)
D Szetela : work too damned hard. ga
D Szetela : I'm sure Matt can elucidate.
D Szetela : ga
AFA Gary J: I see we have a couple of comments here... :)
AFA Gary J: GA, Matt
Matt DTS : Having had a lot (or more) to do with the July TN
batch (180 pages done in more or less two weeks)...
Matt DTS : ...I don't think the problem is not writing; I think
it's what we choose to write. I actually was
Matt DTS : thinking about some ViewPoints subjects this week and
was trying to decide on one to try for
HyperRam : BRB
Matt DTS : publication. (with.) But if I do, something else in
the works like FT notes or Sample Code will get
Matt DTS : delayed instead. GA.
AFA Gary J: GA with your comment, Jim
D Szetela : Jim - something to add? ga
AFA Parik : it seems theres a short press time for viewpoints, why
not put in a "whats
Jump Long : What Matt said ^^^... I've been rather busy with
Technical Notes this week, too
Jump Long : ga
AFA Parik : coming" so developers not on alink can find out when
the next tn batch is
AFA Parik : a coming?
AFA Parik : <done>
Matt DTS : They come every other month like clockwork - it would
be like announcing:
Matt DTS : "Midnight will follow 11:59 PM this week." GA.
Doctor Why: I installed 5.0 on my hard disk, including the CDEV
folder and new control
AFA Gary J: Ok, Dr Why has our next question...
Doctor Why: panel, but when I select the new control panel, I'm
told to insert the
Doctor Why: System disk. What gives? GA
AFA Gary J: GA, Jim
Jump Long : Did you use the 5.0 Installer to install 5.0?
Doctor Why: No.
Matt DTS : (may I?)
Jump Long : Then use it and try again.
AE PhilM : Elaborate Matt
Matt DTS : *NEVER* use 5.0 on a system that wasn't installed with
the Installer.
Jump Long : The Installer copies both the data fork and the
resource fork of ALL files
Matt DTS : The relationship between the files is complicated and
all must be present in the right places...
Jump Long : needed for each installation. If you miss one file or
use a copy program that
Jump Long : can't handle the resource fork of a file, your
installation won't work.
Jump Long : ga
AE PhilM : Thank you. We get this call at least 30 times a day
at Applied Engineering.
AFA Gary J: (Like Copy II Plus ...won't work)
Matt DTS : ...what Jim said will happen. Bad things. The
Installer now lets you select multiple scripts
Doctor Why: I was in ORCA
Matt DTS : (with the shift key or the Apple key for discontinuous
selections), so the whole process
AE PhilM : ORCA does not know about extended files, Doc.
Jump Long : (Finder 4.0, ORCA/M's copy and APW's copy don't work
either)
Matt DTS : is pretty easy. Never ever don't use it. GA
Jump Long : Never don't, Matt??
Matt DTS : Never ever don't use the Installer to install 5.0.
Doctor Why: I guesss I've been told! :)
Jump Long : :)
AFA Gary J: :) Ok, IIGS Man has a couple of questions for us.
AFA Gary J: GA IIGS Man.
IIGS MAN : A:Where is system disk 5.0? (One more question after
this)
AFA Gary J: Have you checked at your dealer? It IS shipping.
IIGS MAN : its AUGUST!
AFA Gary J: It will be here on AppleLink on August 7.
Jump Long : On my desk, on Matt's desk, several other places...
including your dealer.
IIGS MAN : Why the 7th?
Matt DTS : It's better than the 8th, for example.
AFA Gary J: GA, Jeff
AE PhilM : On Vulcan :)
IIGS MAN : ha ha. REALLY.
AFA Gary J: :)
Jump Long : The seventh is the day Apple licensing will let them
distribute 5.0
JeffDavies: I can't find a dealer in Western Mass with it and when
I do can they charge
JeffDavies: for it?
Matt DTS : A package with user-level documentation (including
network installation) is available for $49.
JeffDavies: I will pay but I want the APDA release with the notes
HyperRam : I just bought mine today.
IIGS MAN : How much is docs only?
Matt DTS : Your dealer *may* copy the disks for you at no charge,
but he is not required to.
Matt DTS : The APDA release is "in the process" and will be ready
in about 4 to 6 weeks, APDA people tell me.
IIGS MAN : disks? system tools 5.0!
Matt DTS : The dealers do not sell a "documentation only" package.
Matt DTS : (was that all of them?)
IIGS MAN : oh.
IIGS MAN : I have more!
AFA Gary J: Did that answer it for you, IIGS Man?
Matt DTS : Ay yi yi.
AFA Gary J: GA with your next one..
Jump Long : +(HRam)yes
IIGS MAN : B:How can i use Note sequencer files? do i need to be
a programmer?
IIGS MAN : thats it!
Michael515: hi
AFA Gary J: GA, Matt
Matt DTS : I'd like a clarification of "note sequencer files".
There is no filetype/auxtype for sequences...
IIGS MAN : Go matt,answer away!
Matt DTS : ...although there coud be one with little trouble.
What do you mean?
IIGS MAN : The ones used for the MS to Sequencer files.
Matt DTS : (ga)
IIGS MAN : Would it be hard to make an NDA that would play them?
Matt DTS : (MS = Music Studio?) I dunno. Technically, a
sequence is just the format of data fed to the
IIGS MAN : correct!
Matt DTS : Note Sequencer toolset, which uses the Note
Synthesizer to play the notes in sequence.
Matt DTS : It might not be too difficult to do an NDA to play
them, although you'd have the same problems...
IIGS MAN : So i need to be a programmer.:(
Matt DTS : ...that any NDA using sound tools would have (see IIgs
Technical Note #53).
Matt DTS : GA.
Matt DTS : (wait, don't)
Matt DTS : I think the purpose of an MS to Sequence utility would
be to allow developers to use MS as a...
Matt DTS : ...program to create sequences for use in their own
programs. It helps them write their music more
Matt DTS : easily. I don't think it was intended to be a
user-level tool, if I understand correctly. GA.
IIGS MAN : For me it would allow me to play my favorite MS songs
via NDA!
Matt DTS : (really, this time, GA0
Matt DTS : )
AFA Gary J: HyperRam, did you still have a comment?
AFA Gary J: No..he's gone..
AFA Gary J: :)
AFA Parik : (actually Paul Gauthier has written a program to play
MS songs, and i think
AFA Parik : BG music NDA will play them - check in the AMS)
Coach101 : There has been a LARGE number of postings about 5.0 in
the last week
AFA Gary J: Ok, Coach, GA with your question.
Coach101 : or so. Was the volume of reports that have been on
seen an ALPE anticipated?
Coach101 : ga
Matt DTS : Waitaminnute...
Matt DTS : "reports" on what? I haven't read the message area
and don't know to what you refer.
AFA Parik : (you poor boy)
Coach101 : Take an hour, or two, or three..... There have been a
lot of
AFA Gary J: Anticipated? I don't think the 5.0 postings were any
different than the ones that appeard after
AFA Gary J: the release of GS/OS back in September.
Coach101 : this does not work (followed by a yes it does)
followed by.....Where is Dave S tonight anyway??Sugar that is...
Coach101 : I came on ALPE in December, and it seemed that the 5.0
stuff clearly
Coach101 : outdistanced the 4.0 stuff. No pan intended was just
wondering
Matt DTS : Personally...
AFA Parik : [because 4.0 was spread over many forums, 5.0 seems to
be ADV only... in Nov
Dave Lyons: (No pan intended?)
AFA Parik : there was 1000s of msgs!]
Coach101 : if Apple had anticipated the variableness of the
reports... ga
Matt DTS : I expected a lot of the "x crashes" type messages to
result from people who didn't use the Installer.
AFL Vince : (why does everyone confuse SYSTEM 5.0 with GSOS ? :)
Doctor Why: You don't tug on Superman's cape, you don't spit in
the wind, you don't install
Matt DTS : So far, what I am seeing more or less corroborates
that. Please help spread the word to use it.
Doctor Why: 5.0 by anything other than the Installer.
Doctor Why: (Have I been forgiven)
Matt DTS : Also, there were many pre-release copies floating
around, and mixing/matching can be dangerous, too.
Matt DTS : I think I've seen reports of one "5.0" release disk
being passed around with some pre-release parts.
KINKYGS : <------not cornphused
Matt DTS : If you don't know the source of your 5.0 disks, you
might try getting them again and reinstalling.
Coach101 : If everything is v03.00 is that release? or possibly
pre-release?
Matt DTS : There are a LOT of changes, and it will take time to
get word of all of them out to the world.
Matt DTS : Not even the version number is a safe check - some of
the very last disks before release had all the
Matt DTS : version numbers set for final. Check with a friend, a
dealer, or try downloading again (ack!).
Matt DTS : (And note that the AppleShare FST is version 2.01, not
3.00.)
Dave Lyons: Many toolsets are 3.1, not 3.0, too.
Dave Lyons: (Those don't show up during boot, though.)
Case : What problems would we encounter if we use the
pre-released 5.0
Coach101 : Thanks....
Matt DTS : It
Matt DTS : It's like asking "what would happen to my drive if I
pulled the interface card while the computer
Matt DTS : was powered on?" It would be interesting, not fun,
and not predictable.
Case : Ok, I see. That gets the point across!
JeffDavies: I had a customer ask the disk drive question today,
because they did it!(smart)
Matt DTS : (ga marty - we're out of protocol.)
Case : Could we possibly see a new CPU to go along with 5.0?
AFA Gary J: :)
Coach101 : :)
AFL Marty : Are there any changes in the ImageWriter printer
driver which would account...
AFL Marty : for an AppleWorks GS page layout to go awry?
Jump Long : Yes, Marty. If you have any bad fonts...
AFL Marty : (on the screen)
Jump Long : (on the screen??)
AFL Marty : Yes... let me explain...
AFA Gary J: Please :)
Matt DTS : A change to the driver can't affect anything on the
screen.
AFL Marty : If I elect to size the page layout to fit the screen...
D Szetela : 'Scuse me, folks - gotta run. Thanks for inviting me!
Bye.
AFL Marty : the text areas are no longer aligned the way they are
if I use...
AFL Marty : the same program and the same data with System 4.0.
AFA Gary J: Thanks for comeing, Dave!
Coach101 : Good night Dave.
AFL Marty : In fact, the text areas are often off the screen
almost entirely.
Jump Long : See you tomorrow Dave
AFL Vince : (Dennis - This one, in Forum Business)
Dave Lyons: Marty, are you using AWGS 1.0v2 or 1.0v1?
AFL Marty : The scroll bar at the bottom will only take me halfway
across the page.
AFL Marty : AWGS 1.0v2
AFC Mark : The problem lies in that AWGS stores the Page Layout
settings as part of the...
AFL Marty : And yes, I used the installer for System 5.0.
AFC Mark : document... and attempts to restore them when
reloaded- this has caused...
KINKYGS : Bye all. Thanks for answering my ? If problem
presists will be in touch!
AFC Mark : problems within 4.0 itself- by switching from the
standard IW driver and the...
AFC Mark : IWCL... but it really is noticable under 5.0.
AFL Marty : Is there any way to fix this, short of reverting to
4.0?
Matt DTS : If that's the case, then you should be able to:
Matt DTS : 1) Rename your 4.0 ImageWriter driver something like
IW4.0
Matt DTS : 2) Select that as the printer in the Control Panel NDA
AFC Mark : Reset your Page Setup parameters as you originally had
them... and it should
AFC Mark : work just fine.
Matt DTS : 3) Launch AWGS and load your document
Matt DTS : 4) Switch to the new printer driver and save it.
Matt DTS : (will redoing page setup fix it? Does it actually
change the parameters in some weird way?)
AFC Mark : Yes... it does... and I've been trying to figure out
how...
AFL Marty : I did that Mark. It didn't help.
AFC Mark : (No luck so far)Anytime.
AFL Marty : Didn't you just say the print driver wouldn't affect
the screen?
Matt DTS : Oh. Then what I said might not work. (But if what he
said didn't, what I said might.) <geez>
Matt DTS : <things used to be easier>
AFC Mark : Wouldn't it be nice if people followed the rules!!! B-)
AFL Marty : It sure would.
Dave Lyons: I think there's at least 1 way the driver could
indirectly affect the screen--
AFA Parik : (are you taling about Imagewriter CL?)
Dave Lyons: the application probably calls PrValidate to let the
currently-selected driver
Dave Lyons: set up some stuff in the "print record" & then
computes the display based
Dave Lyons: partly on that information. I don't know what, if
anything, was changed in
Dave Lyons: the 5.0 IW driver that would affect the print record.
Matt DTS : Yeah, but the standard values and their locations in
the print record haven't changed to my knowledge
Doctor Why: Well, I have a date with the Installer...Good night,
and thanks.
Matt DTS : in the 5.0 drivers.
AFA Gary J: Goodnight, Doc
Matt DTS : I have a dinner appointment. Good night, and see
everyone next week. (hope that helps, Marty)
Dave Lyons: Yeah, I don't see why they would've changed.
AFC Mark : But, if you don't originally have your page setup laid
out to coincide with the
AFA Gary J: Goodnight, Matt.
AFC Mark : document, it wouldn't load correctly
AFL Marty : I just emailed you one of the files I'm having
problems with Mark.
AFL Marty : The PL looks perfect under 4.0... under 5.0 it's a
disaster.