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1 If you are in need of help, you need but ask....
2 ********************** REMOVED: 23 SEP 83 **************************
3 Welcome to BWMS (Backwater Message System) Mike Day System operator
4 ************************************************************
5 GENERAL DISCLAIMER: BWMS IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INFORMATION PLACED ON
6 THIS SYSTEM.
7 BWMS was created as an electronic bill board. BWMS is a privatly owned
8 and operated system which is currently open for use by the general public.
9 No restrictions are placed on the use of the system.
10 It is intended that the system be normally used for messages and
11 advertisments by the users. As the system is privatly owned, I retain the
12 right to remove any and all messages which I may find offensive
13 to me. Additionally because of the limited size of the disk, it will be
14 periodically purged of older messages. (only 629 lines of data can be saved)
15 The saved information will be cycled to drive 'B' while the information on
16 drive 'B' will be archived, and a fresh disk will be installed in drive 'A'.
17 To leave a message, type 'ENTER' and use ctrl/C or break to get out
18 of the enter mode. The message is automaticly stored.
19 If after entering the message you find you made a mistake,
20 use the replace command to replace the line.
21 To exit from the system, type 'OFF' then hang up.
22 Type 'HELP' to see other commands that are available on the system.
23 ========================================
24
25 TO CONTINUE, AS FOR LIGHT ON DARK/DARK ON LIGHT, IT REALLY DEPENDS ON AN
26 ENORMOUS NUMBER OF FACTORS. MANY OF THEM RELATED TO THE HARDWARE. ONE
27 ASPECT THAT MOST FORGET IS THAT FOR THE DARK ON LIGHT TO BE ACCEPTABLE
28 YOU MUST USE A VERY HIGH QUALITY CRT OF WHICH MOST ARE NOT. THIS IS BECAUSE
29 IN THE LOWER QUALITY CRTS THE LETTERS TEND TO BLURE TOGETHER. IN THE LOWER
30 QUALITY CRTS THIS RESULTS IN LETTERS THAT HAVE DIFFERENT LINE WIDTHS DEPENDING
31 ON THE SPECIFIC COMPOSITION OF THE LETTER. IT IS FAR EASIER AND CHEAPER TO
32 JUST PROVIDE THE LIGHT ON DARK FORMAT. THE PROBLEM WITH MOST CRTS THAT
33 PROVIDE THE OPTION TO GO THE OTHER WAY IS THAT THEY ARE NOT OF SUFFICIENT
34 QUALITY TO DO IT PROPERLY. BUT EVEN HERE THERE ARE ASPECTS TO CONSIDER.
35 IF THE CRT IS USING GRAY SCALE DISPLAY, THEN THE WHOLE CONCEPT HAS TO BE
36 RECONSIDERED. HOW DO YOU DISPLAY THE GRAY? THE TERMINAL I AM USING IS
37 CAPABLE OF WHITE BACKGROUND WITH DARK CHARACTERS, BUT I DON'T USE IT
38 BECAUSE ALTHOUGH THE CHARACTERS ARE READABLE, THEY ARE STILL NOT PERFECT
39 AND IT MAKES IT DIFFICULT TO READ. WHILE THE WHITE ON DARK IS NOT AS MUCH
40 A PROBLEM. AS FAR AS USING THE DARK ON WHITE, I HAVE USED IT ON A GOOD CRT
41 AND I HAVE FOUND IT TO BE FAR BETTER WHERE THE APPLICATION FITS (TYPING
42 FROM A WHITE PAPER COPY) IN THIS ASPECT THE WHITE BACKGROUND WITH DARK
43 LETTERS MORE CLOSLY MATCHS THE PAPER FROM WHICH I WAS COPYING WHICH
44 REDUCED THE CONFUSION TIME OF ADAPTING BETWEEN LOOKING AT THE SCREEN AND
45 LOOKING AT THE PAPER. HOWEVER IF I AM NOT COPYING FROM A PEICE OF PAPER,
46 THEN IT REALLY DOESN'T MATTER AS LONG AS THE QUALITY OF THE CRT IS HIGH
47 ENOUGH TO DO THE JOB PROPERLY. (WHICH GIVEN THE QUALITY OF MY CRTS MEANS
48 WHITE CHARS ON BLACK BACKGROUND.. SIGH...)
49 WHILE I AM HERE, I'LL ADD THIS LITTLE ADDITION TO THE PREVIOUS EXCERPT;
50 The geometric design of characters and symbols which is also within the
51 discipline of ergonomics and industrial design, must be clear and unambiguous.
52 The legibility of the characters should not be impaired by geometric
53 distortions. All characters must be completely formed and the descenders of
54 lower case letters must extend below the writing line. The character width
55 of capital letters should amount to about between 50%-70% of the character
56 height. Also, it's important to note that the exclusive use of capital letters
57 is only suitable for brief information and for highlighting. Conversely,
58 heavier eye strain results in the exclusive use of small letters. It is
59 important that the displayed characters must not touch each other.
60
61 In closing, one of the comments I often get when complaining to keyboard
62 manufactures about their poor designs is that a good typist doesn't mind
63 the poor layout... hmmm. I have several comments on that. First, a rather
64 large number of the users are NOT good typists and they need all the help
65 they can get. Second, while a good typists may not complain loudly over
66 every rotten keyboard they come across, I have seen poor designs which
67 very significantly impacted performance. Most noticably the placement
68 of the return key as noted earlier. When you have to break home row
69 position to hit the return key, the keyboard is not properly designed
70 and no amount of excuses or finger pointing can change that.
71 ***** VERBOSLY YOURS CISTOP MIKEY ******* 11:30 AM **** 18 SEPT 83 ********
72 HI! MY NAME IS CKARLIE AND IM NEW ON THES THING
73 PLEASE DROP ME A LINE ON HOW TO USE BWS
74 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
75 MIKEY, YOU'RE SO RIGHT!! A GOOD TYPIST WILL ADAPT TO A LOUSY KEYBOARD, BUT
76 THAT DOESN'T MAKE THE KEYBOARD BETTER. SMALL RETURN KEYS, ODD PLACEMENT,
77 PUTTING CONTROL, INVERSE, BREAK, ESCAPE, AND OTHER SUCH KEYS NEXT TO THE
78 SHIFT, ETC., CAN BE A REAL PROBLEM, AND CAN CAUSE A LOT OF HAIR BEING PULLED
79 OUT OF HEADS. I LOVE THE IBM PC (SO ALL YOU IBMers, PLEASE DON'T TAKE
80 OFFENSE), BUT THE KEYBOARD ON IT IS VERY POORLY DESIGNED, ESPECIALLY FROM A
81 COMPANY THAT BROUGHT US THE SELECTRIC. BUT INDEPENDANT COMPANIES HAVE
82 BROUGHT OUT KEYBOARDS FOR THE IBM THAT ARE SUPERIOR, SO IF IT IS A REAL
83 PROBLEM, A BETTER ONE IS AVAILABLE.
84 AARON..... ARE YOU JUST A TEASE, OR HAVE YOU DISSAPEARED?
85 YOU SAID "CAN WE TALK?", I RESPONDED IN THE AFFIRMATIVE, YOU ASKED FOR A
86 SUBJECT, I GAVE US ONE, AND YOU THEN PROCEEDED TO DISSAPEAR INTO THE
87 TWILIGHT ZONE. HAVE YOU GIVEN UP ON THE INN? CQ, AARON, CQ........
88
89 [][][][][][][][][][][][]PAM.[][][][][][]
90 MIKEY - THAT WAS ME ON THE OTHER DISK BEING TOO POLITE - I FORGOT TO PUT IN
91 MY NAME OR ELSE CONTROL-C'd WHILE STILL AT THE END OF THE LINE - I HAVE NOW
92 ADDED THE NAME. I'M SURE GLAD I WAS BEING TEMPORARILY POLITE (BACK A WHILE
93 WHEN I WAS MUCH LESS POLITE I WAS ALMOST THE ONLY ONE SIGNING ON AFTER A
94 WHILE...) BECAUSE... SEE NEXT MESSAGE.
95 BAD - YOU HAVE GOT ME NAILED SECURELY TO THE WALL. I CHECKED MY PREVIOUS
96 ASSERTION WITH MY WEBSTERS COLLEGIATE DICTIONARY WHICH ASSURED ME THAT
97 GUANO WAS ONLY FROM BIRDS. I HAVE NOW CHECKED AN ENCYCLOPEDIA AND FOUND
98 OUT ABOUT THE GRAND CANYON BAT CAVE, THE MOST SIGNIFICANT DEPOSIT OF GUANO
99 INSIDE THE U.S. ETC ETC. I WOULD LIKE HOWEVER TO POINT OUT THAT THIS ONLY
100 RE-AFFIRMS MY CHOICE OF THE NAME. HAVING BEEN INTIMATELY INVOLVED
101 IN FARMING AND HORTICULTURE AT ONE TIME, I HAVE WORKED QUITE CLOSELY WITH
102 VARIOUS KINDS OF CRAPOLA. I WANTED A PSEUDONYM THAT QUALIFIED AS THE
103 ABSOLUTE NADIR OF THE VARIOUS MANURES, AND AM GLAD TO HAVE YOUR ASSURANCE
104 THAT I HAVE JUST SUCH A ONE.
105 BAD - I SEE YOU WANT TO SET THE LEGAL SYSTEM BACK A FEW THOUSAND YEARS. I
106 WOULD LIKE TO KNOW JUST WHAT THE RATIO OF BLACKS TO WHITES IN PRISON
107 YOU REFERRED TO MEANS TO YOU. I AM SOMEWHAT STUNNED TO HERE OF THIS IN
108 THE SAME BREATH AS AN ARGUMENT FOR PREVENTIVE DETENTION. COULD YOU
109 ELUCIDATE? DO YOU DARE? I ALSO WANT TO KNOW WHAT YOU WANT TO DO ABOUT
110 THE GUY WITH THE WEAPON ON THE STREET - TAKE THE GUN AWAY OR PUT HIM
111 IN JAIL BEFORE HE BUYS A GUN, OR WHAT? YOU'RE BEING QUITE VAGUE - OUT
112 OF NECESSITY, I SUSPECT. I ALSO TAKE ISSUE WITH THE STATEMENT THAT
113 MOST PEOPLE ARE HONEST, IN THE SENSE THAT YOU SEEM TO MEAN IT, WHICH IS
114 THE IMPLICATION THAT MOST PEOPLE DON'T BREAK THE LAW. THAT'S BULLSHIT,
115 AS OUR BELOVED PRESIDENTE HAS POINTED OUT. IN HIS CAMPAIGN REAGAN NOTED
116 THAT WITH 30,000,000 LAWS ON THE BOOKS ALL OF US HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO
117 BREAK DOZENS OF LAWS EACH AND EVERY DAY. HOW ABOUT PUTTING ALL OF US IN
118 PREVENTATIVE DETENTION? AND IF YOU SAY NONE OF THOSE RULES THAT ARE
119 BEING BROKEN ARE SERIOUS, WELL, DO YOU EVER SPEED ON THE FREEWAY. EVER?
120 AND HAVE SPEEDERS EVER KILLED ANYONE? SERIOUS ENOUGH. THERE IS IN
121 FACT A CRISIS IN THE LAW IN THIS COUNTRY. HOWEVER, THE BUNGLING EFFORTS
122 OF JINGOISTS WILL NOT PREVENT INJUSTICE, IT WILL ADD TO IT.
123
124 I NOTICE YOU DIDN'T DENY THAT THESE ARE FAVORITE TACTICS OF TOTALITARIANS
125 SO I GUESS YOU ADMIT THAT. MAYBE YOU DON'T THINK RUSSIA WOULD BE THAT
126 BAD A PLACE TO LIVE? BREATHLESSLY AWAITING YOUR NEXT BRAINLESS
127 CONTRIBUTION.
128
129 TO ALL: HOW COME NOBODY IN A GROUP LIKE THIS IS INTERESTED IN THE SUBJECT
130 OF BETTER COMPUTER INFORMATION UTILITIES, SINCE YOU USE THIS ONE ALL THE TIME
131 I DIDN'T GET ANY RESPONSES AT ALL TO MY LAST QUERY ABOUT A FREE
132 DATABASE AND NO-ONE IS MAD ABOUT THE GOVERNMENT STEALING YOUR TAX
133 DOLLARS TO CREATE DATA BASES THAT THEY TURN OVER TO BIG COMPANIES
134 TO PROFIT FROM WITH NO INVESTMENT OF THEIR OWN. I SPEAK HERE OF
135 LOCKHEED IN PARTICULAR. PERHAPS IT GOT THIS PLUM FOR BEING SUCH A
136 NICE TAME MILITARY CONTRACTOR THAT ALL THE OLD GENERALS RETIRE TO AFTER
137 A LIFETIME OF MISAPPROPRIATING PUBLIC FUNDS. THIS IS A MULTI-BILLION
138 DOLLAR RIPOFF LIABLE TO CONTRIBUTE TO THE DOWNFALL OF OUR ECONOMY IN
139 A SIGNIFICANT WAY AND NOBODY ANSWERS ME ABOUT IT!!!!! SOMEBODY JUST
140 TELL ME IT'S OF NO INTEREST AND I'LL QUIT BRINGING IT UP
141 MIKEY - WANT ME TO GET RUDER OR IS THIS BAD ENOUGH? DON'T KNOW ABOUT THIS -
142 MOST OF THE EASY TARGETS HAVE BEEN PRETTY QUIET LATELY AND I'M
143 KINDA RELUCTANT TO BE TOO RUDE TO ANYONE I'VE HEARD FROM THE LAST FEW
144 DAYS - UNSIGNED,COME BACK!!! WE NEED YOU.
145 ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))BATPOOP, THE MAGNIFICENT+++++++++++++++++
146 }{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{
147 Kaypro may fall because the machine costs too much to build, and there are
148 far, far, far too many dealers who should not be dealers (lots of inventory
149 sitting in guys garages.) I'm told the stock offering fizzled out. Kaypro
150 is NLS, a 30 year old test equipment company. The explosive growth caused
151 by the Kaypro line may be just that, explosive. Nuff said.
152
153 Dearest Batpoop: Just what was it we gave Lockheed? (besides an awful lot
154 of money for equipment, some of which works pretty good.)
155
156 the Phantom Glitch
157 $S$S$S$S$S$S$S$S$S$S$S$S$S$S$S$S$S$S$S$S$S$S$S$S$S$S$S$S$S$S$S$S$S$S$S$S$S$S$S
158 As for the screen issue, I use white-on-black, and am satisfied with it. Having used green on black before, it is equally
159 good. I don't like orange-on-black. As for the inverses, I think they are acceptable, but I'd rather not use them.
160 I believe white-on-black tolerates unfocussedness (is that really a word, or am I just making it up?) better than the
161 reverse.
162 Keyboards: I can get used to anything, but I can't stand going from one keyboard to another daily. Especially when the
163 positions of the commonly-used symbols changes. Keyboard manufacturers must think theirs is the only layout that has,
164 is, or will ever be used, and test accordingly.
165 Movie trivia question: What was the name of the soldier in Dr. Strangelove that was played by actor Keenan Wynn? Some of
166 the recent comments reminded me of this.
167 Is this system getting busier recently; Getting on is a PAIN!
168 Ah yes, Kaypro: The Kaypro has an acceptable-sized screen and nice-sized floppy drives. It may succeed where Osborne has
169 failed. As for Osborne, regardless of what we think of the computer, we owe a lot to it, making the price of computers
170 lower than it used to be.
171
172 What percentage of the users on this system CANNOT read >80 columns?
173 ============**********::::::::::==========::::::::::Anon.==========*********
174 PAM: You might be interested in knowing that I talked to the manufacturer of
175 the IBM keyboard (Keytronics) about a year and a half ago. The result was
176 interesting. First, the key placment was specified by IBM. As was the noisy
177 key clicking. The keycap sizing (all 3/4 inch square) was defined by
178 Keytronics. The reason was the hardware. The low profile switching used
179 does not allow for proper keytravel arangement. As such the keystrike area
180 had to be limited to single wide keys. Thus the reason for all keys the same
181 size. The skerts were provided on certain keys to allow for shifting key
182 positions to be in the desired places. So there you have it, the single
183 wide keys were the result of an engineering fudge, not design.
184 ******* CISTOPP MIKEY ****** 8:26 PM ******* 18 SEPT 83 *****************
185
186 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
187 VERY INTERESTING, MIKEY. I HAVE OFTEN WONDERED HOW A COMPANY THAT COULD
188 MAKE THE SELECTRIC KEYBOARD COULD COME UP WITH THE ONE ON THE PC, WHICH IS
189 ONE OF THE WORST AROUND THAT I HAVE SEEN TO DATE. I ACTUALLY PREFER THE
190 ATARI 800, WHICH IS ALMOST A SELECTRIC CLONE AS FAR AS KEY PLACEMENT AND
191 SIZE. I'M NOT SAYING I PREFER THE ATARI COMPUTER TO THE IBM, JUST THE
192 GENERAL ARRANGEMENT ( THEY COULD HAVE INCLUDED A TEN-KEY PAD THOUGH ).
193 YES, THE CHARACTER IN THAT CLASSIC MOVIE "DR. STRANGELOVE" PLAYED BY
194 KEENAN WYNN WAS COL. BATGUANO. WAS HE THE ORIGIN OF YOUR NAME, BATPOOP?
195
196 [][][][][][][][][][][][]PAM![][][][][][]
197 ALAS, I DIDN'T THINK OF IT FIRST. I DIDN'T KNOW THAT TILL NOW, HOWEVER. I
198 COULD EASILY BE GUITY OF UNCONCIOUS PLAGIARISM, THOUGH, IF THERE IS SUCH A
199 THING. I'VE SEEN THE MOVIE AT LEAST 4 TIMES, MAYBE MORE. MAYBE I SHOULD
200 CHANGE THE NAME NOW THAT IT TURNS OUT NOT TO BE AN ORIGINAL. SUGGESTIONS?
201
202 ONE THING WE GAVE LOCKHEED WAS NATIONAL BUREAU OF STANDARDS DATA BASES.
203 THE NATIONAL B OF S IS AN OLD DEPARTMENT GOVERNMENT RESPONSIBLE FOR A
204 SURPRISING AMOUNT OF BASIC RESEARCH. THEY DO MANY THINGS LIKE FINDING
205 MELTING POINTS OF SUBSTANCES, HEATS OF SOLUTION FOR SALTS, ATOMIC CLOCKS,
206 AND ALSO A GOOD DEAL OF RESEARCH THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH STANDARDS
207 AND TABLES OF DATA. THEY HAVE DATA BASES IN SEVERAL HUNDRED FIELDS. NOW
208 HAVING PAID FOR THIS ALREADY IT WOULD BE NICE IF I COULD DIAL IT UP ON
209 MY COMPUTER FOR A REASONABLE FEE. THERE ARE MILLIONS OF STUDENTS,
210 PRIVATE RESEARCHERS, SMALL BUSINESSES, FARMERS, ETC WHO COULD REALLY USE
211 THIS STUFF. WE COULD REALLY USE SOME COMPETITION IN MORE FIELDS THAN
212 JUST COMPUTERS (AMONG THE HIGH TECH FIELDS). I KNOW THERE ARE SOME OTHERS,
213 BUT YOU KNOW THEY ARE FAR BETWEEN. BUT ASIDE FROM HAVING 'GOOD' REASONS TO
214 WANT THE DATA, WE ALREADY PAID FOR IT !!!!
215
216 A LOT OF OTHER GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS ARE PARTICIPATING IN THIS SCAM. I SAY
217 THAT HAVING THE BASIC RESEARCH DATA THAT IS AT THE HEART OF OUR PROSPECTS
218 FOR THE FUTURE RIPPED OFF IN THIS MANNER IS BOUND TO SERIOUSLY AFFECT
219 OUR ECONOMY. SONY, SIEMANS A.G. OR THE SOVIET EMBASSY CAN GET THIS INFO
220 EASIER THAN A SMALL BUSINESSMAN (THAT IS, THEY CAN AFFORD IT). AND THE
221 SMALL BUSINESS PERSON IS THE ONE WHO CREATES ALL THE GROWTH AND NEW JOBS,
222 NOT THE LARGE CORPORATIONS, WHO ACTUALLY ELIMINATE JOBS ( ALONG WITH
223 CREATIVITY AND SOME OTHER THINGS WE CAN GO INTO LATER ). AND THE WORST
224 THING ABOUT IT IS THAT THESE DEALS ARE PUBLISHED OPENLY, LIKE IN
225 COMPUTERWORLD, AND NO-ONE SEES ANYTHING WRONG WITH IT AT ALL EXCEPT
226 MAYBE A FEW HUNDRED THOUSAND PEOPLE WHO ARE TRYING TO DO INDEPENDENT WORK
227 IN HIGH TECH OUTSIDE THE BIG CORPORATIONS AND GOVERNMENT. THIS IS AN
228 EXTENSION OF A BIGGER IS BETTER PHILOSOPHY IN R&D THAT HAS SEEN THE
229 DROP IN PATENT ISSUANCE IN RECENT YEARS TO HALF OF FORMER LEVELS. AND
230 MANY OF THE PATENTS GRANTED NOW IN THE U.S. ARE JUST PATENTS BEING
231 GRANTED FOR FOREIGN COMPANIES FOR WORK DONE ELSEWHERE.
232 ))))))))))))))))))))BATPOOP, OF THE UNCERTAIN DERIVATION+++++++++++++++++++++
233 Again, the idea of prior restraint in our penal institutions is not new,
234 in fact the most common reason given for punishment is deterrence. We have
235 many laws whose only purpose is to prevent crimes, but we have no coherent
236 crime prevention system. In fact, since our prisons have not proven to have
237 much if any rehabilitation value, their only use is deterence. Some crimes
238 are effectively planning another crime (conspiracy, for example, or what is
239 called assault, since that is not battery but threat) it is legally correct
240 to nab someone for planning certain crimes. like overthrowing the government
241 Admittedly we can't read minds, so we can't get at much planned crime, but
242 by removing repeaters from circulation we can reduce crime. Much research
243 has been done on the psychology of crime, so using this we can get some
244 indication if a suspect is likely to commit crimes; the use of so-called
245 experts is meaningless, since their record has been much worse than the
246 estimates of the police. simple statistics on crimes should be sufficient.
247 Most of us do admittedly commit crimes, but inadvertenly (who can know all
248 the laws?), and intentionally (if you obeyed the speed limit on the freeway
249 you would be risking more than a ticket) but laws are a part of social
250 behavior so inappropriate laws are ignored. Simply making the laws
251 enforceable would help, such as the European method of making the owner of a
252 car responsible for it's use. (They put automatic speed detectors with
253 cameras where they can spot speeders, and you are held responsible for s
254 your car's driver speeding) In order to get a license to drive we take a
255 test of our basic knowlege of some traffic laws and our ability to operate
256 a car. As it is well known that most "accidents" are caused by the same few
257 drivers, and that these few show distinct psychological aberrations, and
258 also kill people, I think it quite correct to require some sort of
259 standardized test for this also (it could be part of the driving test, as
260 one of the traits is tailgating). The idea that premeditated murder is worse
261 than a crime of passion is totally wacko; it means don't think about the
262 effects of your actions, that could get you in jail.
263 On free databases: who will pay for it? The cost of the data is one thing,
264 but the cost of accessing it is another. Compuserve is cheap in the evenings
265 because it is paid for during the day, by business users. If we could get
266 dialog to do the same, then we must pay for the phone lines (or eqivalent)
267 to access it, still expensive but more practical. The almost total lack
268 of competit1on in this field may say something about how easy it is to get
269 into. One databas1 I would like to see, though, is our laws. Lawyers have
270 access to several databases on this, as well as the court's interpretations,
271 and since we must abide by laws as the courts read them, we should be able
272 to know what this is. I don't think a lawyer should be needed to tell us
273 what is legal. Of course the lawyers won't like us poking around in their
274 private preserve, especially when we could see how badly they handle it.
275 Enough///////////////////////////BAD\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
276 As to keyboards, how about one quick wish? Make them easily redefinable by
277 he user. Put LCD displays on the keys so you could see what you did to them,
278 and when you log on the computer would set up the keyboard to match your
279 logon file. If you like dvor-what's-his-name you got it; it would even allow
280 QWERTY.
281 /////////////////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
282 DOM: I don't mean some my comments regarding 0/0 to be SERIOUS.
283 However your slope example is what first made me realize that n/0
284 & 0/0 could have meanings other than "undefined". Note: I didn't
285 say they were PRACTICAL meanings, just meanings. Obviously, the
286 vertical line has infinite slope - thus n/0 = "infinity". Now
287 consider the set of real numbers n as being the set of solutions
288 of equations of the form n=y/x. ALL of the lines pass thru (0,0).
289 This lack of a single (or even of any FINITE number of) answer is
290 why 0/0 is undefined. n/0 is undefined because of all the fun
291 things that occur in the mathematics of transfinites. Aleph null
292 (sorry my terminal only supports greek & kata kana, NOT hebrew!)
293 +n = aleph null. Replace the "+" with any other operation and you
294 won't have to change the answer! This could get VERY inconvenient
295 in a bookkeeping program.
296 I think that most floating point representations have
297 a few "illegal" or ignored bit patterns that could be used to code
298 for some of these strange answers (as an example, I believe that
299 in most Microsoft BASICs a zero exponent means the number is 0!
300 Since the mantissa isn't being checked, what if we did & if it
301 was 0 then ok then answer is 0, otherwise it is .....)
302 Most of my examples (of /0 & 0/0) are things where I
303 was kind of suprised to find out that the "real world" & the
304 formulas would still give answers under the "undefined" conditions.
305 I admit that the answers aren't very USEFUL, but my "interpretation"
306 of the undefined conditions, sometimes will tell you what to expect.
307 I think this is "better" than "you can't DO that", if only
308 because it lets you understand why "you SHOULDN'T do that".
309 Since you appear to have a fair knowledge of math, maybe
310 you can answer a couple of questions for me? My math (College
311 Algebra ie Math 101, Logic, & a little Boolean Algebra, pre-Calc
312 etc) isn't quite up to these.
313 1. What is the square root of "i" (ie SQR(SQR(-1)) )?
314 2. How did they determine that i^i=e^(-.5*pi)
315 (the above values both work out to a small real number that
316 I'm too lazy to look up in the CRC tables)
317 For #1 my main question is: is the result a member of the set of
318 complex numbers, or do we need "hyper-complex" numbers? On #2
319 I suspect that the answer is VERY involved, so I would understand
320 if you referred me to a book (hopefully, something I can understand
321 if not, I may ask for an explanation of the explanation!)
322
323 To: ANYBODY
324 Is it possible to take math classes (& maybe a few physics
325 & chem classes) at any of the universities or colleges around
326 Portland, WITHOUT working toward a degree or having to take
327 "irrelevant" classes as prerequisites at some point? I would
328 be taking only 1 or 2 classes a term, & only to LEARN. Thus, I
329 don't want to be told: I'm sorry, you can't take CS 207 unless
330 you have taken Eng 105 and ..... I can see why they do this
331 if you are going for a degree, but..
332
333 To:BATPOOP
334 "if the Foo shits, wear it"
335 _____________________________Leonard__________________________
336 ****************
337 In regards to the issue of putting criminals in jail before they commit crimes;
338 there are a couple of criminal offenses that apply: Attempt and Conspiracy.
339 Both require that a substancial step be taken towards the commission of the
340 crime. Conspiracy also requires that more than one person be involved. The
341 attempt charge is usually used as a plea bargining tool as the penalty is less
342 than the actual crime itself. Conspiracy is rarely used as it is extremely
343 difficult to prove, people don't plan criminal acts in public. If you want to
344 go further than that, then you'll have to overcome one obstacle--the US Comstitution.
345 It may be outdated and vague in places, but it's all we've got at the moment.
346 I'd be loathe to give it up unless I see something better.
347 As for testing driver's to see whether they have the right attitude before they
348 are given a license...FAT CHANCE! How many driver's are on the road with their
349 licenses suspended for bad driving records, drunk driving, manslaughter, etc.?
350 Just because the state has told someone that they can't drive because they aren't
351 a good driver, doesn't mean they won't drive...They could care less. The penalties
352 are very stiff in this state for Driving While Suspended: A Misdemeanor in some
353 cases and a C Felony if your license is suspended for drunk driving or some other
354 major traffic crime...The real problem as I see it is that many judges refuse
355 to lock up offenders so they won't hurt someone else; and the judges that would
356 like to can't because the jails are too full. Another solution is needed, I
357 just haven't figured out what it is...
358 Michael
359 *******************
360
361 NO, THE ABOVE IS NOT ME. PLEASE REMEMBER THAT I SIGN AS SHOWN HERE:
362 ******** CISTOP MIKEY ****** 19 SEPT 83 ****** 2:30PM ******************
363 |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
364 TO LEONARD...
365 As per your question about taking classes at local schools without going towards a degree...
366 I have taken classes at PSU and at Mt. Hood CC. Both schools, especially PSU, require,
367 for some classes, prerequisites to get it. They have to do this because of the limited number
368 of sections of a given class. Students in a certain degree program must be giuven the priority
369 to get into classes that they need to satisfy their degree requirements. In most of the cases
370 I have seen, if there is room left in a class, they will let you in. They don't keep people out because they are mean, its
371 just the fact that they don't have the money to staff more teachers and have more sections.
372 I won't start that debate up again, but I know where you are coming from. It is fun, or would be fun, to take
373 classes just to learn, instead of always having to worry about the fact that this class isn't in the program, or
374 I have to have taken basket weaving 102 before I can get into basket weaving 200. There are alot of neat classes you can take
375 just for 'fun' at both schools. Check out MHCC night classes and PSU's Departmment of continuing Education, or DCE for short.
376 They both offer the type of things you are looking for. I have not mentioned PCC, but
377 I imagine they have some sort of extension classes or similar offerings. I wish you
378 luck in your endevors! I have learned a lot in school, and I have been very happy with
379 my professors at both PSU and MHCC. Have fun...and remember, school starts up at both PSU and MHCC September 26th. In case
380 you don't know who this is, I'll just sign my name as the 'Null' man...
381
382 //////////////////////
383 Someone above wanted to know what sqrt (i) is. Dredging up some answers
384 from the depths of my brain, I get: (1+i)/(sqrt 2). I think. It has been a long
385 time since calculus, etc. As for the second question, I GIVE UP! Imaginary
386 exponents give me the willies.
387 ------------------------------------------------P. V. Jeltz--------------------
388
389 10 i am trying to figure this out
390 501 you should be more explicite on how to write a message on this system scott huotari
391 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 19 Sep 83 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
392 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 21:21 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
393 When a voice calls and is not heard, it is as if a cold fog blows
394 into the Inn and transforms it...the roar of voices tangled in conversation
395 changes to a tinnily-distant sound, a sound as inviting as a the din of
396 televisions on display in a department store...and to the eyes of the
397 girl in the corner, the Inn becomes a grey and empty room, and only the
398 dust shimmers from the exhalation of the one thus abandoned.
399 Broken Heart, ever you read me wrong! Tell me your true name, and
400 let us speak of more than mournful dirges over what is lost.
401 A humble thanks to those who defended my offerings to the Backwater
402 Inn, many days ago: I wish that I had been able to convey the delight
403 that I felt when I briefly glimpsed the rallying of my friends against
404 the stranger who took an unfriendly swing at me...and these words seem
405 quite inadequate to express the smile that danced on my face that day--!
406 I, as a would-be artist, can find some fulfillment in just expressing
407 myself succintly, but the *joy* of writing comes from the inadvertantly-
408 earned appreciation and respect that is expressed by others.
409 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> d <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
410 DEAR BAD - WHAT ABOUT THE RATIOS OF BLACKS - DO YOU GIVE UP - GUESS YOU
411 DON'T HAVE THE GUTS TO CONFRONT US WITH WHAT YOU REALLY MEAN - OR TO
412 SAY YOU WERE WRONG ABOUT SOMETHING - AND HOW ABOUT THE ISSUE OF TOTALITA-
413 RIANISM - CAN'T GET A PEEP OUT OF YOU ON THESE CAN I. I SEE YOU STILL
414 WANT TO CLAIM SOME SHRED OF RESPECTABILITY FOR YOUR IMPOVERISHED ANTI-
415 SOCIAL ATTITUDES, THOUGH. THIS IS AN ANONYMOUS FORUM, THOUGH. WHY DON'T
416 YOU GO AHEAD AND SAY WHATEVERS ON YOUR MIND. THIS LAST MISSIVE OF YOURS
417 IS HELD TOGETHER WITH HOG GREASE. ALMOST EVERY SENTENCE CONTAINS SOME
418 FLAW OF THOUGHT, SO IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO NOTE THEM ALL WITHOUT TAKING UP
419 THE REST OF THIS DISK, BUT HOW ABOUT THIS:
420
421 IN SENTENCE ONE YOU CONFUSE THE IDEAS OF PRIOR RESTRAINT AND DETERRENCE THROUGH
422 PUNISHMENT. THESE ARE NOT THE SAME.
423 IN SENTENCE TWO, YOU NOTE THAT WE HAVE MANY LAWS WHOSE ONLY PURPOSE IS TO
424 PREVENT CRIMES.... ETC. WELL, ALL LAWS ARE DESIGNED TO PREVENT UNDESIRABLE
425 ACTS, NOTE *ACTS*. THE FACT THAT THERE IS A LAW IS WHAT DEFINES WHAT IS A
426 CRIME. WHAT YOU ARE GETTING AT IS THAT THERE IS A MUCH DISPUTED AREA OF
427 LAW INVOLVING CONSPIRACY. THIS AREA IS CONTROVERSIAL ENOUGH AS FAR AS IT
428 HAS GONE - IT MAKES A BAD FOUNDATION FOR THE IDEA THAT PEOPLE SHOULD BE
429 LOCKED UP FOR THEIR BAD INTENTIONS, PREDELICTIONS, OR FANTASIES.
430
431 THE MAIN SUBSTANCE OF YOUR ARGUMENT SEEMS TO REST ON TWO IDEAS:
432 A: THAT WE CURRENTLY ARE ABLE TO PREDICT IMMINANT CRIMINAL BEHAVIOUR, AND
433 THAT THERE ARE CRIMINAL EXPERTS THAT CAN DO THIS WITH RELIABILITY -
434 THIS IS JUST NOT SO FOR MOST CRIMES. RECENTLY A MAN IN A PSYCHIATRIC
435 HOSPITAL WITH A CRIMINAL RECORD WAS SENT HOME BY HIS DOCTOR, A
436 PROFESSIONAL EXPERIENCED WITH CRIMINAL PSYCHOTICS. HE KILLED HIS
437 WIFE AND CHILDREN BEFORE KILLING HIMSELF. ANY PERSON IN THIS FIELD
438 WILL TELL YOU THAT MURDER CAN NOT BE PREDICTED ON A PSYCHOLOGICAL
439 BASIS.
440 B: THAT WHOEVER IS RUNNING THE GOVERNMENT WILL BE IN PERFECT AGREEMENT
441 WITH YOU ABOUT WHAT INFRACTIONS ARE SERIOUS AND WHICH ARE NOT. HOW
442 PERFECTLY GOOFY AN IDEA! IF SOMEBODY DIDN'T WANT TO PUNISH YOU FOR
443 THE CRIMINAL ACTIVITY OF YOURS THAT YOU CONSIDER NOT SERIOUS, PUNISHING
444 ONLY OTHER PEOPLE FOR THEIR 'REAL' CRIMES, THOSE LAWS WOULDN'T BE ON
445 THE BOOKS. THE FACILE WAY YOU HAVE OF EXCUSING LIFE ENDANGERING
446 SPEEDING ON THE FREEWAY IS QUITE LIKE THE SORT OF EXCUSES OTHER
447 CRIMINALS PRESENT FOR THEIR CRIMES. THEY SIMPLY SAY THAT IT DOESN'T
448 REALLY MATTER, FOR ONE REASON OR ANOTHER. THE FACT IS YOU NEVER KNOW
449 WHAT THE BALLOON HEADS WHO RUN MOST GOVERNMENTS ARE GOING TO COME UP
450 WITH IF YOU DISMISS THE BILL OF RIGHTS - WHICH IS WHAT YOU ARE TRYING
451 TO DO, THOUGH I SUSPECT YOU HAVEN'T READ IT LATELY.
452
453 MOST OF YOUR METHODOLOGY FOR CATCHING THESE OFFENDERS-TO-BE BEFORE THE ACT
454 HAS TO DO WITH ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT CLASSES OF PEOPLE - BUT WE WILL, IN YOUR
455 SCENARIO, BE LOCKING UP INDIVIDUALS. FURTHER, YOU STATE THAT PRISONS DO
456 NOT WORK FOR ACTUAL OFFENDERS. HOW THEN CAN THEY DO SOME GOOD FOR POTENTIAL
457 OFFENDERS. WHAT WOULD BE THE OUTCOME IF I LOCKED YOU UP NOW FOR INTENDING
458 TO SPEED? HOW LONG SHOULD I KEEP YOU? OR SHOULD I SHOOT YOU, OR PERHAPS
459 LOBOTOMISE YOU? SPEEDERS AND DRUNK DRIVERS KILL ABOUT AS MANY PEOPLE A
460 YEAR IN THIS COUNTRY AS MURDERERS DO. SO IT'S JUST AS SERIOUS. HAVING
461 WORKED IN HOSPITAL E.R.'S A BIT, I CAN TELL YOU THAT THE OUTCOMES ARE
462 QUITE SIMILAR. MAYBE YOU SHOULD THINK BEFORE YOU LET US DO WHATEVER WE
463 WANT TO YOU.
464
465 I THINK THAT BEFORE YOU WRITE OFF THE PRISON SYSTEM, YOU OUGHT TO MEDITATE
466 ON THE FACT THAT WHEN A JUDGE HERE RECENTLY FORCED THE STATE TO RELEASE
467 A LARGE PERCENT OF STATE INMATES, THE CRIME RATE JUMPED 75% THE NEXT MONTH.
468 IT IS NOT THAT PUNISHMENT AS WE CURRENTLY PRACTICE IT DOESN'T WORK - IT
469 IS THAT WE DON'T PRACTICE IT ENOUGH. WE LET PEOPLE OFF WITH LIGHT SENTENCES
470 WHO ARE MULTIPLE OFFENDERS BECAUSE OF LACK OF PRISON SPACE. MOST OF OUR PRISONS
471 WERE BUILT WHEN THE POPULATION WAS A FRACTION OF WHAT IT IS TODAY. AND
472 DETERRENCE HAS TWO ASPECTS - CONVINCING PEOPLE TO STAY HONEST IS ONE, BUT
473 THE OTHER IS PUTTING CRIMINALS WHERE THEY CAN'T GET TO THE REST OF US. IT
474 IS POSSIBLE TO HAVE MOST REPEAT CRIMINALS UNDER LOCK AND KEY, BUT WE DON'T
475 DO IT.
476
477 SO: LETS LOCK CRIMINALS UP, FOR SURE. AFTER THEY ARE CONVICTED. AND LETS
478 BE WILLING TO PAY THE TAXES THAT THIS ENTAILS. WHILE THIS IS GOING ON,
479 LETS NOT GIVE THE GOVERNMENT ANY EXCUSES TO LOCK US UP ON SUSPICION,
480 OR ANYBODY WHO SAYS 'THE KING IS A FINK' WILL BE IN THE HOOSEGOW FOR
481 GOOD, OR WORSE. UNLESS, OF COURSE, YOU TRUST ALL POLITICIANS AND
482 COPS AND LAWYERS TO BE BETTER THAN OTHER HUMAN BEINGS, ALL THE TIME.
483 ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))COLONEL BATGUANO++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
486
487 ****************
488 Mikey: Sorry, I didn't mean to give the impression the above message about
489 criminals was yours, that just happens to be my name.
490 As for the crime/criminals issue; criminologists have come up with four basic
491 reasons for locking people up:
492 1. Punishment - All this does is make the victims feel a little better and
493 satisfy our sense of morality.
494 2. Deterrance - The threat of prison rarely deters the hardcore crook. He knows
495 that he's not going to spend the full time in the joint anyway with early release
496 probation and parole. Also many repeat offenders become institutionalized to the
497 point that they want to get back into prison as soon as possible.
498 3. Rehabilitation - studies have shown that rehabilitation has little if any
499 effect on whether or not an individual will become a repeat offender. In fact,
500 the only thing that seems to have a bearing is the age of the individual. The
501 older one becomes, the less likely he is to become a repeat offender.
502 4. Locking up the crook to keep him of the streets - As Bat pointed out this is
503 the only real effect on the crime rate. If the crook isn't out on the street
504 he won't be victimizing someone. And as he gets older his chances of repeated
505 offenses decreases.
506 So, I guess the only way to really reduce the crime rate is to make sure crooks
507 spend their full time in jail. Halfway houses, probation, parole, job training, etc.,
508 really don't help that much. That sounds hard-nosed, but short of lobotomies
509 or a return to capital punishment for stealing a loaf of bread, it's the only
510 viable alternative that I can see.
511 Michael
512 *****************
513
514 Michael, no problem, it is only that your name being the same as mine and
515 the boarder you use gave rise to a few users thinking that you were me. Which
516 is natural enough considering all the simularities. Ah well...
517 ****** CISTOP MIKEY ****** 20 SEPT 83 ******* 8:27 AM *********************
518 **********************************************************************
519 As the Innkeeper returns from a long nights outing he finds a whisper
520 still echoing thru the Inn. Come do not leave without speaking with
521 the other patrons, for many have asked of you. Most notibly PAM and
522 Aaron. Your voice is always most welcome here for it brings happiness
523 and joy to the patrons of this fair Inn. Come and sit with these fair
524 people and chat for a while most gracious Lady of Dragons.
525 ******** CISTOP MIKEY ******* 8:38AM ******* 20 SEPT 83 **************
526
527 TO: BATDODO
528 WELL, I WOULD SAY IF THAT DOESN'T GET SOMEONE MAD AT YOU, I DON'T KNOW
529 WHAT WILL!
530 BY THE WAY, IF ANYONE IS INTERESTED, EVEN THE SCIENTIST HAVE THEIR OWN
531 IDEAS ABOUT CRIMINALS AND HOW TO DETECT AND STOP THEM. IT HAS TO DO WITH
532 LOOKING FOR TRACE METALS IN THE HAIR. IT SEEMS THAT THOSE WHO COMMIT
533 ACTS OF AGRESSION EITHER HAVE AN EXCESS OR LACK OF CERTAIN METALS IN
534 THEIR BODIES AS DETERMINED BY LOOKING AT HAIR SAMPLES. WHILE THOSE THAT
535 DON'T COMMIT ACTS OF AGRESSION HAVE A NORMAL AMOUNT OF THESE METALS.
536 SCIENCE NEWS 8/20/83 PG 122 AND 9/10/83 PG 173. NOW THERE IS A INTERESTING
537 AND SICKENING THOUGHT. YOU GOT TO MUCH COBALT IN YOU, SO WE ARE LOCKING
538 YOU UP AND THROWING AWAY THE KEY. WORSE YET, THERE IS TALK OF TESTING
539 CHILDREN TO SEE IF THEY QUALIFY. WONDERFUL, JUST THE SORT OF THING TO
540 TELL THEM, "YOUR GOING TO LEAD A LIFE OF CRIME". OF COURSE ALL THIS IS
541 GREAT FOR THE PEOPLE COMMITING THE ACTS OF VIOLENCE, "SEE, IT'S NOT MY
542 FAULT, THE METAL MADE ME DO IT!" YEAH, RIGHT... FLIP WILSON YOU AIN'T.
543 ******* CISTOP MIKEY VERY SCEPTICAL ******* 20 SEPT 83 *******************
544 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 21 Sep 83 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
545 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 21:19 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
546 Of what would you have me speak, dear Innkeeper? I hesitate to leap
547 into the conversations flying past, for many that start in a bantering
548 tone seem to run amok, and become 'slash ego' contests.
549 My visits have been infrequent because of the long path of darkness
550 that awaits me once I leave these lands, and thus I may have missed some
551 responses--? Tell me, please, O Innkeeper, of these voices that called
552 my name, for I did not hear; and I am eager to reply!
553 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> d <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
554 ******************************************************
555 Ah dear lady, the ones of note are the faithfull Aaron who has called
556 your name serveral times and found no answer. PAM as well a most
557 sesioned traveler has expressed loss at no longer hearing the words
558 that pass thru your fingers.
559 And, sigh.. Even I do miss your thoughts and words as they flow thru
560 this Inn crowded though it is at times like these.
561 But hark! Do you not see that it changes yet again? For the night of
562 the egos is closing fast. Perhaps a new decore can be added to the Inn.
563 ****** CISTOP MIKEY ****** 22 SEPT 83 ******** 9:34PM ***************