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2 ********************** REMOVED: 29 SEP 83 **************************
3 Welcome to BWMS (BackWater Message System) Mike Day System operator
4 ************************************************************
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23 ========================================
24
25 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
26 To CYM and DOM ect.
27 While it is true that religon has had significant roles in many wars,
28 it is very nieve to think that it is the only cause. No war is brought
29 about due to one thing. There are a multitude of things which lead up to
30 war. The one reason that people like to quote as the cause of a war is
31 really only the final straw in an overloaded burden that sets off the war.
32 Shall we take WWII? I have heard a great many of things said to be
33 the cause of this war. Was it religon? Was it economic? Was it a power
34 struggle? In reality it was all of these and more. Even the desire to not
35 war was a part of the problem, for it allowed things to build to a point
36 where world war was inevitable. The economic situation in Germany allowed
37 Hitler to come to power. Hitler's beliefs and thirst for power allowed
38 him to do so. The beleif by hs followers and the populance that he knew
39 what he was doing allowed him to make war on those around. The fear of
40 getting into yet another war prevented the surrounding countries from
41 helping to stop him. These are only a few of the things which allowed
42 the war to happen. It is never such a simple thing as you seem to beleive.
43 The time when people will say no to war despite the prodings of the
44 leaders will be the time that we have truly reached civilization. Until
45 then we are no better then animals fighting amongst ourselves. By the
46 way, for what it is worth, even animals make war on each other, and
47 murder each other, and not just for the sake of food or survival. Did
48 you know that when a new stalion Zebra takes over a heard that he will
49 herase any pregnant mares until they spontaniously abort? Or what about
50 the tribe of monkeys in africa which made war on a neigboring tribe and
51 wiped them out completly over a 5 year span. What of the gorilas who
52 are not adverse to killing the old and frail because they are no longer
53 a productive part of the community, and therefor a drain? Or that when
54 a new leader takes over he will kill any babies that are there
55 presumibaly because they are not his. The strange thing is that the
56 females will become immediatly receptive upon this occurance. Even if
57 they are already preganant, or he has just killed their baby.
58 No, we are no better then the animals that we profess to be above.
59 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Watermark %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
60 ###############################################################################
61 WATERMARK: YOUR ABOVE STATEMENTS ARE VERY INTERESTING BUT I FAIL TO BELIEVE
62 WHAT YOU ARE STATING WITHOUT SOME SUBSTANCIATION OF YOUR 'FACTS'. I WAS RAISED
63 IN EUROPE DURRING THE WWII YEARS, WARSAW IN 1938-39, PARIS, 39-40, MADRID 40,
64 AND THE DURATION TILL THE DEATH OF F.D.R IN GREAT BRITTON,. TO THIS DAY I SHALL
65 ALWAYS REMEMBER THE RELIGIOUS ASPECTS OF THAT WAR MUCH MORRE CLEARLY THAN ANY
66 OTHER. I SAW BIGOTRY IN ACTION EVEN AMONGST OUR ALLIES.
67
68 DOM: THANKS, MAYBE WE SHOULD START OUR OWN 'CHURCH'. WE COULD ALWAYS USE THE
69 MENTIONED "HITCHIKERS GUIDE" AS OUR UR "BIBLE".
70
71 ###################C.Y.M.######################################################
72 *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*
73 Aaron:
74 Thanks for the lesson, I'm sure it helped alot of people. I even learned
75 some new things...The prince also belatedly thanks you for your gracious
76 welcome.
77 All:
78 On the Christianity issue, someone above mentioned the main reason I
79 became a doubtful agnostic at age 12. Christians believe that man is
80 inherantly evil, i.e. the concept of original sin. Thus if a man lives
81 his life better than 99% of Christians and makes a logical decision to
82 reject Jesus and the Church he is doomed. I find this paradox to be
83 unacceptable. In my mind man is not inherantly evil, nor should he be
84 punished for a choice that he makes honestly and logically even if it
85 turns out to be wrong.
86 Michael
87 *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*
88
89 }
90 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
91 AARON, I'M TERRIBLY SORRY THAT I DIDN'T ANSWER YOU SOONER, I'VE HAD A
92 VERY HARD TIME GETTING ONTO THE SYSTEM LATELY. AS TO CONTEMPORARY
93 EDUCATION, I'M HOPING THAT YOU CAN GIVE ME A LITTLE INFORMATION AS TO
94 THE DIRECTIONS THAT ARE BEING TAKEN (AS I ASSUME THAT YOU ARE STILL IN
95 PUBLIC SCHOOL). AS I SAID, LOGIC AND CRITICAL THINKING WAS PART OF
96 THE CURRICULUM IN HIGH SCHOOL, AS PART OF ENGLISH AND WRITING. TODAY,
97 IT SEEMS THAT FEW PEOPLE THAT COME OUT OF PUBLIC SCHOOLS ARE AWARE OF
98 HOW AN ARGUMENT IS CONSTRUCTED, OR WHAT THE RULES OF LOGIC ARE. ALSO,
99 AS SO MUCH OF ENGLISH IS BASED ON LATIN, I HAVE FOUND IT VERY IMPORTANT
100 FOR UNDERSTANDING A WORD I'VE NEVER SEEN BEFORE BY EXAMINING ITS LATIN
101 ROOTS. BUT LATIN ISN'T EVEN OFFERED AS AN ELECTIVE TODAY, FROM WHAT
102 I'VE HEARD, AND I CAN'T UNDERSTAND WHY. PERHAPS YOU COULD ELUCIDATE?
103 BY THE WAY, I AM USING MA 76 NOW, SO THE PEOPLE WITHOUT WRAP-AROUND CAN
104 READ MY BLAH-DLAH-AND-MORE-BLAH.
105 IN REGARD TO THE RELIGION ISSUE, I FIND THAT, WHILE I AGREE THAT
106 RELIGION IS A SOURCE OF GREAT PAIN AND SORROW IN THIS WORLD, I THINK
107 THAT IT IS USUALLY USED AS JUSTIFICATION FOR WAR, RATHER THAN THE REASON
108 FOR THE WAR ITSELF. THOSE IN POWER THAT WANT A WAR TO CREATE GAIN FOR
109 THEMSELVES OR TO HELP THEIR EGOS USE IT TO FIRE THEIR SUBJECTS UP AND
110 GIVE THEM A "REASON" FOR FIGHTING AND PERISHING. THEY CYNICALLY USE
111 THE FAITH OF THEIR PEOPLE FOR THEIR OWN PURPOSES, AND THEY USUALLY DON'T
112 BELIEVE IN GOD THEMSELVES.
113 WWII HAD SO MANY CAUSES THAT IF WE WANT TO DISCUSS THEM ALL, WE
114 WILL BE ON THE SUBJECT FOR A LOOOOOOONG TIME. IN MANY WAYS, WWII CAN BE
115 CONSIDERED A CONTINUATION OF WWI DUE TO THE WORLD-WIDE DEPRESSION IT
116 CREATED THROUGH RUINED ECONOMIES AND THE TOTAL ELIMINATION OF WORKING
117 CAPITAL THROUGHOUT EUROPE. PLUS, THE TREATY OF VERSAILLES MADE IT
118 CERTAIN THAT A NEW WAR WOULD HAPPEN, AS IT STRIPPED GERMANY OF NEARLY
119 ALL OF ITS INDUSTRY AND CAPITAL BY THE REPARATIONS THAT HAD TO BE MADE.
120 SHORT OF LETTING EVERYONE STARVE, THEY HAD LITTLE CHOICE BUT CONTINUE
121 ON A WAR ECONOMY THAT WOULD FEED SOME OF THE PEOPLE. PLUS, THE TREATY
122 CREATED SO MANY PROBLEMS THAT A HANDY SCAPEGOAT HAD TO BE FOUND, AND
123 THE ANCIENT HATRED OF JEWS CAME IN QUITE HANDY FOR THAT PURPOSE.
124 WOODROW WILSON PREDICTED THAT DIRE AND TERRIBLE CONSEQUENCES WOULD BE
125 THE RESULT OF THE TREATY, BUT HE WAS IGNORED IN THE DESIRE TO EXACT
126 THE REVENGE THAT THE PEOPLE WANTED.
127 d, I WISH THAT I HAD YOUR STYLE!! I ADMIRE YOUR ABILITIES AND
128 HOPE THAT YOU WILL STAY AROUND A LONG TIME. THOSE THAT COMPLAIN ABOUT
129 POETRY USUALLY ARE EMBARRESSED BY THE EMOTIONS EXPRESSED, AND FIND
130 THAT THEY CAN'T EXPRESS THEIR OWN WELL. I CAN'T ALWAYS EXPRESS MINE WELL
131 BUT I ADMIRE THOSE THAT CAN.
132 ONE MORE COMMENT ON THE RELIGION TOPIC: THE EXISTENCE OF GOD
133 CAN'T BE PROVED OR DISPROVED TO MINE (OR ANYONE ELSES) SATISFACTION, SO
134 THE QUESTION OF ITS EXISTENCE IS MOOT. EXIST OR NOT, THE UNIVERSE IS
135 WHAT IT IS, AND WON'T CHANGE FOR YOU OR ME. I DON'T BELIEVE IN GOD, NOR
136 DO I DISBELIEVE. I MERELY WAIT FOR GOD TO OFFER PROOF OF ITS EXISTENCE,
137 AND THEN I WILL DECIDE.
138 MIKEY, YES I DID CHANGE! I CHANGE THE CHARACTER DEPENDING UPON MY
139 EMOTIONAL STATE OR THE DIRECTION OF THE COMMENTS I HAVE MADE. I LOVE
140 OBSERVANT PEOPLE!!!
141 [][][][][][][][][][][][]PAM![][][][][][]
142 I wish people using this system would learn to spell. This means you, WATERMARK
143 ########################################
144 PAM: YOU JUST MADE MY POINT MUCH BETTER THAN I DID. IF IT WASN'T FOR RELIGION
145 THERE WOULD BE NO REASON FOR WAR. TAKE AWAY THE REASON AND YOU TAKE AWAY THE CAUSE
146 IF THERE IS NOTHING TO BLAME IT ON THEN WHO CAN FOLLOW BLINDLY THELEADER THAT
147 CALLS US TO ARMS TO BETTER HIS FINANCIAL BEING.
148
149 #####################################################C.Y.M.#####################
150 to all
151 All this talk on religion is pure poppycock. I'm with the guy that stated that it would take more tiTaylor
163 I don't get what all the talk about past wars will help.
164 How about talking what can stop the war to come.
165
166 gordon taylor
180
181 Pam, having survived more schooling than I can stand, may I comment on a
182 few of you questions about education.
183 Rules of debate were often taught under the name of logic, but debating
184 is like war, rules are for breaking unless they help you. What is called
185 logic now is not the same thing. Philosophy and logic are now considerd
186 sub sets of mathematics. What I was taught under that name was more that
187 useless: it made me hate the subject. As to the teaching of Latin, and
188 its use in understanding modern English, it was generally a failure simply
189 because it wasn't taught that way. Trying to learn a dead language by having
190 it crammed down your throat doesn't work. I did, however, learn a lot about
191 Latin & its use in deciphering English technical terms from a course in
192 BIOLOGY. I think the course name is less important than how the teacher
193 feels about his/her subject. I would think some of the origions and
194 relationships between words would belong in English classes, but never
195 having met a competent English teacher, I wouldn't know (competent implies
196 able to interest the students) But then a competent person is not likely
197 to be willing to work for the lousy pay they geve teachers.
198 ////////////////////////////////BAD\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
199
200 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~
201
202 Watermark: What does "nieve" mean?
203 Although your intent was apparently to contest that religion
204 is the root of war, you have failed to do so. Perhaps my original disertation
205 on the subject lacked clarity. It is not my contention that the cause of
206 war is singular, rathar that most of the causes have a common root;
207 religion. For example, consider economics. Few would deny that economics
208 is often a motivation for war; what, though, is the root cause of economic
209 ills and greed? Most often, religion. The scientific community, throughout
210 its existence, has seeked truth, and as a by-product, considerably im-
211 proved the standard of human life and in general, the world economy. What
212 could have needed achieved had they not needed drag the anchor "religion"
213 throughout history.
214 ################################
215 This system has problems tonight.
216 ################################
217 Anyway, consider the standard of living that might be predicted for
218 the year 2283, assuming we survive or avert WWIII. Now consider that this
219 standard of living could have been realized by 1983 (conservative estimate)
220 had it not been for the first milennium Christians who convinced the
221 populace of the world that life on earth would be extinguished in the
222 year 1000ad, and thereby created a 300+ year era of scientific apathy
223 known as the Dark Ages. Also how many years has the Inquisition set us back
224 by the murder of scientific innovators and the suppression of progress.
225
226
227 Comparing humans to animals is like comparing chrysanthemums to plants.
228 If you are suggesting that the Human
229 race has not yet begun to evolve
230 sociologically then I agree wholeheartedly.
231 I found very interesting a recent article in "Discover" magazine regarding
232 current research in DNA analysis which seems to indicate that we are much
233 closer to our ape ancestors than most of us care to admit. In fact, DNA
234 comparisons of human, chimpanzee and gorilla DNA show that (in evolutionary
235 terms) the human-chimpanzee relationship is closer than that of gorillas
236 and chimpanzees. Anyone who suggests that humans are not animals is
237 speaking emotionally, not logically unless they also claim that chimps
238 are not animals.
239
240 Dirty Ol' Man
241
242 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~
243
244 9/25/83 11:33 PM:
245
246 THIS IS THE BEST DISCUSSION I'VE SEEN ON HERE FOR AGES: KEEP IT UP!
247
248 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~
249
250 Unsigned above: (not to be confused with Anonymous, formerly formerly
251 Unsigned)
252 Thank You, but where's your contribution?
253 Express yourself!
254
255 Mikey: The system seems to be generating its own characters on
256 occasion tonight; specifically Carriage Returns and Backspaces.
257 Any Ideas?
258
259 Dirty
260
261 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~
262
263 [{(*)}]|[{(*)}]|[{(*)}]|[{(*)}]|[{(*)}]|[{(*)}]|[{(*)}]|[{(*)}]|[{(*)}]|[{(*)}]|
264 O thou misguided ones:
265 Why doest thou deify this mortal, Jesus Christ? Enlightenment warrants
266 respect; only descent from the court of Zeus warrants worship.
267
268 =Apollo=
269 [{(*)}]|[{(*)}]|[{(*)}]|[{(*)}]|[{(*)}]|[{(*)}]|[{(*)}]|[{(*)}]|[{(*)}]|[{(*)}]|
270 ........................
271 d, you beleive there is such a thing as a literal translation, that differs
272 from a paraphrase. all translations are inherently paraphrases, but don't
273 let this scare you. Anything that would keep any translation true also applies
274 to a paraphrase. A "literal" translation would perhaps be one in which each
275 word was replaced with an exact equivlaent in the new language, but if so it
276 would be unreadable & probably meaningless, as each word is different, and
277 no direct synonym exists; in addition the order of the words has meaning that
278 changes with the language. a further problem is that the bible contains
279 poetry, some of which will be lost in any translation. No comment about the
280 changes in culture that make oblique references incomprehensible.
281 As to the most basic meaning of the Bible, the Old Testament says "I am God",
282 The New says "believe in me, and be saved" Along with this the Old gives the
283 laws and history, and some idea as to how a saved person is expected to act.
284 What is read into it is far more than is written.
285 Back to the question of true translations: there are several known errors
286 in the King James version (by far the most widely read), both of fact and
287 simple typos that have remained due to tradition. Even more important is the
288 problem of the language: something written in 1611 isn't written in moern
289 English. This is the only Bible to many
290 ///////////////////////////////////////BAD\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
291
292 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~
293
294 Leonard: THINK!!
295 Is not -i=i^3??
296 So just cube SQR(i) and simplify.
297
298 Dirty
299
300 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~
301
302 *******************************************************************
303 All this talk of late reminds me of a quote by Emily Dickinson
304 "People talk of hallowed things aloud, and embarass my dog."
305 ********* CISTOP MIKEY ********* 26 SEPT 83 ******** 8:52 AM ******
306 DOM: Sorry, it's been a LONG time since I had to do proofs!
307
308 To: ALL Re: Religions & war
309 I beg to differ with many of the arguments given. Specifically,
310 that RELIGION is the main cause/excuse for wars. If you check back
311 you will find that MONOTHEISTIC religion is the main problem.
312 This is because it leads to the "we're right & everybody else is
313 wrong" point of view. The Romans & Greeks weren't all that threatened
314 by other people's religions, they would quite often make sacrifices to other
315 people's gods (just to play it safe!). Unfortunately, there are
316 some arguments that say Monotheism (& the greater degree of order
317 it required of the Universe) is responsible for the development
318 of Science.
319 Oh, by the way it is possible that God's existence could
320 be proven (note: This is NOT the same as saying that God's existence
321 CAN be proven. ie a proof may or may not exist, but the question
322 is not inherently unprovable). BUT, it is NOT possible to prove
323 that God doesn't exist! This is why I consider atheism to be at
324 least as much of an act of faith as any other religion. Personally,
325 I believe that God exists, however I'm not about to go any farther
326 than that (this is known as deism, many agnostics are really deists!)
327 ___________________________Leonard__________________________
328 ########################################
329 AS TO PROVING THE EXISTANCE OF 'GOD', I FIND IT HIGHLY UNLIKELY THAT THIS
330 CAN BE DONE. AFTER ALL YOU ARE WORKING WITH AN INTANGIBLE FIGMENT OF THE I
331 IMAGINATION. THERE IS NOT A SHRED OF EVIDENCE THAT WOULD STAND UP IN A PROP-
332 ERLY CONDUCTED COURT OF REASON. AFTERALL ALL THE EVIDENCE IS HEEARSAY!!! T
333 ALL THEHE 'EYE WITNESSES' HAVE LONG SINCE SHUFFLED OFF THIS MORTAL COIL. OUR
334 FOUNDING FATHERS MUST HAVE REALIZED THIS WHEN THEY SERARATED CHURCH FROM S
335 STATE. THE ONLY THING IS THAT THEY DIDN'T SEPARATE IF FAR ENOUGH. GIVING TAX
336 BREAKS ETC JUST RECOGNIZES ENOUGH OF IT TO KEEP IT REARING ITS UGLY HEAD IN
337 ALL OF OUR LIVES DAILY. I SAY IF WE MAKE RELIGION STAND ON ITS OWN TWO FEET
338 AND PAY ITS OWN WAY WE WOULD HAVE A LOT FEWER PROBLEMS.
339
340 ##################C.Y.M.####################################################
341 Indeed, a further possibility is that our 'God' is not the most powerful
342 or important one. I have often amused myself with the idea that the univers
343 e as we know it is merely a graduate thesis of a lowly student in the
344 school of deities-to-be. Someday, the thesis will be graded, then tossed
345 into a super-universal garbage can, or set on the shelf of a pan-dimensional
346 college library.
347 Maybe our graduate student, err..... God, is inexperienced,
348 which would explain why the world seems so screwed up at times. He may
349 be egotistical, which explains why he wants us to think that he is the
350 one and only big shot.
351 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: P. V. Jeltz::::::::::::::
352
353 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
354 CYM, YOU DIDN'T INTERPRET WHAT I SAID CORRECTLY. I DIDN'T SAY
355 THAT THERE WOULD BE NO REASON FOR WAR IF THERE WAS NO RELIGION. I
356 SAID THAT RELIGION IS FREQUENTLY USED AS A RATIONALIZATION FOR WAR,
357 OR AS A MEANS OF EXCITING THE POPULACE TO SUPPORTING A WAR. I DON'T
358 THINK THAT RELIGION IS THE SOURCE OF WAR OR ITS REASON AS OFTEN AS
359 TERRITORIALITY AND THE DESIRE FOR POWER IS. AS AN EXAMPLE, IRELAND
360 WAS AT ONE TIME STRICTLY CATHOLIC, AND ENGLAND PROTESTANT. WHEN
361 ENGLAND OVERTHREW THE IRISH KINGS, THEY KNEW THAT THE CATHOLIC IRISH
362 WOULD NEVER SUPPORT A PROTESTANT RULE, SO THEY IMPORTED ENGLISH AND
363 SCOTTISH PROTESTANTS TO BE THE LOCAL RULERS AND LANDOWNERS. THIS
364 LED TO A WAR (WHICH CONTINUES CENTURIES LATER) BETWEEN CATHOLICS AND
365 PROTESTANTS, THE CATHOLICS TOTALLY AND FIERCELY NATIONALISTIC, AND
366 THE RULING PROTESTANTS LOYAL TO THE ENGLISH CROWN. THE MINORITY
367 PROTESTANTS WERE CONCENTRATED IN THE NORTH, AND WHEN IT BECAME
368 OBVIOUS THAT ENGLAND COULDN'T HOLD ALL OF IRELAND FOREVER, THEY
369 PARTITIONED THE COUNTRY BETWEEN NORTH AND SOUTH, AND HELD ONTO THE
370 PROTESTANT NORTH THAT CONTINUED LOYAL TO HER. SINCE THE NEW NORTHERN
371 IRELAND WAS MOSTLY LOYAL TO ENGLAND, SHE COULD SAY THAT NORTHERN
372 IRELAND, A "SEPARATE COUNTRY", WANTED TO REMAIN PART OF THE EMPIRE.
373 THIS IS A FINE EXAMPLE OF A RULER USING THE FAITH OF ITS FOLLOWERS TO
374 BRING ABOUT WHAT IT WANTED (AND A WAR THAT IT DIDN'T WANT). IT
375 WASN'T RELIGION THAT BROUGHT ABOUT THE WAR, BUT RELIGION WAS USED AS
376 ONE OF ITS WEAPONS, AND A TOOL TO HELP MANIPULATE ITS PAWNS.
377
378 MIKEY, YOU'RE CORRECT ABOUT THE EFFECTS OF MONOTHEISM. IT
379 SEEMS TO BE ONE OF THE LEAST TOLERANT OF THE VARIOUS RELIGIOUS STYLES
380 AVAILABLE, BUT I THINK THAT IF THE RULERS UNDER PANTHEISMS KNEW
381 OF THE POWER OF MANIPULATION THAT THE FAITH OF THEIR PEOPLE COULD
382 PROVIDE, THEY MIGHT HAVE USED IT TOO.
383 THEN AGAIN, MAYBE NOT...........
384 [][][][][][][][][][][][]PAM?[][][][][][]
385 WHERE DID WE COME FROM?
386 ** * * * * ***
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399 **
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403 * ** * * *
404 ** ** * *
405
406
407
408
409 K
410 end
411
412
413
414 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 26 Sep 83 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
415 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 20:19 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
416 The respect is mutual, Pam; your voice comes in like a tailored
417 melody amidst the raucous shouts risen in debate...for you are ever
418 'the voice of reason' making peace between the men!
419 Leonard, how excellent your remark regarding atheism being "as
420 much an act of faith as any other religion"--for if a person refuses
421 to seriously consider the evidence FOR a creator, is he not just as
422 reprehensible as those who dogmatically hold to the religion of their
423 upbringing, never even questioning it in their own minds?
424 Michael, though the churches may teach that "man is inherently
425 evil", the Bible does not. The Greek word for sin is literally trans-
426 lated as "to miss the mark" which denotes imperfection. No one can
427 lay claim to being perfect, so in that sense all are 'sinners'.
428 DOM, CYM, you cry out for evidence. So be it: the jist of your
429 words have been scrawled painstakingly (as well as yours, Pam, BAD, dp,
430 and Leonard) regarding the existence of a creator and the credibility
431 of the Bible so that I can respond; for ever I return after the echoes
432 of your arguments have dissipated into the Backwater's archives...
433 which reminds me, dear Innkeeper: how is it that my writings pick
434 themselves up and traipse to current disks?!
435 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> d <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
436 ########################################
437 PAM: I'M SORRY THASAT YOU MIDUNDERSTOOD MY THEORY THAT WITHOUT RELIGION THER
438 WOULD BE NO WAR. I MERELY STATED THAT THOSE WHO WAGE WAR WOULD HAVE NO ONE
439 TO BEAR THE ARMS IF THEY DIDN'T HAVE RELIGION TO USE AS AN EXCUSE. CAN'T YOU
440 JUST SEE ALL THE PEOPLE RUSHING TO SIGN UP TO GO AND FIGHT IN THE MID-EAST
441 IF IT WAS ADVERTISED AS 'LET'S LIBERATE STANDARD, EXXON, MOBIL, ETC WAR'
442 AFTER ALL THEY CAN'T MAKE THEIR OBSCENE PROFITS WITHOUT YOUR BLOODSHED! ERGO
443 THE RELIGIOUS THEME ALONG WITH MOTHER, APPLE PIE, AND LOOK WHAT THEY ARE
444 DOING TO THOSE POOR JEWS, OR CHRISTIANS OR WHOEVER HAPPENS TO DRAW THE BEST
445 CROWD THESE DAYS WHEN IT COME TO FIGHTING FOR "OUR RIGHTS".
446 ###################C.Y.M.###################################################
447
448 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~
449
450 To the person above ("k"?) who wasted 27 lines to demonstrate his
451 semiartistic abilities: Perhaps next time you are faced with the dilema of
452 being unable to express your disagreement with my statements, due to the
453 lack of logical reasons for doing so, you can do something more creative,
454 such as illustrating a vertically extended middle finger.
455
456 Leonard: No problem. I too have found greater joys in life than
457 doing proofs, but if you plan on taking any math classes beyond
458 Calculus, I have dreadful news for you: YOU'RE STUCK WITH EM. Sorry!
459
460 Regarding the distinction between mono and polytheism, I believe you may
461 have a valid point; that monotheism presents a greater threat to the
462 well-being of mankind. Perhaps we have over-generalized a bit, but then
463 generalization is the essence of BWMS. Also the interpretation of the word
464 "religion" is debatable. Some would regard atheism as a religion. In the
465 sense that I have used it herein, it refers to any doctrine which advocates
466 the existence of one or more deities.
467 Whether or not monotheistic, though,
468 I still feel that any religion is to some extent detrimental in that it
469 consumes valuable time which could otherwise be dedicated to more pro-
470 ductive purposes, such as the betterment of the Human condition.
471 Other detriments depend on the specifics of the religion in question.
472
473 With regard to proof, I challenge anyone to prove anything (I am
474 speaking in the general sense of the words "proof" & "prove", not math-
475 ematical, logical, etc.) Why not start with something simpler than
476 the existance of god; how about your own existence, or the existance of
477 life, or that of BWMS. I sincerely doubt that ANYTHING can be proven.
478
479 P. V.: Interesting thought, but it has inspired an even more dreadful
480 one. Perhaps god is a .................high school student!
481 (Let's pray for summer vacation.)
482
483 d: I would be delighted to consider the evidence for the existance of a
484 creator, and as mentioned earlier, I spent seven years of my life attempting
485 to do so; but I found no evidence to consider. There is a practical time
486 limit for everything. If a person belives he has a dime in his pocket,
487 how long must he look without finding
488 it before concluding that he must have
489 been wrong?
490
491 With regard to your paragraph to Micheal, you say that man is not
492 inherantly evil, and in the same breath (keystroke) that all [men]
493 are sinners. I believe you have proven (if we are to accept your
494 assumptions) that sin is not evil. Was that your intention??
495
496 With regard to your paragraph to CYM and myself, I'm not sure I understand.
497 Are you saying that you have evidence but you prefer to keep us in suspence,
498 or that you need time to think?
499
500 Dirty Ol' Man
501
502 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~
503
504 Having once read a story about a computer simulation that went astray: the
505 simulated town got religion, I laughed at the idea of a high school good.
506 but, to the simulation, the programmer IS god. he is omnipotent, and
507 unknowable. he gives the final verdict: do it my way, or I will pull the
508 plug. The town argues long abut what a plug is, but if they disobey...
509 More than one god (programmer) would cause what? confusion??
510 Beware of clouds that look like large IBM cards, do not spindle, etc.
511 ////////////////////////////BAD\\\\\\\,\,\\\\\,\\\\\\\\\\\\
512 ######################################## YES, I HATE TO ADMIT IT BUT 'GOD'
513 SEEMS TO BE JUST LIKE A BIG KAYPRO IN THE SKY. GARBAGE IN! GARBAGE OUT:
514
515 ####################C.Y.M.##################################################
516 ****************************************************************
517 PAM: Just a point of note, It was Leonard who spoke of monotheism.
518 However, I do find that I tend to agree with your observations in most cases.
519 DOM: Carefull about speaking too highly of the scientific community.
520 Remember they also brought us the engines with wich to wage the wars
521 you are so adament about. Not to mention the most destructive force
522 known to man the atomic bomb. These would not have come into being
523 were it not for the scientists.
524 Leonard: If what you speak of is self beliefs, and not orginized religion
525 as the main allowance of war, then I would agree with you. It is the
526 very strong belief that what you believe is correct is right and that
527 the enimy is wrong that allows people to fight and kill. In fact, this
528 must be advanced by the leaders to place the concept in the heads of
529 those who are fighting. This can cause rather significant sideeffects
530 as well (such as the imprisionment of the Japanese by the US during WWII
531 caused by the propaganda against Japanese. However, I don't nessasarily
532 believe that it is the 'cause' of all wars. Of course at this level you
533 could get into the argument that greed, power thirst, and teritorial
534 disputing are appart of the basic beliefs of the individuals involved.
535 You believe you and the world as you see it exists, and I believe that
536 me and my world exists. These are a very basic part of us, and will
537 always be there. This is religion in the stand point that it is a
538 belief. As is obvious by the messages that have flowed across our
539 screens, not everyones beliefs of the world matchs everyone elses.
540 d: No, I have not moved your writings from disk to disk. I have however
541 at times compressed the disks in order to obtain enough room to add a
542 comment at the end. This would result in you messages being moved to
543 another line on the disk. Perhaps this is what confused you?
544 *********** CISTOP MIKEY ******** 27 SEPT 83 ********* 9:00AM ***********
545
546 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
547 A NEW DISK WITH MORE THAN 70 LINES LEFT ON THIS ONE? MIKEY MUST
548 HAVE KNOWN IT WOULD FILL UP BEFORE HE ARRIVED HOME FROM WORK.
549 HMMMM.....A PROOF THAT I EXIST IS A CLASSIC PHILOSOPHICAL
550 PROBLEM, BUT IT USUALLY COMES DOWN TO THE STATEMENT THAT YOU CAN'T
551 PROVE ANYTHING UNTIL YOU'VE ESTABLISHED THE POSTULATES THAT CAN BE
552 USED IN THE PROOF. PROOFS IN PLANE GEOMETRY ALWAYS GO BACK TO A
553 POSTULATE (SUCH AS "A POINT IS DEFINED AS A POSITION WITHOUT
554 DIMENSION") THAT IS ACCEPTED WITHOUT ANY PROOF. WHAT POSTULATES
555 SHALL WE USE FOR THIS PROOF? IF WE HAVE NO POSTULATES, WE CAN HAVE
556 NO PROOF. WE MUST HAVE SOME PLACE TO BEGIN FROM, CONCEPTS WE AGREE
557 ON, OR THE PROOF WON'T BE ACCEPTED. A NON-LOGICAL PROOF? A PROOF
558 BASED UPON LOGIC ISN'T A PROOF, IT'S AN OPINION. THE RULES OF
559 LOGIC AND ARGUMENT MUST APPLY, OR WE CAN'T ARRIVE AT CONCLUSIONS.
560 CYM, PERHAPS YOU'RE RIGHT ABOUT MY MISUNDERSTANDING YOU. YOU'VE
561 USED THE TERMS "CAUSE" AND "REASON" AT FIRST, THEN CHANGED TO
562 "EXCUSE". AS THESE TERMS IMPLY TOTALLY DIFFERENT CONCEPTS, YOU'RE
563 INTERCHANGING THEM MAY HAVE LEFT ME WITH A INCORRECT IDEA OF WHAT YOU
564 MEANT. IF YOU MEAN THAT RELIGION QUITE OFTEN IS USED AS AN EXCUSE TO
565 RALLY PEOPLE FOR A CAUSE NOT RELATED TO THE RELIGION, WE ARE IN
566 AGREEMENT. IF YOU MEAN THAT RELIGION IS THE PRIMARY CAUSE OF WARS (A
567 DIFFERENT CONCEPT), WE AREN'T.
568 MIKEY: OOPS!!
569 BAD, AS YOU'VE SAID THAT THE RULES OF LOGIC AND ARGUMENT ARE
570 MADE TO BE BROKEN, I FEEL THAT I MUST STATE THAT I CAN'T ACCEPT AN
571 ARGUMENT THAT ISN'T BASED UPON THOSE RULES. TO ME, THE MOST
572 IMPORTANT LOGICAL ERRORS MADE THAT ARE NOT ACCEPTABLE ARE
573 1) ARGUMENT FROM AUTHORITY (THE BIBLE SAYS SO); 2) ARGUMENT FROM
574 IRRELEVANCE (IF MAN WERE SUPPOSED TO FLY HE WOULD HAVE BEEN GIVEN
575 WINGS); 3) ARGUMENT FROM ANECDOTE (MY COUSIN HAS A FRIEND WHO'S
576 SISTERS TEACHER'S BROTHER SAID...); 4) ARGUMENT FROM INTERNAL
577 CONVICTION (I HAVE FAITH!!!); AND THE ONE THAT I'VE SEEN MORE OFTEN
578 THAT I COULD HAVE BELIEVE POSSIBLE, 5) ARGUMENT FROM PERSONAL ABUSE
579 (WHO CARES WHAT YOU SAY, YOU'RE JUST A MORON ANYWAY). THERE ARE
580 MANY OTHERS (AND I WON'T WASTE SPACE IN THE ATTEMPT TO WRITE THEM ALL
581 DOWN) BUT THESE ARE THE ONES THAT APPEAR ON BWMS MOST OFTEN. THE OLD
582 CLICHE OF LAWS MADE TO BE BROKEN IS A FALLACY. I DOUBT THAT ANYONE
583 EVER MADE A LAW IN ORDER FOR PEOPLE TO BREAK IT.
584
585 [][][][][][][][][][][]PAM.[][][][][][][]
586 Z/Z/Z/Z/Z/Z/Z/Z/Z/Z/Z/Z/Z/Z/Z?Z?Z/Z/Z?Z/Z/Z/Z/Z/Z/z/Z/Z/Z/
587 TO EVERYONE :
588 WOULDN'T IT BE NICE IF EVERYONE SUOGECTED THAT THE MCESD
589 SET UP A SEPPERATE HP 3000 FOR USE BY THOSE WHO WISH TO
590 "LEARN" FROM IT..?
591 /Z/Z/Z/Z?Z/Z/Z?Z/Z/Z/Z/Z/Z/Z/Z/Z/ XENON /Z/Z/Z/Z/
592 DOM, don't be so hot under the collar; it was artistic, it took effort
593 AND, someone notice you.
594 //////////////////////////////////////BAD\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
595 This is line 596 out of 629 lines, so where is all the talk? This is disk
596 already! Get going folks!