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NUMBER OF LINES: 629
1 If you are in need of help, you need but ask....
2 ************************* REMOVED: 25 MAR 83 ***********************
3 Welcome to BWMS (BackWater Message System) Mike Day System operator
4 ************************************************************
5 GENERAL DISCLAIMER: BWMS IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INFORMATION PLACED ON
6 THIS SYSTEM.
7 BWMS was created as an electronic bill board. BWMS is a privatly owned
8 and operated system which is currently open for use by the general public.
9 No restrictions are placed on the use of the system.
10 It is intended that the system be normally used for messages and
11 advertisments by the users. As the system is privatly owned, I retain the
13 to me. Additionally because of the limited size of the system, it will be
14 periodically purged of older messages. (only 629 lines of data can be saved)
15 The saved information will be cycled to drive 'B' while the information on
16 drive 'B' will be archived, and a fresh disk will be installed in drive 'A'.
17 To leave a message, type 'ENTER' and use ctrl/C or break to get out
18 of the enter mode. The message is automaticly stored.
19 If after entering the message you find you made a mistake,
20 use the replace command to replace the line.
21 To exit from the system, type 'OFF' then hang up.
22 Type 'HELP' to see other commands that are available on the system.
23 ========================================
24
25 This disk is empty, to see the old disk type "Control-C" followed by
26 "db" and you get the 'B' drive. Or fill this poor empty space up!
27 the Phantom Glitch.
28 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%3%17%83%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
29 TO: the Phantom Glitch
30 FROM: DEAD DRIVE
31 Thanks for the info: What do you know about Percom? I haven't heard anything
32 good. I think I might spring for double density Rana's.
33 ...............................................3/17/83........17:29:00........
34 TO P.G. SUBJ: DISK ERRORS
35 WELL, THIS IS THE DISK THAT WAS GIVING ME THOSE ERRORS. LETS HOPE IT WAS
36 JUST A BAD FORMAT AND NOT THE DISK.
37 ******* CISTOP MIKEY **** 17 MAR 83 ******************************
71 Hello-----------Open response ` March 18,1983
73 I'm glad people are not alseep out there. A small comment of ideas got
74 a response from many.That's what the boards are all about and itw's
75 great that someone can share. ...>....n.................................
76 THANK YOU mmMIKEY.
77
78
79 I had a vision when I was in the 4th.grade that computers(Main frame&
80 vacumm tubes)where going somewhere but had no interest til I "GREW-UP"
81 Will time went by and as the system changed,I grew and learned the it
82 was not perfect as none of US are or the soft/hardware we might be run-
83 ning at any given time.If it doesn't perform the functions you need-you
84 replace it or repair it. I haven't lost faith in the system-just the way
85 it's being run and I'm not willing to take a back seat,I'm getting invol
86 ved on a personal basis to help correct the problems so it works. The
87 original comment was not to indorse/condemn any union,government,company
88 or military structure. It was to state my feelings and seek response
89 from any one out there who was concerned in any way. The guy in Detroit
90 who makes $10.00 or more a hour screwing on rear-view mirrors was used
91 as a example-Is he worth $10.00 a hour???? ??????????What does it cost
92 him and/or his family to live-at what level of comfort should he/ live
93 at-what amount of medical or dental care should his family recieve com-
94 pared to their president that makes in excess of 200.000 a year with the
95 best benifits a human being can find on this planet. What is good for
96 one is good for all.Should there be a equitable life for one or all???
97 -CShall we have a system that gives to one group and takes from another
98 or should we all share in the benifits with equal responsibility??????
99 unions where created to deal with a problem that still exsists today-
100 Workers having a say as to what the working conditions that they will be
101 working under,their health relationship,hours and pay.None of these thing
102 will effect any company or there profits in they are concerned about the
104 workers`and welfare. Unde 104
105 welfare of their workers. The unions need change just as any system but
106 they sure arn't the sorce of the problems we see.They need tha participa-
107 of members to vwork. That is basic statement of the comment-People need
108 to get involved now>Stamping out apathy will make everyones voice
109 louder and the actions and results for firm.Living in Siberia would be
110 like living anywhere else but under another system,as anyone can see-that
111 system is not exceptable to the people living under it and many are
112 speaking out in words and actions as the rest of the world is.It is
113 obvious that something global is not working,it's time for change.We
114 should not let language,culture or political systems divide the human
115 factor
116 ONE OF TWO......THE OJ KID.....
117 ****************************************************************
118 AMIGO-MONDAY is changing its name and moving:
119
120 AMIGO-SUNDAY will be Online
121 SUNDAY Mar.20 for 24hrs
122 652-xxxx
123 *****************************************************************
124 TO LEONARD ERICKSON:
125
126 THE FIRST PATCH WORKED JUST FINE (THE ONE THAT PRINTS FULL ERROR CODES)
127 BUT THE ONE THAT DISABLES PASSWORDS DIDN'T WORK.
128 FIRST OF ALL, THERE ISN'T A 'EDB0' IN LOCATION '4FB7', THERE IS A '2A4C' THERE.
129 I TRIED PATCHING THIS AREA WITH 0000, BUT THIS DIDN'T DISABLE THE pASSwORDS
130 I ALSO TRIED OTHER LOCATIONS THAT CONTAINED AN 'EDB0', BUT AGAIN HAD NO SUCCESS.
131
132
133 WHAT NEXT?
134
135 THE SYSM...
136 ********************************************************************************
137
138 What do you think you are accomplishing by starting conversation
139 with such political colorings....... Do you like competition ?
140 Is it good for the people ?
141 SHOULD YOUR CHILD THINK HE IS BETTER BECAUSE HE CAN DO SOMETHING BETTER
142 THAT ANOTHER ?
143 ^CAPTAIN BOB^
144
145
146 THE PIONT OF WHAT HAS BEEN SAID AND WHAT I WANT TO SAY HAS NOTHING TO DO
147 WITH COMPETITION-IT'S AWARENESS-WE AS A GLOBAL FAMILY ARE IN A WORLD OF
148 SHIT AND THE REASON FOR MY COMMENTS WHERE TO SEE WHO IS AWAKE OUT THEIR
149 AND POSSIBLY SHARE SOME IDEAS ABOUT THE PROBLEM.YOU WOULD BE SURPRIZED AT
150 WHAT HAPPENS WHEN PEOPLE START TALKING AND INTERACTING WITH EACH OTHER,
151 LET ALONE COUNTRIES.
152
153 SWATERGATE WAS A GOOD EXAMPLE OF CLOSED POLICY AND ATTITUDE AND RELATESVES
154 VERY WELL TO MANIFEST DESTINY-SOMEONE TOLD THE PEOPLE WHO SETTLED THIS
155 COUNTRY THAT IS WAS A GOD GIVEN RIGHT TO SLAUGHTER THE PEOPLE ALREADY
156 LIVING HERE.THE US GOVERNMENT CAN 99(US)CAN TAKE NO BLAME BUT THE ATTITUDE
157 AND BELIEFS BEHIND THE ACTIONS.THE FRENCH AND AMERICANS DIDN'T GET
158 BOOTED OUT OF VIETNOM BECAUSE THE PEOPLE THERE DIDN'T LIKE THE TASTE
159 OF COORS BEER-THEY DIDN'T NEED THE HELP. CONCERNING TAXES AND DILUTED
160 SLAVERY, RING TRUE BUT WE END UP AT HOME BASE AGAIN.WE THE PEOPLE
161 NEED TO PARTICIPATE AND DECIDE/DICTATE HOW THE RESOURCES(TAXES ETC)
162 SHALL BE USED.. THE STATEMENT ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIRE DEPARTMENTS IS A GOOD
163 EXAMPLE OF WHAT HAPPENS WHEN PEOPLE(THE HUMAM FACTOR) COME TOGETHER
164 WITH A GOAL AND COMMON NEED.WHO ARE THE LEECHES IN OUR SOCIETY??????????
165 HOW DOES A WELL-OFF MINORITY COME ABOUT?????????WHEN YOU DEAL WITH THE
166 NEED OF ANY SYSTEM AND IT'S COMPONENTS I.E.,FOOD,SHELTER,POLICE,FIRE
167 PROTECTION,HEALTH ECT...YOU COME TO THE PARTICIPATION OF PEOPLE ON
168 A EQUAL BASIS.THE IDEA IF YOU HAVE A LARGE LABOR POOL-YOUV'E GOT CHEAP
169 (SLAVE)LABOR BUT WHAT IF THEY DON'T PUT THOSE PEOPLE TO WORK IN A
170 SYSTEM THAT REQUIRES RESOURES??????PROVERTY BREEDS QUOTE"CRIME".I SEE
171 VERY FEW PEOPLE OUT THERE IN THE WORLD THAT WANT TO SIT ON THEIR ASS
172 GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY TO PARTICIPATE AND BENIFIT FROM THE SYSTEM ON A
173 EQUAL BASIS. YOU CAN TROW YOUR SOCIAL PROGRAMS OUT THE WINDOW.GO TO THE
174 SORCE OF THE PROBLEM AND YOU WILL SEE THE ANSWER.THOSE WHO HAVE NOT LIVED
175 LONG ENOUGH TO HAVE EXPERIENCED BEING WITHOUT DON'T KNOW-THIS WAS A STATE-
176 MENT THAT WAS PICKED OFF THE BOARD.YES ' I MAY BE YOUNG BUT ISURE DO
177 REMMEBER AND KNOW WHAT IT WAS LIKE TO GO WITHOUT. I'M STILL HERE BUT I
178 LEARNED A LOT WITHOUT EXCEPTING THE STATEMENTS THAT"THIS IS THE WAY IT IS
179 SO EXCEPT IT" I REFUSE BECAUSE I KNOW THINGS CAN AND WILL BE DIFFERENT.
180
181 I WANT TO SAY THANK YOU FOR GIVING ME THE SPACE TO EXPRESS MYSELF-THE
182 WHOLE POINT WAS TO GET A RESPONSE AND SOME IDEAS.IT'S BETTER THAN LETTING
183 THE NEXT GUY DO IT FOR YOU. THE O.J. KID
184
185
186 P.S.-SUPPORT YOUR BOARD
187
188
189
190 .............................................................................
191 Volunteer fire departments work, sort of, in rural areas where things
192 are simple, but in the city we need experts, and that means full time experts.
193 Not providing fire protection to those who don't pay works in rural areas,
194 but when the building next to yours is burning down, and it's close (all
195 buildings in a city are), you can't let ti burn, it will take you with it.
196 As to crime; I see someone thinks that people will not commit crimes
197 if they can get it by working. Sounds great, but it just isn't true. The
198 educated, well adjusted middle class may be this way, but not everybody
199 is well adjusted, and it is usually easier to steal than to earn. Education
200 may be the answer, but again it costs money. The religious schools are
201 not much use to most Americans, since they aren't religious.
202 we live in a world of diversity, with many different kinds of people,
203 including rippoffs, so we do need protection. If we were all the same
204 we would all be safe, but it would sure be dull.
205 If we all pay each for what he needs, what happens to the handicapped?
206 If they can't pay, do they starve? What happens when you are out of work
207 for just long enough to run out of money? Starve?? Or steal?
208 If we have no government, then anyone who is bigger is in charge.
209 The mob works this way. Anarchy is cheap, but it only works when there
210 is no competition. (in other words, not in this world)
211 We do not live by competition. unrestricted competition means the
212 bigger company has total control, because it has morte money. We are
213 able to afford some competition because we work together. Perhaps
214 this is called socialism, but we might ask why the Japanese are taking
215 over. In America it is the unions against the companies, against the
216 government, with the crooks taking pot shots where they can. In Japan,
217 all work together. (More than here, anyway. It's enough.)
218 Now, for the question about taxes [again]: the way to reduce taxes
219 is to reduce the expenditures of government, not the other way around.
220 I would propose that we are now at the stage where we can actally have
221 democracy, instead of the republic we now have. The technology that
222 allows me to get money at 1 am with only a bank card and a memorized
223 password could easiily be included with the telephone and the data
224 terminal I am now using to allow every body to vote on each issue,and
225 I suspect that this would reduce the pork barrel a lot.
226 I would also propose one other change in the current laws: make
227 each government worker or politician responsible for his actions.
228 For example, if the police break into someones house illegally and find
229 him breaking the law, he goes scott free ( and so do the police)
230 This is wrong. A criminal should be punished however he is caught.
231 The police who broke in should be punished for breaking and entering,
232 just like you or I would be. Politicians should be held responsible
233 for their campaign claims, and punished for not doing them.
234 Again, no government is good for the lawbreaker, but the rest of us
235 need it. This means we have to pay for it (pay taxes), and that we who
236 supposedly are the government, the people, must also run it, or at least
237 let the politicos we elect know haw we want it to be run.
238 =========================================B.A.D.==3-18-83==2240===============
239 In regard to the statement I made about the volunter rural fire departments
240 please note that I had perfaced the triad with the disclaimer that each
241 community should be allowed to setup its services to fit its own needs.
242 Yes a large city does need a more sophisticated fire department, and
243 other peoples property is easily jepordized thru anothers problems.
244 But this does not mean that all communitiesmust follow the example of
245 the largest or most problem prone community as the federal government
246 would have. Each community should be allowed to setup its services as
247 is best suitble for their needs, and not as some beaurocrate in Wash dc
248 thinks it should be. By the way for any who are interested the going
249 rate for nonsubscription fire service in Grants Pass, OR is $150 per hour
250 per fire truck plus $10 per hour per fire fighter. While not what you
251 would call cheap, I would consider that to be a reasonable price for the
252 service.
253 .............................................................
254 agreed, in fact what is often forgotten about government supplied services
255 is that you will pay for them no matter if the government is suppling the
256 service or the private sector is. The difference is that when the government
257 does it is a monopoly based service and as such the quality of that service
258 does not have to be at any great level. If however it is provided from the
259 private sector, the quality must be up there or compition will step in and
260 take the business away. In the Grants Pass fire service mentioned above this
261 is exactly what happened. The original fire dept was doing very badly so
262 a new company came in and provided better service.
263 ...........................................................
264 **************************************************************************
265 G O O D FOR T H E M !!
266 ******************************.*********************'*************(******
267 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
268 Oh, sorry. I haven't been on the system lately and I was wondering if I
269 missed anything too terribly wonderful. The reason I haven't been on here
270 is because me and my wonderful QX-10 took a trip into the world of
271 debugging lengthy pascal programs. Please tell me what has been happening.
272
273 So long and thanks for all the fish
274 Arthur Dent
275
276
277 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
278 To: The SYSM
279 I goofed! I have a list of patches and I either read the wrong
280 line or got parts of two lines mixed! The CORRECT patch is:
281
282 PATCH *2 (ADD=4ED4,FIND=20,CHG=18)
283
284 The other patch is to aid in file recovery (if you have a disk
285 zap program), it stops TRSDOS from clearing the directory entry
286 when you kill a file. Just the hash index table entry gets cleared!
287 In case you're interested that patch is:
288
289 PATCH *3 (ADD=4FB7,FIND=EDB0,CHG=00)
290
291 Note: I haven't ever used this patch, so no guarantees!!
292 ...............................................................
293 In regards to the political debate:
294 1. Do not confuse "legal" with "moral" (and don't confuse either
295 with "just"). In spite of what the Constitution seems to say
296 to you, what matters is what the Supreme Court thinks. Thus,
297 income tax IS legal.
298 2. The constitution (in its ORIGINAL, UNAMENEDED version)
299 contains provision for taxes. The tax in question is a HEAD
300 tax. In other words, divide the national budget by the pop-
301 ulation and that is how much tax you owe (for EACH MEMBER of
302 your household!). NO exemptions. Last time I tried to figure
303 out what it would come to (if it was still used) I got
304 figures that were unreal >$5000 per person. Don't use the
305 Constitution in arguments about taxes, we're better off now!
306 3. Some people have mentioned Siberia. I suggest that they read
307 an essay titled: THE TRUE HORROR OF SOVIET INTERNAL EXILE
308 FROM DISSENT TO DOCILITY. This essay is in a book called the
309 Survival of Freedom, edited by Jerry Pournelle & John F. Carr
310 This book contains a number of essays and stories dealing
311 with freedom & related issues. I think that all of the
312 participants in these discussions would benefit from reading
313 this book. A wide variety of viewpoints are covered, I doubt
314 that ANYONE will not be able to find something to agree with
315 (and LOTS to think about!).
316 ----------------------------------------------------------------
317
318
319 IN REGARD TO THIS ONGOING POLITICAL PHILOSOPHISING.........
320 QUESTION????.....#1
321 is it the responsibility of the residents of a country
322 to suport without question, the rules and laws of that country
323 regardless of how just these laws are?
324 ......#2
325 How much power should the heads of any state be legally
326 endowed with to carry out their jobs. AND, who should be required to
327 carry the finacial burden , ie.(salaries,expense acounts, and operating
328 funds).
329 .......#3
330 is or is it not the responsibility of the people any nation
331 to fight social and political injustices especialy when the ones
332 suffering injustice, suffer at the hand of the government they support
333 .......#4
334 WHEN,OH WHEN WILL SOMEONE BE ABLE TO RATIONALY EXPLAIN WHY THE
335 KILLING OF A HUMAN LIFE IS ONLY JUSTIFIED WHEN DONE IN THE NAME
336 OF "FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY" YET IN PEACE-TIME,IT IS CALLED "MURDER"
337
338 DOES THIS STIR UP ANY DEBATE???????????
339 I HOPE SO
340 sincerely... SPAM THE HERETIC
341 off
342 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
343 In the USA we describe our government as being by the people, but in
344 other places other terms are used. Neither is correct, all governments
345 run on power and tradition. It is theorectically possible for anyone in
346 the USA to reach any position, but in practice, this is not true.
347 Now for the question: Is this good or bad?
348 The positions of power in any government, and especilly a powerful
349 one like the USA, are very critical and dangerous; we need good people
350 there. Most of us couldn't do the job. (Sorry about that, but it is true.)
351 Those in power control who gets there next. It requires enormous amounts
352 of money to be elected to even rather low level positions, and a good
353 understanding of advertizing. When you are there, the job is now to do
354 what is needed to stay there, as well as the supposed duties of the position.
355 This is a very good filter to eliminate the less capable, and it also cuts
356 most of out even if we are capable. In other words, the USA is ruled by
357 politicians, but the govvernment is run by the gov workers. Inertia
358 prevents fast changes. You really don't have much say in the running of
359 things unless you become political, so an outsider who wants to change
360 things must first become what he is trying to eliminate. This is called
361 stability, and I think it is a good thing. In Russia, the same thing
362 applies, even though the form of government is different.
363 AS to must we obey the government, even if it is wrong, is sticky.
364 Who decides it is wrong? Who defines wrong?
365 I have not heard any real mention of freedoms here. Is this because
366 they are so taken for granted they are ignored? Same for rights.
367 Rights and freedoms are not something we get by being humans, they are
368 bought, with sweat, blood, and tears (sorry about the paraphrase). And
369 then we give these away to anyone who we want to. Society decides which
370 ones it will allow, and how much, and each one of us can take these and
371 will be be punished for taking more. However, they are not free; they
372 must be paid for.
373 Freedom to worship: requires that 'worship' is of a kind acceptable
374 e.g. sacrificing babies is not allowed, even if your religion demands it.
375 It also implies freedom to assemble in large groups, which requires
376 enough social stablity that this isn't the start of a rior or worse.
377 Freedom from fear: requires the restrictions of other's freedoms.
378 Freedom from want: this is the basis of socialism; it requires some
379 means to distribute wealth (food, etc) to those who need it, and this
380 implies the taking from those who have it.
381 There are a lot of others, but we choose which ones we will allow
382 in some way, some official (statutes and laws), most unoffial.
383 Now comes the question:who decides, and how. In the USA we vote for
384 politicians who decide, in some countries power is taken by force,
385 elsewhere it is hereditary. There is no evidence any of these is better
386 in the long run, but I like our system. Changing methods involves civil
387 war to do it quickly, and we can't afford this. During the change law
388 and order breaks down, and opportunists jump in (e.g. the Reds in Russia)
389 We have chosen to expect certain things from our society, and our society
390 woking together is called '
391 'government'. It provides certain services, and therefore has a price.
392 We have decided to pay this price by taxes, but how the taxes are paid,
393 and by whom is variable. Oregon is now considering a new tax, sales tax.
394 Is this a "good" tax? Or is taxing industry better? What are the side
395 effects? (Such as a business moving to somewhere that has lower business
396 taxes because it has sales tax) Who will decide, and how?
397 Oh, don't tell me, tell your congressman, or your state representative,
398 only he can do much about it.
399 And don't complain about taxes until you stop using the benefits of
400 society they pay for, like the ability to buy food shipped over public
401 roads, the freedom to leave your home unguarded, because we have police,
402 etc. It could be paid for differently, but it isn't.
403 Governments are often not too efficient, but don't expect private
404 businesses to do what we now have governments do, they will only do what
405 is safe and immediately profitable. UPS is cheaper from Portland to SF,
406 but don't expect it to ever cover rural areas, it simply isn't profitable.
407 Competition will bring down the price, if there is profits to be made,
408 but seldom better the quality., Free ncompetition also implies Atari firing
409 most of its American workers, and moving to Japan. Whatever is cheaper.
410 With the end of government regulation your phone bill is going up.(Maybe
411 double.)
412 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++
413 To Spam
414 Your question 1 is not one question, but 2: a must we obey, b can we
415 question? The answer to these have shaped our government into 3 parts,
416 with executive watched over by the courts, but the answer to both is "yes."
417 Question 2 ask about the power of 'heads of goverment', but does not
418 separate heads from the rest, and here it depends on the situation.
419 As to who pays, we do because we benefit.
420 Question 3 ask should we fight injustice, but what is injustice?
421 And how do you have in mind? In a democracy whatever the majority decides
422 is right, in our system we assign powers to certain people by a variety
423 of means, with a variety of checks on how he uses or abuses it. If he
424 hurts someone doing his job is this injustice? Please note that moral
425 and legal are not in any way related, and we can really only require
426 legal. If you want more than that get the laws changed. If you mean
427 things like discrimination, you are talking about cutting down on individual
428 freedom.
429 question 4 murder: In a violent world it is necessary to defend yourself.
430 It is necessary to defend your family and friends. And when the only
431 method of defense is war, it is needed. This violence is seldom needed in
432 "peacetime" and almost never between individuals. But why are you excited
433 about murder? Dead people don't suffer, and we all die sometime. Have you
434 killed someone? More to the point is killing someone with a gun worse
435 than running over someone with a car, or how about the engineer who
436 designed or the worker who built a highway intersection that fools people
437 into doing things that kill them? Is selling cigarettes (medical studies
438 say they cause more premature deaths than anything else in society) murder?
439 Is putting someone out of his misery murder? How about denying medical care
440 to someone who can't pay? (Should doctors have more charity because they
441 can?)
442 I beleive we should pay more attention to mutilation than to murder,
443 a mangled person hurts. Our lack of medical care does this, our hiways
444 injure millions, we allow cigarettes, we act as if the house fire caused
445 by carelessnes is an unpreventable "accident". Is this injustice, or
446 simply the hazards of living? Is executing a criminal murder, or should
447 we turn him loose to try again?
448 ===============================B.A.D.===1722===3-20-83============
449
450
451
458 break
467 should i be asked to pay the bill for something i feel is injust~
468 ...............................................................
469 Though this be "heresy": Hereditary rule has a number of points
470 in its favor that few other systems do. The main "advantage"
471 is that you know who is going to be running things early so
472 you can train him or her for the job. I admit that historically
473 that isn't how it was done but it could be. Unfortunately you
474 have no guarantee that your future ruler will be capable of
475 handling the job!
476
477 As for not wanting to pay for things that you feel are unjust,
478 well you have several alternatives:
479 1. try to get things changed (vote, lobby, etc)
480 2. move (don't make comments about "love it or leave it"! In some
481 countries you CAN'T leave! In the US you can leave unless
482 you're wanted by the police or something.<you can leave anyway
483 ask anyone who moved to Canada to avoid the draft. Try THAT
484 in the USSR!>)
485 3. Don't pay! True, you'll probably go to jail but if you'll let
486 that stop you.... (Remember Thoreau, Gandhi, and others have
487 gone to jail for their beliefs. Are YOU better than them?)
488 4. As to being FORCED to pay: "You cannot enslave a free man -
489 the most you can do is kill him." I'm not sure who said it,
490 but it is a fairly valid point. In the words of a song from
491 the Nazi concentration camps "My thoughts are free". As I
492 said above, you CHOOSE to pay rather than face the consequence
493 of not paying. They can take your money, but they can't make
494 you give it to them! In 1775(?) Americans were "forced" to pay
495 a tax on tea, weren't they...remember a party held in Boston
496 harbor?
497 F - I W
498 (Freedom - I Won't)
499 ...............................................................
500 BRING BACK THE VAL-GALS !!!!!!!!!!
501 0+0+0+0+0++0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+
502 (WHERE ARE THEY, NOW THAT WE NEED THEM ??)
503
504 THEY MADE MORE SENSE THAN THE GIBBERISH THAT I JUST READ.- MASTER BLASTER.
505
506
507
508 ***************************************************************************
509
510 NUKE RUSSIA AND THAT WILL BE THAT
511
512
513 S.T.
514 HOW THE HELL ARE YOU??
515 ****************************************************************
516 *******************************************************************
517 ************************************************************************
518
519 Just who are all the people that rattle on in all the
520 abbove ..... I can not really describe what one would call
521 what the writers of all the above could bbbe called.
522
523 Short sighted, near sighted, undistinguished rattlings
524 of individuals that possibily could be of a varity
525 closer to that of a .....clod. a lump..a empty headed
526 zero... that most any person tcould out think in a
527 sealed paper bag....
528
529 now all you speach writers out there keep it up..
530 Mike must just love it or he would trash the crap...
531
532 ***************************************************************
533 ******************************************************************
534 ****************************************************************
535 ACTUALLY I DON'T REALLY CARE ONE WAY OR THE OTHER. I DO HOWEVER
536 FIND IT INTERESTING THAT THERE WOULD BE SUCH INTENSE FEELINGS IN
537 THESE THINGS, BUT THEN THAT IS THE WAY THINGS ARE I SUPPOSE.
538 IF YOU REALLY WANT TO KNOW MY FEELINGS IN THIS NOTE THAT I VOTED
539 FOR REAGAN NOT BECAUSE I AGREE WHOLELY TO HIS IDEAS, BUT RATHER
540 BECAUSE I WOULD RATHER SEE A BUFFOON WHO IS AT LEAST RUNNING THINGS
541 EVEN IF THEY ARE NOT WHOLELY TO MY LIKEING OVER ONE WHO CANN'T EVEN
542 TIE HIS OWN SHOELACES WITHOUT FALLING ON HIS FACE.
543 ***** CISTOP MIKE WITH A POLITICAL WHIMSY **** 21 MAR 83 *****
544 =====================================================================
545 There's nothing wrong with strong feelings when they mark an commitment
546 to a search for truth. Those who deride discussions like the ones above
547 as gibberish do nothing but confess their fear of a realm in which they
548 know they can only flounder helplessly. Here's a few comments on some
549 of the above...
550 (1) The issue isn't whether we think people will get things by
551 production rather than stealing. The question is do we form together
552 into a society that based on principles (i.e. man's nature) that are
553 rational. Just because we can look out and observe a statistical
554 profile that would lead us to believe men would steal rather than
555 produce does't mean we have discovered an essential characteristic of
556 man's nature. Man does have free will. A view of man (and a system
557 based on it) that presupposes a built-in tendency to evil is wrong,
558 in my opinion. Not only does it contradict the fact of free will, it
559 is blatently malevolent. Those who ask us to accept a system (eg
560 socialism, communisism, and other forms of government statism) that is
561 based on a view of their fellow man (read us) as being vicious and
562 evil should be regarded as suspect. I think the great majority of
563 people are honest, productive people and if given a system that didn't
564 stand in their way, would grow more in the benevolent direction than
565 the brutish direction. In other words, man is neither good nor evil by
566 nature. A system that assumes either is dangerously in error. Many of
567 the pro-government statments above explicitly state this malevolent
568 view toward man. If you think your fellow man is inherently evil then
569 speak first for yourself!
570 (2) Who decides what is right and wrong? Everyone and anyone. Who
571 decides whether rocks fall up or down? Who deicdes whether the sun or
572 the earth is the center of the solar system? The argument that society
573 decides what is right and wrong is pure bullshit. Who is society? If
574 society decides that the earth is flat or that they can rightfully steal
575 from you that doen't make it right. Issues of truth (be they in politics
576 or science) are settled by the application of reasoned thought. Not by
577 vote or prayer.
578 (3) Rights are conditions of existence required by man's nature
579 for his proper survival (Ayn Rand). Governments, by their vary nature,
580 violate the rights of man thru their monopolistic initiation of force
581 throughout a given territory. This is "mob rule" and a far worse
582 kind of "chaos" than the simple and healthy operation of a free market.
583 You don't go out and take a public pole to decide whether we should all
584 run our cars on milk. Neither should we accept governments (and their
585 taxation) because an ignorant majority votes to impose them upon us.
586 =================TANSTAAFL=========22MAR83===0125=====================
587 It's nice to know we are liked, as someone up above does.
588 In answer to the claims made in the last message:
589 3) it is easy to claim rights are essential human truths, etc, but if
590 this were true, all peoples would have and claim the same rights.
591 They don't.
592 2)who decides? In physics, truths are found& nobody decides (maybe God does)
593 in social systems right and wrong are relative, and somebody or group
594 decides what is ,more important or allowed.
595 1) good and evil: Even if 99% of the people are good, and will always do
596 what is right, there is still enough left that don't that we still need
597 police. In any case, it is not at all apparent that we are inherently good.
598 Even worse, good depends on where you sit.
599
600 A case in point. Should we pay publicly for drug research? The drug
601 companies will make a profit on anything we find, so let them do the
602 research. But look at DMSO: it's cheap, readliy available and unpatentable.
603 No drug company will pay for testing and proving if it is safe, effective,
604 causes cancer, etc., and no one else has the money to do so. Again, look
605 at research into aging, and its prevention. Who wants to pay for this?
606 Certainly not the drug industry, success here would cut into there profits.
607 Not the insurance companies. Public supported? Remember all medical
608 research lesds to profits for the drug and medical industries.
609 The drug companies, like all other companies are out to make a profit,
610 so they will work on drugs for common diseases, that can be sold at high
611 prices to many people. What hapens if you get a rare disease?
612 Is it unjust to spend public money on a very few, or is it unjust to
613 tell them "so sorry"?
614
615 Society is people working together. This means, among other things, we must
616 all be going the same direction, and therefore we need something that says
617 which way to go. This is called government.
618 Society also implies both an increase in freedoms and rights (several
619 people can do more than 1 can) and also a decrease in rights (if two
620 people want the same banana, and there is only one banana, who gets it?)
621 Split the banana works for 2, but how about if 200 want it? I am in favor
622 of individual rights, but there is always a point where public rights
623 are more important, and it is NOT EVER easy to decide where this point is.
624 Away from this very fine line, it gets easier, but everyone has a different
625 idea as to just where to make the break.
626 ========================================B.A.D.===========3-22-83
627 ====================================================================
628 (1) People possess rights whether they claim them or not. Rights are
629 ============ NO ROOOM LEFT ON THIS SIDE, WILL TRY AGAIN ON OTHER SIDE====