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LIST FILE ON MARGIN IS 80 STATUS: ALL ALLOWED NUMBER OF LINES: 629 1 If you are in need of help, you need but ask.... 2 ********************** REMOVED 22 FEB 84 ******************* 3 Welcome to BWMS (BackWater Message System) Mike Day System operator 4 ************************************************************ 5 GENERAL DISCLAIMER: BWMS IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INFORMATION 6 PLACED ON THIS SYSTEM. 7 BWMS was created as an electronic bill board. BWMS is a privatly owned 8 and operated system which is currently open for use by the general public. 9 No restrictions are placed on the use of the system. As the system is 10 privatly owned, I retain the right to remove any and all messages which 11 I may find offensive. Because of the limited size of the system, it will be 12 periodically purged of messages. (only 629 lines of data can be saved) 13 To leave a message, type 'ENTER' and use ctrl/C or break to get out of the 14 ENTER mode. The message is automatically stored. If after entering the 15 message you find you made a mistake, use the replace command to replace 16 the line. To exit from the system, type 'OFF' then hang up. 17 Type 'HELP' to see other commands that are available on the system. 18 ************************************************************ 19 20 Gary: It sounds like you have a rather common misconception regarding 21 "non-profit" organizations. They CAN make money, they just can't distribute it 22 as profits to stockholders/owners/etc. 23 I wasn't aware of this myself, until I became treasurer of a local branch of a 24 non-profit group. 25 26 Some people have been reading things into my msgs regarding religion. 27 I suggest they re-read the msgs, this time WITHOUT making any assumptions about 28 what I "mean" by what I wrote. 29 I did NOT say that I don't believe in God, neither did I say that I 30 do believe. I said I have doubts about organized religion. No more, no less. 31 32 Piper: I agree that some on this system do seem to display the attitude that 33 you speak of, but very few have said so in as many words. As you can see from my 34 above comments, they should be given the benefit of the doubt. I, myself, feel 35 that all religions deserve equal respect. I do alter this "base level" based on 36 12 38 ______________________________________Leonard___________________________________ 39 "Ah, Piper, after that song I would dearly love to sing 'Men of Harlech'. 40 I must apologize though, as I seem to have forgotten a few lines. Thusly, I 41 shall instead sing an SCA song derived from it" 42 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 43 Men of Reisling (words: Deirdre Muldomhnaigh, tune: Men of Harlech) 44 Men of Reisling, stop your dreaming, 45 Can't you hear the bastards scheming 46 Overthrow of all of Reisling 47 At your very door? 48 49 Men of Reisling, none to steady, 50 On your feet and the ready; 51 Even though it has been said ye 52 Cannot find the floor. 53 54 Raise your glass and quaff it; 55 Your nightshirt, you must doff it; 56 Leave your thoughts beside her cot, 57 But get your body off it! 58 59 Men of Reisling, arm for battle, 60 They are stealing all your cattle, 61 And your e'en more precious chattel: 62 Your wenches and your beer! 63 64 Stagger on the fleeing foemen, 65 Drunken knights and drunken yeomen, 66 And some very drunken bowmen 67 Tangled up in twine. 68 69 We'll pursue the foe and harry 70 Any who should chance to tarry; 71 Another day, they'll be more wary 72 Who they rob of wine! 73 74 Reislings, do your duty; 75 They're fleeing with their booty! 76 Your wives you'll miss, but worse than this, 77 Of wine the swine would loot ye! 78 79 Let them have the keeps and towers; 80 We'll protect the casks and bowers-- 81 Castles fall, but nothing sours 82 Loving and good wine! 83 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~BARD~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 84 85 mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm + - / * mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm 86 87 Special Note to The Mad Actor: I do sincerely regret the fact 88 that my chosen designation causes the screen erase. It would 89 seem to me that terminal programs should not act on valid 90 ASCII characters in some special way. I changed the heading 91 for this note to be sure you can read it. 92 93 Concerning your request for information on the floating 94 hyper-space channel, I hardly ever whisper in the pines 95 but perhaps we can devise some other means of exchange. 96 97 mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm The Mesolithic Mathematician mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm 98 99 *********************************************************** 100 101 Leonard: Being in social services, a former trustee of a 102 church, and responsible for a tax exempt fund for the Mental 103 Health Association I know more about non-profits than you 104 appear to assume. 105 106 A lunar mining station would require a tremendous amount of 107 start up capital. The General might be right. Perhaps the 108 only way to get started would be through a non-profit, which, 109 in practical terms, means depending on the government. 110 111 The problem with getting all your support from one source is 112 that you lose the power to direct the project in the way you 113 envision. The General is a man of vision. I fear the 114 government would be less than sympathetic to his idealism. 115 116 Finding a way to include private enterprise would offer a 117 balance. If the General could play the government off against 118 private enterprise he could make himself a powerbroker. This 119 would seem the most practical way to create his project as 120 near to his vision as possible. 121 122 The government is far to cynical to go for a project run by 123 volunteers. Even John Kennedy, who created the Peace Corps. 124 and VISTA, did it to get the hippies out of the hair of 125 government. 126 127 Perhaps if he included a killer lazer gun or atomic missiles 128 capable of destroying cities he might have better luck with 129 funding. 130 131 Contremon Valerius: Very sad to hear you're leaving. You will 132 be missed. 133 134 General Maciabo: Good luck with your plans. Perhaps someday 135 idealism will triumph...even though it seldom has in the past 137 138 Gary 139 140 *************************************************************** 141 142 Fair Patrons, 143 I have been mulling over a rather unique phenomenon of the current culture. 144 Single parentage by design. 145 Unique in the sense that single women voluntarily decide to have children 146 without benifit ( or hindrance as the case may be ) of family ( meaning stable 147 father figure etc. ) I am by no means decided on the matter -- just concerned 148 over the welfare and future dispostition of the children involved. 149 Does not having a tangable quantifiable father by maternal design as opposed 150 to being an orphan have any detrimental effects ? 151 Does this signal a new order of family (?) life ? 152 In terms of social acceptance ( peer groups etc. ) what will be the effect ? 153 154 Your comments please ! 155 156 :::::::::::Alex::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: 157 alex 158 where is it established that there must be a father to raise the child? surely there are enough father figures in the world fo 159 surely there are enough father figures for the child to emulate. 161 break 162 163 164 To the above:(is your name "Break"?) 165 There are certainly father-figures aplenty, but many psychologists feel that for proper development (emotional andsocial) 166 to occur, parents of both sexes should be present, especially during the first 4-6 years. This of course opens up the can 167 of worms "what is proper development", which I choose not to delve into at this time. 168 MesoMath: Surely you aren't suggesting the Postal (dis)Service! How Mesolithic can you get? 169 && The Mad Actor && 170 ?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! 171 DAVER, MACAIBO, CONTREMON........WHAT CAN I SAY?........YOUR GREAT 172 WRITING STYLE WILL BE SORELY MISSED! I WOULD IMAGINE THO, THE BBS IN 173 CALIFORNIA HAVE NO IDEA WHAT'S IN STORE FOR THEM.......BUT WE DO! 174 ?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?DEBORAH?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? 175 ALEX: I, TOO FEEL CONCERN FOR THIS GROWING PHENOMENEN. I WAS FROM A 176 SINGLE PARENT FAMILY TO SOME EXTENT, THO I DID HAVE A STRONG MALE FI- 177 GURE IN MY LIFE DURING MY SO CALLED FORMATIVE YEARS. GRADE SCHOOL AGE... 178 I DO BELIEVE THAT IT IS QUITE IMPORTANT TO HAVE BOTH INFLUENCES WHILE 179 A CHILD IS YOUNG, BUT IF THE TWO PARTIES INVOLVED HATE EACH OTHER, 180 THE LACK OF ONE OR THE OTHER IS LESS DETRIMENTAL. IT WAS QUITE A RE- 181 LIEF ON ALL WHEN MY PARENTS DIVORCED, AND I BECAME A MUCH MORE STABLE 182 CHILD WHEN THE HATEFUL ATMOSPHERE WAS REMOVED. BUT EVERYONES CIRCUM- 183 STANCES ARE DIFFERENT. 184 I ALSO HAVE 3 STEP SISTERS THAT WERE TOTALLY RAISED BY ONLY A MOTHER. 185 THEY ARE SO NORMAL IT'S UNBELIEVABLE! MY FATHER JUST RECENTLY MARRIED 186 THEIR MOTHER. 187 I ALSO HAVE SOME VERY CLOSE FRIENDS THAT WERE RAISED ONLY BY THEIR 188 FATHER, AND THEY TOO ARE FINE. I THINK IT DEPENDS ON HOW MUCH OF A 189 PARENT THE PERSON INVOLVED IS, AND HOW CLOSE OF A RELATIONSHIP CAN 190 BE MAINTAINED BETWEEN ADULT AND CHILD. 191 L 192 ***************************************************************** 193 TMA: I AGREE WITH YOUR CONCERN ABOUT NOT WANTING TO INFRINGE UPON 194 THE FREEDOM OF SPEECH OF OTHERS, BUT VANDLISM IS NOT AN EXERCISE 195 IN FREE SPEECH, IT IS INSTEAD AN INFRINGMENT OF THE RIGHTS UPON 196 THOSE WHO IT IS DONE. THIS EVEN INCLUDES LIBAL (RIGHTFULLY SO) AS 197 IT IS AN ATTEMPT TO HURT ANOTHER INDIVIDUAL VERBALY. VANDLISM IS 198 DESTRUCTION OF ANOTHERS PROPERTY, AGAIN AN INFRINGMENT UPON 199 ANOTHER (OR IN THE CASE OF PUBLIC PROPERTY, ALL OF US). ONE OF 200 THE NICE THINGS ABOUT BWMS BEING SO OPEN, IS NOT ONLY THAT ANYONE 201 CAN SAY ANYTHING THEY WANT, BUT ALSO IT IS SELF POLICING. I HAVE 202 VERY SELDOM ENCOUNTERED POLICING EFFORTS WHICH WERE TOO EXTREME. 203 WHILE THERE HAS ALWAYS BEEN A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF VANDLISM, IT IS 204 SOMETHING THAT ONE LEARNS TO LIVE WITH. HOWEVER, REPAIRS SHOULD 205 BE EFFECTED AS SOON AS POSSIBLE AFTER SUCH, OR IT GIVES THE 206 INDICATION TO OTHERS THAT VANDLISM IS OK. WHICH IN MY OPION IT IS 207 NOT! SO ANYWAY, YES THIS SYSTEM IS OPEN TO ALL TO USE IT AS THEY 208 WISH, IT IS NOT HOWEVER ACCEPTED THAT OTHERS WORKS (INCLUDING 209 MINE) BE VANDLIZED. THAT IS NOT IN ACCORDANCE WITH BASIC 210 FREEDOMS, AND NOT CONSIDERED ACCEPTABLE HERE EITHER. THERE IS ONE 211 AREA WHERE I DO STRAY FROM THE STRICTEST SENSE OF THE FREE SPEECH 212 CONCEPT, AND THAT IS FOUL LANGUAGE. I DO NOT APROVE OF IT ON THIS 213 SYSTEM BECAUSE IT IS OPEN TO THE PUBLIC, AND MANY YOUNGER 214 INDIVIDUALS DO LOG ON TO THE SYSTEM. WHILE I COULD CARE LESS 215 ABOUT THE LANGUAGE OTHERS USE, I DO CONSIDER IT IMPROPER TO 216 EXHIBIT SUCH DISREGARD FOR ITS USE TO YOUNG IMPRESSIONABLE MINDS 217 POSSIBLY GIVING THEM THE IDEA THAT IT IS OK TO TALK THAT WAY. 218 UNTIL SUCH TIME AS THEY ARE MATURE ENOUGH TO UNDERSTAND THE TRUE 219 CONTENT OF WHAT IS SAID, I FEEL THAT SOME DEGREE OF RESTRAINT 220 SHOULD BE OBSERVED. WHILE I DO FEEL THAT RESTRICTING THE LANGUAGE 221 IN THIS FORM IS APPROACHING ON THE EDGES OF RESTRICTION OF THE 222 FREEDOM OF SPEECH, AND IN FACT IF TOO MUCH EXTREMISM IS TAKEN IN 223 THAT REGARD IT DOES INDEED FALL IN THAT CATAGORY IN MY OPINION, 224 YET THERE IS THE WIDER PICTURE OF CONSIDERING INFRINGMENT UPON 225 THE CHILDS RIGHTS GIVING FALSE VALUES, THUS DISRUPTING THEIR 226 LIVES IN AN INDIRECT WAY. BASICLY MY FEELINGS IN THIS REGARD IS 227 IF IT REQUIRES SOME DEGREE OF EFFORT WHICH IS NOMINALLY 228 PREVENTIVE TOWARDS ALLOWING A CHILD TO GAIN ACCESS TO 229 DISREPUTABLE MATERIAL (WE WON'T GET INTO WHAT DISREPUTABLE IS AT 230 THIS TIME) THEN IT IS IN AN ACCEPTABLE RESTRICTED FORM. IF 231 HOWEVER IT IS FREELY AVAILABLE FOR EASY ACCESS WITH NO REGARD FOR 232 WHO MIGHT VIEW IT, THEN I FEEL THAT IT IS AN INFRINGMENT, AND 233 SOMTHING SHOULD BE DONE ABOUT IT. I REALIZE THAT THIS IS A TOUCHY 234 AREA, AND A REAL PROBLEM IS DEFINING WHAT IS NOT ACCEPTABLE, AND 235 WHAT IS, BUT I DO FEEL THAT IT IS THE PROPER THING. I ALSO 236 BELEIVE THAT THESE SORTS OF CONCEPTS REQUIRE CONTINUAL REVAMPIMG 237 AS THE VALUES OF SOCIETY CHANGE. THE TRUE MEANING THAT IS 238 IMPARTED UPON A WORD OR ACTION CHANGES WITH TIME, AND CAN BECOME 239 NASTY OR GOOD DEPENDING ON THE CURRENT VALUES. 240 ****** ENOUGH ALREADY! ******** CISTOP MIKEY ******************* 241 P.S. PAM, I HOPE YOU INACTIVITY IS ONLY DUE TO NOT BEING ABLE TO 242 GET ON EASILY (THOUGH I HOPE EVEN THAT ISN'T TOO MUCH A PROBLEM 243 FOR YOU) AND NOT BECAUSE YOU'VE SOURED ON BWMS. YOUR INPUT HAS 244 ALWAYS BEEN INTERESTING AND INFORMATIVE. BESIDES, I LIKE IT! 245 **************************************************************** 246 ALEX I DON'T FIND SINGLE WOMEN HAVING CHILDREN WITHOUT BEING MARRIED 247 A PROBLEM. HOWEVER I DO KNOW OF ONE WOMAN WHO DID THIS WHILE ON WELFARE 248 AND WITH EVERY INTENTION OF REMAINING ON WELFARE. THIS I FIND REPUGNENT 249 PERHAPS BECAUSE INDIRECTLY I WIND UP PAYING FOR THE SUPPORT OF HER CHILD. 250 251 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% PEEPER %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% 252 DEAR NANCY: 253 AFTER ONE DAY OF SEEING YOUR ARTICLES, I AM ALREADY A FAN 254 I WOULD LIKE TO HEAR FROM YOU, PERHAPS HAVE A GOOD ARGUMENT SOMETIME 255 - CRUD 256 257 EXIT 258 && && && 259 Cistop Mikey: 260 Much of my previous statement was due to my lack of understanding about 261 your definitions of "open". Having heard your desires in a bit more detail, 262 I will return to my practice of throwing out the "garbage" I find on the 263 board. I myself agree with the attitudes you expressed above, but in my 264 lack of such detailed knowledge I gave the most liberal interpretation I 265 could to your sign-on words, feeling that it was better to err in the 266 direction of leniency, and knowing that if my choice was wrong I would 267 find out about it (as I have). If I'd simply wiped the material without 268 comment, I'd have never known for sure. 269 To All Users: 270 This Is Your Board, Too. Help Keep It Clean. 271 The Janitor (also known as...) 272 && The Mad Actor && 273 P.S.-- General, Contremon V.,et al, 274 I'll miss you too. I was hoping to get you involved in the tale now 275 unfolding in the Inn. Enjoy your new home, & call as often as you can! 276 Vale, 277 && TMA && 278 CONCERNING THE ON GOING CONVERSATION ABOUT RELIGION; 279 THERE ARE MANY POINTS I COULD TOUCH ON HERE BUT BECAUSE OF LACK OF TIME 280 I WILL JUST HIT A FEW OF THEM. 281 THERE IS NO ONE 'TRUE' RELIGION NOR IS THERE ONE 'TRUE' GOD. 282 EVEN IF ALL PEOPLE WERE TO CALL THEIR GOD BY THE SAME NAME, EACH 283 PERSON WOULD HAVE HIS OR HER OWN CONCEPTION OF WHAT THEIR GOD WAS LIKE; 284 FATHERLIKE 285 FORGIVING 286 STERN 287 UNFORGIVING 288 NO TWO PEOPLE CAN EVEN TOTALLY AGREE ON SOMETHING RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEM 289 LET ALONE A CONCEPT! 290 CHRIST HIMSELF SAID "IN MY FATHERS MANSION ARE MANY ROOMS". MEANING, OF 291 COURSE THAT ALL WHO GAIN THE SANCTUARY OF HEAVEN NEED NOT HAVE COME BY 292 THE SAME PATH. 293 GOD DOES NOT WANT YOU LTO SUFFER PAIN. THAT IS AN INEFITABLE 294 CONSEQUENCE OF HUMANESS, OF BEING A THINKING, FEELING 'CHOOSING' BEING. 295 WE ARE GIVEN THE RIGHT TO CHOOSE OUR WAYS; TO, IF WE WISH DISOBEY THE 296 DESIRES AND COMMANDMENTS OF THE LORD. 297 AND THE LAST COMMANDMENT - THE ONE THAT TAKES PRECEDENT OVER ALL 298 OTHERS IS - LOVE ONE ANOTHER!!!! 299 THERE IS BALANCE IN NATURE 300 JOY - SORROW 301 BIRTH - DEATH 302 GOOD - EVIL 303 TO TRY TO, OR WISH TO HAVE ONE WITHOUT THE OTHER IS TO DENY THE 304 FUNDAMENTAL NATURE OF REALITY. 305 ENOUGH FOR NOW 306 XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX SNK XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX 307 (THE SNOT NOSED KID) 308 ppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppp 309 The piper moved off in the direction of the promised drink. On the way 310 toward the table where a man dressed in gray and a young lady sat, he hesitatied 311 for a moment: 312 "A moment, sir, I should reply to the young lady speaking on religion -- 313 314 Deborah -- Forgive me for nearly forgetting to reply, but one thing occurs. 315 In my question that I asked before, perhaps I should ask you specifically -- 316 what if the bible is *not* divinely inspired, and merely the transcription 317 of the records of a primitive nomad tribe (the old testament) and the 318 interpretations of the teachings of a slightly unbalanced jewish mystic set 319 down by his self-serving followers? Mind you, I do not say this is the case, 320 merely -- what then? 321 Can you support Christianity without reference to the bible, or is Christianity 322 completely dependent on that single book?" 323 324 With a smile and a bow, the piper turned away and stepped close to his own 325 table and spoke to the bard. 326 "This gentleman has offered a drink, and I feel that adventure may be in the 327 offing. Should the opportunity arise, are you game?" 328 329 Not waiting for an answer, the piper moved to the table and sank down before e 330 waiting figures. 331 ppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppp 332 333 ?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? 334 MIKEY: WELL PUT...I'M TOTALLY IN AGREEMENT. 335 336 PAM: IT IS TRUE YOUR INPUT IS MISSED....I OFTEN FIND MYSELF WONDERING 337 WHERE YOU ARE. 338 PIPER: EVEN WITHOUT THE BIBLE, I FEEL THAT A BELIEF IN A CREATOR IS 339 QUITE LOGICAL. THE BENEFIT WITH THE BIBLE IS THAT WE CAN GET SOME 340 VIEW OF THE WAY GOD HAS DEALT WITH HUMANS, AND A CONCEPT OF HIS 341 LIKES AND DISLIKES. IT'S INTERESTING THAT EVERYTHING THAT IS VIEWED 342 AS WRONG IN THE BIBLE, CAUSES PAIN TO HUMANS. SO LIVING BY IT'S 343 STANDARDS CAN BE A REAL BENEFIT. 344 THE BAD THING ABOUT THE BIBLE, IS WHAT PEOPLE DO WITH IT. THEY 345 TWIST IT THAT WAY AND THIS, AND FIT IN THIS EXPLANATION AND THAT , 346 TO TRY AND FIT THEIR OWN OPINIONS IN. WHEN ACTUALLY IT WAS MEANT 347 TO BE TAKEN AT FACE VALUE. 348 SNOT NOSE: INDEED THERE IS TRUTH IN REALITY. GRAVITY IS GRAVITY. 349 BLUE IS BLUE, ETC. THER MAY BE MANY OPINIONS.....BUT THERE IS 350 ONLY ONE TRUTH. I'M NOT CLAIMING I KNOW IT ALL....BUT SOMEWHERE 351 SOMETIME, SOMEWAY...THERE MUST BE. NATURE IS VERY DEFINATE, 352 GOVERNED BY EXTREMELY DEFINATE LAWS. 353 ?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!DEBORAH?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? 354 XRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRX 355 356 OK, LET'S ASSUME FOR THE MOMENT THAT GOD DOES 357 EXIST AND THAT HE CREATED THE UNIVERSE. 358 359 SO WHAT DID HE CREATE IT FROM? 360 361 AND THE REAL KICKER, WHO CREATED GOD? 362 363 XRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXR REX XRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRRXRXRXRXRX 364 Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm 365 Rex, 366 God is not material. When he created this univerese, he didn't have 367 to worry about the laws of physics. He created those later on. No one 368 created God. He's existed forever. You may find this hard to believe, 369 but time is part of this unverese. 370 Dr. Buck 371 Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm 372 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% 373 Rex, I agree with you totally. I saw an 374 episode of COSMOS where 375 Carl Sagan asked the same questions. 376 It kind of makes you wonder 377 how you make something from nothing. 378 379 FOTI 380 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% 381 XRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRX 382 383 WHO SAYS SOMETHING MUST BE MATERIAL TO BE 384 CREATED? LIGHT IS CERTAINLY NOT MATERIAL, YET IT CAN 385 BE CREATED BY A NUMBER OF MEANS. 386 387 ALSO, THE ARGUMENT THAT GOD ALWAYS HAS EXISTED 388 IS A VERY FLIMSY ARGUMENT, BY THAT SAME ARGUMENT I 389 COULD SAY THAT THE UNIVERSE ALWAYS HAS EXISTED TOO, 390 THUS NOT NEEDING A GOD TO CREATE IT. I COULD STILL 391 FIT THIS INTO THE BIG BANG CONCEPT THAT SCIENTISTS 392 LIKE TO USE FOR THE UNIVERSE AND THE SCIENTIFICLY 393 ORIENTED RELIGIOUS TYPES LIKE TO USE AS SUPPORTING 394 EVIDENCE BY SIMPLY POINTING OUT THAT THE UNIVERSE 395 COULD COLAPSE ON ITSELF AND BLOW OUT AGAIN FOREVER. 396 397 I BRING UP THE POINT OF CREATION OF GOD, BECAUSE 398 IF SOMEONE OR THING OR WHATEVER DID CREATE THIS WHOLE 399 MESS WETHER IT BE ONE SECOND AGO, OR UMTEEN MILLION 400 ZILLION YEARS AGO, THE QUESTION MUST BE ASKED WHO 401 CREATED THE CREATOR? AND OF COURSE THAT BEGETS THE 402 QUESTION OF WHO CREATED THE CREATOR WHO CREATED THE 403 CREATOR? AD INFINITUM......... 404 405 NOR CAN I ACCEPT THE CONCEPT THAT SOMETHING CAN 406 BE CREATED FROM NOTHING. THERE HAS TO BE SOME 407 UNDERLAYING BASIS FOR THE EXISTANCE TO OCCUR. THE ONE 408 CONCEPT I HAVE HEARD IN THAT REGARD THAT I CAN FIND 409 ACCEPTABLE IS THAT THE UNIVERSE 'IS' GOD. WHILE IT 410 DOES NOT ANSWER THE OTHER QUESTIONS ABOUT WHO CREATED 411 GOD ECT., IT AT LEAST PROVIDES A BASIS FROM WHICH THE 412 UNIVERSE COULD BE MADE ASSUMING WE ALLOW THE CONCEPT 413 THAT THIS GOD CREATED IT. 414 415 XRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXR REX XRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRRXRXRXRXRX 416 417 418 419 GRETINS TO THE PEOPLE OF THE IN N 420 LET ME INTRODUCE MY SELF I AN MA YUAN A SIMPLE 421 SOLE AND A MILLITANT PASIFASS (I ALSO KAN'T SPELL) 422 AS TO THE SUBJECT OF RELIGON AND BEING RELIGUS 423 IS IT GOOD OR BAD MIGHT IT BE WISE TO LOOKAT 424 WHAT THE BOY SCOUTS HAVE TO SAY ABOUT IT THAY 425 SAY TO BE REVERENT NOT RELIGOUS I BELIVE THIS 426 MEANS TO RESPECT OUTHERS RELIGONS AND NOT ATTACK THEM 427 I FELL THAT I CAN SPEEK WITH SOME ATHORDY ON THIS DUE 428 TO THE FACT THAT I HAVE BEEN INVOLVED IN SCOUTS 429 FOR TEN YERS. 430 431 432 FATHFULY YOURS 433 MA YAUN 434 435 436 PS IN RESPONC TO NANCY IN AND AN EARLER ARGUMENT 437 I AGGRE WITH YOU AND WISH TO EXPRES MY VEUE THAT 438 SEX SHOULD NOT BE USED AS A LEVER ON A DIFFRENT 439 ENETY. 440 441 442 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% ARE THERE ANY DEIST'S OUT 443 HERE? ALSO, AS A NEWCOMER TO THESE 444 DISCUSSIONS, ONE QUESTION COMES TO 445 MIND. WHAT OR WHERE IS TH MUCH 446 REFERRED TO "INN"? 447 ORNAC 448 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% 475 Wanted musicians:Forming 50's 60's show band. experiance a must! contact JR 476 at 667-xxxx. thanks 477 --------------------------------------- 478 GEM OF THE MOUNTAINS by Paul Aurandt 479 It was the prospect of gold which brought people into the territory in the first place. Those who came decided to stay. 480 By February of 1859, an act had been introduced in Congress which would make that chunk of land spanning the Rockies an 481 official U.S. territory. The name, "Osage Territory" was proposed. Yet there was too much congressional foot-dragging to 482 suit the enthusiastic inhabitants of the area. And so on June 6 a constitutional convention assembled, and the name 483 "Jefferson Territory" was adopted. Then the election of a delegate to Congress was scheduled. 484 Had duly elected delegate B. D. Williams simply gone to Washington, D.C., and gained the acceptance of Jefferson Territory 485 as an official territory of the United States, the eventual state would have been called Jefferson. Of course, there is no 486 such state, and here's why. 487 Among the unsuccessful candidates for territorial delegate was a fellow namd George M. Willing. He decided to go to 488 Washington anyway, and he met delegate Williams there. He told delegate Williams that Congress would be unlikely to buy the 489 name Jefferson for the new territory, and that he, George Willing, had a better name: Idaho. It was an Indian word, George 490 said. It meant "Gem of the mountains." 491 Delegate Williams said that Idaho was a very nice name indeed, but that the territorial inhabitants had already chosen 492 "Jefferson," and "Jefferson" they would get. 493 Shortly thereafter, both House and Senate committees determined that to start a trend of naming territories after presidents 494 would not be a good idea, and that President Washington's should remain a singular honor. 495 So what about the name Idaho, George Willing once more asked? Delegate Williams replied that if "Jefferson" was out of the 496 question, a number of names should be pondered and carefully evaluated. 497 Names proposed to the Senate committee included "Tampa" and "Nemara" and "Weapollao" and "Arapahoe" and even "San Juan." The 498 House committee seemed particularly fond of "Tahosa," an Indian word meaning "dwellers on the mountaintops." 499 The names of Columbus, Franklin, and Lafayette were also considered for the new territory. But the one name, apparently 500 irresistible to all, was George Willing's original name: Idaho. "Gem of the mountains." What could be more appropriate? 501 But this is THE REST OF THE STORY. 502 Delegate B. D. Williams, still suspicious of the territorial tag-along George Willing, decided to research the origin of the 503 Indian word "Idaho." He discovered not only that Idaho did NOT mean "Gem of the mountains, but that Idaho had no meaning at 504 all. 505 There was no such word, in ANY language, as "Idaho"! 506 Suddenly realizing that the Idaho proposal had been George Willing's practical joke from the start, delegate Williams 507 hurried back to the Hill with this warning: The name Idaho was a fake. It meant nothing, least of all "gem of the mountains." 508 That the name of a territory and ultimately a state should be a product of a practical joker's imagination was unthinkable. 509 Therefore, the new territory must receive another name. A LEGITIMATE name. 510 And it did. 511 The name "Idaho" was abandoned. 512 And on February 8, 1861, COLORADO was born. 513 514 ------------------------------------------------------ P. V. Jeltz ----------- 515 Ahhah! At last we get back to the topic I proposed so long ago! (Which topic?) 516 Do we really exist at all? And does that question have any meaning? Don't give me Decarte's cop-out "I think therefore I 517 am," because what you really are saying is that you THINK you think, which doesn't prove a thing! 518 If the universe is/was a creation of God, made from nothing, then perhaps the closest we can come to a true conception o 519 of the nature of reality is that of a dream in the mind of God, who being by definition a limitless being would have a 520 limitless capacity for dream. This would encompass not only our own vast universe, but also infinite other universes, all 521 equally complex. This is, of course, unprovable by standard scientific means, leaving the question open only to examination 522 by non-standard means. Could Gnostic Christians be right in their assumption that the nature of reality is different for 523 each individual, and is open only to experience, not quantitative analysis? If this is so it would help explain such 524 things as the uncertainty principle, and explain why things like yoga and shamanism (and bumblebees) that shouldn't 525 work, do. 526 Keep those cards & letters coming! 527 && The Mad Actor && 528 ================================================================================ SCENARIO: 529 530 LOCATION: ON DECK OF AN ENGLISH BATTLESHIP IN THE FRENCH-ENGLISH WAR 531 532 SITUATION: FIRST MATE IS DISCUSSIN LOCAL SNAIL RACING WITH THE CAPTIAN 533 534 FADE IN........... 535 536 LOOKOUT SHOUTS FROM ABOVE: "FOUR BRESLY FRENCH SCHOONERS OFF THE PORT BOW !" 537 1ST MATE:YOUR ORDERS SIR? 538 CAP: GO INTO MY CABIN AND GET ME MY GREAT OVERCOAT , THE ONE MADE OF RED VELOUR. 539 1ST MATE: BUT CAPTAIN, WON'T THIS GARMENT BE A BURDEN TO YOU WHEN WE ARE IN BATTLE ? 540 CAP: YES, BUT I AM WEARING IT FOR REASONS OF MORAL,I AM THINKING OF THE MEN 541 1ST MATE: MORALE? HOW? EXPLAIN YOURSELF PLEASE? 542 CAP: IN BATTLE, IF I AM HIT AND THE MEN SEE IT, THEIR FIGHTING EFFECTIVENESS WILL BE GREATLY LESSENED IF THEY SEE THEIR 543 LEADER IS WOUNDED. IF I WEAR A RED COAT, THE BLOOD WILL NOT BE NOTICED. 544 1ST MATE: I UNDERSTAND, A BRILLIANT STROKE OF POLITIC, SIR. 545 546 LOOKOUT SHOUTS FROM ABOVE: "FORTY-FOUR BRESLY FRENCH SCHOONERS OFF THE PORT BOW !!" 547 548 CAP : MATE, WOULD YOU BE SO KIND AS TO GO INTO MY CABIN AND GET ME MY 549 BROWN CORDUROY TROUSERS. 550 551 -CRUD 552 553 ================================================================================ 554 Ornac: you're in the Inn now. It seems to exist everywhere/when, but its primary level of existence is in a lan 555 called Innisfall. The entrance to the Inn in our plane of reality is somewhere inside of a computer in the Johnson 556 Creek area of Portland. 557 May I buy you a drink?--Inkeeper! Ales for the Piper and Ornac here, and one for the Bard over there, if he'll 558 have it. Gentlemen, Lynn here has a proposition which I think you might find interesting, if you've the stomach for 559 a little risk... 560 && The Mad Actor && 561 Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm 562 It seems logical to me that something could exist forever. Time 563 is part of this universe. A divine being would obviously be above that 564 rule. This universe could not exist forever without a divine being. By 565 the law of entropy, the energy would eventually. evenly distribute 566 itself unless there was outside energy. So no matter which way you 567 look at it, it falls back on God. 568 As for if I exist. I think I'll never know that. In order to keep 569 my sanity, I'll assume I exist. This arrangement seems to work out 570 great. 571 Dr. Buck 572 P.S. Light is a form of matter. 573 Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm 574 I think you would get a argument out of a number of 575 scientists about light being matter. Also, there are 576 a multitude of non-material forces out there that 577 can either be created, or that exist as a result of 578 something else being created. Three very common and 579 well known ones are electricity, magnatisism, and 580 gravity. Non of these are material, we know they 581 exist, and in the case of two of them we can create 582 them at will. As for the universe comming to a stop 583 via the entrophy concept, that is still far from 584 an only accepted end of the universe, with the right 585 amount of mass the universe can recyle itsef forever. 586 It simply colapses back in on itself and goes thru the 587 big bang again forever. 588 As far as god is concerned, you seem to be using 589 a self feeding proof there. Why does God have to 590 be kicking around forever? Why couldn't he himself (or 591 herself) have been created? I see no reason why this 592 can't be so. Being material or not has nothing to do 593 with hanging around forever. It is quite feasible for 594 both to have that capability. 595 XRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXR REX XRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXRXR 596 WILL SOMEONE PLEASE GIVE ME SOME INPUT ON THE REALITY OF NOTHINGNESS? 597 YST-CRUD 598 599 This discussion of religion is pointless and tends to be recursive in all 600 respects. All that needs to be said is that people thrive best in their own 601 environ and to question that environ is incorrect ,this statement pertains 602 to all cases ie: both sides whomever they may be. 603 If one chooses to entertain a viewpoint that viewpoint is unique and 604 founded of absolute creativity. To venture to alter this viewpoint 605 through means of direct criticism is a desecration of human rights of 606 theory. One may express personal opinions on what they view so long as 607 these opinions do not wantonly excoriate the beliefs of others. 608 609 >> A HYPOCRITE WHO TALKS TOO MUCH 610 611 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] 612 613 The "human rights of theory"? While everyone certainly has the "right" to 614 entertain any speculative or conjectural viewspoints they wish, unless they are 615 a closely reasoned set of propositions supported by established evidence and 616 intended to serve as an explanation for some other group of phenomena, I would 617 object to classifying them as "theory". 618 It is correct to say that one shouldn't wantonly excoriate the beliefs of 619 others, but if a person intentionally places their beliefs on the table for the 620 purpose of argument, he shouldn't be surprised or take offense if they are soon 621 dissected by others with differing opinions. Such an exchange certainly cannot 622 be labeled wanton excoriation. 623 624 It seems that some things never change. Though I've been away for quite 625 some time, this back table still needs to be cleaned. There aren't any random 626 items lying around that need to be picked up, but the table has been abandoned 627 with much left to be done. Ah, well, the Innkeeper now leaves, and so shall I. 628 629 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]PAM.[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] >