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AppleLink APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG May 9, 1989 10:00 p.m. eastern time Topic: Apple IIGS Toolbox Programming Forum Leader: Gary Jacobson (AFA Gary J) AFA Gary J OK....I guess we'll get started if we aren't getting a banner.... AFA Parik ???? (question to get into Queue) AFA Gary J Welcome to the Apple II Development Forum. Coach101 from what I have seen about the Ohio Kache system, I can't see 5.0 AFL Vince I disagree, Coach.. Catch my review of all three in Call-Apple in a couple months. Coach101 doing that much. AFA Gary J Tonight's topic (if we decide to stick to it) is Apple IIGS Toolbox Programming JSchober I =might= get a TWGS at 10 MHz. IF the price doesn't rise... AFA Gary J AFL Dyfet is away this evening, so I'll be standing in for him. AFL Vince Did anyone tell you about GeneSys, Gary? AFL Scott Coach, think about how fast the GS is with TWGS AND V5, then multiply disk AFA Gary J GeneSys? Seems like I heard something about that.... AFL Marty ? AFL Scott access speed by about 4... Rocket is what you get!:) Coach101 I agree with you Vince & Scott... Found "Sir AWGS"'s statement JSchober Gawwwwd, Scott. That's... ::faint:: AFA Gary J What is it? Coach101 hard to swallow. On reads, mayube, on writes, forget it... AFL Vince A new product announced at Applefest that may be of some interest to everyone in this forum was AFL Scott Will have to find it to see what he meant... Seems like OS bashing is a fad AFL Scott at Claris! AFL Vince GeneSys.. GeneSys is a program generator for the GS... A VERY nice one AFL Scott Howdy, Big guy! JSchober Program GENERATOR? Hey, Matt... :) AFA Gary J We'll dispense with protocol this evening unless a bunch more people decide to AFA Gary J drop in, Marty. JSchober Hey, Dave. :) (Wow, it's the DTS dudes! :) Matt DTS Hello. Dave is late. JSchober Two seconds is "late"?? :) Dave Lyons Matt is late too. But he'll say it's my fault. AFA Gary J Yes, I do recall now. It generates windows and menus for you? AFL Vince It will create code for Windows, Dialogs, Menus, etc. In C, Pascal, Assm, and the new Res format.. AFL Marty What;s the difference between Genesys and that utility for designing Matt DTS It *IS* your fault. Dave Lyons (See?) AFA Gary J (Hi Dave, Matt) AFL Scott Howdy, Dave! AFL Marty screen menus (I forget its name). JSchober Hmmmm... Vince... like a SuperDuperDLU, huh? AFL Vince DLU, Marty? JSchober Hi, Dwight. Dave Lyons How many 'Fest-ers do we have here? (Matt & I were there.) AFL Marty That's it.... DLU Matt DTS "Genesys", perhaps? AFL Vince Joe, yes only much more.. I was fairly impressed with the potential. AFL Vince Matt, yes. AFA Parik regarding Genesys - a demo will be available on GEnie (and here I guess :) in a AFA Parik couple of days. JSchober Hmmm. Sounds neat. I could use such a thing... :) AFL Vince Parik.. I have it to upload. AFA Gary J Vince, how efficient is the code that is generated? AFL Marty I still don't know the difference. AFL Marty What does GeneSys do that DLU doesn't? AFL Vince Gary... since it mostly generates structures I would guess fairly efficient.. AFL Vince Menus, Windows, Controls, etc.. Also generates tool startup and shutdown.. It's DLU magnified Coach101 Whats the tariff on Genesys? JSchober Welp, folks... I have to run, and study. Yecch. Y'all take care, and see AFL Vince The price was the only thing that depressed me... $125.. AFA Gary J Bye, Joe AFA Gary J Hi Frank JSchober you next week!! :) <SG: it's STILL not fair... but thanks. :) > Matt DTS Tool Startup and shut down is really easy to generate under 5.0 anyway AFA Gary J Hi Dwight JSchober Hi Frank... and bye. 'Night! Coach101 CUL Joe AFL Vince it will sell at Afest in Sept for $75 according the the company.. Matt DTS (Since there are _StartUpTools and _ShutDownTools calls which take tool tables as input) AFL FrankD Hi there, Gary! AFL Vince Matt... unfortunately, we wouldnt know... ;) Coach101 DTS folks..... Any more firm information on actual release date AFL Vince You could always tell us about it.......drool... AFA Parik Lemme sneak this in: was orca/m v2.0 released at AppleFest? I'm gonna call and AFL Scott (that IS nice, Matt!!) Matt DTS This summer, coach. AFA Parik order it tommorow, but would like a nice nights sleep :) DwightW1 hello Coach101 of 5.0, wil you take advance orders through APDA? Dave Lyons I don't know of any ORCA/M announcements, personally. AFA Parik hellllooo? AFA Gary J DTS people, could you fill us in on some of the "nifty" developer type details AFA Gary J of 5.0? Coach101 Did Mike get ORCA-C out the door? Matt DTS There's about 1000 pages of engineering-level developer documentation, Gary. AFA Gary J (Anything more than the press release tells us?) Matt DTS Perhaps more specific questions would be in order. :-) AFL Vince ships in 3 weeks.. AFA Gary J :) Coach101 Then, you had better type fast! AFA Gary J Right! AFA Gary J :) AFA Parik How much faster is EXPRESSLOAD versus standard System Loader? Coach101 Question, how fast is the I/O... I saw talk of 1:1 speed.. What does Coach101 that mean (if true) Dave Lyons That probably depends on a lot of things. (Helpful, eh?) AFA Gary J Such as? Dave Lyons There is *effectively* 1:1 interleave on 3.5 disks now, with ScatterRead: Matt DTS Gary, can you provide protocol so this can work fairly well? <please> Coach101 Anybody else notice the change in Dave recently :) AFA Parik hehe Dave Lyons the driver reads the blocks in whatever order they appear on disk (normally 2:1 still), so you can AFA Gary J OK... Protocol *ON* <just for Matt :) > AFL Vince ? Dave Lyons read a whole track in one revolution. Dave Lyons (ga) AFL Marty <-- hates prorotol AFA Gary J Q = Vince AFL Marty <-- hates protocol, too :) Matt DTS <let me catch expressload first, Gary> AFA Gary J OK, GA Matt Coach101 ? Matt DTS ExpressLoad pre-processes OMF files using shortcuts when possible, and provides for a private data... AFA Gary J Q = Parik (Matt), Vince, Coach Matt DTS ...segment so ExpressLoad knows where segments are, instead of thrashing through the file looking. Matt DTS AppleWorks GS loads approximately four times faster just due to ExpressLoad; Scatter Read drops it to Matt DTS somewhere around 35 seconds. <GA> AFA Parik so the standard loader is still required (eg, no disk space saving) Matt DTS (loading all modules, that is)( AFA Parik ga Matt DTS The standard loader is still required. Expressed files are in OMF; the Loader can load them also. Matt DTS ExpressLoad just gets first crack. <GA> AFA Gary J Ok, anything else, Parik? AFA Parik not for now AFL Marty ? Coach101 Scatter read? AFA Gary J Ok, Vince GA with your question AFL Vince Jim described a new tool that helps with creating a text editor.. can you elaborate a bit on what this AFL Vince might be? AFA Gary J Q = Vince, Coach, Marty Matt DTS 5.0 provides the new tool TextEdit. Matt DTS TE is like LineEdit, except it works on multi-line fields, like a limited word-processor. AFL Vince <-- has followup Matt DTS It allows the editing functions, as well as painting images to ports and retrieving text. Matt DTS It also allows multiple font styles/sizes. It works as a control, which means that TaskMaster Matt DTS will do all the work for you. It's tool #34 and will be explained in the developer docs that will Matt DTS be available when the disk ships. <GA> AFL Vince Has the scrollling through Taskmaster been improved at all? Matt DTS Scrolling isn't all TaskMaster's fault, or even mostly. AFA Parik ? DwightW1 ? Matt DTS It's the fault of people who redraw entire windows instead of just their update regions, mostly. AFA Gary J Q = Vince, Coach, Marty, Parik, Dwight Matt DTS But since QuickDraw has sped up region handling (esp. for rectangular regions), programs who did Matt DTS it either way will see performance improvements. <GA> AFL Vince Thanks, GA AFA Gary J Ok, Coach, GA Coach101 Back to I/O.... Coach101 Does read a track in rev mean that with a 1:1 interleave I could do it.... Coach101 and what was the reference to Scatter Read. GA AFA Gary J Q = Coach, Marty, Parik, Dwight Matt DTS Scatter Read is what we call a new feature in the Apple 3.5 Drive driver in System Software 5.0 Matt DTS (Notice we're not calling this "GS/OS 5.0", because most of the changes were tool changes that have... Matt DTS ...nothign to do with GS/OS). Under certain conditions, the driver actually has enough time... Matt DTS ...to read an entire track in one revolution of the disk, and decode the blocks and interleave later. Matt DTS Since it reads the track in one spin, this can be referred to as an "effective 1:1" interleave, even Matt DTS though the actual interleave on the disk is irrelevant. With 2:1 disks, this gives slightly Matt DTS less (for housekeeping reasons) than a doubling of the speed. Matt DTS (The read must be a multi-block read of more than 5 blocks to memory that is not slow or shadowed, and Matt DTS the read must not be cached. If any of those are true, the timing can't be made.) <GA> AFA Gary J Anything else, Coach? Coach101 I see.... Neat trick..... This would imply that 1:1 interleave Coach101 could even work in certian limited cases.... Though the penalty for Coach101 missing would be attrocious..... Coach101 That concludes my ? GA AFA Gary J Ok, Marty GA AFA Gary J Q = Marty, Parik, Dwight AFL Marty Your AWGS example (35 seconds)... how many modules are being loaded? AFA Parik (hi dave :) Matt DTS All of them. <GA> :-) AFA Gary J Hi, Dave AFL Dyfet Hello :) Coach101 Good morning Dave Dave Lyons ! AFL Marty I understand that programs must go through a procedure... AFL Marty in order for ExpressLoad to work..... AFL Marty is this something the end user can do or must I (we) wait for.... AFL Marty an upgrade from software vendors to take advantage of ExpressLoad? Matt DTS yes and no. AFA Gary J Q = Marty (Matt, Dave), Parik, Dwight Matt DTS The utility Express (or ExpressIIgs in MPW land) converts a load file to ExpressLoad format. Matt DTS This is necessary before ExpressLoad can use it, as this utility does the pre-processing. Matt DTS The end user with APW or similar *could* do this, but there's the caveat that ExpressLoad is unable Matt DTS to support some Loader calls. Specifically, LoadSegmentbyNumber, UnloadSegmentbyNumber (because Matt DTS Express rearranges the segments for maximum speed) and GetLoadSegInfo (because Express doesn't use Matt DTS the Loader's data structures). If the program uses those calls, it should *not* be Expressed. Matt DTS However, we find that their use has been pretty limited, especially since Load/UnloadSegByName is Matt DTS so much more useful anyway. So it's possible, but not recommended for the faint of heart. AFL Marty Where does this leave the end user without APW or similar? Matt DTS I did it on my DESK.ACCS directory at home and got a 33% decrease in boot time, for example. Matt DTS The end user who's not knowledgeable is always better off waiting for upgrades. Coach101 ? Matt DTS (There are certain universal truths, and one is that you can't always get blinding speed completely AFL Marty Let me offer an example... Matt DTS transparently. ExpressLoad is one of those instances. Sorry.) AFA Gary J Q = Marty (Matt, Dave), Parik, Dwight AFA Gary J Q + Coach :) AFL Marty I'm thinking of something like Music Studio, which takes an eternity AFL Marty to load now.... AFL Marty The company which publishes it isn't exactly tops in product support. What AFL Marty can the end user do in this case (if anything)? Matt DTS The user is in the same place he is now, and was a while back without APW when COMPACT came out. Matt DTS There are certain things which usually work but can't be guaranteed, like COMPACTing or EXPRESSing AFA Parik SOL? :) AFL Marty Between a rock and a hard place. Matt DTS programs you didn't write. That's why they're developer tools we strongly encourage developers Matt DTS to use. Sorry. <GA> AFL Marty done AFA Gary J Dave, did you want to add something? AFA Gary J (Dave Lyons) Dave Lyons Coach, wasn't paying close attention a minute ago: there would be almost no point to actually having Dave Lyons 1:1 interleave, since you almost get it anyway, *some* of the time, but not all of the time. Sorry Dave Lyons to regress. :) Dave Lyons (ga) AFA Gary J Ok, Parik, GA with your question Coach101 Hmmmmm.... If you read a whole track! Partial tracks could Coach101 still (maybe, some of the time) benefit from 1:1 AFA Parik can fonts be placed anywhere now, instead of just the font directory? and how AFA Gary J Q = Parik, Dwight, Coach AFA Parik is data fork editing going to be handed, a new toolset? or will the init file AFA Parik handle everything? ga Matt DTS Fonts still go in the FONTS directory. The Font Manager does not support adding fonts from Matt DTS resources on 5.0 since the search paths and all were very complicated and didn't make it in. Matt DTS As for "data fork editing", this I almost completely fail to understand. Matt DTS <GA> AFL Dyfet Would you care to clearify that, Parik? AFA Gary J Anything else, Parik? AFA Parik changing something inside the resources.. (eg, changing data w/o program) Matt DTS No resource editor is provided with the System Software. <GA> AFA Parik ga AFA Gary J Ok Dwight, you're up. DwightW1 why a 'sput' background noise with each played note utilizing the note... AFA Gary J Q = Dwight, Coach DwightW1 synthesizer? (ga) Matt DTS <Dave's gonna take this one> Dave Lyons I don't know anything about it. Have you tried Dave Lyons the program on another machine & gotten the same noise? DwightW1 dave, the program is my own, utilizing only my IIgs DwightW1 the sound is from BACH's prelude Dave Lyons If you have a fan, see if removing it makes any difference; try it on another person's machine & DwightW1 i meant song Dave Lyons see if the noise is still there. I don't think there is anything inherent about the note Dave Lyons syntehsizer that makes you always get noise. Dave Lyons (ga) DwightW1 will try and thank you (ga) AFA Gary J Coach, GA with your question AFA Gary J Q = Coach Coach101 Thanks... Coach101 Do not mean to belabor a point... But I have not completed my Coach101 Developer package quite yet and was wondering if the summer release Coach101 meant through APDA with docs. Or if the release will happen in Coach101 summer and the docs (through APDA) for non-developers will follow some Coach101 time later. GA Matt DTS Software and documentation will be available this summer. <GA> Coach101 Thanks GA AFA Gary J Any idea if this means early or late summer??? :) DwightW1 ? Matt DTS It means summer. Coach101 :) AFA Gary J Figures :) AFA Gary J GA Dwight Coach101 Summer.... In which hemisphere? AFA Gary J Q = Dwight DwightW1 a side question...... DwightW1 have you noticed how few people are here tonight...... AFA Parik hangovers :) DwightW1 is this tied to the fact that the development forum was completely Coach101 ? DwightW1 left out of the applelink schedule for this entire month. why DwightW1 /wjy? AFA Gary J It may have had something to do with the fact that we had no banner tonight as AFA Gary J well. AFL Scott (Good question) AFL Dyfet Yes, that is. AFL Dyfet Especially since May was on file from Jim... AFA Gary J :) AFL Dyfet The first schedule I had to submit was for July, in fact :) AFA Gary J Jim's not around this evening to answer that one... AFL Scott (May was the first month we were supposed use the new form... Jims was in old AFL Scott format, I think) DwightW1 ....i see (ga) AFA Gary J Q = Coach AFA Gary J GA, Coach Coach101 Matt, Coach101 Some time back you floated a trial balloon about ALPE becoming the Coach101 place for CDs to get support (as opposed to ALAE). Anything come of Coach101 the discussion? GA AFA Gary J Good question, Coach. AFL Cheryl hi all...BRB...blew myself up here :( Matt DTS If you mean has an announcment been made, no. But we're still very interested in opinions through... Matt DTS ...all the usual channels so we can keep them on paper until the Apple XXVIII is outdated. <GA> AFL Dyfet Well, my opinion is do it :) AFL Marty ? AFA Gary J Anything else, Coach? Coach101 What I meant (and you answered) is that the idea is alive and the issue Coach101 not yet resolved... Thanks.... Coach101 GA AFA Gary J Q = Marty AFL Vince I heard lots of talk about this at afest with rilla(?) and Q folks... :) looks good...real good.. AFA Gary J I'd sure like to see it as well. AFA Gary J GA, Marty AFL Marty Pardon my tone.... AFL Marty but how many opinions does DTS need? AFA Gary J :) AFA Parik 32768... AFL Marty Everyone I've heard speak about this has been in favor of the idea... AFA Parik then the high bit is turned on. AFL Marty so what's taking so blasted long. Coach101 Overflow..... 32767.... Or, for Matt, stop at 10 AFL Marty Come on... this is a serious question. AFA Gary J Ask people on GEnie, they may not agree :) Coach101 :) AFA Gary J (But so what???) AFL Marty I have.... and they agree for the most part. Matt DTS The opinions have been taken under advisement, Marty. That's all I can say. <GA> AFL Marty My principal talks that way. AFL Marty done AFA Gary J Q = <empty> AFA Gary J Dave asked earlier, but how many people here DID attend AppleFest? AFA Parik not me AFL Cheryl I did!!! AFL Dyfet I wasn't :( Coach101 Not me AFL Cheryl (re-hi, all :) AFA Parik who's gonna attend DeveloperWorld? DwightW1 couldn't make it AFA Gary J I wasn't AFA Parik (not me again :) AFL Vince I did AFL Scott Was there, too.. DwightW1 would love to go but i know i will miss it also AFL Scott NOT at Developerworld... or whatever... $$$ AFA Parik who's gonna be at KansasWorld then? :) AFL Marty <--- KansasFest AFA Parik (not me, once more...:( ) but at SF Fest, i'll be. AFL Vince Would have liked to have gone to Spring Dev Conference, but I cant afford to be an Apple developer.:) AFA Gary J Dorthy and Toto too. AFL Marty <-- on a panel :) AFA Parik control? AFL Marty I have no control :) DwightW1 as an offshoot to Vince's response, it seems easier to become an Apple AFL Marty Discussion of fonts and stuff like that. DwightW1 developer now! AFL Marty Mark! AFA Parik ohhh! with mark I bet! (speak of the devil :) AFA Parik Only if you got extra $$ lying around Dwight (I don't) AFC Mark Uh Oh... B-) AFA Gary J Right, Dwight. Money talks. AFL Vince If you've got a spare 6 bills or so it is... AFL Cheryl what is a KansasFest????? DwightW1 ha ha ha Dave Lyons I'll be at KansasFest. AFL Vince A2 Central's developer conference Matt DTS In the lack of anything except generic criticism of the departments where I work, I'll be leaving. AFA Gary J KansasFest = A2 Central's conference AFL Marty It's a rest home for folks who over-punctuate their questions :) Matt DTS See y'all next week. AFA Parik bye matt. :) Coach101 Good evening Matt,,,, Coach101 Have a nice nite Matt! AFL Dyfet Night Matt. AFA Gary J Goodnight, Matt. Thanks for coming. AFL Marty Party hearty Matt! AFC Mark night, Matt AFA Parik Question: Will technotes be more and more coming online a bit faster? I dunno AFA Parik if the march technotes are online yet, they're good. Not sure when my CD AFA Parik expires, but when it doesn't i'd like to have another source of TN besides APDA AFA Gary J March's technotes aren't online yet. Jim L has said they should be on in a AFA Gary J week or so. AFA Gary J (Too much to prepare for in AppleFest and Developer's conference)