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1 If you are in need of help, you need but ask....
2 ************************ REMOVED: 24 AUG 83 ***************************
3 Welcome to BWMS (BackWater Message System) Mike Day System operator
4 ************************************************************
5 GENERAL DISCLAIMER: BWMS IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INFORMATION PLACED ON
6 THIS SYSTEM.
7 BWMS was created as an electronic bill board. BWMS is a privatly owned
8 and operated system which is currently open for use by the general public.
9 No restrictions are placed on the use of the system.
10 It is intended that the system be normally used for messages and
11 advertisments by the users. As the system is privatly owned, I retain the
12 right to remove any and all messages which I may find offensive
13 to me. Additionally because of the limited size of the system, it will be
14 periodically purged of older messages. (only 629 lines of data can be saved)
15 The saved information will be cycled to drive 'B' while the information on
16 drive 'B' will be archived, and a fresh disk will be installed in drive 'A'.
17 To leave a message, type 'ENTER' and use ctrl/C or break to get out
18 of the enter mode. The message is automaticly stored.
19 If after entering the message you find you made a mistake,
20 use the replace command to replace the line.
21 To exit from the system, type 'OFF' then hang up.
22 Type 'HELP' to see other commands that are available on the system.
23 ========================================
24
25 -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-
26 | Hey, a fresh disk! But what's the matter with drive B, Mikey? Whenever I |
27 | switch over to drive B and try to execute a command, it hangs up on me! |
28 | Oh well.............................................................Pioneer |
29 _-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_
30 Yeah mikey, it doesn't work..... That really is a pain in the
31 *"#%"#)%"#$%)!<"#*'?$"!')#+ $("!)&> ("#$!)(&"' %*)&("#!)""#!%$ (&
32 #"%!$)'("%!( )%#"()&'%"! &*#%!) (%$"!( )%"!) (#%!* (#!% &()(# *
33 "#%!( '&"!#( )"!#) ( *%={body}lt;"*#+%$() <"#*%$("!#%$!"#%{body}amp;()" *#$
34 What's going on? Did someone remove the disk or keep the door
35 open?
36
37
38 TRON
39
40 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Yes, it is really frustrating! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
41 ANOTHER VOICE HEARD FROM "N U T S" WHERE IS DRIVE B?????????
42 Wake up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
43 I know you're out there..... I can hear you breathing.....
44 $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
45
46
47 WHAT'S THIS? IT SEEMS AS THO THESE PEOPLE THINK THERE IS SOME SORT OF PROPBLEM!
48
49 DO YOU THINK IT COULD BE TRUE? COULD BWMS BE HAVING SOME SORT OF HARDWARE FAILU
50 IF SO WE COULD BE IN REAL TROUBLE.
51 TUNE IN NEXT WEEK .................
52
53 FOR THE RESULTS IN "THE DEATH OF BWMS?"
54
55
56 $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
57
58 FM: CISTOP MIKEY RE: DRIVE B (OPPS)
59
60 YES, I CHANGED DISKS THIS MORNING, AND I BET I FORGOT TO CLOSE THE DORR
61 ON DRIVE B WHEN I CHANGED IT. IT WILL BE BACK ON LINE WHEN I GET HOME
62 TONIGHT (PROBABLY SOMEWHERE'S BETWEEN 9:00PM AND 1:00AM PLUS OR MINUS
63 24 HRS.)
64 ***** CISTOP MIKEY (BLUSH..) ****** 3:47PM *** 18 AUG 83 **********
65
66 }[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
67 GLYME'S FORMULA FOR SUCCESS
68 The secret of success is sincereity.
69 Once you can fake that
70 you've got it made.
71
72 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
73 who's Glyme?
74
75 ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
76 Glyme must have been a sociologist who later went into politics.
77 ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
78 //////
79 Who's complaining about finding out how much more we need to spend on health
80 for people in poor health? Actually, this is important, it determines what
81 we should spend our now rather short dollars on. If poor health doesn't cost
82 us money, why bother changing it? Besides, it is easier to get money for
83 something you know about. I'm surprised it's only 7 times more.
84 I was looking at some graphs of crimes against time, and noticed some
85 odd things: suicides, murders, illegimate births, and rape all followed the
86 same general curve: down from about 1914 through about 1940, generally, then
87 up. There were sudden jumps in 1921,29,44,55-60,63-67; sudden drops in1923,
88 33-43,61,68,76 or so. I understand the drop during WW2, and the jump in 29,
89 but the interesting thing was they all followed the same general curve, with
90 the jumps and wiggles in the same place. Looks like a common cause for all,
91 maybe? Based on this, the suggestion to treat rapists with hormones to
92 reduce their sex drive is misplaced, if rape is related to violence not sex
93 drive. (It sure works on cats, though. One shot of Depo-provira will take
94 the Tom out of a cat. It works best on newly neutered cats, though.
95 ///////////////////////BAD\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
96
97 BAD: what does the chart show for the current time period? From say 77-82?
98 I wonder if the rape/crime rate has increased or decreased in recent years
99 with relation to the world population.
100 If so, will it continue to rise or will it fall with the introduction of
101 computers into the society...or even if there is a correlation between them.
102
103 This could be an interesting conversation....
104
105
106 The Sysm....
107
108 ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
109 Regarding the employer vs employee bit on drive b, I have a question
110 Do you really think either can get along without the other?
111 I fail to understand why we seem to be conditioned to think
112 of this (and Labor/Management) as an ADVERSARY relationship. I
113 know people who don't see why a corporation needs 5% (or 10, 15
114 whatever) profit, yet they complain that they can't get more
115 than 5.5% interest on their bank account. There are other equally
116 silly (stupid?) attitudes but this is easier to poke holes in
117 than some of the others.
118
119 PAM: Good idea, I suspect that a biochemical trigger could
120 be arranged. Trouble is, unless you want a "fixed" cycle (more
121 about THAT later) you will have to "learn" to ovulate! Don't
122 worry about shocking us with "orgasm", THAT word can be found
123 even in the newspapers. But if we use the "masked" genes to get
124 the "ape" estrus pattern, you MIGHT lose your orgasms! It seems
125 that as far as they can tell FEMALE APES DON'T HAVE THEM (ouch!!).
126 Unless you are "abnormal", you DO have "fixed" cycle already. Or
127 at least as fixed as can be expected of such a complex biochemical
128 setup. Maybe it'd just be easier to have some part of the body
129 (the outer portions of the genitals, perhaps?) change color while
130 you are receptive. This could be keyed to some of the chemicals
131 already manufactured in the body. If they can tell whether or not
132 you are receptive with a blood test (I think they can, anybody
133 know for sure?) then this would be a "trivial" modification.
134 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
135 Hey, I bet we could design an implantable sensor to do the same
136 thing RIGHT NOW! Anybody have any suggestions on design or placement
137 of such a device? (yes, I know. I've just extended the discussion
138 to "bionics")
139
140 On the tax credit bit, I think that a SMALL percentage of the
141 teacher's salary, building maintenance, etc could be credited.
142 After all, if you look at it another way: if ALL the kids in private
143 schools went to public schools, how many more teachers, school
144 buildings & so forth would be required? Now - divide the cost
145 of THAT among the parents of those children. THAT is closer to
146 the correct figure (probably a bit high, but $30 is a bit low!)
147
148 I would be interested in comments on this "figure". Please, use
149 my technique- don't attack, just suggest a different alternative!
150 ____________________________Leonard____________________________
151 Leonard:
152 I think your appoach to the 'problem' is probably the most intellegent
153 one I've seen to date. A minimum amount of emotional hype, and a well
154 thought out consideration instead of the knee-jerk emotional responses
155 I've seen so far. I applaud you on your attitude to the debate.
156 ***** CISTOP MIKEY (I THOUGHT I WAS STAYING OUT OF THIS!) *****************
157 Aaargh I have negative 30 seconds to write this in! Mikey, oh Mikey, you
158 know my voice...tell me quickly whether your friend has had success in his
159 job search, and if he has contacted my new company. I might flit past this
160 place Monday, or this weekend if I find some free time to jaunt to Tigard...
161 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
165 Hi there, Lady of your word. 236-xxxx...remember? Or is the
166 second shoe to dangle interminally?
167 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 8-19 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
168 **************************************************************
169 What melodious voice do I hear calling thru the door of the Inn?
170 The keeper doth exclaim err she drove out of sight. Yes to both
171 queries. While he did inquire of the company in question, he is
172 now working for a different one called Microcosom. He is very
173 happy, not only is the job enjoyable and the people friendly,
174 he is making 50% more then at his old job! I thank you kindly
175 for your concern and help for him.
176 ******** CISTOP MIKEY ******** 19 AUG 83 ****** 10:44PM *******
177 ==========================================================================
178 in three weeks (9-12-83) 7 puppies will be ready to venture off on their
179 own with a new master of course. 5 of them are black with occassional
180 white stripes down some faces and others have brown paws, all are
181 female. 2 of them are beige ,one of which is a female and finally 1 male.
182 in four weeks our second batch of puppies will be ready . these are mostly
183 brown with a few light brown tummies, a couple of white toes and ears that
184 will stand up in the future. there are only 6 of these! one male though.
185 lab is dominate in all, especially the first group. if interested call
186 658-xxxx. these are not for eating!!!! they'll make good watch dogs.
187 ----------
188 Doesn't the above letter resemble My Dead Dog Rover in any way?
189 ----------
190 I think the question was "How much is saved by not having 1 child in the
191 classroom, to which the answer is not much. If all or many left, that is a
192 diferent story, but not all would or could.
193 As to the curve of crimes, etc: it is going up now, at a steadily rising rate.
194 It doesn't seem to relate directly to population, which was not going down
195 prior to WW2, or to computers, either. Anyone with the correct reason knows
196 a lot more about what makes people tick than any expert. (or is damn lucky.)
197 My guess is economic and social pressures on weak personalities, what's yours???
198 ////////////////////////////////////BAD\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
199 PUPPIES? WOULD YOU CARE TO TRADE FOR A KITTEN? WE GOT LOTS HERE...
200 ......................................................................
201 Unfortunately, Leonard (and a few others) you don't seem to understand
202 the difference between a MARGINAL cost and an AVERAGE cost. (not just school,
203 but any product/service/etc. I will explain
204 Imagine there is a need for 1000 widgets. The machine which must be
205 built to make them costs $100,000. Once the machine is built, you can make
206 a widget for $1.00. in materials/labor. So if you make 1000, it will cost
207 the manufacturer $101,000. He must sell them at $101.00 just to break even.
208 Along comes some wise guy. He says, 'hey, it only costs you an
209 extra $1.00 to make a widget. Why don't you sell it to me for $2.00 and
210 make a 100% profit.' The problem is that the MARGINAL cost (the cost to make
211 'just one more') widget is indeed $1.00, but the AVERAGE cost is $101.00.
212 If everyone asked to purchase widgets at close to the MARGINAL cost, then
213 most of the FIXED costs of the widgets would not get paid for at all!
214 So if you think it is fair to merely refund the MARGINAL cost of
215 having 'just another' student attend a school, you are playing games in the
216 worst way. Remember, the teacher's salary is the same no matter how many
217 students are in the class, so you are still trying to charge the private-
218 school student for the cost of public school!
219 I am not surprised that you or anyone would make this mistake. The
220 MARGINAL/AVERAGE cost dualism is a common trap to fall into, especially
221 when someone wants to understate something's cost. Clearly, anyone who
222 wants private school students to ALSO pay for public school will pick up
223 on this instantly.
224 But consider this mistake as an example of something that SOUNDS
225 fair, but really isn't when studied carefully.
226 Lest you think no one else can fall into this trap, about a year ago the
227 ICC (interstate commerce commission) changed the basis for taxes on trucks.
228 You probably don't realize it , but studies indicate that a 50,000 pound
229 truck does about 1000 times as much damage to a road per passage as a
230 5,000 pound car. (a highly non-linear relationship, to say the least!)
231 Before the change, here is how they allocated the costs of the
232 road to cars and trucks: First, the required thickness/quality of road assuming
233 only CARS were on the road was calculated. Then, the required thickness/quality
234 of road assuming BOTH CARS and TRUCKS were on the road was calculated. The
235 difference (which was relatively small compared to the total) was charged to
236 the trucks, and the rest (the majority of the costs) was allocated to the
237 cars!!!! This, even though perhaps 10 times as much damage might have been
238 done by the trucks!
239 The rules were changed to more accurately reflect the amount of damage
240 that each vehicle causes. The truckers complained (Naturally!) because they
241 no longer got a free ride.
242 What happened here? Before, the TRUCKS were being charged the
243 MARGINAL costs for the road, while the CARS were being charged the AVERAGE
244 costs for the road.
245 Who says you can't lie with mathematics?!?
246 ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
247 Ah yes...good point, but also quite obvious.
248 as far as the marginal/average ratio...I think fair would fall somewhere
249 in between. Note that if a manufacturer sold enough of any product, he would
250 eventually get back his initial
251 investment. It is the difference between the average and marginal costs that
252 gives the manufacturer the competitive
253 edge on another company...if there
254 initial overhead (i.e. the production machine) is less than the competitors...
255 this is why larger companies always have the edge when it comes to price,
256 because they can buy a large production machine at a high price, but in the
257 end, it will produce more products at a faster rate which will pay for the
258 initial investment.
259
260 The sysm...
261 ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
262 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
263 RIGHT ON TRUCKS: WRONG ON WIDGETS: THE HIGHWAYS REPAIR COSTS ESCALATE THROUGH
264 USE: IF YOU AVERAGE THE COST OF WIDGETS,THE MORE YOU MSAKE THE CHEAPER THEY GET.
265 THE TROUBLE WITH MOST MANUFATURERS IS THAT THEY KEEP TRYING TO PASS ON THE
266 ORIGINAL INVESTMENT TO THE CONSUMER. THOSE THAT DON'T DO THIS ARE TRULY COM
267 COMPETITVE. FOR AN EXAMPLE MOST OF YOU SHPHOULD BE ABLE TO UNDERSTAND LOOK AT
268 WHAT COMMODORE HAS DONE TO THE COMPUTER MARKET BY CONSTANTLY LOWERING ITS PRICES
269 TEXAS INSTRUMENTS AND AND ATARI ARE ON THE ROPES, AS ARE MOST OF THE OTHER PE
270 PERSONAL COMPUTTER MAKERS. IT USED TO BE THAT THE MORE ONE MADE OF A PRODUCT THE
271 CHEAPER IT GOT. BY MOST CALCULATIONS A NEW CAR SHOULD BE PRACTICALLY FREE! BUT
272 ALAS THERE IS THHAT OLD FACTOR 'GREED' WORKING AWAY. MANAGEMENT WANTS MORE PR
273 PROFITS, LABOR WANT ENOUGH TO BE ABLE TO BUY THE PRODUCTS IT MAKES FOR MANAGEMT
274 ITS A NEVER ENDING CIRCLE, WHERE WILL IT END??
275 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>!<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
279 **********.************************************************
280 Sorry, but you are wrong about the wigit thing yourself. As was
281 stated earlier, you cannot discount the cost of the equipment and
282 people in making a product. Thay are a real factor in the cost.
283 A product does not have an infinate life time, and you cannot just
284 say that you will average the production cost over a million wigets.
285 In fact determining the cost as a result of this is a very critical
286 part of the products birth. It may very well be shelved bacause it
287 would cost too much to produce. Yes, commodor is selling heavily, and
288 while they are not loosing money as badly on their computer as the
289 others are, they are not making it all back. Instead they are relying
290 on the sales of the accesories to make a profit. Since T.I. and
291 Atari Want to continue selling theirs, they have no option but to
292 lose money on theirs by lowering the price below the manuacturing
293 cost as well. In the case of T.I. it is a massive loss.
294 As far as cost of a new car, I don't know where you got your idea
295 that they were cheap to produce. They most deffinately are not.
296 Yes, they may seem cheap if you consider only the cost of the raw
297 materials in it, but that is hardly the only cost involved in
298 producing and selling a car. Case in point the raw materials
299 that make up your body have been calculated to be about $1.00
300 in value. Do you think that it only costs that much to produce
301 and maintain yourself?
302 **************************************************************
303 MIKEY - DON'T GIVE UP BUDDY WE ALL LOVE YA! - NOTE HOWEVER THAT
304 LIVELY DISCUSSIONS DO NOT THRIVE ON MEASURED RESPONSES - AS ALL
305 COLUMNISTS AND TALK SHOW HOSTS KNOW - I THINK THE SAME PRINCIPLES
306 APPLY TO THIS FORUM. THE CANDOR AND VIGOR OF THE PARTICIPANTS IS
307 WHAT MAKES THIS (I AGREE) THE BEST BBS GOING. CENSORSHIP OR EVEN
308 GOOD MANNERS WOULD PROBABLY KILL IT.
309
310 SEQUENTIALLY:
311 PIONEER - THE SNOW IS GOING TO BE USED ON SKI SLOPES - YOU CAN SEE
312 THE SNOW BEING MADE BY THE LITTLE BUGGERS AT APPLIED GENETIC ENGINEERING,
313 A COMPANY IN A CAL BERKELY BUILDING IN OAKLAND MY SISTER-IN-LAW WORKS FOR
314 IN THE GENETIC ENGINEERING LAB.
315 ** MOST PEOPLE WOULD RATHER LIVE TO A RIPE OLD AGE THAN WEAR DESIGNER JEANS
316 AND DIE YOUNG - THE POINT IS TO LIVE ON - MORE EASILY DONE UNDER ANY
317 CONDITIONS WHEN THE BODY IS YOUTHFUL
318 ** TO "DABBLING WITH THE WORK OF GOD", A COUNTERPROPOSAL: RELIGION IS
319 JUST MASS ORGANIZED SCHIZOPHRENIC DELUSION, OFTEN DEADLY IN IT'S EFFECT,
320 CAUSED BY THE FEAR OF DEATH.
321 ** PAM - RIGHT ON - MORE PEOPLE OUGHT TO READ THE HISTORY OF SCIENCE -
322 ALTHOUGH THEIR ARE 'MAD SCIENTIST' MODELS TO CHOSE FROM, I'M AFRAID.
323 CONSIDER THE NAZI DOCTORS AND THEIR 'EXPERIMENTS' ON PRISONERS, OR THE
324 GUYS WHO CREATE NEW NERVE GASSES.
325 ** GREY GOAST I AGREE COMPLETELY, PEOPLE WHO HAVE A LIFE TO LOOK FORWARD
326 TO MIGHT BE MORE CAREFUL.
327 GOOD IDEA ELBERITCH IS BEING DONE NOW
328 ** PAUL HOW ABOUT GROWING TRANSPLANTS FROM OUR OWN TISSUE - YOU HAVE TO
329 UNDERSTAND GENETIC CONTROLS OVER THE PROCESS OF DIFFERENTIATION OF CELLS TO
330 MAKE THIS OLD SCI-FI IDEA A REALITY.
331 ** DAVE THIS IS PART OF THE PROCESS OF ARRIVING AT A CONSENSUS FOR SOCIETY
332 ON THESE TOPICS
333 ** PAM RIGHT ON AGAIN HOPE YOU DON'T TIRE OF BEING THE VOICE OF REASON
334 ** SORRRY - PRESUMABLY YOU'RE READY TO ENLIGHTEN ME ON THE EXACT CONTEXT
335 THE PHRASE "OLD SON/SUN" AROSE IN - TO BAD YOU DON'T LIKE MY SPELLING -
336 I'LL HIRE A SCHOOLMARM TO PROOFREAD MY TEXT.
337 ** RECESSIVE GENES/DOMINANT GENES ARE NOT A SIMPLE ON OFF KIND OF THING
338 SEVERAL GENES FOR EYE COLOR OR OTHER TRAITS CAN BE EXPRESSED AT THE SAME TIME
339 AND SO CAN JUST ONE RECESSIVE GENE BE EXPRESSED - 1 GENE SICKLE CELL CASES
340 DO HAVE SYPTOMS - THOSE ARE THE ONES THAT LIVE, I BELIEVE.
341 ** BAD THOSE ARE THE SAME LITTLE BEGGARS THAT ARE TO MAKE SNOW FOR US
342 TO PLAY IN - ALSO AFFECTED THE TOMATO CROP ADVERSELY
343 ** BAD DOESN'T NEUTERING THE CAT TAKE THE 'TOM' OUT OF HIM? WHY ADD DEPROPRI-
344 VERA OR WERE YOU JOKING
345 ** LEONARD - YOUR RULES OF ORDER WILL HAVE EVERYBODY ASLEEP IN NO TIME -
346 IT'S STIRRING PEOPLE UP THAT WE NEED
347 ** BAD YOU'RE NOT QUITE FAIR TO THE TAX GUY ON THE THIRTY DOLLARS I FEEL -
348
349 WOW WHAT A TUSSLE! I LOVE IT! THEY SHOULD HAVE SAID THAT FOR A PEACEFUL
350 CONVERSATION DON'T EVER DISCUSS POLITICS, RELIGION, - OR THE LATEST
351 TECHNOLOGY. HAVING THE TIME OF MY LIFE, YOU'RE ALL GREAT, AND THANKS!
352
353 CHUCK
354 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
355 Just thought of another, simply marvelous example of the diffence between
356 marginal costs and average costs: The local movie theatre. Hasn't it
357 ever occurred to you that all those empty seats could be filled for
358 almost nothing? After all, the only cost might be a slightly higher air-
359 conditioning bill in summer (possibly offset by a lower heating bill in
360 winter) and the slight amount of extra wear and tear on the seats, carpets,
361 and so on. Perhaps an extra 25 cents or so, max. But try to tell the
362 theatre owner that he should let you in for 50 cents. Go on, try it!
363 No, you can't even begin to ignore fixed costs in the calculation.
364 If you were in business you'd soon learn that.
365 ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
366 THE EXAMPLE IS NOT PURE BECAUSE OF THE CUT THAT THE MOVIE DISTRIBUTION
367 COMPANY WANTS - SOMETIMES A FIXED AMOUNT PER TICKET LIKE .50 OR $3.00
368 AND SOMETIMES OTHER ARRANGEMENTS. THATS WHY THE THEATER IS SO OFTEN
369 FULL WHEN OLDIES ARE SHOWN - THE FILM RENTAL IS PER NIGHT OR PER WEEK.
370 WHEN IT'S PER WEEK (TIME DEPENDENT - FIXED COST) THE THEATER MANAGER
371 CAN LOWER THE PRICES AND DOES, TO FILL THE THEATER. GO TO THE THEATERS
372 IN N.W. PORTLAND(WHERE THE HIPPIES GO) AND SEE. WHEN DEALING WITH NEWER
373 MOVIES YOU GET INTO YOUR HIGH RENTS BUT ALSO PER-TICKET COSTS (SALES
374 VOLUME DEPENDENT VARIABLES - MARGINALS) AND YOU GET EMPTY THEATERS.
375
376 SPEAKING OF MOVIES, IS ANYONE ELSE HERE A FLASHDANCE FAN. WOULD YOU
377 COMPARE IT TO THE TURNING POINT?
378 CHUCK
379 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^?????????????????????????????????????????????????
380 ***************************************************************
381 Hamfair/Computer Show
382 Aug 27 from 9 to 6 , Aug 28 from 9 to 3 At MT. Hood Community
383 College Gym. There will be comerical displays and swap tables
384 Admission is $2.00 ,12 and under free.Swap tables $5.00
385 For more information call Bob at 771-xxxx
386 Hi Art If you nead help getting that L-pad made up for your
387 radio let me know. Soldering iron will travel.
388 OFF
389 ........................................
390 Actually, neither the fixed nor the marginal costs are what determine if
391 producing a product is profitable; the TOTAL cost does. If a widget costs
392 100,000 fixed and $1 marginal, the cost depends very much on how many can
393 be sold. If only 1,000 then they cost $101, but if by reducing the cost
394 (not to the marginal, but to somewhere in between) you can increase the sales,
395 then a price of, say, $50 might make a profit by more than doubling sales.
396 For a student on school, the marginal cost is very low compared to the fixed
397 costs, and the Irate Taxpayer specificly asked to be refunded THE MONEY SAVE
398 BY NOT HAVING HIS CHILD IN PUBLIC SCHOOL. That is marginal cost.
399 I don't complain about other's spelling, except in jest: mine is as bad
400 as any. The Elitist vs mongrel arguement isn't mine.
401 A neutered tom cat often continues with the bad habits he learned when he
402 was whole, like spraying to mark his territory, so it is often helpful to give
403 him some Depo-provira to stop this, after which he probably will never think
404 of it again. Sex isn't all hormones, a lot of it is learned.
405 As to sickle cell, the heterzygous sickler has other symptoms, too:
406 poorer oxygen transfer, for example (they are said to only show problems
407 at high altitudes) and lower resistance to certain diseases; but malaria
408 is more important than either of these, so in
409 Africa it is selected for, not against. Something that kills in 50 years
410 has no effect on natural selection, that's too late, the children are already
411 born. We now are concerned with this, though, since we can and do live longer.
412 /////////////////BAD\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
413 Where come you, and where now do you go, traveler?
414 I go adventuring..... He told of lands seen, battles won, daring done..
415 Draining the last of his mug of ale, he shifted the cat and offered to the
416 young listeners "Is there any of you who would go adventuring with me?
417 He will see all that I have spoeken of, and more. Win battles, see strange
418 places, stranger people, meet danger. But be warned: he who goes adventuring
419 wit me will never come home again.
420 Never?
421 Ahh, never. Those that have tried found that even when they return to the
422 same spot on the map, it isn't home anymore. The Inn is replaced with
423 a McDonalds and a Motel 6. Come adventuring with me only if you dare.
424 .....
425 Would you??
426 ...............................
427 Actually, the public-school funding issue is even worse than it appears. It
428 is usually funded by property tax, which is a function of how much land/house
429 a person owns, and not how many children he has to be put through school.
430 Why shouldn't the charge be directly based on number of children,
431 since that is the factor determining the cost? I'll answer my own question:
432 the way the current voting system is set up, it is in the interest of the
433 people without a lot of land to force those with land/property to pay
434 for the education of their children. While this may be immoral, it nevertheless
435 happened.
436 There are very few taxes which are designed to charge people for
437 the measure of services they receive; this fact alone demonstrates that most
438 people view government as a way of living off someone else.
439 The Irate Taxpayer may have asked for the return of the savings that
440 a school district had when his kid didn't attend, but this wasn't enough:
441 A full refund of all taxes he paid for school is the only acceptable answer.
442 =========((((((((())))))))===========(((((((((()))))))))============
443 To you just above (may I call you 'Colorful Dasher'?), I suggest your observance
444 of the voting system also note the other powerful force involved: those whose
445 livelihood and power are dependent upon a continued flow of public monies for
446 them to spend and/or earn. They may well play a larger, more detestable role
447 in the public-sector financing ploy!
448 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dave ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
449
450 ** MAD I DIDN'T THINK IT WAS YOU I MUST HAVE GOOFED UP MY MESSAGE.
451 ** ABOUT SCHOOLS, MAYBE WE CAN AGREE ON A COUPLE OF PREMISES?
452 1) THAT ALL CHILDREN SHOULD HAVE AS GOOD AN EDUCATION AS THEY CAN GET
453 SINCE IT'S GOOD FOR THE COUNTRY AND SINCE THEY'RE NOT RESPONSIBLE
454 FOR THEIR PARENTS FINANCES.
455 2) THEIR IS A MINIMUM GROUP OF CHILDREN WHO WILL HAVE TO BE PAID FOR BY
456 THE PUBLIC - THOSE WHOSE PARENTS JUST PLAIN HAVE NO MONEY AND ARE NOT
457 EXPECTED TO GET ANY, SUCH AS PARENTS WHO ARE PARALYSED, ALCOHOLIC,
458 THEMSELVES ILLITERATE, CRAZY, INCARCERATED IN PRISON, DEAD, ETC.
459 THERE WILL ALWAYS BE SOME SUCH GROUP, ITS JUST A QUESTION OF WHERE
460 YOU DRAW THE LINE.
461 3) THE BETTER-OFF WILL BE EXPECTED TO PAY MORE - YOU CAN ONLY GET MONEY
462 FROM SOMEONE WHO HAS MONEY
463 4) THERE SHOULD BE SOME PENALTY FOR HAVING TOO MANY CHILDREN - BE FAIR
464 ABOUT THIS - THIS IS NOT THE SAME ISSUE AS WHO PAYS FOR SCHOOLS
465 5) THERE IS NOTHING HOLY ABOUT MAKING SOMEONE WHO EARNS 40,000 A YEAR
466 PAY FIVE TIMES THE TAXES THAT SOMEONE EARNING 20,000 A YEAR PAYS
467 6) THAT THE PROPERTY TAX AS A METHOD OF RAISING FUNDS FOR SCHOOLS IS
468 VERY DUBIOUS - IT REACHES WIDOWS AS WELL AS RICH PEOPLE - AND THAT
469 A BETTER WAY OF FUNDING THESE THINGS COULD PERHAPS BE FOUND.
470
471 WE ALL KNOW THAT THE REVOLUTION THAT STARTED THIS COUNTRY WAS A TAX REVOLT
472 TO A LARGE EXTENT. THATS ONE REASON IT WAS LEAD BY SOME OF THE RICHEST
473 PEOPLE AROUND IN THOSE DAYS. LIOBERALS BELIEVE THAT CAPITALISTS WILL
474 CONSENT TO STAY IN BUSINESS AND THUS MAKE THE SYSTEM WORK AT ANY TAX
475 LEVEL YOU IMPOSE ON THEM. THIS IS DEMONSTRABLY NOT TRUE.
476
477 AT THE SAME TIME REMEMBER THAT THOSE SAME FOUNDING FATHERS SET IMMEDIATELY
478 ABOUT THE PROCESS OF RAISING MONEY FOR THE GOVERNMENT - EVEN THESE GUYS KNEW
479 YOU HAD TO HAVE SOME TAXES.
480
481 THE ORIGINAL SYSTEM FOR FUNDING THE SCHOOLS WAS THAT 1/36TH OF THE LAND
482 WAS GIVEN TO THE SCHOOLS! THE INCOME DERIVED FROM IT WAS TO BE USED TO
483 HIRE TEACHERS, BUILD COLLEGES, ETC. THIS WAS JEFFERSONS IDEA. IT ALMOST
484 TOOK NO TIME AT ALL FOR CORRUPT POLITICIANS AND BSUINESSMEN TO STEAL
485 ALL OF THIS LAND. AS ADAM SMITH, THE FATHER OF CAPITALISM SAID, YOU
486 CAN'T PUT TWO BUSINESSMEN TOGETHER FOR FIVE MINUTES WITHOUT A PLAN FOR
487 DREFRAUDING THE PUBLIC BEING BORN. BECAUSE OF THIS SORT
488 OF RIPOFF IS SO PREVALENT, I BELIEVE THAT BUSINESS SHOULD PAY SOMEWHAT MORE
489 IN TAXES BECAUSE OF THE HIGH OVERHEAD THAT THIS CHURLISH CONDUCT
490 SOMETIMES IMPOSES ON US. THE IDEA THAT THE POOR ARE THE ONLY ONES WHO
491 TAKE MORE FROM SOCIETY THAN THEY GIVE BACK IS NOT ALWAYS TRUE.
492 CHUCK
493 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
494 P.S. THEY BEHAVE THAT WAY BECAUSE THEY ARE IN A GOOD POSITION TO DO SOME
495 RIPPING OFF, BETTER THAN AN EMPLOYEE WOULD HAVE. PEOPLE WHO HAVE THEIR
496 PRINCIPLES TESTED MORE OFTEN FAIL MORE OFTEN. YES, I AM A BUSINESSMAN.
497 BUT I BELIEVE THAT BUSINESSMEN/WOMEN LEFT ON THEIR OWN TO PAY NO TAXES
498 AND DO AS THEY WOULD CAN EASILY WRECK A COUNTRY. WITH A FEW EXCEPTIONS
499 LIKE CONTROL DATA, BUSINESSMEN USUALLY PUT THEIR MONEY WHERE THE BOTTOM
500 LINE TELLS THEM TO. OFTENTIMES THIS IS OVERSEAS. LATELY, IT IS OFTEN
501 INTO ROBOTS INTENDED TO DISPLACE WORKERS, NOT TO EMPLOY THEM. THE IDEA
502 THAT LESS TAXES ON BUSINESS AUTOMATICALLY RESULTS IN MORE JOBS IS REDICULOUS
503 AS MOST BUSINESSMEN CONCENTRATE QUITE HARD ON HOW TO GET A JOB DONE
504 WITH THE LEAST AMOUNT SPENT IN WAGES. THIS POLICY RESULTS IN GREATER
505 EFFICIENCY AT PRODUCING MATERIAL WEALTH, BUT TO NO AVAIL IF THE
506 PEOPLE ARE AT SAME TIME SHUT OUT FROM CONSUMING THAT SAME WEALTH. TRAINING
507 AND RETRAINING PROGRAMS ARE UNCERTAINTIES FOR BUSINESSMEN WHO USUALLY
508 PREFER THE GOVERNMENT TO PRODUCE WORKERS FOR THEM (LIKE AT PCC).
509 THUS THE GOVERNMENT RESPONSIBILITY FOR EDUCATION IS LIKELY TO EXPAND
510 AS THE PACE OF CHANGE CONTINUES TO OUTSTRIP OUR ABILITY TO RESPOND TO IT
511 WITHOUT THE MASSIVE EMPLOYMENT DISPLACEMENTS WE ARE BEGGINNING TO SEE.
512 EVEN HONG KONG AND SINGAPORE, THOSE SHOWCASES OF CAPITALISM
513 RECOGNISED THIS AND HAVE PUT MUCH MORE EMPHASIS ON GOOD GOVERNMENT
514 SUPPORTED JOB TRAINING THAN WE HAVE. WE ARE FIFTY YEARS BEHIND IN THIS
515 REGARD AND IT WILL TAKE MORE TAXES NOT LESS TO OVERCOME THE GAP. AT THE
516 SAME TIME OUR ANTIQUATED SYSTEM OF SCHOOLS SUPPORTED BY PROPERTY TAXES
517 CAN NOT POSSIBLY MESH WITH A MODERN SYSTEM FOR ADULT EDUCATION LIKE THIS-
518 SUCH A SYSTEM NEEDS TO BE NATIONAL IN SCOPE.
519 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
520 *************************************************
521 Be carefull you don't fall into the old trap of 'we'll just sell
522 more to the money.' The market of a pvoduct has a very difinately
523 limited lifespan. Don't believe me? Take a look at an industry
524 very close to our hearts, the computer industry. A computer that
525 is introduced has an expected market life of about 2 to 4 years.
526 (Yew, Apple managed to stretch it to 6 years, but if you pay
527 attention to the information flow going on, you would know that
528 they are now experiencing sales problems. The look-alikes and
529 IBM's are taking over the sales.) A more flambouyant
530 representation is the Osborne computer. Here we have an exact
531 application of what you have suggested; Spread the startup cost
532 over a very long time. Yes, he did get massive sales out of it.
533 The problem? He waited too long to behring his new machine to the
534 market in trying to recover the cost of producing the original
535 computer, and so the market has become flooded with better
536 machines. The result, Osborne is in desperate financial trouble.
537 I notice a referance to Comadore selling cheap computers as being
538 the proper way of selling a product. I guess you don't remember
539 when the VIC-20 was selling for $300 when they were recovering the
540 startup costs do you? Now you can get it for well under $100. What
541 changed? they are still being produced at the same factories. So
542 it certainly isn't because of that. What it is, is that they found
543 that they had a larger volume then originally expected, so they
544 decided to drop the price to amortize the startup over a longer
545 period of time. Thus it dropped to $200. But you say, it is
546 selling for under $100 today what happened? Well, what happened is
547 two things. First the startup cost has payed for it self. Second,
548 Comador decided to use it as a loss leader. If you don't under
549 stand the term, it means that you no longer price a product to
550 make money on it, but rather price it to get volume sales. Ths
551 usually results in losses in regard to that particular product,
552 but you gain name recognition and market penitration. Thus the
553 term 'loss leader'. (You loose money, but you have #1 position in
554 the market.) This is a form of advertising in case you didn't know
555 it.
556 As well as market life, you also have market size to contend with.
557 That is there are only so many out there who will buy your widget
558 no matter what price you put it at. Don't beleive me? Tell you
559 what I'll do, I'll sell you a Telex machine at half my cost,
560 because I have to get them out of my stock only $750. What, you
561 don't want one? But its a fabulous buy. OK, how about an Xray
562 machine for 10 cents on the dollar, only $2000. Well?
563 Of course there are many other things to consider when setting a
564 price as well, such as how will you handle warranty claims, after
565 market service. What about advertising and distribution? How will
566 you package the item? What support services will you provide if
567 any? It is hardly a simple 'cost to make it' decision in
568 determining the price to put on a product.
569 Another aspect that nobody has touched on is where does the money
570 come from to create these products? We hear about how certain
571 portions of sales goes towards R&D, but what about when the
572 product is ready to go, where does the money come from to build
573 the factory? There certainly isn't enough from sales of previous
574 products in most cases, so where does it come from? Well, it is
575 quit simple, just like when you make a major purchase (like a car
576 or a home) they borrow it. This means that it has to be payed off
577 from sales of the product. It also means that there is a time
578 limit on when it must be repayed. The time can be stretched, but
579 the longer ustretch it, the more it costs both in real interest
580 and in payments.
581 Now we come into an interesting problem, what if no one will lend
582 you the money? This happens a lot, particularly with small
583 businesses since they are not as able to prove that they will be
584 able to repay the loan. So what do you do? You find a backer, or
585 what is nowadays called a 'venture capitalist'. So what does a
586 venture capitalist do? (By the way, a venture capitalist is seldom
587 a single person, but rather a group that brings money together for
588 the purpose of pvding capital to specific business ventures.) A
589 venture capitalist provides money to high risk businesses so that
590 they can produce their product. Since most of these are startup
591 businesses, the risk involved is extremly high. (Only one out of
592 every 100 people asking for funding get it.) So what does the
593 venture capitalist get in return for providing the money? Simple,
594 a part of the business. And don't expect him to go crawl back into
595 his hole after providing the money either. Remember that he
596 expects a return on that money, and a very good return to (normal
597 expectation is 10 to 1) because of the very high risk involved.
598 Failures are still high, even with preweeding by the venture
599 capitalist (around 5 to 1). Because of this the good venture
600 capitalist becomes a very real part of the business helping it
601 thru the rough spots, and to put it in a position to make him his
602 money that he expects. And what does the venture capitalist do
603 with the money that he makes? It goes right back into the capital
604 fund for the next business that needs it.
605 By the way, as a side benifit to all this, for every business that
606 makes it, there are that many more jobs created. This is hardly a
607 proposition created to keep money from the people. If anything, it
608 is just the oposite by providing needed jobs.
609 **** CISTOP MIKEY (YES, I AM A BUSINESSMAN TOO) **** 21 AUG 83 ****
610 P.S. CHUCK:
611 I would disagree with your observation about the bottom hine being
612 wholy wage depenant. The idea of business is to produce the
613 product at minimum cost period. Wages are a significant part of
614 that yes, but there are many other aspects to that bottom line as
615 well. While I do agree with you that we desperatly need a much
616 improved jobs retraining program, I also think we should continue
617 to maintain the advancement of our factories. The steel companies
618 dragged their feet and look where it got them. There were far more
619 jobs lost as a result of not maintaining the lastest in factory
620 processing then there would have been if they had maintained the
621 lastest in techinlogical processes. I feel it is critical that we
622 stay abreast of technology if we are to survive in the world today.
623 I noticed that you didn't mention West Germany where this problem is not
624 only recognized, but the businesses are activly supporting the jobs
625 retraining programs. Why? They have to get the workers for their new
626 factories from somewhere! As far as automation putting people out of work,
627 yes, unfortunatly it is a result of that, but I might point out that
628 history has always proven that even more jobs are created in the end
629 as a result. It is the temporary situation inbetween we must deal with.