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LIST FILE ON MARGIN IS 72 STATUS: ALL ALLOWED NUMBER OF LINES: 629 1 If you are in need of help, you need but ask... 2 ********************** REMOVED: 29 OCT 83 ************************** 3 Welcome to BWMS (BackWater Message System) Mike Day System operator 4 ************************************************************ 5 GENERAL DISCLAIMER: BWMS IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INFORMATION PLACED ON 6 THIS SYSTEM. 7 BWMS was created as an electronic bill board. BWMS is a privatly owned 8 and operated system which is currently open for use by the general public. 9 No restrictions are placed on the use of the system. 10 It is intended that the system be normally used for messages and 11 advertisments by the users. As the system is privatly owned, I retain the 12 right to remove any and all messages which I may find offensive 13 to me. Additionally because of the limited size of the system, it will be 14 periodically purged of older messages. (only 629 lines of data can be saved) 15 The saved information will be cycled to drive 'B' while the information on 16 drive 'B' will be archived, and a fresh disk will be installed in drive 'A'. 17 To leave a message, type 'ENTER' and use ctrl/C or break to get out 18 of the enter mode. The message is automaticly stored. 19 If after entering the message you find you made a mistake, 20 use the replace command to replace the line. 21 To exit from the system, type 'OFF' then hang up. 22 Type 'HELP' to see other commands that are available on the system. 23 ======================================== 24 25 PAM: SUGGEST YOU TRY A LITTLE EARLIER (SAY BETWEEN 8 AND 10) 26 OTHERWISE AFTER 11 IT SEEMS TO BE 'WHO EVER IS THE FIRST 27 TO CALL GETS IT FOR AS LONG AS THEY WANT'. ALSO THE MORNING 28 IS A GOOD TIME TOO. (6 TO 12) I'M NOT SURE ABOUT THE 29 AFTERNOON SINCE I HAVEN'T BEEN AROUND TO CHECK. 30 (MAYBE WE SHOULD IMPLIMENT AN EVEN/ODD SYSTEM? IF YOUR 31 NAME ENDS WITH AN EVEN LETTER YOU CALL ON EVEN DAYS, IF 32 YOUR NAME ENDS WITH AN ODD LETTER YOU CALL ON ODD DAYS?) 33 [WITH OUR LUCK EVERYBODYS NAME ENDS WITH AN EVEN LETTER!] 34 JUST JOKING... 35 ********* CISTOP MIKEY *********** 25 OCT 83 *************** 36 P.S. DOM: THE DATA ON MONTY II YOU SPEAK OF IS ON DRIVE B 37 STARTING AT LINE 24. (IT WAS ON TE SAME DISK AS THE ONE 38 YOU ENTERED YOUR COMMENT.) 39 *********************************************** 40 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> 41 42 if it is the same film, I enjoyed it very much, PAM..... 43 44 PAM/ALEX 45 46 true, true....yet I submit Mormonism as my example and evidence 47 of fesability; certainly we havn't had any large scale riots of 48 Mormons crying "We've been lied to! Mormonism is purley arbitrary!" 49 have we....? 50 51 Anon 52 53 I've heard that those various sugars can be incorporated into 54 body fat..(groan!)....If you try to lose weight you could be in for it! 55 56 ALL 57 58 What? no people beating a path to my modem crying "Me! Me! let ME help 59 him"???? I refer all to my despartate (though intoxicated) (?) plea 60 for help on DB at LN 471. maybe you know a friend of a friend at TEK? 61 or maybe HP? SRI? ANYPLACE?!?! --thx 62 63 Aaron 64 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> 65 post script---- dl, please examine my note at top of DB.......... 66 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> 67 Aaron: 68 I know just a slight smattering of the subjects you (drunkenly) brought up, 69 but not enough to be able to help.... just enough to admire your bravery in attempting to ACTUALLY ACCOMPLISH somethin'! 70 You might find a recent article in HIGH TECHNOLOGY magazine fascinating: Optical computing. A real mind-blower if there 71 ever was one. Imagine doing a 1-million point FFT in 3 nanoseconds or so! (just take a 35mm picture). 72 Perhaps you could alleviate some withdrawl symptoms with saccharin? 73 74 All: 75 Let's hear some commentary on our little war in Grenada, garden spot of the Caribbean. Should we be there 76 (not us personally, just our young'uns), and for how long. Reagan has unwittingly provided a marvelous new subject for 77 us to pick apart in teeny-tiny detail. 78 I think they oughtta search the island for a cork labelled 'inflate here', evacuate the island and pull out 79 the cork. PPPPPHHHHHHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!! 80 Splash! 81 Seriously, what are we doing in Grenada? Let's hear from the peanut gallery. 82 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Anon ::::::::::::::: 83 84 I think being in Grenada is a good idea. The peoples lives on the island will be a lot better under a democracy rather 85 than a communist dictatorship. Except for the marines, the fighting force was all volunteer, so don't anyone go 86 screaming about American lives being lost. Most if not all the soldiers there are in the military to fight. It also is 87 good training for the troops. I believe the Ranger drop was the first major combat jump since WWII. I also might point 88 out that the neighboring islands requested U.S. assistance. I know I'm going to get crucified for my views by all the 89 liberals out there, so take your shot, I have to go and watch the end of the A-Team. 90 *******************dss************************** 91 92 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> 93 i think that the best way to avoid the withdrawl symptomology is with 94 more of the same brew. i try to reserve it for moments that i need to 95 function irrespective of the relative discomfort; i wonder how I convinced 96 myself that BW at 4am fit that criteria........ 97 98 Optical, eh? well, unfortunatly my applications demand perfect accuracy 99 (precision?); SAW or Optical techniques just aren't going to cut it. If 100 Gallium Arsnide toys were availiable i would leap at the thought of using 101 them, yet unfortunatly ECL seems to be the only viable solution at the 102 moment...damn the speed/power product though! ....maybe if someone could 103 just come out with a EICO kit called "josephson devices: basic experiments" 104 I would consider that technology...... 105 106 But do tell! every bit helps! where might your expertise lie? 107 Aaron 108 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> 109 110 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] 111 AARON, WE DON'T NEED MORMONS CRYING TO BE LET OUT AS THEY CAN LEAVE ANY 112 TIME THEY WANT TO, OR WILL BE KICKED OUT IF THEY COMPLAIN TOO LOUDLY (I.E. 113 THE WOMEN THAT HAVE TRIED TO CHANGE THE SYSTEM OF TOTALLY MALE ELDERS). 114 BESIDES, SINCE THEY CAN LEAVE AT ANY TIME, MOST CAN AND DO IF (IF!) THEY COME 115 TO A CONCLUSION THAT THE CHURCH IS FALSE. BUT WHAT YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT 116 WAS AN ENTIRE WORLD SOCIAL STRUCTURE BASED UPON THIS SYSTEM, WASN'T IT? I 117 HAVE NO COMPLAINTS ABOUT MORMONISM FOR THOSE THAT WANT TO LIVE THAT LIFE, 118 BUT A WORLD BASED UPON IT ISN'T MY IDEA OF UTOPIA. ALSO, SINCE THERE ARE 119 OTHER MODES OF LIFE AVAILABLE, SOMEONE LEAVING THE MORMON CHURCH IS ALREADY 120 AWARE THAT HIS/HER CONCEPTS AREN'T ACCEPTED AS TRUTH BY OTHERS, SO IT 121 WOULDN'T COME AS SUCH A GREAT SHOCK. BUT IF THE ENTIRE WORLD IS BASED ON 122 SUCH A SYSTEM, THE SHOCK WOULD BE HUGE. BESIDES, I WAS POINTING OUT THAT 123 THE 90%/99% SOLUTION YOU WERE ADVANCING WOULDN'T STAY AT THOSE FIGURES FOR 124 LONG, AS MORE AND MORE REALIZED THAT THE TRUTHS OF THE CHURCH WEREN'T TRUTH. 125 IF SOMEONE COULD COME UP WITH A SOCIAL STRUCTURE THAT WOULD SOLVE 90% OF 126 THE WORLD'S PROBLEMS FOR 99% OF ITS POPULATION AS YOU PUT FORTH, I WOULD 127 ACCEPT IT GLADLY. I JUST DON'T THINK THAT THE MORMON CHURCH IS IT, 128 ESPECIALLY FOR WOMEN THAT BELIEVE THERE ARE THINGS IN LIFE OTHER THAN 129 SERVING ONE'S MAN, KEEPING HIS HOME, AND BIRTHING HIS BABIES. 130 131 AARON, I'M SORRY THAT LAST BIT LOOKS SO EMOTIONAL. EXCUSE, PLEASE? 132 133 ON THE QUESTION OF GRENADA, IT WAS COMMENTED THAT IT WILL BE GREAT 134 FOR THE PEOPLE THERE WHEN WE INSTALL A TRUE DEMOCRACY. WELL, IF WE INSTALL 135 A DEMOCRACY, IT WILL BE THE FIRST TIME WE HAVE DONE IT TO A COUNTRY WE HAVE 136 INVADED SINCE WWII. USUALLY, WE REPLACE A DICTATOR THAT IS OUR ENEMY WITH 137 A DICTATOR THAT IS OUR FRIEND. I WOULDN'T EVEN ATTEMPT TO DEFEND ANY OF THE 138 TYRANTS WE HAVE OVERTHROWN, BUT I DON'T SEE THAT WE HAVE DONE MUCH TO 139 IMPROVE THE LOT OF THE PEOPLE OF THOSE COUNTRIES AFTER WITH OUR OWN DICTATOR. 140 I DO THINK THAT REAGAN IS TOO QUICK TO SEND IN THE TROOPS, AND HE IS DOING 141 EXACTLY WHAT HE ALWAYS SAID HE WOULD DO WHEN HE WAS GOVERNOR OF CALIFORNIA 142 (AT LEAST HE WAS TOTALLY HONEST). EVEN MARGARET THATCHER, NOT KNOWN AS A 143 PARAGON OF LIBERALISM, SAID TODAY THAT SHE THOUGHT THE INVASION WAS "ILL- 144 ADVISED". I JUST HOPE HE DOESN'T GET US INTO PROBLEMS THAT ARE BEYOND THE 145 SCOPE OF HIS ABILITIES TO HANDLE, AND AT THE RATE HE IS GOING, IT MAY HAPPEN. 146 147 [][][][][][][][][][][][]PAM.[][][][][][] 148 149 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~ 150 151 Mikey: Thank you for directing me to M II. Why I was unable to find it 152 last night is beyond me. (My sugar consumption is minimal> Aaron sug- 153 gested the possibility of obtaining copies of archived BW disks, which 154 approximates a suggestion I have considered making (when I have less than 155 ten other responses pending). Have you ever considered publishing BW 156 in hardcopy form? Perhaps something of the nature of an unedited "yearbook" 157 would be of minimal cost to ready for publishing; or an alternative 158 (although more costly) would be an edited book of BW "hilights" spanning 159 the years of its existence. I think the market for such an item would 160 extend not only to BW'ers, but also to users of other systems, researchers 161 in abnormal psychology, material seeking comedians, microtheologians, and 162 perhaps even the general public. 163 I have recently taken to recording a copy of those messages of per- 164 sons who seem to have frequent "identity crisis" relapses (and forget who 165 said what) but there are many other messages which would like to have a 166 hard copy of, were it a little more convenient. 167 168 Leonard: Sorry, in my last response I forgot to mention an important point. 169 You stated something to the effect that I should not interfere with someones 170 beliefs as long as those beliefs pose a threat to society (something like 171 that). I did address the question of whether or not education constitutes 172 interference, but what I forgot to menton was the most curious aspect of 173 that statement. You either missed or chose to ignore the main point of my 174 argument which was that some of those beliefs, particularly the one that 175 allows them to avert any feelings of guilt resulting from moral trans- 176 gression by simply praying for forgiveness, are very much a threat to 177 society. 178 179 Dave: Why do we deny the existence of a god? I suspect that my answer 180 reflects, for the most part, that of other atheists; I have simply found 181 no reason to believe that it does exist, but I have found considerable 182 reason to believe that belief in a deity is a misconception. I have tried 183 to outline some of those reasons in previous messages. 184 With regard to your second question, the potential oppressive nature 185 of any such organization, whether atheistic, deistic or even motivated 186 by a completely different parameter, such as politics, is why I have long 187 avoided such organization. Recently though, I have considered that the 188 oppressive element might be eliminated by limiting the basic binding con- 189 cepts of the organization. Opression, among other things is a product of 190 hypocrisy; therefore, the theory is that by making a single statement as 191 to a common belief of the members, such as "We believe that deities exist 192 only in the human mind, not in reality", and avoiding lengthy dogma which 193 rigorously defines every aspect of the members' conciousness, the members 194 will not be required to profess a number of principles which are contrary 195 to the basic nature of their being, or experiences, and hypocrisy will be 196 thusly avoided. 197 With regard to the third question, I believe that in the long-run, truth 198 will offer the most peaceful and humane (politeness is practitioner-defined) 199 solution to the problems of humankind. Since I am strongly of the belief 200 indicated in the above quotes, to state otherwise would be a manifestation 201 of the type of hypocrisy which I am attempting to avert. 202 203 Aaron: Is your navel direct-connect or accoustically coupled? If you 204 whistle through your navel, that may well account for the ailments you 205 have attributed to sugar. 206 207 PS: "Dirty" is an acceptable abbreviation of my handle. I was ac- 208 tually given this handle long before BBS days, by a sweet (semi)innocent 209 Japanese girl, so I imagine "Sukebe", 210 the Japanese equivalent, would also 211 be acceptable. 212 213 Sukebe ~ Dirty Ol' Man 214 215 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~ 216 217 218 Grenada had a legitimate democracy before Maurice Bishop came to power 219 How do you think he got elected? It was only after A coup take place in 220 which Bishop was executed and a radical marxist seized power, that the 221 U.S. (with the request of the O.E.C.S, organization of eastern caribean 222 states) decided to act. The claim that American lives were in danger, 223 while not the main reason also contributed to the decision. Except for 224 Cuba and Haiti, I can't think of any other dictatorships in that area. 225 *********************dss***************** 226 227 DOM: I can't figure out why my comments elicited your response. In any case, 228 I don't remember ever having such a silly belief regarding the 229 sky. I also don't see how you can justify your statements. There 230 is a considerable difference between educating a child & "eliminating 231 Christianity" (or any other religion). The essential tenets of 232 most religions are not subject to proof, thus your "analogy" 233 falls apart. Also, if you start with Christianity, where are you 234 going to stop? Perhaps when anyone who disagrees with you has been 235 "eliminated"? I made a point of stating that beliefs that are 236 counter to the way the world works, will soon (VERY SOON) show 237 their shortcomings. 238 In case you haven't figured it out yet, while I feel kids 239 deserve better treatment than they generally get, I don't think 240 they should have "full adult rights". This is another reason why 241 your analogy is "invalid". 242 PAM: You (and others) seem to be ignorant of certain facts regarding 243 the "public" airwaves. The FCC "grants title" to frequencies & 244 (with the exception of AM broadcast radio, FM broadcast radio, 245 & TV channels 2-83) IT IS ILLEGAL TO MAKE ANY USE OF A TRANSMISSION 246 NOT DIRECTED AT YOU! They specifically mention "commercial use" 247 among other things. Since HBO is charging for the reception of their signal, 248 I believe the courts would rule that you were making "commercial 249 use" of it. 250 This may not be "right", but it IS the LAW. 251 252 Finally, someone on the last disk was getting morality & ethics confused! 253 ______________________________Leonard__________________________ 254 ps. anyone want to discuss what rights kids should & should not 255 have? 256 ________________________________________________________________ 257 ########################################WELL, NOW, IT SEEMS THAT MR REAGAN 258 HAS MOVED THE OK CORRAL TO THE CARRIBEAN. HOPE HE REALIZES THAT TO THE REST 259 OF THE WORLD (M0STLY) AND TO THE RATIONAL MEMBERS OF THIS SOCIETY, HE IS 260 WEARING THE BLACK HAT. WHY CAN'T THAT MAN REALIZE THAT HE IS NO LONGER ON 261 WARNERS BACKLOT AND THAT THERE ARE NO RETAKES ALLOWED. 262 @@@@@@@@@@@@@FLASH*************** 263 CBS JUST REPORTED THAT THE FIGHTING HAS INTENSIFIED. HOUSE TO HOUSE COMBAT 264 8 U.S DEAD, 18 CIVILIANS DEAD. 265 ********************************* 266 ALSO DOES EVERYONE REALIZE THAT NO JOURNALISTS ARE ALLOWED ON THE SCENE. CBS 267 IS GETTING THEIR INFO FROM HAM RADIO AND THEY DID ATTEMPT TO FLY OVER THE 268 AREA BUT WERE USHERED OUT BY US PLANES. SO MUCH FOR OUR 'DEMOCRACY'. ALL YOU 269 FOLKS THAT BELIEVE WE SHOULD BE THERE SHOULD GET THEIR WAR GEAR TOGETHER AND 270 HEAD OUT AT THEIR OWN EXPENSE. I DON'T LIKE PAYING TAXES FOR THE PURPOSE OF 271 SETTING UP OUR IDEA OF DEMOCRACY ALL OVER THE WORLD. THERE'S AN OLD SAYING, 272 "TAKE CARE OF YOUR OWN, THEN IF THERE ARE RESOURCES, TIME, AND ENERGY LEFT 273 HELP OTHERS" IN OTHER WORDS WHY DON'T WE DO SOMETHING ABOUT THE POVERTY, 274 INJUSTICE, EDUCATION ETC. RIGHT HERE IN THE U.S.A. BEFORE WE SQUANDER OUR 275 RESOURCES ON THE REST OF THE WORLD, ESPECIALLY MILLITARILY!!! 276 ###################C.Y.M.#############################10/26 10:34AM######### 277 -------------------------------------------------------------------- 278 Hooray!!!!!!!!! I agree with the above message. Even thought I am a 279 vet, I am getting tired of the US trying to force our way on the rest 280 of the world. Why can't someone who is fiscally responsible and 281 conservative also be temperate in world affairs? 282 ---------- Tom 10/26 11:32 -------------- 283 Back your country!! Not your thoughts!! 284 285 Sure, Reagan did jump into it a little bit, but to sit here and 286 argue whether or not we should have invaded Grenada is pointless!! 287 288 We are there, there are US citizens and military personel there, 289 and to debate the existence of them is wrong... 290 291 This is exactly what happened in Vietnam...if it isn't a popular 292 war (???) then the hell with it if I remember right... 293 ---------------------- 294 ######################################## 295 TO ABOVE RE POINTLESS: JUST WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT. IT NOT ONLY 296 IS OUR RIGHT BUT OUR DUTY TO DISCUSS THE ACTIONS OF MR. REAGAN! JUST AS IT 297 WAS AND STILL IS THE DUTY OF ALL THINKING AMERICANS TO QUESTION OUR 298 GOVERNMENT WHENEVER THEY STEP OUT OF LINE WITH OUR CONCENSOUS OF WHAT IS 299 RIGHT. THISS APPLIES TO ALL!! NOT JUST THE LIBERALS, THE CONSERVATIVES, THE 300 LEFT, OR THE RIGHT. WHEN WE CAN NO LONGER SPEEK UP THEN THE INVASIONS WILL 301 BE INTO OUR OWN CITIES & TOWNS. 302 I STILL CONTEND THAT WE HAVE NO RIGHT TELLING OTHERS HOW TO LIVE OR WHAT TYP 303 E OF GOVERNMENT THEY SHOULD HAVE. THERE HAVE BEEN REVOLUTIONS BEFORE AND 304 THERE WILL BE MORE IN THE FUTURE. IT IS NEITHER OUR PLACE OR RIGHT TO GET 305 INVOLVED WHERE WE ARE NOT WANTED. SEEMS WE ARE EMULATING THE RUSSIANS NOW 306 WITH THE MILITARY SOLUTIONS. 307 308 #################C.Y.M.#############################10/26 2:19PM############ 309 310 311 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] 1654 26-OCT-1983 [] 312 313 AARON: RE 99% SOLUTION. HAVE YOU READ CATS CRADLE ? SOMEWHAT THE SAME 314 PREMISE, AND IT DOES SEEM TO MAKE SENSE. 315 316 ALL: RE GRENADA. WHILE REAGAN SEEMS TO HAVE THE ECONOMY IN HAND, HE SEEMS 317 TO HAVE A DISTORTED SENSE OF REALITY WHEN IT COMES TO FOREIGN POLICY. 318 MAYBE WE SHOULD HAVE ONE PRESIDENT FOR DOMESTIC POLICIES AND ONE FOR 319 FOREIGN POLICIES. THE LAST PRESIDENT THAT WE HAD WHO UNDERSTOOD 320 FOREIGN AFFAIRS WAS NIXON. I AM NOT DEFENDING HIS ACTIONS AT HOME, HE 321 WAS A CROOK, BUT HE DID DO WELL IN FOREIGN AFFAIRS. 322 323 PAM: IT IS ALWAYS EASY (SO FAR) TO GET ON IN THE AFTERNOON. 324 325 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] DJJ [][][][][][][][] 326 327 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 328 I believe HBO is providing a service which must be paid for, not a good. If 329 you want the service, then you pay for it. If you don't pay for it, that's 330 piracy. (Did I say that right?) 331 - - - - - - - - Mad Quark - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 332 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 26 Oct 83 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< 333 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 19:33 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< 334 To answer your question regarding the identity of Deborah, no, DOM, 335 but our entrance together is no coincidence--she is my guest. 336 'Monster Comics', indeed, Aaron! Whatever your source is, it paints 337 up a gaudy, glittery tramp of a dragon, complete with haughty demeanor 338 and sinister coils--truly, I am injured that you would associate me with 339 such an unfriendly and chintzy figure! Though my name was bestowed upon 340 me, I refuse to accept a borrowed reputation, even if it has the flash of 341 glamour attached to it, and I might even denounce it, if an image such as 342 you depicted is conjured in most minds--! Pah! 343 I yield the floor to Deborah, but only because time presses--please 344 be patient; now it has been a stricken throat that has kept me from 345 fulfilling my promise...patience, patience; I am not putting you off! 346 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> d <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< 347 !?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? 348 In regard to airwave piracy, all radio and television frequency holders 349 must support their broadcasting in some way or manner. Most choose 350 commercial advertising, (much to our chagrin). But in the case of these 351 specialty channels, they offer movies without the constant irritation 352 and annoyance caused by most commercial interruptions. Therefore, some of 353 their monies must come from other sources, like a user fee. They are 354 providing a specific service, and we all are willing to pay for certain 355 special services that we want, so........what's the problem. I do feel 356 tho that if someone just happens to pick it up because of other equipment 357 or location, not specifically directed at their frequency, that they 358 should not be required to pay. 359 Also, about the existance of a God. Consider: a businessman who was 360 asked why he believed in God explained that in his factory it takes two 361 days for a girl to learn how to put the 17 parts of a meat chopper together. 362 "I am merely a plain manufacturer of cutlery," he said. "But this I do 363 know, that you can shake the 17 parts of a meat chopper around in a wash- 364 tub for the next 17 billion years and you'll never have a meat chopper." 365 I realize this is an overly simplified illustration but it does touch on 366 a very complicated science, that of probabilities which I will employ 367 another time in reference to a creator. If someone approached a person 368 and informed them that their house had evolved or come into being on its 369 own, most would retaliate, PREPOSTEROUS! Here I go, quoting from my 370 favorite source: 371 "Of course, every house is constructed by someone, but he that 372 constructed all things is God." (Hebrews 3:4) 373 Most object to the idea of creation because they rightly say that six 374 24-hour days is not enough time to accomplish the bringing about of a 375 universe. But the Bible is a book about God, his dealings with men 376 and his ideas; and most of it is on his timetable. In fact, the whole 377 Genesis account is only about his work having to do with just the earth. 378 Any-hey the days of creation amounted to 42,000 years not six 24-hour 379 days. Plenty of time to develop a planet. Therefore, don't you think 380 a belief in God is worth considering? 381 !?!?!?!?!?!??!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!??!?! DEBORAH 8:55 pm 382 ? 383 / 384 385 ??????????????????????????????????????????????////////////////????????????????? 386 387 ANYONE EVER HEARD OF " ONTYME II " 388 IT IS SOMETHING ON 226-0627 389 WHEN ASKED FOR TERMINAL IDENT. TYPE "E" 390 391 THEN ENTER "0001;;" 392 THE SECOND SEMI-COLON DOES NOT SHOW 393 394 ?????????????????????????THE ATTEMPTER????????????????????????????????????? 395 <-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-> 396 On the subject of Grenada: 397 Even more interesting than the question of what we are doing there 398 is the question of just what the Soviets were doing there.... 399 400 We may have done what we did at exactly the best time, just befor that 401 very long runway was made active. (by the way, why was the soviet embas- 402 sador the equivelent of a four-star general?) 403 I'm going to reserve judgement on this until I learn more 404 405 the Phantom Glitch 406 407 >-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<10/26>-<22:00>-<>-<>-< 408 WELL NOW! 409 REAGAN USED TO ONLY HAVE UNSUCESSFUL WARS TO TALK ABOUT. SINCE THE WEEKEND, 410 HE'S JUST ABOUT A MILLION PERCENT MORE POPULAR WITH ALL THOSE CONSERVATIVES 411 WHO WERE ON THE WAY TO BEING ALIENTED. 412 413 SOMEBODY TELL ME: IF WE'RE SO CONCERNED WITH SPREADING DEMOCRACY THROUGHOUT 414 THE WORLD WHY DON'T WE INVADE EL SALVADOR, GUATEMALA, AND SO FORTH. 415 416 AT LEAST I CAN APPROVE OF THIS MORE THAN THE TROOPS IN LEBANON ON THE FOLLOW- 417 ING BASIS: 418 1. WE CAN BEAT A COUNTRY OF 100 THOUSAND PEOPLE 419 2. WE KNEW WHAT WE WERE DOING THERE - TAKING OVER 420 421 WHAT BEATS ME IS THAT THE GOVERNMENT EXCUSES FOR THE INVASION ARE THE 422 THINNEST YET. SEEMS LIKE RECENT GOVERNMENT PROPAGANDA IS ONLY AIMED AT 423 IMPRESSING THE BELOW-80 IQ SET. IF I WAS TOLD WE INVADED IT TO SET UP 424 OUR OWN MILITARY BASE INSTEAD OF THE RUSSIANS, I WOULD BELIEVE IT. 425 426 I FIGURE THE GRENADANS WILL BE BETTER OFF, AT LEAST. ASSUMING WE REALLY 427 RE-INSTITUTE THE DEMOCRATIC CONSTITUTION. BUT I MAINTAIN THAT WE WOULD 428 HAVE LIBERATED MORE PEOPLE FROM TERROR BY INVADING EL SALVADOR. 429 430 INCIDENTALLY, HAS IT EVER BEEN DISCUSSED HERE THAT **ALL** MILITARY 431 DICTATORSHIPS ARE REALLY *SOCIALIST* TOTALITARIAN STATES! REALLY. TALK 432 ABOUT TOTAL GOVERNMENT CONTROL OF THE ECONOMY. REMEMBER THAT THE 433 NAZIS WERE THE NATIONAL *SOCIALISTS*. SO LETS JUST CALL THOSE RIGHT WING 434 DEATH SQUADS IN CENTRAL AMERICA COMMIES AND GO GET 'EM. WE COULD TAKE OVER 435 THE WHOLE AREA, JUST LIKE IN TEDDY R'S DAY. FUN FUN FUN. 436 437 AND THEN WE COULD GET ARGENTINA. TOO BAD BRITS DIDN'T HAVE THE GUTS TO BOMB 438 THEIR WEAPONS-GRADE REACTOR & BOMB FACILITY WHILE THEY WERE AT IT. BUT THERE 439 WERE TOO MANY GERMAN CITIZENS THERE, I GUESS. IT JUST MAKES ME NERVOUS 440 KNOWING THAT THE PEOPLE WHO SHELTERED ALL THEIR NAZI BUDDIES AFTER WWII 441 DOWN THERE ARE GONNA HAVE A NUCLEAR ARSENAL. LOOK OUT CHILE. 442 443 BY THE WAY, DID YOU ALL KNOW THAT THE GOVERNMENT LISTENS TO ALL OVERSEAS 444 PHONE CALLS? AND MANY KINDS OF COMPUTER DATA TRANSMISSIONS? EVER WONDER 445 IF THEY'RE LISTENING TO YOU? MAYBE THERE'S ANOTHER REASON THAT THE 446 PHONE CO WANTS TO KNOW ABOUT YOUR MODEM. I'M AFRAID A LOT OF PEOPLE ON THIS 447 BBS HAVE ILLUSIONS ABOUT WHAT'S LEGAL AND WHATS NOT, AS WELL AS WHO IN 448 GOVERNMENT AND INDUSTRY CARES WHATS LEGAL. HINT - THEY WILL DO AS THEY 449 PLEASE - AND YOU WON'T EVEN KNOW ABOUT IT, LET ALONE BE ABLE TO STOP THEM. 450 SENATOR KENNEDY MAKES JOKES EVERY OTHER SPEACH ABOUT THE NSA,NSC, FBI 451 ETC TAPPING HIS PHONE. IF HE CAN'T STOP IT, WHAT CHANCE DO YOU HAVE? 452 453 WELL, ENOUGH ALREADY 454 455 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!HROTHGAR, THE IMPERIALIST LACKEY!!!!!!!!!!! 456 457 re: Grenada 458 Let me pose a question. If you were living in a country where a violent coup 459 had taken place and a radical communist government took over, would you want 460 to continue living like that or would you rather have the U.S. come in 461 and have free elections, so you would 462 at leastbe able to choose your own government. Nobody seems to care what the 463 Granadians think. 464 465 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~ 466 467 Leonard: Are you deliberately twisting my argument or does your closed 468 mind allow you to read only what it wants you to read rather than what 469 I have written. Also it is rather difficult for someone trained in logic 470 to respond to your messages which are largely if not totally devoid of 471 logic. I will again attempt to do so, however. 472 Firstly, if you don't remember having such a belief regarding the sky, 473 I suspect that either you were an "unusual" child (which is not difficult 474 to believe) or that your memory is defective (which also seems a definite 475 possibility). In any case, whether or not you had such a belief is not im- 476 portant. The point I was attempting to illustrate by the analogy is. 477 Also the fact that my example involves a child is not important; I could 478 have also cited an example regarding post graduate studies, but since 479 the curriculum at this level is dependant on the major of the particular 480 student it would be much more difficult to find an example that all could 481 relate to. The point is that the object of any education is to change 482 the students beliefs either by adding to them or by correcting misconcep- 483 tions. You have stated that there is a conciderable difference between 484 education and eliminating christianity. This is true. I have never stated 485 otherwise. It sounds as though you are trying to compare causes with 486 effects. In both the case of my example and the function of my pro- 487 posed atheist organization, the cause is education and the effect is the 488 elimination of ignorance. You seem to think that though religions, since 489 the beginning of history, have attempted to promote and teach others their 490 beliefs (and thereby eliminate atheism) atheists have not the same right. 491 Perhaps there is a need for an atheist rights movement after all, 492 but I suspect that there are not too many who subscribe to your double 493 standards. 494 Your statement "The essential tenets of most religions are not sub- 495 ject to proof" is amusing. The only reason they have not been subject to 496 proof is that they are unprovable. If they were provable, I assure you 497 that such proof would be widely publicized by the proponents of that re- 498 ligion. Beyond this, I fail to see what this has to do with my analogy. 499 Allow me to answer your next questoion, "where are you going to stop?", 500 with a question. If christians have their way, when will they stop trying 501 to "spread the word"? Answer: When everyone is a christian. If someone 502 believes he has information that could greatly enhance someone elses life, 503 or that of society in general, and he does not make that information avail- 504 able, and make it well known that it is available, this does not say much 505 for his attitude toward humanity. 506 In your next question it appears that you are attempting to infer that 507 I am suggesting extermination of Christians. I made it very clear that 508 this was not the case. There is a big difference between eliminating 509 christians and eliminating Christianity. One refers to people while the 510 other refers to a set of archaic superstitions. 511 Your next statement I'm not quite sure how to interpret. Is this 512 supposed to be a prophecy of "the second coming"? According to Masters & 513 Johnson its not likely. Anyway, I predict that PEOPLE will show the 514 shortcomings of these beliefs, not the beliefs themselves. Unfortunately, 515 when the shortcoming of a belief is shown by its proponents it is result- 516 ant of some disaster (war or whatever) which has arisen from that belief. 517 So if an opponent can demonstrate these shortcomings before the occurance 518 of such a disaster, I find that preferable. 519 Your next paragraph I have already dealt with. The fact that my 520 example involved a child is irrelevant. 521 522 Deborah: Have you ever tried shaking 17 parts of a meat chopper in a wash 523 tub for 17 billion years? In that length of time, damn near anything 524 could happen, including the formation 525 of a complete meat chopper. At any rate, noone here has suggested that 526 evolution involves random chance. In fact, I have gone to great lengths 527 (before your arrival on BWMS) to indicate my disbelief in the existence 528 of such (random chance, that is). Also, I think you suffer another misconcep- 529 tion regarding evolution. It does not imply that anything has come into being 530 on its own. Additionally, can we say that because houses are created, 531 everything must be created. This is eqivalent to saying "since grass 532 is green, everything is green." 533 I think you are mistaking regarding the reason most people reject 534 the idea of creation. If we were to accept the existance of such a super- 535 being, I see no reason to believe that he/she/it would not be able to create 536 a universe in six days, six minutes or six blinks of an eye. I suspect that 537 some of your colleagues would lable you "heretic" for even suggesting that 538 he/she/it has such limitations. 539 My reason, and I believe the most common reason for discounting the 540 existence of a deity is that there is insurmountable evidence in sup- 541 port of the evolutionary theory and virutually none whatsoever (at least 542 that I am aware of) in support of creatonism. "d" has promised to pro- 543 vide me with such evidence, but as yet I have not seen it. 544 I also dispute your description of the bible. It is not a book about 545 god, it is a collection of books, written by a number of ancients barely 546 "evolved" from cave dwellers, who had 547 none of the advantages we have today, such as scientific methods or equip- 548 ment or millenia of study, for ascertaining the nature of the universe; 549 and it is about THEIR BELIEFS regarding god. No doubt you will claim 550 that they had the advantage of "divine enlightenment", but because this too 551 is self proclaimed by the writers, it is also an expression of their belief, 552 which is subject to the same disadvantages. Moreover, we have no way 553 of ascertaining which of those writers were even attempting to relate 554 factual material. As far as we know there have always been fictional 555 writers, as well as those who deliberately attempt to deceive the public. 556 As I mentioned before the time element does not really concern me, 557 but I think I should point out that what we are disputing is not the de- 558 velopment of a planet, but the creation of (as Carl would put it) 559 "billllllions and billllllions" of stars and planets and nebulae and 560 quasars, pulsars, black holes, etc. Or are you suggesting that these 561 were created by some other gods? 562 Yes, I think belief in god is worth considering, and as I have 563 mentioned previously (ask "d" for details) I have spent a rather signif- 564 icant portion of my life in such consideration. I feel I have given it 565 far more consideration than it is due. 566 567 Dirty Ol' Man 568 569 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~ 570 571 ######################################## 572 DOM: I HATE TO TELL YOU, BUT IT SEEMS THAT GOD IS ALIVE AND WELL- HE'S LIVIN 573 IN THE WHITE HOUSE AND IS STILL IN THE PROCESS OF CREATING THE WORLD ACCORD 574 ING TO HIS PLAN. 575 I HAVE A QUESTION AS TO THE STUDENTS ON GRENADA: JUST WHY WERE THEY THERE? 576 COULD IT BE THAT THEY COULDN'T PASS THE ENTRANCE EXAMS HERE IN THE US? COULD 577 IT BE THAT THEIR PARENTS ARE BUYING THEM THE RIGHT TO PRACTICE MEDICINE? 578 FROM THE ONES THAT I HAVE SEEN EXPOUNDING THEIR FEAR OF THE SITUATION ON THE 579 ISLAND, I DON'T THINK I WOULD WANT TO TRUST MY HEALTH LET ALONE ANYTING ELSE 580 TO THOSE SPOILED PREPPY TYPES. 581 WELL, NOW, HAVE I OFFENDED ENOUGH PEOPLE? IF I KEEP THIS UP I WILL HAVE TO 582 BECOME A REPUBLICAN: 583 584 #################C.Y.M.##############################10/27 8:46AM########### 585 586 DOM: I *FINALLY* got you to clear up an ambiguity in YOUR statements. 587 Don't accuse me of reading things into statements that were not 588 what the sender intended. That is what your previous msg to me 589 was! I did NOT say you couldn't try to persuade someone to change 590 their beliefs. I said they had a right to differ with you (this 591 also implies the right to tell you to quit bugging them about it!) 592 As for my statement regarding unprovability, I meant EXACTLY that! In such 593 cases we are talking about SCIENTIFIC proof, *NOT* LOGICAL proof. 594 You are once again asserting that "since no one has proved it true, 595 it must be false"! And you accuse ME of being illogical? Also, 596 the bit about the kid has definite bearing. A "post-graduate student" 597 is an adult. In any case, I will concede the point. (by the way 598 it is getting VERY difficult to respond to you, you are raising 599 to many points at once) 600 I object to your establishing an organization for the avowed purpose 601 of getting rid of a religion. An "atheist rights" group, fine. 602 603 As for your latest comment about d, I don't seem to remember her 604 statement quite the same way you do. She said nothing about "creationism" & 605 I'm not certain that she was going to "prove the existence of God" either. 606 Perhaps you should consider the fact that many of us are writing 607 these msgs as we go & not working from a prepared, polished text. 608 Thus, if we seem to be saying something you find indefensible 609 please consider the fact that we may have been attempting to say 610 something a bit TOO simply and thereby distorted our original meaning. 611 My original comments on beliefs & people's rights to have them 612 weren't intend the way you seem to be taking them. I cannot at 613 this time think of a way to express the thought involved without 614 you getting us even FARTHER afield. Beliefs may not be the right 615 word but it is the only one I can think of that fits. Why do you 616 always seem to descend to attacking my "qualifications" & style 617 instead of trying to find out what I "really" meant. We would get 618 a lot farther if instead of attacking, you were to say "surely you 619 don't mean X, could you possibly have meant Y? I realize that for 620 some this would take all the "fun" out of it, but surely you are 621 above that? 622 623 C.Y.M: 6 months ago I and some friends were wondering what (if anything) 624 the US would do about the "Cuban base" being built on Grenada. I see that 625 Reagan waited for the LOCAL GOVERNMENTS to ask for US help. As for 626 Hey,Aaron! This is Larry! I finally got on this #$%& system... I read 627 your messages(dialogue?) earlier, and am very impressed with your colleagues 628 ideas. Please leave me a note... 629 thanx[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][[][][][][][][[][][]]LARRY[][][][][]][][][]